Last week Watchers on the Wall shared exclusive photos of a new set being built near Belfast, Northern Ireland, at Wolf Hill Quarry. If you saw the pictures, you likely understood the importance of this new location for season seven’s story, and now we have more news that may just confirm your best hopes on the scene being filmed there.
After the cut, WOTW sources bring us spoilers about the Oldtown, South and North storylines —And, to boot, we stamp out an annoyingly persistent theory once and for all.
The Wolf Hill scenes will start filming next week, according to our sources. This coincides with the Malpartida shoot, which may just be the only sequence of the season that is even more immense than the one germane to this report. Exactly how large will it be? Wolf Hill will have 300 wights. This number of extras likely means this won’t be a brief affair (unlike, say, Bran’s vision of the Night King’s undead army in “Hold the Door”.) Instead, we should expect a dynamic and elaborate sequence —And one that will involve much more than a few hundred wights after all the fancy post-production is done. If any doubt remains, we have been told Wolf Hill Quarry is booked for 3 weeks of filming.
As for the assorted spoilers, there is a bit of everything today. Perhaps the most expected development our sources could confirm for us is that Jorah goes to Oldtown. Looking for a cure, Jorah will meet Sam at the Citadel. Sam will help Jorah once he learns he is the son of Sam’s former Lord Commander, the Old Bear Jeor Mormont.
As a little tidbit, we were told that Cersei’s Queensguard will sport a new uniform. Though the armor remains a mystery, we got to see the Cersei-inspired undergarments a few weeks ago. If the rampant new look of the throne room is anything to go by, it’s safe to assume we can say goodbye to the familiar Baratheon antler themes.
On to the chilly North! As none of its scenes are being filmed in Spain, some readers may get the notion that not much will happen in this kingdom this year. Granted, it appears that the “big battle episode” won’t take place in the North (arguably for the first time since season two), but that doesn’t mean there is no excitement to be found up there.
Our sources reveal the three Stark siblings will reunite —That is: Sansa, Arya and Bran. Just as I’m sure we’re all itching to witness, it will all be quite happy and emotional… For a while. There will be conflict between Sansa and Arya. Their life experiences have been poles apart since they last saw each other: Arya always had a more rigid moral code, and though the Faceless Men tried to stifle it, instead they strengthened it; Meanwhile, Sansa has learnt to be more pragmatic —The treacheries of the court and Littlefinger’s realpolitik lessons left their mark on her. Having developed very different perspectives, Sansa and Arya will clash over the matter of ruling. Sharing their experiences would help them sympathize and understand each other… Yet they won’t, at least not initially. Upon noticing this sisterly split, Littlefinger will jump at the chance to take advantage.
Last of all, I am enormously happy to report that Watchers on the Wall can put a certain “theory” to bed. If any in our readership believed a certain insistent rumor, the following may be a relief to hear: Sansa will NOT be (or get) pregnant in season seven.
Hold the door!
300 wights. Fantastic! You can see a passageway in the ice being built at the rear of the quarry set, so I’m assuming it’s an opening in the wall?
Another week goes by, and another set of spilers just confirmed the big reddit leak.
Now, apparently the script was given to certain people, with minor alterations, so that the showrunners knew exactly who leaked…
Therefore, one or more pieces of the puzzle are actually untrue. Not to mention that there are some things left unaswered, so hopefully season 7 will still have some surprises.
IMO a certain character´s secret birth name in the leaks and how they find some secret documents is the bogus info ( at least is that what I want to believe)…
Priscila,
That’s an interesting point… you think D&D pulled a Tyrion on the leak perpetrator?
Wow, 300 wights?! And 3 weeks or filming?! Yeah, this excersion is going to be a lot bigger than I’d imagined. So much for Kit having it easier this season, lol. *fingers crossed we get some filming photos out of this shoot*
Yay, for Sam and Jorah!! And for the fact that Sam’s connection to the Old Bear will be brought up.
Sigh, at the Arya/Sansa tension. It seems this is becoming a pattern with Sansa and her reunions with her long-lost siblings. I hope the Arya & Bran reunion is at least free of conflict.
Yay for Stark reuinion!
I’m really hoping we’ll get a Jon and Arya reuinion this season, too. It’s the one I’ve been waiting for since season 1!
One storyline gets action and big battles and alliances, while the North gets a catfight. Geez….
This is so exciting
Hold the door!!!
I cant believe that the leaks are getting confirmed …. no, sorry , I can’t believe the leaked leaked whole season story ( big face palm )
Priscila,
Where are you getting that from?? A while ago, I saw someone on Reddit making that exact same guess, but it was only their assumption. So, was this confirmed?
Apollo,
Hahaha…you are right, maybe they are learning with Tyrion…
How about the third twist DnD keeps promising us is actually the end of Tyrion´s infamous brothel joke?
Priscila,
Dominika,
If you’re going to only discuss the leaks, please go to the forums 😉
There will be politics involved in this “catfight.” In fact, it will mostly concern two different political perspectives. There will be no battles in this storyline, but we got one LAST season, and the previous two as well! And honestly, if a battle-free storyline bums you out… How did you survive season one? 😛
I’ve never understood why so many people were fixated on Sansa having a rape baby from a storyline with no book equivalent.
It will be interesting to see the siblings reunite — though in the case of Bran and his sisters it’s really more of a case of “reuniting”, since they’ve never spoken to each other in the show (though Bran and Arya had that non-verbal interaction in the pilot).
So excited about Jorah and Sam meeting; it was always a possibility given the limited places specializing in healing, and Sam can tell Jorah more about his father’s death than Tyrion ever could (including why he was north of the Wall, the circumstances of the mutiny, and Jon avenging his death).
Arya and Sansa will also be interesting – can’t wait to see the dynamics between them. Arya could never have survived in the world Sansa had to inhabit, and Sansa would never have survived what Arya has been through; here’s hoping that both of them will eventually realize that they are stronger as a team than they are as individuals. It will be interesting to see if Meera stays with Bran or heads south to Greywater; she has been more of a sister to him for the last few years than Arya and Sansa, and it would be intriguing to see how she might fit into that family dynamic.
Wight attack is interesting – I am trying to remember if three weeks is more or less than they spent shooting Hardhome?
Priscila,
Or you know it just leaked like every other season before it.HBO is not exactly known for its security lol only this year it was a lot earlier.I don’t see the need for conspiracy theories.Not to mention that would be dumb cause you are giving away the plot of the season with just a few details wrong.You are only harming yourself that way.
So excited to see the reunion of the Starks!!!!! Yay!!! Hopefully Littlefinger gets his just desserts ?
I too hope that the name was incorrect lol!! And I couldn’t be happier that Sansa is not pregnant thank the gods for that!!
i only ask myself if the tension between sansa and arya will be just a stupid plotdevice or if it will have a real background, bc after all the shit both have been through i cant really see them argue about their past sibling diffrences…
Been waiting so long for an arya/sansa reunion, sucks that they would still not have matured after all this time..but then again am sure WF would be kind of boring if D&D kept it all sunshine and roses especially now that jon is in the south. I hope bran bats those two heads together and make them realise they are sisters and need to work together now after all what the family has been through. Not a surprise if sansa doesnt also get along with bran.
I wonder if it’ll be Bran or Sandor who clues in the Stark sisters about Baelish’s role in their father’s death – and which of the girls will kill him. They might end up fighting over who gets to use Needle!
That green screen is also ma-HOOsive so I’m not that surprised there’ll be a huge scene with wights. This season looks to be amazing even if LEAK INFO:
?
Why? They had a close relationship (Bran was the sibling everybody loved).
AzraelGFG,
The conflict will be about political differences. It’s sad that the minute I mentioned a “conflict” between the sisters some people jumped to “catfight.” That is not what I wanted to imply at all.
EDIT: I decided to clarify it in the report. Not everyone will read my comments.
redvidel,
We just did.
Oh thank the Lord or Light and the Seven and the Old Gods, I couldn’t handle a Sansa pregnancy right now ! Poor girl deserves a break .. I’m excited to see Arya’s behaviour around her family and her beef with Sansa sounds exciting, haha.
I heard Kit was in London today. Any hints on Emilia’s whereabouts ? I’m so excited to see them film again, hopefully together *fingers crossed* and for the scene at Wolf Hill I can hardly contain it ..
Thank you so much for the post, Luka !
Thats what i asked myself too. i dont see why sansa shouldnt get along with any of her siblings at all.
Looking forward to that scene with wights!! I expect another Hardhome like set piece. 🙂
There has to be some tension between Arya and Sansa. I hope Bran doesn´t get hurt in anyway because his sisters disagreements. Littlefinger, you should not get involved.
I expected Jorah to go somewhere else, I guess they skipted most part of his travels.
Season 7 is going to be amazing! 😀
Leaks
And the Winterfell plot involves two teen girls fighting with each other. That is awful.
Luka Nieto,
yeah i wasnt thinking about a catfight at all, but i seems odd to me that arya is suddenly so interested in politcal matters.
What political differences could they have?
Also…YES for White Walker news!
Flayed Potatoes,
Oh yes, I too am very grateful Jon will not be stuck in that hellhole.
Anyway all this stuff promises to be amazing.I would love Sam and Jorah together.Who knows maybe when Jorah goes back to Dany he already knows some stuff about Jon.The beyond the wall stuff looks epic.I like the premise very much.A diverse group of characters and when you unite action scenes that only GoT can do and the sights of Iceland I’m sure it will be quite something.And even the Winterfell stuff I might enjoy cause Jon is not there even though I’m sure his presence will be felt.Arya and Sansa do have history of conflict and I can clearly see where it might come from even though they are different people now.Sophie Isaac and Maisie must be having a blast filming together.
AzraelGFG,
Jack Bauer 24,
Arya has always had a more rigid Northern moral code. Sansa’s been trained by the capital court and by Littlefinger. Isn’t the difference obvious?
Kit said it took 25 days to shoot that Hardhome sequence.
Ah dear Sam, helping my bear. ❤
Conflict between Arya and Sansa? Pfft, please. That’s never been a thing….oh wait. [LEAK SPEAK]
It’ll be interesting to see the interaction between Bran and his sisters, as they didn’t have a focus on their relationships like Jon and Robb or Jon and Arya had.
BunBunStark,
Also will be interesting to see if Bran reveals Jon’s true heritage to his sisters and how they take it.
Sean C.,
I dont know i just feel like ever since.sansa helped jon in his dying hour, she has sort of acquired a new kind of controlling attitude that i believe will come in handy next sn. Which btw might affect some of her relationships with her siblings , sweet sweet bran included.
And they both have the same enemies, comes down to bringing them down through subversion or Stark justice.
Like to see some of Sansa’s Vale story here ( LF’s money, buying food supplies spies and people willing to back stab LF) but we don’t have time for any of that but I’m hoping.
Kinda wish Jorah would go back to Qarth to speak with Quaithe since she was doing the ‘protection’ spell on that guy going to Valryia. Would give a reason on why they included Quaithe in the first place and tie up Jorah’s journey in Essos. Ah well. Ill take any conversation that involves the Old Bear, so Im sure itll be fine.
Luka Nieto,
as long as Arya doesnt kill Sansa, bc of some bullshit D&D come up with, i dont care.
Sansa and Arya conflict is about Jon and LF influence. One is trying to take power, the other is loyal to Jon.
Jorah and Sam meeting is logical.
300 wights extras wow that’s a lot and 3 weeks of filming and then what is Iceland shooting? Isn’t it cancelled?
Thank you 🙂
illinidiva,
I don’t even know why I am responding to this but here you go lol
LEAKS
I’m sure season 7 will have many surprises. We have the major set pieces, meetings and reunions, but there are tons of details and developments in between that we don’t know about.
It’s nice to have the role of Wolf Hill Quarry confirmed. Three weeks sounds about right. That’s slightly less than Hardhome took, and they’re likely going to be filming parts of this set piece in Iceland as well. If they use tiling on those 300 wights to multiple them, we’re in for one hell of a sequence.
The Winterfell news was expected, but it’s nice having the Stark kids reunion confirmed as well. In many ways, I’m thrilled for the set leaks, because I don’t know if I could have lasted an entire filming off season believing that Jon was going to be the one in Arya’s position.
Geralt of Rivia,
I’m sure it’s not cancelled but they can’t film an action scene that big in Iceland.It’s logistically impossible.I suspect they will use the week in Iceland for establishing shots travel scenes and things like that whereas the bulk of the action will be in N.I.
Ah, but remember — Sansa has her own giant needle, thanks to the costume designer!
LOL arya was the mean naughty kid, show-wise she seemed to particularly like teasing sansa and bran. Can’t wait to see how the show plays out this trio relationship now. How about their conversations about the experiences.they each have been through. Things could get awkward real fast. How will the girls react to bran’s magic especially sansa or arya’s magic well. But i guess all this.will be.done behind the scenes as they did with sansa/jon last season. Sigh Bummer
I’m excited for jorah and Sam scenes! Remember when certain fans were complaining about Jon leaving the north? Lmao
Clearly certain storylines are slowing down while others are just getting started.
Makes sense since Sansa and Jon weren’t close back then and if she’s questioning Jon’s decisions as King, Arya might feel like Sansa is trying to usurp Jon while he’s away. And we know how close Jon and Arya are.
I always thought that Sansa’s pregnancy was an stupid “theory”
Irina Stark,
Leaks spoilers.
Luka Nieto,
But neither Sansa nor Arya really follow a “Northern moral code”, do they? They’ve both become very vengeful people and aren’t above resorting to trickery and deception to beat their enemies, and that’s not really the “honourable” Stark way. I’d even argue that Sansa is closer to her Northern heritage at this point as the last few seasons have shown her appreciating her Northern roots more and more, culminating in her decision, not Jon’s, to take back Winterfell.
Priscila,
Where did you hear that different versions of the scripts were given out? Is that a confirmed fact?
I’m still hoping for more interesting leaks concerning the WF storyline…if the best we have is a little “conflict” between sisters with Littlefinger taking advantage of it (yawn), I doubt they’ll get more than 15-20 screen time in the whole season…
I actually don’t mind Arya getting more politically involved. Maybe it will give pause to those who think she is only a killer.
However, if Arya is going to show loyalty to Jon, then it will only work if Jon actually remembers who she is this season.
Can you tell us that Luka, Sue. Is Jon actually going to remember that Arya exists this season?
AzraelGFG,
Arya never is going to kill Sansa they are finally “the lone wolf died and the pack survived” Neds words, -‘d he always said to Arya “Sansa is your sister” …. they need to be united…. to be honest I don’t like this rivalry to begin with… but they need Drama in the Northen history line?. I’m Glad to see the children’s of Winterfell reunited
is the Iceland shoot still on?
OK, let me get this straight. The HUGE Wight hunt looks to be earlier than Episode 7. The HUGE Ambush is earlier than Episode 7. So will there be something even bigger, more massive, more spectacular, more shocking, in Episode 7? 😀
Good to hear of some disagreements between Sansa and Arya. No two people could be more different, especially after all this time apart.
I am happy that Jorah and Sam will meet, but I am a bit disappointed that Jorah will find his cure at Oldtown. I had always harbored a teeny tiny hope that he would find his cure from Quaithe.
AryaArya,
The reunion the most I want is Jon and Arya…. 🙂
I don’t know why people are surprised with the news of conflict between Sansa and Arya. D&D teased a conflict between Sansa and Jon, and Sophie has said many times Sansa thinks she’s better fit to rule the north. The only difference is that apparently Arya is taking Jon’s place in this storyline and honestly i’m glad she is. Jon would be clueless and completely oblivious to any of Littlefinger’s schemes and attempts to manipulate Sansa. Arya? not so much.
I know a lot of people are complaining about Arya’s arc next season (leaks), but I can’t think of a better place for her to be than in Winterfell, hopefully finally avenging her family. There’s only 2 people on her list, and we all know those people aren’t hers to kill.
Is it possible for Arya to be involved in the battle scene beyond the wall? I’d love for her to show off some of her skills.
Geralt of Rivia,
I would imagine that any Iceland filming they do would be mostly brief scene-setting shots.
Abbie,
That would so awesome!!!
Anything which Involves Night King +Jon Snow + Wights+ Daenerys and her dragons which is directed by emmy nominee Alan Taylor .Is obviously The BIG BATTLE OF THE SEASON ..and Big battles have focus on it as whole episode . .tho #justsaying
Jenny,
Leaks spoilers
illinidiva,
It’s not ‘some chick’ .. it’s Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the first of her name, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons. (+ Queen of Essos, Lady of Dragonstone and Dragon’s Bay, Breaker of men’s hearts and soon-to-be
Bow down !
illinidiva,
Why the overreaction to things and the over simplification of a storyline that you have yet to witness with your own eyes? Jon goes South to either retrieve obsidian glass and/or recruit allies for the war to come against those who will threaten humanity as a whole and your reaction is what? Oh, Jon doesn’t love his siblings anymore and he only cares to bang the blond chick. Geez. What an a**hole that Jon is. NOT.
Then, knowing the Arya and Sansa dynamic that has always existed in the show and books basically based on the fact that they are two opposites, you complain about future strife between them? You know what would have been ridiculous? If whatever differences they had would be magically erased and never addressed again. Why? Because that would mean that Arya and Sansa were so changed by their experiences that there were no longer the Arya and Sansa that they once knew. And we know for a fact that this isn’t so, Arya tried to become No One and guess what? In the end she realized she was Arya Stark from Winterfell. And Sansa may have lost her “innocence” if not her naivete but she’s still the entitled lady that we met in the beginning. She showed us that when she basically told Jon that the Wildlings were his to command, irregardless of how the Wildlings felt about that. Arya is the Old North, Sansa may feel that that attitude is what killed his father, brother and mother. Sansa may feel that Jon isn’t really fit to lead them, at least not in the political arena, Arya, well my guess is that Arya would lay Needle at Jon’s feet without a second guess. Of course there will be conflict between those two, they suffered and became more cynical. In the end though, they both love and want the same thing, their family and legacy. They’ll come to realize that before things get too out of hand.
redvidel,
You’re coming off as a bit entitled and bratty.
jdtargstark,
[LEAK SPOILERS]
The reddit leak is fake. More and more spoilers from wotw confirm the reddit leak only mean one thing: that the reddit leak was leaked by some HBO guy just to misdirect people. Your sources confirmation are only there to collaborate the lies.
Why they did this? Maybe to retaliate over the season 6 leaks by some frikidoctor or true detective. Maybe just to retaliate the photo leaks.
Now I don’t have evidence. I don’t have source. I don’t know where you get the confirmation. Your sources might be reliable in the past, or reliable to you. But they could be misled as well.
The “wight hunting” was confirmed by your source. But the suspicious thing is, for the whole dragonpit scene, there is no leak, no reddit leak, no confirmation mentioning there is a dragon there. No dragon. Only wight. Which makes you suspect why no dragon in dragonpit but parley with a wight? Of all the places in Westeros why they choose to parley inside the dragonpit? Parley inside King’s Landing? You gotta be kidding me right? Jon and Dany trust Cersei enough to do the parley there? Doesn’t make sense. You might as well call it “wightpit” since there is no dragon.
I don’t speculate/guess based on the spoiler. So I don’t want to talk about my guess. Because speculate based on leaked info or picture is unfair. You are not supposed to know it in the first place. But I have a pretty good guess what actually happens inside the dragonpit. The whole wight thing is fake. What happen inside dragonpit could be an endgame stuff for season 7, not some lame wight parley.
Again, this 300 wights have nothing to do with wight hunting. The reddit leak mentioned how the white walkers attack the wall. But do you really think HBO will let you see the wall attack in the final episode of the season? The normal thing to do for the final episode is to let the impending attack becomes the cliffhanger for season 8 opener. Might as well let you wait and guess for another whole year about how the white walkers attack the wall instead of showing it to you in season 7, don’t you think?
Like Tyrion said, do not trust anyone.
Mr. Derp,
Which is why he should be ignored 😉
Geralt of Rivia,
Yes but what about the scenes at
Certainly they’d be together even just for a few short scenes.
jdtargstark,
It was the hype of actors, producers about their conflict. I’m glad Arya is part of it, their dynamic wih Sansa should be good and Arya can se through his bullshit as you said. Also, Jon would be oblivious to politics and schemes. I still think he wouldn’t make a good King in the regard. Too naive for it and King should be skilled in politics. Jon in the books has a bit ot talent at least for Northern poltics.
redvidel,
Westeros will be SHOOK, haha !
Geralt of Rivia,
Yessssss !! Omg, he deserves this. They both do ! I’m so excited ! Aye aye captain, the mast tackle is secured, the foreyard is braced, full speed ahead ! Ahoy !
Jenny,
Leaks
Second, Littlefinger is one of the coolest villains of all time and he gets murdered because of the Winterfell burnbook. The guy manipulated his mistress to kill her husband to start a war to his benefit and he gets murdered because of sibling rivalry between two teen girls.
Third, Jon’s character is completely ruined if the leaks are true. His plot to save the world reveals him to be a moron and he apparently cares more about flirting with some chick he barely knows than his siblings.
I wonder if the conflict between Arya and Sansa will be all about Littlefinger and not so much the politics of running Winterfell. Arya saw LF at Harrenhal; once she finds out about Sansas marriage orchestrated by LF (though Sansa “agreed”), she will be out for blood. I just don’t want it to become Sansa vs. Arya again. That seemed to be such a theme in the early seasons, like you couldn’t be a fan of both. Both characters have had a horrid, painful journey. Tension between them is understandable, even with the joy of finding each other. They aren’t the same people anymore. Still a bit foolish but both wiser and having skills that they could team up and use.
While Sansa won’t be bearing any Bolton crotch fruit (THANK GOD!), I have always thought her end would be carrying on the Stark name and dying in childbirth (bittersweet, like GRRM said). Though, this is more of a book thought than show because I can’t see Sansa now ever wanting anything to do with any man, even for politics sake.
Irina Stark,
Leaks spoilers.
Speaking of Viserion. Fire dragons are magical creatures, not sure how can you resurrect this beast. It’s not like reanimating people or other animals. It sounds cool but how it work is the question.
I know you ship them but that fu*ker of Jon Snow was not really necessary. It comes of as a bit childish.
Geralt of Rivia,
LEAKS
Vally,
Leaks
illinidiva,
Sure Jan
This is all shit we already knew tho. We figured Jorah was going to Oldtown long before the leak, and the arya Sansa stuff is just recycled from the leak, and the pics that came out before the leak.
Geralt of Rivia,
[Leaks spoilers]
Geralt of Rivia,
I know I know, I ship it so much I think I’m turning Davy Jones especially after going off of the Winds of Winter episode and I can’t contain my level of excitement.
Regarding Viserion, I am so damn curious to see how that plays out, how long the process takes, will we actually see it happening or will the wights just drag it’s body away and then we just see him as NK’s mount in the finale burning the wall ?
I expect an incredible score for that scene as well !
Ah, what? What?! She fed a man his own children.
Sterling,
Huh? Rigid moral code. Not good moral code. Not remotely the same thing.
So, if Bran makes it home I guess he’s the new Lord of Winterfell, King of the North then right?
Jenny,
No idea what that is supposed to mean.
Sean C.,
Leaks
Luka Nieto,
As you should. A legitimate question I would pose, however, if it is wise to continuously
Any news on the involvement of beric and Thoros in the scene described in this post? #morespoilerspleaselol
Jenny,
Leaks spoilers.
No, we just want it to exchange it for actually something and done it i in a meaningful time. Whic neither of them is really solid. It happened after the fight, on the way to KL. Not dialogue is not what Iam discussing. It seems it’s just to consol Dany which fans are angry about. But he wouldn’t want to be IT because to him that’s a foreigners land. That wouldn’be any conflict for him or between them. He always wanted the North and Lord of Winterfell status.
The battle beyond the Wall will presumably involve wights. How will any of Arya’s “skills” be of any use there? Arya’s skills have been about causing the death of the living, not of the dead! 😀 Her journey has been to seek revenge against all of the Stark enemies. But she didn’t figure that the enemy of all the living, including the Starks, is the dead in the North.
Striker163,
For me, there’s a big difference between some guy on reddit claiming something, and me personally hearing it from someone connected to the show. Also, you didn’t read the post, clearly because we’re confirming the production at Wolf Hill Quarry over the next few weeks. Troll harder, dude.
Jenny,
Leaks
Mr. Derp,
That user has been banned because they were posting under multiple screennames to be an ass, so yes, they’re a troll, and should be ignored.
So we know Jon and Davos leave Winterfell fairly early in the season with the assumption that Sansa is then in charge. We also believe that Brienne probably comes and goes a couple of times. The problem I see with that is that I don’t think Sansa knows what she’s doing on her own. That was on display for the entire season six. She acts on what she thinks and feels but she doesn’t truly understand how things are, how they work or the proper method to handle them. Her only ‘achievement’ is to have wrongly kept the secret of Littlefinger and the Vale army, then crawling back to him for help when there was no other option. So who is going to be at Winterfell to advise her after Jon leaves? Littlefinger and who else, bannermen that she won’t give the satisfaction of telling her what to do? She says she doesn’t trust Littlefinger but if he’s in her ear she may end up swayed on decisions. If when Arya shows up she sees Sansa making some stupid decisions I’d expect there to be disagreements and tension.
I’m happy the reunion will be happy for awhile before the sisters clash over ruling.
Hopefully the clash isn’t that bad.
Sean C.,
Leaks spoilers.
restoresoff,
Oh yes. When women struggle over political policy, it’s a silly “catfight”. Is that the same way you would characterize Ned and Roberts differences in season 1? Please.
Trisha,
Me too.. Arya and Jon reunion whenever it happens it will be he most precious reunion of all. I am going to cry rivers
Greywind,
Jon was acclaimed as King in the North by the nobles with no regard for legitimacy, so there’s no particular reason Bran would get that title on his return. He should in theory be Lord of Winterfell, though we’ll see whether the show actually does that.
Geralt of Rivia,
LEAKS
Sean C.,
They are different and separate titles, are they not? King in the North is not automatically Lord of Winterfell and vice versa. Though of course the question is, if the King in the North does not concurrently hold the title of Lord of Winterfell, where does he rule from? Granted they are at war so things like that will not matter that much now but would cause major problems in times of relative peace.
Three weeks ??? well damn and some fans thought Kit is not going to do much this season.LMAO
this is going to be epic on screen.Can’t wait to see Bran & Arya & Sansa together.
Kit was seen in London today,still no Emilia in Spain.
Oh good, I was wondering when the latest wave of leak denialism coupled with reading comprehension failure would hit. This week’s feature: “Jon Snow – does he even like his siblings?” You know, for a Gary Stu with allegedly no moral complexity, he sure does commit a lot of unforgivable offenses on this show.
Come on, you all know the truth, you just don’t want to admit it. Jon switched to Team White Walker several seasons ago, and this is all an act so that he can defect at the last minute and let the Night King finish the rest of the realm off.
Clob,
Arya coming home to save the North from her dumb sister? Sorry, but that reads as extremely biased towards Sansa. She is beyond trusting LF. Why can’t Arya want to make some stupid decisions? I cannot really see the writers developping one sister to the detriment of the other.
elybe,
I love you
Another day, another barrage of Jon hate. Don’t you all get tired of this?
cloudless_rain,
It’s called Canary Trap, it’s a common behavior in shows or movies this big to identify who is leaking the scripts. They are not different versions of the script, only some changes in names, or some specific words. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_trap
I didn’t write anything about “Arya coming home to save the North.” I’m assuming that Arya won’t be sitting in a position to be making any political decisions when she’s just returned. Sansa will be. So I simply suggested that Sansa’s choices could cause some disagreements between the two… and saying that Sansa doesn’t really know what she’s doing in a position of leadership is not a stretch or untrue. She hasn’t shown any strong ability to make wise, important decisions or plans on her own. As I did write, Sansa says she doesn’t trust LF, but as far as we know he’s still there isn’t he. He has his rescue with the Vale army to hold over her as well. So even if she doesn’t fully trust him it appears he’s remain near her and her choices could be tainted by his talk.
Glad to hear the speculation that Sansa is pregnant has finally been been nipped in the bud 🙂
I just couldn’t believe the sheer amount of crap that got posted before S6 aired when photos appeared of Sansa in the snow wearing a heavy dress/outfit with many saying she looked to be carrying – simply due to folds or bumps in the material !!!
The same could be said in the scene at Castle Black with Tormund staring across the table at Brienne during a meal. Many thought it was the start of a big romance between the pair. Even BCog just couldn’t believe the amount of speculation that caused for what was basically a gratuitous shot. I just find it incredible some of the outlandish stuff and shite that gets posted on WotW – LMAO 😀
There’s no problem in speculating on what may happen due to leaked photos or clips. However, this business with scripts being leaked is bad news! If this is true and minor changes are being made between scripts, it would seem the show runners, B&W etal, must know there is an insider leaking information? If so, one would think the leaks could point to whoever is doing this?
I can’t believe a cast member would do this, but I wonder how many scripts are given to crew members, extras, etc during filming and production – Quite a few possibility?
Flayed Potatoes,
Can’t be helped. The spoilers are really unflattering.
Hopefully this wight expedition makes sense in the show. Because:
Also I expect to see a scene of Arya playing the lying game with Littlefinger. Did you betray my father, lord Petyr? No. Liar. An she slaps him. Then Sansa sentences him to die or something. Maybe Bran sends Arya or Sansa dreams that help this resolution of their conflict develop.
elybe,
And people say Jon isn’t morally grey 😛
#TeamWW
marols,
Or maybe you’re all determined to nitpick and criticize everything he does without getting the full context.
I can’t imagine crew members and extras would’ve been given scripts.
Kay,
What do we say to the God of Death? Not today.
I don’t get what’s wrong with a bit of conflict between Sansa and Arya. It’s believable and true to their characters.
Clob,
You explicitely wrote “stupid decisions” and that Arya would disagree with those. That does imply that Arya would be capable to identify those decisions as stupid, although she is no more experienced in politics or ruling than her sister.
I think that such a scenario would only benefit Arya as a character. IMO we are beyond Sansa making stupid decisions because of LF’s influence. Been there, done it. We need another story this season.
I’m happy Arya and Bran will reunite. Hopefully there won’t be any form of tension between them and they can work together as a team. They need to remind the North that he is their rightful king and she can become his Hand.
Kay,
Maybe Arya will take a face of a wight, sneak up to the Night King from behind, and stab him in the back while Jon will be fighting him from the front mirroring the how Howland Reed saved Ned Stark? That could be a plot for S8.
Leak speculation
StarkBowl is really happening after all and it’s a mess.
I was hoping it wouldn’t happen considering the last thing Sansa said about LF was: “Only a fool would trust Littlefinger”, well, I guess she’s a fool.
Sansa and Arya will probably fight because Sansa will try to get support to be Queen and Arya will stay loyal to Jon.
And people really want Jon to be around? No, thanks. Let him meet another main characters that will help in the big fight, he can meet his siblings next season since we know already that he will go back to Winterfell in the season finale.
Same! I’m sad the reunion won’t happen this seaso, from the sounds of the spoilers so far, but they’re probably saving the best for last. Arya and Jon love each other most of all the Starks so I’m sure that will be the most emotional of all the reunions.
Stacy,
He’s the rightful Lord of Winterfell, Sansa will give her title to him since she is the current Lady of Winterfell. In the show, Lord of Winterfell and KiTN are two different titles.
Why is everyone asuming that Arya and Sansa will fight because Sansa wants to be queen, i think it’s pretty clear that she is beyond that (finally)
As the resport sais, they will argue because they are having different points of view, Arya will follow a rigeous Northern moral code and Sansa will be up to scheeming and lying, That’s all, it doesn’t say they’ll kill each other or something in those terms.
illinidiva,
Probably Jon leaves before Arya and Bran get back to Winterfell is my guess. Otherwise he would definitely be in on that reunion. It’s not exactly as if he knows where they’re at to know they’d be there soon and wait for them before leaving.
Stacy,
The best for last… ?
I think some might be basing their speculation on some of Sophie’s comments in interviews at the end of last season. She said things that probably don’t fit with this season since she didn’t have the scripts then and was just reacting. But if Sophie had been right, Arya would have certainly sided with Jon against Sansa and Petyr Peter and it wouldn’t have ended well for the creepy shop. So it’s good that she seems to have been wrong.
Arya’s skills and training depended on her fitting into her environment. In the books she becomes a mouse at Harrenhal in order to survive. In the show she survives rights next to Tywin Lannister. If can survive that I am sure she could have adapted herself for King Landing.
I could see Arya and Sansa having disagreements on some subjects. Like for example the small folk or the peasants. Sansa is a Lady who hardly ever had any discussion or contact with the small folk while Arya has always befriended them, and she has been posing as being part of the small folk.
Anyone feel there’s some con at play here? Why would people involved with the show ‘confirm’ spoilers? And this level of detail? Isn’t that like shooting oneself in the foot? Last year we barely had anything on Jon and Sansa’s reunion or many other things (we were getting our spoilers from set photos and extras mainly during off-season). This year we got a flurry of early spoilers and they are getting verified like clockwork, one by one in perfect order. It’s so neatly done and weird.
illinidiva,
“Why exactly should Dany give up her claim to Jon?”
LEAKS
marols,
We got a ton of spoilers last year, and the year before. And the year before that. People seem to have amnesia about this. People leak, it’s human nature.
I agree that extras wouldn’t receive scripts, but there must be others in the production crew who do? We have seen in funny out-takes, sometimes the actors forget their lines and have to be prompted. The prompters (whoever they are) must have scripts.
TBH, I’ve no idea who gets full scripts and certainly for an entire season. I read in this group a while ago that some of the actors only get scripts for their particular scenes or the episodes they appear in. One would think the security on a TV blockbuster like GoT would be as tight as a drum, but from what I see regarding S7, that’s far from being so!
Priscila,
I have been following this site for mild spoilers since last year. By mild I mean TOJ footage, BOTB clues from pictures., Emilia Clark actually seen kneeling in an outdoor scene. I was able to see all the beautiful set pieces and speculate. I don’t remember actual plot s from inside Winterfell or indoors in general ever being confirmed on this site until recently. This season , credible spoilers such as the different political views of Sansa and Arya or the wight in the dragon pit are being made available to us. I am not disputing this site as I know it is credible but I was wondering if there were examples of this type of more “relationship type “spoilers in the past seasons. If we can’t see it through visuals I guess I am just thrown off since they are top secret when it comes to indoor filming. Again I am sure these are credible but I don’t remember it in the past.
Inga,
Leaks spoilers.
Inga,
Dany *
….
Actual Kingship involves very little poltics, that is why it is easy to have a Hand of the King or an advisor for the the King who is more politically inclined.
Eighty percent of Kingship is about holding court and listening to petitions. That is what day to day running of the kingdom is about. The most important part about leadership is that the the person should inspire people. We can easily see this with Dany for example, she hasn’t really shown that much political skill, but people really want to follow her, and she has Tyrion by her side to think of the politics.
Negotiating is also a part of poltics and Jon has had some success in that arena. In truth Jon actually showed more insight and understand into what the Northern Lords might be thinking before the battle of the bastards, than Sasa did. That being said it is good or better, that Arya will be dealing with Littlefinger.
She has received the perfect training to deal with someone like Littlefinger. She can lie to him and she can detect lies, and she can spy on Littlefinger while using a different face. She really seems perfectly poised to take him down.
Inga,
Why can’t we have no kneeling and Jon and Dany work put some sort of political arrangement where they are equals? Jon can rule the North and Dany can have the rest. This is not rocket science.
1. Kudos for knowing that conjectures are not theories!
2. I completely agree. People insist on inserting “jetpacks” into the timeline for reasons I cannot fathom: when you show the characters traveling such large distances by horse or by foot, then you are showing them take long periods of time. There is no “but it didn’t seem long to me”: after all, they cannot wait months between scenes. And given all of the traveling shown and implied, Sansa would at least have been heavily, heavily gravid by the Battle of the Bastards, which must have happened many months after she departed Winterfell.
For the sake of my sanity I won’t read the comments.
I think the plot is great and I’m very excited to see it all properly on screen 🙂
Right, we’re finished dwelling on minor inconsistencies and inferring nonexistent ones, then. Now the leaks are fake because they have too much evidence supporting them. Good to have that cleared up.
Jenny,
As much as Jon secretly loves the undead? That one’s hard to top.
Flayed Potatoes,
Every time I think I’m being overly satirical, I read a bit further and realize I probably wasn’t being over-the-top enough.
Inga,
Spoilers happen every year, but we’ve never has a script’s content leaked, let alone all 7 of them, all at once and so early. And now over the course of a mere couple or so weeks we’ve gotten all those validations lining up with the big plotlines included in the leak. Right.
And what about the source?
Sue the Fury,
Hello. I was trying to piece together season 6 last year and I followed this site religiously for the spoilers. I remember what I read, I was following this site for spoilers more last year than i do now. That being said, I also don’t remember this type of leaking from last year. What i mean by that is any leaking that doesnt involve pictures videos and so on.It is interesting that another poster also noticed this.
Alvaricomg,
Yes, I don’t see that either.
If Sansa wants power, she will get it pretty fast as Jon leaves, and then she will get fed with it even faster. Power is not fun: it doesn’t give love or recognition, though people always hope to get that when they are climbing up. The only thing that power gives it’s criticism and criticism and criticism, the show made it pretty clear (see Thorn’s exchange with Jon in WOTW and many other scenes). So, Sansa will soon feel the burden of responsibility, and as she is not someone like Tyrion who simply enjoys when he manages to make things work, she will be frustrated and hurt by criticism and, if she lives, she will eventually decide that she has had enough of that.
IMO Arya will play the role of a critic. Sansa is not a master-mind politician and Littlefinger might find ways to manipulate her even against her will, though Sansa will be trying to manipulate him too. IMO, she will be trying to be extremely cautious about her decisions: she is a slow learner, but last season she learned that making rushed decisions based on emotions and sense of honor was not the best thing to do. Meanwhile, Arya has become a lonely wolf concentrated on vengeance and honor (though her sense of honor might be quite flexible, when it comes to her own interests). I highly doubt that she ever thought that, for instance, killing Walder Frey would have major political consequences and ramifications: she killed him and his sons simply because they wronged her family, not because she wanted the Riverlands to go back to Tullies, etc. In other words, Sansa may be a bad politician, but Arya is not a politician at all. She is fixed on her list, she will want her family to go on Cersei at full tilt (not only Sansa, but also Jon IMO), on the other hand Sansa will be hesitant and even unwilling, because “Winter is here” and she have entrusted command to Jon. Of course, she may get doubts and frustrations about all the pro and contra, and Littlefinger may be playing on that. However, if the leaks got it right, he will be trying to play turn Arya against Sansa rather than visa versa, and hopefully it will lead to his demise, because there will be at least one thing the Stark girls will agree on: that Littlefinger is a liar (and Bran will reveal all the details, because IMO there are things we don’t know yet).
So, to sum up, I don’t think that Sansa will be “bad” and Arya will be “good” (loyal to Jon); I rather expect their disagreements to be interesting and controversial and I wouldn’t be surprised, if it is Arya who does something foolish or at least foolish from the perspective of that particular moment.
elybe,
Well no clearly nothing can surpass Jon’s undying love for the night king star crossed lovers those ones but close enough lol.
illinidiva,
Medieval ruling was a family business, so, I believe that after doing some running after each other (which is unavoidable) Jon and Dany will end up as equals or at least in the right balance just like all of the most successful medieval and post-medieval royal couples did. And I don’t see any need to bring in modern feminism into the world where it has no place: you should rather read some medieval literature, if you are looking for equal relationship models.
cloudless_rain,
I heard it on take the black podcast.
Priscila,
That’s speculation, not fact. And you should take everything you see and read from there with a pretty large grain of salt.
Asoiaf fan,
I have nothing against mild spoilers as you said, but this reddit leak is nothing like we have seen before.
Now, I am not saying anything like ” the season is over” .,we have the bullet points, but it is a very well producef, directef, acted TV series, and I look forward to see how they oull it out. It could be very good indeed..
elybe,
It’s fucking mind boggling. I’m LMAO at this notion taking hold (on reddit and now making its way here) that WOTW slowly confirming the leaks is all a part of some big conspiracy. *eyeroll*
Sue the Fury,
I never said it was confirmed, i said ” apparently” this is what happenned. No idea why some ready it as though I was confirming it.
I am the Jon Snow of spoilers: i know nothing!
BunBunStark,
Yes, and I suppose it will be part of some big misdirection scheme when hundreds of extra show up at Wolf Hill in costume. Ah, reddit.
Wimsey,
The irony here is that conjecture is actually a synonym of theory. A scientific theory is far different than the way the term theory is being used in this sense, and in this sense theory and conjecture are essentially the same exact thing.
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/theory
Sansa knows exactly what LF is. At this stage she’ll never trust him again- that was pretty darn clear throughout season 6 and most certainly in the finale.
Sure, it may appear that she is being manipulated by the douchebag next season, and it’ll no doubt create some tension on screen (and OMG how this place will blow up with the same ole Sana haters), but I really don’t think she will be at all and under his spell and this’ll all be part of her game. A game that she’s been learning for years-and from the best teachers.
marols,
I agree, partly because I hope so bad that these leaks are fake, but also because at this time last year all supposed leaks were way off. It wasn’t until the major Reddit leak in March that actually spoilers came out and that was for an April season premiere.
John C
are you one of those delusional fans from reddit who still don’t believe all those spoilers even tough we got even pictures as prove from sets ? like how can you still be so delusional just because YOU don’t like the storyline.
Inga,
Are you saying Dany, the woman who taught Khal Drogo the missionary, will be dickmatized ?
BunBunStark,
The truth is out there.
Now the leaks are fake because they have too much evidence supporting them. Good to have that cleared up.
lmao right ? why are some people so messy ? Before it was fake because they didn’t like the storyline now it’s fake because there is too much evidence.I’m sorry but all this whining is pathetic !
Quite off-topic, but I just read the WotW tweet about Emilia Clarke joining the Han Solo movie! My head is reeling – my two fandoms colliding!!! 😀 GoT and my first and most enduring love, Star Wars! Yay!!
All the new SW movies seem to cast British female leads! Daisy Ridley, Felicity Jones, and now Emilia Clarke!
han
You really think this site and their sources are not trustworthy and reliable ? Lord the delusion is strong with you.BIG time.
Again,just because you don’t like the storyline,that doesn’t mean is FAKE.
No matter how much prove and pictures you still have fans screaming their delusion.
Kay
Very happy for Emilia.GOT and now Star Wars fandom ? HUGE !
Very happy for Emilia! Wish her the best
Jackie,
Last month it was “until WotW confirms the leaks I’m not believing them”. Now that we’ve gotten a butt-load of filming pictures to go along with WotW’s source confirming parts of leaks it’s “well, now there’s too much evidence so clearly shady stuff is afoot”. *bangs head on desk* I wish I knew why people like to make things so complicated. It’s a damn tv show, not matters of national security.
Inga,
Medieval ruling was a male business unless the woman came from a better family than the man. Dany doesn’t have the family to make her viable outside of the normal female role of baby incubator. Perhaps the dragons and large army make her viable but I am not sure why she would defer to Jon in that case. If she has the force, she should assert herself as the ruler. In the medieval world, deferring to someone because of love was dumb.
As for Jon, he has absolutely no support. Jon is King in the North based on a very flimsy claim that could easily be withdrawn in favor of Sansa or Bran. If he marries Dany, he brings nothing to the marriage, especially if he gives up his claim prior. Bran/ Sansa have right to Winterfell. Jon has no claim over the North especially if his Targ lineage come into play. He is in a subservient position. Dany has absolute rights as queen and could execute him. Of course you are saying… Blah, blah, love, but that strikes me as less likely than a female ruler. Medieval female rulers didn’t grant their lovers political power or influence and were bigger dictators than men for a reason because it was the only way that they would be accepted as rulers. Queen Elizabeth didn’t marry because she would effectively cede political control if she did.
I can’t believe there are people who read through the leaks and didnt notice the multitude of changes (when he was posting them mostly), contradictions and inaccuracies. They all jumped out at me. The leak is not cohesive in the slightest even though it has some truth in it. So anyway when is it going to be confirmed
Boudica,
what if their conflict is about Littlefinger?
” Arya always had a more rigid moral code, and though the Faceless Men tried to stifle it, instead they strengthened it”,
Varys to Tyrion : ” Jon Arryn and Ned Stark were good men. Honorable men. But they disdained the game and those who played.”
Arya will see Petyr for what he is , an enemy .She knows he served the Lannisters and after she finds out about Ramsay she will want him dead or at least gone.
Sansa is aware that although Petyr is not a friend and can not be trusted ,they need him because of the Vale(until she finds a way to win Robin’s support without Petyr or something like that). Maybe she wants to use him for their benefit and try to manipulate him.
Sansa wants to play the game ,Arya hates the game just like Ned (stark code).Littlefinger figures out what Sansa plans to do with him and uses Arya’s and Sansa’s “clash over the matter of ruling”(the southern way or the northern way?) to his own benefit.
( I don’t think it’s because of the Karstarks and the Umbers , Arya is the most vengeful of them all, she will agree with Sansa).
In Sansa’s mind their father died because he didn’t play the game. In Arya’s mind their father died because of the game and those who play it.
Inga,
I don’t think any of the Starks are considered slow or stupid except by LF.
GRRM, Tyrion, Cat and even Arya say that Sansa is intellegent and fast learning except for sums.
I think it’s the age stuff, the Starks are under the age of 16 in the books and under 19 in show ( except maybe Jon ) I think it’s going to be Sansa’s pragmatism Vs Arya’s Stark justice due to her seeing him with Twin where she made mistakes ( 3 names? ) and if the LEAKED STUFF IS CLOSE TO CORRECT (spoiler) Bran will be the one to nudge Sansa to make a decision on LF (/spoiler)
Sorry I was doing this on my tablet and hit wrong brackets.
Lol, the funny thing is that all of them spewing hate are Jon fans supposedly.
I’ve got a
badDolorous feeling about this, if you catch my drift.(Drift + snow = snow drift = Jon Snow drift?)
Ah, waves of relief. That was always gnawing at the back of my mind. Would be too much of a massive change. I wonder if they considered the idea but then axed it? (shrug) just glad its over.
No. I have an MA in medieval history. Women, even married women, wielded political power all the time in the real Middle Ages. No, they were not just baby incubators.
What are you basing your statements on, anyway? False stereotypes from innaccurate Hollywood movies?
Regarding leaks and this new confirmation stuff;
guys…none of that leak info seemed particularly revelatory, or stuff we couldn’t logically predict would happen. The fine details are everything, of course: think about it, *on paper* the Season 5 Dorne storyline probably sounded pretty good. So it’s best to only judge the final product. I imagine that parts which I think are good will turn out bad, and some things which sound bad will turn out to be good in context. So whatever.
The only ones I particularly took issue with were the Jaime stuff….but again, *in context* it might make more sense if it’s given a good explanation in the story. As for the repeated “wight hunt” reports…it sounds a little odd, but if something similar happens in the books and this isn’t just some elaborate invention by the TV writers, I don’t really care. OR, arguably, cutting out the Golden Company could have caused so much trouble they were kind of forced to condense it. But I don’t judge either way, I’m just wary of it.
I’m amazed that some people just read casual news reports and automatically think everything is a great idea and fanboy out over it – OMG, this is what Tyrion is doing this year!….specifically because I honestly thought Season 5 Dorne looked great in the trailers, and was just very poorly executed in the final version.
Seasons 5 and 6 taught us that just because the show does something doesn’t mean it’s necesssarily going to be great (Dorne and the North primary examples).
Some have accused that I don’t keep up with bleeding-edge leak info from reddit and such. Actually, it’s just because I consciously choose to go by the final aired version rather than base opinions on secondhand reports. Nothing can substitute for the final aired version (again…Dorne sounded good *on paper*).
First, thank you Luka and Sue for finally giving us North/Arya fans something fairly concrete about what is transpiring back in Belfast.
I have mixed feelings about Littlefinger stirring up trouble between the sisters. Some people describe this storyline as cheesy. It could be. Winterfell will be such a side-show compared to what’s being filmed in Spain that their internecine opposition MUST be both plausible and of sufficient importance to make an impact on the audience and the story. It must ring true. Littlefinger maneuvering in general and maneuvering Sansa in particular seems realistic. But manipulating Arya? She was born a walking BS detector, and her powers that were further honed by her training with the Faceless Men. Plus, she had seen Littlefinger unsurprised at Ned’s execution (though it probably did not register) and certainly knows that LF plotted with Tywin against Robb. So if SHE is duped by Slimey Baelish, it would be as uncharacteristic as her sauntering around Braavos while the Waif was after her (except it was key to setting her final trap and escaping the FM).
That said, Arya is not rigidly honourable; Jaqen complained “A girl lacks honour”. What she is is a fierce defender of truth and loyalty. She’s had mixed feelings about Sansa all along–mainly because of Sansa’s eagerness to slough off her Starkdom and become a Sourthron and Lannister, her lying (politics is lying), her betrayal of Ned and so forth, So, yes, they will naturally be at odds. I just hope the writing makes their contention clear, interesting, and raises the stakes very very high. And, if Arya does ‘execute’ LF, she needs to do it for herself and for her own reasons, Sansa be damned. And by God, if the show denies us a Jon-Arya reunion towards the end of Season 7, I shall be livid.
illinidiva,
Jon has no claim over the North especially if his Targ lineage come into play
He was raised in the North. He has Stark blood. He waged war taking back the family estate and the Northmen esteem him enough to bestow that “crown”, period. On top of his brother the previous king making Jon his heir. So, he kinda does have claim over the north, and hell all of Westeros if he gets notions in his head to fight and get back the family throne like Danearys. The North was part of the seven kingdoms at the time of his birth. So, there are two ways he has claims.
ygritte,
I think the true born Starks have more going for them. They have a claim to the North, they have family in the Vale, and they have family in the Riverlands. Shouldn’t these connections be an important factor in who eventually ends up on the throne?
elybe,
haha!!!
Rob,
In normal times yes. But these aren’t normal times. If the north were still under Iron throne rule and it was simply a matter of who is rightful Lord of Winterfell that’s a different story, of course the bastard would be last in line for that title. But now, they seceeded, and elected the member of Stark household that is most loyal and able to lead men in a time of war.
ygritte,
Why? Bran has the actual blood claim to Winterfell, not Jon. And I am not sure why you think the lady with the large dragons is going to or should have to give up her conquest because she has a secret nephew. The big dragons and large army supersede any weak paper claim Jon might have.
The Dragon Demands,
Because they came from important families and their husbands needed the alliance or because hubby died during war not because the Middle Ages were big on gender equality. Some female rulers like Elizabeth I didn’t marry because they were afraid their husbands would become defacto rulers.
Leaks
Congratulations to Emilia Clarke on joining “Star Wars” as one of the leads in the upcoming Han Solo standalone movie! Valar Morghulis!
ghost of winterfell,
Leaks
Not strictly book equivalent, but in the old 3-page description of the series that GRRM sent to his editor, he had planned to have Sansa marry Joffrey and have a baby with him, all of that before the resolution of the Stark/Lannister conflict.
Many things from these outlines are very different in the actual book and the series, but sometimes some of it remains. Like, for example, Jaime who killed all the people in the line of succession until he becomes king: this has become Cersei having her children killed, and becoming queen.
So, Sansa being pregnant by someone evil, although it was apparently not kept at all in the books, is still something that was there in the original outline, and could have resurfaced.
First of all, I’d like send my congrats to Emilia for her role in upcoming Han Solo movie. Classy lady who deserves it. It seems Emilia and Sophie are the ones from younger generation most profiting from Game of Thrones fame. Not sure what to say about new Han Solo guy because Harrison Ford is simply irreplaceable as anyone from the originals, but I’ll give a him a try. It might be good.
In the books Jon has a bit of knack for politics, tactics and planning. It was Jon who helped Stannis planned his campaign, where to go, who to talk to and how to approach it as the whole thing. In the show his battle plan as someone mentioned was poor or tactics. He tried to use Hannibal’s tactic and Ramsay wanted the same, turned on him and made him fall into the trap and virtually being a better tactician than Jon. This is what I disliked a lot about last season. Psycho Ramsay was proved to be more capable commander than Jon and he has more exprience from Battle of the Wall, Hardhome and experiences Beyond the Wall with others.
BookJon displayed also quite a bit of skill on day ot day routine of being LC of the Night’s Watch, which obviously can’t be done on the show due to time issues. They neede to move to more important aspect of his regime but she showed it.
Jon showed better understanding of Northern politics in the show, it is true. Plain example was dealing with Lord Glover, where Sansa pushed for his loyalty to House Stark. Truth be told, The North Remembers is very weak because in the books they do have a loyalty to Robb and House Stark. Glover later on switched to supporting Jon. It added to the scene and Jon forgiving him.
But still he lacks in the area of people scheming, politicking which is an important aspect – it’s not his forte. He didn’t saw mutiny coming in the show or the books and it was evidente. He would be oblivious to the danger of LF and Arya wouldn’t . This is where we agree on because he can see thought his lies and expose him. She was trained by FM after all and Bran on top of it as 3ER basically a demigod as a brother.
Listening to people. Jon has a bit of problem with it, as it was with Sansa. She wanred him, yeah she didn’t say much but she knew Ramsay. He ignored her and a good King would listen to anyone and espcially someone, who was living with him. He falled into the trap exactly as she told him. It was a human decision but shows that he has to learn a lot. Dany on the other hand listened to Tyrion after her Aerys 2.0 plan to kill everyone. Both of them are capable of inspiring people and winning them to their cause. Perhaps Jon is better at this.
I’m not sure I agree with you there. It was some time ago that I read them and they didn’t leave me with that impression at all.
How LF would get the letter isn’t known but I just don’t get how you can dismiss things out of hand simply because you don’t have the full story.
Placing traps in scripts is not just what screenwriters do but the whole speculation about it with relation to GOT came from the leaker himself
I’m EXTREMELY happy that the two Stark girl’s will be having a season to themselves. That their storylines will unite and they will come to a new understanding is what I’ve been predicting and expecting ever since I read the first book, before Season 1. The opposition between them two, and the fact that they are the only Starks to witness Ned’s death, totally feels like a long- long- long- setup.
I’m extremely happy that Jon won’t be participating in this. His story is with Daenerys and Tyrion.
illinidiva,
Because while dragons are for sure impressive creatures, it doesn’t automatically mean their rider has the rights to whatever he or she wants. Just as I wouldn’t be in the side of a bully just because they have more friends. (Not saying Dany is a bully.) But if excluding issue of rightful inheritance my choice would come down to who has the most merit not who simply has more fire power or is more intimidating.
Halfman,
People are just in denial lol.
LEAKS
Damm, people. What’s with all the hate? This comment section is just really horrible. Either many people here are like 13 or have seriously got to start thinking about their manner of contributing to this comment section because they behave like a 10 year old.
Jenny,
I agree Jenny, well put. As far as I’m concerned all the projected storylines we’ve come to know of on here (and from the leaks) make sense to me and most of the objections I find illogical. There have also been a number of surprises; plot lines I hadn’t seen predicted by fans during speculation. What would have been predictable was the story following many of the thoughts of some online fans.
And I cant for the life of me see how anyone can condemn something out of hand, which they haven’t seen played out on screen. There is an awful lot of complaining going on and very little mention of how those who aren’t happy would have preferred things to happen.
Hey ho, I love all the developments! ? Bring on Season 7! ?
Inga,
Geralt of Rivia,
illinidiva,
I think we need to look at this situation dispassionately, what seems to fit with each character most. Jon is a brilliant leader and the northern families believe in him but his position was not something he wanted or ever asked for.
If he wants to go South and get warm, I’ll support him, if he wants to stay in Winterfell and be a King or simply Jon, I’ll support him. He’s had a hard life, he deserves to make some choices for himself without getting shunned by angry ‘fans’.
Uhm … what ? Love is the main reason why this plot exists. It’s not out of place at all, it’s actually the foundation for the entire story.
Sorry, English is my third language and I don’t get the meaning of this expression.
But that was hardly the reason why GRRM made her have a child with Joffrey in the orignal outline. The child had the function to make it very hard for her to choose sides. She chose her baby daddy. In the show, the Boltons are gone and with Ramsay there obviously wasn’t a conflict of loyalty for her.
However, the question of Sansa’s loyalty to the North and her family is an issue for Northern Houses like the Mormonts. It is ironic: at first, as a child, she couldn’t leave the North fast enough. Yet once her father was dead, she was punished as a representative of the North by Joffrey. And now that she has returned to the North and reclaimed her Northern heritage and wants to leave all those childhood dreams behind, she is seen as an outsider by her own people.
IMO, there is absolutely no need to bring a child into this in order to continue to tell this story and reflect more on this issue. An issue that started at the very beginning of the show and also involved Arya. So I totally agree with Yaga, it does feel like a really long setup and hopefully these issues of identity and loyalty will be solved once and for all at the end of S7.
Inga,
It’s when a person ignores the fact that the man they are dating is an abusive/bad/worthless person because they just want to be in a relationship or just want the sex. I personally do not think that will be the case at all. Dany was very vocal in S6 about the fact that her lack of feelings and emotional attachement to Daario frightened her.
I don’t think she’ll get involved in yet another loveless relationship again. Her relationship with Drogo grew with time, Hizdar was emotionally irrelevant and Daario was purely physical. It’s kind of sad now that I think about it, she’s never actually experienced real love. Poor girl.
Jenny,
If they did this and it’s not just a way to explain the entire season being leaked then it was done with season 8 in mind. I hope to keep that one spoiler free and maybe so does HBO. I only accidentally spoiled this season by searching game of thrones in google the week after the leaks. I read some then a little more and before I knew it I had read them all and promised to stay spoiler free next season. Hopefully the leaker is let go and HBO will assist me with that goal.
Flayed Potatoes,
Jon is not morally grey character and in fact fans want him to be. He’s no Gary Stu but not a morally grey like let’s say Dany, Tyrion and others. They commit questionable acts, unlike Jon. All he did was justified. It’s pretty clear he’s the closest to a good guy, traditional hero. His arc is that.
Jenny,
Well, IT is irrelevant and if you hink Jon will be King bacause he’s son of Rhaegear, it’s exactly what George would want to avoid. He can be King (I doubt he would) but it’ll be because of his actions and people choose him. Much like he was LC or KITN. His parentage wouldn’t adress that.
So, yes his parentage is not about IT, more about prophecy and of course his personal dilemma. He’s not a Stark, not even a bastard. Sometimes people want it to be some global thing about his parentage, when answer is sometimes simply. It mostly will matter to Jon as a character, who he is and how it affects him. Books will for sure adress that a lot and show probably in some part too.
Leaks spoilers
Jenny,
Leaks spoilers.
So they just happens to leave evidence of this marriage at Citadel and of all people Sam connects it to Jon, how precisely? This part has so many holes. How does Sam knows it’s about Jon? Also, Ned would leave evidence behind and that can connect it to Jon and put him in danger? Ned tore down even TOJ to hide or destroyed the evidence.
Sam went to Oldtown to study and logic would tell us to find evidence how to fight white walkers, help Jorah with his greyscale. we have Bran for Jon’s parentage and Howland Reed as awitness.
Aegon thing. It’s a continuity error, so don’t try to justify it.
Aegon was mentioned within show story in S3 but not many people would remember it but it’s a continuity thing. And doubt very much Aegon is his name in the books. It doesn’t make sense, as Rhaegar already had one son named Aegon. He was on to recreating three headd dragon as Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya. He alredy had Aegon and Rhaenys. So, if he instructed Lyanna, as he expected a girl Visenya. Boy’s name would be Viserys or some version of this, not Aegon. Having Jon’s birth name be different because it sounds cool. Well, don’t know what to say about this. It should be same for the books and show.
Geralt of Rivia,
We don’t know when he will get her men.
Preach.
Seriously, if you only come here to complain and stir things up, find a better use for your time and let the other commenters discuss the spoilers in peace.
Irina Stark,
Her relationship with Drogo grew into real love.
mau,
Leaks spoilers.
Geralt of Rivia,
Leaks
Grail King,
illinidiva,
Actually it said that Jon offers to give up his title, not that he does. It also doesn’t say whether Dany accepted this offer.
Sooooo chill out?
There’s at least 42 mistakes/inconsistencies/things that make little to no sense in the leak.
John C,
That is a colloquial usage of “theory.” Like “ironic,” the word has been so badly misused that people forget that it doesn’t mean what they think it does. (No, rain during a wedding is not ironic….) And, of course, the big problem is that there really is no other word for “theory” whereas we have lots of words for “conjecture” (“possibility,” “hypothesis,” “speculation,” “idea,” etc., all can be used in it’s place.)
Another way to view it is this: GRRM follows a certain literary theory of story-telling. J. S. Bach helped invent a certain theory of musical composition. If you insert the words “speculation” or “idea” into those sentences, then they border on nonsensical!
Luka Nieto,
You forgot to suggest that he/she at least be consistent when assessing our level of immaturity! 😛
Geralt of Rivia,
Names cannot be continuity errors simply because multiple people can be given the same name. In particular,
Moreover, this would explain Jon’s name: Jon comes from the Gon of Aegon.
illinidiva,
Luka Nieto,
Haha, come on Luka. The post above mine: “s7 butchers all characters”…..
Peace is exactly what I’m looking for, but cannot be found here at this moment. and the way you replied to me really doesn’t help. But I’ll drop it if you guys appreciate the way things are discussed here.
Anyways, as a big fan of the show, the next season looks to be really, really awesome! And the team that goes beyond the wall is a fantastic combination of characters with a lot of history between them. And for a hoge scene…Good stuff!
Wimsey,
Oops :p
Luka Nieto,
I just come here to spread Love and to help the haters accept the “LOVE BOAT” that is coming…
Inga,
English is also not my native language…but I came to love this expression.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dickmatized
Why do I have to chill out exactly?
In the end whether fake or not – people will watch anyways so …
Geralt of Rivia,
Inga,
That has to be the most sexist thing I’ve ever read. Since Dany is a woman she will fall in loves with Jon and blah blah blah. I can almost guarantee they won’t write her that way.
Inga,
illinidiva,
Whilst I have not read the leaks, nor do I intend to, I assume they are not a scene-by-scene description of what happens. Which makes it rather impossible to say if they indeed “butcher characters”. I remember being very sceptical of the Sansa-in-Winterfell rumours and saying that if it happened I would hate it…ended up loving it as it cut a lot of unnecessary fat and kept Sansa interesting and critical to the story. Seeing as D&D did finish season 6 on a high note (episode 8 and the Arya storyline being the only big swing-and-a-miss for me) I actually I am relatively confident they can make decent content on their own and bring the story to a good conclusion.
Wimsey,
Leaks spoilers.
Would Lyanna heard about Aegon since Jon was born around the Sack of KL? It seems unlikely and why would he named him Aegon, when key was to recreate three headed dragon. By Aegon and Rhaenys deaths, no point of naming him Aegon. Three headed dragon was destroyed when Aegon and Rhaenys died. Aegon was being mentioned on the show in S3, so Jon having Aegon as his birth name doesn’t make much of sense. Not to mention books points more to Aemon than Aegon or any other name.
Geralt of Rivia,
Why is Jon better at winning people to his cause than Dany? What tangible evidence is there to support such a statement? Could it have been Jon winning the support of the Mormonts? Nope that was Davos. Maybe his talk with the Glovers at their castle? Nope because they told him to hit the road. Maybe it was convincing the free folk to cross the wall and fight with him? Well no because most of the free folk said no thank you and died and were raised again. All Dany has is an entire region of people that she freed from the bonds of slavery. Is it because he has a penis? Because really that’s the only explanation I can come up with for your insistence that Dany somehow end up.subservient to Jon.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BM_wl5zhDE5 Emilia with some fans. I believe it’s in N. Ireland.
Priscila,
I’m wondering if there’s a term that’s able to counter Inga’s reading of the relationship without expressly casting Jon in the role of an abusive, worthless, asshole.
So, here we have yet another great series of revelations (none of which refer directly to Jon or Dany) and yet again we get the same bitching about Jon kneeling or Dany running after Jon. Seriously guys, it’s become really tiresome- can’t we keep those arguments to the relevant threads? I know the discussions tend to drift but its the same old crap, every single time these days. ??
Priscila,
Thank you for clarification and in this case I just have to admit that I have never fully understood that type of relationship and, of course, I don’t see anything like that happening with Dany in relation to Jon. She has never shown much potential of being dickmatized: even with Daario. IMO, the major problem why Dany finally lost interest in him was that Daario appeared to be unable to develop interest in anything else but her: he never cared about the people, or making the world a better place, or similar. Dany definitely needs a man with whom she could share these dreams and concerns and Jon looks to be just perfect for that. He is not an asshole/abusive/worthless: quite on the contrary he is presented as a man who is indeed be worth of a sacrifice; his men were ready to run after him, so why wouldn’t Dany feel the same? Jon has every quality she likes and admires in men (and people in general), so it would be rather strange, if she didn’t develop affection and eventually love towards him.
And as for Jon IMO he will appreciate that deeply (to say the least): of all the women he ever knew, very few were ready to make sacrifices for him; I would even say that Lyanna Mormont was the only one, Ygritte and Sansa were straightforwardly using (and even sacrificing) him for their own interests. And Jon apparently longs for someone to love him unconditionally: he has never knew his mother, he even thought that his mother never cared about him. That will be settled after he learns the truth about her, but IMO he will still be in need of a loving woman. Of course, I don’t say that it will be all rainbows and unicorns: I expect the beginning to be rather frustrated and conflicted, but I believe that eventually Jon and Dany will become true partners in every sphere, and I don’t there is anything wrong about that.
[Production Spoilers] Not related to this article
Hursta1,
Well, if believing that love requires sacrifices is sexist, I am happy to be called sexist.
Apollo,
Lol it’s not possible to read the comments here nowadays without getting a headache. I barely skimp through the comments section now.
Hursta1,
Priscila,
Same, girl. Same. I think I’m pulling a ‘Gendry’ here, obsessed with boats and all ..
Hursta1,
Strength-wise, the North doesn’t stand a chance, not without Dany’s help and he obviously was aware of that. But I imagine that a) he didn’t want to seem weak in front of her and b) he didn’t really know she could be trusted which is why he refused to kneel when they first met. Then we get this carbunkle with him
He needs her help more than he needs his pride.
illinidiva,
I just want him to do whatever the hell he wants, for once in his life. In love with her or not, if he wants to bend the knee and he feels like it’s the right thing to do, he can bloody well bend the damn knee and people need to stop bitching about it.
ygritte,
Actually one of the main motifs of Game of Thrones is that paper claims do not matter. Think of Cersei ripping up Robert’s orders. Why should Dany who has superior forces give up her claim to Jon?
Yaga,
Also in the books Arya (during Ned’s confession ) wonders why is Sansa smiling . Sansa is still with Petyr and she trusts him . I feel that there is going to be a clash between the Stark sisters in the books because of Littlefinger . Arya doesn’t know about Sansa’s plea for mercy and another Stark may ruin Petyr’s plans because he wants Sansa to feel he is her only true friend and ally and this is the show version. Half truths is what Cersei used to win Tyrion’s trial . Petyr was loyal to Jon Arryn for years until he didn’t need to be anymore.Same with Ned.He was his “ally” until he wasn’t.
The devil is on the details and without the details , Petyr can make Sansa look like a traitor to her family (married a Lannister ,married a Bolton , “asked” Ned to confess, lied to Jon) and Arya a bad sister who doesn’t care for Sansa ( she escaped but “left Sansa behind” , Sansa was beaten and raped while Arya was “having fun” in sunny Braavos etc.) . Basically things Sansa-haters say to prove Arya is better and things Arya-haters say to prove the opposite !
The Love Boat will be beautiful, people, let´s all chill, okay?
Dany will not be dickmatized by Jon. I really believe by the end of season, they will see each other as equals. And this is HUGE. I am glad they establish this relationship before the BIG reveal about Jon´s parentage, this I think it is a good decision ( not sure this is part of GRRM bullet points, or just DnD) and , at least for me, feels less contrived than , let´s say, Edmure falling in love with Roslin on the day of their wedding…
Hursta1,
You’re impling Iam being sexist, is that it? Just because I said Jon is perhaps (by no means guarantee it’s questionable because both of them are good at it) better than Dany at something. Judging by your comments. I think it must be Jon ends up subservient to Dany or Dany is better than Jon for it to be right. If that makes you feel better.
A big thank you from me to our Admins who keep us all up to date with such a wealth of info. Its making the off season so interesting and really whetting my appetite for Season 7.
I did always feel that the likelihood of Jorah heading to Oldtown in search of a cure made the most sense as it’s the home of the Maesters. Of course Sam knows Shireen’s greyscale was halted and given his personal knowledge of Jorah’s father, Sam, being Sam would be only too glad to try and help.
I’m looking forward to the Sansa/Ayra/Bran reunion and it’s no surprise that Sansa and Ayra would not see eye to eye. They never did before without all the experiences they’ve been through since being separated in Season 1. They are polar opposites after all.
I never did buy into the supposed Jon/Sansa conflict mentioned by Sophie and the showrunners at the end of Season 6. None of what was seen onscreen suggested that to be the case in my view. All the discussion supporting that view just felt like attempts to bend what was portrayed to fit that scenario.
Littlefinger meddling to cause conflict….well what else does LF do lol?! He’s the master manipulator and at some point even his fingers have to get burnt surely.
Ayra knows of his treachery, he can’t wriggle his way out of that one easily. I’m intrigued to see it play out.
It feels fitting that Stark reunions should happen as we approach the end of the series. A fundamental part of the whole story is the Stark family being torn apart and flung all over the globe. To have them coming back together, even if some are in conflict gives the story more depth. I would love to see Ayra and Jon reunite but that would have to wait until Jon heads back to Winterfell perhaps and we’ve no sign of that happening …..at least not yet. I find it hard to believe some kind of Jon/Ayra catch up won’t occur at some point, even if it was in sad circumstances.
Leaks spoilers
Good decision? If you’re looking towards them breaking it up for some reasons death, one of them (we know who) not being too cool to be with his family member. Basically this rings bad ending for their relationship, GOT style. I hate to see my favourite characters suffer (even tho Iam not of this pair) once more but that’s the way they roll. Something good is usually followed by something bad.
300 wights , new kingsguard uniform , Arya-Sansa news , Oldtown- Jorah news and yet people are arguing in the comments about Dany and Jon. I know some people like the leaks and some don’t like the leaks but can we please not turn every single conversation into “Dany vs Jon” battle and “Dany-Jon shippers vs Dany-Jon non-shippers” battle , especially when the article is not about their storylines (except the wight hunt maybe )!!!
They are great characters and i understand people are passionate about them but some hardcore fans can be really annoying . I don’t want to be rude but enough is enough , maybe you should move your debate somewhere else.
Priscila,
Leaks
And I would be against the same arrangement with Dany BTW. If Dany for some odd reason gives up her claim to Jon, I do not think she should continue with any sort of romantic relationship with him nor would I be in favor of them marrying.
Geralt of Rivia,
I mean as characters….
I love Dany, but she is a god-like creature now, the last of her kind- as Maester Aemon said ” A Targaryen, alone in the world…”. I do think it is a good decision to have her strike this balanced relationship with Jon before all the revelations and the war starts.
Look, I am not sure if this is DnD trying to make things more palatable, or if this is part of GRRM plans, but once again, if done correctly, it would only add to both Jon and Dany journeys.
Have the knights of the Vale dissaapeared into thin air in the upcoming season?
They are not attacking the Lannisters or the undead, have they gone home?
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Robin is the lord of the Vale and Royce is the commander but Petyr is the “true” ruler of the Vale (for now). He will wait and join the winning side at the last minute.Like Tywin Lannister did (Robert’s rebellion ). No matter who wins he’s army will be fresh while the other armies will be licking their wounds.
konna,
I don’t hate anyone, I think each character brings something unique and exciting to the table. But people are focusing on Jon and Dany because they’re the two wheels that fuel the story forward, like it or not.
But the Jon/Dany plot is still extremely blurry and that boat scene, as beautiful as it will be, it will create even more tension down the road. So naturally, people are curious to see where it could go.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Wasn’t the actor who plays Yohn Royce seen on set somewhere? Or am I imagining that? I forget but I’ve got it stuck in my head that he appears in Season 7.
Priscila,
I agree. It’s the best way to keep the story balanced going forward. As it has been from the very beginning, birth, power, significant other, mercy, death, rebirth and now love and war. I think it’s very fitting for both storylines and speaks to the nature of the characters and their tandem development.
Sean C.,
…and when Arya shoved Bran and told him to “move!”….at the reception for the King.
I don’t understand. Why is everyone discussing Jon and Dany when this post has nothing to do with them and is about the Stark reunion?!
Last time Arya saw her, Sansa was standing with Cersai, Joffrey and Littefinger on the raised area smiling like a fool waiting for their father to confess his treason.
Irina Stark,
I have no problem with that and i agree with you(although Tyrion,Bran ,Arya and Sansa are equally important to me) . My problem is:
person a: you suck! Dany is the best!
person b: no you suck !Dany is a bicth!
person a: i would like to see your face when stupid Jon kneels to her hahaha!
person b: Hahahaha some people live in denial blah blah blah….
That’s my problem .I really enjoy conversations about Jon or Dany but with ADULTS! And some fans can not act like adults!
Anon,
Yes ! Arya doesn’t know what we know .Littlefinger can use that .He doesn’t need her to believe him just to put the doubt in her head.All he needs to do is tell Arya that Sansa asked Robb to kneel and their father to confess . Half truths are a schemer’s weapon.
Irina Stark,
We’ve got so much engaged into the discussion on Dany vs Jon that we have totally overlooked Bran and the effect his reappearance may have on Jon.
Leak speculation
Wimsey,
Speaking of Jon’s name, I would like you as a book expert.
Well, she kind of found out a few minutes later when Joffrey explained to the crowd that Sansa had begged mercy for Eddard. And when Joffrey calls for Ned’s head, Arya also notices her sister on her knees, sobbing hysterically and later she still hears her screaming.
But I agree that Arya may very well question Sansa’s methods and that LF would try enforce the negative views both sisters had of each other. However, there is reason to believe that in the end sisterhood will prevail. I very much like these two quotes from AGoT:
Ned to Arya:“Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you …”
Mordane to Sansa: “You’re a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow that when it comes to that creature you’re as willful as your sister Arya.” If that creature, the direwolf, stands as a symbol of House Stark, then it could mean that when it comes to family, both sisters will go She-Wolf on everyone who dares to threaten them. Granted, for Sansa it took a few seasons to finally get it, but since last season she is on a pretty steady path 🙂
konna,
That’s understandable, some of them are a little bit over the top for my liking too. I for one never really understood why there’s such animosity between their fandoms. I’m rereading the books now and it’s like I’m rediscovering both of them again and seeing them in the light going off of S7 leaks. There is perfect ballance between their stories, the plots are interwoven and the similarities perfectly nuanced and they’re both so similar in so many ways, you’d think people who root for one of them would naturally root for the other one as well. But I guess pinning two incredible characters against each other is a sport most people enjoy.
I for one don’t, I want them both to survive and thrive ! I’m a romantic at heart, haha !
Inga,
I have always thought Bran should rule at Winterfell. I feel like his story is bound to that castle moreso than his other brothers and sisters. He knows every stone and every piece of metal and every nook in that keep back from his climbing days. GRRM describes Winterfell in detail for the first time in the books from Bran’s perspective. Also his journey as the Three Eyed Raved began right there, as we see him dream of falling from the tower. I could see him rule because he is wise and also a really good person, he could restore Winterfell to it’s former glory mirroring Bran the Builder.
I’m really curious to see how that will play out going forward.
That’s right. And past behavior is predictive of future behavior, right. Arya remembers her sister’s betrayal by the river when Joffrey threatened to “gut” her. It won’t be a stretch for her to believe the worst of her sister….even though it is, essentially, true. I don’t know if Arya will want to hear excuses.
Halfman,
Bronze Royce was seen in Belfast along with other northern cast in the photos by PAP4Y.
Especially characters who never met ,never heard of each other , have completely different goals (win the throne , defeat WWs) !
I know how you feel. My favorite character is Arya and my second favorite is Sansa , enough said!!!
Well, well, well. Arya, Sansa and Bran reunion. LOVE IT. All the leaks on reddit are being confirmed one by one. YES. I’m very excited for all this. I have to say, my most expected reunion (and i think for a lot of people as well), it is Arya and Jon. Maybe we will have to wait a little more for this epic reunion, since we know Jon will be in a lot of business with our lovely Dany and also the dragons.
And Arya will be very busy dealing with problems in the North and LF. And Arya and Sansa clashing isn’t any news and actually i would be kind of shocked if after their reunion, they would be all flowers and sunshine, since we know how complicated their relationship was. Of course they would have discussions again. But this time, will be more about political matters, since Jon won’t be there to make decisions.
It’s not just some catfight. I think all this will help Sansa and Arya to understand each other better and finally be able to have a good sister relationship.
spoilersSo, now we can very much expect to LF to be burned in the end of S7 lol
The battle will be SO HUGE, i honestly can’t wait to see Dany going to Jon’s rescue. S7 will be so AMAZING. The only problems is that it’s still very far away. But hey, at least we have juicy spoilers.
spoilersEmilia is in Belfast right now.Kit is there as well.I just saw pictures of her with some fans.
Vally,
As i said half truths. Sansa cried when Lady died but Arya blame it on her. Same can happen here . Sansa cried for her father but Little(shit)finger will try to “convince” Arya that Sansa’s naivety played a part to Ned’s downfall.
I also believe that they will prevail but i think it will be bittersweet. Arya was the one who never wanted to leave Winterfell and i am afraid she will at the end, maybe travel west of Westeros .Home is not the same anymore (Frodo style). I am 100% sure that at least one of the Stark kids will pull a “Frodo” (probably Arya or Bran)!
ALERT: The reddit rumor that Tom Hooper is replacing John Bradley-West as Samwell Tarly is not true.
😉
Congrats to Ms. Clarke on her new role, I hope the script allows for happy moments between Arya and Sansa, and finally concerning that large but narrow ice corridor set they constructed, could it have been created by say an Ice Dragon blasting a passageway through the Wall..
Emma,
Kit was supposed to be in London. Someone said it here in comments.
Priscila,
Leaks spoilers.
konna,
Vally,
Anon,
I just want to add something to this nice and wise discussion about Arya, Sansa, and Littlefinger. I have rewatched S6 recently and came to conclusion that Arya showed a great deal of naivety in that story with Lady Crane. Let’s be frank: she was taught to tell the truth from lies, but she immediately fell under the spell of an actress and decided that she was a good person undeserving to die in any way. She even decided to put her own life at risk to save that actress, and then in Ep 8 and we leaned that this actress had a habit of cutting her lovers for their alleged adultery, that she cut Bianca’s face and who knows what else such a jealous and violent women could do. At least for me, Lady Crane’s flippant confession was a hint that Bianca (if that indeed was Bianca) could have had serious and even legit reasons to commission Lady Crane’s death. However, Arya never thought or tried to find out why would anyone commission that: she noticed that Bianca wanted her role and was perfectly happy with that explanation.
Hence, despite of all the training Arya received in the House of Black and White, she is still naive and can make rushed judgments. Maybe, she still finds it hard to apply the skills of telling the truth from lies in practice, maybe, the House of Black and White has impeded development of her abilities of seeing shades of gray which usually come with age and maturity, but one way or another I also see Arya to be potentially susceptible to Littlefinger’s manipulations.
Of course, that doesn’t mean that Sansa is not susceptible: Littlefinger is a master manipulator. But I do hope that all of his manipulations will break against a imple family solidarity of the Starks.
Javi is reporting that the ambush will take place in episode 4, Matt Shakman is directing.
It was originally reported that Mark Mylod was scouting the area back in July.
I certainly hope the boat sex scene is not true. Them banging while the Wall falls is the hokeiest thing ever. Seriously, the description makes it seem like Dany reaching orgasm leads to the apocalypse or something.
illinidiva,
It won’t happen at the same time LOL
konna,
Actually, Sansa blames Arya for Lady’s death.
Arya blames Cersei for Lady’s death, that is why Cersei is on Arya’s List.
Geralt of Rivia,
Leak speculation
Inga,
Yes Arya always jumps to conclusions. I am not sure about Lady Crane but the fact that she felt betrayed when Jaqen sent the waif to “kill” her (to me the waif was a “target” too) proves your point.Some part of her still believed Jaqen was her friend .And with the history the two sisters have, Little(shit)finger’s plan will work (for a time).
Inga,
I think you’re trying to pull more out of the Lady Crane – Arya relationship than necessary or intended. She never told a lie to Arya so there wasn’t anything to judge from that. So later (in D&D’s story) she finds out Lady Crane has had some anger issues when her lovers cheated on her, yet she didn’t kill them, just wounded them and then treated those wounds because she felt bad (as an explanation in D&D’s story for how she knows what to do with Arya’s wounds). I don’t think this makes her a person bad enough to warrant killing, especially when the reason for it has nothing to do with her personal love life. We KNOW Bianca’s reason was purely to take her position in the troop. That story arc is written, performed and done. There isn’t any more to it.
mau,
Earth will move. Literally.
Thanks. That means Jon Snow will arrive at Dragonstone in Ep. 3 and Daenerys will take off in the next episode. Will the sack of Highgarden take place in Episode 3 then? And when will Greyworm vs. Casterly Rock happen? Not to mention Euron’s sea-battle.
viki,
That is true. But i think Arya believed that if Sansa wasn’t “stupid” and a liar things would have turned differently .She knows her sister is a good person and loves their family but back then Sansa lied because she wanted to be a queen and Micah died because of her (in Arya’s mind, poor boy was doomed , even if Sansa had told the truth Joff had already given the order) . Littlefinger partly blames Sansa for Ned’s death( again because of Joff) and then leads Arya to the conclusion that Sansa’s naivety or ambition puts Jon in danger.
Anon,
Technically the last time Arya saw Sansa she was being restrained by a Kingsguard as she screamed for Joffrey to stop the execution.
But it’s very possible that the details of that moment could have become blurred during that trauma and over the years.
Even so, there’s loads of potential for Littlefinger to manipulate Arya.
Although, I figure Arya’s experiences of the playing the game of faces has surely taught her how to spot a liar when she sees one.
moiaf,
Leaks spoilers.
Kay,
That’s a lot. I still think it’s weird that Jon arrives and Dany leaves the next episode but there you have it.
I think Grey Worm might arrive in Casterly Rock episode 4 or 5.
The sea battle could also be episode 3, so they show Dany’s enemies getting the upper hand before she fights back.
moiaf,
So that means Jon arrives at Dragonstone pretty early, maybe as early as episode 2 since he has filmed many scenes with Emilia and the Targaryen crew and I don’t think they’ll clutter them all in one episode.
Inga,
I agree. He’s still the best man in the 7Ks and he always will be, regardless of his title. Also what I really want to know is why
Why wouldn’t he tell her the truth ? Is he ashamed ? She will see the stab wounds on his body during the boat scene regardless. It’s really weird to me for some reason. I don’t get what his problem is.
illinidiva,
It won’t be at the same time, Benioff and Weiss are too smart for that. Plus, the NK and newly upgraded
That will be the true climax of the season, lol !
Irina Stark,
Yes, I guess he could arrive at the end of episode 2. I just find it weird that he gets left behind at Dragonstone while Dany goes and ambushes the Lannisters. But, I’m sure the show runners have a reason.
I like the idea of Sam and Jorah meeting, what with all their various connections.
I hope the writers made the effort to come up with some good dialogue between the two of them.
I want to hear Sam’s thoughts on Jon and both of their thoughts on Jeor Mormont.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
But he doesn’t have to lie. That is what makes it interesting . Sansa was “forced” to send the letter to Robb and promised Joff that her father will confess ,all to help her father .If Littlefinger tells Arya what Sansa did he is not lying ,he is just not telling the reasons that lead Sansa to do what she did. Same thing Varys and Trant did during Tyrion’s trial, they told the truth but they left important details. None of them lied.
Inga,
I agree
Geralt of Rivia,
LEAKS
BunBunStark,
Let’s hope the conflict is like Sansa and Jon’s from Season 6. That wasn’t too bad
Sean C.,
It’ll still be great! Jon and Sansa never interacted in the show and that reunion hit us in the feels!
Clob,
Amen to this
Kay,
Arya is an assassin, not a soldier
Clob,
Perfectly said. I couldn’t agree more !
Irina Stark,
Leaks spoilers.
Leaks said ep 3 is the arrival and there is some scenes to do in Northern plot. Also travelling to DS. Besides, it’s 2 and half of episodes. Plenty of time and scenes to do.
Inga,
Leaks spoilers.
konna,
That’s true.
I hope the writers have firmly grasped that, and have Littlefinger act appropriately shrewdly. Because it’d be really jarring to have Littlefinger lying to Arya’s face and her not clocking it.
I’m also interested to see how the dynamics between all three siblings will work. Will Bran be there while all this tension between the sisters builds up, I wonder?
And will there be any tension between them and Bran if he leapfrogs them to rule Winterfell in Jon’s absence, or even if he chooses not to?
Jenny,
Leaks spoilers.
Jon knows wights don’t travel alone, always in packs and with white walkers as their masters. Also, trying to convince Cersei and Lannisters? If ambush go as it says, Lannisters are heavily defeated. Why parlay for a few thousand men? It raises more questions than answers.
Stark children reuniting will be amazing! I can definitely see Arya backing up Jon or even Bran to rule before Sansa. Sansa has not made very wise choices in the past and I can’t see Arya forgetting that.
I was wondering how Jorah finds the cure at the Citadel so quickly when Stannis had a hard time to find someone to cure Shireen. So i have a theory: Shireen is of house Baratheon ,she is the King’s niece ,people searched for the cure and she was healed.That is a known fact . So we can assume that the maesters learned how to treat greyscale after Shireen. But if that’s the case why the treatment isn’t known to the world. I know one of the reasons Shireen survived was because of her young age but what if there’s more to that. What if the maesters that can treat GS are those who have forged a valyrian link. Those who study magic . The maesters hate magic and anyone who practice it , but they were forced to treat Shireen because of her status.Or maybe they believe that people with greyscale are cursed in the eyes of the Seven.That will force Sam and Jorah to obtain the cure secretly and flee Oldtown. Sam will steal some “papers” or books , Jorah will fight some sparrows (Citadel must have some sparrows left ) .What do you guys think?
For me, the most interesting way to play out the end of Baelish’s arc would be for Sansa to allow it to appear that she was still under his influence, but actually be using that very deliberately to draw him into a trap. There would be a lot of satisfaction in seeing her out-Littlefinger Littlefinger. Whether he actually dies by her hand, Arya’s, Jon’s, Sweetrobin’s, Sandor’s, Brienne’s, a pack of wights or someone else (perhaps LSH, in the books) matters less to me than simply to see him fatally outsmarted in the end. If his fall is in some way a product of his own smugness or miscalculation, all the better!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Arya is an assassin ,Sansa is a politician but Bran is practically a god. He will see the big picture and not care about ruling . I don’t believe he will “expose” Littlefinger , he will remind them what’s important .Winter is coming and in the winter the lone wolf dies but the pack survives. I really want to see an interaction between Petyr and Bran.
Petyr: “I am powerful because i know many things and knowledge is power” (smirks).
Bran : (rolls eyes) ” Bitch please!”
Priscila,
The brothel joke really isn’t a joke. Tywin was telling this to Tyrion to make him angry. Tyrion’s first wife was supposedly a whore. Tywinn lied to Tyrion, so he would leave her. Later, Tyrion found out that the story was all made up.
Firannion,
Yeap! I want it to be slow .I want him to loose every single thing he earned scheming one by one. And then before he dies ,while he still believes Sansa is his pawn , i want Sansa to whisper in his ear “we are all liars here…” !!!!Give her a badass line .,please D&D please!!
I’m curious about whether Sansa and Arya will know about Jon’s parentage before season’s end. I’m not sure it would alter Arya’s perception of him, but it may be cathartic for Sansa. We’ve seen her inability to fully trust Jon and much of that is caused by what can only be described as conditioning by Catelyn.
As regards Jon. He couldn’t bend the knee to Daenerys when they first meet because he’d lose his autonomy and she’d obviously ignore his claims about WW and conscript him. He doesn’t care about his KITN status but losing his autonomy would be disastrous. It wouldn’t give Daenerys the north, just because Jon swore fealty to her. The northern houses wouldn’t coming rushing to join her cause when there’s a greater threat at their door. Jon would just end up another soldier in her quest. Holding out is his best option.
Bending the knee to Daenerys after he’s secured her Dragons and her soldiers means he’s achieved his objectives. However, it could prove problematic when people find out that he’s a Targaryen, as he would’ve essentially sworn fealty to his own house, which really doesn’t benefit the north in any form. It only serves to re-establish the old power dynamics of Targaryen’s in a position of strength with a subservient north. It would make Daenerys look like a hypocrite because her whole spiel is breaking the wheel. A union of Targaryens certainly wouldn’t be that.
As far as I”m concerned, the rumor about Dany’s dragons being replaced by less expensive ones just doesn’t fly.
^.=.^
I’m wondering do they want Cersei to allow them to use King’s Landing either as a strategic option or to start moving people there for safety purposes. But she’ll obviously think it’s a ruse to get her leave or make her vulnerable. Hence the suicide mission.
Oh shut that! Not every location is huge battle all at once. Sometimes the north slows down a bit and the south heats up or vice versa. You just had a battle in Winterfell the last two seasons. Don’t want to overkill it with another one right away.
Time for some politics and rebuilding in Winterfell even if that means disagreement between siblings.
If you just want mindless action Marvel movies is for you
King Podrick,
Thank you!! everyone says how perfect season 1 was (i agree) and there was no battle!!!
Many great Got moments have nothing do with battles or duels but with politics and schemes!!!
King Podrick,
Marvel movies are not about mindless action.
follyofdaedalus,
They want her men and word that she’ll support them and not attack.
Firannion,
konna,
I think that Sansa is already playing Littlefinger. On my like 20th rewatch of Winds of Winter I realized that it was something weird about their interaction in the godswood of Winterfell. Sansa was sharing her thoughts with Littlefinger as if she was still a naive girl unable to keep her mouth shut, when talking with people she doesn’t trust. So, what if Sansa was overplaying her naivety? After all, she made Littlefinger to reveal his final goal, and that could have been her plan.
Irina Stark,
Leak discussion.
Clob,
It’s good to hear that we agree on something, however Geralt may be right too.
As for Lady Crane’s story, it left quite many questions: for instance how a second-rate actress could afford services of the FM and whether having he face cut was a part of the price for that service (it sort of reminded me Mirri who didn’t tell Dany the true price of her services too). Maybe we will learn more in S 7-8: not about Lady Crane or Bianca, but rather about the pricing of magic. I kind of feel that this might be related to the endgame and its resolution. But I won’t mind, if some questions will remain unanswered and open to interpretation: that’s the best part of the show and the books.
Inga,
I thought about it too. Maybe that’s what the whole “Sansa betrays Jon” is about. We were let to believe the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn for 4 seasons until Lysa spilled the beans. They will make us believe that Sansa betrays Jon (especially with the Arya -Sansa conflict ) until the final stage of Sansa’s plan.
Relevant reads
http://movieweb.com/fake-batman-v-superman-script-written-and-leaked-by-kevin-smith/
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2016/09/26/game-thrones-actor-alexander-siddig-slams-hbo-shows-pay.html
konna,
Ha! And just for good measure…
*Bran wargs into Littlefinger and has him climb onto the edge of the Winterfell ramparts*
*Bran wargs out of Littlefinger*
Bran: “Careful, Lord Baelish. You wouldn’t want to fall, would you? How did you get up there anyway? Do you know?”
The fact that we find it weird that Jon Snow arrives, and Daenerys leaves in a later episode, simply means that even though we know some of the leaks, there are BIG chunks that are missing. With the accelerated pace, we can’t have episodes where characters sit and just chat and then chat some more. It has to be action-packed.
Some time back I theorized that when Daenerys goes after the Lannisters in the ambush, she will know that Casterly Rock is relatively undefended, and so might send GW there. So yes, the CR sequence could be a quick episode 4 battle too, or early Ep. 5. In order to spread out big action sequences more, the naval battle needs to happen either in Ep. 2 or 3 (making Daenerys angry enough to fight back, as you point out), because in Ep. 5, we have the stealth mission of Tyrion and Davos to KL already. I favor Ep. 2, because we already have sack of Highgarden in 3.
sebaciel,
Oh, thank you. An interesting read. I have also had and still have an impressions that the leaks are intentional and, though they contain a lot of true information, their true intention is to conceal some game-changing twists (Riverlands, for instance), but my guesses have been based on what I know about promoting secrecy in real modern warfare, rather than show business.
I have also noticed that the leaks from GoT often involve plots or even episodes that get the most of criticism afterwards: like first 4 episodes of S5 (which were found boring for some reason) or No-one last season. So, leaks can be sort of a damage control: they jump a shark, but then the fandom stomachs it and starts looking for the positive. So, potentially it may be an explanation too: IMO
Anyway, I’m really looking forwards airing of the season to see how all these information games work.
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
I want to see the bad man fly!!!!
Clob,
illinidiva,
Well, GOT is an utopia (or an anti-utopia), so anything can happen, but when it comes to real medieval history, I just have to agree with a colleague MA: you know nothing and your vision of that period is absolutely wrong.
Me too!
The more I read about the Sansa and Arya plotline, the best scenario (IMHO) is for Littlefinger to start playing both girls by basically telling each girl what they want to hear, ie confirm what they already believe to be ‘true’ about the other. The girl’s biggest (relationship) problem is their inability to communicate with each other, both are stubborn and have a set idea about the other that clouds their ability to truly listen to the other. This plays out until Arya/Sansa argue/confront each other – which turns into a real conversation in which they both start to see how Littlefinger has been playing them against the other… then revenge is in order 🙂
All blames goes to Littlefinger, the girls only act the way their characters would, but then they have a ‘growth’ moment where they start to re-build trust with each other.
Is this too much to ask for?
As for Jon/Dany/Cersei – it all seems so complicated, I don’t see how they are going to fit everything in 7 episodes… I don’t know what to wish for, I just hope it all makes some sense and doesn’t feel too rushed or forced – as is likely due to the limited time to accomplish everything that needs to happened. fingers crossed.
So happy to hear about Emilia being cast in the SW franchise ..
Very happy for her and my wishes to her ..hope she gets more and more recognized and do well
Inga
Of course an absolute ruler can execute a lover or spouse he or she gets bored with especially if it is some love match and the person doesn’t bring anything of value to the table. Ask Anne Boleyn about how her marriage to Henry VIII worked out. And even spouses who survived and were of value for strategic reasons didn’t do much ruling if they didn’t have the actual claim. Take Elizabeth of York for instance. She had a better claim on the throne than Henry VII did but was basically a figurehead/ broodmare who didn’t have any say in anything and just popped out Henry’s kids for him. Absolute power is absolute power for a reason. Any authority that someone has under this system is granted by the ruler. So Jon could be granted authority by Dany but he would still essentially be her servant and it is ultimately based on her ultimate say so. She still has the right to execute him if he displeases her. Since he gives up his one bargaining chip to her, no one will care. Remember that Bran is the Lord of Winterfell. Once Jon gives up his King in the North title, he goes back to being a bastard without claim or lands.
And Dany kneeling to Jon is even stupider than him kneeling to her. And you are saying that she does this for love which totally sounds like a bad romance novel. Why should Dany give up her claim to Jon? It is hers by right of conquest and submitting to him means that he has the ultimate control over her fate.
I submit (with the support of those wise folks behind the Oxford & Cambridge dictionaries) that Arya is not an “assassin,” who murders for “political, financial, or religious reasons,” but an “avenger” (not with a capitalized “a,” Marvel fans) who harms or punishes those who have been responsible for wrongs done to her/himself or family.
I can only hope that D&D keep it this way.
BTW, I got through this thread so much faster when I stopped reading all comments containing the words “Dany,” “Jon,” and “kneel.”
illinidiva,
What you seem to be omitting is that Dany is a good person. She has always treasured the people around her, even her handmaiden advises her in her decision making, she named a Lannister Hand of the Queen because he was a good, loyal man. She accepted Barristan at her side, the man who fought for the usurper, she accepted Jorah, a traitor in her midst despite all, she welcomed Daario, a sellsword who could have cut her throat at any moment, she accepted Varys, the spy who oversaw the campaign to have her killed, her entire team is made up of misfits.Did she execute Tyrion for bringing destruction and fire to Meereen ? No, she listened to him every step of the way. And Jon is good, kind, fearless, brave and true. If you think she will demean Jon because she is in a position of power over him then cleary you don’t know what you’re talking about. She won’t just respect him, she will bloody adore him !!
Trisha,
me too!!!
Boudica,
As you say holding courts is eighty percent job for a king or queen ..which dany does unlike kings like Robert or joffery or any other kings ..
She inspires people and she is charismatic ..
But for someone who has never had any proper education and never known meereenese culture before she went there…she was doing the best she can out of the worst situations..
Baristan selmy himself notes that dany being a small girl is the one who actually holds all of them together ..
Credit is given for jon striking a deal with IB but similarly dany made a deal with lhazreen
Credit is given for jon for manning the castles and rebuilding it but similarly dany creates the mothers men and others..started vegetation and agriculture around meereen ..
Jon understanding north or northern politics should not come as a surprise since he practically grew up there and had the Lord’s education ..I would be disappointed if he didn’t understand the north.
Geralt of Rivia,
Because at the end of the day is cause is telling everyone about WW and want to fight them ..
Sure who can top that ..and everyone must commit to his cause so dany no exception to this will give the armies of unsullied and dothraki which she inspired by the way for Jon’s cause ( Iam wondering when did it became HIs cause i thought this was everyone’s war humanity’s war)
Jon’s blood has always been a factor in his rise to power… Hr would not have been named as steward for LC and then named as LC or KITN if not for people considering him as Blood of Ned stark ..
Similarly his blood of rhaegar will also be a factor when he becomes king of westeros …
Inga,
The women and child appear with rhaegar in that vision is Elia and Aegon and its confirmed by GRRm ..
dragonbringer,
Of course you’re gonna jump at this part that Jon perhaps could be better at her in something. By no means guarantee, it’s maybe or maybe not.
His actions and wha he represents as a person his values were main reasons (blood was secondary in KitN) why Jon was selected LC and Sam stated them, what he did at BotB and his actions to trying to save Rickon, leading on the battlefield. Not because of blood, if blood was so important Sansa would’ve been chosen to be QitN.
Targaryens lost any claim to IT (Baratheons took it by conquest, same way Targaryens did before them) and it really is not not about it, anything happening with Jon as potemntially King of Westeros would be straight because of his actions in the war of dawn, just like if Dany was Queen it would be because what she did for people and people seeing him or her as the best option moving forward. Not because he is son of someone who once had claim to IT chair.
To the people implying everything has to be equal at all times between a man and a woman cause man must never let woman feel inferior to him, this is one reason why many relationships do not last in the modern world imo.
Bored of the Dany-Jon debate. I don’t think GRRM wrote either of them with the end game being that one loses to the other all the agency they have acquired. But if one does they will get it back in some twisty way. They are written in a way where each one would have a big role to play in the coming events.
I’m really unsure about Sansa. I can see her going either way tbh. Either all in for family or turning traitor to achieve her own goal. All I know is and I think we all agree the whole long FM arc with Arya is not just leading up to her killing a few more Freys, and settling down at WF to argue with Sansa and then make up. I think there’s either a glorious pay off with it, or else something heartbreaking, no in between.
Geralt of Rivia,
That’s why I said its one of the reason and not the only reason that there is ..
Being Ned Stark’s bastard is what got the position he attained in NW when he got there ..from there his actions matter..
Similar to how there was a line about Ned stark blood running through him in KItN …rhaegar’s blood will also become a factor .
Dany has her dragons for power using them she rises to power and Jon had Ned stark and his upbringing and education which was useful to his raise in power ..
Iam not even going to comment about the other thing because why bother… If it its not a guarantee why mention in the first place ..
illinidiva,
Oh, my sweet ignorant summer child! Let me give you a short history lesson.
The Tudors were not medieval rulers: they were rulers of the Early Modern Times; and one of the features of this period was a rise of absolutism, which distorted the traditional medieval ruling model in many ways including change of the roles of royal spouses (mostly female, but male too, because in Early Modern Times queen regnant no longer need a husband to command her armies on the battlefield).
But in the Middle Ages (from the late 5th to the late 15th century) rulers rarely had absolute power; it was balanced by the powers of other top-rank nobles and within a family (be it royal, noble, or common), the powers of a man were very much balanced by the powers of a wife. Yes, within the countries which converted to Christianity early, the role of a women was gradually restricted to the role of a mother alone (partially, because Christian mythology had no place for a divine spouse; partially, because the Church usurped the role of the divine souse itself). But in the countries which converted to Christianity later, women held power as spouses too, because it was a divine model; almost every god was coupled with a goddess and the universal balance was seen as a balance of between the divine spouses/lovers: their quarrels resulted in winter and other disasters, whereas making love brought spring, etc. Of course, translating these divine relationship models to real life was not without complications, and a truly balanced and loving couple was hard to find in the Middle Ages. But let’s admit it: it’s a rarity in our modern world tool, though no-one forces us into arranged marriages anymore. So, I just wanted to say that, apart from many negative examples, there were positive examples too. Not all the women were capable of fulfilling the prescribed traditional role of being a savior, a prophet, a fortune-bringer, and the last line of defense, but those who did lived their lives loved and respected and ended up glorified as saints after their death. And the sames applies to men who married regnant queens, but managed to live up to the high standards of warrior and father-type ruler.
I don’t want to flood this thread with these examples: they would be off-topic to GoT, because GoT/ASOIAF is a fantasy developing at the point where the traditional medieval family-type ruling model is being put to rest to usher in more “progressive” enlightened absolutism and therefore I partly share your concerns about Dany becoming a villain and burning Jon to ashes in her quest for power, but then again: not all of the early absolutists indulged into tyranny – some of them were saved from the curse of being corrupted by power exactly because they had right spouses and healthy family relations. And therefore we can at least hope for the best. And if our hopes don’t come true, throwing GoT/ASOIAF into the bin and looking for positive in real history will also be an option.
Trisha,
That’s the one I’m waiting for ??
Firannion,
Arya knows Littlefinger was working with the Lannisters because she saw him at Harrenhal in that meeting with Tywin Lannister while she was his cup bearer.
illinidiva,
With Dany it will depend on what he is asking for. She said so when Yara and Theon showed up. She didn’t ask them to bend the knee but to become allies IF they stop reaving and raping. And they agreed. They didn’t give up the Iron Islands. They will continue to rule them.
Luka Nieto,
I share your ugh sentiment. It’s honestly a bit sexist to label a conflict between two girls as a cat fight on this show! A show that has always been about about family and power.
Guess what.
I join those who are dismayed that this thread too has devolved into a gender-toned debate about Jon and Dany’s maneuvering, political and otherwise. Didn’t we have enough of that in the plethora of comments with the many articles about filming in Spain and the leaks? Finally we get a longed-for thread about developments elsewhere and it too is overwhelmed with Jon this and Dany that. Blimey!
Thank you, Keltia, and others for re-asserting something hardly anyone (including most critics) gets: Arya is an avenger, revenger, vigilante but NOT an assassin or murderer. She’s used assassins’ methods, especially post-Braavos, but even including the KL stable boy, ALL of her kills have been self-defense or punishment of evil-doers.
Shortly after arriving home, Arya will see Littlefinger and probably blurt out, “What are you/is he doing here?”. Upon hearing that LF brought the Vale troops and saved Jon’s arse at the last minute, her suspicions will be somewhat allayed. He’s the saga’s most skillful emotional manipulator and may be able to multiply the doubts Arya already has (and should) about Sansa, but I hope he won’t fully convince her. One other thing about that whole alleged story that bothers me is that two young women are being manipulated by a man and (maybe ultimately convinced by) their baby brother. In other words, Sansa’s finally getting something of agency and Arya, who’s had years of agency, is finally getting her home, and two males are going to make it right? If that’s what happens, it’s pretty lazy of D&D to resort to the old stereotypes. Maybe last season was a one-off, a sop to female fans. I hope not.
That is not how people in this sort of world would view claims. Targaryen supporters (including the Targaryens) would view the Baratheons as having stolen something that is not theirs: hence the word “usurper.” We need only look to our own histories to see many examples of this. By the same token, people supporting the Baratheon claim would know full well that the Targaryens and any supporters that they had took this view. They therefore would assume that if Targaryen scions were at all moral (“honorable” in their lingo), then they would be doing everything in their power to reclaim the throne: because it is the “right” thing for them to do, and it is what they would be doing in their place. The modern idea that the Targ supporters should “see the error of their ways” is a complete anachronism.
Another way we really see this is in the different esteem people hold Selmy and Jaime. Selmy defended a deranged and corrupt ruler to the (near) end, but is lionized for it. Jaime switched sides and effectively joined the rebel cause: and is derided by those rebels as a man lacking any honor.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
“In other words, Sansa’s finally getting something of agency and Arya, who’s had years of agency, is finally getting her home, and two males are going to make it right? If that’s what happens, it’s pretty lazy of D&D to resort to the old stereotypes.”
Speak of stereotypes, both an evil manipulator and a clairvoyant savior were mostly female roles in a traditional mythology, so giving those roles to mail characters (and conflict to female protagonists) already works as gender reverse. So, let’s not jump into rant about resorting old stereotypes before we see how it plays, OK?
Inga,
To this, I would add: we need to add “agency” to the list of words including “irony,” “theory” and “logical” that people use incorrectly all of the time…. 😀
It is unfortunate that a set of stories that derive so much from the concept of “morally gray” and “moral contradiction” nevertheless has so many fans trying to interpret things in terms of absolutes! All murder is homicide, but not all homicide is murder. Here is a true statement: Arya killed Walder Frey. Here are three statements that describe that with three different “moral” spins:
1. Arya Murdered Walder Frey
2. Arya Euthanized Walder Frey
3. Arya Executed Walder Frey.
All of these are true and none of them are true, depending on what you feel about Walder Frey. But in terms of understanding Arya Stark (which is important, as she is a big chunk of the story), we need to ask: which of these three does Arya check?
Wimsey,
Targ supporters will say we have the right to rule and Baratheons would be same. As a neutral, it’s simply Baratheons took it (yes Robert based it partially on Targ blood) but he took it by conquest. Same way Dany would have. Our claim is better than yours or rightful heir tothe IT is not really an accurate. You can have a claim but at the end it means little because you need an army to do it.
Hahaha 😀
Yep, I mentioned something similar in the next article! Would be really comical if it played out that way 😉
Stark Raven’ Rad,
The Dany/Jon debate is even worse than the Dany/Stannis debate!
i don’t think is a stereotype . The lone wolf dies but the pack survives! House Stark’s downfall started when they were separated . Now the Starks are back (at least what’s left of them) .They will bring down the one who started everything ( Arryn’s death, Lysa’s letter) as a pack , their gender has nothing to do with it. Also Bran was always the one everyone loved, the sweetest of the siblings and he is connected to the North and the Stark roots more than anyone .It makes sense for him to unite the pack.
dragonbringer,
When he came to NW, Jeor to liking to him judging purely for the show. Not because he was Ned’s son. He saw potential in Jon, in KITN coronation true part of it but most of all it was about his actions. same as it will be if he ever sits on the iron chair. People in the North cares for Ned unlike with Rhaegar at least in the show it seems that way. Not because he has Rhaegar’s blood. How is this going to play the role when they’ve ben overthrown, nobody would care apart from Dany that Jon is Rhaegar’s son. Who knows if she’s even alive at the end of battle.
His parentage is not important for IT but for prophecy, why do you think they included Dawn with blood while we saw that scene? As George writes abourt humand emotions, Jon’s dilemma abou not being a Stark or even Ned’s son. Also, just like it won’t serve to bring Jon and Dany together, but it might separate them.
Inga,
Her being the stereotypical woman in love isn’t a sacrifice. It’s sexist. To believe that Dany who has had to make her way on her own would turn into a dumb love struck girl is ridiculous. Like I said I can guarantee they won’t write her that way.
illinidiva,
This in reply to your comment at 9.04pm, 19.11.2016 (yesterday).
“Absolute monarcy” didn’t arise in Europe until the 17th century. Think Louis XIV of France. Before that, medieval and early modern era monarchs always had to be wary of the nobles. The crown didn’t have a standing “national” army, just their own family army supplemented by the armies of whatever nobles they could persuade to be on their side. Feodalism and its remnants.
Magna Carta (1215), so treasured by the English, is an assertion of this. That the king had to listen to the nobles “in parliament”, which directly leads to the present unwritten constitution that sovereignty rests with the Crown as expressed and exercised by His/Her Royal Highness’s Parliament in Westminster.
Another example of medieval kings not having absolute power is the Scottish Declaration of Arbroath (1320) (which, some say, was an inspiration for the USA’s Declaration of Independence), which states that sovereignty rests with the people of Scotland, who have the right to remove a monarch who doesn’t respect their settled will. Originally “people” of course only meant the nobles, not the “smallfolk”, but this idea of the sovereignty of the people, now in the broader sense of any citizen, has been tested in courts even in the 20th century and upheld. So you can see why the differing constitutional philosophies of the two constituent parts of the United Kingdom, Scotland and England (incorporating Wales and (Northern) Ireland), are conflicting and why disagreements might rise.
The King of Scots James VI also inherited the English throne and became James I, King of England in 1603 because his grandfather was a king of England, and after Queen Elizabeth I of England died childless, he was the nearest (male) relative. He promply moved down south, forgot all about Scotland, chased “witches” and Catholics, and his son Charles I quite liked the idea of absolute monarchy, as exemplified in France at the time.
Well, the English weren’t having none of that. They chopped off Charles I’s head and there was an English civil war, Royalists vs. Parlamentarians, with plenty of religious bigotry thrown in.
The Scots didn’t like the idea of their king’s head chopped off by the English, which lead to a series of “Jacobite” uprisings for the next nearly 100 years.
By 1707 , most Scottish nobles and clan leaders were offered enough money, titles, lands and honours by the English government that they decided to sell their country, for the priviledge of becoming UK nobs and having a place in the London high society. The “Articles of Union” saw plenty of public riots in Edinburgh, Glasgow and all around Scotland, but whit can ya do, the nobs ruled. Parcels of rogues, as Rabbie Burns put it.
“Bonnie” Prince Charlie’s rebellion in 1745 was a desperate last attempt to hold on to Scottish people’s sovereignty and old Scottish ways, and a callous attempt by the Stuart heir (who was a Catholic while Scots were mostly quite puritanical reformists) to claim the throne. He didn’t care about Scotland, he wanted the English/UK throne, which he saw as his by right, instead of his German cousins.
The present Queen is a descendant of the German cousins twice over. George I was a German Prince brought over because he was a Protestant, unlike the more direct Stuart heirs who’d reverted into Catholicism; and later Queen Victoria married a German Prince. Even the name of their house was Saxe-Coburgh und Gotha until a monarch changed it into “Windsor” during WW I to hide the German ancestry.
All very confused, no right or wrong anywhere. A bit like GoT, aye?
Absolute monarchy didn’t arise in European history until the 17th century. Westeros politics seems to be more feodal. Even Aegon the Conqueror and subsequent Targaryen rulers had to rely on powerful houses (=feodalism).
If Dany wants to “break the wheel”, is it to abolish feodalism and introduce centralized, absolute royal rule? Not very progressive. Or would she grant a say to at least the prosperous merchants and craftspeople (=emerging middle class) and truly break the wheel?
It’s fine and dandy giving wonderful speeches among your own class or to followers who worship you, it’s a different thing to actually deliver and do something to inspire continued support from the masses.
I trust D&D to write Dany in a way that these questions are addressed and everything builds up to S8 and the story’s end. That it isn’t all about draaaggooonnnzz!
Jon, of course, faces a similar dilemma, though from a different point of view. He’s never had any legitimacy but has worked his way up on his merit. KitN, based on his Ned’s Stark blood as proclaimed by Lady Lyanna Mormont is actually false. But his selfless leadership was not false. That’s why he was acclaimed KitN.
Aayaayaay! I love GoT for being a grey mess instead of a simple black/white, good/bad thingy. By now even the good guys have done bad things, and the bad guys have done good things.
Maybe it doesn’t fit the mindset of some fans who want their good guys to be good and their bad guys to be bad all the time.
Aplologies for the overly long post.
Geralt of Rivia,
Well if all the evidence points one way there has to be some explanation for it. I am a fan of both Jon and Dany but if this is a political alliance what does Jon have to offer? In that situation it wouldn’t make any sense at all for Jon to come out ahead. If it’s about love, mutual respect, and admiration then neither will be marginalized. If they are to get together and they are then I vote for a loving relationship where both are equal. But I don’t see a happy ending like that.
Hursta1,
OK, let it be sexist: I won’t argue. I jut wonder what would be your non-sexist hyper-progressive scenario? Dany becoming a younger and more beautiful version of Cersei fixed on the Iron Throne and burning all and everyone around? And that will be inevitable, if she fails to find something more important than power (be it Jon, or her country, or her dragon children, or whatever), because power corrupts and develops an unhealthy addiction.
Hursta1,
Correction to my earlier rant.
If you vote for a loving relationship where both are equal, please, take into account that I vote for that too. And I can understand why it is hard for you to “see a happy ending like that”: GoT has taught us to expect the worst. But on the other hand, there were examples of “happy endings” in real history: maybe, not so many, but still… So, why wouldn’t GoT give us one pleasant surprise of the main characters surviving? Of course, they will have to figure out how to pay back the loan to the Iron Bank, and struggling with that burden could be bitter enough to balance the sweetness of love between equals. So, let’s hope, and hope dies the last.
Well said, Inga.
There are so many “fans” of either one, who get all het up about any suggestion, speculation or scenario that doesn’t have their particular favourite as the one true hero (TM).
They kinda miss the whole point of this saga. As envisioned by GRRM and D&D, who’re following his lead.
I love GoT, which means I love all the characters. Hell, I even loved Joffrey! (In the “love to hate” kind of way.) They’re all pieces of the whole. I love how the pieces might come together one day. The show will give it to us, GRRM takes his own sweet time to reveal the one true story (TM), if he ever will.
I only have one truly favourite character, and I know he’s probably going to die (book&show), and I’ve made my peace with that. If he survives, he won’t come out smelling of roses and generally acclaimed and loved. I’m a bit miffed the show has made him worse than he is in the books but I don’t get into a lather about it. He’s not that important in the grand scheme of things.
Most of all, I’m into GoT, in for the ride. This amazing flight of imagination and fancy that is also a mirror of our planet’s humanity, if we care to look.
talvikorppi,
You gave a pretty good summary of an English-Scottish history. Just a few remarks regarding the concept of the absolute monarchy. Of course, Louis XIV of France was the most classical manifestation of the absolute monarchy, and there is a bit of discussion between historians on whether the terms of the absolute monarchy can be applied to other countries, because like 2/3 of Europe (including the Kingdom of Sweden) came nowhere near the level of the French absolutism. But in general, there is a consensus that intensive centralization of medieval states and power concentration in the hands of kings and princes (basically the development of the very concept of a sovereign state with its exclusive rights to exercise power) which occurred throughout Europe roughly through the 15th century wa one of the markers of the end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Early Modern Times. But as I have written before, the Early Modern Times featured the general trend of moving towards absolutism, rather than democracy. Of course, it differed from country to country, and different forms of parliamentarism developed simultaneously, but in that period parliaments which promoted a broader representation of the public through the 3-estate model or otherwise were tools of strengthening monarchy against the top-level nobility which was it’s primary competitor and problem. And GoT features the same process basically: great houses destroy one another in the bloody feud, while the rise of the external enemy (WW) call for centralization/unification under one publicly recognized leader (or a leader-couple).
talvikorppi,
Well said, too. And can you imagine something like Davos and Tyrion, or even better Tormund and Grey Worm starting a debate over Jon vs Dany and which of them should lead? What a fun it would be – especially for the Night King.
Inga,
Ha! I like this speculation of what happens to Westeros after.
I come from a country that was “crusaded” by the Swedes (former Vikings who’d become Christians) in the 12th century. Made a part of the Swedish realm but never quite conquered because we hadn’t quite conquered our land. Most of it was wilderness.
Later on, our “Easterland” was a big, huge, important part of the Swedish realm. Important enough to send plenty of nobs to the Swedish Diet, a kind of pre-democracy parliament. Later the Diet admitted the four estates: nobs, clergy, burghers (rich town merchants) and farmers (the ones who actually owned their land, not oiks who only rented).
Before the four estates Diet, the Swedish king Gustav Wasa (1523-1560) actually effected absolute monarchy in Sweden-Finland. He also zealously pursued the reformation of the church and the protestant religion because it provided the Crown with a way of seizing all church property (rich monasteries etc.).
Reformation was fairly easy in my country. We were barely Christian, smallfolk still worshipped the old gods alongside the new (Christian) ones. Nobody gave a f*** when the new gods had to be worshipped in a different way. The reformed way suited our national psyche better, anyway. No nonsense, straight and honest, poor but with dignity, even the rich nobs were humble.
Can’t wait to see the Arya, Sansa and Bran reunite. I wonder who will have the closer bond? The sisters or Bran with one of his sisters?
Glad the Sansa Pregnancy debate is at a end, not that I ever believed it. Can’t believe this all started because in one scene Sophie was bloated and everyone jumped on the pregnant train. It’s like the paparazzi magazines when if a celebrity isn’t completely flat in the belly their obviously pregnant lol
Hursta1,
Leaks spoilers.
What does have to offer? How about the North and his knowledge of white walkers? Dany’s allies seems to be getting short and judging by spoilers and leaks basically Dothraki and maybe unsullied will be left. Tyrells are done, Dorne basically just like them. Jon knows about white walkers and he could help them. Conventional warfare ain’t gonna win them war.
Would Dany share something because in the show unlike books seems all about power and judging by spoiler she has Jon wrapped out around her finger like basically everybody else.
talvikorppi,
I know Finish (and Swedish) history quite well (waiving to you from from Lithuania). We shared a lot of similarities throughout the centuries, and even the same monarch (Sigismund III Vasa) once. As you have probably heard my country (the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth since 1569) had elected monarchs and total parliamentarism since 1572/1573 and ended up wiped off from the political map by the end of 18th century primarily because this kind of democracy made it an easy prey for the neighboring absolute (or nearly absolute) monarchies, including Sweden (I mean our 17th century wars). Therefore, I become highly skeptical every time I hear GOT fandom requesting democracy for Westeros. You need a well established nationalism (realization of the common fate and interests) to make democracy work, and as for the Seven Kingdoms it would be even more disastrous that it was for the Polish-Lithuanian Comonwealth, which included only two. To make some sort of transition to democracy, the Seven Kingdoms must first become one on the emotional level, not only formally. That would requires strong and compelling leadership, that would require common victories, etc. So, that’s why I made the point about the need of some sort of enlightened absolutism prior to democracy, if that comes into play at all.
Inga,
In the books, they have both have had thoughts of each other, where they would lay aside their differences and hug each other. But there is still an unresolved event between them… Arya will (presumedly) have Nymeria with her… and that will remind Sansa that Lady died ‘because’ of Nymeria’s actions. Of course, if Sansa had told the truth about Joffrey Baratheon…
talvikorppi,
Well said!
“The kids [Sansa, Arya, and Bran] are a huge part of the story, in many ways the central part of the story. And I always intended to separate them and set them on their own paths.” – GRRM
Jon and Dany are not the main characters , they are two of the main characters (Tyrion,Jon,Dany Bran,Arya,Sansa ,the “big six”). People asked GRRM to make movies about only Jon and Dany and he said that if that happens you miss 90% of the story!! Dany didn’t defeat those who fought against her family , they killed each other during a war that had nothing to do with her .Jon becoming king was the result of the War of the five Kings!!! For 6 season the main theme was the WOTFK , now the war has ended and for the last 13 episodes the main theme will be the Long Night . Just because Jon is a Targ and Dany has dragons doesn’t mean that the story is about them. Got and ASOIAF are focusing on the characters and their journey not the “good vs evil” story and the magic elements . Just because Rhaeghar said : “he is the song of ice and fire ” doesn’t mean the story is only about Jon .Rhaeghar was wrong twice , first he thought he was the prince that was promised and then he thought it was Aegon.Mel was wrong too. And it’s never confirmed that the song was about a person.The Children and the first men fought with dragonglass against the WW long before the Targs or the Valyrians. The song probably means fire vs ice, dragons vs WW or the balance between opposites . Actually it is clear that the most important person (Long night storyline) is Bran .
” The night’s watch can’t stop them , kings and all their armies can’t stop them…”. The story balances between fantasy and reality . The story it’s not the song ,the story is the people who “dance” at the song’s tune!!!
Thing is Sansa did backup Arya’s version to her father in the book, yet they omit that and they omit Sansa disobeying Ned to say good bye to the Queen and Joffry which got her as a hostage.
We find out about it through Cersei to Tyrion.
I think in show the omissions are because age was a factor, hence Ned telling Arya Sansa has to take Joffry’s side right or wrong, Joffry and Arya together put Sansa in a bad position and her choice was met with her wolf being killed, though Ned could have sent the wolf home, but his honor code forbids it.
Heck, age shouldn’t excuse Sansa: TV Stark kids are older. But Arya, Bran and prolly Ricken wouldnt have put their dad in that situation, they had common sense and loyalty. Show should have been more honest about sansa from the git go.
Hey Wimsey, euthanasia’s not involved: she didn’t put Fray out of his misery from mercy. Murderer doesn’t apply because he’s no victim but a boastful mass-murderer. Executioner, nope. The law won’t touch him and she’s not authorized to. She’s a warrior vigilante Her list is revenge and punishment on behalf family and innocents like Harinhall torture victims, Gendry etc. Prolly the truest statement is “Arya avenged the injustice of the massacre of her family and army by killing Walder Fray and two sons.” Cuz Arya overheard a Fray soldier mouthing off that Loathar and Black Walder killed Catlyn, they deserved it too. Fray pies were payback for Frays’ violating guests right.
They Freys did like to boast about their crimes !Walder Frey felt as great as Aegon the Conquer just because he killed a bunch of people at a dinner ! Stupid Freys with their stupid hats (the hats alone is a good reason for me to want them dead!)
Arya Serious,
I always thought that Ramsey was referring to the fact that he probably carved up sansa’s body