We have new information about Game of Thrones filming in Peñíscola, Spain today, courtesy of an extensive report from Los Siete Reinos.
The report brings us new photos of season 6 scenes being filmed, but the most exciting piece of information is that L7R’s cameras have captured a scene filming new cast member Melanie Liburd. The actress is performing a scene as a red priestess, confirming her role in season 6.
SPOILERS beyond!
It was first reported in May that there would be a beautiful and magnetic priestess joining the show. A leaked audition later provided more background, including the name “Kinvara” for the character, and confirmed that she was a High Priestess of the Red God, one who serves the Lord of Light much like Melisandre. The audition confirmed the character would be visiting Meereen and interacting with Tyrion and Varys.
In the scene filmed today, Kinvara (if the audition name is the real one for the character) addresses the people of Meereen, as they flock to her.
Other scenes were filmed, including this sequence involving the Unsullied around the famous wall with “Kill the Masters” scrawled on it. (Well, the Peñíscola version of that wall!)
Peter Dinklage and Conleth Hill were also filming in the area, as Tyrion and Varys traveled around the city.
L7R reports that Tyrion and Varys filmed another scene in the afternoon near the Plaza Santa Maria, involving a green scene that’s believed will be used to create a port. In the scene, Varys says goodbye to Tyrion and calls him “The world’s most famous dwarf.”
Additional filming was done with Tyrion and Missandei (Nathalie Emmanuel), and a handful of extras, in the same gardens used on Monday.
L7R has also heard that scenes will be filmed involving extras playing hungry characters, confirming the information we’ve received recently hinting that Meereen may be experiencing a famine.
Thanks to Los Siete Reinos for the thorough report. Visit their full article for more photos and videos of the extras!
HODOR!!
Hodor !
Meereen is certainly turning into quite a Quagmire. Let’s see what Tyrion can do to salvage the situation there. Should be interesting to see what decisions he makes
I hope they leave that priestess in meeren. Last thing we need is another melisandre.
Interesting that Varys is apparently leaving.
Modor !
Time for
Varys leaving Mereen??
*rubs palms*
This season is going to own!
Sean C.,
A good guy who left Ros to die and didn’t shed a tear, and who tried to put Viserys in the Iron Throne.
Sean C.,
I dont see Show!Varys as a straight up good guy, he has had some slimy moments. I can see his character on the show going back to KL to cause some chaos, especially if they have a good idea that Dany has been found, is safe, and is on her way back to Meereen with a horde of Dothroki and ready to FINALLY head to Westeros
Sean C.,
I don’t think he’s been wholey good. Look at what he did to that sorcerer in Season 3.
Sean C.,
The guy who captured the wizard who made him a eunuch and brought him in a box to King’s Landing, all to get his revenge? Sure. An uncomplicated good guy. No grey area at all!
Maybe he’ll pick up Gendry on the way back. He’s got to have reached Slaver’s Bay by now.
Sean C.,
I wouldn’t say he was played as a good character. Rather he was played as a character that likes for everybody to believe that he is good. He comes off as rather manipulative. And it was implied in the first season that he might be responsible for both this war (as much as Littlefinger, who does his own share of manipulation for his
own reasons), but also the previous war (the Robert Rebellion). In the books his motives actually make a lot of sense, if some speculations turn out to be true, although I’m not sure how they would explain it in the show, considering that certain character seems to be cut.
So, they cut YG from the show and now Varys is for some people a completely different character? Please!
Do we know the director of these scenes?
mau,
Without YG, TV-Varys has conspired for years to put Viserys in the Iron Throne. Viserys!
Tywin of the Hill,
He was the last male Targaryen.
Huh, to be fair, he pretty much told Ros that Petyr was one of the most dangerous men in Westeros, and wasn’t aware of her death until Littlefinger himself told him.
Also, was he supposed to cry for her? It’s not like he loved her.
He did try to save Shae, btw.
In truth, I’d say fans were the ones who killed Ros, for whining at every appearance she had on the show. So, shame on ye. Shame, shame, shame *ring, ring, ring*
Tywin of the Hill,
He didn’t leave Ros to die. He was shown to be genuinely appalled when he learned she was dead.
Luka Nieto,
The show did not present that as reason to regard him as morally ambiguous. Best signified by them not having Tyrion say anything in objection, and the fact that, if you look at Unsullied fan reactions, it’s not generally viewed in such a light.
mau,
Changing his whole motivation is a pretty big change (not to mention them presenting “I want to save Westeros from the horror of Robert Baratheon by unleashing a horde of Dothraki to put Viserys on the throne” completely straight as something meant for the good of the realm), but regardless, it isn’t just that. Varys in the books is presented as every bit as sinister as Littlefinger, whereas the show version has come to be presented as Littlefinger’s “good” opposite number. Hence, no army of mutilated child spies, his manipulations of Tyrion have been removed, etc. He was a bit more ambiguous in the first season, but that was back when the show was largely just copying the text; as the show has departed from it, so has Varys’ depiction.
Morgoth,
He didn’t try to help her, but to remove her from Tyrion.
Tywin of the Hill,
I do agree with you, but he couldn’t have known that Viserys was the asshole that he was.
Sam the Slayer,
Sure he could have. That would just require actually monitoring him, which you would think he would be doing if putting him on the throne is his whole plan.
Complaining about Varys being too ”good”, reminds me how ridiculous book-purists trully are.
mau,
So that’s all Varys is? A Targaryen loyalist? In the books,
What do we have in TV? Someone who “saw Robert Baratheon for the disaster he was” and “decided to support a Targaryen restoration.” And Robert was no saint, but Viserys would have been just as bad as Joffrey as king. He was not a man fit for “saving the realm.”
Tywin of the Hill,
YG is none of those things.
Honestly disappointed that Varys will be leaving. I guess he will conveniently leave before Dany arrives? They set it up last season like he’d be a new member on her council, and I want a Varys-Dany scene damnit!
I also agree with an above poster in that for Show-Varys, his KL actions would be way out of character. Is Varys manipulative and sneaky? Yes.(And him getting revenge on the older man who chopped off his dick as a child is hardly as evil an action as everyone in this thread is making it out to be imo.) But pretty much at every turn Varys has been shown as a good guy. He wants to make the realm stable. He wants a good and just ruler, and an end to the horror that Westeros has gotten used to. He risked his life to save Tyrion. He tried to save Shae. Etc etc etc
And how are people trying to twist the Ros thing as something evil Varys did? She died. He was shocked. The end. He didn’t do anything.
Mihnea,
In fact, all I did initially was point out that he’s different. Whether you think that’s a good thing or not is up to the individual.
I really hope when Dany is back she doesn’t get involved by any BS that red priestess tells her.
If Varys is really going back to KL, I didn’t get the point of him in Meereen then. He will have spent what, 3 episodes there?
Sometimes it is better to admit that you are wrong than to create arguments that makes no sense at all.
So, your argument is the reaction of some fan’s to that scene? Which fans? So if some fans laughed during the Red Wedding that would clearly mean that that scene was comedic?
He is supporting Targaryen restauration in both mediums. Everything else is just a fan theory.
Sean C.,
Hello Sean! I remind you we agreed to not talk to one another, so I would appreciate if you did that!
My comment was not a reply to yours, and honestly I don’t even read your comments, but I apologies if you felt that I adressed you.
Thank you!
So they film in the weekends too? The crew must work so hard!
Tyrion in Meereen in Season 6 = Tyrion in KL in Seasons 2,3.
Nice to have the confirmation of Kinvara; she doesn’t just spend time with the higher-ups, but goes out to the masses. The famine is interesting. Did SotH have anything to do with it, I wonder.
Also, I wonder which episode Varys leaves. I hope he stays at least till mid-season. I would like at least ONE scene between Varys, Daenerys and Tyrion.
Mihnea,
Is it confirmed that Varys leaves?
Or is this just speculation?
I would belive the second option more, as the people at Los siete reinos are books readers, lets leave it at that, so they may speculate what happens based on the books, wich don’t matter that much anymore.
Tywin of the Hill,
Everything he said about YG is the reason so many of us hate that plot twist. So that is what makes a good ruler? That is GRRM’s vision? After everything he wrote in 5 books he offered us that fairy-tale version of perfect king that just doesn’t fit with ASOIAF.
I mean a literate man who could talk many languages is what makes a good king?!
Tywin of the Hill,
Ah yes, but you completly ignore the way he was with Tyrion/Griff.
A spoiled, stupid brat. And this comes from someone who belived he was the real deal.
But I expect nothing else from you, you probally still think Stannis will leave.
And this is where I stop this ”disscussion” with you, as it is clearly off-topic. Have a good day/evening!
Not “some fans”. The bulk. The show is pretty straightforward in how it presents the characters; the way people react to them is generally a decent gauge of how the show wants us to perceive them. Now, occasionally either the show doesn’t succeed, or else audience prejudices may be involved, but in general it holds. Varys has been presented as a good guy, and the audience generally sees him as one.
The Blackfyre theory
mau,
In fact, everything Varys lists would be the attributes of an ideal king.
Varys is the opposite of Littlefinger, in that he has conspired to throw the entire realm in disarray as what is effectively a huge poli-sci experiment aimed at installing the Perfect King. He’s going to learn that that’s not going to work.
mau,
Don’t worry, he isn’t a ”good” ruler, wich is plain to see if you bother to pay attention to his acts, rether then what some guy, who probally hasn’t seen him in years, says.
No metter if he is real or not, he will never be king, and most likely die early.
Of course he will leave early…
The report says that Varys said goodbye to Tyrion in a greenscreen scene. So it certainly looks like he leaves. I would expect him to go back to Westeros and first make contact with Doran.
g
Why? What is so different between two versions of Varys? He has differences, but nothing more than any other character in the show.
LOL. The only character that has done something like that in the show was Ramsay.
Sean C., It’s flat-out wrong to claim that Varys has always been presented as a straight-up good guy in the show and to suggest that Tyrion’s silence in the scene with Varys and the sorcerer and the box should be interpreted as approval. That shows a complete lack of understanding of the scene. Varys is actually shot in that scene a way to suggest a sinister nature; his face is in shadow when he’s washing his hands. At the end of the scene, Tyrion is clearly horrified and terrified of Varys in that moment. He doesn’t say anything, because he’s realized just how dangerous Varys is. If someone’s revealed that they’ve spent their whole life dedicated to acquiring enough power to get revenge on someone who wronged them, do you really want to piss them off?
Wasn’t it Varys’ giving Shae those diamonds and suggesting her to leave KL (which she took as an order from Tyrion and of course refused) his plan to get Shae to plea against Tyrion, so that Tyrion would either get sentenced to the point where Varys could smuggle him out of the black cells or if Oberyn won, could convince Tyrion to leave KL – as regardless of the result, nobody wanted him there.
I mean, in retrospect one could make very good case for show!Varys to have manipulated both Shae and Tyrion, to the point where he was able to get Tyrion to go to Meereen to help Dany get out of that pickle. And lo and behold, once Tyrion is firmly placed in Meereen – Varys goes off to prime KL for the Targvasion.
Sean C.,
Spoilers man, spoilers. at least the other guy has the decency to cover his spoilers…
It doesn’t made him a bad king. And I don’t think neither Joffrey or Viserys were what we would call “literate men.”
Mihnea,
I did in my first post, as you’ll see (and we’re discussing something that isn’t going to be in the show anyway; I didn’t say anything about the end of ADWD, which has a pretty good chance of being).
M,
In isolation, you could read it that way, but the subsequent handling of Tyrion’s interactions with Varys really don’t bear that out.
So you really like to use arguments outside the story? You so often like to quote D&D or GRRM to tell you what to think about the books and the show.
You said that the show is presenting Varys as the good guy only, and many of us said that he was torturing a man to death for revenge, and you refuse to consider that because it doesn’t fit with your perception of the show?
I don’t know how fans react to Varys and you don’t know either, because there are many fans in the world outside westeros.org and Reddit ASOIAF.
Many fans like Ramsay and Joffrey, but that doesn’t mean that the show is presenting them in a good light. .
I believe in that theory, but we don’t know what YG will do in TWOW, what Varys will do, and what Dany will do. D&D know all of that, so I choose to trust them.
Maybe some utopistic version of the king, but an intelligent person like Varys should know much better. And good writer should know much better than to create that plot out of nowhere.
Undoubtedly Vary’s has learned of Cersei’s fall, along with Kevan, Mace, Martell and possibly Randayll running the council, and is concerned with stability in the Kingdom, gods forbid. Dany needs a kingdom in chaos if she’s to be welcomed by the people and Lords.
Maybe Tyrion gets some Asshai loving this season, shadow babies anyone, very using in a siege.
Your point was that Varys has been presented as a straight-up good guy in the show, which is 100% wrong, as I’ve shown.
With respect to Tyrion’s subsequent interactions with Varys being played for laughs, and Tyrion’s interactions with Varys showing trust and humour, I’d liken those to his interactions with Bronn. At no point is it ever suggested that Bronn’s a good guy; quite the opposite, in fact. However, Tyrion shows no evident fear of him and is willing to rely on him and even confide in him as a friend, even after Bronn implied that he’d murder children if he was paid enough. Just because Tyrion relies on Varys in similar fashion and is similarly open with Varys is no endorsement as to Varys being a “good guy.” Just because he’s not cringing in terror and is joking around doesn’t mean he’s not fully aware of what Varys is capable of, just like with Bronn.
It’s also Tyrion’s MO to be flippant and glib with people he knows full well are extremely dangerous and could do him great harm; he knew Dany could feed him to her dragons, but he was brazenly challenging and rude with her anyway. I suppose having been brought up around Cersei and Tywin has diminished his ability to be cowed by other people’s more sinister qualities.
Why would I not want to use the statements of the author and the showrunners? It’s a pretty good guide to what they intend. That’s not remotely the same thing as stating that they carry out their intentions well in all cases; neither GRRM nor D&D (or any author) do that 100% of the time. I think show!Littlefinger is a moron, for instance, but it’s equally clear that the writers don’t intend for me to think that.
I did consider it. It’s certainly the closest the character has come post-S1 to being presented as not being a good guy; but when viewed in the context of his whole characterization it’s not all that significant. It’s an isolated moment.
I read the commentary on this show quite extensively, in reviews, etc., and know plenty of non-reader viewers, including my brother and his friends.
It’s not out of nowhere; it completely explains Varys’ actions in the earlier books, and fulfills one of the Undying visions.
I’m really not sure why an intelligent person should not regard knowledge of the common people, learnedness, etc. as the qualities of a great ruler. And more generally, “intelligent people” have done a great many thing we would regard as wrongheaded whilst in the grip of political ideology. People have been chasing the idea of an ideal ruler since time immemorial.
He understands that scene, but just don’t want to admit that. And when Varys
he will use this same argument over and over again.
It is always the same with him. Sometime I wonder is there any point of using
arguments in discussion if he is going to ignore them all.
When it fits his imagination, he will use the show scenes, book scenes, quotes from D&D or the actors, GRRM,… But always the different criteria.
And death of
was isolated moment. Tell me one important thing that Varys has done in the books, but not in the show.
mau,
Ignoring them works best, they get bored and eventually leave/stop.
Entering ”debates” (they are not even debates, just personal opinions thrown as facts), is pointless, they feed on this. Just ”starve” them, and they will go away.
Would have been really cool to have a Dany / Varys scene this season, but it doesnt look likely… shame ! ^^
Anyway, glad we have confirmation for Kinvarra and looking forward to her presence in the show ! She could really revive the Meereen storyline !
It didn’t explain anything.,
Why they kept Dany and Viserys safe? Why they gave her a dragon eggs? Why they sent her Barristan?
mau,
But also, in the books he has an army of mutilated children acting as his spies. He’s very obviously manipulating Tyrion, into, e.g., killing Tywin, which was not in the show. And the whole feel of the character is different.
Not agreeing with your arguments is not the same thing as ignoring them; you don’t agree with my arguments, for the most part, but I have never stated that you ignore them. The only way you could view me as ignoring your arguments is if you begin from the position that you are obviously right and that anybody who doesn’t agree must be ignoring them.
That’s such a broad statement I can’t really respond to it in any detail. I’m not sure how those are “different criteria”. I use quotes from the writers as indications of what they intend; scenes from both media can be used in a wide variety of ways, whether it’s assessed on their own, in comparison with each other, or in comparison with the writers’ avowed or assumed intentions in writing them.
For the dragon eggs, they were never intended to hatch. They’re a fancy gift that just shows how rich Illyrio is, that he can afford to put on such an expensive distraction. Aegon and co. don’t lack for money, and any rich dude can own dragon eggs, so it’s not like they have a ton of symbolic value for the invasion that they’re lacking otherwise.
As for Barristan, if you believe in the Blackfyre theory there’s a pretty obvious reason why the Blackfyres wouldn’t like him that much. Also, by the time he actually sent Barristan, the dragon eggs had hatched, which meant his view of Dany had changed from her being a disposable pawn to being a genuinely valuable asset.
Reminder to please cover all your book spoilers- if it’s something that has not appeared on the show, it needs to be covered!
mau,
Why did they educate
if they planned for Viserys to take a dothraki horde?
Mihnea,
“as far as we know”
But D&D know more and they believed that is not important enough for the show.
I’m not going to speak about the feels of characters, because it is subjective and every character is in some way different from the books. Every actor brings something to his character, and every director and writers bring their vision for the characters.
It is clear that they have some differences, but as far as we know, Varys is supporting Targaryen restauration. Everything else is unclear about him in the books, Even his thoughts about Dany
If I use a scene from the show to describe characterisation of Varys and you are using your brother’s reaction, you are obviously ignoring my arguments.
Sean C.,
And you base this on..? Your speculation? Your own theories, that you carefully cultivated in years? Your hopes?
Looking at this thread it’s easy to see how a few people can fill a thread with pointless ”debates” and ruin everyone elses fun.
This is where I stop, I do not want to become that wich I hate.
I will no longer disscuss anything book related here. Don’t want to spoil other peoples fun.
This is exciting! I already posted this in the other thread, but here’s my theory:
I think she will fill the Red Priestess gap left by Mel beautifully. I’m almost 100% sure that Mel will give Jon a kiss of life early in the season, which will essentially transfer some of her soul or spirit into Jon. Hence her visions in the show of meeting Arya again and walking on the battlements of Winterfell. She’s seeing these things through Jon’s eyes, not her own.
Sean C.,
And this makes no sense.
And Varys knew that Robert would be killed, so there was a strong chance that the North and the Riverlands would support Viserys against Joffrey.
That is the reason why that plot seems to came out of nowhere.
Ugh, can we just go one day on this site without people sitting on others for having a certain opinion? I’m sorry to say this, but that makes you no better than people like Linda.
mau,
exactly! the only thing i can think of as an answer to those mysteries is that they planned for
Sean C.,
The only thing you need to know about Varys to come to the conclusion that he has not been presented “extremely straight as a good guy” on the show is the fact that he was the master of whisperers for a very long time. You don’t get to a position of great power like that from nothing by being a good guy, certainly not in the world of GoT.
And that’s not even going into the things all the others have brought up here…
But then why they gave her to Drogo?
YG plot has so many plot holes and it is hilarious how hard book purist are trying to make some sense of it. And GRRM spent 6 years writing that book! 6 years!
Er, no. I use the general audience reaction to Varys as an interpretive tool for the scene, since how the audience reads what is written is a valuable resource. It’s not infallible, by any means (I never said otherwise), but it’s useful information for interpretation, which is what is being discussed. The question is what the significance of the scene you cite is.
Why on earth would the North and the Riverlands back Viserys against Joffrey? Viserys wants revenge on the Starks and the Tullys for overthrowing his father, and neither Ned nor anybody else ever shows the slightest Targaryen sympathies.
Bareeq,
To be honest, before I read the books I thought Varys was one of the good guys and both my unsullied collegues think he’s sided with the good guys.
I think that is what he’s supposed to look, at least.
I have no idea what book Varys is up to, what’s his goal. I know that I don’t trust him, nor like him, and I don’t believe anything he says, but it doesn’t mean show Varys is like that. He can be genuinely concerned for the innocents, just like he says.
Sam the Slayer,
Disagreeing strongly with other people isn’t in the same league as virulent racism and misogyny.
They never expected the dragon eggs to be hatched: had they any idea that could be done (and any idea of how it could be done), then I suspect that they might not have given them away so freely!
But protecting Daeny & Viserys made good tactical sense: that kept the Baratheons focused on D&V, and kept them ignoring any rumors about any other Targaryens that might still be out there.
As for sending her Selmy, well, wasn’t he seeking her? So, why not do as he requested? And didn’t the plans always involve Daeny having some force, anyway?
That is a popular fan interpretation. However, in the books we read that
Also, I REPEAT, COVER YOUR BOOK SPOILERS.
Yes, I am talking to you guys. Those are book spoilers you are posting.
I’d imagine we haven’t seen the actual plans and motivation for Varys in the show or in the books yet and that’s why the show doing away with YG ends up just fine.
Of course he can. So does Tyrion for example. Doesn’t mean he is simply a good guy. Both Tyrion and Varys have done some pretty questionable things in the show and that’s putting it nicely.
It seems that “Varys in Meereen” is show-only stuff like everything he did in Season 5. They put him there to give Tyrion someone to talk to and to give the actor more screen time. If he only spends about half a season in Meereen, I doubt that he will be there for Dany’s or Jorah’s return. I can’t see the whole Daario+Jorah rescue mission happen in the books, so it looks like they are avoiding Varys and Jorah bumping into each other. I guess Jorah and Dany wouldn’t trust Varys since he was the one who send the wine merchant to poison Dany and her unborn child (on orders by King Robert) in Season 1. This is maybe the biggest contradiction in the show till now:
Why would TV-Varys have Dany killed if he was a Dany-supporter (not a YG- or a Targaryen-supporter)? If he originally supported Viserys’ claim in the show it is a stupid act, too: Without Dany and thier son, Drogo would have no reason to conquer Westeros and to give Viserys his “golden crown”, so Viserys would have lost his “army” after Dany’s death. Jorah knows that Varys wanted her dead, so why should they trust him now?
The King Who Cares,
Varys sends assassins to kill Dany, to keep his place at court.
Varys warns Jorah/Ilyrio of the assassins to save Dany. Or he sends poor assassins.
Just like Tyrion himself said, to Dany. The reason she still leaves is Varys.
Sue the Fury,
Heh, comments like this make me wish that I had opposable big toes so that I could give 4 thumbs up!
😀
Wimsey,
Sam the Slayer,
Have to agree. It seems like every post someone gives an opinion or thought, someone else takes great umbrage and gives their ‘opinion’, someone else makes a snide remark, then claims to be above it all, etc etc. Who CARES if someone’s ideas don’t jive with yours? It’s like arguing politics or religion, no one is going to change their mind and it goes on and on like Dany’s wheel.
I’m excited for Mereen this season, and a little sad at the parting of yet another great duo. 🙂
It is a valuable resource for you, you can twist every scene in the context you like. In this scene you will use your brother’s reaction, for Sansa you will use D&D words, for something else you will use only the show scene,…
I use only show as my resource. Because it is the only thing that matters. Not my brother’s opinion.
Who cares if it hasn’t entered into his calculations? It was the real possibility if Viserys had invaded Westeros. You think that Varys wanted him to fail, but he didn’t do any research of potential allies ?!
And that whole idea “lets’ help legitimate Targaryen to take 7K, so we could somehow retake it from him” is completely idiotic.
Why wouldn’t? Ned was killed and the only reason why Robb was declared the King in the North was because Targaryens are gone.
We get it,some of you hate YG.Some weird arguments though.I would have get it if it was based on some decisions he made but no,some people hate him because he was educated and trained and all that.Wow,just wow.You also hate on university graduates?Whatever,can we move on?YG is not in the show and will never be,no need to talk about him in all this articles about the show.All that plot has almost nothing to do with the show,it’s not the place here to talk about YG.I’m only saying this because it allready happened several times and it goes nowhere.We need TWOW for this.
Sue, no more news about the Hound? Just that one isolated?
I want him back.
Pigeon,
That is why I stopped. This ”debates” go nowhere. Just endless opinions.
Sue the Fury,
I was referring to the ‘he/she/it/them always do this, therefore we shouldn’t bother discussing or responding, even though they have a perfectly fine opinion’. Dismissing people for having a perfectly fine opinion you happen to disagree on is a mild case of Linda-ism, IMO.
Edit: and just to clarify, I am not defending Linda in any way here. I think she (at least on the net) is despicable and should refrain from the fandom.
mau,
I guess the differences between book and show Varys aren’t huge, but small subtle things and acts of kindness that his book counterpart did not do.
And freeing Tyrion is one big example; in the books, Varys was forced to free Tyrion, and then purposely led Tyrion to Tywin in order to kill him. That’s big difference from show Varys, who freed Tyrion because he owed him a debt, then left KL with him and led him to Daenerys.
But the only other character that has done something like that is Ramsay? What?!? Ramsay is the only one to get revenge on someone who wronged/mutilated them? Literally every character has done that.
JUST in season 5:
– Brienne chopped off Stannis’ head in revenge for killing Renly
– Arya stabbed Meryn’s eyes out and then slit his throat for killing Syrio
– Dany burned a slave master in revenge for the Harpies killing Barristan
– Stannis killed Mance for not following his orders and his own daughter in hopes that the snow would let up
– Ellaria killed an innocent child in revenge for Oberyn’s death
And we don’t even know what he did to the sorcerer. I think the sorcerer’s mouth was sewn shut, but how are we to know that Varys ordered his mouth to be sewn shut before shipping him to KL? But even if he did, he did that and probably had him killed. I just don’t see it as comparable to anything Ramsay has done.
But Drogo wanted to invade Westeros only after that attempt.
igorcarvalho,
Nothing else.
You seem to perceive these things as shifting standards. They’re not. They’re all part of how you can assess the show; it just depends on what you’re assessing. The statements of the writers are obviously most relevant to authorial intent; audience reaction is most useful when assessing how the show comes across, though it can also be used to make assessments of how the writers intend it to come across, unless you see grounds for either audience misinterpretation or a failure of communication on the show’s part.
For all the reasons I stated. Viserys hates the Starks and the Tullys, the Starks and the Tullys fought to overthrow House Targaryen and would not expect anything good out of a Targaryen restoration, and anybody who spends five minutes with Viserys would quickly abandon any notion that he was kingly material.
Wimsey,
So if I understand you, you think that YG was never meant to retake Westeros from Viserys and that was only a popular fan interpretation.
So, Varys is supporting a Targaryen restauration in the books and in the show and everything else doesn’t matter.
Ah, but there are two types of plots here. One are the plots and schemes in the books. Is this particular plotting and scheming imperfect? Yes: but much in the way that real plotting and scheming is imperfect. Basically, people are improvising as they go along. Moreover, the schemers are doing this while trying to use chess pieces that: 1) have free will; 2) spring into being without anticipation; and, 3) are being affected by factors other than the chess moves of the schemers.
This is very different from a literary (or cinematic) plot hole where two mutually exclusive things happen. Nothing in this scheme involves two events where only one event forbids the other event. There are not even anythings that where having Y happen after X happens is really, really improbable.
(I would add that I will recant on that if the fan conjecture that
But that is the big difference: that plot would involve things that should not be (not quite the same as cannot be, but very close!). Nothing in Varys’ book schemes could or even should not be: they look very much like what happens in the real world. (They just have gone from Plan A to Plan B to… let’s see… um.. Little Plan Z by now.)
I was speaking about torture.
Crucifying people can be just as bad as torturing them,even worst.It can go on for days.
I like her outfit ? , I think she’ll be great !
What about Sophie Turner and Issac (Bran) , when will they start shooting for season 6 ? And Lena Heady? I didn’t see any pics of her ? , I’m excited about them ? ..
agreed
Sean C.,
You’re an eloquent man. In my experience, eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.
You are really trying to take the discussion in a different direction.
I will simplify things.
1. There is no evidence in the books that Varys wanted war between YG and Viserys
2. There is evidence that he wanted alliance between them
3. In the show and the books he is a Targaryen-loyalist (black or red dragon is a dragon)
4. In the books he had 3 options, in the show 2 options
5. There is no reason and no evidence in the show that he is not capable of killing people, actually, there is an evidence that he is capable of doing that (in the show)
6. There is no evidence that Varys wanted YG’s invasion without Dany
Everything else is just a book puritanism.
The only plan we hear is one someone of importance noting that (at one time) his forces were supposed to join up with Viserys and Dothraki Screamers. The exact lines are (and there are no spoilers here):
“First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with 50K Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be his sister, a pliable young child queen….” (bold emphasis mine, italics from the book).
So, someone was expecting to join forces with the Dothraki, not mop them up. And, of course, the schemers were planning on Season 1, Half 1 Daeny: but she evolved into Daeneyrs Stormborn while the schemers were not looking!
Indeed, the only really implausible part of this is that the schemers were able to so readily adapt to the ever-changing circumstances: that really shows some extraordinary cleverness!
In those general terms, yes. Of course, the specifics are a little different. In the books, Varys does not intend for
For the bookreaders complaining about the showcharacters I’d like to point to a universal truth: David and DB know the books better then you and they know how it and all characters will end. So their version will always be more accurate to George’s version then your own conspiracy theory.
In the books we are initially seeing Varys mostly from the POV of Ned Stark, who intensely dislikes and distrusts him from the start. Later mostly in Tyrion’s chapters, with whom he has a much more positive relationship ( although he is obviously manipulating Tyrion to an extent). This carries over into the show in that Varys comes across as a much more shady character in S1 when they are using mostly AGoT material.
I think it is still clear in the show that Varys is in it for ‘the realm’ – we will find out more about what that actually means to him in S6..
Wimsey,
For now. But in TWOW he can see Daeny as a primary ruler, if
Heresy! “It is known” that the ONLY reason why anybody ever adapts a book to screen is because, deep down, they badly misunderstand everything that the author has done and because they also lack any respect for the source material and/or the author!
This must be true because I have read this written for every book that ever has been adapted to the big or small screen (and that had more than 10 original readers).
😀
Seriously, though, if you want the one great case study in this, then find some of the old Harry Potter websites and look up what the hardcore fans predicted would happen in the last book. (Hint: drunken chimpanzees randomly typing words would have been just as accurate, if not more so.) Then watch the movies and see how many of the “crucial” elements to the hardcore’s predictions were not in the Harry Potter films. It’s almost like the filmmakers actually knew what was important and what wasn’t…..
mau,
Yeah, well, Varys might be in for some surprises still! That is the problem with playing chess with people instead of pieces: multiple players are moving the pieces, including the pieces themselves.
Besides, I’m sure that Varys has fallback plan AA (and AB, AC, etc.) I’m looking forward to AD: “For use if mythical supernatural people from long lost legends attack….”
Notice that Emilia doesn’t have any scenes in Meereen? Kind of odd, isn’t it? How much longer is the filming in Penis cola?
Like what?
Edit
I forgot about Varys torturing the warlock, that was pretty bad
Yeah, well, if you were castrated and got your hands on the person who castrated you, then you might do worse! Few people would blame you for doing so, at any rate.
So, will Tyrion have to deal with another bread crisis ? It would be interesting to see how his experience with starving kingslanders will have an influence. He underestimated the danger at the time and did not work at all on PR.
This site can be so great for spoilers and hints for the coming season. But so very often nowadays, it’s a small handful of posters who go completely tangent to the topic, and derail threads with the same old very tiresome views. This thread is a great example. It would be so great if there was a ignore button for a handful of posters and I never had to see a single post from them again. I bet more lurkers would come post, if there were.
jentario,
At least Emilia doesn’t seem to have any outdoor scenes in Meereen so far. Her arrival in Meereen with the Dothraki would surely call for a big outdoor scene.
Book wise, Varys never intended for Viserys, let alone Dany to ascend the Throne. A Targaryen at the head of a Dothraki Horde certainly sounds scary but in reality it’s not a major threat for many reasons. Dothraki have never sailed over seas. A young prince like Viserys ( or Dany) would be unlikely to force his will on a Khal. Westeros’s navy would destroy a massive amount of Dothraki ships before they even reached the shores. A unified Westeros could withstand a Dothraki assault…just imagine if they went north in winter?! Varys wouldn’t have gambled on such a long shot. They were set up to draw Robert’s eyes away from YG…and it worked. Varys stoked the fire by releasing info about Dany’s exploits to keep the focus on her. The dragons and Dany’s success merely amped up the distraction and allowed it to pass on to the next ruler who was less Targ obsessed.
This is my worry about show Viserys if it’s made out he was backing Dany all along then it makes him look like a chancer who was taking a number of risky gambles which doesn’t fit with the intricate plan his book counterpart laid down. Although with what certainly looks like the absence of YG then I think that’s the only possibility unless they give his role to another character (woul have to be Trystane if they did surely. With the dancing of dragons being a big theme running through all of GRRM’s work then removing it from the show is going to require a lot of patching up. Varys may be a casualty of this.
Wimsey,
Just to be clear, I understand what Varys did, but I don’t approve of it and it was certainly not what “the good guy” whould have done.
Looks like they are replacing Benerro/Moqorro with her. I’m fine with that; neither were very interesting or memorable.
I liked the leaked Kinvara scene a while back, so I’m looking forward to the actress playing the Red God priestess. It has potential and it will be interesting to see how Tyrion interacts with this religion.
Varys leaving the city was something I’ve expected somehow. Sure KL is not safe for him but Meereen is not somewhere he can manipulate the rest of the Game of Thrones cyvasse pieces. He put Tyrion on the direction he wanted, so I suspect now it is time to go back and see what’s cooking in KL.
jentario,
It IS odd. Maybe Dany returns only at the end of the season to the city. Or maybe she just didn’t film her Meereen scenes yet and therefore we didn’t get a scoop for that.
TormundsWoman,
Since Euron auditioned with an audition-only scene, I’m not sure if the Kinvara audition scene wasn’t also invented for audition purposes rather than something from the scripts.
I’ll be interested to see what they have in mind for that character, though, since she appears to be the only really “major” new casting for Meereen itself. In particular, I’m interested to see what a Red Priestess would make of the dragons.
Perhaps the exact audition scene wont be featured line for line, but I’m quite sure there will be a very close equivalent in the show.
Arkash,
I’m not sure they’d bother making up wholly new scenes for every role, anyway, so I think there’s a pretty decent was chance that was a literal scene. I thought maybe they thought Euron’s book scenes were too spoilery by comparison; though Euron’s initial appearance would probably track the books reasonably closely, so I’m not sure why they’d care about that in this case.
http://s23.postimg.org/q97eor4sb/image.gif
Direwolf_Dragon on Twitter has been posting more set photos, claiming that it looks like a hurricane or a riot hit Meereen, and that one bit looks like an “Essos rubbish dump.”
https://twitter.com/Direwolf_Dragon
K Noelle,
Interesting theory.
I’m curious if the new Red Priestess will be from the slave background, like Melisandre and the priestess from season 5, or from the noble background, like Thoros. Mainly I want to see that if she was once a slave “scourged and branded” if she’ll have the face tattoo that Rila’s character had, yet mysteriously Mel does not.
mau,
Dumb and Dumber
Now all Varys talk about having something “Better for the realm” makes absolutely NO sense ~ as he was apparently intending of putting Viscerys on the throne in season 1….what a jerk.
And Marry Sue Stormborn is no better then her incest brother.
Judging, walking in shoes, etc! Seriously, the issue for stories like this is not what hypothetical and hyperbolic “good” people would do – that is for stories like Lord of the Rings – but what real people would do. Now, obviously Varys is not a main character himself: but much of the point of these sorts of stories is watching characters’ ideas of “good” and “evil” (or “right” and “wrong”) evolve and take form over a series of events. After all, nobody thinks of themselves as “evil”: the worst people in real history have all shared the conviction that they were doing “good.”
They do not need to do so: I have read that they often use cut or highly altered scenes from prior drafts. These things usually go through multiple iterations, after all.
Given what we’ve seen, I would bet that this is a character role that exists in the books. If you think about it, the book will need a character (or two) like this as Daeny moves westward. (And, no, Moqorro does not seem like a good option for these sorts of things.)
Wimsey,
From the leaked audition, she’s claiming to be the head red priest, which is a role occupied by Benerro in the books. She may be a combination of Benerro and Moqorro.
As far as audition scenes, pretty much all of the prior audition leaks we’ve gotten (post-S1, where they often used book scenes that weren’t adapted at all) have been directly from the TV scripts (though in some cases, like some of the Sand Snake auditions from Season 5, the scene itself was subsequently cut/trimmed).
I don’t always agree with Sean, but he has every right to say what he wants to say and make the points that he wants to make, as do Mau and Mineah. What makes me sad is when I see posters ganging up on others and basically bullying a poster. No more of that, please. If you want to disregard an opinion, go ahead, but no ganging up and no bullying, name-calling, personal disparagement, etc. We are the WotW, where everyone is valued!They’ll be filming a lot of scenes in Almería. I’m assuming Emilia might be in the scenes they’ll film in that Alcazaba Castle, if Dany is indeed returning to Meereen before the end of the season, as we expect.
Kargaryen,
It may also be that Dany’s return to Meereen will be basically a CGI horse horde and her flying on a dragon, which would be done via special effects, followed by interior scenes, if they don’t end up filming anything outside.
Sam the Slayer,
I agree completely. I think Sean C.often has really good thoughts and points, and is quite good at civil back and forth. Often he/she is characterized as a book purist who is a troll and not worthy of response by several other posters. Makes me sick, and is distracting from an otherwise fun discussion.
Wimsey,
Right there with you. That’s why I used quotation marks.
If Meereen is descending into utter chaos, so much so that set pieces have to reflect that, it would make sense that they would film the Meereen scenes somewhat chronologically. Show the city in better times first, then as famine and perhaps riots take over. If Daenerys is to arrive in the city, it should be at its most devastated, so that could be in the next couple of days since the Peniscola filming will be done by Oct. 6 according to a previous report.
Ashara D,
What she said!
Eh. When certain posters make statements on topics as if they’re factual statements when they’re either flat-out wrong or the issue is ambiguous, I won’t weep for them if they get called on it, and you shouldn’t either. It’s fine to have an opinion, but that’s quite different from speaking with an air of superior authority with no basis whatsoever and constantly expressing one’s opinions as if they’re facts without the “I think” qualifier. The former is fine; the latter is obnoxious.
Ashara D,
There you are! I’ve been waiting to ask you why you didn’t tell us your brother (if that is, indeed, who Luke Roberts is playing) was so gorgeous. I mean, I knew he was gorgeous, but dayum!!! Hook a sister up! 😉
I’m glad to have Ms. Liburd’s role confirmed. I, too, am interested to see how she will react to dragons. I believe someone already mentioned this, but perhaps she will be the one to
As for Varys leaving, maybe I was right about what I thought would happen at the end of season 5, just predicted it too early.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
‘ Ian Gelder (Kevan Lannister) has mentioned in his resume that he will be appearing in four episodes of “Game of Thrones” Season 6’ Source: http://www.ibtimes.com.au/game-thrones-season-6-production-update-kristian-nairn-what-hodor-could-mean-1460759
I can’t remember if this has been posted here before. To be honest I had hoped he would have featured in more episodes this season.
Indila,
That appears to a misread of an earlier WOTW post (linked in the article) that refers to Gelder returning for “4 series” of GOT, meaning four seasons (1-2, 5-6). The WOTW post doesn’t say anything about the number of episodes.
Since many of Martin’s story elements are taken from actual events during the Medieval Age, could Dany and the Dothraki represent the threat the Ottoman and Mongol Empire’s exacted on Western Europe. During the War of the Roses, the Ottoman’s were briefly making advances into Western Europe, primarily against Merchant City States, and of course a couple centuries earlier, the Mongols had pushed into Hungary and were threatening the Austrians and Bavaria.
My point being the threats never materialized in the form of an invasion of Western Europe proper, which Westeros in essence is a representation of, therefore perhaps in the books Dany and the Dothraki never cross the Narrow Sea. Yet in the books YG/AT? does invade out of nowhere, similar to Henry Tudor’s surprise invasion in the late 15th century when the Ottoman threat was strongest. Obviously GRRM is taking pieces of that and bits of those, mixing them up, yet if you read the history of Europe in the first half of the 2nd millennium, you can clearly discern the similarities.
I myself felt betrayed by GRRM in DwD, because I had invested time in and connected with Dany’s story, and YG/AT? stole her thunder. Book Vary’s was all along a YG supporter, he and Griff nurturing and educating him to be the perfect and just ruler.
I get the feeling D&D felt the same as I, thereby they cut YG (thank god) and moved those elements to Dany.
I suspect in the books, at least one dragon makes it to Westeros, warged by Bran, but Dany like the Ottoman’s and Mongol’s become mired in the internal machinations of Essos. Therefore if book Dany crosses, I’m ecstatic, if not, I won’t be too depressed.
Sean C.,
Back to R&V, I’ve noticed some folks claiming how wild they are and/or their need to be tamed. Yes, they are certainly wild, but they’re not completely disregarding Dany. She visited them at the beginning of season 5 and they didn’t try to burn her, and they burned that Master at her behest without burning anyone else, so they aren’t 100% out of her control. Of course, that doesn’t mean they’ll listen to anyone else without either some sort of special intervention, or at the very least without them having some Targ. blood.
Do you think Narin is letting something on? We know that there will be a scene with young Hodor, so could this be it?
Spoilers below:
Indeed, but not in the way you mean that. Sean C. is definitely not the problem here. I for one nearly always learn from him and find his ideas thought-provoking. Whether you agree with him or not, he makes his arguments cogently and supports them calmly and rationally. I don’t think that I have ever seen him have a hissy fit, call someone else’s ideas idiotic or resort to ad hominem attacks, even when mightily provoked. It’s the few people who automatically jump down his throat every time he posts something that they don’t agree with who are ‘ruining everyone else’s fun,’ in my opinion.
They cling to the “Kill the Masters” message in “Common Tongue” when both slaves and slavers in Meereen speak Low Valyrian..
Ashara D,
I really can’t have a respect for someone’s opinion, if he first decides what he thinks, and then why.
When we speak about
Sean C. already decided that that scene doesn’t make sense, but he knows nothing about the scene itself. Varys could be crying during that scene, he could beg Kevan for forgiveness, he could be disgusted with himself,… We don’t know that, and no one can claim with such certainty that Kevan’s death by Varys in the show makes no sense.
And for example, that poster has already decided that only logically thing that could happen with SS is their death in S6E1 and he is complaining abou that at every article about SS.
First of all, maybe they will really be executed in the first episode, maybe they will continue to work against Doran, maybe Doran will find a was to make some sort of agreement with them,.. There are so many possibilities, but that poster is already whining about something that didn’t happen yet.
Wait and see.
Regardless of what the book does, I think that the next two dragon-riders have to do what Daeny did: have some “personal” moments between the character and the dragon that lead to some visible bonding. Thrones Dragons clearly are not Middle-earth Dragons, but they clearly are highly intelligent animals that form emotional bonds with other individuals, including humans. In that way, becoming a dragon rider will further develop whoever the riders are in much the same way as the Drogon-Daeny relationship worked to develop Daeny’s character further.
It reads like this is his personal conjecture, not something that he’s letting on from the scripts. However, at this point, it would be a little surprising if the Walkers had much influence of things south of the Wall. There was conjecture a long time ago that Littlefinger was working for the Walkers (wittingly or unwittingly), but this idea seemed to die when Crows came and went without anything along these lines being developed at all.
I’m thinking Vaes Dothraki (hopefully) is almost finished!
http://oi58.tinypic.com/21oakif.jpg
Kargaryen,
It does look pretty much finished. They even set up the green screen already. Where did you get the picture from?
I love when they use all available tools —the temple is a real set, the other buildings are just facades, and then there’s the two large rectangular greenscreen walls to fill that vacant sides with (presumably) a whole city.
RpCola,
Thoros wasn’t from a noble background. He was the youngest of 8 kids and given up to the Red Priests when he was young. In a similar way to Melisandre.
We have no info whatsoever about the red priestess from Season 5’s backgorund as we only saw her for a few seconds!
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
This is, like I said, one area where it’s really hard to know how much the show’s changes and streamlining of the plot are going to affect things. It’s a common speculation that blowing the dragonhorn is going to cause V&R to go berserk, for instance, and start torching everything. On the other hand, it may succeed, only for Victarion to get felled by Euron or Moqorro’s machinations. On the show, it doesn’t look like the Ironborn are going to be involved in Meereen, so we’re left with the potential agenda of Kinvara, who is speculatively replacing a role Moqorro might have (and/or Benerro, since I believe in the audition script we were told that Kinvara is the top Red Priest).
mau,
TheTouchOfFrost,
Huh. She herself said she had been a slave… and she had the tattoo.
Here’s another one:
http://oi60.tinypic.com/5ntb9l.jpg
@ManuelSanchez__ posted them on twitter.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
What? We’re ALL that way! If I could hook you up, I would, your brave majesty! 😉
In your opinion, right? 😉 Just keep it civil, please.
Wimsey’s point about the connection between dragon and rider is why I think that Tyrion’s running the city for Dany will get him a pleasant introduction to her babies. But I also think you-all are really on to something with the sorceress’ involvement with the dragons. They’re both fire-made-flesh, so to speak. Perhaps D&D are skipping the horn and going right to direct communing of some kind.
Luka Nieto,
Did she? Must’ve forgotten. The scene wasn’t really that memorable except that look she gave Tyrion. Wonder if they planned on bringing her back in this current role that Miss Liburd has occupied but changed it for some reason. Could lend more weight to Kinarva being a version of Moqorro too as he had a similarly brief interaction with Tyrion as he was travelling to Mereen. Although come to think of it, Benerro had a similar role to the nameless Red Priestess in Season 5. Too many crimson clergy. It’s getting confusing.
There are the other issues that have come up once or twice each season: magic and related powers have become stronger since dragons returned (with or without specific mention of the dragons). Now, obviously whatever R’hllor is has had some power without their return – after all, Mel has been seeing future events that have come to pass in the flames for a while – but that does not mean that this has not become more powerful. So, it is possible that this will be in some way built upon (in show and/or book[s]) when it comes to providing rider-dragon bonds, too.
Ashara D,
I agree,that guy who insulted the showrunners is clearly a better example of a respectable poster,we should all be like him .
What I don’t understand is when Person A says something Person B thinks is hogwash, Person B so often feels compelled to challenge it. And then it’s B-A-B-A-B-A, and not like a cute little lamb. I don’t understand why, more often, Person B can’t just say what he/she thinks without even making a connection to Person A. Why must people try to fix each other? Why, Banjo, why?
Off-Topic Otto,
Because people must prove how much right-er-er they are, dammit! Hogwash! Bad writing! Terrible producers! Awful author! Purist! Show-wanker! Neener neener! ‘Popular phrase inserted here’!
Really agree with you. Sheep would be so much more endearing, as long as Drogon wasn’t around. 🙂
Unfortunately, the scene was in Valyrian, I think. That written, something about the way the scene was setup sort of screamed “Major Gun Hanging!” to me. Obviously, there was the “here-and-now” hanging of providing Tyrion with still more reason to think that Daenerys was worth seeking. However, I think that the scene might be the sort to stick in the very back of peoples’ minds: it is not so much that they will be expecting things because of it as it is that they will be quickly reminded of it next year, and thus quickly reminded that Daeny actually has a potential groundswell of support throughout Essos.
Wimsey,
I agree. That scene was very memorable to me as a show watcher, especially for the look that the Red Priestess gave Tyrion, a look that made him somewhat uncomfortable from his former flippant self. Her speech to the slaves showed there is support for Daenerys, but it also showed something else. It was, to me, a very direct parallel to the look Mel gave Jon when Stannis first arrived at the Wall.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Because of Rila Fukushima’s involvement with “Arrow” they probably had to cast another actress, and since Rita’s RP had no name in season 5, her character might have grown into Kinvara for season 6, especially the way she looked at Tyrion.
Wimsey,
Possibly. Although Quaith was quite distinctive and memorable and yet she hasn’t reappeared…yet. If she isn’t going to then I think it may have been wiser to have her peg up instead of this Kinarva. I guess it depends on what roles they’re going to play. I sense Quaithe still has a part to play in the books but whether that will cross over into the show who knows.
tyjon,
Possibly. Red Rila took elements of Benerro and Kinarva appears to be taking some of Moqorro’s parts. Just think it’s getting a bit messy introducing so many characters whom ultimately are disposable. Still ahve no idea why they cast AAA for such a tiny part last season. Or maybe it’s our fault for expecting them to be more than featured extras? Although you can’t blame us when the first couple of seasons were so tight with every character having a purpose in each plot they wandered through.
That’s hard to say. Quaithe’s inclusion seemed like a bit of gratuitous “it was in the book” stuff at the time, if I recall, although I admit that the scene doesn’t stand out in my memory. (Wasn’t it just the one scene at the garden party?) However, chances are pretty good that Kinarva (or some character or collection of characters like her) will be important in Winter. Daeny will probably run into a number of Red Priests/Priestesses campaigning on her behalf during her trek westward.
That is hardly true: there were lots of “featured extras” in every season, just as there are in every TV show. The difference was that the featured extras in the first few seasons often were attached to names from the books (e.g., various northern lords, knights, Dothraki, etc.). I do not recall the slavers ever getting named in Dragons (which does not mean that they were not named: only that it was not very memorable), so obviously the show effectively elevated that Greek Chorus + Spokesperson. Regardless, they had a purpose for Tyrion’s contribution to the story, and why not get the best available talent for the roles even if they are small ones?
tyjon,
That might be serendipitous. In many ways, it will make Daeny look more “important” if there are multiple red priestesses clamoring for her. Of course, there is a really good chance that lot of viewers will just assume that this is the same character as the one they saw last year: after all, it will have been 12 or so months since last they saw the scene, and although I expect that it is an easily jogged memory, I also know the limits of how exact human memories are: i.e., not very!
Wimsey,
Guess it depends on how much you think D&D had in place before they started. Quaithe stood out as she had a unique look and insight that none of the other characters had. A good intro to the Red Priests. There was the scene at the Garden Party where she warns Jorah and another with Jorah where she gives him a hint at where the dragons are (whilst painting protective tattoos on some chap). She certainly seems to be looking out for Dany both in the show and book so have the Red Priests been backing her since the dragons were born? Their power is linked to their existance as it has been claimed before. Quaithe and Moqorro appear to have had the most vivid visions so far. Mel’s appear to be a little less clear and Thoros appears to have been gifted with resurrection powers more than vision.
I beg to differ that they used all the characters much better in the first couple of seasons. Ros, Roderik, Jory, Yoren, etc all felt like they were on their own journeys and more alive than the smaller roles later on. Although the show was a lot more compact then which allowed for it more.
Bareeq,
I think that’s a terrific line of reasoning and neatly explains Varys’ and Illirio’s motivations in the books. It also finally unites the Targeryen and Blackfyre lines after years of of acrimony. In the show they’ve presumably simplified the plot and cut YG. (Unless they actually haven’t cut YG at all, just changed his location, and it turns out that “Tristane” is YG after all and we get a modified “show” version of the Fire and Blood speech with Doran revealing this to the audience)…LOL.
As for “show” Varys…I expect for it to be ultimately revealed that he never intended to make Viserys King and that he always intended to back Dany (unless YG is still secretly in the show hiding in plain sight…)
I know how you like to say people won’t remember this or that because “x” amount of time has passed, but I think you’re stretching it a bit to state you think people will think the Red Priestess Rila Fukashima played and this new Red Priestess are the same, even without their memory being jogged.
TheTouchOfFrost,
I’ve never thought of Quaithe as part of the Red Priests/Priestesses. If I remember correctly, she is never referred to as connected to R’hllor, only referred to as a Shadowbinder from Asshai. Maybe I’m forgetting something, though.
The fact that they posting under their own screen name is all the qualifier I need to know it’s their opinion, so an “I think” is unnecessary. If someone needs a disclaimer to understand that the opinion expressed by a poster, which may be “fact” in their own interpretation of the source material, that issue is on them and not the OP. As for an “air of superiority”, how is doing everything to discredit someone’s opinion any different? We are all here because we enjoy the show and enjoy the source material. Of course, millage may vary but the back and forth because someones opinion may not be popular or deemed a “troll”/book purist or doesn’t mirror one’s own, completely defeats the purpose of partaking in all the debate and speculation and criticism and excitement that the board is here for. If you don’t like someone’s opinion, ignore it. If you want healthy debate, engage. But for shit’s sake, quit acting like it’s one-sided and someone needs to be “called out” because their “facts” in someway undermine your own opinions. That isn’t saving the boards from trolls. It’s being a bully.
Sean C.,
interesting…
Well done to all the folks who called Melanie Liburd playing Kinvara. She looks great in those shots (they’re definitely channeling Mel a lot with her hairstyle and outfit).
It also looks like Varys might indeed be leaving to pay a visit to
Looking forward to seeing that scene if that’s really the case!
Also, get off of Sean C.’s back. He’s not even close to being a “book purist”, and even if I don’t agree with everything he says (do any of us agree 100% of the time?), his posts are still always well written and insightful.
Robb Snow,
The witch hunt some people seem to have for so called “purists” is getting old. So long as someone is respectful and offers thoughtful critique, I don’t see what the issue is. Frankly, I agree with most of what I’ve read from Sean C in this thread.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
I don’t care for the purist debate, but this – this could not be more wrong (objectively, or at least socially-normatively so). Please read on assertiveness and I-statements. It is generally assumed among social scientists that it is fair to assume that a person who does not make use of I-think statements is perceived as aggressive… and, in fact, *is*, aggressive in their style of communication.
Employing I-think statements is just… it’s just courtesy towards others, telling them that you do not mean to usurp the truth. There is a reason why it’s advocated for conflict resolution! So, no, with the full weight of actual research: It’s on the person making a statement not to appear aggressive and usurpatory to others, and they can do it in just 8 characters (including a comma). If someone can’t be bothered to include *8 characters* for my sake, then I’m fully in my right to assume that they mean to be aggressive, and don’t really care for my opinion or the discussion at all.
Just a little primer on communication science. ?
So how often, in the context of an online forum, does the person need to do this in order to be playing by the rules? Once per sentence, per paragraph, per post, per string? Seems to me that an online forum is like an ongoing group discussion, in which each speaker is not expected to say “I think” every time they open their mouth (or hit the keyboard). At some point, surely it’s taken as a given that they’re just expressing their opinion, no?
I do get put off when people say things like “Everybody knows that…” or “Anybody with any intelligence would figure out that…” or (my particular pet peeve) “End of story.” Those would definitely (in my opinion) qualify as “usurping” and aggressive. But if I come to an online discussion, I would proceed from the presumption that each person is presenting his or her personal view or interpretation of the facts, possibly bolstered by quotes or citations of data but in no way entitled to THE definitive opinion on whatever it is that’s being discussed (unless they’re the mods, of course).
Speaking for myself, I’m not at all bothered if people fail to interject “I think” a lot. In fact, to my ears, people who say “I” too often tend to come off as a little full of themselves. This is a fandom discussion group, not mediation or group therapy or marriage counseling, and I don’t see why we need to walk on quite those particular eggshells as long as we’re civil and respectful rather than snarky, sarcastic or belittling of one another. (That’s just what I think, of course.)
Firannion,
Read your own post! You start with ‘seems to me’, move on to ‘surely’ with a question mark, then to a lot of I-statements (*I* do get put off, *I* would), and so on. It’s really exemplary communication. ? I would quote the rest, except I was phoneposting and clicked something and posted too early and am just now editing.
Before making claims that look authoritative, though, definitely!
e2: ok. In general, these statements are advocated not just for counseling, but in any heated and/or multicultural setting, where there can be issues with the communication channel. And you can’t deny that fandom discussions can get heated, and those other things apply, too, can you?
Yaga,
I was deliberately overcompensating. : /
I mean, saying, “In my view, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition” ruins the punchline.
Firannion,
And yet, even now, you used an I-statement. Instead of blaming me, or… whatever. ?
Firannion,
Yeah, but that’s not an opinion. That’s a joke. Dependent, too, on intersubjectivity and common cultural context, but a joke. Its purpose is not to express a held opinion, but to lighten the mood.
Anyhow. Communication is fascinating to me, but I’ll stop invading the thread now.
http://i.imgur.com/EEqqwlP.jpg
(In my opinion, of course….)
They should just have a meteor hit Mereen so we can move on ….
Yaga already covered the “I” statement thing brilliantly. If you can’t see why it’s a problem, then it seems to me that you’re part of the problem.
I think it’s hilarious that challenging others’ erroneous opinions when confidently stated as facts is being equated by posters with bullying. If one’s sensibilities are so achingly delicate that they cringe in terror at the mere thought of “bullying,” which appears to mean in this context others pointing out that their brazen, confident, supremely authoritative pronouncements are in fact wrong…then I think that maybe they should qualify their statements ahead of time to avoid looking like a jackass down the road. If they’re not 100% sure of something or if they’re caught out in a mistake or an inaccuracy, maybe they should acknowledge that humbly and gracefully like an adult instead of doubling down? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and all that.
I’m irresistibly reminded of a poster on these very boards early in the spring of 2015 who snarled at and railed against those posters who speculated that Sansa would marry Ramsay: they were stupid, they were dumb, they were WRONG, this was GARBAGE, this was BULLSHIT, this theory was the most RIDICULOUS THING EVER…until exactly that happened in Season 5. Mercifully, that poster fell silent, although no apology ever issued. It should have served as a lesson to the other posters to be careful about spouting off their opinions as fact, but the lesson doesn’t appear to have taken…yet.
No!
And I want Tyrion making moves amidst all that chaos. Then Dany can make her grand return with her Dothraki army and head for Westeros.
Firannion,
Only when he said that those who liked Sansa’s story in S5 simply can’t understand the complexity of her book plot.
basecally he implied, that I either like stories with ”plot-holes”(alltough neither him or you know the meaning of this word), or I am incapable of understading complexity.
I did not say his opinions are wrong, and I apologies if that’s how it apeared, I argued that there are other ways of seeing this story, beside his.
This is what I’m against, presenting your opinions as fact, and saying that if people don’t agre with you, they are not ”smart” enough to understand them.
He implied? Or you inferred? Maybe you need to stop taking criticisms of the show so personally.
Firannion,
What other message can you take from those statements?
I don’t have those statements in front of me verbatim. All I have is your interpretation of what he said, so I can’t really comment.
Wimsey,
Kay,
The scene was designed to be memorable. It felt out-of-place, in a way, and that was deliberate; there is a flow to the scene, until the flow completely stops for Tyrion to witness this Priestess’ speech —not unlike what happens in the books with Benerro, actually. The music changes, Tyrion actually sits instead of passing by, and then there’s that weird look. That’s why people remember that scene. And that’s the scene that makes me sure we’ll go back to Volantis at some point, to deal with R’hllor and the slaves.
Do you have to come to every post to complain about book purists? You are as annoying as them!
I have to agree that Varys is the “good” master of puppets, and Littlefinger the “bad” one in the show, whereas in the books both are pretty grey….why can’t you address his argument instead of insulting Sean C?
The show is not perfect, we should be able to to discuss it without this stupid wars between “book purists” and the “show-jihadists”…
George,
I don’t necessarily think Trystane will take YG’s place, but I do believe Dorne will take the place of the Golden Company and… well, Dorne.
Pau,
There is no ”war” betwean book-readers and show-watchers.
It is completly a debate among book-readers. That started in 2005, when AFFC was realesed.
That is why I can’t wait for the show to start again, all the show-only watchers will come back. Debates among book-readers are just as bad as they where back then.
Huh. Sibel Kekilli, aka Shae, is in Peñíscola. Will Tyrion hallucinate of her, or what? Maybe the actress is just visiting.
Here’s another picture, by DragonsandDirewolves. She’s on set!
So she’s probably filming. Hm… A hallucination or a dream, I guess…?
My random guess: Tyrion hallucinates that one of the hungry citizens is Shae (this is what they are filming; Portal Fosc as a Meereneese street full of hungry citizens), and this leads him to make some sort of big decision.
Lady Shaeheart!!
Perhaps the red priestess glamours herself to resemble Shae because she has some use for a Tyrion shadow baby?
Luka Nieto,
A dream pethaps! This is great news!
Firannion,
I just knew it would happen, Tyrion gets some Red woman lovin, shadow imps are coming.
Maybe that was someone from Westeros they said would be there? Even though she’s never been a major character like they said. If she’s on set she should probably be filming then, not just visiting them. I guessed that same thing, Tyrion is probably hallucinating…
Kargaryen,
Yeah, she is the person from Westeros most likely.
And I also suspect some form of hallucination or a dream.
GRRM has said that we will find “where whores go.” If Tysha appears again, maybe Shae does too in the same circumstances, whether it’s a hallucination or whatever. I don’t see why not; after all, Shae had already supplanted Tysha in the show in the dramatic sense (which was totally the way to go, something certain book readers don’t understand —In a visual medium with no narration, it just makes more sense for Tyrion to be hung up on someone we have actually met. Thank God those fans are not in charge of the adaptation!).
People tend to lump memories together. The current Red Priestess probably will job people’s memories to the one they saw last year. If so, then what often happens is that people then superimpose the current image onto the memory.
i’d be scared for shadow baby daddy tyrion- look what happened to stannis 🙁
dinklage & maisie are the 2 major actors im really hoping make to the end
please no tyrion shadow babies
i would LOVE to find out where whores go, however 😉
why would he be hallucinating? did someone give him poisoned hors d’oeurves?
Can a red priestess glamour into a dead person she has never seen before? There is no precedent for something like that at least.
Luka Nieto</
She's not in costume. Probably just visiting.
jentario,
Right when they are filming there?
jentario,
Visiting directly on set, while filming is going on? When I saw the first picture, I assumed she was just visiting, but now that we have a picture in which she is on set… I doubt it.
Book readers have been arguing vehemently amongst themselves since the 1990’s. A lot of it is/was the “mysteries”: Who is Jon’s mother? Who is Arstan? Is Varys the man in the dungeons? But a lot of it was the very nature of the story: is Robb the true “hero” of the story? Are dragons fundamentally good/evil or neither? Are the Others fundamentally evil? And there no doubt were others that I’ve long since forgotten! However, the “nature” of the story keeps re-raising it’s ugly head: a lot of people want to see “good” and “bad” in the characters, and I have always been in the crowd that thinks that this is fundamentally the wrong way to look at GRRM’s characters.
Crows introduced a completely different set of arguments. After all, some of the above were answered in the prior book (no, Arstan was not Aerys!). The bigger set of complaints stemmed from the fact that none of the other outstanding questions even were touched and a lot of dislike of the new protagonists. However, people did argue about who the Little Brother was and a couple of other things. As I was one of the ones who basically dropped out of the fandom shortly thereafter (yeah, I disliked Crows that much), I don’t know how people occupied their time after debating the “merits” of Dorne/Iron Island got stale and the endless wait for Dragons.
But, again, this is typical of fandoms. Tolkien fans still argue about what color Legolas’ hair was (never stated in the books, and oh-so-important) or whether balrogs had wings (equally important!). Harry Potter fans were most famous for arguing about whether Hermione was in love with Harry or Ron, but they also argued vehemently about whether Harry’s scar was Voldemort’s soul (or a piece thereof), whether Snape was “evil” or in love with Harry’s mother, whether every person who had died was really dead, etc.
Heck, back in the late 1970’s, we argued about whether Leia would wind up with Luke or Han! I thought that she should end up with Chewbacca: but even as a teenager I had a slightly off-beat sense-of-humor! Of course, we didn’t do it via Internet back then, so there might have been a lot of crazy ideas that I never heard. (I never heard anyone speculate that Darth was Anakin, for example: but that does not mean that the idea would not have been put on the Internet had it existed in 1978.)
Bareeq,
Nowhere in the books do we read that Illyrio is
Thus, Illyrio’s personal motives are almost certainly quite different. (I suspect that they are not very important to the story because Illyrio is a very minor [?quaternary: is there such a thing?] character, and they have not seen fit to bring him back to the show.)
Can you imagine if social media existed back then? The Empire Strikes Back‘s big plot twist about Luke’s parentage may have been spoiled – not to mention all those Twitter meltdowns about that and the near-incest thing with Leia. Oh, and the Ewoks. 😉 On second thought, it might have been entertaining to read immediate reactions. 🙂
That would be so creepy! I didn’t expect the show to do that, would be interesting if the sighting means Sibel is filming something. I hope it’s true.
Luka Nieto,
Where would she visit but on set? Honestly?
There’s no way she’s filming with that outfit, in that hairdo, unless it’s meant to be a funny cameo in the background.
jentario,
Huh… on a restaurant (where the cast and crew are often found together), on the hotel… literally anywhere except for the set while they’re filming?
Actors, especially actresses, often go to the locations without their costumes. For example, Nathalie Emmanuel was spotted arriving at the set without her costume a few days ago, for Missandei’s scene with Tyrion in the gardens.
Indeed! It is interesting to ponder what would have happened. I doubt that something like “I am your father” would have easily leaked: remember, all of that stuff was shot in studios, and shows have shown a pretty good ability to keep studio-only material under wraps. Still, the coverage intensity would have been staggering! And news of Sir Alec Guiness visiting the studio would have been harder to keep under wraps.
And, yeah: Ewoks would have blown the 5 cathode tubes running the 1980’s Internet! It actually did exist, but only within campuses and institutions with high-end research: for example, I was able to access university mainframes to run computer programs via modem by 1983; however, even by the late 1980’s, anything like the modern Internet typically was available only within campuses. It’s hard to remember that world, but it is the one in which I did my undergraduate and Masters work!
Wimsey,
You’re right, the studio scenes wouldn’t have been leaked. But, I think there would definitely be Twitter/Instagram on location sightings, like the crew being in Norway to film Hoth scenes for Empire, for example. Maybe castings like Billy Dee Williams as Lando would have been discovered sooner. Stuff like that.
I do wonder if anyone back then suspected Darth was Luke’s father – if that theory had been posted on social media before Empire it’d probably be dismissed as silly and the posters as delusional conspiracy theorists. 🙂
As for the Internet, I was an undergrad in the 1990s, when the Internet began taking the form it is now. Obviously the schools had the best stuff, but things were so limited and primitive – I mean dial-up! – yet I thought it so great at the time. 🙂
Damn! Peter’s one lucky man, surrounded by Nathalie, Melanie and Sibel.
Luka Nieto,
Luka, jentario’s right. You’re getting carried away here. It is not that strange that former actors would get invited to visit the set.
jentario,
Dutch Maester,
There’s also this, which makes it even more likely that she’s filming there.
I’m not saying it’s 100% confirmed or anything, but there’s evidence pointing to the idea that Sibel is not just paying a visit. I’m not getting carried away.
Kinvara? What about Tehmina Sunny?
Luka Nieto,
You are. A drunk dream? Tysha? That’s never happening.
Naturally if she’s invited they wouldn’t let her stay in some crappy hotel around the block. I’m not saying it is not possible, but none of this is proof.
He doesn’t seem particularly hunted by Shae’s ghost. Probably because she was false and betrayed him, and he killed her in self defense.
Tyrion may be angry at being deceived and sad at being unloved, but I don’t see much room for guilt-feelings there.
Dutch Maester,
Evidence is not proof. I did not say there’s proof.
What if this Kinvara High Priestess shows off R’hllor’s potential by actually using some type of fire sacrifice to bring Shae back from the Shadowlands. Tyrion is more a skeptic than Stannis and it could take something like this to convince him to form an alliance with the Red Priestess order.
She could be visiting them yeah but I still find it weird since they could just meet anywhere else. Maybe she’s indeed visiting them on set just to troll us fans.
Luka Nieto,
Call it what you will. There’s no evidence either 😛
Hey, it beat smoke signals and carrier pigeons!
Luka is not saying that it is proof: he is saying that it is evidence. Look at it this way: the probability of her being on set if she is doing scenes for the show is extremely high (as in 1.0) whereas the probability of her being on set if she is not is very low (not 0.0, but much closer to 0.0 than to 1.0). So, the suggestion that she is doing something for the show is much more likely that is the suggestion that she is not doing something for the show.
Now, much more likely ≠ definitely: but that is the difference between evidence and proof.
Thank you.
Wimsey,
I understand just fine. I just don’t see any reason to see it as evidence because this can very clearly be described as a set visit. But whatever.
What makes something “evidence” is if it is predicted by the idea. Now, both “acting” and “visiting” predict this, so at that point we can say that either idea is just as likely (= predicts the data just as well). However, the key is the “very clearly be described” part: we now are getting into the concept of prior probabilities. That is, how often does this happen? What that comes down to is, what proportion of the people affiliated with the show seen on set are there for filming vs. visiting? That’s very lopsided in favor of being there for filming: do we even have examples of alumnists being spotted visiting the sets?
None of this says that it’s impossible that she is just visiting. However, it does say that it is a much less probable explanation: alumnists just visiting the sets seems to happen at a very low frequency. So, the idea that she is not in it is both unlikely (it does not predict what we have seen well) and improbable (the circumstances that would predict it do not seem to happen often).
So, what this is saying is that although we cannot declare either idea “true” or “false” just yet, the evidence supports one idea much more strongly than the other.
And, yeah: we are all like this! 😀
It’s a good thing they put Tyrion in Mereen because I am pretty much done with that whole storyline. At least with him there it lightens things up a bit. Almost 6 seasons and Dany’s barely moved while so many other things have happened in Westeros. I used to care if she made it to Westeros. Now, after so long with barely anything substantial happening, I’m like, meh whatever. lol
I’m reading the books so I hope she has a much more interesting plot throughout than she has had in the series.
I don’t understand this “Tyrion hallucinating” talk. Is he eating magic mushrooms? I can see dreaming or even flashback – but why hallucinating all of a sudden?
Also many fine people have given many fine responses to the “I am more right than you” sort of posting. Or the “no need to say or absolutely should say In my opinion”. To me, they are right. There is never a need to respond to someone simply because you disagree and call them some sort of disparaging name. Book wanker, show apologist, D & D hater, GRRM hater or simply hater or troll.
Never a need. 1. Other people can figure out and make their own judgment call on what they read and how they perceive it. 2. Neither you or I are the owners or moderators here, it isn’t our place to “correct others” on how they post. One of the things that improves a thread is the healthy debate, regardless of what side you come down on. The old “well they did it first” doesn’t hold water with most adults, if one doesn’t care for a position another has, then just ignore it. I guess that is harder to do than to type.
I love this play pen and really want to see everyone playing well in it. As Wimsey said and I agree, I have seen this exact thing over Tolkien/LotR, Rowling/Potter and in fact, just about any adaptation from book to screen. This could be different, it could start here, right? *looks hopefully around the play pen* 🙂 😉 🙂
JCDavis,
Very well stated, JCDavis. I don’t see why we can’t play nicely, without resorting reflexively to insults, either.
As for Tyrion hallucinating, I think that premise is based on the famine subplot that is apparently headed for Meereen. People with low blood sugar get a little weird sometimes.
I just saw the new Monty Python documentary, which includes the clip in which physicist Brian Cox gets run over by Stephen Hawking’s wheelchair as he’s expounding on what’s technically inaccurate about the Pythons’ “Galaxy Song.” As Hawking dryly tells Cox as he’s zipping away, “I think you’re being pedantic.”
; )
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
It’s not been stated explicitly but her visions are very Red Priestesque. Plus she appears to have a great deal of reverence for fire and dragons. I have the impression that she worships R’hllor ( as seems to be popular in Asshai) but perhaps isn’t an indoctrinated priestess. I have my suspicions that she may be an agent working for the Church of R’hllor though as she was very quick to search Dany out after the dragon’s were born. Hopefully we will find out in the books but I fear the show is done with her.
Firannion,
If the Knights Who Say Ni peg up then I’ll lose it!
Some behaviors I’ve observed here are name calling, triangulating with others to ignore a poster, and character disparagement. These are bullying behaviors. This has been directed at Sean C., and others on occasion. Sean C. might not use “I” statements, but s/he has never engaged in these things.
Speaking of aggressive communication; I have seen posters on several occasions respond with “No.” only to another’s post, and someone in this post accuse people who don’t like the behaviors I mention of being “thin skinned”. IMO, this is aggressive communication, and not what I would use in my day to day with co-workers or family. When I read these types of things, I think “well, we’re not all expert at non-aggressive communication”, and I don’t really mind.
Where I see those behaviors I list, however, my reaction has very little to do with my supposed “thin skin”. I get angry seeing someone being treated with outright hostility and being ganged up on. I start to loose respect for the posters engaging in that behavior, and I stop taking anything they say seriously, about Sean C. or otherwise.
Everyone has a choice. The name-calling, triangulating, and attacking someone’s character can continue, of course. But I, and others, are pointing out that we don’t like it, and giving people fair chance to dialogue and debate in a way they are listened to and taken seriously.
JCDavis,
*paddles up in canoe, offers seat*
That would be lovely.
Another hypothesis floating around (as you may already know) is that Quaithe may be an agent for Marwyn the Mage. I personally like it because I’m rooting for Marwyn and his behind-the-scenes string-pulling to move to the forefront in WoW, but my hopes are not very high that he will become a factor in the show.
The primary (perhaps only) evidence for her connection to him is that, so far as we know per book canon, Marwyn is the only contemporary maester who knows how to make dragonglass candles work. And the candles seem to fans of the theory to be the most persuasive explanation for how Quaithe’s disembodied image can appear to Dany and give her cryptic advice.
Tinfoil maybe, but I find it intriguing food for thought.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Comment timed out, I didn’t copy it, and when I went back a screen to retrieve it, it was gone. Fuck.
I said something along the lines of…I’ve never gotten the impression Quaithe is a “R’hllor Girl.” Part of that may be because I find her so incredibly mysterious, and if she’s associated with the Red Priestesses, it removes much of her mystery for me. Asshai is such a huge question mark, and Quaithe is the same, at least in my mind. I can, however, see the arguments for her being a R’hllor Girl.
*jumps in managing not to overturn said canoe* Is it me or is our boat getting smaller. 😉 PULL PULL PULL!!
P.S. to first post. There is nothing wrong with having a bit of fun on thread. I wrote “a bit”, not that every thread should become a clown village.
Is Varys
Firannion,
There’s a lot of question marks around both characters. I’m not sure what their motivation would be though or who’s “side” they’re on. Would be nuts if Euron turned out to be a good guy and he’d been working with them to travel the world and learn how to combat the WW. It says he’s dabbled in Blood Magic and sailed to Old Valyria. Quaithe warned of many people coming after her but not Euron. She did refer to a Black Flame which could be Moqorro who in turn pointed out Euron as the person seeking her the most when he described his vision to Tyrion. Could be that she,Euron and Marwyn are working againt the Red Priests? I still think it would be a nice Easter egg if the guy she was tattooing for protection in that scene in the second series when she’s talking to Jorah turned out to be Euron!
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
She has certianly studied some of the same arts that they have if she sees her visions through the flames. Her ( and Moqorro’s out of interest) visions seems more accurate and she appears to be much more adept at Shadowbinding that Melisandre is. Whether this is down to ability or proximity to dragons is unclear.
I still think the warlocks and the House of the Undying could still play a role so perhaps she’s out to thwart them. Who know. I fear thiese and more things will never get fully explored in any medium.
I don’t know how likely that is, but I l-o-v-e that idea!!!
Mr Hoss,
Seems so.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Well, he does claim he’s travelled to Asshai and sailed the Smoking Sea and walked the smoking ruins of Valyria. Dude’s lived!
Probably: but that’s a compliment in our world!
Ditto that for me. Of course, Quaithe is a big mystery figure: but nothing about her has suggested Red Church.
I dimly recall that it was once a popular idea that Quaithe is Ashara Dayne. I do not recall there being any support for that idea at all, but you know how some fans are! (After all, they are both females, right? How much more evidence do you need than that?!?!?)
The worst Quaithe theory I’ve yet encountered posits her being a time-traveling future Dany, coming back to warn her younger self of avoidable dangers. That’s why she needs to wear a mask, allegedly. That one doesn’t even pass the Occam’s Blunt Instrument test. (Need I add, ‘in my opinion’?)
Firannion,
Not unless you feel the need to caveat the statements “the cloudless sky is sky blue” or “the circle is round” with “in my opinion.”
Firannion,
Along these lines, I seem to recall that a popular conjecture among Harry Potter fans was that Dumbledore was a time-travelled Ron Weasley. People seem to love this sort of idea: but when is it ever the answer in the end?
(Someday, someone should do an analysis on the similarities in “out-there” ideas that spring up in parallel among fandoms.)
I don’t remember that one, though I did spend quite a bit of time hanging about in that fandom (whence I actually remember your handle and avatar – from Chamber of Secrets, perhaps?) and read plenty of off-the-wall speculations.
My own pet Potterverse tinfoil theory, sadly unfulfilled, was that Neville’s Mimbulus mimbletonia plant was important, and would turn out to be the key ingredient in a potion that he would accidentally invent that would reverse the tragic effects of the Cruciatus curse on his parents’ minds.
Firannion,
Lol…. I never read that one! I do remember people being convinced that Neville’s toad was Umbridge, although I have no idea what it was supposed to add to anything.
I do recall thinking that Neville’s bad memory might turn out to be from an improperly done memory spell, and that maybe he had seen something of importance when he was a child. If I remember rightly, then his parents were very high up in the Ministry and they were tortured into insanity because Voldemort’s underlings thought that they knew something about where Voldemort was or how to restore him or something like that. Anyway, the pieces seemed to be right next to each other, but Rowling never did anything with them. I suppose that we will get stuff like that from Martin, too: when you write that much, then you will accidentally create some flase leads without trying to deceive the readers.
That’s because I made it up myself – wholly out of wishful thinking, unencumbered by any shred of evidence – and was unable to drum up much support for it. Just a way to pass the time between publication dates.
Firannion,
Well, it wasn’t the worst idea in the world! I had thought that the Longbottoms knew something that would point to the location of a Horcrux. After all, Bellatrix herself had tortured them for information, which was a hint that they knew something (even if they themselves did not appreciate even a fraction of the importance). Some of Neville’s issues were reminiscent of other people who had suffered memory alterations. So, somewhere in there, I figured that Neville (or his parents, although I didn’t think of that possibility) would have something that would seem meaningless, but then when put together with something else would scream “Horcrux Hiding Place!”
(I confess that the one thing that disappointed me about the last book was the Horcrux hiding places: they really did not fit in as well with Harry’s lessons from the penultimate book as well as they could have done. However, the story was aces, so I guess that I can forgive the slightly underwhelming plot.)
I expect that there will also be some intentional leads from Martin that go nowhere. Martin is the kind of author who loves the ambiguities of history, imperfection of human knowledge, unreliable narration, loose ends that don’t quite get tied up, or mysteries that never get a satisfying answer. I don’t think his endgame is going to be full of these unresolved bits and pieces, but I do believe there will be just enough of them to convey a sense of living history where not everything is conveniently explained or, since Martin is a great fan of weird and exotic, explainable. The current events, however epic and grand they may be, are still a small weave of the tapestry that is Planetos. As always, the world and its stories go on.
Mr Fixit,
Rowling always insisted that she never deliberately tried to mislead readers with her comments. I suspect that the same is true for GRRM. After all, nothing that he has said about Swords, Crows or Dragons prior to release was a lie. Some statements were taken badly out-of-context: but that always happens. However, in a lot of ways, the fans need to get over themselves: storytellers want to do all of this stuff through storytelling, not through the media!
(The sole exception might be Steve Moffat: but because Doctor Who got burned badly by nosy fans inducing leaks, he has gotten paranoid; also, as he is a fanboy himself, he is too apt to think like a fan rather than like a general audience member where some things are concerned.)
Wimsey,
I don’t think Martin means to mislead anyone through the media. I do think that he deliberately puts certain stuff in his books, hints and clues, bits of lore and worldbuilding and such that he fully intends not to follow up on, in order to achieve a sense of a living and breathing world that is richer and vaster than what is contained with the pages. In a way, I believe Martin indirectly encourages all the crazy theorycrafting his fans obsess over.
Can it be construed as misleading the audience? Only in the best possible sense! We never get the answers to all the questions in our real lives. Why should fiction be any different? I fully expect that many of the more “puritanical” fans — the ones that eagerly bash the show, by the way — will be put off by certain developments in the Martin’s endgame. Not enough resolution, or not the kind they were expecting.
Mr Fixit,
I tend to view it as more similar to, say, a guitarist who cannot help but to add one more “lick” to a guitar solo that really does not need it. After all, he/she is a guitarist: of course they want to play more. By the same token, writers will always write more if you let them. The history of literature is replete with battles between editors and authors over such things. After all, an author thinks of some detail, so naturally he/she wants to include it. The editor’s job is to keep the eye on the prize: the story, the primary plot, etc., And although authors innately want to share every drop of their imagination with the public, it’s the editors’ jobs to note that extraneous details will distract readers (or viewers when you have scripts) from the plot and story.
(I do not think that GRRM’s books are edited in this manner, which is to the delight of the “world-building fans” but probably to the detriment of the series as literature.)
In my profession, we get people who want to include every last datum about a system regardless of whether it’s germane to the hypotheses being tested in a paper. (Cut!) And, of course, the people who use three or four different approaches to get at the same problem and want to publish all of them in detail even when they all say the same thing because, well, damn it: they took the time to do them! (Cut! And move it to online supplemental material!) So, this really is a “human” thing: when we are clever and creative, we want the world to see just how damn clever and creative we are!
Wimsey,
Sure, I get what you say, and I agree. I do want to add that in art a certain level of “needless detail” may be worth it, if only to give the audience a sense of depth and richness, of buried treasures and hidden secrets lurking just beyond the written word. The trick, of course, is not to overpower the narrative, lest it devolve into a barely coherent mess. Which, I suppose, is how many would choose to describe the last two books.
Well said. And the more books I read, the more I grow to appreciate those untidily lifelike plot constructs. I could never work up much enthusiasm for Dickens, for example, largely because his endings in which every loose end gets tied up in a neat little bow just made me roll my eyes.
That’s also partly why I keep recommending Guy Gavriel Kay’s brilliant historical fantasies to ASoIaF fans who are looking for something else to read while waiting for the next volume to come out. Like GRRM, Kay also likes to keep the reader a little off balance most of the time. I’m thinking of one of his novels in particular where he lays the groundwork for one of those grand Shakespearean recognition-scene endings in which all the sundered, disguised and/or believed dead relatives and comrades are reunited – and then has them all miss each other by minutes or fail to recognize one another. It’s a bit rattling to the reader, but a real tour de force the way he carries it off.
Firannion,
I loved Kay! Not to say I don’t anymore, but it’s been at least 15 years, probably 20 for Tigana. I’ve read everything of his historical fantasy up to and including the Sarantium duology. Good times!
I can’t quite place the events you describe, though. Either I forgot — possible given how much time has passed — or it’s in one of the more recent books.
I should really check out what I missed in the meantime.
Mr Fixit,
It’s the big climax of Tigana, at the end of the mage battle, that I had in mind. Brother/sister, father/son all fail to connect.
Tigana and The Lions of Al-Rassan are my favorites. I think the latter in particular would make a terrific movie or mini-series.
Of Kay’s recent books, I found the Viking one not very memorable, but liked the two set in almost-medieval-China more than I expected to, given that it’s not a historical/cultural milieu that usually interests me all that much. They have a very different storytelling tone from his earlier works: poetic in what feels like an authentically Asian way.
Ysabel, his YA novel set in Provence, is not so dark as his usual. But it has some fun cameos from a couple of the college kids from the Fionavar Tapestry, now middle-aged.
Well, I guess I should read Tigana once more. Interestingly enough, I remember the map pretty well (Lower Corte for the win!), but the plot… almost nothing. All I know is that I really loved that book. And you’re right: Tigana and The Lions of Al-Rassan were my favourites too. Then comes The Sarantine Mosaic. I recall not being overly impressed by A Song for Arbonne… something about a weak and contrived ending… but it was all so long ago!
What happened to Melanie Liburd’s character? We’ve already seen a red priestess named Kinvara that was not her. Was she replaced, or is she yet another red priestess that is still due to appear?