This morning on ITV’s Lorraine, Iain Glen showed up with Ruth Wilson to promote their new BBC drama Mrs. Wilson, based on the remarkable real life story of Wilson’s own family, but Game of Thrones had to come up, and it did, with the Scottish actor proclaiming yet again that season eight’s six final episodes will be particularly long.
Though most of the segment pertains to Mrs. Wilson (and it’s well worth a look), in the last seconds the actors discuss their upcoming projects, including Game of Thrones:
“I don’t know how I [survived this long]; I got every disease known to [man],” the actor first jokes at poor Jorah’s expense, before getting down to brass tacks: “April is when it’s all coming out, and they’re all feature-length episodes. Six of them. [Like] six movies.”
This isn’t the first time Glen makes such claims, though HBO had previously denied them, according to EW. What are we to make of these confusing contradictions, then? Perhaps that what constitutes a “feature” is pretty subjective: depending on who you ask, every Game of Thrones episode ever aired is feature-length, or none of them are.
Will we get six two-hour films as a final season? Of course not. We can forget about that. However, will all the episodes easily pass the one-hour mark, for the first time ever? Season eight director David Nutter seems to think so, and he would know; and showrunners David Benioff & Dan Weiss originally planned to air the final season as three proper theatrical films, which equates to six one-hour-plus episodes quite well.
Also, as I have pointed out before, season seven was shorter too, and its remaining seven episodes were six minutes longer in average, with the longest of them running for an hour and twenty minutes. Meanwhile, season eight will only give us six final episodes, and yet production lasted for almost twice as long as usual. You do the math!
Hodor!
In April we all be saying ”HODOR”.lol
I really hope all over them over 1 hour.
In the eternal wait for S8 while I was watching over shows, whenever I reach episode 6 of that season, I tend to reflect on what it would be like to have that as my S8 and it’s usually depressing. But then you remember most TV shows the eps rarely go past 50 mins let alone 1 hour, I feel like this would go a long way indeed in making them feel longer than 6 episodes.
Actors don’t know much about what will be done in post production. I wouldn’t put much stock in what he is saying.
Actors, especially actors in long-running series, are pretty good at judging running-times, among other things, from the scripts they read. Not all scripts are consistent in how many minutes a script page results in, but within a single project by the same writers, they usually are pretty consistent (action scenes are usually shorter on the page, but actors know that too). Also, David Nutter has said similar things, and he’s a director.
Mmmm interesting. But actors aren’t involved in the post-production process (apart from redoing dialogue), so I don’t think we need to take their words too serious about this. Maybe because shooting took so long, they feel like the episodes will be feature length.
And per the EW article shooting took longer because they took more time to shoot the scenes and not because they shot more scenes.
The scripts themselves have been described as longer, as feature-length.
But… they did. If Nutter is right (and he would know; directors are involved in the editing process, as well as having a more bird’s-eye view of the whole thing in general), they will all be over an hour, which is well above the GoT average, which means more or longer scenes per episode.
So it’s both, really. Yes, they took longer to film scenes, or else season eight would run for 16 hours, almost double the length of an average season. That’s obviously nonsense. The production schedule is mostly because of the massive battles and setpieces and having all of those characters together, but it also allowed for longer episodss.
Luka Nieto,
still as an actor he won’t know how many of those scenes will be cut or condensed. this is the final season. there’s going to be a lot of last minute decisions to make sure everything is perfect. including the pacing. a lot of stuff must also have shot “just in case”.
Believe me, that applies to any season. Scenes are cut and shortened every season. If the scripts are truly noticeably longer, so will the final episodes.
Luka Nieto,
True, obviously the episodes will be longer. I think season 8 will follow season 7 in that most episodes will be about 60-70 minutes with a decent chance that the final will be 2 hours. So season 8 will be about the same length as season 7 but with less episodes.
But I don’t think all episodes will be feature length (90 to 120 minutes). And David Nutter only said they’ll be longer. Which I believe, but he never mentioned feature length.
Sounds about right, yeah.
Though that’s a common and perfectly acceptable definition, it’s not as locked-in as you may think. The Academy defines anything above 40 minutes as a feature, if you can believe it. But I agree with you, in essence: no, most of the episodes won’t be one hour and a half or longer. But a few of them could be about 90 minutes.
Not explicitly, but he did say he thinks they will all be over an hour long, which as explained can be considered feature-length.
Im sure Ian is guessing a bit, but it backs up what was previously said by David Nutter.
This isn’t that complicated. If the director says that the episodes will be over an hour, I’d be inclined to believe him.
I’m calling/guessing/praying for 75 minutes per episode with the last episode being at least 90 minutes. Obviously longer would be better but that would satisfy me.
Exactly what part of “some members of the cast and one of the directors have said these episodes will be longer than 1h/ feature length” are people not understanding? 🤦🏼♂️😛
Apollo,
I’m mystified by the resistence to it, too. Maybe they don’t want to get their hopes up only to be disappointed later? But it’s not like anyone in the cast or crew or us are saying something ridiculous like the episodes being 2h long.
Well we’re obviously not gonna get that and I’ll be pretty damn pissed if we do. 🙂
*stares in abject adoration*
Huh? What? Oh….um yes, the series. Well, Iain, as most actors across the pond who have been in what we call ‘television’ series, usually make episodes longer than our Canadian/US standard ‘one hour with 500 commercials throughout.’ So although they are considered series (say Jack Taylor), they have far less episodes but are almost always past the one hour mark, or at least a solid hour. So I don’t really doubt his claim.
I’m not sure what my point is, but uh…Iain Glen. ❤
Pigeon,
Right there with you 😛
Game of Thrones fans will argue about anything.
Iain Glen: The six episodes will all be longer than usual.
Lots of Corroborating Evidence: Yes, that’s right.
Fans: How would anyone involved with the show even know? I call bullshit!
Me: %-/
Patrick Sponaugle,
Rabble! Rabble rabble!
*gets out the firehose*
Pigeon,
So true!
This wait has been hard on all of us. I still can’t believe we still have months left to go 🙁
BeardedOnion,
5 months is nothing at this point 😉 And we’ll be knee-deep in endless promotion much earlier than that, in just a few months!
So, maybe 6-9 hours then?
They have lots of footage. I hope the time is not majority made up of darkness and zombies and death. Well, yes, some death is expected as death and GOT go together like a horse and carriage.
If the season’s story is to be – Jon & Daenerys arrive at WF, charm sulky Sansa, then fight the dead at WF, then fight the dead in KL, then kill Cersei and then get their crowns, then start a family. Do they really need that much time? I hope D&D have some additional dramatic development and surprises for us.
I’m hoping that the first five are going to be 75-90 minutes long with the finale being 95 to 120 minutes long. Yup, I’m going all in with my hopes and dreams.
Oh, I also want…
– Arya and Gendry to get it on.
– Gendry to get legitimized.
– Arya and Gendry to get married.
– Gendry to live.
– Arya to live.
Yup, ALL IN with those hopes and dreams!
Game of Thrones fans will argue about anything.
No, we won’t!
😉
JenniferH,
I had assumed they brought Gendry back because of fan service but I suppose he will take the role of a future love partner to Arya. I would be surprised to see any physical stuff beyond a kiss. Even that would be a lot.
I was told in this forum by someone that seemed to be quite keen on his story that Gendry will be making magic weapons. I was very surprised to hear that. So maybe he will display additional talents beyond cross country icy marathon running.
The hype is strong.
Apollo,
we’re going on about the difference between over an hour and feature length. the point is I just want as many minutes of it as possible and I don’t want to get used to the idea of 2 hour episodes (forget about official terms this is what I get from “feature length”) only to see 72 minutes on the episode description.
dragonreborn,
Well that’s simply an issue of your overestimating the episode length. They’ll be longer-it’s as simple as that. Which has always been obvious when you factor in the shooting schedules. Trying to figure out how long episode X,Y,Z might be is pretty pointless, I never did get what anyone does this. Let’s just wait and see when it airs and enjoy it for what it will be- not how long we’ve predicted it’ll be.
It doesn’t matter, how long the episodes are – it matters, how long each feels :o)
Has anyone seen the new HBO commercial for upcoming shows? I swear I saw a new shot of Beric Dondarion climbing the Wall? Very quick shot though. Has anyone else seen this?
I’d agree with that. “The Dragon and the Wolf” felt like an enjoyably long episode at 80 minutes. When we’re used to episodes in the 50’s with an occasional one slightly over 60 it was really nice to get a couple noticeably longer. Even if the S8 episodes average ‘just’ around 70-75 minutes with a considerably longer finale I’ll be pleased. Longer would be icing. 🙂
You are so right ….what matters how long they will feel.
D&D will need to use the Lannister kids (Cersei, NCW and Tyrion) very heavily if the episodes are not to feel more painful as they get longer. Mel, Davos, Hound, Varys, Bronn, Ian are also very watchable. Brienne, Arya, Kit are next on my list. Yes, the cast is solid but not equally so.
Since this is a tv show, I would use the minimum film length, not the average. The Screen Actors Guild sets the minimum at 80 minutes. The recap, credits, and advertisements use up 10 minutes. Kit said they’re “not sure whether they will run for 70 minutes or even 90 minutes.” So, referencing 120 minutes is borderline histrionic.
After S6, D&D said they didn’t have enough material for 20 episodes, but they had enough for 13 episodes.
If (avg(season)=555min), then (2 x 555)=1110min=18.5hrs
(555/10epi)=55.5min/epi
(13epi x 55.5min)=721 min=12hrs
S7=7epi=440min=7.3hrs
(80min x 6epi)=480min=8hrs
(440+480)=920min=15.3hrs
How ya like them maths?
Pigeon,
I’m going out on a tinfoil limb and speculating that I.G.’s comments mean Ser Jorah survives to the end. Second to last scene of Episode 6: Jorah drags himself to his feet, stands tall, looks into the camera, and with that luscious voice proclaims:
“Yet here I stand.”
———
Oh Lord, please, no Gendry x Arya coupling.
During the prelude to the wight hunt, he didn’t ask about Arya and didn’t mention her once – even while with her brother and even though she had saved his life more than once.
No, I got the sense from Gendry’s melodramatic and redundant recounting (Sandor: “you mean whinging”) of his experience with Melisandre, that Gendry is gonna slow roast that red witch over his blacksmith’s forge like a Thanksgiving turkey.
Gendry: “Hey, I looked into the flames and the Lord of Light told me to make you extra crispy.”
#AvengeCousinShireen
#BurnMelBurn
I think Gendry is only there to forge arrows (or balista bolts) from Valyrian steel.
They will use Heartsbane as a source.
On episode length
if we get 6 X 50min episodes people are going to be seriously disappointed!
https://i.imgur.com/m72pSul_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
I’m expecting the shorter episodes to be around the hour mark and the longer one around 80 minutes (episodes 3 and 5 would be my guess).
Apollo,
I’m not trying to estimate anything. My point was about weather to take Ian Glen as a reliable source for episode length or not.
First of all, it would be amazing if Ruth Wilson will be in the prequels. She’s one of the finest actress alive. Her role in Luther and the affair is just astonishing, especially in the affair.
Second their first plan was 3 movies. Based on what kind of show got is and what kind of pacing is needed we can assume that would have been 3 movies between 2.5 and 3 hours. So I think the final will be around 8hours long.
With an average of 80 minutes. I think we can assume one episode be between 90 and 120 minutes maybe 2. But total I think it will be around 8hours.
Wasn’t there an actor that said they could have made 10 episodes out of it but 6 is better storywise. Was one of the first news of season 8,after script reading if I’m remember right. And if my memory serve me right it was the actor of podrick Payne.
This would mean at least 450 minutes of story which is consistent with around an 8 hour season.
Originally there was a line with Gendry mentioning Arya to Jon when he left to do his marathon run which is pretty obvious given his backstory with Arya. He told Jon he wouldn’t leave him. The line cut was something like “I won’t leave you like I left Arya.”
That makes it clear that D&D intentionally decided to not have Gendry talk to Jon about Arya for a reason. Also the fact that the Hound, Lord Beric and Thoros who *also* know Arya and spent plenty of time with her (especially the Hound) didn’t mention her to Jon makes it EVEN more clear that D&D intentionally did not want it mentioned to Jon. Why? Because if one of them mentioned it then her relationship with Gendry would have to come up. Why wouldn’t they want that to come up? Because they are saving it for their reunion for a bigger resonance all-around (same with the Hound).
And it does make perfect sense that Gendry, the Hound, Beric and Thoros didn’t mention Arya to Jon. They all thought she was dead; why would they mention his favorite, dead sister to him on this super-important deadly mission where tensions are high when all four of them feel responsible (to varying degrees) for her death? Especially when they are all seeking redemption to a degree. Of course, they wouldn’t.
Finally, for those who haven’t read the books–which I know you, Ten Bears, haven’t–Arya and Gendry have *the most foreshadowing* of any potential pairing than any one else for a romantic future in the books. They have a love song written for them. There is jealousy, there is protection on both sides, there is sacrifice, there is intimacy, there is understanding, there is affection, there is attraction. The set-up is there in bright, neon color. Furthermore, on the show, quotes from actors and directors also point to an awareness of a future romantic possibility between the two.
Of any characters not romantically involved at this stage, Arya and Gendry are the most likely by far to get there. Every thing points to it narratively (in the books and on the show) and from the words of actors and directors behind the show. Plus, GRRM has said himself that he’s not done with Arya and Gendry. Of all of my tongue in cheek hopes and dreams for GOT’s final season, Arya and Gendry living and the two becoming a couple are the ones I do actually expect to have a rather very high chance of happening.
JenniferH,
I personally didn’t get a ‘romance’ vibe from Arya and Gendry’s interactions. I read it as more of a big brother, little sister vibe – two lost souls needing family. Now having said that I’m a senior so I have a different view on things or maybe I’m just naive. I also don’t see a Jon/Sansa romance vibe but apparently many others do from what I’ve seen on various blogs . I only saw a brother and sister happy to find each other after hearing of the deaths of several of their family members.
One thing I find kind of interesting in assuming/hoping for episode 6 being super-sized (90 minutes or more) is that there is no way that episode will just serve as an epilogue. I mean.. a 90-minute epilogue? People complained (and still do) about the never-ending endings of LotR, and that epilogue was what.. half an hour? If episode 6 really is to be 90+ minutes, some big sh*t is going down in that episode for sure!
I predict that Gendry will fashion a huge dragon glass spear and Bronn will fire it at Vyserion to take him down. I can almost see Jaime, Bronn, Jon, Dany, Gendry and Tyrion sitting around the table at Winterfell developing their strategy about it.
As I started watching the earlier episodes again, I was thinking about various characters like Gendry and Bronn….and Podrick… trying to
determine the reason why they’re still around, and yes, definitely fan service, I agree, but I also believe they will do something heroic and spectacular. Haven’t yet figured out what the point of Podrick is yet.
kathy,
I have to admit the Jon/Sansa thing is just bizarre to me. It’s one of those theories that picks up steam in the off-season but quickly fizzles into nothing when the actual episodes air.
Not saying it’s impossible either, but I personally think it’s coming from fans who just want this to happen for whatever reason.
SAG, the Screen Actors Guild officially defines “feature-length” as longer than 80 minutes. And as you say, actors and directors are pretty good at judging the screen length of a project judging from the page count of a given script (assuming no cuts of course.) If Nutter and Glen are taken at their word, one would assume that the episodes would average a running time just above eighty minutes.
“Noticeably longer” doesn’t make it “feature length.” I’ll believe it when I see it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if D&D have kept Bronn, Jorah and Pod around longer than in the books purely to have them die in the finale for added emotional drama – I don’t think it’s outright fan service but that may be a factor. I also doubt GRRM has finished in his mind their arcs (unless they die in Winds) and my understanding was he only gave D&D the core characters endings and hadn’t decided what to do with the bit part characters (the Hound being another good example).
Which is the dumbest ship of the series. My opinion is that about 98% of the Jonsa people have Sansa as their favorite character, which is odd to me in the first place. I’m not a Sansa hater but she was way, way down on my list when I read and that didn’t change with the show. Anyway, those fans just want to set her up with the best available living match and that just happens to be Jon. I’ve read one shipper make that exact statement while at the same time trying to stretch every little word into “foreshadowing” of said pairing. None of it is foreshadowing in my opinion. There’s just nobody else left that they can find to ship her with, especially on the show with far fewer ancillary character options. Neither George nor D&D are going to pair them up.
It’s impossible to know what George has planned for him but I’m pretty confident that he’ll come back into the story. Currently I’m assuming it will be when ASNAWP returns to Westeros and she’ll run into him again at the Inn at the Crossroads where he was most recently residing in the books. My opinion is that D&D were told that Gendry will be a part of the books ending, but like the books he had no role to play for a while so they had to shelf (rowboat) him for a while.
Clob,
Yea, foreshadowing in GoT is tricky. Some things are most definitely foreshadowing, while others not so much. Not everything should be taken too literally. You really could make a case for just about any scenario to happen in season 8 based on foreshadowing.
For example, there’s a lot of foreshadowing that says Dany will go mad and there’s a lot of foreshadowing that says she won’t. IMO, it tends to come down to personal preference as far as what people choose to believe.
I don’t get why people always talk about fan service. We don’t know what GRRM had planned for them. And anyway they cannot kill off every secundary character because there wouldn’t be much storyline if only a few main characters would survive until season 8, they need other characters to interact with.
Bronn was needed for Jaime to talk to. Podrick was needed for Brienne. And maybe Gendry will be needed so Arya could talk to someone other than Sansa and Jon. Or maybe there is a bigger plan for Gendry, since he’s the only surviving Baratheon descendent in the show. We just don’t know.
Chilli,
I would agree. The fan service argument comes down to nothing more than personal preference, like most things. The complaints about “fan service” usually come from people who’s preferred ending doesn’t line up with someone else’s preferred ending.
I frequently hear about “Disney endings” and if certain characters settle their differences it’ll equal fan service. Well, based on my time on WOTW and other sites, a rather large portion of the fanbase wants lots of twists and interpersonal squabbling to take up the entire season, so, if that comes to pass couldn’t that be considered fan service as well?
Mr Derp,
Well, when I say fan service, I do not have any dislike or like for that character. I like Gendry a lot. Gendry certainly had a role to play before he went away. He was important to story of Melisandre and Stannis and Renly.
Arya could speak with Hot Pie. She seemed closer to Hot Pie than Gendry and least Hot Pie noted she was pretty. The guy that acted Gendry – I am sure he said there were no romantic overtones in the GOT story because he was 25 and Maisie was only 14 and so it would/could not be done.
Up to S7, Gendry’s return seemed to be pointless fan service because since then he has been used for humor and that ridiculous run back to get help. I am still trying to remember why Davos went to find him. Was Gendry at the Dragon Pit conference? I cannot even remember where the season ended with him. Is he gone north on foot or by boat?
Maybe in S8, he will have an important role. That is certainly possible.
Mango,
Since you don’t know what role he will play in season 8, how can you talk about fan service? The actor who played Gendry knew from the beginning he would return to the show, even before it was known people liked him. And we still don’t know what GRRM has planned for him. Maybe D&D will also follow what GRRM has planned for him. If he indeed has an unimported role in season 8, you can talk about fan service, but now we just don’t know.
Btw, they also need characters we like, to be killed by Wights and White Walkers in season 8. If no-one important dies, what’s so scary about the white walkers?
We just need enough characters we like, to have an interesting storyline.
Arya never had the same bond with Hot Pie like she did with Gendry. I love Hot Pie, but he cannot replace Gendry. I really do believe something important is planned for him, even if we don’t see it yet. Maybe I’ll change my opinion after season 8, but right now we are only guessing.
As for if fan service exists…David Nutter said they paid attention to fan feedback…didn’t he?
I am sure they also did for the earlier seasons.
And yes, I also think they also muck about on the internet and spread false stories, confusing arguments and deflections from their final season’s intended ending. The security is both offensive and defensive; soft and hard.
Definitely not out of the realm of possibility, but I think you’re giving too much credit to random people online trying to guess the endgame. I really don’t think D&D care what random people on the internet think. I don’t believe they would waste time and resources on it either, but I certainly could be wrong.
And I wasn’t referring to you specifically in my post about fan service. It was more of a general feeling among the fandom. I think words and phrases like “fan service”, “Disney endings”, “Mary Sue”, etc… all get overused and misused to the point where they tend to lose all meaning for me.
Chilli,
I agree. He may have something important to do in S8.
For me his presence in S7 was a bit a waste of space. However, to get him into Season 8 he had to reappear in S7 and join the group heading north.
I think Hot Pie is wonderful! I hope he survives the series.
Mango,
And did David Nutter say it was about Gendry?
I think he talked about the bittersweet ending. If it was only bitter, people would be depressed. They also need something sweet, something that gives hope: A dream of spring. Who knows Gendry will be ‘the hope’.
Mango,
I wrote my reply before I read yours. I agree with your last reply. I think they just didn’t find the right way to write him back in.
Mr Derp,
Fair enough.
I don’t believe Gendry was at the Dragonpit conference. Though, on a personal note, it wouldve been kind of cool to see Cersei’s reaction if she ever found out that one of Robert’s bastards was still alive and well.
I think he’s on S.S. Boatsex heading towards Winterfell with the rest of them, but not sure about that either.
My only real problem with Gendry’s S7 was his haircut. That was about as jarring as if Mel had given Jon a buzzcut during her beauty shop resurrection. Everything that was “wrong” about Gendry’s scenes was fueled by that hairdo. 😛
Clob,
I didn’t like the haircut either. If fan service means a better haircut for Gendry, I don’t have any objections at all.
“Feature length”: Dumbo was “feature length” and clocked in at 64 min.** Just sayin’ … ***
——-
** Today, there would be an extra 12 minutes of end credits. There’s a “live action” remake in the works; just watch how long the credits for that will be!
*** When did I become so obsessed with footnoting simple posts?!? I need to try to write better.
JenniferH,
As a “pre-books”, show-only fan, I can’t question what you wrote. My only two additional comments are:
(1) As lovely as it was, considering that Jon & Arya had only one brief ~ 3 minute scene together back in S1e2 – and in S7e5 Jon inexplicably stated “I thought Arya was dead”, whereas Arya and Sandor were together from mid-Season 3 through the end of Season 4 (and the Hound was conspicuously name-dropped during Arya’s Game of Faces Braavos scenes with Jaqen 2.0 in S5 and the Waif in S6, and Arya was name-dropped by Brienne & Sandor in S7e7)….
I am much more intrigued by Arya & Sandor meeting again than I am about Arya & Jon. I assume the books! relationship between Arya and Jon was much more developed.
(2) I was with you on Gendry ❤️ Arya … until Season 1-3 stoic, loyal Gendry turned into S7 buzzcut whinging Gendry. To me at least, his personality changed completely. At Harrenhal he bravely endured rat bucket torture. In S7, it was as if he was on crystal meth, and wouldn’t stop complaining about the Brotherhood, the Lannisters, Melisandre, and Stannis.
Mango,
Speaking of Davos, perhaps the thing that perplexes me the most is the end game for the Lord of Light story. I have to be on Davos’ side after the most shocking scene of the series with poor Shireen being burned alive. But then in the next breath, Mel and the Lord of Light saved Jon. I have to think TLOL has something to do with the end game, but perhaps it all comes down to the only true god is Arya’s god of death. Davos seemed to make things worse with doubting Mel, but then came Shireen, and I can’t get past that. I really have a hard time speculating about TLOL for the end game. I do have an idea that some episodes will be 70 to 80 minutes. I really doubt any will be over 90, but perhaps we will get a couple closer to 70 or 80.
Tron79,
I do not know what to think when it comes to these god theories. I am as interested as you are about how it plays out in the story. We might not get any clarity though.
Davos, Varys, Mel, Hound, Beric, Jon all have had some contact with the “Light” and/or voices in the fire. The best I can say about the Lord of the Light is that both terrible and wonderful things seem to come from the same source. From the gods of death, only terrible so far. Mel should return and her fireworks may be useful against the dead?. It would seem to be that the fire dragons would be more effective here.
I hope Davos is around at the end.
Joe Dempsie, the actor who plays Gendry, said that about Arya/Gendry prior to season 07/08 because of the age difference. He has since addressed that and made it very clear that he wasn’t comfortable answering questions about Arya/Gendry romantically because at the time Maisie Williams was 14 and he was a 25-year old man. However, that’s not the issue since she’s a grown woman now. He’s pretty much said that at cons.
Dempsie is also quoted as saying in an interview, “I think one of the roles Gendry played in Arya’s story was as him being an older guy who sort of awakens certain feelings in Arya for the first time as she’s becoming a young woman.”
He did acknowledge that the brother/sister aspect that others see, however…
“Whether that means Gendry has a place in Arya’s heart or vice versa, I have no idea. I think there’s almost a sibling element, too. At that point in the story, Gendry really reminded her of her brothers and of home. That was the comfort with him. But it could go a number of ways. It would just be nice if they met again, wouldn’t it?”
There are two key things in that comment. 1) At that point in the story, Dempsie is saying that Gendry reminded her of his brothers and of his home… and this is in addition to that awakening of her womanhood which he also mentioned. 2) He also said that it could go a number of ways, which leads to the possibility of, yes, a romance.
It should be noted that these are quotes are from *after* he’d read the season 08 scripts so he was being careful about spoilers, but just the fact that he even entertained the possibility of a romance is pretty telling, in my opinion.
Another thing you mentioned is that she’s closer to Hot Pie… no, she’s not. Gendry is the one she tells the truth of who she is when he figures out she’s a girl. Gendry is the one who keeps her secret. Gendry is the one she protects. Gendry is the one she spends time with (even if it’s just one scene, we still see that bit there) at Harrenhal. Gendry is the one she exchanges looks with when the prisoners are being tortured in worry over the other being taken. Gendry is the one who she’s heartbroken over when he decides to stay with the Brotherhood, but she has very little reaction to Hot Pie staying behind at the inn.
Considering what Melisandre and Stannis did to Gendry, I don’t blame him at all.
– Gendry was a virgin, Melisandre took advantage of him. In a matter of a few minutes, she had him tied to a bed, turned his pleasure to horror.
– His uncle and a couple of strangers walked in on him tied to the bed, completely naked and vulnerable wherein leeches were placed on penis.
– His world was completely upended for the second time in a matter of hours. This time for the worse–after he had previously been told he was a King’s son and would be living a comfortable life of wealth and importance for the first time ever.
– Then he was thrown into a cell and told he was going to be burned at the stake the next morning.
The only reason he was alive was because Davos saved him. And this all happened because he trusted Lord Beric and Thoros. He CHOSE them. For the first time, he chose to follow someone and they literally sold him to his death. And by doing so, he turned his back on Arya, the very first person, who happened to be the ONLY person, who he had ever connected with in his entire life. The only one who had trusted him and he could trust back.
On top of that, he believed that the person he trusted, whom he now felt that had betrayed by not running away with her that night as she wanted was dead. He probably blames himself for it. Now he’s fighting for, serving her brother–albeit a different brother/KitN, finally doing what she wanted him to do before he made his choice years ago. So of course he’s confronting the people who are the ones he chose instead of her. That bitterness and rage had been swelling up in him for years and here they are, still alive, still around and not showing an ounce of remorse for his pain, for his suffering, for what he went through and for what he believes is the loss of Arya’s life.
Yeah, maybe that wasn’t the intention of what D&D meant, but I certainly got it, and felt it because of the background of all of the characters involved…
Because of that line to Jon and how he said the line to Jon, with pain, regret and guilt in his voice…
Because Jon is the King of the North now and Gendry is serving him just as Robb once was when Arya told Gendry that he could serve Robb then…
Because of the scene with Gendry and Arya in that cave…
Because Gendry chose Beric and Thoros and the Brotherhood, and they betrayed him…
Because Gendry was a young man, still innocent in many ways, vulnerable and he was used and abused, discarded and thrown in a cell to be burnt alive by Melisandre and Stannis on Dragonstone…
Because Gendry knew that the Brotherhood were taking Arya to Robb and he knew that Robb and everyone surrounded him were killed shortly after the Brotherhood and Arya were headed that way so he must believe that Arya is dead…
It all ties together, and when you look at it all, I could understand why Gendry was complaining. I also found the fact that when push came to shove, he stopped complaining and did what he had to do and got the message through to save them. (It’s probably not a surprise that Gendry is my 4th favorite character on the show and in the books, LOL! I just really love him.)
(He can also swing a mighty warhammer which would make him a fine complement to Arya on the battlefield!)
Roz’s Ghost, Pod forces Brienne to accept her Ladyhood.
JenniferH,
You have given Gendry much more thought than I have.
I am not sure where we disagree or even if we disagree. In S8, these two could meet again as adults and start up a romantic attachment.
For me, their GOT relationship so far seems consistent with a friendship between an older teenager and a female child. Gendry figuring out that she is a girl and her sharing her secret was consistent with his maturity compared to Hot Pie. At the time of her meeting Gendry, Arya was a pre-puberty child. (Sansa was in puberty but not fully a woman yet when Ned died.) Arya may have had a child’s crush on Gendry. He liked her too but I do not think GOT spent a lot of time on that. As for a love story…I suppose teenage/child crush stuff is the best one could get out of their GOT interactions to date. The book and the show are different on how children/sexuality are handled.
Listen, I have no objections to a happy love connection between them in S8.
And I also hope for better hair for Gendry.
JenniferH,
I believe it was at the most recent Con of Thrones that Joe Dempsie was asked about the whole Arya-Gendry thing (again), and he did admit that it is “much more appropriate now.” Furthermore, in the 3×05 commentary, Bryan Cogman said that he believes Arya loves him whether she knows it or not.
Having said that, I’m not getting my hopes up. I’m not saying I wouldn’t like them together (I would!), I just don’t feel like that’s where Arya’s story is heading. She’s done a lot of dark things, so I feel like marriage to Gendry would seem rather out of place even though there is ample foreshadowing for it. Of course, I am very happy to be wrong about that. 🙂
Mango,
I think it’s very possible that Davos will still be around at the end. Perhaps he will ask Missandei from the island of Naath out once the war is over. He had a nice conversation with her on Dragonstone. She could be around too, but I don’t have much hope for Grey Worm.
Yeah, I watched that con with Joe (garsh, he’s so charming and hilarious), that’s the one I was thinking of especially. But he’s also given a couple of other interviews that pointed to things turning towards Arya/Gendry.
As for Arya, I dunno, I just don’t see this “darkness” that so many others seem to when it comes to her. Yeah, yeah, the Frey pie thing, but honestly, come on… Sansa stood there and watched dogs start to eat a man alive while he screamed in agony and then walked away with a smile on her face. That was pretty freaking dark. Understandable, but same as Arya’s actions were understandable. She saw the aftermath of what those men did. She saw her brother’s direwolf’s head stuck on her brother’s body, she heard the Freys laughing and enjoying the slaughter of family, kin and bannermen. What she did at the start of season 07 wasn’t some cold-blooded, mindless vengeance that she’d heard about. Arya was there and witnessed not just the aftermath, but saw part of it still taking place as an impressionable child still.
And with all she’s been through, Arya has NEVER intentionally killed anyone who did not unjustly target/kill/hurt someone that she loved, cared about, considered family. She’s not some dark, twisted, lost soulless person. She fits in with this time period, these situations… they’ve all done some twisted, awful, terrible things (Dany having her dragons burn people, etc. to name another one.) Arya just happens to be younger and yet more bad-ass than most of the other characters and able to do it on her own, following through with the Northern and Stark brand of justice.
When she had the option of going after Cersei and completing her list or returning home once she found out Jon, and the Starks had retaken Winterfell, she went home. Everything she did once home was in the name of protecting her family, protecting Jon, protecting Wintefell.
As for Gendry and Arya, lest we forget, the second scene of Gendry’s upon his return was him pulling his mighty warhammer out and bashing a Lannister’s skull in. He’s not immune to violence. I don’t think he’d have a problem with how Arya handles things.
Lastly, you know, there is just so much foundation in the books and on the show pointing to Arya and Gendry as a potential pair. So, so, so much. And honestly, the fact that they didn’t have Gendry mention Arya to Jon (and even cut a line about her) is even more telling in my opinion. If it wasn’t supposed to be some *thing* they wouldn’t be saving it for the final season. It matters; it’s leading to something because it *is* some thing!
JenniferH,
Jennifer: Well summarised points about Gendry. Even I took a while to come round to Arya-Gendry because it seemed…too good to be true. But mounting evidence has changed my mind. For instance, I recently learned that Tobho Mott’s house had ebony and weirwood doors. Black and white, like a certain building where Arya also learned a few things!
“1) At that point in the story, Dempsie is saying that Gendry reminded her of his brothers and of his home… and this is in addition to that awakening of her womanhood which he also mentioned.”
Throughout the books, Arya compares men to Jon and Jon definitely compares women to Arya. And of course they were originally supposed to have romance (an idea which mercifully GRRM jettisoned). So for book Arya brothers and romance are somewhat associated. Also, you may have missed a discussion many months back where Ten Bears complained about Gendry because he pitched the Robert-Ned friendship to Jon rather than his own longer, deeper friendship with Arya. A poster named Cliohna commented that in Season 7 D&D gave a subtle reminder that the Gendry-Arya connection remained. It was that Gendry echoed things he had heard Arya say in Season 3 when Melisandre took him. Talking to Beric and Thoros in “Beyond the Wall”, Gendry said: “You sold me to a witch.” “I wanted to be one of you. “I wanted to join the Brotherhood.” Coincidence? I doubt it. By the way, several YouTubers posit Arya+Gendry. Bridge4 is especially sold on the theory.
Tron79,
I laughed aloud at that!
Davos would be very brave to seek such a beautiful and young lady! He is a bit older, no? Yes, he did seem rather keen on making friends with her. I thought it was a part of his diplomatic duties to make friends with his counterparts – Missy and Tyrion. And Missy seemed more malleable than Tyrion.
In the book, he does a wife. I do not know if GOT has mentioned a wife for Davos. You know that would be a lovely way to end Davos’ story this if Grey Worm dies. He goes for a smart, pretty girl….
Ha!
So we have:
Arya-Gendry
Sansa-Tyrion/Jon
Brienne-Jaime
Missy-Davos/GreyWorm
Daenerys-Jon
Cersei-Euron
Geez, we are going get Peyton Place in S8. Where will they have time for war with all the lovers? So Pod, Theon, Bronn, Robin, Tormund, Hound will have to fight twice as hard.
Tron79,
I’ve been starting to wonder if the Lord of Light is like “Q” from Star Trek: The Next Generation: an omnipotent jester who gets his jollies tormenting and deceiving – but then aiding and saving humanity.
JenniferH,
Why would Gendry think Arya was dead? For all he knew, the Brotherhood was planning to sell her to her family for ransom. He didn’t mourn her, ask about her, or express regrets for not trusting her instincts or guilt over failing to choose to stay with her instead of joining the Brotherhood “family.” He showed no interest in her fate after their abrupt separation.
I’m NOT disputing what you’re saying. I just did not get any sense that Gendry thought Arya was dead.
Ooh, I didn’t know that about Tobho’s doors. That’s soo cool! You’re right about Jon and Arya and, yes, thankfully, he dropped that but you can definitely see the remnants of that. Also, in the books, in the Brienne chapters where we see Gendry, he sees Arya everywhere and Willow is very reminiscent of Arya too. And her loss hit him really hard and changed him big-time.
Yeah, I’ve watched bridge4 videos. I’ve thought of compiling a full list of all the stuff in the books and series myself because there really is so much that I haven’t even seen in one place and so many people just aren’t aware of how much there is foreshadowing and in place for Arya and Gendry.
He thinks she’s dead because the Brotherhood was planning to ransom her to Robb and everyone heard about what happened at the Red Wedding. Everyone thinks that Arya Stark is dead. Sansa did, everyone at Winterfell did until Arya showed up. Jon did until he got the letter. The Hound did until Brienne told him. Even in the lower streets of King’s Landing they would have heard about the Red Wedding and Gendry would have been listening for word of the Starks because of Arya.
Of course he would think she was dead, what other conclusion would he come to? It’s the same conclusion that every other person who knows her came to… that she’s dead. And it’s the only logical reason why NO ONE mentioned her to Jon, because they all didn’t want to add even more tension to the situation even more. They all knew how close Jon and Arya were and all felt guilt over Arya to some degree. They all believed she was dead. We know that the Hound did per his discussion with Brienne. So of course they aren’t going to say, ‘Hey, your Grace, we knew your favorite sister, but let her slip through our fingers/were going to ransom her/didn’t go with her and now she’s dead, so anyway…. let’s carry on with the mission!’
As for not mourning her… based on that one line and how he said it Jon (“I’m not leaving you”), I don’t know that we can’t say he didn’t mourn her. Plus, it’s been years. We don’t know how Gendry reacted, didn’t react to the news of the Red Wedding when he likely believed that Arya died.
Mango,
Yeah, you have that age difference thing, but there may not be that many people left on the planet at the end, so age may not matter! Davos was definitely flirting with her a few times during the Dragonstone episode. And yes, he does have a wife somewhere, but after the war with the dead, my guess is her city wherever it is won’t make it. Hopefully there will still be some fermented crab left somewhere to help Davos.
Ten Bears,
Well, Q was definitely all powerful, but I can’t see Q allowing Shireen to burn unless he brought her back to life later after the humans learned a lesson. Maybe the TLOL will do the same. Man, just thinking about Shireen really gets to me. That’s the hardest scene for me and I’m sure others.
Ten Bears,
I loved Q!
But Tron had a point, the Lord of Light seems to have been really mean to Shireen. Q was a mischief maker.
Both Missy and Davos are adults – the age/maturity difference is not a big issue. (Unlike Gendry and Arya!) Except for any possible need for fermented crab. Though, Davos must have more to offer than Grey Worm had when Worm managed to bed Missy.
My Many-Faced-God I’m Dreaming of Spring…
P.S. I’m really proud of getting in there with the first comment for this post! The advantage of being in Europe 🙂
Aw, a surprise drop in by my favourite character from my favourite franchise, in this, my very-close-second favourite fictional realm. Thanks Ten Bears! I’m on a rewatch of ST:VOY at the moment, but this is making me want to go back to the joys of TNG. Nobody tops Picard.
Knowing they are all going to be over 1 hour (most likely) is great news. The thought of only 6 episodes still upsets me. Last year, it felt like it was over so quickly and yet that was still one episode longer than the next season will be. Knowing they are longer appeases me somewhat, but I still feel quite disappointed.
I enjoyed season 7, but it did feel like it was travelling at rocket speed. I wanted most scenes to go on for longer and I wanted far more intimate character driven scenes than we got. I felt they could have stuck to 10 episodes in season 7 and just developed it more slowly, like they used to in the earlier seasons. I fear that season 8 will suffer from the same breakneck speed. Perhaps, artistically, the tension wrought by a fast-paced season will match the climax of the story well and the franticness of the war with the AOTD. I will keep my fingers crossed.
I imagine a two-hour finale isn’t too unreasonable, but expecting the others to push 90 minutes seems a bit much. Totally my opinion, but I imagine the first 5 will be between 60 and 75 minutes.
I am actually expecting a 2-hour finale, as I wonder whether they will conclude episode 5 with the conclusion to the battle with the NK and the AOTD, then use episode 6 to deal with the battle between what is left of the North/Dany alliance and a battle with Cersei. To give this show the conclusion it deserves and to have a proper ending after all the battles are through, they probably would need two hours to do it justice. Here’s hoping! I’ll be watching at 2am, so I wonder if I will get any sleep that night!
Che,
Unlike other seasons we won’t have many storylines. Most people are in Winterfell or are heading to Winterfell. People north of Winterfell who don’t make it in time to flee will be killed off by the wights/white walkers. There is Cersei, Quiburn and The Mountain in Kingslanding. Bronn might stay there or follow Jaime to Winterfell. And we have the Greyjoy storyline with Euron, Theon and Yara. Last 2 will die or flee to Winterfell. Euron is the only wildcard who might show up everywhere.
That’s only speculation based on the last episode of season 7, no spoilers.
JenniferH,
“He thinks she’s dead because the Brotherhood was planning to ransom her to Robb and everyone heard about what happened at the Red Wedding. Everyone thinks that Arya Stark is dead. Sansa did, everyone at Winterfell did until Arya showed up. Jon did until he got the letter. The Hound did until Brienne told him. Even in the lower streets of King’s Landing they would have heard about the Red Wedding and Gendry would have been listening for word of the Starks because of Arya.”
That is all very convincing. This also explains why nobody who knew her brought her up with Jon. A lot of people are going to be surprised she’s alive and she’ll be surprised a lot of people are alive! And I’d forgotten Gendry in Brienne’s chapters, other than he saved her life. Gendry and Arya also saved each other’s lives. Their bond is one of the healthiest in the story. I truly hope they end up together, and that she remains her unconventional but loving self.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
“A lot of people are going to be surprised she’s alive and she’ll be surprised a lot of people are alive!
——-
…… and moments later a lot of those people are going to be dead.
Because that little tomboy they once knew is now a Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess, with a penchant for bisecting neck arteries and the skills to plan and carry out efficient executions. She may very well turn out to be the best dual blade fighter since Arthur Dayne.
Mel ought to hope Gendry gets to her first. After what happened to MFT with just a pocket knife, if Arya finds out the red witch did in fact hurt Gendry, I’d hate to think what Mel’s geezer corpse is going to look like after Arya’s done carving Mel with that very nice dagger and poking her full of holes with Needle.
In fact, she may very well be the one to take down the Mountain. He’s still on her list. ( So is Cersei, but the Valonqar is going to be strangling her to death.)
I’m trying to think: Has anyone who’s ever tried to hurt Arya or someone she cares about escaped the (future) Queen’s justice?
The North remembers…sometimes. But Arya never forgets.
#ASNAWP
Stark Raven’ Rad,
I am not sure that everyone thought she was dead.
Hot Pie did not think so when he met Pod and Brienne. This was well after the Red Wedding. He was so sure she was alive he sent her some baked goods.
Sansa had reason to hope/expect Arya was alive as Brienne told her she saw her with a man. Good and alive well after the Red Wedding and well after her disappearance from KL. She was not all that shocked when she turned up at the WF gate.
I do not think Gendry was concerned about mentioning the dead to Jon. He went on about Ned who had a public execution for treason. The most natural thing for him to say was I met your father once and your sister was my friend/or your sister saved my life.
Worse, Gendry did not ask Beric or Thoros what happened to her. As her friend, he did not ask? You bet Hot Pie would have asked? He complained about his treatment a lot so he did not forget the parting from the group. But Arya’s fate? Nothing. He did not even accuse them of taking her and getting her killed at the Red Wedding. He did not even ask.
It may just have been bad writing. Or they may be showing really how an older teenager, now a man, would have remembered a child he befriended a long time ago. Maybe he would not really say or think of her very much. (To some it would seem a little creepy.) Or even of Hot Pie or the others. Who knows?
That said, so far GOT has not shown this pair in love (Gendry and Arya). This would not have been a healthy thing. It would make Gendry look like a “groomer” and a budding child molester.
I think in S8, they will become re-acquainted as adults and they could start a love connection if there is time to fit that in. I would still be surprised to see anything beyond a kiss.
Mango,
All I know is that Hot Pie stuck his neck out and put himself at risk after he assessed that the big “lady knight” was someone who could be trusted to be of help to his friend Arya. He also thought enough about her to spend the night baking her wolf bread 2.0 because he remembered how much she liked the first (misshapen) one – Arya’s last words to him had been: “Hey Hot Pie! It’s really good!”
But from Gendry? Nothing. No curiosity, no regret, no sadness, no anger, not even the selfish exploitation of his two years of shared experiences with King Jon’s sister in an attempt to “bond” with him. (Instead, Gendry resorted to: “I saw your father once for five minutes. You’re a lot shorter.” Gee. )
Gendry is a mollycoddle *sorry*, he did nothing to save Arya’s and their fellow’s lifes. Arya made plans, Arya made connections, Arya didn’t loose her head, but Gendry complained, criticized, knew everything “better” – with no effective result.
Perhaps he’s like his father: big, strong, good-looking (as far as he wears his late haircut), charismatic, good in fighting because of his strength, forthright in words and undiplomatic, without political understanding –
Sorry again, in my eyes Gendry could be a good friend to Arya, as Robert was to Ned, but nothing more.
I dislike the idea, Arya and Gendry could be lovers, and I hope from the bottom of my heart that it won’t happen!
The fact that Gendry who spent all that time with Arya — as well as the Hound, and Lord Beric and Thoros, ALL who spent time with Arya — and did NOT mention her to Jon had to have been intentional. And the fact that the two who spent the most time with her, Gendry and the Hound especially, and didn’t mention her to Jon had to have been very, very specific because D&D were saving it for something more meaningful like when the Hound found out from Brienne later about Arya.
I know that D&D aren’t perfect, but there is simply NO LOGICAL explanation, none, zero, zip to explain why Gendry did not mention Arya to Jon unless it is for a bigger build-up come next season. And the fact that there were not one, not two, but three other characters who knew Arya as well makes a strong case that D&D have a plan. That none of them mentioned her to Jon makes it fairly clear that it was intentional that D&D did not want Jon to know that any of them (or specifically Gendry and/or the Hound) knew Arya before the reunions in season 08.
Arya is easily one of the most popular characters on the show; she is also the character that has been kept from other characters more than any other and so her reuniting with those characters is one that viewers have been clamoring for. Therefore, it makes sense (albeit being really annoying at the same time) that D&D would drag out anything to do with those most-anticipated reunions until the final season: Arya and Jon, Arya and Gendry, Arya and the Hound. None of them letting Jon know that they know Arya could and would add to the drama and tension when those reunions take place.
Cute hair, Kit. (I really do want to see this terrible pilot they always mention, hee!)
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1051947/Game-of-Thrones-season-8-spoilers-Jon-Snow-Kit-Harington-fears-unreleased-scenes-HBO/amp
Well, since many here are theorizing who ends up with whom, all throw this onto the pile. Arya kills Cersei and takes her face, Dany perishes and Jon intending to unite the kingdoms marries who he thinks is Cersei but is in fact Arya.
Pigeon,
I hope you’re watching/ can watch Mrs. Wilson, with Ruth… Wilson (cute coincidence) and “your Iain”. I have always liked him and enjoyed his voice, but in this new show I can see how seductive he is.
I have just found out that there’s no coincidence: Ruth Wilson plays her own grandmother. Interesting story!
I am definitely looking to! It isn’t on in Canada, but I may stumble into it somewhere. Thank you! 😊