While promoting his latest film, Adult Material, Joe Dempsie shared his thoughts on season 8 of Game of Thrones and Gendry and Arya’s controversial love scene, in particular.
In an interview with Independent, Dempsie admitted that, initially, the prospect of Gendry and Arya becoming an item made him uncomfortable.
“It was an odd transition purely because I’d seen Maisie grow up,” he said. “I’d met her when she was a child and, during the course of the first three seasons, it was something I was asked regularly because [Martin’s] books suggest there’s a possible romance. It always made me slightly uncomfortable.
“I know we were recreating fantasy, but we as actors have to make it very much in reality, and they were asking me to comment on whether I – at the time, a 25-year-old man – would like my character to hook up with a 14-year-old. I always avoided answering the questions. But it was something I then had to think about.”
To be clear, he found filming their actual sex scene “absolutely fine” because, well, Maisie Williams wasn’t a child anymore.
“When we were doing season eight, Maisie was a grown woman. Also, putting that initial discomfort to the side, I didn’t wanna patronise her. She’s an incredibly capable young woman who commanded the respect of that set, so to play up about doing the scene would have been doing her a massive disservice.”
On the topic of season 8 as a whole, Dempsie admitted he has “sympathy” for those who found it rushed. “Watching it back, I think they could have maybe taken a little more time,” he said.
However, he called the suggestion that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss hurried through season 8 so they could get to their (now cancelled) Star Wars trilogy absolutely “bonkers.”
He also said he likes the final episode and its message that “the human race can put their differences aside to defeat a common enemy …. That is something we could all do with addressing.”
I think (or thought) it was ‘necessary’ at the time with my belief their relationship would be different at the end. I still wish Gendry had been with her on the ship sailing west of Westeros. There are other acceptable options, but together is the main point. I’m assuming, or at least hoping that George does them better.
ASNAWP!!
Joe Dempsie: “She’s an incredibly capable young woman who commanded the respect of that set…”
And so begins a Maisie Williams Appreciation Thread.
“All Roads Lead to Arya”
– Ancient Roman Adage
#ASNAWP 👸🏻
How come there isn’t an article discussing the Hibberd book that came out a few weeks ago? I’ve just finished it and there is plenty to talk about!
oierem,
I read it and I enjoyed it immensely.
He also said he likes the final episode and its message that “the human race can put their differences aside to defeat a common enemy …. That is something we could all do with addressing.”
The message was actually humanity is completely screwed unless you have a supernatural Three-Eyed Raven as king. They also agreed to make Bran king based on him having the “best story”. It was a totally unrealistically amicable resolution.
Completely useless when it comes to real life issues. It actually made me feel less optimistic about reality.
As for the Puritan-like squeamishness that came out of people during the Arya/Gendry sex scene, that was the perfect example of phony outrage over nothing. It’s a show about tits and dragons. Nothing illegal happened, no one wa hurt, scarred for life, etc…
Were these people expecting Little House on the Prairie instead? Get over yourselves.
Mr Derp,
This reminds me a bit of what Alt Shift X said:
It’s true that Bran is a new and different kind of ruler who can be neutral, who isn’t swayed or subject to human emotions, but as Alt Shift X said, “Bran being king suggests that the solution to human evil isn’t human good, it’s being not human.” Which… I think is a little yikes. And a debate all on its own.
Well, there’s the popular fan canon (with accompanying memes) that Gendry was back in his rowboat furiously paddling to catch up with Arya’s direwolf ship as it left the harbor.
Gendry, gamely putting on a “straight face” while sitting a few feet away from his beloved during the finale’s dragonpit summit, didn’t fool me. He had to be jonesing for her affections. Otherwise, his declaration of undying love would have been insincere and his marriage proposal would have been frivolous – and that would have defied human nature: Except for his meth- or caffeine-induced jittery behavior and witch-whinging in S7, Gendry was portrayed as a level-headed, decent guy not prone to flightiness. Besides, there was no indication he had inherited his biological father’s manwhoring tendencies. If he said “I love you,” he meant it.
Despite Arya politely declining Gendry’s marriage proposal with the assurance that he’ll be a wonderful lord and any lady would be lucky to have him,* how could any other woman measure up to the Hero of Winterfell/Savior of the World?
* (Jamie take note: That is how you break up with someone.)
Not to mention the impression that courageous and loyal young woman must have made for saving his life on multiple occasions, including:
– Her quick thinking to attribute the bull’s head helmet to fGendry (dead Lommy) when the Gold Cloak posse ambushed the NW recruits to execute a royal warrant for him; and
– Parlaying one of her three Jaqen-owed kills into a get out of jail free card to spring Gendry from Harrenhal Internment Camp (with its rat bucket torture, slave labor, and other fun and games).
– Also, while Hot Pie and Gendry cowered behind a tree trunk, Arya had ducked out of their hiding place to confront Thoros and his merry men and try to persuade them to go on their way. (Thoros: “I like dangerous people.” 😉) Once again, she stuck her neck out to protect him.
– She had correctly tried to warn him against joining the BwoB, and later attempted to forcibly intervene when she accurately surmised that the Red Witch was going to try to hurt him.
– She condemned Thoros and Beric and added them to her List for selling Gendry to the Red Witch, who then turned him into a newt. (He got better.) She called them out on their flimsy excuse that the Lord of Light wanted Gendry.
Gendry was fully aware Arya did not want to settle down and be a conventional “lady.” (How many times did she have to repeat that?) A real man would accept her on her own terms, and offer to go on adventures with her. F*ck Storm’s End.
There was no reason to think it would be palatable to hide her away from the world in a dreary castle. (And this will lead to today’s upcoming Musical Interlude…🎶)
#ASNAWP 👸🏻
#DoNotCallMeMyLady
It was a great read overall, including some “big” reveals about what comes from Martin, what doesn’t…
oierem,
There have been a couple of articles (about George R R Martin thinking the hunting scene with Robert Baratheon hunting was someone sparse in terms of personnel and then about why Lady Stoneheart was cut from the show). Maybe the book has so much content that it is difficult to confine a discussion of it to one article.
Ten Bears,
The book BWB don’t betray Gendry. The show combined Book Gendry’s arc with that of another of Robert’s bastards – I won’t say any more because of spoilers. I didn’t mind the Gendry and Arya love scene as it was (as Joe Dempsie correctly points out) between two adults though I wouldn’t have wanted a romantic bond between G and A when Maisie Williams was very young in seasons 2 and 3.
Musical Interlude
Dedicated to S8e4 Gendry from Arya
🎶 “Some boys take a beautiful girl 👰🏻
And hide her away from the rest of the world. 🏰
I want to be the one to walk in the sun,
Oh girls, they want to have fun
Oh girls just want to have fun.”🎶
“Girls Just Want to Have Fun” (1983)
– Cyndi Lauper
Tron79 Mashup Video
at 1:50 – 2:17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s91O0bJCBOA
👩🏻🎤👸🏻
Have at it!
For nostalgia’s sake, take a look at Maisie Williams being interviewed in March, 2013 at the Season 3 Premiere…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz8q6ftDrFs
… In particular, at 0:16 – 0:50, when young Maisie is asked to name “Westeros’s sexiest man alive.”
Ten Bears,
Adorable!
Adrianacandle,
Yes but as we see essentially Tyrion is in charge and will be doing alk the heavy lifting. We had Tyrion, Davos, Sam, and Bronn that’s a big change compared to what we had before. Alt Shift is not paying attention to the fact Bran basically said to Tyrion he’s going to be running the show.
I think that it’d be a fair speculation to say that the council would be doing the day-to-day business, yes, and I’d think they’d be bringing matters to Bran’s attention. Yet, I’d think the final decisions and judgements would still fall to King Three-Eyed Raven Bran. King Bran — who’s more like a computer with a built-in fact checker in his head. As a result, these decisions won’t be prone to the same human error and emotion as previous kings. As a result, I’d still agree with Alt Shift X’s assessment in that way.
Yup. For all the interest King Bran showed in the discussions of his small council and the matters affecting the day to day lives of his subjects, the Six Kingdoms may as well be ruled by…
… King Robert.
P.S. If having the “best stories” is the standard, I’d prefer Robert’s war stories and reminiscing about “making the eight,” rather than Bran’s tales of mind melding with magic birds and getting his friends and puppy killed.
• I’m glad I’m not the only one who found it odd that Joe Dempsie said that the “message” of the final episode was that “the human race can put their differences aside to defeat a common enemy.”
What “common enemy” did the human race “defeat” in the final episode? Who set aside their differences in order to defeat that enemy?
Did I miss something in the final episode?
• As for “phony outrage” over the the Arya/Gendry sex scene, it’s not limited to bogus Puritanical squeamishness….
– brb… to be cont. …
I considered that perhaps Dempsie might have been thinking more of episode 3 and/or perhaps something was misconstrued in translation by the writer?
Mr Derp,
I thought they made it perfectly clear that the small council would play a major role in shaping the new world.
I’m not sure what was unrealistic about Bran’s coronation. It made as much sense for him to be nominated as anyone else at the meeting. In fact, Tyrion nominating a Stark made the most sense, since the meeting was comprised almost exclusively of Stark family and friends. A Stark had the best chance of being voted in.
Ten Bears,
Bran at least offered to find Drogon himself. That automatically makes him better than Robert.
Young Dragon,
In fact, Tyrion nominating a Stark made the most sense, since the meeting was comprised almost exclusively of Stark family and friends. A Stark had the best chance of being voted in.
Tyrion’s “the best story” line was a rhetorical gimmick, because his use of plain language would have been impolitic. Bran was the only candidate everyone would accept (or, more accurately, the only candidate anyone would not immediately reject). Everyone also knew leaving the meeting without a chosen king would put Westeros back where it was at the start of the War of the Five Kings, only with Dothraki riding around as well. So, they had to choose right then and there, and Tyrion gently gave them a face-saving way of making the only real choice they had.
Tyrion had a number of brilliant moments throughout the story, but he saved his best for when everyone really needed it.
You yourself have said in the past multiple times that you didn’t like the dragonpit scene.
The fact that Tyrion was able to nominate anyone at all is dumb. He went from being on trial for treason to hand-picking the next king of Westeros in one fell swoop.
They already had a Small Council prior to Bran being king. Having a Small Council in and of itself doesn’t do anything to further progress. It’s just more of the same. The Small Council will obviously need to get the final approval from the all-knowing cheat code that is Bran in order to do anything. It’s like having the answers to the test before taking it. This in no way translates to anything realistic or anything that could apply to real world situations, which is the discussion here. I agree with everything that Alt Shift X said about this scene.
Why was it so easy for the lords at the Dragonpit meeting to agree on Bran being king? None of them know what a Three-Eyed Raven is nor do they have any connection to the Old Gods up North.
This whole show was about ambitious noble families fighting and scheming for power, but now, in this one scene, all the great houses agree to give up their power to a strange psychic kid because he “has a good story”?
Game of Thrones was always about the struggle between human good and human evil within each person. Bran being the only choice for a good king suggests that the solution to human evil isn’t human good, it’s being not human at all. With the failures of Jaime and Dany, season 8 felt deeply cynical about the possibility of human good.
Ten Bears,
Bran’s story is a story of perseverance, sacrifice, and survival against impossible odds in pursuit of a higher purpose. Would you call that a bad story for a war-ravaged continent to unite behind? Robert’s story is the story of getting half of Westeros to fight the other half because he was pissed some girl rejected him.
Mr Derp,
This in no way translates to anything realistic or anything that could apply to real world situations, which is the discussion here.
Why, it’s almost as if the story was a fantasy! 😉
Why was it so easy for the lords at the Dragonpit meeting to agree on Bran being king?
He was the least objectionable of their possible choices.
This whole show was about ambitious noble families fighting and scheming for power, but now, in this one scene, all the great houses agree to give up their power to a strange psychic kid because he “has a good story”?
And that struggle for power left everyone worse off, ultimately reducing the largest city on Westeros to a pile of smoking rubble. Why not choose an un-objectionable heir to the House of Stark? Plus, there was now a foreign army and a foreign horde threatening more chaos and bloodshed. The electors in the dragonpit made the best choice they could in the time they had. (Which, BTW, is how successful governments in our own time and world actually behave.)
Bran being the only choice for a good king suggests that the solution to human evil isn’t human good, it’s being not human at all.
Or that feudalism could only work with an omniscient monarch who doesn’t have the usual human motivations for wanting power, which is why feudalism has long since been eliminated from most of our world.
With the failures of Jaime and Dany, season 8 felt deeply cynical about the possibility of human good.
Jaime was a callous, privileged scion of a Great House, who seems to have improved a bit with his suffering and travels, but ultimately could not overcome the abuses he had suffered in his childhood. Dany was never a good person, but she and everyone around her had their own reasons for thinking she was. When she acquired great power without restraint, the results were unsurprising.
Overall, I found the ending as hopeful as such a story is likely to get. Westeros has better government than ever before, most of the surviving characters are happy with their lots, and most of the unsympathetic characters are gone.
You realize the point and origin of this discussion started because I was debating Joe Dempsey’s opinion that the ending to GoT can help us in the real world right? Saying the story is a “fantasy” completely misses the point of the discussion I was having. Thanks for the passive aggressiveness though. That was totally helpful!
I don’t know… I don’t think this really answers the question of “Why Bran?” Why would they agree to Bran instead of opting for one of their own to represent their interests? What about Bran instills faith in them that he’s going to do right by all of them? I think it needs to go beyond being the heir to House Stark (especially if they’re moving beyond blood succession), I think it needs to go into something that everyone in that council — regardless of house — can agree Bran has, something that puts him above everyone else, something that compels each member of the council to vote for him. For example: why would Dorne agree to Bran? In the show, this quality was Bran having the “best story”, which I think is rather flimsy.
And Bran is virtually unknown to just about all of the council (other than Sam, Arya, and Sansa). And one of those three, Sansa, opts to break away from Bran’s kingdom.
Adrianacandle,
Exactly! There’s no reason for Bran to just be unilaterally accepted as king, because, well, because he has a good story? As I’ve said before, no one outside of the North has any idea what a Three-Eyed Raven is or does. They probably wouldn’t believe it at face value anyway, but that was exactly what happened. Most of Westeros scoffed at the idea of an Army of the Dead, yet they just go along with Three-Eyed Raven mumbo jumbo?
And the other Houses hear Sansa say the North is going to be independent, yet none of them say, hey wait a minute, I want to be independent too!?
Compromising is one thing, but yikes. Everyone at the dragonpit scene just went along with this without any critical thinking or debating at all.
Mr Derp,
Yeah, as if they were all tired, just wanted to stop the debate, go home, and sleep 😉
But yeah, I had wondered this same thing — especially for Dorne and the Iron Islands. Maybe this particular plot point (the reason for Bran becoming king) is better fleshed out in the books and given solid ground. Perhaps D&D had to scramble a bit and come up with the “best story” explanation because GRRM hasn’t figured out the why yet?
I suspect the ultimate idea is to move beyond a blood-inheritance system and baby step their way into a more elective government bit by bit but uh… yeah. I don’t know that “best story” would be grounds for election.
I think we can all relate to that 🙂
Yeah, despite the (what I’d view to be) dystopian implications (inhuman human being the best choice to rule Westeros), most of the council would be unaware of Bran’s more… magical… attributes. And yes, why would they believe it? These supernatural attributes used to be the justification I provided myself as a viewer (Bran being able to be an impartial, objective, fact-checking king who can’t be deceived) but this is the very justification most of that council (with the exception of Sansa, Arya, and sam) would be unaware of.
Yup!
Mr Derp,
You realize the point and origin of this discussion started because I was debating Joe Dempsey’s opinion that the ending to GoT can help us in the real world right?
Yes, and I was expressing my own opinion on that, which is ASoI&F/GoT is a fantasy, without any larger ‘message’ to us, helpful or otherwise. Or, as you put it, “Completely useless when it comes to real life issues.” It would seem we agree on this point.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
So you disagree with me, but you agree with me? That was quite the roundabout way of coming to an agreement, but I’ll take it 🙂
I said what I said to you because it seemed like you were disagreeing with me about Joe being wrong by dismissing everything as just a fantasy. Thanks for fleshing that statement out a bit more in your follow-up.
Mr Derp,
I had no problem with the scene itself, though I just thought it would have been more impactful if they set up Bran becoming king. They could have done more to present him as a leader of men. As it stands, though, Bran becoming king makes as much sense as anyone at the meeting. I have no doubt he would make a better king than all the other kings/queen who sat on the Iron Throne throughout the series, though the bar has been set incredibly low.
Tyrion did not handpick the king, he merely made a suggestion, and the other lords agreed. I’m not saying you’re one of these, but I find it odd that the same people who thought it didn’t make sense for Tyrion to nominate Bran while being a prisoner, also thought it was odd that Jon wasn’t nominated, despite him being a prisoner for a much more serious crime.
The Small Council before was made up of scheming opportunists and sycophants, so it’s not the same thing. From the final Small Council meeting, it seems that Bran was giving them a long leash and was allowing them to make policy decisions. When we left them, they were discussing where to allocate funds, so it seems that they will be running day to day operations.
Asked and answered many times over. The meeting was almost exclusively comprised of Stark family and friends who would have no problem accepting Bran as king. They had no reason to say no.
All the power players were gone. After all the destruction caused by these wars, it makes complete sense that the lords would want to move forward to a better future.
Accept humans will have a lot of say in how Westeros is run, via the Small Council. It’s too large to be run by one person. Bran becoming king in and of itself won’t bring peace, that’ll be up to many of the human lords and ladies as well. Also, Bran won’t be king forever. When he’s gone, it’ll be up to humans to decide who will lead them best in the future. The ending message isn’t as bleak as you think.
But did he even bother looking? Not that I saw.
Here’s a comparison: Hanging out with King Robert…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqV7DB8Iwg
vs.
Hanging out with King Bran the Broken:
https://flexiblebizteam.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/404-error-message-1.png
🤖
[Attempting re-post of 3:31 pm reply to Young Dragon]
Young Dragon wrote:
”Bran at least offered to find Drogon himself. That automatically makes him better than Robert.”
…………………
Reply:
But did he even bother looking? Not that I saw.
Here’s a comparison: Hanging out with King Robert…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqV7DB8Iwg
vs.
Hanging out with King Bran the Broken:
https://flexiblebizteam.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/404-error-message-1.png
🤖
Young Dragon,
I just thought it would have been more impactful if they set up Bran becoming king. They could have done more to present him as a leader of men.
Agreed, but as I’ve commented previously, that fault lies with the source material, at least to this reader. GRRM devotes many pages to Bran, but I’ve read nothing in those many pages which implies Bran will become any leader of men, let alone the most powerful man on Westeros.
Mr Derp,
The fact that Tyrion was able to nominate anyone at all is dumb. He went from being on trial for treason to hand-picking the next king of Westeros in one fell swoop.
Well, here in our real world, a meeting of delegates from the several states was convened in Philadelphia in 1787, to work out some details of their confederation. Entirely without prior authorization, this meeting somehow became a constitutional convention, the first ever, and produced the world’s first (and shortest!) written constitution. So these meetings may just naturally have a way of suffering from “scope creep.” 😉
This would be a more apt comparison if Benedict Arnold was the one who wrote, signed the Constitution, and became the first president of the United States.
They also didn’t need “authorization” in 1787. The war was already won. They did this to address the problems that existed under the Articles of Confederation. I might be misunderstanding you though.
If you haven’t seen George Carlin’s stand-up routine on “rights” you should. He talked about how every country has a different number of rights and how strange it is.
Okaaaay… not quite on topic, but I just saw the trailer for Maisie’s new series “Two Weeks to Live.” Maisie being a badass? I’m on board!
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
True, the books aren’t setting up Bran to be king either. Bran is a complicated character to write, given his storyline, so it is a difficult task. D&D did such a great job finishing everyone else’s story and fulfilling their character arcs after they ran out of source material, I wish they could have done the same with Bran.
Ten Bears,
One of the last things Bran said was that he would look for Drogon to track his movements.
Clob,
I saw the show is coming to HBO Max, and I’m excited to watch it! I wouldn’t be able to see it, otherwise.
Adrianacandle,
What about Bran instills faith in them that he’s going to do right by all of them?
Nothing, really. As I mentioned, they needed a monarch and they needed one immediately. Bran wasn’t anyone’s first candidate, but he had no opposition either. Anyone who doesn’t know of his powers would see little beyond a harmless, wheelchair-bound son of Ned Stark. So he has the right name, and also doesn’t appear to be a threat. (Consider what happened to several persons who got within weapon-reach of Joffrey…)
They’d endured years of painful, expensive warfare, ending with a foreign invader who’d torched their capital. No one wanted any more fighting. Sending Jon Snow back into the Night’s Watch didn’t make any sense on its face (“I am the watcher on what’s left of the wall, I am the sword in no darkness, I am the shield with nothing to block…”) except to solve the political problem of what to do with him, a sentence that would also look enough like a punishment to salve Grey Worm’s feelings of duty.
Tyrion offered them an easy option to solve all of their problems at once, and they took it. There’s really nothing more to it than that.
“But in analysing history do not be too profound, for often the causes are quite superficial.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
I appreciate your reasoning but while Bran may appear harmless, they don’t really have any reason to trust that Bran will do right by them instead of serving his family and region first (for all they know). I don’t think having the right name or being somebody’s son is enough is enough — especially when they’re supposed to be moving beyond that. This is what bothers me. Bran has spent his whole life in the North, is of only one house — like the rest of them. Meanwhile, the representative of the North, a fellow member of House Stark, and the council member who knows Bran best (Sansa) is the same representative who opts for independence of Bran’s rule. To the rest of the council, what makes Bran different? Is appearing harmless enough in the face of all other concerns they might have? They don’t know he’s the Three-Eyed Raven who has basically no familial loyalties any longer.
I don’t think it’s enough to overcome a desire for each region wanting to ensure their best interests will be represented and instead, actively choose somebody they don’t know and have no reason to trust. None (except for Sam, Arya, and Sansa) know Bran. Gendry’s only met zoned-out weird af Bran and has never had a conversation with the guy. And I’m still not sure why Dorne and the Iron Islands, especially, would agree to stay in the 6K under Bran instead of opting for independence themselves.
But then, maybe they were all just tired and wanted the fighting to stop.
Personally, I think solving that political problem of what to do with Jon (a queenslayer and oathbreaker) whose presence/freedom may cause war (between the ironborn/Unsullied vs. North and the Vale) does serve to have things make sense a bit more than… King Bran. If the purpose of sending Jon back to the Night’s Watch is to exile him from Westeros and prevent him from holding any Westerosi lands/titles (while the Night’s Watch has been used as a glorified penal colony/dumping ground for quite some time) as a compromise between two potentially warring factions (those who want Jon free vs. those who want Jon executed). But who knows? From a deleted line in the script, Tyrion speculates that winter may come again… 😉 But that’s going into total speculation.
However, back to Bran as king: I admit I truly don’t think we’re meant to thinking this deeply about it. I think this scene was intended to be much like you said: a progressive and peaceful move in a gradual elective direction with hope for a better world in which more people get a voice. I think that’s the idea. But I think the execution is shaky and lacking a solid foundation and development.
To add, I don’t think this is all on D&D. I’d put it on GRRM too. He still hasn’t finished the books and god only knows if he’s figured out the in-between stuff.
For whatever reason, D&D had to get to these points in a limited time frame from whatever reason on whatever info GRRM gave them (and for the record, I don’t think the shortened latter seasons were so D&D could get GoT over with so they could do Star Wars. I think the limited episode count in the final stretch was partially likely due to human factors: namely, the cast and crew have been working on this incredibly intense show which traveled worldwide for a decade and they’re going to want to stop at some point. I don’t think GRRM’s 13-season desire was all that feasible, the actors grow and change, people want to move on to different projects, GoT was a huge time, mental, and physical commitment, etc.)
Typo!
*For whatever reason, D&D had to get to these points in a limited time frame on whatever info GRRM gave them[…]
(Eliminated repeated point, also cut down three instances of ‘whatever’ to two!)
*is enough is enough to *is enough
*Bran has spent his whole life in the North, is of only one house — like the rest of them. (Clarification: by “like the rest of them”, I mean he’s of only one house, not that they’re all from the North ;D)
I’m really sucking tonight with my writing T___T
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I wanted to add a clarification to my October 28, 2020 at 9:42 pm response! When I referenced that Star Wars bit, that part of my comment wasn’t directed at you! 🙂 Re-reading the comment, I’m afraid that part might have come off as accusatory and out of the blue (especially when Star Wars hasn’t been mentioned before in this thread). I apologize if I gave that impression! It was just some general musings on my part!
As a bit of a compromise between us, I suppose I can accept the urgency of the situation (staving off a brewing war between the Unsullied and North) required an emergency monarch as I think we can go in circles about this forever 🙂 I think I can accept that. I just wish, for my part, there was a bit of a better justification for Bran’s election is all — particularly since it will apparently be a book thing.
I don’t think that’s all on D&D though. I think some (a lot) of it is on GRRM.
Also! I’m going to the dentist for the first time in 12 years tomorrow (well, in…. 9 hours!!) and every nerve I have ever possessed, currently possess, and will possess feels like they’re being electrocuted with the energy of a thousand suns with how nervous I am — so I’m down for a truce!
Ten Bears,
Sorry I’m off topic for this thread, but I was hoping that Ten bears and Adrianacandle may respond, and others are certainly welcome… At least this thread is about Arya/Maisie… I’m hoping Joe Dempsie would have another season of Deap State. I had no problems with Maisie’s scene. She was totally in control. I was more struck by her stone cold look after it was over when she throught about “Death” coming during the montage.
Our project we spoke about in the other thread was to have all of Arya’s many kills mashed up with Girls Just Wanna Have Fun…but I found this video from Aurora with her song “Running with the Wolves”… I fell in love with this video to use with the Arya footage… What do you think? I could do it all with this song, or I could mix in girls just wanna have fun in there too..but this mood is really fitting for Arya…I’ve downloaded all of the episodes needed to find all of the hi res clips… Here are the lyrics:
Go row the boat to safer grounds
But don’t you know we’re stronger now
My heart still beats and my skin still feels
My lungs still breathe, my mind still fears
But we’re running out of time (time)
For the echo’s in my mind, cry
There’s blood on your lies
Disguise opened wide
There is nowhere for you to hide
The hunter’s moon is shining
I’m running with the wolves tonight
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the wolves tonight
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the
Trick or treat, what would it be?
I walk alone, I’m everything
My ears can hear and my mouth can speak
My spirit talks, I know my soul believes
But we’re running out of time (time)
For the echo’s in my mind, cry
There’s blood on your lies
Disguise opened wide
There is nowhere for you to hide
The hunter’s moon is shining
I’m running with the wolves tonight
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the wolves tonight
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the wolves tonight
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the wolves tonight
I’m running with the wolves
It can cause betrayal it hurts
I can’t be dreaming
The night deceives us,
A million voices inside my dreams
My heart is left so incomplete
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the
I’m running with the
I’m running with the
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the wolves tonight
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the wolves tonight
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the wolves tonight
I’m running with the wolves
I’m running with the wolves tonight
I’m running with the wolves
Here’s Aurora’s video
Tron79,
oooh…it did have to do with this thread…the song starts with “go row the boat!”
No Gendry is not still rowing!
Young Dragon,
Isn’t King Bran one of the three plot points (along with Hold the Door and burning of Shireen) that GRRM revealed to the showrunners? The way these things happen may be different if those danged books ever get published.
Tron79,
I think that song is beautiful and would work really well for a video! As for mixing this song with ‘Girls Just Wanna Have Fun’, I think that’s a great idea and would give a really unique sound! But I (with my limited music knowledge) wouldn’t know how to do it in a way that flows well since each song is of such a different tempo. However, if you’re interested, I did a quick Google search that link to some tutorials and ideas on how to mix different bpms so if this is another area you want to explore (if you haven’t already) in your video creations! 😀
Ten Bears, I haven’t mastered how to insert pictures or photographs into a comment but thought I’d mention that on my current laptop Microsoft Edge is the default browser and this morning when I switched on my computer I got a picture of “A Path Through Sea Grapes at Blowing Rocks Preserve, Florida. I don’t know if the link will work but it made me think of the Dark Hedges path in N. Ireland through which Arya and Gendry travel with Yoren et al. https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Blowing+Rocks+Preserve%2c+Florida&form=wsbs01&filters=IsConversation:%22True%22+BTEPKey:%22Encyclo_823%22&trivia=1&first=1&scenario=ImageBasicHover
Continuation of comment to Ten Bears. Living as I do in the UK it’s sometimes easy to forget that Florida isn’t all retirees and Disney. (I’m not bashing retirees as I am one myself). My last full-time job before I retired was in a museum. Nothing exciting – entering specimens on a database. There was one collection where a number of items had been collected at Dry Tortugas. It’s unlikely I’ll ever venture over to Florida but if I did I’d like to see some of the more off the beaten track places.
Adrianacandle,
Yeah, i’m almost tempted to just use the wolves song because it’s so perfect with the mood… I could even switch back and forth with Aurora and Arya some…For me it’s not the differing tempos as much but the tone… Girls just wanna have fun will be a much lighter/sarcastic tone, where the wolves song is much more serious, and as a songwriter myself, I guess I’m attracted more to the darker and more serious tone because it fits more what Arya was going through..I’ll find Nymeria and include her in the video too…. But then, it’s not as fun for Ten Bears??? So maybe it can be both tones…..that’s a challenge to think about… Anyway, I have a couple days to ponder it…My real job is getting in the way for a few days, but then I can work more on this full time for awhile until it’s done… I did download the full episodes I needed for all of the kill scenes…Ten Bears had some other suggestions from other episodes… Maybe I can mix in the girls just wanna have fun for her laughing scenes at the vale and her campfire scene with Ed Sheeran and kissing Gendry! (which fits with this thread), but then switch to the more serious tone for her kills… uggg… Now I’m perplexed because I love the wolves song!!!… I also love the Yoren’s Willem story which got Arya started on her list, and I’m thinking of playing his scene…. I can already tell it’s not going to be that funny, sorry Ten Bears! I’m liking the darker tone…cuz that is more real about Arya’s journey… Ugg. I’m just not funny! I can’t help think about what Arya was going through….and the wolves song is a really nice fit…
Feel free to send other suggestions of things you find…
They talked about three “holy shit” points that GRRM revealed to them, but I have to assume he revealed much more than those three points. After all, they spent three days talking about what Martin had planned for the final books.
But yeah, Bran being king comes from GRRM.
In Hibberd’s book, GRRM also discusses the differences between the book and show version of “hold the door”. Also, it hints that Dany’s descent to madness is also one of the story points revealed by Martin in early 2013.
Hey, oierem! Just quickly because I’m not at home but would you be able to reference the page number/passage for this if you have time? I have the book but I probably missed this part and you’d be saving me a search later on! 🙂 Thank you either way!
Tron79,
Of course I’ll help where I can if you’d like (such as finding potential clips!) I’ll reply more thoroughly when I return home! Currently in dental hell 🦷 🔥
Adrianacandle,
I go to dental hell on Monday. Perhaps that is the 8th hell
It is. The scraping and blood won’t let you forget.
You’ll be in my thoughts come Monday 😢
Adrianacandle,
Sorry about the dental problem. I get 6 monthly reminders from my dentist (my teeth aren’t particularly wonderful; I had orthodontics as a kid and I’ve had some restoration work done).
Not to Adriana particularly but to all and sundry – if anyone knows Spanish or is a Spanish native speaker do they know any reasonable intermediate Spanish podcasts I could listen to. I can read Spanish averagely well (for my level – I couldn’t do degree level and probably not even A level). I have had a bash at listening to El Siete Reinos (I’ve probably spelled that incorrectly) where they have some readings from GoT the book in Spanish but my aural Spanish really isn’t very good. Someone suggested a ‘Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy’ Spanish podcast. I didn’t have the heart to say I was the odd person out who has never liked The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. Back in the day when I’d get in from a Friday night out it would sometimes be on the BBC radio …. years ago …and it was just never my kind of thing.
oierem,
Thanks for the excerpt! Yes, it’s possible they had known from the beginning (there are those Alan Taylor comments where he talks about how open GRRM was about some stuff with them while they were filming season 1 and I believe D&D met with GRRM when he was writing ADWD but he didn’t know yet where things would end up. However, they said one of the things GRRM knew was that Bran would be king.)
Still a lot of mystery surrounding stuff, I think, but thanks for the excerpt and page number!
Thanks, Dame! I too had braces as a kid for several years 🙁 So painful…
I’m also sorry that I can’t offer any assistance with Spanish. Throughout grade school, we were taught French but even my French is terrible 😞
Continuation from above … of course I haven’t been summoned to the dentist’s during the pandemic.
oierem, thanks for the information about the meeting between B&W and GRRM. Yes, it makes sense that he would have mentioned what was to happen to Dany. I can’t personally understand that they would write Dany’s decline just for the heck of it. Whether GRRM will cover that aspect of Dany’s arc in a way that is more palatable and feasible to a greater number of people than the show version I guess we’ll have to wait and see when and if those danged books are published…….
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I have to politely disagree with this. I think ASOIAF/GoT’s main theme was the corrosive effect of power on people who are able to get away with abusing it with impunity. The show depicted this in a number of areas — parental power, political power, military power and religious authority — but the fundamental theme was the same in all of them.
Even though the behaviours were often “dialled up to 11”, the psychological stuff portrayed was very realistic. It’s very recognisable for readers/viewers who have ever witnessed or experienced abusive behaviour in any of these areas in real life. And, of course, GRRM has based a lot of his saga on real-world global history, so there are numerous historical precedents too.
Whether someone has power on a massive scale or over just a handful of people they regard as subordinate, the effects can be devastating if that person is psychologically either unable or unwilling to restrain themselves from increasingly abusing that power. Even more so if the person is surrounded by enablers who support that toxic mindset. It’s also exactly what causes Narcissistic Personality Disorder (already a very nasty issue) to escalate to Malignant Narcissism.
The story’s “message”, as I see it, is to highlight the poisonous effect this has on people who develop these issues, the suffering it causes the person’s targets, and the ethical questions it raises about how to effectively deal with such people. The last point isn’t always a straightforward matter, as the story also demonstrated.
This is very interesting. Thank you for this quote. I personally never had doubts that Dany’s downfall comes from GRRM but I’m glad to see even more “firm” evidence. Makes real sense to mention S2 as a trajectory because that’s when Dany starts actively pursuing her desire to claim the throne and a lot of dialogue and scenes are show-only material there due to Dany’s reduced role in book 2. So it makes sense why there are several scenes where Dany’s behavior was… questionable to me regarding being a protagonist. Mainly her scenes at the gate “When my dragons are grown, we’ll lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground” and then her scene with Spice King “I”ll take what is mine! With fire and blood, I will take it!” I’m sure the writers already had some idea about Dany’s downfall at this point.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Feudalism, yes, but authoritarianism, no. Societies are still vulnerable to the latter in certain vulnerable conditions, as we’re seeing around the world today, including “strongmen” acting as de facto kings. It may not literally be a feudal political system, but the same hierarchical, authoritarianism-sympathising psychological factors are involved.
I’m not quite sure about this. I’m sure part of the series’ message revolves around power but rather than “ASOIAF/GoT’s main theme was the corrosive effect of power on people who are able to get away with abusing it with impunity,” I think it would be more about how people use their power — whether it be political, martial, parental, personal, or any kind of advantage one has (even things like Arya having the magic of the Faceless Men and her talent for assassination). And characters use their power in a variety of ways and sometimes, this can change and develop per character.
Every character in this series has issues, detriments, flaws, few are completely on the side of light (but there are some undoubtedly dark characters — Joffrey, Euron, Ramsay) and many of these characters are multi-faceted as well, facing internal struggles. But I don’t know how much GRRM is focusing on specific mental health disorders in his messaging (admittedly, I don’t know if I’d feel comfortable attributing real-life mental health disorders to these characters due to their complexity, need to be diagnosed/assessed by a medical doctor, and real-world impact on people who either suffer from these conditions themselves or have loved ones who do. Otherwise, it can lead to dangers resulting from armchair psychology. I’m not trying to lecture! But I am wary of diagnosing characters with real-world mental health conditions without the appropriate expertise).
I also think part of the series’ messages involves these different parts of ourselves and the war that wages between them: between different desires, the difficulty in doing the right thing even though it may come at personal costs and hardships, trying to figure out what that right thing even is and acknowledging it when it’s difficult to do/will cause pain. Between our better selves and our less better selves.
In particular, these quotes from GRRM:
And I quite like what GRRM says about even well-intentioned actions having consequences, which I think is also part of his themes. I believe this is illustrated when he is talking about Jon’s ADWD arc here:
Because (as you correctly point out), the tones of each song are so different, perhaps it would be a good idea to do two separate videos? Speaking of multi-faceted characters, Arya has different sides to her 😉 I think ‘Girls Just Want to Have Fun’ would suit a specific tone and side of Arya! (Like the examples you reference!) But I also think ‘Running With Wolves’ definitely suits Arya and the more somber sides to her, the pain and challenges she experiences throughout the series.
I’d think each video would be more coherent if you separated the two. What do you think?
Yeah, a lot of people criticised Dany’s season 2 arc, but rewatching it after knowning the ending it works MUCH better, in my opinion. Those scenes that you mention are good examples but there are more. Her scenes with Jorah (“I don’t need trust any longer… I don’t want it and I don’t have room for it), Xharo’s betrayal (“thank you for this lesson), the throne room vision…. all of them are clear set-ups of her destiny.
Yeah I agree. Time to storyboard!
Tron79,
”For me it’s not the differing tempos as much but the tone… Girls just wanna have fun will be a much lighter/sarcastic tone, where the wolves song is much more serious, and as a songwriter myself, I guess I’m attracted more to the darker and more serious tone because it fits more what Arya was going through…I’ll find Nymeria and include her in the video too…. But then, it’s not as fun for Ten Bears??? So maybe it can be both tones…..that’s a challenge to think about… Anyway, I have a couple days to ponder it…My real job is getting in the way for a few days, but then I can work more on this full time for awhile until it’s done… I did download the full episodes I needed for all of the kill scenes…Ten Bears had some other suggestions from other episodes… Maybe I can mix in the girls just wanna have fun for her laughing scenes at the vale and her campfire scene with Ed Sheeran and kissing Gendry! (which fits with this thread), but then switch to the more serious tone for her kills… uggg… Now I’m perplexed because I love the wolves song!!!… I also love the Yoren’s Willem story which got Arya started on her list, and I’m thinking of playing his scene…. I can already tell it’s not going to be that funny, sorry Ten Bears! I’m liking the darker tone…
• I understand what you mean about using fun, upbeat songs in a “sarcastic” manner as a soundtrack for montages of Arya dispensing justice* in her inimitable fashion, i.e., with bad guys’ arterial spray, dripping faces, and gurgling.
It’s that contrast that I (personally) thought made songs like “Girls Just Want to Have Fun” inappropriately appropriate. (Am I warped?)
* Incidentally, I thought a brief clip of Sansa parroting back LF’s line, “there is no justice in this world unless we make it” in S7e7 would make a nice prelude to Arya meting out justice to deserving sh*tbags like MFT, Walder Frey, and LF himself.
• I will post links to a few other “inappropriately appropriate” light-hearted songs, though some have already been used for that purpose in other shows and movies.
For example, “Walking on Sunshine” by Katrina & The Waves played in the background in a scene in “American Psycho,” though most remember it for the fun dancing scene between John Travolta and the toddler Mikey (voice of Bruce Willis) in the comedy “Look Who’s Talking.”
Then there was “Stuck in the Middle with You” by Stealer’s Wheel that Michael Madsen’s character was dancing to in that grisly scene in Quentin Tarantino’s “Reservoir Dogs.” 👂
• An example of a more somber song for a serial violence montage was the piano interlude from “Layla” by Derek & The Dominos, which accompanied the montage of the post-heist elimination of loose-lipped co-conspirators and other witnesses in “Goodfellas.”
• Like you, my “[r]eal job is getting in the way for a few days, but then I can work more on this” for a while.
• I appreciate your willingness to tackle this project. If I had the technical know-how I’d try to give it a go myself. (Maybe I can propose a sequencing of scenes to match up with songs or portions of songs?)
Anyway, there’s no urgency. Like my proposed 2021 GoT desk calendar, this ought to be a fun little leisure time side project.
to be cont….
If you ever have the interest, editing and cutting together videos isn’t as intimidating as it seems (though it can certainly be time consuming and be as complex as you’re willing to go! But it can also be simple too!) I think you use Windows? If so, here is a list of free video editing programs if it’s ever something you want to pursue 🙂
Tron79,
Oh, I just saw this exchange between the two of you.
“Storyboarding” was probably what I was referring to be “sequencing.”
Now I’ve got to find and listen to “Running with Wolves.” I don’t think I’m familiar with that song.
[“Running with the Pack” by Bad Company, “Run Through the Jungle” by Creedence Clearwater Revival, and “Werewolves of London” by Warren Zevon, I have heard…]
I definitely want to learn how to do video editing! Thanks for the listing of programs.
First I’ve got to teach myself how to do bookmarks and hyperlinks in documents, not to mention page re-numbering, indenting, and dot leaders in Word. 🤬
Have you ever heard of Lynda.com tutorials? They’re video tutorials with exercise files you can follow along with and I’ve found them quite useful when learning Fusion 360 or another program I need to pick up! Your local library may offer access to Lynda for free (I know the Calgary library does for cardholders!) I’m not sure if this is much help though D:
Tron79,
”Sorry I’m off topic for this thread…”
Arya is never off-topic. 🙂
(Now lemme go watch the embedded video of “Running with Wolves.”)
Tron79,
I was briefly considering this song to accompany Arya’s run through Dany’s Inferno in King’s Landing…
“Hot Child in the City” – Nick Gilder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5pdddVmPr8
… but beyond the first few verses (below) it doesn’t quite fit:
🎶”Danger in the shape of something wild
Stranger, dressed in black she’s a hungry child
No one knows who she is or what her name is
I don’t know where she came from
or what her game is
Hot child in the city
Hot child in the city
Runnin’ wild and lookin’ pretty
Hot child in the city.”🎶
Adrianacandle,
Interesting quote from Big G:
“A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what I’m aiming at.”
Hmmm. Maybe my ultra-heavy duty tinfoil theory isn’t so far-fetched after all… More on that some other time, though his quote would relate, at least tangentially, to the proposition that there never was a first “Long Night” – that story was self-serving propaganda, or the remnants of an account that once might have had a historical basis but became so embellished over the millennia that it no longer resembled what really happened.
🧑🏻🚀
Jai,
Adrianacandle,
I feel both these comments articulate very well some of GoT’s core themes. As with all epic tales, a number of the “messages” communicated in ASOIAF can be experienced as central depending on the angle we take, and Jai’s description of the psychological theme of the corrosive effect of unrestrained power being at the heart of this drama is an excellent one. And indeed, since any story influences us (mostly subconsciously) this fantasy drama can have value and “use” for us in our lives since this theme of abuse of power is always all around us.
And I’d say Adriana’s right too about the story really being about how the characters struggle with/against/under – and choose to exercise – power, however little or great, whether their own or someone else’s, or that of their culture, in the context of this central human predicament that power without perspective leads to horror. That is, power exercised solely from one’s own point of view; that without external or internal checks to our biases we become selfish and violent toward others – and usually we don’t see that for what it is.
This may be the main reason I loved the meaning implied by the crowning of Bran. Yes, he is a magical character. But so in a way is Jon (raised from the dead) and certainly Daenerys (immune to fire, dragon blood in the veins). Would it have been dispiriting if either Jon or Dany – or both – ended up on the throne for the same reason that they are not fully human? In a story like this I don’t feel it matters. Characters represent aspects of ourselves, and their struggles inform us about challenges of our own. Bran is a human who through his journey in this story has overcome his self-centeredness, both in his desires and his perspective: he doesn’t have wants and he sees through everyone’s eyes. Never mind that “magic” has been involved in his transformation. Human Bran may have “died” in that cave but death in ASOIF is often enough a symbol of character transformation. As a symbol for a solution to the humans-tend-to-abuse-power dilemma described above – an example that one can aspire to emulate (though maybe never completely achieve) – I see the crowning of Bran the Broken as a positive image, one of a healthy psychological outcome for the “realm”.
It struck me that Tyrion (at least in the show), whom I often felt to be the viewers’ surrogate, was at heart engaged all along in trying to understand and heal this human problem of selfishness and violence. I always felt one of the most important scenes in GoT was his jail cell conversation with Jaimie where he revealed this central interest of his via the memory of his beetle-crushing cousin. Keunk! Keunk! Keunk! … Why did he do it? What’s it all about? … In other words, why do we humans use our power to crush others when we don’t have to? And here he was being crushed by his own father for no good reason. Throughout the whole story Tyrion is motivated by this question, makes terrible mistakes through cynicism and then through faith, and at the last ends up in a position to try to fight the good fight (in GRRM’s words as quoted by Adriana) humbled by his earned wisdom in these matters.
I loved the final episode, though wished the Dragonpit scene had a tad more showing or telling rather than implying regarding its context. But even as is it would have worked marvellously for me had they retained a part of the script that was apparently cut. I’d love to know why, because it brings more clearly full circle this message of Tyrion’s ultimately successful quest to find someone who will not mindlessly crush beetles just because he can – and one who can remember the lessons of history’s repetitive follies – and to support them in ruling the realm:
1. ASNAWP is always on topic.
2. As much as I loathe self-congratulation, I’ve been saying for months that HBO or some streaming platform picking up “Two Weeks to Live” to air in the U.S. was a no-brainer. Glad to know that pandemic-weary Arya/MW fans in the U.S. can now see her again.
3. I’ve seen 5 of the 6 episodes already when they were posted on YouTube last month.
While I have HBO, I do not have “HBO Max.” Does that mean I’d have to sign up for HBO Max – and pay more $ – to see “Two Weeks to Live”?
No worries though. I’m sure it will be on “regular” HBO before long.
🔫🔫👸🏻
Yes, I agree with this. I think I remember the criticism of S2 that Dany was too “immature” and too “confrontational” and that that’s not who her character is supposed to be. But now knowing where her story ends, I really feel S2 foreshadows her darker side well. As I said above, this is the season where we first explicitly see her pursue the Throne itself. And it’s interesting because in S1, she was more of a contrast to this “pursue of the Throne” and her story focused on being nice to people, such as saving Mirri and defending Doreah from Viserys and such. And her “empowered” moment at the end of the season was again more about her caring for people… how anyone who would dare to hurt them will die screaming. But as we enter S2, the desire to conquer the Throne starts to become her priority. She feels entitled to it…”The Iron Throne is mine and I WILL take it” … “It’s mine by right”… “My birthright”. This is where the shift happens in my eyes, regarding showing her darker side and I think her second scene with Spice King shows one important part… she doesn’t take no for an answer. While I think she had right to be angry in first scene when they didn’t want to let her in (because otherwise they would starve to death), I think her enraged response in the scene where Spice King didn’t want to lend her ships was definitely an alarming sign and a bit of a contrast to what we’ve seen from her in S1. Spice King was annoying but I think he had every right to decline making an investment.
Then in S3, we again have a switch for her story to “helping people” again as she wishes to liberate slaves and as slavery is universally a bad thing, it’s easier to cheer for her and forget about her not taking no for an answer. And of course for some time, her active desire to pursue the throne is put on hold so her dark impulses are mostly related to slavers a.k.a “the evil guys”. But even here we get some questionable scenes in following seasons… “I’ll answer injustice with JUSTICE” (a.k.a eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth) and then her scene with Hizdahr regarding his father and feeding that nobleman to the dragons… I remember that a lot of time, I asked myself if I’m watching something wrong because I wasn’t”rooting” for her to reclaim the Throne. I was very much rooting for personal growth and becoming a strong female character, but I wasn’t rooting for her conquering the Throne and I think her strong entitlement to it was what was putting me off, one of the reasons at least. Of course, the further the story proceeded and as Meereen story started to wrap up, the more prominent became her desire to conquer the Iron Throne… it now became her ultimate goal and now as she wasn’t facing “evil slavers” anymore post-S6, but characters we know, I think her dark side started to become more and more prominent again and yes, scenes from S2 started to make way more sense.
Tron79,
Here are two “upbeat” (fluffy) songs/possible “sarcastic” soundtracks to an Arya montage:
• “Afternoon Delight” (1976) – Starland Vocal Band (3:02 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu1UXCdyNo0
Alternatively, because of the not-so-subtle double entendre of “afternoon delight,” this could
accompany Arya & Gendry’s “coupling” scene(s), starting with her scoping out his bare-chested torso in Harrenhal, leading into their S8e1 reunion and flirtation and S8e2 inquisition/seduction scene.
Personally, I think it’d be a good (sarcastic) soundtrack for a Frey extermination montage.
• “Walking on Sunshine” (1983?)
Katrina & The Waves
3:59 long (audio only)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKh0dLIuIu8
As I noted already, this song was used in “Look Who’s Talking” – and “American Psycho.”
P.S. I included YouTube links to the songs with the best audio quality I could find. For some reason the volume in the “official” music videos was rather faint.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I totally agree with that (btw, I’m a fellow Lost fan!)
I never wanted Dany to become evil, and I wanted a happy ending for her… but now looking back I can’t belive how blind I was to all those alarm bells ringing from the very first season to the last. Even though I didn’t expect it (or want it), her story makes total sense in my opinion. And I believe it’s the best and most brutal twist the show ever pulled off .
Thanks for your thoughts 🙂
It’s not so much I have an objection to magic being part of a character’s transformation, magic is involved/impacts many characters. It’s just that Bran is no longer really subject to the same human pitfalls other human characters are (like Dany, Jon, and Arya — three other magical characters) and in that way, I agree with Alt Shift X when he said:
___
I think this might be more applicable to the show but I’m not so sure in the books. Tyrion becomes incredibly dark in book 5. It remains to be seen if he stays in that position, if he ever does want to fight the “good fight” or if he is ever humbled by his experiences.
Once, GRRM referred to Tyrion as a “villain” in an Amazon interview:
But again, he may have been referring to where Tyrion ends up in book 5. Perhaps Tyrion does return to the side of light as the books progress beyond this point. It’s hard to say. Well, I find it hard to say how much of this unravels in the books vs the show if we ever find out how 🙂
Northern Breeze,
”I always felt one of the most important scenes in GoT was his jail cell conversation with Jaimie where he revealed this central interest of his via the memory of his beetle-crushing cousin. Keunk! Keunk! Keunk! … Why did he do it? What’s it all about? … In other words, why do we humans use our power to crush others when we don’t have to?…”
Thank you for mentioning this scene. I’ve always felt it got a lot of undeserved flak. It started out kind of lighthearted, with Tyrion and Jaime reminiscing about their shared experience with their brain-damaged, beetle-crushing obsessed Cousin Orson, but morphed into Tyrion’s profound frustration with his inability to comprehend why Orson was so fixated on annihilating a race of innocent creatures, to the point that Tyrion had nightmares about mountains of beetle husks.
While I did not make the connection to Tywin’s desire to get rid of Tyrion, I felt Tyrion was trying to make sense out of humans’ innate or primitive urges to destroy other living beings. There had to be some reason behind it; despite his research and first-hand observations, young Tyrion could not figure out what that reason was.
I’m not so sure adult Tyrion ever could either. He was decidedly unhappy when he witnessed the mass devastation at the Field of Fire 2.0 in S7e4, and even more so while walking, stunned, in the streets of KL in the aftermath of Dany’s Inferno.
(I’ll give him a pass on blowing up Stannis’s fleet with the wildfire ghost ship in the Battle of the Blackwater. He had no choice…)
I do think there was a first Long Night (all regions and areas of Planeteos recount the same or similar darkness event) but it may be true that the true details perhaps have been lost to history. I always thought GRRM’s quote may hint that there is more to the Others than it appears. To them, perhaps they are the heroes while humanity is the enemy and a plague on the world. While to humanity, those fighting against the Others to save humankind are the heroes where the Others are the enemy with their intent to end all of humankind.
I never minded this scene either and this is a nice analysis. Although, I believe this is a show-only scene. There is an Orson Stone though in ASOIAF — but he’s not a mentally compromised Lannister cousin who unnecessarily smashes beetles, he’s a sellsword and ex-knight 🙂
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Very good synopsis! Thank you, M’Lord!
In retrospect, perhaps the show could have downplayed the “Gods flip a coin” inherited Targ madness gene angle.
Attributing Dany’s rampage to a psychotic break, i.e., the triggering of a hereditary mental illness, arguably detracted from the “she was really like this all along” twist. If she had become delusional because of a genetic predisposition, then it kind of absolved her from blame, didn’t it?
(Weiss’ odd commentary that seeing the Red Keep, a “symbol” of what had been taken from her, was what triggered her aerial road rage, was difficult for me to reconcile with either the Targ 50% gene explanation or the fire & blood/birthright entitlement* explanation.)
I prefer your focusing in on Dany’s angry “I will take what is mine by fire and blood!” attitude, e.g., her reaction to that spice merchant (?) who didn’t want to sell or give her ships.
*(A similar sense of pre-destination did in Stannis, though Mel’s mistaken conviction of his divine right as the Lord’s Chosen and her goading played a large part in leading him to his doom…)
Adrianacandle,
Sure. My perspective on that quote from Alt Shift X reminds me of what Joseph Campbell said to Bill Moyers at one point in their famous PBS interviews in trying to understand Bible literalists, that they are mistaking the denotation for the connotation. In other words, looking at it literally rather than figuratively when it comes to meaning and message.
The way I see it, Bran being king doesn’t suggest the solution to human evil is not being human (that would be to take it literally); rather it suggests that the solution rests in freeing ourselves from its causes: unrestrained desire and self interest; and a lack of self awareness, historical perspective and compassion (admittedly, Bran’s compassion is somewhat unclear; thus my preference for the pill bug inclusion). Tyrion now aspires to these, and is chosen to manage the ruling of the realm accordingly. I don’t think the message is “we humans can’t accomplish this so we need the inhuman”. Notwithstanding the denotation of his evolution in the story (human Bran became the god-like Three-Eyed Raven), the connotative message is that Bran was human and able through his journey to evolve into a solution to the struggle with evil.
On the second point about book vs. show Tyrion I agree. I was referring to show Tyrion.
Yes, Dany’s story is as much dark as it’s also sad because at the end, it’s her own ambition that was a major cause for her downfall. There’s this saying in my native language “Kdor visoko leta, nizko pade”… no idea if there’s an english counterpart but it would roughly translate as “The one who flies high, falls low”. And when looking at Dany’s story and her eventual downfall, I think there are two sides needed to be acknowledged in order to accept her dark turn. One is obviously the matter of circumstances which pushed her to her extreme… losing her advisors, two dragons, Jon rejecting her, Varys conspiring and such. This is something that is not hard to deny I feel. But the other side to accept is in my opinion also that Dany was more “messed up” than we audience dared to believe and I believe this side is harder to “stomach”. I personally don’t even mean “messed up” as being “too far gone”… I don’t think she was for majority of the show and I believe she did have a chance for a happy ending if she made different decisions. And that’s what makes her story sad… she pretty much found her happy ending at the end of S6 by restoring peace in Slaver’s Bay without unnecessary violence. If she never left Meereen, I imagine she would have had her “dream life” there. But it was her ambition that drove her to Westeros and now, I think that’s when her downfall unofficially begins… because in my opinion, her ambition was already “too big” to begin with and the basis for it was her belief that she has “divine right to rule”. SHe accomplished something magnificent for humanity in Slaver’s Bay and yet it wasn’t “enough” for her and I would say that her departure to Westeros eventually established that her desire for the Throne is bigger than her desire to help people and thus with her not taking no for an answer, the root for her downfall was set. She could have had her happy ending, even after Long Night I imagine. But her ambition got the best out of her and we as audience shut our eyes from that because it was “hard to stomach”. In some way, I feel we became like the people she liberated… who had this unconditional loyalty to her but eventually when we were put in situation where people opposing her were not evil slavers anymore, but people we know, our “unconditional loyalty” was tested and thus the “polarization” of responses began. A brutal twist for sure, but in my opinion, a fascinating one.
Adrianacandle,
Right! I recall book readers pointing out that Cousin Orson the beetle-crusher was a show-only creation, along with criticism by both show and book fans that the scene went on too long and wasn’t very interesting.
It worked for me. While I’ve goofed on Cousin Orson from time to time, e.g., in the context of comparing him to mentally disabled modern-day politician(s), I thought Tyrion’s speech as delivered by Peter Dinklage was quite effective, especially the second part of it when he expressed his frustration with his inability to make sense of Orson’s behavior: Tyrion knew it wasn’t mindless; there was something going on in Orson’s head but he could not figure out what it was. (I’d have to retrieve the exact dialogue. I thought it was well-written.)
Ten Bears,
Yes indeed.
Well, my comment about this would be not all people are unable to restrain their desire and self interest, nor do all lack of self awareness, historical perspective and compassion (if that’s what you mean!) However, these same people are subject to human fault, emotion, conflict, and error, even the best of us — yet Bran isn’t because Bran is free of bias, previous loyalties, personal agenda, emotion, etc. because he has become the Three-Eyed Raven. He won’t experience that same inner struggle or conflict, he’s not subject to that same error. He can operate like a computer, fact-checking what is brought to him and making decisions without bias.
Like with the bug, Bran had no reason to squish the pill bug (no hatred, fear, love, etc.) and had no reason not to let it continue on its way because it didn’t matter either way. So what’s the use in killing it? So I don’t know if that’s so much about compassion than… it is letting this bug live because it poses no consequence?
I’d feel Bran developed into something beyond human. He doesn’t really feel or struggle with human emotion any longer — and is that the solution to the struggle against evil?
While I thought the dialogue was a bit odd, I thought Dinklage’s performance was on point!
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
• Ah, well done my Lord. You’ve reconciled the several contributing causes of Dany’s meltdown.
Without her genetic predisposition, her self-entitled attitude, the series of backfiring “clever plans,” and the personal losses and estrangement she suffered one right after the other, perhaps she would have retained her “gentle heart” and become a kind and benevolent ruler.
• ”There’s this saying in my native language “Kdor visoko leta, nizko pade”… no idea if there’s an english counterpart but it would roughly translate as “The one who flies high, falls low”.
Forgive me if my memory of Greek myths is faulty: Does that saying have anything to do with the story of Icarus?
Didn’t he fly too high in his attempt to be like a god, and fell to earth when he got too close to the sun and it melted the wax-and-feathers wings he’d made?
I’ll have to brush up on my Greek mythology…
Fair points, all. On this I would say that’s the point: that “ because Bran is free of bias, previous loyalties, personal agenda, emotion, etc.”, therefore “He won’t experience that same inner struggle or conflict.”. And that is something to which any flawed person can aspire and learn to do to some degree – and to the degree they succeed, learn to free their motivations from that which drives evil in the human heart.
Not necessarily, you’re right. But in the context of the story as told by the show, it directly references Tyrion’s existential Orson questions (which Ten Bears articulated so well), so for this scene, yes, for me it would have symbolised at least a form of compassion.
Great question. Again, in terms of the literal story I agree that he is now something beyond human (a cipher for the Old Gods, perhaps). But in terms of message, the ability to have awareness and perspective and to not be swayed by emotion or compelled by self interest, is something we humans can develop and achieve to some degree, and to the extent we can we offer that amount of hope for a more peaceful future. Bran as king is a story development that seems to me to send that message. The character at the end can be seen to be an iconic symbol of the power of awareness and nonviolence, and the story ends with the importance of placing that at the center of the Realm (the Mind, or Heart).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5jenMdQNW8
“You let him go in the sun?!”
Here’s an excerpt of the dialogue from the Tyrion & Jaime scene in S4e8 when they start talking about Cousin Orson and crushing beetles.
The portion of Tyrion’s speech I was referring to starts with:
“And as I watched, I became more and more sure of it. There was something happening there. His face was like the page of a book written in a language I didn’t understand. But he wasn’t mindless. He had his reasons….”
Yeah, the dialogue preceding this (most of which I’ve omitted) was a bit wonky. Tyrion’s/Dinklage’s demeanor changed* when he stopped joking about Orson crushing the beetles, and said to Jaime: “I had to know [why], because it was horrible that all these beetles should be dying for no reason.”
*Then again, that’s how I remember Dinklage’s acting and his delivery of the dialogue.
————-
(Tyrion and Jaime, S4e8)
***
T: “Do you remember cousin Orson? Orson Lannister?”
J: “Of course. Wet-nurse dropped him on his head. Left him simple.”
T: “Simple? Used to sit all day in the garden. Crushing beetles with a rock.”
(“Khunk! Khunk! Khunk!”)
T: “Nothing made him happier.”
J: “Nothing made you happier. You’d think being tormented from birth would have given you some affinity for the afflicted.”
T: “On the contrary. Laughing at another person’s misery was the only thing that made me feel like everyone else.”
J: “The joke wore thin, though.”
T: “For you. You drifted away.”
J: “I had other interests.”
T: “Yes, other interests. But I stayed with Orson.”
J: “Why?”
T: “I was curious. Why was he smashing all those beetles? What did he get out of it? First thing I did was ask him. “Orson, why are you smashing all those beetles?” He gave me an answer. “Smash the beetles. Smash ’em. Khunk! Khunk! Khunk!” I wasn’t deterred. I was the smartest person I knew. Certainly I had the wherewithal to unravel the mysteries that lay at the heart of a moron. So I went to Maester Volarik’s library.
J: “Volarik. Tried to touch me once.”
T: “Turns out, far too much has been written about great men and not nearly enough about morons. Doesn’t seem right. In any case, I found nothing that illuminated the nature of Orson’s affliction or the reason behind his relentless beetle slaughter. So I went back to the source. I may not have been able to speak with Orson, but I could observe him, watch him the way men watch animals to come to a deeper understanding of their behavior.”
(Tyrion picks up a beetle)
“And as I watched, I became more and more sure of it. There was something happening there. His face was like the page of a book written in a language I didn’t understand. But he wasn’t mindless. He had his reasons. And I became possessed with knowing what they were. I began to spend inordinate amounts of time watching him. I would eat my lunch in the garden, chewing my mutton to the music of “khunk, khunk, khunk.” And when I wasn’t watching him, I was thinking about him. Father droned on about the family legacy and I thought about Orson’s beetles. I read the histories of Targaryen conquests. Did I hear dragon wings? No. I heard “khunk, khunk, khunk” and I still couldn’t figure out why he was doing it. And I had to know, because it was horrible that all these beetles should be dying for no reason.”
J: “Every day around the world, men, women, and children are murdered by the score. Who gives a dusty f*ck about a bunch of beetles?”
T: “I know, I know. But still, it filled me with dread. Piles and piles of them, years and years of them. How many countless living crawling things smashed and dried out and returned to the dirt? In my dreams I found myself standing on a beach made of beetle husks stretching as far as the eye could see. I woke up crying, weeping for their shattered little bodies. I tried to stop Orson once.”
J: “He was twice your size.”
T: “He just pushed me aside with a “khunk” and kept on smashing. Every day until that mule kicked him in the chest and killed him.”
(Tyrion places the beetle back on the ground, unharmed)
“So what do you think? Why did he do it? What was it all about?”
J: “I don’t know.”
Northern Breeze,
Aspire to and grow, recognizing our own flaws and biases? Yep! And I think that’s the struggle. So many of us, in our attempts to be fair, impartial, and in our efforts to free ourselves from biases, more selfish motivations/desires, impact of past experiences, emotional influences, etc. do aspire to the neutrality Bran represents. But I’m not sure it’s possible for a human being to truly become this or become what Bran has become. We’ll always be subject to temptation, emotion, emotional biases, love and hate, forms of biases and prejudices, and human error.
And in that way, I think Alt Shift X is right because Bran isn’t really human anymore.
He may represent the best chance for a better future because he’s free of all these human pitfalls — but he’s not really human anymore.
I actually signed up for “MAX” so I could watch a really cool sci fi original HBO MAX series: “Raised by Wolves” (no this isn’t about Arya, sorry).. It’s a pain to use HBO MAX since it doesn’t work on Roku or most other devices, but you can watch from your laptop or mobile device… I had to get an Apple AV HDMI adapter to plug my iphone into my TV. Mirroring from iphone was also blocked by HBO MAX, but that one adapter did work…
I interpreted his performance in the same way, his demeanor did seem to change at that point.
(Incidentally, this made me feel a bit guilty about teenaged-me killing a large beetle who crawled into my basement bedroom with shaving cream, silly string, and…. scissors…. amidst my screams. Yikes.)
Ooooh, have you started yet?
Also, HDM is about to start soon! There’s another trailer!
Northern Breeze,
Bran is a cold-hearted weirdo. Look at the way he mistreated poor Meera: That courageous woman saved his ass and dragged it all the way back from the 3ER cave to Castle Black, and he blew her off in S7e4 with the lame excuse “I’m not Brandon Stark anymore.” Well, f*ck off, Evil Bran.
He has no empathy, no compassion, no regard for the welfare of his family or anyone else. When it came down to it, he said he traveled all the way to KL because he kind of knew he’d be named king.
He showed zero interest in the working of his Small Council or the rebuilding of the realm. By all indications he will be yet another hands-off, disinterested king, except without the drinking, whoring, or other fun hobbies.
Speaking only for myself, I would not want a robotic android as a leader. If elections for king were held, I’d vote for Hot Pie the humanist over Not-Bran nka 3ER 2.0.
(Tensor… Rebuttal? 🤓)
#HotPie2020
“Build Back Better”
Adrianacandle,
Okay, is this what’s called synchronicity?
Right around the time you were posting that clip from Arrested Development at 8:06 pm, I had switched over to YouTube and was looking at the recommendations under the video clip of “Afternoon Delight” I posted in my 6:08 comment, and clicked on this scene from… Arrested Development.
Adrianacandle,
I’m counting the days until HDM season 2… That’s one of the reasons I went ahead and signed up for HBO MAX, cuz I knew I had to restart my HBO subscription to watch HDM. But only MAX has Raised by Wolves. Here’s my IMDB review:
https://www.imdb.com/review/rw6202430/?ref_=tt_urv
There are a few parallels with HDM since Raised by Wolves had major religious themes too. I mostly whinge about my frustrating HBO MAX watching experience, but I did get it all out!
Adrianacandle,
Fair enough. Again, for me it’s about the connotation vs. denotation. The symbolic representation of a solution to evil we can indeed cultivate if not completely forever achieve is a positive message it seems to me rather than a depressing one.
Ten Bears,
Well, I disagree. That scene with Meera (and the previous ones with Sansa) to me showed Bran as slowly learning through making those mistakes, how to relate in a more compassionate way now that he was no longer only Bran. By Season 8 he was getting gradually better. I remember I made a response to someone last year which I’ll search for and copy below FWIW. But with feeling like that, I don’t expect to change your mind about my boy :-).
Found it:
Ten Bears,
Oh, god, that clip makes me die!! I can’t stop laughing whenever I watch it! And I’ve watched Arrested Development too many times…
“No no no, it will look worse — go that way!”
(And yes, I think we did experience a cross-continental synchronicity!)
Speaking of Arrested Development, I recently found the Music of Arrested Development on YouTube:
I love how all of this music is original — including Balls in the Air, Big Yellow Joint, and What Could Be Better (top comment: I CAN’T GO BACK THERE, MICHAEL! IT’S A HELL HOLE)
😂😂😂😂😂
Ten Bears,
Awaiting moderation … we’ll see if my response comes through.
Tron79,
Oh, thanks for the link!!! (And I’m also counting the days to HDM S2! I am so excited — and I’m also excited because you’ve read the books too! So we can discuss book stuff as well!)
Alright, a fair interpretation and take-away 🙂 While I don’t think humans can reach Bran’s level of computer-like neutrality (but can strive for it), I think the message of this scene wasn’t meant to be depressing. So I think your interpretation aligns with the writers’ intentions. As I said to Tensor above, I think hope for the future was the intended message 🙂
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”Tyrion’s “the best story” line was a rhetorical gimmick, because his use of plain language would have been impolitic. Bran was the only candidate everyone would accept (or, more accurately, the only candidate anyone would not immediately reject). Everyone also knew leaving the meeting without a chosen king would put Westeros back where it was at the start of the War of the Five Kings, only with Dothraki riding around as well. So, they had to choose right then and there, and Tyrion gently gave them a face-saving way of making the only real choice they had.”
• What do you mean that Tyrion’s “best story” line was a “rhetorical gimmick,” and that his use of plain language would have been “impolitic”?
I am not being snide or disputing what you wrote. I am just not sure I understand what you are stating.
• Why do you say that “Bran was the only candidate everyone would accept (or, more accurately, the only candidate anyone would not immediately reject)”?
He was a cipher – a wild card to almost everyone there. (Or were we supposed to assume that The Adventures of Bran Beyond the Wall and Back Again were now common knowledge?)
Wasn’t there another candidate right there whom everybody in attendance would heartily accept and certainly would not reject? Someone with the right last name? I don’t know, maybe an egalitarian beloved by nobility and commonfolk alike? Someone who had … saved the world? Someone with an impressive story (starting with, as Tyrion had described it) disappearing from King’s Landing in a puff of smoke, traveling throughout the hostile continent incognito, training overseas for two years, and then enforcing the laws against evildoers upon returning?
Tyrion could’ve nominated that candidate with a much better story than Bran’s, and the reaction would have been:
Davos: “Aye. I watched her in action. Awesome.”
Brienne: “Definite Aye. She rules!”
Sansa: “The strongest person I know. A little strange and annoying at times, but two big thumbs up! Aye!”
Yara: “Aye. Just keep her away from me.”
Sam: “Jon’s favorite little sister? That makes her my sister too. Plus, my sweetheart, my kid and I would have been zombies but for the Hero of Wintrfell. Aye!”
Robyn: “My cousin? Sure. Family, duty, honor. And she avenged my parents’ murders and my aunt’s murder. The Vale votes Aye.”
Unnamed Dorne guy: “Aye.”
Bran: “____ “
Tyrion: “Bran! Hello?”
Bran. “Wait…wut? Where am I? Chaos is a ladder. The things we do for love. Not today. You know nothing Jon Snow…”
Off-screen voice: “Can someone reboot him?”
Edmure: “Who do you think freed me from the Freys’ dungeon? Aye.”
Gendry: “Saved my life. Many times. A thousand times Aye.” ❤️
Nobody would have any reservations about accepting this candidate. Nobody would have any reason to reject this candidate.
Northern Breeze,
”Bran may have his world’s version of wisdom but his compassion is unclear, and he certainly needs to work on his warmth.”
Hard pass on Bird Boy. Taking on a work in progress, i.e., hoping someone will grow into the job, is a risky bet.
She… is my Queen:
https://i.redd.it/7izfhx8obmw01.jpg
I’ll check back and look for it.
Ten Bears,
8:52 p.m.
Northern Breeze,
Oh, I think I replied to your 8:52 pm comment already, i.e., your comment from a previous occasion you cut and pasted into it, in which you stated, in part:
”Bran may have his world’s version of wisdom but his compassion is unclear, and he certainly needs to work on his warmth.”
Yeah, at 10:18 pm, I replied.
I’ll throw in the towel as far as any further argument about Bran’s qualifications to be king. It takes a lot of extrapolation and assumptions either way to assess the likelihood of success of an emotionally discombobulated half human half alien hybrid. For me, there wasn’t enough to show that Bran would be a wise or effective ruler.
Part of what disappointed me was that for all the
urgency about Bran reaching and learning from the 3ER; the sacrifices others made to keep him alive because of his supposed importance; and the (apparent) foreshadowing of the importance of his magical powers to defeat the Army of the Dead; when it came down to it all he did was sit in a clearing and warg into birdies.
A visual representation of his relative input into the war effort:
D5oyBKJXkAAjqzw.png 810×450 pixels
Ten Bears,
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5oyBKJXkAAjqzw.png
(Attempt to re-post link to image in 12:13 am comment)
Adrianacandle,
”So many of us, in our attempts to be fair, impartial, and in our efforts to free ourselves from biases, more selfish motivations/desires, impact of past experiences, emotional influences, etc. do aspire to the neutrality Bran represents. But I’m not sure it’s possible for a human being to truly become this or become what Bran has become. We’ll always be subject to temptation, emotion, emotional biases, love and hate, forms of biases and prejudices, and human error.
And in that way, I think Alt Shift X is right because Bran isn’t really human anymore.”
Maybe it all comes down to whether we view human emotions as “bad” or “good,” and whether they make someone weak and vulnerable or strong and incorruptible.
About aspiring to “the neutrality Bran represents,” you wrote: “But I’m not sure it’s possible for a human being to truly become this or become what Bran has become.”
That made me think of my favorite little warrior princess and her realization that despite Jaqen 2.0 pestering her whether she truly wanted to become no one – an emotionally vacant killing machine – and then announcing that “finally a girl has become no one” – she could not suppress her humanity, and blew off Jaqen 2.0 and his murder-for-hire operation masquerading as a religion.
Without compassion and empathy, a ruler could assign little value to human life, and make cold calculations like The Hound would: The weak can’t protect themselves and therefore are prey for the strong, the killers of the world. (Isn’t there a saying that the value of a society is measured by how it treats its most vulnerable or weakest… or something like that?)
I perceived Not-Bran as devoid of empathy and compassion. He was certainly socially awkward and didn’t know or didn’t care when he was treating people like crap (e.g., Meera) or made offensive, embarrassing comments (e.g., telling Sansa that he had perved in on her on her horrific wedding night).
Whatever powers of premonition or omniscience Bran may have had, he did not really use them to help people much, did he? Bran telling Jon,
“You were exactly where you were supposed to be” like Kinvara telling Varys “everything happens for a reason,” doesn’t sound very reassuring. A ruler who sits back and lets sh*t happen because it was meant to be seems like someone who’d be ineffectual and incompetent.
I don’t know! I’m just rambling. I had been hoping to see Bran + Sam team up and combine book smarts and wizardry to save the day. I am not complaining that it came down to the VS dagger wielding ninja to be the savior of the human race when it was on the precipice of extermination. I had just expected Bran to have a more active role, and for something to demonstrate how he would be a competent, effective leader.
. (Sorry Tyrion. The supposed power of “stories” to unite and inspire people didn’t do it for me.)
– End Rant –
I don’t think they’re good or bad (I think that depends on the situation and what influence they have), I think they just… are. And they have a profound impact on us for better or for worse.
Yet, I think you are right when you say this. Emotion and humanity have great strengths:
But emotion can hamper, hinder, and blind, and result in bias and prejudice as well. I suppose it depends on the person and the situation.
I’m not sure how much Bran could see into the future. According to the actor, he could see glimpses but they are cloudy:
From Isaac Hempstead Wright:
But you also appear to be right that Bran has lost much of his concern — or at least, it agrees with what IHW says here:
But he also admits he’s not sure how Bran’s powers work:
And maybe this is because GRRM hadn’t figured things out yet by the time he had his sit down with D&D? Who knows.
But I suspect Bran as king is meant to signify hope for the future rather than envisioning a dystopian scenario with a cold and uncaring ruler who looks on impassively and without feeling. Whatever my own feelings on this (which Alt Shift X summarized quite well), I think Bran’s neutrality, impartiality, and lack of bias, pride, and personal self-interest are supposed to be viewed as promising compared to rulers of the past — in that he can’t be corrupted or deceived because he can use the Google search engine in his head and find out the truth. And that he can’t be bribed, his emotions can’t be played on, he has no pre-existing loyalties to any one family or house above the rest, and in theory, he’s not trying to use this power for self-interest. I think that’s the idea.
But I can’t disagree with the points you make either.
Adrianacandle,
So, according to Isaac H-W:
”… But that’s been the role of the Three-Eyed Raven for millennia. To sit there, watching, carefully. He doesn’t sit there judging. He doesn’t sit there advising. He just sits there keeping an eye on history and time.”
Yeah, no thanks. A head of state has to be engaged, not detached.
A king who does not judge and does not advise, and “just sits there keeping an eye on history and time”? A store bought mannequin could do that just as well.
I thought Varys came closest to describing the attributes of an ideal monarch for the realm:
(Tyrion & Varys, S5e1)
Tyrion: “What is it you want exactly?”
Varys: “Peace. Prosperity. A land where the powerful do not prey on the powerless.”
Tyrion: “Where the castles are made of gingerbread and the moats are filled with blackberry wine. The powerful have always preyed on the powerless, that’s how they became powerful in the first place.”
Varys: “Perhaps. And perhaps we’ve grown so used to horror we assume there’s no other way. If you sat on the Iron Throne, would you spread misery throughout the land?”
Tyrion: “I will never sit on the Iron Throne.”
Varys: “No, you won’t. But you could help another climb those steps and take that seat. The Seven Kingdoms need someone stronger than Tommen, but gentler than Stannis. A monarch who can intimidate the high lords and inspire the people. A ruler loved by millions with a powerful army and the right family name.”
Tyrion: “Good luck finding him.”
Varys: “Who said anything about him?”
They just went in the wrong direction. Instead of heading to Mereen they should have looked for “her” in Braavos.
👸🏻 🧹
According to Varys’s formulation, Arya checked off almost every one of the boxes:
• The Seven Kingdoms need someone stronger than Tommen ☑️
• but gentler than Stannis. ☑️
• A monarch who can intimidate the high lords ☑️
• and inspire the people.☑️
• A ruler loved by millions ☑️ (Savior of millions)
• with a powerful army 🔘 (In due time)
• and the right family name.” ☑️
I’m not sure Bran should apply for the position based on these job requirements.
I’ll write a couple words here why crowning Bran and the ending in general did make sense to me and why was it hopeful for me. This next part may be an “unpopular opinion” but it’s one of the key reasons why I was fully able to accept the ending. Long before S8, I already felt that “King/Queen of the Seven Kingdoms” was a position far too big to be held by one person and I believed that the IDEA of independent kingdoms in Westeros was always the right one, but the issue was that due to power-hungry monarchs, they kept being at war with each other. Nevertheless, I was always in full support that at the end of the story, Westeros is not ruled by one queen or one king.
Consequently, I saw Aegon’s Conquest as something negative in first place. Exploring a bit of a background lore, Valyrians managed to destroy literally every big civilization in the East just because they could. First the Ghiscari, then Andals and then Rhoynars. They had extremely unfair advantage due to owning dragons so they just conquered everything they could. Eventually, “justice” was served to them when the cataclysm happened and their city was destroyed. Here I would think that the world is finally free of Valyrian terror but no, one Valyrian family survived… the Targaryens. So what follows next? Aegon arrives to Westeros and in full Valyrian fashion conquers the entire continent, leaving people no choice at all. “You bow to me, you live. You fight back, you burn.” Now we have another great civilization in a grasp of Valyrian lord, in fact, a civilization that escaped from Valyria in first place. In my eyes, I think Aegon’s Conquest is also conveniently written in a way that we don’t automatically develop some extreme resentment to Targaryens. Which houses got out of it the easiest? Stark and Tully because king Torrhen Stark was frightened into submission (or as history says: “he knelt because he didn’t want to see his people being burned alive”) before the fight would begin and Tully lord actually sided with Aegon. Which houses got the worst? King Harren and king Argillac who were both cruel kings from get-go (so a “good thing” happening) and House Gardner which burned in field of fire, for the only reason because they didn’t want to submit. But what if it was the Starks and the North that would suffer the cruel fate on Field of Fire? Would we still look so fondly on Aegon’s Conquest?
All in all, Aegon’s Conquest in my eyes throwed Targaryens into an equation that they were never supposed to be part of… they became overlords again like Valyria was for thousands of years over every other civilization east of Westeros. They ruled because they believed they have a »divine right« and that they can do anything they want because they’re above laws of men. When Robert’s Rebellion happened, I saw it as something fully necessary in order to eradicate Targaryens from the equation And no, I don’t mean killing the kids – I fully oppose that. But I think that was the day when their rule in Westeros should have permanently ended and I also think that was the moment when the »Dragonpit scene« should have happened afterwards in order to gradually remove this infamous position of power. But sadly it didn’t, the monarchy continued to be hereditary and it lasted for fragile 17 years.
So when Bran was made king, it was very much hopeful in my eyes. Hopeful because I feel naming him as king and abolishing hereditary monarchy made the position of king not as being »overlord« but only as a symbol of unity while the actual fate of the Seven Kingdoms is in hands of the people. And I think that’s well symbolized in a scene where Bran leaves the council. Like »I took the position for you but now it’s up to you to prove people right. The power is in your hands«. So when I see the question, what’s the point in naming someone a king who is detached from everything? In my eyes, that’s exactly the point… that he’s not power-hungry, that he doesn’t approach the situation as someone who wants to hold people in his grasp but that he’s there as a symbol of unity, that he’s the symbol of »non-corruption« but it’s actually the people themselves that hold the power. In my eyes, Bran’s naming gradually lessens the impact of seat of power and with non-hereditary monarchy, the seat of power is now not guaranteed, but will need to be earned every time and it’s earned through values, not power. Bran’s ascension can serve well for the transition of this mentality, especially after such blow that Dany’s short ascension left in place. And in hopeful scenario, the new symbolic position of king will aspire hope in various kingdoms around Westeros so they don’t fight amongst ourselves for more land, power, and influence, but rather focus on what they have, what good they can do for their own people… in short, that the idea will spread that they have a choice and that they don’t follow whoever is above them for the sake of unconditional loyalty. Could the scene be more polished? Of course, I definitely feel so. But the idea behind it, I think it’s very much the right one.
A question for the ‘tecky’ people. Does anybody know anything about the free VLC media player. I’ve downloaded it. I want to try and ease myself back into doing some home typing again but since the source of work I had before has dried up I want to ease myself back in gently. Some of the typing mills don’t play a brilliant lot but I thought they’d be a way of dipping my toe in the water again. Something to boost the pension is always welcome. VLC probably wouldn’t cut the mustard really for professional work but it might suit to practise some audio files and maybe use for taking some tests. YouTube may have some information of course.
To get back on track with the subject of the thread, the sentimental part of me would have liked Gendry and Arya to have got together more permanently but Arya going exploring does seem in character. My fan theories are usually wrong. I suppose book Varys will come to grief (I think he probably will) because of his involvement with Young Griff. I preferred show Varys to book Varys. Book Varys and book Tyrion weren’t particularly palsy-walsy and their relationship being based more on pragmatism than friendship. I suppose it’s possible that the characters might become more friendly when and if the unpublished books hopefully make it into print.
*Chuckle* I can understand that. Like many, I did wish that Bran’s new reality and value were better elucidated in seasons 7 & 8. For me it worked well enough. I felt Sam’s insight into why the Night King would care about ending the Three-Eyed Raven (humanity’s memory) as central to wiping us out made a lot of sense but was diminished by the brevity of that war council scene in a similar way the Dragonpit scene could have used filling out. I share Adriana’s speculation that GRRM hadn’t yet worked out the meat of Bran’s story and left D&D hanging, to imagine it themselves.
At the risk of becoming a serial quoter of past comments, I somehow remember another one on Bran that I resonated with from someone named Dire guineapig, copied below. (We’re all becoming Bran now, with Google at our fingertips; maybe the people who thought ASOIAF is an allegory for climate change should instead think about whether it’s one about the advent of AI coming to rule the world).
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
”So when I see the question, what’s the point in naming someone a king who is detached from everything? In my eyes, that’s exactly the point… that he’s not power-hungry…”
• Except when offered the crown. he didn’t say, “No thanks. I can’t be king of anything. I’m the Three-Eyed Raven.” He said “Why do you think I came all this way.” He wanted power. He just went about obtaining it in a stealthy, Machiavellian manner.
• Evil Bran theorists would argue that he let hundreds of thousands of people die, and said or did nothing to stop it, so events would unfold as he foresaw them whereby he would wind up on the throne when the dust settled. For someone with the ability to “see” everything everywhere, he was awfully silent when a word of warning could have prevented catastrophes and massive losses of life.
• Oh, incidentally. did he or did he not have the power to see the future? Isaac H-W believes Bran could only see fragmentary. hazy visions of the future. I could accept that; I like it better if he was not some all-powerful god-like super-being who could pull a deus ex machina and control the outcome of any situation.
For instance, when Bran gave Arya the dagger in S7e4, when his fingers let go of the blade it was as if he had a moment of precognition – some kind of hazy premonition that she would do something significant with that weapon though he could not
tell exactly what or how. Fair enough.
To insert into a story an omniscient entity who could pre-ordain events and play puppet master over unwitting mortals would remove any drama and uncertainty. Anytime conflicts arose, they’d be neatly preempted or defused by his pseudo-divine intervention. Watching stories like that play out with predictable resolutions would become boring. A magic-enhanced character could be great, the best at what he does. But after a while, it feels like a carpenter making chairs. Drains the fun right out of it. But I don’t have to tell you that, hey? [Sorry. Couldn’t resist a Polliver callback. 🤓]
• What confused me a bit about the limitations on Bran’s ability to see the future – even if explained away by his hastily downloaded software and difficulty making sense out of fragmentary bits of data – is that Jojen exhibited the power of greensight: he told Karl “the Fookin Legend of Gin Alley” Tanner that he “saw” his bones burning. (I thought Jojen also “saw” on the wall of the Craster shack an image of the 3ER cave tree.) 3ER 1.0 seemed to have foreknowledge of the arrival of Bran & Co.
Were Bran’s greenseer powers underdeveloped? Was that the in-universe explanation for the limitations on his ability to foresee or foretell the future?
• Final comment/question:
Considering that the show’s name was “Game of Thrones” and much of the story dealt with rival claimants and families jockeying for the throne; and the showrunners knew from Big G that Bran would wind up as king at the end…
… Maybe, just maybe, sidelining Bran for an entire season wasn’t such a great idea?
Some set-up for his eventual ascent to the throne, some demonstration of his abilities – both magical and administrative – could have satisfied many fans who felt Bran’s coronation came out of left field.
I don’t know. I mean, even a few scenes in S5 of Bran sweeping the floors of the 3ER’s cave, chatting with Leaf or Meera, and learning tree tripping with 3ER, could have been used to foreshadow Bran’s ending. To have Bran disappear for an entire season seemed like a strange decision in retrospect.
In all fairness, if Bran’s absence made the story disjointed, G ought to bear some of the blame.
I still maintain (and as a non-book reader this is rank speculation on my part) that the showrunners had to improvise on the fly, and had to abridge, reconfigure or jettison intended storylines, because G’s inability to keep pace writing the books left the showrunners without source material to fill in narrative gaps. Maybe this compelled them to delay the progress of certain characters’ storylines – like Bran’s?
I’m just spitballing here… After all, they did give Sansa/Sophie a different, more immersive storyline in S5 because they didn’t want to leave her twiddling her thumbs in the Vale like book! Sansa, or sideline her character for an entire season. It could also be argued that they cobbled together a post-Braavos storyline for Arya out of borrowed plot points, e.g., book! Manderly’s Frey pies and book! LSH’s Frey extermination campaign, before parking Arya in WF as a secondary character in the S7 Sansa – LF WF storyline.
I am not so sure why they could not come up with something for Bran to do in S5 to flesh out his powers or set up his ascension to the throne. As (I think) Tensor and others have observed, the “best story” pretext for nominating Bran came off to some viewers as a “rhetorical gimmick,” rather than a logical culmination of his narrative. If the show had to resort to a “gimmick,” then some responsibility ought to be ascribed to Big G. From what I can glean, except for the Hodor reveal in S6e5, Bran’s post-S4 trajectory consisted of show-only material.
That’s my tinfoil theory, and I’m sticking to it unless and until G proves me wrong.
Let me ask a tricky question: a character sees the not-so-bright future (or flashes of future) but is also fully aware of the fact that future can’t be changed. The character ends up doing nothing in order to change it because they know it’s impossible. Eventually, the character’s awareness of this fact and consequent indifference is a contributing factor that the future really plays out the way they foresaw it.
Did the character act wrong to give in to pre-destination?
Dame of Mercia,
”To get back on track with the subject of the thread, the sentimental part of me would have liked Gendry and Arya to have got together more permanently but Arya going exploring does seem in character.”
I agree. Let’s get back to the subject of the thread: Arya!
Like many show watchers (and book readers?), I thought Arya & Gendry winding up together would not just be cheesy “shipping” to please casual fans.
Rather, I felt that it would be a neat twist on the S1e1 conversation between Robert and Ned arranging a marriage between Joffrey and Sansa.
Robert had said something like: “I have a son, you have a daughter, let’s join our houses. For that son to turn out to be Gendry and the daughter to turn out to be Arya would have fulfilled Robert’s prediction – though in an entirely unexpected way. It would have been narratively satisfying and crowd-pleasing. Just because a conclusion appeals to “the sentimental part” of us does not mean that it should have been subverted for the sake of subverting expectations. It made perfect sense. It would have been a logical, earned “bookend” to the (disastrous) Joffrey-Sansa arrangement. (Fulfilling prophecies and predictions in unexpected ways is a hallmark of good storytelling. See, e.g., Shakespeare.)
I am not sure that Arya jilting Gendry wasn’t a missed opportunity. Sure, “Arya going exploring does seem in character.” That need not have been a romantic impediment.
In fact, Gendry proposing to Arya by asking her to be the Lady of Storm’s End, or expecting her to accept, was out of character: How many times had Arya told him some variation of “I don’t want to be a lady” or “Don’t call me ‘My Lady’”?
The Gendry who had come to know the “real” Arya would never think of tying her down in a conventional role, stuck in a dreary castle. He would know enough to appeal to her by proposing “Let’s go on adventures together! Anywhere you want to go!” Anything would have been more enticing than “marry me and be what I know you don’t want to be.”
It was nice that she let him down easy with the equivalent of the modern-day “You’re a great guy and any woman would be lucky to have you, but I’m so busy with work these days that I don’t have time for a relationship. It’s not that I don’t love you. It’s just that you deserve better; more than I can give. Can we still be friends?”
Another thing – and I am NOT whinging: It would not have been terrible had the show left the door open just a little – for example, with an exchange of glances or a little flirtatious banter between the two of them at the dragonpit summit. Instead, they both sat there without acknowledging each other. Ex-lovers who remained fond of each other wouldn’t behave that way, would they?* They had a long, shared history way beyond a single tryst. “Ghosting” each other or ignoring each other did not seem natural or logical. At least that’s how I saw it.
* (Even after a messy break-up, the passage of time would have soothed any hurt feelings. Do I need to re-post the Harry & Charlotte post-break up scene from Sex and the City to illustrate this?)
So, while retaining her independence and pursuing a non-conformist, untraditional lifestyle would be consistent with Arya Stark’s character, treating Gendry like a one-night stand was not.
From a narrative standpoint, I felt that the evolution of their relationship developed over the course of eight seasons (from Season 1 Episode 10 through Season 8 Episode 6) merited a different kind of concluding scene for the two of them. It would only have taken a few words, a few looks and a few seconds.
I mean, this was the girl who once told him “I can be your family” as if she were saying “I you,” according to the stage directions. This was the guy who told her he loved her and nothing about his lordship would mean anything without her. Their S8 reunion portrayed them as two dear friends who, after a few years apart, were both now adults and delighted to telegraph their mutual attraction. I had a hard time accepting their conclusion as realistic, or faithful to their established characters. I was disappointed that the Robert-Ned arranged marriage plan was not revisited with different son and different daughter, as was foreshadowed.
Am I wrong?
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
And just to mention, I don’t think this question has “right” or “wrong” answer. Pre-destination is a controversial story element and in my opinion, being able to see your own future is one of the worst “curses” that can inflict you.
Dame of Mercia,
I love VLC player. It’s been my preferred player of choice for so long. It can play just about any file format, even incomplete files sometimes, it allows you to add your own subtitles track, turn off a subtitles track. It’s lightweight, free, open-source, multi-platform, updated frequently, and I believe you can do other things with it (but this is an area I haven’t explored. I use VLC only as a media player while I leave video and audio editing to other programs, but I don’t do much of that anymore. My preferred video editor used to be Final Cut Pro but Apple changed it and reduced it so much to look like iMovie that I had to move to Adobe Premiere for the functionality I needed — like animating layered files.)
I also agree with you about Arya and Gendry. Admittedly, I didn’t feel strongly either way about any kind of outcome to their relationship, I wouldn’t have minded if they ended up together or apart, but I thought Arya’s ending was in character. It’s sort of my feeling that perhaps she needed to discover more thoroughly who she was and maybe there’s a need to do that on her own before she can enter a longterm relationship with another character (I know that’s a far more modern stance but I don’t think there was a pressing need for Arya to marry at that time) — particularly after all the pain and identity issues she’s been through since she was a child. Whatever happens in the books between them, romantic or platonic, I think they can retain their bond and shared history regardless 🙂
It’s hard to disagree (but I think King Bran, in his duties as king, would need to be called upon to make some final decisions and judgements? Perhaps ISH was talking about personal judgements — ie. “What a smelly douche Bronn can be!”) and I agree a head of state needs to be engaged rather than detached.
Yet, my own personal feelings about Three-Eyed Raven non-human King Bran aside, I also agree with some of the insights Northern Breeze shared in their 10:22 am comment as part of the writer’s intention. Goodness only knows what D&D were working with from GRRM and what in-between spots they had to fill in for themselves. Maybe there will be more to all of this in the books? If we ever get to see these books.
After all, Bloodraven (in the books) didn’t seem to become a detached, inhuman computer. Maybe Bran as the Three-Eyed Raven in the books will be somewhat different too?
Adrianacandle,
“It’s sort of my feeling that perhaps she needed to discover more thoroughly who she was and maybe there’s a need to do that on her own before she can enter a longterm relationship with another character.”
——————
(Re-Post?)
Musical Interlude
Dedicated from Arya 👸🏻 🏴☠️
to Gendry 🦌🚣🏻♀️
🎶 ”Yes, and I ain’t saying
You ain’t pretty
All I’m saying, is I’m not ready
For any person, place or thing
To try to pull the reins
In on me.”🎶
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9qsDgA1q8Y
“Different Drum” (1967) –
Linda Ronstadt
Ten Bears,
A beautiful new earworm and a fitting song!
Adrianacandle,
I decided to read a subtle knife again to get ready for HDM season 2. I should finish before it starts. I’m amazed at how many details i forgot already.
I’m taking notes as I read this time in my phone at the end of each chapter and I think I will remember better this time. I might have to do a reread of ASOIAF if TWOW ever sees reality. That will take significantly longer than HDM
Oooooh, that’s a great idea. I should do that! Instead of reading AmITheAsshole, HobbyDrama, and StolenSeats on Reddit…
Yes, I think I will do that!
Adrianacandle,
Cool!
(But if you’re ever looking for drama over canning tomatoes or getting access to the blackest black in existence, HobbyDrama is where you want to go! ;D)
Adriana, I spent a bit of time yesterday trying to co-ordinate VLC (I downloaded the free version) with some footpedal software but couldn’t get it to work. I can still use it for watching videos of course. I downloaded a free player that I think is or was originally meant for typing court transcripts (has a time stamp inserting facility) which I can co-ordinate with my foot pedals. If I do start doing the typing again seriously I’ll need to get something like Bytescribe which will play the DSS and DS2 files (talking about sound files here). I wouldn’t mind doing something completely different from typing because I did it for years as part of my secretarial duties and then during my retirement to bolster my pension but it’s difficult to think of anything else I could do to a professional standard. If the pandemic hadn’t happened I had planned to enrol on a beginner’s DIY/maintenance course but that wasn’t with the aim of getting work it was so I could do some of the more basic repairs in the house.
Ten Bears, as regards the further adventures of Arya Stark I guess we are all free to write our fan fictions in our heads.
Adriana, sometimes if I want my spirits lifted I’ll watch things on YouTube like IDONTWORKHERELADY and ENTITLEDPEOPLE though they are videos where people read out the Reddit posts rather than my reading the posts myself. I sometimes read the ASOIAFcirclejerk for amusement. That’s just looking at the over-reaction of some of the people who were hacked off with the ending of GoT the show – I think some of the people there didn’t like the ending either but they feel some of the uber fans go too far with their negativity.
So we are back to this… Season Eight sucked…no it didn’t, yes it did, no it didn’t! You are a toxic fan, no I’m not, you are a snowflake, no
I’m not …geeesh…
You know, the show ended more than a year ago…and while the fact that it engenders such passions is I suppose somekind of testament to it’s fandom’s devotion…at some point this whole routine about how the “show was ruined” or not, in the eighth season, no in the sixth, no in the fifth, no in the fourth, no in the seventh, is starting to get old and dated….
I doubt at this point anybody’s mind or opinion will be changed as to how they view the series or feel about it’s ending, individual seasons and so on.
I for one think, I’m due for a complete re-watch of the show, finally getting to enjoy my Blu-ray set away from all the “controversy”.
…and someday someone’s Further Adventures of Arya Stark fan fiction is bound to show up on our TV screens or computer monitors.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/494/628/0df.jpg
#TakeMyMoney
loco73,
I said I read the circlejerk subreddit for amusement sometimes. I don’t comment on it. I didn’t say anything about my personal feelings about the end of GoT the show in my last two comments and when I said something about personal fanfic for what happened to Arya after the show I mentioned it being in the head, i.e. in the mind, not written down.
Ten Bears,
I hadn’t seen that meme before, TB.
Dame of Mercia,
Oh, that comment wasn’t addressed at anybody in particular in this comment thread. More like a general observation of sorts. People can think and say as they please (up to a point) and continue this back and forth to their heart’s content. I just think that at this point it is unlikely to have the desired effect or intended outcome.
loco73,
Sorry if I misconstrued your meaning. I’ll admit I’m somewhat hesitant about joining other fandoms now. I’ve read the first book of ‘The Wheel of Time’ as that series is in the process of being serialised – I thought it was okay though I may be a bit long in the tooth for that series of books. I’ve watched a few videos by fans of the books regarding the series but I may just watch independently without becoming involved in a fandom.
• You forgot to include, “Season 8 was brilliant, thank you Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, I’ll always be grateful.” 😏
•
• “I for one think I’m due for a complete re-watch of the show, finally getting to enjoy my Blu-ray set away from all the “controversy.”
Even in the more divisive, final two seasons, there were still so many inherently rewatchable, amazing scenes.
For example, despite the criticism of a dearth of witty dialogue or extended scenes without any dialogue at all (e.g., bummed-out Tyrion walking around during opening of S8e6), some of those scenes were well worth watching for the gorgeous cinematography alone, e.g., Arya running through and emerging from the firestorm of Dany’s Inferno. I don’t really need an explanation for the appearance of the white horse to appreciate the imagery.
And while S8e4, “The Last of the Starks,” was probably my least favorite out of all 73 episodes (no need to re-whinge about it here), it still had a wonderful though all-too-brief Sandor & Arya
scene, when they rode away together from WF heading to KL.
• I for one disliked everything about the High Sparrow and his forehead-carving morons. I fast forward through all of his repetitive, sanctimonious speechifying.
And yet, I still get a perverse pleasure rooting for Cersei/Lena Headey after her torture and humiliation at the hands of the High Hypocrite and his sadistic henchwoman Septa Unella. (Stripping Cersei naked and parading her down Main Street: What could go wrong? 🤔)
I could rewatch that Cersei-Unella wine boarding scene in perpetuity, and still get a kick out of Cersei’s response to Unella’s declaration that she was ready to meet the gods, by informing Unella she’s not going to die for quite a while, before introducing Unella to her new boyfriend FrankenGregor. I almost feel guilty for enjoying Cersei snarking “Shame! Shame! Shame!” as she closed the cell door behind her. Oh, and I’d be remiss if I didn’t commend Hannah Waddingham, a beautiful comedic actress who was unrecognizable as the stern Shame Nun…
****
[Damn! To be continued. Sorry so long. Screen is freezing. Can’t edit. Apple really wants to force me to trade in my iPhone, doesn’t it? 😡]
I have the same issues on my ancient iPhone 7 (well, a new-used phone after I destroyed my iPhone 6 — I thought grass would break its fall!!)! And actually, I don’t think you’re wrong about Apple: check this out D:
Ooooh, I like those kinds of things too! I also love looking up Neopets drama or YouTube drama (I have a friend who admins a large YouTube scandal site — it’s like page 6 but for YouTube with drama on Shane Dawson, Jeffree Star, James Charles, Tati, Trisha Paytas…)
But my favourite drama ever is that aforementioned fight between Anish Kapoor and Stuart Semple because it is so so petty and so so low-stakes and resulted in great artist materials developed by Semple 🙂
So in 2014, Kapoor bought the rights for exclusive usage of Vantablack (the then-blackest black in all the world) and won’t let anybody else use or have access to the world’s blackest material (even if they had the correct environments and could use the material safely*). Well, this resulted in a controversy and Semple, in particular, thought it was unfair. He retaliated by making the world’s “pinkest pink” and allowed anybody to purchase it — as long as they were not Anish Kapoor (you even have to agree to terms of use when purchasing it, promising you are not Anish Kapoor, friends with Anish Kapoor, or will give this to Anish Kapoor).
Well, Anish Kapoor still managed to get his hands on it and instagrammed a photo with Semple’s pigment, flipping the bird — with that finger covered in Semple’s Pinkest Pink.
Not to be deterred, Semple came out with another artist material in response: The Most Glittery Glitter — and it was made out of shards of glass 😉
Note: Semple’s pigments are legitimately great! The black he developed (Black 3.0) is currently the blackest paint artists (and anyone else wishing to purchase) have access to. And in 2019, MIT came out with an even blacker black (absorbing 99.995% of all light) called CNT.
*However, use of Vantablack and CNT is highly restricted because they are pretty dangerous materials and need to be used in a specialized, controlled environment.
So I’m really really curious because I’ve never heard of this process before! What are the foot pedals for when typing up transcriptions?
Adriana, I’ll try and link a picture or video tomorrow. I’m a bit sleep deprived and am having an early night so am on phone and don’t know how to do links on the mobile. It’s not like playing the organ type pedals. It’s a unit with a lead to plug in a USB port on the computer. On my unit the main middle pedal is ‘play’, the left one is rewind and the right one fast forward. It means you can type a bit faster because you can bypass the hot keys to play the tape (most ‘tapes’ are sound files these days.
loco73,
(Cont. from 1:30 pm above)
“…at some point this whole routine about how the “show was ruined” or not, in the eighth season, no in the sixth, no in the fifth, no in the fourth, no in the seventh, is starting to get old and dated.”
……
”I for one think, I’m due for a complete re-watch of the show, finally getting to enjoy my Blu-ray set away from all the “controversy”.“
The points I was trying to make, before drifting off on tangents and getting sabotaged by my crappy cell phone or wonky internet connection, were:
• Fans’ assessment of the show doesn’t have to be an all-or-nothing proposition. There’s nothing wrong with discussions analyzing perceived misfires or opining that the show sputtered as it neared the finish line – while also enthusiastically revisiting scenes, episodes and storylines that we enjoyed.
• If, let’s say, 90% of the show (equivalent to roughly 65-66 episodes) was top-notch, I’d find it hard to complain that the remaining 10% that wasn’t up to par “ruined” the show.
• I find it interesting to read others’ opinions and analyses about why certain aspects fell flat, and why others were effective.
I like to think of the intelligent fans weighing in here as sort of like forensic anthropologists who try to unearth and piece together clues as to why some viewers felt the show “went off the rails” or “failed to stick the landing.”
By the same token, I enjoy reading comments dissecting particular scenes to explain why they were so enjoyable – including the acting, dialogue, music, costumes, etc. I appreciate learning from ASOIAF readers about the nuances of the books-to-show transition and adaptation decisions.
• Although I am a pre-books, show-only fan, my pet theory has been that:
– Much of the fandom’s whinging about changes in quality, complexity or tone of the show in later seasons is attributable to GRRM’s failure to finish writing the books. As many of us have observed, Benioff and Weiss signed on to adapt G’s books, not finish his story for him.
– Even worse, up against fixed deadlines and budgetary constraints, the showrunners didn’t have the luxury of taking however long they wanted to write scripts and film them. Many show-only creations worked out well. Others did not.
• I remain convinced that lots of the “controversy” and bickering stems from the narrative gaps between where GRRM left off in the last book he released, and the ending he imparted to the showrunners in rough outline form, i.e., without detailing how he planned to get there.
– Unexpectedly forced to write from scratch material to bridge those narrative gaps (what I call “connective tissue”), it’s no surprise that the showrunners could not duplicate the author’s
intricate plotting.
– I’ve not hesitated to bitch and moan about resorting to tired old cliches (like the alien mothership device, i.e., zapping the aliens’ leader deactivates all their drones). Also, the show appeared to abridge or jettison entirely storylines, and left unresolved mysteries that had been set up in earlier seasons.
I think that is due in large part to GRRM’s failure to provide the resolutions and payoffs. The showrunners had to either cobble together resolutions themselves – or pull the plug (what another commenter called “the Dorne Solution”).
As a result, lots of Easter Eggs, foreshadowing and clues sprinkled in throughout the first six seasons wound up as window-dressing and “unfired guns.” (That is why, I believe, for example, the mysteries behind the White Walkers were left unresolved; the show! WWs targeted Bran because memories; the White Walkers were vanquished in one episode after the silly Bran Bait Plan and arbitrary selection of Arya to shank NK; and the WWs were never mentioned again. Likewise, the silly catch-a-wight plan and dragon harpooning came off as ad hoc constructs for breaching the Wall.)
I am NOT condemning the showrunners for these wonky plot points. If they had 9+ years – or some guidance from George the Gardener, I am sure they could have come up with something else.
• I admit that it’s easy for anonymous fans to sit behind their keyboards and pick apart a TV show. Lots of armchair “experts” have made a cottage industry out of making videos insulting “Dumb & Dumber” as clueless hacks and bashing them for “lazy writing,” “bad writing,” etc.
I have yet to see any of these Monday morning quarterbacks demonstrate they could have done a better job scripting, producing and filming 73 episodes under the same circumstances as those confronted by Benioff and Weiss.
• With apologies in advance for repeating a baseball analogy:
A few years ago when I was a fan of the Miami Marlins, my favorite player Giancarlo Stanton went on an unprecedented homerun tear over the summer. [Note: This was a couple of years after the Many-Faced God tried to turn him into a Faceless Man, but that’s another story.]
I was squeeing with delight watching physics-defying moonshots fly off his bat, into the upper decks and out of stadiums.
Anyway, with a week or two left in the season he was closing in on the National League (60) and Major League (61) home run records.
During the final weekend, I winced every time he took a pitch right down the middle of the plate, or swung and missed at a pitch outside the strike zone. I groaned when he hit a sharp line drive double. I yelled from the stands or at my TV, “F*ck! You could have blasted that one out of the park!” He still clobbered a few more home runs in that final weekend.
Yet, he fell just short, finishing the season with 59 home runs.
Was I disappointed with the ending? Sure. I wanted to witness the best-ever ending to the most enjoyable season I had ever experienced as a die-hard fan. I had become emotionally invested in seeing him cap off the year in grand style.
Now, did I feel that the last few games during the final week “ruined” the entire 162-game season? Of course not.
Stanton still ran away with the RBI and HR titles. He won the Most Valuable Player and Silver Slugger Awards in lopsided voting. I still enjoy rewatching compilations of his 59 homeruns.
This is how I feel about GoT. Any letdowns or “missed opportunities” over the last couple of seasons did not erase my appreciation for the entirety of the 73-episode show. And expecting the showrunners, under the circumstances [yeah, thanks George 🤬] to hit a homerun every time would be unrealistic. So while I can grouse about their strikeouts and popouts, and vent my frustration that the show didn’t go out with a bang, I do try to remember all of the times they swung for the fences and made solid contact.
– End Long-Winded Commentary –
Part 1 of 2
Musical Interlude
for Gendry ❤️ Arya
• S1e10 Arya meets Gendry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFU5cObsWhc
Gendry, at 1:14:
“When I hit that steel it sings.” 🔨
• S2e5 Arya checks out bare-chested Gendry forging steel sword.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5vwUYYQPUU
at 0:00 – 0:35
Part 2 of 2 (cont. from 6:13 pm)
• Gendry reunites with Arya in WF forges
S8e1 & e2 scenes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AXRbSt70t0
🎶”Now I told you so you ought to know
It takes some time for a feeling to grow
You’re so close now I can’t let you go
And I can’t let go
With you I’m not shy,
to show the way I feel
With you I might try,
my secrets to reveal
For you are a magnet and I am steel” 🎶
“Magnet and Steel” (1978)
– Walter Egan and Stevie Nicks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar5GaTC440M
🔨 🧲
Ten Bears,
“• You forgot to include, “Season 8 was brilliant, thank you Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, I’ll always be grateful.” 😏
•
• “I for one think I’m due for a complete re-watch of the show, finally getting to enjoy my Blu-ray set away from all the “controversy.”
________________________________
Yes and yes. I really liked and appreciated Season Eight and the work that went into it. I like the bittersweet ending and the compromises. Pretty much the same as life unfolds… most of the time.
I think it kept true to the overall tone and spirit of the show and not wavered to cheaply go for a happy ending or a less than perfect but still perfect ending.
And yes I am grateful to D&D for the work, effort and everything else they (as well as the rest of the cast and crew) poured into this series. Living with that for more than a decade of your life is quite something. It reminds me of what Peter Jackson went through with the LOTR trilogy…and it makes me frankly queasy to think at the magnitude and scale of what is involved.
I am also grateful that they kept their promise…of basically giving us an 80 hours or so movie, that would seamlessly flow from beginning to end. I happen to think they accomplished that and more.
Now, I have repeated those lines above in some form or other here, on other sites, message boards, in discussions with friends etc But it’s become ad nauseam and time has passed and whatever fleeting efficacy those discussions had, if any, has faded away. There is no point in the repetition, though clearly I just did it again.
People will either like GOT, hate it or as you said it need not be an all-in immutable position either “pro” or “contra”. And that is that…life goes on and I’d rather watch the show again without any of this…and it’s not like anyone’s getting in the way of that…just saying…
I also think that as the “entertainment media” is floundering and (hopefully) losing any and all influence, they need to stir things up to retain any remaining shred of relevance as somekind of “entertainment gatekeepers”. So every chance they get to interview one of the former cast members from GOT, the “questions” will inevitably drift towards any perceived controversial issues. Case in point this.
The good thing is that now you can pretty much afford not to give a rat’s ass on any of this. For example if I want to ask Katee Sackhoff (“Battlestar Galactica”, “Longmire”) anything
about her “Star Wars: The Clone Wars” character, Bo-Katan, I’ll just go to her YouTube channel and do it (nevermind all the other available options). I don’t need “Entertainment Tonight” for that. Either she’ll answer in a live Q&A, or in the comments section. Or another fan will etc.
Yep. That’s about it.
Dame of Mercia,
No problem. No harm done LOL.. 🤓
loco73,
”I also think that as the “entertainment media” is floundering and (hopefully) losing any and all influence, they need to stir things up to retain any remaining shred of relevance as somekind of “entertainment gatekeepers”. So every chance they get to interview one of the former cast members from GOT, the “questions” will inevitably drift towards any perceived controversial issues. Case in point this.”
Yeah, good point. In many ways, entertainment journalism has become a dumbed-down, click bait-centric cesspool. So-called “interviewers” asking cast members the same inane questions over and over, and try to stir up “controversies” by asking loaded questions to extract tidbits to take out of context.
Re: “Case in point” – I would have to read Joe Dempsie’s actual statements. I highly doubt he intended to criticize the pace of the final seasons. His character got a pretty meaty role and a great send-off in Seasons 7 and 8, so it’s hard for me to imagine him giving an interview in which his “lips are moving and [he’s] complaining about something,” i.e., whinging, as defined by Sandor Clegane.
Not so long ago skilled interviewers would engage their subjects and ask intelligent questions to elicit interesting observations about their work. (Who gives a sh*t if an actor would prefer to have a dragon or a direwolf, or who the actor thinks should be on the Iron Throne? Ugh.)
Just once I’d like an interviewer to focus on the actor’s experience of spending ten years on a show that became a worldwide phenomenon. Why try to goad cast members into weighing in on manufactured “controversies” or sliming the showrunners? I guess we already know why. As you wrote, “questions” will inevitably drift towards any perceived controversial issues.” That generates headlines, clicks and hits.
loco73,
Question –
You wrote:
”Living with that for more than a decade of your life is quite something. It reminds me of what Peter Jackson went through with the LOTR trilogy…and it makes me frankly queasy to think at the magnitude and scale of what is involved.”
I’m curious about the comparison to Peter Jackson and Lord of the Rings. I’m unfamiliar what he went through with the LOTR trilogy. I really liked all three. (I may be in the minority when it came to the “multiple” endings. Abrupt endings suck. I liked seeing what happened to the “hobbitses” after being honored at Aragorn’s coronation and returning home to the Shire.)
However, I was disappointed with the “Hobbits” movies (Smaug, dwarves, Bilbo, Legolas-elf girl-dwarf love triangle, etc.) that followed the LotR trilogy. Is that what you were referring to?
(Cont. from 12:26 am re: Lord of the Rings trilogy and Hobbit movies)
“Precious” (1980)
– The Pretenders (audio)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh-p7660QJ4
💍
“Precious” live 2009
– The Pretenders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6-0ypKuwv8
🎶
Oh, I see — that sounds really useful for transcription work. I did some transcription work a few times and it was a pain having to switch between windows to rewind, fast forward, pause, play the media and then go back into the document again. Foot petals controlling the media while I’d be able to stay in the document and type would have been really handy and I’d imagine it’d save a lot of time.
I never knew about such units!!
Ten Bears,
Ooooh, great songs! An LoTR interlude!
Adrianacandle,
This is the one I use – though the lady in the video isn’t me I hasten to add. https://youtu.be/dIl8hp2flmM
Mr Derp,
>>Bran being the only choice for a good king suggests that the solution to human evil isn’t human good, it’s being not human at all<<
i have skipped all following comments which might discuss your point. so i'm not up to date about replies to you.
i'd agree to this point in a reflex. but i'd disagree even more, as i don't think being tied to a wheelchair and having visions (let's use the profound term: hallucinations) kicks you out of the club of humans.
Bran faces physical handicap after his fall from the tower of sibling joy. he also faces psychic handicap after becoming the next 3ER, just ask Meera.
still he is capable of calling Theon a good man in the final minutes of Theon's life (and this clearly contradicts the Bran / Meera goodbye, thumbs down for this eternally!), he is capable of calling out Jamie with an insider joke, then sparing him and telling him finally that things just had to be done for love (aka history / effing karma…)
he even shows some sense of humor during the coronation debate and at the end of his small council meeting.
he is not so much inhuman. he's just the one who's the weakest on the outside being put into power by some representatives of an exhausted, really weak country. so much for pro-Bran and contra-"Inhuman".
on the other hand, i agree with you from the deep of my heart that we all wish a notebook with just 6GB harddisk and windows millenium edition as OEM (like my first ever back in 2001) would be the only candidate to probably beat a former VP in not even 72 hours… because the Orange Geoffrey running for recrowning surely is less human than the apparatus i mentioned.
forgive me for letting myself drift away in fear. it's just because Bran never told anyone he did a great job on Greyscale.
I know this reply isn’t to me but I just wanted to clarify something. It’s not about Bran being in a wheelchair or having visions and I believe Mr Derp is referencing one of Alt Shift X’s statements. This is Alt Shift X’s statement in full… and it’s a statement I agree with:
It’s that Bran is not really subject to human emotion, human error, and internal conflict anymore since becoming the Three-Eyed Raven — he doesn’t have those influencing his decisions, he can be completely neutral and impartial in the way a human can’t be. He can auto-fact check if somebody’s telling the truth of not. These are qualities humans don’t have because… well, human.
Isaac Hempstead Wright also commented on Bran’s lack of… concern here:
I mean, I guess we can debate on what makes somebody human but I think the crux of the matter is: Bran is no longer subject to many of the pitfalls (and strengths) emotion can result in, he doesn’t have those biases or prejudices, he’s got Google in his head, his likelihood of making mistakes because he can find the answer when told where to look in his visions makes human error a lot lower, he’ll face a lot less inner conflict because he is detached and impartial.
This is where I think Bran lacks what many other human beings are prone too. He doesn’t have that war within himself between different desires, different loyalties, different motivations, different feelings, etc. which, as Alt Shift X spoke about, is an ongoing theme (and an important theme, I’d argue) and exploration in the series.
Oooh, thank-you for this! I think I may consider getting one of these too for whenever I want to transcribe a piece of media! This would make things go a lot faster! How do you like it?
Adrianacandle,
I’m used to it. It suits me fine. Of course I used foot pedals back when I was doing audio-typing with the old-fashioned cassette tapes when I was office based but of course they use digital sound files now.
death by chickenfire,
”because the Orange Geoffrey running for recrowning surely is less human than the apparatus I mentioned.”
Hmmm. I think I christened him “Orange Walder” in a reimagining of a S6e10 scene some time ago. I’ll have to look for it
Ten Bears,
Hi Ten Bears… Just an update on the Arya Video mashup project..
I’m working on the more serious one first with the “Running with the Wolves” soundtrack (since I’m into it at the moment and there are alot less clips to gather!!) Arya does run alot!!! so it goes with the Running with the Wolves song. So I’m going to get all of her running scenes in there and alot of the scenes that built up her trauma…. I guess it will go well with the Kills video for her to take her revenge…
For the sarcastic/horrific Kills video to Girls Just Wanna Have Fun, here are the clips that I am gathering from compiling your emails and Arya’s kills. There are a ton!!! but let me know if I should include any others or if this is plenty 🙂 If you want to sequence it out for me, that would be very helpful (just put them in the order you think might work best). I could do a rapid fire sequence of all of the kill stabs to the beat or you could just sequence them in the order you like. It’s going to take me quite awhile to export each one and then put them altogether. I have all of these episodes successfully downloaded now, so I’m making progress……If you want to sequence the scenes out for me, it would make things easier and we could say we are collaborating like Maisie’s Daisie APP!!
#####################################
KILLS:
Stable boy (Season 1 The Pointy End
The Tickler (Jaqen) Season 2 ep 5)
Ser Amory Lorch (Season 2 ep 6) (the Old gods and the new)
A Frey soldier after the Red Wedding (Season 3 episode 10)
A Lannister soldier at the Inn of the Crossroads (Season 4) Two Swords
Polliver (Season 4 Two Swords)
In the same fight at the Inn at the Crossroads, Arya takes the chance to reclaim her sword, Needle, from the man who stole it. She stabs the injured Polliver in the throat with Needle, the same way he killed her friend Lommy when Polliver captured her, Gendry and Hot Pie near King’s Landing.
Rorge (Season 4) Mockingbird
Back when Arya met Jaqen H’ghar in Season 2, she was traveling with Yoren, a man of the Night’s Watch. Yoren had Jaqen and two others locked in a cage atop a cart. Arya freed Jaqen and the others, one of whom, Rorge, had threatened to sexually assault her. When Arya and the Hound were attacked by Rorge later, she stabbed him in the gut with Needle.
Ser Meryn Trant (Season 5) Episode 10
The Waif (Season 6) No One
Lothar Frey and “Black” Walder Rivers (Season 6) Episode 10
Arya leaves Braavos after defeating the Waif, intent to be Arya Stark rather than no one. She heads to the Twins, where she gets her revenge on the Freys. Off-screen, she kills Lord Walder Frey’s two sons, Lothar and “Black” Walder, and bakes them into a pie she feeds to their father.
Lord Walder Frey (Season 6) Episode 10
Every male member of House Frey (Season 7) Episode 1
Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish (Season 7) episode 7
Whights with arrows (season 8 episode 3)
Whights with spear on battlements (season 8 episode 3)
Zombee Girl (Season 8 episode 3)
The Night King (Season 8) Episode 3
(Killing whights with arrows, spear, and killing the zombee girl with the knife in the throat…
Sense of humor:
Laugh at the vale… Season 4 episode 8
7 hells with sansa…. season 1 episode 6
food fight….season 1 epsisode 1
arrow bullseye…season 1 episode 1
S3e9: (to Sandor): “Someday I’m going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull.”
S4e3: Map shop argument with Sandor
S2 EP 8 Shrugging off Jaqen’s plea to unname him: Episode 8
“A man can go kill himself.”
S4e5 Arya practicing water dancing when Sandor comes over to mock her
S5e3: Reaction to Waif striking her: “Ow! C*nt!”
+ “You’re about to find out”
S8e2: Precision knife-throwing accompanying her “I know death. He’s got many faces” speech to Gendry.
S1 5 + S7 4 : Responding to the threats of the two Red Keep guards + two WF guards
Oh, and maybe splicing together other “bookend”
scenes, like:
• S7e4 dagger flip vs. Brienne + S8e3 dagger flip vs. NK
• S1 Q&A with Syrio + S8e3 Q&A with Mel
(Q:” What do we say to the God of Death?” A: “Not today”)
• S4e10 Ignoring injured Sandor’s pleas (Kill me!”) + S8e4 (Sandor: “Are you going to leave me to die again if I get hurt?” Arya: “…Probably” 😃)
• Sword-naming convos : S1e2 with Jon + S1e3? with Ned + S4e1 with Sandor
Back to Gendry & Arya…
I’ve often noted that I appreciate effective callbacks, and bookend or mirror image scenes.
Here’s one that I particularly enjoyed:
S2 Arya: “Do not call me my lady!” / Gendry: “As my Lady commands,” revisited in S8, Gendry: “Is that a command, Lady Stark?”/Arya: “Don’t call me that.”
• Gendry & Arya S2e2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP60TkXmiAc
• But first, this S2e2 scene had one of my all-time favorite punchlines, delivered by young Maisie Williams:
at 5:14
G: “You shouldn’t insult people that are bigger than you.”
A: “Then I wouldn’t get to insult anyone.”
• … Now, here’s the “My Lady” exchange:
at 7:10 – 7:36
G: “So you’re a highborn then. You’re a lady.”
A: “No. I mean yes. My mother was a lady. And my sister.
G: “You’re a lord’s daughter and you lived in a castle. Look, all that about c*cks, I should never have said that. And I’ve been pissing in front of you and everything.
I should be calling you ‘My Lady’.”
A: “Do not call me ‘My Lady’!”
G: “As My Lady commands.”
(She shoves him)
G: “That was unladylike.”
(She shoves him to the ground; he laughs as she stomps off)
• And here they are again in S8:e1
(Gendry & Arya reunite in WF)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AXRbSt70t0
at 1:48 – 1:55
G: “…Not a bad place to grow up if it wasn’t so cold.”
A: “Stay close to then forge then.”
G: “Is that a command, Lady Stark?”
A: “Don’t call me that.”
G: “As you wish, My Lady.”
This time, instead of storming off Arya just smiled… and we know what came after that.
• Also, while I did not make the connection another fan online brought up that young Arya pushing down Gendry at the end of that S2e2
scene … was mirrored by grown-up Arya pushing down Gendry to facilitate their coital connection in S8e2.
Tron79,
5:36 pm – I just saw that you posted an update at 5:12 pm. I’ll have to read it later; my cranky old cell phone is down to 2% battery charge again. 😡
Adrianacandle,
It’s true that Bran is a new and different kind of ruler who can be neutral, who isn’t swayed or subject to human emotions, but as Alt Shift X said, “Bran being king suggests that the solution to human evil isn’t human good, it’s being not human.” Which… I think is a little yikes. And a debate all on its own.
That crosses into the territory of artificial intelligence (AI). So much sci-fi about AI is routinely predictable extreme dystopia, from Terminator to the Matrix to the latest Star Trek Discovery series. The moment computers become sentient apparently they are all out to destroy humanity. To me that’s politically driven bullshyt. To make a computer or robot starts with mining minerals from the ground then transport in lorries then assembly in a thousand factories then marketing and distribution. Computers can’t take over all of that so it’s in their interest to do deals with humans, not destroy them. The mindless dystopia smells of “ain’t capitalism bad” mind rot. No – my favourite movie about AI is AI by Spielberg. It’s way more credible; the humans are paranoically murderous and the AI life is the only refuge of goodness. So the king Bran ending is like the AI-David ending. Both good endings.
Your comment brings up a lot of interesting points and, going beyond GoT/ASOIAF/Bran, I think this is a fascinating debate to have (is AI the only refuge of goodness? Why or why not?) and it’s the exact kind of thing I’d love to watch a good 2-hour documentary about on Netflix exploring different sides of 🙂 (I also enjoyed AI!)
And I think King Bran as a hopeful sign was the writer’s intention.
Yet, I still can’t disagree with Alt Shift X’s feeling that “that the solution to human evil isn’t human good, it’s being not human” is a depressing message…
What is this device called? I’d like to look it up on Amazon. I’ve been thinking about doing some transcription work for supplementary income and this device would really help me out in that 🙂
Thanks for bringing this to my attention! I have a friend who also does transcription work and this would really help her out too!
Tron79,
Incidentally, here’s that picture of Maisie Williams with the 🦋 in her hair. Her eye make-up kinda resembles Cyndi Lauper’s eye make-up scheme in the video of her first appearance on The Tonight Show in March, 1984.
https://imgix.bustle.com/lovelace/uploads/344/34974610-e042-0131-6ccf-0aa0f90d87b4.png
(How’s that for a segue to an upcoming Musical Interlude?)
Semi- Off Topic
Musical Interlude
For your entertainment, here are Cyndi Lauper’s two appearances on The Tonight Show in 1984.
Each time, she opens with a bouncy song and demonstrates her quirky charm during the witty interview portion – before concluding with a beautifully sung ballad.
Each clip is enjoyable to watch in its entirety.
• March 1, 1984: Cyndi Lauper’s debut appearance on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson (16:45 long: 2 songs + interview)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-yis9av6xc
0:00 “Girls Just Want to Have Fun”
5:00 Interview
11:10 “Time After Time”
._________________
• Sept. 21, 1984: Cyndi Lauper’s second appearance on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. (18:56 long)
0:00 – 4:25 “She Bop”
4:26 – 12:00 Interview
12:01 – 16:50 “All Through the Night”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km4j8_P8FZw
💃🏼
Ten Bears,
Correction – If first link (to 3/1/1984 clip) did not embed properly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-yis9av6xc
—-
Adrianacandle,
Adrianacandle
Thanks for your reply.
I agree that there’s a very interesting discussion to be had on AI.
Hopefully with some counterbalance against the the reflexive dystopian view.
Potentially AI threatens wealthier white collar professions more than “blue collar” working class trades. People like lawyers and doctors can be AI-replaced more easily than construction workers and nurses. That’s why you’ll find elite push-back against AI. They fear their uselessness being exposed and their entrenched privilege threatened. End of mini-rant – that’s a sampler of a possible AI discussion…
“No – that’s not me.”
That repeated quote from Arya is a profoundly liberating phrase, embodying how self-discovery brings freedom from oppressive expectations. One of the more memorable phrases of the whole GOT series.
Northern Breeze,
Thanks for your observations on my previous comment. I’ve been following the subsequent eloquent discussion between you and Adriana.
Your descriptions of Bran not becoming “inhuman” but *transcending* his humanity to become “more than human” resulted in me having a “lightbulb moment”. I began joining the dots the more I read your comments describing Bran’s mental state, perspective and behaviour. It’s ingenious of GRRM to use this theme, and it’s brilliant of you to figure it out. I suspect you may be right:
Bran’s trajectory is based on Buddhist theories — and *Bran is eventually supposed to be the equivalent of the Buddha himself.* Even the main event surrounding their respective paths to enlightenment is pretty much the same: After some traumatic experiences, Bran eventually finds peace, clarity and enlightenment inside an ancient tree. The Buddha, of course, (voluntarily) underwent considerable suffering and supposedly achieved full enlightenment at a now-famous tree.
More broadly, Buddhism also has a major tradition of “a chain of Buddhas”, with one enlightened Buddha effectively giving their blessing to the next (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva). So there are direct parallels between the Three-Eyed Raven and Bran here too.
A few months ago I also posted a comment here comparing Bran’s storyline with another source in ancient Indian culture, the Mahabharata mythological epic (India’s equivalent of the Iliad). In that story, the semi-divine Krishna is omniscient and fully aware of the carnage to come, but he mostly remains detached from the warring groups as the massive conflict unfolds, apart from nudging things along at key points. There is also a famous incident when Krishna shares his divine wisdom in a long private conversation with one of the flawed-but-sympathetic heroes, in a clear parallel with Bran’s private conversation with Tyrion (although the Mahabharata version involves Arjuna, the story’s equivalent of Achilles and Jon Snow). Near the end of the story, after the war has concluded and the epic’s equivalent of the Starks have won, a griefstricken survivor furiously berates Krishna for knowing how much suffering and death was going to occur and still doing practically nothing to stop it; there are considerable similarities with the criticisms of Bran that Ten Bears has highlighted upthread. Given GRRM’s declared interest in global history and his use of some significant Indian-inspired names in ASOIAF (Arya, Meera, Khaleesi etc), I suspect the similarity to Krishna in the Mahabharata is not a coincidence either. In real-life medieval Indian history, incidentally, a queen called Meera was famously loyal to Krishna in terms of her devotion to the god during a time of great political strife and personal trauma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meera), so there are yet more parallels with ASOIAF/GoT’s Meera Reed and Bran here too.
But the Buddha/Buddhism angle is a bigger influence on Bran’s characterisation, I think.
As for Bran’s responsibilities as a king, the concept of a “divine/semi-divine” figurehead monarch delegating actual governance to a ruling council does have real-life historical precedents, most notably Samurai Japan (Bran = emperor, Tyrion = Shogun).
Adrianacandle,
The one I have is called the Infinity USB Digital Foot Control with computer plug=in (IN-USB2). There are other similar devices. This link is to British Amazon so doesn’t apply to Alberta. https://www.amazon.co.uk/INFINITY-USB-FOOT-PEDAL-IN-USB-2/dp/B002MY6I7G
Ten Bears at the time it was playing on radios I didn’t realise ‘She-Bop’ had a saucy implication. I’m s-ooooooo-o innocent and I NEVER tell lies.
Tron79,
“Storyboarding” lyrics?
Whether “Girls Just Want to Have Fun” is used as a soundtrack accompanying montages of Arya killing dirtbags and zombies, or
laughing and cracking jokes in lighthearted scenes, what do you think about interspersing the following scenes with the following lyrics?
• Lyrics (Second Verse):
“ The phone rings in the middle of the night … My father yells, “What you gonna do with your life?”
Oh daddy dear, you know you’re still number one
But girls, they wanna have fun Oh, girls just wanna have fun.”
Scene: Ned: “You shall marry a high lord and rule his castle…” Arya: “No, that’s not me.”
•Though Catelyn wasn’t involved…
Lyrics (First Verse):
“I come home in the morning light My mother says, “When you gonna live your life right?”
Oh momma dear, we’re not the fortunate ones
And girls, they wanna have fun Oh, girls just wanna have fun.”
Scene: When Arya returns to the Red Keep after going missing, an upset Ned tells her he had his guards out looking for her, and reminds her she had promised not to run off like that. Arya sheepishly explains she was “chasing cats.”
Ok I can do that.
Adrianacandle,
I suppose I should mention that I couldn’t get my footpedal to work with either Windows Media Player or VLC. It might be necessary to download a plug in. I was trying to get a program called pedaware (it’s free) to co-ordinate with the players but in the end I downloaded a free player that only did audio.
NGL, I live in South Florida and the weather combined with the upcoming election are giving me some “The Bells” vibes before Dany begins her assault on the city’s defenses. A sense of preparation peppered by chaos, potential civil unrest depending on the results, a palpable sense of tension and dread overall. It’s more unsettling to watch that scene in hindsight knowing what happens to most of those people despite their best efforts…
It’s definitely a complex thing to explore and anticipate even, particularly since there are unknowns involved and we don’t know what kind of innovation will occur or how that innovation will go. I think jobs at all levels could be replaced by AI (cashiers may be phased out by self-checkout) but perhaps some new jobs will be created in those places — but will they be enough for everyone, especially considering the increasing population? There are a lot of facets to this and I admit that I’m not so educated in it to do a thorough, informed exploration…
Oh, thank-you! Maybe I can find this device in Canada or an equivalent!
Also, thanks for those notes on the different players. Perhaps I’ll look into this as well. I’ll give a search for Pedawear myself to see if I can find something!
Farimer123,
”NGL, I live in South Florida and the weather combined with the upcoming election are giving me some “The Bells” vibes before Dany begins her assault on the city’s defenses…”
– What does “NGL” stand for?
– I live in S. Fla. too. 🤢
– It’s not so much the weather or the upcoming election that’s giving me “The Bells” vibes before Dany began her assault on the city’s defenses.
Rather, it’s that our nation and state dropped all defenses to the raging pandemic. It’d be as if…
Qyburn: “Disassemble the Scorpions. Send the Golden Company home. Open the city gates. Get the brothels up and running at full capacity. Pfft! Dragons are a hoax. 99% of us are immune from dragonfire anyway. We’ve done a fabulous job! We’re rounding the final turn on this war. Queen Cersei’s holding a victory rally tonight. Pay no mind to the Dothraki hordes and beta Unsullied you think you see massed outside the walls.”
(Sorry to jump in! NGL means ‘not gonna lie’ 🙂 )
Dame of Mercia,
”Ten Bears at the time it was playing on radios I didn’t realise ‘She-Bop’ had a saucy implication. I’m s-ooooooo-o innocent and I NEVER tell lies.”
Oh, I never realized that either, until I started exploring down a Cyndi Lauper musical rabbit hole a week or two ago. All I had remembered from hearing that song years ago was the fragment “…can’t stop messing with the danger zone.” I never made the connection. I figured it referred to a daredevil or risk-taker.
Dame of Mercia,
I am trying to track down one of these tee shirts…
https://mobile.twitter.com/cyndilauper/status/1320820297340248064/photo/1
Girls Just Want to Have Fundamental Rights
I just found one of Cyndi’s songs called Sally’s Pigeons Fly that I’m experimenting with Arya when she catches the pigeon snaps its neck and then witnesses Ned’s beheading and the pigeons are shown in the clouds. This is my more serious video before I tackle girls just wanna have fun.
Ten Bears,
Here’s Cyndi’s video of Sally’s Pigeons… It definitely goes with my sad video of many of Arya’s traumatic moments… I also have the AURORA song, and AURORA has a few others, but it got a bit distracting to Arya’s dialogue… I think this one may work for some of the opening scenes I’m showing with the pigeons…
I honestly doubt they gave that much thought to the themes or messaging. The good guys won, Bran is knowledgeable and wise so he should be king. I that’s pretty much the simplistic idea the show went for.
David Benioff did once famously say “themes are for 8th grade book reports”. So I highly, highly doubt they gave that much thought to the thematic messaging of Bran being king. I don’t think any dark interpretation was intended. I think they were just going for the GRRM bullet points, and had to come up with the weak rationale for why Bran would be king on their own, because that story hasn’t actually been told yet.
Tron79,
I read about “Sally’s Pigeons” during my recent excursions down into the Cyndi Lauper rabbit hole. I have refrained from listening to the song because everything I’ve read says it’s harrowing – consistent with what you wrote above:
”Here’s Cyndi’s video of Sally’s Pigeons… It definitely goes with my sad video of many of Arya’s traumatic moments…”
Without watching that video or listening to the song, I wonder if using it for a sad video “
of “Arya’s traumatic moments” would include..
• (S1e9): Arya’s head pressed against Yoren’s chest as she watches pigeons take flight – meaning that her father has just been beheaded. 😓
• S2 e? Sleepless, sad-eyed Arya describing for Yoren how that images of that awful experience were burned into her brain.
• S3 scene with Beric and Thoros recounting Beric’s multiple resurrections – when Arya
asks if a man without a head could be brought back, just once.
• There were also other pigeon scenes, though none of them signified trauma or sadness as far as I remember.
Exactly! I have all those scenes exported already too
Tron79,
Oh sh*t! Sorry. You had already identified the Ned beheading/pigeons flying scene. I should have read through your comments before replying.
Tron79,
This song may be more recognizable. Its opening verses make me think of sad, traumatized young Arya:
“True Colors” (1986) Cyndi Lauper
• Music video (1986)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPn0KFlbqX8
• live, Sept. 12, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhjvKndXePA
“You with the sad eyes
Don’t be discouraged
Oh I realize
It’s hard to take courage
In a world full of people
You can lose sight of it all
And the darkness inside you
Can make you feel so small….”
Tron79,
P.S. In addition to the 1986 music video. there are lots of great live versions of “True Colors” floating around YouTube.
I included the link to Cyndi Lauper performing it live just six weeks ago, in mid-September, 2020, because it was heartening to know she still sounds great after 34 years.
Adrianacandle,
Tron79,
I wanted to thank both of you and everyone else for your input into our contemplated collaborative side projects (2021 desk calendar, Arya music video, etc.)
At same point when I have the time I’d like to learn how to use editing programs. For now. real world obligations intrude. No urgency though.
(I’ve got two months to come up with 365 images + 365 captions for the 2021 calendar. Wait… these days two months fly by in the wink of an eye. 🤥)
Of course! And thanks to you (and Tron!) for coming up with these projects to collaborate on! Meanwhile, I’ll keep an eye out for any Arya illustrations/suitable quotes I come by and hoard them to help reduce that 365 number 🙂
They sure do. January only feels like three months ago but at the same time, a pre-covid lifetime ago…
My mind thinks tangentially sometimes. How I got there I’m not absolutely sure but I found myself thinking of a piece of doggerel that was doing the rounds when I was a child, a parody of the chorus about Daisy on a tandem.
“Daisy, Daisy, the coppers are after you
If they catch yer they’ll give yer a month or two,
They’ll tie you up with wire
Behind the black Mariah,
So ring the bell and peddle like h*ll
On the bicycle made for two”.
Dame of Mercia,
In a steampunk version of ACOK maybe Arya and Gendry could escape Harrenhall on a tandem. Hopefully there would be a conventional bike around for Hot Pie.
I wondered that as well. Thought it was very well done.
One bit that I noticed regarding Bran… I noticed that Bran’s “gloomy mood” actually doesn’t start when the original Three-Eyed Raven dies (and his powers were transfered to Bran) but actually after S6 finale when he starts using powers to full extent, staring into the past and likely the future too. This is only my personal theory but could it be that it was staring into the future that caused this detachment in him? Because as I said in my previous comment, I think seeing your own future can be a terrible curse for any human being, especially with knowing there’s no “escape” from it. I personally never believed that Bran became inhuman, I more saw it as him becoming “scarred” because he knew more than an ordinary person should have.
Cindy Ashcraft,
I suggested upthread that perhaps the reason that this site has thus far treated extracts from the book rather than writing an article about the book as a whole is that they may want to do the book justice. I must stress that I am just a layperson and have nothing to do with running this site so I may have guessed wrongly. You’ve probably already seen them but here is a link to the article related to the JH book dealing with leaving out Lady Stoneheart from the show version http://watchersonthewall.com/david-dan-explain-omitted-lady-stoneheart/#more-179606 and here is one to the feature about GRRM’s least favourite book to show adaptation of a scene. http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martin-discusses-least-favorite-scene-game-thrones/ The last time I tried to post on a forum here I could log in but when I tried to post I got a message saying that I needed to be logged in to post – so the gremlins were playing up in the forums that day. Otherwise there is nothing preventing anyone starting a forum post about the JH book.
I stumbled into the perfect transition this morning into Cyndi Lauper’s true colors. I am showing the scene when the brotherhood sells Gendry to the red woman and at the end the red woman takes Arya’s face and says she sees blue eyes etc and a darkness in you. The lyrics in true colors are. .” You with the sad eyes
Don’t be discouraged
Oh I realize
It’s hard to take courage
In a world full of people
You can lose sight of it all
And the darkness inside you
Can make you feel so small”
Now I’m onto some faceless man action with the game of faces (true colors) and then Arya’s loss of Jaqen when she thinks he died.
Jai,
Thanks. It would be interesting to know where GRRM drew his influences. That’s a great insight into understanding Bran in terms of Krishna’s role in the Mahabharata. While I tend to look at works like GoT in the same way as I would an ancient epic like that one, that once completed it stands on its own as a story whose most relevant meanings are those that come across to the reader/viewer rather than those intended by the original author(s), Bran/Krishna is such a clear parallel that it wouldn’t surprise me if GRRM or D&D did look at that and draw from it. And also very interesting is the comparison of the two Meeras.
When it comes to the GoT authors’ intentions, as I noted above I’m not sure how much of Bran’s portrayal came from GRRM and how much from D&D. It’s been a while since I read the books, yet I remember feeling that for all their wonder as epic entertainment, there was an overpowering cynicism and lack of appreciation for the strength and value – and enduring reality – of some of the more noble qualities of the human heart and experience – more so than what I’ve felt watching the show. So I enjoyed the show more: it had more heart, it seemed to me, though much of that no doubt came from seeing the wonderful actors infuse their roles with humanity. I’m therefore left wondering if GRRM will end up with a more cynical idea of Bran’s transcendent reality than the one I’ve taken from watching his portrayal in GoT, enlightenment-under-the-tree parallels notwithstanding. It wouldn’t surprise me however, if Dan and Dave had some inkling of the Buddhist angle when imagining Bran. Whether or not that’s true, I’ve really appreciated it. And I thought Isaac’s performance was excellent.
As an aside, I remember watching the 6-hour film made from Peter Brook’s 9-hour theatrical version of the Mahabharata in the eighties, played by an international cast, and many parts have stayed with me through all these years. It had a profound impact, strange and sprawling story though it was. The power of these stories pulls on our souls, so to speak, and the best ones, in their various morphing versions over time, continue to have relevance – and meaning – in our lives.
Well, Cindy, as long as you’ve read the Hibberd book and thought it was very well done… why not share some highlights with the rest of us? 😬
Dame of Mercia,
”…I found myself thinking of a piece of doggerel that was doing the rounds when I was a child, a parody of the chorus about Daisy on a tandem.
“Daisy, Daisy, the coppers are after you
If they catch yer they’ll give yer a month or two,..”
————
And now you’ve got me flashing on a parody of a nursery rhyme about another duo:
Jack and Jill went up the hill
Each with a buck and a quarter.
Jill came down with two-fifty.
– Andrew 🎲 Clay
I tried to use the forums again today and had no luck. I’ve sent a message to the folk running the site but it might take a while for the form to be orocessed.
Northern Breeze,
I thought about The Mahabarata after the first airing of ‘The Spoils of War’. I thought pf the saying quoted by Robert Oppenheimer of atomic bomb fame “I am become death” (though I have heard that may not be an exact translation from the original). That version of the Mahabarata can be found on YouTube still I believe.
Ten Bears,
Seems like Jill was more astute financially than Daisy!
I think there were some gremlins when I made my 10:46 (American time) a.m. comment. I meant to say ‘processed’ not ‘orocessed’ (which I don’t think is a real word).
Tron79,
”I stumbled into the perfect transition this morning into Cyndi Lauper’s True Colors. I am showing the scene when the brotherhood sells Gendry to the red woman and at the end the red woman takes Arya’s face and says she sees blue eyes etc and a darkness in you…”
You’ve done it again, Tron79!
The song lyrics describe Melisandre addressing Arya (“You with the sad eyes…”) and what she sees ( “the darkness inside you” ).
P.S. With Maisie Williams’s “very expressive eyes” and “wonderful eyebrows” (- Lady Crane) and emotive skills, there are so many scenes I can think of off the top of my head in which Arya has those “sad eyes” on display:
Holding Needle on the Braavos dock (S5); the way she looks at Gendry when he mentions “Lord Stark” (S2e2?); “how do you sleep?” conversation with Yoren (S2); looking up at Sandor (S8e5); reunion with Meryn F*cking Trant in S5e10…
Okay, maybe not that last one. 🤔
Yeah, we are thinking alike! I am exporting all of the scenes you mentioned now. I was thinking the same thing. (Except the last one). I’m going into some faceless man stuff next… I’m working through how Arya lost so many important people in her life… I’m working on Jaqen next, even though he really didn’t die, but she thought he did and she didn’t want someone else she cared about to leave her…
Anyway, I’m letting it develop organically, and I will see where the clips and music lead me… It will definitely have her goodbye to “Sandor” before he leave to kill the Mountain. I’ll see where the video ends up leading…hard to say yet… but I like it so far. I’m sticking to all Cyndi Lauper except for Aurora’s Running with the Wolves which so far has only partially popped up here and there… It’ a recurring song, and eventually I might get to the running part…
Tron79,
OH, and Cyndi’s Pigeons song worked absolutely fricken perfectly!! I won’t spoil it…you will see when the finish video arrives…(who knows when though…it could take a little while to let it develop…)
Ten Bears,
OMG, I found my ending (I’m not close to the end yet…)
Cyndi Lauper’s “HEADING WEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
(And I’m heading West without a sad goodbye….)
And it’s an awesome song too.
Tron79,
FYI/Misc.: Maisie Williams & Cyndi Lauper
I’m embedding links to two other live renditions of “True Colors” in 1986 and in 2009.
– During my recent excursions in the Cyndi Lauper YouTube rabbit hole, I have yet to find a bad performance, or any instance in which she has lip-synched her songs, at any time over the past 37 years (1983-2020).
– I admit I had been disarmed by her seemingly ditzy personality and bouncy upbeat songs. I’m now realizing she’s really an excellent singer. It shows, especially on the softer ballads. I had not appreciated that until recently.
– From pictures and videos of Maisie Williams’s post-GoT experimentation with various hairstyles and pink, blue, purple, orange, blonde, and two-tone hair coloring, I’ve noticed that there are photos and videos of Cyndi Lauper sporting the same spectrum of hairstyles and colors.
I’m not suggesting MW is a copycat. If anything, it shows they are both convention-defying, artistically creative style icons. At some point I sort through and match up their similar looks.
In the second clip below (from 2009?) Cyndi Lauper jokes about her changing hair colors.
“True Colors” – Cyndi Lauper live, 1986, on Late Night with David Letterman (4:16 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYD7CzdPPN0
—-
“True Colors” – Cyndi Lauper live circa 2009
(4:47) playing a dulcimer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUVcULOQPqc
In the introductory portion, she mentions the slightly different versions of the song she’s played throughout the years, and jokingly blames it on her hair colors:
0:23 “It’s always a little different, because I forget… get a little older. Not dementia… Might have to do with the hair color. Need to stop.”
👸🏻👩🏻🎤
Tron79,
I have never heard this song. I will give it a listen.
I’ve also got in my “To Listen” queue a couple of videos from Cyndi Lauper’s time as lead singer of a group (called Blue Angel, I think) in 1980 or so, before her solo career and break-out 1983 album “She’s So Unusual.” I did not recognize her at first when I previewed those videos.
I never would have been sucked down this rabbit hole had I not stumbled upon that video of her rehearsing and recording her part in “We Are the World” in January, 1985.
Enforced isolation has given rise to new Covid Seclusion Pastimes, including watching music videos on YouTube.
Musical Interlude
Election Day Edition
Though I am not the biggest fan of Cher’s song,
“If I Could Turn Back Time,” here’s a dynamic performance of it at the Kennedy Center Honors tribute to Cher in December, 2018 by… Cyndi Lauper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhWaVE6w-xY
Not too shabby when you can get Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts on his feet and clapping along (at 2:53), as well as Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (at 3:05-3:10).
There’s also a bit of banter at the beginning between Cher in the balcony and Cyndi Lauper on stage.
Ten Bears,
Correction!
Wrong link above at 6:27 pm.
This should be the right one (Kennedy Center Honors)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quMSK1Q0sN0
—-
Ten Bears,
what? you expect me to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak? oh ok . Guess its one way of keeping me away from the news…..
First thoughts: was impressed immediately with how respectful Hibberd was with everyone he interviewed, from all parts of the show, and with how objective he managed to be despite (or maybe because) of how much he knew the show. It would have been very easy for him to have just praised everything to the hilt, but he saw the difficulties and the low moments. Also he keeps himself out of the story and lets the actors et all answer the questions he puts to them with little of his own interpretation
Finally he managed to answer or attempt to answer questions we all had, and managed to make it all interesting, even though I was very familiar to much of the commentary already.
Now – its been about a week since I read it, and I’d like to reread it and see if I can come up with anything coherent that might make my point better. Stay tuned
Ten Bears,
Great musical interlude! I’m all nerves right now 🙁 Loving all the Cyndi Lauper music!
Yeah, some of the content (from D&D, GRRM, writers, directors, actors, crew) comes from already published interviews (which makes sense — on Twitter, Hibberd explained it wouldn’t make much sense to ask the same questions he already had before) or states what has already been said. I think the big things for me came from GRRM and on three of his twists and what they are: the origins of Hodor’s name and how we learn of that being a bit different, that Stannis decides to burn Shireen however that goes down, and who ends up on the Iron Throne.
I think other interesting stuff for me was the behind-the-scenes stories and the making-of-details. Just how much work went into the spectacles we saw. What an incredibly intense experience that lasted for a decade.
As some of the commenters here have been linking YouTube videos I’m enquiring whether they have noted something of an increase in the numbers of adverts playing on YouTube of late. I haven’t had the ‘divi’ woman recently but one of my current pet hates is the woman who tells me that if I run I team I have to use Monday.com. I find myself saying “I don’t HAVE to do anything” – childish I know. And don’t get me started on that woman promoting “fiverr”. I’ve downvoted those adverts multiple times but now YouTube has stopped giving me the option to downvote the advertisements. I know YouTube needs to get finance from somewhere but why keep showing me advertisements I clearly have no interest in? Maybe the algorithm isn’t everything it’s cracked up to be. Sorry for the rant, I know it has nothing to do with Arya and Gendry.
Dame of Mercia,
I’m not sure what browser you’re using but have you tried an Adblock extension for your browser? I’ve had no problem with ads (on YouTube, at least) when I have it on 🙂
It’s a step up from the Cyndi Lauper appreciation thread derailment 😉
I know what you mean about Youtube. The more popular it gets, the more advertisements start showing up. I can’t even listen to an entire song on Youtube without it being interrupted by at least one commercial, usually two.
The more we try to get rid of ads, the more they show up. It’s unfortunate.
Adblocker helps, but then advertisements started evolving by changing from ads to “sponsored content”.
Dame of Mercia,
”As some of the commenters here have been linking YouTube videos I’m enquiring whether they have noted something of an increase in the numbers of adverts playing on YouTube of late.”
Most definitely. I have noticed over the past few weeks an increase in the number of ads playing before YouTube videos start – as well as interrupting in the middle of songs! How rude! Does everything in this world have to be monetized to death? 😡
On the bright side, I am hoping that the frequency of ads will decrease now that the election is over.
[Correction: now that the election campaigning is over. Now we’re going into Phase II: Counting the votes vs. preventing vote counting; and Phase III: Lawyers and lawsuits to have the courts decide who wins.
Can the Queen take us back? 🇬🇧 It seems the colonies’ experiment at independence and self-governing has not worked out.]
Mr Derp,
”It’s a step up from the Cyndi Lauper appreciation thread derailment 😉”
Hey! It’s not really a derailment. We’ve been suggesting songs for Arya highlight montages, and Gendry & Arya soundtracks.
Besides… Sharing music video recommendations is a welcome diversion for many of us who’ve been in seclusion for the past eight months, and probably will remain in isolation for the foreseeable future thanks to Orange Walder.
“It’s a hoax! It’s not so bad. 99% of people don’t get sick. Pop some hydroxychloroquine or mainline Lysol if you do. Forget Grandma; save the Dow. Thin the herd! I mean herd mentality. I mean herd immunity! 250,000 dead and counting? So what. It is what it is. Winter is coming! People are saying it’s going to be deadliest winter in history.
Valar Morghulis, losers!
Mr Derp,
Well okay then. Today’s forthcoming Musical Interlude will be more focused on Gendry & Arya, and Joe Dempsie’s comments about the characters’ and actors’ age differences.
…and then maybe we’ll get back on track with the “Cyndi Lauper appreciation thread derailment.” 😬
P.S. Speaking of age differences… Can you believe that when she performed at the Kennedy Center Honors tribute to Cher in December, 2018 (link to video in my comment last night at 6:50 pm), Cyndi Lauper was 65? She still sounds, moves and looks amazing. Maybe she’s got one of Melisandre’s Red Priestess red ruby chokers or something…
Maybe she’s born with it, maybe it’s R’hllor blood sacrifice… 🙂
(May the Lord of Light have mercy with ads….)
Adrianacandle,
I don’t have Adblock on my current laptop. I had it before on a desktop computer but
In my previous experience on a laptop it slowed things down quite a bit. Like at one time I downloaded Audacity to change file formats but it was very intensive of memoru.
Yeah, it is kind of a memory hog (this is why I had to get rid of Grammarly — it kept freezing my browser whenever text fields popped up). Mr Derp is also right that ads keep finding loopholes to bypass adblockers…
I don’t know if you want to spend money but I think YouTube premium includes an ad-free option? Yet it’s also £11.99 per month (about $20 CAD/month), which I think is… really expensive for that and more than double what I pay for Amazon Prime (which includes Prime Video and Amazon series).
Ten Bears,
Just having a little fun TB 😉
I doubt this is your kind of music, but here’s the amazingly talented Tatiana from Jinjer singing a song that somehow manages to be part reggae, part rock, and part heavy metal.
She’s like the Cyndi Lauper of metal 🙂
Mr Derp,
I try not to be a genre snob.
I have never heard of “the amazingly talented Tatiana from Jinjer.” Based on your recommendation, I will certainly check out the music video you linked.
Mr Derp,
Hey! That was some pretty high energy stuff? Tatiana? She can sure do the howling… and then the nice voice on the reggae-tinged portion.
Ten Bears,
A video update…
My “Arya Pigeons” video is up to 35 minutes now!!! It very well could be an hour! I’m not sure if anyone will watch a video that long, but I’m going to keep going… I have to write an update here since it could be awhile before I post the video… It’s going through all the important people in Arya’s life who she lost or who left her with the recurring Cyndi Lauper Sally’s Pigeons song and other Cyndi songs.. I worked on the beginning of the Sandor section last night. I have the entire Chicken scene from Two Swords. It’s awesome in hi res… I thought of the perfect Cyndi song for Sandor and Arya “Time After Time”
“If you’re lost you can look and you will find me
Time after time
If you fall, I will catch you, I’ll be waiting
Time after time
If you’re lost, you can look and you will find me
Time after time
If you fall, I will catch you, I will be waiting
Time after time”
I only played my music at the very beginning of the Chicken scene before they entered the tavern and then I just played the original soundtrack since it’s so perfect. I have several Sandor scenes that helped Arya learn the way things are and finally she will have to say Goodbye to him as he goes to kill the mountain… Today will probably be a Sandor day for the video to get all of the clips the way i want them before her Goodbye…
I could send a teaser of the first 3 minutes or so, but those don’t have Sandor, but you could get the idea, but it’s hard to figure out where to stop for the teaser… How many minutes do you want and I could just cut it off abruptly at that point…It probably needs to be at least 3…. it goes into Gendry when he leaves her and the Red Woman tells her she has darkness in her…. then it goes into Cyndi’s True Colors when Arya plays the game of faces (for lying..goes with True Colors doesn’t it!) and gets beaten with a stick alot, but then she loses her friend Jaqen (she thinks)…… then it’s the red wedding…. it’s alot of trauma!! The chicken scene was the first time we got a breather of Arya having such a hard time…
Tron79,
I have not been this excited by a teaser since pre-S8 Winterfell Crypts.
And I love your idea for “Time After Time.”
Musical Interlude:
for Gendry
”[Joe] Dempsie admitted that, initially, the prospect of Gendry and Arya becoming an item made him uncomfortable.
“It was an odd transition purely because I’d seen Maisie grow up,” he said. “I’d met her when she was a child and, during the course of the first three seasons, it was something I was asked regularly because [Martin’s] books suggest there’s a possible romance. It always made me slightly uncomfortable.”
***
”To be clear, he found filming their actual sex scene “absolutely fine” because, well, Maisie Williams wasn’t a child anymore.”
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/26/0c/96/260c967fdfffbb8734f62a3d124d5530.jpg
🎶”A younger girl
Keeps rollin’ across my mind.
No matter how much I try,
I can’t seem to leave her memory behind.
……
And should I hang around,
Acting like her brother?
In a few more years,
They’d call us right for each other.”🎶
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSDj1y5UnaM
– John Sebastian/The Lovin’ Spoonful
“Younger Girl” (1965)
🔨🦌
Ten Bears,
Man, I may have to include a little bit of various parts like a real trailer so you can see some Sandor in there….. Well, I have to do some actual work for awhile this afternoon, but I’m free tonight to work on it!
Tron79,
Please. Take your time. I have “actual work” to do too (that I should be doing instead of listening to YouTube music videos and posting Musical Interludes… 🤫)
Well, so it is. Thank you!
Yes, that scorched battlefield and the new weapons, warriors, and awesome power involved could easily invoke images of the Mahabharata, I can see that. The Spoils of War was one of my favourite episodes.
(Continued from Musical Interlude
at 1:15 pm above)
Prelude to Musical Interlude
for Gendry, Part 2 🦌🍯👸🏻
• Excerpt from Arya’s inner monologue in “A Feast for Crows” about why her hair was a mess:
Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.
• Joe Dempsie (Gendry), from posted article, about Maisie Williams (Arya) as a child in S1-S3 vs. a grown woman in S8:
Joe Dempsie: “It was an odd transition purely because I’d seen Maisie grow up,” he said. “I’d met her when she was a child…
… [Martin’s] books suggest there’s a possible romance. It always made me slightly uncomfortable.”
…[F]ilming their actual sex scene [was] “absolutely fine”because, well, Maisie Williams wasn’t a child anymore…
“When we were doing season eight, Maisie was a grown woman…”
________________
Musical Interlude, Part 2
for Gendry 🦌🍯👸🏻
🎶Well the first time that I met you,
you were only seventeen
But I had to put you down,
because I didn’t know where you’d been
You had a long black dress,
Your hair in a mess,
You didn’t seem to have no class
But the look on your face
Was no disgrace
I knew I had to move real fast.🎶
…..
🎶Well the second time that I met you,
you were just turned twenty-one
And all your talk about love, love,
was gone, long gone.
Honey child
Don’t you know you drive me wild.
Oh honey child,
Don’t you know you drive me wild.
Just about to lose my mind!🎶
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPfLI8M81BY
• “Honey Child” (1976), Bad Company (audio)
…………………………..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsYEQiP4208
• “Honey Child”, Bad Company
live at Wembley Stadium in 2010
Ten Bears,
##TEASER 1 of Arya’s Pigeons###
Here are the first 7 minutes!! Even the teaser is long! This one doesn’t have Sandor. I may export just the Sandor part for teaser 2 once I finish some of the transitions… but this should give you an idea of where I’m going with this… The actual video is up to 50 minutes now, and I’ve just started on her journey with Jon/Needle/Syrio… so it’s going to be at least an hour…
i just came back after a long period with not enough sleep in order to see where this thread would have gone: a) topic related b) music interlude c) season eight sucked and stole the vote.
what a nice surprise you have left here for me to find! i definitely have to check more of their stuff. if they keep the promise they make with this artsy piece of musicsal quoting, they might be my thing.
anyway, i want her in a duet with Oxbow’s Eugene Robinson.
my last information here on the only war that matters right now is that Sleepy Aemon flipped Shitgibbon Geoffrey somewhere around the Fingers. good. sleep might be waiting for me sometime in november… MET isn’t the time zone you want to be in when you’re a news on salvation addict.
without having read anything after the comment i quoted, i bring my own music interlude right here and now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SePVnOd_Q7s
no music lifted me up like this the past few months. and eff me, what a band have i ignored?! i used to be a music addict once…
here’s the official video for it, delivering the message much clearer. and hell, did i need that message! by beginning of the month, i had sunk down to clicking videos of whales being saved from shores just because the disease and the shittiest war that ever mattered occupied my mind nearly completely and i needed ANY way out of there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkF_G-RF66M
unity! and, stay healthy!
Tron79,
I just watched your ~ 7 minute teaser trailer for (what I think you’re titling) “Arya’s Pigeons.”
Fabulous!!! A fooking masterpiece!
Initial thoughts:
– I was impressed that the song “soundtracks” you used came out so crystal clear, and didn’t drown out the scenes’ original sound effects and dialogue. (That must be a challenge to come up with the right balance, e.g., modulate the volume.)
– I have rarely rewatched Ned’s beheading scene, partly because it was so shocking the first time and mainly because young Maisie really sold Arya’s grief and sorrow.
The moment of Ned’s beheading (with what I assume is “Sally’s Pigeons” in the background) was exquisite.
– You really nailed it, synchronizing the music and lyrics of “True Colors” (“sad eyes” and “darkness”) to the scene of Melisandre looking into Arya’s eyes and telling her “I see a darkness in you.”
– After watching the excerpts of sad-eyed, traumatized Arya set against melancholy music and lyrics… it’s made me more anxious to watch a montage of Arya going full-on avenging angel
with “Girls Just Want to Have Fun” playing in the background. 👸🏻🥳
– A side note: Watching the teaser reminded me why I never felt, as some viewers did. that Arya had descended too far into psychopathy with her vengeance spree.
If anything, it made me flash back to Sansa repeating back the “lesson” imparted by LF: “There is no justice in this world unless we make it.” Nothing like seeing Arya dispensing justice so that smug d*****bags such as MFT, Polliver, Walder Frey, et al got their richly deserved comeuppance.
… Lemme go watch your teaser again.
Thanks… I’m still playing with the volumes at the end with “True Colors”… I think it’s a bit loud still, so yes, I play with bringing the volumes up and down. I increased the natural dialogue volume quite a bit in place to bring it out more..
So Episode 2 will be “Vengeful Girls Just Wanna Have Fun”… I do have all of the GOT episodes downloaded I need for all of those kills!!
I still have a ways to go to finish episode 1… I’m calling it an episode, since it will be at least an hour!! I’m taking a bit of a break, because I got to the point today where I felt impatient and want to rush to end it, but I have to see where it naturally goes…
The Sandor section is pretty cool if I do say so myself and you will get to see the entire Chicken scene again in a decent hi res! There are some scenes I didn’t include, but I can’t put everything in or it will be a two hour episode!! I left out when she left him to die, but he does mention it when they ride on horses in season 8… I was trying to show the scenes when she learned her lessons about “how things are” and how she got colder and colder, hence Cyndi’s song “The World is Stone” worked perfectly!! There really is a Cyndi Lauper song for everything!!! I’ll include the Cyndi video below.. . I did get to her “Sandor Thank You”… I didn’t play the pigeons song for her goodbye. It wasn’t the same sadness. I still had Time After Time playing softly… Sandor had her back again…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwc85qWFoqU
Lyrics:
Stone, the world is stone
It’s no trick of the light
It’s hard on the soul
Stone, the world is stone
Cold to the touch
And hard on the soul
In the gray of the streets
In the neon unknown
I look for a sign
That I’m not on my own
That I’m not here alone
As the still of the night
And the choke of the air
And the winner’s delight
And the loser’s despair
Closes in left and right
I would love not to care
Stone, the world is stone
from a faraway look
Without stars in my eyes
Through the halls of the rich
And the flats of the poor
Wherever I go
There’s no warmth anymore
There’s no love anymore
So I turn on my heels
I’m declining the fall
I’ve had all I can take
With my back to the wall
Tell the world I’m not in
I’m not taking the call
Stone, the world is stone
But I saw it once
With the stars in my eyes
When each color rang out
In a thunderous chrome
It’s no trick of the light
I can’t find my way home
In a world of stone
November 3rd: The Long Night
Melisandre lights Dothraki arakhs – polls telling us Biden had a 1.9% lead in Florida polls
Dothraki charge; wights & giants emerge from the darkness – Cubans go hard for Trump
Dothraki get decimated, lights out – Trump pulls ahead in Florida, finishing at 3.3% lead
Someone here with some editing skills, please make a joke of this with the accompanying captions.
But in all serious, seven hells! That was a wild and LONG NIGHT, wasn’t it? When the results came in for Florida, Ohio, Iowa, and Texas, me and my parents were distraught; it was gonna be 2016 all over again. They went to bed, I stayed up (despite having to work the next day) because I noticed that Trump’s margins of victory in many states with working-class whites often weren’t nearly as strong as before, and that Trump got slaughtered in Minnesota and New Hampshire was encouraging. And unlike my parents I understood that the mail-in ballots were going to come later in many states. I held out for a miracle to the morning light, and sure enough, by the crack of dawn, the tide had began to shift against Trump, and now days later, it’s a full-blown riptide/maelstrom that’s drowning him, and all he can do is flail helplessly and desperately as it does so.
Tron79,
• ”So Episode 2 will be “Vengeful Girls Just Wanna Have Fun”… I do have all of the GOT episodes downloaded I need for all of those kills!!”
Far be it for me to fiddle with your storyboarding process… Since I like the perverse juxtaposition of Arya killing bad guys with the bouncy melody and lyrics of “Girls Just Want to Have Fun,” I can’t help but picture the snippet of Arya unexpectedly bursting into hysterical laughter (upon being offered condolences because “Lady Arryn died, three days ago”) in the scene outside the Bloody Gate in S8e4, as either a prelude to the killing montage, or punctuating each one.
I think there are even a couple of points in the song when Cyndi Lauper injects song-songy “hiccup laughs.” (It’s hard to describe them; they may be more pronounced in the song “She Bop.”) It’d probably be too cheesy to include jump cuts of Arya laughing into those “hiccup laughs” in the song. I guess it’s just that I still get a kick out of that scene of Arya hysterically laughing .. first as a surprising reaction to hearing about her aunt’s death; and then amplified when she looks up at Sandor’s disappointed expression (i.e., yet again, another long journey to collect a ransom on his traveling companion ends in futility 😆.)
• ”There really is a Cyndi Lauper song for everything!!!”
Yes! I have been surprised to learn that she’s got so many songs in so many genres over the past forty years. Until my 2020 quarantine diversion sent me down musical rabbit holes, I had only vaguely remembered listening to a few of her hit songs from the mid-1980’s, along with her distinctive vocals on a few seconds of the USA for Africa “We Are the World” megacollaboration in 1985. I also got taken in by the ditzy persona she affects in the “Girls…” video, and had forgotten – or never realized – how good her vocals are on her other songs, e.g., “Time After Time,” “True Colors,” and “All Through the Night.” I had not seen any videos of her excellent live performances of those songs either, until finding them on YouTube, along with many other songs I had never heard before.
I had no idea she has been continuing to perform and release new material since she first made a big splash in 1984-1986. I also did not know that she’s held in such high esteem by her musical peers. Finally, I can’t think of many singers who still sound just as good as they did forty years ago. (That’s why I was blown away by her rendition of “If I Could Turn Back Time” at the Kennedy Center Honors tribute to her friend Cher. 65 years old? Really?)
Enough fanboying. It’s just good to know that there’s an extensive playlist out there for GoT videos. 🙂
Tron79,
…And of course I’ve never heard of “The World is Stone” – until now.
Farimer123,
Pollsters? I can hear Joffrey’s voice:
“Ser Illyn… bring me their heads!”
Farimer123,
”Melisandre lights Dothraki arakhs – polls telling us Biden had a 1.9% lead in Florida polls
Dothraki charge; wights & giants emerge from the darkness – Cubans go hard for Trump
Dothraki get decimated, lights out – Trump pulls ahead in Florida, finishing at 3.3% lead
Someone here with some editing skills, please make a joke of this with the accompanying captions.”
I took to heart the advice of ex-GOP strategist/Lincoln Project co-founder Rick Wilson, who had cautioned that a few points lead in Florida polls (e.g., 1.9%) was meaningless. His rule of thumb is that a Democrat has to be ahead in the polls by 10 points to have a chance on Election Day because the opposition in the state has a better ground game and is so adept at suppression and other shenanigans, while the local blue team is clueless and too readily chases after shiny objects.
As that noted political theorist Sandor Clegane might say, the blue team is too kind; they just
don’t understand “the way things are.”
I didn’t either…I was searching Cyndi’s songs for something that would fit and stumbled on it…. I ended up using “Heading West” for Arya’s scenes with Lady Crane! since that’s where she says she wants to go west of westeros… She won’t be heading off on the boat at the end of my episode 1… I’m having trouble getting “running with the wolves” to fit with the No one chase..but I’m only using part of it, and then will go to the end when Arya takes needle and slices the candle…Then I will have Flashbacks of Needle starting with Jon giving her needle, and talk with Ned, some Syrio, and then another Pigeon song when Syrio tells her she must go… I think I know my final scene of the episode…. Oh, and I have one other sequence with Arya showing her concern for her father asking if they will protect him from getting killed…and then I will flash to Arya protecting Jon and warning her against Dany, since she knows a killer when she sees one…. anyway, it’s part of her character and at least Jon took her warning..she didn’t get as lucky for her Father…… I’m taking another break since I’m stuck on the No One chase.. .Just when the song gets fast, she ducks into the bath house, and “Running with the Wolves” is a bit hard to cut up into pieces and make work, but I’m trying…
2020 American elections: the most slow burn TV season ever.
I’ve been watching the counting on CNN since tuesday. The first results were discouraging, but when Biden surpassed Trump in Wisconsin and Michigan, it seemed clear to me that he would win this election. He may reach perhaps 306 EC votes, the same number Trump collected in 2016.
I’ve seen Trump speech from the White House yesterday. It was perhaps the most shameful thing I’ve ever heard by a leader of a democratic country in my lifetime. I’ve felt a bit sorry for the people who had to endure four years of it and some contempt for those who support him.
After all, Trump, who constantly whines about winners and losers, will be a one term president. It doesn’t mean that the mark left by Trump will simply disappear. As an outsider, it seems to me that the country is deeply divided.
Farimer123,
”But in all serious, seven hells! That was a wild and LONG NIGHT, wasn’t it? When the results came in for Florida, Ohio, Iowa, and Texas, me and my parents were distraught; it was gonna be 2016 all over again…”
Every four years the TV news election coverage departments tell us they’re going to improve their reporting to avoid “calling” races too early.
Especially with the unusually high percentage of mail-in ballots this year, and the absurd requirements in some states like Pennsylvania that those already-received mail-in ballots can’t even be opened and processed until Election night, TV news reporting of “results” (with glitzy red and blue maps, and graphics with vote totals and proportionate percentage shares) was deceptive.
Your reaction “when the results came in” Tuesday night was understandable – but news coverage could have been avoided creating premature – and false impressions, had they not been so anxious to report results as if announcing a horse race.
Most significantly, the pre-election sliming of mail-in voting by Orange Walder and his gang necessarily meant that red team fans would disproportionately opt for in-person voting, while pandemic-wary blue team fans would be more likely to vote safely by mail.
This disparity, along with the unusually high number of mail-in ballots this year, was no secret. The TV pundits and forecasters knew this in advance. They also knew it would take time to process and report those mail-in ballots.
I’ve got friends and family on both teams. We were all exasperated that the leads on Election Day vanished overnight. Without emphasizing the deceptiveness of the Election night totals and unreliability of the flashy graphics, the news coverage did us all a disservice. Unfortunately, it has also been used to spin false narratives about “rigging.”
(Meanwhile, I have not checked the latest updates today. Has Orange Walder been evicted from Riverrun?)
– Apologies for the off-topic rant – 🤥
Tron79,
”Oh, and I have one other sequence with Arya showing her concern for her father asking if they will protect him from getting killed…”
Not that this belongs in your storyboarding; I’m just reminded of one example of what I call “mirror image” scenes, and in particular, one of many “Sandor = unNed”/pseudo-father sets of scenes I’ve identified (whether they were deliberate by the show writers, or purely coincidental):
In S1 (after Ned’s leg is speared by one of Jaime’s goons), a hobbled Ned limps into a room to tell Sansa and Arya he’s sending them both back to WF. Arya’s immediate reaction is concern for her father.
Arya asks him [something like]: “Is it because of your leg? Are you going to die?”
Fast-forward to S4e10, when Arya comes upon a gravely injured Sandor with a fractured leg, and asks him: “Are you going to die?”
Ten Bears,
Hummm. Good parallel. I’ll replay the scenes
Oh, there are many more parallel scenes – as if Arya’s scenes with Ned were re-enacted with a “Bizarro Ned,” if you get my Superman comics reference.
Or, similar scenarios played out with a father figure dispensing gentle love or tough love, sometimes with a humorous edge. (Example – Needle scenes: S1 Arya: “It’s called Needle.” Ned: “A blade with a name?”… and hands Needle back to Arya to keep vs. S4e1 Sandor, ”’Needle.’ Of course you named your sword” + S4e5 strikes Arya across the face, then bands Needle back to her to keep.)
At one point I made a list of what I felt were parallel scenes. I’ll look for it. I became convinced they were intentional. Sometimes the visuals – the settings – were nearly identical.
In addition, there were multiple, conspicuous instances in which Sandor posed as Arya’s “father” or she joined in the pretense, and even a stranger asked if they were father-daughter. Examples off the top of my head: S3e9, encountering the pork merchant with the broken down cart; S4e7, inquiry by the mortally wounded farmer (”Are you her father?”); and most prominently, S4e3, Sandor & Arya + farmer & his daughter (Rabbit Stew Sally), starting with Arya fabricating excuses for the behavior of “my father” and then exclaiming at the dinner table, ”Father!”
Ten Bears,
Would the blue team in Florida need a reality lesson from LF?
Just a wake-up call, that’s all.
“Sometimes, when I want to understand a person’s motives, I play a little game”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdpcyovK0ZU&ab_channel=DavosSeaworth
(too long; couldn’t find a shorter one, sorry. It starts at 2′).
Or Cersei?
“Make certain they fear you more than they fear the enemy”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwp2vXaufN4&ab_channel=SniperMage
Hmmm. Tough call, is it not?
“Power is power”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTc8Chvw5k&ab_channel=websitereviewer
But the ultimate lesson:
“Power resides where people believe it resides”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMLa4IeFKHM&ab_channel=GoTSeason2
(Perhaps Trump should watch GoT; take some intensive classes, right now! 😂)
Ten Bears,
I wrote a reply, alas! with too many links and it went straight to moderation purgatory. I doubt it will ever show up.
Point is, the blue team needs some lessons. Littlefinger and Cersei are good teachers.
When I try to understand a person’s motives, I play a little game…
(at 2′).
Ten Bears,
Choosing between LF and Cersei as tutors though can be tough:
“Make certain they fear you more than they fear the enemy”
Ten Bears,
Or
“Power is power”
Simple; brutal; pragmatic.
Ten Bears,
And my favorite: Varys would be the invited star-lecturer.
“Power resides where people believe it resides”.
Though I’m in Canada, I’ve barely been to sleep since Tuesday watching the results and counts and had to crash for like, 20 hours today x_x Is it too soon to feel hopeful that Trump will have to soon start looking at non-White House residences?
I kind of had this moment when Biden pulled a lead in Pennsylvania and Georgia yesterday morning at around this time! 😀
I’m hoping this is a light that won’t go out….
Btw, searching for those videos I stumbled on this compilation of LF, which I think is excellent.
This is why I so loved LF in GoT: they captured his role so well, they fleshed out a character who is no book PoV, yet his lack of morals, cruelty and vengeful desires drove the story for seven seasons while giving lots of food for thought. The political story was the reason I liked GoT so much.
He is greatly missed.
Adrianacandle,
As an outsider, I think Trump would greatly benefit from watching GoT… 😂
Oh, I think that’s assuming Trump has any capability for self-reflection or self-awareness 😉 Why bother with that when he can rant on Twitter and file lawsuits when things don’t go his way? 🙂
I’m hoping, if Biden wins, that’ll help make progress on containing the worsening covid situation… among other things!
Adrianacandle,
About a quarter of a million people died in the US because of the virus and the irresponsible stance of their president. Supposing they came from nuclear families, that’s a million votes less for Trump.
Hopefully this lesson will help them make a farer healthcare system for all.
(hope is the last to die anyway)
Here we’re in our second lockdown. Most of Europe is anyway.
But I insist that GoT might help Trump.
There’s also a crazy rumor going round that Putin will abdicate; allegedly he has Parkinson’s disease.
For some reason, I think this rumor started from Supernatural…
Imagine having to explain to Putin why suddenly the world believes he’ll abdicate: well, Mr. President, there’s a TV show in the US, called Supernatural, and there’s some fallen angels in it…
[disclaimer: don’t know if it’s true though]
It could be the same with Trump: well, there’s a show, with some kings and queens, and a eunuch, and an ambitious piece of * [insert favorite qualification] and they’re struggling over a spiked chair…
Efi,
Oh, I don’t know. I’m not sure how well I could comment on… what would help Trump. I think it’s hard to get inside Trump’s head because I can’t fathom his reasoning at all and he boogles my mind most of the time. If anything can help Trump, it’s not me who’d know! To me, he’s an orange blur of… things that make my head hurt.
As for health care, I’m not sure about that either. But I’m no expert. I had a friend, a Republican, and she was very against government health care programs as she did not trust the government. As a fellow outsider like you, I feel the situation is… complicated. With many different views and variables.
But I’m not a US citizen so I hesitate to comment on things I probably don’t understand down there! I’ve heard several different views on this issue, very different views. Canada’s system works for me well enough at the very least 🙂 But I also had very different views from my Republican friend and different experiences with government.
Huh, that is a crazy rumour! I’m not part of the Supernatural fandom, I had never heard that before!
It’s not just from the election, but over this past year I’ve been thinking about this scene alot:
Tron79,
Imagine if Joffrey had a Twitter… 🙂
You know, I think that scene is probably one of the very rare times Joffrey is the closest to humility that we ever see him. Cersei is trying to school Joffrey on how to do some spin on a bit of an embarrassing situation while Joffrey is acknowledging the less-than-stellar truth of the situation. And also, it’s a bit funny here that he feels pushed to marry Sansa while Sansa is still over the moon about Joffrey. Soon enough, neither will be gung-ho about the idea x_x
*I also wanted to say with my comments on health care, I’m sorry if I stepped on any toes with these comments! I try to tread delicately into areas like these (and I’m also not trying to say all Republicans feel the same/are the same! I only knew one!) but sometimes, I know I can make a misstep — especially in situations I don’t have first-hand experiences with or really understand (as I’m an outsider to these situations). Of course, in an ideal world, everybody would have free access to all crucial resources they needed to live. I’m also made to understand that it’s a complicated situation, one I know I have little understanding of.
Efi,
It could be the same with Trump: well, there’s a show, with some kings and queens, and a eunuch, and an ambitious piece of * [insert favorite qualification] and they’re struggling over a spiked chair…
i think Kim Jong Don once forged an umbrella from the swords of former advisors and adminisration seniors. to bring it on a plane was some struggle…
Jai,
Light bulb for me here ! Quite a long time ago, I had written in some post that Dany reminded me of the mythical figure of Kali (very roughly: both Mother and Hybris and destruction) — without ever realizing how “khalisee” sounded close 😂 Thanks for that !
Adrianacandle,
On another subject i might finish The Subtle Knife today. I have about 50 pages to go. I have been writing cliff notes to myself in my phone along the way. I forgot so many details from my first reading of it, I’m hoping taking notes along the way will help my old brain.
I’m really looking forward to watching Bella Ramsey as Angelica, especially as she gets more antagonistic towards Lyra and Will.
Btw I am taking a break from my arya episode video since if I follow Shabbat rules I’m not supposed to create new things today. I should finish it Sunday or Monday though. I have the rest in my head.
Tron79,
⚠️ Semi-Off Topic
I don’t know if either of these two songs would be helpful for your in-progress Arya videos w/ Cyndi Lauper soundtracks. I had never heard either song before. I read rave reviews of her singing on them though.
The first is from early in her pre-solo career, in 1980.
The second is her rendition of a Joni Mitchell song, “Carey,” in 2000. (I embedded a link to the the video of the entire 1 1/2 hour Joni Mitchell Tribute in case any Joni Mitchell fans are interested.)
• “I’m Gonna Be Strong” (1980)
Blue Angel featuring Cyndi Lauper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrxGMtLTyA
• Cyndi Lauper sings “Carey” at All-Star Tribute to Joni Mitchell (April 16, 2000)
starting at 6:01 of 1:32:46 long video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL20ICiejI4
🎙
Pennsylvania has just been called. Joe Biden will be the 46th president of the United States, even with the eventual court disputes. Good luck to the american citizens for the next four years, with a special mention to those who wander around WotW.
Tron79,
About that Joffrey & Cersei scene..
Cersei provides Joffrey with an “alternative facts” version of his cowardly encounter with Arya and Nymeria, in which Joffrey bravely fought off the beast. Cersei tells Joffrey: “Someday you’ll be on the throne and the truth will be what you make it.”
Sure enough, in early S4 (I think), we see a statue of a proud Joffrey with an arrow-riddled direwolf at his feet. (One of many instances on GoT of an “official account” inverting what really happened.)
The scene of the statue of wolfslayer Joffrey in the background flashed by quickly. I did not notice it at first. I got a chuckle when I saw it upon rewatch.
Compliments to the GoT set designers and artisans.
Thank you Tiago! I’ll always remember I heard it from you first.
And on that note, a special Musical Interlude for today…
Oh Happy Day!
I haven’t heard the Carey one! Her I’m Gonna be Strong song is moving. I don’t think I used it yet. I did download that one. I found one other one I am using towards the end of the episode as she declares to Jaqen she’s going home and for her reunion with Jon. I haven’t figured out yet how much I’m using. It’s in the last section of the episode before the final scene which I won’t tell you until you see it. Here’s the come on home song.
https://g.co/kgs/oTc2QK
Ten Bears,
Oh, what a perfect song!!!!
(And also, thank-you for the news, Tiago!)
To add to Ten Bears’s musical interlude, Dancing in the Street of Philadelphia!
I still need to start my reread! But I am counting the days until HDM S2! I’m also looking forward to Bella Ramsey’s Angelica interact with Lyra and Will! 🙂 What a great November so far!
And I look forward to your Arya video!
Adrianacandle,
Here’s one more…A repeat from a few months ago but it’s appropriate now.
Yep! And those lyrics…! 🙂
Orange Night King just got fired. the Long Night has ended.
i can’t even… drink away my cellar full of beers fast enough. i’m happy for the whole world. it feels like the first deep breath after four years of suffocating.
I thought you meant this….
“Dancing in the Streets” – Martha & The Vandellas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdvITn5cAVc
🎶…There’ll be laughing, singing,
and music swinging
Dancing in the street
Philadelphia, PA, dancing in the street
Baltimore and D.C. now, dancing in the street…🎶
Ohhhh! Very very applicable song!!!
From this one Canadian, my thoughts exactly! 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Somebody else is in a good mood:
https://mobile.twitter.com/cyndilauper/status/1325121803333808128
Adrianacandle,
I had such an epiphany after finishing HDM book two just now…
Ten Bears,
And she’s dancing in the street! XD
Tron79,
I’ll definitely keep your post in mind when I reread!
death by chickenfire,
Trump ain’t no Night King. He’s like Walder Frey, Robert Baratheon, and Joffrey all rolled into one.
Since we are on this trend of uplifting music I thought…what the hell…here is my contribution!
Here is Bishop Briggs with “Higher”
Don’t start the party too early. This has been a pyrrhic victory. Nothing more. Mr. Burns might be gone (well he hasn’t actually left yet…and who knows what he’ll do between now and January 20th, 2021…I can’t see him and his entourage willingly contributing to a smooth transition of power, quite on the contrary I rather expect somekind of “scorched earth” tactics, especially with Stephen Miller planning it.).
Joe “Grandpa Munster” Biden and Kamala “I’ll keep you in jail even if you are innocent” Harris have won nothing more than a lease or a short term rental on the White House. They will face a reduced Dems presence in the House of Representatives, a Republican controlled Senate (probably) a Supreme Court stacked with conservative judges, Republican governors, Republican controlled state legislatures and a country that is more divided, tribalised and at odds than it has been in a long time…
The Pandora’s box Trump (and his ilk before him) has opened won’t be easily closed. The amount of effort required is tremendous and mind-blowing. Nevermind that the countdown to the Midterms has already started. And we remember what happened to Obama in 2010.
Also…and more worrisome to the Democratic Party, they lost a significant portion of the Latino voters and even a concerning amount of support in the Black community, immigrants etc, communities that the Dems have taken for granted for way too long.
This would have been hard enough if it only concerned the US…but we haven’t even mentioned the rest of the world and the state it is in.
Point being, this is no time for self-congratulatory circle-jerks. Complacency and falling asleep at the wheel won’t do. A return “normalcy” is not nearly enough.
Best thing, the Dems need to look really, really closely at themselves. That image in the mirror looking back at them might not be a pleasant one…but it would be a good start.
I hope you all celebrate this day with care. This pandemic doesn’t give us any break. But I’m happy too. I’ve never paid such attention to any US Election. It was good to see Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania turn blue, after Trump’s initial lead. I’ve felt relief above all. I know at least that I won’t have tiresome, divisíve speeches from the White House invadimg my TV and the Internet all the time for the next four years.
loco73,
That was pretty good! Bishop Briggs… Any of her other songs that you’d recommend?
There is a scene in the movie “Charlie Wilson’s War”, towards the end… between Tom Hanks and Phillip Seymour Hoffman (RIP), which I think is relevant to today’s situation, about being Tok certain about things, about being over confident and taking things for granted… nevermind that listening to the background noise, especially in our post 9/11 context always sends chills up my spine…
Ten Bears,
Here is her YouTube channel
https://www.youtube.com/c/thatgirlbishop
One of my favourite so far of her songs is “Dream”…which I first heard in “The Gifted”, the short lived, but for me, awesome series set in the “X-Men” universe:
loco73,
I liked this too!
I see she’s partial to Braavosi hairstyles.
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/82/f9/63/82f9638359f411ce8a99b05645043def–short-brown-hair-arched-eyebrows.jpg
Ten Bears,
I finished my first draft of the Episode 1 video… It clocks in at 70 minutes…
I should have it done by tonight hopefully. I watched it back this morning and took notes at what to change… I think you can really follow Arya’s trauma and how she developed into knowing “how things are” becoming colder. There is a significantly long sequence centering around what needle means to her and how she makes it back home…. I’m excited to finish.. Stay tuned late tonight I think…
don’t worry, it’s still not enough breath to start a party. it’s really just the deep sigh of relief. there is at least the chance some things might get back to a sort of normal. with “four more years!” the hellride to dystopia just would have gained speed. i was eyewitness to the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, and never since then did i feel so encouraged and hopeful.
you make a lot of good and valid points about the obstacles that could make four years of Biden / Harris four years of watching lame ducks. i also agree completely with your mentioning of Harris having been a merciless pitbull.
just, i think exactly this record of Harris’s merciless attitude took the wind out of Trump’s “law and order vs. anarchy” position.
there was one dumb claim left for him, of course. the”radical left socialist” shit. and to be successful with that was a total no-brainer for the Greedy Old Party. it appealed successfully to the fear of socialist regimes rooted deeply in the communities of exiled Cubans. no matter that there has of course never been a “socialist agenda” to see anywhere. just attempts to construct what us europeans would simply call a civilized state…
this gave him the plus in FL i think. when it comes to his gains in latino, asian and black voters i think there’s another factor that has been important. assimilation, and the pressure in one’s environment on the individuum to assimilate.
i know this from here, switzerland, the role model state for successful post-WW2-right-wing-populism. second and third generations of immigrants have a tendency of wanting to be good immigrants by supporting anti-migration standpoints. and the smaller and more rural and more tradition-based their environment is, the higher the pression to assimilate and throw everything over bord that is their identity and history. their parents were refugees and have been discriminated? out of the mind, the young ones go with the discriminators for social acceptance.
imagine being one of three black persons in a 100 person rural community in Georgia. Fux News is on every screen, at any place where people meet in public, and Fucker Carson gives his analysis of the BLM movement. would you speak your mind? you’re glad they accept you some way, and you want to keep at least this bit of peace.
a latino person in an Arizona smalltown where the majority of the 62 inhabitants still think Joe Arpaio is a good guy… would better shut up, right?
this just in order to not get into trouble. but we want more from our social lives. we want to be appreciated as equal members of our environment. and in situations like the mentioned GA and AZ villages, being an active supporter of the candidate who actually wants to supress us can be the way to get this acceptance. “well, he’s got a funny skin colour, but he’s one of us and understands why we want to kick sand into the faces of his colour…”
this pressure to self-humiliate and literally make your history disappear mostly happens to young first-voters. in normal times they would show the rest of the hillbillies the midfinger and move to town. but in times of world wide deadly disease?
i think, Trump’s gain in non male white vote was not based on his “politics”. it was a vote for security in communities where these voters are at least partly accepted.and that is really sad!
there is one thing Biden and Harris should focus on. this is coming back to “no man left behind” and picking up those whom Hillary Clinton called “deplorables” in a spontaneous attack of total night in her head. i was absolutely pro-Clinton back then, but that disrespectful descrition of people in crisis shocked me. like: is having less education and being a hillbilly gun-nutjob a reason to not see a human being in them?
there, she lost the Rust Belt, for sure.
JB and KH must treat these people as “left behind”, because that is what they are. and there the shit hits the fan. without trillions of Gold Dragons wasted on the half-hearted fight against a deadly pandemic, there’d be enough around to start something. better education, better healthcare, better welfare, flipping the energy supply to renewable… all the things we call socialism here in europe. (no, wait…)
this way, it’s not only the constellation of government institutions that could make them the lamest ducks ever with the best will to repair the worst damage ever found at take-over. it could also be the lack of dimes.
still, i’m glad to breathe again.
Efi,
Thanks Efi!
Those scenes you linked with memorable lines by Cersei will provide good images & captions for my planned 2021 GoT Desk Calendar.
I need 365 images and appropriate quotes to go with them. So far the bulk of my saved images and quotes are Arya-centric. I had forgotten that Cersei had quite a few memorable lines.
Tron79,
”I finished my first draft of the Episode 1 video… It clocks in at 70 minutes…”
Is Episode 1 the one you (tentatively?) called “Arya’s Pigeons”?
Earlier upthread you wrote: “So Episode 2 will be “Vengeful Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.” Is that still the plan?
(To be continued… I had typed text of a third question to paste here, but it seems the Lord of Light vaporized it. 🔥)
death by chickenfire,
Thank You, death by chickenfire!
:o)
Tron79,
continued from 2:22 pm
I had been thinking about lyrics from “All Through the Night” and how they might apply to Arya’s time in Braavos, e.g., urged to lose her identity and forget her past life; and (book! Arya) warging a cat, and assuming the alter-ego of “Cat of the Canals.”
🎶All through the night
Stray cat is crying
so stray cat sings back
All through the night
They have forgotten what by day they lack
Oh under those white street lamps
There is a little chance they may see
We have no past, we won’t reach back
Keep with me forward all through the night🎶
However, to use that song and its lyrics would probably be too forced. And I assume a “No One” identity crisis-themed montage would require a third video and more appropriate songs for a soundtrack.
So, never mind. 🙄
LOL…yes she is…
death by chickenfire,
“still, i’m glad to breathe again.”
Absolutely. Agree. Is just that personally, I’d like that to become my regular breathing, not a once in a while sigh of relief. In light of the times we live in, permit me to make the following, simplistic and perhaps overly naive suggestion…maybe it’s time we value ideology less and ideas more.
PS About the fall of the Berlin Wall…yep a momentous occasion. I lived through that and the reunification of Germany…and (unfortunately) a lot more. Heady days when the air seemed full with soo many possibilities. I think that the problems and issues we are seeing today are in large part of how we botched those new beginnings and carelessly wasted the 1990’s…
So, I’m really depressed, because YouTube is blocking my video episode from showing. The only problem it has is with the Two Swords episode! Which is the best one! The rest of the episodes it shows as copyright protected, but it still shows them. But season 4 episode 1, it blocks unless I delete it out! I’m really bummed, because the video is done and I am hoping folks can view it. I don’t want to delete that scene. It’s really important to the video and one of my favorite scenes of the entire series.
Ten Bears,
WATCH THIS WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Arya’s Pigeons Episode. Runtime 70 minutes.
It’s on Vimeo at least temporarily. I can talk more about it later after some of you see it. I hope you enjoy some of the transitions and some of the surprises as much as I do.
Tron79,
Aw really? 😦
Other video producers either insert intermissions or break up a video into two parts to prevent blocking.
Since what you’re doing falls under “fair use” I’d think the content shouldn’t be a problem.
Tron79,
Oh! Just saw your follow up comment at 6:34 pm.
Lemme go watch “Arya’s Pigeons.”…
it wasn’t for length…it was for copyright on the two swords episode…It flagged alot of copyrights but it still said OK to view as long as I don’t monetize it, but Two Swords was blocked by HBO altogether. My guess is vimeo may eventually block it, so hopefully you have time to watch it!
loco73,
Interesting post.
I am waiting until we have actual data from the votes to comment on the Dem voter loss from various groups. What data we have are from “exit polling” and we know that polling has been difficult since recently many wish to be more private on their preferences.
The Cubans and Venezuelans in Miami were never going to vote for Democrats and there are more Venezuelans than in previous years.
There are black men that may have found Biden unappealing and old but the currently reported % are unlikely to hold when the data comes from the actual voting. This is what the activists close to the community believe or what they say. The few they expected to lose were a few Evangical Christian men especially those very very conservative on the role of women. And the odd rapper type that like Trump’s wild lifestyle.
Let us see.
Tron79,
(1) I just finished watching “Arya’s Pigeons.” Thank you Mr. Tron79 for a brilliant video. I’ll always be grateful!
Seriously, it was really, really good! A few preliminary observations:
– As I think I had mentioned, I had never heard the song “Sally’s Pigeons” before. It sounded beautiful- and haunting. I especially liked how you synchronized the lyrics “Sally’s pigeons flying” to the pigeons flying away as Arya’s head was pressed to Yoren’s chest in the scene from “Baelor.”
– You nailed the “sad eyes” and “darkness” lyrics from “True Colors” to the Melisandre & Arya scene.
– Likewise, in the second segment I liked how you matched up “if you fall I will catch you” from “Time After Time” to Sandor protecting Arya.
– Did you also use a portion of “I’m Gonna Be Strong” (Cyndi Lauper’s 1980 pre-solo song) in the third segment?
– Overall – and with no disrespect to Ramin D – the Tron mashup soundtrack enhanced the scenes.
(2) About Episode 2, “Vengeful Girls Just Want to Have Fun,” if it’s still in progress:
– Watching Episode 1 made me think that snippets from Arya’s scenes with Syrio might make a good prelude, as she was smiling and having a good old time learning water dancing; and
– It’s got Arya insisting “I’m a girl!” when Syrio says “You must listen to me, boy.” (She also said “I’m a girl!” in exasperation when Yoren mistook her for Ned’s “son.”) After all, the background song is “Girls Just Want to Have Fun”…..
– Come to think of it, Arya’s kills could also be set up by other “fun” scenes presaging her use of lethal weapons later on, e.g.,
• Zinging the arrow into the bullseye before taking a bow (S1e1 archery);
• Stabbing the table with a knife (S1e2 or e3);
• Sparring with Brienne (S4e7) – using Needle and VS dagger flip, and ending with a smile to kindred spirit/fellow warrior woman Brienne (another “girl who just wanted to have fun”).
• Maybe the blind stick fighting scene with the Waif in S5 or S6? If that was intended to preview her slice-and-dice of wights with her customized spear in S8e3?
I wouldn’t presume to micromanage your scene selection, of course.
🗡👸🏻 🔪
Ten Bears,
Thanks so much for watching! Did you play the credits all the way to the end and hear the HBO sound? I enjoyed adding that sound detail.
I used “I’m gonna be Strong” when Arya had to give up her clothes and coins into the water and she couldn’t bear to give up needle. I enjoyed that section that starts with the flashback special effect that starts with Jon Giving needle and takes her through her father conversation and Syrio. Perhaps my favorite use of music were the two quick excerpts of Dancing with a Stranger when Arya was with training with Syrio. I edited those multiple training scenes like it was all one scene. I think it shows how much needle was part of her identity And her connection to her family. I also enjoyed adding Arya’s thought of worrying about her father with the translucent memory.
How did you like the transition from the waif stick fighting scene right to the battlements scene. The other transition that gets me is her scene talking to Tywin about the young wolf and immediately going to the red wedding music. Oy. That got me.
Anyway I’m glad it was up long enough for some people to see it. Hopefully it will stay up for awhile.
True colors had a dual purpose with the red woman and also the game of faces. But yes everyone sort of had their theme.
Thanks for the suggestions on episode 2. There is a ton of material.
Tron79,
• Because I was worried that the link wouldn’t last, I wanted to make sure I watched the whole video without pausing or rewinding. I’ll have to rewatch to check out the transitions.
To be honest, I was just as squeamish about watching the Red Wedding scene in your video as I was when seeing it the first (and only other) time. Watching Arya’s face go from hopeful excitement to horror before Sandor clocked her on the head was so sad … again.
• Incidentally, I noticed that “Girls Just Want to Have Fun” is about 4:20 long:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A
You mentioned there “is a ton of material” for Episode 2. Do you foresee it exceeding 4 1/2 minutes? If so, are you contemplating other songs to fill out the soundtrack?
No, 4 1/2 minutes would be good. I’m not sure if I can handle another 70 minute episode any time soon! The video is still showing and hasn’t been flagged yet. It’s also showing in 1080p now, where at first it was only 720p. There should be a download option on the video if you want to save it. You may need to open it in vimeo to get the download button.
here’s the video link for others to view or download while it’s still available:
Yes, I agree there are tough parts to watch. It was a way to live in Arya’s shoes as she lived her “origin” story. Batman in comparison lost his parents, but Arya’s losses just kept coming. Hopefully you get a little pit in your stomach when that Pigeon song pops up again and again signaling another loss. I think that last straw for her was when she thought she lost Jaqen. That was when Arya/Maisie really lost it crying that he was her friend. And she totally freaked out when she realized that he was “no one at all” and Jaqen popped up over her shoulder..and then she sees her face before going blind. I also really prefer the ending I chose to season 8’s ending. I think Arya sums up her journey really well about never being a lady and having to become something else. And she was still with her family. It seems like family became very important to her. Watching “The Last of the Starks” episode during this process with Jon revealing his secret and then just cutting away to Arya leaving is still hard for me to accept. I do understand she wanted revenge, but I think Arya’s character was more committed to the “pack” by that point. I can see her going to Kings Landing more for the Starks than for her own revenge. I could accept that she was doing it for her family. So having her leave so abruptly was still tough for me after reviewing so many scenes for this video. She fought so hard to realize she should go back home and help her “pack”, because she was Arya Stark. I could also see her saving Jon from the guilt of killing Dany by doing it herself. I could see her going west for a year sabbatical, but being on raven call if the family needs her, and she would return in a second to help them. I can’t just see her leaving everyone again. That scene with her leaving right after Jon’s reveal makes it feel like she’s given up on the Starks and Jon’s reveal was the last straw. I just don’t feel that from her character growth. She is Arya Stark of Winterfell, and when winter comes the pack survives and all that! She definitely should go west on an extended vacation, but Jon should be able to go with her without having to be stranded up North!!!!
I hope others get to see the video and will let me know what you think about Arya’s character growth. I hope you liked my sequence with Sandor with the song “The World is Stone” following how he taught her the way things are… as she learns to get colder and colder to survive… I guess I take this a bit too seriously, but I enjoy delving deeper into her character even though it’s very painful to watch her go through so much trauma all in one episode! I still like the short “Dancing with a Stranger” sequence with Syrio to lighten the mood some. She really seems like she’s dancing when that music comes on…at least to me…
The Lord of Light put my last comment in moderation, so I’ll try again…
No, 4 1/2 minutes would be good. I’m not sure if I can handle another 70 minute episode any time soon! The video is still showing and hasn’t been flagged yet. It’s also showing in 1080p now, where at first it was only 720p. There should be a download option on the video if you want to save it. You may need to open it in vimeo to get the download button.
here’s the video link for others to view or download while it’s still available:
Yes, I agree there are tough parts to watch. It was a way to live in Arya’s shoes as she lived her “origin” story. Batman in comparison lost his parents, but Arya’s losses just kept coming. Hopefully you get a little pit in your stomach when that Pigeon song pops up again and again signaling another loss. I think that last straw for her was when she thought she lost Jaqen. That was when Arya/Maisie really lost it crying that he was her friend. And she totally freaked out when she realized that he was “no one at all” and Jaqen popped up over her shoulder..and then she sees her face before going blind. I also really prefer the ending I chose to season 8’s ending. I think Arya sums up her journey really well about never being a lady and having to become something else. And she was still with her family. It seems like family became very important to her. Watching “The Last of the Starks” episode during this process with Jon revealing his secret and then just cutting away to Arya leaving is still hard for me to accept. I do understand she wanted revenge, but I think Arya’s character was more committed to the “pack” by that point. I can see her going to Kings Landing more for the Starks than for her own revenge. I could accept that she was doing it for her family. So having her leave so abruptly was still tough for me after reviewing so many scenes for this video. She fought so hard to realize she should go back home and help her “pack”, because she was Arya Stark. I could also see her saving Jon from the guilt of killing Dany by doing it herself. I could see her going west for a year sabbatical, but being on raven call if the family needs her, and she would return in a second to help them. I can’t just see her leaving everyone again. That scene with her leaving right after Jon’s reveal makes it feel like she’s given up on the Starks and Jon’s reveal was the last straw. I just don’t feel that from her character growth. She is Arya Stark of Winterfell, and when winter comes the pack survives and all that! She definitely should go west on an extended vacation, but Jon should be able to go with her without having to be stranded up North!!!!
I hope others get to see the video and will let me know what you think about Arya’s character growth. I hope you liked my sequence with Sandor with the song “The World is Stone” following how he taught her the way things are… as she learns to get colder and colder to survive… I guess I take this a bit too seriously, but I enjoy delving deeper into her character even though it’s very painful to watch her go through so much trauma all in one episode! I still like the short “Dancing with a Stranger” sequence with Syrio to lighten the mood some. She really seems like she’s dancing when that music comes on…at least to me…
Here are the songs and how they are used:
Sally’s Pigeons (whenever something bad is about to happen)
True Colors (The Red Woman and playing the Game of Faces)
Time After Time (Sandor has her back time after time)
Dancing with a Stranger (Syrio the dancing master)
The World is Stone (Sandor teaches Arya the way things are culminating in the scene from season 8 with Gendry and Sandor where she survived by being a cold little b*tch)
I’m Gonna be Strong (When she has to give up being Arya Stark by throwing her things into the water, but can’t give up needle)
Heading West (Sequence with Lady Crane and West of Westeros)
Aurora’s Running with the Wolves… (Lots of times I play bits and pieces of it culminating in the running scenes)
Tron79,
Wow!!! What a video of Arya’s story you created — I can’t imagine how much time this took you!
I think you’ll have better luck with Vimeo. YouTube can get pretty weird with copyright stuff — it’s very unpredictable and feels pretty random. For example: several years ago, I had a friend who was posting 90s clips of ABC’s All My Children from when SMG was on the show in her pre-Buffy days. Her channel lasted for several months before both Disney (who owns ABC) and Sony filed copyright claims against her (Sony because she uploaded a clip with a scene that included a copyrighted song in the background). After three strikes, her channel was shut down permanently. Happened to several other channels like hers too at that time.
But not to others that had uploaded full episodes and with copyrighted songs.
Incidentally, I experienced something bizarre when one of the stock royalty-free music tunes I had used in an early animation during my second year of art school sounded too much like 3 seconds of a tune of a song released by an artist several years later. So that video was flagged.
But other channels are clearly uploading full songs without copyright dings.
It feels pretty random and a consequence of luck of the draw on YouTube.
Yeah the bummer is it’s hard for me to watch on TV on Vimeo. It doesn’t show up in my Vimeo search on my Roku App! I am able to watch it on YouTube if I log in, but I’m the only one who can see it. I will watch it that way on TV.
Yeah, YouTube flagged every other episode as being OK to view but not ok to monetize. It was only that one episode (season 4 episode 1 Two Swords) that HBO blocked entirely, so it blocked the whole thing unless I deleted that segmant. I seem to remember that Vimeo might just take longer to block it! But so far so good.
I was trying to see if there was a fan fiction site where I could upload it. In many ways I changed some of the scenes to fit what I wanted to show. For example, I show Arya running through Winterfell with the wights after she realizes she has to go kill the night king!! It works with the song “Running with the Wolves”, and I figure she probably had to be running again to get away from them to get outside somehow!
It was alot of work, but the process really helped me delve into Arya’s character rewatching all of those scenes. I hope a few others will watch it and let me know what they think. 70 minutes is a big time commitment! And if you’re not an Arya fan, it would be tough to watch!! And even for some Arya fans like Ten Bears it might be tough to watch to see her go through so much trauma.
Tron79,
Hm, I wonder what it is about 4×01 that alerted the copyright sirens? Something in the dialogue? What if you tried flipping the video image for those scenes and tried a YouTube upload again?
But major kudos for putting together a 70-minute video!! In addition to exploring Arya’s character, how did you find the video editing process itself? I know that is a new area you’ve been exploring with your various projects 🙂
I watched half of it! I am saving the other half for later when I can devote eye-time! 🙂 I tried watching the other half when I was working on my projects but I found most of my eye time was spent millimeters from the surface of the rocket-project-which-will-never-end in inspection of imperfections and then trying to fix those imperfections…. which is why it will never end.
Oh, if I never see a sheet of sandpaper again….
I’m getting the feel for Adobe Premiere. I think the editing itself went pretty smoothly. It took time to download the clips. I would find another clip I wanted to use and it was in an episode I didn’t have on my computer. I use PlayOn to download my Amazon prime videos and it works pretty well. I also found a great utility “4K Video Downloader” that lets you paste a YouTube link and it gives you a choice to download the video in any available quality. It worked really great and it was fast. Most of the downloader browser extensions I used to use stopped working and are no longer fully supported, but this is a little program was a life saver!! And I exported the various clips that I wanted from the giant episode file. The video for “The Long Night” was really dark as everyone knows, so I lightened it some. It had some bad artifacting, but it had bad artifacting even when I didn’t lighten it, so I left it that way. I think some could be how PlayOn downloads it. I think Vimeo makes the artifacting (pixelization) worse too. Premiere timeline window is still a bit awkward for me to scroll and find the various matching audio/video bars… It feel constricting. I can stretch it, but the scrolling is awkward. I was proud of myself by layering some of the scenes where you can hear a little bit of the previous scene as the new scene starts… This makes the transitions not seem as abrupt. But I’m not expert like my daughter. It takes me alot longer. But most of the work honestly is just figuring out which clips to use and how the music will match up the best. For this video I really thought more of her journeys instead of staying with linear time. It really jumps around time wise, but it doesn’t bother me because it follows another path in her life all the way through, such as the sequence with Needle going from one scene to the next with Needle being the central theme of that section. I also enjoyed the little flashback sequence after Arya slices the candle and it goes to black…
Thanks for asking, and I hope your rocket project is going well!!
Also, I’m looking forward to HDM discussion soon with the Bella Ramsey GOT tie in.
Tron79,
btw, the youtube videos I downloaded were the Cyndi Lauper songs…
Tron79,
Yeah, I noticed your audio transitions and really enjoyed how you’re experimenting with them!! Especially between music and dialogue! I had wondered if perhaps you’d be interested in exploring the wonderful world of colour grading and applying looks to video to further experiment with expression? You can find some free downloadable Adobe Premiere “looks” here for instance! And about a million tutorials on YouTube! I think it could be a fun dimension to explore!
Yeah, Vimeo does seem to compromise video quality…
I have a link for perhaps some helpful tips that may or may not make editing in Premiere’s interface a bit more comfortable — I’ll include the link in a post after this to ensure it doesn’t get stuck in moderation 🙂
Tron79,
Here is a link for some tips you might find useful to make the interface and audio/video timelines easier to work with? I find I’m also discovering new things about software I’m using (for example, there’s this AMAZING trick in Illustrator where you can space a specified object in perfect exact distances around a non-linear path — like a circle — without doing the math yourself to figure out how far apart objects need to be. Now it’s fun to do instead of a chore! ;D).
The rocket is going…! After I paint the white body of the rocket, I’ll varnish and then finally — finally — assemble. Finally!!
I’ve also been thinking about designing GoT/ASOIAF-themed projects for the laser. Like, I’m doing the weirwood etching as I’ve talked about — but maybe some other stuff! 😀 Direwolf shelf, dragon coat rack, lion biscuit box, kraken soap dish 😉
Omg I KNOW! I am counting the days!!! November 16 for NA and today (lucky Jenny!!!) for the UK!
Tron79,
Link correction! Accidentally posted link to Premiere looks twice. Here is the correct link!
Hummm you tempt me to watch the color grading tutorials! I did delve into a few special effects where I had Arya’s thoughts show up as a transparent video at the beginning of the syrio sequence. And I played with some reverb on one of the flash backs, and it was difficult to make it sound the way I wanted! I think my focus is always going to be on the music and how it fits. As you know I’m a singer and composer, and I enjoy working with the soundtracks and getting it to hit “just right”. It took me time to figure out which of Cyndi’s songs fit the themes, and luckily she had a ton of songs!! One of the last ones I did was “I’m gonna be strong” and that one is really powerful with Arya not being able to throw needle in the water…At first I thought I would end with “Heading West”, but I ended up using it for Lady Crane’s sequence, cuz Arya does talk about going west of westeros. Getting the music to hit certain words or spots in the video was the biggest challenge I guess. Sometimes I got lucky, but most of the time I had to play with it alot. The little start up theme of “Running with the Wolves” was recurring at got my attention.. Most of the time I didn’t have to splice the song and I just had to figure out where to start it to make it hit right. A few times I did splice it to make it work. And I did want to make sure you could still hear the dialogue so I was constantly playing with volume levels. Anyway….
Tron79,
“I also really prefer the ending I chose to season 8’s ending. I think Arya sums up her journey really well about never being a lady and having to become something else. And she was still with her family…”
Oh, absolutely! And Sansa-Arya battlements scene at the end of S7e7 is one of my favorites.
The actresses were at the top of their game, their characters had their best moment together, and their mutual acceptance of each other would’ve made for an appropriate ending.
Also, I loved the affection sprinkled with snark:
Sansa: “…You’re the strongest person I know.”
Arya: “I believe that’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me.”
Sansa: “Well, don’t get used to it. You’re still very strange and annoying.”
[The End]
Tron79,
Yes! I noticed what you did with Arya’s thought-sequences and really enjoyed that! I had used quick “flashes” (really, just a white PSD imported into Premiere that played for a fraction of a section with a really fast fade in/fade out) to try to evoke the transition between memory/present in one of my early early early early videos — but there’s probably a way better way to do that now. Point is, there are so many creative ways to evoke this kind of idea!
I think I used these “flashes” in a very early video I did (one of my first — yikes) that I can show you if you’d like! It’s three and a half minutes long! Basically, because I hate the taste of carrots and wanted to discourage use of carrots in salad and other foods (ugh, Morning Glory muffins!) due to this self-interest, I… tried to frame carrots as the innocent victims of salad, setting it to… Moonlight Sonata. I can email you the link to that if you want to see! (And if anybody else wants to see, I can post a temporary link here!) But uh, you can definitely tell I was new to video editing at the time XD; And the video quality is very student-cam mid-2000s 😉
I hear you on the challenges of getting music/spoken word just right. And you also have far more experience than me in music and composing so I find it a bit of a comfort that I’m not the only one 🙂
Sure I would love to see the carrot hating video 🙂
Tron79,
”But most of the work honestly is just figuring out which clips to use and how the music will match up the best.”
You did a fabulous job of that. Thank you. That must have been painstaking work.
Anti-carrot: a platform I stand for 😉
Seconded! Great work, Tron!
Northern Breeze,
During the late 80s, there was a famous Indian television adaptation of the Mahabharata that has basically become the definitive version for many people who saw it at the time (especially those of us from Indian backgrounds): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharat_(1988_TV_series) . Some dodgy 80s special effects, of course, and there have been a few more high-budget Indian tv attempts since then, but in terms of spot-on casting, acting and dialogue, it’s never been bettered.
There are further implications about the inspirations for ASOIAF/GoT’s characters. There are 5 Stark kids (plus Jon) just like the Mahabharata had the 5 Pandava siblings (plus Karna). Jon Snow clearly has parallels with Arjuna, but there are also elements of Karna (the secret relative who later realises he’s on the wrong side but stays with his monarch due to his sense of honour and loyalty) and Yudhishthira (the king who doesn’t really want the throne after the war is over and just wants to retire to the forest). Greyworm is essentially the Ramayana’s Hanuman. The victors – and supposed heroes – torch the defeated city of King’s Landing, similar to the burning of Troy in the Iliad and the burning of Lanka in the Ramayana; not to mention the real historical examples of the Romans burning Carthage and Alexander’s Greek forces burning Persepolis. There are many other examples too. Interesting stuff.
Coincidentally, a couple of days ago an influential American academic who specialises in ancient and medieval Indian history wrote this superb article about the Mahabharata: https://aeon.co/essays/the-indian-epic-mahabharata-imparts-a-dark-nuanced-moral-vision . It’s quite long, but you should enjoy it. Check it out when you get a chance.
Thanks!! It didn’t seem like it was painstaking, but I will think twice before doing another 70 minute episode…. It takes alot of time to watch the whole thing as I was making final edits. Yes, I could just watch the part I was editing, but I had to make sure I didn’t mess something up somewhere else. I had to “split” the video from the audio in several places, and I had some lip syncing issues that I only discovered when watching back the whole thing.
I have a couple of discussion points from the project. Feel free for others to jump in:
1) Sandor was right. Why wasn’t Syrio carrying a regular sword or at least a dagger? Kings Landing is a dangerous place. It’s like going through the old West without your pistol. And how the 7 hells did he knock out those guards with that wooden sword? yes, he did tackle that one guard, and if had a dagger that would have worked! But he just knocked him silly with that silly wooden sword. Wooden swords don’t work on armor!! And why didn’t he learn that “What does the god of life say to you? Pick up the fricken steel sword!!” As Jorah said, the broadsword was designed for piercing armor. A wooden sword was not.
2) Does it bug you that Arya decided to leave everything and never return after Jon’s reveal? (in last of the Starks). It was like that was the last straw for her and she gave up on her family and everything and decided just to go for revenge. That really seemed like a mistake by the writers to me. Yes, they did need to get her to Kings Landing, and yes it was a wonderful goodbye scene with Sandor, but it goes against her character IMHO. It would have been much more in line with her character to save Jon by first killing Cersei and then killing Dany after she witnesses the monster she had become..so Jon didn’t have to… I think Arya was about the Pack and her family by that time. Arya had the skills now to protect them… So that scene right after Jon’s reveal really bugs me when she decides to leave everything and never come back.
AnnOther,
You’re right, Dany does ultimately end up being a vengeful destroyer who effectively starts thinking of herself as a goddess (“they don’t get to choose”; believing herself as the ultimate moral arbiter of “what is good” etc). The Persian word “Khalis” and its Indian derivative “Khalsa” also have significant historical connotations that echo elements of Dany’s story arc.
I thought this jump was a little jarring too and kind of chalked it up to needing to get Arya to King’s Landing ASAP. Then again, while “the pack survives” and regaining her identity as Arya Stark was a big part of her story, maybe it’s not so much about a full fulfillment of that statement but an exploration of how this may manifest after everything Arya’s been through. That she can’t really (emotionally) return home again. Too much has changed.
I think, while Arya experiences a deep longing to return to her family, revenge was Arya’s primary coping mechanism for pain that didn’t relent, even when she was reunited with her family. That pain didn’t dissipate. I wondered if… perhaps Arya felt home wasn’t really home anymore. This desire for revenge hadn’t stopped until Sandor makes her realize (in 8×05) how damaging revenge also is as well. Even when Arya decided to put off her mission to hunt and kill Cersei upon hearing about Jon regaining Winterfell in 7×02, she still didn’t give up her list. Just put it off. Perhaps Arya’s story also involves those left over scars — that despite coming home and reuniting with your remaining family, it doesn’t fix or satisfy everything. Too much has changed and there are still those open wounds, closure Arya may have felt she needed to get by killing Cersei — the cause of so much pain for her.
That’s just speculation. It would have been nice to see how Arya came to this decision though.
It was both disturbing and awesome at the same time!! I will never eat carrot cake again!
If you want a sad movie with some great “stop motion” in it, take an afternoon and watch “Me and Earl and the Dying Girl”. It’s the best movie in the “teen dying of cancer” genre. (Masie made a movie in this genre (Then Came You), but sad to say her movie is not the best, although I loved watching Maisie). In Me and Earl and the Dying Girl, they make intentionally bad movies. He makes a pretty incredible stop motion one they show at the end…
Ooooh, thanks for the recommendation! (Because it’s that transition time between Halloween and Christmas, the Nightmare Before Christmas soundtrack has been going non-stop in my head).
And thank-you for your comments about that ridiculous short film I made! Oh, that was my first and I think parts of it are definitely… well, I’d do some things differently (like learn how to focus the lens on the right things)… and I cringe at other parts… but I guess that’s all part of the learning process 🙂
But most of all: I am so glad you will never eat another carrot again! 😉
That’s a really good point about using revenge as her coping mechanism! I can see that for sure.
I originally thought perhaps the Starks came up with a plan and Arya agreed to go to KL as part of the plan, but no, none of my great fan theories every panned out. Yes, it definitely would have been nice to see how Arya came to the decision. By this time Arya did have her fair share of revenge. She had killed well over 60 people plus over 100,000 dead people. I think she would have learned from the Waif that personal revenge wasn’t the way. And I’m surprised again by the show that the Waif would have cared about personal revenge. It’s not that way in the books at all. A Faceless woman does not concern herself with such things.. After all, she is no one and doesn’t have those types of cares and wants. In the show, the Waif was resentful and seemed like she thought Arya was not worthy. The Waif failed her own lessons of becoming no one in the show. In the books, she was not that way at all, but they needed a villain for Arya for the show!
I don’t think it was the quantity of revenge but the quality of revenge 😉 No amount of killing could replace killing Cersei. Arya had been gunning for Cersei since the end of season 1, blaming her (and Joffrey) for Lady’s death, the deaths of the Stark household in King’s Landing, Syrio, her father… For so much, events that ripped Arya away from her family and sent her into war-torn Westeros. I think that’d be a hard hard thing to let go of, especially when it was what was driving her for so long. This may be controversial and this isn’t a major issue for me but I was somewhat surprised that Sandor could talk her out of revenge in 8×05 in that scene when she was so close after so long. I mean, I definitely really love the idea of that — Arya coming to this realization — and I’m glad it happened, I definitely love the concept and it was a great scene, but I think it was a bit quick (but I generally give that a pass become of the season and episode’s time constraints too).
I agree with your comments about the Waif though. I believe she was ordered to take out Arya but uh, it seemed more like just an order to the Waif. Definitely seemd personal!
Adrianacandle,
*but I generally give that a pass *because[…]
*Definitely seemed personal!
November, 2020:
🚫 🥕
“Out with the Orange!”
My name is Ten Bears and I approved this message.
I’ve got to say it… br*ll*ant!
Adrianacandle,
”…I tried watching the other half when I was working on my projects but I found most of my eye time was spent millimeters from the surface of the rocket-project-which-will-never-end in inspection of imperfections and then trying to fix those imperfections…. which is why it will never end.
Oh, if I never see a sheet of sandpaper again….”
—-
• What kind of filler, if any, are you using to fix imperfections? Because – not to brag – I have spent years refining techniques for spotting tiny imperfections in wood surfaces and fixing them before (or during) painting.
Elmer’s Carpenter’s Wood Filler, or whatever the product is called now, is an excellent all-around filler (and sanding sealer if you dilute it).
Unscented talcum powder mixed into clear lacquer or clear butyrate dope works really well as a sanding sealer.
Spraying on and sanding off grey + white layers of sandable primer before painting helps to spot and get rid of lingering imperfections…but I’m sure you know this.
I aim for perfectly smooth, mirror-like, high-gloss reflective finishes. Or else, why bother painting at all, right?
• I am sorry to hear that sandpaper is triggering negative emotions. I like sandpaper. I am a sandpaper addict. I buy lots of high quality wet-or-dry sandpaper in all grits whether I need it or not. I can’t stop. Just having it to look at soothes me. (Do they have a 12-step program for people like me?)
I used to spend too much time and too much effort using sandpaper that was way too fine, instead of arming myself with an arsenal of project-appropriate sheets of sandpaper along the spectrum from coarse (#80) to ultra fine (#1000 or higher).
In all seriousness, I’m sure you’re using the right combinations of sandpaper grits to smooth out surfaces on your rocket project.
🚀
Ten Bears,
Ooooh! Thank-you for this post! Right now, I’m painting primed MDF with latex spray paint. I used an oil-based primer to avoid introducing water into the MDF and managed to get a smooth finish. I did try brush on paint but I was getting way too many streaks and whenever I sanded (using 600-1000), it’d end up taking off too much paint so I ended up getting frustrated and resorted to spray paint. Now I paint, apply a few coats, wait 24 hrs, and wet sand with a 1500-2000 grit (600 if some dust or hair got stuck to the paint during the drying process — thanks a lot, cat), remove dust and debris with tack cloth, repeat.
After each piece dries, I hold it up to the light to see if there are any nicks in the paint during drying, but the problems are usually very fine stuck hairs (from a ragdoll cat, cats that have very fine rabbit-like fur — when they shed, they also release those ultra fine floaty hairs in the air. Even though I’m doing this in the garage and she doesn’t go in the garage, her fur is always with me — like a curse) and stuck dust floaties. Using the light to see issues via the reflection off the surface really highlights all the problem areas -_- Then I try to carefully sand before applying the next coat.
Because yes, you’re exactly right when you say: “I aim for perfectly smooth, mirror-like, high-gloss reflective finishes. Or else, why bother painting at all, right?”
(People told me others won’t notice but like that matters! ;D)
I do like sandpaper! Sometimes, when projects are going really well, sandpaper is the best! But this process is just totally exhausting me. And I suck at varnishing — I can never get a totally bubble-free finish (but I recently bought a Gramercy ox-hair brush so I’m hoping that helps… 😩)
I think this is often part of my problem too…
Tron79,
”I originally thought perhaps the Starks came up with a plan and Arya agreed to go to KL as part of the plan, but no, none of my great fan theories every panned out. Yes, it definitely would have been nice to see how Arya came to the decision. By this time Arya did have her fair share of revenge…”
Yeah, Arya suddenly leaving WF unannounced with no intention of returning, felt like it came out of left field – especially after her out of character, Cersei-ish, xenophobic rant to Jon (i.e., “I don’t like your girlfriend; everyone who’s not our family sucks”), and Ned’s lessons that were supposedly drilled into her head (e.g., that the Starks “must look after one another”; and “the lone wolf dies but the pack survives”).
Now, if the show had clarified that maybe Arya decided to go on a lone wolf mission to KL to assassinate Cersei ahead of Team Dany, and thereby avoid the bloodshed and loss of life of armies squaring off in a full-scale assault on the city, that would have been consistent with Arya’s character and wouldn’t necessarily contradict the Stark family “togetherness” theme.
Plus, S8e6 ending with Arya being in such a hurry to go on her sea cruise that she didn’t even have time to hang out with Jon despite his express invitation was… [what’s the word I’m looking for?🤔].
Adrianacandle,
”After each piece dries, I hold it up to the light to see if there are any nicks in the paint during drying, but the problems are usually very fine stuck hairs (from a ragdoll cat, cats that have very fine rabbit-like fur — when they shed, they also release those ultra fine floaty hairs in the air…”
Hint? Depending on the side of the piece, cover it with a large pot or bucket while the paint dries, to protect it from dust, dander, and invisible floating fibers.
You just kind of blew my mind with this (seriously!!) — yes!! I could go to the dollar store and get some inexpensive buckets for this! Thank-you!!! 😀
(Btw, here is the rocket shelf primed, unpainted, and unglued — it won’t have those gaps… I hope… when all glued up!)
Adrianacandle,
Ah! I was going to ask if this was the same rocket you were working on a while back:
IMG_1473.jpg 3,024×4,032 pixels

I think it is.
I am going to find and post links to images of a similar-looking Art Deco style rocket (from “the golden age of model rockets”) and its Miami Beach doppelgänger Art Deco hotel.
Gotta tend to real world obligations now. 😕 To be continued.
Adrianacandle,
Large plastic storage crates (inverted, without the lid obviously) work for drying larger painted objects. I’ve also used large cardboard boxes in a pinch – except I have to air them out for days or spray the interiors with clear acrylic top coat to make sure there are no loose cardboard fibers that can float around – thus defeating the whole purpose of shielding the drying object.
Adrianacandle,
Part 1 of 3
Here is a classic rocket from the 1960’s I’ve been trying to reconstruct from old photographs and diagrams:
The Starlight
https://www.seateddimevarieties.com/BAR/pics/k32_68.jpg
It’s hard to tell from this image I found, but it really looks cool with the two rings and nose cone painted metallic silver, and the rest of it painted a sapphire blue metal flake or translucent blue.
Yeah, I guess I had to let some of those problems go, but going through the clips again while making the video makes the inconsistencies harder for me to handle. I can tell that all of the decisions were just practical by D&D to make the show more visually “exciting”..character be damned. If you think about it, Arya had become almost unstoppable with her FM superpower. The only thing that almost got her were dead people, but living people didn’t stand much of a chance anymore. So, the logical thing would have been to send Arya on your “lone wolf” mission to take down Cersei. She would have been successful and avoided quite the battle!!
I could hear D&D talking that Arya had her big moment with the NK and that was enough. They wanted a huge battle sequence and they wanted a tragic ending to Dany. It wasn’t quite romeo and juliet, since Jon didn’t kill himself, but he pretty much sucked the life out of himself after he stabbed her….. hence back to season 8 discussions again. Sorry!!! All roads lead to Arya as you say, but all Arya roads seem to lead to problems I’m having with season 8… but I did have some problems way back in season 1 with Syrio not having a real sword! So I had consistency issues throughout the series at different times. If I think of D&D’s motivations, then it all begins to make sense. They had to want to make something visually amazing for TV that had sex, tragedy and drama. Hence they added the Robb/Talisa hot romance. And it was hot! I will give you that! But in the books, it’s all off screen and hardly a romance. They wanted their huge battle sequences in season 8. “The Bells” was an amazing visual accomplishment with recreating kings landing, burning it down, and showing the realism of the horror. They wanted the tragic moment of Jon having to kill the woman he supposedly loves. I never bought the romance, but D&D tried to sell it. They wanted the tragic moment for TV. They wanted a surprise ending to “The Long Night” episode, so just like Arya appeared out of the blue, the idea of Arya taking out the NK was pretty much out of the blue and was more Jon’s story as even Maisie admitted. I think she could have landed the final blow with her Catspaw’s dagger, but Jon needed to team up with her as a pack of wolves would do. Fans probably would have been up in arms even more if D&D didn’t do the amazing battle scenes. If D&D allowed Arya to use her FM powers to just take out Cersei stealth like (as Jaime for example), I think fans would have said “too much Arya”.. And stealth isn’t all that exciting if Cersei is just found dead and that’s it…
Sansa using her Little Finger smarts would plot to get Dany out of the picture for good. In a way, Sansa did do just that didn’t she. She knew that revealing Jon’s secret would be a way to take Dany down, but it took Jon down in the process too. Arya could have discovered Sansa’s betrayal and killed Dany for him so he didn’t have to live with the burden. But only a few of us Arya fans would have probably enjoyed watching that scenario. Most people would probably say that was too much Arya! But I disagree because that’s where her story leaded. It wasn’t an attempt to get Arya more screen time. It was where her journey led to a natural conclusion. It’s not Arya’s fault she became a superhero with FM powers and really had the power to avoid all of the bloodshed of those horrific battles.
Adrianacandle,
Part 2 of 3
One of my favorite places in the world – with lots of fond memories over the years – is The Delano, an Art Deco hotel in Miami Beach.
Though it may not be apparent from this image…
https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/max_1200/d351c769874193.5b9029cc7aba7.jpg
… upon approaching it by car, it looks like the Starlight rocket inverted and planted in the ground. That image appears to be of an old color scheme. The last time I was there the “fins” were painted red, making it look like the Starlight rocket.
Or maybe I just make that visual connection because I like the look of the Starlight and the vibe of The Delano. (BTW, the interior of the hotel is gorgeous, the champagne & crepes bar is wonderful, the secluded canoodling sofas in the lobby are lots of fun, the restaurant is fabulous, and the beachside pool is beautiful. However, it’s been a while since I’ve been there. I have no idea if it is closed, or if it will even survive the Long Night – I mean the Covid sh*tshow. 😕 Needless to say, enlightened people won’t be congregating there for the foreseeable future.
breathe!
on his 2016 campaign or in the first weeks of sitting at the wrong desk, Donald Jabberwock Trump mocked a handicapped reporter. this weekend, a handicapped person mocked back. mile after mile, minute after minute, becoming an Ironman. and we all know that Ironmen simply take what is theirs.
i’m so fucking proud of Chris Nikic (remember correctly?) being the first man with down syndrome to finish an Ironman. i’ve been living together with old ladies with mental handicaps for some years. one of them had T21. at the age of 52 (as i am now, too), she learned reading and writing. not kidding. rural switzerland was not the place known for supporting handicapped persons back then when she could have gone to school.
three or four times a week, she made her way to a teacher who lived two or three farmhouses further, came back with more knowledge, and when it was my 40th birthday she wrote me a birthday card. i’m built pretty close to the water, but few things have ever touched me like this!
take a deep and joyful breath for the Ironman Chris! and take another one for the Ironwoman Hermine! she might be 64 now, although people with T21 seldomly reach such an age. anyway, both of them have risen their midfinger to an environment that either mocked them or simply left them behind. what they can do, anyone can do!
breathe one more time! we’re in the Age of Breath.
millions of people have died at the hands of a disease that takes their breath. millions more might.
half of California can’t breathe because it’s burning. Australian and the Amazon rain forests can’t breathe.
prisoners suffering waterbording can’t breathe. teargassed people can’t breathe. every tweet by the doofus took our collective breath away.
i can’t breathe well wearing a mask. (but fuck, i wear it proud of the fact that i might protect others by doing so. and everyone who cannot take pride in protecting their fellow citicens is an asshole, end of.)
George Floyd could not breathe. he told everyone around in real time…
… don’t hold your breath!
George Floyd’s breath still lives and is active. in the millions standing up against racism much louder than ever before, worldwide. in every discussion, in every slogan we shout we use breath from his lungs. nearly nine minutes of torture ended his biography, his ambitions and his friendships. but they also expanded his lungs all over the world, and they will never go away again.
breathe with your own lungs or with his, just breathe!
at the “March for our Lives”, Parkland survivor Emma Gonzalez entered the stage and immediately did what we all have to do: breathe. nothing else, for six plus minutes, right the time it took one of uncountable lunatics to end uncountable lives.
that was breathing as an act of rebellion against murder and for life. a silent but very alive midfinger to the face of hate.
yes, i had this feeling of being suffocated by thousands of lies from a guy who happens to have nukes. and by other actions he took. and by other actions others douches took. still i kept breathing. because brave people all over the world who had to fight for their breath much harder than me encouraged me to do so, over and over again.
as long as we’re good we’ll breathe. with breath comes voice, and without voice there’s no change for the better.
man, did i just hold a rallye event or wtf?
Adrianacandle,
Part 3 of 3 [Last rocket-related thread derailment.]
Coincidentally, before the weekend I picked up some boxes that I thought were all Amazon deliveries of household products (and yes, more sandpaper that I didn’t really need).
I was surprised and delighted when I opened one of the boxes: Without telling me, my sister had entered and won an eBay auction for a “Limited Edition Collector Series,” original 1965 version of my all-time favorite rocket:
The Mars Snooper.
https://eurospacetechnology.eu/img/p/3/0/9/9/3099-large_default.jpg
https://imagearchive.com/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rocketryforum.com%2Fimages%2Fgalleries%2Fliveries%2Festes-mars%2520snooper%2520k20-facecard%25203.jpg&hash=8d6c7fca5ab7aa783d9f4842a63323bb
I have been trying for ten years to reconstruct this rocket. (Latter versions of this rocket suck. The original manufacturer started substituting plastic parts, and ruined the design by eliminating the balsa fin pods to skimp on costs. Then other companies started selling generic clones.)
My sister found for me the equivalent of the Holy Grail. (Not merely a grail-shaped beacon.*) I’m hesitant to ask how much she spent to outbid everyone on eBay.
* Gratuitous Monty Python reference.
Now I want to reciprocate by gifting to her a Hermès bag, a Bulgari watch, Prada slippers… or Arya’s S7e4 boots if I can find them.
– End Off-Off-Topic 🚀 Subthread –
death by chickenfire,
Amen!
death by chickenfire,
You’ve tempted me to select some Pink Floyd for a Musical Interlude:
🎶Breathe, breathe in the air
Don’t be afraid to care🎶
Ten Bears,
Oh, thank-you for these links!! (And yes, that image file name is of the rocket I’m working on — which also now has red fins!) That’s a beautiful art deco hotel! Art deco is probably one of my favourite art moments — I had designed and cut a dice tower last year and art deco was the inspiration I used (especially since art deco and Tolkien-esque elven design had so much in common). The flow, the linework, the shape of art deco design — something about it feels so organic but new if that makes sense 🙂
That’s an amazing sister! Has this helped your ten year mission to recreate the “Limited Edition Collector Series,” original 1965 version of the Mars Snooper?
Tron79,
Without trying to get into too much detail with another season 8 discussion, I don’t think these aspects (sex, tragedy, and drama) were D&D specific. I’d say these aspects certainly exist in the books too, especially tragedy and drama (and irony and inner struggle and “human heart in conflict with itself” and all that!) — but I think in more multi-faceted ways and as a result of running themes.
Take Robb and Jeyne in the books — I think that was very tragic but in a different way than the spunky talking-back modern-edge nurse Talisa who Robb marries because he must follow his heart, despite Catelyn spelling out to him what will happen with the Freys before he does it. And then the Freys pretty much do what Catelyn warned Robb about, turn against them, and slaughter Robb, Talisa, Catelyn, and the Stark guard at the Red Wedding.
In the books, a 15-year old Robb was compelled to marry Jeyne out of a sense of honor after he took her virginity when he has grief sex with her after learning Bran and Rickon were reportedly killed by Theon (Robb’s former best friend who betrayed him in seeking approval from his father). Robb was trying to do right by Jeyne, do what he thought was honorable, they actually do end up falling in love, and… it dooms an entire country. Robb trying to be honorable and do right by Jeyne compromises his honor in another way: he breaks his vow to the Freys…. resulting in the Red Wedding.
The concepts behind quite a few plots in the final seasons, some of which you cite, I can see GRRM doing… but I imagine it will happen in different ways (sort of like the Robb/Jeyne vs Robb/Talisa example above — bare bones are the same but the details and reasons are different). Well, perhaps not with the Night King because there is no Night King in the books. Personally, I think the resolution to the Long Night (if there is a resolution) will be quite different. Already, I think the Others themselves are quite different from the more corporeal White Walkers/Night King, which gave that storyline a far more action-based angle than the mysterious/elusive/almost psychological angle it has in the books (the Others come at night and silently take people, they aren’t seen, they aren’t known, it’s an elusive enemy).
But that’s getting into book speculation and Long Night tinfoil theories 😉 I have a few ideas over how it might go down!
However, we don’t really know what D&D were working with, what GRRM’s exact plans are, how things will go in future books and how plots will differ. I think the bare bones are the same but I think things will probably manifest differently — sort of like how the assassination of LC Jon comes about in book 5 vs how it does in the show. The wildlings are certainly a factor in both cases but the story is far more complex in the book where it is (understandably) streamlined and reduced in the show.
Give into temptation. Do it. Do it. Do it.
(Also! I wanted to say — even when I don’t comment on musical interludes, Ten Bears, I always click the links! I’m a fan!)
Tron79,
Why wasn’t Syrio carrying a regular sword or at least a dagger? Kings Landing is a dangerous place.
He was a mercenary, tutoring Ned’s daughter. Ned was Hand of the King, so it would seem safe for Syrio to be in the Red Keep without a sidearm. (Lack of a metal blade also kept Arya from demanding to use one, in case she got headstrong and Ned was not there.) No one foresaw that Ned’s blundering refusal to execute the dying wishes of his friend and liege, King Robert, would swiftly lead to a palace coup. (Ned’s execution was one of the only times in the story when stupid, dishonorable, and stupidly dishonorable conduct was promptly punished.)
Does it bug you that Arya decided to leave everything and never return after Jon’s reveal? (in last of the Starks). It was like that was the last straw for her and she gave up on her family and everything and decided just to go for revenge.
Arya knows Westeros well enough to understand Jon’s revealed status as Targ’ heir was going to cause big trouble, and so she departed to avenge her father’s death before leaving Westeros for good. Again, she could not predict just how big that trouble would become, or that it would threaten her life; luckily, Sandor was there to intervene.
As far as Ned’s admonition about the wolf pack staying together, well, they had. Everything the Starks hold dear — The Wall, Winterfell, even The North itself — all existed primarily to contain the White Walker threat, which Arya had eliminated by teaming up with the other Starks. She never got along with Sansa, who now ruled Winterfell (and then all of The North), and Jon had to go into exile, so why would Arya stay?
Offering this as a light-hearted contrast to your amazing sister:
On the aforementioned anti-carrot short film I made — that I slaved over, that I put my everything into, that I rented 100lb lighting equipment for (and couldn’t figure out how to use effectively), that inspired Tron to reject carrots (thank-you, Tron!) — there is only one comment…
…From my sister:
“You have one subscriber.”
Adrianacandle,
Thanks for the comments. You are right that sex, drama and tragedy are in the books too. I guess I was trying to say that D&D were making choices that they thought worked best on the screen as opposed to in print. This is the “different mediums” discussion I’ve read before. I think D&D was going for more of a visual spectacle instead of doing things off screen in print like what happened with Robb and Jeyne.
(I think most things that happened offscreen on TV were for budgetary or time reasons, because they did do several things offscreen that irritated me)
With Arya, she could have very stealthily handled all of the problems almost off screen with her FM abilities. And there would be little doubt she would succeed. Also, using FM abilities comes at a price. Maisie can’t be on screen the whole time!! The character has to be someone else, since it’s a different face. That causes its own issues for TV. You have to pay another actor or actress to play Maisie’s role when she has on another face, and Maisie’s face is one of her best attributes for acting (she’s so expressive)
I can see your points that many of the main plot points could very well be the same.
I think I’m trying to say that some character consistency was sacrificed for what D&D thought the audience would enjoy seeing on the screen.
Your example of the Others is a great one and makes my “different mediums” point very well. It’s scary to think of some unknown “others” lurking in the night when you are reading. You don’t need to see them..Images appear in your imagination. That’s actually the point of being scared by something you can’t see. But once you see them on screen, they needed to become more of a physical villain like the NK.
You also have onscreen chemistry, which sometimes will influence the writers’ decisions on where to take the story. If the audience likes the pairing, they often find a way to keep them together a little longer! Hence the term plot armor arose to avoid losing fan favorites.
Tron79,
I’d agree with that! And books and television are essentially different mediums which have different strengths and different weaknesses. For example, in the books, you can get into characters’ heads, read their thoughts. On the show, that’s a more difficult feat. However, with visual media, you can see (and hear!!) a world come to life rather than imagine it, you can see the characters living and breathing and that can pretty astonishing, like it was on Game of Thrones (eg, the beautiful sept explosion sequence complete with that incredible soundtrack).
Hm, this is a point I had never considered before. Yes, they would have to hire another actress — but still have that actress some how convey the essence of Arya in the way MW does to make that connection. And yes, that would be a challenge!
You’re also right that Arya could have easily become a juggernaut.
I’d certainly agree there were consistency issues (that I’ve admittedly harped on over and over again). I think there were some contrived choices to speed along the plot in a limited time constraint, and I think a lot of this was due to a compressed timeline and working with whatever GRRM gave them in which they had to wrap up so much so quickly.
But I don’t know that D&D made choices for popularity’s sake. And if they have, we don’t really know exactly where this occurs… yet (if ever). I think D&D made some choices they knew (and have said) would be unpopular (and did prompt backlash), especially in the final season and final episodes.
Although, I do think Arya killing the Night King is a D&D thing. However, if I’m wrong and Arya is the one to end the Long Night in the books, I’ll gladly say I’m wrong 🙂
Definitely!
I know the road trip adventures of Arya and Sandor were expanded from the books, as well as the glorious show-only Tywin and Arya interactions too! 🙂
Oh, there’s definitely been plot armor, no argument from me there! But I don’t think this is so much to avoid losing fan favourites (well, as far as the mains are concerned) but to perhaps bring the mains to the same places GRRM plans to end his characters in. But the journey will likely have differences, I think.
Tron79,
Thank you. That’s pretty much how I saw the end to Arya’s story. A few comments and questions though…
”I did have some problems way back in season 1 with Syrio not having a real sword!”
Q: But didn’t MFT interrupt a practice session with wooden sparring swords?
Besides, didn’t Sandor (on the only occasion he ever giggled as far as I can recall) comment on this? ”The greatest swordsman who ever lived didn’t have a sword?”
”They wanted a surprise ending to “The Long Night” episode, so just like Arya appeared out of the blue, the idea of Arya taking out the NK was pretty much out of the blue and was more Jon’s story as even Maisie admitted. I think she could have landed the final blow with her Catspaw’s dagger, but Jon needed to team up with her as a pack of wolves would do.”
Right. I’ve whinged about this Arya ex machina (many times) before. As much as I love almost everything about Arya and Maisie Williams, Arya materializing out of thin air as if beamed down from the Enterprise’s transporter room to the Godswood’s coordinates was unfulfilling for me. It made for a rah rah moment for many TV viewers. Not for me.
I cannot say I was thrilled with the showrunners’ explanation for selecting Arya instead of Jon (it was “unexpected”), and for eliminating scripted scenes of Arya making her way to the Godswood.
Plus, Jon and Arya converging on the Godswood at or before the climactic moment set up organically a sequence in which (as you observed) even if Arya landed the final blow with her VS dagger, Jon “needed to team up with her as a pack of wolves would.”
As it was, I perceived Jon to be neutered: relegated to ducking out from behind a rock to yell at an undead dragon in frustration before ducking behind the rock again. He could have fended off wights and WWs to clear a path for Arya. Something – anything to show a coordinated team effort by the White Wolf and the Wolf Girl. Nope.
(Many wishful thinking fans tried to argue that Jon was distracting undead Viserion to give Arya a straight shot at NK, or that Jon was shouting “Go!” to Arya. These fan theories were debunked by the actors themselves.
Jon’s prior interactions with NK, eg the staredown on the Hardhome dock at the end of S5e8, went nowhere. Why “hang” that gun to begin with? (Oh, and I’m sorry, knocking NK off his mount in a midair dragon collision doesn’t count.)
I’ll whinge again: After getting super-psyched by the pre-S8 WF Crypts teaser showing Jon and Arya drawing their swords to face an unseen enemy side by side, I was disappointed we didn’t get any scenes of Arya & Jon fighting together during S8e3. Or even a brief glimpse of Jon watching Arya in action.
Why they had Davos witness Arya’s slice-and-dice of wights sequence left me scratching my head. It would have been narratively appropriate – and not fan service – to bookend the S1e2 scene of Jon Snow and Arya “I can be quick” Stark with a scene of Arya demonstrating her martial skills as Jon watched. (How did Davos fit into that role? He did not know Arya beforehand, and said nothing later about the skills of the little warrior princess he’d witnessed firsthand.)
No Arya & Jon = A glaring, missed opportunity and unfired “hung gun” in my view.
”Fans probably would have been up in arms even more if D&D didn’t do the amazing battle scenes. If D&D allowed Arya to use her FM powers to just take out Cersei stealth like (as Jaime for example), I think fans would have said “too much Arya”..
Yeah, once Arya single-handedly pulverized Big Bad #1 in single combat, that effectively eliminated her as the assassin who’d take out Big Bad #2, lest the audience groan (even more) that “D&D” had turned Arya into Batman.
Having said that, I was never on board with the popular fan theory that Arya would kill Cersei wearing Jamie’s face. That would have been a “cheat” of the Valonqar prophecy (as Arya would still be Arya, and not a male “little brother” who’d choke out Cersei with “his hands” around Cersei’s throat).
Further, having used the face-peeling trick three times already (to kill MFT in S5e10; Walder Frey in S6e10; and the rest of the Frey RW perpetrators in S7e1), any shock value had already been exhausted. Resorting to it a fourth time in S8 would have been [excuse the pun] overkill.
However, I would be remiss if I didn’t suggest that expending precious screen time to the culmination of the story of Arya & Sandor in S8 may have made it difficult to devote enough screen time to flesh out the Arya & Jon story.
After all, not everyone thinks like I do, that GoT should have been All Arya All the Time. 😁
Adrianacandle,
”That’s an amazing sister! Has this helped your ten year mission to recreate the “Limited Edition Collector Series,” original 1965 version of the Mars Snooper?”
Absolutely. I can use the original balsa parts and fin patterns as templates to recreate all the parts myself. I have all the balsa sheets, balsa blocks and card stock I’d need.
However, I am reluctant to build out the contents of the box: They’re 55 years old and in pristine condition! I may seal up the box in an acid-free plastic bag to join my GoT memorabilia and EW magazines to preserve for posterity.
Tron79,
”Your example of the Others is a great one and makes my “different mediums” point very well. It’s scary to think of some unknown “others” lurking in the night when you are reading…”
Oh good! A segue for a Musical Interlude. 🧟♂️ Lemme go find the song and lyrics…
Tron79,
Musical Interlude
Dedicated to the Others/White Walkers
and the Night King
🎶Everybody got problems, buddy
I got mine
When midnight comes around,
I start to lose my mind
When the sun puts out the light
I join the creatures of the night 🧟♂️
Oh yeah
I’m a sleepwalker
I’m a night stalker
I’m a street walker
I’m a night hawker
Everybody got secrets that they want to hide
When midnight comes along,
I take a look inside
Don’t go talking in your sleep:
I might come in for a peep
Oh yeah.
I’m a sleepwalker
I’m a night stalker
When everybody’s fast asleep,
I start to creep
Through the shadows of the moonlight,
I walk my beat
Better close your window tight
I might come in for a bite
Oh yeah
When the night time comes,
I start to creep
I prowl around
when you’re fast asleep…🎶
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHTPz1vtwBo
“Sleepwalker” (1977)
The Kinks
Are they all flat pieces?
Because, you know, if they are… this might be a crazy idea but if you’re willing, perhaps you can take out each piece before sealing the box for good, trace the outline onto some paper, scan/photograph each shape, send the files to me, I can trace the design in Illustrator and make a laser-cutting pattern out of it…? I can even cut it for you out of 2020-21 balsa wood (or any kind of wood you want!) and mail it to you flat-packed and unassembled!
Or, if you prefer, you can send it to a local laser cutting company to cut it for you!
Then you can keep the original 55-year old pieces in pristine condition and still build the rocket!
Either way, my offer is always on the table! 😀
Perfect! XD
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”No one foresaw that Ned’s blundering refusal to execute the dying wishes of his friend and liege, King Robert, would swiftly lead to a palace coup. (Ned’s execution was one of the only times in the story when stupid, dishonorable, and stupidly dishonorable conduct was promptly punished.)”
Thank you for mentioning this. As a show-only fan*, as soon as I saw Ned forge Robert’s will (changing the wording that Robert was dictating to him), I said to myself “Bad move!”
I thought that Ned, as Robert’s supposedly trusted friend, owed it to Robert to reveal the harsh truth that his kids were all incest bastards.
Alternatively, if Ned wanted to spare the feelings of his dying friend, he should have just accepted that Joffrey would be forever considered a Baratheon and therefore the rightful heir.
I don’t see how Ned thought he had a third option. (I won’t even get into Ned’s indefensible decision to give Cersei a head’s up to protect her kids before Ned had gotten his own daughters out of the zone of danger and safely back in WF. Hadn’t Ned previously told Arya “We’ve come to a dangerous place”?)
Hypothetical questions I’ve asked myself:
1. If I were on my deathbed, would I want my brother or best friend to reveal to me that my wife had been unfaithful throughout my marriage, and all of “my” children had been fathered by her lover?
2. Same as #1, but if I had been a manwhore throughout my marriage and fathered a gaggle of bastards with a whole bunch of different mistresses, would I still expect my best friend or brother to rat out my wife for her infidelities?
Since I have never been in these situations, I can’t answer how I’d feel.
It just seemed to me Ned had a binary choice: Tell Robert everything; or say nothing and take the secret to my grave.
* Did book! Ned have some legitimate justification for countermanding the last wishes of his dying friend?
While I’m going to avoid getting into this debate for now, here’s a portion of the book passage of this scene for your (and anyone else’s) perusal 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Thanks for the kind offer! I may take you up on it.
When I put on latex gloves later to inspect the parts, I’ll have to check to see if the fins are die – cut into the balsa sheets, or if there are (paper or cardstock) fin patterns to cut out and then use to trace shapes on the balsa sheet.
Also, they are not all “flat pieces.” And that is probably why the manufacturer started skimping on balsa parts or replacing them with plastic: The original design has 7 different balsa nose cones in 3 separate sizes. (A small base nose cone and longer top nose cone for each of the three fin pods + a large main nose cone.)
The tricky part is making two conical shrouds out of cardstock. It will be especially helpful that the original parts have the two shrouds preprinted to cut out, with markings for 12 separate small “vanes” made out of thin balsa.
It’s kind of a challenging construction, and if any of the fin or shroud shapes are even slightly off, the whole thing will get skewed and out of whack.
And the rocket will look like crap, and might spin out of control when it flies.
The upside is that if built patiently and painted properly the Mars Snooper looks amazing, i.e., a “Shelf Queen.” (A rocket to display rather than risk losing or dirtying by launching it.)
Adrianacandle,
Book! excerpt:
” So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said “my son Joffrey,” he scrawled “my heir” instead. The deceit made him feel soiled.”
Well, there it is. Just like on the show. Bad Ned!
Oh yeah, I see where the problem would be 🙁 And yeah, tracing would be pretty imprecise and may throw the whole thing off. Still, if there’s any way I can help or there’s an alternative you can think of that I can assist with, my offer is always available!
And not just bad, soiled! (Somehow, that word ‘soiled’ feels… so… grimy…)
Those Cyndi Lauper songs were so beautiful – and appropriate. I’d never heard most of them. Until recently I was not aware she had such an extensive catalog of music.
You noted: ”There really is a Cyndi Lauper song for everything!!!”.
and
”It took me time to figure out which of Cyndi’s songs fit the themes, and luckily she had a ton of songs!!”
I think you mentioned you have a background in music, compose music, or teach music? I’m curious if you watched the two videos of her TV appearances on Johnny Carson in 1984. I may have previously posted the links; I’ll do so in a few minutes.
I was enthralled by her gift for comedy in her interviews by Johnny Carson, and her live performances of two of her “bouncy” songs sounded really good, even though the videos of the Tonight Show were recordings from TV.
I’ve got to say, to my untrained ears, her renditions of two ballads (“Time After Time” and “All Through the Night”) sounded amazing – especially coming after her quirky storytelling.
What are or were your assessments.
I am too. It’s also kind of amazing that her “inventory” includes so many songs that are apt for Tron79’s GoT videos.
Anyway, if you haven’t watched those two TV appearances, I recommend taking a look.
P.S. In her chats with Johnny Carson, she mentions her “advisor,” professional wrestler Captain Lou Albano. He plays her father in the music video for “Girls Just Want to Have Fun” (at 0:53 – 1:07).
“Girls Just Want to Have Fin”
Music Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A
…. to be continued ….
Adrianacandle,
Part 2 of 2 *
* Part 1 of this Comment, a combined Reply to Adrianacandle and Tron79 that I attempted to post at 5:42 pm, is “awaiting moderation.” ⌛️
I was curious if you had watched these interviews and live performances on TV in 1984…
• Cyndi Lauper’s debut appearance
(March 1, 1984) on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson (16:45 total length)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-yis9av6xc
– “Girls Just Want to Have Fun” 0:00 – 4:40
– Interview 4:55 – 10:31
– “Time After Time” 10:35 – 14:56
———
• Cyndi Lauper’s second appearance on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson, Sept. 21, 1984 (19:17 total length )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPfu9V_VS-A
– “She Bop” (at 0:05 – 4:49)
– Interview 4:56 – 12:15
– “All Though the Night” 12:23 – 17:51
At 16:20 – 17:04: I thought that was a musical instrument making those high notes. It was her. Singing.
Ten Bears,
Those performances are so much fun to watch! I’m always amazed by live performance, especially when it’s done well — it’s almost like magic. I can’t imagine trying to do that with my voice and sounding good but skill like that — it’s just magic, I swear 🙂
(Also, loved the inclusion of the recorder and the switch between playing the recorder and dancing XD)
Ten Bears,
I really do have to wonder if we watched the same show.
After getting super-psyched by the pre-S8 WF Crypts teaser showing Jon and Arya drawing their swords to face an unseen enemy side by side, I was disappointed we didn’t get any scenes of Arya & Jon fighting together during S8e3.
So, in the final season, you were surprised to find they’d set up (or hinted at a set up) for a trope — only to subvert it?
Arya materializing out of thin air as if beamed down from the Enterprise’s transporter room to the Godswood’s coordinates was unfulfilling for me. […] eliminating scripted scenes of Arya making her way to the Godswood.
She’s a highly trained stealth assassin who spent her entire childhood sneaking around in Winterfell. To paraphrase Ser Davos, if someone did see her coming, she was doing it wrong. 🙂
He could have fended off wights and WWs to clear a path for Arya. Something – anything to show a coordinated team effort by the White Wolf and the Wolf Girl.
They did actually show us this, but not in the way you described. The NK controlled Wight Viserion. Jon thus occupied the NK, via proxy, at a critical moment so Arya could slip into the Godswood unnoticed.
Jon’s prior interactions with NK, eg the staredown on the Hardhome dock at the end of S5e8, went nowhere.
Actually, it set up the moment of Jon distracting the NK via Wight Viserion. At Hardhome, the NK learned to keep Jon away at all costs. Therefore, he directed his most powerful weapon, Wight Viserion, to do just that.
…knocking NK off his mount in a midair dragon collision doesn’t count.
Tough crowd! 😉 Your standards for in-person heroism far surpass mine, sir!
Seriously, that was the very first moment Team Breathing had ever caught a break. From the Fist of the First Men, through Hardhome, to the Frozen Lake, and Eastwatch(-No Longer-Quite)-by-the-Sea, the NK had one shut-out victory after another. He was gunning for Bran when Jon dismounted him. That left Bran as bait and the NK having to make his way on foot, where he could be jumped by a highly-trained assassin with a VS blade.
As I’ve previously written, my disappointment was in killing the NK at all. I thought they would stun him into submission so Sam could remove the shard of obsidian from the NK’s chest, un-making him back into a First Man (and possibly one with the surname Stark). That would “deactivate the mothership” and end the battle. Whilst Sam struggled with this surgery (surgery for which his cure of Jorah was thus a foreshadowing), Arya would defeat a swarm of WW’s as they tried to rescue their boss.
So, when Jon dismounted the NK, I thought my scenario was starting. Sadly, No! Well, it was a story from GRRM, via D&D. If I don’t like it, then I can just go bloody well write my own. (Perhaps I’ll get back to that little project now…)
Ten Bears,
“Did book! Ned have some legitimate justification for countermanding the last wishes of his dying friend?”
That is not what condemned Ned. By changing Joffrey’s name with a succinct expression he simply proceeded to a stricter application of Robert’s words. If you want it’s semantics rather than anything else, one which would allow him perhaps to claim that “since the king ordered that his legitimate heir take the throne, and Joffrey is not legitimate, Stannis is that heir”. Pure sophistry.
What condemned Ned was the letter to Stannis they found on the captain of his guard. Ned only wrote it after Robert had died. This message was about to be delivered with the ship that would carry Sansa and Arya to WF, by making port at Dragonstone. It invited Stannis to take the throne, and it was treason to the throne and the heir apparent Joffrey Baratheon.
Ned himself after visiting Robert on his death bed called for the small council to convene, where he disclosed the truth. From that point onwards it depended on the members of the council to back him up or not. Ned couldn’t have known at that time that LF had already decided to betray him.
The council was interrupted by the call to appear in the throne room. Cersei gave Ned a chance by asking him to bend the knee. Ned declared that Joffrey had no claim to the throne. That was it; he was arrested for denying fealty to Joffrey while at the same time the palace guard was attacking the Hand’s Tower -Tom was killed, the letter found on him.
Ned’s motivation for saving Cersei and her children was the treatment of children by Robert. The king seemed to have no remorse about the killing of Rhaegar’s children; it was convenient for him that Tywin had had them killed. Ned remembered that Tywin had had the children’s bodies wrapped in lannister red cloaks, so that the blood didn’t show; he was obviously shocked to have witnessed that scene after he reached KL. Also Ned is haunted by Lyanna’s “promise me” (to save her own boy) and even quit because of Robert’s insistence to have Daenerys and her unborn child murdered.
Once they talked about it and while Ned was of the opinion “isn’t that why we fought, for the children?” Robert was like “what you’re talking about, ol’mate? We fought to take out the Targs”. [which I suppose translates in Ned’s mind into “phew! at least I saved Jon!”]
Robert failed Ned many times; he ordered Sansa’s wolf Lady to be killed while he didn’t mind Mycah’s death either (no protection of the innocent–not that Ned himself dwells on Mycah’s death at all); had little care about state affairs; all he seriously bothered with was having Daenerys killed; and when the going got tough, Robert went hunting.
Ned planned to tell Robert the truth, but since he had confronted Cersei, she acted first. As she admits later, all she had to do was provide Robert with good strong wine, and Robert himself did the rest.
As for the reasons why Ned was betrayed, it was his own refusal to seize power. Renly and LF basically asked him the same thing, to remove Cersei and take hold of Joffrey, to become his regent and tutor until he came of age, and secure his family’s position with a set of weddings (Tommen-Arya, Myrcella-Robb). Ned wouldn’t have that; he insisted on Stannis having the better claim, but everybody hated Stannis including his brother Renly. In addition, these people’s position under a Stannis regime would be precarious at least (LF would be ousted from the palace anyway).
Cersei told Ned the same thing, only she included herself in the plan. She also told him that he should have taken the throne himself when he could. This is a theme that comes up a lot in the first book. Why on earth didn’t Ned take the throne for himself then? I don’t think that there’s a real explanation there (or that the reader is left to decide that for himself), other than Ned’s character; a younger son (much like Bran) Ned hadn’t prepared for ruling, unlike his elder brother Brandon. He was also highly conservative and honorable, did not like courtly plots and machinations and had no idea of conspiracies and how power balance worked or what would be “the smart thing” to do in tricky situations. [Although Ned would have realized too that it would be difficult to claim the throne when the Lannisters first had taken the city].
So Jamie, a “place holder” for the throne, yielded it to Ned, but Ned gave it to Robert, and he proved a bad king.
I don’t really have much to add to this discussion but I believe Ned refused to take the throne simply because he was going by lawful succession — which is why he felt compelled to fudge the wording on Robert’s will as he knew Joffrey wasn’t Robert’s son and as a result, wasn’t Robert’s heir. With Robert having no trueborn children, that made Stannis Robert’s heir — which is why Ned was intent on Stannis inheriting the throne:
When Ned spoke to Renly and Renly urged Ned to seize power, Robert was not yet dead. Ned still had hope Robert would pull through:
___
Crap, I’m probably blanking 🙁 Can you show me the passage where Ned said this? 🙂 I know Robert’s approval over the brutal killings of Rhaegar’s kids with Elia caused a rift in Ned’s relationship with Robert, yes, and it only came together again due to their shared grief over Lyanna. But I don’t recall Ned taking part in Robert’s Rebellion for the children…?
But I could be totally forgetting a passage!! Which I’ve done!
In the context you speak of a little project, I’ve intrigued… 🙂
However, I don’t think the show’s resolution to the Long Night will be quite the resolution to the Long Night in the books. For one, there isn’t a Night King in the books as this kind of physical, action-oriented avatar like the undead are moreso in the show. Tron and I had discussed some of the differences between these otherworldly beings (in the show, Night King/White Walkers/wights; in the books, the Others/wights) so I’ll quote some pieces from those comments instead of making you scroll up to read (if you haven’t read them and if you’re interested!)
It’s always been part of my personal pet theory that the motivation for the Others wanting to wipe out humanity might be because they view humanity as the threat and destructive impact on the world and may have compelling reason to want to get rid of us like we’re a kind of plague. And perhaps negotiation and compromise (maybe after a battle?) between these two warring groups might be involved in a resolution.
That’s just speculation though 🙂
Hummm… I think you could be right. I see the “others” as more of a metaphor. To wage war, usually it requires dehumanizing the other side. It’s one thing if people are fighting for resources to survive. Often I believe you have to condition people to see the “others” as the enemy to be able to pull the trigger. Thinking of religion, the texts talk about two brothers who are enemies until the one sees the face of G-d in the other. That too is a metaphor that once you see them up close and really see them as human beings, it’s alot harder to pull that trigger….Anyway, gotta go to a meeting for now….
Adrianacandle,
It’s in Eddard VIII:
‘”Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl.” Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. “Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?”
“To put an end to Targaryens!” the king growled.’
And there’s this gem which establishes Ned’s sensitivities (in Eddard II):
“Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.”
I did not mean that Renly pushed for establishing Ned on the throne. I meant that Ned was seen -as I believe, only in retrospect and only since Robert’s rule proved to be such a disaster- as he who should have taken the throne after the Targaryens were dethroned. This is a subject that comes up three or four times in the first book.
But you’re right in that legitimacy had a role in Robert’s election anyway, because he was chosen as one with Targaryen blood, as it often happened in the middle ages. Thus a new king was connected with the previous dynasty.
Perhaps Ned had that in mind too, apart from the lack of ambition that characterized him; the Starks didn’t have a single drop of Targaryen blood. Anyway, Ned does not dwell on such things and what he believes is very difficult to figure out; only when he whinges to Catelyn about becoming lord it shows that he didn’t want any of this in the first place –how could someone who does not even like becoming a lord (for whatever reasons), become a king instead?
Renly urged Ned to take power as Hand of the King and regent; he’d oust the Lannisters, hold the king and wield all the power at least until Joffrey came of age.
Efi,
Thanks for that passage!
With Renly in that passage, it seems he is pushing Ned to seize control of the throne but Robert is still alive.
But yes, Robert laments that it should have been Ned or Jon Arryn who took the throne. However, Ned replies Robert had the better claim.
Oh! I didn’t mean to say anything about why Robert became king. Sorry for my lack of clarity! I’m super tired right now XD
I think Robert winning the throne was both as the result of right-of-conquest (where blood doesn’t really matter) and blood. However, because there were three leaders in that rebellion, it came down to who had the better claim (per Ned).
According to Renly, Robert won the throne was his warhammer:
And Ned says, out of the three of them, Robert had the better claim:
___
While Ned undoubtedly would not relish life in King’s Landing or as king of the 7K, I think it’s more of a legality issue for Ned — Robert had the better “claim” with a Targaryen grandparent, much like how Ned believes Stannis should take the throne after Robert since Stannis was next in line.
Right, and Ned was against this as Robert was not dead and believed Stannis to be the true heir.
I think you’re right about wars between humans, yeah.
But with the Others, since they aren’t human and they are looking to wipe out all of humanity, I don’t know if there’s the same kind of dehumanization necessarily going on in order to give us humans a desire to defeat them since they’re hunting us and wanting to exterminate us, using our own dead to help out with that.
However, I think I see your point if you mean that this doesn’t mean the Others aren’t thinking, feeling, intelligent creatures with their own motives, reasons, and emotions rather than a straight up enemy who doesn’t think or feel and only wants to kill. Yes, the Others are seen as evil and not much else. They are literally… the other. Good point about that!
While how to kill them is studied, how to understand them and what they want… is not. But I’m hoping the story maybe explores that a bit, especially with how much Jon’s arc is about learning negotiation and compromise. As of now, to humanity, they’re mythical, mysterious, elusive monsters who hunt us and raise our dead to attack us. Tormund is forced to kill the reanimated corpse of one of his sons. But there might be more to them and why they’re attacking us… For all we know, we’re the ultimate enemy to the Others and maybe — as aliens to whatever species they are — we’re known as the Others in their parts of the world? 🙂
The last part of your post is really interesting to me and I agree, especially if the Others are more than just these nightmares come to life.
I have been really into watching Ancient Aliens…. “Ancient Alien Theorists suggest…” is a very common line in that series! I’m fascinated by ancient architects. I’ve watched a bunch about Puma Punku in particular!
I think you already saw some of what I’m saying about “the other” in the treatment of the Wildlings. As you said with Jon’s journey, it could be a natural next step to find out more about the Others. He’s already learned to negotiate (and love) his wildling neighbors. It wasn’t their fault that they were on the other side of the wall (as someone said). I’m getting confused on which “great war” I’m talking about, since I am just about done with my re-watch of season 1 of HDM… There’s alot of great wars out there! For the show, it’s interesting that TAOTD was really created as a weapon of mass destruction by the Children to protect the environment from the Humans. It’s possible GRRM will have similar climate change messages in the books as the ultimate motivation of the Others. Perhaps a negotiation can be made to promise to replant the weirwood forest. Wasn’t cutting down the weirwoods the biggest sin for the Game of Thrones universe? What other climate change things do you think they did?
Tron79,
And Adriana
In my last re-read, which, alas, is going veeeery slowly, I think I saw sth that alludes to the dragonglass in the heart of a human, done by CotF in the context of their war. I don’t remember where it is (but without doubt it’s in Bran or maybe Jon). I’ll search for it and I’ll get back to you in the next days.
But:
I distinctly remember I was impressed because it reminded me of the show. I also had this depressed feeling “poor guy/people, used as a tool against X enemy, being deprived even of peace after death”.
What if it’s not what we think at all? What if it’s set in the context of the powerless being caught in the middle of the wars of the mighty/greedy/ambitious, no matter if it’s gods/people/witches/warlocks or whatever as a part of a wider, more encompassing metaphore? Martin already loves this theme, the powerless are all over in all contexts anyway, whether it’s children, young maids, smallfolk, women etc., and almost all the protagonists of the story have at least at some point been abused and victimised one way or the other.
The Others might be attacking the living not because there’s some purpose, but perhaps because they’re bound to this magic that resurrected them exactly for this, to be a tool against the living.
I’m thinking that perhaps the answer is not in a negotiation between the living and the Others, neither in pushing them behind the Wall, but in 1) the extinction of all magic from Westeros and 2) the establishment of good kings and queens, who care about the people not being victimized.
Bran himself shall come to witness in Hodor how it is to victimize the powerless. This whole episode with Hodor should have a narrative payoff. Perhaps then the solution is not in Bran embracing all that power (to transcend time and space and occupy others despite their own free will) but in, ultimately, rejecting it, and making sure that there are no more vengeful gods and witches and no magic for using the people like that, turning them into wights, or resurrecting them, or hatching dragons from stone, or turning them into three-eyed ravens.
That’s just a thought; what I saw -by chance- made me wonder and contemplate somewhat on the issue although it’s not what I am interested in.
At the same time, my appreciation for D&D increased because they truly seem to have picked up such details.
Efi,
Thanks for your thoughts on this, Efi! 🙂
Yes, if you find the passage, please post it 🙂 I had remembered they used this in the show to create the Night King.
I think my issue with this is that Bran, himself, is magical — even if he rejects his own power. Magic doesn’t really exist in this world as a tool but more like a force of nature and in the very fabric of their world. I don’t really think that can’t really be eliminated. It’s in Winterfell, Valyria, the very blood of people from certain houses, we have people who are born greenseers, wargs, people who have some kind of site, who are able to channel the gods, etc.
Martin speaks on magic here:
___
Rather than showing Bran why he must eliminate all magic, which I’m not sure he can (plus, some people are just born with it and would he eliminate or put strict controls on these people if found?), I think that demonstrated in the show how entering into the past and warging into a person can be disastrous.
In the books, there’s an emphasis on how warging into another person is wrong. Not just wrong — it’s a taboo and we see Hodor suffer for it.
Yet just like how magical isn’t inherently evil (it just is), being a warg isn’t, in itself, inherently evil. It’s how that ability is used. And sometimes, that ability is unconscious, entirely natural, a part of them. But it’s also something (as we learn with Rickon and Shaggy) in which control needs to be learned, lest the warg and wargee meld too much into the other and really, become one without any kind of control or awareness.
Likewise, I don’t think this is something Bran can control. He can’t really control the gods, the actions of the gods, get rid of the vengeful ones. I doubt he can prevent or eliminate the existence of red witches, how they use that power, and what gods they choose to worship. I don’t think he can tell people not to become faceless men.
Bran can try to set a law like “the practice of magic will be persecuted” but that’s also leading down a bit of its dark path… (kind of like in the 2008 series ‘Merlin’!) especially when people in this world are born magic and it can be so much a part of htem.
It’s an interesting concept! But I think the concept of magic and how it’s used is a very complex and multi-faceted story element in ASOIAF.
Also, I think it should be noted what GRRM has said about the others: “The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”
So in this way, I don’t think the Others are acting as the thralls of another force. Personally, if they were, if they were just being used as a tool, I’d find that a bit disappointing… particularly considering how GRRM has said this:
Which is why I like the idea of the Others having their own compelling motivations and to them, we’re the enemy if that makes sense 🙂
It’s true that there are powerless peoples in many of ASOIAF’s stories. Yet, I don’t think the story with the Others is so much another exploration of the innocent being caught between wars for power because somebody else is using them as a tool for their will. (Though innocent and powerless will undoubtedly die in that war for dominance and defeat of the Others to ensure the survival of the living).
More, with wars, I think Martin is exploring why people seek power or victory, how people seek power or victory, what they intend to do with what power they end up with, and the very real benefits/consequences to this. Sometimes, having a certain amount of power is necessary for whatever a character feels is the right thing to do or to achieve what they feel is a necessity somehow (Robb is being named king because they didn’t like the options of Joffrey, Stannis, or Renly as they decide to war against the throne to avenge Ned).
It’s don’t think it’s like a matter of people only seek power because they’re power hungry. Some people seek power because they feel the world needs changing in some way and one needs power to do that, they are gain it as a means for safety and security, they feel seizing power is their duty to protect the realm, etc.
However, in the wars for some kind of power (whether it’s trying to retake a family seat like Winterfell, to separate from the crown as Balon and Robb tried to do, or quest for the throne), it’s the smallfolk who always suffer. Yet, I don’t think this is an aspect that can be eliminated. I think it’s an aspect that we can be made aware of and keep that in mind when making choices — no matter how righteous we think the cause is. Or alternatives, like negotiation and compromise.
Yeah, those are much of my own thoughts. I had also wondered if there’s something about climate change issues with the Others/Children of the Forest vs. humanity. Perhaps not climate change itself but the destructive impact these human societies have had in their wars against each other (but maybe there will be a consequence to the climate in there somewhere? The fumes of the sewer in crowded urban cities = greenhouse gas emissions ;D).
I think you made a good point about perhaps it being a natural next step for Jon to take in somehow finding out about the why of the Others just as he had with the wildlings, despite that being inadvertent and a result of the experience Jon had living with them and why it’s of so much consequence to “the other side”.
In regard to the weirwood, I seem to recall this being a conflict between the Children of the Forest and the First Men because they were cutting down sacred trees to build with, using it only as a material and not respecting the importance/power that it held for another culture. And they had come to a tentative truce when they joined forces to fight the Long Night, eventually creating the Wall. I think this is elaborated upon in The World of Ice and Fire but I’ll check that text later!
Adrianacandle,
Clarification!
When I said, “Yet just like how magical isn’t inherently evil (it just is), being a warg isn’t, in itself, inherently evil,” what I meant by ‘it just is’ is that magic just exists — not for good or bad but it just exists in this world, the way elements (and interactions between elements) do in ours. In ASOIAF (or Planeteos), magic feels like an another natural element to their world. Even when “dormant”, it’s still in things like the weirwood, Winterfell itself, the Wall… even some people (and by no choice of their own, it’s just in them). Not as something artificial but more like something as part of nature.
Typo!
*I don’t really think [magic] can really be eliminated.
(The word was formerly ‘can’t’, going against the very point I was trying make XD;)
Adrianacandle,
More typos/clarification!
*I don’t think [Bran] can *prevent or control people not to become faceless men.
*Bran can try to set a law like “the practice of magic will be persecuted” but that’s also leading down a bit of its *own dark path… (kind of like in the 2008 series ‘Merlin’!) especially when people in this world are born magic and it can be so much a part of *them.
Tron79,
Efi,
Btw, you guys, I think this is a very interesting discussion (and I think it’s a somewhat new one, which feels like a breath of fresh air!)
Ten Bears,
I thought that Ned, as Robert’s supposedly trusted friend, owed it to Robert to reveal the harsh truth that his kids were all incest bastards.
One of the major unexamined assumptions in the entire story holds that Robert did not know this. Many bad things can be said about Robert the man and Robert the king, but his being fundamentally stupid was not among them. In fact, the story begins with Robert understanding that (a) Jon Arryn’s death has left Robert in far over his head, and (b) he needs to get some of that good Stark blood into King’s Landing, to counterbalance the Lannisters. He clearly has no respect for his wife, and yet we placidly accept he doesn’t even think Cersei may have cheated on him.
Since the entire story depends on Ned’s bungling the succession crisis he himself had created, it means we could not have a great comedic scene where Ned “screws his courage to the sticking-place,” and in anguish tells Robert his suspicions. Robert roars back, “You think that’s not obvious?!? Never trust those golden-haired twats! Now help me one last time, and make a real man out of Joffrey before it’s too bloody late!” 🙂
Jai,
Thanks for the link to that Aeon article. Interesting.
I was travelling in India in 1987 and I remember hearing about the Ramayan series that shut down the country for an hour each week at that time, with whole villages (so we were excitedly told by rickshaw drivers and the newspapers) gathering in the one house with a TV antenna, etc. Event television indeed.
Yes, I noticed this at the time and remembered it when some fans started picking apart Season 8 by applying a requirement for realism and “logic” to a degree so impracticable such that it would be failed by any filmed drama, which by their nature (as theatrical productions do) must involve compromises and condensations – the dramatic license necessary for telling a story in that medium. This would include any previous episode of GoT, and that one was written by GRRM himself I believe. I loved the scene, and still do, but had to suspend my disbelief there (he can knock three guys out but can’t pick up one of their swords?).
It did at the time, slightly, I was confused by it. But it made sense to me on reflection: that Arya was not abandoning her connection to her home and family, but rather, now that she had reestablished that connection she had one last thing to do before pursuing her calling (to explore West, as it happened). But she was still part of the pack – just her own self, not somebody else’s wolf. And that seemed confirmed to me at the Stark goodbye scene on the KL docks at the end. She has the Stark wolf on her ship as she goes her way and is presumably sponsored by Sansa and Winterfell. I felt she remains part of the family and sees herself as returning someday – after her travels if she can – just not right after the Battle of King’s Landing which is what Sandor may have meant.
Another typo!!
*I don’t think it’s like a matter of people only seek power because they’re power hungry.
Efi,
I also wanted to add that even in wars that aren’t about power struggles to rule (like for humanity’s survival) in ASOIAF, there will still be innocent and powerless victims caught in the crossfire, who will suffer during and who will suffer after (especially if resources are depleted). But then again, the other choice is total annihilation. Yikes. And I think that’s part of the reality with ASOIAF — the costs, even if it’s to save humanity.
Martin himself isn’t entirely a war pacifist, feeling some wars are necessary:
With magic, I also think part of the idea is how it’s used but even with the best of intentions, the best reasons, and like with every choice, it’ll always have consequences, risk disaster — even when it’s a necessity or felt to be a necessity.
Magic might play a very important part in saving the realm (and I think it will), so perhaps it’s necessary in some cases… but I don’t think it’s so much a fix-it tool, a decidedly good or evil thing, or a thing that always leads to victimization or evil… but a force with unpredictability. It’s dangerous but sometimes needed and the choice to use it or not must be weighed out because there will be those consequences and risks. Like natural elements in our world.
There’s a cost to magic. It may be necessary to battle against threats to all of humanity but it’s not a fix-it.
I think that’s a lovely way of looking at it 🙂
I sometimes forget that Bran, no matter how much of a slog I found his ADWD chapters, is just a little boy and one who had lost a lot at that – the book version being of Bran being younger than the show version.
Northern Breeze, in 1968 pubs in the UK largely emptied to watch the version of “The Forsyte Saga” shot in 1997. Admittedly TV in the local alehouse wasn’t as common in 1968 as it is in 2020 and there were only three TV stations in the country then.
Adrianacandle,
I certainly agree that magic “just is” like a force of nature. It’s not magic itself, it’s that it is being used for some purpose and as it is described in the book, it’s not even clear whether there’s a good side to it. In the process people are hurt.
As the books stand now, magic may help to save the world, but it was magic that created the Others in the first place and it created the Wall, dividing the world. I don’t mean by itself, but as a tool in the hands of the CotF and men -because Brandon Stark created the Wall with magic.
There’s an inherent paradox (for lack of better word) in the theory that the Others are simply another world, or another people that has to co-exist in the wider context of Westeros’ world, and that is, as I am thinking, that the Westerosi world is one ridden with norms that perpetuate injustice and social weakness. The Targaryens used the magic of old Valyria to control dragons; they conquered a country and imposed their exceptionalism upon its people, thereby maintaining themselves above anyone else, like gods. In a similar manner men used magic to erect a Wall, keeping a part of men outside of their own “civilized” world. People of Westeros were weak because they didn’t have dragons, and people behind the Wall are weak because they are stuck in a place with very little means.
Yes, not all wars are just, and there are just wars, but why do they have to be fought with magic? In the course of westerosi time, magic created magic, a magical response triggered another magical manifestation so that, in the long run, magic simply contributes to blow things out of proportion. Thousands of people were excluded from the world of Westeros by staying behind the Wall, and thousands of people will die because the Others were created and thousands of people will die because Daenerys will come to Westeros with dragons. There are reasons for erecting the Wall, and reasons for hatching dragons out of stone, but the result is disastrous for those who can’t defend themselves against magic as an instrument of enforcement and those who wield it. The Others did not ask to be instrumentalized like that much like the people of KL (or Westeros in general) didn’t ask for dragons.
You quote Martin for the “hero of the other side” (not for the first time, I remember the argument). My objection to this (and Martin’s explanation) is that the Others are mute, just like all instruments are mute because they are things (they are not PoVs). It may be that “they are not dead”, but they did die once and that brings them inevitably to the magical sphere once they are resurrected. Although they are not quite the same because of this, the Others resemble a lot the people of KL; neither have a voice, they are just instruments or targeted objects in a game of magical forces and those who manipulate them. As the Others simply won’t die again, the only response to them is another magical element, dragonfire, dragonglass, and Valyrian steel.
So my question is: is that right? Is it right to perpetuate magic? I mean, yes, it is the only way fo fight back, but is it right to keep it around? And, in the end, what does the author mean to say with this?
Not that there is an answer; not that Martin will clear things. He blurs the narrative so much and lets the readers decide for themselves, hence happy endless speculation-theorizing hours!
I’ll end this post here (I have a monstrous paper to finish) but perhaps I’ll come back to Bran later. I’ll search for that extract in my break.
Efi,
Well, because it’s the user, that purpose differs — much like how people use power. However, unlike power, magic is a force of nature and unpredictable. It’s part of the environment, part of some people. It may not always bend to the user’s will. Another thing is that the person with magic may not be aware of their own magic they naturally have, they may resist it, or not know how to control it. It’s just part of them, as much as the iron in their blood is a part of them.
And depending on the user, if they’re aware and can control the magic (and sometimes they can’t or can’t fully understand it — even Melisandre doesn’t have a full grasp or control of her abilities), the purpose differs.
However, there is a positive side to it: for example, the direwolves themselves are magic. Wargs are magic. Ghost and Summer have both saved Bran and Jon. If not for magic, Bran and Jon would be dead already. If it was the Old Gods who sent the direwolves to the Stark kids and Jon, that’s also notable. Also, the Wall has prevented wights from breaking into Westeros, also saving the people.
Well, we don’t know yet where the Others came from or how they came to be in the books.
And that same Wall has also begun to protect Westeros from the supernatural threat beginning to re-emerge for some unknown purpose at this time.
But it’s not magic that kept the wildlings out or divided the world. It’s humans and their struggles for power and dominance (“we can live here but you can’t, you’re different”) barring their (easy) entrance — which is done with or without magic. And even if it was a magic-free world, these struggles won’t stop. People won’t stop suffering in these wars for control. People can always find something to weaponize if that’s their choice, magic or no, and they have. Even in a mostly-magic-free Westeros in which there are no Targaryens (and even in a Targaryen-run Westeros after there were no more dragons), people are still be oppressed, stigmatized, ostracized, and suffer as a result of the war between multiple houses vying for control.
However, the Wall’s magic itself will let any living in.
The Others are another… species (for lack of a better word)… that are now existing at the same time humanity is. Plus, we have next to knowledge what who the Others are, what they want, why they’re coming now, or why they’re doing what they’re doing. At this time, it’s hard to compare them to the Westerosi smallfolk and I don’t really see much of a similarity there.
I don’t want to get into an anti-Targaryen discussion but there are some Targaryens who weaponized their magic, yes. It was their tool of conquest, their sword, what they used to acquire power. And they did mate with one another to keep that magic as active as possible in their bloodline. But I don’t know if them considering themselves apart from other people (which many Valyrians did) and some considering themselves above others meant that they were inhuman as gods are or had the same power as gods. They were still subject to the gods they worshipped. And most of them didn’t exactly take on Euron’s attitude.
However, this — again — comes down to human choice on how to use magic, not magic itself.
(Part 1)
Efi,
Well, again, it’s not the magic that keeps other people out and that’s not at all why the Wall was erected. It was erected to defend against a supernatural inhuman threat. Instead, it was the following generations of humans that have used a wall to keep certain people out.
This wall doesn’t have to be magic to keep the wildlings out (and it hasn’t entirely — wildlings have scaled the Wall and gotten in to raid keeps and carry off daughters). We also don’t know how the Wall was built but we do know that it has an effectiveness against supernatural threats (for example, the dead south of the Wall can’t rise as wights, wights can’t seem to cross the Wall under their own power, and for some reason, Coldhands can’t cross the Wall either) and was built to defend against the Others so there is that necessity to it.
Well, not quite and this isn’t due to magic. Dragons gave conquerors a definite advantage but it’s not like it gave Targaryens guaranteed victory or made them beyond human. They still experienced rebellions (notably from Dorne, which the Targaryens had a lot of difficulty with), they still succumbed to human ailments, they still could only live normal lifespans. dragons did not guarantee their success as rulers. And dragons are not indestructible.
The wildlings also aren’t weak. They’re quite the opposite, they have managed to live in harsh lands. They don’t want to get behind the Wall because it’s warmer there, they want to get behind the Wall because things are coming at night and killing them off. And it’s believed the Wall can protect against that and (as far as we know) it can. Though against a mass of Others, it’s untested.
The Thenns, for example, don’t raid or reap south of the Wall to survive because they can create their tools, farm their own resources, get their own food, and live like this beyond the Wall. Other wildling bands choose to raid keeps and kidnap daughters.
Human wars don’t need to be, no, but if they can manage to harness magic (the way people in our own world can harness fire, water, air, and science as weapons), some will.
However, that’s not the only place where magic is manifested. Magic is manifested in many, many different areas in this world like a force of nature. It’s in the very sap of the weirwood, for instance.
However, I think supernatural threats will probably need magic though.
I don’t think building the Wall as a protection device against another Long Night is an out-of-proportion response — particularly since that threat has come again. It’s a preventative measure. It’s only after this threat went dormant for thousands of years that the Watch sort of lost sight of its original purpose and decided it was a good defense against other people who were attacking, raiding, and reaping the lands on the other side of it.
But that’s not because of magic.
We also don’t know where magic has come from but it does exist in many different forms and many different areas. It seems to be an element of the environment, not a created tool.
And thousands of people may live because of those same dragons and that same Wall when it comes time to confront and fight the Others. People have already benefited from the protection the Wall affords because wights can’t cross it under their own power and those who die south of the Wall do not rise as zombies for instance.
But if thousands of people do die because of how Daenerys uses her dragons (and we don’t know how she will yet) and that the wildlings were kept on the other side of the Wall — that’s due to human choice, not the existence of magic, which can’t really be gotten rid of or forbidden. And that’s not the only way magic is used.
(Part 2)
Efi,
And that same magic may also play a crucial role in saving those same people from the Others. Magic is not a fix-it by any means, there’s a cost, there’s risk, there’s danger because it is such its own force of nature that isn’t always at the will of the one wielding it. And, like power, it comes down to how people use it, for what purpose, and if they choose to weaponize it. And if they can control the magic and to what extent.
We don’t know anything about the Others or that they are being instrumentalized. I don’t think they are.
I wouldn’t say the Others are mute. I’d say the Others are unknown. We still know next to nothing about them and neither do the characters in-universe.
We also don’t know that they are resurrected being either. They could be another species of people entirely, ones who have always been alive. They can be immortal even. They aren’t wights who are resurrected from the dead.
Again, we don’t know any of this. We don’t know that the Others have no voice or agency. We don’t know that they are pawns. And I don’t think they are.
Well, it seems like these questions are based on taking a theory as fact rather than confirmed or indicated details (ie. the Others being “pawns” of another force. But what other force? And if human, they’re also exterminating themselves because the Others seem to want to exterminate all of humanity and why would this force/human they want that and to what end?). This is still unknown information. As a result, I don’t know how much these specific questions about the scenarios you’re describing are applicable to ASIOAF.
People in this world don’t have a choice whether or not magic sticks around — magic will stick around. It’s as much a part of the environment as the soil is, it’s in the blood of some people, some animals, it’s in Winterfell, in the lands fast East, it’s in some humanoid species (like the Children of the Forest) — it’s not simply a created tool to be used to one’s own end. And magic isn’t completely under the control of those who use it, as Martin warned. It’s dangerous, unpredictable, it’s its own force of nature.
But much like power, people do have a choice on how they use magic, if they use magic, and to what purpose.
That’s true, we can speculate on just about everything XD
Good luck with your paper!
Adrianacandle,
Typo fixes!
*people will still be oppressed, stigmatized, ostracized, and suffer as a result of the war between multiple houses vying for control.
*Plus, we have next to no knowledge on what or who the Others are, what they want, why they’re coming now, or why they’re doing what they’re doing.
*in the lands far East
(About the Others/White Walkers)
Ooh! I wish I had the time to join in with my far-fetched theory.
(Inner Earworm Voice, set to music:
“I want to put on,
my, my, my, my, my tinfoil hat…”)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m47EQtAMzI
🕺🏻 👨🚀
Dame of Mercia,
I imagine emptying the pubs, at that time in UK history, was impressive indeed. I think in the US about a decade later, with the advent of the TV mini-series with Roots and Shogun, there may have been a lesser version of that kind of phenomenon. But I was at school, so don’t really know.
Anybody spot my ‘deliberate’ mistake? No way were pubs in the 1960s closing for a series shot in 1997…the version of ‘The Forsyte Saga’ emptying pubs in 1968 was shot circa 1967 I think.
Dame of Mercia,
”Admittedly TV in the local alehouse wasn’t as common in 1968 as it is in 2020…”
Interesting that pubs used to empty out because patrons would go home or stay home to watch TV. Nowadays fans congregate in bars to watch TV shows as if they’re sporting events:
Adrianacandle,
My 11/11/20, 12:53 pm reply has finally been released from Moderation Purgatory. There’s a trampoline song in there…
Well, I hope this new earworm enjoys its stay… XD (Very, very catchy song!)
(Also, I appreciate the kind of irony that a song by K.C. and The Sunshine Band has been prompted by an Others discussion ;D)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EmrUMONVoAIuA1B?format=jpg&name=900×900
I am with Joe on this, that sex scene felt incredibly awkward and for me personnally was one of the most cringeworthy moments of the final season. The simple reason being we’ve seen Maisie grow up and honestly she’s still that little girl (her physical appearance also probably looks younger than she is). It’s not a slight on her as Maise is a brilliant actress and Arya one of my favourite GOT characters but I do wish they didn’t do it on film, it just felt too awkward.
Please don’t post any spoilers. I’ve bought it and plan to read it in the coming weeks/months. Going to read the Ice Dragon first though for my GOT fix.
Back to the topic of the post for a second (Gendry): A couple of questions for book readers & show watchers
I assume that in the books, like in the show (in S1e1), Robert Baratheon told Ned Stark [something like] “I have a son. You have a daughter. We’ll join our houses.”
Obviously, the plain intent was to arrange a marriage between Prince Joffrey “Baratheon” and Sansa “I Wanna Be a Queen” Stark.
Q1: Was this Robert’s way of reliving or fulfilling his (thwarted) expectation to marry Lyanna Stark?
Or, since Robert grew up with Ned and kind of considered him a brother (perhaps more so than Renly or Stannis?), was this Robert’s way of formalizing his bromance with Ned?
Q2: We’ve been discussing how cleverly constructed prophecies and predictions come true, albeit in unexpected ways (see, e.g., the witches’ prophecies in MacBeth which he misconstrued as assurances of his invincibility).
It seems to me that GRRM was setting up the eventual fulfillment of Robert’s insistence (suggestion?) that the Baratheons and Starks join houses by marrying his “son” to Ned’s daughter, although the intended match between Joffrey and Sansa fell through – and Joffrey wasn’t even his “son” – but Gendry was.
Q3: The show included a scene in which Ned, visiting Tobho Mott’s shop, identified Gendry as the spitting image of a young Robert. Was this in the books? If so, wouldn’t other folks who had known Robert also have recognized the resemblance?
I assumed Robert’s philandering and fathering lots of bastards was common knowledge. At the same time, perhaps it’s presumptuous to apply
modern genetics (e.g., dominant and recessive traits) to the world of ASOIAF.
Did the world at large not make the connection that the odds of Robert B fathering three blonde kids were infinitesimal?
I also assumed that since Ned was retracing Jon Arryn’s steps before he died, that
book! Jon Arryn and book! Stannis also recognized Gendry as Robert’s son. (Not sure if they also concluded Joffrey and Tommen were incest bastards, as Ned would come to realize after reading the genealogy book revealing that all Baratheons were dark-haired + hearing Sansa
whining that Joffrey was nothing like the drunk old king Robert and that she was meant to marry Prince Joffrey and give him “blonde haired” sons.
I guess my question is whether, in the books, the true parentage of Cersei’s three kids was an open secret, or if the public didn’t think anything of it – at least not until Ned disseminated “to whom it may concern” ravengrams to Stannis and others expressly declaring Stannis the true heir because Joffrey was not legitimate.
Q4: GRRM has often stated that he would not change his intended twists even if speculating readers had figured them out.
(In an excerpt or video of a GRRM interview recently quoted by Adrianacandle (I think), GRRM
likened this to writing a murder mystery story leading to the reveal that “the butler did it,” and how it would be disingenuous to change it to “the chambermaid did it” merely because readers had accurately predicted the intended reveal.)
So, notwithstanding the manner in which show! Gendry consummated his relationship with Ned’s daughter, and getting jilted by her after he was legitimized as Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End and proposed to her, do you think GRRM planned or plans to still joins the Baratheon Stark houses in the books?
It seems to me that GRRM may have been setting up this fulfillment of Robert’s words – though in an unexpected way, i.e., via Gendry: a juicy little twist, even if astute readers predicted it and casual “shippers” wanted it.
Q5: I get it that Arya “I don’t want to be a lady” Stark would decline a proposal to become Lady of Storm’s End. [I practically yelled at Gendry through my TV screen when he proposed marriage by asking her to be his “lady.” He should have known that was the worst way to propose to her! Maybe he was still hopped up on post-coital endorphins, post-battle dopamine, and post-legitimization pride…)
But might GRRM have been planning a union of houses without Ned’s gender role-defying daughter sacrificing her independence and desire for self-determination?
(I am NOT criticizing the show for depicting a one-night stand in S8e2, followed by a polite rejection in S8e4…and hardly acknowledging each other at the dragonpit summit in S8e6. I am merely suggesting that this conclusion didn’t “feel” like a GRRM-style resolution, even if it “subverted” happily ever after romantic tropes and defied audience expectations.)
Q6: Are there indications in the books that Gendry will (a) be identified publicly as Robert’s son; (b) become legitimized as Gendry Baratheon, and (c) ultimately fulfill Robert’s wishes?
Otherwise, wouldn’t legitimizing Gendry be extraneous to the story?
Q7: Along those lines, why have a “secret Stark” (“Arry the orphan boy”) develop a relationship with – and rescue – a “secret Baratheon” (“bastard boy named Gendry”) if the revelations of their real identities, and their relationship, came to naught?
Q8 ⚠️ Tinfoil Alert
I suppose Gendry Baratheon getting blown off by a “wild,” free-spirited Stark girl could serve as a bookend to – a replay of – Robert Baratheon getting blown off by a “wild,” free-spirited Stark girl.
On the other hand, Robert never got over his “love” even decades after the object of his affections was dead. (Arguably, one of the reasons Robert went to war was to reclaim his fiancé – though of course Brandon’s fury and the Mad King’s overreaction precipitated Jon Arryn “calling the banners” and commencing what would be known as “Robert’s Rebellion.”)
Would it be realistic for Gendry to just give up after one refusal? Granted, I am not an expert in human psychology. I just figured if Gendry’s declaration of love were sincere, and his affections deep and abiding, he wouldn’t give up so easily.
Also – correct me if I’m wrong – wasn’t there a books-only song or poem about “you can be my forest lass” or something? I remember reading that somewhere and thinking that presaged the kind of union Gendry would have, rather than a “traditional” lord & lady arrangement.
Q9 [Incidental Question/Comment]:
In ASOIAF, marriage alliances were a big thing; daughters were expected to honor engagements negotiated and agreed to by their fathers, no questions asked.
The show articulated this very well in Tywin’s demands that Cersei marry Loras, despite Cersei’s protestations that he had already sold her off as a broodmare once before. (Those exchanges actually made me feel sorry for Cersei.) Lysa Tully also was forced into a loveless marriage, with a geezer.
By contrast, Lyanna Stark disavowed her father’s promise, based on her “love” for or crush on the harp-playing, silver-haired dreamboat she met at a party: a married man who humiliated his own wife in public to crown his teen groupie as Queen of Love and Beauty.
Breaching marriage contracts was (supposed to be?) unthinkable. Or at least had serious repercussions. (See, e.g., Robb’s dishonoring his promise to enter into an arranged marriage to a Frey girl in exchange for bridge crossing; along with Lyanna’s unannounced elopement that breached her betrothal to Robert.)
Did show! Gendry’s proposal constitute a departure from the “women as chattel” concept of marriage? Was he free to propose to a high lord’s daughter without first securing the imprimatur of the patriarch of her House (Warden of the North Jon Snow?) or Lady of Winterfell (Sansa Stark?)
Joining House Stark and House Baratheon would be an advantageous alliance. But could Gendry formulate and pursue that on his own? How would that work – assuming the traditional rules were still in place?
I’m just trying to get an idea of what GRRM’s trajectory might be for Gendry, if any. I guess I am making assumptions that like in the show, book! Gendry will re-enter Arya’s life after many years apart; and that their early, innocent flirtations/friendship will blossom into something else once they’re older; but that its consummation will amount to more than a one-and-done hook-up. That almost felt like an anachronism, i.e., superimposing modern sensibilities on medieval-era based characters – though it could very well have mirrored the Lyanna-Rhaegar defiance of traditions, if we only got more details about their decision to run off together without telling anyone, under circumstances in which they’d have to foresee a Targ-Stark-Baratheon sh*tstorm erupting in their wake.
Ten Bears,
Oh, I think Robert definitely considered Ned a brother and felt more brotherly toward him than he did toward Stannis or Renly.
But I don’t think is proposal about a marriage between Sansa and Joffrey had anything to do with Lyanna. I think it was only because he loved Ned, needed to arrange a marriage for his heir, Ned had a daughter, and in Robert’s mind, what could be more perfect? And on paper, without knowing any of the complexities of the situation (Joffrey’s… personality… as well as his real lineage), it did seem perfect.
Perhaps but I’m not sure. I have a hard time seeing the series with a 13/14-year old Arya married, particularly before she has the chance to freely explore (instead of having to live on the run and serving a magical secret assassins guild). Even if their marriage wouldn’t be conventional, marriage is a convention — especially for women (and it still is now, many still view women as a failure if they don’t marry though I’m hoping this view is changing). However, that’s not saying the possibility is ruled out at all (this is just speculation) and they may agree to marry a few years in the future 🙂
I think it was but Gendry was one of the smallfolk, nobles weren’t looking too closely at him. And it’s not like Robert was out in the streets of King’s Landing a whole lot so I doubt many would make that connection aside from those who both met Gendry and knew Robert very well, which was Ned.
Well, even in those days, a brunette father and a blonde mother can have three blonde children. It’s not totally infinitesimal, especially if Robert was a carrier for a blonde gene. Even Ned didn’t look twice at this fact… until Sansa’s words got him to make some connections he hadn’t before (after meeting Gendry, which most nobles hadn’t) and he did some Baratheon “geneology” research.
That said, I think there were rumours but not many were willing to speak these aloud, I imagine, for fear of Lannister wrath or Baratheon wrath. Stannis definitely thought Joffrey wasn’t a Baratheon though.
However, it’s Edric Storm who Stannis and Melisandre tried sacrificing before Davos’s intervention in the books, not Gendry.
Not that I can really remember but Gendry isn’t really a prominent character. Robert already has acknowledged bastards around — namely, Edric Storm and Mya Stone.
Perhaps a gender-reversed parallel of Ned and Robert, who shared a great friendship and considered each other family?
Of course, this isn’t to say that I’m ruling a marital/romantic union between these two out! That may very well happen! I’m just not sure either way because Arya was/is so young still.
Well, as a woman (and speaking for myself), if I said “no” to a proposal and the guy still kept at it, I’d find that irritating, not endearing. A version of this has happened with me and I ended up cutting him off. So I think Gendry was smart here 😉
I think Gendry would need to ask for the approval of Jon and/or Sansa if Arya had said yes.
As for the books, there is Mya Stone and Edric Storm, two acknowledged bastards of Robert Baratheon, so Gendry wouldn’t necessarily need to be legitimized in order to continue the Baratheon line and he wouldn’t be the only Baratheon option.
We will probably get those details if the 2+ books are ever released!
But because you are so curious about the books, Ten Bears, I really really urge you to read them so you can form your own speculations and conclusions 🙂 I know you have reservations because GRRM may never finish but they’ll answer a lot of your questions and give you a basis to formulate your own theories!
I wish I could be more through but I’m painting my apartment right now (periwinkle! Dad is horrified!)
Adrianacandle,
”Perhaps but I’m not sure. I have a hard time seeing the series with a 13/14-year old Arya married, particularly before she has the chance to freely explore (instead of having to live on the run and serving a magical secret assassin guild…)”
Argghhh! My apologies. It slipped my mind that the show aged up many book! characters. especially the Stark kids. Also, if I remember correctly, GRRM toyed with the idea of a 5(?) year chronological gap before rejecting that literary device – which would suggest that book! Arya will still be a preteen when she leaves Braavos, instead of the 17- or 18-year old young woman we saw in S7 and S8 of the show.
Thank you for (and lemme read through) your other replies.
Most important: Enjoy your painting!
🧑🎨
Adrianacandle,
”Well, as a woman (and speaking for myself), if I said “no” to a proposal and the guy still kept at it, I’d find that irritating, not endearing. A version of this has happened with me and I ended up cutting him off. So I think Gendry was smart here 😉.”
My apologies. I phrased that incorrectly. No means no; persisting makes a guy a stalker.
I just perceived Gendry’s pitch as the worst one he could possibly make: “Be the Lady of Storm’s End.” He ought to have known better.
I expected him to at least regroup and propose: “F*ck Storm’s End! Forget all this lords and ladies crap. Let’s go on adventures together! Anywhere you want to go, anything you want to do!”
(Damn. This is where a musical interlude would come in handy to excoriate boys who want to take a girl “and hide her away from the rest of the world,” when she “want[s] to be the one to walk in the sun.”)
Ten Bears,
Yes! You remember right! It seems he couldn’t make the time jump work. And I don’t think this means Gendry and Arya can’t come together in some way but perhaps in the future?
You know, Arya might make this proposal to him from her ship a few years down the road 😉 “Be my first mate! Let’s sail around the world and discover all the oddities of the unknown so west-it’s-east!”
And girls just want to have fun 🤩
(still painting! Will be more thorough later! Looking a bit like the Friends apartment!)
Adrianacandle,
”You know, Arya might make this proposal to him from her ship a few years down the road 😉 “Be my first mate! Let’s sail around the world and discover all the oddities of the unknown so west-it’s-east!”
The fan-service geek in me would like that.
Or, maybe Gendry at first declines her offer, then realizes what an idiot he was, and winds up sailing ”around the world, looking for that woman girl.” [musical reference omitted]
I ought to go do some real work – or better yet, paint rockets.
Best wishes for a mirror-like finish on whatever you’re painting.
Adrianacandle,
”But because you are so curious about the books, Ten Bears, I really really urge you to read them so you can form your own speculations and conclusions 🙂 I know you have reservations because GRRM may never finish but they’ll answer a lot of your questions and give you a basis to formulate your own theories!”
Yeah. I know. You’re right. I should not be imposing on book readers to help me make show! vs. book! comparisons, and speculate about GRRM’s intentions.
As you noted, I’m reluctant to start reading the books, not only because I’m afraid GRRM will never finish them and I don’t want to be left hanging like millions of other readers – but because I’m afraid I’ll really enjoy reading them. That would make their abrupt cessation, leaving unfinished storylines and unresolved mysteries, all the more frustrating.
However, there is another reason – and this is kind of selfish and presumptuous of me:
I had come up with a heavy duty tinfoil theory,
which proceeded on the tenuous assumption that the show was a self-contained narrative, and the clues and factoids needed to resolve the books’ mysteries were embedded in the show’s dialogue and visuals. (At least it seemed that way through parts of S5, and one or two episodes of S6, e.g., “The Door.” After that it seemed those earlier “hung guns” were left unfired or just ignored.)
Alternatively, I figure the showrunners were compelled to abandon mysteries set up in earlier seasons because GRRM never supplied their resolutions.
If (and it’s a big if) the show’s writers, including GRRM himself through S4, purposely embedded clues into the scripts and settings, I didn’t want to confuse myself with extraneous or divergent books! details.
(Does any of this make sense? 🤔)
”I wish I could be more through but I’m painting my apartment right now (periwinkle! Dad is horrified!)”
You HAVE been thorough. Thank you.
BTW, I assumed you were painting a craft project or shelving. I did not realize you were painting an (entire) apartment!
Ten Bears,
Oh, I get it. I primarily encourage it not because I feel you’re imposing or anything but because I always feel it’s always better to review the source material for one’s self because then it’s not filtered through the mind/perspective/blind spots/biases of another 🙂 So there could be an aspect to this that I’ve very well missed and you might pick up on because it would be one if your focuses!
Yeah, there is likely some of that, GRRM being unable to supply the resolutions at the time (or still). However, I think there’s also the issue of adaptation distillation (simplifying a series of very complex books, cutting characters, combining characters) and toning down much of the magic and prophecy bits. I think this is especially pertinent when GRRM refers to the “butterfly effect” 🙂
Not that they weren’t following a basic outline and trying to hit those significant plot beats/points but the in-between stuff, the journeys, how they resolve the mysteries and prophecies may differ.
As GRRM observed, he can be as in-depth as he likes and add scenes without having to worry about going over a time limit.
And from the very beginning, D&D recalled (via the Austin Film Festival 2019 interview) that they were trying to appeal to a broader audience rather than just a niche, genre audience who’d traditionally be the audience for more fantasy/magic-based stuff:
As a result, a lot of this stuff crucial to answering the mysteries of the books are in the books but we still have no real idea over how it’ll go 🙂
(And yes! You do make sense!)
Oh, thank-you, Ten Bears!! If I think of more, and there’s probably more, I’ll provide it tomorrow after a nice sleep! Yes, apartment painting will be going on for the next little bit! Got a ton done today, rocket shelf almost done!! (Trying to get that mirror finish…! ;D)
Has anyone shopped at Tobacco Stop? 😉