Liam Cunningham defends Game of Thrones ending; and Maisie Williams tries to answer questions as she eats spicy wings

Davos Seaworth, Winterfell, Season 8

We’ve got a few more post-Game of Thrones Season 8 interviews for you today, and I promise two of them are more serious than the title may suggest. First of all: yes, Maisie Williams (Arya Stark) recently appeared in the popular be-interviewed-while-eating-increasingly-spicier-chicken-wings “Hot Ones” Youtube channel, and it was hilarious if not informative; but also, courtesy of Spanish fansite Los Siete Reinos, we’ve got costume designer Michele Clapton speaking about her favorite costume (and character!), as well as cast members Isaac Hempstead Wright (Bran Stark) and Liam Cunningham (Davos Seaworth) discussing and defending the ending of the show.

Aside of providing us with a few good laughs at poor Maisie’s expense, her appearance on Hot Ones also serves as an interview of sorts, though one in which the interviewee grows increasingly inarticulate. You may have heard versions of these questions and answers a hundred times (“Is it true you learned to fight left-handed because Arya’s left-handed in the books?”), but the video is worth it for the laughs anyway:

Now, onto today’s meatier –but not spicier– interviews. Our friends at Los Siete Reinos got the opportunity to chat with costume designer Michele Clapton as well as Isaac Hempstead Wright and Liam Cunningham at a recent Game of Thrones event in Madrid, Spain (which was very much like the touring exhibition we reviewed a few years ago.)

Of particular interest in the interview with Clapton is what she considers her favorite costume of season eight: Sansa’s coronation dress as Queen in the North. As it happens, Sansa’s the character she “loves the most”, and as well as designing her final dress she got the opportunity (as you might have heard before) to appear in the scene in which Sansa’s putting it on; though you may miss her, since we only see her hands.

Clapton says she especially appreciates how that scene was shot, showing the costume up-close and without rushing through it, “because on-set you never see it with such detail; you see things but you can’t tell it was created with such care.”

Sansa Stark 806 Season 8 Queen in the North

Then, again speaking to L7R, Liam Cunningham makes what I believe to be a great point regarding the ending of Game of Thrones, often criticized as “rushed,” about the realities of production, which has time constraints that writing a novel simply does not:

“The books are a beautiful, beautiful thing, but if we’d ‘just done the books,’ you’re never going to match what’s in people’s heads. And [showrunners] David and Dan gave 15 years of their lives, and they love the books… but we have to make a television show that opens it up to a much bigger audience. [George RR. Martin] writes beautifully. To compare the two is ridiculous; one is a visual medium, the other one’s literary.”

“As regard to the end, there’s nothing we could’ve done to make everybody happy… I think we had the most happy ending that we could possibly have. The Starks are in good shape. The Lannisters are gone. Daenerys –the Targaryens– finished. The Small Council at the end is mostly good people; it’s Brienne, Samwell Tarly, Davos, Bran, Tyrion. It’s a pretty happy ending for something that’d had genocides up to that point.”

Bran Stark King Red Keep King's Landing Season 8 806 Iron Throne Podrick Brienne Bronn Tyrion

“I think it was a really good ending. We got people saying ‘it was too short!’. It was originally going to be 70 hours, and [David and Dan] added three more huge episodes, which is six months more of work than what they were contracted by HBO. So they went the extra mile. But they didn’t want to drag it out. I know people say it was rushed. Well, everything’s rushed. Davos had seven sons in the books. Bran’s more magical. There’s Lady Stark returned. There are thousands of things in the books that we couldn’t [have fitted.] It’s impossible. We’d all die of old age. Think about how long it takes to film these days. Six months for ten hours; or in the last season, one year for six episodes. Isaac would be 75 years old if we’d adapted everything. It’d be impossible.”

Now, it’s only natural for an actor to defend their project, and Cunningham has never been anything but a fierce defender of the show, but I believe he makes some great points: young actors age out of their roles, and time is money, not to speak of good old-fashioned physical and mental burnout by producers, writers, cast and crew alike.

The show just couldn’t go on forever, or even for ten seasons like some, including author Martin himself, had suggested in the past. While it’s true HBO offered the showrunners to go on for longer, either the production value wouldn’t be what the explosive final act of this story deserved or we’d get a season every two or three years. And we return to young actors aging and time being money. The math just doesn’t work out.

Perhaps it’s ironic (or is it just funny?) that that’s partly why Martin started writing A Song of Ice and Fire after working on Hollywood for years: he wanted to write something limited only by his imagination, eschewing all realities of production. The show didn’t have that luxury, especially once they ran out of published source material.

357 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Roy,

      And yet people defend it every day from whatever weak criticisms haters like you come up with. And the show won four Best Drama Emmys, so it most certainly did happen.

        Quote  Reply

    2. I like Liam, but you can’t reason with entitled children. GOT fandom is full of stans and shippers and failed theory makers. It’s like trying to have conversation with High Sparrow and FM. No point.

      Majority of GoT fans just don’t want to engage with the story even if they don’t like it or they don’t like how it was done.

      It’s like Star Wars PT haters. You can hate those movies as much as you want but at least try to understand what George Lucas wanted to do. He didn’t make those movies to ruin your childhood.

      Like fanatics they don’t want to see that there could be narrative and thematic reason for WW not to be final enemies or Jon Snow not to be king. They don’t even want to try to understand the story even if they don’t like.

      Arguing with fanatics, especially Dany’s stans is pointless. You can’t have conversation with people that can be offended with creative choices and don’t know how to react to things they don’t like like adults

      Several years from now maybe. Like how talking about Lost now is much easier without hysterical outrage.

      PS For Dany’s stans even 4 more seasons would’t be enough to like her downfall. Only if they wrote her destruction of KL as justified so they can make more excuses for her brutality, like they did since S1

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    3. Costumes that Clapton made for Daenerys, Cersei and Sansa in the last 2-3 seasons were really outstanding. I think Arya’s costumes since she returned to Winterfell were great.

      And the most underrated – Tyrion’s costumes.

      I started watching The Crown and I instantly liked the costumes there. And then I realized that Clapton made them as well

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    4. mau,

      I thought the S7 costumes were a bit lacklustre tbh, apart from Dany’s winter coat of course. S8 costumes were phenomenal. You can track Dany’s change through her costumes, once she gets to Westeros, she starts incorporating Viserys’ shoulder pad business + Targ colours. I knew Dany was having problems when she turned up in Ep 4 in a full red dress, huge alarm bells.

      mau,

      Attack of the Clones though…. I like the other two, but that movie was rough. I think Revenge of the Sith is probably the best of the PT, but people don’t like those movies much at all, even the casual viewers. The reaction to TLJ is baffling though.

        Quote  Reply

    5. “As regard to the end, there’s nothing we could’ve done to make everybody happy… I think we had the most happy ending that we could possibly have.”

      He’s completely right with this point.. But I think it just speaks to the failure in writing in that they give the “most happy ending” and it fails to land for the masses.

      Just look at the highest rated episode of the series, The Winds of Winter… in many ways that episode is similar to The Iron Throne, except that it genuinely felt like proper pay off to “Act 2”. The Iron Throne doesn’t really feel like that for “Act 3”. It has moments such as the Stark montage at the end that fail to reach the heights that it should (that the music indicates it should) but it falls relatively flat. Would a lengthier season have solved those problems? Who knows.

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    6. mau,

      ”I think Arya’s costumes since she returned to Winterfell were great.”

      —-
      Cleaned-up Arya with her spiffy new combat suit entering the courtyard in S7e4 will always be a highlight for me.
      (See clip below at 0:17 – 0:46)

        Quote  Reply

    7. Jenny: I knew Dany was having problems when she turned up in Ep 4 in a full red dress, huge alarm bells.

      Meanwhile, I’m thinking: “That’s a super cute silhouette! I love where the waist falls!” XD;;;

        Quote  Reply

    8. It’s been so long, and has been discussed so much, I don’t have the courage to go through it again.
      “Rushed” more or less summarizes that there was barely any story in season 8. While it was beautiful artistically and we can forgive things that happened on poetic license (I didn’t mind at all the Dothraki charging, it was beautiful to see even though it burned my brain, I liked Arya killing the NK etc) the story felt hollow and inconsistent by itself and this has nothing to do with the ending per se, or with how many hours were devoted to season 8. (where “poetic” enter TV or cinematic)
      It appears from the scripts that came out that they meant to follow the by now famous “human heart in conflict with itself” but this ambiguity “does Jon love Daenerys”, “does he not love her”, “is he a good guy”, “is he not a good guy” is not the “human heart in conflict with itself”, it’s just ambiguous. Jon being all “I love this woman and I know she’s a monster” is the conflict, but we never got to see that, did we? They removed that scene where Jon made explicit to Tyrion that he knew Dany would burn the city, where it was clear that he was willingly participating in a massacre of grand scale (for what, what was the reason for it, we never got to know), and then they made him doubt that he had to kill her and of course the smartest of all, Tyrion, was in the end the most gallactically stupid.
      If you want to make a bad guy, make a bad guy. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, what are they, good or bad or just stupid?
      It’s rather scizzofrenic to think about it, and unfortunately it’ll be too long before Martin’s WoW will be out. I hope I’ll be over the trauma of bad story telling by then.

      The actors did a good job despite. But I tend to agree with Roy on this one, it was such a mess that you can’t defend the story per se. We can try to find explanations (even though what’s the point, it’s over and done with), and discuss various aspects of it, we can appreciate that they used The Pieta par excellence (Michelangelo’s) for Dany’s death scene but the story itself is beyond discussion at this point.
      Even in this last example, Mary was holding an innocent in her hands, what was Jon holding? Why the drama?

      PS. Even Cunningham’s apostrophe, the council: change in a country is not secured by good people at ruling positions. Institutions do that. There was absolutely no change, only the faces changed, well, apart from one, Tyrion. So the Lannisters are not gone after all. Oh, I forgot. He’s reformed now; he’s serving community service, after causing all the massacre. Right. Talk about messed up messages…

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    9. Jay Targ: He’s completely right with this point.. But I think it just speaks to the failure in writing in that they give the “most happy ending” and it fails to land for the masses.

      He said that’s the happiest they could have made it, but that’s not the same as saying it was a happy ending. A lot of fans didn’t think so, anyway. To them, a happy ending for Jon would be for him to be recognized as Rhaegar and Lyanna’s legitimate son and declared King of the Seven Kingdoms, not exiled to the Wall where he’ll rarely see his family or friends again. A happy ending for Arya would have been to marry Gendry and become Lady of Storms End, not sailing west alone. Sansa became queen, but she’s alone. Same with Bran. Danerys, Jaime, and Brienne fans certainly didn’t consider it a happy ending. One even called the ending nihilistic. So no, it wasn’t a fault of the writing at all.

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    10. mau,

      I agree with everything you said. I also would like to add that I’m glad Liam mentioned that this was originally going to be a 70 episode story and that D&D gave us three extra episodes. That kind of conflicts with people’s claims they rushed the story to move on to Star Wars.

        Quote  Reply

    11. Young Dragon,

      At the same time though, we know that HBO offered them as many episodes and as much money as they wanted. They said no, they could do it in 6 episodes, a decision I disagree with.

      “HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season,” Benioff said. “We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that. As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends.”

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2019/05/14/it-is-now-clear-having-two-short-game-of-thrones-final-seasons-was-a-mistake/#1dca644f788a

        Quote  Reply

    12. Efi: They removed that scene where Jon made explicit to Tyrion that he knew Dany would burn the city, where it was clear that he was willingly participating in a massacre of grand scale (for what, what was the reason for it, we never got to know), and then they made him doubt that he had to kill her and of course the smartest of all, Tyrion, was in the end the most gallactically stupid.

      I think that was about attacking the Red Keep, not the entire city. The Red Keep was what Dany kept referencing as her Plan A, what Varys was referencing at the end of 804 when he was urging Dany not to attack, what Tyrion and Jon were opting she not attack, and this is why Cersei was filling it with civilians in an attempt to put off Dany — hoping Dany’s mercy would stop her from attacking.

      And there’s also D&D saying that Dany didn’t know she was going to burn down the entire city.

      Plus, Tyrion and Jon also looked visibly relieved when the bells rang and then they were completely shocked from the first when the massacre began. Jon tries to stop his men and Tyrion is walking around in a WTF??? stupor. So I don’t think anybody anticipated (including Dany herself) that she’d just comb through the city street-by-street with fire. And nowhere near the Red Keep. I think they feared she’d attack the Red Keep regardless of Cersei’s fun people-shield but not commit an excessive democide over the whole of the city.

      From the script snippets, I think Jon loves her but by 805, is beginning to fear she’s starting to spiral. From 806, it doesn’t seem like he believes Dany is a monster and has hope for her. He tries to reason out why she did what she did, thinks the war is done, and in the script direction for the final episode while he’s trying to talk her down, it makes mention that he wants to believe in her more than anything but she’s giving him all the wrong answers.

      So I think that’s the ultimate human heart in conflict with itself. Love is why Jon doesn’t want to turn against her and why he keeps hoping against hope she’s not the person Tyrion is saying she is (in 806) — until Dany, herself, shows she’s resolved to destruction.

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    13. Jenny,

      Yes, but people are saying they cut the story short in order to move on, and that’s clearly not the case. They had a story to tell and knew the relative amount of episodes needed in order to tell it. They did not end GOT prematurely, no matter how many times people say it.

      Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t have minded more episodes in the least, but I enjoyed season 8 immensely without them. I honestly thought it was one of the better paced seasons, certainly better paced than seasons 2, 3, 5, and 7.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Ten Bears: Ha ha!

      What you wrote made me flash back to Cher’s [Alicia Silverstone’s] self-doubting internal monologue in this scene from “Clueless” (at 0:40), interrupted momentarily by…

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwTXojMq4KE

      …“I wonder if they have that in my size?”

      LOL. Omg, that’s one of my favourite movies of all time! And I LOVE that scene — so conflicted, so introspective, so momentarily distracted, back to inner monologue, epiphany in front of water fountain 🙂

      Favourite line:

      Mel: What the hell is that?
      Cher: A dress.
      Mel: Says who?
      Cher: Calvin Klein.

        Quote  Reply

    15. Young Dragon,

      I think that is how people have chosen to interpret the decision, it amounts to the same thing. They produced a bare bones story, it was like watching a ‘here’s what happened last time on GOT’ highlight reel at times. I think that episodes 4 and 6 were two episodes smashed together. An 8 episode season would have been spot on. They chose to do it in 6, because they wanted to.

      If people are saying that they should have made 9 or 10 seasons and couldn’t be bothered (I haven’t seen it myself, apart from GRRM of course) then yeah, I disagree with that.

      S8 is certainly better than 7, nothing happened in S7 away from Dany. They could have shortened 7, and made 8 longer for me.

        Quote  Reply

    16. Adrianacandle,

      Along those lines…

      (at 0:30)
      Mugger (after taking Cher’s cell phone and purse at gunpoint):
      “Lie on the ground. Face down. Come on!”

      Cher: “Oh no. You don’t understand. This is an Alaia.”

      Mugger: “An A-what-a?”

      Cher: “It’s like a totally important designer.”

        Quote  Reply

    17. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      Along those lines…

      (at 0:30)
      Mugger (after taking Cher’s cell phone and purse at gunpoint):
      “Lie on the ground. Face down. Come on!”

      Cher: “Oh no. You don’t understand. This is an Alaia.”

      Mugger: “An A-what-a?”

      Cher: “It’s like a totally important designer.”

      Now THAT is the human heart in conflict with itself!! Life vs. importantly designed dress….

      I think it’s time to watch Clueless now….

        Quote  Reply

    18. The Lord of Light hates me again, if a post of mine appears 3 times then oops. There was nothing in it, I just quoted a couple of people. Perhaps it was upset with my Star Wars talk lol. Not important anyway.

      I LOVE Clueless by the way.

        Quote  Reply

    19. Jenny,

      And their interpretation is dead wrong and it certainly does not amount to the same thing. If D&D really did slap together a final season as quickly as possible, then fans will have every right to feel ripped off, but that’s not what happened. D&D told the story they wanted to tell. If you liked it, great, if not, that’s fine too. Just don’t go making up facts because you can’t accept the reality of the situation. It’s just petty.

      Like I said, I wouldn’t have minded more episodes, but they weren’t needed, imo. Season 8 was anything but “bare bones.” Many storylines came to fruition in incredibly satisfying ways, such as Jon choosing duty over love, Arya giving up on her revenge so she can live, the Hound helping her reach this decision, Melisandre and Beric fulfilling their duty to the Lord of Light, Danerys finally giving in to her worst impulses, Tyrion casting down the old system of government and establishing a better one in its place, Theon dying for his foster family, Jorah dying for his queen, Brienne becoming Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Jaime becoming a better man by fighting for the realm and his unborn child, but being unable to escape his past sins, Sansa achieving independence for the North, etc. Is that what you call “bare bones?”

        Quote  Reply

    20. Young Dragon:
      Jenny

      … Season 8 was anything but “bare bones.” Many storylines came to fruition in incredibly satisfying ways, such as Jon choosing duty over love, Arya giving up on her revenge so she can live, the Hound helping her reach this decision, Melisandre and Beric fulfilling their duty to the Lord of Light, Danerys finally giving in to her worst impulses, Tyrion casting down the old system of government and establishing a better one in its place, Theon dying for his foster family, Jorah dying for his queen, Brienne becoming Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Jaime becoming a better man by fighting for the realm and his unborn child, but being unable to escape his past sins, Sansa achieving independence for the North, etc….”

      That’s actually a nice summation.
      Notice: Please be advised I might rip it off. 😬

        Quote  Reply

    21. Adrianacandle: Now THAT is the human heart in conflict with itself!! Life vs. importantly designed dress….

      I think it’s time to watch Clueless now….

      And now the critical question:
      Who wore her red dress better?

      🔘 Dany (Emilia Clarke)
      🔘 Cher (Alicia Silverstone)

        Quote  Reply

    22. Young Dragon,

      Well, we can agree to disagree, I was merely sating my opinion, I’m glad you were satisfied with the season, I’m not out to change your mind. I didn’t realise I had said anything controversial.

      Yes I think that the season was bare bones, as in the plots moved too quickly, with some scenes needing a bit more to connect them and some scenes needing to play out in full rather than cutting away mid conversation. As I said, some parts of the season felt like a highlight reel. And Bran as King is not a satisfying conclusion to anything, but it is what it is.

        Quote  Reply

    23. Jenny,

      It’s funny you mention King Bran, because he was my one criticism of the final season. I think they could have done more with his character. I don’t necessarily agree with people calling him Bran the Useless, because using himself as bait was critical in defeating the Night King. It was a small role, and will probably be bigger in the books, but it was no less important.

      As you said, let’s agree to disagree. I just feel saying D&D ended their show prematurely undercuts all the hard work they put into the final season, and I don’t understand why people keep insisting on this when it’s been proven false.

        Quote  Reply

    24. Efi: and then they made him doubt that he had to kill her and of course the smartest of all, Tyrion, was in the end the most gallactically stupid.
      If you want to make a bad guy, make a bad guy. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, what are they, good or bad or just stupid?

      I don’t think it’s about making anyone decidedly bad or good (although what they did to Dany from mid-805 on…). I think it’s more about how human emotion gunks things up and pretty badly, making people falliable, which is a theme in ASOIAF. Without these attachments and/or emotional drives, decisions would be easy. There’s no personal cost or sacrifice, no conflict, no anguish.

      Jon ended up f*cking things up by trying to save fArya because Arya is beloved to him when he knew he should have stayed neutral. This unwittingly invited the Bolton’s wrath with the Pink Letter, in which Ramsay declares Jon either meet his demands or Ramsay will attack. His growing connection to the wildlings and love for Ygritte challenged his mission that he must ultimately betray them to return to the Watch (“wrong to love her, wrong to leave her”) and he came to hate the prospect. In an effort to defend the realm from humanity’s greatest threat, Jon went south for help and fell in love with Dany — who later ended up becoming humanity’s second threat. Despite his horror at what she had done, he’s not ready to accept this, wants to believe there’s still a chance she’d be the kind of ruler she showed him in 706 and 803 (the kind who defends the realm) — until that very last second when she makes it clear destruction is the only way. If this had been a straight-up enemy (Ramsay, the Night King, a White Walker), Jon wouldn’t be facing any such conflict.

      Tyrion wanted so desperately to believe in Dany, that she’d be the one who’d make the world a better place and he thought he could cool her down and love played a part in this too. In the books, he succumbs to his darker aspects over his good after being treated like absolute crap, the breaking point being when he learns that a girl he loved, who Tywin had brutalized to teach her a lesson (including using Tyrion himself to rape her), really loved him back. She was no whore, she wasn’t after money, she really loved Tyrion and Tywin ripped that away from him while forcing Jaime to lie all this time. And in doing so, he turns against the one loving family member he has because love was taken away from him.

      In ADWD, Dany fears the darker aspects of herself and tries pushing them away, making conscious choices to avoid becoming her father. For the sake of peace, she makes compromise after compromise — having to go back on some of her own anti-slavery efforts to this end — and she ends up reaching a boiling point upon which she resolves herself to fire and blood. In 805, it seems like she reaches a snapping point upon the walls of King’s Landing where everything inside her breaks at once, going after the very people she had once come to save. And who she later believes she did save through death and destruction.

      And I think some of this goes into the heart of Maester Aemon’s speech to Jon about love and duty and why men of the Night’s Watch are forbidden to take wives, because love will divide loyalty to duty, it’ll take away from pragmatism. Jon, especially, has always struggled with that.

      I mean, you’re right, it is rushed. More episodes could have done wonders in fleshing this out so I hope these conflicts are more thoroughly explored in the books. Because human emotion really does gunk things up.

      Maybe, for this reason, King Bran is actually the best choice because he doesn’t have this problem.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Young Dragon,

      I didn’t mean to give the impression that I thought they had slapped it together, I can just see the thought process of those who do think that. And I know what they are using as ‘evidence’. I do think it was rushed, and when you have characters making huge turns you really feel that, Jaime going from a death threat to ‘I must return at once’ in two scenes will never be satisfying to me, the inclusion of that Bronn scene was bizarre. Cut it and It’s fine. I shouldn’t need to watch behind the scenes video’s and cast interviews to follow the characters motivations, but I did this season. It’s a bummer to know that they could have had more time, but I don’t think that they needed more seasons or anything like that.

      Bran I will never get over, I can only assume that GRRM gave them the plot point and nothing else, and I expect him to come up with a better reason for him to be king. That plot was shockingly underdeveloped in the show, and it has huge implications that cast a shadow over everything. Even if I praised everything else, I’d be thinking ‘but Bran, what does it mean? What are they trying to say?’ It kind of makes everything feel hollow to me, but that’s just how I feel about it.

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    26. Jenny,

      ”… Bran I will never get over, I can only assume that GRRM gave them the plot point and nothing else, and I expect him to come up with a better reason for him to be king. That plot was shockingly underdeveloped in the show, and it has huge implications that cast a shadow over everything. Even if I praised everything else, I’d be thinking ‘but Bran, what does it mean? What are they trying to say?’ It kind of makes everything feel hollow to me, but that’s just how I feel about it.“

      I am memories. Argle bargle. The End. 👿

      I did not coin the term, but confess to being one of those who’ve been calling him “Bran the Useless.”
      Look, I loved Arya & Sandor in S8. Like the old showbiz adage goes “Leave ‘em wanting more.”
      Bran? Not so much…

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    27. Adrianacandle,

      No, it’s about the city. This is the dialog:

      “Tyrion: A million people live in that city.
      Jon: I know.
      Tyrion: If you hear the bells ring, they’ve surrendered. Call off your men.
      Jon: I don’t think she’s letting anyone surrender.
      Tyrion: we have to try. How many children are in there? She’s not her father.
      Jon nods, unconvinced”.

      The edited scene keeps Tyrion’s line “If you hear the bells ring” and then cuts to Jon’s barely noticeable nod.

      Note that the inconsistency is for laughs. It was Tyrion who notified Jon about the population of the city in 7.7, and it is Jon who speaks about the children before he kills her. Are they playing broken phone or something?
      If they were my students, they’d be graded below the base. I mean the fans know what’s been said and done in GoT much better than the writers, it’s ridiculous.

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    28. Efi,

      They’d have to storm the city, in which a million people live, so there will doubtless be casualties along the way in battle since they’ll be fighting in a city. In 805, it looks like they’re set for battle to take the throne, which would mean taking the Red Keep — the source of power.

      It’d make no sense if they (and Dany) were planning to go all around this giant city fighting everywhere when they need to take the Red Keep to take the city. Dany’s goal has been to take the Red Keep and kill Cersei so I don’t know why any character in-universe would have an expectation that she’d burn the whole of the city, especially when Cersei (the source of Dany’s major suffering) is in the Red Keep, as well as the throne. There’s not much sense in burning the whole city rather than going for the source of power (or the person responsible for Dany’s suffering), nor is there a precedent for Dany aimlessly attacking.

      And when Dany does go to burn the city, she doesn’t even head to the Red Keep or try targeting Cersei. It looks like she’s going to go there for a second until she starts strafing the streets, the Red Keep a result of collateral damage (and Cersei with it.) It’s a totally aimless attack that I’m not sure anybody could have anticipated because it’s unlike anything Dany’s done before.

      If Jon and Tyrion expected Dany to burn the whole city, it doesn’t explain why they are so stunned when Dany starts doing just that. It also doesn’t explain why D&D said Dany made this choice spontaneously. Tyrion’s jaw hits the ground while Jon is in a stupor himself — to the point where he’s barely with it until he realizes what’s going on and tries to force his men back.

      They’d be horrified regardless but they seem pretty shocked. With burning the Red Keep, there would absolutely be casualties (Varys references ten thousand people are in there?) but the show made a pretty big point of Cersei specifically filling the Red Keep to stop Dany from conquering King’s Landing.

      and it is Jon who speaks about the children before he kills her. Are they playing broken phone or something?
      If they were my students, they’d be graded below the base. I mean the fans know what’s been said and done in GoT much better than the writers, it’s ridiculous.

      Well, Jon is horrified by the carnage — during and afterward — so it does make sense to me why he’d confront Dany about it. He’s not okay with it. And I don’t think he, Tyrion, Varys, or anybody was expecting Dany would do what she did to the extent she did it.

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    29. Young Dragon: He said that’s the happiest they could have made it, but that’s not the same as saying it was a happy ending. A lot of fans didn’t think so, anyway. To them, a happy ending for Jon would be for him to be recognized as Rhaegar and Lyanna’s legitimate son and declared King of the Seven Kingdoms, not exiled to the Wall where he’ll rarely see his family or friends again. A happy ending for Arya would have been to marry Gendry and become Lady of Storms End, not sailing west alone. Sansa became queen, but she’s alone. Same with Bran. Danerys, Jaime, and Brienne fans certainly didn’t consider it a happy ending. One even called the ending nihilistic. So no, it wasn’t a fault of the writing at all.

      There is nothing else at fault but the writing, because when you finish off a story you have to make the conclusion of several character arcs feel earned for the audience. They obviously failed to do that otherwise they wouldn’t be asked about the “divisive” ending all the time. (And even then, I think simply calling it divisive is being kind)

      But even then, Game of Thrones has never been about giving the audience what they want, but every time they did something the audience didn’t like it always felt that it was earned within the story, so the audience always went with it. So I find the excuse of “the audience simply didn’t like it” to be quite weak. If things feel earned, people will always go along. If things feel contrived… well that’s when writers run into trouble. So they went with the happiest possible ending but along the way people felt contrivances and therefore certain developments failed to land.

      Unfortunately, that seems to be the shows reputation now.. it is what it is. GoT has taken over LOST as the latest and greatest show to butcher the ending. Now we’ll wait and see how long that lasts. I would say LOST’s ending has actually aged quite well, although the controversy with LOST never had to do with any of the characters, but perhaps the same will be able to be said about GOT 10 years down the line.

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    30. “The Small Council at the end is mostly good people; it’s Brienne, Samwell Tarly, Davos, Bran, Tyrion.”

      This line in particular must be very insulting to George himself. Part of the reasons he is writing the books is to answer his issues with the phantasy genre and the clichés that for decades have plagued it.

      One of George biggest issues to Lord of the Rings ending was Aragorn reign and his classical philosophy. He was a good King because he was a good dude. Which prompted Martin to ask the famous question “What´s Aragorn´s tax policy like? What did he do with the surviving orcs. Did he exterminated them, even the women and children? “I´m trying to explore these issues in my books.”

      And so both Cersei arc in AFFC and Daenerys in ADWD form part of this question of Martin. The ugly truth of governing.

      And this is what the writers of the show gave us. The very same thing that Martin is writing against is their endgame. They are telling the audience that things are gonna be well because the small council is now formed by good people.

      If you have read Fire & Blood you know that Jahaerys small council was full of good people like septon Barth (best Hand ever) and ser Ryam Redwine (a paragon of chivalry). What happened? They were replaced by ser Otto Hightower and ser Criston Cole the kingmaker, men who were responsible (amongst many others) of the Dance of Dragons.

      And so the wheel still exists. Waiting for the next Tywin Lannister or Aegon the Unworthy or Littlefinger.

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    31. Eonwe: And so the wheel still exists. Waiting for the next Tywin Lannister or Aegon the Unworthy or Littlefinger.

      How do you think the wheel can be broken? Or how do you anticipate GRRM doing it? If he does it? (This is a totally sincere question! Because if this new council is open to more of the same problems down the road, and this council is full of good people, what can break the wheel, if anything? It sort of seems like our modern governments are always running into the same problems over and over themselves.)

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    32. Efi,

      Well, Liam obviously means that the Lannisters as the bad guys are gone. And Tyrion is the one to credit for changing the system, so just saying that he is doing community service is a bit disrespectful I think. It seems like the rule of paying for your mistakes only applies to him for the living characters going by your reasoning. Even Isaac himself said that he chose Tyrion for various reasons, not certainly just because he’s a criminal to be punished. As if he had been the one on Drogon when instead he was risking his life for the people by freeing Jaime or as if he had been the only one in this series to make mistakes.

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    33. mau,

      You’re right Tyrion’s costumes are so underrated and I think his last one is pretty reminiscent of his father, which was a great touch since he ends up in the same position.

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    34. Jay Targ,

      The divisive ending has nothing to do with people feeling the character arcs weren’t earned, people simply didn’t like where D&D took the story. That has nothing to do with writing, but with personal taste. Saying it was divisive is not necessarily the case, it is true, but only because more people liked the final season than disliked it.

      Saying “people didn’t like it” is not weak, it’s reality. Have you actually seen the complaints online? People wanted the White Walkers to be the final enemy, they wanted Jon to be king, they wanted Jon to have a duel with the Night King and kill him, they wanted Danerys to be queen, they wanted her and Jon to get married, they wanted Arya to kill Cersei, etc. Those criticisms are not about “unearned” moments. People claim they care about the how and not the what, but then they clearly struggle to come up with criticisms that actually make sense or are explained by the logic presented in the show.

      I actually didn’t understand where the outrage from Lost was coming from. Even though it wasn’t my favorite show or finale, I was satisfied with the ending. GOT, on the other hand, was outstanding and was my second favorite finale of all time, after The Shield. I think you’re vastly overestimating how many people disliked it, but if you’re not, who cares? I enjoyed GOT from beginning to end, and I honestly believe there will never be another show like it. Those of you who decided to be far more critical of it this year than any other, for whatever reason, have done yourself a disservice.

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    35. Eonwe,

      And this is what the writers of the show gave us. The very same thing that Martin is writing against is their endgame. They are telling the audience that things are gonna be well because the small council is now formed by good people.“

      Huh. Do we know this though?

      I mean, we’re left with a Secretary of the Treasury who’s not only got a virtual monopoly on food production, but whose top priority is reopening the brothels. Notwithstanding his gift of gab, his experience as mercenary for hire who doesn’t know how a loan works hardly seems to qualify him for the position. Kinda like Mnuchin.

      The king himself is a politically inexperienced space cadet who was wheeled into the small council, said hello, and then was wheeled out two minutes later. (Sort of like King Robert 2.0 without the drinking, whoring, and other fun stuff.)

      Tyrion? Naming someone Hand as punishment for a string of failures as a Hand seems counterintuitive.

      In my view, the most qualified administrators were either exiled, or are setting up an independent sovereign kingdom in the far north. The war hero who’d make a stable, popular post-war executive (like Washington or Eisenhower) is off on a cruise to parts unknown.

      Oh, and there’s a pissed-off fire-breathing WMD still on the loose.

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    36. Adrianacandle,

      First we have to understand that the situation remains the same. Six Kingdoms governed by a king. The show tries in a very simplistic way to present us an elected king as a huge step forward. No evil spawn of Bran will sit as King when he dies.

      But as we know, elected leaders are far from perfect. Nothing warraties that the next elected King is someone corrupt as Aegon IV, innefective as Aenys I or a tyrant like Maegor I. Democracies with strong countermeasures certainly haven´t stoped bad leaders from being elected.

      Furthermore Fire and Blood explains how Viserys I was elected in a true Grand Council (and not the joke on the show) in which every single noble house of Westeros had an equal vote. This election in time would be one of the reason for the Dance of Dragons.

      Third. George R R Martin once spoke of the Targ dinasty. On how it was raised and how it felt. His works were that the Targ united Westeros throught dragonfire power. The small council was a goverment body designed for governing when Dragons weren´t needed. But the very nature of the Targ dinasty meant that the small council never was equiped to properly deal with Seven Kingdoms. When the Targs dragons died, all it required was a mad king and a lovestuck prince for the dinasty to fall. Because it never developped properly institutions.

      And what we see in the finale is more of the same. The same old small council, the same kingsguard and an elected monarch. But nothing gave us warranty that Bran succesor won´t screw up. Nothing warrants that the succesors of the current smallcouncil and kingsguard are gona be good dudes.

      And this is what I criticize. Martin doesn´t like the trope of good person=good ruler. That´s why Tywin Lannister exist. That man is rotten to his core and is full of shit. But he was hand of Aerys for 20 years that saw peace and prosperity. Robert was a piece of shit. But under his reign a woman could travel throught the kingsroad naked without fear of being assaulted and raped.

      There is also the issue of the north being granted seccesion. This in the books context plant the questions of what will happen with Dorne. A kingdom who never bowed to the Targ dragons and only joined under matrimony. I´m not seeing the Dornish being happy with Bran granting the north independence. Or the Iron Islands either.

      Then there is the fact that king Bran is something that has no foreshadowing. Coupled with the fact that Bran has no political clout in the south. Moreover. Since his character is entering the metaphisical realm more and more a wizard king Bran would encounter the opposition of the faith of the seven and the maesters.

      Tyrion line of Bran having the best story is so bad that when I watched that part I inmediately thought of the dialogue between King Arthur and the peasant in the Monty Python version.

      You are asking me how would I end the series? I am gonna answer you truthfully. I don´t know. And I think that Martin himself is stuck with this same problem. He wants to end this way the series. But he has found himself that he only has two remaining books to take the characters from where they are in ADWD towards this ending.

      Before the series finale I was hoping for the Seven Kingdoms splitting apart or the creation of some kind of proto parliament. Now I find myself pitying George. He will never finish the series because he doesn´t know how to do it in two books.

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    37. Ten Bears,

      It was writen in the script submited for the Emmys. Something like “We leave these better men as they plan a better future”.

      I must say that I prefer your outtake on things. I always find myself joking “What´s Bran tax policy? Brothels.”

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    38. Eonwe,

      Thanks. I wasn’t aware the script said “[s]omething like “We leave these better men as they plan a better future”.”

      I was just going by what I saw on the screen.

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    39. Eonwe: You are asking me how would I end the series? I am gonna answer you truthfully. I don´t know. And I think that Martin himself is stuck with this same problem. He wants to end this way the series. But he has found himself that he only has two remaining books to take the characters from where they are in ADWD towards this ending.

      Thanks for your thoughts on this! You echo my thoughts in this quote. I don’t think GRRM knows how to get to his ending, and not in two books (unless they’re the size of telephone books), he’s got so much up in the air and so much to tie together.

      But no, I suppose there is no guarantee that whoever their successors are going to be will be good people — or good at their jobs, elected or no. And that’s sort of the problem we ourselves fall into today. Bad leaders can still come into power. We’re not at the mercy of blood succession but elections are no preventative guarantee against bad leaders.

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    40. Ten Bears,

      I try too mainly to go by what is on screen. That´s the final product after all. I still remember Benioff “We are watching the end of the dothraki” line.

      And on screen the whole situation feels like a joke. Bron master of coin? Brothels? Lord of Highgarden? What do the other noble house of the Reach say about it? Sam as grandmaester? Excuse me guys but I thought the grandmaester was elected by the Citadel conclave. There´s no way they are gonna elect someone who hasn´t forged a single link. Tyrion as hand, yes. Because he did a fantastic job as Daenerys hand. And king Bran like “Hi dudes” “Bye dudes. I´m gonna be in the weirwoodnet playing Fortnite Medieval”.

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    41. Adrianacandle,

      Just Daenerys arc from wherever she is to Vaes Dothrak, back to Meereen, sailing to Westeros (with two stops hinted at Volantis and Pentos) and finally reaching it is a job of titanic proportions.

      We could find ourselves in the end of TWOW and Dany finaly reaching Dragonstone. If we are optimistic.

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    42. Eonwe: Just Daenerys arc from wherever she is to Vaes Dothrak, back to Meereen, sailing to Westeros (with two stops hinted at Volantis and Pentos) and finally reaching it is a job of titanic proportions.

      We could find ourselves in the end of TWOW and Dany finaly reaching Dragonstone. If we are optimistic.

      When I first finished ADWD, that was one of my concerns too. All the characters are so spread out (with quite a few new POV characters we need to worry about) that it’s hard to picture these storylines starting to come together anytime soon.

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    43. Jenny,

      I will never understand how they arrived at that conclusion. D&D have been saying for years that this was a 70 episode story, and nothing they said since then has conflicted with that statement. Not only that, but the final season took longer to film than the seasons that came before it. With those two facts in mind, how can anyone come to the conclusion that they wanted to get their story over with and ended it abruptly so they can start working on Star Wars?

      Jaime leaving Brienne for Cersei wasn’t about how he felt about either of the two women, but rather how he felt about himself. Jaime was in a very dark place and couldn’t forgive himself for what he’s done. He went back to Cersei because he felt that the love of a “hateful woman” was the only love he deserved.

      I have already gotten over King Bran. I never cared about his character, one way or the other, and it didn’t really matter to me about who sat on the Iron Throne. The bar had been set incredibly low. Bran has set up a nice Small Council for himself, and that’s what I’m truly interested in. It’s the best Small Council we’ve seen in the entire series.

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    44. Young Dragon,

      ”…I have already gotten over King Bran. I never cared about his character, one way or the other, and it didn’t really matter to me about who sat on the Iron Throne. The bar had been set incredibly low. Bran has set up a nice Small Council for himself, and that’s what I’m truly interested in. It’s the best Small Council we’ve seen in the entire series.”

      In retrospect, I wonder about the decision to omit Bran from S5 entirely if he was destined to be the future king…

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    45. Eonwe,

      ”Then there is the fact that king Bran is something that has no foreshadowing. Coupled with the fact that Bran has no political clout in the south. Moreover. Since his character is entering the metaphisical realm more and more a wizard king Bran would encounter the opposition of the faith of the seven and the maesters.

      Tyrion line of Bran having the best story is so bad that when I watched that part I inmediately thought of the dialogue between King Arthur and the peasant in the Monty Python version.”

      ______
      I assume this is the Monty Python scene you’re referring to…

      Monty Python & The Holy Grail

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Jb2gqu5xw

      (at 1:00 to 3:02)

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    46. Jenny,

      I mean it’s not that hard to understand what they tried to say with Bran, even if I agree that it was underdeveloped, but the point is really clear.

      It’s rejection of the right of conquest and right of birth and triumph of wisdom and knowledge. It’s answer to that Tywin’s question from S4.

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    47. Ten Bears,

      No one would care for that if he was more interesting in the last two seasons. It’s better to skip a season than to create filler if there is nothing for him to do.

      With characterisation from the last two season Bran’s appearance in S5 wouldn’t change anything.

      I think the simple solution was to make him appear really wise and not so detached from everyone. I think the whole concept of that character was wrong in the last 2 seasons. If they made him “Bran the Wise” he wouldn’t even need more screentime. Everyone would say, yeah he is the smartest person in the world, it makes sense that he will be king.

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    48. mau,

      He can’t do anything more. The man has found himself that he has two remaining books to write. And in those two books he has to move plot and characters from when they were at the end of ADWD towards this end. Only two books to reach this ending. He has written himself in a corner. So we’ll never see his answer to Aragorn’s tax policy.

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    49. Eonwe,

      And proto parliament is better system than elective monarchy why? I mean there are many examples in history where those systems transformed in tyrannical rule as well.

      Humanity never made a perfect political system and you expect Martin and Benioff & Weiss to do that in popular books and show?

      Everything you said about flaws of elective monarchy, about Dorne and Iron Islands is true. That’s why Tyrion said “ask me again in 10 years”. No one knows what will happen. New wars or peace and stability. Maybe Drogon returns, maybe Dorne tries to be independent, maybe there is new LF. Life goes on. No one knows what will happen. It’s open ended.

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    50. mau:
      Ten Bears,

      “I think the simple solution was to make him appear really wise and not so detached from everyone. I think the whole concept of that character was wrong in the last 2 seasons. If they made him “Bran the Wise” he wouldn’t even need more screentime. Everyone would say, yeah he is the smartest person in the world, it makes sense that he will be king.”

      For sure. The way he was portrayed, as a detached automaton, shouted “weirdo” more than “wisdom.”

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    51. Eonwe,

      Then he has no right to feel insulted over anything. Benioff and Weiss had deadlines and budget, so this idea that they need to produce something perfect, while original author failed, is unrealistic.

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    52. Adrianacandle,

      There’s not much sense in burning the whole city rather than going for the source of power (or the person responsible for Dany’s suffering), nor is there a precedent for Dany aimlessly attacking.

      Her attack wasn’t “aimless,” and there is plenty of precedent for Dany killing the innocent along with the guilty; she did it when she revenge-crucified the Masters — only to discover afterwards she’d counter-productively murdered persons who’d agreed with her, and could have helped her succeed as their new ruler.

      Cersei cynically packed the Red Keep with civilians as human shields. In the throne room on Dragonstone, Dany correctly tells Tyrion this is an attempt to use Dany’s mercy against her. By burning the entire city down right before Cercei’s eyes, Dany makes an unambiguous statement about power and mercy: ‘Pack the Red Keep in hopes I’ll relent? Watch THIS!’

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    53. Since this post is about Maisie Williams…

      Here’s Sandor & Arya’s last scene (S8e5)
      0:38 – 1:15: Watch Arya’s expressions
      change 😠🙄😥

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    54. Young Dragon,

      Yeah, I understand that now, I did my homework lol. I do think his love for Cersei played a big part though, this is the reason they kept them together for so long in the show, he was devoted until the end. Or he remembered that he was in his final episodes. I don’t think he expected to survive the battle, and when he did he was lost, that led him back to Cersei. They also kept the pregnancy to give Jaime and Tyrion a reason to save her.

      This is all supported by D&D, who said that Jaime was addicted to Cersei, and NCW and Lena. He said that leaving Cersei to her fate was impossible for him, she said that they both realised how much they loved each other, and nothing else mattered. That’s fine, I get it, but then we come back to Bronn. I really struggle to accept this plot when she sent Bronn to kill him, I said threat in my last post but it wasn’t, she actually ordered his death. For all Jaime knew, he’d step foot in KL and she’d order the Mountain to finish the job. He then found out that Cersei scored a massive victory by killing a dragon, and for some reason that was Jaime’s cue to go rushing back to save her. She seemed to be in a good position to me. This all happened in 20 minutes after he had slept with another woman for the first time. I wish my reaction had been, ‘oh no Jaime, listen to Brienne, you do deserve to live’ rather than ‘… I need to look this up on the internet’.

      I like to think that I am vaguely intelligent, but Episode 4 made me feel stupid, thankfully NCW saved me when he endorsed an article on Twitter a few weeks after the show ended. That’s when I finally got the self loathing thing.

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    55. Ten Bears: And now the critical question:
      Who wore her red dress better?

      🔘 Dany (Emilia Clarke)
      🔘 Cher (Alicia Silverstone)

      Gah, I missed this question!!

      Cher. Always Cher. It’s an Alaiaiaahahaa 😉

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    56. mau,

      That would be easier for me to accept if they put Aemon’s ghost on the throne, but Bran’s powers throw a spanner in the works. Westeros is now a surveillance state, so now I’m just thinking about 1984, what does that say about society? That this type of ruler is the best option. Who is Bran? Is he Bran or the 3ER, what does he want? So many questions that leave the ending feeling hollow to me. If GRRM ever finishes the books, he has his work cut out for him with this, this is his plot not D&D’s, and they didn’t know the answers either.

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    57. Jenny,

      I think it was clear Bran will not use his powers to turn Westeros into surveillance state. He wanted new Masters of Whispers. That’s the difference between him and Daenerys. They both have huge power but she said – they don’t get to choose. And after what he did do Hodor he lets people make their own choices.

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    58. mau,

      Ah yes, I’ve thought about that too. Bran can’t see everything at all times, or his head would explode like Cate Blanchett in Indiana Jones, he needs an idea of where to look. So the Master of Whispers works on the ground, lets him know of anything interesting, and Bran just has a quick look see.

      We don’t know much about Bran in terms of his intentions, because he says he isn’t Bran anymore, he can’t be Lord of anything etc, but there he is anyway. The way they set him up as a contributor to Dany’s downfall makes me super suspicious of him.

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    59. Roy and Efi are entitled to their opinions on the last season of GoT. I personally didn’t find season 8 terrible. (You’ve said that before Dame, do I hear you chorus?). I don’t think the neurones in my brain were working any less efficiently after episode 5, season 8 was broadcast than prior to its airing. Then I’m probably in the minority because I was glad things were speeded up towards the end though I wouldn’t have minded a couple more episodes (speeded up in the sense that we didn’t have all the subplots from AFFC and ADWD) – I didn’t mind the Griffs being left out and I didn’t mind the Greyjoy subplot being shortened/changed. My queries about the adaptation were earlier (Nursie Tulsa instead of J Westerling and not really showing clearly that Cersei was (eventually) consenting in THAT scene in the Sept.

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    60. Jenny:
      mau,

      Ah yes, I’ve thought about that too.Bran can’t see everything at all times, or his head would explode like Cate Blanchett in Indiana Jones, he needs an idea of where to look.So the Master of Whispers works on the ground, lets him know of anything interesting, and Bran just has a quick look see.

      We don’t know much about Bran in terms of his intentions, because he says he isn’t Bran anymore, he can’t be Lord of anything etc, but there he is anyway.The way they set him up as a contributor to Dany’s downfall makes me super suspicious of him.

      That sort of sounds like the “invasion of the 3ER” theory… Perhaps it was the 3ER’s goal to grab himself a Stark, take over his body and reappear in the world and take the Iron Throne… Hummm…

      I haven’t got to my final Bran chapter yet in the book. GRRM has to have something more critical in mind for Bran in the battle with the Others (White Walkers). He has to do more than just watch Raven TV with his virtual reality goggles all night. I think Bran as King was Tyrion’s creation, since Bran had a good “story” that he could sell it to the people. Bran happened to be there at the Dragon Pit (well Bran knew he was supposed to be there) and no one felt one way or the other about him. That’s why Tyrion thought he might be acceptable, but that’s also why so many fans are upset. They weren’t invested in Bran being King. He wasn’t even on the radar. And that’s exactly why Tyrion nominated him. People were ambivalent about Bran and just said OK. It does say something about our current political world and how polarized people can get. But most likely in the real world he wouldn’t be accepted by either current political party, so it would make everyone upset in our real world.

      Bran may very well be king in the books, but I hope he’s not an afterthought in Winds of Winter when it eventually comes out. GRRM has to have something major in mind for Bran. I think since D&D didn’t have source material on Bran they just didn’t have any great ideas of what to do with him. They probably had in their outline from GRRM that he would be king, and that’s about it.

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    61. Tron79,

      Ha, I know! I can go down the rabbit hole with Bran/3 eyed crow. I don’t trust him or the children of the forest. There are some shenanigans going on up there, with Bran’s diet let’s say.

      I absolutely think Bran will be King, but his story has a long long way to go, and I’m not convinced I’ll buy it from George either to be honest.

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    62. Tron79: That sort of . GRRM has to have something more critical in mind for Bran in the battle with the Others (White Walkers).

      Maybe he will come up with something if he ever writes those books, but we know from Isaac’s interviews that the only thing he knew about future for Bran is “Hold the door” moment and that he will become king.

      GRRM is gardner after all, which mean writer with no real plan or idea what to do with his story and characters. If he really knew the books would have been finished long time ago.

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    63. Jenny,

      I will quote parts from Yazen’s essay that really nailed what Bran the Broken is. And he is only person who had theory that Bran will be king at the end of ASOIAF long before S8.

      “Bran: I’m not really… not anymore. I remember what it felt like, to be Brandon Stark. But I remember so much else now….”

      Simply put, he’s not really Bran anymore. Bran’s memories are not replaced. He still has the memory of being Brandon Stark, but (having taken in an ocean of visions and memories upon his predecessors death) those memories are overwhelmed by so many other memories that are not his.

      If you pay attention to the tone of the scene in which Bran is crowned, it’s incredibly uplifting. It’s depicted as Tyrion’s finest hour. When Sam comes in with the first “aye” confirming the new monarch, and Tyrion looks upon the Lords and Ladies of Westeros finally agreeing upon who should rule them, the music that plays is literally called “Break the Wheel.” Given the uplifting tone, this idea that what’s really happening in this scene is that everyone is being duped by a malevolent bird god police state… just doesn’t add up.

      You might ask, what’s really going on then? What’s the narrative point of crowning the boy that “died in the cave”?

      The point is the elevation of Bran’s story because it contradicts every hyper masculine, militaristic, feudal value which the Seven Kingdoms had previously championed. But remember, GRRM is an anti-war writer. Naturally, the values of his writing are going to convey his ideals, and Bran the Broken is the apotheosis of them. The shot of Romanticism that the narrative held all along, and that Westeros desperately needed.

      Essentially what happens is that Daenerys serves as an intervention for the Westerosi aristocracy. As a conquering authoritarian who displays terrifying strength in the name of her personal conception of right and wrong, she shows the Seven Kingdoms the end result of their system, and the natural conclusion of what they value. Similarly Bran is in many ways the anti-thesis of Daenerys, and thus a reaction against her.

      The important part of the ending isn’t so much “how will Bran rule” seeing as it seems pretty clear that Tyrion will be the one doing the day to day ruling. The important part is Bran’s legacy, and his legacy is contained in the values of his story. A story of vulnerability, resilience, and understanding, which counteracts the violent conquest of Aegon Targaryen and the story of the Iron Throne. It’s the story which will get remembered, and likely have the most power. Not the legislative reforms of any one administration, or the reign of a single king (after all, Bran probably won’t live super long, and he certainly isn’t going to be hooked up to a tree), but the long term process of transforming the society’s values. Of letting go of the toxic idea embodied by a seat of swords.

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    64. mau,

      Thanks, that’s interesting, do you have a link? I’d like to read the whole thing. The only other person I saw predicting Bran was Gwendoline Christie, she must be some kind of genius to come up with that. Of course NCW told her that it didn’t make any sense lol.

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    65. Jenny:
      Tron79,

      I absolutely think Bran will be King, but his story has a long long way to go, and I’m not convinced I’ll buy it from George either to be honest.

      I think the main problem for the fandom is that they trusted GRRM too much and majority never realized that “Aragorn’s tax policy” is just one big BS.

      It’s just an excuse for his filler storylines in ADWD. Everyone saw that he is wasting time in Meereen but then he had to give some deep or profound reason for that. “Learning to rule” arc is a lie. We know that Deanerys will never rule, we know how her story end, and we know that “learning to rule” is just excuse. He lost control of his own story.

      And ofc when the writer spends a lot of time shiting on LOTR and Aragorn and talking how important it is to learn to rule and how other fantasy writers never deal with those things and then he puts a wizard on the throne it feels like he is a hypocrite. Because he is.

        Quote  Reply

    66. mau,

      Oh thanks, I will have a look at that. I’m not a fan of reddit, I find the layout so awkward to read but the discussion should be useful.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      Here’s that scene you quoted from “Clueless.” I especially liked great character actor Dan Hedaya, who played her father Mel.*

      * Mel (to Cher’s date): “Hey you! Anything happens to my daughter I got a .45 and a shovel. I doubt anybody would miss you.”

      Thank-you!! I love that scene! Christian’s not worried enough… 🙂

      And the dad responding to Cher’s dramatic entrance requirements: “Then he can wait outside!”

      Also, this:

      Mel: Would you tell me what this is?
      Cher: ‘A second notice for three outstanding tickets…’ I don’t remember getting a first notice…
      Mel: The ticket is the first notice! I didn’t even know you could get tickets without a license!
      Cher: Oh, sure you can! You can get tickets anytime!

      XDDDD!

        Quote  Reply

    68. Adrianacandle,

      I’m trying to find the scene where Mel (a lawyer) looks at Cher’s report card and she explains she raised her grade from a C to an A- by arguing with the teacher, and Mel – proudly – smiles and says something like “Honey, I couldn’t be happier if this was based on actual grades.”

      P.S. Six Degrees of Game of Thrones:
      Cher’s father Mel played by Dan Hedaya, who co-starred in “Mulholland Drive” with Naomi Watts: our leading lady in the GoT prequel.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Adrianacandle,

      Oh, and one other thing. Does Paul Rudd have one of those ruby chokers Melisandre wore? I could swear that guy hasn’t aged a day since he was in “Clueless” nearly 25 years ago.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Adrianacandle,

      Yep! I’m totally on board with this theory, it’s mad enough to be true.

      Ten Bears,

      I think he’s beautiful. There is a great meme going around of him doing the same hot ones challenge as Maisie. It’s the gift that keeps on giving.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Adrianacandle,

      Six Degrees of Game of Thrones, cont.
      (a bit of a stretch here…)

      Wallace Shawn, who played teacher Mr. Hall in “Clueless”, also co-starred in “The Princess Bride”, in which the Princess’ love interest’s signature line in response to her requests or suggestions was: “As you wish.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbX1U1tx9aw

      ——-
      When Gendry reunited with Princess
      Arya Stark aka Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess (ASNAWP) on Game of Thrones in S8e1, he responded to Arya’s request with a similar line: “As you wish, my lady.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sur2q0zVctA

      at 1:45 – 1:50

      (Of course, Gendry’s line was also a callback to his S2 scene in which “Arry” reveals her true identity to him; he says “I should be calling you ‘my lady’”; she replies “Do NOT call me ‘my lady’!”; and he playfully responds: “As my lady commands.”)

      ———-
      God I miss the show!!! 😢

        Quote  Reply

    72. Addendum to 12:37 pm comment above:

      I should note that I wasn’t the one who spotted the similarity between the line “As you wish” in “The Princess Bride” and in “Game of Thrones.”

      Also, I recall reading some commentaries suggesting that the GoT’s scriptwriters expressly intended Gendry’s line to be a callback to “The Princess Bride.” However, I do not know if that is true or not.

        Quote  Reply

    73. I got through half of the linked video “Maisie Williams tries to answer questions as she eats spicy wings.”

      All I can say is that Maisie Williams is f*cking photogenic! The camera loves her.

      And it’s so nice that little girl we saw in S1 has turned into a socially conscious, well-rounded, young woman (and fashion icon) who’s lost none of the charisma and charm the showrunners and casting directors spotted ten years ago.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Young Dragon,

      ”A happy ending for Arya would have been to marry Gendry and become Lady of Storms End, not sailing west alone…”
      _____
      Well, once Gendry’s endorphin and dopamine levels stabilized, he should’ve realized Arya never cared about titles or status and would’ve remembered she never wanted to be a lady; then he’d say “F*ck Storm’s End, f*ck being a lord”, hop into a boat (or join her crew) and go on adventures with her.

      Sigh…

        Quote  Reply

    75. Edit: During S8e4, I wanted to shout at my TV screen to Gendry: “Damn it man! Play it cool! Don’t propose marriage to her after one night! And why would you think a free spirit warrior princess who just saved the world would want to have a boring life as Lady of Storm’s End?”

      (Gendry should’ve listened to Sandor who tried to temper his obsessive desire to find Arya right after he’d been legitimized as Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End.)

        Quote  Reply

    76. Joining the conversation about Bran, the deleted bit of the script about him following the movements of the bug on his seat and then letting it go down its path pretty much summarizes that Bran is making sure that everyone follows his natural destiny and they’re at the right place where according to their talents they can do the most good.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      I found the report card scene in “Clueless.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8hsXvCceDE

      It’s at 4:57 -5:37

      Thank-you!! <3

      I've been watching it today — I love Travis's acceptance speech for the most tardys XD;;

      Travis: This is so unexpected. I, uh, I didn’t even have a speech prepared but I would like to say this — tardiness is not something you can do all on your own. Many, many people contributed to my tardiness. Uh, I’d like to thank my parents for never giving me a ride to school, the L.A. city bus driver for taking a chance on an unknown kid, and last but not least, the wonderful crew at McDonald’s for spending hours making those egg McMuffins — without which, I might never be tardy!

      And nice catch between The Princess Bride and Gendry!! I watched The Princess Bride to death when I was a kid!

      “Have fun storming the castle!”

      “Oooooh, look who knows so much! It just so happens that your friend here is only mostly dead.”

        Quote  Reply

    78. Jenny: Yep! I’m totally on board with this theory, it’s mad enough to be true.

      Yep! I’d be surprised at this point if it wasn’t. It’s just the right amount of twisted for this storyline.

      Ah, the future king. Having unknowingly partaken in previous

      cannibalism of a friend

      😉

        Quote  Reply

    79. Adrianacandle,

      “From the script snippets, I think Jon loves her but by 805, is beginning to fear she’s starting to spiral. From 806, it doesn’t seem like he believes Dany is a monster and has hope for her. He tries to reason out why she did what she did, thinks the war is done, and in the script direction for the final episode while he’s trying to talk her down, it makes mention that he wants to believe in her more than anything but she’s giving him all the wrong answers.

      So I think that’s the ultimate human heart in conflict with itself. Love is why Jon doesn’t want to turn against her and why he keeps hoping against hope she’s not the person Tyrion is saying she is (in 806) — until Dany, herself, shows she’s resolved to destruction.”

      Adriana you keep counfounding books and show and you’re doing it in a way that explains what you believe, but that’s not helping my poor, blurred overthinker’s mind. In the books, Jon says this:

      “The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.”

      So how is it that this guy here from the books still “keeps hoping against hope” ? It doesn’t make absolutely no freaking sense.
      Is it possible that after she’s actually killed babes on the breasts he doesn’t think that she’s a monster?
      He calls Stannis a monster just for the intention. The act hasn’t yet been accomplished here. What would this guy think if he actually got to know Daenerys? If he saw the massacre with his own eyes? Would he still believe in her? Would he love her?

      They should have kept that piece of dialog in. It would show that Jon could actually foresee what would happen, unlike Tyrion. Instead of Tyrion having this little speech in 8.6., it should have been Jon giving it. Or Jon should have explicitly stated somewhere to somebody that he loved her; he loved her, he served her until the end and his case is a good example of what happens if you follow orders blindly, or despite your reservations, or because you love someone so much. Oh, I forgot, that line was also omitted in the editing.
      What did they do with Jon in the end? It doesn’t make sense, it absolutely doesn’t.

      Also, what happens in the show is absolutely (for me) no proof about how this story will evolve in the books. One is not evidence for the other. If the show chose to show a “romance” (whatever it was), it doesn’t mean that this is what will be in the books.

      The show simply showed the story that sold it best. But imo they couldn’t commit even to that (I wonder why, I really do).
      And as for the scripts, they are tampered. They’re public documents now, and as such they are made to tell the audience what to think. So if Jon loves Daenerys in the scripts, I didn’t see it anywhere in season 8, and I won’t believe tampered texts over my own eyes. And if Jon loved Daenerys in the show, it certainly is no proof that that guy above would love her in the books.

      As I said before, I’d love to see Jon as a villain who doesn’t give a [email protected]@@ if he wants to get things done, as his deleted line “I don’t think she’s letting anyone surrender today” would indicate. But the show didn’t go there, it just made him a fool who didn’t know what he was dealing with.

      Since the show didn’t want to commit to clear-cut story lines, it appears I’ll have to wait for Martin’s book to grace me with some answers…

        Quote  Reply

    80. Efi,

      (My posts are getting spam-checked so I’m going to try to answer this in pieces. Hopefully it works X_X)

      My intent was to provide examples that showcase the theme of human emotion muddling and impacting character decisions from both the books and show, because it appears to be a theme in both. I feel this is the “human heart in conflict with itself,” how emotion impacts decision making and takes away from (sometimes crucial) objectivity. Those were just a few examples, I could provide more if you wish.

      Jon is a character who feels deeply, which has affected his decision-making more than once in the books and the show.

      As for Dany, yeah. Jon did get to know Daenerys and the Dany he knew was still actually Daenerys, that wasn’t false and he’s having trouble finding sense between the two — the woman who came to save his group against all odds, who vowed to fight the Night King alongside him even after she lost a dragon, and who defended the realm — with the massacre she did.

      And there are cases like this all the time in real life. The loved ones of criminals trying to make sense of how their loved one could do something like this.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Efi,

      Re: Stannis and kingsblood baby quote:

      Jon isn’t calling Stannis a monster here, he is having trouble believing Stannis would do this. Jon likewise has respect for Stannis based on Stannis’s actions for the Watch, that he fights for the realm, and has recognize the real enemy.

      And with Stannis, Jon doesn’t have personal feelings to contend with.

      Something I feel is also pertinent: Jon has given people second chances. The wildlings have a not-so-nice history when they come south of the Wall to raid villages but Jon is willing and wanting to make peace with them (even with outright villains such as the Weeper). Even with Janos Slynt, Jon gave him three chances to obey his order and Jon knew Janos Slynt was an atrocious person. And as most of us have, he has biases based on personal feelings. Jon hates the Boltons and ends up marching south when Ramsay sends him the Pink Letter. Ygritte has her own less-than-savory history but Jon still loves her so Jon will be willing to forgive much more for her sake than any Bolton ever.

      They should have kept that piece of dialog in. It would show that Jon could actually foresee what would happen, unlike Tyrion. Instead of Tyrion having this little speech in 8.6., it should have been Jon giving it.

      Even so, Jon could never have foreseen Dany refusing surrender would mean Dany going out of her way to burn everyone and everything (more on that in an upcoming post) — this was never Dany’s battle plan. At this point, Dany refusing surrender would look like her continuing on with the battle plan regardless — storming her way through the city to the people-filled Red Keep.

      Or Jon should have explicitly stated somewhere to somebody that he loved her; he loved her, he served her until the end and his case is a good example of what happens if you follow orders blindly, or despite your reservations, or because you love someone so much. Oh, I forgot, that line was also omitted in the editing.
      What did they do with Jon in the end? It doesn’t make sense, it absolutely doesn’t.

      While Jon wanted to avoid betraying Dany, I don’t think he was exactly blindly obedient. He did not participate in the massacre and tried to stop his men from doing so. He killed one of his own men to stop him from raping a woman. He objected to Dany’s orders for the execution of the Lannister prisoners. If Jon was blindly loyal, he’d be acting far more like Grey Worm.

      I see sense in Jon’s story, I think emotion impacting his decision-making is a common theme in his storyline (and in the storylines of others too). Jon wanted to believe in somebody he loved, he was willing to give her that second chance, and was hoping Dany wasn’t this person until the very last second when Dany, herself, told Jon she felt destruction was the only way and Jon was forced into a choice he did not want to make.

        Quote  Reply

    82. Efi,

      Also, what happens in the show is absolutely (for me) no proof about how this story will evolve in the books. One is not evidence for the other. If the show chose to show a “romance” (whatever it was), it doesn’t mean that this is what will be in the books.

      I didn’t say my beliefs that a romance would happen in the books was because it happened in the show. My beliefs are based on Alan Taylor’s comments sharing what GRRM told him about Jon and Dany, as well as some passages indicating it will maybe happen. It’s no guarantee, no, but Alan Tyalor’s comments do indicate it may be going this way.

      And as for the scripts, they are tampered. They’re public documents now, and as such they are made to tell the audience what to think. So if Jon loves Daenerys in the scripts, I didn’t see it anywhere in season 8, and I won’t believe tampered texts over my own eyes..

      It’s fine you feel that way but I don’t believe the scripts have been tampered with the intention of relaying certain messages. I think the scripts are just scripts they go into shooting with. In The Last Watch documentary, at the table read, Bryan Cogman reads out the script’s narration for Jon and Dany’s final scene in the throne room. He reads out the very same snippet that was included in the released shooting script for 707.

      As for love, I saw it but we’re going to see what we see.

      In Outlander, I don’t see much between Roger and Brianna but they’re a fictional, scripted couple so I believe it’s still love.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Efi,

      As I said before, I’d love to see Jon as a villain who doesn’t give a [email protected]@@ if he wants to get things done, as his deleted line “I don’t think she’s letting anyone surrender today” would indicate.

      I don’t believe that is what this line was trying to indicate: Jon wasn’t interested in just getting things done — he clearly gave a f!ck because he was stunned by the massacre, tried to hold back his own forces from participating, and objected to Dany’s actions (“Have you seen? Children! Little children, burned!”) and her executions.

      To continue what I was saying above, there is no reason for Jon to think that Dany refusing surrender would mean she was going to burn down an entire city without rhyme or reason, especially when such an action was unprecedented — and especially based on Jon’s experiences with Dany. That’s very different from refusing surrender, what Dany did went above and beyond. At the point before the battle, Dany refusing surrender would look more like Dany going for the Red Keep anyway, regardless of Cersei’s people shield or the path to get there.

      Jon has heard Dany speak of taking the Iron Throne, she’s talked specifically of rooting out Cersei and attacking her enemies in the Red Keep — but not burning the entire city down.

      Because taking the Red Keep would involve a battle in the city, it would result in civilian loss of life, which is why Tyrion (and Varys and Jon) didn’t want her to do a direct attack (at the same time, there really is no nice way to take the city, including a siege. It’s going to be brutal regardless). But that is quite different from Dany going out of her way to burn every street she could find — even those streets nowhere near the Red Keep.

      I think this is a matter of hindsight. We’re reading that scene after everything took place, after we’ve seen Dany refuse surrender and we saw what happened, rather than before.

      It’s kind of the same reasoning used by people who say Sansa predicted what Ramsay would do with Rickon and those who say Sansa knew Jon would be a goner (and claim she was banking on it, using Jon as bait for Ramsay and allowing her to seize power) when neither is true. Sansa predicted Ramsay wouldn’t let Rickon live and said Ramsay sets traps but she wasn’t predicting Ramsay would use Rickon as the trap itself to lure Jon into a hopeless situation — because she’s not a crystal ball. Sansa had low hopes for the battle but she wasn’t banking on Jon’s death to get her everything she wants.

      It’s the same idea here. Nobody predicted Dany would aimlessly burn the entire city down. Varys was afraid she’d go for the Red Keep filled with inhabitants to capacity. Tyrion didn’t want a war waged in a city full of people. Both scenarios are different from Dany deliberately going after the people and not the Red Keep or even Cersei.

      Since the show didn’t want to commit to clear-cut story lines, it appears I’ll have to wait for Martin’s book to grace me with some answers…

      I don’t think the show or the books was ever about the clear-cut. I know I’m repeating myself but I think this goes back to the matter of emotion and decisions, which is the very essence of “human heart in conflict with itself.”

        Quote  Reply

    84. Adrianacandle,

      Efi & Adrianacandle:

      Like the best of debates, I find myself reading each of your comments and agreeing with it… and then agreeing with the other’s reply.
      Now my head is about to explode. 🤯🤯🤯🤯
      In a good way, of course. 😋

        Quote  Reply

    85. Efi,

      Oh, one question: What did you mean that the scripts were “tampered [with?]”, e.g.:

      ”And as for the scripts, they are tampered. They’re public documents now, and as such they are made to tell the audience what to think…”

        Quote  Reply

    86. Efi:It would show that Jon could actually foresee what would happen, unlike Tyrion. Instead of Tyrion having this little speech in 8.6., it should have been Jon giving it.

      I think Tyrion has more reason to foresee Dany burning down the city, as I outlined above, it wouldn’t make sense for either to assume total democide would be Dany’s next step. I also don’t think it would make much sense to give Tyrion’s speech to Jon. Tyrion actually spent time with Dany in Essos, was the one who had that pre-battle conversation in the throne room with Dany in 805, and has more experience with reigning in Dany’s darker impulses. Meanwhile, though Jon has seen Dany want to attack the Red Keep to take the throne, knows she wants the throne as she feels it’s her birthright (but so did Stannis), and has seen indications of a more ruthless side (dragonfire executions — fire being something Stannis also used), he’s also seen Dany heed advice to avoid a direct attack on the Red Keep for the sake of civilian lives, he’s seen Dany flying out to rescue his group beyond the Wall, Dany vowing to the fight against the Night King after losing her dragon, and Dany using everything she has to defend the realm.

      Kind of like what happened with Stannis — and had this video been correct (a recontextualization of season 1 Night’s Watch scenes to feature a Jon x Sam x Tyrion x Jeor tortured romance, soft sexy sax version of GoT theme included!), I wouldn’t be surprised if Jon fell in love with him 😉

      (Sorry for posting in 5-pieces, I think the Lord of Light doesn’t like my long-windedness…)

        Quote  Reply

    87. Ten Bears: Now my head is about to explode. 🤯🤯🤯🤯
      In a good way, of course. 😋

      We were encouraged (nay, taught) to do this very thing at art school! (I did not succeed.)

        Quote  Reply

    88. Adrianacandle,

      Typo!

      *I think Tyrion has more reason to foresee Dany burning down the city *but, as I outlined above, it wouldn’t make sense for either to assume total democide would be Dany’s next step.

        Quote  Reply

    89. In my piecing together of my reply, I missed these pieces. I’m sorry 🙁 Part 6…

      Efi: Oh, I forgot, that line was also omitted in the editing.

      Well… quite a few lines were omitted in editing, including this bit:

      Jon [to Arya]: Wherever you go, I’m right there beside you.

      This bit:

      Dany: But many years later, I saw it. The real thing. [the throne]
      Jon: How?
      Dany: In a vision. The roof, the snow, the throne… (beat) It all looked exactly like this.

      And this bit:

      Tyrion: Just because winter’s over doesn’t mean it won’t come again.

      But I don’t think there is any significance to these ommissions. Just editing room casualties.

      The show simply showed the story that sold it best. But imo they couldn’t commit even to that (I wonder why, I really do).

      I haven’t seen any evidence for this assertion (particularly considering the way Jon and Dany’s storyline ended. If Dany was doomed to die and D&D were trying to sell the story they thought would sell best, why not send Arya to kill Dany instead of her own lover? A romance between Jon and Dany makes that ending even more gutting and hard for audiences to take.)

      And I think this goes into the subjective. Not all romance stories work for the same people, this divide is common in fiction (Robb and Talisa left me cold, for instance. I don’t care anything for Roger and Brianna from Outlander. I thought Gilmore Girl’s Dean and Rory had nothing between them ;D But all of these are still love stories regardless). But this doesn’t mean it’s a veritable fact the show didn’t commit to a romance between Jon and Dany, the cast and crew interviewed they were in love even before season 8 aired. But more so, if Jon/Dany is the precedent for the show not wanting to commit to a story, then I think the same would apply to many other relationships in season 8 because most suffered lack of development, writing problems, and puzzling occurrences. I mean, nobody even explores feelings on R+L=J beyond who has a claim on the Iron Throne and Dany and Missandei exchange one line in all of season 8. But I don’t think any of this was deliberate.

      As with just about everything in life (unless it’s math), we see what we see and what works for one viewer, doesn’t work for another.

        Quote  Reply

    90. “LIAM CUNNINGHAM THROWS SHADE AT BRONN!!!”

      Just kidding. I love Liam, so glad Davos survived to a presumably even riper old age. 😁 I mean, the Lannisters aren’t gone (Tyrion) nor are Targaryens (Jon), but for all intents and purposes I know what he means.

      I had issues with how they got to the ending, but the ending itself is fine. I don’t have to agree with how everything turns out, and my favourite characters don’t have to make it, for it to be a good ending. Otherwise Jorah and Sandor and Jaqen and Shireen would be there. 😊

        Quote  Reply

    91. Ten Bears: For sure. The way he was portrayed, as a detached automaton, shouted “weirdo” more than “wisdom.”

      Nothing in Bran’s characterization suggested wisdom. Nothing. D&D seemed to be focused on giving a ” gotcha” ending like two “frat” boys that had too much beer.

      Where the books are currently at, Bran is a child so it will take a bit of writing by GRRM to work Bran as king. However, since D&D has known for some time that Bran would be king their failure to include him and provide a storyline that highlighted him or even suggested some depth/character/wisdom/bravery was an idiotic misjudgment. Leaving him out of an entire season was a poor decision. Even in the few instances where he could have shown maturity and depth such as his interaction with Meera they missed those opportunities. Nothing was given to suggest that he was anything but a weirdo – a low functioning autistic.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Efi:
      Adrianacandle,

      No, it’s about the city. This is the dialog:

      “Tyrion: A million people live in that city.
      Jon: I know.
      Tyrion: If you hear the bells ring, they’ve surrendered. Call off your men.
      Jon: I don’t think she’s letting anyone surrender.
      Tyrion: we have to try. How many children are in there? She’s not her father.
      Jon nods, unconvinced”.

      The edited scene keeps Tyrion’s line “If you hear the bells ring” and then cuts to Jon’s barely noticeable nod.

      Note that the inconsistency is for laughs. It was Tyrion who notified Jon about the population of the city in 7.7, and it is Jon who speaks about the children before he kills her. Are they playing broken phone or something?
      If they were my students, they’d be graded below the base. I mean the fans know what’s been said and done in GoT much better than the writers, it’s ridiculous.

      It was ridiculous.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Jenny:
      mau,

      Thanks, that’s interesting, do you have a link?I’d like to read the whole thing.The only other person I saw predicting Bran was Gwendoline Christie, she must be some kind of genius to come up with that.Of course NCW told her that it didn’t make any sense lol.

      Gwen was joking – both her and NCW were joking the entire interview. She said the most nonsense thing she thought of…

        Quote  Reply

    94. Jenny:
      mau,

      Oh thanks, I will have a look at that.I’m not a fan of reddit, I find the layout so awkward to read but the discussion should be useful.

      There are many persons that write about the quality of GOT. It is, however, better to read the work of mainstream critics over the work of focused GOT fans.

      There are lots of decent television critics (look at any from any respected national newspaper) that provide expert dissections of GOT, including GOT8. Mau does not like them as they are almost uniformly scathing about GOT8. (I will acknowledge that appreciating a particular critic’s work is better if you read that critic over years and over many different types of TV shows over different types of genres.)

      That said, in the case of GOT reading many different critics will provide a comprehensive understanding of why GOT failed. They do an excellent job of exploring the failed end – mainly because the end was inconsistent with the character building and storytelling. I suggest you read Globe and Mail (Canada), New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, New Yorker (US) and BBC (UK). These persons have nothing personal at stake, they have watched GOT as a job and they have seen a lot of TV programs. They have nothing to win or lose from liking or hating GOT.

      Feedback from super fans is useful in the sense that everyone can express themselves, as we do. We are also fans sharing our views and their viewpoints may be read in the same way as my or your contribution. However, their work is not very valuable as critical contributions. I think as critical contributions the regular fans may be more useful than the superfans’ that are trying to secure and maintain a media platform. GOT8 has spurred a cottage industry of these types. Some are excellent and I have read some with great interest even when I disagree but their comments must be taken in context.

      I have an unfinished conversation on this board as to why I recommended the work of experienced TV critics but do not spend as much time with superfans. Let me put some of this here. I think Mau or another poster has recommended the work of the Sean (?), I think who is a superfan. My view is that many GOT superfans are steeped in GOT lore, however compared to established critics: (i) they do not have enough “breadth” of experience with quality TV, literature, and screenwriting to provide good contextual comparision; (ii) they are too passionate about GOT to have the emotional distance needed to evaluate; (iii) their work tends to be “attention-seeking” rather than thoughtful as they do not have a respected media platform including a good editor; (iv) they get rewards based on the stridency of their viewpoints meaning – upvoted based on people their position or long opposing posts from people that disagree; (v) some (not all!) do not have the educational base to lead in creating sensible opinions.

        Quote  Reply

    95. All I’m interested in is the wotw awards. Let’s do those and be done. At least maybe give us a date of when they begin?

        Quote  Reply

    96. Mango,

      I’m happy to read anything in this particular case, the fact that I am having to research it at all shows that the series failed to set up this plot, so critical analysis isn’t really what I’m after. Looking into it won’t change my opinion on the show, but it might help me to understand what they/GRRM are getting at. It was the same with Jaime (on a much smaller scale) I had to read interviews and watch behind the scenes video’s to follow it, Episode 4 nearly gave me whiplash. But there was enough there for me to go, yep Ok I get what you are trying to do, it makes sense in a show context, whereas Bran doesn’t.

      An interesting point made by the person mau quoted, is about Bran’s ‘hero’s journey’. In the books he will have to overcome whatever is in that cave, the shows ending is proof that he will. The tone of the scene was uplifting, Bran’s ascension is a victory. I don’t for one second believe Bran is actually evil, it’s a joke on my part because it was so badly set up that this interpretation makes more sense than the true meaning. In the books, Bran just has a long way to go before any of this happens.

      Bran gains these powers, he can control people, but when Hodor died, he learnt a lesson, he should give people autonomy. So basically he got powers, and realised that he shouldn’t use them. He also didn’t become King by conquest, so there’s that, and he now has all of the worlds wisdom at his disposal. I can see where GRRM might be going with this, though this is a massively simplified version. Was this set up in the show? Not really. Was it executed well? Hell no, it was poor, Bran hasn’t shown any great wisdom that I can remember, that should have been his glaringly obvious quality. That whole dragon pit scene blows my mind, in the book I imagine this will take chapters and chapters to organise, or there will be a civil war in 6 months time.

      Mango,

      Oh I don’t know, she gave a good attempt, love NCW’s reaction though, he went straight to Bran is evil lol.

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    97. D&D did a talk at the Austin film festival, and someone live tweeted if anyone is interested.
      https://twitter.com/ForArya/status/1188186578071556102

      For Ten Bears,

      ‘Dan is saying that he let the actors redefined the roles, esp Maisie and they began writing for the actors, it is like the actor moved into the “house” and redecorated. He said he learned about the characters from the actors’.

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    98. Jenny,

      Yeah, the point of that post was to try to understand what Benioff&Weiss/GRRM are getting at with king Bran. I don’t think it was done well.

      Bran the Wise would make things much easier. I like Bran the Broken as nickname, but when I say Bran the Wise I mean writing him as extremely wise and smart. Broken king for broken kingdom works really well for me.

      As I said I would split The Last of the Starks and The Iron Throne into 2 epsodes. The last episode would be events post Daenerys’ death, where they would spend more time on Bran’s election, the fact that they want to reject birth right and right of conquest, that they need a new story that will replace the story of the Iron Throne and fire and blood and Aegon the Conqueror. And to say what was written in the scripts, motivation for Edmure and Yara to vote for Bran.

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    99. mau,

      Yeah, I agree with all of this, I think they might have said at one point that robot Bran was a mistake, and they tried to pull back on it in S7 and S8, but after having him absent for a season it was quite damaging to our perception the character.

      Dorne and the Iron Islands are question marks for me as well, I would have expected them to secede, since they have been fighting for independence for years and years. A bit more to show why they chose to unite under Bran would have been good. Its funny because there are quite clear breaks in the two episodes, splitting them would have allowed for a clearer passage of time, something more effective than the length of Jon Snow’s beard lol.

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    100. Mango,

      We already read those reviews you recommended. Like western critics in general, they are focued on socio-political aspects of the story and not the writing itself. I don’t trust in objectivity of US critics. I mean look how US critics reviwed Joker. If they don’t like a director or a message of the story they will react negatively. They thought S8 was anti-feminist and anti-immigration story. And they gave great reviews to S6 and S7 because they thought it was a feminist story about the downfall of patriarchy.

      And when they follow a director on twitter and have a good personal relationship with them they will always give great reviews, like they do with Rian Johnson, because they like him as a person.

      But critics nominated GoT for Outstanding program of the year on TCA Awards so it’s not like everyone thinks the same.

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    101. Mango,

      Sean T Collins is established critic as well. He is not just some superfan. And majority of critics were GoT fans, they spent time on reddit and twitter talking about it, so I don’t see why it matters. Everyone was GoT fan, one way or another. It was the biggest show in the world.

      I also don’t see why would we value opinion of people who are writing reviews that much, when they can be biased just like the rest of us. Just look at reviews for Joker and The Last Jedi for example. Rian is their twitter buddy and Todd said some things that offended them.

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    102. Jenny,

      Iron Islands wanted to be independent. Dorne has never once expressed any desire to be independent throughout the course of the entire show. Not once.

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    103. And one more thing about the critics lol.

      When you read negative reviews that are not about socio-political aspects of the story, they all said that S8 needed more episodes, which is something a lot of us can agree. It’s not like that those who gave negative reviews said that S8 is some sort of unthinkable disaster. Even in those negative reviews they praise a lot of things about the last season. Again I’m speaking about negative reviews that are not focused on political side of things.

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    104. Young Dragon,

      Apologies, I am referring to Doran’s plot and the difficulty in conquering them in the first place. They wanted revenge and they wanted to rule the 7 Kingdoms, so it stands to reason that they might not be thrilled with these developments, I was thinking about the books when I included them.

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    105. I had a busy couple of days. So I couldn’t comment here. I read through the comments, but not really time to comment them all. I like AdrianaCandle’s comments. The way it’s written is just wonderful too read.

      As for the article itself. I have to agree partly with Liam, but his statement doesn’t contradict the critic season 8 got. He states that the ending is as it should be. That’s not what many critics saying (or fans who had issues with it). Most of them complain of the road to that ending, which GoT always was top notch in, the road to the end of an act. So Liam is not disagreeing with the critics, he just seem to fail the interpretation that the critics meant.

      Mango,
      I have to agree here, but only half. I agree with that super-fans who can’t distance themselves from the emotional invested that they cannot react objectively about the quality of the show. But that cuts both ways. It’s not only true for the fans who finds everything good the show gives, but also the fans who didn’t get what they got and are upset. (Dany is the villain and dies etc even when what I found that group is pretty small when it comes to the ones that didn’t like season 8, most were in the road to the end doesn’t make sense group)
      But I also think for a show like GoT a little invested is needed. Too objective watching can lead to not understanding the lore, or the connections some characters have together. Some critics fall into this category. So it’s best to just read the critic and see if they knew the lore. (I read a critical article a while back that called the Others the Wight Walkers which I found pretty silly)

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    106. kevin1989,

      And to be honest I think every season after S4 needed more episodes. I always found some things to be not developed enough. From Stannis killing his child to Jon dealing with his second life and so on. I disliked that they didn’t use Rickon and Osha more. That they didn’t made northern politics more compicated in S5 and S6. And so on. So for me those flaws (the show needed more time for things to work perfectly) were there for years. That’s why I don’t get this sudden outrage and those memes “thank you for 7 perfect seasons” after S8.

      I mean, those 7 seasons weren’t perfect. But I guess it helped me a lot that I don’t really have a favorite character. Stans and shippers are problem with every fandom. And since Daenerys is far more popular than Stannis, outrage over her downfall was louder, because those people didn’t reall care for Stannis. And I don’t see difference in writing with these two downfalls. I would even say Daenerys’ was written better and with more care.

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    107. Adrianacandle,

      Each time I try to rewatch GoT I keep finding more flaws than before, I mean scriptwise -visuals and battles and stuff like that don’t really bother me- but the story is so bad I really can’t believe that they willingly did that to such a great 7-season story. I made an attempt to rewatch all the episodes again, but stopped it after ep 3 (which was for me a good episode) and I can’t go further.

      Like, I watched that Tyrion-Jon dialog again yesterday to reply to your posts. So, Jon has a “disagreement” with Greyworm about the handling of the prisoners, then witnesses Hitler’s speech and understands among others “Winterfell”, then Arya shows up and he tells her “wait for me outside the city” where the poor viewer understands ok, he’s got sth important to do, now he’s probably going to kill her. Alas, the poor viewer then watches Jon (! of all people, who mercy-killed Mance and exiled Melisandre for the burning of Shireen under the threat of death penalty if she ever set foot in the vicinity of WF) actually say “ok, it was war, now it’s business as usual” and then he says sth along the lines of “you don’t have much choice if you’re in the battlefield” and then when Tyrion tells him that his mere existence is a threat to Daenerys, meaning that she’ll probably execute him at some point, he says that “it’s her right” to do so.
      So, me, the overthinker who’s accustomed to break down texts in their constituent tiny little bits, sees in this a culmination leading to Jon’s decision to kill her: the massacre of “babes on the breast” wasn’t enough, that she made him participate in this massacre (because, as you believe, he allegedly couodn’t foresee it) wasn’t enough, the threat on his own life wasn’t enough. So far no conflict. Jon knows that war is war, that’s what the script is telling us; he knows that a tyrant is a tyrant and has “rights” to execute people at will (such as the Tarlys, Varys, the Lannister prisoners, Tyrion, and even himself).
      Then Tyrion (probably desperate by his stupidity by now) pulls the sisters card, and that’s what does it for Jon. Which is actually a little puzzling, because Arya had already mentioned Sansa in relation with Dany and her world-dominance aspirations. Sansa would go down in flames just like the Tarlys did. [And then Jon would follow, and then everybody’s ashes would forever and ever try to make sense of this mess in the afterlife, lol].
      The entire Tyrion-Jon excursus would be a pointless parenthesis had it not shown us what motivates Jon, and that is his family (of course from a Doylist perspective Tyrion is D&D’s voice). Had they left the “I don’t think she’s letting anyone surrender today” line in, it would bind perfectly to his “business as usual” attitude. Had they left his “I love her” line in that discussion with Tyrion, it would have explained his POV even more and would have highlighted the “heart in conflict”. All this would actually explain well why he’s exiled at the end. He knew in advance, he could foresee, but he made a choice anyway because he loved her, and he’s punished for it.
      By removing these two lines they blurred his role next to Daenerys. Omitting the surrender line actually serves to make him look better for the audience -because, if he could foresee that it would be a massacre, that she wouldn’t take any prisoners, wtf was he doing there, being among the audience’s most favorite characters? Omitting the “I love her” line though, (even if in my perspective fits well with the general obscurity about his true feelings all through season 8) actually deprives him of motive and justification for being there, the entire “I love her and I support her till the end” thing. These omissions actually mess with Jon’s characterization, which is blurred beyond comprehension. Tbh Jon is a smudge thoughout season 8.

      You may say that he couldn’t really foresee. I say that he could have at least a rough estimate about what a dragon over a city could do, and that’s enough (because he’s seen what dragons do; he only needed to put people instead of Others in his head to figure it out). Depriving him of characterization and motive makes him look like an idiot. To go down South, watch her reduce Varys to ashes, lead armies to KL while Drogon flies above, witness the massacre from the inside as he says to Tyrion himself, and then to excuse it and even justify it because “she lost Missandei, she lost a dragon” is horribly idiotic.
      Tyrion’s at the 11th hour change of heart actually felt more convincing.

      Sidenote: do you have idea why was Jon missing from the throne scene in ep. 5? The best that I can think of is that Dany didn’t trust him enough and Jon himself didn’t care enough to be close to her. Normally as her commander, discussing the tactics of the imminent battle, Jon should have been there. It’s the discussion where Dany creepily declares that she’ll liberate the people by burning them to a crisp. Tyrion naively thinks that he has convinced her not to attack if she hears the bells, but the scene ends with a gutting feeling that Dany and Greyworm have their own understanding that it will all evolve into a full attack.

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    108. Young Dragon,

      Dorne is quasi-independent. Conquest failed, and they kept their prince. The only way to make Dorne go along with the previous regime was to marry into the Targaryens. The first Daenerys was a princess married in Dorne. That’s why Dorne is such a problem for the Lannisters; they messed with this understanding they had found with the Targaryens (by overthrowing Aerys and killing Rhaegar, Elia and the children). This is why Dorne in the books wants a Targaryen restoration.

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    109. mau,

      Excuse my ignorance. What was the deal with “The Last Jedi”? I have not seen it, and I won’t.
      For me, “The Force Awakens” blew so bad I’ll never see another Star Wars movie.

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    110. Efi,

      Huge difference betweem Mance and Melisandre is that Jon wasn’t in love with them. So comparing his reactions to their actions is pointless. Jon is trying to find excuses for Daenerys until the very end. That’s what people who are in love do.

      He didn’t think burning KL was “ok, it was war, now it’s business as usual”. He, just like Jaime in S7, thought well now she won and the war is over. Things will be better now. It again, makes sense that people who are in love, want to believe in those they love. Love is the death of duty after all. Only after her “they don’t get to choose” line, he can’t deny it anymore. Her wars will never stop. It will just go on and on until she rules the entire world.

      I don’t see what his “I love her” line would change. He said it many times during S8. It’s not like we don’t know his feelings towards her.

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    111. Ten Bears,

      People were upset by the treatment of Luke among other things, I think. What did you dislike about TFA? Depending on your answer, it might actually be worth watching the Last Jedi.

      Edit: I forgot, they were mad about the main villain as well.

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    112. Jenny:
      D&D did a talk at the Austin film festival….

      For Ten Bears,

      ‘Dan is saying that he let the actors redefined the roles, esp Maisie and they began writing for the actors, it is like the actor moved into the “house” and redecorated. He said he learned about the characters from the actors’.

      Thanks!
      I can’t say they made a bad decision by doing that – except for the wonky S7 Lobotomized LF vs. Arya Lecter vs. Dopey Sansa WF debacle. And eviscerating the Jon & Arya relationship…
      Sandor ❤️ Arya wrapped up nicely though: Pseudo-nasty S8e1 reunion bookended by heartrending S8e5 final farewell. RM & MW were both wonderful in that last scene.

      🗡👸🏻😥🐓🐓

        Quote  Reply

    113. Ten Bears,

      Well, it’s hard to summarize it. lol

      The Last Jedi showed that “The Force Awakens” mistery box is empty IMO.

      I just think that for a lot of people the way they treated OT characters was huge problem. The way Luke was written most of all.

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    114. mau,

      Well, we must consider that it is nearly impossible for a show like GoT with so many characters and storylines to focus on everything. They foreshadowed shireen death in S4E10 for example. I’m still amazed how they could finish this huge story.

      Well, we must consider that it is nearly impossible for a show like GoT with so many characters and storylines to focus on everything. They foreshadowed shireen death in S4E10 for example. I’m still amazed how they could finish this huge story.

      No other series has ever built such a deeply detailed and far-flung world, with a geography as varied as its social constructs, religions, languages. No other series has propelled such a massive yet impeccably individualized cast through such an impossibly intricate cat’s cradle of story lines that honestly should have collapsed long ago but didn’t.

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    115. The Light King,

      I don’t disagree. For me GoT is the best show ever made. The fact that we will talk about it, while no one really gives a fuck that much about Stranger Things, tells a lot about it. The ambition of GoT is unprecedented.

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    116. Thanks Jenny for the twitter link.

      “Writers and source material end up in divorce and there divorce was amicable”.
      [my interpretation: the original story was too binding; it’s not just about running out of source material; on the contrary, running out of it somehow liberated them, which is legit but thereafter they’re responsible for their own choices, beginning with Sansa’s marriage to Ramsay]

      They didn’t try to “understand the books’ elements”. “It was about the scenes we were trying to depict and the show was about power”.
      [eh, where is the power in season 8? It was all about Dany. There was nothing to counterbalance Dany’s grip of dragon power and her use of it -Jon was a yes man while his book role is to be her foil? But the “liberation” I pointed out above applies in his case too]

      That they “let the actors redefine their roles; it’s like the actor moved into the house and redecorated”.
      [I take this to mean sth more along the line of ST’s “intuitive” approach to Sansa in most cases rather than the actors actually deciding what their arc would be. It has been stated however that they went along with Emilia and gave her a sword in her final scene with Jorah in ep. 3 while initially there was none in the script and that they added the lines “when I was little and couldn’t count to 20” line to make her more sympathetic and human. Emilia likes Daenerys, but Daenerys was a cold-blooded murderer. The actors shouldn’t have a say in some things.]

      That they “wanted to remove as many fantasy elements as possible because they didn’t want to appeal to that type of fan”
      [hence no LSH; no Nissanissa; no resolve to the Lightbringer prophecy; no talking raven; you don’t want a talking raven go “king! king! corn!” every time it sees Jon Snow, lol lol lol]

      That they “loved the books but had to make them their own”
      [meaning that they had to make their own story; back to my first note and their “liberation” from the source material]

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    117. Efi,

      Okay, this is going to be another multi-parter! I pray the Lord of Light is good to me.

      Jon didn’t love Melisandre or believe she’d be good for the realm (kind of turns out she was though). If you reject the notion that Jon loved Dany, don’t buy what characters said on screen regarding this, or believe the scripts were tampered with, then no, I imagine this won’t make sense to you. Because love is why Jon is struggling so much with the idea of killing her.

      I think this is an exploration of what happens when a person you love and believed in becomes what you never imagined. It’s a shock, it’s unthinkable. Many people go into an initial state of denial (not just with this, but with catastrophe in general. On the morning of 9/11, I remember getting ready for school and seeing the first plane hit the north tower and I didn’t think that was real — or even when the south tower was hit. It seemed surreal, like a movie or that I was dreaming. It just didn’t seem possible. Recently, I was listening to some accounts of those who survived the towers and some would say they went through a phase of denying reality altogether and this allowed them to stay calm, that disassociation, this denial).

      It’s not like a binary protocol that follows a series of objective if/else statements to make a non-emotional determination. It’s an internal conflict, kind of a crisis. When people are confronted with a loved one committing something so heinous, especially when it counteracts other experiences they’ve had with them, it’s going to be a mental mess and often, there’s a desperate attempt to avoid the reality they don’t want to be true.

      And this has been Jon’s struggle throughout the series — separating personal feeling, making himself neutral, and there are many times he fails.

      And Jon’s not the only one who is impacted by personal feeling.

      Robert approved the grisly murder of two young children and sought to murder two more kids (Dany and Viserys) — and would have murdered Ned’s own nephew if Ned hadn’t hid him. Ned definitely, definitely objected and vehemently opposed this — but this didn’t make Ned believe Robert was a monster or stopped Ned from loving him.

      I have other examples! But I’m trying to structure my posts better 🙂

      There’s a book, “Far from the Tree,” by Andrew Solomon that goes over some of this. It includes a chapter that goes over the very messy emotions when a loved one becomes a criminal. It’s a good read. It gives insight into the inner turmoil and conflict, often mixed with love, that family members go through.

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    118. Efi,

      I think you have to take into account that that twitter link was written by a person who is not the biggest D&D fan. I think we should wait for a video of that panel to hear their words in context.

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    119. Efi,

      So, me, the overthinker who’s accustomed to break down texts in their constituent tiny little bits, sees in this a culmination leading to Jon’s decision to kill her: the massacre of “babes on the breast” wasn’t enough, that she made him participate in this massacre (because, as you believe, he allegedly couodn’t foresee it) wasn’t enough, the threat on his own life wasn’t enough. So far no conflict. Jon knows that war is war, that’s what the script is telling us; he knows that a tyrant is a tyrant and has “rights” to execute people at will (such as the Tarlys, Varys, the Lannister prisoners, Tyrion, and even himself).

      I addressed some of the “babes on the breast” thing above but I wanted to add Jon doesn’t think Stannis is a monster either. Stannis isn’t doing any of this to be cruel, but because he thinks it’s necessary. Dany believes she’s doing good with her actions. She’s not doing it to be a monster. Jon absolutely opposes both actions (child sacrifice, massacre) but he still saw the good in Stannis and wanted to believe there was hope for Dany (explained above).

      Sansa still loves Theon after Theon burned two boys to pose as Bran and Rickon. But Sansa now sees the good in Theon too.

      There absolutely is conflict here, even without those lines. Tyrion mentions Jon’s feelings for Dany and Jon himself reflects, “Love is the death of duty.” Jon is not okay at all with what happened — and that’s conflicting with his love for Dany. Just because something alone is not enough to make him give up faith in Dany doesn’t mean he’s not bothered by it. He clearly is. Making the decision to kill somebody he loves is something Jon has never, ever faced before. And it’s going to take time to get there.

      Jon doesn’t put much stock in his own life. He also is having trouble believing what Tyrion is telling him about Dany. Jon was going to speak to Dany about the Lannister prisoners anyway. I think the Tarlys were the right decision. Jon doesn’t like the use of dragonfire to execute people.

      And Jon also didn’t participate in the massacre. He’s complicit via his support for Dany but he did not participate. The Dothraki, Unsullied, and Northern armies participated.

      Then Tyrion (probably desperate by his stupidity by now) pulls the sisters card, and that’s what does it for Jon.

      No, Jon doesn’t make up his mind there because Jon still tries pleading with Dany to change her mind.

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    120. Efi,

      The entire Tyrion-Jon excursus would be a pointless parenthesis had it not shown us what motivates Jon, and that is his family (of course from a Doylist perspective Tyrion is D&D’s voice).

      That’s not the only thing that motivates Jon or Jon would have left the Watch much much earlier (when Ned was arrested, when Ned was beheaded, when his sisters were taken hostage, when he heard Bran had gone beyond the Wall, when Robb was slaughtered at the Red Wedding). And if family was the only thing Jon was concerned about, Jon could have asked Dany, “Okay, you won’t show mercy to the people. Please just leave my sisters alone,” but Jon doesn’t say this.

      He has spent nearly his entire arc defending the realms of humanity against threats and trying to save people, even when it involved personal loss. Tyrion brings this up too. While yes, I think Jon’s sisters were the final tipping point, in his final conversation with Dany, he’s also pleading on behalf of the people, not only Sansa and Arya, but total strangers.

      Had they left the “I don’t think she’s letting anyone surrender today” line in, it would bind perfectly to his “business as usual” attitude.

      This wasn’t business as usual for Jon. He was doubting Dany would accept surrender, not anticipating that she’d democide an entire city without even targeting the Red Keep. Jon vowed to help Dany take the throne in belief she’d make a good queen for all and still had faith in her as queen. He’s getting worried about seeing a more ruthless side to her but that doesn’t lead into deliberately going after the people she had said she came to save, the people she did help defend from the Others, rather than Cersei.

      As for exile, what Dany and her armies did wasn’t technically illegal under Westerosi law because there’s no international war council to hold her to a greater law. As the new queen, Dany made the rules. If it were illegal, the Northern armies would be arrested too. Jon’s crime, under Westerosi law, is queenslaying.

      because, if he could foresee that it would be a massacre, that she wouldn’t take any prisoners, wtf was he doing there, being among the audience’s most favorite characters?

      But how, based on Jon’s experiences with Dany, based on the plans she’s proposed, could Jon or anyone have foreseen Dany was going to massacre the entire city? Dany’s never wanted to do that. Dany has made choices to avoid civilian loss of life. How would that explain Jon looking utterly stunned by what happened? And walking around in a horrified daze? That’s not just refusing surrender, that’s just needless, aimless killing. How could Jon make that leap?

      You may say that he couldn’t really foresee. I say that he could have at least a rough estimate about what a dragon over a city could do, and that’s enough (because he’s seen what dragons do; he only needed to put people instead of Others in his head to figure it out).

      Dany has never, ever used her dragons to go after civilian populations before. She’s used them in battle as a weapon. She’s used them to defend the realm, as you referenced. That’s nothing at all like what Dany did in 805, nowhere close. This is akin to saying that since Jon knows what a sword can do and if somebody has a sword, they’ll turn into a wanton mass murderer who kills just because.

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    121. Efi,

      Depriving him of characterization and motive makes him look like an idiot. To go down South, watch her reduce Varys to ashes, lead armies to KL while Drogon flies above, witness the massacre from the inside as he says to Tyrion himself, and then to excuse it and even justify it because “she lost Missandei, she lost a dragon” is horribly idiotic.

      Jon probably does look like an idiot to some but he can’t see the future or be omniscient. That’s Bran’s territory. Jon pledged to help Dany take the throne because he viewed her as a queen who fought for the realm — and Dany followed through on her promise to defend the realm, she gave her all, along side Jon, to defeat the army of the dead.

      And again, Jon’s trying to find reason for why she — the same woman who gave all of her resources into defending Westeros — massacred the very people she tried to save. It doesn’t compute, it’s a mind f!ck. When people are confronted with like this, there’s a tendency to try and search for sense rather than accepting absurdity right away and just instantly going, “Okay, well, she’s a monster. Time for her to die,” as if she’s some unknown stranger or straight-up enemy to him.

      do you have idea why was Jon missing from the throne scene in ep. 5? The best that I can think of is that Dany didn’t trust him enough and Jon himself didn’t care enough to be close to her.

      I’d imagine Jon is prepping his troops for the new battle plan. The scene starts up in the middle of a conversation while Tyrion is urging Dany to not to wage war in the city. I don’t think Jon’s going to knowingly miss out on a war council just because he’s having problems with the queen. As for Dany, she still trusted Jon to be alone with her both before and after.

      It’s the discussion where Dany creepily declares that she’ll liberate the people by burning them to a crisp.

      That came in her victory speech. Tyrion’s urging her not to wage a battle in the city for fear of civilian life being lost. Dany says Cersei is using mercy against her. Tyrion comes up with the bells-surrender plan.

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    122. mau,

      “Huge difference betweem Mance and Melisandre is that Jon wasn’t in love with them. So comparing his reactions to their actions is pointless.”

      These stories are preparing what’s coming. It’s a kind of “foreshadow” and justification inside the narrative itself for what Jon will do next. This is much more true for the books, but it works in GoT too. However, as per the tweets (if they reproduce what D&D said instead of giving just interpretations) they didn’t care much for the source material, or for its elements. Hence what they did with Jon justifying mass murder. Book Jon would never justify the burning of children; unless he’s meant as one of the villains. But as I said before, the show cannot serve as indication for the books, and the tweets point to that too.

      “He, just like Jaime in S7, thought well now she won and the war is over.”

      Which part of that does not fit in with “business as usual”? He thought that the war is over, and that the mass murder was of no consequence for the future; they’d return to some type of normality only Daenerys was too intoxicated with murdering people to just stay still.

      “I don’t see what his “I love her” line would change. He said it many times during S8. It’s not like we don’t know his feelings towards her.”

      You’re absolutely 100% wrong. Jon never once said either to Daenerys or to anybody else that he loves her. Not once.
      In fact, his script lines in ep.1/6 that he does love her were deliberately omitted in the final editing. We ended up seeing everybody else point out that he does love her (Sansa, Tyrion, Varys), but Jon doesn’t say it once.
      So this was not by chance. It has to mean something. Perhaps it doesn’t really have anything to do with Jon’s feelings for her; perhaps they chose to omit those lines because they’d underscore the trope “male lover kills female lover” more (meaning it’s a Doylist decision). Perhaps it’s more due to the audience’s reception of this story rather than anything else.

      I don’t know. They did it. Framing, filming and KH’s acting didn’t convince me that Jon Snow was ever in love with Daenerys so removing those lines in the end only enhances my perspective that he wasn’t.

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    123. kevin1989: I agree with that super-fans who can’t distance themselves from the emotional invested that they cannot react objectively about the quality of the show. But that cuts both ways. It’s not only true for the fans who finds everything good the show gives, but also the fans who didn’t get what they got and are upset. (Dany is the villain and dies etc even when what I found that group is pretty small when it comes to the ones that didn’t like season 8, most were in the road to the end doesn’t make sense group)
      But I also think for a show like GoT a little invested is needed. Too objective watching can lead to not understanding the lore, or the connections some characters have together. Some critics fall into this category.

      I agree. You, mau, and Mango have all made good points and I think this is partly why this is a difficult thing to suss out. Because to really be motivated to know the show and all its lore, you need to be invested. At the same time, getting invested risks compromising neutrality and this can lead to rooting for certain characters over others based on preferences that start to form.

      So I realize I didn’t add much here but I’ve been following this conversation with interest 🙂 Fandom is a strange, strange thing and I’ve seen more and more of that since season 8 aired and knowing I’m a part of all that. I kind of think it’d make a good study…

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    124. Not going to lie I hate the way some of the actors seemingly are forced to “defend the show”. Glad Liam calls it out realistically though even if S8 had faults it was never going to please everyone and there was always going to be a limit to how much could make the final cut.

      By the way anyone see the Q&A David and Dan just did which is on twitter? Some good stuff in there about them basically winging the initial pitch to HBO, how they wanted to cut a lot of the fantasy from the show at the start, how they had an amicable divorce from GRRM when they ran out of source material from him, how they invested ten years and the toll it took on their fantasties, one of them also went on line and was upset with the fan reaction to S8.

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    125. Efi: You’re absolutely 100% wrong. Jon never once said either to Daenerys or to anybody else that he loves her. Not once.

      He did, in episode 805.

      Jon also never says he loves his siblings…

      Hence what they did with Jon justifying mass murder. Book Jon would never justify the burning of children; unless he’s meant as one of the villains. But as I said before, the show cannot serve as indication for the books, and the tweets point to that too.

      Jon will always hate the burning of children but if somebody like Arya did it, I’m sure Jon would be looking to find reason in this action as well. He also doesn’t think Stannis is a monster. Davos still follows Stannis and knows Stannis was willing to burn Edric. But anyway, I already explained my feelings on this enough 🙂

      Which part of that does not fit in with “business as usual”? He thought that the war is over, and that the mass murder was of no consequence for the future; they’d return to some type of normality only Daenerys was too intoxicated with murdering people to just stay still.

      “Business as usual” implies Jon is okay with what Dany did when he’s not. Yeah, he’s wanting to believe the war is done — but not because he’s fine with Dany’s actions, because he doesn’t want believe it’ll keep on happening, because he’s having difficulties coming to terms with what Dany did, and because he doesn’t want to kill her.

      Framing, filming and KH’s acting didn’t convince me that Jon Snow was ever in love with Daenerys so removing those lines in the end only enhances my perspective that he wasn’t.

      But what about the other lines that were removed?

      Framing/filming — sure, that’s all interpretation. There are people who think there was romance happing between Jon and Sansa, which I could never see.

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    126. the ending was fine. the show couldnt go on forever. The outrage is because its over.
      dany was a targaryan she had 3 dragons, westeros was a terrible place. her family were inbred’s her father was crazy. you were expecting her to be goodie goodie!!!!

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    127. Jenny:
      Ten Bears,

      People were upset by the treatment of Luke among other things, I think.What did you dislike about TFA?Depending on your answer, it might actually be worth watching the Last Jedi.

      “The Force Awakens” was entirely derivative of the original Star Wars movie. It was like watching a re-tooled version of the very same movie I’d already seen decades ago:

      • Young hero riding hover scooter
      on arid planet? ✔️
      • “Cute” chirping little robot [R2D2 2.0]? ✔️
      • Death Star? ✔️
      • Holographic video message hidden in
      chirping little robot? ✔️
      • Anakin ➡️Darth Vader-style Skywalker scion
      heel turn? ✔️
      • (Interminably long) Light saber duel? ✔️
      • Stormtroopers exterminating folks in hero’s/heroine’s village? ✔️
      … and so on.

      Plus:
      • The whole big “secret” about where is Luke hiding out? was lame.
      • Lena Dunham’s boyfriend in “Girls” (Adam Driver) as baddie Kylo Ren didn’t do it for me.
      • The big patricide surprise? Ugh. Way to butcher the Leia & Han romance from the first movie by giving them an inexplicably homicidal emo son. Dime-store “daddy issues” from the Stock Psychology drawer of the Hollywood Cliche Bin.
      • For cryin’ out loud, don’t drag 70+ year-old Harrison Ford back into the SW universe after all these years just to have Han Solo estranged from Leia, and killed by their goofball son. Cheap, Mark Mylod Braavos-style contrived “drama” at the expense of SW’s legacy; completely unnecessary dilution of the romance at the heart of the SW lore.
      • And Carrie Fisher’s character didn’t fare much better. [I’ve read grumblings that she somehow floats through space without suffocating in one of the recent movies.] Couples don’t have to be separated or divorced to create dramatic “tension.” Another cheap cliche.

      • And the worst (for me): The infinitesimal odds of the young heroes just happening to land on the one planet in all the universe and walking into the one inn in all the cities in all the world that just so happened to have Luke’s lightsaber in a trunk in the basement?*

      * Cue voice of Humphrey Bogart in “Casablanca”: “Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgUBjmL86_k

      • Turning Brienne of Tarth – I mean Captain Phasm – into a spineless idiot: If you’re a trusted officer in the Bad Guy Brigade, and you’re taken by surprise by a couple of rebels who demand at gun point that you give them access to the ENTIRE Bad Guy installation…you tell them: “Nope. Go ahead and shoot me.”
      You DON’T immediately fold like a cheap suit, yield to their demands, and thereby sell out tens of thousands of your own comrades.
      (Geez. Even the Nakatome executive in “Die Hard” told Hans Gruber “You’ll have to shoot me” instead of giving up the codes to the company safe. Assassins in the Bourne movies – and psychos in real life – readily commit suicide rather than risk being captured alive. But a cool second-tier bad guy/woman with a cool name like Captain Phasm… just goes (unspoken) “Sure. Here are the keys to the place so you can blow everything up and kill all of us.”)
      Sorry. Gwendoline Christie deserved better.

      • Wait… Maybe I missed something. Why was Luke’s location (or clues to it?) secreted in a holographic video in an R2 2.0 unit? And who cares where he is? And if he wanted to be left alone (?), what’s his hideaway’s location doing in a video inside a random robot?
      And for that matter, why dredge up and re-use the Obiwan Kenobi holographic video information-cache device from the original? It was such a blatant retread for no good reason. If you don’t have new ideas, why bother making another SW movie – other than to rip off the fans by ripping off scenes from the original movie? (Homages are one thing; recyclings are another. I found it insulting.)

      • For all that hyped up “Where is Luke! We gotta find Luke!” (not sure why), he appears for a few seconds at the end of the movie, and doesn’t say anything to Rey when she hands him his old light saber that she got from the innkeeper from that trunk in the restaurant basement in the immersion-destroying scene described supra.

      • I’m sure there were more aspects of “The Force Awakens” that made my right foot throb in pain (my built-in Bad Movie Barometer). I didn’t really feel like rewatching the movie or ruminating about it too much after the credits rolled and I said to myself: “Well that sucked.

      HOWEVER, I really did like Daisy Ridley as Rey. She was excellent.

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    128. Efi,

      I don’t understand what you want to say. Jon was in love with Daenerys and when you are in love with someone you will always be blind to their flaws until it’s too late. It’s not that deep. He desperately wants to believe t until the very end.

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    129. mau: I don’t remember if Jon ever said he loved Ygritte. He said it in that scene with Melisandre in S5, but I don’t remember if he told Ygritte herself.

      He did — in 310, if I’m right? It’s when Ygritte catches up to Jon, after Jon flees the wildlings, and Ygritte has an arrow pointed at his head! 🙂

      In the books, I don’t think he ever tells her. It’s in his thoughts that he does but he doesn’t verbalize it to anyone.

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    130. mau:
      Adrianacandle,

      I don’t remember if Jon ever said he loved Ygritte. He said it in that scene with Melisandre in S5, but I don’t remember if he told Ygritte herself.

      He sure did. When Ygritte tracked down Jon and confronted him after he ran away (I think he’d stopped to get a drink of water and turned around to see Ygritte with her bow and arrow aimed at him?); he started whining about how he had to go home; and at one point she retorted “You know nothing, Jon Snow.”

      He said something like: “I know some things. I know I love you.”

      P.S. In addition to admitting to Melisandre that he (still) loved Ygritte even though she was dead [putting a damper on Mel’s lap dance seduction ritual], Jon also implicitly admitted it to Tormund when Tormund asked Jon to bury Ygritte in “the true north” or something like that.

      PPS: Jon ❤️ Ygritte = Tragic romance done right. For me at least, Jon x Dany was missing those emotional ingredients, or at least enough interpersonal scenes (and playful banter) to establish that emotional connection, such that Dany’s death and Jon’s decision to kill her lacked the tragic, romantic resonance of Ygritte dying in Jon’s arms.

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    131. Ten Bears: He sure did. When Ygritte tracked down Jon and confronted him after he ran away (I think he’d stopped to get a drink of water and turned around to see Ygritte with her bow and arrow aimed at him?); he started whining about how he had to go home; and at one point she retorted “You know nothing, Jon Snow.”

      He said something like: “I know some things. I know I love you.”

      P.S. In addition to admitting to Melisandre that he (still) loved Ygritte even though she was dead [putting a damper on Mel’s lap dance seduction ritual], Jon also implicitly admitted it to Tormund when Tormund asked Jon to bury Ygritte in “the true north” or something like that.

      PPS: Jon Ygritte = Tragic romance done right. For me at least, Jon x Dany was missing those emotional ingredients, or at least enough interpersonal scenes (and playful banter) to establish that emotional connection, such that Dany’s death and Jon’s decision to kill her lacked the tragic, romantic resonance of Ygritte dying in Jon’s arms.

      Lots to agree with here!

      Yet a lot of the ending rests on us believing this Jon-Daenerys hook-up was “the greatest” love story. It did not work even as the greatest love story for Jon, who had a better-written love story with Ygritte- so the great stabbing lacked the power it should have had.

      How could a TV show go so wrong? Almost nothing worked…Arya was a bright(ish!) spot – but besides that, yikes.

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    132. Ten Bears: PPS: Jon ❤️ Ygritte = Tragic romance done right. For me at least, Jon x Dany was missing those emotional ingredients, or at least enough interpersonal scenes (and playful banter) to establish that emotional connection, such that Dany’s death and Jon’s decision to kill her lacked the tragic, romantic resonance of Ygritte dying in Jon’s arms.

      I feel this is a problem across the board with season 8. Jon/Dany could have really used more time to develop those more “playful” aspects (if Dany and Jon can be playful — Ygritte was a playful personality 😉 ) before it jumped right away into crisis mode but I did feel their relationship’s tragic culmination.

      We just didn’t get a great amount of relationship development for many of the characters in season 8, not the kind we got in earlier seasons. But I think this was a casualty of time limitations. What I was really looking forward to was Jon/Arya but I don’t even think Jon knows Arya is a faceless assassin. And he’s never even seen her fight…

      Ten Bears: “…I know I love you.”

      Yes!!

      Also, excellent timing per usual, Jon. Wait until she’s got a weapon pointed at your face to finally say it ;D

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    133. I read what Benioff and Weiss had to say at the film festival they attended. I’m still on the fence about whether or not it is real. Because…their answers are…wow. There’s no way some of that can be real.

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    134. Since they dropped “incest truth bomb” during their first love scene I think intention from writers was to make audience feel uncomfortable about Dany and Jon’s relationship since beginning. Otherwise why put incest thing there? It’s like they didn’t want people to (kinda) forget about it, even for a moment.

      They wanted this feeling that there is something wrong with their relationship.

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    135. mau:
      Efi,

      I don’t understand what you want to say. Jon was in love with Daenerys and when you are in love with someone you will always be blind to their flaws until it’s too late. It’s not that deep. He desperately wants to believe t until the very end.

      I guess it’s a matter of perception. I just never bought into Jon being “in love with” Dany. I assume it was implied; I just never saw it on screen. Even their first coupling was a wordless knock on the door… then cut to the two of them rutting like two college kids after a kegger.

      The cornball scene of bedridden, neutered Jon giving up his crown for no reason didn’t illustrate (for me) that Jon was “in love” with Dany. It just illustrated to me that hypothermia must’ve addled his brain. He sounded like a doofus, instead of the proud, confident, clear-thinking King who’d explained to Dany in early S7 why he could not and would not accede to her demands to “bend the knee.”

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    136. Efi:
      Thanks Jenny for the twitter link.

      “Writers and source material end up in divorce and there divorce was amicable”.
      [my interpretation: the original story was too binding; it’s not just about running out of source material; on the contrary, running out of it somehow liberated them, which is legit but thereafter they’re responsible for their own choices, beginning with Sansa’s marriage to Ramsay]

      They didn’t try to “understand the books’ elements”. “It was about the scenes we were trying to depict and the show was about power”.
      [eh, where is the power in season 8? It was all about Dany. There was nothing to counterbalance Dany’s grip of dragon power and her use of it -Jon was a yes man while his book role is to be her foil? But the “liberation” I pointed out above applies in his case too]

      That they “let the actors redefine their roles; it’s like the actor moved into the house and redecorated”.
      [I take this to mean sth more along the line of ST’s “intuitive” approach to Sansa in most cases rather than the actors actually deciding what their arc would be. It has been stated however that they went along with Emilia and gave her a sword in her final scene with Jorah in ep. 3 while initially there was none in the script and that they added the lines “when I was little and couldn’t count to 20” line to make her more sympathetic and human. Emilia likes Daenerys, but Daenerys was a cold-blooded murderer. The actors shouldn’t have a say in some things.]

      That they “wanted to remove as many fantasy elements as possible because they didn’t want to appeal to that type of fan”
      [hence no LSH; no Nissanissa; no resolve to the Lightbringer prophecy; no talking raven; you don’t want a talking raven go “king! king! corn!” every time it sees Jon Snow, lol lol lol]

      That they “loved the books but had to make them their own”
      [meaning that they had to make their own story; back to my first note and their “liberation” from the source material]

      hahhahhhaaahhhaaa! Liberation from the source material?

      Egocentric idiots. So they made up that nonsense themselves? Hacks!

      Went online? They did not have to go online – every (?) newspaper had a scathing review. Even the gentle Esquire had to say something.

      Ok, maybe the person tweeting does not like them so let us see other reports of the interview.

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    137. mau: So it was once, like with Dany. It’s like poetry, it rhymes.

      Yeah, that’s how I feel and Jon doesn’t really tend to say it a lot. Like Ned.

      I kind of feel Dany may be a continuation of Ygritte. In the books, he finds Ygritte with an arrow through her heart. She’s still alive, they have their tragic good-bye, but in his dreams, Jon is haunted by the notion that he killed her (dreaming it’s his own arrow in her heart) and if there’s Jon/Dany in the books and Jon kills Dany by his own hand… well… it is his arrow in her heart (or dagger).

      Since they dropped “incest truth bomb” during their first love scene I think intention from writers was to make audience feel uncomfortable about Dany and Jon’s relationship since beginning. Otherwise why put incest thing there? It’s like they didn’t want people to (kinda) forget about it, even for a moment.

      They wanted this feeling that there is something wrong with their relationship.

      I do think the writers wanted to make us feel like this relationship will be heading for trouble, one way or another. Kind of like with Robb/Talisa (because Robb broke his oath and there’s no way Frey was going to take that). Even with Jon/Ygritte. He’s undercover. She’s a wildling. There’s no way they can be together unless Jon decides he’s going to truly defect, which… no.

      So it often feels like the other shoe is about to drop.

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    138. Ten Bears,

      Love is a stange thing. I don’t think people in real life need some deep conversations or some reason to be in love. They just are. In movies and shows it depends on chemistry of actors.

      And since there are so many (very annoying) Jonaerys stans I guess a lot of people bought it.

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    139. Ten Bears: (Okay, I admit I’m posting this because it’s one of my favorite scenes: “Oh, a spider! Save me, Jon Snow!…”)

      That’s my favourite scene of them! 🙂

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    140. mau: And since there are so many (very annoying) Jonaerys stans I guess a lot of people bought it.

      I’ve seen some insist that D&D switched out Jon and Dany’s last scene for Jaime and Cersei’s, meaning Jaime is meant to kill Cersei. Which … I don’t think so…

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    141. mau: I think it’s even more than with Robb and Talisa. Their love scenes were pure love scenes. And here you have incest truth bomb and Tyrion looking concerned.

      That’s true. It was from the first and I think it was meant to signal troubled waters ahead, as was stated in the Inside the Episode for 707. And that Jon and Dany know that their union is going to cause issues.

      But I wish we got some more time in the interim, the in-between. I liked their some of their quieter moments, like the talk they had at the Dragonpit.

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    142. Many Jon&Daenerys fans were Jon&Daenerys fans before these two met.

      It was clear that these two Targs getting together was a path to a Targ restoration. (plus they were two good looking people.) There are many fans of the Targ family lore as GRRM spends lots of time here.

      That said many were disappointed with the handling of the romance in Season 7 and hoped season 8 would include a more romantic depiction of this relationship. It did not.

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    143. Ten Bears,

      I think that happened even before the hypothermia set in — when Dany arrived with her dragons and Jon was pushing past the guy who would ultimately be his endgame (Tormund) to get to her, that was it.

      But my ultimate ship was Jon x Cersei. What I would have given…

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    144. Mango: That said many were disappointed with the handling of the romance in Season 7 and hoped season 8 would include a more romantic depiction of this relationship. It did not.

      I felt season 8 disappointed me with nearly all of the character relationships. Although, I liked Arya and the Hound.

      I was ok with how they did Jon/Dany in season 7 but then again, I generally enjoyed season 7. I was perplexed by Sansa and Arya’s relationship in season 7. They had that lovely moment at the end and I knew Arya would be wary of Sansa, which is natural, I think? Old feelings linger but I never thought it’d get to outright threats and accusations. I felt afraid for Sansa, which I didn’t like because this was Arya and Sansa’s the first family Arya has seen since…. season 1….

      But they did have a nice moment at the end there 🙂

      I feel most of the romantic relationships crashed and burned. Brienne/Jaime was a main draw for me in ASOS and knowing how it ends, brutal :/ I always felt Brienne was like the perfect foil for Cersei, her exact opposite, so I really liked the dynamic she had with Jaime.

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    145. Ten Bears,

      When reading this, I am fondly remembering the many conversations I’ve had with my brother about Christopher Nolan films. It normally involves me sitting in silence while he rants about what a terrible story teller he is, I’ll throw in the occasional ‘yes… but.. but…’. It’s very funny.

      Part of what you say makes me think you should watch TLJ, if nothing else, it strays from the usual SW template (this made people mad). The rest (particularly the bit about the original trio) makes me think you should run far far away from it (this also made people mad).

      Personally, I think Kylo and Rey are great and they have a great story line and connection, they are the most interesting characters. I thought TLJ was leading towards something and then it just didn’t happen, but it looks like the new movie will follow through with it.

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    146. RE: Jon/Dany. Never bought it, didn’t care. When she dropped the ‘I haven’t given you permission to leave’ line I groaned, that was so unearned. Their ‘romance’ made sense because of their past experiences, we did the leg work, their actual interactions while getting to know one another fell flat as a pancake. The first meeting was the only scene worth bothering with. I really shouldn’t talk about S7…

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    147. Adrianacandle,

      I think Jaime is at the very least going to cause her death, I think he is the valonqar, but I don’t think he will be able to live with it, so bye bye Jaime. Never had any hopes for him getting a happy ending. Part of me thinks it might be a mercy kill as she is dying already, a more poetic interpretation rather than someone literally strangling her. My theory is that they ditched it because it would have been 2 men killing their lovers back to back. It wouldn’t have worked, they will die much earlier in the books. That or we go down the ‘any little brother counts’ hello Euron Greyjoy.

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    148. So… I have a comment in moderation and if my username comes up ‘I felt Adrianacandle,’ this is a mistake! I accidentally pressed ‘tab’, bringing me to the ‘Name’ box when I started typing and did not catch it.

      Jeeeeeze T_____T Way to creepify my own name…

      Jenny: I think Jaime is at the very least going to cause her death, I think he is the valonqar, but I don’t think he will be able to live with it, so bye bye Jaime. Never had any hopes for him getting a happy ending. Part of me thinks it might be a mercy kill as she is dying already, a more poetic interpretation rather than someone literally strangling her. My theory is that they ditched it because it would have been 2 men killing their lovers back to back. It wouldn’t have worked, they will die much earlier in the books. That or we go down the ‘any little brother counts’ hello Euron Greyjoy.

      That is a lot of lover-killing-lover stuff…. so I’m hoping he just causes her death rather than does it by his own hand.

      But you’re right, it would fulfill Valonqar.

      No, I never thought Jaime was getting a happy ending. I think he has a sad fate too.

      I think the broad strokes of season 8 is approximately what we’re getting but some events or how they come about might be a different, more fleshed out.

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    149. Adrianacandle,

      Therein lies the rub.

      For the ending delivered you needed to write a different story. Two possible options to get the “fleshing out” (i) redraft the story, not necessarily from the beginning – but for several seasons back, perhaps from season 5; OR (ii) evolve the story – spending additional seasons delivering a story that leads to that ending.

      This applies to almost every character or storyline.

      For

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    150. Mango: Two possible options to get the “fleshing out” (i) redraft the story, not necessarily from the beginning – but for several seasons back, perhaps from season 5; OR (ii) evolve the story – spending additional seasons delivering a story that leads to that ending.

      This applies to almost every character or storyline.

      Yeah, I’d agree. I think there needed to be more set-up in one direction or another — whether earlier or more seasons.

      I’d opt for a season or two more but I don’t know if that would have been feasible for the cast & crew.

      If it’s done earlier, starting around season 5, but would this compromise the storylines already happening at this point?

      But for a story this big… I think it needed more set up to get to the ending and, as you said, for all of the characters and storylines.

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    151. mau: I agree about more time. And not only with Daenerys and Jon, but with everyone.

      Absolutely. Even if we just got two 10-episode seasons, I think that would have made a difference :/ Not as much as another season or two, but just more time to develop the quieter, more character-based moments in between the big events.

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    152. Jenny,

      Ray is really bland protagonist and her motivation makes no sense in TLJ. Why she even wants to “save” Kylo Ren? It’s just poor man’s version of Luke and Vader’s relationship. She wants to save him because the plot says so, there is no other explanation.

      And what is even her arc in TLJ? What are her motivations? Her dreams? Her struggles? She just does things because she is main character and it is expected from her, but there is no real reason for anything she does.

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    153. Adrianacandle,

      I really don’t think we needed 2 more seasons. It is too much. You don’t need to turn the show into AFFC for things to work.

      The structure of the last seasons is just different because they had fewer locations and less episodes that lasted longer. So it wasn’t 10 storylines anymore, but one or two. That completely changed the feel of the story.

      Also, did you know that almost 40% of the entire screentime Daenerys, Tyrion and Jon had in the show was in the last two seasons? So it’s not like they didn’t get a lot of screentime. It was just structured differently. Instead of 5 minutes per episode they were now getting at least 15. Often much more.

      It was different type of storytelling. More focused. They were able to sometimes give Daenerys 20 minutes per episode. In the past she would get that in like 3 or even 4 episodedes. In S6 she had like less than 40 minutes of screentime. In the last of the Starks she had like 30 minutes. So it was almost the amount of screentime she gad in entire season 6.

      As I said completely different structure.

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    154. mau,

      True, but they were also having to cover quite a bit more in a smaller window of time, even with more screentime. Storylines prior to season 6 went at a slower pace. Even though season 6 was quickened, it went at a slower pace (it took her eight episodes to return to Meereen). Characters took time to journey to various places during which they talked, relationships slowly developed and were explored, it felt like there was more breathing room in between the big moments.

      So maybe not quite an extra two seasons but just more time to allow for those same kind of character moments.

        Quote  Reply

    155. Adrianacandle,

      I would’ve split 705, 804 and 806 into 2 episodes.

      I think that would make last two seasons (almost) perfect for me. I don’t think there was really need for like two more seasons. If we got 3 more episodes in the last 2 seasons that were like 70-80 minutes long that would be perfect balance that would not turn the show into slow-paced boring slog. The ending should be fast paced and I don’t think it shoud be compared to older seasons. But I think in some ways it was too fast in the second parts of both S7 and S8.

      I don’t know if number of episodes was pure creative choice or the realities of production were the reason. Maybe even both. I guess we will never know. Or maybe we will 10 years from now.

        Quote  Reply

    156. mau,

      I actually used to complain about how slow the show could go sometimes and wished it would kick it up a notch ^^;;; Jeeze, talk be careful what you wish for 🙂

      I think season 6 was the sweet spot for me!

      Yeah, you have some nice suggestions. I’d be up for any scenario in which we got more time — but I suppose it’s a moot point now since the show’s all done.

      I’d really like to know where the episode numbers came from too– that’s something I’ve been curious about for a while now. Maybe it will be revealed one day… maybe, as you said, in 10 years…

        Quote  Reply

    157. mau:
      Ten Bears,

      Love is a stange thing. I don’t think people in real life need some deep conversations or some reason to be in love. They just are. In movies and shows it depends on chemistry of actors….

      • Yes, love is strange. (Hey, isn’t that a song title?)
      • Whether in real life people need some “deep conversations or some reason to be in love” would be fodder for interesting discussion and debate.
      • Personally, I’ve found that more often than not, “love at first sight” and “instant attraction” are precursors to short-term infatuation. A witty quip, an intelligent conversation, or an impressive accomplishment can go a long way towards making someone beautiful and irresistible.
      What do I know??? Everyone’s different. There’s no magic formula.
      • In movies and shows I agree: It generally depends on the chemistry of the actors, although some are better at “selling” romantic connections.

      I suppose it’s a bit unfair to compare Jon & Ygritte to Jon & Dany because after all, Kit H. and Rose L. were really falling in love in real life while their characters were on the show. 😍

      (Potential “how I met your mother” story down the road… Kit H: “I was supposed to execute her, but I chickened out.
      Rose L: Your daddy put a sword to my neck and was about to chop off my head.”)

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    158. mau,

      Well, just from what you wrote I’m glad I didn’t bother to see “The Last Jedi.”
      Rey…. saving Kylo Ren???? Huh? The psycho who killed his daddy?

        Quote  Reply

    159. Ten Bears,

      The whole movie feels like pseudo intellectual nothing.

      The movie thinks it’s much deeper than it really is. And the worst thing – it’s really boring and with The Rise of Skywalker leaks it feels like every major plot point will be retconned after all. So it’s complete waste of time.

        Quote  Reply

    160. mau,

      I wrote a really long post, and it didn’t post! *cries* I’m going to have to split it up so bear with me.

      This is the way I see it, and please be kind, I have never written about this in my life.

      Rey and Kylo recognise themselves in each other, they are both very very lonely people searching for a sense of identity, for personal connection and for a place to belong. This is pretty straight forward in Rey’s case, since she was abandoned and lived alone for 13 years.

      “She feels like the only belonging she’s ever going to have is her family, and if she leaves, she’ll never get the chance to see them. So, there was a powerful idea that what she desperately wanted was belonging, which she’ll get, but just not how she expects.” – JJ Abrams

      Rey is searching for answers about her parents, because she doesn’t know who she is, and with her powers, she doesn’t fit in anywhere. She seeks Luke, because why not? Maybe she will find her place with the Jedi, but he rejects her. She is also drawn to the dark side, because she believes she will find answers there. Kylo ends up being the only person who understands her connection to the force, and cares enough to listen. There is a sense of compassion, it was there on Kylo’s end in TFA, Rey didn’t feel that way until she learned the truth about Luke’s attempted murder in TLJ, it’s a shared rejection.

      With Kylo, he was groomed by Snoke since childhood through the force, he felt disappointed in his parents (who talked about him like he was a monster, not knowing Snoke was in his head), and was eventually driven from the temple because Luke sensed something amiss (he didn’t kill anyone, Luke’s students chased him away). He believed that Snoke was the only person he could trust and created the Kylo persona, but it still doesn’t fit. His natural tendency is towards the light side of the force, but he believes what Snoke tells him, and looks to dear old grandad for inspiration. So, he’s torn between light and dark, and killed his father hoping it would remove the temptation of the light for good, but it just made everything worse.

        Quote  Reply

    161. mau:
      Jenny,

      Ray is really bland protagonist and her motivation makes no sense in TLJ. Why she even wants to “save” Kylo Ren?It’s just poor man’s version of Luke and Vader’s relationship. She wants to save him because the plot says so, there is no other explanation.

      And what is even her arc in TLJ? What are her motivations? Her dreams? Her struggles? She just does things because she is main character and it is expected from her, but there is no real reason for anything she does.

      Semi Off-Topic re: “Redemption arcs” and bad guys from the dark side having a hidden “good side”:
      Last week I was flipping back and forth from comments sections here on WotW and on a current events/breaking news website, when I read someone comment: “I can’t believe a Bolton is going to be the Theon Greyjoy of this story.”

      I thought for a second it was a book reader discussing clues from ASOIAF and the anticipated trajectory of TWOW and ADOS, until I realized… I was reading comments under an article in the news website about former National Security Advisor John Bolton’s

      apparent refusal to go along with Orange Walder’s quid pro quo extortion shenanigans…

      (Politically-tinged commentary in spoiler coding so as not to offend anyone.)

        Quote  Reply

    162. Jenny:
      mau,

      I wrote a really long post, and it didn’t post!*cries* I’m going to have to split it up so bear with me.

      Did you forget to pray to the Lord of Light and burn something before pressing “Post Comment”?

        Quote  Reply

    163. Ten Bears,

      I always worry that the thread is going to end up full of my posts, because they just disappear, my second attempt was just marked as spam. So annoying. I don’t know what it doesn’t like.

      Ok, so I’ve managed to edit part of it into my last post, and part 2 is below this one. What a faff.

        Quote  Reply

    164. Part 2, hopefully.

      So then we have the hand touching scene, where they shared a vision, though they both interpreted it differently. It was probably a vision of them both side by side, but each believed the other would turn. So that’s why Rey feels perfectly safe running off to face Snoke because she knows Kylo will help.

      Thematically there is a lot of talk in TLJ about letting the past die and building something new, Luke talks about the hubris of the Jedi, and there is the age-old fight between the light and dark. Kylo asks her to join him, but he thinks the only way to move forward, is through the destruction of everything, so she can’t follow, but the force connection remains. I think this was important to avoid that good old ‘bad guy will change for a girl’ trope. She shut the door in his face and left him to it, it isn’t her responsibility.

      So Rey light, drawn to dark. Kylo dark, drawn to light. Add in Palpatine, and they have a shared enemy, they need to meet in the middle to find this balance they keep harping on about. Calling it now, that final shot of her in the trailer is her reaction to him coming to help her.

      You may hate it, but I tried guys, I really did lol.

        Quote  Reply

    165. mau,

      So…are they trying to do a retread of the “there’s some good in you” plot of Annakin/Darth Vader? I’ll pass. It sounds like I made the right decision to forego any more Star Wars after the god-awful “The Force Awakens.”

      (I can only imagine the fans’ reception of GoT S8e5 if Sandor, upon reaching Gregor at the top of the staircase, put down his sword and blurted out: “Gregor! There’s good in you! I’ve seen it myself!”)

        Quote  Reply

    166. Pigeon,

      Well, I’m glad I haven’t ruined your day 🙁

      I will spoiler my speculation,

      He is dead as a dodo, but it would be more of a twist if he didn’t die and actually went to some Jedi prison or something

        Quote  Reply

    167. mau,

      I agree fully. For me the problem is not season 8 but 5, that’s where the butterfly effect started. That made a problem for them, they needed to contain the problems that arises there every season. And once season 6 ended, some things weren’t in place that should have been for season 7. For instance breaking the wall. No horn of winter or something else in mind in previous seasons, so they needed to implement a storyline for it. No visions for Dany, so she needed to being convinced going north (I think George will go much easier with it, Dany already believes because of her visions and warnings). Jaime is still with Cersei and needs to break up with Cersei for better wording, and he needs to fight the others. So that needed to be put in place. So I think season 8 is much closer to the books than 7. Because 7 was their version of putting everything in place for the ending. And the route they took will make the characters who they are, so their actions in 8 need to be about what the show-version of the story would do. Not the book version. It’s very difficult to work to the same ending as the books when the route is different. For instance the complain of Jaime, I personally think that Jaime will be the volanqar in the books and Cersei will be killed before the long night. And I think he will feel shit about it because he killed a loved one, which I think will in the end result in Jaime leaving Brienne, in the show that route doesn’t make sense. No LSH, and more over, Tyrion didn’t tell about Cersei’s infidelity in 4×10. That was a huge butterfly effect. That’s why he didn’t leave her the moment she sends her letter. For the show it makes only sense that Jaime will return to Cersei, because he goes much further for her.

      Still I love every season of GoT. But personally I wished HBO was a bit earlier with granting D&D more freedom with the episode count. Would have been nice if they got 15/16 episodes for season 5 split in 2 parts (like season 7 and 8 as one big season) with 9 months in between them. But with that I’m captain hindsight. Everyone can see that when they watch 1 episode per week and having a whole week to just evaluate what has happened, without building the episode from the ground. D&D had ca 1 week per episode to write. And especially season 5 which is a bit like season 1, the beginning of act 2 with lots of new set-ups and new characters. That’s a huge choir. It takes a huge amount of time to make season 5 perfect like season 1, and fit in every single storyline that was needed. They could have done it, and probably would have if they had half a year or more to write season 5. They didn’t had that, so the only option was making hard choices, and cut the storylines. I said that season 2 had also that many storylines but the difference is, that season 2 their concern was building the know characters from season 1, and only a couple of new faces were needed to be implemented and giving a good entrance for us. And that’s the hard part, how to introduce new characters, and a completely new storyline. The first scene is one of the most important one that takes rewrite over rewrite to get it right. Time they didn’t have.

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    168. Adrianacandle: That’s my favourite scene of them! 🙂

      Mine too! I’ve always felt that “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” is a vastly underrated episode – and that Michelle McLaren should’ve been brought back to direct more episodes instead of [the Director I call “Mr. Blurry Background” – the same director who admitted he tweaked the S6 script of the scene in which the Waif gut-stabs Arya, e.g., to make Arya come off like a clueless idiot and to exacerbate her injuries for supposed “dramatic effect”].

      Michelle McLaren brought a romantic sensibility to the Jon-Ygritte interactions that was missing from those of Jon-Dany.

      P.S. I remember seeing a joint interview of “When Harry Met Sally” screenwriter Nora Ephron and director Rob Reiner explaining how combining the differing perspectives of men and women contributed to the wordplay and banter between Harry and Sally – and gave rise to that movie’s iconic deli scene. (I’ll try to find the video of that interview.)

      Perhaps showrunners ought to consider the benefits of gender-diverse writing rooms and directors when trying to construct believable on-screen romances? Just a thought…

        Quote  Reply

    169. Jenny:
      Pigeon,

      Well, I’m glad I haven’t ruined your day 🙁

      I will spoiler my speculation,

      I speculate that this shot is just the beginning of an epic song and dance number, complete with jazz hands.

        Quote  Reply

    170. Efi,

      Personally I wished they had stayed with the more fantasy like elements of the books. I think the contrast of the fantasy like episode and non-fantasy like episode is amazing. For instance the episode Book of the stranger was not that much fantasy in it. And then we had the door which was huge for the show in fantasy. Back to what blood of my blood was. That for me was a great contrast about the fantasy and non-fantasy in the story and how they contribute each other.

      But about the 2 scenes that Emilia added. I like those 2. Dany with the sword was amazing, especially how Emilia acted it. It was like somebody who don’t know how to use a sword, using a sword. You see how heavy the sword is for her. But what I dislike at it at the same time was Sansa. She got the knife from Arya to protect herself. And then she didn’t use it. I wish she would have just killed 1 wight who was coming for Tyrion for instance. (would also up why Tyrion would choose Sansa over Dany that easily)

      And I also liked the sentence in 8×06 from Dany. It feels like how Dany is, she really doesn’t see what she did was wrong, and she also feel like Jon understands her, and she feels like a burden was lifted of her, and that’s because she is home and not because of the throne itself. But I wish they did the build up better (as many stated episode 4 in 2 episodes)

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    171. Adrianacandle,

      Agree, and you contribute enough here. I always love reading your comments.

      orange,

      Can you give me a head-up. A summary. Because I’m very busy this week and unfortunate not enough time to watch a video. I would like to read some things they said.

        Quote  Reply

    172. kevin1989,

      I think that the last scene of Dany was a bit too much. When she arrived at Dragonstone, she said “I thought this would be home; it doesn’t feel like home”. I’d like to have seen sth along those lines, not what they showed. After all, she’s been searching for the house with the red door all her life, but in the end she has to realize that a throne is not home. So recalling that once upon a time she was so little that she couldn’t count to ten feels a bit off since she did indeed just kill more people in a day than anyone would be able to count.

      As for Sansa’s knife it was used and didn’t make it to screen. It’s in the scripts and it was filmed (there’s images of the filming). She and Tyrion apparently attacked the Others in the crypts and saved Gilly’s, little Sam’s and Missandei’s lives. It would have been a nice addition considering that Missandei said to her “we wouldn’t be alive had it not been for Dany” line. In fact Missandei wouldn’t be alive had it not been for Sansa and Tyrion (my feeling is that this is why the scene was cut; it relativised Dany’s importance for the war).

        Quote  Reply

    173. Adrianacandle,

      ”…What I was really looking forward to was Jon/Arya but I don’t even think Jon knows Arya is a faceless assassin. And he’s never even seen her fight…”

      ——-
      Yeah, I too had been expecting at least a brief scene of Jon witnessing first-hand how skilled Arya had become. (After all, when he gave her Needle back in S1 he told her something like she’d gave to practice with it every day, before imparting the first lesson to “stick ‘em with the pointy end.”)

      Frankly, after Arya conspicuously downplayed her abilities during her S8e1 reunion scene with Jon (when he asked her if she’d ever used Needle, I think she answered simply “once or twice”; link below*), I thought there would at least be a five or six second shot in S8e3 of Jon with his jaw dropping as he watched Arya carve up wights; instead, Davos (why Davos?) witnessed her razzle dazzle spin moves. And since Jon was close by (and neutralized) when Arya materialized to take out NK and save their brother Bran the Bubblehead, even a split-second shot of Jon watching Arya in action would’ve been a nice bookend to their S1e2? scene.

      * S8e1 Arya & Jon

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1thBARrC2w

      at 0:42 – 0:52 (about Needle)
      Jon: “You still have it.”
      Arya (unsheathing it): “Needle.”
      Jon: “Have you ever used it?”
      Arya: “Once or twice.”

      I don’t know how their relationship was depicted in the books. On the show at least, Jon had encouraged Arya to pursue her interest in martial arts: Needle was “not a toy”, and he had certainly been impressed (and amused) when Arya showed up Bran at archery in S1e1.

      I don’t know… I just expected there to be a payoff of Jon’s early encouragement of little Arya’s interests, and at least a brief scene showing his pride in how she’d developed her skills over the 7+ years since he’d last seen her in WF. How long would such a scene have taken? (Her line to Jon about Dany in S8e6? in KL, “I know a killer when I see one”, kind of fell flat without some background about how she would recognize killers. )

      Even during the S8e4 victory celebration, it was Dany who raised a toast to “Arya Stark! The hero of Winterfell!” Unless I missed it, I don’t recall Jon showing any reaction to his beloved little sister’s courage in saving the day (and saving the world).

      This is NOT whinging. It just seemed to me that Jon witnessing or acknowledging that his baby sister had become Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess (ASNAWP ™️) would have been a natural culmination of the path he’d help set her on back in S1. It would’ve been an earned, emotionally resonant, and organic moment. The absence of any acknowledgement by Jon felt conspicuous.

      (I don’t dredge up the wight hunters’ conspicuous failure to mention or inquire about Arya and her fate during the banter between Gendry, Thoros, Beric, Sandor and Jon in the first segment of S7e6 “Beyond the Wall”, or the Gendry-Jon introduction and Eastwatch cell encounter in S7e5, even though they’d all spent considerable time with her at different points throughout S1 – S4).

      I’m just a bit perplexed. It would’ve seemed a natural thing for Jon to see first-hand what Arya had become. Just because fans like me expected it and would’ve enjoyed it, wouldn’t make it “fan service” or justify its glaring omission.

      – End unintended rant – (Sorry)

        Quote  Reply

    174. Adrianacandle,

      Yeah, sorry, my mistake.
      He did. When once again Daenerys explicitly threatened Sansa; after she had burned Varys alive.
      Imagine I’m so traumatized by that scene it completely skipped my mind.
      Anyway, there was a bit of dialog shot after that scene what was skipped in the editing.
      He says I love you, she kisses him, but he’s frozen, so she says sth along the lines of “you’re disgusted”. This was dropped. Apparently it’s a huge contradiction with the “I love you” line.

        Quote  Reply

    175. kevin1989,

      Theory #997 about vanishing comments (or those misrouted to “That Page Not Found):

      I think the advertisement cycles sometimes disrupt posting or interfere with the site’s algorithms. Sometimes when I clean out my (Safari) “History” cache and then wait until new ads show up, I’m able to post previously misrouted or vanished comments.

      Also, I’ve found that sometimes the algorithms don’t recognize the Comment(er) to which I’m replying, or intercept comments with certain proper names.

      For example… (to be cont…)

        Quote  Reply

    176. mau,

      Sorry Mau, of course you’re not 100% wrong. Jon did say that he loved Daenerys, and it’s a gutting scene in which Daenerys blames Sansa for the death of Varys. So he says he loves her when it matters the least, and when Daenerys understands sth totally different and says in the end “let it be fear”.
      What I’m saying is that I’m not convinced that Jon was in love with Daenerys; I didn’t see it on screen; it wasn’t directed as a romance and story-wise it deteriorated very quickly to an abusive relationship.

      [it’s not the chemistry of the actors; they were directed to act like that, especially KH. I’ve seen KH’s movies, he’s excellent and can sell being in love if it’s on script]

        Quote  Reply

    177. Continued from 6:10 pm.

      For example, a while back I tried 5+ times to reply to Tron or Enharmony about the last scene of S8e6 of Jon leading the Free Folk children back to their lands beyond the Wall. I likened it to the last scene of a certain movie.

      For some reason, even now, just the mere inclusion of that movie’s title causes the entire comment to disappear into the ether. (I tried again a few minutes ago, and sure enough that movie title triggered the algorithms.)

      Let’s see if this goes through without the movie title.

      (Testing: 6:25 pm)

        Quote  Reply

    178. Ten Bears,

      My 6:25 pm continuation of my 6:10 comment is stuck in Moderation. (It was an illustrative example of a proper noun triggering the algorithms.)

      That’s an improvement. At least it didn’t vanish.

        Quote  Reply

    179. Ten Bears,

      I agree with your whole post! And I was wanting those scenes too, probably the most out of everything — and I think felt earned! Jon kickstarted Arya’s martial journey (in the books too! Quotes a’coming), I think it’d natural for him to see Arya going at it!

      I did feel it was wierd that Jon didn’t even get to see Arya’s transformation or even comment on it. When Dany made her toast to Arya, Jon smiled — but we don’t get to explore his reaction. Or Arya’s reaction to learned her favourite brother is the son of her long-dead aunt and this Targaryen prince. Who her father hid to keep him alive.

      Per Buffy, “Aren’t you just going, ‘Ooooh’?'” 😉

      GUESS NOT. Or not that we get to see 🙂

      As for the books…

      Wary but excited, Arya checked the hall. “Nymeria, here. Guard.” She left the wolf out there to warn of intruders and closed the door. By then Jon had pulled off the rags he’d wrapped it in. He held it out to her.

      Arya’s eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his. “A sword,” she said in a small, hushed breath.

      The scabbard was soft grey leather, supple as sin. Jon drew out the blade slowly, so she could see the deep blue sheen of the steel. “This is no toy,” he told her. “Be careful you don’t cut yourself. The edges are sharp enough to shave with.”

      “Girls don’t shave,” Arya said.

      “Maybe they should. Have you ever seen the septa’s legs?”

      She giggled at him. “It’s so skinny.”

      “So are you,” Jon told her. “I had Mikken make this special. The bravos use swords like this in Pentos and Myr and the other Free Cities. It won’t hack a man’s head off, but it can poke him full of holes if you’re fast enough.”

      “I can be fast,” Arya said.

      “You’ll have to work at it every day.” He put the sword in her hands, showed her how to hold it, and stepped back. “How does it feel? Do you like the balance?”

      “I think so,” Arya said.

      “First lesson,” Jon said. “Stick them with the pointy end.”

      “Arya gave him a whap on the arm with the flat of her blade. The blow stung, but Jon found himself grinning like an idiot. “I know which end to use,” Arya said. A doubtful look crossed her face. “Septa Mordane will take it away from me.”

      “Not if she doesn’t know you have it,” Jon said.

      “Who will I practice with?”

      “You’ll find someone,” Jon promised her. “King’s Landing is a true city, a thousand times the size of Winterfell. Until you find a partner, watch how they fight in the yard. Run, and ride, make yourself strong. And whatever you do …”

      Arya knew what was coming next. They said it together.

      “… don’t … tell … Sansa!”

      Jon messed up her hair. “I will miss you, little sister.”

      Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. “I wish you were coming with us.”

      “Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?” He was feeling better now. He was not going to let himself be sad. “I better go. I’ll spend my first year on the Wall emptying chamber pots if I keep Uncle Ben waiting any longer.”

      Arya ran to him for a last hug. “Put down the sword first,” Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses.

      When he turned back at the door, she was holding it again, trying it for balance. “I almost forgot,” he told her. “All the best swords have names.”

      “Like Ice,” she said. She looked at the blade in her hand. “Does this have a name? Oh, tell me.”

      “Can’t you guess?” Jon teased. “Your very favorite thing.”

      Arya seemed puzzled at first. Then it came to her. She was that quick. They said it together:

      “Needle!”

      The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north.

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    180. Efi,

      He says I love you, she kisses him, but he’s frozen, so she says sth along the lines of “you’re disgusted”. This was dropped. Apparently it’s a huge contradiction with the “I love you” line.

      I wouldn’t call it a contradiction at all since the same scripting direction also says Jon loves her and lusts for her too. So Jon’s feelings on incest haven’t dampened his attraction for her, despite his discomfortable with their incest.

      An explicit threat would look like Dany saying she’s going to kill Sansa now… but she doesn’t make this kind of threat. But yes, Dany’s definitely blaming Sansa for sharing Jon’s secret against Jon’s wishes, putting the responsibility on Varys’s death on her too.

      it wasn’t directed as a romance and story-wise it deteriorated very quickly to an abusive relationship.
      [it’s not the chemistry of the actors; they were directed to act like that, especially KH. I’ve seen KH’s movies, he’s excellent and can sell being in love if it’s on script]

      I think it wasn’t a healthy relationship but from everything the writers and directors have said, it was intended to be a romance. I don’t think it’s possible to direct two people to not have chemistry (no more than you can direct people to have chemistry) and from everything said by official sources, that’s not the case. The director’s commentary praise their chemistry.

      Which is a point of divide in the fandom, absolutely, but by no means intentional. KH can have chemistry with one woman and not another, ditto EC.

      Like, on X-Files, Gillian Anderson and David Duchovny had so much chemistry together (imo!) but GA didn’t have it with Robert Patrick, the guy who ended up replacing Mulder.

        Quote  Reply

    181. Mango,

      It’s the butterfly effect:

      omitting Sansa’s Vale arc and Jeyne Pool>> Sansa gets married to a monster
      omitting the Northern conspiracy >> Jon and Sansa have to convince the lords to join them against the Boltons
      killing Stannis off prematurely >> Dany takes an empty Dragonstone and Jon has to go to her to take the dragonglass
      omitting the magic horn that will bring down the Wall >> have to invent a way to bring down the Wall

      I’m sure that Kevin can imagine much more that the butterfly effect did to the story. It’s not too bad, it’s legit. They can do that, since they ran out of material and had to make the story “their own”.
      It just took more than half a season to take back the North, it took Dany as much time to return to Meereen, and Sansa as much to break free of her abusive marriage, and so on, while poor Bran was cut out in season 5. We’re just talking about three seasons here, 5, 6 and 7, that were affected by putting aside all the magical elements (the beyond the wall episode received too much criticism) and of merging stories and arcs together. We can’t even nearly discuss what’s happening with Cersei, the Iron Islands and Dorne because the stories are so confounded with each other.

        Quote  Reply

    182. Efi: I like happing, though.

      Oh good! Because I’m realizing I’m dropping words and letters all over the place here! And after the 5-minute editing window!

        Quote  Reply

    183. kevin1989,

      Thanks, kevin, and you too! And I agree with your October 27, 2019 at 5:07 pm post! (I also agree it would have been cool if they kept the Sansa/Tyrion defending-the-crypts-scene!)

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    184. Ten Bears,

      I agree that the “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” is totally an underrated episode. It has my fave Jon/Ygritte moment — and it has my fave Jaime/Brienne moments (other than this one from 305 in which Jaime tells Brienne why he killed Aerys). I would have really liked to have seen what Michelle McLaren would bring to Jon/Dany. Neither are particularly playful characters on their own so I feel they need somebody else/something else to lighten them up but I could have used more breather moments with them. And I think another writer’s POV would have been nice when writing this relationship.

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    185. Adrianacandle,

      Typos!

      *So Jon’s feelings on incest haven’t dampened his attraction for her, despite his *discomfort with their incest.

      *putting the responsibility of Varys’s death on her too.

      Jenny: I wrote a really long post, and it didn’t post! *cries* I’m going to have to split it up so bear with me.

      I’ve been having a lot of trouble with that too these past few days after a prolonged grace period T_T (I may have thrown my computer a few times…) It seems like we take turns having our posts kicked into the ether.

      I liked your write-up! I don’t watch Star Wars but I thought you put your thoughts really nicely 🙂

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    186. Efi,

      I also wish they kept this scene in the filming. I think Missandei was right to say what she did (re: Dany and without her, they’d all be dead) but I think Sansa and Tyrion being proactive in the defense of the crypts would have helped things between Sansa and Missandei. I would have liked to have seen how a relationship like theirs could have gone and more interaction between them (and I’d like to have seen more Missandei in season 8).

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    187. Jenny,

      Ok, gotcha. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Does Dorne want to be independent in the books, though? It seems to me they want a Targaryen restoration with a Dornish king/queen to rule at the Targaryen ruler’s side, thus giving Dorne more influence on the political decisions affecting the Seven Kingdoms. That looks like the exact opposite of independence.

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    188. Great interview with Liam! Love him and what a fierce advocate he is for Game of Thrones, even after it’s over. Especially now, in fact. That’s our Davos, loyal to the end a man of principle to his very core.

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    189. kevin1989,

      ”…For me the problem is not season 8 but 5, that’s where the butterfly effect started. That made a problem for them…”

      Yup. As I’ve posited before, shoehorning show! Sansa into the books! Jeyne Poole WF plot on S5 screwed up the characters’ timelines and geography. That led to the inexplicable concealment by Sansa of the KotV* – one of the side effects of trying to restore the show! chronology to that of the books. With so many moving parts and interrelated plot lines, that effort wasn’t as easy as it may have appeared on paper.

      *Though I have not read the books, I suspect that Sansa will eventually come north from the Vale with KotV to save the day. However, all of the show! deviations resulting from her premature relocation to the north, will NOT happen in the books:
      That includes the show’s ridiculous LF Bolton marriage plan and Sansa’s absurd assent to it; Sansa’s resultant character regression and her resumption as a human punching bag for yet another psycho for yet another season; her escape to Castle Black and uneasy alliance with (e.g., mistrust and sniping at) Jon; her underdeveloped role as supposed “savvy politician” according to the showrunners but not adequately portrayed on screen; Brienne sitting around waiting for days or weeks on end for an SOS candle in a tower, only to turn away two minutes before the candle is lit in order to pursue her selfish quest to avenge Renly the Usurper by executing the One True King; Brienne imparting to Sansa (in S6e2) that she saw Arya alive and well – and yet the next season Jon inexplicably saying “I thought Arya was dead” when he receives word that she’s returned to WF; Sansa whining that Jon wasn’t listening to her during formulation of battle plans and then when he does ask for her input she says “I don’t know about battles”; and a host of other illogical behavior and wonky plot lines.

      I’m convinced that there is no way that GRRM, for all his procrastination and meandering side stories, would ever devise such story lines bereft of understandable character motivations, and reliant on previously competent characters suddenly afflicted with inexplicable stupidity.

      These kinds of unjustifiable decision-making and baffling behaviors (caused in part by reconfiguring the books’ story lines) are to be contrasted with what I understand to be GRRM’s portrayals of understandable yet fatal miscalculations that occur when, for example: emotions clog the intellect [e.g., Robb, blinded by love, reneging on his Frey bridge-access deal]; “the human heart in conflict with itself” poses equally unpalatable, “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” choices, often with unforeseeable outcomes [e.g., Ned falsely confessing to treason to try to protect his daughters]; pursuing noble objectives impels the commission of evil acts or resort to immoral conduct [e.g., Stannis deluded into drinking Melisandre’s Kool-Aid in order to “save the realm”]; or simply doing “what’s right” without due regard of the perils [e.g., by rescuing and reconciling with the wildlings to preempt their induction into AotD, Jon also exposed himself to murder at the hands of his xenophobic NW “brothers”, though I think in the books (?) his decision to depart from NW neutrality to confront Ramsay also played a role.]

      That’s my theory and I’m sticking to it. 😎

      So yes, Kevin, I agree that the “butterfly effect” of screwing around with the books’ story lines probably caused many of the problems cited by the fandom.

      By the same token, George himself didn’t do the showrunners any favors by leaving a narrative gap between where he left off in the last book (around mid-S6 in the show’s storylines, by my uneducated reckoning), and the ultimate conclusions of the stories he supposedly shared with the showrunners. That’s also one of the reasons why I believe I was left with the general impression that S7 and S8 lacked the “connective tissue” to hold the story together. Whether or not one feels the showrunners “could’ve or should’ve done better”, whatever they managed to cobble together on their own within fixed time constraints couldn’t measure up to whatever endgame George has been working on (or not working on) for the past ~ 7 years and counting.

      So I suppose there’s enough “blame” to go around. I’ll just be content with – and praise – the 90% of a wildly entertaining 73-episode show that hit the bullseye, while reserving the right to gripe about the 10% that missed the mark. (And besides, when all is said and done… there’s always ASNAWP 🗡👸🏻 and Sandor 🐓🐓 for me to be thankful for.)

      -End unnecessarily verbose comment –

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    190. Adrianacandle,

      FYI: In case you’re interested, I think this is the video of Nora Ephron & Rob Reiner discussing the making of “When Harry Met Sally” that I referred to earlier. It’s very informative and quite entertaining: they really get into the collaborative process, and how their unique male and female perspectives combined to infuse the characters with realism, and produced a better movie than either could’ve done on her or his own.

      (I think they explain how Meg Ryan’s classic deli scene arose from a brainstorming session in which Nora Ephron asked Rob Reiner to tell her something unspoken about men that women generally don’t know about, and Rob Reiner asked Nora Ephron to tell him something unspoken about women that men generally don’t know about.)

      Anyway, I think it’s really instructive how a gender-diverse creative team can create a better, more believable romance, and script more credible dialogue in scenes between men and women.*

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5-j7K8Mbzk

      * (By comparison, I was going to launch into a critique of what I felt was a cringeworthy scene with horrendous dialogue between Sansa & Sandor in S8e4… before I thought better of it. For now…)

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    191. Maybe, as is my wont, I misheard, but did the host of Maisie’s segment call them vegan chicken wings?

      If so, that is just so wrong!!!

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    192. Efi,

      Ackkkkk! 🤢 I just read your 6:35 pm comment (about the “butterfly effect” etc.) and see that you stated succinctly what I was trying to get at in my long-winded, bloviating comment at 8:55 pm.

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    193. mau,

      GRRM is gardner after all, which mean writer with no real plan or idea what to do with his story and characters. If he really knew the books would have been finished long time ago.

      I hate that Martin used this analogy. A gardener does plan, as he should have, to make what he wanted to grow in the end. Just sayin (just spent most of the weekend working in said garden….feels like I did more than just plan! Everything hurts…..)

      Im obviously behind needing to catch up, but so far really enjoying reading this discussion.

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    194. Thanks everyone for their warm wishes. The kids are married! And I sat next to my wife’s childhood best friend and her husband. Guess what, they named their cat Daenerys and their other cat Dany! They didn’t know I was a GOT fan, but then we found out we had some common interests! Her husband was also a huge LOTR fan too.
      He was also a big fan of Wheel of Time, which perhaps I should checkout one day after my GOT journey….

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    195. Ten Bears,

      When Gendry reunited with Princess
      Arya Stark aka Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess (ASNAWP) on Game of Thrones in S8e1, he responded to Arya’s request with a similar line: “As you wish, my lady.”

      Oh yes! great call out to that fabulous book (and movie)

      Mango,

      Where the books are currently at, Bran is a child so it will take a bit of writing by GRRM to work Bran as king. However, since D&D has known for some time that Bran would be king their failure to include him and provide a storyline that highlighted him or even suggested some depth/character/wisdom/bravery was an idiotic misjudgment. Leaving him out of an entire season was a poor decision. Even in the few instances where he could have shown maturity and depth such as his interaction with Meera they missed those opportunities. Nothing was given to suggest that he was anything but a weirdo – a low functioning autistic.

      I agree with most of this; Esp leaving him out of Season 5; they could have done so much with him then. However, I’d ask that you not throw labels around. I teach children with autism (or did before I retired). To say he might be ‘on the spectrum; would be better. Just sayin

      That being said I hated what they did to his character – he really was a robot, with few human feelings. He could have been a foreseer, and still give him feelings that a human has.

      Adrianacandle

      Far From the Tree is indeed an excellent book; the title refers to parents reactions to children who are different: whether with a disability, a prodigy, a child who is gay (as Solomon is), as well as a child who commits crime. His research is sound, as is his empathy with the families that he interviews. Highly recommended

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    196. Ten Bears,

      PPS: Jon ❤️ Ygritte = Tragic romance done right. For me at least, Jon x Dany was missing those emotional ingredients, or at least enough interpersonal scenes (and playful banter) to establish that emotional connection, such that Dany’s death and Jon’s decision to kill her lacked the tragic, romantic resonance of Ygritte dying in Jon’s arms.

      totally agree. I so did not buy this romance from the very beginning.

      Adrianacandle,

      and it has my fave Jaime/Brienne moments (other than this one from 305 in which Jaime tells Brienne why he killed Aerys).

      I was so frustrated that Brienne does not use this when standing up for Jaime at his trial. Other people should have known about this.

      Ten Bears,

      (I think they explain how Meg Ryan’s classic deli scene arose from a brainstorming session in which Nora Ephron asked Rob Reiner to tell her something unspoken about men that women generally don’t know about, and Rob Reiner asked Nora Ephron to tell him something unspoken about women that men generally don’t know about.)

      Its also revealed that the woman who says “Ill have what she’s having’ is his mother 🙂 (Love that movie, we watch it every new years eve…)

      Cant remember who said it but yeah they should have kept the Tyrion/Sansa scene – would have been nice seeing Sansa use that knife

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    197. ash: Far From the Tree is indeed an excellent book; the title refers to parents reactions to children who are different: whether with a disability, a prodigy, a child who is gay (as Solomon is), as well as a child who commits crime. His research is sound, as is his empathy with the families that he interviews. Highly recommended

      100%!

      Some of the questions Solomon is asked by these parents he interviews are heartbreaking. I also like that he never tries to put his own spin on things and looks at the issues from all sides, including a variety of experiences.

      I also like his explorations of horizontal identities and vertical identities and how they relate to these reactions, feelings, and views of the parent and child involved in their various circumstances. And sometimes with other family members. It’s made me think about identity a little differently — what comes from where.

      If you haven’t seen this, you might be interested in this NPR interview with Solomon!

      I was so frustrated that Brienne does not use this when standing up for Jaime at his trial. Other people should have known about this.

      Me too. And I think she’s the only one who knows — nobody else. For so much of Jaime’s life, he let people think the worst. I think that’s tragic.

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    198. Long time lurker, first time poster, testing.

      Always valued Liam’s takes; he seems like a really humble, level-headed, unpretentious kind of guy. And I for one couldn’t agree more with him =)

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    199. Tron79:
      Thanks everyone for their warm wishes. The kids are married!And I sat next to my wife’s childhood best friend and her husband. Guess what, they named their cat Daenerys and their other cat Dany!….

      1. Mazel Tov!
      2. I’ve been hearing lots of stories about parents who had named their newborn daughters “Daenerys” or “Dany” during S1 – S7, and now truly regret it in light of their heroine going full on mass murdering Mad Queen at the end of S8.
      3. They shoulda gone with “Arya.” 🗡👸🏻

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    200. Adrianacandle,

      Ooh thanks for that books’ passage of Jon giving Arya Needle! After reading it. I think the show did a real good job adapting it for the screen. They kept in the best parts of the dialogue from the passage, and added a few lines that weren’t in the books but worked well on screen (e.g., Arya mimicing Septa Mordane telling Arya her things weren’t properly folded, followed by Arya’s common sense observation to Jon: “Who cares how they’re folded? They’re going to get messed up anyway.”)*

      Or maybe that’s in large part because little Maisie Williams was a naturally gifted acting savant.

      P.S. Just curious: Was that introductory part of the scene of Nymeria “helping” Arya pack, and then failing to understand Arya’s commands (“Nymeria, gloves!”) when she tried to show off Nymeria’s training to Jon, also in the books?

      * I loved that line. It reminded me of the “logic” I would try to use on my mom when I was a boy and she told me to clean up my room, e.g.: “Why should I clean it up? I’m only going to mess it up again.”

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    201. Young Dragon,

      depends how you look at it. If one of your own is the second most powerful being in the kingdoms, that can result in having your kingdom more freedom than all the other Kingdoms. And it make sure you’re protected at the same time. That’s what happened with Dorne at least under Robert’s rule. They had their own rules in Dorne and way of living. Even Doran called himself Prince and Robert didn’t care. Same when Elia was the queen.

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    202. Ten Bears,

      Yes, the whole scene was adapted very well! (And I hear you on the “logic” against cleaning one’s room — AND folding clothes) Arya’s “packing skills” are why she gets the Westerosi equivalent of grounding 🙂

      Arya was in her room, packing a polished ironwood chest that was bigger than she was. Nymeria was helping. Arya would only have to point, and the wolf would bound across the room, snatch up some wisp of silk in her jaws, and fetch it back. But when she smelled Ghost, she sat down on her haunches and yelped at them.

      Arya glanced behind her, saw Jon, and jumped to her feet. She threw her skinny arms tight around his neck. “I was afraid you were gone,” she said, her breath catching in her throat. “They wouldn’t let me out to say good-bye.”

      “What did you do now?” Jon was amused.

      Arya disentangled herself from him and made a face. “Nothing. I was all packed and everything.” She gestured at the huge chest, no more than a third full, and at the clothes that were scattered all over the room. “Septa Mordane says I have to do it all over. My things weren’t properly folded, she says. A proper southron lady doesn’t just throw her clothes inside her chest like old rags, she says.”

      “Is that what you did, little sister?”

      “Well, they’re going to get all messed up anyway,” she said. “Who cares how they’re folded?”

      “Septa Mordane,” Jon told her. “I don’t think she’d like Nymeria helping, either.” The she-wolf regarded him silently with her dark golden eyes. “It’s just as well. I have something for you to take with you, and it has to be packed very carefully.”

      Her face lit up. “A present?”

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    203. Ten Bears,

      Agree. But

      * I think Sansa will not go north much later. She will help in the treat against the Other’s. Not defeating the Bolton’s. Many think Jon will take back Winterfell. But that’s not Jon’s part in the story. His part is the Other’s. Jon’s death was always suppose to be at the end of Dance. But the defeat of the Bolton’s was also meant to resort in Dance. They are not that main characters in the book than they were in the show. The Bolton’s winning makes no sense. Especially with the Northern conspiracy. Winterfell will be taken back not by battle in the books, but by scheming, from fake-allies to the Bolton’s that are going to step them in the back. Stannis also has a larger roll, we already know Dany will take care of him with her visions of the house of the Undying. He will be part in the defeat. The letter of Jon is only meant to let Jon and Mellisandre go down, and after that preparing for the war against the other’s. It also result in Mel burning Shireen because she thinks Stannis is death, but in fact he is still alive. Which will be the result in having her faith being strengthened in the books. And having a fall-out between Mel and Stannis when he learns his daughter is dead. Stannis is also done with fire-magic and his Winds chapter suggest that he will use the old gods magic. The Ice Magic. (Theon will die sooner in the books). The theory is that he will become the new Night King and lead the Other’s south of the wall.
      About Sansa. I think she will be part in making allies with Aegon once he sits on the throne and defeated Cersei. And once Jon asks for Aegon and Sansa’s help she will convince everybody to go north, Sansa trust her brother and if her brother says the WW exist, they exist. And Arianne can agree with it. She saw the CotF sculptures in the cave.

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    204. ash,

      He has almost everything in place. And his plan for Dorne and Iron Islands and Griff was already set up in the first 2 books. I’m halfway through clash now and I had the set-up for all 3 already read.

      As for his detours with his characters. Yes he garden there. He sometimes take a longer route. But he already explained why: The characters doesn’t do what he wants them to do. He writes the story in their nature. That means to get to place Z from A. Sometimes he need to implement some other letters on the way. But his clear goal he has already. He already has the bigger picture of the last 2 book in his head. But he is missing the roads between the cities that he wants to go to. (cities is his plotpoints, the road the logical way to go there depends on the character how).

      And he is not late because of his gardening. He already explained it that it’s his projects that is at fault.

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    205. Adrianacandle,

      Thanks! I don’t write about Star Wars, so I did my best. I get excited about the new movies but my investment is pretty casual, I can happily come out of each movie saying, ‘I liked that one, didn’t like that one’ etc.

      To be honest, half of the Last Jedi is straight up boring, when Kylo/Luke/Rey aren’t on screen it’s a snooze. So I have no desire to defend it at all. But I do like the dynamic of those three.

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    206. Jenny,

      Yeah I was wondering the same thing. It’s not about the last season, the 1st season or any other time period that seems logical. But hopefully we’ll get more info later.

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    207. Off topic, but episode 2 of Watchmen was damn good. I wasn’t that big a fan of the pilot, glad I stuck around for the second ep.

      And when is this Jane Goldman spin off going to get approved????

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    208. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      congratulations. Was it a beautiful wedding?

      Yes definitely. No pigeon pie luckily. It really was beautiful and Jenny was worried about the weather. It was a perfect fall (autumn) day. The wedding was inside in a beautiful atrium but lots of photos outside in front of a tree that wasn’t quite a weirwood but it had leaves of many colors.

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    209. Adrianacandle,

      I think too we should have seen some scenes of casual interactions between diverse characters, like Sansa-Gilly, Sansa-Missandei, Daenerys-Missandei and so on. It would have been nice and human, but they did intend to show Missandei’s isolation for enhancing the tragedy of her death. Missandei only has Greyworm to kling to, and her dream is destroyed. It’s sad, it worked in the story, but it’s very, very simple story-telling.

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    210. Tron79,

      I’m so pleased! That sounds like my idea of a perfect day. I’m glad that it all went well. If you’d been in England this weekend, rain rain rain and more rain. It was grim lol.

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    211. Ten Bears,

      Sorry, I tend to condense. In my line of work I’ve received comments such as “this is very nice, but you have to explain what you mean because I don’t understand” and I’m like, “I don’t understand what you mean. Which part isn’t clear?” Lol.

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    212. Ahhh… here we go again 🙂

      No, the show has not been rushed until the last two season. Everyone ceitically thinking knows it perfectly. Also, there would NEVER be an adaptation that would go with a full material from the source, yet sometimes it needa to be stretched like in Hobbit.

      He obviously missed the point. The rush in the show is not about some chacarcters being not there… it’s about the time-management within the world. It’s been maximally stretched.

      I don’t care if they wanted 70 hours from the begining. So what? So they used 60 hours of the material, let’s say, well and the last 10 hours needed to be enourmously packed? When they started, they could not have a clue how long would that take. It was an estimation, in which they failed, and yet it somehow is an argument to prove that it all went with plan.

      Jesus, it’s such a filter bubble. The confirmation bias is huge, really. Actors will never admit it was crap since they were part of it (acting actually was on point). Ehh…

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    213. Ten Bears,

      “By the same token, George himself didn’t do the showrunners any favors by leaving a narrative gap between where he left off in the last book (around mid-S6 in the show’s storylines, by my uneducated reckoning), and the ultimate conclusions of the stories he supposedly shared with the showrunners. That’s also one of the reasons why I believe I was left with the general impression that S7 and S8 lacked the “connective tissue” to hold the story together.”

      It just occured to me reading this comment that Martin would have been too frustrated by seeing his baby ASOIAF taking turns that he wouldn’t like, so as the D&D replies indicate it must have been a friendly divorce. (and in this context I can also imagine that it’d difficult for him to work on the book while it was his book that being ripped apart after season 5).
      For example, not including those magical elements had the practical effect on the show that it all inevitably evolved around the dragons. This kind of decisions help to induce a one-sidedness (for lack of better word, that’s not what I mean exactly) that was also a managerial decision especially with the ending of season 5. To put it clearly, it had the effect that the weight of promotion effectively became Daenerys and the dragons; they were in reality the steam engine of the GOT enterprise, which in its turn resulted in the seasons 6-8 being what they were (and I would selling “the romance” in these seasons).

      However, here’s what Martin has said about ASOIAF.

      Collider (2011): In creating this world, did you start out with one family and then branch off into the rest of the world?
      GRRM: Well, the Starks are certainly the center of the story, when it begins. It all begins at Winterfell, with occasional cuts to Daenerys across the ocean, because there was no way I could get her into Winterfell. But, we bring all the characters together at Winterfell, and they’re all there for a while before they start to go their separate ways. By the time you’re done with the first book, pretty much all of them have gone their separate ways. There are no two characters together anymore. From that point forward, the story spreads and grows progressively larger. I also introduce more characters, players and factions, in later books, to thicken the plot a little more. But, the Starks are the center of the book and, to a lesser extent, the Lannisters. They are still the major players. I write from this tight third-person viewpoint, where each chapter is seen through the eyes of one individual character. […]

      Collider: When you went into this, did you intentionally take the children, put them in an adult setting and force them to be in very adult and complex situations?
      GRRM: Yeah, the children were always at the heart of this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central. Bran is the first viewpoint character that we meet, and then we meet Jon and Sansa and Arya and the rest of them. It was always my intention to do that. As for the harshness, the whole series is harsh. My inspiration have grown, not only from Tolkien, but also from history and historical fiction. […]

      RS (2014): Given the complexity of A Song of Ice and Fire, did you have concerns over how faithfully it could work onscreen?
      GRRM: (…) Some people I met thought we have to find the story’s through line. Who’s the important character? Somebody thought that Dany’s the important character – cut away everybody else, tell the story of Dany. Or Jon Snow. Those were the two most popular characters to build everything around, except you’re losing 90 percent of the story.

      Time (2017): It must have been a leap to allow this adaptation to happen, knowing it could never be as internal as a novel could.
      GRRM: (…) I had a number of meetings long before David and Dan, with people who said this is the next Lord of the Rings franchise. But they couldn’t get a handle on the size of the material, the very thing that I set out to do. I had all these meetings saying, “There’s too many characters, it’s too big — Jon Snow is the central character. We’ll eliminate all the other characters and we’ll make it about Jon Snow.” Or “Daenerys is the central character. We’ll eliminate everyone else and make the movie about Daenerys.” And I turned down all those deals.

      SI (2014): What about the families: Are the Starks, say, the Green Bay Packers?
      GRRM: Whenever I propose analogies like that, fans jump in with their own ideas, but it depends on what team you root for. To me, the Starks are heroes, so they would be the Giants.

      So, the Starks are the center of the story. But my favorites are those answers on the dragons:

      Meduza (2017): The world of “Game of Thrones” is very convincing and very realistic, so why did you decide to bring magic into this world? Did it need walking corpses and dragons? What prompted you, as the writer, to introduce magical elements?
      GRRM: I did consider in the very early stages not having the dragons in there. I wanted the Targaryen’s symbol to be the dragons, but I did play with the notion that maybe it was like a psionic power, that it was pyrokinesis — that they could conjure up flames with their minds. I went back and forth. My friend and fellow fantasy writer Phyllis Eisenstein actually was the one who convinced me to put the dragons in, and I dedicated the third book to her. And I think it was the right call. Phyllis, by the way, is distantly related to your Eisenstein, the maker of the great Russian films, “Battleship Potemkin” and “Alexander Nevsky.”

      Question (Fan Chat in Guadalachara, Mexico 2016): Why do you think the political institutions in the Seven Kingdoms are so weak?
      GRRM: The Kingdom was unified with dragons, so the Targaryen’s flaw was to create an absolute monarchy highly dependent on them, with the small council not designed to be a real check and balance. So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn’t really know what to do with the throne and then chaos.

      Vulture (2014): When civilizations clash in your books, instead of Guns, Germs, and Steel, maybe it’s more like Dragons, Magic, and Steel (and also Germs).
      GRRM: There is magic in my universe, but it’s pretty low magic compared to other fantasies. Dragons are the nuclear deterrent, and only Dany has them, which in some ways makes her the most powerful person in the world. But is that sufficient? These are the kind of issues I’m trying to explore. The United States right now has the ability to destroy the world with our nuclear arsenal, but that doesn’t mean we can achieve specific geopolitical goals. Power is more subtle than that. You can have the power to destroy, but it doesn’t give you the power to reform, or improve, or build.

      The season 8 story was all about Dany and the dragons. Effectively (as is indicated in the tweets) D&D admitted that they deviated from Martin’s reasoning, structure, thematology, purpose and story in general.
      By Martin’s logic, they lost 90% of the story. But that would be a very harsh critique if one was to accept it -after all, it’s a different medium, there’s lots of money involved, and they had to take into consideration other factors.
      As you said above, it’s entertaining, in my opinion season 8 was not a good story but that doesn’t mean that it’s entirely dismissible or that its unreasonable that some (or many) people find it very good.

      (ok, let’s hope this posts)

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    214. Ok, lots of mistakes there (verbs are missing or are incorrect), but for not jinxing this long post that is so much copy-paste I won’t edit.
      Sorry people!

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    215. Jenny,

      Thanks! I don’t write about Star Wars, so I did my best. I get excited about the new movies but my investment is pretty casual, I can happily come out of each movie saying, ‘I liked that one, didn’t like that one’ etc.
      To be honest, half of the Last Jedi is straight up boring, when Kylo/Luke/Rey aren’t on screen it’s a snooze. So I have no desire to defend it at all. But I do like the dynamic of those three.

      I think casual investment is the sweet spot! Enough to get excited, but not so much to result in a lot of disappointment if unfavourable things happen in the story.

      I don’t watch Star Wars so I can’t really offer much insight! But most of my friends (and my dad) does!

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    216. Efi,

      I think too we should have seen some scenes of casual interactions between diverse characters, like Sansa-Gilly, Sansa-Missandei, Daenerys-Missandei and so on. It would have been nice and human, but they did intend to show Missandei’s isolation for enhancing the tragedy of her death. Missandei only has Greyworm to kling to, and her dream is destroyed. It’s sad, it worked in the story, but it’s very, very simple story-telling.

      I would have liked to have seen those interactions too because I’ve always been curious. Like dialogue between Dany and Tormund, Dany and Arya especially, Missandei and Sansa, Sam and Tormund, Tormund and Gilly…

      I think Sansa and Missandei’s exchange was more about showing the various divided factions still in existence, even when united against a common threat. We didn’t get much of Missandei — not even some Dany/Missandei scenes and they’re best friends. Like with many relationships in season 8, it was another I felt that had fallen by the wayside and would have benefitted had season 8 included more character-moments in between the big stuff.

      By Martin’s logic, they lost 90% of the story. But that would be a very harsh critique if one was to accept it -after all, it’s a different medium, there’s lots of money involved, and they had to take into consideration other factors.

      While I definitely agree that they had to adapt the story to TV (as GRRM acknowledges in that 2011 interview), much of the magic has gone away in the adaptation and there have been quite a few deviations (some of which have been mentioned here and not all of which GRRM is happy about, re: Lady Stoneheart), for his part at least, Martin has also said he’s felt the series has been relatively faithful to his story as of April 14, 2019:

      “I don’t think Dan and Dave’s ending is gonna be that different from my ending because of the conversations we did have,” Martin told 60 Minutes. “But on certain secondary characters there may be big differences. We’re talking here about several days of story conferences taking place in my home in Santa Fe, New Mexico. But there’s no way to get in all the detail, all the minor characters, all the secondary characters. The series has been extremely faithful compared to 97% of all television and movie adaptations of literary properties. But it’s not completely faithful. And it can’t be. Otherwise, it would have to run another five seasons.”

      But I did find a lot lacking writing-wise in season 8. I’m good with the themes explored and I would have liked more development but some of the writing, itself, seemed sloppy to me — as if parts hadn’t been proofread or checked against what they, themselves, had written. It sort of felt like a Cliff’s Notes version.

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    217. ash,

      When I was writing it I thought the objections to the post would be that I seemed to equate weirdo with low functioning autistic. Also possibly, that I had diagnosed Bran without any proper testing. (I wrote it anyway!)

      However, I am intrigued by the comment about throwing labels around. Why is saying “on the spectrum” a better term to write? Just curious..wouldn’t “on the autism spectrum” be far clearer. And for me, “austistic” be the clearest writing for a general audience.

      What is the current best practice? I am happy to conform if it causes serious distress to others – well at least in speaking. Does “on the spectrum” lead to questions such as “Which spectrum?”. Is “on the spectrum” to avoid saying “where on the spectrum”? I could see that concern. Or to avoid saying autistic?

      I can understand in conversation with a parent/child, I would avoid being so precise in an attempt to avoid causing pain. In fact, I would try not to say “on the spectrum” or whatever. Unless I was required to comment, I would just not give any sign that I noticed anything amiss. If I had to say anything to a parent, it would be vague like – every child is special in their own way, with luck and love, we should hope they find a good future. If I were their doctor, then I would be clear and accurate.

      However, Bran is an adult that has just been appointed a king. His health and personal (mental and emotional) capabilities are no longer a private matter. They are matters of national interests and socio-political importance. So I had no reservations about writing my note. If could be worse, I could have said he was a stable genius.

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    218. Iris,

      It’s clear from the tweeter’s annotations that they don’t like D&D at all so they’re likely taking stuff out-of-context, cherry-picking, twisting their words, etc. all in an attempt to make them look as bad as possible – only giving short answers in quotations and building their own context around them. Until the full transcript comes online from a credible source, take this with a generous side helping of salt.

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    219. Argh, tried to edit and its been marked as spam! I didn’t close off my italics so now everything is! Well, so it goes

      However, Bran is an adult that has just been appointed a king. His health and personal (mental and emotional) capabilities are no longer a private matter. They are matters of national interests and socio-political importance. So I had no reservations about writing my note. If could be worse, I could have said he was a stable genius.

      Hahaha!

        Quote  Reply

    220. Jenny:
      D&D did a talk at the Austin film festival, and someone live tweeted if anyone is interested.
      https://twitter.com/ForArya/status/1188186578071556102

      Is this real? Were these their answers? If it is I think I just lost my respect for them.

      And for the fantasy element. Yes I can see why they would need to promise that to HBO in season 1. HBO never done fantasy like this (I don’t count that vampire show as fantasy). But after they saw how it scored, I think they could have implemented it more than what they did. Maybe not as high as the books (For instance omitting the gate where Bran went through the wall, didn’t matter to me that they omitted it.)

      And I don’t like their writing style, one 5 the other 5. I remember with LOST that they also had a certain writing style that I think was better. Every writer got the characters they understood best, and they wrote the scenes of that character.

      But is this real? Because it doesn’t feel real to me.

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    221. Tron79,

      Sounds nice. Autumn can be very beautiful.

      when the cold winds blow, the lone wolf dies and the pack survives.
      Be together with family is important in these colder days.

        Quote  Reply

    222. Ten Bears:
      mau,

      Excuse my ignorance. What was the deal with “The Last Jedi”? I have not seen it, and I won’t.
      For me, “The Force Awakens” blew so bad I’ll never see another Star Wars movie.

      This

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    223. kevin1989,

      As far as I’m aware, they have said this stuff before, so the answers didn’t seem particularly alarming to me. Perhaps seeing it laid out in one interview paints a different picture, but there’s no new info here that I can see.

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    224. kevin1989,

      Kevin: Here’s a Vanity Fair article about the statements of Benioff & Weiss at the Austin Film Festival. Of course I can’t vouch for the reporter’s veracity. I just figured a real article in a magazine might be more reliable that someone’s “tweet.”
      ————————

      Vanity Fair
      Oct. 28, 2019
      by Laura Bradley

      ”Game of Thrones Creators Chose a Weird Time to Confirm They Had No Idea What They Were Doing

      As David Benioff and D.B. Weiss put it during a fan panel over the weekend, during the show’s early days, “Everything we could make a mistake in, we did.”
      ————

      David Benioff and D.B. Weiss clearly know how bad the backlash to Game of Thrones’ final season was. The show’s creators did, after all, skip their scheduled appearance at the show’s San Diego Comic-Con panel after the internet began ripping the final season to pieces online, and remained silent for months after the finale aired. So one might wonder why, at a panel at the Austin Film Festival over the weekend, the two chose to ruminate on just how underqualified they were for the job of adapting the fantasy mega-series in the first place. Perhaps they hoped a display of modesty would earn them some slack. But whatever outcome they desired, what they got instead was more outrage.

      During the panel the two acknowledged that they had basically no TV qualifications to speak of at the time they landed their HBO deal. That fact alone was not new, but the extent to which that affected their early work was striking. Describing their earliest meeting with George R.R. Martin, Benioff said the author questioned their bona fides. “We didn’t really have any,” he said. “We don’t know why he trusted us with his life’s work.” The two also admitted to making basic writing mistakes in the pilot, saying, “Everything we could make a mistake in, we did.” That included script, casting, and costume design. Weiss described the experience as, essentially, a very expensive film school; the two didn’t even know how to work with costume designers, for instance, which made the entire thing a huge learning experience. After producing a season filled with 39-minute episodes, the two said HBO asked for an additional 100 minutes to fulfill their contractual obligations—so they added, for example, a shared scene with Robert Baratheon and Cersei Lannister, who previously somehow shared zero scenes in the entire season.

      The revelations went on from there, including that the two downplayed fantasy elements to expand the fan base to include “mothers, NFL players” (?), and that they never really sat down to try and boil down all of the books’ essential elements, as they found the scope to be too big. Instead, they said, they thought about the scenes they wanted to depict, and that the show was about power. The entire story might be designed to project underdog status—look at where they are compared to where they started! But in the minds of plenty, especially those who have been critical of Benioff and Weiss before, it was just proof of white men’s ability to receive chances and benefit of the doubt that few others could dream of with such slim qualifications.

      Ever since the finale aired, the Game of Thrones cast has been forced to acknowledge or avoid discussing the negative response, but Benioff and Weiss had previously largely avoided situations that would force them to respond. It’s striking, if slightly baffling, that the two decided to make these comments now. Even stranger is that the discussion seemed to confirm the harshest suspicions fans have harbored all along, or at least since they found themselves without Martin’s source material.
      The season eight backlash came from fans and even Martin himself, but the show also managed to stage a victory lap at September’s Emmys nonetheless. It remains to be seen what Game of Thrones’ ultimate legacy will be. On one hand there’s a good chance there will never be a show like it again, in terms of broad viewership domination—and its mega-popularity could easily become its defining factor in the annals of TV history. Whether it’s remembered for anything beyond that impact is not guaranteed—but at least Benioff and Weiss got some solid TV writing experience out of it.

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    225. Ten Bears,

      The bit about D&D targeting NFL players and mothers instead of fantasy fans was just bizarre. Aside from the randomness of it all, is it confirmed that NFL players and mothers are 100% anti-fantasy or something?

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    226. Reek,

      Here is an article he wrote for Syfy, he must freelance for them. https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/david-benioff-db-weiss-austin-film-festival
      A list of his other articles written for them.
      https://www.syfy.com/author/christian-long

      And I assume Esquire checked before citing him as a source. Anyway, it is making the rounds in the main stream press, if it’s inaccurate, I’m sure that it will be contradicted at some point. Take it with a pinch of salt. As I said before, there is nothing really new here.

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    227. Efi,

      So in a nutshell… the show put Dany & Dragons on center stage, and relegated the Starks to the sidelines: the inverse of GRRM’s focus.

      It kind of showed, especially in S8. Relatively speaking, the storylines of Bran, Jon, Sansa, direwolves, and to some extent Arya, were left with dangling loose ends, unresolved questions and abandoned backstories.
      On the other hand, the final season seemed determined to highlight… Bigger dragons! More dragonfire! 🔥Mother of Dragons! Dracarys! Burn them all! Fire and blood FTW!

      (I had already reached my DSP* by mid-S7. However, I realize the massive TV audience got off on the spectacle of firebreathing dragons f*cking sh*t up.)
      * DSP = Dragon Saturation Point

      GRRM was right. This was a story about the Starks as the heroes. That’s who I (we?) were primarily invested in. Sidelining them or giving them short shrift at the end left their stories feeling… unfinished.

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    228. Quick hypothetical “Thought Experiment”:

      Let’s say Dany had decided to pack up and return to Mereen after S8e3 (and took that cackling clown Euron with her), and the final episodes were devoted to fleshing out the Starks’ stories.

      Would Dany, the dragons, Dothraki and Unsullied really have been missed?

        Quote  Reply

    229. Ten Bears: Would Dany, the dragons, Dothraki and Unsullied really have been missed?

      Oh, I think they would be. Dany was still a big part of the story and one of the most popular characters (I think the top four are Tyrion, Jon, Dany, and Arya). She also has the fourth most chapters of all POV characters (Tyrion has 49, Jon 42, Arya 34 and Dany 31). So if she disappeared after 803, that’d feel pretty weird.

      I think GRRM was referring to the Starks as the center for the first book, and the Lannisters as well. He also mentions having cuts to Dany because he can’t bring her to Winterfell. But I can see the Starks/Lannisters as the center applying to following books too, with other characters being added to the mix.

      Here’s the full quote from that 2011 Collider interview (it is a good interview):

      Martin: Well, the Starks are certainly the center of the story when it begins. It all begins at Winterfell, with occasional cuts to Daenerys across the ocean, because there was no way I could get her into Winterfell. But, we bring all the characters together at Winterfell, and they’re all there for a while before they start to go their separate ways. By the time you’re done with the first book, pretty much all of them have gone their separate ways. There are no two characters together anymore. From that point forward, the story spreads and grows progressively larger. I also introduce more characters, players and factions, in later books, to thicken the plot a little more. But, the Starks are the center of the book and, to a lesser extent, the Lannisters. They are still the major players. I write from this tight third-person viewpoint, where each chapter is seen through the eyes of one individual character. When I’m writing that character, I become that character and identify with that character. So, when I’m writing a Tyrion chapter, I’m in love with Tyrion. And then, when I switch to Jon Snow, I’m in love with him. Same with Daenerys. Even the characters who are perhaps not the nicest people in the world, and who are deeply flawed and might even be considered villains, if I am writing from their viewpoint, I have to identify with them. Nobody is a villain in their own story. We’re all the heroes of our own stories. So, when I am inside the head of a character who would otherwise be considered a villain, I have a great deal of affection for that character and I’m trying to see the world and the events through their eyes.

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    230. Ten Bears,

      There was also a section included at the end of AFFC (“Meanwhile, Back on the Wall/A Cavil on Chronology”) that addressed the noticeable absence of Tyrion, Dany, and Jon:

      “Hey, wait a minute!” some of you may be saying about now. “Wait a minute, wait a minute! Where’s Dany and the dragons? Where’s Tyrion? We hardly saw Jon Snow. That can’t be all of it…”

      Well, no. There’s more to come. Another book as big as this one. I did not forget to write about the other characters. Far from it. I wrote lots about them. Pages and pages and pages. Chapters and more chapters. I was still writing when it dawned on me that the book had become too big to publish in a single volume … and I wasn’t close to finished yet. To tell all of the story that I wanted to tell, I was going to have to cut the book in two. The simplest way to do that would have been to take what I had, chop it in half around the middle, and end with “To Be Continued.” The more I thought about that, however, the more I felt that the readers would be better served by a book that told all the story for half the characters, rather than half the story for all the characters. So that’s the route I chose to take.

      Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Stannis and Melisandre, Davos Seaworth, and all the rest of the characters you love or love to hate will be along next year (I devoutly hope) in A Dance with Dragons, which will focus on events along the Wall and across the sea, just as the present book focused on King’s Landing.

      I love the “I devoutly hope” bit XD;

      (This was June 2005. ADWD did not come out until July 2011 ;D)

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    231. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      Sounds nice. Autumn can be very beautiful.

      when the cold winds blow, the lone wolf dies and the pack survives.
      Be together with family is important in these colder days.

      Well, not sure about the wolf for our family… My son who got married’s sigil would definitely be a Cat of some kind. My other son who is 22 now would definitely be a Tully. He has always been crazy about fish, and if I ask him any details about his life, he just responds with one word….”Fish”. So definitely a Tully. But yes seriously, nice to have everyone together.

      I should be back on my book journey tomorrow. I have a pretty large block open tomorrow and things have definitely calmed down.

        Quote  Reply

    232. Adrianacandle,

      However, it’s indicative (for me at least, as I see it) that this last intwerview of Martin was not repeated after the show ended. I mean, he didn’t repeat again anywhere that the story is the same, or that the ending is the same for that matter. In fact, he refuses to answer any questions about GOT (rightly so), and he uploaded the well-known post in his blog with the “yes and no and yes and no and yes”, in which he says nothing about the main characters of the story. I mean who cares really for the side characters? Jeyne Poole and Sandor are not PoVs.
      As for people who claim that he did, it becomes clear that the information derives from long before season 8, when even Martin apparently might have thought that the ending would be close to his. The more solid piece of evidence that “the ending is the same” comes from IHR, who heard it from D&D, who had learned from Martin years ago.

      So now this does not mean that I believe that Bran shall not be king in the books. He probably shall. What kind of king, or where, remains to be seen. As they said, D&D and also Martin himself, the broad strokes are the same. But the “broad strokes” cannot in my understanding relate so much to the persons, as to the final outcome. The Starks being at center of the story as Martin has stated repeatedly means that they’ll come on top of the story at the end (I like this ending, lol), and that all the threats to them, meaning Cersei/Lannisters, NK, Daenerys, shall be gone one way or another. But in this context, who is where and under what conditions at the end of the story remains to be seen.

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    233. Ten Bears,

      Well Dany is essential to the story; she is related to the magical elements of Westeros, and there can be no Jon without Dany. So they are necessary, and it is where the story was going. After the Ice threat is eliminated, the Fire threat must also be dealt with. And they always have to see what happens with the throne. Without Dany I don’t see how the Starks would get involved with what’s gonna happen in the South; they’d declare independence, then they’d barricate themselves behind the marshlands and they’d be forever living in peace apart from an occasional war or two with the South. But Dany claims the throne, she’s their ally and Jon is the “rightful heir” to that throne. That is the final war. So Dany, her hoard of Dothraki and her legions of Unsullied push the story forward to Kings Landing.

        Quote  Reply

    234. Efi,

      ”…I mean who cares really for the side characters? Jeyne Poole and Sandor are not PoVs.”

      Blasphemy! Blasphemy I tell you!

      Sandor is not a “side character.” He is the Warrior of Light! The Guardian of the Princess That Was Promised!

      Wouldn’t GRRM have let him die and left him dead if he didn’t intend for “the Gravedigger” aka Sandor Clegane to play a role in the story? I wouldn’t be surprised if he does become a POV character.

      Whatever George is up to, he’s got plans for Sandor Clegane. The author isn’t done with him yet.

      (J/K 🙃)

        Quote  Reply

    235. Ten Bears,

      Does ‘missed’ mean central to the plot? Because obviously Dany and her dragons are central to the plot and Jon’s choice to assassinate her. Without Dany and the army we’re left with the remaining Starks attacking King’s Landing? With none of Dany’s forces and Cersei with the Golden Company you would think the chances of victory would be much less. Dany’s burning of King’s Landing is basically the last major climax/battle that sets up the ending so I would say, yes, they would be missed.
      If you mean that they could still reach a satisfactory climax without Dany, dragons and company then I’m sure it could be achieved… albeit much back-stabbing amongst the Starks/ remaining Lannisters and the other families. But to remove Dany and the dragons at this point in the story would almost certainly draw ire.
      Your question would probably be better served if it asked if we removed Dany and company from the series in the first place and just focused on the noble Westeros families… But no, in this point in the story it would not have served it to just send Dany and Euron and the dragons and company back across the Narrow Sea. It probably would have been met with more venom than the actual show was. For what it’s worth I had no gripes with the show or the ending. It is easily the best show I’ve ever seen production quality wise. Tv viewers these days are spoiled and if the plot doesn’t adhere to their personal expectations or values they go ape shit.

        Quote  Reply

    236. Efi,

      GRRM wasn’t actually saying much that was different to what he said before:

      “The [final] series has been… not completely faithful” he acknowledged of the shortened final run. “Otherwise, it would have to run another five seasons.” Earlier this year, Martin noted on his blog that “I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done,” while showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss were “working in a very different medium.” The TV version began diverging heavily from Martin’s work in Season 6, having already adapted the majority of his five published novels.

      I don’t doubt that there will be differences — especially in the lead-up to the final arc, what season 8 dealt with. There were a lot of problems with season 8, I think. For example, I think the Long Night will be dealt with very very differently and probably not in a single 6-hour space, never to appear again.

      I don’t think the Starks being at the center of the story necessarily means they’ll come out on top or will end up in a different place than they did in the show (how they get there, that may be different). I think it simply means much of the story and plots center around them. GRRM also said the Lannisters, too, were another center of the story but to a lesser extent (and I doubt they’re coming out on top).

      But in its context, I think that statement has more to do with the first book. The Starks are major players but not all of the major players are Starks.

      In fact, he refuses to answer any questions about GOT (rightly so), and he uploaded the well-known post in his blog with the “yes and no and yes and no and yes”, in which he says nothing about the main characters of the story. I mean who cares really for the side characters? Jeyne Poole and Sandor are not PoVs.

      I don’t know if I’d read too deeply into this.

      And I know plenty of Sandor fans 😉

      The more solid piece of evidence that “the ending is the same” comes from IHR, who heard it from D&D, who had learned from Martin years ago.

      Believe me, I’d love a different ending to this story. So much.

      But this could be Martin’s ending, just achieved in a different way.

      Two of his editors, Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson, have some intesting ideas on how that can be done (and they are definitely not fans of the show).

      But in this context, who is where and under what conditions at the end of the story remains to be seen.

      I do agree with we don’t how what’s going to happen or how characters will get to their final destinations

        Quote  Reply

    237. Ten Bears,

      “GRRM was right. This was a story about the Starks as the heroes. That’s who I (we?) were primarily invested in. Sidelining them or giving them short shrift at the end left their stories feeling… unfinished.”

      Exactly. The Starks and what happened to them was tragic and in the end none of the events of seasons 1-4 were addressed in season 8. With season 7, which I did find very interesting from a political scope, I prepared myself for a dynamically political season 8. Alas! The political plot was reduced to “I don’t want it”, and the best they could do was to repeat that line episode after episode as if Jon Snow’s arc is about a child not wanting his cream. What they did with Daenerys, reducing the best female villain ever written to some mentally unstable spoiled brat who realized that the Barbie she got was not what she wanted for Christmas so she destroys her (they should have given her Ken to go with it), is unspeakable. Meanwhile, Dany’s favorite “quote”: look what you made me do! (you’re a bad boy, bad, bad, bad!)

      Sidenote: I liked the political plot. We don’t often get medieval politics series on TV or the cinema. I loved Tywin from the first ep. he appeared. I always thought Ned was an idiot.

        Quote  Reply

    238. Efi: But Dany claims the throne, she’s their ally and Jon is the “rightful heir” to that throne. That is the final war. So Dany, her hoard of Dothraki and her legions of Unsullied push the story forward to Kings Landing.

      I’ve seen a variety of interpretations of how the final war will go down. This is from the link I included above where two of GRRM’s editors talk about their predictions (copy and pasted from the Gwen & Kit link in which I shared this with Kevin with some edits):

      * They point out that before Aemon left Castle Black, he tells Jon that he had a passage in the Jade Compendium marked for him to read. Jon promises he will read it. When Jon does, he finds the story of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa.

      * Linda doesn’t think Dany will do her “liberation” speech in the books (which included threats to Winterfell). Believes Jon will need a different motivation in the books, a “looming threat” that would be absent should Dany not decide to take the world by fire and blood.

      * Posits the threat of the Others may not be quite over (after KL?) and Jon will still have a purpose to fulfill there.

      * She speculates Nissa Nissa might happen and at this point.

      * Also believes Jon will end up Beyond the Wall.

      * Believes Aegon (Elia’s son) will be the one to save people from Cersei (“the handsome young hero”, thinks he’ll have Dorne on his side, will rally the people). Dany will view him as a pretender.

      * Dany is going to feel threatened by Elia’s Aegon.

      * Believes she’ll ultimately be feared by Westeros with her foreign army.

      * Believes Dany is constantly reaching for her past with the house with the Red Door, realizes her future is not what she hoped.

      * Believes this darkening will be a far more gradual, painful, “earned” process.

      * Believes Dany will lose a dragon to Euron and may lose another while fighting.

      * Believes Barristan may have to make a hard choice to betray Daenerys.

      * Thinks she may have a child.

      * Wonders if one of GRRM’s three “holy sh!t” moments is either the burning of KL or Jon killing Dany.

      * Speculates that in conquering KL, Dany ends up destroying it, dragonfire accidentally setting off wildfire caches. And in destroying KL, she inadvertently destroys what she set out to find (home).

      BUUUUT it’s anyone’s guess 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    239. Ten Bears,

      Sandor as a PoV would have been an authorial challenge (he likes/doesn’t mind to kill, has raped, has been an abuse victim). I mean all Martin’s characters are bad, but they have a “normal” facade, like Jamie, Cersei, Tyrion, and even the Starks are very complicated. In fact, I don’t know which of his PoV characters is as bad as Sandor. Tyrion is definitely the worst I’ve read, but Sandor is close to common criminal (for lack of better word, as if that would make a difference in Martin’s world).
      I’ve thought many times that I’d like to have Sandor’s PoV, I’d find it very interesting. Perhaps it’s not too late and it’s coming.
      (Martin has stated that there will be no new PoVs in WoW)

        Quote  Reply

    240. Farimer123: Long time lurker, first time poster, testing.

      Always valued Liam’s takes; he seems like a really humble, level-headed, unpretentious kind of guy. And I for one couldn’t agree more with him

      Welcome! 🙂 I like how Liam Cunningham speaks — I’ve loved him as an actor since he was the dad in “A Little Princess” <3

        Quote  Reply

    241. Rickard Greyjoy,

      It was purely a hypothetical question, i.e., if Dany had left the story after S8e3. Obviously the ending would have played out differently if she weren’t around to go psycho and nuke KL.

      I had just wanted more time spent with the Stark family in the concluding episodes. That’s all.

        Quote  Reply

    242. Efi,

      I take it that book! Sandor doesn’t have the redeeming qualities (or one-liners) as show! Sandor.

      (It’s not just me. So many show-only fans I know love the character of the Hound as portrayed by Rory McCann, and felt his love-hate-InsultFest with Arya was the best part of the show.)

        Quote  Reply

    243. Ten Bears: Here you go…

      Liam Cunningham as the amnesiac dad in
      “A Little Princess”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mszANpbvdM8

      at 2:28 – Sarah!!

      I love that scene! ;; Especially after everyone thought she was nuts and she was about to be taken away. Best movie 😭😭😭

      I think my favourite favourite scene is after she’s relegated to living in the attic — when, one morning, the snow blows the balcony doors open, Sara wakes up, walks to the balcony, and twirls as the snow falls.

      It sounds so bizarre to write it out that way but I love that scene — and the music, ‘Kindle My Heart.’

      This is why I always wanted to live in an attic.

        Quote  Reply

    244. Ten Bears: I take it that book! Sandor doesn’t have the redeeming qualities (or one-liners) as show! Sandor.

      I’d say he shares those qualities and has some good lines! I think he’s harder/harsher in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    245. Adrianacandle,

      Funny thing, I wanted to make a tiny little comment about Nissanissa, but first.

      If you’re interested in the youtube videos, I highly recommend Grayarea, who has uploaded a lot on the magical context of ASOIAF, based on the books. She’s a fanatic Daenerys’ adherent herself and has thereby missed the chance to predict Daenerys’ ending, unlike Talking Thrones, who did (years ago, after season 7 aired), who also said that the story of the Others would end at Winter-fell (he also spells it like that, lol), and thereafter it’d be about the throne (he also predicted that Dany dies by Jon’s hand and that Sansa presumably becomes queen in the North).
      I need to find time to watch the video (it’s almost 2 hours long!).

      My problem with these videos is that they confound books and show, and I can’t see the show as evidence for what happens in the books.
      And there’s always the problem with the prophecies and the Dany-Jon romance from which somehow the commentators can’t break free. I’d like comments that do not rely on, or compare these two things.
      (ie I’d like to read/hear someone’s thoughts on the famous “dance of dragons 2” that Martin has promised and almost no one thinks that it’d be a Jon-Dany fight)

      Anyway, Nissanissa. Apart from an extra -n- and an extra -i- the word is respelled Assassin.
      Martin does this kind of anagramms in his work (this one is not a real anagramm since two letters are added, lol, now that I think about it in the Turkish genitiv it fits exactly -assassinin, isn’t that funny?). I have no idea what assassin/nissanissa means in context, to be honest.

      But has anyone ever thought that Melisandre is Nissanissa? That perhaps she should have died by the sword at WF, so that the swords light up with her fire? Is it by chance that the banners of Rh’llor are a fiery heart?
      [If that was to happen on the show, it would have been 2 women dead; if Cersei would die by one of her brothers hand, it would be 3. No more comments needed here, but I’ll only say that Martin loves his threes].

      So, I’ve said before I think that AA has been fulfilled; it’s Daenerys and her dragons. The circumstances of hatching the dragons are an exact match (apart from the “willingness” of Nissanissa of the prophecy to be sacrificed, since Drogo was catatonic when Daenerys killed him).
      The dragons are the fiery sword that Jon needs. In his dreams, he sees himself fighting on the battlemets of WF with a flaming sword. It was burning with black fire (?I think) and if I am not mistaken (? I could be) Drogon’s fire is also black-red.
      Even though I do think that Rhaegal is Jon’s dragon, since named after his father, significantly green, which is the color of the old gods, with orange flame, orange also being a color of nature in autumn. Jon as raised by Rh’llor with the aid of the old gods (Ghost) is claimed by fire (burned hand, to significantly “hold” the “fiery sword”) and is destined to fight both Ice and Fire.
      So I think there will be a clash with Daenerys, and perhaps KL will burn as a result of that war. Jon might as well kill her either during this fight or afterwards, but imo there’s a good chance that Daenerys will die as a war casualty, facing Jon as an opponent.

      I have no idea what might happen with the dragons, or with the Wall. These two belong to the magical sphere of Westeros, so it’s up to Martin to decide if he’ll eliminate all magic from Westeros after all this happens, or if he’ll let some of these live on. (if there’s no Wall for example there’s no sending exiles there).

        Quote  Reply

    246. Ten Bears,

      Book Sandor is rather worse but lots of the lines people loved in the show come from the books.
      That said, I have no idea if there’s a redemption arc for him. There’s always a chance that he has really died alone from horrible wounds and his story may serve as an example of what might happen to someone who goes down that road.
      But most of the people think that he’s alive and he’ll be back in the next books, which wouldn’t be far from what the show showed us. If the show can be seen as evidence, I think he’ll be back in the books too. He was also one claimed by fire, and if he has a destiny, that’s to overcome his fear of fire, which is a central element in ASOIAF.

        Quote  Reply

    247. Ten Bears,

      The story wasn’t about power. It was about much more. Power was just a part of it.
      And the fantasy element was what the show made great. They adapted a fantasy novel, fantasy is in it. You don’t adapt a detective novel and exclude as much police work as possible.

      And the choice to focus on mothers, NLF players etc above the die-hard fantasy fans that started the fanbase of the show (without the book fans in 2011 I never would have watched GoT after the pilot aired) they were the first fans that made the show big, and once it’s big you don’t just turn your back on those fans and focus on other fans that came after. They adapted a fantasy story; adapt it, and the fans who like it watch it the others don’t. But that’s just my take on this part.
      I can understand the choice that they made, but for me it doesn’t work. It’s the same if they would have exclude the spells in Harry Potter, because that magic won’t appeal to mothers, or exclude the light saber fight because it doesn’t appeal to the greater audience. It’s what the story is, it should be in it.

      As for the whole show. I talked with my partner about it who was not really excited about the final season once it aired, it was not memorable for him. And he even stated that Dany’s turn should have started season ago. He is just a casual watcher who watch enjoy it and put it down, does that with every show, but he sees what works. But he stated that even when season 8 was rushed and not that great, it was still a good show as a whole, the story is solid. But not ground breaking that he expected it to be (Like lord of the rings was with the movies). And I think I will agree with him.

        Quote  Reply

    248. Adrianacandle,

      I like if they do that 🙂

      Efi,

      I would like a 1 time PoV from Sandor. Just his journey you read, and only at the end you know it’s Sandor. He can call himself the gravedigger the whole time. (A bit like Reek I). And in the end he will be recognized by another main POV. Maybe Arya. And it would be even more awesome if we even didn’t know it was Sandor at all in that chapter, and only when we read the next chapter of Arya.

        Quote  Reply

    249. Ugh, same old whining from so-called “fans”… I really need to learn to never come back here because any time, I only get immensely pissed off at all the negativity I see here.

        Quote  Reply

    250. Efi,

      I just read the chapter that Stannis is at Renly’s camp. And something struck me. Cat says that the sword of Stannis emits heat. But Aemon says the sword doesn’t emit heat. Which I found strange. She even states the changing colors of the sword.

        Quote  Reply

    251. Efi,

      Thanks for the suggestions!

      I don’t think these videos are confusing the books and the show. The show is an adaptation of the books and D&D know GRRM’s ending. As much as there will be differences (especially with secondary characters), I think some things will align but will come about differently — those “broad strokes”. It’s no guarantee but the show and books aren’t completely independent of one another. I think the show is an approximation of the books but the books will be much, much, much bigger in scale.

      And there’s always the problem with the prophecies and the Dany-Jon romance from which somehow the commentators can’t break free. I’d like comments that do not rely on, or compare these two things.
      (ie I’d like to read/hear someone’s thoughts on the famous “dance of dragons 2” that Martin has promised and almost no one thinks that it’d be a Jon-Dany fight)

      I think the reason is because Dany and Jon’s romance has long been speculated. Based on what I’ve found on westeros.org, it’s been speculated for as long as R+L=J has been. Passages indicate J/D may happen and the parallels between these two characters have been poured and poured over. The stories of these two significant characters (one in the far north and the other in the heat of the east), seem to mirror one another’s quite a bit and similar challenges seem to face them at similar times, resulting in a kind of ying and yang storyline. As a result, for them to be straight-up enemies, that wouldn’t be anything special. It’d be more of the same.

      Anyway, Nissanissa. Apart from an extra -n- and an extra -i- the word is respelled Assassin.
      Martin does this kind of anagramms in his work (this one is not a real anagramm since two letters are added, lol, now that I think about it in the Turkish genitiv it fits exactly -assassinin, isn’t that funny?). I have no idea what assassin/nissanissa means in context, to be honest.

      That is funny XD I don’t know if it relates but it’s kind of cool!

      But has anyone ever thought that Melisandre is Nissanissa? That perhaps she should have died by the sword at WF, so that the swords light up with her fire? Is it by chance that the banners of Rh’llor are a fiery heart?

      I can see Melissandre giving herself over willingly but she’d need to be killed by somebody who loves her and I don’t know who that would be.

      So, I’ve said before I think that AA has been fulfilled; it’s Daenerys and her dragons. The circumstances of hatching the dragons are an exact match (apart from the “willingness” of Nissanissa of the prophecy to be sacrificed, since Drogo was catatonic when Daenerys killed him).
      The dragons are the fiery sword that Jon needs. In his dreams, he sees himself fighting on the battlemets of WF with a flaming sword. It was burning with black fire (?I think) and if I am not mistaken (? I could be) Drogon’s fire is also black-red.

      It’s an interesting theory but I’m not sure it quite connects. While Dany smothered Drogo with a pillow, he was already gone. It was Mirri Maz Duur who took Drogo’s life force and she definitely didn’t love him. In the Nissa Nissa prophecy, the soul of the beloved is supposed to combine with the blade to give it its power.

      Which is why I don’t see how the second piece connects? It was Dany’s sacrifice (well, not really a sacrifice so much as an act of mercy for Drogo, who had become a vegetable) so I’m not sure how that connects to Jon’s dream of a flaming sword.

      So I think there will be a clash with Daenerys, and perhaps KL will burn as a result of that war. Jon might as well kill her either during this fight or afterwards, but imo there’s a good chance that Daenerys will die as a war casualty, facing Jon as an opponent.

      I’m not sure. I think there’d need to be something far more significant than just Dany and Jon facing each other as enemies, especially considering Taylor’s comments on what GRRM shared with him before Jon and Dany hooked up on the show:

      We were in Malta shooting episode ten of the first season, and the show wasn’t a big deal yet and we weren’t being very secretive because nobody cared yet, and [Martin] just sort of mentioned in passing, “Oh well it’s all about Dany and Jon Snow” and at the time I thought, “Really? I thought it was about Sean Bean and Robb Stark?”
      But he knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we’re starting to see that come to fruition. We know that it’s circling tighter and tighter on Dany and Jon and their partnership is starting to form, you know, “fire and ice.”

      So I think it needs to be something more significant, more special, than just Dany and Jon being enemies like every other pair of people on opposing sides.

        Quote  Reply

    252. Efi,

      This piece got cut off from my last post!

      I have no idea what might happen with the dragons, or with the Wall. These two belong to the magical sphere of Westeros, so it’s up to Martin to decide if he’ll eliminate all magic from Westeros after all this happens, or if he’ll let some of these live on. (if there’s no Wall for example there’s no sending exiles there).

      Maybe. Or maybe the magic dies out again for a time until it resurges and the dragons retire without a rider. Perhaps they’ll go to Asshai or something. I remember Linda speculating that Jon’s fate is the Wall, where he keeps the Others forced back. Perhaps some magic will linger on.

        Quote  Reply

    253. Adrianacandle,

      In Dany’s last chapter in book 1 (or Dany I from Clash). There’s a reference that Drogo’s soul went into Drogon. Something about the ghosts in the tent of Mirri Maz Duur. So maybe it’s possible.

        Quote  Reply

    254. kevin1989:
      Efi,

      I just read the chapter that Stannis is at Renly’s camp. And something struck me. Cat says that the sword of Stannis emits heat. But Aemon says the sword doesn’t emit heat. Which I found strange. She even states the changing colors of the sword.

      Does Cat say that it emits heat or does she say “as if from heat”? Here’s one of her passages from Catelyn 3 in ACOK
      “The air around it seemed to shimmer, as if from heat.”
      That doesn’t necessarily tell me that it generated heat… It could have had a glamour that imitated the appearance of heat without actually generating heat. But maybe you read a different passage?

        Quote  Reply

    255. Tron79: Does Cat say that it emits heat or does she say “as if from heat”?Here’s one of her passages from Catelyn 3 in ACOK
      “The air around it seemed to shimmer, as if from heat.”
      That doesn’t necessarily tell me that it generated heat… It could have had a glamour that imitated the appearance of heat without actually generating heat.But maybe you read a different passage?

      Seems I read it right but forgot wrong, I read too fast sometimes when I like a chapter.
      You’re right. That’s probably Mellisandre’s glamour tricks at work.

        Quote  Reply

    256. kevin1989: In Dany’s last chapter in book 1 (or Dany I from Clash). There’s a reference that Drogo’s soul went into Drogon. Something about the ghosts in the tent of Mirri Maz Duur. So maybe it’s possible.

      I can’t find that passage but I’ll look for it!

      The thing is, it was MMD who took Drogo’s soul, not Dany, and it was not a sacrifice but vengeance. When Dany allowed her to use magic on Drogo, it was not in the belief that MMD would kill him to save her son, Dany allowed MMD to sacrifice Drogo’s stallion to bring him back but MMD only brought Drogo back to a vegetable state.

      Meanwhile, Dany killed Drogo’s physical body when he was already a vegetable and it wasn’t a sacrifice, but a mercy.

        Quote  Reply

    257. Adrianacandle,

      It was Daenerys IIX IX and X of the first book. When she enters the tent, and dreams after that. And when she enters the pyre she sees animals, and Drogo before her. And if not mistaken also Rheago.

      But I need to take the book out of the shelve to look up the passages.

        Quote  Reply

    258. kevin1989,

      Do you mean this?

      She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. “Home,” she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

      It’s an interpretation that Drogo’s soul combined with Drogon’s, or it could mean his death and the dragon who’d hatch afterward and take his name.

      But there’s also that Drogo’s death did not bring about the hatching of dragons. If there was blood magic involved, that was MMD’s death.

        Quote  Reply

    259. Efi,

      ”Anyway, Nissanissa. Apart from an extra -n- and an extra -i- the word is respelled Assassin. Martin does this kind of anagramms in his work (this one is not a real anagramm since two letters are added…”

      Switch out “i” for “a” in Nissa Nissa, play anagrams, and you get…

      Sansa Sansa.

        Quote  Reply

    260. kevin1989,

      Oh yes, I’ve seen this one. I think it’s sometimes referred to as the “time traveling fetus” theory? Thanks for the link 🙂

      Gotta go for real now!

        Quote  Reply

    261. Ten Bears:
      Efi,

      ”Anyway, Nissanissa. Apart from an extra -n- and an extra -i- the word is respelled Assassin. Martin does this kind of anagramms in his work (this one is not a real anagramm since two letters are added…”

      Switch out “i” for “a” in Nissa Nissa, play anagrams, and you get…

      Sansa Sansa.

      If you add a change one s to t you get Nista Nissa, which is an anagram for Stannis ista. So maybe the clue is in Stannis istagram account?

        Quote  Reply

    262. kevin1989: That’s something I don’t know anything about. Hope it doesn’t hurt.

      It gets a bit dicey at the lash tinting part, you start to feel these seams of fire against your eyeballs where the tint seeps through your closed lids, eyes start watering like crazy, 10 minutes feels like a boundless void of time which has no beginning and no end, all your eyes know is fire, you start to wonder if you’ve known anything but fire, is your life’s purpose fire, is all pain fire, is all life pain, is pain life, when did this begin, will it stop, will I ever see light again, have I ever seen light, is light pain —

      Then the timer goes off — worth it!!! 🙂

      (I managed a ride so I have 5 min left!)

      Oh really. I like it.

      It IS a fun theory! I feel it’s one of the most creative I’ve ever read!

      Going for real REAL now!

        Quote  Reply

    263. kevin1989: If you add a change one s to t you get Nista Nissa, which is an anagram for Stannis ista. So maybe the clue is in Stannis istagram account?

      Go on…. I’d like to hear more about Stannis’s instagram account…

        Quote  Reply

    264. Efi:
      Ten Bears,

      Book Sandor is rather worse but lots of the lines people loved in the show come from the books.
      That said, I have no idea if there’s a redemption arc for him. There’s always a chance that he has really died alone from horrible wounds and his story may serve as an example of what might happen to someone who goes down that road.
      But most of the people think that he’s alive and he’ll be back in the next books, which wouldn’t be far from what the show showed us. If the show can be seen as evidence, I think he’ll be back in the books too. He was also one claimed by fire, and if he has a destiny, that’s to overcome his fear of fire, which is a central element in ASOIAF.

      The main “tell” for me was not so much the

      mysterious, limping, cloaked man at the compound (although this would seem to be him, obviously) – it’s that Stranger is in the stalls. No one can handle Stranger but Sandor (if I recall correctly, he does a number on one of the brothers trying to handle him). So the only way he could have been brought to the island is if Sandor was as well. Of course this doesn’t mean that there will be a plotline devoted to him, but I hope there is! I found myself wishing that they had kept Stranger in the series – imagine if instead of the white horse approaching Arya after the burning of King’s Landing, it had been Stranger, allowing her to claim him. Ow my heart.

        Quote  Reply

    265. Adrianacandle: It gets a bit dicey at the lash tinting part, you start to feel these seams of fire against your eyeballs where the tint seeps through your closed lids, eyes start watering like crazy, 10 minutes feels like a boundless void of time which has no beginning and no end, all your eyes know is fire, you start to wonder if you’ve known anything but fire, is your life’s purpose fire, is all pain fire, is all life pain, is pain life, when did this begin, will it stop, will I ever see light again, have I ever seen light, is light pain —

      Then the timer goes off — worth it!!! 🙂

      (I managed a ride so I have 5 min left!)

      It IS a fun theory! I feel it’s one of the most creative I’ve ever read!

      Going for real REAL now!

      Enjoy your time in the void! (It’s brow tint for me in a couple of days) 🤪

        Quote  Reply

    266. Pigeon: Enjoy your time in the void! (It’s brow tint for me in a couple of days) 🤪

      The Void! I like that term! (I spent my Void thinking about the link Kevin sent to me XD Thanks for the mind material, Kevin!)

      The joys of tinting days!!

        Quote  Reply

    267. Efi,

      Speaking of Nissa Nissa theories, there’s this one theory that’s also creative (like Dany/Drogo). Rhaegar is Azor Ahai and Lyanna is Nissa Nissa. Rhaegar plunged his… “sword”… into Lyanna, “forging” Jon and Lyanna died in childbirth, giving birth to the weapon against the darkness.

      While I think this theory also has some issues (Rheagar and Lyanna didn’t exactly go at it in anticipation she’d die from the resulting childbirth and Lyanna didn’t exactly die by Rhaegar’s hand), it’s another creative theory — like the one you brought up 🙂

      Theory source (13:28):

        Quote  Reply

    268. Ten Bears,

      Good catch!
      There’s already wild speculation out there about Sansa’s name.
      Her fans have speculated that it comes from some eastern name/godess. I prefer a more western interpretation. (and I think I am correct about it)
      It’s funny that it sounds like “chance” which in French is pronounced “sans” (with a rather thick -s-). I think you can find the word spelled with an -s- in some other western language.
      In Turkish, however, it is “şans” (because they don’t have -ch- and they don’t love vocals at the end).

      The first time about assassin I thought: really? the Ninja warrior? Nay….

        Quote  Reply

    269. kevin1989,

      “If you add a change one s to t you get Nista Nissa, which is an anagram for Stannis ista. So maybe the clue is in Stannis istagram account?”

      LOL! do they even have instagramm in Westeros? Try to imagine what he (: his secretary/Melisandre) would upload. Videos/photos of triumph with the burning sword; directions how to look into the flames and be successful; how to perfect-burn a human.
      And when Stannis himself got to it, he’d correct everybody’s grammar and syntax mistakes with obsession.

        Quote  Reply

    270. Pigeon,

      It is implied I guess that someone loaded him on Stranger and brought him there. But people tend to steal horses anyway.
      I think he’s rather alive; it’d be anticlimactic if his story ended without any culmination.

        Quote  Reply

    271. Adrianacandle: Go on…. I’d like to hear more about Stannis’s instagram account…

      It has pictures of Stannis Baratheon.

      Adrianacandle:
      kevin1989,

      If Tyrion is Dany’s future son from the past — what do you envision happening? 🙂

      Good question. If the stallion who mounts the world is true, he maybe mounts one of the dragons. And will be responsible for destruction in Essos and Westeros where he goes. Maybe directly maybe through his influence with Dany.

      But it could make sense what for instance this means: When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east.
      And to go south you need to go north. And we know time-travel is real in the show and probably the books. So it’s not that strange as we though years ago.
      And it make sense at how Mirri Maz Duur told how the baby looked like.

      And maybe the answer is more simple. If this is true, that means that Tyrion could have a bond with the dragons. And with Daenerys. She will trust him without knowing why.

      And I find it less strange than the theories of Bolt-On. Or Varys is a Mermaid.

        Quote  Reply

    272. Adrianacandle,

      Interesting. It’s not that far-fetched that George will use a more “Sexual” twist for his prophecies.
      But it made met think. Elia was very weak after each birth. Lyanna died in childbirth. Are we certain the problem is not with Rheagar that the mother’s get ill/die after birth?
      Rheala also got a lot of stillbirths.

      Efi,

      It’s all uploaded to Bran. The 3 Eyed Raven.

        Quote  Reply

    273. kevin1989: Interesting. It’s not that far-fetched that George will use a more “Sexual” twist for his prophecies.
      But it made met think. Elia was very weak after each birth. Lyanna died in childbirth. Are we certain the problem is not with Rheagar that the mother’s get ill/die after birth?
      Rheala also got a lot of stillbirths.

      Unfortunately, it wouldn’t be limited to Rheagar. Problems and deaths caused by childbirth weren’t unusual in the middle ages, especially before sanitation became a thing starting in the late 19th/early 20th century. Even now, so much can go wrong (but yes, current medical technology and interventions have really lowered mortality rates in first world countries). It’s a natural process but very hard on the body.

      As for the theory itself, I don’t know… Maybe? Although, I don’t think Lyanna’s soul was forged with Jon’s and I believe they’re missing the sacrifice component. By the time Lyanna was dying, it’s not like she had much of a choice… Jon was out, she was in her bed of blood.

      Thanks for your thoughts on the Tyrion-as-Dany’s-Future/Past-Son theory 🙂 I know Tyrion has been speculated before as the third head of the dragon (there are theories speculating if he is Aerys’s son with Joanna and Joanna was raped by Aerys) so that part of this theory has found some footing among parts of the fandom, it seems. Myself, I’m not a big believer in alt-parentage theories for Tyrion because I think there are enough secret Targs running around but I don’t know any better than anyone else 🙂

      Or Varys is a Mermaid.

      But what an image it conjures up!

      It has pictures of Stannis Baratheon.

      As Efi suggested, I like to think that these were uploaded by his social media manager Melisandre! 😉 I think Stannis would be the real fun type to upload text images ala grammar tips amongst the R’hllor pushing, enticing Stannis portraits, and human sacrifice.

      I think it’d be an instagram that would have something for everyone!

        Quote  Reply

    274. kevin1989,

      Truly, thank you for sharing the links you have with me! I do enjoy reading these kinds of theories, even if I don’t always agree — it’s like a puzzle! Trying to put these pieces together, looking into how these insane prophecies might come together 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    275. kevin1989,

      Sure! I had forgotten about that detail!
      And now Google search machine has officially included Google Books and Google Scholar and all the grammar textbooks and Lexica Stannis has ever read. And as of 8.6 it appears that it also has Google Earth, for spotting dragons and other missing objects/people.

      And people say that Bran wouldn’t be a useful king… It’s calumny I tell you, of the worst kind.

        Quote  Reply

    276. Adrianacandle,

      Same here, I just like reading them. And some I like for to come true or would be amazing if it would be true.

      Efi,

      But the question is. Does he know what’s beneath the sea? Patchface know oh oh

        Quote  Reply

    277. Lord Parramandas:
      Ugh, same old whining from so-called “fans”… I really need to learn to never come back here because any time, I only get immensely pissed off at all the negativity I see here.

      What’s becoming a huge turnoff for me is when posters come here and claim that they are some kind of authority on who’s a true fan of GoT and who isn’t. Especially when the judgement is based entirely on how frequently other people agree with your personal opinions or not or how sycophantic they are towards the show.

      Requiring everyone to have the same opinion that you do in order for you to enjoy yourself says a lot more about you than anyone else.

      If you pine for the good ole’ days where everyone echoed the same opinion as you and now you can’t handle a difference of opinion, then feel free to start your own website with your own rules.

      If you’re going to leave, then leave. If not, then quit your bitching and find something else to talk about other than “Lost”, pretentiously promoting your own episode reviews, and whinging that you’re not getting enough attention.

        Quote  Reply

    278. kevin1989: But the question is. Does he know what’s beneath the sea? Patchface know oh oh

      Speaking of Patchface, you might be interested in this…! (I know I post a lot of AltShiftX videos but… I really like how he lays out stuff… and his voice…)

        Quote  Reply

    279. kevin1989: This one I put in a new tab. So I can watch it later today, I wonder what he will make of it. oh oh.

      I think you’ll like it! It goes into a lot of strange, chilling stuff — even a prediction Patchmake makes for the Red Wedding which is… oooooooh… goosebumps 🙂

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    280. Adrianacandle,

      That Red Wedding and Blackwater I already suspected when reading it. And that he has some sort of looking into the future. I always found him creepy in an interesting way, but never saw that it could be this creepy.

      Connected to the WW I can see happening. The Grey Scale maybe but wouldn’t that be more logical for another character to spread just arriving in the Stormlands. But what if when they burn Shireen alive the grey scale is being put into the magic. Meaning that Jon’s Resurrection will be “corrupt”.

      And it seems like Patchface has predicted Shireen’s death. Come with me under the sea.

      And are we certain that the drowned god is part of the White Walkers. And not the other way around? What if the drowned god is the ultimate enemy to be defeated. And Nissa Nissa will be about that.

      About the theory that the CotF is connected to the Other’s I read in the first book that the CotF could talk to the death. The Others can raise their corpses as thralls (wight) mindless bodies. The lord of Light can raise the death with loss of mind but still they are living. The drowned god gives rebirth.

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    281. kevin1989,

      Maybe!!

      I do think the drowned god and the Others have different origins, though, but they may be connected to one another…?

      Maybe all of the religions are connected?

      Maybe they are all one religion? But go by different names?

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    282. Adrianacandle,

      Great minds think alike 😉

      I think I will post those 2 links (Patchface and Essos cities) to a buddy of mine who watch the show, felt that season 5 till 8 was unpar, but is wondering if he will ever buy the books. So maybe that will read the books.

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    283. Mr Derp: What’s becoming a huge turnoff for me is when posters come here and claim that they are some kind of authority on who’s a true fan of GoT and who isn’t.Especially when the judgement is based entirely on how frequently other people agree with your personal opinions or not or how sycophantic they are towards the show.

      Requiring everyone to have the same opinion that you do in order for you to enjoy yourself says a lot more about you than anyone else.

      If you pine for the good ole’ days where everyone echoed the same opinion as you and now you can’t handle a difference of opinion, then feel free to start your own website with your own rules.

      If you’re going to leave, then leave.If not, then quit your bitching and find something else to talk about other than “Lost”, pretentiously promoting your own episode reviews, and whinging that you’re not getting enough attention.

      You know, maybe I should actually take pleasure in the fa