A Surprising Return in Game of Thrones Season Seven

WOTWGame of Thrones has been loaded with cast returns in the last couple years, as the show cleaned up many longtime loose ends, bringing back Rickon, Osha, and the Brotherhood without Banners. For casting news for season seven, we’ve heard a lot about actors coming back, including new season six additions Bella Ramsay (Lyanna Mormont), Staz Nair (Qhono), Annette Hannah (Frances the little bird), and Tim McInnerny (Robett Glover).

There is one name in the mix that viewers weren’t expecting to hear will be coming back, given that their departure from Game of Thrones seemed very final. However the latest news tells us he’ll be appearing in season seven.

Arya Walder

According to the official agency résumé of actor David Bradley,  he’ll be appearing in season seven of Game of Thrones. Bradley appeared memorably on several episodes throughout the years as Walder Frey, the dastardly lord of The Twins who helped engineer the massacre of the Starks at the Red Wedding. In season six, Frey received his just desserts at long last when Arya Stark confronted him with a pie made from his sons, right before cutting his throat.

Bradley’s résumé includes all the seasons of his appearances on GoT (though it erroneously lists season 2 instead of 3). Recently it was surprisingly updated to include season 7.

Bradley

There had been rumors, thanks to the recent season seven leaks originating from Reddit, that we might see Walder and the Twins again. With the confirmation of Bradley’s appearance in season seven, we know that that rumor is correct, and that though Walder may be dead, at least his face will be present in the new season. With David Bradley present, we can guess that Arya will continue to use her Faceless talents in season seven.

205 responses

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    1. Man, this season is going to be just fan-service hot garbage! But I bet it will be the fun kind of fan-service hot garbage that will make people who super duper hate to read very happy!

      Thankfully, the adult version created by someone with talent will come out later. And I know it sounds like I’m being cynical, because I am, but I also don’t worry about it any more. The show is the uber dumbed down version of a great story. So it isn’t ruining anything GRRM is writing in the books. I actually thank D&D for that. Thanks for preserving true greatness for the legend who created all this. You are men with more honor than story telling skill.

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    2. I love David Bradley, but Arya story line is getting a bit silly if she starts taking on faces of kills. What makes it more ridiculous is in the show it appears there is quite a bit of body prep before a face can be taken. If it’s all about her taking faces constantly, it is like dumbing down her character arc and in that case they can kill Arya off the sooner the better.

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    3. GeekFurious:
      Man, this season is going to be just fan-service hot garbage! But I bet it will be the fun kind of fan-service hot garbage that will make people who super duper hate to read very happy!

      Thankfully, the adult version created by someone with talent will come out later. And I know it sounds like I’m being cynical, because I am, but I also don’t worry about it any more. The show is the uber dumbed down version of a great story. So it isn’t ruining anything GRRM is writing in the books. I actually thank D&D for that. Thanks for preserving true greatness for the legend who created all this. You are men with more honor than story telling skill.

      Your cynicism is all kinda based on the assumption that these events won’t take place in the books though. And none of us know what’s yet to come. It could well be that the majority of these pivital plot points will be in the books and in all honesty D&D have done a pretty fantastic job for the most part. I must say though the scripts have really suffered since they can’t rely on the books anymore, and even in cases where they still could (Euron anyone?).

      Back to the main point- I’m pretty excited to see what’ll happen to House Frey in S7 😝

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    4. GeekFurious:
      Man, this season is going to be just fan-service hot garbage! But I bet it will be the fun kind of fan-service hot garbage that will make people who super duper hate to read very happy!

      Thankfully, the adult version created by someone with talent will come out later. And I know it sounds like I’m being cynical, because I am, but I also don’t worry about it any more. The show is the uber dumbed down version of a great story. So it isn’t ruining anything GRRM is writing in the books. I actually thank D&D for that. Thanks for preserving true greatness for the legend who created all this. You are men with more honor than story telling skill.

      I fully agree apart from the ‘honor’ thing. I wouldn’t give them that much credit 😉

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    5. GeekFurious,

      Only Dorne and Arya’s story since Braavos is f*cked. Euron and the Iron Islands in the show is not as bad. Euron will do a lot in saeson 7. Oberyn has only 30 minute screentime and he became a legendary character, so Euron still have time. Season 1-4 was really similar to the books story(with a few necessary changes), but they cut the Blackfyre storyline with JonConn and Aegon Mopatis/Blackfyre, Lady Stoneheart, Victarion…In my opinion D&D should’ve done GoT in 10 seasons(+2) to adapt the book story the best way as possible on screen with actors.

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    6. cuddleycrow:
      I love David Bradley, but Arya story line is getting a bit silly if she starts taking on faces of kills. What makes it more ridiculous is in the show it appears there is quite a bit of body prep before a face can be taken. If it’s all about her taking faces constantly, it is like dumbing down her character arc and in that case they can kill Arya off the sooner the better.

      That’s what Faceless Men do. They use faces.

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    7. cuddleycrow,

      Bear in mind they showed in both S2 and S5 that skilled FM appear to have the ability to change faces momentarily, so perhaps Arya has gained this skill. She certainly proved that she could take a face off the Waif without assistance.

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    8. This face swapping business is getting sillier and sillier. Arya taking on the identity of an old man who is taller than her sounds ridiculous. Instead of taking just the face are we to assume she’ll wear his skin as a suit? That aside I am glad to hear she will remain at the Twins a while longer. Hopefully that means she will free Edmure and unite with the Tully side of her family for a time.

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    9. Think people are getting a bit ahead. Actors who died in one season’s finale returned to play a corpse in the next season. There’s no indication he will be playing an active character.

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    10. cuddleycrow,

      cuddleycrow:
      I love David Bradley, but Arya story line is getting a bit silly if she starts taking on faces of kills. What makes it more ridiculous is in the show it appears there is quite a bit of body prep before a face can be taken. If it’s all about her taking faces constantly, it is like dumbing down her character arc and in that case they can kill Arya off the sooner the better.

      I really dislike Arya’s faceless superskill. I feel like it belongs in one of those awful Marvel movies.

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    11. phantomcloud,

      Makes sense really, I never thought that he would go alone, or with just a few mains. Hell, I feel like he’s already a “King” to the Wildlings. Like the speech Tormund gave them last season, he died for them, the least they can do if they want to live “free” is fight for the guy.
      So it’ll be a small group, Jon and the other main cast, with red shirts for fodder. I’m looking forward to a last stand won’t lie, Thoros vs the bear should be pretty cool. And if its taking place in that narrow pass we saw from way backmaybe we will get our own GoT version of the Thermopylae battle.

      Anyways, I’m pretty sure those leaks are accurate for the most part. But they are very vague one liners. Still so much left unsaid.

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    12. I agree that, even with his peeled face, having Arya successfully impersonate the Late Lord Frey to his near kinfolk would beggar credulity. Bradley might just have a scene lying on a bier wearing eyestones. Or, given that the Riverlanders don’t have a tradition of burning their dead, he might have an opportunity by season’s end to reappear as a wight.

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    13. phantomcloud: According to the leak

      This has been in maureencreates timeline all along:

      Arya uses Walder Frey’s face to hold a banquet and poison his sons. Makes sure the women are dismissed, first. Will happen in the first couple episodes.

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    14. Not going to lie there are some silly things about this

      leak

      So according to the leak, Arya kills all the male Freys and lets the women go. Ok, but were all the male Freys involved in the Red Wedding? How does she know this? Is she going to kill even the little male baby Freys in their little Frey cribs? How does she know the female Freys weren’t aware or involved in the Red Wedding? It screams fan service/pandering. I love me some Arya, but come on now.

      Can’t wait to see how the fandom will praise Arya to the high heavens for sparing people who are allegedly innocent of their father’s mistakes, while bitching at Jon for sparing children who are actually innocent of their fathers’ mistakes.

      http://38.media.tumblr.com/73511e7088b9b6187cf31c6401288e3a/tumblr_inline_naqgs16HXL1qz7j5g.gif

      Anyway, I love Mr Filch, so I’m glad he’s back :P.

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    15. How come people don’t like the Faceless men skill? Because its too much magic/fantasy involved? Or because she learned it in such a small amount of time?

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    16. GeekFurious:
      Man, this season is going to be just fan-service hot garbage! But I bet it will be the fun kind of fan-service hot garbage that will make people who super duper hate to read very happy!

      Thankfully, the adult version created by someone with talent will come out later. And I know it sounds like I’m being cynical, because I am, but I also don’t worry about it any more. The show is the uber dumbed down version of a great story. So it isn’t ruining anything GRRM is writing in the books. I actually thank D&D for that. Thanks for preserving true greatness for the legend who created all this. You are men with more honor than story telling skill.

      Aaahahahahahaha.

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    17. Flayed Potatoes: while bitching at Jon for sparing children who are actually innocent of their fathers’ mistakes.

      Who would bitch about Jon sparing innocent children?

      * other than the strange fans that think Sansa should rule the world…

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    18. GeekFurious,

      Yes, poor us tv series only fans, we are so dumb and you are so much smarter for reading the books as well! Thank goodness the show runners dumbed everything down for us dumb people who don’t necessarily read the books! We’re so dumb you know….

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    19. GeekFurious,

      Plainly, many of you need to read more Wild Cards. Get right on that, please! A new year is a great time for a new addiction! (And you can get signed copies from the Jean Cocteau bookshop).

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    20. GeekFurious,

      With that sort of attitude, one must wonder why you’re on a site dedicated to the show. I mean, who would want to be amongst so many who hate reading?

      And you can call it fan service all you like, but I’m not aware any of us know what goes on in the last two books. So judgement should be reserved until we do.

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    21. Clob,

      Other than those (because they were bitching a lot lol)

      – The same people who were bitching at Jon for trying to save Rickon (if Arya or Sansa had been in Rickon’s place, they’d be screaming at Jon to ride over and save them, let’s be real).

      – The same people who were bitching at Jon for sparing Melisandre and exiling her (I saw plenty of these on YouTube and Reddit, even among the recap shows on Youtube… I guess they forgot that scene where she resurrected Jon, oh well…)

      – And when Lads posted his leaks about this

      on that subreddit everyone was bitching at Jon and calling him stupid and a wimp and politically inept, because God forbid Jon try to think of the big picture instead of squabbling over petty things while WW are knocking at their doors lol.

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    22. I don’t get why people say the books are better. The last two books aren’t published yet, how could people know they are better?
      And if D&D would take 5 years to write a single season, the show would be different too. But I’m not sure it would be better since no-one would care to keep following for so long and all the actors would become too old.

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    23. GeekFurious,

      Your comments almost everytime i scroll down are always the same. Cant you just go away to a book only site and stop putting the show down and making out everyone else is dumber because they dont read the books? It’s boring.

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    24. Certain people are just very quick to judge show events as poor without having any background or context. Some leaker spits out a few broken lines about something that may happen and it seems silly. There’s nothing extra to it for anyone to make an accurate assessment of the scene(s) at this time. George has written a lot of shit that would sound super silly if summed up in a few lines without any context. Hell, even with context some things would sound silly. Take the entire sequence of the ‘creation’ of Lady Stoneheart and sum it up in a couple simple sentences and see how that reads.

      While this “leak” probably won’t happen the same or at all in the books, I can see GRRM writing something like it…

      Arya could become Walder for the very reason of rooting out all of those involved in the murder of her family. She could do just that and exact punishment on all of them at once. I have the imagination to see this sequence written out and be rather good and interesting. It might look weird for Arya to become Walder but it may not read that way. If this leak does happen they may not even show Arya changing to or from Walder. We’d just know it’s her.

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    25. Clob:
      Take the entire sequence of the ‘creation’ of Lady Stoneheart and sum it up in a couple simple sentences and see how that reads.

      Mr. Martin pulls a revenge zombie out of his hat.
      Damn, I did it in one simple sentence.

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    26. I predict Arya’s Frey Pie recipe will become so wildly popular that she’ll open a chain of restaurants with Hot Pie and even write a weekly food column for the KL Times Sunday Magazine.

      Eat your heart out Mark Bittman (quite literally)!

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    27. I’m just waiting for the “show is fanfiction” crowd to change the narrative into they are the victims. Really funny IMO. Can’t take an argument then don’t start it.

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    28. The leaker strikes again.

      I don’t know how anybody can say he didn’t have knowledge of indoor filming at this point (which was one of the last arguments being used against the validity of everything he said).

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    29. Pigeon:
      Or, ya know, he’s just laying there dead.

      Yup, with Edmure placing stones over his eyes while muttering “It’s all mine now, MINE!!!”

      Enter Littlefinger stage left…

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    30. Not ONE of my non-book reader friends complained about Season 6…Actually most people, critics alike found it to be one of the stronger seasons…Not ONE of my non-book reader friends complained about Season 5 other than about the Sand Snakes lol.

      How can you call ANYTHING “Fan Fiction” without absolutely knowing if GRRM has disclosed particular events with the show runners?? GRRM himself said that events from Winds of Winter would be spoiled in Season 6 and he had no one to blame other than himself.

      We come to this forum to enjoy reading casting leak news…potential spoilers…etc…not read through the comments to see complaint after complaint from people that couldn’t adapt a version of “Red Riding Hood” if their life depended on it…

      So please…lol let us just enjoy the show (which is GREAT and one of the best of all time)! You are entitled to your opinion but when every comment and post is something negative…you make it really hard to enjoy the experience that is WatchesontheWall.

      Thank You!

      – Book Reader & Show Watcher

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    31. Catspaw Assassin: Yup, with Edmure placing stones over his eyes while muttering “It’s all mine now, MINE!!!”

      Enter Littlefinger stage left…

      LOL!

      “Edmure……you shink that thish ish all yoursh? Foolish lad!!!!”

      *enter Varys, stage right*

      “Goddammit all to hellsh!!!”

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    32. Flayed Potatoes: Anyway, I love Mr Filch, so I’m glad he’s back :P.

      I was a little disappointed that we didn’t get to see Bradley with his push-broom sweeping up the carnage after the Red Wedding (though I suppose that lords have serfs to do that sort of thing for them). That moment was my absolute favorite scene in Deathly Hallows Part 2!

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    33. GeekFurious,

      While I don’t agree with lot of things D& D do ..

      But have to ask this one and can’t resist ..

      . So it isn’t ruining anything GRRM is writing in the books.

      What books ?,..Wild cards ..then yes I agree with you

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    34. TheMannis,

      Also, (and for the googleth and third time) fan-fiction and adaptation are fundamentally different. Fan-fiction is an attempt at creating a new tale with (someone else’s) pre-existing set of characters. Adaptation is trying to tell the same story in a different way. Novels are awful scripts (and vice versa) because what you need to tell a particular story (say, coming to grips with understanding that the perfect is the enemy of the good) has to be done differently in a novel, in an opera, in a play or in a movie.

      And, of course, the other problem comes from those who view series like SoI&F as documentaries rather than stories. If one does not understand what the story is, then one cannot recognize what is being adapted. Again, shark and T. rex: keep the top-of-the-chain predator, but ditch the fish/dinosaur (depending on which way you are adapting).

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    35. So, will it be Arya posing a Frey, or will it be someone else? (And that field of someone else is basically limited to one character….)

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    36. phantomcloud:

      yeah what’s up with those eyestones in the BTS video for season 7. There will be a funeral.

      You wouldn’t happen to be IceKhione on FreeFolk? Your comments seem to line up quite similarly.

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    37. Mawk,

      I don’t know, but since she spent 2 whole seasons in Braavos, she better damn well have acquired the skills of the Facelse’s Men.

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    38. Flayed Potatoes:
      Not going to lie there are some silly things about this

      leak

      Anyway, I love Mr Filch, so I’m glad he’s back :P.

      Arya was present at the RW and saw the horrors for herself. Also, combined with the information she’d have gained on her travels with the Hound (remember when those Frey soldiers were bragging in S3 E10?) as well as during her time at the Twins in disguise is more than enough time to be fully in the picture as to what happened that night.

      Also- Arya would never

      kill innocent children, she has too much of her father in her and she’d never tell Jon to do this, in fact according to the leak, it was Sansa who allegedly wanted the rebel Lords’ children to be punished by taking their lands

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    39. Flayed Potatoes:
      Not going to lie there are some silly things about this

      leak

      Anyway, I love Mr Filch, so I’m glad he’s back :P.

      There are some silly things, indeed. I’m not sure about

      The idea that Arya takes Walder’s face, then poses as him (so once you have the face, you can look like that person all over, ie. have their body and stature and clothes – because it was never explained on the show, as I recall, but that’s minor) and kills the Frey men, she assuming they’re responsible for the Red Wedding.

      However, at Winterfell Sansa is berated for being on a ‘power trip’ where she wants to hold the Northern Houses who didn’t join in before or for the Battle of the Bastards, and their offspring, accountable? How is this different? Is it just that the children shouldn’t be held accountable? Arya cares about kids, but Sansa does not? And why does the show want to continue to paint Sansa as a ‘bad guy’ and Arya as a ‘good, superhero’ type?

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    40. khal jon:
      Before reading -“Must be Syrio must be Syrio!!” After reading – “ahh ok”

      The first thought that came to my mind was, ‘Oh, so Xaro Xhoan Daxos DID have enough sense to install a secret way to extricate himself from that vault, just in case he accidentally locked himself inside.’

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    41. Just reading through the headline and the first several comments- why is everyone assuming this is anything more than a funeral scene?

      OH RIGHT. The assumptions are based off of leaks and the rumors associated with them. Good times.

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    42. It has never been explained to us what “magic” goes into the face swapping deal. From reading the books, I don’t think it is ever mentioned that Faceless Men only take faces of people who share similar body types, I had always imagined that a Faceless Man could take a face of a woman and use it or a Faceless Woman the face of a man and use. If you think about it, the whole think is unbelievable if you start using logic. Like how does their skin absorb the skin of a foreign face so perfectly that no one notices anything out of the ordinary? Magic, right? So if you are already willing to accept that type of magic what is the problem with assuming, until told otherwise, that the face swapping magic is some sort of glamour that allows for the host to take on the complete physical appearance of the face he or she is wearing? If R’llhor has glamour magic, why can’t the Many Faced God also have the same?

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    43. Danny,

      I don’t have my books with me to pull anything specific, but the faces are more than just masks. The person using one effectively becomes the other. In ADwD Arya even suffers nightmares of the girl who’s face she’s wearing. The show has already crossed off the question of gender too by having the waif wearing the face of a young man when she goes in to kill Lady Crane.

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    44. Corinnestark:
      Mawk,

      I don’t know, but since she spent 2 whole seasons in Braavos, she better damn well have acquired the skills of the Facelse’s Men.

      I have to agree that it would be nonsensical for Arya to have spent the amount of time she did at the House of Black and White without learning at least some of the skills used by the FM. I think it is wrong to expect her to be at Jaqen’s level (he leaves the impression of having been with the FM for a very long time) but she has to have the basics down otherwise the Braavosi plot arc was for nothing other than taking her away from Westeros. All remaining Stark kids – and I am including Jon in this – have been on training apprenticeships since season 1; Arya’s has to have included all this FM stuff for a reason, and hopefully we will get to see her use the skills she has gained.

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    45. Friends, this is not fan service but logical in context and a very potent payoff of the Braavos story line. Far from an accidental superpower, Arya attended Faceless Men university for these abilities. Recall that Arya has always been quick at picking up skills and abilities and, as Jaqen told the Waif, “A Girl has many talents”. After her relatively short training, Arya’s skills probably do extend, er, beyond face value. Maybe such abilities exist only for faces you’ve personally killed, not those off the walls. Perhaps only certain FM are enabled to do this; “No One” may be a designation or honourific or diploma that bestows special abilities that book FM have: to adapt the bodies and even inherit memories of the faces they impersonate. Despite no mention of that on the show, ASOIF readers have certainly speculated about it. In any case, this ability makes Arya infinitely more dangerous to anyone she goes after and will occasionally have the audience guessing if someone is who they are or Arya in disguise. The very thought gives me gooseflesh.

      As to the morality, except for the stable boy accident, Arya has exclusively killed people guilty of killing and harming, especially harming the helpless. Even with the FM, her moral compass has been intact. As she herself saw, House Frey mass-murdered House Stark, breaking guest right as well. Of course she would try to wreak vengeance on the entire house whilst protecting women and children. Sansa in some way tries to punish two children for things their fathers did. It’s not merciful, but IMO it is a quite understandable course of action as long as she doesn’t physically harm them.

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    46. khal jon:
      Before reading -“Must be Syrio must be Syrio!!” After reading – “ahh ok”

      Syrio, yes, that would be great.
      To be honest, I personally thought it would be Jaqen.
      But ok, Walder Frey. As a corpse, I would imagine.

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    47. I think that we’re suppose to believe that show-Arya is as trained as book-Arya is/will be. They just didn’t have the time to show a lot of it I guess. Either that or we’re just simply not suppose to dwell on it. She’s still training in what’s published so far of course so we don’t know how advanced she’ll get, but she’s been learning more already than the show conveyed, which was limited but did touch on her blind training, fighting, reading lies and poisons. She’s also learning to speak Valyrian, Braavosi and the languages of Pentos and Lys. I wish they’d shown a bit of her learning languages. If she ever meets Daenerys it would be cool if she could speak to her in High Valyrian.

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    48. Sean C.,

      Leak spoilers:

      I only skimmed the leaks, so I’m no expert, but didn’t he also say that the Riverlands won’t feature at all? That is a contradiction. Also, I believe he said Theon would remain in his Reek persona for the duration of the season, but we have those photos of Theon fighting back. The leaks may have gotten a lot of things right, but I don’t think they’re right about everything.

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    49. Young Dragon,

      Looked to me like he was mostly getting his ass beat.
      Comments about that “contradiction” were that perhaps he wasn’t familiar with the Riverlands and that The Twins is part of it. *shrug*

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    50. Apollo,

      When Jaqen changed faces at the end of S2, it was a glamour rather than a stolen face, though. It’s explained that way in a later book, at least. Very few Faceless Men can do that.

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    51. phantomcloud,

      There is plenty of indication! Not one leak has been debunked

      Arya puts on Walder’s face so “Walder” can throw a family dinner. Arya poisons the remaining Frey’s in one fell swoop. She never has to stand, she can sit at the table the whole time. Now voice changing is something the book nor the show have addressed, so that is something we have to assume can be handled. But I love it! I can’t wait to see them all die in a wonderful Arya type fashion. I am going to go out on a limb and say one of the family members realizes it isn’t Walder and Arya has to kill them outside of the poison. can’t wait!

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    52. Why are people whining about Arya (potentially) actually using the skill she spent two seasons learning? Might as well get some fun payoff, no? Otherwise, it’s all pain, no gain, except for some Braavos postcards (and Mace, with his opera, was much the better guide for that).

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    53. Mawk,

      Personally I’m not a fantasy fan at all, I just love the normal humans fighting each other for power parts of the story. So the faceless men thing is just something I have to sit through while waiting for the bits I’m interested in. The whole concept is a complete non-starter for me. Having said that, Arya does seemed to have mastered things unusually quickly, although we don’t really have anything to compare her progress to. Maybe she was just a natural talent?

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    54. Newest leak spoilers:

      ARYA after removing Walder’s face: “If they ask you what happened here […] tell them winter came to House Frey.”

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    55. Simon,

      It’s a possibility, but considering the important elements remaining in the story is a Walder Frey funeral something necessary to show? I mean, it’s Walder, not Joffrey or Tywin or someone real important. We saw him killed so there’s little reason to go back to the place for something that has little bearing on the main characters/story, especially if it’s something that can simply be mentioned elsewhere. Edmure isn’t important enough to burn scenes on either if no other main cast are part of it.

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    56. Young Dragon,

      [Leaks discussion]

      He said there wouldn’t be Riverland stuff, but he went on to talk about the Twins stuff, which suggests he’s not clear on the geography of what the Riverlands are. Frankly, Lads came across like a casual viewer, which is kind of bizarre considering how much information he has, but there you go. He said that Theon would regress to Reek-type behaviour for much of the season, and the scene of Theon fighting back is from episode 707, so that tracks with Lads as well.

      Alikat,

      The Leak’s version of events is not the only possible explanation for Bradley being back, but when you tally it with all the other stuff the leaker was right about, it’s the most logical conclusion.

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    57. Firannion,

      I don’t see that at all. Everyone is assuming how it doesn’t make sense instead of trying to think how it does make sense.

      Arya technically never has to stand, so the whole height problem could easily not be a thing. She can easily sit there the whole time, propose a toast and the massacre of the remaining Frey’s is done. Now yes, the voice. you can blame the show and the book for this. Neither explain how one would change their voice has a FM to sound like the person they are copying. The Arya character changed her voice to be the servant. Maybe it is just assumed? Other than that, I like it. What you don’t want the Frey’s dead? How do you propose they die, in fair fight with Jon leading the army for revenge so more men have to die? No they massacred the north, riverlands without a proper battle and so what comes around goes around. Go Arya, Free the Twins!

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    58. Flayed Potatoes,

      I am sorry you had such a rough experience dealing with fans passionate about a show. I am pretty sure they were complaining that Jon was stupid not for saving a kid but for making a crappy military choice by charging to save Rickon. And dude yes people would scream for him to save Arya or Sansa in that situation because those characters that we know, that have been fleshed out throughout this story. Rickon met nothing. His death was no shock, there were deaths throughout the show to non-Starks that hurt WAY more than Rickon’s death. Hell Sansa even said while planning that Rickon is already dead. So I think you are mistaken at what people were complaining about. They were upset that Jon is continuing to make dumb decisions. I read a bunch of recaps and stuff and I hardly saw anything about Jon not killing Mel. This the first time hearing of it being a thing.

      They were calling Jon inept because he almost lost battle because he didn’t hold formation.

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    59. Flayed Potatoes: So according to the leak, Arya kills all the male Freys and lets the women go. Ok, but were all the male Freys involved in the Red Wedding? How does she know this? Is she going to kill even the little male baby Freys in their little Frey cribs? How does she know the female Freys weren’t aware or involved in the Red Wedding? It screams fan service/pandering. I love me some Arya, but come on now.

      Can’t wait to see how the fandom will praise Arya to the high heavens for sparing people who are allegedly innocent of their father’s mistakes, while bitching at Jon for sparing children who are actually innocent of their fathers’ mistakes.

      I do agree, I really dont like this detail within Arya’s story, and it has nothing to do with her training.

      Arya wouldn’t really know who took part in the Red Wedding. In books Roslin Frey cries throughout the ceremony because she knew what was about to happen. The Red Wedding must have taken some good planning, so it is almost unavoidable that some of the women were not involved. Some of the women might have agreed with Walder Frey’s actions.

      This is a series which features women like Cersei. Arya herself has killed a lot of people. And now we are led to believe that Arya lets all of the women go, because we are suppose to believe that they are all “innocents”.

      This is a very sexist mindset and attitude.

      If Arya wants to kill all of the Freys then she should kill all of Freys, including the women, that would be an interesting development.

      But from the information we have about the leaks, it just seems like they want people to see Arya kill people, but they still want people to like her. They just think in terms of black and white actions. This is fanservice 101.

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    60. Stargaryen,

      He may not have meant something to you but given that you are not part of the story how you feel about Rickon doesn’t matter. But Rickon did matter to Jon, just like Sansa or Bran would have matter. Arya would have matter even more obviously. Rickon was Jon’s brother, a brother that he loved and Jon has always being portrayed as someone whose heart is at the center of who he is as a person. Jon galloping to save his little brother was very much within character. Not galloping and accepting his death without a fight would be completely NOT Jon. No, it would not be an evolved Jon, a Jon has learned a thing or two Jon, it simply wouldn’t be Jon. It would be an unJon thing to do for him. It may be a Sansa thing but clearly not Jon. I’m glad they have kept that part of Jon very consistent.

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    61. Simon:
      I hate to rain on everyone’s parade but perhaps it’s just for a funeral.

      Mmm… Not. The leaker has been proved right about pretty much everything he said. Don’t really think that he could get this one wrong.

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    62. Dark Lark,

      Why is Sansa painted as bad and Arya as good? Well that is their character. Sansa is selfish. Sansa wants to play the game, and Sansa wants power. Arya does not. She wants revenge when revenge is right. Are we to assume because they are Stark and sisters that they should be great and good and get along? I mean what a terrible question. Why does Sansa come off this way and Arya another? They are different people, with different pasts, and different wants and needs. I mean GRRM original plan for the books Sansa was suppose to intentionally betray her Stark family and Arya was always about revenge and treaded closely to Jon. They are portrayed that way because that is who they are. Just cause they are Starks doesn’t mean everything they do must be good.

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    63. r-hard,

      Lol, no, not 10 seasons. We don’t need 5 seasons of Meereen, 4 seasons of Braavos or lame characters like LSH, Arianne and Vic. I won’t even mention YG and the worst plot twist in the books.

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    64. Boudica: I really dont like this detail within Arya’s story, and it has nothing to do with her training.

      Much of that could be answered in one line of dialogue. Quite simple really.

      She could have tortured the names out of Lothar and Black Walder before killing them. As Walder she could simply ask one of his sons or grandsons to gather everyone that was involved in it to come for a celebration dinner. Walder wasn’t the type to give women anything of importance to do. They are there simply to serve and be sold off into marriage. Arya would probably know this and thus treat them as innocent. Even if they knew about it they most likely wouldn’t have been participants.

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    65. Stark Raven' Rad,

      Ofc it is not a “fan service”. Those are the same old phrases used by book purists, like “makes no sense”, “bad writing”, “fan fiction”, “shock value”,….

      It is always the same with them. Arrogance and ignorance.

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    66. Fingers crossed that it’s just for a funeral scene.

      Maybe they’ll give him a Riverlands Viking funeral, a la Hoster Tully in Season 3.

      Because if they have Arya magically carve his face off, stash a 175lb body somewhere, clean up all the blood that poured from his throat, find some clean Walder Frey clothes, physically change her body shape and do a spot on Walder Frey impression… all without anybody noticing anything… well… I’d be very disappointed at the obvious decline in writing standards.

      I still have hope.

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    67. Danny,

      Agree, what Jon did was a bad tactical decision but at the same time it’s what any family member that loved their little brother would do. In that moment he was just a guy trying to stop another family member from being murdered, he felt helpless in the past because he was never there and only received letters about what happened to his family but in this moment he felt his brother’s life was up to him and he could stop it, it might seem a highly stupid thing for a leader to do but it’s the only thing a brother could do.

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    68. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I don’t believe you’re suppose to think that deeply about unseen actions. It breaks the immersion in the show. It would be similar to Jaqen killing all of those guards at Harrenhal and mounting their bodies on pikes to look alive while not raising any alarms in doing so. How did he do that? 🙂

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    69. mau:
      Clob,

      There is not a single female Frey in the show(or the books) who had a say in anything.

      Exactly. They’re afraid to even speak. Their demeanor alone shows exactly what women are worth/for in House Frey.

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    70. TheMannis,

      Agree 100%, We have no idea what GRRM has told D&D we know he told them about Hodor, Shireen and the ending but there is also a good chance they asked about where the big characters are going and GRRM at least gave them a rough outline of where he plans on taking that character. A adaption is not supposed to take a novel word for word and we are lucky they didn’t as they would be stuck in the same position as GRRM right now, the end not in sight.

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    71. mau,

      Agreed, if we had to choose between our own little brother scared and helpless to defend himself over keeping a tactical position I think we would know what most people would think

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    72. Sean C.: There’s nothing particularly childish about fantasy compared to any other, as GRRM himself would tell you.

      No, GRRM has stated that fantasy does not have to be childish. It does not have to be quests to find relics or depend on find/learning magic or anything like that, and it does not use archetypes rather than realistic characters. I.e., it does not have to be knock-offs of Tolkien. However – and GRRM has been pretty emphatic about this – too much fantasy is a knock-off of Tolkien, and thus considered pretty childish by a large segment of the population. For good or for ill, plot-driven storytelling is generally considered to be quite childish now, whereas “adult” stories always are character-driven. (Tolkien hated this: but Tolkien was a throw-back Tory who hated the idea that humans were complex and who blamed all of the “modern” problems on people getting ideas above and below the stations to which they were born.)

      Game of Thrones is very much an attempt at character-driven fiction with fantasy elements. What it is most comparable to, in many ways, is Babylon 5. TV SciFi had much the same rap as written fantasy. Straczynski wanted to do a sociopolitical drama in which some “big questions” could become realistic ones in part by using fictional (but possible) futuristic settings. He succeeded pretty well in doing so. Whedon’s short-lived Firefly and the rebooted Battlestar Galactica both followed this, as do very new shows like the Expanse and Dark Matter, and even the new Doctor Who has gone this direction (much to the chagrin of some “original series” fans, who miss the “Hero” Doctor and the simple lines between “good” and “evil.”). Whether this will catch on for written and/or televised fantasy in a similar way remains to be seen.

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    73. Mel,

      There is not a good chance, they did ask him about every major character. They’ve said that. And they mentioned Arya specifically in that interview.

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    74. Mel,

      More important, he probably has told them what the real crises are for the main characters for Winter and Spring. That is sort of the “control sentence” for the paragraph of the season. We might not know exactly what happens in Winter, but we do know that it probably will be about the main characters weighing various unsavory options about alliances, rallying peoples, etc., and trying to figure out which options are the least odious. As for Spring: well, hopefully GRRM has told them why the climax is going to make Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc., feel like they can do no right. Of course, in principle, GRRM and B&W should have been building to this for 4 or 5 stories now!

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    75. Clob,

      No, sorry. It’s just stupid.

      Having a mysterious/magical supporting character who can pull off feats that stretch the bounds of reality is one thing.

      Having one of your main protagonists suddenly capable of the impossible and able to carry out reality-defying feats at the drop of a hat just stinks of lazy and garbage writing.

      I could stomach Arya pulling off the face-swapping trick a couple of times, especially in circumstances where it actually has some vague basis in reality (e.g. similar body type, previously unknown characters, etc).

      But if she’s just going to be capable of the impossible whenever the writers feel like using it as a lame plot device then I’m not going to pretend that it’s tolerable.

      There’s expecting some suspension of disbelief from your viewers, and then there’s nonsensical farce. This would be crossing the line into the latter.

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    76. Since I haven’t read all the leaks I’m not sure if i should comment. I have no problem with Arya taking on the face of Walder, but would agree that it sexist to have her kill just the males. In fact in the books not all of the males were present some were absent those most loyal to Robb. In the show it doesn’t explain that some of the personality of the face goes into the wearer. I was wondering since I don’t know the leaks if Bran might have a vision where Walder and the Red Wedding is seen tying it all to the Lannisters and maybe even LF having a part in it as well.

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    77. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
      Okay. Understood. *shrug*
      I guess I just see it as something that happens all the time in tv & movies, even in non-sci fy/fantasy. That’s what this is though and the books are filled with nonsensical things. Hell, the entire idea and abilities of the Faceless Men is ridiculous.

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    78. Clob,

      On that point though, I don’t think this is something that is all that beyond belief or reality, with imagination.

      We saw her kill him alone in the hall. She could have quickly wrapped him in a blanket, drug his frail body in a chamber behind the dais and hidden it there after taking and preparing his face. As lord of the castle HeShe can order everyone to stay out of that chamber. Nobody would have reason to believe he’s not actually Walder giving orders.

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    79. Stargaryen: What you don’t want the Frey’s dead? How do you propose they die, in fair fight with Jon leading the army for revenge so more men have to die? No they massacred the north, riverlands without a proper battle and so what comes around goes around.

      Actually, I have no investment in seeing more Freys die. Arya has butchered three on the show already. I take no great glee in revenge tropes, and in fact find them pretty lame, cheap and unsatisfying in most cases. Characters transcending or letting go of their drive for vengeance are much more interesting to me, because there’s personal growth involved and not just payback. I’m waiting to see how Arya moves on.

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    80. Wimsey: plot-driven storytelling is generally considered to be quite childish now, whereas “adult” stories always are character-driven.

      No offense intended, but when you utter ‘pronouncements’ like this about literary theory, as if the whole world of writers and critics agreed about it, it sounds a bit pompous and pedantic. ‘Generally considered’ is a very subjective assumption here. There are actually multiple schools of thought on what constitutes a good story.

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    81. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      What are you talking about? We saw in the show how the can change their body shape and their aspect, don’t you remember the lovely granny who stabbed Arya to death, that was actually the waif, and let me tell you, there is nothing similar between a 80 year old woman and a teenager haha

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    82. Stargaryen,

      To say that Sansa was good and Arya was bad because they were wrote that way is a very simple excuse.

      First, non of them are good nor bad, they are grey characters (well, getting into the darkness), Sansa is not the evil bitch some people try to say she is but she also isn’t the perfect amazing leader that some Crazy Sansa fans try to make her look like, and the same goes with Arya, they are extremely complex characters, who have suffered trauma, pain and anger from a very young age, that’s why Arya is a “psychopath” (in my opinion she is not) and Sansa a “cold hearted bitch” (which she kind of is).

      BTW Sansa doesn’t want power, I mean she wanted “power” when she was 11 and she thought being queen was all about having babies and wear pretty dresses; and Arya is not all about revenge, they both. Have something in common, they are strong and they miss their family, even though they’ll argue, I’m hopeful that they will resolve their differences.

      Sorry for the long post, but talking about the Starks girls really gets me on my nerves

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    83. Clob,

      Sorry if my last comment came across as really blunt. But this show has been of such high quality for so long, I’d just be sorely disappointed if the quality dipped by throwing all reason and detail out of the window.

      I mean, for example, before the Mountain was resurrected we had heard specific reference to Qyburn’s experimentation on humans, that led to him having his maester’s chains taken from him. And they showed evidence of his ongoing experimentation on the Mountain.

      When Melisandre resurrected Jon, they made a point of her not believing that she was capable of such a feat and that the power, along with most of the rest of her magical feats, ultimately appears to lie with a god rather with the individual.

      After the massacre at The Twins, they showed servants scrubbing the blood off the floor of the hall. They could’ve just overlooked that detail completely.

      They rarely leave anything completely unexplained.

      Even the whole “only death can pay for life” and the human sacrifices are a partial rationalisation of the unexplained.

      And they’ve even shown us the Faceless Men undertaking the laborious process/ritual of preparing a body for use in the Hall of Faces, including showing Jaqen (a pro) slowly removing a face millimetre by millimetre.

      Yet we’re now supposed to accept Arya doing these things entirely without fuss, and just overlook the practicalities?

      Arya has already miraculously murdered, butchered and cooked two grown men in a busy castle without any explanation or anyone noticing. I could just about rationalize that in my own head.

      But if they offer us absolutely no rationalization of how she managed to dispose of Walder’s body and seamlessly adopt his look and personality after murdering him in broad daylight in the middle of the great hall of The Twins, then we’ve crossed over into a different standard of writing which I don’t think I can enjoy as much.

      If they offer us some exposition then I might be able to accept it, but they’d still be pushing the limits.

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    84. Firannion,

      I agree, no offense to the other Frey’s but I don’t really feel anything for them because we don’t know them. Arya already killed the Freys who took the main part in The Red Wedding. Now if it’s something else like she’s doing it to help save a family member like Edmure Tully escape than that’s different.
      I love Arya but I have no idea where her story line is going after all the people she’s killed, especially chopping up two people into little pieces and cooking them in a pie, I just don’t think she will be able to put it all behind her and adjust to a normal northerner life after all this.

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    85. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I don’t see what purpose the exposition would serve. I think that this scene will start with Arya as Walder Frey freeing Edmure or something like that. So that works only if we see Arya as Walder Frey immediately.

      I don’t think that watching her hide his body and take his clothes would make a great scene. It would be just unnecessary exposition for something we can already assume.

      Just like for example watching Daario, Jorah and Dany preparing that Tample for fire in s6e4.

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    86. The real problem with this scene is that its just rushed.

      There is no explanation of how Arya managed to study, and infiltrate, or pull off this feat.

      So if they can skip this, then they can skip pretty much everything. Need Arya to assainate anyone without an explanation? Go right ahead. Hell she should be heading to Kings Landing next rather than home, there is a Queen she should take care of in the same fashion.

      Just is ridiculous.

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    87. Clob: * other than the strange fans that think Sansa should rule the world…

      What’s strange is redditors who think Sansa doesn’t deserve to rule because she had no formal training like Arya and Bran. Why can’t Sansa have a redemption arc?

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    88. Rygritte,

      I don’t want to turn this into a Sansa thread so I’ll just say she can have one. As far as I’m concerned they’ve already created an entirely different Sansa so may as well carry on. My first choice would be to simply off her, but they don’t seem willing. 😛

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    89. Rosie: With that sort of attitude, one must wonder why you’re on a site dedicated to the show.

      I think people are hurt because they read the books decades ago and have been anticipating this moment for so long only to have their dreams shattered by D&D cutting Patchface and Jinglebell.

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    90. Clob: Take the entire sequence of the ‘creation’ of Lady Stoneheart and sum it up in a couple simple sentences and see how that reads.

      Instant boner.

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    91. mau,

      Obviously we can assume that’s what happened. But we could assume almost anything. That doesn’t mean that exposition is unnecessary.

      I believe that the exposition and detail is one of the things that has made this show so good, as I outlined in my last post. And there’s an obvious difference in quality when it is lacking, as far as I’m concerned.

      The Temple fire in S6E4 was one of the weakest and least believable spectacles of the show so far, in my opinion, partly due to the almost complete lack of the sort of exposition you mention.

      Daenerys just pushed over a few torches, the whole place immediately went up in flames and the Khals were all killed. It was hardly the Red or Purple Weddings. It was just kinda, blah!

      No build-up, no exposition, little tension, just Daenerys inexplicably wins again with no fuss. I don’t find it as entertaining as the more finely crafted spectacles, e.g. the Sept explosion.

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    92. Boudica: I do agree, I really dont like this detail within Arya’s story, and it has nothing to do with her training.

      Of course Arya would know who was behind the Red Wedding as I said earlier in the thread. And the reason she’ll kill the Frey men only is in order to remove their chain of command and ultimately extinguish the Frey line.

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    93. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      No. We couldn’t assume almost anything. For example Arya being on a dragon. But we saw Arya already doing this on the smaller scale, so I don’t understand what kind of exposotion you want.

      These twists with faces work only if we don’t see Arya at first, like with Walder Frey or Trant.

      So everything that will happen in this scene is already established in the show.

      If you are comparing Purple Weddings and burning of the Temple you don’t understand what purpose those events served in this story and the difference between them.

      But even with PW we never found out when and how LF bought that poison, when and how Olenna and LF created that plan, how they were sure that Sansa will waer that necklace , howOlenna was sure that Maergery won’t drink from that cup,… and so many other unnecessary explanations that you want fro this Arya’s scene. And you will maybe even get some. You still don’t know.

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    94. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Clob,

      Arya has already miraculously murdered, butchered and cooked two grown men in a busy castle without any explanation or anyone noticing. I could just about rationalize that in my own head.

      But if they offer us absolutely no rationalization of how she managed to dispose of Walder’s body and seamlessly adopt his look and personality after murdering him in broad daylight in the middle of the great hall of The Twins, then we’ve crossed over into a different standard of writing which I don’t think I can enjoy as much.

      You do make some excellent points, but I would point out two things: First, the two Frey sons were on the road the day they were killed, so there’s the possibility that Arya killed and butchered them in the woods before, er, bringing just a few choice bits to The Twins. Once there she could have easily blended in with the dozens or hundreds of servants scurrying about; at this point she’s had several years’ worth of practice doing just that.

      As for Walder’s killing, it was late in the evening after everyone had gone to bed and he had excused the last of the servants from the great hall. Arya would have had all night for corpse cleanup and face removal.

      I do realize the leaks are getting some of us fired up about some potentially outlandish plot developments, but I’m cautiously holding out hope that Arya’s storyline doesn’t cross over into Marvel territory.

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    95. Mel:
      Firannion,

      I love Arya but I have no idea where her story line is going after all the people she’s killed, especially chopping up two people into little pieces and cooking them in a pie, I just don’t think she will be able to put it all behind her and adjust to a normal northerner life after all this.

      LMAO!!!

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    96. In S6 I was satisfied with Walder and the two sons being killed; it could have stopped there. But clearly, by her code Arya can justly kill the remaining Frey men. To see why, just do the following: Watch! See the Season 3 scenes before and after the Red Wedding, most of which are available on Youtube. First, watch Sandor mocking 13YO Arya for being so close to seeing her family yet afraid it won’t happen. Then the scene when Black Walder and Lothar lay the trap at Riverrun by proposing the marriage to Robb, Cat, Blackfish and Edmure. Watch Episode 9, first when Walder and co receive the Starks to offer bread and salt and pledge guest safety, whilst Walder makes disrespectful, insinuating remarks that ironically predict the massacre he’s planned. Then watch how the Red Wedding itself goes down, with Walder’s mocking speech, then death coming from all corners at the Northerners. The killers are Freys. Individually, Lothar stabs Talisa, Roose Robb and Black Walder Catelyn. Then watch outside as Arya sees Freys massacre the soused Northerners and kill Grey Wind. Watch Arya leap out to attack the killers only to get knocked out by Sandor. Then watch her awaken with horror as the Robb-Grey Wind effigy is paraded by Freys with mocking calls of “King in the North”. Then watch Episode 10 as Walder and Roose congratulate themselves while women scrub blood from the floors. And watch Sandor and Arya ride by Frey men as one boasts about sewing the effigy and how Black Walder cut Catelyn’s throat as she sounded “like a cow in heat”. After killing him Arya holds up Jaqen’s coin and says “Valar Morghulis” with the creepy HoB&W music playing. Hmmmm….

      Ideally, a few snippets from the Red Wedding and Arya’s experience afterwards must be included in the S7 episode’s “Previously, on Game of Thrones”. The audience needs to be reminded why she’s so PTSD, especially about this. Logically, she only knows some of the facts I just mentioned, but she’s been lurking in the Twins and all Freys boast about what they consider the most glorious moment of their lives. In S6E10, Arya heard Walder still bragging to Jaime. She knows enough. Of course she wants exorcise the most traumatic event of her life. She’s also probably aware these men are still dangerous enemies of her family. Personally, I hope she gets additional reasons for executing this final act, but even if she doesn’t, she’s still justified.

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    97. Maybe we should stop looking at Arya as a girl and see her as a fighter. Jon has killed more people than Arya over all, but because of the method nobody claims he’s “disturbed” or troubled by it. He’s killed people that didn’t deserve it and those ordered to fight him. That has been hard on him. Arya has killed those that she knows are bad people that have done bad things and she’s chosen to spare those she feels aren’t truly bad. Just because she does her killing in a method that she’s able to shouldn’t make her any less able to live her life as normally as someone like Jon.

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    98. mau,

      Comparing an obviously redundant explanation of where Olenna/Littlefinger got the poison or when they came up with the plan to kill Joffrey, which are perfectly reasonable things that could have occurred at any time off-screen in all the time passed in previous episodes, to an explanation of how Arya immediately disposed of the cumbersome body of a grown man who she just murdered in the great hall of his own castle and whose identity she is about to steal unnoticed is not a valid dismissal of my gripe.

      Nor is saying that the Temple fire and the Red/Purple weddings served different purposes in the story. Just because one is more or less important than the other, or they serve different purposes, doesn’t necessarily mean that you can dispense with all exposition that would lend the scene credibility or other necessary qualities.

      As for assuming that Arya’s suddenly on a dragon for no reason, I think you’ll find I did say we can assume almost anything.

      And if Arya is going to take on the appearance of Walder Frey then it’s not going to be a twist. As you say, even without further exposition we would assume that it is Arya. But in this case the exposition would lend this further development credibility, rather than it just being the latest unexplained miracle resulting from Arya’s now apparently god-like powers.

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    99. Wolfish,

      The way I rationalized the murder of Black Walder and Lothar was that during the festivities at The Twins she, as the pretty maid, lured them in turn to the same secluded place. They showed Bronn and Lannister soldiers clearly flirting with her, so it’s fair to assume that they were implying that she could attract the interest of the Frey sons if she wanted.

      Anyway, she murdered them. Nobody noticed them missing because they’re too busy living it up.

      She carved them overnight. She cooked them at an opportune moment the next day (maybe while everybody’s sleeping off the hangovers) or chucked their “meat” in with the rest of the meat being cooked into pies. Where did she dispose of the rest of the bodies? Who knows? Maybe she fed them to the dogs.

      But, fair enough, I can rationalize that sequence of events reasonably enough.

      But having to do that once or twice is enough. I don’t want to have to be complicatedly rationalizing all of Arya’s off-screen feats every time she goes into Faceless Men mode from hereon in.

      As Kyrion comments above, if we’re going down that route then they could just use Arya as a plot device to assassinate anyone without proper explanation.

      Maybe they won’t abuse that plot device. But they could start by showing us that disposing of Walder’s body and assuming his identity, if that’s what happens, didn’t just happen by magic.

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    100. Apollo: Of course Arya would know who was behind the Red Wedding as I said earlier in the thread. And the reason she’ll kill the Frey men only is in order to remove their chain of command and ultimately extinguish the Frey line.

      I can accept that Arya wants to extinguish the Frey line. The Frey line is not just made up of men. If all the Frey men are killed, the women will continue the Frey line.

      You cant have your cake and eat it. You either kill all of the Freys and Arya becomes a much darker character, or leave it behind and Arya remains a good type of character.

      Automatically excusing all of the women, because of course they are all innocent, is very sexist. It just seems like a way for Arya to be seen as a good asskicking character without actually following through or having any real consequences.

      It is very simplistic to simply say that all of the Frey women are completely innocent. They did not physically stabbed the Starks but some of them could have been more then happy with the plans, and they still enabled the Freys men by doing their female duties.

      Robb snubbed a few of Walder Frey’s daughters and grand daughters, how do we know if one or two of them might not have been highly offended at being snubbed?
      Perhaps one or two of those girls dreamt of becoming a Queen, and being taken away from The Twins. Those women might have been more then happy to see Robb and his new wife dead.

      Then we also have wives of the men themselves, they also have their own ideas and ambitions. Genna Lannister for example completely overrules her Frey husband.

      It pretty basic and lazy to group all of the Frey women together as one entity with hive mind.

      Arya already killed the main conspirators of the Freys, there isn’t much of need for further deaths, if Arya is suppose to remain a good moral type of character. If she wants to extinguish the Frey line, then character should live with the consequences of that actions.

      My guess is that part of the reason for this killing spree is so that Arya can waste a bit of time. They dont want her in Winterfell immediately. They dont want her and Jon to meet-up this season.

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    101. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
      I still don’t understand why you think it’s so unbelievable.

      Walder was planning a private meal with Lothar and Black Walder. Arya managed to be their server so without orders nobody else should interrupt them in the hall. Of course the other two were already taken out so Arya would have privacy. Walder was a 90 year old boney man, not a Robert-esque hulk for Arya to move. I think a strong, in shape young woman could drag him to a safe room off the hall. As soon as she takes on Walder’s persona everything she says is obeyed. We’re talking about a window of time that only goes from killing Walder to donning his face. She could even stuff Walder’s body in a sack and order some daughters to burn it without telling them what it is. All sorts of possibilities.

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    102. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Wolfish,

      Maybe they won’t abuse that plot device. But they could start by showing us that disposing of Walder’s body and assuming his identity, if that’s what happens, didn’t just happen by magic.

      Understood. As I noted in my original comment, I still have enough faith in D&D not to cheapen Arya’s storyline with Marvel-like attributes. I haven’t always agreed with their choices in the adaptation, but for the most part I live for Sunday nights during the season.


      I will not drink so much Zinfandel I go on a rant about Dorne
      I will not drink so much Zinfandel I go on a rant about Dorne
      I will not drink so much Zinfandel I go on a rant about Dorne…

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    103. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      There is no need for an explanation how Arya dispose the cumbersome body of a grown man in the great hall of his own castle in the middle of the night(!!!), no more than it was need for an explanation how LF and Olenna were sure that Sansa will waer that necklace or how Olenna was sure that Maergery won’t drink from that cup.

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    104. Boudica,

      There is no reason for Arya to assume that they played any part in RW, because they were established as a characters with no agency at all. They are just like Craster’s wifes, almost Walder’s victims.

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    105. Clob,

      Or maybe at the end of this scene we will see where his body is,so this conversation was pointless. But if someone is already willing to dismiss this whole scene even without context of the actual episode, I don’t see how this conversation is productive.

      Everyone should have open mind.

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    106. Boudica,

      And I also disagree about your reasons why they wrote this scene. This scene is not filler,because Arya could easily skip E1.

      This scene will tie loose ends about House Frey and it will for the first time show Arya using the face of a known character. Something that never happened before.

      And she will free Edmure I believe.

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    107. Where is the “cumbersome body” coming from? As I mentioned, Walder is a frail old man. Awoiaf describes him from book description as this:
      Walder is brittle, suffers from gout and is confined to a chair, although he brags that he still can produce progeny. Age has made him bald and toothless and his skin hangs loose. Walder has passed his weasely appearance and weak chin down to many of his descendants. He is a vain, prickly, ambitious, and untrustworthy man.
      With that book Walder our show Arya could sling him over her shoulder and skip around the room. 🙂

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    108. Clob,

      I do think it could be made believable enough. I just don’t believe it is a practical or simplistic enough process to be completely overlooked as part of the storytelling.

      You are rationalizing it with a fairly reasonable explanation. But you’re having to speculate and make assumptions about what Arya’s capable of; about the time frame; about people’s movements; about orders Walder Frey had given; and so on.

      That’s not meant to be the viewer’s responsibility.

      I would be happy with a brief sequence offering some exposition, just so that Arya’s increasingly incredible exploits retain the sort of detail and storytelling that I feel have maintained the show’s credibility.

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    109. mau,

      They can be like Craster´s wives in the context of the show. But why the producers made that decision? I would love to see at least one Frey woman that´s was ok with the Red wedding and wants house Frey to be stronger. Also in the show they dress house Frey like peasants. They villanize them. I´m looking at these decisions outside the context of the world they created, in the minds and agendas of the producers. And I see how simplistic they´re making this part of the story. The stark mom and son die, Arya wants revenge, Arya gets her revenge, but the Frey ladys don´t die, because ladys in every context are always the victims.

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    110. Clob:
      Oh, time for the new episode of Taboo.Let’s see if the High Sparrow goes all mental, swearing and throwing shit around again.

      Um yep. That didn’t take long. Our reserved High Sparrow has some emotional unrest in Taboo. 😛

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    111. mau,

      That’s a good point about the possible importance of Arya being shown to use the face of a known character – that might well be needed as a setup for events either at the end of this season, or in Season 8.

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    112. Okay, I’m sorry, this isn’t the place to discuss Taboo, but they just mentioned a prostitute named Winter… Take that where you will. 😉

      I’ll refrain from additional comments on the subject.

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    113. Stargaryen: But I love it! I can’t wait to see them all die in a wonderful Arya type fashion.

      I would like to see Arya as Walter Frey lecture the sons as WF did in his wonderful dressing down/exposition to the Frey sons who relinquished Riverrun. So far that rebuke was the best insult of Lord to inferiors and on a par with the defiance of castellans to their besiegers. And after that the wolves run in and feast.

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    114. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I didn’t find anything wrong with the Temple scene, I imagine though because they dragged on Mereen too long in both the book and show, the show was like shit we gotta hurry up and give Dany the dothraki army by the end of the season but GRRM hasn’t written how it happens and we only have a limited time so it obviously wasn’t as thought out as the red and purple wedding so they did the burning of the temple instead. Quick, simple yet effective it was never meant to be a big affair. It was obvious though once the fire had started burning that some kind of oil or liquid was added to it to enhance it, Dany did say she had a plan and that was enough evidence of it, if they showed them add the enhancement to the torches then we would of known what the plan was when GOT likes all their big moments to be WTF surprises. So I don’t think showing us the plan was necessary.

      If Arya was able to murder and hack up two of the Frey’s and somehow transport their meat into the kitchen, cook them in the pie and dispose of the bodies without anyone seeing anything, I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch for her to drag Walder into a unoccupied room and cut his face off when it was late at night and everyone seemed to have gone to bed, then wear his face the next day. In the same way as the temple if they showed us her doing that it wouldn’t be another GOT WTF surprise.

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    115. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: And if Arya is going to take on the appearance of Walder Frey then it’s not going to be a twist. As you say, even without further exposition we would assume that it is Arya. But in this case the exposition would lend this further development credibility, rather than it just being the latest unexplained miracle resulting from Arya’s now apparently god-like powers.

      Instead of exploring how Arya got rid of the bodies, and those logistical aspects. It would have been much more interesting to look at where she got the face of that serving girl.
      Did she kill that girl only to use her face?

      That is the darker part of being a faceless assassin, that is something that would be better or a more interesting to exlope. But it seems like they don’t want to make Arya more of a darker character. Or they want us to think too much about those darker aspects.

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    116. Her uncle Edmure is in a dungeon. The Lannister army is still in Riverland. Maybe just maybe she puts on Walder Frey’s face to get her uncle out?

      Besides, we don’t know what the Faceless men can do so her taking on the face of Walder Frey might not be outlandish.

      This is a fantasy series people. There was loser idiot on ASOIF subreddit claiming to be a medeival history nerd who is outraged about GRRM’s lack of historical accuracy regarding medeival times and wants to impart their 20 years of knowledge of medeival history. I don’t know what book he/she is reading but the one I read has dragons, wargs and an army of the undead on A PLANET THAT IS NOT EVEN EARTH!!!

      Had I known medeival history was full of dragons, an old man who is also a tree etc., I would have paid more attention to it.

      My point? ASOIF and its adaptation GoT is a fantasy. Learn to enjoy both mediums and stop comparing the two. It is like comparing turkey roast with mashed potatoes to chicken salad on a baguette.

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    117. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Having one of your main protagonists suddenly capable of the impossible and able to carry out reality-defying feats at the drop of a hat just stinks of lazy and garbage writing.

      Although “suddenly” doesn’t apply to either, you must dislike Bran’s character as well as Arya’s.

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    118. Mel,

      But nothing in Dany’s storylines in both book and the show wasn’t as thought out as the red and purple wedding. That scene from S6 was an level of her taking Astapor in S3.

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    119. Sean C.:
      The leaker strikes again.

      I don’t know how anybody can say he didn’t have knowledge of indoor filming at this point (which was one of the last arguments being used against the validity of everything he said).

      For better or worse, given all the news, I’m assuming henceforth that the leak is 100% accurate.

      As for the people that are unhappy with the spoilers, I dunno why they are assuming that it’s all D&D’s “fault”.

      It is a fact that every single season of GOT has had: scenes right out of the books; scenes adapted from the book but simplified for television for logistical or other reasons; scenes from the books with the same plot intent and dialogue but with different characters; scenes with the same characters from the books but with different dialogue; and finally, scenes that have been completely invented. Season six I expect was the same, George said in his blog, after reading the scripts for season 6, that “There will be spoilers (for the books), it is what it is”

      Season 7 and 8 will be no exception. But we’re simply not going to know what’s in the books, what’s adapted from the books for the show and what’s a show-only invention unless and until George publishes the books (if that ever occurs.)

      D&D and George’s editor are the only ones besides George to know plot points and character endings for the upcoming books, we’re just in the unique position of watching an adaptation of a work that hasn’t been published, ’cause George is so damn slow…

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    120. GeekFurious:
      Man, this season is going to be just fan-service hot garbage! But I bet it will be the fun kind of fan-service hot garbage that will make people who super duper hate to read very happy!

      Thankfully, the adult version created by someone with talent will come out later.

      I am really looking forward to the adult version where fans are written into the story for shits and grins. Also interested to see how many NFL references the American Tolkien can cram into the upcoming book. Maybe we’ll get more homages to the Three Stooges! Yeah, fan service is totally absent in the pooks and the ham handed cultural references are not at all trite.

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    121. People keep popping in with the “maybe he’s just back for a funeral scene.” Why? Why would they have a funeral scene for Walder? Bradley has been in what… five scenes during the entire series? He’s been a plot device, a ‘location’ for the storylines of the main cast, a springboard for their story arcs. They wouldn’t burn time on a scene/character that has no bearing on the remaining main story. The Freys aren’t going to rise up and become a power because their lord father is dead. Edmure isn’t important enough on his own. They even covered his reimprisonment with a line of dialogue. Walder’s death is one of those occurrences that would be simply covered in conversation with “Walder Frey and his sons are dead (and nobody gives a rat’s ass).”

      No – the only reason Bradley would be back is for some part in the story of a main character. Even if there weren’t spoilers and supposed leaks out there everyone should assume Arya is part of it… even if she wasn’t the only main character last seen at that location. If Bradley were to only play a dead Walder then I’m confident Arya would still be there doing something.

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    122. Clob,
      I think that people are proposing that for fun, really. There are superheavy indications that the leaks are real, but officially, alternate possibilities exist.

      I’m still not sure why some other people complain about fantasy elements in a fantasy story, but hey.

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    123. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: I could stomach Arya pulling off the face-swapping trick a couple of times, especially in circumstances where it actually has some vague basis in reality (e.g. similar body type, previously unknown characters, etc).

      But if she’s just going to be capable of the impossible whenever the writers feel like using it as a lame plot device then I’m not going to pretend that it’s tolerable.

      This!

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    124. Rygritte,

      You’re certainly correct that we saw her practicing her fighting skills a lot. It probably wasn’t clear from what I wrote, but I meant maybe she was a natural talent for being a faceless man and all that (presumably) entails. That is what Mawk was querying, if people thought she seemed to have mastered the whole skill set rather quickly, which I did.

      Hmmm where has my avatar gone? I’m using the same email address. Has anyone else’s disappeared?

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    125. Stargaryen,

      Well, given the recent info:

      that has come out, if this is indeed correct, I don’t think it’s a “terrible question.” It seems to be THE question that the show is posing this season, first the distance then reconciliation of the Stark sisters. The leaks say they in fact ‘kiss and make-up’ – highlighting that they will “get along”. Sure, they’re “different people, with different pasts”, I was never suggesting otherwise. Nor was I suggesting that because they are Starks, everything they do must be good. I was suggesting that the show has taken a very simplistic, clunky route to this, and not shown the ‘greyness’ of the characters or that they are complex. They’ve become caricatures of their show-only selves.

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    126. Dark Lark: The leaks say they in fact ‘kiss and make-up’ – highlighting that they will “get along”. Sure, they’re “different people, with different pasts”, I was never suggesting otherwise. Nor was I suggesting that because they are Starks, everything they do must be good. I was suggesting that the show has taken a very simplistic, clunky route to this, and not shown the ‘greyness’ of the characters or that they are complex. They’ve become caricatures of their show-only selves.

      You’re right, but D&D claim to really like Arya and Sansa, so they should understand them. Hopefully this stuff is phony. Granted, both she-wolves have been dumbed down a bit as the story shifts to focus onto manly war endeavours. Having never even looked at Reddit, I started looking at FreeFolk this week. What a chaotic mess it turned into in just these last few days because of the Storm of Leaks. I read the sample script pages and think they’re awful: mawkish, unimaginative, on the nose, full of “Yes, Dany/whoever” lines, which a good script usually skips. D&D are capable of much better, so something tells me that even if real, these pages actually are early drafts. In addition, several FreeFolkers were incensed that Sansa and Arya actually complimented each other and Arya was okay with being subservient to her sister. That certainly does not ring true. Unless Maisie and Sophie wrote that scene, because they really do like each other but have no experience writing scripts.

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    127. If Arya does end up with Walder’s face, I just hope that someone doesn’t do a sneak attack on her as him, as she did to him. I will be nervous about this until she takes his dirty face off. Hopefully he is only showing up for a funeral, or for a flashback- maybe a flashback to do with planning the Red Wedding if Arya shows at Winterfell, and tells them Walder is dead. Or for another reason- Bran hasn’t seen the Red Wedding yet. While probably not crucial to the WW threat, there may be another reason to show the events of that night.

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    128. In other news though GOT didn’t win in The People’s Choice Awards 🙁
      Emilia Clarke and Sam Claflin’s movie “Me Before You” won best dramatic movie yay loved that movie it was sad af though 🙁
      Do we know if she attended or is too busy filming?

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    129. Mel,

      Oh that’s good to hear…me too loved the film and it was very sad especially the ending..

      But iam very happy for emilia not only for this but also for cast in star wars …considering the amount of crap she gets I wish her she does well and rub it in the face of her haters..
      Teaser of her film voice from the stone also released ..she looks nice in that movie too

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    130. cuddleycrow,

      I don’t think any of the preparation was necessary to use the faces, the Faceless Men were just preparing the bodies respectfully… like face taking morticians. Arya running around abusing the ability would probably be considered an affront to their order/practices.

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    131. dragonbringer,

      Agreed, people do give her shit but “Me Before You” I think was probably the best thing she has ever been in. She was able to be closer to her own real life personality and was able to show in depth emotions like humour, awkwardness, happiness, love, heart breaking while in GOT she shows emotions but she has to keep most of them in because while in the book it’s translated better “I must have fire in my eyes, not tears” in the show Dany putting on that front doesn’t always translate very well without the inner dialogue so people think Emilia is either a bad actress or Dany is just cold.
      I heard voice from the stone is a bit of a thriller so that will be good to see how she acts in such a different genre. Also her other film Above Suspicion also a crime thriller with Johnny Knoxville who I love but never thought would do that kind of movie.
      Star Wars will be good, especially once we find out who she’ll be. I kind of hope she’ll be a villian because that’ll be way different than anything she’s ever done.

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    132. Mel,

      I completely agree with you about me before you and GOT ..one of the reasons I like me before you is because as you she portrayed every emotion and also very close to her real self ..I have been having problem with how dany is being written eversince sesson 2 and how less emilia is being given to perform..
      I just hope atlesst on the last two season writers will give her enough space and goodscenes ..

      Yeah voice from the stone is supernatural thriller and I think it will be similar to woman in black ..very much looking forward to it..
      I don’t know much about above suspicion ..is that the movie where she acts as valley girl..if so from what I heard thats also good story..
      And agree with a villain role in star wars..her doing roles with lots of diversity will be good thing for her

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    133. dragonbringer,

      This is the summary:
      “The chilling true story of a newly married FBI poster boy assigned to an Appalachian mountain town in Kentucky. There he is drawn into an illicit affair with an impoverished local woman who becomes his star informant. She sees in him her means of escape; instead, it’s a ticket to disaster for both of them. This scandal shook the foundations of the nation’s top law enforcement agency, ending in the first ever conviction of an FBI agent for murder.”
      Have no idea if that means she’s a valley girl since i’m not American but I know she had a curly brown wig on for this movie.

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    134. Mel,

      Yeah that’s the movie .when I read that back sometimes ago I was spoiled the ending buty I liked it because its another diverse role for Emilia

        Quote  Reply

    135. I watched quite a bit of the PCA show last night and didn’t see any GoT cast while I had it on. I did miss the related categories when someone might have been shown however. I really don’t care for the People’s Choice Awards… because people suck. 😛 Teen Choice Awards are worse though.

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    136. ArgoX,

      The hilarious part is that this “dumb” tv show has made GRRM and his books much more popular than they ever were or would have been. I’m sure George isn’t sad about all the extra scratch he has pulled in or all the extra eyeballs on his product.

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    137. Flayed Potatoes,

      I don’t think it matters who was involved in the Red Wedding. The point is to punish House Frey as an entity for a gross violation of the guest right and to send a message to the other ruling houses of Westeros that this generation of Starks is not to be trifled with – killing all of the males ensures that House Frey will cease to exist entirely, which is the point.

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    138. ValR21,

      House Frey still exists via the female line though. They’re not going to cease to exist just because the men are gone. It’s also possible those male Freys have male babies. Is she going to kill the babies too? I doubt it. That’s not Arya.

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    139. Flayed Potatoes,

      Good point, FP. She would not, being a Stark with a true Stark heart. Plus, she has seen up close how shabbily House Frey treats any women associated with it. Her true Stark heart will also want to redress that injustice, don’t you think? FWIW, there are also probably some Freys occupying Riverrun, and they will escape unless annihilated by Edmure and his troops. (And maybe Nymeria’s pack?) But I think Edmure will claim the Twins either for himself or his supposed (we have only Jaime’s word on this) son. What I’d really like to see (personal fanfic alert!) is Arya asking Edmure to agree that the southern Twin would belong to House Tully and the Riverlands and the northern Twin to House Stark and the North…in perpetuity That would effectively reduce any remnants of House Frey to merely being a family. Moreover, no one house would control and exploit that vital bridge except the two harmoniously allied Houses. I think that is a more natural border than the existing one. Unfortunately, being a true Stark, Arya is not into power plays and land grabs, so I doubt this will happen in the show. But in a perfect world… .

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    140. I hope the speculation above about Walder either end up being wrong or the scene is cut. At this point, there’s still so much left to do in two short seasons that I don’t get the point of dragging out the that storyline any further.

      As a side note, I have no problems with Arya/face changing, but hope it’s used sparingly for purposes that help drive us to the end. I’d rather focus more on the human side of Arya instead of her as just an instrument of relentless revenge. She’s a much more interesting character than that.

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    141. Yeah, I can see where youre coming from. But it sure serves a perpose if thats what goes down. The Freys are too big a family and too much an enemy and control both Riverun and the bridge between north and south westeros. They got Edmure tully, Arya’s uncle, imprisoned. Wiping out the Frey men would make the North and Jon safer and remove a distraction from preparing to fight the REAL BIG ENEMY, the WWs. No telling if Aryas thinking about this stuff or just about finishing up her revenge on the whole friggin family that Red Weddinged the Starks. But once she’s gotten rid of the Freys she can move on home or go kill Cersie. And free Edmure too so he can take back his family castle. So its a damned good use of the old letch’s face.

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    142. Was anyone else hopeful that this article would reveal the unexpected actor that was returning would be Sean Bean? If D&D are really about fan service, why can’t Bran speak with the version of his father that we all love in one of his visions? Perhaps D&D are saving that for the final episode of Season 8. A girl can dream.

        Quote  Reply

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