George R.R. Martin discusses his least favorite scene from Game of Thrones; it’s probably not what you think

Robert-Baratheon

George R.R. Martin has been quite open with his opinions regarding Game of Thrones, both positive and critical. Recently, James Hibberd released a snippet from his upcoming book, Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon, in which Martin expresses disappointment at Lady Stoneheart’s omission, for example. Now Hibberd has published another interview excerpt for Entertainment Weekly, in which Martin discusses which scene from Game of Thrones he considers his least favorite.

Surprisingly (or maybe not), it’s a scene from quite early on in the show’s run in which Robert Baratheon goes hunting with Barristan Selmy, Renly Baratheon and Lancel Lannister.

Though Robert’s rant about “the good ol’ days” and verbal sparring match with his younger brother aren’t depicted in Martin’s books, the hunting subplot and character beats are all in keeping with the source material.

However, Martin says his issue has less to do with the content of the scene itself and more with the budgetary restrictions surrounding it. Sometimes it’s hard to believe that Game of Thrones was ever strapped for cash but back in season 1, the show just didn’t have the budget to allow Robert and co. to hunt in authentic, kingly splendor.

″Where we really fell down in terms of budget was my least favorite scene in the entire show, in all eight seasons: King Robert goes hunting. Four guys walking on foot through the woods carrying spears and Robert is giving Renly s—. In the books, Robert goes off hunting, we get word he was gored by a boar, and they bring him back and he dies. So I never did [a hunting scene]. But I knew what a royal hunting party was like. There would have been a hundred guys. There would have been pavilions. There would have been huntsmen. There would have been dogs. There would have been horns blowing — that’s how a king goes hunting! He wouldn’t have just been walking through the woods with three of his friends holding spears hoping to meet a boar. But at that point, we couldn’t afford horses or dogs or pavilions.”

Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon: Game of Thrones and the Untold Story of the Epic Series will be released on October 6 and is available for preorder on Amazon now.

383 responses

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    1. Interesting choice for least favorite scene.

      He’s irked by the fact the hunting scene wasn’t realistic enough in a show that featured dragons and white walkers.

      It’d be interesting to get a list of people’s least favorite GoT scenes.

      I’d have to go with:

      any Theon torture porn in season 3
      the “sexposition” scene in 1×7
      Jaime/Cersei random rape scene in 4×3
      Sansa’s wedding night
      the entire dragonpit scene
      any scenes with Direwolves/Dragons dying
      Sansa/Jon “don’t do what he wants you to do” argument

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    2. Mr Derp: He’s irked by the fact the hunting scene wasn’t realistic enough in a show that featured dragons and white walkers.

      I don’t know if this is exactly a contradiction (if that’s what you meant!) as a hunting party isn’t really a fantastical element in the way dragons and ice zombies are but was a feature of real history. It feels like there are times GRRM will envision things in his head but when it came to executing some of these scenes on screen, it sounds like there has been disappointment over how they were executed due to resource constraints.

      With this scene, it sounds like, to GRRM, this wasn’t a realistic depiction of a royal hunting party and this was something that really disappointed him and he felt was fairly inaccurate (three friends walking through the woods with hunting gear vs. a whole giant hunting party with all the bells and whistles). I believe while GRRM does mix fantasy and realistic elements, he wants to explore fantastical elements in a realistic setting.

      Or I could be totally off the mark.

      For myself, while I agree with some of your choices, I have some trepidation over listing least favourite scenes as I feel we’re going to get involved in some of the same arguments, particularly with regard to season 8, and have the same debates/arguments. I really wish we had some fresh news at this point :/

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    3. Adrianacandle: I really wish we had some fresh news at this point :/

      I should add the amendment that while I wish we had some fresh news at this point (about projects like the prequel!) for some new things to discuss, I didn’t mean to say that this article wasn’t interesting! I think it was and does provide some interesting tidbits into what GRRM values in a scene 🙂

      It reminds me of GRRM’s comments on how the Iron Throne should have looked. In his mind, it was far bigger, far more ugly, like this monumental looking thing whereas in the show, it was quite a bit smaller.

      It feels like when GRRM was writing ASOIAF, he was writing a story that would challenge a lot of budget and resource constraints. I think he touched on that here:

      “All of my first drafts tended to be too big or too expensive. I always hated the process of having to cut,” [Martin] told Entertainment Weekly in an interview prior to Thrones ‘ premiere on HBO. “I said, ‘I’m sick of this, I’m going to write something that’s as big as I want it to be, and it’s going to have a cast of characters that go into the thousands, and I’m going to have huge castles, and battles, and dragons.'”

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    4. Adrianacandle: For myself, while I agree with some of your choices, I have some trepidation over listing least favourite scenes as I feel we’re going to get involved in some of the same arguments, particularly with regard to season 8, and have the same debates/arguments. I really wish we had some fresh news at this point :/

      I think we’re all adults and can handle the subject matter without arguing or getting nasty.

      If there are those that can’t, then they should probably refrain from participating.

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    5. Mr Derp: I think we’re all adults and can handle the subject matter without arguing or getting nasty.

      If there are those that can’t, then they should probably refrain from participating.

      I apologize, when I voiced my apprehension, I didn’t mean to imply we weren’t (nor did I intend to censor!) Plus I know I’ve definitely taken part in many of those debates so I’m not exempt either. I guess it’s also a desire for new things to discuss as well (I’m pretty sad covid as halted production on House of the Dragon and goodness knows when we’ll be getting TWOW!)

      No offense was meant, Mr Derp! As I said in the other thread, you’ve often articulated ideas I have trouble putting into words and I’ve followed your posts for years on this site — before I started posting myself 🙂

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    6. My two least favorite scenes are probably the Littlefinger brothel scene in season 1 and the Water Gardens fight in season 5.

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    7. Adrianacandle: I apologize, when I voiced my apprehension, I didn’t mean to imply we weren’t (nor did I intend to censor!) Plus I know I’ve definitely taken part in many of those debates so I’m not exempt either. I guess it’s also a desire for new things to discuss as well (I’m pretty sad covid as halted production on House of the Dragon and goodness knows when we’ll be getting TWOW!)

      No offense was meant, Mr Derp! As I said in the other thread, you’ve often articulated ideas I have trouble putting into words and I’ve followed your posts for years on this site — before I started posting myself 🙂

      No offense was taken, Miss Candle 🙂

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    8. Adrianacandle: I don’t know if this is exactly a contradiction (if that’s what you meant!) as a hunting party isn’t really a fantastical element in the way dragons and ice zombies are but was a feature of real history. It feels like there are times GRRM will envision things in his head but when it came to executing some of these scenes on screen, it sounds like there has been disappointment over how they were executed due to resource constraints.

      With this scene, it sounds like, to GRRM, this wasn’t a rea

      I know what you mean. I just thought it was a little silly for GRRM to say the worst scene in the entire show was the hunting scene simply because there wasn’t enough pomp and circumstance involved. Sure, it would’ve been more realistic, but I never found that scene to be so off the mark that it took me right out of the show.

      It’s one thing if there’s an egregious historical error like there was in “Braveheart”. That movie is littered with blatant historical inaccuracies, but GRRM’s complaint is really more about the minutia of the hunting scene. I just find that interesting. To each their own 🙂

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    9. Mr Derp: I know what you mean. I just thought it was a little silly for GRRM to say the worst scene in the entire show was the hunting scene simply because there wasn’t enough pomp and circumstance involved. Sure, it would’ve been more realistic, but I never found that scene to be so off the mark that it took me right out of the show.

      It’s one thing if there’s an egregious historical error like there was in “Braveheart”. That movie is littered with blatant historical inaccuracies, but GRRM’s complaint is really more about the minutia of the hunting scene. I just find that interesting. To each their own 🙂

      I totally get you! I also think if there’s any word to describe a strength and flaw in GRRM, it’d be ‘minutia’. I think, with GRRM’s focus on details, they are what stall GRRM the most (he’s great at world-building but it seems he’s having trouble bringing his story home with the sheer amount of plotlines and details) and I think they are also what lend so much to GRRM’s stories. It feels like a double-edged sword. In this way, I’m not surprised by GRRM’s answer (especially considering how much they had to tone the scene down) but I would agree this is a… a unique answer.

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    10. Mr Derp: I think we’re all adults and can handle the subject matter without arguing or getting nasty.
      If there are those that can’t, then they should probably refrain from participating.

      It’s just boring. People repeating the same arguments for the 50th time. Every single discussion seems to end up the same.

      One of my least favourite scenes is Tyrion’s speech about Cousin Orson and his beetles. It just went on too long.

      I didn’t mind the stripped-down hunting scene. It was good dialogue, and I didn’t really notice the lack of trappings. I would always take interesting and entertaining content over spectacular effects.

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    11. Grandmaester Flash,

      I hear you.

      GoT’s been over for more than a year and the prequel has a long way to go before it’s ready, so there’s not much else to talk about.

      I’m always open to new topics and suggestions though.

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    12. Mr Derp: I’m always open to new topics and suggestions though.

      I’ll think on that with regard to show topics!

      My proposed topic is a bit more about the fandom itself (and might be a bit boring) but I’d be interested in how everyone got into the show! And maybe the first scene that really grabbed you? I remember the show starting off so quietly but then it just blew up into this world-wide phenomenon!

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    13. It sounds like Martin may actually be a bit jealous: he didn’t even write a hunting scene, and D&D actually produced one, on their then-limited budget. 😉

      (Not only did they produce it, they produced the memorable phrase, “Makin’ the 8.”)

      Seriously, there could be any number of good reasons these four characters detached from the large and unseen hunting party they did bring. Robert telling everyone else to f*ck off so he could chase a big boar more stealthily, for instance. Martin needs some imagination. 😉

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    14. I thought we were going to talk about favourite and least-favourite scenes?
      There’s no need for it to morph into arguments about S8. There are 67 other episodes to dip into.

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    15. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: Seriously, there could be any number of good reasons these four characters detached from the large and unseen hunting party they did bring. Robert telling everyone else to f*ck off so he could chase a big boar more stealthily, for instance. Martin needs some imagination.

      You know, that does sound pretty in-character for Robert 😉

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    16. Adding some of my own thoughts here: it’s interesting when I hear the question “What’s your least favorite GoT scene” and I realize I could hand-count the scenes I actually wasn’t fond of. In 73-episode show, I realize how fully present I was in every scene, how fully invested into the story. Whether it was a big scene or just two characters having a subtle conversation, I always “felt it”… I felt what generally grips me to my favorite TV shows. And another interesting thing is that unlike with my other favorite TV shows, there’s no episode here I wouldn’t look forward to (re)watching… in every episode, there’s always something to look forward to. THere are maybe 2-3 episodes from early seasons that I’m kind of neutral… such as “Lord Snow” or “Prince of Winterfell” which mostly just provide build-up. Whether it’s because of complex story and layered characters, epic grand scale of the story (definitely bigger than majority of TV shows), amazing visuals or amazing cast ensemble, I don’t know. But it hell of worked for me.

      Speaking of the few scenes I wasn’t fond of, they’re mainly brothel scenes or scenes that heavily relied on sexual exposition without affecting any plot (Rose on the cart for example), maybe also the first scene with Ellaria and Sand Snakes… that scene just felt rushed and empty to me. But among these couple scenes, I definitely have a firm winner for my least favorite scene and that’s no doubt the brothel scene from S01E07… when Littlefinger is monologuing and Ros and Armeca are… practicing. That’s a scene I literally await to be over because I internally cringe so much. ANd “You Win or You Die” episode could have been much higher on my ranklist if there wasn’t for this scene.

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    17. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      When Robert and his entourage were leaving Winterfell and were heading back to King’s Landing, he did suggest he and Ned headed off on their own to make it more adventurous. Ned said no, but I don’t see the three men in the hunting scene denying the king what he wants, or even if one of them did object, I don’t see Robert listening to them.

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    18. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      Prior to Season 7, my spouse and I sat down for a “limited re-watch,” from the first six seasons, of “just our favorite scenes.” We found ourselves watching every episode, all of the way through, because we had no non-favorite scenes. 🙂

      For “least favorite scenes,” I’d nominate anything with Sansa sitting by a window. D&D up-jumped her character from supporting-tier to first-tier, and then gave Sophie Turner little to do. She managed to make a meal of those crumbs, but some of her scenes still felt irrelevant to the story.

      And, of course, a least favorite scene could be any scene where the audience is told about how great Sansa is (or is becoming) without us getting shown her character’s progression. Again, not the fault of Sophie Turner, but of the writing. (It’s a visual medium, folks!)

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    19. Mr Derp:
      Grandmaester Flash,

      …GoT’s been over for more than a year and the prequel has a long way to go before it’s ready, so there’s not much else to talk about.

      I’m always open to new topics and suggestions though.

      Time for a Musical Interlude? 🕳 🐇

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    20. If I had to choose a least favourite scene, it would probably be something from season 1 too. The season is great because the source material is really strong, but sometimes it’s visually disappointing (the arrival at King’s Landing at the beginning of 103 comes to my mind: we don’t even have an establishing shot of the city or the castle!), and the chapter by chapter adaptation leaves some important holes (for example, in 102, you have absolutely no idea which of the Stark kids are going south -if any- or why. We don’t see Sansa until the last third of the episode, when she suddenly appears walking on the road).

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    21. Mr Derp,

      That is an interesting theme!
      Although I would go with all the unnecessary porn and sexual violence as being the worst, closely followed by Theon’s torture (which is only implied in the books), I also think that the aesthetics part is intriguing.
      Whatever got them to think that the North was dirty? Colorless? That the outlook of high nobility would comprise peasant dresses, drab colors and three-four days’ unshaved beards (which give the effect of “dirtiness” to men) in the presence of a king, or at court? Why was there straw on the floor of the great hall at Winterfell? What, no brooms in the North? Why was Catelyn not being attended by ladies in waiting or maids? The logistics of binding and unbinding all those laces of medieval female attire is exasperating; one would need an entire support system to do it.
      The “dirtiness” of the North is closely followed by Margaery’s unnecessary nudity and Daenerys’ epic wigs.
      I know they meant for the first season of GoT to be somewhat dirtier and much darker than the pilot, but the straw on the floor was really baffling.
      The aristocracy was ostentatious everywhere in the medieval world. The Northerners would have their own symbols and luxury items, i.e. pelts and furs (nicely done in GoT), but also rich velvets, brocades, laces (wool can always be worn underneath these clothes for warmth), silver and gold jewelry, ivory or amber. They’d be in full display in front of the king and queen.

      So I get Martin’s frustration. A king walking alone (or with a couple attendants) in the woods is funny to say the least.
      That said, Martin himself made several such mistakes in the first book, i.e. Catelyn having no maids and appearing naked in front of maester Luwin, Sansa being left unattended in KL, blatant absence of female personnel in Ned’s household in WF and KL, etc., etc.

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    22. Part 1

      —-
      Musical Interlude
      Dedicated by Jorah Mormont to
      his Khaleesi for S8e3

      S8e3 Jorah dies to protect Dany during “The Long Night”
      (beginning at 2:20 of 4:42 long clip):

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Sk7tSSES4

      ——-

      🎶When you’re standing at the crossroads
      And don’t know which path to choose
      Let me come along
      Because even if you’re wrong
      I’ll stand by you

      I’ll stand by you
      Won’t let nobody hurt you
      I’ll stand by you
      Take me in, into your darkest hour
      And I’ll never desert you
      I’ll stand by you

      ***
      And when, when the night falls on you,
      You’re feeling all alone,
      You won’t be on your own,
      I’ll stand by you,
      I’ll stand by you
      Won’t let nobody hurt you
      I’ll stand by you”
      🎶

      Chrissie Hynde & The Pretenders,
      “I’ll Stand By You”

      at 20:30 of the second link below [in Part 2 to follow]
      (The first link is to a video of one song out of seven performed live on Sept. 10, 2020. For now, the full 24:25 long live concert “at home“ in the second link is available in audio only – but Chrissie Hynde sounds really, really good. Even after all these years.)

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    23. Ten Bears,

      You may cringe at this but the first time I heard this song (and the only way I know of this song) was due to Glee… Ah, it introduced me to so many songs when I watched that show… Before it turned into a glorified soap box… (it was great in its first season!)

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    24. Part 2

      • Chrissie Hynde & The Pretenders
      “Back on the Chain Gang”
      Live at “Radio 2 Home Gardens”
      September 10, 2020 Video (4:20 long)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOaCm91oy5M

      • Chrissie Hynde/The Pretenders Sept. 10, 2020
      Recorded Live at “Radio 2 Home Gardens”
      – Audio Only (24:25 long)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7-PSJq0T6M

      Set List: 9/10/20 Live Recording
      [I do not recognize the first, third, and fifth songs]

      • Maybe Love Is In NYC
      • Back On The Chain Gang (released 1979)
      at 3:15 -7:23 (also, video above)
      • The Buzz
      • Stop Your Sobbing (released 1979)
      at 11:04 – 13:17
      • You Can’t Hurt A Fool
      • Brass In Pocket (released 1979)
      at 17:15 -20:27
      • I’ll Stand By You (released 1994)
      20:30 – 24:25

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    25. Efi,

      Whatever got them to think that the North was dirty? Colorless? That the outlook of high nobility would comprise peasant dresses, drab colors and three-four days’ unshaved beards (which give the effect of “dirtiness” to men) in the presence of a king, or at court?

      I’d argue they were following the books. Westeros is never described as a wealthy or cultured place, and so what we saw was their “finery.” (When Peter ‘the Great’ Romanov returned to his own country, the first thing he told his noble court was, “gentlemen do not pick their teeth with knives.”) Northmen are considered the rough people of Westeros, so it makes sense they’d have poorer clothing and personal grooming than anyone else.

      Why was there straw on the floor of the great hall at Winterfell?

      In the books, castle floors are constantly covered with “rushes,” dry reeds, because stone floors are cold, damp, and hard. (Even “high in the halls of the kings who are gone,” Jenny dances on “the damp, old stones.”)

      The aristocracy was ostentatious everywhere in the medieval world. The Northerners would have their own symbols and luxury items, i.e. pelts and furs (nicely done in GoT), but also rich velvets, brocades, laces (wool can always be worn underneath these clothes for warmth), silver and gold jewelry, ivory or amber. They’d be in full display in front of the king and queen.

      Again, the Northerners, to the extent they actually cared what a ‘Southron’ King thought, might have dressed up for the occasion, but what we were seeing was their best. The only House with gold is the Lannisters, and the North isn’t exactly on any Silk Route or Trade Wind. It’s rough country, with rough people who disdain outsiders.

      …closely followed by Margaery’s unnecessary nudity and Daenerys’ epic wigs.

      Oleanna had Margaery fully ‘on display’ as the beautiful heiress to a wealthy House, and Margaery did wed not one, but two heirs to the Iron Throne. Dany spent most of her life as guest in the sumptuous mansions of Merchant Princes in the Free Cities. She had plenty of good food, wealth, and health to spare. In each woman’s case, a Queen-in-the-Making would naturally have shown off such advantages.

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    26. In speaking to the writer, GRRM seems to have been careful in his choice of a least favorite scene.

      It is not one that many viewers will remember. It should not trigger any – I told you so! – from the viewers or any backlash. Of course, it was one that was not written by him so it is not an error in adaptation. It was also one he could point to specific weakness that could be blamed on an already known constrain of budget.

      Good choice!

      I am not saying that he is lying. I just pointing out that it is a sensible choice.

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    27. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Sansa is my favorite character and I actually have no problems at all with her portrayal in S8. In fact, if I was picking my least favorite Sansa moments, I would sooner pick something from S3 when I felt she was a bit back in clouds again (contray to S2 where she seemed completely disillusioned about that). In my eyes, she was consistently characterized in second half of the show. I love the fact how the most non-Stark-like Stark character from S1, who dreamt all her life about leaving North, found her heart and purpose in the North itself. I love how a character, whose wish in the future was to marry a handsome nobleman and have babies with no interest in politics, ended up “fighting” for North’s independence.

      In my opinion, the idea of independent kingdoms was always the right one and that’s why I love how at the end of the story they abolished hereditary monarchy and the King of Westeros became more of a symbol of union rather than a person who holds entire continent in their grasp… in my eyes, this was symbolized in a scene where Bran leaves the small council, leaving the fate of the kingdoms in hands of people themselves. So Sansa’s wish for North’s independence was something I always fully admired. After all, the only reason North was not independent for 300 years is because Aegon I. frightened them into submission and regarding what we know from his conquest, he wouldn’t have second thoughts regarding torching tens of thousands of people if they didn’t submit to him.

      There’s so much I love about Sansa in this second half of the show. If I list some… the fact that Ramsay never really “broke her” which indicated she’s internally very strong. Then the fact she managed to penetrate Theon’s Reek persona which was crucial for their escape which was the beginning of Boltons’ downfall… and I especially love that she actively tried to get to Theon and it didn’t just “happen”. Then I no less but admire the fact that the first thing she did after successfully escaping Winterfell was planning to re-take it, as impossible as the idea seemed. This is a story point I especially admire when it comes to her as a character because for 4 seasons and part of the fifth, she was just surviving, following people. But now she finally found the idea to fight for as hard as it was to achieve. Reclaiming Winterfell was an immense win for protagonists in GoT story which was no short of tormenting moments for 5 seasons at this point.

      And then in S7 and S8, I got an impression Sansa was strong and independent woman who was very respected by her people. She successfully held Winterfell, she knew how to manage it, she cared about her people family and she had her priorities sorted out. And I think the scene that very well resembles this is when she and Dany have that sitdown because in that scene, I truly felt they’re equals.. that one side does not “need” to submit to the other. And I don’t think I would get such feeling from Sansa if she didn’t grow into strong and independent lady in my eyes. Pretty much anyone who talked to Dany at that point, I felt like Dany was always in position of power and that she was “supposed” to be in position of power. Here with Sansa, it was one of the very few moments when I truly felt they were equals. It just saddens me they couldn’t sort out the elephant in the room (“What about the North?”) because that would be crucial for peace. And last but not least, I think majority of Sansa’s rough moments in later seasons originated from the fact she cared about her family, especially her angsty relationship with Jon. There were moments when I felt she needed to work on her attitude but I never got an impression she wouldn’t care about Jon as her brother.

      Was there room for improvement regarding her portrayal? Of course. Do I approve every single bit she did? Of course not. But in my eyes, she worked well as a character and she still remains my favorite GoT character up to this day. I love her inner strength, her northern stubborness, her confidence… I love the fact that there was a fierce northern “fighter” hidden inside her, I love the fact that she grew from young, naive girl into strong, independent and determined young lady. And I think despite her ups and downs through the story, her heart was in the right place.

      Just my own thoughts on Sansa and why I love her character

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    28. There were a couple of scenes in season 2 that jarred with me – though I wasn’t familiar with the books then. It wasn’t that they were badly acted but one was in the scene where Robb and Talisa first met when she was leaving and Robb had mentioned to her that it was fortunate for the soldier who had lost a leg that she had been around and she replied that it was unfortunate for the soldier that Robb was around. It jarred with me – even a noblewoman wouldn’t have spoken to a king like that in feudal times, especially a king she didn’t know. If she’d spoken to Joffrey like that she’d have ended up with her head on a spike. Then when Jaime killed his cousin I thought it was overkill – we already knew that Jaime was capable of bad and ruthless things from the time he pushed Bran from the tower. When I did get round to the books Jaime didn’t kill the cousin (who was called Cleos (sp? – going from memory) not Alton).

      Mango, I think GRRM is independently wealthy enough (down to his own efforts, fair play to him) not to have to mince his words worrying about what others might think.

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    29. How I became interested in GoT – I watched the first two seasons of GoT from a site where they had been uploaded. Someone had told me that her daughter had bought her the first book in the ASOIAF at Christmas and that it was a “good read” but had a heck of a lot of characters in. I thought I’d give it a try but no luck at the library so I think I googled something about how to watch the TV show online. I’d recently finished watching “Merlin” on the Beeb and I can be a sucker for a swords and sorcery tale*. I didn’t really expect to like GoT because I’d seen it described as a cross between “The Sopranos” and LOTR neither of which really floated my boat but I did find myself wanting to know what what happened next when I watched GoT (the first two series). After that I had to wait till the seasons aired the same as everyone else At one time the ASOIAF books read by Roy Dotrice were available on YouTube but I think they must have been removed for copyright issues but they were there long enough for me to listen to them. I read the two last books (AFFC and ADWD).

      * Anyone who has visited this site for any length of time may remember I didn’t like “Camelot” or Hammyrot.

      Going back to my post before this one, of course in the books there is no Talisa.

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    30. Dame of Mercia: Then when Jaime killed his cousin I thought it was overkill – we already knew that Jaime was capable of bad and ruthless things from the time he pushed Bran from the tower. When I did get round to the books Jaime didn’t kill the cousin (who was called Cleos (sp? – going from memory) not Alton).

      I think you’re remembering correctly. Alton Lannister is show-only while, in the books, Jaime’s cousin is Cleos Frey. Cleos seems to serve a similar role to Alton but Cleos is not killed by Jaime. Rather, Cleos is shot down when he, Brienne, and Jaime were ambushed by outlaws.

      How I became interested in GoT – I watched the first two seasons of GoT from a site where they had been uploaded. Someone had told me that her daughter had bought her the first book in the ASOIAF at Christmas and that it was a “good read” but had a heck of a lot of characters in. I thought I’d give it a try but no luck at the library so I think I googled something about how to watch the TV show online. I’d recently finished watching “Merlin” on the Beeb and I can be a sucker for a swords and sorcery tale*. I didn’t really expect to like GoT because I’d seen it described as a cross between “The Sopranos” and LOTR neither of which really floated my boat but I did find myself wanting to know what what happened next when I watched GoT (the first two series). After that I had to wait till the seasons aired the same as everyone else At one time the ASOIAF books read by Roy Dotrice were available on YouTube but I think they must have been removed for copyright issues but they were there long enough for me to listen to them. I read the two last books (AFFC and ADWD).

      * Anyone who has visited this site for any length of time may remember I didn’t like “Camelot” or Hammyrot.

      Thank-you for this! (Are you talking about 2008 Merlin? I also really enjoy that series! :D)

      I got into the show because I was doing an internship overseas and I was staying with my best friend and her boyfriend. My best friend’s boyfriend had the first episode available to watch and gave me the episode so I remember watching it in my room (and a week later, watching the second episode while “helping” my best friend in the kitchen). When I google searched the show, I found out it was based on books. The next day, I bought the eBooks for my phone to read during my train rides/cafe visits when I was out and about 🙂 It took me a little bit to get into the series but clearly, I did!

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    31. Adrianacandle,

      2008 Merlin, yes, though I got into that late. I didn’t think I’d like that because it changed the traditional version of the tale – but then I thought well some of the medieval poems based on the knights of the round table = Chretien de Troyes’s ‘Yvain’ and the English ‘Gawain at the Green Knight’ aren’t cannon for the ‘Morte D’Arthur’ either.

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    32. I remember watching this scene for the first time (I hadn’t read the books then) and I had a similar feeling to George. Not that I didn’t like the scene but something felt missing – likely due to budget. For example the king and 2/3 others just walking through the woods would this happen in reality? Also they are talking then suddenly Robert is in bed dying, granted it would have cost a lot to show him being hit by the bore but they could have done this differently, it just felt like a piece of story was cut.

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    33. Jon Snowed,

      Robert and co. are walking through the woods in episode 6 and he’s brought back in episode 7. It’s not that abrupt transition.

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    34. Understand but had you read the books before watching the scene? It just felt abrupt to me as I didn’t see it coming. Like I say I’m not being particularly critical, I didn’t dislike it but I do recall it stood out to me and I guess that’s part of what George is highlighting.

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    35. Jon Snowed,

      Yes, I’ve read the books prior to this scene and Robert last appears in the books when he’s talking to Ned about going on a hunt. No scenes from the hunt make it to the page because there’s no POV characters among them. Then Robert next appears on his deathbed.

      Personally, I actually find this scene very in-character for Robert and it makes more sense to me how the boar managed to mortally injure him in first place with only Barristan and Renly around. I imagine Robert was more than happy to leave the main hunting party behind and proceed only with his squire, his bodyguard and his brother.

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    36. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Efi wrote: “The “dirtiness” of the North is closely followed by Margaery’s unnecessary nudity and Daenerys’ epic wigs.”

      Tensor the Mage replied:

      “…closely followed by Margaery’s unnecessary nudity and Daenerys’ epic wigs.”

      Oleanna had Margaery fully ‘on display’ as the beautiful heiress to a wealthy House, and Margaery did wed not one, but two heirs to the Iron Throne….

      —————-
      Are we talking about show! Margaery = Natalie Dormer insofar as the criticism of “unnecessary nudity” is concerned?
      I for one did not find anything about Margaery’s scenes to be offensive.

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    37. Ten Bears: I for one did not find anything about Margaery’s scenes to be offensive.

      Same here.

      It’s Game of Thrones. Probably the wrong show for those that are squeamish about, or are unable to handle nudity.

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    38. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      “… Personally, I actually find this scene very in-character for Robert and it makes more sense to me how the boar managed to mortally injure him in first place with only Barristan and Renly around. I imagine Robert was more than happy to leave the main hunting party behind and proceed only with his squire, his bodyguard and his brother.”

      That’s what I thought too. No matter how large an entourage that would have accompanied him, Macho Robert would insist on facing off against the boar one-on-one.

      Oddly enough, I thought I recalled Robert himself or Barristan giving that excuse. Maybe I extrapolated that explanation from what I saw and heard? Or perhaps I supplied that reasoning in response to Joffrey’s later accusation that Barristan failed to safeguard Robert?

      In any event, as you observed, Robert would be “more than happy to leave the main hunting party behind and proceed only with his squire, his bodyguard and his brother.” Hiding behind a phalanx of kingsguard and assistants would be so anti-Robert.

      At least in the show, I viewed Robert as someone trying to relive his past glories when he was a strong, physically imposing young warrior – not the “fat old king” [- per Arya or Sansa?] he’d become after years of eating, drinking, and sitting on his a*s. Robert “Mr. War Stories” Baratheon could not accept the reality that he was no longer that virile young man who could crush an armored adversary’s chest with one swing of a war hammer.

      By contrast, I’m reminded of a line of dialogue from a scene in my all-time favorite movie, “The Outlaw Josey Wales.” An old Indian chief, proud of himself for being able to sneak up behind Josey Wales and hold him at gunpoint, turns around and realizes a young squaw was able to sneak up behind him and hold him at gunpoint (sort of like how Osha held Jojen at spearpoint, only to turn around and realize Meera was holding her at spearpoint, if I recall correctly).

      The old Indian sighs with resignation: “I used to have power. Now old age is creeping up on me.”

      – Lone Wati (Chief Dan George) to Josey Wales (Clint Eastwood).

      Spoiler:

      Lone Wati and Josey Wales become fast friends, and inject a “buddy comedy” vibe into the movie.

      So yeah, Robert could’ve been accompanied on his hunt by an entourage of thousands; he still would have ordered everyone to stand back so he could take on the boar by himself. (He never liked being king anyway, did he? I thought he’d told Ned in S1e1 that he wanted Ned to be Hand of the King and run the realm while he [Robert] drank, ate, and whored himself to death, or something like that.)

      If Robert had a fatal flaw, it wasn’t his profligacy so much as his fixation on living in the past, i.e., reliving his glory days. Great character though…and great performance by Mark Addy, who really surprised me: I remembered him as the self-shaming “fat bastard” from “The Full Monty.”

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    39. Mr Derp: Same here.

      It’s Game of Thrones. Probably the wrong show for those that are squeamish about, or are unable to handle nudity.

      At the risk of sounding crass, I’d suggest that using the term “unnecessary nudity” to describe Margaery’s disrobing would be an oxymoron.

      Margaery was progressive and pragmatic: Whatever it took to get Renly’s motor running was fine with her. He was king and could do whatever pleased him – and she’d gladly join in. (We should all be so fortunate. 😛)

      Disclaimer: I am a big fan of Natalie Dormer – especially after her appearance as Irene Adler (with Jonny Lee Miller as Sherlock Holmes) in CBS’s “Elementary.”
      Margaery was the only casualty of Cersei’s Septapalooza that upset me. (Me to TV during wildfire explosion in S6e10: “Oh no! Not Margaery!”)

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    40. Mango,

      I am shocked, shocked! I tell you, that after 48 comments there hasn’t been a single one bashing GRRM: “Who cares about your least favorite scene on the show? Stop whinging and finish the damn books!”

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    41. Adrianacandle: I’ll think on that with regard to show topics!

      My proposed topic is a bit more about the fandom itself (and might be a bit boring) but I’d be interested in how everyone got into the show! And maybe the first scene that really grabbed you? I remember the show starting off so quietly but then it just blew up into this world-wide phenomenon!

      I like your proposed topic!

      I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned in the past how I got into the show, and the first scene that grabbed me.* I’ll relate them again once this subthread gets going.

      * Hint: S1e1 🎯

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    42. Ten Bears:
      Mango,

      I am shocked, shocked! I tell you, that after 48 comments there hasn’t been a single one bashing GRRM: “Who cares about your least favorite scene on the show? Stop whinging and finish the damn books!”

      Indeed.

      GRRM gets quite a bit of bashing – oddly often from fans that seem to idolize D&D.

      Yes, I can understand the frustrations of the those that are anxiously awaiting the rest of the story.

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    43. Dame of Mercia:

      Mango, I think GRRM is independently wealthy enough (down to his own efforts, fair play to him) not to have to mince his words worrying about what others might think.

      He does have enough money.

      I do not think he is worried about what others think. Sometimes what you say is just about being gracious.

      You know, being mature and kind and tactical and media savvy. It may also be truthful. And it can be truthful simply because the speaker wants it to be in that moment or to that question.

      “Letting it all hang out in public” does not have to happen all the time. Back in day, being diplomatic and polished and private was often considered the right way to behave.

      My post just pointed out that the answer was well constructed. You know, something like one a grown-up (and a clever storyteller) would produce.

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    44. Dame of Mercia: 2008 Merlin, yes, though I got into that late. I didn’t think I’d like that because it changed the traditional version of the tale – but then I thought well some of the medieval poems based on the knights of the round table = Chretien de Troyes’s ‘Yvain’ and the English ‘Gawain at the Green Knight’ aren’t cannon for the ‘Morte D’Arthur’ either.

      Yeah, the series does play with/shifts around elements of the original. But nice points! I enjoyed the series quite a bit though, I think it was well done 🙂 I’ve put it on rewatch a few times for company while working on projects.

      Ten Bears: I like your proposed topic!

      I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned in the past how I got into the show, and the first scene that grabbed me.* I’ll relate them again once this subthread gets going.

      * Hint: S1e1 🎯

      Oh yes, I remember your GoT origin story! I think the scene featured a certain girl… 🙂

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    45. Ten Bears,

      Although some of the nudes were offensive (to my intelligence, e.g. Bronn and the girls in season 8) Natalie Dormer, a very well known actress by now (and by then), was not treated like that. So I didn’t mean offensive, more like distasteful, and literally unnecessary -I could do without. But I am not a puritan.
      It’s just that nowadays nudity on TV has become so common that it is really a surprise when there is none. It’s done for commercial reasons mostly, shock value, etc, but I feel for the young actors and actresses that have to do it for having a chance on screen.

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    46. Efi,

      I actually feel differently.

      Women’s bodies have become so politicized lately that I’m surprised when I see nudity on screen at all anymore without some kind of disclaimer afterwards saying “no woman was harmed or triggered during the filming of this scene”.

      I get what you mean about unnecessary nudity, or gratuitous nudity though. Especially if the actress is not completely comfortable with the scene.

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    47. Although some of the nudes were offensive (to my intelligence, e.g. Bronn and the girls in season 8…

      Worse yet, one of them died of the pox within a year! 😉

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    48. Ten Bears:
      Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      “She’s the smartest person I’ve ever met.” 😡

      There were a few occasions where they actually tried to demonstrate Sansa’s intelligence onscreen, but, IMO, they didn’t really work.

      For example, the scene (I think it was season 7×1?) when Sansa is walking through the Winterfell courtyard with her entourage and she stops to tell the Smiths that they aren’t making armor correctly. As if Sansa would know anything about how to make armor in the first place.

      That scene actually made me laugh out loud because of how obviously bad of an attempt it was to try and demonstrate Sansa’s all-knowing intelligence. It was just so unnecessary and a rare gaffe, IMO.

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    49. Adrianacandle: I’ll think on that with regard to show topics!

      My proposed topic is a bit more about the fandom itself (and might be a bit boring) but I’d be interested in how everyone got into the show! And maybe the first scene that really grabbed you? I remember the show starting off so quietly but then it just blew up into this world-wide phenomenon!

      So, my wife actually started watching GoT before I did. She was there from the beginning. I didn’t want to watch it because I assumed it was going to be a super cheesy version of LOTR.

      She watches a lot more shows than I do, and she knows what shows I like/don’ t like, so she’s kind of my filter. If she watches a show that she thinks I’ll like then I usually give it a shot. That’s how I got into Outlander too.

      There was a GoT marathon on t.v. I turned it on completely by accident not knowing it was GoT, but it held my interest. It was season 2 episode 10 (Valar Morghulis). That episode will always have a soft spot for me because it was the episode that turned me on to GoT.

      After that I quickly caught up to seasons 1 and 2. From then on, I was hooked.

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    50. Mr Derp,

      So, my wife actually started watching GoT before I did. She was there from the beginning. I didn’t want to watch it because I assumed it was going to be a super cheesy version of LOTR.
      She watches a lot more shows than I do, and she knows what shows I like/don’ t like, so she’s kind of my filter. If she watches a show that she thinks I’ll like then I usually give it a shot. That’s how I got into Outlander too.
      There was a GoT marathon on t.v. I turned it on completely by accident not knowing it was GoT, but it held my interest. It was season 2 episode 10 (Valar Morghulis). That episode will always have a soft spot for me because it was the episode that turned me on to GoT.
      After that I quickly caught up to seasons 1 and 2. From then on, I was hooked.

      Thank-you for sharing! 2×10 — your story gave me some added significance to that episode now 🙂

      My dad grew up with Lord of the Rings and is a big, big fan. Since they met, he’s been trying to get my mum into Lord of the Rings but (though she did put in an honest effort), it never really took. However, when she caught Game of Thrones on TV one day (the pilot), it grabbed her interest — as well as my aunt’s,

      Your reference to Lord of the Rings reminded me of that 🙂 I love hearing these kinds of stories!

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    51. Adrianacandle:

      TB wrote: “I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned in the past how I got into the show, and the first scene that grabbed me.* I’ll relate them again once this subthread gets going.”

      * Hint: S1e1 🎯

      Adrianacandle:
      ….Oh yes, I remember your GoT origin story! I think the scene featured a certain girl… 🙂

      Yes you do remember. The precise moment the show “grabbed” me is at 0:41 of this clip from S1e1.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XH9Ti0wKbs

      🎯

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    52. Mr Derp,

      How I “got into the show“ was remarkably similar to the way you did, e.g., as a latecomer who initially dismissed GoT before watching a GoT marathon on HBO.

      I had never heard of GRRM or his books. When I saw promos on HBO I too figured it’d be “a super cheesy version” of Lord of the Rings. I didn’t pay much attention when the show started airing. When I saw “Game of Thrones” in my cable TV program lineup I ignored it.

      I recall reading a TV Guide entry for one Sunday night with an episode synopsis that went something like: “Jon climbs the Wall.” I thought to myself: “Pffft. Sounds as exciting as Jon watches paint dry. Hard pass.”

      Some time later, while channel surfing one afternoon, I stopped on HBO for a few seconds. I saw two guys. Dressed in rags. Sitting next to a rock. In a field. Just talking, apparently. Without bothering to crank up the volume to hear what they were saying, I clicked the remote and changed the channel. I thought to myself, “Well that looked boring…What’d they spend, $1.50 on costumes?”

      (Yes, I confess I have a short attention span and zero patience.)

      It wasn’t until about a year later when I was laid up at home and looking for a distraction to kill some time that I saw that HBO was airing what turned out to be a pre-Season 4 marathon. The first thirty episodes were also available On HBO On Demand.

      So I figured I’d watch Episode 1 to see what the hoopla was all about. (Obviously there was lots of buzz about the show in the media by that point.)

      With an itchy trigger finger on my remote, I started watching. I swear I was seconds away from clicking off the remote when… that little girl zinged the arrow into the bullseye and took a bow with a mischievous smile on her face before running off. [The clip in my 7:48 pm comment above.] That was the moment that “grabbed“ me and drew me in.

      Thirty binge-watched episodes later, and I was ready for the start of Season 4. The last ten minutes of that season’s premier (“Two Chickens” … I mean “Two Swords”) not disappoint.

      During my binge-watch over a 3-4 days I also realized that the scene of the two guys dressed in rags sitting in a field – which I’d dismissed as boring after a few seconds about a year earlier – was Jaime and Qyburn before Jaime decided to go back to rescue Brienne in “The Bear and the Maiden Fair.” Like your experience with S2e10, “Valar Morghulis,” that episode will “always have a soft spot for me” because it reminded me not to be an impatient genre snob – and because it had one of my favorite all-time scenes – Jon & Ygritte, “Oh! A spider! Save me Jon Snow!”

      Of course, finding this site helped amplify my enjoyment immensely.

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    53. Ten Bears: Yes you do remember. The precise moment the show “grabbed” me is at 0:41 of this clip from S1e1.

      [link]

      🎯

      Yes, that’s the one! Arya sneaking up & showing up a frustrated Bran by surprise 🙂

      And thanks for recounting how you got into Game of Thrones!

      For me, GoT and reading ASOIAF book 1-4 will always remind me of this specific cafe in Friesland near my school because, after my internship was done for the day, there were days I’d sit at a table for hours with sauce-drenched fries (similar to mayo), reading the books. When the sun began to set, that was when I’d finally go home on my fake-flower-laden bike — to watch that week’s episode if it was a Monday (to watch Sunday’s episode since the Netherlands was 6 hrs ahead of Toronto time, where I lived then) 🙂

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    54. Adrianacandle,

      Ooh, that sounds like your memories are infused with sensory perceptions: the sauce-drenched fries on the table; the setting sun; riding the bike with the fake flowers…. Those are the best kinds of memories.

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    55. Ten Bears: Ooh, that sounds like your memories are infused with sensory perceptions: the sauce-drenched fries on the table; the setting sun; riding the bike with the fake flowers…. Those are the best kinds of memories.

      Yeah, exactly! It was just such a nice time! (Although I realize I went overboard with descriptions there but like you said, those sensory associations!) Plus, bike flowers are the best! 😉

      And war fries… there’s nothing better than war fries…

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    56. Adrianacandle,

      About your proposed two-part discussion topic, i.e.:

      …how everyone got into the show! And maybe the first scene that really grabbed you.”

      I got to thinking of a possible additional third (sub)-topic unique to GoT. For want of a better description: Pleasant surprises or subverted expectations that were earned (and not just thrown in for shock value).

      – For example, much has been written about GoT killing off the (presumptive) main character played by the marquee actor Sean Bean in the first season, shocking clueless non-book reading fans (like me 🤢)who assumed that there was no way they’d actually behead the hero right in front of his two little girls! No way. Right? Surely someone was going to swoop in and save him at the last minute? No? No!!!! Ackkkkk!!!!
      – And then, the expected “son avenges slain father” arc was cut short when they killed off Robb. JFC! And his mama too???
      – Both were “earned” in the sense that characters were “good guys” but nevertheless made boneheaded decisions that doomed them.

      – On the flip side, there were “villains” who weren’t all bad after all – like the pompous f*ckwit who pushed a little kid out of a window!

      – For me, the biggest and best surprise… [to be continued…]

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    57. Mr Derp,

      Right, so they started with male nudity, lol.
      Much as I enjoy a statue-like naked male figure like Alexander Dreymon, Tom Ellis and Kit Harrington (after all my studies included history of art) I’d enjoy it more if I didn’t have the feel that we see it because the female nude is banned because of over-exposure and outcried sexism. The antidote to that sexism is not to replace it with an overdose of male nudity because men are over-exposed as well and that is sexism too. The antidote would be to have only artistic nudes when the story demands it and when there’s a point to be made. Be that as it may, female nude is still much more common than male nude.
      (I’m keeping in my files pictures of a well-known singer of my country, taken for the promo of the olympics of 2004. They’re very artistic, promoting sports and he’s very athletic and I consider them precious).

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    58. Mango,

      Your point about GRRM perhaps being courteous is valid.

      About bashing GRRM and lauding the two Ds, I don’t think I have personally done that. I have said that the latter part of the series having a perceived change in tone (which some watchers consider a deterioration) is maybe down to six of one and half a dozen of the other. When B&W signed up to adapt the novels they did think by the time they were winding up the TV version the full ASOIAF series would be in print. It can’t have been easy ‘adapting’ two non-existent books. They didn’t sign up to write original material (albeit based on a conclusion told to them by the original author of the show). I thought GRRM’s idea of a good girl gone bad at the end of the series was a sound one. I didn’t think Dany would go rogue though the fact she did makes more sense of the fact I was finding her increasingly dislikeable during ADWD than it did when I was reading that book. I’ve said before I think B&W were sometimes guilty of wanting to expand roles if they liked the actors playing them e.g. making Shae less subservient to Tyrion in the show, making Arya cup-bearer to Tywin rather than Roose. I didn’t mind those changes so much; the one that jarred was making Ellaria into a vengeful harpy because Indira Verma’s interpretation of Ellaria in season 4 was more on a par with her book counterpart than season 5-7 Ellaria.

      This isn’t addressed to Mango in particular – I have realised that I should have said ‘Gawain and the Green Knight’ rather than ‘at’ in one of my posts of yesterday.

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    59. I’m going off on a bit of a tangent. I haven’t seen ‘Enola Holmes’ and I’m not familiar with the source material but I watched a Flicks and the City feature about the film. I had a thought – why do intrepid heroines have to hate sewing? Can’t a female character be ‘kick-ass’ and be a competent seamstress. That would be a useful skill if one had to mend one’s own clothes travelling on the road.

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    60. Ten Bears,

      I’ll think on this! While not a surprise moment, particularly since I read the books, I remember feeling an odd sense of urgency after Arya left a mortally wounded Sandor and made her way to the docks. Even though I knew Arya would be going to Braavos, there was this tension I felt that something would keep Arya from her getaway from Westeros, where she was being hunted.

      And then I felt such relief and satisfaction when Arya got on that ship, made her way to the bow and the ship set sail. I just remember feeling, “She got away.” 🙂

      Dame of Mercia: I’m going off on a bit of a tangent. I haven’t seen ‘Enola Holmes’ and I’m not familiar with the source material but I watched a Flicks and the City feature about the film. I had a thought – why do intrepid heroines have to hate sewing? Can’t a female character be ‘kick-ass’ and be a competent seamstress. That would be a useful skill if one had to mend one’s own clothes travelling on the road.

      I’ll think on this too. In the dusty corners of my mind, I recall some heroines at least knowing how to sew (but that’s different from enjoyment of the activity). Sophie Hatter from Howl’s Moving Castle is a pretty accomplished seamstress (though, again, it seems to be more a job she must do rather than an activity she enjoys herself). However, becoming more confident and more assured is part of Sophie’s character arc. She doesn’t start off as very confident from the outset.

      Also a note about Howl’s Moving Castle: the animated Studio Ghibli film and the 1986 Diana Wynne Jones novel the film is based off of are fairly different stories. Both very enjoyable! But different 🙂

      I think in recent decades (particularly since the 90s), I’ve observed that sewing maybe has garnered a more positive image as something girls (and guys!) want to do with the growing popularity in cosplay 🙂

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    61. Adrianacandle,

      As you are adept with a soldering iron? I know you can operate a laser machine. Having a go at assembling a PC/laptop was one of the things I was thinking of doing in retirement and here I am 10 years (about) retired from full-time work and still haven’t done a lot of them and I don’t know how to use a soldering iron. Maybe I could learn. Since I had the problems with the gluten intolerance although I am now eating a balanced diet and keeping off the gluten, I still to get tired more quickly – no pulling all-nighters for me now though I used to be able to do that (admittedly I’d probably have to sleep late the next day if possible). I’m a bit like a small child now – take a nap or at least a rest now and then to recharge my batteries.

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    62. Dame of Mercia: As you are adept with a soldering iron? I know you can operate a laser machine. Having a go at assembling a PC/laptop was one of the things I was thinking of doing in retirement and here I am 10 years (about) retired from full-time work and still haven’t done a lot of them and I don’t know how to use a soldering iron. Maybe I could learn. Since I had the problems with the gluten intolerance although I am now eating a balanced diet and keeping off the gluten, I still to get tired more quickly – no pulling all-nighters for me now though I used to be able to do that (admittedly I’d probably have to sleep late the next day if possible). I’m a bit like a small child now – take a nap or at least a rest now and then to recharge my batteries.

      I’ve soldered copper core wiring (because it’s an easy and free resource to find in my house with all of the defunct cables I have) for the purpose of building framing (ie. Glinda’s wand!) or to assemble support structures — but never for something nearly as practical or useful as electronics repair 🙂

      I wouldn’t say using a soldering iron is difficult though, especially if you practice a bit first to get use to the feel of the iron and get a sense of how the material you’re using to join melts. The most difficult part for me was because I was having to solder multiple connections on a single piece, when the piece heated up due to contact with the iron, my previously soldered connections would also loosen up due to the heat so I had to ensure I did a lot of clamping!

      But I don’t think this is such a problem in electronics repair. That would be a very, very useful skill to have!!

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    63. Adrianacandle: electronics repair

      *electronics assembly, not repair! Sorry, Dame of Mercia! I think I was reading into the skill since devices tremble when I come near due to my proclivity for breaking them -_- (living up to my “Tasha the Destroyer” moniker)….

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    64. Adrianacandle,

      Well electronics repair would be useful (when laptops play up – that sort of thing though I’d have to diagnose the problem first.

      I have a more pressing problem at the moment – the solenoid valve that works the on/off mains mechanism for my water supply is stuck in the off position. I’ve been out to stock up on large water bottles – if I have enough to wash myself and the crockery and cutlery and utensils and make a drink. I’ve stuck an old empty water bottle outside (it’s been raining all day today here though I know that is the reputation the UK has) to collect some water. I have texted a plumber who has done bits and bobs for me in the past but I doubt I’ll hear anything before Monday. There are some jobs it’s best to get a professional to do.

        Quote  Reply

    65. Dame of Mercia:
      Mango,

      I didn’t mind those changes so much; the one that jarred was making Ellaria into a vengeful harpy because Indira Verma’s interpretation of Ellaria in season 4 was more on a par with her book counterpart than season 5-7 Ellaria.

      SOmething I’m sure about is that Benioff and Weiss had a plan to expand Ellaria from her book role from get-go because there’s no way they would cast such well known actress like Indira Varma as a character who could have easily been cut from ASOS adaptation. Whether they did it right, it’s debatable but I’m sure Ellaria was never supposed to be this background character-only like she is in the novel when Indira Varma was cast.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Ten Bears,

      Unfortunately, there’s no one quote linking the three together but I have these up for consideration 🙂 Maybe you can take a sentence from a Needle-centric and Nymeria-centric quote and put it as a caption?

      The image itself is rather wistful, sort of melancholic…

      “No one,” she would answer, she who had been Arya of House Stark, Arya Underfoot, Arya Horseface. She had been Arry and Weasel too, and Squab and Salty, Nan the cupbearer, a grey mouse, a sheep, the ghost of Harrenhal . . . but not for true, not in her heart of hearts. In there she was Arya of Winterfell, the daughter of Lord Eddard Stark and Lady Catelyn, who had once had brothers named Robb and Bran and Rickon, a sister named Sansa, a direwolf called Nymeria, a half brother named Jon Snow. In there she was someone . . . but that was not the answer that he wanted.

      She stood on the end of the dock, pale and goosefleshed and shivering in the fog. In her hand, Needle seemed to whisper to her. Stick them with the pointy end, it said, and, don’t tell Sansa! Mikken’s mark was on the blade. It’s just a sword. If she needed a sword, there were a hundred under the temple. Needle was too small to be a proper sword, it was hardly more than a toy. She’d been a stupid little girl when Jon had it made for her. “It’s just a sword,” she said, aloud this time . . .

      . . . but it wasn’t.

      Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.

      She’d had a direwolf once, Nymeria, but she’d thrown rocks at her until she fled, to keep the queen from killing her. Could a direwolf kill a lion? she wondered.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Dame of Mercia: Well electronics repair would be useful (when laptops play up – that sort of thing though I’d have to diagnose the problem first.

      I have a more pressing problem at the moment – the solenoid valve that works the on/off mains mechanism for my water supply is stuck in the off position. I’ve been out to stock up on large water bottles – if I have enough to wash myself and the crockery and cutlery and utensils and make a drink. I’ve stuck an old empty water bottle outside (it’s been raining all day today here though I know that is the reputation the UK has) to collect some water. I have texted a plumber who has done bits and bobs for me in the past but I doubt I’ll hear anything before Monday. There are some jobs it’s best to get a professional to do.

      Oh, that is very tough 🙁 To be without running water for several days. I’d have a very rough time with that. I’m very sorry.

      Yeah, it sounds like it’d be best to get a professional for things like waterline issues. Damn, that’s tough 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    68. Adrianacandle: *electronics assembly, not repair! Sorry, Dame of Mercia! I think I was reading into the skill since devices tremble when I come near due to my proclivity for breaking them -_- (living up to my “Tasha the Destroyer” moniker)….

      • Ha ha! I’m picturing inanimate objects (electronic devices) coming to life and running away in fear, as if in the live action + animated remake of “Beauty & The Beast.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Nl_TCQXuw

      • I think today’s Musical Interlude shall be dedicated to…the Destroyer.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Ten Bears,

      • Ha ha! I’m picturing inanimate objects (electronic devices) coming to life and running away in fear, as if in the live action + animated remake of “Beauty & The Beast.”

      Yeah! That’d be be pretty accurate! XD When I start to get upset, I think I can hear my Macbook’s fan start to anxiously go into overdrive…

      Whilst the corpse of my former iPhone (February 5 2020 – July 14, 2020 — who knew grass wasn’t soft enough to cushion a phone’s “fall”?) lays nearby…

      • I think today’s Musical Interlude shall be dedicated to…the Destroyer.

      So honoured! 😭🙏

        Quote  Reply

    70. I agree that the hunting scene was weak and thin, on reflection. It stands in contrast to the series as a whole where attention to detail was exceptional. I remember wondering at the time how they were going to actually catch anything by traipsing through the woods with spears – and not exactly the physique and athleticism of Masai hunters. There should have been dogs and handlers, at least. Ironically they had these in abundance in the later brutal Ramsey Bolton scenes, such as when they run down the fleeing Tansy. And of course when Ramsey met his end.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Mr Derp,

      I loved the opening of season 7 and the entire episode. Beyond the Wall didn’t bother me I really enjoyed it. Spoils of war is an incredible episode. I loved Jon talking to Theon. The Bells from season 8 is my favorite episode of the entire series. Loved the Long Night I watched it with a big group of people and it was like she won the World cup when she got the kill. I liked the finale thought Cersei died in a very fitting way. I don’t think Jaimie had his arc ruined I found it to be very realistic. I actually think season 8 is paced much better than season 7. I liked many other things those are just a few standout moments for me.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Hey how about announcing the date of when “The Winds Of Winter” will be published, and read us another sample chapter…oh yeah…riiiight… that’s not going to happen anytime soon!

      By this metric, the next complaint will be his least favourite scene in “House Of The Dragon” (if that will ever see the light of day). And “A Dream Of Spring” will most definitely come out by 2100 and be finished by Brandon Sanderson’s grandson…

        Quote  Reply

    73. loco73,

      It’s never going to happen. Not much incentive for him to finish anymore. If there was a fire under his ass getting him to write faster, it was the prospect of the show overtaking him, and that happened around 5 years ago. Now, that fire has gone out.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      Well-known actors do sometimes perform cameo parts in productions.

      Farimer123,
      and loco73

      Well, I’ll never say never. There have been some writers who have carried on writing into their senior years – and written worthwhile material. Though it’s not like I’m waiting with my tongue hanging out for news of the publishing date of TWoW; I’ve not been all that keen on the preview chapters by and large (just my view, others are perfectly free to disagree).

      Adriana, where it comes to breaking things, I think if I had a bit more money in my piggy-bank (plus having an over 80 year old house that is in constant need of some repair or other which can be a drain) I would get one of those extra rugged laptops that people take up mountains or on safari because the laptop I had before the one I’m using now I dropped. The macbook I had was stolen in January – I think I’ve mentioned that before.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Dame of Mercia: Adriana, where it comes to breaking things, I think if I had a bit more money in my piggy-bank (plus having an over 80 year old house that is in constant need of some repair or other which can be a drain) I would get one of those extra rugged laptops that people take up mountains or on safari because the laptop I had before the one I’m using now I dropped. The macbook I had was stolen in January – I think I’ve mentioned that before.

      I believe you did — that really sucks, I’m really sorry 🙁 I don’t know what I’d do…

      I’ve had several protective cases for my mac but alas… T__T I just need to thwart my own destructive forces though because having to pay for repairs/a new (used) laptop or phone really really adds up!

      I think the worst was when, a few years ago — and completely and through my own stupidity — I lost an entire project I had been planning and prepping for a year. After the shoot was done, I was editing the photos and while I was doing so, I was bouncing up and down on a yoga ball with my headphones attached to my laptop and the external HD (on which the project was stored) was attached to my laptop. I was watching a funeral scene in Downton Abbey while bouncing and suddenly, I lost my balance, fell backward, and with me came the laptop and the external hard drive.

      The laptop was fine because it slid onto me but the external HD disconnected and fell to the floor. Because it wasn’t an SSD and was a traditional drive with moving parts, that was it. A year’s worth of work because not only did I fail to back up (!!!), I couldn’t stop bouncing…

        Quote  Reply

    76. We’re all different and I suppose we’ve all done different things during quarantine. I’ve attended a couple of meetings I attend anyway only during the lockdown they’ve been on Zoom rather than in person.

      I’ve sometimes had podcasts on in the background as I can do household chores (though I’ve let them mount up) that way without having to be sat in front of a screen. I’ve listened to The Paranoid Strain (about the history of conspiracy theories with a touch of humour) and American Hysteria (about crazy things in America generally) – both American podcasts. Then there is Mick West’s ‘Out of the Rabbit Hole’ – about people who have shaken off conspiracy theories. Of course I shouldn’t be overly conspiracy theory minded but when I was convalescing from the effects of the gluten intolerance I watched a lot of Loominarty videos (and the ones by the people who think anybody a little bit famous is secretly transgender). I know, silly me, don’t rub it in – and I’ll never get the time I spent watching those back and I’m already a senior citizen!

      I found a channel on YouTube recently called MJam- from London. It’s where someone reads books/stories – things like ‘The Secret Garden’, Miss Marple and Hercule Poirot stories and Sherlock Holmes. It’s just the one voice though he does vary his speech for the different characters. I liked it – it’s on the subtle side and out of print books are used because otherwise the reader gets the copyright police after him. Whether the presentation would suit younger audiences I don’t know. I think if I were looking for an alias to use on the ‘net now I might use ‘Okay Boomer’ but I’ll stick with the Dame here.

      About the hunt scene, I always assumed that the dogs and horses were behind some trees in a clearing and that Robert and his group had gone into a thicket which would have been difficult to penetrate. In retrospect, maybe a few dogs wouldn’t have been out of place.

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    77. Totally off topic but I really don’t understand how the YouTube algorithm works. True this didn’t flash on my screen but in the recommended list of videos was an advertisement for a site something like ‘findasugardaddy.com’ – I’m in my early 70s FFS!!!

        Quote  Reply

    78. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      Your opinion on show Sansa is almost unique! I meant to respond but was delayed… 🙄 Most people hate her. She’s definitely not my favorite from the show, but I think the show suffered in seasons 7 and 8 from the lack of meaningful (or consistent) story for its female characters -not only Sansa, but Gilly, Yara, Missandei, Cersei, even Daenerys, they were all afflicted by at least some writing awkwardness.
      But your post got me thinking!
      The best character in the show for me is Cersei. She’s beautiful, defiant, loves her children, wielding power and Jamie (in that order) and is unscrupulous. She outsmarted Robert, Ned and the Tyrells. Her humiliation didn’t break her, it only made her more cunning. And although she avoids facing the trauma of losing all her children, she still has the courage to look forward to the future with Jamie. Even in the show she was still young and perhaps she’d have other children –as she did. I love it how she tried to be on top of the situation even until the very end and merited almost a martyr’s end, even if her role in season 8 was very limited.

      That said, book Cersei is awful, mostly because of her pettiness and misogyny. But if the book goes anywhere near the show (like, Cersei allying with Euron against FAegon and Daenerys) there’s potential!
      I think my favorite book character is Jon. Tyrion is also very interesting but he’s a villain and I hated him from page 1. (not very sure though; the PoVs blur the waters; it’s like observing other characters from inside a PoV’s personal bubble)

        Quote  Reply

    79. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      About your proposed two-part discussion topic, i.e.:

      …how everyone got into the show! And maybe the first scene that really grabbed you.”

      I got to thinking of a possible additional third (sub)-topic unique to GoT. For want of a better description: Pleasant surprises or subverted expectations that were earned (and not just thrown in for shock value).

      – For example, much has been written about GoT killing off the (presumptive) main character played by the marquee actor Sean Bean in the first season, shocking clueless non-book reading fans (like me 🤢)who assumed that there was no way they’d actually behead the hero right in front of his two little girls! No way. Right? Surely someone was going to swoop in and save him at the last minute? No? No!!!!Ackkkkk!!!!– And then, the expected “son avenges slain father” arc was cut short when they killed off Robb. JFC! And his mama too??? – Both were “earned” in the sense that characters were “good guys” but nevertheless made boneheaded decisions that doomed them.

      – On the flip side, there were “villains” who weren’t all bad after all – like the pompous f*ckwit who pushed a little kid out of a window!

      – For me, the biggest and best surprise… [to be continued…]

      To finish up (from two nights ago) my possible third additional subtopic to Adrianacandle’s proposed two-part discussion topic…

      • In the general category of villains who weren’t all bad and heroes who were flawed, I would not want to neglect the wonderfully complex character of Theon Greyjoy and his portrayal by Alfie Allen. However, since Petra authored this post and is the resident expert on all things Theon, I would not feel qualified to comment on the yin and yang of Theon or his book counterpart – other than to note that it seemed to me from comments here that most book readers really liked Theon’s chapters.

      • For me, the biggest and best surprise was the emergence of Sandor Clegane as my co-favorite character.
      When I started watching the show I figured the Hound would be a one-note, two-dimensional secondary or tertiary side character: the brutal bodyguard of weenie Joffrey.
      In fact, it’s my understanding the showrunners intentionally downplayed Sandor’s (eventual) importance early on, e.g., by giving the telling of the Gregor-Sandor burning story to Littlefinger in S1. (I believe Rory McCann explained this in a Thronecast interview.) I’m glad they kept the vulnerable side of Sandor under wraps early on and only let it peek through briefly, e.g., in S4e7 and S7e2, and finally in S8e5.

      I never would have expected that the sport-killing thug from S1 would wind up being the one character who could make me guffaw and make my eyes water.

      Go figure…

      (Should I commend Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss for their brilliant presentation of the story of Sandor Clegane, for which I’ll always be grateful?)

        Quote  Reply

    80. Ten Bears: For me, the biggest and best surprise was the emergence of Sandor Clegane as my co-favorite character.
      When I started watching the show I figured the Hound would be a one-note, two-dimensional secondary or tertiary side character: the brutal bodyguard of weenie Joffrey.
      In fact, it’s my understanding the showrunners intentionally downplayed Sandor’s (eventual) importance early on, e.g., by giving the telling of the Gregor-Sandor burning story to Littlefinger in S1. (I believe Rory McCann explained this in a Thronecast interview.) I’m glad they kept the vulnerable side of Sandor under wraps early on and only let it peek through briefly, e.g., in S4e7 and S7e2, and finally in S8e5.

      I never would have expected that the sport-killing thug from S1 would wind up being the one character who could make me guffaw and make my eyes water.

      Go figure…

      (Should I commend Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss for their brilliant presentation of the story of Sandor Clegane, for which I’ll always be grateful?)

      After I wrote my response to you, I had considered Sandor after posting but then I thought if he was your choice, you’d be able to write about him with more eloquence than I could and I was right! 😉

      (And thanks for those insights from Rory McCann!)

      Nice write-up!!

        Quote  Reply

    81. Adrianacandle,

      Although this the Rory McCann pre-S4 Thronecast interview, it’s NOT where he describes how the showrunners held back on revealing the Hound’s backstory, e.g., by giving the dialogue to LF in S1. It must be in another interview. I’ll try to find it.

      However, this 7:40 long interview is still entertaining to watch.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkBJz87aTKA


      Some highlights (for me):

      Q: At 2:04 – “Does he care for her [Arya]?”

      Q: at 2:45: “How is the relationship between the Hound and Arya going to develop this series [season]”?

      RM, at 4:34: “He tells his own story this season…”

      ————-
      Season 4 did not disappoint. It was my favorite season, and the Hound-Arya road trip was my favorite storyline in the entire show.
      It’s enjoyable for me to revisit Rory McCann’s commentary before the season aired.

        Quote  Reply

    82. Ten Bears: Although this the Rory McCann pre-S4 Thronecast interview, it’s NOT where he describes how the showrunners held back on revealing the Hound’s backstory, e.g., by giving the dialogue to LF in S1. It must be in another interview. I’ll try to find it.

      However, this 7:40 long interview is still entertaining to watch.

      [link]

      This interview was great! I had never seen it before! Loved his answers (listened for your highlights!) and I actually laughed out loud when RM said this:

      {The Red Wedding] was one of the worst weddings the Hound’s ever been to. […] Really bad wedding. Really bad… The band was really good but that was it.

      😆

      (Also, one of the worst wedding’s the Hound’s ever been to?! ;D)

        Quote  Reply

    83. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      Thank you for prompting me to re-think Sansa as a character in Game of Thrones. When I next do a re-watch, I’ll be sure to watch for everything you noted.

      As I mentioned, I was somewhat put off by the audience being told about Sansa’s character progression, instead of being shown it. Given your remarks, I’ll watch with a more open mind next time. Thank you!

        Quote  Reply

    84. Farimer123,
      and loco73

      Well, I’ll never say never. There have been some writers who have carried on writing into their senior years – and written worthwhile material.”

      Yes…and we call those writers Stephen King…🤪🤓😂👍👍

        Quote  Reply

    85. loco73,

      I was thinking of PD James and James A Michener but I’m sure there are others. I’ve not read much S King – not really a horror fan. That’s not meant as a critucism – just explaining my tastes. Margaret Attwood brought out a new book relatively recently though I have to plead guilty to being unfamiliar with her work.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Efi:
      Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      Your opinion on show Sansa is almost unique! I meant to respond but was delayed… Most people hate her. She’s definitely not my favorite from the show, but I think the show suffered in seasons 7 and 8 from the lack of meaningful (or consistent) story for its female characters -not only Sansa, but Gilly, Yara, Missandei, Cersei, even Daenerys, they were all afflicted by at least some writing awkwardness.
      But your post got me thinking!
      The best character in the show for me is Cersei. She’s beautiful, defiant, loves her children, wielding power and Jamie (in that order) and is unscrupulous. She outsmarted Robert, Ned and the Tyrells. Her humiliation didn’t break her, it only made her more cunning. And although she avoids facing the trauma of losing all her children, she still has the courage to look forward to the future with Jamie. Even in the show she was still young and perhaps she’d have other children –as she did. I love it how she tried to be on top of the situation even until the very end and merited almost a martyr’s end, even if her role in season 8 was very limited.

      That said, book Cersei is awful, mostly because of her pettiness and misogyny. But if the book goes anywhere near the show (like, Cersei allying with Euron against FAegon and Daenerys) there’s potential!
      I think my favorite book character is Jon. Tyrion is also very interesting but he’s a villain and I hated him from page 1. (not very sure though; the PoVs blur the waters; it’s like observing other characters from inside a PoV’s personal bubble)

      Yes, I know Sansa is not among most popular GoT characters and I think that’s the reason why I feel even more strongly about her. It certainly didn’t take away my like for her. I do know several people who like her… such as my coworker Nina, my highschool friend Lovro and my LOSTie friends Stacey, Irene, Ege and Ryan (the interesting thing about him is that he is a big Dany fan but he also really loved The Bells). On other hand, Dany was one of the most beloved GoT characters but I was never really fond of her. More accurately, I rooted for her personal growth, for her development into strong woman, but I was never aboard the root train for her to conquer Westeros and rule Seven Kingdoms and I have several reasons why I feel so.

      As I said above, I personally have more issues with her portrayal in S3 than in late seasons and I think the issue stems from the fact that Sansa would have 2-3 scenes in total in S3 if they made a carbon adaptation of first half of ASOS as she disappears for 400 pages after her wedding to Tyrion. I’m still glad they gave her more scenes in that season. Was there room for improvement? Definitely. And I think I could say that for most characters in big ensemble cast shows… there’s always a period where I feel a certain character could be used more or in better way but I guess that’s why writing/production job isn’t easy. But even with all issues regarding writing/production/screentime, it never changed how I felt about her as a character, her as a person. She always remained one my favorites (and later my favorite).

      And regarding her in book 1/S1 (the only season when I wasn’t fond of her as a person), I had this feeling that there’s much more to her character than just being a spoiled child… especially that she has a potential for growth. I don’t know how many of you here watched LOST but I watched LOST for first time on same year as GoT S1 aired and I had very similar thoughts about Sansa as I had for Shannon in LOST… a character who was (and still is) more than often dismissed as bratty and spoiled and useless in LOST but I well remember I had this subtle feeling from very early on that there’s more to her and halfway through LOST S1, I realized I was right regarding my subtle fondness and I “defend” this character up to this day (not among my very favorite ones, but still missing my top 10 by one spot). With Sansa, it was a similar story for me.

      As for my other favorite GoT characters, the entire Lannister clan (Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, Tywin) is definitely up there regarding their screen presence. These four always nailed it when they occupied the screen and their dynamics were awesome. (Show) Cersei is excellent to me as antagonist and some sort of protagonist in her own story. I love how they didn’t go some full Mad Queen route with her, despite fans expecting that after S6, but rather kept signs of her human side through entire story. And while this is unpopular opinion, I love that her death was subtle and that she died scared and vulnerable, instead of getting some dramatic death. I think it was a fitting ending for her, really this feeling that she lost, while showing some human side in her (so she’s not in same league as Joffrey or Ramsay or such). I’m very glad the writers decided to go this complex route with her when I look at her overall story.

      Among the rest of my favorites, I really liked Jon too… always trying to be this good guy, trying to do what he believed was right for the greater good. Even though his actions had consequences, I think his heart was always in right place. And those more supporting main-cast characters like Jorah and Sandor… another two characters that are among my favorites when I look at entire story. All in all, I think GoT had really amazing cast overall, amazing character ensemble. From biggest roles to smaller supporting roles like Olenna and maester Luwin and ser Alliser and such, characters remained so damn memorable to me and I could “feel” every scene I watched. And combined with this grand storytelling and amazing visuals, the show is definitely one of my top 3 favorites.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Season 8 had some flaws but I agree the pacing (and in my opinion the overall quality) was way better than S7 (which for me is probably ranking alongside S5 and S2 as the lower end of quality on the show). I would not say S7 was bad but again in my opinion Beyond the Wall was one of the weakest ever episodes on the show because of the writing and direction as much as anything.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Jon Snowed,

      Dragonstone
      Stormborn
      The Queen’s Justice
      The Spoils of War
      Eastwatch
      Beyond the Wall
      The Dragon and the Wolf
      Winterfell
      A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms
      The Long Night

      Pretend for a moment that those ten episodes were all aired together as one standard-length season (which was actually the original intent). Now, how would you rank it compared to the previous six 10-episode seasons?

        Quote  Reply

    89. Adrianacandle,

      ”This interview was great! I had never seen it before! Loved his answers (listened for your highlights!) and I actually laughed out loud when RM said this:

      {The Red Wedding] was one of the worst weddings the Hound’s ever been to. […] Really bad wedding. Really bad… The band was really good but that was it.

      😆

      (Also, one of the worst wedding’s the Hound’s ever been to?! ;D)“

      • Though I had seen this interview some time ago, so much time has passed that it was like watching it for the first time. His relatively spoiler-free forecasts about the Hound’s storyline in the upcoming season [S4] and expected fan reaction turned out to be understatements.

      I say that NOT because I am a Sandorista. [Another commenter came up with that term; I forget who it was.]

      It’s just that so many of the Hound’s S4 lines have made their way into the pop culture lexicon, and I believe the casual, non-book reading fandom went nuts over Sandor/Rory McCann after the last 9 1/2 minutes of “Two Swords”… everything from “Little lady wants a pony?” to Little lady gets a pony, and everything in between, especially Arya and Sandor trading insults during their horseback ride (“Little lady wants away from your stench;” “You’re not very smart, are you?”); snarking about naming swords and Lommy in the bushes outside the inn; Sandor demanding chickens and finally losing patience with Polliver the talker; Sandor & Arya teaming up to take out Polliver and his predatory goons; and of course Arya reclaiming Needle and performing a tracheotomy on Polliver.

      Ah… such fond memories!

        Quote  Reply

    90. Ten Bears: and of course Arya reclaiming Needle and performing a tracheotomy on Polliver.

      LOL! But I don’t think this emergency tracheotomy did much to help Polliver breathe 😉

      I think this is one of my favourite lines from the Hound:

      The Hound: Of course you named your sword.
      Arya: Lots of people name their swords.
      The Hound: Lots of c*nts.

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    91. Ten Bears,

      Since it’s difficult to find a clip with the entire concluding segment of S4e1, I guess I should post it here for anyone who’s interested in a rewatch:

      S4e1 “Two Swords” last 9:54

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwQAZ7_SjgU

      As much as I enjoy that clip from start to finish, other S4 Arya – Sandor extended scenes are also on my Perpetual Rewatch Loop, including:
      – S4e3, Rabbit Stew Sally and her father encounter Sandor & Arya (beginning with the dynamic duo quibbling over a map shop; ending with “Dead men don’t need silver,” and “You’re the worst sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms!”)
      – S4e5? Sandor teaching harsh lesson about fighting, e.g., why Meryn F*cking Trant was able to kill Syrio Forel.
      – S4e7, Euthanizing the dying farmer (“That’s where the heart is”), impaling Rorge; and – best of all – Sandor dropping his facade and telling Arya how Gregor burned him when he was a boy (“The pain was bad. The smell was worse. But the worst thing was that it was my brother who did it, and my father” [who protected him], “told everyone my bedding caught fire.”)
      – S4e8, The bloody Hound and his traveling companion Arya Stark talk shop on their way to the Bloody Gate, concluding with Arya hysterically laughing after learning Lysa died three days ago [so no ransom $ for Sandor].
      – S4e10, Oh geez! Sandor fighting to the (near-) death to protect Arya, ending with “Remember where the heart is?” – and conflicted Arya’s refusal to accede to Sandor’s pleading “Kill me! Kill me! Kill me!”

      Sorry for going off on this tangent. Couldn’t help it. 🙂

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    92. Farimer123:
      Jon Snowed,

      Dragonstone
      Stormborn
      The Queen’s Justice
      The Spoils of War
      Eastwatch
      Beyond the Wall
      The Dragon and the Wolf
      Winterfell
      A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms
      The Long Night

      Pretend for a moment that those ten episodes were all aired together as one standard-length season (which was actually the original intent). Now, how would you rank it compared to the previous six 10-episode seasons?

      Lol, you get so defensive.

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    93. Ten Bears,

      Oooooh, is this about how Trump, Melania Trump, and others who attended the announcement for Amy Coney Barrett’s nomination to the Supreme Court… now have covid?

        Quote  Reply

    94. Adrianacandle,

      …and ANOTHER sycophant just joined the 🦠➕ roster. Press secretary, apparently.
      Instead of “Hail to the Chief,” the official White House theme song should be “The Raynes of Castamere.”

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    95. Mr Derp,

      You misunderstand me. I wasn’t trying to be defensive; I was simply asking this fellow commentator to engage in a hypothetical scenario. It’s true though, that these 13 episodes were originally ordered together, then a few months later they were split into two seasons.

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    96. Dame of Mercia:
      loco73,

      I was thinking of PD James and James A Michener but I’m sure there are others.I’ve not read much S King – not really a horror fan. That’s not meant as a critucism – just explaining my tastes.Margaret Attwood brought out a new book relatively recently though I have to plead guilty to being unfamiliar with her work.

      Uhhhh love PD James! “Children Of Men” is one of my favourite books…and a damn good movie from Alfonso Cuarón!

        Quote  Reply

    97. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      What I like about Sansa as a character is that she is a constant force of quiet resistance, and this is obvious both in the books and the show. She is very feminine, girly, likes needles and silks and embroideries and all that is good, ideal and romantic about knights and tourneys, and still finds the courage to stand up and make a difference in a very quiet way, un-dynamic (if I may say so), even polite and kind, and manages to survive in an environment of constant terror, where a wrong reply or a wrong glance could cost her life. No matter what happens to her, Sansa remains a girl and does not lose her kindness (if I am ever queen I will make them love me), although she does have death wishes which she wisely does not disclose -note ST’s acting when she was taken to “stare” at her father’s head; she definitely fleshed out book Sansa’s thoughts to give a little push to Joffrey! (one of my favorite Sansa scenes) [to add from the books that she does not kneel to Tyrion at their marriage]. So, yeah, Sansa for me is a quiet force of resistance.
      I think that the show managed to portray much of this, because it also rests on events; her plea with Joffrey to save her father; her effort to save Dontos; her spilling the beans to Olenna about Joffrey. ST’s acting is also very intuitive, she manages to deliver things without actually speaking.
      But the show also deviated a lot from the book. There was no effort to portray her estrangement from her father because of the Trident incident; Eddard never talks to her the way he speaks to Arya, so Sansa is kept in the dark, which causes her to go to Cersei; they gave her lines that belonged to Catelyn (marrying a prince is all I ever wanted); discarded how she was always rendered responsible for Arya although she is only 12.
      All that made her look ambitious and spoiled to the audience, while her chapters are heartbreaking -her feeling that she is always the one getting punished (please, I’ll be good, I’ll be good, I’m a good girl) is crushing.
      Perhaps the reasoning behind those choices was to spice it up, especially with regard to her relationship with Arya (develop a conflict that would continue when they found each other again), or to the great overturn that was Ned’s beheading -getting prepared for becoming a queen and becoming a hostage instead. But Sansa has very little material in AGoT in general (she has no common scenes with Cersei or Joffrey after the Trident), and they did a good job with the queen foreshadowing.
      Personally, while I got the impression from the show that she was spoiled, the incident at the Trident was shocking to me, and when it was over I was like, phew, good thing I’m not living in the middle ages! It alerted me though that there was more to Sansa’s story than met the eye. I think that in the end I was literally with Sansa at the steps of the Sept of Baelor waiting for her father’s pardon, waiting to hug him… and screaming while seeing him being executed instead (completely living the moment, or my nails, lol). And then I experienced the viewer’s awe and wonder: wtf is going on with this show?

      [for not getting me wrong, it was Bran’s fall from the tower that got me hooked to GoT and that was in ep. 1]

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    98. Efi: But Sansa has very little material in AGoT in general (she has no common scenes with Cersei or Joffrey after the Trident)

      Do you mean scenes regarding the incident at the Trident after it occurred or scenes with Sansa and Cersei in general after it occurred?

      After the Trident, (as you mentioned in your post), Sansa does have a scene with Cersei in which she reveals Ned’s plans to take herself and Arya back to Winterfell (Sansa VI) while interacting with Joffrey (in Sansa II) at a post-tourney feast. In that chapter, Sansa decides not to blame Joffrey for Lady’s death but Arya instead.

      I think the Sansa and Arya book 1 relationship is worse in the books and has been kind of softened in the show. There were some pretty cruel remarks made, remarks that didn’t make it to the show. I think we get more insight into how Sansa feels Ned doesn’t discipline Arya enough and favours Arya but I don’t think I’d call that estrangement. I got the impression Sansa is frustrated with how much leeway Ned gives Arya, especially when it counters everything Sansa has been taught herself.

      I’m probably missing a passage but I don’t remember when Sansa is rendered responsible for Arya? I know the septa asked her to remind Arya to dress appropriately, over which Sansa has doubts she will and hopes Arya won’t be too embarrassing. Of course, Sansa finds Arya covered in mud, not wanting to see the queen, and Sansa leaves without her but I don’t recall that Sansa is ever held responsible for this? (Although, I could be missing a passage!)

      For me, Sansa is acting very much like an ordinary girl who lived a sheltered life when she’s left alone in the lion’s den of King’s Landing. Here, she’s caught in a terrible, unimaginable situation nothing could have prepared her for and she must do what she can to survive as she starts to realize fairytales are just that — fairytales — while her nightmares become realities. But as of AFFC, I’d say Sansa is still very much a pawn. It’s really only in that book, I think Sansa is just beginning to see what’s going on around her and is having doubts about LF, with one side of herself arguing against the other in regard to his motives. I think it’s perhaps at this point in AFFC, she may be beginning to come into this quote from GRRM:

      She is beginning to at least try to understand how she can play the game of thrones and be not a piece, but a player. With her own goals, and moving other pieces around. And she’s not a warrior like Robb, Jon Snow. She’s not even a wild child like Arya. She can’t fight with swords, axes. She can’t raise armies. But she has her wits! Same as Littlefinger has.

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    99. My least favorite scenes (I’ll list the scenes themselves, not what they mean to the global narrative)

      2×04 Conversation between Margaery and Baelish: that part about the mathematicians is weird (Does Westeros have formal mathematicians?)

      2×06 Conversation between Jon and Qhorin: their relationship could be better portrayed.

      4×03 Jaime and Cersei and the sept: a scene that was portrayed in a unnecessary way. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some miscommunication between writers, director and actors. After the reactions, nobody was able to clarify if it was a rape or not. For me, it was. I don’t know if they meant it, however. The scene didn’t have any impact in Jaime and Cersei relationship.

      4×06 Yara tries to rescue Theon and fails: a weird scene from the beginning to the end. One of the worst scenes of the whole show in an episode known by Tyrion’s trial.

      4×08 Beetles: not necessarily bad, but too long.

      5×06 Fight in the Water Gardens: it looks almost amateur in comparison to the standard set by GoT in other fights.

      6×07 Arya being stabbed: it doesn’t make sense that someone with her skills was stabbed so easily. She looked like an happy tourist in Venice. LOL.

      7×03 Tyrion and Varys preventing Daenerys from destroying Euron’s fleet in open sea: after losing allies, Daenerys wants to use her dragons to destroy the enemy’s fleet. It seems a sensible idea: she could seriously weaken her enemy without any loss of life on her part. Euron didn’t have any weapons to fight back at the time. Tyrion and Varys dismiss her. It isn’t clever on their part. I like that episode, but it would be better if that scene was deleted.

      7×05 The idea of the wight hunt: contrived.

      8×04 Bronn arrive at Winterfell like a champ and threatens Jaime and Tyrion

      8×05 Jaime and Euron fight

      8×06 The dragonpit and the small council are lackluster in comparison to similar scenes before. The small council scene at 3×03 is miles better. The dragonpit scene in 7×07 too.

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    100. Tiago,

      I’ve only seen him in a few things as well and he’s never stood out for me, but other people seem excited. He’s supposedly a very good actor and I have no reason to doubt the casting team.

        Quote  Reply

    101. Young Dragon:
      Adrianacandle,

      No problem, though I didn’t really break the news. Sue threw up her article at around the same time.

      It was thanks to your link that this first bit of excitement sparked in me about this casting piece! So I thank you! 🙂 🙂 🙂 I’m glad there’s an article about it!

        Quote  Reply

    102. Fireblood87,

      That was my first thought, but Martin is actually discussing Dany’s marriage night. The thirteen year old young lady who was traded away to a war lord by her psychopathic brother gives her “consent” in the books, but doesn’t in the show.

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    103. Young Dragon,

      Iwm going to have to disagree but I understand where people can say it’s not rape in the books I just don’t agree. She is a terrified little girl in the books and it’s pretty much rape in my opinion and I’m glad the show just decided to make it rape and not what in my opinion is a little girl saying yes because she is terrified and has no other option. I actually cringe at some of the ways George writes sex in general in the books.

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    104. Young Dragon:
      Ten Bears,

      Not the rape scene I was expecting.

      Yeah. me neither. I should have read the article first before posting the link. Sorry.
      GRRM’s purported dissatisfaction with the
      differences between book! vs. show! Dany & Khal Drogo rape/not rape wasn’t that earth-shattering.

      By the way, I did get the print edition of the EW edition with excerpts from Hibberd’s book about the problematic pilot episode. There were a few quips and tidbits I might try to quote…

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    105. Adrianacandle: YAY! 😀 Look forward to it!

      I have not forgotten about the personalized Musical Interlude. The rabbit hole to get there commences with my October 1, 2020, 7:58 pm (prior) Musical Interlude featuring Chrissie Hynde and the Pretenders, and then overlaps with Ray Davies and The Kinks, spanning 55 years. As you know, I try to find the highest quality recordings and most watchable live performances. It’s not always so easy to choose. Bear with me…

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    106. Fireblood87:
      Ten Bears,

      I should have the digital copy of the entire book tomorrow.

      Ah good! The EW magazine’s excerpts had a lot of quips from cast and crew about the pilot, e.g., wondering why the f*ck they traveled all the way to Croatia to film scenes they could’ve shot in a parking lot in Burbank.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Ten Bears: I have not forgotten about the personalized Musical Interlude. The rabbit hole to get there commences with my October 1, 2020, 7:58 pm (prior) Musical Interlude featuring Chrissie Hynde and the Pretenders, and then overlaps with Ray Davies and The Kinks, spanning 55 years. As you know, I try to find the highest quality recordings and most watchable live performances. It’s not always so easy to choose. Bear with me…

      I’m just honoured The Destroyer proved to be an inspiration! XD I look forward to whatever you put together!

      (Tonight, said figure responsible for nicknaming me The Destroyer asked if I had come back from “a feed”… observing my raspberry Crystal Light stained lips, a joke he and my former boss came up with together years ago and still causes them to chortle… and once, in the atrium of my art school where it echoed and echoed… Dads and bosses….)

      I think I’m going to try and crash now for a few hours while watching The Purge! 🎃(With Lena Headey)!

        Quote  Reply

    108. Adrianacandle:

      I think the Sansa and Arya book 1 relationship is worse in the books and has been kind of softened in the show. There were some pretty cruel remarks made, remarks that didn’t make it to the show. I think we get more insight into how Sansa feels Ned doesn’t discipline Arya enough and favours Arya but I don’t think I’d call that estrangement. I got the impression Sansa is frustrated with how much leeway Ned gives Arya, especially when it counters everything Sansa has been taught herself.

      Efi,

      I agree that Sansa and Arya have much worse relationship in the books and I also think that if Sansa was portrayed exactly how she was in book 1 with same lines, I imagine there would be even more intense dislike for her from audience. Some of her lines in the novel are outright cruel or very bully-like. Especially the one “They should have killed YOU instead of Lady!” and also when Cersei orders Lady executed, Sansa keeps mentioning Arya in her objections… in the show, she never actually mentions Arya in that scene and the only time she mentions the incident was when talking to septa Mordane and in that moment she seems to be more angry at her father rather than Arya. Also, the show added the scene of Joffrey apologizing to her so she actually has some basis to like him again… in the books, it just spontaneously happens because she decides to put entire blame on Arya rather than Joffrey. And let’s not forget the infamous “running off to Cersei” scene from the books which in my opinion the show cleverly omitted because I imagine people would be blaming Sansa for Ned’s arrest and subsequent death (even though I doubt how much effect Sansa’s decision actually had as it was Littlefinger who betrayed him in first place).

      So overall, I think the show actually did Sansa’s character a bit of favor by omitting some of her lowest moments in book 1. I’m personally more of a visual person than reading person (although I like reading too) so that could be a reason why I’m personally way more invested in TV show than in novels. I do think the constant inner monologue in the novels makes a big difference regarding how story is percepted between the two media… and for me personally, the inner monologue in the books is almost burdening to me at times because it’s almost always melancholic, depressing or very self-loathing and as I’m stuck in character’s head, I can’t even “look” at the story from this grand perspective. And we’re limited to POV characters so many characters appear way less on page than they do on TV. That’s why I’ve personally always been in favor of TV show because I could way more attach to the story as a whole there. But of course, I imagine someone else can feel the opposite.

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    109. Adrianacandle,

      I don’t think that the Arya-Sansa relationship is underdeveloped in the show. In the books it’s very complex and there’s lots of sides to it, which was very difficult -and perhaps they had no interest in- to portray it in the show. So in the show it’s simply different, more superficial, perhaps because they developed Sansa’s relationship with Cersei and Joffrey, which almost does not exist in the books. The scenes that you mention is 1) with Joffrey during the tournament, with barely any dialog, and 2) with Cersei for saying goodbye, also without dialog, details, and only in retrospect. Since Cersei is not a PoV yet, we do not see her thoughts about Sansa, or her instructing Joffrey how to treat his lady, or Joffrey trying to gain Sansa’s trust, unlike the show.

      Sansa’s PoV is very tricky; she deflects the guilt of her father and the king to Cersei and Arya, because she knows she can’t blame the king (for obvious reasons) or her father (because she loves him). She also knows that Joffrey is her husband-to-be so she can’t blame him either, since women are trained to not question, not accuse and suffer whatever their husbands say and do without protesting. (cf. Catelyn) After the tourney, Sansa comes to embrace the “official” version of events and blames the butcher’s boy for attacking Joffrey, while in reality it was Arya who hit him on the head. The real events are wiped out of her memory, because they are too traumatic to remember as they were.
      Later, Sansa feeling vulnerable as people of her own house have gone after Clegane, Arya accuses Jamie for starting everything (which is only partly true). This causes Sansa’s haughty attitude and her outburst “it should have been you” with Arya destroying Sansa’s silk dress which was a gift from the queen (a scene that was transferred out of context in the show in ep.1). Sansa is punished for her bratty attitude and walks away crying, while Arya is in reality the one who initiates the fight as she is unable to realize again Sansa’s position; the Lannisters are now her kin by betrothal, and in addition they hold all power in the city and the realm, but none of that ever mattered to Arya.
      Later Sansa is called to come down because their father wants them both, and we see how well trained she is to pretend that nothing happened and that she is alright, because that’s what female training in Westeros is all about. To Sansa, her father’s decision to send them back to WF is a punishment. While her sister gets what she wants, training with a master and to return to WF, Sansa is once again ignored, her life turning upside down again (she didn’t ask to be brought to KL as the prince’s betrothed, it was her mother’s design), shut down, dismissed without explanation. In all this it’s heartbreaking that the initial “she hasn’t done anything, she’s good, I’ll make her be good” with regard to Lady has turned into “I haven’t done anything, I’ll be good” within two chapters only. It’s very complex but it’s masterful writing from Martin. This is Sansa’s bubble; she feels that her own family ignores her and trains herself to think that Cersei and Joffrey are in reality good people.

      As an elder sibling, Sansa is also charged with looking after Arya. This didn’t start at the Trident apparently, or it wouldn’t have happened at all -perhaps the “don’t tell Sansa” has something to do with it. The Trident incident manifests in the most cruel way what might happen with Arya’s negligent training. Granted, Arya is a willful and stubborn child, but Sansa shouldn’t be the one to teach Arya discipline, because she has no authority over her, she’s only two years older; she shouldn’t be the one to find her, bring her back or dress her. Arya has brought Ned in a difficult position more than once in the first book, and it’s Ned’s and Catelyn’s fault who who were too indulgent.
      All this makes up very subtle nuancing; granted, it’s a complicated sibling relationship like any other, but there’s more to it than sibling jealousy and female antagonism.

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    110. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      I don’t think it would have made things better for Sansa’s perception by the audience if more scenes had been included either. As I argue in my reply to Adriana the relationship is very complex and nuanced.
      But there’s also some misconceptions by the audience entangled in what we’re discussing too.
      The audience believes that Sansa lied for freeing Joffrey of the blame, while she only said she didn’t remember. They keep forgetting that Arya had already told the truth, so Sansa saying once (not repeatedly) “it was Nymeria, Arya did it” when she herself stood to be punished does not mean anything for the grander scheme of things. But the trick here is not who spelled the truth -because they had Joffrey’s version, and they had the truth from Arya- it’s the power imbalance: Robert, Cersei and Joffrey are the royal family. Mycah, Arya and Sansa, and Ned, are not. So who is gonna take the blame? Granted, the audience does not think that much. But I believe that even in the show this aspect was there. I hadn’t read the books back then, I didn’t need them for my estimate, but I am sure that many saw this the same way.

      As for Sansa’s “running off to Cersei”, it wasn’t exactly “running off” since she only went there the last minute on the morning of their departure. Ned’s council and Sansa speaking with Cersei happen at the same time, immediately after breakfast (it’s not like Cersei was warned days in advance; this is the morning of Robert’s death and Sansa doesn’t even know that the king is dead, because, once again, nobody told her).

      “She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her father”.

      Sansa has reached the point where she doesn’t listen to her father anymore. But it is a long series of events, neglect and dismissal bordering on indifference on Ned’s part that led Sansa to this defiance. The result of doing that was imo even more catastrophic than Arya’s escaping Septa Mordane at the Trident -because in addition Sansa has no idea about what’s at stake here and about her father’s games (just like Arya is defiant of the social relations in Westeros). Traumatized by the events of the past, Ned puts weight on the safety of children. He spelled out his conspiracy against Cersei on his own. This is another thing that the audience blatantly ignores; since he told the truth, he put Cersei on her guard which resulted in his friend’s death and endangering his own children’s lives. Of course Cersei wouldn’t just let things evolve after her husband died, Sansa or no Sansa. But she cleverly used that against Sansa when she needed her cooperation to write the letters.
      Sansa is bratty too, she does speak her mind and there is snark, haughtiness and defiance when she speaks (more from ACoK onwards) but she didn’t tell Cersei for snitching on her father; an authority figure was her last resort for her life to not be turned upside down just because -that was Ned’s excuse, but Ned by that time had lost all credibility with his daughter.
      So I think too that since all that wasn’t clear in the show, they did well to exclude the “running to Cersei” scene from the books.

      As for books-to-show, luckily the show ending helped me once and for all to decide that these two are different; I don’t expect from the show what’s in the book anymore -so much is missing that it’s pointless. D&D did their own jobs, Martin is doing his.

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    111. Efi,

      As an elder sibling, Sansa is also charged with looking after Arya. This didn’t start at the Trident apparently, or it wouldn’t have happened at all -perhaps the “don’t tell Sansa” has something to do with it. The Trident incident manifests in the most cruel way what might happen with Arya’s negligent training. Granted, Arya is a willful and stubborn child, but Sansa shouldn’t be the one to teach Arya discipline, because she has no authority over her, she’s only two years older; she shouldn’t be the one to find her, bring her back or dress her. Arya has brought Ned in a difficult position more than once in the first book, and it’s Ned’s and Catelyn’s fault who who were too indulgent.

      I don’t see any indication that Sansa is responsible for teaching Arya discipline or expected to keep Arya in line though. Or where she is punished for doing so. Sometimes, Sansa tries to tell Arya what to do but that doesn’t come from Sansa being expected to discipline Arya, that comes from Sansa wanting Arya to conform to social standards. However, nobody’s putting that responsibility onto Sansa.

      The scenes that you mention is 1) with Joffrey during the tournament, with barely any dialog, and 2) with Cersei for saying goodbye, also without dialog, details, and only in retrospect. Since Cersei is not a PoV yet, we do not see her thoughts about Sansa, or her instructing Joffrey how to treat his lady, or Joffrey trying to gain Sansa’s trust, unlike the show.

      I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean here? In the chapters themselves, there is quite a bit from Sansa. In the scene with Cersei, Sansa ends up giving away Ned’s whole plan to send them away. GRRM says this about Sansa’s role in it:

      The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned’s downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned’s plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc… but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King’s Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc… all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

      Ned’s talk with Littlefinger was certainly a turning point, though I am not sure I would call it =the= turning point. There were other crucial decisions that could easily have changed all had they gone differently. You mention Ned’s refusal of Renly, which was equally critical. And there is Varys to consider, as well as the minor but crucial player everyone forgets — Janos Slynt, who might have chosen just to do his duty instead of selling the gold cloaks to the highest bidder.

      So… all in all, I suppose my answer would be that there is no single villain in the piece who caused it all, but rather a good half dozen players whose actions were all in part responsible for what happened.
      Hope that helps.

      Sansa’s PoV is very tricky; she deflects the guilt of her father and the king to Cersei and Arya, because she knows she can’t blame the king (for obvious reasons) or her father (because she loves him). She also knows that Joffrey is her husband-to-be so she can’t blame him either, since women are trained to not question, not accuse and suffer whatever their husbands say and do without protesting. (cf. Catelyn) After the tourney, Sansa comes to embrace the “official” version of events and blames the butcher’s boy for attacking Joffrey, while in reality it was Arya who hit him on the head. The real events are wiped out of her memory, because they are too traumatic to remember as they were.

      Well, this isn’t the reasoning Sansa herself uses though and this doesn’t reflect in her thoughts. She doesn’t want to blame Joffrey because she wants to hold to that fantasy she has of him on her head — so it’s easier to blame Arya, the sister she’s often angry with, who embarrasses her.

      However, Sansa does blame Cersei… and can’t blame the king because he’s king? But Cersei’s the queen…

      But there’s no indication the true events are wiped from Sansa’s memory. Sansa was making some choices here and she had a lot of anger at Arya.

      Later, Sansa feeling vulnerable as people of her own house have gone after Clegane, Arya accuses Jamie for starting everything (which is only partly true). This causes Sansa’s haughty attitude and her outburst “it should have been you” with Arya destroying Sansa’s silk dress which was a gift from the queen (a scene that was transferred out of context in the show in ep.1).

      Well, Sansa accused Mycah of attacking Joffrey and when Arya calls her out on his, Sansa proceeds to claim when she’s married to Joffrey, Arya will have to bow and call her queen. This is when Arya ruins Sansa’s dress:

      Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. “Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them.”

      “It’s not the same,” Sansa said. “The Hound is Joffrey’s sworn shield. Your butcher’s boy attacked the prince.”

      “Liar,” Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

      “Go ahead, call me all the names you want,” Sansa said airily. “You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace.” She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

      “You have juice on your face, Your Grace,” Arya said.

      It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. “You’re horrible,” she screamed at her sister. “They should have killed you instead of Lady!”

      [Part 1]

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    112. Efi,

      Sansa is punished for her bratty attitude and walks away crying, while Arya is in reality the one who initiates the fight as she is unable to realize again Sansa’s position; the Lannisters are now her kin by betrothal, and in addition they hold all power in the city and the realm, but none of that ever mattered to Arya.

      Arya is also sent to her room. They were also both fighting. This entire interaction began when Arya asked where their father was. Additionally, Sansa’s defense of Jaime and her lie about Mycah isn’t due to Sansa feeling she has to lie on their behalf because the Lannisters hold the power. She’s not afraid of retaliation. These feelings or justifications don’t enter her thoughts.

      Instead, Sansa feels Arya is spoiling everything, that the life she dreamed about is being threatened, and this is what she tells her father:

      “Arya started it,” Sansa said quickly, anxious to have the first word. “She called me a liar and threw an orange at me and spoiled my dress, the ivory silk, the one Queen Cersei gave me when I was betrothed to Prince Joffrey. She hates that I’m going to marry the prince. She tries to spoil everything, Father, she can’t stand for anything to be beautiful or nice or splendid.”

      ____

      Later Sansa is called to come down because their father wants them both, and we see how well trained she is to pretend that nothing happened and that she is alright, because that’s what female training in Westeros is all about.

      Well, Sansa doesn’t pretend nothing happened. She’s still very upset with Arya, per the quote above.

      To Sansa, her father’s decision to send them back to WF is a punishment. While her sister gets what she wants, training with a master and to return to WF, Sansa is once again ignored, her life turning upside down again (she didn’t ask to be brought to KL as the prince’s betrothed, it was her mother’s design), shut down, dismissed without explanation. In all this it’s heartbreaking that the initial “she hasn’t done anything, she’s good, I’ll make her be good” with regard to Lady has turned into “I haven’t done anything, I’ll be good” within two chapters only. It’s very complex but it’s masterful writing from Martin. This is Sansa’s bubble; she feels that her own family ignores her and trains herself to think that Cersei and Joffrey are in reality good people.

      There’s nothing that indicates Sansa is being ignored or that Sansa must train herself to believe Cersei and Joffrey are good people. Sansa wants somebody to blame for the spoiling of a fairytale she believed her life was becoming — marrying a prince, becoming queen, living that courtly life she dreamed of.

      Ned also clarifies he’s not sending Sansa to Winterfell because she and Arya fought, it’s for her own safety. But Sansa is angry because this means she can no longer marry Joffrey and in that, she loses the life she wanted so much. This is what upsets Sansa.

      “I didn’t do anything wrong,” Sansa pleaded with him. “I don’t want to go back.” She loved King’s Landing; the pagaentry of the court, the high lords and ladies in their velvets and silks and gemstones, the great city with all its people. The tournament had been the most magical time of her whole life, and there was so much she had not seen yet, harvest feasts and masked balls and mummer shows. She could not bear the thought of losing it all. “Send Arya away, she started it, Father, I swear it. I’ll be good, you’ll see, just let me stay and I promise to be as fine and noble and courteous as the queen.”

      Father’s mouth twitched strangely. “Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

      Arya was chewing at her lip in that disgusting way she had. “Can we take Syrio back with us?”

      “Who cares about your stupid dancing master?” Sansa flared. “Father, I only just now remembered, I can’t go away, I’m to marry Prince Joffrey.” She tried to smile bravely for him. “I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies.”

      “Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”

      “He is!” Sansa insisted. “I don’t want someone brave and gentle, I want him. We’ll be ever so happy, just like in the songs, you’ll see. I’ll give him a son with golden hair, and one day he’ll be the king of all the realm, the greatest king that ever was, as brave as the wolf and as proud as the lion.”

      Sansa cried as Septa Mordane marched them down the steps. They were going to take it all away; the tournaments and the court and her prince, everything, they were going to send her back to the bleak grey walls of Winterfell and lock her up forever. Her life was over before it had begun.

      “Stop that weeping, child,” Septa Mordane said sternly. “I am certain your lord father knows what is best for you.”

      “It won’t be so bad, Sansa,” Arya said. “We’re going to sail on a galley. It will be an adventure, and then we’ll be with Bran and Robb again, and Old Nan and Hodor and the rest.” She touched her on the arm.

      “Hodor!” Sansa yelled. “You ought to marry Hodor, you’re just like him, stupid and hairy and ugly!” She wrenched away from her sister’s hand, stormed into her bedchamber, and barred the door behind her.

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    113. Efi,

      They keep forgetting that Arya had already told the truth, so Sansa saying once (not repeatedly) “it was Nymeria, Arya did it” when she herself stood to be punished does not mean anything for the grander scheme of things. But the trick here is not who spelled the truth -because they had Joffrey’s version, and they had the truth from Arya- it’s the power imbalance: Robert, Cersei and Joffrey are the royal family. Mycah, Arya and Sansa, and Ned, are not. So who is gonna take the blame?

      Well, Robert, specifically, was getting frustrated because Arya and Joffrey were telling two very different stories. Ned offers Sansa’s version to clarify events since, as Robert puts it, it has so far been a he-said vs. she-said scenario.

      Prince Joffrey was pale as he began his very different version of events. When his son was done talking, the king rose heavily from his seat, looking like a man who wanted to be anywhere but here. “What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing, she says another.”

      “They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”

      His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. “I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see …”

      “You rotten!” Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. “Liar, liar, liar, liar.”

      ___

      Sansa has reached the point where she doesn’t listen to her father anymore. But it is a long series of events, neglect and dismissal bordering on indifference on Ned’s part that led Sansa to this defiance.

      No, Sansa did not go to Cersei because Ned was being neglectful, dismissive, or indifferent to Sansa. Ned told Sansa he was sending her back to Winterfell for her own safety, not as punishment. Nor was he indifferent to Sansa. He promised to make her a match with a better boy as Joffrey was not who Sansa believed he was. This upset Sansa.

      So the next morning, Sansa went to Cersei because she was upset over Ned breaking her betrothal to Joffrey and wanted Cersei to fix that situation, to reinstate the marriage betrothal.

      When she goes to see Cersei, Cersei, Varys, Pycelle tell Sansa that Ned tried to replace Joffrey with Stannis and that Ned is a traitor. Cersei tells Sansa that she is so sorry, that she knows Sansa is innocent, but in light of this, cannot allow Sansa to marry her son. Sansa has trouble believing this about her father and Sansa thinks that everything’s gone wrong, she was supposed to marry Joffrey, that she dreamed of this. It wasn’t fair.

      It’s here that Sansa spills Ned’s plans to Cersei and pleads with Cersei to let her marry Joffrey. As Varys, Littlefinger and Pycelle convene, Sansa believes she sees kindness in Cersei’s eyes while Cersei tells Sansa that she’d love nothing more than for Sansa to marry Joffrey. However:

      [Cersei] sighed. “And yet, I fear that Lord Varys and the Grand Maester have the right of it. The blood will tell. I have only to remember how your sister set her wolf on my son.”

      “I’m not like Arya,” Sansa blurted. “She has the traitor’s blood, not me. I’m good, ask Septa Mordane, she’ll tell you, I only want to be Joffrey’s loyal and loving wife.”

      She felt the weight of Cersei’s eyes as the queen studied her face. “I believe you mean it, child.” She turned to face the others. “My lords, it seems to me that if the rest of her kin were to remain loyal in this terrible time, that would go a long way toward laying our fears to rest.”

      Grand Maester Pycelle stroked his huge soft beard, his wide brow furrowed in thought. “Lord Eddard has three sons.”

      “Mere boys,” Lord Petyr said with a shrug. “I should be more concerned with Lady Catelyn and the Tullys.”

      The queen took Sansa’s hand in both of hers. “Child, do you know your letters?”

      And thus, Cersei has Sansa write that letter.

      But Sansa didn’t go to Cersei because Ned was mistreating her. Sansa went to Cersei because she was upset with Ned that Ned broke her betrothal to Joffrey and Sansa was wanting Cersei to fix it.

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    114. Fireblood87,

      “… I understand where people can say it’s not rape in the books I just don’t agree.”

      Yeah, I thought it was darkly amusing that GRRM claimed to have written a scene wherein a young teenage girl has sex with an adult, but it wasn’t rape. To GRRM’s audience, that is by definition rape, and I agree with you: presenting it as otherwise would have been worse than pretending the teenager wasn’t too young to give consent.

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    115. Efi,

      Well, I never really dissected every bit of book dialogue because as I said, I’m nowhere close invested in the book series as I have been in TV series. I do know that those couple times I re-read first three books when the TV show was out for multiple years, I found Sansa (and main characters in general) less likable there than I did on TV. And apart of everything I listed regarding Sansa above, the fact that also contributes a lot to it in my case is the fact we’re stuck in their heads and with all their gloomy thoughts so eventually it becomes burdening to me and almost frustrating. Same reason why I could never enjoy “THe Leftovers” TV show… the characters started straight burdening me there. I still very much stand by my words that I think it was good that TV omitted Sansa’s uglier moments in S1 as there was already a lot of dislike from the audience.

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    116. Adrianacandle,

      Adriana I don’t understand the point of these long posts and I don’t have time today to reply with another long post. I know the text, I’ve read it. There’s the written word and the interpretation (I do see manipulation in Cersei), and I don’t see how we disagree (apart from a very few minor things, i.e. Sansa wanting to become queen-she didn’t, that was show invention). I also didn’t say that Sansa went to Cersei because her father mistreated her; on the contrary, she was protected from the truth (which is what Martin basically says), but this caused her misunderstanding of the situation. She was shut down (repeatedly) by her father, who had killed her direwolf himself. Ned basically failed to protect her, so Sansa went to an authority figure to at least save her upcoming marriage. Ned said this to Arya:

      “I do not mean to frighten you, but neither will I lie to you. We have come to a dark dangerous place, child. This is not Winterfell. We have enemies who mean us ill. We cannot fight a war among ourselves. This willfulness of yours, the running off, the angry words, the disobedience… at home, these were only the summer games of a child. Here and now, with winter soon upon us, that is a different matter. It is time to begin growing up”.

      But he never discussed anything about enemies with his eldest daughter, he just expected her to do what she had to without explanation. After the breach of trust at the Trident, why would Sansa trust Ned just like that? Sansa sees that Arya is rewarded, but not her. So she sought comfort with someone else. It seems logical to me, untimely, with catastrophical consequences (although she is not to blame for Ned’s arrest) but that’s what it is.

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    117. Efi,

      Adriana I don’t understand the point of these long posts and I don’t have time today to reply with another long post.

      That’s fine, Efi. I don’t expect anything from you in way of response. I’m not making long posts for the sake of them being long. The posts are long because I included passages that I think speak for themselves with what the narrative was telling.

      I just don’t think they line up with the interpretations you’re applying to the narrative (ie. “Sansa has reached the point where she doesn’t listen to her father anymore. But it is a long series of events, neglect and dismissal bordering on indifference on Ned’s part that led Sansa to this defiance.”). Sansa going to Cersei was about Sansa’s upset that Ned broke off her engagement to Joffrey.

      But I also agree Cersei is really manipulating Sansa and playing on her feelings for Joffrey.

      (apart from a very few minor things, i.e. Sansa wanting to become queen-she didn’t, that was show invention).

      From the quotes, it does seem Sansa wants to be queen…

      I also didn’t say that Sansa went to Cersei because her father mistreated her; on the contrary, she was protected from the truth (which is what Martin basically says), but this caused her misunderstanding of the situation.

      I’m sorry, I must have misinterpreted when you said, “Sansa has reached the point where she doesn’t listen to her father anymore. But it is a long series of events, neglect and dismissal bordering on indifference on Ned’s part that led Sansa to this defiance.” This does sound, to me, like mistreatment. I’m sorry for misunderstanding you though or if we have different understandings of mistreatment.

      She was shut down (repeatedly) by her father, who had killed her direwolf himself. Ned basically failed to protect her, so Sansa went to an authority figure to at least save her upcoming marriage.

      I don’t know where Ned shut Sansa down? Ned also objected to killing Lady but it was the only way to reconcile the situation. That situation was not Ned’s fault. Sansa wasn’t able to tell the truth of what happened and later, in her argument with Arya, falsely accused Mycah for starting it.

      When Arya accuses Sansa of lying when she is being questioned about the Trident incident, Ned responds that they all lie, referencing Nymeria. He doesn’t put the responsibility onto Sansa.

      But Sansa’s motivation for seeing Cersei wasn’t because Ned failed to protect her — it was to prevent Ned from sending her way so she could marry Joffrey.

      But he never discussed anything about enemies with his eldest daughter, he just expected her to do what she had to without explanation. After the breach of trust at the Trident, why would Sansa trust Ned just like that? Sansa sees that Arya is rewarded, but not her. So she sought comfort with someone else. It seems logical to me, untimely, with catastrophical consequences (although she is not to blame for Ned’s arrest) but that’s what it is.

      Ned did tell Sansa that, “Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.” He did tell Sansa the situation was no longer safe in King’s Landing for them.

      As for Arya being rewarded, that’s not meant as a reward. They obviously can’t bring Joffrey with them or keep the betrothal agreement, which is what Sansa is upset over.

      As for Sansa having no blame in Ned’s arrest, well… GRRM sees it differently, that she did have a role in it but take that for what you will. I have mixed opinions on that.

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    118. Adrianacandle,

      Efi,

      I for one enjoyed reading your back-and-forth discussions about the Sansa – Arya squabble in the books. I’ve refrained from weighing in because … well, I have not read the books, and because I am an unabashed Arya partisan.

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    119. Adrianacandle,

      About your description (excerpted below) of book! Sansa running to Cersei and ratting out Ned’s exfiltration plans, thereby enabling Cersei to outmaneuver Ned and foil his plans to get his daughters out of KL before the sh*t hit the fan:

      [You wrote]:
      ”…Ned told Sansa he was sending her back to Winterfell for her own safety, not as punishment. Nor was he indifferent to Sansa. He promised to make her a match with a better boy as Joffrey was not who Sansa believed he was. This upset Sansa.

      So the next morning, Sansa went to Cersei because she was upset over Ned breaking her betrothal to Joffrey and wanted Cersei to fix that situation, to reinstate the marriage betrothal.

      When she goes to see Cersei, Cersei, Varys, Pycelle tell Sansa that Ned tried to replace Joffrey with Stannis and that Ned is a traitor. Cersei tells Sansa that she is so sorry, that she knows Sansa is innocent, but in light of this, cannot allow Sansa to marry her son. Sansa has trouble believing this about her father and Sansa thinks that everything’s gone wrong, she was supposed to marry Joffrey, that she dreamed of this. It wasn’t fair.

      It’s here that Sansa spills Ned’s plans to Cersei and pleads with Cersei to let her marry Joffrey. As Varys, Littlefinger and Pycelle convene, Sansa believes she sees kindness in Cersei’s eyes while Cersei tells Sansa that she’d love nothing more than for Sansa to marry Joffrey….

      • From my second-hand knowledge of the books, I was aware that book! Sansa spilled the beans to Cersei; this apparent betrayal was omitted from the show.

      • As you probably recall, I’ve been critical of the show’s S7 PsychoArya vs. FranticSansa stupid unearthed letter plot. I won’t list all of my grievances, eg the letter was old news; nobody held it against tween Sansa for writing that letter back then; everyone immediately knew Sansa was essentially taking dictation and writing Cersei’s words; it was like a POW or hostage video, made under duress. The Northerners wouldn’t hold it against Sansa 6-7 years later, Sansa had no reason to freak out about its possible disclosure, and Arya had no reason to get so pissed off at Sansa for having written it. The whole sister vs. sister squabble seemed awfully contrived.

      • I ought to thank you for supplying some support for what I posed as pure speculation about an alternative scenario that may have accorded with GRRM’s original blueprint:
      – First: I had posited that the Arya vs. Sansa S7 feud could have been credible, if the factoid threatened to be disclosed was Sansa’s previously unpublicized snitching to Cersei. Arya would have good reason to become furious once she learned about that: Giving Cersei a head’s up turned Arya into a virtual refugee, and effectively forced Ned to falsely confess to treason in a last ditch (and ultimately futile) attempt to protect his daughters; and contributed in large part to Ned’s beheading, per the cited interview snippet of GRRM. Upon learning the details even years later, Arya could justifiably blame Sansa’s Lannister infatuation for her father’s death

      – However, because the show excluded Sansa snitching to Cersei in S1, they could not rely on the threat of disclosing that to ignite the sister-against-sister conflict in S7.

      What I did NOT know for certain until I read your quotes/synopsis of book! Sansa yapping to Cersei, was that when “Sansa spills Ned’s plans to Cersei and pleads with Cersei to let her marry Joffrey,” Varys, Littlefinger and Pycelle convened…

      In other words, book! LF was there, and heard and saw Sansa throw Ned under the bus in favor of her beloved Joffrey. LF was therefore not aware of Sansa’s gratuitous snitching.
      LF could then exploit that compromising information, i.e., selectively or indirectly divulging it to Arya to incite Arya to condemn her sister for betraying their family.

      [I’m tired. I hope this is making sense…]

      • One other thing:
      Here is the show version of Ned informing his daughters he was sending them back to WF for their safety, and Sansa’s pushback:

      0:37 Arya: “Seven hells!” 😃

      • A final observation to follow…
      (1:45 am: To be continued…. ⏰)

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    120. Ten Bears: In other words, book! LF was there, and heard and saw Sansa throw Ned under the bus in favor of her beloved Joffrey. LF was therefore not aware of Sansa’s gratuitous snitching.
      LF could then exploit that compromising information, i.e., selectively or indirectly divulging it to Arya to incite Arya to condemn her sister for betraying their family.

      Yeah, in theory! If there was an occasion for LF to turn Arya against Sansa, he could use this information to incite Arya into doing so — and twist it however he wanted. In truth, all Sansa naively wanted was her betrothal restored, she had no idea her actions would help contribute to such a devastating disaster. She had this idea that the king could order Ned to stay and command him to allow her to marry Joffrey. However, while I know Sansa and Arya have some issues to work out with each other, I’m hopeful the Sansa vs. Arya storyline doesn’t manifest in the books as it did in the show — and fingers crossed, LF might be among the deceased? 🙂

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    121. Adrianacandle,

      Martin said Sansa is to blame for spoiling the logistics of the escape. Had Cersei not known that they’d be gone (the ship, the time frame, etc), perhaps she’d have convened the gathering at the throne room later. That’s it; that is Sansa’s blame and it resulted into her being taken hostage right away. The rest of what I say is in the text. I won’t deny though that Sansa didn’t want to lose the dream. Especially in these chapters it’s found all over as an excuse and reasoning for her running to Cersei. But even there it’s clear that she was seeking for an authority figure other than her father whom she didn’t trust anymore that he’d do the right thing for her.

      “The king had been her last hope. The king would command Father to let her stay in King’s Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly… only then, Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor’s Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside”.

      And of course, no one can deny that she wants the prince; it’s all over the text in these two chapters. All I’m saying is that there is a complicated process behind the events and behind the excuse to stay with the prince. One does not cancel the other.
      This exchange happens during breakfast, on the morning of Robert’s death and the girls’ departure (Arya has one last lesson):

      “Sansa looked up from her food. “If she can have a dancing lesson, why won’t you let me say farewell to Prince Joffrey?”
      “I would gladly go with her, lord Eddard” Septa Mordane offered. “There would be no question of her missing the ship”.
      “It would not be wise for you to go to Goffrey right now, Sansa. I’m sorry”
      Sansa’s eyes filled with tears. “But why?”
      “Sansa, your lord father knows best”, Septa Mordane said. “You are not to question his decisions”.
      “It’s not fair!” Sansa pushed back from her table, knocked over her chair, and ran from the solar.”

      I think this qualifies for some unequal treatment. It’s silly, it’s a young girl’s frustration, but that is what Sansa herself understands. “It’s not fair!” Sansa feels that Arya gets the better deal while she is told to shut up and not to speak.
      Later, there’s this:

      “She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her father”.

      So Sansa did defy her father who failed to explain to her the complications of the situation he was facing in KL. Ned should have been more specific with her. Also, he should have delayed to convene the council and disclose his intention to put Stannis on the throne until after the ship had left with his daughters in it; or the ship should have departed in the morning, not noon. Ned calls the council right after he was informed of Robert’s death. During the council he is called to the throne room and all is over. These are the events.

      Martin is known for giving full justification of the events that occur as a result of someone’s behavior, or because of another event. Nothing happens without the reader knowing why it happened. Had it not been so fully justified, I’d have embraced the view that Sansa is silly and superficial, that she only wants the dream, the silks, the prince and so on while none of that matters.
      But as I see it, throughout the first book, Ned is 100% to blame for his daughter’s last minute willfulness, while before that she was “the good girl, the obedient girl”. So what happened and now she’s not that girl anymore?
      As I see it, the answer is not the prince, the prince is just the excuse. Because, for a young girl to exchange her father’s authority figure with someone else’s, is a huge step, is a life-changing event and Sansa would not have taken that step just because of the prince.
      Ned unfortunately lost all credibility and authority with his daughter, he lost her trust in him. Right until the last moment, Ned does not realize in what a pit of snakes he’s in; even in prison, he was shocked when Varys made it clear for him that Sansa was expendable, that they would kill her and that points to some major disillusionment.
      He was not prepared for this and he is responsible for much of his family’s fate.

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    122. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      I for one enjoyed the relationship between Arya and Sansa in book 1. I found it utterly amusing, and if something feels off I recall that they are still children. I don’t think their chapter are the gloomiest. Imo these are Jon’s chapters (in book 1), and sometimes Ned’s. But their relationship on the show does come out more superficial because, as I see it, they laid too much emphasis on Sansa wanting to become queen (which, as I argue in my last post for Adriana, is only apparent in the later chapters). Before these Sansa is living the dream!

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    123. Efi,

      Martin said Sansa is to blame for spoiling the logistics of the escape. Had Cersei not known that they’d be gone (the ship, the time frame, etc), perhaps she’d have convened the gathering at the throne room later. That’s it; that is Sansa’s blame and it resulted into her being taken hostage right away. The rest of what I say is in the text. I won’t deny though that Sansa didn’t want to lose the dream. Especially in these chapters it’s found all over as an excuse and reasoning for her running to Cersei. But even there it’s clear that she was seeking for an authority figure other than her father whom she didn’t trust anymore that he’d do the right thing for her.

      Martin did specifically say, “The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned’s downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her.” It wasn’t simply about having Sansa being taken hostage, Sansa had a role in contributing to Ned’s downfall.

      Nowhere in Sansa’s thoughts is it mentioned she was seeking an authority figure other than her father because she didn’t think he’d do the right thing for her. She was upset Ned wouldn’t let her say good-bye to Joffrey and broke her betrothal. Those don’t really qualify as necessities, especially when Joffrey was part of the Lannister family, who Ned now knew were dangerous.

      All I’m saying is that there is a complicated process behind the events and behind the excuse to stay with the prince. One does not cancel the other.

      I don’t think that’s an excuse. Wanting to see Joffrey and have her betrothal restored are the reasons Sansa provides, both vocally and in her thoughts. She doesn’t want to leave the prince, she doesn’t want to give up this dream, that’s why she’s upset.

      I think this qualifies for some unequal treatment. It’s silly, it’s a young girl’s frustration, but that is what Sansa herself understands. “It’s not fair!” Sansa feels that Arya gets the better deal while she is told to shut up and not to speak.

      Sansa is not told to “shut up and not to speak”. Ned tells her, “It would not be wise for you to go to Joffrey right now, Sansa. I’m sorry,” while Septa Mordane tells Sansa, “Sansa, your lord father knows best. […] You are not to question his decisions.”

      I can see how this would appear as unequal treatment to Sansa like it would to any other teenaged girl who is being told she can no longer see her boyfriend and that they won’t be seeing that family anymore — but it’s not, considering the circumstances. Arya being allowed a lesson with her dancing master is certainly not the same as letting Sansa near Joffrey, who is part of a family Ned now knows to be dangerous. Ned also tells Septa Mordane he plans to tell Sansa why when they are back safely in Winterfell.

      Additionally, Ned did explain to Sansa that the situation had become dangerous for them in King’s Landing — he tells her, “I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.” That would lay a basis as cause for concern that things are not safe for them there.

      So Sansa did defy her father who failed to explain to her the complications of the situation he was facing in KL. Ned should have been more specific with her.

      Not giving sufficient explanation for why she cannot say good-bye to Joffrey and feeling Ned isn’t being fair isn’t really good justification for Sansa to defy her father, especially when Ned has given the above explanation to Sansa prior. Sansa is a child, Ned is the parent. Sansa wasn’t being neglected, her welfare was not being overlooked overlooked, and Sansa has no reason to think so. She defied Ned because she didn’t like that he wasn’t allowing her to say good-bye to Joffrey.

      Feeling a parent isn’t being fair is something every child since immemorial has felt. This isn’t the same thing as a parent depriving that child or not trying to do right by that child. Sansa wasn’t making an adult decision, she was making a childish one fueled by her desire for Joffrey, not as a result of deprivation of emotional or physical needs.

      I agree Ned should have waited to act upon his plan until both girls were well away from King’s Landing.

      Had it not been so fully justified, I’d have embraced the view that Sansa is silly and superficial, that she only wants the dream, the silks, the prince and so on while none of that matters.

      But it’s not fully justified. It’s fueled by Sansa’s desire for Joffrey and her upset with Ned. She wanted Cersei to fix the situation of her broken betrothal. There’s no other motivation given to Sansa.

      But as I see it, throughout the first book, Ned is 100% to blame for his daughter’s last minute willfulness, while before that she was “the good girl, the obedient girl”. So what happened and now she’s not that girl anymore?

      Being obedient and “the good girl” does not entitle Sansa to instant explanations, nor does it justify Sansa defying a parent, no matter how disappointed Sansa is.

      Ned has not mistreated Sansa in any way, he has not neglected her, he has not treated her with indifference. Sansa was not being deprived of love or necessities. There was no need for Sansa to defy her father and go to the queen anyway, especially when Ned explained to Sansa it was not safe for them in King’s Landing anymore. He was looking out for her safety. Ned wouldn’t give her an explanation for disallowing her to say good-bye to Joffrey at that time because he felt a sense of urgency in his ill-formed plan. This still does not justify Sansa’s behavior, which contributed to making things worse.

      As I see it, the answer is not the prince, the prince is just the excuse. Because, for a young girl to exchange her father’s authority figure with someone else’s, is a huge step, is a life-changing event and Sansa would not have taken that step just because of the prince.

      This isn’t what Sansa was doing. Wanting to see the prince and marry the prince are the only motivations Sansa has in her head. Sansa didn’t like what her father told her so she went to Cersei instead, hoping for Cersei (or rather, the king) to overrule her father’s decision because the king had authority over Ned.

      Ned unfortunately lost all credibility and authority with his daughter, he lost her trust in him. Right until the last moment, Ned does not realize in what a pit of snakes he’s in; even in prison, he was shocked when Varys made it clear for him that Sansa was expendable, that they would kill her and that points to some major disillusionment.

      Sansa was upset that Ned broke her betrothal with Joffrey and would not let her say good-bye. I don’t see how that is cause for Ned losing all credibility and authority with his daughter or as a cause for her to lose all trust in him because he had told her things she didn’t like.

      Sansa doesn’t know the other stuff, Sansa can’t see the future and she’s not omniscient. Sansa’s reasons for being upset with Ned and going to Cersei was because she wanted Cersei to overrule Ned.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Ten Bears,

      I know!
      It’s not about taking sides in their conflict. They are so young, they are little girls in reality, thrown in the world of the adults unprepared and unaware of the dangers. But I do think that there will be some major explaining to each other when they meet again, although they both know the major events.
      Arya for example saw that Sansa begged Joffrey on her knees at the Sept, so sooner or later she’ll realize that Sansa was prepared for a pardon, not a decapitation. She doesn’t know about the letter, and that letter isn’t in Winterfell right now for LF to find it.
      The letter served to showcase that Robb is still immature despite waging a war. It arrived at WF and Robb took it with him when he left with the army. He did not understand what it was all about, and Bran had to remind him that “Sansa lost her direwolf”.
      I suppose that Sansa being traumatized by losing Lady is one explanation for Bran’s line; another could be, on a symbolic level, that she kind of lost her true identity, which binds with Lady being buried at WF –(contrasting, in this case) did she really lost her identity when Ned said “the Lannister woman shall never have this skin”?, — or with Jon’s saying “your children are meant to have those pups”, or when Ned laments “what have I done” with regard to killing Lady, or with Catelyn’s skepticism about what Ned did (Catelyn completely changed her mind about the direwolves when Summer saved Bran’s and her own life).
      Anyway, it is Catelyn that told Robb “that’s not Sansa, it’s Cersei” when she read that letter. Being older and more experienced, she’d know how things were.
      I don’t know how that letter reached WF in the show. As I recall it was with Robb even there. There’s a gap there, rather.

        Quote  Reply

    125. Adrianacandle,

      (Continued from 10/7/20 at 1:45 am)

      “• A final observation to follow…
      (1:45 am: To be continued
      …. ⏰)”

      —-
      I included the link to the S1 scene of Ned informing his daughters he was sending them back to WF, for another reason besides Arya’s classic “Seven Hells!” reaction to deluded Sansa whining about wanting to stay in KL because she “loved” Joffrey, and was meant to be his queen and have his babies…

      (Oh sh*t. 🤬 Gotta post the rest of this comment separately. The Lord of Light is screwing around with my internet connection again or something. If I switch screens to cut and paste text, the already-typed portion of my comments will disappear. Maybe I should go outside and burn some acetone + balsa slurry, and try again in a little while.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Adrianacandle,

      Correction/Clarification! I meant to emphasize: “Book! LF was therefore aware of Sansa’s gratuitous snitching.”
      Therefore, LF could selectively disclose that compromising information years later to antagonize Arya against Sansa, and make Sansa
      paranoid – assuming GRRM plans to have the sisters squabble when they reunite.
      To me, LF’s ability to exploit his knowledge that Sansa ratted out Ned’s exfiltration plans that was a credible, divisive threat. By itself though, the “letter” was innocuous. (Oh, and as another commenter dryly observed, the WF maester archiving file copies of all incoming letters seemed like a convenient retcon, and meant that LF invented the photocopier along with the jet pack. 🤓)

      However, by omitting from the show Sansa ratting out Ned’s plans to Cersei, the S7 WF “plot” felt contrived and illogical. At least to me.

      I also wonder if the showrunners were not apprised by GRRM of his intended sister vs. sister storyline at the time they were adapting S1, and as a result, had to cobble together another excuse for LF to provoke the sisters’ dust-up in S7.

      (Sorry if I am repeating myself…)

        Quote  Reply

    127. Ten Bears: I also wonder if the showrunners were not apprised by GRRM of his intended sister vs. sister storyline at the time they were adapting S1, and as a result, had to cobble together another excuse for LF to provoke the sisters’ dust-up in S7.

      I agree that had Sansa gone to Cersei on the show and leaked Ned’s departure plans with LF in the room, that would have been a more believable piece of information for LF to exploit when he was working to fan Arya’s mistrust of Sansa and drive a wedge between the two.

      But I’m not sure what GRRM has planned for when Arya and Sansa reunite. I don’t think it’s going to be smooth sailing, I think they’ll have some real things to work out with each other and perhaps they may never get along (like how you can love somebody but not like them all the time) — but I don’t think it’ll be a Sansa vs Arya thing either where it reaches deadly levels. I have my doubts LF will be involved in that storyline…. but I could be wrong 🙂

      For what it’s worth, GRRM did say this on the issue of Sansa and Arya:

      Arya was one of the first characters created. Sansa came about as a total opposite b/c too many of the Stark family members were getting along and families aren’t like that. Thus, Sansa was created; he ended by saying they have deep issues to work out.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Adrianacandle: I know this is off-topic but I’m very curious! What are you making??

      Oh, a few different ongoing projects – while taking breaks from real work:

      – Stripping off gummed labels from glass jars, cleaning paint brushes, and cleaning metal surfaces before painting or joining parts using epoxy (acetone) +
      – Sanding and shaping customized balsa nose cones using a drill as a lathe, producing balsa sawdust which I save to…
      – Use the balsa sawdust as a wood filler and as a lightweight malleable, sandable substrate for reinforcing and smoothing joints and seams, and for detailing, etc. by…
      – Mixing the sawdust with clear dope; clear enamel; sanding sealer; wood glue; white glue; or Elmer’s Carpenter’s Wood Filler.

      Balsa scraps + sawdust + acetone, Aero Gloss dope, thinner, or sanding sealer also makes a flammable “slurry” that produces a long-lasting blue flame.

      (Yes. I know. I need to get a life. 🤪
      Maybe next year when – if – the 🦠 dystopian sh*tshow has come to an end.)

        Quote  Reply

    129. Ten Bears: Oh, a few different ongoing projects – while taking breaks from real work:

      – Stripping off gummed labels from glass jars, cleaning paint brushes, and cleaning metal surfaces before painting or joining parts using epoxy (acetone) +
      – Sanding and shaping customized balsa nose cones using a drill as a lathe, producing balsa sawdust which I save to…
      – Use the balsa sawdust as a wood filler and as a lightweight malleable, sandable substrate for reinforcing and smoothing joints and seams, and for detailing, etc. by…
      – Mixing the sawdust with clear dope; clear enamel; sanding sealer; wood glue; white glue; or Elmer’s Carpenter’s Wood Filler.

      Balsa scraps + sawdust + acetone, Aero Gloss dope, thinner, or sanding sealer also makes a flammable “slurry” that produces a long-lasting blue flame.

      (Yes. I know. I need to get a life. 🤪
      Maybe next year when – if – the 🦠 dystopian sh*tshow has come to an end.)

      Oooooh, that all sounds great! I’m trying to picture what you are making with these jars and cones!

      So acetone can remove labels from jars? Would it work on removing labels from melamine? (I’m currently in the process of drilling peg holes for shelving to build my mega-wrap-around desk. I’ve got a drill jig! But I really need to increase my arm and grip strength to use this more effectively.)

        Quote  Reply

    130. Ten Bears,

      Btw, I’m still working on the site to showcase the laser stuff I’ve done. You still interested in taking a look when it’s all finished? 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    131. Adrianacandle,

      About GRRM’s quote: “Arya was one of the first characters created. Sansa came about as a total opposite b/c too many of the Stark family members were getting along and families aren’t like that. Thus, Sansa was created; he ended by saying they have deep issues to work out.”

      Sure, I can see how the sisters would have “issues to work out considering the friction between them as young girls; and rightly or wrongly blaming each other for betrayals and for the deaths of friends, pets and family.

      Even so, assuming they reunite as young women, there ought to be some lingering “deep issues” that need working out beyond hurt feelings from name-calling, insults, and food-flinging years earlier, or even mistakes made out of naivete.

      Anything less would come off as petty, “mean girls” sniping. Fighting over the “hostage letter” in S7 made them both look like gullible, bubbleheaded idiots – not a budding “savvy politician,” or “smartest person I’ve ever met,” or a highly trained human lie detector.

      Okay, now this is just my personal preference: I would have enjoyed a S7 reconciliation storyline leading up to their lovely battlements scene at the end of S7e7. The sisters had so much history to catch up on – and I felt there were missed opportunities for them to compare experiences and hash out any differences in “high thread count,” dialogue-rich scenes. The silly LF “scheme” and scenes full of sister vs sister threats
      leading up to the surprise trial by ambush of LF deprived the audience of such moments.

      As a microcosm of my disappointment:
      Point A (S7e5 or e6): “You never would have survived what I survived” to….

      Point B (S7e7): “I never would have survived what you survived.”
      “You would have. You’re the strongest person I know.”

      without showing us HOW they got from Point A to Point B.

        Quote  Reply

    132. Ten Bears: About GRRM’s quote: “Arya was one of the first characters created. Sansa came about as a total opposite b/c too many of the Stark family members were getting along and families aren’t like that. Thus, Sansa was created; he ended by saying they have deep issues to work out.”

      Sure, I can see how the sisters would have “issues to work out considering the friction between them as young girls; and rightly or wrongly blaming each other for betrayals and for the deaths of friends, pets and family.

      Even so, assuming they reunite as young women, there ought to be some lingering “deep issues” that need working out beyond hurt feelings from name-calling, insults, and food-flinging years earlier, or even mistakes made out of naivete.

      Anything less would come off as petty, “mean girls” sniping. Fighting over the “hostage letter” in S7 made them both look like gullible, bubbleheaded idiots – not a budding “savvy politician,” or “smartest person I’ve ever met,” or a highly trained human lie detector.

      Okay, now this is just my personal preference: I would have enjoyed a S7 reconciliation storyline leading up to their lovely battlements scene at the end of S7e7. The sisters had so much history to catch up on – and I felt there were missed opportunities for them to compare experiences and hash out any differences in “high thread count,” dialogue-rich scenes. The silly LF “scheme” and scenes full of sister vs sister threats
      leading up to the surprise trial by ambush of LF deprived the audience of such moments.

      As a microcosm of my disappointment:
      Point A (S7e5 or e6): “You never would have survived what I survived” to….

      Point B (S7e7): “I never would have survived what you survived.”
      “You would have. You’re the strongest person I know.”

      without showing us HOW they got from Point A to Point B.

      I largely agree and if the books ever come out, I think having insight into Sansa and Arya’s minds will help. Even if these conversations don’t occur on page, they can reflect on learning what the other sister went through and how they feel about that, how it changes their view of that person.

      Sister relationships are complicated, diverse, varied, and can sometimes be “bi-polar”. They’re your best friend one day, somebody who failed you on another, and an enemy the following Sunday. In Sansa and Arya’s case, I think their time apart makes them appreciate the other that much more and of the life they used to have. They were never friends but even if they don’t become friends upon their reuniting, I think their regard and appreciation for one another will be that much stronger. I think, yes, they have some deep deep issues to work out with one another but I think they can reach a place of truce and appreciative co-existence, even if they never become best friends and clash at times.

      Siblings also have the unique position that so much of the time, if they’re a bit close in age to you (or older) and have grown up in the same household, they know your entire history, they’ve been with you your whole life.

      Or… that’s been my experience with three very different sisters 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    133. Ten Bears,

      Yay!! It’s coming! But very very slowly….

      And I kind of really relate to GRRM in this case ;D When it comes time to work on the website, Netflix just happens to show me a movie I’d rather watch…

        Quote  Reply

    134. Adrianacandle: Oooooh, that all sounds great! I’m trying to picture what you are making with these jars and cones!

      So acetone can remove labels from jars? Would it work on removing labels from melamine?

      Glass jars: For decanting spray paint (to brush on the paint); to store food in the refrigerator; and [get a life warning ⚠️] to make floating “buoys” containing mini LED lights to pitch into the waterway.
      Nose cones: For model rockets, including custom designed versions. (Manufacturers charge $6 – $8 for a balsa nose cone I can make myself for 50 cents; or they’ve replaced balsa nose cones with pre-formed plastic crap. “Drains the fun right out of it.” – Polliver.)

      – Yes, acetone (= nail polish remover) for label removal from glass jars. “Goo Gone” and other products don’t work nearly as well – if at all. Such products may remove labels but always seem to leave a gummy residue.

      Caution: Acetone can melt some plastics. For plastic jars with labels or adhesives that won’t come off with soaking in water, I use a very small amount of acetone brushed on with a Q-Tip; rub or scrape off the label, and rinse off the surface quickly.

      Is “Melamine” a wood or fiber composite? If so, I’ve used acetone for label removal, but again, using a thin film and then rubbing off the label and adhesive and quickly wiping it off with a damp rag or washing it off. (It’s safer to use two or three light applications rather than inundating the surface with acetone – unless you test it first.) Acetone is a strong paint thinner, so it will dilute and strip off paint as well as certain chemicals used to treat and coat composite wood + fiber materials. I’ve never had a problem with that, but I’m not quite sure about “melamine.”

      Also, I prefer acetone over mineral spirits or turpentine. I don’t like their odors, they’re kind of oily and harder to clean off, and they just don’t work as well, eg, for cleaning brushes or thinning paint.

        Quote  Reply

    135. Efi:
      Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      I for one enjoyed the relationship between Arya and Sansa in book 1. I found it utterly amusing, and if something feels off I recall that they are still children. I don’t think their chapter are the gloomiest. Imo these are Jon’s chapters (in book 1), and sometimes Ned’s. But their relationship on the show does come out more superficial because, as I see it, they laid too much emphasis on Sansa wanting to become queen (which, as I argue in my last post for Adriana, is only apparent in the later chapters). Before these Sansa is living the dream!

      I personally don’t see any difference regarding Sansa wanting to become the queen more on TV show but not in the novels. From what I remember from my several re-readings from first three books, Sansa is completely infatuated with Joffrey. In her first chapter, there’s so much regarding how she loves spending time with him. In her second chapter, she so describes how she can’t stay angry at him and how Arya is all to blame… her entire motivation to go tell Cersei about Ned wanting to send her away is based on her wanting to marry Joffrey and then she begs Cersei after Ned’s imprisonment to still allow her to marry Joffrey. I never saw any difference regardig this in both media.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Ten Bears,

      You know those white dressers you see at IKEA? That’s melamine — it’s basically MDF coated with a melamine laminate. A bunch of 1/2″ melamine board was donated to my local makerspace so I was able to get the majority of what I needed to cut out my desk pieces for free (I just need to buy two more boards since the stuff ran out). However, every board has come with labels in the center, as well as peg holes (I plan to use covers meant to hide screws on these peg holes). I think it was donated because whatever project the donator was using this material for went wrong somehow — thus the pieces were useless to them. As a result, they gave it to the makerspace for free 🙂

      Based on what you said, it sounds like acetone would be a bit too strong for the laminate and may damage the surface. Steam doesn’t seem like a great idea on MDF either. I’m going to have to puzzle this one through!

      Glass jars: For decanting spray paint (to brush on the paint); to store food in the refrigerator; and [get a life warning ⚠️] to make floating “buoys” containing mini LED lights to pitch into the waterway.
      Nose cones: For model rockets, including custom designed versions. (Manufacturers charge $6 – $8 for a balsa nose cone I can make myself for 50 cents; or they’ve replaced balsa nose cones with pre-formed plastic crap. “Drains the fun right out of it.” – Polliver.)

      Oh, cool!! So we’re both using LED lights and making rockets!!!

      That sounds like a floating lantern! <3

        Quote  Reply

    137. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      That’s the reader’s take. You can read words or you can read a nuanced text. There’s tropes, point(s), literary schemes and themes, symbolism, parallels, and in Martin there’s even foreshadowing and mythology from all over the world. All this blur the take of each reader and differentiate it. A book is not a newspaper but even newspapers are nuanced and can be biased. If you’re not trained with literature or don’t like literature you’re more likely to miss key points. Reading comprehension is something that it is tought; we don’t have it in us.
      It’s the same with every other reader, every other subject and every other movie/show. Each reader’s or viewer’s take is in the eye of the beholder according to training, view and purpose of each of us. It is only subjective too; there is no objectivity here.
      (I, for example, find math very boring; and just like I thought that Sansa was spoiled in the show, I didn’t see any romance between Jon and Dany. That’s my take)

        Quote  Reply

    138. Efi: That’s the reader’s take. You can read words or you can read a nuanced text.

      I think the issue here is that some use this as an opening to apply a personal head canon to the text (or “subtext”). You’re right that some of this is subjective but I don’t really think there’s another story going on with Sansa in AGOT.

      In your comments here, it feels like you’re painting Sansa in book 1 as a hard-done-by, unfairly punished, neglected, dismissed, and overlooked daughter. When Sansa is saying, “I’ll be good, you’ll see, just let me stay and I promise to be as fine and noble and courteous as the queen,” she isn’t saying as a heartbreaking plea in response to unjust treatment. She’s begging Ned to let her stay in King’s Landing because she doesn’t want to give up the life she had experienced there. There’s no support in text that there’s anything more to it than this. She’s being an 11-year old girl who doesn’t want to give up her dream life and is upset when it’s being taken away. And Ned is clear that he’s not sending Sansa home to punish her but because it’s no longer safe in King’s Landing for them.

      I don’t see Sansa starting off the series as an empathetic and kind girl. She is kind of spoiled in AGOT. Rather, kindness and empathy are qualities she starts acquiring throughout her journey as she suffers, experiences hardships, and realizes the dreams she once had are simply fairytales and begins longing for home — realizing what she once took for granted. In reality, what Sansa thought would be her dream life turns out to be a nightmare.

      That’s not to say Sansa starts off as malicious but she can be cruel, namely to Arya. I’d say Sansa is demonstrative of a highborn, sheltered 11-year old girl who knows she has the coveted traits as prized by their society and is comfortable in her gender role. Sansa can be more on the spoiled, classist side. However, it’s from this point on that she develops kindness and empathy when she is put through hardships herself — and she learns the dangers of being coveted for her name, beauty, and that she does fit the role of a lady so well. I think this is what evokes her gradual transformation.

      Sansa never grew up lacking for love or necessities but I think it’s pretty clear she wanted to be queen. I don’t think the show did Sansa any injustice in her season 1 portrayal. Instead, I think the show did Sansa’s character some favours in season 1.

      In Winterfell, she wanted for nothing. It’s true Ned’s connection with Arya was probably the strongest out of all his kids and that’s likely because Arya reminded him so much of Lyanna. Meanwhile, Catelyn prefers Sansa because she finds Arya so difficult to handle. Ned does have a special relationship with Arya — but that doesn’t mean he’s not loving toward Sansa. Parents can have different relationships with each of their kids.

      If you’re not trained with literature or don’t like literature you’re more likely to miss key points.

      I mean this with the utmost respect, Efi, but I don’t think people need to be trained in literature to catch “key points”. We’re not even sure what these key points are, this is still being debated as the books are still unfinished.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Efi,

      I want to add that if you feel I’m misrepresenting your views or words at all, correct me. I also want to clarify I’m not trying to argue with you for the sake or arguing. I admit I often go by the writer’s word above all. Personally, I think reading into unwritten text can get pretty convoluted and messy because it’s not really substantiated but I know some readers do it. Myself, I usually rely on what’s in the text itself or the author’s word if something is unclear because I like that supported foundation — I like having something to source.

      I can’t argue that people are free to read whatever they want into a story, regardless of the author’s intention, or view this as “subtext”. That’s going to happen, nobody can make a law preventing people from seeing a story in the way they choose!

      But by this same token, I think this comes with the caveat that others may not see this view or interpretation as “canon” and may disagree with your view. I don’t think that means these people are lacking in literature education or the applicable training to see what you’re seeing, nor are they refusing to read a “nuanced” text rather than just words.

      However, on another subject! I wanted to offer something to this:

      I suppose that Sansa being traumatized by losing Lady is one explanation for Bran’s line; another could be, on a symbolic level, that she kind of lost her true identity, which binds with Lady being buried at WF –(contrasting, in this case) did she really lost her identity when Ned said “the Lannister woman shall never have this skin”?, — or with Jon’s saying “your children are meant to have those pups”, or when Ned laments “what have I done” with regard to killing Lady, or with Catelyn’s skepticism about what Ned did (Catelyn completely changed her mind about the direwolves when Summer saved Bran’s and her own life).

      Martin commented on the loss of Lady and it’s impact on Sansa in a 2003 interview (‘Interview With the Dragon’):

      [Roger] Shaw: You mentioned how closely tied the Stark children are with the direwolves, but how about Sansa now that Lady’s dead?

      Martin: She lost hers, so it kind of leaves her a little adrift. Of course Arya has lost her’s too, she’s separated from Nymeria.

      Shaw: [Arya] just started having her transformations also, though.

      So perhaps this is what Bran means? That Sansa is now a bit adrift without her wolf…

        Quote  Reply

    140. Adrianacandle,

      But by this same token, I think this comes with the caveat that others may not see this view or interpretation as “canon” and may disagree with your view. I don’t think that means these people are lacking in literature education or the applicable training to see what you’re seeing, nor are they refusing to read a “nuanced” text rather than just words.

      Spot-on. It’s also worth recalling how Efi assured us D&D had ruined Jaime’s arc, even though we don’t know how Jaime’s arc ends in the books, because Martin has yet to write it.

        Quote  Reply

    141. Adrianacandle: I can’t argue that people are free to read whatever they want into a story, regardless of the author’s intention, or view this as “subtext”.

      Ah! Typo! I meant to say, “I can’t argue that people aren’t free to read whatever they want into a story[…]”

      Sorry about that!

      Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      It’s true that we’re working with a lot of unknowns at this point in regard to the books. I hope that’s not a forever case 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    142. Semi-Off Topic
      Life imitating a mash-up of art?

      Prince Joffrey slicing the face of Arya’s friend, “the ginger” Mycah, in S1e2
      +
      Maisie Williams’s friend, the ginger Ed Sheehan, as the singing Lannister soldier with Arya in S7e1

      = Princess Beatrice slicing the face of Maisie Williams’s friend Ed Sheeran

      _________________
      People.com October 7, 2020

      “Ed Sheeran’s Manager Speaks Out About Alleged Sword Incident with Princess Beatrice”

      Beatrice allegedly sliced the “Shape of You” singer’s face with a ceremonial sword during a Royal Lodge party in 2016

      by PHIL BOUCHER

      Ed Sheeran’s manager is speaking out against Princess Beatrice for allegedly slashing the four-time Grammy winner’s face with a ceremonial sword.

      Stuart Camp, who’s managed the “Shape of You” singer since 2011, claims he hasn’t “heard hide nor hair” from Beatrice, 32, since she reportedly cut the singer’s cheek at a party at the Royal Lodge, Windsor in 2016, leaving him requiring stitches.

      ***

      Reports first broke about the cause of Sheeran’s mysterious facial laceration, which Camp says now “kind of suits” him, in November 2017.

      According to The Sun, the cut happened when Beatrice pretended to knight singer James Blunt, 46, at the party — not knowing that Sheeran was standing close behind her when she swung the sword.

      The blade allegedly sliced Sheeran’s face — just a few inches below his right eye.

      ****

      _______________
      “The Kingsroad” S1e2: Prince Joffrey slices the face of “the ginger,” Mycah

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zPUeBv9KV4

      +

      “Dragonstone” S7e1: Ed Sheeran, the ginger Lannister soldier, meets Arya

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCxYgEennHU&list=LLRn-E3rHEIPsZdGmlY4x0uA

      Q.E.D.

      All Roads Lead to Arya”

      – Ancient Roman adage

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    143. Ten Bears,

      Nice connection!

      And I’d say it kind of applies to the topic being discussed vis a vis the situation between Arya/Mycah/Sansa/and Joffrey 🙂

      But it’s nice that Beatrice was no Prince Joffrey 😉

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    144. Adrianacandle:
      Ten Bears,

      Nice connection!

      And I’d say it kind of applies to the topic being discussed vis a vis the situation between Arya/Mycah/Sansa/and Joffrey 🙂

      But it’s nice that Beatrice was no Prince Joffrey 😉

      I couldn’t cut and paste the image of Ed Sheeran accompanying that article. The scar on his face from Princess Beatrice’s sword is in exactly the same location as Mycah’s wound from Prince Joffrey’s sword.

      I cut and pasted excerpts from the People.com article. The full version contained longer quotes from Sheeran’s manager and Sheeran himself about the “alleged” incident, including previous evasive comments implying they were reluctant to talk about what really happened.

      The subtext was that royals get to carelessly play with swords, and the common folk can’t complain about it when they get hurt: Just as in the “Arya/Mycah/Sansa/and Joffrey situation.”

      (How I wish someone had been there to warn Princess Beatrice, “Little lady shouldn’t be playing with swords,” mimicking the voice of Sean Bean as Ned.)

        Quote  Reply

    145. Ten Bears: I couldn’t cut and paste the image of Ed Sheeran accompanying that article. The scar on his face from Princess Beatrice’s sword is in exactly the same location as Mycah’s wound from Prince Joffrey’s sword.

      I cut and pasted excerpts from the People.com article. The full version contained longer quotes from Sheeran’s manager and Sheeran himself about the “alleged” incident, including previous evasive comments implying they were reluctant to talk about what really happened.

      The subtext was that royals get to carelessly play with swords, and the common folk can’t complain about it when they get hurt: Just as in the “Arya/Mycah/Sansa/and Joffrey situation.”

      (How I wish someone had been there to warn Princess Beatrice, “Little lady shouldn’t be playing with swords,” mimicking the voice of Sean Bean as Ned.)

      Oh! Those are some interesting connections! A better version of fiction playing out in truth! (Better in that Princess Beatrice had done so accidentally and wasn’t trying to hurt Ed Sheeran — also, nobody’s beloved wolf had to pay the price).

      It is a bit like life imitating a mash-up of art!

      Speaking of Sheeran, that podcast I mentioned about a month ago (entitled ‘We Regret to Inform You’ which goes over the many failures of well-known people or projects before they finally made it) had a feature on Ed Sheeran 🙂

      The synopsis:

      In 2020, Ed Sheeran was named UK Artist of the Decade. But 11 years earlier, he was dropped by his own management. And reeling from rejection after rejection by every major label in the country.

      This week, we break down Sheeran’s inspiring story. From being told he should just give out his music for free to setting the record for the highest-grossing tour of all time.

      It’s pretty good!

      Arya and Maisie Williams both inevitably crossed my mind while listening to this 😉

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    146. Efi,

      You know, I don’t mind if someone has their own theories about the story and such but I certainly don’t appreciate this implication that if I’m not “trained in literature”, I’m not fully getting it. Also, let’s not forget there are two more books missing, so the story is nowhere finished so all we can make is personal speculation at this point. I think when a story is written, it doesn’t exist in order to fool majority of readers and that only the “selected few” are actually able to read the story. I agree with Adriana here regarding Sansa… I don’t think there’s anything more to her in AGOT than what we got in TV show and I would find it hard to believe that S1, which is by far most closely adapted from the novel, would turn out to be something completely different what Martin wrote. Whether you have your own personal theories and interpretations, fine. But don’t call me uneducated because I don’t form my personal theories beyond the story that unfolds in front of my eyes, whether it’s text or books.

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    147. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending:
      Adrianacandle,

      But by this same token, I think this comes with the caveat that others may not see this view or interpretation as “canon” and may disagree with your view. I don’t think that means these people are lacking in literature education or the applicable training to see what you’re seeing, nor are they refusing to read a “nuanced” text rather than just words.

      Spot-on. It’s also worth recalling how Efi assured us D&D had ruined Jaime’s arc, even though we don’t know how Jaime’s arc ends in the books, because Martin has yet to write it.

      Well hold on. No matter how (or if) the Big Kahuna writes the end of “Jaime’s arc,” is it unfair to suggest that D&D had ruined it on the show?

      I can certainly see how a “true to life” portrayal of a guy stuck in a toxic relationship with a “hateful woman” before seeming to extract himself from it, could end up with him relapsing and going back to her – to his doom.

      However, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to feel that the way Jaime’s “arc” ended on the show was disjointed and illogical. After several seasons showing how Jaime came to embrace his noble, honorable side (with Brienne’s faith and urging), and the big bathtub reveal that he became “the kingslayer” to save the lives of half a million innocent civilians….

      – It was jarring to see Jaime confide to Tyrion in S8 that he never gave a f*ck about the people, “innocent or otherwise.” WTF???
      – It was kind of cringeworthy to watch him “seduce” Brienne with the finesse of the juvenile delinquent on “The Simpsons” (i.e., “it’s hot in here; lemme take off my shirt”).
      – Callously blowing off Brienne and leaving her a blubbering mess was a disservice to both characters.
      – Simply declaring “I’m a hateful man” – without showing he was conflicted in any way – came off as forced.
      – For me, the Euron ex machina fight on the beach was illogical and a waste of screen time, with vacuous dialogue. (I could almost hear Humphrey Bogart’s voiceover channeling Rick in “Casablanca,” narrating: “Out of all the beaches on all the shorelines in all the city, he washes up on mine.”)
      Why did they start fighting anyway?
      – Anything remotely connected to the Cersei baby drama made me want to puke. And if Cersei’s faux? pregnancy motivated him to abandon Brienne and betray his alliance with The Living, that wasn’t demonstrated on screen, was it?
      – The turnaround from “I’m so done with Cersei; she deceived me and dishonored our promise to join forces to fight the AotD; she was
      about to have Frankengregor bisect me and then paid Bronn to kill me,”
      to… “Oh sh*t! Cersei’s in peril! Gotta go back to her!” was not explained or earned.
      It felt like it came out of left field. (Even a brief soliloquy, like his S2? speech to Catelyn about the impossibility of upholding so many conflicting vows, might have justified his relapse and return to his would-be killer/sister/lover. Instead, precious screen time was wasted on the dumb fight scene with Euron.)

      So yeah: A logical conclusion to Jaime’s arc might involve going back to Cersei. That does not necessarily mean the show didn’t “ruin” it with the haphazard way it was portrayed.

      I’m reminded of a quote by the late film critic Roger Ebert, in defending his positive review of a movie that other critics had derided as cheap exploitation. Paraphrasing, Ebert said something like: “It’s not what a movie is about. It’s how it is about it.”

      “How” GoT concluded Jaime’s story, rather than the conclusion itself, was unsatisfying to many viewers.

      Now back to you, Tensor the Mage and Devil’s Advocate Always Ready With a Rebuttal* for a contrary opinion.

      * I hope you know I mean this as a compliment.

      P.S. The movie Roger Ebert was defending was “Freeway” starring a young Reese Witherspoon. I’ve raved about it here before.

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    148. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      Wait. Didn’t GRRM write the script for one of those S1 episodes involving Sansa & Arya? I’ll have to check.
      If so, I’d be more inclined to view that episode as GRRM-approved “canon.”

      For that matter, I’d suggest that Season 1 episodes were closely aligned with Big G’s vision since those episodes were based on already-published books and because he was intimately involved in production back then.

      After he stopped writing scripts (supposedly, to focus on finishing the books), and the show passed the books, it would probably be fair to say that GoT show canon diverged from GRRM ASOIAF canon.

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    149. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      PS I meant to convey that I agree with you that…

      ”I would find it hard to believe that S1, which is by far most closely adapted from the novel, would turn out to be something completely different what Martin wrote.”

      I realize that the way I composed my last comment could make it seem like I was controverting what you wrote rather than concurring with it. Sorry. 🤥

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    150. Adrianacandle,

      Allow me to throw in my two cents on some show-only fans’ perception of Sansa vs. Arya in S1:

      • I get it that tween Sansa was blinded by her infatuation with Prince Joffrey – or at least her idealized image of Prince Joffrey. (Pre-teen crushes on handsome idiots or cute mean girls are a normal part of growing up.)

      However, early on Sansa witnessed first-hand that Joffrey was more than just a pompous blowhard. He was a sadistic psycho. He started carving up an innocent boy’s face for no good reason. Yet, she barked at Arya when she tried to intervene. “You’re spoiling everything!”

      Even after Joffrey lied and said Mycah had attacked him, and that Arya (and Nymeria?) were the aggressors, Sansa lied to the king and said she didn’t see what happened. (I guess being put on the spot in front of a roomful of adults made her reluctance to implicate Joffrey somewhat understandable, but still: she knew Joffrey was a lying, malicious whack job.)

      • To that point, it’s easy to excuse Sansa’s conduct as that of an impressionable, intimidated young girl. Calling out Joffrey as a liar in front of his parents – the king and queen – and dashing her dreams of marrying the prince and becoming the future queen, was too much to expect.

      • However, in the aftermath of the incident, the reactions of Sansa did not reflect favorably on her compared with those of her sister. (In all fairness Ned didn’t come out of it with high marks either…)

      Sure, Sansa was distressed over the unfairness that her direwolf got butchered as a result of Cersei’s arbitrary and cruel suggestion to kill Lady in place of the missing Nymeria.

      • Yet, Sansa expressed no remorse whatsoever that Mycah wound up getting slaughtered. Nor did the injustice of an innocent boy getting run down and cut in half at the apparent direction of her beloved prince seem to bother her one bit. (Ned kind of blew it off too.)

      By comparison, Arya was outraged that her friend was dead because of Joffrey’s lies and Sansa’s failure to controvert them:

      (S1e3 Arya argues with Sansa about Mycah’s death at the hands of Joffrey📎)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpwOXQEPki0

      Then, Arya even felt guilty that by asking Mycah to practice with her, he wound up dead. It was not her fault, and there was no cause and effect relationship between asking the butcher’s boy to practice with her and his subsequent slaughter, yet she felt responsible for it anyway.
      Arya expressed remorse and grief. Nobody else did. Arya saw Joffrey, Sansa’s “bethrothed,” as the monster he really was:

      (S1e3 Ned comes to talk to Arya)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQowmxCq3aY

      e.g., at 1:30 – Arya feels bad about Mycah’s death

      Ned’s excuse that Sansa must take Joffrey’s side even when he is wrong was pretty lame. Ned had no retort when Arya challenged him: “But how can you let her marry someone like that?” He just changed the subject with some blather about “Winter is coming” and how the Starks have to stick together.

      • All in all, I came away with the impression that in this fictional world, bad people could get away with murder: Evil presented itself, only no one intervened.*

      * Double-meaning intended. 👸🏻

      • Unlike Sansa or even her father, Arya did not gloss over the death of Mycah as no big deal. She never let it go. She never stopped seeking justice for his murder.

      • That may be why many viewers found Arya to be so endearing: She did not look down on “common folk” as disposable or expendable.
      It broke her heart when Jory was killed and her father was hurt. She didn’t simply shrug off Syrio’s death as collateral damage. She was outraged when Sandor tried to justify assaulting and robbing Rabbit Stew Sally’s father because he was “weak” and they’d both be dead come winter.
      She sought retribution for the senseless death of a dyer’s apprentice – and placed herself in harm’s way – when it would have been easier and safer to let it go.
      It seemed like the rest of the world let it slide that Walder Frey had become Lord of Riverrun by slaughtering the Starks at the Red Wedding. Not Arya. Same thing with the camping Frey doofuses bragging about mutilating the corpses of Robb and Catelyn. Valar Morghulis, Motherf*ckers.

      • Was there a deliberate contrast in the books and show between Sansa’s mode of surviving by getting along and not making waves, versus Arya’s more… proactive approach? I can’t say.

      📎 P.S. Incidentally, Arya’s accusation in S1e3 that Joffrey killed Mycah (refuting Sansa’s assertion that the Hound killed him) because “the Hound only does what Joffrey tells him to do,” was arguably inconsistent with Arya’s later accusation against Sandor in the BwoB cave in S3 that “You murdered Mycah!”
      Arya’s initial assertion to Sansa in S1e3 was wholly aligned with Sandor’s defense in S3 that he was Joffrey’s sworn shield, and it was not his place to question princes.
      That “the gods” found Sandor innocent after trial by combat did not placate Arya.

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    151. Ten Bears,

      Was there a deliberate contrast in the books and show between Sansa’s mode of surviving by getting along and not making waves, versus Arya’s more… proactive approach? I can’t say.

      Not that I can recall. I’d say the show was pretty faithful to this — Sansa keeping her head down in an intent to survive the situation, avoiding giving Joffrey or Cersei more reasons to act out against her.

      Even with Dontos, Sansa cries out in objection to Joffrey wanting to drown him but then she grows fearful over what she’s done because she’s angered Joffrey:

      The king stood. “A cask from the cellars! I’ll see [Dontos] drowned in it.”

      Sansa heard herself gasp. “No, you can’t.”

      Joffrey turned his head. “What did you say?”

      Sansa could not believe she had spoken. Was she mad? To tell him no in front of half the court? She hadn’t meant to say anything, only . . . Ser Dontos was drunk and silly and useless, but he meant no harm.

      “Did you say I can’t? Did you?”

      “Please,” Sansa said, “I only meant . . . it would be ill luck, Your Grace . . . to, to kill a man on your name day.”

      “You’re lying,” Joffrey said. “I ought to drown you with him, if you care for him so much.”

      “I don’t care for him, Your Grace.” The words tumbled out desperately. “Drown him or have his head off, only . . . kill him on the morrow, if you like, but please . . . not today, not on your name day. I couldn’t bear for you to have ill luck . . . terrible luck, even for kings, the singers all say so . . .”

      Joffrey scowled. He knew she was lying, she could see it. He would make her bleed for this.

      “The girl speaks truly,” the Hound rasped. “What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year.” His voice was flat, as if he did not care a whit whether the king believed him or no. Could it be true? Sansa had not known. It was just something she’d said, desperate to avoid punishment.

      Unhappy, Joffrey shifted in his seat and flicked his fingers at Ser Dontos. “Take him away. I’ll have him killed on the morrow, the fool.”

      “He is,” Sansa said. “A fool. You’re so clever, to see it. He’s better fitted to be a fool than a knight, isn’t he? You ought to dress him in motley and make him clown for you. He doesn’t deserve the mercy of a quick death.”

      The king studied her a moment. “Perhaps you’re not so stupid as Mother says.” He raised his voice. “Did you hear my lady, Dontos? From this day on, you’re my new fool. You can sleep with Moon Boy and dress in motley.”

      Ser Dontos, sobered by his near brush with death, crawled to his knees. “Thank you, Your Grace. And you, my lady. Thank you.”

      These are one of the passages that started to win my sympathy for Sansa — she has a good heart but she is stuck in a terrible situation where if she sticks out her own neck and goes with her heart in this objection, she’ll be at risk herself — which she only realizes after she’s done it. An unimaginable situation for anybody, let alone an 11-12 year old girl who was been totally unprepared for this. She’s living by the skin of her teeth.

      __

      Incidentally, Arya’s accusation in S1e3 that Joffrey killed Mycah (refuting Sansa’s assertion that the Hound killed him) because “the Hound only does what Joffrey tells him to do,” was arguably inconsistent with Arya’s later accusation against Sandor in the BwoB cave in S3 that “You murdered Mycah!”
      Arya’s initial assertion to Sansa in S1e3 was wholly aligned with Sandor’s defense in S3 that he was Joffrey’s sworn shield, and it was not his place to question princes.
      That “the gods” found Sandor innocent after trial by combat did not placate Arya.

      I think to me, this makes sense on a pure emotional level because an understandably furious Arya was holding everybody who had a hand in Mycah’s murder responsible. Even if Arya understood on a logical level that Sandor was just Joffrey’s sword, he’s still the one who carried it out — even if he’s not the one who decided it should happen. So I can see why Arya would have the urge to blame Sandor too.

      If that makes sense?

        Quote  Reply

    152. Ten Bears: • That may be why many viewers found Arya to be so endearing: She did not look down on “common folk” as disposable or expendable.
      It broke her heart when Jory was killed and her father was hurt. She didn’t simply shrug off Syrio’s death as collateral damage. She was outraged when Sandor tried to justify assaulting and robbing Rabbit Stew Sally’s father because he was “weak” and they’d both be dead come winter.
      She sought retribution for the senseless death of a dyer’s apprentice – and placed herself in harm’s way – when it would have been easier and safer to let it go.

      I agree 🙂 Or, at least, that’s why I found Arya so endearing. Also, that Arya was presented as an underdog struggling in a society she doesn’t feel she fits is a pretty relatable struggle — but Arya will still go against the grain anyway, defy expectation, befriend who she likes, regardless of class.

      It brings to mind this passage from ADWD, when Arya is shedding her Cat of the Canals identity:

      She missed the friends she’d had when she was Cat of the Canals; Old Brusco with his bad back, his daughters Talea and Brea, the mummers from the Ship, Merry and her whores at the Happy Port, all the other rogues and wharfside scum. She missed Cat herself the most of all, even more than she missed her eyes. She had liked being Cat, more than she had ever liked being Salty or Squab or Weasel or Arry.

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    153. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Funny thing, Tensor. I remember saying a lot of things; I even remember changing my views in the process. I don’t remember anything too specific about Jamie’s “arc”, save from him returning to Cersei, which I found incomprehensible in the show (I seem to recall NCW also did find it so). I also speculated on his ending. Evaluating his arc based on the books (five of them are written so far) is something totally different from speculating on his ending.

        Quote  Reply

    154. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      “You know, I don’t mind if someone has their own theories about the story and such but I certainly don’t appreciate this implication that if I’m not “trained in literature”, I’m not fully getting it. Also, let’s not forget there are two more books missing, so the story is nowhere finished so all we can make is personal speculation at this point. I think when a story is written, it doesn’t exist in order to fool majority of readers and that only the “selected few” are actually able to read the story. I agree with Adriana here regarding Sansa… I don’t think there’s anything more to her in AGOT than what we got in TV show and I would find it hard to believe that S1, which is by far most closely adapted from the novel, would turn out to be something completely different what Martin wrote. Whether you have your own personal theories and interpretations, fine. But don’t call me uneducated because I don’t form my personal theories beyond the story that unfolds in front of my eyes, whether it’s text or books.”

      My Lord, part of the argumentation does not belong to you. I don’t think you misunderstood me, we’ve had a fine communication so far.
      Let’s set things straight.
      I didn’t call you uneducated. You said yourself that you are not a book person. By this I did not understand that you didn’t go to school or anything, I just understood that you are not a systematic reader. And I said, that’s fine, because anyway we can’t have the same views.
      So in reality I defended your right to have a different opinion than mine. How is that an insult to you? Our different views depend on a lot of factors and these are individual to each of us. It is normal and expected to be different, see different things, speak differently, think differently.
      Whether we like it or not, all texts are nuanced, and we are not programmed in advance to understand everything in them. And yes, I count myself in this large majority, and not in the “selected few”. Do you think that I am that arrogant? And if you do, how am I to take that? I do feel offended, because I think this came out of the blue. This isn’t you speaking.

      “Also, let’s not forget there are two more books missing, so the story is nowhere finished so all we can make is personal speculation at this point.”

      I have to point out that we were talking about book 1; this is finished, published, ready for anyone to assess. I don’t see how the books still to be written are relevant to the story of book 1, which is complete. I didn’t speculate, I analyzed a finished product according to the above mentioned factors that are pertinent to myself alone.

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    155. Mr Derp,

      There being fantasy elements doesn’t mean the media just has the freedom to do whatever it wants without any sense of logic or realism.

      “Well, they have dragons so they can do anything” is just a really dumb argument. “Oh he hated the scene where Ned Stark grew 400 feet tall and stepped on King’s Landing but he’s okay with dragons and magic.”

        Quote  Reply

    156. Ten Bears,

      However, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to feel that the way Jaime’s “arc” ended on the show was disjointed and illogical.

      As we’ve already agreed, D&D were adapting Martin’s story. He failed to provide the final books, and they wrapped it up as best they could, based on his outline and fate of each character. So I think it’s perfectly reasonable for the ending to feel “disjointed and illogical,” for Jaime and for any other character (although I don’t personally feel that way). That’s not the same thing as agreeing that D&D ruined a character’s (as-yet unfinished in the books) arc.

      …the big bathtub reveal that he became “the kingslayer” to save the lives of half a million innocent civilians…

      We don’t know if any of his tale is true. We waited all the way until “The Bells” to see wildfire caches cooking off across the city — looking puny compared to dragonfire! — and for all we know, Cersei had those caches placed. We do know he wanted to get on the good side of his captor, Brienne. He’s a handsome and charming man, and told a good story. That’s all we know for sure.

      (However, we also know that Jaime waited until his father’s army was pounding upon the gates before he killed the king he was sworn to protect. Hardly a profile in courage, that.)

      It was jarring to see Jaime confide to Tyrion in S8 that he never gave a f*ck about the people, “innocent or otherwise.” WTF???

      Jaime murdered an old woman, finding out at the very last he’d witlessly participated in a petty revenge-killing. Then he, Turncloak Tarly, and Turncloak Tarly’s damn moron son led a looting of money from farmers at the onset of Winter. This is the crime the Hound perpetrated against Rabbit Stew Sally and her father, and we can presume the results were the same, albeit on a far larger scale. So no, Jaime showed he did not give an f’ about the the people, innocent or otherwise.

      It was kind of cringeworthy to watch him “seduce” Brienne with the finesse of the juvenile delinquent on “The Simpsons” (i.e., “it’s hot in here; lemme take off my shirt”).

      He’d never had sex with anyone but Cersei; Brienne was proudly a virgin. Jaime had never any occasion to learn anything about approaching a woman; while we can assume many approached him, he turned them all down. So of course he came across as the rank amateur he very much was.

      Callously blowing off Brienne and leaving her a blubbering mess was a disservice to both characters.

      As opposed to real life, where romantic encounters always go exactly as intended, and are always very satisfying to everyone involved.

      Why did they start fighting anyway?

      If I ever encountered anyone half as annoying as Euron, I’d want to beat him to a very painful death with everything and anything I had available. (Even if he wasn’t banging my former lover.)

      So yeah: A logical conclusion to Jaime’s arc might involve going back to Cersei. That does not necessarily mean the show didn’t “ruin” it with the haphazard way it was portrayed.

      Again, D&D agreed to adapt a story. They wound up improvising from an outline.

        Quote  Reply

    157. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Tensor, I can’t remember if you’ve read the ASOIAF books. I didn’t like book Euron very much either – he is if anything more unpleasant than his show counterpart (as is Ramsay). Some people find book Euron intriguing. I didn’t particularly. Thank you, thank you D&D for cutting down the number of Greyjoy nuncles!!! (Just my opinion of course). I read an interesting comment somewhere wondering what GRRRM’s thoughts might be if he (GRRM) had written Euron as a monster (I certainly couldn’t find any redeeming features in book Euron) and then found that some readers considered Euron a cool dude!

        Quote  Reply

    158. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      I personally didn’t hate Jaime’s end, but I didn’t like it either, and it didn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

      When Jaime left Cersei at the end of season 7 he had to have known that she was all alone and would most likely die, whether from the Long Night, Dany, or her own actions.

      However, Jaime pulled a complete 180 in season 8 and went back to her as soon as he heard Cersei was in danger.

      I mean, ok, but it’s a bit all over the place.

        Quote  Reply

    159. Red Sparrow:
      Mr Derp,

      There being fantasy elements doesn’t mean the media just has the freedom to do whatever it wants without any sense of logic or realism.

      “Well, they have dragons so they can do anything” is just a really dumb argument. “Oh he hated the scene where Ned Stark grew 400 feet tall and stepped on King’s Landing but he’s okay with dragons and magic.”

      Stop everything! Some stranger on the internet disagrees with me and is getting all snarky about it!

      Thanks for the steaming hot pile of a take. I love the smell of butthurt in the morning. Have a good one!

        Quote  Reply

    160. Farimer123: Sorry just trying to figure out how to quote different sections of a comment in succession.

      I can help you out with some manual coding for formatting on WotW 🙂

      I uploaded this document to PasteBin some time ago showing some of the formatting codes that work in this comment section. To quote another post (or piece of text) manually, refer to line 11 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    161. Farimer123:

      Yay I did it! Whoa that quoted smiley face looks strange…

      Awesome! 😀

      And now that you point it out, it kind of does… an italicized smiley face…

        Quote  Reply

    162. Ten Bears,

      Well hold on. No matter how (or if) the Big Kahuna writes the end of “Jaime’s arc,” is it unfair to suggest that D&D had ruined it on the show?

      I can certainly see how a “true to life” portrayal of a guy stuck in a toxic relationship with a “hateful woman” before seeming to extract himself from it, could end up with him relapsing and going back to her – to his doom.

      However, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to feel that the way Jaime’s “arc” ended on the show was disjointed and illogical.

      Well hold on. For all you know, aside from the Riverrun and Lady Stoneheart business, Jaime’s book journey could end up being 90% the same as his showjourney. So no, it’s not fair to say his arc was ruined, at least not until the books are finished infinity years from now.

      After several seasons showing how Jaime came to embrace his noble, honorable side (with Brienne’s faith and urging), and the big bathtub reveal that he became “the kingslayer” to save the lives of half a million innocent civilians, it was jarring to see Jaime confide to Tyrion in S8 that he never gave a f*ck about the people, “innocent or otherwise.” WTF??

      When did he embrace his honorable side? Other than saving Brienne (which was nice but not motivated by honor), sending Brienne to fulfill the oath to Catelyn (which he had no faith would actually succeed), then promising to ride North to fight for the living (and fulfilling that promise), I’m blanking. Tell me: can you remember any other reasons why Jaime may have killed the Mad King, like, I don’t know… something about the last order the Mad King gave him (which is the thing that actually set Jaime over the edge)? What was that order again? Because I forgot. Saying he “didn’t give a f*ck about the people” is a bit of a misquotation. That’s Cersei’s thing. He said he “never really cared much for them”. And that’s true. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but throughout the show, Jaime isn’t exactly a walking talking personification of philanthropy. It’s plainly evident that he doesn’t hold the common folk in high regard, like when he referred to the people of King’s Landing as a “mob that spat on [Cersei] not long ago”, even when they were cheering for him. Or when he almost slaughtered every denizen of Riverrun Tywin-style just to end the stupid siege and get back to Cersei (he wasn’t bluffing – “only a fool makes threats he’s not prepared to carry out”).

      It was kind of cringeworthy to watch him “seduce” Brienne with the finesse of the juvenile delinquent on “The Simpsons” (i.e., “it’s hot in here; lemme take off my shirt”).

      Yes, because as we all know, Jaime is a master womanizer who has seduced countless maidens. He’s normally such a smooth operator, he should’ve been so much better with Brienne there. It’s not like they were both incredibly tipsy and finally acknowledging their unspoken attraction to each other which neither of them were confident in…

      Callously blowing off Brienne and leaving her a blubbering mess was a disservice to both characters. Simply declaring “I’m a hateful man” – without showing he was conflicted in any way – came off as forced.

      There are few words that can describe Jaime’s demeanor if not “callous”, especially towards Brienne. She and Jaime had a long and complicated relationship, and in the end, he became the first man she had ever been with. How could she not be a blubbering mess, or is she supposed to be a strong tough badass 24/7? And you apparently skipped over a number of scenes where Jaime seemed conflicted, namely any time he was actually in Brienne’s bed, especially right before he left. And during his goodbye, he was on the verge of tearing up, which is incredibly rare for him.

      For me, the Euron ex machina fight on the beach was illogical and a waste of screen time, with vacuous dialogue. (I could almost hear Humphrey Bogart’s voiceover channeling Rick in “Casablanca,” narrating: “Out of all the beaches on all the shorelines in all the city, he washes up on mine.”) Why did they start fighting anyway?

      Euron ex-machina? He got blasted off his ship, then proceeded to swim to the only known sandy shore of the Red Keep. While that was happening, Jaime was making his way around the Red Keep from the front gates to a secret back entrance from that beach. It makes sense that they’d encounter each other around the same time. Where are your complaints about Tywin ex-machina in Harrenhal S2, or Stannis ex-machina in S4?
      Before the fight, when Euron wasn’t going help Jaime evacuate Cersei, Jaime was just going to ignore him and walk away. But then Euron pulled a knife on Jaime and threatened his life, because 1) Jaime is Cersei’s former long-time lover and Euron isn’t about to just let him waltz in and win her back and 2) Euron’s a chaotic evil nihilistic psychopath. So yeah, those things might just start a fight, wouldn’t you agree?

      Anything remotely connected to the Cersei baby drama made me want to puke. And if Cersei’s faux? pregnancy motivated him to abandon Brienne and betray his alliance with The Living, that wasn’t demonstrated on screen, was it?

      Any of these quotes ring a bell? “Our child will never be born if the dead come south.” “You do care for one innocent. I know you do. And so does Cersei.” The unborn child was half the damn reason he came North. Cersei and he weren’t on the same page, and he decided to do everything he could to protect her and the child, even if it meant disobeying her. And he didn’t betray “the Living”. he just betrayed Daenerys and the North.

      The turnaround from “I’m so done with Cersei; she deceived me and dishonored our promise to join forces to fight the AotD; she was about to have Frankengregor bisect me and then paid Bronn to kill me,” to… “Oh sh*t! Cersei’s in peril! Gotta go back to her!” was not explained or earned. It felt like it came out of left field. (Even a brief soliloquy, like his S2? speech to Catelyn about the impossibility of upholding so many conflicting vows, might have justified his relapse and return to his would-be killer/sister/lover. Instead, precious screen time was wasted on the dumb fight scene with Euron.)

      How about this quotes? “She never fooled you. You always knew exactly what she was, and you loved her anyway.” Do you believe Jaime’s love for Cersei is conditional in some way? Did you seriously believe Jaime was going to sit idly by while the mother of his unborn child died a gruesome death all alone, just because… she hurt his feelings? Besides, Cersei using the Mountain was a bluff, as we saw literally moments after she tried it. Jaime still loved Cersei uncontrollably even after she became hellbent on executing Tyrion for Joffrey’s murder. You know Jaime would give up everything to protect his little brother, even die for him probably. If that didn’t get Jaime to turn on Cersei totally and wish harm upon her, nothing would.

        Quote  Reply

    163. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      TB: “Callously blowing off Brienne and leaving her a blubbering mess was a disservice to both characters.”

      Tensor: “As opposed to real life, where romantic encounters always go exactly as intended, and are always very satisfying to everyone involved.”

      Touché, Tensor.
      A guy broke up with Carrie by Post-It note on “Sex and the City.” So there’s that…

        Quote  Reply

    164. Farimer123,

      ”Where are your complaints about Tywin ex-machina in Harrenhal S2, or Stannis ex-machina in S4?”

      Don’t forget Brienne ex machina in S6e2 and KotV ex machina in S6e9.

        Quote  Reply

    165. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      As long as we’re on the subject of Jaime blowing off Brienne (“I’m a hateful man”)…
      Let’s listen to Grace Slick wail “I’m no good” (if you don’t mind reversing the gender):

      Musical Interlude

      🎶 Oh, spread your wings
      You’ve been too long in the cage
      Feling the range of abuses
      Oh, I’m sorry

      I’ve opened the door,
      I’ve set you free
      But can’t you see
      That I’m no good,
      I’m sorry
      ***
      Love too good
      You’ve got a love too good
      You’ve got a love too good
      For a woman like me.

      Take to the wind
      Here there’s too much pain
      Over and over again
      I’ll hurt you

      I’ve opened the door
      And I’ll set you free
      But you still can’t see
      That I’m no good!
      I’m sorry….<
      🎵

      – “Love Too Good” (1978)
      Jefferson Starship 🚀

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObyVGAagBas

      (Grace Slick’s vocals start at about 1:01)

        Quote  Reply

    166. Ten Bears:

      Farimer did a much better job of covering Jaime’s actions than I had time to do, so I thank him for doing all that.

      Jaime and Brienne staying together was the only remaining chance for a “happily ever after” ending, and having Jaime leave her destroyed that final chance. I speculate this is the reason many fans didn’t like his leaving her. But it resulted in Brienne achieving her life’s goal, which I far prefer to any variant of her abandoning or compromising that goal for a man.

        Quote  Reply

    167. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Many fans didn’t like Jaime leaving Brienne because they fundamentally misunderstood his character, seeing him as either all bad or all good. To many, he was just a bad guy becoming good, a simple redemption arc, where he was going to end up fighting honorably to save the world from apocalypse, get with Brienne, triumphantly kill his evil wicked villain sister, get the crown, save the town and Mr. Krabs! Because that’s how the story’s supposed to end, right? Good guys win, bad guys lose.

        Quote  Reply

    168. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: Jaime and Brienne staying together was the only remaining chance for a “happily ever after” ending, and having Jaime leave her destroyed that final chance. I speculate this is the reason many fans didn’t like his leaving her. But it resulted in Brienne achieving her life’s goal, which I far prefer to any variant of her abandoning or compromising that goal for a man.

      Why couldn’t Brienne have both? Why would staying with Jaime and “living happily ever after” prevent Brienne from achieving her life goals? Jaime’s the one who knighted her after all. I suspect he’d have been quite supportive of Brienne achieving her goals.

      On the contrary, Jaime completely sacrificed his own life and his own chance of living happily ever after for a woman. A woman who he had a toxic relationship with. After all, you said that Brienne sacrificing everything for a man would have been a far worse ending for her. I think it’s completely understandable and relatable for people to be unhappy with that ending for Jaime as well.

        Quote  Reply

    169. Why couldn’t Brienne have both? Why would staying with Jaime and “living happily ever after” prevent Brienne from achieving her life goals?

      Because Knights in the Kingsguard cannot marry, and in any case, I can’t see Brienne accepting an arrangement where she’s having sexual relations with a man who is under her command.

      … Jaime completely sacrificed his own life and his own chance of living happily ever after for a woman.

      He died protecting his closest female relative. That’s one of the ideals of Knighthood. Failing to protect her, for his own selfish reasons, would have violated the code both he and Brienne claimed to follow.

        Quote  Reply

    170. Mr Derp,

      While I share Tensor’s acceptance for Jaime’s ending, I don’t think I totally agree with his reading of some things. It was entirely possible for Jaime and Brienne to have a happy life together. Brienne wouldn’t have become a Kingsguard; she and Jaime would have stayed in the North most likely. Every time she and Jaime had an intimate bonding moment, there was always this longing yet mournful and sad music attached to it, like it was always this hopeful thing that would ultimately never be. Case in point: in 6×8 when Brienne is sailing down the river away from Jaime and they wave to each other. She’s his hope for a better life, floating away into the night.

        Quote  Reply

    171. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Serious question(s):

      • Why didn’t Brienne wind up as LC of QitN Sansa’s Queensguard in WF instead of King Bran’s KG in KL? After all, Brienne had pledged herself to Sansa as her sworn shield. (See scene from S6e1 below.)

      Alternatively or in addition, as Arya reminded Brienne in S7e4, Brienne had pledged to protect (or serve?) both of Catelyn’s daughters.

      • Incidentally, during Joffrey’ wedding reception in S4, Cersei had derided Brienne for flitting from one monarch’s camp to another, or something like that. Brienne “flitting” from Queen Sansa to King Bran – with no reason provided – kind of played into such an insult, and undermined Brienne’s loyalty oath(s), didn’t it?

      • My fanfic scenario would have had grumpy ol’ Sandor Clegane as Queensguard standing next to Sansa during her S8e6 closing montage coronation (or stowing away on Captain Arya’s direwolf ship). I get it that Sandor was not destined to make it out alive, though I personally would have preferred a different death for him, e.g., going out in a literal and figurative blaze of glory protecting Sansa, Arya, or both of them.

      But following established show! canon, shouldn’t Lady Brienne have served in Sansa’s Queensguard instead of Bran’s Kingsguard?

      I’m counting on you, esteemed Tensor, to provide a cogent explanation. 😉

      ———

      S6e1, Brienne saves Sansa; pledges herself as sworn shield to Sansa
      (6:44)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJemx5Eu7lw

      at 5:28 – 6:40
      Brienne offers, Sansa accepts Brienne as her sworn shield

        Quote  Reply

    172. (Supplement #2 to 10:00 am comment)

      Here’s the S4e2 exchange between Cersei and Brienne I was referring to….

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj9mYwmlmFU

      at 1:28 – 1:36
      Cersei to Brienne: “…flit from one camp to the next, serving whichever lord or lady you fancy.”

      P.S. Unless I’m mistaken: (1) GRRM wrote the script for this episode; and (2) This Cersei-Brienne exchange was not in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    173. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Oh, and another thing…

      – I suppose we can speculate that if Catelyn knew Bran wasn’t dead she would have commanded Brienne to go find Bran and serve him instead of either of her daughters (but – as Bronn reminded Tyrion in S7e4 – that’s a lot of ifs, would’ves, coulds, buts and maybes.)

      – Even after Bran showed up alive in WF in S7, Brienne didn’t transfer her loyalties to him. In fact, there weren’t really any Bran-Brienne bonding scenes, were there? Brienne never came out and stated, or behaved as if, Brandon Stark was the presumptive Lord of WF as last surviving trueborn son of Ned & Catelyn Stark and therefore her primary allegiance should be to Bran rather than Sansa.

      – Narratively speaking, Bran and Brienne had no connection. (Yes, I know, some fans said the same thing when critiquing Arya being the one to kill NK…)

      – There’d be no overriding necessity for Sansa to release Brienne from her vows to enable her to take a position in Bran’s KG, would there? It’s not as if there weren’t other knights who could serve as LC of Bran’s KG.

      – In a perfect world, Ser Brienne of Tarth would be the best candidate for Lord Commander of the KG for the ruler of the Six Kingdoms. Would that, in and of itself, justify her abandoning her oaths and allegiances?

      – Finally, I apologize if I missed a scene explaining how Brienne flitted from Camp Sansa to Camp Bran.

        Quote  Reply

    174. I don’t know all the ins and outs of it but when Elizabeth Butler-Schloss became for a time the highest ranked female judge in England there had to be some adjustment to the titles of forms and address so that she could be Lady Butler-Schloss rather than Lord Butler-Schloss. (Thinking of Brienne becoming Ser). I quite liked the French crime show ‘Engrenages’ (Spiral) though they spoke so quickly I had to watch the sub-titles. The conniving female lawyer played by Audrey Fleurot was addressed as ‘Maitre’ in court – though calling a female lawyer ‘Maitresse’ would hardly be appropriate. There’s a very old joke in the UK that ‘mistress’ is what comes between ‘Mr’ and ‘mattress’.

      Esquire has a legal meaning in the USA I believe and is gender neutral (eeh, the things you could learn watching CSI going back a few years). In the UK Bert Bloggs Esquire is another way of saying Mr Bert Bloggs – you would probably see it more written on an envelope than in general speech nowadays. I know there is a magazine called Esquire.

        Quote  Reply

    175. Ten Bears,

      “I suppose we can speculate that if Catelyn knew Bran wasn’t dead she would have commanded Brienne to go find Bran and serve him instead of either of her daughters (but – as Bronn reminded Tyrion in S7e4 – that’s a lot of ifs, would’ves, coulds, buts and maybes.”

      Correction: Bronn-Tyrion was in S4e7, NOT S7e4.

        Quote  Reply

    176. Ten Bears,

      The answer’s simple: the King/Queen in the North doesn’t have a royal guard. Robb didn’t have one. With her seat at Winterfell as opposed to a big city like King’s Landing, Sansa doesn’t really need one. Brienne’s endgame career would be the Lord Commander of a Kingsguard, and who better to serve than one of Catelyn’s own?

        Quote  Reply

    177. Farimer123,

      Yes, I agree that the show made the Jaime/Brienne romance seem almost too good to be true, which is what it turned out to be in the end.

      The argument from me is not that Jaime’s end doesn’t make sense. People have a hard time quitting terrible relationships all the time. It’s understandable, albeit frustrating.

      The argument for me is simply that it’s deeply unsatisfying from a viewer’s perspective, especially those who were rooting for him for 8 seasons. I think that’s how a lot of people feel. Not everyone, of course.

        Quote  Reply

    178. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: Because Knights in the Kingsguard cannot marry, and in any case, I can’t see Brienne accepting an arrangement where she’s having sexual relations with a man who is under her command.

      Women can’t be knights either, but Brienne is now a knight thanks to Jaime, so that argument doesn’t really work anymore. I know this is all hypothetical, but they also wouldn’t have to marry, and why would Brienne have to be under Jaime’s command anyway? Brienne could be Sansa’s Queensguard while Jaime wouldn’t need to be involved at all. Besides, Jaime seemed perfectly fine being under Brienne’s command during the Long Night, yes? Technically, when they had sex, Brienne was having sex with a subordinate under her command.

      Wasn’t Jaime expelled from the Kingsguard by Tommen anyway? Even if he was reinstated back in the Kingsguard for Cersei, he still proceeded to abandon her, which is pretty much the worst thing a king/queensguard can do. I honestly don’t know what his status would be if he ended the series alive, but I doubt he’d be beholden to anyone other than himself at that point. I’m sure Bran could pardon him if he wanted to.

        Quote  Reply

    179. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I believe that Jaime would be Brienne’s subordinate in Sansa’s Queensguard had he survived and not gone to KL to die with Cersei.

        Quote  Reply

    180. Farimer123,

      ”The answer’s simple: the King/Queen in the North doesn’t have a royal guard. Robb didn’t have one…”

      Yes, you may well be right. After all, the simplest answer is usually the right one. (- William of Occam).

      Even so, how does Brienne get around her sworn vows to serve the Stark sisters in general (see S7e4), and Sansa in particular (see S6e1). Twice she pledged her sword – first to Catelyn and then to Sansa.

      After all, and Brienne herself impressed on Jamie in haranguing him in early S4 to honor his promise to now-deceased Catelyn, a change in circumstances doesn’t excuse you from your sworn promises or render them obsolete.

      If we’re to pre-suppose there was an off-screen exchange in which Sansa released Brienne from her service or assigned her to Bran, so be it. (If Bran were a clever ruler, he could have insisted on Brienne as a compensation or as a condition of assenting to Northern independence – but no, he just said “okay” when Sansa asked/insisted.)

      No big deal. I just wanted some way to reconcile Brienne winding up as KG to Bran in KL instead of (continuing) serving Sansa in the North.

        Quote  Reply

    181. Inferred GRRM Update

      George’s winless NY Jets got trounced today, 30-10, to go to 0-5 on the season. His 0-4 NY Giants are holding a 17-10 lead against the Dallas Cowboys in the 2nd Quarter.

      Will the on-field failures of his favorite football teams prompt him to focus on his writing – or depress him so that he’s in no mood to write?

        Quote  Reply

    182. Mr Derp:
      Actually, the more I think about it, the more I believe that Jaime would be Brienne’s subordinate in Sansa’s Queensguard had he survived and not gone to KL to die with Cersei.

      I’ll caveat this by saying they could just as easily be in Bran’s Ravensguard.

        Quote  Reply

    183. Mr Derp,

      Okay. Here’s my head canon: In an off-screen side deal in exchange for Northern sovereignty, Sansa traded Brienne and Pod to Bran for a sellsword to be named later, future first-round draft pick, and cash considerations.

        Quote  Reply

    184. Ten Bears:

      To the best of my recollection, the exact details of how Brienne became Lord (Lady?) Commander of the Kingsguard to Bran the Broken were not covered in The Iron Throne. Neither was the route by which lovable-lout sellsword Bronn became Lord Paramount of Fancy Titles. 😉 (Was he even from the Reach? I cannot recall.)

      If you want me to concoct a fan-fic for you, I’d say the Queen in the North, Head of House Stark, having no further need of close personal protection, released Brienne from her vows, and King Bran then asked for Brienne’s service in his Kingsguard. It need be no more involved than that.

      Returning to Jaime, I admire his decision to protect a family member against pursuing his dalliance with Brienne. He may have been doing the right thing for the wrong reason, but he still tried. Anyone who could watch 70+ hours of Game of Thrones and yet still expect a “happily ever after” outcome for Jaime and Brienne — or for any characters, really — needed to listen more closely to Ramsay’s advice to Theon. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    185. Adrianacandle,

      🕳 🐇
      Notice of Upcoming Musical Interlude
      [Rabbit Hole Entrance: 10/1/20, 7:58 pm
      Musical Interlude Part 2, excerpted below]

      “Part 2

      • Chrissie Hynde & The Pretenders
      “Back on the Chain Gang”
      Live at “Radio 2 Home Gardens”
      September 10, 2020 Video (4:20 long)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOaCm91oy5M

      • Chrissie Hynde/The Pretenders Sept. 10, 2020
      Recorded Live at “Radio 2 Home Gardens”
      – Audio Only (24:25 long)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7-PSJq0T6M

      Set List:
      ***
      • Stop Your Sobbing (released 1979)
      at 11:04 – 13:17
      ***
      🕳 🐇

      (Upcoming Musical Interlude features crossover of Ray Davies and The Kinks + Chrissie Hynde and The Pretenders, 1964 – 2020)

        Quote  Reply

    186. Ten Bears,

      That first song was such a great song to wake up to! Second serves as a good set list to put on in the bg while doing Illustrator stuff!

      “Stop Your Sobbing” — oh, how many times I’ve heard that 😉

        Quote  Reply

    187. Mr Derp: There were a few occasions where they actually tried to demonstrate Sansa’s intelligence onscreen, but, IMO, they didn’t really work.

      For example, the scene (I think it was season 7×1?) when Sansa is walking through the Winterfell courtyard with her entourage and she stops to tell the Smiths that they aren’t making armor correctly. As if Sansa would know anything about how to make armor in the first place.

      That scene actually made me laugh out loud because of how obviously bad of an attempt it was to try and demonstrate Sansa’s all-knowing intelligence.It was just so unnecessary and a rare gaffe, IMO.

      Not to beat a dead horse, and NO sleight against Sophie Turner intended, but in addition to the out-of-left-field comment by Arya in S8e1, “She’s the smartest person I’ve ever met,” wasn’t there also an exchange between Tyrion and Jon waking up the stairs on Dragonstone in S7e3 telling us (instead of showing us) how smart Sansa has become?
      If I recall correctly, Tyrion brought up Sansa and said something like “She’s smarter than she lets on,” and Jon replied: “She’s starting to let on.”

      As for unnecessary gaffes when “try[ing] to demonstrate Sansa’s all-knowing intelligence,” I still say that concealing from the audience how the Stark kids figured out LF’s shenanigans, for the sake of one fist-pump moment when Arya’s “trial” turns into a surprise trial by ambush of LF, was a missed opportunity to show us how smart Sansa had become.

      Although it might have been more difficult to construct, a few scenes showing Sansa making logical deductions from bits and pieces of information; asking incisive questions from Arya and actually pressing for answers; and calmly deliberating instead of freaking out; would have bern more rewarding (for me).

      In addition, according to the filmed but deleted scene described by Isaac H-W, duped Sansa was about to move against Arya until deciding at the last minute to consult “CCTV Bran.” In that regard, it was Bran’s magical powers, not Sansa’s brains, that revealed LF’s treachery.

      I wanted to see the smart and savvy Sansa we were told about, by other characters and by the showrunners. Like you noted, giving armorers tips on adding insulation didn’t quite cut it.

      There were so many other open-ended mysteries that I thought Sansa would solve to demonstrate her evolved intellect. For example:
      – Figuring out the identity of the face-masked girl who turned Walder Frey into a Pez dispenser and left behind his stunned child wife with a message to people who “asked what happened here.”
      – Or better yet, piecing together that LF had scammed Catelyn with a bogus “hostage exchange” to deceive her into freeing the Kingslayer.
      – Or, without relying on Bran-O-Vision, comparing LF’s irreconcilable statements about to whom the knife belonged, to deduce that he was behind the assassination attempt on Bran. (The way it was left at LF’s “trial” was simply that LF had lied when he told Cat the knife belonged to Tyrion when it was really LF’s – which was not really a lie: LF had admitted the knife belonged to him, before losing it in a bet to Tyrion. Left unaddressed was LF’s unequivocal denial in S7e4
      when Bran asked him point blank, “Do you know who this belonged to?”)
      I didn’t quite get how the accusation (by Arya) that LF lied to Cat somehow constituted “treason.”)

      (continued in next Comment)

        Quote  Reply

    188. Ten Bears,

      For the sake of comparison, I’m trying to remember the details from the movie “Zero Dark Thirty” when Maya (Jessica Chastain) is able to extrapolate from an otherwise forthcoming detainee’s seemingly innocuous denial of knowing a certain low-level functionary, was actually a significant clue to finding the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.

      I’ll have to try to find that scene in which Maya explains her reasoning to her colleague, played by Jennifer Ehle aka Catelyn Stark in GoT’s unaired pilot.

      Maya’s deductions were impressive. They showed how smart she was. I had hoped we’d get something like that from GoT’s redheaded heroine.

        Quote  Reply

    189. Ten Bears:

      In addition, according to the filmed but deleted scene described by Isaac H-W, duped Sansa was about to move against Arya until deciding at the last minute to consult “CCTV Bran.” In that regard, it was Bran’s magical powers, not Sansa’s brains, that revealed LF’s treachery.

      The scene was deleted, so that version of the story no longer exists. I guess it can still be Sansa who figures it all out, then.

      I agree we were told, not shown, Sansa’s character advancement. Again, I put that on Martin, who has so far left Sansa in the Vale. D&D had to get her all the way into becoming Queen of the North on their own, and they did what they could with the time they had.

      The two scenes which showed how shrewd she’d become were in the Library at Winterfell, when she sees right through Dany, and then when she tells Tyrion about Jon’s parentage. She had learned well from another blonde queen and Baelish, respectively!

      Speaking of that devil: “…LF had admitted the knife belonged to him, before losing it in a bet to Tyrion.”

      Which was also probably a lie, as it required Tyrion to bet against Jaime. I fell for that the first time I heard it, as did Cat; but after learning more about the Lannisters, the chance that Tyrion would bet against Jaime seems small indeed. It’s easy to get fooled on your first time in King’s Landing! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    190. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: and then when she tells Tyrion about Jon’s parentage.

      I don’t know how smart this was. With this, Sansa was kindling a civil war and risking many lives, including her brother’s. She was positioning Jon as an unwilling rival to somebody who Sansa viewed as a power-hungry tyrant that’d stop at nothing to get the throne. And if not Dany, with Dany’s supporters, sparking yet another war which the North would be hard-pressed to win in their current state.

      I’d speculate the smart thing to do would be to get into Dany’s good graces, make her see how the North wouldn’t really be of great benefit to Dany’s rule but possibly a burden on resources (the North is far, the land isn’t very productive, it’s cold, takes the longest the mobilize troops out of…), and/or bide her time until the North was strong enough to fight Dany.

      But trying to stir up more conflict right when another war has ended…?

      It reminds me of the Knights of the Vale conundrum. The writers wanted Sansa to be smart but she was making some odd decisions to this end, putting her brother(s) in the line of fire for what she wanted — and I don’t think the writers were really trying to go for that.

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    191. Ten Bears:
      Ten Bears,

      For the sake of comparison, I’m trying to remember the details from the movie “Zero Dark Thirty” when Maya (Jessica Chastain) is able to extrapolate from an otherwise forthcomingdetainee’s seemingly innocuous denial of knowing a certain low-level functionary, was actually a significant clue to finding the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.

      I’ll have to try to find that scene in which Maya explains her reasoning to her colleague, played by Jennifer Ehle aka Catelyn Stark in GoT’s unaired pilot.

      Maya’s deductions were impressive. They showed how smart she was. I had hoped we’d get something like that from GoT’s redheaded heroine.

      I thought the show did a great job of demonstrating Dany’s intelligence in 3×4 when she took Astapor and the Unsullied. It turned out she knew Valyrian the entire time even though she acted like she didn’t understand. She played Astapor the entire way right up until she pretended to give a dragon for the Unsullied.

      If only she maintained this intelligence when she got to Westeros. It kind of felt like everyone’s IQ level in Dany’s crew dropped dramatically once she landed in Westeros.

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    192. If only she maintained this intelligence when she got to Westeros. It kind of felt like everyone’s IQ level in Dany’s crew dropped dramatically once she landed in Westeros.

      As Archmaester Wormwydd once taught us larval Maester-wannabees, “The ancient Rule of Succession holds the monarch’s IQ must never exceed his boot size, or the Realms shall suffer.” The long and prosperous reign of King Robert would seem to confirm this ancient wisdom. 😉

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    193. Adrianacandle,

      ”I’d speculate the smart thing to do would be to get into Dany’s good graces.”

      Right! That is what I had expected from Sansa “Courtesy & Grace” Stark – not snide remarks and stink eye. Why not pretend to be Dany’s best friend and ingratiate herself to the Dragon Queen?

      As you observed, Sansa set the stage for a civil war with uncertain, dangerous outcomes – at the worst possible time.

      Oh, and breaking her promise to Jon – after apologizing to Jon for concealing KotV and acknowledging his reply, “we have to trust each other,” was not what I would call “shrewd.”

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    194. Ten Bears,

      You know, I think Sansa will be smart in the books, we’ll see her learning and employing “courtesy is a lady’s armour”, I think we will see a shrewdness to Sansa. But in the show, I think its demonstration was lacking. I think Sansa’s intelligence is an element the showrunners were trying to include in the adaptation but… it has some logistical problems. Problems that I don’t think were helped by changing Sansa’s storyline post-season 4.

      However, if GRRM had finished his books by the time D&D got to this point, perhaps it would have played out better.

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    195. Mr Derp,

      ”If only she maintained this intelligence when she got to Westeros. It kind of felt like everyone’s IQ level in Dany’s crew dropped dramatically once she landed in Westeros.”

      Must be something in the water on Dragonstone.
      Tyrion, Jon, and Varys all seemed to get chemical lobotomies in early S7.

      Or else they developed a variation of Tourette’s:
      “She is muh Kween! I dun wann it.” – JS
      (“I think I’ll discuss treason out in the open.”) – V
      “Your baby, your baby, your baby.” – TL

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    196. Regarding Sansa, I honestly wonder what GRRM has in plans for her… because according to Benioff and Weiss, they were already planning to bring her story North regarding book4/5 story when they were making S2. So it seems leaving her in the Vale was always out of question for them. And honestly, considering how bloated books 4 and 5 are with characters and separate stories, I don’t see some big amount of chapters for her in following books, unless her story quickly merges with other major characters. So I wonder whether she’s even supposed to be “Class 1” character in the novels.

        Quote  Reply

    197. Adrianacandle,

      She was positioning Jon as an unwilling rival to somebody who Sansa viewed as a power-hungry tyrant that’d stop at nothing to get the throne.

      Jon’s better claim was always going to be a problem, because Bran and Sam knew it as well. Recall that Sam told Jon because Sam was upset at learning that Dany had included Dickon in her Tarly-que. In a feudal society, the mere presence of someone with a better claim will cause trouble. (This actually happened in modern-day England, after the abdication of Edward. He wanted to return to England, but there was no way to do this after his brother had become king.) Anyone who opposed Dany for any reason could always back Jon. Therefore, Jon being alive and on Westeros made him a threat to Dany, and we know how Dany disposed of threats.

      Thus, Sansa faced a choice: reveal the information at a time and place of her choosing, or allow Dany to take the throne. Dany would be even more powerful after ascension, so Sansa figured to act sooner rather than later. Waiting held possibly larger risks for her and her family, and she’d learned the hard way what had happened when her father had waited too long to act.

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    198. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: Recall that Sam told Jon because Sam was upset at learning that Dany had included Dickon in her Tarly-que.

      Well, Bran told Sam to tell Jon, that he needed to be the one to tell Jon. Which is something that is fueling the Evil Bran Mastermind theories.

      However, it doesn’t look like Sam was planning on spreading the truth of Jon’s heritage and in actuality, Dany wasn’t making any moves to dispose of Jon either. However, Sansa viewed Dany as this power-hungry tyrant who’d stop at nothing and still put Jon in Dany’s way of the throne. By breaking her word to Jon to keep this secret with the intent to undermine Dany, Sansa herself is one of the reasons the truth was catching fire (although, I have no idea why Tyrion told Varys). I don’t know what Sansa was thinking would happen with this view — to Jon or to the North. The North would be ravaged by yet more war, a war they’d likely lose. Again, kind of like with the Battle of the Bastards, she was risking her brother’s life, as well as many others, for something Sansa wanted (but I don’t think this is what the writers were going for). And I don’t think in either scenario, Sansa’s choices made much sense.

      Thus, Sansa faced a choice: reveal the information at a time and place of her choosing, or allow Dany to take the throne. Dany would be even more powerful after ascension, so Sansa figured to act sooner rather than later. Waiting held possibly larger risks for her and her family, and she’d learned the hard way what had happened when her father had waited too long to act.

      Yet I don’t think Sansa kindling a war now made any sense — a smart and savvy Sansa would know she didn’t have the forces to defeat Dany at this point and there’d be other ways of working on getting what she’d want, like utilizing “courtesy is a lady’s armor”. And at the time Sansa decided to break her promise to Jon and tell Tyrion in hopes of preventing Dany from being queen, Dany still had two dragons as well while the Northern forces were considerably depleted and tired.

      So I don’t know what Sansa was hoping for or expecting. It just didn’t seem like a smart choice to me.

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    199. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Something I find interesting is how to many fans (as far as I’m concerned with the forums), Jon being a Targaryen was this positive glorified thing regarding him as a character. I think this idea was very “romanticised”, especially in regards to Jon and Dany as a couple… in fact, I even saw comments glorifying Targaryen incest if House Targaryen gets restored through Jon and Dany. But it turned out Jon being a Targaryen was everything else but “romantic” and in fact brought a lot of tension to the story, despite the fact only a few people got to know about it in first place.

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    200. Adrianacandle: However, it doesn’t look like Sam was planning on spreading the truth of Jon’s heritage and in actuality, Dany wasn’t making any moves to dispose of Jon either. However, Sansa viewed Dany as this power-hungry tyrant who’d stop at nothing and still put Jon in Dany’s way of the throne. By breaking her word to Jon to keep this secret with the intent to undermine Dany, Sansa herself is one of the reasons the truth was catching fire (although, I have no idea why Tyrion told Varys). I don’t know what Sansa was thinking would happen with this view — to Jon or to the North. The North would be ravaged by yet more war, a war they’d likely lose. Again, kind of like with the Battle of the Bastards, she was risking her brother’s life, as well as many others, for something Sansa wanted (but I don’t think this is what the writers were going for). And I don’t think in either scenario, Sansa’s choices made much sense.

      Yes, had it not been for Jon’s decision to kill Dany I think Sansa, the North, and Westeros would’ve been completely screwed.

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    201. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas: Regarding Sansa, I honestly wonder what GRRM has in plans for her… because according to Benioff and Weiss, they were already planning to bring her story North regarding book4/5 story when they were making S2. So it seems leaving her in the Vale was always out of question for them. And honestly, considering how bloated books 4 and 5 are with characters and separate stories, I don’t see some big amount of chapters for her in following books, unless her story quickly merges with other major characters. So I wonder whether she’s even supposed to be “Class 1” character in the novels.

      D&D did note it was their intention to expand Sansa’s storyline because she was a favourite of theirs. I don’t think Sansa will be a major-major character in the following books but I think D&D wanted to turn Sansa into a “Class 1 character” for their adaptation. I think Sansa will make differences in the coming books but I don’t think her role will be quite as big from how D&D tell it:

      “Sansa is a character we care about almost more than any other, and the Stark sisters have from the very beginning been two characters who have fascinated us the most,” said showrunner David Benioff. “We got very lucky in casting because it’s so hard to cast good kids. Even if they come in and do a great audition, it’s so hard to know if they’re going to quite literally grow into the parts. With Sansa and Arya in particular, their storylines have become quite dark. It was such a gamble and the fact that they’ve both become such great wonderful actresses is a bit of a miracle.”

      And it’s because of Turner’s strength, Benioff continued, that it made sense to give Sansa a dramatic storyline this season and to use Ramsay’s engagement for that very purpose. In fact, the showrunners first thought about putting Sansa and Ramsay together back when they were writing season 2. “We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season,” Benioff said. “If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was as subplot we loved from the books, but it used a character that’s not in the show.”

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    202. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      ”“I’m not going to swear an oath I can’t uphold. Talk about my father, if you want, tell me that’s the attitude that got him killed. But when enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies, and lies won’t help us in this fight.”

      – Jon Snow S7e7

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    203. Mr Derp: Yes, had it not been for Jon’s decision to kill Dany I think Sansa, the North, and Westeros would’ve been completely screwed.

      But nobody could foresee that the crazy switch would suddenly turn on and Dany would go full on Mad Queen, and persist in her lunacy even after Dany’s Inferno.

      Until that happened there was no justification for assassinating Dany.

      Supposedly “loyal” advisors questioning her or trying to replace her with a “better” option, and ungrateful subjects trying to undermine her? That was treason, wasn’t it?

      Of course, once she started yapping about “liberating” the whole continent – including WF – just like she’d just “liberated” KL, it was obvious Sansa and the North were screwed and Jon felt he had no choice but to put her down.

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    204. Regarding Sansa i think she is bringimg the Vale Army north. It may happen differently as i highly doubt they will arrive last minute like in the show but will happen.

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    205. Adrianacandle,

      So I don’t know what Sansa was hoping for or expecting. It just didn’t seem like a smart choice to me.

      It was less of “smart” choice than, “do it now, or risk not having a future.”

      If Sansa was indeed the only character to see Dany for what she truly could become, then Sansa really had no choice but to act quickly to undermine Dany. Sansa had learned from her father that delay could be fatal, and she’d learned from Baelish to unleash chaos and take advantage of whatever resulted. So, she acted quickly and moved to gain as she could. As it turned out, she did exactly the right thing — and she realized full gain from it, too: “The Queen in the North!”

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    206. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: It was less of “smart” choice than, “do it now, or risk not having a future.”

      If Sansa was indeed the only character to see Dany for what she truly could become, then Sansa really had no choice but to act quickly to undermine Dany. Sansa had learned from her father that delay could be fatal, and she’d learned from Baelish to unleash chaos and take advantage of whatever resulted. So, she acted quickly and moved to gain as she could. As it turned out, she did exactly the right thing — and she realized full gain from it, too: “The Queen in the North!”

      I’d call this more luck than intelligence. Sansa still was kindling a doomed war, risking the lives of Jon and the North (as well as anybody else who got caught in the crossfire).

      Additionally, Sansa, herself, had a hand in pushing Dany to this edge by manifesting Dany’s fear and spreading the secret to deliberately undermine her, proving Dany right — whereupon Varys betrays Dany. Sansa was one of the reasons why Dany reached her limit. She had a hand in causing this situation.

      I can’t say Sansa’s gamble was a smart one. She got lucky — in a monkey’s paw sort of way because she ended up ruling alone, without her family.

      As we discussed last week, Jon didn’t want to kill Dany — even after she demolished a city. He was willing to give her another chance if Dany agreed to be merciful. It’s only when Dany doubled down on no mercy and burning the world to start it anew that Jon made that reluctant choice, a choice he still can’t feel right about.

      So unless Sansa had visions of the future, could anticipate Varys’s betrayal would be one of the factors that drove her to the edge and counted on Dany burning down a city, declaring world domination via fire and blood afterward and giving a concrete reason for her assassination (which wouldn’t be a good look for Sansa considering it’d have her be willing to sacrifice the population of King’s Landing to put Bran and the throne and get Northern independence)… I mean, I think Sansa got lucky more than reaping the benefits of any kind of intelligent plan. I’m more inclined to think these developments happened because the plot needed them to happen in order to get to this end.

      I think there were way smarter ways for Sansa to go about getting what she wanted from Dany, like getting into her good graces and utilizing honey rather than vinegar.

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    207. Adrianacandle: utilizing honey rather than vinegar.

      Btw, I learned recently that to some (perhaps many?), ‘utilize’ is a pretentious and useless word and I should be using ‘use’ instead. It’s looked upon as an overcomplicated and multi-syllable version of the same word.

      See, I didn’t know that! I grew up hearing both ‘utilize’ and ‘use’ and I had thought in some instances, ‘utilize’ sounded better even if it meant the same thing X_X

      I guess there’s drama over everything though — including canning tomatoes and this lovely candle rant:

      (an excellent reenactment using a real rant about candles!)

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    208. Adrianacandle,

      See, I didn’t know that! I grew up hearing both ‘utilize’ and ‘use’ and I had thought in some instances, ‘utilize’ sounded better even if it meant the same thing X_X

      If there is a linguistic battle this engineer would fight, it would be to restore the true meaning of “utilize” (or ‘utilise,’ for the Brits). The difference between “use” and “utilize” is elegantly simple: one uses a screwdriver to drive screws, whilst one utilizes a screwdriver to open a can of paint, or as a chisel, etc.

      (The earliest mangling of “utilize” into “sounds fancier than just plain ol’ use” known to me is in the American military, which seems to have coined the phrase “resource utilization” to describe how much an asset — specifically, a transport aircraft — got used over a given period of time.)

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    209. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: If there is a linguistic battle this engineer would fight, it would be to restore the true meaning of “utilize” (or ‘utilise,’ for the Brits). The difference between “use” and “utilize” is elegantly simple: one uses a screwdriver to drive screws, whilst one utilizes a screwdriver to open a can of paint, or as a chisel, etc.

      (The earliest mangling of “utilize” into “sounds fancier than just plain ol’ use” known to me is in the American military, which seems to have coined the phrase “resource utilization” to describe how much an asset — specifically, a transport aircraft — got used over a given period of time.)

      Thanks for this! (And are you an engineer? Most of my friends are engineers! …. Meanwhile, I went to art school 🙁 )

      So have I been using the word correctly? And the distinction you made between ‘use’ and ‘utilize’ — would ‘utilize’ be more “applying use to” per a screwdriver being utilized to open a paint can or as a chisel?

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    210. Adrianacandle,

      “So have I been using the word correctly? And the distinction you made between ‘use’ and ‘utilize’ — would ‘utilize’ be more “applying use to” per a screwdriver being utilized to open a paint can or as a chisel?”

      Exactly right on all counts! Let’s restore the valid meaning of “utilize” via proper use! 🙂

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    211. Ten Bears:
      Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      ” If Sansa was indeed the only character to see Dany for what she truly could become, then Sansa really had no choice but to act quickly to undermine Dany.”

      Then she should’ve assassinated Dany.

      How, exactly, would Sansa have accomplished this ultimate violation of Winterfell’s hospitality? Dany’s personal protection included highly trained, perfectly disciplined, fanatically loyal Unsullied warriors — and two highly intelligent dragons. Even if Arya could kill Dany, Sansa didn’t know Arya could even try. To Sansa, Arya was an incorrigible weirdo who’d somehow learned to fight, not a highly-skilled assassin who could hide in plain sight. (And even Arya’s use of faces might not help in this case, as the Unsullied had known each other since childhood, and might easily recognize any imperfection in Arya’s impersonation of one of their own.)

      Recall that Jon got close enough to Dany only because: (a) As Warden of the North, he outranked all of the Unsullied, (b) Drogon recognized him as a Targ’ dragon-rider, and (c) Dany still wanted Jon’s approval and affection. He needed — and he alone had — all three of those advantages, which is why Tyrion implored him to perform the assassination.

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    212. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      I have no stake in this particular discussion, but Sansa was alone with Dany in 8×2.

      I do agree though that would’ve been a rather major violation of guest rights.

      Although, this is where the “Bran problem” comes in play for me. Bran could’ve just told Sansa what Dany was going to do to KL. Then they’d have a built-in reason to kill her, guest or not. That would make a mess of things though, with the Unsullied/Dothraki there to defend Dany if she died, p;lus two dragons.

      Although, they didn’t do anything when Dany died in 8×6, so who knows.

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    213. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      How, exactly, would Sansa have accomplished this ultimate violation of Winterfell’s hospitality? Dany’s personal protection included highly trained, perfectly disciplined, fanatically loyal Unsullied warriors — and two highly intelligent dragons. Even if Arya could kill Dany, Sansa didn’t know Arya could even try. To Sansa, Arya was an incorrigible weirdo who’d somehow learned to fight, not a highly-skilled assassin who could hide in plain sight. (And even Arya’s use of faces might not help in this case, as the Unsullied had known each other since childhood, and might easily recognize any imperfection in Arya’s impersonation of one of their own.)

      I’m just going to throw some hypotheticals out here:

      Since Sansa had apparently recognized early on who Dany would become and Dany was eating/drinking at Winterfell, poison. It would absolutely be a violation of guest-right but Jon was having to become a queenslayer and kinslayer, killing somebody he still loved after she went berserk and wouldn’t stop. I mean, Sansa broke her promise to Jon and was risking all-out war by pressing his unwanted claim against his wishes, putting his life in jeopardy as well as many others and had a role to play in pushing Dany to the edge as she sought to deliberately undermine her.

      But I don’t even think Sansa had to kill Dany. I think Sansa had better options before Dany decided to do a one-sided Purge on King’s Landing. She could have used courtsey and grace, not outright antagonism, so Dany wouldn’t have Sansa’s number right away. Maybe take a page from Margaery’s book? 🙂

      As for Arya, she wouldn’t need to impersonate an Unsullied (or even talk much) for that long. Plus, she had an amazing ability to slip in and out almost silently and undetected. The impersonation would act as an extra insurance. It’s not like she was having to live, eat, and sleep with the other Unsullied. It’d be for like, an hour at most.

      I don’t know how much Sansa knew about Arya’s face-swapping techniques but she could have discussed something with Arya. She knew Arya was a skilled fighter at least.

      Just some hypotheticals! 🙂

      As for Jon getting past Drogon, Jon had no intention to betray Dany at that point so I don’t think it’s so much to do with Jon being a Targaryen or dragonrider as much as Drogon knowing who Jon was. Plus, Jon was willing to give Dany another chance if she only agreed to show mercy — and if Dany had lied about showing mercy or even if she agreed but changed her mind after, well…

      Sansa was definitely playing with a lot of uncertainty, risk, and fire here. And I think Sansa had a hand in worsening the situation when she didn’t need to take that route at all.

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    214. Mr Derp: The Room is the gift that keeps on giving 🙂

      It really is! Here, they’ve done a few midnight audience-participation screenings of The Room, including throwing spoons at the screen! (Had you ever noticed how every framed photo in that movie is of a spoon?)

      Did you ever read the book that covered the making of The Room? It’s by the actor who played Mark. It’s a bizarre and fascinating story which creates more questions than it does answers. Like how did Tommy Wiseau have a bottomless bank account, who is he, where is he from — all Unsolved Mysteries. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

      The Room really is… a miracle XD

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    215. Mr Derp: Although, this is where the “Bran problem” comes in play for me. Bran could’ve just told Sansa what Dany was going to do to KL. Then they’d have a built-in reason to kill her, guest or not. That would make a mess of things though, with the Unsullied/Dothraki there to defend Dany if she died, p;lus two dragons.

      Although, they didn’t do anything when Dany died in 8×6, so who knows.

      Oh, good points — all these. And it would cause a mess, you’re right. Yet they didn’t do anything in 8×06 either…

      I swear, lorazepam works wonders 😉

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    216. New House Words and Sigil for Arya in Braavos

      S5e3 Arya vs. the Waif (6:03 long)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKEDKhN9nLQ

      at 0:35 – 0:48

      Waif: “….Who are you?”
      Arya: “No one.”
      (Waif whacks Arya with a stick)
      Arya: “Ow! C*nt!”
      Waif: “A lie, a sad little lie. Who are you?”
      Arya: “I told you, I’m no -“
      (Waif hits her again)
      Arya: “Do that again and -“
      (Waif hits her again, knocks her down)
      Waif: “Who are you?”
      Arya: “You’re about to find out.”

      —-
      Forget “Winter is Coming.”
      New words for Arya Stark:

      “F*ck Around and Find Out”

      Sigil:

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Edss6VNXYAMds8_.jpg

      (credit to Rick Wilson, former Republican political strategist)

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    217. Adrianacandle,

      “Additionally, Sansa, herself, had a hand in pushing Dany to this edge by manifesting Dany’s fear and spreading the secret to deliberately undermine her, proving Dany right — whereupon Varys betrays Dany. Sansa was one of the reasons why Dany reached her limit. She had a hand in causing this situation.”

      Interesting, isn’t it, how Sansa helped to create the situation she feared. Just as Dany and Jon helped win the Battle of Winterfell — after giving the NK the dragon he needed to breach The Wall. Much of the end of the story consisted of characters creating their own problems. Sansa had “studied” under Cersei, and Cersei was the absolute expert at creating her own problems and enemies where none previously existed, so perhaps Sansa’s unwitting destabilization of Dany was a result of Cersei’s influence.

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    218. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: Interesting, isn’t it, how Sansa helped to create the situation she feared. Just as Dany and Jon helped win the Battle of Winterfell — after giving the NK the dragon he needed to breach The Wall. Much of the end of the story consisted of characters creating their own problems. Sansa had “studied” under Cersei, and Cersei was the absolute expert at creating her own problems and enemies where none previously existed, so perhaps Sansa’s unwitting destabilization of Dany was a result of Cersei’s influence.

      Actually, yes. The NK getting a dragon as the result of the wight mission to provide proof to Cersei in order to get a temporary truce gave the NK an expressway into Westeros, expediting his entrance, while Sansa had a hand in creating the situation she feared. I can agree with you there.

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    219. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Oh! I mentioned this in another message but I’m not sure if you saw it.

      Have you ever heard of The Spacechild’s Mother Goose?

      It has such lovely plays on nursery rhymes such as these:

      Little Bo-Peep
      Has lost her sheep,
      The radar has failed to find them.
      They’ll all, face to face,
      Meet in parallel space,
      Preceding their leaders behind them.

      Probable-Possible, my black hen,
      She lays eggs in the Relative When.
      She doesn’t lay eggs in the Positive Now
      Because she’s unable to Postulate How.

      And if I’m remembering another one correctly…

      Hyperspace is high and wide,
      Real-space is just outside.

      😀

      I thought of you because it was a book my engineer friend, Jen, found and it gave my dad and his fellow scientists some chortles 😉

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    220. Adrianacandle,

      Oh! I mentioned this in another message but I’m not sure if you saw it.

      Have you ever heard of The Spacechild’s Mother Goose?

      Yes, I saw that! Thank you very much. I have added it to the book queue for when my child gets closer to reading age.

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    221. Adrianacandle,

      ”Oh! I mentioned this in another message but I’m not sure if you saw it.

      Have you ever heard of The Spacechild’s Mother Goose?

      It has such lovely plays on nursery rhymes such as these:

      Little Bo-Peep
      Has lost her sheep,
      The radar has failed to find them.
      They’ll all, face to face,
      Meet in parallel space,
      Preceding their leaders behind them.”

      Oh dear. I have a moral dilemma. I was going to respond with a link to a controversial comedian’s “plays” on Mother Goose nursery rhymes from thirty years ago that aren’t quite as lovely by today’s standards. (Imagine a revisionist poet so foul-mouthed he makes The Hound sound like a choir boy. 🎲)

      Hmmm. Maybe I’ll post with a warning… ⚠️

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    222. Ten Bears: Oh dear. I have a moral dilemma. I was going to respond with a link to a controversial comedian’s “plays” on Mother Goose nursery rhymes from thirty years ago that aren’t quite as lovely by today’s standards. (Imagine a revisionist poet so foul-mouthed he makes The Hound sound like a choir boy. 🎲)

      Hmmm. Maybe I’ll post with a warning… ⚠️

      I say: do it!!

      Part of my grad thesis (“The Damned and Forsaken”) was examining nursery rhymes as cautionary tales which lent itself to the interpretation of the Obscene Superego take. And I made a few… rhymes… myself and animated them.

      (In actuality, it was partially an elaborate excuse and cover to whine about not being an only child and… making my grad thesis about that. So yikes. Just like how I went to grad school to avoid entering the real world.)

      So I love ANY take on nursery rhymes! 😀

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    223. Farimer123,

      It was entirely possible for Jaime and Brienne to have a happy life together. Brienne wouldn’t have become a Kingsguard; she and Jaime would have stayed in the North most likely.

      Thank you for validating my point, about Brienne having to abandon her life’s ambition to get a man. Lord (Lady?) Commander of the Kingsguard is the pinnacle of Knighthood on Westeros. I’m glad Brienne never even got the chance to “settle for less” with Jaime.

      Jaime’s demise fits both his character arc and Cersei’s foreshadowing to Ned — thus, all the way back in Season One! — that she and Jaime would die together.

      Brienne’s fate fits her character arc as well. Westeros is simply too sexist for her to reach the height of her ambition and have a man. She accepted that reality a long time ago, and is at peace with it.

      (Brienne becoming the badass epitome of Knighthood also may help some viewers with the crushing disappointment of that, um, other badass female character turning out to be a mass-murdering tyrant who got killed by her lover.)

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    224. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      ”Jaime’s demise fits both his character arc and Cersei’s foreshadowing to Ned — thus, all the way back in Season One! — that she and Jaime would die together.”

      Wasn’t there also a scene on the beach in Dorne with Bronn in S5 when they talk about how they’d like to die and Jaime says “in the arms of the woman I love” or something like that?

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    225. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: Thank you for validating my point, about Brienne having to abandon her life’s ambition to get a man. Lord (Lady?) Commander of the Kingsguard is the pinnacle of Knighthood on Westeros. I’m glad Brienne never even got the chance to “settle for less” with Jaime.

      This is simply not true based on what we saw on-screen.

      Jaime was Brienne’s subordinate during the Long Night. It was an honor for him. There’s no reason why she would’ve had to “settle” for anything if she continued a relationship with Jaime.

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    226. Damn edit timer.

      I was going to say that, as head of the Kingsguard, I concede that she couldn’t have a family with Jaime, which would cause an issue.

      However, as we saw in season 8, tradition isn’t really that much of a barrier to change. At least, not the way we thought. Jaime knighted Brienne even though it was against tradition. I think Bran would’ve been fine with them being together, but we’ll never know.

      I’m basically just following the trajectory of where I think their relationship would go at the series’ end had Jaime not gone back to Cersei. I believe they would’ve been together, and Bran would’ve allowed Brienne to be Kingsguard too, but maybe that’s just my hopeful nature!

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    227. The new book “Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon” seems to have some interesting stuff about GRRM’s intention to take major aspects of ASOIAF’s storyline in a very different direction to GOT:

      https://www.businessinsider.in/entertainment/news/george-r-r-martin-says-littlefinger-would-never-have-turned-sansa-over-to-ramsay-if-he-had-his-way/articleshow/78628576.cms

      Instead of keeping Sansa Stark in the Vale, Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish married her to the sadistic Ramsay Bolton.

      In a new book by Entertainment Weekly’s James Hibberd, “Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon,” Martin emphasizes that this particular storyline would have never happened in his version of the characters.

      “My Littlefinger would have never turned Sansa over to Ramsay,” Martin said in an interview for the book. “Never. He’s obsessed with her. Half the time he thinks she’s the daughter he never had — that he wishes he had, if he’d married Catelyn. And half the time he thinks she is Catelyn, and he wants her for himself.”

      “He’s not going to give her to somebody who would do bad things to her. That’s going to be very different in the books,” he added.

      Apparently Rickon is going to play a much bigger part in GRRM’s storyline too: https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-important-plans-rickon-stark-2020-9

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    228. Jai:
      The new book “Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon” seems to have some interesting stuff about GRRM’s intention to take major aspects of ASOIAF’s storyline in a very different direction to GOT:

      https://www.businessinsider.in/entertainment/news/george-r-r-martin-says-littlefinger-would-never-have-turned-sansa-over-to-ramsay-if-he-had-his-way/articleshow/78628576.cms

      Apparently Rickon is going to play a much bigger part in GRRM’s storyline too: https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-important-plans-rickon-stark-2020-9

      Interesting. I think D&D also wanted to completely eliminate Rickon from the show altogether, but GRRM wasn’t on board with that.

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    229. Mr Derp,

      ”However, as we saw in season 8, tradition isn’t really that much of a barrier to change. At least, not the way we thought. Jaime knighted Brienne even though it was against tradition…”

      I’d suggest it’s difficult to use the books’ template of lore and tradition for the show, especially after S5 or S6 when the showrunners were on their own to fill in the narrative gaps left by George the Procrastinator. Some of the new “rules” seemed to be made up on an ad hoc basis or not (explained) at all.

      In addition to glass ceiling breaker Brienne of F*cking Tarth as Lord/Lady Commander,
      some fans were left wondering how Citadel dropout/book thief Samwell Tarly wound up as Grandmaester at the end – and presumably, with a pseudo-spouse and two kids.

      Appointing Bronn as Master of Coin and Lord of Highgarden seemed to be payment under a personal side deal extracted from Tyrion under duress rather than through traditional lines of succession and entitlement, or even based on merit. (Ser Bronn “I don’t know how a loan works” of the Blackwater as Secretary of the Treasury: what could go wrong?)

      Maybe when the whole system of familial succession for designating kings went out the window, so did all of the other traditional rules?

      …All of which could lead to uncertainty, patronage, back room deals, bribery, and corruption…

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    230. Mr Derp,

      ”However, as we saw in season 8, tradition isn’t really that much of a barrier to change.”

      (Addendum to 11:09 am reply):

      Just spitballing here:

      Maybe the showrunners were aiming to make a progressive statement about traditional roles and rules, but pulled back from overt speechifying lest they be accused of contorting GRRM’s medieval-based fictional universe into a platform for social justice warriors’ agendas?

      The script did touch on this a few times, e.g., Arya’s speech about gender-based “rules” in S7e6:

      Arya: “Father used to watch us from up here. He wouldn’t say much. You probably don’t remember. You were inside knitting all the time.”

      Sansa: “I remember.”

      Arya: “One time the boys were shooting arrows with Ser Rodrick. I came out here after and Bran had left his bow behind just lying on the ground. Ser Rodrick would have cuffed him if he saw. There was one arrow in the target. There was no one around, just like now. No one to stop me. So I started shooting. And every shot I had to go out there and get my one arrow and walk back and shoot it again. I wasn’t very good. Finally I hit the bullseye. It could have been the 20th shot or the 50th. I don’t remember. But I hit the bullseye and I heard this…”

      (Arya slow claps)

      Arya: “I looked up and he was standing right here smiling down at me. I knew what I was doing was against the rules. But he was smiling so I knew it wasn’t wrong. The rules were wrong. I was doing what I was meant to be doing and he knew it…”

      By the end, with Sansa as Queen, Brienne as LC of the KG, Yara in charge of the Iron Islands, and Arya sailing off to her future sequel, the old traditional rules seem to have been relaxed or replaced without explicitly saying so.

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    231. Jai,

      GRRM: “My Littlefinger would have never turned Sansa over to Ramsay,” Martin said in an interview for the book. “Never. He’s obsessed with her. Half the time he thinks she’s the daughter he never had — that he wishes he had, if he’d married Catelyn. And half the time he thinks she is Catelyn, and he wants her for himself.”

      Ha! I hate it when people gloat “I told you so,” but… I told you so.

      It never made sense to me that obsessive LF would ever sell or give away the virtue of his prize piece to anyone, no matter the potential payoff.

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    232. Last week @thronesfacts tweeted some particularly startling information from “Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon”: https://twitter.com/thronesfacts/status/1313551402778587136

      George R.R. Martin says ‘every character has a different end’ in the books but confirmed 3 things he told D&D:

      • Bran would end up on the Iron Throne
      • Hodor and ‘Hold the door’
      • Stannis’ decision to burn his daughter

      “Every character has a different end” ?

      Does this just mean the *paths* to the characters’ ultimate fates will be different to GoT but the fates will still be the same? (This is basically what GRRM previously claimed, as we all remember).

      Or is GRRM now claiming the ultimate fates of all the major characters except Bran, Hodor and Shireen will literally be different to GoT?

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    233. Jai,

      I have the book and here’s the quote in full if it provides any illumination 🙂

      George R. R. Martin (author, co-executive producer): It wasn’t easy for me. I didn’t want to give away my books. It’s not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and “hold the door,” and Stannis’s decision to burn his daughter. We didn’t get to everybody by any means. Especially the minor characters, who may have very different endings.

      Dan Weiss: What makes the books so great is that George doesn’t make meticulous blueprints for every beat of this story, then fill in the blanks by dutifully going from A to B to C, fleshing out an outline. George didn’t have ultra-detailed versions of the last hundred pages of his story figured out.

      David Benioff: George often used the metaphor of being a gardener instead of an architect. He plants the seeds and watches them grow. Even if we wanted to be gardeners, we couldn’t. We had to plan out entire seasons. We had to write a detailed outline and provide that to production. Writing a novel is a solo endeavor, and television is a team sport. I’m horribly mixing my metaphors, but the basic point is George was a gardener, and we had to be architects to plan out the seasons meticulously so they got shot and were ready in time. It’s just a fundamental difference between writing novels and TV series.

      George R. R. Martin: David warned me: “We’re catching up.” I said: ” I know you are.” But at that time I still thought they wouldn’t catch up. I thought I’d stay ahead.

      So I’m still inclined to think the bones are the same but some of the details are different, as much as I want the ultimate fates of the major characters to be different (I still have a flame of hope to this end but that flame is smaller than that flame of hope I have for seeing ADOS, so pretty tiny!) It feels like in the context of his wording, GRRM saying, “Every character has a different end,” may mean each character having a different end from one another.

      However, on this, I (personally) would love to be wrong (but I doubt a lot of this is stuff D&D pulled out of their a$ses).

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    234. Ten Bears:
      Mr Derp,

      Appointing Bronn as Master of Coin and Lord of Highgarden seemed to be payment under a personal side deal extracted from Tyrion under duress rather than through traditional lines of succession and entitlement, or even based on merit.(Ser Bronn “I don’t know how a loan works” of the Blackwater as Secretary of the Treasury: what could go wrong?)

      It’s even worse in the books.

      When Cersei is running King’s Landing, she appoints Aurane Waters as Master of Ships because he was attractive and she wanted to sleep with him.

      That was back in season 3 that Bronn didn’t know how loans worked, but then Tyrion told him. He knows now.

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    235. Jai,

      George R.R. Martin says ‘every character has a different end’ in the books but confirmed 3 things he told D&D:

      • Bran would end up on the Iron Throne
      • Hodor and ‘Hold the door’
      • Stannis’ decision to burn his daughter

      That’s fascinating. I had known the latter two items, and that a third one would come at the end of the story. After “The Bells,” and “The Iron Throne,” I had assumed that final item was Dany’s slaughter of KL, and her own death. Thank you for correcting my misconception.

      On a related note, it has often seemed to me that the story of how Game of Thrones came to exist does itself rival any epic tale. GRRM granted permission only after D&D answered his magical question, “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?” Then we have his three plot items which must be satisfied by D&D in their quest to reach “The Iron Throne” (i.e. the end of the story). Their failed pilot episode recalls how Star Trek had exactly the same issue, but survived nonetheless, to become one of the longest-lasting, most influential entertainment properties of all time.

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    236. Wait what?! Where did GRRM say all characters will have different endings? That seems something totally out of the blue and unlikely to be true given they spend several days together going through all major character arcs. Don’t get me wrong I’m sure some of the details will diverge but different endings would be surprising.

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    237. Ten Bears,

      “My Littlefinger would have never turned Sansa over to Ramsay,” Martin said in an interview for the book. “Never. He’s obsessed with her. Half the time he thinks she’s the daughter he never had — that he wishes he had, if he’d married Catelyn. And half the time he thinks she is Catelyn, and he wants her for himself.”

      If there is anything in the books to suggest Baelish is delusional, I must have missed it.

      We’ll read all about it in your forthcoming books, eh, George?

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    238. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending:
      Ten Bears,

      “My Littlefinger would have never turned Sansa over to Ramsay,” Martin said in an interview for the book. “Never. He’s obsessed with her. Half the time he thinks she’s the daughter he never had — that he wishes he had, if he’d married Catelyn. And half the time he thinks she is Catelyn, and he wants her for himself.”

      If there is anything in the books to suggest Baelish is delusional, I must have missed it.

      We’ll read all about it in your forthcoming books, eh, George?

      So sensitive

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    239. Jai,

      He actually stated that all characters have a different ending but their final fate will be “more or less” the same.
      It means that the mains will end up in different places (but perhaps not all of them as far as I can tell from the statement) but their fates are more or less the same as in the show.
      Perhaps Adriana can retrieve the extract.

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    240. Jon Snowed:
      Wait what?! Where did GRRM say all characters will have different endings? That seems something totally out of the blue and unlikely to be true given they spend several days together going through all major character arcs.Don’t get me wrong I’m sure some of the details will diverge but different endings would be surprising.

      This is the direct quote from GRRM from that interview.

      “It wasn’t easy for me… I didn’t want to give away my books. It’s not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne and I told them some big twists like Hodor and ‘hold the door,’ and Stannis’s decision to burn his daughter. We didn’t get to everybody by any means. Especially the minor characters, who may have very different endings.

      I’m not even sure that he’s refering to characters’ ends as being “all different from the show” but more in general that every character has their own ending and how he couldn’t even cover them all in his meeting with Benioff and Weiss… even more because he explicitly mentions “minor characters who may have different endings” It’s weird that suddently, everything would be different in GRRM”s books, considering it’s GRRM who said shortly before S8’s air that endings for major characters would be pretty much the same.

      Something that he pretty much confirms here is that it’s indeed Stannis who burns Shireen in the novels… as much as most fans refused to believe it.

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    241. Efi: He actually stated that all characters have a different ending but their final fate will be “more or less” the same.
      It means that the mains will end up in different places (but perhaps not all of them as far as I can tell from the statement) but their fates are more or less the same as in the show.
      Perhaps Adriana can retrieve the extract.

      Extract from the book itself? I can do that! Here is GRRM’s exact wording that I believe is being discussed 🙂

      George R. R. Martin (author, co-executive producer): It wasn’t easy for me. I didn’t want to give away my books. It’s not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and “hold the door,” and Stannis’s decision to burn his daughter. We didn’t get to everybody by any means. Especially the minor characters, who may have very different endings.

        Quote  Reply

    242. Damn, I accidently signed with my old “Lord Parramandas” name in previous comment XD

        Quote  Reply

    243. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas: Damn, I accidently signed with my old “Lord Parramandas” name in previous comment XD

      Oh dude, one time, through an unfortunate series of keystrokes starting with tab, I accidentally typed in “I feel” before my username (which was already typed in there via the cache) without even seeing the mistake. When what I was typing wasn’t showing up in the comment space, I positioned my cursor back in the comment window, none the wiser. So I ended up posting a comment with the name, “I feel Adrianacandle”…

      Which… uh…

      Way to creep on myself 😉

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    244. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      When did the Kingsguard become Brienne’s goal? She wanted to get married and be a lady, but she didn’t fit the role in looks or skill. She wanted to be a Knight, she felt terrible about disappointing her father and left home after numerous failed betrothals. Mockery for trying to be a Knight was easier to bear than mockery for trying to be a lady. She never looked down on women or their role, part of her wanted to do that for herself but it was denied because of her looks

      She wanted to become a Kingsguard…. for a man. She was in love with Renly, that was her goal, to be close to him knowing that she would never get anything more or better. So personally, I don’t see an ending with Jaime as her settling. Her becoming a member of the KG only works if you remove half of her character arc.

      I think that she will probably get to spend more time with Jaime in the books, that will be a much bigger plot and she probably won’t be left heartbroken by his abandonment. He’s obviously going to die and she will probably be left as a member of the KG, but after she has known love. That would be bittersweet and fulfil both arcs

      Oh and hi everyone, long time no see. I hope everyone is well.

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    245. Missed the edit time, they touched on it in the show obviously, but they placed greater emphasis on her Knighthood and barely got into her desire to be a lady and why she wanted to be a KG. A badass Knight was enough, so yeah, in the show it works but I find it very sad. It will just be longer in the books and get into the other side of her character. I still don’t see an ending with Jaime as her settling, them going off to be Knights together? Sign me up. It won’t happen though, he dead

      Oh and Jaime leaving for Cersei after she sent an assassin to kill him in the previous scene will always be stupid, sorry. Him going back to save her in show canon? sure makes sense, he never separated from her or found out about her infidelities, him going back after an attempted murder? nope. They should have come up with another way to keep Bronn around and prompt his return

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    246. Jenny,

      When it comes to Brienne, the core of this potential change may already come from the fact that her character was changed from the novels from let-go. In the novels, she’s young… I think 18 or 19, and I think she’s way more naive there, way more “innocent”. Someone well described her as “Sansa in knight armor” regarding her beliefs. But on TV, the actress was 33 when she was cast as Brienne, so I would put her character’s age in late 20s at earliest in S2, which would put her age in mid-to-late-30s at the end of the story. Also, we saw her kill people from S2 onwards while in the novels she kills her first person in book 4. Also, I would say she’s physically stronger on TV and less “in the clouds” regarding her beliefs. So whether her arc was changed or not, I think the root of everything already lies in her character being different from get-go.

      I personally like they made her a “full grown up person” on TV and downplayed her naive nature… same as I like that they made Sam a bit more confident post-S1 and added some light-hearted side to him. And I don’t think an unattractive woman who is also an “inner child” to some extent would even translate well to TV these days. Liking the change or not, that’s personal preference though.

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    247. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      Yes, I think her age changes our perception of her. She is more sure of herself, more at peace with the way things have turned out. It’s still sad to me, but on the show it’s less sad than her 19 year old counterpart getting rejected once again and going into the KG with no hope of ever finding the companionship she barely dares to dream of.

      She is more worldly than Sansa in the book, she’s already experienced some very painful treatment. She is idealistic though, black and white, this obviously changes after meeting Jaime and travelling in AFFC, she doesn’t lose her belief in honour though. I like that progression, this isn’t your typical ‘strong warrior woman, who doesn’t need anybody’. She’s more complicated than that, and that’s what drew me to her in the first place, I prefer her softer and more vulnerable book version. This is why I hope George softens the blow, Jaime’s death will always hurt, but let her feel loved before tragedy strikes. Don’t reject her once again, that scene in the courtyard basically confirmed everything she ever felt about herself and it’s so sad.

      I understand that a lot of people like the show ending for her, that’s fine, I only really object to the idea of it being somehow superior to her finding love. To each their own though.

      I think Brienne and Arya’s endings are similar, but I think that we can call Arya’s happy because she chose it, Brienne didn’t. Brienne will have to learn to be happy in service to Bran, though I personally don’t want servitude for her at all. I wanted her out in the world. Can we swap Brienne and Arya’s ending please lol

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    248. Jenny:
      Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      This is why I hope George softens the blow, Jaime’s death will always hurt, but let her feel loved before tragedy strikes. Don’t reject her once again, that scene in the courtyard basically confirmed everything she ever felt about herself and it’s so sad.

      Jaime made it perfectly clear that the reason he was leaving Brienne for Cersei was because he felt he felt he wasn’t worthy of her love. He couldn’t forgive himself for all the terrible things he’s done and feels he deserves to be with a hateful person like Cersei, because he’s hateful himself. Brienne was crying for Jaime, not for herself.

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    249. Jenny,

      Welcome back! Good to see you posting here again!

      When did the Kingsguard become Brienne’s goal?

      She was a Kingsguard, for Renly Baratheon. We meet her in the scene where she requests, and receives, an appointment to his Kingsguard. As she later explains to Poddrick Payne, she followed Renly, even knowing he was gay, because he was one of the only high-born men on Westeros who had ever treated her with decency and respect. Long after Renly died, she still acted as one of Renly’s Kingsguard when she murdered the defenseless Stannis, declaring she was executing him in Renly’s name, for Stannis’ part in the assassination of Renly.

      She’d taken two oaths regarding protection of Cat Stark’s daughters, so her becoming (1) head of the Kingsguard to (2) Bran Stark makes for a perfect conclusion to her story arcs.

      Oh and Jaime leaving for Cersei after she sent an assassin to kill him in the previous scene will always be stupid, sorry.

      Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei spent their entire lives awash in Tywin’s endless propaganda about the titanic importance of House Lannister. We see the effect in the boys’ coddling of their sister, which they take to absurd lengths, even long after it has become insanely counterproductive. (A high-born lady and a one-armed man, neither with any sailing experience, will somehow cross The Narrow Sea in a rowboat? Now, that’s desperation — borne from indoctrination!)

      Added to that is Jaime’s sick, twisted love for Cersei (we get hints throughout the series that she was the driver for their incestuous relationship). It would have taken a miracle to keep him away from her, and not even Brienne’s love could provide that miracle.

      So, Brienne’s first and last scenes depend upon her ambitions to become a Kingsguard. In a nice touch, Brienne’s position as Head of the Kingsguard allows her to write what will be the definitive account of Jaime’s life and deeds. She does this with great grace and dignity, befitting her position and her knowledge.

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    250. Lord Parramandas,

      Exactly. I’m not native, but as I understand it’s more like every character has a different end from each other, not that it will be that different from the show.
      But I do see a lot of speculation on the internet; people expect that truly their favorite characters will end up differently.
      Eh, what can you say, hope is the last to die. 😃

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    251. Young Dragon,

      Do you think she believed him? That’s asking a lot from a person who has been rejected and made to feel undesirable (putting it mildly) for her entire life. On a human level that doesn’t make sense to me. Yes, thats the reason given, but a person like Brienne would twist his words, he’s basically giving her the old ‘its not you it’s me’ spiel. At the end of the day he chose another woman over her after going on and on about his devotion to her. Rejection is rejection and it would hurt, especially since he never planned to tell her, she caught him sneaking off

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    252. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Thanks! I try to pop in every now and again.

      I think this is where we will disagree. As you mention, Brienne was a member of the KG, so we are led to assume that it is her goal. However, we later learn that Brienne was in love with Renly and wanted to be close to him, becoming a member of the KG meant that she’d be by his side forever. That doesn’t say ‘lifelong ambition’ to me, that says ‘means to an end’. She’s been in love twice and that was a major motivation for her character. Love, honour and oaths. I actually don’t buy her killing Stannis. In the show she got a golden opportunity and they needed him gone, but her main driving force was her oaths to Cat and Jaime, that’s what she spends every chapter in AFFC thinking about and coming to terms with. Possible failure and the transference of her love from Renly to Jaime.

      She wanted to be a Knight and being a the Lord Commander is the pinnacle of that profession so it makes sense, it’s a good reward and pretty much all that is left for her. Its not better than her going off to be a Knight with Jaime had he lived, not with her backstory and motivation. Which was my point, I just went on a journey to get there lol.

      No amount of explaining will make me change my mind about that Bronn scene i’m afraid lol, people should probably ignore my mentions of it, save your fingers my dears. That just seemed like an ‘oh shit we need to get him here, just make it happen as quickly as possible’. Maybe somebody can remember, but Davos smuggled the boat to the cove for Jaime’s escape, why didn’t he smuggle Jaime in it? We could have been spared his run through the city before he ended up there anyway. But if he’d gotten there sooner, he wouldn’t have met Euron, and that fight needed to happen because reasons. The machinations behind Jaime’s reunion with Cersei don’t work for me, I can just see the puppet strings too clearly.

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    253. Young Dragon,

      Jenny,

      I believe she was crying for herself, for Jaime, and for both of them. From her perspective, which many audience members share, he was throwing his life away to protect someone who was not worthy of him.

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    254. Jenny,

      I actually don’t buy her killing Stannis. In the show she got a golden opportunity and they needed him gone,

      He was unable to defend himself, perhaps mortally wounded as well, and as we saw Ramsay killing wounded Baratheon soldiers, we can assume Ramsay would have murdered Stannis had Brienne not arrived first. So, the death of Stannis did not require Brienne to divert from her pursuit of Sansa to murder him. She did it for the reason she clearly gave: in her mind, she was still acting as Renly’s Kingsguard.

      She’s been in love twice and that was a major motivation for her character. Love, honour and oaths.

      Indeed, those were the ideals of knighhood, yes.

      We could have been spared his [Jaime’s] run through the city…

      Which was part of establishing how crowded and hectic KL was before Dany consigned almost everyone in it to violent, painful death from dragonfire.

      Its not better than her going off to be a Knight with Jaime had he lived, not with her backstory and motivation.

      We’ll have to agree to disagree on that as well. Brienne overcame sexist bigotry to reach the pinnacle of her chosen profession. That was one of the elements of the story I enjoyed most. Attaching her life to a man would have been a far inferior outcome, at least to this viewer.

      No amount of explaining will make me change my mind about that Bronn scene i’m afraid lol,

      Thanks for the warning. I’m sorry you won’t take a fresh look at that scene. I find the posts and comments here to be most enlightening, and I constantly re-examine Game of Thrones, finding new aspects I hadn’t seen. Those are my main motivations for remaining here.

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    255. Jenny,

      He listed all the terrible things he’s done and called him and the woman he was returning to hateful. Yes, I think she believed him. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have written his deeds in the White Book. Jaime wasn’t rejecting her out of spite. He rejected her because he didn’t see himself as worthy. Brienne saw that.

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    256. 1) In the books, a lot of Brienne dreams and thoughts are about marriage/love. In GOT she was older but she seems very focused on the two men she loved. Not many women in GOT seemed to love but Brienne did. From the story she was carrying wounds from rejection by men and lacked confidence in her appearance.

      2) Clearly she thought highly of honor and knighthood. However, her overiding movtivation does not seem to have been serving on the kingsguard. She would take the job but her driving motivation?? Dunno.

      3) She asked Renly to be made guard to be near him. When she came back to KL with Jaime she was with someone who could have made her a part of the guard. Jaime was head of the guard and queen brother/husband. (In the book he considered a police job or something like that.) If the guard job was her major major major major desire – she should have asked Jaime!

      She could have tried traded finding Sansa for the guard job from Jaime – if this was her greatest dream.

      Of course, she may not have wanted to serve Cersei or Lannisters. Sure. So there were other things more important to her than being in the kingsguard.

      4) She was committed to Catherine’s children BUT she showed no intent to go after Sansa until Jaime asked her. Jaime and Renly seemed pretty important to Brienne’s choices. Yet, we are to conclude she was motivated by a job she already had – and that had ended badly!

      5) Tough to see her rejected again. Worse, Jaime tries to ghost her. Relationships can fail but a “ghosting” has sting especially for a woman with wounds from prior rejections. Ghosted by her first lover!!! Oye!. GOT is harsh on all characters. As Jaime left her, I would have liked a more respectful dumping. Err, parting.

      Tough end for the character.

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    257. Mango,

      She could have tried traded finding Sansa for the guard job from Jaime – if this was her greatest dream.

      Not until she’d fulfilled her oath to Cat.

      She was committed to Catherine’s children BUT she showed no intent to go after Sansa until Jaime asked her.

      Sansa had escaped from KL. Brienne would not want to be part of any deal which had her returning Sansa to KL, so her leaving to continue looking for Sansa was tricky. Then Tyrion and Jaime used her to get Poddrick out of KL, so she departed to find Sansa or Arya.

      Jaime and Renly seemed pretty important to Brienne’s choices.

      Westeros is a man’s world, and each of the women in the story had to deal with that as best she could. She knew Renly would never love her, but his behavior was both courteous to her and in keeping with the chivalrous ideal she prized. Her relationship with Jaime was longer and more complex, but of course she (like many in the audience) hoped he would overcome his toxic relationship with Cersei.

      As Jaime left her, I would have liked a more respectful dumping. Err, parting.

      Jaime himself said he was not a good enough person to do this. Plus, he had no experience — none — in ending any love affair in any way. Asking him to get it right on the first try would ask him to do something few real persons ever do.

      Tough end for the character.

      Compared to whom: Ned, Robb, Cat, Rickon, Missandei, Tywin, Shae, Ellaria & the Sand Snakes, Cersei and Jaime? Alive and well counts for something on Westeros!

      At the end of the story, she was at the top of her chosen profession, had men under her sworn command, and got to write the official history of the most famous and glamorous order of Knighthood Westeros has ever known. I’d say she’d transcended Jaime’s inglorious parting, and risen to her best.

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    258. Young Dragon:
      Jenny,

      He listed all the terrible things he’s done and called him and the woman he was returning to hateful. Yes, I think she believed him. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have written his deeds in the White Book. Jaime wasn’t rejecting her out of spite. He rejected her because he didn’t see himself as worthy. Brienne saw that.

      Very much this! If Jaime’s relationship with Brienne ended only on bitter note with him “breaking her heart”, she certainly wouldn’t want to honor his legacy that way. This ironic thing with Jaime was always that despite being renowned as one of the best knights in Seven Kingdoms, his White Book page was “surprisingly” empty and I personally believe it had a lot to do with resentment he got for killing Aerys. Brienne could have easily put Jaime’s final acts on the paper in a way that he would be remembered in history as a traitor and a fool. But she didn’t. She wrote even his most questionable acts in a way that on long term history, Jaime would be really remembered as a “knight”. He was obviously very messed up as a person just like everybody else but I’m sure at the end of the story, Brienne understood him and believed him.

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    259. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending:
      Jenny,

      We’ll have to agree to disagree on that as well.Brienne overcame sexist bigotry to reach the pinnacle of her chosen profession. That was one of the elements of the story I enjoyed most. Attaching her life to a man would have been a far inferior outcome, at least to this viewer.

      I very much agree with this. I’ve actually been thinking in recent time about the pre-2010 TV shows… a lot of female characters back then often existed in a story in order to be paired up with a male character. I’m glad they didn’t put main focus like that on Brienne. And as I said in my comment to Jenny, I think Brienne was written differently from her novel’s counterpart from get-go, being made more tough, more independent and less naive with her thoughts. I re-read first three novels in 2018/2019 and I well remmeber Catelyn makes an observation in very first chapter with Brienne that she’s in love with Renly. The show doesn’t explicitly address this until episode 2 of S3. And in fact for me personally, I found the most awkward Brienne scenes those where they tried to get “close” to her book personality.

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    260. Ten Bears,

      As dumb as Joffrey was, he took Dany and her dragons more seriously than Tywin ever did. That was probably the one and only time I recall Joffrey doing anything the slightest bit intelligent.

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    261. Mr Derp:
      Ten Bears,

      As dumb as Joffrey was, he took Dany and her dragons more seriously than Tywin ever did.That was probably the one and only time I recall Joffrey doing anything the slightest bit intelligent.

      I would disagree with the characterization of Joffery as lacking intelligence. He was just young, inexperienced, intimidated, and lashing out as a result. (Given that he idolized the violent, loudmouthed lout Robert Baratheon, this should come as no surprise.)

      There was a bit of a running joke about Joffrey having the only good ideas about governance on Westeros (yeah, a low bar, that). During a scene with him and Cersei in KL, he frets about the crown’s dependence upon Great Houses for troops, and proposes a royal army. Cersei sensibly asks him where he’ll get the money for a standing royal army, as they cannot expect the Great Houses to contribute funds to support an army which the crown can then use against them. Joffrey has no answer and nothing else happens with his idea. (This also becomes foreshadowing for Queen Cersei using the Lannister army to destroy House Tyrell and steal their wealth.)

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    262. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      ” Cersei sensibly asks him where he’ll get the money for a standing royal army, as they cannot expect the Great Houses to contribute funds to support an army which the crown can then use against them. Joffrey has no answer and nothing else happens with his idea. (This also becomes foreshadowing for Queen Cersei using the Lannister army to destroy House Tyrell and steal their wealth.)”

      Are you saying S7 Cersei answered her own question to Joffrey in S1 about how to fund a standing army?

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    263. I hope Chilli’s okay these days. A Belgian song for a musical interlude (French in the Wallonian dialect – I didn’t know until relatively recently that there was a Wallon language; romance language like French but a different language nonetheless). This is in French though but I don’t understand all the words because of the accent. I thought originally ‘la belle petite gayole’ referred to the canary but the gayole is in fact the cage. The song is called ‘La Belle Petite Gayole’. https://youtu.be/H5K4tq-9osc Very, very loose connection with ASOIAF ‘gayole’ comes from the same root as ‘jail’ and I have seen the spelling ‘gaol’ used in a couple of street names. In the book version of the letter Ramsay sends out he alludes to book Mance being imprisoned in a cage. This was a real thing in medieval times – a couple of female supporters of Robert the Bruce were treated thus. If anyone wants to read about the RTB relations mentions starts at about paragraph 7 of the linked article. https://youtu.be/H5K4tq-9osc

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    264. Mr Derp,

      • Sorry I overlooked that, Mr. D!

      • I ought to remind myself how fans were wishing Joffrey was still king when spineless Tommen got rolled by the High Sparrow. Imagine Joffrey’s response to the High Sparrow’s power grab…

      “Ser Meryn. Cut off his [insert noun here].”

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    265. Dame of Mercia,

      ”…Very, very loose connection with ASOIAF ‘gayole’ comes from the same root as ‘jail’ and I have seen the spelling ‘gaol’ used in a couple of street names. In the book version of the letter Ramsay sends out he alludes to book Mance being imprisoned in a cage.”

      Hmmm. Lemme see…

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    266. Musical Interlude
      Dedicated to King Stannis, Queen Selyse, and Fire Witch Melisandre?

      https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34b8ba

      🎶 ”The rusted chains of prison moons
      Are shattered by the sun
      I walk a road horizons change
      The tournament’s begun
      The purple piper plays his tune
      The choir softly sing
      Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
      For the court of the Crimson King.”
      🎵

      at 1:38 to 1:53:

      ”🎶The keeper of the city keys
      Puts shutters on the dreams
      I wait outside the pilgrim’s door
      With insufficient schemes
      The black queen chants the funeral march
      The cracked brass bells will ring

      To summon back the Fire Witch 🔥
      To the court of the Crimson King.

      “The Court of the Crimson King” (1969) – King Crimson

      Note: The original version of this song is difficult to find. There are lots of “covers” and remakes masquerading as the original on YouTube. I believe the link above to Daily Motion is the real, original King Crimson version with vocals by Greg Lake (later, of Emerson Lake & Palmer).

      It’s got a “medieval” flavor in its lyrics and instrumentals.

      P.S. The song is 9:26 long. It does not end at ~ 7:30. It picks up again after the brief silence.

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    267. I don’t want to derail the thread but the last time I tried to enter something on the forums I had a problem posting. I was thinking about other unfinished works. I’m not giving up on ASOIAF ever being finished but this oldster doesn’t wait patiently. But anyway, googling brought up (among others) ‘Good Soldier Svejk’ by Jaroslav Hasek (this story had some accents but I didn’t know how to insert them and ‘The Brothers Karamazov’ by Fyodor Dostoevsky. I read those many years ago (maybe half a century ago) but I hadn’t realised they were unfinished!!!!! ‘The Canterbury Tales’ wasn’t as long as it was originally intended to be – I think Chaucer must have got fed up because he said ‘Here endeth the Tales of Canterbury’. They were a collection of independent stories so didn’t really suffer from being shorter than they were meant to be at first. The unfinished novel that springs first to my mind is ‘Wives and Daughters’ by Elizabeth Gaskell but the author had left notes with her publisher about how the book was to end so he informed the reader of how the story wound up.

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    268. Dame of Mercia,

      George Eliot did finish Adam Bede, but, by her own admission, the final stretch of the story was entirely her first draft of that section (!), and it shows. The ending is perfunctory and definitely feels tacked-on. None of which prevents the book from being a member in good standing of Great British Literature.

      With GRRM’s saga, we’re in the interesting state of having an ending, just not one written by him. In the mind of this reader/viewer at least, that doesn’t detract from the story at all. Not only did D&D reach an ending whilst GRRM has not, in my humble opinion, they put a better ending on his story than Eliot did on hers!

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