The new year of Game of Thrones is a long way from premiering but the promotion machine is already revving up with Sophie Turner talking to Entertainment Weekly today about Sansa’s turn in season 7. We last saw her character safely at Winterfell in the season 6 finale, but Sansa looked to have reservations about her (supposed) half-brother’s new gig as King in the North. So what’s next for the eldest Stark girl?
“She’s seemingly in control for the first time – and it really suits her,” the actress tells EW. “She’s kind of having a bit of a power trip. But she’s also becoming more insecure, because there are threats to the power that she holds.”
Interesting! Could those insecurities and perceived threats have anything to do with the spoilers we shared a couple weeks back?
But don’t let the potential angst bother you too much because it can’t be worse than Ramsay, right? And there’s still more teases forthcoming from the actress.
“What overall excites me about this season is that main characters are coming together and it feels like things are ramping up,” Turner says. “It’s really exciting and all feels like it’s coming to a big conclusion.”
So the question now is, when she refers to “main characters…coming together,” is Turner referring to people in other storylines or is she including Sansa? Season 7 is still far off, and the hype machine is working very well, I’d say.
Hold The Door?
Edit: Oh Wow, I’ve never been first.
Still waiting to see what Sandor Clegane will be up to. 😀
Methinks a Stark Sister reunion is en route…
is it the time of the year when we start begging for trailers yet?
pleaseeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Littlefinger is no threat to the power, he wants her to be in charge for him to further his own agenda. Bran as the heir to Winterfell and Arya with her rigid moral code are those ‘threats’. We know of the upcoming conflict over politics between Arya and Sansa. If she indeed wants to rule, then that’s just regression to her character from season 1. But Sophie has been saying a lot of BS about Sansa every year so I take her words with a grain of salt.
That’s a pretty light piece there for Mr. Hibberd.
Any time I see a heading like “Sophie Turner on Sansa…” I expect to read a bunch of nonsensical stuff. Spared this time. 😛
Im scared to lurk the comments here in case the spoilers are discussed openly.
I love Sophie and I love her interviews…
This is exciting… to me it seems like I was right, she is going to feel threatened by Jon… and then possibly by LF….
“threats to the power that she holds.”
What else could this mean?
I definitely expect her to go on a power trip if/when Jon leaves her in charge. In that situation I fully expect her ‘power’ to be threatened if not simply questioned by all the lords and people around her. She doesn’t know what she’s doing!! She’s never been a leader of anything yet she’ll expect everyone to agree and obey everything she says simply because she’s a Stark.
Why the hell is she so worried about her power when they all know there is a fucking apocolypse coming?! I understand someone like Cersei might care more about power than that but I’d expect more from Sansa.
Yup.
*hires truck to unload large boulder of salt*
So she goes on a power trip which makes her insecure. I get that, when Jon leaves he takes Davos with him and leaves Sansa in charge but who will advise her when their gone, hopefully not that Maester, he seemed a bit hopeless, I miss Luwin, he would’ve been perfect for the job. If Sansa doesn’t have a good advisor she may make mistakes the other Northern Houses don’t approve of especially considering she has learned southern politics which aren’t accepted in the North and I wouldn’t trust Little finger to be a faithful advisor to her, the exact opposite actually.
Can’t wait.
Sansa/LF and Cersei/Jaime are going to be the most interesting duos to watch this season, considering those enigmatic looks they shared @ the end of season 6.
Mel,
What are “southern politics”, exactly? Both the books and the show pretty clearly demonstrate that there’s plenty of politicking in the North. Hell, the show’s version of the North is populated mostly by cravens, going by Season 6.
“She’s seemingly in control for the first time…”
Yep, she’s a goner. 😉
Clob,
oh snap
People think she’s so good at politics when she failed at that in season 6. She has no experience in governing anything. It will be a new territory for her. It’d be contrived if she was secure in dealing with what was put on her shoulders. She may just eventually find it doesn’t agree with her.
Dee Stark,
Hey Dee. I’ve been casually appearing on non-spoiler articles and it seemed to me, that people mostly cover their spoilers. As far as I am concerned, I wasn’t spoiled by anything. As for Sansa, I really hope this article doesn’t get “nasty”. I suspect she will be caught between LF and Jon… I hope she doesn’t turn a villain.
Not according to the show.
Governing is certainly a new thing, though. I hope that the plot consolidation means there’s time for some actual depth to whatever debates come up in Season 7. Though in that sense, I’m interested in what exactly the debates will be, because the North seems fairly placid at the moment.
[Leaks discussion]
Sansa and Cercei are obvious foils in this… 😉
Maybe Sansa is insecure because of her awful wig and butchered eyebrows…
I’m S-O-O-O-O looking forward to the reunions, especially Jon and Arya, the two loving Starks.
Sebaciel and Clob: I agree totally. Sophie, like many actors, sees her role as important. IMO, this interview isn’t newsy. Sansa has always been on a power trip of sorts–wanting to be queen, hobnobbing with the rich and famous, siding with the powerful against her own family, trying to learn lessons from arch-villain Littlefinger. Her desire for self-preservation is understandable, especially considering her treatment at the hands of Joffrey and Ramsay. But has she ever cared about anything or anyone other than herself? She rebuffed her family and home and only came to love them AFTER they were lost to her. Her indifference to Jon Snow evaporated the moment she learned he now commanded the NW and therefore was a potential port in the Bolton storm. And has she ever shown a drop of consideration for anyone who wasn’t high-born, perhaps other than the Winterfell crone who reminded her “The North remembers”? In S2E8, Robb tells Talisa that Ned admitted he worried about everyone–the farmers ploughing the field, the charwomen scrubbing the floors, the soldiers you lead into battle–they’re yours to protect. Ned woke up in fear and went to bed in fear–all for the well-being of his people. Ned is constantly cited by characters as the model of lordly and human behaviour. Of Ned’s children, Sansa alone never absorbed a lesson from her father, unless it’s that in the game of thrones you win or you die. She twice withheld information from Jon that could have saved thousands of lives, but she got to send Ramsay to the dogs. I doubt she’ll ever learn.
Empathy and compassion are actually two of her more important traits (in the books, at least).
Sean C.,
The way I see it:
In southern politics it’s more about who is on top, who can lie, cheat, spy and manipulate the best to bring other houses to their cause even if those houses don’t like them. There isn’t a lot of loyalty in southern houses, if someone offers them a better deal they tend to turncoat quite instantly. Also most alliances are done behind the scenes between leaders of the houses through correspondence and secret meetings. What matters in the south is money and influence. There is a reason Northerners flap around like a fish out of water in the South.
The North however tends to stick to a unmovable moral code that the northern houses stick to, mostly carried out by The Starks. Unlike Southern houses most Northern houses will dine together and have meetings and though a Stark will decide what’s best for the north, all the houses have their own opinions and views that will be considered before making a decision. What matters in the north is duty and honour. Everything did kind of fall apart after Ned and Robb were lost but now that a Stark is in Winterfell they’ve come back together. Of course there are exceptions like the Bolton’s, Umbers and Karstarks etc no matter where you go in Westeros, there will always be houses out for their own gain, there is just a bigger percentage of them in The South.
Yes, according to the show. The only time she tried politics was when she tried rallying the Mormonts and the Glovers to her cause. Not only did she fall flat on her face, the disdain Glover and Mormont had for her was evident.
lmao ok
Cover your spoilers, guys!
Sean C.,
Yes, show showed that Sansa knows very little about the North politics. Lord Glover taught her a lesson, when she tried to remind him he’s pledged to House Stark. Jon knew not to pushing it too far and his look was telling that he knew of Robb’s mistakes. Lyanna schooled them both before Davos stepping up, Sansa commented on it that he secured 62 men from a 10 year old, which is more than she does when it comes to Northern lords.
Leaks spoilers.
Frankly speaking I don’t see much time for Sansa’s power trip.
I won’t go into spoilers, but I guess I’ll better cover further speculations.
Mel,
The South has had the same largely static dynasties as the North for most of its history (other than the Riverlands). There really isn’t anything indicating that the North is somehow more collegial or more stable than the other kingdoms, even if they might fancy themselves that way. The Arryns rule the Vale much as the Starks rule the North, for instance, because they’re popular and generally good at what they do.
Young Dragon,
The showrunners view her bringing the Knights of the Vale as a brilliant political triumph that won the day. Yes, in reality, she did nothing that literally anybody else could not have done with the information she had, but that’s a result of bad writing. As far as the showrunners are concerned, she is a highly skilled player of the game of thrones (indeed, Benioff referred to her as “pretty good” at playing the game based on everything she’d done up to episode 604, let alone by the end of the season).
Geralt of Rivia,
There was nothing specifically Northern about that scene (beyond Glover’s xenophobic reference to Talisa, perhaps).
Well, she was kind to Ser Dontos Hollard, though admittedly that didn’t work out very well, especially for him.
But Joffrey did give him “as much wine as he wanted,” which isn’t a totally crappy deal. 😉
Only to ask for forgiveness for not joining them after the battle with his tail between his legs, thus acknowledging that she was right reminding him of his oath before.
IMO the writing of the Northern storyline post Ep 4 was a clusterfuck anyway. But no matter how badly it was conveyed, I got the impression that the show writers wanted us to think of Sansa as politically astute (didn’t they say so in interviews an/or the “Inside the Epidode” videos?). Learning “the game” from LF is her book arc after all, so they wanna stick to that; Bran learns magic from Bloodraven, Arya learns stuff from the Faceless Men and Sansa learns politicking from LF.
That does not make her good at ruling WF all of a sudden, but they are putting her in that position for a reason. Don’t forget that she helps take care of the Eyrie’s household in the books. She’ll learn. And I think one of the lessons might be that it’s hard to do it alone/better to share responsibilities, so I’d very much like it if Arya and Sansa came to terms and figure out that they complete each other perfectly. I quoted it before and I’ll quote it again: “You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you …”
Go She-Wolves!!! 😀
Sean C.,
I never read the showrunner’s comments on the motivations behind character actions because I make my own interpretations based on what’s presented in the show. If Benioff really said that, then I disagree. I don’t view her move with the Knights of the Vale to be particularly political. The only Northern politics I believe were presented in season 6 occurred in episode seven, when they tried to garner the northerners support. She just wasn’t really good at that.
I think it’s entirely understandable if Sansa is wary of threats to her position.
She’s been a pawn in other people’s games and politics for years, and she’s suffered massively as a result of that.
If she lets people take advantage or knock her down the pecking order then how long might it be before she’s being ignored and exploited again, or being married off to secure an alliance?
I suspect she might trust Jon not to sell her down the river like that. But even Ned was prepared to marry her to Joffrey, who he knew was a lying, cocky, spoiled little mummy’s boy, so I think she’d still be wary of losing any control over her own future and position.
And with Littlefinger hanging around meddling in their affairs and having made his intentions towards her quite clear, I wouldn’t blame her for being defensive about her position and wanting to assert her authority.
I just hope that she doesn’t misdirect her insecurities towards Jon, unless he really does something explicit to prompt such a reaction.
Vally,
She ignored what Robb did and the tone she used. It was arrogant and disrespectful to them. That’s not the way you should do it in politics, learn to speak to their possible allies. As much as I love Robb and Starks, Let’s face it, he got them killed because of who he choose to marry and not listening. Dany thankfully made a smarter choice by letting Daario behind. Robb followed his heart and ended up dead, Jon did the opposite.
They wanted to show us politically astute Sansa, a bit naive Jon in this regard. Also wanted to show us distrust between them in KitN scene but only achieved half of it and it wasn’t Sansa. Judging by their commnetary they don’t get Jon that much (people will disagree). I wonder where her arc goes from this point. Bran is lawful heir to the North and Winterfell is his, if he’ll make it back to WF. It will make things interesting.
Regardless of what D&D say or think, books, show, location, I haven’t read or watched anything that Sansa has been a part of that transfers to her being a good, competent leader that will know the proper decisions to make, what needs to be done or how to make things happen. Yes, she’s been used and manipulated, been a witness to actions by cruel people, she’s seen the results of good and bad decisions people made, but not much of what those decisions were or why those results came about. She hasn’t been directly involved in, made the decisions or promoted anything politically yet in the books imo. Keeping Littlefinger’s secrets and babysitting Robin don’t apply for me. Her first actual involvement in politics came in S6 pleading for Jon to do something and following him around as he tried, no help from her – all of it fueled by her ‘stolen’ S5 storyline. All she could add was telling people what they should or shouldn’t do while having no answers to the opposite response. Her only positive action was handed to her and saved Jon and Winterfell but done in the wrong manner and put her right back in Littlefinger’s manipulation trap.
So, has she actually learned how to be a good leader through it all? Has she learned how to manipulate people because she’s continually manipulated? Would that ability make her a good leader? If there’s a dispute between two bannermen or two Houses in the North does she know how to settle it? They can go ahead and write her story any way that they want but I still say she would have no idea what to do on her own without good advisors.
Young Dragon,
I don’t think it makes sense either, but when discussing the future of the show it makes more sense to base things on what the writers think is happening (and happened) than what I think is happening.
I think Littlefinger is, based on his actions, an imbecile, for instance, but the show clearly views him as a diabolical genius. So there’s no point in insisting that future storylines will proceed as if he is an imbecile.
Everyone involved with the show, from the writers to the actors to directors, etc., has been vocal that Sansa is established as a great player of the game now. That’s just how the people who make the show think it plays.
btw, that’s a terrible wig in the picture at the top. Oh… that’s her own hair? 😛
Here’s a prediction: Sansa meets up again with Tyrion, thinks, “This is the only guy who’s ever been 100% straight with me, and he is cute, and hey we’re already married…” and next thing you know they’re honeymooning in Myr.
Is that where whores go?
Making the 8,
I don’t get it. Sansa’s not a whore.
Catspaw Assassin,
If D&D say she is then I’ll go with it.
Catspaw Assassin,
In the books Tyrion is constantly reciting that phrase and asking people where whores go because he is looking for someone. I wasn’t calling Sansa a whore even though she spends a lot of her time with a prominent brothel owner and was spotted kissing him in the Vale while she was married to another man.
I don’t believe a word Sophie says anymore except when she says she doesn’t practice/prepare for her scenes and just shows up and reads her lines.
Vally, that’s a wonderful quote from Book 1, Ned talking to Arya IIRC. And since GRRM mainly invented Sansa as a total contrast to Arya, their polarity is easy to discern and list: Lady-Tomboy, Naive-Sharp, Genteel-Forthright, haughty-egalitarian, and so on. But here’s another quote: “I’m not like Arya,” Sansa blurted. “She has the traitor’s blood, not me. I’m good…” Sansa talking to Cersei IIRC. No other Stark would have the gall to call Ned or Robb or a sibling a traitor, even to survive among the enemy. So who is the traitor here? The other Starks would be silent or speak in euphemisms, rather than choke out the T word. And would any other Stark be flimflammed into marrying into the family that murdered Robb and Cat and usurped their home? No.
Unlike the preternaturally mature and steadfastly loyal Arya, Sansa was a child (“I’m good.”) then and show Sansa still is a child, still trying to learn how to act like a grownup, but willingly taking duplicity lessons the from the saga’s truest, most selfishly underhanded villain. And Sansa’s late determination to be a Wolf is manifested in sewing herself a new outfit festooned with a glittery Direwolf sigil. Arya is a Direwolf in her heart and soul, no matter what rags she’s wearing…especially when she has Needle. Two needles, two uses. But IMO fighting for your family vastly outweighs talent at arts and crafts. A pity that D&D have fallen into the Hollywood trap of endorsing shallow beauty despite a story in which the Game is not even held in esteem, though it is fascinating. Arya is a true leader, and if either sister deserves to rule Winterfell, it’s Arya. If both sisters survive the series, I hope that Arya walks out to seek what’s west of Westeros rather than be bossed around by her inferior.
Sean C.,
No one from the production said that that was a brilliant political triumph. Lol
Mel,
That’s the same north that helped with the red wedding or the ones that did nothing after the fact? Davos was right when he said all men are the same. The only reason the north is behind Jon is that he won. It has nothing to do with northern loyalty. That’s something that drives me crazy about all the Stark fanboys; they are the same as every other house. Or did they not conquer the north? Did their ancestors not fight the children of the forest? Did they not rule the north by force? There are no hero’s.
So excited for Sansa’s arc in S7. It will be interesting, because I’m pretty sure Jon leaves her in charge of Winterfell when he leaves for Dragonstone. By “threats”, one of them is definitely meant to imply Littlefinger. He’s going to try harder than he ever has to coerce her into betraying Jon, but I don’t believe that’ll happen. She has learned how to play games from so many people that have impacted her life up to where she is. Jon is family, and at the end of the day, I doubt she’d break the bonds of family for power.
Stannisisdead,
Sansa is like Theon, Jaime or Cersei. One of those great characters that you can love and hate at the same time. That is what made this story so great and popular.
I can respect Dany and Jon because they are the main characters, but they are just like Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Aragorn,.. They are just heroes that you are supposed to love.
Without those grey characters like Sansa, LF, Arya, Tywin.. no one would watch this show.
mau,
You need not only characters like Sansa, LF, Cersei or Jaime … but you need also heroes. What would be Star Wars without Luke Skywalker or TFA without Rey, Lord of the Rings without Aragorn? You need right mix of characters, not just a grey characters or villains. Just because some characters are inherently good, doesn’t mean they’re boring or less entertaining than villains or morally grey characters.
We can argue about Dany because plenty of people views her as a grey character, as she makes questionable choices. She is stil a hero or is supposed to be viewed in this light. Jon is closest to a traditional hero character. On the show portrayed only as a good swordsman even if he’s more than that, but that is for anoher debate.
Geralt of Rivia,
Yes, you need heroes, because you are living every story through them.
But without grey characters and villains there would be no story, no plot, no conflict at all.
In a way every hero is always reacting to the actions of other characters.
Without Sansa and Cat, the Starks would be just one big happy family.
And yes that would be boring and less entertaining.
Has she learned how to “play games” though? Maybe she’ll start to show that she can tell when someone is playing her, which so far she hasn’t been good at. She hasn’t been good at getting herself out of things on her own anyway. She hasn’t done much to show SHE can play the game either. She threatened Littlefinger and still ended up getting brought/talked/bribed back into HIS game.
I agree that Dany is better character than Harry Potter, Jon, Aragorn, Rey,… because there is something deeper, something darker about her.
I can’t find anything really “grey”about Jon. I like his character, but in a way I liked Harry Potter. The story is made in that way. Rooting for him and liking him is natural. It just makes sense.
Clob,
No, she wasn’t brought back into his game. At the end of S6 it is not yet clear who “won”.
It is not clear did LF really achieve anything by helping her and Jon.
She has WF. What he has?
mau,
What would you call it? It’s what HE wanted, so to the point we’re at she’s essentially helping his game, even if she is wary. It’s not her game. If the leaks are accurate…
mau,
Just imagine movie only about villains or grey characters without heroes? It would be boring and bleak for people. I find it interesting that people in general tends to like or appreciate villains more than heroes.
Sansa was until recent two seasons seen as a boring character. Where would be Straks without Ned. A hero and yet look how he pushed the story, Robb or Bran.
To me it is connected, Without a hero, there is no villain and vice versa. Imagine GoT without Jon and Dany. Half of the people wouldn’t even watching it. Heroes and villains react to each other and complement each other in good stories, movies. That is why Star Wars so well, LOTR or Game of Thrones work so well.
We have to disagree on this.
Geralt of Rivia,
I don’t want a story without heroes. I just say that heroes are passive element in narative.
They are reacting.
Clob,
No I don’t think that this is what he wanted. Not at all. Even if we ignore Jon and his role in WF now, Sansa didn’t show any gratitude.
In fact , she almost laughed at his dreams about her and Iron Throne.
He didn’t get anything. She played him for a fool.
I dont understand the impression that Sansa isnt happy about Jon being named King. On the ramparts she offers him their parents bedroom he when he insists that she should have it.
Then when Lyana Mormont proclaims Jon king, and everyone else joins in, Sansa is seen smiling and not looking disappointed at all. It is only when she looks over and sees Littlefinger staring at her with his stone cold expression that her smile goes away. Its more as if she is concerned about what hes thinking more than her own ego being damaged.
I just dont see this push to create animosity between her and Jon. If its there, they did a poor job of setting up with the two scenes I mentioned. Jon and Sansa have never argued about who should be king or queen or in charge for that matter. Even when discussing battle plans against Ramsay Jon defers to her as to what to do, and she admits that she doesnt really know. There hasnt been a power struggle between them at all.
Sean C.,
There is a difference between the North and the South.For example Marg was brilliant as a southern lady but what if she was in the North?They are more simple people,they don’t care about courtesies and flattery (Lyanna Mormont) and prefer strong and tough leaders than “players”. They see the game of thrones the same way they see the Seven or summer fancy knights.They spend all summer preparing for winter not playing at tourneys .Of course all other houses (lannister,Arryn etc.) are very respected and have loyal vassals as well.It’s just Northerners have their own beliefs and ways , the North it’s a country with it’s own history and traditions , but still a part of an empire ,a continent just like Dorne or every other region in Westeros. The North is a bit more unique because they didn’t abandon the old ways of the first men (like they did in the South) and because of their cold weather they have different priorities. It’s like Europe.If you succeed as a politician in one European country doesn’t mean that your talents will make you successful in every European country.Look at Ned, he was a brilliant leader in the North but he didn’t survived long in the South.Also it makes sense for them to want a man of honor as a leader because they loved Ned and they praise him as a ruler(highborn and common alike).In the West for example they probably want someone like Tywin because the region became stronger than ever under his watch.
Clob, Sansa learned to lie. Arya was taught to lie. In the end, Arya rejected it and I suspect Sansa will accept it. That might be what Sansa has learned about how to be a playa. The Starks 2.0 won’t all be dead honorable Neds or Goth, more like Emo.
Incidentally, Jon is much less “grey” (or more Mary Sue-esque) in the books… I agree with you, without the grey characters, the show would be like so many other shows of “all-too-good” heroes against “all-too-bad” villains.
mau,
Not initially but he’s a ‘veteran’ and adjusts his plan accordingly. His first alteration was to maneuver the troops he’s suckered his was into command of to what he feels is his best possible position by way of Sansa’s continued nievity and need. He is now in relative safety in Winterfell where he should be hanged at once for the things he’s done to the House. While things aren’t going smoothly for him he’s still playing his game. It can be assumed that he’ll eventually be caught and lose the game once and for all but it won’t be because of a brilliant checkmate from Sansa on her own.
I think people sometimes concentrate way to much on the behind the scenes features to try and understand what is happening within the show.
D&D are unreliable narrators, and they are unreliable narrators on purpose. You dont really need to watch all of these inside the episode breakdowns to understand the show. Of course it is interesting to watch, and you can learn or see something new and there is often bits and pieces that you didn’t notice, or that provides you with extra information. But D&D specifically, has been doing this for years, this isn’t the first time they say something but you see something completely different on screen.
They have their own reasons and agenda’s to say something or to focus on some aspects. From their perspective it isn’t much of a problem, whatever they tell the audience, since it usually just creates more interest and discussion.
From what I ve seen if you want to understand what you see, then you mostly need to analyse the actions of the characters. You cant just analyse what they say, because characters are also sometimes unreliable narrators.
Most of the discussions after season 6 was headed by the potential Stark power struggle. Most of these discussions came about because of what D&D said, or with what Sophie Turner said.
But if you actually watch the scene where Jon is crowned as the King in the North, then it looks more as if Sansa is concerned about what Littlefinger might do.
And of course we have basically already discovered that most of what they have been saying on the subject is completely redundant, since we can see from all of the pictures that was posted on here that Jon will spent a lot of time in the South.
It is best to trust what you actually see on screen, or during the show. This is not the first time I ve noticed it, if you go back and watch what D&D says I am sure people will find that they often disagree with them or the actors. It is definitely something that I ve found for myself.
Going by what has happened on the show, Sansa does not really have an arc for ruling. Politics and ruling are two completely different things.
I guess she could go against some instructions that Jon leaves for her or gives to her, or something like that.
I think it would be hilarious if she tried something like arranging marriages for Bran and Arya.
Rygritte,
Yeah, maybe she did, but that doesn’t mean she’s learned how to be a good, competent leader either. She can lie, at least to cover an action by another, but that doesn’t show she has any idea of what she’s doing, or if said lie is a benefit or detriment to her.
Geralt of Rivia,
Each Stark sibling has his/her strengths and weaknesses. I think the big point will be they need to band together, but it looks like season 7 will be more of their trying to reconnect after going through so many changes apart.
LF may want Sansa, but Sansa doesn’t want him or his picture. And working against Jon, which is probably what he’s going to do, isn’t necessarily what Sansa wants either. If she really wanted to rule, she would’ve taken Winterfell when Jon offered it to her. It will be important for her to prove herself to the North in her own right, though, after it was so obvious they see her only as an opportunist by marrying Tyrion and Ramsay (damn, how sheltered are those people anyway?!?)
Clob, Right, her transformation may be subtle from a little dove to a crow, not a falcon. A Stark will finally learn something. Yay! The Hound will be so proud.
Making the 8,
Doh! That went right over my head.
Rygritte,
I agree with you. Sansa need not become the next Littlefinger or the next Margaery… It would be boring if instead of having her own personal growth (as imperfect and flawed as it might be), she would just become like a version someone else.
Rygritte,
Speaking of the Hound and Sansa… I’ve never been one of those shippers, but I am very curious to see how they would get along at this point. Hopefully we’ll get to find out. I’d think Sansa may see him in quite a different way and not fear him as she did after dealing with a true monster. Sandor has changed quite a bit since they last saw each other as well, at least in the way of personal interaction… maybe. 🙂
Every house plays politics, as we’ve repeatedly seen throughout both the series and the books. Northerners definitely fancy themselves better than other people, but they aren’t. Davos outright remarked, men are the same everywhere.
And Davos did flatter Lyanna Mormont, he just did it better than Jon or Sansa did.
The “gall”, really?
They have been known to use misdirection to tease future developments, etc. When they’re talking about stuff that’s already happened, what they think of the characters’ motivations, etc., they aren’t deceptive. Moreover, as far as Sansa’s Season 6 story goes specifically, it’s crystal clear from 609 how we’re supposed to feel about Sansa at the end, with the soundtrack triumphantly blaring as the Knights of the Vale arrive, the shots of her smiling, the one-on-one final scene with Ramsay, and later Jon giving the credit for the victory to her. It’s presented as Sansa’s masterstroke. Which is why, when you look at casual viewers, reviews, etc., it has been interpreted that way, by and large. And that’s why all the show’s cast and crew have talked about it in similar terms.
In the BTS video of that episode where Arya tries to get rid of her sword, but can’t and ends up hiding it instead, The showrruners also said that Needle represents vengeance, lol. And I think we know all too well that Needle represents her home, her family and most of all her dear brother. If you go through the comment section on this video you’ll see people’s outrage regarding their comments. And the same goes for Sansa. They’ve failed in make people believe she’s a good player.
jdtargstark,
That would be an instance where the showrunners have their own view of things — and they love revenge as a motivation. Hell, since Sansa’s being discussed here, Show Sansa is all about revenge, something that the book character has no meaningful taste for (flashes of anger like any normal person, sure).
If you look at reviews, casual fans, etc., the showrunners have succeeded at making most viewers think Sansa’s a good player, because she dresses cool, gets all the “badass” shots in the battle, etc., glowers at people, all the trappings. That’s enough, for most people.
While I fully intend to avoid social media and comment sections like the plague during next year’s off season, I’m eternally grateful to have the translations of Sophie’s teaser interviews for Season 7 in advance. I can only imagine how many comments this thread would have generated if these statements had been made back in September.
I’m not really interested in debating “grey characters” and “Mary Sues” and “traditional heroes,” since in this fandom Mary Sue/Gary Stu is just code for “protagonist,” and “character I personally dislike.” And then it gets confusing because my favorites list contains both irredeemable assholes and decent people alike, and I didn’t realize that it was impossible to be interested in both or that all morally grey actions performed by “white hats” are immediately nullified in the interest of shoving them into lazily constructed boxes. I’ll just stick with finding complexity and depth on both ends of the spectrum. I haven’t really noticed any stock characters in this series so much as predictably one-note and superficial readings of the characters most commonly accused of being such.
I’m more interested in whether or not there will be any hint of Sansa perceiving the big picture this season or if she thinks preparing for the long night should be back-burnered. I would think that a reasonable person who knew that an ice apocalypse was coming might give her priorities a bit of a rejig. The Night King won’t particularly give a crap who’s running Winterfell when he shows up to “recruit” its people.
Hursta1,
I agree Starks and north fandboys acting as if they are superior to everyone else is the worst
konna,
Yes they don’t play tourneys but what they consider as game tend to be more barbaric in nature and deadly than a tourney. Which results in increase in body count . Remember the scene greywind biting greyjon hand and he laughing it off.lunatics is what thr word comes to mind .there is a reason why they are considered savages by others in westeros .
That’s just an opinion though, that ‘grey’ characters are better than the good ones. Others might view it differently. In a world like Westeros where being “grey” is actually far easier than remaining “good”, I would put greater value on the good characters. I think all these characters complement each other well, that’s why this story is so great, not just because of the “grey” characters.
I also don’t understand the assumption that being grey means that there is something deeper in them. I don’t think Jon is shallower than Sansa or Dany, but whatever.
Of course the inclusion of grey characters make this a well rounded story (I love all of them Jaime, Sansa, Theon and Cersei), but you cannot ignore the contribution that the “good” characters bring in making this story a success either. You said nobody would watch this show if it were not for characters like Sansa, Jaime, Theon, Cersei. Maybe that’s true, but how many people would have watched this show if it were not for characters like Jon, Dany and Tyrion (Tyrion in the books is grey, on the show he is “good”. Killing an abusive father and a backstabbing lover doesn’t change this).
A Dornish Tyrell,
Oh look, we are back to “Mary Sue”. I did not realize that all one needs to do to become a “Mary Sue” is try to do good lol.
Sean C.,
First, “revenge is bad very bad very very bad do not do it cuz it is bad bad bad bad” is an agonizingly obvious and overdone theme in the books, so the fact that the show is using it should not be surprising.
Then, in defense of Sansa, I think she proved herself a better player than Jon, last season. She didn’t let Jon have the Vale, imo because she did not trust him. His behavior during the Battle of the Bastards proved that she was right to feel that way. She waited until he was too weak to fuck things up further, then sent in the Vale.
Then she humanely fed Ramsay’s dogs, who were very hungry.
maria,
I didn’t say it wasn’t in the books. I said, in response to somebody citing showrunner comments about Needle that sound rather different from what the book says, that it’s even more present in the show.
maria,
I’m of the opinion that Sansa screwed Jon over seven ways to Sunday in the BoB. She didn’t tell him about the Vale army because…reasons? That kind of would have been helpful information in formulating his battle strategy. And she bitched about him not including her in his strategy sessions, but she was right there. If she cared so much, why didn’t she speak up with her thoughts? Because she felt like being petulant? And then he flat out asks her for advice, but what she gives him isn’t presented in an actionable manner, so I don’t know why people pat her on the back for her insight. If that’s Sansa being politically smart, I don’t buy what D&D were selling.
Hmmm…. out of all the familiar locations in the seven Kingdoms, isn’t Winterfell the closest to the WWs? So how come Sophie didn’t talk about Sansa finding out and reacting about the WW threat and what she is planning to do about that? Why would Sansa indulge in a power trip when life itself is at stake? Are the Wildlings the only ones concerned about the WWs in the North?
Because the show hasn’t given Sansa any reaction to all that, one assumes.
bran,
Interesting take on laughing at losing fingers. Makes sense. His reaction always bugged me.
maria,
So based on your ‘interpretation’ she sends her brother, who trusts her and only got involved into this messy war because she went to the Wall, who has died and come back to life traumatized to die again? Such a “great” sister! lmfao Honestly that makes her stupid (not Cersei levels of dumb, but close enough). You don’t do that to your allies and especially your commander and last family member. The only people she has who are genuinely trying to help and protect her are Brienne and Jon and yet she sends off one of them to war to die without telling him she has troops coming and prepare accordingly.
How does Jon saving Rickon prove he’s untrustworthy? He was one of the main reasons Jon even agreed to fight lmfao. Of course he was going to save his brother. In the same episode he tells Sansa he’ll protect her and she goes all dramatic on him saying nobody can protect her. Funny, considering the reason she even escaped to the Wall was because Jon was the only one who could protect her. Jon trying to save Rickon tells you he would have done the same for all his siblings, Sansa included. It shows he is trustworthy. I’m sure she would have been pissed if she had been in Rickon’s place and Jon hadn’t rushed to save her lmfao.
Look, the only reason this whole mess happened on the show was not because she’s some ‘smart player’, but because D&D sent her North too early, got backlash for the Ramsay rape and, most importantly, wanted the Vale army to be a surprise even though most viewers already knew they were coming with Littlefinger. The rallying of the Vale was all done by Littlefinger, but because you have shots of her smirking to epic music in the background people are tricked into thinking she did everything lmfao.
Kay,
She didn’t even react to her brother dying and coming back to life, so I doubt we’ll see her worrying about WW too much tbqh.
maria,
That does seem to be the most popular Sansa fanfic reading of Season 6 at the moment, but she’s proven no such thing. The veritable genius who thought the Karstarks would side with her, who thought her name alone would compel the northerners to fight for her, who failed to recruit a single person to her cause, who trashed-talked a man who was infinitely more skilled than her in recruiting northern houses, who trusted the man who sold her to her rapist over the brother who took her in and risked his life for her, and who held vital information from the commander of the army fighting to take her home back has proven herself to be more of a liability than Jon could ever hope to be. Nothing he did on that battlefield justifies Sansa’s irresponsibility or consistently piss poor judgement of character, and quite frankly, when you have to resort to painting the character who the author and show runners explicitly singled out as a natural leader as a trainwreck in order to prop her up because of one mistake, it says quite a bit more about her own deficiencies than it does about his.
NinaD,
Agree about the Starks.
Jon was not in position to give her anything. He was just a bastard and then choosen by people to rule. It will be about how Sansa can manage to rule and overcome difficulties from he point of view whether from her own family or outsiders like LF. She owes him and it seems she might even trust him at some point. I hope she plays and betrays him like he did with Ned.
They’re placing her to learn to rule by obvious choice, so she might have a purpose in the future in a bigger scale than just the North and ruling them.
maria,
Looks like we both watched a different season 6 and how it went with Jon and Sansa.
maria,
Sansa didn’t tell Jon about the Vale because the plot required it. That’s ultimately what it comes down to.
It’s another instance where the writers have a very different view of the stakes compared to, well, what a rational analysis of the plot would suggest. The writers’ view appears to be that Sansa’s not telling Jon was a trust issue on her part. But crucially, the consequences of this, as indicated by the show itself, don’t amount to anything beyond showing that Sansa has trust issues with Jon and that may or may not prefigure greater problems later on in the story. The writers do not think, in other words, that Sansa not telling Jon about the knights leads to the deaths of thousands of loyal soldiers and nearly gets Jon himself killed. Jon’s reaction to the whole matter in 609/610 would be completely lunatic if that was the case, which is why he rather humbly credits Sansa with the victory and then insists that they need to trust each other going forward, as opposed to, say, screaming at her and having her thrown in the dungeon for calamitous stupidity.
Clob,
I’m not expecting much more than him serving her House. I was disappointed with her reunion with Jon since I was most looking forward to their reactions to info like Arya’s still alive, but at least we’ll get to read about their reactions…maybe.
Sansa: You’re alive.
Hound: Need a gravedigger?
Sansa: I need a hundred black coffins.
This is what I am hoping for. If we see Sansa “ruling” Winterfell in Jon’s absence, we still have a young woman who is angry and bitter. Understandably but her place is in question, more so in her own mind. She went from Stark to Lannister to Bolton and now, back to Stark. But in her heart and mind, I think she is a confused, broken mess. Jon isn’t even a Stark and he rules her family home (not that she would deny him this) and Littlefinger plants seeds that emphasize those doubts about her place in the north. Enter Arya, who at the end of Season 6 solidified her “Stark-ness” and determination to be no one BUT a Stark. She is heading home. She has no question where she belongs, though she may want to make some revenge stops along the way. I would love to see Arya be the one to remind her of who, and where, she is and act as a buffer almost. Sansa isn’t a fool but Arya is the clever one. She can smell bullshit. She would be a great “right hand”.
And I echo a few comments here about the writers and Sansa. They really haven’t shown her to be a “player”. She lied to keep LF alive after Lysa’s death and I thought that was the start of her lessons (keeping people confused so they don’t know what you want). She agreed, half-hearted, to marry Ramsay to get back into WF and do Littlefingers bidding from the inside. She kept her head down and mouth shut, as much as she could, in King’s Landing. Other than that, she really hasn’t been shown to manipulate a situation or command attention/respect. That is sort of what I hoped Season 5 would be about. Alas, didn’t happen and that is okay (merging storylines and all that) but I do feel the writers dropped the ball on showing Sansa as a gamer.
And I AM one of those SanSan shippers. Yep. I don’t expect this to go anywhere show-wise, believe me, but I would love to see them reunite (as much as I would enjoy Sandor/Arya reuniting) because the last time they saw each other, he was her first offer for protection and safety. She knew he wouldn’t harm her. Seeing him now would probably bring that back (what could’ve been, what she could have avoided possibly) and there might be a bit of a reality check in there, seeing as Sandor knows more about LF and his dealings than even Sansa (he has been around the capital a lot longer). Sansa needs people she can trust. She trusts Brienne (though that didn’t take much convincing) and she trusts Jon. If Jon leaves, Brienne not around, she definitely needs someone else on her side.
Sansa is definitely in an ambiguous place psychologically, but she was never a Lannister or a Bolton in her own mind. She’s always been a Stark. She was forced to marry a Lannister, and married Ramsay only as part of a (stupid) plan to get revenge on him (or else was sold to him, as she accused Littlefinger of doing in Season 6; whether that’s what the show wants us to think or not, I have no idea).
Sandor and Arya are the two I’d love to see interact again. They certainly have some things to say to each other! “Thanks so much for leaving me dying in a ditch.” “Well it doesn’t seem as you’re dead, does it? Maybe I should have…” “Shut up.”
I have no interest in yet another character I care about swear fealty to Sansa for whatever reason. Girl needs to earn respect, not get it for simply ‘being’. Sansa is and has always been vain and entitled, and Sandor deserves better use of what’s left of his life. *LEAKS*
Doran,
Just what is it that makes some people expect more from Sansa?? I mean, show only.
maria,
Whatever, but I’m curious about one thing. Over the months I keep seeing where people discuss whose the better “player.” Player this and player that. Well I want to know just what “game” ya’ll think Jon and/or Sansa is playing? After all, they are not going after the throne so why do folks talk like everyone in this show is playing a certain game when in fact some of the characters arcs are them just trying to survive, live life, get to safety, learning to fight, learning about the past, etc. Is it because it’s called “Game of thrones” which make people believe all characters are playing a game for a throne because I know Jon wasn’t, Bran isn’t, Arya hasn’t….
Flayed Potatoes,
How anybody can be negative about a character who is compassionate, selfless, brave, honest and always tries to do what’s right in favor of a girl who hasn’t shown any of these qualities in the last couple seasons is beyond me. I don’t hate Sansa but I find her a bit snotty. Jon is the better person by far.
Catspaw Assassin,
I sure hope you’re right! Sanrion ftw!!
Clob,
You you can’t say what LF got from all this and how he played Sansa? Good.
I agree with this – while Jon riding out to try and save Rickon goes completely off-plan and almost loses them the battle, it shows the Northmen that Jon cares about Rickon. Davos tells Jon in the strategy meeting that the North will be watching – what they see is Jon riding out, desperately trying to save the life of his younger brother; they see him leading from the front, and not asking his men to do something he isn’t willing to do himself, and this is a huge part of why they crown Jon as King in the North. Bizarrely, going as off-plan as he does actually raises Jon’s standing with the Northmen. He almost loses them the battle, but he does so in a way that makes the Northmen respect him.
That said, as far as Sansa is concerned – when she and Brienne discuss the mission to the Blackfish, Brienne asks Sansa why she lied about the source of the information. Sansa has no answer for her, and I think that is partly because Sansa has spent years in a position where she has been forced to lie, to live behind a mask, in order to survive. Lies have, sadly, become second nature to her and she does it automatically, without considering the situation. She has become used to telling people what they want to hear, hiding behind her courtesies. That is how she has survived this long. I am intrigued to see what happens in season seven – I hope that, as Arya ultimately did in season six, she will choose family in the end.
While I am first and foremost a Jon fan, I love Sansa too and I think there are lots of reasons why people root for her. Since you mention the last 2 seasons specifically, well she has constantly shown bravery. Her decision to marry Ramsay and live with the Boltons to avenge her family was brave (you can question the logic and the intelligence behind this, but it still was a brave decision, after all she has been through she was willing to risk more harm). Despite repeated rape, battering and abuse she did not break. She repeatedly confronted and badgered Theon, refusing to even let him touch her, for killing her brothers, which shows the amount of feeling she had for her dead (as she thought at that time) brothers. The only reason Reek turned into Theon was her. If not for her, he would have continued to be Reek, so she saved him as much as he saved her.
She apologized to Jon for her earlier treatment of him and after the battle was won, she told him that he was a Stark to her and also told him that he should take the Lord’s chambers, where she had nothing to gain from that. She definitely loves Jon, but unfortunately because of her past experiences, she is in a place where she is unable to completely trust anyone. It is a mistake on her part to not trust Jon fully of course, but it’s an understandable mistake and hopefully going ahead she will finally choose loyalty to her family over everything else.
She does have compassion and empathy, but in the last season the writers chose to give more focus on her being a “player” instead. However, I don’t think they have convincingly shown that Sansa now knows how to “play the game” and if that is where her arc is supposed to head, they will need to set it up in a more convincing manner.
ghost of winterfell,
No, but it matters “the way” you try to be good… Compare how Jon magnanimously spares Ygritte’s life in the books to how it happens in the show, where Ygritte takes advantege of a moment of hesitation when Jon has to execute her. That doesn’t make Jon stupid or weak. It makes him, in my opinion, a more human (and thus layered) character. I, and I know this could sound anathema to some people, prefer the show version of Jon to his book counterpart.
I applaud Jon’s struggles to be a good person and to do what is right for all. It’s easy to be enamoured of such a character (and despite what some people tearing up their clothes might think, I like him). It’s much harder though, to like characters like Theon or Jaime for instance, for whom, as Stannis would put it, “a good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good.” That’s what’s make “grey characters”, in my opinion, much more intriguing. This opinion need not be shared by you, and that’s just fine.
Alba Stark,
D&D told us in the Inside the Episode segment why she lied to him. They said “Littleginger still has a hold on her.” So yeah people are thinking for some reason that the stuff she’s learning from Cersei and Littlefinger is somehow helping her become a better person or some political genius, but it’s really corrupting her, which is far more realistic and expected. What kind of wisdom would you really use from the likes of Cersei who pisses off allies and houses everywhere she goes? (coincidentally what Sansa did in season 6 lmao) And Littlefinger is definitely someone you shouldn’t try to emulate and the fact that he’s most likely going to die because of his petty games is proof of that. There’s a time and place to hold cards to your chest and that was not the time and you can screw yourself over by overplaying.
elybe,
Nobody can write fanfic at the level Sansa fans write it. You’ve got to admire the creativity I guess lol.
Her wanting to go to the Karstarks still cracks me up and she was proven wrong by a southerner who “doesn’t know the north, but knows people” lmao. And then she complains that Davos is Jon’s most trusted adviser. If it wasn’t for Davos, Sansa and her posse would be rolling to Jon’s funeral. But she talked smack about an old guy what a gr8 political playa!111 /sarcasm
Looking forward to Sansa’s arc this season
As I’ve said before I reckon she takes power in Riverlands and Vale and becomes the “Younger Queen” who takes out Cersei
A Dornish Tyrell,
I have no problems if you like the show version more, lol. Both versions have different merits and I love both of them. But book Jon is in no way a Mary Sue sorry. That’s the only part I took objection to. Sure the book version may not have goofed up the way show version did (Btw, in both versions Jon magnanimously spares Ygritte’s life, she escapes from him only after he had lowered his sword), but there are many many instances where he shows that he is just as human as any other character. Whether it’s the fact that he has a burning ambition to be the Lord of Winterfell which he struggles to suppress, whether it is beating up Iron Emmett senseless just because he remembered Robb calling him a bastard, whether it was consciously making a decision to choose Arya over his duty and oaths, whether it is actively breaking his oath by interfering in the matters of the realm, plus there are so many other instances, which show him struggling with his feelings and decisions just like any other character. The one difference is that book Jon has shown himself to be quite knowledgeable when it comes to the Northern houses and politics. And if he is to rule from somewhere one day, this is actually necessary you know.
Of course I know Jon is easier to like than say, Jaime and Theon and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, I love them both myself. But I have seen a lot of people who prefer these “grey” characters dismiss characters like Jon by calling him “Mary Sue” and “Saint Jon” etc, which imo is not an accurate description. At All.
There is no such questions in her heart or mind as far as book goes, and from what I see in show no questions there either.
In book we see her thoughts, her actions; she starts off naive yet we see pieces of a person who can defuse situations, Darry between Joffry and Renly, her lack of judgment in not telling the King what she saw, her playing the middle trying to avoid a conflict only to get her wolf killed, or disobeying her father to go say goodbye which got her and Jeyne captive ( may still had happened, but they had a slim chance removed because of her action ) we see her trying to use the only skills she could to save her father, we see and read her thoughts and actions on traitors bridge, in book she never bent the knee to the Lannisters, Tells Tyrion she would never want him.
At the BOBW she actually acted more Queenly then Cersei, her refusal not to go with Clegane was actually a wise choice based on what she knew of the battle, he was drunk and in the book he held a knife to her throat, Edmures actions and Robb’s lack of informing Edmure fully caused Tywin to rush back to KL to defeat Stannis, who was at the gates and entering the keep.
Unlike in the show at the Eyrie Sansa herself tells us who she is as LF is asking her to play his daughter and him wanting only Lies and Arbour Gold.
In show we have her explaining why she lied for LF, she didn’t trust the Vale leaders as in book ( in book it’s because they didn’t help Robb). In show SHE made the choice just as she told them her name where as in book she was coerced by LF implicating her in his plans.
Everything changed once the show runners ripped her story for more emotions.
Now they have to put that story back together and like the Humpty-Dumpty song, it can’t be fixed totally.
She has trust issues, fear issues, she sees LF not being happy and knows he is going to cause problems, but she is missing important information we don’t know how that will work out in book, in show it looks like the LEAKS are pointing in a certain direction.
Priscila,
Are you joking? That a ridiculous comment to make based on one picture you have seen of her.
Her eyebrows haven’t changed and the wig looks exactly the same as her normal hair in that ONE photo.
Flayed Potatoes,
ugh, see. good thing I skipped most of the “plot speculation” related comments.
sucks
Clob,
hahahaha
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
That’s how I have truly felt..
But LF will try to turn her against Jon.
Flayed Potatoes,
she probably did, but it was off screen.
She wasn’t there when he died and came back to life. She came back to him and he was alive. so I am sure he told her what happened and im sure she reacted with shock and thankful he is alive again. but ALL their conversations about what had happened to them were off screen
Dee Stark,
Good thing you skipped them. This post isn’t safe.
Flayed Potatoes,
okay, thank you
I shall leave 🙂
Just to be clear, I said “more Mary Sue-esque” not totally one… But you are right that it might probably not be the best descriptor for (book or show) Jon. He does indeed have ambitions (which is not necessarily a bad trait… unless you combine it with amorality and ruthlessness, à la Littlefinger) and he also disregards important advices which end up backfiring (in the show at least). I know many people have harshly criticized Jon (or the writers for that matter) for these perceived flaws that somehow tarnish his character… I actually like him more because of that. I find characters that don’t make any mistakes kind of boring (again, totally subjective opinion).
I think you nailed it here.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Yeah perfect characters who make no mistakes are pretty unrealistic and not very interesting. Fortunately, I don’t find any character in the show or books to be that. Even the good guys, be it Ned, Robb or Jon made quite a few big mistakes which led to their downfall.
I don’t really find any character on the show boring, except maybe for Ramsay lol.
Sean C.,
bran,
I agree with both of you.I guess i put it the wrong way but what i was trying to say was ,they may not be better or worse than Southerners but they are very different.The have a different culture. The Northerners follow the Old ways, the Ironborn have their own traditions (the iron way?) ,the Dornish are deeply influenced by the Rhoyner(ish?) culture. The rest of the South have Andal(ly?) traditions and customs.The 7K became a single kingdom only 300 years ago. Sansa have always favored her mother’s culture (although the North and Ned had an influence in Cat) , unlike her brothers and rebellious sister.She learned to survive the Southern court and it’s snakes.She learned the game from Littlefinger but as one of you said ,in the North they play different games. Making Jon a king was a set-back to Petyr’s plans , he is out of his comfort zone.Of course,given time the master of manipulation will find a way to adapt.
Mine was High Sparrow. All but a couple of his scenes were insufferable for me. A few of them in season six were too long and momentum killers for the episode imo. Any time I watch those episodes now I fast forward through them.
Flayed Potatoes,
100% agree about the Vale.It was all Littlefinger.If she had sent a letter to Robin or lord Royce or used her name and blood (Robin’s cousin) to win the Vale’s allegiance i would have happily call her a player. But she didn’t, it was all a part of Petyr’s grand scheme .She does have Petyr’s affection (something useful ) but we can’t give her credit for that either ,since the only thing she has done to win his affection is to be born with the right color of hair.If Arya was in the capitol with Sansa , Littlefinger would have left her there to rot.
Who is only still alive because she decided to lie to the Lords of the Vale in the first place.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
I would like ur comment a 100x if i could! U said everything I have been thinking since the story began! I understand fans who like Sansa but I can’t ever comprehend how people want her to be Queen or Ruler of the North. Aside from Cersei and Little Finger, shes the last main character I would ever want as a Queen; not because shes a terrible person, but because she lacks the thoughtfulness and sense of self-sacrifice that needs to exist in a ruler. Ruling is not just sitting on a throne saying out commands. Its about caring for all people including the poor, u need to work to improve their conditions and protect them from harm even if its at ur expense. Sansa’s actions last season mirrored that of Cersei whereby she sentenced hundreds if not thousands of innocent men who had sworn to defend her house to death by tricking them into thinking that there is no help coming. No matter how u try to spin it, her actions showed that she held no regard to these men. In fact, she expected these men to serve her and die at her command.
I understand why Sansa wants to be queen now..she has been abused over and over by people in power so she believes that she should be the one in power to protect herself..but that doesnt make her a suitable person to rule who actually cares for the welfare of others. This is particularly the case when she is someone who has continuously shown disregard and even distaste to those below her in status.
Clob,
Yeah those monologues seemed to just go on and on lol. I think his scenes could have done with some editing and the precious screentime given somewhere else. The KL scenes until the finale felt a bit repetitive. Maybe the fact that it was Jonathan Pryce influenced the screentime given to that character.
IMO the only people who are spinning this matter are those like you who read far too much into it in order to find yet another reason to villify this character.
And of course she expected the lieges to fight, so did Robb, so did Jon and so did Lyanna Mormont. That’s how this system works.
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
Rewatch Sansa’s face after they start proclaiming Jon the King in the North…
My interpretation about Sansa in season 6 (sorry for my english).
Sansa didn’t trust Jon with the information about Lf and the Vale because of her trauma and her experiences with the game players, in two different cases. But they have a common ground. Τhe theme of trust.
Firstly, at Castle Black:
In Sansa’s mind, Jon knows that Lf sold her to the Boltons so maybe Jon will reject every consideration of Lf or information Lf will give because of family-honor etc which leads to the same outcome. Or Jon is desperate enough after his resurrection he will accept Lf from the start and maybe Lf will betray them to the Boltons or Lannisters.
Sansa didn’t trust LF motives and she didn’t know how Jon will react or if he would listen. Would they had took Sansa seriously although when she told them that she has the Stark name, they looked at her with surprise? What the others can say about Lf’s motives? She was the one who leaved with him. She didn’t want to rely on Lf because of fear of betrayal and shame. For the first time she has some control on her fate and she keeps secrets like she learnt. When they said that they need more men, she sent Brienne to verify Lf’s information about the Blackfish.
Secondly, after she sent the letter to Lf:
It’s a risk that she was forced to take and may lead to betrayal or maybe Lf won’t come. If Lf will come, she prefers to play the role of surprise to overcome Ramsay’s tricks. She doesn’t want Jon to know because Jon would fall into a trap or he would make useless negotiations with Ramsay for an already dead (as she believes) Rickon, using an army he can’t control and might not come and he would ruin the surprise. Or Jon would not trust Lf to come or not betray them so he wouldn’t wait because of bad weather as he said which leads to the same outcome. Sansa didn’t trust Jon’s judgment because of his understatement of Ramsay and his vulnerability about Rickon.
Sansa doesn’t control the knights of the Vale. Lf controls the army and the Vale. She knows that. The viewers know that. The plan to arrive at last minute was his as he had told to Cersei in season 5.
Sansa apologised based on the outcome. Because Littlefinger really helped them in the end and she wasn’t honest.
Control of the information, do what’s necessary like she swallowed her pride and took risks, judge and observe the situation, judge and foresee some movements of the enemy. These are elements of a player but she is NOT a perfect one yet. She is learning all the time. But she was free to try only in season 6. Her “play” in season 6 wasn’t always conscious and it was formed by her trauma, years of observation, fear and determination.
konna,
This is nonsense. To pretend the north is different or somehow superior to every where else is ridiculous. It ignores the fact that the north betrayed and murdered their king. I know it wasn’t all the northern houses but none of them did a thing to stop it or avenge it. They also told Jon to hit the road when he needed their help and only joined him after he won and they had no other choice. The Starks conquered the north just like Aegon did the rest of Westeros. They fought against the children of the forest and were responsible for the creation of the WW in an indirect manner. They allowed people to be skinned alive.for how long? No the north is no different than anywhere else except that their distorted ideas of honor make them easy to manipulate. Maybe more of them would be alive had they been a little more “southern”.
Flayed Potatoes,
No that little bit of theater should have killed Jon and all his allies. How can an entire nation be expected to back a guy who puts his own needs and desires ahead of everyone else?
Hursta1,
You’re talking about Jon or? If so, Rickon was the reason they all went there. It wasn’t his desires and needs. They’re going to rescue last known male heir to Ned Stark, later on Jon raced to save him. Mistake but a human one and in character. To fight off the Boltons for the sake of everyone. Shamefully, on the show The North Remembers is kinda of lost, unlike book version. They’re loyal to Starks in the books, but they wanted LF and the Vale to play a big part and then set up season 7 plot.
Targaryens have also a lot to say in this. It might’ve been their dragons that awaken ww. Magic being brought back. Not just Starks who I think have some sort of connection to white walkers. Not like northerners betrayed their King that many times as people in the South did theirs and murder whole families. Not like Southern style is that fitting for Northerners also.
Hursta1,
In all fairness, the North was in a dire situation after the Red Wedding: a whole army was wiped out, leaving the doors open for an Ironborn invasion. The Boltons, although traitors, helped other Northern Houses to retake their castles and lands. We know all this after hearing Lord Glover’s grievances and refusal to join Jon’s and Sansa’s cause… They were in no position to oppose Bolton rule. And when they tried, they were skinned alive (remember Lord Cerwyn, his wife and his brother).
The North had real grievances against the Starks, that’s undeniable. But it is also true that they set aside their beloved sense of honor and loyalty when they had the chance to show it… Only to show it again with flare when the retake of Winterfell was a fait accompli. So, in that sense, the Northeners fancy themselves better than they trully are.
I don’t think she didn’t tell Jon because she felt he do useless negotiations, it comes down to her experiences:
LF is totally untrustworthy, we and Sansa see this in KL,getting her out of KL, on the boat to the Vale, at the Vale, in the inn with Brienne, overlooking Moat Calin, the results of Ramsey in WF and even at Molesrown.
Then the ‘Pink Letter ‘ what she knows now is Jon like her is suffering his form of PTSD he’s died knows there is nothing after death and wants to shy away from confrontation, doesn’t want to believe that Rickon is a prisoner everything to this point and just before the parley Sansa had no real reason to bring LF into it, once she saw Umber throw down Shaggy’s head I think she was thinking exactly what I thought, Ramsey already killed Rickon, hence we get “you’re going to die tomorrow Lord Bolton, sleep well” and she runs off.
We do not know if she went directly to look for the Vale army or it was after the tent scene but it was in the tent scene she should had brought it up, with all her feelings of distrust for LF, and if Jon still won’t wait she could have still ran off at night to get them but Jon could make a plan, whether, he stick to it who knows.
Sansa was also correct on how Ramsey messes with people, she just wasn’t at the battle when it began because she would have shit her dress seeing Rickon dragged out onto the battlefield.
As far as her reaction over Rickon, she cried over Ned,Robb and Cat, I think she tried all she could to get Jon to WF and get the Blackfish, I think it comes down to she is exhausted emotionally and she excepted the fate of Rickon.
Will there be a conflict next year, yup! do I think she will side with LF no, the GW scene, that look at LF in WF, she’s worried what’s next and from what we know in the LEAKED stuff it will be more layers that she will have to sort out, and she will need help, she can’t do it alone.
Hursta1,
Well the truth is the South and King’s Landing are always described as a pit of snakes while the North is all about honor and doesn’t want any part in the politics of the 7K. Winterfell is always described as being a safer location and sh*t hit the fan the moment the Starks went South. When Jon wanted to kill Ramsay, most of the northern Houses refused the call because they didn’t want to get more involved in the crossfire between the Starks and Boltons who were on good terms with the Lannisters before Roose was killed. The Stark family is probably the single most politics involved northern house. They didn’t chose to be but they are.
The rest of the northeners just don’t give a crap about that. That’s not to say the North is way superior to the South, just less interested in power, less money hungry and definitely less affected by greed and corruption.
Hursta1,
You are partly right about the North, but you haven’t taken into account one key element. The North is the only part of Westeros which has been facing an external threat for centuries and centuries. Of course, the Wildlings have never been a serious threat but still they kept the North more or less mobilized and aware of the fact that it has to hold together. And therefore the North has developed its culture around these military values of all for one and one for all which remained in effect despite of everything. Meanwhile the south (or rather the central part of Westeros, because Dorne is a different animal) have never had any external enemy and thus no motive for consolidation at all: it’s only concern was a continuous internal fight for the Iron Throne and seats in the Small Council, and therefore it has developed a more individualistic and selfish culture orientated towards game-playing values which simply better served the needs of individual survival.
And as for Jon, I just wonder what type of commander you would choose for yourself (as someone with a serious military experience): the one who would leave you behind based on unbiased calculation that saving you would claim lives of other people, or the one who would go after you against all odds?
Vally,
By that logic, LF is the reason Sansa escaped King’s Landing with her head still connected to her body instead of being executed for Joffrey’s murder. He’s also the reason Auntie Lysa didn’t push her out the moon door. Shall we go ahead and assign him credit for every breath she takes henceforth? He’ll have to get in line behind the Hound, but he’s still ahead of Theon and Brienne at least. Are we going to go as far back as conception when determining who gets credited with what, or would giving people credit for what they actually do suffice?
Flayed Potatoes,
It’ll be interesting to see how next season’s events are repackaged after the fact, that’s for sure. On the leak front,
That’s Northern self-image. Ned views things that way, due to negative experience.
Winterfell is not like King’s Landing, but neither is Highgarden like King’s Landing, or the Eyrie, or Casterly Rock. All of the great houses are very secure in their places of power (…er, except the Martells, apparently). KL is an anomaly, a place where numerous different major powers share space.
The Northern houses have all the same political considerations as the south. They didn’t back the Starks against the Boltons because they were cowed and/or indifferent. The Northern houses are generally poorer than the southern ones, and so maybe they make a virtue of necessity, but they’re every bit as interested in resources, money, etc. Nobody who is unconcerned about such things can make it as a ruler.
Inga,
The Dornish (who weren’t part of the Seven Kingdoms until much more recently), the Vale Mountain clans, assorted Essosi groups, hell, the Ironborn, all count as external threats.
Sean C.,
Partly you are right: the Mountain clans had a similar effect on the Vale as the Whildlings had on the North; the Riverlands have been a bit different, because they never had an experience of successful resistance. However, similar problems and similar ethical codes make the Vale and the Riverlands gravitate towards the North. And “the south” is basically limited to the Crownlands, the Reach, the Stormlands, and the Westerlands: too powerful to take any external threats seriously, especially taking into account that those so called “external threats” are basically internal threats (local rivals for the IT) expelled to Essos and coming back with some allies; they are not total aliens willing to wipe out all an everything.
Hursta1,
AS I SAID! One region is not superior than the other , they are just different like every country in our world. They have different traditions , different customs , different culture. The northerners see the southerners as “fancy” knights and schemers and the southerners see them as savages and bearded unwashed fools (Tywin called them that). None of them is better than the other, both of them believe their better than the other!!!
True. I didn’t say that Sansa didn’t achieved anything ever , i only meant that the Vale’s alliance to house Stark was not her achievement but Littlefingers.He gets all the credit.
Maria,
Grail King,
Speaking of Sansa’s motivations, IMO one of her major problems is her inability of fear to admit her own lies. She didn’t tell Jon she met with LF, because she told him that Littlefinger “sold” her to the Boltons (which wasn’t true), and afterwards she didn’t tell Jon about the Knigts of the Vale, partly because she didn’t know whether they were coming, but partly because she was afraid to be blamed for turning away an army they really needed.
Same in the Vale: she covered Littlefinger after Lysa’s murder, because she was too ashamed to admit that she played a role in that (even though against her own will).
So, all in all Sansa has too many uncomfortable secrets and feels too ashamed to reveal them and that makes her lie and thus become an easy target for Littlefinger’s manipulations.
But Sansa did one thing right: she rejected Littlefinger’s “beautiful picture” and pushed Jon to take the lead as the KITN. Maybe, that wasn’t an easy decision, but it was made. And she atoned some of her wrongdoings and received an easy forgiveness, so, probably that will encourage her to follow the same path next season (against all odds).
I hope this season tones down the Sansa / other Starks conflicts or at least makes them feel more organic. The internet became such an annoying place to be during the Jon/Sansa debacle last season.
Some of us don’t “know” of anything upcoming. nor do we want to. I only feel like 1 out of every 10 posts here might be free of spoilers so maybe I can click and stay spoiler free. And then 5 posts in someone just HAS to talk about spoilers anyway.
Good point. And in S2, when LF visits Catelyn at Renley’s camp, he had the face to tell her that her girls are safe in KL for now, “Sansa as beautiful as ever, Arya as wild as ever.” He even starts making a play for Cat, adding something like “Fate seems to have brought us together again. This chance is…” but Cat pulls a dagger on him.
What a bold-faced liar. He didn’t know where Arya was, but he’d risk the lie to win Cat. Beware upcoming tinfoil, friends: Personally, I think he wanted Ned dead, Arya dead, and everything Stark destroyed …other than Cat and her daughter doppelganger. Between Brandon, the wound Brandon gave him, and Ned getting Cat’s love, LF’s hatred of Starks knew no bounds. I think destroying them was a major aspect of his plan to create chaos and maybe get the throne as a result. And, as I’ve posted on WOTW a few times, I think LF suggested to Joffrey that he surprise-kill Ned. Certainly, LF looked on smug and unsurprised as Ned’s execution happened. Who lost everything if Ned Stark remained alive at the Wall and there was no war? Who else had the money to hire a faceless man? Jaqen may have been LF’s backup plan for Ned’s death if Joffrey didn’t kill him? That might explain why Jaqen, sent off to the NW, took an immediate interest in Arya. Was he supposed to kill her too?
That’s all conjecture, but one fact cannot be denied: Sansa knew LF was a murderer, war inciter, wife killer, and a consummate liar. She benefited from some of the chaos he created, but what was her main response? To deliberately learn from him, or so she thought. Seven hells. But not learning from her narrow escape from JOffrey-hell, her letting him sell her to Ramsay proves that her learning was shallow, and morally suspect. And she certainly didn’t learn enough to protect herself from Ramsay. Maybe that;s the problem–Sansa is a slow learner. Slow learners should not be in charge of anything.
😉 Srsly, wouldn’t Sansa hooking up with Tyrion be wicked cool? I would say it makes sense logically, but obviously and thankfully the show isn’t into logic, nor am I when it comes to art.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Totally agree! Am 100% sure littlefinger’s original plan was to take his revenge against house Tully (Cat’s father) and Stark (Cat’s suitors) and win Cat (he lives in denial thinking Cat actually loved him).That was his original motive . Later , the more powerful he got , the more power he wanted.Believing he could actually take the Iron throne with Cat or mini-Cat by his side!People say he try to help Ned and Ned was fool enough to not listen to him. Bullshit! He send that letter (using Lysa) to lure Ned in the capital , because he knew Ned never wanted power but his very loyal to Jon Arryn. Later he pretend to be at his side advising him to take Joff in custody and crown Renly ,knowing very well that Ned would never agree to such thing.And then he promised him the gold cloaks, we all know how that went. .Jon Arryn and Ned Stark were marked as dead men the minute Petyr arrived in the Vale for the first time to serve Jon A.He never cared for Cat’s children , they were only pawns to him .Sansa replace Cat in his little fantasy (after Cat’s death) , the rest of them , especially the boys were obstacles to his precious plans.I can’t wait to see him gone!Every time he tells how much he loved Catelyn , i want to stab him in the eye. If you love a women you do everything to protect her children!You don’t use them , you don’t help their enemies in any way!!
elybe,
I hate to break it to you,but that’s what happened in real life back in medieval times,the families of the traitors were usually punished even if they had no part in it,that was the way back then,it was done so they could scare others to do the same .
In my sweet summer child dreams Sansa and Tyrion reunite and develop a nurturing, albeit beneficial relationship built on mutual respect, understanding and attraction. Then, together they take down Cersei ( a character I love).
I’m also a true believer in Jamie=Valonqar. I haven’t worked out all the kinks yet.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Between Brandon, the wound Brandon gave him, and Ned getting Cat’s love, LF’s hatred of Starks knew no bounds. I think destroying them was a major aspect of his plan to create chaos and maybe get the throne as a result.
This!
Also, who knows quite how it will play out if the spoiler is correct, but considering it was LIttlefinger who very deliberately set in motion everything that’s happened to the Starks, it will seem very, I don’t know, unsatisfactory? premature? if he comes to an end at any point before THE end.
(I can’t tell if the tag thingy is working, so *LEAKS*)
Like it doesn’t seem like it would be enough for Arya to kill him, even with encouragement from Sansa based on discovery from Bran. After all that’s happened because of him, he would just be dead, which was always a risk he was willing to take. It seems like it would be more fitting if it weren’t just vengeance that gets him in the end, but rather the one thing he really overlooked, and that catastrophe might have been averted had it not been for the destruction to House Stark that he brought about: the White Walkers.
Stannisisdead,
And this is a fictional fantasy series which has introduced us to numerous styles of leadership and power structures. I happen to think that the mindset I spoke of is backwards thinking at its finest and accomplishes very little. You’re welcome to disagree.
Inga,
I’ll disagree with that. Because Littlefinger informed her just before they arrive at Winterfell. He didn’t ask her opinion before the arrangements. He explained to her his reasoning and she decided to play along. She trusted him because she believed he knows better to play the game. And because she was never really free after KL. The realm was looking for her because of Joffrey.
Of course Lf “forgot” to inform her about Ramsay. Now I don’t think that he believed he was worse than Joffrey. Littlefinger is a gambler and he plays and secures things with all sides. I think he knew some stories about Ramsay but he underestimated him or didn’t know about his psychopathology because Ramsay was an unknown bastard and wasn’t in his best interest to mistreat his Stark wife who she was giving him power. Sansa was there to play the good submissive wife. She is a Stark, they needed her and she was based on Lf to help her. But in the end Ramsay was an arrogant sadist, something Sansa knew very well and try to warn Jon.
In season 4 Sansa had figured out one part of Littlefinger’s desires. The weird sympathy he has for her. She was based on this for her protection. She said to Lf “I know what do you want”.
But when she left her with psycho Ramsay, her assumptions about him was shaken. She didn’t know if he really cared for her (for whatever reason) and if his behavior towards her was only a play to achieve something. In s06e10 Sansa said to Lf that she was wrong about what she thought he wanted. But Lf said she was not wrong but he also wants to be a king and wants her. His ambitions are deeper and nothing can stop him.
Yes I believe shame plays a part because of years of humiliation. She blames herself to not trust the right people. But in her captivity there weren’t easy choices. There weren’t “right” people except the Hound. But back then, she chose to stay because of Stannis.
Can you imagine if Sansa had told Jon about Lf, accept his help from the start and Lf betrayed them? What advise Jon could give her about his motives if he knew? She was the one who lived with him. Again not an easy choice when the character doesn’t know the outcome.
She didn’t trust Jon not only because of shame. She lost faith in him because of his psychology. Jon was depressed and saw things in vain after his death. He had no purpose except the protection of his family. Until he made the decision to live when he came through all those bodies, he didn’t care if he would die. Sansa saw all that. That Rickon was his only cause and she believed Rickon was already lost. So she didn’t want to lose everything else. She said it herself. “No one can protect anyone”.
It would be pragmatic for Sansa to consider mitigating
I reiterate, I believe this to be a pragmatic/survivalist action, not one that adheres to an overall societal moral code.
It could prove to be short-sighted though…. ahem… “Every time we deal with an enemy, we create two more,”… yup. That’s a Tyrion quote.
mau,
Jon and Dany are not the main characters ,they are 2 of the main characters.They are just more connected to the Long Night arc , but so is Bran.I don’t even know how many times GRRM had to correct an interviewer who said those two are the protagonists .
Characters By Screen Time:
Top 10 (minutes):
Tyrion -293:30 minutes
Jon-268:15 minutes
Dany-221:30 minutes
Cersei-201:45 minutes
Sansa-199:30 minutes
Arya-189:15 minutes
Jaime-162:30 minutes
Theon-123:30 minutes
Sam-121:45 minutes
Jorah-117:30 minutes
Top10 (episodes):
Tyrion-54 episodes
Cersei-52 episodes
Dany/ Jon-49 episodes
Sansa/Arya-47 episodes
Jaime-43 episodes
Jorah-42 episodes
Theon-39 episodes
Sam-37 episodes
Tyrion is first ,Jorah is last , 176 minutes between them. GOT is 60 hours long so far and Tyrion has only 3 hours more screen time than Jorah.
elybe,
leaks
Vally,
And who was it that ensured Sansa survived to make it to that moment in the first place, instead of getting executed for Joffrey’s death or thrown through the moon door? Oh wait….
If you think LF was sweating bullets and worrying that he wouldn’t get out of that situation alive, then have I got a bridge to sell you.
ramses,
I wouldn’t call that a particularly pragmatic move, partly because of the point you raised about creating more enemies and partly because I think it’s short-sighted thinking that’s destined to backfire.
I said pragmatic to consider. Survival is about the here and right now of course but also about safeguarding against future threats.
I actually always loved Sansa. I suppose some were annoyed by her in some moments, but i kind of always understood her. Cersei is one of those, that you love to hate, same as LF. and Jaime is some of the most complex, because he really can be a completely asshole, but in other moments he can be very tender and a nice guy, doing a complete 360, as some of his scenes with Tyrion and Brienne.
And the best thing about Dany and Jon being the heroes that we love and root for, is that they are more than just the heroes. They have flaws. They aren’t perfect , and yes, sometimes they could make questionable choices and this is what make them even more amazing and special. Especially Dany.
I am, obviously, no fan of Sansa, especially in the books where she still has barely emerged from stupid, foolish, snobbish little girl mode. But I hope the rumours are wrong. In the violent, historically-echoing mediaeval fantasy, Westeros is a place where many children are victimised, one way or another. And if they survive to adulthood, they are formed or warped by those experiences. A key theme of the show and books is that children must be nurtured, encouraged, allowed to flourish and above all protected from violence. I don’t think even Cersei hurt a child. Ned lived and died for that code, making long-term personal sacrifice for baby Jon and the ultimate sacrifice for his girls. I especially hope that none of his remaining four children would ever knowingly hurt a child.
Everyone saying Sansa isn’t a good political player aren’t opening their eyes. She did the most important thing in Season 6 by convincing Jon to help her re-take Winterfell. That was something even Stannis couldn’t do and in the books he really tries. Granted she had the fact that his own sworn brothers killed him, Ramsey’s letter, and a wildling army to help swing things in her favor but at the end of the day she got her home back. Not only that she managed to get LF to help her too. She proceeds to dress him up like Ned Stark so that the Lords see him as their true leader. It took awhile and he still had to prove their cause by winning the battle but he got crowned King in the North. Also note, after she says she won’t be taken alive by Ramsey, Jon tells Melisandre not to bring him back. He is literally only doing this with/for her. All that being said, I do think the show misses a lot of the more interesting aspects of Sansa character from the books.
c_reed,
Lord this fanfic.
Stannis had political reasons (he wanted the North to swear fealty to him and thought that by installing Jon in Winterfell he’d get that). Sansa wanted her home back and get revenge on Ramsay. There’s nothing political about that. If she had an interest in uniting the North to fight against the WW, then I’d say it’s political, but there’s no indication on the show that she’s thinking of the big picture, unlike the characters who are preoccupied with WW.
“Granted she had the fact that his own sworn brothers killed him, Ramsey’s letter, and a wildling army to help swing things in her favor but at the end of the day she got her home back.”
So she had all these happy coincidences that helped her without her doing anything to obtain them. That’s not being a political player. It’s having certain plot elements to her side. Did she orchestrate For the Watch? No lmao. Did she anticipate Ramsay sending a letter TO JON? No, she was concerned with escaping the Bolton soldiers and making it to the Wall. There’s nothing political about that. It’s just a natural thing to want to run away from a psychic flaying bastard. Did she assemble the Wildling army and have them follow her? Nope… Jon and Tormund talked to them and they followed Jon.
“Not only that she managed to get LF to help her too.”
How did she get him to help her? Littlefinger said he was taking the Vale army north in season 5. Then he recruited the army based on his supposition that Sansa is at Castle Black and even before meeting her. LF did that himself. He would have showed up regardless. She didn’t have to convince him of anything. He even offered her the army he assembled at Mole’s Town, and all she had to do was say yes, which she didn’t do.
All she did was send an SOS to someone who would have showed up regardless, after she misread the North’s situation following the RW and pissed off the houses they were going to recruit. That’s not a political player or a diplomat. Davos was ten times the political player this season because what he told her about the North and how people are came true. She’d do well to learn from him instead of insulting him after he actually managed to recruit a house to their cause. I guess she knows how to write a letter, but then again so do all the characters on the show who can read and write, so that hardly makes her special.
“She proceeds to dress him up like Ned Stark so that the Lords see him as their true leader.”
Did she specify that this was the purpose of the coat? Did any houses they went to recruit mention how much Jon’s clothes look like Ned’s and join them because of this? Lyanna Mormont didn’t think she had to join them because he’s a Snow and Sansa’s a Bolton/Lannister, so that didn’t work. She joined them because of WW and the Jeor/Jon relationship. I think this is just fans projecting.
The show is trying to make Jon more Ned-like (even recycling dialogue, which started in season 5) via hair and costume for some future purpose. Jon has always looked the most Stark-like anyway because genetics, and not because Sansa wants the North to see him as their true leader. She’s upset she was overlooked as QITN, so obviously that’s not the case. The gift is a nice gesture to show him that she sees him as her brother (which she says in episode 10: “I’m not a Stark”. “You are to me”).
I’m going to somewhat disagree; In Sansa’s mind he did sell her, he also lied to her we know it’s not a truth only because the show runners insisted that LF made a mistake in judgment, yet how many here and on other forums refused that notion. In show she has no reason to feel bad for her lie, her aunt tried to kill her because of jealousy and it was Baleish who kissed her not the other way around she had no true friends which is true anyone who wanted to help her at selfish reasons to do so.
Her protecting LF was based on the fact she didn’t know what Lord Royce and company would do with her if they killed LF, I personally believe they protect her, but Sansa wouldn’t know that; in the books she at least told us the Vale didn’t help Robb why would they help her.
I think the only real damage she has blame on is running to Cersei defying his orders, her running removed what little remaining chance to escape, hence her troubles and in book Jeyne pool are partly her fault, but the adults and Joffry are also guilty.
Flayed Potatoes,
Sadly, there’s no convincing them.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Leaks.
If this is true then Dany would be completely justified in coming to Westeros and punishing the children of all the Usurper dogs who killed her family, raped her sister-in law and murdered babies.
I am looking forward to Dany taking Winterfell and Drogon roasting Sansa for her father’s role in defeating the Targaryens.
Flayed Potatoes,
It’s funny how everyone with a different view of Sansa’s arc is a follower of fan fiction to you. What a great way of brushing aside other views and also so very hypocritical coming from one of the biggest Jon fanboys on this site.
Now, I have many problems with the show’s writing as I said above. There seems to be a discrepancy between what the writers think they conveyed and how viewers interpret the scenes.
But the the scene in the Eyrie clearly showed that LF fucked up. If you think LF would have gotten out of the situation at the Eyrie alive without Sansa’s help, then you clearly did not understand what the show writers were telling you. Show LF is stupid and Sansa saved his life because she thought he could be useful to her. And he was. It was the centre piece of her S4 arc and it paved the way for future developments.
Her decision to let LF live and hence continue his schemes brought her two things. Incredible pain at the hands of Ramsay, but also the Vale army.
That is how the story works. So yes, dear elybe, I give her credit for making such a decision and suffer the consequences, because she is the main character in this storyline and her relationship with LF is central to her arc, so her actions in this regard matter a great deal.
If the Hound will do something incredibly important later in the story, I think Arya should be given credit for not having him killed. Jaime already set things in motion, like giving Brienne Oathkeeper and have her protect the Stark children, so I do think Catelyn’s letting him go, proved to be good in the long term. Controversial actions and decisions of the main characters that both have “good” and “bad” consequences drive this story.
Vally,
If you think LF would have gotten out of the situation at the Eyrie alive without Sansa’s help…
Well, he could have told the lords that Sansa killed Lysa (who was trying to kill her); or simply admit that he killed Lysa protecting Sansa… IMO, Sansa suspected something like that and that’s why she decided to tell her own story. So, yes she was caught in a very complicated situation, and her decision put her into an event more complicated situation, and she sill struggles with all the consequences and ramifications, etc.
So, we can give her credit or we can criticize her saying that she could have been smarter (the main problem I have with her character is that her naivete looks too forced and overplayed, especially in the books), but her struggle with Littlefinger still goes on, and Sansa still has potential to become a final winner. It’s just my guess or wish that her victory came not due to playing games, but rather by rejecting them and telling the truth – first of all to herself.
Um… yeah, it IS true:
This is from Season 5, episode 3 at approx. 49.53 minutes. Littlefinger to Ramsay:
LF: I assure you, she’s still a virgin. Tyrion never consummated the marriage. By the law of the land, she is no man’s wife. Inspect her if you must.
Roose: I leave that to the brothel keeper. It’s her name I need, not her virtue.
LF: Then I have delivered everything I promised.
Roose: And you’re prepared for the consequences: When the Lannisters hear I’ve wed Sansa Stark to Ramsay?
LF: The Lannister name doesn’t mean what it once did. Tywin is dead. He kept his house in power through sheer will. Without him?… Jamie has one hand and no allies. Tommen is a soft boy, not a king to fear.
Roose: The Queen will be enraged.
LF: Queen Margaery adores Sansa. Cersei is queen mother, a title whose importance wanes with each passing day.
Roose: And yet she still has friends. Men in important places whom she can ask for favors. A message for you from Cersei Lannister …
LF: A message for me, you say? Strange that the seal is broken.
Roose: I’m sure you understand my position, Lord Baelish. If you receive word in the night from the Queen Mother, it does make me question our new alliance. The Lannisters made you one of the great lords of Westeros, Yet here you are in the North, undermining them. Why gamble with your position?
LF: Every ambitious move is a gamble. You gambled when you drove a dagger into Robb Stark’s heart. It appears that your gamble paid off. You are Warden of the North.
Roose: I had Tywin Lannister’s backing. Who supports me, now? You?
LF: The Eyrie is mine. The last time the lords of the Eyrie formed an alliance with the lords of the North, they brought down the greatest dynasty this world has ever known. …
He did indeed bargain with/sell Sansa to Roose as a ploy toward making his dream of dynasty come true.
I was all ready to jump in with a huge defense of Sansa, but I’ve been here before, and no matter what’s written, the Sansa haters will not be convinced. There are seven months or so before the new season; a Sansa-bash happens every few months, maybe I’ll jump in during the springtime. I’m kind of in hibernation mode at the moment. Also I’m busy on Reddit reading everyone’s theories about Westworld.
Hey Sue, would any of you noble mods ever consider starting a site for Westworld? I’d love to jump into conversations with those from this group about that show in the off seasons.
Anyway, cheers to all still here. Keep warm and safe
I completely agree with you, but would carry it even a step further: I think he’s torn with feelings of hatred for Cat too. I don’t think he really mourned Cat’s death, I think he felt some satisfaction from it, even though he trotted forth his feelings of “love” for her – when he murdered her sister. Nice guy. He has a brothel-keeper’s mind, as in, oh well, there’s always another one somewhere. Not unlike the thinking of that paragon of virtue, Walder Frey.
Leaks:
He won’t be in a big hurry to help a Tully, meaning if Edmure somehow escapes the dungeon, maybe with Arya’s help, Littlefinger will advise Sansa not to have contact with him. Maybe that’s a way he comes between Sansa and Arya.
Thronetender,
Great reasoning, Thronetender! Cat had rejected him repeatedly, even in Renly’s camp where fate brought them together after she had been conveniently widowed. LF is so vain and ambitious that he may well have wanted to punish Cat. And you’re so right–logically his hatred would extend to the Tullys. My other tinfoil theory is that when LF visited Tywin in Harenhal (and nearly outed Arya), he suggested the outline for the Red Wedding, which would destroy Starks, Tullys, and Northerners at once. We didn’t see this, but he and Tywin were talking about Robb when Arya scooted out of the chamber. Even in S7, hurting the Tullys would extend LF’s power: with the Freys in disarray or worse, if Tullys are eliminated as players, the Lord of Harrenhal becomes the surviving power in the Riverlands. Can’t you see LF twirling his mustache and goatee in delight.
You remind me of something else. In S1 someone tried to have Bran killed with a fancy Valyrian steel dagger. In the books Jaime and Tyrion conjecture that the catspaw assassin was sent by Joffrey, but the series does not identify the instigator. It might well have been Littlefinger. He could gain three advantages from Bran’s assassination: 1) one less Stark 2) Ned would be distressed and distracted and 3) LF could implicate Tyrion when Cat or Ned inevitably asked him about the dagger. More chaos. LF is the absolute master of gambling on 2-3 things at once and hoping the chaos cards will fall in his favour. Which they usually do. It’s disturbing that even Arya, for all her wary astuteness, might be swayed and played by LF into a dispute with Sansa.