The Starks head to Belfast and Game of Thrones films in the woods

Filming news continues to be something of a mixed bag this month. Actors are filtering in and out of Northern Ireland, with the latest sightings providing hints and teases as to what’s to come.

While in Belfast this week, fans ran into Maisie Williams, Isaac Hempstead Wright and David Bradley. This is the second time Bradley has been spotted back in the city this filming season; he was also photographed with a fan there back in August.

David was still in town yesterday, recognized by a fan for his Harry Potter role and not so much for his work as the dastardly Walder Frey.

Yesterday, Maisie shared this pic of her with Sophie Turner, commenting, “Looking for a repeat of this night on Friday. @sophiet.” So it looks like the Stark girls are headed for a reunion- in real life, anyway.

https://instagram.com/p/9tYv6PnqmY


As for where they’ve been filming lately, it seems Game of Thrones has been all over the place in Northern Ireland with shooting at Titanic Studios, rumored filming at Shane’s Castle, and a return to Magheramorne Quarry. There’s also local filming in the forest, according to location photos posted by a Game of Thrones special effects makeup artist on Instagram.

The new photos show woodsy areas covered in fake snow and the smoke that creates the foggy atmospheric look for many scenes.

https://instagram.com/p/9tCgZfI-eR

https://instagram.com/p/9tEOwMo-RN

So there you have it. Walder’s back in town, along with the Stark kids and we’re getting some snowy-woods action. The frosty woods are similar to the ones of the North we’ve seen before but with winter coming, it’s harder to predict where exactly this scene will take place.

224 responses

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    1. Always nice to be the first comment, walker Frey and a scene happening in the woods, must be a very creepy scene going on 🙂 hype level at its max and the first Trailer didn’t even happen yet.

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    2. Matthew The Dragon Knight:
      Always nice to be the first comment, walker Frey and a scene happening in the woods, must be a very creepy scene going on hype level at its max and the first Trailer didn’t even happen yet. Second comment XD

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    3. The girl in between Isaac and Maisie (first pic) kind of looks like Jennifer Lawrence.

      Btw, I’m surprised you didn’t post the pic of Kit, Sophie and Liam at the bar (or what appears to be a bar). Now THAT pic gets me hyped.

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    4. RosanaZugey:

      Btw, I’m surprised you didn’t post the pic of Kit, Sophie and Liam at the bar (or what appears to be a bar). Now THAT pic gets me hyped.

      Recent picture? I didn’t know that Kit is in Belfast. I heard about Sophie, Alfie and Liam hanging around. Or isn’t it older photo from their wrap up party, after they finished filming of that battle sequence.

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    5. Geralt of Rivia: Recent picture? Or is it from that wrap up party after they finished their filming of that battle sequence?

      I just saw this pic last night. How recent it is, I’m not sure. Its just the three of them (with like..teenagers sitting on the side). Liam’s talking and Sophie and Kit are listening. I saw it on Tumblr. I saved the pic itself, but I didn’t save the link to the blog post. Let me see about finding it…

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    6. Season 6 is going to be epic!

      Rickon is back, Walder Frey is back, Dany is back with the dothrakis, Tyrion and Varys will rule a city together again, Cersei’s revenge will be awesome, and of course

      Jon is finally released from his vows and will come back as a Stark leader in the North…

      I’ve never been that excited for a season!! This will be amazing!

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    7. James Rivers,

      you mean the White Walker hype train? Because I’d guess that way before some other hype train.

      Maybe a rural Winterfell or near the Wall hype train. Dunno. Goddamn winter, complicatin’ things.

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    8. I’m believing more and more that this is going to be more like a transition season, like a combination of what season 5 left out, some invented plots and some things from TWOW. Why?

      Margeary being released in the middle of the season with jaime in KL seems like an invented plot to extend this storyline, the extension in Arya’s storyline with the troupe band, jaime in RL, the Iron Islands, the extension of Dany’s travel with dothraki,etc. Plus that big battle which would seem as a big spoiler from Twow but I dont think it will go the exactly same way as in Twow.

      I’m not complaining, I think its ok but some storylines like Jon’s, Dany’s, Cersei’s or Tyrion who have already reached their counterparts will either have an invented plot with nothing to do or an extension of their Twow plot.

      Just speculating, Im probably wrong.

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    9. LordGriffith: I’m not complaining, I think its ok but some storylines like Jon’s, Dany’s, Cersei’s or Tyrion who have already reached their counterparts will either have an invented plot with nothing to do or an extension of their Twow plot

      Why are you assuming that? HBO has no reasons to stop adapting the books, they will go on until the story is told.

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    10. Moka,

      Late January, I think? If this season is gonna premiere a bit late, I wouldn’t hold out hope until early February. I may be wrong, but I’d rather be surprised than disappointed.

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    11. RosanaZugey,

      Then you could simply post a picture that you saved for yourself. You might not find that link.

      EDIT: Nice find. 😉 Well, it looks like some new picture, because of what is Kit wearing. At the wrap up party he wear liek some T-shirt or what.

      Moosse Bolton,

      If there is a snowy like conditions in Riverlands. In this case, LSH train seems to be on track. However, I would bet on something that concerns the North, but that doesn’t mean no LSH. I’m convinced more than ever.

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    12. Moosse Bolton,

      You can’t think of any other snowy forest location that would require prothestic makeup….

      Really? lol

      Guys if LSH were to happen, wouldn’t SOMETHING of Michelle Fairley leak

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    13. Making the 8:
      The late Walder Frey!!!

      It is looking more and more likely that Walder will die.

      [quote] Hopefully Arya will kill him – the ‘gun has been hung’ after she witnessed the Red Wedding. [/quote]

      So excited for the next season!

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    14. Moka: Why are you assuming that? HBO has no reasons to stop adapting the books, they will go on until the story is told.

      People love to assume, good things, bad. I wouldn’t let it bother you much, a lot of assumptions will be made by the time the first episode airs loo

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    15. Matt,

      Fog and rain barely shows on film. When simulating rain, they have to shower the set, really, REALLY hard (something the actors often complain about, understandably). The same goes for fog. They’ve gotta pump it out non-stop so that it registers on-screen properly and gives the place an atmospheric sense, especially in winter scenes.

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    16. Moosse Bolton,

      Geralt of Rivia,

      Any time a forest scene is being filmed, there’s always a few people who say “It’s gotta be LSH!”, despite this being a show chock-full of forest scenes. I really don’t get it. Also, wasn’t LSH’s lair in a cave, not a forest, anyway?

      As for why a special effects makeup artist would be involved in such a scene, there are a hundred possible reasons, including the most obvious; there’s gonna be a fight scene, and someone’s gonna need fake injuries.

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    17. Matthew The Dragon Knight: People love to assume, good things, bad. I wouldn’t let it bother you much, a lot of assumptions will be made by the time the first episode airs loo

      There’s no need to wait for the first episode of s6 to realise that it’s wrong. A lot of things in season 5 (concerning Stannis, Hardhome, Tyrion, Myrcella…) proved that HBO is not waiting for the TWOW book release to tell the story. HBO is not going to “invent stories” where the main characters have “nothing to do” just because they would not want to surpass the books. They already surpassed it and season 6 will go even further…

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    18. Luka Nieto: Literally any time a forest scene is being filmed since season three, people have been screaming “It’s gotta be LSH!”, despite this being a show chock-full of forest scenes and that… you know, in the books LSH is in a cave, not a forest per se. I really don’t get it.

      Haha, that’s right! I don’t get the hype for LSH. Maybe in s3 or s4 it would have been good as a counterpart for the RW, but now it’s long gone, there’s no need for LSH. Revenge will be served by other characters and it’s far better.

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    19. “Noone can mess with Walder Frey”, as Coldplay so well put it. Well, let’s hope Jaqen can…
      Off topic, I have got today my Watchers on the Wall T-shirts and shorties and I still feel a drunken elation: I finally have my uniform so that I might be (more) part of the gang!

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    20. Moka,

      Nothing wrong with Added book content and original content, I’m not complaining. Let them tell the story, I just want to watch the new season.
      Besides some events they didn’t skip, I read somewhere that they said just because we skipped over something doesn’t mean it won’t be added later, and there are scenes and maybe characters they can add to future seasons. Very interesting read that was, wish I could find that article again.

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    21. Ross:
      RosanaZugey,

      I think you’re owed a nickel ?

      Lol. I wish she had said something higher than a nickel. ? Sucks that it’s not recent. More than sucks, as that pic had me on the hype train last night. Although, with where their storylines seem to be going this year, I’m expecting the 3 of them to interact this year anyways, so not all is lost I suppose.

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    22. Ser Richard Reepins,

      Ser Richard Reepins,

      The Stannis debacle was the result of Shireen not being his daughter but Davos’s. Of course Melisandre should have known that being a witch. If she has the power to bring Jon Snow back from being deader than dead, then she could perhaps resurect Theon’s bone scepter and get another player into the Games.

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    23. Matthew The Dragon Knight:
      Anyone else is over hyped for the trailer ?

      Not yet ! ^^
      We wont get anything until February…
      And that’s optimistic, considering the delay of the season and the likely shooting later down the year than usual.
      In the end, I’d say we should get our first trailer late February, early March at least…

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    24. Shy Lady Dragon,

      The shirts are cool! Aw we are all kind of a gang of fanatics huh? 🙂 When I received the WotW shirt it was a tad too small so I cut off the sleeves for my dog to wear it lol I managed to order another shirt for myself though.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Moka,

      Shame. 🙁

      Stark reunion involving Jon, Rickon and Sansa will happen one way or another. We still might get Jon, Sansa and Davos scene or more. It would have been nice if that pic was actual.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Oh and I’m so excited for the foggy/smokey woods scene whatever it may be. That kind of atmosphere is what I loved about the opening scene from s01ep01. So spooky.

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    27. HelloThere,

      Well, she lives in Belfast, so if someone spotted her (which I’m sure has happened dozens of times), it wouldn’t be relevant at all.
      Luka Nieto,

      The hype comes more from the Special effects makeup artist rather than the forest. What’s more, if you recall,

      she does hang a bunch of people (who may or may not include a certain Frey) in the forest.

      It could also be the White Walkers, true, but what for ? A forest suggests something North of the Wall, but not as far as the Lands of Always Winter, and I can’t think of anything interesting happening North of the Wall (except maybe for the women at Craster’s Keep or something ?).
      Anyway, I find

      LSH

      way more likely.

        Quote  Reply

    28. Arkash,

      The season isn’t being delayed by much, what is it two weeks ?
      Besides filming should end around December like it always does i believe ?
      So the trailer shouldn’t be out no lager then January, sometime February the latest, I strongly Doubt March will be a time they release the first trailer.

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    29. Arkash: Not yet ! ^^
      We wont get anything until February…
      And that’s optimistic, considering the delay of the season and the likely shooting later down the year than usual.
      In the end, I’d say we should get our first trailer late February, early March at least…

      Which reminds me, do you guys think they’ll do the IMAX presentations again? To see Hardhome in an IMAX would be amazing! Although, if they do it again, and premier the trailer at the end, I hope its a good trailer. I felt like the first trailer wasn’t all that great last year. It wasn’t until the Apple event trailer that I truly felt like they were putting out something worth getting excited about.

      Matter of fact, I just hope the entire promotional stuff is better this year. Don’t give us anymore “The Site” nonsense. Just give us straight previews. And PLEASE…for the love of everything Holy…don’t do another “Daenerys gives some line about how she’s going to rule like a badass and fuck everyone’s shit up,” nonsense. *Rolls eyes* That crap is tired already.

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    30. Frey and Arya….. maybe the building with the bridge was the twins??
      I think τηε season end will be something shocking at Riverlands, wolves killing brutally frey’s?? Maybe a RW2 ? Jaime and Brienne with them?
      I was thinking about North…maybe it’s just me…. but i don’t believe LF will leave Sansa give Jon anything…. if she still listens to him…. i really like Sansa but until she kills him, LF will be the player and she will be pawn.
      Sansa was always more like Cat, even though she knew were Jon was , she never felt she had to try to be with him. Arya seeing Jon would be a big loving moment. Unless by the time the meet they would be both creatures with no emotion.

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    31. Moosse Bolton,

      My biggest argument against LSH is that.. wouldn’t a big portion of the audience react negatively to BOTH Jon and Catelyn being resurrected in the same season? I just don’t know how a lot of people would take it.

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    32. Anguissette1979: We New Englanders know that Winter is Coming (soon) and what that looks like!

      We midwesterners also know that Winter is Coming, and we also know what real Winter looks like. 😀 Not teeny tiny snowflakes artfully falling on expert hairstyles all the time, lol! 😀

      O/T: for the Star Wars fans here, the new Japanese trailer of The Force Awakens. Some new footage (BB8 is adorable).
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdAUiyeJMFQ

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    33. Maggie:
      I was thinking about North…maybe it’s just me…. but i don’t believe LF will leave Sansa give Jon anything…. if she still listens to him…. i really like Sansa but until she kills him, LF will be the player and she will be pawn.

      Question (for everyone. I just quote you because your comment made me think of it):

      Where does Petyr even fit into Sansa’s story anymore? IF all of the spoilers reported lead to a Stark reunion and/or a retaking of Winterfell and the North by House Stark…why does she need him anymore? Where does he fit in her story? She doesn’t NEED to leave with him because she’s safe in her own house…in her own Kingdom…with her own family. She doesn’t need his protection, she doesn’t share his aspirations…and after he purposely married her off to be raped and abused by a psychopath, I’m not sure she’s willing to invest anymore of herself in any of his “ideas”. So…where does he fit? And without Sansa, why is he important anymore? Does HE die this season?

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    34. Shy Lady Dragon:
      “Noone can mess with Walder Frey”, as Coldplay so well put it. Well, let’s hope Jaqen can…
      Off topic, I have got today my Watchers on the Wall T-shirts and shorties and I still feel a drunken elation: I finally have my uniform so that I might be (more) part of the gang!

      We just started to turn a bit chilly at night, so I have been wearing my WotW Tee shirt to bed. I bought them X Large for that reason. Aren’t they so soft? Love them.

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    35. Moosse Bolton,

      Omg,there is not going to be any Lady Stoneheart,enough with that shit . And yes,i did not bother to put it into spoiler marks because by now everyone has been spoiled by it anyway which only furthers her uselessness in the story,nobody is going to be shocked,nobody is going to think she’s cool,and last but not least nobody is going to care .

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    36. heh, with the Round Things in back of him, Bradley looks like he’s reprising his role as William Hartnell (a.k.a., The First Doctor).

      I love the round things…..

      Seriously, we’ve just got to get this guy into Star Wars…..

      LordGriffith: like a combination of what season 5 left out, some invented plots and some things from TWOW. Why?

      Well, it’s mostly going to be Winter. It looks like they might take some of plot from Crows and integrate it into the Winter story (Jaime in the Riverlands), and they are giving us the Kingsmoot presumably as a setup for what the Iron Born do in Winter. They also have flip-flopped some of Arya’s Winter and Dragons material: she’s already done “Mercy” from Winter it seems, but they have postponed Blind Beth until this year. (My bet:

      Blind Beth sets up Arya warging, and that will be relevant to her Winter storyline.)

      Sansa’ almost certainly is having her Vale plot cut: but I would bet that they are going to tell her part of the Winter story with her in the North instead of in the Vale.

      After that, Jon’s, Daeny’s, Bran’s, Cersei’s and Sam’s stuff will be straight-up Winter.

      I doubt that there will be any “inventions” of any sort, although I do expect that the book plots (where were written for a novel, not a TV show) will be adapted to work for TV where a novel plot would not work.

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    37. HelloThere,

      If I recall correctly, around a month ago someone posted a comment about seeing where someone on twitter claimed they saw her and another “dead” cast member together in Ireland but no photographic evidence was presented by said witness so it was disregarded.

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    38. HelloThere,

      I also believe that it’s a bad decision to reverse the order of the two resurrection reveals, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not going to happen. In your experience, do you think D&D are incapable of making such bad moves ? Anyway, even if it doesn’t happen at the right moment, better late than never.

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    39. Hi guys, I’m new here. I’ve been looking at all of the spoilers posted here, on WIC, Reddit and Twitter since back when S5 was in it’s last month of filming and I just thought I’d drop in and leave a comment for once.

      As for the LSH Hype train, I wouldn’t bet on it. There have continuously been sightings of Fairley in Belfast every season since she died, although I do remember seeing a tweet about a month or two back with a picture of her and Kit on a train / subway that claimed it was recent and taken in Belfast. Although, for all we know it could easily have been (and probably is) from earlier years. Like another person above, it was posted on tumblr and was also put on a forum I regularly visit. So I will try to grab it when I wake up in the morning (it’s quite late into the night for me).

      Back to topic, The likelihood is that this is just a scene set in the North and has no association with the Riverlands as it has yet to begin snowing there.

      In regards to Walder, who’s to say he meets his end in S6? D&D are leaving this stuff quite late into the season from what I’ve seen / heard; it would only make sense to carry it into S7 and finish it all off then.

      I also highly doubt Arya will be in the Riverlands this season (It may have just been a rumour) and if she is, it would have to be her arrival and not much else. Maisie was seen filming on the Braavos set for episodes 7-8, so the probability of her sailing halfway across the world and somehow managing to kill Walder in the space of two episodes is very little.

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    40. Kay,

      I don’t what to make of Kylo’s lightsaber. I’m a big fan of his mask sort of a nod to Darth Vader. Otherwise the look on her face is telling, but I just hope Kylo and Rey are not bro and sister or anything like this. Still can’t figured it out who is that pearson Rey is crying over. I’ve seen some Sherlock Holmes stuff on the internet and the way people try to analyze every single thing. Han, Chewie or even Finn. I’m really curious about Luke’s role in the first episode.

      Moosse Bolton,

      It might be something in the North, but heck the possibility of LSH is just so tasty. I think that to resurrect Jon and Cat would be great idea. To sort of a measure consequeces of resurrection. It’s the only thing which would make this season absolutely perfect.

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    41. RosanaZugey,

      I think we will get an Imax presentation, but if we do I think it’s the last two episodes not three, well unless they change it XD
      but that would be a great time to premier a trailer for season 6. We will have to wait and see if they will do it again, from what I can remember it was pretty successful last time, so I don’t see why not.

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    42. RosanaZugey: She doesn’t need his protection, she doesn’t share his aspirations…and after he purposely married her off to be raped and abused by a psychopath,

      That statement is not entirely true! LF purposely married Sansa off to someone who turned out to be a psychopath: but LF did not know that. Remember, LF is not omniscient, only well-informed: and the Boltons are very good at keeping secrets. Moreover, LF really is very well-informed only about stuff that one can learn in Kings Landing, where his spy network and brothels keep him very well-informed indeed. As both show and books make plain, the north is a bit of a mystery to the Southerners: the northerners are widely spread out, have a very different culture, and simply do not interact too much with the lower 6 kingdoms. And the Boltons managed to keep Ramsay secret from Ned Stark (who certainly would not have tolerated that in his “duchy.”)

      But, as to where LF fits into Sansa’s part of the story, well, one of the big mysteries of the series is: what is LF’s role? I think that we can safely dismiss the old idea that he’s actually working for the White Walkers. I think that we can also dismiss the old idea that he’s harboring Rhaegar’s long-lost son and hoping to restore the Targaryeans:

      it turns out that it was Varys doing that.

      Those were the two most popular pre-Crows ideas that I remember, and I have not seen any good ones arise since then.

      But in a lot of ways, Littlefinger is the Severus Snape of Game of Thrones.

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    43. Moosse Bolton: Anyway, even if it doesn’t happen at the right moment, better late than never.

      Actually, not-at-all would be better than too-late. Now, I’m not sure when “too late” would be for LSH, but I do know that anytime before the tail end of last year was too early. And as I am increasingly doubting that she’ll affect the storyline of any of the really important characters, I am beginning to think that “not at all” is the best solution.

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    44. Moka: There’s no need to wait for the first episode of s6 to realise that it’s wrong. A lot of things in season 5 (concerning Stannis, Hardhome, Tyrion, Myrcella…) proved that HBO is not waiting for the TWOW book release to tell the story. HBO is not going to “invent stories” where the main characters have “nothing to do” just because they would not want to surpass the books. They already surpassed it and season 6 will go even further…

      Wrong? No one knows yet what might be considered as “wrong”. Being an adaptation of the books, there may be differences, even Mr. Martin agreed to that. But we DO know that D & D KNOW what is going to happen to all major characters and the outcome of the Game. How they get there may be different, but they will end up in the same place. I see no “wrong doing” on the part of the show runners. I see them doing what they NEED to do to get a show out when the source material is not available. Seems to me if you have a beef, it is directed inaccurately. But that’s just me.

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    45. In regards to my post above, here is the picture I saw on Twitter around the end of September; https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPNT0TsWIAAQ6FF.jpg

      It was posted by several people, one of which claimed that it was taken in Belfast and was recent. Whether that is true remains to be seen; it could and probably is an older picture and just fans reaching for a single grain of truth among the mountain of rubbish that the more extreme LSH believers use to fuel their delusions.

      NOTE: I am not implying that anyone here is an extreme fan of LSH or is delusional. I merely wanted to use those unfortunate souls as an example.

      I honestly just want some damn closure on this whole ordeal so that this non-stop rollercoaster ride of trolling can stop.

      I will outright refuse to take any LSH related news as legitimate if she is not in S6, enough is enough; this is the one last point in time that she could appear.

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    46. And just because Littlefinger had a lot to do with Sansa recently doesn’t mean that his relevance is derivative of hers. He was far more important far earlier than Sansa, who is for some reason a human being (where everybody else is a character) to so many people. Littlefinger may die soon, but it won’t be for story purposes because he’s not part of Sansa’s arc anymore. He is central enough on his own terms. (All that said, they are intertwined through the mother, obviously, and as things have progressed the personal side of Littlefinger, if it really exists, has come more to the surface.)

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    47. This must be the scene where Stannis stumbles out of the forest a la the Black Knight, with no arms and one leg, pursued by Brienne who is yelling “Would you just DIE already?!?!”

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    48. HelloThere: I’ve long since given up trying to understand show LF and his mustache twirly evil schemes

      My bet is that, much like Severus Snape, there will be a simple explanation for his complex behavior. However, there has not been a Dumbledore to let me deduce exactly what that is. The key thing to remember is that this simple explanation has to cover everything from Jon Arryn’s assassination to his current machinations involving Sansa.

      Off-Topic Otto: And just because Littlefinger had a lot to do with Sansa recently doesn’t mean that his relevance is derivative of hers.

      Look at it this way: Sansa has nothing to do with why Littlefinger had Jon Arryn eliminated.

      JCDavis: Being an adaptation of the books, there may be differences, even Mr. Martin agreed to that.

      There is no “even” to that statement! GRRM has been very upfront that he wrote things for a novel, and that he would have done them differently had he been trying to do the same thing in a script. But GRRM also has been very adamant on the point that these are two tellings of the same stories.

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    49. Wimsey

      “But in a lot of ways, Littlefinger is the Severus Snape of Game of Thrones.”

      That is a bold statement, sir. From day one, I always felt something for Littlefinger. People around me think I am nuts….and as the seasons have unfurled, I have come to think they are right. Are you saying there are some redemption arcs coming for Littlefinger in your opinion? Does he see Cat in Sansa’s eyes? Has he been secretly trying to promote the welfare of Jon Snow all along? I would be interested to hear more of this oh seer of both worlds. BTW I am NOT being cheeky. You know what a fan I am of BOTH of these worlds. Nothing would please me more than to be able to say to my family…..”told ya so”. 😀

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    50. Pigeon:
      This must be the scene where Stannis stumbles out of the forest a la the Black Knight, with no arms and one leg, pursued by Brienne who is yelling “Would you just DIE already?!?!”

      Okay, you win. Best laugh so far today!! 🙂

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    51. Wimsey: That statement is not entirely true!LF purposely married Sansa off to someone who turned out to be a psychopath: but LF did not know that.Remember, LF is not omniscient, only well-informed: and the Boltons are very good at keeping secrets.Moreover, LF really is very well-informed only about stuff that one can learn in Kings Landing, where his spy network and brothels keep him very well-informed indeed.As both show and books make plain, the north is a bit of a mystery to the Southerners: the northerners are widely spread out, have a very different culture, and simply do not interact too much with the lower 6 kingdoms.And the Boltons managed to keep Ramsay secret from Ned Stark (who certainly would not have tolerated that in his “duchy.”)

      But, as to where LF fits into Sansa’s part of the story, well, one of the big mysteries of the series is: what is LF’s role?I think that we can safely dismiss the old idea that he’s actually working for the White Walkers.I think that we can also dismiss the old idea that he’s harboring Rhaegar’s long-lost son and hoping to restore the Targaryeans:

      Those were the two most popular pre-Crows ideas that I remember, and I have not seen any good ones arise since then.

      But in a lot of ways, Littlefinger is the Severus Snape of Game of Thrones.

      I’ve never actually read the books or watched any of the Harry Potter films so I don’t understand the reference. *Blushes* But, you bring up a better question in asking what Petyr’s role is in general. See, I’ve always assumed he either wanted the Iron Throne for himself, or he wanted to seat someone on the Iron Throne that he could control (and thus rule by proxy). Both of those theories involved Sansa. If she is no longer a willing party to his schemes, where does that leave him? And does he continue on with his schemes without her, or does he put his schemes on hold so he can try and get her to rejoin him?

      Also, I know there’s a debate about whether or not he knew Ramsay with a psychopath. I’ve enjoyed reading both sides of that argument, and depending on the day, I side with one side over the other. Today, I’m apparently on the, “He knew” side. 😉

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    52. Having seen him interviewed a few times, David Bradley is a really nice man. Yet he’s always playing villains. He is very good at it though.

        Quote  Reply

    53. JCDavis: Are you saying there are some redemption arcs coming for Littlefinger in your opinion?

      That is a good question. One thing that we do need to remember is that a lot of HP fans felt that Snape did not redeem himself: that essentially, he was unredeemable after his early acts. So, it is possible that LF will have a redemptive arc that not all of us will recognize as being redemptive.

      However, there is one big difference. Snape’s lesson for Harry was that, very early on, Snape essentially regretted and repented his actions: and Snape then had to live a life of subterfuge in order to fully atone for this. But Snape had been doing this for years before Harry came to Hogwarts.

      The big difference is that LF has no deeds that are comparable to Snape giving Voldemort the Prophecy. For one thing, there is a lack of a Voldemort figure: although some of us once thought that the White Walkers or Rhaegar’s son might provide that analogue (I was very big on the former idea, myself!), I think that Crows and Dragons wrecked that possibility. And we’ve never gotten any indication that LF is really working to put Daeny on the throne.

      So, the machinations seem to be very different. Somehow, Catelyn might be involved: but for the life of me, I cannot figure out how killing Jon Arryn was going to get LF any closer to Cat.

      Color me stumped 15+ years later!

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    54. BelovedLucifer,

      That photo was on the internet at least as early as April of this year, so it’s definitely not from Game of Thrones season 5 filming.

      Google Reverse Image search is pretty handy.

      edit: found another place it was posted as early as 2013.

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    55. Geralt of Rivia,

      In the North ? Interesting, but unless the White Walkers have somehow learnt to climb the Wall or to use ships, I don’t see why a special effects makeup artist would need to be there.

      Wimsey,

      She is a crucial element of A Feast for Crows. The story doesn’t make sense without her. What’s more, in Jaime and Brienne’s possible encounter with the

      BwB

      in the Winds of Winter, she may decide of the fate of one of these very important characters. Saying that she isn’t important because she doesn’t show up a lot would be like saying that Doran is a meaningless, background character because he doesn’t do much.
      However, I agree with you that she will probably not survive long after her meeting with Jaime in Winds.

      Maybe she will take a certain old man’s life and finally be at peace.

        Quote  Reply

    56. RosanaZugey: Both of those theories involved Sansa.

      But why would LF have been plotting to put a (then) girl he never had met on the Throne? How was killing Jon Arryn going to induce this?

      Sansa might now be part of LF’s plans, and she might be a goal of his: but he had some other goal before he knew anything about her.

      As for knowing that Ramsay was a psychopath, the question that would need to be answered is: how would LF know? If it had been common knowledge, then Ned Stark would have done something about it. And there is no reason why LF would have paid much attention to the Boltons: and even if he had, we know that the Boltons are very good at keeping their secrets to themselves.

      (Varys might have known, but his spy network was much more elaborate than LF’s; moreover, I suspect that Roose was up for keeping things even from the likes of Varys.)

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    57. Moosse Bolton,

      You find LSH more likely than… anyone with a makeup or prosthetic injury? How did you figure out those odds? There are countless possibilities for someone with an injury that would require a special effects makeup guy; LSH is a specific character. By default, the former is more likely than the latter.

      Maggie: maybe the building with the bridge was the twins??

      The set you’re talking about was a wooden rope bridge between two stone buildings. That sounds like Pyke, not the Twins.

        Quote  Reply

    58. The most direct thing for Littlefinger, however delayed, about the Arryn murder, was to free up his freaky breastfeeder wife and deliver the Vale to LF. In doing so he (LF) also ingratiated himself to the next powerbrokers. He couldn’t sit on the throne, but he could get the Vale and have the blessing of the crown. It certainly seems like there’s more going on than that, but this is itself a fairly packaged explanation. It’s a special kind of evil or selfishness, to burn down a kingdom in order to give yourself a corner of it.

      But there’s more.

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    59. BelovedLucifer: I also highly doubt Arya will be in the Riverlands this season (It may have just been a rumour) and if she is, it would have to be her arrival and not much else. Maisie was seen filming on the Braavos set for episodes 7-8, so the probability of her sailing halfway across the world and somehow managing to kill Walder in the space of two episodes is very little.

      WOTW reported Arya on the Riverlands as a fact, not a rumor.

      Also, Braavos is not halfway across the world. It’s on the eastern coast of Essos, at exactly the same latitude as the Riverlands, and it’s the most common Essossi port for those in Westeros. Arya just has to cross the Narrow Sea on a horizontal line and that’s literally it. She did a slightly longer trip between seasons 4 and 5; she can do it again, skipping one episode at most, episode 8 or most likely 9. We know she’s still in Braavos in either episode 7 or 8 because the director for those episodes was spotted in that scene, but we don’t know fort which of them the scene was. Also, she was escaping from the Waif, so she’s probably not staying for long by that point. Then, in the last few episodes, or maybe just the last one, she can do whatever it is she wants to do in the Riverlands. I agree she may not get to kill Walder, though.

      HelloThere,

      It’s not a plot hole. You can argue it’s a character inconsistency, because Littlefinger tends to know these things, but that’s not what “plot hole” means.

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    60. Wimsey

      Okay, I’ll buy that for a buck. I do see that there is a way that Littlefinger could give his life to save another that would be pivotal to the plot. I don’t know how or who, but it could certainly be done. And as with SS he could say a parting line that would enlighten the viewers/readers, with a large AHHHHH moment.

      Whether he can redeem himself……..eh…50/50 I would guess. I was one that argued with you that Snape could NOT be redeemed because of killing Dumbledore. As we know now, he did a mercy killing at Dumbledore’s bidding. So in fact, Snape DID redeem himself, regardless of past sins, before Harry was even born. The key thing, is that it was a point of debate right up to the end of the story. That is what could in fact happen for Littlefinger as well. While he has done despicable things, he has also done things that have been helpful…..self-serving maybe, but certainly helpful. (housed Cat in Kings Landing until Ned showed up – got Sansa away from KL)

      This is going to be interesting to watch how this all turns out. I am going to remember this small conversation today.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Wimsey: But why would LF have been plotting to put a (then) girl he never had met on the Throne?How was killing Jon Arryn going to induce this?

      Sansa might now be part of LF’s plans, and she might be a goal of his: but he had some other goal before he knew anything about her.

      I don’t think his original goal (at the beginning of the series) was to put Sansa on the Throne (or to rule with her on the Throne). I’m thinking it changed into that goal after he met her (or after Cat died and he was left with only her as a “younger and more beautiful” version of Cat). In any event, I think she’s a major factor in whatever he’s attempting to do, and if we *assume* that she is no longer willing to be a part of his schemes, where does that leave him in her story (the original question)?

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    62. HelloThere:
      RosanaZugey,

      Bryan Cogman confirmed he didn’t know in an interview which is a bit of a plot hole IMO but lets not get into that

      He didn’t know, what? He didn’t know what LF’s plans were, or he doesn’t kmow what part he plays in Sansa’s story, now?

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    63. Kay,

      Remote control BB8s are going to make a GAJILLION dollars this/next holiday season. If the merch department doesn’t go there it’ll be as dumb as not having dancing baby Groot toys ready to sell. (Oh, wait… same merch department >.<)

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    64. Moosse Bolton: She is a crucial element of A Feast for Crows. The story doesn’t make sense without her.

      No she isn’t —and yes it does. She may be crucial in TWOW, and I’d hazard a guess that either of the two characters involved may not escape her alive; however, as of yet, she hasn’t done anything at all.

      At any rate, I’ve long suspected that Sansa is taking that mantle. No, she’s not becoming a zombie, neither is she going to go on a crazy senseless revenge quest. But I’m pretty sure she’ll be taking LSH’s role, narratively speaking. Why did Brienne meet Sansa, if not for this? I believe that, when Brienne finds Sansa and Theon in the snow, or probably by the time they are all already safe at Last Hearth or the Wall, Brienne will explain her situation more thoroughly, admitting that Jaime sent her on this quest. As far as Sansa is concerned, Jaime is the enemy (which, you know, he IS), and she’ll figure she can use Jaime’s trust in Brienne against him, so Sansa will send Brienne on a quest to find Jaime. We know for a fact (because Sue and Javi from L7R said so) that Jaime will be very far away from Riverrun by the end of the season. So I believe Brienne will take Jaime North in episode 8 or so, and in episode 10 they’ll show up at Winterfell, which I assume the Stark alliance will have control of after the climactic battle in the previous episode. And then… whatever it is that happens with LSH in her lair will happen with Sansa in Winterfell.

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    65. I really liked Catelyn in the books and show…

      LS not so much but it will be interesting to see where her story goes in Winds. I think she is gonna send Jaime/Brienne after Cersei but book speculation is for another place. Michelle Fairley was phenomenal (and vastly underrated) as Cat but I just can’t see her appearing in the show. Jon’s resurrection will be one of the biggest things to happen in the whole series and as he is a main character having it happen to a lesser main character (when it probably would have happened in late Season 3/early Season 4 at best if it was happening) would diminish the shock affect/lessen the impact. It’s a bit like how other women who rule seem to have had this lessened or not mentioned at all to make Dany’s rise as a woman leader more singular/significant (No Arianne Martell or female Mormonts, Cersei has never been viewed as Protector of the Realm (AGOT)/technically head of House Lannister (in AFFC) unlike the books). I do appreciate that there are fans who have been into the ASOIAF series much longer than me and still hope for LS to make an appearance. I would quite like her to but just can’t see it happening.

      Sorry if my spoiler codes aren’t right!

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    66. Luka Nieto,

      Yea thats better wording

      I just wish Ramsay didn’t actually have a bunch of flayed northern lords hanging publicly on the day LF came to Bring Sansa, lol.
      But we all kinda know some character logic in LF had to be tampered w/ to make the Sansa story happen.

      But I honestly can understand why D&D wanted Sophie in that role and not a new actress

      RosanaZugey,

      Bryan Cogman confirmed that LF didn’t know Ramsay was a psychopath in the show version, unlike the book version.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Luka Nieto:
      RosanaZugey,

      No, Cogman confirmed Littlefinger didn’t know Ramsay was a psycho.

      Oh. Ok. Thanks for the clarification, because I was thinking it was weird that he didn’t know what was happening in a show he writes scripts for. ?

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    68. HelloThere: I just wish Ramsay didn’t actually have a bunch of flayed northern lords hanging publicly on the day LF came to Bring Sansa, lol.

      What do you mean?

      We saw the flayed lords, and in the next scene Roose told him to tone it down. So presumably they were removed; they were certainly not there by the time Sansa and Littlefinger arrived. And they only arrived after a large time skip —a time skip consisting of the travel time between Moat Cailin and Winterfell. So it certainly wasn’t the same day, and the corpses weren’t there by their arrival scene anyway.

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    69. Luka Nieto,

      All right, I’ll admit this is the first LSH alternate plot I’ve seen that actually makes sense. However, we know for a fact that Brienne will have some fight scenes with the outlaws (probably the BwB). Are you saying they are background characters used for filler purposes ? Seems pretty unnecessary to include the BwB AND Sansa’s LSH alternate plot in that case, but, knowing D&D’s expertise it wouldn’t surprise me.

      However, I still believe that LSH is essential to A Feast for Crows. Granted, she doesn’t do much, but she goes crescendo from the end of a Storm of Swords to that Jaime chapter in aDance with Dragons : She hangs Petyr (I think) Frey, Merrett Frey, Ryman Frey (The heir to the Twins) and his men, then forces Brienne (a very important character) to betray Jaime (another extremely important character), or at least we are lead to believe that. She doesn’t do much, but she is pulling a lot of strings.

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    70. JCDavis: Wrong? No one knows yet what might be considered as “wrong”. Being an adaptation of the books, there may be differences, even Mr. Martin agreed to that. But we DO know that D & D KNOW what is going to happen to all major characters and the outcome of the Game. How they get there may be different, but they will end up in the same place. I see no “wrong doing” on the part of the show runners.

      Don’t take my sentence out of context! I was answering to someone who said that the showrunners were going to create stuff where characters would “do nothing” in order to avoid an adaptation of TWOW. And then I said it’s “wrong” to assume that, considering the fact that the showrunners already adapted things of TWOW in S5 (Stannis, Tyrion, Myrcella…) and have no reason to stop. I never said that the showrunners are “wrong” to do what they do, in fact I’m one of their defenders when they are attacked for their changes toward the books…

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    71. Begs the question, is Jaime

      going to the Twins to get Edmure from Walder Frey or is Walder Frey going to be at the Riverrun siege and already have him held hostage there when Jaime shows up?

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    72. Moosse Bolton,

      All of that is setup. Setup for important, crucial stuff for the future… but in terms of ASOS and AFFC, only setup.

      As for the outlaws, we don’t know what their role will be, or if they are the Brotherhood (though I believe they may have been in the past). We know so little, so I won’t even speculate. We certainly haven’t heard of Thoros or even Beric coming back, not even rumors.

        Quote  Reply

    73. I’ve been to these woods at Tollymore Forest Park. Admittedly for two photos, it’s hard to pinpoint the exact location and to confirm if it’s Tollymore or not, but it’s been the go-to for the “Real North” woods in previous season.

      If it is Tollymore, that place is huge. If the guys didn’t signpost their way to location (thankfully they do), they could literally get lost in that area. There are lots of locations in there for them to shoot any area of Thrones in (except King’s Landing & Essos).

      It’s also hard to say “it’s somewhere in the middle, because while there is snow, there’s not a lot of it, as the North would” as that fake snow will be more than doubled in CGI.

      I don’t see a real reason for beyond the wall in season 6, unless Benjen is coming back, but I ain’t starting hype. I doubt it’s Benjen.

      Excited to find out!

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    74. Stoneheart is 90 percent in! I think they decide to exclude her at first, like in season 4 and 5. But Martin

      is a big fan of her and I´m sure he made sure she will get very important in TWOW, in such a way they can’t go around her anymore! Above all, she is the big cliffhanger of a whole book! You don’t do that as a good writer when someone is not important.

      I don’t get the people whining it’s too late. She only has a few scenes in the current books and storywise it would be good to show here whole arc in a shorter period of time, not through 3 seasons. And yes, we have to wait a year between seasons, but only 20 episodes have past since the Red Wedding. So many, that the shock will be even bigger when she comes back in Season 6.

      Above all, there’s nothing cooler than Arya wandering through the RIverland with her undead mother and murdering on the way. That’s what we want to see! Not some invented plot. How could you invent something else with Jaime and Brienne, who ALSO HAVE A BIG BOOK CLIFFHANGER with Stoneheart. LSH isn’t leaked because they are doing well in hiding her. They can control what is leaked and not, they are not stupid. Has Beric Dondarion or the BwB leaked already? No..

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    75. lord-mozes:
      Kay,

      Thumbs down mate!!! This is not a Star Wars forum. Anyone have any Potter crap to post?

      Oh did you miss the crap up thread? tsk tsk. Some people can discuss both GoT’s and Potter worlds IN context. I would assume that SW and GoT’s could have similar allegory.

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    76. Moosse Bolton,

      I’ve felt that

      LSH

      was cut from GoT entirely, and that has been the plan since Season Three, ever since I noticed this minor, yet significant, difference between the show and the books:

      Books: “Jamie Lannister sends his regards.”

      Show: “The Lannisters send their regards.”

      To put it simply …

      The reason why LSH sends Brienne after Jamie is because that line was literally one of the last things she heard. From her perspective, Jamie is the one who set up the Red Wedding and thus is the person responsible for wiping out the last of her family AFTER she had shown him mercy by freeing him. So LSH is now hell-bent on getting revenge against Jamie to avenge her family. LSH does not know that Jamie had absolutely nothing to do with the Red Wedding at all.

      When the show changed that line, they removed a major part of LSH’s motivation, and thus the need for that character to even show up at all.

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    77. RosanaZugey: So…where does he fit? And without Sansa, why is he important anymore? Does HE die this season?

      We always forget how devious Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish has been/is/will be. LF has had big plans for himself all his life. He still does. His talk with Roose Bolton, after he “delivered” Sansa as he promised tells what he intends to do with the Vale army:

      From Season 5, episode 3 about 49 minutes in:

      Roose: I’m sure you understand my position, Lord Baelish. If you receive word in the night from the Queen Mother, it does make me question our new alliance. The Lannisters made you one of the great lords of Westeros, Yet here you are in the North, undermining them. Why gamble with your position?

      LF: Every ambitious move is a gamble. You gambled when you drove a dagger into Robb Stark’s heart. It appears that your gamble paid off. You are Warden of the North.

      Roose: I had Tywin Lannister’s backing. Who supports me, now? You?

      LF: The Eyrie is mine. The last time the lords of the Eyrie formed an alliance with the lords of the North, they brought down the greatest dynasty this world has ever known. …

      He’s not dying, not yet. The agenda LF set for himself is twofold – bringing down the great houses that spurned him and ruling Westeros, by use of Sansa’s name and the Vale armies, or whatever else it takes.

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    78. Off-Topic Otto: The most direct thing for Littlefinger, however delayed, about the Arryn murder, was to free up his freaky breastfeeder wife and deliver the Vale to LF.

      Except that this turned out to be very indirect. It was some time before this happened. Moreover, the pretext for LF doing this was the War of 5 Kings: the Crown needed the Vale to either fight with the Lannisters or stay out of the conflict.

      HelloThere: I just wish Ramsay didn’t actually have a bunch of flayed northern lords hanging publicly on the day LF came to Bring Sansa, lol.
      But we all kinda know some character logic in LF had to be tampered w/ to make the Sansa story happen.

      Besides what Luka Nieto posted, the fact that the Boltons flay people was no secret. And it should be no surprise to LF that there might be resistance to Bolton rule given how the Boltons had betrayed the Starks. So that should not have dismayed Littlefinger at all: on the contrary, if he had been paying attention, then he would have been very unsurprised to see that. (I do not know that he would have expected it per se: but there is a difference between not expecting something and being surprised by it.)

      That Ramsay is a psychopath (or “devoid of honor” or however they would put it in their world) is a completely separate issue. It has nothing to do with flaying or the fact that he’s a Bolton. For some reason, people keep confounding the “flaying” and the “psychopathy”: but they are two distinct things. (If nothing else, then the former is advertised whereas the latter is a state secret.)

      Josh L.: Books: “Jamie Lannister sends his regards.”

      Show: “The Lannisters send their regards.”

      Given that the audience is not going to remember such specifics years afterwards, and given that the show also makes it clear that these cultures consider any family member fair game for extracting revenge on a family, that change in no way leads to your conclusion. They could have kept in LSH as it seems GRRM is going to do in Winter (remember, she’s been in 2 pages otherwise) and everyone would have thought it made perfect sense. (Well, not “perfect”: but at least as much sense as it does in the book!)

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    79. Josh L.,

      Exactly!!! Jaime’s part in LSH’s revenge plot is null and void on the show.

      However, show Brienne makes numerous references to ‘I made a vow to Lady Stark, etc.’, so LSH would only exist to punish Brienne for mucking things up–but I don’t see that happening.

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    80. Moosse Bolton:
      If this isn’t a certain

      I’ll eat my hat !

      My thoughts exactly. Why else would the special effects makeup artist be posting pics of ominous trees and forest scenes? I’m on the hype train.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Luka Nieto,

      I really have a hard time seeing how that would work. Sansa has never even mentioned Jaime, and while it’s certainly correct that she should regard him as an enemy if you logically look at the premises, the show strongly dislikes conflict between “good” characters, and I really can’t see them introducing one that doesn’t exist in the books at all and which there’s no real build-up for. It’s also a bit of a stretch, to me, in terms of priority; assume that Brienne gets Sansa to Castle Black, they’re then facing a major war to defeat the Boltons. Why send such a peerless warrior away for a task that could be done at literally any time?

      Your earlier theory, about her being sent to look for Arya, to me makes more sense, since it’s easy to imagine them feeling some urgency about it.

        Quote  Reply

    82. BelovedLucifer,

      Welcome to the Wall!

      With all the questions about what location in Westeros those snowy woods represent, I’m starting to really wonder how far south we’ll see winter reach in season 6. I’d wondered that already, but now I’m really starting to focus on it, in part because if there’s snow in the Riverlands, wouldn’t that mean there’s also snow at that approximate latitude in Essos, as well?

        Quote  Reply

    83. Josh L.,

      Ummm… We are talking about a woman who commits several atrocities to innocent people for the crime of being a Frey, or being somewhat linked to the Freys, the Lannisters or the Boltons.
      Agreed, she doesn’t have a grudge against Jaime, but if she lays her hands on him you can be sure things will turn badly for him or Brienne.
      What’s more, not only does LSH not care whether he is innocent or guilty, he IS guilty. He was an accomplice, he was fully aware Roose would betray Robb, and that’s not counting the things he did to the Stark Family “for love” : pushing Bran out of the window, butchering Ned’s men…
      I mean, at this point he deserves to die. We don’t need LSH to be obsessed with Jaime. He is -or at least was- a terrible person.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Thronetender: We always forget how devious Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish has been/is/will be.LF has had big plans for himself all his life. He still does. His talk with Roose Bolton, after he “delivered” Sansa as he promised tells what he intends to do with the Vale army:

      From Season 5, episode 3 about 49 minutes in:

      Roose: I’m sure you understand my position, Lord Baelish. If you receive word in the night from the Queen Mother, it does make me question our new alliance. The Lannisters made you one of the great lords of Westeros, Yet here you are in the North, undermining them. Why gamble with your position?

      LF: Every ambitious move is a gamble. You gambled when you drove a dagger into Robb Stark’s heart. It appears that your gamble paid off. You are Warden of the North.

      Roose: I had Tywin Lannister’s backing. Who supports me, now? You?

      LF: The Eyrie is mine. The last time the lords of the Eyrie formed an alliance with the lords of the North, they brought down the greatest dynasty this world has ever known. …

      He’s not dying, not yet. The agenda LF set for himself is twofold – bringing down the great houses that spurned him and ruling Westeros, by use of Sansa’s name and the Vale armies, or whatever else it takes.

      Hum. So, if I understand correctly, you think his agenda is to unite the Vale with the North and take the Iron Throne. I think that’s entirely possible and plausible. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out, however, because I think the dynamics will be completely different. If we suppose that by episode 10, the Starks–through either Jon, Sansa, Rickon, or all 3–control the North, there would be no reason (at least, not that I can currently see), for them to join Petyr and the Vale and march south. And with winter coming, and the Northern lords/armies coming off the battlefield (literally), I don’t know how he could ‘motivate’ them to go right back to war. The North will not fight for Petyr and his ambitions. However, they will fight for a Stark, so, the only thing I can imagine happening is Petyr somehow convincing Sansa that she should be sitting on the Iron Throne and the Vale/Northern armies are going to be the way to do that. Then again (I know…it’s like I’m having an argument with myself), it goes back to an earlier point I was trying to make; WHY would Sansa listen too/do anything Petyr wants anymore? Even if she’s not personally angry with him for marrying her off to Ramsay, she already has what she wants. She has Winterfell, the North, and her family. What could he offer that would make her move away from that?

        Quote  Reply

    85. Luka Nieto,

      Interesting version of LSH story altough I doubt this. I didn’t know that Jaime will be far away from Riverrun. Still intrigued where will Sansa ends up. CB is the most logical destination or Umbers. Then Umbers might be playing Boltons or not.

      JCDavis:
      Wimsey

      Has he been secretly trying to promote the welfare of Jon Snow all along?

      Where did you get this idea from? Just curious.

        Quote  Reply

    86. RosanaZugey: Even if she’s not personally angry with him for marrying her off to Ramsay, she already has what she wants. She has Winterfell, the North, and her family. What could he offer that would make her move away from that?

      We don’t know for sure yet that she “has” Winterfell; I’m assuming that’s a big part of the reason for the BastardBowl. I think we are ALL assuming/hoping that she and Jon win it back and clear the Boltons/Freys out.

      While planning to use Sansa to overtake the Iron Throne might be on LF’s agenda, I’m not saying that I think he gets to do that. The Starks have managed to throw a whole lot of wrenches into his crafty plans. He couldn’t know about Jon’s alliance with the Wildings, or of Jon being released from his NW vows. He couldn’t know that Sansa would become so desperate that she’d rather jump off a wall and run for it than stay and consummate his “bargain” with Roose for him. Or that she may be starting see his treatment of her and her family as the betrayal it has been. I like to think that even Arya returning to Riverrun somehow manages to mess things up for him. I don’t know how all this is going to happen, I’m hoping that it does. I do feel that LF’s grand plan for dominance is slowly coming undone. About time, too.

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    87. Geralt of Rivia:
      Luka Nieto,

      I didn’t know that Jaime will be far away from Riverrun.

      We know Jaime will be “other places” in Episode 10. Not that he’s far away from Riverrun. (I mean, I’m sure wherever else he is will be some distance away, but I wouldn’t use the original wording to assume that means far as in North far). Could be, but there’s no hint of that.

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    88. Thronetender:
      He couldn’t know that Sansa would become so desperate that she’d rather jump off a wall and run for it than stay and consummate his “bargain” with Roose for him.

      That’s not really contrary to his plan, as far as we know. His stupid plan involved Sansa somehow influencing the Boltons, which by that point was clearly impossible. If anything, he’d be glad she escaped, since the Boltons would simply have killed her whenever he showed up to invade.

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    89. Sean C.: If anything, he’d be glad she escaped, since the Boltons would simply have killed her whenever he showed up to invade.

      He might be somewhat glad she escaped, but he’d be highly annoyed that it came to that, that she wasn’t able to “seduce” Ramsay properly, as he had suggested that she do. He’s basically a pimp at heart, remember. And he doesn’t like when one of his girls doesn’t perform as expected. Varys even said something to the effect that when LF looks at a woman (in this case it was Ros) he sees an assortment of profitable holes.

      Some of you STILL think he was truly madly in love with Cat and now Sansa by extension. And there’s going to be a redemption arc for him. Hogwash. He may have loved Cat when he was a little boy, but being manhandled by Ned’s brother would have cured him of that, I think. He came to see it as a betrayal by highborn women, all of whom he intends to betray in return, imho. He betrayed Lysa, he betrayed Cat, he intends to betray Cersei, and he was casting about for a way to betray Olenna.

      Someone said that in the books he knew about Ramsay. On the show, they attempted to portray that he didn’t by saying to Ramsay: “I’ve heard very little about you, which makes you quite a rare thing as lords go.”

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    90. Thronetender: We don’t know for sure yet that she “has” Winterfell; I’m assuming that’s a big part of the reason for the BastardBowl. I think we are ALL assuming/hoping that she and Jon win it back and clear the Boltons/Freys out.

      While planning to use Sansa to overtake the Iron Throne might be on LF’s agenda, I’m not saying that I think he gets to do that.The Starks have managed to throw a whole lot of wrenches into his crafty plans.He couldn’t know about Jon’s alliance with the Wildings, or of Jon being released from his NW vows. He couldn’t know that Sansa would become so desperate that she’d rather jump off a wall and run for it than stay and consummate his “bargain” with Roose for him. Or that she may be starting see his treatment of her and her family as the betrayal it has been.I like to think that even Arya returning to Riverrun somehow manages to mess things up for him. I don’t know how all this is going to happen, I’m hoping that it does.I do feel that LF’s grand plan for dominance is slowly coming undone. About time, too.

      I really like this post. Especially this concept of the Starks always throwing monkey wrenches into his plans. I mean hell, you can make that argument starting with Ned and his refusal to support Joffrey over Stannis. Excellent observation.

      And you’re right, we all are *assuming* they retake the North. Hell, it might be an assumption to think Sansa lives till episode 10 (which…if she doesn’t…it would make this whole discussion moot). That’s why I always try to qualify my statements by inserting “assuming” and “IF”.

      This whole situation has me intrigued I tell you. Intrigued! If Sansa had stayed in the Vale, married Harry, and convinced him to take the Vale forces North to retake Winterfell, we wouldn’t be having this conversation either. Because she would still be “united” with Petyr and still fully going along with his original plans. But since she has seemingly broken away from his agenda (by literally jumping right out of it), and with the possibility that her and Jon retake the North without any Vale support…it makes it hard for me to see wtf is going on with their (Sansa and Petyr’s) story, or their relevance to each other (particularly from Sansa’s point of view).

      Crazy Theory Time!

      Tell me what you think. Is it both possible and plausible that Petyr uses the Vale army to ATTACK the North? And I don’t mean attack the Boltons; I mean attack Sansa/Jon and their allies. If Petyr is acting in his own self interests…and that interest involves controlling the 7K’s, then…independent of Sansa…he can control at least three of those Kingdoms (The Vale, The Riverlands, and The North), if he outright attacks Sansa/Jon. It’d be a perfect time to do it too. I mean, those forces will already be tired and depleted from their battle with the Boltons, so there won’t be much resistance. And depending on how that battle actually goes, Sansa and/or Jon might not be willing to risk anymore of their people dying, and would acquiesce (at least temporarily).

      But what do you think? Hell yes, or Heavens no!

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    91. Sue the Fury:
      BelovedLucifer,

      That photo was on the internet at least as early as April of this year, so it’s definitely not from Game of Thrones season 5 filming.

      Google Reverse Image search is pretty handy.

      edit: found another place it was posted as early as 2013.

      Alright, thanks Sue 🙂

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    92. Thronetender,

      I’ve been reading all the comments about Sansa and LF and why she would listen, or follow, or have anything to do with him anymore and without her, what is his role or purpose anymore?

      I agree that LF’s role is much larger than just a side-character to Sansa. He as his own agenda and motivations before and beyond her, if Sansa has died/escaped the same time Arya did – LF would still be scheming and plotting and be a force behind the scenes; but she didn’t, so she came under his notice and became part of his schemes (anything more is speculative, but fun to think about).

      But I think the point that is really missing is Sansa’s POV. We, the audience know how manipulative and untrustworthy LF is, but what is Sansa’s POV.

      1) He was her mother’s good childhood friend and has an obvious affection for her mother, he has said as much to her

      2) He rescued her from King’s Landing, at great risk to himself, also played a role in killing Joffrey (she can’t hate that)

      3) He continues to help her hide in the Vale, and then literally saves her life again by killing Lysa

      4) He doesn’t treat her completely like child, he talks to her about politics and strategies – not all of his of course, but enough to make her feel like she is making decisions and playing an active role

      5) He gave her an opportunity to get some justice and return home to Winterfell – didn’t work out, but I don’t think she believes that he knew how horrible it would all turn out. She might be angry about it, but again he was clever and manipulated her into believing it was her choice to go. She willing went, stayed and married.

      6) Most likely he will come again with the Vale army to ‘help’ rescue her

      We, the audience knows that he has done a lot of bad things, and that he isn’t trustworthy, but Sansa hasn’t really seen any of that, at least not directed at her. I think her basic instincts are telling her not to completely trust LF, but so far she really hasn’t had a reason not to rely or trust him .

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    93. Sean C.:
      Luka Nieto,

      I really have a hard time seeing how that would work.Sansa has never even mentioned Jaime, and while it’s certainly correct that she should regard him as an enemy if you logically look at the premises, the show strongly dislikes conflict between “good” characters, and I really can’t see them introducing one that doesn’t exist in the books at all and which there’s no real build-up for.It’s also a bit of a stretch, to me, in terms of priority; assume that Brienne gets Sansa to Castle Black, they’re then facing a major war to defeat the Boltons.Why send such a peerless warrior away for a task that could be done at literally any time?

      Your earlier theory, about her being sent to look for Arya, to me makes more sense, since it’s easy to imagine them feeling some urgency about it.

      Hello Sean C!

      I’m not sure I see that aversion to conflict between “good” characters that you do. Jamie + Tyrion are at odds, Dany + the Starks (well, everyone), Brienne + the Hound, Olenna + the HS, Marge + Tommen, Arya + Jaq’en…

      I see your point, but I could also easily see the story becoming one in which we become attached to all these characters, then some of those kill others that we’ve grown to like. Bittersweet, n’est-ce pas? 🙂

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    94. RosanaZugey: I really like this post. Especially this concept of the Starks always throwing monkey wrenches into his plans. I mean hell, you can make that argument starting with Ned and his refusal to support Joffrey over Stannis. Excellent observation.

      Tell me what you think. Is it both possible and plausible that Petyr uses the Vale army to ATTACK the North? And I don’t mean attack the Boltons; I mean attack Sansa/Jon and their allies. If Petyr is acting in his own self interests…and that interest involves controlling the 7K’s, then…independent of Sansa…he can control at least three of those Kingdoms (The Vale, The Riverlands, and The North), if he outright attacks Sansa/Jon. It’d be a perfect time to do it too. I mean, those forces will already be tired and depleted from their battle with the Boltons, so there won’t be much resistance. And depending on how that battle actually goes, Sansa and/or Jon might not be willing to risk anymore of their people dying, and would acquiesce (at least temporarily).

      But what do you think? Hell yes, or Heavens no!

      I like this idea too, the Starks causing unforeseen trouble 🙂

      I don’t think LF will attack unless
      1) he has no other options
      2) he knows he would win

      LF is a talker and manipulator, not a fighter or commander. Also it is well known that the Vale (in general) are friendly with the North. Ned lived in the Vale in his youth, and I’m sure personally knew most of the Vale lords and leaders. Robyn is cousin to the Starks. LF might be the acting Lord of the Vale, but he really doesn’t have their complete loyalty. I don’t think it would be easy for LF to convince them to fight the Starks, especially if they were already depleted from the Bolton battle – not very honorable. “High as Honor”

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    95. viki: I like this idea too, the Starks causing unforeseen trouble

      I don’t think LF will attack unless
      1) he has no other options
      2) he knows he would win

      LF is a talker and manipulator, not a fighter or commander.Also it is well known that the Vale (in general) are friendly with the North. Ned lived in the Vale in his youth, and I’m sure personally knew most of the Vale lords and leaders.Robyn is cousin to the Starks. LF might be the acting Lord of the Vale, but he really doesn’t have their complete loyalty.I don’t think it would be easy for LF to convince them to fight the Starks, especially if they were already depleted from the Bolton battle – not very honorable. “High as Honor”

      The only monkey wrench that crossed my mind when I wrote my previous theory would be: How the hell is he going to get The Vale to attack the North when the Vale has always been allies with the Starks (which kind of gets to your point as well)? And I’ve come up with some theories:

      -He has Royce killed, giving him control and command of the Vale armies. Its the Lords who have loyalty to the Starks, not the soldiers. The soldiers do whatever the Lord of the Vale commands. If Petyr gains sole control of the Vale, he can send them to do whatever he wants. And he would have control, if he gets rid of Royce (and we know they filmed scenes together for this season, so some type of interaction will happen there), and keeps Robin under his control (or has him killed as well).

      Or…

      -He kills the actual Lord of the Vale (Robin) and blames it on Sansa. ‘Honor’ will demand that they avenge their lord.

      Or…

      -He makes them a threat to the sovereignty of the Vale. Sansa and Jon have aligned with a bunch of wildlings. Soon enough, they’ll march south with those heathens and take the 7K’s. They should be stopped.

      Or…

      -He could tell them they ARE attacking the Boltons and/or Stannis, and they wouldn’t find out till afterwards. And even after they find out, all he has to do is put a knife to Sansa’s throat.

      In any of these scenarios, you’d have Sansa/Petyr in the same storyline, but as enemies (which…has to happen at some point. They’re too far in to this story for Sansa to still be mindlessly following other people’s agendas.)

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    96. Thronetender:
      Some of you STILL think he was truly madly in love with Cat and now Sansa by extension.And there’s going to be a redemption arc for him.

      I don’t know how you got to that from my post (redemption). Littlefinger is fixated on Sansa as both a political pawn and as the embodiment of his lost childhood dreams; there’s nothing redemptive about it; if anything, the degree to which he has destroyed her life in order to make her his is one of the more damning things about him.

      RosanaZugey:
      Tell me what you think. Is it both possible and plausible that Petyr uses the Vale army to ATTACK the North? And I don’t mean attack the Boltons; I mean attack Sansa/Jon and their allies. If Petyr is acting in his own self interests…and that interest involves controlling the 7K’s, then…independent of Sansa…he can control at least three of those Kingdoms (The Vale, The Riverlands, and The North), if he outright attacks Sansa/Jon. It’d be a perfect time to do it too. I mean, those forces will already be tired and depleted from their battle with the Boltons, so there won’t be much resistance. And depending on how that battle actually goes, Sansa and/or Jon might not be willing to risk anymore of their people dying, and would acquiesce (at least temporarily).

      Unless the show completely ignores what it has already set up about the Valemen, no, that wouldn’t happen. Royce and co. are all Stark-aligned (indeed, unlike in the books where there are different factions, the show’s version of the Vale has been streamlined down to the guys who are Stark boosters) and the only reason they presumably will be aiding Littlefinger this upcoming season is because Sansa vouched for him.

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    97. Geralt of Rivia:
      Luka Nieto,

      Interesting version of LSH story altough I doubt this. I didn’t know that Jaime will be far away from Riverrun. Still intrigued where will Sansa ends up. CB is the most logical destination or Umbers. Then Umbers might be playing Boltons or not.

      Where did you get this idea from? Just curious.

      If you had read the whole post, we were comparing Severus Snape to Littlefinger and I asked Wimsey if he thought that LF would see Cat in Sansa’s eyes (same as Snape saw Harry’s mother in his eyes all the time) and if he was secretly maneuvering Jon Snow to an advantage (like we learned Snape did for Harry)….so that is all. Just some odd reference and speculation that Littlefinger may be a role similar to Severus Snape.

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    98. I just have one question about Littlefinger…has someone seen or heard of Aiden Gillen in Belfast/N.I apart for the one in Winterfell set? Or even from some Valle troops/actors ? Because we know that Sophie is in Belfast and that she was part of the battle in the north, we know we was filming in a different unit a few weeks ago but I haven’t heard of Aiden.

      The only spoiler we have from littlefinger is from wic and I don’t know if they are trust worthy

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    99. Edith:
      I just have one question about Littlefinger…has someone seen or heard of Aiden Gillen in Belfast/N.I apart for the one in Winterfell set? Or even from some Valle troops/actors ? Because we know that Sophie is in Belfast and that she was part of the battle in the north, we know we was filming in a different unit a few weeks ago but I haven’t heard of Aiden.

      The only spoiler we have from littlefinger is from wic and I don’t know if they are trust worthy

      There was news that he was filming with Yohn Royce and some Vale troops (if I recall correctly) at the beginning of the summer (on this site). Other than that tidbit and the Winterfell set one (which…I’m not too sure about), I haven’t heard of any news. Haven’t even seen a photo of him filming.

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    100. Edith,

      No, we haven’t. The only indication we have of Gillen doing any filming at all is that IrishThrones report of his trailer being at the Winterfell set back in early August.

      Speculation making use of later book information:

      I’m increasingly wondering if Littlefinger is going to be largely off-screen this season (which they haven’t been afraid to do with Varys in the past). There’s nothing to suggest he’s involved in the main Northern plotline for most of it, given the Vale’s seeming absence from the final battle; and we’ve heard nothing about him filming in King’s Landing. Speculatively, if you take the position that the northward advance storyline is also going to happen in the novels in some loosely similar form, it seems unlikely that he and Sansa will get there before the Bolton story is resolved, at the seeming pace being set by the preview Alayne chapter from TWOW. In which case, the writers may be delaying his arrival until episode 9/10 as a mimic of the novel’s events (with the huge change that instead of traveling with him, Sansa is already there; indeed, how exactly that’s going to be navigated is a giant question mark).

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    101. Sean C.: I don’t know how you got to that from my post (redemption).Littlefinger is fixated on Sansa as both a political pawn and as the embodiment of his lost childhood dreams; there’s nothing redemptive about it; if anything, the degree to which he has destroyed her life in order to make her his is one of the more damning things about him.

      Unless the show completely ignores what it has already set up about the Valemen, no, that wouldn’t happen.Royce and co. are all Stark-aligned (indeed, unlike in the books where there are different factions, the show’s version of the Vale has been streamlined down to the guys who are Stark boosters) and the only reason they presumably will be aiding Littlefinger this upcoming season is because Sansa vouched for him.

      Do you have any thoughts on my possible scenarios? Also, how does he convince the Vale people to go North? How does he even explain to them that Sansa is in the North married to Ramsay? He told Royce that they were going to the Fingers. Going back without her is going to look mighty suspect (I would imagine).

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    102. RosanaZugey,

      I think those scenarios are stretches.

      As to how he’s going to explain why Sansa isn’t with him, I have no idea how they’re going to justify that. But there’s no real narrative likelihood of having them not go (when the Vale has largely been treated just as a means of getting Littlefinger an army), so I expect they’ll go. Certainly, though, Littlefinger once in the North should be entirely dependent on Sansa going along with whatever story he spins to Royce and co.

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    103. I think Little Finger would be upset to see how Ramsay has treated Sansa. If you remember, he didn’t have a lot of info on Ramsay, so I’m not sure he was aware of how much of a psycho he is. Plus, Sansa = Second Cat to him.

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    104. Sean C.:
      RosanaZugey,

      I think those scenarios are stretches.

      As to how he’s going to explain why Sansa isn’t with him, I have no idea how they’re going to justify that.But there’s no real narrative likelihood of having them not go (when the Vale has largely been treated just as a means of getting Littlefinger an army), so I expect they’ll go.Certainly, though, Littlefinger once in the North should be entirely dependent on Sansa going along with whatever story he spins to Royce and co.

      And if she doesn’t? I find it hard to believe that she’d still go along with anything he spins. Not only would I consider that negative character development, but I don’t see why she would have too (IF we are right in assuming that Jon/Sansa/Northerns retake Winterfell and the North). If we add Jon into this equation, I’m not sure he’d let her go even if she wanted too. I tell you, the dynamics have changed. And because they’ve changed, I’m almost willing to bet that the days of them being the “gruesome twosome” are over.

      Furthermore, you’re absolutely right in saying that the only reason the Vale tolerates Petyr is because Sansa vouched for him. Its another one of those dynamic changes that ultimately gives her power over him, and makes him dependent on her (as opposed to the other way around in the books). Since that’s the case, his storyline (in the show) is very much dependent on her. If she doesn’t need him anymore, what’s his point in the story? I mean, I know people get flustered with me for reducing everyone’s importance to their relationship with Sansa, but in this situation, its kind of true. Petry is not an “independent” player in this game. Everything he has achieved has been THROUGH other people. If he wants something, he doesn’t just go out and take it. He uses other people to get it. If and when those other people don’t cooperate (as I’m hoping is the case with Sansa), then his relevance is greatly reduced.

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    105. kit_hepburn: We know Jaime will be “other places” in Episode 10. Not that he’s far away from Riverrun. (I mean, I’m sure wherever else he is will be some distance away, but I wouldn’t use the original wording to assume that means far as in North far). Could be, but there’s no hint of that.

      Yes. There is. Sue said she will not be in Riverrun by the end of the season, which is what you’re referencing. But that’s not the only thing we know. Javi from Los Siete Reinos sardonically mentioned that Jaime would use Littlefinger’s jetpack; which means Jaime will go very far away very quickly.

      Sean C.: the show strongly dislikes conflict between “good” characters

      Couldn’t disagree more. For me, that kind of conflict is exactly what the show is all about, so I wouldn’t say it strongly dislikes those conflicts. Quite the opposite! Isn’t the whole story about precisely that?

      Sean C.: It’s also a bit of a stretch, to me, in terms of priority; assume that Brienne gets Sansa to Castle Black, they’re then facing a major war to defeat the Boltons. Why send such a peerless warrior away for a task that could be done at literally any time?

      By that point Sansa should have or be in the process of having a whole army of Stark loyalists. A bodyguard isn’t gonna make any difference, however great of a warrior she is. Her relationship with Jaime would make her much more of a crucial asset in a quest to lure Jaime in than her prowess would in the battle for the North. As for her motivations, you always bring that up and I can’t even believe you could say that, honestly. As far as she is concerned, the Lannisters are as responsible for the murder of her whole family as the Boltons and the Freys. And she knows for a fact Jaime personally threw Bran out of a window and commanded armies against Robb. What more motivation could she need? Honestly…

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    106. Sean C.: It’s also a bit of a stretch, to me, in terms of priority; assume that Brienne gets Sansa to Castle Black, they’re then facing a major war to defeat the Boltons. Why send such a peerless warrior away for a task that could be done at literally any time?

      By that point Sansa should have or be in the process of having a whole army of Stark loyalists. A bodyguard isn’t gonna make any difference, however great of a warrior she is. Her relationship with Jaime would make her much more important in such a quest than her prowess would in the battle for the North.

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    107. Luka Nieto,

      I thought that was a reference to the fact that he’s in King’s Landing in Episode 6 (apparently) but already in Riverrun dealing with a siege in Episode 7 and 8. I guess if you add to it that he then ALSO goes somewhere else by Episode 10,taken together it does seem like he might have a trusty Littlefinger Jetpack. But I didn’t necessarily think that meant he’s going far, FAR away between Episodes 8 and 10. Again, maybe he is, I just didn’t think the description was that specific.

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    108. Moosse Bolton: She is a crucial element of A Feast for Crows. The story doesn’t make sense without her.

      Utter bollocks. She’s on one page, and none of the internal conflicts for any of the characters is driven by LSH in any way. Moreover, the Crows/Dragons story of “kill the boy, let the man be born” was completely coherent given just Jon’s, Daeny’s, Arya’s, Bran’s and Tyrion’s storylines. Brienne’s contribution was so muddled as to be counter-productive (and LSH does not even appear until the last page of that), and Jaime’s contribution was delivered by his attempts at playing Tywin II revealing anti-Tywin I, and thus had nothing to do with LSH.

      So, no: LSH is not remotely close to being necessary to understand the Crows/Dragons story. (Lots and lots of people figure it out without any problems from Season 5, after all.)

      Geralt of Rivia: Where did you get this idea from? Just curious.

      I missed that part! No, the Rhaegar’s son in question was Aegon, not Jon. A contingent of fans long thought that it was implausible that the toddler would have been left to die when it is so easy to swap toddlers for one another. (Go to a daycare/creche of 25 2 year olds, and you’ll see the “same” 5 or 6 kids over and over and over….) And some of them thought that, somehow, someway, Littlefinger was acting as Aegon’s agent. The assumption was that Varys was acting on behalf of Viserys and Daeny, and that this might have underlain the quiet war between the two. (I was in the LF was an agent for The Others camp, myself, although I thought that the Aegon’s camp idea also had merit, too. Whoops….)

      There is no reason to think that LF considers Jon to be anything other than Ned’s bastard. There are a couple of chances for LF to tease Ned with hints that he (LF) knows the truth when they are discussing Robert’s bastards, but LF never hints that he considers Jon to be anything other than Ned’s.

      Thronetender: Some of you STILL think he was truly madly in love with Cat and now Sansa by extension. And there’s going to be a redemption arc for him. Hogwash. He may have loved Cat when he was a little boy, but being manhandled by Ned’s brother would have cured him of that, I think.

      You think incorrectly. If Cat was not already an obsession for Littlefinger at that time, then she soon became one. Obsessions are not easily discarded. (This is one thing that LF does share with Severus Snape.) Remember, LF genuinely thought for a long time that Catelyn came to his bed one fateful evening, when it turned out to be Lysa instead. (I think that LF learns this before Lysa dies: but that does not change what he thought for so many years.) There are two upshots of this. One, Catelyn somehow does figure into LF’s manipulations, including why he kicked the rock down the slope by having Jon Arryn killed. Once upon a time I thought that the White Walkers (or Aegon Targaryen’s people) promised LF Cat for doing this. Now: I don’t know how/why LF thought this would satisfy his obsession. Two, LF has transferred that obsession to Sansa. Where is that going? I don’t know. However, you can bet that he expects her to end up a widow after Ramsay or Harry the Heir! He probably is banking on Sansa having learned how to play the “I hate my husband to death” game from Cersei.

      Thronetender: Someone said that in the books he knew about Ramsay. On the show, they attempted to portray that he didn’t by saying to Ramsay: “I’ve heard very little about you, which makes you quite a rare thing as lords go.”

      I think that LF might have become aware of Ramsay’s existence. However, there is no indication that he knows what Ramsay is. It would be very inconsistent with the books’ constant reminders that the North is very mysterious to the southerners, and much of what happens in the North stays in the North.

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    109. kit_hepburn: I guess if you add to it that he then ALSO goes somewhere else by Episode 10,taken together it does seem like he might have a trusty Littlefinger Jetpack.

      Or we could be like everyone else and just assume that this means several days if not even a couple of weeks have elapsed between episodes!

      😀

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    110. kit_hepburn: I thought that was a reference to the fact that he’s in King’s Landing in Episode 6 (apparently) but already in Riverrun dealing with a siege in Episode 7 and 8. I guess if you add to it that he then ALSO goes somewhere else by Episode 10,taken together it does seem like he might have a trusty Littlefinger Jetpack. But I didn’t necessarily think that meant he’s going far, FAR away between Episodes 8 and 10. Again, maybe he is, I just didn’t think the description was that specific.

      It was. He mentioned what I said about Jaime using Littlefinger’s jetpack. He was asked what he meant, and explained pretty much what Sue did; that he’d be well out of Riverrun by the end of the season. I mean, it’s not like he’s going to Essos or anything in two episodes. He’s going from the capital of the Riverlands to that of the North, which are adjacent kindgoms, in a few episodes. It’s not that far away; but it’s the kind of thing silly people with no concept of time elapsing between scenes and episodes call a “jetpack”.

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    111. Sean C.: I don’t know how you got to that from my post (redemption). Littlefinger is fixated on Sansa as both a political pawn and as the embodiment of his lost childhood dreams;

      sorry, my answer was kind of condensing the input of a number of prior comments regarding Sansa/Littlefinger. I like your viewpoint that “the degree to which he has destroyed her life in order to make her his is one of the more damning things about him.” That’s my viewpoint as well – I mentioned redemption because some posters were wondering if there was actually something good about LF and he was secretly doing good deeds. My opinion of that is a resounding no.

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    112. Wimsey,

      But in a lot of ways, Littlefinger is the Severus Snape of Game of Thrones.

      That is a great comparison to a certain extent I agree. Snape works for Dumbledore, LF only works for himself. Snape truly loved Lily, LF only craved that which he could not have – Catelyn – and then manipulated her sister and so on – we know the rest the story (key points). That is not real love and I doubt we are going to see a poignant scene as the one we see at the end of Deathly Hallows. LF is ruthless and a sociopath.

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    113. Wimsey:

      There is no reason to think that LF considers Jon to be anything other than Ned’s bastard.There are a couple of chances for LF to tease Ned with hints that he (LF) knows the truth when they are discussing Robert’s bastards, but LF never hints that he considers Jon to be anything other than Ned’s.

      Is this still true in the show universe? Because the first hints we hear of R+L=J comes from Petyr and his talk with Sansa in the Winterfell crips. I don’t know about Book Petyr, but I think Show Petyr knows about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son.

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    114. Luka Nieto:He’s going from the capital of the Riverlands to that of the North, which are adjacent kindgoms, in a few episodes.

      Was it specifically stated that he was going North? Is there a possibility that he simply goes back to Kings Landing?

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    115. Luka Nieto: It was. He mentioned what I said about Jaime using Littlefinger’s jetpack. He was asked what he meant, and explained pretty much what Sue did; that he’d be well out of Riverrun by the end of the season

      I compare the speed of travel of Littlefinger traveling quickly with his little group of guards as opposed to the months it took Robert and Cersei to go north to someone having to buy something at a Superstore and going by themselves or going with an entourage of spouse, children and hired help. You’ll get done quickly by yourself, but the entourage will slow you down considerably. Did that make any sense?

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    116. Luka Nieto,

      Littlefinger’s jetpack would probably be between King’s Landing and Riverrun, from episodes 6 to 7, or maybe going to the Twins to retrieve a prisoner (Edmure ?)
      The problem with Jaime and Brienne going from Riverrun to Winterfell isn’t the length of the trip. It’s the risk. It seems awfully dangerous for two people on their own. How the hell would they cross the Neck and Bolton territory (I guess Moat Cailin would still be Bolton territory at this point) to join Sansa ? Unless you say they have a ship ? Or men-at-arms ?

      Wimsey,

      Granted, Brienne doesn’t do much but she still is a very important character. LSH resonates throughout the whole book, but neither Brienne nor Jaime (generally unobservant people) seem to take the hint that their is some sort of vigilante out there. By hanging the heir to the Twins, LSH creates tensions between Edwyn Frey and Black Walder, members of one of the most iconic houses in the Riverlands, which could eventually lead to bloodshed. What’s more, the Blackfish’s and possibly Jeyne Westering’s escapes, put together with the infiltration of the siege of Riverrun by Tom o’Sevens, could be linked to LSH as well. Additionnally, without LSH Brienne doesn’t have to choose between her loyalty towards Catelyn and her loyalty towards Jaime. The choice isn’t explicit, but she does make it when her and Podrick’s lives are at stake.
      Pretty much anything that happens in the Riverlands (except for Brienne’s boring journey where nothing happens and Jaime’s parley with the Blackfish) is linked to LSH.
      It doesn’t matter if a character isn’t mentioned by name, or even appears at all. LSH is very important to Brienne and Jaime’s plot in the Riverlands.

      By the way, saying that people understood what happened in season 5 isn’t an argument. Season 5 adapted little and less from a Feast for Crows (apart from Cersei’s chapters) and was mostly filler, A Dance with Dragons, The Winds of Winter or invented subplots. If you want to include the Riverlands in season 6, you have to include LSH.

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    117. Moosse Bolton: Granted, Brienne doesn’t do much but she still is a very important character.

      No, Brienne really is not. One, she’s only a protagonist for the first time in Crows/Dragons. She is not going to be one of the important characters in the endgame, as only the characters that we have seen evolve from Thrones -> Spring really can be. Moreover, Brienne’s contribution to the “Kill the Child” story is completely opaque. LSH did nothing to clarify that contribution, and thus is not important. (And, yes, to be important, an element must do that.)

      Moosse Bolton: LSH resonates throughout the whole book, but neither Brienne nor Jaime (generally unobservant people) seem to take the hint that their is some sort of vigilante out there.

      That is a trivial plot detail that never has any effect on the story. Never once does this cause Brienne or Jaime (or anyone else) to stop and take stock of who they were, who they want to be or who they need to be.

      Moosse Bolton: It doesn’t matter if a character isn’t mentioned by name, or even appears at all. LSH is very important to Brienne and Jaime’s plot in the Riverlands.

      Again, no she was not. Look at how much more effectively the TV show communicated both characters contributions to the “Kill the Boy” story without any of this. Basically, this was little more than gratuitous world-building that never steered any important character anywhere. A story is a forest: and LSH is not even a tree in the forest so much as a clump of dying scrub, at least insofar as the Crows/Dragons story is concerned. (I do not hold out much hope that she’ll be too relevant at all as I think it improbable that she will cause any major character evolution in the 5 or 6 truly important characters.)

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    118. Wimsey,

      LSH did make Brienne evolve. Brienne wants to behave as a knight, yet she serves whatever lord she fancies. And that’s pretty much what she has been doing during the whole story. At last she is confronted to a decision where he has to choose between the woman he swore to protect and the man she fancies. And she makes that choice. Off-screen, but still, she makes it. She stops behaving like a teenage girl. Jaime deserves to die. Even if LSH is a monster, out of all the people she has targeted, Jaime deserves to die the most. By making that choice, she finally takes her vows seriously. She may consider that as dishonorable, but she already stained her honor by befriending Ser Jaime, her prisoner.

      When Brienne appears in Jaime’s POV in Dance, she is extremely different. She even looks much more older than she was.
      If we actually have a Brienne POV chapter in Winds, I believe she will be another person completely.

      Yes, I agree with you that she probably won’t be relevant in the long game, but GRRM still gave her a point of view. Therefore, she is one of the main characters of a Feast for Crows, whether you like it or not.

      By using your “forest metaphor”, I would say that LSH would be the soil. A background, really, but she is essential to keeping everything in place.

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    119. I both agree that Lady Stoneheart is essential to the development of Brienne and Jaime’s characters in the book, and yet also agree that she’s replaceable in the show. She’s a catalyst to facilitate the two of them coming back together in a manner riddled with conflict, nothing more. And I’m pretty sure the outcome is that the situation causes them both to realize the depth of their loyalty/feelings for each other (I don’t think they’re dying yet, either of them), so she can be substituted with any myriad of things in that regard. I honestly barely think she has a function otherwise, unless she’s also connected to Arya later on, which is a possibility.

      Luka Nieto,

      He’s going from the capital of the Riverlands to that of the North, which are adjacent kindgoms, in a few episodes. It’s not that far away; but it’s the kind of thing silly people with no concept of time elapsing between scenes and episodes call a “jetpack”.

      I’m sorry, I feel a little dense. I understand how it can be interpreted that he’s going “far” from the Riverlands, but where exactly was it confirmed that he’s going North to Winterfell? I understand it as a theory or a speculation, but were those words literally confirmed? “Jetpack” does not confirm that for me.

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    120. Moosse Bolton:
      Wimsey,

      At last she is confronted to a decision where he has to choose between the woman he swore to protect and the man she fancies. And she makes that choice. Off-screen, but still, she makes it. She stops behaving like a teenage girl. Jaime deserves to die. Even if LSH is a monster, out of all the people she has targeted, Jaime deserves to die the most. By making that choice, she finally takes her vows seriously. She may consider that as dishonorable, but she already stained her honor by befriending Ser Jaime, her prisoner.

      Lol. I really wouldn’t assume that this is what is happening at all, precisely for the reason you stated – it happens “offscreen.” It’s also probably why LSH isn’t in the show – what you think is happening is not what is actually happening. But I guess that’s a conversation for a thread strictly about the books. We’ll see what the show does with the situation and go from there I guess.

      (Ummm, sorry, I tried to edit my previous post and it made two posts back to back for some reason. My bad!)

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    121. Wimsey:

      But, as to where LF fits into Sansa’s part of the story, well, one of the big mysteries of the series is: what is LF’s role?I think that we can safely dismiss the old idea that he’s actually working for the White Walkers.I think that we can also dismiss the old idea that he’s harboring Rhaegar’s long-lost son and hoping to restore the Targaryeans:

      My crackpot theory is that LF is somehow affiliated with/working for Braavos. He mentions his Braavosi ancestry in the show, he was master of coin during Robert’s and KL’s decent into debt to the Iron Bank, and the fingers are located on the northeastern shore of Westeros, not far from Braavos. I also think his ties to Braavos might mirror Varys’ ties to the dragons of Essos… and there is that whole historic Braavos/Valaryia rivalry.

      North/HOBAW/Death/WWs/Ice;
      South/Rholler/Life/Dragons/Fire.

      What is dead may never die. Until it has been kissed by fire.

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    122. Luka Nieto:
      As for her motivations, you always bring that up and I can’t even believe you could say that, honestly. As far as she is concerned, the Lannisters are as responsible for the murder of her whole family as the Boltons and the Freys. And she knows for a fact Jaime personally threw Bran out of a window and commanded armies against Robb. What more motivation could she need? Honestly…

      I doubt Sansa has any positive feelings toward Jaime, but he is not on her radar. Having her suddenly demand that he brought to her would be completely out of nowhere.

      Sansa has no idea that he threw Bran out a window.

      Wimsey:
      Moreover, Brienne’s contribution to the “Kill the Child” story is completely opaque.LSH did nothing to clarify that contribution, and thus is not important.(And, yes, to be important, an element must do that.)

      If you continue to insist on reducing the entire story to one phrase, how Brienne’s story fits into that phrase should be pretty damn obvious. Hers is a classic take on a young woman fighting to uphold her ideals in a hellish world, and being brought to a point where she has to make the same sort of choice that she heard about from Jaime, who is struggling with a resurgence of the same knightly idealism. LSH is absolutely central to that.

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    123. Wimsey:

      That is a trivial plot detail that never has any effect on the story.Never once does this cause Brienne or Jaime (or anyone else) to stop and take stock of who they were, who they want to be or who they need to be.

      Again, no she was not.Look at how much more effectively the TV show communicated both characters contributions to the “Kill the Boy” story without any of this.Basically, this was little more than gratuitous world-building that never steered any important character anywhere.A story is a forest: and LSH is not even a tree in the forest so much as a clump of dying scrub, at least insofar as the Crows/Dragons story is concerned. (I do not hold out much hope that she’ll be too relevant at all as I think it improbable that she will cause any major character evolution in the 5 or 6 truly important characters.)

      We do not yet know the ramifications of the LSH/Brienne/Jaime tea party. I would wager that Brienne and Jaime will be quite effected by the experience, should they make it out alive.

      Also, it seems as though up to this point LSH’s role has been exacting vengeance and doling out punishment to the Frey’s for their violations of guest rights. I wonder how this will parallel any age old treaty violations between AA/WWs, if that is what this whole war is indeed about, cause you know- storytelling and all that.

      I think you may be underestimating LSH’s future. She may have been a gratuitous addition to Storm, and she may just not have been relevant enough yet in Crows/Dance era, but I could see GRRM using her in all kinds of fun ways in the upcoming books. I am hoping LSH and undead Jon will have tea at some point. I think they need closure. Perhaps she and Aria will cross paths as well. And I have a feeling Bran will be in the know. These are three of your fab 5, or 6… all we need is 1!

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    124. kit_hepburn,

      Ummm… Can’t see how you could interpret what happened differently.
      LSH gives Brienne a choice : sword (Jaime) or noose (hanging). LSH “hangs” Brienne and Pod, Brienne screams out a word, GRRM stated that the word was indeed “sword”.
      She did that to save Podrick’s life. Jaime deserves to die, Podrick doesn’t. Why should Brienne and Pod die for a Kingslayer ?
      Therefore, her part in the “deal” is to bring Jaime to LSH.
      We know from aDwD that she purposely lies to Jaime as to where exactly they’re going, so she has no intention, at least from what we saw, to tell him all about it until they are at the cave.

      Even if she doesn’t actually think or say all of that, it pretty obvious that this is more or less what happens inside her head.

      If you don’t think so, I would gladly hear your take on that matter.

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    125. My guess is LF ultimately intends to sit the IT. He has the Vale, is Lord paramount of Harrnehal and the RL, and if he gets the North through Sansa he can easily march on KL as he’ll have 70% of Westeros at his back. Not that this’ll happen of course but I reckon that’s his aim. He keeps banging on about this ladder- he wants to get to the top.

      Wimsey: That statement is not entirely true!LF purposely married Sansa off to someone who turned out to be a psychopath: but LF did not know that.Remember, LF is not omniscient, only well-informed: and the Boltons are very good at keeping secrets.Moreover, LF really is very well-informed only about stuff that one can learn in Kings Landing, where his spy network and brothels keep him very well-informed indeed.As both show and books make plain, the north is a bit of a mystery to the Southerners: the northerners are widely spread out, have a very different culture, and simply do not interact too much with the lower 6 kingdoms.And the Boltons managed to keep Ramsay secret from Ned Stark (who certainly would not have tolerated that in his “duchy.”)

      But, as to where LF fits into Sansa’s part of the story, well, one of the big mysteries of the series is: what is LF’s role?I think that we can safely dismiss the old idea that he’s actually working for the White Walkers.I think that we can also dismiss the old idea that he’s harboring Rhaegar’s long-lost son and hoping to restore the Targaryeans:

      Those were the two most popular pre-Crows ideas that I remember, and I have not seen any good ones arise since then.

      But in a lot of ways, Littlefinger is the Severus Snape of Game of Thrones.

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    126. kit_hepburn,
      RosanaZugey,

      It’s just my speculation. Javi’s jab at the show for having Jaime travel far very fast (which is what the “jetpack” idea means) could mean many things —Winterfell, King’s Landing… anywhere, really, except somewhere close to Riverrun, or Javi wouldn’t have made that “jetpack” comment. Personally, I think it’ll be Winterfell, because I believe Sansa will serve as LSH, plot-wise.

      Moosse Bolton: How the hell would they cross the Neck and Bolton territory (I guess Moat Cailin would still be Bolton territory at this point) to join Sansa ?

      If Littlefinger does anything with his Vale army this season, and if he follows up on his promise to use it to invade the North, he’ll have to take Moat Cailin. So by that time Brienne and Jaime would pass through allies, not enemies.

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    127. Sean C.: I doubt Sansa has any positive feelings toward Jaime, but he is not on her radar. Having her suddenly demand that he brought to her would be completely out of nowhere.

      I did explain that. If Brienne explains who sent her on this quest and her relationship with Jaime, Sansa will be able to see how useful she could be to capture him. So it wouldn’t be Sansa who brings up Jaime, but Brienne. And Brienne would have to prove she is 100% loyal to her and not at all to Jaime by lying to him and taking him to Sansa. Just as in the books, except that was LSH.

      Sean C.:
      Sansa has no idea that he threw Bran out a window.

      Probably not… yet. Though it wasn’t a secret by the time of the war, and propaganda (true or not) travels fast, she was a prisoner in King’s Landing, so I take your point. However, Sansa will be surrounded by hundreds of Northerners who DO know that, by this point. One of them would probably bring this up and Jaime’s many other crimes against the Starks when Brienne says it was him who sent her on this quest. But anyway, that was just one of the many reasons. Why you didn’t address the others? Jaime is an enemy who injured her father and killed Jory; he led armies against her brother; and he’s currently sieging her only remaning family’s stronghold. Honestly, do you really think she needs any more personal stakes? It’s not just vengeance, either —in the short term, leaving the siege without a competent leader is strategically a great idea; it also proves Brienne’s loyalty, as I explained (that’d be the clearest LSH paralel); and in the long run, a Lannister prisoner is pretty great too, unless she wants to execute him.

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    128. Oh, what a fascinating LF discussion – thanks folks!

      Because I always feel the need to add two cents, in case I call it all perfectly I can come back to this post and gloat to myself…

      No, LF doesn’t equal Snape
      I adored Snape, was 100% positive he was a “good guy” thanks to Rowling’s writing… I was as sure in my guts about Snape being a “good guy” as I am that Ned never sired a bastard. But Sansa is still that potential Achilles heel of his… a woman that reminds him of Cat, that he doesn’t think is a threat. Hope that pays off… 🙂

      What will LF do this season?
      Hopefully not a lot. I’d like him be AWOL, maybe a mention once or twice – until episode… 9? Then for him to show up with a Vale army at the end of

      Snowbowl

      … on a horse, looking all Aiden/smarmy as Robin “leads” the only intact army around the battlefield to do cleanup.

      Will he know where Sansa is/has been until that point? Maybe not, but he will ooze lines to her about how he did know. Unless Sansa finds him and the army on the way… she could charm/steal his army and use it to

      support Jon’s side, when otherwise LF would have waited the fight out?

      Nah, I’m sticking with my first vision.

      What is LF’s End Game and motivation?
      He’s easy – he just likes playing the game, and wants to win it. Dany wants to break the wheel, well he wants to maintain it, float on top, watching all the high lords get trampled under it with revenge/satisfaction. He was obsessed with Cat… and Sansa is a good distraction, but his #1 obsession is the game, the ladder, the chaos, the war, the clash, the feast, the storm, the dance.

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    129. I hate to say it but they really should have considered replacing isaac hempstead wright with a younger looking guy , he is nothing like the Bran we last saw , unless he is supposed to have been hidden under that tree on the hill for several years..

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    130. Sister Kisser: Perhaps she and Aria will cross paths as well. And I have a feeling Bran will be in the know. These are three of your fab 5, or 6… all we need is 1!

      It will only contribute if it contributes to whatever identity crisis all of the members of the Big 5 (or 6) are suffering in a particular story. But I really doubt that she’ll ever sit down with Jon, or that Jon will even learn of her: it is not like LSH’s feelings towards him are apt to have improved, anyway! Bran might learn of her, but it will be just another detail. Indeed, he could easily learn of her without learning what she is. Arya probably has the single greatest chance of encountering her: but will it really be an important brick in the wall come the climax of the over-arching story?

      ladywolfsbane: No, LF doesn’t equal Snape

      LF is the Snape equivalent in that LF’s ultimate motivations are the least clear of all the secondary characters. And I would add that there are a LOT of hardcore Harry Potter fans who were convinced that Snape was “evil.” Now, this probably tells us more about “hardcores” than about JKR’s writing: but it nevertheless was not 100% obvious why Snape was what he was. (It should have been: Dumbledore basically tells Harry via disjunctive syllogism that Snape did it all for Harry’s mother, but some people would not see it!)

      Now, is Littlefinger just some Loki character intent on sewing chaos everywhere? That is possible, and to be honest, it is far from the worst suggestion that remains viable. I still find it unsatisfying: but I cannot criticize it as I cannot offer a better alternative. Still, I do suspect (or perhaps am just hoping at this point) that GRRM has some “Lily” that has been hidden in plain sight all along that explains why Littlefinger is such a Loki.

      (Oh, and there is a very good chance that Ned did sire a bastard: just not Jon! Being Ned, he probably clung to one truth in order to make a falsehood easier to regurgitate. He probably dissembled a lot more than he lied.)

      smitzzz: he is nothing like the Bran we last saw , unless he is supposed to have been hidden under that tree on the hill for several years..

      Well, not several years, but probably the better part of one year. Again, every time they reference time in the show, they make it clear that many months elapse over each season. A big reason for this is that they cannot hide the fact that they young cast members look nothing like they did 6 years ago. Indeed, they recast Tommen with someone a little older than the original “stand-in.”

      Basically, every time you think: “how did they get from X to Y so quickly?” replace that with “OK, at least a week or so has just elapsed” and it all fits quite well.

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    131. Wimsey,

      I should have maybe left chaos of my list, (I don’t like to think of him as a Loki either) but LF lives to see the powerful families fall from a safe and lofty vantage point. Better than sex and true Iron Throne power, is to see the elite fall. The true obsession would have been Cat if she’d been willing to abandon the Tully “Family, Duty, Honour” but she didn’t, so it’s more about the system that crushed his dreams of Cat.

      OMG now that I type this it sums it up nicely – LF motivation is the exactly the opposite of the Tully motto. His Mockingbird mocks the Tullys, and the idea that his crest IS a Mockingbird mocks the entire system of families and heraldry. Hmmm.. what should LF use as his motto…

      The way YOU (and pretty much only you) compare LF to Snape though, I happily agree with, he’s the most unclear. Dumbledore had to be right… duh… or Harry’s mentor was an idiot. How could the mentor be so wrong? Harry Potter isn’t the Star Wars prequels or the Phoenix Saga…

      I’m still 100% confident Ned didn’t sire a bastard. He wanted to, he stayed true, he didn’t, she died. 🙂 GRRM prove me wrong! 🙂

      Sidenote – I adore Loki too. And Spike from Buffy. And Sherlock Homes, Snape. *sigh* I think I have an serious, unhealthy obsession with quasi-evil men with accents…

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    132. Moosse Bolton:
      kit_hepburn,

      Even if [Brienne] doesn’t actually think or say all of that, it pretty obvious that this is more or less what happens inside her head.

      If you don’t think so, I would gladly hear your take on that matter.

      Sure, I’ll bite.

      I certainly interpret what happened differently, because George has pulled this trick about a million times already. He provides the reader with only the barest amount of information that leaves you to make an assumption, to fill in the blanks with information he never provided, and it is often the incorrect information. Catelyn borrows a sword from Brienne at the end of ACoK (to kill Jaime?), Davos is dead at the end of the same book (he’s not, j/k!), Theon jumps from Winterfell (to his death?!), Jon is murdered and dead and gone for good at the end of ADwD (lol)… I could go on. This is no different.

      Even in you wrote, your explanation is filled with half truths and half assumptions:

      LSH gives Brienne a choice : sword (Jaime) or noose (hanging). LSH “hangs” Brienne and Pod, Brienne screams out a word, GRRM stated that the word was indeed “sword”.

      Truths. Yes, these are things that we know.

      She did that to save Podrick’s life. Jaime deserves to die, Podrick doesn’t. Why should Brienne and Pod die for a Kingslayer ?
      Therefore, her part in the “deal” is to bring Jaime to LSH.

      The first sentence here is likely a truth. Beyond that? NO. Assumptions. The last thing we read of Brienne’s thought process (and indeed even some of the things she says outloud) is that

      Jaime doesn’t deserve to die. That he had nothing to do with the Red Wedding and that he’s not the man he was. And also that she can’t fail him. He gave her a sword and called it Oathkeeper. The thought of failing Jaime absolutely guts Brienne.

      We never get one iota, not one scrap of information between the time Brienne yells out and the time that she comes to get Jaime that SHE HERSELF intends to “trade” Jaime for Pod. We don’t know what happens a minute after she’s cut down. We don’t know what happens the hour after she’s cut down. We don’t know what happens the day after she’s cut down. We don’t even know her *thoughts* after she’s cut down. We only know that when last she thought about Jaime, she knew she wouldn’t make that choice to kill him. Brienne calling out “sword” is a necessary thing she had to do to save her life and the life of Pod. LS is a monster hanging an innocent child. You think Brienne, who has heard Jaime’s bathtub monologue about Aerys (of whom LSH is a ridiculously accurate parallel for Brienne, btw), and who has undergone eight chapters of character development about not seeing the world in black and white, wouldn’t comprehend that calling out SWORD, that pretending to undertake a vow to save a child’s life (and her own in the process) isn’t actually the right thing to do? And yes, that’s what I’m suggesting – there’s no way Brienne is going to honour any oaths to this shade of Catelyn. She knows she’s not Catelyn – she’s a monster. She’s not agreeing to trade anybody by calling out “sword” – she’s only making them think she is.

      [spoiler]We know from aDwD that she purposely lies to Jaime as to where exactly they’re going, so she has no intention, at least from what we saw, to tell him all about it until they are at the cave.

      Again, what you’ve done here is exactly what George RR Martin wanted you to do. You assumed a series of things, based on one piece of information that we have. Yes, we know (or at least can strongly, strongly infer) that Brienne lies to Jaime about where they are going. That’s all we know. We don’t know why she lies. I’ll tell you what else we don’t know – we don’t know what happens five minutes after Brienne tells this lie. We don’t read Jaime’s thoughts and reactions to what she says because the chapter purposely stops. We don’t read Brienne’s thoughts at all because it’s not in her point of view. Does that not strike you as insanely deliberate, that we don’t have one single thought from Brienne from the moment she calls out her word? It’s because if we read her thoughts, they would be spoilers as to her actual intentions. We hear later on that Jaime has in fact gone with her, alone, and that they have now been missing for a few weeks. Again, that’s all we know.

      Everyone assumes that

      Brienne is taking Jaime to Stoneheart based on the little information we have immediately surrounding Brienne’s last moments in AFFC, and their very short exchange in ADwD. George wants us to assume this. He relies on the fact that readers will ignore all of the character development that both Brienne and Jaime have undergone and will only look at this incident in isolation. However, I am suggesting that the text is actually telling us that Brienne swore her sword to save Pod, but has absolutely no intention of selling out Jaime to the BwB. Far more likely is that she’s going to try and save everyone, Jaime included, and that she knowingly swore a false oath to accomplish this. Brienne is in love with Jaime the way she was with Renly (I could pull textual evidence here, but it would literally take all day, there’s that much of it). Renly dying in her arms nearly destroyed her. She will try to save Jaime, even if it means that she swore a false oath. Brienne is making LS and the BwB think she is going to get Jaime and bring him back to them (or kill him), but I think it’s far more likely that she takes off with him in the opposite direction and tries to shield him from harm (as long as they aren’t captured by the BwB first, which is a possibility).

      But, you may ask, what about Pod? Isn’t she supposed to trade Jaime for him? Uh, no? That is, we don’t know that. It’s another tremendous assumption. Maybe that was the BwBs intention. Maybe not. We don’t even know where Pod is. He could be dead. If he’s alive, maybe Brienne has already gotten him away from them. Maybe she has reason to believe he’ll be safe. Maybe she’s going to find some other way to rescue him without sacrificing Jaime. Maybe Pod isn’t even a factor anymore. Maybe Lady Stoneheart is already DEAD when Brienne goes to get Jaime…

      My point is, we have no information on any of these fronts. NONE. We are only left to infer. And I think most of us have been making our inferences using the wrong information. Each passing year when D&D (who actually know what’s happening in the story) choose to exclude LSH proves this to me more and more. What we think is happening is not what is actually happening.

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    133. Pigeon,
      Thank you so much!

      And Sue the Fury, I apologize, but I tried to work with the spoiler tags right up until my editing time ran out and quite a few of them are messed up or missing on my previous post.

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    134. kit_hepburn,

      Yes, I agree with you that we have little information as to what exactly goes on in those chapters, and maybe GRRM wants us to believe what we are lead to believe for the sake of another big plot twist, but we don’t have any alternate version of what happens that makes sense.
      LSH is in no way a parallel to Aerys. Aerys was insane, delusional and psychotic. He enjoyed seeing people burn for no reason. LSH is cold, calculating and what you may call a psychopath. She doesn’t enjoy what she does.
      The people she murdered may have been innocent, but they still were important to the people who wronged her. Brienne wronged her by refusing to go after Jaime, Podrick is her travelling companion, therefore Podrick has to die. Petyr and Merrett Frey were innocent as well, but they still have an emotional value to Walder Frey. What’s more, they knew about the Red Wedding but still didn’t even protest nor try to stop it from happening, therefore they are guilty in a certain way, they have to die. Several members of the Frey family left the Twins before the Red Wedding, as they would not betray their own blood or their King.
      You say that Brienne thinks that Jaime does not deserve to die : actually, Jaime 2.0 doesn’t. Jaime 1.0 does. As Stannis the Mannis would put it : “A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.” Jaime has done far more bad than good, even Brienne can figure that out, even if she is somewhat blinded by her love.
      Even if Brienne thinks that Catelyn’s death releases her from her oath, then she still has to bring Jaime for Podrick’s sake. Does Brienne have a rescue plan in mind for Podrick ? How would she make that happen ? Wouldn’t she have told the truth to Jaime if that was the case ? Anyway, it seems quite unlikely to succeed.
      Besides, if Podrick is dead, why did she even agree to the deal ? Because she wants to save Jaime’s life ? Really ? Do you really think that without Brienne Lady Stoneheart could capture the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard ? Jaime travels with more than enough men to protect him from a band of outlaws. I mean, hanging a bunch of Freys is something, but Jaime fookin’ Lannister ? No way the BwB could pull that off.
      Brienne is ESSENTIAL to luring Jaime away from his men. Dragging him alone in the wilderness is precisely what Lady Stoneheart wants.
      Okay, let’s assume Brienne loves Jaime the way she loved Renly. She would have died for Renly, so I don’t see why she would not have chosen death over hiding with Jaime in the woods or whatever. Her death would make it near impossible for Lady Stoneheart to ever lay her hands on Jaime. Brienne would never swear a false oath, and then unnecessarily put Jaime into danger, even if she’s not the brightest person out there. It’s counter-productive.

      And how would she have gotten Podrick away from the outlaws ? She is unarmed, probably unconscious, and surrounded.
      Finally, even if Lady Stoneheart was dead and somehow Brienne killed her and left with Podrick, then Jaime is perfectly safe without her. If anything, Brienne would point the outlaws in the right direction by looking for Jaime. What’s more, Thoros of Myr or whoever the new leader of the BwB would be holds no grudge against Jaime. They could still ransom him for the gold, but again I don’t see how they would take him into custody anyway.

      You can see that it’s far more likely that Brienne has honestly agreed to the deal, which is the most reasonable thing to do. Maybe Jaime will be able to trick Lady Stoneheart, or talk his way out of this. However, Brienne is not going to double-cross her. Even if LSH is a monster, objectively, Jaime has to die.

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    135. ladywolfsbane: I’m still 100% confident Ned didn’t sire a bastard. He wanted to, he stayed true, he didn’t, she died.

      Well, the question is whether he or his brother sired Ashara Dayne’s daughter. My thought is that it was Ned, and that Ned was telling the truth when he said that he had dishonored his marriage vows. For someone like Ned (who really would be happiest being a moral absolutist), it would be easier to tell partial truths in misleading ways than to flat out lie. Yes, he broke his marriage vows. Yes, he fathered a bastard. Yes, Jon is of his blood and is to be treated like Ned’s son. No, he will not say with whom he broke his vows, or who Jon’s mother is. All of these things can be true statements, but falsely lead people to think that Ned is referring to one woman (the one with whom he broke his vows and Jon’s mother) and one child (the bastard he sired and Jon) when there actually are two women and two children making all of those things “true.”

      And, yes, I should re-emphasize that my comparison of Littlefinger to Snape is purely a storytelling comparison. They occupy similar enigmas. In one case, it turned out to be a simple “truth” that explained everything Snape did. I suspect that GRRM will do something similar with LF: we just not have had a Dumbledore analog lay it out for us.

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    136. Wimsey: Well, the question is whether he or his brother sired Ashara Dayne’s daughter.My thought is that it was Ned, and that Ned was telling the truth when he said that he had dishonored his marriage vows.For someone like Ned (who really would be happiest being a moral absolutist), it would be easier to tell partial truths in misleading ways than to flat out lie.Yes, he broke his marriage vows.Yes, he fathered a bastard.Yes, Jon is of his blood and is to be treated like Ned’s son.No, he will not say with whom he broke his vows, or who Jon’s mother is.All of these things can be true statements, but falsely lead people to think that Ned is referring to one woman (the one with whom he broke his vows and Jon’s mother) and one child (the bastard he sired and Jon) when there actually are two women and two children making all of those things “true.”

      That’s simply not possible. The only opportunity Ned would have had to sleep with Ashara Dayne was at the Harrenhal Tourney, well before he was married.

      Lady Dustin’s story in ADWD is a pretty clear indicator that the “Stark” that Selmy refers to was Brandon. There’s absolutely nothing in Ned’s thoughts suggesting any connection with Ashara.

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    137. Moosse Bolton:
      kit_hepburn,

      LSH is in no way a parallel to Aerys.

      LSH is 100% a parallel to Aerys for Brienne.

      Full-stop. No debating it. It’s so obvious that I’m also convinced that D&D didn’t do it because it’s too flipping identical (and George LOVES his mirroring scenarios, and having the same thing play out multiple times in the story – D&D try to cut down on this when they can). Brienne swore an oath to her. She later asks Brienne to bring her Jaime’s head. She then punishes the innocent. And the only way Brienne can get out of the situation is by being “dishonourable.” You can pick apart the nuances of why Aerys and LSH’s characters are different, but it doesn’t matter; LSH is Brienne’s Aerys. It’s not subtle.

      Jaime has done far more bad than good, even Brienne can figure that out, even if she is somewhat blinded by her love.

      Brienne has not had one thought in AFFC that even somewhat telegraphs her

      “figuring out” that Jaime deserves to die. All of her thoughts are about not failing him, or stem from her (still somewhat repressed) love for him. You assume that she has “figured out” that Jaime has done more bad than good and therefore deserves to die somewhere in between the other thoughts we’ve been getting and for some reason were not privvy to them (even though they would require a radical, radical shift in Brienne’s thinking as GRRM has written it so far). I don’t think that’s what GRRM intends, as it renders his careful construction of Brienne’s thought process in AFFC totally moot.
      Even if Brienne thinks that Catelyn’s death releases her from her oath, then she still has to bring Jaime for Podrick’s sake. Does Brienne have a rescue plan in mind for Podrick ? How would she make that happen ? Wouldn’t she have told the truth to Jaime if that was the case ? Anyway, it seems quite unlikely to succeed.

      Again, do you know where

      Podrick is? Do you know what has happened to him with certainty? As for the second part, do you know what happened five minutes after Brienne first speaks to Jaime? Do you know that she doesn’t tell him the truth? Do you know that he doesn’t figure out she’s lying?

      No, none of us know. These are huge gaps of information left to tease us, deliberately.

      Because she wants to

      save Jaime’s life ? Really ? Do you really think that without Brienne Lady Stoneheart could capture the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard ? Jaime travels with more than enough men to protect him from a band of outlaws. I mean, hanging a bunch of Freys is something, but Jaime fookin’ Lannister ? No way the BwB could pull that off.
      Brienne is ESSENTIAL to luring Jaime away from his men. Dragging him alone in the wilderness is precisely what Lady Stoneheart wants.

      And YET, the BwB had a spy right in front of Jaime’s nose that he did not know about (the singer, Tom O’Sevenstreams). The text is littered with foreboding that Jaime’s life is in danger. The Brotherhood has actually been able to get very close to him. (And there is also the Blackfish, who is still a massive wild card probably roaming around out there as well). So why do they need Brienne? Do I think it’s possible that they are using Brienne to lure him away from his men at Pennytree? Perhaps. But I think it’s just one option. And I think there’s less than a snowball’s chance in hell that she’s actually going to lead him into danger if she can help it, even if her hand is really and truly being forced.

      Okay, let’s assume Brienne loves Jaime the way she loved Renly. She would have died for Renly,

      so I don’t see why she would not have chosen death over hiding with Jaime in the woods or whatever. Her death would make it near impossible for Lady Stoneheart to ever lay her hands on Jaime. Brienne would never swear a false oath, and then unnecessarily put Jaime into danger, even if she’s not the brightest person out there. It’s counter-productive.

      Well seeing as George makes sure to

      get Brienne to have a rather important confession with the Elder Brother on Quiet Isle where he tells her not to die, not to be a casualty of this stupid war, this is probably something that is on her mind. I think part of her character development is indeed to realize that dying for a cause is not necessarily the best course of action. However, I think we can still use textual evidence to assume that her life would be the least important to her of the lives she’s trying to save. And again, do you know for certain that she’s putting his life in danger by taking him away from his camp? I don’t mean to sound like a broken record, but again: the Brotherhood has in fact already managed to get on the inside of Jaime’s camp. Do we know what they’re planning on a larger scale? Do we know what Brienne has heard through the grapevine? Do we know Jaime is safer inside his camp than out at the moment Brienne comes to get him. No.

      And how would she have gotten Podrick

      away from the outlaws ? She is unarmed, probably unconscious, and surrounded.
      Finally, even if Lady Stoneheart was dead and somehow Brienne killed her andleft with Podrick, then Jaime is perfectly safe without her. If anything, Brienne would point the outlaws in the right direction by looking for Jaime. What’s more, Thoros of Myr or whoever the new leader of the BwB would be holds no grudge against Jaime. They could still ransom him for the gold, but again I don’t see how they would take him into custody anyway.
      You can see that it’s far more likely that Brienne has honestly agreed to the deal, which is the most reasonable thing to do.

      First of all, Brienne

      is not unarmed when she comes for Jaime in ADwD. She has Oathkeeper on her.

      And what deal? If there was a deal made, I certainly did not see/read the terms of it. We know Brienne calls out sword because she desperately assumes this will cause the BwB to cut down both her and Pod (as reasonable assumption), but we see literally nothing else. We hear, literally nothing else. I didn’t say that LSH is for sure dead, I just said it’s one possibility. That’s the problem – there’s a deliberate, gaping, GIANT hole you could drive a truck through right in the middle of the narrative. How much time has even passed? We don’t even know that.

      Maybe Jaime will be able to trick

      Lady Stoneheart, or talk his way out of this. However, Brienne is not going to double-cross her. Even if LSH is a monster, objectively, Jaime has to die.

      Jaime has to do nothing of the kind, and Brienne is hardly going to be the one to make that determination

      at the behest of a group of outlaws who saw fit to hang her and an innocent child (after she had saved a bunch of children at an orphanage no less – seriously, they are being assholes). And there’s the rub – LSH wants to send an innocent kid accused of something he did not do to die. Jaime want Brienne to find an innocent kid accused of something she did not do to protect her. He even inadvertently confirms this for her when she comes for him at Pennytree with his concern for whether Sansa has been found. If Brienne’s loyalty is not squarely with Jaime at that point in the story, then GRRM has really spent 17 chapters between the two of them developing them for NOTHING (which is not what is happening).

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    138. Sean C.,

      I think it was Brandon. I’m even not saying Ned wouldn’t have, he may have loved Ashara that much (and clearly his brother and sister weren’t above sleeping with the most inappropriate of people)… maybe she didn’t love him back, maybe he didn’t have the opportunity. Ashara in fact hooked up with Brandon. Ned wouldn’t have grown up to be the person he became if he had fathered a bastard. He would have better understood Cercei’s brother love, understood Robert’s bastards, been more yielding in his thinking. He did NOT yield. 🙂

      Loving this Jaime/Brienne stuff too… what a blast… thanks kit_hepburn, and others I will not tag because that’ll be too many tags…

      What do I think right now? Hmmm…

      Pod is still alive. Brienne perhaps considered taking Jaime to LSH, but the conflict with come out. She will tell Jaime about the set-up, and he will be willing bait to try to kill the monster LSH. That will help us solidify he is still on a redemption arc. Brienne will perhaps die, Pod too maybe. LSH can die at Brienne’s hand, there’s a reason Brienne is the one with Oathkeeper, not Jaime, and it has nothing to do with his lack of a sword arm. But Jaime will need to live to kill /die with Cercei…

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    139. Sean C.,

      There is a lot of unaccounted time for the characters in that stretch, so one simply cannot make that deduction. The Dayneites made much to do about that back when they were prominent; in fact, they probably still do if they exist anywhere. Of course, the possibility that Brandon was the one connected to Ashara never was in the picture because it was not until Dragons that we got good information that this was a possibility. (And there is little point in “spoilering” this as it never will be an issue on the show and it is at most a highly trivial issue in the books.)

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    140. kit_hepburn: LSH is 100% a parallel to Aerys for Brienne. Full-stop. No debating it.

      Allow me to comment on this parallel. Yes, both are faced with a difficult decision but it is the only common point between the two. LSH and Aerys are nothing alike, Brienne doesn’t have to kill her own father, or anyone actually. All she has to do is feed a man who deserves to die (even if she doesn’t think so, if you put him into perspective with Podrick, I don’t see how she would be so blind as to not accept it as the truth) some lie and escort him to the woman she swore to protect. Not nearly as dishonorable as befriending the enemy. Yes, LSH is forcing her hand, but she is totally in the right here. Brienne swore vow. Her sword is named Oathkeeper. Catelyn Stark’s death does not release her from that vow.

      On the other hand, Jaime had to choose between the right thing to do (kill his king, the pyromancer in order to save thousands of innocent people) or the honorable thing to do (kill his father, or die in the attempt, as Aerys ordered him to do; or at least not kill Aerys). He was in a no-win situation. People would remember him either as a kinslayer, serving a mad king, or a kingslayer and an oathbreaker.

      Again, do you know where Podrick is? Do you know what has happened to him with certainty? As for the second part, do you know what happened five minutes after Brienne first speaks to Jaime? Do you know that she doesn’t tell him the truth? Do you know that he doesn’t figure out she’s lying? No, none of us know. These are huge gaps of information left to tease us, deliberately.

      I do not know where Podrick is, there is no way to know that, but there is zero evidence that he is not with LSH in a Dance with Dragons. If Brienne escaped with him, why is he not with her ? I believe he would be much safer with a 6-foot-tall armored beefcake of a woman wielding a Valyrian steel sword than on his own.
      If he escaped on his own, why should we care ? Brienne left the BwB while they were still holding him as a hostage, it’s the only thing that really matters. At this point it is his role in the story, whether he escapes after fulfilling it is not the problem.

      However, I do know she is lying. Sansa is still in the Vale, from what we saw in the excerpt from the Winds of Winter. If somehow she met some outlaw posing as the Hound claiming he held Sansa, although he could not possibly have known that she was looking for her, providing no evidence, and specifically asking for Jaime Lannister, I don’t think she would have agreed to that.
      She knows that she is lying 100%. Even if she did not make it up herself, there is no way she actually believed the Hound would want Jaime Lannister in return for Sansa.

      Yes, maybe he knows she is lying, but at this point it wouldn’t make a difference. The only thing that matters is that Jaime is riding with Brienne, who is obviously lying about where she is taking him.

      And YET, the BwB had a spy right in front of Jaime’s nose that he did not know about (the singer, Tom O’Sevenstreams). The text is littered with foreboding that Jaime’s life is in danger. The Brotherhood has actually been able to get very close to him. (And there is also the Blackfish, who is still a massive wild card probably roaming around out there as well). So why do they need Brienne? Do I think it’s possible that they are using Brienne to lure him away from his men at Pennytree? Perhaps. But I think it’s just one option.

      All right, you made a good point with Tom O’Sevenstreams. However, this is only one man. Yes, maybe there are more, but Jaime still has enough men to outnumber them. Tom was more of a spy; his information led to Ryman Frey’s murder, along with his escort. Jaime’s life may be in danger, but as far as we know, the “infiltration tactic” was only used during the siege of Riverrun. Why would they bother to infiltrate Jaime’s camp ? Pennytree is not nearly as important as Riverrun. If it was only to capture Jaime, why haven’t they done it yet ? And why didn’t any of these outlaws try to stop Brienne from riding off with Jaime ?
      What’s more, it doesn’t fit with LSH’s modus operandi. She strikes quickly and precisely by intercepting Freys with a small force. Jaime has way more men than Ryman, Petyr or Merrett Frey ever had. It would surprise me, really, if the BwB was really capable of taking into custody the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard without any help.

      And again, do you know for certain that she’s putting his life in danger by taking him away from his camp? I don’t mean to sound like a broken record, but again: the Brotherhood has in fact already managed to get on the inside of Jaime’s camp. Do we know what they’re planning on a larger scale? Do we know what Brienne has heard through the grapevine? Do we know Jaime is safer inside his camp than out at the moment Brienne comes to get him. No.

      YES. He is way safer. The Brotherhood infiltrated the siege of Riverrun. More men, so easier to blend in. And it was only thanks to Ryman’s stupidity that Tom O’Sevenstreams gathered enough information to get him killed. I think you are overestimating them. Every single time a Frey has travelled alone or with a small escort from the end of A Storm of Swords until at least the end of A Feast for Crows, he has been captured and killed. Even if Brienne is a skilled fighter and has a Valyrian steel sword, she is not unbeatable. She does not make a better protection than all of Jaime’s men. Besides, this is not her territory. The BwB knows the land, they know its people, and they are sheltered by the small folk. If a Six-foot-tall masculine, fully armored woman shows up with a golden-haired one-handed knight anywhere in public, they will be noticed by anyone who has eyes. Look at how it turned out for both of them in a Storm of Swords. If Brienne mysteriously disappears with Jaime, LSH will hunt them down, and I don’t see how they could escape her. If they are caught, it will result in Jaime’s, Brienne’s and Podrick’s death. It is an awful risk to take to try and double-cross an undead psychopath when in that situation.

      First of all, Brienne is not unarmed when she comes for Jaime in ADwD. She has Oathkeeper on her.

      And what deal? If there was a deal made, I certainly did not see/read the terms of it. We know Brienne calls out sword because she desperately assumes this will cause the BwB to cut down both her and Pod (as reasonable assumption), but we see literally nothing else. We hear, literally nothing else. I didn’t say that LSH is for sure dead, I just said it’s one possibility. That’s the problem – there’s a deliberate, gaping, GIANT hole you could drive a truck through right in the middle of the narrative. How much time has even passed? We don’t even know that.

      I meant that she could not possibly have escaped and killed everyone because she was unarmed while she was a prisoner. If she swore an oath, and was then handed Oathkeeper, I don’t consider it as an escape. Brienne escaping is very unlikely.

      There was no explicit deal, but if she is going after Jaime it does not necessarily mean that LSH intends to kill him. Maybe she has bigger plans for him : For example, he could open the gates of Riverrun during Daven Lannister’s wedding in order to make a second Red Wedding happen. There are countless other services Jaime could provide that would not involve him dying. After all, he did swear an oath to Catelyn too. If Brienne had an opportunity to once again prove her loyalty, why couldn’t Jaime ? He is too important a person to just hang. As I said before, LSH has wasted no opportunity so far. If Jaime could potentially help her making something bigger happen, she will spare her life. Maybe that is part of the deal with Brienne, and that is why Brienne is lying to him.

      Okay, so you are saying that only because a lot of time could have been spent between those two chapters, it makes LSH’s sudden death possible ?
      First of all, no one is really safe from GRRM. Then, why would GRRM have introduced her at all if she was to die off-screen after showing up for 3 pages ? And if Brienne is really leading Jaime to her, and shows up only to find her dead, I believe it would be pretty awkward. I don’t see how anything she would have done would have made sense in the long run. She was important in a Feast for Crows, and…that’s it ? She killed a bunch of Freys, then tormented Brienne and overall had no impact on Jaime. That would be her legacy.
      Her death is possible before Brienne and Jaime meet her, yes, just like everything else. But is extremely unlikely.

      Jaime has to do nothing of the kind, and Brienne is hardly going to be the one to make that determination at the behest of a group of outlaws who saw fit to hang her and an innocent child (after she had saved a bunch of children at an orphanage no less – seriously, they are being assholes). And there’s the rub – LSH wants to send an innocent kid accused of something he did not do to die. Jaime want Brienne to find an innocent kid accused of something she did not do to protect her. He even inadvertently confirms this for her when she comes for him at Pennytree with his concern for whether Sansa has been found. If Brienne’s loyalty is not squarely with Jaime at that point in the story, then GRRM has really spent 17 chapters between the two of them developing them for NOTHING (which is not what is happening).

      Podrick is not accused of anything. He is threatened because he is Brienne’s pressure point. That is the only reason. LSH is cruel, but not unfair, she is, as I have stated before, no Aerys. Aerys was paranoid. LSH accuses Brienne of serving the Lannisters, though it is incorrect, it is a fair assumption. Her sword and armor reek of Lannister gold, and she is suspiciously looking for Sansa, the wife of the man who supposedly poisoned Joffrey. Asking her to kill Jaime is not unfair; as far as she knows he was only her prisoner. Refusing to do so makes her even more suspicious, and that is why she is almost killed. Anyone would have dropped the same conclusions in LSH’s stead. Brienne knows that it was her fault if Podrick’s life was threatened. Had she not refused to obey an order- though a harsh one, it still was an order- he would be safe and sound. With all that in mind, I don’t really think that LSH’s cruelty with Podrick really contrasts Jaime’s concern for Sansa. As you said before, maybe Jaime knows Brienne is lying when they meet and is not really ready to, if it comes to that, give up his life for Sansa’s.
      We do not really know why he even goes with her, and that is part of the mystery.

      If Brienne is really betraying Jaime, those chapters will not have been a waste of time. They will make whatever happens in the Winds of Winter in that cave even more tragic. We don’t really have evidence that she is 100% loyal to Jaime. I mean, it is what makes this debate interesting; she has not until now been confronted with such a dilemma. We will eventually find out were her true loyalty lies.

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    141. Wimsey,

      Yes, one can make that deduction. Ned married Catelyn and then marched off to war in the Riverlands, culminating in the Battle of the Trident, the Sack of King’s Landing, and his journey south to the Dornish Marches. It is theoretically possible that Ned was the father of Ashara’s baby, but it is not at all possible that he broke his marriage vows in doing so, because his only opportunity to do so was well before he got married.

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    142. Wimsey: That statement is not entirely true!LF purposely married Sansa off to someone who turned out to be a psychopath: but LF did not know that.Remember, LF is not omniscient, only well-informed: and the Boltons are very good at keeping secrets.

      While this may be true, it’s how it will be interpreted by Sansa that will count,and from what she knows: Lysa’s death, Joffry’s, Dontos and if she remembers the necklace being pushed back into the dingy add to the marriage proposal above Moat Calin; all this to Sansa would look like a plan by him to screw her over, so he may have this one time not have been thinking about himself, but it could back fire on him just the same.

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    143. Ya’ll, I have not read the books yet. I don’t know what the heck you are talking about.
      I could care less if LSH shows up in the show. I am sure they will find suited characters
      within the show capable of killing Freys. I do appreciate that some of you folks covered the books spoilers.

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    144. I like the character, but if she doesn’t appear it isn’t going to be a deal breaker for me with the show. (can’t even imagine what would be at this point, lol) But….

      when talking about LSH, I wonder who is going to have to put her out of her misery in the end and my first thought would be Arya. She is becoming a heartless killer but killing her mother would be anything but heartless. It may be the last thing she does before warging full time into Nymeria. Another thought was Jon having to do it after there was some acknowledgement and closure there. Cat did say that she brought all of this on to her family by not accepting him.

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    145. Sean C.,

      tsk, tsk: an invalid deduction! If he slept with her again afterwards, then it still all fits. And there certainly was opportunity for that.

      Remember, it is possible that the two were genuinely in love (because you don’t really fall in love unless you’re 17), and although Ned loved Catelyn, he was never in love with Catelyn. There is a huge difference here!

      (Other models are quite possible, too.)

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    146. Moosse Bolton,
      I’m going to make some speculations about future events for this post. So I understand that there’s currently no guaranteed basis for this happening in the text, but I think they are plausible options.

      First off, I think it’s erroneous to assume that Pod isn’t accused of anything. They were going to hang him. Period. Yes, Brienne pleads for his life a couple of times, but we don’t know the extent to which the BwB is connecting her pleas to the fact that they can use Pod “against her” for their purpose.

      Even if they do, and this is the deal, Brienne’s first course of action should NOT be to assume that they will honour any deal. She has to at least consider if she kills Jaime, or if she brings him back to the cave (where he will surely die on sight, which is why I don’t think they are going to that cave) there is no guarantee that Pod will be alive when she gets back there, or that they will honour the “deal.” Remember that they broke bread with these people and then they proceeded to violate “guest right,” which I understand doesn’t mean much to them anymore considering what happened, but it clearly means something to Brienne for her to mention it. So if I was Brienne, what would I do (if I was in fact trying to avoid killing/trapping Jaime)? My first instinct would be to get Pod out of there at all costs. If that didn’t work, I would try to find someone on the inside to ensure his safety or to get him out of there. I think it’s possible that Thoros or Gendry might be important in this regard, Thoros especially considering the conversation she had with him. She might try to appeal to his humanity, to his guilt over what the BwB has become. That’s just one in a huge list of options. I’m just saying that Brienne’s first choice should not be to find Jaime and deliver him to these people even if she wants Pod to live. She has no reason in the world currently to trust them, none.

      The second thing I’m going to speculate is something that I think we have a lot of evidence for given what the show is choosing to include next season: I think something terrible is going to happen at Riverrun. I’m not sure exactly what, and most seem to assume it involves the Lannister/Frey wedding (which is a good guess). You say that I am overestimating the BwB, but I think it’s possible that it’s not just the BwB – it might be the BwB + Blackfish and whoever else he’s managed to scrounge up + Nymeria’s wolves (as a tangential addition). I’m pretty sure Jaime’s party was planning on heading back to Riverrun after Pennytree, and back to King’s Landing after that. Let’s just theorize for a moment, that if Brienne gets wind of some kind of plan that she doesn’t know the specifics of (like the how or when), she just knows that the BwB is planning something terrible at Riverrun, and that Jaime is heading back to Riverrun… well you see what I’m saying. There’s a reason why leading Jaime away from his party might actually be safer than letting him make that return trip. PS. I don’t buy the idea that the BwB need Jaime to infiltrate the wedding, but some others do.

      And the reason why I think the aforementioned event at Riverrun might be a seriously strong possibility is the way the show is focusing on Riverrun at the end of Season 6. It looked like the siege from Book 4 from early filming leaks. But Brienne wasn’t at that siege. Now we get word that they are STILL filming (it’s into Week 3, and that a lot of materials are being brought in… red tents are still set up… something big is going down at Riverrun on the show). And Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Gwendoline Christie still seem to be going back and forth for filming during this time period. Might the show be consolidating and adapting what is in the books in WoW? I think it’s extremely likely, and I also think that whatever happens at Riverrun is an adequate enough substitute for what is really happening with LSH that she’s not included.

      But we’ll be able to talk more about this when the book is released and the show airs. I’m just trying to say that I have a very strong feeling that what we’re going to see in that book is NOT the scenario that everyone assumes about Brienne, Jaime and his being led to Lady Stoneheart. I don’t know to what extent I’m correct, but I’d wager I am at least partially, enough that I’d be willing to put money on it. 🙂

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    147. Wimsey,

      Ned never thinks about Ashara at all. There’s nothing in his POV to suggest he had that sort of relationship with her, let alone a dead baby.

      Your scenario would involve Ned sleeping with Ashara after the Tower of Joy, when he brought back news that he had killed her brother.

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    148. I’ve been away for a couple days and just caught up with this thread. kit_hepburn is DEAD ON RIGHT about the Aerys parallel and about where we actually leave off with Jaime and Brienne.

      LSH is someone Brienne made a vow to, who is now pretty batshit, who is killing innocents and asking her to kill someone important to her. And LSH needs put down just the way Aerys did. This parallel is so ridiculously obvious I didn’t think there was anyone out there who didn’t see it.

      That being said, LSH IS an easy cut from the show. Brienne’s breaking point can be shown in another way. LSH’s wanderings around the Riverlands are convoluted and unnecessary in show terms. LSH is just a plot device for Jaime and Brienne, and there are plenty of other plot devices that work equally well.

      Also, at the end of the Jaime chapter in Dance, we know…pretty much nothing. We know that a battered and bruised Brienne (with Oathkeeper) showed up at the camp. We know she told him a (ridiculous and obvious) lie. We know he left with her.

      And the rest of the assumptions, that she’s actually taking him to LSH, that Pod is alive, that Brienne would willingly lead Jaime to his dead, is assumption. There is a ton of fanfiction about there about what happens after Jaime and Brienne leave Pennytree. But that’s all it is, fanfiction.

      Preach, kit_hepburn, preach.

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    149. kit_hepburn,

      Regarding Pod, you are right, if Brienne somehow knows about the second Red Wedding and that Pod is dead/will not survive, she may consider riding off with Jaime. But still, the problem is that as you stated, Brienne will want some assurances. She would have to have given up on any hope of getting Podrick out of this to ride off with Jaime. It’s possible, but there are a lot of “ifs” there. It is true that Podrick was Tyrion’s squire, but LSH doesn’t know that-yet. Therefore she has, as of now, no reason to kill him other than to force Brienne’s hand. Even if for some reason the outlaws are addicted to seeing little boys choke on a noose, LSH is not dumb. She needs Brienne. Even if she might not want to, she may serve LSH a little while longer after all of the Jaime stuff is over, because of the oath she took. There is still hope. She will not give up a skilled fighter such as Brienne to satisfy her killing urges. I mean, she actually heard what she had to say ! Her sword has a pommel shaped in a golden lion’s head, LSH could have executed her along with her companions at any time, yet she waited till she recovered. That is a sign that she at least needs her at some point.

      What you say about what they might do with Riverrun in season 6 is interesting. But if the BwB really follow this possible Winds of Winter plot in Season 6, why would they do that if LSH is cut ? They have absolutely no reason to do that.
      However, if the Blackfish does join the BwB, it could explain why LSH wouldn’t need Jaime to infiltrate the wedding. After all, he did escape without anyone seeing him, so why not enter the castle unseen as well ? My only problem with that in the books is that the Blackfish isn’t undead Cat. He is an honorable, noble man. He would never make that happen, not even for vengeance. As soon as he knows what his niece has been doing, he will leave her band of glorified murderers, or at least try to make her change her mind. If a second Red Wedding ever happens in Winds, the Blackfish will have no part in it.
      If they decide to replace LSH with the Blackfish despite all of that, it would make absolutely zero sense. Why would the BwB even follow him ? According to what you said, in episode 7 ( the first episode we know will feature the siege) our boy Brynden would be holding Riverrun, in 8 he will probably swim down some river, or whatever. So far it is what will happen in all likelihood. But then in 9 he somehow would meet with the BwB, become their leader, elaborate a clever plan to get into Riverrun, capture Brienne, who overhears their conversation, and now knows that Jaime is in danger. Finally in episode 10 the outlaws ride, Brienne escapes, outraces them, convinces Jaime to come with her, and flees with him to some unknown place and the wedding happens, everyone dies. Wow. The ending of season 5 may have been rushed, but that takes it to a whole new level.
      If anything, the Red Wedding 2.0 would be evidence that LSH IS included. You can’t replace what LSH does in the books by what she will do in the books in the future, and still not include her character.

      Besides, if Brienne had learnt about what was going to happen in Riverrun, wouldn’t she try to warn Jaime explicitly ? Instead, she lies to him and takes him god knows where. Wouldn’t she try to save the countless other lives in Riverrun ?

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    150. Moosse Bolton,

      There is no guarantee that

      Pod survived his hanging. He may have been dead before Brienne left the camp.

      We have no idea what is going through Brienne’s mind because GRRM isn’t ready for us to know.

      My money has Jaime and Brienne ending up in the Vale in the books. I don’t know exactly how. But if I’m betting, that’s where my money goes.

      And as to the Blackfish, we really don’t know much about him. He seems like a decent guy, for all we know. But he certainly shirked his family duty by avoiding marriage like it was greyscale. And now his family is either dead or imprisoned. There’s a good chance he’s gone full jackass. I’m not saying he has. I’m saying you can’t assume he hasn’t because we know so little of him.

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    151. This is all rather exciting sounding

      Which has me worried, whenever I get really hyped for something my expectations end up being too high!

      Big challenge this season lies in making the storytelling compelling and with impact, as we’ve seen with Crasters etc whenever they’ve diverged from GRRM’s book writing in a substantial way the show has started to turn a bit TV cliche, so now I’m concerned that with nothing to anchor themselves too all these great plot points might not have the execution they deserve

      Other side of that coin though is that they may have draft chapters of GRRM’s to reference so all will be good

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    152. Ghost’s Lunch: as we’ve seen with Crasters etc whenever they’ve diverged from GRRM’s book writing in a substantial way the show has started to turn a bit TV cliche

      Or Hardhome. That was pretty much completely made up, and it was utter shit.

      Oh wait.

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    153. COVER

      YOUR

      SPOILERS.

      If you don’t know how to cover them, you need to ask for help before you post any spoilers in comments.

      But it isn’t new commenters making the mistake. You all know better. If you haven’t seen that scene onscreen, you need to cover it. Show consideration for other fans, please.

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    154. Luka Nieto: Or Hardhome. That was pretty much completely made up…

      I’ve never thought that Hardhome was that much of a divergence from book canon. Of course, Jon, Wun Wun, and Edd were added…but Tormund was headed there at the end of ADwD as part of a ranging effort that Jon was planning to accompany, per Cotter’s request, until the PL and FTW.

      Crazy thought…do you think that Hardhome is still in play in TWoW? Was the Hardhome sequence perhaps an adapted TWoW spoiler? Do you think Jon 2.0 could head there to get his NK staredown moment? I would assume at some point in early TWOW, Jon and the NK are going to have a meet and greet.

      I wonder about Davos as well…he may be in the general vicinity in early TWoW…perhaps another odd convergence is in order…?

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    155. Moosse Bolton,

      Regarding Pod, you are right, if Brienne somehow knows about the second Red Wedding and that Pod is dead/will not survive, she may consider riding off with Jaime. But still, the problem is that as you stated, Brienne will want some assurances. She would have to have given up on any hope of getting Podrick out of this to ride off with Jaime.

      Or, she actually obtained those assurances before leaving. And it might not initially have anything to do with Jaime at all. Regardless of what this BwB is telling her, Brienne’s first instinct should be to get Pod the hell AWAY from there, if he’s even still alive. We’re given the information about Thoros being unhappy with the Brotherhood, why? Is it possible that watching them hang an innocent child (I don’t care what purpose it was for – pressure point on Brienne or whatever – I’m sure there are going to be people not OK with it) causes Thoros to at least covertly switch sides? Yeah, I think it’s very possible. What about Gendry? He helped Brienne defend the inn of orphans. Maybe a conversation with him is in order – “Gendry, I know you defended the innocent at that inn. Pod is an orphan himself. I know you know holding him here isn’t right. If something happens to me, if I don’t return, you need to make sure nothing happens to him, you need to get him somewhere safe…” Do I know for sure that this is what happens in the interim? No. Do I think it’s actually more likely than some of the alternatives? YES.
      It is true that Podrick was Tyrion’s squire, but LSH doesn’t know that-yet. Therefore she has, as of now, no reason to kill him other than to force Brienne’s hand. Even if for some reason the outlaws are addicted to seeing little boys choke on a noose, LSH is not dumb. She needs Brienne. Even if she might not want to, she may serve LSH a little while longer after all of the Jaime stuff is over, because of the oath she took. There is still hope. She will not give up a skilled fighter such as Brienne to satisfy her killing urges. I mean, she actually heard what she had to say ! Her sword has a pommel shaped in a golden lion’s head, LSH could have executed her along with her companions at any time, yet she waited till she recovered. That is a sign that she at least needs her at some point.

      We seem to have completely different standards regarding what LSH is all about, and to what extent we’re supposed to sympathize with her actions. I wouldn’t put it past her to kill Pod for no reason (she almost did). She mistakenly thinks Brienne has defected to the Lannister side when she hasn’t – Brienne and Jaime are trying to fulfill their OATH to Catelyn about keeping her daughters safe. Brienne has been doing the right, honourable thing. Lady Stoneheart doesn’t believe her. I don’t care about the evidence, she WRONG. I’m not even sure LSH has some longterm plan in mind regarding Brienne. Sure, she wants Brienne to kill Jaime. But if she refuses to (which she does), then fine, she can hang as a betrayer. And I’m going to invoke something that George himself says about LSH: “Lady Stoneheart is NOT Catelyn… one of the things I wanted to show with her character is that death changes you…” What’s more, Brienne knows this isn’t Catelyn – “The thing that was Catelyn Stark…” she observes in her final scene. And yet you say there is still hope that Brienne might end up serving LSH?! A) That’s not hopeful and B) If this was Brienne from Book 2, who has a very idealistic and rigid idea of what honour is and what oaths are, then I’d say yeah, she’s going to end up serving LSH because of a vow she swore. But this is Brienne post-Jaime saving her from rape and the bear-pit. This is Brienne after the bathrub confession, after witnessing the ravages of war on the countryside and on the poor, this is Brienne after Septon Meribald and the Elder Brother. This Brienne will NOT serve LSH, nor should we hope for her to. That would be completely counter to all of her character development.
      If they decide to replace LSH with the Blackfish despite all of that, it would make absolutely zero sense. Why would the BwB even follow him ? According to what you said, in episode 7 ( the first episode we know will feature the siege) our boy Brynden would be holding Riverrun, in 8 he will probably swim down some river, or whatever. So far it is what will happen in all likelihood. But then in 9 he somehow would meet with the BwB, become their leader, elaborate a clever plan to get into Riverrun, capture Brienne, who overhears their conversation, and now knows that Jaime is in danger. Finally in episode 10 the outlaws ride, Brienne escapes, outraces them, convinces Jaime to come with her, and flees with him to some unknown place and the wedding happens, everyone dies. Wow. The ending of season 5 may have been rushed, but that takes it to a whole new level.

      The trouble is, you’re thinking the events in the book are going to be adapted directly the way they are, instead of blending multiple events and locations into one major location and event. Blackfish has been completely MIA since Season 3. You know who else has been completely MIA since Season 3? The Brotherhood. I think it’s extremely possible that in the show, Blackfish will already be aligned with them.

      You mention him having to swim down the river and escape as a result of the siege. That’s in the books. The show already had him escape once, from the Red Wedding. It’s doubtful they need him to do it again if he’s resurfacing at this point in the story, and not earlier.

      So I’ve suggested that he’s already with them (for whatever reason – the show will touch on motivations, of which there are a lot I can speculate about, but it’s not the point of this post). As such, there’s no “Episode 9 he becomes their leader and devises a plan to get back into Riverrun.” That’s probably not a thing that happens because it doesn’t need to – he’s already there. Furthermore, I never said what will happen in the show is a wedding. It probably isn’t. But some event, involving the Blackfish and whoever he’s allied with, at Riverrun (sneak attack on the Lannister tents maybe?) where Brienne already IS, where Jaime already IS… this is what I think it going to play out. This is substituting and combining the following things from the books: The siege at Riverrun, what happens to Blackfish, what happens to the outlaws/BwB, a likely violent event at RR that will occur in Winds, how Jaime and Brienne get back together, how Brienne is likely going to choose to rescue Jaime from danger or protect him in some way ( total speculation on my part, but there is show textual evidence for it – “Nothing’s more hateful than failing to protect the one you love…” ~Brienne, Season 5).

      This is why/how they don’t need Lady Stoneheart. They can kill about 15 birds with one stone (heh), but without dealing with the messiness of resurrecting a dead character when they already have to resurrect another major one.
      Besides, if Brienne had learnt about what was going to happen in Riverrun, wouldn’t she try to warn Jaime explicitly ? Instead, she lies to him and takes him god knows where. Wouldn’t she try to save the countless other lives in Riverrun ?

      Fine. But again, the thing that I have to repeatedly emphasize because it’s very, very important, is that

      we don’t know what Brienne says to Jaime once she gets him alone. We don’t know if the first thing he says to her is, “You’re lying to me.” Maybe she does warn him explicitly. Maybe she doesn’t know how many lives are at stake at Riverrun, she only knows Jaime will be in danger if he goes back there. Maybe she knows she can’t do anything about it since she’s in pretty damn bad shape, but she can try to save the one she wants to save (and I mean, after all, she has no loyalty to the Lannisters and the Freys, obviously – it’s Jaime she’s loyal to). Or maybe she IS coming to get him because they Brotherhood expects her to. Or maybe she knows the Brotherhood themselves have already infiltrated his camp, but because she has some assurances that Pod will be safe where she left him, she takes the chance and tries to bring Jaime somewhere else.

      Seriously, I could literally go on all.freaking.day with the questions and possibilities, and it’s because there is too much we don’t know, and it’s written that way on purpose.

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    156. Hodor’s Bastard: Crazy thought…do you think that Hardhome is still in play in TWoW? Was the Hardhome sequence perhaps an adapted TWoW spoiler? Do you think Jon 2.0 could head there to get his NK staredown moment? I would assume at some point in early TWOW, Jon and the NK are going to have a meet and greet.

      Hell of a good question. I had looked at this as part of Winter dragged into Dragons sort of like “Mercy” seems to have been. I have assumed that once Jon is saved (be it healed or revived), then he might have to get the hell out of Dodge. We don’t know what the outcome of the Loyalist vs. Nationalist vs. Queens Men vs. Wildlings is going to be, and we don’t know when a certain pale red postcard is going to get it’s follow up. But Jon might well be on the lam from the NW: and going to Hardhome with the Wildlings might initially be sensible. (Of course, if so, then Mel might be there, too.)

      I just hope I live long enough to find out! (Not that I’m ill: but I am mortal….)

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    157. Sean C.,

      That is a negative evidence argument: GRRM purposefully puts very general thoughts on the page for Ned that prevent us from gleaning any specifics of his life. We read later of many specific things in which Ned was involved that fit other general thoughts that Ned has. Look at it this way: if GRRM had written Ned’s thoughts in such a way that this was not a negative evidence argument, then we would know who Jon’s mother is as well as many other things that we either learn later in the books/TV show or still have not yet learned. (Or we can conclude that Jon’s mother had no name because Ned never thinks it in conjunction with Jon.)

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    158. HotPinkLipstick,

      The wiki says that GRRM confirmed that Pod survived the hanging. He could be killed later, but whatever.
      Had the Blackfish gone full jackass, he would have ordered his men to fill Jaime with arrows when they met. He still plays by the rules. The Blackfish joining LSH and approving her methods would be extremely out of character. Yes, he ignored his family duties by refusing to marry, but we don’t know why. Maybe it is because he got used to a military life, and could never be anything else than a self-sustaining bachelor. Maybe he is gay. Maybe he loved Hoster’s wife. There are plenty of possibilities that could very well help understanding why he refused to marry. Besides, Hoster was already wed, he later had several children, two of them married two of the most powerful lords in the seven kingdoms. Brynden’s wedding was not necessary to strengthen the Tullys’ position.
      Catelyn is the way she is because she actually was at the Red Wedding. She saw all of it, and was killed LAST. The Blackfish is a veteran, he has seen plenty of ugly things in his life, he will not go crazy because people died. Sad, grieving, yes. But not crazy.

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    159. kit_hepburn,

      No way Thoros or Gendry are going to sneak off with Podrick because Brienne asked them to, if Brienne and Jaime mysteriously disappear together. If Brienne intends to double-cross LSH, she isn’t going to take that risk while Podrick is alive. “Assurances” aren’t enough. Thoros disapproves killing the innocent, true, but where was he when Petyr Frey, a boy who got drunk at the Red Wedding was hanged even though they ransomed him ? Yes, the Freys are the enemies of the BwB, but so are the Lannisters, and until she proves to be innocent, Brienne serves the Lannisters as well, and therefore Podrick does too. Gendry will soon be back at the inn at the crossroads, and as I said LSH doesn’t enjoy to watch people dying. She may be emotionless, but those are very different things. As of now, she has not started killing random people for absolutely no reason. Yes, she isn’t Catelyn, but that doesn’t mean that she isn’t a human being anymore. People always tend to assume she is a mindless zombie because she can not speak, and therefore can not justify her actions. What’s more, you can easily understand why she judges Brienne guilty. The last thing Catelyn Stark heard was “Jaime Lannister sends his regards”. I am sure she remembers that. But wait… Brienne was supposed to escort Jaime to King’s Landing. Yet he somehow managed to (in LSH’s mind) plot the Red Wedding with Roose Bolton on their way to the capital. Brienne later comes to her with a knight of the Reach, a Lannister-made sword and a royal warrant to search for Sansa signed by…king Tommen. I mean, she is the most obviously guilty person they could possibly find. Anyone would have let her die of her wounds. Yet LSH still allowed her to recover and gave her a trial. And yes, course she is ordered to kill Jaime. It is the only way to know if her tale was true.

      Furthermore, I did not say that I hoped Brienne would serve LSH, I said that Brienne proves to be true, then LSH could hope that Brienne would help her. Of course it isn’t going to happen. But when the BwB find her at the inn, she remembers Brienne’s service and later allows her to explain herself.

      Regarding the Blackfish and his “plan” in the show, if it isn’t about the wedding, but rather a sneak attack, are you saying that the BwB will somehow defeat thousands of Freys and Lannisters ? Because that seems very unlikely to happen. Or are you saying that they will simply sneak into the camp, slit some throats and leave ? I’m not sure why the Blackfish would do that. And you are saying that he would go there himself ? Nah…This isn’t this kind of story. The whole thing about LSH is that she makes Brienne question her loyalty. Brynden Tully wants to murder Jaime…so what ? There is no conflict here. It seems like that would be over-simplifying the plot, and the last time they did that…well…It didn’t turn out well. *cough cough* Sand Snakes *cough cough*
      I can (sadly) see that happening, but I certainly don’t want it to happen.

      By the way, I don’t buy that somehow, in the books, the BwB would be discussing plans to murder anyone right in front of Brienne. It’s possible that someone would warn her about it, but I really don’t see who or why. Jaime, or the Freys aren’t exactly the most popular guys. I’m sure the smallfolk in the Riverlands would rather see their heads on spikes, or dangling from trees.

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    160. Moosse Bolton,

      I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, so I thank you for that. However, it’s becoming increasingly clear to me that with every rebuttal you make, I could probably bring up five more possible scenarios for what is going on, and with it five more justifications for said scenarios, etc. because of precisely what I’ve been mentioning all along – what we don’t know if far, far more than what we do know in the whole

      Brienne/Jaime/Lady Stoneheart situation.

      Which, in an exponential sense, is really going to start getting away from me in terms of time and energy expended, lol.

      But I just wanted to reiterate, that the reason I started commenting in the first place was because of something very specific that you said, which was (paraphrased) that

      “Brienne has made the decision (offscreen) that Jaime deserves to die, and that she’s ready to take her vow(s) to LSH seriously, which is why she’s bringing him to LSH.”

      I still strongly believe that this is only supposition based on purposely incomplete information, which I think I’ve communicated well enough in my posts.

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    161. Moosse Bolton,

      LSH resonates throughout the whole book

      Not in the book I read. Barely anything to infer…you appear to me to be making leaps and shadows that aren’t really there.

      If you want to include the Riverlands in season 6, you have to include LSH.

      No, one doesn’t. Not necessary in the least. I have to agree with a few others that there is a lot of emphasis being put on this one character that had little to no development in the book, making everything that happens in Season 6 at the Riverlands all about her? Makes no sense whatsoever. Sorry. I have read all your posts here and I love your passion for the character, but it doesn’t compute for me personally.

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    162. LordGriffith,

      Yeah, and you make this sound terrible? I think once people realize that books 4 and 5 are all about set-up for TWOW instead of comparing it to the first 3 books that involved the War of the 5 Kings the better off everyone will be. Books 4 and 5 are the best to read because so much behind the scenes stuff going on and it is fun trying to catch and connect the dots. Gonna be a fantastic season!

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    163. HelloThere,

      Moosse Bolton,

      Get off the Stoneheart Train – that ship has sailed. In regards to how everything looks on TV and based on the emotional connection fans can take away from Jon resurrecting if Stoneheart comes now all it does it take away from Jon resurrecting. not good story telling for TV. If anything Jon has to be resurrected first and Stoneheart can’t be in the season til much later. But I still think it throws a wrench into what GoT has going for them which is realism in a fantasy drama. Dany not being burned and Jon resurrecting are magical things that don’t happen much in the show. Now all of a sudden in season 6 we have multiple good characters coming back to life. It just doesn’t sit well, makes it look like there are no rules to follow. Of course being such a GoT nerd I would love it but if I was just a simple TV watcher and nothing more, I would scoff at the idea.

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    164. Arkash,

      They will probably give us the first trailer at the beginning of the new mini series in January and MOST DEF. at the beginning of the first episode of Vinyl. That will get people to sit and watch Vinyl hopefully.

        Quote  Reply

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