The latest photos from Northern Ireland, courtesy of the Daily Mail, bring with them a huge spoiler and a visual confirmation that fans have been waiting for. We’ll get right to it, and tuck that photo beneath the cut!
MAJOR SPOILER:
A photo of Kit Harington, at work on a snowy field, confirms what pretty much everyone knew by now: Jon Snow has returned from the dead and will be gracing our screens in season 6.
Kit as Jon appears to be wearing Stark-style clothing, rather than Night’s Watch black clothing as he has been since season 1. He really has returned as a new man!
The Daily Mail believe the woman under the umbrella to be Carice van Houten, but I don’t think so.
Our sources have been reporting for some time that Harington was working on a major battle sequence in N.I., around Saintfield.
HODOR!!!
Finally
EDIT: Doesn’t he look a little samurai-ish?
The North remembers!
Nice to see Jon out of the black…..
Let’s not forget to neglect, he’s wearing something brand new. Not the black… padded armor.. you know, very similar to armor worn by a certain house. THE STARKS.
HYPE IS COMING!
Is that Stark uniform?
At this point is anyone actually surprised by this?
#worstkeptsecret
Stark gear, Stark colours. Jon Stark, get hype!
Say it ain’t snow!
Is he gonna execute Ser Alliser and the rest of the mutineers? I lean towards no but I’m not sure. I mean he had no problem killing Karl and the others at Craster’s and what Alliser and the others did was pretty much the same thing.
The Eunuch,
I didn’t catch that at first. I guess he’s officially not a member of the Night’s Watch anymore?
I know it was the worst kept secret of all time but it’s still f***ing amazing to see that.
The Tattered Prince,
Yes, he does.
He’s not wearing black, so he’s free of the Night’s Watch. Jon Stark/Targaryen confirmed.
Hopefully he just rocks the man bun in between shots
So far we get an epic fight with Jon dressed as Ned against Boltons, we get Riverlands with Jaime, Arya and Freys and maybe red wedding 2, we get some Iron Islands, the KL is a living hell, flashbacks from Bran …… and we still haven’t any clue of what happen with Sansa, Tyrion , Cersei, Briene, “black Loras” e.t.c
If they manage to keep all the supposed signed actors’ characters alive (after all the Jon, Stannis thing the previous season it will not be as great to kill a fan favourite this season again) and kill some Boltons or Freys… this will be the best season ever..!!
I really wish that we people will stop asking if Jon is alive now, and start asking for some real story spoilers.
I am really excited!!
Linda & Elio will not like this.
He’s not wearing black anymore
About that rumor of Benjen’s return. Now we see Jon in Stark clothes again…
Maybe Benjen indeed returns and tells the secret about Jon’s mother, making him finally realize that he is a real Stark.
S6 is gonna be awesome.
A girl is geeked, and he’s wearing Stark battle-leather.
Darksianna,
This is the happiest day of my life.
Darksianna,
My sentiments exactly; we all knew he was going to be back, but to actually see him, and in Stark clothing, great!
Not necessarily. The mutinies at Craster’s killed the Old Bear because they hated the Night’s Watch. Ser Alliser and the others killed Jon to protect, in their perspective, the Night’s Watch.
Now that death has released Jon of his oath to the Night’s Watch, all hail Jon Stark
HE IS RISEN!
Man, that is so refreshing to see. I can’t wait to find out exactly how he’s brought back. It’s clear Mel will be involved somehow. I’m hoping for a Dany-style revival, rising from the ashes of a funeral pyre. Might be why he has new clothes there.
TheMannis,
Linda and Elio can get in a boat in row. They’re not liked by pretty much anyone outside of their sycophants on Westeros.org… all five of them.
OH MY GOD THAT IS THE STARK UNIFORM! I CANNOT YOU GUYS I LITERALLY CANNOT.
TheMannis,
Someone go tell her. She wanted to spoil the ending of S6, I think it’s fair someone spoils her.
Hype is strong with this one 🙂
He does! With that man-bun. Jon Stark looks quite different from the dead Jon Snow. They were right: Jon Snow is dead. Jon Stark lives.
And Emmy for Outstanding drama series goes to GoT season 6!
Now that he’s back, I wonder if he is still aware of the doom marching on the wall (I mean he has to remember right)? I’m having trouble understanding why Jon would forfeit the fight against the Others to march against the Bolton’s? Hmmmm….questions….with such a huge battle, the dead will just be soldiers for the Night King’s army.
Damn, the show has become canon now ? Will they have to rewrite tWoIaF ?
That’s not much snow in that field.
McMannis,
Hellyeah! Donnin’ that Stark attire once again!
Can’t wait for every news publication on earth to publish this
mau,
And S7,..And S8…. seriously, they deserve it.
The Tattered Prince,
He looked like Eddard..
I knew he was coming back, but man it was great to see
Kill the boy, and let the man be born…
The Tattered Prince,
He looks just like Ned. Northern leathers, half-up man bun. BRB there is something in my eye.
Just like their conga line of stabby-stabby FTW, there will be line of folks to take out the nationalist mutineers, including Ghost, Wun Wun, Tormund, Mel, Edd, and the butcher with the huge knife.
I can’t keep up with all these articles!
Can anybody see if he still has Longclaw?
What is that stake coming it of the ground in the first picture looks like it’s for burning someone
I am so excited my breath is coming out in squees.
*squee*
*squee*
*squee*
TheMannis,
My hope is he realizes there’s a ticking clock and they need to immediately consolidate the North to defend against the coming onslaught. He can lead the Northern armies and Wildlings to crush the Boltons. Then they can turn their attention to defending the Wall.
Mother’s Milk haha.
Good to see Jon back.
S6 will really be a season of resolution.
Jon (Stark?) will finally leave NW and he will finally find out about R+L=J.
Dany will finally reconnect with Dothraki and leave Essos.
Rickon will finally return to the show.
Starks will finally have their reunion.
Starks will finally retake WF.
Arya will leave Braavos.
Martells and Greyjoys will finally become relevant to the plot.
Bran’s power will finally mean something to the plot.
We will see Freys and Riverrun again.
According to Los Siete Reinos, this whole thing is being called
by the extras.
Wonder if the reveal of his resurrection won’t be until episode 9
Jon’s Know,
It might be no accident the show made us remember Benjen before Jon’s stabbing. He will be back. There is no other logical, dramatic choice to reveal Jon’s parentage without introducing an entirely new character (i.e. Howland Reed).
Daily Mail: Mother’s Milk, Mother’s Milk. The title of season 5’s finale is Mother’s Milk ha Mad Max ftw. And they think he’s dressed in blacks? Are they colourblind? lol top notch journalism…
It does provide a good feeling to see this picture even tho it was all but confirmed. The hype train is about to derail…..
mau,
I’ve waited for this since 2005!!! Finally the story moves!!
You can’t imagine how excited I am!!
You mean #HypeIsHere.
And not sure how much hype this fandom can take anymore LOL Nice to see the baby heading home 🙂
Hopefully he has Longclaw and Ghost at his side for the ep9 battle.
Tywin of the Hill,
Holy shit that’s an awesome name!
I can’t see anyone beating Ramsey and his 20 good men.
I got so pumped when I saw this pic and then I noticed in the top left corner of the pic is a dude I went to college with who got his job cuz he knew the vfx coordinator who also hinted I could get on GoT possibly in the future if I had the money to move to l.a.
Butt hurt is what I am since I has no money. But Jon Snow is Stark gear makes the hype flow strong.
anotherstark,
LOL
“Ghost…”
I think everyone assumed he’d be coming back, so confirmation of that isn’t much of a spoiler. But that he’d be, apparently, going Stark? That’s a HUGE spoiler. He could’ve gone that route, stayed with the Night Watch, gone evil, or something else entirely; and we didn’t really have any evidence of what it’d be. Now we know.
So exciting!
Mihnea,
Jon only died in 2011… 😀
impuregold,
Lol I’m imagine Jon comes back from death then Ramsay just just needs 10 good men this time and kills jon
impuregold,
Is that meant as a funny litle joke? Or a serious complaint?
Just so I know how to respond.
impuregold,
Yeah, I don’t even think the Night’s King stands a chance against Ramsay and his 20 Good Men.
impuregold,
Go to Reddit with those stupid jokes.
TormundsWoman,
I meant the other storylines, that Mau has cited.
He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire
But there still is the “loyalist” faction and the Wildlings (who also will be very loyal to Jon at this point) against the greatly outnumbered “nationalist” faction.
OR….. what Hodor’s Bastard wrote!
Still, there are lots of possiblities. What if Mel & Davos spirit Jon out after saving him, and deliver him to the (say) the Umbers? Jon might not actually “desert” the Night Watch: after all, they’ve already executed him.
Regarding the woman under the umbrella, she does look like van Houten, but the fact that she’s wearing a blue rain slicker suggests that she’s crew.
Oddly, the guy in red next to Kit looks like Alfie Allen: but the hair is too light, and that’s not a style they’ve used for Theon.
What does this say? With low resolution shots, lots of people look like lots of other people!
Sunfyre,
Right, or maybe he plans on getting as far south as possible and the Bolton’s are a pit stop on that priority?? LOL THE HYPE IS INFURIATING!
The Dragon Demands,
What is this even supposed too mean? That he will warg? I highly doubt that.
Rob said Grey wind’s name before dying, and he didn’t warg.
Darkstar,
I would imagine they CGI in some extra snow.
It kinda looks like the Bolton flaying X to me from this angle.
In love with Jon Stark!
TheMannis,
Jon needs to count on everything and that includes WW breaching the Wall. He saw how powerful they can be and he might think they’ll have some trick up their sleeves.
If they want to beat WW, he will need to unite a lot more people tha he currently has. And good start is, if he can help Northern lords with Boltons. Simple as that. Let’s not forget, how sweet revenge can be. I’m not even sure that Vale, Northern lords, Widlings will be enough to defeat them. Maybe they can hold them for some time, but to defeat them. You need even more than that. We all saw massacre at Hardhome and how quickly WW almost triple their legions.
Now all we need is a Stephen Dillane sighting and we good. 😉
Fez,
Jon Stark is the most logical direction for his character.
Everything else was either lame or unconnected with the plot.
Just like other similar character’s theories that care more about symbolism than actual story.
Dany staying in Essos, Jaime becoming part of BwB, Arya becoming a wolf,…
In the panoramic pic, that’s a Boltan flayed-man cross Jon is standing near…I hope to see a Bolton or two, tied on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8zbDP7gotI
Cheers people, for the Azor Ahai reborn!
Zombies That Were Promised,
No.
Exit81,
Good call!
Looks like a flaying X-cross to me as well….
TheMannis,
I am thinking his motives are now similar to Stannis’ motives before…er, ya know…
He will try to solidify power in the north in order to better protect the realm from the Others…I hope.
Mihnea,
I mean seriously, if they can Win for S5…considered to be the worst season so far (which I still personally loved!) they are going to continue to shut out the Emmy’s. The only competition they really had before was Breaking Bad, and since that has ended…I think GoT is going to sweep the next few years until it is over. The momentum is too high at this point
Maybe reporters will stop asking the cast if Jon Snow is alive now.
Honestly, though, when I saw the “huge spoilers” title I was imagining something like the outcome of a Jon vs. Ramsay fight scene. Jon merely being alive has been so obvious and well-reported on this site that this really doesn’t feel like that big a deal.
Damn straight….but only on the page.
McMannis,
Not a “uniform,” but definitely… http://www.scifinow.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ned-stark-616×410.jpg
TheMannis,
To consolidate the north for the battle to come.
By the God’s, Ramsay better not fight shirtless and unleash his hounds or the North is in VERY big trouble!
Mihnea,
Robb said “Mother” before dying.
Sean C.,
Not even Jon looking Ned-like in with hair tied back in in Stark armor?
I’ve always wondered how Jon would be “post death” and now we know he goes full-on Stark afterwards…. Well, at least for a while! XD
Snow zombie samurai warg
Both produces tell the story when they met George for making ASOIAF a tv show, about 4h later, George asks the question: “who you guys think is Jon’s mother?”
This proofs to me that Jon is indeed has a major role in the story. He may not live until the end, but there is more storyline for Jon.
And in season 3/4 Mel “learns” the ressurection, and in episode 510 she comes back to castle black right before Jon’s kill, i am pretty sure she is behind Jon’s coming back to life.
Tywin of the Hill,
Didn’t he also called for Grey Wind? In the books I mean. Haven’t read ASOS in a long while, so I may be wrong.
Yeah the first thing I noticed was the change in clothing; I wasn’t sure if it was one of those cases where the actual costume isn’t the same color as it appears onscreen or not.
The smoking gun.
Bard,
Indeed!
Smoke and…. salt?
No
Bard,
the smoking BUN!
What is dead may never die. ManBun Stark returns.
Pigeon,
BunJon Stark?
Jon dying and being resurrected (by Mel) as Jon Stark who rushes to retake Winterfell is probably the most boring way to move the story forwards after the stabbing. Of course we don’t know anything about the story yet and it’ll make sense that he is simply released from his vows and goes south but after Hardhome it’s a bit tough sell.
Ghost vs Ramsays bitches
Bun Bun…everyone’s favorite Giant.
He says “Jeyne” then “Mother” then “Grey Wind” before Roose stabs him in the books. In the show, he only says “Mother”.
Great to have 900% confirmation BUT between shots or not there’s no excuse good enough to justify a man bun
Stark colors or Targaryan colors? Or both? Is the man-bun an official part of the new uniform?
I’m in HEAVEN!!!!! Kit you rock!!!
HE’S FREE!!!
Jon’s revenge is coming and I can’t wait!!!! 🙂
Plus>>> Carice 😉
OMG Looks amazing!!!!
I looked at this article because I’d already read the spoilers about Kit being involved in a big battle scene. But, boy, have I got to stop looking at these spoilers. I’m already too excited and I’m going to ruin Season 6 for myself if I’m not careful.
After seeing Jon Snow basically dressed as Ned Stark, in a Stark uniform, I’m just going to be watching Season 6 on tenterhooks waiting for this episode.
Now that I’ve seen Jon Snow alive and well with my own eyes, I should be satisfied and try to avoid spoilers like the plague from now on.
I can’t wait to find out what happens between him and the Night’s Watch.
LOL! Well done, well done…. 😀
Kneel as Wun Wun….and rise again Bun Bun!
Brandon,
Yes he has Longclaw, I have a replica scabbard and sword in my room and I recognise the brass frame of the scabbard and the cross guard and belt.
We all pretty much knew Jon would come back in some form, but to actually see Kit standing there, in Stark gear….be still my beating heart!!!
Holy crap, the hype train just hit top gear for me. I can not wait for the new season!!
Reason #854256 why they’re lovingly referred to as The Daily Fail.
Assuming that is the Stark uni he is wearing, where did he get it? Or from whom?
Cumsprite,
Fair question! XD
If the episode is later in the season as expected, maybe he picked it up from SmallJon or Stark loyalist en route to Winterfell?
Cumsprite,
Maybe he brought those clothes with him to the wall?
STARK ARMOR!! HYPED!!!
Cumsprite,
From Michele Clapton.
Sort of related, has anyone seen this:
Emikia Clarke in her new GQ interview said…”We’ve got the red lady [Melisandre]… but what would she bring him back as? She’s got to take something for herself. Let’s just say I’m optimistic.”
So in order for Melisandra to bring Jon back, she has to take something for herself. Wonder what that’s going to be? Is it an object or is it part of Jon’s personality or soul?
Phil Necro,
That video is VERY well done! Thanks for the link.
Cumsprite,
The Gap, probably.
El-Bobby,
I’m not sure if Clarke doesn’t just mean that Mel needs motivation to resurrect him.
Redstar,
That’s the Daily Mail for you
I believe Robb did warg into Grey Wind, then he was promptly killed again as Grey Wind. It’s a popular belief.
Hey guys! I know you all went stabby stabby and shit. But wouldya do me a solid and let me up into my pad so I can get some clothes? My current outfit has a shit ton of holes in it. Thanks!
ManBun Stark, GET HYPE!
Words cannot express how stoked I am for Season 6 😀
Shreeek!! Sorry, too much excitement for this girl.
Catchy, I like it.
I love seeing him in Stark clothes! Yay!
Cumsprite,
Lol Don’t worry the plot will majestically create a way for him get his fancy new Stark armor.
I think him trying to get rid of the Boltons can be a smart move. The North is not strong divided. He needs to bring all of the North together, and to do that, he’s got to get rid of the cancer that is the Boltons, and all those who follow them.
No big deal to light a huge bonfire to not add to the army of the dead.
Nick Stark,
FYI That alleged season 6 summary floating around is extremely fake.
I don’t think those clothes are 100% Stark exclusive. I think Ser Jory also wore them (although he was sworn to House Stark), and they could just be a traditional Northern style of clothing.
Of course, Jon wearing them is meant to call back to the clothing Starks wore in Season 1, but I just don’t think the clothes necessarily have to be only for Starks.
Could it be Robb’s clothes?
Ghost vs Ramsay’s hounds…CANINE BOWL CONFIRMED!!!!
Tywin of the Hill,
Yeah, I’ve talked to Javi about this. The extras I spoke with were calling it something else. But it’s too spoiler-y so I’m going to post it. I don’t know if it has an official name- sounds like people are just coming up with their own names in their own circles.
You know what’s reeeeaaallly nice about this? It’s going to shut up all those silly people who insisted that Jon was going to come back with blue eyes as a White Walker prince.
Phil Necro,
Wow…what a highlight reel!
I bet my bottom dollar that Shereen’s death was the sacrifice to bring Jon back. ‘Waking dragons from stone’ (grey scale) and since it was confirmed by D&D as a yet to happen book plot.
Oy vey.
hodor,
I want you to figure a better story then genius,please come up with one .
Is it just me, or does the person to the right of Kit with the shoulder-length reddish hair and red windbreaker jacket look like….. someone we know?
What’s with the blue sleeves, though? I don’t remember Ned or other Starks wearing blue. I thought that grey was their regular color, though in Ned’s case we usually saw him with brown leather armor on top.
Is that Miguel Sapochnik with the walkie talkie?
Oh you spoiler tease! XD
C’mon!
Just because I respect the decision doesn’t mean I have to like it, does it? XD
It does seem like he’s accepting his Starkness and doesn’t know about the Targ bit yet. The new King in the North!!
TheMannis,
Hey looking at your name it finally came up to me that unlike Jon there has been no confirmation of Stephen Dillane on the set which means Stannis is 100% dead . Good,hopefully he stays that way forever .
Not really. Despite WotW coming up with lots of great info on S6, nothing so far has been what I consider a spoiler except the Marge/Tommen/Faith interaction and the difficult-to-interpret Arya chase scene. Everything else has been stuff I consider more of a “confirmation”, in that it was something that we were almost certain would happen in S6/TWOW anyway (or has already happened in AFFC/ADWD).
Also, Jon could get the new threads from Last Hearth, assuming he goes there at some point.
Joyous – to heck with being surprised or not. Happy dance, happy dance, happy dance!!
Sue the Fury,
More spoilery than
?
I hope the theory is right but I wouldn’t like Jon to go all hellbent on his possible ancestry. I wouldn’t be surprised if his dismisses any link to his potential T blood. He will always be more Stark than anything else.
Marcus,
HOW DARE YOU SPEAK OF STANNIS THAT WAY! TAKE IT BACK NOW!
j/k
LordDavos,
I don’t know whether he’s found out about his parentage yet or not, but I don’t see how you could tell that from this picture. I don’t think finding out that his dad was Rhaegar would lead to him dyeing his hair blonde and racing off to find a dragon; he has no connection at all with House Targaryen, practically and culturally speaking.
Chad Brick,
And what else you are almost certain will happen in S6?
Azor Ahai reborn
Phil Necro,
Seriously that was perfect.
Dangle a carrot a little more…. 😛 “I know something you don’t know!!!”
This photo made my year!!!! A time for wolves, indeed!!!
I can’t wait to get the Episode titles. I need assurance that we won’t have to wait too many episodes for Jon to come back.
Visual confirmation, at long last! We all figured that once Jon returned to life, he would leave the Night’s Watch behind and embrace his Stark heritage (whichever side it comes from). Nevertheless, actually seeing Jon in Stark-style clothing for the first time since Season 1 is pretty damn thrilling. He really does look like Ned in that battle gear (as opposed to say, Robb, whose style was noticeably different from his father’s). That’s obviously an intentional choice on the part of the costume designers, but that doesn’t make the homage any less powerful. As the Lord of Winterfell once told him, “You might not have my name, but you have my blood.” 🙂
Tywin of the Hill,
I’ve kind of grown attached to “SnowBowl” as the shorthand for this particular clash, but that name has a nice ring to it as well.
Firannion,
Actually, I have been rewatching the first few eps and it’s the same getup Ned wore during that scene when Jon is saying goodbye to coma-Bran and Catelyn tells him to GTFO, just as Ned came in the room. Blueish-grayish sleeves and that studded leather whatchamacallit Half man bun and all!
Firannion,
I think it’s green rather than blue. And if you look up pictures of Ned Stark. He’s got the brown body covering with green sleeves in most shots.
That makes sense on the books, you know. Jn wargin into ghist would be very difficult to translate on show, that’s why it’s better they don’t even try it.
I am so esxcited about this photo I am speachless.
TheMannis,
Think about it… why would he stay on the wall with the 100 something cowards who don’t even know a good LC when they see one… when he can March South, rally the North, and build an army that’s actually capable of manning the wall
Daily Mail is still suggesting it could possibly just be a flashback… You know, to that other time Jon fought the Boltons (clearly a Bolton crucifix in the photo) while wearing Stark armor.
At this point, pretty much the only possible argument against his return is that HBO just has him there as misdirection, and that seems pretty far-fetched.
Happiest effing day of September.
I’m surprised by how many people think Jon is abandoning the Wall and the fight against the Others by riding south to Winterfell. The few hundred Nights Watchmen and a few thousand wildlings aren’t close to being enough to defeat them. Even all of the North won’t be enough. It will take all of Westeros to be united to have any hope. Removing the Bolton’s from power and consolidating the North and gaining their support is just the beginning.
The major spoiler here is the Northern armor , which has mysterious implications for Winds of Winter.
TheMannis,
Does life have to majestically create ways for you to wear different clothes? Jon left Castle Black, joined with the Northmen who gave him the armour, simple.
It think its actually more greenish and very similar to what Ned was wearing in season 1:
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/29600000/Eddard-Stark-lord-eddard-ned-stark-29628352-1024-768.jpg
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/westerosessos/images/c/ce/Eddard-and-Catelyn-Stark-lord-eddard-ned-stark.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140302171129&path-prefix=pl
I am so seriously HYPE about this and I dont even know what to do with myself right now!!
Tyrion Pimpslap,
And that was what Stannis wanted in the books.
Firannion,
http://www.scifinow.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ned-stark-616×410.jpg
Tatters,
That would be something I wouldlike to see!
Oh, wow. Oh, wow.
She gets to take him to bed. ; )
Jared,
is even better.
Awww…… now you’re just torturing us!
I agree. I am very excited about this development and its implications. 😀
It’s a beginning that Jon Snow didn’t even consider when Stannis made him a good offer exactly suggesting this in S5. Jon Stark is a different person, though. 😉
Tywin of the Hill,
Snowbowl.
Maybe the Bolton’s army will go after Jon Snow and Sansa, Theon the Reek, Night’s Watch, and they will bring/start a fight with the Wildings at the Gift, so Jon’s hand is forced and he decide to march south, the battle at first seems lost but then reinforcement comes,Umbers and other Northern lords, and battle changes its course.
In the meantime Littlefinger brings the Vale army and takes Winterfell.
Transcription of the young widow audition. There were some parts I couldn’t make out though.
Scene 1
Old widow: This one is lhazareen. Her khal found her in the well after he burnt her village. How old were you?
Young widow: 12.
OW: A year later she bore her khal a daughter. He must have been so happy. How did he show his happiness?
YW: He broke my ribs.
OW: We are not queens here. But do not despair, the khals depend on us for our wisdom. All lives have meaning and we have each other. That is more than one just […]. When the khals meet for the Khalar Vez Ven, I hope they let you live after they […] with us. Though other possibilities are not so pleasant.
Dany: And the Khalar Vez Ven is tomorrow night? I need to make water.
OW: You can’t run from the Dothraki, you know this.
Dany: I will never run from dothraki.
OW to the YW: Go, show her.
YW: [nodding]
Scene 2
Dany: I needed fresh air. The old women stink!
YW: They do stink.
Dany: You must have been very young when you khal died.
YW: 16
Dany: Too bad he didn’t die sooner.
YW: Yes, too bad. Is it true your master has 3 dragons and they breathe fire?
Dany: They do. Would you like to see them one day?
YW: I’m Dosh Khaleen. I can never leave Vaes Dothrak until I rise as smoke of pyre on the day I die.
Dany: No, don’t hurt her!
Daario?: She’ll give us away!
Dany: She won’t, let her go. And you, have faith in me, khaleesi. Do not betray me.
Dwm,
Also when would he have worn the Stark armour and sported man-bun in the past? He went from Winterfell (there was no snow, he had shorter hair and no beard) straight to The Wall where he wore black until Mother’s Mercy. This is not even a possibility.
Gravemaster,
I think in Scene 2 it is Jorah, not Dany.
mau,
Maybe, but why would Jorah meet with Dosh Khaleen and say they stink?
Calm as still water.
Oh, who the hell am I kidding?!?
With apologies to Yusuf Islam:
Now I’ve been smiling lately
Thinking about the season to come
And I believe it could be
Something good has begun
Oh, HYPE train sounding louder
Glide on the HPYE train
Come on the HYPE train
Yes, HYPE train holy R’hllor
Everyone jump upon the HYPE train
Come on the HYPE train
Gravemaster,
Well why would the khaleesi ask Dany herself if her master has 3 dragons ?
After some thought I think I like Battle of the Bastards quite a bit… more than Bastard Bowl certainly and maybe as much or more than Snow Bowl even! It sounds like something the Westerosi would call it.
Battle of the Trident, Battle of the Five Kings, Battle of Black Water Bay and so on…
Marcus,
I did. Never found an explanation. But the “stink” part really feels like girl chat.
Darquemode,
I never got the “bowl” thing,is it an american term like the Superbowl or what because i don’t know anyone who uses that word in english other than that,hell i still don’t know what it means,does it mean clash or what ? Edit : Nevermind, i forgot about bowl as in bowl of cereal ,but that still doesn’t make sense . Not being native in english sucks .
Has Carice been spotted filming anywhere? Or simply hanging out in Belfast?
Marcus,
Basically..yes.
Particularly in American football (college and pro) the championship games are referred to as “bowls”… The Superbowl, the Orange Bowl, the Rose Bowl etc…
Plus there are a few notable games played in snowstorms referred to as the Snow Bowl as well…. So there’s that I guess….
Battle for the North sounds good too 😉
Mihnea,
Oh I’d say Jon definitely wargs Ghost in the books. The ADWD prologue basically tells you it’s going to happen. This is not nor would it ever be the case in the show because they only established Bran s a warg. So this will likely be a totally different way to tell a story that ends up in the same place when it’s all said and done.
Holy shit!
Even that little pic from the back, his Stark clothes and his hair…
He looks badass!!!!! He is going to look cool as hell next season!
He will definitely contend with Dany now as the main hero!
Well, for that, I’ll just have to break out some old Guns n Roses:
I’m on the HYPE train
I love that stuff
I’m on the HYPE train
I can never get enough
I’m on the HYPE train
Never to return
Best thing I’ve EVER heard??!?
Darquemode,
Ok,thanks for explaining to me ! 🙂
Hi-Fi,
Carice has posted two instagram photos over the past 2 days – in los angeles.
Thanks for trying the buzz kill, it won’t work. See this is big news for everyone….we don’t know and you don’t know, so rather than the negative vibes…how about, JUST FOR A DAY try to see this as a good thing. Geesh!!
I believe the woman to be Carice – past photos showed only the main cast standing under umbrellas, so I doubt she’s the stunt double. Besides, she has the same face shape as Carice. She’s even wearing something red (to the left, above that blonde guy’s head).
I’m more worried about Davos’s absence. Either he joined forces with her, or he didn’t make it past mid-season. 🙁
Jons outfit as LC was pretty impressive! It means that someone in NW is a skilled tailor. So no worries about how he gets his Stark outfit!
It’s funny how George was more playful about Jon’s “fate” upon ADWD’s release..
“their conga line of stabby-stabby FTW”: that’s one of your best decriptions.
I can’t keep up with these articles either. I step away from my phone/computer for a few hours and lo and behold…Kit appears on set.
I think bran is the one to fight the ww not Jon. that I think was his main purpose of going north of the wall
RFT,
Yep, she was there for the Emmys. But before that… nothing?
Marcus,
Also, stadiums where football is played are huge and bowl shaped, like a giant arena. So the games are played in a “bowl”.
The name originally come from the Yale Bowl stadium, which was called that because it was shaped like a giant bowl (as in bowl of cereal). Then the Rose Bowl (a college championship game) picked up the “Bowl” moniker, and from there it spread to be used offically for any championship football game, including some informal uses such as the “Iron Bowl” and the “Ice Bowl”. Basically, it stands for any significantly large game with a title at stake.
(And from there we get Clegane Bowl and Bastard Bowl, etc.)
Marcus,
Yes, it’s a riff on “Bowl” games. There’s, of course, the Superbowl, but in college football, the big games at the end of the season are also known as bowls. The original ones were The Orange Bowl, The Rose Bowl, The Sugar Bowl, and The Cotton Bowl…and I can’t remember the other one. I think “bowl” originates from the shape of the stadiums in which the games are played. The term has also been adapted to other famous football games, too. There was an NFL playoff game many years ago where the elements were so prohibitive, it was dubbed the Ice Bowl.
EDIT: It looks like several people already explained it.
A Stark,
That’s just the regular leather jerkin though. What Jon is wearing is the brigandine leather armor that the Stark soldiers wore. Ned also started wearing after his fight with Jaime. Here is a good close up of it. http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30100000/Eddard-Stark-Baelor-1-09-lord-eddard-ned-stark-30121109-1280-720.jpg
Lydia,
Going off her Instagram, Carice was in LA only yesterday. It’s a stretch, for her to be in Belfast and filming only 16 hours later. Not impossible but a stretch. And that person isn’t in costume- I think that’s her arm in blue, wearing some kind of raincoat/windbreaker.
Your examples lead me to question Sue’s tease even more. Usually battle names aren’t inherently spoilery. Often it’s just the location. Trying to imagine what could be more spoilery than
Must be something which spoils the outcome/eventual winner.
Hi-Fi,
she posted one just 17 hours ago from LA. :-/
maybe she’s done filming. for now.
I thought he was Alfie at first as well! I have no doubt more pics will show up soon.
For the record, I love the half-up man bun. Totally Stark (Ned and Benjen rocked them too). Hope he’s not just pulling his hair back off his face in between takes.
/superficial comment, too excited to think properly!
Sunfyre,
That’s a large part of why I am so intrigued as well!
Plus, of course any teased spoiler is like catnip to us at this point! XD
What if it actually is Eddard’s armor? Maybe his corpse finally got North and the Umbers found it?
Can someone please crank up the snow machine and cover that battlefield with blanket of GD snow. Winter is here!
Wow, that was epic, thanks for posting!
Good to see him back in the Stark colours.
I think they’ll have him ‘reborn’ and decide it’s time to take back Winterfell and reunite his siblings.
Jon knows that Bran and Rickon are alive and I imagine he believes his sisters to be as well. Am I remembering wrong?
In any case, I think it is going to be a big year for Starks to reclaim their names!
Lydia,
Low quality photo, but yeah she looks like Carice. Personally, I doubt it’s her and only three people spotted on the set there were Kit, Iwan and Kristofer from the main cast. Carice was in Los Angeles during ongoing shooting of this battle. Davos could be still alive, but just not be a part of this battle. I’m more worried about Edd (since Battle of Castle Black and mainly Hardhome…that was scary). Speaking of Edd.Interesting thing is, if NW is gone or not. Jon could be free from those pesky vows thanks to his death, but Edd not so much. Maybe NW cease to exist, but if not he would a deserter.
EDIT:Sue made it clear.
One of Roose Bolton’s 20 good leeches,
Lets not think too much. Maybe the watch has the best tailor in the north
last targeryan,
They’re all going to fight the Others. But, seeing as Bran is glued to a tree and can’t walk, his contributions will be through his warging abilities(dragon?). Jon will be on the front lines in battle. Bran can not lead an army.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Yeah, I certainly don’t believe that Jon will just forget the true war lies to the North. He’s seen the Night’s King and his army. He knows that nothing is more important than stopping the White Walkers, including reclaiming the North for his family (though removing the Boltons from power should help facilitate both goals). Death and rebirth won’t strip him of that knowledge or that commitment.
Nevertheless, given his chosen battle gear, I think we can safely infer that he will not continue that fight as a sworn brother of the Night’s Watch. I could see him returning to the Wall after the Boltons are defeated, leaving Winterfell to Sansa and/or Rickon. But I can’t see him retaining the title of Lord Commander or continuing to abide by the strict nature of the Watch’s vows (obviously not, as he would be breaking that vow by riding against the Boltons). There’s a chance that the Night’s Watch may not even exist in an official capacity by the time the North is secure.
If Jon is revived relatively early in the season, I believe that a significant part of his arc will involve him struggling with a moral dilemma: whether or not his temporary death truly freed him from his vow to the Night’s Watch (and to his brothers, despite their betrayal). The precise wording of the vow – “Night gathers, and now my Watch begins. It shall not end until my death.” – seems to clearly support the idea that he’s free. However, I get the feeling that Jon, staunchly honorable guy that he is, isn’t going to see it that way … at least at first. Ultimately, he’ll find a way to accept that he can still uphold the critical mission of protecting the Wall without being a sworn brother, serving alongside the men who betrayed and killed him. That acceptance will allow him to temporarily turn his eyes south and lead an army of wildlings and loyal Northern lords while wearing Stark colors. Once Roose and Ramsay are dead, his true war will begin.
Geralt of Rivia,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t think there was any reason to believe that the actors who have been spotted filming are the only ones who have ever been there.
“Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.”
He’s done with the wall and most of the people there. I think he will be able to go to his room – he’s not going to leave his sword behind after all. I think the red lady resurrects him before they presumably try to burn him when he could possibly be alone.
He’s no longer part of the watch – he was released from his vows when he was murdered by his brothers. He knows the Boltons have to die – not only to bring the north together (maybe after hearing Rickon or Sansa or both are alive), but also for their betrayal of Robb.
RFT,
:/
Thanks, anyway!
iridium,
I just love the way he balances after he crashes the WW at Hardhome
Making the 8,
Don’t worry. They’ll do that mostly in post-production.
This is makes me sooo happy!!
Sean C
I guess it is the deliberateness of donning the Stark gear which suggests he is finally accepting that heritage. If he had just heard of the Targ side, I would think he would be more conflicted about his identity. This look is saying he’s asserting himself as a Stark.
MeeraReed,
Jon was the 998th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch…
After his death whoever is elected next (Thorne perhaps?) can die in one of the upcoming battles and then someone needs to be elected the 1000th LC of the NW. Maybe Jon v2.0?
The showrunners/directors have all said it and we can see it: Kit is bloody good with a sword!
There’s a comment under the vid saying “This needs to go viral.” Totally agree; it was so well made and definitely fuels the hype.
(yes I ventured into the youtube comments section and emerged with faith in humanity intact. First time for everything.)
No Sean, you are right…but what people are saying is that if someone like Mel was confirmed as being there at THIS time, then she is shooting with Kit. Not that just because we didn’t see anyone, it couldn’t possibly mean they are not shooting. I know you are not trying to make this that hard to get.
No black! I knew it! Jon’s story needs to move forward and for us to leave the Wall. So go Jon to make Sansa a widow!
And I feel that Jon Targaryen is more likely that Jon Stark since he rejected the later option when Stannis offered so it would be character regression that he would have to die to do what he rejected before (and obviously it fits as well).
Nice that the new costume designer made Jon look like Ned. He is always a Stark too, no matter the name. And obviously all there nobles have some tailors somewhere in the background to make clothes, even the Watch has stewards. It is not a recycled outfit of some Stark’s.
Kinda feel bad for Kit, he has to shoot a big battle yet again, that much be very difficult. Last year it was Hardhome, the year before the Wall battle, now this and Jon’s battles are not over. He might have to shoot big battles in season 7 and 8 as well.
Jon already said “no” to that. Moreover, if Jon is with the Umbers, and if the Umbers have Jon, then he’s Jon Snow supporting his half-brother/cousin (which sounds sort of trailer-parkish, but you know what I mean: Rickon).
Quite the opposite: the prologue tells you why it cannot happen. One, the prologue tells us that only experienced wargs can do this. The warg in question note that Jon has refused to become an experienced Warg. Two, once a Warg does jump into one of his/her animals completely, he/she soon dissipates into the animal. Another warg can feel the dead warg’s presence in the animal, but the person is gone as he/she was a big (mostly) bald tailless monkey. Jon jumping into Ghost would soon be Ghost with a trace of Jon: Jon would basically be gone. Indeed, both books and show stress that even if the warg is still alive, he/she can get lost permanently inside the animal if he/she stays there too long.
The prologue was a setup for Bran, not Jon. What it did was show you the limits of warging, and how a Greenseer can take it one step further by linking him/herself into a weirwood and animals for decades without completely losing him/herself.
There has to be something more than that. Think on how it would work.
Minion: “Lord Umber! We’ve caught a deserter from the Night Watch!”
Lord Umber: “Boy, I’ve never enjoyed this: but you swore your oath; you know the price.”
Jon (sounding like Kit Harrington doing a Bono imitation): “But my oath was voided when I died.”
*pause*
Minion: “Er, your not dead.”
Jon: “Not now, but I was, murdered by my own brethern, men sworn to serve me, in an act of foul treachery. But, Lo! Here I stand: Azor Ahai Reborn! Raised again to life by the breath of R’hllor! Now, join me in my crusade against the Others! Together, we will free Westeros and all of mankind from this perfidious threat!”
*pause*
RAUCUS LAUGHTER
Lord Umber: *sigh* “Well, I’ve got to admit, that’s the best one I’ve heard yet. We’ll be repeating that one for years, ‘Azor.’ Minion! Fetch my sword!”
Jon: “F* it Mel, I told you this would happen…..”
Melisandre can still be in the battle area/ camp, but her scenes are all inside tents (which means studios in Belfast). I find it hard to believe she’d stay at the Wall.
Unless she’s… you know, dead. But I won’t accept that notion.
Well, she still has one living husband out there….
I chuckled.
This is awesome! I was really starting to like Jon during season 4 and 5. Very glad he’s back. Hopefully he tells those backstabbers in the Night’s Watch to f*ck off and goes to do his own thing… like kick Ramsay’s arse!!
Jon has accepted loopholes regarding sex before so it is possible he does not worry too long (but he is Jon so surely he will depute for some time). The loophole is also important for to convince all the other lords that Jon can leave the Watch, and the Watch itself maybe.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Me too!
Jared,
Well done. I think this is exactly how it will play out.
Wimsey,
Regarding the woman under the umbrella, there is a man holding it over her head, so it could be Carice, or a double. If you blow it up, you can see his jeans/legs between Jon and the “Theon” person.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
of course Jon wouldn’t abandon the threat that is the ww, he will gather all the resources he can get to fight them but since they are magical creatures they need to be fought by magic too not physically, and that’s where I believe bran will come in with his special powers. if bran could control hodor with the mind I think ww are easy to control as well..my guess the 3 eyed raven did tutor him a little more about his powers ( just a wild thought)
People will die. Jon won’t. Dany will at minimum leave for Westeros and probably arrive (though this could end up being S7 due to two books being divided over three seasons).
Our “confirmations” so far have been things like Dany rides with a Khalasar, rlj, Jon’s survival, and some post Stannis-Bolton battle in the north involving Jon. Would any fan have put these at less than a 90% chance of happening?
Likewise, we have learned that some AFFC/ADWD material, mostly involving Sam, the Riverlands, and the Ironborn, will be in S6. Surely this will spill into TWOW content, but nothing we have learned here so far is particularly illuminating as to what will be in the next book.
The true spoilers in my opinion are Arya’s chase, which starts to narrow down the possibilities for her return to Westeros, and the Tommen/Margaery religious conversion, which is a major book spoiler assuming the show is being mostly faithful here.
In any case, you seem to be misunderstanding me. I am talking about TWOW spoilers, not S6 spoilers. We’ve had plenty of the latter, but precious few of the former so far this filming season. Of course, we had some major ones in S5, such as LF indicating his play towards the North, and Stannis’s and Selmy’s deaths.
As a variation of someones brilliant “Family, Duty, HYPE” line from the Riverrun facade article/thread…
HYPE is Coming!
Not sure what I’m more chuffed at, the fact he is alived or the fact he is legally out of the black and in Stark uniform!
F$%K YEAH!
I GoT a feeling, this season is gonna be surreal!
Marcus,
Because the women do not yet know who Dany. They probably know she is a Khaleesi who should be cloistered with them. But I don’t think they’ve figured out that she is the conqueror with dragons of Astapor, Meereen, etc. Maybe Dany reveals herself to the girl and Daario goes to kill her because he says, “she’ll give us away”.
OR, they know everything, but Dany persuades them that she isn’t the actual master of the dragons (that the dragons obey someone else instead, maybe so they won’t try to ransom her back to Tyrion, she’s worth much less if she isn’t their master), and the girl finds out about Dany’s plan to escape (and that Daario is there to help her). Dany says at the end, no she won’t tell.
Something like that.
I am so siked about this!!! I hope the man bun is part of the new Jon Stark image!!! It really does echo Ned. Also in regards to him going to this battle instead of staying at the wall to fight off the wights and Ww’s… I wonder if Mel guided him to do the former? I mean she did have those visions of the Bolton banners and their defeat. Maybe it is she who tells him there is another reason why he needs to be there and not at the wall. Perhaps she sees he needs to go to Winterfell- to the crypts to discover who he really is and some deeper secret stored there … Hmmm…
Brandon,
Yes! Longclaw is on his hip!
Exit81,
i zoomed in on my screen it indeed looks like a bolton sigil but with wood piled up along the bottom almost as if there will be a bonfire. think this means we will see one more sacrafice to the lord of light?
Jon is brought back to die by the hands of Ramsay.
Not really, Jon is presumably leading the Wildlings who will fall in behind him as an individual and interfering with a civil war between the Umbers backing Rickon and the Boltons/Karstarks
He has a perfectly good rationale in that if he helps his half-brother take control of the north, he will be able to utilise the forces of the north to focus on the WW threat
As for the vows, before burning there is a real big point of “and now his watch is ended”, he is dead, his watch is ended, this will occur where he burned Ygritte in front of the very Weir Tree he said his vows (probably with Bran watching too) and then he will be sparked back to life within the Pyre IMO
It is both Bran (salt of the Earth) and Melisandre (Smoke of the Fire) who will resurrect Jon, but more completely than is often otherwise the case
TheMannis,
When have they ever?
Hal-le-lu-jah!…Hal-le-lu-jah!…Hallelujah!…Hallelujah! Heeeee Lives!
Jon Tar-gar-yen Stark Lives!
The guy in front of Kit spotted the photographer and he’s not to happy.
The photojournalist was attempting to be sneaky, hiding over the crest of a hill, but to
no avail..you could say that concerning the set security too.
We should assume the nw is defunct. They do not have enough men to mount a raid and still keep the gate even minimally guarded.
As for Jon’s reemergence: squeeeeeeee
Yes, before he died. 😉 When he is resurrected, he may not. He may have changed a bit. Dying tends to do that to one.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I feel the same way!
I was so excited to be unsullied for the first time in years, and swore I wouldn’t look at spoilers… But I couldn’t stay away. Although, Jon coming back isn’t much of a spoiler at this point. But the Stark uni is.
Oh, btw, unrelated; I’m assuming Arya ditches the FM soon. How does everyone think and ditches them? I’m hoping she just realizes that she doesn’t have anything against these random targets and instead wants to go back home to what’s familiar, but that’s probably very simplified and very far off. What is everyone else thinking?
Brandon,
The belt and the scabbard are the ones of Longclaw.
Theory below
It will be the Jon equivalent of Dany and the Dragon Eggs
As for that stake, there’s a tantalising thought running through my mind of Ramsay getting captured after the battle of 5 armies (equivalent), getting pinned to that Boltons stake and burned by Melisandre as a sacrifice to R’hlorr, hey if Roose killing Robb is a form of blood magic event then why not flip it around the other way
Wimsey,
My opinion, very early in GoT Jon makes an observation when talking to Arya that Joffrey raises the mothers House to the same prominence as the fathers when observing the dual Lannister/Baratheon arms
So personally I expect he’ll be Jon Stark-Targaryen in due course and have a dual Wolf/Dragon coat of arms
This makes sense for the character, he is a bridgine character, eg Wildlings/NW, Mel/Val, and Stark/Targaryen and North/South (of Westeros)
He’s pretty much the only person who could get the North onside with the South now IMO
So what could the battle be called that’s so spoiler-y? The Battle that makes the King? The Battle of Azor Ahai? A Stargaryen vs A Bolton? The Battle of a Prince and a Bastard?
“The Burning of the Boltons”?
I’m surprise that Jon is not wearing the Black in this photo ,How ? , Is Sansa goes to him and she gave him a name ? , or is one of the Northern Lords arrives The Wall with a letter signed by Robb that with Rickon and Bran dead , and Sansa is a Lannister , and Arya is nowhere to be found and maybe dead , Jon is his Heir ? , anyway it’s SO GREAT !
But I keep wondering if Jon is really will bring WF back .. What Sansa’s rule in this ? Nothing ?!!
AND I CAN’T EVEN!
Seriously. I’m as excited as you are. Seven Hells, the new season can’t come fast enough. I’m so stoked! I have my Jon (or whatever his name will be) back!
And to all those downers who kept saying that he wasn’t coming back, as Jon Snow or anyone else, you can suck it.
It would be thrilling if Melisandre sacrificed Ramsay.
Redstar,
“The Liberation of Winterfell”?
While, yes, Jon did turn down Stannis’ offer to become Jon Stark, that was because he was not willing to break his vows to the Night’s Watch. Death releases him from those vows, so with that snag out of the way, there’s no reason, at least in my mind, he wouldn’t embrace his Stark-ness. Also, I would think, given the attempts to rally people to the cause of the Night’s Watch have been mostly unsuccessful (except for Stannis), he may think he has better hope of rallying the North, first to deal with the unworthy in Winterfell, but ultimately, to deal with the threat of the WW, as Jon Stark.
Cat got Ned’s remains from Littlefinger in S2 (including armory?), Ned’s remains get sent up North, but Winterfell is already taken. Ned’s remains stay with whichever Northern Lord that brought them North. Most likely guess would be Lady Mormont. Little Lyanna Mormont openly supports royal House Stark. My guess it would be with the Mormonts, to whom Jon has a good bond considering Longclaw.
Bwahaha…that was funny.
Ser Oromis Locke,
At this point he could get the armor in any number of ways, but that could work… I like it.
Gravemaster,
I think, it’s Jorah and Dario who meets the widow during their search for Dany. It’s Dario’s sarcastic way to use stink and it also makes sense the widow asking them about their master and dragons….
Yes it would…along with his 20 good men.
The Blood of Winterfell,
Jon doesn’t need to go around calling himself “Jon Stark” (which he won’t, anyway, since there’s no will in the show) to wear the Stark household livery.
But only after she cuts off “Li’l Ramsey.”
Hey guys, a fast question I have: WHO DO YOU THINK IS THE NUMBER 1 MAIN CAHRACTER OF THIS STORY; Jon snow or Daenerys?
Just as long as it’s not “The Second Death of Jon Snow.”
The Eunuch,
DYING JOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It has been known. The entire reason GRRM world-built “his watch is ended” in the first place was to get Jon into an inescapable situation where he gave up his family to subsequently get out and claim them. So he WILL be on the pyre. They WILL say it. Then he’s released. There will be no 1,000th LC, as the other point is the Wall must come down to complete the WW threat, and given its size NW will be wiped out. Symbolic of the shit Westeros is in (your border patrol is gone), but also the practical outcome of such a large mass collapsing.
Kaka,
I think BOTH have a part to play. I think too many people are thinking it must be one or the other, why not both? I think it would be a fine lesson to teach. Men and women united to protect the world. True equality.
Not only does this confirm that Jon is back, but that he’s not there as the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. If there was any doubt, that is. That is Stark armor!
Chinoiserie,
There is no regression. He only rejected the offer from stannis because he wanted to keep his vow as a sworn brother of the night’s watch. Now that his brother’s betrayed and killed him, he can take his place as a stark. I don’t think jon is ever going to feel any connection to the targaryens.
Who’s the young woman holding a script behind the tripod?
Arya/Maisie?? ?
In the books perhaps?
Of course, he’s died.. he’s FREE OF HIS OATH … JON SNOW!!!!
This makes me happy
Weston,
They always have.
I do miss Iceland, though. Real, deep snow is difficult to imitate. Season 5 convinced me it wasn’t possible to do a Northern snowstorm justice with shallow fake snow. Hopefully they’ll film some of the battle in Iceland in december, in real snow, though that’s gotta be a nightmare to actually shoot.
I very much would like this if this was fb, HODOR!
That is my favourite part of this. The clothes, the hair – he looks like Ned. I am incredibly happy he’s coming back this way: an understated hero like Ned, not some over-the-top Azor Ahai/zombie/ dragon lord or whatever.
God I can’t stop looking at the photo!
One thing I don’t think that’s been mentioned is that Jon is more like Ned than anyone in the Stark family … he is deeply honorable .. I don’t see him as a vengeful person, but they did say when you’ve been brought back you’re a different person.. I think maybe a little darker, it might be awesome to see Jon become more aggressive .. while also retaining his honor..
I think how much of you is lost depends on how long you have been dead.. in the books Lady Stoneheart had been dead a while, she is a shadow of herself.. but I think Jon will be brought back pretty quickly ..
In the books, I always thought that the mysterious Hooded Man encountered by Reek at Winterfell was Hallis Mollen, the Stark retainer tasked by Catelyn with returning the cask with Ned’s bones (boiled bones only; there would be no armor or clothing in there) for interment in the Crypts. It was certainly someone who recognized him as Theon. And I have hopes that in the process of laying Ned’s remains secretly to rest, he found out something else about the Crypts: whatever mystery has been repeatedly hinted is hidden there, perhaps connected to Jon’s heritage.
Of course, the whole course of events at Winterfell under Bolton occupation has been completely altered for the show: no Abel and his washerwomen, no Ghost of Winterfell, no Hooded Man. So who knows if we’ll ever hear what became of Ned’s bones. They could be with the Mormonts, as you say, or at Greywater Watch or any of a number of places. Or just deleted from the story by the showrunners as unimportant.
Can someone tell me if the Reddit thing is bogus or not on Sansa?
1) This should be the official response of basically just about everyone. I mean, that just sums it up right there.
2) Clearly the woman under the umbrella is LSH. (Get hype!)
3) We know no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK!
All this, plus Ian McShane and ToJ. Seriously. Seriously. Get you hype pants on!
Sue the Fury,
Yeah it looks like some sort of wind breaker or gottex jacket. And she’s holding a clipboard or something electronic. So I’m guessing it’s one of the crew. Not Carice.
Which Reddit thing are you referring to?
Love your theory about the Hooded Man (although now I now have that Clannard song from Robin of Sherwood tv show stuck in my head). But hey – and I really don’t mean this as an insult, because I think Kit is gorgeous – Ned’s clothes wouldn’t fit Jon anyway. Sean Bean is about 6 ft and stocky; Kit is shorter and leaner. I think he must have picked them up from an ally, and I feel like it probably won’t even be addressed in the show. He’ll just appear wearing them.
grailking,
What reddit thing on Sansa?
Luka Nieto,
If it’s the same one I read last week, someone claiming to have a friend who’s an extra on the show claimed that a Stark will die in the ep 9 battle. People in the comments were wondering if it would be Sansa. Pure speculation arising from a suspiciously vague source.
Edit: here’s the link. Take it with a mountain of salt.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/3l6kx7/spoilers_all_season_6_news/
In “real” life, one could entertain that idea. However, in a story character arcs are important: and throwing away character development like that would be terrible writing.
Never minding that Jon Stark would undermine the overarching story: neither the plot nor the characters would need Jon Stark. They have Rickon Stark, trueborn son of Ned Stark, and thus King in the North, or at least True Lord of Winterfell. Jon Snow, loyal bastard half-brother, would be as much as anybody would want or accept from Jon.
Poor Rickon! It seems like people keep forgetting about him and what he means for the other characters. 🙁
The Blood of Winterfell,
I think Rickon could actually legitimize Jon since he’s technically the King in the North now. The Northern lords would be more inclined to accept Jon as being a Stark if Rickon did it as well, since they refused to acknowledge Stannis as king to begin with.
Wimsey,
Rickon Stark isn’t going to lead an army to battle against the Boltons, trueborn heir or not. He’s just too young. People haven’t forgotten…it’s simply an issue of practicality. And for all we know, Jon could be doing this in order to reinstate Rickon as King of the North.
I have such extremely different ideas from you about character arcs in a story, and what death or some equally traumatic event may play in shaping such arcs, that I will not engage in further debate with you on this. 😀 We’ll just wait and see if Jon is still exactly the same as before. 😉
The Blood of Winterfell,
Putting aside the Rickon legitimising him, his NW clothes probably burn away in the Pyre, the clotjes he turned up in at the Wall are probably still lying around in storage so he’ll leave in them
I don’t think that we should assume that Jon sees it like that. He’s not a “loophole” kind of guy! And, again, if what we have been told is correct, then Jon is with the Umbers and knows that Rickon is still alive. You could tell Jon all you want that he is legitimate: he would still see Rickon as the proper heir to Winterfell. And my guess is that he won’t view a little thing like temporary death as absolving him of his NW vows permanently. After all, suppose that the Nationalists do prevail at the Wall: Jon’s now marked as a traitor to the Watch by them, and Jon is the sort to honor his vows even if the Watch won’t until his name is cleared or he’s well and truly killed.
All of that written: I do wonder if the Wildlings will declare him “King beyond the Wall.” That would be a nice ironic twist on what Mel has seen.
Luka Nieto,
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/3l6kx7/spoilers_all_season_6_news/
This one
Winter is come…
Exactly, GRRM recently made a point regarding LS that death changes peope, so i expect Jon to be different
His resurrection is different, combo of R’hlorr and Weir gods
Lonnie,
See, I never understood this thinking.
Beric was brought back several times, and he was still by all accounts a good and fair man.
I always just thought Catelyn came back crazy bc she saw her son die in front of her and then got her own throat slit.
A Stark dying sounds bogus. Plus why on earth would Sansa be anywhere near a battle? On the other hand, that “spoiler” states that Yara and Theon will flee to Volantis? What madness is that? 😮
The Blood of Winterfell,
Sansa and Jon reuniting and Sansa legitimizing Jon would be fucking fantastic.
Sorry but…who is Linda and Ellio and what exactly did they do?
I’m not sure of Benjen Stark’s build now, but it could be among his remaining belongings at the Wall. Not that it matters whose they are, it’s such a buzz to see Jon now out of the Black.
May it officially be called the “Battle of the Bastards”, which is an insult to the supposedly legitimised Ramsay, who’s a bastard in both senses of the word. Many have mentioned the true enemy being in the far North, but 1) eradicating the Boltons to unite the North as a foothold for gaining support from the other Westeros kingdoms will give humankind a fighting chance against the WWs. And 2) the WWs will presumably breach the Wall and come south anyway. So it makes strategic sense for Jon (as Stannis proposed) to regain the North and focus on the main threat some time afterwards.
Why anyone, especially book-read fans, ever thought him permanently dead, I cannot fathom. However, it’s good to finally know that this board’s many I-told-you-sos are vindicated. As for the hype, GRRM used it too, leaving Jon to bleed out. And months of declarations of his death from HBO and show personages will make Jon’s revival even more magical, especially to those who didn’t guess. I hate lies, but as they say, there’s no business like Snow business.
For me, best of all is to see Jon being what he is. Jon is Stark through and through, and Ned’s son despite his presumed biological father. I just hope it’s not Melisandre who revives him, because she’ll want a concession. And the concession might be a conversion to R’hllor. We’ve seen so much evil committed in the Red God’s name, I hope Jon is never associated with it.
Sorry this off topic, but everyone is prob on this thread now instead of the RR one. I just wanted to point this out:
Looks like the casting for the (rumoured) Frey son will be a part of this Riverrun stuff. The shooting dates for the role posted back in August line up with when filming will likely commence in Corbet:
Week of 8/10
Week of 8/24 – same as the outlaw band
Week of 10/12
Week of 10/19
Thing is, like Cersei being Queen Regent until Joffrey/Tommen come of age, Jon can actually serve as Lord Regent as Kevan Lannister is until Rickon comes of age, or at least General
I expect Sansa to be more relevant to the Riverlands than the North
Tbh i am expecting something of a North/RL dynastic war, wouldn’t be surprised tbh if Rickon is killed as i expect we end up with legit Jon vs Sansa, riverlords and Vale backing Sansa and Northerners + wildlings backing Jon
Does anyone here thinking this filming and the uniform and everything is for a flashback/vision scene for Bran ?
mariamb,
Thx! I must admit that I read the “conga” term from some overly-critical diarrhea blog a few days back. 🙂
As inevitable as it is, a Kit sighting is cool. Did you ever doubt though? Now when Joseph Mawle and Joe Dempsie are sighted, there may be earthquakes…
Not expecting it. Well not in the books at least
Sansa will go RL with Brienne
blood of winterfell,
Flashback, definitely not. Jon never went to battle as a Stark, especially not against the Boltons (see the Bolton crucifix). If it is a vision, it would still mean he’s back.
Of course Jon will not be “exactly the same”: protagonists cannot be static because the stories always arise from how they evolve. However, that also means that protagonists also cannot metamorphose: again, the story comes from the steps, so protagonists have to evolve in a gradual fashion. That means that Jon needs to be a little different after this: but not a lot different. (Ditto that for Daeny, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, etc., after their traumas of the last couple of seasons.)
The other key point is that protagonists have to evolve in a fairly linear fashion. That means that you cannot backtrack on major things. Really, the only exception would be if the point of Jon’s arc was to build him into someone who would be comfortable being Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell. In that case (and, really, only in that case) a Caesar-esque “No…. No…. Yes.” would be fine. (Romance stories often rely on this: but this is not a romance.) Jon’s arc is almost certainly to take him to be the person who can make one or some of the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” choices forced on humanity because of the Walkers vs. R’hllor Battle for Nirvanna. So, having shut the door on that along Jon’s arc, GRRM (and B&W) would essentially be backtracking on Jon’s evolution and probably watering down the actual story.
DanTheMan,
They’re the webmasters of Westeros.org. I’d really rather not get into all of the things they’ve said and done as it would ruin the good discussion we’re having about Jon and Snowbowl.
Ghosts Lunch,
Also, how does Sansa legitimize Jon? Why would she do that, anyway?
grailking,
Fake. Why would extras for the Snowbowl scene be privy to such information, particularly a storyline they’re not even a part of?
Ghosts Lunch,
Jon and Sansa would fight a “dynastic war” because…?
Kay,
Further down is this:
My friend who is in the battle scene as an extra has hinted heavily that it is Sansa.
Only other Red is Mel, maybe it’s actually her?
Firannion,
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/29600000/Eddard-Stark-lord-eddard-ned-stark-29628352-1024-768.jpg
grailking,
Or the more likely situation, there is no “friend” and it’s a foiler.
Mel can’t die, anyway. She hasn’t met Arya again, nor is like to this year.
DAT CLOTHING #STARK.
Exit81,
That’s what it looks like to me, too. Kinda confirms Boltons in the area.
Ghosts Lunch,
Nah I’m not expecting it. I just want a Stark reunion.
What do you think Sansa will do in the RL?
Sean C.,
Yeah wtf?
Wimsey,
couldn’t she just officially make Jon a ‘Stark?’ Do what Cat never did?
Idk. Not saying it would or even could happen. Just pondering
Yeah, there is no way that they would have Yara sail around Westeros for a 3rd time in 3 seasons! That’s downright torturous! 🙂
I think you partially quoted Firannion there but on your point about Benjen (Joseph Mawle) I think he’s of a height with Ned/Sean. Agree, it doesn’t matter. I’m beside myself at seeing him out of the black. Yes, it was always his colour, but goddamn it’s good to see him as a Stark.
grailking,
What I find it hard to believe, if the person relaying this information is an extra in a battle sequence, is why such a person would know anything of Sansa’s death. I mean, Sansa would not be anywhere near an actual battle, in which this extra would take part. It could be Mel, but I thought Carice was in LA at the moment, not filming. Perhaps they meant a KARStark would die? Or Jon STARK dies again in battle? To be revived by Mel again? My head is starting to spin. 🙂
Hodor’s Bastard,
Yara and Theon being together towards the end of the season does sound quite logical. But sailing to Essos? Plus, I do so want them to have a chat with their Uncle Rodrik; though I’m not a book reader, I am much intrigued by Rodrik.
grailking,
Perhaps they’re throwing out guesses based on GRRM talking about a female character’s upcoming death awhile back?
If the Boltons find her again…Jon could win the battle, but she could very well be the ‘collateral damage’. Let’s hope not.
If this is literally Jon Snow resurrected, that means Kit Harrington, the showrunners, the HBO execs were all blatantly lying in their post-season 5 interviews; when all they had to do to preserve suspense would have been to refuse to answer whether Jon was dead and staying dead. “Dead is dead is dead”, “He’s deader than dead”, “At least Jon gets to be with his family members” are all pretty explicitly ruling out resurrection.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they have something else up their sleeves, like a twin brother who had been raised at another northern castle. His hair is totally different, which may be a way of making him look like a different character. The R+L=J+M theory may not have been far off, they just got the last letter wrong.
They run Westeros.org. After GoT won at the 2015 Emmys Linda tweeted that “the Emmy voters smoked all the crack” and then called the show “pandering shit” and THEN called WotW’s Sue the Fury “a delusional nutcase” and “a pathetic nobody” without any provocation. GoT writer Bryan Cogman noticed and was taken aback, to say the least. They’re also GRRM’s ASOIAF ‘confidantes’, if you will.
Sophie said this, Sunday:
Sansa doesen’t like Jon because Cat didn’t, same as Blackfish, sansa is a bit of a Southron snob and doesen’t like him given he’s a bastard, we see Arya and Sansa arguing about yim early in aGoT
Personally i see a split in Robbs kingdom forming, north will be very different to RL with lords backimg.differemt.people my personal theory is that Sansa is Lothston mk2 and will rule midlands out of Harrenhall, with Blackfish out of RR and SR out of Eyrie. I had been theorizing she kills Myrcella but guess not?
Show may go a fairly.different route, but if theunr nuilding RR facade it must feature.quite significantly in upcoming seasons
May I ask how you know about Rodrik the Reader then? 🙂 Has he been mentioned in the show?
Not sure if it’s been mentioned here yet but is there any chance Kit is playing Ned for a flashback? It’s just the man-bun and the costume look very Ned as opposed to Stark, and since Jon is meant to be the child that looked most like Ned it could (maybe) be a possibility. Also, as far as I know, no one has been cast as Ned for the Tower of Joy flashback yet… Obviously this isn’t it because of the location but maybe it’s an associated flashback?
grailking,
And?
Have you by chance read anything of Sansa’s story post-AGOT? (not that I could imagine AGOT-era Sansa fighting a dynastic war against Jon either, though she was indifferent to him)
Sean C.,
And?
Does Sophie get the whole season scripts?
Did she not say last year that Sansa was going to be stronger and play the game, yet it looks like they sent her backwards.
She played, but they kicked her in the gut.
Anyone else just notice for the first time the distinct similarities between what Jon is wearing (northern lord battle garb) and what the Nights King was wearing when we saw him last? Is the Nights King a Stark? Just trying to make his way back home to the crypts?
Yes.
I’m still not seeing the point you’re trying to make.
Ghosts Lunch,
Hasn’t Sansa’s arc so far in the books been about her childish perspectives, opinions, and fantasies being torn down?
I may be off, but I think (and hope) that both show and book Sansa would be delighted to see Jon again, and the fact that he’s a bastard would most likely never cross her mind. She would just be thrilled to see family again.
Hodor’s Bastard,
No! I read all the speculation here in the comments the day a casting announcement was made about a haggard looking intelligent lord, was intrigued, looked up the ASoiaF wiki, learnt about Uncle Rodrik, and there you have it! 🙂 Now I want to see an intelligent, book-reading Ironborn.
Valaquen,
This question might be pointless, but…. WHY are they like that? I’m sure GRRM does not appreciate being stuck in the middle of that foolishness.
Sean C.,
The reddit thing hints that Sansa dies, Sophie hints great things for Sansa, if she gets the whole season script wouldn’t she know or not if Sansa is doomed?
Not that I expect her to tell us exactly, but she might be more secretive about it.
I’m fairly certain Mel will die to resurrect Jon in the early part of the season.
I’m on my phone so it’s likely been said and I just didn’t see but I think Jon’s not in black because The Watch has been wiped out after they “killed” him
Brendon,
In book, though she doesn’t think of him often when she does they are warm thoughts.
She calls him bastard brother or half brother just like the rest of the kids do, I don’t think she hates him or thinks of him like Cat does.
Lydia,
I don’t think it’s Carice. That woman is wearing blue. Mel wears red themed robes. And the face…it’s too haggard. But the key is the costume color. There’s no red. Blue? Mel would never wear blue. Ever.
Sansa can do that , she can be the Queen Regent in The North until Rickon come to age. And she’s already in The Noth.
And I really don’t think Rickon will name Jon “Stark” because he’ll take his seat. I mean if Jon became a Stark He’ll be the rightful King in the North , rightful than Bran and Rickon and Sansa and Arya because he’s older than them! , and maybe the Northern people will have a proplem about the fact that Jon is bastard child and Bran and Rickon and Sansa and Arya are trueborn children and yet Jon is the King not them!
I think Jon wear Ned’s northern clothes from season 1 because it does look not just familiar but very familiar. the same way Sansa wear her mother embroidered “neck pillow”
I hate to be a party pooper, but doesn’t using death as a loophole to get out of your sworn vows seem a little weaselly?
Kay,
Well, I won’t say anything about Qarl the Maid then! 🙂
If the reddit guys friend is an extra for the North battle, why would he have any idea what’s going on with Theon and Asha and the whole Iron Islands Kingsmoot thing? 2 different storylines. I don’t believe it
grailking,
Well, you could argue that Sansa *did* get stronger.
She went back to her home, despite being scared of the people there.
She went through with marrying Ramsay (she made that decision herself) because she thought it was the right thing to do until Stannis got there.
She lived through Ramsay’s traumatic visits and was never broken, and remained strong and hopeful till the very end.
She got crucial info from Theon about her brothers, and played a part in bringing him back to himself. (yes I know he isn’t there yet.)
Sansa’s season 5 story wasn’t perfect, although I personally did enjoy a lot of it. I was however disappointed that Sansa did not really get really to participate in politics in season 5, but I do think that Sansa grew stronger and showed a lot of bravery in season 5. Just because she was brutalized by Ramsay does not mean that she was weak or regressed as a character.
Myranda tried to scare her off, but she stood up for herself and told her that she couldn’t frighter her.
Wow, that was SO good! Can’t wait for s06!
HIS OWN MEN MURDERED HIM. That’s like saying “So you left your wife after she stabbed you? Isn’t that a weasel’s way out of a marriage? Attempted murder?”
Hodor’s Bastard,
So of course, I had to go look up Qarl the maid. He sounds like a pretty boy and Yarasha’s main squeeze. 🙂 Rodrik is still more intriguing, though.
Excellent point.
TheMannis,
I guess because in order to unite the North and the Wildlings to fight against the Others, he needs to get rid of the Bolton’s, who did not send help when he asked for it. As long as the Bolton’s are there as Wardens of the North, there will be factions fighting openly or covertly against each other.
Already knew this from another site, but the only way this news could have been cooler is if he was wearing Rhaegar’s armor from the trident
Lydia,
Carice was in Los Angeles 16 hours before the pics posted. So not impossible. Just very unlikely. And why would she be wearing a rain jacket and carrying a clipboard?
So, any ideas on who was strung to the Bolton X? I doubt it was just standing there in an open field without being used. Intimidation tactics by Ramsey?
JonStark,
Except Stannis was trying to unite the North to go South to reclaim “his” throne, while Jon is going to go the other direction to fight the WW.
It’s kind of similar to Daeny’s prophecy: to go West you’ll have to go East… (to go North you’ll need to go South).
hodor,
And what is your idea? That he’s going to fight the WW alone? He needs an army bigger than the Wildings. But there is not a chance people will pay attention to a zombie bastard shouting the WW are coming… He needs to prove his leadership skills and unite the North, but he’ll have to earn it. It is not going to happen because he is, to most people’s knowledge, Ned’s son.
K Noelle,
If so. How can you explain vision of her walking on the battlements of Winterfell and strong foreshadowing for future meeting between her and Arya? D&D include this convo for a reason and since it’s not in the books. It’s not like her visions are wrong, but maybe only badly interpreted. By the end of the season both of our heroes could have a Red Priestess by their side.
Technically, Bran would be King in the North now. He’s still alive and older than Rickon.
Darquemode,
I like that! There may or may not not be a wall to defend, but there will likely be baddies to keep an eye out for.
Simeon,
Yes
Cumsprite,
My question as well. There’s no more Stark army, and Jon doesn’t have access to the Stark armoury, so I wonder if it’s just non-specific northern gear. Maybe Umber?
Simeon,
Bran is a little predisposed, what, with becoming a tree and all. Unless they’re going to plant a weirwood in Winterfell and carve Bran’s face in it, I’d say he has forfeited his claim
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Ramsay. Jon is going to let Ghost slowly “flay” him with his teeth, then set him ablaze!
Simeon,
Well yes, but Bran went beyond the Wall and will probably never return. And for all anyone else knows, he could be dead. So at this point, I think Rickon is for all intents and purposes the King in the North.
Lisa0527,
Dude ur thinking to much into this. Just hype and let the rest take care of itself
B,
psyched **
King in the North Carolina,
Not when your “brothers” are the cause of your death. What is he meant to do? Shake it off and warn them not to try it again?
This is my first off-season following GOT on a fan board. I am so impressed with all the cool stuff you guys have managed to ferret out! Cool theories being put up too, really fun to read to get the imagination working. Can’t wait for next April to find out who’s theory is correct or if we’re all going to be totally surprised. Was really nice to see a pic of Jon whateverhisnameisnow on set.
Oh, my sweet summer child… – Welcome to the madness. 🙂
Season 6 can’t come fast enough.
TheMannis,
He’s not abandoning it, he’s rallying the north to band together and fight whats coming, but to do that, he has to get rid of the boltons. And probably a big chunk of the Freys too.
Lisa0527,
Most likely.
I wouldn’t take everything melisandre says as gospel- she often gets it wrong. Stannis anyone?
Her vision of herself walking WFs battlements might be Sansa for all we know, and when she looks into Aryas eyes and mentions the eyes that she’ll close forever and that they’ll meet again- who’s to say this isn’t through Nymeria?
Kill the boy and let the man bun be born.
Tywin of the Hill,
Makes sense…
I remember in the books before Jon got stabbed to death he read that letter from Ramsay that Ramsay wrote in a horrifying and in a directly challenging way to Jon.
So Jon is going to meet that challenge and slay that sicko.
The King In The North!!!!!
Brendon,
Yeah thst could quite easily be the case, show Sansa perhaps would
I’m just putting out a vague speculative theory
Sansa seems to be becoming quite cynical by the time of her sample WoW chapter and serogatory of her thoughts, toward Hth for her treatment as “Littlefingers bastard” but also toward Sweetrobin calling him “a fool” etc and no doubt observing Littlefingers ruthlessness with Lysa will have an impact etc
Lisa0527,
There is the clothes Jon wore in the pilot and travelled to the Wall in?
blood of winterfell,
Reckon Sansa will go RL with Brienne. I reckon she goes from Vale to RL in books via Brienne
Legitimised bastards are behind other trueborn children,
think it is gender neutral so a legitimised Jon would be behind Sansa and Arya. Gets tricky though if Robb named Jon his heir as supposedly intended, which gives added meaning to Mormont letter to Stannis and could be a potential point of conflict between Jon and Sansa, and hebce northern lords and river lords who if Blackfish comments to Jaimie is anything to go by might not be particular keen on Jon given Cats attitudes
This is why Fat Walda beig pregnant is an issue, because the child would disinherit “legitimised” Ramsay, especially if it is a boy
What a great ploy by the showrunners to confuse us! First the white walker in Girona and now a Jon Snow appearance. The lengths to which they go! 😉
Hi-Fi,
“Only death may pay for life.”
Melisandre already made payment for Jon’s life when she burned Shireen. This is the return on the payment of that debt. And it’s a damn big return.
Jon doesn’t have to die to leave the watch. Years ago GRRM said there was a precedent for men in orders like the NW and KG to be released from their vows, but it was rare. I don’t know why he would have imagined it, if there wasn’t going to be a use for it.
Of course D&D have license to make changes (ahem)..but I’m just saying death is not the only way out.
In the books, I think there are definite signs that Jon is a berserker (he just doesn’t know it yet).. “the mark of the beast is on him “, and so on, because he has Ghost… Also, the comment is made about Ramsay (because of his hunts) that he seems “a beast in human skin”
In the book, Jon was intending to take it to Ramsay before he was stabbed, and I think he will get up in full berserker mode (not resurrected). I expect he will follow through with confronting Ramsay, not only will it be bastard vs. bastard , but one kind of “beast” against another.
Adaptation changes not withstanding, that sort of development might be something D&D would try to keep.
BelJC,
Like NOT possible AT All!
dothrakian raven,
Why? I mean, it is pretty unlikely but IF (and it’s a big if) they are actually telling the truth and Jon is dead then it’s possible. Unlikely but possible.
I do find it odd that we haven’t heard any casting news for Tower of Joy Ned though…
Either that or he told all the nobles to FUCK OFF and went back to his wife.
Davos is in White Harbour talking Manderly into supporting Jon.
All of my fears and doubts from 2011 till now are gone!
I am hyped all over the top since yesterday.
btw, I like the theory of Shireen being the sacrifice for Jon – seems logic.
Dude, you must be joking surely? ….
BelJC,
How is this logically possible? Why is he filming In Ballintoi in N.I and not in Spain? Have you read where TOJ is going to be filmed? We have facts and it is wise to make assumptions out of the facts we have been given and not from a vacuum of “possibilities”
Apollo,
Ha, ha! One gets great Joy from the news, one is elated by seeing Jon and then one starts reading fandoms comments!
It’s official. I can die happy. And on my tombstone it will say “Jon Snow Lives.”
Darksianna,
Jon’s Know,
But I liked the boy:(
No seriously this is totally the best headline I could read here but I just hope they leave the “man” Jon with most of the Jon SNOW charm in tact. I don’t want him to be a one-note vengeance filled character. I’m sure that won’t be the case so… YEAH JON LIVES!
I absolutely HATE the theory that Shireen is the sacrifice for Jon’s life. A little girl shouldn’t be killed in order for Jon to live. Even Jon would be horrified at the thought.
If anyone is getting sacrificed to pay for Jon’s life, then it’s going to be Ghost.
dothrakian raven,
As I said in my original post, this obviously isn’t ToJ because of the location, but it could be a precursor flashback related to the Lyanna disappearance storyline.
It is a fact that everyone associated with the show has said that Jon Snow is dead. I don’t necessarily believe this, but if he is really as dead as they say then Kit as Ned could explain his continued presence on set.
OMFG Have been waiting SO long to find out the next chapter in Jon’s journey. This photo is a revelation. About time he got off the Wall. Him interacting with other characters should be fun.
On a shallow note Kit just keeps getting hotter with age. I saw his most recent photoshoot in a French magazine… wowza.
Obsidian,
Interesting ideas
If he stays in Ghost for a while i reckon he would come back more Direwolf-like
Hadn’t considered that about Ramsay
Oh wow. Oh wow oh wow oh wow.
Facts rule out the flashback idea.
1. Kit has been confirmed to take part in a major battle in episode 9. 2. This battle is filming right now and has been for a couple or so weeks already. 3. Recently, Kit has been photographed repeatedly hanging out with Iwan who’s also confirmed to be a part of that battle scene. 4. Kit has been spotted on the battle set. 5. He has been seen around Northern Ireland sets time and time again for nearly two months now. Has he been filming 20 or so flashbacks that would require him to spend that much time in NI? (we’d so not be getting so many flashbacks, esp. of a dead character, anyway, D&D were never big on such plot device, and an abundance of it would only disrupt the flow of the plot). 5. Kit got back to NI right before the battle scene was about to start filming. 6. Jon would have never worn such armour in all of 5 seasons. 7. He got to Castle Black in the very first episode of season 1 and stayed there (only going north of The Wall a few times, never south of CB), he donned the black, which he wore until the finale of season 5. 8. While still in Winterfell, there was no snow around, and Jon had shorter hair/no beard/different clothes. And why would he be wearing Northern/Stark armour at any point there in the first place? So it’s not him from that time. 9. Jon on those new photos has Longclaw. He only got the sword at Castle Black where he was already wearing Night’s Watch blacks. At no point in time would he have worn any clothing of different colour (bar his stint in the wildling’s gear). 10. There’s Bolton’s crucifix thingy on the first photo, so it’s further confirmation this is a battle set near Winterfell. A battle with the Boltons. When would Jon have fought the Boltons in the past? On his journey to The Wall in the first ever episode? lol 11. There’s Miguel Sapochnik talking to Kit. 12. Miguel is filming a battle right now. 13. The cast has been quite coy about Jon’s fate lately. The conclusion draws itself.
As for a Ned flashback. 1. Kit doesn’t look like young Sean. 2. They’d find an actor who resembled him. 3. They wouldn’t have an actor who played one of the three biggest GOT/ASOIAF characters and who just ‘died’ play another major dead character. Makes no sense. 4. We have a confirmed Ned flashback that is of him in his childhood (not his twenties) and the boy actor for the role is already cast. 5. The TOJ interior was already shot in the first week of August, the exterior is about to be filmed in Spain. 6. Those latest photos are from Northern Ireland (Saintfield) set.
It’s obvious by now that Jon is not staying dead. The photo is just another piece of proof added to the growing pile.
BelJC,
Thing is they aren’t actually lying when they say he is very dead (Loras actor threw script across room) but he gets resurrected from that state
Why can’t we know the name that the extras are giving to this battle???
I thought this website was about spoilery news.
I feel like sighing in relief, honestly. Forget the show, we’ve been waiting for this since ADWD came out!
https://taishka.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/happy-dance-cat.jpg
Ghosts Lunch,
Yeah I know all about the resurrection/Azor Ahai/Jon Stark/Jon Targaryen theories. But if he is actually literally and finally dead, as D&D seem to insist he is, then this is another possible explanation.
BelJC,
They only said Jon Snow’s dead. They’re not lying there. They never said he’s staying that way. And the evidence which has been piling up since the end of July points to his physical comeback. He’s already spent too much time in Belfast/around and on GOT sets for that not to be the case.
‘Jon Snow’ as we know him is gone, but not the character. He will return as a changed man and no longer be ‘Jon Snow’.
Redstar,
Kit Harington: ‘I’m dead. I’m not coming back next season.’
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
I think jon will be released from his nw vows, and marches south to winterfell to consolidate power in the north and retake winterfell as a waypoint/strategic point in the battle against others. This will happen after benjen returns and takes lord commandership of the nights watch. Rickon will be found and will be the back-up stark in winterfell/ lord of winterfell (job will be king of winterfell during the battle against the other; i.e.-his dreams and dueling with rob as kids) if anything were to happen to jon during the fight against the others. Starks have always been linked to the others and the wall. Benjen (lord commander), jon (stark commander/king of winterfell/the north), rickon (lord of winterfell/back-up stark in winterfell while jon does what’s necessary), and bran (tree god, warg king, what the hell ever). That’s just my take towards what may be happening in the future of the north.
*they didn’t use benjon as bait for jon in the show for nothing*
Se06/ep10 “a time for wolves”
What do ya think sue? Lol
Tywin of the Hill,
One quote in an interview that was conducted in January lol try harder….read his latest interview. Read the latest quotes from some of the cast members. But’s it’s moot anyway. Words are wind. Actions matter. And actions have been denying that little quote from January since August.
All this while exciting, just confirms how much they screwed over Stannis’ character. In the books it is Stannis reaching out to the Northern Lords. Even if GRRM writes Stannis to lose the Battle of Ice, at least there will be a battle. Not the five minutes hash of Mother’s Mercy.
Redstar,
I didn’t say I believed him, only that he was lying.
January? How could they have made that spoiler 3 months before the season started? There’s nothing in that interview that implies it was made in January.
El-Bobby,
Which is why it’s absolutely par for the course for this story. I could see George doing it. However, it looks like the show didn’t quite want to go there (or if they are suggesting that her death somehow pays for Jon’s life, they’ve separated the event enough from Jon where we wouldn’t associate him with it).
Hey guys, I have a question for you: Who do you think is number 1 main character of the story; Jon snow or Daenerys?
I know, most will say both, but choose one anyway and say why do you think so. Thank you.
Sam. Tyrion. Sansa.
When I read “huge spoilers” in the title I said to myself “I’m not going to open that article”, but then it took me less than a second to click on it and here I am… 😀
That’s awesome news and picture! And OMG that Stark costume!
I’m getting married today and got in a lot of trouble. I said this news was the best Wedding present ever. And he’s in Stark uniform and not the black? Awesome. Did anyone else notice his hair is just like Ned Stark’s?
Redstar,
Thank you. Beautifully put.
[Impersonation of Meg Ryan in a film whose name I forget] Yes Yes YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wonderful to see that photo. I’m actually finding the half-bun quite sexy. In fact the whole new Jon Stark look is very attractive.
And at last after five long years my husband has conceded that Jon is coming back. I’m making him humble pie for his dinner tonight. 🙂
To all of us who have kept the faith ‘ Now our watch is ended’.
Matt Anderson,
Congrats Matt. Have a lovely day.
All of us here understand your joy. About Jon Snow I mean. 🙂
The only flashback of Jon’s that would make a modicum of sense would be him from his time with the Night’s Watch, in which case he’d be wearing his NW get-up. This is not what we’re seeing here. This is a brand new development. And the only spoiler-y thing is the outfit. It was clear Jon’s not done in the books back in 2011. And it was quite clear Jon’s not done with the show even right after Mother’s Mercy aired.
GeekFurious,
Go away troll.
El-Bobby,
Yes I agree. I don’t like that either.
But neither do I want Ghost sacrificed.
It’s a cruel cruel GoT world. But there has to be some happiness and some good people/wolves who survive.
ARE YOU HEARING ME GEORGE?
Congratulations!
Just remember, when you say your vows they do not begin with “Night gathers, and now my watch begins. ….”
Let-it-Snow,
Yep. That stance! That is one sexy Stark.
Matt Anderson,
Congrats on your wedding. Hope you fully understand the ‘consequences’ of what you’re about to do hehe
Matt Anderson,
Ahahaha Matt! Yes, we all feel your excitement for Jon Snow/Stark but holy shitballs dude, get off this site and back to your wedding! You don’t want to piss off your new bride on today of all days. Best wishes, and don’t worry: the hype will still be here when you get back.
Also yes, I and others remarked the hair is similar to Ned and Benjen’s. I know some people aren’t fans of the “man bun” (it’s a bit hipster I guess), but honestly, it’s just practical. With long hair I carry a hair-tie with me at all times and immediately pull it back if I want to do anything vaguely physical (clinical procedures etc), and pull it up quite securely for gym/running purposes. I can only imagine how annoying it would be to have hair whipping all around you and obscuring your vision in a mock battle when you’re trying to wield a bastard sword!
Brandon,
Yes I thought the same. She sort of went insane just at the end.
In the book she clawed at her face.
Matt Anderson,
You disdain your guests’ gifts? That’s the worst thing you can do at a wedding.
Oh, wait…
Brandon,
The wounds inflicted on Dondarrion in his many deaths never fully heal, leaving him a scarecrow of a man. The eye he lost never grew back, and he was once killed by a severe blow to the head, which caved half of his skull in. However, it is not the physical damage Dondarrion sustains which particularly bother him, but that coming back each time takes a heavy toll. Every time Dondarrion is resurrected large pieces of who he is, large chunks of his memory are lost. In the books, Dondarrion goes on to explain to Arya that after dying and being resurrected six times, he has lost all of his memories from before the point when Ned Stark sent him out from King’s Landing on the mission to bring Gregor Clegane to justice. He has no memories of the castle he grew up in, or the woman he was betrothed to marry. Even so, Dondarrion is still determined to uphold the mission Ned Stark sent him on; indeed as his other memories fade, he becomes fixated on this one goal he can still remember.
The confirmation I was just waiting for! He ALWAYS comes back! And to see him in this Stark outfit… I shed a tear. Oh Jon, oh Jon <3
Melisandre told Stannis “I have seen myself walk amongst the battlements of Winterfell. I have seen the flayed man banners lowered to the ground.”
Looking more likely she may do just that but she clearly misinterpreted her vision by thinking it’s Stannis who will make it happen. Would not be the first time.
King in the North Carolina,
I don’t think he will use that as a way out. In my opinion Jon Snow made too many sacrifices to keep that vow to just give it up now. Killed Quorin Halfhand, gave up Ygritte, I mean too many sacrifices that for him might seem bigger than his own death. Plus he would probably rationalize it that his brothers did it “for the Watch” what they thought it was right.
However, that doesn’t mean he’ll stay in the NW. He’s a freaking zombie as far as the NW is concerned. Came back from the dead. Not unlike the wights minus the blue eyes and with more memories but will they truly let him stay and prove he’s still a man instead of a undead?! I mean they cast him aside while he was living…. Who will follow him? I would think they’ll throw stones at him and try to kill him AGAIN. Who knows though.
“This war is just begun. It will last for years. Thousands will die at your command. You will betray the men serving you. You will betray your family. You will betray everything you once held dear… and it will all be worth it, because you are the Son of Fire. You are the Warrior of Light. You will sweep beside this pretender and that one, you will be King.”
-Mel to Stannis.
Also could pertain to Jon instead.
Lyanna_Targaryen,
You ‘CANNOT’ what? How can anyone help if you don’t say?
I’ve just received my ‘knight in shining armour’ halloween outfit. All you need do is say the word and I’m there. Without blowing my trumpet….. I am the greatest swordsman in my hall.
So now that it has all been confirmed……does anyone feel bad for spoiling it for themselves?
You know a bit like having a look at a christmas present before it has even been wrapped….
Thrilled that this confirmed what I’ve thought would be Jon’s arch after FTW since reading ADWD ! I think that Jon Stark makes perfect sense psychologically. His main internal struggle was always between loyalty to his family and duty to Night’s Watch. Being a profoundly honorable kid he was, nothing, and I said nothing, save being stabbed in the stomach by his NW Brothers could resolve this struggle. Now, Jon Snow can claim The North for the family he knows as his, and not as Stannis’ vassal either, but as a Commander of The North. I still think he will do this in Sansa’s and Rickons name, and won’t learn about TOJ quite yet.
I do not think that is Carice. Or Alfie. Are we even 100% that is Kit?
I’m not so skilled in identifying people from the back of their heads?
Were there other pictures of his actual face?
Todo Peniscola has a gallery of set construction pics and one in particular peaked my interest, they are installing siege balllista on the battlements, hmmmmm.
Todo Peniscola GoT
ABee,
That’s Kit alright. 100%.
I’d think there are more pics, unless the author of the released photo was spotted and bolted before getting a chance to take more. The security slipped up here but it’s been tight so far.
tyjon,
I may be “blind” but I don’t see a ballista in any of those pictures.
Maybe Sansa and Theon make their way to The Wall, Sansa tells what happened to her at the hands of Ramsay and Theon (king’s blood) is sacrificed to bring Jon back to life. Jon decides to become Jon Stark (or Benjen comes back to tell him who he is) and marches on Winterfell to avenge Robb and the abuse of Sansa
Either way Im totally stoked for Jon in Stark gear!
That interview was clearly done during EW’s set visit to them filming the finale. Like good, paid by the studio, journalists, they held the interview until the episode aired. The interview was posted immediately after “Mother’s Mercy” aired, and included the note that shortly after the interview, Kit cut his hair. I do like the imagery of EW calling Kit every hour on the hour leading up to the release to find out if he’d cut his hair.
Kit did cut his hair shortly after the interview. In January.
tyjon,
I got excited, as I really wanted this to be a “Blackwater”-style enclosed set for a Battle of Fire or equivalent battle scene (it’s exactly the kind of place that allows for hundreds of Unsullied to be on scene without having to show the whole army, or the army of the enemy for that matter.) However, I really don’t see a ballista! At all! Unless I’m blind. You can’t mean this, right? Sadly, this seems to be a generic Meereen street, with some houses, vendors, medieval construction tools and such.
The more I try to keep up, the more I feel behind and confused!
Paranoia is setting in and I’m questioning everything!
What if this is all an elaborate ruse to have us all believe falsities to maintain secrecy? Would the show go to so much trouble to throw us off the scent?
Or is it really as black and white as it appears and I’m so used to trying to figure out the “conspiracy” I can’t see the forest for the trees? Can I use more clichés or question marks??
I think I’m going to be institutionalized long before S6 premiers…..
Christi,
Theon ends up in the Iron Islands.
And beyond that, Red God resurrection doesn’t require blood sacrifice, as far as we know. Thoros didn’t sacrifice anybody to resurrect Beric.
I’m so glad this was leaked. Kudos to the photog, because the constant questioning was already getting old. My only reservation re: this “news” is it would really, really suck if they make us wait until the end of the season for his resurrection. Fans will be glued to this season without them having to cruelly drag it out. It’s high time we got a little fan reward for our loyalty.
I don’t think it will take much convincing for Jon to release himself from his NW vows. Besides the obvious element of betrayal, the NW has become all but redundant in light of the bigger picture. He doesn’t need them to fight the real battles. He needs much more than them.
I am hoping (with a capital “H”) that Jon isn’t beholden to Mel, nor becomes enthralled to her like Stannis did. Please don’t let that be the part of Jon Snow that he loses.
I am way past ready to see the Boltons get theirs.
grailking,
That is at the beginning, but when she is at the Vale and gets the news the Jon has been chosen as Lord Commander, she is happy for him. In the books she has to pass as a bastard girl, and she finds new respect for Jon.
In the show, she also has a positive reaction once Ramsay tells her about Jon’s new position.
When she was young she sided with her mother. But after everything that happened to Sansa, before she learned that Rickon and Bran were still alive, Jon was the last family member alive.
pdamico,
Jon is in that battle scene in episode 9. Before that, he has to resurrect, deal with the Night’s Watch and wildlings at the Wall, unite (or unite with) the Northern Lords, probably meet Sansa and maybe even Rickon, and arrive near Winterfell to fight Ramsay. So I’d be reaaaally surprised if the resurrection doesn’t happen before the mid-season.
Luka Nieto,
This. With all this scoop, I’m thinking he’s getting back from the dead around ep 4 at the latest.
King in the North Carolina,
It’s not like Jon tried purposefully to escape his vows by killing himself. He was murdered. So his watch ended. Period.
Now, if you are referring to GRRM or D&D, well, it is a fantasy show. This things happen in fantasy shows. There are dragons and direwolves, greenseers and wargs, people who walk into a pit of fire and come out unharmed with 3 dragon babies in her arms…
I feel Jon is an important character in the story. He is one of the few who understand the real threat Westeros faces. As a leader of a 50-men guard in shambles, his leadership and knowledge are totally wasted. He needs to move to a bigger stage, and the only way that could happen is by releasing him of his vow.
I hope you’re right, Luka.
After 5 years, I’m so ready for this show to develop a key, centralized story (especially ready for it to be a prolonged Jon Snow one, which, IMO, is the real meat of this epic). I know they have a mess of characters and arcs to juggle, but the constant breaking away for, sometimes, episodes at a stretch, detracts from momentum. The many POV’s work wonderfully in the books, but not so much for a TV show.
ABee,
It’s scary to think that way. They wouldn’t would they? Now you’ve got me worried.
No they couldn’t. They’d have a revolution on their hands. Fans would be up in arms.
We must think positive only thoughts.
Jon is coming back!
Why filming the ToJ in Northern Ireland in the middle of another big battle (with Bolton banners around), when that scene is being filmed in Spain? I know CGI guys are wizards, but seriously, the light in Spain is quite different from the light in NI… They would have to work extra hours just to join the footage from the different locations… As if they did not have lots of work already with everything that goes on in this show…
Let-it-Snow,
According to producers, cast and people around GOT. Jon Snow is dead, finished, gone from the show so there is no point or need of doing that. Sue sources said Kit was shooting at Saintfield and there he is. The biggest spoiler is his outfit/armor.
Yeah, as far as we know…but what makes Jon’s situation interesting is his proximity (in time and location) to the sacrifice of Shireen. Will his resurrection be a “simple” Beric-type resurrection or will R’hllor require something else, given what Mel now knows about Jon? Shireen’s sacrificial intent may be “redirected” or Mel herself may need to make the ultimate sacrifice (Nissa Nissa). Although it is great speculation on my part (knowing nothing really about TWoW), Mel is going to have to make this happen, for better or worse, in the show and book. Upon resurrection, it will be interesting how Jon handles any “sacrifices” made on his behalf.
Did any of you actually, truly, like one hunderd percent believe he was actually dead? I mean come on are you that daft?
I don’t think we’ll be hearing the line “You know nothing, Jon Snow (Targaryen-Stark)” again, or will we?
Congrats to the writers for stirring it up all summer; driving the rabble mad with grief and confusion and assuring an audience for Season 6 that will make HBO’s board of directors so happy that they may just make a dragon the new company logo.
Let-it-Snow,
I do think he ‘lives’ in some sense of the word. I am not trying to be a doubter in this respect. I am more saying that I suffer from information overload and my brain is melting down trying to sift through all the filming timelines and cast sightings. It’s hard not to become unhinged amidst the speculation. I just got to a point where I was like “wait a minute, how far would they really go to keep a secret?!”
I trust in Sue the Fury. She posts credible information and the fans here are extremely intelligent, helping make sense of it all.
I really just need to shut up, sit back and wait for it all to unfurl.
God of tits and wine,
loved your comment 😉
Lol this man brain is actually farting :))
Beric was dead…Cat was dead…Karsi was dead…Jon is dead. It sort of takes a death in order for the resurrection spell to work. So yeah, we are a bit daft.
Brendon,
Sansa has neither ability nor motive to make Jon a Stark. After all, she knows Rickon Stark is alive and well. She might well be with him by this point.
Hodor’s Bastard,
True: but one possibility is (or was) ressesutaion. Someone with the power to heal death can probably heal mere mortal wounds, too. I still suspect something closer to this: otherwise Jon goes around full of holes hereafter!
Wimsey,
Oh, Jon is going to have some incredible scars to show his buddies at future “the north remembers” parties at Deepwood Motte! 🙂
pdamico,
They don’t work in the books either and AFFC and ADWD is the perfect example for that,especially AFFC which had half the important characters missing and half new characters we don’t care about . So yeah !
TheMannis,
This made me choke on my Cheerios. Good one.
Tywin of the Hill,
Well, he didn’t lie! Jon Snow is dead… That pic right there, that’s Jon Stark or Jon Targaryen or whatever… Point is, Jon Snow didn’t come back and Jon Snow died out there on the cold snows of castle black.
All the actors, D&D and HBO executives technically didn’t lie…
Jon is reborn as a badass on a mission! Jon Snow is definitely dead…
Laura,
He IS bastard even if he’s son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell. If he is Rhaegar’s son, he’s still a bastard, just with a different last name: Waters, i think
Phil Necro,
Thank you for that link. I’ve been on youtube for ages watching one after the other. Some excellent videos of GoT out there.
And how cute is Ghost as a puppy 🙂
How did you know?!
Hodor’s Bastard,
But Jons resurrection is several hundred miles away from where Shireen was and also several weeks will have passed between both events. I’m sure it takes at least two weeks to reach the wall from Winterfell – and that’s in summer.
Lulz. More like they CGI in some extra Stark.
Hodor’s Bastard,
For Nissa Nissa to work, Azor Ahai must sacrifice something s/he loves to create a weapon.
Mel as Azor Ahai could work. She sacrifices someone she loves (herself or Stannis, as Nissa Nissa) in order to create a weapon (Jon). Jon would be Lightbringer.
I kinda like that, as it also fits something GRRM said, that Mel isn’t a villain.
I see what you did there….
Does it matter? I don’t think he will go around waving some dragon flag, he owes nothing to the Targs, if anything their decisions made his life miserable. He will become a leader similar to Mance Rayder, uniting the first men both of north and south of the wall.
You just made me think…how the hell does Melisandre get from Winterfell to Castle Black in a day????
He’s still a Snow because he was raised in the North (like the Sand Snakes are Sand despite not being born in Dorne).
Wholeheartedly agree with you!! The strongest prescription available.
To be fair (to myself), I am just having a thought and commenting on it. I am not to be taken seriously.
I do not profess to be right or wrong. Just thinking.
Her broomstick.
https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/melisandre.html
Under whose authority can Jon Snow be released of his vow to the NW? I mean, sure he was dead — and now he’s not — but does that really release him? Does the 999th Lord Commander have that authority, whoever he is? Stannis could, as the one true king, but he and his line are now dead. So that’s out. Did King Robb ever go to the trouble of legitimizing Jon and naming him his heir?
GeekFurious,
Jon and Daeny are Protagonist 1 and Protagonist A. Tyrion is III.
Lisa0527,
Why do you say “in a day”? Any length of time could’ve passed. The only reference point we have is that she travels faster than Davos, as she seems to arrive not much later than him yet she heads out almost a day later. But weeks could’ve passed, for both of them! Any length of time, really.
GhostCR,
Nothing in the books shows she sided with Cat, Sansa is more aware of and follows the cultural norm and nothing shows she hates him at all.
Well, I just looked at Facebook this AM and the “Smoking Bun” is everywhere now. I really hope that WoTW gets the credit for this!
GeekFurious,
None, as proved by the fact that neither one of them appeared (well, Jon did, but only a little) in A Feast For Crows.
Lisa0527,
Who said she went back to CB in a day? In the pilot, Jaime and Cersei are in KL at the beginning and in Winterfell at the end. Does it mean the trip from KL to WF only takes 1 day?
Noob Takes the Black,
Death pretty much releases him. It doesn’t take another person granting the release. The NW take their vow until death. He died.
Noob Takes the Black,
Book hints that Robb legitimized him.
Nightwatch is a dysfunctional organization. It’s assassinated two lord commanders in a row. It has too few men to be useful. Its oaths and traditions make it impossible for it to do its primary goal, which is to defend the realms of men from supernatural threats from beyond the Wall.
To be able to defend humans, Jon has to unite the North, and to do that, he has to turn against the Boltons. If his oath makes that impossible, Jon might say to hell with the oath.
Noob Takes the Black,
Not on the show. It does actually happen in the books; however, GRRM never brings it up again after one small scene, and (as in the TV series) other people are aware that Rickon is still alive.
The episode that would have mentioned it was written by GRRM himself, so (fan speculation to the contrary) it probably is not going to be a plot or character point in the future. In many ways, show and book burns that bridge by having Jon refuse Stannis, and then having relevant characters know about Rickon.
Maria,
There are many other alternatives to how things might unfold.
And Ned, in the name of Robert, sentenced Gregor to death, but nobody cared afterwards. Dead kings’ decrees that did not get enforced don’t have much weight.
Unless, of course, they suit the powerful on call.
Sullied by Knight,
But it really does not release Jon from his vows insofar as other people are concerned. Nobody is going to belive that Jon died and came back. Thus, he is an awol Crow to other people.
Moreover, given Jon’s character, would he consider temporary death true death?
Wimsey,
Definitely. However, as things stand, Nightwatch traditions and oaths are making it impossible for it to do its job, which is to defend the realms of men against “something wicked this way comes.”
In the text, Martin almost always presents oaths as things that need to be questioned. Jaime is one such case. The NW oath is another. Oaths are noble and romantic. Noble knights in white or black, doing their duty, is are noble and romantic. But the text/show present something else. The Nightwatch was on its deathbed, undermanned, corrupt, when we first saw it, and it has gotten worse since then, and the zombies are coming. Going scholastic on the fine points of the oath, spending time on trying to salvage an organization that no longer functions are a waste of time when there’s a zombie apocalypse on the way.
Wimsey,
Temporary death is still death, so it would completely release him.
Plus, I would assume that Bran will somehow communicate with him and reveal the even bigger picture of just how much danger Westeros is in, which would make his vows to the Nights Watch seem very petty and in the way of what he would have to do to save the realm in the big picture of things.
Task number one would be to unite the north, which means getting rid of Ramsay and the Boltons… So the Battle of the Bastards would have to happen.
Wimsey,
Definitely. However, as things stand, Nightwatch traditions and oaths are making it impossible for it to do its job, which is to defend the realms of men against “something wicked this way comes.”
In the text, Martin almost always presents oaths as things that need to be questioned. Jaime’s oaths are an example. The NW oath is another. Oaths are noble and romantic. Noble knights in white or black, doing their duty, is are noble and romantic. But the text/show present something else. The Nightwatch was on its deathbed, undermanned, corrupt, when we first saw it, and it has gotten worse since then, and the zombies are coming. Going scholastic on the fine points of the oath, spending time on trying to salvage an organization that no longer functions are a waste of time when there’s a zombie apocalypse on the way.
I’m still skeptical. Where would he have gotten Stark clothes and armor from when the Starks are all either dead or in hiding, and all their craftsmen are presumably dead, and he presumably has no access to Winterfell at this point even if the Boltons had allowed them to live.
Of course, it’s possible that style of armor is more generally used by northern houses and we just haven’t seen it yet on the few non-Stark northerners we’ve seen. Which goes back to….. northern house hiding Jon’s twin brother. Or this is just another ruse like the White Walker in the window at King’s Landing.
I have a very hard time believing Kit, the showrunners, and HBO execs all blatantly lied about this when there was no need for them to do so. All they had to do was refuse to answer questions about what was happening with Jon next season. They didn’t just say he was dead, they said Jon was going to be with Ned and Robb away from this cruel world, “dead is dead is dead”, etc. Not consistent with resurrection.
lalla,
And that also is important. Given what we have seen and read, northerners would far sooner support Ned’s “true born” son than his belatedly legitimized one. So, Robb’s decree would get ignored. Indeed, it might dismissed for being written under false pretenses: it is predicated on Rickon and Arya being dead (and Bran, too, although he obviously might as well be), and Sansa being a Lannister. All of these prove to be false in the end.
Noob Takes the Black,
Rickon as King in the North could officially release him from his NW vow as well as legitimize him as a Stark. I wouldn’t be surprised if one or both happens this season.
Apollo,
You must only follow the show then, where Shireen was accompanying Stannis for dramatic effect. This book/show difference will be heavily debated until TWoW is released. 🙂
Robb Snow,
The Nights Watch vows;
“Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.”
The second sentence says it all. Jon did die, so it ended…
And predicated on the belief that he’s Neds son. Which he isn’t. Assuming that’s actually revealled at some point.
Robb Snow,
That would be dicey. Does everyone who claims to be king of part of Westeros suddenly gain the authority to release Nights Watchmen from their vows? Could Balon Greyjoy or Renly Baratheon have released people from the NW? Stannis could make that offer because he was the rightful king of all Seven Kingdoms.
Arthur,
I know that he’s technically free of his vows, but Wimsey has a point: how many would seriously believe that Jon was resurrected from the dead? That would be a pretty tall tale in most peoples’ eyes. If he’s truly gonna be free of the Night’s Watch, he’ll need something a bit more official to make it so in the eyes of the rest of the kingdom.
crimethink,
The North doesn’t recognize Stannis as king. They would recognize Rickon Stark as king, and so would recognize him releasing Jon from his NW vows.
Yeah…but that’s the literal interpretation of Nissa Nissa. These mythologies/prophesies tend to have a variety of interpretations. Your “Mel as AA” is plausible but I think Mel is the ultimate tool (possibly melding with Longclaw to become Lightbringer?) in this scenario, rather than the “savior.”
Ashara Dayne,
If you notice the guy next to her either doesn’t have a jacket on it his sleeves are rolled up.. All other people have jackets on so it could be a case of he gave Mel his jacket in between scenes
Arthur,
Jon might say that he died (although he, himself, might not: he might not accept that he did truly die), but who will believe such an outlandish story?
“Death” is nowhere near as easy of a loophole here as it is being made out to be!
Could someone clarify why some believe that because Bran is North of the Wall he does not have a legitimate claim?
He is still a Stark, despite his whereabouts.
Why are some saying Rickon would be King of the North?
Does Bran not have a stronger claim?
I would just as soon consider his mode of dress in that picture generic Northern dress rather than “just like Ned’s.” Being honorable like Ned, naming unborn babies Ned, carries ill omen, as I would imagine dressing like him might. So, in my mind, he’s dressed as a northerner, rather than just like Ned.
I can see the reasoning of the show-runners, directors and such insisting at the time that he was dead dead dead, knowing full well a rabid fandom would be haunting the shooting sites for clues to the contrary. They want to make sure he’s thought of as having died to make sure there is no question to the honor of Jon in considering himself relieved of his NW duties and oaths. They have great plans for this boy, er man – as he is/will be a reborn man. Great plans. Great hero, with honor beyond doubt. Can’t wait for the coming season.
Robb Snow,
I suspect that Rickon would do that only if he was legitimizing Jon Targaryen. Jon Stark simply creates too many practical problems, particularly in a society that thinks bastards necessarily are morally challenged. (Lest you laugh, that was our society until fairly recently!)
ABee,
Because bran doesn’t seem to be coming back anytime soon
ABee,
Bran is gone: he will be embedded in the weir wood and whispering through trees 100 years after all of the other characters are dead.
Hodor’s Bastard,
True! Prophecies are like oaths. Taking them literally will bite where it hurts the most.
edit: Though I do like the thought of Stannis/Shireen as Nissa Nissa. It makes the sacrifice meaningful.
Arthur,
That’s contradicted by the pledge of life and honor “for this night and all nights to come.” Implying that the pledge is in effect forever, not merely until death. Whoever came up with the oath didn’t see a contradiction, as they would have been unfamiliar with “temporary death”.
Wow…just thinking about how extraordinary Season 6 is going to be. The Battle of the Bastards can easily top Hardhome, which I thought impossible a few weeks ago.
What a time to be fan of ASOIAF and GOT.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Well, it was for story, too! It actually made a pretty powerful contribution to the Crows/Dragons story in the end.
ABee,
If the North is gonna rule itself as an independent kingdom, then it needs an actual king. Bran is north of the Wall and hasn’t been seen in years by anyone but Rickon, Osha, and Sam… but Rickon Stark is not missing. He’s alive and well at Last Hearth, where the Umbers will probably try to take back Winterfell for the express purpose of removing the Boltons from power and installing Rickon as King in the North.
You all make valid points about Jon’s death may or may not get him out of the NW vows, and if it does how many people would believe he died.
All I got to say is I think Jon has more important things to worry about right now but I am sure the books/tv show will find a way to make it all make sense (in the GoT world).
I am just excited to see him in his Stark gear, he looks awesome!
crimethink,
My guess is that Jon would make that argument himself! He is more of an “original intent” than a “where is the loophole?” sort of guy.
Wimsey,
Perhaps, but he’s still Ned Stark’s son (as far as anyone knows at least), and the Northerners might feel differently about him if he helps take Winterfell back from the Boltons!
TheMannis,
The North just needs to ask Yara Greyjoy to teach them how to teleport out of danger when you’re surrounded by dogs and trapped inside a fully-garrisoned castle.
Thronetender,
Maybe, but there are a lot easier ways they could have done that that don’t destroy their own credibility. It will presumably be very clear in the first episode of season 6 that he died of his wounds — no need to say so in the offseason. They could have ended the finale with him falling to the snow (as GRRM ended it in ADWD) and not held the shot for several seconds of bleeding out, so that people could question whether he survived his wounds. This would also make Kit’s presence in NI not be evidence of resurrection.
Maria,
It is not even the “literally” that is the problem: it is the failure to consider how many things they could mean! Most good prophecies turn out to be ironic: they predict what happens correctly but not what everyone thinks that they predict.
Face it. After Hardhome “coming back from the dead” is no longer a striking tall story. In fact those who’ve seen the Night’s King’s mass un-deadness and lived to tell the tale, would probably start a fire just about then, blue eyes or not. It should take a bit to convince everyone he’s STILL Jon Snow. Remember they know nothing of Mel’s powers or what the Red God can or cannot do. In fact we only know because of Berric. So they should probably be thinking: Wight at 2 o’clock!!! bring out the fire!
EDIT: I assume we’re still talking how he is out of the NW not how the other Northern lords will let him be Jon Stark and rally the North.
What about the clothes he arrived in Castle Black in Season 1? Or even clothes many, many other Starks may have arrived in Castle Black in the past when they took the black? There may be a storeroom where those are kept.
So the siege stuff that they originally used to “take” Meereen when they used those to fling over cut slave collars from outside to inside the battlements. I like the continuity! The machinery is there and has not been forgotten!
Wimsey,
That too. He was given an unquestionably legitimate exit opportunity by Stannis last season, when he was facing the unpleasant prospect of serving under Alliser Thorne, and refused it; hard to see him nitpicking the vows to get out now when he’s still technically LC.
Valyrian Steel,
BENJEN HYPE? It is the only one that counts.
Robb Snow,
Differently? Yes. That much differently? Maybe not. They might just consider him highly upstanding for a basatrd. So, you don’t hide the good silverware when he visits, but you dont serve him with it either! 😀
TormundsWoman,
Yes, but how many people would believe that Hardhome story, either? It is pretty clear that most of the NW were not buying it. People south of the Wall probably would consider it a blatant lie.
TormundsWoman,
He might have to prove that to the NW and the Wildlings perhaps. Everyone beyond Castle Black and the Gift though will need to be convinced that the Others are even real and are preparing to invade Westeros in the first place… although I suppose given the sheer number of witnesses to the events at Hardhome, it might not be that difficult to convince the Northern lords at least.
Ok, if you like upping the storytelling ante for sensational effect (a la Talisa). But I have confidence that there will be a greater reason, possibly to even more daunting and beneficial effect, as to why GRRM kept Shireen at CB. This is my greatest anticipation for TWoW.
ABee,
I don’t see the point of Bran just becoming the Three Eyed Raven v. 2.0. And, my personal wish for him would be that he has a shot for a richer and more satisfying future than just spending eternity underground bound by tree roots. Seems to me he deserves more than that.
Dragonslayer,
They are still being assembled, don’t think big catapults but smaller versions designed for castle fortifications.
Here’s an example
Luka Nieto,
Here is the picture in question, they are small ballista, basically very big crossbows.
Robb Snow,
And this is something that seems to be getting misanticipated. The Westerosi lords are not going to treat the claim in a sort of: “I knew that this would come, but I hoped it would be after my time…” On the contrary, they are going to laugh at it. The Others, grumpkins, snarks: these are fairy tale figures that might have existed long ago, but are no more real that Elvis is anymore.
Wimsey,
Yeah, preconceived notions about prophecies don’t work. Cersei and Dany suffer from this, as does Mel, who keeps trying to skew what she sees to fit what she believes. Rhaegar may have done something similar.
All of these people, esp Mel, should listen to Forel’s lecture on the cat, and maybe read up a bit on empiricism.
Ah, Wimsey, I fear that you are right. I’ve been wondering about Bran’s fate. Him becoming the Seer means that he would live on, far past his brothers and sisters, yet not in the manner we’d most like to see. That’s part of the “bittersweet” so often mentioned lately.
Technically, though, he would be next in line after Robb to inherit Winterfell. No one but Meera and Hodor know what’s happened to him yet, or where he’s gone. I can’t remember if Sam told Jon he saw Bran heading north. Hodor most likely won’t be saying much on the subject.
I’m wondering what will happen to Hodor – will he return south with Meera? If Bran becomes entwined, there’s no need for Hodor to carry him. Entwined in a tree forever is not the life I’d want to see for Meera. She, being healthy, mobile, smart and determined, would surely head back home, with Bran’s blessing, and take Hodor with her, no?
Anyway, until the Northerners decide to declare Bran gone, he’s the next in line, as women don’t inherit, except in Dorne. (then again, Lollys Stokeworth’s mean older sister was set to inherit, so go figure.)
Hodor’s Bastard,
A greater reason than storytelling? Additional reasons, sure, but not greater!
TormundsWoman,
Everyone who survived the battle of Hardhome is either a White Walker, a wight, or one of Jon’s buddies. The first two groups aren’t talking and the third can be easily dismissed as spinning a story to save their friend.
Ditto for R+L=J of course; the only person who actually knows it is an obscure, reclusive, swamp-dwelling lord who was very close to Ned Stark. Unless there’s some independent evidence of Jon’s parentage it’s hard to see the Tyrells, Lannisters, Martells, fake Baratheons, or anyone outside the North believing Lord Reed’s incredible claim. Daenerys in particular isn’t likely to accept it.
Thronetender,
And I doubt that Meera is going to get the chance to tell anyone soon, either. Indeed, how is she ever going to get back? Will she ever get back?
Wimsey,
How exactly did you deduce that NW doesn’t buy it? I didn’t hear anyone yet advancing that idea in NW. And Jon came out of Hardhome with other crows. You are talking about hushing up a lot of people. There’s also the fact the NW were not ignorant of these issues before Hardhome. Alliser Thorne knows about the undead (Mormont WAS attacked in season 1 after all and they didn’t just forget that) and so are all who are alive there. One of them coming back from the dead is NOT that much of a unbelievable tale anymore as you suggested for them.
I wasn’t talking about the rest of the North or Westeros. I was commenting on NW and how they’ll see Jon Snow’s death and resurrection. They might not want him back even if he’d want to. Which is why he’d probably end up a Stark again.
Wimsey,
The southern lords probably won’t believe it until the Others are at their doorsteps!
I suppose Dany and Tyrion might listen (perhaps with some prodding from Sam), but would that be enough?
crimethink,
It probably will depend on her dragons and how they respond to Jon.
Oh man. I just got a case of the feels while watching that. Chills.
TormundsWoman,
If the NW had bought it, then they would not have executed Jon. If they had believed that the White Walkers really attacked in force and then truly turned all of the dead wildlings into wights, then they would not have considered taking the true enemies future army away from them to be treason.
However, they still think that the Wildlings are the real threat: and you cannot accept the Hardhome story and still think that.
Isn’t it, though? As though this wasn’t exciting enough, we have the ToJ (news of which got me so excited I thought it couldn’t be topped…until this), and other long-awaited moments. The best part is, there’s so much we don’t know!
For those talking about Jon’s death being temporary, yes, technically, it is, but it isn’t temporary like his heart just stopped for a moment, then started, again. Of course, we can’t know for sure how he will be brought back, but if he is reborn from the fire, I’d guess that means a pyre, so he will have been dead for at least a little while…dead-dead, and so it isn’t, at least in my view, like he will just be finding a loophole in his vows from a merely “technical” death. I’m not sure if I’m expressing myself clearly, but it makes sense in my mind. Moreover, I wasn’t trying to suggest yesterday he will become Jon Stark as King in the North, merely that he will be embracing his Starkness, something he had denied himself because of his NW vows when Stannis offered him legitimacy. Finally, while I don’t think Robb’s will will come into play, since it hasn’t been mentioned in the show-world, Robb was proclaimed King in the North, so if it somehow was brought up in the show, I doubt northerners would just dismiss it.
I can’t wait to see how it all unfolds, and I do believe, based on the quote I posted from ASOS a couple of days ago,
, Bran will see everything which happens through the eyes of Ghost. If it isn’t Bran who sees it, it will be BR.
I agree. Obviously, this is his lifelong burden to bear, possibly to great benefit to the story as the master of weirnet! Hopefully the CotF can craft something for Bran to enable him to ride a horse or mammoth (or giant) easily, like Tyrion initiated in S1. But in this world of resurrection and powerful antidotes to poison effects, it seems like there could be a spell/treatment to help heal bones and mend spinal cords and nerve endings! 🙂
I disagree. I think they believe what happened at Hardhome, but while they may not fully grasp how dire the situation, even if they did, it wouldn’t really matter, imo. Their prejudices against the Wildlings run far, far too deep. To use a modern analogy, what threat would be so great the Palestinians and Israelis would set their long-standing prejudices against each other and join forces to fight?
Ok…now you’re simply mincing words. Good, possibly greater, things will come to those who wait…patiently.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Ha! A very good analogy.
And no, they would not stand togheter, even if they knew how dire the situation was.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I’ve waited for 10 years. And I can wait for 10 more, it would not metter. Martin will never finish ADOS. TWOW? The chances of it too come out, too me are 40%.
Unlike some people, I remenber: ”ADWD will be out in 2006”.
No, women inherit in Westeros, it’s just that outside of Dorne they operate on male-preference primogeniture (brothers before sisters), whereas Dorne is absolute primogeniture. So in the North the inheritance order amongst the Stark children is Robb/Bran/Rickon/Sansa/Arya, whereas in Dorne it would be Robb/Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon.
Wimsey,
Don’t tell me what to accept, Wimsey. That’s just rude and I have a mind of my own, thank you very much!
Plus I consider you’re reasoning off base and speculation. And the “they wouldn’t execute Jon if they had believed Hardhome” is debatable.
To start off: if the NW didn’t believe Hardhome was a real WW or Wights threat but that the wildlings are, they wouldn’t have let Jon and the survivors of Hardhome through the Wall, in the first place. Alliser Thorne doesn’t have the resources to feed so many prisoners to begin with and leaving them to die off outside his Wall would be the perfect solution to all his wildlings problems. So no. Your theory doesn’t work for me. Unless he was build of stupid. And he’s so far a very perceptive commander even if something of an ass.
It would also pose the questions: where the hell did half (or more) of the force Jon left with disappear? And how come wildings and crows come together back with EXTRA wildlings that supposedly attacked the force that went to Hardhome. It’s a LOT of mental gymnastics for me. You’re welcome to it though.
He might still be a bastard, but the whole
It is really spelled out, Ned asks them why they were not with Rheager, then he asks them why they were not with Aerys or in Kings Landing. Since Aerys and Rheagar are dead they should be with Viserys. But instead they tell Ned that the Kingsgaurd doesn’t flee, and that they have sworn a vow. Their vow is to protect the King, and that is what they were doing.
Of course it is a whole different story to actually prove that Jon is a legitimate son of Rheagar, within the story.
But perhaps he will never come that point within the story.
In any event, bastards aren’t looked down on as much in the North as they are in the South. It is mostly in the South with the exclusion of Dorne, where they are really against bastards.
Jon could leave the Nights Watch without breaking his vows. This was the original Nights Watch Vows:
Jon will follow his vows in spirit, it is about deciding what is really important. The main theme of the vows is to guard the realms of men. That is what Jon will do. He can’t protect the realm by sitting around at the Wall with 50 Nights Watch men and a few Wildlings, he needs an army. If he wants to gather an army the North needs to unite. Most likely he will never break the spirit of his Nights Watch vows, but others might see him as an oathbreaker. I think a part of Jon’s story might be to become more flexible in how he sees justice, rules and vows.
Wimsey,
I think it all goes back to Syrio’s cat, and seeing what’s in front of you, rather than filling the space with preconceived notions. The Watch has seen and fought the Watchers and the wights. I don’t think that they forgot what they experienced. They dismiss what they’ve seen, and react instead to all manner of things that have nothing to do with the immediate problem (Syrio’s cat): “our tradition! Oh no the wildlings! They’re neither all male nor celibate! They haven’t taken the oaths! They outnumber us! We can’t move against the Boltons because the Watch stays out!”
They’re incapable of action because they haven’t accepted what they’ve literally seen, which is that a rather large army of zombies, led by Walkers, is heading toward them.
Robb Snow,
Okay, if we get King Rickon — The King in the North! — pretty soon, then I guess I can see him running about as a Stark.
(And as for death releasing Jon Snow… I mean, yes, but then he’s back alive, so he’s not dead. He died. But he’s not dead. I don’t think we have much precedent for that within the Night’s Watch)
Also, if Rickon legitimizes Jon, might Jon serve as Regent? Rickon’s still pretty young, even the Show Version of Rickon.
I’ve always called it the
Noob Takes the Black,
I think this is a strong possibility, and all the more reason for Rickon to legitimize him.
Yeah, I can respect the patience. I’m in the same boat, frustrated but with many SF alternatives to pursue. But we must remain optimistic!
Go Jon GO , you have your revenge but you are also above all , the hero of the battle for The North ; of course NO flashback.JON LIVES go go… The North REMEMBER and we also!
What are you basing that on?
Did the Robb/Cat scene
happened in the show? I don’t remember. D:
Because he still has some avenging to do for Robb.
TheMannis,
TheBlackSwan,
Nope
Noob Takes the Black,
I’m sure the watch would have no problem release him, I mean they did stab him to death to you know get rid of him lol
TheBlackSwan,
No. Not only did that scene not happen, they removed the entire context in which that scene was necessary.
The Chosen Bun
I am not telling you what to accept. I am laying out the syllogism. If Thorne & Co. had accepted the truth of Hardhome, then they would not have considered what Jon did to be treason. But they did consider what Jon did to be treason. Ergo, they cannot have accepted the truth of Hardhome. It’s a simple modus tollens deduction.
Otherwise you are left trying to explain how they could both hold that it is simultaneously true that they recognize that Jon just saved the Wall from an even larger Undead Army than it now faces and and also recognize Jon as a traitor.
As for why they let Jon through? Well, remember, “they” didn’t: Thorne did. And he did so with equivocation, while so many others looked on incredulously. We do not see the dynamics of what happened: but what we probably see is the reaction. Remember, Thorne & Co. let Jon through then: and later judge Jon a traitor for this. So, clearly they “changed their minds” afterwards.
Not fully grasping how dire the situations is is inadequate for that. If they accepted that the Hardhome story is true, then they accept that although the WW have just increased their army considerably by adding so many Wildlings to their Wight Army, Jon has just stolen away a big chunk of the WW’s future army. How can they simultaneously accept that Jon did that AND think that Jon is a traitor for doing this?
Actually, very few remaining members of the NW have fought the Wights or seen the Walkers. Remember, on the show, very few of the people who went forth with Mormont returned. Even in the books, it was a much smaller party of people who assassinate Jon and it made up of people who stayed behind and never seemed to fully wrap their minds around what the Others represented or what danger leaving the Wildlings north of the Wall created. As such, they could not accept that the Wildlings were a lesser threat than or necessary allies against the Others.
I think GRRM has stated that Rob’s will be resolved in the future. But of course it is not even 100% certain that Rob named Jon as his heir. Although it seems very, very unlikely that he would have named anyone else. In the books Catelyn asks him to name some far off family from the Vale. But the Northerners would never go for that, they would rather take Jon then, who was raised in the North as a Stark.
In the books Jon does not accept Stannis’s offer because he would have to burn the Godswood, and he would have to give up the Old Gods. That is a really big objection for Jon against accepting the offer.
Of course this didn’t happen in the show, but I think the one similarity that can be taken from Stannis’s offer, is his offer.
Winterfell is not Stannis’s possession to offer. If Jon does somehow become the ruler in the North it would be because he took it for himself, and because he accepted his heritage, that would be the difference.
Northerners aren’t that much against bastards. Hornwood would very likely have gone to Larence Snow, before Ramsay intervened. And even with Ramsay, Northerners aren’t against him for being a bastard, it isn’t even mentioned. They are against him because of his barbaric practices.
Rickon and Bran are still alive, so it is obvious that Winterfell would and should go to one of them.
But at the same time you also have to practical. The kingdom is facing winter, there has been a war raging and there are Ice demons and zombies approaching. They cannot have a child as King or as ruler.
Jon grew up with his siblings in Winterfell, so the whole North already knows him. It isn’t just about having the best claim, politics or other considerations can also make a difference, as we constantly see in Westeros.
If Jon arrives with a Wildling army, he might look like a very good prospect to the North. The same is true of someone like Sansa as well, if she turned up with the army of the Vale, the Northern Lords would be much more inclined to declare for her.
There is also another way for Jon to become the King in the North, and that would be through his true heritage as a Targaryen.
The North could just declare for him as the real King of Westeros. That does not mean he would ever have to set foot out of the North or that the rest of realm would recognize this claim.
The Kings of England styled themselves as Kings of France for years, even though they hardly ever set foot in France.
In such a case Jon could still be the defecto “King of North”, and Rickon or Bran could still be the Lord of Winterfell.
But those are just a few examples of how Jon might end up as ruler in the North, I personally think it is much more likely that he will just fight for Rickon. Perhaps he could be Rickon’s Lord Protector until he comes of age.
No, I’m really not! Or are you referring to the “superstory” emerging from all 5 or 6 stories? (There really is not a word for that, as the idea of telling a more general story from a bunch of specific ones is almost never done outside of fantasy and thus has never received much attention in the literary world.)
Since when does logic and reason trump profoundly deep-seeded, like over hundreds or thousands of years, prejudices?
I’m not sure that this is true. And even if they are not as opposed to bastards are are southerners, they do not seem so enamored by them that they want them for their lords. The books and show both depict that northerners holding to a lot of superstitions about bastards being fundamentally less moral than trueborns are. After all, from where did Jon get it? It could not have been solely from Catelyn. Indeed, we never see or read Jon note that other people told him that being a bastard was not as bad as all of that.
If so, then I have not read that. If GRRM intended to make it important, then some indication of it should have been in Crows/Dragons. However, instead we learn that there are Northerners aware that Rickon is alive and even of his whereabouts. (On the show, Sansa learns the former, but does not yet know the latter.)
All of that written, I do think it possible that Tormund et al. might declare Jon to be King Beyond the Wall (sojourning south of the Wall). The Wildlings are a disorganized lot, but they do seem to truly respect bravery and loyalty: and they really have to be in Jon’s camp right now, both on the show and in the books.
Good question – do you think she and Hodor could make it back by themselves? They made it there with Bran and Jojen, but neither boy was a big help as a hunter or fighter; defense and food were both basically Meera. What a sad fate for her, were she to be stranded there for eternity, in the name of completing Jojen’s visions.
Maybe the Children could escort them part way, with Bran posting messages on the Weirwood network asking for a rescue crew to meet them. Don’t know. Can’t believe her character was allowed to live, only to waste away.
Valaquen,
This is such a pile of c**p. George should whip their asses to the curb. Given their’s is the biggest site devoted to ASOIAF with the inside track via George, this stuff should never, ever have happened.
If I were George, I would be really distracted and have a hard time focusing on writing when there was this big a hole his fandom.
A very similar type of clothing was also seen on the northern character that brienne and jaime met in season 3, in the ‘two quick deaths’ scene. Its a northern fashion but the show runners will be using it to emphasize jons stark roots as he takes his hype to the next level
Wimsey,
Your syllogism is wrong for two reasons:
1. You cannot refuse to accept the Hardhome truth, maintain that wildlings are the REAL threat and still allow wildlings (YOUR REAL THREAT) to cross the Wall. They will eat you out of your home and they will kill you in your sleep, no? Letting them pass doesn’t jive with your logic. You being Ser Alliser Thorne that represents that NW’s fraction, unless you wanna go with the boy who just joined that hates the wildlings as the REAL they. (I’m sure we’ll be seeing him given commands soon!)
2. Yes, you can execute Jon Snow for helping the wildlings while accepting HH. Helping them reduced the NW force, crows that were needed to fight the WW and wights. The NW was split on helping the wildlings. The fraction that refused to help is the fraction that stabbed him. Perfectly logical really.
In the Night’s Watch’s oath there is a phrase “It shall not until my death”. So, I think that after Jon comes back to life, he will be released from that oath.
Oh … Thanks for that! I was trying to figure out how people could be saying that Sansa could hold Winterfell, or even be Queen of the North, as I saw mentioned, if women couldn’t inherit.
The logic is mine for explaining what they are doing, not theirs. But what it really comes down to is if they believed the Hardhome story, then they would be so terrified of what is coming and so relieved that at least this lot of Wildlings was not among the Undead coming to get them. If they are not that scared, then they are not accepting the story.
Indeed, this probably represents the paradoxical case where, deep down, they are so terrified that what Jon is saying might be true that they are bending over backwards to convince themselves that it is not true. Assuming that they survive, it will be a huge eye-opener for Thorne, Marsh, etc., when the Walkers really arrive with a huge army of undead. Then, it will be “oh shit, the bastard was right after all….”
Indeed, I’m not sure how I want to see them die. On one hand, it would be fitting if Ramsay did get to the Wall and butcher them all. On another hand, it would be equally (if not more) fitting if the Walkers finish them off with hoardes of wights that could have been gotten south of the Wall. And yet on my foot (sorry, out of hands), just having the Loyalists, Mel and the Wildlings kill them all would be fitting.
Sigh. So many ways to kill, yet only one life each to be taken…..
Marcus,
Stephen Dillane is a little reclusive, so it would not surprise me at all if he has managed to stay under the radar on the sets and around the locations.
You mean… hopefully Stannis is alive and coming back, right?!
Sean C. has the wrong of it. Women can inherit. However, all of their brothers (not just their older brothers) come in front of them. This might be relevant in the books, where Sansa believes that all of her brothers are dead: indeed, she even thinks of herself as the Heiress of Winterfell in her Winter chapter. However, given that the show seems to be setting Sansa up to be Rickon’s agent, I am betting that this never goes anywhere in the books. Hopefully Sansa will get detoured, and this will not just be a dead end.
Wimsey,
That may be true of the southern lords but the Northern lords will believe. And the wildlings will attest to that it and they have Wun Wun. If you don’t believe in giants and then you see one standing in front of you, it might make them wonder what else are they wrong about. Plus any NW men, if any, leave with Jon can attest to Hardhome. Then there was the matter of tens of thousands of wildlings who just up and disappeared. Hardhome explains that too.
Also I think the NW will know he is dead because they will verify no pulse, will hide his body and Mel won’t find him until the next day. Then she will resurrect him. What I’m curious about is if others will witness it or will she do it secretly.
And finally Sam…I think he will finally find evidence st the Citadel that the Wall was built to stop the WW and not to keep the Wildlings out. Perhaps that will go a long way toward making them believe that what Jon is saying is true.
That’s the way Sean said it, Wimsey; he listed all the brothers, including Rickon, before Sansa and Arya, if the inheritance is in the North. The second list was the way it would be in Dorne.
The logic may be yours, but you’re trying to impose what your logic would be onto them. You think if they believed the story of Hardhome, they’d just let the WIldlings through, no problem, because they would understand it is to their advantage. I believe they believe what happened at Hardhome, although, again, possibly not the extremity of the situation, but even if they did fully grasp it, they would not be willing to just up and join with the Wildlings. They see Jon as having sacrificed their sworn brother’s to save a bunch of Wildlings, and they cannot see beyond that. As far as they’re concerned, Jon should have just left all the Wildlings to die, because they cannot see beyond their own prejudices. Army of the Dead? They think the Wall will protect them, as it has for thousands of years.
At this point, we’re just going around in circles. You think they don’t believe the story of Hardhome. I guess you think they think Jon is just making it up so he can let his buddies from when he was hanging with Mance et al, through the Wall. I think they believe his story, but between their prejudices and their false sense of security, they don’t care. I go back to my analogy of Palestinians and Israelis.
Why is he wearing green?
That´s a Tyrell colour, he should be wearing grey, black and white …
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
LOL I just read for 20 min the last bottom of this thread and at this point unless Wimsey admits that NW stabbers CAN stab him and yet accept (at least to some degree) what happened at HH because: reasons, I will be running in circles together will him! I see Miriam and Dame Pasty have joined in too 🙂
Oh, yes and that they’ll believe him dead after taking the pulse (as Dame Pasty mentiones), because that is how the whole thing started.
Yeah check the pattern on ned starks armor here. http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30100000/Eddard-Stark-Baelor-1-09-lord-eddard-ned-stark-30121142-1280-720.jpg
Same exact armor and pattern, its his.
Maceless Fan,
This is the only question that really remains in my mind, what will he do with the mutineers? My guess would be, execute the ring-leader, but it’s the one part I can’t figure out.
Robb Snow,
Tyrion would believe it if Jon told him. He likes and trusts him.
crimethink,
Unless Jon exhibits some Targ qualities, they probably won’t believe him. But who actually believes that Jon won’t, at some point, prove himself a Targ via the dragons, fire or something else appropos?
Mr. Martin is not your bitch. Mr. Martin can associate with anybody he wants.
Besides that, Mr. Martin is very focused on tWoW and shall release it before S6.
This is probably the minority opinion here but I believe some reverse psychology is at play regarding these concerns. Ranting by the obnoxious, including a few at Westeros, AngryGotFan, etc., has garnered much attention in the media, causing more eyes to be focused on the show, more indirect advertisement, more interest, etc. As a possible effect of that “angry” psycho-babble (in addition to the excellent production quality), we have seen the show rise in popularity this season, Emmy awards won, budget increases, etc. I don’t know if book/dvd/blu-ray sales have increased, but that may be the case as well.
I say enjoy the entertainment spewing from the sidelines. We know that E&L are protecting their “word-on-the-page” canon territory in their own obnoxious way and if GRRM does not produce more canon, they are going to be in the passenger seat. This is “insecurity stuff” indeed. I understand the ranting (the internet tends to amplify your type-A tendencies) and even the crude episode leaks but look at it from HBO’s and D&D’s bottom line. It ain’t hurting anyone who matters, including GRRM. If you doubt it, read the latest 10-Q quarterly statement from Time-Warner. This is going to be a very good year for them (again). Good for us too!
Dame Pasty,
This post underlines a major challenge going forward. It will definitely be easier to convince people in the North because they can see evidence firsthand or hear things from people they know and trust. But what about the people throughout the rest of the world? Two key pieces of information will presumably need to be disseminated to large numbers of people. One, Jon Snow died and was resurrected. Two, and most importantly, an army of White Walkers and their legions of the dead are bearing down on the North, will likely breach the Wall and invade the Seven Kingdoms.
How does Jon convince everyone that this is truly happening when the White Walkers are the stuff of legend? When only he, the Wildlings and a few members of the Night’s Watch have actually seen them? What lord, peasant or soldier will believe these things without seeing them for their own eyes? There is no proof to show them up close. How do you convince someone in Kings Landing that they need to believe in this existential threat when they are predisposed not to believe in magic or the supernatural at all?
Maybe the answer is you can’t convince them until it’s already too late.
Excellent deduction and I would agree. I think that the Northern Westerosi will be pushed southward by the WW and it won’t be until the WW reach the south that they will believe. The only thing that will save them, if that even happens, are dragons and/or the end of Winter (and who the heck knows how to make that happen?!?!).
This is so exciting. OMG!!! Stark uniform. Holy crap.
🙂
At least in the show, Jon and a few others at the wall have experienced the WW firsthand. In the books, Jon doesn’t really have a clue about the WWs (other than reading about atrocities in HH), only wights and wildlings, when FTW occurs. Only Sam has had any direct learning experience with a WW. This will make both your dilemmas even more dire and difficult.
It will be a hard sell indeed to the rest of Westeros, possibly a fruitless, thankless, hopeless task, but that should not impede the watch leadership. Duty calls! Send those ravens! Send msg via those ships at Eastwatch! Send envoys to the northern houses. Various House reaction will be interesting. Hopefully, the nationalist mutineers will be dealt with severely in early S6/TWoW, so that one barrier is quickly overcome.
Next,
1) Accepting Jon 2.0,
2) Integrating the wildlings & giant into the Gift and energizing them for the northern cause (will they accept Jon 2.0’s leadership? Tormund? Val? Magnar?)
3) WW understanding and progress monitoring/news reports
I’m not sure it’s necessarily that, although it is a realistic/cynical read of the situation. 🙂 I think it’s more that GRRM is a very live and let live kind of guy. E&L love his books but not the show. Well, ok. They have every right to their opinion. Why would he come down on them for that? L’s behavior is ugly but it’s not toward GRRM personally but it’s on her–she is responsible for her own horrible behavior. On the other hand, if it were me, I wouldn’t want to associate with her any more. But it’s not me, it’s GRRM and from what we can see publically (who knows what’s really going on behind the scenes) he’s maintaining the relationship.
I don’t think George gives two shits about what she says. They have both been extremely helpful to him over the years and fiercely loyal (especially her). So she shits on people online sometimes? Yeah, it sucks. It’s often beyond irrational… but why would GRRM care? Why would he ever tell her to stop? He doesn’t rule her. He’s not her father. She’s a grown woman who sometimes acts like someone going through a manic episode (which is what may be happening). BLOCK HER and move on.
If the way we see the Tower of Joy flashback on the show is through Bran’s visions, and perhaps Bran sees Jon resurrected in front of a weirwood tree as well, then we have obvious next steps for Meera and Hodor: Bran says goodbye forever, instructs Meera to go back to Greywater Watch and urge her father to come out and let everyone know who Jon really is, and charges Hodor and Summer with escorting her back safely. Through Summer GPS and the Weirnet he can alert CotF in their vicinity to keep an eye on them until they get to the Wall. I’m hoping that they visit the Isle of Faces on their way south as well!
I love this phrase. Hope it catches on! 😀
Although technically it isn’t really a bun anymore, since the ends are no longer turned under. But ‘smoking ponytail’ doesn’t have quite the same ring to it.
I think jon will be released from his nw vows, and marches south to winterfell to consolidate power in the north and retake winterfell as a waypoint/strategic point in the battle against others. This will happen after benjen returns and takes lord commandership of the nights watch. Rickon will be found and will be the back-up stark in winterfell/ lord of winterfell (job will be king of winterfell during the battle against the other; i.e.-his dreams and dueling with rob as kids) if anything were to happen to jon during the fight against the others. Starks have always been linked to the others and the wall. Benjen (lord commander), jon (stark commander/king of winterfell/the north), rickon (lord of winterfell/back-up stark in winterfell while jon does what’s necessary), and bran (tree god, warg king, what the hell ever). That’s just my take towards what may be happening in the future of the north.
*they didn’t use benjon as bait for jon in the show for nothing*
Se06/ep10 “a time for wolves”
Dame Pasty,
Judging by the latest blog post where he did not thank Elio and Linda i would say that’s not the case .
Marcus,
Noticed that. And he thanked everyone and their mother, including people who have nothing to do with the show, but with the books instead.
Correcto
Saw an Emergency Awesome video where he got slightly mixed up about Cersei’s status
Given Jaimie is of the KG and Tyrion stripped of inheritence and sentenced to death for Regicide, she is in fact “Lady of the Rock”, thing is she wants to be Queen Regent still ( a step up)
We finally now know that once you go black you actually can go back
Wimsey, I’m nowhere where near as adept or practiced as you are at applying scientific reasoning to most facets of human interaction. You must be, and have proven yourself on these boards to be, a most reasonable person, respected and sought after for answers to the questions that arise. I am one of those that respect and admire your scientific and logical mind. Grateful for it in fact, in light of some of the abombinable nonsense I have seen sneak through on most other boards populated by the general public.
Your premise, however, that if the NW killed Jon for treason, then they can’t possibly believe in the harrowing fate coming at them full bore from beyond the wall, might have a snag in it. I think you might have forgotten to take into account the propensity for darkness, the caustic force of boiling bile, and the depths of insanity that would have to go along with being “the most experienced man at the wall.” I’m talking, of course, about Thorne. (So brilliantly played by Owen Teale.)
This man is galled through and through at the thought of an opinionated “twat” being right, being respected, being admired by any other Watchman. This bastard baby lord twat took the position, Lord Commander, that he, Alliser Thorne, was destined to have, by rights of the length of his service and amount of experience. To have the position of First Ranger handed to him by said twat pushed him over the edge.
Yes, he as First Ranger would be obligated to let the Wildings through – it was an instruction left to him by his Lord Commander. He would face death were he to disobey. He couldn’t be seen by the remaining Watchmen to disobey a direct order; that would be an ill-advised precedent to set, a bad example.
He wanted the example of obedience to the Lord Commander to be uppermost in their minds, because he fully intended, even then, to rip the title away from Jon, and become Lord Commander himself.
It’s not so much that he doesn’t know or doesn’t believe what’s coming. He believes. He’s definitely not stupid. Part of what’s made him so crazed has been the conditions on the Wall, of facing almost certain death from every direction. But if he’s going to die, it will be on his terms and with the appropriate title, and HE will be in command, not the twat.
It would be an easy thing for him to influence the handful of NW involved in FTW. Some of them were new recruits. The rawness, vileness, of the new recruits was brought to the forefront by the two who attempted to rape Gilly and beat Sam almost to death. They haven’t been influenced so much by Jon. But even the older ones would be easy to sway. They aren’t experienced, logical thinkers.They were looking for opinions about what’s happening, and Thorne was only too happy to supply those opinions for them. The irony is that the only one who seemed to be wrestling with such a decision was Olly. For the others involved, easy. Thorne said so. So, Jon’s dead, Aemon’s dead, no one to break a tie or take his place. He will be what he always dreamed of being. Lord Commander.
Therefore, by taking into consideration all the vagaries of the human heart and crazed minds, I offer that it is possible for at least some of them to believe what’s coming, yet still participate in murder.
GeekFurious,
Almost there !
But you have to add a *Martin is not your bitch !* to cut it !
GeekFurious,
Umm, that’s what I said his attitude probably was. It’s his business, he can do as he pleases.
Night King is indeed a Stark.
When and why did this get hype thing. Become a phrase?
I’ve seen a couple of people posit Benjen’s convenient return at this critical point. That could conceivably be the showrunners’ way of doing the R+L=J reveal without bringing in a whole new character of Howland Reed (which would explain why we’ve had no casting news for him). Maybe the premise is that Ned confided in him and no other, feeling that Lyanna’s only other surviving sibling had the right to know – plus believing that Benjen would be far out of the way of any Baratheon spies at the Wall. Heck, that might even be why he decided to take the Black in the first place; I’m not sure of the chronology here. Does anybody ever mention how long Benjen has been in the NW?
So anyway, under this scenario, maybe Benjen bursts in when Jon’s corpse has barely cooled, yelling, ‘You idiots! Do you know who you just killed? The true king!’ – at which point the scales finally fall from Mel’s eyes and she realizes that she has a rez job to do. If I remember correctly, Benjen left on his last ranging before news got to the Wall of the death of Robert, so he would not have said anything to Jon (or anybody else) sooner. But wherever he has been, if he’s still alive, surely he would have heard by now that the coast is clear for Jon to go public.
Not that we needed a whole lot of confirmation, but did anyone notice that George in his post of Emmy thank yous included Kit among the actors who were off filming that night and NOT in the parade of “ghosts” I.e. actors that are dead in the show? LOL
If he did, that would infuriate both sides. It’s very simple (however cynical DP says it is)…by having them at opposite ends of the spectrum is good for the smiling bespectacled man in the middle.
Ha, nice catch! He’s not trying to hide it anymore either.
“[…]thanks as well to Emilia and Kit and Dame Diana and Kristian and Natalie and Finn, who were off working and could not be there with us.”
This mummer’s farce is almost done!
(edited to get the damn quote right)
Martin ain’t hiding Jon’s return.
From that blog post…
Thanks to all of them, of course, and thanks as well to Emilia and Kit and Dame Diana and Kristian and Natalie and Finn, who were off working and could not be there with us.
The thoughts about Northern bastards are in Catelyn’s thoughts, she laments that the North are often strange or they have a different culture from the South. She sees one of these different aspects of the culture in the way that Ned takes his bastard to be raised as one of his true born sons. We also see Larence Snow being raised as a squire or ward of the Glovers. And he is also considered as an heir for Hornwood.
I am not saying that Northerners are like the Dornish when it comes to bastards, but they are not as bad as in the South. A lot about a bastards standing in society also depends on how much his natural highborn parent acknowledges him. And Jon was obviously raised alongside his trueborn siblings.
Even in the South a lot depends on the acknowledgement of highborn parents. We see bastards as Hand of King and having small counsel seats. Black Walder grows up in the Frey household next to his trueborn siblings, just like Jon, and a lot of people expect him to become Lord of the Twins at some stage.
It all depends a lot on the circumstances, and we have somewhat of an unique situation at the moment. Some people might not like the idea, but it might still be generally excepted. It is a similar situation to Jon’s Night’s Watch vows some people might always see him as an oathbreaker but most might accept it because of the situation.
One could ask similar questions about how Mance Rayder where ever excepted as King Beyond The Wall when he was a crow to the Wildlings? Or why would the Dorthraki accept Dany as their ruler? It about showing strength and gaining popular support in unique conditions.
As I ve said I ve read somewhere that Robb’s Will are going to be resolved. That could mean a lot of different things, I dont think it will necessarily have a major impact on the story. It could just mean that will finally at least learn what happened to the Robb’s will.
I think Jon will just support Rickon’s claim to Winterfell, and perhaps he could be his regent. But at the same time it is not out of the question that Jon could somehow end up ruling in the North.
is that lady stone heart under the umbrella. also, josh donaldson is azor ahai.
Oh my God. You gave me the biggest lady boner…. EVER.
Let’s go Blue Jays!! Xoxo
So here’s some out-of-the-box thinking as a way for Jon to be released from his vows. Unlikely, but it could be intriguing. Say his body is found, Mel does her thing (preferably having a nice Olly-cue in the process) in front of the remaining “brothers.” He’s back to life, and back as the Lord Commander. He then uses his position as LC to actually abolish the Watch, thus freeing everyone from their vows. We the readers and/or viewers don’t know all the secrets of the Watch, and it may be something within the LC’s purvue should the situation be dire enough.
There are only 50-odd Watchers left and anybody with two functioning brain cells up there will know that they’re doomed, and probably sooner rather than later, so releasing them to do some good might actually work, if it’s possible. Maybe he could find 20 bad men to match Ramsay’s good ones?
Black Walder’s not a bastard. Well, he is, just not the kind we’re talking about.
As for Larence Snow, he seems to be on the same level as Edric Storm, castle-raised but far away from the parent(s) who would be shamed by him. He was only considered because of the Glovers’ meddling and because Lady Donella could not produce an heir.
Robett Glover clearly said “”The evil is in his blood. He is a bastard born of rape. A Snow, no matter what the boy king says.”
Sunfyre,
eh could that not be littlefingers function to be one of the rallying cries that the white walkers are coming,as shady as he is he seems to have credibility with enough important people to at least have some chance of being believed? i guess the maesters could try to spread the word as they seem the most credible neutral faction that is in the area? as far as proof would go i think he could 1 show of the scars 2 he has at least one giant assuming wun wun survives and what better message then a literal mythical creature(as far as southerners go) if he could show up with giants and mammoths more points to his cause. i guess another sign for the south could be the inevitable refugees fleeing the north as it would make tactical sense to get as many non combatants out of the area to keep them from being added to the WW army ,if they dont make a stand at winterfell with its hot-water walls i see them falling back to either Moat Cailin (choke point,but with defenses facing the wrong way i think?)or the twins (the last place they can cross into the south with out needing to get past a major river) as otherwise they will have to cross multiple rivers or go along the coast to approach casterly rock via Ashmark.http://towerofthehand.com/maps/westeros.html
seems the vale could in theory button up under LF orders and attempt to hold out but i would agree with you if the north falls no other place tell dorn provides enough natural boundaries to stop them baring some other force like dragons or whatnot
Shane snow,
very witty, very
lol… not if the men you commanded f*in killed you…
Athos Franco,
There is a theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have got married by a Heart a Tree, Isle of faces near Harrenhall even? If that’s the case given Targaryens allow for polygamous relationships he could be the legit Targaryen heir from that perspective
Outside of that, if he was born in Dorne at ToJ perhaps his surname would be Sand, depends on whether where one is born or is raised takes precedent, normally they are one and the same but not sure I’ve Heard this clarified
Polygmous are also allowed in Dorne, so that Elia (and the Martell) would have accepted this second wedding. Nobody ever asks how the Martell would have reacted to Rhaegar’s actions. In the rest of Westeros it is betrayal or repudiation but for the Martells and Targaryen it should be fine, right ? So the Martells should be accepting of Jon ?
Ghost’s Lunch,
Ghost’s Lunch,
Most people in Westeros don’t consider polygamous marriages valid. They cause to much trouble (e.g. The succession after Aenys I).
I think the bastard surname is applied depending on the region where the bastard was raised, not born.
Tywin of the Hill,
Pretty certain it is the surname of the father, which is affected by region. Hence Starks historically in the north have their bastards called Snow. So the region of the bastard’s father regardless of where he was born or raised.
Edited to add: if the father is known, if not then whatever region they are raised in.
Dame Pasty,
But Aegon the Unworthy had many known bastards from different regions, and some had different bastard surnames: Aegor Rivers, Brynden Rivers, Daemon Waters (later Blackfyre)…
I don’t know if Sue already debunked this…
I hate to give trolls air time, but this one caught my eye on /r/gameofthrones last night. Make of it what you will. FWIW, from his other posts he’s at least definitely in the Belfast area.
[–]Hannibal-REKTer 32 points 1 day ago
Hijacking the top comment here. I live in Saintfiled just round the corner from where this is filmed and have had the GOT security team outside my house for three days looking out for drones to prevent pictures from being taken. They confirmed a lot of stuff, but specifically Jon Snow coming back as a Stark. In addition I got to see them filming a huge fight scene with hundreds of extras playing workings against an army of wights and white walkers.
Ninja edit: Grammar
Actually, my premises sort of rely on it. What would happen after Jon et al. returned? Well, they had a snap decision: and they decided to let Jon through. But now they get these wild stories about the White Walkers slaughtering thousands of Wildlings and then raising them back. They might get wilder stories about how Jon personally dueled and slew one. And then they repeat to themselves the stories about what the Wildlings did the NW here, there, elsewhere. Sure, the wights are bad: but when have the NW witnessed anything like the Hardhome stories? And, sure, they’ve seen that the WW use Wildlings as wights: but how do we know that the WW and the Wildlings are in it together? Wouldn’t two foes unite against a common enemy (i.e., WW + Wildlings vs. the Watch)? After all, Wildlings have no honor, etc.
What you would then get is a lot of people finding “holes” in Jon’s and others’ accounts. And, of course, the different accounts would be different from each other because different people would have seen different things: and that would be evidence that it’s a poorly orchestrated story. And then they would remind themselves that Jon had lived and slept with Wildlings, etc.
It would take very little time for a core of them to convince themselves that this was all a lie orchestrated by Jon and Tormund in the connivance with each other and their people. We see this sort of thing happen all the time in real life, particularly with groups of people who are: 1) afraid, and, 2) not all that bright.
Ultimately, it comes down to this: if Thorne et al. genuinely believe that Jon committed treason by allowing an enemy through the Wall, then they cannot believe that Jon just deprived an enemy of resources and/or added soldiers to fight against the enemy. To call Jon is a traitor is essentially to deny that Hardhome happened.
Tywin of the Hill
Ah, but there is the possibility that Rhaegar “set aside” Ellia in favor of Lyanna. I don’t think that it came up in the show, but Renley was plotting to get Robert to set aside Cersei in favor of Margaery in the first book.
Wimsey,
You can’t just “set aside” your wife on your own. You need approval from the king and probably the high septon.
In the show: “The last time I was in the capital was many years ago. Another wedding. My sister, Elia, and Rhaegar Targaryen, the last dragon. My sister loved him, she bore his children, swaddled them, rocked them, fed them at her own breast. Elia wouldn’t let the wet nurse touch them. And beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman.”
In the show, the Martells are of the opinion that Rhaegar did “set aside” Elia. 🙂
Nothing about how husbands set aside their wives ever is given in the books. We only know that it can be done.
Redstar,
Yes it is, this is the big battle for episode 9.
Redstar,
Kay,
heh, that was the scene that convinced some people I know that Jon Snow is Aegon Tagaryen!
And, yes, that scene does indicate that the Martells do seem to think that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna as opposed to abducting and raping Lyanna. Still, the counter to that is that Lyanna was a paramour, not a wife. Interestingly, though, the Dornish seem to have less problems with paramours than do other people. Of course, the counter to that is, married or unmarried, you should be faithful to your lover (or at least in the same bed when you are “cheating”).
Oh what tangled webs we weave….
Elodin Blackcloak,
Hey is there any way that you can get me in contact with him? i just finished film school in AZ and i’ve been trying to get an in on the set for years?? if you could i would forever be in your debt. seriously.
Wimsey,
In “The Rogue Prince”, Prince Daemon wants to set aside his wife Rhea Royce, but King Viserys refuses his request.
And even if we didn’t have that canon, it’s really quite elementary logic. Westeros has a religious and legal hierarchy around marriages; we know you need the church’s approval to receive an annulment. Why would a man be able to divorce at will, without telling anybody, under such a system? If you could divorce that easily, we’d see evidence of it in the story.
Really? That bit of “logic” completely defies my intellect. 😀
To me as a show watcher, the Martells don’t have a high opinion of Rhaegar Targayen any longer. They did, at one point, believe their princess would one day be Queen, so I believe they would support any course of events that would make them important players in Westeros again.
Firannion,
What if a letter signed from Rhaegar was in the crypt at winterfell ? In the casing at the foot of Lyanna’s statue (or something of the kind). I always wondered if Rhaegar (or even Lyanna) didn’t leave anything in writing given the state things were going – unstable, unpredictable outcome of the war – the first thing you do as a ruler or a prince is to leave instructions/information in writing. (see : robb stark, robert baratheon, stannis…etc.). So, what if Ned hid that piece of writing in the crypt ? Unless GreywaterWatch has it…
“you have a good heart heart, Jon Snow. It will get us all killed.” imo, Thorne doesn’t genuinely believe that Jon committed treason, and he DOES believe the things he heard about Hardhome. He just wants Jon gone. Thorne was the silent, continuing force behind FTW.
So now Jon met Ned and Med told him about his mother.
Harriette Tuttle,
I’ve never bought the idea that there’s proof of R+L=J in the crypts. Ned’s whole goal was to keep it a secret forever; he wouldn’t have gone about hiding clues down there for people to find.
But we don’t know that from the books, unless it is in “Rogue Prince.” (I think that I read that a long time ago, but I remember no details: it’s one of the Dunk and Egg stories, isn’t it?)
Moreover we do not need it to be “easy”: only that it be possible. After all, we would are explaining a lone event: the solution might be simple, but it should not be easy.
We have no reason to think that either of those things are true. Again, what is being left out is the power of people to group-“think” themselves into believing what they want to believe. Thorne wants to believe that Jon is a traitor: and that is a huge initial step towards bringing him around to talking himself (and letting others talk him into) believing that this is true.
This is basic human behavior. It is why we have conspiracy theories. It’s why we have things like climate change deniers and creationists and flat-earthers. It’s why we have anti-vaxers and people who deny that smoking causes cancer. It’s why we have urban myths of all sorts. When people want something to be true badly enough, then they will rationalize themselves into a conviction that this something is true.
Wimsey,
“The Rogue Prince” is one of the two histories of the Dance of the Dragons that GRRM published in recent anthologies.
Sean C.,
Maybe not proof of R+L=J, but I’m convinced that there is more in the Winterfell crypts than old Stark bones and statues. It seems heavily foreshadowed that something of significance is concealed there. Speculating what is fun!
Sean C.,
Fair enough, Ned might not have hidden that (or anything else) in the crypts. But a writing from Rhaegar is plausible. It is either lost/burnt or in someone’s possession. (And like a joker card if we’re talking about Varys or LF).
Tywin of the Hill,
Hmmm, perhaps you’re right. But were Targaryans associated with any particular region in Westeros? Since they were originally from a different country and ruled all 7 kingdoms? You’re probably right.
I’m hoping that there is something of significance there as well, besides precious bones. It was such a tease last season when Sansa was in the WF crypts. I thought she would find or hear something. 🙂 But it was a perfect location for LF to reveal to Sansa that little bit of family history.
Well said.
I’m often asked by somewhat more “casual” friends what exactly it is that’s running through Thorne’s head. “Where is the logic? What is he thinking?” It’s precisely as you’ve said. It’s human.
Dame Pasty,
The Targaryens ruled the Crownlands, in which the bastard surname is Waters.
Sue the Fury,
This thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/3l6kx7/spoilers_all_season_6_news/
Jeff O’Connor (JeffZero on some sites!),
Yes, Thorne is human, and has convinced himself Jon is a traitor for sacrificing sworn Bother’s of the Night’s Watch to save a bunch of Wildlings from the threat of the Wights and Others. He thinks they should have just been left to die, because, well, they’re Wildlings, so who cares whether they live or die. He cannot see beyond his prejudice against the Wildlings, and he sure as shit doesn’t think any Men of the Watch should have lost thier lives trying to help them. That’s my view, at least.
I’m not sure about that. I think his goal was to keep him safe.
DUH
ladysansa,
If you check out the twitter feed up over on the top right, or go to WotW’s twitter account, you’ll see where this (at least I think it’s the same thing…I don’t tend to read that stuff, so I’m not positive) is being discussed and confirmed as fake.
Perhaps Jon Snow has a twin? We haven’t met his mother yet . . .
Lisa0527,
On a broomstick?
Dame Pasty,
Robert had a Stone and a Storm, so it’s not based on the father.
Grrm just confirmed the fate of the hound and jon snow in his post :
http://grrm.livejournal.com/444850.html#comments
if anyone needs more proof that jon snows not dead and there will likely be also a cleganebowl GET HYPED!!!
Personally I highly doubt this, reckon Sansa will be alive until the end (final book and season) and that she has a major role to play in the RL (Queen in Harrenhall) and in Cersei’s arc (Sansa is the Younger Queen IMO, reckon she will have the Vale + Riverlands invade the Westerlands once Cersei has been driven there out of KL…)
If there was a Stark kid to die in S6 or E9 or WoW I would have to go with Rickon (poor Davos…) as it throws the Stark succession of Robbs North/RL Kingdom into deep limbo we can get a North/RL split focused around legitimised Jon and Sansa
That “bastard” conversation with Ramsay IMO is more important than people realise, as is LF feeding the idea to Sansa she can be in charge and in time she may not like the idea that her “bastard brother” who had no place at the table would “disinherit” her, the beauty of Winterfell etc
Jon’s Know,
He is a Stark yes, but his father was Targaryen. Anyone that read the first book in the series would’ve picked up on that little detail (“…promise me Ned.”)
Jon Snow is most certainly dead, but Jon Targaryen is alive and well. For anyone that hasn’t read the books, please do yourself a favor and read them! You’ll enjoy the show more when you finally can compare and contrast all these plot details.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Nope, that’s a different spoiler leak. Also, those supposed leaks don’t mention the rumors from the reddit thread…
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Yeah it’s not hard to understand as a phenomenon as it has to do with age
Thorne is a slightly older man, who has been fighting Wildings for decades he has naturally become bitter and conservative and is set in his ways
Jon and Sam are younger, they don’t have the bitterness of decades of conflict so as newbies are naturally more open to them + they both have direct experience with WW’s so are looking at the bigger picture
These different perspective of values are quite natural across different generations
Tbf Thorne etc have their counterpart with the Thenn at Hardhome (or in the books there’s the Weeper), even though they know of the WW threat there is too much bad blood to want to have to work with the Wildlings
Books are tricky, we don’t clearly know if Jons assassination has to do with Cersei’s ad hoc plot, Jon accommodating the Wildlings which wasn’t as black and white controversial as the show or if it is the perception he is specifically abandoning his post as LC by leading wildlings to march on Winterfell due to Ramsays PL. I don’t think book Thorne if he was there would have been one of the people wielding the knife either, he seems to be set up a “legitimate” opponent to Jon
Yes, TV Thorne confuses me a little. For a while it seemed like the show was making an effort to round out his character a bit by portraying him as a brave warrior, an inspiring leader in battle, and also giving him a few moments of expressing grudging respect for Jon. But now it seems to have swung back toward trying to make us hate him by making him the instigator of the assassination conspiracy. I prefer the more complex “grey” version of Thorne.
Thorne has had it in for Jon since Season 1. He’s threatened Jon before (“You’ll hang for this” and “give me an excuse”), wished death on him numerous times, and even already kinda tried to kill Jon once by authorizing the raid on Craster’s Keep (with some prodding from Janos Slynt). He doesn’t like Jon, he’s never liked Jon, he doesn’t want Jon as his commander, and really only did as he was bid at all when Jon was LC so he didn’t end up like Slynt.
It’s also no coincidence that Thorne waited until Stannis, Aemon, and Sam were gone before finally going through with the assassination. They were Jon’s biggest allies at the Wall, and without them Jon was finally vulnerable.
There’s nothing weird or out of character about Thorne killing Jon, given their long, acrimonious history. He was pretty much just waiting for the right time to strike.
Robb Snow,
It’s different from the books, therefore it’s bad.
I agree with you here. Thorne killing Jon is much more better then Marsh. He is a character we know very well, and we know he hates Jon. He always hated him.
Adding a new character to kill Jon would be pointless. People don’t know Marsh, neither care about him, and him apearing in 3 episode would not have changed that. But people know Thorne. They know of his dislike for Jon, but they also know that he is no coward to stab Jon in ”the back” (like he could do without opening the gate) so there is a certain doubt, if he will do something against Jon or not. Especially that we know he is not completly ”bad”. Just a comander who disagrees with Jon. You can see that when he stabs him, he doesn’t luagh/smile, or feel any joy in that act. He tried to advise Jon, against helping the wildlings, something he considered treason.
In my opinion FTW is even better in the show then in the books. I actoully liked Olly giving the final blow. I know many don’t agree, but this is my opinion.
We see Jon trying to take care of Olly: Taking him as steward, saying that one day he may even become LC, training him,…etc. That made me even more sad for Jon, in those finalle moments. He failed everyone, he failed Mance, he failed Ygrite. he failed his brothers. he failed the wildlings. And he failed even this little boy.
So you may freely state your opinion. but to me FTW was much better then in the books. Mostly because there was no Marsh.
EDIT: And very big, thank you! to Owen, who gave Thorne, in my opinion, more personality/character, in what little episodes he had, then he was given hin 5 books.
hodor,
That is true – They need to connive a need for Jon to fight south rather than try and defend the wall against attacks.
Some possibilities –
Jon needs to get to the crypt for something to fight the white walkers.
Pink letter (fake) where Jon is drawn to defend his Sister from Bolton captivity.
ThinkCenter,
That is my guess aswell. Ramsey writing a fake letter to draw Jon open field, to avoid a siege. But he has no clue that the wildlings are loyal to Jon/or he thinks he can fight them more easly in open field.
I don’t get the fake letter to draw out Jon into an open field battle. If he suspects Sansa to have gone to Castle Black and sends a taunting letter to the Watch, than inbthe Watch’s eyes, he’s apparantly provoking a fight for no reason. Basically imagine Tywin writing the Watch: we have Sansa, come fight me in KL.. and if Sansa had made it to Castle Black, he would look like an utter fool. And why would Roose support this all?!?!
And if Jon does fall for that, than he is a much worse battle tactician than Robb.
Ser Oromis Locke,
Its not falling for it. I fully expect him to know this to be a trap if he decides to go.
But that is he’s sister we are talking about. he would definetly go to rescue her, even if he knows he walks into a trap.
As for Ramsey’s reason. He would want to avoid a siege. He could also think that with his cavallary, he has better chances in open field, rether then in a prolonged siege.
Also they are desperate, Sansa was the only thing that kept the lords at bay, as Roose himself said. With her gone, they may be scared of rebellion. so they need to get her back fast.
ok so in the books there is a character who is wright (kinda….) of a nights watch…..sooo im thinking that this could be kit Harrington come back.
but if it is id prefer ghost becoming Jon instead (difficult to portray ik idc).
Ok guys need some help on swords here. My knowledge is very limited and I’ve probably got different ideas confused in my tiny mind. Do the special ones have any kind of conducting or ‘amplifying’ effect as far as we know? So if someone, for sake of argument, was placed on a funeral pyre with their magical-white-walker-killing sword could it contain, or be a conduit for, resurrecting properties? I’m thinking of when they use paddles to resuscitate people with electric shocks, or even a battery with stored energy, perhaps from said white walker or another source, which suddenly provides power when the right combination of other factors are met. (Like IRL fire needs heat + oxygen + fuel, just two of the three together doesn’t work.)
I could be waaaaaaaay off course here but I’m sure some of you know as much as there is to know about them. Although tbh I’d be tickled if it just glowed strange colours, even if nothing else happened. I’m easily pleased like that! 😀
I’m hoping the really spoilery battle name Sue won’t reveal is the “Roose and Ramsay suffer horrendous deaths at the hands of those who really deserve revenge on them and the other people Lulu’s Mum hates get completely wiped off the face of the planet too battle”, but it’s a bit of a mouthful 😉
I’ve made a full analysis video on this picture if anyone was interesteddd 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K46EyfjNkP8
At Los Siete Reinos they wrote that the extras call this huge battle Scene Happening in the North: The Battle of the Bastards O_O
Valentina,
Your videos are pretty cool 🙂
Lulus Mum,
People have really blown this way out of proportion. I sort of wish I hadn’t said anything.
I personally am not interested what ‘they’ call it. What gets me hyped is that Jon is there, and hopefully someone with the last name Bolton will get killed. I love GoT’s battle scenes. I re-watched Hardhome for 5 nights straight after it aired. And knowing that the same director is filming this battle makes it so much more exciting.
Being fairly new here, are the over 600 replies a new record for a post? Do the mods keep like a count?
Valentina,
I agree with you, this is not a flashback.
As much of a cold-hearted slimeball as he is, I wouldn’t mind Roose getting the dignity of a quick death in battle, and it would seem just for Jon to be the one to deliver it in Robb’s name. But I can’t imagine anyone in the audience feeling satisfied if Ramsay dies suddenly, without lingering pain and terror of the sort that he likes to inflict. A woman can hope that the big X is there for a dramatic reason.
It would be most interesting if Theon were still in the vicinity and offered the opportunity to exact the Iron Price on a trussed-up Ramsay. The camera could linger on Alfie’s expressive face for quite a long while as he considers his options. For me, the ideal outcome would be for him to decide that he’s a better man than his tormentor, hand the knife to someone else and walk off with his head held high, human dignity restored.
But this being GRRM’s world, it seems more likely that Ramsay will betray his own father, then turn tail and scamper off when he sees that the battle isn’t going his way. His reckoning may come later. As others have mentioned, having him hunted down by a pack of dogs or wolves (perhaps led by Nymeria) would be a fitting ending.
Mihnea,
I believe Thorne will actually pin Jon’s murder on Olly. Obviously if word got out that Thorne himself murdered Jon, it could cause the members of the NW who were loyal to Jon to mutiny, and could also provoke a second Wildling attack if word got back to them. Olly is the perfect scapegoat because he’s close to Jon as his steward and because he has a possible motive to kill Jon.
Of course, if Jon comes back to life and tells everyone the truth, that would certainly throw a wrench into Thorne’s plans…
Firannion,
I like the way you are thinking!
Personally I don’t really mind what happens and actually enjoy it more when I know what’s coming, regardless of how horrible/unfair/disappointing it is, but it’s always nice to imagine things go the way you hope they will. Until GRRM and D&D rip our hearts out, throw them on the floor and jump up and down on them for good measure. Again! I’m still holding out for giant killer penguins *fingers crossed* 😀
Is that Theon Greyjoy next him?
Well, that’s good. No idea what it really means. I have no particular theory on this. But I think he’s back.
Maceless Fan,
No, unless they attack him. Jon is not the type who when returned from the dead first thinks of killing his killers who he once knew (I think there would be nothing wrong with this attitude though – equivocations aside, there is no logical issue at all to actions against dangerous people, if they be so, contrary to weird popular belief).
Thank the Seven Heavens!
I knew it would come, but it still does my heart good.
Maise was carrying that penguin purse!!!
Giant Killer Penguins Confirmed!!!
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Penguinbowl confirmed! GET HYPE!! 😀
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Best picture ever?
Penguinbowl Get Hype seriously needs to go viral.
I think the crypt or something similar relating to WW in addition to Sansa will draw Jon south. They will write multiple reasons to justify this.
His other forces join him along the way but Boltons unaware that he does have numbers and a giant now will meet him open field possibly fooled by LF support too.
That would explain 6 distinct armies.
In the books as well I suspect Stannis + Jon will achieve this outcome but with eventual Stannis’s demise in the battle.
He has the numbers, a giant, a direwolf, legendary wildling fighters. The wildlings lack organisation but not strength and Jon can provide the organisation. But that is beside the point – his hand just like at hardhome mission is forced. Also, Robb was a brilliant tactician – not sure where you got that from. He won every battle.
As to fate of the ceasering group – I suspect the non ceasering group will take them to task. Alistair will blame it on the wildlings and this will drive them emotionally closer to following Jon when he does come back.
Your video is awsome
700 comments!
Wow, 700 comments! That’s the highest I have seen recently. Can’t wait for April!!
ALL I care who will have the best boobs in season 6
I figured Harrington would be back as Snow when I saw him in one of the tennis grand slams (Wimbledon?) with his Snow curls intact. He has commented more than once that he is looking SOOO forward to ditching the curls, so I can’t imagine him keeping them for more than a nanosecond after he was released from the GOT contract.
Darquemode,
Maceless Fan,
There seems to be a question of whether he will return as a member of the Watch at all.
Wondering if the Red Witch raises Jon Snow. She is already at the Wall….
The Eunuch,
A similar style of armor is worn by the white walkers.
TheMannis,
I think if he defeats the Boltons and rules the North he will gather everyone to march against the White Walkers.
The Boltons care only about their hold on the North. As long as they rule noone dares to follow John anywhere.
iv taken the black. and that means till i die.
now im dead. and i have risen again im free to become a stark/Targaryen
jon snow lives 🙂