George R.R. Martin updates us on The Winds of Winter and House of the Dragon

Mandatory Credit: Photo by Jose Mendez/Epa/REX/Shutterstock (8462326b) Us Writer George R R Martin Attends a Press Conference During the 30th Edition of the Guadalajara International Book Fair (fil) in Guadalajara Mexico 02 December 2016 Mexico Guadalajara Mexico Literature - Dec 2016 US writer George R.R. Martin attends a press conference during the 30th edition of the Guadalajara International Book Fair (FIL), in Guadalajara, Mexico, 02 December 2016.

George R.R. Martin who, last we heard was “deep in the heart of Westeros,” has taken to his Not A Blog to grace us with some juicy updates on The Winds of Winter and House of the Dragon.

He begins his Not A Blog post with a touch of salt, observing, “Sometimes I do get the feeling that most of you reading my posts here care more about what is happening in Westeros than what is happening in the United States.”

I admit, the first time I read this I worried that this was a thesis statement, that the entire post would be an examination of why some people (#NotAllFans) prioritize fictional politics over real ones. Fortunately, I was wrong. Martin doesn’t mention the United States again. Rather, in the very next sentence he assures us that he is still plugging away at The Winds of Winter.

“No, sorry, still not done, but I do inch closer. It is a big big book. I try not to dwell on that too much. I write a chapter at a time, a page at a time, a sentence at a time, a word at a time. It is the only way. And sometimes I rewrite.”

Specifically, he says that he’s been “spending a lot of time with the Lannisters,” especially Cersei and Tyrion, and has journeyed to Dorne and Oldtown. He’s also been revising chapters he’s already written, including ones that he read at cons “ages ago” and even posted online as samples.

This is particularly intriguing to me, because the eleven sample chapters that have been released in one form or another (Theon I, Victarion I, Tyrion I, Tyrion II, Arianne I, Arianne II, Barristan I, Barristan II, Mercy, Alayne I, The Forsaken) have been hitherto treated by the fandom as canon.

Now to be clear, Martin describes his revision process as “tweak[ing] stuff constantly, and sometimes go[ing] beyond tweaking, moving things around, combining chapters, breaking chapters in two, reordering stuff.” Nothing in his description suggests a complete overhaul of content. Still, we know that Martin takes the gardener approach to writing, letting his characters and plot lines grow organically. Who knows what changes have “grown” since 2011?

goo-eurongif-2mb


“On other fronts,” Martin writes “[W]ell, aside from Covd-19 slowing everything down, we are making great progress on the HBO prequel HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. Ryan [Sapochnik] and Miguel [Condal] are in London, casting has begun, it is all looking very exciting.”

He expresses less optimism, however, for other television projects that he’s involved in.

“I wish I could say that things are also going great on all the other television and film projects I am involved with, either as a producer” (*cough* Who Fears Death *cough*) “or as the author of the original source material (i.e. novels and short stories). I can’t. Very little shooting is taking place, and almost nothing is being greenlit. Of course, development continues… but there’s a reason they call it ‘development hell.’ Sigh.”

Martin ends his post with “Hang in there, friends,” and I don’t think I’m reaching when I say that a sense of exhaustion and stress is palpable in this post (who in the world isn’t exhausted and stressed right now?). But his updates are encouraging and I’m especially tantalized by the revisions he’s making to the chapters we think we’ve already read.

169 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Glad to hear he’s doing ok. The book can wait, I’m tired of people just constantly harassing him about it.

        Quote  Reply

    2. So does anyone know what the “gut punch” in August was that he talks about in this part of the blog entry?

      “I was really on a roll back in June and July. Progress has continued since then, but more slowly… I suffered a gut punch in early August that really had me down for a time, and another, for different reasons, in early September. But I slogged on, and of late I am picking up steam again.”

        Quote  Reply

    3. Breaking News! TWOW Still Not Done

      GRRM: “No, sorry, still not done, but I do inch closer. It is a big big book. I try not to dwell on that too much. I write a chapter at a time, a page at a time, a sentence at a time, a word at a time. It is the only way. And sometimes I rewrite.”

        Quote  Reply

    4. “Surprisingly” nothing new here regarding him sitll not being done with TWOW. Well, except for maybe the fact that he went back to “revise” already written chapters. This confirms my personal suspicions what could be the reason that he’s generally so slow with writing… that he’s likely doing firm rewrites as he goes along. I guess that’s where he lacks the “architectual approach”.

        Quote  Reply

    5. Ryan [Sapochnik] and Miguel [Condal] are in London, casting has begun, it is all looking very exciting”

      Hmm, shouldn’t that be the other way around with the surnames? I sure believed our beloved Miguel Sapochnik was involved…

        Quote  Reply

    6. Tron79 So does anyone know what the “gut punch” in August was that he talks about in this part of the blog entry?

      I had read somewhere on Reddit that someone he knew had died but I’ve no confirmation or anything!

        Quote  Reply

    7. Musical Interlude
      Dedicated to…
      GRRM

      🎶It’s your life
      And you can do what you want
      Do what you like
      But please don’t keep me waiting
      Please don’t keep me waiting

      ‘Cause I’m so tired
      Tired of waiting
      Tired of waiting for you
      So tired
      Tired of waiting
      Tired of waiting for you
      🎶

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uMQIqtD6Ik

      Tired of Waiting for You (1965)
      The Kinks

        Quote  Reply

    8. I write a chapter at a time, a page at a time, a sentence at a time, a word at a time. It is the only way. And sometimes I rewrite.

      As someone trying to finish a doctoral dissertation amidst a pandemic and with zoom supervisions, I relate to this so hard. I’ve never been one to be annoyed with GRRM’s slow writing process and I was only further sympathetic once I began my own writing up process (and I’m not anywhere near writing a behemouth as GRRM is). I do wonder if some of the things he’s tweaking and moving around are from sample chapters he’s released/read aloud at past cons. I am actually excited about Oldtown as last I remember, there was Faceless man present.

        Quote  Reply

    9. Ser Alan the tall,

      lol. Who? Comments on his blog go through his assistants, I doubt he opens his own mail. Dude is holed up at a mostly undisclosed location and hasn’t been in public in ages. As always, reports of GM being harassed are massively overblown. Fake news! Sad.

        Quote  Reply

    10. “a sentence at a time, a word at a time…”

      OK, I mustn’t groan, at least he’s working on it, but still…

      I wonder just how “big, big” TWOW is becoming? Too big to be published as a single book, in the practical, physical sense? If so, please, please, don’t let it be divided like AFFC/ADWD by POV and geography!

      Spending time with the Lannisters, esp. Tyrion and Cersei. Hmm. Tyrion at the battle of Meereen and its aftermath, trying to solve Meereenese problems, waiting for Dany? Meeting Dany?? But she has to do her Dothraki stuff first and it’s gonna take at least a few chapters. I just hope she can make a move towards Westeros, even if not actually arrive there, before the end of TWOW.

      Cersei..? Can she return to power? (spoiler from a preview chapter)

      Based on the Mercy chapter, it seems Cersei has returned to power in KL.

      And if Cersei indeed does return to power, how does she deal with problems facing her, e.g. Young Griff. Tommen’s and Myrcella’s fate?

      Journeying to Dorne… Hmm. The Darkstark chase and what it might result in? Doran learning Quentyn’s fate?? Involvement with YG?

      Oldtown… Euron stuff? Sam and Citadel stuff?

      Revisions… I hope it’s more of the tweaking kind than complete overhaul kind. For instance, moving chapters around might involve some tweaks so as not to spoil reveals in chapters that have been moved forward.

      As to the TV stuff, I get that GRRM is dissappointed but I’m selfishly glad he has fewer distractions.

        Quote  Reply

    11. Dark Sister: As someone trying to finish a doctoral dissertation amidst a pandemic and with zoom supervisions, I relate to this so hard. I’ve never been one to be annoyed with GRRM’s slow writing process and I was only further sympathetic once I began my own writing up process (and I’m not anywhere near writing a behemouth as GRRM is).

      Yeah. Though I’ve felt a kind of desperation and yearning for these final books (and have sort of given up hope in the way), I feel much the same as you — even with visual arts. I’m terribly slow myself and sometimes, if it’s just not there, it’s not. It’s not something that can really be forced and I can only imagine the pressure and frustration GRRM would be experiencing himself.

      talvikorppi: As to the TV stuff, I get that GRRM is dissappointed but I’m selfishly glad he has fewer distractions.

      And I relate to this too! TV shows have been a reason for why I’ve procrastinated when I was facing challenges with my work 😉

        Quote  Reply

    12. He is known for GoT, so naturally that’s what people are going to ask him about. If he’s so offended by getting so many questions about it then maybe he should just be honest and tell everyone he’s not going to finish, so people will stop asking.

      He dangles his unfinished books in front of his fans like a carrot and then gets confused why so many people are asking him about it.

      It might be better to hold off on these “updates” until there’s an actual update.

        Quote  Reply

    13. The longer it takes for Martin to finish the story (or even the next book), the more I think the showrunners deserve praise for managing to finish the story in a cohesive way (whether you like it or not). Martin, as of now, is literally incapable of finding a way to bring the story to any ending.
      That being said, I’m re-reading the ASOIAF books again, and enjoying them as always. And I do wish (against hope) to have a full book-version of the story, regardless of how much I liked the TV-version.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Ten Bears,

      So, I’m ready to do Episode 2, Vengeful Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.

      I was thinking you’re the one with the vision for this one. I’m happy to be the editor/technician to get it done. The official Cyndi video is 4:26 which you can find here
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A

      Can you post a timeline sequence with what clips you want at approximately what time (or with what words from the song). If you can map out the order of the clips you envision (or things like include her laugh from the vale edited together with these scenes here…) I can get it done… Keep in mind we may need to skip Arya killing Polliver during episode 1 season 4 if you want it to appear on YouTube since YouTube seems to block the Two Swords episode no matter what… Or I can include it and put it on Vimeo since my Episode 1 is still up and running.

        Quote  Reply

    15. talvikorppi:
      “a sentence at a time, a word at a time…”

      OK, I mustn’t groan, at least he’s working on it, but still…

      I wonder just how “big, big” TWOW is becoming? Too big to be published as a single book, in the practical, physical sense? If so, please, please, don’t let it be divided like AFFC/ADWD by POV and geography!

      Spending time with the Lannisters, esp. Tyrion and Cersei. Hmm. Tyrion at the battle of Meereen and its aftermath, trying to solve Meereenese problems, waiting for Dany? Meeting Dany?? But she has to do her Dothraki stuff first and it’s gonna take at least a few chapters. I just hope she can make a move towards Westeros, even if not actually arrive there, before the end of TWOW.

      Cersei..? Can she return to power? (spoiler from a preview chapter)

      And if Cersei indeed does return to power, how does she deal with problems facing her, e.g. Young Griff. Tommen’s and Myrcella’s fate?

      Journeying to Dorne… Hmm. The Darkstark chase and what it might result in? Doran learning Quentyn’s fate?? Involvement with YG?

      Oldtown… Euron stuff? Sam and Citadel stuff?

      Revisions… I hope it’s more of the tweaking kind than complete overhaul kind. For instance, moving chapters around might involve some tweaks so as not to spoil reveals in chapters that have been moved forward.

      As to the TV stuff, I get that GRRM is dissappointed but I’m selfishly glad he has fewer distractions.

      I agree that it sounds like it’s becoming another AFFC/ADWD. I had estimated awhile back that two 1000 page books wasn’t enough to finish the story with the pace of the other books. I was estimating about 3000 pages which would be two 1500 page books, or really three 1000 page books. I wonder if they will just publish a 1500 page book for TWOW or if they will force him to split it. I was someone who read the books after the show and read affc/adwd as one big book. I think many enjoyed it more reading it that way, so I’m hoping they just let him publish a 1500 pager if that’s what it ends up being… Hopefully we won’t have to wait for the first woman to land on the moon before we get it… (that’s supposed to happen in 2024)

        Quote  Reply

    16. Tron79: Vengeful Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.

      Beautiful title 🙂

      Jai: [link to GRRM’s blog about the death of Susan Ellison]

      Thank-you for the link — yes, I’d certainly think this would be the gut punch.

        Quote  Reply

    17. Adrianacandle,

      I suspect the gut punches and slowdowns beginning in September had to do with…

      • George’s beloved New York Jets are 0-9, including getting shut out by the rebuilding Miami Dolphins 24-0 on October 18, and blowing a 10-point lead with 6:05 left in the fourth quarter against the Tom Brady-less New England Patriots to lose 30-27 this past Monday night.

      • The equally hapless New York Giants are 2-7, after barely squeaking by the awful, unnamed Washington football team* 20-19 on Oct. 18 and 23-20 this past Sunday.

      * Formerly known as the Washington Redskins, until socially conscious Arya Stark intervened and unnamed them.

      from S2e8 (at 1:27):

      Jaqen: “Unname me. Please.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBaVqcilmc0

      Note: “All Roads Lead to Arya”
      – ancient Roman adage

        Quote  Reply

    18. Ten Bears: and blowing a 10-point lead with 6:05 left in the fourth quarter against the Tom Brady-less New England Patriots to lose 30-27 this past Monday night.

      Don’t you mean the Tom Brady-led Tampa Bay Buccaneers?

        Quote  Reply

    19. Tron79:
      Ten Bears,

      So, I’m ready to do Episode 2, Vengeful Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.

      I was thinking you’re the one with the vision for this one. I’m happy to be the editor/technician to get it done. The official Cyndi video is 4:26 which you can find here

      [link omitted – TB]

      Can you post a timeline sequence with what clips you want at approximately what time (or with what words from the song). If you can map out the order of the clips you envision (or things like include her laugh from the vale edited together with these scenes here…) I can get it done… Keep in mind we may need to skip Arya killing Polliver during episode 1 season 4 if you want it to appear on YouTube since YouTube seems to block the Two Swords episode no matter what… Or I can include it and put it on Vimeo since my Episode 1 is still up and running.

      • Yes! I’d be happy to do this “storyboarding.” Can you give me a few days to go back and look at my suggested outtakes and excerpts?

      • You asked: “If you can map out the order of the clips you envision (or things like include her laugh from the Vale edited together with these scenes here…) I can get it done.”

      A: Just point out the nearest map shop and I’ll buy you one. (Sorry, Tron. I couldn’t resist. 🙃)

      • As for Arya killing Polliver (along with the goon she knocked out and then skewered with a sword) in S4e1, is it possible that using the full-length clip of that scene caused YouTube to block the “Two Chickens” – I mean “Two Swords” episode excerpts?
      You did say that YouTube “seems to block the Two Swords episode no matter what,” so I’m guessing you’ve tried other, shorter clips, to no avail.

      • In my view, “Vengeful Girls Just Want To Have Fun” without Arya performing a hamstring bisection and tracheotomy on Polliver, after administering a battlefield anesthetic (concussion) to perform a colostomy on his goon, just wouldn’t be the same.

      I’d prefer your suggestion to “include it and put it on Vimeo.”

      • Finally, am I correct in assuming that the projected total length of “Vengeful Girls Just Want To Have Fun” will be around 4 1/2 minutes (the 4:26 length of “Girls Just Want to Have Fun”)?
      That would make the task of constructing a timeline sequence a little easier, e.g., selecting brief “prelude” excerpts of Arya practicing with various weapons (Needle; knife; dagger; bow and arrow; spear; poison?); using those weapons to dispatch bad guys; and interspersing a few laughing snippets (e.g., S4e8 at the Bloody Gate, and maybe even her “Seven Hells!” reaction to Sansa from S1).

      • I’ll try to keep an approximate running time count on any excerpts I suggest.
      Otherwise, without constraints, my Arya “having fun” compilation would require an entire album’s worth of songs from Cyndi Lauper’s “She’s So Unusual.” 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    20. Ten Bears:

      My answers are bold under your responses:

      • Yes! I’d be happy to do this “storyboarding.” Can you give me a few days to go back and look at my suggested outtakes and excerpts?
      Of course

      A: Just point out the nearest map shop and I’ll buy you one. (Sorry, Tron. I couldn’t resist. 🙃)
      I set myself up really well for that one!!


      • As for Arya killing Polliver (along with the goon she knocked out and then skewered with a sword) in S4e1, is it possible that using the full-length clip of that scene caused YouTube to block the “Two Chickens” – I mean “Two Swords” episode excerpts?You did say that YouTube “seems to block the Two Swords episode no matter what,” so I’m guessing you’ve tried other, shorter clips, to no avail.

      • In my view, “Vengeful Girls Just Want To Have Fun” without Arya performing a hamstring bisection and tracheotomy on Polliver, after administering a battlefield anesthetic (concussion) to perform a colostomy on his goon, just wouldn’t be the same.
      I’d prefer your suggestion to “
      include it and put it on Vimeo.”

      I’ll just include it then. I’ll put it on Vimeo if necessary, but I’ll try YouTube first. I didn’t actually try shorter clips to see if it made a difference. In Episode 1, I needed the entire scene, and I really enjoy watching that entire scene! I watched the whole episode 1 last night on TV for the first time. I can view it on YouTube as long as I log into my own account, so I logged into my tron account on my roku. It was awesome quality. There was no artifacting (pixelization) on TV at all (even for the long night part) I think you can view it on TV with Vimeo if you have the Vimeo APP, but Vimeo’s search sucks on Roku. I read I can add the video to my watchlist and it will show up on the Roku that way….anyway, the short answer is, YES I will include those critical scenes with Polliver et al…


      • Finally, am I correct in assuming that the projected total length of “Vengeful Girls Just Want To Have Fun” will be around 4 1/2 minutes (the 4:26 length of “Girls Just Want to Have Fun”)? That would make the task of constructing a timeline sequence a little easier, e.g., selecting brief “prelude” excerpts of Arya practicing with various weapons (Needle; knife; dagger; bow and arrow; spear; poison?);using those weapons to dispatch bad guys; and interspersing a few laughing snippets (e.g., S4e8 at the Bloody Gate, and maybe even her “Seven Hells!” reaction to Sansa from S1).

      YES, we can make it match up exactly with the Girls Just Wanna Have fun soundtrack, so it’s about 4 1/2 minutes.


      • I’ll try to keep an approximate running time count on any excerpts I suggest.Otherwise, without constraints, my Arya “having fun” compilation would require an entire album’s worth of songs from Cyndi Lauper’s
      “She’s So Unusual.”🙂

      Yes very true, which is how Episode 1 became supersized at 70 minutes!
      Luckily, Cyndi did have an incredible catalog of amazing songs. She has impressive vocal performances with her slower ballads to go along with her pop voice everyone remembers with SHE BOP and Girls Just Wanna Have Fun…..

        Quote  Reply

    21. oierem,
      Agree!
      D&D made good and bad decisions
      I would have love a 10 episodes seventh season or even 9 seasons total, but at least they finnished mayor stoylines very well (Hodor, BOTB, Frey pie, Baelor) and gave as an ending,

        Quote  Reply

    22. Tron79,

      ”Luckily, Cyndi did have an incredible catalog of amazing songs. She has impressive vocal performances with her slower ballads to go along with her pop voice everyone remembers with SHE BOP and Girls Just Wanna Have Fun…..”

      —————

      If we ever needed another “bouncy” tune, there are snippets of “She Bop” that could be used on the soundtrack to “Vengeful Girls.”

      (I’ve found that her live performances are as good as, if not better than, the studio versions. I liked her go-go dancer vibe in this live version):

      “She Bop” – Cyndi Lauper live in Paris, 1987
      6:05 long

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XHUNuY7OcY

      Here are a few snippets that could apply to ASNAWP:

      • Heading south to KL to take out Cersei Lannister in S8e4 (or insisting “I’m going to kill her” in S8e5 and joking/not-joking “I’m going to kill the queen” to Lannister soldiers in S7e1):

      🎶Do I want to go out with a lion’s roar?
      Huh, yeah, I want to go south
      and get me some more.”
      🎶

      • Consequence of diverting from her FM assignments, and stalking and whacking Meryn F*cking Trant: going blind in S5e10:

      🎶“…They say I’d better stop
      or I’ll go blind.”
      🎶

      • For scenes of Sandor chaperoning her and protecting her from her own impetuous behavior in dangerous situations (e.g., jumping off their horse to attack the camping Frey doofus; trying to rush into the Twins):

      🎶They say I better get a chaperone
      Because I can’t stop messin’
      with the danger zone.”
      🎶

        Quote  Reply

    23. Adrianacandle,

      hdm related (there are a number of GOT tie ins, but not much in this post)

      so, from season 1, did you think Will was too old at 15 or 16? He’s not really supposed to be going through puberty yet is he? Or are they saying he’s more of an adult around 17 or 18? Lyra didn’t bug me quite as much, but she did look quite a bit older than Roger… I’m guessing they are thinking they go through a change in their mid teens, but tying it to Game of Thrones, it’s more like what happened to Sansa that got Cersei excited that she could now have a child

        Quote  Reply

    24. Adrianacandle,

      continued…

      I think I may have had this same discussion with you last year. I recall you may have been more bugged than me about Lyra’s age onscreen.

      It’s interesting though that what I do for a living is teach bar and bat mitzvahs. The bar mitzvah age for a boy is 13 and for a girl you are allowed to have one at 12 (but most wait until 13). It’s the coming of age time that they determined from 2000+ years ago. Will is just alot older than that, so it threw me. They even said he was 15 on the show. Lyra could pass for 11 or 12 at the beginning of the series, but Roger looks more like 10 or 11. The interesting thing that matches up with “Dust” is the Jewish concept of the Yetzer Harah and Yezter Hatov. The Yetzer Harah is said to be the “evil” inclination and the Yetzer Hatov is the “good” inclination. Evil is not really the right word. It’s more the animal instincts or things like the ambition to provide for your family or build something. It is said that before Bar Mitzvah age, the child only has the Yetzer Harah! (the evil inclination), and it’s up to the parents to control the child. It’s not the child’s responsibility until he/she becomes of age (12 for a girl and 13 for a boy as i said before). Once they are post bar/bat mitzvah, then they are seen as a jewish adult and they take on the responsibility for their own behavior and release the parents of that responsibility! In orthodox services there is a special prayer that the parents say about it. I guess the Yezter Hatov (the good inclination) would be the DUST! so it’s a bit opposite from the followers of the “authority” who believe the children are innocent and get sin later. It’s almost the other way around in judaism…. but however you say it, I think the age is younger than 15 or 16 wouldn’t you?
      As Jon said to Arya when he gave her needle, “do you like the balance”.. Balance is really the key. You need both inclinations to succeed in life, and it’s the idea of finding the balance. Without the yetzer harah the rabbis suggest that people would just sit around (not quite like zombees, but they would lack motivation to do anything!) Those ambitions or wants or desires come from the “Harah” inclination, but have to be controlled so they don’t go too far.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Ten Bears,

      Wow. I never listened that closely to the words in that one! Who knew that’s what she was saying! The video starts with these robot walking people but Cyndi is in her car mostly hidden.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Ten Bears: I suspect the gut punches and slowdowns beginning in September had to do with…

      • George’s beloved New York Jets are 0-9, including getting shut out by the rebuilding Miami Dolphins 24-0 on October 18, and blowing a 10-point lead with 6:05 left in the fourth quarter against the Tom Brady-less New England Patriots to lose 30-27 this past Monday night.

      • The equally hapless New York Giants are 2-7, after barely squeaking by the awful, unnamed Washington football team* 20-19 on Oct. 18 and 23-20 this past Sunday.

      * Formerly known as the Washington Redskins, until socially conscious Arya Stark intervened and unnamed them.

      from S2e8 (at 1:27):

      Jaqen: “Unname me. Please.”

      I got to admit — if I had been a sports fan, those definitely would have been gut punches for me! 😉 My mum is a huge hockey and football fan so when her teams lose (Winnipeg), she does get into a bit of a funk.

      Tron79,

      Great musings, Tron! I have a lot to say but I just have to go out for a few hours — I’ll be back later tonight with a reply! In the meantime, I’ll be thinking a lot about your comments. I also had some questions and observations myself.

      Yeah, I believe Will is supposed to be 12 years old in The Subtle Knife, just a year older than Lyra, who I think is still 11 (Mrs Coulter says she is 12 in Amber Spyglass, I think). The actors who play Lyra (Dafne Keen) and Will (Amir Wilson) are 11 months apart in age with Keen having been born in January 2005 while Wilson was born in February 2004.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Was kinda hoping Ser Allen the Fail would provide evidence of an ongoing harassment campaign directed at his bff, but instead there’s a bunch of folk jerking each other off with booktalk. Mind the papercuts!

      There’s a forum section, ya know.

        Quote  Reply

    28. Tron79:
      Ten Bears,

      Wow. I never listened that closely to the words in that one! Who knew that’s what she was saying! The video starts with these robot walking people but Cyndi is in her car mostly hidden.

      I did not know until recently that “She Bop” is about

      auto-erotic self-stimulation.

      . While I like the energy of the song and Cyndi Lauper’s singing, I thought the music video was kind of goofy, starting with. e.g., “the robot walking people.” However, the video’s got “Easter Eggs” sprinkled throughout, e.g.,

      ”Self-Service” sign

      . All very subtle. I didn’t catch on. In retrospect, I wonder if she could have gotten away with performing that song on Johnny Carson’s show in 1984 had the producers and censors realized what it was really about.

      I had excerpted the lyrics in my 3:58 pm comment a few weeks ago, before realizing what they really meant.

      I’d rather think of “going south” and “going out with a lion’s roar” to refer to a kamikaze mission to kill the Lannister lion(ess). I prefer to interpret the advisability of getting a chaperone (like Sandor) because of Arya’s penchant for messing around in danger zones.

      And so on…

      Catchy song though. The first time I listened to it in its entirety, recently, was when I watched the YouTube clip of her September, 1984 appearance on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson. But I got immediately distracted by her hilarious interview, and then got blown away her “impressive vocal performance with [one of] her slower ballads” to close out the show: “All Through the Night.” (In a reply to you in a previous thread I commented about her live rendition; that reply got stuck in moderation.)

        Quote  Reply

    29. Adrianacandle,

      ”Though I’ve felt a kind of desperation and yearning for these final books (and have sort of given up hope in the way), I feel much the same as you….
      ……
      “And I relate to this too! TV shows have been a reason for why I’ve procrastinated when I was facing challenges with my work.”

      🤔 🎶

        Quote  Reply

    30. Tron79,

      ”Hopefully we won’t have to wait for the first woman to land on the moon before we get it…”

      🤔🎶 He’s making you wait. He’s keeping you waiting…

        Quote  Reply

    31. Musical Interlude
      Dedicated from book
      readers to GRRM

      🎶We can never know about
      the days to come
      But we think about them anyway
      And I wonder
      if I’m really with you now
      Or just chasing after some finer day.

      Anticipation, anticipation
      Is making me late
      It’s keeping me waiting.🎶

      “Anticipation” (1971) Carly Simon

      • Carly Simon, “Anticipation” – Live on Martha’s Vineyard, June 9, 1987

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NwP3wes4M8

      —-
      “Anticipation” – Live on Queen Mary 2, in 2005

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZgmSo_8560

      📆

        Quote  Reply

    32. Ten Bears,

      This is pretty much the perfect song.

      Especially when, during some of my contemplations on if the books will ever come out, I’ve been outside on my way to one place or another and… my own hair has been blowing in the wind, not unlike Carly Simon’s (on particular painful anticipation outdoor contemplations, this can be accompanied by cold rain and shards of ice-snow).

      “The good old days” — pre-ordering TWOW. In 2011.

        Quote  Reply

    33. Tron79,

      so, from season 1, did you think Will was too old at 15 or 16? He’s not really supposed to be going through puberty yet is he? Or are they saying he’s more of an adult around 17 or 18?

      Oh, I certainly thought so too!

      I normally don’t mind when kid characters are aged up by a few years (especially with some of the kids in GoT, who were aged up by about three years) but because puberty and its connection to Dust (or sin) is such a central (if not the central) feature in HDM, I think it’s an issue here.

      I’m guessing they are thinking they go through a change in their mid teens

      Perhaps! And, of course, this can and does happen. That was the case with me!

      From everything I’ve read (though I’m not a doctor), puberty is usually completed by about 14 years of age. Kids may still keep growing, of course, but by 14, most girls are able to physically conceive a child (which I think is supposed to mark the end of physical sexual maturation?).

      In ASOIAF, Sansa was 11-12 when she first started menstruating while in the show, I think she was 13-14. 14 is usually to be considered on the later side of things but it’s certainly not unheard of, just more uncommon. I was 15 and if I had gotten to 16 or 17 without it happening, I would have had to have been seen by a doctor. I was definitely considered late.

      For reference, if it helps any, here’s a link from a far better source than me on the stages of puberty and when it typically occurs.

      I think I may have had this same discussion with you last year. I recall you may have been more bugged than me about Lyra’s age onscreen.

      Right. For me, it’s just that Lyra didn’t look 12 years old (or maybe pre-pubescent). Dafne Keen definitely look 14 to me. 14 is certainly a child and not, by any means, a woman! But… Keen didn’t really look pre-pubescent. She looked like a typical 14-year old girl who had developed.

      However, that’s not to say all girls are developed by 14. From what I read, most are (physically) but not all. However, I think that’s reflected in their physique if they have (or have not) gone through puberty.

      In every other show, this wouldn’t be an issue whatsoever but because puberty and “the change” is such a focus in HDM, yeah…

      It’s interesting though that what I do for a living is teach bar and bat mitzvahs. The bar mitzvah age for a boy is 13 and for a girl you are allowed to have one at 12 (but most wait until 13). It’s the coming of age time that they determined from 2000+ years ago.

      Oh, that’s interesting! I’d be interested to know why girls are permitted to come of age at 12 but boys much wait until 13!

      Will is just alot older than that, so it threw me. They even said he was 15 on the show.

      You’re right! I think it’s mentioned in 1×08:

      This is DI Walters to Control. Circulating ops to all units in the Oxford area for last name Parry, first name William. 15-year-old male, around five foot seven. Likely on foot.

      And I think boys, by that time, have completed puberty — which sort of puts him in a very different position than 12-year old Will in the books.

      Unless, like you’ve said, the show is putting puberty as happening in mid-teens (and completing in late teens). But, like Keen, Wilson looks like’s he’s already undergone that process to me. I also wouldn’t consider 15 to be a man but I would say Wilson looks like he’s completed (or near completed) puberty.

      I can definitely see the connections you make between Dust and Yetzer Hatov (pre-coming-of-age) and Yetzer-Harah (post-coming-of-age) and that transition between childhood and adulthood.

      I guess the Yezter Hatov (the good inclination) would be the DUST! so it’s a bit opposite from the followers of the “authority” who believe the children are innocent and get sin later. It’s almost the other way around in judaism…. but however you say it, I think the age is younger than 15 or 16 wouldn’t you?

      Yeah. I think The Church believes Dust to be “sin” and before kids hit puberty, they are not susceptible to Dust (or sin) in the way adults are. It’s that physical sexual maturation that seems to push kids across that threshold and why they are trying to sever daemons from kids before they hit that point.

      As Jon said to Arya when he gave her needle, “do you like the balance”.. Balance is really the key. You need both inclinations to succeed in life, and it’s the idea of finding the balance. Without the yetzer harah the rabbis suggest that people would just sit around (not quite like zombees, but they would lack motivation to do anything!) Those ambitions or wants or desires come from the “Harah” inclination, but have to be controlled so they don’t go too far.

      True! And more than just the physical development we go through after completing puberty but, as we talked about a few days ago, how this transition is often accompanied by (hopefully) the awareness that life isn’t black and white. There are complexities, nuances, and difficulties that make the world around us difficult, surprising, and hard to place and we are also vulnerable to things that compromise us in many ways. And how we learn to navigate these issues.

        Quote  Reply

    34. Adrianacandle,

      Thanks so much for the response and being so open. After writing this one, I’m writing way too much, so HDM must have sparked something. GOT deals with religions as well, but sorry for the GOT derailment to others who are reading… I can probably write another post about the religions of GOT, and all roads will lead back to Arya again with the religion of THOBAW.

      I think Will’s age threw me more the Lyra’s because I could buy her being 11 at the beginning, but…

      ..as she got to the end of season 1 and reconnected with Roger, she seemed significantly older than him. I think you are right that she did really look more like 14ish. It may seem like we are getting stuck on age, but it’s central to the whole theme of HDM. As we know by the end of book 3, the change happens. It was smart that they filmed the first two seasons together, or the age factor just wouldn’t have worked for me at all.

      I always assumed girls were allowed to have their bat Mitzvah ceremony at 12 because they matured more quickly than boys. I just researched some just now and one source says it goes back to Adam and Eve! Hence another connection to HDM! And taken further, one of the words in the description of Eve being created from the rib can translate to “understanding”…. Here’s a quote from something I just read.. “The word translated as “built,” vayiven, can also mean “and He gave her understanding,” implying that G‑d created a woman in such a way that she reaches mental maturity earlier than a man.”

      At our synagogue we don’t use the pronoun “he” for G-d btw. We just replace it with G-d. But the whole idea of “understanding” is interesting, because that’s another major theme of HDM. Seeking knowledge and being able to understand the universe is a big part of that bite of the Apple.

      Some actors can look much younger than their actual age. I think Maisie Williams fits that mold, partly because she is short! Most people equate height with age.

      I also don’t really enjoy discussing politics, but thinking about Dust and the Yetzer Harah (the evil inclination) made me thing of the recent arguments I’m hearing about capitalism vs. socialism. Capitalism is always communicated as the evil system, much like the Yetzer Harah is the evil inclination.

      I visited a Kibbutz a few years ago in Israel. The original Kibbutzim were setup as idealistic socialist communities where everyone made the same and everything was shared. But the one I visited had changed to a capitalist model because the socialist model just wasn’t working. Here’s a quote from an article I found talking about the Kibbutz I visited (the full article is below).
      “Knowing that they would be paid no matter how much or how little they did, some people stopped working or stopped working hard, says Leah Snovskey, 38, who has lived in Deganya A since she was 5 years old. “The ideology justified the way of life they had,” she says of the kibbutz’s founders. “It doesn’t fit us anymore.””

      https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2007-03-08-0703080079-story.html

      This is a major concept of the Yetzer Harah. Yes, it may sound like the evil impulses, but without those impulses, people end up stagnating. It is said that kids under the age of puberty only have this evil inclination and can’t control it yet, because as you said they don’t have the understanding or wisdom yet. It’s up to their parents to give them the wisdom to control their impulses. It’s not about the sex part as you described for post maturity. It’s more of the “I want, I want” part when they are little. Just think about taking a child to the grocery store and waiting at the checkout line. They can’t control those impulses with the wisdom gained by the Yetzer Ha Tov yet. It’s up to the parents to control them until they come of age. Then it’s up to them! It’s like DUST being the wisdom and understanding that came from eating the apple.
      What gives capitalism a bad reputation are those who don’t control their Yetzer Harah impulses. It’s great to be driven to succeed, but not so great to be greedy, corrupt and abusive. So there has to be a balance! There’s that word again.

      Also, in a practical sense, Judaism was trying to avoid “dualism”. It was supposed to be a religion of one G-d after all. So, the Rabbis couldn’t put their arms around a system that would have two almost equal powers with a Devil and G-d fighting good against evil. To fix that problem, they came up with the idea that both good and evil were part of everyone and G-d created everything including both inclinations. It’s a nice philosophical concept that fixes the one G-d problem, but it leaves open many other problems for me. I suppose HDM does tap on all of those issues since it’s all a battle against the authority and Pullman I think would favor critical thinking as a positive. Judaism in fact favors it as well, since the word “Israel” can translate to “wrestling with G-d”.

      Fun stuff! Anyway, thanks for listening… I am so looking forward to season 2. I don’t normally think about this stuff in my day to day life. It’s down there lurking, but Pullman’s books do draw it out of me, and it will be nice to see how they come to life in season 2 and 3. …this last part doesn’t have to do with HDM…

      (this part didn’t have to do with HDM…)
      …..I think GRRM does similar things to me when thinking about power, and there are many parallels when watching our government here in the USA with GRRM’s books. I don’t know what to say about GRRM finishing. I feel spoiled that I did get to see the shows ending. And I read the books more recently so I haven’t been waiting as many years as others who read them when they came out. I do think he will come out with TWOW, but like others have said, I really doubt he will come out with ADOS. That’s Ok with me. I will be very excited to read whatever he writes. It’s really the journey that matters more than the end for me. If I think about most reality shows, I can’t remember who won. It was all about getting there. I’m watching the Voice again right now, and I can’t remember who won last season! Maybe that’s a bad example, but endings often feel anticlimactic to me. It’s also sad, because it is an ending and you can’t spend time with the characters anymore, so in some ways, it’s OK with me if it doesn’t end. But I would like to see what came next!!!!

        Quote  Reply

    35. Tron79,

      You posted some really great and engaging ideas in regard to Judaism and HDM! I’ll respond a little later today as it’s dentist time now (…avoiding the dentist for 12 years resulted in 9 cavities…) and for once, I had to sleep during actual night-time to prepare myself 😩😩😩 (watching YT videos on how they do fillings did not help so much, especially the drill part, but a clonazepam will!)

      You’ve given me a lot to think about!

        Quote  Reply

    36. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      You posted some really great and engaging ideas in regard to Judaism and HDM! I’ll respond a little later today as it’s dentist time now (…avoiding the dentist for 12 years resulted in 9 cavities…) and for once, I had to sleep during actual night-time to prepare myself 😩😩😩 (watching YT videos on how they do fillings did not help so much, especially the drill part, but a clonazepam will!)

      You’ve given me a lot to think about!

      OMG!! Poor you! Did your dentist have a quota to make or something?

        Quote  Reply

    37. Ten Bears: “They all float down here…”

      😨😨😨😨😨😨😨

      And as the dentist leans over me with the drill, Pennywise’s face gently floats into my head…. 😉

      Tron79: OMG!! Poor you! Did your dentist have a quota to make or something?

      Oh, it’s my fault, really! I have no excuse! My dentist is somebody I’ve been going to since I was 8 so there’s also that factor of returning all sheepishly and being like, “Hey! So… super busy 12 years…”

      When the dental hygienist first told me, “Oh, you only have 9 cavities, dear!” my response was, “Nine?!” She told me it’s not that bad, considering. I fear for what would be considered ‘bad’ 😨

      What else has she seen…. what horrors have dental hygienists encountered…

        Quote  Reply

    38. Adrianacandle: 😨😨😨😨😨😨😨

      And as the dentist leans over me with the drill, Pennywise’s face gently floats into my head…. 😉

      Oh, it’s my fault, really! I have no excuse! My dentist is somebody I’ve been going to since I was 8 so there’s also that factor of returning all sheepishly and being like, “Hey! So… super busy 12 years…”

      When the dental hygienist first told me, “Oh, you only have 9 cavities, dear!” my response was, “Nine?!” She told me it’s not that bad, considering. I fear for what would be considered ‘bad’ 😨

      What else has she seen…. what horrors have dental hygienists encountered…

      i had my dermotologist checkup this week..He said he was so proud of me and he said my skin looked great (because I never go outside 🙂 And then he still zapped two things off my face with the freezing stuff anyway. He said we might as well take care of these…I look like I’ve been in a fight today. I would hate to see what I would look like if he wasn’t proud of me!

      Here’s something to ponder about the mysteries and secrets of the universe while you are on drugs from the dentist… It has to do with dark matter from HDM…(well it reminded me of this)

      Well, I wrote this long thing out and it was totally confusing, so let me just say that I think there is merit in the “Simulation” theory of Quantum physics that says we are all part of an elaborate simulation. HDM uses alot from Quantum physics with the other worlds theory and dark matter. When you keep zooming down smaller and smaller things seem to break down. It begins looking more and more like someone programmed a simulation based on probabilities. We could have a Hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy discussion of Infinite Improbability Drives. My dream would be that we wouldn’t need spaceships to travel, because the idea of “traveling” would not be necessary. You could just program where you want to appear in the simulation once you understand how the program works. When you program a computer game, you can just make your object appear where you want it. It doesn’t have to move across the screen first to get it over to the right. You can just give it the coordinates of that spot on the right where you want it, and you’re done. I’m thinking there will be a way to do this with fields where you can manipulate the program so you can appear in different places in our universe… And perhaps we will figure out how to move between parallel worlds without needing to come up with a subtle knife. It would be cool to review your choices in the program before picking which way to go! OK, hopefully the drugs are helping.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Years ago while working in NYC, I went for my semi-annual clean with a new dentist in my office building. It was so convenient to do dental work just 2 floors down.

      To my horror, he advised that I had 4 cavities that needed work. I was astonished as it had been decades since I had a new cavity and just 6 months before my previous dentist had given me a clean bill of dental health.

      I dutifully made appointments and started my required work. For the first two, I was surprised that the filings were exactly where I had filings previously. He had simply changed my old filings. Hmmm, I thought. Odd.

      Due to travel, I needed to change my final appointment to a more distant date. Bothered by the replacements, I went in person to make the change and ask the staff for my chart to see which teeth were scheduled for the next two filings. The information provided was unclear, I needed to see the dentist and he was with a client. BUT I noted that one staffer gave me a look that any observant New Yorker can read. I canceled my appointments.

      A few months later, my unit was having a company workshop and over lunch, one inelegant guy complained that he had to go to the dentist as he had 6 filings to get done. Another person, said, Me too! It turned out that nearly everyone had a large number of filings scheduled with this SAME guy downstairs.

      We compared notes. Mostly replacement filings so far.

      Then it dawned on us that we were victims of a scam.

      It was a great scheme – We all had excellent dental insurance. We trusted health professionals. Normally professionals do not discuss details of health care – who tells their officemate that they have 10 cavities.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Tron79,

      I think you are right that she did really look more like 14ish. It may seem like we are getting stuck on age, but it’s central to the whole theme of HDM.

      Exactly. Normally, aging up characters by a few years really isn’t a big deal but yeah, “the change” is such a central focus to the core of HDM and what it means for Dust. And when it does happen at the end of book 3, it is significant — especially as Lyra is the new Eve and the Church wanted to prevent this prophecy from coming about.

      I just researched some just now and one source says it goes back to Adam and Eve! Hence another connection to HDM!

      And taken further, one of the words in the description of Eve being created from the rib can translate to “understanding”…. Here’s a quote from something I just read.. “The word translated as “built,” vayiven, can also mean “and He gave her understanding,” implying that G‑d created a woman in such a way that she reaches mental maturity earlier than a man.”

      Oh!! That’s a really intriguing connection!!

      But the whole idea of “understanding” is interesting, because that’s another major theme of HDM. Seeking knowledge and being able to understand the universe is a big part of that bite of the Apple.

      Right, and I think that’s connected to Dust — understanding, knowledge, and awareness. The ability to take in information and come to conclusions independently without the influence of the Church. Meanwhile, the Church wants people to come to conclusions and beliefs only they approve of.

      I think of that one woman who was severed from her daemon in the last season. She had no independent thoughts, no independent identity, her will was what the Church decided it was.

      Some actors can look much younger than their actual age. I think Maisie Williams fits that mold, partly because she is short! Most people equate height with age.

      Absolutely! And Bella Ramsey as well! She was born in September 2003, so she’s several months older than Dafne Keen but I think she looks younger.

      Also, in a practical sense, Judaism was trying to avoid “dualism”. It was supposed to be a religion of one G-d after all. So, the Rabbis couldn’t put their arms around a system that would have two almost equal powers with a Devil and G-d fighting good against evil. To fix that problem, they came up with the idea that both good and evil were part of everyone and G-d created everything including both inclinations. It’s a nice philosophical concept that fixes the one G-d problem, but it leaves open many other problems for me. I suppose HDM does tap on all of those issues since it’s all a battle against the authority and Pullman I think would favor critical thinking as a positive. Judaism in fact favors it as well, since the word “Israel” can translate to “wrestling with G-d”.

      I quite like this! And what you’ve said about how Yetzer Harah and Yetzer Ha Tov are both needed and work together.

      Kind of reminds me of when GRRM said this:

      We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, that’s the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as I’ve said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs.

      (Part 1)

        Quote  Reply

    41. Tron79,

      Fun stuff! Anyway, thanks for listening… I am so looking forward to season 2. I don’t normally think about this stuff in my day to day life. It’s down there lurking, but Pullman’s books do draw it out of me, and it will be nice to see how they come to life in season 2 and 3.

      Exactly! And I think you’ll enjoy this Sunday’s episode quite a bit! I really like these discussions which Pullman pulls(!) from us 🙂

      I do think he will come out with TWOW, but like others have said, I really doubt he will come out with ADOS. That’s Ok with me.

      These are my thoughts. I really want to see what he has planned but at the same time, we’ll get what we get and I’ll be happy for whatever I can get 🙂

      And great material re: the simulation theory of quantum physics that says we are all part of an elaborate simulation in connection to HDM and its different worlds, dark matter, and “windows”. I noticed some of that kind of language being used. I don’t have a lot of knowledge in this area — at all — so my understanding is extremely limited. However, I’ve heard my dad muse about these theories aloud. He’s a computational quantum chemist and I think he’s a believer in string theory. There was this time when we were exiting the town to go onto the Trans Canada highway and a car almost t-boned us. It missed us just in time but as we were driving into the city, Dad told me that it was probably at that moment, we both jumped timelines and in this timeline, we were alive. However, in our former timeline, we were killed and our funerals would be in the next few days XD;

      Typical dad talk!

      (And the drugs did help! A lot! And the material in your post was the perfect stuff to contemplate while zenned out and under the drill!)

        Quote  Reply

    42. Mango: Then it dawned on us that we were victims of a scam.

      It was a great scheme – We all had excellent dental insurance. We trusted health professionals. Normally professionals do not discuss details of health care – who tells their officemate that they have 10 cavities.

      Damn O_O

        Quote  Reply

    43. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      Exactly! And I think you’ll enjoy this Sunday’s episode quite a bit! I really like these discussions which Pullman pulls(!) from us 🙂

      These are my thoughts. I really want to see what he has planned but at the same time, we’ll get what we get and I’ll be happy for whatever I can get 🙂

      And great material re: the simulation theory of quantum physics that says we are all part of an elaborate simulation in connection to HDM and its different worlds, dark matter, and “windows”. I noticed some of that kind of language being used. I don’t have a lot of knowledge in this area — at all — so my understanding is extremely limited. However, I’ve heard my dad muse about these theories aloud. He’s a computational quantum chemist and I think he’s a believer in string theory. There was this time when we were exiting the town to go onto the Trans Canada highway and a car almost t-boned us. It missed us just in time but as we were driving into the city, Dad told me that it was probably at that moment, we both jumped timelines and in this timeline, we were alive. However, in our former timeline, we were killed and our funerals would be in the next few days XD;

      Typical dad talk!

      (And the drugs did help! A lot! And the material in your post was the perfect stuff to contemplate while zenned out and under the drill!)

      i’m sure it wasn’t funny dad talk at the time, but you got me laughing when he said in the other timeline your funerals would be in the next few days! A computational quantum chemist is a job title perfect for a character in a sci fi story, or perhaps a story filled with lots of inevitable family drama (the quantum probability would be very high)
      Glad you’re done with the dentist for today!

        Quote  Reply

    44. Tron79: i’m sure it wasn’t funny dad talk at the time, but you got me laughing when he said in the other timeline your funerals would be in the next few days! A computational quantum chemist is a job title perfect for a character in a sci fi story, or perhaps a story filled with lots of inevitable family drama (the quantum probability would be very high)
      Glad you’re done with the dentist for today!

      (Thanks! I’m so glad I’m done at the dentist’s for today too!)

      Yes, computational quantum chemist sounds totally made up! (I’ve had two friends mention that it seems more like something you’d hear in a sci-fi story XD) But it’s actually a thing!

      For years, I never knew what exactly he studied — I just knew it was some science and that he was a doctor of something (but not of anything medical — when he took me to get my ears pierced, he nearly fainted). It’s only just recently that I found out what he actually is… and it seems to suit him very, very well.

      I hope our graves in our previous timeline are nicely kept! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    45. Tron79,

      I’ve not made a secret of being in GRRM’s age group – I get adverts about funerals all the time on the internet. Rats! I know I’m old I don’t need it rubbed in !!! When the ‘global situation’ or pandemic or whatever people like to call it has subsided I shall need dental treatment. I’ve some fillings which have come out. At present I periodically use food grade hydrogen peroxide to swill my mouth out – though I haven’t stopped brushing my teeth I hasten to add.

      Rygritte:
      Oh, shit. I forgot Cersei and Tyrion were still alive.

      That’s a fairly mini-troll by your standards, Rygritte, or are you getting back into practice?

        Quote  Reply

    46. GRRM: “No, sorry, still not done, but I do inch closer. It is a big big book. I try not to dwell on that too much. I write a chapter at a time, a page at a time, a sentence at a time, a word at a time. It is the only way. And sometimes I rewrite.
      … Hang in there, friends.”

      Musical Interlude
      Dedicated to GRRM

      🎶…You didn’t realize
      that I was waiting

      Time goes slowly,
      but carries on
      And now the best years
      have come and gone
      You took me by surprise
      I didn’t realize
      that you were laughing. 🎶

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvzdtn43vnI

      “Laughing” (1969) The Guess Who

      ➖➖

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1Ffxl4T9Zc

      “Laughing” The Guess Who, live 2000

        Quote  Reply

    47. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVVgASDz8pM

      at 4:13:

      King Robert: “Nine years! Why haven’t I seen you? Where the hell have you been?”

      GRRM: “Gardening the North for you, Your Grace. Winterfell is yours.”

      King Robert: “What about The Winds of Winter?”

      GRRM: “No, sorry, still not done, but I do inch closer. It is a big big book. I try not to dwell on that too much. I write a chapter at a time, a page at a time, a sentence at a time, a word at a time. It is the only way. And sometimes I rewrite …”

      Arya Stark:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeWPDaxU6t8

      King Robert: “Aye! It’s been nine years. Finish the damn book before I piss myself!”

        Quote  Reply

    48. Hmm. This place seems to have descended into some weird Arya fandom central.

      Most comments by an older man creepily fanning on Arya/Maisie Williams.

      Not my kind of thing.

      ASNAWP was my quip, something to highlight tropes. It’s not my fault if people ran with it. And run and run and run with it. Jeehz! I created a monster… a critical thing became a fan fan thing. Sigh.

      The article was about GRRM’s blog, his TWOW progress. I thought discussion would be about TWOW, maybe even ADOS. I tried to write something about it.

      But no. Nobody wanted to discuss those things.

      Instead, it all soon got derailed, once again, into Arya talk and strange music interludes by an Arya superfan, and chat by his little coterie.

      Not very interesting for most of us. Sorry.

      Goodbye.

        Quote  Reply

    49. talvikorppi,

      You must do what is right for you, talvikorppi. Myself, I’m not against light banter. I don’t think there’s anything particularly creepy about somebody liking Arya as a character. (She actually wasn’t my favourite character though she was an interesting one). There’s not a lot to discuss about TWOW when in several consecutive postss GRRM announces that it’s not finished (after coming up on 10 years). Now GRRM says he may be changing some of the chapters he’s already written, which in my view could the delay of TWOW even longer. Still as I say, do what you feel content with. I wish you well.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Dame of Mercia:
      talvikorppi,

      You must do what is right for you, talvikorppi.Myself, I’m not against light banter.I don’t think there’s anything particularly creepy about somebody liking Arya as a character.(She actually wasn’t my favourite character though she was an interesting one).There’s not a lot to discuss about TWOW when in several consecutive postss GRRM announces that it’s not finished (after coming up on 10 years).Now GRRM says he may be changing some of the chapters he’s already written, which in my view could the delay of TWOW even longer.Still as I say, do what you feel content with.I wish you well.

      Trust you, O fair Dame of Mercia, to be kind, soothing, trying to bridge gaps. I’ve always valued your contributions. Thoughtful, intelligent, interesting.

      I vented because I thought, finally, here’s a topic we could discuss, TWOW speculation. I tried.

      But nobody took it up. Instead it derailed into Arya rah-rah-rah and Aryafan plans. Not interesting to me.

      It just seems this is not the place for me, at the moment. I miss all the fun and wide-ranging discussions we all had back in the day, waiting for S5, S6 etc., even right after S8. But times a-change, it’s time to move on. This site, especially the BTL comments, has become uninteresting to me, so it’s time to let go. I’ll miss all the good discussions, think fondly back at them, but it’s time to move on.

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    51. talvikorppi,

      I think part of the issue is that, without much new information, discussion over the unpublished books may have also hit a wall for some. Especially with multiple articles on updates from GRRM and/or comments from GRRM (but still not seeing TWOW), speculation over what will be in the unpublished books has been done over and over.
      In some ways, to me, it feels like every aspect that can be discussed, has been discussed. And for my part, while I’m happy to contribute to resulting discussion in relation to the unpublished books if my interest is sparked by a topic, if I have a passage to offer, if I have something I feel is of interest to offer, if I agree/disagree strongly enough, GRRM hasn’t offered a lot of new information to work with or speculate on, leading into some of the same debates for me. And I get sad over the prospect we may never see these books.

      (Although I’m certainly interested in progress updates — at the same time, we’ve been getting progress updates for 9 years without any sign of TWOW.)

      I’ve really enjoyed (and agree with) your book Arya posts that I’ve seen, talvikorppi! I think they’re really insightful.

      I also agree with Dame of Mercia and I think she worded things a lot better than I have. Personally, I enjoy the musical interludes and banter and I also really enjoy talking to others on this board but I understand if these aren’t of interest for you. I think you must do what is right for you. I’ve really enjoyed the insight you’ve shared on this board 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    52. talvikorppi:
      Hmm. This place seems to have descended into some weird Arya fandom central.

      Most comments by an older man creepily fanning on Arya/Maisie Williams.

      Not my kind of thing.

      ASNAWP was my quip, something to highlight tropes. It’s not my fault if people ran with it. And run and run and run with it. Jeehz! I created a monster… a critical thing became a fan fan thing. Sigh.

      The article was about GRRM’s blog, his TWOW progress. I thought discussion would be about TWOW, maybe even ADOS. I tried to write something about it.

      But no. Nobody wanted to discuss those things.

      Instead, it all soon got derailed, once again, into Arya talk and strange music interludes by an Arya superfan, and chat by his little coterie.

      Not very interesting for most of us. Sorry.

      Goodbye.

      Thanks for your post. It sparks a number of thoughts about keeping interest. I am curious what keeps you interested in GOT? Is it wondering what will come next in the books? I read the books mainly because I was upset/sad that the show ended and I wanted to get hints of where GRRM may go that could be different than the show.

      For me, I am obsessed with the Arya journey. It’s not necessarily just about Maisie Williams. I do follow her new projects, and she has tremendous talent. My interest I think is in the “Alice in Wonderland” type of story that Arya follows. She is someone who doesn’t fit in to societal norms who has tremendous strength and will. I also have a daughter who doesn’t fit into societal norms, and it probably makes these stories even more meaningful to me.

      I can say for me it does get harder to keep up the same amount of interest in GOT, but as I look over to my right on my desk GRRM’s books are staring at me along with a number of POP figures. My GOT desktop theme is staring back at me right now, so I’m still very interested. But my own interests have moved on some. I enjoy other SCI Fi and Fantasy. If I discuss them here, I try to have some GOT tie in. HDM is a good example. It’s another similar Alice in Wonderland type of story but there are many GOT tie ins with Lord Commander Moremont and Lyanna Moremont.

      With GRRM, I don’t really understand how a professional writer doesn’t have some sort of deadline. I certainly understand the creative process. I produced a prototype for a live action adventure computer game back in the 90’s. We shot it like a movie with live actors. We shot all possible scenes depending on the player’s choices. We just took way too long to get it perfect and we missed our window to sell it. By the time we got enough of it done to play the “trailer”, other things were already on the market and it was a tough lesson. I don’t understand how the publishers can’t give GRRM a deadline. Knowing from personal experience, no creative project has ever been perfect. I always have had to make compromises to get it done. I have produced albums for my choir with original pieces I wrote. After spending 2 years in the studio at some point, you just can’t keep changing things. It has to get done. You have investors and others who have to see something. So for me, when GRRM has a new blog that doesn’t say much of anything, it’s just frustrating. I have to think of other ways to keep my interest up. My latest project examining Arya’s journey really did keep my interest. I wasn’t trying to glorify Maisie as much as take a much more serious examination on how her character handled all of the trauma. The process of going through the clips and watching them again really helped keep me going and sparked a number of emotions about her journey. Perhaps I should do the same thing with other characters too. But for me, it’s hard to stay on topic sometimes, when things like HDM are happening now. The Witcher got me very excited. I’m into The Mandalorian with our GOT tie in Pedro Pascal. It’s just hard for me to delve too much into what happen next in the books when GRRM says the same thing again!! uggg.. It makes me depressed to think about it. But I am happy to talk about where you think things will be headed. Maybe it will get me thinking and snap me out of it wondering whether there will ever be TWOW and ADOS seems so far in the distance. I honestly don’t understand how they can’t give him a deadline. I think every artist makes compromises to get it done, or things would never end. My album project would still be going on to get it perfect if the investors didn’t ask when they will see something for their money. Maybe he made too much money for his investors by now that they don’t bug him… I really don’t get it.

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    53. talvikorppi: Thanks. The same right back at you!

      Thank-you!! 🙂 (And I’ve saved some of your book Arya posts! I think it was from you where I first read that Arya was a young girl using revenge as a coping strategy for all the trauma that has befallen her at such a young age and the situations she’s been forced into. That instead of Arya’s killing — and the skill with which she’s learned to kill — being a triumphant thing to be celebrated, perhaps it is something more damaging and scarring. I’d agree with that assessment.)

      Tron79,

      I think, at this point in time, it’s a bit frustrating to be a GoT/ASOIAF fan because yeah, there’s been so little new information on the story and GRRM is pretty much saying the same thing over and over and over again. I feel like I’ve speculated to death on things and the longer we wait, the more out-there theories get (making theories or speculation that had once been accepted years and years ago now seem too “obvious” to be what GRRM is going for due to all the rumination we’ve done because we’ve had so much time. As a result, those theories and speculation that were fresh 10, 20 years ago seem to be stale because they’ve been discussed so much and seem too “obvious”. Now, theories seem to get more and more convoluted to add interest and twist. I remember a discussion with Wimsey that had a lot of food for thought on that).

      With regard to GRRM, even with a deadline imposed upon him, I don’t think that’s going to make GRRM work any faster or get the book out. I don’t think it’s a matter of lack of pressure, GRRM not wanting to publish these books, or needing a kick in the pants to do so (the whole internet is kicking him in the butt for that!), I think it’s more a matter of him being stuck and perhaps feeling frustrated.

      And perhaps the added pressure (especially since the interest in ASOIAF just blew up with the popularity of the show) is hindering him.

      From personal experience that I’ve felt that when I’m in that place, it’s very very hard to get the juices flowing. And if those juices aren’t flowing right, things can really have a harder time coming together.

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    54. Tron79,

      Heeey, Tron!

      I was an “Arya” when a kid. Maybe still a bit. That’s why I like Arya and find her story (especially in the books) so engaging and interesting.

      What I do not like is blind glorifying her character, glorifying her supposed “badass” thing. A traumatised child resorting to violence because she can is not “badass”, it is not a good thing, it is a bad thing. Well, things are grey. That is why I get shitty about uncritical Arya rah-rah-rah fans. Arya is a great character but she’s not perfect, she’s got plenty of flaws.

      She’s bratty, spoiled, prejudiced, judgemental. She’s also loyal, empathetic, with a keen sense of right and wrong (as she sees it). She’s clever, intelligent. Has a rather high opinion of herself, yet feels insecure (what would mother think? – though daddy apparently was OK with most of her shenanigans). She’s this and that, a realistic person, not a superhero. If GRRM in the future books writes her as a superhero, I’ll go right off her.

      As to GRRM missing deadlines etc. Yeah, well, he’s rich enough by now that he doesn’t need the money from the next books. He can do his own thing, live in Westeros and make up yet more backstories to yet more minor characters, then write the books a sentence at a time, a word at a time. Sigh.

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    55. Tron79,

      ”We just took way too long to get it perfect and we missed our window to sell it…Knowing from personal experience, no creative project has ever been perfect. I always have had to make compromises to get it done…at some point, you just can’t keep changing things. It has to get done.
      … I think every artist makes compromises to get it done, or things would never end.”

      ——-
      I forget the exact quote I read once. It’s something like: “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” (Or maybe that’s something I recently read about circular firing squads and purity tests undermining a political party’s objectives or its worthy candidates?)

      Anyway, if I were an ASOIAF book reader, at this juncture I’d probably pay good money just to read GRRM’s rough draft. He’s created a fictional universe that has captivated a global audience. And fans that became invested in the show – whether they loved or loathed the way it ended – would presumably want to know how the creator intended to conclude the story, whether his manuscript is sloppy or polished.

      I’d bet many readers who’ve waited nearly ten years would be content with a TWOW that’s 75%
      “good” rather than 100% perfect.

      As for “missing the window,” that may have already closed for lots of fans once the show ended. They’ve since moved on to other books and other shows.

      Extensions, over-optimistic deadlines, second-guessing, re-writes, revisions, procrastination, etc. are all part of the creative process. But as you noted, at some point you “just can’t keep changing things. It has to get done,” even if it means making compromises.

      One other thing: From my admittedly limited perspective, I don’t think it would be such a bad idea to release whatever he’s written thus far in serialized form – like Charles Dickens did with many of his books. The public devoured each installment. I enjoyed the one TWOW sample chapter I’ve read. I would likely subscribe to a release of chapters on a once-a-month basis, even if they are not all self-contained literary masterpieces.

      Even as a show-only fan, I was intrigued by lots of unresolved mysteries set up by the show that were never really addressed in its final seasons. (We’ve been discussing those mysteries here at length, and speculating about their solutions.)
      Big G could answer all of those questions. He’s the only one who can.

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    56. Har har!

      It seems I’ve sparked up some conversation!

      It’d be great to retire with “my job here is done” quip… but I won’t be able to resist the temptation to maybe come back to some points raised in the discussion. MY discussion. Ha ha!

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    57. talvikorppi,

      Well, I’m glad someone likes my comments. I presently post less on a history forum I used to visit more frequently because someone made some acidic replies to some things I said. I won’t leave it altogether because that might be what the person wants. But that has nothing to do with GoT or this forum. There may be more ‘new’ content here when more news emerges about the Targaryen prequel – but of course at present the UK is in a second lockdown because of a certain confounded virus and the UK has been chosen for the shooting of the prequel. Incidentally, someone I know – used to be in the French conversation class I attend and lives not too far distant from me – is now in Finland with her husband or partner (I’m not sure which). He’s working over there and the virus infection she said was less virulent in Finland so it had been deemed okay for her to travel there with her husband.

      Adriana, I worded things so well that I said ‘postss’ instead of ‘posts’.

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    58. I’ll just mention that some of the comments which maybe seem to veer from the title of a topic might be due to the fact that the forums can be tempramental. A couple of times recently I’ve tried to either add to existing threads or start a new thread in the forums but when I go to post I get a message that I need to be logged in to post a comment. On all these occasions I have in fact logged in and have typed my comment only to be unable to get it to register. It is frustrating to have typed a comment for it not to register. I’m saying this because maybe some of the asides and banter could have been taken to the forums if only the forums were working properly.

      talvikorrpi – when you say ‘Har’ is that a book Tormund Har?

        Quote  Reply

    59. Dame of Mercia,

      There may be more ‘new’ content here when more news emerges about the Targaryen prequel – but of course at present the UK is in a second lockdown because of a certain confounded virus and the UK has been chosen for the shooting of the prequel.

      This is true! I look forward to discussion on that!

      Adriana, I worded things so well that I said ‘postss’ instead of ‘posts’.

      I didn’t even notice until you pointed it out! 🙂 I think that goes back to what I once learned about how the brain reads what it expects is there (ie. we read words as one entity rather than letter-by-letter), which makes proofreading our own work so impossible (because we’re reading what we’re thinking we said rather than what’s actually there).

      Plus, I make so so so many typos. Sometimes, I even make speak-os!

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    60. talvikorppi:
      Tron79,

      Heeey, Tron!

      I was an “Arya” when a kid. Maybe still a bit. That’s why I like Arya and find her story (especially in the books) so engaging and interesting.

      What I do not like is blind glorifying her character, glorifying her supposed “badass” thing. A traumatised child resorting to violence because she can is not “badass”, it is not a good thing, it is a bad thing. Well, things are grey. That is why I get shitty about uncritical Arya rah-rah-rah fans. Arya is a great character but she’s not perfect, she’s got plenty of flaws.

      She’s bratty, spoiled, prejudiced, judgemental. She’s also loyal, empathetic, with a keen sense of right and wrong (as she sees it). She’s clever, intelligent. Has a rather high opinion of herself, yet feels insecure (what would mother think? – though daddy apparently was OK with most of her shenanigans). She’s this and that, a realistic person, not a superhero. If GRRM in the future books writes her as a superhero, I’ll go right off her.

      As to GRRM missing deadlines etc. Yeah, well, he’s rich enough by now that he doesn’t need the money from the next books. He can do his own thing, live in Westeros and make up yet more backstories to yet more minor characters, then write the books a sentence at a time, a word at a time. Sigh.

      After reading your post, I’m thinking that show Arya really is quite a bit different than the book Arya that you describe. Thanks for letting me know about your own background and how you can identify with the character.

      Book Arya’s FM abilities seemed less about the magic of changing faces and more about the ability to blend in and learn about the culture. It was more about how to become a good spy. They barely touched the surface of this in the show. I also thought book Arya felt much more awkward about herself. I thought she had a much tougher fight with self identity than the show. The show glorified the “no one” journey, but in the book, she just couldn’t figure out her place anymore.

      I remember reading some of your posts about the superhero part of her character. I think after working on my video of her “show” journey “Arya’s Pigeons”, I wanted to cheer for her when she got revenge because she suffered so many tough losses. Speaking of super heros, Batman only lived through the loss of his parents. Arya had so many more people close to her either leave her or horribly die. I think in the books it won’t be as bad as the show, since the books have Lady Stoneheart. The problem in the show is that D&D made Arya Lady Stoneheart and poisoned over 60 people, etc… I actually much prefered my video’s ending to the shows ending. I ended with Arya and Sansa on the battlements from the finale of season 7. Arya had made it home and she realized she had to become something different than a “lady”. She realized that the Starks looked after each other as their pack. She was at peace with her sister and Sansa even complimented Arya for her strength. This seemed like the end of her journey to me. She was home and happy to be part of the Starks. She found her identity as one of their protectors and a warrior. Yes, she was the executioner for Little Finger, but it was a legal court case. She just didn’t go after him for revenge with her super powers. I think you didn’t want to see her start a new superhero show called “Avenging Angel”.

      But on the other hand, once D&D gave her those superpowers, it’s hard to put them back in the box.

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    61. talvikorppi,

      Whether it was Arya, Sandor, Theon, or other characters, we all perceive their stories from our own personal experiences and world views. Plus, show watchers had the luxury of seeing those multi-dimensional characters evolve over 73 episodes, aided by some excellent casting, and really fine acting and writing. Book readers have the advantage of GRRM’s portrayals of these complex characters and their “arcs.”

      I for one did not like Theon or appreciate Alfie Allen – until I read Petra’s incisive analyses. Upon rewatch I can now pick up on nuances I missed the first time around. That’s one benefit of reading others’ perspectives.

      Look, we can joke about ASNAWP and still appreciate the unique, nonconformist heroine and her eight-season long journey, as well as Maisie Williams’s performance.
      And I’ll be the first to jump on board with critiques that in some ways show! Arya came dangerously close to becoming Batman in latter seasons. (I may be in the minority in being displeased with Arya shanking NK in S8e3. It was a “rah rah” moment for many fans. Not for me. For that matter, I could’ve done without “Cleganebowl” too…)

        Quote  Reply

    62. Also, who’s a silly girl now? 😀

      I didn’t exactly flounce off, but ended a post with “goodbye”. And then went on to answer just about everybody who answered that goodbye post, ha ha.

      It’s almost as if I was fishing for comments, no? Almost trolling?

      It’s good to have conversations. It’s good to argy-bargy. It’s not good to get at the person, not the argument. I try not to do it, alas, often I fail.

        Quote  Reply

    63. talvikorppi,

      ”What would her mother think?”
      Probably: “When you gonna live your life right?”

      ”Though daddy apparently was OK with most of her shenanigans.”
      He’d still be concerned: “What you gonna do with your life!”

      And if Ned were still alive, she’d reassure him:

      ”Oh daddy dear, you know you’re still number one, but girls, they wanna have fun.”

        Quote  Reply

    64. Dame of Mercia:
      talvikorppi,

      Incidentally, someone I know –… – is now in Finland with her husband or partner (I’m not sure which).He’s working over there and the virus infection she said was less virulent in Finland so it had been deemed okay for her to travel there with her husband.

      It’s exactly same virus, exactly as virulent. The difference is that Finland, a large country with a small population, can easily “social distance”.

      We Finns “social distance” at the best of times. We don’t hug, kiss cheek. No. A handshake, a metre apart is our normal thing. (Close friends/family might hug, though seldom kiss). Government advice: No hugging or kissing cheeks. Kind of redundant.

      We’re naturally (culturally) socially distant people. Socially distancing supermarket queues isn’t a problem. We almost did it before, and now people are just glad they have an excuse to be 2 or even 3 metres from anybody else. We like SPACE.

      There’s never been a complete lockdown in my country. Lots of government advice, which most people follow. Wash hands, socially distance. Masks weren’t adviced in the spring (because there weren’t any available…), now masks are advised, and 2/3 of the people comply.

      Our Covid numbers are among the lowest in Europe. (even by 100,000 of population, as these things are recorded and studied). Maybe because of sparse population, maybe because in high-population-density areas people just follow government advice and social distance and wash their hands.

      One opposition party tried to gain political points on the government’s handling of Covid… Backfired. Even that party’s supporters thought the authorities and the health service were doing an amazing, great, outstanding job. Difficult for a fascist little rat to understand such popular opinion, its importance, its meaning.

      It’s far easier to just go along.

        Quote  Reply

    65. talvikorppi: We don’t hug, kiss cheek. No. A handshake, a metre apart is our normal thing. (Close friends/family might hug, though seldom kiss).

      To quote a Frasier scene (said by Niles, I believe): “A handshake is as good as a hug.”

      Words I embrace 😉

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    66. talvikorppi,

      About Oldtown, the main thread from there I’d like to see developed was about Marwyn the Mage, magic, and dragons. As we know from the epilogue to the fourth book, the Maesters of the Citadel want to

      drive magic from the world, and seem to have conspired to poison the dragons

      brought to Westeros by the Targs.

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    67. talvikorppi,

      it got a bit derailed, yes. i want the good old times of spoiled shooting in lowest quality back! “could these be Jorah, Sandor and Brienne riding against a bunch of dumb or dead people?”.
      we loved this, that’s why we were here all the time. what do we have now? waiting for a book that might be finished or not. waiting for news on a new tv show that has to deal with pandemic limiting the production massively. talking about Queen Cyndi. or about the in some cases breathtaking number of tv shows people can follow AND analyze… if we are not talking about people dieing like flies or about orange shit mammoths.

      that’s what we have here now, and it’s disracting us from the increasing bitterness of daily life in a pandemic, the world being out of order and GRRM taking the time he needs…

      how could this place offer more, now? the impact of stories told weekly is gone.

      what were the last comments of mine about? about Orange Walder and two times about musical interludes. if i’d watch as much tv as others do, i might engage in discussions about tv shows. i’m glad i don’t.

      instead, new terror is on the horizon. dentists. we all know they don’t breathe and live eternally. some of us have to face them. meeting the dentists is the only war that matters! have this in mind, always! so…

      – when staring into the light the dentist directs at your teeth, imagine you were Sitting Bull staring into the sun when doing the sundance before the battle of Little Bighorn. you’ll have a vision of all of your teeth falling from the sky, and you will like it.

      – there are two horrors dental hygienists (my memory, don’t want to scroll all these miles for correct spelling…) have: Rudy Giuliani’s lower jar. and mine wich is pretty giulianish after more than 30 years of heavy smoking and just a few visits to the toothmaesters. there’s no more flesh holding my teeth. it escaped and never got seen again.

      – it seems i’m responsible for the musical interludes coming from the noisier place. well, i can’t do that all the time, because i’m writing a book and because i’m building a boat. i’ll spend my time rowing it until TWOW is out. or i’ll just sail around the world. no, wait. i’m tired…

      better days will be!

      (at 9:43)

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    68. death by chickenfire,

      Omg you made me remember something about the dentist that has a GOT tie in. Actually it was the orthodontist. I remembered When I looked up from the chair past the orthodontist’s head I could see a double light. In the middle was a logo of a Knight in armor. I remember focusing directly on that Knight as I made it through the torture sessions. It was not to the level of Theon but I remember that Knight so clearly.

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    69. death by chickenfire: instead, new terror is on the horizon. dentists. we all know they don’t breathe and live eternally. some of us have to face them. meeting the dentists is the only war that matters! have this in mind, always! so…

      – when staring into the light the dentist directs at your teeth, imagine you were Sitting Bull staring into the sun when doing the sundance before the battle of Little Bighorn. you’ll have a vision of all of your teeth falling from the sky, and you will like it.

      – there are two horrors dental hygienists (my memory, don’t want to scroll all these miles for correct spelling…) have: Rudy Giuliani’s lower jar. and mine wich is pretty giulianish after more than 30 years of heavy smoking and just a few visits to the toothmaesters. there’s no more flesh holding my teeth. it escaped and never got seen again.

      Toothmaesters!!!

      (While my dentist was working on me, he was talking about hunting bighorn sheep and my ASOIAF connection to that is I wonder if there are toothmaesters who casually talk about hunting any bighorn sheep which may exist in the mountainous areas while torturing prisoners…? 🙂 And what instruments would a toothmaester use? A manually operated hand drill on raw, tender nerves with full feeling? Pulling teeth slowly and methodically while bones crack? Flossing?)

      And this: instead, new terror is on the horizon. dentists. we all know they don’t breathe and live eternally. some of us have to face them. meeting the dentists is the only war that matters!

      Absolutely!

      (And thanks for the music video!)

        Quote  Reply

    70. Adrianacandle,

      when you see this sign

      Dr med dent G. Clegane
      Dr med dent R. Bolton jr

      move on and ask some Dothraki if they could ride through your mouth!

      btw, the topic was TWOW, right? it should be done as long as there are living people on earth remembering winters. else it should be TWOCC. CC is easy to guess, i think.

        Quote  Reply

    71. death by chickenfire: when you see this sign

      Dr med dent G. Clegane
      Dr med dent R. Bolton jr

      move on and ask some Dothraki if they could ride through your mouth!

      btw, the topic was TWOW, right? it should be done as long as there are living people on earth remembering winters. else it should be TWOCC. CC is easy to guess, i think.

      I wonder how Dr. med dent E. Greyjoy and his lovely assistant Qyburn would do? 🙂

      Oh, the winds of climate change aren’t caressing my cheek yet up here in Calgary, not this week… I’m getting the traditional numbingly cold air and fat, wet snowflakes accompanied by wind-induced earaches 😉

        Quote  Reply

    72. I have not lived in Canada for years – every winter reminds me of why.

      Spring, summer, and fall are quite lovely.

      Spring in particular when the sunlight and air in Ontario are perfect.

      Winter…ughh!

        Quote  Reply

    73. Mango: Spring in particular when the sunlight and air in Ontario are perfect.

      Winter…ughh!

      Yes!! Ontario can be pretty brutal. Because it’s humid and gets really cold, it’s like being encased in ice anytime you’re outside.

      Meanwhile, during the super hot summer days, the moisture has you immediately sweating all over, encasing you in wet, sticky heat.

      But yes, falls and springtimes are top notch! 😀 Especially how you get all the colours (from bright green to deep red) in the leaves!

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    74. I rarely hope Winds is released next year, it already feels several years too late but if it doesn’t come soon then my interest will likely drop to very low levels as I have no hope the final book will ever be published. In the meantime I’m thinking to give the Ice Dragon a read.

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    75. A song for the occasion to go with the above mentioned “Oy vey”…LOL…not exactly on point with Martin and his slothfully slow pace…but it kind of conveys the gist of the issue…

      https://youtu.be/5jhocSCSZzk

      Please everyone have mercy on me for posting…this song…here…LOL…I know Foreigner tends to make some people give up the will to live because…well it’s Foreigner and their “music”…just kidding, in case any member or fans of Foreigner are reading this…

        Quote  Reply

    76. talvikorppi,

      Whether or not you were joking, I agree with most of your points. Throughout this year, comments thread after comments thread has been hijacked, derailed and effectively destroyed by a handful of people treating this website like their own private WhatsApp group; these incidents are frequently triggered by one person in particular obsessively spamming threads. Because of the linear visual format of the threads and the sheer number of (often long) irrelevant comments from such individuals, it can make the threads basically unreadable for everyone else.

      For what it’s worth, I think it would be worthwhile for WotW’s moderators to consider reformatting the website so that it supports multi-thread and sub-thread BTL discussions under the articles, similar to (for example) Reddit or Trekmovie.com. That way, people can go off on their tangents if they insist on continuing to do so, and it will not undermine everyone else’s ability to discuss on-topic subjects or the wider silent readership’s ability to follow and enjoy the main discussions on this website. It would probably attract a larger number of BTL commenters too.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Martin ends his post with “Hang in there, friends,” and I don’t think I’m reaching when I say that a sense of exhaustion and stress is palpable in this post (who in the world isn’t exhausted and stressed right now?). But his updates are encouraging and I’m especially tantalized by the revisions he’s making to the chapters we think we’ve already read.

      The ongoing delays may also be due to the nature of the plotlines. I’m sure many of us here have read the descriptions of GRRM finding it very disturbing to write the Red Wedding. Based on GoT, things in ASOIAF are going to continue getting very nasty indeed; the books are frequently even more psychologically brutal than the TV show (even when depicting the same events), plus GRRM has to get inside Dany’s head to realistically write POV chapters that (again based on GoT) we now know will describe her ultimately going full psychopath. So it wouldn’t be surprising if this is a major reason for GRRM’s apparent difficulties in pushing forward — the emotional demands on him may be considerable.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Jai: Based on GoT, things in ASOIAF are going to continue getting very nasty indeed; the books are frequently even more psychologically brutal than the TV show (even when depicting the same broad events), plus GRRM has to get inside Dany’s head to realistically write POV chapters that (again based on GoT) we now know will describe her ultimately going full psychopath. So it wouldn’t be surprising if this is a major reason for GRRM’s apparent difficulties in pushing forward — the emotional demands on him may be considerable.

      I’m not sure Dany will go full psychopath, I’m hoping it will be more nuanced than just turning her into a full psychotic villain with more of GRRM’s “human heart in conflict with itself” and having both good and evil in us all as she navigates the rest of her arc. However, I think she’ll probably destroy the city, yeah. At this point, I think it’s hard to say — especially with the extremely limited information we have — how exactly this will happen. There have already been quite a few book to show changes while the basic bones have been about the same.

      The confirmation on the three twists we have now is a) Hodor’s name origin (though GRRM says how this revelation will come about will be different), b) Stannis burns Shireen, and c) who ends up on the Iron Throne.

      Where I think GRRM is stuck is because he has set so much in motion, has so many plot lines to contend with and some of them are quite complex, it has become a mammoth task to tie them all together into cohesive narratives to reach the end. I don’t even know if it’ll end in only two books because so much still needs to happen and it feels like quite a few characters are still at their mid-point.

      In regard to your first post, I recognize I am one of those handful of individuals who go off topic and I apologize if I’ve ruined your enjoyment of the site. I think Tron, Dame of Mercia, and death by chickenfire have all made some good points on this and I think a major reason is now, we just have so little new material to chew on so we keep getting into the same debates over and over and over again (oh, the season 8 wars…).

      I miss those sweet pre-season hype days when we’d receive promo spots, photos, and speculate to death over those and what may possibly happen next season. Those were great times and so so exciting. I remember waiting with bated breath for Jack’s posts because he always seemed to know when new stuff would be coming on the upcoming season! However, since it’s been over 18 months since the finale and we’ve gotten into the same debates (or arguments) over and over and it’s been 9 years since TWOW, discussion can become a bit stale at times with a lack of new information. Myself, I enjoy the musical interlude links (and sometimes, I think they can do a lot to add some levity to some intense discussions), I like hearing about commenters’ creative works prompted by GoT and possibly helping out if it’s welcome and where I can, I like hearing about new projects ex-GoT people are working on, and I like getting to know other contributors on this board. I genuinely like so many people here as I’ve followed their posts since 2015.

      I think we’re just in a tough spot with the lack of new info to discuss. I was hoping House of the Dragon would freshen up discussion a bit but that’s been put on hold too. I think what’s needed is some new content :/

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    79. Jai,

      Jai, a problem which I have addressed before is that the forums aren’t working. The forums are somewhere that matters not directly connected to a particular thread could be aired but if they are kaput that option is out of the question at least temporarily. Well, the forums weren’t working when I last tried to use them which was quite recently. Briefly, I signed into the forums with my WOTW name and forums password. I entered something related to GoT but not particularly connected to a thread in the main site but when I came to submit my post I got a message that I needed to be logged into the forums to post. What the flip, I already WAS logged in. I tried a few more times but had no luck and gave up feeling frustrated. Now, I can’t promise that other people would use the forums if they were functioning properly but some might. If the forums were okay we could have, for example, an Arya, ninja princess appreciation thread for folk who appreciate Arya, ninja princess (or even for people to say they don’t see Arya as a ninja princess if they hold such a view to express their feelings). Or even a thread about music that makes us think of events/characters in GoT. I did open a few threads in the forum going back a bit but that was when I was able to get my posts to ‘take’.

      I don’t mind a certain amount of light-hearted banter and I’ll admit I have interacted with Adriana and Ten Bears sometimes. I’d like this place not to become sour. I did ‘leave’ here temporarily around the end of the TV show GoT because the atmosphere became somewhat acrid for a time. Okay for people to disagree with me but no reason for folks to be discourteous.

      Possibly people are feeling fraught because of the lockdown. I don’t know how things are where you live but in my country (the UK) we are in a second period of Covid-19 related quarantine until early December. I’ve still gone to the local shops but all my activities have been online (okay if I go for a walk round the block or even a bit further – I live quite near the countryside – that activity is in the real world but it doesn’t bring me into contact with folk). I think possibly people are getting stir-crazy and maybe patience is strained. TWOW doesn’t look as if it will be finished let alone published before 2021 and I have my doubts about it being published next year.

      To be honest, when I read the article above this and saw that GRRM said he’d been tinkering with some of the preview chapters my thoughts were something along the lines of “Ugh, that means even longer before the book is published if he’s fiddling with old stuff and not writing new stuff”.

      I’m not the thought police, however, and if you are not happy with how some of us post you are of course allowed an opinion.

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    80. I’m sure I mentioned this in some back in the day thread – or maybe on this site’s predecessor – that (before we had seasons 6, 7 and 8) I really wanted Tommen and Myrcella to live. I’d given myself some hope in my theorising that because a shroud can also be part of the rigging in a sailing boat (sail boat in North America) that the shrouds in Maggy the Frog’s prophecy might be that sort of shroud. Now, I wonder

      BOOK SPOILER
      BOOK SPOILER
      BOOK SPOILER
      (I’m cr*p at entering spoiler code and it often doesn’t work for me.

      if book Myrcella might die as a result of the wound Darkstar gives her festering very badly.

      END OF BOOK SPOILER

      Didn’t GRRM inform the public in a former update that wasn’t really an update that there would be a character that people thought was dead that was alive? That could be the Hound – or even Jon – or again it could be a completely different character. People have speculated about the Gravedigger’s identity or about Jon possibly warging into Ghost for years so they seem rather too obvious to be the character who is not really dead. I can’t remember all the characters who died in ADWD offhand. There’s Quentyn and Uncle Kevan (though he dies differently in the books to how he died in the show) who could be possibilities, I suppose. I don’t think it will be Benjen (though we may well see Benjen again) because Benjen is missing in action rather than definitively dead in the books. Going from memory I did try to start a forum thread about some of the theories I’d had before we had the show ending but as I said in my previous post I’ve had no luck using the forums of late.

      BTW I am getting a message that this site isn’t secure. Is that just my laptop or have other people had this message?

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    81. Dame of Mercia,

      I wonder if it could be Stannis? I remember people initially thought he was dead but then others were like, “Ramsay’s letter isn’t necessarily confirmation.”

      BTW I am getting a message that this site isn’t secure. Is that just my laptop or have other people had this message?

      Could it be because this site doesn’t have an SSL certificate? I’ve got SSL notifications for this site turned off but if you have them turned on, you may get a message like, “Your connection to this site is not secure.” Does that sound like what you’re getting?

        Quote  Reply

    82. Dame of Mercia,

      • For what it’s worth, the last time we discussed the Forum section, about a year or so ago, most commenters were unable to register despite following the instructions and waiting for confirmation.

      While I had been able to register and began posting replies, without the participation of the community at large it was like barking at the moon.

      • In fact, based on a humorous thread in the Comments Section here about a year or two about Night King as a shy, romantic fellow who only needed needed a hug and some hot chocolate, and liked walks on the beach and romantic ballads, we all began suggesting songs for a NK compilation album.

      I did not start that witty thread (sorry, I forget who did), yet I eagerly joined in and tentatively proposed the title, referencing Frank Sinatra: “Ol’ Blue Eyes is Back: Love Songs for the Long Night.”
      I suggested “Strangers in the Night” as one of the tracks.

      I bring this up because this was the origin of “Musical Interludes.” I had suggested we all collaborate on Forum Section pages with dedicated songs for each character. That proved to be impossible because of the registration snafus.

      In any case, especially now with the pandemic-necessitated isolation, I have relished other commenters’ song suggestions, and nobody seemed troubled by mine. I enjoy listening to music from all genres I’ve never heard before, thanks to recommendations by other commenters. Since I usually title my posts as “Musical Interlude” in bold font, perhaps anyone who’s not interested can simply… skip over them???

      • With the dearth of GoT or prequel news; the never-ending wait for TWOW; the futility of debating points on the show we’ve already debated to death; and “the new abnormal” in the world in 2020, veering off-topic is almost inevitable. I don’t mind reading what others are up to and thinking about.

      • Final comment: I would suggest that anyone tempted to condemn (or commend) our semi-off topic musical discussions and collaborations, take a look at Tron79’s amazing “Arya’s Pigeons” video.

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    83. Dame of Mercia,

      ”BTW I am getting a message that this site isn’t secure. Is that just my laptop or have other people had this message?”

      Yes, I was getting that message for a while. Not recently though.

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    84. Ten Bears,

      I don’t know why there’s this push to transfer all of the conversation to the forum section. Nobody uses it, and the people who run this site clearly don’t care about it or maintain it, otherwise they would be immensely more helpful when it came to actually being able to use the forum section.

      I get that the forum section allows certain conversations to be more centralized, but there’s so little GoT news that it seems unnecessary. Especially when there’s a new article maybe once a week at most right now.

      Speaking of barking at the moon, here’s your musical interlude:

        Quote  Reply

    85. Mr Derp,

      I wasn’t particularly ‘pushing’ to transfer parts of the conversation to the forums but I thought that if the forums were working correctly then the removal to that location of discussions which are tangential to the main subject of the thread (or any threads) might be a pragmatic solution to solve any problem some folk had about keeping threads on the straight and narrow. It was a suggestion – I’m not the site police anymore than I am the thought police.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Dame of Mercia,

      There’s nothing wrong with the suggestion. I wasn’t trying to convey that there was. It’s perfectly fine if you want to use the forum section.

      My point was that the people who run the forum section never maintain it and dont seem to put any effort into making it useful, plus there’s so few articles now that it seems unnecessary. Just seems like a waste of energy constantly trying to get the forum section to work.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Adrianacandle,
      Dame of Mercia,

      I am certainly sympathetic towards those who are being affected by lockdowns and have no other suitable outlets (or direct contact with other people). There is also the ongoing unpredictable matter of “Orange Walder” currently turning into “Disgruntled Dany”. People need to vent, or find something diverting to occupy their minds and temporarily take a break from real-world troubles. Completely understandable. This was actually why I hesitated for months before posting anything about this issue.

      All things considered, perhaps the best option would be to reformat this website as I suggested earlier. Handles all the problematic issues and simultaneously keeps everyone happy. Something for WotW’s mods to think about, hopefully.

      As for GRRM’s ongoing delays…This is a classic example of the critical necessity of properly plotting out complex storylines from beginning to end beforehand, especially the most important aspects of the saga. I don’t know exactly what process GRRM’s friend Bernard Cornwell uses, but GRRM should really follow his example. Cornwell’s excellent medieval-based novels have a broadly similar writing style to ASOIAF and follow some of the same major themes — but think about the number of such novels Cornwell has written during the past decade; in fact, he’s just published *yet another* book.

        Quote  Reply

    88. dear all

      i just wrote this to GRRM:

      “dear GRRM
      there are rumors about you rewriting some of the TWOW chapters we already got tiny little pieces of for our enjoyment aka endless torture. this is alright with me. it shows me you really take your job as an author serious.
      still, i have to ask you not to rewrite any of the POV chapters of Eddard Stark. everything you wrote about Ned has been leaked to the markets. my condolences..”

      no, i did not write this. but i hope i could provide some good on-topic comment. if so, allow me to post my musical interlude referring to my post. it’s from some 1992 or so, and it’s Napalm Deaths “You Suffer. But Why?”
      i won’t link it, because when published it held the record for the shortest 7″ ever with some 1.5 seconds of total playing time. also, it’s just relevant if Napalm Death sounds like Napalm Dany for you. (add any emojis you want to see now!)

      and yes, this nice environment of thoughtful and! entertaining contributors has deserved a better home. (on the other hand, respect for handling a blog about a multi-million tv-cult with software from the time when the Dead Sea was still alive…)

        Quote  Reply

    89. death by chickenfire,

      ”if so, allow me to post my musical interlude referring to my post. it’s from some 1992 or so, and it’s Napalm Deaths “You Suffer. But Why?”
      i won’t link it, because when published it held the record for the shortest 7″ ever with some 1.5 seconds of total playing time.”

      Well, I searched for and listened to this record-holding, 1.5 second “song.” I did not quite make a connection to Napalm Dany…

      At first, I thought you were going to refer to the record for the shortest song to ever reach #1 on the Billboard charts. I’ll have to check. I believe that the shortest #1 single was around 1 minute and 35 seconds long, and that this record still stands after sixty some odd years. I think it’s “Stay” by Maurice Williams & The Zodiacs. Lemme look…

        Quote  Reply

    90. talvikorrpi – when you say ‘Har’ is that a book Tormund Har?

      Yes, har!

      Us Nordics never were feudal.

      Never a “lord” over us. Har! Some went and “rape and pillaged” and looted monasteries and smallfolk in overseas places, and settled there as “lords”.

      Verry verry bad, even if they got a bit “civilized”.

      1066 and all that. The English were conquered by the Normans – “frenchified” Vikings.

      Fast forward a few centuries, Normans and English and Scots, who’d been subsumed by their lairds, building the “British Empire”. On the backs of millions of “natives”. Extracting their labour and natural resources unfairly. Because they could. Because guns and better military. Total hypocrycy. No slavery in our country (but we’ll overlook American slavery, even contribute to it).

      Racial purity. The French, the Dutch, the Portuguese in Asia were OK about “intermarriages” and giving citizenship to biracial children. Not the Brits. Quite like the good old German racial purity chaps about this, what ho, dear old chap.

      The “gloroius” British Empire was built on slavery, exploitation, drug running. Like many present day South American states in thrall to drug cartells, so the British state was. Fought two wars to be able to import opium to China, to protect the profits of “free traders”. The British government arrogantly and hypocritically allowed imported huge drug problem, but hey, British companies be earning lotsa money and bringing “civilization” to China/SE Asia.

      Sorry about the rant. It just makes me so angry.

        Quote  Reply

    91. death by chickenfire,

      (cont. from 2:15 pm)

      • For what it’s worth, “Stay” (1960) by Maurice Williams & The Zodiacs at 97 seconds long does in fact hold the record for shortest single ever to reach #1.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RRPGmA_9Eo

      The original song was used in the “Dirty Dancing” soundtrack. There were later versions of the song by the Four Seasons, the Hollies, Jackson Browne, Bruce Springsteen, and others.

      • FYI Here’s Maurice Williams in 2015 in an interview/documentary “Behind the Song: Maurice Williams’s “Stay” celebrates 55 years”[5:59 long]

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_VR1YUwD-k

      at 2:05: Confirms that at 97 seconds long, “Stay” is the shortest song ever to hit #1.

      Also, at 2:56 – 3:09, after Maurice Williams talks about the covers by the Hollies and Jackson Browne, he describes a “fantastic” version of “Stay” by…Cyndi Lauper.

        Quote  Reply

    92. talvikorppi: Yes, har!

      Fast forward a few centuries, Normans and English and Scots, who’d been subsumed by their lairds, building the “British Empire”. On the backs of millions of “natives”. Extracting their labour and natural resources unfairly. Because they could. Because guns and better military. Total hypocrycy. No slavery in our country (but we’ll overlook American slavery, even contribute to it).

      Racial purity. The French, the Dutch, the Portuguese in Asia were OK about “intermarriages” and giving citizenship to biracial children. Not the Brits. Quite like the good old German racial purity chaps about this, what ho, dear old chap.

      The “gloroius” British Empire was built on slavery, exploitation, drug running. Like many present day South American states in thrall to drug cartells, so the British state was. Fought two wars to be able to import opium to China, to protect the profits of “free traders”.The British government arrogantly and hypocritically allowed imported huge drug problem, but hey, British companies be earning lotsa money and bringing “civilization” to China/SE Asia.

      These days the British and their spawn ( USA, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand) show no shame. Their dark history is mostly undiscussed. Instead, we suffer their histrionics about their many many virtues and their insistence that they have a right to rule everyone else. The liberal world order…and so on.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Jai:
      talvikorppi,

      Whether or not you were joking, I agree with most of your points. Throughout this year, comments thread after comments thread has been hijacked, derailed and effectively destroyed by a handful of people treating this website like their own private WhatsApp group; these incidents are frequently triggered by one person in particular obsessively spamming threads. Because of the linear visual format of the threads and the sheer number of (often long) irrelevant comments from such individuals, it can make the threads basically unreadable for everyone else.

      For what it’s worth, I think it would be worthwhile for WotW’s moderators to consider reformatting the website so that it supports multi-thread and sub-thread BTL discussions under the articles, similar to (for example) Reddit or Trekmovie.com. That way, people can go off on their tangents if they insist on continuing to do so, and it will not undermine everyone else’s ability to discuss on-topic subjects or the wider silent readership’s ability to follow and enjoy the main discussions on this website. It would probably attract a larger number of BTL commenters too.

      For what it’s worth I completely agree with this. It’s sad (though understandable) that there is hardly any more interesting discussion about GOT, and instead we have comment sections filled with incredibly long posts with totally unrelated back-and-forth content about musical interludes and stuff I can’t even understand.
      On the other hand, if the few people remaining here enjoy that, so be it.

      I said in another thread, and I say it again: a very interesting topic of discussion is Hibberd’s making off book, which came out more than a month ago, yet there has been hardly any discussion (and no articles) about the topic.

        Quote  Reply

    94. oierem: I said in another thread, and I say it again: a very interesting topic of discussion is Hibberd’s making off book, which came out more than a month ago, yet there has been hardly any discussion (and no articles) about the topic.

      I think it offers a great look behind the scenes and the making of, especially with battles and everything! And I liked learning about the thought processes that go into this! The book tells a great story vis a vis the making-of the series and Hibberd did a great job compiling all of these information pieces. The most interesting part of the book for me, and I think the most major part, was GRRM speaking about the three twists as that was something people had been wondering about for so long (especially what that third twist was).

      As to why people might not be picking up the discussion thread and while I felt it was a good read with some really interesting tidbits, I don’t think it offered a ton of new content about new story, particularly if one has been following along with interviews, BtS, and such (some of the snippets are from older EW interviews). So perhaps, in my ponderings, that’s why? Even there, so many of the topics have been discussed on this board quite a bit, particularly in regard to the final seasons and what may happen in the books, etc. that perhaps I wonder if there is some fatigue in lieu of new content and story. I know there are debates I avoid getting into because I’ll just be rehashing what I said before (although, there are some I’ll likely weigh in on but others I avoid). Again, I thought it was a good read with some really interesting stories and tidbits but of course, Hibberd isn’t going to exactly release GRRM’s TWOW plans and reveal all his secrets… which would be a game changer if he had them 😉

      To WotW’s credit, they have done several articles on pieces in Hibberd’s book (ones he released for public viewing).

      Anyway, that’s why my view on the reason why and why I haven’t picked up the discussion myself.

      But to quote Dame of Mercia above, “I’m not the thought police, however, and if you are not happy with how some of us post you are of course allowed an opinion.”

      For me, I thought things like the musical interludes or collaborating on creative projects injected some new fun into discussion and allowed us to get to know one another as we’ve been part of this community for a few years. And I quite liked discussing HDM with Tron because he can bring in some interesting GoT/ASOIAF connections that I haven’t thought of before, reframing some concepts that I hadn’t previously considered 🙂

      Jai: As for GRRM’s ongoing delays…This is a classic example of the critical necessity of properly plotting out complex storylines from beginning to end beforehand, especially the most important aspects of the saga. I don’t know exactly what process GRRM’s friend Bernard Cornwell uses, but GRRM should really follow his example. Cornwell’s excellent medieval-based novels have a broadly similar writing style to ASOIAF and follow some of the same major themes — but think about the number of such novels Cornwell has written during the past decade; in fact, he’s just published *yet another* book.

      Yep. I think this is a consequence of GRRM not planning out his story in greater detail and sort of just winging it with stuff. And now…. I suspect he’s stuck. And we’ll be getting these… updates (“I swear, I’m working on it! I just had to do this, that, and the other thing first, but now I’m back at it! Oh, crap, rewrites.” I work in the same way and this is how I don’t get stuff done when I get frustrated. I hope that’s not the case for GRRM).

        Quote  Reply

    95. oierem,

      Well, one poster has requested that the Hibberd book not be ‘spoiled’ for him as he is planning on reading it. (I think the poster was a ‘he’). There was discussion of how the Hibberd book treated the Lady Stoneheart exclusion and GRRM’s least favourite scene.

      talvicorppi, I’ve seen documentaries where the British have been open about their imperial past. I’m not saying that racism doesn’t exist. I think the Suez Crisis was an incident if not THE incident that brought it home that Britain wasn’t a world power any more.

      Anybody is free to make a comment that he/she considers to be on point about the titles of various articles including the one at the top of this thread. After 11 years of waiting I personally find it hard to come up with anything fresh to say regarding GRRM not having completed TWOW, which is the nucleus of the subject of this thread. There are only about 19 comments under the feature about Paddy Considine being cast as Viserys in HoD. That was an article which did contain something new but not many people responded to the thread. There’s a saying “There’s nowt so strange as folk” (or “so queer as folk” sometimes) and nobody can predict what will spark a response from people who happen upon a thread.

      There have been so many discussions along the lines of Doozy and Dirtbag – BAD: Great (W)Riter of Rambling Magnitude – GOOD (and vice versa) that for myself I can’t see that there’s anything novel to be injected into such debates though again I don’t speak for anyone but myself.

        Quote  Reply

    96. If anyone has any sensible suggestions for subjects which might be pertinent to GoT the show, the ASOIAF books or the forthcoming HoD series that might spark a lively response from people visiting the board perhaps they could contact the people who run the site and ask if one of the writers could write features about such matters.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Typo!

      *Anyway, that’s my view on the reason why and why I haven’t picked up the discussion myself.

      (One too many why’s)

      Dame of Mercia: I don’t speak for anyone but myself.

      Ah, that is a disclaimer I needed to add to my own comment but neglected 😅😅😅

      I’m hoping as more information about HotD emerges, we can get some fresh new discussion. Although, I wonder if that will really start to happen once the show gets rolling to get invested in a new story but god only knows now when that will be…

        Quote  Reply

    98. oierem,

      ”I said in another thread, and I say it again: a very interesting topic of discussion is Hibberd’s making off book, which came out more than a month ago, yet there has been hardly any discussion (and no articles) about the topic.”

      I too was interested in discussions about Hibbard’s book. However, another commenter – who’d purchased the book but had not read it yet – did not want it spoiled. Out of deference to his wishes, I’ve refrained from discussion about the book (other than excerpts that have been publicly reported).

        Quote  Reply

    99. oierem: Jai:
      talvikorppi,

      Whether or not you were joking, I agree with most of your points. Throughout this year, comments thread after comments thread has been hijacked, derailed and effectively destroyed by a handful of people treating this website like their own private WhatsApp group; these incidents are frequently triggered by one person in particular obsessively spamming threads. Because of the linear visual format of the threads and the sheer number of (often long) irrelevant comments from such individuals, it can make the threads basically unreadable for everyone else.

      For what it’s worth, I think it would be worthwhile for WotW’s moderators to consider reformatting the website so that it supports multi-thread and sub-thread BTL discussions under the articles, similar to (for example) Reddit or Trekmovie.com. That way, people can go off on their tangents if they insist on continuing to do so, and it will not undermine everyone else’s ability to discuss on-topic subjects or the wider silent readership’s ability to follow and enjoy the main discussions on this website. It would probably attract a larger number of BTL commenters too.

      For what it’s worth I completely agree with this. It’s sad (though understandable) that there is hardly any more interesting discussion about GOT, and instead we have comment sections filled with incredibly long posts with totally unrelated back-and-forth content about musical interludes and stuff I can’t even understand.
      On the other hand, if the few people remaining here enjoy that, so be it.

      I said in another thread, and I say it again: a very interesting topic of discussion is Hibberd’s making off book, which came out more than a month ago, yet there has been hardly any discussion (and no articles) about the topic.

      I couldn’t agree more.

      I expressed similar disappointment when there was an article about the casting of Paddy Considine in House Of The Dragon. I expected to find some lively discussion and speculation with suggestions for other possible roles. But no, it was the same old same old, and nobody seemed to be interested in the ‘new’ news.

      If people won’t discuss new topics like HotD or the Hibberd book then there’s no point posting BTL. People who have something relevant to say just don’t come here any more.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Grandmaester Flash: I expressed similar disappointment when there was an article about the casting of Paddy Considine in House Of The Dragon. I expected to find some lively discussion and speculation with suggestions for other possible roles. But no, it was the same old same old, and nobody seemed to be interested in the ‘new’ news.

      I recall taking part in some of these casting debates and about what House of the Dragon will cover in regard to story — but there’s also only so far one can go with casting news and we haven’t received much on HotD due to covid.

      People are free to discuss these things and others may or may participate. I think it’s a strange, uncertain time with not a ton going on with new production due to covid, the show having ended over a year and a half ago, and very little info about TWOW in nine years.

      Now, my saying that doesn’t bar anyone else from these topics, of course. I can only speak for myself. I’m just speculating as to why there’s kind of a stand-still in discussion in these areas.

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    101. Dame of Mercia,

      ”…After 11 years of waiting I personally find it hard to come up with anything fresh to say regarding GRRM not having completed TWOW, which is the nucleus of the subject of this thread.”

      Along those lines, I thought I’d capture the exasperation of fans who direct comments to GRRM like: “It’s your life, and you can do what you want. Do what you like, but please don’t keep me waiting, because I’m so tired of waiting.”

      And that is why I posted a Musical Interlude with those lyrics (the Kinks).

      I do make an effort to tie in the songs’ lyrics to the topic of each post or the particular character chronicled. (I wonder if those who are displeased with musical interlude comments have actually listened to the songs. I try to avoid middling tunes.)

      And I have also enjoyed listening to the performers and songs other commenters have recommended, especially those I’d never heard of before, like Rammstein, Tool, Bishop Briggs, Cocoon/Lola Marsh, etc.

      I listen to everything: After all, GoT taught me not to be a genre snob.

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    102. *others may or may *not participate

      Ten Bears: I do make an effort to tie in the songs’ lyrics to the topic of each post or the particular character chronicled. (I wonder if those who are displeased with musical interlude comments have actually listened to the songs. I try to avoid middling tunes.)

      And I have also enjoyed listening to the performers and songs other commenters have recommended, especially those I’d never heard of before, like Rammstein, Tool, Bishop Briggs, Cocoon/Lola Marsh, etc.

      For my part, Ten Bears, I’ve enjoyed them and I think they add some fun and sometimes, a new angle. I appreciate the effort you put into them.

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    103. Adrianacandle,

      I recall taking part in some of these casting debates and about what House of the Dragon will cover in regard to story — but there’s also only so far one can go with casting news and we haven’t received much on HotD due to covid.”

      I also made an effort to engage in fancasting for House of the Dragon. However, the paucity of descriptive source material (characters’ physical appearances, personalities, storylines, dialogue, etc.) made it difficult to imagine particular actresses and actors. Combined with the mere handful of confirmed characters appearing in the prequel, that makes it hard to stir up lively discussion.

      (Now, if only they hadn’t pulled the plug on Blood Moon we could’ve been extolling the amazing Naomi Watts…)

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    104. Ten Bears: I also made an effort to engage in fancasting for House of the Dragon. However, the paucity of descriptive source material (characters’ physical appearances, personalities, storylines, dialogue, etc.) made it difficult to imagine particular actresses and actors. Combined with the mere handful of confirmed characters appearing in the prequel, that makes it hard to stir up lively discussion.

      (Now, if only they hadn’t pulled the plug on Blood Moon we could’ve been extolling the amazing Naomi Watts…)

      Yeah, I remember those debates!

      And yes, I think the information we have on HotD and the ASOIAF history it will be covering is fairly limited (as well as the source material itself — it’s not a full-blown story like ASOIAF was, which had come with a built-in audience who had been with the series since 1996 onward). This what I think makes it hard to discuss, imagine, and invest in because it’s still in its very early stages — but I am always pleased to see a new topic about House of the Dragon and any news about it because I’m totally ready to invest in a new story from Planeteos 🙂

      I agree about Blood Moon — especially if we could have gotten it before covid struck :/

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    105. Adrianacandle,

      ”I agree about Blood Moon — especially if we could have gotten it before covid struck :/“

      I can’t help but ask myself:

      (1) How bad could the pilot have been? Naomi F*cking Watts was in it! She made a giant CGI ape seem real in “King Kong”!

      (2) The Game of Thrones showrunners got a chance for a do-over when their original pilot bombed. Why didn’t Jane Goldman and the other “Blood Moon” showrunners get that same opportunity?

      (3) How did House of the Dragon get greenlit for an entire season – sight unseen – at the same time Blood Moon got euthanized?

      I HOPE going with HotD wasn’t motivated by Hollywood bean counters deciding: “Yes! More and bigger CGI dragons for the masses! Ka-ching! 💰💵”

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    106. Going back I seem to remember Petra introduced a thread about perhaps casting Helaena Targaryen. I haven’t read ‘Fire and Blood’ – I may be being a little petulant because TWOW hasn’t ‘dropped’ yet. I think we did have a little discussion about fan-casting who might play the Princess and the Queen. I can’t remember their descriptions offhand though they were treated tangentially in the source material as having taken place in the original ‘dance of dragons’ (if my seventy-something memory is working properly today). Somebody mentioned a Scandinavian actress surnamed something like Lochness – I remember because I thought it might be a wind-up but there is in truth a lady thus named.

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    107. Hey, Mr. Martin!

      It’s highly unlikely that you’ll ever read this, but I’ll write it anyway. I have a query for you.

      Do you ever want to finish ASOIAF one day? If the answer is “no,” then keep on doing what you’re doing. No problem, no worries.
      If the answer is “yes,” then you might want to consider the following course of action, drastic though it may be:

      Take Feast, Dance, and presumably whatever you’ve done with Winds up to this point… and discard it. Declare them non-canon and throw them away. Then, spend the next year or two writing the REAL follow-up to Storm (one book this time), then another two years for Winds, then another two years for Dream. Two years per book, just like how you did it for the first three books before the story went off the rails and landed in a quagmire. Books 4 & 5 shouldn’t be too difficult in this regard, since you’ve basically written them already! Just cut out all the fluff, the filler, the meandering, the rambling, the dozen new characters that hardly anyone cares about, and all the other stuff that currently has the story hopelessly adrift in the doldrums at sea. You’ve told us many times that you’re a gardener-type writer, but now it may behove you to take a few pages from an architect’s handbook. Good luck!

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    108. Farimer123,

      ”Just cut out all the fluff, the filler, the meandering, the rambling, the dozen new characters that hardly anyone cares about, and all the other stuff that currently has the story hopelessly adrift in the doldrums at sea.”

      Or perhaps:
      •As one commenter here described the showrunners’ decision, apply “the Dorne Solution” and simply pull the plug on detours that may have looked good on paper but are turning out to be unnecessary, underwhelming, or meandering.
      • Get rid of “the new characters that hardly anyone cares about” by using the Cersei Septapalooza Contraction Remedy: round ‘em all up in one place and blow them up.

      Side note/question from a show-only fan: Am I correct that the consensus among book readers is that the showrunners’ exclusion of fAegon/Young Griff from the show meant that this character will not play an indispensable part in the books! endgame?

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    109. Ten Bears,

      I don’t think it’s a consensus, TB. Although FAegon (Young Griff) was only introduced late in ASOIAF in the book version of the House of The Undying Dany was told to ‘beware the Mummer’s Dragon’. If Young Griff is the Mummer’s Dragon GRRM must have had the idea for the character fairly early on in the writing process. That said I found the voyage down the Rhoyne tedious in ADWD though there have been people who liked it so I’m not the omnipotent arbiter of taste. For myself, your guess is as good as mine as to whether YG will play an important part in the book resolution of the story.

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    110. Dame of Mercia,

      …in the book version of the House of The Undying Dany was told to ‘beware the Mummer’s Dragon’.”

      Can I ask another couple of question? I forget if the following prophecies in the books made it into the show; I don’t remember who made them (Quaithe? The witch doctor lady who tricked Dany and then got roasted? Someone else?); and I may have the wording all wrong…

      • Wasn’t Dany told something like to go west she’d have to go east? Whatever happened with that? Did she fulfill that prediction or take that advice on the show? In the books? Or did the show abandon that?

      • Didn’t someone tell Dany her womb wouldn’t quicken (or Drogo wouldn’t return to her) until the sun rises in the west and the mountains blow?
      The show (in S7e7 dragonpit chat with Jon) hinted that maybe Dany wasn’t infertile after all. But that went nowhere. [Gun hung; never fired.]
      Now I’m 100% anti-baby drama (and Tyrion’s “your baby, your baby, your baby” speeches to Cersei made me cringe).
      But did anything happen in the books that might suggest the womb quickening prediction would be fulfilled?
      And what about the sun rising in the west or mountains blowing?
      I for one refuse to believe GRRM would insert these peculiarly worded riddles as red herrings.

      Yes, I’m aware prophecies can be misleading (as Tyrion described them colorfully). However, if the author is clever they invariably come true even if in unexpected ways, or after they’ve been misinterpreted. (As in MacBeth.)
      The show seemingly jettisoned many of the book! prophecies or watered them down (e.g., Mel equivocating about the Prince or Princess that was Promised in S7e2 or e3; and Mel’s “Warrior of Light”/Azor Ahai recital in S2e1).
      Has GRRM foreshadowed their fulfillment? After all the book readers’ analysis and speculation, it would be a cheap shot if GRRM just abandoned them.

      (P.S. And I doubt GRRM ever intended to leave the PTWP or Azor Ahai prophecies so open-ended that the showrunners could slot in Arya Stark as the promised Princess who could bring the dawn.)

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    111. Grandmaester Flash,

      ”I expressed similar disappointment when there was an article about the casting of Paddy Considine in House Of The Dragon. I expected to find some lively discussion and speculation with suggestions for other possible roles…”

      Well then, let me ask your opinion:

      I for one was excited about “Blood Moon” primarily because they had cast Naomi Watts, an A-List actress. That was a major coup. It didn’t hurt that GoT had cast recognizable talents such as Lena Headey, Sean Bean, and Peter Dinklage in lead roles.

      Do you think that HotD will, or ought to sign up a big name actress or actor for a leading role? Especially after all this time I’m not so sure the GoT “brand” by itself is enough to lure in fans.

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    112. Ten Bears,

      Wasn’t Dany told something like to go west she’d have to go east? Whatever happened with that? Did she fulfill that prediction or take that advice on the show? In the books? Or did the show abandon that?

      It was Quaithe, yes, who made these prophecies and because it’s still yet unknown what this means or how this will play out, I don’t think we know the answer to this. I’m going to tentatively say it probably was abandoned in the show, like many prophecies were. That and the show didn’t include this prophecy. The full wording is, “To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

      Didn’t someone tell Dany her womb wouldn’t quicken (or Drogo wouldn’t return to her) until the sun rises in the west and the mountains blow?

      Yeah, that was MMD. I think Dany’s fertility or if she can have a child is still unknown too and has been the subject of debate. At the end of ADWD, she seems to have a very heavy period for the first time in a very long time or a miscarriage. But it’s unknown.

      MMD’s words are meant to mean an impossibility though, I think.

      Has GRRM foreshadowed their fulfillment? After all the book readers’ analysis and speculation, it would be a cheap shot if GRRM just abandoned them.

      Yeah, but I think something here is that we don’t know exactly what these mean or perhaps they don’t mean what readers think they mean. Or perhaps some readers do but it’s been written off as “too obvious” (ie. Jaime as valonqar) because readers have had eons to read, dissect, and figure this stuff out, expecting more of a twist as the initial possible answers to riddles become “too expected” if they’ve been long figured out. And the longer readers have to analyse, the more convoluted and twisted theories become, and the more “obvious” answers may become disappointing — when these answers would have been acceptable twists if a reader didn’t have 25 years to figure it out.

      (1) How bad could the pilot have been? Naomi F*cking Watts was in it! She made a giant CGI ape seem real in “King Kong”!

      (2) The Game of Thrones showrunners got a chance for a do-over when their original pilot bombed. Why didn’t Jane Goldman and the other “Blood Moon” showrunners get that same opportunity?

      (3) How did House of the Dragon get greenlit for an entire season – sight unseen – at the same time Blood Moon got euthanized?

      I don’t think we’ll ever really know the answer to these questions. So many pilots are cut which never see the light of day, that viewers are never aware of, for a variety of reasons. Maybe something with Blood Moon just wasn’t working for one (or more) of the people in charge of green lighting a show. Maybe there was a do-over and it was rejected. It’s hard to say without having any information :/

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    113. Side note/question from a show-only fan: Am I correct that the consensus among book readers is that the showrunners’ exclusion of fAegon/Young Griff from the show meant that this character will not play an indispensable part in the books! endgame?

      I don’t think there is a consensus, but Young Griff will definitely not play an indispensable part in the book’s endgame.
      For starters, Young Griff isn’t even a PVO character (=protagonist) in the books.
      But more importantly, there are only a handfull of people who ultimately matter in the endgame and we know who they are: the characters who were there from the beginning (as it should be, in any well written story). ASOAF is about the Starks. About Arya, Bran, Sansa. About Jon Snow. And about Tyrion (as the traitor Lannister). And about Dany (as the threat of Fire). Those are the characters Martin clearly outlined as the protagonists of the story.
      All the other characters are secondary/tertiary characters who support the journey of the protagonists. They are there to be misleading, but they are never going to be the key to the endgame.

      So no, Young Griff, Lady Stoneheart, Stannis, Loras’s brother… aren’t key characters to the endgame, for sure.

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    114. oierem: All the other characters are secondary/tertiary characters who support the journey of the protagonists. They are there to be misleading, but they are never going to be the key to the endgame.

      I wouldn’t say that, especially since we don’t know exactly how things will play out in the books.

      Secondary characters may be very important to the narrative and how the narrative plays out (for instance, the burning of Shireen is one of GRRM’s major plot twists. Shireen isn’t a POV and is a pretty minor character but her death, and Stannis’s decision here, seems to to have a big impact on the narrative). The narrative may not come down to these characters’ decisions in the end-game itself but I’d say they may definitely play an important role leading-up to it in some way. I don’t think that needs to be limited to them being red herrings.

      But I would agree that there is no consensus on Young Griff’s part in the end-game, if he has a role in the end-game, particularly since we don’t know exactly what that role will be. I imagine he’d be important to the lead up of events building to the culmination though but that’s only speculation.

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    115. Adrianacandle,

      Adrianacandle: I wouldn’t say that, especially since we don’t know exactly how things will play out in the books.

      Secondary characters may be very important to the narrative and how the narrative plays out (for instance, the burning of Shireen is one of GRRM’s major plot twists. Shireen isn’t a POV and is a pretty minor character but her death, and Stannis’s decision here, seems to to have a big impact on the narrative). The narrative may not come down to these characters’ decisions in the end-game itself but I’d say they may definitely play an important role leading-up to it in some way. I don’t think that needs to be limited to them being red herrings.

      But I would agree that there is no consensus on Young Griff’s part in the end-game, if he has a role in the end-game, particularly since we don’t know exactly what that role will be. I imagine he’d be important to the lead up of events building to the culmination though but that’s only speculation.

      The thing about secondary characters is that even if their actions are relevant, you can replace them with other characters / find other ways to advance the narrative, and the story is still the same. Barristan is a good example of that.

      Stannis burning Shireen is one of the WTF moments Martin told D&D, but is not (by far) one of the key moments of the story. Stannis isn’t even a main character. In other words, you could literally cut out Stannis from the show, and still have the same core story.
      No matter how the book version plays out, Stannis 1) wasn’t part of the set-up of the story, 2) isn’t a protagonist 3)is going to die long before the endgame.

      I’m not saying secondary and tertiary characters aren’t important to the narrative. I’m just saying you can either use them or lose them in an adaptation, since they are not, by definition, key characters of the story. Stannis was kept. Young Griff was not. But neither of them was/will be a key player in the endgame.

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    116. oierem: The thing about secondary characters is that even if their actions are relevant, you can replace them with other characters / find other ways to advance the narrative, and the story is still the same. Barristan is a good example of that.

      Stannis burning Shireen is one of the WTF moments Martin told D&D, but is not (by far) one of the key moments of the story. Stannis isn’t even a main character. In other words, you could literally cut out Stannis from the show, and still have the same core story.
      No matter how the book version plays out, Stannis 1) wasn’t part of the set-up of the story, 2) isn’t a protagonist 3)is going to die long before the endgame.

      I’m not saying secondary and tertiary characters aren’t important to the narrative. I’m just saying you can either use them or lose them in an adaptation, since they are not, by definition, key characters of the story. Stannis was kept. Young Griff was not. But neither of them was/will be a key player in the endgame.

      Well, I just don’t think the secondary characters are interchangeable or disposable so much as all that though, or that they’re not part of the set-up because their actions do impact the narrative and how it goes forward — and this interacts with how they’re characterized. However, yes, D&D have made the decision to cut these characters or change them/their storyline — but I think that may influence the story in some significant ways. We just don’t know how yet because we haven’t seen those unpublished books.

      GRRM has taken the time to characterize these characters pretty specifically. As a result, I don’t think they’re simply blank characters that populate a POV’s chapter or only serve as somebody for the POV to talk to and vocalize their thoughts. They’re defined characters who make decisions based on their characteristics. Stannis wouldn’t make the same decisions as Renly, Margaery wouldn’t make the same decisions as Gilly, Val wouldn’t make the same decisions as Jeyne Poole, etc.

      I don’t think we can definitively say these characters are not part of the set-up of the story since we’re not GRRM, don’t have access to his plans, thinking, why he put in these characters, and or know how he intends to go forward. D&D will have a lot more information on that than we do because they’ve actually gone through GRRM’s plans for the remaining books but we aren’t privy to this information.

      Additionally, GRRM has commented multiple times about the “butterfly effect” resulting from changes to/elimination of these details and secondary characters and how this can result in a big impact (“Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons”):

      There will be divergences, they’re trying to be faithful and Dan and David are doing a wonderful job. But the books are plotted so intricately that you do step on a butterfly in season one and in season four you’re going to have to deal with that.

      EW, July 2011

      There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one. And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes. HBO is more than forty hours into the impossible and demanding task of adapting my lengthy (extremely) and complex (exceedingly) novels, with their layers of plots and subplots, their twists and contradictions and unreliable narrators, viewpoint shifts and ambiguities, and a cast of characters in the hundreds.

      […]

      And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose… but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place.

      In the meantime, we hope that the readers and viewers both enjoy the journey. Or journeys, as the case may be. Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons.

      Not A Blog, May 2019

      I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget. They had six hours for this final season. I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them. And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one. There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet.

      Not A Blog, May 2018

      GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: (author, co-executive producer) It wasn’t easy for me. I didn’t want to give away my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and “hold the door”, and Stannis’ decision to burn his daughter. We didn’t get to everybody by any means. Especially the minor characters, who may have very different endings.

      Fire Cannot Kill A Dragon, October 2020

      The decision was made four/five years ago to eliminate characters like Lady Stoneheart, Quentyn Martell, the Young Griff arc. When you eliminate all those subplots, you simplify things and bring it to an end where it is. Who knows? Maybe that was the right decision.

      JOE, August 2019

      So it seems like these changes may have a major impact and it’s in the realm of the secondary and more minor characters. Considering how, as you know, GRRM fought against D&D eliminating Lady Stoneheart, it seems he does have some significant plans for her.

      We also aren’t privy to meetings between himself and D&D and don’t know why D&D decided to kill Stannis off early, eliminate Young Griff, etc. It was probably, as GRRM says, to simplify plots. But he also says that this can and has resulted in pretty big changes.

      Depending on what impact Stannis burning Shireen has, I think that would have a significant impact on the story, particularly if it impacts the war against the Boltons/the landscape of the North/plays a part in bringing Jon back/etc.

      But these are things we don’t know yet.

      I think the bare bones of the story will be the same, as well as most significant plot details, but I also think how we get to some of these plot points will be different, will have some major impacts on the story and how it unfolds, and I think some of that is down to the more secondary characters and how they impact the major characters. I think they’re more than just interchangeable chess pieces.

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    117. Ten Bears,

      Well, I searched for and listened to this record-holding, 1.5 second “song.” I did not quite make a connection to Napalm Dany…

      neither did i. that’s why i did not link it. ultra hardcore has never been my thing. still, Napalm Death needed a “song” shorter than the noise of a guitar plugged to the amp to deliver total annihilation and “never again!” to their targets ( =listeners).
      Napalm Dany on the other hand needed all the rock-operas The Who never wrote for the same result. screw you Dany, hardcore mounted the world, and the world did not like it.

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    118. Ten Bears:
      Grandmaester Flash,

      ”I expressed similar disappointment when there was an article about the casting of Paddy Considine in House Of The Dragon. I expected to find some lively discussion and speculation with suggestions for other possible roles…”

      Well then, let me ask your opinion:

      I for one was excited about “Blood Moon” primarily because they had cast Naomi Watts, an A-List actress. That was a major coup. It didn’t hurt that GoT had cast recognizable talents such as Lena Headey, Sean Bean, and Peter Dinklage in lead roles.

      Do you think that HotD will, or ought to sign up a big name actress or actor for a leading role? Especially after all this time I’m not so sure the GoT “brand” by itself is enough to lure in fans.

      I don’t really know what you would consider to be a “big name”. I don’t know Naomi Watts, I’ve never seen anything she’s been in, so she isn’t a big name in my world. There are some actors who are indisputably “big names”, but they aren’t universally beloved.

      I would rather see quality actors like we saw in GoT, the kind who can disappear into a role, than perennial headliners like Hanks, Di Caprio, Kidman and their ilk.

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    119. Ten Bears: I wouldn’t want stunt-casting either.

      Not even Maisie Williams as Visenya Targaryen? 🙂

      In all seriousness, I would prefer less well-known actors as well, but it depends on the actor.

      Some big-named actors have a better ability to “disappear into a role” than others. Sean Bean would be a good example. He’s played a lot of characters, but I never associated him with just one. That’s why, to me, he worked well as Ned.

      On the other end of the spectrum, I would hate to see the casting be nothing more than a bunch of sexy teenagers just for the sake of everything being unrealistically sexy, unless the show is going to turn into a CW version of itself. That would be a crime against humanity.

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    120. Adrianacandle,

      You make some really good points. But I see a contradiction when you say the secondary characters aren’t interchangable/disposable, yet you admit in the same sentence that D&D have eliminated/combined some of those (therefore, they WERE interchangable). Yes, that may have cause some differences in the narrative, but ultimately they get to the same destination.

      Anyway, I’m not denying the importance of secondary characters or moments like Stannis burning Shireen. But I was responding to whether Young Griff would have a role in the ENDGAME. And I state to my answer: no, secondary characters have no relevant role in the endgame. Stannis’ journey may be different, but he will die before the climax. Same as Ramsay, Margaery, and all the rest. The climax will be about the Starks, about Dany, and possibly about the Lannisters (or at least Tyrion).
      (and if it’s not, the narrative would be so unconventional that it could be considered a poorly written story…. then again, we know from the ending of GOT that it won’t be the case: the climax will be focused on the main characters)

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    121. oierem,

      You make some really good points. But I see a contradiction when you say the secondary characters aren’t interchangable/disposable, yet you admit in the same sentence that D&D have eliminated/combined some of those (therefore, they WERE interchangable). Yes, that may have cause some differences in the narrative, but ultimately they get to the same destination.

      Well, thanks for that and for considering my points 🙂 But while I said D&D made the decision to cut some characters, I’m not sure how that’s a contradiction to what I’m saying wherein I disagree that secondary characters are interchangeable and disposable?

      That D&D cut these characters is an indisputable fact, it really can’t be denied in any way — but I don’t think that in and of itself means these secondary characters are disposable/interchangeable. I think it means (as GRRM has said) it’ll result in changes to the story, perhaps pretty significant in some ways. As a result, that’s why I don’t think these secondary characters can be switched around or eliminated to no consequence. What they do matters in the story and depends on their characterization. And I also think how we get to the destination is what matters the most in a story since it is the bulk of the story and develops the characterization in all characters (main, secondary, tertiary, etc.).

      Even with Sansa’s story, it’s been changed pretty heavily because D&D gave Sansa the story Jeyne Poole had in the books. D&D have stated this about their decision in regard to Sansa:

      “Sansa is a character we care about almost more than any other, and the Stark sisters have from the very beginning been two characters who have fascinated us the most,” said showrunner David Benioff. “We got very lucky in casting because it’s so hard to cast good kids. Even if they come in and do a great audition, it’s so hard to know if they’re going to quite literally grow into the parts. With Sansa and Arya in particular, their storylines have become quite dark. It was such a gamble and the fact that they’ve both become such great wonderful actresses is a bit of a miracle.”

      And it’s because of Turner’s strength, Benioff continued, that it made sense to give Sansa a dramatic storyline this season and to use Ramsay’s engagement for that very purpose. In fact, the showrunners first thought about putting Sansa and Ramsay together back when they were writing season 2. “We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season,” Benioff said. “If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was as subplot we loved from the books, but it used a character that’s not in the show.”

      While GRRM has said this (spoiler-coded for commenter Jon Snowed in case he comes across this post 🙂 ):

      My Littlefinger would never have turned Sansa over to Ramsay. He’s obsessed with her. Half the time he thinks she’s the daughter he never had–that he wishes he had, if he’d married Catelyn. And half the time he thinks she is Catelyn, and he wants her for himself. He’s not going to give her to somebody who would do bad things to her. That’s going to be very different in the books.

      Here, the combining of Jeyne Poole with Sansa has led to some major changes to her arc.

      But I was responding to whether Young Griff would have a role in the ENDGAME. And I state to my answer: no, secondary characters have no relevant role in the endgame. Stannis’ journey may be different, but he will die before the climax. Same as Ramsay, Margaery, and all the rest. The climax will be about the Starks, about Dany, and possibly about the Lannisters (or at least Tyrion).
      (and if it’s not, the narrative would be so unconventional that it could be considered a poorly written story…. then again, we know from the ending of GOT that it won’t be the case: the climax will be focused on the main characters)

      Oh, it’s my expectation Stannis and Ramsay won’t survive to the end of the story. Not sure about Margaery or Young Griff since GRRM has stated the endings of secondary characters will be different while Young Griff was a character cut from the show. I think it’s possible Margaery will survive but I’m less optimistic about Young Griff. I think it’s him who will be seen as the preferred ruler who manages to rally the support of Westeros, I think he will have a pretty big role in the final wars for the throne, and I also wonder if he has a role in Cersei’s book death, however that comes about. But that’s me wondering and speculating about unknown story elements.

      (Part 1/2 — I’m so sorry for length! I previewed this message and thought, ‘Yikes, the length is going to send this into moderation,’ but I’m sorry for my verbosity 🙁 )

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    122. oierem,

      As to secondary characters having no relevant role in the endgame, I think I have to disagree. I mean, one can talk about the Big 5 or whatever and I’d say the culmination may very well come down to the key actions/decisions of a few major characters — but I don’t think that means secondary characters have no relevant roles or impact. Perhaps characters like Sam, Brienne, and Davos will.

      Even if we have the same ending for each character, I don’t think that means some of these secondary characters won’t impact the journey to how we get there or have a relevant role to play in the endgame. The climax may very well be centered around Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, perhaps Sansa (depending on how and where her story goes), but I don’t think that means only their decisions matter while the decisions of secondary characters will have no relevancy.

      For example: Jon’s ADWD book arc vs. Jon’s season 5 arc. Same bare bones, centered on Jon and his decisions, but pretty different stories.

      In ADWD, Jon ended up meddling in the affairs of the realm in his urge to set the world to rights and almost all of his decisions were either driven by or influenced by secondary characters, leading up to his assassination.

      If there were no Stannis Jon felt compelled to help (giving Bowen Marsh and the Night’s Watch officers cause to fear the wrath of the Iron Throne, which Jon does invite as Cersei tries to take him out — and Jon does incur Ramsay Bolton’s wrath, who ends up threatening the Watch due to Jon’s actions), if there were no Alys begging Jon to protect her (wherein Jon imprisons two Bolton supporters to prevent them from taking Alys and using her against her will, also meddling in the affairs of the realm), if there were no Ramsay marrying “Arya” (wherein Jon sends Mance to rescue her and this being a primary catalyst for Ramsay’s retaliation), if there was no Ramsay sending him the Pink Letter (wherein Jon, as Lord Commander, publicly declares war against a Westerosi lord), Jon would have no temptation, no conflict over whether or not to give into his urge to “set the world to rights” or stay true to the neutrality of the Night’s Watch. The mutineers wouldn’t be assassinating Jon.

      Because in ADWD, while the mutineers are bigots, it’s not Jon letting in the wildlings which sets them off. It’s the culmination of so many decisions Jon makes, some of which put the Watch and war against the Others at risk for things Jon believes are important but are not in his legal capacity as Lord Commander to do. And the mutineers have justifiable cause to act against Jon.

      However, in season 5, it’s only about the wildlings. And saving the wildlings — which falls within the Night’s Watch original purpose to defend the realms of men, all men. Jon wasn’t breaking his neutrality, Jon wasn’t meddling in order to “set the world to rights”, Jon wasn’t facing a conflict between his moral urges and his duty to the protect the realm (one of which put the other and the whole of humanity at risk). And this was character development in ADWD’s Jon that was driven and impacted significantly by secondary characters. It illustrated the consequences of not heeding Jeor Mormont’s warning, “Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night’s Watch has other wars to fight.”

      But at the same time, considering who Jon is at this point in the story, can he (to quote Adam Feldman) “‘take no part’ if it means a monster will win a war against a righteous man? If it means his sister will be raped for the rest of her life by the devil incarnate? If it means some other young girl will be forcibly married and raped by her uncle? And what if “taking part” in any of these means placing the Watch and its larger struggle at great risk? And Jon’s decisions here are pretty revealing and will probably impact how he goes forward with secondary characters having pretty relevant roles in this.

      However, in the show, the mutineers killed Jon because of their own prejudices and feeling the wildlings should be left to die.

      I suppose this is a very long-winded response over why I think the journey and these details are so important. The same significant plot points may very well be the same (Jon recognizes the true purpose of the Watch and tries to save the wildlings in both arcs. Jon is assassinated as a result of his decisions in both arcs) but I think how they come about and the details are pretty important to the character development and how these conclusions are reached.

      (Part 2/2)

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    123. Adrianacandle,

      I think we both agree overall. The difference being that you place more importance in the role of the secondary characters/how they influence the main characters on their journey to the destination. Perhaps I’m understating their importance, but I do think it’s important to see clearly who the main characters are and what the main story beats are, in order to understand how it’s going to play out (and also, I wish Martin could see that more clearly – his insistence that Loras’s older brothers, Khal whatever-his-name-is, Lady Stoneheart and many other minor characters are important is what has lead him to this situation of not being able to finish the books).

      When I say secondary characters are disposable that’s just because…. they are! D&D omitted some of them, proving my point. And they could’ve omitted more if they had to. Sure, those omissions do change the narrative, but not the main story or the fate of the main characters. (the example you give about Jon’s S5/ADWD storylines is a good point… the narrative has important differences, but the story doesn’t and the result is ultimately the same).

      Good discussion! I much prefer this kind of posts instead of musical interludes and talk about unrelated content 🙂

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    124. Adrianacandle,

      I forgot to address your point about Young Griff/Cersei. I’ve read that theory (that Cersei will die much earlier and Young Griff will take her role in a way) many times, but I find it hard to believe, just based on how fucking irrelevant Young Griff is both as a character (again, no POV=no protagonist) and in the narrative (introduced in book 5!). Not to mention it’s yet another instance of the dumb “he-was-dead-but-oh-he-is-alive” trick that Martin seems to like so much.
      But on the other hand, it’s true that Cersei has a less prominent role in the books, and doesn’t become a POV character until book 4…
      But on the other hand, the Lannisters are clearly one of the key families of the story (it started off with Stars vs. Lannisters), and Jaime’s journey is tied to Cersei’s…
      Ultimately, I think my conclussion is that Cersei and Jaime are characters who weren’t originally meant to be main characters (that’s why they aren’t in the first book), but then they did become leading characters, (almost) as important as the other 5/6.
      I think the fact that, in the show, they died just one episode before the ending is a reflection of their status: almost as important as the Big 5/6, but not quite.

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    125. Ten Bears: Not long-winded at all.
      Very interesting read about secondary characters and book! vs. show! Jon Snow.

      Oh good! Between yours and oierem’s responses, I’m glad some are interested 🙂

      oierem,

      I think we both agree overall. The difference being that you place more importance in the role of the secondary characters/how they influence the main characters on their journey to the destination. Perhaps I’m understating their importance, but I do think it’s important to see clearly who the main characters are and what the main story beats are, in order to understand how it’s going to play out

      Well, I think it’s the journey to these plot points that I find important because I think secondary characters have a big impact there and I think that is so much a part of the story and the characters’ motivations, including the main characters.

      (and also, I wish Martin could see that more clearly – his insistence that Loras’s older brothers, Khal whatever-his-name-is, Lady Stoneheart and many other minor characters are important is what has lead him to this situation of not being able to finish the books).

      I think the major problem is GRRM’s lack of planning. I think a complex story like this can work out and work out well… if GRRM stopped relying so much on, “I’ll figure it out as I go — hey, the game’s on! I’ll figure it out later.” [10 years go by] “… Still working on it, guys, I promise!! Hey, is that a tear in the wallpaper? Better go fix that up and then I’ll get back to it!”

      In essence, I think GRRM is stuck and procrastinating as a result since he’s thrown so much up in the air that he needs to tie together in a cohesive way — which may be why he seems so prone to every distraction.

      When I say secondary characters are disposable that’s just because…. they are! D&D omitted some of them, proving my point.

      Well, I think we’ve come to a standstill on this. I don’t think D&D cutting some of these secondary characters in and of itself. I think these will have an impact, some perhaps major impacts. I think D&D did it to simplify and streamline plotlines (some decisions which I felt worked, some decisions which I felt did not work so well) but I think that also caused a change in the narrative and character development… even characterization in some cases.

      (the example you give about Jon’s S5/ADWD storylines is a good point… the narrative has important differences, but the story doesn’t and the result is ultimately the same).

      Oh, I think the story between the two does have important differences! One of which is the motivation of the mutineers. They don’t kill Jon simply because they’re bigoted jerkwads, they kill Jon because he is putting the Watch at risk and is the reason why Ramsay is now retaliating. And I also think Jon’s choices reveal a lot about his characters in the conflicts he faces, what he decides on, how he decides, and the process in which he goes through with that.

      It also shows how Jon approaches his rule, power, the strengths of his visions and leadership, the weaknesses and his Achille’s heel, how he makes decisions, why he makes decisions, why he feels leading sucks as Lord Commander — all of which I think are important to the story.

      I forgot to address your point about Young Griff/Cersei. I’ve read that theory (that Cersei will die much earlier and Young Griff will take her role in a way) many times, but I find it hard to believe, just based on how fucking irrelevant Young Griff is both as a character (again, no POV=no protagonist) and in the narrative (introduced in book 5!). Not to mention it’s yet another instance of the dumb “he-was-dead-but-oh-he-is-alive” trick that Martin seems to like so much.

      For my part, I don’t think Young Griff is irrelevant or will be irrelevant. We also don’t know how his story will play out in the final books and how that will influence the main threads.

      It’s my expectation that Young Griff will be an example of Varys’s, “Power resides where men believe it resides,” even if Young Griff is not truly who he says he is.

      Because Young Griff has the right education, has been mentored on how to win support, raised to be a king, has the right look, is the right age which matches up with the kid he is claiming to be (and who Westeros knows existed), people might very well believe (and want to believe) he is who he says he is — the only son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell. And some may be drawn to support him because of this, especially since he’s been taught how to win over the people and is arriving in Westeros as a fresh slate, free of any stigma or reputation following him around.

      Even if Young Griff only serves as a catalyst for some major events, I think that would be important.

      I think the fact that, in the show, they died just one episode before the ending is a reflection of their status: almost as important as the Big 5/6, but not quite.

      Even so, I think they have a pretty important part to play.

      Good discussion! I much prefer this kind of posts instead of musical interludes and talk about unrelated content 🙂

      Oh, I’m happy to engage in stuff like this! If something such as this topic strikes my fancy, I’ll definitely get involved! But I still like the musical interludes and OT stuff, which can bring some levity to long and intense discussions 🙂

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    126. Adrianacandle,

      Ahem, forgot to finish a sentence

      *I don’t think D&D cutting some of these secondary characters in and of itself *means that they are disposable.

      Connection between brain and fingers briefly short-circuited and data that I thought was being outputted had been skipped like a corrupted cluster 🙂

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    127. There were times I thought GRRM’s Littlefinger must have been the dimmest mastermind going. I know GRRM took some inspiration from Maurice Druon’s Accursed Kings so Lf could be basedin part on a character called Artois.

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    128. Adrianacandle,

      ”Well, I think it’s the journey to these plot points that I find important because I think secondary characters have a big impact there and I think that is so much a part of the story and the characters’ motivations…”

      Now do Sandor.

      🐓🐓

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    129. Ten Bears: Now do Sandor.

      🐓🐓

      That’s an interesting challenge! I think Sandor is an important secondary character too (and wish he had a POV) but I had never thought as much about the differences between Sandor’s book and show arc, though there are some — particularly his relationship with Sansa and the impact it has on Sansa (like the unkiss, which I think is Sansa trying to reimagine traumatic incidents as the fairytale she so longed for in the wake of the nightmare she’s experiencing and in some ways, she has Sandor as the knight), which didn’t quite go to the same extent on the show as it did in the books. But now, I have to think about that 🙂

      And Sandor is able to pull some interesting stuff from Arya, especially with how she feels about Sansa vs. how Sandor feels about his brother.

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    130. Adrianacandle,

      I’m going to tentatively say it probably was abandoned in the show, like many prophecies were. That and the show didn’t include this prophecy. The full wording is, “To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

      That may describe Planetos being a globe and book-Dany possibly (eventually) taking the long way around the world to reach various destinations. The last part is interesting too: As you know, the Shadow Lands are a region beyond Asshai and are described as lying “under the Shadow”.

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    131. Jai: That may describe Planetos being a globe and book-Dany possibly (eventually) taking the long way around the world to reach various destinations. The last part is interesting too: As you know, the Shadow Lands are a region beyond Asshai and are described as lying “under the Shadow”.

      That’s an interesting and intriguing speculation! And it brings to mind this video from Alt Shift X:

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    132. Adrianacandle,

      There are also intriguing theories suggesting the prophecy doesn’t refer to Dany at all. Some people think it describes the Starks (especially Jon), but my personal theory is that it may actually refer to Tyrion. The books obviously describe Tyrion wandering around on various long-distance journeys, and as I’ve mentioned here before, at the end of GoT Tyrion is Westeros’s de facto king.

      The hero undergoing long-distance expeditions is also a common trope in classical mythology, especially Greco-Roman stories and their Indian equivalents. GRRM appears to have an impressively detailed knowledge of those ancient stories, and a striking number of ASOIAF/GoT’s plotlines and character arcs echo them. So Tyrion’s storyline in the books could be a deliberate parallel too, and it may all eventually turn out to have a purpose if it’s connected to the prophecy.

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    133. Ten Bears,

      Jai,

      [Jai’s] comment got me thinking about who has traveled the most throughout Planeteos out of the mains in the books (so far). I think it’s a tie between Tyrion and Arya (as Ten Bear’s video alludes to with depicting Arya’s escape from Westeros) with Dany as a third.

      Tyrion has traveled to various places in Westeros (the Crownlands, the Westerlands, the Eyrie, Riverrun, the North, and the Wall, before traveling throughout Essos).

      Arya has traveled from the North to King’s Landing, has spent her time on the run from King’s Landing to the Wall before that’s intercepted, she ends up at Harrenhall, and is later taken to Riverrun and the Eyrie by the Hound, before she goes to Braavos and travels throughout that area.

      And Dany has traveled across the continent of Essos, spent some of her childhood on the run in Braavos where she lived in the only place she considered closest to home after being smuggled from Dragonstone as a child.

      I hope we eventually get to see how this prophecy manifests!

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    134. Adrianacandle,

      Another aspect of the “hero’s long distance expeditions trope,” in mythology and in movies, is that often the hero isn’t recognized when she or he makes it back home.

      I think this was used in The Odyssey.
      It was used in the movie “Braveheart,” when grownup William Wallace returned to his village and knocked out his childhood friend, Jeor Mormont’s son, with a rock to the forehead.
      I’m not sure if it was used in the Robin Hood legend – when King Richard returns from years away in the Crusades (?)

      Anyway, I was among the fans who were hoping or predicting before S8 that Jon Snow would come upon a certain diminutive ninja in action before realizing who she really was, after so many years apart while she was on her long journey.

      I had never considered the trope as applying to Tyrion or Daenerys for that matter, since both were recognizable, and Dany did not conceal her identity.

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    135. Ten Bears: I had never considered the trope as applying to Tyrion or Daenerys for that matter, since both were recognizable, and Dany did not conceal her identity.

      As you describe the trope itself, yes, I think that would be most applicable to Arya. She can arrive with anyone’s face and completely conceal her identity beyond having her real face hidden by a veil or cloak.

      I was more thinking of the quote/prophecy itself. Since it’s said by Quaithe to Dany and no other character receives a quote really like it, I think it has to do with/applies to Dany in some way. Otherwise, I think it’d be strange that specifically Dany is told something like this and nobody else (that I can remember). It may also apply to other characters too! The prophecy itself may not necessarily mean the trope of a “hero’s long distance expeditions.” However, speculation on that prophecy can go a myriad of different ways.

      The comment “various long-distance journeys” just got me pondering which characters have done the most traveling so far 🙂

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    136. Adrianacandle,

      Fun fact: Jon travelled from the North to the South (and vice versa) six times over the course of seasons 7 and 8:

      1. Winterfell to Dragonstone (7×2-7×3)
      2. Dragonstone to Eastwatch (7×5)
      3. Eastwatch to King’s Landing (7×6-7×7)
      4. Dragonstone to Winterfell (7×7-8×1)
      5. Winterfell to Dragonstone (8×4-8×5)
      6. King’s Landing to Castle Black (8×6)

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    137. Farimer123,

      Yes, that is a lot of travel and I had considered it! However, I was more referring to where characters have journeyed in the books so far in reference to the book prophecy we were discussing but I realize I wasn’t so clear on that 🙂

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    138. Meh has Ryan Condal ever written or been a part of anything creatively that anyone really remembers or loves? This is why I’m not enthused by House of Dragons, the quality of your show is proportionate to the talent of your show runner. And there’s just nothing about Ryan’s resume that excites me or proves that he’s dynamic enough to lead a GoT series.

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    139. Mr Derp,

      I just listened again to your musical interlude:
      Ozzy Osbourne’s “Bark at the Moon,” which you posted above. It reminded me of the type of high energy heavy metal songs selected by major league relief pitchers to play over the Public Address system when they walk in from the bullpen to the pitcher’s mound.

      Aside from the White Walker-looking creature in the thumbnail, the in-your-face Ozzy Osborne song could’ve been a good soundtrack for the Night King and his army when they “took the field” in the beginning of S8e3.
      I’ve got a comparable song selection for the S8e3 Winterfell defenders or S6e9 Stark army courtesy of the Brotherhood Without Banners – I mean The Outlaws, aka The Florida Guitar Army. I may post it later with a ⚠️ warning and spoiler-coding in deference to anyone who’s not interested.

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    140. Jai: “To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

      Well, I took it to be realized, as such: to go to Westeros, she went to Slavers’Bay (to get an army, a fleet, some experience). When she was stuck, she went backwards (Dothrakis), at least in the show. But that may be a very down to earth interpretation. And I have no real clue for the last sentence (I link light and shadow to too many things).

        Quote  Reply

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