Nikolaj Coster-Waldau on Brienne, the Ice Block Debacle & Cersei in GoT Season 7

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Game of Thrones actors must be used to being asked about the show whether that’s what they’re promoting or not. Or at least I hope so, because it invariably happens. Recently the film press got ahold of Kit Harington and asked in equal parts about his new film Brimstone and Jon Snow’s future — and today it’s Nikolaj Coster-Waldau‘s turn.

The Daily Beast caught up with Coster-Waldau during SXSW, where the Netflix film Small Crimes in which he stars as a disgraced ex-cop premiered to pretty good reviews. As well as discussing the crime thriller, the actor opened up on Jaime’s death stare at Cersei in The Winds of Winter, Jaime’s relationship with Brienne and, of course, the infamous block of ice gimmick with which the season premiere date was announced. There is also a great —though unintentional— tease of a key season seven plot point!

Regarding the controversial viral campaign of the ice block melting to announce the premiere date with supposed audience participation, Nikolaj appeared to be as bewildered as the rest of us, and he wasn’t the only one — the showrunners were too:

“I spoke to Dan [Weiss] and David [Benioff] about that and they were like, ‘Oh god… That’s embarrassing.’ Everyone was like, ‘What’s going to happen?’ ‘What’s going to happen?!’ ‘It’s melting!’ ‘It crashed!’ ‘Oh my god!’ It’s like, just walk away… It’s just a date!”

As for what the future may hold, Coster-Waldau did little more than grin at the theory that Jaime would kill Cersei, but he was more open about other issues, such as the relationship between his character and Gwendoline Christie’s, Brienne: “It’s built out of contempt, which has turned into real respect, and love—not that they would ever use that word. I think they feel very strongly for each other. I have no idea if they would ever be able to act on it, and I don’t think they would. It’s all been about Cersei his whole life.”

Brienne and Jaime in 6x08

The other blonde woman with which Jaime has a tricky relationship is, naturally (or not so much), his own sister Cersei. Last season didn’t end in a good place for the couple, however: After Cersei blew up the Great Sept and indirectly caused Tommen’s suicide, Jaime returned only to see Cersei being crowned, and he didn’t seem too happy:

“Jaime’s addicted to something—almost institutionalized by a situation to where there is no other way. For Jaime, there is no other way. He’s been groomed since he was 15 that, whatever his life is, it starts and ends with Cersei. He has to accommodate her. He’s done that his whole life, and he’s reached a moment now where he suddenly has to address it. What’s interesting about that is people will read into it and there was no line—it’s just a look.”

Crucially, while discussing Jaime’s loyalty to Cersei, Coster-Waldau almost slipped up and spoiled a season seven plot point, teasing a possible new suitor for Queen Cersei:

“Plus, there are no other suitors. Well, that’s not true… but he has to step up and take his father’s place. Wow, I was about to reveal something from Season 7 and thought, ‘What am I doing?'” What are you doing, indeed. Whatever it is, keep at it!

174 responses

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    1. I’m guessing Euron will be extending his hand to Cersei this year. The Sand Snakes and Ellaria might make for a wedding gift.

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    2. “It’s just a date”…lol. Yeah, the premeire date for Season 7! It’ll be more than a year between the Season 6 finale and the Season 7 premeire so we’re anxious!

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    3. Well, it’s good to know that Jaime Lannister won’t actually be in season 7. I feel like D&D don’t get enough credit for their groundbreaking twist to have Jaime replaced by the heretofor unknown Larry Lannister sometime early in season 4. It’s really shocking of them.

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    4. I’m ready to ship Cersei and Euron. It’s going to be such a hot mess. Ceuron? Sounds like Sauron. Perfect!

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    5. Hi All 🙂 Great site !!!! I started reading posts last year during season 6 and have been hooked since. Regards to Sue, Oz, Marko, Luka, Petra and others for their insights and passion for everything GOT.
      On another note it came to mind in a moment of panic that what if GRRM does a Robert Jordan and fcuking dies before he finnishes the books. I nearly requested euthanasia when I found out Jordan Died. After years of waiting for book after book and the publishers clearly stretching it out and out
      So note to George “ Dont fcuking die on us and finnish the books “ Please

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    6. Euronymous Greyjoy,

      It might be possible if they give the masses enough bread and circuses. The smallfolk aren’t checking for the Sand Sneks anyway.

      What I’d also like is for Cersei to become the unlikely hero of the war for the dawn by burning all the wights with wildfire. For the lols. I might actually die laughing if D&D pull the rug from under everyone and portray her as a competent ruler.

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    7. Flayed Potatoes: Time to put all hopes on Joe Abercrombie I say.

      Oh dang, that reminds me… I bought The Blade Itself years ago and it’s still in my “books to read pile.” I should get on that.

      Euron and Cersei are equally despicable. It’s hard to believe that any sort of partnership between the two would remain true for long before one stabs the other in the back (literally or figuratively).

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    8. Flayed Potatoes,

      Ceuron! Yaaaaaaaaaaasssss! I don’t really ship GoT characters as I’m more concerned with their survival, but this might be something I could get behind for the outright awfulness. It would be painful and gross, which would make it that much sweeter when they inevitably destroy each other.

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    9. Sure he was about to reveal something. “See this duck?” 😉

      Oh Jaime, you beautiful fool. I may strangle you myself for your frustrating loyalty to someone who doesn’t deserve it nor return it. ‘Starts and ends’ with her, indeed.

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    10. Chreechree,

      Same here. I can’t be bothered with shipping (like you, I want my favorite characters to live and get good storylines), but this trainwreck is the exception. It’s so bad it’s great! Long (heh) live Ceuron!

      And Jaime belongs to Brienne anyway. There’s ample time for Cersei to find some lovin’ in between all the crazy stuff she’ll be up to next season.

      Clob,

      Their awfulness is what makes them amazing! Now hop on board this ship!

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    11. I can’t say that I have ever seen a theory proposing Euron as the valonqar, but hmmm….

      He is a younger brother. He does tend to murder women he sleeps with. If he IS a suitor for Cersei, he could well also be her murderer.

      Jaime would then kill him.

      Probably not the most likely scenario but now curious to find any hints in text that migt support it.

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    12. Vintila Corbul,

      The salt is so real. Jaime’s storyline is unrecognizable at this point and based on NCW’s comments it’s not even internally consistent anymore. Jaime is like Bugs Bunny in that Looney Tunes episode where Bugs and Elmer Fudd’s personalities change depending on whatever hat blows on to their head.

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    13. MoF,

      I disagree and i feel the only reason that you are upset is the fact that like many other things in this fandom, if it doesn’t fit your headcanon of what that character is, then it sucks . It happened with Dany,with Sansa,Stannis and even Jon to some extent .

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    14. MoF,

      Well the show isn’t written by GRRM,thankfully otherwise we would be looking at the end of the show sometimes in 2030 .

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    15. Hello, handsome Nikolaj!
      If I had known that speaking about Jaime and Brienne will bring an interview with Nikolaj, I would have done it sooner. Whom am I tricking… I’m always speaking about them 😉

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    16. awol,

      Well, I don’t know of textual evidence to support Euron as the valonqar, but there might be a hint about Euron and Cersei from a WoW sample chapter:

      This is from Aeron’s chapter “The Foresaken” when Euron forces Aeron to drink shade of the evening the second time: “The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…”

      Is his mate a wildfire loving Cersei? That’s my best guess. Of course, that doesn’t mean we’ll see this vision come to pass.

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    17. MoF,

      In the books, Jaime turns his back on Cercei because she cheated on him. Despite all of the shit she’s pulled, that was the breaking point. When he finally leaves Cersei in the show, I’m betting it will be for a much better reason.

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    18. Ceuron? More like Eursei..

      And also can whoever is managing the wotw-twitter just ignore a certain twitter-account instead of steeping to an obnoxious, sexist level themselves, or if they truly want to, use their private account? Honestly “wikipedia is mostly written by men who refuse to consider that their perspective is sexist”? “Is” and not “can be”? Where’s the factcheck on that? And then one wonders how the commentsection can get so toxic at times.

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    19. Rhoynish Prince,

      As in he’ll be Lord of Casterly Rock and commander of the Lannister armies, which is what he’s been preparing for since he got dismissed from the KG last season. I doubt Tyrion will come shoot him while he’s taking a dump. 😛

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    20. Pigeon:
      Sure he was about to reveal something. “See this duck?” 😉

      That was so mean! I’m expecting him to appear with a wolf: “See this she-wolf?”

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    21. Flayed Potatoes,
      🙂
      I can imagine the writing team with worn out copies of The Forsaken chapter in hand trying to merge her character with Falia Flowers’.
      Damn, would she look good tied naked to the prow of The Silence
      But she would probably powerplay her way out of this one too.

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    22. Personally, I’m most looking forward to the 3-way relationship between Sandor Clegane, Old Nan, and Craster

      I’ll see myself out…

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    23. Dany + Cersei

      They both think they are the gods’ gift to Westeros without any justification.
      They both have no problem trapping their enemies in buildings and burning them alive.
      Dany would have no problem with Cersei screwing Jaime on the side.

      They are made for each other. Just need to get Tyrion and Olenna and everybody else in the world who knows Cersei out of the way first.

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    24. Onions are appealing
      Cersei’s lost all feeling
      Jaime’s look could fry
      Onion Knight don’t cry

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    25. Leuf:
      Dany + Cersei

      They both think they are the gods’ gift to Westeros without any justification.

      I never got that impression from Cersei. Pretty sure she knows she’s evil and won’t be good for the people of Westeros. She doesn’t want power to right historical wrongs or empower the smallfolk. She wants power because having power is better than not having power.

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    26. Adam,

      Not quite that. I think Cersey wants power for a reason. And that reason is VENGEANCE. She wants to avenge the world for her screwd life and her lost children. Most of that is her fault, but she will always put the blame on the others. And she will burn the cities to the ground… or freeze them. One way or another she will end on the side of the WW.

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    27. Inga,

      It’s established Canon that Cersei always craved power even as a child.
      Leuf,

      Daenerys is God’s gift to Westeros. It’s not a coincidence that she’s arriving just in time for winter and while another not so logical/sane person is on the throne.

      I don’t know what they’re doing with Jamie this season but I’m hoping he catches up with his book counterpart.

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    28. Abbie: Daenerys is God’s gift to Westeros.

      Hmmm…. the only gods in this world that seems to be real are a bunch of Cloud Storage Trees, Ice Nazguls and a Psychopathic Fire Demon. I think that they’d do better with gifts from non-deities.

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    29. Adam: Pretty sure she knows she’s evil and won’t be good for the people of Westeros.

      Cersei does not know that she is evil. She simply thinks that it is “right” that other people serve her. In her mind, people who do not acknowledge this are, to put it mildly, misguided.

      At this point, she also is more than a little unhinged. Cersei did genuinely care for her children, and they are all dead. It is entirely possible that her maternal obsessions compounded with grief will lead her mind to really weird places. At this point, we really cannot expect any logical behavior from her: she is going to operate under “Lannisters First” but what she is going to see as “Lannisters First” might get a bit odd.

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    30. The Sybian,

      Yeah well, since we’ve had sexual encounters on the show without regard to gender race, relationship or age, I don’t see how a little bit of Oedipus would be out of line..

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    31. I guess evil is a matter of definition. To me, when you close a season torturing a nun while telling her you blew up all her friends because it felt good to watch them burn, that seems pretty self-aware, like she knows damn well she’s a cartoon supervillain but what the hell else is she going to be? Robert’s wife, Tywin’s daughter, and Tommen’s mother didn’t exactly work out, so she may as well be her own person now.

      Evil people can still legitimately love others. I hear Hitler was a renowned dog lover, for instance.

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    32. This isn’t related to this post, sorry, but I want to know. Will GoT be able to be nominated for an emmy for season 8? I know there is a cut off, hence season 7 not being counted, but I’m still confused with the dates….. sorry, I am so slow

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    33. Eilidh,

      It’s going to skip this year’s Emmys since they have a dumb rule imo of only nominating shows that air until a certain period,i think the latest is may or june(not sure),breaking bad had the same issue when they split their season,so yeah basically season 7 of GOT cannot be nominated until the next year’s Emmys which is dumb as fuck since the show still airs in the year 2017 but whatever i think whoever made these rules were either drunk or simply stupid . As for season 8 it’s probably going to be the same thing since they are going air later as well

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    34. Eilidh:
      This isn’t related to this post, sorry, but I want to know. Will GoT be able to be nominated for an emmy for season 8? I know there is a cut off, hence season 7 not being counted, but I’m still confused with the dates….. sorry, I am so slow

      Season 7 will be eligible for the 2018 Emmys, and assuming Season 8 also premieres late, then it would be eligible for the 2019 Emmys…

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    35. Young Dragon,

      A better reason? I’m guessing your not married… Finding out your one true love has been banging your sister and 3 bros behind your back while you were trying to return to her will make anyone think of leaving.
      Vintila Corbul,

      I don’t get all the GRRM hate. I’ve waited longer than most to see the ending revealed to my favorite fantasy epic, but I would never trash the guy who came up with a world I love to ponder the lore of and can’t wait to see what the future holds.

      You do realize without GRRM there is no D&D, right?

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    36. WallyFrench,

      Where did i trash the guy,i simply said that if the series was made by him it would take a long ass time to complete just like the books and trust me that is nothing compared to what some of the people say about D and D also your first post doesn’t make sense considering
      1. Jaime is not married to Cersei
      2.Lancel isn’t Jaime’s one true love

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    37. Vintila Corbul,

      of course they’re not married you twit. They’re brother and sister! Doesn’t mean Jamie isn’t steadfastly loyal. Cerseis lack of loyalty is why drives them apart in the books.

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    38. WallyFrench,

      Ordering the murder of innocent bastard children is worse. Influencing a trial so your own brother will be found guilty and executed is worse. Framing a girl of adultery out of jealousy and irrational fear is worse. Any one of these reasons would have been better reasons for Jaime to turn his back on Cersei.

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    39. Adam: Evil people can still legitimately love others. I hear Hitler was a renowned dog lover, for instance.

      Hitler never considered himself to be evil. He was a reactionary who thought that redefining good and evil so that it was no longer considered “good” to hate Jews (which had been the case until the embarrassment of the Dreyfuss affair). He also thought that nationalism was a good thing, as do many people today. Indeed, he was more than half convinced by some of his followers that he was one of the “good” prophesized figures from Revelations. I mean, how much more “good” can you be than that?

      Fantasy too often uses “evil” as something where evil beings (say, orcs) know that they are evil and revel in it. Evil is a side that they choose. However, in reality, what we have are unethical morality systems: it is “good” to treat certain people like dirt, and “good” to give perks to certain other people (who are, of course, more like the gods: after all, those people themselves stress that).

      So, someone like Cersei would never consider herself to be evil. The nun that she tortured was, to Cersei, evil. (Of course, that is a really easy mistake to make: as Chief Wiggum told Snake: “You’ll be seeing lots of nuns where you are going: straight to Hell!” 😀 ) After all, good people do NOT raise a hand against a Lady of high birth, and one who was mother to the King. And nothing (including religion) can excuse that: it is wrong, and (in Cersei’s mind) the nun had to know that she was doing a bad thing of which the gods would disapprove. Ditto that for the High Sparrow: yes, it’s all well and good to talk about crown and church, but in the end, good clergymen work for the crown. After all, didn’t their gods make Cersei and her family better than the common people for a good reason?

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    40. WallyFrench,

      It might drive them apart but I doubt he’ll stop loving her and in the end he’ll die with her or for her. Their relationship is complicated and twisted. They are brother and sister, twins and also lovers so they are bound together by more than the ‘physical’. Even if he feels betrayed by her as a lover, I doubt he’d leave her to die as she’s his sister – she’s family and they are twins, the twin bond is very strong. Much as I’d like to him find his own path, I think the foreshadowing is right – he came in with her and he’ll go out with her.

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    41. WallyFrench,

      Ok since you are starting to get triggered and using insults because you know your arguments suck i would give you an advice to start learning how to write in proper grammar,i can barely tell what the hell do you mean to say .

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    42. Vintila Corbul,

      To: WallyFrench and
      Vintila Corbul

      How about we take it down a notch? The discourse here is consistently civil, even when we disagree with one another. Whatever points you were each trying to make got lost somewhere between “twit” and “suck.”

      Further, nobody’s immune from typos and grammatical errors; as a matter of reciprocal courtesy, we overlook them.
      However, telling someone else:

      Ok since you are starting to get triggered and using insults because you know your arguments suck i would give you an advice to start learning how to write in proper grammar,i can barely tell what the hell do you mean to say”

      brings to mind the old adage about the pot calling the kettle…

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    43. Adam: Robert’s wife, Tywin’s daughter, and Tommen’s mother didn’t exactly work out for Cersei, so she may as well be her own person now.

      Her own person is the same child enraged that she did not have the freedom, opportunities and privileges that her equivalent, her brother, had. Cersei’s motivation stems from her childhood deprivations as much as the losses she experienced as an adult. As intensely painful as Cersei’s life while an adult has been, the force springs from what Jaime got that she did not have.

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    44. Wimsey: So, someone like Cersei would never consider herself to be evil

      Yet, she did seem to know she wasn’t considered to be the epitome of goodness. After Myrcella’s death, she lamented that by giving birth to someone as sweet and good as Myrcella, maybe it meant that she, Cersei, wasn’t completely bad. Something to that effect. So she was a tad self-aware.

      Somewhere on this page, you wondered if Edd was going to be in Season 7. I certainly hope so. I hope that at least one of Jon’s NW brothers survives the whole thing. Well, we know Sam is going to survive, he has a lot of shit to find and relay from the Citadel Library. I think he’s going to find it, too. Anyway, I get a kick out of Ben Crompton’s portrayal of Edd, now the Lord Commander. I think he will have at least a few minutes of time, because Bran and Meera were dropped off close to the gates of the Wall, and Edd will have to let them in.

      As far as NCW, I’m enjoying his portrayal of Jaime way more now than I did at first. It may be because I’ve seen him do well in other things, I don’t know. IMHO he won’t kill Cersei, but he may abandon her to go fight White Walkers. I think he may feel he must redeem himself for both the births and the deaths of his children. He won’t compound all that by adding the weight of having killed his sister, no matter what she’s done.

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    45. Marlana,

      I would add to that Cersei’s (justified) indignation – as she told Tywin when he insisted she marry Loras – that she had already been sold off like a “broodmare” to Robert. Whether the setting is historical or fictional, and even if it’s socially “acceptable”, nobody would be thrilled to be treated like chattel. A girl with a Type A father and a twin brother who gets all the perks in life just because of his gender, while she’s bartered for her womb and her appearance, is bound to be resentful.

      Although the circumstances of Lyanna Stark’s disappearance with Rhaegar are still hazy, my take on it is that she too chafed at the prospect of being “sold off” – involuntarily “betrothed” to Robert. Contrary to Robert’s circulation of fake news with alternative facts that Lyanna was “kidnapped and raped”, from Oberyn’s account of Rheagar leaving Elia Martell for “another woman” and Lyanna’s deathbed scene with young Ned, I subscribe to the majority view that Lyanna fell for a silver-haired dreamboat who was equally crazy about her, and ran off with him of her own volition.

      I understand that in Martin’s world arranged marriages were normal and a dutiful daughter was expected to suck it up and marry whatever bozo her father told her to.

      Yet, for flouting convention and running off with Rhaegar, Lyanna comes off like a romantic Juliet/Helen of Troy
      figure, while an embittered Cersei gets stuck in an arranged marriage with the manwhore Lyanna rejected – and is viewed by some as “evil.”

      Disclaimer: I haven’t read the books, though I understand BookCersei is more of a psycho than ShowCersei. Also, because I’m a huge Lena Headey fan, I admit I’m probably a Cersei apologist. .

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    46. Ten Bears: I subscribe to the majority view that Lyanna fell for a silver-haired dreamboat who was equally crazy about her, and ran off with him of her own volition

      silver-haired dreamboat. LOL

      Ten Bears: Disclaimer: I haven’t read the books, though I understand BookCersei is more of a psycho than ShowCersei. Also, because I’m a huge Lena Headey fan, I admit I’m probably a Cersei apologist. .

      Oh hell, don’t you dare apologize for that great post on Cersei. It was probably the best defense of Cersei’s actions I’ve read. (I, too, am a big LH fan. First became aware of her as the Queen in 300. She was magnificent, and would absolutely be considered a “good” person in that role.) And I never before thought of how Lyanna was considered a “tragic” figure as opposed to Cersei being thought of as a crass, bad, rich bitch.

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    47. Young Dragon,

      You do realize this is the guy who threw a kid from a tower in an attempt to kill him, right? His entire world revolved around the woman he loved. I never said she was a good person. When she cheats on him (repeatedly in books), that’s what breaks him. They haven’t really shown that yet on the show.
      Vintila Corbul,

      “What the hell do you mean to say”…interesting turn of phrase. English is my second language, but that doesn’t seem like proper grammar to me. What’s the saying about people who live in glass houses?

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    48. kathy,

      Interesting take. I don’t know what D&D will do with him, but to me at least GRRM seems to have severed their relationship. The chapter where Jamie tosses Cerseis letter in the fire where it begs him to go to Kings Landing and save her was huge from my perspective. I definitely think he’s the valonquar.

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    49. Ten Bears,

      Excellent post. Though of course Cersei would never think of herself as a victim of any sort. Another reason why some people hate her. Easier to love a victim.

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    50. From the body of the above article:
      “Regarding the controversial viral campaign of the ice block melting to announce the premiere date with supposed audience participation, Nikolaj appeared to be as bewildered as the rest of us, and he wasn’t the only one — the showrunners were too:”

      That’s mystifying – I would have thought that the showrunners would have some idea of, if not veto-rights, to whatever publicity would be shown for the show. Hence the term showRUNNERS. Does this mean that the publicity department works alone without running ideas past them? I’m surprised. I missed the ice-block debacle and was lucky enough to tune in only after the date had been revealed, but I thought for sure that D&D had input regarding the publicity.

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    51. Thronetender: – I would have thought that the showrunners would have some idea of, if not veto-rights, to whatever publicity would be shown for the show. Hence the term showRUNNERS.

      To follow up on HotPinkLipstick‘s point, the “running” refers solely to the production of the show. Everything else, including marketing, is handled by someone else. HBO & all of the other companies that commission shows hire people with advanced degrees in marketing to promote the shows. It makes as much sense for Benioff & Weiss to tell the marketers how to do their jobs as it does for one of the marketers to serve as a script editor or in casting! After all, being good at storytelling and being good at publicity are two skill sets with very little overlap.

      Thronetender: Yet, she did seem to know she wasn’t considered to be the epitome of goodness. After Myrcella’s death, she lamented that by giving birth to someone as sweet and good as Myrcella, maybe it meant that she, Cersei, wasn’t completely bad. Something to that effect. So she was a tad self-aware.

      True! But being aware that you are not perfectly good is not the same as thinking that you are evil. Cersei knows perfectly well that incest and fornication are considered to be bad: and this is a world in which it is assumed that such “sin” rubs off on children. (The same was and even still is in our world: adultery causes birth defects, didn’t you know?)

      This stated, Cersei certainly thinks that it is wrong for her lessers to not treat her as a superior. The gods can judge her: but their minions cannot.

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    52. Young Dragon,

      You wrote (about Cersei):

      Ordering the murder of innocent bastard children is worse. Influencing a trial so your own brother will be found guilty and executed is worse. Framing a girl of adultery out of jealousy and irrational fear is worse. Any one of these reasons would have been better reasons for Jaime to turn his back on
      Cersei.”

      In the show at least, to my recollection there was no confirmation that Cersei, rather than Joffrey, ordered the murder of Robert’s bastards. During Janos Slynt’s dinner with Tyrion, Janos said “Orders are orders.” When Tyrion replied “Quite right, especially the Queen’s orders”, Slynt pointed out: ‘I never said the Queen gave the order.” To me, the timing suggests it was Joffrey who was behind the murders.

      As for Tyrion’s trial for regicide, Littlefinger is the one who orchestrated the murder of Joffrey and framed Tyrion (and Sansa). Cersei genuinely believed Tyrion killed her son. If you watch the trial scene, all of the witnesses’ testimony – though one-sided — was true (except for Shae’s). Unfortunately, Tyrion’s own taunts and threats to Joffrey came back to bite him in the ass. But Tyrion – and Cersei – were both set up by WeaselFinger and his “new friends”, the Tyrells. Sansa’s disappearance from the murder scene and the poisoned stones on Dontos’s corpse – also orchestrated by LF – reinforced the appearance of Sansa’s complicity, “Influencing a trial” so that Tyrion would be found guilty: that’s all on Littlefinger and Olenna (and I never quite understood why Olenna would agree to involve poor Sansa in the poisoned necklace scheme.)

      As for “framing a girl of adultery”, that never happened – at least on the show. Margaery was never accused of, never confessed to, and was never found guilty of adultery.

      # FreeCersei
      #LongMaySheReign
      # LenaRules

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    53. Ten Bears,

      I wouldn’t have brought that up if he didn’t call me a twig for no reason,read his previous post and try to see if you understand what the hell he’s talking about .

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    54. WallyFrench,

      “A better reason? I’m guessing your not married… Finding out your one true love has been banging your sister and 3 bros behind your back while you were trying to return to her will make anyone think of leaving”
      After you wrote this post you should have just shut up,you’re embarrassing .

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    55. Marlana: Her own person is the same child enraged that she did not have the freedom, opportunities and privileges that her equivalent, her brother, had.Cersei’s motivation stems from her childhood deprivations as much as the losses she experienced as an adult.As intensely painful as Cersei’s life while an adult has been, the force springs from what Jaime got that she did not have

      and from what Cersei wanted but could not have – marriage to Rhaegar. Reading Cersei V for the upcoming Game of Owns episode, we see how intensely Cersei felt that Tywin failed her because Aerys would not allow his son to marry the daughter of his servant. No wonder Tywin and Cersei were so determined to take over the throne!

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    56. Ten Bears: Although the circumstances of Lyanna Stark’s disappearance with Rhaegar are still hazy,

      1) we still don’t know what prophecy Rhaegar read that supposedly prompted him to romance Lyanna. That could be a need to breed Stark with Targaryan for some vital reason, such as defeating the WWs.

      2) lyanna was not available to her father for guidance, and her father was killed, while Cersei lived with her father who was able to enforce his edicts. So Lyanna could die surrounded by a blue rose petal cloud of romanticism, while Cersei married as directed.

      3) posts above by Ten Bears, Wolfish, and Lonely Cat get to the deep, intense, driving pain that impel Cersei to the acts that make people debate is she evil or not. What Cersei has done lately reflects what was done to her earlier.

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    57. Thronetender,

      Yes! Lena was a great queen in “300”! I also loved her in “Imagine Me and You.”
      I also admire her for the mentor-acolyte relationship she’s developed with Maisie Williams. They don’t publicize it, but their social media exchanges (especially when Maisie got her first Emmy nomination) have been wonderful.
      I’ve also been watching a bunch of the DVD episode commentaries recently. Lena is in a lot of them. She’s got such a lovely voice, a warm personality, and a great rapport with Peter Dinklage and the other participating actors.

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    58. Ten Bears: Yet, for flouting convention and running off with Rhaegar, Lyanna comes off like a romantic Juliet/Helen of Troy figure

      Rembering that the abduction of Helen, as it was called, started a Bronze Age war as brutal as Got.

      The milli-Helen is that amount of beauty required to launch one ship.

      What is a milli-Lyanna?

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    59. Thronetender: I hope that at least one of Jon’s NW brothers survives the whole thing.

      About survivors, on the way to the Citadel, Sam has a dream:

      Sam is in his ancestral hall and feasting his friends, including Jon and men from the NW. They are all dressed is colorful clothes, not black. If they are not in black, the NW must be obsolete. And destruction did not extend to Sam’s castle.

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    60. Marlana,

      (1) But do we know it was a prophecy that prompted Rhaegar to romance Lyanna Stark? Didn’t some other character say Rhaegar “loved his Lady Lyanna” or something like that, and he died with her name on his lips? 😢
      I’d hate to think that the star-crossed romance that set the whole story in motion was just a breeding program Rhaegar formulated after reading something in a book.
      Again, I haven’t read the books, but it’s my understanding that we are still awaiting some explanation why the “noble” Rhaegar, a married man, would humiliate his wife and run off with Lyanna Stark, who herself was wary of Robert’s promiscuity; why they didn’t tell their families; and why they’d allow a devastating civil war to ensue because of their actions.
      As for the “prophecy” Rhaegar apparently read about, and s whole bunch of others, I’ve got my own crackpot theory that they weren’t prophecies at all; I’m just reluctant to float something that sounds like I’ve been smoking tinfoil.

      (2) I’m not sure what you meant about Lyanna not being available to her father. Didn’t he agree to the arranged marriage to Robert? I thought her father got roasted alive by the Mad King after her older brother got charged with treason for storming off to the capitol to threaten Rhaegar (who wasn’t even there).
      I don’t know…lots of unexplained back story that will hopefully be revealed before the show ends next year.

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    61. Ten Bears: lots of unexplained back story that will hopefully be revealed before the show ends next year.

      I meant no one could tell Lyanna what to do after she left home. And then her father was killed.

      I want the reveals and I want them now. It will take at least volume eight to cover the pending reveals.

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    62. Ten Bears: I’m just reluctant to float something that sounds like I’ve been smoking tinfoil.

      No problem really. Whenever I post my best theories, my posts are deleted. That probably means I have guessed right.

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    63. Thronetender,

      Yeah, I can’t see Jamie killing his sister either: after living with the stain of regicide for so many years (and earning himself his “Kingslayer” and “Oathbreaker” epithets for saving half a million people), it’d be disheartening if he committed regicide again, combined with kinslaying.

      Ever since Joffrey made the snide remark to Jaime while looking at Jaime’s blank page in the Kingsguard White Book, (“Somebody forgot to write down all your great deeds”), I’ve hoped that he’d accomplish something heroic to balance out some of the really sh-tty things he’s done in his life.

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    64. Ten Bears: I’ve hoped that he’d accomplish something heroic to balance out some of the really sh-tty things Jaime has done in his life.

      So many posters want Jaime to redeem himself in some way, such as dying heroically. Redemption does not sound medieval. Westeros did not expect redemption except possibly priests of the seven.

      Redemption is conventional in our era. Redemption is possibly too conventional to pass muster in ASoIaF.
      Defeating expectation of redemption will be part of GRRM’s bittersweet.

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    65. Thronetender,

      One other thing about Jaime: he only has one hand. Singular, not plural. The Valanqor (sp?) is supposed to wrap his hands (plural) about her throat. A golden hand is a prosthesis, not a hand.
      Maggy the Frog’s got a perfect track record thus far. I can’t envision some strained interpretation of her words to fulfill the throat strangling part of her prophecy.

      I suspect Martin carefully worded the Valanqor prophecy so that a “dark horse” candidate will fit the criteria. (I’ll post my assumptions tomorrow, so get your virtual spitballs and tomatoes ready…)

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    66. Marlana,

      Ha! You must be telepathic. As soon as I pressed “Post Comment”, I thought to myself “But this is GRRM’s universe. Disappointed expectations and unfulfilled hopes are the rule; “redemption” and justice are the exception.

      So you’re probably going to be right.

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    67. Marlana,

      Martin specifically said he is exploring the concepts and boundaries of redemption with Jaime. Whether you think it follows or not, it’s the author’s intent to look at redemption with the Jaime character.

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    68. Wimsey: To follow up on HotPinkLipstick‘s point, the “running” refers solely to the production of the show.Everything else, including marketing, is handled by someone else.HBO & all of the other companies that commission shows hire people with advanced degrees in marketing to promote the shows.It makes as much sense for Benioff & Weiss to tell the marketers how to do their jobs as it does for one of the marketers to serve as a script editor or in casting!After all, being good at storytelling and being good at publicity are two skill sets with very little overlap.

      Well, actually that’s not strictly true. Some showrunners and directors do exercise some degree of control over advertisements and trailers, not all. D&D do not, to the best of my recollection, but in TV for example, Ronald Moore and Steven Moffat do. In film Spielberg, David Fincher and David Lynch have final cut approval over trailers. Fincher even has final approval power over the still images used for posters and advertisements (LOL). But yea, still the majority of showrunners in TV and directors in film do not have control over publicity.

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    69. WallyFrench:
      kathy,

      Interesting take. I don’t know what D&D will do with him, but to me at least GRRM seems to have severed their relationship. The chapter where Jamie tosses Cerseis letter in the fire where it begs him to go to Kings Landing and save her was huge from my perspective. I definitely think he’s the valonquar.

      I think Jaime will kill Cersei in the books (if we ever get them), but in the show I think Cersei will kill herself.
      Don’t know what GRRM means to do with Jamie in the end, but I think D&D’s Jaime is in a straight-up redemption arc.

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    70. Ten Bears,

      I was speaking in regards to the books. In the books, it’s heavily implied that Cersei is the one who ordered Robert’s bastards to be killed. She also attempted to frame Margarey for sleeping with one of the Kingsguard.

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    71. Ten Bears:
      Marlana,

      Why would your theories be deleted if nobody knows the ending yet?

      perhaps some think they know the ending, and want to protect posters from considering certain ideas. I don’t know. With personal attacks, trolling and spoiling being permitted, why mere theories are deleted is a question I have not answered.

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    72. Ten Bears: But this is GRRM’s universe. Disappointed expectations and unfulfilled hopes are the rule; “redemption” and justice are the exception.

      Ye gods, look how well GRRM has us trained to expect the worse. He promised “bittersweet” – and all we do is see/expect/ruminate on what the bitter will be, so that he doesn’t surprise us too much when disaster befalls our beloved characters.

      Redemption is not THAT modern of a concept. It’s been around for a while and has played out in the history from which GRRM so loves to derive inspiration. I do rather believe/hope/want to expect that Jaime is on a redemption arc, one that started mainly in a bathtub with Brienne so many seasons ago. (loved that scene)

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    73. Ten Bears: “But this is GRRM’s universe. Disappointed expectations and unfulfilled hopes are the rule; “redemption” and justice are the exception.

      After I posted my comment above about bittersweet, I kept thinking about what you wrote. If all those negative things are GRRM’s universe, and we’ve come to expect them rather than to search for and expect even a modicum of sweet, then his universe is sorely out-of-balance. There is sweet in this world, and there is justice, or at least the love of justice, the awareness of the concepts of justice and redemption, and love and making something beautiful in your own life. These are strictly human concepts, and being human concepts, if we allow ourselves to stop expecting such things, then we lose parts of our humanity.

      Yeah yeah, the world sometimes stinks, real and GRRM, and horrific things happen. But we must fight to maintain the expectation of the better parts of human nature, or we end up on that slippery downward slope. Rant over, enjoy your day.

      This is in no way a knock of anything you wrote, Ten Bears. I love the way you write. It’s just my way of clinging on to the sweetness of life, and kicking back the other nastiness snapping at my old heels and heart.

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    74. Hal.E.Lujah:
      Surely the trailer is coming out today. This time last year was the Premiere.

      The premiere was April 24th. I don’t expect a trailer until June, or May at the earliest.

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    75. Thronetender,

      But here’s the thing, we’ve so many times fallen into the trap of feeling like we know what’s going to happen. We were fools once, watching the show or reading the books, looking forward to Ned puzzling it out. We all had the rug pulled from beneath us, but we thought we were wiser now. ‘He can only pull that trick once’ I remember thinking. It felt like going into the next books, and the next season for show fans, that where could the story really go? It all felt like it would fall into place as a generic fantasy revenge story.

      Then Red Wedding. At last though, we said that we had learnt, and we took nothing for granted. We weren’t sweet summer children. We knew what was coming. And it was awful. And even then there were times when we doubted our cynicism – The Viper and The Mountain, for a half heartbeat, got me when I read it. And Even when I watched the episode, after reading the books, I even then thought it would go the right way, the way all books and films had trained me to believe.

      And after oh so many moments like that, here we are, on the precipice of the end, and we don’t truly know what will happen. I’ve managed to stay relatively spoiler free, through great care and restraint, and what I’ve seen is countless people saying things like ‘Where can the show go? Dany will conquer Westeros with her massive army. Boring…’ and I feel like we’ve learnt nothing. Many of us still expect that standard fantasy story.

      When I look at Jamie’s story, I feel like he’s surely going to save the day. He’s surely going to redeem himself. And that more than anything tells me that surely he won’t. What I’ve started to realise is that there’s perhaps nothing to redeem – He’s just a person and that’s how it is.

      Anyway that rant got out of control quickly but I just wanted to share that haha.

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    76. George: D&D do not, to the best of my recollection, but in TV for example, Ronald Moore and Steven Moffat do. In film Spielberg, David Fincher and David Lynch have final cut approval over trailers

      Those cases are rare, and (as you note) basically apply to what is shown for trailers. Other aspects of publicity (such as the melting block of ice) are done by proper marketers.

      Moffat is the one interesting case that would be most relevant to franchise fans. Doctor Who is, of course, plagued by the same level of “leaks” that other “cult” shows (such as Game of Thrones) has. Some hardcore fans, after all, actually work to find out what is happening: a lot of these “leaks” are less like a boat springing a leak than they are like someone hitting the boat with a torpedo to cause the leaks.

      Moffat (who was a fan before he was a showrunner) is acutely aware of this, and he also hates spoilers. So, he actually has used marketing (as well as the Internet) to plant misinformation about what is happening. Evidently, he did this brilliantly a couple of years ago. For those of you familiar with the show, you will know that the Doctor has a long-standing Time Lord “Moriarity”: the Master. The Master first appeared in 1971 and has had, like the Doctor, multiple actors playing the role. Moffat was bringing back the Master again after 4 or 5 years with another new portrayal. Moffatt knew that the hardcores would suss it out, so he cleverly planted misinformation in both the adds and on the Internet implying that the actor was portraying another character from the old series, and one that only hardcores would remember. (The character, the Rani, appeared in two awful and utterly forgettable stories in the mid 1980’s, when nobody was watching the show because it had become so bad.)

      And, of course: it worked brilliantly because it seemed like the sort of information that only hardcore fans could work out! When it turned out the be the Master rather than the one that the 128 Anoraks wanted, the 128 Anoraks screamed with rage: which is to say, nobody cared.

      Of course, the BBC works under a completely different marketing scheme than does HBO, and in general, showrunners have much more influence on the whole package than do showrunners for programs done in the US or elsewhere. A common refrain for producers who have worked for both is that you get control but no money working for the BBC, and money but no control working for Hollywood!

      Marlana: About survivors, on the way to the Citadel, Sam has a dream

      Given that Sam has zero propensity for prophetic dreams, I would take that to be just a dream!

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    77. By the way, for those of you dissing marketers and how nothing they do impresses you, Joe Jackson wrote a song for you years ago:

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    78. George: I think Jaime will kill Cersei in the books (if we ever get them), but in the show I think Cersei will kill herself.

      I would not expect that. Both Book!Cersei and Show!Cersei has long since started to see herself as the Queen. If anything would have pushed her to suicide, it would have been the loss of her last child. Instead, it pushed her to claim the crown outright. At this point, I think that her “Lannister First” morality coupled with her obsession with her personal prophecy has led to her evolving into someone who will never cede the crown to anyone willingly.

      To this end, I very much see Jaime being the one to finish her off. My bet is that it is going to be the Kingslaying all over again: only this time, he will be remembered well for it!

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    79. Vintila Corbul,

      It’s done. Move on. We both were wrong and we both embarrassed ourselves. I apologize for calling you a twit and for messing up my statement in calling Lancel Jamies true love and not Cersei.

      Wimsey,

      Lol 🙂

      George,

      Agreed on book Jamie (God I hope it comes out in 2017/8) Hmm….I never thought about the show Jamie divergence. I think he will be elsewhere when Cersei dies and joins Dany in the war to come. I think Cersei is killed in dragon fire by Dany.

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    80. WallyFrench: Hmm….I never thought about the show Jamie divergence.

      Given how little divergence there is, there is not much about which to think! Jaime’s realization that despite how much he thought he was Tywin II, he really is someone capable of giving a damn about non-Lannisters is a major landmark in his evolution. That will be big before it is said and done in both media: and probably in pretty much the same way.

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    81. Hal.E.Lujah,
      Wimsey,

      To say the truth, I also have a very bad feeling about Jaime’s redemption arch. I mean, he is clearly on his way to redemption, but I bet that Cersei won’t let him go any further. No way, she will allow Jaime abandon her just like that: they came to the world together, they have to leave together as well. And if Jaime tries to take his own path, IMO she will kill him or at least try to.
      She may send an assassin or simply spill out the beans that it was Jaime who pushed Bran Stark out of the window. IMO, in such case not only the surviving Starks, but even Brienne will decide that honor compells them to cut Jaime’s head off (or cut his throat, if the task is undertaken by Arya). And thus Jaime may die before completing his redemption punished for his old crimes, and then it will be Tyrion who will choak life out of Cersei. But it looks like this is a speculation for S8, rather that S7.

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    82. Ten Bears,

      Your right on the show Joffrey ordered the murders of Robert’s Bartheon but in the books it was definitely Cersei, as stated before Cersei was a lot more darker in the books but D&D while still getting her to make atricous acts toned it down making her more sympathetic.

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    83. Inga,

      About “spill[ing] the beans” that Jaime pushed Bran out the window: He freely admitted to Catelyn that he did it. I’m assuming she didn’t keep it to herself.

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    84. Inga,

      I don’t think that Cersei would ever be able to accept that Jaime is not entirely on her side. She gets angry with him for screwing up and will occasionally “cast him out” in a pique of range: but her core belief is that the two of them are inseparable. She will always go back to him and she believes that he will always come back to her.

      Mel: D&D while still getting her to make atricous acts toned it down making her more sympathetic.

      I think that it had less to do with how they wanted the audience to perceive Cersei and more about how they wanted the audience to perceive Joffery. Show!Joffery is much less of a buffoon than is Book!Joffery. Part of it is that Show!Joffery gets to be much older, but I think that a big part of it is that they wanted Joffery to be a tangible antagonist, not just for Sansa, but also for Cersei herself. That really was needed because the show started making a Cersei a protagonist very early: really, by the second season. The books did not make her one until Crows/Dragons.

      What the show did do was make Cersei a lot less stupid than Book!Cersei. Oh, Show!Cersei still suffers from a bad case of Dunning-Kruger: but much less so than does Book!Cersei. Show!Cersei knows that this is a bad move: but having to deal with the fallout of Joffery’s impulsive and cruel behavior is forms the basis for her contribution to the conflicted loyalties (loyalty to Joffery vs. loyalty to what is good for Joffery) and love-hate (Show!Cersei recognizes that her beloved son is a monster).

      I think that this also set her up for a greater fall. Cersei is starting to lose her hold on things: and by portraying her as they did, it’s more obvious now that she’s becoming unhinged than it would be if we still had “well, maybe she’s just doing this because she’s an absolute moron.” After all, one thing that both stupid people and (some sorts of) insane people have in common is an inability to not act on their emotions. Everybody gets pissed off and says “Burn their cities to the ground” in some way or another: the stupid and the crazy are much more prone to rush into to doing it. By showing that that Cersei is becoming more prone to acting on impulse, they are showing us that she’s losing her grip on reality.

      Otherwise, the audience goes to the old standby so well summarized on Babylon 5: “Always bet on stupid!” 😀

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    85. Ten Bears,

      It definitely was a prophecy that prompted Rhaegar to go after Lyanna, it doesn’t mean they didn’t fall in love but it was all triggered by his obsession with the prophecy. Rhaegar believed practically his whole life he was the Prince Who Was Promised (probably due to the fact that his parents were forced to marry even though they didn’t want to because they were told their line would create The Prince That Was Promised) but then Rhaegar realized he wasn’t but when he had a son with Elia, Aegon he believed Aegon was the Prince Who Was Promised. He also believed The Dragon Must Have Three Heads but Elia struggled through the births and almost died, Rhaegar was told she wouldn’t survive another birth but he only had two children and he needed Three Heads Of The Dragon, soon after he displayed a interest in Lyanna. The relationship between the two of them is shrouded in mystery, we have yet to see in any books what kind of relationship they truly had or what their thougjts were as they literally disappeared for a entire year but anyway Rhaegar believed he had succeeded Three Heads Of The Dragon, because he believed he was fulfilling the prophecy no harm would come to him at The Trident obviously he was very very wrong. GRRM has had his own characters say in the books that people who try and force Prophecies it usually ends up being their downfall and leads to their deaths which happened to Rhaegar. GRRM has also stated the people take Prophecies to literally and they aren’t always supposed to be taken that way.

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    86. Wimsey,

      True, there’s not much. I think show Jamie is staying a bit more loyal to Cersei though. But that may be due to lack of readable thoughts and/or the fact that Tyrion and Jamie left on good terms in the show. So, Tyrion never divulged that Cersei was sleeping with multiple men.

      I’m pumped to see what happens! The nice thing is things are similar enough to provide closure, while dissimilar enough that if/when GRRM finishes it’ll feel unique.

      Ten Bears,

      Even if she did. After the Red Wedding, who is left that is alive to tell!

      Wimsey,

      Agreed. Show Cersei seems far more clever than book Cersei. I’d love to know why D&D decided to make that so.

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    87. Hal.E.Lujah: What I’ve started to realise is that there’s perhaps nothing to redeem – He’s just a person and that’s how it is.

      Posters have stated that GRRM has said that Jaime is a study in redemption. By contrast, I agree with you and have tried to convey here that redemption is not really part of the ASoIaF world. If bittersweet is that Jaime does not redeem himself or does not die heroically for a cause bigger than himself, then Jaime’s endgame will be bitter to some.

      Jaime has evolved somewhat. As Lord Commander of the Kingsguard listening to Loras, Jaime realized that vain, narcissistic Loras is as Jaime was when he was inducted into the Kingsguard. When listening to Loras, Jaime was listening to his fifteen year old self. Outside Riverrun entering the siege camps, Jaime had the insight that this was what he liked, this being out in the field doing warfare. Jaime was now doing senior management, all the while thinking that his father did not have to put up with the dissent and defiance he was facing.

      Jaime’s character development is to be expected, though not required; it is not necessarily the arc to redemption. Just because Jaime grew up during his experiences does not mean that he will do something that fans call redemption.

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    88. Wimsey,

      That is true, Varys knew it well in the books which is why he killed Kevan because he knew how incompetent Cersei is without Kevan, Tywin and Jamie so with them out of the way all he needs to to is basically sit back, relax, enjoy some popcorn and watch as Cersei falls.

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    89. WallyFrench,

      You wrote : “Even if she did [ie if Catelyn told others about Jaime’s admission that he pushed Bran out the window]. After the Red Wedding, who is left that is alive to tell!”

      The Blackfish was alive to tell. In S6E8, he knew all about Jaime’s deal with Catelyn to return Sansa and Arya in exchange for his freedom. She would’ve told her uncle about Jaime’s admission too.

      The gist of my reply was that Cersei couldn’t use the threat of “spilling the beans” on Jaime to extort him: he did not and would not deny pushing Bran out the window. And what’s Cersei gonna say? That she was an eye witness because she was the one having sex with Jaime and alerted him that Bran was peeking at them through the tower window?

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    90. Ten Bears,

      I don’t think Catelyn told anyone what Jaime confessed to her. She certainly didn’t tell Rob: he would have chopped Jaime’s head of, and Jaime was Catelyn’s only hope to get back her daugters. And if she didn’t tell Rob, hardly she told anyone else and as WallyFrench rightfully admitted everyone who was around Catelyn those days died at the Red Wedding.

      Except for Brienne. But I don’t think Catelyn told her anyway for the reasons I mentioned above. So, it looks like Cersei is the only person who knows the truth for the moment and if Jaime leaves her and goes to help the Stakrs as he did in the books, Cersei will do anything to wreck his plans and making this knowledge public will be a good choice in this case even, if it puts Jaime’s life at risk.

      Wimsey,

      I don’t agree with you that Cersei will NEVER accept that Jaime is not entirely on her side anymore. This may be the case for book!Cersei, but again – only before as she learns, that he tossed her letter into the fire. No women would allow something like that go unpunished.

      As for the show!Cersey and show!Jaime, IMO S7 will be the season of big revelations for both of them. First, it looks like Jaime will realise that Cersei is perfectly capable of finding another suitor. So far, he somehow thought that he was the only man his poor hateful siter was able to love, but now a major disillusionment is just around the corner. And when that happens it will be Cersei’s turn to learn that Jaime is not her lapdog, but the Lanister lion who pays his debts. But she would rather burn her house to the ground, than give her twin to someone or something else. After all, we are aproaching the final finale and their story (as well as the overall story of the Lannister siblings) has to come to it’s climax too.

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    91. The Dragon Demands:
      “debacle” is the term we’re using now?

      I don’t know if “we” are, but I did, and I am. It was a pretty disastrous media campaign. At least it was short, unlike ‘The Sight’ a few years ago. You may use whatever term you prefer in your wiki, while I’ll keep on with mine. Deal? 😉

      Wimsey,

      We should sit and talk about Doctor Who some day. Seriously. We share geeky devotion towards yet another show, and that’s pretty cool. I knew you were well-acquainted with the old series and such, but I didn’t know you were up-to-date. Any thoughts on Capaldi’s Doctor and Series 10, Moffat’s last?

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    92. WallyFrench: True, there’s not much. I think show Jamie is staying a bit more loyal to Cersei though. But that may be due to lack of readable thoughts and/or the fact that Tyrion and Jamie left on good terms in the show. So, Tyrion never divulged that Cersei was sleeping with multiple men.

      That is a challenge for the cinematic medium: essentially, the POV is the audience’s, not a character’s unless they resort to the voice-over narrative. (And we all know what they tell us about that in the movie Adaptation!)

      WallyFrench: Agreed. Show Cersei seems far more clever than book Cersei. I’d love to know why D&D decided to make that so.

      Again, I think it goes back to the fact that stupid people and some types of insane people share some personality traits, particularly an inability to not act on emotions. If they want to show us that Cersei has become unhinged, then they need to show us that she was (at one point) hinged. (Is that a phrase?)
      ((If not, then it should be.))

      (((I claim ownership, too))).

      ((((I like parentheses.)))) 😉

      So, to develop a sane Cersei, they gave us a smart(er) Cersei. Still, Tywin did warn us (and her): she’s nowhere near as smart as she thinks that she is.

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    93. Ten Bears,

      Catelyn’s deal with Jaime was a completely different thing. Everyone knew that it was she who freed the Kingslayer – Rob even had her arrested for that. Therefore she used every oportunity to explain her actions to anyone who cared to listen.

      As for Jaime’s admission – well, Catelyn could have shared the secret with her beloved uncle, but Blackfish is dead anyway. So, I highly doubt that there is anyone but Cersei to tell Jon or Sansa or Arya that it was Jaime who turned Bran into a cripple, unless Bran remembers that himself.

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    94. Inga: This may be the case for book!Cersei, but again – only before as she learns, that he tossed her letter into the fire. No women would allow something like that go unpunished.

      But that is just another spat. Remember, even in the book, Cersei has written Jaime off at that point: but then she went running back to him (emotionally) when alone and desperate. Jaime & Cersei have had ups and downs: and they always wind up back with each other. The difference is that Jaime actually is growing as a person, whereas Cersei is not: and her diminishment is basically to become “concentrated Cersei.” Even when she was sane, she felt that the universe revolved around her: and as she loses more marbles, she’s going to become more convinced of this. Jaime naturally gravitating back to her is part of that.

      Regarding Bran, I’m pretty sure that Brienne knows about this, too. And there is zero reason to think that Catelyn kept this secret.

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    95. Luka Nieto: Any thoughts on Capaldi and Series 10, Moffat’s last?

      Yeah, I am a Whovian! That written, I never took to Capaldi’s Doctor. Part of it was that I thought that Eccleston was great, and that Tennant and then Smith both topped their predecessor. Another big part of it is that the writing for Capaldi’s first season was pretty bad. My understanding is that Moffat thought that Smith was staying for another season (the Beeb split Smith’s 3rd season into two half seasons: and thus the miscommunication was understandable.) Supposedly the very rushed and haphazard Smith Finale was the Smith Season 4 arch condensed into a single plot, and that left them without a firm idea for the next season (although the Master would have been involved). Of course, that might be Moffat’s misinfo campaign! 🙂

      Part of my problem is that Capaldi is a throwback to the “Classic Series.” That was fine then: but not anymore. It is almost like having Aragorn in Game of Thrones: it just doesn’t fit. But another part is that I think that the show hit a peak with the initial arcs concerning the Silence and River Song. Also, the 50th Anniversary story was fantastic: it was everything that the 20th Anniversary special (yeah, I’m that old!) was not. So, there is a natural letdown (or pair of letdowns) after that.

      So, although I think Moffat was great for the show, I also think that it’s time for someone new to take over. Hopefully it will get me hooked again! But, here it is 3+ years later, and every time I watch the show, I can only think “I miss Matt Smith…..”

      But, yes: sometimes it does seem like we were separated at birth. Well, except that I think I’m a lot older than you. Wait: you aren’t one of my bastards, are you?!?!?

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    96. Wimsey,

      I watched the 50th Anniversary Special in the cinema, with dozens of other fans. Imagine that. It was amazing. My favorite episode by far. The show hasn’t been that good since (except for a few moments), but it was rarely ever THAT good. Series 8 had its fair share of problems, but I think 9 was much better. I still think series 6 is my favorite (if you believe the peak was the Silence and River Song, I assume you agree), and Matt Smith’s Doctor is MY Doctor, but I’ve warmed up to Capaldi. Yes, he’s a throwback, more of a classic Doctor, but I like to see that archetype thrown into a modern version of the show.

      It may help that I’ve only experienced the classic show in retrospect, when even the last few Classic Who series were quite dated for me…. hell, even Eccleston’s series looked too dated, too cheap, too 90’s TV. I was already used to TV shows having a cinematic quality, and that first series in particular… did not. I started watching about 6 years too late. So, instead, I decided to start with Matt Smith, series 5, and then when I got hooked I went backwards to series one… and then backwards still to the classic series! Convoluted, I know.

      Oh, and — Age-wise, I COULD be your son, I’m pretty sure, yeah!

      PS. I actually like The Five Doctors, the 20th Anniversary! Baker’s absence was deeply felt and crudely justified, and with that budget the serial couldn’t live up to its promise, but oh well… that’s nothing new for this show! The Three Doctor ten years earlier was better executed, but I admire the 20th’s ambition.

      A few years back, I wrote reviews for some key serials, including T3D and T5D. Look them up if you want. I haven’t read them in years, so I don’t know if I stand up for everything I say in them, but I do know it was fun to write them. These were my first impressions, my first time watching Classic Who.

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    97. Marlana,

      Holy crap! I read that exact chapter this afternoon!
      Wimsey,

      Good points! Definitely necessary in a visual medium. D&D have done crazy well with translating the source material to TV, but God I am crazed to find out how GRRM sees things ending!

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    98. Wimsey,

      Nine was, well….fantastic. He’s my Doctor. Matt was fine, but didn’t have a chance at living up to the rabid fandom of Tennant. I quite like Capaldi and his angry eyebrows (“I’ve gone Scottish!”) I liked that he was a bit older. And of course, the War Doctor – how can we not love the fantastic John Hurt.

      If I never see River Song again, however, it’ll be too soon. Love Alex Kingston, sick of the character.

      My ex works on Doctor Who, and got me into the classic series. I especially appreciate noticing the Daleks with not-quite-concealed feet, and the 3D cutouts used back in the day.

      And then of course, this gem, with our own High Sparrow (they’re Dalek bumps!!!):

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    99. Marlana,

      Yeah it’s interesting food for thought

      I’ve seen Jaimies path not so much about “redemption” but always go back to the blank page on the Kingsguard book in the White Tower

      Eg, Jaimies arc seems to be about agency, eg when younger he was expected to be Lord of Casterly Rock, so had his life and duties laid out for him, even is marriage arranged by parents (dodged a bullet it seems with Lysa…).

      Then he’s in the Kingsguard and has no agency and has to do whatever the King tells him etc, Jaimie defying the Kings order to kill Tywin and then killing King and Pyromancers was as much about Jaimie making his own decision as it was “breaking the oath”

      Then he’s having to do what Cersei tells him and puts him etc

      So, those “No” words at Cersei’s letter in RR is as much about him making his own decision as it is about him “turning off” Cersei

      Intriguingly he also seems to have put a bit of life and (strange sounding) laughter back into Ser Ilyn Paine, who lived only for death

      So, for mine Jaimie character arc continually goes back to that blank page and how to fill it, he has the authority to write what he chooses

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    100. Ghost Lunch,

      Yes, interesting points. It’s ironic that Jaime, born heir to Casterly Rock, has almost no agency when conventionally it is women who have no agency. Cersei is the monster she has become because she had no agency and saw her brother as having all the breaks.

      In the book, Jaime’s page in the White Book has entries, most written by Barristan. Jaime’s battlefield promotion at fifteen and elevation to the KG at fifteen are noted, and a few tournament wins. Next to Barristan’s exploits (such as single-handedly rescuing the king from captivity) and achievements, Jaime’s page is damning by faint praise. It rankles. He could have written a few more tournament wins, Jaime complains. Now Jaime can’t even write right handed.

      Events in Jaime’s life are enough to jolt him out of his rut and role. Going forward, it will be interesting to see what Jaime chooses to do, as it will be outside of what he was previously defined to be. The fact that Jaime’s actions will be independent of Cersei is not the point because it will be external factors that draw him away.

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    101. Marlana,

      I don’t understand. What exactly is “agency” and why do you say Jaime “has almost no agency”? Jaime has always done what he wants, even if it’s to do nothing or defy expectations. He could’ve been Lord of Casterly Rock and cranked out children like Tywin repeatedly pressured him to do, but he preferred to hang out in the capitol. He could’ve been Hand, but like he told Cersei that didn’t interest him. He singlehandedly (no pun intended 🖐) saved half a million people from incineration by terminating Aerys and his pyromancers. As he told Cersei early on, he’d kill Robert and everyone else in the world to protect them if he had to; and in S6 successfully ended the siege of Riverrun without bloodshed just as he set out to do. When he was a POW, he “proactively” bashed in his cousin’s skull to escape. He defied “the Gods” and his father to free Tyrion and save him from execution. He pushed a little kid out of a window because it was expedient

      If “agency” is some new term for self-determination, or actively taking control of one’s fate rather than passively reacting to external forces, then The Kingslayer’s got “agency” up the wazoo.

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    102. Ten Bears,

      See Ghost Lunch above. He was deprived of the opportunity to be Lord of Casterly Rock because The Mad King appointed him to KG to deprive Tywin of an heir. KG can take no wife and hold no property. They just hang around and guard the king. A stultifying honor. As you say,he had achievements and did actions, but the outline of his life was defined by others and he was confined to it.

      Now, expelled from the KG and bereft of his dominating father, he has a freedom he did not have before.

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    103. Luka Nieto,

      For what it’s worth:

      • “Debacle” was the proper term, and was properly used in the right context with the correct connotation to describe the showrunners’ (and fandom’s) reactions to the melting ice block ad campaign. The definition of “debacle” is an utter failure. (Sources: Oxford English Dictionary; Baratheon, Stannis A Grammar Nazi’s Guide to Correct English Usage. ) That pretty much sums up the article’s discussion of the disappointing ad campaign.

      • I don’t get it: I thought The Demanding One would be ecstatic when anything associated with HBO’s Game of Thrones is deemed a “debacle.”

      • I’d bet if WoW posted an article mentioning that the earth revolves around the sun, the Dragon Dissents would denounce it as fallacious fanboy fanfic.

      • Taking the time to cherry-pick one word in a title of a post and frivolously questioning its propriety? Really? That’s about as constructive as “actively campaigning” to replace the showrunners.

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    104. Marlana,

      I understood that Jaime, at Cersei’s suggestion, joined the KG at a young age so he could be near Cersei in the Capitol and thwart Tywin’s plans to marry him off. At the same time, Aerys did intend Jaime’s KG appointment as a slight to Tywin; that, in conjunction with the Mad King’s refusal to agree to a Cersei-Rhaegar marriage, pissed off Tywin and prompted him to quit as Hand and return to Casterly Rock with Cersei, and in the process screwed up the twins’ plan to stay together

      Somebody with extensive book + show knowledge would know better than me.

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    105. WallyFrench,

      You wrote to Vintila Corbul:
      ” It’s done. Move on. We both were wrong and we both embarrassed ourselves. I apologize for calling you a twit and for messing up my statement in calling Lancel Jamies true love and not Cersei.”

      ……
      That was really classy of you. Bravo.

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    106. Pigeon: If I never see River Song again, however, it’ll be too soon. Love Alex Kingston, sick of the character.

      Ah, I loved River: but, then, I’m a middle-aged academic. Of course, my answer to “Which is the hottest Stark Girl” is Cat, too. (I’m sure that the other two will be very attractive in another couple of decades…..)

      Luka Nieto: Oh, and — Age-wise, I COULD be your son, I’m pretty sure, yeah!

      Get off of my lawn! Oh, sorry: we old people do that.

      Luka Nieto: PS. I actually like The Five Doctors, the 20th Anniversary! Baker’s absence was deeply felt and crudely justified, and with that budget the serial couldn’t live up to its promise, but oh well… that’s nothing new for this show! The Three Doctor ten years earlier was better executed, but I admire the 20th’s ambition.

      I remember at that time, we all talked about how much we liked it. (This was pre-Internet, or at least mass-internet: geeks with modems could access a very crude version within, say, one University, but that was it.) However: it really felt like we were trying to like it.

      In retrospect, what the show needed to do then was use the 20th to launch from 1960’s TV to 1980’s TV. 1960’s TV was dominated by “plot-driven” shows, in which some older white male figure (the father, the cop, the doctor, the lawyer) always solved everything with his god-given wisdom. The Doctor did the same, but with somewhat crazier problems. By the 1980’s, the father/cop/doctor/lawyer couldn’t handle all of the problems, and he often had problems himself with drinking, a bad marriage, etc. Heck, sometimes he was even a she! However, Doctor Who plodded on: sure, the effects were better (only 5 years behind the times, not 10!), but most of the stories in the 1980’s could have been done with Pat Troughton in 1968.

      One thing that the New Series did was convert the Doctor from a Hero to a Protagonist. Basically, it’s like Aragorn became Jon Snow: yes, he still means well, but he has a LOT of baggage and a lot of regrets. That made it much more interesting to me.

      I’ve mentioned this before, but it was a Babylon 5 discussion group that put me onto Thrones ~20 years ago. B5 was one of the first SciFi shows to break the molds of Doctor Who and Star Trek by basically being a sociopolitical character drama set in space. The new Who, in turn, has a lot more B5 than “Classic Who” to it in many ways.

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    107. Ten Bears,

      100%. This is why I’ve always enjoyed Cersei. I understood her bitterness and anger in regards to being treated like a thing and never getting anything she would have if she’d been born male. You know. Minus the twincest. Show Cersei is far more human and realistic, book Cersei a bit more of a caricature, but it still made perfect sense.

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    108. Nuncle Kingsmoot: Minus the twincest. Show Cersei is far more human and realistic, book Cersei a bit more of a caricature, but it still made perfect sense.

      A possible problem with judging Book!Cersei is that she’s starting to become unglued by the time she becomes a PoV character. We get most of her development through two characters (Tyrion & Sansa) that dislike her intensely. So, it’s not even as much as we get on the show: we are getting two people describing what is being shown, one through a haze of bitterness and the other in a haze of confusion. And the rest of her development comes through Jaime, who basically sees her through rose colored glasses with a very outdated prescription.

      Obviously, Cersei is not a genius in the mind of anybody other than herself. However, just how much her thinking changes from Game of Thrones to Feast for Crows is difficult to ascertain given that we get only 3rd hand and very subjective assessments of it. Cersei killing all of Robert’s bastards comes across as stupid as well as spiteful: but if there were other reasons for it, then it was not clear at the time. (Crows suggests that it was just petty spite and foolish inability to control that spite.)

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    109. Wimsey:
      So, although I think Moffat was great for the show, I also think that it’s time for someone new to take over.Hopefully it will get me hooked again!But, here it is 3+ years later, and every time I watch the show, I can only think “I miss Matt Smith…..”

      Yep. Me too. I think Matt’s Eleventh is the finest Doctor since Baker’s Fourth; The Eleventh-Amy Doctor-Companion combo revitalized my love for the franchise after many years of waning interest (indeed, since the Sarah Jane days…)

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    110. Wimsey,

      I assumed she had Robert’s bastards killed as they were threats to her childrens’ position as heirs. If they all died (as per Maggy’s prophesy) one of the bastards would be next in line and she didn’t want to give up Lannister control. However it’s been a while since I read the books so none of it is fresh in my mind.
      I don’t disagree with your assessment regarding her overconfidence in her scheming skills, or about her POV. But when she does get around to describing being treated as chattel and forced to marry and sleep with someone she didn’t love, I could definitely empathize. However she was always a rotten, mean, spoiled brat for as long as we’ve known her. If their mother hadn’t died, perhaps she’d have turned out differently. But she blamed Tyrion for her death and abused him, even as an infant.
      Anyway, I enjoy her as an antagonist because I can understand her motivations. Lena Heady improves the character by how much she delights in being bad. I generally don’t compare the books to the show because they are different mediums, and the show has had the benefit of time, a writing staff and a major obsessive fandom to make positive changes.

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    111. Nuncle Kingsmoot,

      Cersei Revisited (cont.)

      • First of all, I blame Cersei’s hateful father Tywin for instilling in her the notion “He [Tyrion] killed my mother”, as Oberyn described little girl Cersei in his “I will be your champion” speech.
      An impressionable little girl can be taught to love a slightly different little baby – or to hate him as a murderous monster who killed her mother.

      • Let’s keep in mind that [on the show, at least] we’re seeing Cersei 17 years after some of the key events shaping her adult life occurred; after 17 years of public and private humiliation and neglect by manwhore Robert.
      Season 1 gives us a few glimpses of “what could have been” if Robert hadn’t been such a jerk.

      • [Excerpts re: Cersei, Robert and Lyanna: S1E5, E7]:

      • From S1e5 Robert & Cersei talk about their 17-year marriage and Lyanna

      Robert: …Sometimes I don’t know what holds it [the realm] together.

      Cersei: Our marriage. [Robert bursts out laughing; Cersei starts laughing too.]

      Robert: Ah, so here we sit, seventeen years later, holding it all together. Don’t you get tired?

      Cersei: Every day.

      Robert : How long can hate hold a thing together?

      Cersei: Well, seventeen years is quite a long time.

      Robert: Yes, it is.

      Cersei: Yes, it is…
      What was she like?

      Robert: You’ve never asked about her, not once. Why not?

      Cersei: At first, just saying her name, even in private felt like I was breathing life back into her. I thought if I didn’t talk about her, she’d just fade away for you. When I realized that wasn’t going to happen, I refused to ask out of spite. I didn’t want to give you the satisfaction of thinking I cared enough to ask. And eventually it became clear that my spite didn’t mean anything to you, as far as I could tell, you actually enjoyed it.

      Robert: So why now?

      Cersei: What harm could Lyanna Stark’s ghost do to either of us that we haven’t done to each other a hundred times over?

      Robert: You want to know the horrible truth? I can’t even remember what she looked like. I only know she was the one thing I ever wanted. Someone took her away from me, and Seven Kingdoms couldn’t fill the hole she left behind.

      Cersei: I felt something for you once, you know?

      Robert: I know.

      Cersei: Even after we lost our first boy — for quite a while, actually. Was it ever possible for us? Was there ever a time, ever a … moment?

      Robert: No. Does that make you feel better or worse?

      Cersei: It doesn’t make me feel anything.

      ———–
      •. From S1e7, Cersei and Ned talk about Robert and Lyanna

      Cersei. … In the rare event that Robert leaves his whores for long enough to stumble drunk into my bed, I finish him off in other ways. In the morning, he doesn’t remember.

      Ned: You’ve always hated him.

      Cersei: Hated him? I worshipped him. Every girl in the Seven Kingdoms dreamed of him, but he was mine by oath. And when I finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life.
      Then that night he crawled on top of me, stinking of wine and did what he did –what little he could do — and whispered in my ear, “Lyanna.”
      Your sister was a corpse and I was a living girl and he loved her more than me.
      ————

      • That last line always got to me. Hard to not feel sympathy for her after that – and Robert’s antics at the WF banquet feast in S1E1 making out with a waitress right in front of Cersei and all of the Starks.

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    112. Nuncle Kingsmoot: I assumed she had Robert’s bastards killed as they were threats to her childrens’ position as heirs. If they all died (as per Maggy’s prophesy) one of the bastards would be next in line and she didn’t want to give up Lannister control.

      None of Robert’s bastards were in the line of succession. If Cersei’s children died, then Stannis was next in line. Following him, it would have been a minor constitutional crisis: some people might have acknowledged Shireen, but most would have acknowledged Renley. Shireen would have the double strikes against her of being a woman and having grayscale, so although the Florents and some sticklers for some readings of the law would have sided with Shireen, most of the realm would have wanted Renly. And if both Shireen and Renley were out of the picture, then Robert’s next heir is… Jaime!

      Bastards do not enter into successions unless they are first acknowledged and then legitimized. Robert only acknowledged two of his bastards, one of who was in Stannis’ household, and the other of whom was in the Vale. The latter was a woman, too. Roberts other bastards, such as Gendry, were never acknowledged by Robert, and thus even if they were somehow declared legitimate, then they still were fatherless.

      The upshot of this is that Cersei was not removing them to get them out of the way of the succession. Presumably, she was having them killed so that nobody could work out that all of Robert’s children had black hair, which could lead them to deduce that Joffery was not Robert’s son. It is not clear if Show!Joffery did it for the same reasons: Show!Joffery obviously became aware of the allegations, but I do not recall if that was before or after he ordered his (supposed!) half-siblings slain.

      (This is the big problem with the “Gendry is now heir to House Baratheon!” idea; although people would consider him a plausible bastard of Robert’s, some distant cousin from a noble house a la Matthew Crowley would be accepted as the Baratheon heir.)

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    113. George: I think Matt’s Eleventh is the finest Doctor since Baker’s Fourth; The Eleventh-Amy Doctor-Companion combo revitalized my love for the franchise after many years of waning interest (indeed, since the Sarah Jane days…)

      Many “years”? At that point, it would have been multiple decades!

      I must admit, I got a small tear in my eye when Tom made his cameo in the 50th special. A very small and manly tear, mind you.

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    114. Wimsey,

      Quick, off-topic question about Dr. Who:

      I’d never watched Dr. Who until the Maisie Williams 4-episode arc (concluding with what someone called the same-sex ship that launched a thousand fanfics). I checked out some other episodes and saw a few I really liked, including “Blink” with a young Carey Mulligan and “The Girl in the Fireplace”, but kind of lost interest after silly episodes with a diet drug (I think) causing people to spawn an army of miniature Pillsbury dough boys marching down the street; a shrewish alien hag infecting people’s brains via TV sets; and one too many cheesy Daleks reminding me of the ’60s robot from Lost in Space (“Danger Will Robinson!”).

      I have BBC America in my cable lineup. It shows Dr. Who reruns all the time. Are there any really outstanding episodes you’d recommend ?

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    115. Wimsey: Many “years”?At that point, it would have been multiple decades!

      Yes, indeed. I’m not exactly a young man…in age I’m closer to that OTHER George.

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    116. Ten Bears:
      Wimsey,

      Quick, off-topic question about Dr. Who:

      I’d never watched Dr. Who until the Maisie Williams 4-episode arc (concluding with what someone called the same-sex ship that launched a thousand fanfics). I checked out some other episodes and saw a few I really liked, including “Blink” with a young Carey Mulligan and “The Girl in the Fireplace”, but kind of lost interest after silly episodes with a diet drug (I think) causing people to spawn an army of miniature Pillsbury dough boys marching down the street; a shrewish alien hag infecting people’s brains via TV sets; and one too many cheesy Daleks reminding me of the ’60s robot from Lost in Space (“Danger Will Robinson!”).

      I have BBC America in my cable lineup. It shows Dr. Who reruns all the time. Are there any really outstanding episodes you’d recommend ?

      If you like Blink and The Girl in the Fireplace (both written by Steven Moffat, also of Sherlock fame), you may enjoy Moffat-era Dr Who…try season 5’s The Eleventh Hour, The Time of Angels, Vincent and the Doctor and The Big Bang and see how you like it. Indeed, the whole Amy Pond arc in the show is kinda, sorta “The Girl in the Fireplace” in concept but extended into several seasons rather than a single hour. The Day of the Doctor, which features John Hurt playing a previously unknown version of the Doctor is also quite good.

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    117. George,

      Hey thanks ! I did see “Vincent and the Doctor” – that one was good, especially when they transported VVG to a museum in the future.

      I’ll check out the other ones you recommended. (Not sure what episodes comprise “the Amy Pond” arc though.)

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    118. Ten Bears,

      Off of the top of my head, and restricted to the modern era:
      The Girl in the Fireplace
      The Doctor’s Wife
      A Christmas Carol
      Blink (although the Doctor is barely in it!)
      Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead
      The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
      Dalek
      Vincent and the Doctor
      The Time of Angels/Flesh & Stone
      School Reunion (although this is much more powerful if you watched the old series)
      Human Nature/The Family of Blood

      I excluded from this a lot of really good Matt Smith episodes that are parts of the big arcs. Basically, those episodes lose a lot of their impact if you have do not watch them together. The River Song arc in particular was really good.

      For the old series, well, it gets tough because, quite frankly, it’s dated. However, ones that (might) still work today include:
      Tomb of the Cybermen
      Genesis of the Daleks
      The Deadly Assassin
      The Curse of Fenric.

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    119. Pigeon,

      have you Read any of the books? I like him so much more because he seems to care less about that cunt! Wish it was that way in the show, sigh…..

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    120. Ten Bears:
      George,

      Hey thanks ! I did see “Vincent and the Doctor” – that one was good, especially when they transported VVG to a museum in the future.

      I’ll check out the other ones you recommended. (Not sure what episodes comprise “the Amy Pond” arc though.)

      5.01 “The Eleventh Hour” all the way through 7.05 “The Angels take Manhattan”

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    121. Tmoser:
      Pigeon,

      have you Read any of the books? I like him so much more because he seems to care less about that cunt! Wish it was that way in the show, sigh…..

      I was waiting for it to happen similarly to the books last season while he was gone and her trial was on…but no. Then his ‘look’ upon returning to King’s Landing, viewing with Bronn from afar, I thought “Aha!”. But no. I think I have lost a good chunk of my belief that there will ever be a real break there. It’s frustrating as hell to me, but perhaps there is still a method to the madness – after all, I don’t know how it will ultimately go down. I hear ya!

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    122. Does everyone else have to await moderation when replying to a comment, because I seem to always get that lately, and they don’t tend to ever be posted, and then I look like I’m ignoring people. Perhaps I am caught in a swirling vortex of the interwebs. A tardis would be cooler.

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    123. Pigeon,

      You’re not alone. A few of mine have been arbitrarily diverted to moderation purgatory, or marked as “spam.” (I’m not being critical of the administrators. I’m sure the site has anti-spam, anti-bot algorithms that flag innocuous posts now and then.)

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    124. Pigeon,

      Why should there ever be a definite, public, permanent break between Jaime and Cersie? Because Jaime is supposed to be on a redemption arc and splitting from Cersie would be required? Officially, they are only siblings supporting the Lannister cause. Public splitting would confirm the rumor that they are lovers.

      She already has distanced herself from him by her actions. She wants him when she wants him, otherwise he can keep to himself. He has distanced himself by going to war/diplomacy and taking on responsibilities. They are now apart in their own mental worlds.

      One or both may die, but not necessarily by each other’s hand.

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    125. Marlana: ecause Jaime is supposed to be on a redemption arc and splitting from Cersie would be required?

      Who says that Jaime is on a redemption arc? This really is not that type of story. SoI&F is a very athematic tale. GRRM is not trying to convey any messages about “right” or “wrong” or anything akin to that: and without that, you really cannot have a redemption arc.

      Jaime is a character who is basically growing a colloquial soul. His big contribution to the “kill the child, let the adult be born” story is his setting out to prove that he is Tywin the Second, but instead proving that his father was (figuratively) correct: Jaime is no son of Tywin’s! Jaime has been becoming a much more empathetic character: but, as Jon, Daeny and Tyrion all experience, empathy is no ticket to Instant Karma.

      At any rate, Jaime should continue to evolve, but he will not metamorphose. His emotional attachment to Cersei is very deep and it will not go away entirely.

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    126. Wimsey: Who says that Jaime is on a redemption arc?

      Posters here have stated that GRRM said that Jaime’s character is on a redemptive arc and that Jaime’s character will be used to explore the concept of redemption.

      I do not agree that Jaime’s life story will be one of redemption, or that his relationship to Cersei is by definition something he needs to redeem himself for. While his co-dependency with Cersei started at birth and is strong, I think he will continue to separate from Cersei and carve a more independent future. I do not think Jaime needs to sacrifice himself to atone for Cersei.

      Most of Jaime’s other acts that violate contemporary sensibilities are not crimes in Westeros. And for those acts sanctioned in Westeros, he is still alive even though a kingslayer. In Westeros, rather than atoning of one’s own volition, individuals suffer torture and death as the result of other’s vengeance.

      I think redemption is another expectation that GRRM will thwart.

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    127. Marlana,

      If I remember correctly, then GRRM has said that Jaime is in search of redemption. That is different from being on a redemptive arc. The latter would require some thematic “right” and/or “wrong” concepts to pervade through the story(ies): and there really are none here. The former is entirely subjective: two people with different moralities not only might seek to redeem themselves for different sins, but they might actually do the opposite: Person A atones for Deed X by doing Deed Y, and Person B atones for doing Deed Y by doing Deed X.

      In this case, we probably are going to see persons A & B merged into one: Jaime. Jaime setting out with the intention of being Tywin II and showing the world that he could be as merciless as anybody else was Jaime seeking redemption for having failed his father. However, because Jaime is basically gaining a degree of empathy, he is getting conflicting ideas on what redeeming himself would even mean. Making up for his failings to his father and making up for his other deeds are going to be mutually contradictory. So, what we are probably going to see throughout is that Jaime will find that to redeem himself in his own mind in one way, he’ll have to disgrace himself in his own mind in another way.

      This also is why he probably will not separate completely from Cersei. It seems that in their weird, twisted view, Jaime & Cersei both view their relationship as somehow honoring the Lannister family name. They are, like the Targaryens, keeping the blood line pure. That honors Tywin (not that he’d agree, but….). On the other hand, if Cersei’s sanity continues to deteriorate, then he might come to realize that she threatens the Lannister legacy. So, redemption comes at the cost of disgrace either way.

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    128. I’m thinking of Gendry. Just think about this: Gendry is the bastard son of Robert Baratheon, didn’t appear for SEASONS

      and suddenly now appears. What for? To take his rightful place on the Iron Throne. But how? He’s been seen on the same sets as Daenerys, Jon, Davos, Tyrion and company. Does that have anything to do with the plot? Of course! Can Gendry take the Iron Throne (either by being recognised as a true Baratheon or by marrying Cersei so Jaime can kill her)? Yes! I’m pretty sure they will see to it.

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