Michiel Huisman weighs in on Game of Thrones finale and teases Daario’s return

daario

Many of us assumed that we’d seen the last of Daario Naharis at the end of season 6. Then, some of us speculated that he might sail back onto the screen with the Golden Company in season 8. Actor Michiel Huisman recently spoke about Game of Thrones and offered some clues as whether or not we can expect a Daario return next season.

In an interview with Digital Spy, Huisman said, “I can’t wait to see the finale! I don’t know what to say. I shouldn’t spoil anything so I’m not gonna tell you.”

This reluctance could indicate that “The Winds of Winter” wasn’t truly the end of Daario’s involvement on Game of Thrones. Alas, HBO keeps its actors on a very tight leash, spoilers-wise. So, Huisman offered no more details about season 8, if he truly has any. He did, however, speak highly of his experience on the show.

“I learned a lot,” he said. “It created so many opportunities that otherwise might have taken a lot longer. Like being part of [Neflix’s original series The Haunting of Hill House].

We know the Golden Company will play an important role in season 8, given that Cersei hired them at the end of last season and their commander was cast. So, will Daario abandon Meereen and infiltrate this mercenary company for her queen? Or will he stay back as ordered, and we’ll never see him again? Tell us what you think below!

239 responses

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    1. This may sound unkind, but I’m having a hard time thinking of a character I’ll miss less than Daario if he doesn’t come back. No shade on the actor, particularly, but the character just seemed to me like filler for Dany’s storyline while she was parked in Meereen for so long. And maybe somebody for Jorah to scowl at, after he and Tyrion parted ways. Sorry, Mr. Huisman.

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    2. I interpret that quote a bit differently.

      I think Huisman is stating that by saying “yes or no” when asked about his return, it would be a spoiler.
      So he may not have any spoilers about the final season besides knowing his character doesn’t or does return.

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    3. COME BACK DAARIO!!

      I miss your woke statements telling the audience who Dany really is.

      “You’re a conqueror.”
      “You weren’t made to sit on a chair.”
      “Everyone’s too afraid of you to speak the truth. Everyone but me.”
      “A dragon queen without dragons is not a queen.”
      “I pity the Lords of Westeros. They have no idea what’s coming for them.”

      I enjoyed Daario and his rivalry with Jorah.

      Also please for the love of god give us something that distinguishes Jon from those guys. Jon is starting to act just like them and it’s treading on character assassination.

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    4. Firannion,

      I agree. I have no desire to see Daario again and it seems pointless to bring him back now. They could force it with some GC thing, but why? I believe Dormer said some things about maybe knowing what’s going to happen as well. I doubt Margaery will be making a return. 😛

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    5. I think we have said goodbye to Daario for good in Season 6.
      That he might know the story of season finale doesn’t mean he is in it. They have made friends while in GOT, so it’s not surprising at all that he might know the finale.

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    6. The easy thing would be for him to come back leading the GC (ruling mereen was booooooring) and conveniently flipping the GC for Dany. One would assume they need a face to lead the golden company- somebody has to tell the elephants which way to run.
      I hope that doesn’t happen tho. That would be far too lazy. And his character sucks, IMO.

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    7. While I’m not overly attached to Daario…for closure’s sake especially I would like to see him again, and I’m sure there are ways we could. I wouldn’t be horribly broken up about it if we didn’t. He’s one of those “maybe, maybe not” characters. Although frankly, I still can’t get over his sudden appearance change and how we were just supposed to accept that like nothing happened. Is he a Faceless Man too? ;p

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    8. Shelle:
      While I’m not overly attached to Daario…for closure’s sake especially I would like to see him again, and I’m sure there are ways we could. I wouldn’t be horribly broken up about it if we didn’t. He’s one of those “maybe, maybe not” characters. Although frankly, I still can’t get over his sudden appearance change and how we were just supposed to accept that like nothing happened. Is he a Faceless Man too? ;p

      Well at least he didn’t get 20 years younger like the Mountain…and those Lannister kids all changed faces too. 😜 Plus, Ed Skrein looked a bit too Tolkien universe, ha! 😆

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    9. MMJ,

      How the hell does Jon act similarly to Daario in any capacity? I won’t believe you’re watching the same show as any of us. I’m sorry.

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    10. Pigeon: Well at least he didn’t get 20 years younger like the Mountain…and those Lannister kids all changed faces too. Plus, Ed Skrein looked a bit too Tolkien universe, ha!

      LOL!
      I still cannot believe that Thor is younger than me. @_@
      The Mountains were more similar-looking and didn’t jar me as much, though I did notice on my second time through the show. Guess they couldn’t find an actor who resembled Ed and was good enough for the part…

      Edward:
      MMJ,

      How the hell does Jon act similarly to Daario in any capacity? I won’t believe you’re watching the same show as any of us. I’m sorry.

      Seriously! What?!?

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    11. Shelle: LOL!
      I still cannot believe that Thor is younger than me. @_@

      Me too!!! It’s the massive weight and muscle gain…photos of him from just a few years ago, he looks like a (tall) kid. It’s really bizarre. I guess it works for being Sandor’s ‘older’ brother. 😂

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    12. Bad enough Uncle Benjen got a two-second send-off. Please! No Daario. No time.

      Every available minute should be reserved for…

      ASNAWP!

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    13. MMJ,

      When men get in the same room as Daenerys they are magically brainwashed into worshipfully following her. At least Daario did stand up to Dany, which makes him superior to what Jon has turned into in Season 7. (Yes, Your Grace… How high should I jump, Your Grace. I’m only an unworthy servant unfit to be in your presence, Your Grace.)

      On the one hand, Daario coming back is really unnecessary. On the other hand, if he does, perhaps the show will have an ending where Daenerys goes back to Meereen with her favorite boy toy and leaves the North and the Starks alone.

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    14. Some Very Striking Differences between Daario and Jon:

      My Queen.
      Daario calls her his queen.
      Jon does too but it’s a main character saying it now.

      Timing.
      Daario bent the knee right away, so he was only her fuck toy.
      Jon bent the knee much later, so now Dany is in love.

      Actual Knee Bending.
      Daario puts the knees to the floor to show his loyalty.
      Jon prefers the verbal approach.

      Gifts.
      Daario gives her the heads of her enemies.
      Jon gives her half of Westeros.

      Consort Policy.
      Dany breaks up with Daario because she can’t have a consort in Westeros.
      Dany hooks up with Jon and has a consort in Westeros.

      Wants.
      Daario doesn’t want a crown, he wants Dany.
      Jon doesn’t want a crown, he wants Dany. . . oh, and to defeat the WW.

      Burning Attraction.
      Daario knows Dany burns people alive and doesn’t care.
      Jon suspected Dany burned people alive, looked troubled for about 20 seconds, but she saved him so now he doesn’t care.

      Specialness.
      Daario’s mother was a prostitute so he has filthy ordinary commoner’s blood.
      Jon thinks he has filthy ordinary commoner’s blood, but his Targaryen blood makes him special like Dany (though not as special as her – poor schlub is only a half-breed!).

      Elements.
      Daario is not ice.
      Jon is!

      Booty Call.
      Daario enters Dany’s chambers without permission.
      Jon knocks first.

      Missions.
      Daario goes on missions in Meereen to serve her.
      Jon goes on missions north of the Wall to serve her.

      Trophies.
      Daario is not a major hero of the story and cannot be Dany’s trophy husband.
      Jon is and can be.

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    15. I think it would’ve been far more interesting to bring Daario to Westeros and have him provide some sort of conflict in his attempt to win over Dany. Maybe even try to kill John or come up with some plot. Maybe would’ve worked better if Ed Skrein had come back, his Daario seemed like it had the potential to be far more conniving than Michele.

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    16. Zaddy,

      Is that some sort of if you hate Daenerys you must a red pill type inference? Because I’m a woman. And I don’t see what liking or disliking a fictional character has to do with modern feminism.

      I find Daenerys as a character off-putting because she always gets hell-yeah awesome moments and always gets whatever she wants. She isn’t “sacrificing” anything by going to the North. She gets Jon as her docile mistress, her crown (after he ceded the North to her), and probably her incest baby. If Dany was growing as a character, she would have rejected Jon’s fealty pledge. If she unselfishly cedes her claim on the North or even willingly supports Jon’s superior claim to the IT over hers, then I will concede character growth. This, however, isn’t going to happen given the dynamics of Season 7; Jon is only there as another one of Daenerys’ trophies. So I will continue to see her as a spoiled rich girl.

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    17. got_tv_fan,

      Maybe I’m an idiot. I still cannot understand why Jon “bent the knee” after Dany had already agreed to team up with him to fight the NK with no strings attached. Before he left WF even his staunchest supporters were wary about him dealing personally with the Mad King’s daughter. When he arrived at Dragonstone, he was adamant that “his people” would not accept her as a ruler. His people had made him king as part of reclaiming the North’s sovereignty.

      Most significantly, he had already accomplished both objectives of his mission: (1) Locate and mine dragonglass; and (2) Enlist Dany and her army and air force to help fight the AotD.

      Sansa’s exasperated reaction to Jon’s ravengram advising that he’d bent the knee and was now Queen Silverhair’s Warden of the North – without telling anyone in advance – will mirror the reactions of the Northern Lords. I’ll bet Lord Weathervane Glover will get bent out of shape, tell him he’s an idiot just like Robb, and call him “The King Who Lost the North II after taking up with a foreign whore.”

      I guess what I don’t understand is why he didn’t wait until he got back to WF; let Dany put on a dog and pony show (well, a dragon and horselord show) for the Northerners, and then announce his proposal to accept her as queen.

      Babbling in bed aboard ship about how he was confident his people would appreciate who she really is made him sound like a lovesick deluded dummy. And that confidence would have been fine – if he hadn’t prematurely surrendered his kingship for no good reason.

      If someone with half a brain like Davos were advising him, he’d tell Jon to let Dany impress the Northerners by addressing them at WF and presenting the powerful army and dragons she was willing to devote to the North’s defense…and maybe then, after gauging his people’s response, bring up the knee bending, demotion to Warden stuff.

      Jon has already gotten himself in deep sh*t several times – and killed once before – for unilaterally making a controversial decision without “selling” it first. I wouldn’t be surprised to see blue-eyed blue-faced Wight Olly show up and stab him again “for the North!”).

      He needs a good PR team – and a way to stop making impulsive political decisions guided more by his Johnson than practical realities.

      So now he’s headed home to confront what will undoubtedly be a waiting clusterf*ck of dissension. And it was all unnecessary. If he were so sure his people would be enamored with Dany, let her charm them first.

      Or better yet, they had a built-in team of surrogates already in place with a great set of talking points: Jorah, Sandor, Davos, and Gendry, who could regale the audience with the tale of their rescue by the Heroine of the Frozen Lake. (Yes, I know Jorah’s technically a fugitive, but… that voice! He could sell ice cubes to the NK with that voice.) Jon could then add his two cents about Dany’s bravery – and sacrifice – when it would’ve been all too easy and justifiable for her to take Tyrion’s advice and “do nothing.”

      I’m sorry. I completely understood Jon’s logic in early S7 when he rejected Dany’s request/demand to abdicate his kingship and subjugate the North to her (non-existent, yet-to-be-established) monarchy. That Jon was a true representative of his people. Even when he started perving on Dany around the time of the DG cave art show, he still didn’t betray his people’s wishes.

      I just don’t understand his thinking. Sure, Dany’s decision to come to the rescue of the Snow Patrol was a game-changer. So why not return to WF the way he left – as King in the North – but with a sh*tload of dragonglass, fire-breathing dragons, thousands of professional soldiers to reinforce the ten-year old kids who’ve been in training, and a dragon queen who proved her good faith by her unselfish deeds – and use all that as an argument to persuade the North support an alliance? The knee-bending crap couid come later; by the time of Jon & Dany’s post-Frozen Lake stateroom chat, she wasn’t even harping on that anymore. I didn’t hear her usual screed about being born to ruie the 7K and claiming the Iron Throne. She was singlemindedly focused on defeating the NK, “together.”

      The King in the North had accomplished every objective on his agenda when he embarked on his risky mission in S7e2. He could be and should be on his way back to WF to a hero’s welcome. Instead, he’s likely to be derided as a silver pu**y-whipped moron.

      (But hey… that’s why we need the Dynamic Duo aka Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess + Lady of Winterfell to keep the Northern Lords in line, whether by gentle persuasion or fear of jugular-slicing 👸🏻)

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    18. MMJ,

      I like your Comparison Chart!
      It reminds me of a time some years ago when my sister was trying to choose between two potential suitors. On paper, Jon comes out ahead I suppose.

      I do not want to see Daario return. However, I always liked his little speech after Dany told him there were plenty of women for him in Mereen. but he told her there is only one he wanted.

      Then he heard those sweet, sweet words that every man wants to hear:

      “Do what you do best. Take off your clothes.”

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    19. I feel he is trolling us here, I just don’t see Daario coming back into the story. He’s such a minor character and even if he returns with the Golden company I don’t see how he would add to the story, unless it’s to be some love struck rogue who convinces a group of mercenaries to betray Cersei (who is paying them well) to support Dany who is now allegedly in love with someone else. That scenario doesn’t fit within the story for me.

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    20. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      I like your Battle of the Boytoys idea, but I think it would’ve been appropriate last season. With six episodes left, it would be an unwelcome distraction at this point.

      If anything, I could see Daario showing up for an Uncle Benjen-length cameo, maybe as a Golden Company member who convinces his fellow mercenaries to switch sides from The Mother of Madness to The Mother of Dragons.

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    21. Jon Snowed,

      Crap. I just saw your 10:53 am comment after posting mine at 11:07 am. You said what I said before I did. I guess we’re on the same wavelength (ie, Daario showing up briefly to convince GC to switch sides).

      F*ck it. Instead of bringing back Daario they should bring back Wight Karsi.

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    22. He couldn’t have spoilers to conceal unless he has scripts, and I don’t think he’d have scripts unless he’s in the last season.

      Daario has been Dany’s champion from the start when he thwarted a plot to execute her. I hope he’ll play that role for her again. I enjoy his character on the show and he’s sort of an enigma in that he claims to be driven by love and beauty while being extremely violent and wearing shabby armor.

      If and when he returns, I hope it illustrates to Dany how Tyrion effectively separated her from a protector.

      Fingers crossed that he’ll return in season 8.

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    23. Ten Bears,

      I agree. The major issue I have with the whole fealty pledge is it was done after Daenerys already pledged her armies to the cause. It would have been one thing for Jon to kneel if she was threatening to execute him or if she was continuing to withhold support, but that isn’t want happened. Jon knelt no strings attached. He didn’t get any additional concessions for his fealty even. He has nothing to show for his fealty and it is going to cause him problems not just with Sansa and Lord Weathervane, but also with Lyanna Mormont who was willing to throw shade at Stannis when he demanded she bend a knee. It also made it impossible for him to act as a neutral party between Cersei and Daenerys and to negotiate a truce to fight the White Walkers. There is no advantage to Cersei helping the North now that Jon has publicly declared that he wants her to be overthrown and basically killed. It looks like Jon did it because he is infatuated with Daenerys rather than for reasonable political or strategic reasons. Oh and Jon seems not to care about the fact that the woman he pledged the North to burns POWs alive.

      I know that Sansa fans think that Jon is seducing Daenerys for political reasons, but I don’t think this is the fact. The showrunners have just decided good = dumb. For instance, Liam Cunningham has mentioned on more than one occasion that Kit Harington filmed the Jon speech in the DP the day after the US election in 2016, which suggests the show thinks it is some sort of profound statement of moral leadership rather than how most fans saw it – as a boneheaded political misstep. This is disappointing because in the books and earlier seasons of the show, good characters like Davos and Tyrion were allowed to play politics and do morally ambiguous things.

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    24. MMJ,

      Ok, but the fact Jon took a while to submit to Dany might suggest his devotion to duty, rather than to love. He is Ned’s son, after all. It was Ned’s devotion to the establishment that caused him to head south to his death rather than staying north and investigating the rumours north of the wall.

      Duty just might be Jon’s first love and he might break Dany’s heart over it, not unlike how he broke Igrid’s heart.

      Daario, on the other hand, wants nothing else in the world but Dany. I don’t see him going after wealth. He’s not pursuing women. He’s not into fine clothes(see his ratty armor). And I don’t see Daario pursuing power. He might seem like a “fuck boy”, but maybe there’s more to him than meets the eye… a romantic heart, maybe?

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    25. got_tv_fan: I find Daenerys as a character off-putting because she always gets hell-yeah awesome moments and always gets whatever she wants.

      I think we’ve gotten the point. You like Jon and don’t like Daenerys. For some reason the scene joke popped in my head from Family Guy Star Wars where they meet to discuss plans about attacking the Death Star. Peter (Han) says, “Hey look, there’s a second woman in the universe!” Without even meeting her Lois (Leia) grumbles and says, “I don’t like her.” 😛

      Jon AND Daenerys are THE main characters in this story. Yes she gets cool moments. She has dragons. I’m pretty sure she’ll get to do some cool shit with them in the books too. Jon has had his fair share of great moments as well. They eliminated any of his warging abilities so he’s kind of limited to ‘normal’ kinds of action though isn’t he. How about we wait to see how their pairing moves forward and through the climax of the story before getting all twisted over little things that are steps towards that end??

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    26. MMJ:
      COME BACK DAARIO!!

      I miss your woke statements telling the audience who Dany really is.

      “You’re a conqueror.”
      “You weren’t made to sit on a chair.”
      “Everyone’s too afraid of you to speak the truth. Everyone but me.”
      “A dragon queen without dragons is not a queen.”
      “I pity the Lords of Westeros. They have no idea what’s coming for them.”

      I enjoyed Daario and his rivalry with Jorah.

      Also please for the love of god give us something that distinguishes Jon from those guys. Jon is starting to act just like them and it’s treading on character assassination.

      You remind me of how Daario is a counterpoint to all those knights with their high ideals. Good thing he didn’t listen to Jorah about not taking a weapon into Vaes Dothrak. Daario reminds Dany that sometimes you have to ignore advice. His character is really insightful about hers and he is the one who told her that all leaders are either “butchers or meat”.

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    27. Clob,

      First, Jon and Dany aren’t the only important characters in the world. That would come as a surprise to fans of the Lannisters or the Starks. Sansa and Arya, for instance, both have very active fanbases. Second, I was ambivalent to Daenerys until Season 7 when she took over the entire show because the showrunners wanted emphasize Daenerys’ all around girl power awesomeness. Jon is the main character ruined by this (although Tyrion has been relegated to funny dwarf sidekick as well.) Jon really doesn’t get any moments of awesomeness. Instead, he manages to make error after error and show no abilities as a leader, military strategist, politician, etc. He actually has been relegated to Daario 2.0, a sellsword in the service of Daenerys. And I doubt that Season 8 is going to rectify this situation unless they do a 180. I don’t think that Jon can be redeemed as a character after the Season 7 debacle, especially boneheaded moves like the DP speech. The showrunners have shown their cards and they really only see Jon as an obedient and loyal servant of Queen Daenerys rather than a main character in his own right.

      And I’d love spoilers about Season 8, which would prove me wrong. But there has been nothing to suggest that they plan to devote anytime to politics or strategy. It just seems like CGI battles. So I’m just going to assume that Jon remains nothing more than the “muscle”, who is just there to make bad decisions and wildly swing his sword at things.

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    28. got_tv_fan: First, Jon and Dany aren’t the only important characters in the world.

      I wrote that they’re THE main characters not that they’re the only important characters. There’s a difference there.

      You can go ahead and continue to slam Daenerys for your problems with Jon’s story if you want but it’s not like his character really did anything out of the ordinary from the rest of his story. He’s always done the things HE feels is right, whether each choice is the correct one or not.

      As I’ve mentioned in the past, I’m a fan of both characters for what they bring to the story. They’re not my favorite, which is ASNAWP, but I’m not going to continue to bash other characters because Arya’s Winterfell arc was garbage in S7. So Jon doesn’t get fantastically awesome moments, in your opinion, and that’s Daenerys’ fault, or the writing for her? This is what the story is though and will be in the books too, at least to a similar point the show is at. Daenerys will be flying around on dragons and Jon will be trying to gather support to fight the NK as a ‘normal’ person. They’re not balanced characters as far as cool action is concerned. I suppose D&D could have just kept the dragons off the screen for most of the series like Ghost. That sounds pretty mundane and boring for the show if you ask me. That would be a very large element to eliminate from a series that’s suppose to be of the high fantasy genre.

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    29. Clob,

      I know many Arya fans who are angry that she was reduced to a sellsword. And many are angry that Sansa diminished Arya. This is their right. (Arya’s arc in Season 7 was diminished to make Sansa look good BTW.) Fans have every right to be annoyed that their favorite character was given the short shrift so others could look awesome. In Jon’s case in Season 7, he was diminished so Daenerys could look good. This isn’t just about Dany getting to ride around on her dragons and be involved in cool action sequences. It also has to do with the lighting, dialogue, and direction, which emphasize Dany as the alpha ruler and Jon as her meek servant. She imprisons him and bullies him and rather than standing up to her, he docilely turns into her brainwashed servant by the end of the season. The biggest one for me is the whole bend a knee storyline. Why exactly does Jon have to give up the North again? Why can’t he remain Daenerys’ equal ruler and ally? As there is no reason for his servile posture at the end of the season, the only thing that I can think of is that the showrunners view Daenerys as the only hero and ruler.

      And sure, Jon can remain a normal person and be a cool character like Tyrion was in the earlier seasons. However, the writers won’t even write him as a competent military commander, politician, or administrator. It is really hard to gather support to fight the WW as a “normal person” if one cannot win a battle or come up with competent military strategies, one cannot even keep one’s own lords loyal, and one doesn’t understand basic politics.

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    30. Ah the issues of show Dany swallowing characters and turning them into her grupies. It happened to ser Jorah “friendzoned” Mormont. Who follows her like a lost puppy while in the books he is a man obsessed with a girl who very well could be his daughter and said obsession will be his downfall.

      Then there is Varys who has faded into the background since he went in search of Daenerys instead of the book Varys who has his own agenda and is playing his cards.

      Same with Tyrion. All his plots have ended in serving Dany while book Tyrion does what he has been doing the whole saga. Getting into shitty situations and surviving due to a combination of sheer luck and his wits. But the character has shifted. From trying to get recognizion of his family to seeking the Lannister downfall to reapy their kindness.

      Last season was Jon Snow turn. He was already the action man of the show. Now he is just the action man of Dany. Jaime called him Dany pet dog.

      And the problem with the show is that it falls into the trap that George tried to avoid when he sold the books rights. D&D have turned Jon and Dany into the main characters when in Georger´s words “they are only the 10% of the story”.

      And he is right. AFFC works whithout Jon and Dany. Cersei chapters where the best and the kingsmoot was epic.

      While in ADWD the wall storyline works thanks to all the backstabbing among the players (Boltons, Jon, Stannis, norther lords, Theon) Dany arc in Meereen is the weakest part that Martin´s himself has named the meereense knot.

      And that´s why I think he can´t end the books. He only has two books to make Daenerys going back to Meereen, cross Essos and then arrive at Westeros and make it work.

      Season 8 will be a dissapointment if it turned into Dany and Jon defeating evil Night King and evil Queen Cersei.

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    31. Eonwe:

      Season 8 will be a dissapointment if it turned into Dany and Jon defeating evil Night King and evil Queen Cersei.

      It won’t. There’s too much set up with Dany’s dark side for it to be simply nothing. Varys has been set up to be against her, as has Sam. Very likely the Stark sisters too.

      Jon’s parentage reveal will cause major problems. People like Sansa, Sam, Varys and others would much rather have Jon be the ruler instead of Dany.

      Also the amount of scenes that paint Dany as a shit ruler are many. She’s badass, brave and a cool conqueror but she cannot rule for crap. She’s set up for a tragic arc, which is likely the final Holy Shit moment imo, Dany doing something truly horrible.

      Jon bent the knee, but he’s going to learn in time that he’ll be a better ruler and make the choice, he WILL be king by the end and Dany will not be ruling. The show’s themes “any man who must say I am the king, is no true king” is huge, and who goes around having servants read off all her titles, who constantly says she’s the rightful ruler?

      And at the end of the day, they are using GRRM’s ending. Rest assured, Dany being this perfect character will soon come crashing down, we already saw cracks across the previous seasons, but when you have characters like Sam being against her, the Stark girls, reasonable people who aren’t mustache-twirling villains going against her, everyone will start to see the flaws, that have been covered up by the fact she’s only fought against the evilest scum possible so far.

      I have complete faith the show will do the ending justice, I really feel like you have nothing to fear. S7 wasn’t great, but it was a needed thing to get everything in place and we’ll see the results were worth it. I don’t think Dany will be this evil character suddenly, but her violent impulses have always been there and when she starts to lose her reasonable advisors to either death or alienation, she’ll start to act on them.

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    32. Jon Snowed,

      I fully agree: Daario comming back to save Dany’s day would be an impossible scenario and I don’t see it happening, too. However, Daario comming back to punish Dany for treating him as a disposable boy-toy would be something else entirely. Daario Naharis always has a choice, – that’s what he said when he first came to Dany’s tent after killing his superiors. And that was a well-calcullated decision: he knew that he was good at two things – fighting and women – and switching sides to Dany allowed him to capitalise on both of his skills. From the position of leuthenant he made a climb to the position of commander of the Second Sons, he also made his sellsword company a part of a much mor formidable force and he became queen’s lover. Moreover, he even proposed himself for marriage – she declined but Daario knew women and how to be persistent, so it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that he didn’t give up on this dream. The very least, he wanted to be her only lover and it never looked like Daario was all that indifferent to power or at least prestige: he wanted Dany as a price. And now, when he began to develop deeper feelings towards her, she dropped as a piece of garbage leaving him to babysit Meereen he never cared about! So, I am really looking forwards Daario appearing from nowhere at the moment of Dany’s absolut triumph and stabbing her Don Jose style (or at least something similar). Not that I want him to succeed but IMO Dany must pay for her deeds. And would make Daario a meaningful character. Otherwise, he would be just a filler indeed.

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    33. Prophecy from the books about dany:

      three treasons will you know… once for blood and once for gold and once for love…

      For blood can be tyrion or Jon. It can even be simpeler maybe it was Miri Maaz Dur.

      For gold. Maybe the jorah treason from the beginning or Xara xon doxos (I hope I wrote it right)

      For love. What if it is meant love for Dany herself. What if Daario will leave Mereen because he want to be with Dany. Him leaving Mereen can be seen as treason against Dany.

      About what I think will happen with Dany in season 8 I will write in next post because I try to think about what I think will happen.

      Edit: the importance of this can be simple. The fall of Mereen back into slavers hand can shape danys character and push her character into another direction. Dark, sad, depressed etc can be anything. At least she will feel as if she fail in anything.

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    34. got_tv_fan:
      Clob,

      (…) However, the writers won’t even write him as a competent military commander, politician, or administrator.It is really hard to gather support to fight the WW as a “normal person” if one cannot win a battle or come up with competent military strategies, one cannot even keep one’s own lords loyal, and one doesn’t understand basic politics.

      Jon has never been a genius of politics or strategy. that’s because he makes his decisions showing admirable moral standards, which are the opposite of good strategy or successful politics in the world he lives in. this didn’t come with Dany cutting off his balls or whatever. he has been like this all the time, and even on the few occasions his decisions were influenced by strategic foresight, reality fucked him hard and made good intentions result in desastrous events. see: Hardhome.

      love for his little brother Rickon made him forget about the battle plan against the Boltons, and guess what: when he simply (cough!) forgot to ask Ramsay’s ex-wife for some further information on his enemy, he was surely the bold commander some want him to be. result is known.

      Jon has never been portraied as a strategist or politician. he’s as good at calculating opponents’s strategies as a hippo is at ballet dancing. so i don’t see why he should become a good player of the big game.

      it’s been written by some that he should have bent the knee AFTER impressing the Northerners with Dany’s forces. good plan, but what does he get then? a bunch of followers who have been impressed. he had so many of them. without intending to do so, by bending the knee before Dany had to persuade the most stubborn Northerners with a display of her power he created a situation that is uncomfortable and even dangerous for him in the first place. many lords will turn their back on the weakling, servant and (insert half of your own words…)

      on the other side, the lords accepting his choice because it is HIS choice, might be the ones he can really trust. their loyalty needs no dragon flight show.

      i already had a bad feeling about those testosterone mad warrior lords screaming Robb Stark and later Jon into a position that has been gone for good reason. the North isn’t a kingdom anymore, and the saving of thousands of lives involved: a Stark and a Targaryen.

      what’s wrong with Jon repeating this submission to the second Targaryen conqueror who actually just wants to have back what’s been taken from her family? oh, and Jon’s family, of course, and this is a nice one. even if he has “the king who knelt” back in mind and thinks “wow, i’m repeating Stark history”, he’s actually avoiding another possible bloodbath in Tagaryen history without knowing.

      that’s worth a kneeling storyline. no matter what Jon and Dany make of it.

      a last one: “you’re part of the big game now. and the big game is scary.” something like that. Tyrion to Dany right after she quit Daario, if i don’t fuck with the timeline, right? (i demand a cookie for “nearly back on topic!” for mentioning Daario.)

      Dany is part of the big game. the one you win or die at. Jon is also part of a game, but his game is a much bigger one. he already died once playing it. until he get’s to know about his true parents, the game Dany plays is a minor one for him. so being a complete hippo on her chessboard should not scratch him too much as long as she even risks and sacrifices her children in order to keep him in his game.

      smart hippo!

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    35. Eonwe,

      That’s exactly what season 8 will be about…. how is that a disappointment if it’s been built up for years and years? The showdown with the AOTD isn’t some half-baked plot point that suddenly emerged in season 7. What else would season 8 even be about if it wasn’t going to be about dealing with the conflict of the Night King and Cersei?

      And I’ll respectdfully disagree with you about AFWC. It’s defunirely not a great book and splitting up the contents like that was a fool’s errand.

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    36. How Dany will end could be many possible ways. But I don’t think she will be the big hero that will sit on the Iron throne at the end. The words of Emilia is a given on that. But the big question is what does she meant with it.

      ‘It f***ed me up,’ she told Vanity Fair of her character’s last moments. ‘Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavour in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is… I’m doing all this weird shit. ‘You’ll know what I mean when you see it.’

      And ending where she’s the big hero is not something I would link to that statement. And if I’m remember correctly, Emilia told in another interview she hope that fans still like her at the end of season 8. And maybe what will happen to her is in fact the famous statement of many castmembers that not everyone will like the ending.

      What could it be that will happen in season 8 I write down her many ideas I have.
      1. Dany will turn into a villain or fallen Hero. Many people think she will be the big villain in the end. Personally I don’t see that happen, at least not as herself (I explain later what I mean with that). If she will go that path, I think it will be because she will turn into a fallen Hero. She fought for good, she always think about the common people. What if in season 8 everything she fought for will crumbling down, Slavers bay returns, Jon betray her for his family and the north. Maybe the she lose the control over the dothraki. The North will turn against her, Tyrion (her connection to the south) will turn against her, or at least choose Jon over her. I can understand she will lose it.

      2. She will be a sacrifice a la Nissa Nissa. (somehow I don’t think this will happen.

      3. She will die. And Arya is forced to wear her face to keep the kingdoms together. This will make sense to give the whole Braavos storyline some meaning.

      4. An theory I had when reading Emilia’s statements. What if Dany is caught by the Night King at the battle of Winterfell alive. We already saw him turn a living baby into a white Walker. Who said that he can’t do it with somebody who is a little bit older. Or maybe this will never happen because the Night King is an misogynistic pig who only choose the male gender. So we need to see if he will embrace the woman rights movement or keeps his man only army.

      3 and 4 could be combined. And if Dany will turn into a White Walker it doesn’t mean she will be a White Walker who is evil perse.

      ps. Is it strange that I want a trailer with the song: Behind blue eyes. The text of that song really looks like it’s made for the Night King.

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    37. Edward,

      i wanted to start my comment above with something like “fuck fanbases anyway” because it really made me angry how the fanbase of a character has been declared relevant for the character being main or sub.

      then i thought “fuck it, i already take the freedom to write down explicit words without asterisk…”

      yes, it’s strange how some can get excited by tv-shows.

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    38. death by chickenfire,

      Jon has never been portraied as a strategist or politician. he’s as good at calculating opponents’s strategies as a hippo is at ballet dancing. so i don’t see why he should become a good player of the big game.

      Jon should, however, be learning from his mistakes. Sansa said that the Starks need to be smarter than Ned and Robb and Jon is not being smarter. This is bad writing on the part of the writers. They went from the idea that good doesn’t equal dumb and that good people like Tyrion and Davos can also be smart politicians that do underhanded things to celebrating something as boneheaded as Jon’s silly Dragonpit speech as a great moral virtue. Just lie or better yet never pledge to Dany in the first place.

      i already had a bad feeling about those testosterone mad warrior lords screaming Robb Stark and later Jon into a position that has been gone for good reason. the North isn’t a kingdom anymore,

      There is no reason why the North cannot be a kingdom again. In fact, given how poorly recent kings have treated the North, they have every right to demand it.

      the saving of thousands of lives involved: a Stark and a Targaryen.

      The Targaryens have never saved the Starks from any threat. The Targaryen-Stark relationship was always one of master-servant rather than one of equal allies or a tit for tat.

      what’s wrong with Jon repeating this submission to the second Targaryen conqueror who actually just wants to have back what’s been taken from her family?

      Daenerys isn’t owed a crown because her family once ruled. It isn’t hers by rights. No one is owed a crown. It should be based on the will of the governed, not divine blood right.

      oh, and Jon’s family, of course, and this is a nice one. even if he has “the king who knelt” back in mind and thinks “wow, i’m repeating Stark history”, he’s actually avoiding another possible bloodbath in Tagaryen history without knowing.

      If Daenerys was threatening to burn the North, then Jon would be justified in kneeling. The thing is that she isn’t unless you aren’t taking her at her words.

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    39. I have no idea if Dany will go “mad” or not. Honestly, a successful argument can be made for why she will go mad as well as why she won’t, so it’s somewhat pointless to debate it with the mind-frame that one’s opinion is correct and the other is not until we see how it all plays out in season 8.

      IMO, they’ve dropped so many “hints” that Dany will go mad that I’m inclined to think it’s nothing more than misdirection. If Dany’s 8-season arc just comes down to nothing more than the tempter tantrum of all tempter tantrums because she won’t win the Iron Throne then I’ll personally be disappointed and feel that her arc was a waste of time for 8 seasons. There’s got to be more to Dany than that.

      IMO, a more worthy end to her arc would be to realize that she’s not going to get what she wants, but comes to terms with it in a way that would benefit the greater good.

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    40. Edward:
      Eonwe,

      That’s exactly what season 8 will be about…. how is that a disappointment if it’s been built up for years and years? The showdown with the AOTD isn’t some half-baked plot point that suddenly emerged in season 7. What else would season 8 even be about if it wasn’t going to be about dealing with the conflict of the Night King and Cersei?

      And I’ll respectdfully disagree with you about AFWC. It’s defunirely not a great book and splitting up the contents like that was a fool’s errand.

      I don’t think season 8 will only be about AOTD and Cercei, because if that’s the case, there will be no game changer. And that’s something that’s been promised. Even some actors stated that the story will go into a direction that we wouldn’t expect. If the show ends only with AOTD and Cercei as the villains, the show will end the way we would expect after watching season 7 final. Something more will happen.

      And personally I don’t understand the hate for AFFC, I’m with Eonwe with this. For me FFC was interesting with Cercei and Kingsmoot, I even liked the Brienne and Sam chapters. But for DwD I really didn’t like the Dany chapters (which I loved in SoS) and the Jon chapters only were interesting because of things happening around Jon, Stannis, backstabbing etc. The thing I liked with DwD was in fact every other chapter than that of Jon and Dany (yes they are the main characters). The Theon chapters fucked me up, the Bran chapters I found interesting and magical. The Tyrion chapters I liked because of Aegon and the whole Mereen part later.

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    41. got_tv_fan: I know that Sansa fans think that Jon is seducing Daenerys for political reasons, but I don’t think this is the fact. The showrunners have just decided good = dumb. For instance, Liam Cunningham has mentioned on more than one occasion that Kit Harington filmed the Jon speech in the DP the day after the US election in 2016, which suggests the show thinks it is some sort of profound statement of moral leadership rather than how most fans saw it – as a boneheaded political misstep. This is disappointing because in the books and earlier seasons of the show, good characters like Davos and Tyrion were allowed to play politics and do morally ambiguous things

      Yeah, I sort of agree. I’m not sure why they are writing Jon as a replica of Ned. Isn’t he supposed to be more flexible in his honor? Doesn’t he use deceit and lies during the wildling plot? That’s book Jon at the very least and it keeps him alive. Ironically, Ned also was a very good liar to keep Jon hidden like that.

      Jon suffers from some really inconsistent writing. D&D keep describing him as “honorable to a fault” in interviews and say that this is what contributed to his death. Then they write him to make the same mistakes and learn nothing. This honorable fool characterization also contradicts Kit’s interviews and Ygritte’s assessment of him as a liar. In S7 he says Jon is using manipulation and that in S4 his character is fighting dirtier. It’s all rather confusing and I’m not sure what to think. All I know is that if Jon comes across dumber than Daario the show runners have royally fucked up something along the way.

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    42. got_tv_fan,

      you wrote:

      “Sansa said that the Starks need to be smarter than Ned and Robb and Jon is not being smarter. This is bad writing on the part of the writers.”

      no, it is bad learning by Jon.

      i’m out. i tried my best.

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    43. death by chickenfire:
      got_tv_fan,

      you wrote:

      “Sansa said that the Starks need to be smarter than Ned and Robb and Jon is not being smarter. This is bad writing on the part of the writers.”

      no, it is bad learning by Jon.

      i’m out. i tried my best.

      Well, he learned at least one thing: How to make love with his little pecker. All the ladies coming back. That says something.

      But seriously, I think with GoT you can’t say if something is badly writen until the show is done. We don’t know where everything will lead if it’s important of not. For me Jon is in fact strategic when he puts his mind to it. His only big flaw is his emotion. That’s something that gets the better of him. End season 1 when he walked away, Rickon, Dany etc. Personally that’s something I like about his character.

      But I think we need to stop attacking the writing before we watched the end result. I remember something similar with Harry Potter 7.1 A lot of people were complaining because the film contained “unnecessary” scenes. But as a book reader I knew, those scenes are the most important of the movie. And when they watched the last part they saw that the fault wasn’t the writing, but that the fault was that they judged something that wasn’t finished.

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    44. death by chickenfire,

      Show Jon turned into best swordsman of the show. Because book Jon is quite ruthless and can do politicals and military campaigns. But D&D saw Kit doing his own stunts after filming Pompeii and decided to focus Jon on flashy fights. We could have gotten a Jon like the one of season 4. Who combined flashy fights with leadership and tacticals decisions (chills for when he sent Grenn to hold the door).

      And nothing was taken from the Targaryens. They were deposed for commiting tyranny. Despite what the show claims about Robert´s Rebellion being a lie it wasn´t started because of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Jon Arryn raised his banners against Aerys only after he demanded to the lord of the Vale to hand over Robert Baratheon (lord of the Stormlands and cousin) an Eddard Stark (lord of the north). And he demanded that after executing a dozen nobles and his sons (amongst them were Rickard, Brandon and the own heir of Jon Arryn) in a mockery trial.

      Plenty of reasons for four great houses to rise against the Targ, the Lannister siting on the sidelines and the dornish not being cooperative until Elia and her children were used as hostages.

      Edward,

      I expect more than good guys vs tropes bad guys. Because the heart of the story is the human heart at fight with itself and because Martin wanted to do something different from the clichés.

      If season 8 is gonna be, episodes 1-3 good guys vs zombies; episodes 4-6 good guys vs evil queen and an ending with a good monarch on the throne because it´s one of the heroes. Then it´s gonna be disapointing because it will be a repeat of what Martin criticized Tolkien for.

      I want a messy outcome of this like the Dance of Dragons were both claimants selfishness cost them their lives and a betrayal of their own subjects. I want something like the first Blackfyre Rebellion where victory was stained by kinslaying. I want something like Robert´s Rebellion,a victory tainted by the sack of King´s Landing and the murders of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon.

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    45. kevin1989,

      I never said season 8 would only” be about Cersei and The Night King. But judging from all of the buildup and what we’ve seen via spoilers, it’s reasonable to say they’ll take up a huge chunk of the “conflict” of the final season.

      You’re right. It wouldn’t be GoT without curveballs, and I suspect something really crazy to ensue. But being disappointed that season 8 might be primarily based on the looming threat of the AOTD and Cersei seems silly to me.

      As far as AFWC, it’s not a bad book by any means. But it’s kind of like season 5 of GoT. Good television but not a GREAT season of Thrones.

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    46. death by chickenfire,

      So you think that Jon should remain a flat one-dimensional character who never learns anything? Shouldn’t as part of the “hero’s journey” be the hero learning and becoming more competent rather than repeating the same mistakes over and over? If the writers are somehow going to have the hero win because he is good and kind and the good guy is supposed to win, then that is bad writing. It is much more satisfying for a hero to win due to their own abilities rather than being a constant failure. (The other possibility is the good, but stupid hero ends up getting the world destroyed because of his mistakes. This is too nihilistic for even Martin.)

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    47. Eonwe,

      That’s reasonable. I don’t think you need to worry about the last season being so “cut and dry”. It’ll definitely be much more than just conflict and war. GoT has always been about human folly and political drama as well.

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    48. Edward,

      I think that the big battles (I bet they happen in episodes 3 and 5) will follow the pattern of last seasons battles like Hardhome, BotB, and Field of Fire 2.0. A third of screentime. So maybe this will lead to 3 chapter full or nearly fully dedicated to the drama and the other two with two thirds of the lenght.

      Helm´s Deep after all it´s twenty minutes in a three hour movie.

      We have seem what they have filmed on those sets. But the bulk of what we will see will likely bee studio shots.

      Battle sequences are heavy time consuming. I remember that D&D gave Sapochnik two weeks to film BotB and when he read the script and learn D&D wanted him to use the whole horse unit he said “I would need two months for what you are asking”.

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    49. Kevin1989,

      I don’t know if the prophecy has be in a certain order But I always thought the 1st is Gold – Jorah Mormont getting a pardon from a King which he did.

      2nd is Love – which Tyrion will do and not Daario Naharis… so no Daario in Season 8

      3rd is Blood – Which has to be Jon – I think the Night King will make Daenerys into a White Walker. Jon Snow kills the Night King knowing when he does it will shatter his wife – his lover – The mother of the his daughter into itty bitty pieces.

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    50. Edward,

      True, but it can be that that’s only episode 1 to 4 and that in 5 we maybe see something else.

      I think the problem with AFFC is not that it’s bad or worse then the other 5. But the focus of the characters. I think most wanted to catch up with Dany or Jon. And it contained little of the stark girls. I think that’s the main reason that people disliked that book.

      For me it contained my favorite storylines of the whole saga. Cercei’s story, how that whole story come together was just brilliant and the build up exciting. Dorne and Iron Islands were one of my favorite. (much better than how the show did it). Sam and Brienne I liked. I only had a problem with the first couple of chapters.

      Personally I think he should have given us a huge chunk of DWD part 1 in FFC. That way the book of FFC would have been max 100 pages longer than DWD is now. That way he could have the big battles he is given us at the beginning of WoW in DWD. The only characters he should have left in DWD are Bran, Quentyn (because of plottwist with the dorne storyline at the end of FFC) and Theon. The first part of Dany’s and Jon’s story should have been in FfC. Same with Tyrion.

      firstone,

      I like that theory of you with Dany.

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    51. kevin1989: I think the problem with AFFC is not that it’s bad or worse then the other 5. But the focus of the characters. I think most wanted to catch up with Dany or Jon. And it contained little of the stark girls. I think that’s the main reason that people disliked that book.

      That was definitely a big part of my problem. I read three books getting invested in and interested with Arya, Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion with sprinklings of others. Then I get into AFfC and it’s like another series with pov chapters with Cersei, Brienne, and a bunch of Dorne and Iron Islands stuff that I cared for in either a secondary manner or not one bit. It’s one thing to add more pov characters but not having the originals at all or hardly sucked. ADwD brought some of them back but he again added more secondary stuff. I didn’t give a shit about Quentyn Martell!! Give me more ASNAWP!! 🙂

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    52. Eonwe,

      I definitely see your prediction coming true. There seems to be two GRAND scale battles this season. Plus maybe a smaller battle (Theon must rescue Yara or die trying).

      Plus most of the characters will be conveniently gathered in one area (Winterfell) so characterization won’t be hard to do when they’re all forced to interact with each other. I think people who crave the wonderful interpersonal conflict GoT has to offer will be happy 🙂

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    53. “Three treasons you will know…once for blood and once for gold and once for love.”

      If Daario is indeed coming back, it’s almost certainly because he has a role to play in this that can’t be played by another character.

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    54. Azor Asshai,

      I’ve read so many different interpretations of this that it could be just about anything/anybody at this point. Besides, I don’t think the show mentioned the 3 betrayals, did they? Is that a book-only thing? I really don’t recall.

      Also, couldn’t the 3 betrayals actually refer to Dany committing the betrayals and not being the victim?

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    55. Clob,

      But Jon Connington was an amazing character that got added in my opinion. And I liked Arianne, one of my favorite characters in the Saga.

      Only thing I wonder is why he would show 1 storyline through the eyes of many, I meant with this that Iron Island should have been completely been Asha chapters, not for instance the prophet. Same with Iron Island should have been completely Arianne, not that dude from KL.

      But still I hope we get a mr Pounce POV chapter. Maybe the book version of the explosion of sept of bealor.

      Edward,
      If rumours are true about the runtime, we can expect every episode to have at least a small battle. (with 2 big ones). But I hope it will be done in a characterization kind of way. What I meant is not battle for the sake of battle but I want to see how characters will react.

      For instance if we will see the NK take on a smaller castle, I don’t want it to be focused on the battle and the NK as a character. But I want to follow a northern lord, how he sees this horror and we feel what he feels. Maybe he tries to send a raven to get help, or escapes. Let us care what happened.

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    56. This is off topic but I just saw The Walking Dead S9 premiere dropped over 5 million in viewership from last season!? They’re down to just over 6m, or about a third of their series high four years ago. I for one quit watching a couple seasons ago because I was just hate-watching and tired of the cyclical story that went nowhere. Apparently I’m not alone anymore. While I believe it’s ridiculous to compare that show to GoT I think it still shows that D&D have done things properly by keeping the storylines on track and not trying to draaaaaag out the series beyond viewership interest.

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    57. Clob,

      Yes. People love to berate D&D but I could think of no other duo that could have adapted GoT better. At least they’re ending it with integrity.

      I hope the viewership for the final season blows expectations. I’m sure the last episode will at least.

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    58. kevin1989,

      I agree. Battle scenes aren’t poignant if they don’t have the proper scope to capture the contents in a meaningful way that transcends gore and pure violence.

      That’s why the loot train battle is so amazing because we felt like we were right alongside Tyrion/Dany and Bron. Very effective storytelling.

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    59. Edward,

      Is quite posible that we will see smaller battles like Euron attacking Yara´s fleet or the unsullied storming the rock. Or holdfast taken off-screen like Highgarden.

      Mr Derp,

      I think that the three treasons are book only like the bit about Cersei and the valonquar.

      kevin1989,

      Aeron´s chapters are worth for a chapter like “The Forsaken” WOW. When Martin released it I got we he preferred it above the Arianne chapter (he let people choose between releasing an Arianne or an Aeron chapter. People chose the first).

      About Quentyn´s arc. It´s awesome. It´s Martin tearing apart the classic Hero´s Journey whithout mercy.

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    60. Edward,

      More like being beside Jaime and Bronn watching hopelessly chaos unfolding whithout being able to stop it like Hardhome. Tyrion a mere watcher of the horror. And Dany as an impersonal force of destruction by fire.

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    61. Mr Derp,

      Exactly. Dany must remember what she wanted in the beginning – HOME. She could have had a home with Drogo but she declined it. Then she lost everything she loved – her man and her child. Now it looks like she has been given the second chance to get home and family. If she declines it again, there will be no third.

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    62. kevin1989: But Jon Connington was an amazing character that got added in my opinion. And I liked Arianne, one of my favorite characters in the Saga.

      Yeah, I didn’t mention the Griffs. That I’ve been okay with, especially Septa Lemore. 😉 A lot of their stuff was through Tyrion though so that at least felt part of the initial group.
      I’m still not totally on board with Arianne as I still see her story as ‘robbing’ from the others. I’ll have to get used to it though as it appears like she’ll be a primary character in TWoW.

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    63. Inga,

      That´s the whole point of her book arc. She wants the IT because she thinks it would become a home and suppress her loneliness. But everytime he truly pictures in her mind home she is reminded of a house with a red door and a lemon tree and the smile of ser Willem Darry.

      If I look back I am lost.

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    64. Anon:
      Ten Bears,

      Jon might very well break Dany’s heart in the end because of his devotion to duty.Daario seems only devoted to Dany.

      Of that I have no doubt. I think Jon is going to undergo the Uncle Benjen shard-to-the-heart treatment and become half undead to save the realm. His destiny will be to spend the rest of his days, if not eternity, roaming the frozen north by himself with a perpetual brooding look on his face. In other words, par for the course.

      [Paraphrasing]: Maester Aemon told him he wouldn’t find much joy in his command. Beric told him he won’t find much joy while he’s here.
      And Jon the Conciliator has always been willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to save others (eg what he thought would be a suicide mission to take out Mance Rayder; making peace with the Wildlings; the stupid wight hunt). As much as I’d like to, I can’t envision him having a long and happy life with a dragon queen wife and a gaggle full of little Targlets running around.

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    65. Off topic but anyone have any input on con of thrones being worth the trip? I’m not incredibly far as I am in New England. Seems to be mixed opinions on it plus I got no one to go with anyways but thinking maybe seeing if anyone wants to go. Don’t want to drag someone there if it’s not worth I though

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    66. kevin1989,

      “maybe this will never happen because the Night King is an misogynistic pig who only choose the male gender. So we need to see if he will embrace the woman rights movement or keeps his man only army.”

      ———-
      Hold on a second! Ol’ Blue Eyes isn’t a misogynistic pig. He prefers the company of men. He’s been trying to impress the hell out of the hottest guy in the North. He’s got great fashion taste. (Did you check out those boots when he walked down the dock at Hardhome?) He has best buddies who hold his umm… javelin for him. All he’s been trying to do since Day One is make it down to the tropics in time for Beach Week with his bong and beer buddy Brett.

      If there’s a problem with gender bias, let’s not blame the victim. 🌈

        Quote  Reply

    67. Shane Snow:
      Off topic but anyone have any input on con of thrones being worth the trip? I’m not incredibly far as I am in New England. Seems to be mixed opinions on it plus I got no one to go with anyways but thinking maybe seeing if anyone wants to go. Don’t want to drag someone there if it’s not worth I though

      I had a wonderful time. There were so many fabulous panels that some were scheduled at the same time and it was hard to choose. If you’re outgoing it helps. I got to know many of the fabulous WOTW Staff as well as some other posters. I also got to know some of the YouTube people from the Game of Thrones community. Even the spouse was pleased that I went

        Quote  Reply

    68. Stark Raven Rad,

      I wrote this to myself several months before this year’s Con in May….

      TB vs. Real Life

      TB: “Ooh! Ooh! Definitely going this year. It’ll be a blast. I’ll go as the the f*cking Lightning Lord Beric Dondarrion”! (*Starts mentally designing balsa wood sword painted metallic silver, with LED illuminated mylar foil orange flame optical effects*)
      First I’ll need to…”

      Real Life: “Uh… What do you think you’re doing?”

      TB: “Making plans for the Con in May. Writing up my “To Do” Checklist:

      🔲 Event passes
      🔲 Flight schedules
      🔲 Hotel reservations
      🔲 Tinfoil helmet for Q&A sessions”

      Real Life: “That’s cute. But you’re not going.”

      TB: “Yes I am.”

      Real Life: “No you’re not.”

      TB: “F*ck off! Am too!”

      Real Life: “Guess again, moron. Look at your work calendar for May.”

      TB: “Wait, what? ….. Oh no. Oh no!!!!”

      Real Life: “Oh yes. You sold your soul a long time ago. Last two weeks in May are already bought and paid for. Weekends included. This is business. Those folks are counting on you.

      TB: “I’ll call and ask them to reschedule.”

      Real Life: “You already confirmed in writing. You already cashed their check.”

      TB: “I’ll tell them my dog died. I’ll tell them my dog ate my homework. I’ll tell them my dog ate my calendar…”

      Real Life: “You don’t have a dog.”

      TB: “Then I’ll try candor.”

      Real Life: “Sandor? The one they call Dog?”

      TB: “No, candor. Honesty. I’ll explain this is the annual convention and I really, really want to go. Surely they’ll understand.”

      Real Life: “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”

      TB: 😖

      — Cont. in next comment —

        Quote  Reply

    69. death by chickenfire:
      got_tv_fan,

      you wrote:

      “Sansa said that the Starks need to be smarter than Ned and Robb and Jon is not being smarter. This is bad writing on the part of the writers.”

      no, it is bad learning by Jon.

      i’m out. i tried my best.

      She said SHE was The bad learner! Seriously, it is bad writing because Jon was very wily in the books, But also because it is likely that Dan and Dave we’re also using her words to show her as a hypocrite. After all she had been through, she still had gone against children in the previous scene and here she was pronouncing on her father without thinking about circumstances and the pressures she was under. also fresh in viewer minds was her deliberate deception at the battle of the bastards. It does neither credit—she comes off as judgmental and he comes off as stupid, but hes not.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Inga:
      Mr Derp,

      Exactly. Dany must remember what she wanted in the beginning – HOME. She could have had a home with Drogo but she declined it. Then she lost everything she loved – her man and her child. Now it looks like she has been given the second chance to get home and family. If she declines it again, there will be no third.

      I think if she burns fAegon in the books, its actually her second chance. He is raised as a Targ, has no probs with incest, wants a restoration, wants to rule in KL with her. If she kills him because his blood wasnt pure enough for her then she’s not going to get a third chance with the real guy. Dany is gonna screw herself again.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Stark Raven Rad,

      • Last year when I was trying to make (ultimately aborted plans), I noticed that all of the good hotel rooms and event passes had already been snapped up. Also, there weren’t 2-3 day continuous days of available hotel rooms, which would’ve meant moving from one hotel to another each day.

      I’m not whining. I’m just wondering if anybody has tips how to make effective travel, lodging and attendance arrangements.

      • My real concern though is that this year, Season 8 won’t finish airing before preservation or discussion proposals are due (by mid-March, I think).. I was considering submitting a program topic, then realized it would probably be obsolete or disproven by the time of the Con. I’d be so embarrassed I’d have to walk around with a tin foil hat on my head and a paper bag over it.

      • It’d be nice to conduct a charity auction for one of the stars’ favorite charities – if there were a way to get them to donate something even if they don’t personally appear.
      I know if Arya’s bloody sneakers were up for auction I’d start the bidding at some crazy amount I couldn’t afford.
      Better yet, splicing video of a fan into a show scene – the technology is available and inexpensive – would make a great souvenir, and a good fundraiser.

      • I hope I can go. In years past my disappointment increased exponentially as the date neared, as more and better guest stars, popular reviewers, and WotW staff All-Stars were announced as attending.

      • There’s no justice in this world if Hot Pie isn’t on board this year. I’d die if I can’t go and then see an announcement that my celebrity crush will be attending.

        Quote  Reply

    72. The books and the show have implied that Essos has some kind of role in the end game. The clergy of R’hllor keep turning up in all seasons pointing towards some kind of involvement in the fight with forces of the Night.
      Same goes for Braavos and a the loose ends with the House of Black and White.
      Is that conversation between Varys and Kinvara gonna be cleared up?
      Ania Bukstein on set for season 8?

        Quote  Reply

    73. I don’t want to turn this into a book vs show debate because you have to recognise they are different mediums. For example Rob Stark in the show was much more prominent in the show versus the books and it made the Red Wedding even more shocking. Meanwhile I do feel you have people like Yara/Osha and Barristan as Point of View in the books but they are much background characters in the show. In terms of AFFC whilst I did read that book I also felt disappointment that there was any of my favourite characters (although not sure now if Arya is in there), I found Brienne stuff boring for example, it all just felt meandering and world building rather than progressing the story.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Stark Raven Rad,

      And here I thought that Sansa was just imparting practical advice that Jon was ignoring as usual. I didn’t know we were supposed to see her as a “hypocrite.” This seemed like caring sister to me, not a power-hungry schemer.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Clob,

      I watch The walking dead and the spin-off the walking dead. Walking dead keeps getting worse and worse, the spin-off is much better now (but still not great). For me the only season of the walking dead worth watching is season 1. That season was brilliant. season 2 till 5 was ok, after that it become worse and worse. The story is so dragged. Every season is 16 episodes which could easily be done in 6. The dragging dead is coming to an end.

      Edward,
      That scene was amazing, it was a scene where you understand the Lannisters. And rooting for both sides. But for me hardhome wins, I never feel anything with horror movies, but that battle got me.

      Eonwe,
      +1. I even liked the Quentyn story, how it ends. Poor boy.

      Ten Bears,

      Poor old Night King, he just wanted to be loved.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Eonwe,

      Oh Eonwe, I found Quentyn terribly boring. I can’t always make spoilers work so I’ll try and say this in a non-spoilery way. I did think his more or less final significant action in ADWD helped add to the atmosphere of chaos in Mereen*. Whatever minor nitpicks I may have with GRRM he does evoke a sense of chaos in many of the strands of his story at the end of ADWD and he does show that the poor folk underneath suffer in wartime.

        Quote  Reply

    77. To get back to the subject of the thread – I looked at Wikipedia, Michiel H has been a busy lad – three films in 2017 and three films in 2018. I don’t know how big his parts were of course. He’s also been working on a TV show The Haunting of Hill House. Still he worked on a season of Orphan Black at the same time he was working on GoT so who knows?

      I said on the forums yesterday that I had found out just too late (it finished on 6th October in Birmingham, UK) that John Stahl who was Lord Karstark in seasons 2 and 3 had been in a play based on characters by Ian Rankin. The play has gone on tour but the nearest venue to me was Manchester and 96% of the tickets had gone and factoring in the travelling (it’s still a bit of a jaunt to Manchester without a car) and the price of the tickets (which were on the high side) I’ll have to give that a miss. I like the Rebus books – I think Lord Karstark is playing the baddy – someone from Coronation Street is playing Rebus, though Ken Stott will always be my mental image of Rebus.

        Quote  Reply

    78. * The asterisk in my post about Quentyn was supposed to explain that autocorrect changed Mereen to “Mermen” and I wasn’t even typing about Varys. I don’t think it’s a spoiler to say that there is a fan theory among somebook readers that Varys is a merman. I did wonder at one time (I don’t think I’m the only one) if Varys might be a woman (based on a plot point from a Dennis Wheatley book – not one of his black magic ones; I don’t read books like that). No, I don’t think Varys has xx chromosomes, pretty sure Varys is a man, albeit one who was cruelly treated as a child.

        Quote  Reply

    79. Dame of Mercia,

      Varys is a man who got his dick cut as part of some weird magic ritual. That part of his past has made him hate anything related with magic and that’s why his book versión is not gonna support Dany.

        Quote  Reply

    80. I loved the first couple of season of Walking Dead but it soon became repetitive and you lost all care for the characters as they came and were killed off season by season to be replaced by new survivors. GOT kills of characters but you still have the investment and it’s done organically.

        Quote  Reply

    81. got_tv_fan:
      Stark Raven Rad,

      And here I thought that Sansa was just imparting practical advice that Jon was ignoring as usual.I didn’t know we were supposed to see her as a “hypocrite.”This seemed like caring sister to me, not a power-hungry schemer.

      Or both. It did seem shocking when they argued over those kids. Then a few minutes later she criticized her father. In both cases her arguments were logical but lacking in empathy, something he willinglydied for. In the event she spent the rest of the season quoting Ned.

        Quote  Reply

    82. Ten Bears: Anon

      In the early days of the series, I thought Jon could end up as a Wight. It seems so appropriately tragic.

      It’s a good thing he has Davos “We have to fight but we don’t have to die.” on his team to temper his ‘suicidal’ tendencies. Even Sansa warned him that he had to be smarter than Ned and Robb and not wind up dead. But Sansa is an extreme case of self-preservation. Maybe Jon will learn to be more balanced in his approach to self-sacrifice vs. self-preservation. I believe there are things worth dying for, but not everything is worth dying for.

      Maybe I’m being unfair to Jon. He did urge Mance to bend the knee to save his life and his people. Maybe his Jesus complex applies only to himself.

        Quote  Reply

    83. got_tv_fan:
      death by chickenfire,

      Jon should, however, be learning from his mistakes.Sansa said that the Starks need to be smarter than Ned and Robb and Jon is not being smarter.This is bad writing on the part of the writers.

      Keeping true to a character is the exact opposite of bad writing.

        Quote  Reply

    84. So now Ned willingly died?

      That’s one mighty distortion of the reality and all in order to criticise Sansa.

      Sad.

      And, of course, Sansa is still the power-hungry schemer even after the season is over and it’s been proven conclusively that she never sought power, even when opportunities were presented.

      She rejected the lords’ offer of the Northern throne. She didn’t fall for Littlefinger’s schemes and had him executed. And she spent most of the season begging Jon not to leave and then wishing he was back home at Winterfell.

      But apparently none of that exists.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Young Dragon,

      The idea of a “hero’s journey” is that the protagonist grows. He or she doesn’t keep making the same mistakes. The issue with Show!Jon is he has not grown as a character. He has no leadership skills, charisma, battlefield skills, etc. The show has downgraded him to a one-dimensional flat “Northern fool” bot and submissive follower. Either they are going to do a 180 and show Jon suddenly competent in Season 8 or they are going to go with good guy wins not by being clever and outsmarting the enemy but because he is moral. Neither of these options are good writing.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Edward,

      Please tell me why I’m wrong? If the writing had shown a progression in Jon’s character, he would have made good political/ strategic choices in Season 7. Instead, he made the same mistakes he makes every season.

        Quote  Reply

    87. got_tv_fan,

      Because no matter how much you progress as a human being, you’re still always liable to make inadvertent mistakes. That’s just humanity. So the fact that Jon makes dumb decision isn’t necessarily a mark of bad writing, I think it’s fairly realistic. Can you even imagine Jon being a 100% capable military commander with amazing political skills? I just don’t see that happening even at the end of the series. But I do know this season has to fundamentally change him since it’ll wrap up his character arc.

      That’s like asking why Ned didn’t make better decisions in season 1 when the entire audience knew his folly would lead to his undoing at some point. It’s not a complete parallel since Jon survived and matured throughout the series while we only were with Ned for a short time, but both characters are people who’re stuck in their ways, for better or for worse. Sometimes characters are set in their ways almost annoyingly, but if there’s consistency in how they’ve approached all of their issues, it shouldn’t be labeled as bad “character” writing. Now I get why you’d have an issue with the execution. Because the venture beyond the wall just wasn’t executed with enough sense. But that’s more geared towards plot. I don’t see much bad character writing in Jon though.

      Incompetent character writing is the bulk of Arya’s season 7 Winterfell storyline. That was also butchered by the pacing of the season.

      We can agree to disagree though. It’s clear you’re not that impartial to the show, and it would be a fool’s errand to try to convince each other further. I admit I’m not that impartial either but I love both the book and show equally.

        Quote  Reply

    88. got_tv_fan
      Jon does possess both leadership skills and battlefield skills. That’s why people follow him. What mistakes are you referring to, exactly? Because the Night’s Watch mutiny was on them, not him, as was the northern lords’ discontentment.

      The battle with the Night’s King was never going to be decided by who can outsmart the other, but who is the better fighter.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Young Dragon: Because the Night’s Watch mutiny was on them, not him, as was the northern lords’ discontentment.

      Yeah, but his inability to see it coming is on him and will be again if he hasn’t accounted for the Northern lords’ discontent.

      He even chose to keep Alliser Thorne at Castle Black, despite advice to the contrary from Stannis.

      You really can’t argue that he deserves a free pass if he makes exactly the same mistake he did with the Night’s Watch / Wildlings.

      His own personal experience and his knowledge of what happened to Robb must inform his decisions, particularly after another character explicitly warned him not to make the same mistakes, otherwise either the writing is imbecilic or the character is.

      If Jon is blindsided by discontent over his decision to bend the knee then either the character has not grown at all since Season 5 and the writers take the audience like fools.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Edward,

      Because no matter how much you progress as a human being, you’re still always liable to make inadvertent mistakes. That’s just humanity. So the fact that Jon makes dumb decision isn’t necessarily a mark of bad writing, I think it’s fairly realistic. Can you even imagine Jon being a 100% capable military commander with amazing political skills?

      The issue is that Jon only makes bad decisions whether in terms of military tactics and political strategy. It is one thing for a main character to make a bad mistake. That is part of the story. However, continuing to make the same mistakes over and over again are what is at issue. Take Jon’s inexplicable decision to kneel to Daenerys for no reason and not even inform the Northern lords or Sansa prior. The show has foreshadowed that this will go over poorly in the North. You’d think someone who was shanked by his own men for an unpopular decision would realize that getting buy-in from others and explaining the reasoning for another controversial decision might be a good thing.

      And yes, I’d like Jon to have some military skills, political skills, leadership skills, etc. If he doesn’t, he has no right to be called a hero or be a king. The good guy wins solely because he is good isn’t something I find appealing in stories. That sort of black and white telling is for Disney fairy tales, not GOT.

      That’s like asking why Ned didn’t make better decisions in season 1 when the entire audience knew his folly would lead to his undoing at some point.

      Ned was killed because of his stupid decisions despite being a moral character. Unless you are going to argue that the Northern lords shank Jon again for his stupidity in the first episodes, it is poor writing to make Jon a stupider and more uptight version of Ned and still have him survive.

      Sometimes characters are set in their ways almost annoyingly, but if there’s consistency in how they’ve approached all of their issues, it shouldn’t be labeled as bad “character” writing.

      The protagonist being stuck in his ways and never growing is bad writing. There is something called character development? Characters should change. There is no point of writing a fictional story where your characters don’t grow and remain flat and fixed in their ways. (And yes, GOT has done character development. Look at how Sansa has changed as a character.)

      Now I get why you’d have an issue with the execution. Because the venture beyond the wall just wasn’t executed with enough sense. But that’s more geared towards plot. I don’t see much bad character writing in Jon though.

      Both the plot and characters were badly written in Season 7. The whole season was a hot mess.

      Young Dragon,

      First, people don’t follow him. The North is grumbling about him. Second, battles are decided by outsmarting opponents rather than just brute force. Politics and strategy are important and both the books and the show (to a lesser extent) make that point. Two of the most important characters in the whole war are Bran and Sam, neither of whom can fight. So yes, I will be disappointed if Season 8 is mindless CGI violence rather than them finding a clever way to deal with the AOTD.

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    91. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      That’s pure victim blaming. Jon always does what is best for Westeros, and he was one of the first ones to take the White Walker threat seriously. The Night’s Watch mutineers couldn’t get pass their hate of the wildling to see the bigger threat. They were in the wrong, Jon was in the right. The same is true for teaming up with Danerys. She and her army gives Westeros the best chance of survival, but the northern lords can’t forget the past. Again, they are in the wrong, and Jon is in the right. It would be so easy for Jon to do the wrong thing to please his people, it would also be safer. But Jon is the type of person who does what he thinks is right, and it’s what I like about him.

        Quote  Reply

    92. got_tv_fan,

      Yeah, they do. He was appointed both Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch and King in the North. Sure, the northern lords are unhappy, but a king’s subjects are never 100% content with his rulings.

      There is no strategy to be used against an undead army.

        Quote  Reply

    93. got_tv_fan,

      He didn’t kneel to Dany for no reason. He was very adamant about keeping his own independence. He was essentially kept as a pseudo hostage which was when he began to see Dany in a more personable way. And when Dany ventured beyond the wall to save them from the AOTD, it cemented his desire to want to bend the knee. It’s not as if absolutely nothing happened to make Jon see Dany as a worthy leader. The expedited pacing and sequence of events make it hard to believe it all organically happened in the timespan that it did, but let’s not act as if there was not impetus for Jon to bend the knee. It’s not as if he could deny Dany anyways with her armed forces and Dragons. Having her as an ally in general is more favorable than being her adversary. You do what you have to do in lieu of a catastrophic threat. Even if his northern lords do have an issue with his decision, I’m sure the horde of undead creatures flanking Winterfell will change their tune. So no, that wasn’t bad writing.

      And all of your other points are merely your opinion. I told myself that I wouldn’t respond anymore but I had to respond to that point. Have fun being pessimistic about the show though. Hopefully the last season appeases you in some manner.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Young Dragon,

      What are you on about? Where did I say he wasn’t in the right?

      Victim blaming? Seriously? That’s such a childish response.

      Just because Jon was betrayed doesn’t mean he didn’t make mistakes – e.g. keeping Alliser Thorne around – nor that he shouldn’t have been more aware of the potential for mutiny and taken steps to prevent it.

      The same applies to his decision to bend the knee to Daenerys. He was explicitly urged not to make the same mistakes that Robb and Ned did. The Northern Lords made their thoughts on the Targaryens crystal clear.

      And now he has the benefit of experience that should lead him to make better decisions or, at the very least, be prepared for the worst consequences.

      There’s no reason for him not to expect the worst and already have accounted for it. If he hasn’t then the writers have turned him into an imbecile who’s unfit to rule anyway.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      “Yeah, but his inability to see it coming is on him.” My response would have been childish if I didn’t have the evidence to back it up, which I clearly do. This is you blaming Jon for being stabbed. How on Earth could he have seen it coming?

      And concerning Danerys, Jon didn’t make the same mistakes. He didn’t simply give up his kingdom at the drop of a hat. He waited until seeing that she is someone who shares his mission in fighting the army of the dead. If the northern lords have a problem with Danerys, maybe they can devise a better way of dealing with the White Walkers.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Edward: And when Dany ventured beyond the wall to save them from the AOTD, it cemented his desire to want to bend the knee. It’s not as if absolutely nothing happened to make Jon see Dany as a worthy leader.

      So Jon thinks Daenerys Targaryen would be a better ruler of the North than him, Sansa, Bran, or anyone else could?

      And Jon is making this assessment that Dany would make a wonderful ruler of the North at same time Varys and Tyrion are worried about her becoming like her father because she impassively kills a father and son for not kneeling to her?

      The Northern Lords are going to be just as stubborn as Randyll and Dickon.

        Quote  Reply

    97. MMJ,

      Huh? Swearing fealty to Dany doesn’t mean she’ll assume control over the North. Dany desires the Iron Throne, not sovereignty over the North. Just like Ned was very much in charge of Winterfell despite Robert being king. There’s hardly any difference. And just as Jon bent the knee to Dany, Dany offered her aid in defeating the white walkers, which is all he truly wants. In his mind that’s a win since it’s the most immediate issue to address. And I cannot fault him for that.

      And what you said about Tyrion and Varys is null and void because although that conversation was cause for alarm, Dany journeying beyond the wall was a step in the opposite direction of her father’s discourse. It doesn’t fully absolve her of any ill doings over the course of her leadership, but it made Jon see merit in her.

      Of course the Northern Lords will be stubborn, but I doubt they’ll stay that way for long when the AOTD begin to raid their homes and massacre their kin. If I get to ally with a woman who commands a large army and three dragons, of course I’ll be willing to put grievances aside for the time being. They’ll have to. Obviously I’m speaking personally and these fictional characters are completely different, but we can assume that’s a possibility. The same reason why Jaime is setting off to the North to join the cause despite almost being killed by Dany/Drogon. Westeros is running out of options. And when things get to the wire, impulsive decisions and quick alliances will be made. That’s just the nature of preservation.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Young Dragon,

      Of course there is strategy to be used against an undead army. There needs to be even more strategy than against a real army.

      Edward,

      First, I really hate this Daenerys is the only great leader and Daenerys deserves the North and everyone should kneel before Daenerys. It makes every other character on the show chopped liver – Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Davos, etc. The fact that the show has turned Jon into a docile servant who only wishes to reaffirm the queen’s greatness isn’t an argument for him giving her the North. If Jon was so put off by ruling, he should have handed his crown to Sansa so he could get back to docilely serving as the “muscle.”

      Second, if Daenerys was threatening to Jon with dragons or torturing and imprisoning him, these were very good reasons for Jon to kneel. It also makes her an outright villain in the story. Moreover, she explicitly dropped her demands and he knelt anyway after she did. This is what makes Jon look so dumb.

      Young Dragon,

      Jon made the exact same mistakes. He didn’t consult with his bannermen or his family despite knowing their misgivings. He made a spur of the moment decision based on feels.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Edward,
      She is there overlord now when they wanted to choose their own leader. Jon unilaterally decided to take a title they wanted him to have and downgrade it to warden. Jon decided they would be ruled by a Targaryen now. The North cannot be ruled by one of their own at this point, unless the Northern Lords decided they dont want Daenerys to be their queen and would rather elect Sansa, which they almost did.

      The North was not Jon’s to give away. He told Sansa the North was hers until he returns.

      Submitting to Dany as a ruler and fighting beside her are two completely different things and you’re confusing the two. People shouldn’t have to do one to do the other. Moreover, Dany has encountered resistance everywhere she goes. The Harpies, the Tarlys, and soon the NL. They aren’t going to go all wet noodle like Jon. Resistance serves an important function in the story because it makes Dany become less like a Mary Sue who gets everything she wants.

        Quote  Reply

    100. got_tv_fan,

      Ok, what strategy is there to be used against the undead army? Normal battle strategy depends upon anticipating your opponent’s move, so how can Jon predict the moves of a 10,000 year old ancient being who is capable of raising the dead?

      That’s not how monarchys work. Kings/lords don’t require to ask for their underling’s opinion. Tywin didn’t, Renly didn’t, Ned didn’t, Lysa didn’t, Robert didn’t, Stannis didn’t, etc. So why does Jon?

        Quote  Reply

    101. Young Dragon,

      Sorry but feudalism doesn´t work that way. If you don´t prove worthy of your bannermen they can decide to retire your support.

      Tywin Lannister won the fear of the westernlords when he massacred the Tarbecks and Reyne. From that day nobody wanted to challenge him out of fear.

      We see in AFFC and ADWD how as soon as he´s dead there´s leadership problems within the Lannister leadership.

      Ned won the northmen loyalty in the rebellion and following years. We saw how the greatJon challenged Robb pretty soon, how Roose Bolton betrayed him and how Rickard Kastark defied him. Barbrey Dustin send south few men to fight for Robb.

      Even now in the books Roose Bolton faces many northmen who are plotting to bring him down.

      And there is the Reach. Randyll Tarly choose to serve Cersei before serving Dany who had the support of her liege lady. And so Highgarden fell. In the books is quite implied that some lords are gonna turncloaks against the Tyrells.

      The Stormlords first backed Renly, then Stannis and then the Lannisters.

      Doran suffered a coup d´etat and the Iron Islands was split between Yara and Euron supporters.

      And in the books there is the whole plot of LF vs the Vale Declarants.

      So… no. Being Lord or King doesn´t grant you the power to do what you want whithout the lessers nobles approval. That´s why Aerys faced half the realms rebelling.

      Of course it´s more easy to make the lords obey you when you have the inuniverse ultimate weapons, dragons.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Young Dragon,

      A strategy for dealing with 100000 zombies. How about using chokepoints to counter the numerical advantage. How about using the land as your allie. How about making then face your forces where and when you want. How to set ambushes and target the WW who are the ones keeping this army together.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Eonwe,

      Yes, and Jon won the loyalty of the northern lords by winning the Battle of the Bastards, hence why they proclaimed him King in the North. After Ned won their loyalty, did he ever run his decisions by them? Did Twin? Did Robert? The answer to all those questions is no.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Young Dragon,

      I think Eowne has some good ideas. I’d also use both wildfire and dragonfire at strategic points.

      As for kings, of course they have to be popular with their banners or they will end up with a knife in their back. Even in a place where the King has absolute power, they aren’t immune to being deposed by knife or poison. In fact, they are more likely to be assassinated or violently overthrown in places where there aren’t other outlets to voice disapproval – independent courts, legislatures, elections, etc. Jon could always plead with his new mistress to burn the mean lords who dare to voice their support for independence alive, of course. But if Daenerys does that, she’d be exactly the tyrant that everyone thought she was.

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    105. Young Dragon,

      Yes, they didn´t want him to treat with Daenerys, they didn´t want him to go to Dragonstone. Lord Royce even said that “Targaryens can´t be trusted!”.

      Despite this Jon goes and leaves the north in Sansa hands. Weeks? Months? pass and as Jon is kept prisonner in DragonStone and Sansa manages the north we got a scene where both Lord Royce and Lord Glover are regretting naming Jon king and offer Sansa Jon´s crown.

      You think the men and women who told Jon not to go south, those who were willing to take away his kingship are gonna be happy when Jon returns and says “My lords I present you Queen Danerys Targaryen of the Seven Kingdoms your new queen.”

      Oh boy the faces of Lord Royce, Lord Glover, Lord Manderly or Lady Mormont.

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    106. Young Dragon,

      Know the Battle of the Termopilae. 7000 greeks heavy infantry (plus 30000 auxiliary men) vs more than 100000. The greeks chose the battlefield. A bottleneck that in some places was only 12-15 meters wide. This meant that the superior numbers of Xerxes were useless and the heavy armor of the greeks and the phalanx gave then the upper hand.

      And so the greeks hold the position for seven days until the persians discovered the mountain pass.

      How about using Bran powers to know where the White Walkers are and orders your archer fo fire obsidians arrows to where they are.

      How about setting lines of flammable materials in the battlefields and when the undead army you set then on fire and split the huge army into smaller ones.

      How about pulling a Daemon Targaryen stunt. Have Drogon and Rhaegal to grab Viseryon. Then jump middair from dragon to dragon and stab the NK with Longclaw.

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    107. got_tv_fan,

      As far as I know, neither Jon nor Dany has access to wildfire. And you forget, the Night’s King has a dragon as well.

      Kings can also be assassinated by looking weak. Running every decision by the northern lords is an act of weakness. They chose him as king because Jon knows what’s best for the North. The northern lords obviously don’t.

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    108. Young Dragon,

      Jon is an extremely rare case of King in Westeros. He has no seat nor lands since Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell. So this means that Jon have no means by himself to collect taxes or raise levys.

      Tywin and Ned could raise levys and collect incomes from their own lands. They had economic and military threats to keep one or two rebellious lords in line. Remember that Robb told the Greatjon that he was free to go home but when the war was over he would come for him and hang him for oathbreaker. Robb could make that threat because he had the means.

      Jon has no means of his own. He is a king who relies in his bannermen loyalty.

      The crowlands in the IT monarchy are the lands sworn directly to the crown and even the heir to the Throne back in the Targs was the lord of Dragonstone and it´s land.

      When Tywin crushed the Tarbeck-Reyne rebellion he did it against his lord father wishes. The rock men choose to obey the heir above their liege.

      Such are politics in feudalism.

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    109. Eonwe: Oh boy the faces of Lord Royce, Lord Glover, Lord Manderly or Lady Mormont.

      I’m more interested to see the looks on their faces when the AOTD comes knockin’

      Something tells me the fickle Northern lords will be a bit more willing to negotiate with Dany once they see the AOTD. The same Northern lords who claim to love the North but were apparently unwilling to stop the Boltons from running it through fear and intimidation.

      They all need to ban together to fight the AOTD, but honestly, if Lord Glover and the like can’t get themselves to do that then it’s their own fault if they don’t survive.

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    110. Eonwe,

      So the example you gave didn’t even work. Not the best argument. Besides, a choke point is useless against an ice dragon.

      I don’t even know what you are talking about with Bran. In order for the White Walkers to be in range, they will be visible. Besides, they would probably hang back and let the wights go first.

      Do you know how much flammable material will be needed to cover an entire battlefield? Will they even be able to light it on fire in the snow?

      That attack is much easier said than done.

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    111. Young Dragon,

      Kneeling to Daenerys is a sign of weakness and ineptitude. Coming to a compromise that will satisfy the Northern lords concerns isn’t one. Moreover, Jon doesn’t have lands or armies. He is completely reliant on the Northern lords and his sister or on Daenerys’ armies and dragons. He could obviously plead with his new mistress to kill the mean lords opposing him but that leads to bad images all around. It makes Jon look like a weak servant and Daenerys look like a tyrant.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Eonwe,

      None of that matters. The northern lords pronounced Jon as king, and thus chose him to be the one who makes choices for them. They owe Jon the same loyalty they owed Ned. And I will ask again, did Ned, Tywin, or Robert run his decision by the other lords?

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    113. Young Dragon,

      How could he have seen it coming? Come off it! What’s the point in such contrarianism?

      Jon knows half the men in Castle Black hate him.

      They all disagreed, even one of his closest friends, with him bringing the Wildlings through The Wall.

      The man who he beat by a single vote to become Lord Commander, who has hated him for years, explicitly told him that he considered what he was doing was an insult to the Night’s Watch.

      When he returned from Hardhome everybody, including the boy who he’d been treating like a surrogate brother, clearly resented him.

      Jon himself recognises how much he has alienated his own men:

      s05e09
      Sam – “Every one of them is alive because of you and no-one else”
      Jon – “I don’t think that fact’s lost on them”

      s05e10
      Jon – “The first Lord Commander in history to sacrifice the lives of sworn brothers to save the lives of Wildlings. How does it feel to be friends with the most hated man in Castle Black?”

      Jon was far too naive and trusting and did nothing to protect himself despite knowing how unpopular his actions were.

      He cannot act the same way again unless his character development stalled completely.

      As for bending the knee to Daenerys, I’m not interested in all the platitudes about how or why he bent the knee. That’s not the point at issue.

      Here are the facts:

      – The Northern Lords don’t like the Targaryens, don’t want to be ruled by them and weren’t entirely convinced of Jon’s motives for meeting with Dany
      – Jon bent the knee to Daenerys without consulting his people, having been absent for months

      If you can’t accept how these two statements clash, then I really don’t know what to say.

      Jon has to have accounted for an adverse reaction, otherwise he is incompetent. Someone who can’t see danger on the horizon even after he and his brother were slaughtered by their own men in similar circumstances and he was explicitly warned against making similar miscalculations.

      It’d be utterly absurd.

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    114. Mr Derp,

      EXACTLY. That literally is the bottom line. Any one with concerns over the wellbeing of their kingdom and the world is going to ally themselves with a strong ally even if it puts them at odds with their own faction. Even if it was ill advised as a Northman, it was an adequate call as a member of humanity who wants to see life continue on. (Speaking about Jon of course)

      It will be interesting to see exactly how the North come to terms with Dany and her plight for rulership over the seven kingdoms. But they literally don’t have time to fight amongst themselves when the AOTD is encroaching.

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    115. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      So Jon made an unpopular decision that saved 2,000 lives, and he should have feared for his life? No, what the mutineers did was a complete overreaction. And you’re right, he did know those men. He knew them to proud and honorable men of the Night’s Watch. They were men he admired. He is in no way at fault for not seeing the betrayal coming.

      It’s not the northern lords decision. It’s Jon’s. They chose him as king because knows what’s best for the North. And as I responded to someone else, Ned never had to justify his decisions, nor did Tywin, nor did Robert.

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    116. Listen, strange women and men lying in beds on boats distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!

        Quote  Reply

    117. Edward,

      How about they don’t because Daenerys doesn’t end up as ruler of the North? Perhaps not even ruler of Westeros? Perhaps Westeros breaks up into smaller kingdoms?

      I’m not sure why people think that Daenerys on the Throne is the endgame or that there will even be an Iron Throne.

        Quote  Reply

    118. Young Dragon,

      I didn´t say the entire battlefield. I say lines along the battlefield and burn them so you can split a huge army into smaller ones.

      Bottlenecks have been used in history a lot. If you want a battle won by such tactic search for the battle of Marathon or Cannae.

      As for Bran. Have him use his power to know where the walkers are. In front of the army? Fire at will. They are in the rear. Send parties to the rear of the army of the undead and strike from the back.

      They have a dragon? Good guys still have two and the bigger of the three on their side. That happened in The Dance of Dragons once. The side with two dragons (and the biggest one) won against the side who had one.

      Did you knwo why nobody questioned Tywin? Because nobody wanted to end like the Tarbecks and Reynes. Killed from the oldest to the smallest babe.

      Did you know that when Robert arrived to Stormlarnds in the Rebellion and raised his bannners some of then declared for Aerys. Did you know that Robert had to defeat three stormlanders hos in one day in the Battle of Summerhall.

      Did you know that when Jon Arryn raised his banners not everyone answered the call? The Graftons of Gulltown (only city and port of the Vale) choose to side with Aerys and the rebells were force to take the city.

      Barbrey Dustin send the minimun levies to save Ned Stark. Roose Bolton from the very beginning sabotaged Robb´s campaign.

      Walder Frey was sworm to the Tullys yet he appeared on the Trident after the battle was won. Again when Tywin was torching the Riverlands and besieging Riverrun he took no part.

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    119. got_tv_fan,

      I never said her being ruler would be endgame. Anything I allude to next season, along with any one else, is all speculation. I’m just framing my argument based on Dany’s mission as a character and where things could go.

      I do not believe there’ll be an Iron Throne. I don’t think Dany will become a monarch either. I think she just wants a place to call home. And maybe she’ll figure that out by the end of season 8, or perhaps she’ll be dead so it won’t matter.

      The wait continues.

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    120. Edward,

      The thing is that the show has failed somewhat in such a keyplot of Daenery´s character. They have focused on the liberator persona, the breaker of chains, the one who will build a new world while book Daenerys sees the Iron Throne as a means to find finally a home. Someplace to belong while we as reader know that home is the house at Braavos.

      They have put Daenerys journey on getting on the IT while the real journey is searching for her own home.

      Where is the girl who says “If I look back I am lost”?

        Quote  Reply

    121. Young Dragon: So Jon made an unpopular decision that saved 2,000 lives, and he should have feared for his life?

      Yes.

      It’s specifically because of who those 2000 lives belonged to that he had reason to fear the reaction of his own men. I really don’t understand why this is apparently difficult to grasp.

      But the point at hand is that, having been murdered for making an unpopular decision and knowing that his brother, the previous king, was murdered having become unpopular, and with Jon having been explicitly warned against making similar mistakes, he now has no excuse for not having anticipated an adverse reaction to bending the knee.

      Nobody with any semblance of rationality should be disagreeing with that statement.

      If he is blindsided by a negative reaction to his decision, then the writers will have made him an incompetent.

      That’s the bottom line.

      It doesn’t matter about the White Walkers, or what Ned or Tywin would do, or anything else.

      The only question I am addressing is whether Jon will be written as being capable of learning from his experiences or whether his character development will have stalled.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Eonwe: As for Bran. Have him use his power to know where the walkers are. In front of the army? Fire at will. They are in the rear. Send parties to the rear of the army of the undead and strike from the back.

      Couldn’t the NK be a greenseer too, though? I honestly have no idea, but if he is, then the NK could easily outflank and evade, perhaps even come up with a preemptive strike so that the humans can’t use strategy as easily as you make it sound. It would cancel out the advantage Bran would give them.

      Of course, if the NK is not a greenseer then nevermind, but you do make it sound a lot easier than it is.

      And, from what I remember in Hardhome, the wights can basically pile on top of each other and continue to advance, so generic strategies like using a choking point wouldn’t work. Who knows though.

      BOTTOM LINE: Whatever happens will happen because the writers want it to happen. This isn’t reality. If D&D want to use the Vale’s Bloody Gate as a choking point to defeat the AOTD then they will. However, if they want to use the wights to pile on top of each other to get through it, they will. If D&D never want to see the Bloody Gate again, we won’t.

      Besides, as you yourself mentioned, the Greeks eventually lost Thermopylae, so that might not be the best example to use. Good strategy, but they still lost.

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    123. Edward,
      Mr Derp,

      I’m with you here. I wouldn’t even be surprised, if the Northern lords meet Dany with enthusiasm. The Wall is already breached, and if I were them I would be praying for Jon and Dany making it to Winterfell ASAP. Sure, if Bran fails to tell them about the Wall before Jon’s arrival, some whinging can be expected. But not all that much. After all, how Sansa called? They follow the strong, and no reasonable man or woman would turn away an ally with a strong army and fire-breathing airforce with the NK on their doorstep.
      IMO, Jon’s parentage reveal and Dany’s reaction to that will produce a lot more drama than the Northern lords. If Dany reacts in a wrong way (for instance, takes it as a ruse), it’s probable that grievances of the Northern Lords may amount into something. But now, they are just a bunch of scared people whinging to suppress their fear, nothing more.

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    124. Eonwe,

      It’s definirely not as prominent as the books, but I actually thought it was a nice reference to her wanting to be “home” when she remarked that Dragonstone didn’t feel much like it last season in 7×03. There’s been little hints of it in the show.
      But you’re right, the show hasn’t alluded to it that much to assume it’s going to to be a part of her arc in season 8.

      It could manifest early in the season as she gets used to being in Winterfell, which should be extremely foreign to her. They could slowly tailor it into the narrative as the season progresses. It wouldn’t be as satisfying as the book since GRRM has always maintained Dany as that “vulnerable” girl in his narrative. But it’ll still be a satisfying conclusion to her show arc since I believe Dany as an entity and symbol is bigger than being a monarch or tyrant. After all she sacrificed a dragon for the safety of Jon and the gang (even if she didn’t expect it). Her arc is the one that I believe is the most mysterious going into the final season.

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    125. Mr Derp,

      As I said in other post the same tactic was used by the greeks in Marathon and they won. Annibal created with his troops a chokepoint that led to the anvil of his cavalry decimating and entire roman army.

      But you´re right in that what the writers want will happen. We have Battle of the Bastards and Jon not getting hit by any arrow or Jon surviving hypothermia last season.

      The corpse mountain? That´s something that can´t happen in a battle in an open field.

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    126. Edward,

      Who is gonna set King´s Landing on fire? Cersei? Dany? Tyrion? Jon? Sansa? Bran? Arya? Davos? Some random dude who tripped on a wildire pot?

      That´s the question I want answered.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Inga,

      Damn you totally read my mind.

      But seriously though, I agree with your prediction. I believe Jon’s claim to the IT will cause more political upheaval than anything else. After all, the Northern Lords are never awareness of all of the facts before they start their excessive whinging. They haven’t been exposed to the AOTD so it’ll be everyone else’s informed word against their ignorance. And yes, that’s typical Northernmen discourse, but they can’t reject an ally that’ll be their key to survival. They literally don’t have enough men or resources to refuse. They’ll blow off steam as a formality and for pride, but I doubt it’ll be a huge source of drama in season 8.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Eonwe,

      What’s the likeliness in your opinion that we actually see Dany turn into a tyrant after being told Jon has the true claim. There’s a sizable group of fans who truly feel it’s Dany’s destiny to inherit her father’s madness. I just feel like the show runners wouldn’t have set up that convoluted beyond the wall trip and have Dany save them just for her to finally buckle into her worst impulses a few episodes from the finale.

        Quote  Reply

    129. Inga,

      What happens after the war? They are justified in their concerns that Dany is a tyrant. I think they depose Jon even prior to learning he is a Targaryen.

      As for the parentage reveal, it will turn into a big nothingburger. Jon loves kneeling so much and has absolutely no backbone on the show, so he will just kneel again. Problem solved.

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    130. Inga: But now, they are just a bunch of scared people whinging to suppress their fear, nothing more.

      I’m not so sure. Sophie says Sansa is dealing with a “new threat” and a “threat to who she wants to be around.” In my mind that can only be Dany. Plus, Sophie would be describing a season arc. Not just something resolved in a few episodes.

      I wouldn’t base my predictions on anything Jon thinks at this point. I think his plan to get Dany to help them is going to cause more problems than it solves. We’ve already seen that with wight dragons, Walls falling, and Dany burning the food. Jon is essentially bringing 100,000 jars of wildfire right to his home and he’s hoping he doesn’t trip.

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    131. got_tv_fan: As for the parentage reveal, it will turn into a big nothingburger. Jon loves kneeling so much and has absolutely no backbone on the show, so he will just kneel again. Problem solved.

      This is funny. But I think Dany would want him to marry her to neutralize his claim. Kneeling won’t do it. Its funny because if Jon marries Dany then there’s no point in writing fAegon who was raised as a Targ. Jon being the “Targ who isn’t a Targ” would be pointless if he just ends up doing what he would have done if he was raised a Targ. If that makes sense.

        Quote  Reply

    132. MMJ,

      Sansa is a difrent story. In a way, Dany is a threat to her position, and she may see her as a threat to Jon and/or the North, as well. But all in all, Dany is better that Cersei and she is their only hope to deal with her, not just the AOTD. So, Sansa will have to cooperate until the war is won – at least the same way Cersei cooperates with Euron. And during the war Dany will have plenty of time to show who she really is (and I think her good heart will prevail against all odds). And Dany’s armies will be a problem primarily, because the NK will claim a bir portion of that, but again its not like witholding those amies would be a solution.

      As for Sophie’s interviews they have always been misleading to say the least. Before last season, she hyped a major conflict with Jon that turned into nothing but Sansa being occasionally awful as usual:)

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    133. MMJ,

      So in your mind it will be both kneeling and forced marriage at the point of a dragon. Yeah, I get that- like the forced marriage of Sansa. As long as Jon remains her submissive servant, Dany would enjoy the process of turning a Targaryen heir into her powerless consort. It would save her headaches and Jon could do worthless things in KL like embroidery and sammich making while he might be dangerous in the North.

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    134. Eonwe,

      Eonwe, I’m going to sound like Debbie Downer but I was really pleased that “if I look back I am lost” was cut – that was a book Dany phrase that really annoyed me.

        Quote  Reply

    135. Mr Derp: I’m more interested to see the looks on their faces when the AOTD comes knockin’
      Something tells me the fickle Northern lords will be a bit more willing to negotiate with Dany once they see the AOTD. The same Northern lords who claim to love the North but were apparently unwilling to stop the Boltons from running it through fear and intimidation.

      They all need to ban together to fight the AOTD, but honestly, if Lord Glover and the like can’t get themselves to do that then it’s their own fault if they don’t survive.

      Most likely the Lords will say they’ll fight for their castles and holdfasts but they won’t bend the knee to her or march south to take back KL for her.

        Quote  Reply

    136. got_tv_fan: So in your mind it will be both kneeling and forced marriage at the point of a dragon. Yeah, I get that- like the forced marriage of Sansa. As long as Jon remains her submissive servant, Dany would enjoy the process of turning a Targaryen heir into her powerless consort. It would save her headaches and Jon could do worthless things in KL like embroidery and sammich making while he might be dangerous in the North.

      Yup it’s Game of Thrones Season 8: The Search for Jon’s Snow’s Spine. Will he find it? All he has to do is get more of the Lords’ support and ride a dragon to fight her. It would be an epic season if the two heroes go to war against each other.

        Quote  Reply

    137. MMJ: It would be an epic season if the two heroes go to war against each other.

      If they’re ending the show how the books will do you really think that’s what George has in mind? One main reason why I have a hard time buying the idea is that he already has a quite thoroughly written history of a Targaryen family war in Dance of the Dragons. I can’t quite see him going back to that well for the ending of ASoIaF. I’m hoping that his story ends with something more fresh and give good reason for following the footsteps of J & D for the entire journey.

        Quote  Reply

    138. MMJ,

      I don’t think she’ll have to force Jon to marry her, he seems to be in love with her and vice versa. If anything their marriage would be a partnership of equals and would unite the realm. As for Sansa, I don’t see Dany being a threat to her unless she isn’t aware of Jon’s true identity right away – then she might think the KITN has a girlfriend who might want Winterfell but I don’t think with 6 episodes they have much time for that sort of teenage angst. I think Tyrion and Cersei will be a bigger threat to Sansa..the best way to hurt Jon would be via his sisters (now cousins). We still don’t know what Tyrion promised her during their last meeting that was left partly unseen by the audience. I expect something sinister is going to happen as a result of that mysterious missing scene and it may involve Sansa. Pure speculation on my part I admit.

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    139. Mr Derp:
      MMJ,
      Which will inevitably lead to their downfall.

      Why is that? I’m saying they’ll fight the White Walkers. They’ll fight for their homes. But they won’t declare Dany their queen.

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    140. Clob: If they’re ending the show how the books will do you really think that’s what George has in mind? One main reason why I have a hard time buying the idea is that he already has a quite thoroughly written history of a Targaryen family war in Dance of the Dragons. I can’t quite see him going back to that well for the ending of ASoIaF. I’m hoping that his story ends with something more fresh and give good reason for following the footsteps of J & D for the entire journey.

      GRRM confirmed that a second Dance of Dragons will happen and it isnt necessarily referring to Dany’s invasion of Westeros. The popular idea among the fandom is that this means that it will be Dany vs. fAegon, but I disagree with that notion. Mainly because 1) it has to be about a war between two closely related Targaryen family members and fAegon doesn’t apply, and 2) Part of Dany’s invasion of Westeros could be fighting with fAegon so that would rule him out.

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    141. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I hear you.

      • I think I wrote earlier that Jon should know by now that especially when it comes to controversial or unpopular decisions, he’s got to sell them to his followers first. Taking a giant leap of faith that the Northerners will just love Dany when they meet her (because…. ????) is unrealistic and imprudent.

      • Surrendering the North’s sovereignty when he didn’t have to and bending the knee without even telling his people first was asking for trouble. There was no rush.

      • He had the resources, the facts, and the “campaign staff” to persuade the Northerners of the necessity of an alliance with Dany; and then, afterwards they could do the hard work of persuading them to support his intent to “bend the knee” to Dany.

      • The thing is, he had those resources and “campaign staff” at his disposal. Sansa’s got clout with the Vale. She’s related to the Lord of the Vale by (Tully) blood. After BoB, Jon acknowledged the KotV “came for you.” Jon could’ve caucused with Sansa first, explained his reasoning, and then implored her to support his plans. He’s got Davos, the most accomplished communicator on the show. He has a squad of elite warriors who could give first-hand accounts of the existential threat they’re facing. (More on that later.)

      • With scars on his chest to remind him of the necessity of winning over the people he’s supposed to be leading, it was difficult to rationalize his unilateral shipboard declarations.

      • But most of all, a smart leader would show his lords and bannermen respect by alerting them of his proposed decision before implementing it, listening to their objections, and trying to win them over. “Because I said so” is a valid reason for parents enforcing bedtimes on children. Not so much for a new monarch taking an action he had to know would anger his people and undermine his own leadership. the

      • By contrast (and an example of what I believed was effective writing), check out Cersei’s “Mad King’s Daughter” speech in S7e2 to get wavering lords to take her side, bolstered by Jaime’s appeal to Randyll Tarly. Her speech used actual facts to her advantage; she showed respect for her audience; she gave them reasons to ally with her despite their misgivings:

      ———
      Cersei: “If the Mad King’s daughter takes the Iron Throne, she’ll destroy the realm as we know it.
      Some of you are bannermen of House Tyrell.
      But House Tyrell is in open rebellion against the crown. With their help, the Mad King’s daughter has ferried an army of savages to our shores mindless Unsullied soldiers who will destroy your castles and your holdfasts, Dothraki heathens who will burn your villages to the ground, rape and enslave your women, and butcher your children without a second thought. This is how Olenna Tyrell rewards centuries of service and loyalty.
      You all remember the Mad King. You remember the horrors he inflicted upon his people. His daughter is no different. In Essos, her brutality is already legendary. She crucified hundreds of noblemen in Slaver’s Bay. And when she grew bored of that, she fed them to her dragons.
      It is my solemn duty to protect the people, and I will.
      But I need your help, my lords. We must stand together, all of us if we hope to stop her.”

      Lord: “She has three full-grown dragons, Your Grace. The same as Aegon when he conquered the Seven Kingdoms. How do you propose to stop them?”
      Cersei: “We are currently at work on a solution, my lord.
      (Afterwards, Jaime meets with Randyll Tarly)
      Jaime: “Lord Tarly.”
      Randyll: “Ser Jaime. I believe you know my son.”
      Jaime: “Rickard, isn’t it?”
      Dickon: “Dickon.”
      Jaime: “That’s it.”
      (Addressing Randyll): “Thank you for coming. The other lords of the Reach look to you for guidance, now more than ever. They might not have come if you hadn’t.”
      Randyll: “If my queen summons me, I answer the call. And I’ve heard what she does to those who defy her.”
      Jaime: “You ride for Horn Hill today?”
      Randyll: “I have an army to mobilize. Won’t be long before the fighting starts.”
      Jaime: “And which side will you be fighting for? You were the only man to defeat Robert Baratheon in battle. Not even Rhaegar Targaryen could do that.”
      Randyll: “It’s a long ride back to the Reach, Ser Jaime. How may I serve?”
      Jaime: “I want you to be my ranking general in the wars to come. I want you to swear allegiance to Cersei and I want you to help me destroy her enemies. All her enemies. Including Olenna Tyrell.”
      Randyll: “I’m a Tarly. That name means something. We’re not oathbreakers. We’re not schemers. We don’t stab our rivals in the back or cut their throats at weddings. I swore an oath to House Tyrell.”
      Jaime: “You swore an oath to the crown as well, Lord Tarly.”
      Randyll: “I’ve known Olenna since I was a child.”
      Jaime: “She was a great woman once. Now she’s broken. She wants revenge so badly, she brought the Dothraki to our shores. The Dothraki in Westeros for the first time in history.
      I know you don’t like my sister, but you have to make a choice. Do you fight with us or with foreign savages and eunuchs? When the war is won, the queen will need a new Warden of the South. I can think of no better man than Randyll Tarly.”
      —————
      I’ve got a (tinfoil) explanation for why they had Jon behave the way he did (and not because all the blood in his brain had drained to another organ in his body).

      [to be cont.]

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    142. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      (Cont. from above)

      • Before I forget: Jon’s PR campaign should have included an encore by Captured Wight, or they should’ve bagged two while on the stupid wight hunt. As Tyrion explained, even people who “believe” him when he warns of the imminent threat of NK and AotD have a tough time wrapping their heads around the reality of it.

      • As far as I recall, NONE of the Northerners gathered at WF have seen a WW or a wight. (What was it that Dany said after the Frozen Lake battle? Something like: “You have to see it to know. Now I know.”) Anyway, letting Captured Wight loose in the Great Hall of WF – and causing Lord Glover to involuntarily empty his bladder into his britches – would have gone a long way in convincing the people to forget about thrones, crowns and titles. and defer to Jon’s judgment and experience.

      • Assuming for the sake of argument that the Northerners have trouble taking at face value BirdBrainBran’s accounts of long-distance visions of 100,000 wights & WWs on the march; and that they are still wary of the veracity of their new Free Folk “friends” about surviving the horrors of Hardhome, first-hand accounts by a varied group of seasoned warriors like Sandor Clegane and Gendry (with Arya to vouch for their credibility) and Jorah Mormont about Dany rescuing them from the AotD at the Frozen Lake could have gone a long way in convincing the Northerners of the magnitude of the threat – and Dany’s good intentions.

      • Otherwise, from their pre-existing prejudices. the Northeners are more likely to buy into Cersei’s narrative of “the Mad King’s Daughter” and savages who’ve invaded their country to burn, rape. butcher and enslave them all.

      • Without any PR campaign, it only makes sense that neither Jon nor his “foreign whore” girlfriend are going to get a warm welcome.

      • Jon had to know the adverse consequences of “bending the knee” – and did it anyway when he didn’t have to.

      • Even Dany is concerned about the consequences. She asks him about it, and his answer is surprisingly lame.
      (From S7e6):

      Dany: “What about those who swore allegiance to you?”
      Jon: “They’ll all come to see you for what you are.”
      Dany: “I hope I deserve it.”
      Jon: “You do.”
      ——-

      [Sorry… to be concluded in a minute. Keyboard slowing…]

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    143. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      (Cont. from above; and sorry so long-winded):

      • As you observed, there’s no longer any excuse for Jon unilaterally making unpopular decisions without foreseeing their adverse consequences. By itself, unnecessarily subjugating the North (again) to a southern ruler – a Targaryen no less – is a setup for “For the Watch Redux”, i.e., bitter dissension in which at least half the North wants to get rid of him and a minority remain begrudgingly loyal to him.

      • His supposed conviction that “They’ll all come to see you for what you are” is either delusional or reckless.

      • So the question is, why would the show portray him this way?

      • I’m now almost certain one of my (many) tinfoil theories from a while back will actually come to pass. One or both of the following will happen in early S8s1 before Jon even gets to WF:

      (a) Even though I’ve felt that Sam and Jon – like Ned – would realize that continuing to keep Jon’s parentage a secret would be the wisest course of action, they’ll disclose it or someone will overhear them;

      (b) The contents of the scroll Sansa received signed by Jon as “Warden of the North” revealing that he had bent the knee, will leak out.

      • The disgruntled faction will label him a traitor or a total idiot; depose him in his absence; and launch an incursion into WF to raid its grain stores so the Dothraki and Unsullied won’t deplete their food supply.

      • During this attack on WF, the invaders will set fires to serve as as a distraction and keep the defenders occupied during the plundering. Fighting inside and outside the Walks of WF between the defenders and intruders m will erupt into the first “battle” of S8.

      • Right in the the middle of all this pandemonium, NK and his posse will crash the party.

      That’s my theory and Im sticking to it.

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    144. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      It’s difficult to grasp because every leader in history has made unpopular decisions. Alliser Thorne and the other officers served at the Wall for years under Lord Commander Mormons. Will you have me believe that they were content with all of his decisions? That doesn’t seem very likely, and yet they didn’t kill him. Jon thought they were all on the same page and saw the White Walkers as the bigger threat. He underestimated their hatred for the wildlings.

      Robb wasn’t murdered because he made unpopular decisions. He was murdered because he broke a marriage pact.

      Jon knows the northern lords won’t be happy, but they’d be fools to try anything. For one, they’re hopelessly outnumbered. Second, the army of the dead is at their doorstep. Besides, by what right do they have to be upset? Most of them either fought against the Starks or did nothing to assist them.

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    145. Ten Bears,

      I don’t really mind when people say bad writing, as they’re only stating their opinion. It’s the incorrect use of the terms plot hole and fan fiction that I find annoying.

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    146. Young Dragon,

      I think we’re on the same page. “Bad writing” is overused and misused. Plot holes, faulty plot logic, a character’s inexplicable behavior or sudden lapses in intelligence – those are not necessarily “bad writing.”

      ( The writing can be exquisite but a scene can still suck for other reasons. “Bad writing” shouldn’t be a catch-all for every grievance.)

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    147. I had assumed the Nights King was all but confirmed to be a greensayer given how the beyond the wall episode went down where he seemingly waited with spears in hand for the dragons to arrive. If he isn’t then I would be suprised, also given his interaction with Bran where he grabs him during a dream.

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    148. Primary suspects will surely be either the Nights King or Dany (enraged at Jon). I cannot imagine either Jon (assuming he rides a dragon) or Bran (assuming he wargs a dragon) doing it. Especially given the filming we saw in Dubrovnik

      (where Jon and Cersei are together in Kings Landing.

      which was reported by this site with photos.

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    149. In fact, I can imagine that Daario comes back for a small surprising scene and there is already a small hint in season 6 that this might happen – particularly when he replies to Jorah that he had never a discipline. Therefore, it is possible that he will not follow the commands to stay and rule Meeren and he will instead infiltrate into Golden Company to reach Westeros. Maybe in attempt to help Dany at first point. But later the information about Jon+Dany cannot escape his attention. At this point, other two things that can be inferred from previous GoT, came to my mind: 1) Daario do things for love, 2) Daario is able to suddenly switch the sides as he killed without problems other two co-leaders of Second Sons. So…at the end I can imagine to see Daario in this context (just speculation): As everybody expects, at some point in the last season Danny will give birth to a child. This has to happen aside the main battle-zone, likely on Dragonstone. There can be a small force of Golden Company to be sent to kill Dany and the child and everybody else in the room. The scene might to some little extent resemble Tower of Joy theme (as history is often repeating). The small force of Golden Company will indeed make it in some smart Tyrion-like way into Dragonstone and will fight through the guards and make it to the room with Dany at the time she gives a birth. The leader of this GC force will put off the helmet and it will be Daario. Next, it is up to your imagination what can happen. The bitter ending might be that Daario kills Dany and the child along with Jorah/Davos/whoever..and very soon afterwards will be smashed by dragon sensing the dead of mother or killed by someone else. In a better scenario, someone will escape with the born child. 5-10 min scene, but enough to do a great job. And it will also fit the prophecy that Dany will be betrayed three times, 3rd for love.

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    150. Ten Bears,

      While we’re at it can we also bin “Dumb and Dumber” and “lazy writing”? If somebody read the books and then was disappointed in the adaptation of the show and then decides they don’t want to watch it I am not going to belittle them for that decision*. Obviously I’m not a dramatist but I think I’d be very loathe to undertake the adaptation of an unfinished series of novels. I’m grateful to the two Ds for making the show – I very much doubt I’d have checked the books out if I hadn’t been intrigued by the show first. Not that that totally excuses the writers if they occasionally make mistakes but there are surely ways to express a grievance without using the same old stock phrases ad nauseam.

      * It would be nice if some of the folk who only have time for the books would show a bit of courtesy to people who are in the show for the long haul though. Now before anybody jumps on me from a great height (metaphorically) I’m not saying all of the contingent who greatly prefer the books are discourteous. I have seen things like “stupid” “fanboyz” (I suppose that would also encompass “fangurlz”?) – though not necessarily on this site, though even here there have been moments, though I will give credit to the “mods” at WotW – they are usually efficient.

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    151. Jon being stabbed was changed in the adaptation due to screen time. There’s plenty of shadowy actions of book Jon that ends in serious oath breaking.

      Robb murder wasn’t only by breaking the pact with the Freys. There was the mistake of Theon, the Kastark matter and the Boltons undermining (Roose) or directly betraying (Ramsay) him.

      But Robb had the advantage of two whole seasons building his downfall whereas Jon only had one.

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    152. Since the topic already reared its head here…

      The policy of GoT to introduce character “subs” or replacements has been, IMO, not so bad. However, the one I found most disturbing, I don’t believe was mentioned earlier amongst the ones of Daario, the Mountain, etc. I had a harder time wrapping my head around the one of the two Lannister nephews, cousins, whatever they were, that was skewered by the Karstarks (forgive spelling) as retaliation for the acts of the Kingslayer…then he shows up a few short episodes later as Tommin, first of his name, blah, blah, title, title, you know how the damn thing goes. Thoughts?

      A man is just saying…

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    153. Nerdvana Targaryean,

      Dead Lannister turned into Tommen who had a sex scene with Margaery. Don’t forget child Myrcella turned into a teen full of melodrama.

      My favorite. Random old dude turned into the great Max Von Sydow.

      Even Night King suffered a recasting.

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    154. Young Dragon,

      Sorry, but you’re just being contrarian. Jon didn’t believe they were all on the same page. That’s nonsense. The quotes and examples I’ve already provided prove that.

      And I don’t know why you’re pretending that the decision to let the Wildlings through The Wall was just an ordinary decision, like those that Lord Commander Mormont made for years.

      It’s very explicit on the show that this is a hugely controversial decision that strikes at the very heart and history of the Night’s Watch and all that its members dedicated and laid down their lives for.

      Jon knows this and should have been more attuned to the potential ramifications. Or is mutiny an alien concept in Westeros?

      Oh, nope… no, it’s not… because Jon’s own brother was murdered by his own men!

      And no, Robb wasn’t murdered simply because he broke a marriage pact. Or have you decided, in contrarian fashion, to completely ignore the role of the Boltons?

      Robb was losing the war. There was dissent in the ranks. Thousands had already deserted (the Karstarks) – quote, “Or should I say, the King who lost The North”. And Roose Bolton, his own lieutenant, conspired with Walder Frey and Tywin Lannister to murder him.

      Walder Frey: “It must’ve been torture following that stupid boy all over the country”
      Roose: “He ignored my advice at every turn. If he’d been a trifle less arrogant…”

      And in Season 6 we were given a further insight into just how unpopular Robb had become when Jon and Sansa went to rally support from the likes of Lord Glover (“And where was King Robb when the Ironborn attacked this castle? When they threw my wife and children in prison and brutalised and killed our subjects”).

      And that resentment lingers, as shown in S7 – “We called your brother King. And then he rode south and lost his kingdom”

      Jon. Knows. All. Of. This.

      He either takes account of it or he will have been written as an incompetent who is incapable of learning from his and others’ experiences.

      It could be argued that he’s already failed in that regard. Sansa, Bran and Arya could’ve been butchered in their sleep the same night the raven arrived informing them of his decision to bend the knee. We know for certain that Littlefinger used that news as ammunition in his attempts to depose Jon.

      So did Jon weigh up the potential consequences and decide that he had faith in Sansa to protect herself and her siblings? Or did he decide he could be absolutely certain that the Northern Lords could be trusted? Or did he just not consider the potential consequences, despite past experiences?

      That’s the sort of thing I want answered in Season 8 if Jon’s character is to retain credibility!

      Again, I must stress that I am not arguing about the merits of Jon’s decision to bend the knee or the logic/merits of any adverse reaction from the Northern Lords. I am arguing about Jon’s ability or lack thereof to learn from his experiences and account for the potential consequences.

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    155. Ten Bears,

      Agreed on pretty much everything. I like the comparison to Cersei’s sales pitch to the southern lords.

      I think Jon actually managed to sell the need to meet with Daenerys pretty well. He listened to their concerns. Responded with a passionate pitch to justify his reasoning and his commitment to defending The North. And made a statement by leaving Sansa – “the only Stark in Winterfell” and one who shares the lords’ concerns – in charge and publicly giving her his seal of approval.

      It’s what happened in the meantime that is a problem.

      Primarily being absentee and out of contact for weeks. Then sending word out of the blue that he’s surrendered the Northern crown.

      And then we get onto him risking his life beyond The Wall – Davos clearly stated that this was reckless for a King.
      The consequences of his foray beyond The Wall – i.e. The Wall’s destruction.
      The failure to get the Lannisters to join the war regardless.
      And his romantic dalliance with a Targaryen queen / “foreign whore”.

      If Jon is revealed to have made all these decisions/mistakes in earnest, single-mindedly focused on the White Walkers, with no thought for the political consequences, then it would simply illustrate a lack of character growth.

      Jon must demonstrate that he knew the risks, accounted for the consequences and has a plan to address any fallout in order to retain any credibility.

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    156. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Sorry, but it’s not being contrarian because I disagree with your opinion. Do you know who else made an unusual decision? Lord Commander Mormont when he took a large force North, despite the dangers the Night’s Watch would face. The officers of the Night’s Watch didn’t stab him to stop him from going, did they? So, no, Jon had no way of knowing that his decision would lead to the honorable and noble men of the Night’s Watch to murder him.

      You clearly haven’t been paying attention. Robb died because he broke his marriage pact. That, in turn, lost him a powerful ally. This, including Stannis’s defeat and the new Tyrell/Lannister alliance made the war unwinnable. That is why the Boltons jumped ship, nothing more.

      Butchered in their sleep? That has to be the most asinine comment I’ve ever seen. Have you forgotten that Jon and Sansa are the ones who freed the North in the first place, while the vast majority of them stood on the sidelines? Don’t you remember how they all admitted that they made a huge mistake and begged for the Starks forgiveness? Do you honestly think that the lords are going to betray/butcher the Starks at the first sign of trouble? No, they’ve clearly learned their lesson and now no it’s the Starks that will protect them and have their best interests at heart.

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    157. Mr Derp,

      I found it funny because I was watching the episode (was 3 or 4 Am here in Spain) and I was “Wait, didn’t this guy die five minutes ago? Nah, I’m just being nitpicky”

      Then came beyond the episode and we are show that it was indeed the same dude getting killed. And I was “OMG! It was the same guy! Just like Steven Seagal’s movies!”

      And so I became a fan of the wildling redshirt.

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    158. Young Dragon,

      Having a different opinion is not contrarian. Constantly making disingenuous statements that aren’t based in fact or reason or completely miss the point altogether simply for the sake of disagreeing is contrarian.

      And you’ve just gone and done it again by comparing Lord Commander Mormont’s decision to ride in numbers beyond the wall – not a controversial decision – to Jon’s landmark decision to break thousands of years of tradition by allowing their sworn enemies through The Wall.

      There was no dissent over Mormont’s decision exhibited on-screen. Whereas they went to great lengths to depict the dissent and resentment over Jon’s decision.

      They are incomparable.

      Yet Lord Commander Mormont was ultimately murdered by his own men, following days of growing disharmony among his men, having been defeated in the field and struggling to survive the journey back to The Wall.

      Which is just yet another clear example of the potential for mutiny which Jon should have taken account of!

      And you have the gall to call anything I’ve stated ‘asinine’ when pretty much every point you make is utterly inaccurate or hypocritical? Jeez…

      And now, despite me having provided examples and quotes from the characters themselves, which exhibit their discontent with Robb’s rule as a contributing factor to his downfall, you’re still going to insist that it was simply because he broke a marriage pact? Nothing more?

      And, of course, his decision to break that marriage pact was not at all symptomatic of the short-sighted decision-making that fostered discontent among his followers. No, no, not at all. It’s not like any of his men specifically said that… errr… “I think you lost this war the day you married her” – Rickard Karstark.

      And once again, you launch into another round of declaring how the Northern Lords should think this or should do that. All these opinions, which are irrelevant to the point I’ve made.

      Again. It doesn’t matter what I believe or you believe.

      It is what Jon should consider based on all that he has seen and which has happened to him and whether or not he has done so, which is the question.

      At this point it’s hard to discern whether you’re trolling or whether you’re simply incapable of reason and comprehension, such is your complete inability to simply address the point at hand or offer any sort of cogent evidence or reasoning for your disagreement.

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    159. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      What Lord Commander Mormont did was unprecedented and unusual, so the situations are very much comparable. Yes, Mormont was eventually killed, but by rapists and murderers, not respected officers of the Night’s Watch. Jon said it himself, he admired those men. People generally don’t fear men that they admire.

      If you were to ask any random person on the street why Robb was killed, I’d be willing to bet they would tell you that it was because he broke his marriage pact to Walder Frey. I mean, Lord Frey couldn’t have made that any more clear at the Red Wedding, and I have no idea how anyone could come to a different conclusion.

      I’m sorry if my calling your comment asinine offended you, but you should really think hard before posting. Your post about how the northern lords would butcher the Stark kids in their beds was ridiculous, especially after the season 6 finale. What in that scene makes you think that the northern lords would ever betray the Starks again?

      By the way, calling someone a troll and contrarian simply because you’re losing an argument is immature.

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    160. Young Dragon,

      I don’t think the Northern lords will butcher the Stark children in their beds because I suspect that Sansa will manage to calm them down and correct her “brother’s” boneheaded move. However, I also don’t think they will ever be willing to be servants of Daenerys Targaryen. She’ll have to burn the North to ashes if she wants their fealty. Giving Dany the North, especially in the emotional, spur of the moment way Jon “knelt,” was an awful decision and no one has been able to give me a good, logical argument for his actions. She was going to help without him kneeling and even questioned his decision.

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    161. Re: the Northern Lords again

      I’m not sure why the focus is on the Northern Lords, who don’t even have a scene where they question whether the threat is real or not. They question Jon’s methods. They’re afraid of Mad King’s daughter, with dragons. They’re afraid of being caught between ICE and FIRE.

      I don’t think S8 is going to focus on the Northern Lords as much as it will focus on a main character, Dany, who is the one who will be scrutinized as worthy enough to be their ruler. It’s her actions that matter more than anything the Northern Lords will do. She should be satisfied with saving people’s lives and shouldn’t expect prizes just for doing it.

      There may be an issue in the way they are written – because it seems like people equate them to the stubborn, foolish, and petty southern lords fighting amongst each other and ignoring the Others. These guys aren’t the same as Aliser Thorne and Janos Slynt or Tyrells vs. Lannisters. They have legit grievances that go back to the family members they lost fighting for Robb’s cause and in Robert’s Rebellion. For example, Lyanna Mormont has grievances because her mother died for Robb’s independence and Jorah betrayed House Mormont. She should have a say in what monarch she wants to follow.

      Jon needs to tell them: You can fight the White Walkers. But you don’t have to bend the knee to the Dragon Queen. This is the best logical way for him to fix it.

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    162. Young Dragon,

      Walder Frey would never have planned the Red Wedding whithout Tywin Lannister backing. Robb breaking the pact is the tip of the iceberg. There is more within the script that the main or public season.

      It is like Robert´s Rebellion. They put the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna kidnapping as the main reason. But when you pay close attention to the events you discover that what really began it were Aerys actions.

      George loves writing POV traps like that and sometimes he can be subtle, sometimes he goes for a punch. Why Jaime Lannister killed Aerys? You are first presented with the picture of Jaime doing it as the pinnacle of Lannister treachery during the sack of King´s Landing. Until you get to hear the story from Jaime himself. Who killed Jon Arryn? The Lannisters to cover some complot against Robert. Enters Littlefinger as the mastermind behind it.

      George likes to garden the story. Which means that those little details whitin the text are keys for the big moments and twists like Red Wedding, Three Eyed Raven and such.

      Which reminds me. Who put into Joffrey´s head the idea of beheading Ned?

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    163. MMJ,

      Funny when you talk about being caught between ICE and FIRE. George in an interview said that the Others (WW) and the dragons are the fire and ice of the series. The unnatural threats who nobody paids attention because they are fighting for the Iron Throne so they can´t see the bigger picture.

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    164. Eonwe,

      Littlefinger. He has means, motive, and opportunity. I also think he may have hired faeless man to kill Ned in case Joffrey didn’t follow through.
      On a re-watch, Whrn Joffrey says “bring me his head” most of the people around him try to make him take it back. But Littlefinger just standstill at the bottom left of the screen, smirking. He must’ve known it was coming.

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    165. Eonwe: Funny when you talk about being caught between ICE and FIRE. George in an interview said that the Others (WW) and the dragons are the fire and ice of the series. The unnatural threats who nobody paids attention because they are fighting for the Iron Throne so they can´t see the bigger picture.

      Yes, I’ve seen that interview. Those threats are also mentioned in the original outline. He also mentioned Philip of Macedonia, who was amassing armies while everyone was squabbling among each other. Philip was assassinated by his own bodyguard which is exactly what happened to Aerys. Will history repeat for Dany?

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    166. Eonwe:
      MMJ,

      End like Philip’s son Alexander? A conqueror unmatched in battle who died young poisoned by his own generals?

      Yup, either the father or the son. This is not a nice parallel to have, lol. Not looking good for the Dragon mom.

        Quote  Reply

    167. MMJ,

      Robb too is based on Alexander. Specially as the undefeated general who won his battles with brilliants tactics and strategies and ultimately betrayed by his own men.

      Nice move on Robb pissing off a House who gave him nearly 4000 men and whose heir died under his command.

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    168. Eonwe,
      Which is why I’m just so confused about Jon and how they are writing him. Robb illustrated how the way you play your cards in a romantic relationship and keep your men happy is just as important as battlefield tactics. And, D&D said Jon has to live with the memory of his own murder – wouldn’t both of these things make him act a bit more cautious on such a high stakes mission?

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    169. Young Dragon,

      I’ve lost no argument, since you haven’t even tried to engage with the point I’ve argued. Instead you’ve chosen to keep deflecting onto irrelevant side issues, which I will no longer entertain.

      It’s pretty simple. I believe Jon’s decision-making should be informed by his past experiences in order for him to remain a credible ruler and protagonist. His previous failure to adequately prepare for all eventualities, despite ample warning signs and glaring examples of what might occur having befallen those he loved and admired, resulted in his own murder.

      You apparently believe that even after events such as the mutinous murder of Jeor Mormont; the murderous betrayal of his own brother Robb, the previous King in the North; and his own murder at the hands of his own men, Jon should pay no regard to previous experiences and the potential for negative consequences amounting from the decisions he makes.

      I’ll say one thing for you, it’s an interesting choice of hill upon which to die.

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    170. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      To the best of my knowledge, I’ve responded to each and every one of your arguments. It was you who chose to engage in personal attacks rather than disagree in a respectful manner, not me.

      There is nothing to learn. Robb was killed because he broke a marriage pact and was fighting an unwinnable war. Lord Mormont was killed by rapists and murderers who wanted out of the Night’s Watch. Jon was killed because the officers of the Night’s Watch couldn’t get over their wildling hate. The northern lords had just declared for the Starks and had expressed their guilt about not fighting for them. They’ve clearly learned their lesson and in no way would betray the Starks again. Jon also knew that Sansa was there to keep the northern lords in line. Unless, of course, you still have that crazy notion that they would butcher the Stark kids in their sleep.

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    171. Young Dragon,

      They have every right to depose Jon. What he did was treasonous. And I’m sure why Sansa has to go along with her brother’s stupid political decisions. She should just allow him to get out of the political mess that he made by himself. Why should she have to always bail him out?

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    172. got_tv_fan,

      No, as King in the North, Jon has every right to do with his domain however he pleases. There’s nothing treasonous about it, just like it wasn’t treason when Torrhen Stark bent the knee all those years before.

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    173. Young Dragon,

      Of course, he doesn’t have that right. LF pointed out that the lords can depose him. Jon is constrained by what his lords want and they don’t want to submit to a Targaryen tyrant.

      And Torrhen knelt because Aegon was threatening the North with dragons. It was a complying reason. Unless you want to argue that Daenerys plans to burn down the North, Jon didn’t have a similarly compelling reason. In fact, he doesn’t have any reason. The only argument that I’ve heard from Targaryen fans is that Dany is good and pure and therefore deserves unlimited power and wealth and the absolute fealty and unquestioning devotion of everyone in Westeros.

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    174. got_tv_fan: The only argument that I’ve heard from Targaryen fans is that Dany is good and pure and therefore deserves unlimited power and wealth and the absolute fealty and unquestioning devotion of everyone in Westeros.

      If this is all you’ve taken from the countless debates that’ve gone on about this topic in every single damn thread every single damn day lately then I think it’s fair to say that you have some serious reading comprehension issues. Either that, or you’re going as far out of your way as possible to only hear what you want to hear. It’s pointless to carry on a discussion with someone like that.

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    175. got_tv_fan,

      Yeah, he does. The North belongs to the Starks. They gave their bannermen land in exchange for their service. The vast majority of northern lords failed to live up on their end and should be grateful that Jon showed mercy. Just because the lords can rebel against Jon doesn’t change the fact that Jon had every right to bend the knee to Danerys. And if they want to depose Jon, they can try, but the last House that rebelled against the Starks is now a pile of ash.

      Torrhen Stark bent the knee for the good of the North, same as Jon. He didn’t ask for his bannermen’s permission either because he didn’t have to. It was solely his decision.

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    176. Young Dragon,

      The North belongs to the Starks.

      First, the Starks aren’t owed anything by anyone. The North has every right to depose an incompetent ruler who goes against their wishes, which is what the writers made Jon. Second, even if we are going by some sort of blood rights, Jon doesn’t even have rights to the North as Ned’s bastard son. He was elected disregarding the Stark line of succession.

      Torrhen Stark bent the knee for the good of the North, same as Jon. He didn’t ask for his bannermen’s permission either because he didn’t have to. It was solely his decision.

      Torrhen Stark bent a knee because Aegon was threatening to burn him and his armies with dragons. Unless you think that Daenerys is a mad queen who is going to burn Winterfell to the ground, this reasoning doesn’t apply. In fact, Jon gave the North to Daenerys after she agreed to help him with no strings attached. She has more compelling reasons to want to help than absolute fealty from a very poor, remote, and sparsely populated kingdom like vengeance and her own survival.

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    177. got_tv_fan,

      What part of the North belongs to the Starks do you not understand? The Starks are the landlords, the northern lords are the tennants. As king, Jon has every right to bend the knee, just like Torrhen before him. The reasoning doesn’t matter. Torrhen bent the knee without consulting the other lords because he did not have to. Jon, as king, doesn’t have to either. Jon obviously thinks the North is better off under Dany’s rule.

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    178. got_tv_fan,

      • The comparison to Torrhen Stark bending the knee to save his people after Aegon’s Field of Fire 1.0 may be an apt one – with one major exception: There’s a huge dissonance between what Jon knows and doesn’t know, and what his people know and don’t know.

      • Even if Jon believed he was doing the right thing to help his people, by making an impetuous, unilateral decision without communicating with his sisters and without first explaining and “selling” his decision to his supporters first, he also couldn’t know he was handicapped by an information deficit.

      • What I mean is that Dany’s actions at Field of Fire 2.0, especially her “kneel or fry” ultimatum to the surviving Lannister soldiers and Tarly father and son [Excerpt below], must have quickly become common knowledge. The Maesters at the Citadel had learned of it, though they didn’t have the heart to tell Sam. [Excerpt below].

      • Dany didn’t offer any details about FoF 2.0 to Jon when she returned to Dragonstone, other than to say that now she had fewer enemies [Excerpt below]

      • Especially after Jon’s distressed reaction when Stannis pulled the same “kneel or fry” crap on Mance Rayder, I suspect he’d have a big problem if he knew of Dany’s decision to execute POWs who refused to join her army.

      • I have no doubt that between the raven messaging and Hot Pie News Network, folks in the North already know about Field of Fire 2.0 – and Dany’s awful, take-no-prisoners approach.

      • At the same time, they would have no way of knowing (yet) about Dany’s heroic exploits at the Frozen Lake or her no strings attached decision to forego her invasion and pursuit of the Iron Throne, in order to join with Jon to defeat the NK.

      • As far as we know, none of the survivors she rescued headed to WF. They either stayed at Eastwatch to man the Wall (Beric and Tormund), or sailed directly for KL (Sandor, Jon, Davos, Gendry?, Jorah?). Certainly, as of S7e7 it appeared nobody at WF was aware of what happened at the Frozen Lake. At most, all they know (from the ravengram a frustrated Sansa received from Jon after weeks of being incommunicado) is that he was on his way to WF with Dany, and that he had “bent the knee” to her and was now just Warden of the North.

      • If you were a Northerner, what would you be thinking when you learned the Dragon Queen was on her way?

      (A) “Oh man, she must be so awesome! King Jon must have been convinced we’d come to see her for what she is! Can’t wait to meet her!”

      (B) “She must be coming here to help defend us from NK and AotD because…reasons. Thank God our ten year old kids we’ve been training won’t be on the front lines!”

      (C) “Obviously, Daenerys Targaryen is here to conquer. She must have given Jon the “kneel or fry” ultimatum – and he caved.”

      (D) “That selfish pr*ck surrendered the North to the Mad King’s daughter without bothering to tell us first. What do we call him now? The ‘King Who Lost the North II’? The ‘King Who Knelt 2.0’? The ‘Second King Who Threw the North Away for a Foreign Whore’?”

      (E) “Jon Snow is a f*cking idiot. We warned him not to go south. We warned him not to trust a Targaryen. Now we’ve got a hostile army of Dothraki and WMD dragons on their way here to kill, rape, burn, and enslave us. Lovely. Right after getting rid of the Boltons … now this? Out of the flaying pan and into the fire.” [Sorry for the lame pun</em]

      (F) Other ……………….

      ————————-

      (S7e5, Dany to surviving Lannister troops and Tarlys):
      Dany: "I'm not here to murder, and all I want to destroy is the wheel that has rolled over rich and poor to the benefit of no one but the Cersei Lannisters of the world. I offer you a choice– bend the knee and join me. Together, we will leave the world a better place than we found it.
      Or refuse and die."

      (S7e5, Dany & Jon upon her return to Dragonstone):
      Jon: "You weren't gone long."
      Dany: "No."
      Jon: "And?"
      Dany: "And I have fewer enemies today than I did yesterday."

      (S7e5 Maesters re Bran's ravengram about AotD on the move; rejecting Sam's pleas to take the threat seriously):
      Maester: "It's also possible that this message is part of a ploy by the Dragon Queen to lure southern armies away from the lands they are currently defending to open those lands to easy conquest."
      ***
      (After Sam leaves the room)
      Maester: "Is he the one whose father and brother were just burnt alive?"
      Ebrose: "I'm afraid so. Horrible business. I haven't had the heart to tell him yet. He's a good lad."

      (S7e6, Dany & Jon aboard ship)
      Dany: “What about those who swore allegiance to you?”
      Jon: “They’ll all come to see you for what you are.”
      Dany: “I hope I deserve it.”
      Jon: “You do."

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    179. Ten Bears,

      If Jon had knelt out of fear, then it would be justified. But I don’t think that this is how we should see this entire arc. For instance, I suspect that Tarly burning situation will be papered over. Daenerys is chastized and redeemed because of Jon for some reason. Jon is basically some sort of angelic helpmeet who docilely uses supports his queen and uses his sweetness or whatever to submissively influence her toward good. If the Tarlys come up again ever, I will be shocked. Also, Jon knelt not out of political calculations but when he was injured and delirious. I think that he is supposedly overcome by her goodness and only wants to serve her unquestionably similar to Jorah.

      Yes, the whole scenario is bad writing, but that seems where they are. D&D are looking to elevate Daenerys as a character so Jon had to kneel and be cut down a few notches. They also seem to have adopted a very black and white simplistic idea of right and wrong. Really, they didn’t seem to understand that their viewing audience outside a few teen Daenerys fans probably has a very cynical view of politics or leaders and isn’t “inspired” by something like Jon’s dumb Dragonpit speech.

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    180. got_tv_fan: Really, they didn’t seem to understand that their viewing audience outside a few teen Daenerys fans probably has a very cynical view of politics or leaders and isn’t “inspired” by something like Jon’s dumb Dragonpit speech.

      Oh my god it was so dumb. In a series where a bunch of main characters died because they were too honest or trusting or honorable, Jon is going to save the day by being extra honest and trusting and honorable. He’ll go on to underestimate Cersei, trust a Targaryen invader, fall for a foreign woman, piss of his bannermen, and win the game of thrones because Dany deserves the North on a silver platter for going to rescue him on a mission she sent him on.

      Did Jon ever consider that her wight hunt rescue isn’t necessarily a surefire sign that she’s capable of ruling the North? I mean it seems like she did it because she had a new crush. And when she promised she would help him, did he consider that she might back out if Cersei didn’t agree to the ceasefire? And isn’t it a bit odd that Dany stopped asking him to bend the knee, not because she learned that it was wrong or an assholish thing to do, but because she had the hots for him? I guess if Dickon has flexed his abs, Dany might have repealed her kneel or die policy and he’d be alive now.

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    181. got_tv_fan,

      “If the Tarlys come up again ever, I will be shocked. Also, Jon knelt not out of political calculations but when he was injured and delirious.”
      ————-

      (1) If the Tarlys DON’T come up again, I will be shocked. Excuse the mixed metaphors, but I’m convinced that Dany’s little stunt is definitely going to come back to haunt her. It was a hung gun that’s surely going to blow up in her face and bite her in the ass, for many reasons. (More on that later….maybe. It’s getting late.)

      (2) As I tried to explain in my earlier long-winded comments (3-parter on 10/10/18 starting at 8:05 pm; and 10/12/18 at 7:10 pm), I couldn’t understand why Jon “bent the knee” when he didn’t have to. After witnessing the AotD first-hand, Dany had already agreed – and unconditionally promised – to help him defeat the NK.

      Earlier, in S7e4 I think, while looking at the cave drawings, Dany had conditionally offered: “I will fight for you. I will fight for the North… when you bend the knee.” Jon replied [paraphrasing]: “Nope. My people won’t accept a southern ruler.”

      Yet, just two episodes later, she essentially promised [paraphrasing again]: “I will fight for you. I will fight for the North…no strings attached.” Then, Jon replied: “I’m bending the knee anyway because I’m sure everyone’s going to see how amazing you are!”

      Obviously, whatever his reasoning, he didn’t make a careful political calculation.

      But that’s okay. Probably because of his decision, the situation at WF is going to be a clusterf*ck when he arrives – just in time for my boy NK and his entourage to join in the fun.

      (You know the old saying: “No party ever really gets started until Ol’ Blue Eyes shows up.”)

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    182. MMJ,
      Ten Bears,

      I share your sentiments.

      As things stand, Jon bending the knee does not make sense. I’m so tired of reading / hearing people regurgitating this narrative about how Dany showed how amazing and selfless and worthy she was by rescuing him and that’s why he decided to gift her his kingdom, despite his subjects’ likely objections.

      It’s simply nonsensical. Especially given that she had already pledged to help defeat the Night King. That justification is just producer-blurb, intended to sell you on a plot point that doesn’t really / currently make sense.

      And then they go down to the Dragonpit and she’s still not willing to commit to head north until they secure a truce anyway, so Jon’s technically still at square one having apparently given up his crown needlessly, until Tyrion pulls a rabbit out of the hat.

      No, it doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny. And I desperately hope we get more explanation next season.

      I think the whole “I’d bend the knee, but…” line implies more nuance to Jon’s behaviour. Why bother raising that callback to the very first few episodes of the entire show if it wasn’t going to have any relevance when repeated at a crucial moment later in the season?

      And I find it impossible to accept that things like the Tarly execution, the prospect of Varys’ betrayal/execution, the Northern Lords’ Targ hatred and Tyrion’s concerns about the line of succession are all essentially superfluous and will be dismissed with the wave of a hand or the arrival of a magic Targ baby.

      I need reason. Good, solid reason. Not vague notions of an awestruck ruler taking a leap of faith.

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    183. I doubt we’ll see Dario again, but if we do, the potential is tremendous. He could be disguised as just another stupid sword-swinging mercenary in the Golden Company, only to jump out of the background to save Dany — after the audience has learned she’s done a “heel turn” and is the final Big Bad for the remaining heroes to defeat!

      As for the Tarly-que, that can be taken however the listener wants. Cersei will of course milk it for all of the propaganda value she can, but anyone who wants to dismiss the event can simply note that the elder ‘Turncloak’ Tarly had it coming for backstabbing his leige, Oleanna Tyrell. Westeros’ supposed epitome of brave and chivalrous ideals betrayed his House’s oath just to kill a helpless old woman. His doesn’t sound like a story that will get much sympathy from the listener. (Also, Dany offered both Tarlys the option of escaping death, but Randyll refused to Take the Black, and his idiot son insisted upon dying with him. Nice choice of heir, Randyll.)

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    184. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I think the whole “I’d bend the knee, but…” line implies more nuance to Jon’s behaviour. Why bother raising that callback to the very first few episodes of the entire show if it wasn’t going to have any relevance when repeated at a crucial moment later in the season?”

      …………..
      I’m not sure I understand what you mean. I know there was a fairly recent exchange between Jon and Sansa in which I think he said Ned taught him that everything before the word “but” is bullsh*t. Was that a “callback to the very first few episodes” of the show?

      I thought Jon saying “I’d bend the knee but…” simply meant he was laid up in bed recuperating and couldn’t stand up to kneel before her.

      Oh hell, I don’t know what to make of that whole scene. It was as if someone dosed Jon with milk of the poppy laced with Qualudes and Ecstacy. All of a sudden he got all goofy and lovey-dovey, calling her “Dany” and from out of nowhere assuring Dany that the people who swore allegiance to him – who he’d insisted wouldn’t accept a Southern ruler – will “all come to see you for what you are.”

      Even if all that was true – okay, she’s magnificent, she’s awesome – he’d achieved the two mission objectives he’d announced to his people: (1) mine the dragonglass at Dragonstone; and (2) secure an alliance with someone who had dragons and armies to help fight AotD. Geez, he could’ve arrived home to high-fives and hoisted a “Mission Accomplished” banner over WF.

      Sorry for going off on a tangent. I was just curious what callback you were referring to.

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    185. Ten Bears,

      The whole thing about Ned believing that “everything before the word but is horses**t” is a callback to Benjen saying this to Tyrion at Castle Black in S01E03.

      It’s possible that they had Jon bring this up in S07E01 simply as a bit of familial bonding between him and Sansa.

      Although, it does seem rather on the nose for Jon to later follow up his crucial declaration of fealty to Dany with the word “but…”, having spent the entire season resisting bending the knee to her.

      It may just imply that his motives aren’t as sincere as they appear at face value.

      It is rather convenient that he should also choose to make this pledge at a moment where he cannot physically commit the act of bending the knee to her.

      Also something I noticed at the time, in the past couple of seasons there have been two glaring moments where Sansa has grasped Jon’s hand or arm when appealing to him emotionally. On both occasions the camera specifically focused on these moments of physical contact / manipulation – 1. at Castle Black when she was trying to convince him to fight for Winterfell and 2. in S07E01 when she was trying to convince Jon to listen to her advice.

      Again, it seems rather on the nose for Jon to then on two separate occasions – 1. in the cave n Dragonstone and 2. when he “bends the knee” – purposefully take Dany’s hand/arm, similar to the way Sansa did when trying to coerce him.

      Finally, his inexplicable decision to call her Dany at that moment also comes across as rather out of character for Jon and perhaps emotionally manipulative.

      I know there are people who fiercely believe that Jon does not have any ulterior motives for his behaviour and that he’s simply awestruck and overcome by heart eyes for Dany.

      But to me it genuinely feels that the possibility that Jon was not being entirely sincere in his behaviour towards Dany is a more logical explanation for his sudden change in behaviour and his unnecessary surrender of the Northern crown than the notion that he’s just suddenly come to the conclusion that she deserves to rule over his people in perpetuity.

      I guess we’ll find out in Season 8 whether there was more to Jon’s behaviour than meets the eye, but I believe there are enough verbal, visual and thematic clues (including in his conversations with Beric and Theon) to suggest that he may not have been as straightforward and honourable as first appears.

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    186. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I guess we’ll find out in Season 8 whether there was more to Jon’s behaviour than meets the eye, but I believe there are enough verbal, visual and thematic clues (including in his conversations with Beric and Theon) to suggest that he may not have been as straightforward and honourable as first appears.”
      ———-
      Well, I sure hope that Jon wasn’t as “straightforward and honorable as he first appears.” I’d like that explanation better than Jon turning into a goofball because of hormones, drugs, or brain freeze.

      Without having read the books, I was perplexed from the outset about Ned Stark’s reputation as Mr. Honorable. All I saw was a guy who forged his dying friend’s will, concealed from him that “his” children were incest bastards, and gave a false public confession to treason.

      Yeah, I know his “big lie” and sacrificing his “honor” was to keep his promise to his dying sister. I’ll give him a pass on that. But he also deceived Jon and let him unknowingly give up his birthriht and go to the Wall to rot. And I was taken aback after Arya protested that she called out Joffrey for lying because he did lie, and Sansa wasn’t truthful, but Ned said Sansa has to take Joffrey’s side “even when he is wrong.”

      I hope Jon’s not trying to emulate some idealistic image he has of Ned.* Maybe Jon did learn a lesson from his time undercover as a NW agent who’d infiltrated the Wildlings. Maybe his dragonpit speech (something about when enough people make false promises words lose their meaning… I forget exactly) was a load of hooey.

      You know, your suggestion that Jon is playing at being a dummy and spouting platitudes so he can achieve his own objectives for the good of the realm, is much more appealing than Jon as a deluded fool who won’t learn from others’ mistakes or his own. That would be a nice twist.

      I don’t see how he can be Dudley Doright and succeed. He needs to have some Snidely Whiplash in him.

      * In my view, there is a bluntly honest character on the show, It ain’t Ned Stark. It’s Sandor Clegane.

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    187. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I know this theory but I have some questions if you’d entertain me! 🙂 Not meant to criticize or attack but I haven’t seen these issues addressed yet if you’ll humour me 🙂

      Wouldn’t this cause more problems for Jon and the North in the long-term? While I personally never bought the Mad Queen Dany theory, if she did become Mad Queen Dany, wouldn’t this be a near guarantee of a hellfire retaliation from Dany if Jon did this? Dany helps Jon and the North defeat the white walkers… and then she finds out Jon did this… and if she were mad… I don’t know if she’d take that well…

      And without her being mad, wouldn’t this damage the North’s chances of survival in post-war apocalypse as it would threaten a long-term alliance that would help the North rebuild and get supplies for its population? I know the North has existing struggles with food and resources, especially now that Winter Has Come, that I don’t imagine will get better after the war. It seems that an alliance with Dany would help this out – even if the south is wiped out, she’d have access to Meereen I believe. I don’t know if Dany would want an alliance with the North in the event of this theory. She wouldn’t go to war against them but I don’t think she’d feel all that favourable for an alliance. This theory would seem to cause bad blood that may have its fair share of consequences.

      That said, I can’t really fault people for questioning why Jon would bend the knee after Dany pledged her commitment to the war against the dead. Still, I’m not sure why, in this theory, Jon would bend the knee after Dany promised Jon she’d help?

      Just thoughts and issues I have re: this theory 🙂 I don’t know if we’ll agree but I appreciate any input you may have on this!

      Nonetheless, while I think the story is about Jon seeing Dany as somebody who can help bring about a better future and as somebody who would be good for the North and Westeros, even I can certainly agree the Northern lords definitely aren’t going to see it that way and I hope Jon isn’t expecting that this is going to be problem-free.

      I’m not a huge fan of the show!Northern lords, no more than I was of Marsh & co. in the books or Alliser Thorne & co. in the show, but in all three scenarios, Jon is operating with a different set of first-hand experiences that give him an entirely different perspective that the Northern lords (and Marsh & co/Alliser Thorne & co.) don’t have. And Jon has a set of really unique experiences that have given him the ability to see from multiple perspectives – but he can’t seem to account for other people not having those perspectives to see from. Even in the books, Jon primarily tried to appeal to his officers using humanitarian arguments that the wildlings are people too, they are men, women, and children, and only uses the dead wildlings=wights argument once… maybe twice. I think he spells it out for them only once though. Still, while Jon is 100% correct, I don’t think it’s the right approach with these people who have fought wildlings for years and this reminds me of the current situation with the Northern lords who only view Dany as the Mad King’s daughter. That’s not right either but they don’t have anything to prove to them otherwise so I have no idea how Jon is going to sell Dany to them. I love Jon but this does seem to be a mistake he makes several times, even in the books (hello, Hardhome).

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    188. Adrianacandle,

      • I fear we’re getting into another Sansa concealing KotV conondrum: It’s difficult to figure out a motive for Jon’s sudden and unnecessary knee-bending from the available information.

      • I went back and excerpted Jon’s description to the Northern lords of his two-part mission. (I excluded everyone’s grumbling about untrustworthy Targaryens and Lannisters). Here’s what Jon said:

      ………………….
      (S7e2, Jon showing two ravengrams to Northern Lords)

      Jon: “This message was sent to me by Samwell Tarly. He was my brother at the Night’s Watch, a man I trust as much as anyone in this world. He’s discovered proof that Dragonstone sits on a mountain of dragonglass.”

      “I received this a few days ago from Dragonstone. It was sent to me by Tyrion Lannister. He is now Hand of the Queen to Daenerys Targaryen. She intends to take the Iron Throne from Cersei Lannister. She has a powerful army at her back and, if this message is to be believed, three dragons. Lord Tyrion has invited me to Dragonstone to meet with Daenerys. And I’m going to accept.”
      ***
      “We need this dragonglass, my lords. We know that dragonglass can destroy both white walkers and their army. We need to mine it and turn it into weapons.”

      “But more importantly, we need allies. The Night King’s army grows larger by the day. We can’t defeat them on our own. We don’t have the numbers. Daenerys has her own army and she has dragonfire. I need to try to persuade her to fight with us.”
      ………………

      • Jon had accomplished both objectives of his mission. Once he did so, there was nothing to be gained by knee-bending and giving up his crown and the North’s sovereignty – and only a ton of downside.

      • It was nice that Dany flew beyond the Wall and torched a few thousand wights. But if taking out large numbers of enemies in one fell swoop is the qualification for queenship, when I go into the voting booth I’m pulling the lever next to ASNAWP. (Campaign slogan: “Winter came for House Frey. My name is Arya Stark and I approved this message.”)

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    189. Ten Bears,

      You’re not wrong on any of your points! And I definitely agree with some of them – and this risks debating a never-ending conundrum!

      I think the show tried to present why Jon’s mind changed re: bending the knee and I believe it was, rightly or wrongly, as a result of him witnessing Dany’s commitment to defeating the army of the dead even after losing Viserion: seeing a leader devoted to taking out the army of the dead, despite large personal loss and risk. That’s how I read it – I could be totally wrong! Still, whether or not these are good enough reasons for Jon bending the knee when Dany didn’t require it this time and whether or not that’s a good qualification for queenship will vary from viewer to viewer… and from character to character.

      I go both ways on it but you’ve got a point. I mean, I can’t fault people for side-eyeing the decision when Jon already achieved what he set out to do when he left for Dragonstone like you said – Dany finally agreed to help him this time without asking him to bend the knee.

      I’m one of those fans who think that a United Westeros would be the best way to build it back up post-war (if there is a Westeros) but I don’t know if that’s totally relevant to this because what to do with Westeros after that war isn’t discussed in the show itself. For now, that’s just the land of theory.

      Now I like Dany, I like Sansa, I liked Margaery, but I may too put in a ballot for ASNAWP as queen 😉 She does know firsthand the struggles of the smallfolk!

        Quote  Reply

    190. Adrianacandle,

      Interesting questions. Quite simply, I think Jon considers it worth the risk.

      It’s more clear than ever, after what happened beyond The Wall, that he needs Dany’s assistance if his people are going to have any chance of survival.

      But even in such dire circumstances you can’t ignore politics. He surely knows this from his own murder and everything else he’s experienced.

      There doesn’t necessarily need to be any explicit plan to betray or defy Dany, it’s simply a question of Jon’s intentions and the possibility of him being able to play both sides of the fence.

      If they survive the Long Night, then he can exploit whatever circumstances that may arise. Preferably Dany wouldn’t get wind of any subterfuge unless Jon was in a position to gain from it.

      As has been discussed, the fundamental question is why Jon would genuinely bend the knee if Dany had already pledged to ally with The North, no strings attached?

      If Jon is genuinely pledging fealty because he’s concluded that she’s simply so awesome and worthy, then why confuse matters by having her pledge to fight for The North regardless?

      The only logical explanation I can accept is that it’s a manipulation of some sort. And I think there’s enough evidence to hint at such a gamble: the “but…” wordplay; the manipulative hand-holding; the bizarre use of Dany; the concerned sigh after she leaves the room; the later conversation with Theon about how his actions may seem like the right thing from the outside, but that he’s done plenty he regrets… and so on.

      I mean, if we take this question of Jon’s loyalties and motives further, you even have things like the scene where they’re all deciding how to travel to Winterfell in which Jorah, whom we know loves Daenerys and is unquestionably loyal to her, suggests that she fly to Winterfell for her own safety (that’s his primary concern – Dany’s safety); whereas Jon suggests they travel together to Winterfell because it’d give the Northerners a better impression of them as allies (note the use of the word ‘ally’) .

      Contrary to Jorah, Jon’s primary concern is not the safety of his new queen, the woman he is now supposedly in love with. His primary concern is still the politics of The North.

      I think this speaks volumes and, again, there’s no need to include it unless there’s a point to it.

      I just feel there are way too many question marks, hints and out of character behaviour in those last couple of episodes for us to accept everything that occurred at face value.

      If Jon was being less than honourable and it comes out in Season 8, leading to conflict and drama, then that can only be a good thing for the show as far as I’m concerned.

        Quote  Reply

    191. I see a kind of parallel to Jon’s course of action, when he was with the wildlings. He killed his admired NWbrother Qorin to persuade the wildlings, that he really want’s to join them, he lied and prejured – and then he fell in love with Ygritte, and it was true love.
      Nevertheless he betrayed and revealed his new companions and his true love, to keep his oath to the NW.
      But in spite of everything in the end we saw, that wildlings and Jon came together again for the bigger aim…
      He wasn’t good in classical politics, I agree, but he accomplished in his own way, what he went for.
      And was killed.

      So at one hand one shouldn’t underestimate Jon’s abilities for convincing, at the other hand it’s most likely, that Jon has the bigger aim still in mind. And on the third hand (Qorin’s may be?) perhaps he doesn’t care, if he is to be killed a second time.

        Quote  Reply

    192. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Thank-you for answering my questions and taking the time for such a considerate reply!! It does help me to understand the other side of things! I read it several times over and have mulled over a few things 🙂

      I have a different read and take-away on those scenes than you do but that can be debated back and forth endlessly and my powers of persuasion are pretty nill 🙂

      That aside, I’m still a bit confused as I’m still having trouble reconciling the risk of trying to play both sides of the fence. I’ve gone through the scenarios several times but I’m unable to anticipate what Jon would gain with this risk that would prioritize his goals (the survival of humanity). With a unified country under one ruler, I can potentially see the benefits of resource-sharing in a post-apocalyptic scenario and maybe even (perhaps temporary) migration to build the country back up and support its populace, including Northern residents. Yet, while I think this would align with Jon’s goals, there’s been no discussion in the show of what post-war Westeros should look like in the event they survive.

      With Jon hedging his bets and playing both sides of the fence, the only upside I can see is retaining a Northern crown. I know Jon doesn’t much want the crown himself and I think he only took the position so he could do as much as he could in the war against the dead, but nonetheless, I can see the benefit of soothing waters with the Northern lords until the war is done. Still, I don’t know if it’d be all that wise to risk bad blood and ill-feeling between a major alliance (like a Stark-Targaryen alliance) for the sake of a Northern crown or even soothing tension with the Northern lords when this same alliance may be what the North needs to survive for perhaps a generation or a few.

      That’s where my primary trouble is. Regardless, thank-you for engaging with me! Truly! It may come down to a fundamental disagreement on what’s worth the risk to each of us. Even if we don’t see eye-to-eye on this, this helps me see the other side of things 🙂

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    193. Adrianacandle,

      My “final” two cents: My primary trouble is the timing of Jon’s declaration. Just like he “sold” his people on the necessity to travel south to get dragonglsss and a powerful ally. he needed to explain and justify a monumental decision like relinquishing the North’s sovereignty before actually doing it. And he surely knew that unilaterally deciding to “bend the knee” would cause a sh*tstorm of dissension to erupt at the worst possible time.

      I think I’m repeating myself here. I just don’t get why he couldn’t wait until his people were actually convinced of Dany’s awesomeness before he broached the idea of not merely allying with her, but swearing allegiance to her as the Queen of the 7K.

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    194. On the debate of whether Daenerys will embrace the dark side of the force, whether she will die or rule and whether Jon will grow up to be a leader of more than a bunch of men: these times we live in are so bent on political correctness that Daenerys will NOT turn mad, she will NOT die and she will be the awsomest ruler the 7 kingdoms have ever had. Jon, being a man, will be lucky not to die a hero. He may survive just because the scriptwriters are also men and he has a big female fanbase, but the highest he can go is a sort of a King consort and trusted general. At the times we live in, I cannot think that there will be a show so true to real life that the male hero will just steal the heroine’s light and turn her into a child breeding machine.

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    195. Ten Bears,

      I totally get your point and as I said above, I can’t fault it. And yeah, I agree, he should have waited to discuss this. This might be an effort on the show’s part to cause more drama between Jon, the Northern lords, Dany, I don’t know. As I said in the comment you’re replying to, it may come down to a fundamental disagreement on what’s worth the risk to each of us. Personally, in referring to that theory, I think the risk of damaging an alliance likely needed by post-war Westeros to survive poses a greater threat than pissing off the Northern lords and causing a shit storm. This is all totally theoretical and we’ll find out soon enough in Season 8. But YMMV.

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    196. Adrianacandle,

      You’re welcome. Thank you for being so kind and for taking the time to consider my point of view. I completely understand where you’re coming from too. I guess we’ll find out in another 7 or 8 months (man, this wait is unbearable!!) whether there’s more to Jon’s actions.

      Just one final thing on the issue of a united realm. I struggle to reconcile the basis, as depicted on-screen, upon which we’re supposed to believe that Jon concluded that the kingdoms should be united around Dany post-war. A conversation with Missandei? Her brief heroics beyond The Wall?

      Wouldn’t he be equally put off by her tantrum on the beach, which he was clearly unimpressed by, where he had to coach her back from burning the Red Keep? Or the realisation that she likely burnt hundreds of Westerosi alive on her raid in The Reach?

      If Jon has simply become the latest inexplicable inductee to the cult of Dany then that’d be very disappointing.

      I prefer to trust in the possibility that his decision was more a calculated one than a leap of faith. But even if he is genuinely convinced of her suitability to rule, then the revelations still to come must surely act as a spanner in the works.

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    197. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Yes, this wait is unbearable! I’ve got such huge anxiety over it! But I’m also dreading the Eternal Long Night after the series ends…

      Thank you for being kind with me too! I said this before but this really helps me see another perspective and has given me food for thought! I can understand where you’re coming from and I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me. While I know I’m taking something different away from the scenes than you are and probably hoping for some different things (some things – I do want Sansa to survive, I think we have that in common!), we’re invested in the same show and I think we want the best story we can possibly get 🙂

      I’ll try to explain my thinking but it’s totally fair if you’re not convinced – definitely take my responses for what you will! Thank you again for considering my responses and bringing up these points for me to consider! 🙂

      I do think it was Dany’s heroics and sacrifice beyond the Wall, in addition to her devoting herself to defeating the Night King even after huge personal loss, that settled it for Jon. I don’t think Jon necessarily has to agree with all of Dany’s actions for him to think she’d be good for a post-war Westeros and I don’t think he does agree with everything. Rightly or wrongly, I think it’s about Dany’s devotion, commitment, and that he believes she has a good heart. Whether or not those are qualifications for queenship, that’s worth a debate of its own. However, I agree with your point that Jon does not like burning people and I don’t think Jon would every willingly choose that tactic. This might become a point of contention between them – I know Jon did not like Stannis burning Mance either. On the other hand, Dany did listen re: the Red Keep and she has a point that Jon has likewise killed enemies in war and not painlessly – although, that’s risking another debate discussing the pain of dragonfire vs. pain of beheading vs. pain of sword through gut/head which I’m totally not prepared for. In regard to other leaders (and I might be stepping into a puddle here), Jon did not agree with Stannis 100% either but due to Stannis’s actions for the Night’s Watch and recognition of the true threat, Jon found himself inwardly supporting Stannis despite urging himself to stay neutral (book). This isn’t really the same situation, no, but there are a few parallels with perhaps finding himself supporting a leader he doesn’t 100% agree with all the time (and there were times he was put off by Stannis), but still feeling they are still a good option for leadership. He did believe Stannis was good for the North – or at least, way way better than the Boltons or the Ironborn.

      I know the circumstances with Dany are different but I think what’s important for me here is Dany might be the North’s/post-war Westero’s best chance for survival with her connections to Meereen, across the Narrow Sea, and possibly to the southern parts of Westeros if she wins them and they aren’t devastated. The remaining population of the North isn’t going to have a ton of choice re: survival options or places to live. If it’s between starvation/exposure vs. allying with Dany, I think Jon would clearly choose Dany. Even if Jon had reservations about Dany – and sure, he might have some – I think it’d be smart to keep that alliance positive, open, and active.

      But again, I totally understand that your feelings might differ, on this and Dany. We’re in theoretical territory here so it’s anyone’s game!

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    198. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      One thing… I really dislike when people argue that beach scene is Jon being her advisor. Really? Daenerys ordered Jon to stay as her servant and he did because he knew who was boss on that situation. He was incredibly docile in that scene because he knew that it was anger Daenerys if he criticized her. He didn’t challenge her. He didn’t tell her to shut up. He didn’t leave the scene like a king would. He submissively stayed and blurted out nonsense with his eyes to the ground. He acted like a good servant, not a coach. A coach is someone with power, not someone who is trying to avoid the wrath of an angry ruler like Jon was in that scene. He provided no advice other than mummering how the Great Queen shouldn’t burn people. “And please mistress don’t hurt us. Here is some garbage mumbo jumbo that means to you. Please don’t burn us.” It was a disgustingly servile scene and I have no reason why people keep insisting that this is some great scene that Jon is ordering Daenerys around. It is very much the opposite. Is there something in D&D’s commentary that suggest this is the case? Because it really plays the opposite of Jon being powerful; it is a queen ordering her servant around.

      Adrianacandle,

      Based on your reading of the current power dynamics, Jon is basically a powerless servant. He has no ability to coach the Queen and no power to order anyone to do anything. He is reduced to doing bed tricks as a kept mistress to appease a volatile mistress. And please stop with arguing that Jon of all people prevented Daenerys from burning the Red Keep. He submissively stayed as her servant and provided her with useless mumbo jumbo. I don’t think Daenerys was ever going to burn the Red Keep down. That was a misdirection on the part of the show. She was always going to end up burning the juicier target – the Reach armies. There is stuff Daenerys wants in the Red Keep like her throne that make it a less likely target.

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    199. Sou,

      I don’t see why they can’t both be rulers. Daenerys and Jon could have ruled as equals. They could have even married as Ferdinand and Isabella did to unite Spain. Moreover, Jon could have remained King of an Independent North while Daenerys ruled the south. Or Dany could have left to go back to Essos and free more slaves or whatever. However, Jon kneeling like a little servant precluded any of these scenarios where both could be equal rulers and heroes. This, as you alluded to, was done to be politically correct, not because of story concerns.

      Oh and one more thing, there is no such term as “king consort.” A king by his very nature cannot be a consort.

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    200. Adrianacandle,

      I’m thinking I should qualify everything I’ve said about Jon’s decision and the timing of it with the other big variable in the equation: Depending on the timing of the apparently inevitable revelation that Jon Snow is really Aegon Targaryen and the “rightful heir” under the rules of succession upon which Dany has staked her claim, will she “bend the knee” and declare Jon/Aegon the rightful king of the 7K?

      After all, her speech to Jon and Davos in S7e3 made it clear that she wasn’t basing her right to rule on an “I am so awesome and I’m going to break the wheel” platform. It was premised on the notion that the Targaryens were still the rightful monarchs and everyone else has been a usurper or a traitor. She accused the North of being in “open rebellion”‘ because they declared Jon their King and he refused to bend the knee to her. She concluded her speech with something like. “I am the last Targaryen, Jon Snow.”

      All of my whining about Jon’s impetuous and unnecessary relinquishment of his crown and the North’s sovereignty will become irrelevant if Bran & Sam break the news about Jon’s parentage and legitimacy, people accept it as fact – and Dany can’t refute it.

      Will she insist: “Well, I’m super awesome and you already pledged fealty to me and agreed to be my Warden of the North, so tough sh*t.” Or will she honor her family name and rules of succession and acknowledge that Jon Snow nka Aegon Targaryen is the rightful king, and announce: “Long may he reign!” ?

      I guess we’ll have to wait and see when and how that big parentage reveal occurs. (Though I still say that of Sam and Bran thought it over, they’d realize they shouid keep the secret a secret.)

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    201. Ten Bears,

      Ooooh, yes! I have no idea how that will play out! I don’t know how Dany will react or how she’ll view everything in light of that inevitable revelation, especially (as you said) she’s been operating under the belief that she is the last heir to her family’s dynasty since her brother’s death. Personally, I think she’ll be torn – but I have no idea how she’ll react or which of those paths she’ll ultimately choose or wtf she’s going to do with this info. April 2019 is the guess right??? I’m both anticipating this and dreading this…

      I’m not sure how Jon would react either. I can’t see Jon being excited over the prospect of the Iron Throne after a pretty miserable tenure as Lord Commander, telling the Northern lords that he didn’t want the kingship but agreed to it in order to fight the North’s survival, and he’s now probably facing the prospect of the Long Night, but you’re right, that is big variable. Plus the whole dealing with the parentage reveal and what that means. That situation is so complicated, with all the claims, emotions, and everything involved, I have zero idea of what will happen.

      Season 8 will be a drama bomb. Everything will be a shit storm XD;;;;

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    202. Ten Bears:
      I guess we’ll have to wait and see when and how that big parentage reveal occurs. (Though I still say that of Sam and Bran thought it over, they’d realize they shouid keep the secret a secret.)

      Yeah… despite my drama-loving instincts (… I mean, I do watch Dance Moms…), I kind of agree. Things will be a mess when it’s revealed.

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    203. Tensor the Mage, Who Would Rather EAT All Seventeen Bound Volumes of 'Daario Naharis in the Land of the Devious Hair Stylists' Than Read One Page of Dragon Lore says:

      The more I think about it, the more I lean toward Dany losing it and becoming the final Big Bad the remaining heroes have to defeat. The setups seem obvious:

      “A dragon is not a slave.” Meet what’s left of Viserion! Note how he doesn’t answer to you anymore?

      Another Queen in Westeros recently lost it after she lost her three beloved children. Said children not sired by her husband, a husband whom she ultimately helped to die.

      Tyrion convinced her not to burn King’s Landing because he had a kindler, gentler invasion plan. Which failed. Completely.

      Her entire life has been defined by the idea that she has blood right to rule Westeros. Now one of the only locals who is prettier than she is will be revealed as the rightful ruler by her own standards. (As noted above, there’s no reason to believe she’ll take this news well.)

      Any or all of these — or some other surprise — could be enough to flip her to Mad Queen.

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