Daenerys’s Armies Go to War & Game of Thrones Shoots at Ballintoy for Season 8!

304 Daenerys Unsullied

With the Dragonpit shoot in Spain scheduled to have begun yesterday but with no reported cast or crew on site yet (the cast are expected to arrive next week), our focus in the meantime moves back to Ballintoy and the Titanic Studios set, where production already commenced last week. It didn’t stop. Quite the opposite, in fact: Daenerys has arrived, ready to kick ass and majestically sit on thrones—and she’s all out of thrones.

Daenerys Targaryen’s armies are at the gates of King’s Landing again, and this time it’s probably not just another show of force. Dozens of Unsullied and mounted Dothraki were sighted yesterday at Titanic Studios, near the walls of the King’s Landing set:

At least some Unsullied and Dothraki survive the battles in the North, as they will be there for the later King’s Landing battle, which will pitch Dany’s forces against Cersei’s, at the very least—though it remains to be seen whether the North will be able to lend a hand or not; or whether the Night King and his undead army will also come to say hi.

Such a complex shoot will be filmed in small fragments, as all battle sequences are by necessity, which unfortunately means we won’t actually get to witness much of a coherent battle during filming. Glimpses of the armies and characters involved, a bit of action, and pyrotechnics are the best we can probably hope for in the days to come. Speaking of which: we don’t know whether this battle sequence will be filmed in days, weeks, or months, but in any case we’ll keep you updated on what’s going on. Stay tuned!

THeon Yara

Concurrently, another unit is hard at work on Ballintoy, specifically at the rocky beach near the harbor. Though no Greyjoy cast members have been sighted, Ballintoy is famous for depicting Pyke, from where the Greyjoys reign over the Iron Islands. Last night, the ever-vigilant Oakleaf Photography was there to take a peek at the night shoot:

Photo: Oakleaf Photography

The crew before the shoot. Are those animal transport trailers? Photo: Oakleaf Photography

Photo: Oakleaf Photography

Many people were there, but we can’t tell who’s cast and who’s crew. Photo: Oakleaf Photography

Photo: Oakleaf Photography

The scene included a number of characters around a fire. Photo: Oakleaf Photography

Aside from the fact that this is a night shoot with a few characters around a fire on the beach, my non-elf eyes see little else of note. The main story here is that filming is definitely going on at Ballintoy. Hopefully we’ll get a closer look throughout the week!

98 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Alfie is in italy (according to his ig stories), and pilou posted a few hours ago that he’s sick and very much at home in copenhagen.

        Quote  Reply

    2. So it’s pretty safe to assume that Danys forces attack (or at least arrive) at KL before the city gate is breached (presumably by a dragon).

      Wondering how (or even if) the AOTD will factor into all of this.. will they be wiped out in the North, or will there be a climactic battle for the dawn at KL?

      I suppose we’ll need to keep an eye out for wights/WWs being escorted on to the set.

      And now with it seeming as though the Dragonpit might be used for another meeting/parley as well as the

      pics of Lena/Kit in Dubrovnik

      , I’m worried that the climax of the KL plot (and the conclusion to the story ) will be discussion based 😬

        Quote  Reply

    3. We know there are time warps in Westeros
      but two armies from Winterfell to Kings Landing should be weeks of travel?
      Will that be part of the story, or ignored?

        Quote  Reply

    4. Colin Armfield,

      More like months.. Slow marching and in the depths of winter too.

      With each new piece of information it becomes harder to piece together what we’ll see. I guess that can only be a good thing as we won’t be spoiled so much 😋

        Quote  Reply

    5. Colin Armfield,

      Probably it’s ignored or at the most it will be glossed over. The time of weeks to travel anywhere in Westeros should be over. We get it. Westeros is big. It’s safe to assume time and distance has passed off screen if we see groups in different locations from episode to episode.

        Quote  Reply

    6. Well, well, Daenerys’ army outside KL… I figured we’d be able to narrow our speculations when we saw who shows up at the walls. It’s still very broad but there are a lot of conclusions that can be jumped on. My first jump would be to suggest that this means the NK has been defeated and the war between the living is priority again. Would there really be time to divert manpower away from the AotD if they’re still on the move? Unless they’re retreating to KL I wouldn’t think so…

      To be honest I’ve always thought the final battle would be defeating the NK and the circumstances and fallout of that war would determine the new king/queen. I certainly haven’t expected it to be getting Cersei off of the throne. Is it possible they all retreat to KL and the images of Jon with Cersei were another plead from him for her to band together or die? Maybe this of the Unsullied & Dothraki won’t be an attack but simply an entrance inside to prepare for the AotD on their heels? It’s all a lot of guessing.

        Quote  Reply

    7. Normally I don’t really give a crap about time passage on the show, and in fact, I get tired of the frequent complaints about it, but I also think they were a bit too cavalier with time passage in season 7, so hopefully a balance can be reached for season 8.

      What I don’t want to see is them dedicate a portion of the last 6 episodes of the entire series to watching troops march just so a few people can feel more warm and fuzzy about time passage. That would be unnecessary and a complete waste of time.

        Quote  Reply

    8. Clob,

      I’d also assumed/ hoped the climax must surely be the battle for the dawn, after all that’s been built up around it..seems increasingly so that this won’t be the case. 😕

      Mr Derp,

      I agree, it wouldn’t contribute much to the overall plot to see an extended march (and there’s certainly no time to show this).

      But if Jon/Dany’s beleaguered forces are trekking all the way back 1500 miles south in winter, with little or no supplies, with the AOTD on their heels (or even if they’re exhausted post war for the dawn), then that surely must factor in somewhere to the story? Otherwise it’d be a massive plot hole if they appear at the gates, fresh and ready for battle.

        Quote  Reply

    9. Mr Derp,
      Agree with all of it.

      They could have stretched the series out another ten years with a lot walking, walking, walking. Boring! We know movie franchises that did some of that. They could have super-slow-mo’d the storyline and recycled plot points to make time passage more realistic. Boring! We know a tv show that’s doing that. I’m okay with how GoT has done it while admitting there have been a couple instances that stood out. Scenes order in editing a bit differently might have helped.

        Quote  Reply

    10. Alfie and Pilou are not in Belfast, but Kit and Maisie are…Could Ballintoy be used for some other location? Or they are filming in studios and no main character is currently required for the Ballintoy filming.

        Quote  Reply

    11. The armies will already have marched up to Winterfell with winter started and “half the country starving” (Unless they get a lift on boats?)
      So going back is no further stretch of imagination.

        Quote  Reply

    12. Apollo,

      Oh I would agree with that for sure. Anything relevant to the plot should be shown whether it’s during a march or not. I just don’t want to see them marching for the sake of making me feel better about time passage.

        Quote  Reply

    13. Mr Derp,

      With a lot of male actors seeming like they are growing thicker beards from what I’ve seen, I think that will be one of the signs of time passing. The war will probably go on for months and we may only have what the characters look like to estimate the amount of time passing from them looking squeaky clean to raggered and looking worse for wear.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Clob,

      Yup, I feel the same. Maybe they can show time travel by squeezing in a PBS traveling special for season 8, “Rick Steves: The Wonders of Westerosi Travel”, where Rick can meet some of the locals and tell us about all the Bed and Breakfast establishments along the Kingsroad while armies are marching. It could make for a nice blue ray special addition for the season 8 release 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    15. Apollo,

      I actually think the battle for the dawn will conclude in the south not the north, their are many hints and premonitions/fevered dreams in the books of characters fighting the dead in south locations. So I can see two battles one in the north, then the WW go south and with the people they’ve lost our rag team of heroes once again try enlisting Cersei’s help either with talking or by force if necessary. If the whole battle was concluded in the north no one from the southern kingdoms would ever believe it even occurred.

        Quote  Reply

    16. Mel,

      Yea, my personal opinion is that the war with the AOTD has to make it south to KL, doesn’t it? I seem to recall a vision of the NK flying over KL on Viserion, so that “gun” must be “fired” at some point.

      Ultimately, my guess for right now is that the AOTD will be destroyed at Winterfell as a diversion while the NK rides South on Viserion to destroy KL and perhaps add the Golden Company as his new AOTD while he’s down there.

      The diversion tactic has already worked twice on the show. Once for Rob Stark and once for The Lannisters.

        Quote  Reply

    17. Mr Derp,

      All they’d need to do is a quick 20 sec montage of troops travelling through various locations from a distance (or height), largely using CGI with a few establishing shots of men collapsing with hunger or horses dying in the extreme cold. They’ve got that huge greenscreen after all 😛

        Quote  Reply

    18. Clob:
      Well, well, Daenerys’ army outside KL…I figured we’d be able to narrow our speculations when we saw who shows up at the walls.It’s still very broad but there are a lot of conclusions that can be jumped on.My first jump would be to suggest that this means the NK has been defeated and the war between the living is priority again.Would there really be time to divert manpower away from the AotD if they’re still on the move?Unless they’re retreating to KL I wouldn’t think so…

      Don’t forget the following lines we’ve received:

      Dany: “I can’t forget what I saw. But I can’t pretend that Cersei won’t take back half the country the moment I march North.”

      Jon: “Everything before the word ‘but’ is horseshit.”

        Quote  Reply

    19. Apollo,

      I do love me a good montage, whether it be a sports training montage, a 1980’s movie where someone tries on different outfits to the approval of his/her friends montage, blowing up the Sept montage, and everything in between!

        Quote  Reply

    20. I Hope Thiago not mean that the NK hás Bernardo defeated in the North, would bem such a BS, the greatest threat cant even advance the North.

        Quote  Reply

    21. Apollo:
      I suppose we’ll need to keep an eye out for wights/WWs being escorted on to the set.

      This is my only conclusion right now. If there are guys in green, the wights will get to King’s Landing.

      Also, given that the Winterfell battle seems to take place at night, and whatever is happening in Pyke will be in the dark, let’s hope that at least this battle will happen during the day. Not even for the spoiler factor, for the ‘let’s not have the last battle in the show not clearly visible on screen’ factor.

      edit: unless ‘the Long Night’ is literal, and the WW bring some sort of a polar night with them? But the days haven’t been growing shorter, have they? Also, if that’s the case, I hope they bring the aurora as well, a battle lit up by an aurora would look cool.

        Quote  Reply

    22. ……..
      Dany:“I can’t forget what I saw. But I can’t pretend that Cersei won’t take back half the country the moment I march North.”

      Jon: “Everything before the word ‘but’ is horseshit.”

      I think she says “and” in that sentence, not “but.” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q7psMvfwvg)

      It seemed more like an issue of multitasking rather than choosing one over the other.

      If they can kill the NK, then theoretically they could wipe out all the whitewalkers and their wights instantaneously. Unless he’s indestructible, the NK’s the strongest and weakest link for the AotD. So it would be hard, but he could be completely defeated in the North in a relatively ‘short’ time

        Quote  Reply

    23. krupke,

      My personal take is that the NK will split with the rest of the Army of the Dead. The AOTD will head for Winterfell while the NK will head for KL on top of Viserion.

      The AOTD will be wiped out in Winterfell, but the NK will raise a new army in KL via the Golden Company and KL residents, which will compel the Northern forces to head south to KL for a final showdown with the NK, The Golden Wight Company, and Cersei.

        Quote  Reply

    24. Mr Derp: the NK will raise a new army in KL via the Golden Company and KL residents

      That sort of thing crossed my mind as well. What seems weird to me when I think of that is the image of the Night King sitting on the throne overseeing a city full of undead people just ambling around. It’s difficult for me to accept that as his goal instead of continually moving and killing until all of the living are gone from Westeros.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Mr Derp,

      “…..The AOTD will be wiped out in Winterfell, but the NK will raise a new army in KL via the Golden Company and KL residents,….”

      Quite possible. I wonder what means Cersei (and Qyburn) would use to escape KL (boat?) or weather in place…..and how would dany/jon’s forces catch her?

        Quote  Reply

    26. krupke,

      Cersei will never attempt to escape KL. She will either win the war for the throne or blown everybody up if she knows that she’ll lose.

      She’s a perfect candidate for the “if I can’t have it then nobody will” philosophy.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Mr Derp,

      … as she explodes the Red Keep blasting herself out through the roof, caught flaming midair over King’s Landing by Drogon and devoured. I’d kinda like to see that. 😛

        Quote  Reply

    28. Clob,

      Yea, I have no idea what the NK would do if he wins and turns everyone into wights. That’s part of the mystery I suppose, but I would imagine that he would have 3 choices:

      * have them all just drop dead and he’d rule alone
      * use them as his sycophants and slaves, etc.
      * make them put on plays for him while he sits on the Iron Throne watching with amusement.

      I’m sure there’s an option 4 out there too, but Im at work and don’t have the time to come up with others, lol.

        Quote  Reply

    29. Clob,

      From what we see, it really looks like the Unsullied (and the Dothaki) will be entering KL peacelfully through an open gate. Sure, it’s fair to expect them having problems afterwards. Cersei will be there and the Night King may make a surprise landing, even if he suffers a defeat in the North.

        Quote  Reply

    30. Clob:
      Mr Derp,

      … as she explodes the Red Keep blasting herself out through the roof, caught flaming midair over King’s Landing by Drogon and devoured.I’d kinda like to see that.

      Maybe have Rhaegal and Drogon fight over her carcass mid-air and tear it in two, just because.

        Quote  Reply

    31. Mr Derp,

      The NK (and also the WWs) were created for one purpose only: to wipe out mankind. So I think he and his generals would simply die off themselves, self terminate or possibly even hibernate. Perhaps that’s both their curse and their driving force: to find eternal rest once they’ve fulfilled their true purpose.

        Quote  Reply

    32. Interesting.

      Which of Cersei or Dany is going to make King’s Landing go boom then, I wonder?

      Since the Night King now appears to be the longer shot out of the three of them.

        Quote  Reply

    33. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Interesting.

      Which of Cersei or Dany is going to make King’s Landing go boom then, I wonder?

      Since the Night King now appears to be the longer shot out of the three of them.

      It has to be Dany. D&D mentioned the final Holy Shit moment GRRM told them being at the very end, Cersei doing it is predictable and it would complete Dany’s arc of becoming the dragon. Time and time again has proven that Dany ultimately solves all problems with fire and blood and Olenna told her to be a dragon too, someone who Dany looked up to.

      Plus it parrels well with the Mad King, Dany setting firing to the city would also set off the WF, ultimately completing her father’s works.

      Cersei blowing up KL would be not only predictable but repetitive. She already blew up the sept. Dany will also lose the popularity contest between her and Jon as the 7K pick Jon when the revelation is made public. She won’t be queen.

        Quote  Reply

    34. BeardedOnion,

      And don’t forget that she made it very clear: I was meant to rule the seven kingdoms and I will.

      That statement made it very clear that she will no matter what the cost. And I wonder what happen when the 7k will choose Jon over her, will she bend the knee or not for him.

      And some questions I have are the following:
      – tyrion stated that cerceis one redeeming quality is her children, is this child her redeeming, will she turn a better person.
      – will we get a moment where Jon needs to choose between love and duty, and which one will he choose.
      – how will Sam react when he hear what Dany did to his father and brother and how will Jon react to that knowledge.

      I think there will be a moment when Jon ask for shelter in kings landing, and that cercei will grand him that but not her. He will choose duty. I think he still love ygritte more that Dany, and with ygritte he chose duty.

      But for me it doesn’t matter if cercei is the last villain to be defeated. Or it is the nk or Dany or Jon, or even if it’s ser pounce. As long as they bring it in a believable way.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Kevin1989:
      BeardedOnion,

      And don’t forget that she made it very clear: I was meant to rule the seven kingdoms and I will.

      That statement made it very clear that she will no matter what the cost.

      I suppose the counter to that would be when she told Jon (once he pledged to her) that she hoped she’d deserve it.

      And I’d say that it’s been shown that Dany is very wary of the cost; else wise she’d already be Queen, or at the very least she would have already defeated Cersei.
      Perhaps, you could argue that in Season 8 she’ll stop worrying about the cost, but as of now I’d say the cost is very much on her mind.

      Kevin1989:
      BeardedOnion,

      And I wonder what happen when the 7k will choose Jon over her, will she bend the knee or not for him.

      Is this a spoiler? I only ask cause you and BeardedOnion both appear to be certain that it’ll come down to a popularity contest, which is a possibility but not the only one (unless I missed some info). And besides, I wouldn’t be quick to assume that Jon’s parentage will aid his popularity; for all we know, it could damage it.

        Quote  Reply

    36. So what do you guys think Dany will find when she arrives at KL? What are the political/social conditions?

      I think there’s probably unrest. With winter comes refugees from the countryside and hunger. Things might be precarious for Cersei where she’s barricaded inside the Keep and the people are enraged outside.

      Of course, GOT writers don’t like being predictable, so if a fan can predict that, they probably won’t go there.

      When Team Dragon gets back, is Cersei about ready to deliver her baby, or is it already born. What about Dany’s presumed pregnancy.

      Lots of questions..no answers.

        Quote  Reply

    37. Jay Targ,

      Agreed. Also, assuming that the NK does not prevail, isn’t it just as likely that whatever leadership/representatives are left of the seven kingdoms would opt not to have a central ruler?

        Quote  Reply

    38. Jay Targ,

      Of course it’s on her mind. But something needs to happen with the guns that are hanging. Or she needs to be queen or she fails but did something terrible, else her story doesn’t make sense at all.

      And no spoilers. Just assumptions from the last 7 seasons.the only spoilers I know are those posted by watchersonthewall.com (but if they will ever post a spoiler containing the end I will not read it)

      Anon,
      Bend the knee, killing her dragon. Killing Jorah. The last one would be a true cercei act, helping Dany and Jon if they give up a live they care about.

      Kings landing will have their own refugee problem, can’t wait till the hard working people of kings landing will scream: they took our jobs.
      Maybe cercei will make westeros great again. (sorry couldn’t resist)

        Quote  Reply

    39. Jay Targ: I suppose the counter to that would be when she told Jon (once he pledged to her) that she hoped she’d deserve it.

      And I’d say that it’s been shown that Dany is very wary of the cost; else wise she’d already be Queen, or at the very least she would have already defeated Cersei.
      Perhaps, you could argue that in Season 8 she’ll stop worrying about the cost, but as of now I’d say the cost is very much on her mind.

      She’s always been restrained, I think. She had her whole Army outside the walls of Mereen and what did she fling over the walls? Collars!

      Tyrion can congratulate himself all he likes, because he doesn’t really know Dany. Jorah and Greyworm and even Daario know her better. They were with her in those early days. There was very little actual fighting which is how she made it to Westeros with her army intact.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Kevin1989,

      I hope she’s in no mood to parlay. I hope Dany comes back with blood in her eye. But then again, maybe she’s war weary and has seen so many people die, she might be open to compromise. On the other hand, she could be thinking about her baby’s safety and that it won’t be safe so long as Cersei survives. I can’t decide.

      One thing I know, I hope it’s not Tyrion who survives and makes it back with Dany’s army.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Apollo: I’m worried that the climax of the KL plot (and the conclusion to the story) will be discussion based

      I want this! 8.06: Episode-long roundtable discussion facilitated by Davos.

      Ten Bears: Oh good. S8 is shaping up to be Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess Fantasies.

      I’m waiting for Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess Fantasies 2: Valyria Strikes Back. That cliffhanger with the carbonite – wow!

        Quote  Reply

    42. Some people just want to make Daenerys the evil one somehow or in some way. As of now, in Westeros, all that can be used against her by the people is that she toasted the Tarly men. However, this is a time of war and she gave them a choice. Randyll refused to recognize her, essentially called her names and would not accept a sentence to the NW. Is it simply the method? There have been a lot of atrocious things done in the history of their wars for power. CerSei and Jon have killed as well; one basically out of anger and revenge that also killed dozens of innocents and the other for insubordination and mutinous activities.

      A popularity contest? What makes Jon the popular choice in Westeros, especially when he’s fighting alongside Daenerys? The entire North has already been split recently due to actions and failures of House Stark and it still doesn’t seem very solid. Those in the south also don’t think too well of the people in The North, believing they’re a little backward, hardly better than wildlings. On top of all of those feelings and that Jon has aligned with Daenerys, he too is going to be discovered to be Targaryen. They may even have a baby together. I’d say there’s also a good chance he’ll ride around on a dragon too before all is said and done. What then differentiates Jon and Daenerys? That’s just saying, and hoping for some, that Daenerys is going to go all batshit crazy. I personally don’t see that happening. She may do some visually ruthless stuff, but it’s always specifically on enemies. We already have batshit lady in Cersei who kills anybody and everybody without caring as long as it gets rid of people she doesn’t like and it gives her pleasure.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Apollo:
      Clob,

      I’d also assumed/ hoped the climax must surely be the battle for the dawn, after all that’s been built up around it..seems increasingly so that this won’t be the case. 😕

      I hope so too, that the battle against the NK must be part of the climax given how it’s been built up over the seasons! What gives me some amount of hope for this is that it makes more sense for the structure of a visual medium for everything to build towards one balls-to-the-wall climax in episode 5 or 6 doesn’t it? Rather than have 2 mini-climaxes, have one massive one.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Clob,

      Yep. And with regard to the Tarly’s…It’s possible there could be repercussions for their execution , but I don’t think it’ll be b/c of Sam’s affection for them. Randall told Sam to go to the Nightswatch or die in a hunting “accident.”

        Quote  Reply

    45. krupke,
      I don’t understand suggestions that Sam is going to have a very long-lasting problem with that news. First, he hated his father and had little love for Dickon. Secondly, Jon is more of his brother and family than either of them ever were and Jon cares for Daenerys. Third, it means Sam is Lord of Horn Hill and would have a place to live with Gilly and raise little Sam and other children they could have. Fourth and lastly, Daenerys can just speak softly to him and apologize and Sam will melt. 😛

        Quote  Reply

    46. Clob:
      Some people just want to make Daenerys the evil one somehow or in some way.As of now, in Westeros, all that can be used against her by the people is that she toasted the Tarly men.However, this is a time of war and she gave them a choice.Randyll refused to recognize her, essentially called her names and would not accept a sentence to the NW.Is it simply the method?There have been a lot of atrocious things done in the history of their wars for power.CerSei and Jon have killed as well; one basically out of anger and revenge that also killed dozens of innocents and the other for insubordination and mutinous activities.

      A popularity contest?What makes Jon the popular choice in Westeros, especially when he’s fighting alongside Daenerys?The entire North has already been split recently due to actions and failures of House Stark and it still doesn’t seem very solid.Those in the south also don’t think too well of the people in The North, believing they’re a little backward, hardly better than wildlings.On top of all of those feelings and that Jon has aligned with Daenerys, he too is going to be discovered to be Targaryen.They may even have a baby together.I’d say there’s also a good chance he’ll ride around on a dragon too before all is said and done.What then differentiates Jon and Daenerys?That’s just saying, and hoping for some, that Daenerys is going to go all batshit crazy.I personally don’t see that happening.She may do some visually ruthless stuff, but it’s always specifically on enemies.We already have batshit lady in Cersei who kills anybody and everybody without caring as long as it gets rid of people she doesn’t like and it gives her pleasure.

      I certainly think its possible she burns down KL. However, i don’t really see this notion of a face-heel turn going along with it. If she does it there will be an extremely good reason for doing it that people will be able to have a reasonable discussion around whether it was justifiable or not.

      The whole thing with both her character and that family is exploring the fine line between greatness and madness. So there is always an element of debate with some of the stuff she does where from a certain point of view it looks crazy – oh my god she burned the city like her father wanted to – but from another seems completely justified. If the climax is indeed her burning the city, there will be a justifiable reason for it.

      The whole idea of a popularity contest to decide the Throne strikes me as a bit weird and not at all in keeping with how Westerosi politics works. The lords of Westeros are sheep as Olenna told us. They obey those they fear. If someone burns down KL and still has two dragons than I don’t really see the lords of Westeros choosing another ruler.

      I think the question of who rules between Jon and Dany will be one they settle themselves amongst themselves and I do think Daenerys will at some point at least offer to bend the knee to Jonno. Whether he accepts it or not no idea but I think she will offer.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Mr Derp,

      I agree, last year I proposed the NK would arrive at KL and the writers would ‘fire the gun’, of the wildfire under KL…and someone walks through fire.

      Your idea of the NK using the GC makes for good, cohesive drama

        Quote  Reply

    48. “Dovageris! Axio ozendas, menti ozendas”

      Man, I hope we get one final Valyrian speech for Dany before its all over
      *cries in denial*

        Quote  Reply

    49. House Monty: I think the question of who rules between Jon and Dany will be one they settle themselves amongst themselves

      That of course would come into play if they both live to that point, which I assume means The End. If that’s the case we would then have to not consider the two of them ruling together as king and queen… united to save Westeros, united to lead it afterward…

        Quote  Reply

    50. People make Sam out to be a complete sociopath who only cares about pretty women, of course he’ll care if his brother died horribly, especially after finding out he was a good man.

      Plus if it wouldn’t affect him all that much, we wouldn’t have gotten that scene where the maesters hid the news since it’ll devastate him. The show goes a step further and shows us how disgusted Varys is at the crime and he shares no blood with either.

      Sam will also need a reason to go against Dany and side with Jon. He’ll almost certainly hate Dany.

      Also the matter of who rules won’t be up to Dany or Jon, the Westerosi nobles will reject her. Sam, Tyrion (in time), the Stark girls, Varys, Yohn and others will reject her for various reasons. Jon will pick duty over love, Dany has always failed to win over the nobles and this time she can’t just burn or frighten them into submission.

        Quote  Reply

    51. BeardedOnion,

      I fall somewhere in the middle here. I’m sure Sam will care that his father and brother are dead; especially his brother. He’d also consider the feelings of his mother and sister without question. It would be out of character for him not to care. However, I also think it would be somewhat out of character for Sam to be completely devastated since his father hated his guts and insulted him at every opportunity. There was no place in the family for Sam as long as his father was alive.

      One could also easily argue that Dany’s decision to kill Randyl and Dickon was perfectly justified, just as one could also argue that it was a poor decision. Either way, it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out for sure.

        Quote  Reply

    52. BeardedOnion:
      People make Sam out to be a complete sociopath who only cares about pretty women, of course he’ll care if his brother died horribly, especially after finding out he was a good man.

      Wouldn’t Sam already know whether his brother was a good man or not? I don’t think that’ll be much of a revelation.

      BeardedOnion:

      Sam will also need a reason to go against Dany and side with Jon. He’ll almost certainly hate Dany.

      Even if we were to pretend that Dany never roasted Randyll and Dickon, I’m sure he’d side with Jon. Why wouldn’t he? Having known Jon for years would surely be reason enough.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Mr Derp:

      One could also easily argue that Dany’s decision to kill Randyl and Dickon was perfectly justified, just as one could also argue that it was a poor decision.Either way, it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out for sure.

      Yeah I agree with this. Both sides could easily be argued. However, I’m not sure that people will be satisfied with the way this is addressed next season.

        Quote  Reply

    54. Jay Targ,

      Yup. To be honest, I wasn’t particularly satisfied with how they addressed it in season 7. I didn’t think it was the clusterfuck that Varys and Tyrion made it out to be, but everyone’s got an opinion.

      I also think Sam’s intelligent enough to see the bigger picture and not get into a petty revenge squabble.

      Additionally, the Maesters proved that they may be book smart, but not necessarily intelligent when it comes to dealing with people, so if they assumed that Sam would be devastated, I would almost be inclined to assume just the opposite because of how useless the Maesters turned out to be.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Jay Targ,

      Sure, Jon is more a brother to Sam, than Dickon ever was. Moreover, Sam knows that he is the rightful heir to the throne. As for Dany, it’s pretty obvious that Sam will get along with her eventually: she burned his father and brother – yes, but she also saved Jon and is comitted her forces to the only war that matters (and he used to admire her before). Sure, there will be some confrontation, but it will be nothing more than Arya vs Sansa, because anything more would be out of character for everyone involved. And IMO, this whole setup is to break Dany’s self-confidence, to make her reassess her actions and desires and to realise that she always wanted HOME, not the throne.

        Quote  Reply

    56. BeardedOnion:
      People make Sam out to be a complete sociopath who only cares about pretty women, of course he’ll care if his brother died horribly, especially after finding out he was a good man.

      Plus if it wouldn’t affect him all that much, we wouldn’t have gotten that scene where the maesters hid the news since it’ll devastate him. The show goes a step further and shows us how disgusted Varys is at the crime and he shares no blood with either.

      Sam will also need a reason to go against Dany and side with Jon. He’ll almost certainly hate Dany.

      Also the matter of who rules won’t be up to Dany or Jon, the Westerosi nobles will reject her. Sam, Tyrion (in time), the Stark girls, Varys, Yohn and others will reject her for various reasons. Jon will pick duty over love, Dany has always failed to win over the nobles and this time she can’t just burn or frighten them into submission.

      Lol. This is 100% false.

      If Dany has always failed to win over the nobles, how did she have Dorne and Highgarden backing her? Why did the KITN bend the knee to her?

      Are they not nobles?

      Your point would be stronger if it did not depend on things that are just factually not true.

        Quote  Reply

    57. House Monty: Lol. This is 100% false.

      If Dany has always failed to win over the nobles, how did she have Dorne and Highgarden backing her? Why did the KITN bend the knee to her?

      Are they not nobles?

      Your point would be stronger if it did not depend on things that are just factually not true.

      Yeah, she won over Dorne and the Iron Islands, two fledging powers who were always distant to the Iron Throne and the other houses. One which Varys won over for her and the other being two exiled siblings who don’t have the backing of the Iron Island nobles. Two houses who hate the Lannisters more than they like Dany.

      Good luck winning over the North, the Vale, the Westerlands and so on. The Vale and North already hate her and the Westerlands are at war with her. Varys is already questioning her and it won’t be long before Tyrion does too. Sam had his family ruined by her hand and Jon is his brother, the Stark sisters will be 50/50 if they personally like her but there’s no way in hell they’ll ever pick her over Jon.

      We’ll see what will happen, but many nobles already detest her for bringing rapists and war mongerers to their shores with fire-breathing behemoths. She’s also gained a rep for being ruthless.

      The revelation of Jon’s heritage is going to cause a shit storm and will force people to pick a side, many of the characters are instantly going to be aligned to Jon. I mean Dany’s whole shtick is about fucking over the landed rich nobles, something which isn’t going to go down well with them ever. She has a huge ego too and won’t accept being second in command.

      I don’t hate Dany, she’s awesome and pretty damn inspiring, but she’s no ruler and the show’s proven that plenty of times.

        Quote  Reply

    58. * ninja’d by Monty as I’m in the middle of a related post.

      BeardedOnion: Dany has always failed to win over the nobles

      Since I can tell it’s an entirely bias topic I’m only going to respond to this line. I don’t recall if you’ve said, but I do get the feeling you haven’t read the released books…? So Daenerys has always failed to win over the nobles? Are we just going to ignore the situations she was in as well as lack of proper opportunities she’s had?

      After Viserys ‘sold’ her to Drogon her first opportunity to win over a noble by birth person was Jorah. Initially a spy but he saw her good. One can consider him not noble because of his banishment though.

      Her next opportunity with “nobles” was in Qarth where she arrived peacefully and they attempted to murder her and took advantage of her because they were greedy asshats, not by something of her doing.

      The rest of her time in Essos not with Dothraki was in Slaver’s Bay. She nor anyone was going to win over those nobles when trying to do the right thing and end slavery and completely flip their ages old customs upside down. She tried to make concessions but the Masters wouldn’t go for anything but her allowing them to be as they were. After defeating the Masters could she have stayed and slowly gained acceptance? Perhaps.

      So… noble family members of Westeros. Greyjoys, Olenna and some Tyrell bannerman, Dornish, Jon…. everyone one her side.

      The only noble people she’s had a chance to actually speak with and be around for a period of time have gone on to back her. The Tarly men chose to fight her simply because she’s a ‘foreign whore,’ even though hiding from assassination shouldn’t make her foreign. Cersei dug her fangs in and did her best to threaten lords to her side. Daenerys hasn’t been given the opportunity.

      So really, where are all the failures at winning over nobles?

        Quote  Reply

    59. BeardedOnion,

      I find it genuinely odd how some viewers’ obsession with a single character leads them to gladly warp other characters’ personalities to suit what’s best for that character.

      I mean, to suggest that Sam, one of the most moral and conscientious characters in the show, isn’t going to care that his family members were burnt alive, regardless of what he thought of them, is just absurd.

      Yes, I’m sure the thought of sweet-natured Melessa Tarly mourning her dead son will matter less to Sam than a kind word from the person who killed him.

      Plus, if Dany killing the Tarlys is going to be such an irrelevance to the plot and character relationships, then why did the producers include it at all? They could’ve just died in the battle and there’d be no controversy over it.

      But they went out of their way to have Dany burn Sam’s kin alive. And made the effort of humanising Dickon beforehand, compared to the snotty brat they’d characterised him as the previous season. And they kept Sam and Jon in the dark about it. And had the Maesters comment on how awful the situation was.

      I mean… I wonder what would it take for such people to set aside the blinkers for five minutes and consider, ‘you know what, I don’t think this one’s going to work out in Dany’s favour’?

      FWIW, I don’t think Sam will openly despise Daenerys. That’s not generally the character’s nature. And he’ll recognise the contribution she can make to the war effort.

      But I don’t expect him to join the growing list of inexplicable Daenerys Fan Club members. And I expect him to express his misgivings privately to Jon and perhaps Gilly will pipe up if she feels Sam’s unable to, like she did at the dinner at Horn Hill.

      But if Sam just brushes off the brutal execution of his own family members then that would be a real betrayal of his character and a bit of an insult to the intelligence of the viewers.

      Although, the producers have begun to make a habit of that.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Apollo: All they’d need to do is a quick 20 sec montage of troops travelling through various locations from a distance (or height), largely using CGI with a few establishing shots of men collapsing with hunger or horses dying in the extreme cold. They’ve got that huge greenscreen after al

      I agree – it wouldn’t be necessary to allot massive amount of screen time to show the passing of time, but I think it should be acknowledged somehow. Maybe comments that they’ve been on the road for weeks and no matter how far they foray or pillage the villages they pass, there’s no food to be found. That way they can remind us what a huge amount of damage has been done to the citizens as a result of these ongoing wars. I seem to remember reading that one of GRRM’s goals in the stories was to show how much devastation is done to the citizenry by constant warring. A sentence or two from Davos or Jon or even a Dothraki chieftain would do.

      IMHO, the total lack of acknowledgement of time passage makes waging war look easy and smacks of a “like it or lump it” attitude by the writers.

      Totally off-topic, but is there still a Westworld site run by WoTW? I can’t seem to find it.

        Quote  Reply

    61. BeardedOnion,

      Re. winning over the nobles.

      The reality is that Ellaria and Olenna joined Daenerys in pursuit of revenge. That was explicit in their conversation in the Season 6 finale. And that was one of the reasons the Tyrells’ bannermen deserted them, as implied in the conversation between Jaime and Randyll Tarly in Season 7.

      The Greyjoys joined Daenerys as a matter of survival.

      And I don’t even want to get into why Jon Snow bent the knee because it’s still a mystery to me. Was it love? Was it survival? Was it because he (like Tyrion) inexplicably came to the conclusion that she’ll be a great ruler based on very little on-screen evidence? A combo of all that? I don’t even know.

      So mainly she’s been reliant on the nobles desire for revenge, survival and love so far in Westeros. Not sure that’s going to work long-term.

      I could buy her winning over the rest of the Westerosi as their saviour against the White Walkers though. But I think she’s going to have stiff competition for that role.

        Quote  Reply

    62. What does Sam care about?

      From 6×03

      “SAMWELL: I said that because I want you and Little Same to be safe. That’s all I want — to become a maester so I can help Jon when the time comes so you’ll be safe

      GILLY: Us and everyone else in the world.

      SAMWELL: I don’t care about them. Well, no, I do, but I don’t really. I care about you and him.”

      According to the character himself what he really cares about is keeping the world safe for Baby Sam and Gilly.

      However he reacts to the death of his father and brother will be filtered through the experiences of how his father treated him which we all know about and how to best keep Gilly and baby Sam safe.

      Also, worth considering what the actor himself thinks about the character he protrays

      “He doesn’t see himself anymore as a Tarly. He doesn’t see himself anymore as a man of the Night’s Watch. He doesn’t see himself anymore as a maester-in-training at the Citadel. He’s not tied to anything anymore. And he certainly wouldn’t jeopardize anything between Jon and Dany because Sam knows what his father was like. I don’t think Sam would be too heartbroken over it, to be honest!”

        Quote  Reply

    63. Clob,

      Jon killed as you say, mutineers, it’s the law of the Night’s watch. Cercei is just crazy, but still calculated, her actions are evil but calculated. Dany on the other hand her “”half-evil actions” (I put it that way because I don’t see her as a evil person, only one that made bad choices, the only negative I found in her is her selfrighteousness but we all can see where that comes from back on track), her actions are always emotional, which can be a good thing or a bad thing when not keep in check. So no I don’t see her as evil.

      As for the contest. The north will choose a northerner (jon) over a southerner. The Tarly’s hold the reach, Sam and his family will definitely choose Jon over her after what happened, Sam hated his father but not his brother. Dorne is nothing left of so who knows. We can say that Tyrion holds the Rock who knows who he will choose, I think Jon more because he has a bond with him. The vale is kept by Robin, we can assume he would choose Jon. Riverlands is hold by Edmure if he lives, so he would choose Jon. So tell me who will choose Dany? Only foreigners and maybe the ironborn.

      Why I think something will happen there is the following:
      – It’s GoT, if something good happens it will follow with something horrible.
      – There are guns hanging about Dany and Jon which need to be fired.
      – If they choose for a happy ending where Dany and Jon turn out to be both the heroes and live happily after after, the whole “who-is-Jons-parents” is a total waste of time and not that important, it will not change the story at all. A conflict between Dany and Jon is needed for making that story important, there’s a reason why it is revealed, we know choose her, but in the end we choose him.

      BeardedOnion,

      This. Dickon wasn’t a bad person, Sam knows that. And what’s more important is the love he has for his sister and mother. Their feelings will matter to him. He will not choose Dany if it means it will go against the 2 female Tarlys. And I totally forgot about the Measter scene, what I remember is that they weren’t that kind worded for her, I wonder how much influence that Measters have in Westeros, if their word meant something.

      Mr Derp:
      BeardedOnion,

      One could also easily argue that Dany’s decision to kill Randyl and Dickon was perfectly justified, just as one could also argue that it was a poor decision.Either way, it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out for sure.

      Of course it was justified in a way, it’s war. The way she killed her is up to debate and if there wasn’t another option. I think when it happened she knew she was in trouble, she couldn’t take back her words, she give them a choice. But I think at that moment I think she wished she would have stated it differently, instead of killing putting in chains, but it was to late.

        Quote  Reply

    64. House Monty,

      Those 2 lady’s only backed Dany because they wanted revenge, they didn’t support her, Dany was a means to an end. They would have follow anyone who wanted to destroy Cercei. Look at the other lords, Yohn, Tarly’s, the northerners, were all against a “foreigner”.

      I don’t think Dany will turn evil, she’s not Cercei. But I think something will happen. Maybe Jon will be forced to choose duty and leave Dany.

      BeardedOnion: Yeah, she won over Dorne and the Iron Islands, two fledging powers who were always distant to the Iron Throne and the other houses. One which Varys won over for her and the other being two exiled siblings who don’t have the backing of the Iron Island nobles. Two houses who hate the Lannisters more than they like Dany.

      Good luck winning over the North, the Vale, the Westerlands and so on. The Vale and North already hate her and the Westerlands are at war with her. Varys is already questioning her and it won’t be long before Tyrion does too. Sam had his family ruined by her hand and Jon is his brother, the Stark sisters will be 50/50 if they personally like her but there’s no way in hell they’ll ever pick her over Jon.

      We’ll see what will happen, but many nobles already detest her for bringing rapists and war mongerers to their shores with fire-breathing behemoths. She’s also gained a rep for being ruthless.

      The revelation of Jon’s heritage is going to cause a shit storm and will force people to pick a side, many of the characters are instantly going to be aligned to Jon. I mean Dany’s whole shtick is about fucking over the landed rich nobles, something which isn’t going to go down well with them ever. She has a huge ego too and won’t accept being second in command.

      I don’t hate Dany, she’s awesome and pretty damn inspiring, but she’s no ruler and the show’s proven that plenty of times.

      This. We know the Dothraki that she brought aren’t evil, but for outsiders they are rapists and warmongers.

      Personally I hope she will live to see the end. But that instead of ruling she will become first in comment and liberate some other place. I think she’s a Robert. She’s a good warrior, but a bad ruler.

      Clob,

      He or she never stated it’s a failure, only that she hasn’t have that going for her. Her failures are more bad circumstances. She’s good at heart I don’t think anyone denies that. But so was her father before he turned mad. As for slavers bay, there were lords who wanted to stop slavery, she could have make a plan with them, (she did with Hizdahr but there are more lords), and before you try to end something bad (slavery) you should always have a plan to implement a new system. Look for instance at our world, we see dictatorship in the middle east, we have them freedom, they worse off than before. Doing the good thing only helps when you have a solid plan. But that’s why I find her interesting character especially in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    65. kevin1989,

      “…. I think she’s a Robert. She’s a good warrior, but a bad ruler….”

      I don’t think any of them are “good” rulers in the most ideal sense of the word. Out of all of them the best overall rulers in terms of best general outcomes would be someone like Tyrion or Varys.

      Regarding Sam’s reaction to Dickon/Randyll’s execution….I don’t think it will be morally based. I think it would be based off the effect on his family (Gilly, little Sam, his mother and sister) as well as the overall effect on outcomes in Westeros. It may parallel the choice he had Jon to make with regard to asking Roose Bolton for NW troops after Roose killed his brother in Season 5.

      With regard to winning over Westerosi nobles. Meh. True loyalty is not something that would be expected of any of them. . Robb’s hold on the Northern lords was tenuous and he got betrayed/muntineed twice (karstark and bolton). Jon’s hold on the Northern lords is tenuous and once they find out he’s part Targaryen all bets are off. As others pointed out, Dany’s control of the Mereen nobles was tenuous b/c they were slavers and she had no intention of bringing that institution back. I think the people best able to understand the shifting political dynamics of the nobility and still want to deal with them wihout being completely burned out would be someone like Tyrion or Varys. Tyrion admitted that he “liked” the game in Season 2 I believe. Also, I still suspect there will not be central ruler of Westeros in the end

        Quote  Reply

    66. kevin1989,

      “Those 2 lady’s only backed Dany because they wanted revenge, they didn’t support her, Dany was a means to an end. They would have follow anyone who wanted to destroy Cercei. Look at the other lords, Yohn, Tarly’s, the northerners, were all against a “foreigner”.”

      Jon was also against bending the knee until he got to know her. And you can’t dismiss that as motivated by revenge.

      There is literally just no evidence that people who know Daenerys refuse to support Daenerys. In fact I would say it is the opposite. All the evidence is that people who come into contact with her fall over themselves to support her.

      Literally the only people who oppose her are slavers, xenophobes and Cersei. Literally the worst of the worst.

      So, there is really is nothing to the idea that nobles… or really anyone… refuses to support her.

      There is clearly going to be a dynamic between Jon and Daenyers next year in terms of Jon’s parentage reveal.

      I just see a lot of problems with this “popularity contest” idea.

      1.) Why would anyone be even thinking about this when there is an army of ice demons coming down on you?
      2.) Why would Jon even be focused on this? Jon is not Stannis. He is not duty obsessed where he thinks well I am King I have a duty to be King. Jon is mission obsessed. The only thing he cares about is his mission of beating the White Walkers. He is also honor obsessed. He already bent the knee and did so very publicly. He is not a man who goes back on his word.
      3.) Since when does Westerosi politics even function as a popularity contest?
      4.) Why do we believe that a couple that has fallen in love wouldn’t just work this out amongst themselves?
      5.) We see that Dany is still super powerful after the battles up North as the Unsullied and Dothraki are still around. So one of the ideas thrown out earlier that she would be decimated and force this to go to a popularity contest already seems invalid.

        Quote  Reply

    67. kevin1989,

      “….. If they choose for a happy ending where Dany and Jon turn out to be both the heroes and live happily after after, the whole “who-is-Jons-parents” is a total waste of time and not that important, it will not change the story at all. A conflict between Dany and Jon is needed for making that story important, there’s a reason why it is revealed, we know choose her, but in the end we choose him.”

      I’m not sure on what scale the importance of Jon’s parentage will play out. It’s personally important to him, b/c he lived his life as a bastard. Knowing who his real parents are would be a huge deal to the story in terms of how it affects him personally apart from any bearing it had on others. In terms of the Iron Throne succession…it could create conflict between him and Dany or him and other Westerosi lords, but his being Targaryen is just as much a detriment as it is an asset. Do we have any indication that any of the remaining Westerosi nobility would be accepting of a Targaryen ruler? With regard to possible conflict with Dany over it…I tend to agree with part of Inga’s earlier statement regarding Dany and the need for the Iron Throne.

      “….And IMO, this whole setup is to break Dany’s self-confidence, to make her reassess her actions and desires and to realise that she always wanted HOME, not the throne…”

      I think by the end Dany’s priority will not be the throne. I feel we saw part of this through her comments in the Dragonpit from S7. And again, I suspect there may not be a central Westerosi ruler at the end….

        Quote  Reply

    68. Just hadda toss in that I fully agreed with Krupke, Clob, & House Monty. 😉 I think. Wish there were up-votes on these comments.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Most of the comments in this argument seem to be assuming that Jon and Dany can’t rule together as King and Queen. But I think that they would, especially if Dany is pregnant which I believe she is. Sure, there may be a little drama between them, but nothing they can’t work out.

      Whether they both live to the end, that’s a different story altogether. I feel like it’s inevitable that one of them dies unfortunately, although I really hope that’s not the case as I love both characters.

        Quote  Reply

    70. House Monty,

      Jon only bend the knee because of her looks, even Davos stated he looked at her cleavage. And how do you think Jon react when he finds out about her burning people alive, even some actions in Essos. He only knows one side of her now, what will happen when she has one of her tantrums. I don’t hate her, because I’m almost like her with her outburst I understand where it’s coming from, but I also know the outcome of such actions. (I mean the impulsive emotional actions).

      But if everything will be happy after after why include the following scenes:
      – Jon’s parentage
      – Tyrion’s doubt about Dany, and varys statement that Dany will only be a good leader when she has advisors to advise her and keep her dark impulses in check. They have doubts.
      – The many nobles in the north that made very clear that they will never bend the knee for Dany (also Yohn so the earie will never support her), and that Jon is a fool and they should have chosen Sansa instead. It was clear that Sansa didn’t really like what Jon did. Even Arya had her doubts, only she wanted to wait till he’s back at home. That means if Jon keeps on defending Dany, he will lose his army of northern men and the army of the Vale.
      – The scene with the Measters, it’s clear they don’t like Dany, and they never choose her. They don’t like her actions, they will probably use their power (which they have people in Westeros trust them), if they choose to send ravens to the lords about what happen to the Tarlys and emphasize the connection to her father, she’s fucked. We know she’s not her father but the connection is easily made.
      – The statement of Bran: He’s never been a bastard. He’s the heir to the Iron Throne. He needs to know. We need to tell him.
      Bran is going to tell him and probably even the northern lords and Yohn. You can fill in the blanks what will happen next.

      I’m not saying Dany is a bad person I never stated it, but people who think this is going to have an happy ending for Dany next season should really need to pay attention the set-ups they put in the last season. (and WoW episode) there’s a reason why they included those scenes, it’s important for the last season.

      And I forgot to answer the questions:
      1. Look how the northerns and Yohn reacted in season 7, even when they prepare for the WW invasion they are squabbling among themselves. They care more about their ego’s and about the past than what’s going to happen next. For them the southern invasion is real, the northern treat is maybe a farce.
      2. Like I said he will be forced. Let Dany go and we stay with you with our army and win against the WW or choose her and we’re going away with our army and you will lose against the WW. We can assume that he will choose her, but then we can expect the northern lords to turn their army against the Dothraki. He’s going to have a real problem on his hands with those lords.
      3. In war it was always a popularity contest. Look at Robert’s rebellion. Robert won because of that reasons, Many kingdoms chose him above the Mad King.
      4. I don’t think he really fallen in love. He only knows one part of her. We don’t know how he will feel after he knows the whole truth, burning people alive, Sam giving his advise. When he found out that Mel match made them.
      5. Yes she has foreign armies. But not one Westerosi army. Dorne and the reach are gone. The Vale, the north are backing up Sansa and Sansa will never choose Dany. Jaime choose probably her, but his army is in the hands of Cercei. the stormlands has no armie as far as we know. The Riverlands idem dito, but still they will choose Sansa above the rest.

      krupke,
      It’s stretched for 7 seasons, so it’s not only personal reason. And the end scene with Bran made it clear that it will be a plotpoint. Bran is going to tell anyone about Jon’s parentage, once that has been revealed, the domino effect will start. The kingdoms will force Jon to choose duty over love, which he always does.

      About the Targaryen part: The North and the Vale know Jon, they know how he is as a person, they have his reputation as lord commander. They chose him at the end of season 6 because of his character. They will see him as a Stark, which could use his Targ side to get the throne. As for Dany, she burned the Tarly’s alive. Justified, but that news can fuel the “she’s the mad-kings daughter” rumors. People are afraid of her (Even when it’s not justified)

      And I hope that the Home part will come true, that everything together Dany choose to step aside for Jon.

      I understand you hope for a happy ending where they both rule, but the set-ups in season 7 made it clear that that will never happen. Those set-ups are there for a reason: her fall. You can argue that that’s not going to happen but then you filter the set-ups from season 7 and you must look at every one: Tyrion Varys scene, Measters scene, northern scene. there are more set-ups for her fall than her winning.

      And a writerspart why I think the tables will be switched is the following. 2 things happen in season 7: Jon bend the knee and the revelation of his past.
      If they wanted the outcome to be Dany be the queen at the end, and Jon bending his knee to her. They would have had the revelation first, so that we would think, oh Jon is the true king. Then they would have had the bend the knee scene, so that we thought he would step aside for her. but they chose to first let him bend the knee and after that have the revelation, the revelation is the change of the story. first we have her as the Queen, after the revelation the story changed by having him as the true King.

      Look at the internet where literature’s and other film scholars analyse season 7. It’s all about the writing and when they reveal stuff.

        Quote  Reply

    71. kevin1989,

      “Jon only bend the knee because of her looks, even Davos stated he looked at her cleavage”

      I am sorry. I cannot take your opinion seriously after that comment. It shows an utter lack of understanding for both what the narrative was conveying and who Jon Snow is as a character.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Undead Elephant:
      Most of the comments in this argument seem to be assuming that Jon and Dany can’t rule together as King and Queen. But I think that they would, especially if Dany is pregnant which I believe she is. Sure, there may be a little drama between them, but nothing they can’t work out.

      Whether they both live to the end, that’s a different story altogether. I feel like it’s inevitable that one of them dies unfortunately, although I really hope that’s not the case as I love both characters.

      This is pretty much how I see it.

      Some in the fandom, the diehard Dany fans and diehard Jon fans, “can’t see them ruling together” because it’d take away from the glory of their favourite, they don’t want to share!

      I like both characters but I’m of the school that they won’t both survive. If Dany is pregnant, as speculated, she’ll survive to bring the baby into this (well, their) world. A powerful symbol of new hope after everything they all have suffered.

      Also, I think Jon is already on borrowed time. He was dead, remember? I think he was brought back for one thing and one thing only: to defeat Winter and save mankind. The Prince that was promised. Not the king that was promised. He wasn’t brought back to have a happy family life with his lovely wife and several adorable kids. He’s the Targaryen “prophecy baby”, the circumstances of whose begetting resulted in Robert’s Rebellion, which, in turn, lay the groundwork for the War of the Five Kings etc. Poor Jon.

      Jon dying – or just MIA after the War ends – would also force Dany to become a ruler instead of an adulated liberator/fearsome conqueror. Her previous experiment at ruling in Meereen wasn’t all that, maybe by the time this ends, she will have learned something? And continue to learn.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Apollo,

      It’s kind of monotonous that we just saw them leaving KL for Winterfell and they will end up going back there already sometime in the next 3 episodes.

        Quote  Reply

    74. House Monty:
      kevin1989,

      “Jon only bend the knee because of her looks, even Davos stated he looked at her cleavage”

      I am sorry. I cannot take your opinion seriously after that comment. It shows an utter lack of understanding for both what the narrative was conveying and who Jon Snow is as a character.

      Maybe you should focus on the rest? dismiss all the evidence because of one comment. What I meant was that his love for Dany isn’t on the same level as that of Ygritte, Ygritte he build his love, he get to know who Ygritte was. As for Dany, he only saw one side of her, the heroic side. He never saw the other side of her, her dark side. He hell in love with that side of her, not the complete Dany. He saw a beautiful woman with some good personal aspects that he like. But I’m not convinced he is in love with Dany as he was in love with Ygritte, and im not convinced she’s in love with him as she was in love with Drogo or Daario. For me his love is connected with what happened in Beyond the wall, she saved him and that build his love. I could be wrong, we should see next season, and if you’re right I will have no problem with that, as long as it is portrait good.

      And if you know Jon Snow as a character you know he never want anything to do with incestuous behavior. So what do you think happen once he find out Dany is his aunt? How will he react once duty calls? How will he react if he have to choose his duty as leader of the north and his love for Dany? People are under the impression that he will choose her. He didn’t choose Ygritte and choose duty over her, why would that be different now? (only if Dany is pregnant, being a parent is a different kind of duty that’s more important). and maybe he will choose her and by that losing a big portion of his army. but there will be a mayor conflict that’s connected to her. Will he stand by her or the rest is the big question.

      And to answer to your comment, how can you say that you dismiss my whole opinion of multiple points, because of one statement? What if the rest is true (not saying I’m probably I’m wrong, probably we’re all wrong and they have something else in mind that we didn’t think of). That you dismiss my statement ok, but give some arguments why you think he really loves her. (something from season 7 not because of a baby because that’s guessing something I didn’t do, I kept with points from season 7), convince me. But dismiss the rest because of that statement is something I don’t understand. nobody share 100% the opinion of another, and dismissing 99% of somebody’s opinion because of 1% of their opinion (Which maybe wasn’t meant that way) is something I never would do.

      So give me some arguments and convince me, instead of focusing on one misplaced comment.

        Quote  Reply

    75. talvikorppi: This is pretty much how I see it.

      Some in the fandom, the diehard Dany fans and diehard Jon fans, “can’t see them ruling together” because it’d take away from the glory of their favourite, they don’t want to share!

      I like both characters but I’m of the school that they won’t both survive. If Dany is pregnant, as speculated, she’ll survive to bring the baby into this (well, their) world. A powerful symbol of new hope after everything they all have suffered.

      Also, I think Jon is already on borrowed time. He was dead, remember? I think he was brought back for one thing and one thing only: to defeat Winter and save mankind. The Prince that was promised. Not the king that was promised. He wasn’t brought back to have a happy family life with his lovely wife and several adorable kids. He’s the Targaryen “prophecy baby”, the circumstances of whose begetting resulted in Robert’s Rebellion, which, in turn, lay the groundwork for the War of the Five Kings etc. Poor Jon.

      Jon dying – or just MIA after the War ends – would also force Dany to become a ruler instead of an adulated liberator/fearsome conqueror. Her previous experiment at ruling in Meereen wasn’t all that, maybe by the time this ends, she will have learned something? And continue to learn.

      Not true, I like them both. And I wouldn’t mind if they rule together. It only doesn’t made sense storywise with all the revelations and set-ups. The only argument I would think would work is that Dany is pregnant, Jon and Dany both die. but because both are Targs and not bastards (with the revelation of Jon) their child isn’t a bastard either and can be king.

      And I’m with you when it comes to the prince that was promised.

        Quote  Reply

    76. kevin1989,

      What’s not true??

      Do you mean loud and outspoken Dany superfans and loud and outspoken Jon superfans agreeing on only one thing: that they cannot rule together! Because their particular fanboy/girl should rule alone and have all the glory and the other one is just a red herring or evil or stupid or whatever. There’s a lot of that around the interwebs.

      I never meant to imply you are one of those blinkered and strident superfans, sorry if it came across that way. My comment wasn’t even directed at you but to Undead Elephant.

      Like you, I like both Dany and Jon. I won’t mind one or the other becoming the monarch, or even both together. OK, to be completely honest, Jon dying (again, and this time permanently) would give me more of a gut punch than Dany dying… But, like I said, Jon is already on borrowed time, and if Dany’s pregnant… Well, you can kind of see where that’s going.

      If (and that is an if) Dany becomes the sole monarch after all the wars are done, that might not be all that glorious. Westeros is a wreck and there’s a lot of work to be done, lots of reconciliation (not necessarily one of Dany’s big fortes), lots of rebuilding, lots of starving people etc. Being Queen isn’t a fun job and she’ll face lots of (unfair) criticism and complaints, whatever she does. So maybe Jon’s best out of it, dead, lol! He gets to be the young heroic hero forevermore and she gets to pick up the pieces and mend the broken realm through years and years of tedious hard graft.

        Quote  Reply

    77. I got a crazy idea after watching an episode of the twilight zone written by gorge RR Martin.. I suggest you all watch that to see how his mind works… But what if Bran Changes something in the past to fix all the events which have been spinning out of control since the first episode.. I mean there was a reason bran was shown how he could affect time with Hodor. the name of the episode is The Once and Future King (The Twilight Zone)…Just food for thought…also You are all forgetting about the next in line for the throne. King Of The Baked Goods (Hot Pie)

        Quote  Reply

    78. kevin1989,

      “….It’s stretched for 7 seasons, so it’s not only personal reason. And the end scene with Bran made it clear that it will be a plotpoint….”

      I didn’t say it wouldn’t be a plotpoint. In fact, one of the scenarios I proposed said Jon’s personal reaction to it would be a significant plot point in and of itself because of how being a bastard affected him.

      “….About the Targaryen part: The North and the Vale know Jon, they know how he is as a person, they have his reputation as lord commander. They chose him at the end of season 6 because of his character. …”

      They also griped about his choices from the beginning of S7 and were close to switching allegiance to Sansa by the end of S7. Like I said, I don’t put much faith in procuring loyalty from the nobility. If they feel they have a better option than Dany or Jon, then they will take it.

      “…..I understand you hope for a happy ending where they both rule, but the set-ups in season 7 made it clear that that will never happen. …..”

      Actually, I see an ending where there is no central Westerosi ruler to be just as likely as there being one. And while I love Dany and Jon (and the Dany/Jon ‘ship), I still think those best suited to rule would be someone like Tyrion or Varys.

        Quote  Reply

    79. talvikorppi:
      kevin1989,

      What’s not true??

      Do you mean loud and outspoken Dany superfans and loud and outspoken Jon superfans agreeing on only one thing: that they cannot rule together! Because their particular fanboy/girl should rule alone and have all the glory and the other one is just a red herring or evil or stupid or whatever. There’s a lot of that around the interwebs.

      I never meant to imply you are one of those blinkered and strident superfans, sorry if it came across that way. My comment wasn’t even directed at you but to Undead Elephant.

      Like you, I like both Dany and Jon. I won’t mind one or the other becoming the monarch, or even both together. OK, to be completely honest, Jon dying (again, and this time permanently) would give me more of a gut punch than Dany dying… But, like I said, Jon is already on borrowed time, and if Dany’s pregnant… Well, you can kind of see where that’s going.

      If (and that is an if) Dany becomes the sole monarch after all the wars are done, that might not be all that glorious. Westeros is a wreck and there’s a lot of work to be done, lots of reconciliation (not necessarily one of Dany’s big fortes), lots of rebuilding, lots of starving people etc. Being Queen isn’t a fun job and she’ll face lots of (unfair) criticism and complaints, whatever she does. So maybe Jon’s best out of it, dead, lol! He gets to be the young heroic hero forevermore and she gets to pick up the pieces and mend the broken realm through years and years of tedious hard graft.

      No worries, I don’t felt attacked. I just stated that some think more in terms of story instead of which character they liked the most. And you’re right of course some people are too much of a fanboy, but luckily for me I like a lot of characters only on a different way. And my favorite is Jaime and luckily he’s not heavily debated right now.

      And I’m with you, if I would decide what happened in season 8 I would destroy the monarch and giving some sort of revolution that’s closer to democracy.

      And true, some people really hate Dany or Jon or other characters that I think, you can dislike a character but hate gets to far. I only try to think like a character in the show/books. What if I was Yohn or Sam or Sansa how would they think in a moment like that. GoT is much more complicated. And yes I think Dany will become a fallen hero (not a villain she would never be that), it will not be her fault, it will be the forces from outside that destroys her. But whenever I tried to be objective (if i was subjective she would rule happily after after with Jon but it’s D&D and GRRM writing that story, I don’t think we get that happy disney ending), people somehow think I hate her and get called a Danny hater.

      krupke:
      kevin1989,

      “….It’s stretched for 7 seasons, so it’s not only personal reason. And the end scene with Bran made it clear that it will be a plotpoint….”

      I didn’t say it wouldn’t be a plotpoint.In fact, one of the scenarios I proposed said Jon’s personal reaction to it would be asignificant plot point in and of itself because of how being a bastard affected him.

      “….About the Targaryen part: The North and the Vale know Jon, they know how he is as a person, they have his reputation as lord commander. They chose him at the end of season 6 because of his character. …”

      They also griped about his choices from the beginning of S7 and were close to switching allegiance to Sansa by the end of S7.Like I said, I don’t put much faith in procuring loyalty from the nobility.If they feel they have a better option than Dany or Jon, then they will take it.

      “…..I understand you hope for a happy ending where they both rule, but the set-ups in season 7 made it clear that that will never happen. …..”

      Actually, I see an ending where there is no central Westerosi ruler to be just as likely as therebeing one.And while I love Dany and Jon(and the Dany/Jon ‘ship), I still think those best suited to rule would be someone like Tyrion or Varys.

      about first part: Maybe the plotpoint is that if Jon rule he will dismantle the use of bastard, that he learned that. Sorry if I come over as hostile, I just like discussing GoT and I have a certain way (sometimes little bit too far) to express that.

      True about the nobels, but that’s my point. The nobles hold the army not Jon or Dany. Whoever the nobles decide to follow have the army. Somehow they have power over Jon. And we all know they are some stuborn (and maybe stupid) people. I think the wisest is the youngest lord. They probably rather die than follow Dany for what her father did. So I’m not saying Dany is in trouble because of Dany, but because of those lords with their closed minds. but maybe there’s some luck and those lords will be wights at the beginning of the season. Would be nice if they choose to leave because of her, the left and 5 minutes later in the episode they are greeting with our cold friend. And than the last word of one of the lords should be: Fuck me, I should have chosen that foreign whore.

      and I like that your mind is the same when it comes about the ruling at the end. I would love to see those 2 rule. Could be a spin-off: The tales of the Imp and the Eunuch.

      What I hope for is something like this: Every kingdom has their own way of choosing their leader (warden) and their rules. Those 7 rulers (8 if KL had their own ruler) rule together. the power is not 100% in the hands of one person.

      I don’t know what historic speaking the following step is.

        Quote  Reply

    80. krupke: Out of all of them the best overall rulers in terms of best general outcomes would be someone like Tyrion or Varys.

      Acme has made a strong case for Tywin being a distasteful human being but a good ruler, in his former role as Hand of the King.

        Quote  Reply

    81. I still have absolutely no predictions for how Dany’s story will conclude.
      Shes just the most difficult character to place in this intricate web of stories. Every other character, I think I have some idea, but with Dany… I just cannot say.
      I just want her end to be meaningful and dramatically satisfying.

        Quote  Reply

    Jump to the Top

    Leave a Reply

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *