Ian McShane was announced as a Game of Thrones cast member in August, and fans have been dying to know since then what role he’ll be playing in season 6.
We still don’t know what his character’s name will be, but thanks to a new interview, we do know at least something now about McShane’s part.
The actor was in Mexico to promote his film The Hollow Point at the Los Cabos International Film Festival and spoke with Pop Goes The News on Thursday.
(Remarks below the cut for SPOILERish quote from McShane!)
“I’ll give you one hint,” McShane told Pop Goes The News. “I am responsible for bringing somebody back that you think you’re never going to see again. I’ll leave it at that.”
He also says of his role, “[It’s] a one-off episode.”
That is one juicy hint. Fans have been widely speculating that McShane may be playing a role similar to Septon Meribald and the Elder Brother from A Feast for Crows. Both these characters are connected in a way to characters who could come back.
EVEN MORE SPOILERS, with book knowledge
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Bringing someone back that we thought was gone? Either the Hound or Lady Stoneheart. I’m more inclined to go with the Hound, given that Stoneheart seems less likely in general and Rory McCann was spotted in Belfast at a hotel used by the show frequently, by one of our sources in August. Michelle Fairley has been rumored to be in Belfast at various points over the last few months, but it’s remained unconfirmed and no one has spotted her on set. Stoneheart hype is eternal though.
What do you think, readers? Who is McShane referring to?
Thanks to WotW reader Miguel for bringing the article to our attention!
HODOR!
edit: Well, that felt amazing. I hadn’t hodor’d in quite some time.
edit again: YES! He’s bringing back Rory. I can feel it in my bones.
Bataclan!!
I went right to LSH.
Woah. Who is he bringing back. My hearts not set on the hound. But i like that idea. Michelle is definitely out.
Definitely something to do with the Hound.
Cleganebowl!
GET HYPE!
Hopefully the Hound. I hope LSH never makes it to the show.
CLEGANEBOWL CONFIRMED
#WHATISHYPEMAYNEVERDIE
Well, there we have it. No doubt about it. Sshhh! We must be quiet on this island!
My guess is he’s a mix of Elder Brother/Septin Merribald and is with the Hound. I’d love Stoneheart, but that ship has sailed…
So that pretty much confirms to me that he’s playing Septon Meribald, also taking the Elder Brother’s role, and that he’ll reintroduce us to the Hound!
ALL ABOARD!
I feel as though this refers more to LS than Hound though. A lot of show watchers probably thought the Hound survived his fight with Brienne tbh. However, they saw Catelyn die onscreen. Show fans would never think she would come back, in their mind she’s as dead as Robb is.
Kargaryen,
Yes. Sad to say it. But what purpose would the hound have now? And how’d they find him?
Let it be the Hound. Couldn’t care less about Stoneheart, I hope she’s gone for good.
Am i the one who thinks he is bringing jon back?
That’s a good news, very uplifting for me. I live in Paris and was at the Stade de France (stadium) during the bombing and attacks. 3 suicide attacks took place just outside the stadium : they attempted to get inside the stadium and kill us all but failed. It’s hard to see such violence in my city and so many deaths. I was able to get home not a long time ago, very very shocked by what I saw and heard.
Tomorrow I’m not leaving my apartment. I’m very very sad, but glad that a little GOT news was able to make me smile a little, again.
He is going to find Gendry in its Row-A-Ton from Drangonstone and bring him ashore.
Got to be the Hound. We mustn’t forget that for most of the viewing audience, the Hound is dead. They haven’t read the books with their hints o’doom and don’t follow forums like this. People will be astonished at the idea he is coming back.
For the most part, the only people who think the hound survived are book readers, since the show offers no hints about his fate. Plus, why would Ian’s character be bringing back Catelyn when we already have established characters for that role?
? HYPE
???????
lucas,
No your not lol. I was too afriad to say it. Idk why but that was my first thought. Guess melisandre still cant resurrect.
lucas,
Nope
Gd75,
I wish I knew what to say, but I don’t…
I’ll just leave it at I’m glad to hear you made it out safely, and please know so many people’s thoughts and hearts are with the people of Paris, their families, and their friends.
OMG!!! The Hound???? 😉
Gd75,
Stay strong. The whole world is with Paris tonight. I’m so sorry to hear you were there in the middle of it.
No question about it. My headcanon says it’s the bloody HOUND!
#gethype
Gd75,
*hugs* to you and your countrymen. Horrible news. My heart goes out to you all, and glad you are safe.
Gd75,
Hope you and your family/friends are well. Reste fort!
Gd75,
So sorry. Please stay safe. Know that the world is with you and with all of Paris tonight.
Ned?! 😛
Gd75
I am so sorry – please know that the people of the USA stand in solidarity with the people of Paris…
Jon.
Gd75,
Just horrible. So glad that you are safe. You and the people of Paris are in my heart and prayers.
This is either going to be the most amazing season of television of all time… or the most over-hyped and disappointing.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
PLEASEBERORYPLEASEBERORYPLEASEBERORYPLEASEBERORY!!!!!!!!!!
STONEHEART IS HERE!!!!!
Okay, am I the only person who clearly thinks he is Victarion? He even looks like Victarion for Pete’s sake…
Gd75,
It’s good to know you’re safe. Let’s hope this is the worst of it and Paris will be safe. NY stands with you.
Very obviously the Hound.
Probably the most interesting point is that he’s in one episode. That’s in line with my prediction that the Hound’s role this season is likely to be more of a cameo/setup for future seasons.
I also say the Hound. I just don’t see LSH happening.
Also, the reason they cast McShane in the role is that he’s going to deliver THE speech from the books. No other reason to cast such a big actor in a small role…season 6 cannot come soon enough…
Gd75,
hope u are ok
I refuse to believe it will be another Season 5.
Holy. Fuck. Season 6 gets better each week. I just cant wait anymore give me a trailer or official pic or poster OR WHATEVER I NEED IT.
Ian effing McShane!! I. Cannot. Wait. He’s going to make a great warrior-monk!
Thoughts and prayers for those in Paris tonight. <3
S6 to be amazing confirmed. So many familiar characters (Blackfish, Hound, Edmure) returning and so many great book characters finally coming to life (Euron, Meribald, Wyman Manderly, Arthur Dayne).
Newbietothegame,
Whether or not LSH was happening, why would McShane be behind it? They’ve already cast the key figures in that.
Gd75,
Glad you got out safely and please stay safe
JonCon? Bringing back Aegon/(f)Aegon, who in Westeros was never thought to be seen again, due to his death during the Sack of KL at the hands of the Mountain?
I just want to say how sorry I am for what happen in your city.
I had CNN,BBC,and France 24 watching, so sad and senseless.
GUYS! Benjin!
……OK, yeah, probably not. But I like the thought.
I hope he is referring to Kovarro, who I lost all hope I’d ever see again ?
Gd75,
Best wishes my friend. The hearts and minds of New Zealanders and Australians are with the people of Paris too. Kia kaha!
Josla,
At least Kovarro made it to Qarth. Aggo went South East in the Red Wastes and was never heard nor seen again.
Gotta be the Hound. Or Lady Stoneheart. Or maybe Lady Sandorheart? Ian McShane could do it all.
I am so sorry. Praying for you and all of Paris.
Gd75,
Sean C.,
Thoros has been obviously recast. It is known.
This sort of indiscriminate attack on one of the world’s greatest cities is an assault on humanity and history. Solidarity isn’t a choice right now, nor is it just a condolence; as a species we have to show that we are at our best when we come together in peace to thrive and build, and that violence and terror are petulance in the face of bravery and compassion. Stay strong, Paris. Stay strong, everyone.
[Pause to change gears…]
Assuming McShane is referring to the Hound, and banking on the various Riverlands reunions that have been speculated, is it too much to hope for a shot of Cersei’s face as Jaime, Brienne, Bronn, Ser Podrick, Arya, Gendry, and the Hound roll into King’s Landing together and announce themselves as Queensguard to Sansa, Queen of the North and the Riverlands? I mean, yes, absolutely too much to hope for, but…but…please?
Gd75
It’s hard to think of anything but Paris today. Stay safe.
Meribald/Hound seems most likely but I hope it’s something more surprising.
Season 5 wasn’t the most anything.
Gd75
Good the suicide bombers didn’t make it inside the stadium and good you made it out and home safely. I’ve been watching CNN all evening, horrific. Stay strong Paris, the USA stands with you.
Gd75,
I’m so happy you’re ok. What happened in Paris is beyond words. These people are monsters.
Canada, along with the world is praying for Paris. Our hearts go out to you. At least we still have great escapes such as the Game of Thrones to look forward to. My bet’s on the Hound, my friend. Several clues have pointed in that direction. Never did care for Cat – not as Stoneheart or as the mother. Loved the actress, though.
Gd75,
Gd75,
Gd75,
Gd75,
grailking,
Oh man please let it be
Wasn’t that “leaked script” just a bunch of supposition made from spoilers posted here at Watchers? And wasn’t it in fact totally fake?
*ponders assembling all the spoilers, writing a script based on it and posting it as a leak, then creating multiple identities to keep preaching about how real my leaked script is*
…
…
*decides that’s way too much effort to put into trolling and that it’s much more fun just to enjoy the real spoilers*
I am happy you made it home safe. I just heard about it because I was out tonight. It is horrific what just happened. All the love goes to France. I loved it when i visited the country. Paris is also beautiful. I am glad that you found this GoT news and were able to use it to feel better after a tragedy. You can start the healing process.
Now onto GoT, this is going to be so awesome. Cleagnebowl is coming to a television near you. Rory and Ian in the same scene together. Our tvs need to start preparing now because they need that time to get ready
Gd75,
So glad you are safe and made it back home OK. It’s absolutely shocking what’s happening in Paris right now.
The supposed leaked script had this bit pretty much spot on, if we assume he is indeed talking about the Hound, which is the most likely candidate. Like others have said above, we have established characters who can do the LSH bit if that even makes it into the season, which seems unlikely. Bringing back Jon would be my second guess, but I don’t see any character from casting calls that had the Wall characters/setting in its description. But damn is season 6 going to off the hook, i mean I really think this season will shatter all previous ratings/records by a mile (or something).
Gd75,
Iam happy u made it safe back to home…
As Someone who has been near to the attacks similar to this at Mumbai I can relate how u and ur city must be feeling …our prayers are for those in Paris ..
Be strong ..
Gd75,
My sympathies to you and the rest of your city.
Gd75,
Stay strong,FRANCE 🙁
GeekFurious,
Most bitched about maybe.
GeekFurious,
Well, that depends on who you ask. At the least it was probably the most surprising, for book readers anyway.
Gd75 take care of yourself and your family.
On to GOT, I have to agree with Sean C here. I think it will be the Hound and that he will reappear in the finale and then his story will continue in Season 7.
Of course if his story is going in the direction I expect it is, I have to start getting used to calling him Sandor.
Gd75,
So sorry for what you and your fellow countrymen and women are going through. Thank you for sharing your experience; you have community here you can lean on. I hope we all remember that the “easy” way forward is the way of blame, mistrust, and blind retribution. Let us all remember to dig deep and take the high road; remember that patience, compassion, and brotherhood should remain in focus on the road to healing and justice. Stay strong, amie.
As for this McShane news-
Meribald and the Hound! 🙂
Just watched Season 5 again…what an awesome Season! The final 3 episodes are pretty much some of the best the show has ever done! Lol even the SS did not seem that bad on rewatch. I watched Oberyn vs the Mountain again and can totally see why Ellaria was the way she was in Season 5. Bring on Season 6!!!
Gd75,
All our thoughts and prayers are with the people of Paris and rest of France. As someone who stays in a city that has seen multiple terror attacks, I can understand what you must be feeling. Stay strong.
As for the Ian McShane news, my vote goes to the Hound too.
Rickon Stark
Melisandre recast?
Valar Morghulis. In real life, religion and politics has a lot to answer for. So many deaths and for what real reason. I hope there are no more such things to come, but I believe that there will be many such attacks to come in all of Europe and other countries. Violence is the norm for this type of person. The majority of us are peaceful people who are totally unused to having to defend ourselves against such violence and they are taking advantage of our vulnerability. My condolences to all affected by these atrocities.
Darjan,
To be fair, the Hound’s return has been widely predicted for a long time, way before that “leaked script”. If we find out that the part about Hodor is true (surely not), then I’ll reconsider – otherwise, I’m calling bull on that whole thing.
Gd75,
Best wishes to France. Good to hear you are safe.
I found the video of French supporters singing the national anthem when leaving the stadium very moving.
Not to mention (haha) Daario as the “Son of the Harpy”.
Or… you know, whoever wrote that fake script read A Feast for Crows. The script hasn’t been right about anything that wasn’t on the books, reported as a spoiler by WOTW and other sites, or a common assumption / theory; and it has been wrong about a few too many things, too.
If he’s only in one episode, this means the Hound will do a cameo like “oh, he’s alive!” – cut for the next episode/season, or we’ll have EB/Meribald and then, the Hound start some sort of journey on his own?
Gd75 Désolée 🙁
Luka Nieto,
Can you provide the link to that leaked script
Gd75,
I’m so glad you are all right. When madness like this happens, it’s good to find out that there are (even unknown) people who had managed to arrive home safe. And I fully agree with you, GOT has the magical power to confort us when everything seems to crumble. Take care!
I hope he will bring back the Hound. Please, Rory, come back, I need a miracle right now!
I thought exactly the same thing. But I haven’t read the books, so this may be quite improbable.
Gd75,
I join my sentiments to those wishing sympathy.
My guess is an Elder Brother/Septon Meribald composite as many people have already said.
Hot Pie!!
GeekFurious,
There is no way in hell it will e disappointing, it could become overhyped, but too many things are going to happen. The northern battle alone is going to be epic no matter what, even ramsey and his 20 goodmen will not be enough to stop the epicness.
Gd75,
So sad for you and all Parisisns. You and your fellow countrymen are in our prayers! Viva la France!
TheMannis,
What I have noticed is that the show is much more fun to watch as a marathon. At this point you already know what will happen and don’t have to be so frustrated with slow episodes. It happened in season 4 for me when I first watched episode 9 (watchers on the wall) I didn’t really like it, because I cared more for the kings landing story, but after re-watching it later on it became my favorite from that season
Duh… He’s obviously talking about Doreah.
GET HYPE!
Gd75,
My heart and prayers went out to everyone as soon as I seen this las night, may God bless you and keep you safe!!!
Could s06 feature more ‘one-off’ episodes, or dedicated segments within one specific episode? I think the answer will be confirmed from the 1st episode.
While everyone’s going for fan-faves, including getting hyped for Cleganebowl, what about other characters who will be returning? Who has considered the following?
(1) I’d be tempted to think Ian’s character has been Rickon’s guardian. All that would need is a one-episode arc.
(2) With something ‘exciting’ happening at The Wall, who could make a surprise return there? Benjen, which could mean a variant of Coldhands delivers him to Castle Black. It feels like part of Coldhands’ arc, as a former member of NW, to help others not fall to the same fate.
(3) Where has Blackfish been hiding? Obviously where he’s effectively been able to vanish, which means someone’s sheltered him.
You could thumb through the pages of the book for more. If Syrio is connected to House of B&W, could Ian be playing another persona? That’s another resolution to a mystery from S01. Did Meryn kill him or not? Of course, Meryn will say he did that. Would he wish to face Cersei’s fury had he failed?
The best option is not to choose any character you wish Ian to be. Allow the surprise to reveal who he is when he appears. I think we’re in for an excellent episode because it’s all been quiet surrounding Ian’s role. If it’s got to this stage without leaks, does that confirm it’s going to be important and crucial?
Whatever it is, I’m more looking forward to this episode. Long may everyone remain vague, and hold cards close. No spoilers. No teases.
I don’t think #cleganebowl will happen until S7.
Gd75,
My deepest condolences to the families of the victims, all my support to France from Spain… Please take care!!!
Liberté, égalité, fraternité.
Wilber’s Forza Danza,
Here’s the thing though… McShane’s role also has interactions with the outlaw band which are believed to be operating in the river lands. The same river lands where the Hound was left for dead. The only other person you thought you’d never see again who isn’t confirmed to be dead is Blackfish.
I was so hoping Ian would play Euron Greyjoy. He said he’s ‘one and off’. Drat!
Darjan,
That “leaked summary” came out after we (and other websites) had already posted lots of spoilers and set reports. It’s also been wrong on several accounts. One of the reasons why I withhold some major spoilers that I’ve verified is so I know when some spoiler reports are false. Oh, and that leaked summary was supposed to be from a GoT employee’s facebook, only they spelled her name wrong in two places.
And yes, as people say, the Hound returning is not exactly a surprise. He’s pretty clearly not dead in the books so it stands to reason the show is taking the same route.
As for people’s guesses, the reason why I’m not even considering Jon is this other hint about Ian McShane’s character: http://watchersonthewall.com/major-new-spoilers-about-mcshane-and-more-in-season-6-game-of-thrones-plans-a-premiere-and-a-battle/
Gd75,
I’m so glad you are safe. My heart goes out to you and your country.
Plus, Euron was cast months ago.
http://watchersonthewall.com/sources-report-euron-cast-major-scene-filmed-today-in-ballintoy-harbour/
jayne,
We’ve known who will play Euron for months now… Pilou Asbæk.
Wilber’s Forza Danza,
We know Ian McShane’s character will interact with outlaw characters set in “the countryside” —most likely the Riverlands. As far as I am concerned, he’s so Septon Meribald / Elder Brother —and he’s bringing us the Hound back!
Gd75,
Toronto stands with you all.
Vigil today at Queen’s Park, 2pmEST.
One episode, one reason.
The dead guy everyone thought they’d never see again and he’s only only being brought back for one episode?
possible scene: He is bringing back a baby from a tower.
Eddard Stark.
Why you ask? muahahahaa. Read the books.
possible flashback scene: He is bringing back a baby from a tower.
It’s with:
Eddard Stark.
Sue the Fury,
Just to shut down the annoying claims about the veracity of that stupid leak, could you prove some minor stuff wrong? Don’t say what’s wrong with it (that is, don’t spoil us), just say “this, this and this is all wrong, and we know that for a fact thanks to our usual trusted sources”. I think that’d be helpful and could shut down the rumors once and for all, except for those who will simply disbelieve anything you say outright —but what can you do about those people…
Angelique,
The faith would, probably.
Luka Nieto,
Nothing will shut down these claims because the person/s who created the fake summary wants to keep spreading them. And some people want to believe no matter what. But I’m not going to reveal major plot turns and deaths just for a troll’s sake, which is basically what I’d have to do.
This. I’ve mentioned in another post I’m having a difficult time trying to convince my friend that leaked stuff is bs. I know only about minor stuff, like when they mention Qotho when we know he’s dead since season 1. But mostly what made me not believe in that script was the fact that it was filled with biased opinions about grey worm, missandei, jaime, bronn, etc.
Sue the Fury,
Ok then. It’s gonna be funny when some of those stuff don’t happen. Like what happened this year with a leaked script from S5. And they actually had even more events from the books to back up their bs than what they had for season 5, yet, they failed in many stories.
Kargaryen,
I wouldn’t worry too much about convincing people who don’t want to be convinced, when the fake Facebook post straight-up spelled the GoT staff member’s name wrong in the original post. Let them believe what they want (hey, some of it’s true since they got it from us) and they’ll be nicely surprised when season 6 rolls around.
Well, this news practically confirms SM/EB:)
My heart and prayers go out for the victims and their families, Viva la Francais!
FSU stands with Paris and her people.
Sullied by Knight,
He’s a one off character so does that fit?
Yeah, Ian McShane is a combination of Septon Meribald/Elder Brother. He has a run-in with the Riverlands outlaws as previously mentioned, and he’s responsible for “bringing back” Sandor Clegane. I don’t even think it’s a question at this point; it seems like the only obvious option. Plus, I think he’ll be great in that role.
The bigger question for me
I forgot about the possible BwB connection…whoa…could Beric and Thoros be involved as well? 🙂 (jk!) Hmmm…will our favorite dog remain in the riverlands, head north or head south?
Bookreader,
You are wrong. He is bringing back the hound.
You joke, but the outlaw band sure sounds like what’s left of the Brotherhood, though it has obviously degenerated into something completely different. I don’t think we’ll see their former leaders at all, but they may be mentioned, if this outlaw group is in fact associated in anyway with the BWB we saw back in season three. If not, then there’s not even any reason to mention them. Honestly, one of the main reasons I think we’ll never see Beric or Thoros is that Arya magically got them off her list in season five. The only ones left were Cersei, the Mountain, Walder Frey (and she’s going to the Riverlands soon, so…), and Meryn Trant (who she took care of by the end of the season).
Good question. It depends on where they want to go with the character. Is a relationship (of any sort, a non-romantic, non-creepy sort hopefully) with Sansa in the future for the character? Then he’s surely heading North. If confronting his past is the future for his character, then it means he must go South. If it’s all about ending the conflict inside him once and for all, basically leaving it where AFFC with Brienne and the Elder Brother left it but more explicitly, as a send-off to the character (“The Hound is dead, Sandor Clegane is at peace”, and all that), then I doubt he’s going anywhere.
Anguissette1979,
I agree. I think whoever fights RS in Cersei’s trial will lose (and lose in a gruesome and horrific way). That’s why I don’t want Cleganebowl yet. It could happen further down the line, though.
Luka Nieto,
Hmmm….I hadn’t even thought about this in terms of “the list.” Interesting. I wonder if this “quiet isle” scene will take place near the beginning or end of the season? Regardless of various hype scenarios with the Hound, I’ve always thought he will have another run-in with a Stark, perhaps with tables turned. That goes for Gendry as well. Fun possibilities!
Ian McShane really knows how to set the hounds of speculation running…. I also go with Sandor Clegane as the most likely option and that McShane will play either Septon Merribald, Elder Brother or a composite of the two. However, in the interests of continued speculation there are some (admittedly unlikely) alternates to consider:
1. McShane’s character has been involved in hiding Rickon Stark, probably at The Last Hearth, and is playing an older member of house Umber.
2. The character that McShane is involved in bringing back is either the Blackfish or Edmure Tully; which would tie in with speculation which has him as a member of the BwB who leads a rescue attempt of the Red Wedding hostages when they are moved from The Twins to Kings Landing. We know that the Blackfish will appear in S6 and that Edmure Tully is still alive.
3. McShane is playing a wildling leader who we’ve not met yet and the character that he will bring back is Benjen Stark. (This is the most unlikely of the three alternates).
Athelstan,
We know that already he will be somewhere at the Riverlands with the Brotherhood.
kit_hepburn,
I think it will. Jaime only gets there very late in the season, so he won’t have the time for it. Come to think of it, maybe Brienne and the outlaw band and Meribald are all connected to what’s happening at Riverrun? Or are Meribald and the outlaws just worldbuilding (or filler, whatever you’d call it)?
I hope he say his speech and bring the hound back.
Even if is only in one episode.
It’s not Septon Meribald. And the character who is coming back is not the Hound, LSH or Gendry.
Anyone who does not want to be majorly spoiled for the next season and the books should probably not read this post.
It’s really [spoilers]Maester Marwyn as a rough, plain-speaking, dirty version of the Gandalf archetype.[/spoilers] And the character who McShane says “I am responsible for bringing somebody back that you think you’re never going to see again,” is really [spoilers]Rhaegar Targaryen. He is going to be revealed as the true identity of Jaqen and the reason why the show and books have spent so much time dwelling on Braavos, the Faceless Men and namedropping Rhaegar.
Maybe R+L does equal J. But it is probably not important. Martin has confirmed that the second dance of dragons is going to be the subject of a book. I do not think that Young Griff has the character depth required to be the leader of the side that opposes Daenerys, in the same way that Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon or Euron Greyjoy all have depth and charisma. I also don’t think Jon is likely to fight either Young Griff or Dany for the throne, and in the first DOD the Starks came late to the conflict. I think the most likely, most ironic option is if Daenerys has to fight the brother she has idolized for so long. And in the process the fabled knight Rhaegar who everyone loves in memory may not prove to be completely perfect.
The amount of time spent in flashbacks in the book with Jaime, Cersei and JonCon all thinking about Rhaegar is definitely going somewhere, as are all the ironic hints about Rhaegar returning (Dany telling Rhaego “You are the true dragon” when he is in her womb whilst holding Rhaegal’s egg, Tyrion saying “At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead” unprompted at a military council in AGOT when it has no bearing on Tywin’s past or present, Jorah Mormont saying long-winded that “Rhaegar died” and in the same book being proved as a long-time liar.)
The biggest proof that Rhaegar is still alive is the comments which Martin continually makes about Aragorn, critcisms about how perfect Aragorn is portrayed in LOTR. When you compare Jaqen in Book 4 to Aragorn when we first meet in him LOTR, we see a lot of interesting parallels. We see 2 characters called Sam who do not trust the disguised heirs to the throne. We see 2 characters who are very closely linked to song and prophecy. Rhaegar is obvious for both of these, Aragorn sings several songs throughout LOTR and is also the subject of the famous “All that is gold does not glitter” prophecy. And the last piece of evidence, the ‘killer blow’ for this theory is the following quote from Barliman Butterbur in the LOTR chapter called ‘Strider’:
“The story of that Mr Bilbo’s going off has been heard before tonight in Bree. Even our Nob has been doing some guessing in his slow pate; and there are others in Bree quicker in the uptake than he is.”
PATE – the same word that Jaqen is disguised as at the Citadel. The Citadel being extremely like Oxford University. Oldtown and the Hightower being very like Minas Tirith and the White Tower, where Aragorn was known to go in disguise. And the glass candles in Oldtown? They symbolise the palantir which was again hidden in Minas Tirith.
Also note how Martin uses the name.
“I’m Pate,” the other said, “like the pig boy.”
(As we know from Book 4’s first chapter:
“Spotted Pate the pig boy was the hero of a thousand ribald stories: a good-hearted, empty-headed lout who always managed to best the fat lordlings, haughty knights, and pompous septons who beset him. Somehow his stupidity would turn out to have been a sort of uncouth cunning; the tales always ended with Spotted Pate sitting on a lord’s high seat or bedding some knight’s daughter. But those were stories. In the real world pig boys never fared so well.”
Therefore Martin is winking at us telling us through Jaqen’s identification as ‘the pig boy’ that the assassin is similar to a fairytale character.)
My guess? Luke Roberts is an actor we know has been cast in Game of Thrones. A look at his Imdb page says he has previously played Dracula and he has fairly noble ‘prince-like’ features. As here are many flashbacks we know that are going to happen in this season including a tower of Joy battle and some scenes with young Starks at Winterfell, I imagine there will be a scene with Rhaegar (and perhaps Lyanna) in the past, and the audience will believe that will be it. Then the Faceless Man at the Citadel will make the reveal. This later reveal would explain why we never had Rhaegar cast for season 2 for the House of the Undying visions.[/spoilers]
If you read this and think the books and TV show are now spoilt, don’t worry, there’s other stuff I’ve noticed that I’m not going to say anything about. But the assumption that even the TV show is going boil things down to a clear “good guys vs the White Walkers” ending needs to questioned. I think this is the most likely subversion that we are going to see.
If anyone can tell me why the spoilers brackets didn’t work I would be very grateful.
My bet? JOFFREY! jk
I think Stoneheart would be amazing but highly unlikely .. though with Walder Frey returning, it would be pretty awesome for her to exact some Stark revenge!
Mon coeur est à toi, Paris! Yes Please oui Monsieur Clegane ‘The Hound’, s’il vous plaît pas de cœur de pierre… One who gleefully awaits CleganeBowl!
it’s definatly the Hound
it’s bracket spoiler closed bracket NO spaces between spoiler and brackets, your text, bracket /spoiler,closed bracket again no spaces within brackets and it’s spoiler NOT spoilers.
[spoilers]test[/spoilers]
Joe Blackfyre,
Don’t worry about the spoiler brackets because all you said was bullshit.
grailking,
Thanks.
.
Phil Necro, maybe it’s wrong. I don’t think it’s bullshit though. The article is asking to guess who the character McShane is playing, and who he is going to introduce. I’ve provided my take on that.
If it’s bullshit, you can clearly provide another reason for all that book foreshadowing right? The TV show is likely to be very different from the book anyway, but if you don’t think something makes sense then it would be nice to hear your reasons.
Joe Blackfyre,
*passes shiny, crinkly hat*
Here mate, you forgot this.
well in the case if he wants something to truly be hidden he still needs the proper form.
There might be a lot of individuals thinking that, but the vast majority of viewers would not be doing that. The Hound was a dead man talking at that point.
(On another note, I think the “sighting” of Michelle Fairley at a coffee shop in Belfast a while back was probably fake. The guy who tweeted it seems to be friends with a loony who has tweeted literally the entire cast and crew of GoT asking if Lady Stoneheart would be in, and purportedly asked some people to pretend they’d seen MF in Belfast to generate false hype.)
kit_hepburn,
It almost has to be. Unless the show does something it never does – except the prologue of the first season, I guess?, were there any other such scenes? – and has a couple of scenes without any ‘leading’ character to bring us up to date with what’s been happening in the Riverlands in the meantime.
Joe Blackfyre,
Wow, you’ve just topped the “Howland Reed is the High Sparrow” conspiracy! 😉
At any rate, McShane’s words are that his character is bringing back a character that the viewers do not expect to see again. Rhaegar cannot be brought back as he has not been on the show. The Hound, on the other hand, is a character who the viewers have seen (and thus can be brought back) and that the viewers are not expecting to see alive again. Catelyn also is such a character. (I’m leaning towards the Hound, as I can envision him being more relevant to the overall story than I can envision LSH being.)
Gd75,
Our prayers are with you and other Parisians. Remain Stannis, i.e. strong and steadfast
Gd75,
Oh…I think most viewers expect to see the Hound again, but that doesn’t mean McShane didn’t mean the Hound.
TV viewers are not total chumps. Most have watched enough TV to know that dead doesn’t mean dead on a show unless you see the body burned. After the fight with Brienne, we ended with Clegane still alive. That means there’s hope that he survived. And hell, if you’ve ever watched a soap opera, even dead and buried doesn’t necessarily mean dead on TV. People are always not as dead as you think they are. It’s pretty standard trope.
That doesn’t mean the publicity machine is going to acknowledge that. It’s all, “a thousand shows have brought back characters that the viewer was supposed to think was dead, but when WE do that exact same thing, it’s going to be a TOTAL SHOCK.”
I mean, there’s still a debate on whether on not Stannis survived.
The only “dead” character that I really think people would be completely shocked to see brought back would be Ned Stark. And hell, anyone whose ever watched a soap opera could see how that might happen. “Varys replaced the real Ned with his secret twin brother, Fred Stark. That’s who got beheaded. Varys has kept Ned safe in the Red Keep for years!”
So, you can’t put much stock in an actor’s statement on who viewers don’t expect to see return. Actors are out there giving sound bites to sell their product, the show. And McShane is clearly doing a very good job.
Almost certainly not. After all, this type of series aims to tell a story over an entire season. “Stand alones” only work when each episode is telling it’s own story.
Laura,
I doubt that Melisandre needs mentors or tutors. Both the show and the books imply that she is exceptional among the Red Priests. I think that people confuse her drawing wrong conclusions from her visions with her not seeing visions well. I think it much more plausible that the visions simply are vague images, and that the true talent is being able to see them in the first place. That is typical of “seers” in stories: everything they see is going to happen, but what they see is very general, and the specifics usually are different from what characters guess they will be.
It is Forel people.
It is known.
In the vast majority of shows, apparently killed characters stay dead. Moreover, remember how we last see the Hound: he is begging Arya for death. Arya is the main character in all of those scenes: and that was all about her love/hate relationship with the Hound. For the story’s purposes, he has to die off screen: we needed to see Arya walk away from him, both unwilling and unable to grant him a merciful death.
So, no: most of the viewers are not expecting to see the Hound return. Hardcore fans probably are: but those always are a small proportion of viewers.
Wimsey,
Nah…not really. Rarely is a “brought back to life” character seen a huge shock. That ship sailed when Bobby Ewing stepped out of the shower.
Viewers are simply not the ignorant lumps people pretend they are. But it’s more fun to pretend that they are so we can all feel superior that we “predicted so and so wasn’t dead.” There is nothing like the satisfaction of a well-deserved “I told you so.”
HotPinkLipstick,
People not expecting the Hound to be back, are not stupid or ignorant.
They are simply not hardcore fans, like us.
They don’t know the theories about the Hound.
They don’t know that the actor was seen in belfast.
That does not make them stupid or ignorant, it’s just that, unlike us, they don’t hunt every bit of info about GOT. Most likely they don’t even think about GOT, in the off-season.
This is 90% of people who watch the show, any show and movie, not only this one.
So for them, who have last seen the Hound screaming for death, his return will be a suprise.
oh wow, only one episode? I hope it’ll be memorable, like Karsi last season.
Do we know which episode or at least if it’s first half/second half of the season?
Not sure about ‘most’ viewers – I have a number of show-only friends and co-workers who have said that they hope he comes back. Perhaps not ‘expecting’ him to, but certainly haven’t written him off.
Here’s where your theory goes off the rails. For one thing, Rhaegar the thoughtful, musical, warrior prince surviving would make him exactly the kind of Maragorn Sue that GRRM regularly kills in the crib.
But way more faulty is the assumption that allusions equal allegory. No matter how many references GRRM drops, on page or in interviews, he’s not obliged to make his story mirror anyone else’s. It is, in fact, a hallmark of his storytelling that he stays away from fictional tropes and constantly asks himself “What would really happen here?”
This lack of contrivance means that Occam’s Razor is particularly useful in trying to predict where the plot is going. The theory that Rhaegar is alive should, in the face of this, be called Occam’s Warhammer.
“Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died…” is possibly the most poignantly thematic quote in the entire story. Rhaegar being alive would blow it apart.
Mihnea,
Really, no. GoT, show only people, pretty much populate my career-field. After the Hound’s death, the mantra was “The Hound isn’t dead. No way. We didn’t see him die.” And they know nothing about the books or any of the theories, and actually they look to me for answers. And I lie to them mostly, because it amuses me.
People who watch GoT have watched TV before. They have seen the “brought back when they thought someone was dead” trope many, many times before. So they don’t fall for it.
I’m not saying that people who think the Hound is dead are stupid. I honestly don’t know anyone who thinks the Hound IS dead. I really don’t think they exist except in the minds of journalists who are preparing to write a story about how viewers were shocked by the return of the Hound. Because it’s a good story to say people are shocked, even when they aren’t.
Just say that: if it is not about the Hound, I’ll be very disappointed.
Everytime Sue here or Javi from Los Sietes de Reinos say they know what happens in episode 10 in Riverlands and then can’t tell…inside me i go like please please tell me who dies and i will shut up for the next year… then i realise they will not let this slip from them and i will have to wait till June or July 2016 to find out…. #lifeisunfair. 🙂
Maggie,
Javi from Los siete Reinos hinted that Arya kills Jaime in S.610.
Maggie,
LOL! Same. “Neener neener, I know something you don’t!” (which is obviously not what they say, but I still scream internally and hope some unscrupulous individual will leak it anyway). But then, I read the last page of books first. 😉
And yet the vast majority of characters that die on television series stay dead. Sure, you’ll always get the conspiracy nuts: but most viewers are not hardcore fans of anything, never mind any one particular show.
Except that people will be surprised. Remember, the vast majority of the viewers have not thought about the Hound since they saw him die. They think about what is in front of them on the show. But people (and particularly the core audience of shows like Thrones) are far too busy to waste too much time thinking about these things. After all, think of how many reports, cases, projects, etc., most of these people have done since June of 2014: and they will do nearly as many more by May of 2016. Oh, they will remember who the Hound is when he returns: but they will be surprised because they haven’t thought about him in nearly 2 years.
Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle or Aerys II in a flashback where Jamie becomes KingSlayer.
Shame about the small time part he will be playing, he is one hell of an actor and coud contribute to the show much more as some northern lord …
Elder Brother whobrings the Hound back or Aerys II flashback when Jamie becomes Kingslayer.
Double posted for some weird reason.
Wimsey,
Sure in that, “Damn, took them look enough to bring him back” way. Not in the, “Wow, I really thought he was dead” way.
It’s just an well-worn trope. It’s still a good trope and it’ll be fun, but it won’t be a big shock or surprise. People just aren’t that gullible when it comes to TV shows anymore. Especially not a show like GoT which killed the hero (Ned), butchered the next hero in line (Robb) and killed the next hero (Jon) and so on. A dead tertiary character not being dead is par for the course.
Look, I get that the “I knew it was coming” knowledge is fun and all, and believe me, I enjoyed it a ton with my show only friends, but this one, the return of the Hound, is not even slightly unpredictable. How it’s going to happen (same with Jon) is the interesting bit, not the if.
But go on banging that drum. Enjoy yourself. Have at. Don’t let me spoil your party.
off: I write this just for the ”leaked scripts true or false” thema. 😀
The Vale’s army with Petyr and probably Royce too will be at the battle of the North. The series confirmed it, so that’s not a spoiler.
Watch it from 4:15
Another truth from the leaked script.
First–
Cher(e) Gd75,Reste fort. I do hope your friends and family and their friends and families are all right. The UK, the US, and all the civilised world are with France at this heart-wrenching and traumatic moment. Although political and material support will surely be forthcoming, right now the world’s symbolic support must suffice. I read that today, before conducting Tosca at the Metropolitan Opera, the very Spanish Placido Domingo had the lyrics of La Marseillaise distributed to the audience. The sang while the orchestra played that blazing, defiant anthem known to the world. A ce moment, nous sommes tout les Parisiens.
I’ve been hoping against hope for LSH, but based on Sue’s hint, with McShane in the Riverlands, it’s even more likely to be Blackfish, who had to be hiding somewhere and with someone these last two years. As several here have noted, there are many known characters who could re-introduce LSH. Show-only viewers will be surprised, but not necessarily because they think Blackfish is dead–they’ve probably forgotten he ever existed. If it is him, I expect that when he appears, most viewers won’t remember who he is for a few minutes.
Kudos to you for connecting the faceless man mystique to “Strider” and other LotR concepts. I’m sure GRRM did that as an homage, or he lost another bet and had to insert an LotR reference into the tale. I’m a great fan of underground offbeat theories for this series, but let’s keep the culture of the faceless men intact. They have no long-term agenda, although they may have reason to observe and possibly manipulate selected events. They are short-term specialists and collectors/executors of the dead. These “no men” are the fly in the ointment for other’s agendas.
Although to give your idea some credence, I wonder if they have ever collected a Targ facade for possible uses in the future… Hmmmm…. 🙂
On the other hand, viewers sophisticated about the “brought back” trope may wish, in certain cases such as with the Hound, that it be utilized. Yeah, bring the f**ker back!
**********************************
Keep strong Paris! Don’t let the terrorists pull the joy of living out of you or your nation. They don’t like the way the rest of the world lives and behaves? Fuck ’em, they’re trash.
No, this message isn’t as solemn and formal as I might have made it. I’m outraged over what’s happened, and outrage over such atrocities doesn’t call for formality, it calls for spirited outcry. Messy, live, wondrous spirited refusal to be made afraid or timid in our denouncement of such heinous acts.
Joe Blackfyre,
Yea…There is literally 0% chance Rhaegar is alive. There is a better chance Lyanna is alive…and in fact she isn’t.
Matt,
Source? Where’d you read that?
Doesn’t Michelle Fairley live in Belfast? Maybe I’m wrong, but I thought she did…
Source? This is rather important…i am gonna have to hate Arya now :-/
If Javi says so…..then i learned who dies and i will have to shut up now, i think if it is true Sue will not directly admit it… i guess letting it here means something..
Huge turn off though….
Eh, I hadn’t heard that at all, but if that is really true, then I would suspect either that
1) LSH hype is real, and either Jaime or Brienne bite the dust…OR
2) Arya kills Walder Frey. OR
3) Arya reunites with Nymeria OR
4) Arya reunites with the Hound
Oh no… I don’t want to have to hate Arya… 🙁
George, London
Matt,
Yeah, I’m going to need a link to whatever comment you’re getting this impression from so I can discount it as speculation based on a) the fact that Arya is supposed to be in the Riverlands (though right now we have no indication that she and Jaime are anywhere near each other), and b) the fact that Jaime is going to be “somewhere else” Episode 10. Those two things alone do not equal “Arya murders Jaime” to me.
Seriously people, if you’re going to start a rumour like this can you at least link back to whatever comment you’re referring to? Otherwise it’s just random speculation posted as a factual spoiler.
Maggie,
His twitter feed. He didn’t say it outright, but he said Jaime and Arya meet in the finale and that it would have “fatal” consequences – and that it would be hugely controversial with the fans.
Maggie,
That may finish my interest in the show if it happens. Not sure why/how(he’s no Meryn Trant) she would and would leave a lot unresolved for Jaime as a character as I doubt they’re going to reunite him with Cersei before then. I sense Jaime will die before all is said and done but not as a victim of Arya would be an exceedingly lame way to go out.
kit_hepburn,
Feel free to ask him yourself. He has mentioned the controversial Riverlands ending plenty of times on both his twitter and his site.
George,
I think she did at one point. No clue if she currently does.
Laura,
I don’t know, I’m hopeful but I’m kind of looking at it as a “wait and see” sort of thing. I do agree that it seems likelier this season than in previous seasons. If we get through the entirety of Jaime and Brienne’s Riverlands storyline with no appearance or mention of LSH, I think it’ll be safe to assume she’s cut. Until then I’ll reserve judgement.
Maybe Brienne gets involved as well, and SHE’S the one who dies…?
I mean I love Brienne, but I’d rather she die than Jaime…
Big Mac,
It’s possible. As I said, he didn’t explicitly say Arya kills Jaime, but that’s the distinct impression I got.
Matt,
I just looked at his twitter account. Can’t see anything about the Riverlands/Arya/Jaime but I’ll admit I didn’t try very hard – got bored scrolling through the screeds of tweets. The only thing I can establish for sure from my glance at the feed is that he is obsessed Natalie Dormer.
Big Mac,
Agreed. I’m not sure what else she offers to the story moving forward compared to Jaime. Can see Bronn potentially getting it too. Why do all the good characters have to die?! Dull old Sansa and Dany should be getting some death soon hopefully! 😛
You have to wade through whole pages of political rants, which is why I won’t even bother to look for it. But there is a specific tweet mentioning the last scene for Daeny and Tyrion and Jaime and Arya.
I also tried to find whatever it was being referred to and couldn’t.
However, I’m guessing this is a case of the telephone game. Here is how something like this could likely become a rumour – someone says the following generic statement:
“Arya and Jaime will both return to the Riverlands during Season 6. There will be fatal consequences.”
We know Jaime returns to Riverrun. There has been no indication of Arya going there. My likeliest guess (a guess, mind you) is that this means Arya goes somewhere else in the Riverlands. The Twins perhaps? Arya going to the Twins could most assuredly have fatal, controversial consequences (cause you know, last time I checked, that’s where a certain Walder Frey on her “list” was last seen) Accompanied with that, we have the tidbit that Jaime will go “somewhere else” Episode 10. However, we have thus far had absolutely no confirmation as where that somewhere else is, or if it is the same location as Arya. I don’t think it is. I don’t even think there’s been any indication of NCW and Maisie Williams filming at the same time/locations.
Likely someone has heard the two separate rumours, that a) Arya and Jaime are both returning to the Riverlands, and b) there will be fatal, dramatic, controversial consequences for one or both of them, and assumed that meant “together.” Which is probably a total error.
TheTouchOfFrost,
I have a weird feeling in my gut that Bronn is going to bite it. Not sure why, I just do.
If that is all he said you could also pose the possibility that Jaime kills Arya? I mean, that TRULY would be hugely controversial with the fans…since I’m assuming most people think Jaime is going to die before the series ends?
kit_hepburn,
Maisie and Nikolaj were both filming at the same time this week…. there’s the picture of Nikolaj on a plane to Belfast and plenty of pics with Maisie (with Isaac and others). Of course that doesn’t mean that they are shooting the same scenes, but they definitely were there at the same time.
Being a sceptic, I doubt Arya would kill Jaime. Jaime wasn’t even on her kill list, so unless he’s about to kill her she’s unlikely to go after him of her own volition. Or maybe she learns it was Jaime who sent Bran flying and exacts revenge–but how would she learn that fact? Granted, Cersei IS on her kill list, but hurting Cersei via killing Jaime–that’s not the way Arya thinks. But one never knows…
IF Arya does kill Jaime, I suspect it would be ‘on contract’ as a Faceless Man. Should someone order a hit on Jaime, Jaquen would most likely give her the assignment. And who would commission such a deed–Cersei if she thinks she’s romantically betrayed by her brother, Littlefinger for his own obscure reasons–removing a possible obstacle would suit him just fine. My favourite scenario is that Jaime exerts terrible revenge on Dorne for the death of Myrcella and Doran or Trystane order the hit.
George,
True (though I’d say it’s unlikely), or it could be the death of a third party like Brienne IF she is part of that scene.
I searched the Twitter back to June and nothing.
NCW and MW were in Girona at the same time and a ton of the cast has been in Belfast, though while Maisie is still there, I’m pretty sure Nikolaj is back in Denmark.
And wasn’t the word that Jaime is somewhere OTHER than the Riverlands by S6E10? So Arya couldn’t kill him there in E10 if he is somewhere else.
And narratively, Jaime has to meet Tyrion again before he dies. That’s been set up pretty clearly.
http://lossietereinos.com/noticias-desde-girona-irlanda-e-islandia-teatros-mendigos-asambleas-y-retornos/
Go to the bottom of the article, Javi mentions Nikolaj shooting in Iceland for Riverlands scenes, and then says Maisie Williams is also expected to shoot in Iceland. And there’s also the fact the Jaime and Arya in the Riverlands rumors surfaced on the same day (both here and in L7R). If I find more of his comments on the matter I’ll post them here.
And nothing in that equates to a rumor of Arya killing Jaime. I mean, holy crap, two actors filmed in the same location, not even at the same time! Shocking!
Emilia Clarke filmed in Belfast. David Bradley filmed in Belfast. Walder kills Daeny! #CONFIRMED!! #GETHYPE!!!!!!!!
Freakin’ CALLED IT. Can’t wait to hear McShane nail the Broken Man monologue.
Also, Arya killing Jaime is stupid and anticlimactic. I don’t believe it and would be pretty upset if it turned out to be true.
HotPinkLipstick,
The Iceland shoot was for a specific location and not many actors went there, so yes, that is telling. It also means Jaime is going more places in the Riverlands than just Riverrun. And nothing indicates they shot at different times.
And no, his comments about the controversial ending are not from that article.
If its jon, i think he shount have said that, its just too obvious
Matt,
Give it up, Matt. If there had been real spoiler hinting at that, it would have been translated, re-translated, parsed, discussed, speculated upon, and picked apart for days.
Matt,
Count me as another who would like a link, otherwise it just sounds like your own speculation.
toothbrush,
Although to be fair, I’ve had that feeling for the past three seasons! He’s done well to make it this far! Thought he was a goner for sure last season!
HotPinkLipstick,
I understand that you’re paranoid, but I’m not making it up. I don’t have an investment in either of these characters.
https://twitter.com/javimgol/status/641625614907277313
This is the tweet where he claims to know the end scenes for Jaime Arya Dany and Tyrion. But these are not 4 scenes but 2: Dany and Tyrion will be in the same place, and everything suggests Jaime and Arya will be in the same general area (unless you think Jaime goes to Winterfell or something like that). I’ll keep looking for the “controversy” tweets.
Matt,
There’s no reason for you to get all defensive about things. You just need to look at things logically and stop being so emotional.
You’ve made a conclusion based on flimsy evidence and your attempts to back it up are adorable.
I’m just going to sit back and watch now. 🙂
HotPinkLipstick,
Yeah, so far I see nothing which even remotely indicates a hint of Arya killing Jaime. I think I’ll just sit back and watch with you. Shall I pop some popcorn?
HotPinkLipstick,
I’ll admit it, you made me laugh 😉
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Popcorn is good. Beer and pretzels is better!
Matt,
I’m going to go ahead and believe that your intentions are good, and that you genuinely thought that’s what the information was telling you. However, I think you are parsing together facts incorrectly.
What we know:
– Jaime is returning to the Riverlands, specifically Riverrun.
– Nikolaj was likely filming in Iceland as evidenced by twitter reports sometime at the end of August.
– It was later confirmed by this site that Arya was also returning to the Riverlands.
– That Spanish site also reports thereafter that Arya was going to the Riverlands and indicates that Maisie was also going to film (?) in Iceland (though this is the first and only time I’ve heard of this – one doesn’t necessarily need to film in Iceland to return to the Riverlands… nor do she and Nikolaj need to be in the same scene if they were both filming there).
– Javi seems to be saying that he may have (?) gotten a hint as to the final frames (maybe from a look at storyboards) of Arya, Jaime, Daenerys, and Tyrion. I see no indication that means any of those actors are together in the same scenes (though we can assume that maybe Daenerys and Tyrion are, though not necessarily).
– Jaime goes “other places” aside from Riverrun in Episode 10.
I don’t yet see any evidence of what you were suggesting originally (that Arya kills Jaime). I just see evidence of things that we already knew.
HotPinkLipstick,
The only problem with beer and pretzels is this gif would then make little sense:
http://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/popcorn.gif
🙂
kit_hepburn,
You, m’am, are a scholar and a gentleman.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
That gif is all things amazing.
Joe Blackfyre,
Phil Necro called it bullshit because you declared your speculation to be “spoilers.” Unless you’re a writer for the show, your speculation is no better or worse than anyone else’s. We’re all just guess and giving our opinions here.
kit_hepburn,
Thank you for putting all of that together. I was sitting here trying to remember what we knew, and I couldn’t come up with even half of that.
HotPinkLipstick,
I’m a fan of popcorn gifs, and that is one of my favorites. I didn’t realize, however, the link I found to it was a link to this site. Bonus!
lucas,
jon jon jon jon jon jon jon
So, if it is Sandor, what is he doing with that outlaw band?
And if that is true, then it could describe many, many things. If, for example, Jaime helps to kill Walder Frey, then that would be controversial with some fans: a Stark should do that. Remember, Joffery dying because of someone other than a Stark was “controversial”: he was “supposed” to die by having Robb Stark cut off his (Joffery’s) head after uttering the words “he who passes judgement should swing the blade.” (And then Daeny was going to run into Robb’s arms and surrender her dragons and throne to Robb, and the series would end.)
Here is a big thing to remember: what is “controversial” to fans often is not remotely controversial to the vast majority of the readers/viewers.
And here is an even bigger thing to remember: logical fallacy. Jaime and Arya meeting in the finale and something “controversial” happening can point to dozens of things. Maybe people will guess it correctly: that has happened before. However, it does not point to any one conclusion over any others. (Hell, maybe Arya will pull out a Cersei mask and seduce Jaime: that would certainly cause some controversy! 😀 )
Well, we cannot say that it would be a “lame” way for Jaime to go out. After all, what is lame about being killed by someone trained by the Faceless Assassins? And it’s not like there is not a lot of bad blood between the Starks and the Lannisters.
Still, based on what the books have, Arya is not going to be the woman to kill Jaime.
Tweets from that guy while mentioning Jaime:
https://twitter.com/search?q=Jaime%20from%3Ajavimgol&src=typd
I hope that doesn’t happen to Jaime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sjZHxEZnmE
Wimsey,
I suspect TouchOfFrost means lame in the same way that he thought Brienne defeating the Hound and Brienne killing Stannis was “lame”. Which means he didn’t think the character would have had the skill to defeat/kill them and that D&D are purposely making her better on the show than she was in the books and that’s a bad thing for…..reasons.
Dame Pasty,
I think it would be lame simply because it crushes all my hopes for LSH, again.
Dame Pasty,
Well, the hanging ellipse make it all clear!
If the character is based on Meribald, he is an itinerant septon, so his encounter with the outlaw band and his presence at whatever place is standing in for the Quiet Isle would likely be two entirely separate scenes. The ‘broken man’ speech will probably be delivered in transit.
Ned Stark?? Because I literally think I won’t see him again…
Wimsey,
Well it would be lame as Arya is hardly a competent assassin yet as she’s not had enough training and it looks like she runs off next season before she does but that’s by the by. There has been zero build up or purpose for the two’s interaction and trying to squash that in when Arya doesn’t get to the RL until late in the season and Jaime isn’t there all of it either is daft. Two of the main characters having such interaction deserves much more of a set up than bumping into eachother in an episode. Plus killing either of them off when they have much more interesting and relevant potential in the story is just plain stupid.
Dame Pasty,
I thought that was lame as it made no sense in regard to Brienne’s story. Being rejected by Arya ended 50% of her purpose (soon to be 100% after Sansa did the same). This leads to Brienne wandering around aimlessly ( even more so than the books) last season. Her amped up fighting ability , for me, detracts from the more endearing things about the character in that she doesn’t give up despite the odds. Having her as wonder woman lessens that characteristic as it’s a lot easier to not give up when you’re winning all the time! The scrappier, more naive Brienne from the books is a much more interesting prospect than the robotic, lack-of-purpose Brienne in the show.
Apparently , if I dislike changes it has to be for…reasons?
So… I guess you completely missed that that was the point of her story? In the books, too. As for her improved fighting abilities, I haven’t heard you complain about the similar changes made to many, many men in the show. Shocker.
No-one really responded to my question: “why are all these textual allusions there in a book which took 5 years to come out?” (A Feast for Crows.) I don’t think it’s a coincidence, Martin must write everything deliberately. So whilst I’m waiting for a clear alternative as to why all this foreshadowing has been placed in a series which we know has foreshadowing linked to secrets i.e. Red Wedding hints, R+L=J hints… some more thoughts for everyone to ponder. All will be behind spoiler text this time.
It also makes sense from a character perspective consistantly speaking. If Rhaegar thought having a child with Lyanna was important enough to run away with and spark a civil war for, why did he then go back to fight in the civil war when she was nearing childbirth? Especially when his mother had lost lots of children during childbirth and his first wife was a very frail and delicate woman, surely he would know there was a good chance that the young Lyanna would die in childbirth? I think the fact we are not shown the Tower of Joy scene in full in the books is a sign that Martin has more to show us regarding what exactly hapened there.
Matin has been hinting at the importance of the Aragorn archetype, and therefore Rhaegar for a long time now, even outside the book series. I will give you some relevant quotes.
[from Rolling Stone magazine interview, 23 April 2014]
[http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423]
“Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs,in their little orc cradles?”
[from io9 interview, 23 July 2013]
[http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845]
“And that has been interesting, you know. Jon Snow as Lord Commander. Dany as Queen, struggling with rule. So many books don’t do that. There is a sense when you’re writing something in high fantasy, you’re in a dialogue with all the other high fantasy writers that have written. And there is always this presumption that if you are a good man, you will be a good king. [Like] Tolkien — in Return of the King, Aragorn comes back and becomes king, and then [we read that] “he ruled wisely for three hundred years.” Okay, fine. It is easy to write that sentence, “He ruled wisely”.
What does that mean, he ruled wisely? What were his tax policies? What did he do when two lords were making war on each other? Or barbarians were coming in from the North? What was his immigration policy? What about equal rights for Orcs? I mean did he just pursue a genocidal policy, “Let’s kill all these fucking Orcs who are still left over”? Or did he try to redeem them? You never actually see the nitty-gritty of ruling.”
[from the Warriors anthology introduction published in 2010]
“Fantasy has given us such memorable warriors as Conan the Barbarian, Elric of Melnibone, and Aragorn son of Arathorn.”
(Note that the ASOIAF saga *already has* versions of Conan and Elric = Bittersteel and Bloodaven. It would be a bit peculiar if there wasn’t a version of Aragorn as a “king hiding”, especially after Martin described how he was unhappy with how that trope turned out. He has an opportunity to change how it works to something he likes better – like how Catelyn comes back like Gandalf but unlike him is a very different person, and like how the species associated with nature ie the children of the forest and weirwoods may not be as nice or well-intentioned as the Elves or Ents in Tolkien.)
[from the introduction of the chapter about Fantasy in the Dreamsongs career retrospective, 2003]
“Yet I kept on reading. I almost gave up at Tom Bombadil, when people started going “Hey! Come derry dol! Tom Bombadillo!” Things got more interesting in the barrow downs, though, and even more so in Bree, where Strider strode onto the scene. By the time we got to Weathertop, Tolkien had me. “Gil-Galad was an elven king,” Sam Gamgee recited, “of him the harpers sadly sing.” A chill went through me, such as Conan and Kull had never evoked.”
(So note that this was published after Book 3 came out, ASOIAF is a big hit, and Martin explicitly says the 2 parts of LOTR worthy of note for him were Aragorn’s appearance (where he’s in disguise) and a sad song which “the harpers” sing. Rhaegar had a harp and his sad mood is constantly brought up throughout ASOIAF. Note as well that Aragorn is the one who sings the song about Beren and Luthien early in LOTR.)
[from interview with the Hollywood Reporter, 5 November 2015]
[http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/george-rr-martin-game-thrones-837380]
“I think you need to have some hope,” he said Wednesday of how he envisions the end of the series. “We all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending.”
Martin has long maintained his plan to match the ending of Ice and Fire with the tone of J.R.R. Tolkien’s Return of the King, which saw Frodo Baggins and his fellow Hobbits succeed in their quest to save the world, only to return home and discover it ransacked by war. Given the current political landscape throughout the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros — not to mention the threat of White Walkers, zombies and ice spiders north of the great Wall separating the realms of men from unknown forces of lore — it’s easy to see how Martin’s story could land in that same space.
“I think Tolkien did this brilliantly,” he said.
(Note that Aragorn’s name when he was growing up in Rivendell was Estel, which means hope in Elvish. Also note at the moment of Aragorn’s death in the LOTR Appendicies, Arwen refers to death as a “gift” which is “bitter” to receive.)
There’s more evidence than all of this, even. But could someone explain why all the signs I have mentioned are in the text and interviews? Any other reason, or alternative foreshadowing?
Joe Blackfyre,
Look bro, we can’t take you serious if you think that Rhaegar is still alive.
We just can’t. But there is always a way to come back to the right direction.
Wimsey
It seems you can answer in both the negative and positive within the space of a paragraph. May I suggest you consider a career in politics.
What does a ‘one-off’ segment or episode set out to do? If there’s a complete story arc to tell, isn’t it nonsense to spread it over a few episodes? Where it makes for a better episode, that can be ‘stand-alone’. We’ve had both before.
Would it make sense to show Bran’s visions as separated segments spread over a couple of episodes? As an in-season series, that answer is yes. However, breaking them into distinct visions, the answer is no. One to each episode and told in full, within one segment of scenes, if possible.
Something like what takes place at ToJ, how do you see that being told? It has to be ‘one-off’, right? Obviously this mighty “Battle of the Bastards” appears to be of such significance it will be a ‘stand-alone’ or take up the majority of one episode.
Last season opened with a dedicated scene, a ‘flashback’. It set up Cersei’s arc for the whole season. Something similar, in story-telling terms, probably will be how this new (next) season begins. It must have direct significance to impact a later event.
Here’s something for you to consider. Remember what Bloodraven told Bran at the end of S04? What if this mystery scene at The Wall ends with an almighty shriek? (Complete with fade to black.) You don’t need to see anybody’s reaction.
How would you set that up in the opening episode?
Phil Necro,
Rhaegar is alive.
It is known.
Phil Necro,
What other reason is there for all those hints and clues I’ve just mentioned?
GENDRY!!
Finally someone will find his boat and give him a tow!
Luka Nieto,
So I’m being accused of sexism because I don’t like a change made? Grow up.
So you’ve cut off the part of that quote that puts it into context. Her wandering in the book is aimless but she is holding onto the hope that it as a purpose as she is looking for the two Stark girls. In the show she doesn’t have that. It shows her commitment to her duty…something she abandoned for vengeance in the show. I just don’t find the show incarnation endearing. She is not a likeable character. Am I not allowed to have that opinion?
Which men have had their fighting ability dramatically increased or decreased? The only ones you could make a case for is Bronn, who was put over as a very competent killer in the books and the show has just visualised that.
Seriously, I expect better from you than baseless personal attacks.
royz,
It sounds like you’re trying to convince yourself. Some parts are true thanks to WOTW and other sites and some is hopeless fanfiction. Belive it if you want, but if Sue said it’S extremely fake. I would believe her.
Joe Blackfyre,
It is far-fetched. I don’t believe it. However, the tiny thing I love about this theory (because, hey, this IS a theory) is the fact that
is the best person to prove that
(Remember that we are all wondering how the heck this is going to unfold : visions from Bran/bloodraven ? A crannogman’s word ?).
TheTouchOfFrost,
I don’t think you’re being conciously, ideologically sexist. I think sexism may affect your opinion, though; as well as the other, more conscious reasons you gave, of course (though I find them to be wrong as well; I think you may be misunderstanding Brienne’s character, especially on the show but not exclusively).
As for the men, Ramsay and Ned, for example, have been shown to be much better fighters in the show. The difference is much starker than with Brienne. There are plenty of other examples. It’s just the Hollywood-ization of fighting, and it affects both genders indiscriminately. I think there is a reason Brienne’s change jumps at some people and the similar changes to the men don’t… I think there is a reason these people were angry that she beat the Hound (even though he was injured!), and it’s an uncomfortable reason that they like to avoid discussing explicitly because it’s not “on” to just come out and say, even to onself, “it’s because she’s a woman”.
Luka Nieto,
Nope. I’m just not being sexist at al. You seem to be the one who is bringing her gender into the equation. It’s not relevant, her fighitng ability is the thing being discussed. I’m not misunderstanding, I’m just not liking!
Wouldn’t say Ramsay has been particulary ramped up. He’s been shown to fight like a psychopath but hasn’t done anything particularly impressive. Ned only shined against Jaime momentarily ( which admittedly is one of many events that has seriously undermimed the Kingslayers fighting ability) but it was left unresolved. Now if he takes Dayne down on his own next season I will agree with you.
I didn’t like the Hound defeat because of the circumstances of it happening. It reeked of shoving two characters together for a “cool” moment instead of more sensible plotting. Again, you’re the one bringing gender into it. What if people just didn’t like it because the Hound as a character is regarded as a better fighter than Brienne in the books and they didn’t like that it wasn’t portrayed that way in the show?
You’d have a point if the Hound hadn’t been injured. By that point he had suffered that infected wound for days or maybe weeks; a wound that was slowing him down, as Arya markedly and explicitly pointed out in the previous episode. Yet people, you included, still complained. What other choice is there but her gender? A few untrained nobodies taking down a completely healthy Sandor as in the books is apparently fine, but the best woman fighter we’ve ever seen taking him down when injured is not “realistic”. Whatever, man; go on believing it’s all about faithfulness to the source material and realism, even when it doesn’t make any sense. At least you won’t have to face the possibily that you may harbor uncomfortable sexist prejudices, as we all do!
I think Lame Lothar should have a kick-ass fighting scene with SweetRobin, just to prove to everyone that lame can be fun too.
Luka Nieto,
Well, no because he wasn’t defeated in combat then. He was defeated by an infection that he wouldn’t get treated. Much in the way Drogo was undefeated but still lost. Brienne has had similar situations in the book where she was going to be defeated but had assistance or a spot of luck to get out of it. When did I say it wasn’t realistic?! I said it was bad-story-telling and pandering to an audience.
You seem committed to trying to put words in my mouth and dig out sexim as a reason. Keep digging as you won’t find it. Whereas your pre-occupation with gender is self-evident. Maybe practice what you preach, eh?
Hodor’s Bastard,
GoT version of South Park’s Cripple Fight? Well, that was entertaining.
The horror. Is it something I shouldn’t be preocuppied with, I wonder?
I’m not sure why folks are going after Touch of Frost for saying he thinks it would be lame for Arya to kill Jaime (I’m not counting Wimsey, as he seems to have shifted back into his “I know better than everyone else” mode over the past week or two). As someone who has gone many rounds with Frosty over Brienne (I love her on the show, he most definitely does not), I came to the conclusion our disagreement wasn’t about me liking strong women, and him not, it was about our different reading of Brienne in the books. I feel her show character is in line with my interpretation of her in the books, whereas he feels they have made her a much better fighter in the show. It’s been a while since we’ve engaged in a Brienne debate, so I don’t recall the specifics, I just recall him saying something which made go me, oh, so it isn’t that he has an issue with kick-ass women…our ideas about her from the books are different.
I say all this as a segue into his statement about how he’d think it lame if Arya kills Jaime. Arya is one of my favorite characters, but I wouldn’t like it if she killed Jaime. There are other people I’d far rather see Arya kill. Additionally, there are people I’d rather see kill Jaime. I’d use a word other than lame, but that’s just word choice. I’d say I’d be really disappointed if Arya is the one to kill Jaime. Me not liking the idea of Arya killing Jaime has nothing to do with gender, and I don’t know that it does with Touch of Frost, either.
That’s the first thing I thought too
coc@succers! We all love u Ian!
Luka Nieto,
You work out your own mind yourself. I don’t want any part of it. Just don’t make false accusations with no evidence especially when they have nothing to do with the topic being discussed.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I’m glad you get it! It’s nothing to do with the gender at all. It’s to do with the interpretation of the character which I don’t agree with. I have the same issue with Loras. They have taken all his endearing qualitites and replaced them with things that take him away from the original concept of the character. They’ve changed things about other characters but kept their core essence. I don’t think they have with Brienne and Loras.
lucas,
His character will interact with outlaws and there is Mel at the Wall. No need for this. Not everyone is there to resurrect Jon and it makes no sense from what we know.
Hmmmm. A few people have speculated that
No one is responding, I think, because no one besides yourself interprets those supposed clues that you cite as foreshadowing. The connections that you draw are just way too tenuous to hold up. I highly doubt that GRRM takes a lot of time to think about every single sentence that he writes in the context of, “Now, how might someone interpret that choice of words as clues/foreshadowing/red herrings/hommages to earlier fantasy novels?” Some details are just bound to creep in without any intended reference to anything else, and get analyzed to death by us geeks to while away the time, sometimes leading to erroneous conclusions.
Let me give you an analogy from another book series that some people believed to have been at least partially influenced by LotR: When Harry Potter spared the life of Peter Pettigrew toward the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, and Dumbledore praised him for his mercy and explained that Wormtail now owed him a life debt, lots of readers saw that as a shout-out to Bilbo’s sparing Gollum and Gandalf’s famous speech to Frodo about mercy and about Gollum perhaps still having an important part to play in the fate of the One Ring. At the time, it seemed to many like very obvious foreshadowing that Wormtail would somehow turn against Voldemort before the end, distracting his attention in the final battle or something similar.
In the end, that life debt only manifested as a momentary hesitation that caused Peter to be strangled by his own silver prosthetic hand. There was no such hommage to Tolkien intended by the author – and Rowling is an author who is extremely meticulous about salting her narrative with clues and foreshadowings, as much as Martin if not more so.
I guess my point is that if you’re looking for evidence of some preconceived theory, you won’t have trouble finding some, or twisting the evidence to support your beliefs. It’s often merely wishful thinking. And I think that we’re all guilty of that to some degree, those of us who are deeply engaged in the alternate universes of writers who take a long time between books in a series. But in the case of your ‘Rhaegar is alive’ hypothesis, you seem to be reaching waaaay too hard when you seize on, for example, the song about Gil-Galad as a reference to Rhaegar just because it mentions sad harpers. I sincerely doubt that any such connection ever crossed GRRM’s mind. Nothing personal, but to me at least, it just sounds really absurd.
Hype Man Baelish,
But the phrase “a character we didn’t expect to return” doesnt translate to “a character that we thought was gone/dead”. He simply means that most viewers (especially non book readers) wouldn’t expect the Hound to return since his storyline w Arya ran its course. Like Bronn, hes a fan favorite but clearly a secondary character. With so many main players to focus on (dany, Jon, tyrion, cersei) , the average viewer won’t be anticipating the Hound to come back and play a (hopefully) pivotal role. And like some have expressed, bringing back LSH will only devalue the shocking return of Jon, no way the show runners will do it.
Gd75,
So sorry for you and my heart has been broken since I heard the news. Stay strong and safe.
Hmm, someone we thought we would never see again?
Possible:
Rickon?
The Hound?
Stoneheart?
Unlikely:
Nymeria?
Gendry?
Jon Snow?
Benjen?
I vote he’s bringing back Benjen or Rickon!
Angelique,
The Hound is going to battle Franken Mountain!!
He could be the recasted Thorus, so Lady StoneHeart is a possibility (I can dream cann’t I) and so is Jon.
But it seems to be that the Hound would be the most likely choice.
lucas,
Coldhands. He brings back Snow
I have a feeling he will be “bringing back” Shae.
Rikon.
Angela,
This is true to the books. Brienne meets with Septin Merribald and sees the Hound.
Ygritte,
Shea would be a flashback to haunt Tyrian.
Ser Pounce,
What if Ian is Cold Hands?
Annalisa,
Idk. Im guessing either way its a win-win. But does he mean bringing back like resurrection or revealing somes still alive?
Wimsey,
My theory is that Brienne dies defending Arya from the faceless men. A life pays for a life, so Arya gets a pass. Jamie is unharmed. He has to live and later kill Cersei.
Angelique,
There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing but darkness and thick black blood. This was one Brian’s first dreams in the first book. Sounds like the Hound and Jaime may end up taking on the Mountain in his new zombie find state. Which would make the Hound have a reason to come back. We all know he wants to kill his brother already since he says so quite often and he was the one who gave him the burns on his face.