Season 8 King’s Landing Filming SPOILERS & Game of Thrones Cast Tours Seville!

Cast Seville Season 8

The big Game of Thrones news this week was the arrival in Seville of most of the cast for the Dragonpit scenes, though they may have been there for other reasons as well. There are a few new arrivals, including one we have been expecting for a while. This focus in Spain doesn’t mean the home front has been abandoned, however: season eight is still being filmed in Belfast … and major things are happening. Beware: spoilers below!

Before moving on to Éire, let’s catch up with Spain, where the cast hasn’t shied away from the cameras. Just as they did before in 2016, the entire cast and the showrunners attended a football (“soccer”) match in Seville. The home team won, for those who care.


Moreover, a few actors we didn’t mention in our first report have been sighted in Seville. To review, or for those who missed it, a few days ago we saw Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster Waldau (already gone!), Sophie Turner, Maisie Williams, Isaac Hempstead Wright, Liam Cunningham, Joe Dempsie, Gwendoline Christie, Conleth Hill, the unexpected Faceless Men Tom Wlaschiha and Faye Marsay, and the Night King himself Vladimir Furdik. Since then, a few other cast members have been recognized by multiple sources: Iain Glen; Lino Facioli, Lord of the Vale; and the Mad Queen, Lena Headey:



Moving on: yesterday our sources confirmed shooting is still going on in the Paint Hall sets, and today A Red Priestess shows there have been major developments outside too, at the King’s Landing set. Compare the wall as it looked recently to how it looks now:

This is how the King's Landing set looked before today. Photo: Eric Deering

This is how the King’s Landing set looked before today. Photo: Eric Deering

Notice the hole between the towers; and the demolished towers themselves. Photo: A Red Priestess

Notice the hole between the towers; and the demolished towers themselves. Photo: A Red Priestess

The city gate has been oblitared and the towers that once protected it have fallen. Though the breach of King’s Landing is a spoiler, it is not unexpected for those who followed the first months of this set’s construction. The gate was constructed first as if to appear breached, and then covered with an intact wall and an actual gate.

Though the gate was built modularly, the towers required some additional work, as they were always built to look intact. Now there is nothing left but rubble from the wooden platforms where we speculated the scorpions would be placed (either on set or in post-production), and the towers themselves have suffered heavy damage too. Also, you may notice that it’s it’s not just the horizontal Lannister flags that are gone now, but also the vertical Lannister banners that once adorned the walls. Here, take a closer look:

The wall has been breached! Photo: A Red Priestess

The wall has been breached! Photo: A Red Priestess

The towers are in shambles. Photo: A Red Priestess

The towers are in shambles. Photo: A Red Priestess

On the front of the wall, there are no banners anymore. Photo: A Red Priestess

There are no Lannister banners hanging on the towers anymore. Photo: A Red Priestess

The Red Keep gate has also been stripped of its banners. Photo: A Red Priestess

The Red Keep gate has also been stripped of its banners. Photo: A Red Priestess

We always knew King’s Landing would fall at some point in the shoot … and now it has! This means all the scenes featuring the city walls before they fall in battle have already been shot. Since an entire city street was built here, it stands to reason that much of the conflict will take place inside the city, once the gate is breached, so don’t dispair: there’re probably many days of King’s Landing filming left—we may see something yet!

204 responses

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    1. Eonwe:
      The Red Keep walls appears intact. No damage can be seen.

      Correct!

      If they are now going to shoot a part of the sequence in which the outer walls have been breached and they are fighting on the streets, presumably trying to reach the Red Keep, the part of the keep they built should be intact for now. Or maybe they never reach it. Or maybe they just break open the gate without damaging the building. Who knows. We’ll have to wait and see! 🙂

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    2. Luka Nieto,

      What I mean is that the keep doesn´t appear to have received much damage but it doesn´t have lions banners. Was it taken whithout much fight? Some trickery using Maegor´s secret passages? The garrison turning against Cersei and opening the gates instead of dying for her?

      Edit: Saw your post where you talk about the taking of the Keep via trickery. Nevermind.

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    3. Luka Nieto,

      One million people live in King´s Landing. For the NK more recruits for his army. For Daenerys it could be the cost to take the Throne.

      Edit: Let´s not forget Jon Snow riding Rhaegal. What would make him use a dragon against a city?

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    4. Obliterated by what I wonder? Those ruins don’t like like they’ve been torched by dragons.

      Very interesting that Lena is in Seville. So I’m wondering if this means she won’t go Mad Queen after all?

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    5. Ëonwë,

      I do kind of expect the Red Keep to get hit eventually due to Dany’s vision of snow/ash falling through the broken ceiling. Or I wonder if that ends up being more symbolic than literal..?

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    6. Apollo: Obliterated by what I wonder? Those ruins don’t like like they’ve been torched by dragons.

      I imagine dragon fire and dragon claws with all the weight of those beasts, personally.

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    7. Luka Nieto,

      The fact that the banners are gone makes me think its Dany and Jon’s forces that have taken the city.

      I can’t see the Nk bothering to take down banners as he takes the city. And them all falling in the attack seems convenient.

      But who knows. Curious to see who.

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    8. I wonder if the Faceless Man is coming back into the show or if they were invited as part of a wrap party…or are D&D just trolling us?

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    9. House Monty,

      You may be right, but the flags could have been burned down as part of the attack, not taken down intentionally. The flags would naturally be snuffed out by any dragon that can demolish those platforms, obliterate the gate, and leave the towers with that kind of damage. Viserion could do that, too 😉

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    10. Is the man on the left in the photo at the top of this article the actor that plays Qhono?

      Also how long they have been shooting at the pre-breach King’s Landing set?

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    11. No Kit and Emilia is a rather interesting thing at this point, no? Especially with Lena and Ian Glen now spotted. There’s not many scenarios I can think of where all these major characters can congregate in one place without the two of them, if nothing significant has happened to either of them.

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    12. Luka Nieto,

      Even the ones on the Red Keep gate?

      It was really the one taken down on that gate with it still looking in tact that made me think it was concious.

      But yes totally possible even that one fell in battle.

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    13. So this destruction was done/filmed yesterday while so many of the cast wasn’t there? That’s a little odd isn’t it? Although, there are some that aren’t accounted for at all or over the last couple of days or longer. It doesn’t make much sense, but if it were the GC though we probably wouldn’t notice that. I suppose the platforms could have been destroyed by trechuchets… and there doesn’t appear to be any scorch marking. I say it doesn’t make sense because why would they attack from the outside when they’d have the ability to overthrow from inside? That is unless they cross Cersei while they’re away from KL… Interesting stuff.

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    14. Clob: So this destruction was done/filmed yesterday while so many of the cast wasn’t there? That’s a little odd isn’t it?

      As you can clearly see in the photos, the crew is still working on the set destruction, so they haven’t filmed that phase yet.

      Clob: and there doesn’t appear to be any scorch marking.

      It’s not finished yet. There may be scorch markings in the future.

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    15. Port:
      I just wish the final season was playing on my tv right now, this wait is killing me 🙁

      Savor the anticipation! When the show’s final season is done, it’s done forever.

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    16. Luka Nieto,

      I think it’ll be the latter… there’s no evidence of scorched wood or melted stone, similar to the ruined gate. Those walls will be smashed by something.

      Edit: Of course the scorch marks can be added later, but not the melted stone effect.

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    17. orange:
      No Kit and Emilia is a rather interesting thing at this point, no? Especially with Lena and Ian Glen now spotted. There’s not many scenarios I can think of where all these major characters can congregate in one place without the two of them, if nothing significant has happened to either of them.

      Kit has been seen in Belfast. He is part of whatever is going on there at the KL sets. And they could have filmed Emilia’s scenes on dragon earlier. No idea if there are any other actors/characters – Hound, Greyworm etc. with Jon. We did see some unsullied/Dothraki on these sets so it’s possible Greyworm is involved.

      Would it not be funny if Jon on Rhaegal razed the Red Keep after telling Dany not to do it last season!

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    18. Luka Nieto,

      I see. I’m on my phone right now so I just looked at the little pictures. I was just assuming intact and destroyed walls would all happen during battle filming and that you were saying they’re finished with that.

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    19. Eh,now Daenerys’s vision from s2 make sence. We’ve seen her entering the throne room of Kings Landing and the roof is completely destoyed so snow all around the room. And if there is still snow then it could only mean that Night King isn’t dead and winter isn’t ended. So i guess there are no happy end for this story( At least for Danny).

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    20. Ten Bears,

      Look at Daenerys’s vision from s2 where she entered the throne room and it’s completely destroyed and snow all around iron throne so it’s mean that no one gonna win this throne and there probably no winners at all.

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    21. Luka Nieto,

      Hey Luka! How’s life?

      (I’ve been largely avoiding “spoilers,” but as this stuff is completely in line with what I’ve expected, I’m not feeling spoiled…..)

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    22. arya_fan: Still wondering why the Hound is not with the rest of the cast yet. Where is he?!

      Ah, well, I’ll leak the big spoiler: Sansa breaks his back on their wedding night, and he wasn’t able to escape Winterfell as a result…..

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    23. My prediction: Dany lives, Jon lives. Jon will use himself as a ruse to lure Cercei out of KL towards the dragonpit. Dany has another destination: KL, she will breach KL with almost no damage and no casualties. Clegane bowl after that.

      It’s not really Jon or Dany’s style, being sneaky. But Sansa learned a lot how things work, we can assume she will give them a sneaky plan (a la Cercei)

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    24. kevin1989,

      A victory too easy and cheap. That´s not George style. War of the Five Kings, Robert´s Rebellion, Blackfyre Rebellion, Dance of Dragons… There must be losses, sacrifice and a final act that taints that victory.

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    25. i can’t wait for the final episode of the final season for just one reason: no more “Cleganebowl” will pollute the internet after that. i mean wtf did i just read? dany opens the gate and then CB?

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    26. Ëonwë:
      kevin1989,

      A victory too easy and cheap. That´s not George style. War of the Five Kings, Robert´s Rebellion, Blackfyre Rebellion, Dance of Dragons… There must be losses, sacrifice and a final act that taints that victory.

      Not if the NK is on their tale. But I think it’s strange that Emilia isn’t in Seville, but there seems to be some action going on at the gates of KL. Maybe the battle is before the gates.

      death by chickenfire:
      i can’t wait for the final episode of the final season for just one reason: no more “Cleganebowl” will pollute the internet after that. i mean wtf did i just read? dany opens the gate and then CB?

      Then we can finally say: The Cleganebowl was amazing. We know the Clegane bowl is happening, Sandor made it very clear in episode 7×07 to his brother. He is coming for him, and the mountain knows it.

      I just hope it’s worth the wait, and not some cheap scene where one of the 2 wins in 30 seconds.

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    27. Ëonwë:
      kevin1989,

      A victory too easy and cheap. That´s not George style. War of the Five Kings, Robert´s Rebellion, Blackfyre Rebellion, Dance of Dragons… There must be losses, sacrifice and a final act that taints that victory.

      (Can mods edit this in my previous post)

      And George himself always choose the easier victories. It’s D&D that always choose to show the action. BW and WotW were in the books like they were, but look at the take over of Mereen is much more action packed in the show than the books. Dorne was more Action packed in the show than the books, we can assume the battle of winterfell (6×09) will be different in the books and less action packed.

      And the way I see it, it can be very eventful. We see everybody come together at the counsil, but not Dany. Cercei becomes impatient, the audience wonder, where is she. We see a scene (a la take over of Yunkaii or Casterly Rock) where Dany takes over the city, small skirmish battle with the Unsulied and Dothraki and the remaining GC and Lannisters. One flees beforehand and warns Cercei, she tries to flee while the Mountain tries to protect her, all hell breaks loose at the meeting. Mountain dies by the hand of Sandor. We found out Cercei expected this, she stored Wildfire in the city. Once Dany uses her dragon, the wildfyre explode. Leading to Dany killing civilians and getting the blame.

      (yes I changed my mind a little haha)

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    28. Don’t forget we saw the Red Keep in ruins and the wildfire being under the city has been referenced so many times in both show and book, it’s very likely it’ll blow the fuck up. We also saw Bran’s vision of a dragon flying above.

      The Mad King’s order will be achieved decades after the fact, used against his family’s enemies. He can finally rest easy.

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    29. BeardedOnion,

      The Red Keep is damaged from above in Dany’s vision, so I don’t think it’ll be wildfire that takes out the Keep.

      Of course it could be wildfire that proves to be humanity’s salvation.

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    30. kevin1989,

      The thing is that George taints victories. The Dance of Dragons ended whith the people rising against Rhaenyra in KL and later betraying her in Dragonstone to Aegon II. Aegon II himself was poisoned by his own men. The first Blackfyre Rebellion ended with Bloddraven killing Daemon Blackfire and his two sons with arrows after he spoted Daemon giving mercy to an injured Kingsguard that he defeated. Kinslaying and treason won that war. Robert´s Rebellion was forever tainted by the Sack of Kingslanding, the treachery of Pycelle and the murders of Elia and her children to pave Robert way to the throne. Stannis victory over Renly was tainted by kinslaying and shadow magic. The Lannister victory against Robb was tainted by the Red Wedding, a violation of the most sacreth oaths. Even Daenerys victories in Essos are tainted (more in the books). The cities she sacked either collapsed, the new goverment was oberthrow by the old regime or she faced internal fights against her.

      In the series we saw the cost of Jon victory. Rickon death and thousands of men led to a slaughter because he was reckless. Daenery victory on the loot battle is tainted by her execution of the Tarlys. An act that unsettled two of her advisors, because her father liked too to execute people with fire (Rickard Stark wasn´t the first).

      And George only finish battles fast when one of the armies uses deceit or trickery to outmaneuver the enemy. When that doesn´t happen we have blood baths like the Battle of Blackwater or the Ruby Ford.

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    31. Seeing Joe and Maisie standing next to each other has my shipper heart beating …… 🙂 At least we know they will share at least one story line.

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    32. debbie:
      Seeing Joeand Maisie standing next to each other has my shipper heart beating ……🙂 At least we know they will share at least one story line.

      Oh, no! Please, no!
      I don’t know that.
      I won’t know that.

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    33. Sergey Khilchenko,

      She may not get the throne as it will be destroyed but if she finds a family with Jon, isn’t that kind of bittersweet? All that loss for something she thought she wanted when really it was a family she wanted. Maybe that’s what her vision of Drogo and her son really meant and not that she was going to die and be reunited with them.

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    34. kathy,

      Not getting the throne but getting a family is not bittersweet, it´s sweet. Thanks to the books we know that Dany deep down wants the house with the red door and the lemon tree. She wants a home. The Iron Throne has proven in the series that is not worth the trouble of taking and keeping it.

      Think of Lord of the Rings. The scars left by his journey made Frodo unable to find peace in the very land he sacrificed for. He leaves Middle Earth and loved ones who can´t follow him to the next journey. The elves too leave Middle Earth and the world is losing forever a part of itself. Good won but the world changed and the true hero couldn´t enjoy his victory.

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    35. kathy,

      I doubt that any bittersweet element will simply be an abstract sense of recrimination, the consequences of which we will never get to see or experience once the show is at an end.

      Dany briefly mourning the secondary characters and unnamed masses that she marched to their deaths in pursuit of the throne, before settling into her happily ever after, wouldn’t really cut it for a show like this.

      I could picture a much more palpable sense of bitterness, conveyed through the deaths of one or both of our apparent heroes or a bitter souring of their own relationship.

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    36. Ëonwë,

      Oh you meant it that way, true can expect that. That’s why I think dany will use her dragon on lannister soldiers in which cercei made sure she will blow up the wildfire. In which she know the people will dispise dany for it.

      kathy,

      For me this will be a happy ending, not bittersweet. For me it doesn’t matter if somebody will end up on the throne or not or it will be destroyed. I care about the human stuff. All happy family with Jon and dany feels for me as a too much of a happy ending. The only way this works is if the cost is the lives of the rest of the starks.

      Jon and Dany both dying and their child will survive is more bittersweet but I hope they don’t go this baby family root. It’s already done too many times with movies. The ending of Harry Potter, lord of the rings, that hunger games story. It all end with daddy mommy and their children.

      I don’t think they are going that route. The closest I think the show can come with baby stuff is that only cercei will have a baby and will be raised as the child of tyrion or Jon and dany (maybe dany can’t still have children)

      And ending season 7 with that happy note of them together. Knowing George d and d, that one is going to get back at us. Look at talisa. It’s too happy to last.

      Apollo,

      And if both live, somethings going to change. One of them turning mad. Having some magic destroy them a la new night king theory. Having one of them turn out like drogo at the end. One of them fleeing to essos. I also have a feeling slavers will take over dragons Bay again which will destroy dany mentally.

      Ëonwë,

      Wasn’t the red door a memory? Wasn’t another character who was having the same dream?

      And about LOTR. Into the west where frodo is going you can say is something like the afterlife. You can say, he died somehow. You can see it with the discription what the west looks like. White shores. The same Gandalf saw when he diedafter fighting the Balrog.
      And even sadder is that Sam has a special bond with frodo. You can see that in real life with people in the military. That bound is extremely strong. When frodo left that left a huge void in Sam. Frodo knew and that’s why he told Sam (by letter) that he must be whole for his family. Sam will emotionally be torn between extremely sad for his friend and extremely happy because of his new family.

      Long story short. If Danny and Jon are going to live happily ever after. Got will be happier than the LOTR at the end. And listening to grrm for years, we can expect something more bitter than LOTR ending.

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    37. Question for mods: where did my comment go, I posted it and it’s gone now. Did I post sometime that I shouldn’t have or something else?

      I see it’s back

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    38. Where’s Euron in all of this??? Could he really meet his end at the hands of Theon away from KL???

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    39. Sergey Khilchenko,

      It’s a lot of ways that Dany’s vision could be interpreted. What if the snow was alluding to the true king Jon “Snow”? In the vision, she walks away from the throne and ventures north of the wall and sees Drogo. Was this saying she would venture north of the wall and die & reunite with him & their child?

      But she walks away from Drogo & Rhaego… So could the vision have meant that if she did go beyond wall she would return and then have kids again? She did go & lost Viserion but maybe on her return she’ll find her new love & baby with Jon (love boat). Or will she sacrifice herself and become the new Night Queen? I really have no idea how to interpret those visions.

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    40. Ëonwë: Think of Lord of the Rings. The scars left by his journey made Frodo unable to find peace in the very land he sacrificed for. He leaves Middle Earth and loved ones who can´t follow him to the next journey. The elves too leave Middle Earth and the world is losing forever a part of itself. Good won but the world changed and the true hero couldn´t enjoy his victor

      Lord of the Rings is an entirely different kind of story than is SoI&F, and thus LotR really is not a good model here. After all, this story has protagonists, not heroes, and the story is in how those protagonists are evolving, not in the heroes upholding moral truths. I would look to one of the Faulkner novels that GRRM so lionizes and which are such obvious influences on this story: the bittersweet is going to be in living with what they did. Robert’s Rebellion probably is the big foreshadowing for the ending: just as Ned did, Jon, Daenerys, etc., are going to have to live with themselves while wondering if there could not have been some other way.

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    41. debbie: Seeing Joe and Maisie standing next to each other has my shipper heart beating …

      Gendry and Arya winding up together was foreshadowed by the very first episode, so we should not be surprised if it happens.

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    42. Aegon the Icedragon:
      Sergey Khilchenko,
      It’s a lot of ways that Dany’s vision could be interpreted. What if the snow was alluding to the true king Jon “Snow”?In the vision, she walks away from the throne and ventures north of the wall and sees Drogo.Was this saying she would venture north of the wall and die & reunite with him & their child?

      But she walks away from Drogo & Rhaego…So could the vision have meant that if she did go beyond wall she would return and then have kids again?She did go & lost Viserion but maybe on her return she’ll find her new love & baby with Jon (love boat).Or will she sacrifice herself and become the new Night Queen?I really have no idea how to interpret those visions.

      The snow could symbolize Jon as the true king, but I’m more inclined to believe it represents that winter will come to King’s Landing. Dany reaching out for the throne but not touching it has always strongly implied that she will not sit on the Iron Throne. Instead she turns north, which we see her do in S7, and goes beyond The Wall.

      Coming upon Drogo and Rhaego in the tent could be foreshadowing for her finding love and a child with Jon when she decides to come to his aid north of The Wall. I also think it represents a kind of temptation for Dany away from her birthright and duty (as she sees it) to rule the 7 kingdoms. She turns away from it of course (you can hear her dragons calling to her faintly in the background, luring her away from the temptation), and pursues her goal to be Queen.

      Furthermore, seeing Rhaego in the tent could be seen as foreshadowing for her losing another child (Viserion) when she goes north of The Wall.

      That’s my reading of her vision anyway.

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    43. Wildfire + Cersei = BOOM!
      You know it’s going to happen.
      All we are debating is the aftermath.

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    44. Aegon the Icedragon,

      You’re quite correct.. these visions could be interpreted any number of ways. I’ve kind of gone with what you’ve interpreted: that Dany will never sit the IT and will die in the North/ during the battle against the WWs to be reunited with her love. Her absence from the Seville scenes strengthens this possibility.

      “a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is … and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time”

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    45. Aegon the Icedragon:
      Where’s Euron in all of this???Could he really meet his end at the hands of Theon away from KL???

      Have to wonder also about Missandei and Grey Worm at this point in the story …
      (Nathalie Emmanuel and Jacob Anderson not seen either) …. as well as Theon and Yara could be off in other locations in the story
      You know last season both the Dothraki and Unsullied showed up at the gates of KL yet only Qhono and a contingent of Dothraki made the Dragonpit scene no Grey Worm or any Unsullied , seemed odd…. never explained.

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    46. Wimsey,

      Well, I think Ëonwë may have a point. GRRM specifically mentions Frodo’s journey in reference to the bittersweet ending he’s after so I believe this is why people talk about Frodo when trying to predict the ending of ASOIAF:

      I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory. Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire—brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: “Why is this here? The story’s over?” But every time I read it I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge.

      Collins, Sean T. “Exclusive: George R.R. Martin Says ‘Game of Thrones’ Ending Will Be ‘Bittersweet’Observer. Observer Media, 11 Aug 2015.

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    47. Well I for one will sleep peacefully tonight knowing our lord and savior Sweetrobin is accounted for. <3

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    48. Kevin1989,

      I had similar problems on the previous thread. Although in my comments I was convinced Lena wouldn’t be showing up in Seville on a Friday, so that was probably for the best 🙈

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    49. Hmmm, it’s curious that Cersei will be present with all those other characters, yet Jon and Dany will not. Unless they are filming multiple scenes at this location. I think I am buying into the theory that the North will fall and our Winterfell crew will flee south ahead of the army of the dead. I can’t think of any other reason why Sansa would come to King’s Landing with Cersei still alive.

      One thing that puzzles me, is why isn’t Jon advising that those who can’t fight (like the old, the very young, the disabled, the pregnant or nursing mothers etc.) to make their way east by ship. We know that in the show-verse the wights don’t swim, so surely those who can’t fight would be better off fleeing to Essos to avoid becoming more meat for the NK’s army?

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    50. Adrianacandle: Well, I think Ëonwë may have a point. GRRM specifically mentions Frodo’s journey in reference to the bittersweet ending he’s after so I believe this is why people talk about Frodo when trying to predict the ending of ASOIAF:

      The fundamental difference in literary types means that how GRRM can achieve a bittersweet tone must be very different. Tolkien could do it the way that he did because the story was centered around plot, not character. (As Tolkien explains in his letters, he hated stories like SoI&F with protagonists and without clearcut themes showing what the author feels “good” and “evil” are.)

      Here, the character is centered around character. So, what is going to be bittersweet to the primary protagonists, i.e., Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya and Bran? This is why I point to Robert’s Rebellion. As we now know, that had a very bittersweet ending for Ned: he had to live a lie and with the memory of having committed dishonorable acts out of ignorance while at the same time permitting lies to flourish that in some cases glorified him and other cases denigrated him in order to protect people. We’ve seen the beast’s footprint: expect another of the same type.

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    51. The Night King will defeat Winterfell and march to King’s Landing, where Cersei will kill him and almost everyone else by blowing up the whole place with wildfire.

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    52. Wimsey,

      FYI: Today at 12:10 pm, I replied to your Comment under the 5/9/18 article (“Updated! Season 8 Spoilers – Even more characters at the Dragonpit confirmed”). My comment was #555, so probably got buried.

      Arguably, I should’ve posted it here…

      Bottom line: Without meaning to suck up… I think you’re right.

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    53. Ten Bears: Bottom line: Without meaning to suck up… I think you’re right.

      I am?!?!?

      Hey, wait: a baboon is at my door, with typed copies of Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, and… cool! Love’s Labour’s Won! I always wanted to read that one.

      Gotta run: they are about to call off the lottery ticket numbers….

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    54. Wimsey,

      I absolutely think your predictions are a possibility, certainly, but I also think Ëonwë’s predictions are possible as well, especially given what GRRM has said. I have no earthly idea how this story is going to end and to be honest, I’m kind of dreading it because I think it will be painful. That said, I do feel that even without those epic battles of good vs. evil, a character being broken by their experiences, unable to live among their loved ones and truly return home, or what they remember as home, this can still occur. Real people themselves experience this as a result of trauma, returning from various experiences (especially war) and find they are permanently scarred by their experiences in spite of being among loved ones and back in their physical homes. For some, they can never really return home again in the sense of finding that same peace they once felt before their experiences. I don’t think the scenario described with Frodo, being broken by his four-year journey and unable to find peace in the home he once loved when he returns from Mt. Doom, would require Tolkien’s set-up.

      I see what you mean about how a bittersweet scenario is entirely dependant on the character in question. I believe it would depend on what they want and I think the characters want multiple things, which creates a constant theme of conflict (ie. Jon’s love for family vs. duty vs. greater good). In my opinion, I think for quite a few of the main characters, there is a longing for a home with a family (Dany) or to return home and/or be reunited with their remaining family (Sansa, Jon, Arya, maybe Bran depending on what his tree-status/mindset is). However, they feel this is impossible for various reasons or feel divided due to other obligations. Nonetheless, in this sense, I think the parallel with Frodo being unable to live among his loved ones and in the home he cherishes and worked so hard to save from annihilation, despite longing to return for his entire journey, is a fair possibility.

      After the tragedy, loss, and destruction in just the books that have been published, none of these characters can truly go home again. They may be able to return to the physical place, but it won’t be what it was before.

      For other characters, I think it would be different because they likely want different things. While Dany dreams her childhood house with the red door and lemon tree and the Stark kids’ yearnings show in their memories and dreams of each other and of Winterfell, it will probably be different for other characters like Tyrion or Theon.

      So you are absolutely right that a bittersweet ending depends entirely on the character. At the same time, I think the parallel to the ending of Frodo’s arc is still relevant for some of the characters.

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    55. The most obvious way to achieve the b-word ending is with the deaths of most of the major characters, followed by the survivors emerging into an entirely new world for which their struggles have left them entirely unprepared. I believe GRRM and D&D have already set this up: the WW and NK are defeated, magic ends, the Wall falls, the Far North thaws (when the CotF created the NK, it was in a lush and green area which has since been covered by ice) and the few survivors have to figure out how to carry on.

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    56. SerNoName:

      ……Would it not be funny if Jon on Rhaegal razed the Red Keep after telling Dany not to do it last season!

      If this was the case, I wonder what would prompt him to do so? Attempt to hasten the end of the war? Having to destroy some experiment of Qyburn’s gone awry (e.g. Qyburn trying to create an army of the dead from KL residents)? Fighting the NK army in KL?

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    57. So. Tomorrow is 14 and Emilia is expected the 15 at Cannes and the 17 at London. There´s no sighting of Natalie Emmanuel and Jacob Anderson, neither is here Kit Harington.

      This is turning interesting.

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    58. Wouldn’t it be bittersweet if the ending isn’t bittersweet?

      I think I’m going to barf if I hear or read “bittersweet” again. And the aftertaste will, of course, be….

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    59. Interesting report by Los Siete Reinos. Local bussiness in Belfast received an e-mail from HBO telling them that the friday would be controlled EXPLOSIONS in the Titanic set. Also they report that the Lannister banners are still hanging on that set.

      They also say that there is a rumor of a posible night shooting in the Dragonpit between Liam and Peter.

      https://lossietereinos.com/novedades-relevantes-rodaje-la-ultima-temporada-juego-tronos-belfast-sevilla/

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    60. Adrianacandle,

      One big thing to keep in mind is how the authors view people, which is (of course) very very different. Although you refer to Frodo’s “arch,” he didn’t have one. “Broken” Frodo at the end was based on how people of Tolkien’s era interpreted people psychologically maimed by WWI. It was, of course, way off: people had no understanding of things like post-traumatic stress, or how psyche’s evolved or responded to events, etc. People like Tolkien rejected most of this, anyway: people didn’t “evolve,” they were what they were born: and if they changed, then it was because they were “broken.”

      Martin has very different ideas about what individual people are like, and ideas that are much more in accordance with modern theory. Now, our modern ideas are (no doubt) “wrong” in that they are not completely correct: but they obviously are much closer to being true than the ideas that 19th century Tories (and Tolkien was basically a holdover from that) held.

      And I think that this is very important for one huge reason: the main characters already have been “broken” and risen from the resultant ashes. Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Sansa, and even lesser protagonists like Jaime, Theon, etc., already have been “broken” in ways comparable to how a modern novelist would “break” Frodo. To my mind, this really highlights the difference between storytelling styles: Tolkien uses breaking a person to emphasize permanent sacrifice at the end of a story; Martin uses breaking people in the middle of arcs to accelerate character evolution. Moreover, whereas Tolkien viewed being “broken” as permanent damming of a river (in keeping with the antiquated theories of human psychology to which he adhered), Martin views being “broken” as a “thousand year flood” that alters the course abruptly, but still keeps the river flowing downhill.

      Finally, we would have to ask this: if Jon being killed then revived, Daenerys surviving an assassination attempt then escaping purgatory, Bran’s crippling then apotheosis, Sansa’s rape and ascension, Arya’s erasure to No-One then rebooting to Xena, etc., do not “Frodo” them, we have to ask: what would?

      And this is why I see a “Frodo” ending as implausible: Martin has already shown us that although he likes bittersweet, he uses “breaking” to very different ends than Tolkien did. Conversely, as Martin shows with Ned Stark, Martin can get “bittersweet” without breaking anybody. The two individuals simply have very different ideas of what “breaking” a person is and how it feeds a story.

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    61. Ëonwë:
      Interesting report by Los Siete Reinos. Local bussiness in Belfast received an e-mail from HBO telling them that the friday would be controlled EXPLOSIONS in the Titanic set. Also they report that the Lannister banners are still hanging on that set.

      They also say that there is a rumor of a posible night shooting in the Dragonpit between Liam and Peter.

      https://lossietereinos.com/novedades-relevantes-rodaje-la-ultima-temporada-juego-tronos-belfast-sevilla/

      Since last Tuesday has there been film production at the ‘dragonpit’ ? All that cast around Sevilla and no mention. Did I miss the notice?

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    62. Wimsey,

      I think, no matter what Tolkien intended, GRRM has described what he loves about the ending of Frodo’s story, why, and how it has influenced him. GRRM has used Frodo’s story as an example he loves to describe a bittersweet ending and says of it, “All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for.” It doesn’t matter what I think or what Tolkien himself intended/accepted/rejected, it matters how GRRM is interpreting this ending and he’s described his interpretation of Frodo’s ending.

      I can’t speak to what kind of person Tolkien was because I didn’t know him and I don’t know how he, personally, interpreted psychology, trauma, or PTSD. If you know of an interview or document that explains how Tolkien viewed this, do you mind sharing that reference? I am really interested.

      But I think Frodo certainly had a story arc and made the sacrifice the moment he left the Shire to go to Mt. Doom. He spent four years suffering, fighting the ring’s temptation, fighting the ring’s influence, fighting those who’d take the ring, and became increasingly alienated due to the ring. He came back heavily impacted and scarred by these experiences. It wasn’t that one act of throwing the ring into the fire that impacted him, it was everything on that journey. He was broken over the course of those four years by these events again and again. Because we are seeing very different things in LoTR and because I can’t speak to the personal viewpoints from Tolkien that you are referencing as I have no basis or source for them, I don’t think we’ll see eye to eye on LoTR.

      I mean, I don’t think Frodo’s choice at the end was about sacrifice, it was about his inability to live with his experiences post-victory and inability to return to the life he once had so he sails away forever to the Grey Havens. Meanwhile, Sam, Merry, Pippin, etc. had to accept his loss and go on with their lives. At least, that’s how GRRM describes it in that quote and that’s how I always saw Frodo’s ending as well.

      Of course, I absolutely 100% agree that the main characters in ASOIAF have already been scarred and have already suffered greatly. I’m not arguing that. The reason I can’t agree that the Frodo ending is implausible is because the idea of it, Tolkien or not, seems a possible result for many of these characters because they may not be able to reconcile their experiences to the whatever world exists by the end of ASOIAF and may be unable to return to life in peacetime (if peacetime is achieved).

      Nonetheless, it doesn’t matter how I interpret this, it matters how GRRM interpreted the end Frodo’s story and how it influences him when he is writing the end of his own story.

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    63. I´ll gonna say it. The Dragonpit is gonna be a funeral and the end of the Iron Throne and Westeros will dissolve back into separate kingdoms. It´s the end of the Targaryen dynasty.

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    64. Wimsey,

      BTW, on a lighter note, I love that we’re having this debate while we’re watching to see what actors arrive for these season 8 Dragonpit scenes – which I’m also really anxious about D:

      Additionally, I wanted to say that I completely respect your viewpoint. We may not agree, but I appreciate you taking the time to explain your views 🙂

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    65. Jay Targ,

      Just saw that too.. if I didn’t know better I’d say it Daniel Portman or possibly Iwan Rheon… possibly just one of the production staff.

      Kit was in Leeds and York as late as yesterday.

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    66. Jay Targ: Here’s another image of that same guy

      https://www.instagram.com/p/BiuyvRxlGum/

      Doesn’t look like Kit to me

      Nor me. The height, build, beard and hairstyle are all wrong. Also, I can’t picture Kit dressed like that, not that I follow him enough off GOT to be able to judge, but he usually seems quite poshly dressed.

      I do wish he would show up though. I don’t want Jon to die. He and Sam are my favourites and though I have to face facts that he and Dany will most likely have to die, I don’t want to!

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    67. Adrianacandle: I can’t speak to what kind of person Tolkien was because I didn’t know him and I don’t know how he, personally, interpreted psychology, trauma, or PTSD. If you know of an interview or document that explains how Tolkien viewed this, do you mind sharing that reference? I am really interested.

      Read “The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien” for Tolkien’s views on literature, the basic sociopolitical issues of his day, teaching at Oxford, etc. He didn’t write about things like trauma or PTSD specifically, but, then, nobody in his time did. Tolkien himself was more sympathetic to “broken” WWI vets than were most people, probably because he was one: the standard interpretation actually was that they were cowards. Almost everything of what we know now about PTSD came after Tolkien’s lifetime: in particular, it was the Vietnam War that led to the really in-depth studies of how wars affect people. As Tolkien died in 1973, he missed those!

      Another good source to read for Tolkien’s views on what stories should be like is his extended essay “On Fairy Stories.” Of course, much of what he wrote is that stories should absolutely not be like SoI&F! It is an interesting defense of the conservative values of the 19th century: but it came long, long after the fight Tolkien was waging had been lost. The upshot is that Tolkien thought that the world had it backwards: siprotagonists

      Tolkien’s biography by Humphrey Carpenter does a really good job of putting Tolkien into a more modern context (although it was written a long time ago now), and it becomes quite clear why Tolkien’s anti-capitalist themes are in his stories (which were confused by the hippies as being pro-socialist when they were pro-aristocracy instead!) and why there are such strong anti-republicanism themes in his stories, too (Tolkien blamed republican France for WWI, not monarchist Germany). Carpenter compiled Letters, too.

      One other thing to keep in mind that although Martin has said that he wants a bittersweet ending like Lord of the Rings, and that he’d rather go to Hobbiton than to heaven (Martin doesn’t believe in such things!), he has panned Tolkien’s ideas about characters and characterizations. To an extent, GRRM takes jabs at Tolkien’s worldview in SoI&F, too: for example, GRRM has characters sardonically note that Kings are judged by how life is under their rule, rather than following Tolkien’s storyline in which having the “right” King causes the Kingdom to flourish. Characters adhering to Tolkien’s toryesque views do not come off in favorable lights, either.

      Adrianacandle: But I think Frodo certainly had a story arc and made the sacrifice the moment he left the Shire to go to Mt. Doom.

      Tolkien himself would have disagreed! Again, he didn’t like the concept of a protagonist: and that’s why Frodo was never developed enough to have an arc. After all, compare Frodo to Jon or Daenerys: we learn very quickly with Jon and Daenerys not just what their childhoods and upbringings were like, but how they felt about them. Martin uses this as the staging point for their subsequent evolution into individuals with “saving people things” (to paraphrase Hermione Granger). How did Frodo feel about losing his parents? About leaving his childhood home? About any of the things that learn about a character with that sort of background in SoI&F? We don’t know: Tolkien never bothered to worry about it, and never considered these things important. Frodo was the son of two well-born hobbits who was adopted by an eccentric but well-born uncle: what more could we possibly need to know? (GRRM is suddenly sighing and shaking his head right now!) And that’s why we cannot trace out a map of how Frodo’s personality changed from beginning to middle to end.

      As it turns out, many people felt “a lot”: and Tolkien got lots of letters asking him these sorts of quesitons, some of which wind up in the book In Tolkien’s letters, he explains that Frodo takes on the task because a good person was: and the Baggins were among the gentry of Hobbits. Moreover, Frodo makes it because he was the perfect “halfling”: a greater person like Aragorn or Gandalf would have been seduced by the Ring before getting to Mt. Doom; a lesser person like Boromir or Samwise would have been overthrown by the Ring before getting to Mt. Doom. Basically, an individual with the Ring was a candle being burned at both ends: and Frodo was that rare individual who had equal amounts of wax on both sides, and enough “greatness” and “commonness” both to get to Mt. Doom just as the candle was burning out on either side.

      What GRRM is doing, on the other hand (and what pretty much every novelist is doing these days) is putting protagonists on arcs so that when they get to the “Mt. Doom” part of the story, some set of experiences has made them the sort of person who can say to the world “This is how I feel about this situation: and this is how I will act!” When the story is told well, then the reader or viewer looks back at what transpired and thinks: “That makes sense” and even “ah… I should have seen it coming!”

      But here is the other important thing to understand: as weird as this sounds, Tolkien genuinely believed that what happened to Frodo should have been obvious to everyone. And, if you were someone who really believed is that all you needed to know about someone was the station of his parents to understand them, it probably was obvious. Outside of dozens and dozens of people at Eton, it really wasn’t! 😀

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    68. Che: I do wish he would show up though. I don’t want Jon to die. He and Sam are my favourites and though I have to face facts that he and Dany will most likely have to die, I don’t want to!

      Protagonists do not die until the climax at the earliest, and rarely ever in this sort of story. After all, the crux of the climax is the protagonist(s) declaring to the world: “This is where I (w) stand: do you agree with me (us)?” Jon has to be there for that, as he is one of the two biggest main characters in the story.

      (Sam, on the other hand, could die before then: but I would tend to bet against that.)

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    69. Che:

      I do wish he would show up though. I don’t want Jon to die. He and Sam are my favourites and though I have to face facts that he and Dany will most likely have to die, I don’t want to!

      I wouldn’t worry about who lives or who dies based on who’s present in Sevilla right now. We’ve got no idea what it is they’re filming there.

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    70. Wimsey,

      Thank for those sources – I’ll check them out.

      Because I haven’t read these myself, I can’t adequately comment with any sort of educated response because I lack that information. I can really only comment on things I have read. I’m aware of the criticisms and praises Martin has of Tolkien’s work and I am making these comments in awareness of Martin’s comments. However, until I do read those sources you cited in which Tolkien talks about this stuff, my views and opinion on Tolkien and his intents are uninformed so I can’t comment either way. My interest is piqued, based on what you said, but I’d need to read these sources for themselves to continue this debate in that area.

      I’m aware that PTSD wasn’t recognized as a condition until much, much later and am aware of some of the historical context re: views on trauma, mental disorders, etc. when LoTR was written. I think I made a misstep in discussing LoTR because I wasn’t trying to comment on Tolkien’s intent as I know I’m not educated on Tolkien as a person, which renders me unable to get into a debate about Tolkien’s views. All I’ve read is Tolkien’s fiction, but I know very little about the man himself. I was really trying to comment on Martin’s view of how Tolkien ended Frodo’s story because that’s something I have read, in addition to his other comments about Tolkien’s work. I’m aware he has criticized various parts of Tolkien’s story (wondering what ‘ruling wisely’ means when Aragorn became king, as you referenced, and Gandalf’s return from the dead) and he’s praised parts of the story (the end of Frodo’s story). And Tolkien or no Tolkien, Frodo or no Frodo, I was commenting on how the concept itself of Frodo’s ending made sense to me as one of many possible conclusions for some of the characters.

      That you disagree is fine and I respect that.

      Truly, I have no way of accurately predicting or knowing what’s going to happen because I’m not in Martin’s brain or aware of exactly how he interprets other material. I can only glean what ‘bittersweet’ means based on his comments and comparisons. However, as far as Tolkien the person goes and his intents, rather than Martin’s interpretation of his work, I can’t comment.

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    71. So I haven’t read any of the leaks or spoilers yet. Can someone tell me if they sound good or if it’s as iffy as the writing in S7?

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    72. Jay Targ: I wouldn’t worry about who lives or who dies based on who’s present in Sevilla right now.We’ve got no idea what it is they’re filming there.

      Very true. I just have it in my head this is some big final scene akin to Aragorn’s coronation that nearly ended ROTK, so to me, Dany and Jon’s absence (so far) isn’t a good indication, but I totally concede to the fact I am most likely overreacting!

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    73. Jonah:
      So I haven’t read any of the leaks or spoilers yet. Can someone tell me if they sound good or if it’s as iffy as the writing in S7?

      Qyburn discovers a way to regrow Theon’s “toy,” Hot Pie is revealed to be Cersei & Robert’s black-haired baby boy, switched at birth; he loses 50 pounds, and defeats Gendry in a bake-off for Arya’s hand in marriage. Drogon roasts a barn full of wight chickens, and Sandor can’t decide whether to bury them or eat them. Varys is indeed a merman. So is Lord Manderly. Baby Sam is a WW double agent. It turns out Arya was cloned from Lyanna Stark’s DNA, so she’s Jon’s genetic mother and biological cousin. Cersei isn’t pregnant: it was a “food baby” after all. NK is about to attack WF, but then stops, turns around, and telepathically tells the AotD: “On second thought, let’s not go to Winterfell. ‘Tis a silly place.” Nymeria chases Robyn Arryn all over the Eyre until Robyn falls out the Moon Door. Jon looks down at Robyn’s splattered remains and praises Nymeria: “Impressive.”

      Seriously: No leaks talk here!!! Please!
      🚱🚱🚱🚱🚱🚱🚱🚱
      If you want to discuss bogus “leaks” or bash “iffy writing”, there are scores of other fan sites for that.

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    74. Colin Armfield,

      Good question, definitely a damage that Viserion could do!

      I spoiled myself with the previous thread because it’s been too long since I read GOT news but this was usually when GoT was in full swing for yrs, so… Anyway, NK actor looks to be south. It is definitely a possibility now. Ugh, I hope he doesn’t get there though. I always imagined the last stand to be in the north where the story began.

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    75. WesternBC:
      The Night King will defeat Winterfell and march to King’s Landing, where Cersei will kill him and almost everyone else by blowing up the whole place with wildfire.

      I think Cersei is the only truly ruthless leader left who could make a choice like blowing up the masses. She is so central to this show that a conflict between her and the NK seems inevitable. And she is a Kingslayer. Roast Boar anyone?

      However, the set photos may not support this theory…

      Also, if NCW has already left it doesn’t bode well for Jamie *sob*

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    76. Enharmony1625,

      Nice! It looks like you got it all figured out. I never thought of interpreting the show vision with show facts now that they come close to the end. Only ever theorized about the book visions. Kudos to you and the person you’re exchanging ideas with Aegon the Icedragon.

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    77. So I haven’t read any of the leaks or spoilers yet. Can someone tell me if they sound good or if it’s as iffy as the writing in S7?

      Well, we do have the leaked episode titles:

      1. The North, Dismembered
      2. Wights Bite at The Neck
      3. It’s Not Looking Good for Our Heroes
      4. Burn Them All
      5. The Scouring of The Show
      6. Bronn and Edd’s Excellent Adventure in Sharing Castle Black

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    78. I could actually see a scenario where all hope is lost for Cersei and she decides to mass murder as many as she can but at the same time indirectly takes out the remaining Wights, White Walkers and Night King. It would make Cersei a beyond evil killer, while also at the same time making her the savior of the rest of mankind. This is the type of strange poeticism I think GRRM would be attracted to.

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    79. Im not liking that a lot of the cast is in seville, like wee wont Lose almost no One at the battle of winterffel.

      Of course Dany and Jon wont die THERE, and whos left to die that was not in seville?

      Podrick?
      The hound?
      Tormund?
      Berick?
      Melissandre?
      Missandei?
      Gilly?
      Edd?
      Other Dragon?
      Ghost or nymeria?
      Lyanna and Other lords as Royce , glove and manderly?

      I Hope Theres a big list of names for that battle.

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    80. Wimsey,

      You and my dad both! ;D

      He’d talk about so many things fantasy and physics-esque but to me, it was in one ear, out the other 😉 He wouldn’t even let my mum in his car while they were dating unless she correctly answered a set of trivia questions on Doctor Who.

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    81. MeeraReed:
      Who are those two hotties with the cast?

      Should be Seville soccer players Jesús Navas (l.) and Pablo Sarabia (r.). And the old guy behind Peter Dinklage is club president Pepe Castro by the way 😉

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    82. Wimsey,

      Hey, thanks for your succint summary of Tolkien’s views on society, literature etc. yesterday ( 13 May 5.48pm). As it happens, I picked up LOTR to reread a few weeks ago as “comfort reading” (something you’ve read many times before and liked, know how the story ends so you don’t have to agonise over it).

      I like the book, it’s a good, rich story and exciting, but Tolkien’s conservatism, toryism, is very apparent, e.g. Frodo, Merry and Pippin are all gentry, Sam’s a happy servant. Not a brother in arms but a servant willing to do anything for his adored master. Very Downton Abbey. Whereas if the ASOIAF books were a TV show, it’d be like HBO’s GOT… Oh, wait…

      Quite off-topic, but I’ve been reading old Finnish “girls’ books” aimed at girls 10 -15 yrs old for a project. It’s been quite shocking and a revelation. There’s a series of 3 books I thought were written in the late 1920s or 1930s and thought the war once referred to was WWI. Even the teenagers used very polite forms of address to their elders, even each other, and the social order went quite unchallenged. There was the urban working-class rabble, which is portrayed as something alien, bad, scary. The protagonists are good (aspiring) middle-class high school girls, and though some are quite poor (the vicar’s widow’s daughter or the honest, hard-working brickie’s daughter who supports her studies by giving private lessons to some of her wealthier but thick schoolmates), the wealthier, even semi-aristocratic girls are nice and fair. Except the noveau-riche social climbers, who are snobby and mean. The rural poor are of course happy servants and tenant farmers very attached to their benevolent master and all his family.

      Imagine my shock when I realised those books were written after WWII, in the early- to mid-1950s! They read so different than another very popular (to this day) series of 4 books from 1955 to 1960, in which the protagonist girls aren’t self-righteous little prigs (or if they are, it’s portrayed as a fault), girls are horrible to their new stepmother, she isn’t perfect either, the girls think about boys, do stupid things, do naughty things like go on motorbike rides and enjoy it. (In the other series motorbikes were only ever mentioned as those horrible, noisy things, signs of depravity).

      It’s intriguing that such different books in the same genre were written only years apart. Reminds me of the Tolkien conversation you’ve been having.

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    83. Ten Bears: Qyburn discovers a way to regrow Theon’s “toy,” Hot Pie is revealed to be Cersei & Robert’s black-haired baby boy, switched at birth; he loses 50 pounds, and defeats Gendry in a bake-off for Arya’s hand in marriage. Drogon roasts a barn full of wight chickens, and Sandor can’t decide whether to bury them or eat them. Varys is indeed a merman. So is Lord Manderly. Baby Sam is a WW double agent. It turns out Arya was cloned from Lyanna Stark’s DNA, so she’s Jon’s genetic mother and biological cousin. Cersei isn’t pregnant: it was a “food baby” after all. NK is about to attack WF, but then stops, turns around, and telepathically tells the AotD: “On second thought, let’s not go to Winterfell. ‘Tis a silly place.” Nymeria chases Robyn Arryn all over the Eyre until Robyn falls out the Moon Door. Jon looks down at Robyn’s splattered remains and praises Nymeria: “Impressive.”

      And Ten Bears goes and spoils it for everyone. Not very nice, is it?

      /sarcasm

      Seriously, though, I lolled, you’ve included so many of the fanfiction/crackpots. My only disappointment is that you failed to use your favourite phrase “super ninja warrior princess”. I expected more of you. 😉

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    84. talvikorppi: you failed to use your favourite phrase “super ninja (*) warrior princess”. I expected more of you

      * Don’t forget the “assassin” in there. It was your line/title after all. 😀

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    85. Northstar:

      Also, if NCW has already left it doesn’t bode well for Jamie *sob*

      *sob, sob*

      OK, never since 2014 when I first got introduced to the show and the books, have I thought Jaime would survive and I’ve been in pre-mourning ever since. But I still dread the moment. 🙁

      Imagine all those tall, strong boys and girls, true knights, Jaime and Brienne could’ve had. *sob* Dying in the arms of the woman he loves is some consolation, especially if Brienne knows she’s got his love, not just friendship and respect.

      As to Cersei, my favourite crackpot is that while Jon and/or Dany dillydally with scruples, ruthless Cersei blows up KL with wildfire, kills the Night King, Viserion, the WWs and the AotD (and a million innocents), thereby saving humanity. So who’s the hero now?

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    86. Clob: * Don’t forget the “assassin” in there.It was your line/title after all. 😀

      Gods, how embarrassing! Thank you, Clob. I stand corrected. About quoting myself, lol.

      My only defence is that my brain is melting, it’s been pretty hot by our standards for a few days, 24 to 27 Celsius and sunny. Today 28,3. Heat wave set to continue for a few days yet. OK, so it’s not a heat wave in many other parts of the world, but our Julys rarely get this warm, lol.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Adrianacandle: He wouldn’t even let my mum in his car while they were dating unless she correctly answered a set of trivia questions on Doctor Who.

      [Grumpy old man voice]
      In my day, respectable young women didn’t associate with Doctor Who fans. harumph. harumph. Nor, come to it, did unrespectable young women…..
      [/grumpy old man voice]

      Seriously, that is one huge improvement in televised SciFi and fantasy in general: it’s grown up. Shockingly, growing up has made it so that a lot more women now find it interesting. And that, despite what the disgruntled Doctor Who and Tolkien purists claim, really is a good thing….

        Quote  Reply

    88. So the initial schedule for filming at Italica was up to the 19th, but they were to have the site blocked off through the 28th…(?) If the 28th hasn’t changed I guess that gives them some leeway if they’re behind due to various circumstances. Still, the 19th would be through this week so maybe the bulk of what they’re doing is yet to come. It sure doesn’t seem like they’ve done all that much yet. It’s hard to know with things being so blocked off but still…

        Quote  Reply

    89. Clob,

      They end the filming the 19. From 20 until the 28 they are going to dismantle the scenario and restore the ruins back to their original state.

        Quote  Reply

    90. New pet theory derived from the agitation of waiting for next season and having too much time to think things up: Maybe it’s Jaime who makes the decision to blow up King’s Landing, with Cersei holed up in the Red Keep and surrounded by the AotD. Maybe this is the show’s way of placing the Valonquar prophecy into a context where Cersei is still around at the end. Jaime knows the wildfire is there, it would be one of those big, internal conflict situations that are a hallmark of the series, and it would have been foreshadowed and set up really nicely if we look back at previous seasons. Of course, there’s the whole Kingslayer situation, and then last year we were shown that Jaime knows the wildfire is there and knows Cersei’s plans, and that this is what finally drove him to leave her. Making this apparent serves two story purposes – giving him a reason to leave, but also, potentially setting him up to have to make an awful and ethically conflicted strategic choice. Plus we had Lancel Lannister, who idolized Jaime, crawling around in tunnels in pools of wildfire just before the Sept went up; maybe we get Jaime crawling around in tunnels to take out a substantial portion of the wight army after they infiltrate KL. He’s the only Lannister who hasn’t yet had a chance to fight with wildfire.

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    91. Jeez these guys are really screwing with our minds!

      Ok- so Lena arrived in Seville on friday evening (as far as I can see- although I’m sure someone will be able to confirm/refute) and she travelled to Belfast today.

      The cast don’t film over the weekend (in fact we saw them lounging by the pool as well as some of their IG stories), so that means Lena couldn’t have filmed any scenes at Itálica. Thor is also in Belfast so presumably she’s filming scenes with him.

      It’s logical to assume Lena was in Seville on a stopover to hang out with some of her buddies, many of whom she won’t have seen for a while.

      Jay Targ,

        Quote  Reply

    92. Fierce as a Wolverine,

      Gods, old and new, I love your thinking! A bit outside the box. Very intetesting idea, I have to think about it. Puts a new spin on the valonqar thing. And we know prophecy always bites you on the arse.

      Thanks for the food for thought.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Apollo,

      If Lena is in Belfast and Nicolaj in Cannes we can put the twins in the dead list. Emilia´s lack of filming at the Dragonpit also puts her in the risk zone.

      I´m getting the feeling that we are gonna see the end of the Seven Kingdom and the Targ dynasty.

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    94. Jay Targ:
      Looks like Kit finally made it to Seville

      https://twitter.com/lady_starkk/status/996063145209810944

      Yay! That’s some good news if that is indeed him for those of us who had fallen into the overreacting “everyone who is not filming in Spain right now is dead” camp. It does look like him with that mane of hair and the height of the guy, as well as the clothing being more what I have seen him in before. Though it seems everyone is coming and going, so maybe he’s just there for a flying visit like Lena and Nikolaj.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Ëonwë:
      Apollo,

      If Lena is in Belfast and Nicolaj in Cannes we can put the twins in the dead list. Emilia´s lack of filming at the Dragonpit also puts her in the risk zone.

      I´m getting the feeling that we are gonna see the end of the Seven Kingdom and the Targ dynasty.

      Are you also adding Gilly and Missandei to that list? Considering Jacob Anderson (Greyworm) and John Bradley (Samwell) are in Seville? I just don’t see it.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Che: who had fallen into the overreacting

      There’s been quite a bit of that. Everybody wants EVERYthing to be ‘something’ when it may not be at anything at all. These actors are friends that have worked on the show for years and they are realizing they’re in the last couple of months working together. It has to be a little different than seasons past. Some stuff could just be scheduled during convenient breaks to do things together, such as Nikolaj flying in to go to a game and then leaving again.

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    97. I can’t remember who it was above who mentioned Lino Facioli (Sweetrobin Arryn) had been spotted in Sevilla. Maybe I’m stupid or blind but I never saw any photographic confirmation of that in the pics of this article. Maybe it was some link in the comments that didn’t work for me? Whatever.

      If the dragonpit scene is some sort of a grand council, the Lord of the Vale should attend. He’s been weaned and has begun to learn war-like pursuits befitting a lord paramount of one of the Seven Kingdoms.

      He’s just such a snivelly, horrible, sickly little boy that he’ll outlast us all. The little shit won’t die or fly, he’ll take up his patrimony of the Vale and make Dany’s/Jon’s/whomever’s reign difficult.

      I’m all for snivelly little boys growing into their better adult selves. That’s what the Stark kids (not snivelly to begin with, but similarly sheltered, naive, childish and stupid) have been doing. Why not their cousin Robert Arryn? Or is it only reserved to the sainted Starks, who can do no wrong? 😉

        Quote  Reply

    98. Jay Targ,

      If that meeting is to decide the pollitical future of Westeros, them Gilly doesn´t have any role to play.

      As for Missandei, if Dany is dead her future lies back home in Naath not in Westeros.

      What we know is that Sohpie´s and Peter body doubles are there. And there are reports of the doubles of Isaac and Maisie.

      So that means shooting with Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran. And it makes sense. Because they were four of the original POV of the first book. ASOIAF is their story.

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    99. Jay Targ,

      I really believe many of those guys were there to confuse us. The way D&D were parading Furdik around to the crowds and giving him a shot in the limelight, they almost looked like proud parents.

      talvikorppi,

      There are pics of him on twitter so he’s definitely in Seville (or was). It does make sense that he’d appear at a Great Council meeting but man I hope he gets it from TAOTD- that kid bigs the crap outta me.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Ëonwë:
      Jay Targ,

      If that meeting is to decide the pollitical future of Westeros, them Gilly doesn´t have any roleto play.

      As for Missandei, if Dany is dead her future lies back home in Naath not in Westeros.

      What we know is that Sohpie´s and Peter body doubles are there. And there are reports of the doubles of Isaac and Maisie.

      So that means shooting with Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran. And it makes sense. Because they were four of the original POV of the first book. ASOIAF is their story.

      I would imagine Gilly would always accompany Sam; she’s always gone wherever he goes, be it Castle Black or even the Citadel.

      Concerning Missandei, yes sure, but Greyworm is at the Dragonpit. She would leave him?

      I think Maisie’s stunt double was there but left some point last week. And yes, we’ve seen Sophie’s and Peter’s stand ins so I definitely thinking they’re filming.

      And I’m not sure I understand your final point. It is also Jon’s story and Daenerys’ story. But I don’t see how it relates to them filming at the Dragonpit

        Quote  Reply

    101. Jay Targ,

      Could it be possible that Gilly and Missandei are helping Dany give birth?

      I have no idea if Dany will get pregnant/give birth or not. Just trying to come up with a reason why they’d all be gone (other than death).

        Quote  Reply

    102. Jay Targ,

      If it’s indeed another great council and if Gilly survives, she’d have no place at such a gathering as a Wildlimg girl. It’s possibly why Sandor is also absent. Although he’s hardly a commoner, he’s not a great lord either (although who can honestly say)?

      Actually I do wonder if anything will come of the fact little Sam is brother to some of the WWs.

        Quote  Reply

    103. talvikorppi,

      “…I’m all for snivelly little boys growing into their better adult selves. That’s what the Stark kids (not snivelly to begin with, but similarly sheltered, naive, childish and stupid) have been doing. Why not their cousin Robert Arryn?…”

      I’d be fine with seeing a glimpse of him maturing into a better person. It’s kind of morbid, but he probably stands a better chance of that now with Littlefinger and Lysa dead

        Quote  Reply

    104. Mr Derp:
      Jay Targ,

      Could it be possible that Gilly and Missandei are helping Dany give birth?

      I have no idea if Dany will get pregnant/give birth or not.Just trying to come up with a reason why they’d all be gone (other than death).

      Yeah perhaps. I simply cannot see Missandei or Gilly dying. I suppose the possibility is there, but that would be truly shocking to me.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Jay Targ,

      Well no, asides from Clob’s theory, I’m guessing in the event Dany and/or Missandei died, he could have decided to stay on and fight with the survivors. It’s what Dany would’ve wanted.

      As for Jaqen/the Waif.. I’m stumped. I reckon they’re decoys, but I had a fairly tinfoily theory in the previous thread.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Jay Targ,

      That out of the 8 originals POV characters, it looks like 4 of them will be in what looks like a meeting for the future of Westeros. If Jon and Dany die that means that of the original 8, four survive, four don´t.

      About Jacob Anderson. Maybe he is in Sevilla like Nicolaj, Lena or Vladimir. To throw people off.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Jay Targ,

      Thanks again, Jay Targ, but I can only see the first picture (John Bradley (Sam) with some semiblonde gappy-toothed preteen fan). Oh well, it isn’t very important… Though I’d want Robin Arryn to survive them all, to live to 92 and leave a healthy crop of sons and grandsons. So there!

      It’s not the great and good, the heroes, who survive. The world will be stuck with the robin arrryns, and make the best of it. It’s not going to be glorious, it’s going to be a muddle.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Jay Targ,

      Really? I can absolutely see them dying, as minor characters, they don’t have much to contribute to the endgame. In all honesty I’m amazed so many characters (principal or minor) are making it to the end… S8 should be a bloodbath, in true GOT tradition.

        Quote  Reply

    109. Apollo:
      Jay Targ,

      Well no, asides from Clob’s theory, I’m guessing in the event Dany and/or Missandei died, he could have decided to stay on and fight with the survivors. It’s what Dany would’ve wanted.

      As for Jaqen/the Waif.. I’m stumped. I reckon they’re decoys, but I had a fairly tinfoily theory in the previous thread.

      Sure, but like Gilly, Greyworm would have no place in a Great Council.

      In truth, I’m not sure that what they’re filming there will be some sort of Great Council.

      To my knowledge, Jaqen is still there as of yesterday. I think he’s there to film.
      https://twitter.com/lostinsheeran_/status/995984520536100865

      The waif’s hair in this picture also seems to indicate that she is there to film
      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dc20DwMX4AAaqPE.jpg

        Quote  Reply

    110. talvikorppi,

      Thanks!

      Maybe I should go manufacture some fake leaks to pass the time. I feel like my plot twists would be better than what’s out there. (I’m kidding, mods, don’t ban me.)

        Quote  Reply

    111. Ëonwë:
      Jay Targ,

      That out of the 8 originals POV characters, it looks like 4 of them will be in what looks like a meeting for the future of Westeros. If Jon and Dany die that means that of the original 8, four survive, four don´t.

      About Jacob Anderson. Maybe he is in Sevilla like Nicolaj, Lena or Vladimir. To throw people off.

      Yeah, that’s a possibility. Although, I’m not sold on the speculation that what they’re filming here is a political meeting.

      About Jacob, yeah that could be an explanation. Although, there is only that one image of him. They haven’t really paraded him in the way they did Nikolaj, Lena, or Vladimir. So they seem to be doing a poor job at it lol

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    112. Mr Derp: LC of the Kingsguard perhaps?

      Yeah, there’s just so many possibilities.

      As I said in another comment, I’m not so sure that this will be where another political meeting takes place. It’s simply one amongst many possibilities.

      I also cannot see Varys surviving. It would be quite surprising if he did.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Ëonwë:
      Jay Targ,

      “So that means shooting with Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran. And it makes sense. Because they were four of the original POV of the first book. ASOIAF is their story.”

      __________
      And all along I thought it was the story of ASNAWPF (Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess Fantasies).

      Hi Talvikorppi!

        Quote  Reply

    114. Wimsey,

      Agree, I had many discusions with LotR fans (Which I am one myself) when I said that I think SoIaF is better because GRRM focus on character building more.

      As far as I remember, Tolkiens story started (when he was writing it) about the world (and languages). After he almost completed what the world should look like he started to think about characters. With Martin I have a much different feeling, I have a feeling he started with a bunch of characters and later placed those in his rich world. (Don’t know if I’m right)

      And as far as LotR go, for me Frodo has a arc but not in the books, I found Tolkien amazing as a writer, but the characters I found very emty. That’s something the movie did much better in my opinion (I think I hope the mods aren’t lotr book fans because I’m afraid of getting a block for eternity). In the movie frodo did have a visible arc, at the beginning of the story he is an happy fellow, smile at everything, slowely after the events that happened during the movies he turned more and more sad/down/how ever you call it. You see the weight that he’s carying. Sam is not a servant in the movie but his best friend, the bond is stronger. They added a story arc for Arragorn from being afraid to take over the kingdom, to accepting his duty (in the books as far as I remember this was added at the beginning). Boromir and Faramir has a storyline etc etc. For me the characters are richer in the movie. I will never remember the book-characters but I will remember the movie-characters. (soIaF I will remember them both)

      —-

      As for the missing of Emilia: Probably a funeral. But what if it’s not, I could be a meeting in which Dany and Jon are being absent on purpose. A plan to take over KL? Maybe they don’t trust Cercei? (I don’t think this is likely because I don’t think Jon will put Arya and Sansa in harms way. Something else? But somehow I’m not really afraid that certain actors are missing. Because even if both die, they could have easily asked them to be on set. It’s too obvious with the amount of pictures posted on Social media by the cast, where in the past pictures were deleted (probably asked by D&D)

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    115. Jay Targ,

      Yes, indeed. At this point, I have no idea what is being filmed at the Dragonpit either.

      I can’t see Varys surviving either, especially since Mel told him that last season. I don’t think it’s some tongue-in-cheek thing like “you’ll die in Westeros Varys, but I didn’t say it would happen anytime soon” or some crap like that. By the time season 8 is over, he gone.

      The only thing is how does Varys die? I know the popular theory would be dragonfire from Dany, but, I don’t know. It just sounds too simple to me. As long as Varys is honest with her, I don’t think she’d kill him. Even if he was brutally honest with her. I wonder if his death will somehow tie into the voice that Varys heard in the flame when his “parts” were removed. Varys has to die with magic in some way I would assume, but damn, I really have no idea what specifically will happen.

      It’s relieving to know that season 8 hasn’t been spoiled yet. I don’t seek out spoilers, but I have no willpower to deny them when they are in front of me. I’m glad they are saving me from myself…so far.

        Quote  Reply

    116. Mr Derp,

      Yeah. I think we’re of similar thoughts as it concerns Varys.

      And I’m similar to when it comes to spoilers, although I probably do a little bit of seeking them out. Last season was unfortunate in that the entire plot leaked. Though, I’m still keeping my fingers crossed that one of WOTW’s sources gets some info on what is going on in the Dragonpit lol. Last year, they were able to confirm that they would be showing a wight here
      http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-chaos-seville-plus-major-italica-spoilers/

        Quote  Reply

    117. Mr Derp,

      It’s an interesting one and I was mulling this over the other day. Mel merlely ondocates that he’ll die in Westeros though. And while we’d be inclined to assume or believe it’ll be soon, it may not be. Who knows… he could live out his years as a key adviser or part of a modern democracy.

      I personally do believe he’ll meet his maker though. But first we need to know what the voice in the fire said to him (I think it was Bran), and also- what really was his agenda?

      I’m also now pondering if he’s connected to the FM being present here and even in S2.. it’s entirely possible he commissioned one and placed JH in the black cells for whatever reason.

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    118. Maybe I’m just not looking closely enough but I haven’t seen any photos that include Tom Wlaschiha, even though people say he’s there. I’m hoping he is involved in the shoot not just a visitor to the set.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Wimsey: [Grumpy old man voice]
      In my day, respectable young women didn’t associate with Doctor Who fans.harumph. harumph.Nor, come to it, did unrespectable young women…..
      [/grumpy old man voice]

      LOL!

      Wimsey: Seriously, that is one huge improvement in televised SciFi and fantasy in general: it’s grown up.Shockingly, growing up has made it so that a lot more women now find it interesting.And that, despite what the disgruntled Doctor Who and Tolkien purists claim, really is a good thing….

      It’s true! And most (except for one) of my female friends are into sci-fi, fantasy, and gaming. My dad got me into a lot of his favourite fantasy and sci-fi series but he has had some failures with me too – I am not a Trekkie, Whovian, (or a physicist) like he is 😉 And he scarred me for life with Return to Oz as a kid.

      But yes! One of my best friends had a Star Trek/LoTR/GoT/Final Fantasy combination wedding while another had a wedding celebrating pi. It’s only bonded us for life more… ;D

      And from what you said of Tolkien, I am really looking forward to reading about him. When I went across the country to attend grad school in Toronto, I was so so so so sad once my dad left after helping me set up my dorm. His solemn advice: “Go now to the bookstore and read The Silmarillion. It will soothe your distress.”

      If I’m not mistaken, I know The Silmarillion was primarily put together by Tolkien’s son from his notes after his death. I think re-reading Tolkien’s works in the context of knowing more about who he was and his views will be pretty fascinating. I’m already intrigued by what you’ve said.

        Quote  Reply

    120. kevin1989: As far as I remember, Tolkiens story started (when he was writing it) about the world (and languages).

      In part, although it was also just that Tolkien enjoyed “spinning a yarn.” If I recall, he started writing what would basically become the Fall of Gondolin while in a hospital recovering from the Somme during WWI. Sort of like GRRM’s seed of wolf-pups in the snow, it snowballed into other things.

      It merged with his interests in languages and the evolution of stories. One thing that he did in his professional work was track how the narratives of individual stories evolved over time: the version told one century was different from the one told in a prior one, or different in (say) one part of Scandinavia than in a different part. As you allude, Tolkien fans probably take the cake for including the most “fundamentalist” purists out there: and yet their hero wrote papers on how it simply was not possible for the same delivery to convey the same meaning at different points in time or (as he wrote when reviewing a possible script for Lord of the Rings) in different media.

      Indeed, although Tolkien is the guy that we credit with inventing world-building, and although it was a passion for him, Tolkien did not think that was an important aspect of adapting the LotR story to film. If you want to really piss off Tolkien fans, cite those letters to them! (“He didn’t really mean that thought, because, I don’t want to believe that he did!”)

      kevin1989: After he almost completed what the world should look like he started to think about characters. With Martin I have a much different feeling, I have a feeling he started with a bunch of characters and later placed those in his rich world. (Don’t know if I’m right)

      And as far as LotR go, for me Frodo has a arc but not in the books

      Jackson & Co were acutely aware of the criticisms of Tolkien’s works with regard to the characters. I think that it affected Aragorn the most. GRRM has made fun of how Tolkien expected us to believe that a guy who spent his entire life in the wilderness is suddenly going to be a great and wise king of a City-State. They also foresaw that people would consider Book!Aragorn to look “entitled” by just assuming that he should be king because some great to the umpteenth grandfather was. (We need only look at SoI&F, where so many people think that Daenerys should be seen as acting “entitled,” when her father was King and she lives in a world where primogeniture is taken for granted; although there almost certainly is a huge element of sexism involved there, I’m not sure that a Y-chromosome quite makes up for the huge span of time over which Aragorn’s forefathers were not kings.)

      Frodo definitely got a bit more of an arc in the films, too: in particular, they went out of their way to show Frodo developing some analog of Stockholm Syndrome with Gollum. Tolkien definitely showed us that Frodo has some “pity” (= sympathy in modern vernacular) for Gollum, but that was (to Tolkien) an example of Frodo’s nobility and wisdom, not a sign that he was projecting himself onto poor old Smeagol.

      At any rate, the LotR films stand out to me as an example of outstanding adaptation: they took the literary Great White Shark and turned it into a cinematic T. rex.

      The Hobbit, on the other hand….. sigh…..

        Quote  Reply

    121. Wimsey,

      The hobbit? Those movies were never made. Period, end of discussion. 😉 Even Jackson didn’t like his adaption of the hobbit, he blamed himself because he hadn’t time to prepare the shootings.

        Quote  Reply

    122. orange,

      Hee I was actually coming to post something similar- what is left of the north goes to Kings Landing and finds places to hide using Tyrion’s knowledge of the pipes and such in Casterly Rock along with the population of KL*. . One the NK and WWs are in the city, Cersie lets it all blow up – including herself, becoming a hero and a martyr. When everyone comes up for air, its spring!

      * I am aware of the legistic improbablities of all this but this is a fantasy novel, after all!

        Quote  Reply

    123. talvikorppi,

      The McCarthy era certainly influenced the attitudes of the 50s, making it very conservative, traditional family etc. So Im not surprised. Thos attitudes were among the sparks that started the Civil Rights and anti war movements, a reaction against all of that.

        Quote  Reply

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