The Three-Eyed Raven sends its last visions of the Sight

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The Three-Eyed Raven is once again sending out visions of season 5 and according to the messages and the Raven’s website, this batch will be the last until the Game of Thrones season 5 premiere on April 12th.

So far viewers have reported two different visions going around, as usual.  This time, however, the visions each consist of one short clip from season 5, rather than a scattered montage of old footage as the previous Sight messages have been.

Descriptions of the clips are tucked below a cut as they could be considered spoilers.

UPDATE: Videos of both Visions have been added to the post.

WotW reader Cersei’s Wine Goblet provides this description:

The video was Brienne and Pod, and she told him (paraphrasing) “I don’t want anyone following me much less be a leader. All I ever wanted was to fight for a lord I believed in. The good lord is dead, and the rest are monsters.”

The message concluded on a frame of Pod and Brienne with the words “The Raven has brought its last vision. The future begins on April 12.

WotW reader Mike has shared these screencaps:
IMG_9050

IMG_9051

Over at Westeros.org, commenter Kelsey094 says:

Apparently the sight thing is still going on. Got another one.
Only this time it’s a full scene with Jon and Mance talking, a piece of a full scene instead of some random images. It’s so much better than the other sights.
Jon was saying to Mance that he didn’t do it all for glory or fame, but for his people and that his pride shouldn’t be more important, to which Mance awnsered: ‘Pride? Fuck my pride.’

And here’s the Jon and Mance clip.

If you receive a different vision than one of these, let us know in comments!

Since these are the last visions, can we expect another trailer sometime soon?

278 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. It would be awesome if there is one different sight for all the main characters. But they always had only 2 different visions, so maybe not.

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    2. Turncloak:
      If the leaked script is accurate,

      1. Where can i find this leaked script (is that the one covering just episode 1)?

      2. I think Brianne is a “dead woman walking”. With no LS she has no puspose really, Arya gets away from her and Sansa will refuse her …. bye bye Brianne i do hope DD give her a “good” death tough.

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    3. Ya sounds like its about Jon asking Mance to kneel.

      It will be a shame if the shoe just burns Mance off just like that. Of course, Mance was burned in the book also…. It just wasn’t Mance. But I am skeptical the show will introduce glamoring

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    4. asdf,

      I was so sure the glamouring wasn’t going to happen, so I assumed Melisandre wouldn’t even try and burn Mance Rayder. But we’ve seen pretty clear evidence that Mance is getting burnt. So… either they ARE introducing glamouring, or Mance dies for real in the show. Rattleshirt seems to be at Hardhome, according to the trailer. I’m just not sure how that particular part of the story will go.

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    5. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      The leaked script is the one that covers the first episode and some stuff from later ones as well. Though I can’t agree about Brienne, just because D&D did away with LS it doesn’t mean that Brienne’s arc will be just cut short, she’s received way too much screentime to just die now without impact.

        Quote  Reply

    6. Luka Nieto,

      Yeah, I agree that if they didn’t want to use Mance, they would have killed him off last season. I can’t see them repeating the book scene but have him actually burn, that seems weird. I didn’t think they’d do the glamouring but maybe it’s the case. Not sure what his deal will be this season.

      I almost wonder if the set up his burning and at the last minute he (or someone else like Stannis) calls it off and he ends up accompanying Stannis on his march with the Wildlings. Or maybe they really burn him, who knows?

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    7. QuestioningHodor:
      Hoyti Von Totiy,

      The leaked script is the one that covers the first episode and some stuff from later ones as well. Though I can’t agree about Brienne, just because D&D did away with LS it doesn’t mean that Brienne’s arc will be just cut short, she’s received way too much screentime to just die now without impact.

      Im not saying it wont have impact (hell it might be Sansa who has her killed…) but i think she has no storyline anymore with no LS and with Jamie in Dorne… :-/

        Quote  Reply

    8. King Tommen,

      That’d be great. Could be a great redeeming moment for show-Stannis, in terms of the hold that Mel has over him, which seems to be much greater in the show (also, his atheism was passed over to Davos in the show.)

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    9. King Tommen,

      the trailer made a point to show us Rattleshirt (the lord of bones) so I think we will see the

      glamour in use. I too find the decision curious. It seems like something they could have cut for time, etc. Maybe glamours become more important in the future of the series

        Quote  Reply

    10. Turncloak:
      King Tommen,

      the trailer made a point to show us Rattleshirt (the lord of bones) so I think we will see the

      The Rattleshirt appearance threw me as well but there’s nothing saying that there still isn’t a glamour and Rattleshirt is there because we need a recognizable Wildling to go with Jon to Hardhome (although that raises the question of what the hell Tormund is doing). In the scenario I threw out there, they could stage Mance’s burning but not go through with it which leads to Mance going with Stannis on his march.

      And then again, the glamour could totally be in which means Mance is with Jon (disguised as Rattleshirt) when they go to Hardhome.

      I’m not totally discounting that Rattleshirt is simply there because he’s leading the group of Wildlings held up at Hardhome which would mean he’s definitely not Mance.

      In other words, I have no freaking idea.

        Quote  Reply

    11. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      Was LSH confirmed to not be on the show? Forgive me but I am really behind on all of this. The only news I heard about her was from a director who stated that they never planned to have her in season 4. I also know about Michelle Fairley saying that the character is “dead dead” but that’s about it.

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    12. Got my vision via Twitter but when I pressed play, instead of the video playing I got a text saying that the vision has come and gone and that this is the last vision untill April 12th. Thanks for reminding me again why I absolutely hated this campaign!

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    13. mau: New theory is coming !!!

      and podrick will be wyman manderly!

      Hmm. They already established them meeting Hot Pie last season, so they’ll have someone to make the pies. Get hype.

      CerseisWineGoblet,

      I just use gravatar, and it goes automatically.

        Quote  Reply

    14. don dark star,

      Even though she doesn’t have the same confrontations as she does in AFFC, having her get rejected by both Stark girls on the show puts her through the wringer emotionally even more than the books.

        Quote  Reply

    15. King Tommen,

      Yeah, I agree. I wonder where her story is going. AFFC’s relevant story points have already been dealt with, except for her last chapter. The specific plot is almost unrecognizable, but the story remains the same, and it’s almost over. The crucial revelations, setbacks and support she receives have already been covered. In the books, she meets Podrick and he becomes her squire; she learns that Lysa Arryn is dead; she learns that a daughter of Lord Stark has been seen with the Hound; later she learns Arya Stark is the one who was last seen with the Hound, not Sansa, and that the Hound is now supposedly dead. Then she has a fight with someone she’d believed to be the Hound (though in the books, it isn’t.) Though in a different way and in a different order of events, all of that has been present in the show. As I said, only her last chapter is left.

      So… I really have no idea.

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    16. mau: New theory is coming !!!

      and podrick will be wyman manderly!

      Everyone will be someone else!

      ” WE ARE NOT WHO WE ARE!” dum dum dum

        Quote  Reply

    17. Luka Nieto:
      King Tommen,

      Yeah, I agree. I wonder where her story is going. AFFC’s relevant story points have already been dealt with, except for her last chapter. The specific plot is almost unrecognizable, but the story remains the same, and it’s almost over. The crucial revelations, setbacks and support she receives have already been covered. In the books, she meets Podrick and he becomes her squire; she learns that Lysa Arryn is dead; she learns that a daughter of Lord Stark has been seen with the Hound; later she learns Arya Stark is the one who was last seen with the Hound, not Sansa, and that the Hound is now supposedly dead. Then she has a fight with someone she’d believed to be the Hound (though in the books, it isn’t.) Though in a different way and in a different order of events, all of that has been present in the show. As I said, only her last chapter is left.

      So… I really have no idea.

      Her last chapter was partially adapted too. When Arya and the Hound judged her based on the evidences pointing her to be “guilty”, and we may see this again with her meeting with Sansa.

        Quote  Reply

    18. Luka Nieto,

      There is absolutely no indication that they’re in but I cannot think of any other step for Brienne other than her encountering the BwB (in whatever form they’re in). She can’t go back to King’s Landing, Jaime’s in Dorne, there’s no reason for her to go North and there is no one in the show’s version of the Riverlands that makes sense either.

      She’s homeless and directionless and mission-less, the BwB seem to be her destination. Maybe will get some further hints in the next trailer.

        Quote  Reply

    19. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      Brienne’s story is intertwined with Jaime’s.

      You don’t really believe Jaime will stay in Dorne for the rest of the series, do you?

      Too much has been set up, and it would be a waste of a character to just kill off Brienne before she reunites with Jaime. Also, the next POV character D&D kill off that is alive in the books will be the first. Not saying that won’t happen, it most assuredly will, especially if TWOW isn’t released before season 6, though even GRRM doesn’t kill off POV characters that often. Ned,Catelyn,Arys, and Quentyn are the only POV characters to die, if I recall.

        Quote  Reply

    20. King Tommen,

      Brienne and Pod definitely end up in the Riverlands, if the trailer isn’t misleading us somehow. I’d love the Blackfish and/or the Brotherhood without Banners to come back. Can’t say I’m sure at all it’s happening, but I’d definitely love it to happen.

      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Jaime will still be in Dorne by episode 9. But I agree, they must reunite eventually. They won’t kill either of them before that.

        Quote  Reply

    21. Luka Nieto:
      King Tommen,

      Brienne and Pod definitely end up in the Riverlands, if the trailer isn’t misleading us somehow. I’d love the Blackfish and/or the Brotherhood without Banners to come back. Can’t say I’m sure at all it’s happening, but I’d definitely love it to happen.

      I would love that to happen as well. If the BWB returns, it is likely that they will come back in her storyline. There are a few other options for the Blackfish but I could see him joining up with Thoros and company. Eventually, Brienne and Jaime have to cross paths.

        Quote  Reply

    22. mariamb: Eventually, Brienne and Jaime have to cross paths.

      I dont see why they have to? No LS, no BwB, no Riverlands poltline, no Jamie and only 2 seasons left after this …. its over.

      The last time Jamie and Brianne saw each other was reminiscent of Eddard – Catlyns goodbye at KL.

      She´s a goner 100%

        Quote  Reply

    23. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      That’s a very confusing and confused line of thought. Not everything is plot! If anything, plot is secondary to story and characters.

      They will meet again for the same reason GRRM made them meet again in the books, and it has nothing to do with the particular mechanics of the plot. Those particular events you describe were designed (among other things) so that they would meet again, not the other way around. Plots can and do change in adaptation, while telling the same overall story with the same characters.

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    24. Luka Nieto:
      Hoyti Von Totiy,

      That’s a very confusing and confused line of thought. Not everything is plot! If anything, plot is secondary to story and characters.

      Briannes story in AFFC was filler face it. It lead nowhere …. well it did lead to LS but since that character has been cut from the TV show it means its also desposable material. Someone else is going to deal with the Freys ….

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    25. I got the Brienne vision, which is a shame because I just watched the youtube link someone’d posted here. Hope someone posts the Mance sometime soon.

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    26. As usual, I didn’t even get to see whatever the heck they were supposed to send me.
      A video window + “make sure the audio is connected” > a blank dark screen for a long time > “Raven cannot bring you the vision at this moment” > “Your vision has come and gone”.

      So far, it’s worked only once. I wasn’t sure if I was even going to bother, but it doesn’t cost me anything to try.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Luka Nieto:
      Hoyti Von Totiy,
      I agree it was filler (except the end.) I don’t see how that means Brienne and Jaime won’t meet again or that Brienne will be offed.

      Well GRRM himself said there will be alot of deaths in s5 of characters that are alive in the books…

      Im guessing …
      Brianne, Bronn, Barristan, Grey Worm, Mance, …

        Quote  Reply

    28. This entire “Visions from the Three-eyed raven” promotion has been insultingly terrible.

      They’re nothing more than clips of MOSTLY Season 4 material, put together in dreamsequence, with MAYBE ONE still-shot of a Season 5 location hidden within them.

      What, they think they’re being artistic by presenting them as “ooh, look, they’re out of focus and hyper-fast to look like a confusing dream” — dumbass, we have LABS for this kind of thing! We pick them apart for REAL screenshots, and you’re not giving us any!

      Not to mention the debacle surrounding how the promotion didn’t even work the first time they tried doing it!

      Give us *actual trailers*! Why settle for incompetence?

        Quote  Reply

    29. The Dragon Demands,

      I agree that this ‘The Sight’ promotion was terrible, but obviously they have changed their tune. These new ones are essentially uncut Season 5 clips, which is pretty much what you are asking for. So I’m a bit confused. Did you even read the article? Or watched the clips?

        Quote  Reply

    30. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      Barristan could be one because he hasn’t really been developed in the series, but Brienne has gotten a lot of screentime and her story isn’t in a place to end yet.

      I don’t understand why people are so eager to say that Brienne’s or Sansa’s stories don’t matter by saying they’ll die or take a part of some minor character instead of continuing with their own story.

        Quote  Reply

    31. Luka Nieto,

      Plot and Characters are intertwined. The “art” of adaptation is that you can simplify “Plot” mechanics while still keeping the “Character” actions generally true to the source.

      The entire criticism being made is that certain “Plot” changes might cross the line into being “out of Character” to not only the source material, but established Characterization from past seasons.

      Condensing or simplifying the “Plot” in and of itself, is not necessarily bad. Those trying to defend sweeping changes to *Characterization* are trying to deflect the criticism by waving it aside as merely book fans upset that even small Plot details were changed. It’s not.

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    32. Luka Nieto,

      All previous ones didn’t include video. This one apparently does, but as of this posting WOTW hasn’t gotten the clips yet.

      If they’re starting to improve let’s hope this is a trend.

        Quote  Reply

    33. QuestioningHodor:
      Hoyti Von Totiy,
      I don’t understand why people are so eager to say that Brienne’s or Sansa’s stories don’t matter

      Brianne is not a cotender for the throne

      She is not going to join NW and fight the nevercoming ice zombies

      She was a big part of the TV show so far because of her interaction with Jamie, but
      instead of sending her to Dorne with him D&D have sent Bronn

      She has no interaction to any of the major “players” except Sansa who turns her away early in the season.

      The Tv show has passed the half-way point and its time to start wrapping things up.

      conclusion:
      Rip Brainne

        Quote  Reply

    34. Luka Nieto,
      They always re-arrange the scenes in episodes. They shot the scene for ep 9 but we cannot say for certain that Jaime stays in Dorne in episode 9 well until we see the ep

        Quote  Reply

    35. The Dragon Demands,

      There may be no videos available, but you can read the descriptions. These are not like those vague and fast clips, mostly from Season 4. These are clearly Season 5 clips with a filter on them.

      The Dragon Demands,

      That’s not what we were arguing about. That’s another discussion. Hoyti says that because certain elements are apparently cut (the characters in Brienne’s last chapter), they’ll kill off Brienne before she even reunites with Jaime. My point was that their respective stories and their story together is more important than those specific plot elements, and they don’t depend on them to survive.

        Quote  Reply

    36. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      Why does there have to be a love story between Jaime and Brienne? They’re both very similiar in being denied what they wanted to be and in some ways the opposites (Jaime starting to understand he doesn’t have to act the kingslayer part and Brienne starting to get disillusioned) and they needed each other to realize that. For good or bad, Jaime’s and Brienne’s stories are very closely linked and there’s no need of any romance between them, just growing as people. That’s still ongoing, so getting rid of one would cut the character development and make the screentime and attention they’ve gotten a bit pointless as there are other characters to devote the screentime to instead.

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    37. Here’s a potential scenario…..

      LF heads to KL, on business. He’s an idiot if he leaves Sansa to head to Winterfell on her own, to please a section of gossip-followers. LF is no idiot. He leaves Sansa where he knows she can work for his cause, in The Vale. It’s to his benefit in the wider vision of his planning.

      Brienne is fed up, disillusioned. She’s been unable to keep an oath. Arya was an arms length away, and she couldn’t reach out. She had a Hound to tame, and did, during which time Arya got away. Where does she go next? Back to look for Sansa? She is at a complete loss. No Arya. No Sansa. Oath goes up in smoke, as far as she sees things.
      Pod has to listen to Brienne pouring her soul out. (As he does.)

      Insert the scene from Raven-vision.

      Brienne simply does not know what to do next? It’s an utterly futile quest she’s on.

      How would it look when Pod spots someone very like Sansa? He’s been closer to her than Brienne to know Sansa on sight. He will have a double-take.

      Switch to Sansa. (Ignore the bath scene, because it’s too distracting.) She’s wondering about various things. Perhaps even saddened if Sweetrobin has ‘fallen thru a moon door’, not that everyone’s about faced and returned to The Eyrie. Wondering what plans LF has for Alayne and also for Sansa. Could she love him, as he hopes?

      Izzy-wizzy, let’s get bizzy. Harem scarem. Hocus pocus. Fe-fi-fo-fum…… (Passage of time for thought…..)

      Brienne pays a call on Sansa. “My lady. I served your mother…. and failed. I saw Arya…. yes, she’s alive and well. I….. I…..”
      Sansa just says “Arya?” (sounding like she’s not really believing what she’s just heard).
      “She’s good at what she does.”
      “Podrick? What….?”
      “My lady. My sword…. Podrick? Where’s the f***ing sword?”
      “Sword!”

      Brienne finds a cause, a new purpose. Sansa has her own list, to mirror Arya’s (although, obviously oblivious of Arya’s list).
      Pod’s happy because he always liked Lady Sansa. (Change to very happy if he caught sight of her in the bath.)
      Sansa? She can begin seeking revenge…. through her ‘sword’, Brienne.
      Alayne? She can keep winning hearts, and not doing harm to her own cause… and LF’s.

      Basically, it’s a LSH re-make, re-model.
      Perhaps the “Sansa goes to Winterfell to be raped by Ramsey” is too set in stone for some, and only based on one very, very short snippet of video from a trailer.

      Personally, I’d like to see how much of Dark Phoenix there is in Dark Sansa. Or do we have to see her evolve through Marvel Girl first?

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    38. QuestioningHodor:
      Hoyti Von Totiy,

      Why does there have to be a love story between Jaime and Brienne? They’re both very similiar in being denied what they wanted to be and in some ways the opposites (Jaime starting to understand he doesn’t have to act the kingslayer part and Brienne starting to get disillusioned) and they needed each other to realize that. For good or bad, Jaime’s and Brienne’s stories are very closely linked and there’s no need of any romance between them, just growing as people. That’s still ongoing, so getting rid of one would cut the character development and make the screentime and attention they’ve gotten a bit pointless as there are other characters to devote the screentime to instead.

      Not really … Jamie is Kingsguard, father of Tommen and Mrycella, Tyrion and Cerseis brother … he is interlinked in the story throughout.

      Briannes only “connection” is Jamie now with Catlyn out of the picture and Jamie is in Dorne instead of Riverlands.

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    39. That big bitch killed my hound, she must pay…so let it be written so let it be done…write her out. Nothing personal its business
      #TheHound
      #woof

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    40. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      Brienne still has purpose, her love and oath to Jaime to protect the Stark girls. If she is chased out of the Vale, she will come back with reinforcements. Therefore she will race back to KL (she believes Jaime is there) to inform him she found Sansa but needs his assistance. This would be the best way to get Jaime North, all the main arcs must converge and Jaime’s is a main arc in the show.

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    41. Wimsey,

      First, I love that Jon/Mance scene, it is well written and acted.

      Now, I believe we might finally watch Barristan’s supreme fighting capability, Jaime after all says he is the best warrior (swordsman) alive.

      My pet theory concerning the reason he is not present at the pit even though we now know he is with Dany earlier that day, is that the Harpy’s use guile to remove her protectors prior to their insurrection. Think how Mark Anthony was distracted and pulled from Caesar’s side before entering the Senate.
      Then Barristan, probably told that someone has important intel and goes to meet them, finds himself alone and surrounded by 6,7, 10 Harpies and “Cuts through them like cutting Cake”. Barristan’s exact words to five members of the Kingsguard.

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    42. Maybe Dany sends Barristan to help prepare for the impending Yunkai invasion (which we know is happening, thanks to the leaked script). That could explain why he’s not at the Pit.

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    43. Oohh, thank you to all who posted these clips/descriptions. I still didn’t get my vision but even if I do I probably won’t be able to see it anyway as it happened with the previous ones. A most unfortunate marketing campaign, I must say!

      Mance & Jon! I can’t wait.

      tyjon,

      I think I love your Barristan pet theory!

      I could even see Grey Worm going with him as he doesn’t seem to be in the scene where Dany and gang is surrounded by the Harpy’s Sons in the pit.

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    44. asdf,

      Glamoring might serve as an answer as to

      just what Melisandre is.

      I won’t count it out completely yet.

      I think Brienne will live. They just need to plug another character into LS’s place, which won’t be hard because everyone everywhere hates the Lannisters and Freys. I think her storyline in s05 will actually deal with the same question fans have been asking ever since LS got debunked: what’s a sword with no master good for? Unless their shared storyline becomes yet another late-series non-event, they’ll find another way for her to run into

      Jaime.

      Otherwise, fuck it.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      He didn’t say there’d be a lot of deaths for characters that are alive in the books. He simply said “characters will die that aren’t dead in the books”. This could be 2 characters and it could mean minor characters not major ones. People love to take George out of context. Also, people keep saying LS isn’t in it, and they are clearly once again taking Alex Graves out of context. He isn’t even involved in season 5, all he said was it wasn’t in the plans to have her (in season 4). He has no creative say in the overall direction of the show or the characters or the writing, he only gets a say in what material he is DIRECTING. Can’t wait for LS to appear to the shock and horror of lots of people

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    46. mau,

      Did he say a season? Walder Frey confirmed it for season 6 I think, though I cannot remember exactly. Maybe that’s just my wishful thinking.

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    47. I would really like to see Jaime and Brienne reunite (and no, not for a love story) and I agree with those who have said that cutting LSH doesn’t mean that can’t happen. While I would say a distraught and floundering Brienne is on the hot list of book-alive/show-dead characters to die in S5, her being such a fan favorite and having unfinished business with Jaime makes me skeptical. I’m sure they could work it for a reunion after Jaime (hopefully?) returns from Dorne. Maybe in S6. I guess it depends on how important their reunion is to the overall story and what comes out of it… But fingers crossed 🙂

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    48. One of the valuable functions of Brienne’s character is she’s a kind of bridge between the key players and small folk in the story. She can slide along the scale. Brienne, Davos and Sam are each ill-fitting characters but they add subtleties to the story. I would hate for any of them to end with still a fair way to go.

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    49. I received the Jon/Mance video. Just a little addition: the final image was Bronn and Jamie climbing up a steep grassy hillside–perhaps a grassy seaside dune.
      We REALLY need a new trailer!!

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    50. I’m warming up to the idea of Sansa

      playing the LSH part initially, sending troops after Brienne, and forcing Brienne to prove her loyalty and seek out Jaimie to save her own life. Then having Brienne take over LSH, and cut down random Freys to avenge the RW, until she runs into Jaimie in the Riverlands in S6.

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    51. I could see the show skipping the

      mountain clans and just having Stannis recruit Wildlings instead. And perhaps even skipping the fake death of Mance.

        Quote  Reply

    52. I think Brienne is still going to get her face bitten off and we might have that scene at Craklaw point or something i forget the name, Sansa could go to stony sept while LF s away.

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    53. Alleged S5E8 spoilers

      Tormund will die this season.

      Rattleshirt is selling slaves at Hardhome. Tormund is pissed and begs Jon to let him go take care of it. Jon thinks as LC he should tag along and does. At Hardhome a fight ensues. During the fight, the Night’s King shows up and starts reanimating the dead, especially those falling over the side of a cliff. Everyone panics and starts to flee, chaos everywhere. They charge at Jon who is left alone. Tormund refuses to flee and pounces on the Wights and throws Jon to the floor, protecting him. He fights off like 20 Wights trying to get at Jon before dying. They are giving Tormund a heroic death on the show, protecting Jon Snow. Before dying he tells Jon Snow to leave, get to the boats. There’s a fire torch near by. In his final act Tormund sets himself and the other Wights nearby on fire, so he can’t be brought back. Final shot of 508 is the eyes of the Night’s King meeting the eyes of Jon Snow.

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    54. If you are posting snippets of information from an alleged leaked script summary, they need to be labeled as such before the spoiler coding. People aren’t expecting to see those things, especially those who are book readers and have spoilers turned off. Have some consideration for your fellow fans, please.

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    55. Sue the Fury,

      Are you talking about the leaked script summaries from July that the trailer proved to be legit or ers’ above comment? As far as I know there was never a leak, real or fake, saying that.

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    56. Yeah im already convinced they are true considering what a white walker extra said about resurrection and cliffs and yes what an epic fuckin scene if it turns out correct.

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    57. Jessie_Snow:
      I’m warming up to the idea of Sansa

      Sansa is supposed to be just Littlefinger’s niece Alayne. And even as Sansa, she would have no authority over the Vale troops, or any troops anywhere, for the time being.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Hoyti Von Totiy: How is their story toghther important?

      If you are talking about a possible love story that was settled when Jamie “took” Cersei in the crypt = no Brianne love story = nothing to “finnish up”

      Oh right, once Jaime and Cersei had sex, that settled it that they were going to be togetha 4eva and Jaime was never going to leave Cersei or be interested in another woman, say Brienne! Just like it happened in the books after the sept sex!

      Oh, wait…

        Quote  Reply

    59. WUN WUN,

      Ep 10 Spoilers maybe

      I heard someone say something in the finale about Jon Snows body being taken by the nights king. That would fit with this crazy story too.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Annara Snow: And even as Sansa, she would have no authority over the Vale troops, or any troops anywhere, for the time being.

      And Daeny had no authority over any Dothraki: until she took it. Sansa will have to do the same thing in the Vale. We already know that the Vale lords are “warm” to her. In the books, we know that

      many of them were chomping at the bit to assail the Lannisters;

      this could be retained and parlayed in Sansa’s favor if she plays her cards correctly.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Possibile scenarios in order of most likely to least likely (in my personal opinion)…
      1. Sansa stays in the Vale
      2. Sansa leaves the Vale but does not go to Winterfell
      3. Sansa goes to Winterfell for reasons that do not include her marrying Ramsay.
      4. Sansa develops wings, lasers for eyes and a taste for human flesh. Hodor manages to talk her out of devouring everyone alive.
      5. The books finish before the show.
      6. Sansa marries Ramsay

        Quote  Reply

    62. Crabber’s Son,

      That particular rumour never made sense because E10 is not the episode all the Hardhome stuff happens. It doesn’t match up with any of the casting or directors. E8 is when it all goes down.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Wimsey: And Daeny had no authority over any Dothraki: until she took it.Sansa will have to do the same thing in the Vale.We already know that the Vale lords are “warm” to her.In the books, we know that

      this could be retained and parlayed in Sansa’s favor if she plays her cards correctly.

      Dany was the khaleesi of the Dothraki. Sansa is not the Lady of the Vale. She also hasn’t got dragons. She can use “soft power” to influence people and play politics, but she doesn’t have authority to send armies anywhere on her own – she could only try to influence others to decide to do so.

        Quote  Reply

    64. Greenjones,

      If nothing else, the information matches up entirely with things that we know to be true so it passes the smell test.

      Doesn’t mean it’s true (someone may be just using the known info to come up with a plausible series of events) but I can in no way refute it.

      Plus it’s awesome so I kind of want it to be true.

        Quote  Reply

    65. So if those hardhome rumors are true and Rattleshirt is selling slaves so does that mean Mance wont be glamoured and most likely die?

        Quote  Reply

    66. WUN WUN:
      So if those hardhome rumors are true and Rattleshirt is selling slaves so does that mean Mance wont be glamoured and most likely die?

      I’ve speculated that perhaps they stage his burning as we’ve seen in the trailer but at the last minute either he or someone else (like Stannis) calls it off and he agrees to take the Wildlings with Stannis on his march to Winterfell as Stannis has demanded of him.

      Or he could be burnt.

        Quote  Reply

    67. I wondered this last season, during her run in with Arya and Sandor, does Brienne really think she can simply “rescue” either Stark girl? She was called out on having a Lannister sword. Not exactly something that would instill confidence in Arya. She swore an oath to Catelyn but is searching on behalf of Jaime. Add to that, her being in KL during the wedding (which kind of screwed her story line). Sansa may never have spoken with her but she had to know she showed up with Jaime in tow. Why would Sansa agree to any type of rescue by what is essentially a Lannister hired sword? We know Briennes’ intent is pure, but Arya didn’t once the flashy red sword belt and lion’s head pommel where pointed out. Sansa may be foolish at times but she isn’t an idiot. We may want a Sansa rescue from the claws of LF but if looking at it from her POV, Brienne would be one of the last people she would trust at this point.
      I think Brienne will end up at the

      Quiet Isle

      to hide out/plan her next move, come end of season.
      Yeah, the fangirl in me is coming out but I totally expect some epic badassness from the wanna-be Knight and the Fuck Your Sers. We all know

      the Gravedigger isn’t swearing any oaths to the Seven

      and who else would know where Arya possibly disappeared to? Remember, Arya told him she has friends there. Something/someone has to bring Arya back from Bravvos eventually. And Sansa, well she isn’t really a damsel but she needs someone she can trust. She has no one but a “dog will die for you, but never lie to you…”
      Yeah…I’m fan-girling hard.

        Quote  Reply

    68. King Tommen:

      Yeah that seems possible, be nice to have those Northern guys Stannis goes and rallies tho…. also I hope they dont kill off Roy Bland itd be such a waste of an actor considering what screentime he had.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Greenjones: Are you talking about the leaked script summaries from July that the trailer proved to be legit or ers’ above comment? As far as I know there was never a leak, real or fake, saying that.

      All of the above. We can’t assume any of these random leaked summaries are legit because most of them are vague or conveniently based on things seen after filming (like Brienne and Pod spotted filming) but for the sake of carefulness, people need to label that stuff. No one is expecting potentially massive season-ruining spoilers under those spoiler bars. So in the interest of consideration, if people are posting that stuff, indicate it. Even book readers like to be surprised, let’s not ruin the season for everyone.

      And us adding spoiler code to something is NOT us verifying that information. We’re just being cautious.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Annara Snow: Dany was the khaleesi of the Dothraki.

      Which plus $5 gets you a cup of coffee: being Khaleesi means little and less to the Dothraki. (Moreover, as Sansa might well end up betrothed to her cousin, she will have an analog.) At any rate, there are more ways than one to skin most cats: and how Sansa ascends will not be identical to how Daeny ascends. The parallel will be in the ascent.

      We do need to keep story in mind, too. Jon will be

      attempting to be Lord Commander

      Daeny will be attempting to be Ruling Queen. Cersei also will be attempting to be Ruling Queen. Jaime (probably) will be

      attempting to be Tywin II

      . Brienne looks like she will be forced into a position of leadership. The only lead characters not doing something like this will be reinventing themselves in other ways. Look for Sansa’s reinvention to be another of attempted leadership.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Sue the Fury,

      Alright, I just thought that you’d seen that post by ers on facebook or something. I think it may have just been spec on his part. Hopefully he drops by again and clarifies what exactly it was.

      The summaries from July are one hundred percent legit btw. They predicted word-for-word lines that ended up in the trailer more than six months later (the “good luck finding him” and “who said anything about him” exchange), as well as the serpent-in-a-box-with-Lannister-necklace-around-it thing. I didn’t believe them at the time but the trailer confirmed them. There is no way someone could guess that well, especially given that those lines and that serpent-necklace thing isn’t in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    72. ers,

      Based on what we know of 508 so far, this actually sounds like an exceedingly plausible scenario. If this is allegedly leaked information, I for one would be very interested to know where you originally found it. But even if it’s only speculation, it’s still intriguing.

      George R.R. Martin’s assertion that several characters who are still alive in the books will die this season has obviously prompted a lot of theorizing as to which characters he could be referring to.* At least among the speculation threads that I’ve been reading, Tormund hasn’t been among the most frequently cited candidates, but he actually fits the profile quite well. And the scenario detailed above would be a pretty badass end for the character.
      *Yes, I’m well aware of George’s tendency to overstate the impact that the death of minor characters will have on the rest of the story (Mago says hi – or he would, if Drogo hadn’t ripped his tongue and his throat out). But given the show’s accelerated timetable, I think that we are going to start to see characters die this season that people will consider to be fairly significant losses, even if they aren’t “core” characters, per se.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Even though season 5 is only a little more then a month away it is this period that the wait seems longest.

      Can we have another trailer plllllease???

        Quote  Reply

    74. ers,

      Wow, that sounds intense, we already knew about

      the Night’s King and the cliff part but the others are very specific and new. I’m probably believing, although I wouldn’t like to see Tormund dying. If that is true, Jon will probably “die” at the hands of the Others. One can only wonder if that is a massive deviation from the books, although I have to admit the possibility of a Jon’s plot with the Others while he is in coma in Winds is not odd to me.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Ironborn,

      No, because he says Jon would be in his boat already when he spots the NK.

      Also ers hasn’t clarified if that was spec. or a claim to having show info. It was a mod’s edit that made it say it was based on “leaked info”.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Greenjones,

      That leak is obviously legit but we’re all agreed that’s not a summary of the entire 1st episode right? I find it highly unlikely they hit on only 4 storylines in the premiere.

      I tend to think that the additional stuff that’s in the next post which includes Arya’s 1st scene, Tyrion/Varys at Illyrio’s, Brienne/Pod running from the Vale guards where they imply an earlier scene with the Sansa/LF encounter, a short scene where Jon is elected LC and Cersei and Jaime getting the Martell viper box is all part of the 1st episode summary.

      That would mean we’d get every character storyline in the premiere except for Winterfell which would be more like previous seasons.

      I know on someone else’s listing of the additional info, they make the assumption that the new stuff is from E2 or E3 but that just seems to come out of the fact that they haven’t seen the original Sansa/Brienne scene so the guess is that it’s from an earlier episode. In reality, that scene could be earlier in E1 and the info was just never included in the summary (you can tell we’re missing some scenes in the summary).

        Quote  Reply

    77. King Tommen,

      Yeah it’s definitely not enough to the complete episode one summary. The information for both of the facebook summaries is partial at best.

      I think WF is more likely to be in the premiere than the Vale though but who the hell knows.

      I DO think the leaker (if they’re the same guy on both summaries) did get some info at least about 502 though. I think the box with the serpent and necklace is 502 material, for instance, because Cersei waking up, the investigation in the Red Keep of what went down through to the funeral sounds like enough KL for 501. I think Dorne will be intro’d in 502 too, so it would make more sense for the scene where Cersei sends Jaime there to be in that ep. too.

      Strange that neither facebook summary mentioned anything about what’s going on with the Boltons and Reek… Also, I really doubt that the premiere will end with Jon promising to negotiate with Mance. That seems like an underwhelming ending compared to the first scene in the HOBAW or something like that.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Greenjones,

      You’ve got Jaqen’s surprise appearance in that HOBAW sequence too so that could be good enough for an episode capper. You could go with Dany’s dragon scene as well.

        Quote  Reply

    79. Greenjones:
      King Tommen,

      Yeah it’s definitely not enough to the complete episode one summary. The information for both of the facebook summaries is partial at best.

      I’d disagree, if you read it all there are gaps with the E1 info. I think what he’s got there is E3. Look at the NW stuff.

        Quote  Reply

    80. ctid,

      If the Stephen Dillane and Liam Cunningham IMDB info is to be believed then the Wall won’t be in 503. It’s a fair guess to say that that material may be spread over 501 and 502 though, yeah.

        Quote  Reply

    81. I must have missed something previously, can someone clarify for me how we “know” about the Night King and Cliffs?? What is this referring to???

      While it sounds very D&D, and Tormund having an epic fighting death the season sounds absolutely plausible, I don’t like the sound of this “leak” at first read. Isn’t this a bit early for a Jon vs Others showdown of this kind of proportion? Back on slavery as evil theme again? How is this going to lead to “for the watch” if Jon is proving his leadership up at Hardhome in battle- just general conflict with Jon supporting the wildlings/trying to fight evil forces rather than listening to the stale NW leadership? It sounds like a crazy awesome battle and would fit with what we know about intensity/duration of the Hardhome shoot, but I’m not sure I like the flavor. And how does Stannis fit in/how does this lead to battle of Winterfell? Can someone clarify for me?

        Quote  Reply

    82. King Tommen,

      There doesn’t need to be a Rattleshirt for Mance to survive the pyre. He could just pop up alive and well, hidden in a cloak, later in the season. That would also be better for the actor, since we wouldn’t have Rattleshirt’s actor playing Mance (it would be Mance himself, without a glamor). And it’s always possible that they’ll use random Wildling #15 or god forbid Tormund. But I do think it’s happening.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Question, are we sure that it’s Mance on the pyre in the trailer? Did anyone see the face clearly? Could it just be burning random bodies after the battle to keep them from coming back, or Melisandre making a sacrifice with someone else?

      I kind of feel the glamour itself is unlikely on the show but Mance in disguise is very possible, they have Ciaran Hinds they should use him to full effect!

        Quote  Reply

    84. jentario,

      I agree it might happen like that, but King Tommen’s idea is just so great that I hope it happens, mostly for the sake of the characterization of Stannis in the show. He’s much more of a skeptic in the books. In the show he’s been entranced by Melisandre since she showed him a Battle in the Snow in the fires, after the Battle of the Blackwater. I’m 99% sure that’s a deliberate choice by the showrunners: since they decided to make Stannis a POV character, they had to give him a personal arc. I hope it involves becoming more of a skeptic of Mel’s intentions and the source of her powers (that she has powers is beyond a doubt, but the other stuff is in question.)

        Quote  Reply

    85. Jaime’s girl,

      The shot of a person burning on a pyre is not the one we are talking about. That seems to be the Night’s Watch honoring someone who died.

      The other Castle Black shot is a sacrifice. The Pyre has a post —the victim will be burnt alive and standing. And Mance can be seen escorted by two soldiers.

      Here, a spoilery picture with all the named characters we know on it:

      http://imageshack.com/a/img673/5959/gkFWIi.png

        Quote  Reply

    86. Jaime’s girl,

      I misplaced Tormund (damn gingers!) He’s behind Davos, not behind Mance. Anyway, here’s a corrected picture, just as spoilery, and with more information, uniting all the shots we have of this scene. The main establishing shot, a closer shot from the trailer, and two of the promotional pictures, all from the same sacrifice scene:

      http://imageshack.com/a/img538/4729/LZvowL.png

      BTW, I’m 100% sure that Brienne says “all the good Lords are dead”, not “The good Lord’s dead.”

        Quote  Reply

    87. I just hope hbo doesn’t pull a “breaking bad s5” on us. Seriously where’s the second trailer?? This is killing me!

        Quote  Reply

    88. ers,

      Wow – that is awesome. In a way, I wish that I hadn’t read it.

      If true, Tormund goes out like a bad ass. I would hate to lose him this soon – I like that character and enjoy Kristofer Hivju in the role. If this is true, I can’t imagine that Mance will die in S5. I like the suggestion that Stannis would step in and stop Mance’s sacrifice.

      Jaime’s girl,

      All good questions. Not sure how “For the Watch” comes into play either.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Jaime’s girl:
      Question, are we sure that it’s Mance on the pyre in the trailer? Did anyone see the face clearly? Could it just be burning random bodies after the battle to keep them from coming back, or Melisandre making a sacrifice with someone else?

      There are 2 separate scenes depicted in the trailer. The first is with the entire NW and Stannis’ crew in the CB courtyard where Melisandre is lighting the pyre, readying it for someone. You can see off to the side that Mance is standing with some NW men flanking him that makes it clear he’s the one it’s all for.

      The second trailer scene is showing someone lying down in a pyre burning, but the identity of the person is obscured. But their arms are folded on their chest and they look to be pretty dead. This mirrors most of the NW burial scenes we’ve seen already. Some have speculated that this could be Aemon or maybe Thorne. But it’s definitely a a different scene than the Mance scene shown before.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Wimsey: Which plus $5 gets you a cup of coffee: being Khaleesi means little and less to the Dothraki.

      Not really. She had her own bloodriders and handmaidens – a few people, but those are the ones who have stayed with her. Her bloodriders were loyal to her when Drogo’s bloodriders turned against her, and fought to save her, even though they were not ready to swear allegiance to her when she asked, because she’s a woman… until she hatched the dragons.

      (Moreover, as Sansa might well end up betrothed to her cousin, she will have an analog.)At any rate, there are more ways than one to skin most cats: and how Sansa ascends will not be identical to how Daeny ascends.The parallel will be in the ascent.

      But she’s not going to be there halfway through season 5, which is what the idea that she’ll be sending armies somewhere is based on. She could convince, influence, manipulate the Vale lords into sending armies somewhere, convincing them that it’s in their best interest, that it’s honorable, that they’d get their revenge for Jon Arryn on the Lannisters, whatever – but she’s not a ruler or a regent or even a part of the ruling house and has no authority to order any armies on her own, and least not yet.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Luka Nieto:
      Jaime’s girl,

      BTW, I’m 100% sure that Brienne says “all the good Lords are dead”, not “The good Lord’s dead.”

      That certainly makes much more sense. Brienne would never refer to Renly as “lord” instead of “king”.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Luka Nieto,

      OR they could use

      good old-fashioned masks. Rattleshirt is wearing one anyway. Who’s to say what the man underneath looks like. If they burn “Mance” with a sack over his head, or some ritualistic mask of the red god, they could do the same thing as in the book, minus the glamour.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Turncloak,

      Graves didn’t say that the Hound or Tormund were in love with Arya and Ygritte. He said they loved them. Which they did. He wasn’t talking about romantic love. Just love. Is that so hard to grasp?

      Also, how are budget limitations in any way his fault? They asked for more money, and HBO did give it to them. How is this in any way wrong or controversial? Why is it in that list? What am I missing?

      Also, he’s a director, not a writer. He doesn’t have to know the detailed background of the characters. There’s no problem with him thinking Tysha is dead, or that for some reason Tyrion knew the Red Keep since he was a child. And anyway, he might not have “grown up” there, but he’s spent many years living in the capital.

      So… what’s the problem? I must ask, because I truly don’t see it.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Balerion The Cat,

      Really? That’d be great!

      Speculation based on episode titles is one of my favorite pass-times between seasons. The titles also clear up the placement of certain events (i.e. “Mockingbird”, “The Lion and the Rose”, “The Mountain and the Viper”, “The Watchers on the Wall”, just to name a few.)

        Quote  Reply

    95. tyjon,

      Yeah, there was some pretty cool concept art of the CotF. The actress also did prosthetic makeup tests, but they opted for a more human look. I watched some of the season 4 bonus material yesterday, and they digitally altered her face in post-production as well for whatever reasons.

      Also guys, we had character posters by now last year, so I would expect something this weekend.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Shitmouth:
      Hoyti Von Totiy,

      No, nothing has been confirmed at all. The fact of the matter remains is that we really have no idea whatsoever whether

      we’ll see LSH this season or not

      , however a lot of the non-sullied and some of the sullied have an

      anti-LSH agenda

      which is rather annoying.

      We do know however that in the first trailer released for Season 5, that Brienne and Pod end up back in the Riverlands, as we see them on horseback riding past an inn or barn. There was also

      a leak some time ago that Brienne and Pod meet an older woman who warns them that they’re in “dangerous territory”. So, Brienne and Pod back in the Riverlands + in “dangerous territory” = the BWB on a killing spree with a new leader?

        Quote  Reply

    97. Luka Nieto,

      Yes, I love all the speculation too, this season will be even more exciting (I’m expecting some interesting episode titles).

      Now, if only we could get an announcement from HBO that the second trailer will air this Sunday. Last year they always announced it on Friday, so if we don’t get anything today there’ll probably be no new trailer this week.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Luka Nieto,

      Thank you Luka and King Tommen, this clarifies everything 🙂
      I was wondering how such conclusions were coming out of that one shot but I was missing the other 🙂 thanks!

      So do you think they go for the glamour? They have Mance escape or be disguised another way? Or they just kill him off?

        Quote  Reply

    99. Jaime’s girl,

      I have no idea.

      I assumed they wouldn’t do the glamour thing so it followed that there would be no sacrifice at all. Now we know there will be a Mance sacrifice scene. So… here are the options: there’s a glamour and the book’s story is followed to a tee; there’s no glamour and Mance is killed; or there’s no glamour but the sacrifice is somehow stopped. I’ve got no idea which way the show will go.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Carne:
      Yeah, there was some pretty cool concept art of the CotF. The actress also did prosthetic makeup tests, but they opted for a more human look. I watched some of the season 4 bonus material yesterday, and they digitally altered her face in post-production as well for whatever reasons.

      I remember watching an audition tape of Octavia last year at this time, which was wonderfully eerie and odd. I thought they were going to really explore the disturbingly eccentric/ageless qualities of the CotF but, alas, I was very disappointed in the final result. So much potential there…it was fairly obvious that it was not a priority for the show (or it was misunderstood).

        Quote  Reply

    101. Luka Nieto,

      I assumed the same, that they would skip the sacrifice entirely. Now your photo shows me it’s definitely happening (or at least beginning)… yeah, no clue. I kind of hope they don’t do it, there is enough weird magic going around…

        Quote  Reply

    102. Carne,

      By this time last year we had 2 trailers and one 15-minute long video with massive footage. This year they really put a brake on the footage they’re willing to show. I don’t know if I like it or not, maybe when season starts I’ll be glad they did this.

      Doran’s Gouty Foot,

      How did he survive?

        Quote  Reply

    103. Gwendoline Christie’s unsubtle hint at a certain scene:
      “Sometimes the producers just dangle hints above your head like a noose”.

        Quote  Reply

    104. mariamb,

      Well…it is a bit fascinating and very worrisome that HH may indeed be escalated to this somewhat thrilling and superficial level. Since Tormund is slated to lead the reconnaissance party to HH, I guess we could consider this a huge TWoW spoiler. If Jon survives (and other NW die during this event) and he gets back to an agitated, disapproving CB/NW, I would fully expect FtW to happen in ep10.

      I know it is “tradition” during pre-season, but I greatly dislike leaks like this. I don’t respect the unethical, dumpster-diving maggot that leaked it/stole it/paid for it, nor the automatic “acceptance” of this shit without proof. I’m glad for the articulated wariness from the WotW folk. I’m sure we’ll get more subversive leaks like this in the coming weeks.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I agree!

      Although if that leak is true I will have goosebumps watching it but I wish I wasn’t spoiled like that.

      I don’t mind reading people’s theorycrafting, and if some of it comes true, good for them that they figured it out.

      However, to just coming out and tell us what is going to happen kinda sucks because now that thrill of seeing it live for the first time is ruined.

      On the flip side, if it was a true leak then this is a good sign we are in store for some amazing scenes.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Agree. As I said, I wish that I had not seen it but I’m a spoiler-junkie.

      If Jon returns to Castle Black without a bunch of the NW, it is likely that “For the Watch” could result in E9 or 10. Wasn’t there another supposed leak about the NK taking an injured Jon with him to the Land of Always Winter? Or has that already been dismissed?

        Quote  Reply

    107. mariamb,

      The only reason people ever believed that was because they mixed up the reddit poster who said that (a poster with only one post to his name called littlebirdieknows) with one who had previously given legitimate scoops (RhaegarShmaegar).

        Quote  Reply

    108. Arthur,

      Hey, snowman from Conn! I doubt anything will ruin GoT for me as I wait for more canon, especially since I sort of enjoy rewatches/rereads better! I just dislike the proud traitors that are out there.

      mariamb,

      I am intrigued, and I can even see that happening in TWoW, but I honestly have no idea. Crazy, gut-wrenching season it will be!

        Quote  Reply

    109. Balerion The Cat,

      If it doesn’t get published, it’s probably held in moderation. Usually that happens when you’re posting a link, it may get caught in the spam filter. Be patient and don’t keep reposting when that happens.

        Quote  Reply

    110. tyjon,

      A hang over from the previous thread, but if it’s still bugging you, you might be thinking of the singer from Adam and the Ants (Adam Ant in fact) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_the_Wild_Frontier

      EDIT better examples:
      https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=adam+ant&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=YbTwVKn5C8itafjmgcAC&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1212&bih=706

      Starts singing “staaaaand and deliver…..S5 of GoT NOW please!” Duran Duran did briefly wear those jackets too. You got early 80s UK pop queries, I’m your girl :O)

        Quote  Reply

    111. Sue the Fury,

      Sorry, it was just that when it gets caught in the spam filters I can usually still see it with a, “awaiting moderation” title, so I thought that maybe the site had a hiccup or something and I wanted to see if I try again it gets posted, and it did. 🙂 (I did wait a few minutes before posting again though)

      Greenjones,

      No problem, off question, but how do you embed youtube videos in comments?

        Quote  Reply

    112. Luka Nieto,

      Oooh I like this idea. The one true King indeed, time for Stannis to take the reins.

      mariamb,

      I’m hoping you’re right and “for the watch” will be in episode 10, would be an amazing closer, even if Jon’s storyline has already kind of skipped around with Hardhome.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Greenjones,

      Except for the show!Thenn sympathy implied in the speech, the Jon and Mance verbal sparring scenes are some of the great moments of GoT! What word does Jon say after “Thenns and …” though?

        Quote  Reply

    114. Why is everyone hating on Alex Graves in that Reddit thread? Who cares what he says in the commentary, 5 out of 6 of his episodes have been fantastic (and even the odd one out – Breaker of chains – isn’t bad at all, I just don’t count it on the same level as his other 5 episodes which all feature in my top 10 GoT episodes).

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    115. Turncloak,

      Just a reminder that this guy directed ‘Kissed By Fire’,’And Now His Watch Is Ended’, and ‘The Lion And The Rose’. All three are near the top of my best episodes list. ‘The Children’ is also much better than people give it credit for. Obviously, the sept scene in ‘Breaker Of Chains’ soured people’s opinion of him, and the COTF and Bloodraven were very underwhelming, but that is not his fault. Neither was excluding Tysha. He was overworked having 4 episodes last season, and I think it showed in a few of his scenes. I hope he gets another shot at doing 2 episodes in a season.

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    116. Archmaester,

      I don’t understand it either. “Kissed By Fire” is one of the greatest GoT episodes, imho. In S4, he was obviously overworked and perhaps misinterpreted some canon events/characters, but I’m thankful for his contributions to the cause.

      Greenjones,

      Thanks!

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    117. Archmaester,

      I kind of agree with you and others, I mean it’s not ideal that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about ASOIAF-wise but his episodes have been good in my eyes. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Gwendoline Christie both had great things to say about how he handled the difficult bathtub scene in season 3. I don’t really care if he’s clueless as long as he produces well-directed material.

      It’s a waste of hate, we should be saving for “Where is Hodor/Why is Jaime in Dorne/Where are my Frey pies/#NOONEUNDERSTAAANDS” moments 😉

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    118. RIP! ;( Leonard (Spock) Nimoy. To bad the past Kings of Westeros nor the future Queen, never had or will have the opportunity to have your counsel as an adviser. The Seven Kingdoms would be a better place.

      It’s like losing an extended family member.

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    119. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Yep, and even when overworked in Season 4 three of the episodes are great. I’ve just reached The Mountain and The Viper on my rewatch and there are so many great moments. I hope he returns for S6 too – my dreamteam would be Alex Graves x 2, Neil Marshall x 1 (assuming there’s a major battle to give him…), Alik Sakharov x 2, David Nutter x 2, and possibly Michelle MaClaren or a return for some of the new directors from Season 5 if they do well.

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    120. tyjon,

      A day of mourning, indeed. 🙁

      Archmaester,

      A dream team indeed! NM for the 2-episode Battle of Meereen! 🙂

      Start S6 off with trebuchets, corpse-flinging, R&V going nuts and Selmy yelling “Sound the attack!”

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    121. Archmaester,

      01 : Timothy Van Patten
      02 : Timothy Van Patten
      03 : Alik Sakharov
      04 : Alik Sakharov
      05 : Michelle MacLaren
      06 : David Nutter
      07 : David Nutter
      08 : Alan Taylor
      09 : Neil Marshall
      10 : Alan Taylor

      That’s the real GoT dream team so far, even though I think that Slovis (Breaking Bad), Mylod (Shameless US) and Podeswa (Boardwalk Empire) will be terrific directors. I’m not so sure about Sapochnik, I don’t know his work.

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    122. KG:

      So … Leonard Nimoy :/

      tyjon:

      It’s like losing an extended family member.

      Leonard Nimoy was one of those icons you’d think would always be around and live forever.

      God, my childhood and teen years are disappearing fast.

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    123. Ozymandias,

      Forgot about TVP and Alan Taylor! I somehow doubt they’ll be coming back at this stage though, unfortunately.

      I do like Michael Slovis’ work on Breaking Bad and Jeremy Pedeswa’s on Boardwalk Empire, so I have high hopes for their episodes this season. I haven’t seen the US Shameless but I loved the UK version (untill the last couple of seasons at least).

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    124. Alex Graves is an extremely accomplished television director. He’s also directed some of the best episodes of GoT. People crapping over him or calling him a hack don’t have much of a clue.

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    125. King Tommen,

      Exactly. And sneering at him for being unfamiliar with the lore down to a tee is just silly. If you listen to any of the commentaries most of the directors say names wrong and seem to be unfamiliar with much of the history, locations etc. That’s why there’s writers, producers and script supervisors though! Directors don’t go in alone. They have a lot of shit to take care of, whilst others tend to other aspects of the production.

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    126. Ozymandias:
      Archmaester,

      01 : Timothy Van Patten
      02 : Timothy Van Patten
      03 : Alik Sakharov
      04 : Alik Sakharov
      05 : Michelle MacLaren
      06 : David Nutter
      07 : David Nutter
      08 : Alan Taylor
      09 : Neil Marshall
      10 : Alan Taylor

      That’s the real GoT dream team so far, even though I think that Slovis (Breaking Bad), Mylod (Shameless US) and Podeswa (Boardwalk Empire) will be terrific directors. I’m not so sure about Sapochnik, I don’t know his work.

      I have high hopes for Sapochnik, particularly because he’s doing Hardhome. Based on his previous action work (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd_UNW8uw1A) (NSFW) I think that part at least will be good.

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    127. King Tommen:
      Alex Graves is an extremely accomplished television director. He’s also directed some of the best episodes of GoT. People crapping over him or calling him a hack don’t have much of a clue.

      Book purists hate him because he told the truth. LSH is lame and stupid plot twist and it would be humiliating for Michelle Fairley to play that pointless and nonsensical “character”.

      And every time book purist hate something in the show it means it was great television. They do not understand how television works and have no shred of reason nor objectivity .

      Fuck them .

      They unjustifiably criticized hardworking and talented people who made this show , while they worshiped fat lazy ass. And he betrayed them. Poetic justice.

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    128. Alex Graves has directed so many of the best scenes on the show, with so many superb visual flourishes.

      -“Dracarys” for Pete’s sake
      -The way the camera goes back through the wooden X to reveal Ramsay for who he actually is
      -Jaime and Brienne’s bath
      -Hound Vs Beric
      -“Lannister Family Christmas” in 3×05, as coined by Cogman
      -Joffrey and Margaery’s wedding, which was almost its own episode
      -My personal favorite: The windswept meeting of the Boltons on the battlefield.
      -The camera motion along Aemon and the Wall as he delivers the eulogy in the Castle Black courtyard
      -Brienne and the Hound

      Graves is probably the show’s best director, and just because the Sept of Baelor scene was botched (and it was botched) is not near enough for that title to be forfeited to Nutter or MacLaren or Marshall.

      Eager to see what the four new directors bring to the table in Season 5, and hope Graves enjoys his break and comes back swinging in Season 6.

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    129. Andrew,

      As others have said, he has directed some of my favorite episodes. Yes, the sept scene was poorly executed and the commentary after it didn’t help. I prefer to judge him on his body of work on GOT which I think has been quite good.

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    130. Andrew,

      To add a few other really well directed scenes by graves:
      – Varys and Tyrion conversation in 3×04
      – Sansas and Dontos escape in 4×03 (the camerawork and the music as they run through the streets)
      – The tracking shot at the beginning of 4×08
      – Littlefingers trial

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    131. Ok edit..
      we all hated how the sept scene turned out compared to the book version. I do have to defend Jaime’s honor a bit here. But the scene itself wasn’t badly shot, I just think the material was altered in a way I don’t agree with.

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    132. They can’t be serious. A poster about a moment in S4 with a photoshop’ed in Drogon from an actual S4 shot? If this is the actual poster for the season, it’ll be the worst thing this show has ever done. It’s atrocious.

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    133. Archmaester,

      I agree with this, and with all of the people who are stepping up to defend Alex Graves. He’s an exceptionally talented director, and he’s done excellent work on Game of Thrones. Five of the six episodes that he’s directed (“And Now His Watch Is Ended”, “Kissed by Fire”, “The Lion and the Rose” “The Mountain and the Viper”, and “The Children”) would be in my top 10 episodes of the show overall as well. And I have a higher opinion of “Breaker of Chains” than most. Yes, that one scene wasn’t handled well, but unfortunately the debate over that particular issue has grown intense enough so as to overshadow the rest of the episode, which I thought was both well-written and well-shot (Tywin’s speech to Tommen about what it means to be a good king – which oddly enough immediately precedes the divisive scene – is one of my favorite scenes in the entire series, and well-directed to boot).

      Yes, Graves had great material to work with in his episodes, but for the most part he took that material and used it to create a great visual product – which really is all that I care about. I really don’t care what he said on the DVD commentary or in some interview – most people don’t watch or read that stuff. I don’t give a crap that he hasn’t read the books – most directors (and actors) working on the show haven’t either, and it hasn’t negatively affected their work. I don’t care that Graves has ideas about certain characters that some people think are misconstrued – those ideas didn’t negatively affect the episodes that he worked on in any way. I’m a bit more sympathetic to concerns about how he may have influenced or handled the budget for the wight/COTF/Bloodraven scene, but that’s not sufficient reason in my eyes to hope that he doesn’t ever return to the series.

      As for the idea that Graves was burnt out by the end of Season 4 – I can’t blame him! I think that it’s obvious at this point that, given how intensive and all-consuming the production schedule is, directing four episodes of Game of Thrones in a single season is probably too much for one person to handle. Alan Taylor needed a break after directing four episodes of Season 2 (to be fair, his work on Game of Thrones also gave him the opportunity to direct movies, which is why he hasn’t returned to the series). Clearly Graves did as well. I think that Benioff and Weiss have learned that particular lesson (and I’d like to applaud their own indefatigable commitment when it comes to the herculean task of making this series as great as it is. I don’t think that gets enough credit). One of the many reasons I’m so excited for Season 5 is that they’ve lined up five strong directors to handle two consecutive episodes apiece, which should provide a nice balance between consistent visual style and individual directorial flair without overtaxing anyone. Should Alex Graves be open to returning to Game of Thrones for Season 6, I hope that Benioff and Weiss invite him back to direct one or two episodes. I have ample reason to expect that he’d do a great job.

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    134. OrtMeyer,

      Hmm it looks ok actually. Viewing all 5 side by side shows how strong seasons 1 and 2 (especially 1) are compared to the rest. They should have kept a season 1 style border for each one.

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    135. Yeah, this hip Graves hate is… well… hip. Let’s hate an obviously great director who was behind some of the best GoT episodes (and most iconic scenes/moments) thus far because of the infamous sept scene and the fact he doesn’t know the nanoscopic minutia of character lore.

      From what I read, he actually takes extra care to familiarize himself with book material and was very inquisitive with D&D on how certain arcs will be progressing. I am willing to bet that he’s actually among the best-versed directors on the show where lore and backstory are concerned.

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    136. Just a thought but does anyone in the Watch besides Jon Snow know what Mance looks like? They could just claim Rattleshirt or someone is him and have them *ahem* dealt with, instead?
      Be interesting to see if Mance goes to cause havoc at WF or replaces the leader of the Hill Clans….or just meets his apparent ‘fate’ for real.

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    137. Jaime’s girl: Ok edit..
      we all hated how the sept scene turned out compared to the book version.

      The book version was told from Jaime’s point of view. Just like Jeyne Westerling’s hips, it is subjective and not objective. What Jaime perceived and what we saw could easily be the same thing. What they showed is more or less what I assumed really happened when I read the book. (But, then, I assumed that Jaime described Jeyne Westerling as thin because Jaime’s subjective standards for beauty are based on a middle-aged woman who is putting on weight and who’s hips have passed three kids.)

      Similarly, I think that Graves gets criticism for the “fireball” scenes. People never ask: how else were the wights supposed to be lit on fire? The book implies it was just a torch, but that was bad writing by GRRM. Shove a torch onto a frozen corpse and the torch goes out. Burning bodies is actually really hard: and more so when they are filled with frozen water. Pouring oil or another accelerant is an option. Or, just use magic. After all, magic exists in Westeros. And that is much, much less silly looking than corpses suddenly bursting into flame once a torch touches them. (Indeed, I sometimes think that a lot of fantasy fans wonder whey Oberyn didn’t burst into flame when he passed his hands over a candle!)

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    138. KG: So … Leonard Nimoy :/

      Ah, I once heard Nimoy talk about the reception he would get when he visited research centers, as he was a patron of the sciences. Scientists would talk to him in elaborate detail about their projects, and he would just nod sagely and say “This seems fascinating: keep up the good work!”

      Once Nimoy noticed that his guide just could stop from chuckling. Afterwards, Nimoy asked why. The guide told him that the scientists spoke to most of the rich donors who came through like they were not-particularly-bright children: but they spoke to Nimoy not just like he (Nimoy) was a colleague, but a senior colleague that they wanted to impress! As a scientist myself, I can totally believe that story.

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    139. Annara Snow,

      Right, except everyone in power in the Vale knows who she is, and she’s already showing manipulation skills. Doesn’t mean it will happen, doesn’t mean it won’t. And I still like the idea.

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    140. Do people hate the sept rape because after season one’s horrible act crippling a child, they now like Jaime and want to forget that he’s THAT person? He did a horrible thing FOR Cersei. Then as he is revealed to be a better person than it seemed at first, while she becomes worse… He does a horrible thing TO her. How is that bad storytelling? Dude pushed a child out of a window.

      And to all you academics, it’s “whose.”

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    141. Bongo,

      That’s a simplistic reduction of many people’s explanation of their feelings on the subject. For many, the issue is not having Jaime commit rape but the fact that the show’s writers, producers and director did not seem to realize they WERE depicting a rape. That was the source of much of the controversy- the comments from GoT staff.

      Another issue for some is that the relationship between Jaime and Cersei is one of the few major consensual relationships in the series. Creepy and incestuous, okay, but at least they chose each other.

      Jaime may be a knight, a soldier, someone who kills, but that doesn’t necessarily make him a rapist. Morality isn’t black and white that way. Just because he’ll push Bran out the window to protect Cersei doesn’t mean he’ll rape the woman he loves.

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    142. Sue the Fury,

      Those are my same feelings on the issue. And I usually couple those with Cersei’s unrealistic reaction to her rape, should we go with the rape theory vs the involuntary depiction of one, in the next episodes. Stands up to Tywin, tells him the truth about her and Jaime and says no to her being married to Loras and shipped off away from King’s Landing, then goes to the KG room and tells him that she chooses him, loves him. Which makes it clear to me, that it was a big screw up all around.

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    143. Sue the Fury,

      As awful as the subject matter was, the scene played out fine for me. Without a Cersei PoV, we just don’t know what was going through her mind. How do you think it should have played out…with Cersei happily, unhesitatingly and ceremoniously fucking Jaime next to her son’s corpse? Jaime is not on a redemptive arc, as so many seem to hope for. Just like the Talisa-effect of the RW (and the Craster’s Keep over-the-top nonsense), the showrunners seemed to want more brutality played out onscreen.

      Where the show failed was not in that scene but in the follow-up scenes that had Jaime and Cersei being somewhat amicable and close. That sept scene should have been a pivotal point in their relationship, sending it cascading downward. Even in the books, their relationship was dead after that scene (for many reasons). It was a desperate, destructive act that should have had severe consequences on the show but unfortunately any key physical and mental ramification of the sept scene was glossed over…much like the massively destructive banter between Jaime and Tyrion that SHOULD have happened before Tywin’s murder. For all the show’s impact and magnitude, it grossly misses some very key elements.

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    144. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I am not sure that the show actually misses the point but more like modifies the point/key element. For example they left the

      Jaime/Tyrion relationship fully intact which is about as far away from the books’ Jaime/ Tyrion’s dynamic as possible. They also chose to keep Jaime/Cersei stronger by completely cutting off the Kettlebacks or her anger at him for being a changed man since his return. Show can still use Lancel for that but at this point I doubt it as Jaime goes to Dorne, while Lancel returns to KL in his absence apparently.

      To me it looks like they don’t go in the same direction at this point with Jaime, as the books go. I wonder if anyone else feels like I do.

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    145. Tormund’s Woman,

      I wonder if I am in the minority that is cheering for the upcoming LS-Brienne-Jaime jamboree in TWoW? Jaime is fucking doomed….or will be changed forever.

      I loved that Jaime helped save Tyrion while they both detested and derided each other. What a crazy, disturbing scenario!!!! I’m glad you found some positives in their last few moments, but I honestly had trouble with it. Jaime was part of Tyrion’s spiraling madness! If they survive and hug when Tyrion comes back to Westeros, I will vomit. 🙂

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    146. Hodor’s Bastard: As awful as the subject matter was, the scene played out fine for me. Without a Cersei PoV, we just don’t know what was going through her mind.

      Also, something that gets forgotten is that in the book, Cersei is protesting most of the time. Jaime is only dimly aware of her hitting him, saying that someone will walk in on them, the gods will disapprove, etc. Jaime just blocks it out (according to the book!) Again, this is why the subjective narrative is so important to remember: what Jaime perceives and what actually happens are two different things. But that’s key: if Cersei is actually striking Jaime and telling him to stop, then what should it look like to a 3rd party? (That would be us!)

      That is why I bring up the Jeyne Westerling issue above. Although it is a very different example, it is nevertheless another example of a subjective viewpoint that differs from another subjective viewpoint or from absolute “truth.”

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    147. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I won’t.

      I found the fallout between the two in the books to be forced and out-of-character for Tyrion. Oh, sure: temporary anger from Tyrion? That I could see. But Tyrion should have recognized that the real culprit in all of this was his father, and that his brother was just a pawn in all of that.

      Still, I doubt that your fear will come true. The original outline for the plot suggests that GRRM always had something big in mind where this was concerned. You can change a lot of the plot without affecting the story: but, to borrow a phrase from Doctor Who, there are some small number of “fixed points” in the plot that are critical to the story. Interestingly, this could one of them: although the circumstances leading up to the split changed, the split was retained. (This is definitely one case where I feel that the revisions didn’t lead up to the point as well as the original version probably did.) Still,

      I have a hard time seeing if we’ll ever get that reunion. I expect Jaime and Cersei to die killing each other without Tyrion present.

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    148. Sue the Fury:
      Bongo,
      For many, the issue is not having Jaime commit rape but the fact that the show’s writers, producers and director did not seem to realize they WERE depicting a rape. That was the source of much of the controversy- the comments from GoT staff.

      But didn’t Benioff say that Jaime forced himself on Cersei somewhere? I know what Alex Graves said, but I’m not sure he’s on the same page as D&D in this case. Which raises a bunch of other questions I suppose. Graves’ comments were definitely cringeworthy in any case.

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    149. Yivo,

      The point is that relationship, however unorthodox, was never sexually abusive until the sept scene (if we stick with rape). That rape should have had some traumatic consequence in the victim, realistically speaking (shock, dismay, whatever). Cersei displayed none, not even a confrontation on the subject with Jaime. I prefer big screw up. It is fortunate for you not to see anything amiss. I wish I could say the same.

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    150. Tormund’s Woman,

      Well, she seemed very cold towards him next episode to me anyway, even more so than before, which seems unlikely if they just had consensual sex. Just because there is no confrontation doesn’t mean it didn’t bother her. In Episode 5 we got the line “everywhere in the world they hurt little girls”, which immediately made me think of the sept scene.

      I do get what your saying though, and I don’t think it was handled brilliantly or anything.
      And it’s not like the show has a good track record with such things either. Did we ever get a scene with Dany responding to the fact that she was raped repeatedly by Drogo? I don’t believe so, and I also don’t recall too many criticisms of that story line either.

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    151. Wimsey,

      Interesting. Honestly, I expected an emotional turn of events between Tyron and Jaime to occur during the “Orson beetles” scene in S4ep8, not for it to be a buddy-buddy moment. I expected the beetles story to morph into a “remember this great lie between us” sequence where Jaime admits to a horrible lie in their past…similar to how the RV revealed the “monster baby” story when he championed Tyrion…only this time Tyrion is hurt and unraveled by Jaime’s reveal. Then when Jaime comes to “save” Tyrion…possibly out of regret….the departure is bitter and tortuous, leading to the murderous deviation from Varys and Jaime’s plan.

      But it didn’t happen that way onscreen and I scratched my head and accepted it. Hence, we will never get another great, oft-repeated, ASoI&F phrase from ADwD: “Wherever whores go” in its true inebriated glory…for better or worse. 🙂

      I also wonder if we’ll ever get the surprisingly belittling comment from Genna (or someone): “…Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you.”. But I doubt that is where they are taking Jaime in the show.

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    152. One thing I will not miss about the Tysha omission is “wherever whores go.” I tend to be one who focuses on what I enjoy about a book, and don’t get too caught up in things I don’t like, but “wherever whores go” started to bug me.

      Also, while I was expecting the Tysha moment (like most book readers), those I’ve seen argue it’s strips Tyrion of his motivation to kill Tywin, well, I think there was plenty of other motivation, and the Unsullied I know were not sitting there wondering, “why did Tyrion kill Tywin.” They seemed to feel he had ample motivation.

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    153. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      You have to wonder if the showrunners will give homage to that overused phrase this season, as well as “words are wind…”. I always refer to this great essay when thinking about the seemingly intentional overuse of those phrases by GRRM in ADwD. Perhaps they were repeated to exemplify the “stuck in neutral” existence of various characters…or it could have been a commentary of GRRM’s state of mind while trying to cobble together that gloriously meandering tome.

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    154. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Thanks for posting that essay. It was an interesting read. I’d guess, yes, the showrunners will definitely work “words are wind” in there, somewhere, but who knows about the “whores” line. The essay did make me think about the repeated use of words or phrases, though, and I realized I don’t have a problem with phrases being repeated when it is by different characters. It makes those phrases just seem like common phrases in whatever region or country. It only starts to bother me when it’s the same character repeating a phrase over and over.

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    155. Yivo,

      Always thought Cersei was cold, destroyed and hurt because of her son’s death not because of Jaime especially in light of how she stood up to Tywin. Jaime was the boy’s father but he didn’t mourn Joff as she did. He never truly cared for him and it showed. So, Cersei was pretty alone in her grief. That could make a anyone look cold and aloof.

      As for the little girl bit, she’s no longer one obviously, but who knows who she had in mind… For example, I thought she was referring to Sansa! She did refer to her as little girl several times and she saw how the Stark girl was treated by her own son. She could also be referring to her own childhood. Quite interesting you brought that up.

      I wasn’t around when the show Dany/Drogo was discussed. But I remember book discussions. Heated ones, about how unrealistic that whole thing was. And I agree. But this is a show thread and the incident is past gone. No use rehashing old arguments after all.

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    156. Yivo,

      Lol you are right about that! I didn’t mean to close the discussion about the Dany/Drogo argument for you. I just meant it for me, because the book argument and heated discussions happened years ago. Plus I would not have a lot to bring to it. We are probably on the same page if I read your comment correctly about that.

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    157. Tormund’s Woman: The point is that relationship, however unorthodox, was never sexually abusive until the sept scene (if we stick with rape).

      Actually, we cannot say that: we have a sample size of 2, after all, and there were many prior years to the! The sad truth is that most of what counted for “foreplay” in such societies would count as “rape” in ours. But, then, the notion that a man could rape a woman with whom he had had prior consensual sex is a very new one that still has not taken hold over all of our societies. Remember, laws making it a crime for husbands to rape their wives were denounced as “anti-family” and also criticized because women are “supposed” to submit to their husbands, which means that the woman was truly at fault for not saying yes. And the people saying that are still alive: heck, at least one of them is currently in the US Congress!

      Hodor’s Bastard: Honestly, I expected an emotional turn of events between Tyron and Jaime to occur during the “Orson beetles” scene in S4ep8, not for it to be a buddy-buddy moment. I expected the beetles story to morph into a “remember this great lie between us” sequence where Jaime admits to a horrible lie in their past…similar to how the RV revealed the “monster baby” story when he championed Tyrion…only this time Tyrion is hurt and unraveled by Jaime’s reveal.

      I do not think that it would have worked on TV simply because Tysha was never on the show. Moreover, the TV series set up Tyrion’s motives very well as it was: in that scene and others, Tyrion makes it clear that he thinks that Tywin is framing Tyrion. It also was made very clear in Season 4 and before that Tyrion feels (with some justification!) that Tywin wishes that Tyrion was dead. Given how well the show (like the books!) developed Tyrion as someone who, misgivings aside, really does do his utmost for his family and who deeply craves recognition by his family members (particularly Daddy!) as a true Lannister, this level of betrayal seems motive enough. (The show also made Tyrion’s love for Shae look quite genuine: the additional betrayal of seeing her in his father’s bed was just more salt in the wound for the viewing audience.)

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    158. Wimsey:
      I do not think that it would have worked on TV simply because Tysha was never on the show.

      Of course, W. I gave up on Tysha long ago, and I do agree that Tyrion had enough motivation in the show to become a kinslayer, but I thought something would have come up between Tyrion and Jaime during that scene that would have made the situation bittersweet, or even damaging/disturbing, between them. But that was not to be and we must accept the more amicable direction they took for Jaime and Tyrion’s final moments in the show.

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    159. Wimsey: Actually, we cannot say that: we have a sample size of 2, after all, and there were many prior years to the!

      Actually, I can. You probably cannot. In the absence of any evidence or clue that Jamie sexually abused her for years and years before and interpreting what I’ve seen so far on screen, I believe their incestuous relationship was between two consenting adults with no sexual abuse (think innocent until proven guilty, I suppose). I personally would consider it a failure for the show writers to miss introducing this rather large piece of information to define Jamie/Cersei relationship in four seasons. They have succeeded in showing Rob/Cersei abuse just fine in half a season. But far be it from to tell you how to judge it.

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    160. Hodor’s Bastard: But that was not to be and we must accept the more amicable direction they took for Jaime and Tyrion’s final moments in the show.

      Well, one big difference between the initial draft and what GRRM did was that Cersei took on many of Jaime’s egregious traits. It might be that the true “fixed point” was the fallout between Tyrion and that part of Jaime that became Cersei. After all, the original Jaime was grasping for any power that he could and eliminating everyone in the way: and that’s now Cersei, not Jaime.

      So, it is possible that BYW realize that there isn’t anything between Jaime and Tyrion to belabor for the future. GRRM might have retained it as a vestige of the original draft simply because it was there from the start, even as Jaime became less and less Cersei. (Think of it as a literary appendix….)

      Tormund’s Woman: I believe their incestuous relationship was between two consenting adults with no sexual abuse (think innocent until proven guilty, I suppose).

      But, again, in that sort of society this would not be considered sexual abuse because they were established lovers. That would be the basis on which Cersei would judge it. Is this “right” by our standards? Certainly not. However, I think that it is to the show’s credit that it does not shy away from how harsh life and moralities were for women in these societies. Unlike many fantasies, this is not fantastic.

      (Indeed, showing what Jaime perceived might have been worse: that could come across too much like the “no means yes” protesting that too many men believe is common.)

      Moreover, this keeps dodging the main point. The scene in the TV show is completely consistent with what is in the books. Cersei does say no. She does resist. She actually strikes Jaime. And Jaime basically ignores it: GRRM’s own words are that he only dimly registers that it’s happening. So, if that what Jaime dimly perceives in his frenzied lust, then what really happened? As Hodor’s Bastard and others note, we do not get Cersei’s PoV on this. We do not get a disinterested 3rd party. What is shown is as consistent with what Jaime perceives as Catelyn’s description of Jeyne Westerling’s hips is with Jaime’s description of Jeyne Westerling’s hips.

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    161. Wimsey,

      Are you arguing that a woman in a society, any society wouldn’t distinguish between the action of being pinned to the ground, have her vagina penetrated forcefully while she’s resisting and consensual sex? Just because she had previously said yes and she had desired that person before? That she wouldn’t react different (hurt, frightened, betrayed or angry) simply because the societal rules and views are telling her that is ok? And I didn’t even use the modern labels (such as rape, sexual abuse etc.)

      I’m not sure what to tell you, Wimsey. I think abuse feels like abuse to the victim in any society whatever the norms, whether is “accepted” or not, whether is punishable by law or not. We’ll just have to disagree on that, unless you can literally produce proof of a raped woman from 13th century for example that said she throughly enjoyed being forced to have sex against her will.

      I did see you tried to steer the discussion towards the book scene, and it looks like you think it is the important thing by the way you express yourself, but I don’t see how that is relevant to be honest.

      I don’t think one can justify a screwed up scene (by the cast and crew’s own admission) by looking at the book and say: hey but it was rape in the book (that’s if one thinks it was). It just doesn’t make any sense to me, since the show apparently didn’t mean to portray a rape scene! Maybe. They are not sure… Wait, they changed their mind and said it was rape… HOLD IT! They just reconfirmed it was not rape. (you see where I’m going with this hopefully 😀 )

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    162. Tormund’s Woman: I did see you tried to steer the discussion towards the book scene, and it looks like you think it is the important thing by the way you express yourself, but I don’t see how that is relevant to be honest.

      The issue has always been whether the scene was different from the book scene. My argument is that it actually is consistent with what GRRM wrote.

      As for what you write, I do not disagree with you. However, this is an issue with which human rights and women’s rights activists have been wrestling for decades. Women in “traditional” societies are taught that this is not rape and that they cannot complain about this sort of thing. Indeed, re-read (or re-watch) what Jaime does: he keeps pushing until Cersei relents. Sadly, this probably was considered “gentlemanly” behavior: keep pushing until she says yes. This probably stood in contrast with Robert simply forcing himself on her.

      Something I appreciate about the way that both GRRM and the show handle these things is that they do not sugarcoat what life would be like for a woman in this sort of society. Even the “good men” view sex as a right. In a way, it is akin to looking at the attitudes of 19th century abolitionists. With only a few notable exceptions, none of them viewed Africans as equal to Europeans: they simply thought that Africans should be allowed to catch up to Europeans as free people. Why do I bring up that example? Because if you want to see how far an oppressed group (including but not limited to women) has to go to achieve equality, don’t look at how the “bad white men” hold them: look at how the “good white men” hold them. When the relatively “good guys” are still bigots and pigs, that means that there is a big uphill climb. (The show Mad Men provides some good examples of this: that is set “only” 40 years ago, yet similar behavior happens frequently on that show: because it did, and women in the 1960’s were told that this didn’t qualify as sexual abuse.)

      And, of course, that’s important because one thing that all of GRRM’s protagonists have in common is that they are “lessers” in the eyes of society. Half of them are women. The men are a dwarf, a bastard and asundry physical and/or psychological cripples. By showing how cavalier people are in regards to the rights and assumed abilities of these people, it does a lot to emphasize the struggles that the individual lead characters face.

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    163. Wimsey,

      Actually, I’d add one thing from the slavery angle that comes up in Dragons. (I hope it comes up on TV, but we’ll see.) Tyrion observes the same sort of thing among slaves. Well-treated slaves think that they actually have it good. They are so brain-washed by the system that they forget that they are property, not people. Tyrion (for whom even being a well-treated slave is a huge step down) recognizes just how insidious it is. Moreover, he begins to take a huge step-forward: he begins to extrapolate from that to what it is like for “small folk” in Westeros, who are not slaves, but who also are not entirely free.

      But this applies to all oppressed people: such is a woman’s lot, bastards are known to be immoral, cripples are known to be stunted in all ways, etc. Because that’s what even the “good” “rich white men” teach them!

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    164. Hodor’s Bastard:

      Honestly, I expected an emotional turn of events between Tyron and Jaime to occur during the “Orson beetles” scene in S4ep8, not for it to be a buddy-buddy moment. I expected the beetles story to morph into a “remember this great lie between us” sequence where Jaime admits to a horrible lie in their past…

      I thought there was a lot of unspoken tension in Jaime’s first visit to Tyrion in Ep. 4. Jaime’s making the usual glib comments about Tyrion’s prison cell (“at least you have a pot to piss in”), acting casual and so on, but Tyrion is in no mood to play anymore. Tyrion subtly calls Jaime out on his BS and Joffrey’s real parentage, giving the impression he’s had Jaime’s (and Cersei’s) number for a long time, maybe even from the beginning.

      Tywin’s murder will already put a rift between them. It’s possible the Tysha reveal is being held back for a later time. Tyrion finds out the truth on his own, or Jaime confesses his sin to someone else -maybe Bronn – and tells Tyrion when he reunites later with him. Either way, it won’t be pretty.

      Wimsey:

      Something I appreciate about the way that both GRRM and the show handle these things is that they do not sugarcoat what life would be like for a woman in this sort of society. Even the “good men” view sex as a right.

      We see how Olenna uses her granddaughter as a “marriage prospect”. Tywin doesn’t lose any sleep bargaining Cersei. Even Ned Stark wouldn’t do anything to save Sansa from marrying Joffrey or find an alternative path for Arya. So yeah. . .female lives really aren’t worth anything, no matter how rich or honorable or well-off the family is.

      Tormund’s Woman:

      In the absence of any evidence or clue that Jamie sexually abused her for years and years before and interpreting what I’ve seen so far on screen, I believe their incestuous relationship was between two consenting adults with no sexual abuse (think innocent until proven guilty, I suppose).

      This relationship is abusive on both sides. In Season 1, the few physically intimate scenes of Jaime and Cersei, Jaime is pretty rough with her. Cersei can’t control him physically, and her reactions seem half-hearted at some moments, like she doesn’t like being handled that way. Jaime abuses her physically; Cersei abuses him emotionally, using the sex as a way to keep him by her side to protect her and do her bidding. As long as she ultimately got her way, she didn’t object too much to Jaime’s being rough, regardless of how she really felt about it. So in his mind Cersei was OK with it.

      In the sept scene Cersei was clearly disgusted by Jaime being maimed, and there was an implication she would sleep with him again only if Jaime killed Tyrion. What Jaime should have done is turn around and leave. But Jaime being Jaime, he wanted his own way, and since he was physically stronger he did what he wanted. And in Ep. 10, Cersei did what she wanted, manipulating him and using sex to keep him as an useful asset.

      What Jaime and Cersei have isn’t romantic – it’s sick and gross, and brings out the worst in them. And this doesn’t even involve the fact that it’s incest. You can see how that worked out for the Targaryens.

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    165. Flora Linden: What Jaime and Cersei have isn’t romantic – it’s sick and gross, and brings out the worst in them.

      What it is (particularly on Cersei’s end) is narcissistic. Basically, she views Jaime and herself as part of one person: and, man, does Cersei love herself. I do not know that it so much brings out the worst in Cersei as it is, in a way, raw unadulterated Cersei.

      It probably is that way on Jaime’s end for most of his life. However, it is very possible that he is evolving away from that. As I have stated before, my opinion is that what some people have called a “redemptive arc” is really a “finding a proverbial soul” arc: and as Jaime goes from that callow individual that he was to the person that we see at the end of Crows/Dragons, it’s possible that he’ll start viewing his relationship with his sister as you describe it.

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    166. Wimsey,

      I stand by what I said regarding the importance of book vs show scene. Your reasoning while sound from your perspective if you think that the script matched the book, would not influence or explain anything to the Unsullied in their interpretation of the scene.

      I would have liked to respond to Tyrion’s slavery thoughts. I loved that introspect philosophical part of his in the Dance, while I have torn feelings on the matter of what he says. Maybe when the show passes that part we will debate it and see how the show treats it.

      Flora Linden,

      I looks to me you are describing an unhealthy relationship. That’s second door to the right from the sexual abuse one, or a non-consenting relationship.

      Generally speaking, I think when cheating on one’s husband in any society, it is difficult to develop a healthy relationship with one’s lover (not impossible mind you), especially if you are living all under the same roof and have his kids pass off as your husband’s, while all the while fearing for your life that your secret comes out.

      It is also difficult to keep your sanity no doubt when your husband is forcing you every once in a while to have sex with your lover next door. Or slaps you around when speaking out of turn. Or forbid your lover to never look at his kids as a father.

      I took the incest out since you took it out as well. So yes, unhealthy. Still consensual and not sexually abusive as far as I’m concerned. Well… that’s until the sept scene.

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    167. Wimsey,

      I agree about Cersei’s narcissism, she doesn’t like anything upsetting her perfect view of herself and her world. Getting older or becoming maimed would be no-nos in her book.

      I hope Jaime decides to become more than what’s he has been, too.

      Tormund’s Woman,

      Thank you for your response. I avoided commenting on the sept scene the first time around because the debate got so frenzied then.

      Had the sept scene involved two different people, there wouldn’t be as much debate. But with Jaime and Cersei, it’s just so much more disturbing. What Jaime did was totally wrong. Yet, given what they’ve both done to each other already, it’s not entirely surprising something like this would happen eventually.

      Cersei and Jaime together just creeps me out – book and TV versions. Not only for the incest. There’s a violent, rough undertone to their relationship. Maybe not at the beginning when they were kids. But with Cersei’s ambitions/resentments and Jaime’s experiences in the Kingsguard, it morphed into something ugly over the years.

      Also, neither one really makes an effort to understand the other’s POV. Jaime doesn’t get Cersei’s love for her children or her grief over losing Joffrey; Cersei isn’t remotely interested is how Jaime has been struggling after being maimed (and hurt at how she rejects him because of it) and that he tried his best to return to her as soon as he could.

      I totally get the scenario you present, and I don’t disagree with it. It’s just, I don’t know if that applies to Cersei and Jaime’s specific situation.

      Like Wimsey pointed out, maybe the narcissism of the Lannister twins makes it more messy and complex. They aren’t just a generic cheating couple, you know what I mean?

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