Catching up on a few interviews, Peter Dinklage discusses Tyrion’s role in the final season of Game of Thrones, admits he guessed his character’s fate correctly, and teases a reunion with Sansa; also, Game of Thrones composer Ramin Djawadi talks about new themes, and claims to have watched season eight “hundreds and hundreds of times.”
“I had all these ideas in my head and a version of one of them is how it ends up,” Peter Dinklage addresses Tyrion’s fate in a Entertainment Weekly which took place during season eight filming. “David and Dan have a brilliant version of what I had. If I use any adjectives it will give it away. But I love how it ended up. And how it ends up for everybody. They had a beautiful gentle touch with some and a hard touch with others.”
Sounds ominous? It’s supposed to: “We’re so used to the standard formula of bad guys dying and good guys living,” Dinklage observes. “What [showrunners] David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] have done with all this is beautiful, painful, and lovely. It takes the show somewhere that’s dangerous and contemporary with what’s going on in the world.”
“He’s definitely a diplomat,” Dinklage says of Tyrion, and his uncertain new role. “How does he maintain his sense of self within that? He’s like a translator with his own strong opinions. How do you stop yourself from voicing that? Obviously, Daenerys and her dragons are nitroglycerine. He knows she’s going to make the world a better place yet he also understands her passion. He’s put his passion in front of himself sometimes and it got the better of him. He’s trying to figure out who he really is in this storm of negotiations… With the biggest threat of all, the [White Walkers and their undead army], he’s not going to be able to negotiate… He’s not a fighter. He can’t talk them into peace.”
As for what else we can expect from Tyrion, Dinklage teases a reunion with his former arranged wife, Sansa: “I love those two characters when they’re together. There’s something so sensitive about their relationship. For something so horrible and arranged there was a goodness to it and mutual affection in horrible circumstances. It was a marriage as a treaty, as a lot of those arranged marriages were. Though you hear of arranged marriages now working out. If it was given a chance maybe it would have.”
Everyone’s talking about Daenerys meeting Sansa, Arya reuniting with Jon, and a hundred other permutations of characters meeting again or for the first time, but one encounter I’m very much looking forward to is the reunion between Tyrion and Sansa. In the show in particular they had a nice enough relationship, given the circumstances, and both of them have gone through so much since then. How will that reunion go?
Look for the complete Peter Dinklage interview at Entertainment Weekly.
At INSIDER, award-winning Game of Thrones composer Ramin Djawadi is reluctant to share too much about his work on the final season, very much like everyone else involved in the production, but he allows himself to say “there are new themes, definitely, and there are plenty of the existing themes as well, with new iterations.”
“It’s obviously super exciting but writing this final season was definitely very emotional for me,” Djawadi says. “I went through all the ups and downs all by myself… Obviously it’s so under wraps that even my direct team can’t have access to my studio. So it was just me and nobody else, all the doors were locked. It was quite emotional.”
Djawadi watched all of season eight “straight through” before writing any music for it. And, throughout the composing process, he “re-watched them countless times,” Djawadi tells INSIDER. “Like hundreds and hundreds of times.” Envious, me? Never.
The odds of Tyrion dying are really low – but NOT non-zero. He could be burned by you know who….
I bet that he bet that he ends up a Hand to King Jaime. A job he was born for – aligning his head and heart, values and family.
If Jaime does not make King, Tyrion will be King or be with Sansa in some capacity.
He lived, until they found a cock merchant
Semi O/T news: On this day in 1966, ‘Ol Blue Eyes recorded “Strangers in the Night.”
Which, coincidentally, is on Volume I of NK’s “Love Songs for the Long Night” that we started compiling last year.
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
You made my day!!!
*lol*
I noticed a clever Tyrion foreshadow in S3 E2 Dark Wings, Dark Words…
Tyrion talks about being decapitated many times… What Shae is doing and the final image in the scene when Shae seduces Tyrion foreshadows it.
I hope the rumors of Tyrion being in love with Daenerys and that causing drama is not the case. That would be, ugh.
Not non-zero would technically mean zero, no ? Double negation.
Yes, very ugh.
Sounds rather ominous for our friend Tyrion.
His divided loyalties were a big part of his Seasom 7 story.
Would be a rather tragic story if those divided loyalties end up leading to his downfall after finally receiving the acceptance he never received from his family in Season 6.
AT&T U-Verse HBO Program info Summary for 4/14/19 GoT, 9:00 – 10:15 PM
(Reproduced verbatim, including garbled grammar. How disrespectful of King Stannis!!!)
I’ll cover in spoiler coding, though I suspect the episode summary isn’t even accurate.
PS Pet peeve:
I prety sure you got it right !
I did not read about Tyrion, nor any other characters since about 2 months, when the massive flow of interviews began ; trying to stay away from any sort of spoilers and speculations.
But I’m so glad to read a little more about Ramin Djawadi’s work. His compositions are amazing and, like the others, he seems to have enjoyed so much his job.
As many, I went to see one of his Live Concert, in Paris. And despite the fact that it resulted in an awfull and expensive WE, at the exeption of the show of course ; I will not hesitate one seconde to get my ticket for the next on.
I am waiting his music as much as the new season.
The clock is realy ticking now!!!
We were shown nothing of his conversation with Cersei after he correctly deduced she was pregnant. He spent a lot of time trying to convince her that he was not trying to destroy their family, that he was trying to save their family by stemming Dany’s most base instincts, that he loved her children….. and now she’s pregnant again. HOW did he get Cersei to agree to come back out and pledge her troops? We’ll find out whether they planned this double cross together if the Lannister army not joining them comes as a surprise to Jon and Dany and Tyrion says nothing.
They’ve already foreshadowed Varys’ death. I haven’t noticed any foreshadowing of Tyrion’s death, but they really have had Tyrion broadcasting how potentially dangerous Dany is, and I think it’s clear he’s in love with her. I believe there will be a double cross but will Tyrion escape death again? He’s concerned with who will rule after Dany dies. Is he hedging his bets on having dany agree to have Cersei’s baby be Dany’s heir? Little does he know…….
Mango,
I don’t know… The recurring conflicts about “family, family, family”, despite everything Tywin and Cersei did to him, may compel Tyrion to betray Dany when push comes to shove. Especially if Cersei isn’t faking it about being pregnant vs. gaining 15 pounds from excessive boozing.
I’m really looking forward to what Ramin has in store for us this season. He’s written so many great themes for the show, and I can’t wait to hear how they all play out.
I predict that Sansa will reign as Queen of Westeros, next in line to the throne following Bran, Jon and Dany’s Death.
Tyrion will survive and they will both remarry, forming a political alliance to unite Westeros (similar to the war of the roses where will effectively become king consort).
The reasons for this have been pretty heavily foreshadowed and hinted at in the scripts throughout the seasons:
1. Lady Sansa, you may outlive us all
2. A small man casting a very large shadow (which he has yet to do)
3. Numerous reminders from Sansa on how kindly she was treated by Tyrion.
I really cannot see him betraying Dany or the others for Cersei- it makes no sense whatsoever given his arc thus far.
trarecar,
I’ve thought about this as well, and I’ve gone back and forth on this one myself, but I just can’t believe that Tyrion would be dumb enough to trust anything Cersei says. At least, I hope not. Tyrion, of all people, should know not to trust Cersei.
Apollo,
Definitely possible, but would Tyrion have any political clout left though to make this alliance useful? The Lannisters are pretty much gone as a family now. At least, once Cersei and Jaime die, which is almost a certainty, Tyrion would be all that’s left.
Then again, there probably won’t be much left of any of the major families, so they have to start somewhere.
I really see no value in Tyrion dying. Nothing, zero.
As a parallel with season 1, he was also close to death there – because of his big mouth – but survived.
Ask yourselves also this:
Why did George made Tyrion a dwarf?
Why does Tyrion have contact with all main characters and also visits the all the key locations from Westeros and Essos as well?
Mr Derp,
He certainly does not trust her but he thinks he can outwit her, which he can. He had to promise her SOMETHING to make her come back out there and pledge her troops. Even if she was planning on double crossing him the whole time (which she almost certainly was), and Tyrion knows that, Dany will be enraged to find out that Tyrion lied to her – she’s already stated several times that he seems to be concerned with his family more than her.
If Tyrion did not tell Dany and Jon what happened in that room to make Cersei ‘change her mind’, then it will not go well for him. Dany will kill him. I wonder if Varys somehow gets caught up in Tyrion’s scheme and dies in his place, or takes the blame for Tyrion (per what he heard in the flames) or something else…. They’ve made it very clear that Tyrion is conflicted. We all know Tyrion is proud to be a Lannister, and I’ve always thought that having Tyrion has the head of the Lannister family on Casterly Rock would be a great ending for him. But so would him sitting on the Iron Throne. LOL I don’t know what is going to happen, and that’s really exciting!
One of the things I’m most looking forward to is hearing Djawadi’s latest score. I hope he will continue giving the concerts!
trarecar,
It’s going to be very interesting to see how this all plays out.
I think Varys will no longer support Dany once he sees a fleet of red priestesses/priests come flocking to Westeros in support of Dany.
Varys wanted Stannis to lose back in season 2 mainly because he had the support of Melisandre, a red priestess. Just imagine what Varys is going to think once there’s an army of them coming to Westeros in support of Dany.
Mr Derp,
He already knows about that, though, when they came to Mereen. I don’t think that will be it. They haven’t shown Varys being sneaky in a long time, I believe he’ll get caught up in Tyrion’s scheming.
Precisely what I was going to mention.
During our re-watch I was struck, once again, by how Sansa spoke of Tyrion to Ramsay right before the latter raped her.
Echoing lul, I see no value in Tyrion dying either. A man does not create such a rich, complex character—and upend literary and folk tradition by making him a dwarf, no less—only to turn him into a) a traitor or b) a naïve dunce and then immolate him with dragon fire.
Fuck no.
Some of the cast’s comments have been giving me the ominous feeling that we’ll see Euron on the throne in the end. As in, our heroes save the world, but at a terrible cost, which allows this dumb opportunistic asshole to come in at the end and sit on top of the wreckage. It’s just a feeling I have, but I’m putting it in writing now because this comment from Peter has really reinforced it.
To be clear, I don’t think Tyrion will actually die, but I DO think there is a big possibility he is scheming behind Dany’s back. Not to undermine her for the throne, but to save his family legacy. I think he will narrowly escape Dany’s wrath, but he will feel it.
Obviously if he comes clean to Dany and Jon early on this is moot, but something was offered to make Cersei come back out and make a pledge. Tyrion didn’t sweet talk Cersei into doing the right thing, I think we all know that. He had to offer her something.
If Tyrion betrays Dany I’d hope it would be related to trying to save lives, as in poisoning the dragons or some such. If it’s over Cersei? Not a fan
I was trying to figure out what he could have meant by contemporary and maybe you just nailed it. Oh gods please no. Feels too on the nose.
Doubt there will even be a throne in the end and I don’t think Euron will even make it that far.
trarecar,
I think it would be poetic justice if the Lannisters were wiped off the earth. Tywin did away with House Reyne and tried to do the same with House Stark, karma dictates that someday the same thing should happen to his house. I wouldn’t mind, even if Tyrion has been my second/third fave character throughout the series. The three terrible children of Tywin Lannister have all accumulated too much karma to be overlooked and to top it off, they are all too enamored with their self-perceived cleverness. That tends to get you in the end.
Jack Bauer 24,
Hope you’re right. The show is already relevant. Making obvious connections to contemporary transitory political figures/movements will date it. Should strive for something more timeless.
https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/11/game-of-thrones-season-8-premiere-ratings-prediction/
Hibberd predicts the premeire rating.
If Dinklage is honest here, then it’s likely Tyrion either end up king, or advisor to the king/queen.
Unlikely he would’ve thought his fate was to die, given he’s a “good guy”, and he’s not a warrior so it lowers the chance of him being killed at least on a battlefield.
It’s not the same as if say NCW said he guessed his character’s fate right; Jaime is likely to die, probably with Cersei. So NCW could have that end in mind. NCW also read the books as far as I know, so he has more insight.
But Dinklage would probably go with the most predictable/cliche ending we can imagine, which is Tyrion ruling or advising the ruler.
Now this brings another question… Which ruler, if he’s adviser? I always thought Dany would die (prob. be killed by jon/tyrion/jorah) and Jon would rule, but would Tyrion picture an ending where he advises Jon (and not Dany)? I’m not too sure. He looks like a simple guy, and simple people think of simple things. I think he would be more the kind of people to think Tyrion would advise either Dany, or both Jon AND Dany.
So are we getting the cliche hollywood ending with Jon&Dany ruling together, with Tyrion as hand, and no one dies (among the very main cast)?
No, that’s only valid for Cersei. Jaime and Tyrion have both saved the population of King’s Landing at some point – their karma is as good as it can get. There’s probably only Jon and Dany who can possibly have an even better karma (for having so many wildlings/slaves/potentially the most of Westeros), no one else.
Lena Headey is part of the main cast, and I can’t see Cersei surviving, so I would say no. Also, Danerys and Jon ruling won’t necessarily be cliche. It depends how they get there.
Tyrion definitely did not look happy about the dragon destruction in “Eastwatch” or the Tarlys being burned, but I just can’t picture him killing the dragons.
Sunfyre,
Yeah that one line in the interview made me sick to my stomach. Please no Euron or Cersei on the throne at the end! Ugh.
Honestly, they’ve laid the groundwork for either Tyrion outcome at this point.
First let me say he’s one of my favorites and I think he’s been horribly abused by his father and sister and still managed to thrive and I love him. I’ve loved his relationships with Varys and Bronn and Jon and Sansa, his kindness toward Bran and Pod. He’s an amazing character and I want him to survive and be appreciated.
I always 100% believed he’d make it to the end, but recently I’ve started to worry about him. Not just because of the private meeting with his sister, but his expression when Lannister men were burning, his concern about Dany’s decisions and his weird staring at that bedroom door.
Also, objectively speaking, all his decisions so far have left Dany with fewer allies. He was brilliant in King’s Landing, but he hasn’t really made a successful decision since he killed Shae and his father. Maybe he has trust issues, but all he’s done is isolate Dany.
He sent Jorah away (not okay) and Daario (totally okay). He also ragged on Theon pretty heavily for a diplomat, and if Yara and Dany hadn’t bonded that alliance wouldn’t have happened. It was his idea to bring a creature he’d never seen to King’s Landing, which put Jorah and Jon in horrible danger while sending them away again, and he said no to Dany going to burn Euron’s ships or rescue Jon. He says its for her safety, but he hasn’t even suggested she wear armor or a helmet to deflect all those arrows he’s worried about and he’s already pushing her about her replacement before she even has the throne.
All these actions would be suspect if it was anyone but Tyrion, who we love. I mean, I don’t entirely blame him. Dany’s temperament is a little unpredictable-see Tully family and her desire to burn Red Keep down. Personally I agree she’s more a conqueror than a day-to-day leader. But the point is it’s still there.
Twice in the series he’s been tried for crimes he didn’t commit, and I have a hard time believing he has an evil master plan or anything, but if he ended up betraying Dany and/or Jon out of misguided loyalty, the foundation has been laid.
No, that doesn’t mean he’ll die. But it leaves an opening for that possibility now that I didn’t see before.
Ramin’s music is what I most anticipate for the season. Storylines can dissapoint us, but his work? Never. I really hope the soundtrack doesn’t get released until the season is over, I just can’t deal with the temptation. I would have loved to hear “Light of the Seven” and “Truth” along the show without spoiling it myself a week before. Not to mention spoilers from the track titles.
About Tyrion? Season 7 wasn’t really subtle about his inner conflict in this war. He will betray Daenerys not out of spite, but because he thinks he’s doing the best for th realm.
HayashiM,
Ok. Let’s talk about Jamie and all his deeds.
-Jamie killed the Mad King and saved the people of Kingslanding from possibly being burn to death. Who knows if the pyromancers would have gone with his plan to “burn them all”. But in discussing Jamie’s “heroics” let’s not forget to discuss the circumstances of the precise moment he decided to plunge his sword in the back of Aerys. He, and the rest of the Kingsguard, didn’t do it when he was burning and chocking the Starks to death. He didn’t do it when he heard him raping Rhaella over and over again. He only found the courage or “honor” to do it when he learned his lord father was right outside the Redkeep’s gate, meaning that his killing of Aerys was close to risk free in terms of personal consequences. So yes, Jamie’s actions may have possibly saved many lives but I don’t quite buy the selflessness arguments some people try to put forth in their defense for the Kingslayer.
-Jamie knew Tysha was actually who she said she was. He knew that she loved Tyrion and Tyrion loved her and yet he kept quite while his father lied to his son and proceeded to have his men raped the poor girl just so he can teach his dwarf son a lesson. Jamie was 20 at the time, Tyrion only 13. Jamie was old enough to do the right thing by the poor defenseless girl. Jamie was for most of his life a coward.
-Jamie shoved a young boy off a tower, hoping to kill him, just so that boy wouldn’t tell the world the golden Lannister was having sex with his twin sister. His twin sister. And the worse part – he never expressed any regrets about it (the Bran thing). Never. Theon did equally horrible things yet he at least had the decency to be haunted by his actions. Maybe he had the benefit of being “Ned’s son” and not Tywin’s.
So yeah, in my eyes, Jamie is one of the terrible children of Tywin Lannister. Fantastically complex character? Yes, still terrible. Will he do the right thing in the end? It looks like he may be the one Lannister who does right at the end.
I don’t think this is quite true. Tyrion has pulled off some pretty succesfull diplomacy. He did a lot to ensure that Jon would support Dany.
Maybe there is a god of tits and wine after all, but somehow I doubt it.
I’m getting this nasty feeling that Cersei might get to walk away.
I see your point, but I’d argue that Cersei is the only one who is and has always been completely terrible w/out reason, and that it was because of her that Jaime did many of the things he did.
She’s a monster now, but she started out pretty horribly. Abusing Tyrion as a baby. Initiating her relationship with Jaime, imo in part out of jealousy for attention he got from Tywin. She did something as a child in the books that I won’t talk about, but it’s bad. Also out of jealousy. We know from show Tyrion she had people beaten on the regular. And she’s the one who had the idea for Jaime to be a kingsguard so he’d be closer to her and unattached-even though she planned to marry a prince.
She kept Jaime isolated and under her thumb as much as possible, tying him to her and her twisted views his entire life, while he dreamed of being an honorable knight like Selmy and Dayne. Despite her hate for their brother, though, he was always protective of Tyrion. It was the only thing he stood up to her about. His fear of his father and his youth kept him silent about Tysha-which, yeah, that wasn’t a good decision.
The first season I hated him because-what kind of bastard pushes a kid out of a window? Also he acted like an arrogant prick to Jon, and that’s kind of my likability barometer. But in hindsight:
He was emotionally abused by his father, who resented him keeping his Kingsguard oath. He was forced to standing at the side of two horrible kings. One mad and one drunk. Both hated Lannisters and continuously mocked or verbally harassed him. His sister forced him to stay beside her and be faithful even when she was married. He couldn’t acknowledge his children and everyone called him Kingslayer, even though they’d all wanted Aerys dead.
Being kidnapped by Robb and the road trip with Brienne was really his first time out of the bubble. And it changed him for the better. He wanted to be like her. Honorable. A good knight. A good person. The rest of the series was him struggling with his desires for himself and his dysfunctional relationship with Cersei-who he should have left a long time ago imo. Especially after she burned the Sept. I mean, come on Jaime!
Anyway, I think he’ll finally get to do the right thing for the right reasons here at the end. Fingers crossed.
I’ll give you that. I’m so glad he stood up for Jon and got her to offer the dragon glass. It was a little tense there at first.
A little less than my 15 mil guess yesterday but he too is predicting a series high anyway. 🙂
I see another dumb a-hole sitting on the throne – Robin Arryn. It would make so much sense for this little man-boy to be the winner of the game without so much as trying. It would be bittersweet if Sansa had to marry him to finally get her long ago wish of being queen. I could see him making his own version of the moon door at KL and finally “making the little man fly.” This version would likely make me throw up, but I’m prepared for the worst.
That is the ending I would hate most…either Cersei or Euron (or a new baddie) “winning” by being self-servingly bad. That is a horribly bleak message to send, and I would rather see the Night King destroy Westeros than a political villain win.
“contemporary” also brings to mind a few specific elements in the story that could be prominent in the ending:
*the not-so-subtle foreshadowing of the play within a play, highlighting that the public’s view of events, and the people involved, can be quite skewed through spin, propaganda, persona and outright lies. (If one of the villains is wrongly perceived to be the hero savior of the realm, I’ll probably lose my dinner. Which, now that I think about it, would not surprise me if they die but are worshipped as a fallen hero, while real heroes are unrecognized or go down in history as villains.)
*the Iron Bank…and the role that money, through those who have most of it, plays in winning the game and controlling the story.
My final pre-season prediction, based on interviews: if there is an iron throne at the end, Tyrion will be the one sitting on it. I’m not ruling out a Tyrion heel turn. He betrays Jon, leading to his death. Dany dies in childbirth. Tyrion is appointed regent, but he disposes of the child(not necessarily through killing it), and takes the crown for himself.
I’m probably wrong about the heel turn, but I do believe he’ll wind up King.
Wow, so much to unpack here, in the article and in the comments.
First of all, let me say, even though I’m not a music person, that Ramin Djawadi is a genius and I’m really looking forward to his score. For seven seasons, it has enhanced the show’s storytelling, sometimes in ways we only realise afterwards. I expect the same excellence to continue.
tryptych,
Well, the god of tits and wine would presumably *approve* of Cersei! 😂
My only particular prediction is that, to prove to Dany that he’s really a Targaryen, Jon is going to let himself be breathed on.
Secondly, the Peter Dinklage interview. I love how he says “gentle touch with some and a hard touch with others”. Ha-haa! So much for us to speculate upon!
I liked Peter Dinklage’s comparison of Tyrion’s role as a diplomat with strong opinions of his own to that of a translator. I know. I’m a translator. Usually you just bite your tongue and get on with it, but there comes a time when you just say no to some commissions and work because it’s so against your ethics. But in the modern world, all that is just personal, especially when you’re self-employed.
A diplomat in the GoT world would supposedly have an easier time, serving his monarch loyally… Only… Who was it that said “so many vows. They make you swear and swear…” Conflicting oaths and vows, conflicting loyalties…
Enough with the talk of how great/brilliant/fantastic/unbelievable/clever etc. the ending is! Such hyperbole is exhausting. LOL . The wait has been simply torturous for most of us and these cryptic critiques of the show’s ending are distressing in that they invariably heighten the anticipation. Nothing is worse than being told how fine something is and getting one’s hopes high as this usually portends being disappointed. I just want to see it and be done with it until George writes the next book.
The music is what I live for and Djawadi’s score always delivers as it should. I have the highest regard for his work. He would be a fine Classical composer if he so chooses, as he, although being German, never-the-less, has “the Mediterranean gift for melody.”
Jamie said so.
NoobTakestheBlack,
Targaryens are not fire-proof. Many a Targaryen died in the fires of Summerhall. Dany is an exception. Jon burnt his hand when trying to kill a wight in season 1. Jon doesn’t need to prove he is a Targaryen, I don’t think he’ll care to be one. What is there to gain? A crown? Jon doesn’t like those. A dragon? He can get one if Rhaegal decides to bond with him.
Best one liner in a while, thank you!
Well that would be silly of him. Jon wasn’t fireproof, at least, before he died. His hand was burned badly while protecting LC Mormont.
Edited: Sorry, I see that’s already been pointed out 🙂
Peter Dinklage mentions how “sensitively” Tyrion’s and Sansa’s marriage was handled in the show. They even have a budding friendship before she learns of the Red Wedding.
In the books, it was a lot darker, Sansa always saw him as one of the enemy, the Lannisters, not to be trusted, even when he did save her from Joffrey’s brutality on a couple of occassions. It’s only after Sansa has escaped Kings Landing and is facing other tribulations that she thinks Tyrion was actually kind of kind, didn’t marital rape her or anything.
Many book readers who like Tyrion seem to think Sansa is a shallow bitch because she didn’t accommodate their favourite’s – in their eyes’ well-deserved – desires and fantasies. Uhm. Just feel the misogyny… The show definitely handled their marriage more “sensitively”, gave both some dignity and left both on moral high ground.
I’m definitely looking forward to the Sansa/Tyrion reunion. There could be such a rich seam to mine, if the showrunners deem so, if they think they have time for it.
Jack Hamm,
Actually, many actors/actresses have been saying that not everyone will be satisfied with the ending.
Jack Hamm,
I don’t see how they overhype it when they constantly said not everybody would like it, maybe the two of us have different language comprehension or something, as for getting the next book i wouldn’t be as optimistic as you are and even if that happens, i’m 100% sure at this point that the final book will never see the light of day, so love it or hate it, the show ending is the only ending we will get !
Must say, I’ve been around book fans a long time, I’ve seen many think Sansa is a shallow spoiled brat. Never one that said it because of that. Can it be a book fan trend that came with the rise of the show or something. I don’t even recall Linda saying stuff like that and she’d be leading the charge on how Bobby didn’t really force himself on Cersei while they were married, she was just a bitch for refusing him and so obvi he made the best out of it. Or something creepily similar.
It was revealed in this Nicolaj’s interview that some of the cast sat down and watched the original pilot and Nicolaj gave his feedback to that pilot
Young Dragon,
Jack Nabble,
Yes they’ve said those things, but they and others have constantly claimed the things I’ve listed. Even if it disappoints and lets some fans down as regards character’s fates, the ending may indeed be “brilliant, fine, fantastic, incredible, unbelievable”…or it may not be any of those. I have my preferences in character fates but these preferences are secondary to the show having a satisfying ending in terms of quality of presentation. That is what I meant.
For those that think Tyrion will be sitting on the throne at the end of the series I’m afraid I have to disagree. I don’t think the political elements of this show are heading in the direction of another total monarchy. Westeros is in chaos due to many factors. Not least the NK and the invasion of Dany and her hordes of dothraki and unsullied, but by the monarchical system itself. Would the story be that satisfying if we just ended up with someone else on the throne after a big brawl up north? Pretty much everything we have watched would just seem like filler.
Will there even be a throne, iron or otherwise? I honestly don’t know, but if there is it will be purely for a puppet monarchy, where the daily running of the country will be run by a parliament. Enter Tyrion.
Is this kind of outcome even possible? Dany is coming to take what she believes is rightfully hers (monarchy again,) but also to break the wheel (make your mind up kid).
This contrariness will not of gone unnoticed by Tyrion ( and most viewers) as a way of manipulating her, not a betrayal as such but pushing her in the direction he wants her to go. I truly believe Tyrion has a wonderful vision for the future of Westeros, but it does not involve a throne.
I’ve just ordered HBO… and I’m sitting here watching ‘Possession’ with Gwyneth Paltrow and Aaron Eckhart; two of my very favorite actors. And guess who’s also in it??? LENA HEADY!
The score is fantastic! Sounds like Raimin’s romanticism.
Yay me!
I’m in the “great game now.”
Lady Sybil,
I agree. I don’t see a single throne at the end of this. In my perfect ending Davos, Sam, Tyrion and Brienne are basically in charge of organizing post-wheel breaking.
We need more intelligence and compassion in Westeros leadership, less burn them all.
Talk about modern problems.
Off-topic but not sure where else to post it; apologies if we’ve already seen this. There’s in interesting in-depth article on the BBC News website about GoT and the effect it’s had on Northern Ireland. It includes interviews with people who’ve done behind the scenes work like assistant directing, editing and providing “animal skins, body parts and full taxidermied animals”, some of whom worked their way up as the show progressed from being runners to quite senior positions.
Davos as International Trade Minister.
Sam as Education Minister.
Brienne as Defence Minister.
Yeah, I know. It was kind of the point. 🙂
Some of the above comments have really made me think of the Lannister sibling dynamic. It seems straight forward enough. The twins, lovers. Cersei hates Tyrion, Jaime loves him.
If you step back a bit and look at them, Cersei and Tyrion are far more similar than both care to admit, and Jaime is the odd one out. He’s politically naive, has no desire for power, no desire to rule, only does things for (misguided) love, actually deeply cares about honour that he’s forever denied after killing the Mad King.
Tyrion and Cersei couldn’t give a rat’s arse about honour. They plot and scheme for power and control. Both are motivated by resentment and bitterness, and a desire for Tywin’s approval. Neither know what love really is. Cersei says she loves her children but they’re really just her possessions, extentions of herself (as is Jaime) and her tickets to power; Tyrion’s so lost he falls in love with gold-digging whores like Shae for some validation. The crucial difference is that Tyrion does have a kind of a moral compass, he knows right and wrong, he does have empathy for other people, and he is brave.
Now, Jaime seems to lack a moral compass, doesn’t seem to know right from wrong, seems to lack empathy, is an arrogant arsehole when we first meet him. All very Cersei traits. It’s too simplistic to blame all on Cersei’s malign influence – Jaime went along with it all for a decade and a half – but away from Cersei, especially with Brienne, he’s beginning to see things differently. Connect with the honourable, knightly boy he was, his dreams and ambitions. Maybe seeing it’s not all lost. Hell, he even left Cersei to fight for the living because he gave his word. His word might not mean much to most of Westeros (the Kingslayer effect) but it meant a lot to him. More than his “love” for Cersei.
Now, knowing Jaime’s story is mostly a weird love story (the clue is in the name, J’aime = ‘I love’ in French), should we look about for some other love..?
There will not be a happy ending for Jaime, even if Bran forgives him (NCW has hinted at this in interviews) and little murder princess doesn’t kill him, or Queen Dany doesn’t roast him on sight for killing her mad father. No, he’ll survive a bit longer, maybe kill Cersei in a Greek tragedy type of thing. Karma. No happy retirement for Jaime.
Tyrion, on the other hand… I can see him betraying Dany/Jon but still somehow surviving. He’d be hated by the lords and the smallfolk (monkey demon) but a small man can cast a large shadow. He and Sansa in a platonic ressurrected marriage could be a very power couple. She has the North (and Vale, Riverlands), he has the south. Well, maybe not.
Coming back to the Lannister siblings dynamic, it wouldn’t surprise me if Jaime proved the most loyal to Dany and especially Jon (Rhaegar’s child, Jaime has a thing about it), and Tyrion not so much, more Lannister (Cersei) loyal. I love the speculation on here, and can’t wait to see how it all pans out.
RG,
I will not attempt to defend Cersei but saying that she’s responsible for his actions does Jamie no favors. Is he an idiot devoid of a personality of his own? I mean, I admit to having had that opinion of him at some point or another. Especially when he kept repeating the “. . . and Moonboy for all I know” line over and over again. Like, hello dumb jock, the chick is cheating on you with just about everyone and you are still doing her bidding? But is he so malleable that Cersei would forced him to do things he was not in agreement with? I am not very sure, you can love someone unconditionally but that doesn’t automatically mean you are blind to who they are and what they do. Cersei never pretended to be decent in front of her brother/lover, he always knew what she was and never really care as long as she loved him.
Hibberd said not to expect the premiere title until Sunday night https://twitter.com/JamesHibberd/status/1116352872625713152
Wow, I’ve finally caught up on all the articles posted this week and am ploughing through a season 6 re-watch ahead of the premiere, so much GOT/ASOIF going on this week.
As for Tyrion, I must admit I’m worried with the speculation and articles like this I sense he’s not going to survive the series. He’s probably my third favourite character behind Jon and Arya so this is going to sting.
“I do hereby command Tyrion of House Lannister, Hand of the Queen, to serve as Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm upon my death, to rule in my stead, until the heir does come of age …”
I don’t think Tyrion will stick with Dany – there were some good-sized hints that he’s not comfortable even while he worships her. Nor do I think that Dany is the hero of this series. Of course I love her character, but she has a bit of that Targaryan megalomania in her and I think that will be her ultimate downfall. I suspect the bits of Tyrion’s unhappiness with her will culminate in one more thing she does to push him away.
But I don’t think he will run back to Cercei. I think there are three factions right now – the Night King and his army, Jon/Dany and their army, and Cercei/Euron and their army. I could see a fourth faction break away with Tyrion – and maybe even a splintering between Jon/Dany (I don’t ship them to the end, sorry). I still remember how close Jon and Tyrion were and I think Tyrion also really looks up to him. Throw Sansa in the mix too.
I’m also still convinced that Tyrion’s parentage is still in play, but maybe that ship has sailed for the TV show.
Jack Hamm,
Wow!!! I watched Possession when it was first released many a moon ago. (Isn’t Jennifer Ehle in it? I love her.) Now I need to re-watch it!!!
So many ideas here, reading through the comments. It really is anyone’s guesss how this is going to unfold.
I will say- I was saying immediately skeptical of Tyrion following a few of his looks last season- most people suggested I was seeing Grumpkins. Seems more people are now on board with some type of deception, or at least, some covert, non-sanctioned negotiating. Whether he does or not- who knows. But I still believe there will be drama centered on the youngest Lannister.
We will find out real soon….
Must have been pretty nuts, and extremely special, to be Djawadi- experiencing this final season solo. Can’t wait to hear what he’s come up with (no flutes!)
Ugh. Didn’t know Linda actually voiced such a view, ugh.
But yeah, there are many over at that place (perhaps newer members?) who think Sansa was just a shallow tween bitch for not letting Tyrion have what he deserved, or some such.
I should add, far more people over there think the opposite, that Sansa was brave, had some agency and was absolutely right to draw some boundaries. Even understand Tyrion’s desire, commend his restraint and feel sorry for him for feeling the way he does.
I think that the beauty of GRRM’s writing is that we see a glimpse of something dark, unpleasant, in Tyrion (and in ourselves), but then we see him fight and conquer it, so we end up understanding, maybe even liking him (and ourselves) more, in a deeper way, not just the funny dwarf with the quips.
The show hasn’t gone into this depth, firstly because of Sophie’s age at the time, and secondly maybe because they wanted audience sympathies with Tyrion. TBH, he’s become a bit bland. I fully expext S8 to change that and bring back the witty, devious man we all love.
talvikorppi,
“Tyrion’s so lost he falls in love with gold-digging whores like Shae for some validation.”
Wowza. I would never reduce Shae’s character to a gold digging whore. What makes you judge her that way?
All these comments by the cast about the ending are giving me a headache. I hope Tyrion doesn’t betray Dany, I don’t really think the show has set up this properly…in the books Tyrion is a more ambiguous figure; in the show they’ve made him much, much more of an outright hero than he’s in the books, I don’t think it would track?
That said, someone will definitely betray Dany in the final season…the show skipped spelling out the three fires and three betrayals predictions of the House of the Undying BUT they definitely have shown them. Heck, the show has shown a “fire” that hasn’t made it to the books yet:
“Three fires must you light”
“Life”-The pyre that gave life to the dragons in the first book and on episode 1.10
“Death”- The fire that killed all the Khals in episode 6.04
“Love”-???? 8th season presumably
“Three treasons will you know”
“Blood”-Mirri Maz Duur betrays Dany with “blood magic”
“Gold”-Dany finds about Jorah and banishes him
“Love”-???? 8th season presumably? Jon? Tyrion?
I would bet that one (or both ) of the “Love” ones is George’s remaining WTF moment for the ending
talvikorppi,
I agree about Tyrion being bland in the show the past few seasons . I know a lot of people hated Tyrion in ADWD too, but he never felt like an afterthought or he was taking a backseat. He has become a secondary character to Dany and Jon, and that’s been disappointing. Hopefully he has a momentous final season.
ramses,
That’s exactly what book Shae was. Show Shae was different, which made her turning on Tyrion and Sansa seem out of character.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Meh I read the books too and disagree.
Well…judging from their published comments, both George AND D&D seem to disagree with you.
I agree with you that Jaime, as an adult, must bear responsibility for his actions. He could’ve said “no” if he had any moral fortitude.
However, as a book reader, I profoudly disagree with your facile assertion that Jaime always knew what Cersei was. AFFC (book 4 in the series) is very much centered on Jaime having the scales rent from his eyes, beginning to see Cersei for what she truly is.
He’s increasingly irritated by what he sees, he sees the folly of her actions. He dislikes things she does, he notices her drinking and recklessness (Cersei always used to blame Jaime for being reckless, haha), he doesn’t like the way she treats Tommen.
He realises she only gives him sex when she wants something. He even rejects her in the White Sword Tower – his holy place – and he doesn’t want to blindly do Cersei’s bidding anymore. She immediately turns on him, mocks him where it hurts – cripple, no hand, unmanned. Sends him away to the Riverlands as punishment (also to get him away from her schemes), and it’s there Jaime really begins to think about his life, his love. It’s there that Jaime begins to try to do good. He’s got illusions, delusions, of “Goldenhand the Just” but he’s actually very pragmatic and merciful. Not Tywinesque at all, he never was a chip off that old block.
AFFC ends with Jaime burning Cersei’s letter, her pleas for help (“I love you, I love you, I love you”) but I don’t think we’ve seen the end of Jaime and Cersei in the books yet. Certainly not in the show.
Yeah, and then GRRM had Tyrion rape a sex slave in ADWD because he has no restraint
Books. The show made her nicer. But she was in Tywin’s bed, why? Because she was coerced? Threatened or scared? C’mon! Even the show pointed to what she was, a gold-digger.
talvikorppi,
How did the show point out she was a gold digging whore?
It’s kind of the point, isn’t it? Long after his marriage time with Sansa, Tyrion has fallen so low that he has no restraint, he would do it.
By our modern standards, that was clearly rape. By their medieval Essosi standards, it wasn’t. Clients in a whorehouse clearly don’t think they’re raping the girls. They’ve paid their coppers, got the girl…
It’s actually a positive mark against Tyrion’s name that he empathises with her and clearly feels he’s doing wrong, even if he does it. I doubt many other customers would even have thought such thoughts.
The episode was put there by GRRM to tell us that even at his absolute lowest, Tyrion had his moral compass. Didn’t heed it, but it was there and he felt bad about what he did. After he did it, of course.
The show, of course, simplified that episode, made it less morally ambiguous for Tyrion. The gallant man in the Volantene brothel just couldn’t do it (haha).
talvikorppi,
Danny,
This. And yeah, I’m not saying he’s perfect or blameless. I kind of think he was an idiot without a mind of his own for a while. But she did hide who she was from him a lot-even more so in the books.
But then Brienne saved him and he jumped into a bear pit. He gave her his sword. He saved his brother from being killed for a crime he didn’t commit. And now he’s going to fight with Jon Snow.
Given a choice and the opportunity, he changed. Not adapting or changing sides for survival like LF, but difficult, messy growth as a person.
It’s a great character arc.
The only sibling who has never changed, despite surviving every season, is Cersei. Her circumstances have, but she hasn’t. She has always been what she is, and her first instinct-from having Lady killed to having Ellaria’s daughter killed-is always violent and twisted retribution.
Even the Mountain is more obedient now. Though to be fair…
By the fact that she was with Tywin, surely? Either she was paid all along to spy on/betray Tyrion (I doubt it) or she was persuaded to do so after Tyrion sent her away (she was a fool to believe he truly meant it), either way, she sold him out to/for Tywin. The most obvious motive was money.
Oh no! This just in from EW (Hibberd) today in an interview with Sophie Turner:
Q: How is her relationship with Jon now that he’s brought home his new girlfriend?
Sophie Turner: “Her relationship with Jon isstruggling because he’s so clearly in love with Daenerys and believes in her completely. Sansa thinks she’s power-hungry and not the rightful queen. There’s a huge amount of fighting between Sansa and Jon.”
So
in S8. 😡
aiad,
Except Tyrion is not a good guy – show Tyrion is nicer but book Tyrion is a very dark character. George Martin even calls Tyrion a ‘villain’. The fact that they didn’t show the ending of his conversation with Cersie last season is a huge red flag for me. His reaction to the Lannister soldiers being killed was also quite telling. I think Dany had it right when she called him out on wanting to protect his family. When push comes to shove, he won’t bet against his family. I wonder if he won’t die and Jamie ends up surviving because it’s what everyone expects so the opposite will happen.
ramses,
You didn’t think she was a gold digger or a whore in the books? I thought it was rather obvious. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen someone argue otherwise. It was a way to survive. I get it. But I never got the sense that she was with Tyrion for any reason but his money. And she was literally a whore.
Uhm… Languoursly luxuriating in Tywin’s bed?
If she’d felt coerced, threatened, afraid, even loyal to Tyrion, she would have grabbed her clothes and skedaddled while Tywin went off to the loo. But no. She stayed, comfortably relaxing in Tywin’s luxurious bed, enjoying all the trappings, the real big lion.
Exactly. There will so few left of the ruling elite that we know of, it’ll be left to those remaining to rebuild a fairer society without the trappings/threat of immense wealth, power or dragons. The broken wheel.
They both have the experience of governance and restoring order, and Sansa has been groomed for leading since S1.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
talvikorppi,
Yeah the show made it so much more of a shocker when she betrayed him. Shae from the books was awful and obviously just there for the money. Show Shae was protective and understanding and a lot more mysterious. Like, sure she was a prostitute, but maybe she was more than that. Maybe she really… Nope.
Ten Bears,
I hope that’s trolling. Poor Jon, seriously. Can’t he have a moment of happiness like Sam? All he gets is a few minutes in a cave or on a boat, and then everyone wants to argue with him unless he’s putting his life in danger, AGAIN, to save them all. Geesh.
I guess Beric was right. “You and I won’t find much joy while we’re here.”
Everything has to change once Sansa sees the army of the dead. If it doesn’t, then there is nothing to really say, other than Sansa needs to get over the passive aggressive shit and just poison Jon and take control if it bothers her that much.
Tyrion: You’ll have your own cabin, of course, and across the Narrow Sea a house, servants.
Shae: What is this?
Tyrion: I’m a married man. My wife has suffered a great deal, as you well know. I don’t want her to suffer anymore on my account. I need to uphold my vows.
Shae: She doesn’t want you.
Tyrion: I need to do right by her.
Shae: You don’t want her.
Tyrion: By our children.
Shae: What are you afraid of?
Tyrion: I’m not afraid.
Shae: You are. You are afraid of your father and your sister. You’re going to run from them all your life?
Tyrion: I need you to leave.
Shae: I’m not afraid of them. I’m not going to run.
Tyrion: Shae.
Shae: We will fight them together. It’s like you said, I am yours and you are mine.
Tyrion: You’re a whore! Sansa is fit to bear my children and you are not. I can’t be in love with a whore. I can’t have children with a whore. How many men have you been with?
Shae: How many whores have you been with?
Tyrion: I have enjoyed my time with all of them and I have enjoyed my time with you most of all. But now that time is over. You’ll have a comfortable life in Pentos. Bronn will escort you to your ship.
Season 4 Episode 2 – The Lion and the Rose
Tyrion Pimpslap,
She’s seen a giant. She’s accepted the fact that everyone around him says Jon died, that her other brother is a seer and her sister carries a backpack full of human faces. She’s about to see dragons-it’s in the trailer.
I mean, if that doesn’t make you juggle your priorities a bit, I’m not sure that a zombie army will either. But here’s hoping.
Che,
Remember that she was offered vast wealth by Varys to leave Tyrion and refused. She was also handsomely rewarded when she was despatched by Tyrion.
She was visibly heartbroken- and I think this led to her wanting to get revenge on him for effectively using her and breaking her heart when he grew tired of her (in her eyes).
I know Shae was a whore and had been forced into prostitution since she was a child. However I don’t think she was motivated purely by money. I believe she loved Tyrion. And when she showed up at his trial battered and bruised, she turned on Tyrion after she was first deeply betrayed by him.
Bronn found her for him and then escorts her away……to Tywins chamber. Absolutely a set up that one. Am sure Tyrion will bring it up next time they meet. He’s one slippery feller that Bronn and no mistake.
This is so great. GoT being based in NI has helped the economy and image.
Obviously a big production spends a lot of money in the local economy while they’re there, but I think the real worth comes from the skills they’ve left behind.
All those work experience teens and apprentices from 2010 or something. Now fully qualified professionals in big TV/movie production. It’s a great legacy for GoT to leave. I might grumble about the tax breaks but leaving an educated, skillfull workforce behind is almost as good as paying fair tax.
Also, GoT has done miracles for the international image of NI. People wanting to come and visit, see the locations. Forgetting the old image of “the Troubles” (polite English political jargon for a civil war sponsored by them). Let’s hope Brexit doesn’t wreck that. NI is an amazing place.
It’s also a great, enchantig book by A.S Byatt.
talvikorppi,
In the show I thought it was obvious Tywin manipulated her. Like others said, I think she really loved Tyrion. Tywin probably said something like, Tyrion clearly doesn’t want you anymore and can’t protect you, so you can die a whore’s death, or you can sell him out and become my whore, and live well.
Shae’s always been a survivor. The show is full of people who do what they need to do to survive. What else was she supposed to do? I know I’d be the gold-digging whore all the way if those were my options.
talvikorppi,
You’re right, it’s a real genius move to make your main character a rapist. Who feels bad. What amazing nuance.
Over time I think Shae grew to truly care for Tyrion, perhaps even love him. The problem was that Shae was ignorant about the danger Tyrion and she were in at the time despite Tyrion’s many warnings. He knew their relationship had no way of working out in King’s Landing as long as Tywin was there. She just refused to face the hard truth.
I kind of wish Tyrion would’ve told Shae right away when Cersei imprisoned Ros. Maybe Shae would’ve had a better understanding of the danger they were really in at the time.
In S7 E2 The camera is focused on Daenerys and the moment Daenerys starts telling Varys about her brother Viserys Tyrion appears in the background. Jaime and Cersei, Theon and Yara, Tyrion and Daenerys, each brother and sister have the same Father. Tyrion gave Jon Snow advice about being a bastard because Tyrion is a bastard. Season 8 could have a bit of A Dance with Dragons.
When Joffery dies he points his finger with a black ring on it at Tyrion. In season 8 I predict
ramses,
So?
That’s just an example of how Shae manipulated Tyrion. She screams, he loses resolve and does as Shae wants. The books have multiple examples. The show made it more of a love story.
Maybe she did have a smidgeon of affection for him – certainly in the show, never in the books – but her final “betrayal” (Tyrion’s trial) was not motivated by being scared or jealousy. Her relaxing in Tywin’s bed tells the story of her motivation.
I’m sorry if you cannot accept that Shae was a gold-digging whore, even in the show. Yes, she was a lively, intriguing character, a good handmaiden to Sansa. Smart and fiesty and beautiful. I always liked show!Shae more than book!Shae.
But let’s not delude ourselves here. The story point is that Tyrion believed she loved him (she didn’t) and it adds to his character arc.
dm,
Why do you think she really loved Tyrion?
Ten Bears,
I think 90% of that is trolling. Didn’t she say very similar things before S7 and we were all expecting a huge amount of strife between them when all it amounted to was a couple of arguments?
Hopefully either Jon’s big parentage reveal or the AOTD coming a-nockin’ will quickly sweep away any angsty bickering between the Starks.
talvikorppi,
Huh……what’s an example of how Shae manipulated Tyrion?
talvikorppi,
Like discussed above, the scene where Tyrion tries to send her off with money and she doesn’t want that? She wants to stay with him despite the danger to herself and doesn’t want to believe he thinks of her as just another whore. If she just wanted money, why would she care what he thought? She could have gone to Tywin from the start without making a fuss but she didn’t, until Tyrion purposely broke her heart to try to scare her off. It backfired for Tyrion, but not because Shae never loved him.
Yes, show things, that I can try to explain away until book!Shae and show!Shae end up in the exact same place: in Tywin’s bed to be murdered by Tyrion.
I can try and hand-wave away Varys’s offer. Maybe Shae thought she could get more from Tyrion, haha. Anyway, that’s a show thing, no such thing happened in the books.
Maybe show!Shae really luuurved Tyrion but turned on him out of (unfounded, unexplained) female jealousy, then bonked his dad for an extra “So there!” statement.
That kind of writing would actually be very disappointing. Full of same old, same old Carry On chiches. Kind of misogynistic as well. The whore must looove the guy etc.
See how it’s about the guy, not her.
I don’t mind show!Shae (book!Shae was always extremely annoying), I’m glad she was in the show, and she was so expertly portrayed by Sibel Kekilli. But let’s not delude ourselves here, it was never a great love story.
talvikorppi,
Thank you!!! I knew it was a book, but hadn’t heard from anyone who’s read it.
If they make Tyrion an idiot over some feeling of loyalty to a supposed womb-gremlin of Cersei’s, after all she’s done to him, it will be completely ridiculous.
I don’t see Tyrion dying for much the same reason I don’t see Sansa dying. The whole season is going to be huge battles and they can’t kill everyone, but these two won’t be fighting. Moreover, they’re in the command centers, in the most protected position you can possibly be in, surrounded by people whose job is to protect them. For them to die, basically all defenses would be overrun and everyone would die. Neither George nor the showrunners can seriously just kill everyone.
Yes, yes!! Such poor, poor writing!! No, no, I need to do better.
I mean – it is not zero. You are quite correct!!!!
I had a clash between what I think – non-zero.
And what I want – Zero.
So I inadvertently made a mess.
Count me in on this – why waste such a well-built character.
talvikorppi,
If Jaime turns loyal to Daenerys and Jon – then I will hope he dies. He would be a dumber person than I thought the writer was building.
Ally with them for the AOTD yes, but no more.
Apollo,
That was always my understanding of Show!Shae’s actions, and I’m frankly surprised to see where this discussion has gone.
Tyrion Toast
Tyrion loves his family.
Wolfish,
Yes she is! I will need to go back and rewatch it as I had to leave and run a few errands. I’ve never seen her in anything and it will be interesting comparing her with La Clarke.
I agree! Sansa’s Wedding (and wedding night) to Tyrion in the book was such a powerful moment of development for her where she started to truly show some inner strength. I wish that version had been done on the show instead of her crying when she finds out… I get not doing the wedding night, but the wedding, that was doable…
but they wanted to soften Tyrion’s character and give the Tyrells more dialog too… worth reading if you haven’t.
It is interesting it made you like him more, I had a very different interpretation… his failing to consummate the marriage was more about his insecurities and not liking how Sansa viewed him. He actually did ‘want’ her (she is young and beautiful) and him changing his mind wasn’t due to his better nature, but more about her inability of hide her revulsion of him (she was willing out of duty, but not happy about it). It was not honor or sympathy for her… she was young and NOT attracted to him in any physical way at all… and he was used to whores who either didn’t care or faked it well, so he could forget he was different. Afterwards he is really embarrassed by it as everyone knows, but even the taunts can’t make him go through with it, not because of how she would feel, but because of how it made him feel inferior.
I remember that book was when Tyrion started to display more of his ‘grey’ areas and it was interesting to show even intelligent/sympathetic Tyrion has some blind spots (Shae) and darkness (power corrupts) in him. He was never horrible to her and always treated her kindly, but he was dealing with a lot and never really had time to truly deal/talk with her… and was often making decisions w/o even considering talking to her or asking what she wanted, or even letting her know his plans (sending her to away from Joffery). But I do think given time they could have made it work, at least on a platonic level, but neither had time or interest to work anything out.
I don’t need Tyrion on the throne in order for his story to be satisfying. But I agree he has never been the villian on the show and usually does everything with good in mind… like Dany and Jon. I think at worst he will be conflicted – but whatever he does, HE will believe it is for the best… whether he is right or wrong will probably be debatable… as many of the character decisions on GOT are ^_^
cosca,
It’s a genius move to show he’s waaaay far below his very own standards though. It’s a genius move to show that he simply cannot move on from the horrible things he did (killing Tywin, feeling rejected by everyone for being him, blaming himself for not believing or defending Tysha, etc) the way fantasy characters tend to. That’s some deep shit psychological stuff he cannot overcome and thus he’s lashing out and abusing someone even lower than him. He’s simply cannot rise above. It will take Penny to prove he can do good to someone who’s lower or more helpless than he is.
And you of course hate the whole shebang because to you “where the whores go” is annoying and it is just a repetitive phrase who no meaning.
Jesus Christ cosca, stop trolling.
Adam,
I don’t think they will kill main characters in battle, they never did. If some of the main characters are dying this season, it’s going to be in some special way.
Apart from that, I do think everyone will have to fight or flee at some point. I don’t think there will be a safe place. If the Night King comes with Viserion, the walls of Winterfell will fall too.
Jack Hamm,
Funny, I just commented about her in the latest post!
Jennifer Ehle was actually the original Catelyn, but decided to bow out because she’d very recently given birth. You may have seen her in the BBC’s definitive adaptation of Pride and Prejudice (with Colin Firth—she’s a splendid Elizabeth Bennet), briefly reunited with Firth in The King’s Speech, or in Zero Dark Thirty. She has a Tony or two as well. 🙂
I took that scene to represent Tyrion witnessing the carnage that Dany is capable of rather than a need to save his family. He undoubtedly loves his brother but I don’t think there is any more than that.
Wolfish,
I think we have to conclude it will contain spoilers of sorts then Jack. I wonder if they will preview the following weeks episode afterwards like they usually do?
TormundsWoman,
It would be incredible if for once GRRM could ever have someone move on. But no, everything and everyone has to descend into a self pitying mess. Feast and Dance are just filled with characters trudging around feeling sorry for themselves, endlessly repeating the same lines like self-flagellating zombies. It’s as if they’re all the same damn character now
viki,
I agree that Tyrion does not have to be the leader. My preference is Jaime, Tyrion as his Hand – if Jaime can trust him again. Sansa as next preference if both men die.
Tyrion betrayed Jaime and Joanna when he killed Tywin. He became exactly what Cersei said he was. Jaime has supported his two siblings beyond the call of duty – he loves them both to a fault.
Tyrion also betrayed his countrymen when he brought a hostile army to subjugate and rule them. I hope he comes to his senses in S8 and tried to remedy the mistake.
Jon the Undead always tries to do good. Daenerys is a tyrant – a mix of ego, entitlement, and incompetence.
If I were writing S8, I would have Daenerys kill Jon (again) to make her claim to the throne stronger. Then we would need an assassin – Arya would have to kill her. In S1, there was a conversation that Arya overheard with a discussion of Drogo etc. so we may see the point of that scene.
Cersei? ..Euron will take care of her. Or she will kill herself.
Good question. I wouldn’t be surprised at this point if there are no previews for the following episode. If they won’t release episode titles beforehand, why would they release footage of the episode?
In some ways I hope they don’t, it would certainly keep us all on the edge of our seats having no idea what is coming. I’d certainly be surprised if they do it for the finale.
cosca,
He sent Jon to be killed in the north. The expedition to capture a wight was Tyrion’s idea. And after that, he tried to stop Daenerys from going north and save Jon.
Giov,
Jon volunteered for that shit
talvikorppi,
Love what you said. Having always lived in South East England I was an outside observer of the Troubles, but for those of us who remember them, the situation in NI compared to what it was is nothing short of miraculous. In my teens and 20s I used to wonder if the region would ever see peace in my lifetime, and just a generation later, look where they are. If someone had told me then what they’d achieve I’d never have believed it possible. Gives me hope that everyone affected by conflict might one day be in the same position.
(Neither would I have been able to grasp joining in a conversation with people from all over the world – including countries which didn’t exist then, were totally cut off from mine behind the Iron Curtain, or pariahs due to aparthied – using an affordable computer with greater processing capability than the most powerful computers in the world at the time, about a show broadcast and discussed on media which didn’t exist and uses CGI beyond the wildest dreams of what could be done. But that’s another matter.)
Jon Snowed,
Now I’m imagining what the show would have been like if it had episode titles like a ramped up version of the ones for Friends:
1×10 – Dany is officially fireproof and some actual f**king dragons have hatched
3×9 – Roose Bolton participates in Robb, Catelyn and Talisa’s deaths in Twins’ wedding scene Stark massacre
5×10 – After burning his own daughter alive, Stannis’s army is wiped out by Ramsay Bolton, shortly before Brienne kills him in revenge for Renly’s death
6×9 – Sansa feeds Ramsay to his own dogs after the Bolton/Karstark/Umber shock last minute defeat by the Stark/Mormont/Wildling/Knights of the Vale alliance
7×7 – The Night King uses a wight Viserion to breach the Wall. Everybody run for the hills!!
etc 😀
Lulus Mum,
LOVE this comment. As someone who was a teenager in the 80s, during the last days of the Cold War, and who first saw a personal computer at 16, I can’t fathom why so many people complain about technology and social media. Thirty years ago I could scarcely have imagined being a part of this wonderful community right here!
cosca,
It’s pretty spot on though in a world as cruel and unforgiving as that one. Every one of those characters are introspective and analyzing their way forward while either regretting something or torturing themselves about questionable decisions or simply feeling like they’re not good enough or up to someone else’s expectations. He’s writing interesting characters who don’t breeze their way righteously through the world but take stock of their own actions while displaying a large rainbow of human feelings good and bad all intermixed (unless you’re Ramsay, or Joff). It’s really what set Martin apart from the rest of the fantasy writers for me.
Are you not happy now you’ve brought books in discussion?! ☺️ Let me tell you about Quentin, the tragic story of a true regular dude, next door guy who’s trying to do his duty, match his father’s expectations and rise to the challenge of helping his land by traveling around the world to see if he’s good enough for Dany, the mother of dragons, the breaker of chains who is completely out of his league.
I recently saw the Ferryman on stage in NYC. I realized that they were people in the audience that would have not yet been born when the NI ceasefire was agreed/ implemented.
As for technology – it has exposed us to a new set of vulnerabilities. But I suppose it is a net gain.
Hi, Lulu’s Mum!
Ooo, maybe the title is spoilerific? Do you think that’s why? What would your favorite title be, thinking that the title was a spoiler?
Mine would be “The Kings of Winter” because one of my very favorite pet theories (that probably won’t pan out but I’ll scream so loudly if it does, much louder than I screamed when Arya took Lord Frey’s face off as that panned out) is that the Starks will awaken the stone kings and their direwolves in the crypts of Winterfell. Lots of book evidence this will happen in Jon’s dreams, mostly in Book 1, but also some of Bran’s and even Ned’s dreams and visions. Dozens of references to the eyes of the stone kings following folks around.
D&D are completely and amazingly brilliant. But. But I’m really bothered by two attributions from the Dink that imply D&D created the ending. Surely the ending was created by George. Right? Adapted, yes, D&D obviously did that and hopefully did that brilliantly.
Hi, Wolfish! I once had a nightmare that turned into a sweet dream about being 15 again in the 80s. We must be of an age. I’m class of ’91.
The moment I realized that I couldn’t answer any question with Google, I began to panic. I’m like, do I have to go to the library? The card catalog? The Dewey Decimal system? Are you kidding me?!!!! Just give me Google!
But then I realized I could take all of my college money and buy Microsoft stock. And then Amazon. And then Google.
GRRM may as well have written a 12 chapter arc about me stubbing my toe, be about as thrilling
cosca,
You do your toe a disservice with that kind of talk. Try hitting it. See how it hurts. The abuse your toe, ANY toe, takes and the fact it goes forever unacknowledged and unappreciated just because it is an appendage we take for granted that it is there and it will do its job it’s enough for a 4 chapter arc (which is the total of Quentyn Martell’s POV chapters).
I CAN DO THIS ALL DAY! #BookFanForevah
Hi, Sister Kisser!
I definitely believe Tyrion, who is already a turncoat, will turn coat again.
Wolfish,
Congrats on your win the other day (it was you wasn’t it? If not, it should have been!) It’s not that we are getting old I feel, more that other people are somehow getting younger. Someone obviously broke the space time continuum 😉
In their defence, no matter what age you are, you can only compare to what you’re used to. When I sigh about having to buy stuff that clears limescale from a kettle, someone from the 18th century, or sadly still some very poor communities today, would be flabbergasted at my access to a ready supply of clean, safe water, electricity etc, which I don’t consider because I’ve been lucky enough to never not have them. Bit of an extreme example maybe, but it’s all relative I guess.
Mango,
I can’t believe it was so long ago. I read a news report about possible Bloody Sunday prosecutions a few weeks ago. It said difficulties are caused by a number of potential witnesses having since died. Not because of the Troubles, but from age-related problems. They would have been in their teens and 20s at the time. Things definitely speed up as you get older!
Like so many things in life, I feel technology can go either way. Some people use it for great things, others for terrible ones, and most are in the middle somewhere, like us using it to talk about a TV show 😀
Ginevra,
Hi honey, long time no see! *waves furiously*
They have been a bit inconsistent with possible spoilers I feel. For S6 the title “Battle of the Bastards” wasn’t released until very close to the air date, but the trailer clearly showed a big battle. I guess they thought the name might give away Jon being alive, but the idea must have crossed the minds of people who paid close attention to the trailer anyway. And those who either avoided it or didn’t really think about it would either avoid or not lend much thought to episode titles.
As someone who devours spoilers for GoT, the more they give me in advance the better I like it. I want to be emotionally prepared, not have things suddenly sprung on me. The one I most want is Shireen’s death was fake. As per Lulu’s Mum’s cannon, she was rescued beforehand by Davos and is safe and happy and no bad things will ever happen to her. Failing that, ones which are mega specific to me would be good. At XXX mins and XXX seconds shut your eyes, turn the sound down/up, look at the thing on the wall behind X, you can take a break for XXX mins and XXX seconds and won’t miss anything interesting. That sort of thing.
But would the undead in the crypts be dangerous, like the wights? Or more like their original personalities. If it’s the former – yikes! The latter – yay! more Starks.
Ginevra,
High-school class of ‘87. I was the youngest. I wanted to graduate even earlier (I had already skipped a grade and a half), but the school district insisted on keeping me around to torture for another year. I’m 49.
My parents are American and I was born in Brazil; my mom decided to come back to the States in 1981. We arrived on July 31, MTV went on the air on August 1, and the air-traffic controllers went on strike on August 3. It was quite the week.
Google v. Dewey… That’s priceless!!! Thanks for sharing.
Lulus Mum,
Thank you!!!
And… agreed. 🙂
In Jon’s dream, they kept telling him he wasn’t a Stark. And we also heard several times in Book 1 that a Stark must always be at Winterfell. And we’ve heard throughout that Winterfell is the last great defense in the North after the Wall. So I believe the King’s of Winter can only be commanded by a true Stark.
The Barrowlands, south of Winterfell, will provide fodder for the White Walkers: millions of wights, I fear.
Ginevra,
Not quite that many. Remember, when Jon asked Tyrion how many people lived in King’s Landing and the response was “a million, give or take,” Jon said, “That’s more people than live in the entire North.” Cold comfort (no pun intended), I grant you.
So, you are not as old as dirt either.
“I am disappointed” – said the same way that Blackfish spoke to Jaime.
Mango,
LMAOOO!!!
It’s all in one’s perspective, I suppose. I work for the California Conservation Corps, a youth-training program for people 18 to 25 (environmental restoration, fire prevention, firefighting, etc.), and they gasp when I tell them I remember the world before the Internet. If I’m really in a mood, I can see the smoke come out of their ears when I tell them I didn’t see frozen food, canned soda, clothes dryers, or automatic doors until I was 11 (all things I didn’t grow up with in Latin America in the 70s).
Nice nod to the Blackfish. That line, and the way he delivers it, is one of my very favorite moments. I’d love to see him again, even as a Wightfish. 😂
Piffle, I have not gotten any notifications since yesterday morning…what the flarp!
I am not quite as old as dirt, except for some dirt of course, the dirt that happens to be my age. But I am very happy to have experienced life in the pre and post internet age. We had a 1984 Apple computer (my parents had a small company) so that was pretty crazy for our small town, I would turn it on and come back in half an hour to see if I could play Lode Runner yet. I remember card catalogs, but also sneaking down to the computer lab in high school to check out this whole internet thing, where websites were mostly text and there were those big chatrooms. Same computer lab I played Oregon Trail on a few years earlier.
I spend an insane amount of time staring at this teeny device that I never use as an actual phone (if I can help it), but can look up the population of the Seychelles in 5 seconds with. But I will always prefer a real, actual book to a screen version. I absorb information much better from a textbook than a PDF.
Fortunately I still haven’t died of dysentery.
There is a lot that I agree with here. Perhaps we should say leader or leadership. There will be a coordination problem between people so a leader (person or team) is needed. It does not have to be a monarch – but it is convenient to say throne/king….to help us discuss this person/position.
I like this observation on Tyrion having a great knowledge exposure to Westeros and Essos.
Everyone meets at Dragon Pit but before that is where we see the truly central characters that are set up for the future.
Tyrion has contact with nearly all the major characters in his storyline in both Westeros and Essos.
I would also say that Jaime also has nearly all the leaders/rulers in his Westeros only storyline. All the ones that Tyrion met and also Dorne, Roose, Frey, High Sparrow, Blackfish, Edmure. Jaime also leads the army and so has exposure many common folk.
Sansa also has a lot of interactions in the story as well.
Tyrion, Jaime, Sansa, and Brienne have walked/traveled throughout Westeros. They know the country and the people.
Jon spent nearly his entire storyline is a restricted area of the north. Daenerys has recently arrived and knows nothing of Westeros in person.
You are correct, we need to ask why?
Ginevra,
Nice to see you, Ginerva!!! I am scared of your spoiler covered content…………… doing my best to go in blind.
I just hope the potential Tyrion turn-cloaking has a good rationale, and that, as someone said above, really isn’t just bc Cersei convinces him that she’s preggo.
Mango,
Arya. And Arya has the additional experience of having spent years living in poverty and/or with the smallfolk—something none of the others, save perhaps Jorah, has any concept of. (And Jorah went out into the world already a fully-fledged man with formidable fighting skills.)
I will be so completely disappointed if the whitewashed golden boy doesn’t die. >_<
Yes, you make a good point on Arya with smallfolk.
For her future, I still struggle to sort out how she re-integrates as a shapeshifter into a community of regular folk. Lose her magic powers? Not sure.
Be brave! Take courage.
Golden Boy will die someday – that you can be sure of.
He might die in the next 6 episodes. If he does not die during GOT, then in the sequel he will be a goner for sure. Never give up!
In the interim, you could ponder what GRRM is doing when he shows an adult becoming more “whitewashed” as he learns more about himself and life.
Mango,
If you can’t admit that Tyrion is trash in the books and a saint in the show, then there’s nothing I can say to convince you.
KG,
Tell us how you really feel 😄
I’m probably too late for this to be read, but I enjoyed catching up on the responses.
Sister Kisser,
The spoiler is an old one, before there were shows and before there were books, actually! Words of George as he was writing the first book and planning the series. His plans for the series may still contain some big clues and so might be big spoilers.
My guess was definitely wild and could be far from true, but Jon’s quote only applies to the living. Ten or 20 generations of the once-living could be buried in the North.