Today, we have EVEN MORE season 7 spoilers, but first- a Game of Thrones cast interview!
The unlikeliest Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch speaks in a new interview this week. Ben Crompton, who has played Dolorous Edd Tollett since season 2, was a guest at the Sunderland Echo Portfolio Business Awards, and took the opportunity to talk about Game of Thrones. The actor confirms his return in season 7, and talks about the future of the show.
Crompton says, “We are back on season 7 and we have a lot of fun.” He tells The Shields Gazette he’s been at work since August, with filming still ongoing. “I am like a lot of the fans, I am always keen to find out what will happen next. It is exciting when the scripts come through.” Crompton is quoted as saying he always gets a thrill from being on the Castle Black set and that, “It is a genuine set that you can interact with.”
As for working with Kit Harington, Crompton says that Kit is “really funny in real life” and “one of the lads.”
When it comes to next season of Game of Thrones, he does have this to offer. “There are some surprises, We are gearing towards the end. Everyone is assuming certain things will happen but I won’t say if that is the case.”
First, the LIGHT SPOILERS: In Spain, preparations continue for the shooting beginning soon. A couple weeks ago, spoilers confirmed that we would be seeing a scene shot in Zumaia involving men rowing. In the town today, this boat arrived and looks to be part of Game of Thrones filming.
DÍA 12: Esta embarcación que ha llegado hoy, tomará parte en el rodaje de #JuegoDeTronos en #Zumaia. ¿Quienes irán dentro? pic.twitter.com/il4cjxvwdF
script async src="//pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js">— Jon Urbieta (@jonurbieta) October 14, 2016
The boat is covered up, and has a simple structure similar to many other boats we’ve seen on GoT before, across multiple storylines in Westeros and Essos. So, at this point we can’t determine which House or culture the boat is from, because it’s such a common boat they’ve used. If we see the boat uncovered, perhaps we’ll be able to glean more clues from it then.
Now, we have more news that would be considered MAJOR SPOILERS, including notable characters interacting. Scroll past the gif if you want to know!
Yesterday we shared the news of a meeting between Daenerys and an unexpected duo in Westeros, and today, we have fresh spoilers from Los Siete Reinos about another character meet-up!
According to L7R, in season 7 Theon Greyjoy will be reuniting with an old friend from Winterfell, Jon Snow. Our own sources tell us that this meeting won’t be in the north as has been rumored, but will actually be further south, with Jon traveling and encountering Theon at some point.
L7R also reports that when it comes to Bran Stark, they haven’t heard news of Isaac Hempstead Wright filming a family reunion (though of course they can’t entirely rule that out), but they’ve learned Isaac was filming a different scene recently. They report that the scene actually involved Bran and Dolorous Edd, along with members of the Night’s Watch.
More exciting news this week! Theon may have saved Sansa but I’m sure Jon will have some sharp words for Theon nonetheless. That’s a scene I’m very much looking forward to. And with Bran filming with Edd, can we safely assume that Bran has now passed beneath the Wall- even though he is marked by the Night King? That can’t be good.
He is coming south for the marriage confirmed.
So Jon WILL travel to the South!
My my, what if Dany and Jon meet a lot earlier than we thought? 😀
Dany/Jon is actually happening… How cliche.
Hodor
restoresoff,
Their stories have been developed in parallel since almost the beginning. It’s not cliché, it makes absolute sense.
Zumaia looks pretty. Waiting for the scenes.
restoresoff,
Anything is going to sound cliche when we’ve all been sitting around discussing every possibility for the last twenty years.
HODOR!!!!!!
So is it possible that’s what the high-stakes scene with the North is for? A gathering of House Stark and the Northern Lords to discuss a possible marriage with Daenerys down in the South?
God I am so exited!How are we going to wait this much time?And yeah Jon and Dany are meeting this season.Kit deserves some Spain filming lol.
I hope all these awful things I have read these days is just a lie !!! I don’t know who wants to destroy Game of thrones but as far as I read season 7 looks the worst for me !!!
Can we all now finally agree that Jon will also be present in the dragonpit scene?
jdtargstark,
Who says there is only one dragonpit scene?
Why is everyone assuming Jon will marry Dany? I think it’d be weird for him to marry his aunt.
I’ve been trying to keep my excitement levels relatively contained over the last few spoiler reports, but I have to say that Season 7 sounds like it is going to be absolutely incredible. It’s also going to be jam-packed with amazing events and interactions with only seven episodes. Can’t wait!
Finally had to do it…unfollow you guys in my facebook feed. Nothing you did wrong, but when I see in my feed that there’s spoilers, I can’t seem to resist clicking and reading them. Then I invariably wish I didn’t know. So it’s better to not know the article exists at all. I’ll definitely be back here when the new season starts though!
Sue the Fury,
Thank you, Sue! It is so true. There isn’t a possibility that hasn’t been suggested, so nothing will be an entire surprise!
Just because jon/daenerys have scenes together doesn’t mean they’re gonna hook up, fyi. First of all, I’m just saying in general – I don’t think it’ll happen because
a) aunt/nephew incest? really?
and b) I don’t see Jon giving up the North – He is a northerner, through and through, bloodlines or parentage be damned. I can’t imagine him going south and giving up his whole identity to marry Daenerys.
Now will the two rulers meet to form an alliance or talk it out? Sure, I can see that happening.
oh, so there’s more than one scene? interesting…
All I’ve cared about since season 4 is seeing Alfie Allen getting some more lines and some more scenes so that he might – finally – get the recognition (read nominations) he deserves. So I’m pretty happy right now.
I don’t see Jon “scold” Theon. I think Jon has heard enough from Sansa to know better.
Traveling south doesn’t necessarily mean all the way to KL. The Riverlands, The Vale and the Iron Islands are all south but closer than KL.
restoresoff,
Cause aunts and nephews get married all the time.
So where are all the peeps that were set that Jon would never go south?!! I don’t think it’s for marriage though he is trying to save the world here people!
Morgoth,
It would be weird by normal conventions, yes, but far from weird in the wonderful world of Westeros.
Morgoth,
Not in Westeros my dear.
Morgoth,
Not really.
Tywin’s wife was his first cousin.
Yeah, well, then why the Lannisters get crap for it, but it would be completely acceptable when it’s a Stark? I mean, without taking into account that the Lannisters are dicks.
This is very exciting. Dolorous will be back, AMAZING!
Also, Jon meeting with Theon near the south is good as well.
Why are you trying to over-excite us. This week has been on fire with spoilers.
Interesting.
Where’s Meera? I assumed she would be at the Night’s Watch with Bran. Hope she survives 🙁
Morgoth,
In case of Tywin and Joanna, first cousins, its cool. But in Jaime and Cersei? Nope. As long as they’re not in immediate family, its acceptable.
Cousins is not the same relationship as nephew and aunt. Genetically i think the second are closer, if i am not wrong even places which allow the first still have the second as incest.
Edit, yes i was right. Aunt and nephew is like granfather with grandaughter or halfsiblings.
A second-degree relative (SDR) includes uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces, grandparents, grandchildren, and half-siblings.
A third-degree relative is defined as a blood relative which includes the individual’s first-cousins, great-grandparents or great grandchildren
There are many clichés in the series, I don’t know why anybody would expect that to stop now.
While in the south, Jon will probably prove he has Targ blood by riding one of the dragons. Then, he and his new bride will fly off to the North to scorch the Others when they breach the Wall. It wouldn’t be surprising if Tyrion was a dragonrider as well.
I wonder how quickly Cersei, Euron, and Littlefinger will be taken out. They’re basically the sub-bosses before our heroes face the Big Bad Night King.
Jon riding south… Am I the only one thinking about Arya being somewhere there? Maybe he found out she is there and left Winterfell to find her.
Or he had to leave because LF and Sansa did something? Because Brienne and Davos are gone too. And I don’t see him leaving Winterfell if there isn’t an important reason.
And I don’t wanna see a Dany/Jon marriage. I don’t see Jon fall in love and I don’t see him marry someone for a political reason. There is a big reason to pledge alliances. To save Westeros from the White Walkers. There is no marriage needed.
Fringe theory: Jon learns about R+L=J, he says “Fuck it” and abandons the North to make a pilgrimage to the Tower of Joy.
Maggie,
It’s permissible in Westeros, regardless.
Just to be clear, is the link to the earlier article is meant to indicate that the paparazzi photos of Isaac on-set were for filming this scene with Edd and co.?
Knew it, Jon has to be south when the wall comes down. Winterfell has to fall to the White Walkers. This isn’t confirmation that Jon is going to meet Daenerys though, with Euron causing problems, the ironborn might be split apart from Daenerys.
Sean C.,
They seem to be implying that. But they also acknowledge, Isaac could have filmed scenes with other cast members at some point and we don’t know about it. Lots of filming happens without us knowing.
Ugh I want Jon and Dany to happen sooo bad but I’m skeptical about s7 ..
These spoilers are good but not enough .. Just because Jon is travelling South doesn’t mean he’ll meet Dany .. Why would he send Brienne and Davos if he was going there too anyway ?
I need one shot, just one photo of Kit and Emilia together on set and I’ll be a happy camper. That’s literally all I need and I will avoid all news until the new season begins.
I swear it by the Old Gods and The New.
Speaking of Alfie, here he is with Nathalie today https://twitter.com/missnemmanuel/status/787020483912957952
Most exciting bit for me is that Jon is going south! What compels him to go south though? I don’t believe it would be to meet Dany or gather dragonstone. A king sends his people to do that. My theory is that the motive will be Arya or Sansa.
juji_mee,
My thoughts too… I’m having a hard time believing that Jon would just leave Sansa and Winterfell (especially if Littlefinger is still there!) at the same time Davos and Brienne are gone. I think these two events maybe happen at two separate times. I’d like to think maybe he’s going to find Arya.
Vital matters of peace and war are exactly the sort of thing the king would travel to deal with.
VRong!
crd007,
Going to find Aray or retrieve Sansa. Cercei could have sent kidnappers…
I haven’t been expecting Jon to sit at Winterfell or go all the way to Castle Black with what he has. The North is the least populated region in Westeros and he’s already got the support of most the Houses again, which isn’t nearly enough. It’s more important at the moment to get as many people as he can than strategizing with what he has that would fail miserably. Jon is more of a doer than a delegator. While I can see him sending individuals to different locations, I also expect him to continue to work on gathering people himself.
Oh shit, theon + Jon pretty much confirms the huge spoil we had yesterday. I’m positive WOTW crew is keeping the Dany+Jon thing under wraps.
Theon should just immediately shout “Ramsay Bolton tortured me, then turned me into both a eunuch and a slave.” just in case Sansa hasn’t already told him about all of that.
Not that Jon would forgive him, but I see him taking pity on Theon, seeing that such a sad existence is punishment enough for what Theon has done. Plus the semi-redemption he got for saving Sansa is factored in there.
Also, the Jon-Dany thing with them being related is overblown. Sure it’s gross on the surface, but they are adults who are complete strangers and have grown up not even knowing each other exist. It would be far more awkward and gross if Jon hooked up with or married Sansa or Arya, who are technically his cousins by blood. Unless you are siblings or parent/child either by blood or by growing up as such, it’s really not that big of a deal if two complete strangers who share DNA get into a political marriage, especially in this world.
You can’t compare this to Jaime and Cersei’s relationship, or Craster knowingly marrying and having sex with his daughters.
Maybe Jon is going south to get some dragons and dragonglass for the upcoming war of the dead?
Dany is the mother of dragons but Jon is their king. 😉
Now that Theon is serving under Dany’s banner, Jon can’t do anything to him anyway, even if he wants to.
You’re all going to be terribly disappointed when Jon turns out to be marrying one of the Sand Snakes and Dany winds up with Dickon Tarly.
Clob,
Getting more people won’t help against the White Walkers. Fighting them with a bigger army just means they have even more wights when the battle is over. I would think Jon understands that protecting the Wall is the only way to stop them.
Well, now I am almost convinced that Jon will go to Dragonstone for dragonglass and Theon will be come there with Dany and her Small Council on-board after they are beaten by Cersei and Euron.
It’s hard to think of a better place for the last Targarians to meet and the circumstances will be right too, because if Jon meets Dany after her defeat he will be compelled to help her as much as he can and that will lay foundation for a sincere alliance and friendship, which a purely political and forced marriage could undermine otherwise.
Guys armed with dragonglass weapons (or Valyrian steel) matter. And in any event, Dany has fire-breathing dragons, which would obviously be something Jon would seek out.
Also, protecting the Wall how? If men can’t fight the White Walkers, then the only actual defence is the Wall itself, which is unaffected by whether it’s manned or not.
Jeez guys, can we get 5 minutes to take a break between these spoilers? ?
Didn’t see that coming! I really can’t understand why Jon is going south, but I’m sure it’ll make sense on the show. It just goes to prove- I know nothing! ?
A plausible reason for Jon to travel far enough south to run into Theon might be Meera taking him to Greywater Watch to meet her father and confirm the story of his parentage that he has already heard from Bran but isn’t sure if he believes it. The Neck is not that far from the Iron Islands – though why Theon would be heading back that way if Yara/Asha has been taken prisoner by Euron remains a mystery.
Plenty of reasons for Jon and others to go south:
There could be a mass migration south to escape White Walkers like what the Wildlings did.
Stannis and Sam talked about Dragonglass being at Dragonstone so maybe someone goes to get some.
Attempt to convince more lords and ladies of the coming threat.
kam,
I totally agree, especially with this part you wrote:
Holy shit! I think its safe to say that by the time the show is about to start, we’ll be knowing every detail about what’s goint to happen. I just don’t know if it’s a good thing or bad.
The leaks are on fire this season. 😀
I can see Jon going to Riverrun to help Edmure out and in turn ask him to help with the WW. Or make a visit to the Neck and Howland Reed.
Not ready to ship Jon and Dany.
“Everyone is assuming certain things will happen but I won’t say if that is the case” sounds like a tease about the Wall (or part of it) coming down.
I just wish that Edd doesn’t get killed. That would make me very sad.
Interesting, like others have mentioned I don’t think Jon heading south means a Jon/Dany hook up, could be anywhere (Riverlands, Reach, Vale etc.) & even if he does meet Dany it could just be to form an alliance of some sort. Dany doesn’t really know much about Westeros in general let alone whats happening in the north & most of the Westerosi nobles have laughed off the threat of The Others (ermahgerd! Groompkins & Snerks, run!) so Davos & Brienne might not be able to convince her alone.
Surprised nobody has put out the idea they meet in Oldtown re: Sam. Maybe he’s held after a raid and that’s how Jon gets involved south – much more in line with his charter to be a rescue operation..
(Euron raid / possible team Dany loss / Jon off to rescue)
Jon heads to Dragonstone (there’s so much dragonglass there, would be foolish not to try to get it and make use of it in the upcoming war) or Riverlands (with the destination being Riverrun). He meets Theon on his way there or when he reaches one of those places.
Newbietothegame,
Based on the fact that the inner gate of the Riverrun looks burned in the leaked set photos, I think Edmure will take care of his castle himself. Cersei won’t be a threat to him until she beats Dany, but afterwards anything can happen. I can see Jon being frustrated where to go: Dragonstone; Riverlands & the Vale, the Wall, or even King’s Landing itself. Now it looks like he’ll chose Dragonstone, but where does he go from there is yet to be seen.
I don’t know about you but to me Jon hasn’t sounded very confident that they’re safe behind The Wall. It’s 300 miles long and already has weak spots even without the magics being broken. It was one thing to keep out Wildlings (which they failed at) and an entirely different thing to keep out the swarms of undead. We also have to remember that while the magic has prevented the Others from passing through so far, it doesn’t prevent the dead from being raised by the NK on the south side (LC Mormont’s attacker). In my opinion it’s a given that The Wall will come down or broken, Horn of Joramun or no horn. It will be a war of attrition until the living unite, become effective and eventually destroy the NK and/or his ability to animate the dead.
I have a couple thoughts. Instead of Bran crossing the wall and going to Castle Black, the Nights Watch could have traveled to Bran, seeing as he’s at the weirwood tree the Night’s Watchmen take their vows. Maybe they signal for help somehow? I just don’t see Bran purposefully crossing the wall knowing he’s marked. Unless he and Meera hadn’t put two and two together.
On Theon and Jon: I’m confused as to why so many people think Jon will want to kill Theon. Everyone already knows Theon didn’t actually kill Bran or Rickon, and it would be really weird if Jon and Sansa hadn’t talked about how she was able to escape Winterfell. If anything, I think their reunion will be on the pleasant side of things, maybe with Theon apologizing and Jon easily forgiving.
Ser Onion Knight,
When you talk of “Davos and Brienne meeting Dany at the Dragonpit” you should remember “Sam and Gilly meeting an elderly man” (who turned out to be a White Walker in case you have forgotten). The Dragonpit will be some major action sequence involving at least one dragon, not some sort of peaceful negotiations of any kind.
YES!!! want Jon/Theon scene…Alfie and Kit will tear it UP!!
Another posssibility is that there may be mass evacuation of the Northerners to the Riverlands that, with prior talks, agreed to host them.
But with winter spreading rapidly and to the other Kingdoms, that might not help matters.
I wasn’t expecting Jon to spend the season sitting behind a desk in Winterfell and sending out ravens in a futile attempt to convince the South that white walkers are real, so this doesn’t come as a surprise to me. Davos himself said that there’s only so much he can do to save the realm from some ice castle at the edge of the world. Different castle, but the point still stands. If he’s travelling south, it’ll be for tactical reasons, and it’ll be something too critical for him to resolve via raven or to delegate to someone else.
As for leaving Sansa there, why not? I would expect that after her captivity with the Lannisters and the Boltons, Jon would feel confident that she can manage Littlefinger as Lady of Winterfell, especially now that the Northern houses are pledged to the Starks again and she has information that can easily turn the Vale against him. Also, we don’t have a timeline yet for when Brienne leaves Winterfell, assuming that’s where the scene between her, Jon, Davos, and the northern lords took place. She could still be there when Jon departs.
At this point I’m very curious to see which cast members turn up in Spain over the next four weeks.
Clob,
I have been thinking about that wight who attacked LC Mormont, too. IMO, the dead man was reanimated outside the Wall and then put into a kind of a sleeping mode to be awakened at Castle Black. IMO, that’s how it works: when the WW or the wights kill someone they kind of infect the body with some magic, as Uncle Benjen implied in Ep606; then a person can be reanimated as a wight. But the Night’s King does not have the power to reanimate the dead on the other side of the Wall: if he had, the living would have lost long ago.
Why did you guys put à Syrio gif to start spoilers about Stark stuff! I nearly had a heart attack! 😀
Long-time lurker, first-time poster!
I fully expect Jon and Dany to meet and become allies in some form, but I hope they are already aware of their veryclose familial blood ties at that point. I really hope there is not a romance or marriage between them. I’m squicked out by the aunt-nephew thing. Also, isn’t she possibly barren? What is their plan for a succession if they are married to each other and end up childless? At least one of them should be able to produce a Targaryen heir. Monarchies without succession plans are very unstable and vulnerable to being overthrown by would-be rulers who do have plenty of potential heirs.
Also, I don’t think GRRM would have bothered to have Jon be the son of Rhaegar Targaryen if he didn’t plan to place him on the throne by the end of the series. If Jon is simply a temporary northern king who then bends the knee to Daenerys… frankly, any Northern house / lord could have done that.
But, very excited to see Edd again!!
Sue the Fury,
Thank you!!! Not cliche, try incredibly satisfying:-) With 13-15 episodes to wrap this up, the inevitable has got start to happen! It’s their destiny to meet. What happens beyond their meeting I leave to GRRM and D&D.
Ugh! I think that Dany may just feel that Jon as KITN is actually standing in her way of ruling the 7 Kingdoms. Remember Starks are just “spokes on the wheel” that she wants to break. Ned helped Robert overthrow her father’s kingdom. I don’t see “love at first sight” for Jon And Dany. Tyrion will have to talk her down and cool her temper to convince her Jon is honorable and trustworthy. Now, after that, maybe…..
Slothy,
Jon never liked Theon to begin with. Since he last saw him, Theon, in his eyes, had betrayed Robb, took the Stark’s ancestral home, killed Sir Rodrick, forced his really young siblings to escape to the unknown. Sure he ended up helping Sansa and that may steady Jon’s hand but I don’t see Jon ever forgiving Theon’s treachery. Theon better pray he never runs into Arya, that I would imagine would be his end.
Considering we only have 7 episodes I am baffled how they cram this all in. I don’t know, maybe Jon has to go all the way to Oldtown and set all those ‘irregularities’ straight for Sam to become a Maester, LOL!!!
Really, I got nothing.
Question here, what will the WW do while everyone is traveling around Westeros. Just hang around at the wall until everyone makes it up North? I mean, we would need to have some WW interaction with someone. Is the wall falling early in the season and everyone in the North is fleeing South? Edd and Co. can’t defend the wall against the NK and his army.
Ahahahaha!! Remember when people thought Jon would never leave the North or head back to the Wall? ahahahahaaha
I can see him going to Dragonstone to get some dragonglass. Whatever gets him away from Littlecreeper tbh.
But where is Jon going.to KL? Dragonstone or convincing lords? Also when?
Any ideas?
singedbylife,
Did he? Jon will not be happy to see him because he betrayd Robb and Starks. It will be interesting.
The Wall is still standing, intact, and protecting the Kingdoms. Jon and co still rely on it to thwart any possible zombie attack. For the time being at least. Jon is a man of action, a leader, not a boss, and they still have time to make preparations and move the pieces around, so him going places is entirely reasonable. Him sitting on his ass in Winterfell all season long isn’t. He needs to act too and not just hand out orders, then retire to braid Sansa’s hair. He counts on himself to get results.
Inga,
Well, I was imagining that the NK has a limited range with his ability. That is to say that if he were in the forest just beyond Castle Black he could animate a body within but not be animating dead in Essos from that spot.
I like Jon going South.
However it does worry me about one thing. So Arya will return to Winterfell and what? Watch Sansa and Littlefinger scheme all season.
Surely they can think of something better than that to do with her.
Sue, are there any signs of Ghost making an appearance or two this season?
Not to mention his beheading of Rodrik. As Sansa told Theon, Jon will probably forgive him but it may not be a very friendly reunion.
Clob,
Especially, if Jon is going there without Sansa. Without Sansa, Jon might not be that nice. Stark must always be at Winterfell and Sansa makes most sense to act as Lady of Wintefell. Arya and Bran might make and Jon go south. That would be shame.
Gotta admit – reddit usually does have some truth in all the bullshit after all.
Ben is the best. So enthusiastic. ?
Alicia,
Welcome!
Dany’s most likely not barren, in the books she had a miscarriage at the end of ADWD. This past season D&D spoke about how Dany believes the dragons will be the only children she’ll have. That Dany believes it doesn’t make it a reality. Also, Jon is just as likely to be steril, having been dead and all.
Regarding succession a Queen or King can name their own success if one is not available. Additionally, Great Councils have been summoned to select the next king or queen. Gendry if legitimize is actually Dany’s cousin four times removed.
Jon’s parentage is much more about he magical aspects of the story than anything else, I think. Why do you think GRRM has waited so long to reveal it, if it was important to the game of thrones (i.e. if he were legitimate) he would have revealed it a long time ago.
kam,
I agree completely. I think this whole Jon/Dany thing is bizarre and not likely to happen. This is GOT not a Disney movie.
moiaf,
His parentage isn’t just about magic (which the show has cut down compared to the books). It’s also important in terms of the ‘game of thrones’, which is why it’s getting revealed now that he’s no longer a NW member and the information can influence the story and political situation. If his parentage had been revealed while he was with the NW, it wouldn’t have mattered because his vows would have kept him away from the ‘game’. The fact that George has kept it hidden for so long means that it’s important.
Newbietothegame,
White Walkers are not at The Wall yet. The last time we saw Night’s King he was farther North than in season 5. He went back to deal with Bloodraven and Bran.
The Wall is still standing and protecting the Kingdoms. Jon and co still rely on it to thwart any zombie attack, for the time being at least. They have some time to go places, make preparations and mobilize for defense. The Wall won’t fall down until 707.
As for seeing WWs before they reach it. We don’t actually need that. Last season we had two scenes with them. I expect two in season 7. They may encounter Benjen in the first one. Season 8 is where they will be heavily present.
moiaf,
Couldn’t her miscarriage also just lend to the idea that she is unable to carry a child to term? I can’t remember the specific words of the prophecy.
Flayed Potatoes,
How is his parentage important for iron throne for example? You see with his KitN coronation, name means little. He’s KitN as a bastard over legitimate child. He doesn’t want iron throne and nor his claim is strong. In fact, claim means probably little, when anyone who wants the throne will earn it by conquest and not because he’s son or daughter of someone. Nobody will give Dany iron throne or Jon for that matter.
If Jon is a King at the end, it will be because of his actions against white walkers and not because he happens to be son of Rhaegar, who is not even Aerys heir. He named Viserys if I remember it correctly.
His parentage first of all matters to Jon’s identity and that is main purpose. George writes about characters, their emotions, journey and they happened to be surrounded by magic, schemes and politics. Just imagine his reaction that he’s not even bastard son of Ned but Rhaegar’s kid.
Also prophecy, as PtwP which was mentioned. As far as throne goes, his parentage doesn’t mean that much.
Well, damn. That crap I read yesterday from some reddit guy better not turn out to be true. Because it is crap.
She miscarried because she ate poison berries.
AGOT Dany IX
“Mirri Maz Duur was there, the maegi, tipping a cup against her lips. She tasted sour milk, and something else, something thick and bitter.”
ADWD Dany X
“Its flesh was tart and chewy, with a bitter aftertaste that seemed familiar to her.”
I think the game of thrones will be done this season for the most part. Also, if Jon were legitimate that would be very hard to prove.
Also this. I didn’t want to get into it but this will be devastating to Jon. It’s not going to be a good thing in any way for him.
Also would like to add, His blood is also important for riding a dragon. Even non Targ riders in history always had the right drop of Valyrian blood. It’s how they form a connection between a dragon and rider. It’s not for everyone.
So, we have Jon’s internal conflict as person, if they decide to do romance with Dany= conflict that he loves someone who happens to be his family. A bit close to what George originally intended with Jon and Arya to be in love and then to discover his parentage. A bit twisted version of his original outline. And prophecy.
Three ways to utilize Jon’s parentage and it doesn’t have to do anything with iron throne.
Geralt of Rivia,
It’s going to be important and devastating for him on a personal level (no argument there), but his parentage would also complicate things for Dany’s claim (whether he’s legitimate or illegitimate). Just look at how people are following him in spite of being Ned’s bastard. I’m not saying she’s going to burn him alive, but she could unite her claim with his for a more stable rule.
But hey, most of the people here think his parentage is not important or that they don’t need to marry and so on…I guess we’ll see 😉
Geralt of Rivia,
Twice now Jon has been raised to positions he never sought or even entertained. In neither occasion people bothered to ask his permission to catapult him into those positions. Knowing Jon’s luck, and I don’t mean good luck, someone will decide to name him King of Westeros and he’ll get shackled to that crown and be forever unhappy.
I would kill for Arya spoilers. Her plot is one of the main things that keep me watching.
you guys clearly the boat is gendry’s. he finally finished rowing!
Technically Dany can be rulling on her own but I never said it’s impossible for them to get married or form a couple. Just not a fan of it but hey we all have some preferences.
If Jon’s parentage never played any significant role, then why to have in the first place. It was always going to be key.
Jon is a unique person because he comes from Ice and Fire union. Dany has also blood of The First Men (Blackwoods) but this one is the very first time Targ and Stark had a child. Union between Targaryens and Starks is called The Pact of Ice and Fire.
Jon always wanted Winterfell and be a Stark. I doubt that Jon would stand in Dany’s way legitimate or not. His legitimacy is not even that important but his blood really is all that matters, as I wrote here Targ and Stark union.
Neverthless, it would be interesting to see how, when and to whom it will be revealed. Something tells me, we’ll have to wait until season 8 for everyone to know. Next season Rhaegar will be explained and hopefuly we’ll learn more about his relationship with Lyanna, Elia and how it went down with his plan.
Geralt of Rivia,
Yes, I think they’ll focus on clearing up who the father is, the R+L relationship and clearing up the family tree (I’ve seen people who think Jon and Dany are siblings or cousins).
I agree that it’s key, but don’t discount the fact that it can also have political significance. Like you said, Starks and Targs have never had a union before this.
Jon is not actually ice and fire he’s water that’s what you get when you mic together ice and fire together.
I have a couple of ideas why that might be important and how it relates to Dany but I don’t want to pester you all with my crack theories.
I’m seriously trying to get my head around this.
Who is going to travel with Jon? If Brienne and Davos are heading to the dragonpit, who does Jon have with him? Tormund? Other Northern lords?
And who is left in Winterfell? Littlefinger and Sansa? Maybe Lyanna Mormont?
Sue, I know you support GoT whatever happens, but surely you see that the Dany/Jon union is totally cliche- not in the context of the show, but in the context of fantasy itself. The hero and heroine uniting to defeat evil is such an overdone trope, and D&D can’t be forgiven if they revert to this in a conventional way.
It’s not a matter of “every possible outcome has been discussed before so it can’t be cliche”. It’s “this has been done so many times before in different contexts, so it’s definitely cliche, accentuated by writers and producers that claim to be original and unpredictable.
I know most of us predicted Bran would have scenes with Edd but I’m glad to get confirmation. I can’t wait to see Edd’s reaction to yet another of Jon’s siblings turning up at the Wall. I hope Meera is still with Bran when he has his scene with Edd and the NW; she’s done so much to keep Bran alive that I don’t want her to become disposable now that he’s within reach of family.
Theon and Jon meeting again after all these years (and without Robb being present) has me giddy with anticipation. They grew up as rivals who loved Robb and vyed for his attention, and Theon got to do what Jon wanted to do: go off to war by Robb’s side. Which of course Theon promptly screwed up. Theon’s twice stated that Jon will kill him if he gets the chance but Jon has never said anything of the kind. I’m dying to know if Jon will be forgiving or if the old hurts, jealousy, and need for justice & revenge will cause tension and conflict between Team Jon and Team Dany.
I actually didn’t think Jon would leave the North in S7 but this latest news is a welcome surprise. First because it gets him away from Littlefinger and Sansa (I hope) and gives him a story other than being clueless while they plot behind his back. Second, if he’s traveling to other parts of Westeros, that means he’s embracing his role as King & is seeking alliances and not relying solely on emissaries. And if he’s encountering Theon chances are he may finally meet Dany and see Tyrion again. The only thing I worry about is if he leaves Winterfell, he may miss reuniting with either Bran or Ayra. 🙁
BunBunStark,
Yes!! I agree.
I’m sad he might miss Bran and Arya, but that means imo they can reunite in season 8 and will certainly be safe until then.
Elybe,
What if Littlefinger keeps his word to Cersei and delivers Sansa’s head on a spike while Jon is off in the south (and all because she didn’t give into his pretty little picture!
We don’t know any of that. In the books he just died, so we don’t know the concequencds for book Jon. In the show it hasn’t been addres, but my supesition is not out of the realm of possibilities given that he was dae for at least a day. I’m not saying that he is, but there is a possibility he could be.
Danny,
It’s possible after the war of dawn, people will see Jon as the best way to move forward and elect him a King or someone will push him. Tyrion? Sam did that with LC position , Lady Lyanna Mormont with KitN, as you rightly said.
Flayed Potatoes,
One of my friends was like “Lyanna is Jon’s mom… but that means Ned and Lyanna ewww.” 😀 It might be like that for some others, because we know from the show that Lyanna is Jon’s mother. Some people thinks Robert is the dad, Aerys or even Arthur Dayne.
It might have some significance towards politics regarding Jon and Dany. That could involve it. We’ll see about this.
I expect Arya to make Littlefinger’s time in Winterfell nothing less than miserable. If he thought old sweet Jon was a threat to his plans, imagine how unsettling Arya’s arrival is gonna be for him. Poor Littlefinger… things are not looking good for him at all with Lyanna Mormont, Ghost, the Three Eyed Raven and a faceless assassin all haging out in Winterfell.
Tywin of the Hill,
The Tower of Joy was destroyed by Ned after Lyanna’s death in the books if I remember right.
Alicia,
Lots of old myths have a curse of infertility that SOUNDS like no baby. Egyptian: goddess cursed w/ barreness”you will never give birth in any month in the year” but they finagled 5 extra days at the end of the year by tricking the moon. The curse sounds bad but all those things the witch said WILL come to pass. In other words… Baby coming!
Yes.
Most people who have read the books know that George has been setting up a meeting between Jon and Danny near the denouement of the story from the very beginning of the books. Nearly every single variation of this has been discussed at nauseam, from open armed conflict to political marriage to love at first sight to Nissa Nissa style sacrifice to the ramifications of one of them or both being Azor Ahai…
Twenty years is a long time.
Obviously they were going to meet in the show; D&D have been setting up this since episode 1, season 1, probably taking their cues from George…
jdtargstark,
Didn’t Arya see him plotting with Tywin?
moiaf,
My friend always had a theory ever since ADWD. Jon is the only one capable of producing child with Dany because he was touched by magic, just like Dany. When you two talk about it, what if?
One guy on reddit also put up theory about their scenes in 6×01.
Dany said “she’ll never bear a living child until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east.” It was in that episode they showed the actual sun hovering in the east over the wall where Jon had died. |Their scenes do even follow each other. also Ghost howling, in the books she heard a wolf howling and making her feel sad and lonely.
Basically they throw that prophecy or what Mirri Maz Dur said to Dany and before they show some part of the prophecy with Jon. Like linking it together but don’t know about it.
moiaf,
Thank you for the kind welcome 🙂
Yes, I know Dany may not be sterile — we don’t know one way or the other. She may have miscarried a second child, or she may have simply experienced a return to a normal cycle. No one knows, Dany included, but I believe she at least thinks she is sterile — in which case, why would she propose marriage to her only other living relative (assuming they find out about his parentage, which I hope they will)? Most rulers would rather pass the throne on to a family member than some random lord they happen to like, unless their family member has qualities which would prevent him or her from being an effective ruler. Even in that case, they might still pass it on and try to minimize the damage by denoting someone else a regent of some sort.
I also don’t think that Jon’s parentage had to be Rhaegar-involved in order for it to have magical qualities. The warging, which is the only magical thing we’ve seen him do so far (and only in the books), comes from his Stark parentage. It just seems to me that an author wouldn’t create a secret lovechild of royal birth and leave him as the only living child of the former crown prince, if he wasn’t going to exploit that angle.
I love Dany and I hope she kicks Cersei’s ass from Dorne to the Wall and back again! I love Jon, too, and I think he also has great qualities that would make him a fine ruler. But… I just don’t think that both will be standing at the end of this.
If Jon goes to Dragonstone to mine dragon glass this year instead of sending a hired workforce to do that for him while he tries to make alliances with other houses / regions…. I think GoT will have lost a viewer here.
You guys really think Jon and Theon will reunite and Jon is just going to forgive him? It’s not that simple. Theon still took their home, torched those poor farm boys, killed Rodrik Cassel and Maester Luwin and God knows who else. And let’s not forget the northern houses attacked by the ironborn. If they learn that a greyjoy is around they’ll demand the king’s justice for sure and there’s nothing much that Sansa or even Jon can say in theon’s defense. I suppose it is a good thing they’ll bump into each other further south.
jdtargstark,
Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea of Arya and Littlefinger interacting but it feels like they are shoehorning her into this story.
And to take a character who has ruled her own storyline for 5 seasons and put her secondary into this storyline doesn’t sit right with me.
I mean who else is there for Arya to interact with other than these two? It just feels such a waste and that it doesn’t move Arya’s story forward at all.
Whilst I’m all for Jon getting out of this storyline, I just hate that Arya may be replacing him in it.
Sue the Fury,
Thank you for sayin this. I’ve been sayin it to people who argue with me for years about cliches in this story being that we already discussed everything so much in detail. Hopefully people understand more with you saying it.
AryaArya,
Yeah something has always told me that D&D aren’t so good at handling Arya’s storyline. And without book material to work off of, it will be a mess.
Poor Arya hasn’t had a good season since season three.
restoresoff,
oh please….we talk about this since 1996….its not cliché just logical for jon and dany the hint coming from the books are pretty obvious that their meeting will be special and quite unique…the hints are there,the propcies are there,the parralels between are there,the contrast between are there, all of that attract those those two character to meet….if incest is the problem…..daemon marry his niece rhaenyra,brandon “one ye” stark marry his niece,tywin marry joanna his cousin etc our own history is made of incest….the egyptian and and seleucid empire used incest to keep their greek ties with alexander the great and his generals….some even married their own mothers! the imperial china also did the same…
restoresoff,
Yep and it’s not like they don’t have a damn fine actress to work with.
I’m trying to be positive and hoping that Arya will still have her own storyline and that Littlefinger/Sansa will only be a small portion of it.
Sue the Fury,
This. The reddit asoiaf subs have a similar vein of blasé comments…we forget that we the fans are our own worst enemies! ☺
Arya Serious,
Wasn’t Sansa the one who had the opportunity to execute Littlefinger last season and didn’t? Jon has more important things to do at the moment than act as her guard dog, and if Sansa’s half as shrewd as we’re supposed to think she is, she ought to be able to sniff Littlefinger’s intentions out before her head ends up on a spike, no?
moiaf,
Actually no, Jon was dead for less than a day. He was killed just before sunrise and resurrected just after sunset the same day. You can see beams of daylight streaming into Mel’s chambers during her “reveal” scene. I know that Occam’s Razor isn’t really this fandom’s thing, despite the fact that the obvious keeps on coming to pass, but we’ve already seen Jon eating, breathing, and producing tears. The facial scars he acquired at Hardhome have healed over the course of Season 6. It’s plainly obviously that there are no physical consequences to his resurrection, and no mental ones beyond PTSD and an existential crisis. Whatever purpose it serves in the books, they’ve already spent an entire season of the show acting like Jon merely recovered from a strong bout of the flu. He’s not shooting blanks.
He is going sought to bend the knee to Daenerys
I’d kill to have Jon sit the iron throne in the end only to prove himself the worst king in Westeros’ living memory.
Isn’t that what George talks about? About how good men don’t necessarily make good kings and vice versa?
Why only talk about it? Why not show us? Jon makes every idiotic emotional mistake possible yet somehow still wins and gets KiTN’d – the least you can do is have him screw it up royally.
Inga,
Damn, forgot about that. Now I’m worried, I hope Davos doesn’t end up as a dragon happy-meal. 🙁
emperor,
Jon Snow cant do anything to Theon even if he wants, Theon is under Dany
AryaArya,
If it were to happen, I unfortunately believe that Arya would end up overshadowed. I really hope the plotlines do not merge.
Yeah, I would hope she would be smarter than that! He is such a snake I hope it’s one of the Starks who end up getting him and I hope it’s this season ?. I don’t want it to be Jon though I want it to be one of the girls that does it! I can’t wait for the season to start!!
– Then there is the Gendry storyline… Remember, it was Davos who put him into that rowboat to get away from Melisandre. Someone has to pick that poor boy up to rejoin the story and apart from Arya Davos seems a good guess. Just imagine a meeting of all these characters in one place: Arya, Gendry, Davos, Brienne… and Melisandre, who has wronged them all one way or another. And by the way, Gendry discovering that he had sex with a 400 year old woman would be hilarious 😀
– Also, it is weird for Dany to meet the Stark’s ambassadors in the ruins of the Dragonpit, which is in King’s Landing. If she has conquered the city and defeated the Lannisters, why doesn’t she meet up with them in the Red Keep. My guess is that her vision from the House of the Undying comes true: She reaches King’s Landing only to discover that Mad Queen Cercei has burned to whole place to the ground so that Dany can reign over the ashes. No city, no keep, no throne… that would explain why she chooses the Dragonpit to hold court.
– My guess is that the final showdown with Cercei will be at Casterly Rock. Dany is already damn close to Westeros in the final scene of episode 6×10 and she needs something to do the whole season. Even if she landed in the Stormlands or Dorne first, she should be able to reach King’s Landing by midseason. I think that Cercei will hear of her arrival, order to burn the city down and escape to Casterly Rock, which will be besieged by the combined Stark and Targaryen forces in the season finale.
– As there is no mention of Tyrion being in the Dragonpit scene, I guess that Dany will split up her forces at the beginning of the season. Grey Worm will be ordered to attack Casterly Rock from the seaside which is something Daario suggested in episode 6×10 (“Do you want the Second Sons to attack from the westcoast? If we take Casterly Rock, the Lannisters will have nowhere to run when you hit King’s Landing”). Tyrion will be send with him to advise the Unsullied on the weakesses of Casterly Rock (remember, he once was in charge of the drains and cisterns of the Rock which could be used as a secret entrance). I guess that Tyrion’s naval force (including Yara+Theon) will encounter Euron on the way, which leads to the promised sea battle. Euron will capture Tyrion as a gift for his new ally Cercei, which brings us to a Lannister reunion at the end of the season – just in time for the big showdown, when Jon and Dany arrive to besiege the Rock. Theon will also be captured.
– If Jaime is still loyal to Cercei at that point that would explain the foreshadowing from Riverrun last season where Brienne tells Jaime “[Should I fail to persuade the Blackfish to surrender, and if you attack the castle], honor compels me to fight for Sansa’s kin… To fight YOU”. Being in a situation where he has to choose between being loyal to Cercei (which means fighting Brienne and allowing Tyrion to be tortured and killed) or being loyal to Tyrion (and Brienne) will be the last straw to make him turn on his sister and become the Valonqar. [As a little sidenote: Jon attacking Casterly Rock would provide Arya and/or the Hound with an opportunity to fight the Mountain]
– Yes, I think that Jon and Dany will form an alliance to defeat the Lannisters before they turn towards the White Walker threat. Jon knows that the North needs the support of the crown to have a chance against the Army of the Dead. Cercei won’t listen to him, so he is dependent on Dany becoming queen of Westeros. But she does not know him and at the moment the King in the North is more of a rival for her as he rules over a big part of the kingdom she means to conquer. He has to earn her trust first and that’s why he will lead (a part of) the Northern/Vale army south at the end of the season to help Dany defeat the Lannisters. Jon meeting with Theon “further south” is another clue that this will happen. The Wall will probably fall in the season finale and it makes sense for Team Jon not to be at Winterfell when it happens, so the White Walkers can conquer the majority of the North before they can be stopped by the united armies of Westeros and Dany’s dragons (probably somewhere around the Neck). Remember, we have 6 episodes left after the season 7 finale to cover only one major plotline. There must be more to it than just a big battle near the Wall.
Except – very conveniently – the one character that seemingly won’t screw up is the morally upright traditional hero, the oppressed underdog. Entirely by chance, of course.
Nothing wrong with that – it’s not like we’ve heard this story a thousand times before, right?
restoresoff,
I freakin love it, book reader first here, been waiting since ACOK Danys blue rose vision for this….
The WWs are almost at the Wall. They were at BRs cave en masse when Bran escaped and were snapping at the heels of Bran and Benjen at the end of the season. Sure, Benjen may have been on horseback but they’re not far behind. And they’re heading directly for the Wall- they have nothing else to do now they have the army of the dead and a way to breach the magic of the Wall.
Even with Tyrion pleading, Dany might still behead starks so maybe Theon can vouch for Jon Snow ,
Finally, finally Jon will be going somewhere south, south of Winterfell, that is! High time! That boy needs to expand his horizons a bit. Also, as he said to Edd, post-resurrection, he wanted to go somewhere warm…..
I don’t know HOW far south he will go. Perhaps he meets Theon somewhere in the middle, and then travels south to KL with him?
But WHAT is Theon doing there anyway, with mad uncle on the loose, and perhaps sis in said uncle’s clutches?
Geralt of Rivia,
Personally, I have no doubt they are going to have a kid. I’ve long suspected this story is going to go the route of Rheagar/Lyanna 2.0, with Sansa taking the role of Ned. This opinion was only strengthened a season ago when they suddenly paired Jon/Sansa up and Weiss started talking about how important they’ll be to the other moving forward. Also, remember that throwaway line from early in season 2. Jon asks Sam “Who’s going to deliver a baby out here? You?” Yes. Yes he probably will.
Yep.
They are filming there for almost a month, so definitely they could be filming multiple scenes…
duvrov,
Why would she want to behead Jon? Not like he is responsible for anything regarding RR directly. He was product of Rahegar’s and Lyanna’s love but just a baby.
Where do people came up with ideas that Dany wil want to punish Starks for crimes of other people. Ned was angry at Robert for allowing Tywin to kill Aegon and Rhaenys along with Elia. Not like Dany would blame it on Stark kids.
Theon is the one too look for Jon because what he did to them but while Jon will be angry at him. He’s got other things to do. Maybe even forgive him.
orange,
Rhaegar and Lyanna parallel is possible. She belives they were in love and it was romantic. Sam delivering baby? I always pictured Sam as a Maester in King’s Landing or a new capitol. As for Sansa being Ned 2.0? Not sure about that and I wouldn’t really push it literally like this with situation mirroing each other.
jdtargstark,
Technically Theon didn’t kill Maester Luwin. He was killed by Bolton men when they overthrew Theon. Beheading Rodrik was bad enough though so you have a point when it comes to the bannerhouses calling for justice. However, there is such thing as mercy and depending on the circumstance he may not want to ‘ruffle scales’ by attempting to punish someone under the wing of Daenerys…
The meeting will be a most interesting one, to show us whether Jon has grown as a political leader since Season 1. Jon will resent Theon because he betrayed the Starks in the past. But Theon is now allies with the Dragon Queen, and presumably Jon himself wants to be allies with the dragon queen because of the WW threat (or because he’s he’s found out she is a relative?). Does he swallow his need for revenge or does he give in and fight Theon, and jeopardize his chances with Daenerys? Daenerys and Tyrion are fully aware of Theon’s past transgressions and have accepted him as an ally, despite that.
George,
I must be the only one who doesn’t see how D&D have been setting up a Jon/Dany meeting from the beginning. They are two very different characters who want very different things. I’m sure I’ll get booed for this, but I’d rather see Jon ultimately make a new pact with the white walkers and stay in the north with Sansa, where he belongs, while Dany abandons the Iron Throne and goes back to where she did the most good. Much death will occur before all that, but it would a GoT ending.
Hahahahaha! Is that why I find myself with a lot less to say on most subjects? Must be. Thanks, Sue!
Skimming through the comments, something occurred to me: We saw
Lettin’ the tinfoil unroll tonight, folks!
Throught the first season we see that every Dany scene is followed by a Jon scene and/or vice verse. Adittionally, you can find parallels between the character in every episode they appeared together that season. The showrunners weren’t as obvious in season two but there were still parallels between Jon and Dany in most of the episodes they both appears in. Seasons three through six have many parallels between Jon and Dany but most are not as overt as in the first two seasons. You have very obvious parallels like the ones we saw in episode 6×09.
Although their temperaments are different they share many things in common. A very curious parallel they both share but few have noticed is that they both have been fighting slavery. Dany has been fighting the most obvious battle in Slaver’s Bay while Jon has been fighting the White Walkers. And if you think about it the WW are slaver’s of the dead. They kill people and enslave their bodies in order to do their bidding.
The idea that Jon would make an alliance with the Nigh’s King baffles me. Jon has seen what he and the WW are capable of and after the events of Hardhome you would think that Jon’s main prerogative would be to destroy them. And Jon hasn’t even found out what they did to Benjen.
If you mean Mhysa moment because that’s the only parallel between them in this episode. Actually that was idea of Miguel Sapochnik and not D&D, it wasn’t planned by them. Miguel just thought it would be cool to have. Kit talked about it.
I wasn’t talking about the scenes were Jon and Dany are surrounded by people.
I was talking about the obvious parallel in that they both has a parlay and a battle. Dany’s parlay was successful so get battle short and sweet. Jon’s parlay not so successful, so he had a lon bloody battle.
moiaf,
Maybe, yeah we count that too. Dany is till had to fight. I find it interesting this have so many of them. I guess two main protagonists, two leaders raising. I’m not sure it signals romance (they might have one) but really contrast between themk and how they approach things.
Wow, WOTW has been on fire lately in terms of spoilers!
Finally a Jon spoiler, a girl is happy now. A Theon -Jon meeting has to be interesting.
If Zumaia is standing for Dragonstone, I hope the locals keep an eye out for Kit.
Inga,
haha!! An ¨elderly GENTLEMAN¨if I recall correctly! 😉
moiaf,
Points taken, but I see Dany as a conqueror, on the way to taking back what she believes is rightfully hers by birth. Whether or not she will ever rule is the question. Jon, however, knows that he’s not entitled to anything by birth and is a reluctant warrior and King, fighting only because he must. He must defeat the WW, but he wants home and he wants family. This is GoT so who knows, but I don’t see these two ever marrying and ruling the world, and I don’t understand that theory at all. As for the WW, I think history repeats itself, and it’s possible that the ending may involve some sort of pact. Or the WW will be defeated, democracy will replace monarchy and the wheel will finally be broken.
orange,
I agree…but I wouldn´t fret that much over it…most of what ´leaks´is bs…the only true leak was the one from last season,apparently from some extra, that did get most of it right,although I don´t remember if he leaked some episodes,many episodes or all episodes
There is nothing in the series (books or show) that even hints at the possibility of democracy. Westeros is nowhere near that stage of historical development, and it’s not something any of the main characters would think about for a second.
Geralt of Rivia,
To be honest,apart from not wanting the Jon Snow character killed,the only thing I dread is to see Kit Harington jumping and bouncing of a fake, nonexistent, dragon…I shudder at that thought 🙁
Kosten,
Have you read the books? Do you know what Jon did to Gilly? Granted Jon had a good reason and he didn’t do it to gain something for himself yet what he did to Gilly was awful. Something Ned wouldn’t be able to bring himself to do regardless the circumstances. So, yes Jon is the most decent and pure hearted of all the key characters but a white dove and flawless he is not. And frankly I don’t quite understand why people have problems with decent hearted characters. Choosing to be a good person is a lot more difficult than being bad, making the conscious choice is excruciating at times and it doesn’t always come naturally and yet people fall madly in love with the anti-hero. I’d say that in a world full of anti-heroes like GOT (here’s looking at you Jamie), it is good to have a Jon Snow, a Brienne, a Meera, etc.
Suzenne,
When you cut straight down to it the thing dany most want or yearn is for a home and family too..its one of the reasons why she wants to go to westeros..house with red door and her loss of family is frequently shown in her thoughts and how she misses them…of course the show completely ignores them..
She is raised as an exiled princess wanting to take back what’s taken from her family and restore its legacy ..
While jon is raised as a bastard that does not get anything and the only place a bastard can rise is in at NW ..so he joined there ..
Just because she is fighting for throne does not mean she is power hungry or selfish and doesnt care about people..she is the one who believes that its her duty as queen to protect those who can’t protect themselves and believes a queen is for the people and must put her people first before her..
What do you think she would have do if she finds about the WW .will it be any different to what jon doing ..
I believe in dany dying but I also believe she can survive …but just because she survives and rules doesn’t mean its an happy ending …those who survive will be wounded and lost many at the war and stay forever affected and will be given job of patching things up .
And as it stands only jon and dany are thr only trained and properly equipped leaders in this regard..
Inga,
One is from the official synopsis and other is from the article ..
Iam not even sure that this both events are even comparable particularly when we don’t even know all the details of the characters present
https://twitter.com/missnemmanuel/status/787156131441438720
Farewell Belfast?
dragonbringer,
Can I ask you something: What was your opinion of Stannis Baratheon?
Jack Bauer 24,
She is going to be at italica on Monday ..
Danny,
Choosing to be a good guy and at always faced with hard decisions and has to choose the best between two bad choices or finding a third choice which is better then the two options is more difficult..
For me jon is the least grey of all the main characters and that is mainly because he didn’t have that many controversial decisions to take or most of the times others took the action upon themselves..
I know what he has done but iam speaking about comparing to other main characters like tyrion dany and arya..
dragonbringer,
Well the people who have excuse the mutineers’s betrayal by saying how Jon deserved what he got for betraying his vows to the Watch disagree with you as far as making controversial decisions. Did he not choose to go save FArya from Ramsey? He didn’t get to do it but that is not his fault. Did he not choose to protect Alys and thus assume a role he did not actually have? Did he not choose between sacrificing Dallas’ baby and Gilly’s baby and opted for the third option which was sacrificing Gilly herself? I would say that Jon has had to make more difficult choices than Tyrion.
Though I do get that all of those examples came from BookJon and not the tv version but as a reader I hardly ever make distinctions between the character versions with the major exception of Ellaria Sand for obvious reasons.
Danny,
He is a typical middle brother who is awkward with people and jealous of how popular his brothers are ..
He is just and dutiful ..he tries very hard to make a name for himself and overcome is brother’s shadow..
He does not care about whether people is of low birth and not afraid of raising them into nobility..
He listens to council and reprcted and proven battle commander ..
But i know you must be asking about his attempt at saving NW ..saving realm to get the throne.
It took three books and davos advice to stannis to finally realize this ..
But dany did not have anyone nor she was raised with the proper learning’s of a queen but she has the right idea straight away .
Edmure is the next guy after dany in putting people first and then comes stannis.
PS. Iam not counting jon in this
Arya serious,
And when it was suggested Bran might not yet go to Winterfell, instead staying near the wall to be there when the NK stops by, people just assumed of course he is going to WF. I still don’t think Bran be the one to tell Jon in S7. We shall see, hope I’m wrong
Danny,
TV version impacts the book events in most of the times and we don’t even know.
But I agree with you what you are saying.. I never liked this complaints about Mary sue Gary stu ,plot gifts and armor predictable and cliche …but this fandom likes to over use it ..
And regarding stannis his yearning for getting a name for himself and recognition is why he jumped to quickly at Mel proclaiming him as hero and why he wanted to take the throne..I know he says he don’t want the throne but his actions speak otherwise .
If i had my way i would have had stannis support renly ans made him king…together they would have been unbeatable..but as it happens its the brothers themselves were responsible for their own downfalls
I guess it’s inevitable that Jon and Dany will meet but I too am against a romantic union between the two. Jon should only be focused on defeating the WW, ensuring that his “siblings” are found and safe and discovering his parentage. No time for falling in love. 13 episodes left; we don’t have time for a romance. Dany is his aunt so they can be allies without a marriage pact. IMO, your aunt could equate to your mother so I would be disappointed if D&D write Jon/Dany romance. This would go against Jon’s character.
duvrov,
You give Dany too much power
1. Yep, pretty much.
2. All of that may happen yet, but not without them meeting. Just because they are going to meet doesn’t inevitably mean they will stay together? Romantically or otherwise. Heck, one of them or both might die before the end of the series.
So many great spoilers!
Random tinfoil speculation based on the spoilers, books, Grateful Dead songs, and a re-read of The World of Ice and Fire —
When Theon and Jon meet, Theon will ask for forgiveness. I don’t think Jon will behead Theon; I think Theon will sacrifice himself fighting for the Starks near a weirwood, maybe even at the Gods Eye, and his blood will have special significance.
Winterfell could be a source of dragonglass. The World of Ice and Fire mentions Winterfell’s geothermal activity/similarities to Dragonstone and Valyria. Perhaps Sam will figure this out at the Citadel and tell Jon.
In Jon’s visions in the books, he is always being drawn down into the lower levels at Winterfell even though (because he is part-Targaryen) he doesn’t belong there. Not only will he find dragonglass, he will find those dragon eggs that Vermax laid. I wonder if resurrection will make Jon more heat-tolerant?
I hope the scene with Littlefinger and Sansa discussing Rhaegar’s kidnapping of Lyanna is not foreshadowing that LF will kidnap Sansa (or even worse, that Sansa will willingly leave with LF) to lure Jon into a war with the Vale.
Geralt of Rivia,
I wholeheartedly agree. My friends and I have been discussing this over and over since the season 6 finale. Dany had her period again in the fifth book. Jon and Dany will have a son – the pact of Ice and Fire will be fulfilled, he will be the last dragon, the last Targaryen, a child born amidst the war for the dawn and the embodiment of a dream of spring – the future King of the Seven realms.
We also think both Dany and Jon will die and the baby will most likely be raised by Tyrion.
Hence the bittersweet ending. A good ending but will a tremendous amount of loss as GRRM said.
What everybody seems to be omitting is that GRRM and both Dan and David knew how it was going to end from the very getgo.
Considering how much the TV series diverges from the books, the only thing that seems clear to me is a Jon and Dany union.
The visions at the House of the Undying, her talk with Drogo about her having a child, the red comet appearing on the sky during Jon and Dany scenes, the ‘ressurection’ factor – Dany emerging from the flames and Jon being brought back to life, the fact that both Drogo and Ygritte – their first loves – are dead, being elected and beloved leaders, the fact that they’ve never even been on the same continent at the same time let alone see each other, you would have to be a blind fool not so see the overwhelming amount of hints and parallels here.
You guys not only have the parallels between Jon and Dany have been there since episode one they increased tenfold in season 6.To the point of the directors actors and showrunners explicitly saying it hello ice and fire rebirth in episodes 3 and 4,hello people proclaiming them tptwp.Do you think their storylines were the only ones in episode 9 just for shits and giggles?And culminating with the two of them both entering the great game in the finale.Not even mentioning they are the last two Targaryens left in this world.To think they will not meet and form some kind of relationship is ludacris.And why do people hate them so much?These two people have had such shitty life and are headed for an even worse fate.Don’t they deserve a good fuck before they go?lol
Jenny,
No, beause it´s incredible shitty and cheesy storytelling (IF it would happen this way, which is not known yet) . Even Disney does more in-depth stuff these days.
I think the dates given (oct 17 to nov 12) include the final preparations by the crew as well. So the actual filming time may be lesser than that.
And some people wonder why Daenerys is so disliked. She and her fans have this immense sense of entitlement and delusions of grandeur. She’s so powerful, she’s so impactful, so perfect, so beautiful, so good and kind (yeah burning people, including kids, alive is a sign of goodness-book verse). She’s the most special snowflake in the history of special snowflakes.
Daenerys will face many obstacles in Westeros. It won’t be smooth sailing (as that would be atrocious writing) like it was in Essos (the conquering part that is, because her ruling was shit). Her armies will be severely damaged. She will need more alliances. The North is bigger than all the other Kingdoms combined. It’s already allied with the Vale and will soon be allied with the Riverlands. Jon will soon have more than half of Westeros under his rule. If she wants to rule and be accepted she needs those Kingdoms on her side. She gave Iron Islands independency, her alliance with Yara is on equal terms. If Jon allies with Daenerys, it will be on equal terms too and if not and she refuses him sovereignty she will be defined by hypocrisy, bias and nepotism. Also caprice because she did say Kingdoms were welcome to ask for independency.
Jon would have little to fear from Daenerys if it came down to conflict with her. Daenerys invading the North in wintertime would be akin to Napoleon and Hitler invading Russia. One big failure of a campaign. Like Cersei said, the North is too vast and too wild. And with winter there, it has natural defense against any southern incursion.
In TWOIAF, dragons are said to have been struggling immensely in harsh weather conditions. Blizzards and sub zero temperatures should hinder their effectiveness significantly. And riding on a dragon in such conditions should be nigh impossible. The riders are unprotected on dragonback. They don’t have the gear for it. The severe winds and snow would be several times as strong when flying at great speed. It’d be far-fetched for a rider to be able to hold onto the dragon, not freeze to death or not have their head ripped off.
The story started with Westeros being united under one rule. It had been like that for 300 years, it will be stale narrative if Westeros remains as one unit governed by one monarch. This is a tale of change, the system of government will be altered, the feudal system is already being deconstructed. I doubt there will be an Iron Throne in the end and that Daenerys will actually survive and have a chance to rule.
Like I said in the earlier comment, what I got from the previous WOTW report was that the final preparations by the crew will begin on the 17th. Filming may start a bit later? It looks like filming at the Italica and Zumaia (24th to 29th) are going to happen simultaneously and Team Dany will be required at both places. I wonder how will they manage that. I think these 2 locations are quite far from each other. Maybe filming at the Italica (for Dany’s team at least) will start after Zumaia is done.
Jupiter,
This! ?
I’ve never understood why people are constantly marrying Jon off to Dany. And if it’s not Dany its Sansa! I don’t think anyone’s getting married. I think Jon & Dany will fight to be honest.. The whole fairytale ending is not GRRM at all!
Aegon and his sister-wives were able to conquer Westeros only because it was summertime and their dragons were ten times bigger than Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal. Westeros has also made marked progress in terms of weaponry and military since then.
People have been way overrating Daenerys and her resources. She does not have absolute power because of the strength of number of her army and dragons. Drogon and Co are not the size of Balerion or Cannibal. It took like 5 minutes and all three of them to sink one ship, Drogon was harmed by the Harpies, how effective can they be against thousands upon thousands of armed soldiers and hundreds of ships ? Dragons, of their size particularly, are NOT invincible. And a downed dragon is not hard to eliminate.
If it’s not the humans or White Walkers who will kill the dragons, it will be winter itself. The weather and the famine that results from it. Food will be scarce, and dragons need a lot of sustenance, so unless they start roasting and eating people, they’re at risk of being starved to death.
As for her army. The Unsullied have been pretty underwhelming on the show. And Dothraki. Well, if I had to bet on a Dothraki warrior, with his leather gear covering only half his body, or a fully armed skilled knight, I’d bet on the knight. Dothraki have no experience in battling an organized Westerosi army. And they have never had to live and fight under harsh weather conditions. They’re not prepared for it, they’re summer children, not used to and hardened by rigid climate. When winter hits them, they will be dying like flies. Their horses will go first.
So Daenerys’s strength comes mainly from Greyjoys, Tyrells and Martells.
Yes, it’s mentioned the place will be closed off to the public during that time for the pre-production and filming. I’d guess the filming itself will take about 10-14 days at most.
Sophie and Alfie 🙂
https://www.instagram.com/p/BLjuP-QgwFT/
OOPS! I was wrong about Jon traveling south. But it was also decided that there will be a Stark family reunion with Bran and Arya early on when they were really filming Bran at the wall. The more likely scenario is definitely Bran meeting Edd at the wall. That definitely seems more logical at this point. Now why is Jon traveling south? I’m not even going to get into that since it can be for any number of reasons. I am not quite preparing for a Jon/Dany marriage complete with 2.5 kids at this point. But who knows in the future. George has SO MANY balls he is juggling in the air that he still has to catch. It is definitely true that fans of the whole world of ice and fire have had years to speculate regarding clues, parallels, predictions that every prediction IS cliché at this point. I try not to rule anything out. However, there are other relevant characters, not just Jon and Dany. When there is too much fixation on these 2 characters it can diminish other very credible characters and possibilities. Has Bran even been suggested in this particular discussion? He is the most powerful character and he can warg which means he can control a dragon. Also, he once said early in season 2 and in the books that he will fly one day. What about Sam at the citedal? What was he able to discover? What about the chaos that must be down in the riverlands and at the twins due to Arya? We also have Jorah wandering around looking for a cure for his greyscale? We have Euron possibly traveling north? When it comes to predicting how the story will end in the TV show and clues, I try to keep in mind that D and D had no idea how the story will end until after they wrote the scripts for season 4. That is when they spoke with Martin. Any episodes before season 5 (even though season 5 greatly differed from the books) isn’t D and D heading toward the endgame. They had no idea in season 1 how the story will end. When they wrote the scripts for seasons 5, 6, and 7, they knew the endgame.
H.Stark,
So she won’t be wearing a wig. Her hair looks dark. So until recently (when she was still blonde) she hadn’t been filming. Unless it’s an old photo.
asoiaf fan,
I think for season four too.Wasn’t the meeting in summer 2013?They could still make little changes to season 4 scripts.And before that I think they knew some things too.They knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna and I remember this event just before season 3 started and they said George had told them who would be on the throne in the end.So they knew the broad strokes.
Clob,
Harren hall
That was red herring by the showrunners IMO.
The iron throne will likely cease to exist by the end of the story… one of the principle themes throughout this show is about how it’s the little people who suffer when the Lords play their game of thrones, The big fish eat the little fish, Dany breaking chains and planning to “break the wheel” etc.
The IT is symbolic of all of these things. So it’ll either be melted by dragon flame (or even wildfire), the great houses will be extinguished and the remnants of the 7Ks will be governed by the people, as a republic.
Gendry’s boat
Apollo,
That was not my point.I meant that they knew the ending in advance Iron Throne or not.But to your second point I think it’s possible that the Seven Kingdoms split up again but I very much doubt it’s going to be a republic.Westeros is nowhere near that point and there are no characters that have that kind of thinking.
restoresoff,
The cliche that was promised.
I doubt it’s an old photo, but it is surprising she hasn’t filmed yet especially since all of the North pretty much have already.
AlexG,
Not realy fancy him on a dragon either but if story requires it. Who am I to tell George or D&D what to do. It’s up to them but it kill a bit of realism in his battles. He fights like one of his soldiers, goes through warfare as it is a show us what basically soldiers are dealing with in battles.
Jenny,
IMO, Westeros is moving towards centralisation and enlightened absolutism, rather than to a medieval republic with an elected king. Of cause, the rule of rex electus can be introduced, if Dany and Jon die heirless. However, I pitty Westeros in such case: my country had elected monarch from the late 17th century (and even before heredital monarchy was ofter combined with election), but in two centuries this democracy ruined the state and led to its disappearance from the political map of Europe. So, rex electus is not a panacea.
Jenny,
That’s true. I agree. They definitely knew who Jon’s parents were. Many of those clues were in book one, I feel with Eddards’ chapters. They might have known if some one was going to be sitting on the iron throne. But the ending itself, I think that was a mystery to D and D until sometime during season 4.
Maybe Jon isn’t a Targaryen, making it not so weird if he marries Dany. I mean the show and the book are really different now, so it may play out differently on tv vs. the books. In the books, there is a wildling woman named Val, whom Jon seems to have a thing for. Some interesting food for thought, atleast for book readers, can be found in some you tube videos I found, which contradict the wildly accepted notion that Jon is a Targaryen There is a lot of evidence from the books that most people don’t look at when trying to make the R+L=J theory true.
.https://youtu.be/ye-G3PO5izM
Well before the series even premiered they talked about knowing the ending. Interview is from April 2011
So I’m guessing that their meeting in 2013 was to discuss the ending in more detail, or perhaps to learn the fates of some of the secondary characters. This meeting is probably where they learned about Hodor’s and Stannis’ fate.
Bryan Cogman in 2015
Inga,
That’s what I mean.It takes a lot for a republic and Westeros is nowhere ready for it.It’s not like we already have a movement and characters who endorse it.Not even a near apocalypse would change that.On the contrary I think the people would want the ones who saved them to rule in a way or another.
A girl who works at Laverys said on twitter sophie was there last night with kit and alfie and that she still vry much a blonde. Plus, Sophie has been in and out of Belfast since the week before the Emmys. Do you guys seriously think she’s just there all this time doing nothing?
I get why Grateful Dead songs, but which ones are you using in your speculations?
And maybe this is why GRRM has said he thought about changing things, but that he had laid the groundwork and didn’t and couldn’t really go back and have the story make sense. Also, this could be part of the reason it’s taken him so long to finish, he doesn’t want people to call his storytelling “cheesy”.
Ovate,
Sure Jan lol
Jenny,
They have already had power and respect for a few seasons. They have already been in love (Jon/Ygritte, Dany/Drogo). It just seems like more of the same to me, and it sounds boring.
Dark Lark,
Uncle Jo(h)n’s Band!
(I’m not a Deadhead but my husband is so I’m listening for clues all the time.)
There is nothing in the story suggesting Westeros will, or even could, be a republic. Transitioning directly from feudalism to democracy does not happen. You need far great civic literacy and education, better communication (the printing press), etc. Moreover, this isn’t something any character in the story is thinking about; if this was something that was on the table, there would be actual movements for it, and main characters at the centre of this change (a lot of people, weirdly, posit Dany, the purest autocrat amongst the protagonists, as a proto-democrat).
ygritte,
Exactly! I don’t think he will be there either. I really think he is supposed to be at the wall this season. D&D said we will be learning more about the wall this season so it make sense to me that he would be at the wall (or at least VERY near it) when we learn this new info. I think that reuniting the Starks is a huge deal and they aren’t going to give us that early in the season. I think more that we will have more near misses where they are in close proximity and can’t quite make it there yet. I think if Bran does go to WF it will be right after Jon leaves so they don’t get to all be in the same place at once (at least not early on). And what’s more I think that there will end up being another faceless man wandering about Westeros this season – perhaps looking like Arya while Arya is acting like someone else. A way to get close to the Starks… I don’t know. And with Maise going back and re-reading the script it is possible!
Jay Targ</strong
It reads that George has always known where it was going to end up. Where does it say specifically in that article that David and Dan also knew back in 2011 where it was going to end up. They have talked through what the final episode in the final season will be, but they never admitted they knew what George's ending would be. Perhaps they were aware of certain elements. The way they are wording it is ambiguous to me. In other words, no where in this article are they stating "we know the ending." They had a new show for HBO at that time and book six wasn't even released. It reads as if they want to reassure people who are book fans. Also they were aware where certain characters were heading in the story but that doesn't mean they knew the ending in season one. I actually saw the interview when they admitted that George shared the ending with them. The show writers are very careful with their wording at times, as are actors. Before season six, Lena did an interview about her story arc. All she said was "Cersei still has a few tricks up her sleeve." Look how that turned out.
Lyrics here:
https://play.google.com/music/preview/Tya3qhsqapd6upkwt3blo3gcatu?lyrics=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=lyrics&pcampaignid=kp-lyrics
or this
Well the first days are the hardest days, don’t you worry any more,
‘Cause when life looks like Easy Street, there is danger at your door.
Think this through with me, let me know your mind,
Wo, oh, what I want to know, is are you kind?
It’s a buck dancer’s choice my friend; better take my advice.
You know all the rules by now and the fire from the ice.
Will you come with me? Won’t you come with me?
Wo, oh, what I want to know, will you come with me?
Goddamn, well I declare, have you seen the like?
Their wall are built of cannonballs, their motto is “Don’t tread on me”.
Come hear Uncle John’n Band playing to the tide,
Come with me, or go alone, he’s come to take his children home.
It’s the same story the crow told me; it’s the only one he knows.
Like the morning sun you come and like the wind you go.
Ain’t no time to hate, barely time to wait,
Wo, oh, what I want to know, where does the time go?
I live in a silver mine and I call it Beggar’s Tomb;
I got me a violin and I beg you call the tune,
anybody’s choice, I can hear your voice.
Wo, oh, what I want to know, how does the song go?
Come hear Uncle John’s Band by the riverside,
Got some things to talk about, here beside the rising tide.
Come hear Uncle John’s Band playing to the tide,
Come on along, or go alone, he’s come to take his children home.
Wo, oh, what I want to know, how does the song go.
Written by Jerry Garcia, Robert Hunter • Copyright © Warner/Chappell Music, Inc
That’s incorrect as I understand it. D&D have known the basic ending for the story from the beginning. The meeting mentioned was for them to learn the ending for ALL the characters.
This is the Vanity Fair interview: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2014/03/game-of-thrones-benioff-weiss-interview
Lonely Cat,
Cool, thanks! I too listen and wonder, what with GRRM a fan and naming the weirwoods after Bob Weir and all.
jdtargstark,
By that logic no wars would ever be ended. Peace among enemies would never occur. Forgiveness is absolutely possible and sensible.
Dark Lark,
I read the article and I didn’t read any information regarding D and D knowing the ending of the story back in season one. Maybe I just missed it. They were discussing how they sat down with George in 2013 and talked about how each character’s storyline will end. George stated he had very definite ideas about some characters but he left other story lines open for the time being. Now that information was pretty specific to me, as opposed to some kind of vague stuff that is open to interpretation.
dragonbringer,
Why do so many people get Renly wrong? He was an arrogant jerk who clearly intended to kill his brother so he could usurp the throne. And not all usurpations are the same. Robert’s Rebellion was justified, Renly’s Rebellion was not.
Davos and Brienne… no doubt more opportunity for the writers to show how horrible Stannis is and how it wasn’t at all a spiteful jerk move for Brienne to murder him like that… Murdered, I say, and may D&D choke upon their fables. So many problems caused by killing Stannis, such as the Northern storyline being so screwed up. I know the stereotype that book readers are snobs who hate the show for being different, but the reason I don’t like what the show did is because it made bad changes and the writers show a massive misunderstanding of the themes and characters.
Jenny,
Sorry, little Jenny. No glitter- shitting pink dragons, dancing mice and singing peasants for you….
Ovate,
Aw come on man why do you have to ruin my hopes of glitter-shitting pink dragons?!! I want singing mice that help me with chores too!
The problem with your statement about The North is that while it’s the largest in land mass it’s also sparsely populated, the least populated region in Westeros. Others are commenting similarly as it concerns defending The Wall. The North does… not… have… the manpower.
In the books Robb was only eventually able to scrape up just under 20k during the War of the Five Kings, just as in the show, and they’ve taken massive losses since then. The Vale is estimated to have about an equal number of fighting men. The Riverlands before the war could manage about 15k. If all of the remaining fighters from those three regions follow Jon he still only has maybe 30-35k. He’s still outnumbered even by the Lannister army when it comes to troops.
I don’t think there is going to be a direct battle between Jon and Daenerys however so the numbers don’t concern me in that relation.
Clob,
Jon heading south: “South” from Winterfell doesn’t have to mean central Westeros. He could be riding around the North putting together a defense or he could be escaping the Walkers, but the odds of his deserting the North in order to go around Westeros begging for allies is unlikely. Who will believe him, and why? He has Davos for that, anyway, and Littlefinger. I think that once Littlefinger sees a Walker, he will figure out that dreams of ruling Westeros will need to be delayed. Littlefinger is potentially Jon’s best envoy in this situation.
I suspect that this will be the season to make it clear that whatever Jon does, he, the North, and the Vale army are screwed until Dany and the dragons show up. They can’t fight the Others as they haven’t done anything to make obsidian weapons. There is one Valyrian steel sword up North that we know of. Anyone who dies in battle with the Walkers rises immediately as a wight, so the Walkers have an endless supply of fighters. They don’t need to worry about logistics, as their army doesn’t eat, doesn’t worry about the cold, etc. This is going to get ugly before it gets better.
Dark Lark,
True, they said they knew how it would end from the very start, this article is from 2011:
Series executive producers D.B. Weiss attempted to further calm their nerves, telling TVGuide.com, “We’ve talked through what the final episode, the final season will be.” Executive producer David Benioff adds: “We can’t wait to write that episode. Of the many different fears we have about the show, long-term momentum is not one of them. We’re very confident.”
http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-thrones-lost-1031645/
And here is another:
Thankfully, we have it all outlined, because it’s a juggling act. And then George reads the outline every year, and gives his notes and thoughts… We’ve been teeing up stuff all the time, since season one. We’ve known answers to questions since season one, the fates of certain characters. We know we can finish the story, so we’re certainly writing with that in mind.
http://www.vulture.com/2015/04/game-of-thrones-showrunners-on-changes-from-the-books.html
Canal Cat,
Dude! On the first link you HAVE to go into it and look at the comment section…HILARIOUS to read at this stage in the game so many years later ?
Arya Serious,
Yes! Something is going to come out of all Arya’s time with the FM training, something I think is more than just crossing some baddies off a little list, and I believe it could be part of what was alluded to by either Sophie or Maise as “heartbreaking.” Maisie did say beginning of S6 something like she’s going down a dark path and she thinks it will be hard for her fans to stick by her. I don’t see her getting killed off though, as she is one of the “safe five end game characters” according to what we’ve always heard. Unless….the show runners have switched it up and given her ending to Sansa instead. If not, do you think she could go after Sansa? What could she possibly do that would cause Arya to turn against her? Besides plot with LF against Jon to the point where Arya has to end her to save him? I find it very hard to believe that Sansa would go that far, it’s way out there…
ygritte,
Perhaps Maisie Williams underestimates the depth of the fans’ allegiance…
The showrunners did everything they could, I believe, to make Arya’s killing of Walder Frey as offputting as possible : from turning his eldest sons into food to slowly slicing his throat while sporting an almost ecstatic look on her face to the bluntness of her lines (references to carving people, etc). Yet, a significant majority of viewers cheered her along the way.
Like they celebrated Jon’s crazed attempt at smashing Ramsay’s skull and Sansa’s serene delight in his massacre.
Like they encouraged Arya’s dreadful murder of Meryn Trant.
We, as an audience, are much more bloodthirsty than the writers, it appears. ^^
On a broader note, this balance between “necessary or survival-driven” and “gratuitous or cruelty-motivated” brutality is at the very core of Arya’s character and, ultimately, the show, isn’t it ?
This young girl suffered tremendously and has had to survive in an extremely hostile world with little to no guidance or affection. And now, she is trained to kill. How could there not be, at the very least, some “mishaps” ? How could she not, at some point, kill (or almost kill) someone who may not “deserve” it, no matter what merit system we refer to ?
Morgoth,
Not weird for Targaryens. But if they don’t even *know* they’re related at that point, it’s even more likely.
Bran is near the wall so makes sense he’d run into the Night’s Watch
Thing with that though, is even though he is 3-eyed Raven, he is actually Robbs undisputable heir as KiTN above all other claimants…
Not surprised if Jon is going South
He sent Mel there
IMO next season focuses on the Rhaegar/Targaryen dimension of his lineage, so looking forward to some Tourney at Harrenhall flashbacks etc as in this medium visual is best way to go
I actually reckon Mel will fetch Dawn from Dorne (lol)
maria,
I couldn’t agree more. As I was saying, Jon and The North don’t have the strength alone to stop the NK nor hold off a large force from the south, which I don’t think will be necessary. I don’t see Jon traveling around the southern regions himself further than possibly The Riverlands, but he does need to seek assistance in any way he can.
ACME,
That’s a good point regarding Maisie that I haven’t thought about before. She’s admitted that she hasn’t read the books, being so young when the show started and all. She’s going through the story fresh starting as a little tomboy and portraying that as she grows, lives through a lot of bad things, etc. Perhaps she’s not seeing Arya quite the same as the typical viewer/reader that actually WANTS her to continue raising her level of badass and take out as many assholes as possible along the way. Arya is a favorite of so many because of all the things she does, including the ‘darker incidents,’ not simply because she was a plucky little girl.
ygritte,
I know a lot of people like Sansa but I like Arya infinitely more and I hope she makes it to the end so I hope they don’t switch it up. She is on a dark path, yes, but that particular one was a necessity kill I believe (Frey). I think there are a few that she has to take care of to make her true to her Stark justice roots and then she will be able to feel at peace (in my opinion). It’s her “Kill Bill” hitlist that she will take care of or die trying. And as we saw in the last season she can have a conscience and isn’t just a cold blooded killer. And there are names that I believe she omitted from her hitlist given to the waif because she has had time to really consider who is on it and why. That exercise was to get her to not so much admit to the waif what was the truth but to herself. And I really think it is still in play (the FM in the story). We will see!!
ygritte,
Oh no!…what if she ends up sticking Sansa with the pointy end on accident? And Ned predicted the way Sansa would die all the way back in season 1. That would be awful!
Dark Lark,
Good!
Arya Serious,
Your preference is quite the norm, do not worry 😉
Arya has been a massive fan favourite since the beginning of the saga.
Clob,
Yours is a truly interesting take indeed.
Is Arya “simply” increasing her level of badassery or is there something more going on underneath ? Do we, as readers and / or viewers, like to think of her arc as one of badassery because we like her and perhaps, at times, do not want to see what might be the signs of a more worrying trend ?
And, more generally, do we give more of a free pass to the Starks because they have been our “heroes” since page one ?
In my entirely subjective opinion, Book Arya is something of a tragic figure : her inner monologue very often refers to the “hole” in her chest where her heart used to be and that will never be filled again; she fantasizes about (or wargs into) Nymeria who roams the Riverlands with a pack of wolves (not direwolves); her sole constant lifeline is a somewhat inaccurate hitlist; the number of her victims increases quite steadily; etc.
She is still a young girl who experienced hugely traumatic events, had had to live on her own for way too long and struggles to keep on fighting through another day.
Now, I do not think she will ever become an insane murderer and go on a completely baseless rampage. She does manage to maintain some kind of connection to the world and her heritage, no matter how tenuous that link may be at times. However, I wonder if we can truly qualify her arc as going merely from plucky to badass to even more badass, without taking into account the more traumatic and possibly life-altering aspects of the storyline…
Jon’s attack on Ramsay, Sansa’s murder of him and Arya’s execution of the Freys all had one thing in common : the level of violence was disproportional to the express purpose. There was no need to either smash their skulls into oblivion, turn them into dogfood, carve them up or draw out the slicing of their throat; a stab directly into the heart, a hanging or a beheading would have more than sufficed. While the killings were necessary, the manners of killing most certainly were not.
The Starks dragged it out, made it as painful and as violent as they could. I doubt it should be brushed off as mere revenge…
In Arya’s case, this display of sadistic violence was not a first for the gruesomeness of Meryn Trant’s murder was equally unnecessary. She could have killed him quickly; she chose not to.
Might there be something else than simple “badassery” at work here ?
I guess Dolorous Edd Lord is Commander? They could have left the position unfilled, with Edd as ‘steward’. Seems Edd and Bran will have a conversation. Was there was a marginal Night’s Watch character left at Castle Black after season 6? One that never had lines? Seems that Grenn should have been kept , still alive in the books. Actually Edd has one , except some new character to talk to.
Wholeheartedly agree!
ACME,
My bad feeling about Arya’s storyline is that she is really turning into no-one. I loved her so much, and now all of the sudden I can’t route for her anymore, because in the Winds of Winter she was a killing device, rather than a character. And now when it looks like she’s going back to Winterfell, I feel even worse, because her dream of home and family will almost certainly turn into ashes when she faces the bittersweet reality. Both she and people she once loved have become unrecognizable, they’ll have problems with adjusting to one another again. Moreover, Jon might be again too fixed on the big picture to see that people around him have big personal issues. In other words Arya may be doomed to a similar fate like Olly and I expect her to run away from her family somewhere in the mid or near the end of the season. She might play a pivotal role in Cersei’s demise and I think she will, but the price for that may be har falling under the influence of the faceless men and choosing them as her only true family. As for the faceless men themselves, how many times do you think they saw their apprentices going home just to return with the tail between their legs? And they have been trying to get Arya since S2, if not S1. They have invested a lot into her and possibly her going home was exactly what they wanted, because if she returns she’ll be theirs forever. And Jon will forever regret giving his little sister the Needle, because it will turn out that it was he who pushed her to the dark side.
ACME,
I agree with your subjective opinion 100 percent. There is nothing “badass” about what arya is doing. It is actually very concerning in regards to her future storyline. I was very attached to her since the beginning. It made me sick when I experienced what her character suffered. I was inspired by her family loyalty. Maybe that is why I was originally ok with her story arc. So I just made excuses for the fact that she cut up Frey’s sons and served them to their father in a pie, before slashing his throat and watching this with some kind of ecstasy. This is Arya the “bad ass” so it is ok? She started on this dark path and I worry she won’t find her way back, and she has suffered irreversible damage.
Rhaenys Stark,
That’ll just mean that they’re rushing the crap out of it..
Clob,
Jon has the Vale army. He’s not going to get an army from the Riverlands, as the place is starving and under Lannister control, and he has no other options for making alliances while the civil war is going on. Dany, Cersei and Euron are not going to make peace in the name of saving humanity. Most I can see is Brienne and Davos get Dany to think about what they have to say.
So Jon’s options are limited to the North, and he has some time, as the Wall has not yet fallen. Fortifying the Wall with the wildlings and Vale army, fortifying forts in the North, taking civilians to safety, digging in are Jon’s only real options, until Dany wins.
And Dany is crucial. She has the dragons. When she takes King’s Landing, she will have wildfire. With Dragonstone, she’ll have access to obsidian. I’m making a wild guess that the Wall falls around the time Dany triumphs. Predictable, but they have two short seasons. To some extent, this needs to be predictable.
Inga,
asoiaf fan,
I actually think she’ll “come back” rather than eventually fall into irreversible darkness. Arya is still Arya and she’s never shied away from killing those that have harmed her, harmed her family or desire to do so. She’s been doing it since the moment she left King’s Landing. She’s just better trained and efficient now. She’s still a rather ‘normal’ person outside of her self-assigned duty.
I personally think D&D and directing of her killing Walder was just as much about the drama of the act. As in the books, everything that he was made us hate him and want to see him meet his end. From the moment Arya was outside the castle as the Red Wedding happened most people have wanted her to be the one to do that. The show runners are fans of the books as well and obviously desired the same outcome. In doing so I think they embellished the act to attain said drama, even added the Frey Pie that is pulled from theories of an event that happens as book-Arya is still in Braavos.
I called Arya’s actions “badass” in no relation to her psyche, as it can indeed steer her in a bad direction as the writer’s and people suggest. I simply refer to her actions visually and directly with a bit of video game mentality. We wanted Walder to be punished for his actions, we wanted it to be as satisfying as the Red Wedding was crushing and we wanted it to be Arya, who’d been reciting him name for so long. They successfully removed her from a situation where the casual viewer feared she may die in Braavos to surprisingly showing up in the finale using her FM skills confidently. I might add that they couldn’t have her doing that scene looking scared or unsure of what she’s doing. She had to be shown as doing it with absolute certainty that Walder should be executed.
So, back on my thought that Arya will not fall into and remain in darkness. For the longest time she’s been living and acting essentially alone, seeing almost everything and everyone as being bad and self-serving. That includes nearly everyone since Yoren was killed and Gendry was taken from her. I believe that if she can get back into more normal situations she will be able to move on. I think a reunion with Jon and/or Gendry could be a big step in bringer her back and giving her hope for the future.
maria,
Right. Jon doesn’t have the strength to hold off the NK and he knows it. If the NK gets through they won’t have enough unless all of Westeros unites. I don’t think he’s going to sit idle nor be satisfied trying to fortify The Wall with what he has without also attempting to get all the support he can. The Riverlands appears to be a likely first attempt. The Lannister army could very well be called to KL by Cersei as soon as she learns of Daenerys, leaving The Riverlands in charge of whomever is next up. A person that is likely not the jaded hardass that Walder was. Still, it’s very possible he has problems gaining support for his efforts until things are settled in the south, and it’s nearly too late.
I’m not seeing the same show as some, I guess. Arya witnessed her brother’s body paraded around with his wolf’s head sewn to it, the massacre of northern troops by their hosts, learned of the murder of her mother….yes, her list is planned out, yes, she psychologically fucked up Walder before killing him. And? I don’t see that she had the option to put him on trial, hang him before his peers, etc. He needed to know WHY she did it, and who she did it for. Revenge? Of course. She hardly goes around slaughtering people at random, see Lady Crane, see her change her mind with the Hound, see her still bothered by “Does death only come for the wicked and leave the decent behind?”. Meryn was her first hitlist kill, it was brutal and sickening, and it made me worry. Leaving the Hound to die was worrying (however many of us knew it would serve for his eventual return). But Walder….come on. Arya will certainly need to learn diplomacy with her enemies, but I don’t see her simply adding to her list forever for any perceived slight.
As for Jon – he certainly was fair enough in his execution of his murderers…and having your brother deliberately shot down in front of your eyes as a game not a few hours prior would make most people a little less likely to reign in the punches, especially when the person is still actively trying to kill you. Jon is impulsive certainly, but I don’t fear for his humanity.
As for Sansa, although I personally dislike her and think she has the potential to fuck things up, trust me I have no problem with her getting a little pleasure out of the death of a man who repeatedly raped and tortured her.
Is all of it disturbing? Sure. Is it surprising? No. Fortunately I don’t live in a world where I need to act out any of it, but if something incredibly cruel happened to my family and the only form of justice was my own, I doubt I’d pull a Sand Snake and just stab someone in the back.
ACME,
I think what happens to Ramsay is justified. Ramsay was a torturer, flayer, rapist, patricide, baby killer, a man who had his dogs rape his victims before he flayed the victims alive. Jon was not particularly cruel, and Sansa’s decision to feed him to his (hungry) dogs was a good deed for the dogs, and not off the scale in terms of cruelty. imo Ramsay is a special case and deserves everything they do to him.
Then there’s Arya. My sense is that the show (and GRRM) want the audience to be torn about her. The audience probably wants the Freys and Trant dead. I think the visceral response to watching Arya kill is to cheer her on. I think the not-so-visceral response is that no kid should be placed in a position where she’s having to kill, and any audience that can enjoy watching a child kill her enemies needs to stop and think twice. I think the show (and GRRM) are trying for a multi-layered response.
All this discussion of Arya going to the Dark Side reinforces my belief that the resolution of her arc is the main reason why Lady Stoneheart was put into the story, and that cutting her out of the TV version was a mistake. Arya needs some big psychological jolt to deflect her from her path as an assassin, make her tear up the rest of her list and move on to something resembling a normal life. In the books, I believe that she will cross paths with LSH and quickly realize that the most loving thing she can do for her mother is to administer the Gift of Mercy. After that, further revenge killing will have lost its savor, and she will be able to let go of all that. What the TV version will substitute for that moment of identity crisis is anybody’s guess, but something like it is clearly needed, in my view.
Inga and ACME,
It’s possible that Arya’s return home does not necessarily make her No One, but someone whose just actions will lead to the Many Faced God (MFG) getting more faces. . I’ve long theorised that Littlefinger suggested Ned’s last minute execution to Joffrey (LF had means, opportunity, and lots of motive. Plus Joffrey lacked the necessary deviousness and imagination.) Perhaps Jaqen was in Kings Landing as Littlefinger’s backup plan to kill Ned in case Joffrey reneged. If so, Jaqen would have been aware of Ned’s amazing daughter. Seeing her many talents and outlook, he recruited her by offering her the FM coin TO HELP HER COMPLETE HER LIST. Perhaps, in addition, maybe the MFG had been cheated of many thousands of deaths by the Nights King’s zombiefication of so many dead people. Jaqen might have surmised that Arya, a Stark of the North and a key player in her family AND an avenger, might participate in some action that would reverse the zombiefication and just leave all those people dead dead. From the point of view of the FM, that would be a win-win winter. Yes, that is far-fetched, but possible.
Back to ‘reality’. Arya is neither heartless nor sadistic. Sadly, the fun-loving little imp of a girl is irrevocably gone, but she warmed to the Hound and-surprisingly-Tywin. Even during her FM training Arya kept her identity in keeping Needle, imperiled herself to spare Lady Crane, later responded to Lady Crane’s motherly warmth, and dreamed of exploring west of Westeros. Every one of her kills has either been accidental (the KL stable boy), self-defense, or JUST revenge for family and friends. Yes, she taunted Meryn Trant as she butchered him, but who can blame her–he had just been torturing little girls. And using a short-bladed oyster knife would require lots of stabbing and slicing. Her more ritualistic murder of Walder Frey was not especially drawn out considering he had not only killed her mother and brother and the Stark army, but had broken guest rights, and had committed abominations on her family’s corpses. And it was poetic justice. (IMO, it seemed quite merciful compared to the poetic justice Sansa meted out to Ramsay.) The slice of pie was fan service to Frey Pies in the books, but it also has acceptable antecedents in Shakespeare, history, and mythology. As the saying goes, revenge is a dish best left cold. She is now calculating, stealthy, and capable, but I’d bet a gold Dragon that her future kills will also be just and rational. I hope she learns just how much mayhem Littlefinger brought about and kills him too. And I think that Jon, Gendry, maybe even Sandor, will bring her heart back again.
asoiaf fan,
I think that is part of the bittersweet ending. All of these characters have suffered greatly and I think it will be hard for every last one of them to pick up after the chaos subsides.
Stark RAven Rad,
Don’t get me wrong: I am not over-worried about exessive violence, but rather about Arya’s over-empowerment. Such skills come at a price, and I don’t think the Manyfaced God which is death in person can be tricked.
But what could be the agenda of the MFG and it’s servants especially as far as it concerns the WW? On the one hand, it might look like allies or an extension of one another: the WW are death incarnated, and it’s rather clear that the FM provoked the Doom of Valyria, which eventually led to the extinction of dragons, which in turn led to the rise of the WW.
Yet, on the other hand the WW are undead and there agenda might be to give the gift (or rather a curse) of the eternal life for all and everyone, which undermines the fundamental balance between life and death. So, the MFG might be interested in restoring that balance, and Arya might have tool or a mediator of some kind. Therefore, her giving herself fully to the service of the MFG might not be as bad as it will seem at first. Maybe, she will be the one to kill or rather to undo the Night’s King and/or free Jon from the cycle of continuous resurrections which also undermine the balance between life and death, or something similar… All I feel is that Arya is on the way of becoming a champion of the MFG/death the same way as Jon, Dany, and Bran and that she will play some role in restoring balance at the end. But the quest may claim her life, or her identity and I see the darkness of her path not in excessive violence, but rather in her becoming faceless. Yet, as I said it may be required for the restoration of the balance between life and death… But then again I may be overthinking.
Stark RAven Rad,
Just wanted to say that you have the coolest fucking name I’ve seen here!
Sean C.,
Well a form of democracy over monarchy would be breaking the wheel. But again just a possibility. Who knows where GRRM is heading.
It’s not cliche when it was bound to happen since the beginning.
Historically there are usually multiple steps between a monarchy and a democracy. But it seems feasible that, if someone who thinks outside the box like Tyrion were in charge, a postwar Westeros might be able to transition to a parliamentary system where the monarch is mostly a figurehead and a larger governing body must work out a consensus.
FINALLY Jon/Dany will meet. It’s so close now i can almost feel in my hands.
Firannion,
Historically parliamentarism and election of the rulers was rather widespread in Medieval Europe: of cause, medieval democracy didn’t foresee voting rights for all an everyone, but the nobility (including minor gentry), or to put it otherwise “all the men who wielded swords, practiced that rather successfully. The problem was that it didn’t break the wheel: bloody feuds between noble houses were replaced with bloody wars between different parties and fractions, and that created an environment in which more centralised and more imperialistic neighbours could easily interfer, and eventually countries with more “democracy” became an easy pray for neighboring empires disappearing from the map for a century or two.
On the other hand, Westeros has no neighboring empires around it, so probably abandoning the idea of heredital monarchy and introducing elections of the king might be a solution. (Again that’s what really happened in many countries when their ruling dynasties died out).
Regardless of what Jon has heard from Sansa I’m pretty sure he’ll still have some strong words for Theon. Think about it…he pretty much betrayed the Starks totally and took over Winterfell for the Greyjoy’s and for a long time it was believed he killed Bran and Rickon, not to mention all the rest of the havoc he is responsible for. I think Theon will be forgiven, but I don’t see Jon welcoming him with open arms back to the fold.
I have to agree with you. I don’t think Jon believes they are safe behind the wall. He knows the NK & WW are coming and if he leaves WF then I believe it’s to rally support. There’s been no mention of him and Bran together filming (not to say they haven’t) but I’m wondering how long it will be until Jon finds out just who his father really is. Good Lord it’s going to be a LONG winter and spring.
Elizabeth, it seems to me that everyone forgets that Rob was the one that put Theon in that predicament. He was incredibly loyal to him and the Starks (and wished he was a Stark growing up amongst them) until Rob thought that Theon could get his father to actually assist them. I find it incredibly naive on Rob’s part to think that Baylon was going to just say ok son I will do what the Starks want. Nope he put Theon in the position where he would have to choose between blood and honor. I know that Theon made the choices on his own but he should’ve never been given the opportunity to make those choices in the first place. If Ned had been there Theon most definitely wouldn’t have been allowed to go but he understood who Baylon was and Rob didn’t. I guess that is the frustrating part of watching the story unfold is yelling at the characters when they make their million mistakes. I think that Theon will be not so much forgiven by Jon, but tolerated for the benefit of Sansa and the fact that he did get her away from Ramsay. At least Theon is a good person (who did terrible things), but Little Finger is a bad person who does some seemingly good things and if anyone should be dealt with it is definitely him. We all know those good things don’t come for free! Theon’s castration has taken him down quite a few pegs which should serve him well in the future I believe. A humbled Theon will do much better in front of Jon at this point than the over confident, self absorbed Theon that Jon knew growing up! I see Theon begging Jon’s forgiveness (probably crying like a baby unless Yara is there because you know ‘homie don’t play dat’!) and Jon being utterly shocked at the shell of the person before him. Theon did terrible things but the only reason the search party didn’t find Bran and company was because Theon killed the Miller’s boys so he has one thing going for him…Bran is alive! Ok two things, Bran is alive and so is Sansa! Theon has suffered greatly as his punishment for betraying Rob and taking Winterfell and I think that Jon will kind of see that as his justice. Jon seems to have a love for cripples bastards and broken things as well. Being in the Nights watch has given Jon the ability to look at a person’s situation and view them accordingly. I guess we will see how they handle it on screen ? can’t wait!!!!
TheKingWhoCares,
Yeah, I don’t think Jon or any Stark force for that matter is going south to do any more battles. Only battles they are going to do from now on is anyone invading the north. Makes zero sense for Jon to waste time taking a meager Stark force to Casterly Rock. Something bad will happen to Dany and her army that doesn’t allow her to beat Cersei and the Lannisters right off the bat. Probably Euron. Also, Jamie won’t be on Cersei’s side at some point this season. No way Tyrion gets captured and given to Cersei. She would kill him instantly.
Sue the Fury,
LOL Hell yea.
Sue the Fury,
That’s not true. Anyone who joined the show at season 4 (a lot of casual viewers) guessed/hoped that Jon/Dany would get together. It’s a common fantasy trope for the hero and heroine to unite against evil.
kam,
Just a heads up man…. the entire series is based on The War of the Roses…. in which a war was settled by marriage of uncle and niece.
I’m not for it. But It was always in the cards. He’s a dragon. They have to have a kid too. Gonna be rushed, but it’s coming. That’s my concern that it’s all too fast.
Ae,
I think Henry VII and Elizabeth of York were actually cousins and their marriage ended the War of the Roses. Could be wrong, it’s been a long time since world history class.
Inga,
asoiaf fan,
I have to confess that I, very much like Clob and Stark Raven Rad, do not think Arya will go full dark… There is still a deep sense of longing within her, one Lady Crane was able to tap into. And, as Brother Ray said, “it’s never too late to come back”.
Will she “come back” as a full-time Stark, living permanently in Winterfell with whatever is left of the pack ? I doubt it. It is of course highly subjective but I believe the “west of Westeros” reference was crucial to Arya’s mindset and potential endgame. I do not think she could fit again in “normal” society. Not completely at least. To be entirely honest, I even wonder if she would want to. She never wished to be a lady, never cared for social norms, never tolerated concerns over propriety. Why would she conform now ?
However, I can see her eventually choosing to explore the world, travel about. Happily this time.
As Firannion very rightly pointed out, something will probably jolt Arya out of her vengeful mindset and allow her to move on. It may be a very close call though…
On a more general note, the main object of my interest and curiosity was not so much Arya per se but our (I do include myself, of course) “forgive and forget” policy when it comes to the Starks. At times, I feel that our affection for this particular family blinds us to their worst deeds or most blinding missteps; to reference an abysmal, tiny-fingered vulgarian, the Starks could shoot somebody in the middle of the King’s Road and they would not lose any of our votes !
Because, in our minds, they are, have always been and will always be the “good guys”. However, a good guy is as a good guy does. When our protagonists start behaving in ways eerily similar to their infinitely less palatable counterparts’, what does that make them ?
When Jon emulates Sir Gregor by attempting to disintegrate someone’s skull, when Sansa takes after Ramsay by feeding a living man to hounds, when Arya follows in Joffrey and the last Bolton’s footsteps by using people’s mutilated body parts to torment their relative, doesn’t it challenge the “Starks are special snowflakes” spiel ? At least a bit ?
It does not make the new batch of Starks “bad” or “evil”. It makes them human; they are not above giving in to their darker instincts because it “feels good”… But we cannot blind ourselves to the fact doing whatever “feels good” has a price tag. Unella and Cersei know it better than anyone ^^
To be quite honest, I do not think George RR Martin has ever subscribed to the “good guy / bad guy” dichotomy. With the (possible) exceptions of Ramsay and Joffrey, there is no “evil” character in ASOIAF and even these two are not utterly devoid of humanity and pathos. All his characters are on a spectrum ranging from “admirable” to “what the fuck” and they oscillate, depending on circumstances and individual aptitudes. And the Starks are no exception to him, no matter what they or we may wish to believe. But it is all, of course, just my very personal and highly disputable opinion ^^
A Dornish Tyrell,
Thanks ever so much, my friend 😉
Ae,
Not quite.
Elizabeth of York was purported to have been in love with her uncle Richard, and was perhaps even his lover, though he was married, his wife was sickly.
But Henry Tudor, who was something like a fourth or fifth cousin to her, defeated her uncle Richard at the Battle of Bosworth (a horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse). Then he took her for a wife.
Suzenne,
You are right, I believe.
Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor were remote cousins.
The uncle/niece relationship may be a reference to Elizabeth’s rumoured liaison with her father’s brother, Richard III, but there was no marriage between them.
Edit : TxanGoddess was quicker 😉
Arya Serious,
I have to agree, reading what you wrote, that Theon has paid a heavy price. He made alot of mistakes and he’s come back from the torture he received. It’s going to be interesting to see just how the show handles it, indeed. I’m still wondering why Theon is in the South so this should be interesting.
Also, did anyone actually read the entirety of Ben Compton’s interview? He said that he’s been filming GOT, then also said he is looking at another series to take him through to March. I hope this doesn’t mean we lose our beloved Dolorous Edd early in S7. I really love his character, but after reading that he’s moving on to another series AND it should take him into March I worry that he won’t be filming over the winter like so many other actors. What do you all think?
Elizabeth,
Oh no Edd! Fingers crossed that it just means he only had a couple scenes this season rather than the alternative. If he only had a couple of wall scenes then he wouldn’t need to be on set…right?! Oh man now I have the feeling that the wall will indeed come down this season and that’s what Maise’s “holy balls” comment meant. D&D said that season 7 we will learn more about the wall and how it was made and that the wall would be a big focus this season. There is something from one of Bran’s visions that we haven’t seen happen yet and I will find the clip and time so someone else can look too because it’s been really eating at me. Will post separately for that once I pull info.
Elizabeth,
http://youtu.be/8gh0-4hOzyw
This is the video I as talking about with Bran’s vision from S4E2. Look at the time between 1:17 and 1:20! It is the NK approaching what looks like a pile of broken ice and his reflection and you can see a crazy colored sky reflecting off the ice as well (much like the color of the sky in scene where the NK turned the baby). And you hear Bran say “He saw us!” Now, the scream he did and the line was much like he said when the NK touched him in the vision last season. Only it was “us” in the S4E2 vision not “me” and I know we haven’t seen that particular visual play out in the show either. Please take a look and let me know what you think as I have not seen anyone talk about this at all.
Arya Serious,
Great catch! I missed it despite of 6 or seven re-watchings. And there was also that weird shot of the sun rising in the west and setting in the east. It must be a clue to some major twist, IMO, not only the Wall going down, which looks pretty much inevitable from the viewers’ POV.
And it’s very interesting that Bran says “He saw US”, not “ME”. After I learned that there’s going to be filming in Iceland, I have already thinking that Bran will somehow take Jon (or maybe even other people) into his visions to gain or to reveal some important information (Jon’s true status and/or the origins of the Wall which might reveal its resistance level or the way it can be brough down), and then the Night’s King will grab Bran (or one of his companions) again, which will lead to the fall of the Wall (or maybe someone (Jon or Arya) will have to kill that person (Bran?) before he awakes from the green dream to prevent that. “He saw US” kind of confirms such possibility, though Iceland may be used to film other locations (the Bloody gates of the Vale, for instance) too.
Arya Serious,
Inga,
It looks like what the Nights King is seeing in the shattered ice is an Aurora Borealis. I’m almost certain of it.
Also, the sun rising on the west and setting on the east, that’s what MMD said to Dany.
I’ve believe for some time that Dany will have a baby beyond the Wall. What if she’s mean to bring life in the land of death. Or something like that.
Total crackpot:
MMD never said that Dany will reunite with Khal Drogo, she says that he’ll return to her, it can be a near death experience but she chooses to turn her back when she hears her newborn baby cry. Just like she turn her back on khal Drogo and Rhaego in the HOTU when she heard her dragons cry.
Inga,
moiaf,
With the sky it actively from way back when Sam survives the fist of the first men attack even though the creature looks directly AT HIM!!! Anyway, here is the link and start watching at 4:04 and you will see it.
http://youtu.be/EyQhvknxc-8
Also, I think that they very deliberately put that scene with Drogo and baby even though they left out other parts of the House of the Undying vision from the books. There is definitely something to it in my mind anyway lol! Otherwise why even put it in there? I think that she will either set one more fire (to love) and this time when she burns she will kill all the WW and will get to join Drogo and her baby in the Night Lands (uhh…in their tent but in the middle of the frozen north?? I don’t know lol!!)
With the borealis type reflection when I first saw it the shapes in the ice reminded me of the shapes of the beams supporting the tunnels through the wall like the ones at castle black tunnel and also when Bran and co. went through the tunnel at the Night Fort!
Here is a crackpot for ya!… We see Bran learn how the wall was made and other imperative info on the coming winter and he sees something that makes him need to go to the Night Fort because it was the ORIGINAL NW castle and there are some secrets or something extremely important hidden there. So Bran and Meera go there and set up shop (unpopular idea I know but that’s WHY I like it because it isn’t obvious or anywhere near what we want him to do). The NK uses his Bran-dar and finds him and then we get that scene.
What if Sam’s horn comes into play and when it’s sounded the wall doesn’t crumble into a bunch of rubble but bursts into flame killing all living and dead within range? I am really full of unexplained tidbits and clips today but this plays into my theory on that. When Jojen and Bran are in Craster’s as prisoners Jojen tells Bran and Meera when asked that they will know when it’s the end and he is staring at his hand and it is on FIRE!!! I’ve brought it up on reddit and so did someone else but we were blown off like eh! Take a look and tell me what you think…it is between 1:55-2:25 in this video.
http://youtu.be/tgebaimC1mo
Or, with the horn what if it is blown and the wall goes up like Blood Raven did looking like ashes blowing in the wind! The wall blows in the wind like leaves!!!
It makes sense to me that Edd would be in fewer scenes in season seven; we saw as much of him as we did previously because of how closely bound he was with Jon’s story. We haven’t seen him since Jon left Castle Black, and I doubt we will check in with him much in season seven as Jon has left the Night’s Watch (though not their purpose) behind him. In fact, I think we will probably only get a scene or two with Bran when he comes south of the Wall, and the breach of the Wall by the Night King.
I’m pretty sure that is Cersei’s voice- when she told Jaime “he saw us” from the first episode, just before Bran is pushed out the window.
MeeraReed,
Meera Reed…Yaaaasssssss! You are 100% right I went back and watched that clip and she said it twice and it was the second time she said it. Hats off to you!!
The time for sending ravens has passed. It makes sense Jon would decide to travel south personally. He has two duties: 1) warn the south 2) petition them for help.
This is after, perhaps, he bolsters the defenses at the wall. Maybe he deploys men to the unmanned castles?
He’s responsible, so he’ll always do the reasonable thing. When he sets out south, though, he’ll think he’s meeting with Cersai. That seems like a suicide mission, but I’ve only seen Jon back down from danger once – after his death. Furthermore, these are extreme circumstances! During his journey, KL might fall to Dany…which should be a great relief to him.
I haven’t stuck my head in here for days….great to see these new spoilers!
and die giving birth.
Rygritte,
Do you think it will be a real living baby or that she will have a Melissandre style magic baby? And who’s the daddy? Or would it be like a gift from the gods immaculate conception? Speaking of Melissandre what do you think her take on Dany will be?!!
Arya Serious,
I think she’ll have a normal child at the very end of the series to let the reader/viewer know that the lineage and the legend will live on.
Speaking of Mel and the rest of the red priests, wouldn’t you think there would be some kind of communication, an annual religious migration… something to connect them and guide them? During Tyrion’s visit with Kinvara we get the feeling they’re all rather tight in Essos, so why are they so out of the loop in Westeros? Melisandre always appears so alone and uncertain when there’s apparently so much strength between them in Essos. Psst, it’s a short boat ride…
We know one organ works.
yup
Gilly might have a lot of experience in that department.
Ice cannot accumulate on a dragon. They got lava blood.
Arya Serious,
The baby will be the song of ice and fire 2.0
Mel will claim she is TPTWP.
Rygritte,
Ahahahahahahaha! That was good!! Davos will cut her off mid-sentence and say “Don’t say it…don’t fookin’ say it”!
MeeraReed,
Yes, you are right: thank you for correcting me.
Clob,
One way or another the red priests must show up in Dany’s story-line too. I expect her stopping at Volantis and meeting with Kinvara in 701. And I won’t be surprised, if Mellisandre makes her appearance there too: after all she could have boarder a chip at the White Harbor and seeking an advise from the chief priest of her order looks like a reasonable next step after being banished by her newly discovered PTWP.