Game of Thrones gets theatrical; plus massive spoilers for season six!

Carme 2

Game of Thrones filming in Girona, Spain the last few days has been very visible around the Plaça dels Jurats, where a stage has been created. Actors portraying the theatre troupe members arrived this week, and new video footage gives us a better glimpse at a scene for season 6.

We’ve also managed to identify some new cast members, thanks to the efforts of the Watchers on the Wall community, and will be sharing some major season six spoilers as well.

WotW reader Carme has shared with us videos and images of the theater scene shooting in Girona.  (Spoilers!)

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PowellThe actors are playing theatrical versions of Westerosi characters we know well, such as Cersei, Robert, Ned and more. Los Siete Reinos discovered a few photos of troupe actors in the news in addition to these ones, but so be sure to check out their photos today. L7R’s info indicates that Arya isn’t part of the theatre troupe during the scenes being shot this week, merely an observer. The troupe however is around for three episodes, based on the casting call we saw, so it still seems like Arya may join them.

Our readers did some searching to discover who was playing the troupe performers and came up with a few names.

The actress with a red wig looks to be the troupe’s version of Sansa Stark for their play. WotW reader Dark Sister identified her as Eline Powell. The looks are a close match, and the clincher is that Powell has just started following on Twitter three other Game of Thrones actors in the theatre scene.

Powell starred in the film Anita B. and will be appearing in the upcoming Knights of the Roundtable: King Arthur. 

Eva Butterly
Anderson and Butterly – Girona filming

The brunette-wigged woman spotted this week who looks to be portraying Margaery in the troupe is actress Eva Butterly.

WotW reader Morgan made the find in this case.

Butterly’s acting school congratulated her on her casting on the show in a tweet, and then to seal the matter, Butterly also shared this photo on Instagram, of her with costars Ross Anderson and Brendan O’Rourke in Girona.

Funniest night I’ve had in a long time! Thanks lads x A photo posted by Eva Butterly (@evabutterly) on

 


Another casting that has surfaced is English actor Michael Heath. He is credited for the role of Kesh on IMDB and his Spotlight CV, in a Daniel Sackheim episode.  Kesh is not a familiar character from the ASOIAF novels, and so it’s not clear what part exactly Heath is playing. Sackheim is directing episodes 3 and 4 next season, and was seen in Girona recently, directing an Arya-centered scene. (SPOILERS at this link.)    Thanks to WotW reader Freyjoy for the Heath find! 


Maisie Williams has of course had a busy week with all this Braavos-in-Girona shooting. She shared this wild-haired photo yesterday after finishing work. 

When ur post-filming hair is all fuzzy, but u still rockin it anyways??   A photo posted by @maisie_williams on


And now for something completely different… We’ve heard some information from the filming up in Northern Ireland. It does contain spoilers so beware!

MAJOR SPOILERS:

Sources report that today Game of Thrones is filming portions of a massive battle in Saintfield, Northern Ireland, that will likely be a part of episode nine. Preparations and the beginning of filming were seen in that area recently, but it was difficult to glean many details. We’ve learned that the battle will involve many northern armies fighting including the Umbers, the Boltons, wildlings and more! The true major spoiler is this: Kit Harington a.k.a Jon Snow was also seen at the location, participating in shooting this week. Harington has been spotted in Belfast again recently, along with Iwan Rheon, so it’s not too shocking Harington is filming Game of Thrones.  Looks like Game of Thrones is planning another huge battle for the ever-important episode nine. I won’t call it the biggest one of all yet, not unless dragons show up. Have not heard anything about dragons showing up, alas.

UPDATE: One more Girona detail. Guess who has arrived in town? John Bradley and Hannah Murray!

Thanks for finding the pic, Dark Sister!

Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com

538 Comments

  1. I’m assuming Melisandre will be the resurrected Jon’s right hand and this time, they will successfully take Winterfell?

  2. So Jon will lead the wildlings, join the other northern lords and then bitch-slap the Boltons? Sounds exciting.

  3. Technically, anything Kit is in, especially this year with Bran back, could be a vision or a flashback. So I don’t know why it’s much of a spoiler.

  4. Wowza. I’m continuously impressed by how much information you folks obtain.

    I’m curious, was there any evidence of undead/white walker extras at the major battle, or was everyone still human?
  5. sorry my English is bad, I’m afraid I do not understand
    Kit was seen on the battle film set? Or “just” in Belfast?

    —————————

    désolé mon anglais est mauvais, j’ai peur de ne pas avoir compris
    Kit a été vu sur le plateau de tournage de la bataille ? Ou “juste” à Belfast ?

  6. So Jon, the Northern lords, the wildlings (and the Vale, maybe?) will take on the Boltons and hopefully conquer Winterfell by the end of the season! Wow. Jon better kill Ramsay; it’s been set up, especially in the books.

  7. Fez,

    They didn’t mention anything about wights/White Walkers. Seems like they would have if that was the case. Sounded like a big-ass Northern battle to me.

    Sam, Technically, anything Kit is in, especially this year with Bran back, could be a vision or a flashback. So I don’t know why it’s much of a spoiler.

    This isn’t a vision or a flashback.

  8. Looks like we’re back to the “event” episode being the ninth. That battle scene sounds crazy. Is it Umbers + wildlings vs. the Boltons? Because if Jon’s in the mix, and presumably the wildlings are on his side, that’s the only configuration that makes sense to me. I’m guessing this will be a Ramsay vs. Jon showdown, which makes sense given the picture of Kit Harington and Iwan Rheon hanging out posted.

    Also, the “and more” in terms of the Northern armies could reference the Vale forces, if they weren’t specifically mentioned here. Is Aiden Gillan or Rupert Vansittart (Yohn Royce) in the vicinity? I know Vansittart was supposed to be filming in July and December, so it seems unlikely.

    I wonder if Brienne and/or Sansa are with the Northerners by the time the battle rolls around, or if one or both of them have headed back to the Riverlands by this point. Are Gwendoline Christie, Sophie Turner, or Art Parkinson anywhere in the vicinity of the battle?

    Eline Powell, aka “Sansa” (or the person we think is “Sansa”), is gorgeous. She would have made a fine Lyanna, if that’s indeed who the “Young Stunner” is.

  9. I wonder if the White Walkers will be involved too. How cool would it be to have all the North (even Boltons) and Wildlings fight agains the White Walker army. They did promise a WW scene that would make Hardhome look like childs’ play.

  10. Sue the Fury,

    Agree. In response to OP, we know Jon’s story, so it cant be a flashback…and if it is a vision from Bran, then it is of an event to come…which still means that Jon is alive and this still qualifies as a major spoiler.

  11. Bard:
    TWOW gets spoiled and spoiled and…

    Seriously, who cares if it’s in TWOW? Huge battle scene between all the (human) northern factions, including a likely Ramsay vs. Jon showdown? HERE FOR IT.

  12. If the Wall was to fall, would Winterfell be the next line of defense? Would Jon and the Watchers regroup there?

  13. To that person who said a vision or flashback. How can it be a flashback? to that time where Jon Snow was in a battle with Northern lords? we’ve followed him since he was a kid at Winterfell! lol. And a vision would mean Jon is back regardless, so that’s good :).

  14. Mieux:
    sorry my English is bad, I’m afraid I do not understand
    Kit was seen on the battle film set? Or “just” in Belfast?

    —————————

    désolé mon anglais est mauvais, j’ai peur de ne pas avoir compris
    Kit a été vu sur le plateau de tournage de la bataille ? Ou “juste” à Belfast ?

    Mieux,

    Mon francais est vachement terrible ces jours, mais on y va.

    Les gens avez vu Kit sur le plateau de tournage de la bataille. Pas seulement a Belfast.

  15. Thanks Sue!

    Well, there likely goes my thought that Jon will be forced to team up with the Boltons to fight off the White Walkers. Or of there being a three-way battle.

    Also, if this is episode 9 and people are still fighting each other, I guess that means the Wall isn’t coming down next season. Unless its an episode 10 cliffhanger sort of thing.

    So much to digest!

  16. Ross:
    This is all very cool but…. damn my lack of willpower!

    I will not watch the theater troupe videos. I will not watch the theater troupe videos. I will not watch the theater troupe videos… >_<

    But go figure I'm all for Jon Snow spoilers! Bring 'em on! 😀
  17. Sam,

    Yes, but for a flashback, the only 2 things Bran could possibly see Jon in a battle scenario would be the battle for the Wall and Hardhome. Neither of which resemble Saintfield. As for a future “seeing”, that would implicitly imply that Jon lives, or is resurrected by Melisandre. Both of which would point to a major spoiler. Or not, since most everyone knows that Jon Snow LIVES!!! (sorry, couldn’t resist.)

  18. Ok, I know a lot of folks have been at least throwing around the idea of Jon helping to lead an army, possibly including wildlings, to help take back Winterfell from the Boltons, after he’s resurrected, that is, but reading what I just read…

    Well, my heart started beating faster, and I almost started bouncing off the back of my chair.

    Holy. Shit.

  19. Is it possible to have a summary of all the new casting members of GOT so far? It would be very helpful. Maybe a map of all of them categorised in directors (whenever it is possible). It will give us a better perspective…

  20. I fear, we will not see the dragons on set this year… because they are usually not on set 😛 But Kit being there in a battle-scene is a huge and very welcomed spoiler 🙂

  21. Sue the Fury: Perfect.

    Everyone watch out and see if the Green Bay Packers managed to worm their way into this one they way they did “Pitch Perfect 2.”

    Oh, and since someone has to say it, THIS CONFIRMS DEEPWOOD MOTTE. GET HYPE.

  22. Roose is Azor Ahai:
    SNOWBOWL!!!!!

    LOL, I love it.

    Whoever said upthread that Jon and Melisandre will take Winterfell I suspect is on the money. Based on these spoilers, it seems likely that Season 6 will close out with the Bolton forces wiped out and the Starks retaking Winterfell.

    The spoilers about “Bolton forces” participating in this battle raise an interesting question, though. The assumption for some fans had been that Littlefinger would show up to Winterfell with the Vale forces and clean out the Boltons. However, we know that by 6×09, the Bolton forces are fighting in this big battle, and it also seems like there’s a good chance that Ramsay is still alive by that point. So I guess my question is…what happened to the Vale forces? Do they never make it to Winterfell? Do they bypass Winterfell entirely and link up with the Northerners? Do they make it to Winterfell only to get the Team Baratheon treatment? We know that Yohn Royce is filming in December, so presumably the Vale forces are around the North, but I’m having trouble figuring out what happens to that plot.

  23. Mihnea,

    Oh how I hope you’re right and Jon kills Ramsay….though it would be even better if Sansa or Theon did, but I doubt either one will have the opportunity.

  24. I feel well spoiled now. Seeing actual future show stuff is exciting even if it’s from just a side angle. I hope we can catch more of the theater stuff. I wonder what Arya is up to. Maisie was all covered up yesterday and her hair looked bigger than its ever been on the show.

  25. M:
    Looks like we’re back to the “event” episode being the ninth.

    I think they never left that concept. I think Daznak’s pit was supposed to be the single most impressive stunner of the series, with the Hardhome battle being somewhat of a lesser peak. (They needed For The Watch to be in the last episode for cliffhanger reasons.)
    I think they underestimated Hardhome – the impact the battle would have on audiences, especially in comparison with Daznak’s Pit. Maybe this is also why they did’t nominate it for the directing Emmy.

  26. Balerion The Cat,

    You know what? It would be better for drama if episode 9 is battle humans vs humans and then the White Walkers suddenly appear! It also seems that the Night’s Watch might abandon the Wall (knowing they can’t protect it from TWW). In this case, season 7 is TWW heading south and hopefully Dany and her army will get in their way! 😀

  27. winnie,

    It would be justice if Sansa/Theon did it, but it is very unlikely they could get close to him, and for that metter I don’t think they even want to personally kill Ramsey. I doubt they want to see Ramsey, ever again. So Jon killing him, seams a fitting end for me.

  28. Hodor’s Bastard,

    You just made me remember that Sapochnik is the director of that episode I can’t get anymore exited now! Thanks WotW for this info once again! This place has really been incredible in the last couple of weeks

  29. Theon does not deserve to kill Ramsay. Think of how many people he betrayed to Ramsay as Reek last season. Ramsay should be killed by somebody stronger than he is, somebody who can make him know fear. I always wanted it to be Melisandre, who could finish him off with black magic, but at this point, anybody will do. Anybody but Theon.

  30. Melisandre saws the Boltons flags burnin and she saw himself walking in Winterfell. Jon’s revenge is coming!!!!

  31. Amazing news. But if is episode 9 we wont have Euron attacking Oldtown this season. Or we will have in a minor scale.

  32. Unless Theon doubles back to the North after going to the Iron Islands, it seems he won’t get to witness Ramsay getting his comeuppance. Depending on where Sansa winds up, she might not get to do so, either.

    So, Resurrected Jon abandons the NW and heads south with Melisandre and the wildlings to help the Umbers and the other loyalists wipe out the Boltons. He wins and takes Winterfell, as Melisandre (sort of) prophesied…only for the remaining NW to be completely overwhelmed by WW and the Wall to be brought down. Sounds about right?

  33. Galli:
    I’m assuming Melisandre will be the resurrected Jon’s right hand and this time, they will successfully take Winterfell?

    She saw herself walking the walls of Winterfell…

    And this is just going to be all kinds of awesome-sauce:
    We’ve learned that the battle will involve many northern armies fighting including the Umbers, the Boltons, wildlings and more! The true major spoiler is this: Kit Harington a.k.a Jon Snow was also seen at the location, participating in shooting this week.

    Holy seven hells – can’t wait! Plus we’ve got the Ember Island Players Braavos Edition, CleganeBowl (maybe), Euron, dragons twice as large as last year, Tower of Joy, new Dothraki hordes, a wolfpack…

    Yeah, you could say I’ve #GOTHYPE

  34. The theater troupe KL play sounds like the Westerosi equivalent of a Saturday Night Live sketch – can’t wait to see that. 🙂

    Bastard Snowbowl will be awesome, but Jon killing Ramsey and taking over Winterfell shouldn’t be taken as a obvious outcome. It seemed so logical Stannis would triumph at the beginning of S5, and look what happened. Jon’s war against the Boltons could end up in another clusterfiesta. We’ll see what happens.

    I do wonder where Sansa, Brienne, Pod, Davos, Osha and Rickon are in this scenario. It would be ironic to have Jon retake Winterfell – except the people who would have benefited the most from the victory aren’t even there!

    Thank you Sue for all the S6 news.

  35. Also….I really don’t think people realize what a force the Boltons are. I’m predicting that either Roose or Ramsay, if not both, survive S6. Didn’t Alfie Allen mention something about the Boltons being around for a long time to come? I want them to ‘get theirs’, but I don’t think it’ll happen yet.

    I really have to give it to Kit Harington – last season really made me give a fuck about Jon. This news makes me smile. 🙂

  36. I don’t see how you can come to that conclusion? And anyway- there’s been nothing to indicate Euron will attack Oldtown on the show..

    Aguero:
    Amazing news. But if is episode 9 we wont have Euron attacking Oldtown this season. Or we will have in a minor scale.

  37. Galli,

    Have we heard anything about Carice filming yet? I really hope what you said is true, but I’ve also had a bad feeling she could be an early season death by either the resurrection spell or Davos’ hand. Her vision about seeing herself walking in Winterfell gives me hope she’ll make it out though!

  38. Galli:
    Ramsay should be killed by somebody stronger than he is, somebody who can make him know fear.

    Perfect! Yes, Ramsay needs to become familiar with the type of terror that he inflicted on others.

    The amount of information that this site has uncovered in the last two weeks is staggering. It seems that there is a new “scoop” every few hours. Well done! I’m sure that it involves a great deal of effort.

  39. Making the 8:
    And the late Walder Frey will sadly not show up for the battle in time

    Oh, I hope the Frey fuckers are marching north toward the Winterfell melee when they get attacked by a wolfpack and a band of brothers… 🙂

  40. Pigeon,

    I agree with you that one of Boltons will survive. I think their forces will be split. Vale forces could be approaching Winterfell so Roose sends Ramsay with troops to head them off then the northern families and wildlings ally and march on Winterfell causing Roose to shit his pants.

    Maybe the northerners show up first because I don’t see Roose leaving his walls of protection for open field conflict but he would send Ramsay out there quicker than you could impregnate fat walda. So Ramsay will die and Roose will escape with his remaining contingent to the Frey where he will find they have all been eaten by an insanely large pack of wolves.

  41. If it is true that Jon Snow is dead I really want to find what name the character that Kitt plays has.

    TargarienBowl???

  42. I wonder if this northern battle will be something like the ASOIAF version of the Battle of Five Armies from The Hobbit? Could you imagine? – Stark Loyalists vs. Boltons vs. Wildlings vs. The Vale vs. White Walkers

    Dang.

  43. Making the 8:
    Pigeon,

    I agree with you that one of Boltons will survive. I think their forces will be split. Vale forces could be approaching Winterfell so Roose sends Ramsay with troops to head them off then the northern families and wildlings ally and march on Winterfell causing Roose to shit his pants.

    Maybe the northerners show up first because I don’t see Roose leaving his walls of protection for open field conflict but he would send Ramsay out there quicker than you could impregnate fat walda. So Ramsay will die and Roose will escape with his remaining contingent to the Frey where he will find they have all been eaten by an insanely large pack of wolves.

    Oh, hell yeah. Grabbing the popcorn and wine.

  44. Akash Singh,

    I don’t see the lines of communication being clear enough for all of those factions to form an alliance. The Vale is coming in from the Neck, the Loyalists are spread around (not sure where they will amass relative to Winterfell’s location), the Wildlings are presumably in The Gift, probably trying to get further south, and will be an unwelcome surprise to any of these other factions. I doubt we will see clean 2-sided battle if more than two of these armies are involved.

  45. This is very exciting news! I do hope Jon kills Ramsay, although a part of me hoped that Yara would be the one to do it since her first attempt to rescue her brother went awry (plus, let’s not forget that nice gift he sent her and Balon at the end of season 3).

    Because I’m a big Sansa fan, I hope we find out where her plot’s heading soon. I also hope that wherever she ends up is out of Littlefinger’s reach.

  46. I don’t want Ramsay to die by the hands of a major character. He doesn’t deserve that. Umber Soldier/Wildling/Vale Soldier #1 has to do it. :-/

  47. It makes sense for Jon to take Winterfell since Melisandre saw herself walking on the battlements (in the show). So I do not think she will burn to bring him back alive either.

    But the Vale forces are a bit mystifying. Sansa escaping to North and the Vale forces taking Riverlands instead with them might be a possibility but probably too convoluted. Maybe Sansa fights fight the Vale and the Northern lords but it still losing . And the Jon and the windings would come to rescue at the last moment like the riders of Rohan. But The Vale and the Northern sources seems so strong together to take down the Boltons alone even if all the Stannis’s former forces had joined them. Well maybe something happens to LF so he will change his plans.

  48. I thought this might end up happening. I’m glad they’re doing this and not my much earlier prediction of Littlefinger and the knights of the Vale sweeping in to finish what Stannis started early in the season.

    Get ready for BASTARDBOWL, baby!

    Also, this doesn’t mean the Oldtown raid still won’t happen in S6. It could happen in Ep 8 or even the finale. It needs to be a big deal because raiding the second largest port city in Westeros is not exactly a small feat. It could take place in the latter half of an episode like Hardhome did.

    Also, JON SNOW LIVES… AGAIN. Just felt like saying that.

  49. Chris,

    She has to at least meet Arya before she dies via what she said to her in ep. 306. So with Arya only destined to make it to the Riverlands that confirms Mel survives s6.

  50. Tywin of the Hill:
    Wouldn’t a Northern battle feel repetitive after Stannis in Winterfell last season?

    Erm….. You do realise what Northern battle is also coming after that? And besides- the last one was only seen from a distance.

  51. Hi-Fi:
    If the Wall was to fall, would Winterfell be the next line of defense? Would Jon and the Watchers regroup there?

    If the Wall falls there’s no more Night’s Watch at all. They would perish in it. I doubt they’d fight in a battle away from home.

  52. The battle in the North doesn’t necessarily have to take up an entire episode. As for Oldtown, the show has increasingly relied upon giving important sequences big chunks of time outside of the traditional episode nines, so that could easily be a bombastic, twenty-five minute sequence or so.

  53. JON SNOW LIVES!!!

    I’m sufficiently hyped. I’ll give credit to Kit and D&D, they tried, and even made me start to doubt that Jon’s story was finished, but they had to know they couldn’t keep this hidden from the die hards. So they settled for making us suffer for a couple of months.

  54. Chinoiserie:
    Sansa escaping to North and the Vale forces taking Riverlands instead with them might be a possibility but probably too convoluted.

    We know from filming that both Sophie and Aiden were filming at the Winterfell set earlier this year.

    Pigeon:
    Also….I really don’t think people realize what a force the Boltons are. I’m predicting that either Roose or Ramsay, if not both, survive S6. Didn’t Alfie Allen mention something about the Boltons being around for a long time to come? I want them to ‘get theirs’, but I don’t think it’ll happen yet.

    Alfie hadn’t read scripts or anything when he said that. I don’t think there’s much reason to think the Boltons survive much longer. The show has two seasons left, and is going to be pivoting toward Dany’s arrival, the White Walker invasion, etc. The Boltons are by this point isolated and under attack on all fronts. Ramsay, in particular, seems a sure bet to die at this point (the confrontation with Jon), and ever since Season 3 Roose has not really been more than a supporting villain.

  55. M,

    That’s the big mystery to me. Either they have been defeated by then or they have been unmentioned but they are on the side of the North. My bet is they’ll be a sort of Rohirrim force —they’ll appear to help the North when everything seems lost.

  56. Aguero,

    Oldtown will only have a few “major” characters, Sam and Gilly. They won’t spend a whole episode depicting a battle or a siege or a sack of the city. I expect it will happen, but it will be a lesser scale thing.

  57. And now his watch is ended … and now his life begins. Jon Snow/Jon Whomever = KIT is back!
    Hell Yes! Made my day

  58. I have always suspected that Jon, the Wildlings and some Northern Lords would attack the Boltons. It is nice to have some confirmation towards that scenario. This will be a play on the Great Northern Conspiracy. I hope this also means that we will finally have a Stark reunion, between Sansa, Jon and Rickon.

    I think the Bolton’s are done for, there are new villains and other problems to contend with in the upcoming seasons. But someone like Roose could still escape.

    M: The spoilers about “Bolton forces” participating in this battle raise an interesting question, though. The assumption for some fans had been that Littlefinger would show up to Winterfell with the Vale forces and clean out the Boltons. However, we know that by 6×09, the Bolton forces are fighting in this big battle, and it also seems like there’s a good chance that Ramsay is still alive by that point. So I guess my question is…what happened to the Vale forces? Do they never make it to Winterfell? Do they bypass Winterfell entirely and link up with the Northerners? Do they make it to Winterfell only to get the Team Baratheon treatment? We know that Yohn Royce is filming in December, so presumably the Vale forces are around the North, but I’m having trouble figuring out what happens to that plot.

    Littlefinger might go to the Riverlands. The Vale soldiers might attack the Fryes. Littlefinger is suppose to be the Lord of Harrenhal, but Sansa could also have a claim on the Riverlands through Catelyn. Or the army of the Vale might arrive to late for the battle of Winterfell, this could place Littlefinger in a precarious position. The Vale army will very likely struggle in the North just like Stannis’s army last season.

  59. Apollo,

    Once everybody finds out Rickon is alive (which, seeing as the Umbers are here, presumably they know that), Sansa’s strategic significance declined considerably. Beyond which, I don’t see why the Vale forces (who don’t appear to be here anyway, at least at first glance) would side against an anti-Bolton force led by Sansa’s half-brother).

    I’ll be interested to see how exactly this conflict comes about, since in the books Jon died in the process of making war on the Boltons, but in the show he genuinely stayed out of that whole story.

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  61. Sean C.,

    They probably wanted to set up Jon and Ramsay’s emnity only when it became relevant —that is, in Season 6, whenever Jon comes back to life and (I guess) Sansa tells her everything that has happened in Winterfell.

  62. Tywin of the Hill,

    I think that’s exactly why the battle between Stannis and the Boltons was so swift.

    There were people complaining that they thought it was poorly done and that there wasn’t enough action, but I was certain that that meant that there would be a much bigger Battle for Winterfell in a later series.

    Had they made more of Stannis’s attempt on Winterfell then any future siege/battle for Winterfell (which was almost inevitable) would have been repetitive.

    Instead, Stannis’s attack was just like the appetiser. The real battle, it would seem, is coming this season.

  63. hodor,

    It’s not like the Night’s Watch currently has enough members to make up a relevant part of an army involving thousands of windlings and Northeners. There could be one or two dozen crows involved and it may even go unnoticed in the report. Or maybe the Night’s Watch has been completely destroyed by Jon and the wildlings, which is what I assume you were getting at. In a way, I hope so.

  64. hodor,

    Who is the NW at this point, though? Thorne, Olly and Edd. That’s basically it.

    On a side note, I assume/hope Davos and Melisandre will also be involved.

  65. Maybe Petyr will be heading south for his coronation as King of the Ashes after the Mad Queen has her fun in King’s Landing.

  66. Luka Nieto,

    Yeah that’s exactly it, Jon getting killed by NW, coming back to life, wildlings at the Wall. Now we get spoilers about Jon and wildlings taking part in a battle in episode 9 of next season. You could be right about NW possibly having gone unnoticed by the report but somehow I don’t see it boding well for NW.

  67. The idea of SNOWBOWL makes my heart flutter… it’s the scenario I’ve been dreaming of! I envision it as Jon first taking Winterfell, then entrenching there to fight the WWs, after the wall falls or is overrun.

  68. Roose is Azor Ahai,
    That is one of the greatest pieces of art evah! I only hope the real thing can capture some of it’s awesomeness 😀

    I have to ask tho’, is Jon supposed to be standing on something? My first thought was a carpet 😉

  69. I’m relieved to hear that Jon Snow might finally get away from the Wall for a while and have a bit of interaction with the rest of Westeros, and hopefully get a bit of revenge on those that destroyed his family.

    I don’t know about anybody else, but if this purported battle scene does see Winterfell recaptured then I think it’s safe to assume that one or both of the Boltons is going to come a cropper. I have a suspicion, though, that to maintain a few villains in the show for further seasons, they may not kill both Boltons off. So which do you think they would kill off in Season 6? Roose or Ramsay?

    Personally, I’m a bit tired of Ramsay’s pantomime villain, so would prefer Roose (Michael McElhatton is great) to survive. But I don’t know what they’d do with Roose if he survived. I could see Ramsay going AWOL with a band of (perhaps, 20?) outlaws and occasionally reappearing to torment some of the characters.

    Or will Ramsay have already been killed (perhaps while hunting for Theon and Sansa) before a Battle for Winterfell even occurs?

    I can’t decide whose heart I’d prefer to see Jon Snow put Longclaw through, Roose’s or Ramsay’s? Probably Roose. Ramsay can take an Oathkeeper to the skull or Ghost/Shaggydog’s jaws to his knackers, in a bit of poetic justice for what he did to Theon, instead.

    What does everybody else think?

  70. “Snowbowl.” I can barely believe this will be a thing. And Jon will probably have Tormund one one side, and Smalljon Umber at the other. Those are some damn mighty sidekicks. Now, hopefully Sansa gets Rickon from the Umbers (or sends Davos to do so, not unlike Davos does in the books for the Manderlies), and we also have Shaggydog and Ghost in battle —if they’re really spending the money on the battle, hopefully they can spend some of it to finally put the direwolves to some use.

    Oh wow. I’m writing my own fan fiction of these events now. It means I’m excited!

  71. Mieux,

    Mieux,

    Il me semble qu’il était vu en train de tourner une scène (laquelle de la bataille, qui suggère qu’il est toujours vivant!) j’espère que cela vous aide

  72. Anybody else wondering why Hannah Murray’s got red hair in that photo? She and John are pictured in Girona, so she’s probably filming. So why the red hair, I wonder?

  73. Luka Nieto: Or maybe the Night’s Watch has been completely destroyed by Jon and the wildlings, which is what I assume you were getting at.

    I assume the stunningly oblivious nationalist mutineers will get their just desserts from a variety of angles: Ghost, Mel, Tormund, Wun Wun, Jon’s supporters within the NW (Edd, etc), Davos, etc. Still disappointed that Alliser led the way of the mutineers….not even a discussion about the HH events/ramifications? Ugh. Let ’em burn.

  74. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    I’m a bit tired of Ramsay’s sadistic tendencies too. Hoped he would die early in season six, but now I want him to survive long enough for Jon to chop off his head in the name of Sansa. Also, Roose is just such a juicy character played by such a fantastic actor —if Martin and/or D&D find something for him to do after losing in Winterfell, that’d be great.

  75. Snowbowl…. oh yes yes. Let’s start the popcorn and wine NOW!

    Maybe Mel goes into Winterfell and makes the flags burn from the inside? Drives the Boltons out kamakazi-style into the open for Snowwalker to destroy them… she will be his literal Lightbringer…

  76. Sean C.:
    Apollo,

    Once everybody finds out Rickon is alive (which, seeing as the Umbers are here, presumably they know that), Sansa’s strategic significance declined considerably.Beyond which, I don’t see why the Vale forces (who don’t appear to be here anyway, at least at first glance) would side against an anti-Bolton force led by Sansa’s half-brother).

    It’s true that we certainly don’t know that the Vale soldiers are there (yet) but last season the pieces were in place for LF returning North with the Vale army to “capture” Sansa/overthrow the Boltons. LF and the Boltons aren’t aware of Rickons location so Sansa is still very much of strategic value as far as they are concerned/aware. To add to that, the Vale Lords respected the Starks and its not hard to imagine Yohn Royce coming to Sansas aid as the only remaining heir to Ned Stark (if thats what he’s led to believe at least) especially if they hear of her predicament.

    Alternatively Team Jon /Umber may simply be trying to save Sansa as the North does indeed “remember” (they need to do more with that line).

    In truth it’s all really supposition at this time as none of us know very much.

  77. Hoyti Von Totiy:
    So the Boltons will be around until ep 9 …. What will be happening until then only God knows …

    I think Ramsay will kill Walda at some point before that. I would have hoped that a theory regarding Roose from the books might prove accurate but there hasn’t been any set-up in the show (and the set-ups are often more or less obvious like Olly and Shireen last season) although we’ll see.

  78. Hoyti Von Totiy,

    Huh. That is something I hadn’t considered.

    What will be the Bolton’s story this season? They’re kind of secondary characters in the story, aren’t they. The only reason they had so much screen-time recently was because of Theon and Sansa. So I guess we’ll see them in the beginning, trying to track down Sansa, and then won’t see them that much until the finale? Or maybe the Vale doesn’t get involved in the reported climactic battle, but earlier… However, that would mean yet another army dying at the hands of the Boltons —that may be too much. So yeah, I guess we won’t see them that much. More like in season four.

  79. Pigeon,

    Disagree. I think both of them have to bite it this season in order to make way for Daenerys’ return and the White Walkers attack. I just can’t see how there would be room for them after this season, and they are beginning to tire me. In fact, I don’t really expect them to be in this season much at all either. Yes, the battle is in episode 9, but I can see them only being in 3 other episodes. The audience is familiar with them and without other major characters around them I expect them to have a much smaller presence in terms of screen-time; we don’t really need to see them much because we already know them.

  80. Luka Nieto,

    Perhaps they could send Roose to the Wall. I think he and Alliser Thorne would make a great double act.

    And he and Olly could trade tips on how best to betray your king/commander, while they wait for the White Walkers to bring the Wall down and slaughter them. 🙂

  81. Luka Nieto,

    It may be that while this battle is going on elsewhere the Valemen show up and take Winterfell or something. I can’t see them being defeated, simply because Littlefinger is one of the show’s main villains and I have a hard time imagining that the end of his scheming is brought about by the Boltons. At the same time, I have a hard time fitting them into this story. The only thing we really know is that Gillen was filming at the Winterfell set, and that apparently Sophie was also filming there around the same time, though not necessarily together.

  82. Greenjones,

    Is it? Wow! I had no idea. You can see Cersei and Daenerys wigs a mile off, but Gilly’s I never would have guessed.

    Although, I guess it makes sense if her hair is meant to be bedraggled and greasy all the time. It’d be a bit cruel on Hannah Murray to make such a mess of her actual hair every day for filming.

    Fair enough. Mystery solved.

  83. Mihnea,

    If that happens, the screams of joy heard from my house will be the beginning of stories which will be told for hundreds of years.

  84. Sean C.,

    Perhaps Gillen and Turner were filming scenes at Winterfell for after Winterfell has been recaptured, with the help of the Knights of the Vale.

  85. Maybe in the books Stannis will die in a battle of Winterfell and shortly after this Jon will come to kick Ramsey’s ass;)

  86. I’m crying, I’m dying, and then I’m being resurrected only to cry and die again.
    JON!!!!
    OMG I CAN’T WAIT FOR THIS!

    …..must remember to breathe…..

  87. Awesome find Sue. Can I ask you if this is confirmed to be in episode 9? I read the phrasing as an assumption on your part but I may be wrong.
    In any case, THE comeback has to happen pretty early in the season to allow that big battle to happen in the next season. So… episode 1, most likely.

  88. A lot to digest with the episode 9 news, I’m wondering the following
    – Besides the obvious betrayal, what moves Jon to head south considering he knows the ultimate threat beyond the wall?
    – What role does Sansa play in the anti-bolton forces? With this news, I am thinking she’s headed to the Riverlands with Brienne.
    – Is Davos the one to find Rickon and bring the GNC into motion with the Umbers as opposed to Sansa – Jon and Rickon united?
    – Vale forces role
    – I always was cognizant of the Northern families view towards the Wildlings, wonder if this dynamic will come into play if they have to work together to oust the Boltons.
    – Would it really be the Boltons vs. Jon, Umbers, Wildlings – The Karstarks have to be supporting the Boltons or else the odds would be massively against Roose & Ramsay to even want to consider leaving Winterfell. Hoping some Frey forces make it down and Littlefinger/Vale feign allegiance.

    A lot to digest, too much while waiting lol

  89. Weren’t the northern forces mostly decimated already? Where do they get the fighting men when banners were called long ago? Were there notable houses that didn’t go to Robb, or am I forgetting some disbanding before the Red Wedding?

  90. Mooease:
    – What role does Sansa play in the anti-bolton forces? With this news, I am thinking she’s headed to the Riverlands with Brienne.

    The only film we have real indicators of regarding Sophie has her at Winterfell. There’s zero reason for that character to go to the Riverlands, either on a character or narrative level, what with the Valemen being brought north along with Littlefinger.

    Off-Topic Otto,

    Well, if you believe the show is going to remember this, in Season 3 the Karstarks took “half” of the Northern army and marched home — even though the next season established that Moat Cailin was blocked and they shouldn’t have thought they could do that, unless they “went around” it like Brienne did. But regardless, per Roose last year the other Northern houses collectively outnumber the Boltons and could destroy them.

  91. Off-Topic Otto,

    Seems like the Umbers weren’t even at the Red Wedding in the show. Maybe they made it back up North? They’ve probably had enough time to train new troops too.

  92. Hah! Exactly what i thought the moment my eyes glanced over the sentence that said Kit Harington was spotted on the same set as the Boltons

  93. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    JON SNOW LIVES!!!

    I’m sufficiently hyped. I’ll give credit to Kit and D&D, they tried, and even made me start to doubt that Jon’s story was finished, but they had to know they couldn’t keep this hidden from the die hards. So they settled for making us suffer for a couple of months.

    Was never in doubt. If JS had died, the entire story about GRRM quizzing them on who was JS’s mother would have been a red herring, who cares, from the start. Doubt they would had THAT story be made up to cover for something that happens 6 years down the road.

  94. Jon wargs Ghost, Bran wargs Jon’s resurrected shell, then goes on a vengeful rampage with Ghost Jon at his side.
    It only makes sense! Oh, and Ghost Jon eats the skin off (flays) Ramsay.

  95. Wow!! This is HUGE news. The way I see it is: Northern Lords get together and go up against the Boltons. The battle is evenly matched and then Jon arrives with Tormund and a Wilding Army to force a Bolton defeat. (In a way, I also see the show doing a parallel scenario in Essos, with Meereen locked in a civil war, and then Daenerys arriving with the Dothrakis to force defeat on the Harpies). I am not sure why the Vale armies would be involved here. Jon abandoning the NW makes total sense. Who cares about the NW now? I hope Davos joins Jon.

    I do think both Roose and Ramsey will go to the great beyond at the end of the season. No need to bother with them in S7 – onwards with Euron, etc.

    I really don’t know where Sansa and Brienne/Pod will fit in, but a natural place for Brienne should be in the battle.

  96. Weronika:
    Maybe in the books Stannis will die in a battle of Winterfell and shortly after this Jon will come to kick Ramsey’s ass;)

    I think it’s extremely likely that Stannis will die and also wipe the Baratheon line out, at a very, very early stage in the battle of Winterfell.

  97. Jaime’s girl:
    I’m going to do this comment STEFON style, from Saturday Night Live…
    If you’re looking to have the best info on Game of Thrones, I know just the place.
    The internet’s hottest site is “Watchers on the Wall”
    This site has everything:
    – videos full of spoilers
    – new cast stalking
    – GILLY
    – exclusive confirmations about mega spoilery northern battles..

    “BOOOOOOOOOF!!!!!”…..

    (with 9 ‘O’s….)

  98. Chris,

    Yes, Carice has been filming. Thank god! I think Stannis’ downfall will send Mel in an interesting direction, can’t wait to see what they have in store for her. It would be a terrible waste to do away with that character. We’ve barely scratched the surface with her.

  99. Sean C.,

    Sean,

    Those are good points, I am having a tough time reconciling anywhere but north in relation to the Vale dynamic. I do think there could be a shift if Brienne indicates to her that they have to head south as the Bolton’s are firmly in control of the north and she is definitively sought after. It’s going to be interesting to see how this all comes about, I just can’t picture a Sansa-Rickon-Jon union, as awesome as it would be.

  100. It would fascinate me to see Ramsay sent to King’s Landing in chains, or forced to join the Night’s Watch. I think the character is written as a cartoon villain and I want to see him in a situation where his power is stripped from him and he is at the mercy of other sadists.

  101. I’m already smiling at the future reviews of the twitter feeds for season 6. OMG can you imagine what the comments are going to be? People are going to go nuts.

  102. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I feel the same! The “Jon Snow rides in at the head of a wildling army to take Winterfell” has been my pet theory as well but goddamn I’m excited to see that it’s been confirmed. UNREAL.

    I think he’ll kill Roose, but while we’re in wish fulfilment territory I’d love for Jon to have a standoff with Ramsey but doesn’t finish him; Jon’s clearly the superior swordsman and will beat him down, but perhaps he gets distracted. Ramsey then crawls away (hopefully with a painful injury!)…only to be killed by Nymeria and Ghost. If Sansa was there to give the order that would be even better, but that’s definitely tinfoil hat territory. A girl can dream though.

  103. Mooease,

    Not that I think much of the “Sansa in the North” story in season 5 (I’m sure my past comment history has made that abundantly clear), but if the writers had Sansa just pick up stakes and go back south, that would completely obviate any of the story potential people have been suggesting it will bring about. It would mean she has no role whatsoever in the downfall of the Boltons, her learning about her brothers being alive comes to nothing, and she’s not even in the same area as Littlefinger and the Valemen either. What would be the point?

  104. Mooease,

    The Pink Letter might still make it into the show in some form. I’m one of the five people who think Ramsay wrote the letter, and if it was sufficient motivation for Jon in the books.

  105. You guys have to remember that the Karstarks will probably be on the Bolton’s side. I imagine they would be a bit pissed off with the Starks after Robb killed their lord. They escaped the Red Wedding so they’ll have a fairly larger army than the other northern houses. So basically the Boltons will have more men than most people think.

  106. Sean C.,

    Not in disagreement with your reasoning, but I do think circumstances like this have happened before in the books and on the show. We don’t see Arya take out all the people she has on her list, in some cases they are taken out by someone else. Sansa having an active role in the Bolton downfall isn’t exactly clinched in my opinion.

    I went in believing last season that her capabilities as a player in the game would be on the rise and much of that went into shambles via post-wedding scene. I think it would be interesting juxtaposition to see her saved and rescued by Brienne with the consideration of Sansa’s childhood and her dreams about knights, chivalry, etc.

    If she just happens to miss the Vale forces as she’s on the run towards safety, it wouldn’t be the first time something like this has occurred on the show. The one point you do make about knowledge regarding her brothers is deeply interesting – there has to be some payoff towards that and for this reason I do believe she stays in the north. The Riverlands are still fresh in my mind for multiple reasons, plus who doesn’t enjoy trying to predict a little.

  107. Mooease,

    It might already be sitting on his desk for all we know. He was going through some letters before he was interrupted by Olly and assassinated.. .although I kinda doubt that.

    It would be reasonable for Ramsay to assume that Sansa fled to Castle Black, given he told her that Jon was now the Lord Commander a few episodes prior to the finale. He might send a letter to Castle Black shortly after discovering Sansa is gone and failing to locate her, saying that Stannis has been defeated and Jon must send Sansa back to him or he’ll be next, or something similar. That would be the earliest the Pink Letter would come into play.

  108. Galli:
    Theon does not deserve to kill Ramsay. Think of how many people he betrayed to Ramsay as Reek last season. Ramsay should be killed by somebody stronger than he is, somebody who can make him know fear. I always wanted it to be Melisandre, who could finish him off with black magic, but at this point, anybody will do. Anybody but Theon.

    The big Umber lord that is “fierce in battle”would be a good candidate for slicing a long sword right down the middle of Ramseys head 😀

  109. Chekhov’sOlly,

    Roose last season seemed pretty clear that the Boltons don’t have any Northern allies at present.

    It’s possible that trying to win over the Karstarks might be something Sansa does, if the new Lord Karstark is cast as an ambiguous figure.

  110. TheTouchOfFrost:
    I still want Theon to kill Ramsay… Rickon/Shaggy to kill Roose!

    That is a cool idea. But… do you think there’s any chance that Davos might kill Roose?

    Davos might swear fealty to a resurrected Jon Stark or

    Targ

    or whatever Jon ends up calling himself. Every King needs a Hand.

  111. Sean C.,

    I seem to recall something in the Karstark character’s casting description that made me think he would be on the Bolton’s side.

  112. Mooease,

    It’s not merely a matter of her missing the Vale forces, it’s that in the books she is with Littlefinger, and from all indications her interactions with Littlefinger are central to her narrative. And, lo and behold, after sending Sansa off to play Jeyne Poole for season 5, the show is bringing Littlefinger to the North in Season 6. It just doesn’t make much sense for the narrative to send Sansa elsewhere when it’s set things up to engage in another of its contortions to put the character back in some version of the book character’s storyline.

  113. Kay:
    Wow!!This is HUGE news. The way I see it is: Northern Lords get together and go up against the Boltons. The battle is evenly matched and then Jon arrives with Tormund and a Wilding Army to force a Bolton defeat. (In a way, I also see the show doing a parallel scenario in Essos, with Meereen locked in a civil war, and then Daenerys arriving with the Dothrakis to force defeat on the Harpies). I am not sure why the Vale armies would be involved here. Jon abandoning the NW makes total sense. Who cares about the NW now? I hope Davos joins Jon.

    I do think both Roose and Ramsey will go to the great beyond at the end of the season. No need to bother with them in S7 – onwards with Euron, etc.

    I really don’t know where Sansa and Brienne/Pod will fit in, but a natural place for Brienne should be in the battle.

    I like this scenario

  114. Kay: I think it’s extremely likely that Stannis will die and also wipe the Baratheon line out, at a very, very early stage in the battle of Winterfell.

    If Gendry were to return, would he still be considered a Baratheon even though he’s a bastard? Could he not be legitimatized by someone?

  115. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Anybody else wondering why Hannah Murray’s got red hair in that photo?

    I believe blondish red is her natural color.

    Knew it would eventually happen, a little bird has spotted Kit filming scenes. The big mystery is who all is involved in that battle.

    Now our little birds need to spot Richard E Grant, we know he’s not in the theatre troupe.

  116. Dornish Pastie: That is a cool idea. But… do you think there’s any chance that Davos might kill Roose?

    Davos might swear fealty to a resurrected Jon Stark or

    or whatever Jon ends up calling himself. Every King needs a Hand.

    Davos is sill at The Wall right? If he sees Jon resurrected/reborn, I’m sure he will realize then and there that Jon is what Stannis was thought to be and swear fealty.

  117. Chekhov’sOlly,

    The description is:

    The show’s looking for an actor in his late thirties or forties to play another lord, one that’s ruthless and calculating. The frightening lord rules a vassal household with a castle stronghold. He’ll be in 3 episodes this year, with 20 days of filming this summer and fall.

    “Ruthless and calculating” suggests to me that he’s somebody looking out for his own interests. It would be up to Sansa (or whoever) to convince him his interests were with them.

  118. Wayne Gleeson:
    Whatever Ramsays comeuppance might be, i think it will be a sight for sore eyes regardless

    I was really hoping Arya could get her hands on him and his father, lol. What she did to Trant would absolutely pale in comparison if she knew everything Ramsay and Roose had done to her family and people!

  119. Sue

    Thanks

    SciFiFantasyGirl

    it probably depends if anyone would want to legitimise Gendry. He needs a powerful backer

  120. Sean C.:
    Apollo,
    I’ll be interested to see how exactly this conflict comes about, since in the books Jon died in the process of making war on the Boltons, but in the show he genuinely stayed out of that whole story.

    They might be using part of the Alys Karstark subplot (‘a grey girl, fleeing from a marriage’) and transferring it to Sansa. That’s been my suspicion since Ramsay’s ‘Billy Plot Exposition!’ moment where he says Jon has been made Lord Commander at the Wall.

  121. SciFiFantasyGirl: Davos is sill at The Wall right?If he sees Jon resurrected/reborn, I’m sure he will realize then and there that Jon is what Stannis was thought to be and swear fealty.

    Yes, he is still at the Wall!

    I don’t know if I’d exactly want to see Roose fall to Davos’ sword, but it would be an interesting juxtaposition of one of the show’s (and books’) genuinely decent people with one of its most massive shits.

  122. SciFiFantasyGirl,

    He’s unlikely to be legitimized by Tommen, or anybody else who might hold the Iron Throne anytime soon. And the only people on the planet that could confirm his real identity are Davos and Arya (nobody would believe Melisandre).

    If Gendry is ever to reappear, be legitimized and take control of House Baratheon, I’m not sure who would make him legitimate. Daenerys, perhaps? Although she’s not exactly a fan of House Baratheon.

    With Shireen and Stannis both dead, Ser Davos may well get round to telling somebody important of Gendry’s existence so that House Baratheon doesn’t die out.

    He may well reappear in Season 7 or onwards, when there is somebody around who might be willing to legitimize him.

  123. I still think Sansa might go to the Iron Islands with Theon. It would arguably be “safer” (I use that term very loosely here) for her there than fleeing to a Northern Lord who may well surrender her back to the Boltons, and the way to Castle Black would be dangerous as she’d have to travel through or very close to the battlefield where Bolton troops would be present.

    Heading west where there are likely still some Ironborn holdouts would be best, and the Ironborn would value Sansa too much as a “ward” to turn her over to the Boltons. It’s risky, but it might be safer than being taken back to Winterfell where Ramsay would likely torture Theon and Sansa horrifically (he’d probably torture Theon to death at that point, and make Sansa watch).

    If she does, I honestly don’t expect too much harm would befall her. Asha would likely look out for her similar to how she did for Sybelle Glover in the books. Where Sansa’s story would go from there though… that would be tricky to predict. I’d hope at some point she would return to the North.

    I just hope she doesn’t end up as someone’s salt wife.

  124. Flora Linden:
    The theater troupe KL play sounds like the Westerosi equivalent of a Saturday Night Live sketch – can’t wait to see that.

    Bastard Snowbowl will be awesome, but Jon killing Ramsey and taking over Winterfell shouldn’t be taken as a obvious outcome. It seemed so logical Stannis would triumph at the beginning of S5, and look what happened. Jon’s war against the Boltons could end up in another clusterfiesta. We’ll see what happens.

    I do wonder where Sansa, Brienne, Pod, Davos, Osha and Rickon are in this scenario. It would be ironic to have Jon retake Winterfell – except the people who would have benefited the most from the victory aren’t even there!

    Thank you Sue for all the S6 news.

    They’re not bringing Jon back just to have him lose a war. Especially not to Ramsay.

  125. SciFiFantasyGirl: I was really hoping Arya could get her hands on him and his father, lol.What she did to Trant would absolutely pale in comparison if she knew everything Ramsay and Roose had done to her family and people!

    Personally I’d prefer one of the “Northern Lords” to lay a smack down on his head with a huge warhammer type weapon, just an extremely over the top B movie style ultra violent death that a brutish character would be capable of carrying out. I think the odds need to be evened in terms of well meaning characters getting horrendous deaths (ie Oberyn) would be great to see a sadistic character
    like Ramsay get some serious payback for his actions 😀

  126. Sean C.:
    Mooease,

    Not that I think much of the “Sansa in the North” story in season 5 (I’m sure my past comment history has made that abundantly clear), but if the writers had Sansa just pick up stakes and go back south, that would completely obviate any of the story potential people have been suggesting it will bring about.It would mean she has no role whatsoever in the downfall of the Boltons, her learning about her brothers being alive comes to nothing, and she’s not even in the same area as Littlefinger and the Valemen either.What would be the point?

    Hence why she may very well be in the North in S6 in the midst of a 3 pronged battle consisting off factions who wish to control/use/liberate Sansa.

  127. I am surprised about the folks questioning what part the Vale army will play in this battle. LF is a selfserving, deceiving prick. He does not care how he achieves his goal (Sansa married off to Ramsey for example ). I don’t see him to make good on his promise, if Stannis fails, he/the Vale will take care of the Boltons.

    I say forget about the Vale and enjoy
    Snowbowl.

    Sue, you are spoiling us.
    So much info…too much input…head going…to..explode….?

  128. Tywin of the Hill:
    Apollo,

    Now that you’ve mentioned it, wouldn’t a battle at the Wall feel repetitive after 4×09 Watchers at the Wall?

    I doubt it… The inevitable battle of ice and fire is sure to take place at/near the Wall or (at the very least) in the depths of winter. No fans watching that are gonna be thinking “Whoa there- there’s been a battle in the snow before-this is lame”

  129. Maybe the battle will take place on two fronts:
    The Northern Lords (maybe with help from Sansa, Brienne, Pod, etc.) Lure Ramsay and his men out to fight (and Jon & the Wildlings (and Davos & Melisandre?) arrive at the end to save them when they seem to be losing).
    Meanwhile, the Vale Lords attack Winterfell itself, where Roose is garrisoned (now with decreased numbers thanks to the Northern Lords luring Ramsay out).

  130. SciFiFantasyGirl,
    “If Gendry were to return, would he still be considered a Baratheon even though he’s a bastard? Could he not be legitimatized by someone?”

    This has been my thought too as they have to tie up that loose end somehow. I’ll be disappointed if they just leave him ‘out there rowing’. I suspect Arya might end up with a legitimized Gendry who then would be considered ‘worthy’ of a highborn Stark.

  131. There will be Stark vengence! I read somewhere the 6th book was originally titled A Time For Wolves so I fully expect the Freys and Boltons to finally reap what they sow. Lannisters too but they are doing a fine job at getting killed off without the Starks even being there

  132. Just some thoughts. I’m trying to process everything and thinking about all of the possibilities you all are mentioning.

    “The wolves will come again,” said Jojen solemnly.

    – With the exception of Robb, all of the Stark children will be back in the north by the end of this season am I right? I’m loving this fact so much. (But I miss my Robb desperately)

    – If R+L=J comes to light with his resurrection, Jon will be confirmed as both a Targaryen and a Stark. What a heritage! Along with the fact that he has been proven to be able to rally people, is a strong leader, a hell of a fighter, and has the knowledge of what kills WW, people would be insane not to follow to follow him. Not to mention he was brought back from the dead. And, that brings me to….

    – What will he be called? Is he being brought back as Azor Hai and/or The Prince That Was Promised? But the comet aspect of that prophesy would be missing both at his birth and his rebirth, unless there will be one more comet? Or is he not one of them, than what will he be?

    – If Sansa ends up with Brienne and Pod, will people ship ‘Ponsa or Sodrick’? (joke insertion)

    – We know that Bran has been training and where, but nothing about Rickon. What has he grown into, show-wise? What role will he have this season?

    – Arya and Melisandre. Melisandre said they’d see each other again. Melisandre is on Arya’s list. Or will that change once she finds out that she resurrected Jon…

    My brain hurts. I’ll probably have more scattered thoughts later….

  133. Tarley always has that same look on his face like that viral photo of that chubby dude with the fedora

  134. iridium:
    Dornish Pastie,

    Ah that’s a good point. I’m ashamed to say I’d temporarily forgotten about Alys and that whole storyline. So yeah, the pink letter might happen after all?

    Might well do! Oooh. If you want a laugh, find the Preston Jacobs Youtube video about the Pink Letter. I normally don’t like this guy’s vids as they are real tinfoil hat territory (example, he seems to think Ned Stark tore down the Tower of Joy with his BARE HANDS plus wildfire. RAAAH, HULK SMASH!). The Pink Letter video is really good, though, and it’s the ‘evil’ voice he reads the letter out in that just had me creasing up.

  135. SciFiFantasyGirl: If Gendry were to return, would he still be considered a Baratheon even though he’s a bastard? Could he not be legitimatized by someone?

    Insofar as we know, only the recognized King of Westeros could do so, and as Gendry would be a threat to any of the remaining contenders for the Throne (at this point, Daeny & Tommen), neither would do so.

    Now, a King in the North or a King of the Iron Isles might be able to do so, too: but their writ would not extend to Westeros. At best, the Westerosi would just say: “Congratulations! You are a Baratheon there! Now, go away you bastard….”

    In reality, Robert’s heir after Tommen would be some cousin (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.) or another about whom we have heard nothing. Given that the noble families all intermarry, most of the noble-born characters probably would be heirs of varying distance to Robert.

  136. SJH:
    SciFiFantasyGirl,
    “If Gendry were to return, would he still be considered a Baratheon even though he’s a bastard? Could he not be legitimatized by someone?”

    This has been my thought too as they have to tie up that loose end somehow. I’ll be disappointed if they just leave him ‘out there rowing’. I suspect Arya might end up with a legitimized Gendry who then would be considered ‘worthy’ of a highborn Stark.

    My tinfoil theory is that Gendry was picked up by Euron on the way to the Iron Islands and that is how he is brought back into the fold. Very foil-ish I know. But hey, it’s just a thought, lol.

  137. Dornish Pastie: Might well do! Oooh. If you want a laugh, find the Preston Jacobs Youtube video about the Pink Letter. I normally don’t like this guy’s vids as they are real tinfoil hat territory (example, he seems to think Ned Stark tore down the Tower of Joy with his BARE HANDS plus wildfire. RAAAH, HULK SMASH!). The Pink Letter video is really good, though, and it’s the ‘evil’ voice he reads the letter out in that just had me creasing up.

    Seen it too! Love his vids. If anything, they just get you thinking, lol. I also watch Alt Shift X’s stuff and Emergency Awesome’s.

  138. Making the 8:
    There will be Stark vengence! I read somewhere the 6th book was originally titled A Time For Wolves so I fully expect the Freys and Boltons to finally reap what they sow. Lannisters too but they are doing a fine job at getting killed off without the Starks even being there

    And Jojen dreamt it. I’m a Stark girl myself, so I’m pretty giddy right now! I know I’m going to be a blathering mess when watching the reunions and if they fight together etc.

  139. Sean C.:
    Chekhov’sOlly,
    Roose last season seemed pretty clear that the Boltons don’t have any Northern allies at present.

    No. He said: We don’t have enough men to hold the North, if the other Houses rise up against us. Do you understand that?

    Roose didn’t say they don’t have any allies in the North.

  140. SciFiFantasyGirl: Jon will be confirmed as both a Targaryen and a Stark. What a heritage!

    Sort of. In this world, it might be confirmed that he is Rhaegar’s and Lyanna’s son. However, he is still a bastard: and the Westerosi seem to firmly believe that “trueborn” children truly are the progeny of their parents, whereas bastards are somehow tainted. This might seem silly: but, then, it was firmly believed by Europeans until recently!

    SciFiFantasyGirl: What will he be called? Is he being brought back as Azor Hai and/or The Prince That Was Promised?

    He will be Jon. He will (like Daeny, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, etc.) be different than he was due to his experiences. However, Winter Jon will be an evolutionary step from Dragons Jon, not some metamorphosis from Dragons Jon.

    And, in the end, Azor Ahai will prove to be just a person, or just three people, who did the right things in the right places at the right time. Legend and time will apotheosize them: but Jon’s not going to be a god in his lifetime!

    SciFiFantasyGirl: With the exception of Robb, all of the Stark children will be back in the north by the end of this season am I right? I’m loving this fact so much. (But I miss my Robb desperately)

    Arya might not be: it’s possible that her Riverlands stuff will be through Nymerria. Given that she’s going to be blind at the outset of the year, and given that she is in Essos post-blindness, and given that she gets about an hour of screen time each season, it seems like a bit much to have her actually physically returned to Westeros.

  141. Wimsey: Insofar as we know, only the recognized King of Westeros could do so, and as Gendry would be a threat to any of the remaining contenders for the Throne (at this point, Daeny & Tommen), neither would do so.

    Now, a King in the North or a King of the Iron Isles might be able to do so, too: but their writ would not extend to Westeros.At best, the Westerosi would just say: “Congratulations!You are a Baratheon there!Now, go away you bastard….”

    In reality, Robert’s heir after Tommen would be some cousin (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.) or another about whom we have heard nothing.Given that the noble families all intermarry, most of the noble-born characters probably would be heirs of varying distance to Robert.

    Do you think that the realm will be under just the one throne again when all is said and done?

  142. It would be cool to see Ramsey get killed my Tormund or any wilding. Let this tough guy wanna be get murdered on by a real northern tough guy, and let it be soo easy, not even a fight

  143. Is there any proof anywhere that Kit Harington has been filming other than a “Kit Harington spotted on set” quote? Any pics or first hand “I was there and saw…” quotes? Anything? This is someone quoting someone else. And now we’re quoting it as gospel. The battle is confirmed…we got pics. Jon Snow? We need a wee bit more proof I think. (Any chance it’s an undead Jon Snow filming? Leading an army of resurrected dead Starks? Probs not?)

  144. Robb Snow,

    Sophie has literally been in a different country during all of the Iron Islands filming so far, and what narrative purpose is served by her going there? Basically every potential development suggested by her storyline last year and her filming so far has pointed to her remaining in the North.

  145. Dornish Pastie: They might be using part of the Alys Karstark subplot (‘a grey girl, fleeing from a marriage’) and transferring it to Sansa.

    Indeed, although remember that Book!Ramsay never was after Alys: he probably had no idea that she was there or even who Alys was. Book!Ramsay just assumed that his bride and Reek fled to the Wall for reasons we do not yet know: although the Battle of Ice happened before For the Watch, GRRM’s narrative has reversed the order. The difference is that we know why Show!Ramsay would assume that Sansa fled to the Wall: he himself told her that her half-brother is there.

    My question on this is: where is the Night’s Watch? Are they still around, or did Ramsay wipe them out as he promises to do in the Pink Letter? I have a suspicion that the decision to “save” the Watch by assassinating Jon is going to prove to be the destruction of the Watch: because GRRM is the sort of authors who does like irony!

    (If nothing else, then I hope that good old Ed gets out in one piece!)

  146. SciFiFantasyGirl: Do you think that the realm will be under just the one throne again when all is said and done?

    I do not know: but I do suspect that it will be one of the lesser issues by the time that Dream happens.

  147. Wimsey: Sort of.In this world, it might be confirmed that he is Rhaegar’s and Lyanna’s son.However, he is still a bastard: and the Westerosi seem to firmly believe that “trueborn” children truly are the progeny of their parents, whereas bastards are somehow tainted.This might seem silly: but, then, it was firmly believed by Europeans until recently!

    He will be Jon.He will (like Daeny, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, etc.) be different than he was due to his experiences.However, Winter Jon will be an evolutionary step from Dragons Jon, not some metamorphosis from Dragons Jon.

    And, in the end, Azor Ahai will prove to be just a person, or just three people, who did the right things in the right places at the right time.Legend and time will apotheosize them: but Jon’s not going to be a god in his lifetime!

    Arya might not be: it’s possible that her Riverlands stuff will be through Nymerria.Given that she’s going to be blind at the outset of the year, and given that she is in Essos post-blindness, and given that she gets about an hour of screen time each season, it seems like a bit much to have her actually physically returned to Westeros.

    Unless Howland Reed finally surfaces and spreads the truth, and that part of that truth is a knowledge of a secret wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna, making Jon legitimate. And if so, maybe he does have another name that Lyanna gave him?
    But then, if all this happened, would people just take Howland at his word? Or is there proof somewhere.
    I just feel like we are going to learn some really big things regarding Jon that proves him the be the key to everything. I’ve had that feeling from the very beginning about him.

  148. mau: Roose didn’t say they don’t have any allies in the North.

    Well, he did if you listen between the lines!

    He also says “I’m a vampire” between the lines, too. Or is he recommending lottery ticket numbers? It’s so hard to say: people often do not agree on what is between the lines!

    😉

    Seriously, you are correct. Saying that he cannot withstand a rebellion and saying that he is in danger of a rebellion are two very different things. The Starks could not have withstood concerted rebellion, either. Roose seems intent on making sure that the natives are not too restless: hence his admonishing of Ramsay.

  149. Curious to know if there is any outward sign of change with Jon.
    Gendry’s best hope of climbing the ladder could be with Jon. Maybe something will come of that line in book 1 where Ned said if the lad decides he wants to use a sword rather than make them let me know. Gendry could end up a warrior hero.

  150. Oh MY GOOOOD!
    Dying in 3, 2, 1… Jon/Kit+ Battle+ GoT’s episode= AWESOME
    Miguel Sapochnik director, please!!!!
    Thanks (I’m in heaven, now…) 🙂

  151. I’m amazed we havent heard anything about David and Dan going through divorce…considering the amount of encounters like this they have.
    Maybe they never stray. Although Benioff’s face is hilarious, he loves the attention from young women.

  152. FWIW, Vanity Fair is reporting this spoiler and is appropriately crediting WOTW:

    Watchers on the Wall, the Game of Thrones community site that has quite the knack for breaking news, has this to report from their little birds in Ireland.

    http://http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/09/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-battle?mbid=social_twitter

    Back to the spoiler itself:
    I am not quite clear on Davos’ motivation in this scenario. In the books, he is still in Stannis’ service when he goes looking for Rickon. With Stannis dead, he could just bail on this conflict and head home. Perhaps once he witnesses Mel’s resurrection of Jon, he will, finally, become a believer in the Lord of Light and follow Jon into battle.

  153. SciFiFantasyGirl: But then, if all this happened, would people just take Howland at his word? Or is there proof somewhere.

    Howland has a birth certificate, but the Lannisters will say it’s faked and that Jon is from Kenya.

    Seriously, I have no idea what could be “proof” in their world. They cannot do paternity tests as we know them. There might be magical analogs that Melisandre could do: but much like Obama’s birth certificate, the people who want to believe Jon is not at Targaryen would deny that the magic was real. Bran could whisper it through the trees: but the people who didn’t want to hear it would not hear it.

    Given Jon’s character, my bet is that he would throw his lot in with Daeny when shove comes to push. Jon knows fully well that the Iron Thrones is a petty issue right now. But Jon also has shown that he repays loyalty with loyalty: and if Daeny rushes to his succor after returning to Westeros, Jon will not forget that.

    However, this does raise two interesting and distinct questions: how will we the audience learn, and how will the characters in the story learn? Or will more than a few ever learn?

  154. Sean C.,

    I don’t think that that line was so important. It would be awkward for him to say: We don’t have enough men to hold the North, if the other Houses, except Karstarks, rise up against us.

    It was there to explain why marriage with Sansa was needed, but it was open enough for potential allies to show up in S6.

    Boltons need someone with them, and it would be easy for the show to explain why Karstarks.

    So, Boltons, Freys and Karstarks IMO.

  155. Sean C.:
    mau,

    Or, at least, where the show has decided to move her TWOW plot.

    I don’t think she will be in the Vale until the end, and the North has been always a logical location for every Stark.

  156. LordDavos:
    Curious to know if there is any outward sign of change with Jon.
    Gendry’s best hope of climbing the ladder could be with Jon. Maybe something will come of that line in book 1 where Ned said if the lad decides he wants to use a sword rather than make them let me know. Gendry could end up a warrior hero.

    Like maybe an undead Jon Stark? Or were you thinking a white haired Targaryen Jon Snow?

  157. mariamb:

    Perhaps once he witnesses Mel’s resurrection of Jon, he will, finally, become a believer in the Lord of Light and follow Jon into battle.

    That, or he believes that Boltons killed Stannis and he wants revenge.

  158. mau,

    Not until the end of the story, obviously, but we’ve already got Sansa’s first TWOW chapter. TWOW is going to be absolutely crammed, but let’s say, based off past practice, that she’s got 5-6 additional chapters coming (her top figure is 8 in ACOK, but some of those “Blackwater” chapters are quite short). Just based on Alayne I, Alayne II looks like it’s going to be the tourney, which seems to have been built up as a place where something significant will happen. That gets us about a third of the way through her plot for that book, and it doesn’t seem like Littlefinger’s plan is anywhere near fruition (we don’t even know what he wants to do about her being married, etc.). Conversely, GRRM has spent a lot of time building up all the factions in the Vale, and that it’s a strategic location; it seems to me like it’s meant to be Sansa’s initial stage to act on, given how isolated it is from everything else.

  159. As for Brienne, I think she will escort Sansa to the Wall at the beginning of the season. Sansa will be reunited with Jon, and then she will send Brienne to find Arya.

    Brienne will go to the Riverlands and she will return to her book plot in TWOW.

  160. Sean C.,

    Maybe that is not her TWOW plot, but ADOS plot, but I think her future location is the North.

    I’m not sure that GRRM himself really knows yet, because I don’t think he has written more than 50-60% of the book.

  161. mariamb,

    Davos will surely want revenge on the Boltons, who he currently believes killed Stannis and Shireen. The best way to secure revenge is to stir revolt in the Northern Lords who refused to fight for Stannis.

    Given the way his loyalty to Stannis and affection for Shireen have been explicitly demonstrated on multiple occasions in the show, it’s unlikely he would ever simply pack up and go home. Especially since he no longer has a family to go home to.

    His only purpose left is to get revenge. And until he learns otherwise his sights will be set firmly on the Boltons.

  162. Mooease:
    A lot to digest with the episode 9 news, I’m wondering the following
    – Besides the obvious betrayal, what moves Jon to head south considering he knows the ultimate threat beyond the wall?
    – What role does Sansa play in the anti-bolton forces? With this news, I am thinking she’s headed to the Riverlands with Brienne.
    – Is Davos the one to find Rickon and bring the GNC into motion with the Umbers as opposed to Sansa – Jon and Rickon united?
    – Vale forces role
    – I always was cognizant of the Northern families view towards the Wildlings, wonder if this dynamic will come into play if they have to work together to oust the Boltons.
    – Would it really be the Boltons vs. Jon, Umbers, Wildlings – The Karstarks have to be supporting the Boltons or else the odds would be massively against Roose & Ramsay to even want to consider leaving Winterfell. Hoping some Frey forces make it down and Littlefinger/Vale feign allegiance.

    A lot to digest, too much while waiting lol

    Sansa could arrive at the Wall and inform Jon about what has happened with Ramsay and that Ramsay would be looking for her. Sansa could then play out the Pink Letter in a verbally direct manner. Davos could be send to look for Rickon.

    At Hardhome Jon has spoken about a need for people to unite if they want to beat the White Walkers. Jon knows that only a united front stands a chance. Jon’s main concern is the White Walkers, but he has done all that can be done from the Wall. No one in the North will send him more recruits with the Boltons in charge. He has already gathered all of the Wildlings. He needs a stronger force. One way to gain a stronger force against the White Walkers would be to unite the North. If Jon can unite the North behind him then he will have a much stronger force against the White Walkers. It is the only logical conclusion for Jon to make, he is not going to improve their situation by hanging around at the Wall, he needs to spread the word and he needs more people to fight against the White Walkers.

    The show did not have Robb naming an heir but we know there is still people around in the North who knew about Robb’s will. Perhaps Robb’s lost will could come into play this season.

    Littlefinger might have great plans for the army of the Vale but at some point Littlefinger will have to overplay his hand. Everything so far has gone his way, but at some point they will need to start sewing the seeds for his downfall. Littlefinger is obviously very clever but he is not a battle commander. The weather conditions in the North are currently atrocious, how prepared would he be for marching a few thousand soldiers into those conditions? He understands Southern politics, but Northern politics are slightly different especially in the winter. It is going to be really difficult for any outsider or Southern Army to currently be effective in the North, as we clearly saw with Stannis last season.

  163. Damn. This has been a pretty amazing week for Game of Thrones-related news overall, but it’s hard to imagine anything topping this (The only things that might rival it are precise, detailed descriptions of Jon’s resurrection scene or the Tower of Joy sequence that’s due to be filmed in a few weeks). My thanks to the WOTW team, their sources, and the many altruistic spies all over Northern Ireland who brought us this information! Their keen eyes and hard work have reaped a massive reward!

    We all knew that Jon would return to life sooner rather than later and that the massive battle scene being set up in Northern Ireland would likely involve the Boltons and Northern forces loyal to the Starks. But confirmation that those two storylines will indeed intersect – in Episode 9, no less – has to qualify as one the biggest stories that this website and those who follow the production have ever had the privilege of breaking or witnessing. The implications are fairly massive.

    For one thing, this report pretty much tells us how and when House Bolton will ultimately fall. If Ramsay and Jon cross paths during this battle, there’s no good reason to believe that Ramsay will escape that encounter with his life. I could see them having a massive one-on-one duel around which the entire final act of the battle turns, with Jon finally cutting Ramsay down. However, I could also see Ramsay survive the battle, only to be captured and executed as Sansa watches. That would be equally fitting.

    Roose seems less likely to go down in some kind of pitched swordfight, but I think having Jon take Roose’s head as justice for Robb’s death while Ned’s children and loyal bannerman watch would qualify as a pretty satisfying end for the character. While even talking about Roose’s likely death makes me feel a little bit sad – he’s been one of my favorite characters on the show, and Michael McElhatton is a treasure – I have to concede that his time on the show has just about run its course (The same can be said for Iwan Rheon and Ramsay, but then again, I was ready to see Ramsay die last year at Stannis’s hands when it seemed like he was being set up to take Winterfell). Keeping the Boltons around for another year so that they can be brought down by Northmen is highly satisfying from a dramatic perspective, and I’m glad that’s what the show is doing. Nevertheless, can be little doubt that our time with our favorite flayers from the Dreadfort is drawing short.

    Jon being involved in the battle also tells us more about the potential timeline of his resurrection. It seems far more likely now that he’ll be return fairly early in the season, rather than saving his revival as a late-season game-changer. He may not be brought back in the first episode or two, but if he’s fighting in a battle by Episode 9, it will probably happen in the first half of the season. Even if Jon was, as they say, only “mostly dead”, he’ll still need a few episodes to work through all of the physical, mythological, and emotional consequences of everything that happened to him. Then he’ll need an episode or two to rally the Wildlings and march South (Tormund may lead them, but I presume that if the Wildlings are going to take part in a battle South of the Wall, then Jon will be the one who convinces them to fight). That’s easily enough material for a deep and satisfying arc, and doesn’t even include the possibility that he might reunite with Sansa and/or Rickon at some point before the end of the season.

    If that weren’t enough, there are still many more questions about the roles and positions of the other forces who may be involved in the battle: Sansa, Rickon and the Umbers, Baelish and the Vale Knights, Melisandre and Davos, the Karstarks, and more. I think it’s safe to say that this piece of news should keep our minds busy for a while. 🙂

  164. voxu,

    We’ll see. Not that I have any great affection for them. Just that there’s still a massive loose end which I think the producers and the viewers are unlikely to forget about.

  165. mau,

    This… makes sense. I actually totally forgot about Brienne still being closeby. She may well find Sansa and Theon and take them to Castle Black. She might also join Jon for the final showdown with the Boltons. She also has a Valyrian steel sword which will be critical to have when the Others finally come, so she just may be staying in the North for quite a while, perhaps even the rest of the series.

    Sansa being at Castle Black would also make Jon even more inclined to fight the Boltons if Ramsay sent him the Pink Letter, as it would be a legitimate threat at that point.

    Scratch everything I said about her going to the Iron Islands… although I’m still curious to know how Theon gets there since we know that’s where he’ll be at some point this season.

  166. I’m sticking to my theory that NewJon will realize Ramsay is worth keeping around and put him in charge of one of his armies to fight The Others.

  167. Big news! I don’t know if I’m more excited to see Jon or Northern armies including the Umbers.

    Though it looks kinda like we’ll pretty much make it through the season with human v. human being the main conflict. Nothing wrong with that. But I kinda hope we get a little White Walkers fix somewhere along the way.

  168. Robb Snow:
    mau,
    Scratch everything I said about her going to the Iron Islands… although I’m still curious to know how Theon gets there since we know that’s where he’ll be at some point this season.

    I see 3 options.

    1. Yara is at DM and Theon will go there before KM
    2. After Kingsmoot, Damphair will tell Yara to find Theon, so they can use him against Euron; Yara will give Sansa DM in exchange for Theon
    3. Yara will give Sansa something else(soldiers, gold,…) in exchange for Theon

  169. Boudica:
    Littlefinger might have great plans for the army of the Vale but at some point Littlefinger will have to overplay his hand. Everything so far has gone his way, but at some point they will need to start sewing the seeds for his downfall. Littlefinger is obviously very clever but he is not a battle commander. The weather conditions in the North are currently atrocious, how prepared would he be for marching a few thousand soldiers into those conditions? He understands Southern politics, but Northern politics are slightly different especially in the winter. It is going to be really difficult for any outsider or Southern Army to currently be effective in the North, as we clearly saw with Stannis last season.

    Littlefinger’s not a general, but there are generals in the Vale army. And we learned last season that apparently the Vale army is “trained to fight in ice and snow”.

  170. Jared: Roose seems less likely to go down in some kind of pitched swordfight, but I think having Jon take Roose’s head as justice for Robb’s death while Ned’s children and loyal bannerman watch would qualify as a pretty satisfying end for the character.

    This, yes! A great execution, on a massive scale that the north will remember!

  171. Robb Snow,

    “I don’t want anyone following me. I’m not a leader. All I ever wanted was to fight for a Lord I believed in. But the good Lords are dead, and the rest are monsters” – Brienne

    If there’s one character in the show that still qualifies as a good Lord, it’s Jon Snow. They could easily have her find her way into Jon’s company as she stomps round the North looking for Sansa, or by reuniting Sansa with her family.

    Alternatively, they could go in the opposite direction, and have it so that Brienne herself turns out to be a leader and a “good Lord”, whom people are willing to follow.

  172. Galli,

    I suspect Melisandre is going to be lashed to Jon’s funeral pyre, Mirri Maz Duur-style, and while she burns, he emerges, reborn of salt and smoke. So when she saw herself walking the walls of Winterfell, that’s actually through Jon’s eyes. Jon ain’t becoming the new servant of the Red God, not my reading of his direction.

  173. mau,

    I like this idea. Their relationship has been growing increasingly strained over the series, and will no doubt continue to do so when Roose inevitably chastises Ramsay over the loss of Theon and Sansa, and when Roose’s son by Walda is born or near birth. It also just feels… right. More so than Roose simply dying in battle or being executed.

  174. Paul,

    I hate the idea of Melisandre being sacrificed. That’s still so much about her to explore. If she is killed off, it really devalues her narrative arc. It makes her some kind of Hammer Horror B movie-bimbo. Pretty insulting to an actress of Carice’s calibre if they don’t have big narrative plans for Mel. She’s the closest thing this show has to a Gandalf figure.

  175. mariamb: FWIW, Vanity Fair is reporting this spoiler and is appropriately crediting WOTW:

    Watchers on the Wall, the Game of Thrones community site that has quite the knack for breaking news, has this to report from their little birds in Ireland.

    Just read the article on Vanity Fair via Twitter. Hasn’t started trending yet but as the news spreads, it probably will. I don’t imagine production is going to be very happy….
    lol

  176. The more I think of it, and the more I see everyone out for Ramsay’s blood in a macabre fitting vengeful way….the less I think that will ever happen. Ramsay will probably die at some point, but I don’t think there will be that ‘eye for an eye’, villagers-holding-pitchforks type of scenario. It just seems a little too predictable in its irony.

  177. Hi-Fi,

    think it would go the wall as first line,winterfell as the second,then either harren hall(its big and apparently hard to take) or the neck/twins

  178. Boudica,

    The time for Robb’s Will has come and gone. I doubt that it will be a factor in the books, either. It probably was a posting on the wall on which GRRM was re-hanging the “Who is Jon’s Mother?” Gun again. The fact that it has never again come up (despite how often people read it between the lines!) in two subsequent books suggests to me that this is a Mt. Molehill!

    Indeed, what is telling is that the episode to introduce it was one that GRRM himself penned! Now, obviously the issue of the Will would have to be re-raised – nobody remembers trivial details from Season 3 at this point – but it shiuld have been done by Robb there. (This is a rare exception to the “do not introduce things before they are important” rule: something like that has to be introduced before a key character’s death.)

  179. Laura,

    The history of Westeros says “don’t legitimize bastards!”

    At any rate, Tommen almost certainly will not be around long enough for this to be an issue.

  180. aabe,

    I hope Ramsay will be just on the verge of killing Jon just to toy with the audience… then Ghost rushes in and tears Ramsay’s throat right out of his neck (or perhaps tears off his dick for even more poetic justice)

    This is a really enjoyable discussion btw. Lots of great speculation and insights into the potential storyline of S6 and Snowbowl. Big thanks to Sue and co. for breaking the good news!

  181. Sorry mis read. I wonder if Jon will keep the blacks and effectively be the King Crow the wildlings were calling him at Hardhome even if he severs ties with the Nights Watch.

  182. Last season, with all everything that happened with Stannis and people getting upset, I took a guess that maybe

    Jon Snow would be taking on Stannis’ role in the book. Rounding up the North and such.

    No reason to have that happen twice with two characters.

  183. Galli,

    She’s definitely living to see the Snowbowl won based on her prophecies about Bolton banners and herself on the WF walls in s5. Not to mention she’s living through s6 because she said she’d meet Arya again. So I wouldn’t be worried about Mel. She’s got a lot of living left to do.

  184. This news and various theories of how the battle will go down have made my day – nay week!

    The only thing that could possibly make the news better if it comes out that the Hill Tribes join the battle as well!
    Shagga likes axes!

  185. Laura: Understood and agreed. I was just responding to the person up there ^ who said House Baratheon was dead. It’s not.

    It would be kind of wild to have Gendry get legitimatized and end up with Arya. Ned said Gendry looked like a young Robert and he said that Arya looked like Lyanna. And there we have the Baratheon/Stark wedding that was supposed to happen long ago 🙂

  186. Jared: Roose seems less likely to go down in some kind of pitched swordfight, but I think having Jon take Roose’s head as justice for Robb’s death while Ned’s children and loyal bannerman watch would qualify as a pretty satisfying end for the character

    What if the Vale army comes to Winterfell with Littlefinger pretending that they are reinforcement troops for the Boltons just to turn their cloaks when the battle against the Stark loyalists and Wildlings begins? Of course Roose is already suspicious of Baelish, so I don’t know if he would fall for the trick, but there is a little bit of build-up for this: LF’s “The last time the Lords of the Eyrie formed an alliance with the Lords of the North”-speech, his promise to Cercei to bring her Sansa’s head (to keep his true intentions questionable until he betrays Roose). And why would LF go north with ‘his’ army? He is no military strategist and no battle commander – what is he supposed to do there until Winterfell is captured in 6×09? Sitting in a tent and discussing the siege with Royce for 4-6 episodes? It makes more sense that he is already in Winterfell before the battle begins so he could have scenes with the Boltons (and maybe Sansa) and be the “POV-character” there. I could definitely see him drive a dagger into Roose’s heart whispering “Catelyn Tully sends her regards” or something like this 😀

  187. SciFiFantasyGirl: It would be kind of wild to have Gendry get legitimatized and end up with Arya.Ned said Gendry looked like a young Robert and he said that Arya looked like Lyanna.And there we have the Baratheon/Stark wedding that was supposed to happen long ago

    The romantic in me so wants this.

  188. SciFiFantasyGirl: It would be kind of wild to have Gendry get legitimatized and end up with Arya.

    It would be more “Arya” if she married a still illegitimate Gendry. Of course, one thing to remember is that GRRM intended Arya to be about 17 or so when the series ended when he wrote that. Because everyone seems to apparate in his books, only a couple of years have passed by, and GRRM decided to fill in the 5 year gap. The show obviously has more to play with, as Williams is an adult and they aren’t bothering to pretend that Arya isn’t a young adult.

    (Still, Arya might be 14 or so by the end of the books, and that is damn near “old maid” in Westeros and Essos, it seems! Well, assuming that the books ever get completed….)

  189. What if the Vale army comes to Winterfell with Littlefinger pretending that they are reinforcement troops for the Boltons just to turn their cloaks when the battle against the Stark loyalists and Wildlings begins? Of course Roose is already suspicious of Baelish, so I don’t know if he would fall for the trick, but there is a little bit of build-up for this: LF’s “The last time the Lords of the Eyrie formed an alliance with the Lords of the North”-speech, his promise to Cercei to bring her Sansa’s head (to keep his true intentions questionable until he betrays Roose). And why would LF go north with ‘his’ army? He is no military strategist and no battle commander – what is he supposed to do there until Winterfell is captured in 6×09? Sitting in a tent and discussing the siege with Royce for 4-6 episodes? It makes more sense that he is already in Winterfell before the battle begins so he could have scenes with the Boltons (and maybe Sansa) and be the “POV-character” there. I could definitely see him drive a dagger into Roose’s heart whispering “Catelyn Tully sends her regards” or something like this 😀

  190. Amazing news!! The Battle of The Two Bastards… And get this: Miguel Sapochnik a.k.a. the guy who gave us Hardhome will direct this epic piece… I can’t wait.

  191. Laura: Understood and agreed. I was just responding to the person up there ^ who said House Baratheon was dead. It’s not.

    Ah, got it. Well, of course, given that Tommen does not have much longer, the known House Baratheon will soon be dead. However, there almost certainly is some “Harry the Heir” analog out there. It has not come up but there also has been no reason for it to have done so. I doubt that it will come up because my bet is that when Tommen is toppled, people will not be worrying about how to get another Baratheon!

  192. The King Who Cares: And why would LF go north with ‘his’ army? He is no military strategist and no battle commander – what is he supposed to do there until Winterfell is captured in 6×09? Sitting in a tent and discussing the siege with Royce for 4-6 episodes? It makes more sense that he is already in Winterfell before the battle begins so he could have scenes with the Boltons (and maybe Sansa) and be the “POV-character” there.

    Guessing what LF is going to do is tough. He is far and away the most opaque character out there. But it is quite possible that he will do something else with his army altogether. Or perhaps weather will delay them, and they will arrive in time to clinch the battle.

    But my question remains: where is the Nights Watch in all of this?

  193. Galli,

    I don’t think it’d be right for Melisandre to sacrifice herself to resurrect Jon either. At least, not yet. I could envisage her sacrificing herself at some point down the line, perhaps. But in the meantime I think she definitely needs a proper opportunity to try to corrupt Jon Snow.

    Plus, there’s the possibility of Davos finding out that it was her who killed Shireen.

    And she previously predicted that she and Arya would meet again when they encountered each other a couple of seasons back.

    So there’s a few ways in which she could eventually bow out which would make for a more interesting storyline.

  194. Selina: Nothing wrong. I love all the Starks (Sansa just a bit), but I hate Rickon. He deserves the worst

    Nooo? Sweet little Rickon who insisted he had to stay with Bran to protect him? No, that is a tough but sweet little kid, who stood up to his bigger brother but still loved him. Like in the episode where Bran told Osha that he had seen Ned in the crypts, then suddenly there were Rickon and Shaggydog down there, too. Unafraid and insistant that he also had seen Ned. So Rickon might have a bit of the “sight” as well.

    I liked the scene where he was peeved that Cat had been away so long, and sat at the table while Bran and Maester Luwin were listening to the woes of the villagers, loudly pounding nuts. but paying attention to what was going on,
    Don’t hate on that kid – he might just be the next Lord of Winterfell. If Sansa can manage to find him.

  195. West of Moon: The romantic in me so wants this.

    The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me. Just because of what I’ve read in the books and have seen so far in the show. GRRM loves to share history within the series and each piece he shares ends up being important as we get closer to the end game. A Baratheon/Stark union was supposed to happen + Ned’s comments about the looks of each of the kids = a redemption of sorts 🙂

    And then we all lived happily ever after! LOL Yah, right. *muffled sob*

  196. West of Moon,

    “The romantic in me so wants this.”

    Me too 😛 but apart from that it makes sense to me. (No real logical reason to offer here though, except he’s one of the very few she cared about.) Also as Wimsy said, Arya will marry whoever the Hell she damn well wants to, legitimate or not. (That’s my girl!)
    Re Jon Snow’s possible legitimacy – there’s the Robb decree, but also in the back of my mind there’s ‘something in Lyanna’s crypt that will verify who he is. TBH I can’t recall if it was book, or show, or just a fan theory now, but it struck me reading about his crypt dreams that there’s something significant there. A crypt gun (or harp) if you will 😛

    And – I’m all for BastardBowl – love it!

  197. Wimsey,

    I feel like the Night’s Watch will be more or less irrelevant because I think that either the Wildlings will retaliate for Jon’s murder before he is revived, and take out many of them. If not they will be killed by the WWs trying to defend the wall after Jon has left the wall. They are a lost cause with all the influential members either dead or unwilling to listen to those they should.

  198. Wimsey: (If nothing else, then I hope that good old Ed gets out in one piece!)

    Why Wimsey, a tinge of the sentimental from you? Who woulda thought? I, too, rooted for good old Edd – all during Hardhome I was mumbling, Oh, not Edd, too? Damn, don’t kill Edd too. When I heard him say “Oh, Fu**!!!” as the wights came pounding through, I figured he would be ok.

  199. I think 6×09 will be the long waited Stark Revenge!

    My predictions:

    1- Arya kills Walder Frey
    2- Lady Stoneheart hangs Jaime (please, not Jaime)
    3- Jon and Rickon’s wildling army beat Ramsay and Roose.

  200. KG,

    Thank you so much ! Things in Girona are very difficult. I took these videoclips throught a black canvas, a line of fences, two security guards and over a little wall at 50 meters distance of the action. And a member of the production watched me and paid me a visit to told to me that the creators didn’t like that people took pictures. I said that I was at the public street and noone can forbid me to film. And I said too: what ? All the scenarios are covered but canvas, fences and security guards … the actors arrive at the set in cars with black windows and when they are in a “weak area” two people hide them with two or even three umbrellas … how we can take pictures ? And I added : if this area is a “weak area” sorry for you … your pain is my gain …it’s unbeliveable that they strike the city, close the streets, forbid the people to go out the balcony or to look throught the windows in their own home, put canvas, fences, security guards … almost impossible to see the actors … people aren’t happy with that. The creators say that they must be very cautios because is the first season without a book … Anyway …is like a battle between they and the fans of the serie.

    Sorry for my bad english !

  201. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
    Galli,

    I don’t think it’d be right for Melisandre to sacrifice herself to resurrect Jon either. At least, not yet. I could envisage her sacrificing herself at some point down the line, perhaps. But in the meantime I think she definitely needs a proper opportunity to try to corrupt Jon Snow.

    Plus, there’s the possibility of Davos finding out that it was her who killed Shireen.

    And she previously predicted that she and Arya would meet again when they encountered each other a couple of seasons back.

    So there’s a few ways in which she could eventually bow out which would make for a more interesting storyline.

    Will she need to sacrifice something to resurrect Jon, and if so what would it be? Or would she still be juiced up with Shireen’s sacrifice? I remember hearing or reading this from somewhere.

  202. SJH:
    West of Moon,

    “The romantic in me so wants this.”

    Me too but apart from that it makes sense to me. (No real logical reason to offer here though, except he’s one of the very few she cared about.) Also as Wimsy said, Arya will marry whoever the Hell she damn well wants to, legitimate or not. (That’s my girl!)
    Re Jon Snow’s possible legitimacy – there’s the Robb decree, but also in the back of my mind there’s ‘something in Lyanna’s crypt that will verify who he is. TBH I can’t recall if it was book, or show, or just a fan theory now, but it struck me reading about his crypt dreams that there’s something significant there. A crypt gun (or harp) if you will

    And – I’m all for BastardBowl – love it!

    Thank you for mentioning the crypt because I was going to in a previous response but I thought I’d be considered stretching it a bit too far. I too feel that there is something there that lends itself to proving Jon’s identity. Crypt scenes and dreams have happened so often, usually revolving around Lyanna. I’m glad I’m not alone in my thinking!

  203. Whoevers asking about the Vale getting up to Winterfell in time – to get to Winterfell you pretty much have to go through Moat Cailin (or around like Brienne did), but I potentially would suspect the vale army is cleaning out Moat Cailin first since the Boltons hold that too.

  204. KimberBenton: I fear, we will not see the dragons on set this year… because they are usually not on set

    Yeah yeah. But people are generally aware when they are supposed to be interacting with the dragons because they are directed to act as though they are, or as though they’re being set on fire, things along those lines. I’m not hearing anything people about being made to scream at and act like a tennis ball on a stick is a dragon. If that changes, I will definitely let you all know in another post. 🙂

    A battle this big, there’s bound to be more info forthcoming.

  205. SJH
    Yeah, I agree with that. I love the whole sorta ‘fate finding a way’ possibility there. And I love that Arya wouldn’t give a care if he was legitimized or not, that’s never been a big deal to her. I just want them together either way (that whole “I could be your family” “No you’d be my lady” thing kills me).

    SiFiFantasyGirl
    I love that idea of s clue being in Lyanna’s crypt. Although LF seems to also know about Jon’s parentage (or hints like he does). And if I recall correctly, in one of the book flashbacks to the ToJ, it mentions “They showd up” while Ned was mourning over Lyanna’s body so its possible others out there may know of his (possible; though I’m a firm believer) parentage as well, whoever this “They”is, and can also confirm it.

  206. Now that I think about it… the Wildlings fighting the Boltons means WunWun will be in the battle, too, right? Maybe he stomps on Ramsay 😉 Flaying a giant isn’t that easy…

    Maybe WunWun will also be the Faith’ champion in Cercei’s trial by combat 😀

  207. Mihnea,

    Based on the tired, predictable show-writing from last season, I agree. It’ll probably be written by the same idiot who thought Brienne killing Stannis was a really clever, original idea that no one would see coming.

  208. Wimsey,

    On the contrary, I think the will is due to come up again, seeing as the two people in the North who know of its contents (Lady Mormont and Master Glover) are pointedly MIA in ADWD.

    The King Who Cares,

    With what the Boltons did last season, it wouldn’t make any sense for them to let Littlefinger anywhere near him. They completely broke the terms of their alliance the second they turned Sansa, Littlefinger’s emissary/ally, into an imprisoned sex slave. Beyond which, Littlefinger never said anything about returning with an army to them, so they’d be rather suspicious of that anyway.

  209. Does anyone think that Edmure will somehow return at some point?

    And does anyone think Benjen will resurface when the big WW showdown happens?

  210. SciFiFantasyGirl,

    Unless he’s too busy wreaking havoc over on Outlander, I’d expect to see Edmure again at some point, seeing as the show left his character in play (much like the Blackfish, he could have been killed if they were done with him).

  211. Question: Do these theater videos and footage of the actors confirm that Richard E Grant’s role is NOT in fact one of the travelling acting group?

  212. West of Moon:

    SiFiFantasyGirl
    I love that idea of s clue being in Lyanna’s crypt. Although LF seems to also know about Jon’s parentage (or hints like he does). And if I recall correctly, in one of the book flashbacks to the ToJ, it mentions “They showd up” while Ned was mourning over Lyanna’s body so its possible others out there may know of his (possible; though I’m a firm believer) parentage as well, whoever this “They”is, and can also confirm it.

    Yes! Who was there with Howland Reed?

    So many questions and never a guarantee of answers!

  213. Sue the Fury: Yeah yeah. But people are generally aware when they are supposed to be interacting with the dragons because they are directed to act as though they are, or as though they’re being set on fire, things along those lines. I’m not hearing anything people about being made to scream at and act like a tennis ball on a stick is a dragon. If that changes, I will definitely let you all know in another post.

    A battle this big, there’s bound to be more info forthcoming.

    I take my hat off to you, Sue, and your wonderful team of little birds. This is by far the best Game of Thrones related site in the web. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

  214. If this battle really takes place in Ep 9 (or even 10) color me surprised. I really thought if they were bringing Jon back this season, that would be the big finale payoff (or close to it). But this likely means he comes back maybe even as early as mid – season.

  215. SciFiFantasyGirl,

    Here’s my prediction: Thorne and his cronies will pin Jon’s murder on Olly and lock him away somewhere so he can’t spill the beans. They’ll put Jon’s body on a funeral pyre as is Night’s Watch custom, and Mel will say a somewhat halfhearted final rite. But the Red God will hear her, and when the pyre burns out… Jon will rise from the ashes alive and unburnt, mirroring Dany’s scene from the end of Season/Book 1 (which I believe was also the work of the Red God), leaving everyone in total awe and finally causing Mel to realize who the true Warrior of Light is.

    This also mirrors the story Thoros told Mel about how he first brought Beric to life. He reached a low point in his faith just like Mel has, but when R’hllor unexpectedly responded to Thoros’s prayer and brought Beric back to life, his faith in the Lord of Light was fully restored. I believe this will be Mel’s arc as well.

  216. SciFiFantasyGirl,

    Well, Thoros of Myr merely needed to appeal to the Red God for mercy to resurrect Beric Dondarrion. No sacrifices were needed.

    Thoros recalled how he had lost his faith, but when he saw his friend dead he appealed to the Lord of Light even though he no longer believed and the Red God answered him.

    It’s probably fair to say that Melisandre’s faith is in question right now, having seen Stannis turn out not to be Azor Ahai after all. Perhaps all she will need to do is appeal to the Lord of Light and Jon’s resurrection will be a gift that restores her faith, as Beric’s resurrection restored Thoros’s.

    I think the fact that Jon probably has Targaryen blood may somehow play a part. In Season 3, I think, Jaime told Brienne that the Mad King had intended to burn in the wildfire along with everybody in King’s Landing “and rise again, reborn as a dragon, to turn his enemies to ash”. Will Jon rise again, reborn as a dragon (Targaryen)?

  217. Sean C.,

    One, the fact that they were MIA is reason to think it is irrelevant. If it was important then GRRM would have brought it back to the forefront, as he did with other long-standing issues.

    Two, making Sansa a “sex slave” is Westerosi marriage. Husbands pretty much own their wives. Modern notions of marriage as a “partnership” do not apply to Westetos. It applied almost nowhere in our world half a century ago: and it still is a alien concrpt in many places.

    As for Zlittlefinger having an army, no doubt he is clever enough to design some pretext. Indeed, if the Vale armies are as winter capable ad they claim, then they can loop around while LF approaches with a smaller force. After all, communications will probably be low, and besides, the main threat is ended!

  218. I must say, season 6 is shaping up to be possibly the best season yet…

    A huge Northern battle
    Jon’s ressurection
    Return of Osha and Rickon
    The fall of the Boltons (hopefully)
    Return to the Riverlands
    Return of the Hound
    Septon Meribald’s speech (maybe…)
    Cersei and Frankenmountain butchering people
    OldTown
    Meeting the Tarlys
    Return of the IronBorne (and introduction of Euron)
    Return of the Dothraki
    Tyrion & Varys ruling Meereen
    Tower of Joy
    (Other assorted flashbacks)

    …Have I forgotten any?

  219. SciFiFantasyGirl,

    You’re not alone…
    I suspect something is in the crypts to help reveal or prove Jon’s heritage, although I have never been able to figure out exactly what. Maybe Rhaegar’s harp, the Winter Rose crown he gave Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty at the Harrenhal tourney, historic scrolls or journal?

    I’m not sure any would necessarily prove anything, but they may help show the connection between Rhaegar and Lyanna was less abduction and rape and more eloping and love… Maybe.

  220. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    For some reason, many people seem convinced the Mel needs to learn some incantation like Harry Potter or something. But as you note, resurrection takes just a prayer.

    Heh, at least people have backed off of the idea that Mel will be dragging Jon’s rotting corpse around Westeros looking for Thoros!

  221. Wimsey,
    I know but with Ned saying “they”, perhaps Reed left and brought someone back with him? Wylla maybe?
    In one of the McShane announcements a few people had said perhaps he is going to be Reed.

  222. Robb Snow,

    I’ve imagined something similar as well..
    Maybe Jon walks out of the flames instead of letting them die down.. Although I do like the symmetry of him being revealed as the flames die.

  223. Im pretty sure one bolton will live. And i bet all my money will be Ramsay. DD like very much ramsay. I think Roose will be captured and crucified. Ramsay will see the batlle going down and run away.

    I really like the boltons. And i hope they live more. I want they to die but latter haha.

    I would love to see Ramsay killed by Euron or The Hound.

  224. Wimsey,

    Ever heard of the concept of the dog that didn’t bark? Keeping the mystery around where Mormont and Glover are is a way of making people speculate what’s going on with it; there’s not really anything more that needs to be done with the will until its main plot significance, whatever that is, comes up (and most of AFFC/ADWD is covering the period that GRRM had originally intended to skip over).

    Two, making Sansa a “sex slave” is Westerosi marriage. Husbands pretty much own their wives. Modern notions of marriage as a “partnership” do not apply to Westetos. It applied almost nowhere in our world half a century ago: and it still is a alien concrpt in many places.

    Ramsay’s treatment of Sansa is not remotely normal in Westeros (a point made rather pointedly with everybody’s reactions to Ramsay’s treatment of Jeyne Poole in the novels, which Roose demands that he stop because he’s dangerously undermining the Boltons’ stature with their bannermen, even though Ramsay is a fool and doesn’t), and it sure as hell isn’t how you treat someone who is meant to be the emissary of a valuable ally. Whether or not Sansa’s legal status makes her Ramsay’s property, in practice it’s not a good way to foster goodwill.

  225. SciFiFantasyGirl: It would be kind of wild to have Gendry get legitimatized and end up with Arya.Ned said Gendry looked like a young Robert and he said that Arya looked like Lyanna.And there we have the Baratheon/Stark wedding that was supposed to happen long ago

    Gendry is the only one who…whom…to whom…whatever… Arya shows a fondness for in a ‘crush’ type of way. So I always thought it’d be pretty awesome for the two of them to find each other again after a long period of time. I generally can’t stand the whole ‘pairing character up’ thing (or god forbid, some of the nauseating fanfic), but this one seems like equal ground and the classic bickering couple who nonetheless would do anything for each other. 🙂

  226. Darquemode:
    SciFiFantasyGirl,

    You’re not alone…
    I suspect something is in the crypts to help reveal or prove Jon’s heritage, although I have never been able to figure out exactly what. Maybe Rhaegar’s harp,the Winter Rose crown he gave Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty at the Harrenhal tourney, historic scrolls or journal?

    I’m not sure any would necessarily prove anything, but they may help show the connection between Rhaegar and Lyanna was less abduction and rape and more eloping and love… Maybe.

    Some theories I’ve just read of what could be waiting down there for Jon:
    – The real Lightbringer? (some say that is actually what has been heating the springs that Jon enjoyed the warmth of so much)
    – A dragon egg (or eggs)
    – Rhaegar’s Harp (“a harp can be as dangerous as a sword in the right hands”)
    – The spirits or wights of the Winter Kings waiting to come out
    – caves that lead all the way to The Wall
    – an actual dragon

    I know I know, hold on to your tin foil hats everyone. But it’s likely something proving Jon’s Targaryen heritage is hidden in Lyanna’s tomb itself. Robert would never defile her likeness and therefore never find it.

  227. SciFiFantasyGirl: – What will he be called? Is he being brought back as Azor Hai and/or The Prince That Was Promised? But the comet aspect of that prophesy would be missing both at his birth and his rebirth, unless there will be one more comet? Or is he not one of them, than what will he be?

    There might have been a comet at his birth:

    No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

    A comet in the sky could perhaps be described as a blood streaked sky.

    SciFiFantasyGirl: Unless Howland Reed finally surfaces and spreads the truth, and that part of that truth is a knowledge of a secret wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna, making Jon legitimate. And if so, maybe he does have another name that Lyanna gave him?
    But then, if all this happened, would people just take Howland at his word? Or is there proof somewhere.

    I think there is no doubt that Jon is legitimate, the whole scene with Kingsguard really spells it out. But of course it would be very difficult to prove in a practical manner. Howland Reed is always the obvious choice as someone who would know this information.
    But I do wonder if one these Septons like Septon Meribald or perhaps even the High Sparrow, might have performed the wedding ceremony. A priest might also be a good prove of such a claim.
    But then again it is very likely that it doesn’t matter if Jon is legitimate or not.

  228. Sean C.: Ever heard of the concept of the dog that didn’t bark? Keeping the mystery around where Mormont and Glover are is a way of making people speculate what’s going on with it;

    That’s not how it works. The dog that doesn’t bark is a clue when the dog should have barked. If an author wants people to speculate about something, then he/she will write about it, not not write about it. Having those characters there in some way skirting issues pertinent to Robb’s Will would be the dog not barking. This is the case of no dog at all.

    You operate under a very peculiar literary theory: you place much more importance on what is not written or what is barely written than on what is written! The story is in the words, not between the lines! Writing is not like a magicians show, where the goal is to distract the audience with 99 or 100 words, and include the important details in one (or none at all). Writing is communicating: if you want the audience to speculate, then you put the dog into the story, set up a situation where it should bark, and then have it not do so. GRRM did not do that. In contrast, with the important issues, we always see the dog at least trot by once per story.

    Sean C.: Ramsay’s treatment of Sansa is not remotely normal in Westeros (a point made rather pointedly with everybody’s reactions to Ramsay’s treatment of Jeyne Poole in the novels,

    Whether or not it is normal is quite moot. We have ample evidence that many marriages in Westeros are pretty abusive. This one is extreme, true: but the underlying cause (wives = property) is universal. And, when it comes down to it, it’s Ramsay’s word against Sansa’s. It’s not like anybody is going to testify on Sansa’s behalf.

  229. Boudica: There might have been a comet at his birth:

    A comet in the sky could perhaps be described as a blood streaked sky.

    Hmm, good call!

  230. SciFiFantasyGirl,

    The harp was my first thought because of that very quote…
    I had not thought of something in the crypts heating the springs at Winterfell…. Interesting!
    – I don’t think it would be dragon eggs personally. That seems too specifically tied to Dany, not Targaryens in general.
    – Dragon….. Doesn’t feel right for reason above.
    – Lightbringer just does not feel right to me.
    – I’ve also wondered about caves as well. It would be interesting, but not sure how it would connect to L/ R. Does it need to be connected?

    I know some have speculated Dawn may be down there as well, but I think that fits better if Ashara Dayne was Jon’s mother. Of course if Dawn is Lightbringer it could still work… Maybe.
    It still does not feel right to me for some teason…..

  231. Darquemode,

    I doubt Dawn is Lightbringer, or really much of anything except a really nice sword and an heirloom of House Dayne.

    I think Longclaw = Lightbringer. Or it might become Lightbringer later after Jon makes some kind of great sacrifice with it, perhaps by killing a loved one per the Azor Ahai prophecy (although I don’t really take the Azor Ahai, or ASoIaF prophecies in general to be 100% literal).

  232. Paul,

    no moron Jon and Mel will become a team. I guess you missed the whole ” i have seen myself walf among fallen Bolton Banners” it was obviously with JON.

  233. Well, actually that whole bit about Nissa Nissa is just from the legend if I remember correctly, and not part of any prophecies.

    …you guys really should restore the edit function btw. >_>

  234. I have to say that JS might find out from Bran about LF and his plots so just maybe in JS’s revenge the Btns are just speed bumps to get the mand behind everything.

    Roose should be taken to LSH for a visit in chains as the army of the north travels to a set of castles…as for Ram the Man I want to see him suffer, make him a combo of a theon (munch munch good doggy) and a hodor but all he can say is reek…reek! reek? Before he is let go near Pike.

  235. It’s got to be “Bastard Bowl”, right? It’s much more memorable, evocative, and original than “Snow Bowl”, in my opinion.

  236. Robb Snow,

    I don’t think Dawn= Lightbringer either.. It’s always felt wrong to me….
    I also agree the prophecies are more likely a bit more abstract as well.

  237. I think a combo of Reed and Bran will lead to the proof of who and how Jon came about. Maybe a song/poem to his unborn son on the eve of battle?

  238. King in the North Carolina:
    It’s got to be “Bastard Bowl”, right? It’s much more memorable, evocative, and original than “Snow Bowl”, in my opinion.

    I agree! It’s what I called it originally before Snowbowl started catching on. I guess Snowbowl is a little more “family friendly” though.

  239. Darquemode:
    Robb Snow,

    I don’t think Dawn= Lightbringer either.. It’s always felt wrong to me….
    I also agree the prophecies are more likely a bit more abstract as well.

    Not so much it feels wrong, more like the name Dawn and its typical meaning (both literal and figuative representation) of ‘the sun bringing light to the world’ make it seem like it wouldd obviously be Lightbringer which means it likely isn’t.
    I also think the prophecies arent as literal as they seem, but couldn’t one say that if Jon had to make a sacrifice, wouldn’t him giving up his love for Ygritte/leaving her to return yo Castle Black count as a sacrifice?

  240. Mihnea,

    Snow-Bowl for me!
    It’s just much more fitting IMO.

    A battle in snow between two Snow-named bastards taking place as Winter arrives at or nears Winterfell.

    Plus, the title already has connotations of a battle of historic proportions having been used for a number of memorable football games like the Michigan vs Ohio State college game and the Green Bay vs Tampa Bay NFL Superbowl in 1985 etc.

  241. Sean C.: Not until the end of the story, obviously, but we’ve already got Sansa’s first TWOW chapter. TWOW is going to be absolutely crammed, but let’s say, based off past practice, that she’s got 5-6 additional chapters coming (her top figure is 8 in ACOK, but some of those “Blackwater” chapters are quite short). Just based on Alayne I, Alayne II looks like it’s going to be the tourney, which seems to have been built up as a place where something significant will happen. That gets us about a third of the way through her plot for that book, and it doesn’t seem like Littlefinger’s plan is anywhere near fruition (we don’t even know what he wants to do about her being married, etc.). Conversely, GRRM has spent a lot of time building up all the factions in the Vale, and that it’s a strategic location; it seems to me like it’s meant to be Sansa’s initial stage to act on, given how isolated it is from everything else.

    Sansa’s arc might take a very different turn with Shadrich hanging around in the Vale. She might be kidnapped or something.

    Sean C.: Littlefinger’s not a general, but there are generals in the Vale army. And we learned last season that apparently the Vale army is “trained to fight in ice and snow”.

    Okay, I must have missed that they have specifically trained on ice and snow. That would be good, but the North might still be a slight surprise to them, it sounds like conditions in the North might be even worse then normal because of the bigger situation of the approaching Long Night.
    Even if the Vale Generals are fully prepared this situation could still create potential friction between the military types of the Vale and Littlefinger. Littlefinger might want to move faster or take shortcuts or something, and this could lead to tension. Basically as a non-military type Littlefinger’s ideals and demands might clash against the Generals, as they are two entities with different goals or agendas.

    Wimsey: The time for Robb’s Will has come and gone. I doubt that it will be a factor in the books, either. It probably was a posting on the wall on which GRRM was re-hanging the “Who is Jon’s Mother?” Gun again. The fact that it has never again come up (despite how often people read it between the lines!) in two subsequent books suggests to me that this is a Mt. Molehill!

    Indeed, what is telling is that the episode to introduce it was one that GRRM himself penned! Now, obviously the issue of the Will would have to be re-raised – nobody remembers trivial details from Season 3 at this point – but it shiuld have been done by Robb there. (This is a rare exception to the “do not introduce things before they are important” rule: something like that has to be introduced before a key character’s death

    That is properly correct. Robb’s will is very likely erased from the show. I might be wrong but I am sure I ve seen a few times that GRRM have stated that Robb’s will, will be addressed in TWOW. But I dont have a source or anything, I ve just seen it before.

    SciFiFantasyGirl: Some theories I’ve just read of what could be waiting down there for Jon:
    – The real Lightbringer? (some say that is actually what has been heating the springs that Jon enjoyed the warmth of so much)
    – A dragon egg (or eggs)
    – Rhaegar’s Harp (“a harp can be as dangerous as a sword in the right hands”)
    – The spirits or wights of the Winter Kings waiting to come out
    – caves that lead all the way to The Wall
    – an actual dragon

    I know I know, hold on to your tin foil hats everyone.But it’s likely something proving Jon’s Targaryen heritage is hidden in Lyanna’s tomb itself.Robert would never defile her likeness and therefore never find it.

    There might be something in the tomb, but it would have to be something really practical such as Rheagar’s last will, a marriage contract or two marriage cloaks (even the cloaks might not be enough). Some actual document preferably with a seal would be the best.

    All of the other objects such harps and even dragon eggs will not proof anything about Jon being legitimate. I do think there might actually be dragon eggs somewhere in Winterfell, as it was speculated that Silverwing might have laid some egg there, but it would not proof anything.
    If Jon and Dany or rather Jon and Dany’s dragons ever met and he doesn’t get roasted then people might also perhaps believe that he is a legitimate Targaryen.

  242. Hodor’s Bastard,

    Hey, HB! Do you think that this news has any implications for the “Nationalist” vs. “Loyalist” aspects of the Nights Watch?

    I am wondering if there will be a Pink Letter: this scenario is very similar to the one that would have played out (and probably still will play out) had the Nationalists not tried to off Jon.

  243. This play gives arya information she didn’t know about back home and triggers stuff from how it slanders her family, especially her father. I really need either season 6 or winds to come out now, it is kinda getting on my nerves that we don’t have either

  244. Meera Reed will discover her destiny, she is the REDEEMER. Jon Snow her TWIN BROTHER will lead The White Walkers. Meera, Bran and Ayra will ride ICE DRAGONS.

    Rickon will become Warden of the North.

    Dany, Tyrion, “this is the hardest pick for the 3rd rider”

    In the END there will be a truce, NOBODY WINS the final fight.

    We then find out….SANSA STARK claims the Iron Throne after The Vale army
    defeats the Lannister’s at Kings Landing.

    Then the Game of Thrones starts all over again.

  245. That’s Georgie’s fault for taking 20 years to put out give books. I thoroughly enjoyed watching Linda Antonsson work herself into an epic nerd rage over the end of S5, and her and Elio’s associated sycophants go ballistic because the show was “spoiling” them. Call it payback for all the times they intentionally spoiled people who never read the books.

    Bard,

  246. About the Vale forces: I think they will flee before the actual battle goes down. I expect them to be Stannis’d (i.e. bad weather, men deserting, etc) in the first half of the season, with the major difference that LF and his generals will actually manage to kill Ramsay when he pulls a ‘Ser Twenty’ on them. LF will then flee south in E9 when the big battle erupts, knowing that his army has been weakened too much. He will then take KL in the first half of season 6 and will become king of the ashes. 🙂

  247. I find episode 9 late for a battle with the Boltons. I had expected a wight/white walker attack now the Watch has killed 2 Lord Commanders. Or that the wall would come down while Jon is ‘dead’.

  248. mau,

    Agreed. I wonder who this new confirmed Lord Karstark will interact with. Only the Boltons? Maybe that’s what the Boltons will do in their small portion of the season; assure their alliance with the Karstarks.

  249. KimberBenton:
    I fear, we will not see the dragons on set this year… because they are usually not on set But Kit being there in a battle-scene is a huge and very welcomed spoiler

    Well, the trailers are really, really large. Also, large pens of goats near by.

  250. Wimsey,

    In the show they’re like 50 guys. Does it really matter, in terms of sheer numbers, where they are? As for the characters themselves, I hope the nationalist idiots are deader than dead, and Edd rides into battle with Jon.

  251. no one,

    You say that as if twists —and “unexpectedness” in general— were the high of artistic integrity. Twists are often cheap; something being expected does not make it bad writing. Stannis’s death, in my opinion, was incredibly poetic and beautifully done.

  252. If Jon Snow is leading an army of Wildlings, this could mean that he was saved by the Wildlings, and NOT Melisandre.
    This could also mean that the Nights Watch as an organisation has come to an end, overrun by Thormund and co., after the attack on Jon Snow.

  253. Luka Nieto,

    Remember that McShane will interact with the outlaws that’ve been cast, so his character must be in the Riverlands. Therefore, he cannot be Howland Reed.

  254. no one,

    You’re angry. But I don’t judge you, I was also angry when I first read ASOS, and Rob died. In time it will pass tough and you will realize this is just fiction,…hopefully.

  255. SciFiFantasyGirl:

    I know I know, hold on to your tin foil hats everyone.But it’s likely something proving Jon’s Targaryen heritage is hidden in Lyanna’s tomb itself.Robert would never defile her likeness and therefore never find it.

    And what reason would anyone have to desecrate Lyannas grave? I really don’t see anything in her tomb at all. Ned knew who Jons parents were and had intended to tell Jon in time, rather than hide proof in his beloved sisters grave that nobody would even think of looking for. That makes absolutely zero sense.

    GRRM has said that Jon will learn of his heritage but it doesn’t mean the rest of Westeros will. He could find out through Bran, from a vision by Mel or even when he’s passed over to the other side.

  256. When we speak about the Vale and LF I think that I have an idea that makes more sense than anything I heard here.

    The show won’t make 2 or 3 battles in the North. See what they’ve done with Battle for the Wall and Stannis vs Boltons. They combined everything into one event.

    I’m sure that Roose will be killed by Ramsay in the first half of the season. It makes sense, it was set up, and it is perfect death for Roose and his wife, just like death of Tywin by Tyrion was perfect way to kill that character.

    But, it won’t be known who killed them (they can die outside of WF in a hunt or whatever, and Ramsay can claim that they were killed by Stannis’s loyalist that remained in the woods or whatever).

    After that Ramsay will be lord of WF and he is not very capable in politics, we saw that many times. It will be easy for LF to manipulate Ramsay and to tell him that their alliance still stand (LF can even blame Sansa for escape, he can tell that she was irresponsible towards her duties to her husband..), and that the Vale army will help the Boltons against Stark loyalists.

    Then Ramsay will let LF inside the WF, and we know from TWOW that LF was seen on the set of WF.

    During the battle against Starks, LF will betray Ramsay and stab him in the back (not literally).

    S6 will end with the Starks and the Vale in WF. That will be a good set up for S7, where I think, we will see some kind of political battle between Sansa and LF over the North.

  257. Robb Snow:
    Darquemode,

    I doubt Dawn is Lightbringer, or really much of anything except a really nice sword and an heirloom of House Dayne.

    I think Longclaw = Lightbringer. Or it might become Lightbringer later after Jon makes some kind of great sacrifice with it, perhaps by killing a loved one per the Azor Ahai prophecy (although I don’t really take the Azor Ahai, or ASoIaF prophecies in general to be 100% literal).

    I don’t believe Lightbringer is a “sword” as such- it’s a metaphor. The dragons are Lightbringer, given Dany’s sacrifices

  258. Dark Sister,

    I was wondering if it was , but could not be certain. The same actor is in the previous photo as well. A little better shot of his face in that photo. Still just blurry enough that I cannot tell for sure. Sleepy eyes just do not focus well! XD

    I would not be surprised if it was him though!!!

  259. I don’t know, in the books the Boltons are probably done for in the following Battle of Ice… maybe this battle in the show brings the story back after their decision to kill Stannis so early.

  260. vlad,

    Stannis, won’t survive the battle, not if there are 2 battles, as the show will do.
    If there is 1 battle, Jon getting there to fight the Boltons, with the wildlings, then maybe Stannis lives longer.

    Anyway him actoully wining the battle, and taking Winterfell, seams very, very unlikly too me.

  261. Richard E. Grant is Izembaro after all! Cool.

    mau,

    That is actually a pretty cool theory. I think that may be exactly how it pans out.

  262. vlad:
    I don’t know, in the books the Boltons are probably done for in the following Battle of Ice… maybe this battle in the show brings the story back after their decision to kill Stannis so early.

    It makes no sense for Stannis to defeat the Boltons.

    Starks must be part of that “The North remembers” plot, not Stannis.

  263. Luka Nieto:
    Richard E. Grant is Izembaro after all! Cool.

    mau,

    That is actually a pretty cool theory. I think that may be exactly how it pans out.

    Perhaps he’s also playing Varys?

  264. vlad,

    Isn’t that wishful thinking? The show showed us what would happen. Sure, in the books Stannis’s demise will probably be more elaborate and more explained (thus, more satisfying for readers and fans of the character), but it still has to happen.

  265. Dark Sister,

    The guy on the right could be Richard E Grant

    .

    Yep, that’s Mr Grant,so he the troupe manager many suspected. All I can say is D&D are going full boar on the mummers.

    BTW: Could that sighting of Kit at the battle filming be misinterpreted, could the hair actually belong to Ellie Kendrick’s Meera.

  266. Wimsey,

    There’s no living POV character who knows anything about the will, and if it’s not time for us to hear anything about it, there’s no reason to bring it up. Mormont and Glover have already been set up, and GRRM generally expects fans to remember what happened in previous books; there’s no reason to somehow contrive to mention the will in a book where it isn’t part of the plot.

    And as for “Ramsay’s word against Sansa’s”, why would Littlefinger, the person in question, believe Ramsay over Sansa (as far as Roose and Ramsay know)? And like I said, you would have to be massively skewing the text to think the way Ramsay treats Sansa is remotely in line with Westerosi social norms; it’s very clear that it isn’t.

  267. Paul,

    I doubt that Lightbringer is truly a real sword.It’s not that easy.Night’s Watch could mean this aswell. Remember one part of their oath “I’m the sword in the darkness….

  268. Sean C.:
    With what the Boltons did last season, it wouldn’t make any sense for them to let Littlefinger anywhere near them.

    But, if Roose is already dead….

  269. mau,

    Ramsey killing Roose, would actoully be preaty interesting. Ramsey being a comple fool, would probaly trust LF, if he says that he brought a army to help him. And also, this would be a fiting end for Roose too.

  270. Mihnea,

    It’s definitely been set up. I see no other reason for Walda being pregnant and the time spent with the father-son relationship and Ramsay’s bastardry in season five.

  271. mau,

    I don’t think that Roose’s death will be played off screen. It has to be visualised and it is uncertain if Roose will die first. But I agree that Roose and Ramsay are going to be in mutual animosity at some point. Their intimate scene in S5 felt unconvincing as to the intentions of Roose and its reception from Ramsay. The disappearance of Sansa will bring a tension between them for sure.
    It would be interesting to find out what the Sansa dynamics are in S6. Jon is also involved in WF and he is the big player so a Sansa vs LF situation would have happened via Jon, Melissandre and Rickon. There are too many players in WF so probably LF will have to retreat southwards and play the game with what is left there…

  272. SciFiFantasyGirl: And does anyone think Benjen will resurface when the big WW showdown happens?

    My hope will never die (dammit he’s one of the best scouts of the NW)! I want some conclusion on Benjen, at least. A “return” is maybe too much (I’d appreciate it though), but just the info on what really happened to him. Also, I still wonder about his motivation to join the watch. The Stark succession wasn’t all that secure with only Ned and newborn Robb… Anyway, Benjen is my favorite character 😀

  273. I am confused. Are they filming a theatre troupe in the show?

    Or are putting on a play for some other reason?

    I don’t quite understand what is exactly going on with the theatre troupe?

  274. dothrakian raven,

    A scene in the woods, posibilly when they look after Sansa, with only Ramsey coming back would be good. But I don’t really expect it. When you got a actor of McElhatton’s calibre, not giving him a death scene seams a waste.

  275. dothrakian raven: It would be interesting to find out what the Sansa dynamics are in S6.

    I’d want to see Sansa unite some of the North, with the help of Jon and hopefully a Rickon who she herself has made sure to reacquire, and rally them against the Boltons. That’s a very general idea; what this will turn out to be in respect to the plot, I do not know. We’ll have to wait and see I guess.

  276. mau,

    Wow. This is big, if true:

    1. Jaime Lannister will march with Tyrell soldiers to take the Great Sept by force.
    2. The High Sparrow, however, will give up without a fight.
    3. Margaery will be freed… but she has become (or is pretending to be) a faithful Sparrow.
    4. The scene does NOT take place during the end of the season. In fact, considering we know now that Jaime will go to the Riverlands, this is probably early season six stuff, and the kind of thing that probably has a parallel in the books but is different enough (e.g. Jaime surely will not be involved in the books.)

  277. Mihnea: Ramsey being a comple fool

    Accch … as much as I hate to say anything remotely positive about Ramsay, I don’t think he’s totally a fool. A vicious, nasty waste of time, yes, but he has some talent at warfare. He had enough ability to correctly assess the situation with the oncoming Bolton army, pick his 20 good men and get the job done successfully.

    So, anything to do with sneaking around and damaging something, his mind is working. Whether he is politically astute, in situations where large degrees of open physical violence would be frowned upon, is another story. Obviously, especially given his glee at publicly tormenting Theon, he has neither the talent or patience for diplomacy.

  278. Double ACCCH – it’s neither/nor. Where is that edit button?
    (I know there are other grammar freaks out there who will know exactly what I’m talking about, and understand.)

    mods? please?

  279. Luka Nieto,

    BTW, I know most people won’t notice, but in a way I’m disappointed that those stairs will be the stairs to the Great Sept, because they look nothing like what they used repeatedly allthroughout season five. I dare say they’d became iconic by the time a naked Cersei walked down them. On the other hand, these stairs are much grander in scale, so they will look even more impressive. Oh who cares, but a few of us obsessives…

  280. Hodor’s Bastard: ot even a discussion about the HH events/ramifications? Ugh. Let ’em burn.

    Any discussion would have been among them: and as none of them are major characters, we would not see it. Moreover, their discussion would have been mostly the lot of them talking themselves into believing that Hardhome was a fiction: Jon and the Wildlings invented the story as part of Jon’s treason, and the “loyalists” were playing along with that.

  281. Luka Nieto: In the show they’re like 50 guys. Does it really matter, in terms of sheer numbers, where they are?

    Not for the 50 men, no. However, without even a skeleton crew at the Wall, will the Walkers break free?

  282. Luka Nieto,

    I don’t understand why HS doesn’t want to realise Margaery like in the books. She is not a greater sinner than Cersei after all. Why this “performance” is needed?

    Except to show how Jaime is transforming in some sort of Lannister’s leader.

  283. Didn’t they start filming on those stairs today? Makes sense that Los Siete Reinos was able to break the story. I for one believe them wholeheartedly. They have been more than reliable in the past.

  284. tyjon,

    lol Meera’s in the cave beyond the wall. Why would she suddenly show up anywhere near Winterfell? Why would she even be in the battle in the first place? I doubt anyone would mistake a girl for Kit just because of curly hair. Kit’s back in Belfast and hanging out with Iwan. Right when a battle scene is to be filmed? Coincidence? Don’t think so.

  285. Luka Nieto,

    Maybe they will use CGI. Hopefully!

    But Sept of Baelor is the place that has no continuity in the show. Every season it looks different. In S1, S3 and S5, and now they will change it in S6.

    sigh…

  286. Off topic… but i wanna bounce this idea off you guys…

    When we last saw Littlefinger he was promising Olenna a boy. What if the boy is Robin Arryn? Littlefinger tells Cersci he’s gathering the forces of the Vale to march north to Winterfell, but what if he marches south instead? He could even convince Cersei he’s coming to aid Kings landing against the approaching Tyrell armies, but instead we could see the sack of kings landing pt 2…. Once they’ve eliminated the Lannisters, Robin could marry Margaery and Littlefinger would rule as hand.

  287. Thronetender: A vicious, nasty waste of time, yes, but he has some talent at warfare. He had enough ability to correctly assess the situation with the oncoming Bolton army, pick his 20 good men and get the job done successfully.

    I agree that Ramsay is not stupid, but he can be a fool because of his extreme rage and sadism. The difference between intelligence and wisdom should not be forgotten!

    As for his tactical skills, yes, we have seen that Ramsay is very good at guerrilla warfare tactics. However, that does not mean that he will be good at open warfare tactics. (It does not mean that he will not be, either: just that he is unproven.)

  288. mau,

    You are ringt. I read your comment in haste. But I think that Roose is a more valuable player to spare than Ramsay. A Roose-LF game of thrones would give a more intetesting perpective in the show…

  289. I’m obsessed with continuity, and I didn’t care about minor things, but every year we see something different for the stairs to the Great Sept. It became ridiculous.

  290. Ser Oromis Locke,

    1. Jaime Lannister will march with Tyrell soldiers to take the Great Sept by force.
    2. The High Sparrow, however, will give up without a fight.
    3. Margaery will be freed… but she has become (or is pretending to be) a faithful Sparrow.
    4. The scene does NOT take place during the end of the season. In fact, considering we know now that Jaime will go to the Riverlands, this is probably early season six stuff, and the kind of thing that probably has a parallel in the books but is different enough (e.g. Jaime surely will not be involved in the books.)

  291. Well, maybe Jaime will go for Margaery because in the show she won’t have a trial and that will be the end? That will be the reason for this huge scene?

    Only Cersei will have a trial?

  292. Akash Singh,

    wow, really? I didn’t know that. I thought HBO simply had not nominated it. Which stupid-ass committee did not realize that it was by far the best of the three submitted episodes, especially in terms of narrative and visual coherence. This was the roundest episode of the season, and that’s to a large degree thanks to the direction. I don’t get it.
    Or maybe they didn’t want the award to go to GoT and they couldn’t not nominate it, so they chose not to nominate the strongest contender?

  293. Gravemaster,

    Have Isaac and Kristian been sighted in Belfast or wherever they’ve filmed the cave scenes in s4? Perhaps, she managed to slip by unnoticed for the read-through (she’s not exactly high-profile) and the cave scenes have yet to be shot, like later in the fall.

  294. ThroneDrone:
    Off topic… but i wanna bounce this idea off you guys…

    When we last saw Littlefinger he was promising Olenna a boy. What if the boy is Robin Arryn? Littlefinger tells Cersci he’s gathering the forces of the Vale to march north to Winterfell, but what if he marches south instead? He could even convince Cersei he’s coming to aid Kings landing against the approaching Tyrell armies, but instead we could see the sack of kings landing pt 2…. Once they’ve eliminated the Lannisters, Robin could marry Margaery and Littlefinger would rule as hand.

    The “handsome young man” was Lancel

  295. mau,

    And when they can’t even keep CGI continuity it’s even worse. The immense black Baelor statue before the Sept, which can be seen in faraway shots of the Sept itself (even in Season 5!), should be seen from most angles when they shot in those stairs and added the CGI Sept behind it, but it isn’t.

    But… that’s nitpicky, I know. We should be happy we now have these stairs, which are much grander.

  296. SciFiFantasyGirl: Yes!Who was there with Howland Reed?

    So many questions and never a guarantee of answers!

    Wylla

    There’s no reason why a random wet nurse for House Dayne would take part in the cover up of who Jon’s parents were, going as far as to claim she was the mother.

    So she was likely already at the tower and loyal to House Targaryen/Prince Rhaegar. She agrees to hide Jon’s parentage so that he isn’t killed by Robert.

    She travels with Ned and baby Jon to Starfall and then (for some reason) stays on there as a Wetnurse.

  297. Luka Nieto:
    Luka Nieto,

    BTW, I know most people won’t notice, but in a way I’m disappointed that those stairs will be the stairs to the Great Sept, because they look nothing like what they used repeatedly allthroughout season five. I dare say they’d became iconic by the time a naked Cersei walked down them. On the other hand, these stairs are much grander in scale, so they will look even more impressive. Oh who cares, but a few of us obsessives…

    The steps look really similar IMO although are somewhat grander I do agree. I doubt anyone will notice and even if they do, the great Sept has 7 sides- so it’s safe to assume there’s more than one entrance.

  298. ThroneDrone:
    Apollo,

    “handsome young man” — yes! Thank you… But what makes you think he was referring to Lancel?

    Because it was an offering to Olenna to compensate for the young man he had provided to Cersei that led to Maergery/Loras’ imprisonment. And this in turn led to Cerseis capture. I’m under no illusions that the HS wasn’t already aware of Cersei’s crimes (from Lancels confessions) and was going to act at some point, but I’m guessing the Olenna forced his hand by revealing what she she found out from LF.

  299. Regarding the news about Jon, one other thing that can be inferred from this is that his resurrection will have to have occurred fairly early in the year. That was a subject of debate, since it seemed at least plausible that his return might take some time or have intermediate stages, depending on how it comes about.

    But if he’s going to be in battle with the Boltons in episode 9, in the preceding episodes he has to be resurrected, deal with whatever the situation on the Wall is, deal emotionally with the fact that he, y’know, died and came back to life, decide (for whatever reason) to go south to fight, and convince the Wildlings to come with him, etc. That’s a fair bit of ground to cover.

    Of course, as a precursor to all that, Mel (probably) has to decide to resurrect Jon, which at present she has no motive to do. She’ll have to acquire one in short order, but that will require a bit of buildup.

  300. Luka Nieto,

    That means that Sansa and will head to the Wall somehow after her escape. But how? Will Brienne find her and help her? IF that is the case that means a lot of commotion at The Wall in the först half of The season…

  301. mau:
    Ser Oromis Locke,

    1. Jaime Lannister will march with Tyrell soldiers to take the Great Sept by force.
    2. The High Sparrow, however, will give up without a fight.
    3. Margaery will be freed… but she has become (or is pretending to be) a faithful Sparrow.
    4. The scene does NOT take place during the end of the season. In fact, considering we know now that Jaime will go to the Riverlands, this is probably early season six stuff, and the kind of thing that probably has a parallel in the books but is different enough (e.g. Jaime surely will not be involved in the books.)

    1. Jaime will save Margaery for Tommen I’d reckon, knowing full well what Cersei’s intent was. Causing the inbook-break they have?

    2. High Sparrow gives up without a fight only implies to me that he’s about to counter with the “we’re the few”-line towards the masses. “How dare they even propose to assault our holy sept?! Causing a new riot in the Streets of KL, mostly towards the Lannisters of course.

    3. Margaery knowing this is probably faking being holy at this point in order to not get ko’d in the riots.

    4. I can definitely see this being early in the season. Either Jaime is on the run in the Riverlands, or the notion that he’ll take the Black after the White could come back on the table, which would send him through the Riverlands up North, towards Brienne.

  302. If any of that is true with Jaime and even if he heads to riverlands.. I wonder where trystane fits in all of this

  303. Ser Oromis Locke,

    Yes. Here is what they say:

    Jaime is the rider. He comes to stop the High Sparrow with Tyrell troops. The High Sparrow easily surrender because he has reached his goal: Margery is converted to the faith of 7 and became devout.

    The article mentions they do not know if this is a strategy of Margery or if she has really become religious…

  304. mau,

    I don’t think Jaime has to be on the run after this at all. Jaime “saves” the Queen, who is now devout. The Sparrows hand her over to Jaime and the Tyrell forces. Why would there be a riot or charges against Jaime for this? It seems to me that after this grand heroic gesture by Jaime to save Cersei’s mortal (other) mortal enemy, we have the JC relationship in shreds and then Jaime can be sent North by Tommen or by Kevan.

  305. Laurence:
    Ser Oromis Locke,
    Yes. Here is what they say:

    Jaime is the rider. He comes to stop the High Sparrow with Tyrell troops. The High Sparrow easily surrender because he has reached his goal: Margery is converted to the faith of 7 and became devout.

    The article mentions they do not know if this is a strategy of Margery or if she has really become religious…

    But.. Margaery and the Tyrell’s already follow the Seven. So the only way I can see this is if Margaery apparently becomes the female equivalent of Lancel. Which is kinda hard to take, since she’s married and is the Queen. Will she be renouncing all claims to he throne all of a sudden, willingly??? When the entire Tyrell-plot was to get her where she was? Why would the High Sparrow counter that specifically? If this is what the High Sparrow was after, than it can only mean that he wanted to create a rift between the Lannisters and the Tyrells. Who would benefit from a destabilized KL that the High Sparrow would deem fit to rule?

    Now, I’m interested in what this means for Loras, where will he go? Will Tommen resent his mother for all of this? He’s basically losing his wife if I understand the implications correctly, a wife he “thoroughly enjoyed”.. I mean the kid is already depressed as of S5.. And how does this fit in the timeline with Mace returning to KL and having beef with Olenna???

  306. dothrakian raven,

    Thing is, Ramsay is clearly established as the main villain in the Boltob story. Ever since the two Bolton threads merged two seasons ago, Roose has very much been a supporting character. I think he’s had one scene in the last two seasons where Ramsay wasn’t present, whereas Ramsay has had numerous scenes without Roose. Narratively, with all the emphasis on Ramsay and his depredations, and his obvious parallels with Jon, it makes no sense to suddenly star prioritizing Roose over him.

  307. Laurence:
    Ser Oromis Locke,

    Yes. Here is what they say:

    Jaime is the rider. He comes to stop the High Sparrow with Tyrell troops. The High Sparrow easily surrender because he has reached his goal: Margery is converted to the faith of 7 and became devout.

    The article mentions they do not know if this is a strategy of Margery or if she has really become religious…

    Maergery being converted does concern me if its true. On the one hand, I can see Olenna snapping her out of that in no time. On the other hand, Maergery knows who was behind Joffreys murder…

  308. Philemon the Jamaicon,

    For what? He doesn’t know anything about what happened to Shireen, and I expect the writers set it up that way to justify Mek being kept around long-term despite the changes they made to the plot. Mel still hasn’t met Arya again, and doesn’t seem likely to this season.

  309. HotPinkLipstick:
    mau,
    I don’t think Jaime has to be on the run after this at all. Jaime “saves” the Queen, who is now devout. The Sparrows hand her over to Jaime and the Tyrell forces. Why would there be a riot or charges against Jaime for this? It seems to me that after this grand heroic gesture by Jaime to save Cersei’s mortal (other) mortal enemy, we have the JC relationship in shreds and then Jaime can be sent North by Tommen or by Kevan.

    It’s the most likely scenario that it’s Tommen who sends Jaime to get Margaery forcibly. No matter whether the High Sparrow backs down or “surrenders” Margaery over to Jaime without an actual fight, he was still pressured by the show of force, soldiers with swords drawn on the steps, etc. The High Sparrow will use this as fuel that “the few” will use force even against the sanctum of the church, which represents “the many” to get whatever they want. The High Sparrow can use this to ignite a riot against the few. It’s what he already threatened Olenna with last season, I’m not making this up as I go. So with the citizens of KL turned into an angry mob, it will get quite heated for anybody named Lannister (and Tyrell?) in the city. I expect Jaime to leave as Cersei surely won’t be appreciative. And talking about the city being heated.. Cersei: “I’ll burn cities to the ground”..

    And as a bonus, he also managed to turn Margaery devout (pretty much forced or faked) and if this is another Lancel-scenario, it means she forsakes her claims, lands and marriage? Causing the Lannister/Tyrell-alliance to break. But what if she’s pregnant? Than her child will be heir to the throne if Tommen dies, no other Baratheon’s left you see. Possibilities, possibilities! xD

  310. mau,

    I don’t think Ramsay will kill Roose. Were Sansa still at Winterfell, pushing Ramsay’s buttons and undermining their relationship then, maybe. But it wouldn’t make much sense now.

    Ramsay could easily kill Walda, or the new heir, at any point before he’s born and comes of age. To kill Roose and Walda out of the blue wouldn’t make sense right now, in my opinion. Plus, I’d hate to see the pantomime villain Ramsay kill McElhatton’s awesomely sinister Roose.

    I think what may happen is that Roose will send Ramsay away from Winterfell, perhaps to hunt down Sansa and/or Theon. As a result Ramsay will either miss the Battle for Winterfell and survive or, alternatively, be killed during the hunt, (e.g. by Brienne).

    With Stannis defeated Roose has no immediate need for Ramsay at Winterfell. And he’ll know that if Sansa finds her way to one of the other Northern Houses then he’ll have a major problem on his hands. Recapturing her will surely be a priority and, what with Ramsay being a vindictive kinda guy, he’ll probably want to hunt down his wife and his Reek himself, especially after they killed his favourite toy, Myranda.

    Also, with Stannis defeated and with a long winter on the horizon (limiting the likelihood of rebellion), Roose may figure that if he sends Ramsay after Sansa, and he somehow ends up dead, that wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. His bastard heir would be out of the picture and by the time the winter is over his legitimate son would be much closer to maturity and he may even have fathered more heirs.

    I get the feeling Roose figures Ramsay is entirely expendable. He legitimized him to keep him onside, but will now gladly send him into battle knowing that if he dies it won’t matter.

    Your theory about Littlefinger betraying the Boltons could still play out with Roose in charge instead of Ramsay. Perhaps Roose could even rumble Littlefinger’s betrayal meaning Littlefinger finds himself in mortal danger for once, instead of always being able to pull the strings from behind the scenes and away from danger.

    I think if Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale are to play any part in the Battle for Winterfell then you’re right that they would initially have to be supporting the Boltons, otherwise there is simply no way they could get to Winterfell.

    Moat Cailin is still, presumably, under Bolton control and there’s no way they’d be allowed to sail up the White Knife or disembark in the East and march through Bolton land without the Boltons’ permission.

  311. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    How would the Boltons stop them if they didn’t have permission? The Bolton army is hundreds of miles away from prospective landing zones; unless they knew Littlefinger’s army was coming (and if they did, it wouldn’t make sense for them not to immediately tell the Lannisters that Littlefinger betrayed them [the Lannisters]).

  312. Gravemaster,

    That means nothing, considering Jonathan Pryce, NCW and Natalie Dormer have been filming in a public space today in Girona today and they haven’t been spotted in Spain at all.

  313. Sean C.,

    Sean C.:
    Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
    (and if they did, it wouldn’t make sense for them not to immediately tell the Lannisters that Littlefinger betrayed them [the Lannisters]).

    Well LF is invading the North with the crowns blessing. Cersei permited, so even if the Boltons inform the crown about LF invading, they wont do anything, as he invades the North with their permission

  314. Mihnea,

    No, I mean, if the Boltons learn that Littlefinger is invading the North and claiming to be doing so on behalf of the Crown, their first response should be to expose his duplicity, which wouldn’t make the Crown more favourable to the Boltons, but would cause problems for Baelish, both with the Crown and with the Vale troops he’s using.

  315. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Be creative. Think what makes sense for the story. Who will kill Roose? Jon, Sansa? Only death by Ramsay can create that sort “GoT feeling” to it.

    Roose has a new son on his way, Ramsay lost Sansa and he is totally useless for Roose. He can threat to delegitimize him or whatever.

    Sensa’s escape can easily create a situation where there is great conflict between Roose and Ramsay.

  316. Sean C.,

    Which I guess makes it even more likely that Littlefinger’s army would enter the North under the pretence that they were on the Boltons’ side. As you point out, the Boltons have too much dirt on Littlefinger for him to make an explicit invasion without consequences.

    And, unless Littlefinger specifically allied with some Northern rebels to oust the Boltons, or instigated the whole rebellion, then Roose Bolton would surely be able to use a southern army invading the North as a means to rally other Northern Houses to his side.

    Either way, I think it makes more sense that Littlefinger will have the Boltons permission to enter the North as part of their alliance, rather than him simply marching into the North unannounced and hoping that the other Houses don’t join the Boltons to oppose them.

  317. Viewers are generally sick of Ramsay. He does not have the same entertainment factor as Joffrey did, because Joff always conveyed a sense of being out of his depth which made his grandiose arrogance and cruelty often have a darkly comic undercurrent. With Ramsay, he’s just boring and the interpretation lacks nuance or fascination. Maybe if he’d been portrayed more as a depressed and ’emo’ psychopath, instead of an upbeat cartoon villain, it would have resonated more with the audience.

  318. mau,

    I’m not saying that Ramsay killing Roose won’t happen, or that it wouldn’t make for an interesting turn of events. But I think sending the two Boltons off in different directions to meet separate fates has a pretty “GoT feeling” as well, mirroring the way the Starks all went off in different directions to befall different fates.

    I personally think that, while Ramsay betraying Roose may be poetic justice, it’d be more interesting if Roose was defeated in an honourable fashion; demonstrating that dirty tricks are not always necessary to win the day. Having him humbled (or defiant) in front of those who he betrayed, or even dying on the battlefield at the hands of Jon, would make for good scenes in my opinion.

    Meanwhile, Ramsay could go off and meet some other, hopefully painful and humiliating, fate in his search for Sansa/Theon (e.g. by Brienne, Davos, Theon himself, Sansa herself, Yara…), or even live to fight another season and reappear at an opportune moment to exact some terrible crime or betrayal.

  319. Beacon,

    I thought he was brilliant in Season 3 when he was torturing Theon. The fact that he was a sadistic maniac who delighted in causing people misery was totally appropriate during those scenes.

    But I think his pantomime “sinister” demeanour during much of season 4 and 5, and particularly the way he speaks to Reek, has begun to grate. The shaving scene with Reek in season 4 and the dinner and wedding night scenes in season 5 were the only times his character has really appeared entertainingly villainous in the last two seasons.

    Whereas seemingly every scene featuring Roose is simply overflowing with an understated and effortless villainy.

  320. mau: It became ridiculous.

    Heh, I never notice that sort of thing even when I do my annual binge-watch. Well, between church decadence and the need to keep the large population of Kings Landing employed, perhaps they redecorate frequently!

    Sean C.: heir first response should be to expose his duplicity, which wouldn’t make the Crown more favourable to the Boltons, but would cause problems for Baelish, both with the Crown and with the Vale troops he’s using.

    Why would the Crown believe them? That is exactly the sort of thing that you would expect them to invent, after all. At any rate, the Lannisters would be predisposed to take LF’s accounting of events over the Boltons: LF might be a bit weasley, but he is a southerner, and he has rendered great services to the Lannisters before. The Boltons are bandwagon allies and northerners. Moreover, they already have gotten LF’s story: why would he have told them any of that if he were doing what the Bolton’s claim he is doing?

    Of course, chances are very good that things will be so chaotic in Kings Landing by then that a Bolton vs. Baelish propaganda war would fall on deaf ears. And as the winner is the one who’s story will matter, well, all that matters is that LF not lose!

    mau: Be creative. Think what makes sense for the story. Who will kill Roose?

    Van Helsing, of course…

    😉

  321. I think I figured out whey they had to cast Greatjon Umber instead of Smalljon Umber! Remember, when King Robb thought Bran and Rickon were dead, he declared Jon Snow as his heir and made his lords sign it. All the lords who signed however perished, except Lord Bolton and GREATJON UMBER! BOOM!

  322. Marius,

    That did not happened in the show.

    Altough my guess is mostly Greatjon’s actor, appereance, seriously check some pics with him recently. He lost a lot of weight. Some health problems if I remenber right.

  323. Wow, 500 comments! And I thought nothing will beat the Euron casting news anytime soon… 😛

    Edit: Edit button is back?! Seems like “500 comments” was the achievement to unlock the edit button again 🙂

  324. Beacon:
    Viewers are generally sick of Ramsay. He does not have the same entertainment factor as Joffrey did, because Joff always conveyed a sense of being out of his depth which made his grandiose arrogance and cruelty often have a darkly comic undercurrent. With Ramsay, he’s just boring and the interpretation lacks nuance or fascination. Maybe if he’d been portrayed more as a depressed and ’emo’ psychopath, instead of an upbeat cartoon villain, it would have resonated more with the audience.

    Maybe some viewers, as could be said for a lot of characters. Not this one. 🙂

  325. Jon,

    The troupe is an excuse to have a GoT satire within GoT itself, while laying the groundwork for who the hell knows. We know they are in WoW, but not GRRM’s reasoning behind their creation. Looks to be quite entertaining though with the talent lined up. What I’ve found enlightening is the actress portraying troupe Cersei is more how I imagined book Cersei to look.

  326. tyjon,

    She has more of the evil beautiful queen look, doesn’t she? Perfect for a satire. I’m sure these theatrical performances will be so fun to watch!

  327. rosaadriana,
    Davos explained it to Jon when he was trying to convince him to fight with Stannis….without a strong, united North, the rest of Westeros is a sitting duck. When Jon comes back, he will finally heed Davos warning and try to clean up the North and that means getting rid of the self-serving and divisive Boltons. Not to mention revenge for what they’ve done to the Starks. Without any ties to the NW, he is much more likely to seek that revenge (which he’s wanted since he found out about Robb’s death.

  328. Undead Ice Kraken,

    Edit: Edit button is back?! Seems like “500 comments” was the achievement to unlock the edit button again 🙂

    LOL, no more like a ton of hair pulling and gnashing of teeth by Oz and me

  329. Wimsey,

    Well, for starters, the Boltons would have all of their correspondence with Littlefinger preserved, where he offers then Sansa in exchange for an alliance. Pretty good evidence, and certainly enough to train the spotlight on Baelish, which is what he doesn’t want, seeing as he was pretty open about riding around the Riverlands with Sansa.

    As to why, that should be pretty obvious: to manipulate the Lannisters into letting him invade the North.

  330. I’m calling it now, Azor Ahai is reborn. Longclaw becomes Lightbringer and ignites in flames. Jon travels south (either with a wildling army like he intended in response to the pink letter) or with white walkers. He’ll lay waste to those that have wronged his family, First the Boltons, then he’ll attack the Twins.

    I’m thinking of the Norse mythology parallels. Surtr (Jon) will travel from the Bifrost Bridge (Wall) after it falls down, and go on to slay Freyr (likely Walder Frey) with his burning blade.

  331. Does anyone have any idea how they are going to explain the Northern lords not wanting to join Stannis during season 5? I mean Stannis didn’t even attempt to garner any Northern support on the show (with the exception of trying to recruit Jon, and sending a few letters, but he kinda gave up after that). Will it make sense all of a sudden if they suddenly want to deal with the Boltons after the Battle of Ice? I suppose they’d be weakened after Stannis gave them battle, but the other northerners aren’t that cowardly to swoop in after the battle are they? Or maybe the fact that show Stannis never freed their strongholds and personally went to their doors, that’s why they didn’t join him? The show has told us no one but Lyanna Mormont responded to Stannis’ letters, so I guess the other northerners just couldn’t be arsed fighting after the red wedding?

  332. Sean C.: Mel (probably) has to decide to resurrect Jon, which at present she has no motive to do. She’ll have to acquire one in short order, but that will require a bit of buildup.

    I suppose Davos could inspire some incentive, either calmly verbal, emotional, or squeezing throat variety, or some combination thereof. That would do the trick.

    But I think she would have her personal reasons to follow up on her inquiries into Jon and get him back to life. Those many looks through fire directly at him, her “touch me, I’m warm,” antics, her questions “are you a virgin, Jon Snow? …good.” She’s interested for her own purposes, plus her own pride in just seeing if she could do it, and passion for finding Azor Ahai. . Plus her personal disgust that Stannis wasn’t what she thought. She’ll do it

    As someone said, far better her trying, than carting the rotting corpse around. Jon’s image is just too cool to stay frozen for long, if that makes sense. We couldn’t bear it for any amount of time.

  333. Hype Man Baelish,

    Stannis is a southerner
    Stannis worships a foreign god
    Stannis burns false gods

    And the most important point. Unlike the books, I highly suspect the northeners know about Rickon, as he is with the Umbers not on Skagos. That is their king, not Stannis. So why not let Stannis and the Boltons bloody one another, and then take winterfell for Rickon. Also Bolton had the real Sansa.

    Them fighting for Stannis would mean abandoning Rickon as king.

    The northeners also don’t view Stannis as their king, their king was Robb Stark, Now with Bran gone forever beyond the Wall, Rickon is king.

    No northener would figt for a southerner, especially when they know of Rickon, who in their eyes is the rightfull king, of a free and independent North.

    All this is possible, because the Northeners know about Rickon. It makes sense joining Stannis when they tought Bran/Rickon where dead. Remenber even in ADWD they outright tell Stennis they don’t fight for him but for Ned’s duaghter. Now imagine what they would do if they had Ned’s son and Robb’s hair.

  334. rosaadriana:
    Morgoth,
    Why would Jon, if alive, waste his time with Boltons when there are white walkers around?

    Has it been stated that this battle is at Winterfell?

    The Boltons may have decided to attack Jon at the Wall.

    Jon is now commander of the Newly reforged Night’s Watch (aka Lightbringer) made up of Wildlings and Men of the North.

    Ramsay/Roose not happy with a Stark (snow/Targ) in charge of such a large army decide to attack the Wall.

    Yes Mel had a vision of herself walking the walls of Winterfell but that could still happen after the battle (possibly after the Wall falls and the NW regroup there).

  335. Thronetender,

    Mell clearly saw something in her flames, and she clearly saw something in Jon.
    Another look in the flames where the lord of light shows her Jon, is enough motivation.

  336. Hype Man Baelish,

    I was just under the impression they just didn’t like Stannis and don’t want him as king because of the GNC theory and he’s Southern and worships a different god. Pretty sure they wouldn’t like him trying to make them discard the old gods or burn the remaining weirwood trees. As for the show… Maybe the Northern Lords already had a plan to squash the Boltons and just didnt want to be involved with Stannis because they dont want him as King, and the reasons I mentioned earlier, so they didn’t bother RSVPing, haha.

    Like your Jon Norse parallel BTW. But I’m not sure Lightbringer is really a sword.

  337. Dame Pasty: LOL, no more like a ton of hair pulling and gnashing of teeth by Oz and me

    Kudos, thanks, and flowery salutations, Dame and Oz. I’ve already made use of it.

    Thanks to all of you who work so hard to keep this site functioning and fun for the rest of us. I’m more impressed every day, and glad that WotW exists. Thank you, Sue.

  338. Coleman: The Boltons may have decided to attack Jon at the Wall.

    Given that Ramsay told Sansa about Jon, that would be a very sensible place to try and find her. Again, this could be the Salmon Missive…..

    On this rosy note, is there anybody here who was pushing the idea that the Pink Letter is a forgery a year ago? I am curious as to what those people now think. (I remember it being a hot topic, but I do not remember who took which views.)

  339. Hype Man Baelish,

    A lot of this taken from the books or could just be speculation on my part, but this is how I see it.

    The fact that he sent a letter to Bear Island at all tells me he probably sent other letters to Northern houses. I suspect they replied similarly, if they bothered replying at all. It’s why Stannis offered to legitimize Jon, so the Northern lords might be more inclined to join him. And since Jon (wisely) turned down his offer, Stannis gave up on that and decided to go it alone with his men from Dragonstone and sellswords.

    There are also some interesting things that can be deduced from Lyanna’s letter. The fact that she responded with “Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North” implies that Stannis asked them to declare him to be their king (which is what his book counterpart did). It can also be interpreted to mean that Bear Island knows Rickon Stark is alive and that he alone is their king, and could be why Lyanna replied with such boldness.

    Not to mention the whole King in the North concept goes right out the window if they help Stannis take Winterfell. Remember that he named Robb Stark as a usurper during the leech ritual in Season 3, and may even have a hand in Robb’s demise if the ritual really had an effect. The North belongs to him and him alone in his mind, and the Northern houses obviously feel quite different. So they will not declare for him (and I doubt they really will in the books either).

    And of course, like you said yourself, it could be that they plan to let Stannis and Roose tear each other apart in battle, then make their move. I don’t think it’s cowardly at all either – it’s a sound military tactic, especially if you’re not in a position to face a full sized army yourself.

  340. Jaemi:
    Jon & Ramsey Snowdown

    May Jon/AA skewer Ramsay with Longclaw/Lightbringer like a kabob, lift him up by the sword hilt and feed him to Ghost.

  341. If Lightbringer is a sword it could well be Ice put back together – the swords that were made from Ice reforged back together.

  342. Mihnea:
    Jon kills Ramsey, I bet my right kidney on it.

    Ramsay gathers twenty one good men and kills Jon Snow. It’s GOT. The bad guys always win because it’s shocking or something.

  343. Hodor’s Bastard: May Jon/AA skewer Ramsay with Longclaw/Lightbringer like a kabob, lift him up by the sword hilt and feed him to Ghost.

    I’ve always thought that Theon should kill him. Of course, I also have thought that Ramsay attacking the Wall and letting the White Walkers through, and then dying because of that would be a fitting death, too.

  344. Wimsey: I’ve always thought that Theon should kill him.

    There are many acceptable options for Ramsay’s demise. I hope Thoros is nearby so he can revive him after each death so the next person in line can have a go. 🙂

  345. Robb Snow: A lot of this taken from the books or could just be speculation on my part, but this is how I see it.

    The fact that he sent a letter to Bear Island at all tells me he probably sent other letters to Northern houses. I suspect they replied similarly, if they bothered replying at all. It’s why Stannis offered to legitimize Jon, so the Northern lords might be more inclined to join him. And since Jon (wisely) turned down his offer, Stannis gave up on that and decided to go it alone with his men from Dragonstone and sellswords.

    There are also some interesting things that can be deduced from Lyanna’s letter. The fact that she responded with “Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North” implies that Stannis asked them to declare him to be their king (which is what his book counterpart did). It can also be interpreted to mean that Bear Island knows Rickon Stark is alive and that he alone is their king, and could be why Lyanna replied with such boldness.

    Not to mention the whole King in the North concept goes right out the window if they help Stannis take Winterfell. Remember that he named Robb Stark as a usurper during the leech ritual in Season 3, and may even have a hand in Robb’s demise if the ritual really had an effect. The North belongs to him and him alone in his mind, and the Northern houses obviously feel quite different. So they will not declare for him (and I doubt they really will in the books either).

    And of course, like you said yourself, it could be that they plan to let Stannis and Roose tear each other apart in battle, then make their move. I don’t think it’s cowardly at all either – it’s a sound military tactic, especially if you’re not in a position to face a full sized army yourself.

    The houses in the North definitely knows Rickon and Bran are alive in the books. It would be vital for them to secure Rickon, but when it comes to leadership they might not be looking at Rickon but at Jon. Winter is coming and there is a full scale war going on in Westeros, it would be more prudent for the North to have someone like Jon in charge at this stage. He could be Rickon’s Lord Protector until he comes of age as in the books Rickon is something 4 or 5. The word about Robb’s will and Rickon being alive is doing the rounds in the North.

    Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont are send to the Neck by Robb before the Red Wedding with Robb’s will or an understanding of Robbs will. Dacey Mormont, Maege’s oldest daughter are the only one who goes with her when Robb calls the banners in AGOT. Dacey of course gets killed at the Red Wedding. Yet when Stannis asks for help from the Mormonts, Lyanna, Maege’s youngest daughter replies to his missive. Later on in ADWD we learn that Maege’s two middle daugters, Lyra and Jory are suddenly with Maege again. Not only that but Alysane has in meantime (after Lyanna’s letter to Stannis) joined up with Stannis at Deepwood Motte. This shows that Maege Mormont after reaching the Neck had met up with her daughters and they are in full communication with each other. First refusing to help Stannis and then they send Alysane to Stannis’s camp.
    When Davos is in White Harbor and facing Manderly’s court, Robett Glover, Galbart Glover younger brother is also part of Manderly’s court, there is also a Locke present in Manderly’s court.
    When Bran travels towards the North he runs into one of the Liddle’s along the way. Meanwile the Manderly’s and the Umbers have been working together closely for a long time to build ships. And just after Stannis left the Wall we suddenly see Norreys and Flints turning up at the wall, for the wedding that Jon organizes between Alys Karstark and the Thenn. Lady Dustin of course also opens the Winterfell crypts and notices that the swords are missing.
    Basically if you place and piece all of this information together you can see that all of the houses in the North have been in contact with each other and they know the Stark boys are alive, but at this stage they might be more interested in applying Robb’s will and having Jon as a regent.

    The Northern houses basically have all of their bases covered, they have men with Stannis and they send Alysane Mormont to Stannis, Manderly also usess Davos to collect Rickon. At the same time they also have their own plans against the Boltons and the Freys that does not involve Stannis.

    rosaadriana: Why would Jon, if alive, waste his time with Boltons when there are white walkers around?

    In the show the Nights Watch currently has 50 men and a few Wildlings. That simply isn’t enough to fight against the White Walkers. Jon seriously needs resources, we saw that he wrote to all of the houses asking for resources but he was simply rejected.
    The North is currently a very unstable environment, the Northern houses will not help the Nights Watch as long as the Boltons are in control of the North. Their reasoning would be that they need their own fighting men. The Boltons currently also have no interest to help the Nights Watch. Winterfell and the Starks have always been a line of defense against anything that might come from the North, with the Boltons in control that line of defense does not exist and the North will only submit to a Stark.

    How can Jon gain the resources he requires? The answer is quite simple and logical for Jon. Oust the Boltons out of Winterfell and take control of North for himself or as Rickon’s regent. If he is in control of the North then he can use all of the North’s resources to fight against the White Walkers.

  346. Wow, fantabulous news, Sue, thanks so much!
    I agree that John Bradley appears significantly slimmer in that pic. I know he doesn’t like the warmth of the NW costume, so maybe he made a concerted effort to lose weight, knowing he’d be filming in Spain this year?

    I have a question for anyone who’s read the ASOIAF books in a non-English language: Are the bastard surnames of Snow, Stone, Rivers, Flowers, Waters, Sand, Storm etc translated into their relevant meanings? Or are their English names kept?
    Thanks if anyone knows the answer.

  347. Boudica

    I wonder if it is possible for the King in the North and the Lord of Winterfell to be two different people while Rickon is young and Jon presumably reshapes the NW Wall defences.

  348. Boudica,

    I feel the same. That was a very concise and logical explanation, as I was also wondering why Jon would go south. This makes me extremely excited fot the next phase in his character development!

  349. Ashara Dayne:
    Wow, fantabulous news, Sue, thanks so much!
    I agree that John Bradley appears significantly slimmer in that pic. I know he doesn’t like the warmth of the NW costume, so maybe he made a concerted effort to lose weight, knowing he’d be filming in Spain this year?

    I have a question for anyone who’s read the ASOIAF books in a non-English language: Are the bastard surnames of Snow, Stone, Rivers, Flowers, Waters, Sand, Storm etc translated into their relevant meanings? Or are their English names kept?
    Thanks if anyone knows the answer.

    In Dutch, they translated ALL the names..

    Snow = Sneeuw
    Rivers = Stroom
    Sand = Zand
    Hill = Heuvel
    Flowers = Bloemen
    Stone = Steen
    Theon Greyjoy = Theon Grauwvreugd…
    Glover = Hanscoe…
    Every name ending with -ly = ending with -ling.

    And I’m still unsure if Edmure or Edmar is official name of Catelyn’s brother.. -.-

  350. i think jon snow would b resurected by night’s king and he too becomes a white walker which is further becomes a man by miracle by danareys(her sister)then ultimately the fighting begins for westros throne

  351. i think the battle jon snow will be involved in (assuming it is not a flashback) will definitely have white walker angle in it, after Hardhome it seemed the white walker leader almost challenged jon and they are progressing towards the wall and this white walker business must be settled (at least for the time being)immediately before he can take up anything else.

  352. Dutch Maester,

    Here is a wild theory if these reports are indeed accurate. Could Littlefinger be secretly backing Jon’s claim to the throne? Could Littlefinger actually be a “good guy” after all?

    Varys would be the one to lose most if Jon’s parentage were to be exposed. He is backing F-Aegon in the books and Dany in the show. Could the one thing that Littlefinger knows that Varys does not know be the downfall of Varys’s schemes?

    Let’s face it, those two are the primary antagonists on the show but up to this point we don’t actually know who is fighting for the right cause. I think Littlefinger would want to trump Varys’s card with his Ace up the sleeve in Jon Targaryan.

    Remember how LF snickered at Sansa’s mentioning of R+L? Jon Snow knows nothing but LF seems to know!

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