UPDATED! New footage: The Lannisters mobilize in massive GoT scene!

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

This past weekend we got out first look at the Game of Thrones shoot in Malpartida —First at Las Breñas and then at Los Barruecos. However, that was only the beginning: There are three grueling weeks of work ahead for this key season seven sequence.

Today, thanks to an entrepreneurial Game of Thrones fan currently in Cáceres, we get our first truly great look at the preamble for this action setpiece —As you can see above, with decent resolution photos, no less! We also find out Jaime has a new sword (Or should I say an old sword?) Beware: There are spoilerific pictures below the cut!

About a week ago, Twitter user Rick Zornow took great pictures of the Game of Thrones production in Cáceres, showing the cast and crew rehearsing at El Barrueco de Arriba. Just as diligently, today Zornow shared a great number of pictures of a new scene:

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

Photo: @RickZornow / Twitter

You can see Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Jerome Flynn working alongside many extras. There is also a green screen, perfectly placed to composite these hundreds of real people with thousands more soldiers generated via the dark arts of computer widardry. Remember to visit Rick Zornow’s Twitter gallery if you want to see each and every one of the pictures he took. The selection above only shows some of the interesting bits.

UPDATE: HahPhi has more pictures of the shoot, and these ones are close-up. In the last picture, you may notice Randyll Tarly mounted on a horse, next to someone who is probably Dickon Tarly, also ahorse, as well as Tarly soldiers marching in line with the Lannister army, confirming the Tarlys’ rumored betrayal of the Tyrells:

Photo: @Hah_phi / Twitter

Photo: @Hah_phi / Twitter

Photo: @Hah_phi / Twitter

Photo: @Hah_phi / Twitter

Photo: @Hah_phi / Twitter

Photo: @Hah_phi / Twitter

Photo: @Hah_phi / Twitter

Photo: @Hah_phi / Twitter

In related news, a new picture has surfaced from the brief shoot at Trujillo Castle, where the aftermath of the taking of Highgarden was filmed. Adrián Alonso, a keen-eyed fan of the show, has recognized the sword in Jaime’s scabbard (Thanks yeahclarke for the tip!) It’s none other than King Joffrey’s Valyrian steel sword, Widow’s Wail.

At the time of the bastard’s death, many in the community wondered whether the sword had been buried with Joffrey or perhaps Tommen had inherited it. If this is indeed Widow’s Wail, that question has now been answered. With Tommen defenestrated and Oathkeeper gifted to Brienne (twice), it appears that Jaime will now wield this other half of Ned’s ancestral sword, Ice. One must wonder if the two halves will clash sometime, as they are in the hands of Brienne and Jaime, who are in opposite sides of the war.

Meanwhile, the ambush sequence is taking shape. First we saw the Lannister army marching with all their booty from the sack of Highgarden and then the Dothraki horde ambushing them. Today’s scene must take place in-between, with the Lannister caravan already in the location of the battle but before Daenerys strikes against them by surprise.

In the following days, if footage proves to be as forthcoming as it has been up to now, getting to parse the many scenes that make up this sequence will be quite illuminating. We’ve known for a long time it would take a bit more than three weeks to shoot —And now, courtesy of Watchers on the Wall sources, we can tell you more: The battle alone may comprise somewhere between a quarter and a third of the fourth episode.

293 responses

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    1. Hold the door!

      Those are quite interesting pictures of the ambush and widows wail – how long do we still have to wait for the new season!

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    2. The two halves won’t clash, to me it’s obvious that the two halves of Ned’s sword will be used by two knights/lovers (Jaime and Brienne) to protect Ned’s children. Brienne is already protecting Sansa, and Jaime will go to north with Brienne and protect Bran, possibly, because Arya doesn’t need to be protected and he has to pay for what he did to Bran. They are on the opposite sides for now, but Jaime will switch sides. Jaime even had the Weirwood dream in the books about him and Brienne fighting together against monsters in winter, with two flaming swords.

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    3. OMG, Jaime has Widow’s Wail! It’s like every Jaime & Brienne fanfic come true! I don’t think the wielders of Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail are going to clash so much as form a crucial team in the fight against the White Walkers.

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    4. innocence: The two halves won’t clash, to me it’s obvious that the two halves of Ned’s sword will be used by two knights/lovers (Jaime and Brienne) to protect Ned’s children.

      MoF: OMG, Jaime has Widow’s Wail! It’s like every Jaime & Brienne fanfic come true! I don’t think the wielders of Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail are going to clash so much as form a crucial team in the fight against the White Walkers.

      Honestly? I agree. But I couldn’t help a bit of sensationalistic theorizing 😛

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    5. innocence,

      Yeah this is true.I’m gonna cry loads in season 8 lol.I hope they admit they love each other.I think Brienne knows it but I don’t know if Jaime has realized that’s what he feels yet.

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    6. Thank you, Luka, for a wonderful report, as well as Rick Zornow for the photos and Adrián Alonso for solving the riddle of the Widow’s Wail. A bit weird though: when last we saw it the Widow’s Wail was lying in the lap of Joffrey’s dead body as a burial sword should lie, but well: what do we know about westerosi burial rites? They may strip the dead of all the burial goods before they put them into coffins, if that’s necessary.

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    7. Widow’s Wail! OMG NOW I’m excited for season 7. Jaime and Brienne will not fight each other, they will fight together against the Others. It is known.

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    8. He should rename it. When they all stand side by side against the WW they’ll be like “This is my sword Oathkeeper!” and “This is my sword Heartsbane!” and “This is my sword Longclaw!” and Jaime yells “This is my sword Honeybunch!” Everyone just looks at him and shakes their heads.

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    9. Oooo, I love these pictures. It’s good to see Jaime and Bronn instead of just a bunch of extras. I see a green banner, I wonder if that’s House Tarly’s flag? There’s a man on horseback that could be Randyll or Dickon but no amount of zooming can make it any clearer.

      I’m glad Widow’s Wail did not get buried with either of Cersei’s brats. It still irks me that the Stark ancestral sword is in the hands of a Lannister, but I suppose Jaime is the least of offensive. And I’m okay with Jaime possessing it because [LEAKS]

      when he heads North to join the fight against the WW, that’ll be one more Valyrian steel sword that will be desperately needed. Although, I don’t know how effective a one-handed Jaime can be; maybe he’ll hand it over to someone who can wield it better. Perhaps Arya? It is designed for a smaller person, right?

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    10. Inga,

      Burying a Valyrian steel sword never made any sense to me. To start with, Tywin obviously intended Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail to be the new Lannister family swords. Also, come on. They’re really expensive and useful swords. You don’t throw one away just because of a ritual.

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    11. innocence,

      Or Jon. I have always thought Jaime would end up fighting with/ having Jon’s back, especially given all the guilt he feels in having failed to protect Rhaegar’s children.

      I agree that Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail will not clash, but rather they will fight together. Jaime’s story will lead him to Brienne, not against her.

      The ambush will take up one third to a quarter of the episode – so around 15 to 20 minutes? It was what I was expecting.

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    12. ghost of winterfell: The ambush will take one third to a quarter of the episode – so around 15 to 20 minutes? It was what I was expecting.

      Like Hardhome, more or less, I’d say. Perhaps a bit longer. Certainly more elaborate.

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    13. So if you force two swords that used to be one to fight each other will there be some kind of Priori Incantatem thing?

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    14. I can think of a few things of Jaime and Brienne’s that may be clashing together and it isn’t their swords, just saying!

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    15. Hopefully 20min for the sequence!

      I’ve always thought those who carry a valyrian steel would be in the show until the very end, fighting against the WW so it’s good to see Widow’s wail in Jaime’s hand.

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    16. Jon got Longclaw, Brienne Oathkeeper, Jaime Widow’s Wail, who is gonna wield Heartsbane? Any ideas?

      ghost of winterfell,

      Ice since being reforged into Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail, is probably more fitting protecting Starks, the North might not be individuals.

      Jaime regrets that in the books, not show. I heard theory hos he’s gonna make Jon a King, Kingmaker like the other member of the Kingsguard Ser Criston Cole. But still, not like Jaime can fight that much. He’s far from being as good as he was, his skills he used to have. How is he gonna fight wights or white walkers who are really ferocious in combat.

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    17. So Widow’s Wail in Jaime’s hands, Oathkeepier in Brienne’s, Longclaw in Jon’s and Heartsbane in Sam’s (maybe he will give it to Jon or Podrick because I don’t see him fight with it). 4 VS swords to clash with WWs. I hope Dawn is brought into the picture.

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    18. Wow, awesome news. I am hoping fan theories are right and that Jaime will get on the right side of things. I’d love to see him fighting WITH the Starks instead of against them.

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    19. The Hound may be given Heartbane. And I forgot Jaime sucks at swordmanship now given his hand, but maybe he has gotten significantly better.

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    20. sebaciel,

      Dawn is not a Valyrian steel sword and Jon got Longclaw. Heartsbane must be for someone like Hound or Jorah.

      Leaks spoilers.

      In the leaks is says Jon tried to give Jorah Longclaw but he refused. Jon will wield Longclaw. not Dawn as many thought.

        Quote  Reply

    21. Geralt of Rivia: Heartsbane must be for someone like Hound or Jorah.

      I agree. They are the two likeliest candidates for Heartsbane, in my view.

      DarthJason,

      No, Needle is castle-forged steel, which is high quality, but not Valyrian steel. That’s much rarer. Jon couldn’t just make Arya a Valyrian steel sword.

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    22. MoF: I don’t think the wielders of Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail are going to clash so much as form a crucial team in the fight against the White Walkers.

      Agreed. The fact that Valyrian swords are effective against WWs, has been laid out for a long time. Now that the endgame of the show is approaching, it’s fair to say that people being set up to find/wield Valyrian swords, will fight WWs. So, yes, Jaime will join the fight for saving Westeros/life itself. We have to wait and see whether Sam keeps his V. sword or gives it to Jorah – that could be the hidden goal of Jorah meeting him.

      Elizabeth: I’d love to see him fighting WITH the Starks instead of against them.

      So far, only Jon and Bran are fighting against the WWs. Will the other two Starks join in? Sansa and Arya?

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    23. BunBunStark,

      According to leaks,

      Arya will start using Littlefinger’s Valyrian dagger and will be very efficient with it, so that’s meant to be Arya’s weapon I think.

      Actually it was a very popular theory that Jaime would use Widow’s Wail, not only because “the other half of Brienne’s sword” connection, or Jaime’s dream, but also Widow’s Wail is being described as a small and very light sword, unlike big and heavy Oathkeeper. It’s a “one-handed” sword, it is used by one hand, two-handed swords (big and heavy ones) require both hands to use. But this a sword which is fit for a strong but one-handed man, one can move fast with it. So I think it was meant for Jaime, especially if he develops his left hand a bit more.

      But I agree that he should rename it…

      I had thought that it would fit him if he kills Cersei with it but apparently Cersei doesn’t die this season, so…

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    24. DarthJason,

      Littlefinger’s dagger is made from a Valyrian steel. Needle is a just a regular sword. Forged by Mikken.

      Luka Nieto,

      Bloodraven had one valyrian steel sword called Dark Sister in the books but Bloodraven and 3ER are different characters. It would be so fitting for Arya or Dany. It’s accustomed for a woman. Visenya fought with it.

      I wonder, how many of them are left in show universe.

      I know about books universe Dark Sister (in possession of Bloodraven), Lady Forlorn (House Corbray), Nightfall ( House Harlaw), Red Rain ( House Reyne), Lamentation (House Royce), Brightroar (Hous Lannister), Orphan-Maker, Truth (don’t remember House which it belongs to) and Vigilance ( House Hightower)

      I know in the books exists Valyrian steel arakh who is wield by sellsword, also Valyrian steel axe of House Celtigar.

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    25. Greywind,

      I think Jaime will rename it ” Golden Sister” for obvious reasons…

      Seriously, dude, Cersei is not the only ” bad pussy” there is. Show Jaime is a bit slow.

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    26. Geralt of Rivia,
      In the books Jamie is training with his left hand. They show him training with Bronn a few seasons ago. The assumption is he is still practicing and training to get better. Still struggles a bit but he is getting more confidence on how to use his golden hand as a weapon.

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    27. I’d like Jaime not to rename Widow’s Wail.

      Given the leaks:

      it fits that Jaime would carry a sword named that, as pregnant Cersei is supposed to wake in a bed of blood, ‘wailing’. Not that I hope Jaime dies, however, Cersei is the ‘widow’ of Robert Baratheon. Symmetry and all.

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    28. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      I was really hoping Jamie would be the one to wield Widows Wail, so pumped for everything 🙂
      the ambush set piece looks amazing.
      Best news I’ve heard all day ^^

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    29. Jack Bauer 24: How could an ambush be longer and more elaborate?

      Because Hardhome was essentially an ambush as well. And more elaborate likely means more extras, horses, and dragons will be present.

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    30. Jack Bauer 24,

      What is the question, exactly? This ambush sequence has more extras (especially fighting extras) than Hardhome. There’s also the almost 100 horses. And many more main characters are involved in both sides. By definition it’s a more complex scene, both in terms of production and plot.

      I think some people don’t realize that “ambush” does not truly reflect on the size of the conflict. It’s just a tactic. This is a battle in which one side ambushes the other. It’s an ambush. It’s also a battle. These are not mutually exclusive.

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    31. sebaciel,

      Just because it’s a cool sword, doesn’t mean it has to play a part. But even if did, Jon already got Longclaw. People speculated how Lightbringer is also Night’s Watch or Jon himself.

      Lightbringer is more fitting to be dragons. Lightbringer is just one sword to defeat the Others would be kinda of dissapointing, but three literally fire breathing dragons would be perfect for it and actually made a difference.

      Stargaryen,

      He should and will get better, no doubt but to fight wights who are just killing machines. He better be really good. But Jaime had a dream of fighting with a buring sword in his hand or flaming sword.

      Agree with Jorah, it could be an option.

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    32. Geralt of Rivia:
      Littlefinger’s dagger is a made from Valyrian steel.

      Luka Nieto,

      Bloodraven had one valyrian steel sword called Dark Sister in the books but Bloodraven and 3ER are different characters. It would be so fitting for Arya or Dany.

      I wonder, how many of them are left in show universe.

      I know about books universe Dark Sister (in possession of Bloodraven), Lady Forlorn (House Corbray), Nightfall ( House Harlaw), Red Rain ( House Reyne), Lamentation (House Royce), Brightroar (Hous Lannister),, Orphan-Maker, Truth (don’t remmeber House whic it belongs to)and Vigilance ( House Hightower)

      I know in the books exists Valyrian steel arakh who is wield by sellsword Caggo, also Valyrian steel axe of House Celtigar.

        Quote  Reply

    33. sebaciel,

      Dawn has not been proven to have an special uses like Valyrian Steel. yes it is said to be just as strong and sharp but nothing proven it holds up to the wights like Valyrian.

      DarthJason,

      Needle is not Valyrian steel! It is a Winterfell Castle Forged Sword by Mikken.

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    34. Geralt of Rivia:
      Littlefinger’s dagger is a made from Valyrian steel.

      Luka Nieto,

      Bloodraven had one valyrian steel sword called Dark Sister in the books but Bloodraven and 3ER are different characters. It would be so fitting for Arya or Dany.

      I wonder, how many of them are left in show universe.

      I know about books universe Dark Sister (in possession of Bloodraven), Lady Forlorn (House Corbray), Nightfall ( House Harlaw), Red Rain ( House Reyne), Lamentation (House Royce), Brightroar (Hous Lannister),, Orphan-Maker, Truth (don’t remmeber House whic it belongs to)and Vigilance ( House Hightower)

      I know in the books exists Valyrian steel arakh who is wield by sellsword Caggo, also Valyrian steel axe of House Celtigar.

      I really hoped that last season Meera would find Dark Sister in 3ER’s cave before they had to escape.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Geralt of Rivia,

      I would choose Jorah to wield the Heartsbane: it looks like he will befriend with Sam this season, and if he refused to take the Longcalw, it would be nice if he got a compensation.
      On the other hand: Sam is a known WW-slayer, he might wield the Heartsbane himself.

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    36. How exciting, love how dedicated fans are to camp out and take awesome pics.
      Widow’s Wail sounds quite cringe worthy, what was Joffery thinking?
      I always kind of wanted Dany to make Jorah a new Valyrian Steel Sword to basically thank him for his service to her but considering you need a witch with the knowledge of the old spells and Dany’s bad experiences with magic wielder’s I don’t think she would trust one of them near her dragons to make it.

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    37. Geralt of Rivia,

      Jon is as much a Stark as any of the other Stark children.

      I don’t think Jaime is going to play kingmaker. But I do think he will fight with/have Jon’s back. He can do it even without the backstory being included in the show.

      He has not mastered fighting with his left hand, yet. Maybe he never will. But he is training continuously, so he will get better. There is a reason why he dreamt of fighting with a flaming sword with Brienne, imo. They will both play some important role, whether in combat or in some other way.

      I agree Jon has Longclaw and he probably won’t fight with Dawn. However I did find it interesting that in the histories and lore video of House Dayne, when young Ned first mentions Dawn, Jon’s theme is played in the background. I wonder if it’s because the sword was present around the time he was born.

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    38. Geralt of Rivia,

      I think the halberd (or a broad spear) Areo Hotta had, was also Valyrian. I wonder will that end up at the Wall somehow? Obara liked such kind of weapons, so maybe she takes it and brings to Dany, but the further course is hard to predict.

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    39. Geralt of Rivia,

      Also you speak of Lightbringer as something else than a sword and then you mention Jaime having a dream of a flaming sword. Well Jon dreamed of himself clad in black ice wielding a flaming sword, just saying.

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    40. ghost of winterfell,

      Jon is most Stark of all of them whether looks (basically like Ned), moral code, personality. You can name it.

      If Jon gets a dragon, he’s got someone to look out for him. But I do believe we’ll get a conversation between them before the end of series.

      Like I said before, Jaime better be good because wights are no joke as we saw. You rightly mentioned his dream Jon, Dany, Brienne and Jaime do have similar dreams which points to their involvement in the war against white walkers.

      Jon’s theme echoes in History and Lore video most likely his birth. Dawn might really represent in AAR prophecy star factor. Born under bleeding star. While we’r at this subject of themes. When you combine Stark and Targaryen one, it goes well together. When Jon hanged Thorne and co they played part of it, during his birth or when Ned and Lyanna talked it, they played it again.

      Leaks spoilers.

      Irony is that he might not even be a Stark by name at all. If leaks are true he’s legitimized Targ. He’ll view hismelf as Stark but he’ll never be in name one, if he swithces surnames it’ll be to Taragaryen.

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    41. sebaciel:
      Geralt of Rivia,

      Dawn has been theorized to be the next Lightbringer. It’s too cool a sword not to come into play.

      They did show it at the TOJ scene. So Checkov’s Gun (er, Sword) would favor it being used. But on the other hand, House Dane has not be featured prominently in the show and I can’t recall anything in the show or the books about a mysterious sword being used anywhere recently. So that would go against it being used.

      Maybe they’ll have it at the Citadel because it is a very rare object that you’d think they would want to study or at least preserve if they had been able to obtain it. I would kind of like to see Sam show up with both Heartsbane and Dawn in the nick of time whenever the last big battle against the White Walkers happens (likely not this season I bet).

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    42. Luka Nieto,

      For those, who don’t understand what an ambush battle might potentially mean, I would recommend checking the Battle of Lake Trasimene. We had a GoT version of the Battle of Canae last season, so who knows: the showrunners may borrow some tactical solutions from Hannibal again.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Inga,

      I think so. There exists even a full black scale armor worn by Euron Greyjoy. That would be fun to see on the tv show. Besides other objects made from Valyrian steel.

      sebaciel,

      I know, it’s probably meant to connect them as important figures in the war of dawn Jon, Dany, Jaime and Brienne will play a pivotal roles. Where as Lightbringer could be literally something else, like dragons. Dragons could be very effective weapon and it it literally brings light to the darkness.

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    44. House Dayne and Dawn have been downplayed in the show but there has to be a reason why House Dayne’s official words are the only ones which have been deliberately kept a secret. And why there’s so much significance in the sword and its name, Dawn. The prophecized conflict with The Others/White Walkers has been called War for the Dawn. Dawn is milky white, forged from a falling star and said to be just as strong, if not stronger than a Valyrian Steel sword. Its wielder is known as The Sword of the Morning (light). House Dayne’s sigil is a falling star and we all know about the comet in the prophecy. Dawn is the first appearance of daylight, it also means ‘become clear’, ‘become light’. I wouldn’t be surprised if HD’s words have something to do with Lightbringer/WWs.

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    45. It’s good to see Widow’s Wail back in play again.

      I’ve been trying to go to another fan board to read more speculation but the site is down – I think maybe the Jaime-Brienne shippers crashed it. 🙂

      Geralt of Rivia: Leaks spoilers.

      Leak stuff:

      I don’t think Jon will ever change his name. He will remain Jon Snow, bastard of House Stark, The White Wolf and King of the North. That’s the core of his identity, not as a Targ. Jon will discover his parentage no doubt from Bran. But maybe he won’t reveal it to anyone else, not even Dany.

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    46. Well this certainly makes sure Jamie will be fighting in war of dawn… If they are not going to bury the sword with joffery then why even keep it with him

      Iam not going to get hopes on the screentime…it will be 15 to20 mins but will there be any build up scenes before to make it to 30 mins we have to see.

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    47. Dolorous Methuselah,

      They had Ned take Dawn to see Lyanna, they put emphasis on Dawn being placed at the end of Lyanna’s bed, zooming in on it. Such focus is never accidental in filmmaking. I would be surprised if it never reappears.

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    48. Flora Linden,

      Leaks spoilers.

      If he’ll ascend to Iron Throne, he’ll have to for political purpose. Stark or Snow wouldn’t be too profitable, He could and will maintain his Stark roots, he’ll always be more Stark than Targaryen. So, unless he dies, he’s changing his surname. Nor sure about first name, that would be weird a bit. I think, as far as reveal goes, Bran will tell them both when the get to North.

      sebaciel,

      Prophecy. “Born under the bleeding star”

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    49. Stargaryen: Dawn has not been proven to have an special uses like Valyrian Steel. yes it is said to be just as strong and sharp but nothing proven it holds up to the wights like Valyrian.

      Valyrian steel disintigrates White Walkers, not wights. I mean, any good sword will slice a wight in half, so a Valyrian steel sword is a great weapon against them too; but their actual weak spot is fire. Meanwhile, White Walkers have been shown (at Hardhome and the raven’s cave) to not only be immune to fire but actually repelling it.

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    50. Flora Linden,

      Do you really think that ? About Jon’s parentage I mean ? That would be terribly selfish. She should know as well .. She HAS TO.

      Also, Jaime and Brienne wielding swords that are two halves of the same whole is the most romantic thing I’ve ever heard of on GoT. Great writing on D&D’s part !

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    51. ghost of winterfell,

      Apart from all the contents about salt and smoke and bleeding star and waking dragons from stone and the sacrifice of two kings to wake a dragon all fitting the last chapter of AGOT

      The only AA reference we get in the series so far is ..

      .
      “He would know.” Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king’s son, a king’s brother, a king’s uncle. “I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”
      Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …
      “… would be a fine thing on the Wall.” Jon put aside his wine cup

      A Dance with Dragons

      .

      “He will not come,” Kraznys said.

      “There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.”

      The black dragon spread his wings and roared.

      A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the
      a burning crown twice as tall as his head.

      A Storm of Swords..

      I will let you make the decision yourself
      No other theories like any swords or NW have thisuch foreshadowings .
      If this was indicating to another character this quotes would have been known by everyone and their mothers by now …

      Although I think the show is now beyond the point to get into a in depth analysis of what certain things means for the books and how it happen there ….

      NK getting a dragon does not kill the theory about dragons being lightbringer rather I would say it strengthens the argument ..
      Its always been about dany and drogon in the show and in the books too ..other two dragons are just there to make the number three …and if NK gets a dragon then no sword nor a NW will be able to fight him ..only someone who is on another dragon will be able to fight him

        Quote  Reply

    52. It’s sad to see Stark’s ancestral sword be in a possession of two non-Starks. They should take both Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail and reforge it into Ice. Or have Jaime and Brienne sworn to House Stark, protecting those who are left (Brienne’s already Sansa’s sworn sword). It’d also be kind of poetic given Jaime and Brienne’s relationship.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Luka Nieto,

      That was a regular fire, not dragon fire with magic but then…

      Leaks spoilers.

      NK resurrects Viserion who is magical creature, so might be literally that only NK is immune to any kind of fire.

      Irina Stark,

      If I were you, I wouldn’t be really looking towards that moment.

      sebaciel,

      Not like any other Starks are that better swordsman, Jon got one. They could reforged it back to Ice but for the war Ice as grearsword would be impractical. Brienne is sworn sword to Sansa, Jaime was Lannister wouldn’t be exactly welcomed.

        Quote  Reply

    54. dragonbringer,

      I personally never thought the AA and Nissa Nissa prophecy will come true. What about Thoros of Myr and his flaming sword ? What the hell is the point in killing Dany to get a sword when, riding Drogon she becomes the most powerful weapon in the world ? Dany and Drogon have to fight him at the end. And probably die in the process. *sound of heart break*

        Quote  Reply

    55. Luka Nieto,

      Do we know what happens to all this goods and booty…

      Will it be taken by dany and dothraki or destroyed by them..

      I can’t imagine both dany and dothraki destroying food supplies …

      Geralt of Rivia,

      Except it was not the real quote of the prophecy as we know…

      When the stars bleed or under the bleeding star AAR shall drew a fiery sword from the fire and that sword will be named as lightbtinger…

      Nothing is said about born under bleeding star …
      Even if we assume that this is true jon was not born under bleeding star .,only lyanna died under bleeding star ..

        Quote  Reply

    56. dragonbringer,

      Lmao so now only Drogon matters and the other 2 are there just to make up the numbers?

      I have no doubt that Dany is AA, the only difference is I don’t think she is the only one 🙂 .

        Quote  Reply

    57. dragonbringer,

      Under bleeding star = Arthur Dayne’s death (right when he got killed, Lyanna screamed in labour). House Dayne’s sigil is a falling a star, Dawn is made from a falling star. And who knows what the House’s words are.

        Quote  Reply

    58. dragonbringer,

      As sebaciel said it.

      Leaks spoilers.

      As we learned from the leaks three headed dragon is not Dany and there will be other riders. There is a reason why they put Dawn when Jon was born or while they were having that scene and why camera focused on this. It’s their way of saying Jon is tied to AAR/PtwP prophecy like Dany. Two sides of the same coin.

      Irina Stark,

      I am not saying he’ll thrown like get the fu*k off but it will complicate things between them. From storytelling poit of view a good choice. I agree they need to know, what’s the point of having only two people who it may concern, not telling it. They has to know, as you said.

        Quote  Reply

    59. dragonbringer,

      Wasn’t Drogon also the egg that was placed near Drogo’s heart?

      To add to the dragons may be lightbringer
      There is also that Stannis quote from ASOS Davos V where he compares his “lightbringer” to dragons

      She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?” He ground his teeth. “We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!” Stannis gave a derisive snort. “It glimmers prettily, I’ll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle.

      And the quote from GRRM himself comparing Dany’s dragons to Aragorn’s magical sword

      In Tolkien, Aragorn’s sword is magical because it just is ; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks. The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along ; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive–not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules . https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=49161

        Quote  Reply

    60. sebaciel,

      Yes, House Dayne is rather mysterious in the books. For instance, Ashara Dayne is said to have purple eyes which hint to some Targarian blood, but there’s no no explicit information about any kind of intermarriage between the Daynes and the Targarian scions (male or female), and in general Dayne genealogy is left ambiguous (we don’t even know who were Arthur’s and Ashara’s parents.
      Moreover, in the books Barristan Selmy thinks that Dany resembles Ashara and that she could even be her daughter, although to his knowledge Ashara’s daughter was stillborn and Dany is the daughter of Aerys the Mad King and Rhaella.
      Interesting…

        Quote  Reply

    61. LEAKS:

      Am I the only one absolutely amped that

      the Night King will kill Viserion and rez him as a Wight Dragon??? The thought is so bad ass it gives me chills

        Quote  Reply

    62. Irina Stark,

      They already did come true

      Drogo was called sun and stars by dany and dany was called moon of my life( Nissa Nissa means moon ) by Drogo ..

      As we know the stories speaks about when sun and moon co
      Came close moon cracked and dragons fell into the world..

      So drogo and dany marrying resulted in the birth of dragons

      One thing dany does when it comes to prophecies is gender reversal ..

      As Aemon says.,
      No body looked for a girl

      Nobody thought it would be a princess
      Nobody looked for khalessi to unite the whole dothraki
      Nobody thinks AAR to be a women ..with dany and drogo ..dany(moon of his life ) kills drogo ( sun and stars )..reversing the role

      And from the moment drogon was born he has been warm and reminds of drogo’s warm ..

      Thoros getting the power and Rhllor’s power increasing is all basically due to dany’s pyre moment and birth of dragons..

      In the books HOTU chapter dany and drogon encounter a blue corrupted heart that gives power to whole undying in HoTU..dany and drogon destroy the blue heart and killing the undying ..
      The corrupted blue heart can be taken as Heart of winter which gives power to NK and his undead..
      So its always been my belief that dany and drogon will sacrifice themselves in the process of destroying heart of winter ..

      Things like ghost arya dany mel being nissa nissa will never make sense but it will come and go based on what situation the plot is because it will keep changing as the episode goes

        Quote  Reply

    63. Inga,

      Wow. The similarities are actually striking. Both battles are ambushes in which the attackers strike the unsuspecting enemy just as they pass near a lake, cornering them. There’s even a few other specific similarities if you read into Livy’s account of the ambush. I think you might have just found D&D’s inspiration for the tactics in this ambush. Honestly. If I remember, I’ll mention it as speculation in the next report and credit you for the find.

        Quote  Reply

    64. dragonbringer,

      Again, Martin doesn’t do things literally, he doesn’t spell his plot points out like that. And before you scream RLJ, it’s never been obvious, it’s never been spelt out. And there’s been 20 years for fans to figure it out from the hints that he’s put in his books.

        Quote  Reply

    65. sebaciel:
      Maggie,

      Walder Frey was also a Kingslayer, and Euron is one as well.

      Olenna Tyrell as well.,,, but one is called The Kingslayer in the whole series.
      Jaime have watched a dream with him and Brienne holding burning swords, Oathkeeper and Wail are made from Ice e.t.c
      My theory is solid. Everyone here have theories. Why Jaime can’t kill Night’s Kings?

        Quote  Reply

    66. ghost of winterfell,

      Did I say they never matter ..no I did not..i said they have been secondary to drogon and always been there to give dany the another three references in her arc…as we know from letter of GRRm he only planned to have one dragon in the story and as i was saying NK getting a dragon does not take away dany hatched three dragons ..instead this only strengthens the theory ..

      Its like tom riddle and harry potter fighting with eans that are twins..

      Actually I have no problem with other being AAr if they meet the requirements given in the books..

      Jay Targ,

      Yes thank you for that quote ..

        Quote  Reply

    67. dragonbringer,

      wonderful totally agree with u on lightbringer being dragons, always been my belief. Just keep high your hopes for this fight sequence coz will be huge , in the past dany was in essos so she had less screen time , but now i mean dont forget that this fight clash between dothraki and lannisters has been foreshadowed since robert and cersei talks in season 1, it will be huge , on the ambush thing , keep in mind that many great battles in history started with an ambush like teutoburgo or lake trasimeno, the ambush is part of the dothraki warfare

        Quote  Reply

    68. sebaciel,

      And we will never know ..because they are never to be seen in the series ..

      So now we have to assume Jon is being born while Arthur dayne fighting and dying …

      . Again, Martin doesn’t do things literally, he doesn’t spell his plot points out like that.

      Yeah because when it comes to other characters these foreshadowings must be ignored because they are too literal for your taste..
      If your only argument is that its too obvious then its not a good argument

      Geralt of Rivia,

      I would like to hear that said from the showrunners themselves if that had such significance ..
      They never shy away from saying things when it comes to prophecies ..
      Theu have spoken about dany being fulfilling a prophecy or becoming a chosen one three times as far as i rememeber …yet no one spoke about this..

      Atleast we would have gotten some info like we did with rhaehar being the dad and so ..

      Anyways quite frankly iam too bored to talk about all this same things again and again which I had done before …

      Let Jon wield longclaw with one hand and using the other hand thrust dawn inside dany and let it come to life and he can fly drogon as well …I don’t care anymore

      So Good day to you guys .

        Quote  Reply

    69. ivarthebonelessareios,

      Thank you ..

      Yeah iam looking forward to the dothraki and how show portrays them..

      I have no doubt that ambush will be visually stunning like hardhome and battle of bastards..
      I think my disappointment comes mainly from two reasons
      1) i was expecting a full scale battle which takes full episode like blackwater since this is going to be the last battle we will be having in south before war of dawn begins ..and since we didn’t have miguel I expected Alan Taylor to do this but iam sure matt will do his best job

      2) reading the leaks about tyrion and varys reactions have taken the fun as well ..and i have to admit this is the reason I can’t seem to enjoy the ambush scene and regret reading leaks this season

        Quote  Reply

    70. Maggie,

      Martin wouldn’t have Jon (whose entire story has been about the threats from beyond The Wall), Daenerys and Bran in the story then. Jaime will play his part (as a protector of House Stark) and die ‘in the arms of the woman he loves’.

        Quote  Reply

    71. dragonbringer,
      really focused with a literal explanation of prophecies. As George said, they are tricky. Maybe, it’s a metaphor for people finding strength and rising to the occasion. I don’t believe in such a simplistic way of one person leading them, being THE ONE GUY or so.

      Of course showrunners not gonna say much about Dawn because we don’t have the other part of his heritage sorted out on the screen. They don’t even bother to go to much detail about birth itself. So there’s that for next season.

      Is it really necessary mocking Jon, wielding both Longclaw and Dawn thrusting into Dany and riding a Drogon. I know some certain fans of Jon are saying that. Why do you have to be passive agressive on this subject of Jon and Dany? Nobody here is saying that if my eyes serves me correctly. This is the thing with some of her or his fans, who are so dead set on she or he HAS to be the only one and if someone disagrees. then all hell breaks loose. It’s very clear as far as show goes, both of them are two sides of the same coin.

      Why do you think Dawn was there? Why do you think Jon and Dany were both proclaimed PtwP in the same season, why so much of it mirrors each other? Why two rebirths?

      Why do you think Bran had visions of white walkers birth or creation, Hodor’s origins and Jon’s birth last season? All of them is tied to this plot in some way. Why each and every picture in Bran’s vision in 4×02 is meant to be there for a reason. D&D are looking at details, even if people don’t give them credit for. Just for fun or what?

        Quote  Reply

    72. sebaciel:
      Maggie,

      Martin wouldn’t haveJon (whose entire story has been about the threats from beyond The Wall), Daenerys and Bran in the story then. Jaime will play his part (as a protector of House Stark) and die ‘in the arms of the woman he loves’.

      Ok, it’s cool that you know how the story ends and other people can’t have theories.
      “in the arms of the woman he loves” is a show only thing, which may mean something or nothing.
      GRRM don’t include something like this. He has Jaime dreaming of fighting people armoured ice, but you now this can’t happen because Jaime never goes to North, he kills Cersei and then dies… OH WAIT…

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    73. That moment when you get super excited at the prospect of Jaime finally being involved in a major action sequence and getting to see what he’s fully capable of…only to remember that he sucks at fighting with his left hand.

      ghost of winterfell,

      Blasphemy. I have it on good authority from a certain super unbiased contingent of this fandom that every other character is expendable. I choose not to hold the likelihood that they skipped every chapter taking place outside of Essos against them. It can be really tedious slogging through the 90% of the series dedicated to those shiny distractions masquerading as other protagonists.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Has Brienne even told Sansa Oathkeeper was forged from Ice? That’s a small but important thing to just omit like that (but D and D do that so). Both Jaime and Brienne should at least try to give their respective swords back to House Stark so that Starks can decide whether to have them keep the swords (it’s only fitting seeing as Ice was stolen from them) or accept them. Kind of like what Jon

      supposedly does with Longclaw in the spoiler IF it’s true, that is offer it to Jorah for Jorah to decline.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Jaime will forge Lightbringer after the sacrifice of his Nissa Nissa… it will be melded with his golden hand and he will have his fighting arm back. Yep. That’s my story and I’m stickin to it.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Geralt of Rivia,

      Forgive me for obsessed when someone neglects fivebooks of foreshadowings and brush it off as its obvious and red herring ..
      And as i said i dont really want to talk this about the prophecies anymore because i myself feel sick of having same discussions

      Dawn was there as a sword of the dayne …they also focused on longclaw in the third episode .

      As I said many times iam not against Jon being AAR..I even spoke about him getting to ride a dragon this season and thought that it would be the appropriate moment …
      It would be better if people not keep changing the lightbringer and salt and smoke and bleeding star as the episode progresses when it comes to Jon..

      Like I said let’s leave it at that and agree to disagree

        Quote  Reply

    77. Exciting! Especially since Jaime had that dream of Brienne and him fighting with FLAMING SWORDS!!! My shipper heart is beating!!

      Now all we need is for Gendry or someone to reforge LF’s dagger for Arya (Needle 2.0) and for Heartsbane to be given to someone like Jorah or The Hound. Hype!

        Quote  Reply

    78. sebaciel,

      It hasn’t been mentioned either way, but Brienne is supposed to have filled her in on important information offscreen, so I guess you can assume so. Brienne’s possession of the sword makes sense either way, since she’s Sansa’s sworn sword — Sansa herself obviously isn’t going to have use for it, she’d have to give it somebody else (and Jon already has a Valyrian steel sword).

        Quote  Reply

    79. elybe

      Oh please …

      the post I was replying was about dany and three dragons not dany and all other characters ..
      So when i said its always been about dany and drogon …i was speaking about dany and her dragons …other two are there and have been secondary when it comes to drogon which is true in both books and show ( be it HOTU or astopor or Daznak its been drogon alone ) ..can you say its not the case ..

        Quote  Reply

    80. Geralt of Rivia,

      That’s a really strong point. It won’t be the regular story of one hero that saves the day, most likely J&D will be the two heroes and it’s much more exciting that way too. The posibilities are endless.

      Maggie,

      That would pretty much make Jaime the most badass character in the entire series. Either way, his role in the War will be huge. I want him to reach some form of redemption and clease himself of Cersei and her venom. (I love her too btw. Some villains you just can’t hate)

        Quote  Reply

    81. Jaime and Brienne wielding the two swords that once comprised the two halves of Ice is extremely fitting and poignant, particularly after that excellent moment last season in which Jaime refused to take Oathkeeper back from Brienne (“It’s yours. It will always be yours.” God, I loved that scene).

      While it would be tragic to see them wield the swords in battle against one another, I lean towards the scenario that several others have already put forward, one that seems more likely and more poetic. Namely, Jaime and Brienne may wield those swords together, side-by-side in battle, against the White Walkers in Season 8. (That prospect would certainly set the Brienne-Jaime ‘shippers hearts ablaze; Tormund was already facing an uphill battle in his quest for her affections, and I’m afraid he can’t compete with that! 😉 )

      LEAK-BASED SPECULATION

      It seems that all of the known Valyrian steel weapons that have been appeared in the show to date may come into play this season, and will eventually make their way to the North.

      Longclaw. The ancestral sword of House Mormont. Currently wielded by Jon Snow, the King in the North.

      Oathkeeper. One of the two swords forged from the Stark greatsword Ice. Currently wielded by Brienne of Tarth, sworn sword to Sansa Stark, the Lady of Winterfell.

      Widow’s Wail. One of the two swords forged from the Stark greatsword Ice. Now known to be held by Jaime Lannister, who, if the leaks are accurate, will leave Cersei’s side to head north at the end of the season.

      The dragonbone dagger. The weapon used in the failed assassination attempt on Bran Stark. Last seen in the possession of Petyr Baelish. If the leaks are to be believed, Arya Stark will acquire this dagger and use it to execute Baelish at Sansa’s behest. After her training with the Faceless Men, she could be quite effective were she to continue to wield it in the wars to come.

      Heartsbane. The ancestral sword of House Tarly. Currently in the possession of Samwell Tarly. Sam probably won’t be wielding Heartbane himself, but he’ll entrust it to someone worthy before the final battle. Jorah seems like a decent candidate for that responsibility, since Sam and Jorah share a connection via Lord Commander Mormont, and we know they’ll meet this season. Furthermore, Jorah will reportedly refuse to accept Longclaw back when Jon offers it to him. After giving up Longclaw in shame to the dishonor that he brought on his house, it would be fitting if he were granted the opportunity to wield another Valyrian steel sword after spending years in exile and finally regaining some measure of his honor through his loyal service to Daenerys.

      Personally, however, I’d like to see Sam entrust Heartsbane to the Hound. I have no thematic or narrative justification for that; I just think that the prospect of Sandor Clegane wielding a Valyrian steel sword against the White Walkers sounds fucking awesome. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    82. Good photos of the set taken this time! At least they are in focus which is more than can be said for those two recent videos 😉

      I’m not surprised so many filming leaks have come out of Spain. When using locations such as this surrounded by woodland, for security guards to patrol the perimeter or look for view points where the set can be filmed surreptitiously by fans is neigh on impossible!

      Los Barruecos is nothing like “Area 51” and with no armed guards to deter away visitors hehe 😀

        Quote  Reply

    83. Flayed Potatoes,

      Or maybe the Hound ? I could see him wielding Heartsbane. And why is everyone fighting about Dawn ? They need to find it first and then we can start the real talk. I don’t think Jon should ever give up Longclaw. It’s such a huge part of who he is. It would be like trading Ghost for a dragon. Just no !

      dragonbringer,

      Prophecies are a nasty business and George is sneaky with dropping hints. I’ve just finished rereading the first book a few days ago and I started to pick up the little hints like when Mirri is in the tent “ressurecting” Drogo and Dany sees a projection of shadows on the tent and the shadows just so happen to be “a huge wolf” and “a man surrounded by flames” .. That just screamed Jon to me. So idk, we’ll have to wait and see.

        Quote  Reply

    84. I like the theory that Jaime and Brienne will use their swords to fight the Others and their army together, but I think it is also likely that Sam will learn that Ice will be needed to defeat the Others. Gendry will then reforge Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail into Ice to be used by Jon or Bran or someone else to win the ultimate battle.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Irina Stark,

      You bring me up to another point both of them are Gods or like a messiah figure to their people. People are so preoccupied with who it will be, where it might be both of them. Like one can’t do it without the other. I was for long convinced Dany is the only one. Just to be clear.

      Also this.

      Leaks spoilers.

      Jon will get close to a dragon and probably ride one, along with Dany. Yet, again only two of them. The other is for NK as leaks says.

      Jared,

      Don’t forget Hound always wanted a Valyrian steel sword and every fu*king chicken in this room.

        Quote  Reply

    86. The whole point of Jaime losing his hand and becoming rubbish at swordfighting as consequence was about losing his baddass arrogant warrior self, never being able to go back to it and developing a new self, a better self, for himself instead. There was a reason why Martin told D and D to make Jaime even worse of a swordsman than they made him out to be in the scripts after he lost his hand.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Geralt of Rivia,

      I like that, a lot more than just having one. It’s a very unique concept and it’s true to the story itself since nothing about GRRM’s epic fantasy style is ordinary. Also, the whole thing about the dragon having three heads never spoke to me, I initially thought it’d be Jon Dany and Bran warging in one, the Tyrion theory seemed too far fetched for my taste. Then

      when the leaks came out I realized that it wouldn’t add that much to the actual story, it was just Rhaegar being a little bit too obsessed. I actually don’t think Jon will ever ride a dragon. Maybe in S8 but even then I just don’t see it, Dany raised them so naturally they could never be as comfortable with Jon as they are with Dany, even if he is Rhaegar’s son, it would feel rushed and a little bit cringy.

      Not to sound facetious but Rhaegar never had a dragon, he never rode one, etc. He was pretty and a great fighter (like Jon) nonetheless. I think I’m being a bit biased saying this because I just love Jon as Jon Snow, a son of the North, a White Wolf with Ghost by his side and I don’t think I could never see him differently. Daenerys is plenty Targaryen for me.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Geralt of Rivia,

      I know that’s why I mentioned it.it was so funny.My fave part was when he thought that at least the Mel scene would be inside but even that was in a tent outside lol.And he literally did all the stunts himself.The riding and the horses charging and the fighting.It’s pretty impressive.

        Quote  Reply

    89. dragonbringer,

      I didn’t actually read your post, though. I kind of just inferred from ghost of winterfell that we’d moved into that general territory. Again.

      I mean, I think the books and show have been pretty deliberate in their parallels, set-ups, and foreshadowing, but if you think people overlook subtext in Dany’s chapters, check out a few other forums sometime to get a load of the extent of her fandom’s aggrandizement of her role in this series and insistence that she is the paramount hero with no equals to speak of. Brace yourself, though. I’d been led to believe that JS fans were the only ones who ever posted that kind of crap, so this was quite an eye-opener. That part about every other character being expendable? Verbatim.

      Anyway, I’m not even sure how prophecies came into this. I came to this thread for the visuals. I was told there’d be lots of horses.

        Quote  Reply

    90. sebaciel:
      Has Brienne even told Sansa Oathkeeper was forged from Ice? That’s a small but important thing to just omit like that (but D and D do that so). Both Jaime and Brienne should at least try to give their respective swords back to House Stark so that Starks can decide whether to have them keep the swords (it’s only fitting seeing as Ice was stolen from them) or accept them. Kind of like what Jon

      In the books when Joffry is presented with WW she states what have they done with her father’s sword, yet in the show she says nothing, but it looks as if she recognized the sword as part of ICE.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Why doesn’t the Lannister army post any sentries? Letting spies get that close to your forces to gain information on your numbers and dispositions is most unprofessional. No wonder that they will end up losing.

        Quote  Reply

    92. As far as Heartbane, I’m satisfied with either Clegane or Jorah, but I give the edge to Sandor as he did protect both Sansa and Arya.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Wilmer Atkinson,

      The only region to withstand Targs and their dragons when the they first invaded Westeros was Dorne, and only because they went guerrilla on Targs and dragons. The rest of the place either surrendered or tried more traditional approaches, and lost.

      My problem with this scenario is that there’s doubt about the potential winner. Dany is, I believe, more powerful than Aegon was when he invaded. Westeros is more divided, being ruled by a mad queen. Cersei is at the Red Keep. Dany has dragons. That should reduce Cersei’s life expectancy to the time it takes a dragon to fly from Dragonstone to the Red Keep. Euron has a thousand? ships made of wood. The life expectancy for that navy should be limited to the time Dany’s dragons take to find said navy and burn it down. Same goes for any and all armies the Lannisters are capable of fielding. With dragons, they’re doomed.

      It sounds like the show is trying to keep Dany at Dragonstone, trying to keep her from using her dragons, as otherwise she would quickly smite the hell out of Cersei. I’m not sure if there’s a believable way of accomplishing this, but we’ll see.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Jenny,

      Yeah, like they’re doing their best to keep him fro many warm places. That’s why was Kit so happy in Spain. lol I love the celery eating bit. Once battle started, Sophie eat your celery and Kit in the meantime brought up his and started eating before her. Sophie and Kit were hilarious and Miguel too. Their story of Liam being angry and not even knowing Emilia and Alfie had a scene. Like WTF they were filming together?

        Quote  Reply

    95. Geralt of Rivia,

      Yeah Spain was such an upgrade from last year lol.The whole thing was hillarious.I loved Sophie’s genuine enthusiasm at everything,them reenacting the battlements scene in ep 10 and Kit being so pleased with himself that he remembered what Rickon’s wolf was called.Btw the one for ep 10 with David and Dan,Peter and Lena was also great.Peter had me in stiches and Lena is just delightful.

        Quote  Reply

    96. I wonder whether Dany gives her life for the kingdom in the end by thrusting Jon’s sword into her own body?

      It seems that it required a sacrifice of a loving wife to bring Lightbringer to life. It would be a fitting sacrifice if a major character had to give their life to do so again.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Jenny,

      Kit thought Sansa’s direwolf was called Summer and Sansa thought Grey Wind was Rickon’s. Also, how horses were shitting all over the place and their scene with Ramsay was worse than any riding. Horse are accustomed for riding and they were bored when standing. Pete and Lena were amazing, as Weiss said an insightful commentary “horses are big”. lol

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    98. As for the leaks:

      There’s a sword in the books called Lady Forlorn that’s with a Ser Lyn Corbray of the Vale. I mean if there’s a sword for Sandor, it would be that one wouldn’t it? Ser Lyn is likely in the service of Littlefinger and will probably come along with him and Sansa to the North once her plot in the Vale is done. If the leaks are to be believed and Littlefinger gets his due in Winterfell, so would likely his consorts in the books. This would mean that Lady Forlorn could go to somebody. Lady Forlorn can mean two things: lonely lady or bereft of lady. Sansa is literally bereft of Lady, her Direwolf. She is forlorn of Lady. Sandor would be her new Hound. That would mean:
      – Jon, Longclaw
      – Brienne, Oathkeeper
      – Jaime, Widow’s Wail
      – Arya, Dragonbone Dagger
      – Sandor, Lady Forlorn
      – Jorah, Heartsbane

      Yeah, Jorah would get Heartsbane due to him running into Sam at Oldtown in the show. Sam would entrust Jorah with Heartsbane as a sign of trust in the sense of: “You have to believe me, I wouldn’t give you my ancestral sword if I was making this WW-threat up. Now go North and convince your Queen of our cause!”. I can kinda see him being the one to slay Undead Viserion, whose death and resurrection is obviously a bane to Dany’s heart. While Jaime and Brienne slay the Nightsking together with both parts of Ice, before Jon turns into the new Nightsking.. (armor of ice reference from the books).. kills Jaime who dies in Brienne’s arms and gets killed by Arya. #stick’emwiththepointyend..

      Meanwhile on Dragonstone: Danrio is still a thing.. #bluehairedtargs..

      Holy cow.. maybe Jaime and Brienne will be Jon’s Kingsguard? The wielders of Ice are his “armor” of Ice?

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    99. Kay,

      I think all the Starks will fight against the WW someway or another, Jon will be the on who leads the human “kind” against the WW, Bran will be extremely useful against them too (perhaps he can control the NK’s new pet), Arya will also fight, she has massive fighting skills (perhaps better than Jon and Jaime, yay!) and Sansa…well I Don’t know about her actually, she obviously doesn’t know anaything about battles, she doesn’t know how to use a sword, but perhaps, whilst everyone is fighting, she (and Varys/Tyrion) will rule as regent (?) I’m not sure, what Do you guys think?

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    100. Guys i love Jaime as much as you do but for some reason i don’t want a Lannister to have Ned’s sword . I was so mad at Brienne when she offered oathkeeper back to Jaime instead of giving it to Sansa (out of respect) . They should give both swords back to the Starks.

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    101. Alvaricomg,

      Well someone has to protect the people. Keep them in line, safe and fed so they won’t panic while the soldiers fight. Jon is a commander ,Dany has dragons ,Bran has powers and Arya is a fighter but someone has to make sure there is still a kingdom for them to return after the battle.Sansa did that during the battle of the Blackwater and she was really good. Also someone has to make sure that certain people who love “chaos” don’t take advantage of their situation . Tyrion will share the burden with her.

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    102. Ser Oromis Locke,

      That’s certainly a possibility. Lady Forlorn hasn’t been name-dropped in the show yet, but it was mentioned in the Histories & Lore video on Valyrian steel that was released with the Season 4 Blu-Ray (Heartsbane was also mentioned in that video, years before it ever appeared on the show. And as luck would have it, that video was narrated by Iain Glen as Jorah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef-3w6vRSWQ).

      Lyn Corbray hasn’t been mentioned on the show, which probably for the best, given his dark proclivities. But a member of House Corbray did appear in Season 4 at Littlefinger’s questioning by the Lords of Vale. Vance Corbray, I believe his name was. Regardless, the knights of House Corbray presumably traveled north with the other Knights of the Vale to Winterfell in Season 6. So if the show wanted to introduce Lady Forlorn in Season 7 or Season 8, it wouldn’t be too hard to do so. It’s not a guarantee of anything, of course, they have laid at least a bit of groundwork for such a reveal.

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    103. Inga:
      Luka Nieto,

      For those, who don’t understand what an ambush battle might potentially mean, I would recommend checking the Battle of Lake Trasimene. We had a GoT version of the Battle of Canae last season, so who knows: the showrunners may borrow some tactical solutions from Hannibal again.

      OneDon:
      Inga,

      I found these vidoes of battles you mentioned

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MroGPObEZzk

      Oh WOW! THANK YOU both! That YT vid was extremely illuminating. I am now convinced that The Ambush will be mapped along the lines of the Battle of Lake Trasimene. If so, it will be a glorious visual! 😀 Also I now understand why it will take so long to film and involve so many extras. It’s extremely intricate and awesomely planned; the movements of the various groups are like a dance. Also, it makes it clear that while the bulk of the ambush will have horse-riding combatants, i.e. the Dothraki, a small group of the infantry, i.e. Unsullied, will be used at the front to “bait” the Romans, err….. the Lannisters. Perhaps explaining why Greyworm has been sighted, but only very briefly. The Lannisters will be driven into the lake. The lake is a very important part of this staged ambush, not only as a boundary, but also to ensure that the Lannisters have nowhere to run but into the water with their heavy armor on! The Romans died because of the lake – they couldn’t run.
      So D and D are following the big battles of Hannibal against the Romans, huh? The battle of Canae last season, and now the ambush battle of Lake Trasimene?

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    104. Alvaricomg:
      Kay,

      Arya will also fight, she has massive fighting skills (perhaps better than Jon and Jaime, yay!)

      Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here lmao. Arya would have been toast in Hardhome and BtoB and she got beat up pretty badly by the Waif for most of season 6. She’ll probably end up fighting, but she has nowhere near the same level of stamina and skills as characters who have been fighting in battles all their lives.

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    105. Alvaricomg:
      Kay,

      I think all the Starks will fight against the WW someway or another, Jon will be the on who leads the human “kind” against the WW, Bran will be extremely useful against them too (perhaps he can control the NK’s new pet), Arya will also fight, she has massive fighting skills (perhaps better than Jon and Jaime, yay!) and Sansa…well I Don’t know about her actually, she obviously doesn’t know anaything about battles, she doesn’t know how to use a sword, but perhaps, whilst everyone is fighting, she (and Varys/Tyrion) will rule as regent (?) I’m not sure, what Do you guys think?

      Go back to season 2 Battle of Blackwater, I always thought Sansa’s role was:
      1; Get her home back
      2: Get her family back
      3: hopefully find LF money and per Allayne chapters

      she knows LF is buying and hoarding the food supplies, she would use that to help the North

      4: Kill outright or by stealth cause the death of LF
      5: Queen, QITN, die in child birth leaving a heir for her house or worst case she and her siblings all die saving the realm

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    106. Inga,

      Valyrian steel swords are some of the most valuable objects in the world, it’d be totally absurd to bury it with a corpse. I never understood why people thought this was a realistic possibility. It was with Joffrey’s corpse because it was lying in state and served to enhance his ‘majesty’, that’s all.

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    107. Flayed Potatoes,

      People forget that Arya’s main thing is stealth and hiding. Not confrontational traditional fight like a soldier. Jon got much superior skills, experiences in that and it takes years of practice. Arya practiced a bit of water dancing which could be handy but you can’t really compare that to Jon, Jorah or Hound for example.

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    108. konna,

      Brienne trying to return the sword to Jaime is indeed absurd, but I’m not sure what you mean by “offering it to Sansa”. What would Sansa do with it? Brienne is Sansa’s sworn sword, it makes sense for her to use it in Sansa’s service. Whenever Brienne retires from her role, it should remain in the Stark family, but as long as she’s in their service, it belongs with her.

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    109. Sean C.:
      konna,

      Brienne trying to return the sword to Jaime is indeed absurd, but I’m not sure what you mean by “offering it to Sansa”.What would Sansa do with it?Brienne is Sansa’s sworn sword, it makes sense for her to use it in Sansa’s service.Whenever Brienne retires from her role, it should remain in the Stark family, but as long as she’s in their service, it belongs with her.

      I just replaced Sansa with House Stark.
      Either way if the war with WW is won and the Starks are the main reason for it then both WW and OK should be returned to them and if there are free VSS left she should be given a new one.

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    110. Anybody notice those Tarly shields in the updated photos with the Lannister men? Did we know already that the Tarlys are jumping off the Tyrell bandwagon?

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    111. JH61:
      Anybody notice those Tarly shields in the updated photos with the Lannister men? Did we know already that the Tarlys are jumping off the Tyrell bandwagon?

      Where do you see Tarly shields?

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    112. Emilia and Kit at the same time in Belfast . What do you guys think? They are filming more scenes together? Belfast Is the location used for scenes In Winterfell and north, right?

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    113. In the last picture, you may notice Randyll Tarly mounted on a horse, next to someone who is either Jaime or Dickon Tarly, also ahorse

      This is not Jaime (note the color of the horse), but probably Dickon Tarly – both Tarlys were seen in several of Rick’s pictures before: Tarlys on the battlefield

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    114. Flayed Potatoes,

      She lacks experience . The waif may not be the best fm but she was badass as a fighter(the scene when she has no stick).Arya is quick , cunning and flexible , her abilities make her the best killer of the show (except Jaqen) but killing and fighting isn’t the same thing. For example , Arya can easily kill (murder) the hound but she doesn’t have the skills to fight him and win, at least not yet.She may be better than the average soldier -knight but not better than Jon or Sandor .

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    115. Dorian,

      Cultural differences: when I see something put by/on a corpse in state, I assume it as a part of burial inventory totally subconsciously. And I have seen so many rich burials (as well as research works on their inventories and their prices) that a Valyrian steel sword wouldn’t surprise me, especially considering that the funeral was arranged by a loving mother Cersey. Never mind.

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    116. Sean C.:
      konna,

      Brienne trying to return the sword to Jaime is indeed absurd, but I’m not sure what you mean by “offering it to Sansa”.What would Sansa do with it?Brienne is Sansa’s sworn sword, it makes sense for her to use it in Sansa’s service.Whenever Brienne retires from her role, it should remain in the Stark family, but as long as she’s in their service, it belongs with her.

      Brienne is currently holding onto a stolen sword. It does not actually belong to her unless the Starks are okay with that.

      The Starks should decide on what to do with their ancestral sword. It’s not Brienne’s or Jaime’s right to decide on the ownership of that sword. Since Bran is at WF next season, Brienne should offer it back to him and let him decide who can wield it.

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    117. HotPinkLipstick:
      Ice wasn’t stolen from Ned. He confessed and forfeit his possessions. That’s not stealing anything.

      It’s the spoils of war. If Brienne believes that the Starks have no rights to their swords, then she is a Lannister stooge.

      Again, Bran should decide who wields Oathbreaker. Then Brienne would not do absurd things like try to give back the Stark sword to the man who crippled Bran.

      Jaime of course is not going to care about all this. He probably thinks that Widow’s wail is rightfully his.

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    118. sebaciel:
      Randyll Tarly,

      http://www.justjared.com/photo-gallery/3813587/nikolaj-coster-waldau-and-jerome-flynn-continue-game-of-thrones-filming-in-spain-16/
      Actually those are set photos from yesterday according to JJ. Still there will be Highgarden scenes with jaime and Bronn in episode 1 or 7, or the reports from here and L7R were wrong and it really is Casterly Rock.

      Those photos are of course not from yesterday – filming in Trujillo has finished a week ago. But I was talking about the cropped photo you used; if using a source, it is just fair play to quote it.

      By the way, from all context we know I highly doubt there will be Highgarden scenes in episode 1 or 7 (just my opinion) – but there probably will be some Highgarden scenes from other episodes filmed in Trujillo 😉 .

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    119. sebaciel,

      No. Casterly Rock won’t be on the premiere or the finale that we know of, and Jaime will be in King’s Landing in both episodes anyway. If the Trujillo scenes are truly from either of those episodes, it’s going to be King’s Landing. The only alternative is that Podeswa was filming a scene from another episode; not unheard of, but rare. There may be more than one scene filmed at Trujillo, because the reports of the barrels and such definitely point to Highgarden.

      Trujillo being Highgarden was explicitly presented as speculation, by the way. It was the only option we could think of, so it seemed pretty clear, but it was still not reported as 100% confirmed fact.

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    120. SerNoName,

      If you think the swords are spoils of war, they go to the victor or the side that obtained them, so they still don’t belong to the Starks. When you confess, or you know, lose to the other side, and they take your stuff, it’s not stealing.

      Loss of the swords is a result of either Ned’s confession or the Starks losing. Not theft. To the victor go the spoils. The Starks lost. The Lannisters got the spoils.

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    121. sebaciel,

      Should be Ep 1 then: Ep 7 makes no sense. And if Jaime sacks HG in Ep 1, and Dany learns that somehow when she approaches the coasts of Westeros, that can be the reason why she will land on Dragonstone. There will be simply no more friendly territory left in the mainlands: from the Reach Jaime will be sending his forces to Dorne, and Euron will be attacking it from the sea, the Sand Snakes will panic and sail to Dany, probably intercepting her somewhere near the Broken Arm. Dany then will have to change her tactics from offensive to defensive and sail to Dragonston, which will be undermanned, because the Lannister forces will be concentrated south, and because Cersei will be expecting Dany to turn back to Essos. Yes, everything lines up. Great catch!

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    122. sebaciel,

      No. I already explained above. And ease up on the attitude, please.

      Inga,

      The Highgarden sacking isn’t in episode 1. Not even close. That makes no sense anyway. If Podeswa was filming a scene there for one of his episodes (which is the likeliest explanation), King’s Landing is the only thing that makes sense. Other reports from Trujillo point so heavily to Highgarden that it makes me think they may have filmed a few scenes there. But that’d be a bit weird too.

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    123. sebaciel:
      Luka Nieto,

      So suddenly Podeswa is doing more than E01 and E07?

      Noone said this.
      Probably in Trujillo scenes from different episodes have been filmed. Anyway, as far as we know, no Highgarden scenes in episode 1 / 7, but KL scenes in wpisode 7 (and maybe 1).

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    124. HotPinkLipstick:
      SerNoName,

      If you think the swords are spoils of war, they go to the victor or the side that obtained them, so they still don’t belong to the Starks. When you confess, or you know, lose to the other side, and they take your stuff, it’s not stealing.

      Loss of the swords is a result of either Ned’s confession or the Starks losing. Not theft. To the victor go the spoils. The Starks lost. The Lannisters got the spoils.

      If this is true, then the Starks had no right to Winterfell either. Since Ned was a confessed traitor and all and the Lannisters had given WF to the Boltons to hold. The Boltons were rightfully holding onto WF unlike the traitor Starks who then attacked them.

      Ned confessed to save Sansa’s life. Are you are saying that Brienne thinks that Ned was rightfully guilty of his crimes and therefore the Starks have no rights to their sword?

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    125. sebaciel,

      As I said, there are known exceptions, however rare, of directors filming scenes for episodes that aren’t theirs (if, for example, the schedule can’t possibly be arranged with one of the directors.) You should take that into account. Still, I don’t think that’s what’s happening. So King’s Landing it is. Could also be Highgarden, if they filmed another scene there for a mid-season episode.

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    126. HotPinkLipstick,

      You are right , to the average person Ned was a traitor and he forfeit his possessions but to those who know the truth (Jaime and Brienne included):
      a) He confessed because they threaten Sansa.(if a thief threatens someone i love to make me willingly give him my wallet and i give it to him then that person stole my wallet)
      b)” I am Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Hand of the King,… and i come before you to confess my treason in the sight of gods and men… I betrayed the faith of my king and the trust of my friend, Robert… I swore to defend and protect his children, yet before his blood was cold, I plotted to dispose and murder his son and seize the throne for myself. Let the High Septon and Baelor the Beloved and the Seven bear witness to the truth of what I say: Joffrey Baratheon is the one true heir to the Iron Throne, an by the grace of all the gods, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm” (GOT) . Ned confessing and swearing to the Seven is like me swearing to a chair , doesn’t count !
      c) his possessions are going by right to his heir which according to the Lannisters is Sansa since they declared Robb a traitor.
      d) Cersei and Jaime were the real traitors and they hurt to save their heads(sleeping with the Queen is high treason, attempt against Bran).
      Jaime knows very well that Ned’s sword was stolen along with his life and his dignity (his final words were declaring himself a traitor) .

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    127. Inga,

      I did just say the sack isn’t happening in episode one, yes. It takes place, as one would expect, not long before the ambush. Which is, even without any more information than that which has been reported, the only thing that makes sense, unless you’re suggesting that Jaime spends the whole of episodes 2 and 3 traveling from Highgarden to King’s Landing, and hasn’t arrived yet by episode 4 when the ambush happens. That would make no sense.

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    128. SerNoName: If this is true, then the Starks had no right to Winterfell either. Since Ned was a confessed traitor and all and the Lannisters had given WF to the Boltons to hold. The Boltons were rightfully holding onto WF unlike the traitor Starks who then attacked them.

      Ned confessed to save Sansa’s life.Are you are saying that Brienne thinks that Ned was rightfully guilty of his crimes and therefore the Starks have no rights to their sword?

      Yes they are two kinds of people.Those who take their enemies ancestral swords for their own ,like Tywin and those who return them to their rightful owners (dawn-sword of the morning) ,like Ned .What kind of person does Brienne claims to be?

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    129. sebaciel:
      Randyll Tarly,

      Different scenes but filmed by Podeswa as it’s he on set in that photo set with Jaime and Bronn (so still either 1 or 7)

      No. The scene with Jaime / Bronn / Ww on the castle walls obviously has been filmed by Podeswa, thus episode 1 / 7.

      Other scenes probably filmed in Trujillo (Highgarden or another location) might have been shot by any another director. There are even photos of a guy that MIGHT be a certain different director, but no 100% confirmation up to now.

      Anyway, we have proof of Podeswa filming a scene in Trujillo, and strong clues that Highgarden scenes were also filmed at Trujillo (extras, props). No contradictions at all here.

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    130. Luka Nieto: If Podeswa was filming a scene there for one of his episodes (which is the likeliest explanation), King’s Landing is the only thing that makes sense.

      Since we don’t know a lot about Episode 1 as far as the KL storyline is concerned, it would make sense if Podeswa was directing a few Jaime/Bronn scenes in KL (Red Keep)/Trujillo as Jaime and Bronn regroup from finding Cersei Queen Regent of the 7 Kingdoms. We have to set up why those two go on to sack HighGarden.

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    131. Luka Nieto:
      Inga,

      I did just say the sack isn’t happening in episode one, yes. It takes place, as one would expect, not long before the ambush. Which is, even without any more information than that which has been reported, the only thing that makes sense, unless you’re suggesting that Jaime spends the whole of episodes 2 and 3 traveling from Highgarden to King’s Landing, and hasn’t arrived yet by episode 4 when the ambush happens. That would make no sense.

      Apparently

      it takes Arya 4 episodes to reach Winterfell from The Twins, And it takes Jon 3 episodes to travel from North to South to Beyond the Wall to South again (while conducting negotiations and wight hunts and all). So anything goes…

      So now Trujillo is Highgarden, King’s Landing, Casterly Rock, what else? Winterfell too?

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    132. Kay: We have to set up why those two go on to sack HighGarden.

      Because the Lannisters and the Targaryens (and their supporters the Tyrells) are at war… Is there any need for another reason? They could also use the booty to pay off their debts to the Iron Bank, which is nice.

      sebaciel,

      That’s because they’re traveling at the speed of the plot. Arya is doing stuff while she travels. Jon will travel fast because it’s the destination that matters in his story. Jaime has NOTHING to do in-between the sack and the ambush.

      (Also, even though travel times are mostly based on pacing, there’s still some logic to it. Arya is traveling by horse at most. Jon by ship. Big difference.)

      sebaciel: So now Trujillo is Highgarden, King’s Landing, Casterly Rock, what else? Winterfell too?

      Oh, come on…. Lord, give me strength :sigh:

      Seriously, ease up on the attitude. It’s completely unwarranted. Last warning. I merely offered all the possibilities and made clear the sack happens just before the ambush; As far from episode 1 as it can get. I’m being reasonable. You should try that too, instead of being so unnecessarily provocative.

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    133. NI Belfast is their main filming studio, they can film multiple inside sets there. One is Winterfell, they are also probably filming Dragonstone there as well. Jon could be filming with either northern crew or Dany or perhaps bothA
      Raul,

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    134. So when will Emilia be back to film those ambush scenes in Spain ? I guess there is still enough time since they are still filming there for weeks.

      Nathalie is in Belfast and so it’s given that Emilia is there as well.Kit is there too.

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    135. Luka Nieto: Because the Lannisters and the Targaryens (and their supporters the Tyrells) are at war… Is there any need for another reason?

      I merely meant why Jaime throws in his lot with Cersei who has just burned the Tyrells and many others. If I were Jaime, I would take a minute to weigh the option of whether fighting Cersei’s war was morally right.

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    136. Emma,

      There are weeks of filming ahead. Anyway, if Emilia films there, it’ll be briefly, I’d bet. As far as we know, Dany will be mostly in the air throughout the battle.

      Kay,

      She’s still his sister, lover and queen. I’m sure that’ll be Jaime’s inner battle through the whole season. I don’t think It’d be a good idea to have Jaime abandon Cersei in the very first episode. His arc needs to be played out.

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    137. SerNoName,

      I don’t think you understand these characters. Jaime is not an honorless man as you portray him, at least not anymore, it’s not like “of course is not going to care about all this. He probably thinks that Widow’s wail is rightfully his”…he is nothing like that, I think you confuse Jaime with Cersei or Tywin, Jaime is different. He gave Oathkeeper to Brienne and sent her to protect Stark daughters. Nobody forced him to that. He saved Sansa’s life and probably Arya’s too.

      I don’t think Sansa or Bran is obsessed with swords. They can’t use swords. Brienne is protecting Sansa using that sword, what else would Sansa ask for, Brienne protecting her with that sword is the best thing happened to her. And Brienne decided to offer to give the sword back to Jaime, because it was given her by Jaime, and she believes that he has honor, she is also in love with him. But mainly because it was Jaime who gave her that mission, in the books she keeps thinking that “I should find Sansa, I should find Jaime’s honor, he trusted me etc.”…in the books it’s clear that Brienne is serving to Jaime in her mind and heart now, only indirectly to Starks.

      And this is not a fault or anything, she believes in Jaime. He didn’t take it back, did he? And her belief in Jaime actually changes Jaime and it’s obvious that in the end he will go to north and protect Bran and other Starks, maybe even sacrificing himself for them. It’s not important which sword it is after that point, Bran can’t use a sword, so Jaime can protect him with the sword which belonged to his father. You insist on “it should be given to Bran, it’s not his etc.”, but it doesn’t matter when Jaime saves their lives with it in the end.

      I think even if he dies protecting them, you will still keep saying “I don’t care what he did, he shouldn’t have saved them with that sword, he should have given it back and they should have all died…it would be better because Jaime is bad” etc. because obviously you dislike him, I think we had a similar discussion before.

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    138. Wow!

      Yay! Jaime has Widow’s Wail! (Please, just change the name. If Tommen already hasn’t, into “Kitten claw” or something.)

      I’ve been theoretizing that for years! For him to go North and fight the real war. Allign himself with Jon (in the books Jaime has real regrets about not being able to protect Rheagear’s children; there are also hints of “kingmaking”…), perhaps protect Bran (in S8?), the child tried to kill, that would be redemptive. Yay!

      Thanks you all for so many interesting and inspired comments. I haven’t got time to scroll back and properly quote everybody but just a couple of points.

      Sebaciel: House Dayne isn’t the only house whose words are unknown. Just off the top of my head I can think of House Tarth. You know, Brienne’s house.

      The Daynes have hardly been mentioned in the show, except Ser Arthur Dayne. In the books they’re much more “prominent”, but tantalisingly around the fringes. We even get to see the present lord, Ned Dayne, who’s a squire to Berric Dondarrion and meets Arya during her time with the Brotherhood without Banners. They even talk about Jon Snow!

      People have speculated for years about Dayne house words (GRRM apparently once said they’re “spoilery”). One frustrated fan, waiting years for the next books, quipped their words are “The Red Herrings Are Ours”. 😀

      Dragonbringer: I like your reading of the HOTU scene in the books. Dany and Drogon destroying the pulsating blue heart (heart of winter?), thereby destroying the Undying (wights?).

      I just don’t understand why you’d think Dany would (heroically) die in defeating the WWs. In the book HOTU scene she expressly walks away victorious and rejoins the living in the world outside. To face the mundane challenges of the real (non-magical) world. To learn to be a ruler. Something she’s strived to learn for years. The books give much more of her internal struggles, the mistakes, the doubts, the yearning for the house with the red door (=happiness). The bittersweet would be her taking the IT, her family legacy, but not being all that happy.

      No, if one of Dany or Jon dies in the War for the Dawn, my bet is on Jon. He already died once, there’s got to be a big, serious reason why he was brought back, but once that purpose is fulfilled… Also, once you’ve saved the world, what’s there to do afterwards? Everything’s bound to be a bit bland after that. The Frodo thing.

      I think Dany and Jon both will be essential in the War for the Dawn but one of them’s got to survive to rebuild, and Dany seems a better bet.

      Many others will also be essential in the War for the Dawn.

      Bran especially, with his powers, knowledge and maybe even some wisdom. He is going to be very important.

      Arya and Sansa will have their parts to play, maybe in surprising ways (S8 stuff maybe). They will be important, GRRM hasn’t written chapters and chapters about them (especially Arya) for nothing.

      Tyrion has repeatedly been referred to as a small man with a big shadow, tall as a king, or amidst snarling dragons. He will be important.

      Of second-tier characters, Jaime has tons of foreshadowing. The whole honour/oath/vow dilemmas. In the books, his (weirwood) dream, his true, niggling regret about not being able to protect Rhaegar’s children, hints at kingmaking, his break-up with Cersei – all, so far, omitted in the show. I have high hopes S7 finale, S8 will finally give him some character growth. He’s been kind of stalling in a holding pattern and servicing Cersei’s story since about the middle of S4. (OK, his ludicrous sojourn into Dorne in S5 showed us a “fatherly” aspect, in the books he also begins to think about his fatherhood, though mostly in reference to Tommen.)

      Samwell Tarly! He will be important for the War for the Dawn. He wasn’t sent to the Citadel for nothing. He will discover important information there, and he will be able to convince key players. He will not wield Heartsbane. C’mon! We’ve all seen how inept he is, lol! Knowing how important Valyrian steel is in the fight against the WWs, he’ll give the sword to someone who’ll wield it expertly in the war.

      Jorah! Back in S1 finale (I think) Dany gave Drogo’s bridegift weapons to her young bloodriders Rakharo, Jhogo and Aggo (arakh, bow, whip), and then told Jorah she’d give him a special sword when they get to Westeros. So… What if Sam, realising Dany and her dragons are essential for the real war, lays his Valyrian steel sword at her feet… And she promptly gives it to Jorah!

      Sorry to have written a long, rambling piece again. I’m just so excited!

      Oh, and about those “update” pictures on this article. If you want to spot Jaime, look for a white horse. In the show Jaime always rides a white horse. Go and check it. It’s always white. It’s deliberate. A joke on the “shining knight on a white charger” convention.

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    139. talvikorppi,

      The bittersweet would be her taking the IT, her family legacy, but not being all that happy.

      100% agree. In the end Dany will realize that the house with the red door was what she truly wanted. Just like Robert the IT won’t bring her happiness but she will not make the same mistakes.

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    140. konna:
      Flayed Potatoes,

      Shelacks experience . The waif may not be the best fm but she was badass as a fighter(the scene when she has no stick).Arya is quick , cunning and flexible , her abilitiesmake herthe best killer of the show (except Jaqen) but killing and fighting isn’t the same thing. For example , Arya can easily kill (murder) the hound but she doesn’t have the skills to fight him and win, at least not yet.She may be better than the average soldier -knight but not better than Jon or Sandor .

      Arya should end up seeming a lot better trained in the books by the time she returns to Westeros. That is assuming that she will. On the show they may ‘make her’ more skilled at combat than we would expect. You know, since they kind of did a CliffsNotes version of her training, but still want her to BE trained. If that portion of the leaks is correct…

      The part mentioning that Arya and Brienne spar at some point. Brienne takes it easy on her at first but quickly realizes that Arya is more than skilled enough to kill her. Brienne is supposedly very good with a sword, even if Gwendoline makes her look a bit slow, relying on her size and aggression more to overpower foes that are trying to fight in the same fashion. Still, her lumbering size against a quick-footed Arya fighting with techniques she’s not accustom to could be equated to the Mountain vs Oberyn a bit. It probably wouldn’t take much to KO Arya, but you gotta connect first.

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    141. SerNoName,

      As to Ice -> Oathbreaker & Widow’s Wail.

      HotPinkLipstick had a point. Ned confessed his treason so all was forfeit, even Ice.

      Of course it’s not fair or right. War isn’t. That’s kind of the point.

      But Brienne has wielded Oathkeeper honourably and according to her vow to Lady Catelyn. (BTW, when do vows stop? After the death of the vowee? Never? This is what Jaime’s and Brienne’s stories are about.)

      Many Stark fans want Ice to be reforged into one huge sword again. (Who would know how and have the skill, anyway? Gendry?) Ice was an unwieldy ceremonial sword. In the light of the war to come, it’s better to have two rather than one Valyrian steel swords.

      Maybe after the war? Though I still think Brienne should be allowed (by the Starks) to keep hers. Jaime should give his back, I agree. I have a hunch he will. He’s got form, on giving away priceless Valyrian steel swords, for the sake of honour. I just don’t know when. Before the real war? During it? After it?

      As to Jaime’s fighting prowess, he’s been practicing left-handed swordfighting since early S4. It’s fair to assume he’s learned something by S7. He’ll never be as good as he was with his right hand (one of the very, very best in all the Seven Kingdoms ever, even Barristan Selmy admitted it), but it’s not out of the realms of possibility that he becomes quite good with his left hand.

      Exhibit A: Qhorin Halfhand. The NW’s legendary swordsman, who, after losing half of his right hand, trained hard and became even better with his left hand.

      Exhibit B: Swordfighting isn’t only about a hand or an arm. It’s also about how you move your whole body, and Jaime, as a former excellent swordfighter, hasn’t lost his movement and coordination. He just has to get used to different movements. He’ll never be as good as he was but he could be fairly good. Think of it this way: an excellent right-handed tennis player can, with practice, become a good left-handed tennis player, but a left-hander who’s never played tennis can’t become a good left-handed tennis player. Because it’s not only the hand/arm but also movement and reading your opponent’s movements and their play. Jaime still has all that.

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    142. Take off the Stark-colored glasses. No one but a few Stark-loyalist fans gives a crap about whether Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail end up in Stark hands, and those Stark-loyalist fans certainly care more than the Stark characters as they are written.

      If the Starks want to go to war with the Lannisters to have the swords returned, go for it. That’s what they did with Winterfell. And by the way, a castle and lands are totally different from a mobile possession, like say a pair of shoes, that can be used by many and moved around.

      But the Lannisters have no moral obligation to return anything to the Starks. Jaime’s vow was to return the Stark girls to their mother, not return Ice to the Starks.

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    143. innocence:
      SerNoName,

      I don’t think you understand these characters.

      Ah! Here comes the standard critique that people who have different opinions about characters don’t know how to read the books properly or fail to understand characters!

      Jaime has shit for honor. All he has done thus far is commit adultery, try to kill little children, generate some bastard spawn, be responsible for a war that killed thousands and continue to destroy other houses to keep his bastard spawn and now sister-lover on the throne. Just because he saved Brienne from a bear that one time and send her off with Ned’s stolen sword to rescue Sansa does not mean that he is all about honor now.

      innocence:
      SerNoName,

      I don’t think Sansa or Bran is obsessed with swords. They can’t use swords. Brienne is protecting Sansa using that sword, what else would Sansa ask for, Brienne protecting her with that sword is the best thing happened to her. And Brienne decided to offer to give the sword back to Jaime, because it was given her by Jaime, and she believes that he has honor, she is also in love with him. But mainly because it was Jaime who gave her that mission, in the books she keeps thinking that “I should find Sansa, I should find Jaime’s honor, he trusted me etc.”…in the books it’s clear that Brienne is serving to Jaime in her mind and heart now, only indirectly to Starks.

      The ableism in this post hurts my soul. So Bran not being able to use a sword means that he gives up all rights to it?

      As the rightful heir to WF and as Ned’s oldest surviving legitimate son, the Stark ancestral swords belong to Bran. Not to Sansa, not to Arya, not to Jon. Bran gets to decide who to give it to. Not Brienne and not Jaime. If Brienne is as honorable as she proclaims and if Bran gets to WF next season, we should get a scene where Brienne informs him about her sword and lets him decide if she can keep it. If she can offer it back to Jaime of all people, she should be able to do the same for Bran.

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    144. Inga,

      Just finished reading about The Battle of Lake Trasimene. I’m so impressed with your knowledge of history!

      BTW, I believe that in the show, the first line of Ser Arthur Dayne’s biography in the “White Book”/”Book of Brothers” states that his father was named Beric. As for a Targaryen-Dayne marriage, Maester Aemon/Aegon V’s mother was said to be Dyanna Dayne, who married Maekar Targaryen.

      According to GRRM at a 1999 Event Horizon “Flashpoint” Chat, Ashara’s violet eyes don’t mean she has Targaryen blood: “Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she’s not of Valyrian descent (that I know).”

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    145. HotPinkLipstick,

      Who said anything about war? I only said the swords should be returned to Ned’s family as gesture of good will and honor (like Ned did with dawn). It’s not about the steel or it’s value in gold. Jorah betrayed his family , sold everything but he left longclaw behind. Jon gave the sword to Sam when he went to negotiate with Mance because he promised Jeor he will never lose it. One of Robb’s terms was the return of Ice and in the books Tyrion thinks he should have sent it to the Starks . Arya kept needle for the same reasons. Their value is symbolic .To Tywin ice is an expensive sword made of valyrian steel.To their Starks is their father’s sword. I have a ring that belonged to my late grandmother, it isn’t of great value but it’s the most valuable thing in the world for me because it belonged to her . I never said Jaime or Brienne are bad people (only Tywin) , i never said the Starks should go to war .I only said why , in my opinion (which i have every right to write) ice should be returned to house Stark . Just because i don’t believe Jaime isn’t as honorable as Ned doesn’t mean he is at all honorable. You disagree with me , that’s great !it makes the discussion more interesting but i wasn’t rude in my comments or sarcastic .I respected your opinion(about ice) , i don’t share the same opinion and i expressed why .

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    146. Shireen Baratheon was reading the Dance of the Dragons to Davos. Says Shireen “Brothers fought brothers, dragons fought dragons. By the time it was over, thousands were dead. And it was a disaster for the Targaryens as well. They never truly recovered.” – this is major foreshadowing that when the NK (most likely a Stark) will fight Jon Snow (Stark-Targ) and perhaps Dany (if she doesn’t die in childbirth) .. the living will never truly recover.

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    147. Marlana,

      Dawn (the sword) should figure in the fight with the WW since it is the “fight for summer, i.e. the fight for dawn” since during the long winter the sun never shows.

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    148. konna,

      I wasn’t responding to you. I was responding to SerNoName and his giant Stark blindspot that prevents him from analyzing rationally.

      I’m got your opinion, understood it, and chose not to respond.

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    149. konna,

      I think if Dany got the choice she would pick having a family over the IT it’s all she’s ever wanted but she believes she can never have that but if she falls pregnant before the end of the WW war she might choose another path but make sure someone is on the IT who can continue her beliefs about breaking the wheel and making the common people more equal.

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    150. talvikorppi,

      She believes she will be seeing house with red door once dany gets to westeros and in KL ..
      At the end she will realise that she will never get to see the house with red door and she needs to destroy the heart of winter ..so in the process she may die..it may happen in a way that drogon die but she survives..
      Or both survive

      Its just I think one of dany and jon will be dead and I think dany dying has more chance because Jon has more foreshadowings becoming King in the end ..
      If I had my way I would have both survive and help westeros rebuild after the war..because they both had been given the learning for this purpose..
      And if she lives dany after being played the role of mother and destroyer and protector she will be left to play the role of builder ..

      I dont think show did those things with jorah and bloodriders .but yes in the books she gives drogo’s weapons to his bloodriders and promises jorah a great sword which will be dragonforged ..it looks likes its going to be tarly sword but iam not sure yet
      Looking forward to what it will be

      konna,

      The thing is dany already knows she wants the house with red door …its one of the reasons she is looking forward to go to westeros and KL ..

      Kingship or queenship should never be easy ..that’s why Aegon made the IT in the first place to remind those who sit on it ..

      Difference between robert and dany is duty …robert never did his duty as king .. dany still did the duty and knows its her duty to serve the people..she held more courts and attended it in her reign in meereen ( which should be only months ) compared to robert in his fourteen years of being King .. She already knows conquering and ruling both are different and not same .

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    151. Marlana,

      It would be interesting but who will wield it? Not Jon as we know. Dany? Does she know how to fight wih a sword and she got what I consider Lightbringer already.

      Mel,

      You believe she will die giving birth to a child?

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    152. HotPinkLipstick:
      konna,

      I wasn’t responding to you. I was responding to SerNoName and his giant Stark blindspot that prevents him from analyzing rationally.

      Right, because your analysis is so unbiased and rational and all that!!

      Take off your Lannister colored glasses. No one but a few Jaime apologists keep going on about how all that loot the Lannisters stole from the houses they defeated using deceit and betrayal belongs to the Lannisters.

      I don’t expect Jaime to return anything to the Starks seeing as he is continuing his thieving ways next season by looting Highgarden. I would have cheered if Dany had roasted Jaime during the ambush of his stolen loot caravan, but it looks like Bronn gets in way unfortunately.

      I was talking more about Brienne who is a far better human being than Jaime. I expect more from her. If she is supporting the Starks, she needs to mention to Bran that her sword was Ned’s and let him decide who it goes to.

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    153. It’s almost too easy to give Arya Petyr’s Valyrian steel dagger (he might even have it with him). I think she’s going to get a much more formidable weapon instead. In S2 Ep 5 she reminds Lord Tywin that Aegon I conquered Westeros with the help of his sister/wives, Rhaenys and Visenya Targaryen and their dragons. Eyes aglow (and with eerie music on the soundtrack), Arya adds that Visenya was a great warrior and had a Valyrian steel sword, Dark Sister. Well, cast-wise, Arya IS the Dark Sister. According to Wiki of Ice & Fire, Dark Sister was forged for a woman, light and thin (like Needle), but Valyrian steel. Visenya was also an impressive leader and even died peacefully in her 70s–no wonder Arya idolised her. If D&D have any sense, they’ll contrive a way to pay off their own foreshadowing and get this storied blade into the hand of the (No) One who seems destined to wield it. If rumour holds true and Arya and Brienne do spar, it’s probably because Arya has a new weapon and needs to practice a new way of fighting for the Wars to Come.

      Speaking of sparring, Jaime struggled when fighting left-handed with Bronn. But he was using conventional weight and length swords. Widow’s Wail is smaller and Valyrian Steel so lighter, which might help Jaime compensate for the reduced dexterity and strength of his left hand. So Jaime seems equally destined to get Widow’s Wail. And much as I hate to admit it, he probably deserves it. Not only did he give Brienne Oathkeeper but he let her keep it to protect the Stark girls. Jaime will probably continue his redemption arc and die fighting alongside Brienne. Afterwards, hopefully Gendry will re-forge Ice from their two swords, but it will now have a romantic legend attached to it.

      All of which makes me recoil in horror at Violator’s (appropriate name) positing the old Nissa Nissa theory: “I wonder whether Dany gives her life for the kingdom in the end by thrusting Jon’s sword into her own body? It seems that it required a sacrifice of a loving wife to bring Lightbringer to life. It would be a fitting sacrifice if a major character had to give their life to do so again.”

      I utterly disagree. We’ve followed major characters for six years already, and none of them should be erased from the story for some stupid sacrifice. Why is “a loving wife” fitting? Surely a loving husband would do as well? Just because according to the books the original Azor Ahai did it is no reason to ask one of the many powerful female characters on the show to martyr themselves for some man’s glory. Particularly Dany, who may be the/a Prince that was Promised and deserves far better than that. They all have lives to live and fights to fight. The book sacrifice is fortunately never mentioned on the show; nor should it be in this enlightened age when the very idea is barbaric. D&D would be doing fans a serious disservice if they utilised this hoary old narrative trope. There is one exception, but not a loving wife: Melisandre. She has professionally sacrificed several lives to attain the ascendance of Azor Ahai. Since she alone believes in and practices sacrifice, she might willingly die, but out of priniciple, not sappy love.

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    154. talvikorppi,

      Yeah, we do not know the words of House Tarth as well. Interestingly, the Lords of Tarth style themselves “the Evenstar” and according to twoiaf, this title goes back to the dawn of days. “The Evenstar” and “the Sword of the Morning”, it’s curious. It’s possible both houses have a connection to the first battle for dawn.

      I have always thought that either one of Jon or Dany would die in the final battle as well, even though my guess had been that Jon would be the one to die and Dany would be the queen.

      Leaks:

      Now I am not so sure though. It looks like so many things will be left unresolved by the end of S7. Cersei is still on the IT and the Wall has already fallen. Jon doesn’t even know yet that he is a Targaryen, plus it is revealed that he is a legitimate Targ with a real claim to the IT. So based on this, it seems to me that the political game will continue even after the WWs are defeated. If Jon was to die in the battle against the WWs, what would be the point of now revealing that he is the true heir. And there is no way that Dany would die before Cersei right? Because it now looks like even Cersei might survive the WWs.

      So I wouldn’t be surprised if both Dany and Jon live beyond the fight against the WWs. I think Jaime has a chance to survive as well, since I do believe he will be the one to strangle Cersei to death (Valonqar).But now that he has abandoned her to go North, it seems likely that it can only happen after the fighting is done. However, he might still die at the very end.

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    155. SerNoName: Right,because your analysis is so unbiased and rational and all that!!

      Take off your Lannister colored glasses. No one but a few Jaime apologists keep going on about how all that loot the Lannisters stole from the houses they defeated using deceit and betrayal belongs to the Lannisters.

      I don’t expect Jaime to return anything to the Starks seeing as he is continuing his thieving ways next season by looting Highgarden. I would have cheered if Dany had roasted Jaime during the ambush of his stolen loot caravan, but it looks like Bronn gets in way unfortunately.

      I was talking more about Brienne who is a far better human being than Jaime. I expect more from her. If she is supporting the Starks, she needs to mention to Bran that her sword was Ned’s and let him decide who it goes to.

      Do you actually watch the series, or read the books?
      You know who gave Brienne a sword to protect Sansa and Arya? Jaime! You know who would have been dead if Jaime didn’t do that? Sansa and Theon. With Sansa and Theon dead, she would never have gone to Jon and ask Winterfell back. LF would never helped Jon..so Ramsay would still have Winterfell.

      So be a nice fanboy and thank Ser Jaime Lannister for your favs life and home.
      If he took this sword it’s because he has a reason, if it was just to take Ned’s sword he would keep the big fancy his daddy gave him.House Stark would have been dead and everyone happy.

      “Theiving” is your opinion. Tarly follow him, so maybe the new Lords of Reach decided to supply him with food for the population, of course you would know that Jaime is the only book character that cares about the food in the books.
      Of course you would also knew that he gave his sword to protect the Starks… but then again i am 100% sure you never read any of his chapters and watched or his scenes.
      “Oh It’s that criple Jaime Lannister, i suddenly can’t read or see or hear and i hate him, so who gives a fuck that he have saved most of the people in that story”

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    156. SerNoName,

      All of what you said is canonically wrong. I can’t discuss anything with someone who didn’t understand something at all but refuses to understand or even find a middle ground when people try to explain it because he is simply obsessed with an idea and can’t look at it from any other point of view under any circumstances.

      I already knew this from another discussion, and already explained your attitude in my comment above: “you will still keep saying “I don’t care what he did, he shouldn’t have saved them with that sword, he should have given it back and they should have all died…it would be better because Jaime is bad”…of course you ignore these parts because it’s true and you should accept that you are simply a “hater” to respond to those.

      Jaime HAS honor. This is the whole point of his story. If you didn’t understand this, yes, you didn’t understand these characters. You can’t change this fact just by saying that “oh, here comes ‘you didn’t understand’ people”…Those people may be right, you know. Maybe there is a reason why you keep hearing that sentence.

      Jaime never committed adultery, Cersei did. He did generate some bastard spawn, but he offered Cersei to marry many times, Cersei rejected it.He is not responsible for any war, all Lannisters and all Starks were responsible for that war. He did try to kill a child (and will pay for it) but not to save “some bastards”, to save the woman he loves and his children. And he won’t try to keep Cersei on the throne anymore, he will switch sides when he sees her real face, he loved her and he did all those things for her because he had believed in her…he gets disillusioned about her later, these don’t make a person bad, can only make him foolish. “Just because he saved Brienne from a bear that one time”…he lost his hand trying to save Brienne from rapers. Then he jumped into the bear pit with one hand and no weapon, almost ready to die. “..and send her off with Ned’s stolen sword to rescue Sansa”…he didn’t steal that sword. Ned lost his sword to Lannisters, Tywin divided it into two and gave one to Jaime. And he never used it, because he thought he wasn’t worthy of it anymore…You are completely blind if you can’t see depth and honor in these.

      You can see how you interpret things the way they fit to your extremely biased and prejudiced ideas. All of you said are simply wrong, you just present the facts the way that could support your negative feelings. You ignore all the parts that contradict you, you ignore the intention of the writer and narrative.

      You keep insisting on that pointless “Swords are Bran’s” idea. People didn’t even know that Bran was alive, he wasn’t around for years. He is not the Lord of WF, he is three eyed raven now who doesn’t even care about swords, Sansa is the Lady of WF.

      And you mention Brienne like she is only a servant to Starks, nothing more. You don’t care about their romance, you ignore the poetic elements in “two knights/warriors carrying a half of one sword to protect the sword’s original owner”, instead of seeing the beauty in this narrative, you just go like “nope, fuck love, fuck lovers, kill Jaime, just give the sword back to me…I mean, to Bran, to Bran”.

      You are a hater. Your argument has zero basis, except your irrational hate for certain characters (it’s unbelievable that you are so aggressive that when discussing with people about their favourite characters, you say things like “I wished he would die there, I’m sorry that he didn’t die”).

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    157. Alvaricomg,

      I read that theory on reddit and I liked it, I wish that was the case but the leaker precisely said that Cersei doesn’t die, she wakes up in the bed and starts screaming.

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    158. Alvaricomg,

      It doesn’t exactly fit either, the prophecy doesn’t say “…will put his arms around your neck”, it says “about your pale white throat”. If we connect that part of the prophecy with a child (which makes sense because Maggy mentioned the Valonqar when she answered to Cersei’s question about children), I think it’s more likely that the Valonqar is not the baby but someone who kills the baby. I had read this theory on reddit, which said that the little brother may kill her last child, not her, by “choking the life out of her”.

      Tyrion can kill the baby by making Cersei drink “moon tea”, a herbal tea which is used to abort pregnancies. That way it’s also connected to her “throat”, because she drinks it. And the leaker had said that Tyrion would demand a private meeting with Cersei after the Dragonpit meeting, so he can somehow make her drink it.

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    159. Flayed Potatoes:
      talvikorppi,

      Once you save the world you help rebuild it. You’ve said Dany can do it, so why can’t Jon do as well?

      I have to say, Jon rebuilding the world would fit in with two things:

      1) It would make Thorne’s last words prophetic; Jon is forced to spend the rest of his life fighting for the rights of others and not knowing any peace.

      2) Ned may not be Jon’s biological father, but the two characters are very similar and the show has deliberately highlighted – particularly in season six – the links between the two. Jon rebuilding the world would reflect Ned’s experience after Robert’s Rebellion and his bittersweet ending could be that – like Ned – he survives, but so much of what he fought for is lost and he has to try and live a life he never thought he would.

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    160. Geralt of Rivia,

      No I don’t think Dany will die, her choosing to have a family instead of being a Queen doesn’t necessarily mean she’s gonna die but either all her dragons will or she’ll let them fly free to Old Valyria in the end.

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    161. Alba Stark,

      Flayed Potatoes,

      Technically both Dany and Jon can, It doesn’t necessarily have to be one over the other or only them, all the survivors can help rebuilt and considering how big Westeros is, they are gonna need a lot of good decent people over the continent. Jon and Dany might not want to be the ones in charge of rebuilding the world, Martin could take a page from LOTR aka Frodo and they are tired of fighting and just want to rest.
      talvikorppi,

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    162. Mel,

      I agree that Jon is somehow like Frodo. His best friend is called Sam. He is the one who will beat the Night King, just as Frodo killed Sauron by destroying the ring. So Jon can get that sort of a bittersweet ending like Frodo. But he is also like Aragorn, because he is a secret heir to the throne, and he is a also a warrior and a leader like Aragorn. But Jon and Daenerys didn’t have a slow burning love story like Aragorn and Arwen…it could be like that if GRRM kept his original idea of making Jon and Arya secretly in love and star-crossed lovers…so maybe GRRM’s original thought was to make Jon the king in the end like Aragorn and make him marry Arya when he learns that they are not siblings. Perhaps he later mixed Frodo and Aragorn, and will give Jon a bittersweet ending instead of a happy one like in LOTR.

      But I don’t know how Daenerys fits to that analogy.

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    163. Mel:
      Alba Stark,

      Flayed Potatoes,

      Technically both Dany and Jon can, It doesn’t necessarily have to be one over the other or only them,all the survivors can help rebuilt and considering how big Westeros is, they are gonna need a lot of good decent people over the continent. Jon and Dany might not want to be the ones in charge of rebuilding the world, Martin could take a page from LOTR aka Frodo and they are tired of fighting and just want to rest.
      talvikorppi,

      Absolutely Daenerys could be involved in the rebuilding as much as Jon – I did not mean that she could not – I only meant to show how having a role in rebuilding the world would fit in with Jon’s arc.

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    164. Luka Nieto,

      Sorry, Luka, for being irksome once again, but if Highgarden is excluded, can the scene with Jaime and Bronn on the battlements filmed by J. Podeswa be happening in Dorne (Sunspear, for instance)? The In Production Trailer showed us the map with the Lannisters in Dorne, and this situation should occur pretty early in the season. I mean, if the Sands Snakes (or at least some of them) are on board of Yaras ship at the moment of the naval battle, it’s legit to assume that they will flee from Sunspear in the first episode. I also got an impression that Ellaria and her daughter may become Euron’s captives, and though that impression might be wrong, all in all there are enough hints that something is going to be happening in Dorne on the eve of Dany’s arrival. And that would be necessary plot-wise too, because, despite of all shortcommings, Dorne is still one of the most appropriate places for Dany’s landing.
      It was a big surprise to me that none the Spanish castles would serve as Sunspear, and I assumed that the showrunners decided to film everything in the studio, but with J. Podeswa on the battlements with Jaime and Bronn..?
      After all the Jaime doesn’t need to have multiply scenes in KL in Ep 1; all he has to do is to confront Cersei to resolve the conflict set in 610 (leak alert:

      IMO Cersei will simply tell Jaime that she is pregnant, and Jaime’s rage will fade away: it might even be a cold opening of Ep 1

      ). Immediately after that Jaime will have to start working on repelling the upcoming Dany’s attack, and Dorne looks like the most appropriate target No.1, especially, if Euron offers Cersei his services.

      So, what do you think? Wrong guess once again? Thank you in advance for the answer.

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    165. innocence,

      Bran is like Frodo ,Jon is more like Aragorn. Jojen and the three-eyed raven have warned him many times not to get lost in Summer’s skin or his visions(Frodo was tempted to wear the ring , it was a burden to him).Bran is not the warrior of the story(Jon) ,he is the “ring bearer” , ring=the sight. Bran is also Harry Poter , i have a feeling the mark the Night’s king gave him works both ways. Dany may be Gandalf , “The Dragons are coming!”

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    166. I’m still baffled by what’s going on with the Tarlys in all this: Randyll Tarly fought *for* the Targaryens in Robert’s rebellion, why side with the Lannisters now?

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    167. The Dragon Demands:
      I’m still baffled by what’s going on with the Tarlys in all this:Randyll Tarly fought *for* the Targaryens in Robert’s rebellion, why side with the Lannisters now?

      Power, gold, appointment as Lord of Highgarden and Warden of the South… His past actions were in following his allegiance to House Tyrell as opposed to individually deciding to fight for Targaryens. House Tyrell is weak now on the show without a proper leader. His option could be fight with the Lannisters and be rewarded or die. Even where it’s at in the books he’s been given a position of more importance by Kevan on Tommen’s council than he ever had from Mace. I’d written more about this last week, but Randyll was on the top of my list of possible recruits to Cersei’s side. He’s sexist and racist so while he may have issue with Cersei, to him she probably seems like a better option than supporting a young girl he knows nothing about that’s bringing tens of thousands of foreign barbarian warriors into his country. Wildlings probably seem mild in comparison.

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    168. Konna,
      avgar,

      That’s a good idea, Bran may be partially Frodo too, although he is not the main character like Frodo. But I think Tyrion is also like Gandalf, considering that Tyrion-Jon-Daenerys are the characters with most POV chapters…he is wise, intelligent and is also involved with dragons; but most importantly Cersei seems like Saruman, and Tyrion brings the downfall of Cersei (they are archenemies) like Gandalf did to Saruman.

      Oh, and this could make Jaime partially Gríma Wormtongue, in the books he is a character who was tricked by Saruman and became his most loyal servant, and in the end he killed Saruman. But Jaime is not pure evil and pathetic like Wormtongue who didn’t have a redemption arc or a love story, so he was probably mixed with Boromir or maybe with Legolas…Brienne can be Gimli, who was a honorable and strong warrior, underestimated by others. Legolas and Gimli didn’t like each other at first but then they became best friends and left the middle earth together, it would be a love story if they were gay, they would be like Beauty and the Beast too.

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    169. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      Regarding all that Nisa-Nisa sacrifice.

      First of all, in the show Longclaw has already proved to be efficient against the WW, so it doesn’t need any more sacrifices. Period.
      However, my question since Hardhome has always been what have made it efficient: Valyrian steel or something else. If you remember Jon used Longclaw to kill Qhorin Halfhand, and that was an act of sacrifice: Qhorin faked the conflict to help Jon infiltrate into the Wildling camp and died whispering “I am a watcher on the Wall”; hence, he gave his soul to Longclaw figuratively or even literary (it’s a magical world after all).
      As for Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail, we haven’t seen them being used to kill anyone willing to die for a higher purpose; however, the Ice was used to behead Ned, and Ned also whispered something in his last moments. If we think about Ned, he basically sacrificed himself (and his personal honor) to save lives of his daughters who were hold hostages to his knowledge. Hence, his death was also an act of sacrifice and his soul could have passed into the Ice, and form the Ice into the Oathkeeper and the Widow’s Wail.
      There is a question about the Littlefinger’s dagger: it wasn’t used to kill anyone willing (at least so far), but it was also sanctified by Cat’s blood, when she hold the blade with her bare hands in that desperate attempt to save Bran from the murderer, so, it might carry a part of her soul too.
      Dawn was used to kill Arthur Dayne, who was also sort of a willing sacrifice: he chose to die doing his duty instead of fleeing. So, potentially it may work against the WW too.
      Heartsbane is a question, but it’s end-game may be to serve experiments leading to rediscovery of the Valyrian steel technology, rather than being used for an actual fight. Or the sacrifice is yet to come (I hope it won’t be Sam, though I can fully imagine him asking friends to kill him, if he becomes a liability).

      All in all, the power of the blood of a willing sacrifice is a very old archetype, but the archetype also implies that the sacrifice has to happen naturally, not as some kind of trade with a guarantee of success. I wouldn’t be surprised, if it turns out that GRRM decided to repeat it.

      And BTW why everyone thinks that Nisa-Nisa was young and beautiful: where was that written?

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    170. avgar,

      Why would you wait this long to shit-post, only to flop so hard at it? If you hadn’t been such a slacker this time, you could have derailed this thread after the third comment or so, but instead we’re stuck with at least 50% of the discussion being on topic followed by a third-rate trolling attempt at best. It’s times like this that I seriously doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.

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    171. Alvaricomg,

      It depends. If Jon is Aragorn, he didn’t have a long star-crossed love story, so Arwen could be Sansa, Arya or Daenerys, but in the original draft it was Arya…maybe Daenerys was Eowyn. If Daenerys is Aragorn, she also didn’t have a slow burning love story, except if you believe that she deep down loved Jorah or something. But obviously Jon is not Arwen.

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    172. innocence,

      Interesting theory: could you post a reddit link? I would like to read it thoroughly.

      Leak speculation:

      If this theory is true, I don’t think it will be Tyrion who will give Cersei the Moon Tea: Tyrion, on the contrary, would be wishing she could give birth, because a child would be the only thing, that could potentially make Cersei join the fight against the WW. However, Euron is exactly the opposite: he would want to marry Cersei to get the throne, but Jaime’s child would be an obstacle, so if he learns about her pregnancy, he would try to make he to get rid of the baby. And as for WW, they can’t swim, and Euron might also think/know that the could be satisfied with child sacrifices etc. So, yes: he would be a very appropriate candidate.

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    173. Jenny,

      I think it’s perfect when you think about it. ..I’m sure catelyn stark and lady stoneheart are both wailing from either the seven heavens or hells if he’s the that will be protecting bran, but things usually come full circle! I love foreshadowing lol

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    174. Clob,

      Yes, still stuck on that map. And say whatever you like, now we have proof that the In Production Trailer contains hints. Take for instance, that shot with the Lannister banner unfolding over the big box labeled as “Oleena’s Carriage”: I misinterpreted it a bit, but still it was a hint that the Lannisters will beat her, and now we see Lannister banners being raised over the battlements of Highgarden.

      And by the way, I have finally recognized two weird shields without sigils hanging on the wall right below the Stark shield, one both sides of the Baratheon shield. Those were the shields used by Beric and Sandor in Kissed by Fire and we know that those two are going North and will be fighting side by side with Jon

      in Ep 6

      and later (at least Sandor was confirmed to appear in the Dragonpit and there was some redhair actor no-one recognized, but that could be a re-casted Beric Dondarion).

      I don’t demand you to believe, but proofs are coming. There are hints: after all every trailer is supposed to give hints, because giving hints is the purpose of every trailer. So, hints may be misunderstood and misinterpreted, but denying their very existence is not the wisest thing to do – at least in my opinion.

      You may have a different opinion, and that’s OK. It’s like arguing about some 16th century chronicle telling about some 13th century events: some historians would dismiss it as an unreliable source, others would argue that an author might have had an access to some original sources and, if his statements line up with more reliable sources and/or other materials, they should be taken into consideration. But some of such scientific debates continue since the 19th century and will hardly ever be resolved. We are lucky, because we will get a full revelation in less than a year, and I think it will be interesting to make the analysis of the trailer after the season airs.

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    175. LEAK DISCUSSION

      the leak literally says “Jon needs to provide proof that the Undead are real. So he goes beyond the Wall with the Hound,Beric,Thoros and Tormund to capture one. They succeed but Beric and Viserion die in the process. They bring the undead to KL(they have a temporary truce with the Lannisters) and they show him to Cersei at the Dragonpit. She loses her shit. She agrees to unite their armies against the WW.But at the last moment,she betrays them and doesn’t send troops,so that the WW will thin out their forces. Jaime is mad and leaves her. He rides North to join the armies” and that “Cersei is pregnant”.

      IT DOESN’T SAY SHE WILL SURVIVE THE MISCARRIAGE

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    176. Alvaricomg,

      If you think someone like Cersei is going down in such an uneventful way (especially after her actress got a huge paycheck for both season 7 and 8), then have I got a bridge to sell you.

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    177. Inga,
      Well, I never said that production trailer didn’t have some things we could glean such as the shields, carriage, sigils and such. I never even doubted that the map and the moveable pogs will be used. I still don’t think those pogs are necessarily in exact location as they’re making them that far in advance of filming, but they’ll be in the area I reckon. My current opinion is that Euron’s fleet could very well be in the Sea of Dorne when it encounters Yara/Theon/Sand Snakes. What I didn’t agree with was you repeatedly mentioning that one second shot as proof or support for the theory that you had produced, which now appears to be scratched.

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    178. avgar,

      Tyrion and Gandalf and Jon as Sam? Funny but wrong. Jon got pieces of Aragorn (ranger far in the North, lost prince), Frodo (bearing scars that will never heal) and Gandalf (being resurrected). Bran is like Frodo.

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    179. OK, folks STOP with the LotR and SoI&F comparisons! They are two utterly different types of stories. LotR is a purely plot-driven story. It has no protagonists, and none of the story comes from how characters evolve. (And, no, Tolkien would not be offended by that: Tolkien loathed modern character-driven stories, and he would have taken offense at someone trying to interpret Frodo or Sam as a protagonist.) SoI&F is a modern character-driven story, where the story comes from how the primary protagonists evolve. Bran has no Frodo-like qualities: Bran’s role is to evolve from the silly little kid who believed in Knights and Monsters into a person who understands that the “good guys” were never that good and that the “evil” actually has some legitimate gripes with the “good.” Jon is not Aragorn: Aragorn knew for most of his life that he was supposed to be King of Gondor and Andor, and that he was completely qualified to do so because his great to the umpteenth grandfathers did so. Aragorn never had any questions as to whether what he was doing was morally right or wrong: like Stannis, he was certain that all he was attempting was “right.”

      If you want to find comparisons for these characters, then you will do a better job using Tolstoy than Tolkien! Indeed, many strong parallels can be found between SoI&F characters and characters in Anna Karenina. That should not be surprising, as Anna Karenina is considered the progenitor of the sort of stories that include SoI&F.

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    180. Wimsey,

      Well that’s your opinion. We can see similarites that you don’t see and we are free to compare, nobody has to stop comparing just because you don’t see it.

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    181. Clob,

      You got your satisfaction, didn’t you?

      As for the location of the naval battle, I also think that, based on what we know so far, it may happen in the Sea of Dorne and/or nearby. But Jaime and/or Euron have to take Dorne first.

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    182. Inga: But Jaime and/or Euron have to take Dorne first.

      That might actually be some Dorne scenes I’d want to see… I suppose most of that would/will happen off camera though. 🙁

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    183. Wimsey:
      Bran’s role is to evolve from the silly little kid who believed in Knights and Monsters into a person who understands that the “good guys” were never that good and that the “evil” actually has some legitimate gripes with the “good.”

      What legitimate gripes does the murder machine Night King have?

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    184. Wimsey,

      I see, you love Russian classics? I wonder do you read translated versions or the originals?
      But one way or another, Anna Karenina has absolutely no parallels with ASOIAF. If you want a parallel there’s only one: “War and Piece”. Sad, that BBC were got totally off with its series. I still remember the old Soviet masterpiece of 1965-1967, so, trying to watch that crap was really painful (BTW, you can find it online legally and for free, if you are interested). However, I would say that GOT is still closer to the LOTR (movies), than to the “War and Peace”.

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    185. Sean C.,

      Well, the Seven Kingdoms is a realm build by conquest upon conquest, so what does it matter who is the next conqueror? The Night King is entitled to claim it ius belli just like Dany, or Cersey, or anyone else? Denying the WW equal rights in this matter would be outrageously RACIST, right?

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    186. innocence,

      The assertion that all Lannister and Stark soldiers were responsible for the war is bunk. That’s like saying that since I fought in Iraq I was responsible for the war. A few people are responsible for the civil war in Westeros. Jamie may not be high on that list but he bears some responsibility. He did father the Bastards and tried to sit them on the Iron Throne. Jamie has this nice retribution thing working but he isn’t there and won’t be until he makes amend to Bran for trying to kill him at the very least.

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    187. George has long admitted inspiration from and some indebtedness to LOTR. They’re both fantasies set in vaguely English mediaeval worlds, so inevitably they have some elements in common. Both address hero journeys and have major heroes, helpers, lesser protagonists, love interests, multi-levels of villains, magic, etc too. Character for character they don’t match up much (Boromir is a much better person than Littlefinger), but IMO the moral ambiguity and unpredictability plus the realism, historicity, and hyper-expansive world-building set GRRM’s work apart. One other major difference is children and females. There are NO children in LOTR and next to no females, whereas all of the ASOIAF Big 6 but Tyrion would be considered children by 21st century readers. In fact, IMO treatment of children is an underlying theme of the story. But overall, I still think the greatest comparison is to late mediaeval English history plus fantasy.

      Inga, thank you for amply making the point about informal/natural sanctification of various Valyrian steel weapons and especially about the dispensability of the archaic Nissa Nissa trope.

      About Dark Sister. If 1) that sword does somehow come to Arya AND 2) Littlefinger’s Valyrian dagger is available, I nominate Lyanna Mormont as its next owner…provided she uses it against the Others. She’s sort of earned it, but also her House lost its own Valyrian steel weapon and in a just world would be compensated. But it must be used.

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    188. There’s a LOT of talk here about how a. Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail should be reforged into Ice, and b. neither Brienne or Jaime should wield them because both swords were stolen from the Starks. Firstly, Ice was essentially useless in battle. It was a ceremonial weapon that was only really brought out for special occasions and executions because of its size. Note Ned didn’t take it with him when he went to find Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. Even if he had, we wouldn’t have him placing Dawn at the head of his sister’s bed, and Jon being ‘born under a bleeding star’. Things happen for a reason, especially when writers are constructing a narrative, which brings me onto my second point in relation to Brienne and Jaime. You know, perhaps it’s imperative these two wield these swords for the greater good. Having handed The Hound his arse to him when they fought, Brienne has already proven her worthiness as a fighter and consequently almost secured her place as a warrior in the big battle. I also fully believe that whilst Jaime is no longer at full strength as a swordsman, having a smaller, lighter, one-handed weapon like Widow’s Wail will help him improve his skills; even if I suspect his strategical talents as a battle commander are his real asset for the war against the WW. He’s just about the only first born son left in the show who’s been taught to lead since birth. So far he’s been neglecting that duty. I expect that to change.

      In the grand scheme of things, I don’t think Jon, Bran, Sansa or Arya are going to care about who wields the remnants of their ancestral sword, so long as those who do carry them fight alongside them during the Long Night. Furthermore, I consistently see people overlooking the fact that Jaime featured really prominently in Bran’s green dream. REALLY prominently. I’ve always thought that a fitting ending to the show would be the reconciliation of the Stark and Lannister houses seen as it’s the war between them that kicked everything off. An alliance through marriage between Brienne, Sansa’s sworn sword, and Jaime facilitates that. Them wielding these ‘two halves of one whole’ swords is both a metaphor and a catalyst for that.

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    189. Dani:

      I’ve always thought that a fitting ending to the show would be the reconciliation of the Stark and Lannister houses seen as it’s the war between them that kicked everything off. An alliance through marriage between Brienne, Sansa’s sworn sword, and Jaime facilitates that. Them wielding these ‘two halves of one whole’ swords is both a metaphor and a catalyst for that.

      Tyrion tells Sansa in ACOK that no marriage would reconcile Stark and Lannister after what’s happened, and I tend to agree with him. Brienne is not a member of House Stark in any sense, so her marrying Jaime wouldn’t do anything to reconcile the Starks to the Lannisters. I mean, if she does marry Jaime, that’s all well and good for her, but I doubt that would cancel out any lingering ill will over Jaime or House Lannister’s misdeeds towards the Starks. “Oh, Brienne has wed Jaime? Red Wedding erased!!!”

      If any marriage will reconcile the Stark and Lannister houses, it would be an actual marriage between members of the respective houses, meaning Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage, not Jaime’s marriage to a non-Stark, but 1) Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage is over and 2) Tyrion was correct when he opined that no marriage would reconcile Stark and Lannister. Not to say that the Starks and the Lannisters 100% won’t reconcile, but it would probably take a lot more than a marriage: Jaime sacrificing himself to save the Starks, for example. The whole issue of the Stark/Lannister relationship could be academic anyway, if as many fans suspect Jaime and his siblings die before the end of the series

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    190. Hursta1,

      That’s not a “legitimate gripe”, that’s a sad backstory to what is now ultimately a monster. And that’s not foreign to classical hero tales, by any means. The Night King, as he exists now, is without nuance.

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    191. LEAK DISCUSSION

      One thing from the leak disussions I have read so far doesnt ring true to me. People keep mentioning that Euron finds out that the WW cant swim and heads back to Iron Islands? If that is in the leak then surely the leak is inaccurate… the first long night was Planetos-wide, not just Westeros so they must be able to cross water.

      Or am I missing something?

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    192. Con Jonnington,

      [Leaks]

      Going by book canon, that’s inaccurate, but we already saw at Hardhome in the show that the White Walkers and wights seem not to be able to follow into the water, unlike in the book version of Hardhome (“dead things in the water” and all that).

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    193. Great closeups.

      To “Clob”:

      I like your idea that Dany hides her troops in the Kingswood. I looked at the maps and they/she would cut off Lannister troops trying to go from Storms End to King’s Landing. Dany would also cut off all shipments of food from The Reach along the Roseroad toward the city. That leaves only two ways Cersai can escape, over land, while unrest rises in KL: north toward the neck, or east toward Casterly Rock. I don’t have to guess which way she’ll go, if it comes to that!

      There’ll also be some good hunting in those woods and grazing for horses…and cover.

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    194. elybe: ghost of winterfell,

      Blasphemy. I have it on good authority from a certain super unbiased contingent of this fandom that every other character is expendable. I choose not to hold the likelihood that they skipped every chapter taking place outside of Essos against them. It can be really tedious slogging through the 90% of the series dedicated to those shiny distractions masquerading as other protagonists.

      Ok, so some fandom is wack, but that doesn’t mean they’re not right about some things:

      Dany and Bran are unique in the show. They each can do some things that no other character can.

      Dany can hatch, mother and ride dragons. She’s impervious to flames. She’s an unbelievable conqueror and has moral fibre not seen in anyone else on the show, considering there’s so much brutality afoot. Other people see cruelty and say meh. Dany sees cruelty and puts an end to it.

      Bran can see the past and future. He can warg into animals and humans.

      Neither of these characters can be replaced by any other, so in that sense, they’re not expendable.

      I guess what I’m saying is that despite fan opinion, there’s still such a thing as objective reality, and it’s not fair to dismiss the things they say that are objectively true.

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    195. Alvaricomg,

      the leak literally says “Jon needs to provide proof that the Undead are real. So he goes beyond the Wall with the Hound,Beric,Thoros and Tormund to capture one. They succeed but Beric and Viserion die in the process.

      you know, if Beric and Viserion die, I wouldn’t call that a success.

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    196. Anon,

      The magical elements of Dany or Bran’s storylines do not make them any less expendable than characters who have had their supernatural abilities omitted (i.e. every Stark who isn’t Bran). But I think we know who this is really about lowering. You can try to downplay the significance of resurrection (the show has made it explicit that the Red God doesn’t bring back just anyone), or the fact that Bran’s visions are predominantly focused on the birth of a character that many Dany fans are determined to downgrade in importance, but that won’t change where the story is going. Like it or not, Bran’s visions are centered on his big bro for a reason. The actor playing the Night King was instructed by Sapochnik to take a keen interest in him during Hardhome for a reason. The parallels between him and Dany exist for a reason, and I’m sorry to say that that hers occurring on a grander scale do not make her more relevant than him. She has more assets and military power in the story, not more importance.

      I think at some point you have to wonder what mechanism is behind the need to create a separate league for two characters based exclusively on magical snowflake status. The funny thing is, when I first got into this series, Jon was barely on my radar. I’d only seen the first two seasons before I read the books just before season 3. You know when I realized what a big deal he actually was? When I visited an online discussion forum for the first time shortly before reading the series and saw so many Dany fans working overtime trying to deny it. I suppose it can’t be easy when a character’s importance is self-evident to the majority of the fandom without having to hatch any dragons, conquer any cities, resist any flames, or access any tree visions. What is it about Jon being equally as invaluable as Dany that some of her fans find so unacceptable? Why is her having a leg up at all times, to the point of trying to wave off coming back from the dead just because the show used a pre-existing method for it, so important? I think a little self-awareness goes a long way when accusing Jon fans of expecting him to be everything in this series. He’s a slow burn whose significance has been unfolded slowly over the course of the series rather than blowing his epicness wad in the first season, and most readers and viewers have picked up on that. Trying to re-frame his every accomplishment as inconsequential at best and a failure at worst kind of reeks of desperation and denial.

      Anon,

      By that definition, there hasn’t been a single successful victory in this entire series. What’s the point of trying to frame a mission that completely alters the realm’s priorities as a failure? How much harder can you possibly reach?

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    197. elybe: The magical elements of Dany or Bran’s storylines do not make them any less expendable than characters who have had their supernatural abilities omitted (i.e. every Stark who isn’t Bran). …..

      What supernatural abilities do Sansa, Arya and Rickon have?

      elybe: But I think we know who this is really about lowering. You can try to downplay the significance of resurrection (the show has made it explicit that the Red God doesn’t bring back just anyone), or the fact that Bran’s visions are predominantly focused on the birth of a character that many Dany fans are determined to downgrade in importance, but that won’t change where the story is going. Like it or not, Bran’s visions are centered on his big bro for a reason

      Is Beric, for instance, as significant as Jon? They’ve both been resurrected. Beric has been resurrected many more times than Jon. Does that make him 5 or six times more significant? Being resurrected isn’t unique, it’s rare, but not unique. Some people might say the person doing the resurrecting is more significant than the resurrectee.

      I don’t know if I’d say Bran’s visions are “centered” on Jon…so far. What makes Jon rare is that he’s one of only 2 Targs still living…and a secret heir to the iron throne. His astronomical rise in station is also rare. He’s the second NW who has allied with the Free Folk, that makes him rare. As far as UNIQUE, I don’t see anything only he can do….but maybe that’s still to be revealed.

      The actor playing the Night King was instructed by Sapochnik to take a keen interest in him during Hardhome for a reason

      Yeah, cause the guy was wailin’ on his brother wight with his Valyrian steel sword! Nobody else out there had Valyrian steel, and managed to kill a wight. That was unique and notable – in that moment. I expect the NK to pay close attention to that.

      The parallels between him and Dany exist for a reason, and I’m sorry to say that that hers occurring on a grander scale do not make her more relevant than him. She has more assets and military power in the story, not more importance.

      Isn’t that what relevance and importance is, though? Something that’s grander, bigger, unique….almost as if it’s coloured in with a yellow highlighter pen, that makes it relevant, no?

      You know when I realized what a big deal he actually was? When I visited an online discussion forum for the first time shortly before reading the series and saw so many Dany fans working overtime trying to deny it. I suppose it can’t be easy when a character’s importance is self-evident to the majority of the fandom without having to hatch any dragons, conquer any cities, resist any flames, or access any tree visions. What is it about Jon being equally as invaluable as Dany that some of her fans find so unacceptable? Why is her having a leg up at all times, to the point of trying to wave off coming back from the dead just because the show used a pre-existing method for it, so important? I think a little self-awareness goes a long way when accusing Jon fans of expecting him to be everything in this series.

      I realized Jon was a big deal when he was centered in the frame in ep 1, se 1….and he was the first one to speak in the scene. That’s right after the walker opening. Fans can’t tell me shite, when my own eyes tell me the truth. C’mon, you can’t brush off hatching dragons, conquering cities and seeing the future as irrelevant! There are millions of people in the east who revere Dany…millions!

      And about the wight catching shit-storm… I’m in denial about Jon’s reasons for catching the wight. I know the reports here say he does it for proof…but, I like to think that Jon is smarter than that….or more cynical than that. I’d like to think he’s learned that some people will NEVER be with you, no matter how much proof you provide… and sometimes you just gotta fight with the men you have, like he said at BotB. And maybe sometimes it’s better if they’re NOT with you…

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    198. No worries, I’m game for long replies.

      Anon: What supernatural abilities do Sansa, Arya and Rickon have?

      They’re all wargs in the books, as per GRRM. Sansa never manifested her ability because Lady was killed before she had the chance, and Rickon isn’t a POV character. Nevertheless, it’s book canon that all of the Stark children are wargs. The show just omitted Jon’s and Arya’s warg powers and decided to channel all of the magical elements through Bran.

      Is Beric, for instance, as significant as Jon? They’ve both been resurrected.Beric has been resurrected many more times than Jon.Does that make him 5 or six times more significant? Being resurrected isn’t unique, it’s rare, but not unique.Some people might say the person doing the resurrecting is more significant than the resurrectee.

      Jon hasn’t been killed as many times as Beric, and in the books he almost certainly warged into Ghost upon his “death.” The show and books have diverged on this. Book Beric is dead for good, Book Davos is nowhere near Castle Black, and Book Melisandre already knows that Jon is going to be stabbed. As for who is more significant? Since when is coming back from the dead the overriding criteria to determine that? Are we going to take into account screen time, chapter count, centrality, foreshadowing, or thematic importance? Are you going to factor in how rising from the dead impacts Jon’s character arc compared to a tertiary character whose resurrections exist only to communicate to the audience that this is possible? Because rather than fixating on the uniqueness of the event, I’d rather focus on the implications. The function of these resurrections in the show was to layout for the audience that Red Priests and Priestesses don’t have the power to resurrect people. Beric was too important to stay dead, and so is Jon. That’s what the audience needs to know.

      I don’t know if I’d say Bran’s visions are “centered” on Jon…so far. As far as UNIQUE, I don’t see anything only he can do….but maybe that’s still to be revealed.

      The Tower of Joy and introduction to Lyanna in Winterfell took up the bulk of the focus for Bran’s visions in Season 6. The Hodor reveal was actually the only stand-alone vision that wasn’t related to Jon’s parentage. The Three-Eyed-Raven specifically brought him to that tower as part of his training in preparation for the apocalypse, but felt he wasn’t ready for the full truth. Once Bran absorbed the Raven’s visions, the tower was the first place he was directed to when he accessed the Weirnet on his own. There’s significance in that.

      As for unique abilities, Jon may or may not ultimately be revealed as having them. Melisandre hung that gun on the wall in Season 5 when she told Jon “There’s power in you. You resist it, and that it your mistake. Embrace it.” What is Jon resisting, and what will happen when he embraces it? Does it actually matter, though? Is Dany’s worth as a character measured by how flame-retardant she is? To me it was never about that. It comes down to the choices a character makes. Dany chose her role as a conqueror and liberator. Jon chose his role as a unifying force and protector of the realm. Some choose to measure their characters by the narrative gifts that helped them achieve those ends. I don’t.

      Yeah, cause the guy was wailin’ on his brother wight with his Valyrian steel sword!Nobody else out there had Valyrian steel, and managed to kill a wight.That was unique and notable – in that moment. I expect the NK to pay close attention to that.

      I don’t think we necessarily disagree on this. The difference is that directorial and film-making choices are very deliberate. If you want your Big Bad to take particular notice of a character as a specific threat to them, when all that character has done so far is kill one of their lieutenants with an ancient weapon, then you’d better believe this will be revisited. D&D and Sapochnik went out of their way to have the Night King notice Jon and take his actions personally enough to taunt him. Again, this is being unfolded slowly. Bran has the NK’s mark on him and has been identified as one of the key threats against him. This was a case of spelling things out for the audience. Jon’s status as another key threat against him, meanwhile, was shown to us. There’s a lot of show vs tell at play in Jon’s arc.

      C’mon, you can’t brush off hatching dragons, conquering cities and seeing the future as irrelevant! There are millions of people in the east who revere Dany…millions!

      Who’s brushing it off? All of that is massive. But some fans make the mistake of taking the extravagance of Dany’s side of the parallels compared to the subtlety of Jon’s as evidence that he’s secondary to her. Millions shout from the rooftops that Dany’s the savoir of humankind. Jon, meanwhile, has no idea why he was considered important enough to come back from the dead and bristles at the notion of being viewed as a god. Dany has embraced her identity and power from early on, while Jon has been suppressing his identity, resisting his power, and is still unclear on what his place in the world is. I don’t measure the worth or expendability of either of them by the grandeur of what they do. I thought the young woman who stood up to her brother in Season 1 back when she had no dragons, armies, or titles to speak of was one of the most compelling characters in the series.

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    199. elybe,

      I don’t know what site you are talking about…

      I have been in these fandom for 2009..
      If you are speaking about the years after season 2 and between 3 …those years where nightmares for dany fans( and sansa and cat) you can go to check westeros.org and check for yourself what happened in the years of 2012 to 15 ..
      granted Jon snow now seems to be getting some hate and dislike and I can only put that as what goes around and comes around..

      You talk about downplaying Jon but what I encountered is complete opposite …say the moments like dragons hatching happened becuse of MMD and and ignoring what GRRM HIMSELF says about the pyre event .to how they keep insisting that it was never GRRm intention to use dragons in the story but ignoring that he wanted to give dany and targ fire control power…people don’t go saying dany is the only character that is needed and others are expendable( yes before somone says it i have seen a certain poster mention it but one poster doesnt make the fandom) ..dany is always brushed off as a red heriring to Jon and simply there to provide dragons and army to him …I can go on …

      It doesn’t matter what place you go westeros.org WOTW and WiC reddit 4chan YouTube Facebook saying that dany fans are more dicks than these Jon fans is completely false…iam not saying that dsny fans are not like that …every fandom has a part that acts like that but they are less compared to what jon fans do ..and if you don’t see that then you yourself must be biased towards Jon and against dany …

      Ask yourself a fandom where all the quotes and foreshadowing are made known by every person on the internet. ..why there was no mention of the foreshadowing of Jon reading the tale of AA fighting a monster and dany with kraznys in astopor and how it was not spoken by everyone before last year ..i can guarantee that if that was about Jon it would have made well known by all in the fandom..

      You speak about bran vision being about Jon….just remember that its the only way show thinks they can do the reveal …all bran saw last season can be seen in Ned chapters in AGOT ..not saying Jon isn’t important but bran having vision about him doesnt mean much when you know its different in books

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    200. dragonbringer,

      I’m not sure what happened between 2009 and 2012 (which is when I first started watching the series), but I’ve checked all sorts of sites, including Westeros.org, and Jon has always received his fair share of hate. No karma required. He isn’t as polarizing as Dany, I’ll grant you, but his haters are pretty vocal in their own right. I did notice that most of the Dany hate, however, was coming from Stannis fans, not Jon fans, and there was a pretty sizable contingent that liked them both.

      As for Dany’s importance being downplayed, I agree that it happens, and I agree that it’s a load of crap. However, that’s because I believe that there are very specific reasons why she and Jon have been paralleled, and they pointedly each tick off different prophetic boxes. My argument is that it’s two-sided. While some Jon fans claim that this entire series is strictly about him (Ice and Fire and all that), some Dany fans have a knee-jerk reaction to any implications that Jon’s function against the white walkers and secret parentage has a prophetic significance equal to hers. In her case, though, it seems to almost be about defending what’s perceived as her territory. Jon can’t be a dragon-rider. Jon can’t be a legitimate Targaryen. If Mel proclaims Jon as TPTWP, it can only be because she hasn’t met Dany yet. It can’t possibly be that she and Kinvara are both correct; there just happen to be two people who fit the bill in different ways. And so on and so forth. It happens on both sides. I never argued that one group was worse than the other. I was countering the assertion that Dany matters more than Jon in this series, which happens to be gaining traction among her fanbase as Jon’s screen time, status, and degree of focus continues to climb.

      As for being biased against Dany, I just wrote above that Season 1 Dany was one of my top characters. She got one-note for me after she got to Slaver’s Bay, and the entitlement gets a bit grating sometimes, but I still hold out hope that she’ll display the dimension we saw from her in Season 1 at some point.

      As for foreshadowing, I’m not sure what you mean. Jon’s been leading the charge against the white walkers for years now, he took up the mantle of protector of the realm by choice, and he and Dany both got proclaimed as the chosen one by different Red Priestesses in the same season. As for what Bran’s visions mean, the significance is self-evident. Bran is being given the information he needs to know in order to defeat the Night King. Jon’s lineage has specifically been singled out. It matters, and it doesn’t take anything away from Dany.

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    201. elybe,

      I love both Dany and Jon, though I have enjoyed Dany’s story more than Jon. It can get a bit dull at the wall. I think they are both equally important and when it comes down to it they have always fought for the same thing to save people from being enslaved. Dany in Slavers Bay and Jon against the WW and I can see Dany joining him on that fight. The author has said before he doesn’t like stories with one chosen one so I think this will lead to a team effort instead there is nothing against believing both Dany and Jon share certain elements of the prince who was promised and Bran will also have a lot of importance against the WW.

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    202. dragonbringer,

      While I am sure there are Jon fans who think that Dany’s purpose in this story is only to get her dragons and her army to him, at that same time there is no shortage of Dany fans who think that the WWs will be defeated when she personally goes against the NK and defeats him all by herself (no matter that the show actually took the trouble to show the NK take a special interest in Jon, that’s just brushed off as nothing).. This has been particularly evident after that interview GRRM gave that explaining “ice” and “fire”, where people now claim that this story is about Dany vs the white walkers and that Jon and the other Starks have nothing to do with it. So where does that leave the main characters whose story so far has revolved around facing this threat i.e., Jon and Bran?

      There has been enough foreshadowing throughout the books and the show about the importance of all the 3 characters in terms of defeating the WWs. Yet the fans of these characters (except for poor Bran, he just doesn’t get that much support) claim that their favorite will be the truly important one, thus reducing the importance of the others. This is not restricted to just one fandom, sorry, Dany fans are just as bad as Jon fans in this regard. (Before you point it out, I am talking of the current scenario, I have no idea what went on in 2012.)

      I think a lot of this competition comes from people’s belief that there can be only one AA/tptwp and he/she will be the messiah and saviour of mankind. It is not going to be so simple and if it all comes down to just one chararcter, then it is a massive disservice to the others. I think all 3 Bran, Dany and Jon will be indepensable in defeating the WWs.

      Mel,

      I agree with what you say about team effort and the importance of Jon, Dany and Bran.

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    203. innocence,

      Tolkien doesn’t have many main characters the way Martin has.Martin is probably the first writer with so many Pov characters .I always felt like Bran’s powers are more of a burden to him than a weapon.Unlike Dany who’s dragons make her stronger not only as a queen but as a person as well ( emotionally). The three characters with the most povs are Tyrion, Jon,Arya. Then is Dany ,Sansa ,Bran.

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    204. Hursta1:
      innocence,

      The assertion that all Lannister and Stark soldiers were responsible for the war is bunk.That’s like saying that since I fought in Iraq I was responsible for the war.A few people are responsible for the civil war in Westeros.Jamie may not be high on that list but he bears some responsibility.He did father the Bastards and tried to sit them on the Iron Throne.Jamie has this nice retribution thing working but he isn’t there and won’t be until he makes amend to Bran for trying to kill him at the very least.

      To me Petyr and Cersei are responsible for the war.Jaime shares a small responsibility for being seduced like fool by Cersei , letting her make him her pawn and letting his bastards become heirs (Cersei sedused Jaime in the first place because she wanted everything. To be Rhaeghar’s queen and keep Jaime for herself). He was not driven by lust for power like Petyr or Cersei.He was more than willing to leave everything behind and run away with his sister and her children. Even if they didn’t share an incestuous relationship , Littlefinger would still kill Jon Arryn and manipulate Ned ( through Lysa’s letter ) to make him accept the position. Then he would have found another way to make the Lannisters and the Starks fight each other. And Cersei created many problems trying to antagonize her daughter in law. We know she is capable to do anything in order to keep her crown .Any younger queen is a threat to her, no matter who that is( Marg or Sansa or anyone).There is also Varys who wants a Targ on the throne, so war was going to happen no matter what. The soldiers are not responsible fot the war, only for the monstrosities they committed during the war.

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    205. In all honesty , to me Jaime is one of Cersei’s many victims.She is manipulating him emotionally for years. He’s case is in away similar to Sansa’s (littlefinger) , except , unfortunately for him , he is in love with his manipulator.

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    206. Any show watcher/book reader will have a favorite. Rooting for a favorite to come out on top is only natural. I remember after season 4 how all my show only friends seemed to be oblivious to Jon’s importance. I asked one of them “tell me who you think the 3 most important characters are.” She said “Dany and Arya and Tyrion”. Having read the books I asked “What about Jon?” She said he was boring-never said anything and she could not stand the wall scenes. I understand. Before the show started I wondered how they could possibly show Jon as we book readers know him. He rarely speaks. He is an angry young man. Those of us privy to his inner dialogue, his

      dreams, warging and hints about him in other peoples dreams and prophesies

      allow us to know him better and understand his significance. It is completely understandable.

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    207. Pam R,

      It really is amazing how much the public perception of his character changed from Season 5 onward. During last year’s off-season, I asked several unsullied friends and coworkers why they were so convinced that he wasn’t staying dead (no one bought what HBO was selling). The near-unanimous answer was, “Because otherwise they don’t have a show.” I doubt anyone would have given that answer during Seasons 2 or 3. It’s not entirely surprising, though. A lot of book readers pinpoint the second half of ASOS as the point when they got into Jon’s story, which corresponds to late Season 4/early Season 5. That’s around the time his popularity skyrocketed with unsullied viewers, too.

      As for favorites, sure, everyone has them. You see people griping about screen time and episode counts and who gets the biggest set pieces all the time. I’d argue that there’s somewhat of a difference between wanting your fave on top and grasping to dismiss any textual clues that elevate the importance of their “competitors,” though.

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    208. My prediction that Jaime & Brienne will stand back-to-back fighting Wights & White Walkers at some point as they confess their true love for each other stands and is only getting stronger!

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    209. M,

      Brienne is not a member of House Stark in any sense, so her marrying Jaime wouldn’t do anything to reconcile the Starks to the Lannisters. I mean, if she does marry Jaime, that’s all well and good for her, but I doubt that would cancel out any lingering ill will over Jaime or House Lannister’s misdeeds towards the Starks. “Oh, Brienne has wed Jaime? Red Wedding erased!!!”

      Sansa is alive thanks to Jaime in a sense.

      Jaime had nothing to do with the Red Wedding.

      Desperate times make for strange alliances. The Starks and Lannisters will like each other more than they like the White Walkers.

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