Actually, it’s not. I just wanted to piss somebody off with the title.
Ohhhhh yeah… the Watchers have allowed Oz, the Court Jester (a.k.a. the Village Idiot, the Royal Fool, the Wall Nut,) back onto your technologically enhanced screen for maximum reading pleasure. Girlfriend… this is your lucky day.
Rumor has it that we have almost (subjective) come to the end of this glorious game. For those reasons, the management has released a man to once again burden you with inferior Unsullied speculation due to the lack of relevant news, coupled with excitement accelerated by a three-second Jonsa embrace. Thanks HBO!
Regardless, theories abound! And I haven’t read a one of them. But I am quite positive that the unrealistic ones featured below the cut are considerably worse than yours. Fear not, for there is a point to the lunacy. Shall we begin? Yes, Lisa…
Disclaimer: For all of you Wall newbies, and as a reminder for the Wallbies: You have entered the realm of the Unsullied; where show fact and written fiction are separated by a man with only a television and a pricey, yet worthy, subscription to Home Box Office. My oath states that no sacred texts may be read until the conclusion of the show, and a man is nothing if he is not an oathkeeper.
As Unsullied, we must dine on what is served by buffet curators David and Dan only.
Disclaimer #2: Sue of House Fury and Luka of House Awesome do NOT allow a man to read any spoilery content produced, written and reported here at the Wall or anywhere else throughout the twines of internettery. So, if a man seems uninformed, it’s because I am.
I also don’t read theories, but I hear there are thousands (maybe more) available for clicking or download or patreonable or other. If you weren’t already aware, you will quickly find that my theories are NOT worth paying for. Before you complain, understand that at the conclusion, you will have just ingested this nonsensical content for free. All it has cost you is 15 minutes of your life you can never get back.
So here we are kiddos… standing at the precipice of hell, also known as the end of Game of Thrones.
All good things must come to an end, and in the timeless words of Brian Flanagan from Cocktail (1988), “Everything ends badly. Otherwise it wouldn’t end.” Yes, I’ve used this quote before. It’s important that you don’t forget it.
I’ll come back to that.
Realizing that every theory has probably been verbalized or written in some corner of the internet, I felt the need to give you some unlikely ones. Odds are good that your theory, in one form or another, is wrong.
That dude sitting next to you… his is probably wrong too, even if you don’t want to be the one to tell him how wrong it is.
My theories and speculations are typically as wrong as that guy, which may be the primary reason I don’t contrive them as much as in the early days of the site.
And besides that, there are a conglomerate of sharper minds than the one that resides in my warped brain that contribute to this site (see: Patrick Sponaugle, Morgoth, Akash of the Andals, JoeMagician). They are much more worthy of your time and consideration. (Patrick… call your mother).
In lieu of deep thought and examination, I thought I might give you some outlandish and highly unlikely outcomes for the final six episodes. If you are not in the mood for a mild dose of absurdity, I suggest you exit stage left now. You’ve been warned.
The Jonsa Embrace
Let’s commence with the most recent footage we have… one second of approach and two seconds of hug. Or vice versa.
There’s a lot to unpack here: First of all, what kind of hug is this? Brotherly/sisterly love? An “I missed you” hug? An “I’m so glad you’re alive” hug?
Or is this something more sinister? Were they squeezing too tightly? Did Sansa look up because Jon’s hand accidentally rubbed her thigh? Oh God… ARE THEY GOING TO DO IT?
Oz Conjecture: No. They’re not. Why are we even talking about this? We all know that Sansa is going to end up with the Hound as evidenced by his actions toward her going all the way back to the end of Season 1. It is known… leave it alone.
And sorry, Joe. You’re a good-looking dude and all, but Sandor was leaving his toothbrush while protecting Sansa’s place long before you were around.
Houndsa™ will have cake by the ocean and produce beautiful half dog/half wolf pups that will bring peace and prosperity to whatever is left of the North post-Great War.
OK, that’s Sansa. But what about Hey Jon Snow(pronounced Ae-Jon Snow)?
He’s taken too. But not by Dany. Her name is Hey Rose Leslie (pronounced Ae-Rose Leslie), and she is kissed by fire in more ways than one. In Season 4, Episode 9, we see AeJon go to burn the dead body of Ygritte. But did we actually see the body burning?
GoT is no stranger to ambiguous deaths. And while we do know that she died, if her body didn’t burn, could she come back as Ygritte Wight?
Call it crazy, but now that they are hitched in real life, could Kit have called in a favor to D&D for Rose to make a return?
Oz Conjecture: AeJon runs into blue-eyed Ygritte Wight and in lieu of killing her, bags her up like the Wight that got UPS’ed down to King’s Landing for Cersei to see. He proceeds to have Samwell (cured greyscale) read through hundreds of books and locate how to change a wight back to a human (I Am Legend). In the biggest twist of them all, Sam succeeds.
Hey Jon and Hey Rose both agree to “fuck the cold” and catch a boat to the Summer Islands where they live tan and warm and happily ever after.
However, this ambiguous death (and subsequent non-burning) issue rears its ugly head, literally, as the whole Wight family shows up to attack whoever is left in Westeros. This includes, but is not limited to: Syrio Wight, Stannis Wight, Blackfish Wight, Hodor Wight, Tyene Wight, and Olenna Wight among others.
But, what about Dany? She is with child!
Yes. She is. You were right about this one.
Unfortunately, the father has run off to the southern isles with his true love reinvented, only to leave Dany as a single mom. What’s worse is that Jon is not really Jon. And he’s not Aegon. He’s not even Qui-Gon.
Jon is not a Targaryen at all. He is actually (and secretly) a red priest, which is the reason Red Velvet (Melisandre) was so attracted to him to begin with. In Season 8, we will discover that the Lord of Light has the ability to skew the visions of the Three-Eyed Raven thus throwing Bran’s enlightenment off-kilter.
Do you know what that means?
Oz Conjecture: Dany will give birth to a shadow baby, which admittedly will be easier to care for as a single parent, yet not necessarily what she was hoping for.
After Dany meets Jaime, who subsequently dies from wounds suffered while battling Olenna Wight, the shadow baby takes the form of a dragon with Jaime’s face and flies to King’s Landing to kill Cersei.
Prophecy fulfilled, MF’s.
So, the Dragon Queen will sit on the Iron Throne?
Um… No.
Not only is it the most predictable outcome that won’t outcome, it also won’t happen because there are other evil powers at work in addition to the NK.
Here’s the DL on the NK and the DQ: Their will be a battle of IaF (shocker). The good dragons will take out a large swath of the wights as well as bad dragon, but the NK will be MIA.
After mass casualties, the situation will seem to be coming to a favorable ending featuring the defeat of the dead army with Dany and a few other notables having survived the melee. But there is fly in the ointment. Or rather, a spider…
Oz Conjecture (and this one is actually a remote possibility): Varys is a f***ing warlock.
One of the few remaining loose ends left in the show is the inclusion of this group being featured in both S2 and S3 in the form of Pyat Pree in Qarth and the random dock-jumping girl with the blue popsicle fetish hanging out in Astapor. The former tried to enslave Dany and the dragons while the latter attempted to assassinate her with a scorpion sprayed with chrome-green spray paint.
If the warlock chapter had ended with Pyat Pree, who was left to die in the House of the Dying Undying, then I really don’t question this much. But blue raspberry ring-pop girl changed that. If she is not included in the show, I probably don’t even give this a second look.
But here is a pedestrian case in point: Varys has always seemingly preferred to be in the presence of Targaryens. Dragons are important to the magic of the warlocks. Varys was sold to a sorcerer who plucked his plucker and plucklings and threw them in a brazier, which made the fire turn blue. Warlocks drink blue shit. Put Varys on the flexatarian diet, and he kinda looks like Pyat Pree. He also despised and doubted the Lord of Light, potentially signaling his disdain for other practicing magicians in potential favor of his own. Kinvara somehow magically knew of Varys’ castration yet tells him that he has nothing to fear from her.
Then there was the weird convo between Varys and Red Velvet at Dragonstone where she stated that she must return to die in Westeros, just like him. Huh?
And then, the seed of doubt… Dany confronts Varys about his loyalty as well as his intent given the fact that he had assisted in helping find her so that she could be killed.
Later, Tyrion and Varys have a discussion:
Tyrion Lannister: “I am her Hand, not her head. I can’t make her decisions for her.”
Varys: “That’s what I used to tell myself about her father. I found the traitors, but I wasn’t the one burning them alive. I was only a purveyor of information. It’s what I told myself when I watched them beg for mercy – I’m not the one doing it. When the pitch of their screams rose higher – I’m not the one doing it. When their hair caught fire, and the smell of their burning flesh filled the throne room – I’m not the one doing it.”
Tyrion Lannister: “Daenerys is not her father.”
Varys: “And she never will be, with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen. “
Varys’ justification to himself about the actions of the Mad King could signal that he is not willing to stand idly by and let something of the like happen again. And you have to ask yourself, why would such a conversation be included in the script so close to the end game?
Something is amiss. Will Varys turn on her because she refuses to listen to reason? Or because he has an ulterior motive? Was Tyrion’s obvious displeasure with Jon and Dany doing to the “dirty boat ride” a foreshadowing of the Spider and the Imp making a move?
Oz Conjecture on Conjecture: Varys betrays and takes out Dany offering her dead body up for resurrection to the Night King along with some frosty nuptials. In return, the NK agrees to go back beyond the Wall leaving Westeros to live without fear from him and the newly wedded and crowned blue-eyed Dragon Queen.
Night King and Dany, sitting in a tree. Maybe that one is a reach. But Varys will betray Dany.
Now that they are gone, who takes the IT? 
Oz Conjecture: Euron wins it all, causing Greyjoy loyalists to rejoice while the other 99% of us call “Bullshit”
Is it outlandish? Yes. But that’s what we’re doing here.
“Finger in the Bum” Greyjoy didn’t even grace our screens until Season 6, and even then he appeared in only two episodes. But he made quite a splash when he threw Balon off the bridge (he,he,he). He was then able to construct an entire fleet of ships in a seemingly short amount of time, which takes mad skills.
In S7, Euron played a more prominent role appearing in 4 out of 7 episodes and proving his worth to Cersei by killing two Sand Snakes and delivering mom and the third to KL. She apparently trusted him enough to send him off to collect the Golden Company on her behalf as well. And now that Jaime is gone, and with the assumed demise of the players in the North (as noted above), Euron could conceivably end up where everyone else has been trying to get for a full seven seasons by default.
Wouldn’t that be some shit.
The point, if there is one, is this:
I scribed this a year ago, and it is apparently true as evidenced here and here:
There is no way, regardless of how spectacular the ending, that this tale is going to end with gratification for the masses.
So, jot this down somewhere so that in a year and a half you can easily locate and show proof once Season 8 concludes… most viewers likely won’t approve of the ending. It will be ridiculed and questioned and criticized. There will be loose ends (hopefully very few). D&D will be proclaimed idiots by many, and the true ending that the creator envisioned may forever remain unwritten. As George stated, it will be bittersweet. And that is a best-case scenario.
The theories are just what they are. Theories. Some of them are legitimate, educated guesses. Some are optimistic hopes for how the author would like to see the show conclude.
But understand, your ending will likely not be THE ending. Neither will mine.
Game of Thrones is an anomaly. Never has there been such a fanatical interest in a television series that prompts unpaid research by so many in a world that does not exist. That is a testament to George and to D&D and should be appreciated as much as it is scrutinized.
If you hold an inflated expectation of how the story should end from your perspective, the end game could be an agonizing event for you.
“Everything ends badly. Otherwise it wouldn’t end.”
Expect the worst. Hope for the best. Enjoy the ride. Game Over Soon.
That’s a wrap for the Oz today, boys and girls! Coming up next: The original Death Odds for S8. Accept no imitations.
In the meantime, go enjoy a podcast.
Hope all you kiddos are doing well! Let me know where I’m wrong (you always do), stay thirsty, and may there always be peace in your realm.
-Oz
“Unbowed. Unbent. Unsullied.”
Oz!
“If you hold an inflated expectation of how the story should end from your perspective, the end game could be an agonizing event for you.”
Well said. I think too many people are setting themselves up for disappointment by assuming too much about the ending. All you have to do is read the most recent posts on this site as examples of how some folks are expecting certain things to happen, and if they don’t, they’ll be upset.
Having said that, I still want my 15 minutes back, Oz 🙂
“Coming up next: The original Death Odds for S8.”
That should be interesting. I’ll just assume everybody dies except for Sam, Gilly, lil Sam, Sansa, and Arya. Maybe Missandei and Tyrion too.
Another great fun read. Missed you Oz! Really like your theory about Varys being a warlock.
Fully agreed. And they’ll blame D&D for bad writing.
That’d really be surprising considering he burned her body… 😛
While the journey, obviously, differs, I still think the overall ending will remain the same in GoT and ASOIAF.
To clarify, I’m sure the ending we get from D&D will be the same as the one they were told by GRRM when the show development began. I can’t say where the author will take the story now that the secondary stories have diverged and he’s seen audience reaction to various plot points. I can absolutely see him changing ADoS if the ending of GoT is roundly criticized.
Note to future showrunners: wait until the final manuscript is at the publishers before beginning to adapt a blockbuster book series.
“Kissed by fire in more ways than one”.
A consideration I had overlooked until now. That laugh alone was worth my fifteen minutes.
Thanks, Oz!
Also. Something witchy is up with Varys, for sure.
OK Oz- Varys is a warlock. But is he a MER-warlock?
That implies that D&D are suffering some negative consequences for catching up to the books and for having to create their own ending to an incomplete story. Sure, it couldn’t be easy for them, but audiences are still responding well to their show and GOT continues to be the most popular show on television right now. I think it’s Martin that needs to learn a lesson, assuming he’s not happy that his story is being told by someone else. Don’t sell the rights of your series until it’s completely finished.
It only takes 5 minutes if you just skim it and don’t see any Arya theories.
Thanks Oz for the food for thought. Unfortunately the food is from Nando’s.
= = = = ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ
Young Dragon,
Generally, as intended, adapting a work in progress is fraught with hazard for both seller and buyer, and anyone contemplating doing so should study the lessons from the ASoIaF/GoT collaboration. Who knows where either work will end up?
The screenwriter usually gets the short end of the stick on ALL adaptations, though, making their success less certain than the author. More people say they hated a movie and loved the book than vice-versa. Myself included. Don’t get me started on the shambolic Simon Burch adaptation of A Prayer for Owen Meany. <>
Specifically to this show, D&D and GRRM are both in unenviable positions. If the GoT ending is a miss, D&D will be blasted for ruining the source material. If the ending is heralded as brilliant, GRRM can either take the easy road and end ADoS much the same, or he can change it and risk alienating people who will then see the GoT adaptation as the true and better ending, rather than the one he created after decades of writing.
From a business/artistic standpoint, there’s less volatility to adapting a completed work.
Aunt Lysa didn’t die. Some priest came along and loaded her shattered body into a gurney, and was about to bury her when he heard her cough. She’d been in a coma and full body cast since S4. Now she’s awake, fit as a fiddle, and ready to bring some much-needed lunacy – I mean colorful behavior – back to the show.
No kidding. At least there was some Sandor ❤️ Sansa speculation. The big fella deserves at least one happy memory – preferably several – before he goes out in a blaze of glory saving his Little Bird – again.
So there it is. Mother’s milk is the key to defeating the NK. Aunt “the breasts that were promised” Lysa to the rescue!
Nope. Gross. Not gonna happen, nor should it. Houndie deserves better.
LMAO!!
Jaime will not die. Do not believe malicious rumours.
Sansa will make it just to drive many people mad.
Jon is already dead, I saw a bunch of people stab him to death. No matter what Mel did, he will eventually fall over and act like other dead people.
Tyrion always finds a way out of his problems – he may say he drinks and knows things. He should say…I know things and I always walk away whistling.
Hear, hear! The whole “SanSan” plotline was excised, starting in Season 1. Sansa never heard Sandor tell his long-held secret – Littlefinger told her, in his smarmy, slimy, snickering way. Sansa never met Sandor on the stairs, nor on the roof, and their final scene together during the battle of the Blackwater seemed to be in some hallway, not her bedroom, and all he told her was, every man was a killer.
We’re more likely to see “ArSan”, as Arya was the sister who got the sad story and was a close (albeit reluctant) companion of the Hound, getting to see him fight for their lives several times. However, on the show, the age difference is just too extreme. Arya may be something like 11-12 on the show and the Hound in his 40s. She’d be 10 by the books and him pushing 30. A reasonable match by Westerosi standards, but the American fans wouldn’t like it.
Despite my wishful thinking, I do know it’s not going to happen. If Sandor & Sansa was going to be a “thing”, then Brienne would have expressly name-dropped Sandor when talking with Sansa in S6e2 Instead, Brienne told Sansa she saw Arya with “a man.” That to me was a conspicuous anti-foreshadowing (more like WTF?).
I agree that Houndie deserves better. But who? Not Arya: she’s his surrogate daughter.
If you were playing matchmaker, whom would you choose as a mate for Sandor Clegane aka the Warrior of Light? Though I hate to say it, after the “top tier” female characters (Dany, Cersei, Arya, and Show!Sansa), there’s a paucity of female characters. Gilly belongs to Sam. Geezer Melisandre is gonna get slow-roasted in WF’s blacksmith’s forge by Gendry, and we don’t want to see her with Sandor anyway (“Just my luck I wind up with a 200 year-old fire-worshipping witch”“). Alys Karstark has said only three words in one or two minutes. Karsi would’ve been a good match. (Foul mouth? Check. Sarcasm? Check. Fearlessness? Check.) But unless Sam finds a treatment for wightness, Karsi’s not an eligible bachelorette.
I just thought of Sansa because she shouid be jonesing for Sandor since more than once he (unwittingly) used the three principles of the Tao of Steve* on her (“Be desireless. Be excellent. Be gone.) Esoecially the second one: “Do something excellent in her presence.” He came to Loras’s aid when Gregor went ballistic. He rescued Sansa from gang rape and murder during the KL riot.
* Enjoyable indie flick.
Any candidates?
Welcome back, Oz. You’ve been missed. I particularly like your speculations about many possible wights. Maybe you’ll start an equal wights movement. I only disagree about SanSan— it’s possible in the books, but probably not in the show because of the huge age difference between the actors. And it’s good to know we have your next set of predictions to look forward to hopefully sometime soon.
In a lurid way, I’m still hoping that NK & WWs have their own “Prince Who Was Promised” and that’s who they’re after and why they breached the Wall to head south: Little Sam aka “A Gift from the Gods.” He was promised to the WWs – until Sam threw a monkey wrench into the adoption.
Oz! Lovely to see you… uhm… I’d better not say anything… (scared anything would be spoilery)
This:
The show will not end as the individual head-canons of thousands of fanatical fans have decreed in their own minds, so they all will hate it. Tough.
I’m 99.9% sure my favourite character will die, I’ve made my peace with it years ago. I’ve even made my peace with D&D “butchering” his character development for several seasons. All others, I don’t really care as long as their deaths/survival is written in a way that makes sense, gives pay-off. I’ll enjoy the show.
Sandor’s arc isn’t about finding romance or a wife. He just needs to find a purpose that doesn’t involve killing. The show did well with him so far. I think he’s a more interesting character in the show. +1 for D&D
See, that’s the thing – I’m not really much of a “pair-er-upper”. I don’t see the need to have characters end up with this person or that person, etc. And despite my dislike for Sansa, that’s not the main reason why I say Sandor deserves better. After everything, it would be nice for him to not be in service to anyone, although he’s pretty much a volunteer now. I’d love it if he found a direction in life post-conflict should he survive. No idea what it would be, mind you, but I don’t see that he’d want to stick around any lords or ladies. I feel like he’s done with that.
I also feel like he’s already fought for and protected both Stark girls numerous times (and Jon in a less one-on-one way), is that how his character will go out? I think chances are good, but I’d rather he not have to rescue anyone anymore. Going out alongside them versus the enemy is pretty likely.
If I had to bet money on it, I’d say that Arya will be the one forced to ‘remember where the heart is’ in the end. Sadly it’s just too much of a coincidence to me that she refused to put him out of his misery once before – I have to think that it will come back around this time when there is no maester hiding behind a rock. ☹ She’ll be forced to give him the gift of mercy, for his sake, and it’ll break everyone’s hearts. Gah.
If I had to pick someone for him, it would be someone who isn’t in the running for many reasons – Brienne. He has a grudging respect for the woman who kicked his ass, and their interaction outside the dragonpit discussing Arya was honestly one of my favourite moments of the season.
http://consumerimpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/brienne-and-the-hound-e1503893410500.png
talvikorppi,
If George never finishes the books, we have one big thing to be thankful for;
. As a pre-books fan, I was so pleased that the Hound returned. It would have been so easy in the adaptation process to just leave him dead.
I can just imagine if for some reason the show had been cancelled after S4: Sandor left for dead and presumed KIA. It would not have been so surprising these days when even the best shows peter out after 2-3 seasons. (I don’t watch “The Walking Dead”, but I hear grumbling from fans that it’s started sucking really bad.) Also, some of the best shows get new showrunners or writers after the first few years and lose their “magic,” Hell, a few years ago I got invested in a show starring a young Olivia Wilde – and it got pulled without notice after 4 or 5 episodes. Then there was that show with Eva Greene – I forgot its name already – incorporating classic monster stories – oh yeah. “Penny Dreadful” – that just abruptly ended. (I loved her performance. The show…not so much.)
I gotta give Benioff and Weiss credit. As I’ve said before. I’m sure when they took on this project they never anticipated running out of source material and having to write scripts on time and produce them within budget every year based on a general road map showing the ultimate destination without exact directions how to get there. I’ll bet if they had 6-7 years between seasons, all of the hiccups and misfires we (including yours truly) whinge about would’ve been ironed way before filming.
For sure! The show did a fabulous job with The Hound. Just about every scene he’s in is on my perpetual rewatch list. And after 67 episodes, I’m still waiting for a scene to knock the last nine minutes of “Two Swords” from its perch as my #1 all-time favorite scene. His long speech bashing Arya (“wish I’d never laid eyes on you) to letting down his guard and telling her how Gregor burned him, was the primary reason S4e7 is my all-time favorite episode.
Can’t say enough about The Hound. Great job by Rory McCann and the showrunners.
Pigeon,
Well, I just want him to have at least “one happy memory.” That was one of the saddest parts of his “death” speech in S4e10 when he was trying to goad Arya into killing him – that if he’d taken Sansa the night the Blackwater burned “at least I’d have one happy memory,” So tragic to go through life without at least one.
I’m anti-coupling. His “happy memory” could be going out a hero. Both Beric and Ray told him it’s not too late to help more than he’s harmed. And that’s what I think he’ll do, and leave this world with contentment instead of regret.
P.S. If he utters that line “Remember where the heart is” like you envision… I’m gonna need to load up on Kleenex and decoy onions.
Stark Raven Rad,
“Equal wights movement.”
Touché! 🤣
One of the best moments of the Dragonpit, Brienne and the Hound acting like divorced parents on recently good terms discussing their little murder princess.
Exactly! 😆
https://66.media.tumblr.com/c49a262df108907d2d4d01de3ac7a79e/tumblr_ovdsqmBl2b1qbyb95o4_400.gif
I sense it’s getting close to that time when we can expect some promo material from the show?
Agree.
Strongly disagree. I would lose massive respect for GRRM if he did this. No artist worth their salt would succumb to such things. George has said before, when asked whether he would change the ending if fans ended up guessing it or any major plot points, and he said would absolutely not. He went on to say that he is writing the story he wants to write and let the chips fall where they may. If he has spent the last 20+ years building up to an ending that he likes and he feels is right for his story, changing it so late in the game because the ending of the show is criticised would be an absolute travesty!
Besides, there is no possible ending the books could do that would not result in criticism, so he’d just be trading one ending that gets criticised for another.
Bless those who still have faith there will be ADoS.
There’s my fangirl/fanfic fantasy ending in my head. That’s OK, as long as it stays there. There are a few things that we probably have guessed will happen in the end, but, no, the ending will not please everyone. All I ask is that it makes sense to all the clues laid before (’cause otherwise that’s cheating) and that it’s well written. My big fear is pacing like we saw in s7 trampling over the juicy character moments.
I could ship Sandor with Brienne if I didn’t already ship her with both Jaime and Tormund, lol. (Kinda ironic that she winds up being my most-shipped character…but there’re multiple options if she were to end up with anybody.)
Lmao…Red Velvet sounds like what Mel’s name would be if they were all My Little Ponies. You know, in Equesteros. Dangit, I need a crossover. (Or maybe like…Firecracker? ‘Cause she’s always trying to crack the messages in the fire? xD) Well, I’ve already stated how I believe she’ll go out–although if she somehow survived and just kept the necklace on I could potentially work out a ship for her too. ^p^
Hmm, if Oz is unsullied, how does he know this much about
jonsa allday everyday
dora,
What about the Aegon Targaryen theory? Two identically-named sons of Rhaegar. Which one of the two you ask? Why, the little brother, of course.
How about no ships, no babies, no weddings, no regents, and no love triangles.
The only ship I’ll be okay with is the one on which Arya sails to explore the uncharted western frontier as S8s6 comes to a close and the credits roll.
#LastWomanStanding
👸🏻⛵️
How about no ships, no babies, no weddings, no regents, and no love triangles.
Working on that now! 😉
The failure of GRRM to finish the book has winners – I think the winners here are HBO and anyone that can make money from the guessing/discussions about the end. HBO has so many people in suspense that many casuals will watch just to be there when the end is unveiled.
I would also hope that D&D and HBO did explicitly consider what would happen if the books were not finished before the series. That conversation should be a given – they must have concluded that would make up an ending! GRRM is an old guy…bad things happen, they must have considered they would need to make it up or at least details from some general ideas on the end.
Also, I also think GRRM must have given some indications to HBO and D&D on how this story was to end. This outline would be taken into account as HBO bought into the series and also would have guided their important casting decisions.
For example – The Lannister family was carefully cast. Everyone cast in that family is probably the best the early GOT budget could buy. Everyone had established careers – no unknowns/no newbies. Among the younger actors, Joffrey (Jack) was the actor with the best critical praise for previous work at the start at GOT. Even beyond what we knew from the books, we could/should that foreseen that this family would be there right through the series to the end and provide much of the spine of the story to the end.
Also, I also think GRRM must have given some indications to HBO and D&D on how this story was to end.
It’s pretty well known that GRRM gave D&D the ending, and three key points en route: the burning death of Shireen Baratheon, the meaning of “Hodor,” and one final plot twist at the very end of the story. (My own speculation on the last is Dany losing it, becoming the final Big Bad whom the survivors have to take down. I expect to be proven wrong.)
you people are sick fucks for shiping sansa and the hound what the fuck is that
Um, like the ending of many a play by one Wm. Shakespeare?
Mango,
Mango,
I really have doubts that all the Lannisters are endgame material in the books. How do you get Jamie out of Lady Stoneheart’s clutches? It’s gotta be him or her? She seems to have more story left with either Arya giving her “the gift” or her recognizing Jon as King. Unless it’s Brienne that checks out? My money is on Jamie dying in Winds.
As for Cersei, I can’t tell if she’s endgame material either. It’s very possible but that would require Young Griff & most likely Euron to be setup characters for Cersei to seize the throne. Maybe instead of blowing up the sept at her supposed trial, she blows it up at a Griff/Arianne wedding or something like that? Or Euron kills Griff and the books takes a similar path to the show with a Euron/Cersei alliance???
On second thought, something like that could work. I just have a gut feeling that in the books all the Lannister’s except for “maybe” Tyrion die before the Great War. Because the War for the Dawn is A Time for Wolves and I think the Starks & Targaryens will be the ones to close the novels. And the Lannister’s will go the way of House Reyne…
At this point, there’s a 50/50 maybe even greater chance GRRM will not finish Thrones as a book. I’ve been following his career long before the show was even conceived in the womb of HBO.
IF he does finish it, he may wait a few years to release the book once the mania surrounding the show dies down. I work in the publishing industry, and there are rumors the book(s) finishing up Thrones have already been completed (with a few tweaks here and there), but that GRRM wants to wait for things to cool off before putting them out on the market.
A lot of it has been due to the fact that he is not happy about how HBO has developed the show. Some of his criticism has been that HBO has turned a complex story about human fragility into another doom and gloom monster fantasy quest. Most dedicated readers of Thrones knows the series ambiguously teeters on the edges of high fantasy – everyone seems to forget the story has always been about ‘the human heart in turmoil’!
On top of it, D&D also pushed back against the final book(s) being published because there may or may NOT have been a contract signed between them/HBO and GRRM stating that the book(s) couldn’t be published until XXX date as they’re afraid of the two stories conflicting or taking from one another! HBO apparently did not want the book(s) to steal the spotlight from the show – they wanted to be the ones to finish the ending and have the final say, I guess. We are speculating that there may be a one to two year delay with a major chapter leak somewhere in between. The show deviates in the characters who will be there at the end. Dany and Jon may die a lot earlier in the book(s) while they may live (?) on in the show (depending on what you mean by live).
All in all from things I’ve picked up over the years, the bittersweet ending as per the book(s) will end up with certain important show characters either dying or dropping out while minor characters on the show become key players. There will not be a perfect resolution to any situation and many things will be left up to speculation and others ambiguous and up to interpretation. This will be in contrast to the show which will take a more literal approach and eschew the inner turmoil of many characters. I am not sure specifically who.
Are you seeing such a great diversion btw the books and GOT? Certainly possible – but seems a bit inconsistent with what D&D and GRRM say in their interviews. We may never know.
We are in the final 10% of the TV series, the Lannister have already made it this far. We may discuss which characters make the final episode but they are already in the mix for the final stretch.
I have no idea how Jaime will survive undead Cat but that is GRRM’s job. Undead Cat was cut completely from the series. It was a good decision, I think. Perhaps that was possible as in the long run she had no impact on the key characters in the end game.
As for A Time for Wolves…..GRRM is a gardener writer he says and perhaps his story has flowered up in a manner that he did not expect……
Sansa Stark Lannister Bolton is the only fully human Stark that is still in the story.
Jon (undead), Arya (shapeshifter) and Bran (seer?) are all magical creatures of various sorts. They are not in the same states that they started the saga. (The TV version never bothered to include their warging talents.) In some sense, they already did not make it to the end. They are different personas from the kids that were being raised by Ned and Cat.
Mango,
That’s my thinking. I think the show has decided to streamline the source material. When you have talented actors like LH, PD, & NCW you roll with them. You bend the story to fit your Emmy nominated actors. Most feel GRRM got off track with Dorne & Mereen & Young Griff etc. So I can easily see D&D “cutting the fat” so to speak & giving other’s storylines to the Lannister’s who are already established.
But I did mention scenarios where the books could still get to where the show may end. It’s just that Jamie’s weirwood dream of the flame on his sword dying out while Brienne’s continued to burn kind of hinted that he would pass the torch onto his more honorable protege/love who will complete his mission. And Cersei’s valonquor is lurking. If it’s Arya or Tyrion she could last longer. If it’s Euron or the Hound, she might not make it to the finale in the books.
Too bad we’ll probably never get to find out from the books and the show may become the all encompassing canon… I sure would like to have two different endings & setups. 1 for the show & another for the books.
Aegon the IceDragon,
From what I’ve heard and read, GRRM shared the endgame with the showrunners. The books and show will reach the same destination. The “big ticket” plot points will be the same. e.g., Jon Snow’s parentage, and provably the Valonqar’s identity.
GRRm just didn’t give them the road map with specific directions how to travel to that common destination.
We may never find out for sure.
When I first read the book version of Maggy the Frog’s prophecies I wondered if Sansa and Jaime might end up together (though that would be gross; book Sansa is still in her early teens). That was because I thought the younger more beautiful person who took everything Cersei held dear might be Sansa and Cersei and Jaime had a history of being close(i.e. was part of what Cersei held dear). Then if Sansa is the younger more beautiful person she could rule as a single woman – like Elizabeth I. Now I’m not so sure if it will be Sansa who casts Cersei down. Hot Pie referred to Arya being pretty in season 7 so maybe Arya will take what Cersei holds dear. (I don’t see Arya ending up with Jaime).
Mango,
Yes, you’re right about flowering in unexpected directions – our gardner writer needs to get weeding and bring out his pruning shears (in my opinion), though I will always be grateful to him for creating the story.
YouTuber “Secrets of the Citadel” did some analysis of chapters from the first ASOIAF book (she could have done some from the second also). She mentioned that GRRM had said that how the story was to pan out was hinted at in the early chapters. In the light of that (and I’m aware Tywin butchering the deer was a show only thing) I wondered (and it saddens me to say it) if the Lannisters are headed for extinction. Tywin said that the family might flourish or might fizzle out like the Targaryens (though there are a couple of Targaryens left I know). My (head only) fan fiction seldom comes to fruition though and I’m trying to avoid spoilers for season 8 – okay it’s pretty obvious there will be a battle or battles.
I always enjoy Oz’s posts so I was glad to see a commentary from him again.
Dame of Mercia,
You don’t think that “another, younger and more beautiful” could refer to Danaerys? I mean Arya is pretty, but not undeniably “more beautiful” than Cersei, unless Cersei loses her appeal due to age or alcohol or whatnot. Dany, on the other hand, is described not just as pretty, but striking, easily a contender for “more beautiful”, even than Cersei.
That’s not to say that Arya will not kill her, but she may well work together with Dany (or Sansa if that’s your poison).
Aegon the IceDragon,
Jaime definitely has more story in the books coming, however he gets out of the situation he’s presently heading into.
There’s no way that Cersei’s role in the books is anything like the role she has in the show, though. That’s an obvious, massive show alteration — Book Cersei is nothing like the show version at this point.
Mango,
“Sansa Stark Lannister Bolton is the only fully human Stark that is still in the story.”
did i miss book! Rickon’s death? (note to self: re-read!)
Dame of Mercia,
“Now I’m not so sure if it will be Sansa who casts Cersei down. Hot Pie referred to Arya being pretty in season 7 so maybe Arya will take what Cersei holds dear. (I don’t see Arya ending up with Jaime).”
————–
Hold that thought for a moment.
Now, I doubt GoT will do a teen flick “makeover” of Arya. However… (*retrieves old tinfoil theory from trash bin*), I believe Aisling Franciosi was cast because of a more than passing resemblance to Maisie Williams…
https://78.media.tumblr.com/15637bfb5bc255306872707734d1458b/tumblr_o9qw8hxPEM1uqudfso1_1280.jpg
From the cold open of young Cersei in S5e1; and Cersei’s S1 scenes with Robert and with Ned, we know that:
1. Cersei was expecting to marry Prince Rhaegar, but Lyanna Stark took him from her.
2. Cersei married King Robert, but Lyanna Stark – even in death – took him from her.
3. Lyanna Stark was (as Cersei told Robert) a ghost that haunted their marriage.
4. Here’s how Cersei described Lyanna’s hold on Robert:
(Cersei and Ned in S1e7)
Ned: “You’ve always hated him.”
Cersei: “Hated him? I worshipped him! Every girl in the Seven Kingdoms dreamed of him, but he was mine by oath. And when I finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life. That night he crawled on top of me, stinking of wine, and did what he did, what little he could do, and whispered in my ear, ‘Lyanna.’ Your sister was a corpse and I was a living girl and he loved her more than me.”
5. Here’s how Cersei and Robert, after 17 years of marriage, were still haunted by Lyanna’s ghost:
(from S1e5 Robert & Cersei)
Cersei: “What was she like?”
Robert: “You’ve never asked about her, not once.
Why not?”
Cersei: “At first, just saying her name even in private felt like I was breathing life back into her.
I thought if I didn’t talk about her, she’d just fade away for you. When I realized that wasn’t going to happen, I refused to ask out of spite. I didn’t want to give you the satisfaction of thinking I cared enough to ask. And eventually it became clear that my spite didn’t mean anything to you.
As far as I could tell, you actually enjoyed it.
Robert: “So why now?”
Cersei: “What harm could Lyanna Stark’s ghost do to either of us that we haven’t done to each other a hundred times over?”
Robert: “You want to know the horrible truth? I can’t even remember what she looked like.
I only know she was the only thing I ever wanted.
Someone took her away from me, and seven kingdoms couldn’t fill the hole she left behind.”
Cersei: “I felt something for you once, you know?
***
For quite a while, actually. Was it ever possible for us? Was there ever a time, ever a moment?”
Robert: “No.”
6. I’m not so sure Cersei holds Jaime “dear” anymore. The throne or the purported bun in the oven are all she could “hold dear” at this point.
7. Okay, I know this would be cliche. I know some fans would groan. Yet…
How delicious would it be if Lyanna 2.0 shows up and takes all Cersei holds dear again?
Hot Pie is prescient. His spontaneous remark to Arya, “You’re pretty!”, even when she was in rough-hewn traveling clothes, could mean something, as you suggest.
It would not take much to make the Many-Faced Goddess look like her Aunt Lyanna, and spook the sh*t out of Cersei.
It’s interesting how many times the theme of betrayal has recurred concerning Dany:
1) Quaithe asked Jorah if he’d betray Dany again
2) Viserys threatened to kill her baby
3) Grey Worm tells Tyrion that if he betrays Dany’s work, then Tyrion is his enemy.
4) Kinvara warns Varys that if he’s Dany’s true friend, he has nothing to fear from her.
4) Dany confronts Varys about his apparent disloyalty to former kings.
5) Olenna warns Dany about surviving Tyrion’s clever plans.
Dame of Mercia,
“Now I’m not so sure if it will be Sansa who casts Cersei down. Hot Pie referred to Arya being pretty in season 7 so maybe Arya will take what Cersei holds dear. (I don’t see Arya ending up with Jaime).”
————–
Hold that thought for a moment.
Now, I doubt GoT will do a teen flick “makeover” of Arya. However… (*retrieves old tinfoil theory from trash bin*), I believe Aisling Franciosi was cast because of a more than passing resemblance to Maisie Williams…
https://78.media.tumblr.com/15637bfb5bc255306872707734d1458b/tumblr_o9qw8hxPEM1uqudfso1_1280.jpg
From the cold open of young Cersei in S5e1; and Cersei’s S1 scenes with Robert and with Ned, we know that:
1. Cersei was expecting to marry Prince Rhaegar, but Lyanna Stark took him from her.
2. Cersei married King Robert, but Lyanna Stark – even in death – took him from her.
3. Lyanna Stark was (as Cersei told Robert) a ghost that haunted their marriage.
4. Here’s how Cersei described Lyanna’s hold on Robert:
(Cersei and Ned in S1e7)
Ned: “You’ve always hated him.”
Cersei: “Hated him? I worshipped him! Every girl in the Seven Kingdoms dreamed of him, but he was mine by oath. And when I finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life. That night he crawled on top of me, stinking of wine, and did what he did, what little he could do, and whispered in my ear, ‘Lyanna.’ Your sister was a corpse and I was a living girl and he loved her more than me.”
5. Here’s how Cersei and Robert, after 17 years of marriage, were still haunted by Lyanna’s ghost:
(from S1e5 Robert & Cersei)
Cersei: “What was she like?”
Robert: “You’ve never asked about her, not once.
Why not?”
Cersei: “At first, just saying her name even in private felt like I was breathing life back into her.
I thought if I didn’t talk about her, she’d just fade away for you. When I realized that wasn’t going to happen, I refused to ask out of spite. I didn’t want to give you the satisfaction of thinking I cared enough to ask. And eventually it became clear that my spite didn’t mean anything to you.
As far as I could tell, you actually enjoyed it.”
Robert: “So why now?”
Cersei: “What harm could Lyanna Stark’s ghost do to either of us that we haven’t done to each other a hundred times over?”
Robert: “You want to know the horrible truth? I can’t even remember what she looked like. I only know she was the only thing I ever wanted. Someone took her away from me, and seven kingdoms couldn’t fill the hole she left behind.”
Cersei: “I felt something for you once, you know?
***
For quite a while, actually. Was it ever possible for us? Was there ever a time, ever a moment?”
Robert: “No.”
6. I’m not so sure Cersei holds Jaime “dear” anymore. The throne or the purported bun in the oven are all she could “hold dear” at this point.
7. Hot Pie is prescient. His spontaneous remark to Arya, “You’re pretty!”, even when she was in rough-hewn traveling clothes, could mean something, as you suggest.
8. Okay, I know this would be cliche. I know some fans would groan. Yet…
How delicious would it be if Lyanna 2.0 shows up and takes all Cersei holds dear again?
It would not take much to make the Many-Faced Goddess look like her Aunt Lyanna, and spook the sh*t out of Cersei.
I’m still waiting for Jon’s superpower to be revealed. Can it be that his superpower is being the son of both ice and fire?
And I still don’t get what the clash of these two natural elements, ice and fire, is all about. If I divided everyone into teams, I’d say that the Starks and the White Walkers would fall into the ice team while Dany and the R’hollor followers would be on the fire team. And there Jon would be, between both teams, embodying both elements at the same time, and in a sense, combining them. In the natural world, they don’t mix and will destroy each other.
My theory is that this show is an extended game of Pokemon. What proves this is when Varys tells Dany “..I choose you!”. Jon is a fire and ice pokemon that is strong against both fire or ice pokemon. Jon is the key to Dany prevailing against the walkers. Good thing she got him on her team before the walkers did!
After S7 (which again, tried to defend longer than most!), my expectations are very much battle, battle, stern looks, battle, boom boom boom, SURPRISING TWIST, new battle, NK and Tyrion getting everyone dope on some fresh-brew Blue shade of evening, Westeros brings down the house on Sam who dies (because everyone thinks he’ll live) and finally, as we’re watching the last minute with the score blaring away, Bran stares at cameras and laughs maniacally. But Jaime stands up and says a Lannister always pays his debts and pushes Bran out a previously-unseen window again, cut screen to GRRM flipping off the world and laughing.
High praises all around (though really nobody will be able to explain what happened, but GRRM flipped everyone off so cool).
I think I’m ready! Can I hear a LOWER expectation?!
(Besides Jonsa.)
No, BUT … in the books, there is no “Sansa Stark Lannister Bolton”, either, just “Sansa Stark Lannister” and “Arya (Jeyne Poole) Stark Bolton.” And Rickon was last rumored to be alive on that cannibal island, Skagos, up north in the Shivering Sea.
Heavenly – “The show deviates in the characters who will be there at the end. Dany and Jon may die a lot earlier in the book(s) while they may live (?) on in the show (depending on what you mean by live)”
I have no idea what is in the yet to arrive books. However, this statement has “truthiness”. That is it feels true even if it may not be. Any sensible end to the story could/should include the death of both these characters. (My doubt would be because GRRM is so fond of the Targs.) However, the popularity of Kit and Emilia and the prequel plans (Stark focused, and Jon is still identified as Stark) would encourage HBO and D&D to go for some kind of “undead/alive exit” to a special place or return to Valyria for both.
My wild, wild tinfoil (i.e., with no basis) I have wondered if Kit is also playing a combined character similar to Sansa being given a combined story. That is the reason he is named Aegon now…..either for young griff or aegon in the book. No evidence at all. Just tinfoil as I cannot reconcile Lyanna naming her son the same name as her husband’s other son.
Ha, made you look.
Derp!
Is it April 2019 yet?
Yes, yes you did. 🙂
Me too!
I am so starved of news, I have been checking the comments counts on each article. One of these days, we’ll all come to WOTW and there’ll be trailer waiting for us. Come on trailer!!!
Mr Derp,
All I see on TV is the countdown clock – 13 days until Election Day.
In my mind, I’m counting down the days until Arya sees Sandor again.
#RememberWheretheHeartIs.
1. Election days can be days of horror.
Hold on and brace yourself. This may be a second Halloween within weeks. Do not have too much faith in the goodness of your fellow citizen. There is something rotten in many more places than the state of Denmark. (There is really nothing rotten in Denmark but you know what I am going for….)
2. On GOT: The discussion of the young and more beautiful. I read one of the most interesting viewpoints on the identity of YMB – it is young Cersei. When Cersei was given the prophecy she was younger and more beautiful than the older Cersei that would lose whatever she valued most. The idea was – it is the impact of the prophecy on the young Cersei that would set up the paranoia and fear that would distort her entire life and lead to her loss of everything she values. When she heard her fate she was an unpleasant young girl, maybe not that unusual for an only daughter of a rich and powerful man and who lacked attentive guidance by a mother. The prophecy bent her mind even further and set her on a long-term self-destructive cycle.
3. Lena played Cersei in the early seasons as a mixture of vulnerability, fierceness, frustrated ambition and neediness. I think these early seasons were the best Cersei. You could understand why Jaime loved and took care of her. As he also took care of Tyrion. Then you see Cersei harden over time due to grief and hate to become the formidable force she is now. She has closed in on herself, closing even Jaime out. (As he has evolved anyway, away from her as his identity arc advances.) Lena has done a good job with this evolution. But it will not end well for Cersei. I hope she goes out in blaze of defiance.
4. Another theory on the YMB is that it is Brienne the Beauty. That the witch was referring to inner beauty in the sense of a more beautiful soul, a more beautiful person. This idea has some merit but I am not that engaged by this viewpoint. The author would be cheating quite a bit. When we say “beautiful” vs “beautiful x” where x is soul, heart, personality – we usually mean beautiful exterior features. However, this is another contribution to the discussion.
5. In terms of the casting, I do not know if any of the candidates are really more beautiful than Lena. Maybe Margery? Jaime? Yes, Jaime could be the YMB. (or did the prophecy say a “YMB queen”?, I forget) That is something to see how it works out.
Mango,
The idea of ‘young Cersei’ is interesting. Considering she’s been acting all along as though she expects the prophecy to come true, that means it’s self-fulfilling. I get gooseflesh just thinking about it. IMO the only thing Cersei cares about now is the IT and its power. “Power is power.” So whoever takes it, most likely Jon and/or Dany, is indeed physically more beautiful and younger than Cersei.
…..And on the interior beauty idea: At this stage of the story, everyone in GOT is probably more beautiful inside than Cersei. She has corroded so much, even the Night King may have the more beautiful soul at this point.
Mango,
I like the theories that young Cersei is the one destined to bring herself down, either through her downfall being her own mistakes or Maggie cursing her when they first meet. Jaime being the YMB is a fun twist as well.
However, I’m gonna stand by Brienne as the YMB as my favourite theory.
This is mainly because of a quote from LF in the book, where he talks about how Cersei draws her strength/power from her name, status as Queen and her beauty. These are the things that Cersei values as her greatest weapons and as a result she projects this onto her unknown rival. They must be beautiful, highborn and either in possession of or desiring a crown. Cersei herself that Maggie meant another as in ‘another queen’, but in truth that is never verified.
Brienne possesses none of these qualities. She is physically ugly, from a minor house and has no desire for a crown or any sort of social/political advancement. She simply wishes to do some good and find some acceptance.
What would make ‘Brienne the Beauty more beautiful’ is, as has been suggested, her inner beauty. Brienne’s inner beauty stems from her ability to love, and her desire to care and protect others. What is notable is that Cersei believes such qualities to be weaknesses, she explicitly tells Sansa to love no one, only her children because she has no choice to do otherwise. She equates strength with heartlessness.
So if it is Brienne’s inner beauty that causes her to be more beautiful than Cersei, and this goodness that brings her to prevail over her, then it is the very thing Cersei would consider a weakness; Brienne’s goodness, selflessness and ability to love, that would become Brienne’s strength over Cersei.
If GRRM is going for the younger version of Cersei as YMB, I would love it. That would be fun. But who knows?
Mango,
I believe the wording used in the show was younger more beautiful queen, so unless Jaime is going to start dressing in drag for season 8 he ain’t it.
Edit:
Actually, now that I think of it, I dont believe Maggy specifically says queen, so I suppose it could be a male afterall. Though, personally, I think the adjective “beautiful” fits better when referring to a female. I rarely hear men referred to as “beautiful”. I think “handsome” is more likely for a male, but hey, everyone’s different.
With regards to the wording of the prophecy, didn’t GRRM talk about how prophecies are double edged swords and can have hidden, double meanings? So actually twists like ‘inner beauty’ and beauty for a man (and I think Jaime is described as beautiful) as opposed to handsome, would actually be consistent with that.
Mango,
“5. In terms of the casting, I do not know if any of the candidates are really more beautiful than Lena. Maybe Margery? Jaime? Yes, Jaime could be the YMB. (or did the prophecy say a “YMB queen”?, I forget) That is something to see how it works out.”
—–
• Someone will correct me if I’m wrong: I think the prophecy was worded “… queen you shall be, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear.”
From the wording, some have postulated that the one who casts her down doesn’t necessarily have to be a queen.
• In terms of casting, yes, Lena is beautiful. But in my view, and Hot Pie’s too, Maisie/Arya is younger and more beautiful. (See my 10/21/18, 4:26 pm comment, above.)
It’s a tough one, because in many ways “beauty” is a function of personality. A boring, selfish, and nasty woman can start looking ugly really fast. A smart, witty, compassionate, and cheerful woman looks more attractive than the composite of her physical attributes.
Maybe that’s why for me, there may be other “candidates” on the show for YMBQ, but the actresses cast haven’t exuded that “beauty.”
I think we can rule out the Night King then.
Heavenly,
Though it may be primarily wishful thinking on my part, I have suspected for a long time that GRRM has been working on the last two books simultaneously, and that there will not be a huge time gap between releases. Your speculation that their timing has been influenced by the author’s deal with the showrunners may have some merit.
Fiction writers often start a project with a much clearer sense of how they want it to wrap up than of how they’re going to ‘garden’ it there. In a big series like ASoIaF, the next-to-last volume has to be the trickiest and the most unforgiving of oversights. It’s his last chance to get his huge flock of ducks in a row. Any detail necessary for foreshadowing, setup, making sure that every character (not to mention the reader) has had a way of finding out what he or she needs to know by the end – the penultimate book is where that all must happen. The final book is not the place for ‘Oh, by the way…’
In my mind’s eye, GRRM’s process at this point must be writing out most if not all of what remains to be accomplished or witnessed by each PoV character, comparing their timelines as he goes and tweaking where and how critical points of information are revealed. Breaking up these narratives into chapters and assigning them to Winds or Dream can’t totally happen until each ‘stream’ is nearly complete. Otherwise he runs the risk of forgetting important stuff until it’s narratively too late to introduce it or tie off a flapping loose end.
tl;dr: I expect to see Winds in print soon after the show wraps up, and I don’t believe that George will be back at Square One with Dream at that point. Go ahead and laugh at my naïveté.
Firannion,
I’ve gone back and forth on this one.
On the one hand, I could see some kind of deal being worked out where GRRM would be ok with waiting for the show to end before releasing the books.
However, on the other hand, I think it would be a poor decision to do that from an economic standpoint. I think people won’t care nearly as much about the books once the ending is revealed on the show, so sales would most likely suffer if GRRM waits until after the show. I could be wrong of course, and I’m sure there will still be plenty of people to purchase the books even after the show has revealed the ending, but i don’t think he’s purposefully waiting.
Martin has already refuted this.
All good stuff.
1. GRRM has a beauty and the beast love thing ongoing with Jaime and Brienne. In this story I think he means physical ugly, especially after that cheek chewing stunt. However, he could also have been working on the inner beauty ideas even at this level. I would not love it as Jaime is not ugly inside even if Brienne is beautiful inside. Yes, I think that these two will have a romance, physical and emotional. How far will it get – depends on time in 6 episodes and survival. (Jaime will not die. Do not believe malicious rumours.)
2. Whatevergaf: I am not sure what to make out of the wording on Brienne having power over Cersei. These two barely know each other. Do you think they will have a confrontation? Do you expect a catfight between them over Jaime? 80s style like in Dallas? Or over harm to Sansa?
3. TBears: I like the idea that a person with an unconventional face and body (‘ugly” if you prefer) can be magnetic because of their personality and how they engage. I find this is most common in persons that have found self-acceptance – especially with their physical features. Self-love can breed self-confidence and ability to give to others from a place of their own joy.
4. Brienne is possibly the” best” woman on the show and any of the men or women there would be lucky to have her as a love partner. She and Jaime are a couple in the making. She needs to find self-acceptance however and become more secure. The Lannister are not a shy, insecure bunch.
5. So yes, she is good Brienne. I have some reservations about how the character is written. I sometime wonder if we are to see a good woman as: not interested in wielding power (Brienne does not even seem interested in Tarth); obedient (obeys every oath without question and critical thinking); servile (in GOT, ordered about even by Sansa and even a bit by Arya); not sexy; runs errands endlessly for others (Sansa and Jaime); virgin (even after Sansa who we met as a kid could have bedded two husbands and kissed Littlefinger). At least Brienne is given talent – courageous and a good fighter. She is also out in the world on adventures on her own. That aspect is encouraging. She does not have to be primarily driven by power but some comfort with her “Evenstar” responsibilities would be nice.
6. NK is not that ugly within his national characteristics – he is quite acceptable.
Firannion,
Brian Wilson’s follow up to “Pet Sounds” was supposed to be his masterpiece, an album called “Smile” in 1966. He couldn’t finish it, for whatever reasons. “Sample chapters” from Smile. i.e., single songs such as “Good Vibrations”, were released over the next several years.
It wasn’t until 2004 – 38 years later – that he finally got his head screwed on straight and finished and released “Smile.”
Is there a comparison to GRRM?
Would he tell us if that were what he were doing, though? I think not. Why spoil the surprise? This is the master of misdirection we’re talking about – the unreliable narrator behind the most motley crew of unreliable narrators in contemporary literature. I’m not prepared to rule it out just because he’s playing coy.
Ten Bears,
Much as I admire Brian Wilson, I think he is (or was) a hell of a lot crazier than George.
Did you happen to see ‘Love & Mercy’? I adored that movie. Incredible use of sound to convey the way the world is perceptually different inside BW’s head from the way the rest of us mere mortals hear it.
More or less what I’m thinking as well, with the exception that Winds is already finished and edited.
Mango,
I agree that I would definitely like Brienne to move on from serving Sansa and Arya and accept her role as the future Evenstar. I believe if she did it would not be out of a desire for power but a belief that in taking on the role she will have the opportunity to do good.
As for power over Cersei, I just generally meant that if Cersei is fearing a person ‘more beautiful’ than her, it is Brienne’s inner beauty that gives her this edge. And there is some groundwork of tension between them (their interaction at the Dragonpit meeting and Joff’s wedding.) I am not sure how Brienne would cast her down exactly, but it will probably be through influencing Jaime somehow. It’s worth remembering that Jaime was the commander of Cersei’s army and one of the few people Cersei can trust and had her best interests at heart. Now that Jaime has left her, her situation is significantly weaker, her forces under the command of people who are only concerned in their own best interest.
Firannion,
Considering how people are becoming increasingly more annoyed, I think he would offer them hope. After the 5 years it took for Feast and the 6 years it took for Dance, the time for being coy is over. Besides, Martin doesn’t play games with this sort of thing. I think the most obvious answer is the correct one. Martin’s writing has slowed to a crawl. People who think otherwise are setting themselves up for disappointment.
Martin is making big money through HBO with more money to come through more potential shows. If HBO asked him to hold Winds to avoid any negative publicity from the hard core book fans, you don’t think he’d do it? He’s no fool who would piss away millions like that.
After the show is done, the book readers are still gonna gobble the books up just to see the differences between the two. This opens up the opportunity for years of debate far after the books & shows have passed from our everyday thought.
Plus, I truly feel that GRRM is releasing Fire & Blood because the Blackfyre’s play a large role in the last two books and he’s got no time to go into their history deeply enough in Winds & Dream. So he gives us Targ history in F&B to get us ready for The Blackfyre’s & Young Griff to bring the latest Blackfyre Rebellion/Dance of the Dragons to the Novels.
We may even get some Dragon horn history, how the Dayne’s are Targaryen ancestors, or even the secrets of Valyrian steel swords & armor. F&B is laying the groundwork for Winds. I fully expect Winds to release next year after the show has aired. And I think we’re gonna be shocked at how different Winds & ultimately Dream will be from the show due to changes the show had/or chose to make from the source content (direwolves, Jon & Arya warging, Young Griff & Blackfyres, Dorne, Lady Stoneheart, & Euron being much more formidable).
There is still a lot of story to be told in the novels that the show has left out. And I’d very much like to read it one day.
See, I can’t relate to this assumption at all. ASoIaF are the kind of books that get better with each reread, because each time you pick up on details whose significance was not apparent previously. Knowing the ending does not detract from that pleasure in the least. I’ve read or listened to the Harry Potter books over and over with no diminution of interest, because they too are well salted with tiny hints of what’s to come. And the ending stays the same!
Are there really people who read just to ‘see how it turns out,’ and not for the journey? That seems so sad to me.
To me, it’s both the journey and the ending, and I’m sure I’m not alone. If one of those is spoiled for me, it takes away from my enjoyment. People don’t like spoilers. If you’re not one of them, that’s fine, but don’t pretend we’re the weird ones.
Aegon the IceDragon,
I have no doubt that Martin would put a price on his artistic integrity, but I don’t see any motive for HBO to want to delay Winds. The reasoning you gave doesn’t make much sense. The book readers lashed out when the show diverged from Feast and Dance, and viewership kept rising.
Yes, I’m sure there are people who are reading the books for the specific purpose to know the ending. Especially the ones who’ve been reading these books since they first came out a while ago.
Just because you don’t share the same opinion doesn’t mean it has to be “sad”. Your opinions are often extremely judgmental for no reason at all.
Dawwwwww….Richard Madden with Maisie yesterday at her play. Still a supportive big bro. 😜
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpZGtp-gLCX/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=nim9n88ulgvj
Pigeon,
It gets even better! Jon Snow was there too, along with Samwell Tarly.
EW article (below) has great pictures.
“Maisie Williams has a Stark family reunion with two long-lost brothers”
“Maisie Williams had a Game of Thrones reunion Thursday night with two of her long-lost Stark family big brothers. The Arya actress met up with Kit Harington and Richard Madden — photos below — after her new play, I and You, opened in London.
Here’s Williams with actors who played Jon Snow and the late, great Robb Stark:”
https://ew.com/tv/2018/10/26/maisie-williams-stark-family-reunion/
————-
Everybody loves The Many-Faced Goddess!
Yes I saw that, I just love the Maisie/Richard photo. It’s too darn sweet! They all look so happy. 😊
As far as the original topic is concerned, I don’t know who will end up on the IT in the end or if there even will be a throne left at all, but I’m starting to think the YMBQ will actually be… Sansa.
By the time season 8 ends, she’ll be one of the few characters left standing that knows anything about ruling. She might even be the righful heir if all Stark males die and Dany and Jon die too. Especially if everyone finds out that Jon was the rightful heir. I’m not sure how the succession works though, so someone correct me if Im wrong.
As of right now, I personally believe Dany and Jon are both going to die, so neither of them will be an option. I think Jon dies when the NK dies since Jon’s a wight now.
“Where the heart is” and “stick em with the pointy end” will come back because Arya will kill the NK knowing that if she does, she’ll kill Jon too, but she’ll have to go through with it knowing that it’s the only way to kill the NK and AOTD. Talk about bittersweet.
I’m not entirely sure how Dany will die or what circumstances will surround her in season 8, but I think she and Jon will marry, and she’ll give birth to their child. I know most people think Dany dying in childbirth is such a lame way for her story to end, but if you think about it, it’s rather poetic. Perhaps, the only way she can have a child is by sacrificing her own life in the process. “Only death can pay for life”.
Mr Derp,
Bleh. I’m not that interested in Dany, Jon, their baby, or Sansa.
What I want to know is: For whom will Sandor sacrifice his life?
PS If there’s any foreshadowing of Arya having to use Needle to skewer a family member… it’d be Sansa. See Ned, S1.
Ten Bears,
Yea, I know your feelings on the matter. You’ve said so numerous times. This really isn’t about gauging your interest in it or not though. It’s more about whether or not this scenario is how the show will play out, for better or for worse.
And it gets even betterrr. As you know, I enjoyed the play and thought the female lead just glowed, but as objective as I tried to be perhaps some prejudice had crept in. That was the first preview. I just read the reviews from last night. They mostly gave the play 3-4 stars, but were unanimous in their praise of Maisie. My favourite was from the Telegraph. Their critic admitted rolling his eyes at the thought of a GoT star and asked, “Does she conquer here? The answer is a resounding – if not to say stark – “yes”.
YESSSS!!! The full review is at the URL below, but you may not be able to see much because they have a semi-paywall. You can read the first two paragraphs at the least. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/theatre/what-to-see/review-hampstead-theatre-maisie-williams-textbook-perfect-bid/
Sansa is a good candidate for YMB.
One just knows that if she does not die, then she will end up in a ruling role of some sort – the North or the entire Westeros. She is a player with impact.
Sansa’s story is unlike Arya’s role that has been a very personal story. Except for the Hound, Arya’s story has had a minor impact on the other big characters and ending story up to Season 7. (I know Trant and the Freys might disagree. But those deaths had no big consequences that I can recall. I may be wrong.) Season 8 may have an influential role for Arya but we do not know that yet.
Sansa’s activities have triggered major dramatic developments in the story. She could be the YMB.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Hey, that’s great! Always nice when a skeptic admits to being impressed (ouch to the jab at Faustus!). I have an account so was able to read the whole article – thanks! 😊 And I’m glad you were able to go and see it yourself! 😀
https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2018/10/24/12/maisie-williams-caroline-in-i-and-you-at-hampstead-theatre.-photo-credit-manuel-harlan.jpg?width=1368&height=912&fit=bounds&format=pjpg&auto=webp&quality=70
Mango,
Sorry to differ, my dear Mango. Here’s your YMBQ….
https://i.imgur.com/Wk6lyQ7.jpg
Ten Bears….That is such a wonderful photo! Fabulous dress! Crown to die for!
Ok, I yield. This must be the YMB.
I really wish Maisie the best in her career. Talented and with an interesting, dramatic face. Among the younger ones on GOT, she is among the most talented.
You mean ‘activities that have been done by other characters while she’s in the same general area.’
Pigeon,
Now I’m wondering if Arya will share scenes with Samwell Tarly in S8 – or if John Bradley came to see Maisie’s stage debut just for the hell of it.
Ten Bears:
Indeed. That is a fabulous photo. Rockin that Crown. Rockin that dress.
She could be the YMB.
Maisie is talented….I wish her a great career.
It wouldn’t surprise me, as they are both in Winterfell and he is going to be interacting with RoboBran on the whole family genealogy project. 😜 The GOT group of actors seem to genuinely support each other in their other endeavours, which is a really nice thing to see.
Mango,
“Sansa’s story is unlike Arya’s role that has been a very personal story. Except for the Hound, Arya’s story has had a minor impact on the other big characters and ending story up to Season 7. (I know Trant and the Freys might disagree. But those deaths had no big consequences that I can recall. I may be wrong.) Season 8 may have an influential role for Arya but we do not know that yet. Sansa’s activities have triggered major dramatic developments in the story. She could be the YMB”.
I agree about Sansa as possible YMB, but careful examination shows Sansa has had little influence except regarding the re-taking of Winterfell. She effected nothing in Kings Landing though she was there with players. Eventually LF and the QoT would probably have killed Joffrey, and LF would have killed Lysa for control of the Vale. The story change from Jeyne as fArya did allow Sansa to eventually escape Ramsay and urge Jon to re-take Winterfell. Notwithstanding some questionable details, that is HUGE.
Careful examination shows that Arya also had major impacts, none as huge per se but cumulatively with likely huge consequences. Trant was Joffrey’s, then Cersei’s favourite enforcer. Amory Lorch was Tywin’s . Letting Sandor live will probably mean that in Season 8 the Mountain dies and someone can get to Cersei. Saving Gendry’s life twice means he can forge magical weapons and perhaps be legitimised as a force in Westeros. Bookwise, saving Nymeria’s life means her huge wolfpack will support the allies against the AotD. Arguably, if Arya hadn’t spoken up for Jon and worked against Littlefinger, Sansa would have passively allowed LF to overthrow Jon and take over Winterfell and the North. Twice Sansa told LF she couldn’t do something because Arya wouldn’t let her. But taking out the important male Freys is Arya’s greatest impact. It deprived Cersei not of a few mere henchman, but of the extensive family she counted on to control a major region. Plus the Freys controlled the all-important bridge over the Trident. No wonder she and Jaime were upset to learn of the Frey destruction. Now that control is loose to nonexistent. Jon and his armies can move with ease.
I think by the end of Season 8, both sisters will have made huge contributions to the victories in both wars. As to YMB taking away everything Cersei hold dear, maybe ther are two. I suspect they’ll both contribute to that too. What does she hold dear (and always has)? POWER! Whatever leads to her death will probably involve them, though there is a good chance it is Arya who will finalise Cersei’s hold on power forever.
Two very similar posts…ughh!
Sorry. Blame the moderation genie. I thought the first post was gone for good after the moderation genie flew the freak flag when I posted it. After a few hours, I tried again with the same sentiment phrased differently. The second post arrived first. Then the first one got out of the moderation box and jumped ahead of the first. Making me look like I am senile -which may be true, but I hide it better than having two similar posts on the same day.
Sansa always gets grief.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
With all the positive feedback from Maisie’s stage debut, I thought it would be kind of fun to revisit Arya’s scene with Lady Crane in S6e8; Arya declines joining the theater troupe, saying she wouldn’t be able to remember the lines. 🎭
At 4:01…
well… well… when i read a book i want it to produce pictures in front of my inner 16:9. i want it to do so in any line of a page and with every word of a line. there’s no bigger joy for me as a reader than reading combinations of words that create a picture no movie can reproduce with the same intensity. writers have the advantage here: they can give me all the impressions of a scene going deeper into the detail than a movie can.
a movie is restricted to picture and sound, be it dialogue or score. writing can inform me about the scent of the air, about thoughts of all kinds and so much more the movie format can’t give.
after a long time of being some sort of book junkie and a shorter time of having access to movies any time i wish, i still have this one book in mind that has been brought to the screen two times – and both adaptations were good but also failed, had to fail because there’s simply no way to transform the immense amount of sensual impressions into motion picture which is transported by the written word. i’m talking about William Golding’s “Lord of the Flies”.
i had the luck to read the book before seing the movies. say what? in the movies, i missed a lot of the pictures the book gave to me. a lot! what satisfaction could the knowledge of the outcome of that conflict among groups of kids have given me if i had missed all those colorful and fascinating descriptions of smells, thoughts and what-do-i-know the book delivers?
if i had to tell someone “i haven’t read the book but i know how it ends”, i would surely receive an honestly empathic “that’s sad.”
and that would be right. i would have missed all the beautiful written pictures and moods. that would be sad, really sad.
and right: we still use the word “sad” with a note of empathy? not like some morange waiting to be twentyfived finally?
i see more “sad you missed something” than “how low is that” in Firannions comment.
anthony jordan,
Is this a sick joke?