Northern Ireland set filming possible siege aftermath

Game of Thrones production in Northern Ireland appears to be filming the aftermath of military action. Book and potential show spoilers below.

According to @IrishThrones, the set in Corbet, Banbridge Northern Ireland features “horse trodden grass” and “bruised [t]rebuchet artillery” which suggests that they’re currently filming the aftermath of a siege.

Considering that the Riverlands are being filmed in various locations across Northern Ireland, this is is very likely the siege at Riverrun.

If this proves to be the case, the aforementioned trebuchet could factor into a memorable threat Jaime Lannister makes against Edmure Tully in A Feast for Crows. As book readers may recall, in an effort to coax Catelyn’s brother to surrender, Jaime warns him that, if he’s forced to storm the castle, he’ll “send” Edmure’s baby son to him … “in a trebuchet.”

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    1. if he’s forced to storm the castle, he’ll “send” Edmure’s baby son to him … “in a trebuchet.”

      Although I doubt they will go through with it, I wonder if the Freys will load the tortured Edmure himself into the trebuchet as a means to test BF’s willpower.

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    2. But they can’t make him do that when we all love Jaime! He has opened his heart in a bath, rescued Brienne, said inclusive things about ‘alternative’ relationships, acted all fatherly towards Mrycella. He can’t go back to that mean, arrogant man, he’s moved on! He should not be allowed to be as nuanced and complex as this!

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    3. I must admit, I am really worried about this stuff. All the criticism of Dorne and the Iron Islands masked the fact that the Crows Riverland stuff was pretty bad, too. Moreover, it’s round-about plot is to get Jaime to a point where he’s demonstrating that despite his boyish wishes to show that world that he is his father Mark II, he really is a man with a “soul.” But whatever the Winter story is, it will not be that again.

      The one thing that I am hoping is that they’ve found a way to redo this in what we can begin to see emerging of something involving the protagonists getting people who should be their adversaries to rally behind them. Daeny clearly is going to get the people who think that she should spend the rest of her life in widow’s prison to rally behind her. Jon clearly is going to get people who should think that he’s a traitor/deserter/bastard to rally behind him. Tyrion looks like he’ll be trying to coordinate Meereen.

      So, if they do this so that Jaime is now trying to rally together people who otherwise would have wanted him dead or something along those lines, then perhaps it will not derail the story.

      *fingers crossed*

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    4. Oh goodness, they are really doing it, oh my.
      This storyline has me so excited, I think it will fix the disappointment of Jaime in Dorne, the last year! #getHype

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    5. Ok..they will not do that. I read Jamie’s chapters 1000 times, he threatens the guy so he can be able to siege the damn city and keep his oath to not raise army against Tully’s and Stark’s . Jaime does bad things only “for love”, to protect the one he loves.
      Ok they changed his arc in the show…but this will make him like Ramsay or Stannis so people will not be upset with his death…..but unlike Stannis..we have read how the siege ended… and …i don’t even want to think about it 🙁

      People here know Jaime is dead and they are trolling us 🙁

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    6. Pigeon,

      I think that Jamie and Cersei will go out together or if one dies first the other follows almost immediately. I don’t think Cersei will be gone so soon in the story, do you? Granted, it will more poetic if Cersei sees everyone she ever cared about die before she does with Tyrion as the only survivor of her family.

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    7. Danny:
      Pigeon,

      I think that Jamie and Cersei will go out together or if one dies first the other follows almost immediately.I don’t think Cersei will be gone so soon in the story, do you?Granted, it will more poetic if Cersei sees everyone she ever cared about die before she does with Tyrion as the only survivor of her family.

      I think they will die at the same time. But Jaime will be killed but Lady Stoneheart. I think it’s the best way to finish his arc: “He starts as a bad man but then changes and redeems himself. In the end, however, the sins of his past come back and kill him. Thus settling the debt.” I think it fits thematically with the whole story. It also brings his story with Catelyn and Brienne full circle.

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    8. Fred,

      See I don’t see Brienne as being capable of that type of deceit. I think she will eventually tell Jamie what she’s leading him to and I don’t think LS is ultimately Jamie’s end. I think there’s a good chance that Jamie is the valonqar and that he offs Cersei and then he offs himself out of grief and guilt, emotions Jamie is not known for.

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    9. Jaime was just fine with burning Cersei’s letter and leaving her in King’s Landing to face a trial and possible execution. He didn’t seem all grief stricken and suicidal over that.

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    10. Fred,

      I assume that LS will NOT kill Jaime. She will use him to get what she wants and hell’find a way to escape.
      GRRM is quite consistent in create brothers with unfinished business, separate them and hint at a reunion (Jon-Arya, Sandor-Gregor, Jaime-Tyrion, etc…).
      It’s the base for most of the theories out there.

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    11. Fred: I think they will die at the same time. But Jaime will be killed but Lady Stoneheart. I think it’s the best way to finish his arc: “He starts as a bad man but then changes and redeems himself. In the end, however, the sins of his past come back and kill him. Thus settling the debt.” I think it fits thematically with the whole story. It also brings his story with Catelyn and Brienne full circle.

      It seems like whatever business he has with Lady Stoneheart is going to be settled, one way or another, well before he sees Cersei again.

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    12. So Jaime abandons Cersei after her walk, or better she send him away because he is an idiot who had both her kids die in his hands..and then he just torture a baby while honourable Brienne watch this? What next he rapes Brienne and she kills him for this?
      This doesn’t sound real to me..
      I really wish you are wrong at this article… i don’t want Jaime to die, but what will make me more upset is if he dies without redemption in the show or books..

      Come on Jaime has to live to help either some Ned- Cat or Rhaegar kids, this is the two oaths he wants to keep and what hurts him the most… don’t let him die like that!!

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    13. Maggie,

      Nothing in the article says Jaime is going to die. Someone just was speculating that if LSH didn’t kill him, who would. Jaime could live until the end. I doubt it. I think he dies in battle with the others. But there is no spoiler that he’s dying.

      The idea that Jaime will suddenly get all suicidal just makes me roll my eyes though. He had his suicidal time back when he lost his hand and Brienne told him to live. He’s not going to off himself now. That’s poor character theme and no matter what else you can say about GRRM’s writing, he writes solid character themes.

      If, and I say IF, he’s the valonqar, he’s not going to kill himself in grief. I mean, if they are dying together, it’s because Cersei kills him while he kills her. And I think that’s unlikely.

      ETA: Oh and the trebuchet thing? That’s Jaime being smart, using his shit for honor reputation to make a threat and end a siege. They aren’t actually going to have him fling a baby over a wall.

      But if they do, can it be Gilly’s never aging baby? Because that would be perfect.

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    14. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      Maggie,

      I don’t think anyone thinks he is actually going to fling a baby to death with a trebuchet. LOL.

      Doesn’t “bruised” suggest “used”….?? I know about the empty threat…i just fear they will want to justify his death somehow.

      HotPinkLipstick:
      Maggie,

      Nothing in the article says Jaime is going to die. Someone just was speculating that if LSH didn’t kill him, who would. Jaime could live until the end. I doubt it. I think he dies in battle with the others. But there is no spoiler that he’s dying.

      The idea that Jaime will suddenly get all suicidal just makes me roll my eyes though. He had his suicidal time back when he lost his hand and Brienne told him to live. He’s not going to off himself now. That’s poor character theme and no matter what else you can say about GRRM’s writing, he writes solid character themes.

      If, and I say IF, he’s the valonqar, he’s not going to kill himself in grief. I mean, if they are dying together, it’s because Cersei kills him while he kills her. And I think that’s unlikely.

      I agree with u, i don’t believe he will suicide but talking about show and only, there are some hints. The death in the arms of the woman he loves… will it happen or not? If not why they used this line? Also his last episode 10 scene is filmed and they don’t want to say anything because it’s a big spoiler…. that can mean a lot.

      Maybe i just got everything wrong… i am not a native english speaker..so sorry for some mistakes. 🙂

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    15. If Jaime is ever going to die, it won’t be this far out from the end of the series.

      Not saying I’m wanting him to but I’m expecting my first and second faves to die in the last season – hopefully the last episode.

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    16. Wimsey: But whatever the Winter story is, it will not be that again.

      I wouldn’t mind further growth of his character but I think life is going to get even harder for our handsome Lannister. Like Dany, Jaime will have his “to go west, one must go east” arc.

      In his book!Riverlands arc, after having a fair amount of “leadership” success, he is returning (willingly?) to face his original captor and vowmaker, almost exactly as he originally left RR (minus a hand). After LSH “gives him her regards” who knows what will happen? Can he actually escape with Brienne or by himself? Is he doomed as a BwB prisoner? Will Bronn/Payne follow & save him? Regardless, what WILL BE HIS REACTION when he sees the eerie unCat, besides unloading his bowels?

      However, in the show, he has more of an opportunity to prove himself without LSH present. I believe he will get kidnapped/captured and will be put in a reversed situation (from the bridge parlay) where the BF and BwB are in control. Will another appendage go missing? How will his “new perspective” handle the outlaws? Will Brienne defend him or be forced to fight him? I honestly don’t know how he will survive other than by escape/help from Bronn & Brienne (since no LSH). Will his “leadership growth” matter much in this situation? I don’t see his “growth” mattering at all; I see his family curse being his fate (dead children, crazy sister, valonqar, kinslayer/kingslayer, etc.).

      If he escapes this dire situation, I think Jaime is destined to head back to KL, to address another royal madness about to set fire to the city.

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    17. Wimsey: So, if they do this so that Jaime is now trying to rally together people who otherwise would have wanted him dead or something along those lines, then perhaps it will not derail the story.

      Oh Wimsey, thank goodness for your calm logic. I couldn’t the stomach the thought of seeing even a threat of such a thing. Yes, it’s war, terrible things have happened and will happen again, blah blahdeblah. Threatening to fling a baby into a wall would certainly put a damper on show-Jaime’s new-found fatherly feelings. Did that really happen in the books? Was a baby flung? Glad I stopped reading them

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    18. Jamie has a lot of unfinished business, Bran’s dream

      if jamie,brienne,Sansa,Hound and Robert Strong are together is one

      .
      Sansa is his last chance at redemption.
      or if

      Sansa dies and thoras resurrects her she is LSH

      .

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    19. Pigeon: I think I’ve already almost accepted that Jorah is toast.

      Pigeon, I can’t believe I’m reading that! You would think to give up on Jorah even for a second? Don’t you do it, even if it seems imminent. You’re one of his biggest fans. You’ll never forgive yourself.

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    20. Jaime has unfinished business with the Starks in general. Bran is the obvious one but there are connections in both show and books between Jaime and Arya too.
      In the books at least he gets maimed in the same way he thinks of maiming Arya.
      And they went out of their way in the show to advise Arya that her mother had released Jaime as a prisoner. They couldn’t do it in the same way as in the books but they still did it.

      And we even have him in a scene with Jon in the early days of the show.

      That’s before we even get to Jaime and Brienne and the things he still needs to work out with his own family.

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    21. HotPinkLipstick:
      Jaime won’t die until he sees Tyrion again. They have far too much unfinished business.

      Yes to this. The way Jaime and Tyrion parted in the show, strongly suggests to me that they will have to meet again to thrash certain things out. Too good of a symmetry opportunity to miss. 🙂

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    22. Thronetender,

      Yes, he made that threat, but it was a completely empty threat. He said what he thought he had to say to end the siege as peacefully as possible, thus keeping to his vow to never harm a Stark or Tully, again.

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    23. I’ve been on record saying I don’t like Jorah…that he crosses the line from creepy to stalker, imo, when it comes to Dany. As season 5 was airing, I was so caught upin watching things unfold, I actually felt a pang for him when I saw he’d contracted greyscale. Now that I’ve rewatched season 5, I’m back to really looking forward to his death. His two appearances in the fighting pits at the end of the season (and, yeah, I know he killed that Harpy, but I don’t care) reminded me of my feeling Dany should just feed him to R&V.

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    24. Fred: I think they will die at the same time. But Jaime will be killed but Lady Stoneheart. I think it’s the best way to finish his arc: “He starts as a bad man but then changes and redeems himself. In the end, however, the sins of his past come back and kill him. Thus settling the debt.” I think it fits thematically with the whole story. It also brings his story with Catelyn and Brienne full circle.

      I’ve never really thought that Jaime and Cersei would die together, despite the popular ‘come into/go out of the world together/Jaime as volonqar’ idea. That would be a little too neatly pieced together, in my mind. I also don’t except him to die by LSH. It would make more sense for him to go (if he does) closer to the end, as someone mentioned. Fingers crossed!

      Stark-wise, we’ve lost Ned, Cat, and Robb – the last 2 back in Season 3. The Lannisters and Baratheons have now lost as many family members (Stannis, Robert, Renly, Shireen, Selyse, Tywin, Joffrey, Myrcella). Book-wise, I do not expect Sansa to live, with the direwolves connection lost. Arya and Bran are the only two that I feel somewhat sure of (and being GoT, not that sure!). Rickon is a question mark, and Jon could go in so many different directions, ultimately. Show-wise I feel the same about Arya and Bran, however Sansa might make it further since she seems to be a favourite project of the creators.

      I think we’ve been invested in the Starks most from the beginning, so it seems as though their losses are great (which they are), but in reality other houses have lost as many main members if not more.

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    25. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      Thronetender,

      Yeah, I’m really starting think people are reading different books than I’m am! Yes, many of the book characters have added edge/grey, but that’s exactly what Jaime was doing in that scene.

      And he still is known as a “Lannister killer” and is using his “reputation” to give seeming weight to that threat

      I love Jaime’s chapters in “Feast”. So good.

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    26. Thronetender: Pigeon, I can’t believe I’m reading that!You would think to give up on Jorah even for a second?Don’t you do it, even if it seems imminent. You’re one of his biggest fans. You’ll never forgive yourself.

      Oh I’ll never not hope. I’m just doing as I did in Season 5 – trying to convince myself of the worst, while still clinging to that fragile thread. 😉 My bear.

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    27. I’d bet on Jaime surviving the story and ending up a successful hand of the king. It’s not the most likely thing, but it would make a solid character arc and I’d be happy; I meant “bet” in the true sense of laying a wager on long-ish odds and a gut feeling. And it would be Buster Bluth-levels of foreshadowing.

      As for Jorah, I suspect greyscale is actually prolonging his life. Taking over that part of a cut role means that the disease is significant enough to keep around and will likely physically get to where it is in the books…and that book!Jorah is about to be otherwise freed up…

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    28. Wimsey:
      I must admit, I am really worried about this stuff.All the criticism of Dorne and the Iron Islands masked the fact that the Crows Riverland stuff was pretty bad, too.Moreover, it’s round-about plot is to get Jaime to a point where he’s demonstrating that despite his boyish wishes to show that world that he is his father Mark II, he really is a man with a “soul.”But whatever the Winter story is, it will not be that again.

      The one thing that I am hoping is that they’ve found a way to redo this in what we can begin to see emerging of something involving the protagonists getting people who should be their adversaries to rally behind them.Daeny clearly is going to get the people who think that she should spend the rest of her life in widow’s prison to rally behind her.Jon clearly is going to get people who should think that he’s a traitor/deserter/bastard to rally behind him.Tyrion looks like he’ll be trying to coordinate Meereen.

      So, if they do this so that Jaime is now trying to rally together people who otherwise would have wanted him dead or something along those lines, then perhaps it will not derail the story.

      *fingers crossed*

      oooooooooh man I couldn’t disagree more with this and pretty much everything in your post. Yikes. Bad.

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    29. aabe:
      the Blackfish will win that test with flying colors.

      Oh, I don’t doubt the BF’s resolve.

      However, before Jaime arrives to calm things down, the Freys will use/abuse Edmure and their actions in the show may be a bit more extreme than their book counterparts. Hopefully, Jaime becomes the voice of reason with the idiot Freys, then parlays with the BF accordingly.

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    30. Matt,

      To me, although intriguing to ponder, that scenario would be stunning. I just can’t see a scenario where both sides trust each other. The Brienne factor is definitely key, although I do feel their “bond” will be severely tested by this situation.

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    31. I’ve always assumed that Jamie either dies this season, or somehow joins up with the bigger Ice/Fire story arc. Can’t decide if I think he’ll end up north with Brienne, or east with Dany and Tyrion. And not sure how either will happen. But don’t you think that at some point he has to stop playing the game of thrones, and start playing the real game?

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    32. Lisa0527,

      Dany and Tyrion will be coming west by season’s end, presumably, so Jaime doesn’t need to go east.

      Regardless, Jaime’s going to be the one who kills Cersei. When and why remain to be seen.

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    33. Sean C.,

      And the lil’ bro probably won’t live much longer than that, either….

      Lisa0527: But don’t you think that at some point he has to stop playing the game of thrones, and start playing the real game?

      The two will almost certainly dovetail. However, it would take some doing to convince Jaime (or anyone else) about what is happening up North. The White Walkers are a fairy tale: if they ever existed (and that’s a big “if”), then they died out long ago.

      Look for Jaime’s contribution to be more subtle: but also do not look to see him be a major (or even any) player in the end.

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    34. Jaime warns him that, if he’s forced to storm the castle, he’ll “send” Edmure’s baby son to him … “in a trebuchet.”

      Sounds like a blessing.. had he lived, he would have grown up to be part Frey.

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    35. Just a quick comment on Wimsey’s “the Winds”-story, approach to predicting and therefore feeling some anxiety towards S6. If I may.. The general story-consensus of what we’ve seen for season six seems to be: To go forward, you must go back (in some way or form). In this sense, we only have to take a quick look at our main characters and figure out what their “back” is and than we can speculate how that will further their story development towards the “Dream”-story.

      Dany: Vaes Dothrak. Embracing her inner power, instead of just the Mhysa-identity.
      Jon: Winterfell. To get an army to stop the WW, he must win the North. As a Stark?
      Tyrion: Tyrion must fall back on his experience in KL to make the most out of Meereen.
      Brienne and Jaime: Going back to the oaths they took, or simply each other..
      Samwell: Standing up against his father. And technically, the Reach is “back” for a Tarly.
      Arya: Accepting who she truly is will make her stronger, also: Westeros. Nymeria?
      Bran: The past… is where he’ll likely learn the most that he needs to spread going forward.
      Sansa: Rejoining her family after being “the hostage”. Probably with Rickon and Jon?
      Cersei: Casterly Rock? No seriously, I don’t have a clue. She’s metaphorically lost, so I don’t think she’ll be going forward much..
      Varys: King’s Landing/Dorne, to pave the way for Dany?
      Theon: The Iron Islands. We know he returns to the Iron Islands in S6.

      Honestly, a lot of these fit that “go back to go forward” quite a bit. I have to admit that I find that Cersei doesn’t match the theme at all, but she’s in her descent so she actually shouldn’t. However, I don’t seem to find any way to fit this “theme” onto Davos and like it or not, he is a principle character.. Also, Jaime/Brienne is a bit shaky in terms of how they’ll go forward after dealing with said oaths.. But as we have been promised, there’s more to their story than just the siege. Perhaps it’s simpler, perhaps their “back” is simply each other? Perhaps the simplests things are easiest to overlook?

      Matt:
      Hodor’s Bastard, I feel like there’s a good possibility Jaime, with Brienne’s help, will find a way to not be executed by LSH and will actually join the BwB. Not Brienne, just Jaime.

      Actually, this is quite interesting. There’s a song somewhere in the books, it goes as follows:

      “No man’s gold was from them, nor any maiden’s hand..
      Oh, the brothers of the kingswood, that fearsome outlaw band..”

      The reference to a man’s gold, a maiden and a brotherhood of outlaws in this snippet of a song, seems like it could be foreshadowing a connection. Moreso because this was sung in an Arya-chapter where she was with the BwB. Also, Jaime was fighting the Kingswood Brotherhood when he was 15, and a notable member was Wenda the White Fawn… who could just be inserted as an past-proxy for Brienne the Beauty?

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    36. Ser Oromis Locke,

      What an awesome summary! I agree with almost everything you said.

      Cersei: Casterly Rock? No seriously, I don’t have a clue. She’s metaphorically lost, so I don’t think she’ll be going forward much..

      I agree that if Cersei goes anywhere after (what is very much just speculation at this point) setting fire to King’s Landing, it’ll be Casterly Rock. However, it’s shaky like you said. Further evidence that Cersei’s arc is almost over and she doesn’t fit in with the rest of the characters you mentioned.

      Also, Jaime/Brienne is a bit shaky in terms of how they’ll go forward after dealing with said oaths.. But as we have been promised, there’s more to their story than just the siege. Perhaps it’s simpler, perhaps their “back” is simply each other? Perhaps the simplests things are easiest to overlook?

      Yup.

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    37. To piggyback on the Cersei-going-to-
      Casterly-Rock idea:

      combine that with the Jaime = volonqar theory, perhaps LSH commands Jaime to kill Cersei when he takes Edmure to Casterly Rock. Haven’t thought out the logistics too much, but maaaaaybe that’s a possibility.

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    38. Wimsey:
      Sean C.,

      The two will almost certainly dovetail.However, it would take some doing to convince Jaime (or anyone else) about what is happening up North.The White Walkers are a fairy tale: if they ever existed (and that’s a big “if”), then they died out long time ago.

      Well then, it’s a good thing he’s travelling with a man who’s been north of the Wall!
      Bronn is just the man to convince him.

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    39. Ser Oromis Locke,

      The key is that all of GRRM’s stories play on some “I am X/Not X” dilemma. I wonder if perhaps this will be the conflict between idealism and pragmatism/expediency. Jon, Daeny, etc., might be forced to compromise between their intense sense of honors and what needs to happen.

      To this end, perhaps they will rewrite the Riverrun stuff so that Jaime has to make similar decisions. Of course, they could stand it on its head: he could push for idealism for long-term gain over the Lannister-way for short term gain.

      This is all shot-in-the-dark: without reading the italicized sentences in the book or to watch the emphasized actions/statements, it is really hard to guess a story from snippets of plot!

      (But fun nevertheless….)

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    40. Lisa0527: Bronn is just the man to convince him.

      Bronn would not know anything about the Walkers just because he’s been north of the Wall. Remember, they’ve only recently resurfaced, and the Night’s Watch itself has only recently become aware of them. (Indeed, it seems that even they don’t take the threat too seriously, given that they still consider Wildlings a greater danger!)

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    41. Lisa0527:
      But don’t you think that at some point he has to stop playing the game of thrones, and start playing the real game?

      I don’t. I’ve long thought that the end of GOT will be three stories resolving at the same time: the Jaime-Cersei-Brienne love triangle; revenge for Ned (Arya’s and Sansa’s story) and the War for Dawn (Dany’s, Jon’s and Tyrion’s story). So, I actually don’t think that Jaime will ever intersect with the War for Dawn – I think that the essence of Jaime’s story is more personal.

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    42. Nodor:
      trebucheted-frey confirmed

      That made me laugh. Well damn everything about season 6 seems interesting! So excited for all of it.

      I’m going to say it… I still have hope for LSH. Would make an amazing cliffhanger for s06! Hey, I can dream lol…

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    43. Hodor’s Bastard: ’ll be damned…thx! Show-canon only?

      Probably: it never comes up in the books that I remember.

      Lisa0527: I think so. If he’s been north of the Wall fairly recently…and not with the Watch…then he probably was in contact with the Wildlings.

      Even if Bronn had heard anything while north of the Wall, then he probably would have dismissed it as local superstitions: grumpkins, snarks, giants mammoths, etc. And if Bronn told Jaime what he had heard, then Jaime would be even faster to dismiss it. The White Walkers are a fairy tale, after all: useful for scaring children into behaving, and that is about it!

      One thing that the show makes clear is that the southerners do not take the northerners very seriously: and they take the Wildlings even less seriously.

      Aryamad,
      It is much too late for that to be a cliffhanger! If said character was to appear, then it would have been this year. Last year would have have been too soon: the character is essentially absent from Crows/Dragons. But next year will be too late: they should be working towards grand finale urgently over the last 2 seasons.

      It was this year or never, and that means that last year would have been the time for any cliffhanger.

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    44. I agree that the last two seasons should, ideally, feel like a big build toward the big finish. Lots of memorable story beats, a couple more surprising twists and turns, another jaw-dropping battle… and then, in the eighth season, escalation incarnate and the biggest battle of them all. To me the greatest question is: who will be left to participate in it? I hope Jaime’s there, for example, but I’ve seen enough compelling points to the contrary to recognize the relative unlikelihood.

      Anyway, all this talk of what the seventh and eighth seasons will hopefully represent has me doubling back on my hopes that King’s Landing is largely disposed of by the end of the sixth. I don’t necessarily mean that literally, although I’d not be at all opposed to the literal, either. I’ve long been a fan of the “Mad Queen Cersei” theory that she’ll take her vengeance upon the world by doing what Aerys died wanting to do. I can’t decide if I’d want Jaime to be there and to kill her as he did Aerys, and if I want him to kick it right alongside her or carry on, and if I want him to successfully save a portion of the city or simply arrive far too late for even that. It could go so many ways, and I’ve always tried not to obsess over hypotheticals since it’s never, ever a guarantee, of course. But I really dig the idea… and it’d get the cameras out of King’s Landing for good and all so that we can focus on everything else as we build toward that finale.

      Anyway, if that were to happen, and if Jaime were there to try to stop her or what-have-you, then I dare say it wouldn’t happen until the seventh season, anyway. He seems like he’s going to be pretty busy being elsewhere in the back third or so of season six. I suppose he could have acquired Littlefinger’s jet pack and the surprise is that he’ll be back in King’s Landing in 6×10, but… that seems unlikely.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Why is it too late? I’ve never understood this argument at all. The show has shuffled storylines around before without much problem. I want to add that I’ve never been riding the LSH hype train, but we don’t need to see LSH resurrected but a similar approach to the books is possible. A few references to the BWB and a rumoured new leader before the actual reveal (if it happens) could work. We don’t actually know how long LSH had been with the BWB before she first appeared in the books, I really don’t see what the issue is here.

      <blockquote cite="comment

      Aryamad,
      It is much too late for that to be a cliffhanger!If said character was to appear, then it would have been this year.Last year would have have been too soon: the character is essentially absent from Crows/Dragons.But next year will be too late: they should be working towards grand finale urgently over the last 2 seasons.

      It was this year or never, and that means that last year would have been the time for any cliffhanger.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Does anyone know if they will be shooting any stuff around Belfast this weekend? My girlfriend will be there this weekend so maybe she could explore the area…

        Quote  Reply

    47. Hi guys,

      I’ve been on board with the Jaime as valonqar idea for a while now (unless GRRM is messing with us since prophecies aren’t to be trusted!). I like the idea that Jaime kills Cersei, causing his own death, but only for a good cause (not out of vengeance or LSH command or anything), to save others. Sort of a repeat Aerys situation.

      He definitely has unfinished business, as many have said, so now is too early for him to die.

      As for the trebuchet, a threat by Jaime, but one he would not actually fulfill, surely. Just leverage. Especially with Show Jaime feeling so fatherly recently.
      Jaime has a relatively calm head and is reasonable and practical in these kind of situations.

      One of Jaime’s main themes is conflicting oaths and impossible choices and I think Brienne is getting a taste of that now. If in TWoW they do meet LSH, I don’t think Jaime will die. But perhaps Brienne is put in a bad position since she will refuse to give up on her oaths, and also refuse to kill Jaime since she owes him her life (bear death would not have been good). One possibility is she lets him kills her in a duel to save him and her own honor simultaneously, but this would be pretty dramatic… I’m not a big LSH fan and I don’t expect to see her in the show, so maybe the show will get around this another way.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Aryamad,
      It is much too late for that to be a cliffhanger!If said character was to appear, then it would have been this year.Last year would have have been too soon: the character is essentially absent from Crows/Dragons.But next year will be too late: they should be working towards grand finale urgently over the last 2 seasons.

      It was this year or never, and that means that last year would have been the time for any cliffhanger.

      Not really. If they’re going to include LSH, it makes sense not to show her until after Jon is resurrected. They could still allude to her existence before that. “Outlaws hanging people in the Riverlands.”

      I don’t think her reveal should/could be a season-ending cliffhanger, however. She would need to appear before the end of 6×10, but there’s definitely still room for that character on this show. Anyone saying otherwise just doesn’t want her in the story for personal reasons.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Matt: Anyone saying otherwise just doesn’t want her in the story for personal reasons.

      I am indifferent as to whether she is in the show. Yet I think that it is now too late to include her simply because of the logistics of storytelling. And we cannot say that there is “room for her in the show”: we have no idea what contribution (if any) she makes to the Winter plot. I am increasingly coming to suspect that it will not be much.

      So, that pretty much falsifies your assertion!

      (As for mentioning hangings, that would be wholly inadequate. TV must show: spoken things, like Tysha, etc., don’t really happen unless/until people see it.)

      Jaime’s girl: I’ve been on board with the Jaime as valonqar idea for a while now (unless GRRM is messing with us since prophecies aren’t to be trusted!).

      It is not that prophecies cannot be trusted: it is that prophecies often turn out to be ironic. Having Jaime be the Valonqar would be very ironic, and thus a good way to execute a prophecy.

        Quote  Reply

    50. sati,

      This is not a morality tale. There’s no necessary retribution here; it doesn’t need to happen for the story to make sense. The fact that fans want the Starks to be avenged doesn’t mean the alternative is somehow illogical.

      That said… yes, there will be retribution. Why is LSH needed to achieve it? What do you think Jon and Sansa (characters we’ve been following for a while) will be doing this season? Why are they including the Northern Lords if not to do exactly that? The same goes for the Riverlands and the return of the Tullys.

      LSH is not necessary for any of it. I truly can’t get why some people are enamored with her; as of yet, her only character trait is “vengeance”, as she seems to be so different from her previous incarnation that there’s no character continuity. Unless Martin turns things around in TWOW, she’s the embodiment of a retribution plot point, a walking theme of the price you have to pay for coming back, and little else, as far as I can see. Thematically significant? Of course. Will she affect the plot? In all likelihood, significantly! However… is there anything else there? I don’t mean to appear sarcastic, but sometimes it feels as if those who love her have read TWOW. After all, she was introduced at the end of ASOS, and two big books later she’s been in about a page. So… that’s like two pages, all in all, right? I’m not being facetious when I say that I truly can’t understand how someone can become attached to this character, when she hasn’t shown any character yet.

        Quote  Reply

    51. “baby son”, I thought the child had not born yet so it also could be a girl?

      LSH just is an embodiment of vengeance so she could be anyone. It does not make if Blackfish would play the same role in the story.

        Quote  Reply

    52. sati: But having absolutely no retribution for RW, that doesn’t hurt “the logistics of storytelling”?

      If this were a story about retribution or things related to it, then it would. However, that does not seem to be the over-arching story of SoI&F. Moreover, and as Luka Nieto notes, why in the world would this prevent retribution? Retribution can be done many, many ways.

      At any rate, if it is to be part of the story, then it has to be done by one of the protagonists: and the-former-character-that-shall-not-be-named is not a protagonist (anymore).

        Quote  Reply

    53. I agree, Cersei will end up at Casterly Rock, probably after Tommen inevitably dies. I could see her being completely insane at that point, she’s already halfway there. Jaime or Tyrion then find her there as a broken thing and kill her not out of hate or revenge, but pity

        Quote  Reply

    54. Chinoiserie: “baby son”, I thought the child had not born yet so it also could be a girl?

      Much more time has elapsed on the show (save for the chronically stunted “little Sam”), so they might have skipped ahead to after the child was born.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Wimsey,

      Yeah, I’ll leave her “contribution” up to GRRM, thank you. I’m not in love with or attached to the LSH character, I just want to see that part, like all parts, of the books be included. They’re in the story for a reason.

      And another thing: Do you have any idea how many things on this show have only been talked about and not shown to us? Surely, you do. How do you stomach watching a show that doesn’t live up to your standards for visual storytelling?

        Quote  Reply

    56. The biggest evidence of

      LSH in S6 is the oft overlooked character description for Bower, who shoots or shot one day when the outlaw band does or did, is in one episode and is a “powerless servant numb to the horror he serves.” With Riverlands becoming prominent late in the season it could certainly point to an E10 reveal. Or maybe Bower serves a Frey.

        Quote  Reply

    57. Luka Nieto,

      She has a lot of fans and there is a reason for it – she is the extension of RW tragedy but she is also the response and vengeance for it. But if you don’t get it now, you never will and I am not interested in explaining this to you.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Luka Nieto,

      LSH has nothing to do with morality.She is just part of a story. A 2page part as you say and that is why her inclusion by the writer is so intriguing. IF she is included she will affekt drastically the fate of 3 main characters that we know that they are heading to RL this season. Why is this so necessarily bad for the story? I find it fascinating because her presence in the lives of these 3 will provide for complexity and drama. This is what is all about.IF LSH was just the only character in that region then we could discuss her one-dimensionality but we know that the RL have got a lot of attention and therefore her presence will have a more aristotelian effect to the drama than you advocate. Lets see what this can bring. IF of course she is included which I very much hope for.

        Quote  Reply

    59. I keep blaring my “STONEHEART drums” not to be obnoxious, but because I truly believe she’s coming.

      dothrakian raven:
      Luka Nieto,

      LSH has nothing to do with morality.She is just part of a story. A 2page part as you say and that is why her inclusion by the writer is so intriguing. IF she is included she will affekt drastically the fate of 3 main characters that we know that they are heading to RL this season. Why is this so necessarily bad for the story? I find it fascinating because her presence in the lives of these 3 will provide for complexity and drama. This is what is all about.IF LSH was just the only character in that region then we could discuss her one-dimensionality but we know that the RL have got a lot of attention and therefore her presence will have a more aristotelian effect to the drama than you advocate. Lets see what this can bring. IF of course she is included which I very much hope for.

      Exactly. And why would the show resist mixing

      Michelle Fairley

      with Nicolaj and Gwendoline? It’s full circle, emotionally speaking. The show loves “pairing the existing characters”, even inventing new pairings. And this one is actually from the book! But no, the the naysayers seem to have a position (a stupid one IMHO) that Benioff and Weiss so hate the concept, that they are gonna go against their modus operandi of pairing actors, and create a fill in substitute. And no, the Blackfish would not equal the emotional relevance of

      Catelyn Stark, Brienne, and Jaime

      .

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    60. Luka Nieto,

      ” I truly can’t get why some people are enamored with her; as of yet, her only character trait is “vengeance”, as she seems to be so different from her previous incarnation that there’s no character continuity. Unless Martin turns things around in TWOW, she’s the embodiment of a retribution plot point, a walking theme of the price you have to pay for coming back, and little else, as far as I can see. Thematically significant? Of course. Will she affect the plot? In all likelihood, significantly! However… is there anything else there? I don’t mean to appear sarcastic, but sometimes it feels as if those who love her have read TWOW. After all, she was introduced at the end of ASOS, and two big books later she’s been in about a page. So… that’s like two pages, all in all, right? I’m not being facetious when I say that I truly can’t understand how someone can become attached to this character, when she hasn’t shown any character yet.”

      I see the reason why now you would feel like another character avenging & paying retribution for being resurrected is overkill. I have a feeling we’re going to see a lot more of it than just LS. Maybe it feels that way now, but if it were, would GRRM have created the character? No.
      The way I feel about it is that there can be 1,000 people roaming the countryside avenging Stark murders & executions, rapes, on & on. But, if anyone is the ultimate avenging angel for House Stark AND House Tully, (mainly Stark), LSH is it. She’s the matriarch.
      In “The Rains of Castamere” before the RW, when Robb asks for her advice on taking Casterly Rock because he didn’t listen to her about Theon, etc, etc, Catelyn tells him, “Show them how it feels to lose what they love.” That feels like foreshadowing. Later in the RW, she swears by the Old Gods and the New, to Lord Frey that If he “lets it end here” there will be no vengeance. When he doesn’t let Robb go, it feels like she’s practically introduced. Ned’s death changed everything. Now this event changes everything again. She promises on her honor as a Stark and as a Tully to let his wife go if he lets Robb go. When Roose gives Robb the “Lannister’s regards”- the look on her face is the same look I’ve always imagined LSH having in my mind, dead in the eyes and with no purpose but killing.
      She’s a mother who watched her firstborn killed in front of her eyes, thinking her other boys dead at the hand of someone she took in, her daughters dead or in the hands of the Lannisters, which may be worse than death… She watched her grandson with her beheaded husband’s name, murdered in his mother’s womb. Maybe being a man it doesn’t seem as important for her to have her vengeance? I don’t know, makes me curious about how many of the LSH lovers are women. I don’t think gender should really matter, it’s just so important to this story that the wrongs done to this noble family (And Cat), are avenged! I want to do it! She’s one of the characters I’ve want to see the most (wanted to see Coldhands & others too but whatever).
      Whether she’s had a sentence written about her, or a chapter…she is the ultimate Stark vengeance, but she’s Cat too, she’s not, but she is her fury… The fact that so little has been told of her, yet so many of us want to see her is telling. Is this not the fairy tale of a good, honorable family being drawn into a Game they are too honorable to play & win?
      I re-watched the Red Wedding a few nights ago with my husband. I didn’t react to it at all the same way that I did the first time I saw it. The first time was still just as sad and shocking played out on screen. The second time after taking in all 5 seasons, re-reading some of the books & a little of TWOW, I was a sobbing mess of tears. My husband who is affected by nothing but football, LOTR, Star Wars, and now GOT, was much more affected by the second viewing just like I was. As I said, I see your point…but, maybe you should re-watch it too. I’d love to read your reaction to see if it affects you any differently now like it did me. Maybe we can bring you over to the LSH side…

        Quote  Reply

    61. Gah! So sick of being lectured by LSH haters. If Gurm thought she could play a pivotal part in Jaime and Brienne’s arcs, then D&D deserve a crack at including her as well.

      Pix or it never happened – I won’t get my hopes or expectations up for LSH in the show until then.

      OTOH, I don’t care what the haters think about the idea of her inclusion, even at this late-ish date. You all can bitch and whine about LSH ruining the show after she actually appears. Until then, shaddap and let the rest of us — especially those of us who don’t expect her but would be excited to see her — enjoy our hope and anticipation.

        Quote  Reply

    62. And never forget this…

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhDGkSqtOzE&feature=youtu.be&t=39m51s

      Now why did they wait so long?

      3 reasons….

      1)The wanted you feel the “Red Wedding” death/loss for a while. 2 seasons will do. 2) They only wanted to introduce the STONEHEART story thread in the season that would include “Winds” material, ie: the meat. 3) They wanted to keep resurrections in one season. This will be long remembered as the season of resurrections. The dragons have returned! White Walkers! Magic making a serious comeback in Westeros!

        Quote  Reply

    63. Dire Moon Moon,

      It is not late for her inclusion. In fact now it is timely for her to come to the limelight . In S4 would have made the perfect cliffhanger but as S5 had Jamie in Dorne & Brienne at WF LSH would have been redundant and would have created a plothole. But now a lot of main and well known secondary characters make her presence a necessity like a zombie Madonna. Moreover I believe that Brans and Jons arcs will be involved too as it has been foreshadowed in S3. I am more than sure that LSH if she is included will enhance the dynamics of the drama in multiple ways as Jamie, Brienne and Arya will meet in RLs and as Bran has a new role to play in the story.

        Quote  Reply

    64. Matt: I just want to see that part, like all parts, of the books be included. They’re in the story for a reason.

      Not everything in a book is relevant to a story. That is why editors make authors cut a lot of stuff. (Keep in mind that GRRM’s books basically are unedited.)

      At this point, I am increasingly skeptical that LSH will be relevant to the story. I think that she will be another pointless plot sojourn similar to the stuff in Dorne, the Iron Islands and the Riverlands.

      Dire Moon Moon: f Gurm thought she could play a pivotal part in Jaime and Brienne’s arcs, then D&D deserve a crack at including her as well.

      The issue is whether either Jaime’s or Brienne’s arcs are going to be pivotal to the over-arching story. Brienne’s certainly will not be: she did not become a lead character until Crows, and the show has kept her as a very minor lead. Jaime probably will not, for reasons foreshadowed in the book.

      And that means that some aspects of this arc simply might not be important at the zenith of the overarching tale.

      Ashara,
      Vengeance (or not) for the Red Wedding should come from Arya or (perhaps) Sansa. And it should be part of whatever identity crisis is that season’s story. Moreover, it should be an important step along the path that creates the woman that GRRM and B&W need to have when the lead characters unravel what the Higher Powers trodding on humanity really mean. To have it done by a non-protagonists would just make it gratuitous plot.

        Quote  Reply

    65. I think there are plenty, less zombie-like ways, to get Jaime and Brienne to the same emotional point as the end of Dance.

      LSH just doesn’t do it for me as a plot device. A vengeance filled zombie hanging children without any real plan or goal other than VENGEANCE.

      What I like so much about the Hardhomme episode is that it gave me belief that there is thought and plan behind whatever the fuck the Others are doing. The Night’s King could have gone after Jon and his merry boat of survivors, but he just walked to the end of the dock, stared and Jon and then rose a freaking army of undead. The Four Walkers of the Otherpocalypse looking down at the battle from on high. Hell, the Others are doing something; they have their reasons and their plans. I like that in a character.

      ZombieCat of VENGEANCE is just dull. There are better plot devices to use to get Jaime and Brienne where they need to be.

      As far as followup to the Red Wedding, I’m pretty convinced there will be a RW2, but it doesn’t matter, in the end. Dany is coming to town with Dragons. Winter is coming. Zombie vengeance of zombie-ness is just boring.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Jeff O’Connor,

      “I’ve long been a fan of the “Mad Queen Cersei” theory that she’ll take her vengeance upon the world by doing what Aerys died wanting to do. I can’t decide if I’d want Jaime to be there and to kill her as he did Aerys”

      I love the Mad Queen Cercei theory too. I think it would be a perfect arc to come full circle having Jamie kill her, be the valonquar. I see that being the only way he’s released from the evil part of himself, it’s her.
      You had me laughing my head off at the Littlefinger “jet-pack” reference. So true. How DOES he travel?

      Dire Moon Moon,

      “Gah! So sick of being lectured by LSH haters”

      Yes. In complete agreement!

      mitch,

      “The dragons have returned! White Walkers! Magic making a serious comeback in Westeros!”

      This is what we’ve been waiting for, the magic. Ive been saying it all along, thank you for writing it down again. This story is fantasy & that includes a ton of magical elements. I guess maybe for mainstream viewing purposes they’ve left so much of it out. But, I think that to tell the story correctly, most importantly to
      end it correctly, we’ve got to see the magic.

        Quote  Reply

    67. As someone who waited in real time for ADWD, it amuses me just how similar the entire arguments.

      I waited 6 years hoping that something will come out of the Dorne story, people hyping it, ”Doran will get Dany to Westeros!”, Dany will get to Westeros this book!,..etc.
      Only too get….Quentyn.

      Same with LSH, I have been waitng for her to do somethin for 15 years. All that ”hyping”/bulding up too, to what? 2 books of non-existance.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Jaime’s girl:
      Hi guys,

      I’ve been on board with the Jaime as valonqar idea for a while now (unless GRRM is messing with us since prophecies aren’t to be trusted!). I like the idea that Jaime kills Cersei, causing his own death, but only for a good cause (not out of vengeance or LSH command or anything), to save others. Sort of a repeat Aerys situation.

      Also sort of repeat Tyrion situation. If Jaime will strangle Cercei as the valonqar of the prophecy it mirrors Tyrion strangling Shae with the chain. Jaime has a golden hand and the chain Tyrion used had a symbol of a hand and it was made from gold.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Wimsey: Not everything in a book is relevant to a story.That is why editors make authors cut a lot of stuff.(Keep in mind that GRRM’s books basically are unedited.)

      At this point, I am increasingly skeptical that LSH will be relevant to the story.I think that she will be another pointless plot sojourn similar to the stuff in Dorne, the Iron Islands and the Riverlands.

      You’re full of shit, man. I hate getting so worked up about this topic, but I’m sick of people who think they know what this story needs better than the guy that wrote (and is still writing) the story. If the Battle of Ice vs. Fire or White Walkers vs. Dragons are whatever the hell you wish to call it is the only thing you’re concerned about, what are you even doing here? Just shut up and wait for season 8 in a few years. I’m insulted by some of the points you’re trying to make.

      “By the way, GRRM’s editors don’t really edit his books… He’s just getting away with writing whatever he wants so don’t take the entire story too seriously…” That’s basically what you’re saying. Get out of my face with that shite.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Dire Moon Moon,

      I’m not particularly a fan of

      Stoneheart

      , but I don’t want to take the fun away from those who are excited for her appearance. However, I can’t stand for when her fans start seeing “hints” and “clues” everywhere within the show, and then accuse D&D of “trolling” their fans when it turns out they’re mistaken.

        Quote  Reply

    71. HotPinkLipstick,

      Great argument! The reason why LSH is boring is because vengeance is boring! Revelation! In principle every character is boring if we replace the word vengeance with what feature each character stands for.

        Quote  Reply

    72. I hope to see LSH in S6 but if she doesn’t appear it will not lessen my enjoyment of the show. If she is in, I hope there are absolutely no sightings of Michelle Fairley, no spoilery pics or news, just 100% surprise when the hooded character turns to the camera and it’s her! That would be brilliant! One thing for certain is that I would not like to see her arc given to another character. Not BF, not Sansa (although I am concerned since they hooded her so often last season).

        Quote  Reply

    73. dothrakian raven:
      HotPinkLipstick,

      Great argument! The reason why LSH is boring is because vengeance is boring! Revelation! In principle every character is boring if we replace the word vengeance with what feature each character stands for.

      *yawn* Vengeance without plan is boring. Killing people because of their name with no ultimate goal other than VENGEANCE is boring. So, ZombieCat kills every Frey that ever was and all Lannisters and then…what? Does she go full Kaiser Soze and kill everyone who ever spoke to a Frey? Everyone who ever sold a good to a Lannister? What is she? Where does she go?

      Take Arya on vengeance. She’s a child with some warped ideal that if she can just get vengeance on the people who destroyed her family, things will get better. Hell, she even asked if Ned could be resurrected. She wants her family back and in her little girl way, sees vengeance as the way to make that happen.

      Take the Others. They have some weird plan other than “Kill everyone. It’s fun.” Hardhomme showed us that.

      ZombieCat is nothing. There is no “after” for her. There is no nuance. No depth. No ultimate goal. No end in sight other than vengeance. I can’t care about her, either living or dying again because there is nothing there in the character.

      But of course, if you want to miss that whole part of my argument, go ahead and do that. Have at.

        Quote  Reply

    74. sati,

      No, it wasn’t. The High Sparrow explained that Mother’s Mercy referred to the mercy of their goddess. Was Lady Stoneheart ever referred to as Mother’s Mercy in the books?

        Quote  Reply

    75. Wimsey,

      Brienne’s certainly will not be: she did not become a lead character until Crows, and the show has kept her as a very minor lead.

      Except you’re kind of conveniently ignoring she has a Valyrian steel sword, which the show highlighted as important to the endgame last season.

        Quote  Reply

    76. I know from those pages that she is nothing. No more important than an innkeeper or a random squire who has the same about of book space. LSH isn’t the story. She’s a plot device and a dull one. She is there to move Jaime and Brienne (and her Valryan steel sword) into a certain place on the board as we work towards endgame.

        Quote  Reply

    77. sati,

      That’s not an argument and you’re only reinforcing my point. People see LSH “clues” everywhere, and then blame the showrunners because they got their hopes up too high.

        Quote  Reply

    78. HotPinkLipstick,

      So she is not nothing then. She has a function in the published material and most probably a function in the unpublished one. She is not a random inkeeper but the broken extension of a main protagonist who in all probability will have a role to play for at least 3 main arcs.

        Quote  Reply

    79. Young Dragon,

      You ask me if she was referred to as one in the BOOKS. I provide you with info that yes she was. Then you write some stuff about canon. So I think you have a bit trouble interpreting things here, but that’s your issue, believe what you want.

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    80. Wimsey,

      I really enjoy reading your comments… they are deep and smart. Fortunately, you use to be wrong. You were sure that the Riverrun siege would be cut and that the Griffs will make the cut. I don’t know if my beloved

      unCat

      will show up next season but I hope she will. There’s indirect evidence (not too strong, I know) that she could be in.

      I see you in a denial… as you were before S5 aired in respect to Sansa in Winterfell… you were saying that no evidence did exist as if it was a scientific reaserch.

      You say that Arya or Sansa could make the vengaence… the point you and Luka and a lot of people are not understanding is that she is the

      mother who saw her first son be killed.

      Arya, Sansa, Bran, Rickon, Jon all of them could avenge Robb and Ned… but the love of

      Catelyn, the mother

      is much more strong. Neither the viewers nor the readers have seen a deep scene between Sansa-Robb, Arya-Robb, Bran-Robb, Ned-Robb… not even a real affection scene between Ned and Sansa… always was

      Catelyn

      That’s why we all want that to happen… even if she has been only in two pages… her grudge survives… she is the great veangance… it is the background.

      In the show…

      Michelle Fairley helped to enhance the character… and that scene of Talisa and Catelyn talking about Jon… the scene when she promises Robb to avenge Ned… that scene in S3 with Robb talking about attack Casterly Rock and show the Lannisters how does it feel lose their owns… and I think that Brienne clearly forshadowed Cat last season as Sati said

      .

      Again I enjoy your comments and discussion… but I think you use to be unbiased in some topics… mainly Feast topics.

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    81. sati,

      Maybe you consider the appendix to be the books, but I don’t. I mean, do you honestly believe D&D have nothing better to do than to play tricks on their fans? Comments like yours come off as petty.

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    82. Matt: I hate getting so worked up about this topic, but I’m sick of people who think they know what this story needs better than the guy that wrote (and is still writing) the story.

      Authors are notorious for feeling that everything they write is “really important.” That is why editors are so vital. Otherwise, most books would be half again as long as they are (and twice as long as they would need to be!)

      kit_hepburn: Except you’re kind of conveniently ignoring she has a Valyrian steel sword, which the show highlighted as important to the endgame last season.

      The endgame is not going to be about killing White Walkers, but understanding what happened that caused them to come back, and understanding what happened in the past that made them cease their attempt to zombify the world. The Azor Ahai story is cute: but you can bet your canines that it is (at best) a very ironic description of what really happened.

      And (*gets out drum sticks*), there is still that other big piece of the puzzle to fit into this (*tap tap, titter-tap, titter-tap, rim-shot*): R’hllor. Don’t be surprised if that turns out to be even worse than the Walkers: and Valyrian steel won’t do much against it. (*goes full Keith Moon*).

      *kicks over drums set*

      I have little inkling of Brienne’s future, but she was introduced much to late to be a major contributor to the overarching tale. I have a major inkling about Jaime’s future, and I really doubt he’ll be there when Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc., start playing god roulette.

      Young Dragon,

      This is hardly unique to this fandom. All fandoms believe that show/movie makers/authors are “trolling” them all the time. However, most of the time they are not thinking about the hardcore fans: they are trying to get their projects done!

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    83. StandOzone: but I think you use to be unbiased in some topics… mainly Feast topics.

      I obviously am not unbiased: I make no secret of the fact that I think that the Feast material is atrocious. It made me an ex-fan for many years. But there is a key here: it is not just that I dislike the material (and make no mistake: I certainly do dislike it), but I think that material is abysmal based on the objective criteria I use to judge any book. I would never have become a fan of the series if the first three books had been of that same caliber. To this end, I think that the TV show is and would be best served cutting as much of it as they can.

      Now, in a big way, they have. They have cut Brienne’s tedious trek through the Riverlands. They have cut Arriane and all the 3rd party PoV associated with her. They did not try to make Asha into a protagonist, and it seems that any 3rd party PoV associated with her in the book that is being reatined is getting moved into the setup for whatever Euron does in Winter. They streamlined Cersei’s narrative substantially. They fleshed out Arya’s narrative and actually gave Sansa one. So, most of my basic objections were addressed. (And, of course, the big three had their Dragons material at the same time.)

      While I am disappointed that they are doing the Riverrun siege stuff, I am hoping that they have thought of a way to make it serve the Winter story. B&W have slavishly adhered to the stories, which means that precedence says they are doing that again. Given the commonalities we can see emerging between what Jon, Daeny and Tyrion are doing, I can think of a few ways they can rework that plot to serve some sort of “political expediency vs. philosophical idealism” story. If they do that with the Riverlands, then I will tip my cap to them! However, I simply did not consider the idea that the plot could be modified to serve a different story: often times, they cannot.

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    84. sati,

      Book canon is the accepted material within the story being told. I never claimed to have coined the term, that’s just what it is. LSH was never referred to as Mother Mercy in the story, so Mother Mercy is not canon. As Wimsey said, D&D are here to do a job and adapt GRRM’s works as best as they can. That’s it. I just feel you’re jumping to conclusions about their intentions without the sufficient evidence to support your claim.

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    85. Wimsey: it’s round-about plot is to get Jaime to a point where he’s demonstrating that despite his boyish wishes to show that world that he is his father Mark II, he really is a man with a “soul.”

      Well, when the S5 ended, Jamie was standing over the corpse of his own daughter. That tends to make a person kinda angry, even one who’s discovered his nicer, more soulful side. Maybe that’s he act that pushes him further into realizing his Tywin/Cersei side, and not his Tyrion side. I always perceived him as someone straddling the line, anyway. After all, this is a guy who jammed a knife into a guy’s eye.

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    86. The righteous vengeance shown by

      LSH really was diminished for me by the fact that not only does she string up people unrelated to the RW, but that she murdered an innocent child-bride before she died, knowing it made no difference to them anyway.

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    87. sati,

      This. All those little bread crumbs ppl want to conveniently ignore. What’s hysterical is that the ones who deny those hints are the same ppl who think the Frey’s should already have Riverrun on the show solely based on Brienne’s single line of dialogue where she’s basically thinking out loud and assuming the Freys already have the castle. So you know, whatever is convenient for their arguments.

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    88. Who was the child bride LSH that murdered? Are you referring to Walder Freys wife on the show? That was Cat, not LSH.

      LSH has never been described as a tool of vengeance for the RW anywhere other than in fan threads like this so that’s just a matter of opinion really and not fact.

      She’s also targeting anyone who has done her wrong: Freys Lannisters (I bet Boltons too), and their supporters, hence why Brienne and Pod faced the noose.

      So that all kinda makes sense to me.

      And BTW to those who use the term zombieCat- LSH is NOT a zombie. Just to clear up that other myth.

      Pigeon:
      The righteous vengeance shown by

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    89. Love the LSH debate. One either respects her addition or hates it.

      Personally, I think Beric’s intentions were sound when Nymeria dragged Cat’s body out of the river and Thoros/Beric recognized it, but the combination of 3 days dead, Beric’s weak life spirit after 7 resurrections and Thoros’ anxiety regarding the procedure completely corrupted Cat’s revival process. Cat should have stayed dead, but LSH is a fascinating figure of darkness and rage, forced back into a nightmare existence with probably nothing but horrific images of the RW swimming through its rotting brain. [I dream of a hellish PoV!]

      However, for me, Beric’s decision to sacrifice himself for Cat will ultimately prove to be the BwB’s undoing. She is no leader and her tenure with the BwB has corrupted their original intent and doomed their mission to destabilize the Lannister, Frey and Clegane forces. She is revenge incarnate. She represents the corruption of the Red God’s power, almost a cautionary tale. But before she is finally terminated, will her existence effect the pathway of Brienne, Jaime, Sansa or Arya through this tale? I hope so.

      Regarding the show though, I must admit that I hope LSH stays on the page. It will stun me if they choose to reveal her at this late stage. I respect those who have stayed strong since the end of S3, when she should have been revealed before the credits as a contrast to “Robbwind.” In any case, the comment made by James Rivers upthread has me thinking though. Could Bower be a member of the BwB who is “numb to the horror he serves” and that horror is actually a version of Beric & Thoros gone bad? Could Beric/Thoros in the show be the cautionary tale of the Red God’s power gone awry? It could play as a wary factor when considering Jon 2.0. Plausible?

      And to Wimsey….#AFFC_rocks! 🙂

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    90. Jon will find a dying Lady Stoneheart when he travels south to destroy what remains of the Freys. She’ll at first mistake him for Ned, then be horrified that it is his bastard instead that has come to haunt her last moments. Jon will reveal that his uncle, Lord Eddard, was always true. And, Catelyn will be able to die in peace.

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    91. Wimsey,

      There is no objection to your reasoning about how things will unravel in the remaining books and seasons but that does not mean that there is no room for narrative twists and explorations. What the mystery of WW consists of will not take a whole season to reveal, Rhllor’s puzzle will not need another one to be clarified. The fact that WW appear in one, maximum three episodes per season is indicative. They make no secret of what they want, the key is the why. From a narrative point of view this can be just an episode scene. The same is with Rhllor considering that there will be extra Red Priestesses in the coming seasons. So all this does not necessarily make LSH’s presence redundant. As I said before the possibility of her inclusion in this coming season coincides with the arrival of Jaimie, Brienne and Arya at RLs where already Black Fish, Edmure, Freys, Nymeria and the BWB have taken place. Her presence is a potential influence to the development all of these characters but mostly Aryas. Because if she is the number 4 most important character something has to happen to challenge her (self) destructive nihilism and I see LSH as an intriguing potential. Nobody says that Brienne is a main main character but her presence is built a lot on principles and oaths something that we have seen to be slowly deconstructed in the last season and maybe LSH presence in combination with Jaimies presence will drastically change the honorable and chivalrous Brienne. In my way of understanding the logic of the showrunners things like these is what gives the drama quality that GoT has acquired all the way. Catelyn’s character has enormously contributed to this fact and cannot be ignored as long as there are hints and clues about a twisted version of her. But as I have already said all this is just a good potential. D&D might find other more splendid dramatic ways in order to enhance the storylines and the imminent involvement of the three main characters that will be at RLs in S6. It seems though that LSH is a gun that can trigger exciting events without making any discount to the main story’s consistency and therefore I think it is hard to ignore her. In any case I will not be devastatingly frustrated if in the end LSH will not make it in the series…

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    92. All the Jaime talk in the comment section remembered me of a part of a poem in my language.I’m not gonna translate the lyrics as they are because it wouldn’t rhyme in english but the part says something like this: Even if we descend from the gods we still have to pay with a death,it’s the same to die young or as an old man but not the same to die a LION or a chained dog.
      Jaime f*cking Lannister,awesome character.I expect him to do something really big before his time comes.That’s how I would do it anyway,he’s known as the Kingslayer and people mock him so near the end I would make Jaime as one of the saviours.No glory or anything,just redemption.

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    93. Hodor’s Bastard:
      Love the LSH debate. One either respects her addition or hates it.

      Uh, no. I’m pretty tepid on LSH myself – I’d be OK with her, even if I prefer Arya and Sansa to be the avengers; my major concern is that Martin wrote her in like so many other things into these books: because he felt it was cool, and now doesn’t know how to develop her; so if the show found an appropriate continuation/ending, cool…

      I’m, however, extremely irritated by sati and her proselytising. There have been no reports whatsoever that LSH is in S6, and yet here she came and started to trash another thread.

      So, while I’m tepid on LSH as such, at the same time I hope that she isn’t in, because I’m looking forward to sati’s meltdown. 😀 kind of funny how through her arrogance she achieves exactly the opposite effect to that she should be gearing for, but, ohwell.

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    94. Hodor’s Bastard:

      And to Wimsey….#AFFC_rocks!

      Certainly. And gets better on repeat readings especially when paired with “Dragons” (Boiled Leather).

      But I am old school, and remember the feeling of despondence when we waited 5 years for the follow-up to the unbelievably climactic and eventful “A Storm Of Swords”. Half a book (not even!) Damn, 11 years without Dany, Tyrion, Jon. It can tax one’s objectivity and perceptions 😉

      But I got over it! Especially when “Dance” came out. Of course, it would have been even more satisfying without those last 200 manuscript pages being cut out for “Winds”.

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    95. hodor: Also sort of repeat Tyrion situation. If Jaime will strangle Cercei as the valonqar of the prophecy it mirrors Tyrion strangling Shae with the chain. Jaime has a golden hand and the chain Tyrion used had a symbol of a hand and it was made from gold.

      Oooh I like that 🙂

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    96. I see everyone talking LSH again, if and that’s a big if she rises, Ms Fairley will bring a multi-dimensional layered role for the part, not fan’s fictional one dimension character they have created in their minds.

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    97. Pigeon: I’ve never really thought that Jaime and Cersei would die together, despite the popular ‘come into/go out of the world together/Jaime as volonqar’ idea. That would be a little too neatly pieced together, in my mind. I also don’t except him to die by LSH. It would make more sense for him to go (if he does) closer to the end, as someone mentioned.

      The ‘going out of the world together’ thing seems to me to be mostly just Cersei’s fantasy. Perhaps after Tommen dies, she will propose a romantic suicide pact to Jaime and then go into her final fit of mad pyromaniac rage when he unexpectedly declines her ‘Don’t Fear the Reaper’ pitch. She is the sort of narcissistic personality who just can’t handle it when the script that plays out is not the one that she has written.

      D & D cut out the Valonqar part of Maggy the Frog’s prophecy, so they haven’t bound themselves to fulfilling it when Cersei’s curtain time comes. It might be more satisfying, ultimately, if she meets her end at the hand of some of the grubby smallfolk whom she looked down her nose at all her life.

      As for Jaime, the ‘I want to die in the arms of the woman I love’ line makes me suspect that we are being set up for an ‘Evangeline’-type ending, in which he and Brienne are long separated again, until she finds him about to expire in the aftermath of some climactic battle and they get to have a few poignant last words.

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