Game of Thrones seeks return to Southern Spanish locations for Season 8 — in 2018!

A month ago we learnt Game of Thrones may return to the sunny parts of Spain to film its last season, despite the arrival of winter in 2016’s “The Winds of Winter” finale. Now, it has been made official: HBO is in talks to return to certain key locations in Andalucía which we haven’t seen on-screen yet but will play a climactic role in season seven.

Perhaps even more crucially, the timetable for this possible shoot gives us a better idea of the season eight air-date. If you were hoping previous reports warning of an even longer wait than this year’s would turn out to be wrong, you may be disappointed!

As reported by ABC, HBO contacted the Regional Government of Andalucía yesterday, June 19, in order to put things into motion. Particularly, the show is looking to return to two locations in the province of Seville: the Reales Atarazanas or Royal Shipyards, and the amphitheater of Itálica, a relatively well-preserved ancient Roman city.

If you followed our production reports late last year, you should be well aware these locations will not only depict a previously unseen King’s Landing landmark, but that they will host the greatest reunion of characters in the history of the show. Their likely return for the final season of Game of Thrones is a big deal, especially considering they are said to be “indispensable for the sake of narrative continuity.”

Itálica's amphitheater in Santiponce, Seville

Itálica’s amphitheater in Santiponce, Seville

As essential as these locations may be, there could be a problem on the horizon: the Royal Shipyards are supposed to undergo restoration efforts on March 2018. The show will reportedly not return to Itálica if they can’t also film at the shipyards, which makes sense, as together they make up a single Westerosi landmark. The local government is currently squaring the dates to make everyone happy, which will hopefully work out.

That last bit of news may confuse you — what does it matter if they are restoring the site on March of next year? Shouldn’t Game of Thrones have begun and finished filming long before then? Usually, that’s the case, but we had already heard season eight may take a while longer, and this seems to clinch it: season eight will film throughout Spring of 2018 at least, which means the show will probably still be in the middle of production at the time of the year it traditionally airs. Going by typical post-production schedules, the last six episodes of Game of Thrones should arrive in late 2018 or early 2019.

162 responses

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    1. Praying to the Lord of Light for a late 2018 release.

      Interesting that they will film these KL scenes in spring. I assume no fake snow?

      Hope Cersei blows up the entire city lmao

        Quote  Reply

    2. Me: The wait for Season 7 has been so long.
      HBO: Oh, you sweet summer child…

      Dang, that’s going to be a long production if they’re really going to start in September. It would be about a month per episode if it’s September-March (factoring in holiday breaks).

        Quote  Reply

    3. Weren’t they supposed to film somewhere in Norway for King’s Landing in Season 8? Could this just be them filming the scenes after winter at the tailend of production?

        Quote  Reply

    4. Ryan Neuner,

      Or maybe filming begins later than usual, November or December. We’ll see.

      clouddragon,

      You can’t just find a big old Roman amphitheater anywhere. Even if they end up using Norway for King’s Landing (no need for fake snow, which isn’t ever convincing anyway), they’ll have to return to this or a similar amphitheater if they need this King’s Landing landmark for the story.

        Quote  Reply

    5. I’m very happy about this.

      It is becoming increasingly clear (sadly 🙁 ) that the TV show will be the only ending we ever get to ASOIAF, and I want it to be as incredible as it can possibly be.
      I want them to have all the time to perfect the scripts, to film the scenes, to perfect the CGI, and to handle any necessary reshoots.
      I don’t care if the show finishes in 2020. Just give the greatest show the ending it deserves.

        Quote  Reply

    6. will twow be out by 2019? we may get that season at the same time as twow. i’ll laugh a laugh of frustration if S8 comes out before TWOW.

        Quote  Reply

    7. As much as I know the delay is going to be a drag, I can understand why season eight will take so long to film:

      1) If major characters are going to continue to come together as we have been promised will be the case, then it probably limits the amount of simultaneous filming they can schedule.

      2) I would guess that season eight will feature multiple White Walker action sequences, and it is the action sequences that take the longest to film. Given season eight will be the finale, I can understand HBO and the production team wanting to get everything right.

      Additionally, the post-production process will probably take longer even with fewer episodes given the action sequences I assume will form much of season eight.

      I just hope Miguel Sapochnik will be directing as much of it as possible! Assuming, of course, they are able to get him back for the final season.

        Quote  Reply

    8. ManderlyPieCompany,

      Hopefully TWOW will be out by 2019, but people forget A Dream of Spring comes next; the last book, that should roughly correspond to the last season… And that book will probably be only a “dream” for many, many years, I’m afraid.

      Alba Stark: I just hope Miguel Sapochnik will be directing as much of it as possible! Assuming, of course, they are able to get him back for the final season.

      I don’t want Sapochnik to kill himself filming the show; even if he was super-human, he couldn’t be at many places at once, and he’d need to, as the show is filmed all over the world at the same time; more than one director is needed. But I do hope he returns, along with other directors who have done great work in the show. I’d be happy if MacLaren in particular could return.

        Quote  Reply

    9. Didn’t sir Davos Seaworth Liam Cunningham say season 8 was going to start filming in September 2017?

      Game of Thrones would be a great show to watch in the winter/spring… I just don’t want to wait until 2019

        Quote  Reply

    10. Luka Nieto,

      Its not just that ADOS is only going to be a dream for years to come,
      I believe GRRM will not be able to conclude his series in 2 books.
      Remember, GRRM was requested to write a small amount of words for The World of Ice and Fire, and he ended up writing huge amounts because his imagination went wild.
      That is the problem. His greatest strength is his greatest weakness, He cannot control his impulses when it comes to reigning in the storylines to reach the conclusion anytime soon. I can guarentee hes written 1000+ pages of TWOW, and has still not covered enough real plot development to put out a book. He is a prolific writer, I do not think he suffers from writers block.

        Quote  Reply

    11. Luka Nieto,

      I think it is possible that TWOW will be out before S8 because the publishers will be putting pressure on GRRM to realise TWOW. They did the same back in 2011, but it was pyrrhic victory really. GRRM cut the climaxes from the book.

      If the same happens with TWOW, there is no way that he will finish the story with 7 books.

        Quote  Reply

    12. I don’t know how I feel about 2019. I understand why they’ll do it, but still it is too long.

      But again I’m sure I will rewatch this show for years and I want the last season to be the best they can do.

        Quote  Reply

    13. mau,

      2018 is still more than likely considering the information we have, but we must admit 2019 is a possibility. Better to expect the worst and be pleasantly surprised if it doesn’t happen than expect the best and be disappointed.

        Quote  Reply

    14. With season 7 beginning in July this year I didn’t expect season 8 to premiere around the usual April-ish. I have been expecting it to air around the same time as season 7 will though… I can handle a similar break between finale and premiere as we’re going through, or even a few more months without getting really pissed off. Spring 2019 would be an absurd amount of waiting.

      We’re doing 1 year and 3 weeks between episodes. For the same length of break before S8 that would be a premiere of September 16th next year…

        Quote  Reply

    15. Clob,

      Or maybe you can stop and think for a second that maybe… just maybe… there is a reason as to why filming might take longer….
      hours of battle sequences and expensive CGI that probably will take months of work to accomplish…

      Audiences have the ability to wait years for book sequels and movie sequels…
      They can do the same for TV… and a couple of months is nothing.

        Quote  Reply

    16. HelloThere: Or maybe you can stop and think for a second

      Yeah, I’ll get right on that. Thanks.

      I didn’t say anything about good or bad reasons why there may be a longer wait, just that it would suck.

        Quote  Reply

    17. Luka Nieto,

      I remember they overworked Alan Taylor in S4 (episodes 2,3,8,10)
      I actually wonder if the jaime cersei sept scene was a result of overworking the director

      Clob,

      Well, I have encountered many entitled fans who believe D&D are doing it as a personal insult to them
      Apologies 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    18. HelloThere: I actually wonder if the jaime cersei sept scene was a result of overworking the director

      A mystery for the ages better put to rest, lest we summon the dreaded dreary dragon of the GoT wiki and his dissertation-length theories about the scene 😉

        Quote  Reply

    19. Dee Stark:

      Shouldn’t all the major characters have reunited by end of season 7???

      #noleaksorspoilers

      The interviews I have read/seen from cast members don’t definitively state that everyone will be united by the end of season seven – just that this season there are generally more character reunions/first meetings like Tyrion/Dany meeting for the first time and Sansa/Jon, Yara/Theon, Tyrion/Theon etc. reuniting. They don’t specify in interviews which characters are involved, so it is hard to tell if it includes everyone. I would hope they are all united going into season eight, but this is GoT……it is hard to get even a very small group of characters to agree on anything!

      I hope you don’t consider that too spoilery!

        Quote  Reply

    20. mau,

      Ha, I cant read that. But I guess we wont have all major reunions this year. Time wise it had made sense to me, because some majors will die this season, and some will have to reunite or unite for the first time. I had a falling most if not all will happen this season, but could be way off!! I want my Starks together, ALIVE!!!!!!!!

        Quote  Reply

    21. Luka Nieto: A mystery for the ages better put to rest, lest we summon the dreaded dreary dragon of the GoT wiki and his dissertation-length theories about the scene

      The guy is too busy doing Lena Headey´s tax returns…

        Quote  Reply

    22. Alba Stark,

      Yeah I guess you are right…. here are my guesses:

      People know I NEVER read spoilers so I wont spoiler code, but the mods can if they want:

      – Arya will reunite with the hound and CO (I think they will run into Mel as well) in season 7… and my hopes is she heads north and ARRIVES in Winterfell reuniting with whomever from her family is there. This second part may be pushed to season 8… but I hope not.
      – Sansa/Brienne and the Hound (Arya) in season 7, though this could be one pushed to 8… but I had also predicted that one of the Stark sisters would die this season 🙁 so I would hope they would reunite before that happens
      – Bran goes to Winterfell and reunites with Jon/Sansa in season 7.
      – Cersei and Jamie and Tyrion finally share a screen in season 7
      – First time meetings between Cersei and Dany and MAYBEEEEEEE Dany and Jon in season 7?? Though the second could be pushed to season 8 – A Dany and Jon meeting in season 7 would essentially mean Jon would reunite with Tyrion AND Theon (which would be interesting)
      -I had also predicted that Cersei would have to die in this season cause I don’t see her role in season 8
      – LF will die in this season (HOPEFULLY LOLS) so he wont reunite with anyone hahaha

      I cant think of any other major reunions besides Jon and Sam, which probably happen in season 8… maybe Dany and Jorah, which would probably happen in season 8…

        Quote  Reply

    23. I know GoT has a global audience. Does anyone know what percentage of viewers are USA-based?

      Also, I assume that more action sequences and more special effect will make the post-production process longer than usual. Does anyone who actually knows anything about TV/movie making know if that is true or false?

      Thanks

        Quote  Reply

    24. Dee Stark,

      I’ve carefully avoided “the leaks” and plot spoilers to, so this is all speculation on my part:
      I figure any Jon-Arya reunion won’t happen until S8. The resonance of a reunion this year would be somewhat diluted by the mid-S6 Jon-Sansa reunion.
      I also think so much time has passed since they last saw each other in that wonderful scene in S1e2, that despite occasional callbacks to Jon and reminders that “my brother gave me that sword”, the show is going to want to re-emphasize and remind the audience of their closeness before they actually reconnect.

      To be cont/edited

        Quote  Reply

    25. Dee Stark,

      Not all, but if you rewatch the season 6 finale you should get an idea of where some of the characters are headed, and pray for the possibility of a reunion should everything go smoothly.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Dee Stark,

      I always get excited just by reading your predictions! It’s nice to see what unspoiled fans think will happen. I’m sure season seven will surprise me in some ways, but you… given you’re somehow strong enough to avoid all spoilers, the show will BLOW YOUR MIND, I assure you 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    27. Ten Bears,

      Haha I look forward to reading the rest 🙂

      I guess, you make a good point about Jon and Arya. Seeing as though I think Arya will unite with the hound and co… that would delay a Sansa/Hound reunion as well.

        Quote  Reply

    28. I am ok with late 2018/2019. I think It’s my own sense of denial that the show will be over, so I don’t mind prolonging the agony.

      It’s like they’re gonna have some sort of big ol Super’bowl’ or something…

        Quote  Reply

    29. Flayed Potatoes,

      Well, the only one I can think of based on the finale is the obvious Cersei/Jamie/Tyrion/Varys/Dany reunions and first time unions as well as Arya + Hound and Co….

      Bran is heading to the wall.

        Quote  Reply

    30. I just hope that the next season leaks as early as possible. I mean, everyone will still watch, anyway, and this way, we’ll get the resolution faster. We’ll even get the fan arguments out of our system way before the season airs.

      Also, if Dany dies, I’d prefer to be prepared for this.

        Quote  Reply

    31. Oh God. We haven’t even finished the long hiatus for S7 and I’m already dreading the even longer hiatus that awaits us for S8. I guess the silver lining is that I won’t have to say goodbye to GOT until 2019, and they’ll be filming for a longer period which means we’ll have lots of months of filming leaks and speculation.

        Quote  Reply

    32. I would like to see an Arya and Hound reunion, but considering the two of them I don’t think it would include much visible emotion. Arya would be surprised he’s alive and Sandor would probably make a semi-joking remark about her leaving him for dead. I imagine they’d realize a friendship exists that they mostly ignored before, but then just carry on without a word about it.

      I really don’t need or even want a reunion of Arya and the Brotherhood. I spent enough time last Fall debating reasons why Arya joining and leading the Brotherhood would be silly. I don’t care to see any fuel for that reignition. 😛

        Quote  Reply

    33. Luka Nieto: A mystery for the ages better put to rest, lest we summon the dreaded dreary dragon of the GoT wiki and his dissertation-length theories about the scene 😉

      SHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

        Quote  Reply

    34. Clob: I really don’t need or even want a reunion of Arya and the Brotherhood. I spent enough time last Fall debating reasons why Arya joining and leading the Brotherhood would be silly. I don’t care to see any fuel for that reignition.

      Well if we get Arya and the Hound, we will get Arya and the Brother hood.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Dee Stark: Well if we get Arya and the Hound, we will get Arya and the Brother hood.

      Unless they were to kick him out beforehand for eating all their f’n chickens. 😛

        Quote  Reply

    36. Dee Stark:
      How long does it take to film and edit a movie like star wars?

      2-3 years I suppose eh… Now, if we’re talking James Cameron, then about 9 years. I think Earth will colonize another planet before Avatar 2 comes out.

        Quote  Reply

    37. Not unexpected, but will still be excruciating to endure.

      Like many others here, I’d rather that D&D took all of the time necessary to make S8 exactly what they want it to be–story, acting, fx–everything just as they want it. The pressure will be enormous.

      As for WoW, if it comes out, I’ll read it, but the two entities are so different in my mind now that one will not have any bearing on my enjoyment of the other. My apologies,
      mau, I was one of the ones that thought that your prediction could not possibly be correct. Now I’m rethinking my opinion of the poster who thinks that 2026 is most likely… :/

        Quote  Reply

    38. Clob,

      LOL!!!!!

      Clob,

      Another good one!
      I agree! LOL
      But yeah, these movies take a while… and our last few GOT seasons have been movie material.. I would imagine these shorter ones are like long movies. So it makes sense why they need time. I am hoping we get a premiere of November 11, 2018 the LATEST. Which would end the season on December 16 2018… so they wouldn’t have to air during the holidays. That would give them around a year and two months to film and edit… if they begin production in September 2017.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Dee Stark,

      The Force Awakens began filming in like April 2014 and ended in November the same year. Though winter never came in that movie so… 😛

      Post production lasted until August 2015 I think. At least I remember that in August we got an estimated running time, so I don’t know.

      Casting started way earlier, but that’s not exactly a problem for GoT right now. We have the actors already.

        Quote  Reply

    40. SirSquinty,

      Oh no… I do like the way you are thinking. It’s just that if S8 deals with material from the end of Winds of Winter through the book that deals with the arrival of a new spring, then premier in mid-winter 2019 (say 10 or 17 Feb 2019) and finale in early-spring 2019 (17 or 24 Mar 2019) would be even more appropriate.

        Quote  Reply

    41. For me, regardless of when the season airs, I only find the last couple weeks hard to wait,
      I am usually good at disconnecting from the fandom in the off period.,, So regardless of whether S8 comes in 2018, 2019, or 2020, the wait will feel pretty much the same for me.

      I am also in the camp of hoping that TWOW only releases after S8. I don’t want to delve back into the books right now. I am invested in seeing the show end, and I would like to see it conclude before jumping back into GRRMs crazy world. Plus I’d have to reread 1-5… and brush up on my Septa Lemore theories.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Honestly I want this show to end with (bittersweet like it was meant to) a great pay off, I don’t want this show to end like as if they were rushed into finishing it as quick as possible. I want this to be justified and I’m OK with waiting, honestly people it will be worth the wait 🙂 I don’t mind waiting until 2019 to have a good finish of a series

        Quote  Reply

    43. I’m still hoping for Fall or early Winter 2018.

      I’m really starting to believe that they are purposely delaying the production and release of the new season(s) simply out of the desire to want to keep GOT as an active series in their catalog for until they can get more shows like Westworld built up to similar popularity and/or shorten the time between the end of GoT and the beginning of the spin-off series.

      I know some people are willing to buy whatever they say is the reason, especially if it’s for supposedly for artistic reasons, but I guess we will have to wait and see. It will be interesting to compare the length of actual CGI footage in S7 to what we got in S6.

      Either way, the silliest reasoning I’ve heard is that they wanted to film in the winter months since Winter Has Come in Westeros….. you know, considering that they used fake snow, CGI and filters for that since they can’t control the weather, and they film in Iceland for the real deal.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Flayed Potatoes: The Force Awakens began filming in like April 2014 and ended in November the same year. Though winter never came in that movie so…

      I thought her name was Rey? 😛
      I never do know exactly how long it takes certain movies to fully complete. Many times it seems they sit on the blockbusters to premiere during those certain times of the year… the big months like May, June and December.

        Quote  Reply

    45. HelloThere: brush up on my Septa Lemore theories.

      She’s always on my list of characters that shouldn’t have been cut. What’s not to like about a lady that enjoys bathing a lot?

        Quote  Reply

    46. “Whats wrong with that scene?”

      It was widely regarded as Jaime raping Cersei, although neither of the actors nor the director intended it as such.

        Quote  Reply

    47. You know these long waits make me even more eager to be spoiled and know what’s up instead of waiting forever…like all I’ve and many of us have known about season 7 for a long time now.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Clob: 2-3 years I suppose eh…Now, if we’re talking James Cameron, then about 9 years.I think Earth will colonize another planet before Avatar 2 comes out.

      What an odd coincidence when Googling GoT news… As soon as I mention Avatar in a GoT thread I come across a GoT related Avatar news article. 😛
      Oona Chaplin has been cast to be in the Avatar sequels! Good for her!!
      http://deadline.com/2017/06/avatar-fox-oona-chaplin-sequels-1202116929/

        Quote  Reply

    49. Dee Stark:
      Alba Stark,

      Yeah I guess you are right…. here are my guesses:

      People know I NEVER read spoilers so I wont spoiler code, but the mods can if they want:

      – Arya will reunite with the hound and CO (I think they will run into Mel as well) in season 7… and my hopes is she heads north and ARRIVES in Winterfell reuniting with whomever from her family is there. This second part may be pushed to season 8… but I hope not.
      – Sansa/Brienne and the Hound (Arya) in season 7, though this could be one pushed to 8… but I had also predicted that one of the Stark sisters would die this season 🙁 so I would hope they would reunite before that happens
      – Bran goes to Winterfell and reunites with Jon/Sansa in season 7.
      – Cersei and Jamie and Tyrion finally share a screen in season 7
      – First time meetings between Cersei and Dany and MAYBEEEEEEE Dany and Jon in season 7?? Though the second could be pushed to season 8 – A Dany and Jon meeting in season 7 would essentially mean Jon would reunite with Tyrion AND Theon (which would be interesting)
      -I had also predicted that Cersei would have to die in this season cause I don’t see her role in season 8
      – LF will die in this season (HOPEFULLY LOLS) so he wont reunite with anyone hahaha

      I cant think of any other major reunions besides Jon and Sam, which probably happen in season 8… maybe Dany and Jorah, which would probably happen in season 8…

      Those are good guesses, really, for not having read any spoilers at all. You’re right, in part, and also wrong, in part. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    50. Luka Nieto:
      mau,

      Sue Hath Spoken!

      I’m fine with 2019, but they better hammer down on those plot leaks and script page leaks and shut it down, or else by 2019 some people might know not only plot points ahead of time, but dialogue right down to page numbers! LOL.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Jack Bauer 24,

      Yeah, I just got the news via email. She was one of my autograph tickets, and I had purchased a special item just for her to sign. Very disappointing. We aren’t into “30 minutes in the ballpit” territory yet, but losing the Red Woman is a very sad step in that direction.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Dee Stark,

      Oh, I’d bet the farm on a Hound – Arya S7 reunion. Just from the out-of-left-field callbacks to The Hound in Arya’s Braavos scenes with Jaqen 2.0 in S5 and the Waif in S6, I’m sure the The Hound and his little Wolf Girl will meet. They’ve got a lot of conflicting feelings to resolve, and mutual apologies to make.

      I could be wrong, but I don’t think Sandor connects again with his Little Bird. The occasion to set that up was in 6×2 in Sansa’s talk with Brienne, but Brienne just said Arya was with “a man.”

      To be cont?
      (Sorry. Can’t edit)

        Quote  Reply

    53. George,

      Shame! 🔔
      That is precisely what you are NOT supposed to do when those of us who’ve avoided leaks come here to prognosticate. Grading the accuracy of our predictions because of supposedly superior advance knowledge you have – but shouldn’t have – “drains the fun right out of it.”

      So PLEASE! Either don’t talk about “leaks” or at least use spoiler coding.
      🚱🚱🚱🚱🚱🚱🚱

      Thank you in advance for your antipated cooperation.

        Quote  Reply

    54. Holy fucking hell. Wow. I have no idea how these upcoming 7 episodes are going to tide us over until 2019 (I’m just gonna assume, for the sake of not being disappointed, that we’re not getting Season 8 until Spring 2019).

      This is gonna be one hell of a long night.

      I’m glad they want to take their time and do it right, but I do have two concerns.

      1. Will this hurt the show’s momentum ? Not for die hard fans like us, but for the casual viewers, and the hype around the show in the general public, I think it might.

      2. What does this mean for the aesthetic look of Winter on the show ?
      I always assumed and hoped that the last season would basically be the Long Night 2.0, aka tons of snow and darkness everywhere, including Dorne.
      Is that feasible if they want to film in Spain in the spring ? The amount of fake snow and CGI would be absurd, and the vegetation won’t look right. I’m afraid the show will never give us the extreme snow and Winter climate all over Westeros, at least not to the extent I was hoping for.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Dee Stark,

      A lot is wrong with that scene. Jaime rapes Cersei in it, or at least that’s how 90% of the viewership interpreted it, even though that’s not what happens in the books, it’s out of Jaime’s character, and both the actors and director said it wasn’t meant to be rape.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Ten Bears:

      I could be wrong, but I don’t think Sandor connects again with his Little Bird. The occasion to set that up was in 6×2 in Sansa’s talk with Brienne, but Brienne just said Arya was with “a man.”

      I disagree. As I’ve written elsewhere, I think that was bad writing on D&D’s part, setting up a reveal later on—most likely when Sansa and Arya are reunited. It was very vexatious to me that Sansa wasn’t shown digging deeper into who was with Arya; if she doesn’t have that conversation with Arya herself, that will be unforgivably bad writing. At some point, the sisters must realize that Sandor saved them both, and ask why.

      I doubt it’ll ever be used in the series—there’s already so much to pack in—but in the books there’s a passing reference to a younger sister who might have died under mysterious *coughGregorcough* circumstances. I’ve always thought that Sandor’s protectiveness of the Stark girls might have stemmed in part from his own perceived “failure” to protect his sister. (He would have been a child, but still… survivor’s guilt is pretty powerful stuff.)

      On another note, we know the Brotherhood is heading north. Even if the Merry Trio go directly to the Wall, I simply can’t imagine that they won’t wind up at Winterfell at some point. (Yes, I’ve read the leaks, and no, I don’t want to have to use spoiler coding right now. Poor Dee Stark is already excluded from too many juicy convos.) Winterfell is both politically and geographically central to the North, and it’s inconceivable to me that, with everything that’s surely going to occur this season, there will not be at least one major rendezvous there featuring the main players of the Northern storyline.

      (I’m fairly certain that Wimsey will disagree with the concept of Sandor being a “main player,” but going into the endgame the man was not “resurrected” just for shits and grins.)

        Quote  Reply

    57. Markus Stark:

      1. Will this hurt the show’s momentum ?

      I think it will. And I think that the momentum is lost already in some ways for S7 as well. The ratings will be high I suppose, we saw that S7 trailer was the most watched trailer in TV history, but I’m not sure that there is enthusiasm around S7 that much. It was too long already.

      And that’s the reason why I’m glad there won’t be 10 seasons.

        Quote  Reply

    58. For the casual viewers waiting 2 years for the next season will be like waiting 6 years for book readers.

      TV is different medium, much “faster”, so people are less tolerant of waiting.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Airing in the Winter of 2018 would be a bad idea, IMO, because you would have to content with Sunday Night Football every night. Better just to wait until late spring/early summer 2019.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Disappointing, I understand that we all want the final season to be great. But a spring or summer 2019 release is just unacceptable to me. Sounds like HBO wanting too drag it out to gather hype for one of those spin off series.

        Quote  Reply

    61. mau,

      mau:
      For the casual viewers waiting 2 years for the next season will be like waiting 6 years for book readers.

      TV is different medium, much “faster”, so people are less tolerant of waiting.

      Yeah, definitely. People were complaining in Season 4 already that Dany’s time in Essos was taking too long, and that they had been waiting three years for her to get to Westeros. Book readers have been waiting since 1996, and may never see it happen in the novels.

      I think people were so happy with Season 6 that they were willing to be understanding about a slightly longer wait for Season 7, and as you said, the views for the trailer seem to indicate that people are still very invested.

      I just don’t know if that can hold for another year and a half after Season 7 ends.

        Quote  Reply

    62. firstone,

      He did say that yes, but we don’t know how many different country locations they will be filming at, so for all we know Spain could be one of the last places they film at. I can definitely see them spending a lot more time in the colder countries than they will be in the warmer ones like Spain.
      So late 2018 is still very viable

        Quote  Reply

    63. Rather than see a bunch of CGI snow (ugh), hopefully most of the Spain location filming will be for the (by then terribly long-awaited) dream of spring.

        Quote  Reply

    64. mau: I think it will. And I think that the momentum is lost already in some ways for S7 as well.The ratings will be high I suppose, we saw that S7 trailer was the most watched trailer in TV history, but I’m not sure that there isenthusiasm around S7 that much. It was too long already.

      And that’s the reason why I’m glad there won’t be 10 seasons.

      Funny, that’s not my read on it at all, I’m sensing anticipation for this season to be at a fever pitch like never before, with more media coverage and internet coverage and speculation than ever before. My bet is that this will be the most watched season of GOT ever, and that 7.01 will break records for ratings of a GOT premiere.

      As for the wait till 2019, well, I agree that such a long wait might just hurt the ratings initially…particularly the premiere of season 8. But the finale, if the season is any good, should be up there in terms of numbers.

      D&D have said several times in the past that the final season of Thrones would be unprecedented in terms of production requirements for TV…I guess they just need the extra time?

        Quote  Reply

    65. HelloThere,

      You can’t sat that until GRRM is dead. Words are wind until that fateful day occurs without the man himself finishing his masterpiece.

      Also, I know that the cast is full of Brits, isn’t going to the south of Spain in winter the quintessential British holiday spot? Just ironic to me…

        Quote  Reply

    66. mau: we saw that S7 trailer was the most watched trailer in TV history, but I’m not sure that there is enthusiasm around S7 that much.

      How don’t these two statements contradict each other?

        Quote  Reply

    67. mau,

      Also true. Not sure why you’re saying that though, unless you’re trying to imply that S7 WILL end on a cliffhanger, in which case I’d ask you not to give any more information about that, because I don’t know how S7 ends and would like to remain Unsullied on that point.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Markus Stark,

      No. I was just speaking about S6.

      S6 was the end of the Act II. Just like S4 was the end of Act I.

      You don’t need spoilers to know that S7 won’t be the end of Act III.

      And it’s not strange that S4 and S6 are the most popular seasons. They are the culminations of the first two acts.

      I hope that S8 as the end of Act III will be the most popular yet.

        Quote  Reply

    69. I kept thinking that Lady Stoneheart wasn’t written out of the series they were just going to show her later. I guess at this point we’ve all given up and she won’t appear at all?

        Quote  Reply

    70. mau: They did the same back in 2011, but it was pyrrhic victory really. GRRM cut the climaxes from the book.

      That’s not entirely true: we got big climaxes for Jon, Daenerys, Arya, Bran, Theon and Cersei. I’m not sure where Tyrion, Jaime, Sam or Brienne left off. Sansa didn’t have any climax, but she was basically absent from the story.

      There was a host of irrelevant new PoV characters, but I don’t remember what happened with any of them, either.

      Luka Nieto: How don’t these two statements contradict each other?

      Well, that means that it’s the same 27 geeks watching it over and over. I mean, hadn’t you heard? The show jumped the shark years ago and nobody (I know) watches it anymore. The supposed ratings are all made-up, and those awards that GoT gets were just made up by B&W. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    71. Markus Stark: in which case I’d ask you not to give any more information about that, because I don’t know how S7 ends and would like to remain Unsullied on that point.

      I have no particular idea how S7 is going to end, but I will be stunned if it is not on a cliff-hanger. This really should be Part I of the closing act, after all.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Lady Lyanna Mormont for the iron throne!:
      I kept thinking that Lady Stoneheart wasn’t written out of the series they were just going to show her later.I guess at this point we’ve all given up and she won’t appear at all?

      If she were to be re-animated now, she’d just be a skeleton. It’s been years…so no ability to think, talk, move….actually she couldn’t be revived at all in that case. Unless they were doing a Monster Mash video I suppose. She’s definitely out at this point.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Wimsey,
      Tyrion – waking up on the wagon after the battle E9
      Jaime – as a prisoner he tells Catelyn that he pushed Bran off the tower
      Sam – goes after Jon who is abandoning the NW
      Sansa – being shown Ned’s head on a spike by Joffrey
      Brienne – wasn’t in S1

        Quote  Reply

    74. Clob,

      * I’m now thinking you weren’t talking about S1 of the show in 2011… ?? I’m on my phone so I can’t follow well. Also getting some stupid Amazon popup thing that pulls me off the tab. 😠

        Quote  Reply

    75. I have been saying GRRm can’t finish it in two books ever since he has moved chapters from ADWD. .and the released chapters doesn’t make me change my mind either. ..if GRrm to actually finish TDOS we will have to wait for the 8th book..

      I don’t care the season comes 2019…iam hoping last 3 episodes or 2 episodes to be similar to that of an Sherlock episode ..

        Quote  Reply

    76. Wolfish,

      I hope Sandor reconnects with Sansa; in my mind I was trying to come up with a logical reason for Brienne’s curious “with a man” statement, and concealment of what happened during her encounter with Arya and Sandor. I like to give the writers the benefit of the doubt, and thought maybe they didn’t want Sansa to be thinking and talking about The Hound, as sort of an “Anti-Gun”: to suggest Sansa wouldn’t be interacting with him.
      But what do I know?
      Sandor’s rescue of Sansa from the KL mob is one of my favorites: the way he assures her “You’re alright now, Little Bird”, gives her hiss hand, then slings her over his shoulder and takes her back to the keep. .And then is so danaged that later on he can’t even accept her gratitude, resporting to that “I like killing people” schtick. But I digress..

      As to your other comment: I agree wholeheartedly that however one wants to “classify” The Hound, he’s not just window dressing, or a device for other characters’ stories. Especially in a TV asaptation that has “prematurely” killed off characters (Mance, Barristan, Rickon, Doran), and brought back others just long enough to kill them off (eg Blackfish), there’s got to be a good reason why Sandor
      Was brought back.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Yaga,

      I just hope that the next season leaks as early as possible. I mean, everyone will still watch, anyway, and this way, we’ll get the resolution faster. We’ll even get the fan arguments out of our system way before the season airs. Also, if Dany dies, I’d prefer to be prepared for this.

      With due respect, Yaga: Nooooooo-o-o-o!!! I’ve followed leaks heretofore, but I don’t want any for Season 8 because if my favourites die, there will be no hope. By S8E6 I will have lived with GoT and these characters for 20 years (I started as a baby). If bad things happen, I’ll take it in stride, but I don’t want to spend months knowing they’re going to happen but not if they’re going to happen in a sweet and not entirely bitter way. Truth to tell, it will be hard on the actors too. But at least they’re professionals and have celebrity and paychecks and friendships to console them. Sorry for whinging, but there you are.

      Wimsey,

      I have no particular idea how S7 is going to end, but I will be stunned if it is not on a cliff-hanger. This really should be Part I of the closing act, after all.

      Agreed. S7 & 8 are Act III, but separated by a different emphases: the game of thrones v. the Great War. Maisie said early this year there would be a “huge cliffhanger” at season’s end, and speculation here leaned towards the Wall falling. If so, that means the ‘door’ is left open for the Walkers to invade. Literally and metaphorically, that is a indeed a cliffhanger.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Wolfish,

      Oh, I almost forgot: Sandor had to come back because he’s the prophecied Warrior of Light. Now if I see a meteor shower or some other celestial event in S7, I’ll transfer that prediction from the tinfoil pile to the “Confirmed” file.

      (But I’m not making this up: the clues are all there. And there’s been too much reinforcenent to ignore them. I’m gonna try to post excerpts soon.)

        Quote  Reply

    79. Dee Stark,

      I’m going to try to excerpt the passages I was referring to above. This might not work, and even if it does I can’t edit, so please excuse the length and any typos..
      PS I think the excerpting worked, though there’s some additional commentary at the tail end.
      —————————

      Here are the two Braavos scenes I was referring to, in which (I thought) callbacks to The Hound come out of left field and, I believe, presage Arya’s eventual reconciliation with him.

      In the first scene, in S5e6, she is ostensibly playing the “Game of Faces” with Jaqen, trying to see if she can falsify little details of her history without Jaqen catching them (and earning a thwack! of his stick when he spots the lies.) But the scene is really about her true feelings for The Hound, which she can’t even admit to herself.

      In the scene with The Waif in S6e3, the Waif is asking “A Girl” about “Arya Stark’s family”, when from out of nowhere asks: “Tell me about the Hound.”
      ______________________

      From S5E6, Jaqen-Arya re: The Hound

      Jaqen: Who are you? Who are you?

      Arya: —

      J: And where did you come from?

      A: Westeros. My family home is Winterfell. I’m the youngest daughter of a great lord, Eddard Stark. He died in battle.

      (Thwack!)
      J: A lie.

      A: After he was executed, I fled the capital. Had to kill a stable boy. Drove my sword through his back.

      (Thwack!)
      J: A lie.

      A: I stabbed him in the gut. I tried to find my mother and brother, but I never did. They were murdered by Walder Frey. An outlaw kidnapped me, a man called Polliver.
      (thwack!)
      A man called the Hound. Sandor Clegane. He tried to sell me, but was wounded in a fight. He begged me to kill him, but I wouldn’t. I left him in the mountains to die. I wanted him to suffer. I hated him.
      (Thwack!)
      I hated him! (Thwack!)
      That’s not a lie!

      J: A girl lies to me, to the Many-Faced God, to herself.
      *****

      ______________________
      From
      S6E3 “Oathbreaker” –
      [some thwacks! omitted]

      Waif: “Who were you before you came here?”

      Arya (A Girl): “Arya Stark.”

      Waif: “Tell me about Arya Stark’s family.”

      Arya: ” Her father was Eddard Stark. Her mother was Catelyn Stark. She had one sister, Sansa, and four brothers. [thwack!]
      Three brothers. Robb, Bran, Rickon. And a half-brother Jon.”

      Waif: “And where are they now?”

      Arya: “They may be dead for all a girl knows.”

      Waif: “Tell me about the Hound.”

      Arya: “Also dead. Arya Stark left him to die. He was on her list…[she pauses]…He was not on her list anymore. She had taken him off it.”

      Waif: “Why? Didn’t she want him dead any longer?”

      Arya: “She did, and she did not.”

      Waif: “She sounds confused.”

      Arya: “Yes. She was.”
      ____________________
      From all this, I think Arya has been slowly working through conflicting emotions about Sandor, and has started to accept that:

      She did not hate him. She did not want him to suffer. She did not really want him dead anymore, and that’s why she took him off her List.

      ————

      At roughly the same time [S6e7] far away, Sandor is alive and expressing remorse for the things he’s done — and learning he has a path to redemption:

      ——— from 6×7 —–

      Sandor: You didn’t know me back in my time. You don’t know the things I’ve done.

      Ray: I’ve heard stories.

      Sandor: If the gods are real, why haven’t they punished me?

      Ray: They have.

      [S6e7]

      ———-

      Ray: “Never too late to stop robbing people, to stop killing people. Start helping people. It’s never too late to come back.”
      [S6e7]

      ————
      In S6e8, Beric tells him virtually the same thing:

      Beric: “You can still help a lot more than you’ve harmed, Clegane. It’s not too late for you.”

        Quote  Reply

    80. Dee Stark:
      Alba Stark,

      Yeah I guess you are right…. here are my guesses:

      People know I NEVER read spoilers so I wont spoiler code, but the mods can if they want:

      – Arya will reunite with the hound and CO (I think they will run into Mel as well) in season 7… and my hopes is she heads north and ARRIVES in Winterfell reuniting with whomever from her family is there. This second part may be pushed to season 8… but I hope not.
      – Sansa/Brienne and the Hound (Arya) in season 7, though this could be one pushed to 8… but I had also predicted that one of the Stark sisters would die this season 🙁 so I would hope they would reunite before that happens
      – Bran goes to Winterfell and reunites with Jon/Sansa in season 7.
      – Cersei and Jamie and Tyrion finally share a screen in season 7
      – First time meetings between Cersei and Dany and MAYBEEEEEEE Dany and Jon in season 7?? Though the second could be pushed to season 8 – A Dany and Jon meeting in season 7 would essentially mean Jon would reunite with Tyrion AND Theon (which would be interesting)
      -I had also predicted that Cersei would have to die in this season cause I don’t see her role in season 8
      – LF will die in this season (HOPEFULLY LOLS) so he wont reunite with anyone hahaha

      I cant think of any other major reunions besides Jon and Sam, which probably happen in season 8… maybe Dany and Jorah, which would probably happen in season 8…

      Well Dee, in reading your list it looks like you really have avoided the spoilers since S7 started filming last Autumn (or in Fall as you guys across the pond call the 3rd season). Kudos to you for having such strong will power 🙂

      Having seen quite a few filming spoilers on this website during the production of S7, I know more or less what characters will be meeting up (some for the first time) but I won’t mention a word on how accurate (or inaccurate ) your predictions are and will only say this… Be prepared to get your mind totally blown away and get on that hype train cos S7 is going to best one to date. It may be only be 7 episodes long, but most run for over an hour and you’re going to luv’it 😀

        Quote  Reply

    81. Things I´ve learned from GoT/ASOIAF:

      – Stick em with the pointy end
      – Winter is coming
      – EVERYONE could be a Targ
      – Waiting and don´t die on a Hype-Heartattack

        Quote  Reply

    82. Luka Nieto:
      ManderlyPieCompany,

      Hopefully TWOW will be out by 2019, but people forget A Dream of Spring comes next; the last book, that should roughly correspond to the last season… And that book will probably be only a “dream” for many, many years, I’m afraid.

      Luka, my sweet summer child. 🙂

      Judging by the way Martin’s narrative expands, I sincerely doubt there’ll be only 7 books. This thing won’t be finished until 2030, if ever.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Stark Raven’ Rad:
      With due respect, Yaga: Nooooooo-o-o-o!!!I’ve followed leaks heretofore, but I don’t want any for Season 8 because if my favourites die, there will be no hope.By S8E6 I will have lived with GoT and these characters for 20 years (I started as a baby).If bad things happen, I’ll take it in stride, but I don’t want to spend months knowing they’re going to happen but not if they’re going to happen in a sweet and not entirely bitter way. Truth to tell, it will be hard on the actors too. But at least they’re professionals and have celebrity and paychecks and friendships to console them.Sorry for whinging, but there you are.

      Oh, come on. Valar morghulis, characters *will* die. May as well be prepared, it helps with disentangling yourself emotionally.

      Also, think how quarrelsome and generally insufferable this place would be right now if the majority of us did not already know how the story would go the next season. Really, it’s almost as if DnD leaked the story themselves on purpose: it’s a month *before* the next season, and all the drama is already six months *gone*. All that remains is to admire the efficiency of the form, like clockwork. That’s a *good* outcome, personally speaking.

      e: I may be biased – the only ‘shocking moment’ I was not aware of so far beforehand was Shireen’s burning (that got leaked only the morning of the airing, I think). I *vastly* prefer watching things that I already know how they end.

        Quote  Reply

    84. A show’s seasons never used to be so far apart from each other far as I can recall. I will be honest, this decision is very awkward for many of the viewers. I mean, being an avid book reader I’m used to getting a beginning and ending to a story in a week’s time and couldn’t imagine having to put the book down for more than a year before I can read the final chapter lol. I usually do binge watching of series I find and like On Demand so GOT is becoming a bit frustrating for me lately.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Markus Stark,

      I actually find it in Show Jamie’s character. If someone can push an innocent child out the window and kill their innocent cousin, then they can force themselves on someone… next to their son’s dead body.

      And the fact that it doesn’t happen in the books doesn’t mean there was something wrong with that scene.

      The other argument, well, im not getting into that. Its a sensitive topic in these threads lol

        Quote  Reply

    86. Wolfish: On another note, we know the Brotherhood is heading north. Even if the Merry Trio go directly to the Wall, I simply can’t imagine that they won’t wind up at Winterfell at some point. (Yes, I’ve read the leaks, and no, I don’t want to have to use spoiler coding right now. Poor Dee Stark is already excluded from too many juicy convos.) Winterfell is both politically and geographically central to the North, and it’s inconceivable to me that, with everything that’s surely going to occur this season, there will not be at least one major rendezvous there featuring the main players of the Northern storyline.

      Haha thank you 🙂

      I agree, there will be major reunions there, and its so obvious that Arya is set up to reunite with the hound who is heading north… Because Arya wants to go home.

      Unless she completely surprises me and tries to head SOUTH to finish off her list.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Mr Fixit,

      What can I say? I’m an eternal optimist. But you’re right. We shouldn’t forget this was supposed to be a trilogy at some point, then a pentalogy, later still a sextology, now a septology… An octalogy is not out of the question, sadly!

        Quote  Reply

    88. Dee Stark: And the fact that it doesn’t happen in the books doesn’t mean there was something wrong with that scene.

      Actually, it does happen in the book. The scene is told from Jaime’s PoV, and he’s only dimly aware of Cersei saying know and trying to physically push him away. Sexual assault looks very different from inside the assaulter’s head than it does in reality.

      ygritte: I mean, being an avid book reader I’m used to getting a beginning and ending to a story in a week’s time and couldn’t imagine having to put the book down for more than a year before I can read the final chapter lol.

      We basically wait 7 days between the analog of chapters. Instead, this is like waiting a 12-18 months between volumes in a book series. And I think that most of us can imagine waiting multiple months between volumes in a book series….. 😉

      Luka Nieto: An octalogy is not out of the question, sadly!

      heh, I think that 3 more books is way out of the question! GRRM has to know that he’s racing the Grim Reaper to finish two more at this point: if he really cares about getting his story out in print, then he’ll focus on finishing it after Winter finally comes out.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Markus Stark:
      Dee Stark,
      A lot is wrong with that scene. Jaime rapes Cersei in it, or at least that’s how 90% of the viewership interpreted it, even though that’s not what happens in the books, it’s out of Jaime’s character, and both the actors and director said it wasn’t meant to be rape.

      It was intended to be angry dubiously consensual sex, which is what it was in the book. The line between angry dubiously consensual sex and rape is a very fine one. And both are BAD.

      Dee Stark:
      Markus Stark,
      I actually find it in Show Jamie’s character. If someone can push an innocent child out the window and kill their innocent cousin, then they can force themselves on someone… next to their son’s dead body.

      And the fact that it doesn’t happen in the books doesn’t mean there was something wrong with that scene.

      For the record it was seriously f’d up in the books too. Initial consent was in no way present. Jaime is one of my favorite characters but it blows my mind how people whitewash his worst actions, books and show alike.

        Quote  Reply

    90. QueenofThrones,

      I agree with you that it was worse in the books too ..
      When it comes to the show I simply question the need to have that scene..take that scene out it didn’t affect anything when it comes to their stories at least In the books it was the first time he sees cersei ..but since show had made jamke arrive in KL at the end of season3 they ckuld have simply avoided this scene and by doing so they coild have avoided plenty of controversies and criticisms ..

      Wimsey,

      I don’t think he seriously believes or cares anymore about the TDOs ..once show is done his motivation and interest will decline even more ..

      Its been 3 years since he stopped working for show and focusing only on books and add the 4 years before that and chapters that were moved to TWoW and no such thing as meereenese knot ..Winds should have been finished by now but it looks like we are no way near to its release

        Quote  Reply

    91. QueenofThrones,

      “It was intended to be angry dubiously consensual sex, which is what it was in the book. The line between angry dubiously consensual sex and rape is a very fine one. And both are BAD”.

      It is a very fine line, but they aren’t both bad, or at least not equally. If consent is present in the mind of both parties, it’s not rape, plain and simple. The problem is we aren’t in the mind of both parties, especially not in the show, and so we rely on what it looks like to judge consent.

        Quote  Reply

    92. QueenofThrones: It was intended to be angry dubiously consensual sex, which is what it was in the book.

      Hmm, if a woman was hitting me and saying “stop,” I would not consider it to be “dubiously consensual.” Of course, what I (a modern enlightened male and thus only 79% pig) consider necessary for consent is very different from what someone in this sort of society would consider “consent”: Jaime’s world would be one in which a woman who had ever consented to sex was considered to have given carte blanche to sex anytime. Nobody in such a world would compare this to tossing Bran out of a window or killing a King that you had sworn to protect. That is important to keep in mind: GRRM and B&W laid out the values of these societies early, and we need to judge the characters by their personal values within the range of their possible values: in a way, this is no different from claiming that Daenerys is selfishly “entitled” to the crown when the idea that the eldest child of a deposed king might not pursue the crown is as outside of possible values as is the idea that a man could rape his wife or lover. (Lest you scoff: there are still plenty of people in our world who do not believe that men can rape their wives or lovers; in the US, they get elected to Congress!)

      My main point? Our values are just as or even more anachronistic in a medieval world than medieval values are in our world.

      dragonbringer: I don’t think he seriously believes or cares anymore about the TDOs ..once show is done his motivation and interest will decline even more ..

      That might be. Or it’s possible that GRRM feels that he’s been “scooped” by his own show and the resulting misery has made renewed work more difficult. (I can relate to that one!) Alternatively, he might have decided to add or embellish a bunch of stuff that the show cut from the story. After all, he might tell himself that the readers already have the main plot and story, so he has to provide them with something new. Heck, maybe the old Internet story that GRRM deliberately did this to torment a fanbase is true! (I really, really doubt that: but, hey, I suppose that it is not impossible….)

        Quote  Reply

    93. Dee Stark:
      Markus Stark,

      I actually find it in Show Jamie’s character. If someone can push an innocent child out the window and kill their innocent cousin, then they can force themselves on someone… next to their son’s dead body.

      And the fact that it doesn’t happen in the books doesn’t mean there was something wrong with that scene.

      The other argument, well, im not getting into that. Its a sensitive topic in these threads lol

      The idea that if someone is capable of attempted murder (or even actual murder) then they must also be capable of rape doesn’t hold up whatsoever. That’s a massive logical jump, and very simplistic reasoning.

      You may find it hard to believe, but many people who commit horrible acts still do have certain lines they don’t cross, and many people oppose rape more than murder. I mean killing someone can sometimes be justified, in the case of self-defense for example. Raping someone is NEVER justified.

      You can’t say it’s in show Jaime’s character because of what he did to Bran, because he did the same thing to Bran in the books, yet doesn’t like rape. He did it because he feared that if Bran told someone, then Robert would kill Cersei, Jaime, and the kids. It was a desperate measure that he viewed as necessary. However the books are very clear about the fact that Jaime despises rape. There is no reason for this to be different on the show.

      As for you saying that the fact that it doesn’t happen in the books doesn’t mean there was something wrong with it, I disagree.
      When you take a character who has a clear and well-known opposition to rape, and you make him do something that looks very similar to rape, there is something very wrong. Why make Jaime worse ? Further, why make him worse right around the time that he was beginning his “redemption” arc (I know it isn’t really redemption, but I lack a better word) ?

      This would be like deciding to have Jon rape Ygritte back in Season 3. Of course there’s something wrong with it. When the source material tells you : “Jaime does fucked up things for misguided reasons, but rape is something he despises”, it makes no sense to change that in any way.

      And as we know from the writers, actors, and director, they didn’t really intend to change it all that much. They thought they were producing a scene of consensual sex, even though it didn’t look that way to anyone. That’s the issue. It’s called being tone-deaf. They had no clue that their consensual scene played as a rape. That’s a major directing misstep.

        Quote  Reply

    94. HelloThere,

      Yup. Bad move my friend haha. People lose all sense of reason when it comes to these topics, and it leads to endless debates that are just annoying and not productive in any way.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Wimsey: Hmm, if a woman was hitting me and saying “stop,” I would not consider it to be “dubiously consensual.”Of course, what I (a modern enlightened male and thus only 79% pig) consider necessary for consent is very different from what someone in this sort of society would consider “consent”: Jaime’s world would be one in which a woman who had ever consented to sex was considered to have given carte blanche to sex anytime.

      I think what’s going through Jaime’s mind here is very much like what goes through the minds of what we call “date rapists” today. They are assaulting their victims either way – which is why I said that in books or show what Jaime did was BAD. He knew it was screwed up but didn’t care because what he wanted (sex) mattered more. Like you said, he was “dimly aware” she was shouting no and pushing her away. But he pushed past that until she gave in.

      In our culture (and that of Westeros) male entitlement to sex is a major issue – as is the constant romanticization of “ravishment” aka rape. GRRM is exploring that with this scene.

      in a way, this is no different from claiming that Daenerys is selfishly “entitled” to the crown when the idea that the eldest child of a deposed king might not pursue the crown is as outside of possible values as is the idea that a man could rape his wife or lover.

      Daenerys still quite clearly believes that it is important to have a good reason to make her claim as queen – whether that’s anachronistic or not doesn’t really matter – GRRM makes it clear that these considerations are important. That is to say, there should be justification. It’s perhaps fair to say her justification is naive – but it is not simply being done because that’s the culture and so she feels she has the right. She is doing it because she believes that Westeros would be better off with her leading it than the Baratheons. Some people agree so she gets an army.

      It’s also made clear that the idea of marital rape exists in GRRM’s world (examples being Theon’s horror to Ramsey/Jeyne as well as Cersei’s and Jaime’s anger about Cersei/Robert). Also people are not culture robots and they know that hurting other people is wrong. Jaime knew at some level what he was doing was wrong – he just didn’t care in that moment.

      That might be.Or it’s possible that GRRM feels that he’s been “scooped” by his own show and the resulting misery has made renewed work more difficult.(I can relate to that one!)

      haha you’re an academic IIRC, as am I… Scoopage is such a constant fear – I’ve tried to avoid it by working on such an esoteric corner of my field that hardly anyone else is bothering with it. 😉

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    96. Markus Stark: It is a very fine line, but they aren’t both bad, or at least not equally. If consent is present in the mind of both parties, it’s not rape, plain and simple. The problem is we aren’t in the mind of both parties, especially not in the show, and so we rely on what it looks like to judge consent.

      From the information Jaime had when he initiated sex, Cersei did not consent. Quite the opposite. I believe she said “no no no” “not here” and physically hit him repeatedly when he grabbed her and pushed her down.

      Markus Stark: Why make Jaime worse ? Further, why make him worse right around the time that he was beginning his “redemption” arc (I know it isn’t really redemption, but I lack a better word) ?

      I guess I am wondering, what do you think that this scene served to illustrate in the books, if not a reversion back towards his old self (after having started on a redemptive path)? Because that’s what it read as to me. I was quite disgusted with Jaime after I read this.

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    97. Dee Stark: its so obvious that Arya is set up to reunite with the hound who is heading north… Because Arya wants to go home.

      For my own personal desires, I don’t think it’s time yet for Arya and Sandor to meet again. I need it to stew some more. Their positions last we saw them should put them in the area to do that, but I think we need a ‘just missed’ type of situation between them like those they experienced while together. I’m kind of expecting not to see him or the Bros until they’re quite a ways north. I’m actually hoping that’s the case. To be honest I really don’t want Arya hanging out with the Brotherhood. Alone again with just Sandor yes, but not mixed in with a band of (un)merry men. She has her own arc and I don’t want those guys draggin’ along on her cloaktails. 🙂

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    98. Markus Stark,

      Oh no no no, I am not saying that because he is capable of murder, he is capable of rape. I apologize if that is how it sounded.

      As someone who has NOT read the books, I know Jamie as he is presented in the show. And I never was once given the impression that he is NOT okay with rape. Unfortunately for you, because you have read the books, you have your image of Jamie and no matter how hard you try, you cant help but think of that Jamie when you are watching the show.

      What I was trying to say was that on a very superficial basis, it is not completely shocking what how things went down in the sept, especially because of his obsession with his love for Cersei. And I agree with QueenofThrones, , that is how I saw the scene, and to me in line with his obsession/love/anger since his return with Cersei.

      Out of character, show wise, would be if all of a sudden Bran rapes Meera. Very obvious out of character. This is how I perceived it for Jamie in that moment. Especially considering the lead up to that moment, how there was anger and tension since his one handed return.

      And I agree it is a fine line as Queen of Thornes said. We don’t all have to agree…

      Its funny though, how multiple people have said its happened in the books, and was worse in the books?? Etc….

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    99. QueenofThrones,
      Thank you for your response, and explanation… and Wimsey’s as well. I wasn’t aware it was the same in the books, because others have said otherwise. I agree about your comment regarding people whitewashing Jamie’s worst actions.

      I was watching these reaction videos recently, by a guy who never watched before. And in his discussions with the other guy (who has watched the seasons multiple times over) he HATE Cat for how she treated Jon, and her story regarding Jon and wishing death upon him… he even said that she deserved all her suffering, yet he loved Jamie…. and when Jamie had his hand chopped off he didn’t see it as “Karma” for all the bad shit that he had done… and this is coming from a casual viewer.
      That part bugs me about SOME Jamie fans. They contradict themselves.

      dragonbringer: QueenofThrones,
      I agree with you that it was worse in the books too ..
      When it comes to the show I simply question the need to have that scene..take that scene out it didn’t affect anything when it comes to their stories at least In the books it was the first time he sees cersei ..but since show had made jamke arrive in KL at the end of season3 they ckuld have simply avoided this scene and by doing so they coild have avoided plenty of controversies and criticisms ..

      I think D&D included so that book readers didn’t complain that it wasn’t included, and I guess that backfired hahahaha

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    100. QueenofThrones: I guess I am wondering, what do you think that this scene served to illustrate in the books, if not a reversion back towards his old self (after having started on a redemptive path)? Because that’s what it read as to me. I was quite disgusted with Jaime after I read this.

      I agree. It is part of his “redemption” arc.
      And it also further indicates that SHE brings out the worst in him.

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    101. Id like to add that here, we have many eloquent speakers/writers, and I am not one of them. LOL… Sometimes its hard for me to explain properly what I am trying to say/convey… or make it sound pretty in any way.

      I am a CPA… writing is NOT my forte HAHA

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    102. HelloThere: We need a Sophie Turner interview to distract

      Why, how fortuitous it is that you bring that up!

      Today we’ll publish a piece about a new Sophie Turner interview with VOGUE. After the trailer, of course 😛

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    103. Hahahaha I guess there is a new trailer!

      Im on my work computer which disables videos, but the frozen image was on the NIGHT KING himself.

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    104. Luka Nieto: Why, how fortuitous it is that you bring that up!

      Today we’ll publish a piece about a new Sophie Turner interview with VOGUE. After the trailer, of course 😛

      I’m not even joking about this… I had just looked at Google GoT news and saw the article. I came directly back here to plead, please, please do NOT post a thread about Sophie’s hair article.

      Son of a $@&@# 🙁

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    105. Clob: I’m not even joking about this…I had just looked at Google GoT news and saw the article.I came directly back here to plead, please, please do NOT post a thread about Sophie’s hair article.

      Son of a $@&@# 🙁

      Hahahaha!!!! But it’s like, badass boss b*tch hair. Everyone should listen to it. No one ever listens.

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    106. Don’t worry, Dee, I’m just reading the tea leaves. There was an unusual tone to this, a shift in voice (literally), ominous. Either D&D are dropping huge hints or they’re pulling our legs. Oh, and there was way too much Sansa for me. But that’s a small matter.

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    107. Wolfish,

      HAHAHAHA I know
      I happen to be ON twitter when they posted it

      I haven’t watched yet

      but I think I maaaaaaaaaaaaay

      Im trying to convince my sister to watch it with me!!!!!!!

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    108. While the wait will be torturous, I’m actually ok with this. They should take the time they need to make the show the best it can be. This is the ending, they should NOT mess it up. Hoping we’ll have TWOW between S7 & 8 !!!

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    109. Flayed Potatoes:
      Praying to the Lord of Light for a late 2018 release.

      I doubt it will. PR is just saying 2018/2019 so fans won’t freak out. It will be 2019 and after football season. HBO is s t r e t c h i n g out the end for their own scheduling/financial purposes and while very, very annoying, I will say that at least HBO makes all all previous seasons available and free to subscribers OnDemand. Some premium channels now make subscribers pay for older original content. Outrageous.

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