There’s only a few weeks left of Game of Thrones filming! With the teaser poster revving up everyone’s engines, we’re readier than ever for season 6.
It seems there was filming for Brother Lancel this week. Eugene Simon shared this image on Instagram yesterday, of his very dirty post-filming feet.
Filming continues over in Moneyglass, Northern Ireland, this week as well, based on local sightings. The town that plays home to the Winterfell set saw more action late at night yesterday.
@WatchersOTWall still filming late tonight in moneyglass #winterfell is lit up like a Xmas tree! Love season6 promo poster — Louise Murray (@Louise58841468) November 23, 2015
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Speaking of the new season 6 promo poster, Game of Thrones shared this custom Pop! toy take on the teaser art:
Here’s a new casting call that could be something – or could be nothing and not related to Game of Thrones at all. At this point, we’re just speculating in a big way. We’re roaming into spoiler territory with our speculation.
*Everything below this point carries a spoiler warning!*
This notice was posted yesterday by Extras NI, who handle all the extras casting for Game of Thrones in Northern Ireland. According to the latest posting, Extras NI is searching for a newborn baby boy with brown eyes. The filming date for the child is Thursday, December 17th.
The complete casting call:
Game of Thrones is set to be filming during that same week- we saw casting notices for two northern noblemen a couple weeks ago, with a filming date of December 16th. So the northern storyline at the very least will still be shooting then.
We’re wondering if this baby might be needed for Game of Thrones, since whether this is for television or film isn’t mentioned in the write-up, and more details often are provided in these Extras NI notices. Also the specificity of brown eyes makes us curious. We already know that we’ll be seeing a couple flashbacks in season 6. Those scenes have already been filmed but there’s always the possibility that more footage was needed. And there is a major character with brown eyes whose birth is likely a significant plot point.
Another filming tidbit from our sources: We’ve heard that there is shooting in the throne room this week! The characters involved will be Cersei, Jaime and here’s where it gets interesting- a new Hand of the King. Our source didn’t know who this new Hand is.
And finally, Los Siete Reinos brings us new morsels of info in their summary of the man of the hour- of the month really- Jon Snow! The details also involve Melisandre and more but it all comes back to Jon and his death.
S P O I L E R S
L7R writes that Carice van Houten had little filming time this year, and her scenes were all wrapped up in secrecy. It’s likely that Melisandre was there for Jon’s resurrection and L7R’s sources confirm that Jon’s direwolf Ghost was present as well. (Well, his special effects ball-on-the-stick was.) Reportedly, the Ghost-stick has been used a lot more for season 6 than previous years, which points toward Ghost having a big role next season.
Los Siete Reinos has also heard that the scene with Ned and Lyanna has been filmed, which is in line with the info we heard about the potential Lyanna casting call (“Young Stunner”) pointing toward an August filming date.
Between the teaser poster, and the steady flow of Jon Snow spoilers, it looks like season 6 is going to be all about a man we’re supposed to believe is gone for good.
Eew, weird toes Lancel!
Yeah,
Strong Belwas!!!!!
Lol. Mel having little filming. I wonder why! And a new Hand of the King? Wonder who that will be. And Ghost having a Major Role. Good finally.
Hodor!…damn
Jon Snoooowwwwwwwwwwww <3
Also Mel will die resurrecting Jon?
surely, the hand of the king = kevan.
Oh the hype! It feels so good! This is all getting so very real, we’re a little over 5 months out!
Interesting tidbit about the baby, sounds possible to me.
How intruiging, thanks for the update!
Since no one else has said it, yet…
Hodor!
Joey beat me to it.
Oh, and I don’t even know what to say about all this info. This is one of those “a picture is worth a thousand words” thing…
http://31.media.tumblr.com/55e743a6c14ecf989ac7a8f744e58582/tumblr_n3kfmpZxcG1srkiv2o1_400.gif
Hodor ha got it
Those are the strangest looking feet I think I have ever seen.
Baby boy is Baby Jon Snow??
Who is the new Hand of the King arggghhhh I want to know!
Excited to hear Jaime and Cersei are filming this week!
Could be Edmure managed to get the new lady Tully preggers before the wedding turned red. So the newborn might be his? Can’t remember Tobias Menzies eye colour but the hair matches…
Jaime’s girl,
Kevan, obviously?
Hodor?
hm. or if kevan is killed/exiled by cercei, it could be that randall tarly now hand of the king.
More Ghost is totally okay for me !
I was so underwhelmed by his presence last season ! I know it’s tough to handle filming with the wolves, but I’m glad to learn they’re working it off for season 6 !
Does anyone else think the teaser poster is pointing towards something to do with Jon and Ghost? Red eyes? Jon wargs Ghost. I’ve a bad feeling about ghost anyway…I fear he may be doomed to burn.
Aw, we’re getting bb Jon!
Can Kevan be both Regent and Hand?
I think this is either the scene where Jaime says he’s going to rescue Margaery or the scene after he rescues Margaery and Tommen sends Jaime to the Riverlands.
Either way, I think we are getting some crazy raging Cersei.
It’s great that they’ll make more use of Ghost this year. Dealing with real-life wolves and inserting them digitally into the scene must be such a pain, especially the first part, so I get that they don’t have much screen-time. Still, nice to know they’re going all out this season!
It’s also nice to know we’ll actually get to see the throne room this year. Symbolically, the Iron Throne is what all the war in Westeros has been about, yet it didn’t appear in all of season five, which was kind of a weird choice, or an oversight.
I think so. And anyway, in the show a regent is soon to be superfluous, considering Tommen’s age. It’s gotta be Kevan, right? If the scene took place after a Tyrell powerplay, I don’t think Jaime would still be in the city by then.
Luka Nieto,
Yeah, I think until Kevan does something Cersei wants to kill him over (sending Jamie to Riverlands?) I’m sure he’s the Hand on the show initially.
My guess is Kevan will be Hand, and this season is going to do a sort of extended take on the Kevan regency from the Dance epilogue and show him trying to piece things back together.
Jaime has to decide to rescue Margaery, which will completely alienate Cersei, at some point. It’s unclear if Tommen is in this scene. I wonder if Kevan tries to get Jaime named Hand. Jaime’s M.O. is to refuse power, while Cersei grasps for it desperately.
This feels like it’s going to be part of the big Jaime/Cersei breakup.
Isn’t Mace Tyrell the current Hand in the books? Seems like an obvious move for Cersei in the show, to try and keep the Tyrells on her side. It could just be Kevan, but he wouldn’t be a “new” Hand, because he was already Hand at the end of S5 (right? for some reason I’m hazy on this, but I’m fairly sure that he returned during Cersei’s imprisonment to take up the role of Hand). Anyway, I’m voting for Mace Tyrell. Cersei believes she can control him easily, and will need to toss him a bone after all the hoo-ha of Season 5. And we know he will be filming some outdoor scenes with Jamie in S6, too.
Also – good riddance, Melisandre. You’ve burned your last little girl.
Very disappointing news. I really wanted to see Mel fight in the Battle for the North, we’ve never once been able to see her harness the power of the flames in battle, major let down.
Bob Warren,
Did we see Kevan as Hand in S5? Now I’m totally confused.
I assume the baby is Jon, but it doesn’t make sense to me because ToJ was already completed, right? And speaking of that scene… Is there anything about who’s playing Ned? other than Sean Bean saying he really wanted to do it?
Any word whether Tommen is in the scene?
I can’t imagine this baby will be Jon. Who would he be filming with, if Ned and Lyanna are done?
Also, it isn’t even confirmed this is for GOT right?
Any Liam sightings?
Nadia,
They can always call whoever is playing Ned back to set if it is baby!Jon. Or have changed/expanded his filming dates to include the day in December. Ditto Lyanna’s actress, if they even actually need her for any scene with Ned and baby!Jon. It could be flashbacks of Ned carrying the baby away from the Tower/to Winterfell. It could just be a momentary shot of the baby in the arms of a wetnurse or something similar. There doesn’t even need to be any actual actors present for that, just stand-ins. They could have recorded dialogue in earlier filming.
Nadia,
When Qyburn visited Cersei in her cell in “Hardhome”, he informed her that Grand Maester Pycelle had invited Kevan back to the capital to serve as Hand of the King. We then saw Kevan briefly when Cersei returned to the Red Keep following her Walk of Shame. We can safely infer that he has assumed the office. How long he’ll keep it in Season 6 is another question.
Ghost won’t let that unnatural/probably undead red woman touch Jon. Jon=Ghost, Ghost=Jon, cue old gods magic. 😉
Any chance Sansa is pregnant by the Bastard Bolton?
Jared,
Yes I totally forgot about that. Well if “new” is literally, ie we haven’t seen him yet, then yes to Mace! Would mean this is probably from further along in the season anyway I guess?
Nadia,
S5E8
QYBURN: I’m afraid not. Your Grace, Grand Maester Pycelle has summoned your Uncle Kevan back from Casterly Rock to serve as Hand of the King. He now presides over the small council.
CERSEI: Tell him I need to speak to him.
QYBURN: I implored him to visit you but he would not.
L7R is also saying the Jon is (according to some clues they have) probably going to be resurrected mid season (episode 5 or 6) directed by Jack Bender
Edith,
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT boooooooooo.
Although that eliminate a lot of the stuff that I thought people were exaggerating, ie all the politics and resistance he’ll face, in that he’s probably only going to have 3 episodes between resurrection and the big battle. No time for all that drama.
Also means that he definitely is dead-dead, and people would know it?
I guess it also gives Sansa time to get to the Wall, if indeed that’s where she’s going (which I very much doubt). If anything, I think this makes it very clear that she does NOT go to the Wall, but rather elsewhere (reunites with Littlefinger), because they’re not going to keep her at Castle Black for 4 episodes with a dead Jon.
Very curious to know who they’ve cast as Lyanna!!
Mel isn’t dying people. In S3 she told Arya that they would see eachother again. In S5 she said that she saw herself standing on the battlements of Winterfell and that the Bolton banners were being lowered to the ground. Mel will make it to S7.
I love that Google translates whatever term L7R uses for Littlefinger into “Pinkie”
Soooo, seeing as no one else has done it, I’m just gonna be the spoil-sport here and remind everyone that the Boltons were expecting, and the filming seems to be focusing on Winterfell currently.
Because Ramsey needs more to flip out about.
It is a bummer if Melisandre dies to give him life, and that we never saw her casually fry an eagle with human trapped inside, but you know, death must pay for life and all that. It will be a cool way to go out.
Episode 5 does seem a bit late. I also prefer they not drag out the mystery, and instead have more of a “Are you my mother, Thoros?” situation.
If you’re referencing the brown-eyed baby boy cast, I’m guessing the eye colour is meant to be a tipoff to parentage, which would rule out Ramsay and Sansa, who both have blue eyes.
Bodog,
Sansa and Ramsay both have blue eyes!
Brandon,
her saying it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. her visions can mean different things, as we’ve seen, and not in the way you’d think.
Good point. Though that could be as a flayed corpse on the battlements Arya whistles by.
James Rivers,
I’ve noticed that, too, and it cracks me up, although it does make sense.
It also leads me to wonder, if Littlefinger is Pinky, who is The Brain? 🙂
HotPinkLipstick,
Yes, it can.
Robert’s will was that Ned to be Regent AND Hand after he dies.
Melissandre is dead and risen like beric Dondarrion.
She’ll give Jon the red kiss.
Even Episode 5 seems awfully late for Jon’s resurrection, especially if Jon’s supposed to be front and centre in Season 6.
Nadia,
She already got it wrong. The vision is correct, her interpretation is wrong. She thought Stannis would defeat the Boltons, but it will be Jon instead since no other character would make sense.
Also speaking of Jon never sitting on the Iron Throne (and old promo pictures), here’s a random thought. That throne is made of old swords right? And it was a Targaryen throne? Is it possible some of those swords have Valyrian steel in them, and they’d burn the Iron Throne to fight the WW? Obviously that’s a huuuuuuge stretch, but it would certainly be symbolic in many ways.
(Why yes I’m wearing a hat made out of tinfoil).
I guess it depends on the source of the L7R report about the scene with the Hand. If it was a visually seen scene and the source didn’t recognize the actor, that rules out Kevan (and Mace). If it was from script excerpt, which simply didn’t mention the Hand’s name, then it may still be Kevan, who is still a “new” Hand even at the end of Season 5.
Brandon,
Obviously. The point is, saying she’ll see Arya again – maybe not. Maybe she’ll see a vision of Lyanna. Maybe something else entirely. And since there’s no real indications that flaming banners have come down at Winterfell, that could be another vision that means something different than she thinks literally.
I love Carice, but want it to be some repercussions of Mel burning Shireen, and less Carice filming means less Melisandre. Reviving Jon is not enough, atleast not for me.
Also, episode 5 or 6 sounds a little bit late for Jon’s resurrection? Not only becuse it’d frustrate the viewers too wait that long, but Kit Harington is one of the A-tier actors on the show, and probably have some kind of contract stipulating screen-time, numbers of episodes he’s appearing in? And yes, filming the battle took a lot of time, but he still seems to be the one actor spending the most time on set.
And yay for more Ghost! I’ve been so bitter about the neglect of the direwolves – I almost started to resent the screen-time given to the dragons (thinking they could’ve diverged the budget towards the wolves, unrealistic it may be).
Sundae,
Well if Ghost is filming a lot then thank god Ghost doesn’t die for Jon’s resurrection. But also, the optimistic fairy in me remembers the idea of “A Time for Wolves.”
Good logic. I’m rooting for it to be Randyll Tarly. I thought Kevan refused to be Hand if Cersei was anywhere near the throne? Now that she’s out of jail, I suspect he’ll take his marbles and sulk off to Casterly Rock again. Mace…wasn’t he Master of Ships and then liason to Bank of Braavos and whatever else Cersei could think of to make him GTFO of King’s Landing? Or am I misremembering the books….
Thrilled that we’re getting more of the Ghost-stick lol. I love the dragons and I know they can’t do much CGI of both wolves and dragons because expensive, but I’ve missed seeing the wolves, and they’re such a grand Northern/Stark symbol. Bring on the direwolves!
Finally agree that episode 5-6 seems a little late for the resurrection…what will the NW/wildlings do until then, hang around and play Parcheesi?
I think episode 4 or 5 are the perfect to jon come bacck.
Until that we will see a lot of good stuff.
Maybe the baby is from roose and walda?
No way would they wait with the resurrection until midseason. They cannot stall The Wall arc for 4 eps, let alone drop it from the plot for the time being. And the resurrection needs to happen fast, before decomposition sets in. Also the NW would want to burn him on the pyre, I don’t see them stalling that, they’d do it the very next day.
so can anyone tell me the flashbacks we will be getting in season 6 ? well besides young ned stark and the Tower of joy.
Yes, episode 5-6 seems very late for Jon’s resurrection… Even more, being yestersday’s poster character (if they are going to wait until ep.5-6 it doesn’t make sense to reveal that he is alive so early)
Also, regarding the poster, in the Jon Snow’s Pop version, it doens’t looks like “crying” blood at all (I don’t know if this is made by the same people that made yesterday’s poster)
My bet for Hand goes for Randyll also! 🙂
Nadia,
Exactly. My suspicion is that Mel will be burned on Jon’s funeral pyre and it’s that that will resurrect him; the unburnt, like Dany with Mirri Maz Duur. So it will be him who meets Arya again, and walks the Winterfell battlements, but she’s a part of him.
Anything but LSH !
Let´s not jump that particular shark.
This gives me much more hope for Ghost.
Dammit Lancelot, feet off the bed!!!
Edit: That was supposed to be ‘Lancel’, of course, but whatever.
M,
Agreed. The Night’s Watch is going to want to burn his body. Do they wait 5 episodes for that? Plus however long it was between seasons?
Unless Mel and Davos somehow steal his body, I suppose…
A baby with brown eyes?
http://40.media.tumblr.com/ec723083cbc1f521c95f0133a6d85080/tumblr_nmctd9aEIv1r9fp64o2_r2_500.png
Great news about Ghost. I really missed the Jon/Ghost bond last season.
Re Mel: maybe they are making a point of showing Jon isn’t going to be another Stannis under her influence.
Aguero,
Yeah, if this baby is related to the show, is Roose and Walda baby.
Great news about Ghost. I really missed the Jon/Ghost bond last season.
Re Mel: maybe they are making a point of showing Jon isn’t going to be another Stannis under her influence.
Anti-Rickon,
Why would they need to specify eye color for Roose and Walda’s child? That is only necessary if the baby is actually the infant version of an existing character. Assuming the baby is actually for Game of Thrones, of course. Eye color does not matter for Roose and Walda’s child.
Sorry about the double post
Of course jon ressurection will took place in episode 4 or 5 or 6.
He will ressurrect when bran see all the flashbacks and of course the Tower of joy. And this will took some episodes.
And jon dont even has to be ressurrected in castle black. Davos and mel can took his corpse out. I dont know if with permision of the men ofcastle black or not. (Like kidnap him)
And mel can try and try many times until she gets him ressurected. She self was impressed whit thoros. She dont know how to do it, im pretty sure she wont get him back in the first try.
Ps: of course we will have scenes in castle black and with mel and davos before jon comes back. Dont think the plot will start only when jon comes back.
And i think the baby is from roose and walda.
A baby with brown eyes could be either Jon or a Dothraki baby
Adam with one D,
Thia might be Jon coming “home” or there might be creative splicing.
If Jon’s resurrection only happens in episode 5, could we sort of see him warging Ghost in previous episodes, since Ghost is said to appear a lot this season? We could see some kind of dreams or hallucinations in order to keep Kit on-screen.
Adam with one D,
SEBASTIAN CROFT will be the younger ned stark
Exit81,
I think they already filmed all the flashback scenes. So if the baby is for Game of Thrones, he will be son of two characters with brown eyes. However I was looking now and Roose don’t have brown eyes, so I don’t know.
Nadia,
Oooo… let’s both wrap ourselves in Tinfoil! Tinfoil pajamas! Although the child being Jon to me sounds very sane and plausible.
I like the iron throne being used for scrap. Very symbolic, and a big funny twist to the age old question of who will sit on it in the end…
Tinfoil time!
Let’s have Mel die to resurrect Jon using his direwolf (trying to do a Mirri Maz Duur)… and then oopsie during the process she lives on through Ghost! Explains her death, and yet her prophecies..
Edited to add, better yet… She knows Jon warged into Ghost, and she dies and swaps into Ghost to put Jon back in his body..
No way.
Jon has so much to do, he’ll be back in episode 1 (last scene).
Anti-Rickon,
Brown eyes are dominant, blue eyes are recessive, so one brown eyed parent and one blue eyed can have blue-eyed or brown-eyed children. But my point still stands. Why would they need to specify eye color for Roose and Walda’s children?
The main flashbacks have been filmed, but as the article above actually states, they may have needed extra footage. They may have expanded flashback filming. A Dothraki child, likely would have been listed as needing to be North African, African, or some other ethnicity beyond Caucasian. If this child is for Game of Thrones, it is most likely baby!Jon Snow.
Wasn’t there something like a frozen cave or an in-the-Wall meat locker shown as one of the filming sites not too long ago? I wondered what it could be used for, and people at that time mentioned that it might be good to – ahem – store a body. I dismissed that at the time, but if Los Siete Reinos is correct at all, maybe this is what happened.
If they bring Ghost back for longer appearances, that’s good. The Direwolves were part of the story from the beginning. But I hope they have the funds and can eke out the time to show a little more of the canine aspects of Ghost.
I mean, they showed facial expressions on Drogon, but in prior scenes with Ghost, they barely show him wagging his tail. (or don’t wolves do that?) Remember when Jon reunited with Ghost at Craster’s Keep? Any devoted canine I know of would have been bouncing and wiggling all over the place, jumping on Jon. Ghost was shown wagging his tail a little as if to say, yeah yeah, it’s you again, and walking away. Or when he rescued Sam and Gilly from the would-be rapists – poor thing didn’t even get a “good boy” pat on the head. Yeah, I know, time restraints, costs, etc. But if you are going to do it, do it right.
The baby boy with the brown eyes could very well be Jon. We know that the exterior scenes wrapped up in Spain weeks ago, but the interior scenes of the TOJ are filmed in Belfast – and the filming is non-sequential, so they could be filming that scene this week!
Moka,
If you expect it . im afraid you will be very disapointed.
The own source tell he will be back episode 5 or 6 propably. And if you read what i post you will understand why.
There’s not a thing wrong with Eugene’s feet. That boy has the straightest toes I’ve ever seen on anybody. Much as I’m glad that Eugene is working and will be seen again, it means the darned Sparrows are going to be very active somehow. Wonder who they will be rounding up and tormenting now?
I don’t think Jon will come back episode 1, that’s for sure. All that drama for a climax that basically goes away immediately? No way. There has to be a sense of loss that sets in for it to be impactful, both for the audience and the characters.
In theory you could fill an episode or 2 of general chaos at the Wall, with Mel returning and Davos there, Stannis’ loss, and those loyal to Stark vs. the killers. After that? My guess is that Mel has a vision that she has to take his body, and perhaps she takes him to the Wildlings. I guess one episode they could skip the Wall/Jon story entirely. Just not sure how you get it to episode 5. 4 seems long enough to have an impact but still gives him another episode to get back on track.
I do think he can’t come back until the TOJ is shown, because I’m assuming when he comes back he comes back knowing – and WE know – who he really is, Rhaegar/Lyanna, etc. So that won’t happen right away.
How about a baby Sam recast so we become even more confused about the timeline? They start aging him backwards! ?
J/k
Dont be sad guys. You will have jon in the first episodes, but dead. Mel will proplably use some spell to his corpse dont rot, until she figured out how to bring him back. Like i said before, dont think she will bring him back in the first try.
And i really think now as i said before too. That Davos and Mel will kdnap his body and go away.
Its perfect normal he come back in midlle season. Not late not soon. Not nothing.
Every decision has logic. And i think this one is the best one.
Yay! Ghost filming!
Now he needs to explain himself about the whole not saving Jon from being murdered thing. Then we’re good. Just a quick chat and then he go on his merry way to do whatever direwolves do. Seriously, where was Ghost?
Is there a deleted scene of him being locked up that we are not aware of?
Aguero,
Ganging up /stealing your idea too.
So… 1st second of the next season *BOOM* Ghost is guarding the body. Screw you Night’s Watch people, get away from the cute corpse. It’s actually Jon now, but T.V. peeps have no clue.
Mel.. who in the books
… gets drawn to Ghost, and eventually synergy/realization she snatches the body. Davos follows/helps her because
A he hates her
B he’s got nowhere else to go
C it’s T.V. and Mel isn’t going to talk to a Direwolf and a corpse realistically
So for a few episodes, with a skip or two of the Wall Mel tries to figure out how she f*&%ed up the prophecy, Davos tries to get her to do the right thing… and eventually somehow we get a dead Mel, a live Jon and Sleeping Beauty gets his allotted screen time as a corpse… while delaying the resurrection until episode 5ish…
This is neither here nor there but I rewatched Hardhome the other day and if (when, let’s be real) Edd and Tormund die, I will cry a thousands tears of blood
watcher in the brothel,
Or Randyll Tarly?
If that casting call is for GOT it is most likely is for BabySnow….and it makes sense that the shots of the baby for TOJ scene would be done separate from the actors filming ..dont have to worry about scenes getting messed up and I think would be much easier on the baby to have as few people involved as possible
“Extras NI is searching for a newborn baby boy with brown eyes.”
Will wedding bells be ringing in season 7 for Brienne and Podrick? Stay tuned!
Did anyone ever consider the possibility that if Jon is Azor Ahai, Ghost has to die one way or the other, simply because “Jon Snow” is actually dead, and he reawakens with a different personality, more or less? Meaning he’s lost all ties to the Starks? Whenever a Stark kid lost their direwolf, their fate mirrored their wolf’s. Sansa lost her wolf to the Lannisters and became Lannister prey herself. Arya’s wolf is wandering the wilderness homelessly, and Arya herself got lost and a wild wolf, basically. Robb’s wolf was murdered treacherously at the Red Wedding along with him. Now, if “Jon Snow” will turn into “Azor Ahai” (or whatever name he will use), Ghost has to go. Simple as that. To use him as the means of resurrection makes very much sense in this case, too.
Not to mention there’s also the fact that Ghost has always been a symbol for Jon being an outsider, with Ghost being the runt of the litter (as Theon so nicely put it, when he still knew where to put it and was capable of doing so) and the “outcast” of his pack. If Jon returns as Jon Stark, that, too, will have to change one way or the other.
They didn’t specify brown eyes by mistake.
Perhaps if Jon
“Pooped today. Ate a weird squirrel. Peed on Red’s cloak. Had a nap. Scared humans for fun. Napped again. Jon refuses to throw ball for me – he seems to be napping a lot as well.”
Mel isn’t going anywhere. We still know so little about her. She said she has walked among fallen Bolton banners at winterfell. And she has been filming a lot to my understanding many people have met her in ireland on the streets even with Gwendoline. If they killed her it would be the biggest waste ever without even knowing her at all.
I’d also hate to see Edd, dolorous as he is, meet his endd. I love how he’s sarcastic as well as realistic, and loyal to boot. He’s a great character and wonderfully played by Ben Crompton.
I’d also hate to see Edd, dolorous as he is, meet his endd. I love how he’s sarcastic as well as realistic, and loyal to boot. He’s a great character and wonderfully played by Ben Crompton.
In other words, knowing GOT, he’s probably a goner. ´;︵;`
BluejayPrime,
Pigeon,
You two “birds” are right and funny… Red’s gonna wish she wore pants… and Ghost is dead, either way… wait… Ghost is dead, and mirrors Jon… my brain can’t wrap itself around all the layers of that…
Maybe a lot of wolf POV is the visual effects gags we’ll see this year…
CatspawAssassin,
I’m with you, most likely guess so far.
Sorry for the double post. Not quite sure what happened there. That would make for a great song, and I hope to hear them sing it one day. 😉
I see good things in the future for Tormund. He’s the leader of the Wildings after all.
(Gawd, I hope I didn’t just curse him.)
ep 5/6 for the resurrection seems too late. I cant see how he would end up fighting a major battle just 3 episodes after his resurrection.
I’m as happy as Ghost in a room of scheming, mutinous nationalists! More Ghost and green effects balls on sticks please…many past speculations becoming a bit less cloudy…. 🙂
L7R said that there’s going to be direwolves in the battle. Also they mention again that the scene between littlefinger/Ramsay/Sansa/Jon is before the battle and this is between boltons/umbers/karstarks/ vs pro-Starks/wildlings
I know what you mean, but after last season, which until Hardhome was criticized for having, as a pal of mine who’s a diehard GOT fan put it, “too many scenes with just two people talking to each other,” I can see the producers wanting to amp up the action early in the season.
Btw I disagree with my pal. I enjoyed the court intrigue.
Dont believe L7R. It does not add up. Mel just Said in ep 9 of season 5 that she has seen herself Walk among fallen Bolton banners. She Said she Will meet Arya again and Carice has been seen in ireland over months pictured with fans and Gwendoline. Also to kill her off Would be a HUGE WASTE when we know so absolutely little about her.
Edith,
It’s only Javi’s opinion or he knows it for certain. Because when people mentioned it before he was giving his opinion. It would make sense. Roose might be dead, because he would be there if he wasn’t by that point. I still struggle to see how would well known psycho like Ramsay kill him. Roose is not an idiot.
On Mel. It would be a very fiting way to kill her character. Maybe she read those visions badly and it’s not her meeting Arya or walking on the battlements of Winterfell? All her scenes wrapped up in secrecy is understandable, because it’s a huge deal. Not many people saw her and actually no photo with fans. I guess for a reason. I think she will die in the process of his resurrection, but more filming of Ghost.
If L7R is right Ghost will be there with Shaggydog or if Jon’s resurrction is truly in ep. 5 then Ghost might die instead of Mel. Wow didn’t expect it to be in that episode, because that’s an awful lot of things Jon needs to do before battle in ep.9. Episode 5 is really late for his resurrection, but it gos well, because TOJ is in 5 or 6 episode.
IMO Jon comes back in ep 1 or 2, 3 at the latest. With the characters and storylines that they have been cut or killed off Jon needs to come back early to keep a good pace in the season. Can’t have that major of a character miss half a season.
Geralt of Rivia,
Melisandre: “I loved the play, Arya! You’ve become a fine actress.”
Arya: “Why thank you… and who are you?”
Melisandre: “I brought your half-brother back to life.”
Arya: “Oh, right! Sorry, but I’ve been a bit busy for the last several years, what with having an actual life and all. Remind me again, who’s my half-brother?”
Melisandre: [Sad trombone sound] 😉
So Eugene Simon is a hobbit!
CatspawAssassin,
😀
Speaking of fate of other characters. Tormund, Edd, Wun Wun, Ghost and Davos. I hope at least one of them will survive next season. I was sure last season that Edd might die at Hardhome, but thankfully I was wrong about that.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Varys
How do we know that L7R has the right kind of info on this matter? I mean Jon’s resurrection should be a very well guarded scene to be leaked so easily 5 (or if it’s in E5 6) months before. Now having Jon being resurrected in E5 (one month after the premiere) sounds like a weird choice. First of all what is going to happen with the corpse? I suppose that the Watchers will want to burn it. Then the only other option is to hide it. But we are talking about a corpse not a shoe. And all this for 5 eps? I do not know I can not buy this scenario. It seems very sloppy somehow. It might fit with the placement of the ToJ scene in ep5or6 but why is it obligatory that they coincide?
Geralt of Rivia,
Actually you Are completely wrong there has been several sigtings of her. Pics in ireland with fans and Gwendoline and Photos with herself and fans. It seems she has been filming for months. it does not add up at all and also seeing herself walk among Bolton banners and she is also still a mystery to so Many shown she cant die from poison or cold or be choked either. I do not see her Being killed it would not male Any sense and a huge Waste too
Edith,
Assuming these spoilers are true:
If both Umbers and Karstarks are fighting with the Boltons, the other northern lords have only one day of filming and Jon isn’t resurrected until mid season, what will Sansa be doing? Looks like she might run into LF after all.
If Jon really isn’t resurrected until ep 5 and Ghost has a bigger role, it could be that Jon does warg into Ghost, and maybe Bran will find a way to communicate with him thru Ghost?
I think the L7R people were only guessing his resurrection episode though, based on the clues they have? So they might be wrong about this anyway.
Geralt of Rivia,
Of all of them, I fear most for Davos. I really like that guy.
ghost of winterfell,
I’ve been saying forever and ever that Sansa ends up with Littlefinger, and this supports it even more. What the hell is Sansa going to do at CB with Jon dead? And she comes to battle with Littlefinger.
There is no way that they are going to wait until the middle of the season to bring back Jon. As for the Warging bit, besides the fact that the books make it pretty clear Jon would not be able to do that (remember,
there is a bigger problem: how the hell would the audience know what is happening? Only some of the book readers would have any clue what was happening.
My bet is that people mis-estimated because Harrington shot much of his material behind closed doors or at unpublicized locations.
Michael,
I didn’t know about about pictures with Carice. It was all quiet with her at least to my knowledge. If you can find some pictures,but ehm I will trust on this, you seem to be sure of that. R’hllor and his servaints certainly work in a very mysterious ways. 😀
CatspawAssassin,
I fear mostly for Edd, Ghost and Wun Wun. Ghost because of resurrection or simply battle, Wun Wun is giant and and not that hard to miss. It would nice for at least one of the Wildlings leaders to survive, but count on Wun Wun as one with Tormund being the other. I keep my hopes relatively lower, but it’s possible two or three of them might survive. It’s just my GOT paranoia and constatnt fear for my elovd characters.
Michael,
I was thinking about this today and other than Belfast in August, maybe September, I couldnt remember seeing any photos of Carice with fans. Except maybe at fan conventions. Which filming spoilers with Carice were you thinking of?
Lisa0527,
She has been seen with Gwendoline and fans in the Streets of ireland. All of This does not add up to only filming a scene and noway They Are forgetting her say that she Walked among fallen Bolton banners and meeting Arya again plus there is still so much mystery around her. To kill her off would not make sense without even exploring her more either
Hand is probably Kevan
OT:Trailer for Captain America Civil War. This should be great. Especially Bucky and Steve vs Tony. It’s supposed to be fight for the ages.
Don’t all babies (at least Northern people’s babies) have blue eyes at birth? They get their color within the first year. Surely difficult to find one with brown eyes already.
While I appreciate the spoilers L7R have given us, I’m not quite buying that Jon won’t be resurrected until episode 5 or 6. And they’re also saying that the meeting between Jon, Sansa, Ramsay, and LF occurs before Snowbowl – which has been confirmed as episode 9?
So for half the season Jon’s gonna be on ice and then in the span of 5 episodes he’s going to: rise from the dead, leave CB, rally the Wildlings to march on Winterfell, somehow/somewhere acquire Stark armor, attend a parley in WF, reunite with Sansa, and then fight in an epic battle??? Ugh. I hope something’s getting lost in translation because if this is true, Jon’s S6 story is going to be a helluva disappointing rush job.
I’m guessing Jon’s revival will happen in the second episode. I don’t think they will wait until episode 5.
Technically, Kevan is the “new” Hand of the King in Season 5, I think.
I’d love Jon’s resurrection to be postponed until midseason. Just keep people tugging at the strings, ‘why aren’t they resurrecting him already? So maybe he’s dead, after all?’
I also hope that the blood price for Jon’s resurrection is Mel+Ghost, and that Mel does it voluntarily. No silly ‘Davos interfering’ – I’d say that Davos knows that the one who killed Shireen is Stannis, not Mel. I’m also rather wondering at the people upthread who say ‘we didn’t get to know Mel’ – But we did! We know that she’s a zealot devoted to her god. What more do you want to know?
Also, it appears that as Mel dies, Dany will be getting her own Red Priesthood. Pretty great, I think.
Ghost having more screen time makes sense if Jon is going to be back only in episode 5 …so until then we get to see ghost …
Lol at people who never stop comparing jom coming back with dany’s moment ….so if mel is burned like MMD …who is going to burn them Ghost i suppose or davos or tormund …
And that doesnt make jon similar to dany …it makes him as Drogo
I just hope that show puts an end to all this Jon theories about him fulfilling prophecies and does not leave a door like books…make it clear who is it
Aguero,
why would Davos help Mel to take away Jons body? Jon means nothing to him and Mel even less. As far as we know he always mistrusted her and hated her since Blackwater. And now he could even blame her for Stannis and Shireens death.
I hope you’re right cause I miss him and
ghost of winterfell,
Lord Snow better come back sooner than that. A girl can’t wait too long.
Melisandre is not responsible for Stannis’s death and neither for Shireen’s. Without the sacrifice, Stannis, Selyse, Shireen and the entire army would have all frozen to death. The only one who is responsible for Stannis’s death is Stannis himself because he marched on WF after the snow had melted.
I think a couple of episodes of aftermath/teasing is enough before we get a full return. I don’t think they would leave it longer. I think audiences like mystery, but if something goes on too long it becomes a dragging inevitability.
I also think that the brown eyed baby heavily suggests a scene that wraps up the ToJ flashback scenes. If they spread the flashbacks over a couple of episodes then the resurrection/birth can sit together nicely. Or even the scene of the arrival at WF for baby can sit next to a scene of the return to WF for reborn JS.
I think it’s logic that Snow isn’t going to come back in the first episodes…they don’t create such buzz for nothing, it may serve the story as well…
Kit was filming 3 times if i remember well, the 5 weeks were for the 9th episode and he hasn’t done much other days of filming.
If Jon stays dead for a while, it seems that Sansa goes back to LF, also she first meet with Jon while LF and Ramsay is present?? (mmmmm)
This is such bullshit. The show has an actress of Carice van Houten’s character and continues to underwrite her year upon year. I’m disgusted by that. We have barely scratched the surface with Melisandre and I feel the showrunners are intimidated by the character somewhat, unsure in their approach.
The report has been misinterpreted through the translation: just because Carice has not been SEEN on the set, does not mean she has not had screentime. Her scenes are of a secretive nature and the article reports they are mostly studio based this year.
Lord Parramandas,
She may not be responsible for Stannis or Selyse’s deaths, but in my opinion she’s very much responsible for Shireen’s. Even if Stannis in the end was the one deciding, Mel’s the one who put the idea in his head and convinced him it was the right decision. The sacrifice may have melted the snow, but is also caused Stannis army to desert – and Mel knew it was a mistake, she wouldn’t have ran back to the Wall with her tail between her legs otherwise.
And from Davos point of view, being so protective of Shireen and the Stannisfan he is, Melisandre is responsible for everything. I’m not saying it’s right, but it’s what he believes.
Reviving Jon around episode five makes very little sense, for both practical reasons and inverse reasons.
For practical reasons they have just launched the season six campaign with Jon Snow’s face. Therefore they have now created a certain expectation with the audience.
Kit Harington is one of the main actors on the show, he might contractually be entitled to a certain amount of screen time or episodes within a season. It is also in the show’s own interest to try and keep their main characters or popular characters on screen.
They have already created a year long cliffhanger from Jon’s death, there really would not be much reason to drag it out much further. A story is not just about creating cliffhangers, shocking moments or suspense. A story is about telling a tale. If you just concentrate on creating cliffhangers and suspense then the tale will start to suffer at some point and you will just end up with bad storytelling.
Jon’s resurrection also has to correlate with what we understand about the universe within the story. Someone who is resurrected cant stay dead for to long, this is a well established fact within the story.
After Jon’s death the Nights Watch would burn Jon’s body. They have to address what happened at Castle Black and to the Nights Watch, they cant delay any conclusions until the middle of the season.
Jon might warg into Ghost, but they have never established that Jon is a warg. And it would be nearly impossible to show that Jon is within Ghost for five episodes. It certainly would not make compelling television to just follow around a wolf. This is not a wildlife documentary with voice over. There are only ten episodes within a season they really dont have extra screen time to waste.
On top of that a warg cannot stay within his animal for to long, the warg will just fade within their animal. This is also a well established fact.
We also know that decomposition is very bad for resurrection. Melisandre and Davos could take Jon’s body or hide his body from the Nights Watch, but that would only work for a short time. The Nights Watch would want to know what happened to his body and they would burn the body. Melisandre and Davos really has no connection with the Wildlings in the show. The only connection they had with the Wildings was when they burned Mance Rayder, so they would not be able to hide Jon’s corpse with the Wildlings.
From what we know about season 6, Jon will have a lot to do this season, it would be difficult to pack it in within five or so episodes.
We know that the Tower of Joy scene will take place around the fifth or sixth episode. I think that is why some people believe that Jon would be resurrected in the middle of the season, but there is no reason to infer that Jon’s resurrection and the Tower of Joy scene will be connected. The Tower of Joy will be a vision for Bran and for the audience. There is nothing to indicate that Jon himself will actually learn something about his parentage. And if Jon himself does not learn about his parentage then there is no reason why his resurrection and the Tower of Joy scene needs to co-inside.
Taking everything that we know into consideration, they would at least have to address what happened at the Wall in the first or second episode of the season. Jon’s resurrection would have to take place at the end of episode one or at the very latest in episode 3, his resurrection would most likely be ideal for the second episode.
It would be good to have more of Ghost, it is a shame we saw so little of Ghost in the last few seasons. The fact that Melisandre might not have that many scenes in season six perhaps shows that Jon will not be as influenced by her as Stannis.
Geralt of Rivia,
Thank you for sharing that! It looks intense. I’ll admit I wasn’t a fan of the storyline in the comic for reasons I can’t really explain beyond it was like watching your parents fight. All those great heroes taking sides against each other; it was a rough ride. But any movie that gives The Falcon more screen time will get my money.
Nope, other then the five weeks for the big battle in episode nine Kit Harington has also been spotted in Belfast for weeks on end. It also seems as if he has now learned a bit more about being spotted, so he has more effective evasive tactics at this stage.
Maggie,
I don’t think that we can guess at a character’s screentime just by the sighting reports we get. It could be that the actors were there in the city, just not spotted. For example, we know through Sue’s spoiler that last week there was filming on the Winterfell sets, yet none of the actors involved were actually spotted in Belfast. If Sue had not got that spoiler from her sources we would never have known about this filming.
Sundae,
The problem is that Davos has no idea what happened. He may find out eventually, but as of right now he doesn’t know how Shireen died or what Stannis did.
Until it is confirmed here that Jon will be coming back in EP5 I will not belive it.
EP2-3 is much more likely, in my opinion.
iridium,
It’s called Civil War, but it’s a bit different. Accord vs comics and their identities. Many of the heroes are not there for a reason, because it’s virtually imposssible to fit all of them into the movie. Bucky seems to be having a much bigger role than we expected and as rumours said. Black Panther going after him for some reason, Tony because Bucky probably killed his parents as it was hinted in Winter Soldier movie and Steve understandably. The words is that Zemo and Crossbones are after him too. Just missing my favourtie Spidey, but they will save him for other trailer or straight for the movie. In Russos we trust.
ghost of winterfell,
I believe this article because Sue posted it, if the information by LosSietes contrasts hers, she wouldn’t have reproduced as she never post spoilers that contrast her own information. This Spanish site also mention the scene in Winterfell takes place before the big battle, don’t forget they had a big spoiler talk with someone working in 5 and 6 episodes and they knew all about the scene with Jaime and Margaery before the actors even reach Spain, and what happened inside the castle of Tarly family.
Of course the show will use the , is he dead or not thing a lot… they even started with those mystery posters. They have to build his comeback with several scenes, explain to the audience maybe with the flashbacks what he is supposed to be and then give a whole episode (9) to tell the winterfell story and give us a full taste of what Jon is now after he came back.
This will also give time to other characters like Sansa and LF to build their character’s season story and relationship after the last season events and general time to the other stories of the lead characters to have a logical continuity. If he came back in episode two and then had three episodes off because of other stories , people would be more upset…. Maybe people really need to learn Snow is dead before he comes back, or we need to see that he can warg into his wolf… e.t.c.
Maggie,
But Sue has not mentioned anything about Jon coming back in Ep 5/6 in this post. It’s only L7R who is saying that and even they are saying that it’s their guess.
If Jon comes back in Ep 2, he will not sit out the next 3 eps to catch up with other characters, he will have his own story.
Boudica,
Very well said!
Bodog,
That’a a very interesting idea. I thought the baby was supposed to be Jon, but now it seems believable that he is Sansa’s baby by Ramsay. Poor girl, that’s a tough one! And for a noblewoman like her, who praises legitimacy as a virtue, it’s also the issue of not knowing if her child is a bastard or not: she had been previously married, and Tyrion is very much alive.
Nadia,
I love this! Kudos!
Maggie,
The whole thing is just absurd. 5 episodes without Jon to give time to the others to bond with each other? No way! Without of course knowing what D&D have in mind all this goes against the logic. A corpse is a corpse even in GRRM’s world and follows the laws of nature, that is it decomposes. 5 episodes in GOT universe is a lot of time during which a corpse will start to decompose badly. Mel (possibly) can bring Jon back to life but not to beautify his rotten body. And what will people do at the Wall for 5 episodes? Play hide and seek via building relations and bonds? How relevant is this to the story when the shows time had become increasingly precious? And then what Jon is back again in 5 and he has eps 6, 7, & 8 to prepare a battle of the magnitude of the WF battle? Unless we watch for 3 episodes only what Jon does (which is out of question). 3 episodes are not enough to build to the Snowball. If Jon is to meet Sansa it cannot happen just 5 mins before the battle. If Sansa is to have a role in North’s politics she cannot be rescued by Lf and spent 8 eps with him. LF will lead an army to WF. He cannot just park this army somewhere unnoticed just to escort Sansa around until the big battle. Furthermore by the time that Sansa jumps from the walls of WF LF has just left KL and is on his way to the Vale. So he will not be able to jet pack himself once more just to pick up Sansa from the woods. So the info we have got so far collides with a kind of common sense regarding the sequence of certain events.
BluejayPrime,
LOL about Theon!
But your theory about wolves seems plausible, although I mourn for Ghost.
Cersei + Jaime + and Kevan(the new hand of the king)
This scene will happen before Jaime go to the Riverlands.
I remember when Eugene Simon fretted about not being in S3 and S4, seemed to be wondering if his character came back.
He did!
When I had my first baby the midwives told me that all babies are born with blue eyes and they change colour after a few weeks. I somehow doubt this, maybe they meant white babies? But my baby’s eyes were dark blue at birth and did lighten considerably. If it’s true about Caucasian babies then the baby can’t be Caucasian. This was nearly thirty years ago though so it’s possible it’s just another ‘old wives’ tale’ and been thoroughly debunked by now.
Maggie,
Sue doesn’t say anywhere in this article when Jon is coming back.
Those who are saying that this baby can’t be from dothraki …
Remember the child of dany and drogo from season 2 …
I too believe it will be jon but it certainly can be used in other storylines also. ..
And those who are saying it does not make sense to keep jon missing in forst five episodes…we really dont know what GRRm and D and D have in mind …we all have theories and most agreed upon theory about jon was that he will spend sometime in ghost before he comes back …so now knowing that ghost is going to have more screen time…it maybe possible that jon will comeback in thw middle of season …
And its not like it has never happened begore i,e a major storyline not appearing in couple of episodes …so they can definitely skip wall for a episode or two in the first half considering they will be having lot of screentime in the later half
I think
unMel will breathe her soul into Jon, exhuming his own into Ghost, and Jon will fulfill the prophecies, as Mel..and GhostI think we just need to consider the fat that this is true- when have L7R got it wrong? They’re always been pretty reliable in the past, just because we don’t like the sound of something (or may no make sense to us), doesn’t mean its not true. Remember last year most of us point blank refused to accept that Sansa would take on the role of Jeyne Poole in Winterfell?
We don’t know how the episodes/ stories are structured so we should keep an open mind. There is loads going on with Dany/ Sansa/ Theon/ Arya/ Mereen and KL cast that could easily take up the vast majority of the first half of the season. The climax of which could be Danys conquest of Dothraki/ TOJ/Jons resurrection mid-season. That would leave the latter half to focus on the North/RLs, battle of the bastards, and Dany’s Westeros departure/arrival and (I believe) the breach of the Wall as the season cliffhanger.
We all expected Ghost to be present and Mel to resurrect Jon. Not much of a spoiler.
Nar Jon will be resurrected by the power of R’hlorr and the Old Gods, and so a more “complete” resurrection.
Mel will light Jons Pyre before the Weir Tree where he swore his oaths, they’ll do the whole “and now his watch is ended” thing and voila, Shireens life pays for Jons resurrection and Bran sees through the Weir Tree as well and “calls him back from death”
Tobias has brown eyes, so it could be.
I can think only about three newborn babies this season:
– flashback to Jon Snow’s birth
– Edmure’s and Roslin’s baby
– Roose and Walda’a baby
Now the question is in which case the colour of eyes would be so important?
– Jon – maybe they see his eyes colour and are relieved that it will be easier to hide his identity
– Edmure – is someone doubting that it’s his baby? After all he spent only one night together with Roslin
– Roose – maybe Ramsay tries to stir trouble by accusing Walda that it’s not Roose’s child?
All good possibilities.
In every season there isn’t a character that appears in every episode. Only Tyrion have had 10 and even he had seasons with 8 episodes and less.
So this is a fact.
I assume that people will want Jon to do something after he comes back and not have episodes off. So 1 ,2, 3 we have him dead, burried, hidden e.t.c, the flashbacks, other stories start to connect e.t.c We will not visit the wall for a couple episodes and that’s it. HBO keeps on selling it and meanwhile we watch other characters. Yes he has his own story as every other character and they need time to to develop them also… so they can reach the level of story everyone has to have in the end. If Jon has one Pov in TWOW and till then he stays into ghost..and things happen because of his death this is something the series has to do also. I don;’t know what is true but it seems logic to me that neither GRRM or the show will give up all the secrets in the first chapter or episode… GRRM drags Brienne dead-undead for 2 books…imagine something so important like this. It is just that these spoilers doesn’t sound fake to me…
Anyway we are here, just some months patience and we will all see in which episode he come back.
dothrakian raven,
We actually have no idea if Sansa ever leaves Winterfell or not, she only filmed there and with LittleFinger….so we don’t know what happened after the fall. It’s LF, Brienne or Ramsay who find her?
Ashara Payne,
My (Caucasian) kid’s eyes were grey at birth and turned brown within two weeks. But he was also heavier than 10 pounds after a month, too. Not every person is the same.
Well if Jon is resurrected in ep5 then that means that he will come back changed. Being dead for 5eps is not 5 days in GOT and his body will start to decompose. We have to remember that he is badly injured by the knives of the traitor watchers so not having him resurrected in the first two episodes will inevitably mean that when he comes back to his own body he will be a greatly and to the worse transformed Jon ala LSH. If I remember well LSH’s long exposure to the elements before her body found by the BwB had as a result a very changed and deformed Cat. In the episode when Dondarion comes back to life in S3 Thoros who brings him back is in the vicinity and he acts very swiftly to rescue D. Unless there will be other magic powers and solutions involved I don’t see how Jon will come back unscathed and fit. Even if Mel and Davos manage to hide his body safely Jon will need to warg Ghost for sometime which will affect him as well. It will be interesting to see what they have done to the pre battle Jon…
They haven’t gotten it wrong. You people have.
The L7R report simply pieces together all the Jon-related events we know about. They don’t claim Jon is resurrected in episode 5 or 6. They claim the TOWER OF JOY takes place in episode 5 or 6, and then go on to explain what will happen to Jon per se in the season, after being resurrected, without specifying WHEN he will be resurrected. You may read that as an implication that the flashback would be shown alongside the resurrection, but that would only be speculation on their part; they don’t claim to know that for a fact —and that’s why they don’t even make that claim at all.
Roose Bolton and Frey baby? Maybe, Ramsay kills them shortly after the birth to maintain his claim.
Luka Nieto,
Ok, thanks for this explanation! I guess a lot of this discussion was in vain then. Since I don’t follow Spanish, I just went by what the other poster said.
We’re not done with Melisandre yet .. she has to meet Arya first (remember season 3?) .. no way that could happen in season 6 .. it’s a long way from braavos ..
Sundae,
agreed. dragons are cool but the dire wolf plot threads started out as very significant and then became after thoughts following the Red Wedding. Jon’s relationship to Snow is critical, has magical elements and assuming he has Targaryan blood combining with dragon magic would make him very powerful indeed. Writers need to up the magical realism quotient because the ordinary human stuff has hit some walls.
Luka Nieto,
La pregunta es: ¿Cuándo resucitará Jon?
Tenemos la pista de que según nuestras informaciones es Jack Bender, responsable de los capítulos 5 y 6, quien se ocupó del rodaje en el Castillo de Zafra (Torre de la Alegría). De hecho, también recibimos filtraciones por otras vías de que aquellas eran escenas del capítulo 6. Resucitarle a mediados de temporada sería sin duda un buen golpe de efecto. Aunque el capítulo 6 ya va a estar cargadito en Desembarco del Rey…
Yes they do! The question say when is going to be Jon resurrected?
They got the clue according to some information that is going to be Jack Bender, responsible for episodes 5 & 6, who film TOJ. So they are implying that is the same director for both scenes
Then the article say…resurrecting him mid-season would certainly be a good punch line!
Riverhawk,
It all started with direwolves, but can’t argue with dragons and their importance in the endgame.
Show really screwed up or downplayed Jon’s and Ghost’s relationship. The bond them between in the books is much stronger than in the show. It’s like they don’t care for each other much. It’s not easy to work with dogs and it’s expensive, dragons are important. Still their bond should shine and not be pushed aside. At least there is always Daeny and Drogon. Since there was or is little of Nymeria, Summer or Shaggydog. They should have used Ghost a bit more. Ghost is way more involved with Sam and protecting him all the time. I hope next season can redeem it, but I’m a bit sceptical on this.
Edith,
They’re speculating. The only information they have is that Bender is directing the TOJ sequence, and they’re guessing that it’d be a good place to also have the resurrection (“Resurrecting him in the mid-season WOULD surely have a big dramatic effect”). They aren’t claiming to know that for a fact, though. They also offer the big scenes in King’s Landing in the same episodes as evidence that the resurrection won’t take place in those episodes. They’re just throwing ideas around.
watcher in the brothel,
SPOILER
I am thinking Kevan will be dead…
Riverhawk,
Maybe show is planning to reveal Jon’s parentage and resurrect him in the very same episode to tied it up together. Being even more impactful than it would’ve been in earlier episodes. If that’s the logic behind this, I can agree.
Luka Nieto,
Ok that makes sense now. Thank you. There was a comment above from Edith that L7R said that there are clues that J’s resurrection will probably take place in ep 5. Since some of us can not read spanish it is difficult to know what L7R has actually said/written about it. SO NO JON RESURRECTION IN EP5 or 6 CONFIRMED!!!
Wonderful recap. Thx.
Something needs to happen with Jon immediately. The longer he stays dead, whether on ice or not, the more he decomposes mentally and “deconstructs” (as we well know with our favorite merciful mother). Death’s limboland imposes a heavy tax.
Although I am hoping for some creative warging (at least in TWoW), there are risks and penalties with that as well, as you have stated. Maybe Jon has far-reaching support from proxies serving the old gods and the red god (as others have mentioned) that will enable a “less-taxing” limboland experience. Regardless, I believe this is the moment when the “reinvigorated” magic and power in the world, which was signaled by well-timed red comets, direwolf bonding, dragon births, obsidian candle light and WW marches, begins to reveal itself.
Edith,
Edith I hope you understand that what you are saying and what Nieto is saying are two different things… And I trust Nieto…
Not exactly. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. It’s just that L7R are not confirming the resurrection happens in those episodes; it still could (though I doubt it). The point is, that part of L7R’s report is purely speculation.
Felt Pelt,
Great point, plus her dieing doesn’t line up with what Carice said at the Emmys about her arc this season, saying “We see more of her”.
Luka Nieto,
Oh bloody heck, thanks Luka… I don’t speak Spanish.
I don’t think that Jon’s Resurrection needs to happen AFTER the Tower of Joy… but I do hope he’s not a major player for the first 5 episodes. He doesn’t need to be, the whole season is ABOUT him, ToJ, people flocking to him to join him, fight him, etc…
Jon should come back in episode 2 or 3. Not any later than that. They can’t just drag and display his body for around 4 or 5 episodes.
It seems obvious that Melisandre is going to resurrect Jon, but what if it’s not just her? We don’t know what Bran and Bloodraven can/will do yet, besides visions and warging. They could help Jon so he will not be corrupted by the Red god.
Luka Nieto,
That is what I am saying. It is not confirmed (for the time being ) which means it can be confirmed in the future. We will see…
Quoting this for emphasis. There’s a reason I only posted a couple tidbits from the piece- because those are the new pieces of info and the rest of it is speculation or summary of what’s already been posted.
Stop with that ridiculous theory that Jon will be resurrected in episode 6, that’s just ridiculous. He’s one of the 3 main characters (and probably THE main character, the Prince That Was Promised, Azor Ahai, and the Song of Ice and Fire), and HBO just teased season 6 with his FACE. No way he’s going to miss 6 episodes of of 10. No way he’s going to be resurrected, deal with the Night’s Watch, the wildlings, Mel and Davos, Sansa and Rickon and Theon and Brienne, learn is parentage, fight the Boltons and conquer Winterfell within 4 episodes, while being a rotting corpse (because yes, 6 episodes means a few weeks of rotting). No way.
In my mind I feel sure Jon will come back in episode 1 – either the very first or the very final scene of episode 1. I think the boldness of the teaser poster supports this. Also we know this is going to be a VERY Jon-focussed season, so it makes total sense to get him back in play as soon as possible.
Episode 5/6 makes zero sense.
Even if they are going to use gods, then they still have to hang their miracle guns on the wall before firing them! This possible gun really has not been hung in either venue: and I would argue (and have argued) that the books have said that this gun is not on the wall! We might see Jon have some wolf dreams while he is passed out if they need to put that gun on the Wall: but even then, they have to make it very clear visually that Jon is seeing these images through Ghost. And that means that Jon has to be seen.
That means that Jon absolutely has to be there. “Offscreen presence” borders on an oxymoronic phrase in TV and cinema.
And, no, the season is not going to be about Jon. It’s going to be about some story to which Jon and Daeny will contributors 1 and A (with Tyrion Contributor III), probably through parallels created by the two of them trying to convince lots of people that they should not be considered effectively dead-to-them.
The Carice tidbit is a curious thing. Either her presence on set has been tightly guarded (more than Jon Snow’s which doesn’t really make sense) or she’s gone and has no more role to play. Wasn’t there a spoiler from Reddit a while back that a major female character will die in the first few episodes?
Sue the Fury,
heh, so, it’s not just people not reading Spanish: it’s people not reading English! Well, congrats: your site obviously is getting a huge Russian speaking population! 😀
Shadow Shifter,
Material filmed indoors or on very short-term outdoor sets is essentially very secure: we tend to learn about the stuff filmed outdoors on sets that are done for multiple days.
The studio stuff in particular is very easy for studios to keep under wraps: they already have it set up so only particular people can get there in the first place.
Wimsey,
Meh… I still want Jon to be dead or confused, indecisive, muddled and in shock for a while. Oxymoronic that may be, but for him to bounce back… 100% fine, full steam would bother the heck out of me and devalue the “death” for the viewer. Even one episode dead, one not present and a couple slow burning would do it…
Wimsey,
I agree. It’s still curious though since there had been a lot of speculation about her role in Jon’s fate. I guess I’m just expecting a lot more news or just sightings of Carice in and around Belfast.
You guys know there’s a picture out that shows a dead Jon Snow with warg eyes, so I’m guessing they were originally going to end season 5 with Jon’s eyes going warg. Ghost being near him may confirm that. Why wouldn’t Ghost rip out Thorne’s throat if he was near?
Matt,
That picture was photoshopped.
That’s my opinion too.
What people need to understand is that Mel just came back to Castle Black in last episode, there’s no reason for her to wander there for 6 episodes with a rotting corpse and Davos blaming her for the death of their king and princess. Plus, the NW will soon kick both of them off Castle Black now that their king is dead, it’s not a hotel. No, she won’t wait, she’ll be devastated by her failure and will want to ask R’hllor in her flames, immediately after the events of last episode, and then learn the truth and act.
This series main character is not Jon, or Dany or Tyrion or the three of them together any of the other…
There is no evidence that there is one main character,
GRRM said that he has 12 main characters just some months ago and he rejected many movie offers who asked him to be only for Dany or for Lannister-Stark war because he wanted his work to have all his main characters.
We all have favourites but this is a complex work and don’t underestimate it.
So this season might have more Arya than anyone…would that mean something for you?
Cersei has more episodes than Jon and Dany so far……. so???
ladywolfsbane,
That would be great, and i think they will do that. Jon didn’t die only for cliffhanger…this has a meaning, and they have to make the audience understand it.
We have to see what changed in Jon’s character, and understand why this happened because it is important for the story.
He meant POV characters. That’s a plausible classification of “main character”. “Dany, Jon and Tyrion” is another, more traditional interpretation.
I think this is one of the things GoT and ASOIAF fans can argue all the time… but there is no real evidence to call anyone “the main character”. He said 12 main characters… there more POVS than 12. He also said he didn’t want a movie focused on any of his characters…not even the Stark Lannister war. I respect that he believes everyone is imprortant because it’s his own work… he may have Sam be more important than his first Pov Bran in the end… or Dany die before she does anything important..
Also the show runners have named more important Cersei than Bran who doesn’t even got screen time last season….. and she gets more episode than Dany and Jon every season…. even personally Jon is one of my favs and Cersei not even close , i can see that.
This is a very complicated thing, i choose to see every character that gets his own story important… the director of 1/2 episodes said that they have 10 stories to tell this season…and they did a reading of each of the 10 stories from the start to the end…. so the show agree with what GRRM said as well. 12 minus Ned and Cat= 10 🙂
Really? The characters with the most screen time in the show are : Tyrion (259.5 minutes), Jon (216.25 minutes), Dany (192.75 minutes). Source.
And it’s not only about screen time, it’s also about relevance and importance in the story. A queen, a Lord Commander, a Hand. Three survivors and leaders of the three biggest Houses. Ice and Fire, dragons and werewolves, and in the middle, a smart dwarf. Don’t tell me they are not the main characters 😉
I wouldn’t read too much into Carice Van Houten having little screen time this season as indicative of anything. She came in at 11 minutes 21 seconds last season according to Westeros.
My guess is we’ll get about 4-5 scenes with her this season. Which could definitely be considered a short amount of filming but doesn’t really mean anything considering her previous seasons screen time. She’s never been a huge character in the series. An interesting one, certainly, but not major. We’ll likely hear some of her backstory finally (though possibly not, they may just omit it entirely on the show), see her resurrect Jon, a short scene before the battle and a scene after the battle.
I doubt we’ll see her exploding any Boltons into flame, sadly.
Maggie,
From “that would be great” to the ” I think they will do that” there is quite a distance.
You are entitled to think a lot of things about what is going to happen but what they will do is a whole different issue. I think that Jon didn’t die just for the audience to get some time to reflect on the meaning of his own death or on death in general (if this is what you are trying to say). He is not a real god or person he is a character in a tv series where time matters and matters a lot. So if some of the audience needs the healing passing of time in order to understand the meaning of death then it is better to find other paths or means to do it. That is what I think of course and I am not so sure that they (writer, producers and co) will do as I think…
She has more episodes because she’s the only character who stays in the capital, where everyone else come and go and where she shares screen time with all of them. But in terms of screentime, she is only fourth.
You know, the books are called “A song of ice and fire”, there are strong evidences that Jon is both ice and fire, and the one and only textual reference to this mysterious “song of ice and fire” in over 5000 pages is Jon’s father talking about his not yet born son and saying : “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire”.
Well, when Beric was killed in the duel with the Hound, he pretty much popped up within minutes all “Wazzup men?” like a Weeble-wobble. So as long as the resurrection happens pretty quickly after death I would think Jon would physically be fine. Mentally/emotionally, I am looking forward to some changes in the less-teenage-angst and more-It’s Go Time! for Jon. Want his mopey curls and sad puppy eyes to be transformed into the Wolf That Was Promised.
Shadow Shifter,
It does not add up. We know she Said in ep 9 Will Walk among fallen Bolton banners. Plus meeting Arya again. Plus she is a huge mystery to all yet. Where her power comes from how old is she. She has also been spotted several times in Belfast through july to october now. She Will probably be in 5 episodes like Always. Noway in hell Are They killing her off. It would not make SENSE!!!
Styr me a nice juicy slice of ginger minge please,
You Said it. It does not add up. Mel isnt going anywhere
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Varys. 🙂
inspirat,
Yeah I think you’re right. It might be pretty tough to find a baby less than a month old and/or less than 10 lbs with brown eyes in Northern Ireland.
Aguero,
DOesn’t the L7R state the tower of joy season is episode 6 not that this ressurection is at that point?
Lord Parramandas,
How is Mel not responsible for Shireen’s death (along with Stannis for allowing it to happen). She is the one who told Stannis that he should burn her because it would help his army and she is the one that lit the pyre. If that’s not the very definition of responsibility, then no one is ever responsible for anything.
Moka,
Oh please he was talking about aegon who he clearly thought as the one …and he says this In a vision dany sees not Jon…and dany has already fulfilled the prophecy unlike Jon who has yet to dk anything like that
Other than that I agree that Jon and dany are the two main characters with tyrion arya and bran and others follow…it not about how many chapters but how much relevance and important they are to the story …
No don’t mean that, and i said i THINK they will do that because the writer said that he hated when in lord of the rings he turned some pages and the character was alive the same and nothing really happened.. i said Jon’s death has to matter because Martin didn’t do it just to make you buy his next book but for something to serve the story and the people who watch the show have to be given enough clues to understand this.
Nice, list….. and why we count the top 3? Because the dragon has to have three heads and everyone else is a character created in vain?
Nice to know they are the survivors also. Thanks George..that’s great info… (y)
Look guys if you want you can watch it as Jon’s story and or as Dany’s story or as everyone…. this doesn’t mean that everyone has to agree with you… i am sorry i don’t know how it ends, when it will end i will know who was the main one (if there is one) .. till then i will go with what the writer, directors and producers say…..
It does not have to be one or the other. Jon needs to be there. But Jon also has to evolve in response to this. Basically, it has to be a lot like what Daeny goes through in response to the Harpies trying to assassinate her despite her attempts to meet them halfway.
Not all protagonists are equal in this story! Jon and Daeny are the two main protagonists: they basically are 1 and A. Tyrion is a close third. Then Arya and Bran. Those five were the characters that GRRM intended to base the over-arching story from the start. He seems to have added Sansa not long after.
Other main characters (Jaime, Theon, Davos, Brienne, Cersei) were initially secondary characters or simply absent at the outset. Still others (Ned, Catelyn) dropped out by dying. They contribute to the individual stories: but they obviously cannot contribute as much to the overarching story simply because they were not there at the start.
So, there is no one main characters: but it’s like a sports team that has the starters and the bench/role players. Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Bran and Arya (and maybe Sansa) are the starting 5 or 6, the others come off of the bench sometimes.
Well, strictly speaking, Daeny meets criteria of the Prophecy that Jon does not meet. In particular, she meets those criteria that Mel tried to force onto Stannis. (Stannis came very close to fitting these criteria: but it was a little bit more of cramming him into the slot rather than him fitting neatly.)
So Jon is going to come back without anyone knowing he is R+L’s son? That makes even less sense. So he comes back to life and then 5 episodes later we see the TOJ? No.
I will bet anything that Jon is NOT resurrected in episode 1. It’s not going to happen.
Wimsey,
Meets them until we see how Jon is ‘reborn.’
Just as many people will know as already know. But why is it important that we know who’s son he is when he comes back? They are two unrelated issues.
I’ve been saying this for awhile: Melisandre will give Jon the kiss of life and sacrifice her life for his. Some of her spirit will remain in him when he is resurrected, hence her visions of walking along the battlements of Winterfell and meeting Arya again. She’s seeing these things through Jon’s eyes.
The Wall is not Dragonstone. Moreover, even if it is set up so that Jon meets the criteria, too, then that only means that two people meet them. It’s like there is supposed to be more than one or something…..
The Kiss of Life does not require sacrifice. Thoros revived Beric dozens of times without any sacrifice by himself or anyone else required.
To which he immediately adds that there has to be a third.
Jon has to be brought back in the first 2 eps, otherwise he’ll be rotting away by ep 5 and 6 which will be months past the airing.
Plus, what will Sansa do when she gets to CB and Jon isn’t back? (Yes, she IS going to CB, it goes against all logic and storytelling for her just to end up as a victim under LF yet again, she has a role to play now in the North.) What will Mel and Davos do? What will The wildlings/Wun Wun do? What will Thorne and co do? What are all these characters going to be doing until ep 5/6? Just sit around moaning about the weather and mourn about Jon until Mel feels like bringing back after months of waiting?
No. He’s coming back real early, otherwise the Northern plotline will be horribly paced if he and Sansa have to rush everything together in 3 eps or less to beat the Boltons.
Wimsey,
Well you’re not going to get me to argue that there’s ONE way to fulfill the prophecy. Just like I don’t even think that will come up MUCH later in the show, and only at a point where Jon and Dany have already by choice taken the fight on, basically making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
This show though has generally avoided all the endless prophecies of ASOIF, but the TOJ makes the prophecies relevant as it pertains to Jon.
Althoughhhh the question that intrigues me is who is seeing TOJ. Mel or Bran?
Luka Nieto,
Well, to be fair to the commenters here, L7R speculates ALOT instead of just reporting what they know and the speculation is mixed in with the factual reporting. Or perhaps its because many of us read it translated (really, Google? Littlefinger is translated as “Pinkie”). It’s hard to tell what’s what.
I think this post is important for all the Melisandre fans (myself included) to keep in mind. Carice has never been one of the actors with the most screen time, and time on set does not always equate to number of episodes. Actors who are in battle episodes, for example, will be on set waaay more than those who are only needed for dialogue/exposition/sexposition scenes. Example: wasn’t Lean Headey supposedly only filming for 2-3 weeks in season 2 or 3? I don’t remember if that was true or not, but regardless, she was still in 9 and 8 episodes those seasons.
If this information is true, does this mean that Melisandre is not present at the big battle we’ve read so much about? Probably, yes. But it doesn’t necessarily mean shes dead. Melisandre could easily resurrect Jon and then go elsewhere (she is supposed to meet up with Arya, after all), or stay in the walls of Castle Black or Winterfell. Coming back to the beginning of my post, lets keep in mind that Carice was only in 3 episodes of season 4. Obviously, she didn’t die that season.
Of course, another explanation is just that she dies resurrecting Jon, but a.) Thoros didn’t have to sacrifice himself with Beric, and b.) there still feels like theres so much more to explore with Melisandre’s character.
Keep reading about all these sightings/reports of Carice filming, but haven’t seen her mentioned in many posts on WotW. Can someone compile some of these reports so we can get a possible timeline on her?
Nadia,
You mean like the events where Berric came back seven times and there is a LSH running around ….
Tell me when his event will be a one time event in history
Hodors Bastard,
“Death’s Limboland” New album by the Resurrectors. I like it. Maybe that’s where your great Khal is!
Meanwhile, the brotherhood marches forth undefeated. Where is the Hound when you need him?
Have not read all the comments here, but I’m thinking the new hand is clearly Kevan. Baby- gonna guess it’s baby snow (filming the interior ToJ scene?)
And Ghost! I’ve never really given much credence to the Jon wargs into Ghost theory, but if he is indeed going to be “dead” for awhile (comatose?)- could we start seeing some “ghost-eye-view” shots a la Bran’s wolf dreams in season 1? At least until Mel figures her shit out? Could this be how Jon is introduced to his warg abilities? Could also run parallel to Arya’s blindness, and potentially also having wolf dreams………
I’m with you on this. The path to Jon 2.0 will not be as straightforward as the path that Beric/Thoros took and Mel may have to make the ultimate sacrifice in order to pursue her dreams of realizing AA. Furthermore, her resurrection “ceremony”, if it isn’t perfectly guarded by Ghost/Wun Wun, may be compromised as well by the vindictive nationalists. I also think that Bran/BR/old gods may be competing for mindmeld time with Mel and her red god, which may further complicate the procedure.
Nadia,
Toj pertains to Jon’s birth not any prophecies …two different things
It was seem by bran ..since both blood raven and bran present at the scene
That is not so crazy. A friend of mine suggested this to me years ago- if you need some Valaryian Steel swords, you’ve got a whole throne made of them (thousands, according to the books) If they’re not all Valaryian Steel, the Throne was at least forged with Dragonfire….
Melt it down!
dragonbringer,
If he’s the song of ice and fire then yes it does tie into prophecies – the prince that was promised sings that song.
dragonbringer,
You should take your tinfoil hat off. There’s no LSH on the show. And resurrections are not that normal that people will be like “eh no big deal.” The show has shown it once with Beric, seasons ago. You think they spent months playing up Jon Snow is dead, even using him to tease the season and get people hyped….and then resurrect him episode one? Yeah, no.
Nadia,
Other than born from two major families he is yet meet any of the conditions of the prophecy …and the prohecy states it clear its a dragon…and jon is not a dragon …a targ or a targ bastard …there is only one dragon in the dragon in the story and she is the last dragon…
I know its hard to change your opinions…i just hope same time next year this secret will be out of the bag and show makes it more obvious than the books
Hodors Bastard,
Also, didn’t Beric give his life for Cat’s?
I want to know what Shireen’s death was for. (shock value?) It didn’t serve Stannis— I’m holding out hope that her sacrifice shows some net positive return next season. (maybe I haven’t been paying attention….) But perhaps it will have some bearing on Mel’s treatment of Jon, maybe it has something to do with her Grayscale affliction. I also won’t be surprised if that is that for the Baratheon story…
Wimsey,
Also, it could be that neither are PTWP just yet. Just because Dany was born at Dragonstone doesn’t mean she’s the fulfillment of the prophecy.
“When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt.”
“Born again” = reborn. Those conditions could easily be met when Jon is resurrected.
I vote for episode 3 to Jon’s comeback. And at the end of episode. There will be some trolling by the directors i feel it.
Episode 1 will be his funeral, we all will see his burning and the episode ends. And a lot of fans be like…”WHAAAAAAAT!!!???”.
Episode 2: There will be no Wall scene. The top scene(and also the ending scene) will be Dany’s power demonstration above the khalasaar with Drogon.
And episode 3 will end with Jon’s reborn.
I hope he will walks out from the flames. The Lord of Light’s champion should be walk out from the flames.
And this all will happen because Mel does some bloodmagic by using Olly. (in the books she will burns Shireen for Jon i think)
Yes….that incident will be one of the greatest differences (and maybe the most divisive difference) between GoT and ASoI&F.
dragonbringer,
You’re also quite selectively interpreting. Do you think PTWP is Azor Ahai? Because Dany doesn’t have a flaming sword for AA. She’s not the song of ice and fire for PTWP. She doesn’t fulfill all the conditions until we know how Jon is reborn.
that’s also if you’re assuming somehow that the prophecy is determinative, which I’m pretty sure GRRM has shown it’s not. In the end, I will absolutely bet that Dany and Jon will choose to take on the fight, and THAT will make them PTWP / Azor Ahai, not that they were naturally born and destined to do it.
Basically they are the prophecy because they choose to be, and they both have particular characteristics that fit. Jon is going to be Jon, not some weird mythical warrior.
Nadia,
ok like u said it doesn’t matter for me when he comes back episode 2 or 1 or 5 or 6..but he will come back that’s for sure ..
And he is going to comeback by the efforts of Mel not some magic he does himself ..because like you said mel is shown to be known of berric coming back for a reason and she is now alive and back at the Wall for a reason..
I didn’t say its normal but there are others who have done the same many times than him….he is not unique in coming back to life since lots of other characters came back too ….
Phil Necro,
Jon burns, they made a big show of that in season 1. So either that was huge trolling misdirection from the writers, or they were giving a little dig at all the fans that think Jon will be reborn by fire.
Sister Kisser,
Shireen’s death was for clearing the snow.
Jon burns his hand in the first book too.
Daenerys burns too in DwD. Drogon burns her hand.
The dragons birth was just a one time magic thing. And now there is Melisandre for do something magic stuff to helps Jon.
A lot of fan don’t understand this burn thing.
And I suspect this is why D&D didn’t want to put a huge number of prophecies in the show: People spend an ABSURD amount of time discussing them instead of the actual characters.
That makes perfect sense. Littlefinger in Spanish is “Meñique”, which also means “pinkie”. There are no two different words for that.
Hodors Bastard,
She isnt dying for crying out loud she has been in and out of Belfast in several months. Noway They Are killing her off when she is still a mystery to all. Where does she come from, how old is she ect…
Nadia,
Yes I think both are same …we have Mel calling Stannis TPTWP twice in ASOS …and Maestar aemon telling what meets the conditions to become TPTWP ..
Dany brings the dragons from fire under the bleeding star and born amidst salt and smoke ..
Dragons were brought back to life through sacrifices of husband child and a witch. .
Dragons are called flaming swords in ADWD and in the same book when Jon reads about AA fighting a monster when he thrust the lughtbringer in the face of monster it burst into flames and eyes melted down ..very similar and word by word match of what happened at AStopor with kraznys..and she us called slayer of lies a lie that stannis was. .
Both will be fighting WW and main characters to the story but only one fulfills …ao far atleast ..
I dont see any red star that ia going to bleed or any flaming sword pulled out from fire by jon though …
Jon isn’t returning in one of the screener episodes. I don’t know why people are so shocked that he won’t return until midseason. I’ve felt for a while now that his return will coincide with the reveal of his parentage, in both the books and show. The Tower Of Joy scene is in episode 5 or 6, so that is a good guess for when Jon will return.
FreeParking,
Prophecies don’t really work in TV.
Take the ones in Qarth for example, they would have outright spoiled the RW and Robbs death.
Same with Mels vision of Snow. How do you even do this? Show Jon outright? It would have been way to obvious that Jon is somewhat special and that Mel’s faith in Stannis is wrong/mistaken.
Same with the Valanquar, it would have given away simply too much this will be just like the Pink letter, just what it seams to be.
Same with showing the Dosh Kahleen kneeling too Dany, it would have given away that she will meat the Dothraki again and they will join her.
Better let this things be a suprise, or put little hints, like Sam saying ”he always comes back”, having Mel return just before the assassination,…etc
I for one am glad they cut these.
Phil Necro,
If it was one time thing …how do you suppose there is going to be another event. …
Dany did the deed herself where as Jon is dead …huge difference
no matter who is there with him and what targ blood has in him he will burn like all before him who died if they put him in a pyre …
At least in one of the portrayals it was…sadly.
dragonbringer,
Longclaw was pulled from the tower that burned down after Jon killed the wight.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I belive it was confirmed that HBO will give fewer Episodes for screening this year, because last years leaks. At least that’s what I remenber.
To all those doubting the baby is Jon….. One reason that they would cast the baby so late in the game and/or wouldn’t want to film the baby with the major characters is because filming with a newborn is very difficult. First of all there are all kinds of legal limitations on how long they have the baby on set and film. The Adults can work for 12+ hour days but a baby is only allowed an hour or two in an entire day. Second babies are fussy and require a lot of reshoots. Most likely they shot all the adult actors in the TOJ internal scenes holding a doll of some sort. When they need close ups with a real baby, they’ll use the newborn and they can get those shots separately and splice them in. This happens all the time in filming.
Besides, Walda wasn’t far enough along to have a baby before the battle of WF. And while we may see Edmure we won’t probably see his wife and what significance would his child have anyway? They’re not going to waste time on Edmure’s baby.
Hodors Bastard,
Sister Kisser,
In every fantasy novel I’ve ever read or heard of, changing the weather has been portrayed as being very difficult, taking A LOT of magic to happen. So a sacrifice of such a magnitude may have been required. It may be that the main purpose in Shireen’s death was to make the snow melt, not for Stannis to take WF but for Mel to return to Jon where she was supposed to be all along. Remember they were trapped in the encampment not only by a lack of supplies but also by the horrible weather. Stannis couldn’t move without his army and Mel wasn’t going anywhere without Stannis. Once Shireen’s sacrifice caused the snow to melt and the troops deserted, Mel realizes she effed up and bet on the wrong horse, so she leaves him. Also, wasn’t the whole Azor Ahai legend based on the sacrifice of someone he loved to ensure his power and victory? So of course that’s where Mel’s thought processes took her. Could they have accomplished it some other way? No. Who else did Stannis love? Not his wife and not Davos. Shireen was the only one, so it had to be her.
I don’t think Shireen’s death was just for shock value. It was to melt the snows (explanation for change in weather as opposed to just deus ex machina, so plot), convince Mel she chose wrong (character development), to get Mel back to the Wall (plot), to show just how far Stannis would go to win (character development), and to get Stannis to the point where he could be removed him from the equation (plot). So while I REALLY didn’t like Shireen’s sacrifice, it does make sense.
Nadia,
Wimsey,
Actually, the idea of him being reborn and the idea of his parentage are only separate for now. IF he fulfills the prophecies THEN they will become linked. If not, then no. Hindsight is the only proper perspective for examining prohpecies because of their vagueness and even then we run into the chicken/egg conundrum.
As for the time lapse between resurrection and TOJ….at first the idea bothered me but I think that it will actually be a good thing. All the non-readers will be so relieved to see Jon back alive and by the middle of the Season they will have settled down, expecting him to continue as just another character. Then bam, the pot is stirred again mid-season by the reveal of his parentage. If Jon is important to the end game they need to keep periodically reminding the audience. With Dany it’s easy, she has Dragons and she’s the legitimate Targ heir. Jon’s just a bastard, so far as they know. So why spend so much time on him? They have to keep throwing out crumbs as to why.
What intrigues me is what are they going to do with the rest of the assumed dragonhead triumverate to coincide with this? Particularly since so many highs and lows in Dany’s story has tracked with Jon’s. I’m going to release a video with my S6 speculation soon. If I can find time away from turkey, family, sleep, etc. 🙂
Who’s crying? There is no way they are disposing of Selmy either. He’s still relevant for fuck’s sake! 🙂
Luka Nieto,
I know that but Littlefinger is capitalized. One would never capitalize pinkie. Or, maybe they would if one’s nickname were Pinkie…. It’s just humorous.
Dame Pasty,
Exacly my toughts on Shireens sacrifice!!
I was sad, when she died, but I was sad when Robb/Ned died. But it made perfect sense and I tought it was good storrytelling and great drama.
I can’t see how Sansa could reach CB, seriously. She’s alone (She and Theon separate early on in the season), she has no food, no weapons, nobody to protect her, and Ramsay and his 20 good men are likely to chase after her. THAT would go against all logic.
Beside, we know she arrives at Snowbowl with LF and the Valemen. What would be the point of having her in CB if she goes back south anyway.
I guess, either she’s rescued by Brienne and Pod before separating from them when they go to Riverrun, or she’s found by the Vale army. LF was last seen in episode 7 in season 5, it gives him plenty of time to arrive North in episode 1 or 2 of season 6. Sansa being under LF’s influence is her story in the book, I don’t know why people expect her to be totally freed of him from now on in the the show.
I still have doubt about Jon being resurrected in episode 5, but if he wargs into Ghost and we have some dreams/visions with Kit before that, it can be really cool. His body won’t be rotting if Mel keeps it in ice, which doesn’t lack around CB. If Mel dies in episode 5 or 6, she could still have 3 or 4 episodes, like every seasons.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Agree, it makes lots of sense to me that it would NOT be right away, nor would it happen so removed from the TOJ. I think Bran plays some part in Jon’s resurrection (not just Mel), and I think it’s all tied. It would be strange for him to be brought to life and then randomly five episodes later Bran sees TOJ.
I really think anyone who thinks Jon’s just going to pop right back up right away is going to be disappointed.
dragonbringer,
Because. Of. Blood. Magic. By. Drogo. And. Mirri, Maz, Duur.
Dany ”pay” for her life and for the dragons with them. She burns them, so R’hllor doesn’t hurt her.
That’s gonna happen with Jon too. Melisandre use some magic and sacrifice Shireen in the books. In the series she will use Olly somehow.
Hodors Bastard,
Comparing Mel and Selmy is ridiculous.
Selmy wasn’t relevent, ever, his lack of screen-time proves it. They never intended to make him a major character.
And it was quite obvious he would die the moment we knew Tyrion would get too Meereen.
It’s adaptation 101, you give the most screen time to major/important characters.
So it should suprise no one that they gave a chunk of that story too Tyrion, who is a fan-favourite, rather then too a character 90% of people, don’t even care for.
Mihnea,
I know! I mean, any scene that you can recall minute details of many months after having seen it (and I only watched it once) like the sound of her screams, is good drama. Poor baby girl.
Grenouille,
THANK YOU. I don’t know how the hell everyone expects her to get to Castle Black – especially if the Umbers ARE siding with the Boltons. It makes the most sense for Sansa to be with the Vale. She’s been seen filming with LF and as much as we’d like it, her story line with LF is not done, not by a long shot. Given the conversation with Cersei, it’s clearly LF’s aims are to head north. He might not engage in battle yet, but it’s very easy (with this show’s travel timeline) that he’s not so far that he couldn’t reunite with Sansa. Especially if she makes Brienne take her there.
The reference to Jon could simply be that she hears Jon’s been killed. Or that he’s been brought back. Or that she hears he’s marching south and LF thinks that’s the perfect time for the Vale to join in. Frankly that scene with Sansa, Jon, LF, and Ramsay makes more sense to me if Sansa/Lf are there separately. Perhaps that’s where she meets Jon for the first time, since there’s not really any indication she’s filmed at the Wall sets.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Where was the bleeding star when he pulled …
Berric had a flaming sword in his hand and thoros also used to carry will that make them also AAr
Its nice to match something the way you want ..
He never really sacrificed anything for it and it was given to him as a gift and there are many Valyrian swords out there in westeros…which does not makes neither what he did or his sword as an unique event
Sure…I can’t disagree with that rationale. However, I don’t think the weather will improve in TWoW and I don’t think Stannis will make the decision to burn Shireen in TWoW. That is all on Mel in TWoW, imho, perhaps in desperation after the pink letter is received/read by her and definitely after FTW, for whatever AA reason. I can’t speak for SK, but the “shock value” I adhere to is the “who” behind the decision to sacrifice Shireen….two very different scenarios between show and book.
dragonbringer,
? If you’re saying the dragons are the flaming sword, there was no bleeding star when the dragons were born either? You’re conflating things to suit Dany’s prophecy but taking it apart to suit Jon.
“When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt.” That can easily happen when Jon is resurrected. And his sword could be with him, who knows.
dragonbringer,
I always tought that Lightbringer won’t be a sword, but rather Dany’s dragons or one of them.
She hatches them from fire.
After she killed Drogo.
The person she loved…
Hodors Bastard,
You see, too me that would be ”shock value”, Mel burning her to save Stannis, and of course failing.
The shows version to me is much more dramatic.
Yes, it is…hence my 🙂 . Although, I will argue that Selmy has more PoV time than Mel…so no it isn’t. 🙂
Hodors Bastard,
Mel is a central character in Stannis’s story, and Jon’s now.
While Selmy…doesn’t really do anything besides…being there.
Of course he has some story. But it was given too Tyrion/Varys two major characters and fan-favourites.
Thats what I mean, he gets ”important” in the last bit of ADWD and this story was given too Tyrion because he is a bigger character.
Like I said its adaptation 101, you give more story to more important characters, rather then having 100 minor ones.
Phil Necro,
Do you really don’t see the difference.
Yes it was because of blood magic and sacrifices …which dany made ..
She knows what she is doing and what will be the outcome…
Here Jon is just dead …all the things will be done by Mel who will be similar to dany …
And jon will be similar to drogo. ..and unless I forgot I didnt see Drogo walked out of the fire alive ….
And what’s worse he doesn’t even know the life’s sacrificed for him to come back where as dany gets her hand dirty and burns a witch herself ..
Why bother with all this when Mel knows praying to her god will bring him back ..
If she burns him then he will born like all the ones who had kings blood especially well since he is dead ….
We don’t really know that she does it for “Stannis” in TWoW. Her story is about AA and who/what she thinks will benefit the most from her support.
I won’t pursue the Selmy comparison. It is all about intention, support and respect from my perspective. Selmy is selflessly supporting a Targ return to power; Mel is selfishly supporting a God’s possible return from the stars.
Nadia,
Are you talking about show or the books …
The red comet was known as bleeding star which was never seen before at least for a a seventy years..
Since master cresson sees that and connects that into the prophecies …
Why don’t you quote the next line from the books …” When the red star bleeds and darkness gathers Azor Ahai born amidst salt and smoke to wake dragons form stone”….
Are you intentionally leaving that waking the dragons part out
Again iam talking about what has already happened and five books full of clues and foreshadowings…
Not on something that may happen or not happen in future ..
dragonbringer,
Get it. But you wrong at one point.
I think this firebloodmagic stuff works only with the Targaryens. Because they are the personify of the fire, of R’hllor.
So i still believe in that Jon will walks out from the flames because the ”kissing him and then he reborn” scene would be so simple and lame.
We don’t know that.
dragonbringer,
Prophecy is a sword without a hilt, and whatnot. If you think George is being literal with all of the prophecies, then you are mistaken. I have said before that I believe Jon and Dany are both AA/Tpwwp. It is ignorant to not see how Jon’s story from the start has been connected to the fight against the Others, and leading him to try to find any way to defeat them and save humanity. How Melisandre, whose powers are magnified at the Wall, is shown Jon when she asks for a glimpse of AA. How Jon has a dream where he is wielding a sword that burns red, just like Lightbringer, and nothing like Beric and Thoros’ flaming sword, which is simply on fire. Lightbringer emanated heat, but it wasn’t on fire, according to legend(which we can’t completely trust, but still). The clues are there for Jon as well as Dany.
Mihnea,
Yes under the bleeding star too..
And one thingqith dany and prophecies is that she reverses the gender
Its princess not prince ..
Its wife killing husband ( moon of my life (nissa nissa) killing sun and stars ( aar))..
Its a khalleesi not the khal who is going to be khal of khals
Hodors Bastard,
I definitely wonder how that will play out in the book. You may be right. It will probably be Mel’s decision to have Shireen sacrificed (one of her foaming-at-the-mouth followers and/or Selyse will do the deed, no doubt). I wonder if Selyse will regret it afterward and kill herself in the book too. But afterward, Stannis will find out and when he does, what do you think he will do? I’m betting he will be angry at first but just like in the show, he’ll grudingly accept it without doing any harm to Mel. Because Stannis’ reasoning and his motives in both the book and the show will be the same. And if that’s the case, is he any less morally responsible? IF it happens this way in the book, he will be accepting that it is/was a necessary sacrifice. I think it’s splitting hairs to say because he accepted it after the fact in the book it’s not as reprehensible as him allowing it to happen contemporaneously in the show. And this reasoning doesn’t take into account the fact that if it weren’t for him Mel wouldn’t have so much power or the latitude to wield that power in the first place. I think in both the show and the book, both Mel and Stannis are both equally responsible and are just as morally repugnant. But that’s my own ethos and I can understand if you, and others, think differently.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Yeah its nice thing to say when Jon doesn’t meet anything literal …
Prophecies are double edged swords alright but you don’t change contents of the prophecy …we may wrongly interrupt it bug it happens exactly the prophecy states…he will pull the flaming sword when red star bleeds..
I have one who does that exactly ..
What was the great sacrifice he made to get that sword …
It nice to bring this argument about one should not take literal
But its forgotten when say claiming that he was literally song of ice and fire and literal sword from fire …
There is no denying that Jon is a major player in this story along with dany ..and will be a huge part of war against others …
But he is all these things without any prophecies to him…i will gladly accept jon is the one…if people dont try to fit him whenver they see words like sword bleed smoke salt and etc…
I believed he was tpwtwp and dany AAR first time when I read…but not now after many reads ….
We do not, in fact, know that. We know she’s at Snowbowl. There have been no signs that Aidan Gillen was filming there, nor any photos or set reports of Valemen present. That does not preclude it, by any means, but it’s purely speculative.
Sansa will either end up at Castle Black or with the Vale army; at this point, neither can be ruled out. My main quibble with the latter option is that if Littlefinger’s army is in the North that quickly, what exactly is he doing all season? Ramsay still has a huge army to fight Jon with at Snowbowl and if the Boltons had already been mauled and lost Winterfell by that point, that seems like a major lowering of the stakes in that contest.
mau,
Yes we do.
Littlefinger wants the North in the books and in the series as well. He will fight for Sansa. Only with her could he rule over the North. He want to go to the North to fight a long ago. If Stannis would have been the winner or the Boltons. He want to defeat the winner. The Boltons won. He will go to defeat them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lcx8gAM6wM – watch it from 3:30
Phil Necro,
Like you said Targs burned well enough alive and dead ones…targs at summerhall also burned well with all the witches dying …
What happened with dany is one time event and an unique one…which makes it special …
And I think it will be lame to make Jon walk out of fire and think it will diminish one of the best moments of the books and ine of the best books endings i have ever read
dragonbringer,
Yes they burned because there was no magic used. That’s why they burned.
Dany used Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo and the dragon eggs for magic.
And Jon is lucky with Melisandre, who will use Shireen/Olly and her ability…:)
But that was different: Thoros refused to revive her, so Beric basically transferred his revival to her. Thoros did not have to sacrifice anything or anyone to revive Beric, and that means that Mel should not have to do so to revive Jon.
It was a means to an end: winter was destroying Stannis’ army, and one truth our own histories provide is that no tactical skills from any generals can defeat extreme weather. Mel had seen a defeated Bolton army and she had seen herself at Winterfell. Given these two future facts, by far the simplest inference was that Stannis was going to be successful. After all, who else was going to defeat the Boltons? Who else was going to get her to Winterfell? But if that snow did not end soon, then those things were not going to happen: so Mel had to take action in order to be loyal to the god-type-thingy that is giving her these visions in the first place.
Ironically, burning Shireen might well lead to all of that. Stannis’ suicide attack helped Sansa escape, and that might be what gets the Boltons out of Winterfell to get defeated. The immediate collapse of Stannis’ army led to Melissandre returning to the Wall, and that in turn will be what saves Jon from truly dying. Thus, there will almost certainly be some “net positive” (although I caution against thinking of anything as “positive” or “negative”: things should have impacts) next year.
Phil Necro,
You misapprehend the point that was being made. It was not disputed that Baelish is going to come North (other than a few people convinced that he was going to invade the Riverlands for some reason, that was generally assumed about this season from the start). But we do not have any spoilers that Littlefinger and the Valemen are at Snowbowl, or that Sansa arrives with them — and by spoilers I mean reports from reliable sources like this site or which have photographic proofs; you can find supposed Reddit set reports asserting this, and they may even be true, but without confirmatory evidence I don’t count those as spoilers.
Oh, he is being literal alright. But he is being ironic as well, and you cannot be ironic without being literal.
Wow…you think Stannis has any further communication with CB (Mel/Shireen/Selyse) in TWoW? I guess this is a basic difference between us. I believe that the pink letter is true and there is a major timeline overlap between ADwD and TWoW. Stannis will suffer a surprise attack or major betrayal and be killed during Theon II (during which Asha and Theon escape). Mel has realized this after FTW and all her efforts are redirected toward Jon….her new AA…and hence her presumed destiny…
dragonbringer,
I have stated how Jon meets some of the prophecy already. You disagree, and that’s fine. Dany is AA, there is no doubt, it is the interpretation that there is only one AA/pwwp that I don’t agree with.
I’m not arguing against Dany being one of the AA’s. I am just using your argument against you. I could say Dany didn’t sacrifice anything either. She killed a brain dead Drogo, only after using blood magic to keep him from dying. She didn’t knowingly sacrifice her unborn baby either. But none of this matters, because only the story of AA speaks of him sacrificing his wife to forge Lightbringer. The prophecy that speaks of a person being reborn as AA does not mention anything of sacrifice.
Only time will tell, and even then, I don’t expect GRRM to ever reveal who the prophecy truly spoke of, at least not within the books. I like leaving it up to interpretation, and letting the story unfold.
dragonbringer,
Some people seems to try to fit Jon into everything much like some other people see connections, foreshadowing for romance between Jon and Daeny. Well there is couple of hints like wielding a sword that canbe described as lightbringer or Mel’s vision about R’hllor showing her AAR While I think Daeny is AAR so we can add yet another title to every growing group of them and Drogon Stallion..but PtwP.
In the books her vision about Rhaegar/Aegon and Elia was that his is the song of ice and fire. Still interesting why they make Daeny fireproof. It can’t be because of her being the last dragon, targaryen or AAR. Rhaegar was thought to be the last dragon and he burned on the pyre, bunch of other targaryens weren’t this and aar was never described like that if i’m not mistaken, right?
I wonder why they cut out Aemon’s conversation with Mel. He did talked about Daeny, but only with Sam. Regarding aar prophecy. Of course they try to stay away from as many prophecies or visions as they can. They cut a large part of from Hotu. In books we expect Daeny to slay Aegon(mummer’s dragon smilling in the middle of the crowd ) and Stannis (blue eyed king that cast no shadows), but that’s not gonna happen on the show. Just like they cut out fire she will light, treasons and mounts. Although mounts literally could be Silver, Drogon…Daeny ride Silver and Drogon n the books and the show and the third who knows? But I saw people speculate about Ghost, but he’s not one for riding. That would be terrible like Jon riding Drogon. He belongs to Jon as much as Daeny to Drogon.
I’m not sure who said something about wanting to see Mel actually fighting in the battle but I agree. I’m not a huge fan of her since she’s always been a bit of a dick to Davos and she burned Shireen… but she might gain some points if A. She brings Jon back and B. Goes all fire mage on the Boltons.
Hodors Bastard,
Ohhhh, I had forgotten she wasn’t with Stannis but back at the Wall. Hmmmmm, well crap…there goes my theory. Either way, he helped to create Mel the Monster and he is still partially responsible for any people that she kills. Can you tell that I really don’t like Stannis? 😉
My bet is that she will do it to “save” Stannis’ army at Selyse’s behest. One thing that we’ve not worried too much about is how Selyse is going to react upon learning that Ramsay wiped out her husband’s army. I really doubt that she will accept that it is true: and there are many ways that could lead to a chain of events where Selyse toasts her daughter to “save” her already dead husband. (I expect that Queen Stick-Up-Her-Rectum will perish about the same time.)
I also am betting that this will be connected to the final straw that makes Mel realize that she badly misinterpreted R’hllor’s messages to her.
!Gasp! That had gone completely over my head!
😀
I am not sure who/what I blame for Melissandre. She’s given snippets of the future, and she actually does a pretty good job of making inferences from them. And she is not to blame for the fact that R’hllor rewards its little bald monkeys with banana pellets of vague truths in exchange for (other) roast monkeys. Whatever R’hllor is, it is working for itself: and it’s using humans the same way that we use pack animals. If it had not sent Mel these visions, then a lot of these things would not have happened. But do you blame something that is not going to see humans as anything other than pack animals? (I suppose some sort of Mt. Olympus PETA analog might do so!)
Sean C.,
Yes, it has been reported by several legit sources from different places.
There was this first report from reddit than nobody wanted to believe despite him having provided an on-set picture later posted here, yet almost all his informations have been confirmed right here and at L7R.
There was the source at WIC.
And there also was an extra who posted about his experience filming at snowbowl in a forum not related to GOT, he wasn’t even spilling spoilers, he just happened to tell a little anecdote of Sansa and little finger having their golf buggy stuck in the mud before arriving on set, inadvertently revealing LF presence. He also said Sansa was the only female on set, apart from some wildling women extra, so I guess it rules out Mel being present there. I won’t post his report because there’s a pic of his face with his Umber outfit, and I don’t think my comment would pass moderation anyway, but with a little google search with key words from above, you could find him I guess.
I would say that the 10-12 “main” characters on the show at this point (i.e. the ones getting their own storylines) are strongly consistent with the 10-12 “main” characters in the novels (i.e. the ones who get the most POV chapters). That doesn’t mean all of those “main” characters are equally important (as Wimsey would say, Jon and Dany are likely the central two figures driving the main story of the series, with Tyrion a close third). But they’re all important enough for both the show and the books to spend as much time on them as they have.
There are a few discrepancies, of course. Whether or not you think they’ve been “well-serviced”, certain non-POV characters (Stannis, Robb, Tywin, Margaery, Varys, Littlefinger, Jorah, Melisandre* etc.) have risen to greater prominence on the show either because they’re in positions of power, or because they simply well-suited for television. Other characters (Bran, most notably) have taken a hit because their story doesn’t translate quite as well. But as we head into both Season 6 and eventually TWOW, the two versions of this story are pretty closely aligned – as you would hope they would be.
*I know that Melisandre is technically a POV character, but she’s has only one such chapter to date. For the purposes of this discussion, that barely counts.
Top 12 Living** Characters in ASOIAF by POV chapter count at the end of A Dance with Dragons
Tyrion Lannister (9+15+11+0+12 = 47)
Jon Snow (9+8+12+0+13 = 42)
Arya Stark (5+10+13+3+2 = 33)
Daenerys Targaryen (10+5+6+0+10 = 31)
Sansa Stark (6+8+7+3+0 = 24)
Bran Stark (7+7+4+0+3 = 21)
Jaime Lannister (0+0+9+7+1 = 17)
Theon Greyjoy (0+6+0+0+7 = 13)
Davos Seaworth (0+3+6+0+4 = 13)
Cersei Lannister (0+0+0+10+2 = 12)
Samwell Tarly (0+0+5+5+0 = 10)
Brienne of Tarth (0+0+0+8+0 = 8)
**I removed Catelyn Stark (11+7+7+0+0 = 25) and Ned Stark (15+0+0+0+0 = 15) because the characters are deceased or – at least in the case of Catelyn – unlikely to have any more POV chapters for the rest of the series. I included Jon because I suspect he will still have POV chapters once he returns.
Confirmed Storylines for Season 6
Meereen (Lead Character: Tyrion Lannister)
The Wall and the North (Lead Character: Jon Snow)
Braavos (Lead Character: Arya Stark)
The Dothraki Sea (Lead Character: Daenerys Targaryen)
Winterfell and the North (Lead Character: Sansa Stark)
Beyond the Wall/Flashbacks (Lead Character: Bran Stark)
The Riverlands (Lead Character: Jaime Lannister)
The Iron Islands (Lead Character: Theon Greyjoy)
King’s Landing (Lead Character: Cersei Lannister)
Oldtown and the Reach (Lead Character: Samwell Tarly)
Dorne (POV: Unknown, but this is unlikely to be a major storyline)
I’d say those two lists match up pretty damn well. Davos and Brienne are the only two living characters in the Top 12 for ASOIAF POV chapter count who don’t appear to have their own unique storylines in Season 6. But they will likely play major supporting roles in Jon, Sansa, and Jaime’s stories this year.
Note that all of those characters made their debut in either AGOT or ACOK, or in the first or second season of Game of Thrones. With the exception of Cersei and Brienne, they all became POV characters by ASOS.
No other living character in ASOIAF has more than four POV chapters to date (which makesit easier for the show to cut them, if necessary). That doesn’t mean that various characters that became POV characters in AFFC/ADWD are irrelevant, but regardless of what anyone thinks of them, they are clearly secondary players in the larger story.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I would accept if Jon is also the one if not all his points are forced to make him fit somehow…I will gladly admit he is also the one …after all I like him too
I have seen people who call dany as red herring and her only purpose is to give jon drogon…so u can understand my response to this kind of arguement
I hope we get answers and at least in the show we will get an clear answer
Geralt of Rivia,
Well Jon and dany pairing comes from HOtU and their story structures and parallels they have with one another …
No AAr was not described like that buy who knows he was not one….after all what can be a great clue of being a champion of fire than being fireproof…
I would like to look it has something like this that dany is the version of Rhaegar viserys abd Rhego …she will be able to do what these three couldnt ..and hence she is reffered to as daughter of death..
Dany is unique unlike other characters ..she is magic maybe bran can equal her in magic …
We will be getting the prophecies in next season …if AAr and tPTwp and tSWMW are all the same version of one prophecy like I believe then show is going for an apt name ThE ONE who was promised
I always took those as metaphorical slaying …that she will be slaying the lies taht stannis AAr and YG as a real dragon …she will be proving that she is a real deal when she succeeds at what these two will be failing …
And we will be getting all the visions also ..we simply don’t knlw what those are and when will that happen ..
That dany ghost thing you saw must be to annoy Jon super fans who keep on starting threads about Jon getting drogon in westros.org …I would not take that seriously …
Sean C.,
I’m pretty sure those supposed reddit sources are the same people who provided that picture of the banners. I’m not sure why you are so unwilling to accept this. It’s not one random guy saying something totally random either. Sansa/Littlefinger film a scene near/at Winterfell. He’s there for whatever that Jon/Ramsay/Sansa/LF scene is. We know he’s headed North.
On the flip side, if Jon is resurrected right away, what the hell is Sansa doing all season? I’m sure she’s not just going to sit at CB and rally the Wildlings with Jon. Those northern lords are barely filming, so she’s not going around rallying them as a major plotline. As it is, would Jon send her out on her own to do that anyway? You think they’re going off together to rally the North? I HIGHLY doubt that, and again, there aren’t enough scenes of Northern lords being filmed. And if Jon is resurrected later, what the hell is she going to do at CB for 4/5 episodes? If the Umbers are with the Boltons, how does she get to the Wall?
Sansa’s story in the books and I’ll bet everything in the show is still tied to LF, for the time being. Lord Royce is filming soon apparently. I warrant we’ll see Sophie filming around then too.
Wimsey,
But she isn’t a pack animal. She has a will of her own. She can give R’hllor the great big middle finger. I certainly would. He can kill me or whatever but I’d be damned if I would spend my life wandering around killing people for those vague crumbs. If I felt compelled to help save the world, I wouldn’t rely on R’hllor to do it. Particularly since the outcomes have been dubious at best and tend to make the innocent suffer. Can you tell I’m very anti-religion too? LOL
Michael,
Just because she said it, it doesn’t mean it will come true. Remember that this is the same woman who said Stannis is AAR. We know she can be way off in her prophecies.
I don’t want to get into another Dany-Jon debate but unfortunately, Dany isn’t coming to Westeros anytime soon.
Exactly. Until a place like this site confirms LF and the men of the Vale are at Snowbowl, I consider it an unsubstantiated rumor. Not that absolutely everything posted on reddit is bullshit, but, well, it’s reddit, so I take anything from there with a grain of salt until it is otherwise confirmed. The same goes for anything people get from WIC. Not everything posted there is bullshit, either, but that’s the site which, not so long ago, had an article regarding Jason Momoa returning to GoT, proceeded to post pictures as confirmation, but, of course, the pictures posted were of someone who quite obviously was NOT Jason Momoa.
Nadia,
Where have I been unwilling to accept this? I’ve stated it’s possible (and certainly, if you begin with the premise that the writers will try to put Sansa back in something as akin as possible to her book plot after the Jeyne Poole detour, the Vale army option has a strong case), but that to date there isn’t sufficient evidence to conclude either way (the fact that they film at Winterfell at some point doesn’t prove anything about when they meet, merely that they do at some point, which was a given).
Grenouille earlier offered one source I’d never heard of for a contention of Littlefinger being at Snowbowl (since it’s unreported, obviously low-key). If true, that’s another indicator in its favour.
As to what the hypothetical Sansa-goes-to-Castle-Black starting point would entail, one imagines that reuniting the characters would warrant some time, before things turned to what to do next (e.g., the question of Rickon, finding support, etc). There would certainly not be less potential material than the alternative option.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
What I don’t understand is – at this point it’s even MORE speculative to say that Sansa ends up at CB. Despite the many reasons listed why that wouldn’t work (practical reasons, story lines that tie in with her book), people are acting like that’s the most likely and default scenario. Based on what? One sentence last season that can become relevant in many different ways?
Meanwhile there’s NO proof Kit and Sophie have filmed together aside from the battle. And there is some proof she’s filmed with Littlefinger.
People don’t believe Sansa w/ LF at the battle or the Vale at the battle because there’s no confirmation of filming here. Fine. Yet they’re fine assuming she’s at CB with NO confirmation of that either, that’s something that is pure speculation, and yet people are acting like that’s so given. It’s absurd.
Sean C.,
Go back and read old threads. You and I have gone back and forth on this endlessly, and you’ve been firm that Sansa is going to CB.
And yet, THAT is the theory that has absolutely NO filming proof. None. You don’t want to believe the Vale story because of the lack of evidence on this site (despite knowing that Sansa and LF film at Winterfell). But you’re ok assuming she makes it to Castle Black based on even LESS filming information – actually zero information. Based on what? One sentence last season that could come into play a ton of different less obvious ways – ie, Ramsay assumes she’s going to CB and sends a letter to Jon about Stannis’ death and Sansa but she’s not actually going there?
Nadia,
I tend to be one who, while I do think some scenarios are more likely than others, don’t set something in my mind as a certainty unless there is irrefutable confirmation. Much of that is just a kind of self-preservation, in that I try not to set myself up to think something is definitely going to happen a certain way. I try to leave myself open, and that way I’m not terribly disappointed if something doesn’t happen the way I think it should. That doesn’t mean I think my way is the “right” way…different people approach things in different ways.
I’m actually one who doesn’t think Sansa will make it all the way to CB, and that’s simply because of geography. To get to CB from Winterfell means going through Umber territory. While I do not believe the Umbers will side with the Boltons, unless it is with the express purpose of betraying them, whichever side the Umbers are truly on, I don’t see Sansa passing through their territory unimpeded.
Supposition or whatever- I actually do think that Jons resurrection would indeed have the maximum dramatic impact if it coincided with the revelation that he is Targ (or even TPTWP/AA) and if that isn’t until episode 5/6 then so be it.
For those that say he’ll have decomposed- he won’t if he’s kept on ice for whatever reason.
Also- you forget that not all of the events in the show are necessarily in sequence or indeed happening at the same time even if they’re on the same episode. Mels journey to the Wall would’ve taken at least two weeks but it was only half an episode gap. So IF for example Sansa is making Her way to CB (say she’s with Brienne) she’d be arriving a few days after Melisandre at most. Think about it- Mel left the night before the battle with the Boltons. That’s the same day Sansa escaped. So whilst we could in theory have a few episodes of Sansa travelling to CB (if that’s what happens for example) this can all happen in those first few episodes with no scenes at the Wall. We won’t need to see wildlings with nothing to do- we don’t really need to see the anything at the Wall until something of consequence happens such as Jons funeral. Which btw would have most dramatic impact if Sansa were (hypothetically) to arrive at the very moment of the pyre being lit.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Exactly (to your latter point). I think it’s somewhat odd that certain posters here are just positioning it as a complete given that Sansa will go to Jon. Forget how difficult physically it would be to get there. Forget that Ramsay would automatically assume that’s where she’s going. It also has no evidence in filming news or in what she’d be doing for a whole season that is so epic.
If you don’t believe the Vale or Baelish is at BastardBowl because WotW hasn’t confirmed it, how can one be so sure she’ll go to CB? that’s more speculation than just about anything else, with lots to disprove it.
I think it’s far more likely that she never gets to CB than she ends up going there.
And don’t get me wrong, I want nothing more in the world than Sansa going to Jon, having him resurrected, and them plotting the events of the season together. But I just don’t think that’s going to happen. It seems far more likely that they meet much later – perhaps in that exciting scene we’re all speculating about.
The bleeding star (comet) appeared at almost exactly the same time the dragons hatched. Osha even mentions it on the show (can’t recall if its in the books).
Sean C.,
Nadia is right that the reddit source provided the picture of the banners. It’s a legit on-set pic, confirmed here, that’s one of the proof you’re asking for. I remember back when this pic was posted on this site, I posted a link toward all the posts of the reddit source. My comment awaited moderation for several hours, until all the spoilers from reddit were deleted. Five minutes later my comment was accepted here, leading to empty deleted posts lol ! I understand why it was done, for me it was clear proof that it was legit, and I’m sure others posters here tried to link the same things than me…
I understand that you prefer to stay cautious, but until said otherwise, we have more sources telling us that LF/The Vale are at Snowbowl than the contrary.
Out of curiosity, what else would Lord Royce be filming that anyone really cares about unless it relates to BastardBowl? I don’t think the Vale is enough of a story line that it would have its own filming plot unless Sansa was there. Not even sure LF can sustain it. `
To profusely and annoyingly belabor the point, this is where I strongly disagree. There will be a difference with Jon, with serious ramifications, if not because of the old gods-red god tug-of-war then because of vindictive 3rd-party activity. Mel may start the procedure cleanly but it won’t end cleanly, imho.
Also, I believe those ramifications (deaths/sacrifices, etc.) will heavily contribute to the idea you raised yesterday regarding Jon 2.0’s insecurities and/or reluctant acceptance of his own fate.
From my perspective, decay of his mind/self would be independent of his physical self. His body may be preserved but his mind will unravel in limboland if not anchored back to his body in a reasonable amount of time.
Just putting things out there- mechanisms for Sansa to get to CB are: Brienne, Northern folks, Asha/Ironborn, Branraven guiding them (or using Ravens or even wolves to protect or hide them). Tinfoilish but not impossible.
Another possibility- has anyone considered that perhaps she does meet LF/Valemen and together THEY rally the North? LF would never go to battle against the Boltons on their lands, in winter, unless he’s guaranteed to win. He’d need the Northern Lords at his back to do this and he knows it.
Apollo,
I mean obviously Brienne is a mechanism, but is it plausible? There’s still the physical and locational challenges.
And yes, I think it’s far more likely that Sansa rallies the North (from/with the Vale) than Jon does, with the Wildlings at his back. It fits her “epic” arc. It explains why she and LF would be talking to Jon and Ramsay (ie she’s not a Jon Snow tag along or insists to go with him, she goes because she’s a symbol for a big Northern force). It gets her back with LF and the Vale. And the news about Jon being Lord Commander can be relevant in many ways that don’t have to do with her trekking through the North all the way to Castle Black with just Brienne and Pod.
Why are you reacting like that?
I was answering to the people who think that Jon won’t come back until episode 6, and I said that it makes no sense because he is one of the main characters (and probably THE main character, considering his parentage both ice and fire, the prophecies and what he has achieved with the white walkers). No need to jump down my throat like that, I never said that the other characters are useless or not important. I love Jon but also Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Brienne, Cersei… But it’s a fact that Jon is one of the 3 (or 4, 5 or 7 if you prefer) main characters of the show in terms of importance.
From Jon’s birth:
That blood streaked sky is very likely a comet.
GRRM has used prophesies in interesting ways thus far. We have Cercei who is basically a self fulfilling prophesy because she is trying so hard to avoid a prophesy, and we have Meliandre who is recreating a prophesy, but because of her fanatical wish to fulfill the prophesy she is doing it incorrectly.
Using that as an example there is no reason to believe that the Azor Ahai or The Prince that was Promised prophesies will ever be straight forward. GRRM has spent a lot of time throughout the story to really show us how human these characters are. It would be slightly contradicting to change them into these messiahs.
I hope we will never really learn who the prophesied hero is.
Although I think it would be amusing if someone like Rheagar was actually the Prince that was Promised.
Bran is the one who will experience the ToJ scene. There is really nothing to indicate that Jon specifically needs to learn about his parentage at this stage.
In fact I think it is far more likely that we as the audience will known Jon’s parentage as a fact, while Jon himself might only find out in season 7.
It just adds another layer of interest in a character when the audience knows something, that the character has yet to discover.
Therefore I dont think Jon’s resurrection and the ToJ scene will be connected at this stage.
There is also no reason for them to delay Jon’s resurrection. They have already created a year’s worth of suspense, he has a story that will take some time to tell. If they leave Jon’s resurrection until episode five or six it would just be another cliche to create more artificial suspense.
They have already released Jon’s face on a season six poster there is no reason for further delays, any further delays will just be eye-rolling.
And when looking at the laws within the universe of the story, it would be impossible or very problematic to wait too long with his resurrection.
Littlefinger wants the North because he has Sansa, and she is his direct access to the North. That does not mean that Littlefinger will arrive North with a whole army. He would not need to do that.
If Sansa, Jon and Rickon won the North then Littlefinger just has to pitch up at Winterfell and renew acquaintance/ alliance/ friendship with Sansa.
This plan would appeal to him because he would not have to lift a finger.
It would be terrible and near on impossible for any Southern army to drag themselves around in blizzards around Winterfell. Of course it could still happen. But I think there are much better things for Littlefinger to do with a whole fresh army.
It would be much easier for him to just create an alliance with whoever wins the battle.
With the information that we have at this moment it would not surprise me if Littlefinger by himself conveniently showed up after the battle has ended. I am not completely ruling out the army, but I just think with the information that we have at the moment that the army of the Vale would likely not be a part of the Battle of the Bastards.
Apollo,
I think L7R is placing the resurrection scene in episodes 5 or 6 because of the director. However, we know (because D&D have told several times) that they move scenes around from one episode to the other in service of the story.
So yeah, there is a chance that the scene will take place so late in the season (though it somehow feels very rushed), but there is also a chance that despite being directed by the main director of episodes 5 and 6, this particular scene might be moved earlier.
When? No idea. Though, I like the idea some of you suggested of him coming back in episode 3. That way there is some time to address the fallout from Jon Snow’s stabbing and the reactions from those who are in the vecinity (Mel, Davos, other brothers of the NW – I am particularly looking forward to Edd’s reaction to the murder of his friend and LC- and the Wildlings in episode 1 and maybe (though not necessarily) during episode 2; and give some room for the developments after he leaves the Wall.
The Northern lords would be a bonus, but any Vale expeditionary force should be large enough on its own to defeat the Boltons.
The whole point of Littlefinger’s scheme last year was to get permission to take Vale soldiers Northward without arousing any suspicion from the Lannisters. He already exposited that the Vale’s forces are trained to fight in ice and snow.
Littlefinger wouldn’t have any reason to believe that there’d be some successor Northern rebellion against the Boltons; he doesn’t know about Rickon, Sansa is supposed to be the trophy of whoever won the Stannis v. Boltons battle, and it’s difficult to see how he could anticipate Jon doing anything (if he has the kinds of sources necessary to have info on him, he’d soon know that Jon is dead). Now that the battle is over, he has to strike.
Unrelatedly, another Sophie sighting in Northern Ireland today. The guy who took the photo doesn’t mention a location, but per his account he lives in Maghera.
https://twitter.com/mcoyle30/status/669564178135388160
dragonbringer,
I actually saw a couple of people who speculate about Daeny riding Ghost. Genuinely thought about this. You know she did that with Silver and Drogon. But don’t think so.
Regarding Hotu…I don’t think there is ever any clue that they will form a couple or what Jon would feel towards her…it’s just the way some people interpretate this or the wy they want to and this funny Daeny fans do. Jon fans are absolutely mad at this. Its fun to watch such a debate that turns very quickly into attacks and childlish arguments. Usually all their debates turns that way. First of all all these visions are related to Daeny and something she will experienced treasons, mounts or lies. Sweetness that is mentioned is described throught her chapters as something negative and I know super hardcore Jon fans use it that nothing will come out of it. While super hardcore Daeny fans oppose it.
I would say that they can and probably will be a couple, but not because of that. Parallels in what they do might be a bigger sign. What it means in my opinion is that this will end badly for Daeny in the end since she is the one experiencing sweetness. Like a death and with that Jon never wanted a son and regretted it and Daeny is barren. Rhaegar and Lyanna switched gender wise.
So you take PtwP, AAR as literral and her slaying Stannis or Aegon not. I don’t think so. It’s pretty much the same, but they uecluded treasons, mounts or lies anyway. In the books I think she will meet them and slay them eventually. AAR was truly never described, but to me it seems like to hammer to the audience that Daeny is this magical person, unique as we said it. Tbh with you I like this version of one hero rising though his actions and as an outsider. The other one as magical, destined and with all the things around her council, good name, army etc. I think so too that we’ll be getting prophecies I mean the one in the leaked audio script was Kinvara and she called Daeny The One Who Was Promised and besides Warrior Of Light. I don’t think we need more than that. Maybe Stallion That Mounts The World…I would like to think it’s Drogon and not Rhaego as Drogo said, but it could be Daeny with Drogon. After all their fates are tied together. Visions are cut off like I said treasons, mounts or lies. Show will probbaly want to include just the important prophecies and don’t complicate things too much for the audience.
Agree about Daeny being tied to magic like Bran who is basically a demigod. I played with this idea of Bran being a neutral one and CotF too. I mean they played som part in building the Wall. Who knows might be some pact will be formed to resolve this liek it was years ago. It would be good to know more about WW motives, War of Dawn that happened thousand of years ago, what drove them away and what wake them up. Sam might figured it out for the audience.
Sorry for my bad English. Not my first language,but trying my damnest to make it work. Great talking to you. As always. 🙂
Leave it to the Irish to call a town Moneyglass (from the Irish, Muine Glas), and even better name the high road Roguery Road.
The symmetry with GOT is perfect.
The actor for Yohn Royce filmed for a day or two in July and he will only be filming again in December, that is far removed from the Battle of the Bastards.
The big catch here is that this photo in question had absolutely no sign of the Vale on it. There was no Vale shields or Vale banners or Vale men. So to used that photograph as proof of the Vale army being at the Battle of the Bastards might not proof much.
Littlefinger will return to the North, but I am not sure that he will be there with the army of the Vale. There are practical reasons why it would be difficult for the army of the Vale to reach Winterfell.
But I am not ruling it out either, I hope someone actually finds some real proof one way or the other about this question.
I am not sure if Sansa would go to Littlefinger or if she would go to Castle Black, this could go either way.
Ok, someone from the many who think it’s obvious Sansa will end up at CB, can you please break it down for me and explain how any of that makes sense at all?
1) Sansa, on the run, likely with just Brienne somehow makes it all the way through the North to the Wall with Ramsay on her heels.
– she’d have to pass through the Last Hearth to get to the Wall, and all the indications are that the Umbers (on the surface) are with the Boltons
– if she makes it to the Wall, will Ramsay trust the Umbers to be on his side? He’ll assume they let her through
– RAMSAY WILL KNOW SHE’S GOING TO THE WALL. He told her that her brother was Lord Commander there. Where would he think the first place she would run would be? To her brother.
2) If Jon is resurrected right away, what the hell is Sansa doing for the whole season? Sitting around as the politics of the Wall get sorted out?
– For those who are saying Jon sends her to rally the North for them: you’re crazy. With what guard? He’s going to send Sansa Stark, escapee from the Warden of the North, back to the North with a couple of Nights Watch to guard her?
– The same Night’s Watch that tried to kill him?
– He can’t spare Night’s Watch to guard her, nor should they abandon the Wall, even ones loyal to him. Would he send Wildlings? That would be crazy and it’s not happening. Davos alone isn’t enough.
– the Northern lords are not filming enough for Sansa’s storyline to be traveling around, even if Jon is with her.
3) If Jon is resurrected later, what is Sansa going to do at the Wall? Assuming Davos and Mel aren’t all hanging out at CB for a few episodes fighting, but perhaps sneak his body out somehow. And I mention Mel and Davos because those are the only people at the Wall who would have a story line tied into hers as more impt characters.
So either she plops in the middle of CB with a dead half-brother (and no idea he could come back to life). OR we spend 4 episodes with her trudging through the snow trying to get to CB. Yeah, no.
4) Why does everyone think it’s so improbable to end up with LF. WE KNOW HE’S GOING TO BE IN THE NORTH. He told Cersei he was going to sweep in after the Boltons/Stannis fight. That “fight’ has happened. In show travel time, that’s plenty of time for him to move North AND we know he would be nearby to take advantage.
– he doesn’t attack Ramsay right away because he has Sansa now AND the Boltons were apparently not weakened at all beating Stannis.
5) It would be perfect GOT irony that Brienne would have to bring her back to LF, after trying to get her to run away from LF at the inn.
6) If Sansa was safely with Jon and Stannis defeated, what on earth would prompt Jon to march south with the Wildlings? He wasn’t inclined to go fight the Boltons with Stannis. If Sansa was safe with him, why would he go to war? (unlike the books, where he thinks Arya is with Ramsay AND they have Mance).
– When he knows the threat is in the far north, why would he march off to war with the Boltons with the Wildlings?
– UNLESS he hears from his half-sister in a letter to the Lord Commander that she is going to rally the Vale and the North. And he thinks that a Stark in Winterfell means a better chance at fighting the WW when the time comes.
7) If Sansa comes to the battle with Jon, people are really claiming LF is just wandering there alone, without the Vale? On what planet would Jon trust him enough to bring him to meet Ramsay with Sansa? or frankly feel he had any right to be there, unless it was because he has the backing of an army.
– If this is before the battle (but you don’t accept the Vale army is there), why would LF be there, unless he was there with Sansa?
– If this is after, why would LF be there with Jon and Sansa, but his army not in the battle? He would just parachute in?
Filming spoilers:
1) People don’t want to accept the Vale is at BastardBowl because there are “no confirmed spoilers of the filming.” Well, there are no confirmed spoilers that Sansa and Jon film together anywhere before the battle. You can’t use that logic both ways.
2) Sansa and LF have filmed together. Lord Royce will film in December too, according to him.
Frankly, I really hope I’m wrong. I want nothing more than Jon and Sansa together. I want them to plan to defeat the Boltons together. But I can’t understand how that would happen and how that fits with the books as well (where Sansa is still tied to LF, and I really doubt will be spending her WOW arc with Jon and the Wildlings).
Grenouille,
Any more tidbits from that reddit source, but I probably shouldn’t ask. Just curiosity. I saw the guys who put these spoilers about Umbers siding with Boltons later turning out true. LF probably will be there along with Vale army. He’s shooting scene with other actors there. Although, I don’t believe in what was posted such as Ghost dying with Ramsay and stuff. That sounds like a bad fanfiction.
I said it that LF and Sansa or Last Hearth would be her destinations and not CB…even if they set this up. It’s not that easy with GOT and Sansa arch is described by Liam as amazing. I don’t think being alongside Jon, watching him rallying troops, getting resurrected and fighting is that amazing. Of course who wouldn’t want a Stark reunion, but she has to do something on her own. Start to play Game Of Thrones. But to escape, playing LF, saving the day and then turn on him to support Jon or Rickon. It would make sense for her to in Wintefell more likely with LF than Jon. LF is crazy enough or sneaky to take her their with him unlike Jon who would never risk her if she even was decided.
Sansa has no idea where Littlefinger is, or that he’s coming North with an army. If the Vale army is where she ends up, it will have to find her, almost certainly.
Purely from a numbers perspective, the Vale army would be the better choice (and, if it was close enough to find her, obviously the better bet purely from the odds of actually getting there).
I am aware this was Mel’s rationale. What I’m curious about is the importance of this event from a storytelling perspective. I have a feeling we will hear more in S6 (and TWOW obviously). I wouldn’t be surprised if her sacrifice is at least brought up early in the season, and potentially even considered relevant to the expected resurrection.
I also happen to think her Grayscale affliction has some significance. (it most likely will in the book, and I’m holding out hope it will in the show)
Boudica,
Ok, I know my comments are not very clear because english is not my first language, but this post was part of a whole discussion about the reddit source’s reliability. The one source who said:
-The Umbers and the Karstarks are siding with the Boltons
-Rickon is present at the battle
-Sansa LF and the Valemen arrive at the end the battle and side with Jon against the Boltons
– A Stark die during the battle
Well, that source is the one who provided the banners picture. If you believe his picture is legit, why don’t you believe what he has to say. Most people here believed all his spoilers were bullshit back then, nobody wanted to believe Sansa and Rickon would be present at the battle for exemple, but most of these spoilers have been confirmed true by either L7R, WiC or Sue herself since then.
Geralt of Rivia
I think the spoiler about Ghost and Ramsay was from someone else but I’m not sure.
Dame Pasty,
I agree that Shireen’s sacrifice was not just for “shock value”, and that is why I’m feeling like we will hear more about it next season- like we have “unfinished business”…
I had not considered the upside for Mel, clearing the snow so that she could return safely back to castle black. That is an interesting take. (way to find a silver lining). 🙂 I see some people questioning how Sansa could get to CB (if she does indeed head that way)- might be interesting to see if Shireen’s sacrifice really does change the weather, however temporary, and perhaps even spills into Sansa and Theon’s escape.
I think it could go either way it is difficult to say what will happen. Castle Black would be much closer to her then the Vale, and if Bran can travel beyond the Wall in secret while escaping from the Boltons then Sansa could do the same thing.
On the other hand she might try to reach the Vale because she might think that Ramsay will search for her at the Wall. Littlefinger did promise Sansa that he would return to Winterfell, I think if she does meet up with Littlefinger then she will run into him on the road.
But we also have to take Rickon into consideration here, and it should be a big consideration since he is the real heir of the North. Littlefinger is not going help Sansa go around the North and drum up support for Rickon’s claim of the North.
Or we also know that there could potentially be another heir in Robb’s will.
So how would Sansa and Littlefinger be fighting for the North or on who’s side? And what will Jon do? Perhaps he will fetch Rickon or send Davos to get Rickon. But if this happens then there will be too much competitors for the likes of Littlefinger.
Or will Jon and Sansa fight against each other?
I think the main thing that Littlefinger wanted was to secure permission for the Vale army to move around without arousing suspicion.
Sure the Vale soldiers might have had some training. But how would substantial would that training be without experiencing the actual conditions. The only armies with real experience in these conditions is the Mountain clans and the Wildlings.
Littlefinger has always been flexible he might decide not to go North after the defeat of Stannis.
The Boltons are not stupid and they currently hold Moat Cailin, why would they let the army of the Vale pass into the North when the battle against Stannis is already over and they dont have Sansa anymore?
I also dont think the army of the Vale are just going follow every whim of Littlefinger around blindly. But sure the Vale could go North it was obviously Littlefinger’s big plan at some stage. I am just not sure they will take part in the Battle of the Bastards.
There is no will in the show.
Cersei’s permission would be meaningless if he did anything with the army other than take it North; not worth securing.
He was planning to attack the winner of the battle regardless of who it was (in many ways, the Boltons should be the softer target).
I imagine they’re going to have the army travel by sea.
They’re going to have to come up with some sort of explanation for him to go the Valemen as to why Sansa isn’t with him anymore (and how she ended up in Winterfell), but otherwise, the show clearly massively condensed that plotline with the goal of, among other things giving Littlefinger the authority over the Vale army without much fuss. The lords we’ve seen there are all friendly to him.
I do understand you 100% your English is great, in any event English is also my second language.
I believe that source, I myself actually also posted a link to that source here at some point.
I just dont believe that this person knows all of the banners. General fans have some knowledge about the Targaryan, Stark, Bolton and Lannister banners. But since the Vale, and Vale banners have not been featured much within the show and there is also nothing unique or distinctive about it, it just seems somewhat unlikely that many casual fans would be able to identify a Vale banner.
This source mentioned the Vale, the Karstarks, the Umbers and the Boltons. But it is clear that the Mormonts and Hornwoods are also present during the battle, and this person did not mention anything about their presence. Therefore, I am not sure that this person can identify all of the banners. By leaving out the Mortmonts and the Hornwoods I would presume that he in fact cannot do so.
On top of that we have gotten some solid confirmation from this site about some of the parties that will be participating in this battle, and the army of the Vale was never mentioned or included to my knowledge. I am also not sure that a Stark will actually die in this battle, but of course anything is possible.
If the Vale army went by ship then the situation could be quite interesting, especially if they went to White Harbor. But I am not sure that the Northern Lords would actually trust Littlefinger much, some of them might suspect something or know something about his betrayal of Ned.
If Littlefinger marched his army across the land, then he would have to cross through the Riverlands. It would be very advantageous to have an army at your disposal within the Riverlands. It is near the North, near the Vale and near to Kings Landing. Kings Landing might soon be in chaos. Littlefinger could take advantage of that chaos by seizing Kings Landing.
But then again I guess he might want to secure the North before setting out against other parties. Of course all of that is just speculation on my part there is no evidence.
The Boltons have not been weakened from the Stannis’s attack, if anything it could potentially have strengthened their forces since some of those sellswords might have deserted to their side. Littlefinger was planning on attacking a weakened force.
I do actually concur about the will, I do not really believe it will be featured in the show. It was just a small possibility, because of the message from Lyanna Mormont.
It is very possible for the army of the Vale to fight in the Battle of the Bastards, it is likely even very propel, I would just like some final conclusive confirmation with regards to the matter.
Geralt of Rivia,
Well there where will be crazy super fans for every character…but I don’t think they were fans of dany also ..because I actually saw one claiming that dany will ride nymeria once drogon is dead..
And that poster is known for illogical theories …so i dont take it seriously ..
I think dany will die fighting the war and never survive..but no matter what the result is the vision was clear …it said bride of fire and showed the marriages she have …i would like to recommand two theories in westeros.org…Sun moon dany jon parallel and willl the romance of dany and jon work in last book…both shows the parallels and foreshadowkngs and possiblity of romance ….me personally think they will be happy at finding each other as a family since both feels lonely and outsiders ..i dont care it was romance or anything …the sweetness you mentioned can be taken in many its not sweet to dany but to everyone…and that theory first was started by the dany haters so I don’t give it a thought too much …I like both Jon and dany so I don’t have a problem with them uniting because I don’t think it will be cliche just because they get together…. If GRRm wanted them to be he will make it work …
Why I side with those OK with the pairing is they can entertain the possiblity of them getting together and fans of both Jon and dany …whereas those who oppose this are Mostly jon fans who hate dany and you can really see the length they will go to thrash dany and praise jon and how he is holy and above dany in those threads…they come up with theories of jon pairing with characters anyone but dany …
Well i dont know what is there that can be said as literal in dany fulfilling the prophecies. …
Salt and smoke is metaphor to an island. .bleeding star a metaphor to comet …dragons a metaphor flaming sword …she herself wakes as dragon metaphorically…
The HoTu visons are not literal in many vision …why can’t it be in these …after all the rides fire betrayal brides all the visions are metaphorical …so why cant this be same to lies as well …
Like I said show does not have the liberty to show the visions from the books …but they will show the scenes when it actually happen like the pyre HOtu and astopor and Yunkai and the pit …if the thrre fires means the pyre only or the pyre, house of undead ,astopor and meereen and some other events that to come…they showed them in the show and will show in coming season…rides like silver and drogon was shown and the third will be shown as well…
And about prophecies being literal …dany is the one who reverses all of them …no one looked for a girl …
Another thing about the show is that they have included all the prophecy moments of dany ….they showed TSWmW and red comet and AAr and now TPwP…so they have ticked with dany fulfilling the prophecies in the show they wikl only need to reveal it next season…out of allTSwMTw is the one day to find because he will uniting dothraki and it will be dany who will do it …so two and two together we get the answer…
I don’t believe in she will be facing stannis or YG is because of timing ….stannis is already dead he wont be surviving the first half of next book and YG is destined to doom from the start and i dont see him surviving the next book either …if he was any relevant to the plot or ride a dragon he would have been in the show….I don’t see why the show would remove not one but two both stannis and YG from the show who is destined to gight dany like you say …
But on the other hand they have introduced Euron who is heavily foreshadowed as an enemy that dany will have and there is cersei …so as big a fan of dany iam i dont see her fighting euron cersei stannis Yg all and then WW…it will be euron a major threat to dany not anyother. ..
Well iam not that good at english myself and me texting in phone never helps that…but I too like discussing theories with you
I don’t think that Sansa and Theon will go to the Wall. That does not make much sense: What is Sansa going to do there for the rest of the season? How does Theon get to the Iron Islands from there? …
I guess it could go like this:
[ spoiler ]
– Sansa and Theon run into Brienne and Podrick near Winterfell, maybe there is a nasty fight scene with some Bolton hunters in 6×01, but they manage to escape and decide to go south as Ramsay will look for them at Castle Black
– Ramsay does indeed think that his bride and his Reek are at the Wall and sends the “Pink Letter” to (a resurrected) Jon. This is what brings Ramsay into Jon’s focus and starts off the conflict that later culminates in the Battle of the Bastards
– Sansa, Theon, Brienne and Podrick reach White Harbor by episode 6×02 or 6×03 and are captured by Manderly soldiers. After some tension Lord Manderly reveals himself to be a Stark loyalist and delivers his famous speech. He offers to keep them safe from the Boltons and informs them what is going on:
1.) He has captured Yara Greyjoy after her botched attempt to free Theon from the Dreadfort in Season 4. Manderly wants to execute Theon for his betrayal, but Sansa tells him that he safed her from Ramsay, so he lets the Greyjoys go. Meanwhile they have heard of Balon’s death. Yara decides to return to the Iron Islands with Theon, so they can claim the Seastone Chair. They arrive at Pyke by episode 6×06, just in time to take part in the Kingsmoot (yeahyeah, I know, they will have to borrow LF’s jetpack^^).
2.) Manderly tells Sansa that Littlefinger is mobilising the Vale Lords for reasons unknown. She decides to go back to the Eyree to find out what he is up to. The Vale is the only ‘safe’ place for her and I think she won’t be too mad at LF for marrying her off to the Boltons as he did not know that Ramsay was a psychopath and it was her own decision to go there. Of course, this is a little illogical, but as the whole storyline was improvised I would not rule out, that Show-LF somehow manages to talk his way out of this again and to convince Sansa to return to the North – this time with an army!
3.) Manderly will tell Brienne about the situation in Riverrun or something else in the Riverlands that makes her go there after dropping off Sansa in the Vale by episode 6×05.
[ / spoiler]
This theory would explain some of the most questionable show-only plots (Yara’s attack on the Dreadfort, Brienne in Winterfell) while also moving all the pieces (back) to the places where they need to be before the season reaches it’s climax (and where their book counterparts are at the beginning of TWOW):
[ spoiler ]
– Theon and Yara need to be reunited somehow and I can’t see this happening at the Wall or at Deepwood Motte in the show. I guess Stannis will be defeated by the Boltons in the books, too, which allows Theon and Asha/Yara to escape from his camp and to return to the Iron Islands.
– Sansa has to switch out of her FArya/Jeyne Poole personality at some point before the Battle of the Bastards. She needs to be with Littlefinger and the Vale army as she is probably the main reason for the Lords of the Vale to invade the North in both the books and the show. In the books the Vale Lords will claim Winterfell for Sansa and her husband Harry the Heir, in the show they will probably go there to avenge Sansa or something like this. I don’t know what Show-LF’s original plan was, but I’m sure Sansa’s arrival at the Eyree could help him to convince the Vale Lords to march north. (I also think that Harry in the books will abuse Sansa in a similar way Ramsay did in the show and he will probably die in the Battle of the Bastards, making Sansa a widow AND the Lady of the Vale, thus a perfect match for Uncle Petyr 😉 )
– Brienne and Podrick need to be in the Riverlands by episode 6×08, which is quite a distance to travel from Castle Black, all the way through enemy territory with Bolton search parties looking out for them. Furthermore, they would need a really good reason to abandon Sansa there as she is not safe at the Wall, even if Jon is alive by then. Most of the NW are rapists and mutineers and the Boltons will probably go there to look for her, too. It makes more sense for Brienne to leave the North as soon as possible and to take Sansa with her. After she is ‘safe’ at the Eyree, Brienne and Podrick can leave her to catch up with Jaime and the outlaws (LF would probably not like them to hang around in the Vale anyway after their conflict in 5×02).
– Jon’s Northern storyline could work independently from Sansa’s storyline: Jon tries to rally the Wildlings and some Northern Lords and probably sends out Davos to find Rickon (Show-Jon already knows from Sam that Bran and Rickon are alive, he does not need Sansa or Theon to tell him), while Sansa helps LF to rally the Vale Lords. They won’t meet until the battle is on. Meanwhile, Davos can keep his book story as a mini-plot. He does not have to sail to Skagos, but finds Rickon nearby with the Umbers. His visit in White Harbor is given to Sansa and Brienne.
[ / spoiler]
Boudica,
Again where was the flaming sword being pulled under it …
Its another case of making fit them to point Jon just because there is a reference to the sky as red
I used to say it was Arthur dayne bleeding..
And can you say Jon was born right at the exact moment with certainity …and there is nothing special about being born amidst your mother cries either because everyone is born like that …
And there is see patrek who was actually made into the story because GRrm lost abet and sigil is blue stars….why it is there is so much versions of jon fulfilling it …
The approach to making Jon into one is totally wrong …I see all the points showing me to dany and then decide it must be dany for sure …but in Jon case people decided that it must be jon and then go find looking for clues and make fit them to their theory whenever see any refference to blood ,sky ,stars ,salt and smoke …
Why cant he be a just hidden prince with a major role to play ..
You mentioned cersei and Mel and add rhaegar to that list who tries to recreate a proohecy ..
How dany differs from all these above is that she is selffulling them without actually knowing she is fulfilling the PRophecies …she doesn’t know anything about the prophecies till now…
And you are right its what and who people and thier actions are the main focus of the story …dany was messiah now not because she fulfiiled prophecy but decided to free slaves and end slavery and will fight WW..
She could have totally been a viserys or Aemond or Brightflame or other valyrians who enslaved the continent using dragons…
But she chose to free people with those dragons…
So it all about choices
Another thing is fany unknowingly fulfills every aspect if prophecy but she actually is the one who does it not other people for her ..
Whereas for jon its not Jon where others will make him as the one be it Rhaegar or Mel knowing that he will be the one and wants him to be the one ..and another reason why he should not be
For me dany fulfilling the prophecies is like RLJ theory and Jon is like RLD and R+L = J+D or any other alternatives to the RlJ theory …
Nadia,
Hmmm.. you made me think… how would Sansa be realistically re-captured or reunited with Littlefinger or Ramsey – in a way that wouldn’t make everyone in fandom mental that she DOESN’T go to the Wall and spend much of season 6 with Jon…
1) She’s injured from the fall – and can’t keep up, Ramsey finds her
2) They’re going to be recaptured by Ramsey anyway, so she chooses to help Theon escape because he’d be DOA if they got caught, she’s the valuable hostage.
3) Brienne/Pod takes her to Rickon supporters and she runs into Littlefinger there
4) She just finds Littlefinger, or Littlefinger finds her
5) a Vale army finds her, Littlefinger joins her mid-season
I don’t know if I believe that Sansa shows up last minute with a Vale army to Snowbowl… but I would enjoy that… as I think Littlefinger wouldn’t see which side “the Vale” chooses coming. I want a whole SEASON of Sansa playing him like a lute.. that is epic to me…
The King Who Cares,
Jon knows only about Bran.
dragonbringer,
You can’t deny there are some fishy things about Dany’s childhood. She keeps getting these wolflish things and strangly connected to wolves throught the books. She saw Red Wedding in Hotu totally unrelated to her unless she is connected to House Stark. Daeny is a lot like Lyanna. Wild, independetn, beautiful, graceful etc. She mirror her very much unlike Jon where Rhaegar is a bit different guy. JOn is more like Ned. Half of the clues are in her chapters. Often Rhaegar is mentioned and how much she looks like him. I mean it might be a strech, but I wouldn’t compare these theories with AAR prophecy. But we both agree who is AAR. Personally I wouldn’t be mad if Jon was Dayne and to wield Dawn, but they played fairly little part, but there is some connection to War of Dawn and their sword Dawn. I would say that Jon could be Last Hero, but I guess it’s either more connected to Bran or simply it’s different version of AAR just from another part of the Planetos.
Other than that agree with the rest.
Geralt of Rivia,
That whole situation is a bit weird. Bran didn’t ask Sam to keep things a secret, unlike in the books, so presumably he knew Sam would tell Jon — but if he was fine with that, why not relay to Jon where Rickon is headed, which Bran actually knows in the show (unlike the books)?
ladywolfsbane,
If Littlefinger and the Valemen find her first (which I think is the only likely scenario to get her to that location), I don’t see why people would criticize it, at least as far as character decision-making.
Geralt of Rivia,
Well she is related the Starks and wolves …so it might be understandable…
I don’t believe in RLd or jon and dany as twin but if GRRm pulled that it would be amusing to see the reactions of some of jon super fans from westeros.org…
LH is not a proohecy but a tale told in north …so i will say its the version of AAr and TpTwP like those we find in TWOIAF book…onlh three prophecies speak about war of dawn end of the world and ghost grass..those are AAR and TPTwP and TsWMTw…
dragonbringer,
I couldn’t care less for others peoples reaction. If it is good for the story let it happen. I’m in for a ride.
It would be weird, because I think there is simply not enough evidence in the show for Jon to be Ashara’s son. One would expect some mentioning, explaining her background a little bit and TOJ is approaching. They can’t hammer all the things at once. If they mentioned her and do all the things needed for a build up. I would be leaning towards Ashara.
I would be glad for him to be Ned’s legitimate son,because that’s what he always wanted,but I guess GRRM will neve give him that pleasure. But in the books you might find some for Brandon and Ashara…although Selmy did talked about stillborn daughter and Brandon had a thing for her and was impulsive and foolish. Which cost him his life by demanding Rhaegar’s head. Dany being half Stark would create an interesting scenario for her, but I couldn’t support such a incest between them or for that matter why would they keep hidden away from Jon? Ned raised as a good men and he would never puruse whatever claim he could had.
Targaryens yeah they did that frequently but not Starks, Even tho they did in the past cousins between each other. On the other hand they never doubted Dany’s parentage on the show. In the show there is usually very visible foreshadowing and you can spot it or hints but no mentioning of that.
If it wasn’t for GRRM comment I would say they could be brother and sister. Jon is described as being even older than Robb. Just thinking out loud. 😀
It’s probably just another name but all the same prophecy and I can see show going with one universal term the one that was promised/warrior of light.
The King Who Cares,
That was somewhat interesting but personally i think every theory involving sansa leaving the north is off the table.
There’s something wrong with posting comment lately.
Anyways here goes again. What if Sam end up being the surprise PTWP? Ghost saved his butt twice and where was the wolf when Jon needed him? GRRM I think has stated he feels the character of Sam mirrors him the most of them all, or has a special liking for him or something. I would hate it but could it be he’d do that?
Well if Dany is the hero whom her super fans keep on insisting, she better hope that she doesn’t fall off from riding Drogon during the battle. Because without her dragons, she can’t do anything. She’s no warrior; Drogon is the one who saved her from the harpies last season. Her unsullied army and Daario won’t stand a chance against the whitewalkers, they’re from sunny Essos and will not last long during the winter. And the dragons are still small and very vulnerable. Which doesn’t bode well because their survival is Dany’s only chance to stay alive and defend herself.
Here is the deal: I really hope that you are right because I think that it could contribute to this sort of story in a very (very!) powerful way. If you look at Jon, then he is the sort of person who will ask people to fight for a cause he supports: but he won’t ask any one to die for him. And I completely agree that having someone do this (particularly if that person offered to do so) would have a huge effect on the difference between Jon 1.7 and Jon 2.0.
In some ways, the absolute best person for this would be Ollie. Jon being Jon will ultimately understand why Ollie did what he did and probably forgive Ollie. (Fans won’t, but we aren’t so honorable.) So, that would really chew up Jon a lot, I think.
My issue is with the plot mechanics. Chekhovian that I am, I think that this gun should have been put on the wall first. We should have seen reviving cost a life first. Yes, gods will be involved: but gods are guns in this sort of story! (That could be an NRA slogan: bleah!)
Still, you persuade me: I think that I would rather criticize this for the plot failure than for the missed story opportunity.
Nobody is saying that Daeny or anybody else is “the hero”: this story will not have any heroes. We are saying that she is one third of the AA trinity.
As for the rest of it, if you think any of that is going to be relevant, then you are badly anticipating what is to come! It’s going to be about understanding the White Walkers and R’hllor, understanding what really happened thousands of years before (because the fairy tales are all lies), and working out the most amenable solution for all parties. And if those very much are skills of Daeny’s (and Jon’s).
Not without getting roasted in such a way as to make the reviews of Crows look like they were referring to a Booker Award nominee. The tale has to focus on characters that have been primary protagonists since Thrones.
That is a lot.
These books span thousands of pages, if we simply took out all of these vague prophesy references of Azor Ahai and TPtwP, then it would not even fill a chapter.
On the other hand we do have thousand of pages of characters developing and making choices and living with their choices. For me personally that is much more interesting then all of these prophesies, and I do think it would be far more interesting if we never knew who the prophesied hero is.
We dont really need to find out, because the story is already about the main characters.
The prophesies are interesting to a degree, but it is also very misleading. All of these prophesies about Azor Ahai and TPtwP for example, are just one side of the equation. They just basically fall under the believe of the R’hllor or fire god followers. That is all good and well but we do know that the previous Long Night did not have anything to do with dragons or Valyria for example. So having dragons and R’hllor might also not be the answer this time.
That is just one example to illustrate that these prophesies might end up being misleading.
I think what we will see is how prophesy drives the characters, that is more important then the actual detail of the prophesy itself.
I was referring to the one who indisputably claims Dany is the ‘one’ aka Azor Ahai / TPTWP / everything. Read up and you’ll see. I was merely pointing out that without her dragons, how can she be the ‘one’? She has to rely everything to them to make her what she is. But what if her dragons die? How can she fight and even defend herself?
To your last paragraph, I never said about anticipating anything. What I said about Dany is just a practical approach. And what I think is going to be relevant is that the characters should have combat skills to fight and survive against the white walkers. It’s common sense.
Daenys,
You have to go and read the books …if you think dany was saved by drogon from the harpies…
I never said dany was “the hero ” just that she is the one fulfilling prophecies out of the main characters …
She will be the symbol that unites the people under her banner and will have a major part just like jon who will be having people of north and wildlings under him..
Glad you have read the books to know how big dragons will be in the end when they are fighting WW…
And if we are going to talk about saved by dragons and others …just go and watch all the times Jon is saved by wolves …I can count three times easily ..
If you can bring down entire character arc of dany to just dragons …then I think without the wolves starks and jon will also be nothing and dead by now …
It’s pretty stupid to say that only those who know how to wield a sword can fight …do you know exactly how the battle turns out …how one must fight a WW on giant spider standing on the ground….
And if you have seen my comments I also mentioned that she will die in the battle ..
Geralt of Rivia,
Jon’s mother is Lyanna that is for sure …if Grrm decides to surprise us it might be on who the father might be….but even that I don’t see happening .
And dany being aerys rhaella is what’s makes her story just like Jon being the bastard of Ned …so I don’t think there will be any surprise on dany parentage .. And whoever jon’s parents are he will always be Ned Stark’s son
Boudica,
Well iam not the one who quoted something from these thousands of pages which doesnt even mentioned of a prophecy …but connected that line to a prophecy
Why did you quote that line if you don’t care about prophecies …
Yes it won’t cover a chapter but author keeps talking about over the five books ….so much that people go and connect simple lines such as bloody sky to prophecies …
And except there are tales of how AA and many other names of him fought in first long night is been mentioned in TWoIAf and possiblity of dragons in westeros…
Didn’t I say just that …it all about choices and not prophecies …
Even Grrm says whatchoices you make is will be making you as hero .
One has to make a choice and face its consequences…and its just not simple as you are born to a two persons of noble house and others making your choices for you ..
I have always said Knowing about the prophecy will not change who dany is and she will already be doing what she intends …but she will learn the threat of WW and go to help Jon …that all is about choices the main characters take..
Y. TargStarkian,
Well unless Randyl tarly and his wife turned out to be Aerys and Rhaella on disguise sam cannot be the one …
Its a shame that show downplayed jon and ghost so much that people started wondering whether Ghost is jon’s or sam’s
Hopefully they can correct this in the coming season ..
dragonbringer,
I can see them killing Ghost etheir way. As a sacrifice, to take Jon’s mind out of his body or on the battlefield. But if Jon is going towards wargining into Ghost and the they kill him as we suspect. Why to introduce it in the fist place if he can’t use it in the future. I can expect Arya to warg into cat and then used it for a much bigger purpose with Nymeria. If Ghost will die there is no one to warg into. Their relationship was so diminished on the show. It would be tougher for the books.
Agree with Jon. Ned was the one to save him, raised him among his children, because from the books or the show it’s clear that Jon is not his son, and I mean biological one. In his spirit Jon will always be his son.
As for his father. Well, there are many theories from Brandon, Ned, Aerys tricky one and Arthur. Starks do incest, but not this one. Brother and sister and not everyone is like Jaime and Cersei. Aeyrs had a thing for Joanna, but I guess he never get to spend a night with Lyanna when Rhaegar was hiding her for almost a year. Arthur is very unlikely. I can’t think of anyone else.
dragonbringer,
I would say Starks instead of Jon. Sansa could get to their side Vale and Riverlands and North will never follow him like their main leader. That would Rickon basically King in the North or King of Winter. Sansa will be his regent and by bringing him support from the other regions. Jon will lead forces on the battlefield, because that’s what he’s good at. At least in the show. In the books he’s like an average fighter. In the show one of the capable.
Geralt of Rivia,
I like ghost I don’t want him die…
I used to have this theory that it was Jon with ghost head that dany saw …it can still happen..
I don’t see ghost dying i hope he can warg in and warg back …a wolf and then man again ..
Mel doesn’t need to sacrifice anyone to bring Jon life …because all she has to do is pray to rhlor like thoros did..
Another thing about ghost dying though will mean he is not the balance like the theories state because he can’t have the one side without loosing another …
No i guess if it comes to any other option it will be either aerys or aruthur…no Ned or Brandon pls…
Yeah but Jon will have wildlings and supporters of north mainly because sansa can’t lead the armies and rickon is just a boy so he will take control of them…if sansa was like say dany or arya …then I agree she will lead the vale and riverlands and Jon wildlings but she is not …so only I said only jon
Geralt of Rivia,
I think you are diminishing Jon as a character if you say he is only good on the battlefield. It’s just a guess, but I think he will continue to evolve more as a leader whom people will follow
Sure: but that is true of everyone in one way or another. Daeny and her dragons, particularly Daeny and Drogon, essentially are as one. We need to think of Drogon as basically an extension of Daeny. It’s not that “Drogon saves Daeny”: it’s Daeny saves herself using Drogon.
They are not going to defeat the White Walkers by fighting them. One thing that we will almost certainly learn is that this is not what happened last time, either. Remember one of the key themes of this series: the fairy tales are all propaganda. Some agreement or accord was reached centuries before, and that accord almost certainly has been broken by humans who had no idea what that accord was, or by something else
So, look at Daeny’s, Jon’s and Tyrion’s real skills. One thing that they are really good at doing is looking past “sides” and searching for agreements that are amenable to as many people (or entities) as possible. At some point, they are going to learn what really happened. At some point, they are going to figure out why R’hllor really is exhorting people to eradicate the Walkers. (This might entail learning what R’hllor is: because it certainly is not what Melisandre and the Red Church thinks that it is.)
If you kill a warged animal with the remnant of the warg within it, then the warg almost certainly disappears. But remember that
Remember, Jojen warns Bran about this in the books and on the show: if a warg stays in an animal too long, then he loses himself in the animal; and that is when the warg is still alive.
At any rate, both the show and the book indicate that Red Priests can revive the dead (or near dead) without sacrificing anybody or anything. To this end, why are people assuming that anyone must die? But if someone is to die, then what is the general theory behind it? The more “noble” the sacrifice, the more powerful the resulting magic. Sacrificing a nobleman or princess gets powerful weather magic. Given this, is sacrificing a mere wolf is going to get revival? Revival seems to be beyond sacrifice: it seems to be based on the whim of R’hllor.
The King Who Cares,
ghost of winterfell,
He is bad at politics and sometimes struggle as a leader. Like in the books he should’ve been more open with his thought and explain his decisions. As LC one say you don’t have to, but these decions are very radical.
Wimsey,
If Jon’s mind is trapped inside of Ghost. It goes like this only death may pay for life and remember that Shireen might burn to revive someone in the books as well. I don’t think it will be usual resurrection, but something a bit different from any other used befor. Stannis is far away, Jon lying on the ground dying in the snow and Mel with Selyse. Not that big a of a stretch.
dragonbringer,
It’s a bit inaccurate, because Vale or Riverlands will hardly follow Jon on their own. Sansa or Rickon will play a key part there even if you don’t like it and want Jon to lead them like Daeny will do on her part. Not everybody will start to flocking to his side, because he is Jon Snow or whatever his surname will be at this point.
Aerys couldn’t be his father, because Rhaegar hide for a good year. I guess people just wants another parallel between Jon and Daeny. Being Aerys’s kids along with Tyrion. Arthur is a mysterious, but so far a very little evidence.
Speaking of the balance. It’s probably more of a blood related to bring two sides into the agreement. Ice and Fire. Not really with having Ghost or a dragon. If is is then Jon should have Ghost and Rhaegal for example to balance things. Not really. Don’t expect his resurrection to be the usual one, but definitely not like Drogon or Daeny whatever happened there. I know you wouldn’t like to see them copying Daeny’s moment and I don’t think they will do that, but it will not be that simple with praying over his body. Ritual with some sacrifice might a be a good guess. I think someone will die and it might be Ghost. It’s alogical outcome if his mind needs to be freed from Ghost’s body. Death may pay for life. Either their bond is almost screwed up beyond any redemption.
Geralt of Rivia,
Like I said I won’t mind if rickon or sansa lead armies….but they are not written that way …especially sansa and rickon is too young
Its not that iam against the idea of jon doing dany style…its just he is the only one of the in characters who hasnt done any questionable grey things…we have dany tyrion arya bran sansa all doing grey stuffs….
But he always gets awayw with this kind of things….i see people cheer for him rising from pyre like dany after the sacrifices of be it shireen or ghost or someone
But unlike him dany did something questionable thing at the event burned a witch alive and consciously entered the fire
And she gets blame for this …
But in Jon’s case the blame will be on Mel and jon will get away with this while being hailed as some hero ..no I don’t care what he feels when he hears what had made him being back …what good is that …
He always gets away with this kind of things…argument can be made that he was forced to do it …be it having sex or betraying his oath..
The biggest questionable thing he did was threatening Gilly and switching her baby …really ..
And the one decision he made got him killed but that will only make him leave the organisation that was doomed and have no chance of fighting the threat alone..
Its the one thing I have against him…when all characters are grey he alone escapes that…
If he was ready to burn shireen himself I will be ok with that scene..
Not to mention people will be arguing that stone dragon has woken…where it will never make sense …if GS is the stone than the dragon woken from stone must be shireen not jon ..but do you think his fans will hear for logical answer …
Geralt of Rivia,
So was Dany. That was one of the biggest parallels between their arcs in both the books and show. Both young, inexperienced without a proper advisor, they struggled. It was a steep learning curve. The whole purpose of which, according to me, is that they will learn from their mistakes in the future and become better and more confident leaders.
ghost of winterfell,
While there is a parallel with them. I agree and they will learn from it. The point is that Dany got her dragons, good family name. Basically Dothraki will worship her, Unsullied follows her for a good time and other houses will rally to her thanks to her name and power that comes with dragons. It’s better to side with her than being burned to the crips or killed by Dothraki. All things needed to improve the situation.
Northerners will follow a Stark as it was said many times. Jon will hardly ever be Jon Stark. Even if I want him to be that. I just can’t imagine Vale or Riverlands following Jon even if he proves himself in battle. North might but not them. That’s why Sansa comes into picture. otherwise I don’t see how she can be involved in the endgame.
Geralt of Rivia,
I agree with what you say about Sansa. My point was that Jon will also be involved in the political landscape of Westeros in some way and not just a battle commander. As for being a Stark, in the books I think Robb s will will come into play. In the show, I don’t know what will happen though
ghost of winterfell,
Some fans propose that Stannis legitimized Jon, but none of the Northerners would give a damn about that. Southern kings documents means nothing to them. Rickon might want to legitimize him, but that be tricky for Northerners. Robb’s will is believed to be playing major in the books, but excluded this from the show.
Yeah, he might be involved, but his biggest strength comes from his actions. As you can see in Hardhome he lead by an example when everyone was running out of them, Jon was running towards them with Tormund and NW brothers. He was being a leader. Being a political leader and leader on the battlefield is something different.
Jon and Daeny are just different kind of leaders. Tbh I think if Sansa starts to play the game. They could form a good combo just like Daeny and Tyrion. Obviously Jon and Daeny will improve in this, but they will ever hardly be masters at it. While Tyrions’s or Sansa’s potential is far bigger.
Geralt of Rivia,
The difference is Tyrion is already master …if you think jon and dany cant master their positions…then Sansa hardly will…and its big jump to conpare her with tyrion …i think that comparison is not right..
I don’t think RObb will play big part in the books too..since GRRm said what we thought didn’t happen related to the will
dragonbringer,
Tyrion is a master due to experience. They better start to do that Sansa being player stuff or rather kill her doing something big. D&D already promised that Sansa will start to play the game and nothing. Otherwise I just don’t see any point of having her in the future. I don’t think they will ever be strong at politics. I see their purpose elsewhere.
Actually, the comparison is not right because Tyrion is Martin’s Marty Stu and D&D’s favourite pet. No character can stand a chance against him.
Geralt of Rivia,
Maybe the “fire” in the song is not Dany and her dragons, but Melisandre. Perhaps the meaning of the phrase Asoiaf is how the Red god (fire) comes to be in harmony/eventual truce with the Great other (ice) and the “song” is the Red woman bringing to life Azor Ahai (Jon), working together and representing both sides of the elements.
Ygritte,
I would like to know what the hell happened in the last War of Dawn and why they put up the Wall? Was there any truce between the sides or strictly fight? If Red priestess bring his champion to life Azor Ahai…that isn’t exactly a balance. Balance would be someone outside of Azor Ahai and Night’s King. Thrid party likely. Very vague things about it and Azor Ahai in general…what he did in the past and what he really represents. Some of thoe question will never be answered and we will always argue about it.
dragonbringer,
He is the closest person to being a hero in the story and GRRM went on to do that, but I belive he will turn it upside down and deconstruct another popular trope. Hero rising to his improved version, to defeat the evil. In my mind he will be doomed hero who will do questionable things in order to achieve what he is meant to do. Stop the evil. That is Jon’s goal since the beginning and he will do it until his purpose is done. Which means he will even sacrifice himself in the order to bring them down or push them to the Lands of Always Winter. And let’s not forget about GRRM hatred towards Gandalf’s return. Jon will return but he will be darker version of himself and that poster we saw here kinda alludes to this idea.
He did some questionable things letting Wildlings through, switching babies not to the extent of others. Tyrion on the show is even worse than Jon in the book or show. Whitashd to certain extent. But he will enter what I belive in to fully grey terrioty. Let’s be honest Daeny get away with some things others characters will get killed due to plot armor. While we’re at it.
Geralt of Rivia,
Completely agree with what you say about Jon in the last post!
Geralt of Rivia,
You see what you say is what u see as dany. .a hero in the story who does heroic stuffs …a doomed hero who will do questionable things to do what she has meant to do… And fight against evil.
Jon on the other hand is a straight hero. He is not done any questionable things as of yet . letting wildlings is not a mistake but fail to explain to his NW members or them failung failing to understamd..his only questionable thing is what he did with gilly. ..
I would reallt like to see how he will come back as …
I see jon living but dany is doomed and sacrificing herself in the battle
Ygritte,
What has she even remotely done anything to qualify for called as fire or representation of red god.
Others had more powers and reading the fires than her ..
And even then no one has entered a fire and came out unburnt.
There is only one who is called Unburnt and Bride of fire.
The problem here is there said to be never ending war between red god and great other…they simply cant come up with truce..
Even dany says she doesn’t want a god who is eternally at war when speaking about red god…
That’s why I dont believe in gods in the series but the heroes and characters and their decisions.
dragonbringer,
“What has she even remotely done anything to qualify for called as fire or representation of red god.”
Well she is the one who sees visions in flames, births shadow babies, is being led to Jon, never gets cold (and other weird stuff I heard are in the books), makes burnt sacrifices. This is going off most people’s assumption that she will be the one to resurrect JS but if true, I’m thinking her character has a bigger arc than many think. In an interview regarding next season Carice said she gets to do something really exciting. I think Dany is being set up to fail. We are all led to believe she’s half of the ice and fire but if we go with the popular theory that Jon is the Azor Ahai wouldn’t the person that brings him back to life be an important instrument of the red (fire) god? Thoros of Myr proclaimed his power to raise Beric came not from himself. He was a priest that had lost his faith then boom Melisandre’s god works through him.
I heard GRRM said something about the ones we think are evil it might not be as straightforward as that. That evil could be, to us viewers, both. The Great other with his white walker army who wants to kill humans and the Rhollor who’s follower Melisandre burns people alive and stuff. Both can bring people back to life but the great other does so to create undead zombies who’s sole purpose is to massacre people and Rhollor does so, to what? We don’t get too many examples, for instance what did Beric’s six lives accomplish I don’t know. But leading Mel to Jon, his warrior of light, would seem to make him the better of the two.
With that, what else could a song of “ice and fire” symbolize when the story has armies that bring darkness, death and icy cold winter to the land of human beings where the god of light resides? Maybe humanity is getting more and more corrupt and the fire is allowing the ice to invade in order to teach lesson to the humans, but has to subdue them so they don’t take over and wipe out humanity completely, hence using the pure and goodhearted Jon Snow to rise from the dead and drive them back. Therefor, the ice and fire work in unity for a time. Kind of like how God is adversary of Satan but the former did work with the latter to “test and try” humanity at times.
Ygritte,
Small correction on my previous post. but I thought it was understandable wat I was saying
Tell me what has she has done that not the other priestess have not done …other priests read the visions too but correctly not keep reading wrongly …
Other priests heal the injrued hand ..
Other priests bring people bring back from dead.
So watever she does other priests already done that. .
She is not the embodiment of fire god ….she is not even a high priestess just the one who ran away.
But even all these powers of theirs bo one will be Unburnt or bride of fire …
Yeah we can just dismiss a character for whom the clues are laid for five books and called unburnt mother of dragons as red herring and simple as just destined to fail but call a person who has nothing to do with fire as champion of fire.
dragonbringer,
Well I don’t know of any other priests that have done what you said. I only know the Melisandre that features prominently in the show. And since she’s the one who is rumored to be bringing him back from death that’s who I’m theorizing about.
dragonbringer,
Advising Stannis before his march against the Boltons, something he is not allowed to do as per NW vows, sending Mance to Winterfell to rescue FArya, who was the wife of the heir to the North, which directly led to the Pink Letter, and deciding to march on Winterfell before being stabbed and asking for NW men to volunteer to do the same were all questionable things Jon did.
dragonbringer,
Also, I know one can’t just dismiss the mother of dragons. I just can’t tell what her role will be right now. At first, she seemed to be headed towards the destination everyone figured but since last season, and especially her convo with Tyrion, it gives me a sense that she too is becoming morally corrupt in the way she wants to “break the wheel.” She speaks of all the noble houses as people she wants to do away with so that she can become queen of all. Becoming ego-driven. So how can she be one of the heroes, or, champion of whatever? Perhaps Tyrion brings her around.
ghost of winterfell,
seriously those are the questionable things that Jon did fighting evil ..
I can say with certainity that dany will burn cities down and destroy entire civilization ..from which a new better one will arise. …
Can you say the same with jon
Ygritte,
So you only heard what happens in the books and not read.
I would advice to read the books before go theorizing… The lines from the books is what one must take seriously …
Ofcourse so much for egocentric that she included her own house…all that line could have meant was that she hopes to make the small people get a better lives why because that’s what she do and thinks. .
She is not going mad nor going to ..
Ygritte,
Look my above post …you cant theorize on based on show alone…
You have to first focus on what’s in the books and then try connecting with whats in the show…
Ygritte,
Look my above post …you cant theorize on based on show alone…
You have to first focus on what’s in the books and then try connecting with whats in the show…
dragonbringer,
Ah, I didn’t notice that she name her own house. And I did watch the episode more than once but somehow I didn’t catch it. But how is that good if she will destroy civilization as you say. So Jon was trying to save Westeros but Dany wants to come in with her dragons and burn it all up. If that’s true it makes me think when Jon comes back to life he will also say screw humanity and side with Dany against Westeros after he saves his Stark siblings then gets her and dragons to help battle the WW with him OR he ends up fighting against her with the help of Bran/the great Other/COTF.
dragonbringer,
Dude, why are you treating this as a competition between Jon and Dany? It isn’t! You said that Jon has not done any questionable acts so far. I gave you examples to the contrary. That’s it. I am not interested in a Jon vs Dany debate though. Jon is one of my favorite characters. I like Dany as a character too, even though her story is so disconnected with everything that’s happening in Westeros that I find it hard to get very interested.
dragonbringer,
I don’t know if I want to read the books while the show is still running. At some point in the future I will. Wish I had already cause the theorizing ya’ll readers do looks like fun. Hence, why I try to piece in the bits I’ve picked up on the internet, which doesn’t always work very well 🙂
Ygritte,
You probably would missed she named her own house because that was not included in the trailer. ..so the first impression sticks with us ..
She will be destroying the ghiscahari cities who practices slavery ….when they are destroyed and dothraki stopped enslaving .. It will give new civilization to emerge…
On westeros she will be helping people by fighting WW. Because above all else dany is saviour like tyrion said …
I would not advice you to read the books till all the books released …because the wait will kill you …but when we theorize we can’t focus on show alone we have focus on book since its the canon and show is just a simplified version
Ygritte,
ghost of winterfell,
I only mentioned dany was because she comes close as Geralt mentioned a doomed hero who will be doing questionable things fighting evil…
But jon is straight hero who has nevee done that can be viewed as controversial or questionable ..
Iam not interested un jon vs dany bcoz i like them both …i only do that when it comes to prophecy. .
But thats the parallel she shares with jon…detached from the politics of westeros …but thier stories are coming togther and they both r turing to be the focus point ..
Yes, I still have this thread open in a tab haha. I hope it’s not dead. I was thinking (something I do too much of I’m told haha) about what Dragonbringer and Ghost of Winterfell were saying above and one thing that I notice was the fact that Daenerys appears to be the good guy, like remember when Maester Aemon was talking to Sam about her achievements in Mereen and stuff and Sam says she sounds like quite a woman. She seems to have or will have a noble and good reputation in Westeros then right? Then we have Jon, who for many outside the wall thinks…is a bastard of a traitor who himself was also one (if the people believe the label the crummy NW guys who killed him will tell) killed Quorin halfhand, slept with a wildling, and let the enemy behind the gates. If the story is told that way, without knowing what really went on behind the scenes and Jon’s true noble motivations, he could be seen as the bad guy no? I think Dany will turn evil in a way and Jon will either have to win people over to side with him against her, or, someone will become his champion and rally people to his side.
Ygritte,
No not really …
You see lots of dany actions was questioned …she will be having a bad rep or atleast her enemies will make one …like she killed her brother and mad..
The one thing she is never going to get rid of is the shadow of her father…
We see tyrion using it as to doubt dany but at the end of season he started believing in her and people in the books will it use against dany …she will also be having dothraki at her side similar to Jon having wildlings .
Why you don’t see Jon as popular as dany in universe is he has yet to accomplish or impact the universe like dany did….dany have stopped a major trade which has affected an entire state and she has brought back dragons. Jon’s accomplishment as of now is not match to that
At the end of the day those are obstacles both jon and dany will overcome.
Again where this comes from …why do you think that dany must go mad or villainy and Jon needs to be some sort of saviour or hero against dany.
Why can’t they both be on the same side …
Because without dany and her dragons …defeating the WW is going to be not easy and no Jon cant do it by himself and dany can’t do it by herself either …
So they need each other …there have been plenty of foreshadowings and parallels in their story that show them working together most possibly a romance …
So again why there is this need for dany turning villain or mad ..
The show is going to be in final stage …they are not going more than 8 seasons…
So in season 6 dany will be uniting dothraki and fighting the slavers from yunkai and meereen ..there is still volantis left don’t know whether vilantis is solved this season or next season..
In season 7 dany will be in westeros and her villain is being introduced now Euron …so she will be spending her time fighting euron and cersei who have been foreshadowed as her enemies …
So that leaves only season 8 …unless jon goes the side of WW which I don’t see happening. They will not fight against each other. .
If being dead and brought back to life will not make a character do 360 turn then I don’t see how the sane character who we have seen for five seasons and books do a 360 turn and go into full villain or mad
Totally forgot about response.
No I see Jon more as a doomed hero. Usual stuff from the books would be Jon to deafeat the evil and being a straight hero as you said it. I don’t think that’s where George is going. In fact I can see him deconstruct another trope unlike show.
Daeny in my mind is more likely to live than Jon due to one thing. Resurrected people are not long for this world and basically one half of them is in the grave. I can see Daeny losing her children as dragons, but gain a real one. As she always wanted but not without consequences.
Sister Kisser,
significance of greyscale, together with ‘King’s blood’ (and, remember, Baratheon is descended from Targaryen): to ‘wake dragons from stone’ (remember, too, dragons have scales, and so do their eggs, their ‘stone’ eggs)…