Game of Thrones Debuts Trailer #2 for Season 7: Winter is Here! Plus, Posters Are Coming!

Beric Dondarrion

Fans have been wondering if- or when- Game of Thrones would unveil a second trailer for the new season. Well, without any teases or warning, on an uneventful Wednesday- here it is! And it is a doozy, packed with action scenes, and scored by season 6’s most haunting piece of music. Just hit the play button, already!


Of course, we’ll be back in a few hours with a shot-by-shot analysis of the new trailer, when we’re done freaking out over the return of Beric and his bitchin’ fire sword and the battle shots and “When the snows fall, and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.”

Thoughts, reactions, meltdowns? Let’s hear it!

Oh, and there’s more! Today, Game of Thrones is releasing the Season 7 character posters! But you have to help out. Twitter users will be able to reveal the 12 character posters by tweeting different combinations of #WinterisHere and an emoji at @GameofThrones. So get crackin’, people!

Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com

503 Comments

  1. This is a masterpiece trailer.

    Everything was gorgeous.. The locations, the battles, the dialogue delivery
    This will be the best season yet.

  2. HYPE. That’s a great trailer. I’ve been kinda meh on a lot of the marketing lately, but this one was spot on.

  3. Still processing it, but I think that might be the best Thrones trailer ever! Though it does look like Vladimir Furdik is indeed back as the Night King, rather than Richard Brake.

  4. Okay, if THAT trailer doesn’t break the hype meter nothing will!!

    That last shot of Jon bashing and standing there is cool

  5. Love seeing new footage, but didn’t really like this 2nd trailer — way too many cuts, it was all over the place.

  6. So is this trailer better than the first one??

    I havent seen either yet.

    You guys are hyping the shit out of me and I am already hyped soooooooooo much

  7. It was a wise choice to use “Light of the Seven” for the music.
    Even though it jumps around a lot like trailers tend to do, this is a great one and as one could expect, probably the most spoilery of anything we’ve gotten this promo period. Wow!

  8. For anyone that hasn’t thought the dragons were big enough… Freeze it at 1:16 when Drogon is flying over the battlefield. Daenerys is about the size of one of his spikes!

  9. That’s one of the best trailers for GOT ever. Every shot looks amazing.

    So disappointed that Brake isn’t back as the NK(also weird that GOT is using his image in Twitter), but I love seeing some white walker action.

  10. Yeah boooooooi!!

    This one shits all over the first trailer! Boners!!

    BRAN HAS A WHEELCHAIR FINALLY!! AND THERE IS A FLOCK OF RAVENS!! I LOVE U BRAN!!

    AND JAIME LOOKS SO HOT GALLOPING ON THAT FIELD OF FIRE *FANS SELF*

    AND JON HAS NEW LINES AND HE HAS….AN AMAZING WAIST LMAO.

    Who was jumping that high on that ship on fire btw??

    Only thing I’m not here for is Sandra the Scammer stealing Ned’s lines.

    I need to rewatch this trailer like 9847398743 times. Can’t wait for the breakdowns.

  11. NO WAY!!!! I got no notification from Youtube! Its lucky I check this site regulary! YOU ROCK GUYS! 🤘

  12. Charlie Stark:
    is bran at Winterfell and the other person is Sansa next to him;?

    It is a man with a bold spot and a black cloak. I would guess maester wolkan at winterfell 🙂

  13. Ah, that’s a brilliant trailer!

    How much I wish the last dialog be Sansa’s reply to Littlefinger’s scheming.

    And is that another showdown between Bran and the Night’s King through the crows?

  14. They put this on the HBO youtube account rather than the official GOT account which is weird.
    They’d have a lot more hits otherwise.

  15. Already watched it multiple times.

    Looks like Sandor drawing his sword at the Dragonpit at 1:22.
    Nothing like a little Clegane Bowl hype.
  16. FUCK!!!

    That was amazing.

    Holy. Fucking. Shit.

    I lost it at “The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives”, and I know I’m not the only one!

    Can anyone tell if Euron’s armor is Valyrian Steel? It looks like black steel with a sigil, but the shot is unclear. I would totally lose it if it was. Silence is dope!

  17. ‘The Lone Wolf dies, but the pack survives’ and then a shot of Jon north of the wall fighting…

    Bran, Arya and Sansa all at winterfell, and Jon north of the wall alone…

    Hmm…

    The Beric Lightsaber sent me catching flies as well, what a trailer this is.

  18. Not sure who that is standing next to Bran by the tree. Kinda has the look of the 3 eyed raven from behind?

  19. Best trailer in the history of trailers.

    “When the snows fall, and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.” Can’t remember the last time I’ve been this excited about a line of dialogue. Probably Season 3.

    Even the biggest blockbuster action movies don’t put out trailers like this. This is what wet trailer dreams are made of. Okay, gotta go watch it another 354’782 times.

  20. Bran at winterfell? Who is the measter like character standing there? More visions? Hopefully past, most likely just spying on the white walkers warging into a thousand ravens! Jon fighting with dondarrion and his flaming sword.. like azor ahai?! Seems like Sansa is being nagged by little finger till season 8?! I think missandei kissed grey worm amidst the flaming battle and it might be more of a kiss goodbye 🙁 I wonder who Jon is speaking to? Deanerys? Cercei? Also sounds like Sansa is reading from a book about the white walkers and the long night, hopefully she listens to the wolves surviving in packs and not let little finger drive an ax between her and Jon or any other siblings

  21. This trailer has officially made me unproductive today. It’s all I’ll be thinking of.

    Golds,

    Looks like Maester Wolkan to me.

  22. LadyStarfall:
    Clob,

    Looks like Missandei and Greyworm

    Yeah, you’re right. On my first few my eyes didn’t adjust properly and I couldn’t recognize them. I thought perhaps it was ‘another couple’

  23. Flayed Potatoes,

    Also try not to be a misogynist. Ned is dead and his daughter does homage to him that sends chills up my spine! Best use of book dialogue Ever! #wolfgurlpower

  24. Outstanding just pure awesome

    1) who is the person standing next to bran

    2) isn’t it cool to have a battle at the south ..
    We can talk about costumes all day but Jamie in lannister armor is such a badass only tywin can give him a competition

  25. Demon monkey,

    I’d say definitely. Meera is crafty, but I don’t think she can build a wheelchair considering where they were left last season.

    I squealed when I saw that he finally got one lol. SO embarrassing.

  26. Flayed Potatoes,

    Well she could be repeating something she’d heard her fond papa say (I know book Ned says it). I’ve never hated Sansa myself but horses for courses I guess.

  27. Actually excited for the dialogue since season 3/4 with that last line. Hope they don’t let us down.

  28. When the snows fall, and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

    Damn, what a trailer! So fucking hyped right now!

  29. The ravens are coming! Beric’s flaming sword. The Hound. Jamie fooking Lannister jousting in the middle of a field of fire. Jon & Co standing on a small piece of high ground surrounded by a sea of wights. So much more! Max hype in this trailer..

  30. Demon monkey:
    Flayed Potatoes,

    If Bran has a wheelchair, does this mean he is south of the wall?

    That can be confirmed I believe with the aerial shot of Bran and Meera at the gate to Castle Black. 🙂 Those promo shots that looked like they were probably approaching the gate seem to be exactly what they were.

  31. I can´t even begin to process it… Amazing trailer!!! I’ll need to watch it several times, frame by frame.

  32. Who cares if Sansa delivered that line
    Sophie spoke is so beautifully.
    Made me tear up.

  33. And for once, I actually really loved Aiden’s delivery of LF’s lines.
    Sounded more smooth, and less mustache-twirly

  34. Demon monkey,

    I know right? My work productivity just plummeted. I was going to start working now, but I just had to check WotW and BOOM.

    The wheelchair got a bigger scream from me than all the wight scenes combined. #priorities

  35. Let the over-interpretation begin! 😀

    Alas: with no cover-tune being played, we don’t know if the song itself will give us a tip-off of as to what the story is the way that it has a couple of times in the past. Perhaps B&W are keeping the story close to their chests: after all, some people already knew the prior stories because of the book, but this year we only know that the story is about internal confliction about _______: and everything is in the blank line! 🙁

  36. The Wolves of Winter: When the snows fall, and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

    Sadly, a lot of conservation biologists will tell you that the pack only might survive….. 🙁

  37. I now believe it will be Bran who will make dany go north of the wall

    Pigeon,

    And greyworm at casterly rock

    Clob,

    Poor dany soon she will become even smaller than those spikes on drogon’s back
    I hope you liked the first few seconds of the trailer though

  38. Very beautifully done. I know what I’ll be re-watching over and over during my lunch break!

  39. Okay guys I’m freaking out!!This trailer blew the other one out of the water.And there was so much Jon I’m in heaven.Bran my baby so glad he got a wheelchair.Jaime looks so badass.Jon continues his Troy Bolton routine but I get you baby I do and they are obviously cutting lines in the middle not to give anything away.By the end of this season Jon is literally be a living legend in their world.But everything looks so great I don’t know what to say first lol.

  40. That said: could it be that this year’s story is about choosing your battles, with the main characters having the angel on the left shoulder say “Fight Battle A” and the angel on the right shoulder say “Fight Battle B”?

    Ooh, man: I want a whole lot of Internet points if I’m right! 😀

  41. How are not só many people excited??????????????

    This is the best got trailer by far and onde of the most amazing in history.

  42. I’d just like to point out that Light of the Seven remains one of the most haunting songs I’ve ever listened to and it’s certainly one of the greatest songs in television history.

  43. Charlie Stark,

    Yes, I think that Bran is at Winterfell…check out his chair. That would take some time to make I’d think. My guess is it’s Maester Wolkan standing next to him.

  44. holy fuckn’ cow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    this is the best thing, ever! euron’s armada is gorgeous!

    I didn’t know the starks once fought besides the targs centuries ago, but then I’m not a book reader so…..

  45. This was awesome! So much of Sansa and Jon…Beric Dondarrion got the most awesome shot in the trailer lmao!

  46. Anyone else catch that shot of the raven being warged into? I can’t wait for this shot-by-shot breakdown!

  47. Derek: Anyone else catch that shot of the raven being warged into? I can’t wait for this shot-by-shot breakdown!

    I was wondering: are those warged ravens or zombied ravens? We see that blue color in both, don’t we?

  48. Wimsey,

    Hah, well here in Europe wolves are seemingly on the rise again. And in the Netherlands we’ve had some lone wolves, but since they were alone they of course died.

  49. Flayed Potatoes:
    Pigeon,

    IT BETTER! Only the best for my sweet boy!

    Or maybe a skidoo type traction belt? Lol!

    Derek:
    Anyone else catch that shot of the raven being warged into?I can’t wait for this shot-by-shot breakdown!

    It’s just blinking. Birds have third eyelids that protect them from injury.

  50. Not sure if anyone spotted this yet. I’m so excited. Bran is in his sled with Meera in front of the Night’s Watch tunnel gate! It’s a fast frame. I know there wasn’t much doubt they he would make it to Castle Black, but I was so excited to spot them at the gate and the gate goes up!!

    Lots of Arya clips on a horse this year. Hopefully she does more than ride the horse all season. My guess is Arya just has less huge action scenes, but she’ll be very deadly.

  51. That shot of Jaime charging alone with his lance on horseback across a fiery battlefield… Wow.

    Beric got the best shot though.

  52. In the first scene with Sansa, she look sad and it seems that she is not alone, because before the scene change, she was half turned to check something or someone

    And I think the audios of Jon and Sansa are addressed to the Northern lords

  53. Wimsey,

    That’s obviously a main theme this year, they’ve been pushing that with the promotional materials (Davos and Jon trying to convince someone to choose the fight against the WW)

  54. ramses:
    So amazing 🙂

    Does the shadowy figure at 1:22 look like

    Yes, and his knees are amazing! 😉

    Can we just agree that Richard Dormer wins the internet today?

  55. Wimsey: Yeah!Trump said it first, right?

    “Any news claiming I did not say the line first are FAKE NEWS! Sad.
    #Sansathatsmyhair!!”

  56. Borrr…OH MY GOD! *heavy breathing* Dang good trailer. Glad they avoided using a remixed pop song like last year. I like Chris Isaak’s Wicked Game, but that was not a song for ASOIAF. Just my opinion.

  57. Pigeon,

    Yeah, that’s why I was wondering whether we are seeing zombie-eyes after a blink, or the obligatory normal-blink-warged sequence.

    I’m not fussed either way…..

  58. I hope that scene of Tyrion on cliffs and dragons departing is good and great …it has been shown so many times..

    When we saw that shot of Wall and bran and meera there ..was I the only one who is thinking do the NW even have that many numbers to lift the gates open .

  59. Grail King,

    She looks contemplative & resolute to me. Even with sequences, it’s dangerous to read too much into expressions: we use very similar ones for lots of different things.

  60. flintstonewielder: “Any news claiming I did not say the line first are FAKE NEWS! Sad.
    #Sansathatsmyhair!!”

    “I have it on good authority that Jon is not even Ned Stark’s son… oh, wait, that ones real?”

  61. Demon monkey: That’s obviously a main theme this year, they’ve been pushing that with the promotional materials (Davos and Jon trying to convince someone to choose the fight against the WW)

    I think that it might go beyond a theme and be the actual story. There might be a theme regarding what sorts of choices are good ones: but this tends to be an athematic story. Choices are not “right” or “wrong” so much as “more or less disastrous.” I.e., much like our world!

    (Oh, and I am pretty much ignorant of what has been happening, save for what we’ve seen in trailers and some of the obvious directions given last season.)

  62. It’s been a while since I last commented on this website…I guess this trailer was the hard-on I needed! So much better than the first one!
    I can’t decide which character had the most badass shot…But Jon cutting down that wight and just standing there like a boss was definately a highlight.
    Has anyone else seen Euron killing a guy with an axe?? How awesome was that.

    There are still a lot of frames to analyse. Is Abyss still on the Gif business??

  63. Wimsey:
    Pigeon,

    Yeah, that’s why I was wondering whether we are seeing zombie-eyes after a blink, or the obligatory normal-blink-warged sequence.

    I’m not fussed either way…..

    It’d be like them to just create an innocent blink to make us all speculate. 😂 I’m not fussed either, as long as an errant snowflake to the eyeball doesn’t cause a navigational disaster. 😜

  64. Flayed Potatoes,

    I’m pretty sure Sansa will be quoting the ever present Ned, so I don’t mind that at all. Also shows she is putting her pack above any ambitions Littlefinger thinks he’s stoking.

  65. ghost of winterfell,

    My hands are still shaking and I have like 20 tabs opened so I can read ALL the reactions and breakdowns.

    I am, as the kids say, SHOOK! I’ve never been this shook by a GoT trailer before.

  66. corinnestark,

    Sansa could be trying to convince her siblings to follow her plan and using Ned’s line as a rhetorical device. Or she might have decided to retire and raise dire wolves who are endangered by White Walker habitat destruction. Yeah, that sounds good, too! 😛

  67. ghost of winterfell,

    Thought so ..I guess we know when it happens ..looks like he is going to increase his WW Kill count

    who is the guy that unsheathed a sword .. Is that the amphitheatre standing in for dragonpit we see in the trailer ..

  68. Flayed Potatoes: My hands are still shaking and I have like 20 tabs opened so I can read ALL the reactions and breakdowns.

    heh, when I read this, I envisioned you with 20 open cans of the diet Coca-cola beverage….

  69. Oh and there was a shot of Jon and Davos without that depressing blue filter. Dreams come true (where’s ghost of winterfell?)!

  70. Benjen must be the one who saves Jon at the end. They need to reunite. What a moment that would be.

  71. So wait,
    Beric can now make his sword flame up on demand?
    Who was fighting with Jon north of the wall (where Jon is standing on the rock).
    I see Beric right, Tormand back, and who to the left? Hound maybe?

  72. @)(#%*A)S(G*SDOLKJGALSDKRHWEORU#@)Q($*Q#@)($*@#)APIDFXGJLKASDJFLKSJR LIWQURQ#$OERDIFBFDSLKADJAFDFIGOSAHWLIGKJWRATS

    ARGHHH I dont’ know what to do with all this hype!!!!!!!!!

  73. Guys that shot of Jon and Davos,Jaime through the battlefield,everything north of the wall I don’t know what to first be exited about.That last shot of Jon though.

  74. dragonbringer: I hope you liked the first few seconds of the trailer though

    “few seconds”? That is like 17.5 seconds of Sansa walking! Well at least we know that she will be in more than just those two spots during the season. yehH!?

  75. Great trailer!! Looks like Jon is in trouble again. However,

    i believe he is the only one riding a horse out of there which means Tormund Giantsbane and Beric Dondarrion are dead?
  76. I’m not very good at identifying voices, but I have the impression that its Arya who finishes after Sansa with “the pack survives”

  77. The first trailer was great. This one is SUPERB. It may well rival “Seven Devils” as my favorite GOT trailer ever. I think I need to watch it again … say, ten thousand more times to be sure. 😉

    Beric’s flaming sword! Jaime charging across a fiery battlefield! Sansa’s closing quote (people have been hopefully reciting that line for years)! Bran and his flock of ravens! And so, so, so much more! And all set to the Light of the Seven as well. This is a piece of art. A masterclass!

    I’m sure its theoretically possible for my anticipation to reach even higher levels, but right now it feels like I’m standing on the pinnacle of the Hightower. Get here, July 16!

  78. Is that maybe Marwyn with Bran by the heart tree?

    Love the wheel chair! No more dragging around 😀

  79. Pigeon,

    I know!!!! That kills me! But remember that story about the 12 going north of the wall? I’m clinging to that hope.

  80. Jen,

    Don’t be too nervous: Jon is one of the main characters, and thus he has to be there at the climax. All the ways in which he’s been evolving need to have the big pay off when he makes Awful Choice A with us (hopefully!) understanding why he did that rather than Awful Choices B, C or D. ($5 says “Because Ned sacrificed his honor to save me” will be a big contributing factor!)

  81. Clob,
    Lol
    Looks like they found a way to slow down the incoming Wights

    I do believe that Jon is speaking with dany when talking about the past..
    Another shot of dany on the steps which we saw during filming ..

  82. tiny direwolf: Is that maybe Marwyn with Bran by the heart tree?

    ? When has a Marwyn ever been on the show? (The name is dimly familiar: is it a book character that got cut?)

  83. I’m a ghost typing this post from the beyond. Cause of death? Well, I think it’s obvious.

  84. ghost of winterfell,

    Yeah it looks like him ..but I didn’t think dragonpit will look like that

    Jenny,

    I guess That shot of Davis and Jon is when they meet certain someone face to face for the first time

  85. tiny direwolf:
    Is that maybe Marwyn with Bran by the heart tree?

    Love the wheel chair! No more dragging around

    That was one of my thoughts as well. It could be a servant, Ser Davos even , or a man of the Night’s Watch. But yes, it could be Marwyn or another Maester of the Citadel. Marwyn might not even physically be there, if he is using a glass candle (though I expect that trick is being left for Sam.)

  86. Dee Stark:
    So is this trailer better than the first one??

    I havent seen either yet.

    You guys are hyping the shit out of me and I am already hyped soooooooooo much

    Oh Dee! I’m so excited for you!! It’s hyping me up even more to know how hyped you are! #crowdmentality

  87. Wimsey,

    It’s a book character who may appear this season..
    In AFFC Sam meets him and tell the news about aemon death and inform him about dany and what aemon wanted… Marwyn leaves citadel to meet dany

  88. Winter in Summer and I’m here for it.
    And why do we only hear LF, Jon, and Sansa speak????? Omg.

  89. dragonbringer: In AFFC Sam meets him and tell the news about aemon death and inform him about dany and what aemon wanted… Marwyn leaves citadel to meet dany

    Ah, thanks: I dimly remember him now. I don’t think I have read Crows since W was recently re-elected.

  90. Belacel:
    I’m not very good at identifying voices, but I have the impression that its Arya who finishes after Sansa with “the pack survives”

    Arya’s not the one who lost her wolf. The won who lost her connection to the North is Sansa. While it’s pretty clear D&D are writing an entirely new character arc for Sansa instead of the one GRRM has written for her – they will end more or less in the same place.

    And that place doesn’t necessarily end with Sansa still alive at the end. The Sansa lovers need to prepare themselves for that distinct possibility. GRRM has been foreshadowing her betrayal of her family since Book 1 (when she actually DID betray Ned). The lone wolf dies but the pack survives has always been interpreted to mean by fans that Sansa is the one who dies – as she has lost her wolf.

  91. Shawn,

    So wait,
    Beric can now make his sword flame up on demand?
    Who was fighting with Jon north of the wall (where Jon is standing on the rock).
    I see Beric right, Tormand back, and who to the left? Hound maybe?

    That’s what was throwing me off too! I thought he always lit it in the fire, not on command. If that’s the case then my theories are thrown out the window!!

  92. dragonbringer,

    I think that will be inside but they will see something else here.Anyway the blue filter of hell it’s gone thank the gods.That shot of Dany on Drogon arriving on Dragonstone is great.You know when it is right??I can’t wait

  93. “…but the pack survives”

    CHILLS

    Am so glad they’re using that music. It’s so haunting. Hopefully a theme they’ll incorporate into episodes this season.

  94. First trailer has 30 million views. Any chance this gets 30 mil? Why did the HBO YT channel post it and not the GoT channel?

  95. I’m trying not to get too overhyped and forget that confirmation bias is a thing. But I’m still taking the trailer as possible evidence that my long standing belief that Sansa will kill Littlefinger is correct.

    Maybe she’s considering a plan of LF’s to get rid of Jon and install her as Queen in the North. Then he gets overconfident and confesses to her just how much he was involved in the death of Ned and she’s like “oh hell no”

    The look over her shoulder at something by the heart tree seems important. As does the fact that it starts out with voiceover of LF and his usual skeeviness and then ends with her delivering that line of Ned’s. That line represents the exact opposite of everything LF stands for. I know people are freaking out about her saying it, but it’s probably for a reason.

    The promotional material so far really goes out its way to sell Littlefinger as being super menacing and creepy. It makes me think we’ve reached the end of his part of the story. What better way for Sansa to graduate from piece to player and avenge her family? To me it seems like this has where things have been headed ever since he purple wedding.

    I know that it’s really easy to use trailers to confirm your own biases, so keeping my expectations reasonable. But until the season starts, this is the theory I’m going with.

  96. Please, all the gods, let Sansa be saying that over LF’s cooling remains!! #StarkRules

  97. Wimsey,

    I hope you are right!! GRRM’s words haunt me though.

    “You don’t get to live forever just because you are a cute kid or the hero’s best friend or the hero. Sometimes the hero dies, at least in my books.”

  98. Jenny: That shot of Dany on Drogon arriving on Dragonstone is great.

    Dragon looks AMAZING in that shot! Just a-m-a-z-i-n-g!

  99. It appears the shot of the Greyjoy ships approaching KL is confirmation that Euron does indeed magically build a massive fleet in very little time. :/

  100. Steel_Wind,

    omgggg nooooooooooooo

    Can someone argue against this?!?!

    I had a feeling she would betray her family because this was foreshadowed by the death of her wolf… but, please someone tell me this is wrong. I really hope all my starks survive season 7, together. And I was really hoping sansa would outplay LF

  101. I don’t think Sansa will betray Jon or the Starks. She already screwed over Ned when she was younger and more naive. She’s come a long way since then. Littlefinger might take her to the brink this season but I thinks she learns nothing if she betrays her family again.

  102. My oh my. So much to take in here. Dragonstone and the dragons just look amazing. This one has more going on than trailer no 1. It is a real whirlwind. Counting down the days now to July 16. I just hope the rest of the dialogue this season will be as good as in this trailer. Everyone had their serious game faces on. And did that raven have blue eyes?

  103. HATE the new Night King. Looks like a Halloween costume compared to the true evil Hardhome Night King.

  104. Like this one *a lot* better than the first trailer.
    Some wonky CGI there with the ravens but the Sansa bits more than make up for it.

  105. WAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!! *faints*. S7 is looking so action packed I’m gonna get exhaustion just from watching.

    Flayed Potatoes:
    Who was jumping that high on that ship on fire btw??

    I think it might be Yara? Seems to be someone with shoulder(ish) length tied back hair, wearing similar clothes to the ones we’ve seen her in.

    Anyone know who the person keeling over next to the rowing boat is? First thought was Theon,

    but might be Gendry after his epic 4 year round the world rowing expedition?
  106. Initial thoughts:

    1) This is the best trailer I have ever seen in the history of trailers!

    2) The emphasis is very much on “The Great War” we’re told is now here – very definitely here judging by all the shots of Jon.

    3) Happy to see Bran and Meera get south of the Wall – where they hopefully get to see Edd!!

    4) Finally we get to see Bronn though fleetingly (he’s on a horse next to Jaime behind the Lannister archers).

    5) No Sam at all in this trailer – which only gets me more excited for his story arc given how little we’ve seen of it. It is obviously being hidden for a reason.

    6) Now that Hodor is sadly no more, it is good to see that Bran won’t need to be dragged everywhere the way Meera has been moving him on that sled. I would love to know who that is speaking to him, but like everyone else Wolkan is the only guess I’ve got.

    7) Jon’s line about working together – I think it would fit in well in the Northern Council meeting we saw so much of in trailer one, pretty much Jon saying he no longer cares who they were loyal to before as long as they work with him now against their common enemy.

    8) Pleased Jaime will apparently be doing quite a bit more than standing by Cersei’s side next season.

    9) I love the line about the lone wolf – I was disappointed it was left out in season one, but great to hear it here, even if we can’t have Ned deliver it.

    10) All the wintry stuff with Jon and his gang looks amazing, and I cannot WAIT to see it. His action sequences have really stood out the last three seasons, and I see this one being no exception.

    11) The shot of Jon and Davos at 1:23 in the brightest conditions we’ve ever seen Jon in, am I imagining it or has Jon picked up a new scar above his eye (above the one he got from Orell’s eagle)?

  107. Steel_Wind: The lone wolf dies but the pack survives has always been interpreted to mean by fans that Sansa is the one who dies – as she has lost her wolf.

    As Bran now has lost his wolf, that idea does not seem so sound!

    That stated, Sansa is more apt to not make it than the other Stark kids simply because, unlike Jon, Arya & Bran, GRRM never intended Sansa to be one of the primary characters for the series. Even now, it is tough to see her being too important at the climax of the books given the lack of any dynamic development for her character and given her character’s essential absence from the last book story.

    However, this also could wind up being a book vs. show difference: Sansa might end up being a primary character on the show while being only a “second tier” main character in the books.

  108. Lord Parramandas: Dee, watch the trailers. They’re really not spoilery and they would just add to the hype.

    Agreed! Trailers never will contain spoilers. After all, the idea of a spoiler is to whet the appetite, not sate it.

  109. Jenny,

    Yes its amazing

    is that scene supposed to be after the ambush and Jon petting him ..
    If so iam happy that both D&D comes back well and safely after the ambush because that shot of Jamie riding Gave me chills ..
    Drogon can sense how dany feels or may feel about him even though dany herself don’t realize it .
    Dany will be surprised by Drogon’s behavior..
  110. Dee Stark,

    No it wasn’t!! They kinda cut that bit out when Ned was having his talk with Arya in Season 1. And I’ve always LOVED that quote!

  111. The dragons return
    The only thing im wait are those big dragond and true Targaryen Queen. Go khaleesi, destroy this lannisters. Tywin and Robert should see this! GoT is not fair.

  112. Tyrion’s wits:
    Ah, that’s a brilliant trailer!

    How much I wish the last dialog be Sansa’s reply to Littlefinger’s scheming.

    And is that another showdown between Bran and the Night’s King through the crows?

    And it would be even better if it were right before she stabbed his scheming self.

  113. Dee Stark,

    I think you should cave right now… you’re missing something really amazing. And yes, watch this one. There’s no way you would rememebr every bit from the trailer, except if you watch it countless times.

  114. Anxiously awaiting the screen shot analysis. (Lawyering will just have to wait until another day).

    Do you think we’ll be able to buy the Season 7 individual posters?

  115. Stewzy: I don’t think Sansa will betray Jon or the Starks. She already screwed over Ned when she was younger and more naive. She’s come a long way since then.

    Yes, Sansa has evolved. However, that might not matter here. After all, Ned was her father. Jon is her bastard half-brother: and this is a world in which bastard siblings are considered “less” than true siblings by many people. Moreover, by right given southern traditions (and Sansa is much more a southerner than a northerner), Sansa should be Lady of Winterfell right now. She is a legitimate child, and legitimate daughters are in successions, whereas bastard sons are not.

    Ultimately, all of these stories revolve around the main characters seeing both reasons to do a thin and reasons to not do a thing. Sansa has reasons to press a claim for Winterfell: she’s Lady Stark’s child and Jon is not, and that means something in their value system. Sansa has reasons to not press this claim: with everything else happening, now might not be the best time! This might be Sansa’s big dilemma for the year.

  116. Grail King: Yes those too, maybe a bit pissed with emotions welling up after meeting Bran; maybe.

    Yes, that’s another possibility. $5 says that the “right” answer will be none of the above, too! 😛

  117. Wimsey,

    Well, Sansa offered Jon lord’s chamber in S6 finale. She could have already pressed her claim at that point.

  118. Lady_Stark1984,

    ahhh okay thank you!!

    Cause I saw some comments like Sansa shouldn’t be saying this because he said it to Arya and I was like in the show he said it to no one! hahaha

  119. Now this was incredible!!!!! Goosebumps all over the place.

    The first trailer didn’t really do anything for me, so I didn’t expect much. But for some reason this one just slapped me across the face. Have to watch it again immediately and then start to read the comments to see if everybody is else is blown away!!!

    Now I’m hype!

    Edit: It’s probably Ramin’s fantastic score that got me all goosebumpy 🙂

  120. Lord Parramandas: Well, Sansa offered Jon lord’s chamber in S6 finale. She could have already pressed her claim at that point.

    True. However, people are not static: what Sansa would do a year later is the important thing this year. It might not be relevant, but it also might be that Sansa expected the Northerners to rally behind her eventually.

  121. Wimsey,

    Or she might have decided to retire and raise dire wolves who are endangered by White Walker habitat destruction. Yeah, that sounds good, too

    Hee, yeah, escape from the world aka jon stewart 🙂

  122. Okay okay this trailer did it for me… Nerdgasm!!!

    The lone wolf dies but the pack survives!

    Awesome!

    Can’t wait for the shot by shot breakdown!

  123. Anyone notice the fleeing horseman up north has an empty scabbard, did he loose his sword?

  124. I’d posted something,then the site froze. Seems to be back up – anyway I think its Meera standing with Bran, and Im so psyched that he gets a wheelchair (hope it has snow wheels). And heck Im just so super psyched about this whole trailer. I have a ton and a half to do today and can’t seem to stop watching it….

  125. OT: but do we think the cold weather would affect the dragons? is that a dumb question?

  126. CANNOT stop watching this. It’s getting me properly emotional – look at how far they’ve all come since S1 <3 <3 <3 THIS SHOW.

  127. Dee Stark:
    So is this trailer better than the first one??

    I havent seen either yet.

    You guys are hyping the shit out of me and I am already hyped soooooooooo much

    This is the BEST trailer ever!

  128. Dee Stark:

    OT: but do we think the cold weather would affect the dragons? is that a dumb question?

    Not dumb at all! I don’t think they’ve stated explicitly, but dragons seem to prefer being warm. Considering that winter’s arrived in Westeros we’ll probably see how they fair. Am guessing that as long as they can keep themselves warm (fire made flesh and all that) they’ll survive.

  129. Stewzy,

    They are trying to fool everyone to think that she will betray Jon, and i really don’t think we will get another Jon’s betrayal again. Sansa will play LF game, just in time to bite him in their own game. It’s perfect actually.

  130. Wimsey,

    I don’t think she expect it during a time of war, maybe after everything is over she might feel that way, of course they all need to survive first.
    She is already the Lady of Winterfell by rights and birth and now that they got WF back she and Arya are Princesses again.
    Sansa’s titles aren’t in danger unless Bran marries as Jon has higher titles.

  131. Grail King:
    Anyone notice the fleeing horseman up north has an empty scabbard, did he loose his sword?

    I hadn’t but I do now. Assuming that is Jon riding it would really, really suck if he loses Longclaw!!

  132. Hell yeah!!!!!!! That music, those words,that last shot!! Chills! WOW!!!

    In that last shot is Jon facing the wights all by himself? They seem quite dressed up & in an impeccable formation for the undead.OR they can be a freshly created wights from the army that went with him.

    And who is the Three eyed raven type figure standing next to Bran?

    Jeez! The hype is real!!!

  133. Ella: Sometimes the hero dies, at least in my books

    Ah, but Jon isn’t a hero: he’s a protagonist! 😀

    Seriously, Jon might die: but if he does, then it will be at the climax of the story. A protagonist sacrificing him/herself after a long evolution setting up that possibility is fine. However, I think that GRRM is setting up something different: living with consequences.

  134. Was anyone else expecting to see a shot of Jared Kushner in this trailer?

    Peace in The North ✌🏽😀

  135. Pigeon,

    To me, it looks like Bran is warging into a raven beyond the Wall. And similar to last season, the Night King immediately senses Bran’s presence.

    Clob:
    It appears the shot of the Greyjoy ships approaching KL is confirmation that Euron does indeed magically build a massive fleet in very little time.:/

    The passage of time is something that has always been quite ambiguous, so to say that he’s built the fleet in “very little time” is a bit of a bold statement to make. For one, Theon and Yara didn’t steal the entire Iron Fleet, only the ‘best ships’. Also, we know he’s actually had quite a bit of time: it must have taken months for Yara and Theon to even get to Meereen, then stay there until Dany’s fleet has been fully assembled ánd make their way back to Dragonstone. That’s quite a time period to build a couple dozen ships (obviously not a thousand, though).

    In general, we must get used to the fact that larger chunks of time will pass between or even within episodes going forward, compared to previous seasons.

  136. Mawk:
    Best thing…

    This isn’t even the final season.

    This makes my day even 10 times more happier. YES.

  137. One possibility for the fleeing man on horseback being Jon is if the Night’s King is focusing the wights on Jon and he is leading the pack away from his band of merry men in an effort to save them. It has been telegraphed that the Night’s King is interested in Jon at Hardhome. Thoughts?

  138. This season is going to be the greatest onscreen fantasy war in film or television history. Unlimited budgets will be coming in clutch.

  139. hands down one of my favorite game of thrones trailers…..
    definitely put the last one to shame, even though they’re both really good.
    Euron With the battle Ax looked pretty Bad ass, can’t wait to see more of him this season ^^
    The battles look breathtaking this year, can’t wait to see them playout on screen.
    “The Lone Wolf dies but the pack survives, so happy that line made it on the show!!!!!
    GAME OF THRONES!!!!!!!!

  140. Almost forgot about Jon snow vs the white walker part 2, I love this show so much <3

  141. Wow..best trailer since ‘Seven Devils’, possibly even better! And lets face it, most trailer for GoT are really well done, but this stands out.

    Beric…The Silence…J.F.Lannister on a field of fire! The Hound in the North! GIANT EFFIN DRAGONS! THAT line, finally! The music! Oh my days HBO, you’ve excelled yourself here.

  142. Long time lurker/heavy breather, first time poster:

    Just speculation with regard to the Sansa/Littlefinger arc (and I don’t think this is spoilery as I’m just piecing previous seasons w/ trailer). The line “A dog will die for you but never lie to you” struck me in that, the presumed speaker of this line, is one of the only characters still living that could inform Sansa of Littlefinger’s treachery with regard to Ned. Is it possible that this line is being delivered to Sansa and/or Arya–the guy seemed to have a soft spot for both.

    To me, while most (if not all) of Littlefinger’s gambits have worked, they’re becoming riskier (for him) too. He’s weaves a complex web of deceit which would seem like he’s bound to overplay soon; especially if his role in Ned’s demise becomes known at Winterfell.

  143. Black Raven:
    Joffery’s Cunt,

    Caw, Caw – Black Raven says its nice to see you back JC –Its been a while

    Thank’s a lot Black Raven! It’s been a while indeed, been too busy to write but I still read every single post here.
    cheers!

  144. Wimsey,

    😱 Well, now you’re just insulting the NK and despite everything I really don’t think he deserves all that.

  145. So, no one’s saying anything of what it looks like The Hound at the Dragon Pit, wearing Brienne’s armor and drawing Needle?

  146. Isabelle: Am guessing that as long as they can keep themselves warm (fire made flesh and all that) they’ll survive.

    heh, a dragon’s problem would be to stop from over-heating! Given how much heat they are generating, a brisk breeze would probably feel nice.

  147. The 1st Trailer left me a bit “cold” (I think it was the music)

    Now! …. I’m EXCITED!!! 😀 😀 😀

    I did think the final shot might be a glimpse of the wall cracking but guess that would be Over-explode!

  148. Dutch Maester,
    It looks like an awful lot of ships in just the shot we get. I’m going to assume he’s going to have a lot more than should be expected. I know we should ignore time passage because it’s not a certainty when not stated. It’s just unreasonable to assume that even a year has passed from the time Yara and Theon departed to Daenerys’ fleet returning – keeping in mind that Euron’s fleet also apparently set sail and made it all the way to KL over that period that cut into his building time. We’ve also discussed ship travel previously. People tend to believe that it took forever to get anywhere on those type of ships when it’s documented that they could average over 1,000 miles every 10 days.
    It’s all just me a bit peeved because I don’t care for Euron so I complain a little about him suddenly having a fleet larger than any in Westeros and men to sail them. I’m not really ripping the show over it.

  149. ramses: Well, now you’re just insulting the NK and despite everything I really don’t think he deserves all that.

    I apologize to White Walkers for my tasteless comparison. And to Nazgul’s, too, just in case they feel I was lumping them in with the White Walkers.

    I am a bad, bad person and will now slam the oven door on my ears…. 🙁

  150. Starkaryen,

    Welcome, lurker! 😉

    Great analysis; I, for one, would not be the least bit surprised if he’s the one to inform one or both Stark sisters of the depths of LF’s deception.

  151. Wimsey: As Bran now has lost his wolf, that idea does not seem so sound!

    However, this also could wind up being a book vs. show difference: Sansa might end up being a primary character on the show while being only a “second tier” main character in the books.

    Sansa has been a primary perspective character in the books. She simply has not been as *beloved* a character in the books as she is on the show. She doesn’t do the same daring things that the other protagonist Stark children do. She is no longer a Warg; she has no sword, no wolf. It’s hard to be a popular bad ass when you spend your time mostly being a victim.

    Nevertheless, the show deliberately portrayed Sansa in a more sympathetic light in Season 1. They understood that Sansa was not a fan favorite of book readers and why that was so; they wanted a different fan base for her TV character. So far, they’ve accomplished that.

    Whatever the case, the show is the show and the books are the books. Even though they are quite different mediums wth different arcs, I do think it likely that Sansa’s ultimate fate on the show will be the same as it is in the books — even if the course she took to get there is WILDLY different.

    So the fact that the show chose to kill off Summer and get rid of Nymeria in episode four is neither here nor there. The books have not – and it’s the books that will determine the ultimate end point of the characters. Accordingly, when we are talking about foreshadowing, it’s the books that foreshadow that ultimate fate.

    And it may be that Sansa’s fate is to forget her loyalty to family. She lost her wolf; it was always intended to signify that she had lost her connection to the North and her family and GRRM has said as much in interviews and during book signings that I have attended (back-in-the-day). That part is not a guess.

    That doesn’t mean she will necessarily die in the show (or the books). And even if that is her fate, it doesn’t mean she will necessarily get there in Season 7 even if it is.

  152. Clob: It’s just unreasonable to assume that even a year has passed from the time Yara and Theon departed to Daenerys fleet returning.

    I would assume that at least a year has passed. Travel in this world would be pretty damned slow.

    Keep in mind also that Euron had the majority of the Iron Born captains supporting him, and thus he has a pretty big fleet already. Even if he doesn’t build his 1000 ships, he should have hundreds of them.

  153. Ivan:
    So, no one’s saying anything of what it looks like The Hound at the Dragon Pit, wearing Brienne’s armor and drawing Needle?

    Ha! It would be hilarious to see Sandor fighting with Needle. I believe it’s just the angle of the shot making his sword look so thin. 🙂

  154. Wimsey,


    “…unlike Jon, Arya & Bran, GRRM never intended Sansa to be one of the primary characters for the series”

    Really? I’ve always figured Sansa would be one of the ones to survive.

    She is one of the Seven (the maid). I’ve always worked on the rule of thumb that there will be 7 clear survivors to mirror the seven dieties of the faith:
    Maid = Sansa
    Crone = Melisandre
    Smith = Gendry
    Warrior = Jon
    Mother = Dany
    Father = Tyrion (maybe Davos though?)
    The Stranger = Arya
  155. Wimsey,

    😆 Best to cover all the bases.

    Unless of course the kush/ivanka wedding ceremony included a dragon glass shard through the heart.

    In which case, no harm no foul!

    Poor, poor Kush 😪

  156. Steel_Wind:

    So the fact that the show chose to kill off Summer and get rid of Nymeria in episode four is neither here nor there.

    The show “[got] rid of Nymeria” at the same time the books did. What’s changed is that the show hasn’t shown that Jon and Arya are also wargs (hence none of the latter’s “wolf dreams”). There’s a distinct possibility that we will see Nymeria again.

  157. Um….Euron is basically a pirate. Pretty sure he could have gotten a number of ships through nefarious means as well.

  158. Steel_Wind: Sansa has been a primary character tin the books.

    Sansa is a protagonist, at least in the first three books, but she’s not at the same level as Jon, Daenerys, Bran, Arya & Tyrion. From the start, GRRM intended those 5 to be the main characters for the whole series. Sansa seemingly was going to be a 2nd tier protagonist, much the way that (say) Theon, Jaime & Cersei are in the books.

    However, Book!Sansa is not a protagonist in the Crows/Dragons story. She gets the start of a story line (she resolves to kill the girl), but nothing after that. All of the other main characters got a similar arch of rising up to some new height but then crashing in some way or another. Show!Sansa did get that arch, and she then was again a major part of the conflicted political choices story last year. We might see Book!Sansa rejoin the story in Winter: the one chapter that GRRM issued suggests a setup for such an arch for Book!Sansa; of course, her Crows chapter setup a storyline that never went anywhere, too!

    At any rate, it is much less obvious that Sansa will be there at the end than it is that, say, Jon will be.

  159. Wimsey,

    The ADwD book!Iron Fleet is only suppose to be 100 ships which would be without Yara/Asha taking a bunch of ’em.

    I can’t buy a year or more of time passage either. The Greyjoys arrived at Meereen after Daenerys beat the Masters. I would think preparations were ongoing when they got there and it certainly didn’t sound like they were going to sit around for months.

  160. Rich Stark,

    Nevermind, just noticed the f***ing army of the undead @ 1:20. OMG!they are everywhere!!
    And @ 0:20 looks like Meera & Bran are about to enter Castle Black!

  161. Pigeon:

    Um… Euron is basically a pirate. Pretty sure he could have gotten a number of ships through nefarious means as well.

    YES!!! I was going to write this, but you beat me to it. 🙂

  162. Now, that is one hell of a trailer !

    1. The music.
    Light of the Seven is, along with The Rains of Castamere and the opening theme, the best tune Ramin Djawadi has ever created. So happy to hear it again !

    2. Bran back at Winterfell (and with a wheelchair)
    Nuff said !
    Oh and Meera better be getting a foot massage at Winterfell. The Starks owe this girl more than anyone else.

    3. Littlefinger speaks.
    I know I am in the minority but boy does that make me happy ! ^^ The content of his line is pretty fantastic too. The emphasis on the mind as the primary place where all battles are fought and won is not only true but also very in keeping with the character (House Baelish’s word : “Knowledge is power”). In a roundabout way, it celebrates the role of those characters who are non-fighters but will still play a crucial role in the Great War, like Bran or Sam.
    For after all, swords are not always indispensable. If you cannot fight them, you can always f*ck them and, more often than not, it works even better 🙂

    4. Jon’s speech.
    I want a great political speech from the White Wolf. He has the intelligence, he has the power… Come on ! He can do it. The whole “we need to work together” spiel is perfectly serviceable but I hope he jazzes it up. I wish for a “We shall fight on the beaches” moment or a “Lift up your hearts” battle cry. Basically, I want him to go full Churchill. Go Jon, go ! (Oh and explain ! Explain to people what you want to do, why you want to do it and how. Again and again and again. It is important. Because the last time Jon did not explain himself correctly, he got stabbed to death)

    5. A glimpse of fierceness
    Be it Arya on her horse or Jaime charging like madman, there is excitement to be had.

    6. The pack survives
    The “lone wolf/pack” analogy is not Ned’s ! Nor is “Winter is coming”. Those are Stark words and imagery that are in no way, shape or form specific to the dead patriarch. Hopefully, the use of the parable by Sansa, arguably the least Ned-like of the remaining Starks, indicates that the children are, at long last, ready to get out of their father’s shadow, to own and reinvent their family’s legacy. It is high time the Starks cut the cord and let daddy go.

    7. Cersei smirking
    I know it shouldn’t but her happiness makes me happy.

    8. Battleships
    Hit. Hit. Sink. Burn. Sink some more.

    9. Hide and seek.
    Not enough Daenerys or Tyrion…

    Wimsey: That stated, Sansa is more apt to not make it than the other Stark kids simply because, unlike Jon, Arya & Bran, GRRM never intended Sansa to be one of the primary characters for the series.Even now, it is tough to see her being too important at the climax of the books

    Oh, she would very probably be useless in the climax. But she might have a few things to do post-climax…

  163. Pigeon: Euron is basically a pirate. Pretty sure he could have gotten a number of ships through nefarious means as well.

    Hey, your “nefarious” is Euron’s “Iron Price.”

    Seriously, you are absolutely right. I see to recall that this comes up in the books.

  164. Wolfish,

    Thanks Wolfish. This has been a pretty great community for the few years that I’ve been checking in. Lots of great posters and insights and (usually) very respectful of one another. Pretty good for the interwebs.

    I’m not sure if it’s GRRM, B&W, or the combo, but I do enjoy how the show seems to try hard to ensure that all of the characters (primary, secondary, tertiary at least) have an arc and a purpose. Now that that story is drawing to a climax/end it’s exciting to see how that all comes together for the bigger characters. I appreciate that they’ve been able to adapt a pretty complex story, keep it efficient, and avoid really egregious plot holes (depending upon how you feel about Dorne…or LSH…or probably lots of other stuff).

  165. Always lurked, never posted until now.
    I liked the first trailer but this one ….Wow. The music just makes everything better. And more Hound is always good.

  166. Pigeon: Yes, and his knees are amazing!

    Can we just agree that Richard Dormer wins the internet today?

    the HYPE the are giving Beric the season = sooo much love for the HBO marketing team….. HUGE richard dormer fan!!

  167. Two things I notice so far: I think Sansa is walking away from SOMEONE who remains by the weirwood tree in the first sequence where she looks upset but determined. We can very easily speculate who that might be, and in what state he is left there, but let’s wait and see. Second, I think the shot of Dany at Dragonstone embattlements where she looks back is one where she is talking to Jon – I hope!

  168. Wimsey,

    Ah, but Jon isn’t a hero: he’s a protagonist! 😀

    Seriously, Jon might die: but if he does, then it will be at the climax of the story. A protagonist sacrificing him/herself after a long evolution setting up that possibility is fine. However, I think that GRRM is setting up something different: living with consequences.

    HMM…i like the mystery behind that. haha

  169. Raul,

    Ahh the hype is real!!

    I have to watch this at least 10 more times now. Damn that flaming sword was cool.

  170. I think HBO posted the trailer rather then the GoT channel so they didn’t have to disable the first trailer. Don’t they usually make the previous trailer private when they release another?

  171. Pigeon:
    Um….Euron is basically a pirate. Pretty sure he could have gotten a number of ships through nefarious means as well.

    That will be enough of your common sense!! 😛
    Like I said, I’m just not a Euron fan and George introducing some big bad guy late in the story with a magic horn. He’s pretty inefficient outside of pirate stuff so far in the books though so I’m having a hard time accepting him as this master warmonger.

  172. lady chanca,
    In regards to your first point, I had the same thought. And she looks sad so the interaction leading to a certain outcome should be interesting…
    It has been in the works since the Ghost of High Heart dreamt a little dream of giants and castles built of snow 😉

  173. Clob,

    Yes, but in the books, at least we have Damphairs chilling repressed memories to instill some fear and mystery into Euron.
    The show, we just have goofy dialogues of big cocks

  174. Just popping in to say I’m not watching as usual. I already inspired Dee to stop watching the trailers and wish many of you would do the same.

  175. Pigeon:

    Can we just agree that Richard Dormer wins the internet today?

    I’ll agree with that but Jaime on horseback with the fire behind him is a close second.

    I have to admit that I got a bit teary upon seeing Bran in a wheelchair by the weirwood. The wolves have finally returned home.

  176. Wimsey:

    However, I think that GRRM is setting up something different: living with consequences.

    I agree. Jon would sacrifice himself to save the world, but, as it’s been done so many times, I think GRRM will choose differently. I seem to recall GRRM saying something about wanting to see Aragorn deal with taxes and issues in the realm, the standard headaches of ruling. I think Jon will get that as well as having to accept everything he did, both good and bad, and mourn for all of those who were lost and, as he would likely see it, whom he was unable to save. Again, GRRM loves the ending of Return of the King, the scouring of the Shire, how some can heal but things can ‘t be the same. And then there’s poor Frodo, never to recover.

  177. What a great trailer. One thing I have not seen mentioned here is Greyworm ready to enter a cave below

    Casterly Rock

    ?

    The lone wolf speech has me again very worried for Arya, but as pointed out above by many there could be many different possibilities for its meaning.

  178. ok first thoughts…
    BRAN HAS A WHEELCHAIR.. IN WINTERFELL!!!

    love Jons new dialogue..and if he his speaking those lines to who i WANT him to be during the scene i hope it is I am gonna be a big ball of mush

    I love Beric.. if he goes down it better be in flames of glory

  179. My guess is the person with Bran is Dolorous Edd, friend and protector of underdogs, who took it upon himself to order the wheelchair from Williams-Sonoma. You da man, Edd!

  180. Raoul_Duke,

    In the first trailer (I’m spoiler-coding because Dee Stark hasn’t watched either one yet),

    the Unsullied are clearly seen at Casterly Rock, with Greyworm killing a Lannister soldier. And of course, you will recall that Tywin had placed Tyrion in charge of all the drains and sewers at CR way back when, as a form of punishment. Predictably, Tyrion excelled in his duties (as he usually does); I can imagine he has spent much of his shipboard time drawing a detailed map of the, um, bowels of his ancestral home. 🙂
  181. Rich Stark:
    Rich Stark,

    Nevermind, just noticed the f***ing army of the undead @ 1:20. OMG!they are everywhere!!

    YES! I’ve been reading through all the comments and couldn’t believe I was almost to the end and no one had commented on this yet. There are wights all over the hills/ mountains behind Jon and Co. Holy Schnikey!

    Also, there hasn’t been enough discussion on Jon fighting a WW, not a wight, but, yes, a WW! I guess because he’s killed one already, it’s not a big enough deal (?). And, unless someone has just recently mentioned it, no one has mentioned that Tormund is swiping at someone on horseback. Unless I’m forgetting something, we have never seen a wight on horseback, so that’s probably a WW. I worry for Tormund unless he’s obtained some Dragon Glass.

  182. Wimsey:

    heh, a dragon’s problem would be to stop from over-heating! Given how much heat they are generating, a brisk breeze would probably feel nice.

    Every other character: checking for frostbite
    Dragons: flopping happily in giant ice bath

  183. Wimsey:
    Moreover, by right given southern traditions (and Sansa is much more a southerner than a northerner), Sansa should be Lady of Winterfell right now.She is a legitimate child, and legitimate daughters are in successions, whereas bastard sons are not.

    Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell, according to the show. But as far as succession goes, she should be the top dog by Northern traditions too (until Bran come back; Bran should properly have both Jon and Sansa’s current titles); there is no difference in how the North and southern kingdoms treat bastardy.

    Sansa is not more a southerner than a northerner, either. That’s reductive silliness based on the idea that there’s a particular way to be either, and it’s especially nonsensical on the show given that, in Season 6, it was Sansa arguing for Northern exceptionalism against Davos (and the show’s) stance that Northerners are the same as everybody else.

    Wimsey:
    However, Book!Sansa is not a protagonist in the Crows/Dragons story.She gets the start of a story line (she resolves to kill the girl), but nothing after that.All of the other main characters got a similar arch of rising up to some new height but then crashing in some way or another.Show!Sansa did get that arch, and she then was again a major part of the conflicted political choices story last year.We might see Book!Sansa rejoin the story in Winter: the one chapter that GRRM issued suggests a setup for such an arch for Book!Sansa; of course, her Crows chapter setup a storyline that never went anywhere, too!

    How did Bran rise up and then crash in ADWD?

    Sansa absolutely does have a storyline in AFFC. It’s one of the more slender ones, while waiting for Act 2 to begin, but it’s there, and it’s very deliberately full of parallels to Arya’s (as their storylines often are).

  184. Chreechree,
    Yeah, it appears as if we’re going to get a very good look at the ‘magnitude’ of the NK’s army. We got that departing shot at Hardhome but it was tough to really see scale. I don’t think those guys expected to run into ALL of them.

  185. Jenny,

    Thanks, I slowed the frame down and froze it on my tv, the hilt looks like Longclaw from what can be seen of it.

  186. Clob,

    Missandei and Greyworm
    Catspaw Assassin,

    Does not look like Edd. He looks like an older man with with shorter hear and going bald.

    Besides the only weirwood tree we know of near Castle Black is north of the Wall, a place I don’t think many brothers will be visiting knowing what’s coming.

  187. What a trailer! What a day to have posting issues. I’ve tried 6 posts and succeeded twice. Sheesh. Sue, Luka–any ideas?
    [At least it worked this time]

    Anyway, I think as usual Wimsey caught the gist–this season is about picking your battles and and making the Starkest of choices. Some are intensely Black and White. These are all speculation (I removed names because it seemed a bit spoilery):
    Do you go it alone or stick with your family? Do you ignore your morals to back a compromised winner? Do you opt for love or duty? Do you risk your own life for your fellow humans? Do you abandon your life-plan to meet the emergency? Do you accept someone you detest because they can help you win? Do you save your life by betraying the only person who believes in you? Do you abandon–or kill–the one you love and love the one you should? Do you flee to safety though the flight may destroy that safety for others? Choices, choices. All the primary and secondary characters currently left standing will be faced with the thorniest of dilemmas, some with several dilemmas, and emerge from the crucible of Season 7 profoundly changed. Hopefully for the better.

  188. That’s entertainment!

    D&D, you have my permission to take until 2019 to deliver season 8, really, take all the time you need.

    Was Bran controlling a pack of crows? LOL.

    Nice to see that us “spoiled ones” can maybe look forward to a few surprises? I definitely saw some stuff in there that was not in ANY of the plot leaks!

    Nice for them to conclude the trailer with a direct quote from ASOIAF; maybe a not so subtle message to the naysayers that “Yep, we’re still adapting a Song of Ice and Fire you guys!” Or at least, they’re adapting what George has given them thus far, as best they can…

  189. Well they just gave away Littlefingers fate with the bookend voice overs. Fight your battles in your head then make your choice – to remain with the pack and not to be a lone wolf.

  190. George posted the trailer in his Not a Blog. (He didn’t post the first one)

    He must have like this one better!

  191. This trailer was incredible, I think I liked it a lot better than the first one. It felt more desperate and personal.

  192. Stark Raven' Rad: Anyway, I think as usual Wimsey caught the gist–this season is about picking your battles and and making the Starkest of choices.

    Oh, snap! Damn, what I would give to go back in time 4 hours and use that phrase myself.

    I’m going to go put on a cap and then tip it to you.

  193. selena,

    Oh yeah, everything needs to be him and Dany. These are two different dialogs and it seems more as a speech to northern lords and maybe dragonpit?

    Wimsey,

    Jon is a hero. Eager hero, reluctant ruler and leader.

  194. Clob,
    Yes, the NK army has to be vast or Dany’s dragons would quickly burn it up with a couple of fire passes. The struggle has to be harder than that!

  195. Summer,

    Thoros of Myr is probably with him and remember Thoros is a Red Priest like Melisandre, so if Thoros can bring back Beric multiple times from the dead, lighting up Beric’s sword with fire isn’t that big of a deal

  196. dragonbringer,

    Maester Wolkan or what’s his name, the Maester Ramsay threatened to kill.

    Lannisters vs Dothraki is a pointless affair in the wake of white walkers invasion. At least battle for Winterfell put them in better position to fight white walkers. Dany will for sure beat them and it really don’t achieve much. It will look cool, same as that expedition butn still risky and a bit pointless.

    Jon seems to be speaking to northern lords at that big meeting and at dragonpit – two speeches cut and put int one.

  197. Sansa’s bit at the end sounds very emotional – her voice seems husky/breaking up, as if fighting back tears. Sounds like it could be a Stark deathbed speech (not necessarily her own), which makes me nervous.

    If Ned didn’t deliver the “lone wolf dies but the pack survives” lines in the show, is it possible that Old Nan did, to Bran? I could swear I remember hearing it, and not just on the audiobooks.

    In any case, I don’t get the quibble that Ned said it to Arya, not Sansa, in the books. That sort of platitude is standard Stark family lore. All the kids probably heard it cited many times over.

  198. one of Euron’s mutes,

    To get eaten or burned? 🙂

    Simon,

    They’re talking about the Starks of course! They’re all coming back together again.

    GhostCR,

    Every castle in the north has a godswood with a weirwood. I’m sure it’s Winterfell though if it’s in the north.

  199. Firannion,

    No the whole idea of finding your pack specifically relates to Arya’s storyline and it’s what Ned tells HER. That’s her entire quest when she’s travelling through war torn Riverlands, while she’s held captive at Harrenhal, and while she’s in Braavos (she tries to get to Robb and her mother and she tries to get to Jon when she gets to the ship at the end of season 4). She’s always trying to get to her family (her pack). Not hiding because of regicide and learning to “play the game”, or going on a quest to hone her magic powers. It’s always getting to the pack.

    It’s practically the foundation of her storyline. Can she get to her pack? Can she leave behind Arya Stark and forget her pack? If that crucial part of her story is removed and handed out to another character, why bother casting Arya then? She’s not some killing machine or executioner for others. She thinks about Ned’s words to her in almost every book.

    “That was the best part, the dreaming. She dreamed of wolves most every night. A great pack of wolves, with her at the head. She was bigger than any of them, stronger, swifter, faster. She could outrun horses and outfight lions. When she bared her teeth even men would run from her, her belly was never empty long, and her fur kept her warm even when the wind was blowing cold. And her brothers and sisters were with her, many and more of them, fierce and terrible and hers. They would never leave her.”

    “”Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. “

    For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya’s skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father’s voice. “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives,” he said.

    “But there is no pack,” she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. “I’m not even me now, I’m Nan.”

    A long time ago, she remembered her father saying that when the cold winds blow the lone wolf dies and the pack survives. He had it all backwards. Arya, the lone wolf, still lived, but the wolves of the pack had been taken and slain and skinned.

    There is no place here for Arya of House Stark, she was thinking. Arya’s place was Winterfell, only Winterfell was gone. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. She had no pack, though. They had killed her pack, Ser Ilyn and Ser Meryn and the queen, and when she tried to make a new one all of them ran off, Hot Pie and Gendry and Yoren and Lommy Greenhands, even Harwin, who had been her father’s man.

    It’s a crucial aspect of her character. It would be like removing Bran’s powers and giving them to someone else, or removing Jon’s efforts to unite houses against the WW and handing them over to another character, or removing the LF/Sansa mentoring and deciding he’s going to teach idk Jon how to play the game instead.

  200. Flayed Potatoes,

    Well-documented, but I’m still going to have to disagree, with respect. Yes, we see that pack philosophy expressed primarily through Arya’s PoV, and clearly it’s a powerful motivator for her. But I don’t think that necessarily implies that it’s hers alone. I see it as an intrinsic part of the tradition of being the Great House symbolized by direwolves.

    The Stark family has ruled the North for unbroken millennia because they internalized this lesson well during the hardest of Winters. It’s a metaphor way bigger than one little girl, however important a protagonist she may be. And to this viewer, seeing the other members of her scattered family remember their pack tradition and stand united will seem very fitting – not a diminution of Arya as a unique character at all. Though I do suspect that she will be the one to lead a pack in the most literal sense before the end!

  201. Flayed Potatoes,
    Your demonstration is undeniably brilliant however I cannot quite agree with its conclusion for I believe that the “pack” theme is a Stark theme* (very much like “Winter is coming”) and all the Stark children go through their own variation of it.

    Jon has been jumping “packs” since the beginning. He left his family to join a brotherhood, then integrated the Wildlings only to switch back to the Night’s Watch which, in the books, he ultimately wanted to abandon to go to Winterfell on a rescue mission, thereby choosing to return to his original “pack”, aka the Starks (on the show, the reconnection with the Stark pack occurred when Sansa arrived at Castle Black).

    Bran was originally paired with Rickon, the two wolf pups looking out for each other. After their separation, the greenseer found a new clan to belong to though his association with the Reeds and his kinship with the Three-Eyed Crow. However, he is perfectly aware that he will have to go back to his blood “pack” one day or another.

    Arya and Sansa are the two lone wolves of the family. Both deprived of their identity by the use of pseudonyms (“a girl”, Mercy, Alaine, etc.), both surrounded by not entirely trustworthy people who teach them survival skills, both disconnected from their roots, both longing for home.

    You are absolutely right to assert that Arya uses the word “pack” much more often than all of her siblings put together. Nevertheless, thematically speaking, her trajectory is very much in keeping with that of the other Stark kids. “Losing oneself” either to another identity or to a another pack, changing in the process and, ultimately, retriving and reinventing their own “Starkness”, a sense of self and of belonging, that goes beyond merely aping whatever Ned said they had to do or be.

    Funnily enough, they all have to do what Ned did after Robert’s Rebellion. With all his relatives either dead or at the Wall, Ned was the last Direwolf (Robb and Jon were only babies). As such, he had to single-handedly recreate a Stark mythos to pass down to his children. Since he had spent most of his formative years at the Eyrie, the mythos he came up with was more inspired by Jon Arryn’s value system than by Rickard Stark’s.

    Ned wrote his own definition of being a Stark and of a pack; and now, each of his children have to carve out theirs.

    * Even that could be somewhat disputed considering the Tullys’ words clearly highlight the importance of family, of the collective. In that sense, one could say the Tullys place supreme value on their “pack” too. Or, more appropriately, their “hover” (thank you Google for allowing me to pretend I knew what the collective noun for trouts was ! ^^)

  202. I’m nitpicking here however, 65% is old rehashed stuff that we’ve already seen…

    On to the actual new stuff. Pretty friggin good! Dany looks soooo awesome *howls like a champ in the full moon* and DROGON is going to kick some arse!!! BERRIC still with his flaming sword. He is the chosen. Fingers crossed it’s Mr Dull Jon Snow riding off to die for real this time 🙂

  203. ACME,

    Yes but that specific line is in Arya’s story and nobody else’s. She always remembers those words and they are what keep her going. They define Arya’s journey.

    Sansa doesn’t have much to do with the pack mentality. She was ok with letting the pack get killed by Ramsay just so she can get Winterfell. She didn’t tell her pack about the army she had from LF. She was ok telling LF not to take her out of KL to her pack because she wanted to marry Loras. She was never particularly close to her siblings the way… idk Jon and Arya were, or Jon and Robb. Even Bran has more of a relationship with Robb than she does.

    Arya should be the one saying that line to Sansa, especially if Sansa is letting LF whisper in her ear. Of course all the Starks want to be together again, but that specific reference to the pack echoes in Arya’s storyline and nobody else’s. It’s one of the most iconic lines in the series that defines Arya’s journey. It’s like, what if the show took a Sansa defining line “My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel” (for example) and gave it to Dany or Arya or someone else because it sounds badass? Just no. It’s bad enough that the show took storylines from other characters and awkwardly inserted Sansa in them. Is it really necessary to take from Arya (a Big 5 character at that) who is right there?

  204. Flayed Potatoes: Arya should be the one saying that line to Sansa,

    How do we know that she didn’t already, by the time Sansa repeats it? Would it be such a terrible thing if Sansa were able to learn from her siblings, to reconnect with the pack mentality?

    I think your sense of outrage over this is at best premature.

  205. Firannion,

    Then why isn’t Arya the one saying it in the trailer? It would certainly add to the mystery. Why is she saying this? Who is she saying it to? What’s the context?

    The show is teasing Sansa going against her brother (Starkbowl) and by having her say this line they’re basically flat out telling you what she’s going to do in the end. Which tells me Arya isn’t saying it first and that she’s not saying it at all.

    Nah I don’t think it’s premature.

  206. Wimsey,

    The tradition is the same in all of Westeros concerning true born vs bastards.
    Flayed Potatoes,

    The book purest in me agrees with you. 🙂 Although, I’m just happy to hear it in the show.

  207. Flayed Potatoes,
    I understand what you mean but I believe that the “betrayal / abandonment of the pack” is a constitutive part of the overall story arc for all the Stark children, not just Sansa (who, I would argue, was not “ok” with Rickon dying but had just accepted that he was already as good as dead)

    Jon “betrayed” his original pack by joining another, the Night’s Watch, which he then “betrayed” too by falling in love with Ygritte (whom he kind of betrayed as well ^^) and allowing the Free Folk south of the Wall.
    Arya “betrayed” the pack by leaving the Red Keep on her own, without her sister. And after abandoning the Hound to his fate, instead of attempting to reach Castle Black to reunite with her fellow Direwolf Jon, she decided to follow her own destiny and sail to Braavos to join the Faceless Men.
    As for Bran, he chose not to cry out for Jon so as to stay with the Reeds and continue on his tree-hugging path.
    One can obviously add Robb, Ned and Lyanna to the list of “traitors” (^^) but they are dead so it is a bit of a moot point.

    You are entirely right to say that the lone wolf/pack line appears solely in an Arya chapter but it is part of the Stark lore, as Firannion said. I think it is very much a “one size fits all” parable. So as long as it is thematically coherent, I do not have a problem with the line being shifted about. Arya, Sansa, Jon or Bran; in my opinion, anyone of them could have said it because it fits them all.
    The very same logic applies to the Sansa quote. I would have no problem with another character using it, as long as it suited their narrative arc. As a matter of fact, the two examples you gave (Arya and Daenerys) would go very well with that quote ! So would have a young Cersei or a young Melisandre. Seven hells, even Olenna could have a go at it 😉

    I understand your frustration completely. To you, Sansa using those lines takes something away from Arya and you have every reason to find it infuriating. My perception is entirely different though… For my money, it does not deprive Arya of anything. It does not make her any less interesting or unique.
    The “lone wolf/pack” theme is not exclusively hers. It is the Starks’. What is hers and hers alone is her variation, her treatment of that theme and that cannot be taken away. In any way, shape of form.

  208. Flayed Potatoes:
    Firannion,

    No the whole idea of finding your pack specifically relates to Arya’s storyline and it’s what Ned tells HER. That’s her entire quest when she’s travelling through war torn Riverlands, while she’s held captive at Harrenhal, and while she’s in Braavos (she tries to get to Robb and her mother and she tries to get to Jon when she gets to the ship at the end of season 4). She’s always trying to get to her family (her pack). Not hiding because of regicide and learning to “play the game”, or going on a quest to hone her magic powers. It’s always getting to the pack.

    It’s practically the foundation of her storyline. Can she get to her pack? Can she leave behind Arya Stark and forget her pack? If that crucial part of her story is removed and handed out to another character, why bother casting Arya then? She’s not some killing machine or executioner for others. She thinks about Ned’s words to her in almost every book.

    It’s a crucial aspect of her character. It would be like removing Bran’s powers and giving them to someone else, or removing Jon’s efforts to unite houses against the WW and handing them over to another character, or removing the LF/Sansa mentoring and deciding he’s going to teach idk Jon how to play the game instead.

    I don’t mind that line being given to Sansa. That should be the culmination of her arc. She has been shitting on her family since book one and season one and her story should more or less end with her realizing the importance of family.

    But if D and D end up sidelining Bran and Arya and make the Winterfell plot all about Sansa, I am going to be pissed.

  209. ACME:
    Flayed Potatoes,
    Jon “betrayed” his original pack by joining another, the Night’s Watch, which he then “betrayed” too by falling in love with Ygritte (whom he kind of betrayed as well ^^) and allowing the Free Folk south of the Wall.
    Arya “betrayed” the pack by leaving the Red Keep on her own, without her sister. And after abandoning the Hound to his fate, instead of attempting to reach Castle Black to reunite with her fellow Direwolf Jon, she decided to follow her own destiny and sail to Braavos to join the Faceless Men.
    As for Bran, he chose not to cry out for Jon so as to stay with the Reeds and continue on his tree-hugging path.

    Jon didn’t betray his pack by joining the NW. He joined them because Cat didn’t want him to stay in Winterfell and he didn’t have any options. He was pushed out of the pack. He fell in love with Ygritte but still chose his pack (NW brothers over her). He let the Free Folk through the Wall, but it wasn’t out of the goodness of his heart. It was to stop the NK from increasing his army (some pack members might see it as a betrayal, but there were others who supported Jon). You can argue that the NW is a pack and the Stark is another pack, and Jon makes choices between packs (Robb vs NW, Arya vs NW in the books)… but it’s never a choice between a pack and what benefits only Jon.

    Arya didn’t betray her pack by living the Red Keep on her own. She was being hunted down by the Lannisters. It would have been impossible for her to retrieve Sansa under those conditions (in the books Sansa sells out the pack to Cersei by ratting out Ned). Arya attempted to reunite with Jon (she never abandoned the pack)… rewatch the scene with the boat captain in season 4 episode 10; she asks him if he’s going to the Wall because that’s where she wants to go and has no option but to go to Braavos. In Braavos she wants to train so she can kill the ones who hurt the pack. She abandons the Hound because SHE wants to go to the pack. The Hound is very much a lone wolf.

    Bran cried out for Jon multiple times, but Jojen stopped him. He begrudgingly went.

  210. SerNoName,

    Ok then they should give her a different line. Like the porcelain, ivory and steel line. Or have her say some other Ned-ism her father told her. Or give her a Catelyn nugget, since the show is clearly pushing for Sansa-Cat parallels. There’s a trend that’s been established where storylines from other characters are given to Sansa or she’s awkwardly being inserted into them. I’d like to not see Arya suffer from this after everything that’s happened.

    But if D and D end up sidelining Bran and Arya and make the Winterfell plot all about Sansa, I am going to be pissed.

    In the words of Scar from The Lion King…. “be prepared”. LF got a nice big monologue in the trailer too. That should tell you how the story is going.

  211. Geralt of Rivia: Jon is a hero. Eager hero, reluctant ruler and leader.

    Modern literature never uses heroes. Characters like Jon might be “heroic” in one sense or another, but that is very different.

  212. Firannion: If Ned didn’t deliver the “lone wolf dies but the pack survives” lines in the show, is it possible that Old Nan did, to Bran?

    Regardless, it is the sort of thing that people would repeat.

    WallyFrench: The tradition is the same in all of Westeros concerning true born vs bastards.

    My understanding is that the northerners are less fussed about it than are the southerners. I seem to recall that GRRM is mimicking the differences between the Celtic cultures and the Saxon & Norman cultures in England, where the Celts (Welsh, Picts, Cornish, Scots) were a little less hung up on legitimacy than were the Normans and Saxons. This is not to say that legitimacy was not important to (say) the Welsh: being a bastard was just less of a stigma than it was to the Normans. (Religion had a huge role in this: the brand of Christianity espoused by the Normans was very similar to the Church of the Seven, whereas Celtic Christianity was much more laid back.)

  213. Flayed Potatoes,
    I cannot say I agree unfortunately.

    Jon was not pushed out of Winterfell. Catelyn was not a Disney evil stepmother who would abuse and mistreat him; she simply ignored him and wished he could be somewhere else. But Ned was the master of Winterfell and he wanted Jon around, like all the Stark children (Sansa excepted). Jon chose to join the Night’s Watch mostly because he had a romantic (and entirely false) image of it. Joining the Night’s Watch means renouncing one’s birth family and replacing it with the brotherhood.
    He therefore abandoned the Stark pack to integrate another.

    Even Jon knows that his relationship with Ygritte betrayed the Night’s Watch vows. Sam, being the good friend he is, tried to blur the lines a bit, focusing on the letter of the law instead of its spirit, to make his pal feel better but Jon is no fool. He knows what he did 😉

    Allowing the Wildlings south of the Wall was perceived as a betrayal by most of the Crows. The fact that it was strategically sound is, in this case, irrelevant for Jon failed to convince his Brothers. The way they reacted after his assassination was a clear indication of it : had they so wished, they could have overtaken the mutineers in under three minutes but ultimately, the overwhelming majority of them sided with Thorne, showing something akin to relief in doing so. Jon knew it; it was the reason for his departure. He could no longer work alongside people who had approved of his murder. In the books, the same logic applies to Jon’s decision to abandon his position to attack the Boltons at Winterfell.

    Arya could have gone directly to the Wall. She did not need to take that boat. She could have taken another that did sail to the Wall. Or she could have walked there. Or stolen a horse. She was at a crossroads and she chose to go to Braavos because training with the Faceless Men was more important to her than reuniting with Jon at that moment.

    Jojen did not twist Bran’s arm. His sole argument was that Jon would not let his baby brother go after their reunion. Therefore, Bran was presented with a fairly simple choice : reunite with Jon and stay with him or follow the Reeds and learn more about the Three-Eyed Crow. And Bran chose; he chose his own destiny, his own path over his birth pack which he betrayed.

    I realise that “betrayal” is a loaded term with strong negative connotations. However, it is not in that manner that I use it. To me, in this context, “betraying” one’s pack means simply choosing something else than the pack, for whatever reason. Wanting to be with other people, at the exclusion of the pack. Preferring door number 2, so to speak. And all the Stark children made that choice at one point or another, each in his or her own way.

    The parable is very clear : it states that being with one’s pack is paramount, the sole key to survival. It does not say that the lone wolf can make it, as long as s/he thinks a lot about his/her pack or has the best of intentions. It is a pretty binary proposition.

  214. Wimsey:
    My understanding is that the northerners are less fussed about it than are the southerners.

    No, no basis for that at all.

    Indeed, were that the case, Jon’s story would be very different. There are actually far more canon examples of important, prominent bastard children in the southern kingdoms.

  215. ACME:
    Flayed Potatoes,

    Jon was not pushed out of Winterfell. Catelyn was not a Disney evil stepmother who would abuse and mistreat him;

    Wrong. Catelyn explicitly states in AGoT that she would not have Jon in Winterfell once Ned leaves. Ned then agrees to Jon taking the black because he does not want to take Jon south.

    Jon did want to join the NW because he thought that as a bastard that was the only place to rise up through merit. Ned thought that Jon was too young to make that decision and wanted Jon to stay in Winterfell – Catelyn refused to allow that.

    Also joining the NW is not abandoning the Starks. The NW is basically Stark heritage. As Ned stated, the Starks have manned the walls since it was build. Being in the NW is the very essence of being a Stark.

  216. Starkaryen,

    h

    e line “A dog will die for you but never lie to you” struck me in that, the presumed speaker of this line, is one of the only characters still living that could inform Sansa of Littlefinger’s treachery with regard to Ned. Is it possible that this line is being delivered to Sansa and/or Arya–the guy seemed to have a soft spot for both.

    I thought the same. It would make sense; He was brought back for a reason, its said, getting Sansa to kill the traitor would be just the thing .

  217. ACME,

    Catelyn explicitly told Ned that Jon could not continue to stay in Winterfell once he left for KL. That’s the definition of being pushed out.

  218. Flayed Potatoes,

    Good job collecting all those quotes (and good job reminding me why I loved the books so much – yes he was badly in need of a good editor, but GMMRs writing is so superb that I will forgive much as long as he gives me more of that to read).

    I do agree with you about Arya and her wolves. I still am a bit miffed that D&D chose not to show that , both for Arya and Jon. Tho I think I understood why they didn’t include that, I think it was an important part of who they are and needed to be there.

  219. I’m thinking they are keeping Arya stuff purposefully vague.
    Sansa’s voice over has almost a sarcastic feel to it. I picture her talking to Arya when she says it.

  220. Oh crap they are alluding to Jon being the lone wolf that dies. When Sansa recites that, it shows him there alone in the icy north.

    This trailer looks like for a movie. An epic one at that. This season should rock!

  221. Wolfish,

    But nobody should even click on a trailer thread if they don’t want to be spoiled with conversation about the trailer lol

  222. ACME,

    Now ACME you know that’s a lie:

    Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. “Jon must go,” she said now.

    “He and Robb are close,” Ned said. “I had hoped …”

    “He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

  223. SerNoName,

    Exactly! And Luwin sided with Cat and pushed for the NW in the book.

    “The Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years and you are a Stark.” – Ned

    Doesn’t get more wolf than that.

    ash,

    I’m willing to forgive him most of his food descriptions because he gave me this Arya passage:


    Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.

    Polliver had stolen the sword from her when the Mountain’s men took her captive, but when she and the Hound walked into the inn at the crossroads, there it was. The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father’s gods, the old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can’t have this.

    She padded up the steps as naked as her name day, clutching Needle. Halfway up, one of the stones rocked beneath her feet. Arya knelt and dug around its edges with her fingers. It would not move at first, but she persisted, picking at the crumbling mortar with her nails. Finally, the stone shifted. She grunted and got both hands in and pulled. A crack opened before her.

    “You’ll be safe here,” she told Needle. “No one will know where you are but me.” She pushed the sword and sheath behind the step, then shoved the stone back into place, so it looked like all the other stones. As she climbed back to the temple, she counted steps, so she would know where to find the sword again. One day she might have need of it. “One day,” she whispered to herself.

    I tear up whenever I read this. Poor baby 🙁

  224. I think Sansa talking about lone wolf is she thinking about herself when LF tries to pit her against her own siblings. I think she remembers her father and decides that she is not going to be a lone wolf. In Last year’s trailer as well they had Tormund’s words for Mance sound like they are for Jon by showing Jon’s corpse. ” I thought he was the man to lead us through great night”

  225. Lmao I can’t believe people are already salty over Sansa uttering the “Lone Wolf” line.

    The line is clearly some kind of northern saying like “Winter is coming” or “The North Remembers”. Besides, it has a direct tie to Sansa’s story, since Ned has said it to Arya to disencourage her from fighting her sister.

    But since according to the fandom Sansa “is not a true Stark”, “betrayed her family” or “is a southenrer and not a northern” or other senseless bullshit she shouldn’t say it.

    Lmfao, how sad and ridiculous.

  226. Wimsey,

    Nope. 🙂 The only part of Westeros where there isn’t as much of a stigma with being a bastard is Dorne. Even, in Dorne true born children come first though. The stigma being pervasive throughout Westeros is why they have separate names for bastards: Snow, Stone, Sand, etc. Or why they made a big deal early on about “bastard blood will tell”.

    But, the stigma remains and was a big part of Jon’s story during the first couple seasons. It’s why I was bothered when every lord in the north made Jon “King of the North” while still being a Snow. That last name is a scarlet letter in Westeros…he should have been legitimized first. No way they go for a Snow when there’s a true Stark in the room.

  227. SerNoName,
    ghost of winterfell,
    Flayed Potatoes,
    I am going to go for a group answer ^^

    To be fair to me (I am always very fair to myself !), I did mention that Catelyn wished Jon were somewhere else. She always had, since day one. She never pretended that she did not like Jon and did not want him around. Ned knew she did not like him, all the children knew it too and so did Jon himself. And yet for 15 years (17 on the show), he stayed. Because Ned and the rest of the family wanted him to.

    The patriach’s departure to King’s Landing did not have to lead to Jon joining the Night’s Watch. Ned could have said “no”, like he did for 15-17 years, and Robb, the acting lord of Winterfell in his absence, would have supported him. Had Jon clearly indicated he wanted to stay home, are we supposed to believe Catelyn would have bypassed her husband and eldest son, packed Jon’s bags for him and taken him to the Wall anyway ? I am sorry to say this is not a scenario I find believable.

    Catelyn’s word was not and had never been the be-all-and-end-al in the Stark household. Had she held all the cards, Jon would never have spent a single day at Winterfell, instead being raised in a near-ish village. Out of sight, out of mind.
    All the characters had a say in the matter of Jon taking the black, including Jon himself.

    I really feel like it is the word “betrayal” that appears to cause something of a stir. In this instance, betrayal does not have any nefarious connotation; it simply means leaving one’s pack.
    The Night’s Watch is a pack that people join at the exclusion of their birth pack (hence the oath that emphasises that any recruit renounce any birthright or heritage he might have). It is a brotherhood and its members are one another’s brothers, in the strongest sense of the term. They become one one another’s relatives. They fight and die for one another and are prohibited from doing the same for their blood family : that is why Jon could not fight alongside Robb during the War of the Five Kings and why, in the books, his decision to attack the Boltons at Winterfell for family reason was a betrayal of the Night’s Watch.

    Both symbolically and practically, Jon joining the Night’s Watch meant renouncing the Starks. It is not bad; it is just what it is. ^^

  228. Luka Nieto,

    Well, I watched it.

    I may have fainted a few times yesterday. I was not expecting ANYYYYYYYYYYYY of that.

    OHHHHHHHH MYYYYYYYYYYYYY GODDDDDDDDDDDDD

  229. That last line in the trailer gives me shivers…. wow… I really wonder whats happening in the scene when that is said. And I am scared.

    Also, so nice to be a non-book reader who doesn’t care that it isn’t Arya who says it?! lol wtf

  230. ygritte,

    Listen don’t worry about Jon dying until 8.06,okay if we push it 8.05.I assure you it ain’t happening before that.And that quote has nothing to do with Jon lol.

  231. Dee Stark,

    Well I don’t know when it is said in the season or to who Sansa says it but I don’t think it’s negative.Basically it’s a saying in the north and a teaching that Ned would tell his children.It means you need to band together,family it’s the most important thing and if you are alone you are screwed.

  232. ACME:
    SerNoName,
    ghost of winterfell,
    Flayed Potatoes,
    I am going to go for a group answer ^^

    The patriach’s departure to King’s Landing did not have to lead to Jon joining the Night’s Watch. Ned could have said “no”, like he did for 15-17 years, and Robb, the acting lord of Winterfell in his absence, would have supported him. Had Jon clearly indicated he wanted to stay home, are we supposed to believe Catelyn would have bypassed her husband and eldest son, packed Jon’s bags for him and taken him to the Wall anyway ? I am sorry to say this is not a scenario I find believable.

    Catelyn’s word was not and had never been the be-all-and-end-al in the Stark household. Had she held all the cards, Jon would never have spent a single day at Winterfell, instead being raised in a near-ish village. Out of sight, out of mind.
    All the characters had a say in the matter of Jon taking the black, including Jon himself.

    True, Catelyn could not have forced Jon to pack up and go to the Wall if he indicated he did not want to. And Jon himself showed eagerness to join the Night’s Watch. But that was because he felt there was no other place for a bastard like him in that world. Besides, more importantly, he had absolutely no idea what the real state of the Night’s Watch was. This was not his fault, he was a 14 year old boy at the time, it was the duty of the adults (Ned and Maester Luwin) to explain the reality of the situation to him before he took such a life-altering decision. As parent/ teacher, they owed him the truth before they sent him off to the Wall and they failed him in that regard. They chose not to do so because of Catelyn’s explicit refusal to keep him in Winterfell. Ned might have still opposed Catelyn, but when Luwin added his support to her, he felt cornered.

    If Jon had been told at that point that the Night’s Watch was made up, not of knights and people who believed in the noble calling, but rather rapists and murderers who could not care less, he might well have changed his mind. So yeah, Catelyn’s refusal did have a direct impact on Jon ending up at the Wall.

    To clarify, I don’t hate Catelyn for her actions, I get her point of view, but she did have a major, mostly negative impact on Jon’s life.

  233. Concerning Euron and his ships:

    I don’t think that he has build 1000 ships nor that he needs to have that many. He already had ships, Yara and Theon only took about 100 of them (“they took our best ships”), and Tyrion said in 6×09 that there are more ships than that in the Iron Fleet. So, Euron possibly had 100-200 ships remaining. He could’ve maybe built 50-200 ships more in the 6 months that have possibly passed since the Kingsmoot. Also he could’ve even stolen some, maybe even from Lannisport, which could be the reason that Cersei says “enemies to the west” in the first trailer. Thus Euron would have max 400 ships at the start of S7.

    Also from the trailer we see the sea battle that is going to happen. From Dany’s side we see Yara and Theon and their men, there could possibly be dornish or Tyrell people there as well, but I don’t think that any Unsullied or Dothraki are part of that battle. This would implicate that all the ships are not part of that battle either. So maybe it’s about 500 ships or less. This would mean 500 vs. 400 or less. From the trailer we also see fire being hurled at the ships. Maybe Euron doesn’t have as many ships but has invested in better weapons which would give him a really good fighting chance.

  234. Jenny,

    Haha okay! This has been my worry since season 5. I thought I was over it but apparently any little thing hinting at possible peril still manages to get my dander up a bit 🙂

  235. Vincent Stark:
    Lmao I can’t believe people are already salty over Sansa uttering the “Lone Wolf” line.

    The line is clearly some kind of northern saying like “Winter is coming” or “The North Remembers”.Besides, it has a direct tie to Sansa’s story, since Ned has said it to Arya to disencourage her from fighting her sister.

    But since according to the fandom Sansa “is not a true Stark”, “betrayed her family” or “is a southenrer and not a northern” or other senseless bullshit she shouldn’t say it.

    Lmfao, how sad and ridiculous.

    It’s not just this one instance. It’s indicative of the show constantly trying to make Sansa relevant by giving her stories and important moments that belong to other characters. Arya has needle? Let’s give Sansa a needle of her own that she hangs around her neck. Jon/Stannis defeat the Boltons in the books? Let’s make that story all about how Sansa is awesome. Theon’s torture by Ramsay and redemption by Jeyne? Who cares, Sansa is now Ramsay’s central protagonist. Jon tries his very best to save Arya in the books? On the show it’s Sansa who has to goad him to go attack Ramsay and save Rickon. The list goes on. Sansa Stark on the show is a parasite who feeds off off other character stories, motives and lives – shows how useless this character is in the books if they can find nothing useful in her own book story.

    This line is very important to Arya and it’s not surprising that D and D pawned off that line to Sansa as well. I am pretty sure next season Arya and Bran are relegated to propping up their favorite Mary Sue Sansa.

    If you could not tell, I intensely dislike the show version of Sansa 🙂

  236. ACME:
    SerNoName,
    ghost of winterfell,
    Flayed Potatoes,
    I am going to go for a group answer ^^

    To be fair to me (I am always very fair to myself !), I did mention that Catelyn wished Jon were somewhere else. She always had, since day one. She never pretended that she did not like Jon and did not want him around. Ned knew she did not like him, all the children knew it too and so did Jon himself. And yet for 15 years (17 on the show), he stayed. Because Ned and the rest of the family wanted him to.

    The patriach’s departure to King’s Landing did not have to lead to Jon joining the Night’s Watch. Ned could have said “no”, like he did for 15-17 years, and Robb, the acting lord of Winterfell in his absence, would have supported him. Had Jon clearly indicated he wanted to stay home, are we supposed to believe Catelyn would have bypassed her husband and eldest son, packed Jon’s bags for him and taken him to the Wall anyway ? I am sorry to say this is not a scenario I find believable.

    Again wrong. Ned leaving Winterfell to become Hand of the King meant that Catelyn was now the wardeness of the North. That meant that she held all the power now. Hence why she could arrest Tyrion with authority and Ned could do nothing by do damage control. Patriarchy does not mean that Ned could give orders and Catelyn would just follow them. As a Tully, she was equally powerful. As long as Ned was there in WF, he had an excuse to have Jon there. The minute he left, Catelyn would have been well within her rights to kick Jon out and she stated quite clearly that Jon would not be staying there once Ned left. Hence why Ned acquiesced to Jon’s desire.

    And again, Jon joining the NW is not in any way or form a betrayal of the Starks. Far from it. They formed the institution to guard the wall and every generation has a Stark that has served. It brings them honor and pride. They are the guardians of the oaths and execute deserters. It’s the opposite of renouncing the Starks – it’s accepting it as part of their heritage.

  237. ygritte,

    Haha I get you.I hate that they do it every year.But it just shows how much the audience cares about him that they rely on that so much.In every interview Kit is like Jon is in mortal danger and I’m like shut up Kit I know your contract lol.

  238. “The lone wolf dies but the pack survives” are not Stark words or a famous motto like “The Lannisters always pay their debts”. The Stark words are “Winter is coming”. “The lone wolf dies but the pack survives” is a critical motif from Arya’s storyline.


    For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya’s skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father’s voice. “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives,” he said.

    “But there is no pack,” she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. “I’m not even me now, I’m Nan.”

    “You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you.”

    This is the equivalent of Mufasa telling Simba to remember who he is. It’s vital to Arya’s character. She’s the wolf girl, the one who resembles Lyanna the she-wolf. She’s always trying to find her pack (her family, Gendry and Hot Pie):

    “Can you bring back a man without a head? Not six times, just once.” – Arya to Thoros

    “I can be your family.” – Arya to Gendry

    “My name is Arya Stark of Winterfell and I’m going home.” – Arya in Braavos

    I love her so much <3 Sucks she’s being reduced to stabby stabby child killer.

    SerNoName,

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. It feels less like Game of Thrones and more like Game of Sansas.

    SerNoName,

    Not to mention the Wall was built by the founder of House Stark!! And numerous Starks went on to become rangers and lord commanders of the NW. Might as well call the Wall “Casa Stark 2”.

  239. SerNoName: It’s not just this one instance. It’s indicative of the show constantly trying to make Sansa relevant by giving her stories and important moments that belong to other characters. Arya has needle? Let’s give Sansa a needle of her own that she hangs around her neck. Jon/Stannis defeat the Boltons in the books? Let’s make that story all about how Sansa is awesome. Theon’s torture by Ramsay and redemption by Jeyne? Who cares, Sansa is now Ramsay’s central protagonist. Jon tries his very best to save Arya in the books? On the show it’s Sansa who has to goad him to go attack Ramsay and save Rickon. The list goes on. Sansa Stark on the show is a parasite who feeds off off other character stories, motives and lives – shows how useless this character is in the books if they can find nothing useful in her own book story.

    This line is very important to Arya and it’s not surprising that D and D pawned off that line to Sansa as well. I am pretty sure next season Arya and Bran are relegated to propping up their favorite Mary Sue Sansa.

    If you could not tell, I intensely dislike the show version of Sansa 🙂

    I agree but not as vehemently. I’m resigned to the fact that D&D have long been shoring up Sansa at the expense of others, especially Arya. It’s possible GRRM is empowering Sansa too, though he wouldn’t do that at Arya, Bran, or Jon’s expense. Who knows if/when we’ll know? Meanwhile, D&D are in the driver’s seat of this saga and always will be. Even if George finishes, most people would rather watch 73 stunning hours on telly than read for 73 days.

    But the trailer, as good as it was, made me ponder whether they would have the nerve to kill off Arya and give Sansa the cooler parts/lines of her story, other than the FM. I don’t truly think so. Nor do I think D&D are deliberately sabotaging Arya’s storyline. I honestly believe the pack sisters will survive the season and that maybe Arya will get a few great unexpected moments that will lift her storyline, as has been hinted among the chatterati. Nevertheless, one has to wonder to what extent D&D’s playing favourites will go.

  240. Dee Stark,

    Haha, I see you’re full in your hype mode. Welcome to the “I watched the trailer” club… like I said, it only increases the hype. As for the wolf line, I wouldn’t make such a big fuss about it… I think Sansa is conflicted herself this season. We saw her embrace her Stark name in last season but as long there is LF, she’s not safe from his manipulation. Well, we’ll see how her story turns out this season but I feel she will finally manage to get free of LF. Also, I’m a book reader myself and I don’t make such a fuss that this line was given to Sansa. I’ve always been a fan of Sansa and I admire her character.

    On off-topic, I’m incredibly pissed as I got kicked out from GoT FB group yesterday simply because I defended Sansa… I had a comment coversation about her with one of the admins on Sansa thread and both me and her were respectful to each other… I only said at the end that Sansa’s character growth is not a matter of opinion. And then chief admin got involved (who hates Sansa) and got really rude at me… I actually found a common tongue with the admin I originally had conversation with and I acknowledged the confusion… but in the next moment, I was kicked out. No warning, no firm reason.

    And it hurt me even more that this admin, with whom I had many pleasant and friendly conversations, both in the GoT group, LFU group and private chat, immediately unfriended me, personally blocked me and even left LFU group (where I’m part of the admin team)… basically so she could block me, because it’s forbidden to block admins there.

    I guess WotW will remain the only site to discuss GoT for me. I like this site though… people seem a lot more genuine fans than on many other sites. GoT group was nice but the admins’ treatment was so unprofessional… I’m so angry about that.

  241. Lord Parramandas: On off-topic, I’m incredibly pissed as I got kicked out from GoT FB group yesterday simply because I defended Sansa… I had a comment coversation about her with one of the admins on Sansa thread and both me and her were respectful to each other… I only said at the end that Sansa’s character growth is not a matter of opinion. And then chief admin got involved (who hates Sansa) and got really rude at me… I actually found a common tongue with the admin I originally had conversation with and I acknowledged the confusion… but in the next moment, I was kicked out. No warning, no firm reason.
    And it hurt me even more that this admin, with whom I had many pleasant and friendly conversations, both in the GoT group, LFU group and private chat, immediately unfriended me, personally blocked me and even left LFU group (where I’m part of the admin team)… basically so she could block me, because it’s forbidden to block admins there.

    HAHAHAHA OMG THATS THE FUNNIEST (not at you, at them) THING I HAVE EVER READ. Do these people know these characters aren’t real?

    looooooool!!!!!!!

    I am sorry Lord P that you were mistreated for having your own opinion. Are you are right, her character development is not a matter of opinion, they are facts.

    A lot of us here love discussing with you 🙂

  242. Dee Stark,

    I remember that in their rules, there was “respect different opinions”… and that’s exactly what I did. I was just discussing facts with her… and then I get banned with no reason. I’m angry as I’m an admin myself in LFU and if we banned every person we don’t agree with (and I do admit hate for certain characters does get on my nerves, especially if it’s not justified), our group would consist of ghosts instead of near-8000 members we have now…

    As for WotW, I always enjoyed this site. I may be on a bit less this year, but the vibe here is generally great and I feel I’m generally among genuine fans and you are of course the best example of that. I’m looking forward to the next batch of my reviews and I know I will enjoy writing them… just like I did last year.

  243. Lord Parramandas: As for WotW, I always enjoyed this site. I may be on a bit less this year, but the vibe here is generally great and I feel I’m generally among genuine fans and you are of course the best example of that. I’m looking forward to the next batch of my reviews and I know I will enjoy writing them… just like I did last year.

    Thank you 🙂
    I cant wait to read your reviews!

  244. Flayed Potatoes:
    ghost of winterfell,

    Catelyn is such a nuanced character. Glad we got such a great actress who did her justice.

    Agreed! In the books , Catelyn is one of my favorite female characters. On the show, even though I think her agency was a bit reduced to give Robb more prominence, she was still a great character and Michelle Fairley played her to perfection. She was the most human character of all imo.

  245. SerNoName: Arya has needle? Let’s give Sansa a needle of her own that she hangs around her neck.

    Needles also play an important role on Sansa’s storyline. Her having an necklace with one subtracts absolutely nothing from Arya’s storyline.

    Jon/Stannis defeat the Boltons in the books? Let’s make that story all about how Sansa is awesome.

    Which book are you talking about? I don’t recall Winds of Winter ever being released, you have no way of knowing if that will really happen.

    Theon’s torture by Ramsay and redemption by Jeyne? Who cares, Sansa is now Ramsay’s central protagonist.

    Jeyne is a tertiary character D&D didn’t bother to develop besides the first episode. I don’t see the the issue with giving her storyline to Sansa. Theon and Ramsay were protagonists of the Winterfell plot alongside her, It was their story as much as it was hers.

    Jon tries his very best to save Arya in the books? On the show it’s Sansa who has to goad him to go attack Ramsay and save Rickon

    This one I will actually concede is true. But Jon isn’t the only character to suffer from diversions from the books, the show is pretty much its own entity by now.

    Jorah absorbed the Jon Connington storyline, the other Tyrell brothers were condensed into Loras, Arya killed Walder Frey which (in my opinion) will not happen in the books… people only whine when it’s Sansa the one who gets more stuff to do.

  246. Dee Stark,

    🙂🙂🙂 I polished my english writing skills with over hundred LOST Memory Lanes, so I hope I will make them enjoyable. And of course, they will be on Unsullied threads this year as I’m basically unsullied when it comes to S7.

    Now, my only project is to finish my rewatch before next season starts. I still have 16 episodes left (and 6 LOST episodes on top of that)

  247. Vincent Stark: people only whine when it’s Sansa the one who gets more stuff to do.

    I’ve explained my position enough so I won’t carry on again. I’ll just say that I’m a bit different and don’t mind that part of it. My most “enjoyed” part of Sansa in the series has been her entirely ‘stolen’ story arc (from Ramsay up through the fireside chat with Jon). My main issues extend almost entirely beyond the character herself. 😉

  248. Vincent Stark: This one I will actually concede is true. But Jon isn’t the only character to suffer from diversions from the books, the show is pretty much its own entity by now.

    Actually, it is not quite true. Jon does not do anything to save Arya in the books. Melisandre does: and Jon basically declines to stop Melisandre.

    Moreover, comparing pre-assassination Jon with post-assassination Jon is a mistake. One thing that they did very well last year was have Jon be somewhat broken: his confidence was shaken and he was much less aggressive. He began building back up to his former self (and beyond) as the season progressed. That was a big part of Jon’s contribution to the story: there are many ways to be politic and political, and sometimes what is tactical is not strategic. In the end, Jon’s untactical “snap” regarding Rickon proved to be strategic gold. We might not have been surprised to see pre-assassination Jon do this: but we needed to see Jon get back to it in Series 6.

  249. Geralt of Rivia: Jon is depicted that because he is a hero. Sometimes too eager for his own good.

    Stories with protagonists do not have heroes. These represent character types from fundamentally antithetical types of storytelling.

    Look at it this way. GRRM writes stories about people stuck between options that they feel are both right and wrong. That’s what protagonists are good for showing: “Morally gray.” Heroes are used to show what “true” morals are: a proper hero embodies some morality’s idea of what happens when people do “right” things. Jon Snow is NOT that character at all.

  250. Dee Stark,

    Well, considering I’m mere 6 episodes till the end of the journey, my LOST rewatch is currently my priority and it’s been going on since November 7th (I launched it on my birthday). But I assume I will manage to finish GoT in time as well… with a bit of luck, I will be finished with exams next week so I will have more free time and more importantly, I would be less nervous… these days are like hell. And if I by any way still feel I’m too slow with GoT rewatch, I may violate my personal rule and watch 2 episodes a day on certain days.

  251. SerNoName,
    Robb was Ned’s heir and, in his father’s absence, he was in charge. Not Catelyn.
    In Westeros (Dorne excluded), women can only access decisional positions if all the men are either gone or underage. Robb was neither so his mother was, at best, his advisor but certainly not his superior. He had the finale word on everything and he, as well as everyone else, knew it.

    Vincent Stark: Jorah absorbed the Jon Connington storyline, the other Tyrell brothers were condensed into Loras, Arya killed Walder Frey which (in my opinion) will not happen in the books… people only whine when it’s Sansa the one who gets more stuff to do.

    It does look like it, doesn’t it ? 🙂

    I think Sansa will never be forgiven for her initial indifference towards and rejection of her Stark identity. That old sin casts a remarkably long shadow.

  252. ghost of winterfell,
    I agree with every single word you wrote ! And every single punctuation mark as well.

    Jon was shamefully lied to about the state of the Night’s Watch. He believed he was signing up to join an elite brotherhood, the most prestigious order in the North, and he ended up in a glorified penal colony. The poor fifteen-year-old boy, with dreams of defending the realm and heroic knighthood, based his decision on completely false and incomplete information.
    But he still chose to join. If he had refused to go or if he had decided to turn back after being told by Tyrion, while on his way to the Wall, that the Night’s Watch was basically a prison, he could have stayed at Winterfell because, chances are, Robb would have let him.

    I feel like something has to be clarified here : I do not blame Jon for taking the black. I do not think I ever indicated that I did, because I certainly do not. He had his reasons and they were valid. Good for him !

    Even more importantly, it is a crucial element of the whole family’s story arc. All the Starks, at some moment or another, decided to renounce / denounce / abandon / betray their pack to join, become or achieve something else. They all did and it is the point, I believe.
    The Starks are protagonists; they are literaly meant to suffer first and for a long time. And their suffering is intended to teach them lessons they will use later in the narrative structure to overcome the obstacles constitutive of the story’s climax.

    When the Winterfell bubble burst, they all became “lone wolves”, so to speak, and they have all had to discover a way to survive. Some did so by joining another “pack” (Jon, Bran), some by shedding their Stark identity (Arya, Sansa), some did not survive at all (Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Rickon who, in the books, will die stabbed by a unicorn). However, now that winter has come, being a lone lupine is no longer an option. Even standing alone in a cohort of other “animals” (like Jon and Bran, who are the sole direwolves in their respective group) is not a viable choice anymore.

    Summer and autumn were the Starks’ training phase, during which they separated in order to experiment with their identity and improve their skills. Winter is the climax during which the original pack has to reform, each bringing in whatever they learnt during their time apart. Avengers assemble ! ^^

    I have to confess I feel a bit perplexed by this debate because I cannot see how anyone is being robbed. The “lone wold/pack” parable may sound profound and awesome but it is a fairly facile and cliché little fable that does not communicate any transcendant or unique idea, isn’t it ? It basically boils down to “unity makes strength”, a motto that has been used so many times by so many different entities over the course of history that it has its own Wikipedia page.
    One might even argue that King Bobby, a man hardly famous for his nuanced philosophy or poetic approach to life, said something extremely similar with his “five vs. one” analogy…

    Arya’s storyline is intact. Her quest is not cheapened by a vague and unoriginal line being spoken by her sister. It does not retroactively erase the moment Arya cried when hiding Needle, not does it a posteriori destroy her revendication of her identity to Jaqen, not does it take away her affirmation of self before Walder Frey.
    I am puzzled. But then again, I often am 🙂

  253. Jenny,
    Well then, I do apologise for my generalisation.
    I do believe that much of the resentment and dislike Sansa has attracted over the years stems from her actions in Season 1 / Book, 1 which serve as a prism through which her later deeds are always perceived.
    But I accept that it is not representative of your approach and reiterate my apology 😉

  254. ACME,

    I don’t hold a grudge over her book 1 actions. Like with Jenny, season 6 was when she started to annoy me. I was actually looking forward to her reunion with Jon until I finally saw where D&D were going with her character and how they were writing her.

    And to clarify, I don’t hate Sansa, but I hate the writing for her (which are two completely different things in my eyes). I thought I’d add this since I see people think that because we’re critical of her storyline we’re automatically Sansa haters.

  255. ACME,

    See I don’t think it’s particularly that instance.Because people love a lot of other characters who have done a lot worse than Sansa.I just think that type of character either clicks or doesn’t click with people.Different strokes for different folks and all that.

  256. Flayed Potatoes,

    Tbh I don’t even hate the instances in the show by itself so much.It could be better but eh I can make it work in my mind.It’s just the online discourse™ and the cast and crew commentary have soured me on her so much.I am like that I can’ help it lol.

  257. Jenny:
    Flayed Potatoes,

    Tbh I don’t even hate the instances in the show by itself so much.It could be better but eh I can make it work in my mind.It’s just the online discourse™ and the cast and crew commentary have soured me on her so much.I am like that I can’ help it lol.

    Yes they’ve definitely contributed to my annoyance as well. Annoyance isn’t on the same level as hate though. What they are commenting on doesn’t come across on screen at all, and I’ve already mentioned here how I don’t like that other characters (main ones at that) are being robbed of their storyline for her consistently. If people still can’t see that right now, then they never will.

  258. ACME: Summer and autumn were the Starks’ training phase, during which they separated in order to experiment with their identity and improve their skills. Winter is the climax during which the original pack has to reform, each bringing in whatever they learnt during their time apart. Avengers assemble !

    I like this.
    With this line of thought I can actually see a reason and role for Sansa. I personally don’t think she’s learned HOW to play the political game as much as just being present and witnessing others do it. Seeing the results of actions doesn’t mean one can perform those actions in my book. Still, I think we’re suppose to believe that she has learned the how-to. So her Stark skill could be in dealing with the likes of Cersei and Littlefinger. The other remaining Starks learned skills that might not as directly tie in to dealing with that specific type of game playing…

  259. ACME: I think Sansa will never be forgiven for her initial indifference towards and rejection of her Stark identity. That old sin casts a remarkably long shadow.

    Some people may hate Sansa for her early actions, but not all of them.

    I’ve noticed she started getting a lot of hate after season 6, because she had the audacity of sharing a storyline with Jon Snow as his equal, and not playing second fiddle to him. It was too much for some of his fans to take, I think.

    This season,

    It seems Daenerys will be the one relentlessly attacked for sharing a storyline with him.
  260. Vincent Stark: Some people may hate Sansa for her early actions, but not all of them.

    I’ve noticed she started getting a lot of hate after season 6, because she had the audacity of sharing a storyline with Jon Snow as his equal, and not playing second fiddle to him. It was too much for some of his fans to take, I think.

    This season,

    Haha, then it’s good I’ve always been bigger Sansa fan than Jon fan. I really liked her in S6 and she became my favorite character. I do think her character gets too much undeserved hate compared to some other characters…

  261. Vincent Stark: I’ve noticed she started getting a lot of hate after season 6, because she had the audacity of sharing a storyline with Jon Snow as his equal, and not playing second fiddle to him. It was too much for some of his fans to take, I think.

    Vincent Stark,

    I’m sure some people felt that way, but that’s also an extreme generalization on your part.

    On a personal level, I’ve always liked Sansa, but found her annoying as hell in season 6. My wife feels the same way as do many fans of the show, as you can see from the many comments over the last year about it. Just because some of us didn’t like her in season 6 doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Jon Snow or some sort of petty jealousy angle. As Jenny rightly said, perhaps it actually had to do with her actions and words rather than some childish fanboy/fangirl debate over who should get the most screen time.

  262. Clob,
    I believe that is the idea indeed 😉

    Jenny,
    I agree wholeheartedly with you that other characters have done far worse and yet seem to get away “scotsfree” with it. I believe it is a matter of both first impressions and “redemptive arc” (be it real or perceived).

    Our first impression of Jaime was bad because pushing children out of windows is rarely the surest way to people’s hearts. But he went through what many readers and viewers alike consider to be a redemption. I happen to disagree but it is neither here nor there. He is broadly perceived as having paid for his crimes.
    The same logic applies to the Hound.
    Negative first impression + redemptive arc = forgiveness.

    On the other side of the spectrum, we have characters like Lyanna.
    Lyanna did far worse than Sansa ever did : though their storylines are basically the same, the aunt’s version is “heightened” (she did not indirectly cause just the death of her father, but of her father and her brother, etc). However, our first impression of her was that of a dead rape victim who was adored by our main protagonist, Ned. So, by the time we found out the truth of her actions, it was too late in the game. The first impression had crystallised and we could no longer think of her as an antagonist, thereby dismissing or ignoring the more questionable aspects of her deeds.
    Positive first impression + late negative revelations = forgiveness.

    Our first impression of Sansa was bad. It was meant to be bad. She was the Stark who did not want to be a Stark, who had the unmitigated gall not to care. And she did not get along with fan-favourite Arya and ratted Ned out ! On top of that, she symbolically rejected Tyrion, another popular character, while associating with fan-detested Littlefinger. So…
    Bad first impression + no redemptive arc = burn the witch ! ^^

    Flayed Potatoes: I’ve already mentioned here how I don’t like that other characters (main ones at that) are being robbed of their storyline for her consistently. If people still can’t see that right now, then they never will.

    I guess I am one of the people 😉

    But you are right, I really cannot see it and perhaps I never will. To me, the “lone wolf/pack” parable is a non issue. I might be heartless and cynical (well, I am French so there is no “might”, I am heartless and cynical) but this line does not provoke an emotional response in me. It did not when I read it in the books, it did not when I heard it spoken in the trailer.
    It is a common notion : united we stand. Jon communicates virtually the same message earlier in the trailer when talking about the need to fight together as one because it is the only way they will survive. It is exactly the same underlying idea.

    The particular phrasing does not really matter to me and I do not see it as exclusive to this or that character. It is not even really specific to wolves, come to think of it. Lions are gregarious animals too. So Tywin could have said “the lone lion dies, the pride survives” and it would have been just as true (though, to be honest, it would not have fit the narrative themes explored and embodied by the individualistic Lannisters).

  263. I must say I find it strange when scrolling through this board how little character appreciation/admiration I notice… I feel there is too much focus on what is their role in the story than on characters themselves.

  264. ACME,

    I find it funny how much backlash Sansa recieves for “ratting out Ned” (something that never occured on TV) even though that act had zero effect on how the things developed… Ned screwed up the most himself, when he told Cersei about that, and it was LF and Janos Slynt who ultimately betrayed Ned. But no… Sansa is the one to blame.

  265. Lord Parramandas,
    She was his daughter so it would not be strange for people to expect more loyalty from her than from Littlefinger or Janos. Now, I would argue that she was twelve and had not been told why it was so very important to leave King’s Landing at once. As such, the spoiled and deluded little girl that she was may have believed Ned was just being his contrarian and grumpy Northerner self, disapproving of all the “fun” and “beauty” of the South, so she decided to put her foot down and stop her dad from destroying her “pretty princess” dream.
    As for Ned shooting himself in the foot, you are preaching to the choir here ^^

    Vincent Stark,
    I think it is more structural than that.

    In a story permeated by fantasy, I believe we all inherently and instinctively give more importance to fantasy-related characters because they are “legitimate”, adapted to the environment. Similarly, we expect non fantasy-related characters to occupy a subservient role, to implicitly acknowledge their inadequacy by putting themselves at the service of better-suited characters. If they do not accept that inherent hierarchy and instead revendicate (either verbally or through their actions) equal billing with their fantasy-related counterparts, then they may appear pretentious, arrogant. Wilfully unaware of the story’s natural order.

    Jon is connected to Direwolves and fights mystical creatures. Daenerys has her dragons and is fire-resistant. Arya is also Direwolves-wired and works with the Faceless Men and their magical death masks. Bran has the greenseeing and the “mind over body” fantasy trope. So does Tyrion. As for Varys, he feels “otherworldly”, due to his distinct physical appearance and possible Targaryen connection. As such, they are all fantasy-related characters.

    Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, Littlefinger, Sansa, Davos, Pod, Bronn, the Hound… There is not an ounce of fantasy in these characters. They distinguish themselves by an absence of supernatural ability or fantasy theme. Now, Jaime, Brienne, Davos, Pod, Bronn and the Hound are all subservient to someone else and therefore appear to accept their status in the story’s hierarchical structure. And then, there are Cersei, Littlefinger and Sansa…

    The Lioness, in spite of her utter lack of magical qualities, aspires to be top dog and is generally viewed as a villain even though she hasn’t done anything that monstrous (with the exception of hunting down and systematically decapitating people who happen to be short).
    Littlefinger, also known as the least magical person in the galaxy (the jetpack does not count), has the unmitigated gall to want everything and is generally viewed as a villain. To be fair, he has committed more than his share of reprehensible deeds but not much worse than Varys who, broadly speaking, is received more favourably by readers and viewers alike.
    Sansa, without any credential in the fantasy department, does not think of herself as a lesser Stark than her siblings and…
    They are second-tier characters whose seeming desire to be top-tier makes them appear like up-starters, I think.

    It is not a matter of allegedly angry fans rooting for their personal favourite. I believe it may be broader, more thematic. It may be about the respective legitimacy of fantasy and non fantasy characters in a world with strong fantasy elements. However, considering the universe of ASoIaF might lose all its fantasy and magic by the end of the narration, it seriously complicates the issue.

  266. SerNoName,

    Agree with what you said, until the part about her being useless in the books. She is the key to bringing the Vale into the war in the books as Littlefinger sets her on the path to marrying Harry the Heir if she can win his heart. I bet in the books as things look dire for Jon against the Boltons when he is eventually resurrected and heads south it’ll be Sansa + Vale troops that turn the tide. That is what D&D should have done imho. 🙂 Those Vale troops for Jon will be huge in the books to helping him fight the Others while Cersei gets her comeuppances from Dany.

    Vincent Stark,

    It wasn’t her playing the part of being Jon’s equal. It was her hiding an entire army from Jon while constantly nagging him with “we don’t have enough men” and then unnecessarily putting his life in danger when he goes to battle with the forces that he has instead of waiting for the Vale troops. Not the actress’s fault, just poor writing/planning.

  267. ACME,

    Funny thing is that when it comes to GoT, I like most of these “non-fantasy” characters more than typical fantasy ones. I feel they are more layered and fit better into the story.

    As for Sansa & Ned situation, I don’t understand why is it so often brought up here on this site considering TV Sansa never did such thing.

  268. Vincent Stark: I’ve noticed she started getting a lot of hate after season 6, because she had the audacity of sharing a storyline with Jon Snow as his equal, and not playing second fiddle to him. It was too much for some of his fans to take, I think.

    LOL!!!!!!!!! Audacity hahahaha

  269. Mr Derp,

    Why was she annoying as hell in season 6??

    She annoyed me once by not telling jon about the Vale. But annoying as hell? Why?

  270. ACME,

    This is a great comment.

    I think, as a show only fan (for now), with no prior bias in my head, each of the main characters have a full, interesting, and superb story going for them, and cant see the whole “robbing from other characters” (as I said with no prior book bias).

  271. Lord Parramandas: As for Sansa & Ned situation, I don’t understand why is it so often brought up here on this site considering TV Sansa never did such thing.

    But the book and show are the same!!!!

    hahaha

  272. Vincent Stark: Some people may hate Sansa for her early actions, but not all of them.

    I’ve noticed she started getting a lot of hate after season 6, because she had the audacity of sharing a storyline with Jon Snow as his equal, and not playing second fiddle to him. It was too much for some of his fans to take, I think.

    This season,

    Except Sansa did not share Jon’s storyline as an equal. What should have been Jon’s storyline was turned into a Sansa storyline because the writers needed to give her her big moments after the rape fiasco. I would have been fine if the two of them had been given equal weightage. Instead Jon was turned into a supporting character in his own storyline to accommodate her. The commentary was all about how Sansa would take back Winterfell with the help of her brother and her brother was treated as more like a bystander in it all. So yeah, like Flayed Potatoes said, all the hype that I felt when the two of them re-united pretty much went away when I saw the direction the writers were taking.

    P.S : I do not hate Sansa, I like her actually, but not the writing for her for the past 2 seasons ( for other reasons as well, not just because of Jon).

  273. Dee Stark:
    Mr Derp,

    Why was she annoying as hell in season 6??

    She annoyed me once by not telling jon about the Vale. But annoying as hell? Why?

    Dee Stark,

    I don’t want to get into this too much since it becomes a topic in the comments section on almost every article, and some people take everything the wrong way, so I’ll be as brief as I can be with my thoughts, as this is just my opinion. Sansa’s character made no sense in season 6. It wasn’t all bad by any means, but when you put it all together it was one big disorienting roller coaster. This would be the fault of writing more than anything else to me:

    * Battle of the Bastards episode 9: Complained and acted offended that she wasn’t asked her opinion during the war council scene. However, in a previous meeting (episode 5), she had absolutely no trouble whatsoever speaking up without being asked to do so first. When Jon finally asks her opinion in episode 9 after the war council scene she says that she doesn’t know anything about battles. Just don’t do what he wants you to do. Very helpful Sansa, thank you so much. Usually when someone is chomping at the bit to give an opinion, they will, you know, actually have something worth sharing.

    * In episode 5 when she’s speaking up she’s disrespectful to Davos and dismissive about everything he has to say despite the fact that she didn’t know any better. The “How well do you know the North?” line came off as bratty to me. Well Davos apparently knows the North better than she does because he was able to successfully recruit more men than she did. All Sansa managed to do was piss off Lord Glover. She thought name-dropping would be all she needed to do to get her way. Bratty.

    * Sansa argues with Jon that they need more men. Jon asks where to get these men and she stays quiet despite the fact she knew about the Vale army.

    * Sansa tells Jon that “only a fool would trust Littlefinger”, but then she still has that look on her face at the King in the North scene where it appears like she’s still being influenced by him.

    *Sansa more or less labels Littlefinger a useless idiot at the beginning of episode 5, but literally seconds afterward lets Littlefinger get into her head with the “half brother” line.

    These are just some of the reasons why I feel the way I do. And again, this is only my opinion. I’m not interested in getting into a debate over it. I understand that plenty disagree and that’s fine.

  274. Dee Stark:
    ACME,

    This is a great comment.

    I think, as a show only fan (for now), with no prior bias in my head, each of the main characters have a full, interesting, and superb story going for them, and cant see the whole “robbing from other characters” (as I said with no prior book bias).

    Yes, that’s what bothers me the most with GoT fandom… apart from you here, I sense very little appreciation for the characters themselves. Everyone is so focused on the books and how some character has too little screentime and how other characters “stole the story”… I see just a series of complaints. Both Sansa and Jon are POV in the books and when it comes to TV series, I never sensed that Sansa is any less of a main character to the story than Jon… they both appeared in similar number of episodes and Sansa pretty much deserves to have her own story. I must say that I really liked her in S6 and she became my favorite character after that season… but this is still GoT and characters are not black and white. Both Sansa and Jon have their own flaws.

  275. I don’t mean to get you to start a debate. I have seen peoples stance on this, and I wanted to know yours, which is why I asked.

    Stuff she did annoyed me.. but I think it is meant to annoy the audience. I don’t think those were mistakes. I think they were intended to. In the example below, it was written that way in order to put her in her place. She was bratty, and still a little bratty. That never changed. Her behaviour with Robyn in season 4, even in season 5. She still displayed bratty/entitled behaviour. Its who she is.

    Mr Derp: * In episode 5 when she’s speaking up she’s disrespectful to Davos and dismissive about everything he has to say despite the fact that she didn’t know any better. The “How well do you know the North?” line came off as bratty to me. Well Davos apparently knows the North better than she does because he was able to successfully recruit more men than she did. All Sansa managed to do was piss off Lord Glover. She thought name-dropping would be all she needed to do to get her way. Bratty.

    I was annoyed she didn’t tell Jon about the Vale (because I love Jon), but so glad it was addressed in episode 10… 🙂
    The look at the end is setting up for season 7.. which I am fine with. If conflict is what they want, whatever. Its part of the story I guess.

    Anyway… just wanted to know what you thought. Thanks for sharing 🙂

  276. ghost of winterfell,

    I am obsessed with Jon, but I didn’t see it that way.. The Battle of the Bastards was HUGE for his character development. That was all Jon. Yes she came with LF to save them, but that wasn’t the focus of the battle. At all.

    Yes sometimes he was in a “supporting role” in a scene, rallying the North and stuff, but we can’t forget, he is a bastard. For the first time they are showing us Sansa take charge of her life and I don’t know why people make it seem like it is casting a shadow over Jon. Jon is in a bit of a struggle internally since being murdered and awakened from death So the more confident (Sansa) will overshadow in some situations. He was then propelled to King in the North status. What else do people want?

    Its sooo clear How important Jon is in this story.

    Anyways… again, its been over debated, just my two cents.

  277. Lord Parramandas,

    I don’t think it’s a matter of thinking Sansa shouldn’t have her own story. It’s her being inserted into and given parts of the story that aren’t hers because D & D love Sophie and wanted to give her more to do. She was annoying as hell season 6 and Sophie’s delusions about the character in every interview do not help.

  278. Dee Stark,

    Yeah, I won’t get into details because I don’t want to bring up the same arguments again, it’s already been debated enough. Let’s just say we think differently on this 🙂 .

  279. Dee Stark: Why was she annoying as hell in season 6??

    I better stay out of it. 😛 Although… everything qualified for me after the fireside chat up to her and Jon’s scene watching Mel ride away…

  280. Having said all that, I’ve always liked Sophie Turner as well as her portrayal of Sansa Stark. I just thought a lot of bizarre and nonsensical decisions were made for her character in season 6. Hopefully season 7 will clear up some of this crapola by officially putting this silly Sansa-Littlefinger-Jon triangle to rest.

    …Oh, and there’s a GoT marathon (seasons 1-6) on HBO during the weekend before 4th of July!

    Happy Friday 🙂

  281. The fact that Sansa is consistently being given storylines from other characters to give her more to do and because the showrunners like her should tell you she’s not a main character at the level of Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Cersei. The fact that she allegedly doesn’t have enough to do tells you she’s not main. A main character always has things to do in the story.

  282. Mr Derp,

    Happy Friday! HBO has been airing previous seasons and I almost forgot just how much information could be packed into one single episode. I guess I understand how casual fans only remember the names of like 5 characters lol.

  283. Lord Parramandas,

    Well for one, it’s Jon’s story in the books. Sansa was just inserted into it on the show. It’s a fact that fighting the Boltons to take back Winterfell and save “Arya” was something Jon himself was driven to do in the books as a culmination of his own internal struggle, which Mel and the Pink Letter precipitated, while this motivation was entirely stripped from him and handed over the Sansa in the series.

    For another, Sansa isn’t on Jon’s level as a main, much as her fans may wish she was. Kit’s ahead of her in the credits, on a different pay tier, and has been #1 in screen time from Season 5 onward, second only to Peter overall. He will likely pass him to claim the #1 spot after Season 7. Jon has been carrying his own storyline since Book/Season 1, has the second highest number of POV chapters after Tyrion (and is steadily gaining on him), is one of the original Big Five, and was one of only two characters that movie studios were prepared to focus exclusively on in their adaptations, with Dany being the other.

    How do you figure that Sansa comes even close?

  284. Flayed Potatoes:
    Mr Derp,

    Happy Friday! HBO has been airing previous seasons and I almost forgot just how much information could be packed into one single episode. I guess I understand how casual fans only remember the names of like 5 characters lol.

    Flayed Potatoes,

    Yup, I caught a few episodes on HBO this past Wednesday night. They seemed like a random mix of episodes, but I think they were choosing ones specifically that had white walker scenes in them.

    Winter is Coming (season 1 episode 1)
    Valar Morghulis (season 2 episode 10)
    The Climb (season 3 episode 6)
    Oathkeeper (season 4 episode 4)
    Hardhome (season 5 episode 8)
    The Door (season 6 episode 5)

    They all had a white walker scene, except for The Climb. Not sure why they didn’t show “Second Sons” instead of “The Climb”, but I’m good with that cuz it’s a great episode.

  285. Lord Parramandas:
    ghost of winterfell,

    And why it “should” be Jon’s story? Sansa is as much a main character as Jon in TV series.

    I missed your comment earlier.
    Again, I don’t wish to restart these arguments… anyways imo, the pink letter should have been about Jon (in the books this was one of his most pivotal and defining moments). Leading an army made up of Wildlings and the remnants of the northern army was his storyline. Sansa’s story was connected with LF and bringing the Vale army.

    I get that the writers did not want to do her Vale plot, and I wouldn’t have minded them combining her story with Jon’s, if they had not compromised on his character for this purpose.

    As for your statement that Sansa is a main character, I don’t think I have said anything to contradict this.

  286. elybe,

    but this is not the books, half the 8546213478789 people haven’t read the books, or some don’t even know the books exist. I really do not understand this argument, not only for sansa, but for anything.

    “but in the books……………” doran was amazing — stannis would never burn his daughter — sansa was in the vale —- a said this to b it wasn’t c who said it

  287. elybe,

    #Facts

    Don’t forget the big battle episode he got in season 4 with him as the lead.

    Mr Derp,

    I’d say The Climb is pretty important because it’s focused so much on the Wall itself, and how succeeding to climb it means the wildlings can attack CB from the south and find refuge from the whitewalkers. If Jon was able to climb it, whose to say wights won’t be able to do the same if whatever magic protecting it is gone? It also has Littlefinger’s monologue right before Jon completes the climb which should tell us how the south is focused on playing games and on petty squabbles, whereas the real battle is somewhere in the deep north. It’s a different type of fight to survive as opposed to the one LF is talking about and it’s focused on the big picture. Which is why I think LF will fall and Jon will beat him. 😀

    I love that episode tbh. It’s my favorite mid-season episode alongside Kissed by Fire. 🙂

  288. Dee Stark,

    No but it’s an adaptation based on said books and Pink Letter is a key element in the storyline of a key character (Jon) about his relationship with another key character (Arya). Pink Letter is actually what gets Jon killed.

  289. Flayed Potatoes: The fact that Sansa is consistently being given storylines from other characters to give her more to do and because the showrunners like her should tell you she’s not a main character at the level of Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Cersei. The fact that she allegedly doesn’t have enough to do tells you she’s not main. A main character always has things to do in the story.

    The fact that she’s been given other characters storyline in the show doesn’t mean she doesn’t have her own plot in the books. It means the writers thought her story would not make for good TV – and they have said so.

    Her TWOW storyline will most probably not combine with Jon’s until the very end of the book (when she’ll probably save his ass), but since it involves other minor characters the show never introduced (Harry the Heir, Myranda, many Lords of the vale) D&D decided to scrap it and simply combine her story with other characters to make the show easier for viewers to watch.

    You are entitled to like or dislike their decision, but you can’t deny she has her own story in the books. It’s simply not true.

  290. Flayed Potatoes,

    Yes but in the show, that’s not the case. I have never read the books, so to me, the letter received, which I didn’t even know had a name, is something else. I don’t know of any other letter had you not told me. They are separate.

    and its an adaptation that even the author himself said are to be treated separately from each other.

  291. Dee Stark,

    The show and books being different doesn’t mean that one character should have their story and motives handed over to another. I know you disagree and think it’s all good, but try to see this from the perspective of those who enjoyed Jon’s ADWD storyline and found it essential to his character development, only to witness his drive, struggle, and elements of his characterization surgically transplanted into another character in order to “empower” her, directly at his expense. As far as I’m concerned, the show being “different” doesn’t justify this, nor does it justify other needless rewrites that have done a disservice to characters. Different strokes and all that. I was actually very excited about Jon and Sansa reuniting in the show and sharing this storyline as a team, before Episode 4 aired and I realized, much like others have already stated, where this dynamic was really going.

    Flayed Potatoes,

    Whoops, forgot about the fact that he’s been headlining episodes, taking up anywhere from 50% to the entire run, ever since Season 4. Thanks!

  292. elybe,

    I actually mentioned it in a comment here:

    Dee Stark,

    that I don’t feel like Jon’s character was by any means sidelined, and this is from someone who has no prior knowledge of any other story.In fact, I thought they did a great job considering he was killed and brought back, leading up to the battle, and even the struggles he had in that one episode alone (episode 9).
    I guess it will always be hard for MOST (not all) people who have read the books to not have their opinion of what is written into the show or how it is written be influenced by what they know from the books
    Oh well.

  293. Dee Stark,

    I think this may be where we see a disparity between those who are more familiar with Jon’s internal characterization and trajectory in the books (which supposedly the show will follow in terms of the ending) and those who primarily connect with him on the show. I don’t think he was necessarily sidelined either, and it appears that a significant portion of the broader viewership still regarded him as “owning” Season 6, but he received a lot of criticism from a number of reviewers and certain vocal online segments of the fanbase for “weaknesses” that were a direct result of handing his determination to take back Winterfell over to Sansa. He was being criticized for lacking character traits that in fact did belong to him, but were being re-assigned to another in an effort to bolster her after victimizing her during the previous season. That I was very much not up for.

  294. elybe,

    elybe: but were being re-assigned to another in an effort to bolster her after victimizing her during the previous season.

    You truly believe that the show runners changed the scripts for season 6 (due to the backlash received) after season 5 ended?

    elybe: familiar with Jon’s internal characterization and trajectory in the books

    But in the book, you have the advantage of being inside his head…in addition to everything else.

    elybe: but he received a lot of criticism from a number of reviewers and certain vocal online segments of the fanbase for “weaknesses” that were a direct result of handing his determination to take back Winterfell over to Sansa

    I remember these discussions, and I believe I had some of my own arguments against that, which I had posted around here. I also disagree with this, but lets not get into that as well, again! LOLS!!

  295. elybe,

    I looked up some screentime charts a while ago and apparently in season 1 he was in second place after Ned lol. Imagine that.

    Dee Stark,

    Sometimes it takes a couple of minutes for the new gravatar to show.

  296. Dee Stark,

    That’s weird. I just signed in with wordpress and it works just fine.

    Maybe you should delete your cached images or cookies.

  297. elybe,

    Here we go again… “in the books”, “in the books”….

    Seriously, is anyone of you even capable of enjoying this show without bringing up these freaking books? I will say this… apart from Dee, almost everyone here lacks the vibe and attitude a fan should possess in my eyes. You completely lack the passion, the enthusiasm and all I see these days is constant complaining, speaking negatively of the characters and comparison to the books now that the show is way over the books. I’m really waiting for the season start so I can finally move on to Unsullied threads and leave these damn books behind.

  298. Lord Parramandas,

    This is totally not fair.Look at the comments from the beginning.People are super exited about the show.I absolutely adore the show.I don’t even care about the books.That doesn’t mean that we can’t disagree about a character.

  299. Jenny,

    Something is different this year. I followed the site for entire year before S6 and I remember I really enjoyed. The complainers were mostly ignored… but this year, every time I came here, I got really annoyed by so many comments here. Something is different… and not in a good way. Saying how characters were “robbed” of the story is way over the top… GoT has an ensemble cast and main characters carry their own stories. It was never only about Jon or Daenerys.

  300. Lord Parramandas: almost everyone here lacks the vibe and attitude a fan should possess in my eyes. You completely lack the passion, the enthusiasm

    Talk about a blanket statement! Hey, I have repeated issues with one cast member and not necessarily the character portrayed as much. I do try to stifle it as much as possible but the related topic is continually talked about. / I don’t think there are too many people that have watched every episode as many times as I have and I’m on and off this site all day every day year around. I’ll read and likely participate in just about every thread or conversation regarding this show. <– All that is to say that I have as much passion and enthusiasm for the show as anyone.

    * People are going to disagree about different things and look at those things in different manners. It doesn't mean one is any less passionate or excited about GoT.

  301. Lord Parramandas:
    elybe,

    Here we go again… “in the books”, “in the books”….

    Seriously, is anyone of you even capable of enjoying this show without bringing up these freaking books? I will say this… apart from Dee, almost everyone here lacks the vibe and attitude a fan should possess in my eyes. You completely lack the passion, the enthusiasm and all I see these days is constant complaining, speaking negatively of the characters and comparison to the books now that the show is way over the books. I’m really waiting for the season start so I can finally move on to Unsullied threads and leave these damn books behind.

    Lord Parramandas,

    I agree in the sense that there has been a lot more character x vs. character y debating and it’s tiring, but I don’t really see a lot of complaining (other than your post bashing the commenters here). I just see a fan discussion where people have opposing opinions. That’s kind of the whole point of this website. If everyone came here to gush over the show and all shared the same opinions then WOTW would be an awfully boring place to be. Please don’t lump everyone here into your condescending post that no one here has the passion and enthusiasm that you personally expect to see. To me that’s much more divisive than any tiresome fanboy/fangirl debate over who’s character is better or more important.

  302. Mr Derp,

    Well, sharing opinions is good but what I see these days is sharing negative opinion with the positive vibe being pretty much absent. And like I said above, it seemed to me the site was a lot more positive last year and a lot more enthusiastic. And I’m really getting sick of this constant comparison to the books, and usually in unfavorable way… is it really so hard to enjoy the show without bringing up those books?

    Clob,

    Forgive me for saying this but every time I come here, I see you bashing Sansa.

  303. Lord Parramandas,

    Oh yea? Well rabble rabble! 🙂

    It’s Friday and I’m in no mood to argue. I haven’t read the books, so I can’t really comment too much on the whole book vs. show vibe. All I know is that there are PLENTY of comments that I personally find obnoxious, but it’s best to ignore them sometimes. There’s few things worse than getting into some pissing contest over the internet that goes nowhere. People have different opinions. Some extreme, some subtle. Who are you to calibrate what is and isn’t an acceptable amount of enthusiasm and passion for a show that millions of people of all walks of life enjoy?

  304. I’m happy to try and get things back into a positive vibe.

    Three lords walk into a tavern, a Stark, a Martell, and a Lannister…..oh wait, nevermind. I don’t think that joke plays too well.

    Two translators are on a sinking ship…

  305. Mr Derp,

    The site has a different vibe for me this year… I’m almost sure something changed since last year. I’m not feeling comfortable here anymore… not in a way I did last year.

  306. I have no problem with Sansa as a character, neither in the books, or the show. I don’t exactly like her, though I started to like her better in book4. She is who she is, and Sophie is doing a great job. I prefer Theon saving Jeyne (a nobody) as a redemption over saving Sansa (the Lady), but whatever, I understand why they changed Sansa’s storyline in S5, and I never had a problem with that either. She was true to her character in S6 as well, (with all the annoying bits) so I never had a problem with that either. I never thought that she stole Jon’s big moments, even if Jon is one of my fav. characters, and Sansa is nowhere near.
    What I never understood, and my annoyment may cloud my feelings towards Sansa as well, is how some of her fans interpret Sansa’s character – as someone with great leading skills, learning stuff from LF, and eventually being able to outmanoever him, or in general smart enough to see the big picture, and being able to successfuly “play the game”. Because I just can’t see it. She didn’t do a single thing (in the books or the show), that would make me believe she really is deserving of that kind of hype. So my problem is that they (fans, and maybe D&D as well) try to sell her as someone capable of dealing with politics of any kind (apart from being the Lady in a castle – not on her own, but with a Lord by her side).
    So maybe, because Jon is actually shown as having a great political mind in the books, it somehow hurts that he is totally lacking it in the show, and my general feeling is that D&D try to give that to Sansa, even though, for me, it is not in-character for the Sansa they’ve been building up till now.

  307. Lord Parramandas,

    Well damn. If Tyrion and Missandei jokes don’t help, then I’m not sure what will!

    Hmmm, perhaps a trip to Littlefinger’s brothel would cure what ails you? I hear Marei is quite the spear handler don’t you know……

  308. Lord Parramandas,

    Then you must not come by very often because that’s a very small part of what I discuss – or – you only bother to pay attention to those topics because she is your favorite. I actually feel I limit my inclusion in such things and I very rarely bash SANSA the character. I will occasionally have discussions about her. When a topic goes heavy into Sansa and many are discussing I have every right to add my perspective of the character. If you want to bother yourself with searching though everything I’ve posted you’ll see I’ve repeatedly said I never had a strong like or dislike of the character. She was just a “meh character” for me. I don’t dislike the character as much as I don’t care for the portrayal. I don’t wish to ‘spell it out’ but maybe you understand anyway.

    Even so, if you’re a huge Sansa fan and only jump into those discussions every couple of months you’re going to find a lot of people bashing her, no matter what site you’re on. You’ve chosen to really like a character that a lot of people don’t. Everyone has somebody or something on or about the show that they’re not too keen on. However, like I’ve said a number of times, my issue isn’t the character herself.

    It’s fairly ridiculous to pop in and suggest people aren’t passionate and enthusiastic about the show because they don’t agree with you on everything.

  309. Dee Stark:
    elybe,

    You truly believe that the show runners changed the scripts for season 6 (due to the backlash received) after season 5 ended?

    Nah, I think this was their agenda from the moment they started writing season 6. And sure, agree to disagree! I was never expecting a 1:1 adaptation of Jon’s character, but again, you don’t need Jon’s internal monologue to keep his motivates as his own.

    Mr Derp,

    Thank you for this. I could certainly keep the comparison to internal show consistencies, but this content policing every time someone voices a differing opinion gets old, as does being chastised or even shamed for respectfully expressing an opinion someone disagrees with. This pattern of “I dislike X on the show” being followed up with “I wish people who think that would just bugger off” instead of engaging in a civilized discussion defeats the purpose of having an open forum.

    Lord Parramandas,

    You don’t have to agree with me, but there are more respectful ways of responding. Accusing me of “lacking passion” for the show and lumping me in as a certain type of poster just because I don’t personally care for your favorite character or call out what I see as occasional weak writing or poorly-executed agendas not only needlessly takes this into personal territory, but it insinuates that the only way to be a “proper” fan of the show is to enjoy it strictly in the manner that you approve of. We can actually both enjoy this show without holding the same opinions about it.

  310. Clob,

    Actually, that’s what I find strange… there was not nearly as much Sansa dislike last year and during S6 as there is now. And I didn’t get impression overall that people still hate her… not here, not on FB sites. In fact, many of people I know really like her.

  311. Any way, I’m not here to spend my evening arguing… I’ll be back when the time is right. But I still stand to my opinion that I sense a bit too little enthusiasm on the site this year and not enough appreciation for characters themselves.

  312. Lord Parramandas,

    Well, there have always been book!Sansa haters, which as I said I never considered myself. While watching the show though there wasn’t much to actually hate on for four seasons. She was just kind of there at King’s Landing not doing a whole lot. What started ruffling the feathers for some was the new ‘stolen’ story arc for her. I’ve admitted that personally I enjoyed that part of Sansa’s story the most so far, but that’s not true for everyone. Then of course her messing with Jon didn’t please people. Perhaps the most dislike has been fueled by Sophie herself and the things she’s said about the character. While all that keeps adding up it has led to “this.” I’ve been seeing the same kinds of posts on forums and reddit sites as here.

  313. Yea, I personally know plenty of people who dislike Sansa and plenty that like her. I don’t really get what the problem is here…To each their own.

  314. Well, this thread turned into a giant clusterfuck of negativity. I think I’ll just go watch those San Francisco opening credits for the tenth time…

  315. Derp

    That is all. Enjoy the weekend everyone…as long as you measure up to my personal expectations of passion and enthusiasm that is

  316. Mr Derp,

    I’m working tomorrow, by choice. Does that count as “enthusiasm,” “masochism,” or “enthusiastic masochism”? I want to make sure I’m enjoying at least one thing properly this week.

  317. Mr Derp,

    Interesting! I had just assumed that they picked 5 of their stronger episodes when I saw that.

    Clob,

    I never understood hatred for book Sansa either, minus when she snitched on Ned to Cersei and got her dad killed. 🙂 After that though, I thought everything was very good.

  318. Lord Parramandas,

    Geesh Im sorry that happened – people can be such a holes, esp when its al done on social media and not person to person. Glad you are here (and I agree with you about Sansa btw, so you can always sit on my W bench)

    Lord Parramandas,

    Oh my, last year was the worse, almost worse than in season 5. Its always been there. Anymore I scroll by, unless Im unusually bored which I am at the moment, think its time for me to get off line. I try not to get involved in this topic. But no one should be kicked off something anything for a disagreement over something as minor as this

    So I guess I’ll take a break from these very unenthusdatic posts and go do some reading ……Have a good night all

  319. I guess I’ll have to be included in the Sansa hater faction. I’ve never been impressed by Sophie’s acting on the show. In my opinion, she’s been the weakest female lead by far. She has had her moments where it looked like she was improving, but then the writing would try to make her into something that hasn’t fit her character arc.

    For example, she hasn’t shown much of any intelligence or leadership skills, yet D&D & Sophie expect us to view her as some big game player… I just haven’t seen it or maybe Sophie is unable to convey it. Regardless, I think the hate for Sansa really ramped up last year when she was forced into Jon’s story & he was made to look like a fool and Sansa the saving heroine. It’s that kind of ridiculousness that rubbed many the wrong way.

    And I’m feeling the same way about the “lone wolf” line. That was Ned’s line for Arya and it really helped shape & mold her character. I pray that Arya tells it to Sansa & she repeats it to LF when she finally breaks free from him. If they just give it to Sansa on her own, then this is two seasons in a row where they will have taken things from Jon & Arya and given them to Sansa to make her seem more important than she really was meant to be. It all just reeks of D&D being Sophie fanboys… I wish they’d stop that crap.

    What’s next? Sophie will touch the weirwood tree in season 8 & discover the secret to stopping the Night King????? Watch out Bran. D&D’s Sansa/Sophie fanfic will have her leeching off your story next.

  320. Lord Parramandas: almost everyone here lacks the vibe and attitude a fan should possess in my eyes. You completely lack the passion, the enthusiasm and all I see these days is constant complaining, speaking negatively of the characters and comparison to the books now that the show is way over the books.

    I don’t want to belabor this too long, but exclusionary statements about what qualifies a person to be a ‘true fan’ really get my goat. I utterly and categorically reject any definition of fandom that requires people to leave their critical faculties at the door.

    Of course people who have read the books will compare the show to the books! And people who haven’t will compare the show to other shows, movies, literature, folklore, personal experiences etc. It’s only natural, whichever version we prefer.

    I make part of my living writing movie and theatre reviews, and I’d be at a loss for words if it weren’t fair game for me to say how such-and-such a movie compares to the book it’s based on, an earlier version or earlier installment in a franchise, other films in the same genre, pop culture, current political events or the zeitgeist in general. And I certainly wouldn’t be serving my readers if I declared whatever the current iteration of something is as the best that ever could be. Doesn’t mean that I didn’t like a movie/play if I point out both its strengths and weaknesses, and it’s extremely rare for me to cite only the bad or only the good.

    As someone else pointed out upthread, this fansite would be far too boring to be worth a visit if it were filled with nothing but people raving about how perfect GoT is. I come here for spirited, insightful analysis and discussion, preferably spiced with humor — not for ga-ga uncritical Thronesmania.

  321. Firannion,

    I should have added: Regardless of what some would argue in favor of ‘pure art,’ no artwork truly exists in a vacuum. It always functions in a context, and that’s how the audience apprehends it.

    Of course, the very best art can transcend its context to some extent, as in Shakespeare being ‘not of an age, but for all time.’ But even the Bard wrote a few plays that were clunkers, relatively speaking; and even his best works have infelicitous lines. (And it’s damned hard to stage ‘Merchant of Venice’ or ‘Taming of the Shrew’ in this day and age, on account of views of Jews and women having changed so radically.) There is no disrespect implicit in discussing these shortcomings.

    Neither D & D or GRRM is a Shakespeare, in any case. Saying what we like or don’t like about their work makes us informed and engaged fans, not non-fans.

    ::rant over::

  322. Well excited after seeing this trailer, so much happening in it. I wonder if another one will follow it, just before the show starts? Not much about Daenerys in this one, but I feel this will be a crucial series for her, and whether or not she makes it. I really want to see her show some true humane qualities, during her conquest. She does have them, but is sometimes too quick to meet fire with fire. It has never been easy for her, having no family about her, but I would love to see her surprise people, by actually showing some humanity when its called for.

    One of my other favourites is Jaime and having seen the trailer I fear for him. I would love to see him break away from his sister. Would it be too much to hope for another scene between him and Brienne? If he has to go, I hope he goes in a way which is befitting the character he has become. More than any other character he has real layers to him, and if he has to die, let it be a worthy death.

  323. Firannion,

    This.

    Lord Parramandas,

    Seriously, is anyone of you even capable of enjoying this show without bringing up these freaking books? I will say this… apart from Dee, almost everyone here lacks the vibe and attitude a fan should possess in my eyes. You completely lack the passion, the enthusiasm and all I see these days is constant complaining, speaking negatively of the characters and comparison to the books now that the show is way over the books. I’m really waiting for the season start so I can finally move on to Unsullied threads and leave these damn books behind.

    Lets see, almost 500 comments in two posts, and both filled with people discussing all aspects of this world, disagreeing at times but seemingly very interested in this show. Nope, no passion, no enthusiasm, no vibe at all…….

    This post was mostly interesting, till now. I sympathized with you about being tossed out of another group. But now, if this is how you act, maybe not so much.

  324. ash,

    Well, I really do not understand why I felt comfortable here last year but this year, I get annoyed almost every time I get here. I remember when S6 ended, the vibe immediately became different for me. And it happens all the time I come here this year. If this is not a sign that something is different…

  325. Lord Parramandas,

    Things are probably different because we have been waiting so much longer for the next season than we ever had, not to mention the leaks that people who know about them are kinda freaking out, vague sometimes trolling interviews from the cast etc.
    Once the season actually starts, people are gonna be so hyped and enthusiastically discuss the content of the episodes. I think all of us are just a bit angsty waiting for it with impatience.
    Book readers will always compare the show to the books, it happens in every adaption. Certain things that happen in the show, people will question if it’s from GRRM or D&D creation and because everyone knows it will be a long time before the next book is out so people are gonna theorize the hell out of it and sometimes there are gonna be disagreements about it and from what I’ve seen, it hasn’t been toxic at all unlike other forums for GOT and other shows, games etc trust me it can get pretty toxic like damn.

  326. Lord Parramandas,

    Things are different because you started to become a fan of the character ( i believe you said you became fan of sansa only while watching season 6) who is mostly hated and divisive ..
    I can relate to that

    Have to say sansa won’t be getting half the hate if not for Sophie and D&D

  327. dragonbringer,

    But that’s the stuff… I don’t remember Sansa being hated here, not in a way she is these days. And comments that still bother me is when someone says Sansa has been victimized in S5 and still hasn’t grown… she did. She’s very hardened now with a lot of internal strength. That’s a value I always admire and I still don’t see a reason why her character would be hated considering there are characters who did worse and Sansa was definitely not an antagonist in S6. Sure she has her own flaws but I always liked Sansa and admired her character growth and in S6 she became my favorite character.

  328. Mel,

    It doesn’t bother me that things get compared to the books (although I never do)… it seems to me people are sacrificing their enjoyment for the sake of the books.

  329. Firannion: I don’t want to belabor this too long, but exclusionary statements about what qualifies a person to be a ‘true fan’ really get my goat.I utterly and categorically reject any definition of fandom that requires people to leave their critical faculties at the door.

    I can tell you only this: I once believed this… that a fansite cannot work on positivity alone. But I was proven wrong… and I’m still getting proven wrong every single day. And no, it’s not “fanboying” like you might imagine it… it’s a lot deeper than that. There was no word from my side about not being critical… it was about the fan vibe which in my opinion this site lacks this year, or gives more attention to criticism than appreciation. Whether you wouldn’t like that kind of a fansite, or you never encountered that kind of fansite, I really don’t care… but I do know it is possible.

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