The Three-Eyed Raven is once again sending out visions of season 5 and according to the messages and the Raven’s website, this batch will be the last until the Game of Thrones season 5 premiere on April 12th.
So far viewers have reported two different visions going around, as usual. This time, however, the visions each consist of one short clip from season 5, rather than a scattered montage of old footage as the previous Sight messages have been.
Descriptions of the clips are tucked below a cut as they could be considered spoilers.
UPDATE: Videos of both Visions have been added to the post.
WotW reader Cersei’s Wine Goblet provides this description:
The video was Brienne and Pod, and she told him (paraphrasing) “I don’t want anyone following me much less be a leader. All I ever wanted was to fight for a lord I believed in. The good lord is dead, and the rest are monsters.”
The message concluded on a frame of Pod and Brienne with the words “The Raven has brought its last vision. The future begins on April 12.
WotW reader Mike has shared these screencaps:
Over at Westeros.org, commenter Kelsey094 says:
Apparently the sight thing is still going on. Got another one.
Only this time it’s a full scene with Jon and Mance talking, a piece of a full scene instead of some random images. It’s so much better than the other sights.
Jon was saying to Mance that he didn’t do it all for glory or fame, but for his people and that his pride shouldn’t be more important, to which Mance awnsered: ‘Pride? Fuck my pride.’
And here’s the Jon and Mance clip.
If you receive a different vision than one of these, let us know in comments!
Since these are the last visions, can we expect another trailer sometime soon?
Finally something new
If the leaked script is accurate,
Turncloak,
That makes sense.
Hopefully there’s a few more versions and not just these two. I’m unreasonably hungry for footage 😛
Turncloak,
Or maybe
It would be awesome if there is one different sight for all the main characters. But they always had only 2 different visions, so maybe not.
What does Brienne’s words mean?
1. Where can i find this leaked script (is that the one covering just episode 1)?
2. I think Brianne is a “dead woman walking”. With no LS she has no puspose really, Arya gets away from her and Sansa will refuse her …. bye bye Brianne i do hope DD give her a “good” death tough.
Ya sounds like its about Jon asking Mance to kneel.
asdf,
If they wanted that they would kill him last season.
asdf,
Hoyti Von Totiy,
The leaked script is the one that covers the first episode and some stuff from later ones as well. Though I can’t agree about Brienne, just because D&D did away with LS it doesn’t mean that Brienne’s arc will be just cut short, she’s received way too much screentime to just die now without impact.
Luka Nieto,
I almost wonder if the set up his burning and at the last minute he (or someone else like Stannis) calls it off and he ends up accompanying Stannis on his march with the Wildlings. Or maybe they really burn him, who knows?
You haven’t been paying attention
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Yes it’s just the facebook one covering episode 1 and some scenes in ep 2-3. It was word for word accurate in predicting what we saw in the first season 5 trailer
Im not saying it wont have impact (hell it might be Sansa who has her killed…) but i think she has no storyline anymore with no LS and with Jamie in Dorne… :-/
King Tommen,
That’d be great. Could be a great redeeming moment for show-Stannis, in terms of the hold that Mel has over him, which seems to be much greater in the show (also, his atheism was passed over to Davos in the show.)
QuestioningHodor,
Or Brienne is LSH…..Dun Dun Dun
King Tommen,
the trailer made a point to show us Rattleshirt (the lord of bones) so I think we will see the
And then again, the glamour could totally be in which means Mance is with Jon (disguised as Rattleshirt) when they go to Hardhome.
I’m not totally discounting that Rattleshirt is simply there because he’s leading the group of Wildlings held up at Hardhome which would mean he’s definitely not Mance.
In other words, I have no freaking idea.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
I swear I saw Kayne in one of the shots.
New theory is coming !!!
and podrick will be wyman manderly !
Here’s my super low quality sideways recording of the Brienne video. If someone posts a better one, I’ll be deleting.
http://youtu.be/-fNojrUhwso
p.s. Dying to see the Jon/Mance video.
p.s.s. How do I add an avatar to my name on this website?
Got my vision via Twitter but when I pressed play, instead of the video playing I got a text saying that the vision has come and gone and that this is the last vision untill April 12th. Thanks for reminding me again why I absolutely hated this campaign!
Hmm. They already established them meeting Hot Pie last season, so they’ll have someone to make the pies. Get hype.
CerseisWineGoblet,
I just use gravatar, and it goes automatically.
King Tommen,
Tormund’s bushy red hair can definitely be seen in the first Hardhome shot, with Jon standing on the boat.
Nice, it seems that they only learned how to make a good sight teaser in the last days…
Ironborn,
Thanks!
the brienne scene is very depressing
It is ok.
I believe this is the scene just after that epic fight in S4E10.
don dark star,
King Tommen,
Yeah, I agree. I wonder where her story is going. AFFC’s relevant story points have already been dealt with, except for her last chapter. The specific plot is almost unrecognizable, but the story remains the same, and it’s almost over. The crucial revelations, setbacks and support she receives have already been covered. In the books, she meets Podrick and he becomes her squire; she learns that Lysa Arryn is dead; she learns that a daughter of Lord Stark has been seen with the Hound; later she learns Arya Stark is the one who was last seen with the Hound, not Sansa, and that the Hound is now supposedly dead. Then she has a fight with someone she’d believed to be the Hound (though in the books, it isn’t.) Though in a different way and in a different order of events, all of that has been present in the show. As I said, only her last chapter is left.
So… I really have no idea.
CerseisWineGoblet,
Thank you! The video is more than watchable!
Hey, it took a while, but these things started providing some slightly meaningful content.
Everyone will be someone else!
” WE ARE NOT WHO WE ARE!” dum dum dum
Interesting thought…….
Her last chapter was partially adapted too. When Arya and the Hound judged her based on the evidences pointing her to be “guilty”, and we may see this again with her meeting with Sansa.
Luka Nieto,
There is absolutely no indication that they’re in but I cannot think of any other step for Brienne other than her encountering the BwB (in whatever form they’re in). She can’t go back to King’s Landing, Jaime’s in Dorne, there’s no reason for her to go North and there is no one in the show’s version of the Riverlands that makes sense either.
She’s homeless and directionless and mission-less, the BwB seem to be her destination. Maybe will get some further hints in the next trailer.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Brienne’s story is intertwined with Jaime’s.
Too much has been set up, and it would be a waste of a character to just kill off Brienne before she reunites with Jaime. Also, the next POV character D&D kill off that is alive in the books will be the first. Not saying that won’t happen, it most assuredly will, especially if TWOW isn’t released before season 6, though even GRRM doesn’t kill off POV characters that often. Ned,Catelyn,Arys, and Quentyn are the only POV characters to die, if I recall.
King Tommen,
Brienne and Pod definitely end up in the Riverlands, if the trailer isn’t misleading us somehow. I’d love the Blackfish and/or the Brotherhood without Banners to come back. Can’t say I’m sure at all it’s happening, but I’d definitely love it to happen.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Jaime will still be in Dorne by episode 9. But I agree, they must reunite eventually. They won’t kill either of them before that.
Blackfish will appear again. Actor confirmed it. But we don’t know when and where.
Aww, they better not kill off Brienne. I will cry and start a riot! 🙁
I would love that to happen as well. If the BWB returns, it is likely that they will come back in her storyline. There are a few other options for the Blackfish but I could see him joining up with Thoros and company. Eventually, Brienne and Jaime have to cross paths.
thanks everyone for using the spoiler code… sarcasm. -_-
I dont see why they have to? No LS, no BwB, no Riverlands poltline, no Jamie and only 2 seasons left after this …. its over.
The last time Jamie and Brianne saw each other was reminiscent of Eddard – Catlyns goodbye at KL.
She´s a goner 100%
Hoyti Von Totiy,
That’s a very confusing and confused line of thought. Not everything is plot! If anything, plot is secondary to story and characters.
Briannes story in AFFC was filler face it. It lead nowhere …. well it did lead to LS but since that character has been cut from the TV show it means its also desposable material. Someone else is going to deal with the Freys ….
Hoyti Von Totiy,
I agree it was filler (except the end.) I don’t see how that means Brienne and Jaime won’t meet again or that Brienne will be offed.
I got the Brienne vision, which is a shame because I just watched the youtube link someone’d posted here. Hope someone posts the Mance sometime soon.
As usual, I didn’t even get to see whatever the heck they were supposed to send me.
A video window + “make sure the audio is connected” > a blank dark screen for a long time > “Raven cannot bring you the vision at this moment” > “Your vision has come and gone”.
So far, it’s worked only once. I wasn’t sure if I was even going to bother, but it doesn’t cost me anything to try.
Well GRRM himself said there will be alot of deaths in s5 of characters that are alive in the books…
Im guessing …
Brianne, Bronn, Barristan, Grey Worm, Mance, …
This entire “Visions from the Three-eyed raven” promotion has been insultingly terrible.
They’re nothing more than clips of MOSTLY Season 4 material, put together in dreamsequence, with MAYBE ONE still-shot of a Season 5 location hidden within them.
What, they think they’re being artistic by presenting them as “ooh, look, they’re out of focus and hyper-fast to look like a confusing dream” — dumbass, we have LABS for this kind of thing! We pick them apart for REAL screenshots, and you’re not giving us any!
Not to mention the debacle surrounding how the promotion didn’t even work the first time they tried doing it!
Give us *actual trailers*! Why settle for incompetence?
The Dragon Demands,
I agree that this ‘The Sight’ promotion was terrible, but obviously they have changed their tune. These new ones are essentially uncut Season 5 clips, which is pretty much what you are asking for. So I’m a bit confused. Did you even read the article? Or watched the clips?
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Barristan could be one because he hasn’t really been developed in the series, but Brienne has gotten a lot of screentime and her story isn’t in a place to end yet.
I don’t understand why people are so eager to say that Brienne’s or Sansa’s stories don’t matter by saying they’ll die or take a part of some minor character instead of continuing with their own story.
Luka Nieto,
Plot and Characters are intertwined. The “art” of adaptation is that you can simplify “Plot” mechanics while still keeping the “Character” actions generally true to the source.
The entire criticism being made is that certain “Plot” changes might cross the line into being “out of Character” to not only the source material, but established Characterization from past seasons.
Condensing or simplifying the “Plot” in and of itself, is not necessarily bad. Those trying to defend sweeping changes to *Characterization* are trying to deflect the criticism by waving it aside as merely book fans upset that even small Plot details were changed. It’s not.
Luka Nieto,
All previous ones didn’t include video. This one apparently does, but as of this posting WOTW hasn’t gotten the clips yet.
If they’re starting to improve let’s hope this is a trend.
QuestioningHodor,
Presumably they fear TWOW spoilers?
That’s because North is going to be playing fArya.
Brianne is not a cotender for the throne
She is not going to join NW and fight the nevercoming ice zombies
She was a big part of the TV show so far because of her interaction with Jamie, but
instead of sending her to Dorne with him D&D have sent Bronn
She has no interaction to any of the major “players” except Sansa who turns her away early in the season.
The Tv show has passed the half-way point and its time to start wrapping things up.
conclusion:
Rip Brainne
Luka Nieto,
They always re-arrange the scenes in episodes. They shot the scene for ep 9 but we cannot say for certain that Jaime stays in Dorne in episode 9 well until we see the ep
The Dragon Demands,
There may be no videos available, but you can read the descriptions. These are not like those vague and fast clips, mostly from Season 4. These are clearly Season 5 clips with a filter on them.
The Dragon Demands,
That’s not what we were arguing about. That’s another discussion. Hoyti says that because certain elements are apparently cut (the characters in Brienne’s last chapter), they’ll kill off Brienne before she even reunites with Jaime. My point was that their respective stories and their story together is more important than those specific plot elements, and they don’t depend on them to survive.
Daphne,
They only re-arrange scenes into eps. done by the same director. So if it was moved it would be moved to 510 actually.
How is their story toghther important?
If you are talking about a possible love story that was settled when Jamie “took” Cersei in the crypt = no Brianne love story = nothing to “finnish up”
lawd
these gravatar uploading things are giving me a headache!
Here’s a badly-recorded version of the Mance someone linked on ASOIAF reddit.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Why does there have to be a love story between Jaime and Brienne? They’re both very similiar in being denied what they wanted to be and in some ways the opposites (Jaime starting to understand he doesn’t have to act the kingslayer part and Brienne starting to get disillusioned) and they needed each other to realize that. For good or bad, Jaime’s and Brienne’s stories are very closely linked and there’s no need of any romance between them, just growing as people. That’s still ongoing, so getting rid of one would cut the character development and make the screentime and attention they’ve gotten a bit pointless as there are other characters to devote the screentime to instead.
Here’s a potential scenario…..
LF heads to KL, on business. He’s an idiot if he leaves Sansa to head to Winterfell on her own, to please a section of gossip-followers. LF is no idiot. He leaves Sansa where he knows she can work for his cause, in The Vale. It’s to his benefit in the wider vision of his planning.
Brienne is fed up, disillusioned. She’s been unable to keep an oath. Arya was an arms length away, and she couldn’t reach out. She had a Hound to tame, and did, during which time Arya got away. Where does she go next? Back to look for Sansa? She is at a complete loss. No Arya. No Sansa. Oath goes up in smoke, as far as she sees things.
Pod has to listen to Brienne pouring her soul out. (As he does.)
Insert the scene from Raven-vision.
Brienne simply does not know what to do next? It’s an utterly futile quest she’s on.
How would it look when Pod spots someone very like Sansa? He’s been closer to her than Brienne to know Sansa on sight. He will have a double-take.
Switch to Sansa. (Ignore the bath scene, because it’s too distracting.) She’s wondering about various things. Perhaps even saddened if Sweetrobin has ‘fallen thru a moon door’, not that everyone’s about faced and returned to The Eyrie. Wondering what plans LF has for Alayne and also for Sansa. Could she love him, as he hopes?
Izzy-wizzy, let’s get bizzy. Harem scarem. Hocus pocus. Fe-fi-fo-fum…… (Passage of time for thought…..)
Brienne pays a call on Sansa. “My lady. I served your mother…. and failed. I saw Arya…. yes, she’s alive and well. I….. I…..”
Sansa just says “Arya?” (sounding like she’s not really believing what she’s just heard).
“She’s good at what she does.”
“Podrick? What….?”
“My lady. My sword…. Podrick? Where’s the f***ing sword?”
“Sword!”
Brienne finds a cause, a new purpose. Sansa has her own list, to mirror Arya’s (although, obviously oblivious of Arya’s list).
Pod’s happy because he always liked Lady Sansa. (Change to very happy if he caught sight of her in the bath.)
Sansa? She can begin seeking revenge…. through her ‘sword’, Brienne.
Alayne? She can keep winning hearts, and not doing harm to her own cause… and LF’s.
Basically, it’s a LSH re-make, re-model.
Perhaps the “Sansa goes to Winterfell to be raped by Ramsey” is too set in stone for some, and only based on one very, very short snippet of video from a trailer.
Personally, I’d like to see how much of Dark Phoenix there is in Dark Sansa. Or do we have to see her evolve through Marvel Girl first?
Greenjones,
Not really … Jamie is Kingsguard, father of Tommen and Mrycella, Tyrion and Cerseis brother … he is interlinked in the story throughout.
Briannes only “connection” is Jamie now with Catlyn out of the picture and Jamie is in Dorne instead of Riverlands.
Turncloak,
Greenjones,
Pity the show!Thenns? That’s a hard sell.
Greenjones,
great scene!
CerseisWineGoblet,
Thanks for this.
The post has now been updated to include BOTH visions.
That big bitch killed my hound, she must pay…so let it be written so let it be done…write her out. Nothing personal its business
#TheHound
#woof
mau,
I would bet that BF reappears in Sansa’s storyline.
QuestioningHodor,
Baristan does not really get developed in the books until Dragons. Prior to that book, who could have guessed how prominent he would become in the narrative?
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Why? That didn’t finish the potential for J&B in the books, so why should it on TV?
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Brienne still has purpose, her love and oath to Jaime to protect the Stark girls. If she is chased out of the Vale, she will come back with reinforcements. Therefore she will race back to KL (she believes Jaime is there) to inform him she found Sansa but needs his assistance. This would be the best way to get Jaime North, all the main arcs must converge and Jaime’s is a main arc in the show.
Wimsey,
Maybe. I could see that.
Wimsey,
First, I love that Jon/Mance scene, it is well written and acted.
Now, I believe we might finally watch Barristan’s supreme fighting capability, Jaime after all says he is the best warrior (swordsman) alive.
Then Barristan, probably told that someone has important intel and goes to meet them, finds himself alone and surrounded by 6,7, 10 Harpies and “Cuts through them like cutting Cake”. Barristan’s exact words to five members of the Kingsguard.
Everyone, PLEASE COVER YOUR SPOILERS.
No words…The best visions, my iphone is dead and me too!
And now, please ANOTHER TRAILER SOON!!!!
Oohh, thank you to all who posted these clips/descriptions. I still didn’t get my vision but even if I do I probably won’t be able to see it anyway as it happened with the previous ones. A most unfortunate marketing campaign, I must say!
Mance & Jon! I can’t wait.
tyjon,
I think I love your Barristan pet theory!
asdf,
Glamoring might serve as an answer as to
I won’t count it out completely yet.
I think Brienne will live. They just need to plug another character into LS’s place, which won’t be hard because everyone everywhere hates the Lannisters and Freys. I think her storyline in s05 will actually deal with the same question fans have been asking ever since LS got debunked: what’s a sword with no master good for? Unless their shared storyline becomes yet another late-series non-event, they’ll find another way for her to run into
Otherwise, fuck it.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
He didn’t say there’d be a lot of deaths for characters that are alive in the books. He simply said “characters will die that aren’t dead in the books”. This could be 2 characters and it could mean minor characters not major ones. People love to take George out of context. Also, people keep saying LS isn’t in it, and they are clearly once again taking Alex Graves out of context. He isn’t even involved in season 5, all he said was it wasn’t in the plans to have her (in season 4). He has no creative say in the overall direction of the show or the characters or the writing, he only gets a say in what material he is DIRECTING. Can’t wait for LS to appear to the shock and horror of lots of people
mau,
Did he say a season? Walder Frey confirmed it for season 6 I think, though I cannot remember exactly. Maybe that’s just my wishful thinking.
Testing, testing.
CerseisWineGoblet,
Nice 🙂 guess it worked!
One of the valuable functions of Brienne’s character is she’s a kind of bridge between the key players and small folk in the story. She can slide along the scale. Brienne, Davos and Sam are each ill-fitting characters but they add subtleties to the story. I would hate for any of them to end with still a fair way to go.
Jaime’s girl,
Thanks!
I received the Jon/Mance video. Just a little addition: the final image was Bronn and Jamie climbing up a steep grassy hillside–perhaps a grassy seaside dune.
We REALLY need a new trailer!!
I’m warming up to the idea of Sansa
I could see the show skipping the
don dark star,
Not really: it suggests that they are rewriting her stuff to better fit the actual story! Brienne’s chapters in Crows were a sort of amorphous narrative blob….
Alleged S5E8 spoilers
Rattleshirt is selling slaves at Hardhome. Tormund is pissed and begs Jon to let him go take care of it. Jon thinks as LC he should tag along and does. At Hardhome a fight ensues. During the fight, the Night’s King shows up and starts reanimating the dead, especially those falling over the side of a cliff. Everyone panics and starts to flee, chaos everywhere. They charge at Jon who is left alone. Tormund refuses to flee and pounces on the Wights and throws Jon to the floor, protecting him. He fights off like 20 Wights trying to get at Jon before dying. They are giving Tormund a heroic death on the show, protecting Jon Snow. Before dying he tells Jon Snow to leave, get to the boats. There’s a fire torch near by. In his final act Tormund sets himself and the other Wights nearby on fire, so he can’t be brought back. Final shot of 508 is the eyes of the Night’s King meeting the eyes of Jon Snow.
If you are posting snippets of information from an alleged leaked script summary, they need to be labeled as such before the spoiler coding. People aren’t expecting to see those things, especially those who are book readers and have spoilers turned off. Have some consideration for your fellow fans, please.
THOSE CLIFFS :O I just spoiled myself big time if thats true
Sue the Fury,
Are you talking about the leaked script summaries from July that the trailer proved to be legit or ers’ above comment? As far as I know there was never a leak, real or fake, saying that.
If those alleged spoilers are true for E8, that sounds pretty damn awesome.
Yeah im already convinced they are true considering what a white walker extra said about resurrection and cliffs and yes what an epic fuckin scene if it turns out correct.
Sansa is supposed to be just Littlefinger’s niece Alayne. And even as Sansa, she would have no authority over the Vale troops, or any troops anywhere, for the time being.
Oh right, once Jaime and Cersei had sex, that settled it that they were going to be togetha 4eva and Jaime was never going to leave Cersei or be interested in another woman, say Brienne! Just like it happened in the books after the sept sex!
Oh, wait…
WUN WUN,
Ep 10 Spoilers maybe
ers,
Where is this coming from? It sounds amazing if true but I cant find any leaks mentioning this anywhere.
And Daeny had no authority over any Dothraki: until she took it. Sansa will have to do the same thing in the Vale. We already know that the Vale lords are “warm” to her. In the books, we know that
this could be retained and parlayed in Sansa’s favor if she plays her cards correctly.
Crabber’s Son,
That was just some guy predicting what would happen in a predictions thread.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Oh i read it as major spoilers dont read unless you want to know ep 510 final scene
Possibile scenarios in order of most likely to least likely (in my personal opinion)…
1. Sansa stays in the Vale
2. Sansa leaves the Vale but does not go to Winterfell
3. Sansa goes to Winterfell for reasons that do not include her marrying Ramsay.
4. Sansa develops wings, lasers for eyes and a taste for human flesh. Hodor manages to talk her out of devouring everyone alive.
5. The books finish before the show.
6. Sansa marries Ramsay
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Jaime won’t make it back from Dorne.
Of the Night,
Indeed.
King Tommen,
The guy didn’t mention or link a source but it does seem that the mods/Sue added spoiler tags to his post. So who knows.
Crabber’s Son,
Dany was the khaleesi of the Dothraki. Sansa is not the Lady of the Vale. She also hasn’t got dragons. She can use “soft power” to influence people and play politics, but she doesn’t have authority to send armies anywhere on her own – she could only try to influence others to decide to do so.
Greenjones,
If nothing else, the information matches up entirely with things that we know to be true so it passes the smell test.
Doesn’t mean it’s true (someone may be just using the known info to come up with a plausible series of events) but I can in no way refute it.
Plus it’s awesome so I kind of want it to be true.
Pigeon,
Yes he will.
So if those hardhome rumors are true and Rattleshirt is selling slaves so does that mean Mance wont be glamoured and most likely die?
Or he could be burnt.
I wondered this last season, during her run in with Arya and Sandor, does Brienne really think she can simply “rescue” either Stark girl? She was called out on having a Lannister sword. Not exactly something that would instill confidence in Arya. She swore an oath to Catelyn but is searching on behalf of Jaime. Add to that, her being in KL during the wedding (which kind of screwed her story line). Sansa may never have spoken with her but she had to know she showed up with Jaime in tow. Why would Sansa agree to any type of rescue by what is essentially a Lannister hired sword? We know Briennes’ intent is pure, but Arya didn’t once the flashy red sword belt and lion’s head pommel where pointed out. Sansa may be foolish at times but she isn’t an idiot. We may want a Sansa rescue from the claws of LF but if looking at it from her POV, Brienne would be one of the last people she would trust at this point.
I think Brienne will end up at the
to hide out/plan her next move, come end of season.
Yeah, the fangirl in me is coming out but I totally expect some epic badassness from the wanna-be Knight and the Fuck Your Sers. We all know
and who else would know where Arya possibly disappeared to? Remember, Arya told him she has friends there. Something/someone has to bring Arya back from Bravvos eventually. And Sansa, well she isn’t really a damsel but she needs someone she can trust. She has no one but a “dog will die for you, but never lie to you…”
Yeah…I’m fan-girling hard.
Yeah that seems possible, be nice to have those Northern guys Stannis goes and rallies tho…. also I hope they dont kill off Roy Bland itd be such a waste of an actor considering what screentime he had.
Of the Night,
So your saying there is a chance she will marry ramsay? See guys I knew it!
All of the above. We can’t assume any of these random leaked summaries are legit because most of them are vague or conveniently based on things seen after filming (like Brienne and Pod spotted filming) but for the sake of carefulness, people need to label that stuff. No one is expecting potentially massive season-ruining spoilers under those spoiler bars. So in the interest of consideration, if people are posting that stuff, indicate it. Even book readers like to be surprised, let’s not ruin the season for everyone.
And us adding spoiler code to something is NOT us verifying that information. We’re just being cautious.
Which plus $5 gets you a cup of coffee: being Khaleesi means little and less to the Dothraki. (Moreover, as Sansa might well end up betrothed to her cousin, she will have an analog.) At any rate, there are more ways than one to skin most cats: and how Sansa ascends will not be identical to how Daeny ascends. The parallel will be in the ascent.
We do need to keep story in mind, too. Jon will be
Daeny will be attempting to be Ruling Queen. Cersei also will be attempting to be Ruling Queen. Jaime (probably) will be
. Brienne looks like she will be forced into a position of leadership. The only lead characters not doing something like this will be reinventing themselves in other ways. Look for Sansa’s reinvention to be another of attempted leadership.
Sue the Fury,
Alright, I just thought that you’d seen that post by ers on facebook or something. I think it may have just been spec on his part. Hopefully he drops by again and clarifies what exactly it was.
The summaries from July are one hundred percent legit btw. They predicted word-for-word lines that ended up in the trailer more than six months later (the “good luck finding him” and “who said anything about him” exchange), as well as the serpent-in-a-box-with-Lannister-necklace-around-it thing. I didn’t believe them at the time but the trailer confirmed them. There is no way someone could guess that well, especially given that those lines and that serpent-necklace thing isn’t in the books.
ers,
Based on what we know of 508 so far, this actually sounds like an exceedingly plausible scenario. If this is allegedly leaked information, I for one would be very interested to know where you originally found it. But even if it’s only speculation, it’s still intriguing.
Even though season 5 is only a little more then a month away it is this period that the wait seems longest.
Can we have another trailer plllllease???
ers,
Wow….
That would be pretty badass!
ers,
If true, then perhaps that provides some hints about the fallout of “For the Watch.” (Or it could just be that the character is expendable.)
Wimsey,
Could be that exact scenario except at CB.
ers,
Wow, that sounds intense, we already knew about
Ironborn,
Also ers hasn’t clarified if that was spec. or a claim to having show info. It was a mod’s edit that made it say it was based on “leaked info”.
Greenjones,
I tend to think that the additional stuff that’s in the next post which includes Arya’s 1st scene, Tyrion/Varys at Illyrio’s, Brienne/Pod running from the Vale guards where they imply an earlier scene with the Sansa/LF encounter, a short scene where Jon is elected LC and Cersei and Jaime getting the Martell viper box is all part of the 1st episode summary.
That would mean we’d get every character storyline in the premiere except for Winterfell which would be more like previous seasons.
I know on someone else’s listing of the additional info, they make the assumption that the new stuff is from E2 or E3 but that just seems to come out of the fact that they haven’t seen the original Sansa/Brienne scene so the guess is that it’s from an earlier episode. In reality, that scene could be earlier in E1 and the info was just never included in the summary (you can tell we’re missing some scenes in the summary).
King Tommen,
Yeah it’s definitely not enough to the complete episode one summary. The information for both of the facebook summaries is partial at best.
I DO think the leaker (if they’re the same guy on both summaries) did get some info at least about 502 though. I think the box with the serpent and necklace is 502 material, for instance, because Cersei waking up, the investigation in the Red Keep of what went down through to the funeral sounds like enough KL for 501. I think Dorne will be intro’d in 502 too, so it would make more sense for the scene where Cersei sends Jaime there to be in that ep. too.
Strange that neither facebook summary mentioned anything about what’s going on with the Boltons and Reek… Also, I really doubt that the premiere will end with Jon promising to negotiate with Mance. That seems like an underwhelming ending compared to the first scene in the HOBAW or something like that.
Greenjones,
Greenjones,
Oh, fine. Thanks for clarifying that.
I’d disagree, if you read it all there are gaps with the E1 info. I think what he’s got there is E3. Look at the NW stuff.
ctid,
If the Stephen Dillane and Liam Cunningham IMDB info is to be believed then the Wall won’t be in 503. It’s a fair guess to say that that material may be spread over 501 and 502 though, yeah.
Fair point, Ill have to re-read it now.
Weird, why did my gravatar drop off? Retrying.
Ok this will work.
While it sounds very D&D, and Tormund having an epic fighting death the season sounds absolutely plausible, I don’t like the sound of this “leak” at first read. Isn’t this a bit early for a Jon vs Others showdown of this kind of proportion? Back on slavery as evil theme again? How is this going to lead to “for the watch” if Jon is proving his leadership up at Hardhome in battle- just general conflict with Jon supporting the wildlings/trying to fight evil forces rather than listening to the stale NW leadership? It sounds like a crazy awesome battle and would fit with what we know about intensity/duration of the Hardhome shoot, but I’m not sure I like the flavor. And how does Stannis fit in/how does this lead to battle of Winterfell? Can someone clarify for me?
Zombie Brienne! 😉
King Tommen,
Question, are we sure that it’s Mance on the pyre in the trailer? Did anyone see the face clearly? Could it just be burning random bodies after the battle to keep them from coming back, or Melisandre making a sacrifice with someone else?
Did he? I didn’t see that – can you post a link if it’s no trouble?
jentario,
I agree it might happen like that, but King Tommen’s idea is just so great that I hope it happens, mostly for the sake of the characterization of Stannis in the show. He’s much more of a skeptic in the books. In the show he’s been entranced by Melisandre since she showed him a Battle in the Snow in the fires, after the Battle of the Blackwater. I’m 99% sure that’s a deliberate choice by the showrunners: since they decided to make Stannis a POV character, they had to give him a personal arc. I hope it involves becoming more of a skeptic of Mel’s intentions and the source of her powers (that she has powers is beyond a doubt, but the other stuff is in question.)
Jaime’s girl,
The shot of a person burning on a pyre is not the one we are talking about. That seems to be the Night’s Watch honoring someone who died.
Here, a spoilery picture with all the named characters we know on it:
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/5959/gkFWIi.png
Jaime’s girl,
http://imageshack.com/a/img538/4729/LZvowL.png
BTW, I’m 100% sure that Brienne says “all the good Lords are dead”, not “The good Lord’s dead.”
I just hope hbo doesn’t pull a “breaking bad s5” on us. Seriously where’s the second trailer?? This is killing me!
ers,
Wow – that is awesome. In a way, I wish that I hadn’t read it.
Jaime’s girl,
Jofrey’s Cunt,
They usually release them on Sundays, so hopefully we’ll get our second trailer this Sunday. I need it badly…
Balerion The Cat,
Let’s all pray to the old gods, the seven, and the lord of light!
https://twitter.com/loubgray/status/566265456978587648
No way! D&D hate Stannis! It is known! #annoyingbookpurist
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Call her by her name. Call her Brienne.
Her name’s Brienne. Not Brianne.
Balerion The Cat,
Nah it won’t be this Sunday, more like March 8th or 15th.
Ozymandias,
About a month before release. Makes sense.
The second trailer scene is showing someone lying down in a pyre burning, but the identity of the person is obscured. But their arms are folded on their chest and they look to be pretty dead. This mirrors most of the NW burial scenes we’ve seen already. Some have speculated that this could be Aemon or maybe Thorne. But it’s definitely a a different scene than the Mance scene shown before.
Thank you! Looks like he just said the Blackfish is alive rather than he is returning though? (I can’t see the interview itself)
On a side note, that is one of the most random, obscure magazines I have ever seen…
Not really. She had her own bloodriders and handmaidens – a few people, but those are the ones who have stayed with her. Her bloodriders were loyal to her when Drogo’s bloodriders turned against her, and fought to save her, even though they were not ready to swear allegiance to her when she asked, because she’s a woman… until she hatched the dragons.
But she’s not going to be there halfway through season 5, which is what the idea that she’ll be sending armies somewhere is based on. She could convince, influence, manipulate the Vale lords into sending armies somewhere, convincing them that it’s in their best interest, that it’s honorable, that they’d get their revenge for Jon Arryn on the Lannisters, whatever – but she’s not a ruler or a regent or even a part of the ruling house and has no authority to order any armies on her own, and least not yet.
That certainly makes much more sense. Brienne would never refer to Renly as “lord” instead of “king”.
Luka Nieto,
OR they could use
dee,
We can see him in the trailer. He has no mask.
oh no
not this samsa talk again!!!
Friendly reminder that GOT director Alex Graves is a massive tool.
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2xcjk1/spoilers_all_roundup_of_weird_comments_by_alex/
Turncloak,
Not again….I’m not a fan of him but let’s move on.
Turncloak,
I was wondering why the makeup for the CotF was total shite, now we all know.
As for Sandor loves Arya, to me it’s more of a li’l sis he never had.
Turncloak,
Graves didn’t say that the Hound or Tormund were in love with Arya and Ygritte. He said they loved them. Which they did. He wasn’t talking about romantic love. Just love. Is that so hard to grasp?
Also, how are budget limitations in any way his fault? They asked for more money, and HBO did give it to them. How is this in any way wrong or controversial? Why is it in that list? What am I missing?
Also, he’s a director, not a writer. He doesn’t have to know the detailed background of the characters. There’s no problem with him thinking Tysha is dead, or that for some reason Tyrion knew the Red Keep since he was a child. And anyway, he might not have “grown up” there, but he’s spent many years living in the capital.
So… what’s the problem? I must ask, because I truly don’t see it.
Luka Nieto,
This.
http://www.hbo.com/#/schedule
Ep. 502 is 56 minutes long.
Contains adult content, adult language, violence.
(How to find it: look up “game of thrones” in the search schedule searchbar and then scroll to the bottom).
@tyjon:
Sandor actually had a little sister in the books. She was mentioned in one of Ned Starks chapters.
Greenjones,
Sweet. We should have the name of the premiere this Sunday too!
Balerion The Cat,
Really? That’d be great!
Speculation based on episode titles is one of my favorite pass-times between seasons. The titles also clear up the placement of certain events (i.e. “Mockingbird”, “The Lion and the Rose”, “The Mountain and the Viper”, “The Watchers on the Wall”, just to name a few.)
tyjon,
Yeah, there was some pretty cool concept art of the CotF. The actress also did prosthetic makeup tests, but they opted for a more human look. I watched some of the season 4 bonus material yesterday, and they digitally altered her face in post-production as well for whatever reasons.
Also guys, we had character posters by now last year, so I would expect something this weekend.
No, nothing has been confirmed at all. The fact of the matter remains is that we really have no idea whatsoever whether
, however a lot of the non-sullied and some of the sullied have an
which is rather annoying.
We do know however that in the first trailer released for Season 5, that Brienne and Pod end up back in the Riverlands, as we see them on horseback riding past an inn or barn. There was also
Luka Nieto,
Yes, I love all the speculation too, this season will be even more exciting (I’m expecting some interesting episode titles).
Now, if only we could get an announcement from HBO that the second trailer will air this Sunday. Last year they always announced it on Friday, so if we don’t get anything today there’ll probably be no new trailer this week.
Luka Nieto,
Thank you Luka and King Tommen, this clarifies everything 🙂
I was wondering how such conclusions were coming out of that one shot but I was missing the other 🙂 thanks!
Jaime’s girl,
I have no idea.
I remember watching an audition tape of Octavia last year at this time, which was wonderfully eerie and odd. I thought they were going to really explore the disturbingly eccentric/ageless qualities of the CotF but, alas, I was very disappointed in the final result. So much potential there…it was fairly obvious that it was not a priority for the show (or it was misunderstood).
Rygar,
I saw Kanye too. He was interrupting the wedding of Margery and Tommen to tell them who the “real” king should be…
Can we make this a reality, and then have Ser Robert Strong crush him?
Luka Nieto,
Jaime’s girl,
Carne,
By this time last year we had 2 trailers and one 15-minute long video with massive footage. This year they really put a brake on the footage they’re willing to show. I don’t know if I like it or not, maybe when season starts I’ll be glad they did this.
Doran’s Gouty Foot,
How did he survive?
Gwendoline Christie’s unsubtle hint at a certain scene:
“Sometimes the producers just dangle hints above your head like a noose”.
Christian,
What happened, did BIG brother assault her? I could see that happening.
Therefore Arya perhaps reminds him of her.
mariamb,
I know it is “tradition” during pre-season, but I greatly dislike leaks like this. I don’t respect the unethical, dumpster-diving maggot that leaked it/stole it/paid for it, nor the automatic “acceptance” of this shit without proof. I’m glad for the articulated wariness from the WotW folk. I’m sure we’ll get more subversive leaks like this in the coming weeks.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I won’t believe it until I see it. But I don’t find it unlikely.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I agree!
Although if that leak is true I will have goosebumps watching it but I wish I wasn’t spoiled like that.
I don’t mind reading people’s theorycrafting, and if some of it comes true, good for them that they figured it out.
However, to just coming out and tell us what is going to happen kinda sucks because now that thrill of seeing it live for the first time is ruined.
On the flip side, if it was a true leak then this is a good sign we are in store for some amazing scenes.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Agree. As I said, I wish that I had not seen it but I’m a spoiler-junkie.
Humphrey,
Will you link to where you saw that Gwen Christie quote, please? I’d love to see it.
mariamb,
The only reason people ever believed that was because they mixed up the reddit poster who said that (a poster with only one post to his name called littlebirdieknows) with one who had previously given legitimate scoops (RhaegarShmaegar).
Arthur,
Hey, snowman from Conn! I doubt anything will ruin GoT for me as I wait for more canon, especially since I sort of enjoy rewatches/rereads better! I just dislike the proud traitors that are out there.
mariamb,
I am intrigued, and I can even see that happening in TWoW, but I honestly have no idea. Crazy, gut-wrenching season it will be!
I did a Google search for the quote and found it came up on a Walking Dead forum. The poster said Gwendoline said it on a talk show:
http://www.walkingdeadforums.com/forum/f71/game-thrones-2869-198.html#post4177002
There seems to be something wrong with the comment section (I press ‘post comment’ but the comment doesn’t get published), I’ll try again:
So the GoT official facebook page has just released the HQ version of the Jon vision, there is also a link in there for the other vision: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152775013922734
Brienne: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOuAw8Sd-k
Balerion The Cat,
They’re also both on their youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOuAw8Sd-k
EDIT: Ah, I see you’ve added it in the meantime. Sorry to double up on the links there.
Balerion The Cat,
If it doesn’t get published, it’s probably held in moderation. Usually that happens when you’re posting a link, it may get caught in the spam filter. Be patient and don’t keep reposting when that happens.
tyjon,
A hang over from the previous thread, but if it’s still bugging you, you might be thinking of the singer from Adam and the Ants (Adam Ant in fact) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_the_Wild_Frontier
EDIT better examples:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=adam+ant&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=YbTwVKn5C8itafjmgcAC&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1212&bih=706
Starts singing “staaaaand and deliver…..S5 of GoT NOW please!” Duran Duran did briefly wear those jackets too. You got early 80s UK pop queries, I’m your girl :O)
Sue the Fury,
Sorry, it was just that when it gets caught in the spam filters I can usually still see it with a, “awaiting moderation” title, so I thought that maybe the site had a hiccup or something and I wanted to see if I try again it gets posted, and it did. 🙂 (I did wait a few minutes before posting again though)
Greenjones,
No problem, off question, but how do you embed youtube videos in comments?
Luka Nieto,
Oooh I like this idea. The one true King indeed, time for Stannis to take the reins.
mariamb,
Greenjones,
Except for the show!Thenn sympathy implied in the speech, the Jon and Mance verbal sparring scenes are some of the great moments of GoT! What word does Jon say after “Thenns and …” though?
Why is everyone hating on Alex Graves in that Reddit thread? Who cares what he says in the commentary, 5 out of 6 of his episodes have been fantastic (and even the odd one out – Breaker of chains – isn’t bad at all, I just don’t count it on the same level as his other 5 episodes which all feature in my top 10 GoT episodes).
So … Leonard Nimoy :/
Hodor’s Bastard,
Hornfoots.
Turncloak,
Just a reminder that this guy directed ‘Kissed By Fire’,’And Now His Watch Is Ended’, and ‘The Lion And The Rose’. All three are near the top of my best episodes list. ‘The Children’ is also much better than people give it credit for. Obviously, the sept scene in ‘Breaker Of Chains’ soured people’s opinion of him, and the COTF and Bloodraven were very underwhelming, but that is not his fault. Neither was excluding Tysha. He was overworked having 4 episodes last season, and I think it showed in a few of his scenes. I hope he gets another shot at doing 2 episodes in a season.
Archmaester,
I don’t understand it either. “Kissed By Fire” is one of the greatest GoT episodes, imho. In S4, he was obviously overworked and perhaps misinterpreted some canon events/characters, but I’m thankful for his contributions to the cause.
Greenjones,
Thanks!
Lulu’s Mum,
That’s the dude, thx mom of lulu.
Archmaester,
I kind of agree with you and others, I mean it’s not ideal that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about ASOIAF-wise but his episodes have been good in my eyes. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Gwendoline Christie both had great things to say about how he handled the difficult bathtub scene in season 3. I don’t really care if he’s clueless as long as he produces well-directed material.
RIP! ;( Leonard (Spock) Nimoy. To bad the past Kings of Westeros nor the future Queen, never had or will have the opportunity to have your counsel as an adviser. The Seven Kingdoms would be a better place.
It’s like losing an extended family member.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Yep, and even when overworked in Season 4 three of the episodes are great. I’ve just reached The Mountain and The Viper on my rewatch and there are so many great moments. I hope he returns for S6 too – my dreamteam would be Alex Graves x 2, Neil Marshall x 1 (assuming there’s a major battle to give him…), Alik Sakharov x 2, David Nutter x 2, and possibly Michelle MaClaren or a return for some of the new directors from Season 5 if they do well.
tyjon,
A day of mourning, indeed. 🙁
Archmaester,
A dream team indeed! NM for the 2-episode Battle of Meereen! 🙂
Archmaester,
01 : Timothy Van Patten
02 : Timothy Van Patten
03 : Alik Sakharov
04 : Alik Sakharov
05 : Michelle MacLaren
06 : David Nutter
07 : David Nutter
08 : Alan Taylor
09 : Neil Marshall
10 : Alan Taylor
That’s the real GoT dream team so far, even though I think that Slovis (Breaking Bad), Mylod (Shameless US) and Podeswa (Boardwalk Empire) will be terrific directors. I’m not so sure about Sapochnik, I don’t know his work.
Leonard Nimoy was one of those icons you’d think would always be around and live forever.
God, my childhood and teen years are disappearing fast.
Ozymandias,
Forgot about TVP and Alan Taylor! I somehow doubt they’ll be coming back at this stage though, unfortunately.
I do like Michael Slovis’ work on Breaking Bad and Jeremy Pedeswa’s on Boardwalk Empire, so I have high hopes for their episodes this season. I haven’t seen the US Shameless but I loved the UK version (untill the last couple of seasons at least).
Alex Graves is an extremely accomplished television director. He’s also directed some of the best episodes of GoT. People crapping over him or calling him a hack don’t have much of a clue.
King Tommen,
Exactly. And sneering at him for being unfamiliar with the lore down to a tee is just silly. If you listen to any of the commentaries most of the directors say names wrong and seem to be unfamiliar with much of the history, locations etc. That’s why there’s writers, producers and script supervisors though! Directors don’t go in alone. They have a lot of shit to take care of, whilst others tend to other aspects of the production.
King Tommen,
Greenjones,
And speak of the devil those fucking hacks over at the what used to be WIC have an article out rehashing that ASOIAF reddit article pissing on Graves.
I have high hopes for Sapochnik, particularly because he’s doing Hardhome. Based on his previous action work (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd_UNW8uw1A) (NSFW) I think that part at least will be good.
Book purists hate him because he told the truth. LSH is lame and stupid plot twist and it would be humiliating for Michelle Fairley to play that pointless and nonsensical “character”.
And every time book purist hate something in the show it means it was great television. They do not understand how television works and have no shred of reason nor objectivity .
Fuck them .
They unjustifiably criticized hardworking and talented people who made this show , while they worshiped fat lazy ass. And he betrayed them. Poetic justice.
Alex Graves has directed so many of the best scenes on the show, with so many superb visual flourishes.
-“Dracarys” for Pete’s sake
-The way the camera goes back through the wooden X to reveal Ramsay for who he actually is
-Jaime and Brienne’s bath
-Hound Vs Beric
-“Lannister Family Christmas” in 3×05, as coined by Cogman
-Joffrey and Margaery’s wedding, which was almost its own episode
-My personal favorite: The windswept meeting of the Boltons on the battlefield.
-The camera motion along Aemon and the Wall as he delivers the eulogy in the Castle Black courtyard
-Brienne and the Hound
Graves is probably the show’s best director, and just because the Sept of Baelor scene was botched (and it was botched) is not near enough for that title to be forfeited to Nutter or MacLaren or Marshall.
Eager to see what the four new directors bring to the table in Season 5, and hope Graves enjoys his break and comes back swinging in Season 6.
Andrew,
Graves had the best material by far…..he’s not in the top 5 best directors.
Andrew,
Well said.
Andrew,
As others have said, he has directed some of my favorite episodes. Yes, the sept scene was poorly executed and the commentary after it didn’t help. I prefer to judge him on his body of work on GOT which I think has been quite good.
Ozymandias,
Yes, he had great material. But he DELIVERED.
Andrew,
To add a few other really well directed scenes by graves:
– Varys and Tyrion conversation in 3×04
– Sansas and Dontos escape in 4×03 (the camerawork and the music as they run through the streets)
– The tracking shot at the beginning of 4×08
– Littlefingers trial
I think we all hated the sept scene, agreed. I’m guessing D&D are not blameless in that either.
Ok edit..
we all hated how the sept scene turned out compared to the book version. I do have to defend Jaime’s honor a bit here. But the scene itself wasn’t badly shot, I just think the material was altered in a way I don’t agree with.
Here is the poster for this season: https://twitter.com/GameOfThrones/status/571416110983196672
looks like we finally have a new poster (see Facebook GoT page)… it’s kind of meh :/
They can’t be serious. A poster about a moment in S4 with a photoshop’ed in Drogon from an actual S4 shot? If this is the actual poster for the season, it’ll be the worst thing this show has ever done. It’s atrocious.
Archmaester,
I agree with this, and with all of the people who are stepping up to defend Alex Graves. He’s an exceptionally talented director, and he’s done excellent work on Game of Thrones. Five of the six episodes that he’s directed (“And Now His Watch Is Ended”, “Kissed by Fire”, “The Lion and the Rose” “The Mountain and the Viper”, and “The Children”) would be in my top 10 episodes of the show overall as well. And I have a higher opinion of “Breaker of Chains” than most. Yes, that one scene wasn’t handled well, but unfortunately the debate over that particular issue has grown intense enough so as to overshadow the rest of the episode, which I thought was both well-written and well-shot (Tywin’s speech to Tommen about what it means to be a good king – which oddly enough immediately precedes the divisive scene – is one of my favorite scenes in the entire series, and well-directed to boot).
Yes, Graves had great material to work with in his episodes, but for the most part he took that material and used it to create a great visual product – which really is all that I care about. I really don’t care what he said on the DVD commentary or in some interview – most people don’t watch or read that stuff. I don’t give a crap that he hasn’t read the books – most directors (and actors) working on the show haven’t either, and it hasn’t negatively affected their work. I don’t care that Graves has ideas about certain characters that some people think are misconstrued – those ideas didn’t negatively affect the episodes that he worked on in any way. I’m a bit more sympathetic to concerns about how he may have influenced or handled the budget for the wight/COTF/Bloodraven scene, but that’s not sufficient reason in my eyes to hope that he doesn’t ever return to the series.
As for the idea that Graves was burnt out by the end of Season 4 – I can’t blame him! I think that it’s obvious at this point that, given how intensive and all-consuming the production schedule is, directing four episodes of Game of Thrones in a single season is probably too much for one person to handle. Alan Taylor needed a break after directing four episodes of Season 2 (to be fair, his work on Game of Thrones also gave him the opportunity to direct movies, which is why he hasn’t returned to the series). Clearly Graves did as well. I think that Benioff and Weiss have learned that particular lesson (and I’d like to applaud their own indefatigable commitment when it comes to the herculean task of making this series as great as it is. I don’t think that gets enough credit). One of the many reasons I’m so excited for Season 5 is that they’ve lined up five strong directors to handle two consecutive episodes apiece, which should provide a nice balance between consistent visual style and individual directorial flair without overtaxing anyone. Should Alex Graves be open to returning to Game of Thrones for Season 6, I hope that Benioff and Weiss invite him back to direct one or two episodes. I have ample reason to expect that he’d do a great job.
James,
It looks pretty good on the Twitter/Facebook accounts but on its own? meh
Jared,
All of this…. well said!
TorbofThrones,
I was expecting worse having read your comment… it’s not great but i don’t think it’s too bad either. Not sure how it will look as a blu ray cover though.
Archmaester,
http://i.imgur.com/lJ0DGdm.png
OrtMeyer,
Hmm it looks ok actually. Viewing all 5 side by side shows how strong seasons 1 and 2 (especially 1) are compared to the rest. They should have kept a season 1 style border for each one.
I’m gonna go ahead and be the odd woman out here – I really like it. Actually surprised by the spoiler – ish quality of it.
It seems with season 2 they had a spark of colour and then decided to revert to ‘greyscale’ (Hahahahahahahahahaha! *sigh*) again.
Yeah, this hip Graves hate is… well… hip. Let’s hate an obviously great director who was behind some of the best GoT episodes (and most iconic scenes/moments) thus far because of the infamous sept scene and the fact he doesn’t know the nanoscopic minutia of character lore.
From what I read, he actually takes extra care to familiarize himself with book material and was very inquisitive with D&D on how certain arcs will be progressing. I am willing to bet that he’s actually among the best-versed directors on the show where lore and backstory are concerned.
Just a thought but does anyone in the Watch besides Jon Snow know what Mance looks like? They could just claim Rattleshirt or someone is him and have them *ahem* dealt with, instead?
Be interesting to see if Mance goes to cause havoc at WF or replaces the leader of the Hill Clans….or just meets his apparent ‘fate’ for real.
The book version was told from Jaime’s point of view. Just like Jeyne Westerling’s hips, it is subjective and not objective. What Jaime perceived and what we saw could easily be the same thing. What they showed is more or less what I assumed really happened when I read the book. (But, then, I assumed that Jaime described Jeyne Westerling as thin because Jaime’s subjective standards for beauty are based on a middle-aged woman who is putting on weight and who’s hips have passed three kids.)
Similarly, I think that Graves gets criticism for the “fireball” scenes. People never ask: how else were the wights supposed to be lit on fire? The book implies it was just a torch, but that was bad writing by GRRM. Shove a torch onto a frozen corpse and the torch goes out. Burning bodies is actually really hard: and more so when they are filled with frozen water. Pouring oil or another accelerant is an option. Or, just use magic. After all, magic exists in Westeros. And that is much, much less silly looking than corpses suddenly bursting into flame once a torch touches them. (Indeed, I sometimes think that a lot of fantasy fans wonder whey Oberyn didn’t burst into flame when he passed his hands over a candle!)
Ah, I once heard Nimoy talk about the reception he would get when he visited research centers, as he was a patron of the sciences. Scientists would talk to him in elaborate detail about their projects, and he would just nod sagely and say “This seems fascinating: keep up the good work!”
Once Nimoy noticed that his guide just could stop from chuckling. Afterwards, Nimoy asked why. The guide told him that the scientists spoke to most of the rich donors who came through like they were not-particularly-bright children: but they spoke to Nimoy not just like he (Nimoy) was a colleague, but a senior colleague that they wanted to impress! As a scientist myself, I can totally believe that story.
Annara Snow,
Right, except everyone in power in the Vale knows who she is, and she’s already showing manipulation skills. Doesn’t mean it will happen, doesn’t mean it won’t. And I still like the idea.
Jessie_Snow,
Only three nobles know who she is and they promised to keep it to themselves.
Do people hate the sept rape because after season one’s horrible act crippling a child, they now like Jaime and want to forget that he’s THAT person? He did a horrible thing FOR Cersei. Then as he is revealed to be a better person than it seemed at first, while she becomes worse… He does a horrible thing TO her. How is that bad storytelling? Dude pushed a child out of a window.
And to all you academics, it’s “whose.”
Bongo,
That’s a simplistic reduction of many people’s explanation of their feelings on the subject. For many, the issue is not having Jaime commit rape but the fact that the show’s writers, producers and director did not seem to realize they WERE depicting a rape. That was the source of much of the controversy- the comments from GoT staff.
Another issue for some is that the relationship between Jaime and Cersei is one of the few major consensual relationships in the series. Creepy and incestuous, okay, but at least they chose each other.
Jaime may be a knight, a soldier, someone who kills, but that doesn’t necessarily make him a rapist. Morality isn’t black and white that way. Just because he’ll push Bran out the window to protect Cersei doesn’t mean he’ll rape the woman he loves.
Sue the Fury,
Very much agreed. For my own sanity, in my mind the scenes ends after Jaime says the “hateful woman” thing and grabs her.
Sue the Fury,
Those are my same feelings on the issue. And I usually couple those with Cersei’s unrealistic reaction to her rape, should we go with the rape theory vs the involuntary depiction of one, in the next episodes. Stands up to Tywin, tells him the truth about her and Jaime and says no to her being married to Loras and shipped off away from King’s Landing, then goes to the KG room and tells him that she chooses him, loves him. Which makes it clear to me, that it was a big screw up all around.
Sue the Fury,
As awful as the subject matter was, the scene played out fine for me. Without a Cersei PoV, we just don’t know what was going through her mind. How do you think it should have played out…with Cersei happily, unhesitatingly and ceremoniously fucking Jaime next to her son’s corpse? Jaime is not on a redemptive arc, as so many seem to hope for. Just like the Talisa-effect of the RW (and the Craster’s Keep over-the-top nonsense), the showrunners seemed to want more brutality played out onscreen.
Where the show failed was not in that scene but in the follow-up scenes that had Jaime and Cersei being somewhat amicable and close. That sept scene should have been a pivotal point in their relationship, sending it cascading downward. Even in the books, their relationship was dead after that scene (for many reasons). It was a desperate, destructive act that should have had severe consequences on the show but unfortunately any key physical and mental ramification of the sept scene was glossed over…much like the massively destructive banter between Jaime and Tyrion that SHOULD have happened before Tywin’s murder. For all the show’s impact and magnitude, it grossly misses some very key elements.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I am not sure that the show actually misses the point but more like modifies the point/key element. For example they left the
To me it looks like they don’t go in the same direction at this point with Jaime, as the books go. I wonder if anyone else feels like I do.
Tormund’s Woman,
I loved that Jaime helped save Tyrion while they both detested and derided each other. What a crazy, disturbing scenario!!!! I’m glad you found some positives in their last few moments, but I honestly had trouble with it. Jaime was part of Tyrion’s spiraling madness! If they survive and hug when Tyrion comes back to Westeros, I will vomit. 🙂
Also, something that gets forgotten is that in the book, Cersei is protesting most of the time. Jaime is only dimly aware of her hitting him, saying that someone will walk in on them, the gods will disapprove, etc. Jaime just blocks it out (according to the book!) Again, this is why the subjective narrative is so important to remember: what Jaime perceives and what actually happens are two different things. But that’s key: if Cersei is actually striking Jaime and telling him to stop, then what should it look like to a 3rd party? (That would be us!)
That is why I bring up the Jeyne Westerling issue above. Although it is a very different example, it is nevertheless another example of a subjective viewpoint that differs from another subjective viewpoint or from absolute “truth.”
Hodor’s Bastard,
I won’t.
Still, I doubt that your fear will come true. The original outline for the plot suggests that GRRM always had something big in mind where this was concerned. You can change a lot of the plot without affecting the story: but, to borrow a phrase from Doctor Who, there are some small number of “fixed points” in the plot that are critical to the story. Interestingly, this could one of them: although the circumstances leading up to the split changed, the split was retained. (This is definitely one case where I feel that the revisions didn’t lead up to the point as well as the original version probably did.) Still,
Tormund’s Woman,
Women stay with or go back to abusive lovers all the time, I don’t find it so hard to believe in this case.
But didn’t Benioff say that Jaime forced himself on Cersei somewhere? I know what Alex Graves said, but I’m not sure he’s on the same page as D&D in this case. Which raises a bunch of other questions I suppose. Graves’ comments were definitely cringeworthy in any case.
Yivo,
The point is that relationship, however unorthodox, was never sexually abusive until the sept scene (if we stick with rape). That rape should have had some traumatic consequence in the victim, realistically speaking (shock, dismay, whatever). Cersei displayed none, not even a confrontation on the subject with Jaime. I prefer big screw up. It is fortunate for you not to see anything amiss. I wish I could say the same.
Tormund’s Woman,
Well, she seemed very cold towards him next episode to me anyway, even more so than before, which seems unlikely if they just had consensual sex. Just because there is no confrontation doesn’t mean it didn’t bother her. In Episode 5 we got the line “everywhere in the world they hurt little girls”, which immediately made me think of the sept scene.
I do get what your saying though, and I don’t think it was handled brilliantly or anything.
And it’s not like the show has a good track record with such things either. Did we ever get a scene with Dany responding to the fact that she was raped repeatedly by Drogo? I don’t believe so, and I also don’t recall too many criticisms of that story line either.
Wimsey,
Interesting. Honestly, I expected an emotional turn of events between Tyron and Jaime to occur during the “Orson beetles” scene in S4ep8, not for it to be a buddy-buddy moment. I expected the beetles story to morph into a “remember this great lie between us” sequence where Jaime admits to a horrible lie in their past…similar to how the RV revealed the “monster baby” story when he championed Tyrion…only this time Tyrion is hurt and unraveled by Jaime’s reveal. Then when Jaime comes to “save” Tyrion…possibly out of regret….the departure is bitter and tortuous, leading to the murderous deviation from Varys and Jaime’s plan.
But it didn’t happen that way onscreen and I scratched my head and accepted it. Hence, we will never get another great, oft-repeated, ASoI&F phrase from ADwD: “Wherever whores go” in its true inebriated glory…for better or worse. 🙂
One thing I will not miss about the Tysha omission is “wherever whores go.” I tend to be one who focuses on what I enjoy about a book, and don’t get too caught up in things I don’t like, but “wherever whores go” started to bug me.
Also, while I was expecting the Tysha moment (like most book readers), those I’ve seen argue it’s strips Tyrion of his motivation to kill Tywin, well, I think there was plenty of other motivation, and the Unsullied I know were not sitting there wondering, “why did Tyrion kill Tywin.” They seemed to feel he had ample motivation.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
You have to wonder if the showrunners will give homage to that overused phrase this season, as well as “words are wind…”. I always refer to this great essay when thinking about the seemingly intentional overuse of those phrases by GRRM in ADwD. Perhaps they were repeated to exemplify the “stuck in neutral” existence of various characters…or it could have been a commentary of GRRM’s state of mind while trying to cobble together that gloriously meandering tome.
Hodor’s Bastard,
It’s not only ADwD that’s guilty of this. Dunk and Egg stories are just overflowing with Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall. Martin apparently loves his repetition.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Thanks for posting that essay. It was an interesting read. I’d guess, yes, the showrunners will definitely work “words are wind” in there, somewhere, but who knows about the “whores” line. The essay did make me think about the repeated use of words or phrases, though, and I realized I don’t have a problem with phrases being repeated when it is by different characters. It makes those phrases just seem like common phrases in whatever region or country. It only starts to bother me when it’s the same character repeating a phrase over and over.
Yivo,
Always thought Cersei was cold, destroyed and hurt because of her son’s death not because of Jaime especially in light of how she stood up to Tywin. Jaime was the boy’s father but he didn’t mourn Joff as she did. He never truly cared for him and it showed. So, Cersei was pretty alone in her grief. That could make a anyone look cold and aloof.
As for the little girl bit, she’s no longer one obviously, but who knows who she had in mind… For example, I thought she was referring to Sansa! She did refer to her as little girl several times and she saw how the Stark girl was treated by her own son. She could also be referring to her own childhood. Quite interesting you brought that up.
I wasn’t around when the show Dany/Drogo was discussed. But I remember book discussions. Heated ones, about how unrealistic that whole thing was. And I agree. But this is a show thread and the incident is past gone. No use rehashing old arguments after all.
Tormund’s Woman,
Fair enough to all of this.
On that las point though: We are rehashing arguments from a year ago in talking about the sept scene though.
Yivo,
Lol you are right about that! I didn’t mean to close the discussion about the Dany/Drogo argument for you. I just meant it for me, because the book argument and heated discussions happened years ago. Plus I would not have a lot to bring to it. We are probably on the same page if I read your comment correctly about that.
Nor Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know.
Rygritte,
🙂
Moon Boy and Mushroom are not to be taken lightly! They know things.
Actually, we cannot say that: we have a sample size of 2, after all, and there were many prior years to the! The sad truth is that most of what counted for “foreplay” in such societies would count as “rape” in ours. But, then, the notion that a man could rape a woman with whom he had had prior consensual sex is a very new one that still has not taken hold over all of our societies. Remember, laws making it a crime for husbands to rape their wives were denounced as “anti-family” and also criticized because women are “supposed” to submit to their husbands, which means that the woman was truly at fault for not saying yes. And the people saying that are still alive: heck, at least one of them is currently in the US Congress!
I do not think that it would have worked on TV simply because Tysha was never on the show. Moreover, the TV series set up Tyrion’s motives very well as it was: in that scene and others, Tyrion makes it clear that he thinks that Tywin is framing Tyrion. It also was made very clear in Season 4 and before that Tyrion feels (with some justification!) that Tywin wishes that Tyrion was dead. Given how well the show (like the books!) developed Tyrion as someone who, misgivings aside, really does do his utmost for his family and who deeply craves recognition by his family members (particularly Daddy!) as a true Lannister, this level of betrayal seems motive enough. (The show also made Tyrion’s love for Shae look quite genuine: the additional betrayal of seeing her in his father’s bed was just more salt in the wound for the viewing audience.)
Of course, W. I gave up on Tysha long ago, and I do agree that Tyrion had enough motivation in the show to become a kinslayer, but I thought something would have come up between Tyrion and Jaime during that scene that would have made the situation bittersweet, or even damaging/disturbing, between them. But that was not to be and we must accept the more amicable direction they took for Jaime and Tyrion’s final moments in the show.
Actually, I can. You probably cannot. In the absence of any evidence or clue that Jamie sexually abused her for years and years before and interpreting what I’ve seen so far on screen, I believe their incestuous relationship was between two consenting adults with no sexual abuse (think innocent until proven guilty, I suppose). I personally would consider it a failure for the show writers to miss introducing this rather large piece of information to define Jamie/Cersei relationship in four seasons. They have succeeded in showing Rob/Cersei abuse just fine in half a season. But far be it from to tell you how to judge it.
Well, one big difference between the initial draft and what GRRM did was that Cersei took on many of Jaime’s egregious traits. It might be that the true “fixed point” was the fallout between Tyrion and that part of Jaime that became Cersei. After all, the original Jaime was grasping for any power that he could and eliminating everyone in the way: and that’s now Cersei, not Jaime.
So, it is possible that BYW realize that there isn’t anything between Jaime and Tyrion to belabor for the future. GRRM might have retained it as a vestige of the original draft simply because it was there from the start, even as Jaime became less and less Cersei. (Think of it as a literary appendix….)
But, again, in that sort of society this would not be considered sexual abuse because they were established lovers. That would be the basis on which Cersei would judge it. Is this “right” by our standards? Certainly not. However, I think that it is to the show’s credit that it does not shy away from how harsh life and moralities were for women in these societies. Unlike many fantasies, this is not fantastic.
(Indeed, showing what Jaime perceived might have been worse: that could come across too much like the “no means yes” protesting that too many men believe is common.)
Moreover, this keeps dodging the main point. The scene in the TV show is completely consistent with what is in the books. Cersei does say no. She does resist. She actually strikes Jaime. And Jaime basically ignores it: GRRM’s own words are that he only dimly registers that it’s happening. So, if that what Jaime dimly perceives in his frenzied lust, then what really happened? As Hodor’s Bastard and others note, we do not get Cersei’s PoV on this. We do not get a disinterested 3rd party. What is shown is as consistent with what Jaime perceives as Catelyn’s description of Jeyne Westerling’s hips is with Jaime’s description of Jeyne Westerling’s hips.
Wimsey,
Are you arguing that a woman in a society, any society wouldn’t distinguish between the action of being pinned to the ground, have her vagina penetrated forcefully while she’s resisting and consensual sex? Just because she had previously said yes and she had desired that person before? That she wouldn’t react different (hurt, frightened, betrayed or angry) simply because the societal rules and views are telling her that is ok? And I didn’t even use the modern labels (such as rape, sexual abuse etc.)
I’m not sure what to tell you, Wimsey. I think abuse feels like abuse to the victim in any society whatever the norms, whether is “accepted” or not, whether is punishable by law or not. We’ll just have to disagree on that, unless you can literally produce proof of a raped woman from 13th century for example that said she throughly enjoyed being forced to have sex against her will.
I did see you tried to steer the discussion towards the book scene, and it looks like you think it is the important thing by the way you express yourself, but I don’t see how that is relevant to be honest.
I don’t think one can justify a screwed up scene (by the cast and crew’s own admission) by looking at the book and say: hey but it was rape in the book (that’s if one thinks it was). It just doesn’t make any sense to me, since the show apparently didn’t mean to portray a rape scene! Maybe. They are not sure… Wait, they changed their mind and said it was rape… HOLD IT! They just reconfirmed it was not rape. (you see where I’m going with this hopefully 😀 )
The issue has always been whether the scene was different from the book scene. My argument is that it actually is consistent with what GRRM wrote.
As for what you write, I do not disagree with you. However, this is an issue with which human rights and women’s rights activists have been wrestling for decades. Women in “traditional” societies are taught that this is not rape and that they cannot complain about this sort of thing. Indeed, re-read (or re-watch) what Jaime does: he keeps pushing until Cersei relents. Sadly, this probably was considered “gentlemanly” behavior: keep pushing until she says yes. This probably stood in contrast with Robert simply forcing himself on her.
Something I appreciate about the way that both GRRM and the show handle these things is that they do not sugarcoat what life would be like for a woman in this sort of society. Even the “good men” view sex as a right. In a way, it is akin to looking at the attitudes of 19th century abolitionists. With only a few notable exceptions, none of them viewed Africans as equal to Europeans: they simply thought that Africans should be allowed to catch up to Europeans as free people. Why do I bring up that example? Because if you want to see how far an oppressed group (including but not limited to women) has to go to achieve equality, don’t look at how the “bad white men” hold them: look at how the “good white men” hold them. When the relatively “good guys” are still bigots and pigs, that means that there is a big uphill climb. (The show Mad Men provides some good examples of this: that is set “only” 40 years ago, yet similar behavior happens frequently on that show: because it did, and women in the 1960’s were told that this didn’t qualify as sexual abuse.)
And, of course, that’s important because one thing that all of GRRM’s protagonists have in common is that they are “lessers” in the eyes of society. Half of them are women. The men are a dwarf, a bastard and asundry physical and/or psychological cripples. By showing how cavalier people are in regards to the rights and assumed abilities of these people, it does a lot to emphasize the struggles that the individual lead characters face.
Wimsey,
Actually, I’d add one thing from the slavery angle that comes up in Dragons. (I hope it comes up on TV, but we’ll see.) Tyrion observes the same sort of thing among slaves. Well-treated slaves think that they actually have it good. They are so brain-washed by the system that they forget that they are property, not people. Tyrion (for whom even being a well-treated slave is a huge step down) recognizes just how insidious it is. Moreover, he begins to take a huge step-forward: he begins to extrapolate from that to what it is like for “small folk” in Westeros, who are not slaves, but who also are not entirely free.
But this applies to all oppressed people: such is a woman’s lot, bastards are known to be immoral, cripples are known to be stunted in all ways, etc. Because that’s what even the “good” “rich white men” teach them!
I thought there was a lot of unspoken tension in Jaime’s first visit to Tyrion in Ep. 4. Jaime’s making the usual glib comments about Tyrion’s prison cell (“at least you have a pot to piss in”), acting casual and so on, but Tyrion is in no mood to play anymore. Tyrion subtly calls Jaime out on his BS and Joffrey’s real parentage, giving the impression he’s had Jaime’s (and Cersei’s) number for a long time, maybe even from the beginning.
We see how Olenna uses her granddaughter as a “marriage prospect”. Tywin doesn’t lose any sleep bargaining Cersei. Even Ned Stark wouldn’t do anything to save Sansa from marrying Joffrey or find an alternative path for Arya. So yeah. . .female lives really aren’t worth anything, no matter how rich or honorable or well-off the family is.
This relationship is abusive on both sides. In Season 1, the few physically intimate scenes of Jaime and Cersei, Jaime is pretty rough with her. Cersei can’t control him physically, and her reactions seem half-hearted at some moments, like she doesn’t like being handled that way. Jaime abuses her physically; Cersei abuses him emotionally, using the sex as a way to keep him by her side to protect her and do her bidding. As long as she ultimately got her way, she didn’t object too much to Jaime’s being rough, regardless of how she really felt about it. So in his mind Cersei was OK with it.
In the sept scene Cersei was clearly disgusted by Jaime being maimed, and there was an implication she would sleep with him again only if Jaime killed Tyrion. What Jaime should have done is turn around and leave. But Jaime being Jaime, he wanted his own way, and since he was physically stronger he did what he wanted. And in Ep. 10, Cersei did what she wanted, manipulating him and using sex to keep him as an useful asset.
What Jaime and Cersei have isn’t romantic – it’s sick and gross, and brings out the worst in them. And this doesn’t even involve the fact that it’s incest. You can see how that worked out for the Targaryens.
What it is (particularly on Cersei’s end) is narcissistic. Basically, she views Jaime and herself as part of one person: and, man, does Cersei love herself. I do not know that it so much brings out the worst in Cersei as it is, in a way, raw unadulterated Cersei.
It probably is that way on Jaime’s end for most of his life. However, it is very possible that he is evolving away from that. As I have stated before, my opinion is that what some people have called a “redemptive arc” is really a “finding a proverbial soul” arc: and as Jaime goes from that callow individual that he was to the person that we see at the end of Crows/Dragons, it’s possible that he’ll start viewing his relationship with his sister as you describe it.
Wimsey,
I stand by what I said regarding the importance of book vs show scene. Your reasoning while sound from your perspective if you think that the script matched the book, would not influence or explain anything to the Unsullied in their interpretation of the scene.
I would have liked to respond to Tyrion’s slavery thoughts. I loved that introspect philosophical part of his in the Dance, while I have torn feelings on the matter of what he says. Maybe when the show passes that part we will debate it and see how the show treats it.
Flora Linden,
I looks to me you are describing an unhealthy relationship. That’s second door to the right from the sexual abuse one, or a non-consenting relationship.
Generally speaking, I think when cheating on one’s husband in any society, it is difficult to develop a healthy relationship with one’s lover (not impossible mind you), especially if you are living all under the same roof and have his kids pass off as your husband’s, while all the while fearing for your life that your secret comes out.
It is also difficult to keep your sanity no doubt when your husband is forcing you every once in a while to have sex with your lover next door. Or slaps you around when speaking out of turn. Or forbid your lover to never look at his kids as a father.
I took the incest out since you took it out as well. So yes, unhealthy. Still consensual and not sexually abusive as far as I’m concerned. Well… that’s until the sept scene.
Wimsey,
I agree about Cersei’s narcissism, she doesn’t like anything upsetting her perfect view of herself and her world. Getting older or becoming maimed would be no-nos in her book.
I hope Jaime decides to become more than what’s he has been, too.
Tormund’s Woman,
Thank you for your response. I avoided commenting on the sept scene the first time around because the debate got so frenzied then.
Had the sept scene involved two different people, there wouldn’t be as much debate. But with Jaime and Cersei, it’s just so much more disturbing. What Jaime did was totally wrong. Yet, given what they’ve both done to each other already, it’s not entirely surprising something like this would happen eventually.
Cersei and Jaime together just creeps me out – book and TV versions. Not only for the incest. There’s a violent, rough undertone to their relationship. Maybe not at the beginning when they were kids. But with Cersei’s ambitions/resentments and Jaime’s experiences in the Kingsguard, it morphed into something ugly over the years.
Also, neither one really makes an effort to understand the other’s POV. Jaime doesn’t get Cersei’s love for her children or her grief over losing Joffrey; Cersei isn’t remotely interested is how Jaime has been struggling after being maimed (and hurt at how she rejects him because of it) and that he tried his best to return to her as soon as he could.
I totally get the scenario you present, and I don’t disagree with it. It’s just, I don’t know if that applies to Cersei and Jaime’s specific situation.
Like Wimsey pointed out, maybe the narcissism of the Lannister twins makes it more messy and complex. They aren’t just a generic cheating couple, you know what I mean?