Game of Thrones to “end beautifully” for Tyrion Lannister, claims Peter Dinklage; Sansa to face new threats in Season 8

Tyrion Sansa 3x08 Second Sons Wedding

A few days ago, at the premiere of his new HBO movie, My Dinner with Hervè, Peter Dinklage was asked—believe it or not—about the final season of this other little known HBO project of his you probably haven’t heard of, Game of something or other.

“I think it’s going to be the best season of television anyone has ever seen,” Dinklage confidently tells the Belfast Telegraph. “It takes you to a place that you never saw coming—that I didn’t see coming. Just be prepared! It’s a fun ride.”

Speaking to Entertainment Tonight, the actor praises showrunners Dan Weiss and David Benioff, saying “there are no better writers in television”, and declaring “they ended it brilliantly. Better than I could have imagined, and you people are in for it.” Regarding Tyrion’s ending specifically, Dinklage has his lips sealed—almost literally—, but he does give away “it ends beautifully for my character—whether it be tragic or not.”

That’s a rather ominous addition there at the end, Dinklage, though perhaps we shouldn’t expect anything else, as tragedy is par for the course in Game of thrones!

Sophie Turner, meanwhile, was at New York Comic Con this weekend promoting X-Men: Dark Phoenix, her upcoming film (it’s coming someday, I’m sure; unless the delays continue until the end of time.) Of course, she was also asked about Game of Thrones:

“I still don’t accept that it’s done,” Turner said during a panel, according to Ten Daily. “It’s basically been the majority of my life. I’m still very much processing it.”

She was able to keep one of Sansa’s corsets, and Benioff and Weiss presented her with “a storyboard from one of their favourite Sansa Stark scenes,” Turner revealed. “They wrote a long note on the back. I bawled my eyes out. I was shaking and crying for hours.”

Also, at Vulture, Turner touches on a number of things, yet, despite that attention-grabbing headline, what really appeals to us are her comments on the heightened security around the filming of season eight and where Sansa is headed:

“The secrecy is crazy,” Turner tells Vulture. “We have a whole different name for it when we’re shooting it. I think this season it was like ‘The Tree of Life’ or something.” It’s not just the show, either: reportedly “the actors’ names are changed on the script and the call sheets” too. The craziest measure of them all may be the “drone killer”, however: “I don’t know how it does it. It creates like this field around and the drones just drop”.

“Also, we shoot fake scenes. We got into costume in Croatia because we know the paparazzi lurk around there, so we would spend like half a day doing nothing.”

Though Turner was reportedly seen in Croatia, she was never photographed filming, so here at Watchers on the Wall we never confirmed her presence. Two of her co-stars, however, were definitely seen and photographed filming in Dubrovnik, so, sadly for the producers, this elaborate ruse to fool us didn’t work as intended after all.

Finally, Turner says Sansa’s “been somewhat lost as a matter of where she wants to be, who she wants to be, who she wants to surround herself with, and this season she is very self-assured. She knows what she wants. She knows what she stands for. She knows who she wants to be around, and she faces threats to that this season,” she teases us.

So, what do you think? Will Tyrion’s end be tragic or not? Which threats will Sansa face, aside from the obvious icepocalypse? Speculate in the comment section below!

97 responses

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    1. Any insight into the veracity of the Tyrion “leaks”? I doubt they are true

      , but certainly a tragic end for the character if they are true.

      As for Dubrovnik, was Sophie talking about this season or previous seasons? Because no one spotted her there this season, which is odd if they were trying to put on a show for the paps.

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    2. “…was at New York Comic Con this weekend promoting X-Men: Dark Phoenix, her upcoming film (it’s coming someday, I’m sure; unless the delays continue until the end of time.)”

      A week ago the trailer released said June 7th, 2019. https://youtu.be/QWbMckU3AOQ

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    3. got_tv_fan: Any insight into the veracity of the Tyrion “leaks”?

      No confirmed veracity whatsoever.

      got_tv_fan: As for Dubrovnik, was Sophie talking about this season or previous seasons? Because no one spotted her there this season, which is odd if they were trying to put on a show for the paps.

      Though she wasn’t (convincingly) photographed, there were many reports of her being there. The reality is that, despite their claims, they don’t really make that much of an effort to fool the paparazzi or us. Having an actor around, even in costume, is usually not enough (except for that time with Shae in Meereen). We can usually tell whether they’re playing around or actually filming.

      Jo-el,

      I know. The film was first schedule to be released on November 2018. Then it was delayed to February 2019. They first released the trailer with the original February date… only to announce a few days later another delay, to June.

      So… yeah. That’s the joke.

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    4. Sophie was NEVER seen in Croatia, everybody claimed she was not there. And if she was there, she was kept hidden and nobody managed to click even a single picture of her. Everybody at that time CONFIRMED that only Jon & Cersei filmed. Sophie in Croatia was a very big secret. Only now do we know she did go there.

      Suspicious. Why go to all that trouble to hide Sophie? I think she did film something in Croatia, maybe the fake scene was with Cersei & Jon. Fooled all the fans, then actually filmed real footage with her.

      She also said there is a Sansa statue. Which is a whole another discussion.

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    5. I want Sansa to follow in her Father’s footsteps and do something Treasonous in season 8.

      Ned Stark said the Joffery Baratheon was a Bastard. I want Sansa to say that Cersei and Jamie are the Mad Kings bastards.

      Ned Stark was executed for his treasonous (truth) statement. I want Sansa Stark to rewarded for her treasonous (truth) statement.

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    6. Ivy,

      As Luka pointed out, there were some reports of her being in Croatia. It’s difficult to tell what is true or not as there were also many reports which stated Isaac, Emilia, and John Bradley were there as well. But it would be funny if they had Sophie doing fake scenes that fooled no one because she was not photographed 😂.

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    7. Ivy,

      I don’t think they were filming fake scenes in Dubrovnik. I’ve been to Dubrovnik and getting the bulky film equipment up onto the city walls is probably a chore. They aren’t doing that for trolling purposes. The two scenes we did catch glimpses of – Jon on the Walls and Cersei and Jon were real scenes. Both were a bit spoiler-y but didn’t really give away much of the season’s plot. Fans could logically figure out that there would be some confrontation with Cersei in King’s Landing. Therefore, it was a tradeoff they were willing to take. I do, however, think they flew in actors to Seville who weren’t filming there for trolling purposes. Nikolaj definitely didn’t film in Spain.

      As for Sophie, I agree that if she did film in Dubrovnik, it was kept hush-hush. She wasn’t parading in front of the cameras, which is why I think she was referring to earlier seasons in her interview.

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    8. firstone: I want Sansa to say that Cersei and Jamie are the Mad Kings bastards.

      Why? This would give Cersei (and, posthumously, her & Jaime’s children) more of a legitimate right to the Iron Throne than old Bobbie Baratheon ever had. How does that put Sansa’s shapely arse onto the Iron Throne?

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    9. Really curious what a ‘beautiful’ end for Tyrion’s character is.. The most common prediction I tend to see is that he’ll be Hand to whomever rules at the end, but I hope there’s more to it than that.

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    10. Ivy,

      You only get a statue if you’re dead so I doubt she’d give away a spoiler that big. Although I’m sure all the Sansa haters will be out in full force on the Reddit boards claiming their ‘Sansa dies’ rumour is true.

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    11. I knew it! I knew Sophie was in Croatia! Cersei will get her claws on Sansa and Jon will go all the way to King’s Landing to rescue her after realising he is in love with her. And Sansa will realise Jon is the person she wants to be around! Thank you Soph for these interviews, my dreams are coming true!

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    12. Jay Targ,

      “Beautiful end” for Tyrion. Hmmmm.

      Retires to start own vineyard. Bottles “Imp’s Delight” for his own consumption and a few friends.

      Finally delivers punchline to jackass & honeycomb in brothel joke.

      One day, while tending to vineyard, NK suddenly appears in a wheelchair. Tourches index fingernail to Tyrion’s cheek, transforming him into the God of T*ts and Wine. Smiling Theon arrives a few minutes later, announces “one touch from NK and my Favorite Toy grew back!”

      Final shot: NK wading into the sea; slowly transforms into Varys who keeps on paddling – and propels himself with flippers, revealing that he is indeed a merman.

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    13. Think Sophie’s protesting too much. Now I believe she was filming in Croatia.

      It’s probably a fairly safe assumption that she and many other characters end up in King’s Landing anyway.

      But the “I too would like them to recover some things that belong to me” (Cersei) and “I will not set foot in King’s Landing while Cersei Lannister is queen” (Sansa) lines from S7 may suggest that Sansa and Cersei will come face to face again in King’s Landing.

      Now that Sophie has suggested that she was in Croatia as part of some elaborate ruse, I think it’s even more likely that she was filming something with Lena.

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    14. kathy: You only get a statue if you’re dead

      Although that would be the case, particularly for the Winterfell crypt statues, we can’t dismiss the possibility that Sansa would have one made of herself at peak beauty, so she could enjoy it herself. Remember, in the book, Illyrio Mopatis had that statue of himself at 16, out in his gardens?

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    15. Jay Targ,

      What actors consider a “beautiful ending” for a character might be different than what fans might consider a “beautiful ending.” Dinklage might consider a beautiful ending to be a tragic one where he gets a lot of juicy stuff to work with.

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    16. Well, at least Peter didn’t trot out the “divisive ending” spiel. 🙂 And like I’ve said several times before, I very much hope all characters (especially main characters) get a beautiful, fitting end to their arcs. Though I’ve never been able to feel too afraid for Tyrion, as I can’t really see a satisfying or “beautiful” ending to the character that involves him dying.

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    17. Now this is an interesting snippet. Teasing that the story takes us places we didn’t expect, to me that means Dany not ending on the throne, perhaps Tyrion switching to Jon but I don’t see a tragic ending for him, in fact I’m guessing he’s a lock for hand of the king (if it’s not Davos) or Lord of Casterley Rock.

      Even Sophie’s snippets are fun especially as we clearly know from articles on this site

      that Jon returns to Kings Landing and will film scenes with Cersei

      even if we have no context at all to that.

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    18. got_tv_fan: As for Sophie, I agree that if she did film in Dubrovnik, it was kept hush-hush. She wasn’t parading in front of the cameras, which is why I think she was referring to earlier seasons in her interview.

      What are you talking about?

      Sophie Turner has not been to Croatia since Season 4, it is absolutely clear that she is talking about season 8. It is completely bizarre to think she is talking about S4, when they never shot any fake scenes for it.

      Sophie has pretty much let it slip that Sansa films something in Croatia. I wish we could speculate on it.

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    19. It is my full expectation that season 8 of GOT will be the greatest piece of TV I have ever seen. Thats all I have to say.

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    20. got_tv_fan,

      I’m pretty sure she’s talking about what the production did to avoid spoilers; she’s not necessarily referring to herself. At least that’s how I read it since she also mentioned the drone killer, the fake title, and fake names on the call sheet.

      Grail King,

      Haha not surprised. Do you have a link to the image?

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    21. The threats can only be Dany and Cersei. She already saw Dany as a threat in S7. Sansa fights to make sure the Starks stay alive, Jon is protected as the heir, and no one threatens their home. The Starks are at risk for being singled out for being in “open rebellion” by two queens. My bet is that Dany isn’t the protector here–Sansa is. You can only have one person in the “momma Stark” role.

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    22. HelloThere:
      It is my full expectation that season 8 of GOT will be the greatest piece of TV I have ever seen.Thats all I have to say.

      It is my full expectation that 33% of the fans will say S8 of GoT will be the greatest piece of TV they’ve ever seen; another 33% will say it was the biggest piece of sh*t hey’ve ever seen (and that “D&D are hacks who butchered genius GRRM’s masterpiece!”); and the remaining 33% will only like it if their favorite characters survive and rule.

      As for me, I’ll be among the first 33% so long as S8 ends with:

      https://i.imgur.com/Wk6lyQ7.jpg

      I won’t be too upset or too ecstatic if anyone else lives, dies, or has a magic baby. (I’ve already resigned myself to Sandor going out in a literal and figurative blaze of glory to save the human race – or at least his Little Bird and Wolf Girl. So I am not counting on Sandor – or any poultry – making it out alive by the end of S8e6.)

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    23. Trivial Comment Interlude:

      Sophie said: “She was able to keep one of Sansa’s corsets, and Benioff and Weiss presented her with “a storyboard from one of their favourite Sansa Stark scenes,” Turner revealed. “They wrote a long note on the back. I bawled my eyes out. I was shaking and crying for hours.”

      What is it with the substandard souvenirs? Except for Rose Leslie getting Ygritte’s bow, it seems like the other actors are getting schlock. A “corset” for Sophie? Come on! What about that beautiful, sleek Cat 2.0 dress that made LF’s jaw drop when she alighted from the top of the staircase in S4e8 (“Shall we go?”)? Or the beautiful cloak with hoodie from S7e7 when she told the guard “Have my sister brought to the Great Hall.” Or one of her (in-)famous wigs. Or even the doll Ned gave her in S1.

      – End Trivial Comment >> Unintended Mini-Whinge –

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    24. I fully expect this season to be amazing. They have the most lofty expectations of any series ever made. I know they’re taking things seriously. And it makes me even more excited to see things through to the end.

      As far as Tyrion, I believe the end of his journey will be one few people see coming. Him becoming the Hand to whatever leader Westeros installs post “Long Night 2.0” seems too cut and dry for someone with such a complex arc like Tyrion’s.

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    25. Ten Bears,

      Oh! Don’t sell the memory capacity of corsets short! (joking ;D) I mean, when you’re laced into a corset so tight that your organs start to merge into one Mega Organ and you get sick at the costume convention you’re attending to show off your shapely bosom-ed self, oh wow. I mean, the way the Mega Organ all moves together as one to get the vomit up at a brisk pace is truly a memory to remember forever 😉

      But seriously, I’m wondering the same thing as you. A corset?? The Sansa Storyboard and note sound truly lovely but… a corset? Then again, maybe it has special personal meaning for ST, a little like my first one has special meaning to me 😉

      I also totally agree with the 33/33/33 audience reaction prediction.

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    26. Sounds like Tyrion is a goner. They said there would be betrayal and Tyrion is one of the top candidates for it after his little Lannister lovefest last season. I never thought he’d be Lord or Hand or anything. He was written with the qualities to fill those roles from day 1, so it’d just be poor writing to develop him and then he just ends up with the challenge of tackling something he could’ve done at any moment in the story.

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    27. Adrianacandle,

      I admit to having no personal experiences with corsets, though I can see how they’d leave lasting memories. It’s just that … I’d think the actresses and actors deserve something iconic associated with their characters. For instance:

      Jaime – Golden Hand
      Jon – Longclaw
      Arya – Needle & VS Dagger
      Brienne – Oathkeeper & custom-made armor
      Meryn F. Trant – Eyeballs
      Syrio – Wooden sword
      Slynt – Prosthetic severed head
      Bronn – Knives in belt behind his back
      Tyrion – Acting Hand scroll; Hand pin from Dany
      Oberyn – Spear
      Doran – Pink slip from D&D
      Jorah – Yellow shirt
      Sam – DG dagger to kill WW; Citadel book
      Olly – Noose
      Arthur Dwayne – Dawn + 2 twirling swords
      Margaery – Crown; or gown during failed Renly seduction
      Melisandre – Ruby choker or red gown
      Myranda – Bow and quiver of arrows
      Theon: “Gift” box sent to Balon
      Robert: Outgrown breastplate or S1e1 gloves
      Qyburn: Scorpion replica or wildfire pot
      Dany: Snow White flight suit?
      Sandor: Bag of silver; wine skin; dented armor: S1e1 hound helm; Lem’s cloak and boots
      Jaqen: Braavos coin
      Septa Unella: Shame bell
      Cersei: Wine glass; S6e10 Darth Cersei outfit + crown
      Ned: Ice
      Rickon: Blank page (= entire S6 dialogue)
      Davos: Box of gold coins from IB loan
      Gendry: Smith’s hammer
      Olenna: Weird hat, or snapped quill
      Joffrey: Crossbow
      Tormund: Club used to smash Lord of Bones
      NK: Ice Javelin
      Khal Drogo: Gold belt
      Barristan: LC of Kingsguard cape; or sword thrown at Joffrey’s feet
      Beric: Flaming sword
      Thoros: Rum flask

      Oh, I don’t know. I figure years from now all of these actors will remember their time on GoT as a unique, once in a lifetime experience. If it were me, I’d want an iconic, character-specific artifact to remind me of that special time.

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    28. “Sophie Turner, meanwhile, was at New York Comic Con this weekend promoting X-Men: Dark Phoenix, her upcoming film (it’s coming someday, I’m sure; unless the delays continue until the end of time.)”

      …………….
      Yeah, I’m feeling the exact same way about Maisie Williams in “X-Men: New Mutants.” Its release date was pushed back from 2018 to 2019; then I heard rumors about the necessity to reshoot scenes. Who knows if “the delays continue until the end of time” for that movie as well?

      Damn it! It’s bad enough that 2018 will be devoid of any live-action TV or film appearances by Maisie Williams. (Voice work in animated films don’t count in my book.)

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    29. Ten Bears,

      Oh yes, I 100% agree with you! I was just being facetious before 😉 Yes, I agree that the actors should get something iconic associated with their character, like the items you listed.

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    30. Ten Bears,

      The remaining 1% only stoked if Cersei marries the Night’s King and they rule dead westeros until the end of time.

      Sometime, in the remaining time that encompasses all of the end times, Benjen Coldhands rides in from the cold dead lands and starts an occupy kings landing movement that unfortunately, never catches on

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    31. got_tv_fan:
      Any insight into the veracity of the Tyrion “leaks”?I doubt they are true, but certainly a tragic end for the character if they are true.

      Dude. You didn’t need to drop specifics for this to be considered spoiler-y leak discussion. And I was as polite in my request as I need be. Why so defensive? Just, kindly, cover that shit up.

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    32. Sunday April 21st 2019 would be a great day for Season 8 episode 1 to premiere – The episode title could be
      “Risen from the Dead”

      The Targaryens now have 2 and possibly 3 – The Night King has risen and the Army of the Dead has risen from the Dead –

      Happy Easter Sunday 2019 – Game of Thrones will be risen from the Dead – I think Easter Sunday is the same day in the USA and Europe

      4 weeks later

      Sunday May 12 2019 could be about the time Danerys has her child – Happy Mother’s Day 2019

      All the episode would be shown before the end of May and be eligible for the 2019 Emmys.

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    33. I know many fans feel Tyrion is safe and will help build what comes after the wars. GRRM, however, has referred to Tyrion as “the villain”, which is startling considering the books still have Ramsay and Euron running amok. Even supposing he meant a villain and not The Villain, it is hard to see show Tyrion as a villain. Over the last 2 seasons, I’ve been surprised that we haven’t seen more of Tyrion’s dark side emerge as it did in ADwD. Perhaps a sudden and drastic turn is coming to align with GRRM’s ending, and a villainous Tyrion meeting a tragic end would certainly be something many fans would not see coming.

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    34. MMJ:
      The threats can only be Dany and Cersei. She already saw Dany as a threat in S7. Sansa fights to make sure the Starks stay alive, Jon is protected as the heir, and no one threatens their home. The Starks are at risk for being singled out for being in “open rebellion” by two queens. My bet is that Dany isn’t the protector here–Sansa is. You can only have one person in the “momma Stark” role.

      And several possible traitors would be threats as well. As to the protectors, that would be Jon and Arya and-magically-Bran. Dany has already sacrificed a dragon to protect Jon. Since the Starks will be her new family, she will protect them too.No doubt Sansa will help by strategisinh I’m the war against the queen. The true protecting requires willingness to be sacrificed, and that is not a Sansa trait.

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    35. To best of my knowledge there haven’t been any known genuine leaks; I am avoiding them too. There have however been a few snippets about actors on location and filming certain scenes but the context is missing. Any rumours of leaks now cannot be verified or truly debunked until the trailer drops and I would guess we are a month or two from that.

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    36. Jo-el:
      “…was at New York Comic Con this weekend promoting X-Men: Dark Phoenix, her upcoming film (it’s coming someday, I’m sure; unless the delays continue until the end of time.)”

      A week ago the trailer released said June 7th, 2019. https://youtu.be/QWbMckU3AOQ

      Actually the joke is that when the trailer was first released, it said Feb.14, then 2 days later they moved it to June 7, and this was after a initial Nov.2018 release date… so yeah, it has been moving around more than normal, the people at FOX are really trying to figure out the best release schedule I’m sure, but unfortunately they keep changing their minds a lot (and publicly) with many of their upcoming films, so it can be frustrating especially if you are anticipating the films!

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    37. Chreechree,

      I tend to agree, that Tyrion won’t make it. Not sure about full-on villainy… But, maybe… A shady deal gone wrong?
      I feel like we haven’t seen the really f’d up Tyrion in the show- he’s shown more just drunk and generally miserable following his act of kinslaying and exile in Essos. In the books, we see a bit more of the mental anguish and true darkness that came with it. A descent into villainy could be a very unexpected twist for him, but not sure if I see it going that way, especially so late in the game. His meeting with cersei, however, and the later shot of him outside Dany’s cabin, did seem a bit suspect…

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    38. Chreechree:
      I know many fans feel Tyrion is safe and will help build what comes after the wars. GRRM, however, has referred to Tyrion as “the villain”, which is startling considering the books still have Ramsay and Euron running amok. Even supposing he meant a villain and not The Villain, it is hard to see show Tyrion as a villain. Over the last 2 seasons, I’ve been surprised that we haven’t seen more of Tyrion’s dark side emerge as it did in ADwD. Perhaps a sudden and drastic turn is coming to align with GRRM’s ending, and a villainous Tyrion meeting a tragic end would certainly be something many fans would not see coming.

      I’ve never heard Tyrion referred to as a ‘villian’ and how they have portrayed him in the show, that would be a hard left turn to make… I can see him being conflicted fighting against his family and having divided loyalty, they have definitely setup that as a potential narrative considering some of the vague or hanging moments we have with Tyrion in season 7, still up for interpretation or just foreshadowing season 8?

      Tyrion showed his darker tendencies in Clash of Kings when he was the Hand, he relished his power and it didn’t take him long to abuse it when he could. Still, I never saw him as ‘the villian’ just another character with a lot of shades of grey and very real weaknesses – all of which they rewrote or left out of the show.

      Should be interesting if you are right, he is like the most universally loved character – most people like/love him so if you are right, I hope they write it well! but even so how it is handled might not come off entirely as villainous, but understandable from his point of view…

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    39. Stark Raven’ radThe true protecting requires willingness to be sacrificed, and that is not a Sansa trait.

      Everyone has the ability to make important contributions. She would be trying to keep them alive so they can continue fighting. Plus, even when people are fighting, they’re not just going out there to die. They are fighting for their own lives too. Qhorin shut that sacrificial hero propaganda down on Jon and he was right to do so. The point is to not die.

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    40. Chreechree,

      You’ve got your info completely wrong. That interview was way back in ‘98, when Clash came out. He was in fact still talking about his original outline in that interview when no one even knew what his original outline was! You know the one where Tyrion burns Winterfell to the ground and swiches sides and falls in love with Arya and is the bitter rival of Jon Snow for her love…. His remarks made no sense actually.

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    41. Shit, I tried to find that interview for people who are curious. Used to be on Westeros.org somewhere I thought and it’s long gone from amazon, but some people at previously TV posted an archived web link for it (thx goes to peeps there)

      https://web.archive.org/web/19991013131915/http://cyberhaven.com/books/sciencefiction/martin.html

      Eonwe,

      Probably, but it looks like Martin wanted Tyrion initially to be THE villain, not “a villain”, from his own writer’s perspective. There’s a ton of interviews out there after Swords where he’ll say Tyrion is dark, controversial, complex but he no longer refers to him as THE villain of the novels. His story changed a lot and there’s proof of that. By all means though, consider Tyrion a villain. It’s not like he’s a white knight after all. He’s done some pretty terrible acts for sure since Clash. That prostitute on Essos sure thinks he’s one after he’s forced himself on her and she’s right too. Hero for one, villain for other.

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    42. It’s been quite a while since I’ve read the books cover to cover, but from what I remember of my perspective of Tyrion is that it changed as the story progressed. I actually think George has made him a “better” character as he’s gotten further into it. Maybe he wasn’t going to make him a terrible person but perhaps he was going to be more on the rotten side. With so many years of thinking, writing and story evolution maybe he’s decided to take him another direction. ?

      I do recall being a bit upset when reading the Battle of the Blackwater that Tyrion wasn’t killed. So up to that point I was reading him as a character I wanted eliminated. Shortly after that in the story my perspective changed and I didn’t want him to die anymore. That of course is because of the writing; his words and actions were more on the ‘right side’ imo. Peter’s portrayal of the character, along with D&D’s writing made him a more likeable character from the very start of GoT than one might get from reading, with very little to make people think otherwise since. That is also just my opinion but is accurate for me. Show!Tyrion has always been very “open” for the viewers as we’ve seen and heard what he’s thinking and planning, and it’s typically felt like he was on the good side. Due to this I’d feel it a bigger stretch on the show than in the books for him to suddenly switch to an Evil guy.

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    43. Stark Raven’ rad: “The true protecting requires willingness to be sacrificed, and that is not a Sansa trait.”

      For over fifteen years now, my sister has had a framed handwritten note from our brother on her wall that reads simply: “Better to die a hero. You played great!”

      He was referring to teaching her to play tennis. Instead of giving in to her instinct to merely “survive” by lobbing the ball back with a powder puff swing, he had succeeded in convincing her to smash returns. Even if she lost the point by having the shot sail out of bounds or hit the net, it was more rewarding and more fun to take that risk and have a chance at glory by hitting a laser beam for a winner.

      I know that’s not an apt analogy. However, whenever I see that framed message, I’m reminded how I’d prefer characters to go out in a blaze of glory – willing to sacrifice themselves in heroic fashion instead of just playing it safe and “surviving.” Dying as a hero in service of the greater good or to protect a loved one isn’t so tragic. Failing to step up and avoiding the risk of dying just to “live on” is not a satisfying ending in my book.

      I am NOT a Sansa hater. I just think a satisfying conclusion to her story would be if she musters the courage to break out of her “I did what I had to to survive” mindset (or get past those “trust issues” everyone talks about), and shows that she’s willing to put her life on the line to protect others.

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    44. Clob,

      Book Tyrion does very despicable things back even in ACOK. And he reach his lowest point so far in ADWD where he does plenty of shitty things.

      The show eliminated those traits of him. Same with Jon Snow, turned into a paragon whereas in the books he is quite Grey as his arc goes on.

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    45. Dany is all Tyrion has. If he betrays her, it sure as hell won’t be for Cersei, unless Tyrion becomes the dumbest person on earth in season 8. Perhaps he’d betray her for Jon, but I don’t know how that would play out. I personally don’t see a Dany vs. Jon ending. I see them settling their differences without fighting each other, but anything is possible right now.

      Tyrion is worried about a succession plan for Dany, but maybe his concerns will be alleviated if Dany becomes pregnant. Then again, it could be too late. Maybe he already promised that Cersei’s child would take over after Dany, but I hope Tyrion didn’t make such an arrangement with Cersei. He should know not to trust her at all more than anyone.

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    46. MMJ,

      You’re wasting your time with that one. Their distaste for Sansa is compulsive.

      Thing’s like Sansa’s surely suicidal intent to push Joffrey off the ramparts; her efforts to save Ser Dontos, at risk of Joffrey’s wrath; and her misguided attempt to avenge her family by putting herself in harm’s way by marrying Ramsay Bolton, simply don’t exist in their world.

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    47. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: Thing’s like Sansa’s surely suicidal intent to push Joffrey off the ramparts; her efforts to save Ser Dontos, at risk of Joffrey’s wrath; and her misguided attempt to avenge her family by putting herself in harm’s way by marrying Ramsay Bolton, simply don’t exist in their world.

      Yeah, you’re probably right. It’s a waste of time. I’m off to write a fanfic where Arya rushes in sacrificially trying to save Ned and gets killed in the process and accomplishes nothing.

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    48. Mr Derp,

      They’ve rather fudged Tyrion’s expectations of Dany.

      All that talk of “building a better world” has been pretty hollow, since we don’t really know whether Tyrion expects her to revolutionise the way Westeros is ruled (i.e. break the wheel) or whether he simply expects her to be a better ruler than any of those in recent history.

      And therein lies the difficulty in working out Tyrion’s point of view and his potential actions in Season 8.

      As far as I can tell, Tyrion would be just as likely to lose in faith in Daenerys if she became pregnant, since it would simply guarantee a Targaryen restoration and the status quo being restored. Hardly “breaking the wheel” or “building a better world”.

      There are certain things I think it’s difficult to overlook when it comes to Dany and Tyrion. His horror at the devastation of the “Loot Train” battle and the Tarly execution. The subsequent comparison to the Mad King. The threat to execute Varys. His claim that Dany’s better than Cersei due to her listening to advisers that rein in her worst impulses.

      I think the possibility of Dany doing something that would prompt Tyrion to jump ships is quite likely.

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    49. kathy:
      Ivy,

      You only get a statue if you’re dead so I doubt she’d give away a spoiler that big.Although I’m sure all the Sansa haters will be out in full force on the Reddit boards claiming their ‘Sansa dies’ rumour is true.

      Sure, but she could be dead from old age along with everyone else if they did a flash-forward to show the world after this period of time. Which I don’t think they’ll do, but hey. I don’t expect Sansa to die, and despite not being a fan, don’t WANT her to, either. 🙂

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    50. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      All this “breaking the wheel” and “building a better world” is show only stuff to make Dany, more likeable? more hero like? Just as they did with Jon and Tyrion darker aspects.

      The truth is that Daenerys isn´t seeking the IT in the books out of goodness. Daenerys wants the IT as the last link she has to her passed family. Daenerys, homeless and (after Viserys, Drogo and Rhaego deaths) without family is seraching for her own place in the world where he can find confort and closure.

      And thus is the tragedy of Daenerys character in the books. Wandering, calling monsters her children and seeking ghosts.

      Because everytime he pictures home and hapiness she doesn´t sees the IT. What she sees is a House with a red door in Braavos and old ser Willem Darry kind smile.

      If I look back I am lost is Daenerys mantra. But she must realize that sometimes you have to look back at your own life.

      So we have this tragic arc turned into the classic Return of the King plot in the show. With baffles me because Martin wrote the books to explore the tropes he had issues. And Aragorn claiming the throne and being a good King because he was a good guy was one of them.

      I wondered what was Aragorn´s tax policy said Martin. And we got the taste with Cersei and Daenerys (and even Jon) in AFFC and ADWD.

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    51. Eonwe: I wondered what was Aragorn´s tax policy said Martin. And we got the taste with Cersei and Daenerys (and even Jon) in AFFC and ADWD.

      Nice take on Dany. And yes, I think Dance was the book where he explored the tax policy. The slavers were the baby orcs that Dany has to decide what to do with after the war. The wildlings fulfilled a similar role for Jon. They’re the unwanted, undesirable group of people and the ruler has to figure out what to do with them.

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    52. Pigeon,

      We are watching a show where twins fuck each other and had three kids. We saw last season auntie and nephew doing the deed while we were listening to Isaac creepy monotonous voice.

      If they ever do a spin-off of the Targ we are gonna see brothers and sisters fucking.

      At this point a Jon and Sansa scenario is less disgusting and more like “another day at Westeros”.

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    53. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      From what I gather, Tyrion’s own ideas about improving the world are rather murky, too. He has expressed preferences to elected monarchy but it’s not quite clear how an elected monarchy would lead to any improvements. From what we saw the mob of KL is ready to spat and throw shit at everyone they can and chare for everyone who gives it such a possibility: be it Euron, or High Sparrow, or anyone else. It’s all about bread and spectacles and not about virtues or publico bono. And so are the Iron Born, if you think of it: given the choice between Yara and Euron, they elected the murderous Euron, though it’s fair to admit that he made them players in the game much more, than anyone else. And Jon was simply murdered, when the balance of power in the NW shifted. So, all in all, there are no proofs that elections or any other element of demorcary could solve any of the westerosi problems: rather it would make things even worse.

      And when it comes to Varys, in his view a good ruler must simply have a powerful army, a right family name, and be able to intimidate the high lords and inspire the common folk. In other words, Varys leans towards enlightened absolutism.

      When it comes to Dany, IMO, she leans towards an enlightened (or well intended) absolutism, too. Tyrion sort of worned her that it wouldn’t be a solution but hardly she ever turns into a fan of democracy, especially considering that democrasy can hardly show any positive reslut so far.

      Jon’s ideas about ruling comes from Ned and it’s nothing else than a good old medieval pathernalism: a ruler should care of the subjects the way a father cares about children. Dany also made a remark about mother not leaving her children but she toasted some of these “children”, so Dany’s ideas about mothership are rather strange to say the least.

      All in all, none of the major protagonists has any consistent plan on how to make the world a better place, so I don’t expect this issue to play a major role in the final season. IMO, it will be more about saving the world with all its shortcomminings and then IDN but I guess they will have to reinvet the wheel instead of breaking it.

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    54. Inga,

      The Iron Born had an elected monarchy for Thousands of years and they where powerful until Aegon I arrived.

      The Night’s Watch has elected it’s Lord Commander for thousand of years and whitstood the passing of time. Jon’s death is the result of him acting like Julius César and less like an elected leader.

      It is also curious how the NW declining is the result of the Targ conquest. When Aegon landed the order had 10000 swordmen. Three centuries later the NW had less than 1000 men.

      What happened in Westeros is that Aegon changed the game. He forced whole realms who were bitter enemies to submit under the threat of Dragons.

      George said that the Targaryen monarchy was an absolute monarchy sustained on the power of dragons. When they lost the dragons the cracks on the system appeared.

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    55. Jorah is the one who got it right back in book/season 1.

      “The small folk pray for bounty full harvests and short winters”.

      Book Varys has plenty of different ideas about the ideal monarch from his show counterpart.

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    56. Re: “an elected monarchy” – I’m visualizing, at best, something like the early American system where the wealthiest white dudes elected one of their own number to “preside.” Not the rabble, only the elite, could vote originally.

      Most likely, “breaking the wheel” per Daenerys might entail a parliamentary system in which all the lords would sit and make laws, and could have some effect on the powers of the monarch – who would still be “selected” the traditional way: birth or conquest.

      Anybody envisioning a 20th century style democracy is, I think, watching a different series!

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    57. zandru,

      “Breaking the wheel” for Daenerys is morelike “no more Houses grabbing for power. All will be beneath me.” She hasn´t entertained so far a parliamentary system in the series or the books. And we don´t have to go to modern systems like the US. England back in the middle age was the first one.

      Her show attitude towards power looks more like that of Louis XIV “L´Etat c´est moi”.

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    58. zandru: Most likely, “breaking the wheel” per Daenerys might entail a parliamentary system in which all the lords would sit and make laws, and could have some effect on the powers of the monarch – who would still be “selected” the traditional way: birth or conquest.

      According to her own words, she’s going to crush all the “spokes” on the wheel. That includes ALL THE HOUSES. So, no Lords. She says it’s a “wheel that has rolled over rich and poor.” Wut? Is she Stalin using Marxist rhetoric? So in practice this would look like a pyramid where she’s at the top and underneath her is “everyone else.” Kind of like what she did in Meereen. In other words, the only parliament they’ll need is HER; the only justice system they’ll need is HER; and anyone who disagrees with this can feel the burn, presumably.

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    59. zandru,

      I would rather envision something like the electect monarchy of the Polish-Lithuanian Comonweath. Unfortunately, as a historian, I know it too well to be enthusiactic about all the “chichen wars” although the Hound may love them:)

      In shorth, I don’t think that the story is moving towards any kind of social change: we haven’t got any characters who could potentially represent that. All the main protagonists are princes and princesses and lords and ladies; the common folk could be represented by Varys or Davos or Gendry in a way, but none of them are leaders of the masses or has any connection to the masses – basically none of them is a common folk anymore. So, my bet is that after the war for dawn Westeros will move into the phase of contralisation and absolutism, just like the good old England after the War of Roses. The great houses will be destroyed – the Starks may outlast them all but their time will come, too, one way or another. So there will be no-one to challenge the ruling dynasty. And though some sort of a parliament may be established, it will be backing the monarchy rather than challenging it. Therefore, democratisation will be a tale for another time/show.

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    60. MMJ,

      Exactly. Dany is a revolutionary whose power rests on the entusiasm of the mob: in Essos she used a slave army (allegedy freed but it’s not like the Unsullied had a real choice not to follow her) and the Dothraki. In Westeros she also expected to be supported by the common folk and, although the common folk has not shown her any support so far, IMO she’s still looking for ways to win it (and she may succeed if she really makes a great input into the war for the dawn). But he care about an abstract common folk won’t stop her from being an autocrat. She may learn to be more cooperative only in case she is forced to work with her equals (namely, Jon). Otherwise her best intentions pave a straight road to hell.

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    61. Eonwe:
      Clob,

      Book Tyrion does very despicable things back even in ACOK. And he reach his lowest point so far in ADWD where he does plenty of shitty things.

      The show eliminated those traits of him. Same with Jon Snow, turned into a paragon whereas in the books he is quite Grey as his arc goes on.

      I’m so sorry for such a long reply to your comment, Eonwe, and please stick with me! I’ve seen a few comments in this vein (book Jon vs. show Jon) and I’d like to voice my opinion on this – please bear with me!

      I don’t think the Tyrion and Jon book characters are really comparable in this way. Tyrion does legitimately become a more troubling character. Yeah, Jon is a bit more grey and more complicated in the books but he’s really not that grey – especially in the ASOIAF setting. His goal, a lot like in the show, is trying to save as many people as he can and he does put himself in the line of fire to do it. The worst (or greyest) action Jon takes is the baby switch, which is terribly terribly cruel to Gilly – but even then, Jon does it to save a baby from being burned alive and does everything he can to keep Gilly’s baby safe. It’s beyond devastating to Gilly, that can’t be argued, she’ll feel it forever, that forced separation from her son, and suffer. This weighs heavily on Jon, as it should. Yet, I don’t think this is on level with what Tyrion’s becoming. Tyrion is the “greyest of the grey” while Jon’s resides in hero area. Failed hero area (despite his best efforts, Jon’s inability to stay neutral truly leads to his downfall with every step he takes in ADWD) but his instincts and morals are intact.

      Anyway, long post, but Adam Feldmen did an excellent series of essays on both Jon and Dany’s ADWD arcs. When his essays on Dany were published, they were sent to GRRM, who read them and expressed that he was pleased somebody got what he was trying to do. In a nutshell, they cover how Jon’s hero’s instinct and urge to right wrongs all lead to the Pink Letter and his stabbing in ADWD. I think this is where the subversions in Jon’s book arc lie, that and the more mundane aspects and problems of ruling, which Jon struggles with all the way through in trying to get everyone to work together.

      In my opinion, I think key elements of Jon’s character from book to show align (bigger picture, wanting to save people, conflict between love and duty, eg. discarding his battle plan to try and save Rickon in the show and discarding Night Watch’s neutrality to try and save Arya in the books). However, many of the intricacies (and some of Jon’s intellectual approaches to problems) are lost. Jon’s ADWD plotline was very simplified. I don’t wholly disagree with the simplication because, like the plots of all the characters, there isn’t enough airtime to show it all but yes, it all is very simplified and distilled from a very complicated series of books. Still, I think Jon in the books is more complicated, he’s still on the lighter side of grey for me and is definitely a hero-type character (human, flawed but moral) while Tyrion is… well, as GRRM put it, “the greyest of the grey.”

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    62. Inga,

      Would be hard for Westeros to be ruled whithout them. Even Aegon knew that he needed them to keep the kingdoms together. Hence why he raised the Tyrells to lords of the Reach after all the Gardeners died.

      We saw in ADWD how as soon as Dany left Yunkai and Astapor either fell into anarchy or back into the masters being in power.

      Wondering how it´s going on things for Daario in Meereen.

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    63. Inga: She may learn to be more cooperative only in case she is forced to work with her equals (namely, Jon).

      Forced cooperation – great oxymoron!
      Is Jon an equal? She’s never once called him king.

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    64. MMJ,

      I’m not trying to get into a back and forth about whether one thinks Jon is her equal or not, but D&D do specifically mention them being equals in the Inside the Episode for 7×06.

      And for the sake of accuracy, it must be stated that Dany does call him a King in the cave scene. I believe she also refers to him as the King in the North in a private scene with Tyrion, and at the Dragon Pit.

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    65. Jay Targ: And for the sake of accuracy, it must be stated that Dany does call him a King in the cave scene. I believe she also refers to him as the King in the North in a private scene with Tyrion, and at the Dragon Pit.

      What I mean is, she never once uses the title as a sign of respect or as a gesture of equality. She calls him “their king” in the same sentence she’s telling him to bend the knee. In the dragonpit, she calls him King in the North while knowing that’s not his title anymore. Whatever she calls him in private with Tyrion doesn’t count either. She doesn’t offer him the same respect in public that he offers her. That’s not equality.

      D&D say a lot of b.s. to hype up Jon/Dany as a smooth sailing love story and I’m sure it’s to play with the audience expectations. After their S5 trolling people should side-eye whatever they say.

      What’s interesting to me is that they made sure Jon was on top in bed at the same time Bran was calling him the heir to the Iron Throne. I can’t wait for that foreshadowing to manifest into the political game.

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    66. I’ve been thinking about Tyrion’s fate for quite a while now. GRRM once said he is one character he would least likely to kill off which means D&D probably would.

      I bet it goes down like this, Tyrion begs for Dany’s mercy to spare Cersei and her unborn child. Dany probably having lost someone significant to Cersei could be Jorah or Missandei, decides to off her anyway, now Varys working behind-the-scenes to get a “safer” ruler for the realm Jon Snow or Sansa decides to recruit Tyrion. Dany discovers their impending betrayal and proceeds to punish them, with her final words onscreen and probably GoT’s final line which would be “Dracarys.”

      To ba fair, Dany did warn Varys and Tyrion was in the room when she did so you guys if you ever betray her, you’ve had it coming!

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    67. MMJ,

      I was simply pointing out that Dany has called him a King (to Jon and others), so the statement about her never calling him King was inaccurate.
      You’re clarification is simply how you interpret those scenes, which is totally fine, I take no issue with it.

      MMJ: D&D say a lot of b.s. to hype up Jon/Dany as a smooth sailing love story and I’m sure it’s to play with the audience expectations. After their S5 trolling people should side-eye whatever they say.

      I don’t think they’ve hyped it up as a “smooth sailing love story”.. One simply has to look at the 7×07 Inside the Episode

      “Just as we’re seeing these two people come together, we’re hearing the information that will inevitably, if not tear them apart, at least cause real problems in their relationship. And she’s his aunt.”
      -DB Weiss

      and

      “It complicates everything on a political level, on a personal level, and it just makes everything that could have been so neat and kind of perfect for Jon and Dany, and it really muddies the waters.”
      -David Benioff

      So yeah, sure I suspect D&D want us to root for them (in a way), but I definitely wouldn’t call it smooth by any means.

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    68. Jay Targ,
      “Muddies the waters” and “Problems in their relationship” is quite tepid language in comparison to what I’m expecting to happen – Dance 2.0. They make it sound like they’ll just have a lovers’ quarrel and get over it or amicably break up. It’s better to ignore D&D and just use your own judgements about what you see on screen. And I dont see Dany respecting Jon in any capacity.

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    69. MMJ:
      Jay Targ,
      And I dont see Dany respecting Jon in any capacity.

      Why is that? Dany asks for his advice and takes it twice. Once when Jon tells her not to attack KL and next when he advises her that they should sail together for WF. Dany herself tells Jon that though she disagrees with his decision to tell Cersei about bending the knee, she respects him for that decision. It’s quite clear that Dany thinks well about Jon’s intellect and leadership.

      At least she’s far better than Sansa in the North, who constantly questions everything Jon does, keeps telling him that he is wrong and demands that he listen to her superior advice because she apparently knows better. Compared to Sansa’s constant whining about Jon not listening to her, Jon and Dany seem to treat each other like equals and come to understand each other pretty well by the end of the season.

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    70. Regarding Tyrion’s continuing arc (downward, it looks like to me), it strikes me as odd that Varys would have spent so many decades trying to bring back the Targaryen regime, most lately in the person of Daenerys and her dragons, and both Varys and Tyrion having seen said dragons in action, back in the slaver cities — and now, all of a sudden, they’ve become sensitive, even squeamish, about using the dragons and their power in Westeros. That, and afraid of letting Dany ride her dragons as a leader.

      I’m not seeing how this is consistent with the rest of these two’s stories so far. Perhaps season 8 will resolve it; I know GRRM will provide a more satisfying character and plot development than the spectacle-heavy, bumper-sticker dialog that television requires. (Not that I’m not really enjoying it!)

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    71. Jay Targ,

      Me too. Tyrion loves Jaime more than anyone, and the only time he sobered up was when he was with Shea, and then married to Sansa. He only spiraled out of control when those relationships soured. And of course.. he could wind up dead.

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    72. Sernoname,

      Bryan Cogman disagrees about the whole “Sansa undermining Jon thing”.

      zandru,

      At the risk of sounding like a heartless bastard. But it isn´t the same seeing foreigners from a faraway land being burned than seeing it done to your own countrymen. It hit harder when it hits home.

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    73. Eonwe: But it isn´t the same seeing foreigners from a faraway land being burned than seeing it done to your own countrymen.

      You make a good point. The presence of Jaime also made a huge difference for Tyrion, I’m sure, much more than the “countrymen” or even “Lannisters”. Also, everyone Tyrion saw getting burned in Essos was somebody who was attacking them. In Westeros, it was just a peaceful convoy (of looters, but who’s counting?)

      Looking ahead, I hope Daenerys does a better job of invading Westeros in the coming books (have faith!) than she has in the teevie thing. But, given B&W know how the story is supposed to go, probably not! (“Aegon VI” has been doing pretty well for himself.)

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    74. Stark Raven’ rad: The true protecting requires willingness to be sacrificed, and that is not a Sansa trait.

      So you missed the scene in 1-10 where Sansa was willing to kill Joffery even at the loss of her own life ?
      Add the book scene and also her going to the godswood alone, she even brought a knife.
      She already proved she die for family.

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    75. Grail King: So you missed the scene in 1-10 where Sansa was willing to kill Joffery even at the loss of her own life ?
      Add the book scene and also her going to the godswood alone, she even brought a knife.
      She already proved she die for family.

      Who are you thinking that she had in mind to protect, with her dad’s head already on a spike? She wanted to push Joffrey because she hated him for what he did, not to protect anyone else. Of course, killing Joffrey would certainly help anyone else in his weird little path, but as she would shortly follow him, what purpose would that have served? Do you suppose Cersei would have said “Oh dear, the Stark girl killed my son. Ah well, her siblings and mother didn’t have anything to do with it, so we won’t seek revenge of any sort.” Sansa’s family would have been even more screwed.

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