Exclusive Photos of Game of Thrones’ Icy New Set at Wolf Hill Quarry

GOT PinkA few days back we heard the rumor of a new set taking shape in Northern Ireland and today, thanks to a Watchers on the Wall reader, we have proof!

While fans’ attention is wrapped up in the excitement of location filming in Spain, GoT crews have been quietly constructing a large snowy set at Wolf Hill Quarry, in the hills above Belfast.

The earlier report was uncertain of the new location, but now we have photo proof, submitted by WotW reader Loganx0.  The identifiable pink GOT signs are posted all along Crumlin Road, leading right to Wolf Hill Quarry and the set up there. The photo to the right is one of the signs, and so we have confirmation!

And what are they building? Have a look!

Wolf Hill Quarry was quiet when Loganx0 visited, so filming could be taking place during the evening/nighttime. However there might be no shooting yet, with crews still working on constructing the sets, since we can see several machines on site.

GoT has blanketed the area with fake snow and created an artificial icy surface, rather like an iced-over lake, similar to some of the Icelandic locations from earlier seasons.

You can also see a large green screen with snowy ground beneath it. The multiple aspects of the location creates the possibility that they could film by the green screen one day and by the icy surface on another- or on the same day, at different times.

(Open the photos in a new tab to enlarge for a closer look!)

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Such an icy location points to season 7 taking us beyond the Wall. There are a few reasons that could happen- the Night King and his undead army are still out there, and some other spoilers hinted at a possible reason for living humans going beyond the Wall. Could it be connected to Kristofer Hivju‘s magnificent and snowy beard?

In comments, please cover all spoilers! Thank you. 

Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com


  1. Hold the door!

    The wight hunt scene, apparently: a frozen lake with a small island, etc. I just hope that the showrunners will manage to give some reasonable motivation for that mission.
  2. Inga,

    If you’re discussing the leak, you have to label it or we’re going to delete it. Not everyone wants the entire season spoiled for them.

  3. Season 7 possible scene [CONTAINS LEAK INFO]:

    If Viserion really dies there…it will be one of the saddest(if not the saddest) death in GoT. I mean…a dragon’s death…a big dragon stabbing to death by hundreds of wights and the White Walkers…oh man…it will be tragic…
  4. Inga,

    I think it’s beyond doubt at this point that those leaks

    are real and very accurate, everything they said turned out to be true so far.

    I can’t tell if that makes me happy or worried. The set looks beautiful though. The photos are great.
    Loganx0 you’re a superstar(k) !

    Thanks for the post Sue !


    If leaks are true. It should be cool set piece. Jon is about to get his ass kicked. So much for greatest swordsman who ever walked. Sad about Viserion.

    EDIT:Thanks Sue. didn’t know how to phrase it.

  6. Oh my god. My head is going to explode.

    I don’t know how to make this clearer.

    If you are making any kind of reference to big old leak spoilers that were never published here and were certainly not in this post:




  7. Geralt of Rivia,


    wtf are you talking about?!Jon is the last man standing.He will be the best fighter not only because well he is Jon lol but they love to show off Kit cause he is great at it.It makes for cool tv.We will probably loose count of how many wights he takes out.Maybe he kills another ww who knows.


    What are you going on about exactly? By the sound of Jon is not much of use in the fight and Iam not too happy about it. It even sounds werid , sincde he always got some good heroic action. Getting kicked around by a bear, I mean bear is tough animal and wight on top of it but we’re talking about Jon who fought and killed even white walker.

    Do I like Jon being saved yet again? No. It happened with Stannis, LF and Sansa. Too much of him being saved by others, for once would like to see him acting.


    There is some wight polar bear fighting or something, isn’t it? I think there is and it kills Thoros and Jon gets well beaten up and being kncoked around. As that redditor dude said Jon gets away half dead, which fits if you get attacked or almost killed by a bear.
  9. Aguero,


    OK, if the showrunners have decided so, the mission is absolutely necessary. I just wonder how many people will see that goddamned wight in the Dragonpit?
  10. I actively seek spoilers, but this season those leaks really ruined the excitement of speculating for me. Even with the books, we weren’t sure how it was going to be adapted but leaks… If you haven’t read them, don’t make my mistake. Stay away from them.
    And those who have read the leaks, please respect the ones who haven’t.

  11. aeris,


    4chan guy didn’t say there is no lake, he said

    Reddit guy is wrong if he called it an island but it does take place by a lot of water so what difference does it make,I never used the word island, Because they’re not even really on an island. They’re like by the edge of the water on pack ice and the dragon make it worse by melting away a lot of it.

    he posted his spoilers before reddit guy, and the got asked for them.

    Jon Snow is no way the greatest swordsman in the story.
    Jon Snow is Jesus in the story…

  12. Seriously guys, it’s not difficult. You’ve all been posting here long enough to know the rules.

    Mods- you guys should have a three strike rule before banning the culprits. This place will be better off without them, frankly.. and will make your lives easier in the long run.

  13. I’ll need to be drunker than Tyrion for this episode and the subsequent Jon bashing. People just love picking him apart don’t they…
  14. Geralt of Rivia,


    you are confusing things.Read what the original leaker said.Jon will fight to the last minute.And he might be the best fighter but he is not invincible or immortal.Being saved by dragons or his uncle giving his life for him and bringing his arc to a conclusion is fitting and not at all demeaning to Jon’s character.Other people have to play a role too.He gets away half dead cause he is the last one fighting.Can you imagine how many he has taken out by that time?

    I was really expecting a Dragon to die this season, but if the leaks are true, as they seem they are, I really didn’t see it coming in the way it will come, so it’s gonna be really tough. I love those dragons… I’m sure it will be the saddest scene of the whole show for me. And I doubt knowing about his death will prepare me in any way 🙁
  16. Awesome. Hopefully this set is about as secure as Zumaia was. It would be nice to get some wintry pics to go with all the Spain spoilers.


    I’m not sure whether this is standing in for the wight hunt or the opening scene of WW’s marching towards the Wall, but it will probably look amazing either way. It’s a tough call until we get an idea of how long they’re supposed to film here, who’s directing, and which cast members are participating. If they end up shooting the action portions of the wight hunt here and reserve Iceland mainly for backdrop shots, I don’t think the Iceland shoot will take nearly as long as originally expected.

    And yeah, the same show-runners who had Jon fully recover from three arrow wounds in the space of about a week, getting his face smashed into an anvil by a Thenn without so much as scratch to show for it, and turning into a one-man army maybe 1-2 months after recovering from a series of fatal stab wounds are totally going to bench him for this sequence. That is completely in line with their MO for this character, which is why we were treated to Jon limping around in a feverish state throughout the entire Wall attack in Season 4. No choreography for Kit this year, D&D have enough money shots for that trailer thank you very much. I totally see the logic in internalizing some homophobic 4chan poster’s sad notions of masculinity and worth in favor of the description of the sequence provided by the one source who’s proven legit so far.

    Flayed Potatoes,

    I’m sure all seven of them will get over it eventually, but Jon’s been winning post-Season 6 popularity polls just fine without their approval.
  17. dragonreborn,
    I’ve kind of been wishing I hadn’t read them but with so, so much time left before the season airs I’m guessing I’d eventually glean much of it anyway. Sure, if I stayed away from everything GoT until that point I could avoid it but since the show started I’ve been participating year around and I’m not going to change that. Once the show is completely over it won’t be the same to discuss the story so I have to take full advantage of it now.

    I don’t feel at all that having read the supposed leaks will lessen my enjoyment watching the season though. I’m too big of a fan for that. While these apparent spoilers aren’t exactly like it was reading the books and then watching, since they’re mostly major plot points it isn’t much different since we knew the show would do the major parts of the published books at some point. I actually know less since there isn’t any context, no dialogue or knowledge of how or why they make decisions they will.

  18. aeris,


    I have actually a screenshot of both spoilers right in front of me the only difference is about Jon.
    He sounds immature, but nothing more to make him wrong.He is the only one who mentioned Tarly being part of the ambush and the actor who plays Tarly is already in Spain. Reddit spoilers guy didn’t mentioned him.

    Reddit spoiler (just for repeat)

    Jon goes North to capture an Undead – Dany goes too. He, Davos, Jorah and Gendry take a skiff to Eastwatch-On-The-Sea, where Tormund is manning. He has The Hound, Beric and Thoros in the Dungeon – they’ve been heading north too (following the ‘Lord of Light’s command that Beric has got into his head).

    After an ill advised attack on Kings Landing(i think he means CR by the way here), Jon realises that what he needs to do is provide proof of the Undead Army. So he takes the Hound, Beric, Thoros and Tormund (yes, it’s another VERY fast hike north in Westoros, they like those in the show) to capture an Undead. They succeed, but Thoros bites it, and Dany has to come to the rescue at the last minute – during the battle the Night’s King kills Viserion as well, so it’s a costly affair.

    No, she watches him fighting on an island against the Undead North of the Wall. Jon carries on fighting long after the others have escaped the horde, and she is flying above providing air support.

    He doesn’t mention how Jon escape, or how she lost her dragon.

  19. elybe,

    Don’t forget Jon covered in mud and blood and limping his way to kick Ramsay’s ass with only a shield, after fighting for half a day in a battle and getting trampled by men like he was at the Urban Outfitters opening on Black Friday.
  20. This is entertaining reading. Thick with tension.

    All I know is that the season is going to be epic.


    Does that lake look kinda small considering all the people and wights that are supposed to converge on it? Not to mention the big-ass dragon that’s supposed to fall into it. Well, maybe they’ll expand the lake with CGI. And I wonder what they will film behind the green screen. Seeing how out in the open this location is, I really hope someone manages to take pictures during filming. I’m dying to see Jon and the Hound fight side by side. And LOL believing Jon freakin’ Snow is going to get taken out by a polar bear. There’s no way D&D will pass up the chance to have their hero take on countless wights while giving his fellow fighters a chance to escape.
  22. Flayed Potatoes,

    No what he actually said was.


    Reddit spoilers :

    Dany gets a bit… determined, now that she’s set foot on Westeros. Which worries Varys and Tyrion, who have been hoping she isn’t as power mad as her dad. She torches a few rulers to make some points (including Sam’s Dad and brother), so she’s clearly not above using fear to rule after all.

    He doesn’t mention him being part of the ambush, only the 4chan guy did

    I am reading these from screenshots,it’s not my memory.

  23. Maggie,


    And then he mentions the battle and Jaime defeating the Tyrells and Dany heading with the Dothraki and Drogon for the Lannisters. Honestly, it’s not difficult to put the puzzle pieces together and realize the Tarlys were with the Lannisters based on what reddit guy said. She wouldn’t burn the Tarlys if they were on Olenna’s side.
  24. Maggie,


    he mentions the tarlys Dany rounds them up after the ambush and burns them.It’s only logical they would be there.And you have not read all of them he says how Jon escapes and how Dany looses the dragon
  25. aeris,


    Good. I remember reddit freaking out about the Tarlys joining the Lannisters instead of the Tyrells. He also said something about Cersei convincing them to join her so….
  26. They make such beautiful sets, there is something so majestic about a frozen lake, can’t wait to see the cinematography

  27. Maggie,

    [Contains Leak Spoilers]

    This is what AwayfromtheLads said (straight from screenshot)

    Again, Jon wasn’t involved in this conflict at all. And Tyrion isn’t always successful – when they round up the survivors after this altercation the Tarlys are among them – Cersei had persuaded them earlier to switch allegiance from The Reach to her, on the basis that she was the one true Queen. Randal Tarly actually really buys into this, and when Dany offers to let him bend the knee, he refuses. She orders Drogon to burn him and Dickon alive, which horrifies Tyrion – he can’t see the point.

  28. Jay Targ,

    You are right, i just missed that part.

    I hate all spoilers, but i don’t see why one is right and the other is wrong. Both sound terrible and Jon has to be saved by someone. I’d rather be a Stark than Dany.

    Anyway book Jon was never a great fighter so i don’t really care, since i believe he is Azor Ahai and he alone is the Song of Ice and fire…for me he is Jesus,

  29. Flayed Potatoes,


    I didn’t see the ‘freaking out’ about Tarlys joining the Lannisters. To be honest I’m not a redditor other than simply skimming interesting topics so I missed that. Anyway, I don’t see Randyll Tarly joining the Lannisters as a surprise. Where the situation lies on the show I saw it as almost a certainty. Where the books are Kevan has put him into an important position on the small council as Master of Laws. Perhaps book Cersei doesn’t blow up Kevan, but even so, with Cersei on the throne she’s able to provide Randyll with more security and promises than any of the other depleted regions if he agrees to support her. He’s certainly one to take advantage of that.
  30. Maggie,

    Book Jon and show Jon are completely different characters. The latter has been portrayed as this brilliant swordfighter above everything else, mostly thanks to Kit’s skills with the sword.

  31. Flayed Potatoes,

    Yup. Note that Jon completely mind-over-mattered that limp moments after being thrown from his horse. Mad dash after Ramsay? No prob. Even the wildling archers in that courtyard were exchanging looks, all, “Can you believe this fucker?”


    I’ve noticed some of the damsel!Jon and screwup!Jon laments resurfacing. The spoilers actually have Dany saving everyone except Jon while he holds off the hoard and buys her time. Benjen’s the one who actually saves him in the end, but it’s unclear why Jon gets left behind in the first place. How any of that is a neg against him, though, is beyond me. Jon asks Dany for her help from the get go and she refuses because she doesn’t believe in WW. She’s among the people he’s trying to convince. Had she joined the expedition from the very beginning, she could have surveyed the area from the air and seen a potential ambush coming from miles off. Once Jon and the others secured the wight, she could have used dragon fire to hold off any advancing wights and given them more than enough time to escape. How is her choosing to help only after the shit completely hits the fan in any way Jon’s fault? Unless Dany initially offers to come with them and Jon inexplicably tells her to wait on Dragonstone instead (now that is something I wouldn’t put past D&D after Season 6), he hasn’t fucked this up in any way. He does what he can with what they have, and if the ambush happens after Gendry is sent back to Eastwatch with the wight, the mission was already a success regardless of whether or not Jon personally made it back. That wight would have been transported south either way.
  32. elybe,


    Exactly. We’re missing a lot of context. I also think some fans hold Jon to this impossibly high standard compared to many of the other characters. If he tells Dany to stay behind and she doesn’t listen…idk how we can blame him then lol. We desperately need context. I feel like this is a case where the showrunners think about a plot point they want to get to (NK gets a dragon and causes a lot of damage, explosions, VFX blabla) and they’ll bend the plot to suit their wants, which would result in some weird characterization. We kind of saw this with the Vale army last season. I also think Jon needs Dany and Cersei to stop fighting and focus on one thing. He can’t afford to have Dany’s army involved in multiple battles at the same time and he can’t afford Cersei attacking them while they’re busy fighting WW. He has to have them on the same page.

    I think it’s this toxic mentality that ‘real men need to do everything themselves’ or ‘real men aren’t real men if they’re saved by someone else, especially by women’ that influences things. Notice that in many cases when Jon is helped by someone or someone shows support for him, that person is a woman: Ygritte speaking up for him when meeting the Lord of Bones, Craster’s wife helping him, Lyanna making him KITN, Mel resurrecting him, Sansa convincing him to fight Ramsay…the list goes on. Notice they never complain as much when the likes of Tormund, Stannis, Sam, and Davos help him. It also doesn’t help that the showrunners like to equate violence with strength (look at how Doran and Tommen are viewed as weak or stupid by some fans for not being aggressive warmongers).

    I honestly think that this positions Jon far from the Mary Sue label, so I can’t complain.

  33. That lake reminds me of one of the great scenes in cinema, the Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky. I hope we see something half as good as that. Anyway, it’s a welcome change from all the Spanish news–you’d think nothing was happening up North. North is where the real, apocalyptic action should be. For all its fascinations, the Game of Thrones is getting rather old-hat. I hope it gets fully settled quickly (Cheerio, Cersei. Tarra, Littlefinger.) because in the Game of the Others, you win or you all die.

    Sue, Luka, mods and everyone, please don’t pull your hair out. It is really hard to confidently hide spoilers. I try to just avoid them in what I write. But the other critical part of posters’ challenge is that you practically have to have a printout of all the leak material in front of you AND check before posting that you didn’t include leak material or even inadvertently speculate based on leak material you’d already assimilated weeks ago. It’s a minefield..

  34. Sue the Fury,

    The leaker and his little fan fiction posse are posting on Reddit that you have basically confirmed his leaks are true now because of this reaction. Apparently you have an inside connection and because you haven’t denied it then it must be true, can you confirm or deny this statement?

  35. Flayed Potatoes,


    I think you’re dead on with the toxic “real man” mentality certain segments of the fandom hold. Jon the weak-minded sex slave is a by-product of that kind of backwards thinking as well.
  36. Kathy:
    Sue the Fury,

    The leaker and his little fan fiction posse are postingon Reddit that you have basically confirmed his leaks are true now because of this reaction. Apparently you have an inside connection and because you haven’t denied it then it must be true, can you confirm or deny this statement?

    Wow, that’s very rude. Get a life, will ya?

  37. Flayed Potatoes,

    I agree lol

    people seem to want Jon to act like a Mary Sue. If he does, they then start calling him “Mary Sue”. If he doesn’t, they start saying he isn’t a real man, he is getting his ass kicked, useless etc. He can’t win either way.
    I am not too thrilled that the writers are giving him a “saved at the last moment” every damn season. Still, some of the fandom’s extreme reaction is ridiculous.
    No matter how this plays out, I am expecting a lot of Jon bashing next season.
  38. I have to add on to what I wrote earlier:

    I feel a bit sad for those that are having to force themselves to avoid all these spoilers, like Dee for example, because she and others are massive fans that just want to discuss things. As I said, I don’t have the willpower like they do at this point. It goes beyond that though because I think they’ll end up spoiled quite bit while the season runs anyway since no matter how well comments are moderated the live episode discussions run fast. If the leaks unfold as true, one by one it will be difficult to avoid additional ones that are tossed into discussion. While it’s not a big deal to me it is to some.

  39. Wow Kathy how rude! It might be time to slowly back away towards the exit & slink off into the darkness.
    Spoilers, leaks, etc. can be taken with a grain of salt when they’re coming from the dark corners such as 4chan & Reddit. Whether they’re true or not doesn’t really matter, in the grand scheme of things. All they’ve given us are a few major plot points. No context, no dialog, no amazing shots on the screen, and no dramatic music.
    If there’s anything I will confirm, that is that WotW is the only site that I rely on for info & a few spoilers here & there.

  40. Speaking of Jon… I still expect him to do something ‘fantastic’ before the series finale. His resurrection and Mel’s proclamations have been pushed into the background a bit, and I think that’s on purpose. Many already view Dany as something above mortal because of what they’ve shown her do. Jon has been set up to be the same imo, especially with blood of the dragon himself, but that’s being held back until they get to the appropriate part of the story. I feel like they’re lulling us in showing he’s simply a skilled regular guy until some point in the climax of the series when he’ll bust into extraordinary.

  41. I didnt get onto the GoT or WOTW bandwagon until season 5, but seriously, the first 5 seasons were already spoiled by the books. Anyone who knew the books already knew the story, so why would anyone be upset about these spoilers or leaks? Part of the fun of all this is knowing the broad strokes and discussing and debating the details and nuances of how the show is going to pull them off.

    Anyone who is going to enjoy the show less because of a spoiler must have never enjoyed the show the first 5 seasons.

  42. If I didn’t know any better I’d say this is the Lake that Stannis is planning to lure the Boltons army to…

    Oh wait….

    Grrr, I’ve been holding off on spoilers but are starting to catch them now, Off-season is simply too long!

    Castle pics look great

  43. Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface:
    I didnt get onto the GoT or WOTW bandwagon until season 5, but seriously, the first 5 seasons were already spoiled by the books. Anyone who knew the books already knew the story, so why would anyone be upset about these spoilers or leaks?

    I’m a show watcher first, book reader second. I went into GOT knowing absolutely nothing about it but once I was hooked, I frequently used the ASOIAF wiki to spoil myself about all the major upcoming events. “Oh shit, Ned dies?!” “OMG, Robb and Cat are Red Wedding-ed?!”. “What do you mean my beloved Jon Snow is stabbed to death?!” Knowing all of that didn’t diminish my enjoyment of the show one bit, just like reading leaks and spoilers hasn’t ruined my anticipation for S7. While I do agree with you that book readers basically had the first 5 seasons spoiled for them, I also understand that they see the difference between book spoilers and internet leaks. It’s just a shame that the word “leaks” has become so divisive around these parts.

  44. Irina Stark:

    I think it’s beyond doubt at this point that those leaks

    I can’t tell if that makes me happy or worried. The set looks beautiful though. The photos are great.
    Loganx0 you’re a superstar(k) !

    Thanks for the post Sue !

    I couldn’t agree more.

  45. What the fuck is happening this year regarding so many leaks and spoilers! Its just getting silly. I’m surprised there’s been no official comments from B&W regarding this.

    During the year when S6 was being filmed, the security was pretty tight. Ok, we got a few photos like the theater group in Braavos, Arya jumping off a wall and the fight at the Tower of Joy, but not much else. Certainly no major leaks regarding events that would happen.

    I have no problem with the paps posting photos and fans speculating on what may happen, but when scripts or episodes get leaked its bad news. Whoever this guy is on Reddit who’s posting this stuff (and if the info is true) I can only think its someone with inside information? A member of the crew perhaps who needs to be rooted out and a stop put to this! Things posted on the Internet can be traced and its no big deal these days to do this?

    I’m sure I speak for many, but I certainly have no desire to know what to expect when S7 airs.

  46. Clob,

    Totally. What do you think it will entail, any ideas? One speculation is it’ll be him ending up as the new Night’s king once he defeats him. That would be more bitter than sweet. For his fans at least.

  47. Pigeon:
    What I wouldn’t give for some Arya sightings right now.

    Me too! I want to know if she has a run in with Sandor…and what about “going home”. Will this girl make it to Winterfell? She would have to know that the Starks are back in control.
    The Jon and Dany stuff is great, who doesn’t love some good build up, but I am so friggin’ invested in Arya and Sandor that I watch for them first now.

    If the spoilers are right about Dany burning the Tarlys, I would totally understand Tyrion and Varys’ worry about her becoming more like her Dad. Not that Randyll Tarly isn’t an asshole but ruling by fear….ut-oh. Not good. Isn’t that what the Masters did in Mereen?
  48. Jenny,


    Whoa. Am I confusing info? I swear polar bear fight was mentioned and Jon almost killed by that redditor. If so, could be turn of events like

    1. polar bear fight

    2.WW attack comes afterwards and then Jon shines.

    So both could be right? He gets knocked out and then fights or is polar bear part of white walkers attack? Iam confused wih this.

  49. Black Raven,

    During the year when S6 was being filmed, the security was pretty tight. Ok, we got a few photos like the theater group in Braavos, Arya jumping off a wall and the fight at the Tower of Joy, but not much else. Certainly no major leaks regarding events that would happen.

    We got numerous pictures that spoiled the entire confrontation between the High Sparrow, Jaime, Mace, and the Tyrell soldiers. We also got clear photos of the Waif’s bloody knife that spoiled Arya getting stabbed and also Arya in the water post-stabbing. There was a drone that flew over the filming of the Kingsmoot that revealed Theon would be there. And, of course, the money shot of a very-much-alive Jon in Stark armor on a battlefield. So, yeah, there certainly was “much else”. As for season 6 leaks, there was a very detailed and accurate leak that dropped mid-season. So, this season is no different than last season in regards to spoilers and leaks.

  50. Flayed Potatoes,

    At least you could’ve choose different gif, not with HP on it.

    ghost of winterfell,

    Both seem legit. Not much of it contradicts itself.


    Jon and co gets attacked. Some injured including Jon, almost killed by that freaking bear, then comes Night King and his army. Redditor said it took Thoros several hours to die.



    It might be Jon gets beaten up by a wight polar bear and then kick ass. It appears to be several hours between those two fights. If people are right. It kills Thoros and along with someone else.


    You do that with Dany a lot. 😉

  51. Geralt of Rivia,

    That is my best bet too.

    Leak content:

    If they are preparing the lake, that means Alan Taylor is shooting scenes or starting too. Which means – WEDDINGflash- back if you trust the leaks. Let the “find Rhaegarhype” begin. He will arrive.
  52. kells,

    [Contains Leak Spoilers] Tarly’s

    It says that Tyrion and Varys worry about her not being able to control her impulses; her impulse being to ambush the Lannister army on their way back from plundering Highgarden. My understanding of those leaks (from screenshots of awayfromthelads reddit) are that Dany burns the Tarly’s because they turncoat on Olenna and House Tyrell in favor of the Lannister’s. The leaks say that she (Dany) then offers Lord Tarly to bend the knee and he refuses; she then proceeds to dracarys him and Dickon, and this horrifies Tyrion.

    But from the screenshots I’ve seen, there’s no mention of them (Varys and Tyrion) being concerned about her potentially becoming like her dad nor of her ruling through fear. Not saying that version of the leaks is incorrect; I’ve seen other redditors claim it but there is no screenshot showing that it comes from awayfromthelads, at least as far as what I’ve seen. It is possible that I missed it

  53. aeris,

    Disagree completely, bookJon and showJon are very much the same person: honorable, pragmatic, selfless, prone to losing their cool when angry, naive, lack of malice, introverts, brooders, strong hero complex, etc. The one major difference I see between them is Arya. BookJon adores Arya over everyone else, showJon hasn’t really thought about her much. The novels emphasize the Jon-Arya relationship very strongly, this perhaps explained by GRRM not being able to completely let go of his original idea for the characters. If he couldn’t make them lovers then he settled for given them a healthy and loving sibling connection.

  54. Jay Targ,

    I don’t think we need to be told that they worry about her becoming mad king. Every time she is going to use the dragon or every time she kills someone ..she will be called that ..because we always have to feel wrong when female characters kill ..and we should have tyrion remind her about mad king..

    I think we must forget about harrenhall or field of fire and I don’t think anyone calls aegon mad king ..

    I look forward to this scene and how even the execution of traitors also will be questioned and how it makes tyrion of all people worried so much … At this rate we should start calling him peter dinklage and not tyrion..

  55. Geralt of Rivia,

    That polar bear scoop is from 4chan, not reddit (Lads only mentioned a polar bear fight, Thoros being killed by it and needing hours to die from his wounds). The 4chan guy seems to be some very young angry GOT/Jon Snow hater
  56. Jay Targ,

    Hey, the quote i posted is directly from screenshot, (which i posted here as welll but got erased)

    [Contains Leak Spoilers]

    He does use the word “like her dad” and “uses fear” for Dany

    I expect you to public aware your mistake, as i did

    , because i am 100% sure for this and it’s rude to pretend that you didn’t read his public spoilers just to make another poster seem liar.
    If you want the sex and believe the leaks, you have to accept Dany lost the war and burned some people to establish fear about her as the leaks mention.
    Everyone has to accept the plot if this is it. Jon becomes a sidekick, Jaime doesn’t leave Cersei, Sansa believes LF, Arya becames a killing machine, Cersei doesn’t know how to take moon tea, Euron is a joke and it goes on

    It sucks for all of us, but thats the truth.

  57. dragonbringer,

    Lol seriously.

    I think I found the post from awayfromthelads that Kells was referring to, though I interpret it differently.

    Tyrion and Varys
    It’s unbelievable that Tyrion, of all people would be concerned with this. He supposedly knows all about Targ history, so as you say, he must know all about Aegon the Conquerer. The leaks literally says that Dany gives him a chance to bend the knee to atone for his treachery and he declines. From Dany’s POV, and from my POV, it makes perfect sense on why she would kill him. Hell, if I lived in this world, I wouldn’t have even given him the chance to bend the knee.
    Also didn’t Varys promise Fire and Blood lol.

  58. Maggie,

    Yeah I think I found something

    [Contains Leak Spoilers]

    I genuinely have not seen a screenshot of that quote (I’m definitely not pretending lol) but I do think I found it through one of those sites that show deleted reddit posts. So apologies if it seemed like I was dismissing the quote you provided.

    I do think both quotes (the one I initially posted and the one you posted) are pretty much the same though worded differently. I still think she toasts them because they turncoat rather than because she wants to instill fear. But we’ll see, we’re lacking context.

  59. Guys, moving away from the leaks for a second, I’d just like to revisit our northern storyline. As I have been studying for exams these past couple of weeks I have not been able to read every post made on WOTW. Have we seen any pics of Maisie or Sophie? I feel like we are all completely in the dark with regards to Sansa’s story this season.

    Sue the Fury,

    Sue, I hope this comment isn’t beyond the scope of the post! Feel free to delete it 🙂

  60. Clob,

    Yes, he’ll

    bang the Dragon Queen.

    That’s the most extraordinary thing he’ll do this season and he’ll need great stamina, hehe !

    Black Raven,

    People are a lot more curious because the plot is drawing to a close, it’s a natural response – wanting to know more. I don’t blame them.


    Same, I am so curious to see what she makes of the whole situation in Westeros, she is not Dragon’s Bay anymore. She is in the land of cunning snakes and devious, two-faced liars and traitors, she needs to showcase her power and ferocity otherwise they’d just stomp all over her.



    I’m worried about how Dany’s part will play out, if she just sits and watches from a distance as the wights fight the boys or she just swoops in later without any warning and saves the day, either way I’m worried about how she gets there, what drives her there, about Viserion and about the dynamics between her and Jon afterwards with Jon being left behind and all, I’m worried she’ll be bashed yet again after saving the day. Not worried about Jon though, he’ll always be the beloved hero, if he almost dies in this battle, he’ll come back twice as strong. As for Dany,

    there will be a dramatic shift of priorities from her part after that scene though, that I’m sure of. I hope it’ll be a change for the better.
    God, I hope Alan Taylor knows what he’s doing !

  61. Jay Targ,

    Well that should make sense but somehow she being female ..her executions or kill must be questioned …and I am sure she will be smiling while she burns them ..

    After last season BOTB episode and tyrion revealing about why Jamie killed aerys and their scene in the TWOW and from the D&D quote about how she is ruthless but not mad or cruel ..
    I thought we will be over this whole mad king and move on…but apparently thats not the case..

    And regarding dany must lose and ambush
    When I spoke about how there was no time spent on some of her ruling or decision making scenes like in ADWD in the past seasons ..thr response was she is not a ruler but conqueror..

    By the looks of things she is not even going to be a conqueror ..

  62. YESSS !!!


    DANY SWOOPS IN TO SAVE HER BOO ! That’s what I’m talking about ! You go girl, save his White Wolf ass and them f*ck him on a boat !

    I am excited, can’t you tell ?

  63. dragonbringer,

    [Leak Spoilers Included]

    Yeah, probably. In fairness, ever since S5 they’ve made every female character smile or act smug when killing someone. They’ve been fairly consistent in that regard so it doesn’t bother me as much. I guess it’s meant to show strength and badassness.

    Yeah, they’ve got to create some sort of minor internal conflict between Dany and Tyrion. I thought we were moving on from that as well but whatever; I know she’s not going to go mad so I’m not bothered. I’ve already stated that it would be just as effective to try to counsel Dany out of showing compassion but I guess not.

    I actually like that they’re making her conquest hard but I’m hoping we still see her implement some of ideas/plans from her previous conquests. She’s quite bright and cunning in that regard.

    On a more positive note; I’m looking forward to Ramin Djawadi’s score for Dany this season. It always stands out for me. I’m particularly curious about the soundtrack for the boat scene lol

  64. Flayed Potatoes,

    At least you could’ve choose different gif, not with HP on it. 😀

    ghost of winterfell,

    Both seem legit.


    Jon and co gets attacked. Some injured including Jon, almost killed by that freaking bear, then comes Night King and his army. Redditor said it took Thoros several hours to die.


    Same with you and Dany. 😉

  65. Jay Targ,

    Me too, my friend, me too !

    So excited for the boat scene score. I want tears to stream down my face and I want to be so excited that my knees kick me in the face as I’m sitting down !

    GET HYPED !!

  66. Jay Targ,

    Yeah that’s one thing we can always look forward to ..ramin will never disappoint us

    The fact that we know she is not going to go mad is what makes me annoyed ..
    We all know that’s not going to happen but why still hanging on that same point …I don’t know..just make her mad and be done with it

    Iam not aginst making the conquest hard ..its just that they are rushing to reach the plot points and which makes characters act OOC and from what we know from leaks ..its not even a conquest ..she basically just going to take dragonstone and win an ambush or escape from one

  67. Jewel,

    [Contains leak spoilers]

    Truly original writing that. Jon reduced yet again to damsel in distress. She likes him so much, she left him behind. Seems really weird.
  68. Geralt of Rivia,

    Not complain about minor things like you do…

    we all know why Jon is going to be

    left behind or how that will happen..
    He is not someone who will be climbing a dragon and escape at the first chance he gets and leaves others who followed him on their own

    He is someone who will ask dany to take others to safety while fighting to hold of the wights and he will ensure that everyone is safe and out of harms way before he decides to escape himself

    By the way we do not even know dany does not come back for him..
    There could not have been a place for jon to drogon to carry ..so she goes to drop those people first and while she is on her way benjen will help him fight and hold wights..

    If Jon was supposed to ride a dragon…then this sequence is the most apt scene and situation in taking over rhaegal..I still think this is possible

    You complain about his arc when he is the one character who is making the biggest impact in westeros and in the story..

    No one listens to him because they are focused on their petty wars ..

    He is literally left with no option other than go for this mission..

    He manages to provide evidence for his claims

    He manages to stop the war and make people believe in the threat ..atleast most of the people

    So basically as D&D said Jon is overcoming the sefilsh individuals and ambituous ones being the only selfless one…

    Jon snow’s populatrity only increased more after the episodes of Hardhome , WOTW and BOTB ..they did not go down and same will happen after this sequence

    In all these wars How is a guy with no bigger army or any dragons was even supposed to win in the first place without getting others help….

    If Jon is not to be saved by other then he should have been ruling the westeros from the start or command a biggest army or have dragons and wolves..

    If Jon had all this he would not be Jon will he now..

    Last I checked no one in story questioned about his actions in BOTB or accused him for falling into Ramsey’s trap or his advisors worrying him about acting on impulse ..

  69. elybe,

    ghost of winterfell,

    At least now they can’t call him a Mary Sue or a special snowflake anymore lol. They took out his warging on the show (so no special powers), they have Jon openly admit his faults and mistakes (a Mary Sue is perfect at everything, or it’s never acknowledged openly that they made mistakes), we have other characters openly disagree with Jon on things instead of falling over themselves to please him and worship him, his special resurrection gets downplayed (what god? lmao). I can go on…


  70. Flayed Potatoes,

    I never thought there will be a word that will make me annoyed as reading Mary sue or plot gifts or plot armor until i read a word ” Submissive Boy Toy ” ..

    My god I was reading a season 7 thread on westeros and this word is used there so many times..I got sick of it

  71. dragonbringer,

    I agree ! Jon is brave, strong, fearless, selfless, compassionate and caring. It doesn’t matter if he needs saving or not, it wouldn’t make him worth any less to me. He will never be a Mary Sue, he has proved his worth time and time again. And if

    Dany saving him does change the way you feel about him as a man, as a warrior or as a leader, no offense but you’re not a true Jon fan. He’ll be left behind for saving others first, without a doubt and he’ll survive. That’s the kind of man he is.
  72. Flayed Potatoes,

    And some people still call him a Mary Sue, lol.



    I agree that’s how things will unfold

    in the fight

    . Just one thing:

    The leaks don’t mention Rhaegal at all in this sequence. All the others escape on Drogon apparently (The Hound, Tormund, Jorah and the Wight) and Viserion is killed. So where is Rhaegal? It’s not clear if he even takes part in this fight.

    As before, I disagree with your assertion that Jon never gets blamed,especially after BOTB. If you truly believe that, I am going to guess you just did not check out the online reaction immediately after that episode aired.

    As for next season, there are plenty of people who are blaming him for the Wall coming down lol (among the people who have read the leaks),even though he had no idea that any dragon would be coming beyond the Wall.

  73. ghost of winterfell,

    I was speaking about in universe ..i believe i mentioned in the story in that post and not in the fandom like now

    Anyway The ones who complain saved or dumb and about all this is his very fans ..

    Dont worry the blame will be shifted to dany because she is the one who brings the dragons there..
    I don’t even know how one can blame for something like that…if she doesn’t show up all this characters will die..
    Is that OK with these guys I don’t know..

    Maybe it should be Bran’s fault that he didn’t have a vision of this mission and warn Jon and Dany about not taking dragons to north of the wall ..

    Its got me intrigued as well there is no mention of rhaegal at all in spoiler. ..I don’t believe there will be any other riders in the story but if Jon is supposed to be a rider this will be the right moment to do it..
    I still have hope that there are many thinks we do not know about for certain from the leaks..
    Maybe iam in denial state.

  74. dragonbringer,

    Sansa was literally questioning and disagreeing with Jon in everything he was doing lol.


    My guess has always been, if Jon is to ride a dragon, it will be after he knows the truth about his parentage. Like, he would think that the dragons would probably only bond with Targaryens. So unless he knew that he himself was one, he wouldn’t even try to ride one.

    After last season ended, I wasn’t sure if anybody other than Dany would ride the dragons. But now I do believe that Jon will ride Rhaegal (reasons because Viserion gets a rider and there are dragon bonding scenes for Jon next season) and it will happen only after he knows the truth about his parentage (which means S8) . This is just my guess of course, I might be wrong.

    I don’t see how anyone can blame either Jon or Dany for the Wall falling down. Their actions are completely understandable based on their motivations. That’s not going to stop people from blaming them, of course.

    As for the leaks, I think Lads has been proved correct on almost all major plot points. What’s missing is the context and the character motivations, which actually make all the difference. I am going to wait until the episodes air to judge how I feel about all this.

  75. ghost of winterfell,

    It would be super cool if in fact Dany doesn’t need to come back and save him because while she is taking everyone to safety Rhaegal comes to Jons aid and then just sits there for a second…. and then Jon gets on and they fly away. If this happened before he found about his parentage it would be even better because it would make the eventual reveal more believable to others. “Ooooh of course, that why he was able to ride a dragon!” 🙂
  76. [Discussion about the leaks]

    Regarding Jon’s mission and his arc for the season:

    The leaks are like a basic summary, there are still a lot of gaps to fill in. A lot of people these days are just looking for plot holes and “bad writing”. Instead of people just trying to think about and point out what is wrong with the leaks, I think it might be more productive to try and figure out what the motivation behind these actions are.

    We can try to fill out the gaps and details within the leaks, instead of just trying to find fault with them. Of course D&D isn’t always perfect, there were certain aspect of season 6 that wasn’t good, but for the most part their characterizations has made sense as far as the story they have been telling.

    Going from that idea, I think I could reasonably come up with an arc for Jon and Dany this season.

    I think Jon could actually have a great arc in season 7. It might even be his best yet.

    Jon basically wants to assemble a force to fight against the White Walkers as soon as possible. He also needs weapons such as dragonglass, for such a force.
    He goes to Dany in episode 2 or 3, he tries to convince her to fight against the White Walkers but she simply does not see it as her first priority after waiting years to come to Westeros. She first wants to defeat the Lannisters or Cersei.

    Jon really becomes stuck in the middle of these Southern conflicts.

    Dany launches a large scale campaign on Westeros, but perhaps she stretches her forces too much. She wants to attack Euron or the Iron Islands, Casterly Rock and the Westernlands and Kings Landing. At the same time the Reach and Dorne must also be protected.

    That gives Euron the chance to gain a victory against Yara, and to capture some of her allies (the Sandsnakes and Yara).
    It also gives the Lannisters a chance to fight against the Reach. They will properly really need supplies within Kings Landing. Dany actually suffers some losses against the Lannisters.
    After finding out about her defeat in the Reach and Olenna’s death, she rides out against the returning Lannister army, and ambushes them before they can reach the capital. Dany and Olenna was obviously betrayed by the Tarly’s, which is also how the Lannisters gained the upperhand.
    Dany could be furious about this betrayal.
    She does burn them after the ambush. Burning people alive isn’t good, but they committed treason, they were always going to die one way or another.

    In the meantime Jon has to wait and sit around at Dragonstone doing nothing. He has to wait for her return because they haven’t reached an agreement yet. This must make him really impatient. Despite his warnings, and him trying his best to convince Dany of the real threat she is not taking him that seriously. Or perhaps she believes that the White Walkers can wait until she is done with her conquest of Westeros.
    In the meantime more and more people are getting killed before they had the chance to fight against the White Walkers.

    Tyrion might see and understand some of Jon’s impatience, and his concerns about this war. That is perhaps why Tyrion comes up with the idea of talking to Jaime, in order to convince Jaime to hand over Kings Landing more peacefully, without further unnecessary fighting.
    Jon can see the merits of conquering Kings Landing quickly without any further bloodshed, so he “lends” Davos for the mission.
    Tyrion and Davos goes to Kings landing in episode 5 while Jon is still waiting, hanging around Dragonstone. Jaime does not want to hand over Kings Landing peacefully, their mission is unsuccessful, but they do pick up Gendry along the way.

    At this stage Jon has been sitting around and waiting for a long time. All of the possible solutions for a quick and easy victory over Kings Landing has been exhausted. He is no closer to gaining Dany as an ally at this stage or to at least stop the fighting.
    The big problem for Jon is that no one is taking the White Walker threat seriously.

    Jon needs to make another plan in order for Westeros to stop killing each other and focus on the real threat. This is basically the same as him trying to save the Wildlings. The war between Cersei and Dany creates two problems. One is that they are killing off soldiers that can be used to fight against the wights and the White Walkers. The second problem is that war creates a lot of dead bodies. All of these dead people could perhaps be resurrected. From Jon’s perspective the fighting needs to stop. So he decides that he needs to find concrete proof, so that people can understand the urgency.

    Jon wants Dany for an ally, but Dany doesn’t want to fight unless the Cersei/ Kings Landing problem is resolved. So Jon decides to go on a wight hunt. He will bring the proof to them. Dany is likely not completely against the idea of fighting the White Walkers, she just thinks that they have more time, and she wnt to focus on winning Kings Landing. As a sign of goodwill she “lends” Jorah for the expedition. Jorah is also one of her best advisors, he would be able to tell her what is really going on, and he is a Northmen.

    Jon and his group of adventurers leave Dragonstone in episode 5. After they have left, Dany suddenly has an epiphany that she has to rescue them, and she flies after them with her dragons. This is perhaps some place where Bran might be having an affect on the story, it could be Bran who sends her some kind of a message.

    Of course what Jon doesn’t realize is that the Nights King is also a greenseer just like Bran, since he was able to touch Bran when Bran was using the Weirwood network.
    The Nights King can see that Jon and Dany’s dragons are on their way.

    Jon decides on a small party because he wants to move quickly, but of course the Nights King knows about his movements. The wight hunting party becomes surrounded by wights and White Walkers. Dany arrives and with the help of her dragons she saves them.
    But Jon tells them to get a wight and leave while he stays behind and keeps on fighting, so that he can give the others a better chance of escape. Dany watches from above Drogon as Jon keeps on fighting. She tries to help him until Viserion is killed.

    Bran could actually be the one who save the day, by sending uncle Benjen to save Jon. This is really something that I think would make sense. In the books we see that Bloodraven sends Coldhands to help Bran and his party. Jon finally escapes, and he returns to Eastwatch. After these events they organize a parlay with Cersei in the Dragonpits.
    I dont think they necessarily want Cersei as an ally, it is more about creating a temporary truce or a ceasefire, so that they can focus on the real war.

    After showing off the wight in Kings Landing, Dany finally decides to go North with Jon.

    After Jon had just once again seen the Nights Kings, and he even saw a dragon getting killed, he feels that it is imperative that he would do anything to get help to fight against them.
    It makes sense that he would kneel if Dany promised that she would really help against the fight with the White Walkers. Ultimately he wants to try and save the North, it does not help to stay independent if everyone is dead and turned into zombies.

    But I think Dany will turn down his offer, or she will at least tell him that they should fight against the White Walkers as equals. For the last couple of seasons we have not seen that much character development from Dany. She is always acting very righteously, and she does have some justification for acting in such a manner since she has been dealing with slave masters, and she has been on a mission to free slaves.

    But I think we might see Dany being slightly humbled by Jon. Dany will witness Jon going on this dangerous mission, in order to warn other people about this ancient threat. She will witness Jon, who is the King, staying behind in order to give others such as the Hound who is known as a criminal, a chance of escaping with their lives, and in order to complete this mission, so that people can be warned.
    She will finally see this great threat for herself, and she will also see that Jon is willing to lay down his title in order to protect his people.

    This is completely different and the opposite from the people and rulers that Dany has seen and experienced in the past.
    Unlike most other characters Jon isn’t driven by righteousness, vengeance, revenge or even a sense of justice, he is just trying to save as many people as he can. I think she will feel slightly humbled and she will tell him that they should fight as equals. Then we will properly get boat sex.

    In the end I think both Dany and Jon could actually have great stories in season 7.

  77. So, getting back to the topic at hand – and these amazing pics (Thanks Loganx0!), I’ve just managed to blow these up and noticed that they’re building a large opening or rock/ice channel at the back of the quarry.

    Could this be another entrance through the Wall? Or a breach perhaps?

    And that green screen is frickin HUGE!

  78. Boudica:
    [Discussion about the leaks]

    Regarding Jon’s mission and his arc for the season:

    Finally. Thank you for this 🙂 I agree with everything.

  79. dragonbringer,

    [Contains leak spoilers]

    He could sill hop on Rhaegal who seems to be missing ijn this sequence. Jon is honorable, fearless and brave. But he’s needed and his precious sword. He is one of the leaders for this war.

    No Dany flies them to Eastwatch, watching Jon fighting and admiring it which sounds cringewrothy but Benjen saves him and give him his horse. Jon rides away half dead to safety.

    You complaing about anything with Dany ansd only her. Because you’re concerned only with her whether small or bigger things. Everybody got something or some preffered individuals. 😉

    Nobody questioned Jon after BOTB because there was really no time, but fans did and a lot of them described him as dumb and irresponsible thouht all media platforms which you tried to deny it. Nope, he got plenty of blame and will get it next season too along with Dany. He already has.

    Jon’s popularity, So now it’s a popularity contest? WOTW, Hardhome yes, BOTB not so much, after KITN yes. People know he’s a good guy but they never denied he did dumb choices. Just search youtube, reddit, westeros.org etc. He paid for them, unlike Dany. He seems to be paying a lot more for his mistakes and his victories or if we even call it that way are always earned with a lot of blood and dead people

    No everyone will join him. Why should Dany bring her forces? White Walkers are myths to many people in Westeros. Jon might have good inentions but intentions are not enough.

  80. Boudica,

    Brilliant !! That’s exactly how I picture it too.
    But I imagine that epiphany would just be

    Tyrion telling her that Jon is a good man and if he is indeed telling the truth, then this mission is suicide and they’re all going to their death and she cannot let that happen. I also see Varys coming in and telling Dany that Ned Stark, Jon’s father was the only one who spoke against Robert Baratheon’s plan to have her killed at the Small Council meeting a few years back and that was the main reason why he gave up his position as Hand of the King which ultimately cost him his life. So if Jon is even half the man his father was, she’d do well to believe in him and get her ass up North and save our baby Wolf.

    In a more elegant manner of speech, of course.

  81. Geralt of Rivia: No everyone will join him. Why should Dany bring her forces? White Walkers are myths to many people in Westeros. Jon might have good inentions but intentions are not enough.

    The issue is going to be: how quickly will the White Walkers make it undeniable that they are there. The old idea that the WW had agents among humans (with Littlefinger being a chief candidate) clearly is not panning out. There is no indication that the White Walkers (like, say, Voldemort in the 5th Harry Potter book) see some value in keeping their return secret. When and if they can get through the Wall, then they will: and with some vengeance, I should think. Eventually, everyone is going to know that they are back.

    The question is: what will happen before then? There are any number of possibilities. For example, there might be a flood of Northerners and Wildlings fleeing south well ahead of the WW and their undead army. The southerners would first assume that this is an invasion. After all, it looks to be a hard winter, and the northerners would have missed out on stocking up for this winter because of the War of Five Kings. Thus, the simplest explanation is that they are allying themselves with the Wildlings (who, after all, are basically Northerners-on-Steroids, anyway, at least to Southerners) to take grainaries and cattle for themselves.

    Indeed, we still have not seen the Northerners come to grips with the WW yet. In the final episode, there were some northerners who seemed to think that returning to their individual strongholds to hold out through the winter was sensible. And when Jon refers to the enemy that is the storm, he does not mention the WW by name.

  82. Damn: I misread that as “Bad Wolf Quarry.” I thought that we’d finally get the Doctor Who / Game of Thrones cross-over that we (and by “we,” I mean “I”) have always wanted.

  83. dragonbringer,

    The person who is using it, has used it here multiple times and on Reddit. They are obsessed. I just roll my eyes at them now. It’s not even worth trying to reason.

  84. Boudica,

    People here are so quick to forget that everyone South of the wall doesn’t believe in the white walkers or wights, at all. Even the Nights Watch up to last season didn’t really believe, Jon failed to convince them as well which is why he was stabbed. Thorne and others failed to see the true threat and were stuck fighting their old battles and prejudice vs the Wildlings. Jon basically told his commanders to shut up and follow him, he got killed for it.

    To me it seems like he’s learned from his death. SPOILERS FOR LEAK:

    The wight hunt mission is something that should of been done before, in fact in the books they have several wights captured at the wall and if I recall right, they were testing to see how long it takes a dead human to change into a wight. But this wight hunt mission makes perfect sense from Jons perspective, everyone he talks to seems to be playing the Game of Thrones but for him. He knows who the enemy is, he knows its the White Walkers. But no one believes him, and just like the Nights Watch did they are all stuck in their own little wars not seeing the big picture.

    Jon goes wight hunting to prove to everyone who the real enemy is. How is this so confusing? As for people saying they should know they can’t trust Cersei, well who North of Kings Landing really knows she’s insane? We know because we’ve watched her journey, to everyone else she’s just the former Queen who’s lost all her children and is trying to hold on to the Throne. Well, there won’t be any throne if the White Walkers kill everyone, they are hoping she at least has some semblance of a conscious that she would want to protect either the people or herself. But we know Cersei doesn’t care, she’d gladly watch the whole world burn.

  85. Boudica,

    Can I jump in here? As a fan of the North and Jon, I want him to actually develop into a competent leader. He actually regressed as a leader in Season 6. It made sense with the PTSD Jon is suffering in Season 6, but the parade of idiocy apparently continues in Season 7.

    [The Leaks]

    Here are some main points that I really object to in the leaks.

    1. Allying with Cersei. This shows incredible naivety on Jon’s part. There is no way that Cersei is going to give him a fair deal. Cersei’s survival depends on Dany’s demise. Frankly, Jon and Dany are lucky that Cersei is not as crafty as Tywin and just decided to leave them in the lurch.

    2. Leading the wight hunting mission himself. Jon is way more indispensable alive than he is dead now. Who else is going to lead the final battle? Paralyzed Bran? Sansa? This suggests a continued recklessness on Jon’s part that is unhealthy in a leader.

    3. Sitting around Dragonstone for half the season rather than actually ruling the North. This is done so Jon doesn’t find put R+L=J but makes him look really lazy. He should be North preparing for the final battle, forginger dragon glass weapoms, etc. rather than flirting with Dany.

    4. Kneeling to Dany and giving her the North for absolutely nothing in return.. It makes absolute sense for Jon to swear fealty to save the North, but it makes Dany look really bad. However, that is not how the leaks put it. He essentially gives up his position because Dany feels sad about losing Viserion. Again, this is Jon’s leverage. All he really brings to the table is the fealty of the North. After he bends a knee, he really loses any ability to dictate things as Dany’s equal.

    Also, if you are one of the Northern lords, you should be angry at your king for selling you out to the South and getting absolutely nothing in return for it.

  86. illinidiva,

    [Contains leak spoilers]

    They need even Cersei, but I guess Jaime is the one they need to convince and Euron along with it. Lannisters doesn’t seems to be in much power after ambush. It’s rather Dany who doesn’t go on them because it’ll result in dead bodies, they need them to fight white walkers.

    Jon always does his missions, as LC or even KITN. He’s warrior most of all and Jon knows Beyond the Wall more than the others, except Tormund.

    What is he supposed to do? Sit on his ass at Winterfell and do what? He needs more men, supply, dragonglass and convince others. Sending envoy won’t do much. King going makes this visit all the more important. They can’t forge dragonglass weapon, not without dragons. Rather be part of Sansa and LF feud right? Prepare for white walkers? I mean, he hs people for it. It could be done this way.

    Not trying to rally people for white walkers fight would be irresponsible and out of character. Giving up KITN is weird and probably Jon doesn’t care about title, if it’s going to KITN like King of Dead Land or so.

  87. illinidiva,

    regarding Jon leaks:

    A lot of those points though are actions he supposedly makes late in the season at a point when something HAS to be done.
    1. I wouldn’t call what he tries to do as “allying with Cersei” as much as trying to force an armistice and showing everyone that there is an impending danger against man far greater than civil squabbles. It’s a finale scene and a last chance effort to change everyone’s focus.
    2. Jon probably doesn’t HAVE to include himself in the hunt. However, I don’t think his mindset is to preserve himself to lead later, but to lead NOW. He grew up with Ned’s code of “he who passes the sentence should swing the sword.” That isn’t restricted to simply passing a judgement, but a way of living and leading as well. He plans something dangerous, he’s going to lead it.
    3. The talk of “he should be ruling The North” again. At this stage there is no ruling and preparing that he can do there that is more important than gaining more support. His Lords of the Houses and Tormund should be well equipped with orders to prepare the small numbers they have. Nobody has the heft like Jon does to get more men so he has to do it.
    4. If I remember correctly, Jon doesn’t technically swear fealty or bend the knee to Daenerys until the very end of the finale (supposedly). This is after everything has happened, the hunt and the NK acquiring a dragon, the meeting at the Dragonpit, the battles. They’re on the doorstep of Armageddon. I don’t think there should be such a defeatist attitude in his actions either, such as he’s giving up The North and not getting anything. I don’t believe it will be anything like giving up and he’s obviously getting Dany to fight with him so he actually “wins” with his attempts in the south to gain support.
  88. illinidiva,

    Leak Spoilers:

    1. He is not trying to ally with Cersei. He is trying to stop the human war. Why don’t people get that the Lannister-Dany war can only stop if BOTH PARTIES agree to stop the fighting? Dany unilateral agreeing to stop is not going to work, not if the Lannisters continue to attack her army and allies. That’s why Jon tries to convince the Lannisters, to get them to stop fighting. And he DOES succeed in this. Cersei might have gone back on her word to send her army, but at least Dany won’t have to worry about her army being attacked from behind.

    2. Jon is the only one who has killed a WW and a Wight. At such a time, knowing this, he is not going to send others to do this job. That’s not who show Jon is at least. And he may not expect a paralysed Bran or Sansa to lead the fight against the WWs in case he dies, but he will expect Dany who has 3 dragons, to lead this fight if he were to die.

    3. Should Jon spend his time preparing 5,000 people in the North to face the WWs or convince a person with more than a 100,000 people in her army to join him? If you think all he is doing is flirting in Dragonstone, I have to wonder what show you have been watching. And he has gone to Dragonstone for the dragonglass, so he definitely hasn’t forgotten about that.

    4. As for why he kneels, we don’t really know the context of that scene, but I very much doubt he only kneels because Dany is feeling sad lol. In fact, iirc, in one of the PM’s by Lads, he said that Jon realizes that Sansa and the others will be angry at him for giving up the title, but he would rather be a Lord than be a King of a dead country. So I will hold my opinion until I actually see how that scene goes down.


  89. illinidiva,

    Few questions for you:


    1. Jon has never met Cersei before and in the North beign at the Wall he’s heard pretty much nothing. And the leaks don’t say if LF or anyone is giving him advice, only Sansa would know Cersei and she was a scared little girl at that time in the story. So I wouldn’t say its naïve, hell, Octavian and Antony set aside their differences to take care of Brutus in Roman History. Or if you want to go further, we allied with the Soviet Union during WW2. We’ve seen Cersei come unhinged, but in the North no one has seen or heard anything about her insanity, unless I’ve missed an episode.

    2. Jon is the type of leader who men follow, because he gets down there with the men into the mud and blood. It was one reason he was originally selected as the Lord Commander, Jon led and fought beside his brothers at the Wall and keeping with his character Jon rarely asks people to do what he himself wouldn’t do. I hate mixing books and tv show as I feel these characters are diverging so much, but when he wanted to go to Hardhome, he went himself. He may be reckless, but he’s human. He’s not perfect and I’m okay with this, he makes mistakes, it makes for a better character.

    3. How is this lazy? Again, he needs dragonglass to fight the white walkers, how do you prepare for the final battle without having weapons to fight in that final battle? Only place to get it? Oh, Dragonstone! The North plot has pretty much been settled except for LF. The North is behind Jon, we don’t have enough episodes left to have any backstabbing happen with the Lords of the North, only LF plot will be settled.

    4. I’m not even going to say anything about this one, getting nothing in return? How about thousands and thousands of soldiers, maybe a few Dragons to help fight the White Walkers. And why would the Northern Lords be upset? Selling out? They are aware of the real enemy, they follow their King.

    I need to stop now, too many people here seem to take everything they’ve heard and assume its set in stone. Reminds me of the leaks from last year when people flipped out about Ramsay and how that whole thing was going to go down. Well guess what, in S6 everything happened pretty much how the leak said – and it all worked out just fine. I’m done, need to start just reading the article and ignoring the comment section.


  90. Clob,

    Good to know that 🙂 . I am frankly tired of all the Jon bashing, D&D bashing and show bashing I am reading nowadays.

    Rhaenys Stark,

    Peter, Kit, Emilia and Lena are also nominated! I wonder if the curse of split votes is going to follow them here as well.

  91. [Leaks]

    Allying wtih Cersei:
    The issue is that it is not in Cersei’s interest. What neither Jon nor Dany is thinking of is what happens after they defeat the White Walkers. Cersei is and she knows that Dany is still a threat to her.

    Jon is not focused on the day after and what comes next. They defeat the White Walkers but the mad tyrant who committed an act of terrorism is still queen.. How does that help Westros?

    Jon on Dragonstone:
    Jon could just plead his case to Dany and then leave. He really does not need to spend time on Dragonstone. In fact his time is better served reinforcing the Wall, training men, etc than flirting with Dany. Again this really diminishes Jon’s character for the sake of storytelling like the Battle of the Bastards did.

    There are really two ways that this can go down. Either Dany looks like a petulant tyrant for not helping people who are facing an apocalypse or Jon looks quite dumb for giving up the North for nothing. My understanding is that they went with the latter. Jon literally gives up his title to Dany because she is sad about her dragon. This is the only leverage he has over her. Once he gives it up he becomes her lackey/ underling rather than her equal and doesn’t have the ability to contradict her. He also loses the prestige/ respect that comes with having the position. Remember that Jon is not Lord of Winterfell; he was elected king but Bran would have claim to Winterfell. Ergo, without the title, he is just some mouthy bastard who is hanging around Dany. Why would anyone in Dany’s entourage, any of the armies, or anyone in KL care what he has to say? This is not a democracy or meritocracy; titles do matter in such situations.

  92. ghost of winterfell,


    1. I am assuming thath probably knows about Cersei blowing up the Sept of Baelor. That suggests someone unhinged.

    2. He should definitely lead his men in the final battle but I am not sure why the NW cannot get proof. Why can’ Tormund and the Wildings.

    3. He stays ther for weeks for apparently no reason and does nothing.

    4. What makes the scene so stupid is that Dany apparently is willing to give Jon the armies and dragons without any strings attached because it is in her interest to do so. He literally gives up his only leverage to her for nothing to make her feel better.

    And I found nothing in the Season 6 leaks that was upsetting last year. However, this is not the case with this season. I am getting tired of Jon being so inept and clueless that he makes Ned look like a savvy political operator. It is impossible to root for him as a leader because he walks into obvious trap after obvious trap and makes bad decision after bad decision.

  93. illinidiva,


    well the leaks say that Jon does does this willing so you can almost forget the first scenario presented.

    Why he kneels? Well we’re still missing lots of context. He wouldn’t do it for nothing imo; my speculation is that he does this for life post-war. The North is the first line of defense and will likely be devasted. The North and South will need eachother to survive post the long night.
    We also need to remember that Jon does this in private, and he likely won’t reveal it until after the war (assuming everyone survives, which won’t be the case). The leaks say that Dany respects and admires Jon; she would absolutely listen to him especially since she knows that he has the most experience in dealing with the WW. I don’t think that giving up his title means losing leverage or rank in Dany’s eyes. It wouldn’t surprise me if after the boat scene (we’re talking S8) she proposes a marriage.

  94. Jay Targ,

    Also don’t forget, the North Remembers; “It was the dragons we bowed to… and now the dragons are dead!”

    The North is different from the rest of the Kingdoms, they don’t play the game. They would have no issue accepting Jon bending the knee if it was for a greater cause. And if its revealed to them their King is Stark/Targ…I have no idea how that would play out other then epically.
  95. ghost of winterfell,

    Just leave it.People are ridiculous.Complaining about things they haven’t even seen yet even though I’m sure the complaining will go on even during the season because it’s what they do best.Honestly how can you say you are a fan of someone and fundamentally misunderstand his character they don’t even understand how a drama show goes.Things can’t go according to the protagonist all the time and all this talk about Jon being inept or D&D hating him is baffling like are we watching the same show??Jon is one of the most sympathetic characters his importance and screen time has only grown with the seasons and he is more popular than he has ever been.Only seven people on the internet who proclaim themselves his fans think otherwise lol.Anyway I’m so happy about the critic’s choice nomination I hope they win some.

  96. illinidiva,


    1. I explained to you my reasoning for why Jon is at that Dragonpit and it had nothing to do with Cersei being unhinged or not. He wanted to stop the southern war and he SUCCEEDED.

    2. Tormund and the Wildlings have not taken him to be their king. The reason they follow him is because he leads from the front. And he is the only one who has killed a WW and a wight. Besides, this is how show Jon has always been. It might be a flaw, but this is who he is.

    3. How can he just explain the situation and leave?? Do you expect Dany to just believe him and pledge him the help of her army the minute he opens his mouth? He can’t leave till he ensures her support, which he does not get till the end of the season.

    4. Lads literally said that Jon offers to give up his position IF Dany provides her armies to fight. So how can you be so sure it’s for nothing. Right now we don’t know how this scene will play out. Why not wait until it does? Not once did Lads mention that Dany was willing to give away her dragons and army, no strings attached. I have no idea where you got this from.

    As for Jon losing his status to Dany, remember two things, this scene happens in private and Bran and San know that he is the rightful heir to the IT.

    If you still insist on seeing Jon in this way, I don’t know what else to tell you except, stop rooting for him then?
    Btw, I have seen these arguments, using these same words on Reddit Freefolk. It’s like a circlejerk over there lol with people going into meltdown mode all the time.

  97. Jay Targ,


    Why would she care what he has to say after the war? Sleeping with someone does not mean you care about their political advice. It isn’t like Daario had any influence.

    I also do not think that Jon has any desire to be the male version of Cersei, essentially a figurehead. He would probably decline the offer and go back to the NW after the war.

  98. illinidiva,


    the leaks state that she respects him, so why wouldn’t she care what he’s got to say. The leaks also state that she thinks his worldview is not that much different from hers. I’ve got no doubt that she would very seriously consider anything that he has to say. Even more so if it has to do with the WWs or the North

    Maybe so but the NW will probably cease to exist. Jon and Dany still have the R+L=J reveal coming in S8 and it will undoubtly have an impact on them.

  99. [Leaks being discussed]

    Irina Stark,

    Yes that could also actually be a great idea. And it would be good for Tyrion. Perhaps Tyrion really believes Jon. He has seen dragons now and he was at the Wall himself, he spoke to Jeor Mormont and he was in the Small council meeting when they received the raven from the Nights Watch.
    Tyrion is in a good position to understand what is going on.


    1. He really does not need to ally himself with Cersei, at this stage.

    But he does want to let the South know about the White Walker threat. He obviously wants Dany as his first ally, she has Dragonglass, soldiers and dragons.
    But Dany is not going to help him if Cersei and the Lannisters keeps on being a treat to her position.
    No one is coming to his aid as long as these wars in the South continues. And they are killing important resources such as soldiers. It is extremely illogical to keep on fighting each other.
    Cersei doesn’t need to ally herself with them, there just has to be a temporary true or a ceasefire. If Cersei does decide to ally herself with them, then they have more soldiers.

    Of course they can never trust Cersei, but this an extraordinary apocalyptical event. This is not a normal war, this is about the survival of Westeros and the human race.

    I think almost everyone would rather just see Cersei dead, but things are never that simple. It is difficult to understand what exactly fans want here. It seems most fans predicted that characters such as Cersei and Littlefinger will quickly and neatly die off before the White Walkers can attack. And then we will see all of the good characters who are left stand together as one and fight against the White Walkers.

    When has ASOIAF/ GOT ever really been that simple? Where is the conflict, or the heart being in conflict with itself, and the struggle in that scenario?
    It has always been implied that everyone would have to work together at some point to defeat the White Walkers. Why did people think that it would only be good characters who would have to work together?

    Jon’s whole arc has always been about working with people who he doesn’t really want to work with, that is the Nights Watch in a nutshell. At first he did not want to bond with his fellow brothers who were criminals, then he goes out on the big ranging party and he has to work together with the Wildlings, then he has to return to Castle Black and work with people like Alliser Throne and Jonos Slynt against the Wildlings who he has gained some respect for in the meantime. He tries to unite the Wildlings and the Nights Watch, who has always been fighting each other. He has to ask the Boltons for help, for the Nights Watch.
    This is something that Jon has always had to do, and he understands it better then most characters. Yes, Cersei is completely untrustworthy but that does not change the big picture or their overall situation.

    2. Obviously Jon doesn’t need to lead the wight hunt, it would properly be better for him to stay behind.
    But this is Jon we are talking about, he was not raised as a King. He was only chosen quite recently, and he has more experience with White Walkers and wights than anyone else.
    The North is different and there are different manners of Kingship. There is also the idea that a good leader would never ask something of his followers if he isn’t prepared to do it himself. Like Jon said to Ramsay, “would your people fight for you if you are not willing to fight for them?”
    That is much more in-line with the Northern way of Kingship and leadership. Robb also used to fight in the vanguard. Jon leads from the front, that is his style.

    3. We will see Jon doing some ruling in North during the first two episodes. Jon will have to sit around at Dragonstone, because he is there on a diplomatic mission. He is there to negotiate with another ruler.

    They dont have any dragonglass in the North, their fighting men and soldier are severely depleted. So what is Jon going to be doing in the North to prepare for this imminent White Walker invasion?
    If he sit around in the North he will only be dragged into or embroiled into Sansa and Littlefinger’s Southern poltical games. That would be much worse for the North in the long run.

    He is going South to negotiate for dragonglass, and he is trying to secure an allience in order to save the North. Dany has dragons and thousands of soldiers. He is actually being a good ruler here, he is trying to save his people.
    Negotiations are two sided, Jon might want to conclude these negotiations as soon as possible, but Dany does not have any rush at the moment. Hence why we see Jon making another plan, to bring a wight as proof. If Jon fails at these negotiations the North is doomed. He and Dany might flirt with each other, but for Jon these are some very high stakes.

    4. We have some random points about what will happen. We dont know exactly what will happen, it will be months before we are able to see what will actually happen. In the meantime we can try to fill in the gaps. We can fill in the gaps with the worst case scenario or we can try to make some logical sense.

    Jon has just seen the Nights Kings and the army of the dead. He just saw the Nights King kill a dragon, which is suppose to be their best weapon against the White Walkers. He has just almost been killed fighting against the undead. In other words the danger is once again very real for him.
    Why wouldn’t he give up his Kingship under those circumstances? If the White Walkers sweep through the North there will be nothing left to be King of.

    He is not just willing to bend the knee for nothing in return, he is willing to bend the knee if Dany gives him soldiers and weapons. Yes, I agree it would look a bit selfish if Dany is only willing to help him if he submits to her. She has now witnessed the destruction of the White Walkers for herself.
    Which is why I dont believe that will happen. According to the leaks this all happens in a private moment, and the leaks also said that Dany tells Jon that he does not have to bend the knee. Dany will have a chance to really witness Jon’s character during this wight hunt. I think she will be impressed by his will and display to save his people. She is not used to this type of leadership.

    I agree that I think it is important for the show to really display how Jon can be a good leader, or perhaps good to strong of a word, at least an effective ruler this season.

    And Jon will be very successful. With his negotiations he will gather dragons glass and soldiers for the North.
    In episode 7, Dany and Jon goes North, that means he was successful. He will achieve everything he set out to achieve. Dany will be going North with him with her soldiers. He might even have negotiated a temporary truce with Cersei.
    Jaime will also leave Cersei and go North to fight against the White Walkers. He has now also warned the South against the White Walkers.
    He will be completely successful, and he will have negotiated all of this with just the one death of Thoros of Myr.
    Seriously, I dont know how much more successful he can be in one season.

    Of course the Northern Lords wouldn’t be happy if Jon did bend the knee to Dany. But as I have said, I think she would rather fight with Jon as an equal. But even if he did bend the knee to her, what are the Northern Lords going to do?

    He will arrive in the North with a fresh army and dragons, sure they could ask him and Dany to leave the North, but as soon as they see the first wights and White Walkers they will beg for them to return.

  100. If I personally decided to take a trip north of the wall, I may be inclined to bring along someone that has the WW equivalent of Kryptonite.

  101. Boudica,

    I think it’s really important for the writers to keep the balance on both parts, as they have so far in the series.

    I want Dany to be impressed by Jon’s character and ability to lead who is so different from the rulers she’s met this far and I also want Jon to be impressed with Dany being willing to risk her life and her children to save him and a bunch of other people she doesn’t know. It needs to be ballanced, I need them to be on the same page when they sail North, equals united by a common purpose. I’m also curious to see how they’ll both interact with Jaime later on.
  102. Is anyone else having problems lately where the page keeps taking you to the bottom and playing an ad when you are trying to scroll through reading comments? I’ll be reading halfway through and it all of a sudden keeps bumping me down past the comment section and to the ad with audio.

  103. I only hope they will introduce ice spiders… If Dany had dragons the NK must have ice spiders…

  104. dothrakian raven:
    I only hope they will introduce ice spiders… If Dany had dragons the NK must have ice spiders…

    I think that ice spiders are actually just wights. Last season kinda proved that when they were crawling along the ceiling of BRs cave.

    I suspect that this is one aspect of the WW mythology that became somewhat distorted over 8000 years.

  105. Am I the only one who’s frustrated by the fact that we’ve got these amazing leaked photos of the Northern sets, and yet nobody mentions them- instead, we have the same culprits bitching and moaning over and over again about Jon and Dany?

  106. I would be gutted if Jon gives up KITN. When so many people have come to a very difficult decision to endorse a leader and he soon tosses it way–albeit with the greater good in mind–they should write him off and pick another. This is especially true because they overcame their own scruples and prejudices to exalt him, especially over Ned Stark’s trueborn daughter who, though totally inept in most things, did call in the favour that saved the day at the BOTB. The North and we remember–they want independence, not a Southron overlord/lady. And if Tyrion and Varys etc can’t convince Dany to believe Jon and cooperate with him, all have failed their tasks. Lives hang in the balance.

    Speaking of lives, considering Cersei’s wiles, her mass extermination by Wildfire, and her obstinacy in the face of possible apocalyptic invasion, I still think she should die in the final episode. I agree with many of you speculate Jaime will abandon her to go north. Tyrion’s diplomatic portfolio probably eliminates him as the valonqar. So I’m hoping Arya and Sandor do what they’re meant to do: take out Gregor and Cersei.

    Finally, I’m as antsy as anyone for Arya (and Sansa) news. While I’d rather have Arya news, I did see on IMDB that Maisie was named by People Magazine as one of “25 Women Changing the World”. And last week the Telegraph (UK) had a fashion story about some of her quirky, youthful, and creative outfits. She’s a charmer.

  107. Apollo,

    I am not buying it! I want the real thing ? Visually would be stunning. Wights are quite boring and we have seen loads of them. If the producers want to make things interesting in the army of the dead then they have to expand its visual impact…

  108. Boudica,


    AFAIK Lads never said that Dany expressly tells Jon he doesn’t have to bend the knee. This part was added by somebody else who claimed he also had inside knowledge, but had nothing to back his/her claim. The original leaks are getting embellished by other people.

    What Lads said was that Jon offers to pledge himself to Dany if she will provide her armies for this war. That’s it. Based on this, my conclusion was that before this wight expedition, Dany does demand that Jon bend the knee. However, after this event, Jon by himself will say that he is willing to bend the knee if she helps him, even though at this moment she doesn’t really once again ask him to do it. But there was no mention by the original leaker that she will try to stop him from doing it either.

  109. Stark Raven’ Rad,

    If that decision takes place, then ultimately for Jon it will be a decision between honoring the wishes of his people or honoring the lives of Westeros as a whole. We know Jon. He’ll do what he feels is right, regardless of what he stands to lose. Titles and crowns? Well he may have dreamt of them but never really pursued them. Saving people? That is his thing.

    I do want to say that it didn’t really seem to me that the Northern lords had that much trouble bending the knee to Ned’s son once Winterfell was back under the control of the wolf regime. This is the Northern part of Westeros, they are hard people and they feel under siege not only by the South’s games of power but by the incoming Winter. Sansa may be Ned’s true born daughter but she has little to offer them except her legitimacy. For all they know, legitimate or not, Jon is as much a child of Ned as is Sansa, plus he’s a proven warrior who by now has the reputation of being selfless and honorable. I don’t think the Lords even considered crowning Sansa. I don’t think they would have considered crowning Bran either. Arya? A sword-wielding Arya would have had more chance. Really from the Northern point of view, the decision isn’t a hard one at all. I think their hesitation came from Jon’s stance on the wildlings, that was a more bitter pill to swallow than his bastard status.

    Having said that, I do think the Northerners will NOT be pleased if their King bends the knee without their consent. Some may never accept his reasoning, regardless of how logical it actually is. In the end though if Dany outlasts Jon, I think she’ll relent and will grant the North its independence and leave them be as they rebuild. The destruction will be too extensive to take on all the separate kingdoms. If Jon outlasts Dany then my guess is that he gets unhappily stuck with the Iron Throne and then he grants the North its independence under their Wolf Queen, be it Sansa or Arya. Either way, the North will be free.

  110. ghost of winterfell,

    [Leaks spoilers]

    If he bends the knee after wight hunt, what is the poijt of it? She saw white walkers and what they can do. Why kneeling after it? It really doesn’t make sense.
  111. dothrakian raven,

    “Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.”

  112. Geralt of Rivia,

    In my mind, if the events do occur in that specific order, it would be because

    Dany saved their lives and lost one of her children in order to do it. Dany first asks Jon to kneel but he refuses because he doesn’t owe her anything, he doesn’t completely trust her n’or knows what kind of person she is. In his mind, she needs to help them not because he asks it but because the world needs it, it’s not a service he’s asking for himself but for the world and everyone else, he’s the sort of messenger sent there to warn people of the Long Night. The difference here is that Dany later leaves DS to go save Jon and the others without having any moral responsability to do it, she chooses to go and help them of her own accord and fights to rescue them because she cares for Jon, Jorah and their safety. Jon naturally would bend the knee not only as a final request for her aid during the Long Night but also to show his gratitude after realising what kind of person she is, she jeopardized her own life to save his even though they’re pretty much strangers.

    I don’t see how it could play out differently if that’s the chronological order of events.

  113. Anyone know how they make fake ice like that?

    Whatever it is, it must be pretty tough stuff since they’re parking those diggers on it.

  114. Boudica,

    Even if Tyrion suspects that the specific explanations are probably incorrect, he will be apt to think that something is wrong. If you are driving down the highway near an ocean and you cannot see because of all the mist, then you are incorrect when you state that you are in danger of crashing because of fog; you are in danger of crashing because of a marine layer. However, whether it is fog, a marine layer, or a heavy metal concert dry ice machine on steroids, the general problem is nearly identical. Tyrion might roll his eyes at “fog” but he’ll accept that there is low visibility for some reason.

    EDIT: how is that for a spoiler free discussion of a spoiler? 😀

  115. Danny: Having said that, I do think the Northerners will NOT be pleased if their King bends the knee without their consent.

    It was the to Dragons they bowed and the Dragons are alive.

    So, yes, I think that the Northerners will accept it. At some point, they’ll learn that they chose a Targaryen bastard, not a Stark bastard, as their King, too.

  116. Apollo: I suspect that this is one aspect of the WW mythology that became somewhat distorted over 8000 years.

    heh, after 8000 years, it should not even exist anymore, never mind be distorted! We have no 8000 year old oral traditions. Look at it this way: when Hannibal took elephants to Rome, it had been less than 3000 years since elephants had lived in Europe. Elephants must have figured prominently in the lore of Early Europeans, given how ubiquitous they were in carvings, paintings, etc. But 2500 years later, Europeans had absolutely zero idea what these monsters were.

    So, really, the idea of the Northerners having even traces of these stories is just as fantastical as magic and dragons.

  117. Wimsey,

    Honestly the whole ASOIAF timeline would be much better if heavily compressed. The last Long Night should have happened a few thousand years ago, not 8000 years. The same goes for everything else.

    The funny thing is that medieval historiography is piss poor, even regarding the not-so-distant classic era (be it our Greco-Roman empires or ASOIAF’s Valyrian Freehold). They were useless about anything pre-classic; such as the Dawn Age (which is freaking pre-writing!) and the Age of Heroes in Martin’s world. So in my mind I can imagine that these events actually took place in the last, say, five thousand years at most. That’s my headcannon, anyway.

  118. Why does every article’s comment section have to erupt into Leaked Content comments now? You all discuss this in the forum and it makes it hard to enjoy reading the comments when so many people are only talking about the Leaked Content.

  119. Boudica,

    Why should the woman who ended slavery in Essos be humbled by Jon Snow? It said in the show there were 200000 slaves in Yunkai. Not to mention all the slaves in Mereen she freed. Yet she is going to be humbled by Jon Snow? That’s just dumb and a little sexist.

  120. Danny,

    Why should she help? The Stark’s were complicit in the murder of her entire family. I don’t care that Ned (hey howland stab the sword of the morning in the back so I can use Dawn to kill him) hid Jon. He didn’t do it for any reason other than his own selfish ones. If I were Dany the Starks would burn with the rest. She doesn’t need Jon Snow or his paltry northern army. She has over 100000 in her khalassar and another 8000 unsullied and 3 dragons. She alone has the power to stand against the NK. What does Jon Snow offer? A few war torn houses that wouldn’t back him until after he won. I like Jon as much as the next guy but I like Dany more and don’t want her making goo goo eyes at Jon I fail at everything Snow. She didn’t need him or anyone when freeing slaves she doesn’t need him now. He needs her desperately and that is how it should play out. If he means to save the north he better beg the Mother of Dragons for help.

  121. jdtargstark,

    Way to make your criticism clear. I’m not a Stark fanboy like most and honestly don’t care for them at all. The Starks were complicit in the murder of Danys brother and sister. It doesn’t matter that Ned was upset. He was fine with it after he “defeated” the sword of the morning. I guess it was ok to kill innocent children because his sister choose Rhaegar instead of the Usurper and the Stark men got themselves killed over it. As far as Jon and the rest where am I wrong? The major northern houses would not join him until after he had already won (and don’t forget all was lost without Sansa) and they are ragged after fighting King Robb’s war. What exactly does Jon have to offer Dany? Anything? Bueller?

  122. “Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding, He is the White Wolf, The King in the North!”

    Jon has a far stronger claim to the throne that Dany, Once he finds out! also Jon has the temperament to rule – he wouldn’t burn high lords alive! the kingdoms would have peace and would probably thrive (Once the Night King is defeated!) overall Jon would be a far better King than Dany would be a queen, specially if Tyrion remains Hand of the King!

    The Mother of Dragons makes bad decisions from the second she let the witch near Khal Drogo’s wound all she needed to do was salt solution the cut and stitch it up! you would have though that Ser Jorah – a Battle hardened Knight would know how to treat a basic wound! she doesn’t deserve to be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms any more than Visery’s did.

    How many times has Dany risked her life to save the realm? Ever since the Great Ranging in S2 Jon has been on the front lines defending the wall and the realm from what lies beyond which ultimately lead to his death at the hands of the mutineers in Castle Black.

    Jon Snow will lead the Seven Kingdoms to victory through the long winter, Risking his life to saves others yet again as some of you have mention regarding The Wight Hunt in S7 – and I’m sure that it wont be the Last time! Dany as always is going to try and help but ultimately it will be her fault that the Army of the dead gets past the wall! I dont remember Jon giving the Night King such a powerful weapon that it could bring down the wall!

    Valar morghulis,

  123. The only lake with an island that I can think of is the Gods Eye. Which is connected to the CotF.

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