Kit Harington says ‘Jon is dead, get used to it’ and Lena Headey appears on Jimmy Kimmel

Jon Snow

Now that Season 6 filming has concluded we are starting to see more media appearances by the actors.  Kit Harington has a new interview with Digital Spy discussing his latest project and his return, or lack thereof, to Game of Thrones in Season 6.  And Lena Headey appeared on the Jimmy Kimmel show using her Cersei persona to garner laughs.

More after the jump. MAJOR SPOILERS!!! 

Kit Harington revealed to Digital Spy that he wasn’t bothered by all the fans who just can’t believe he is gone.

​I was hoping that there would be an outcry of ‘why?’ and ‘oh god, no, no’ rather than ‘thank god’. That was the right reaction as far as I was concerned!

He goes on to say that he hasn’t filmed Game of Thrones “for a while”. Of course, you may recall that we exclusively revealed back in November that Kit was seen filming on the Winterfell set with other major characters, which wasn’t all that long ago. Kit then added this amusing quote:

“People didn’t want me to die, but he’s dead. So there you go, everyone has to get used to it.

If that doesn’t just tickle your fancy this next bit might. Lena Headey appeared on Jimmy Kimmel.   She read some of the snide and angry quotes from the ladies on the current season of The Bachelorette while channeling Cersei.  Nobody sneers better than Cersei.

222 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. So he’s definitely some kind of ice zombie, right? I mean, that would mean he’s technically telling the truth, and the “for a while” comment could mean any way you define ” a while”.

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    2. Kit is pretty screwed. No doubt he knows that the secrets pretty much out, and he has to keep pretending otherwise – and likely would get in trouble if he didn’t. I find the while thing hilarious, but I guess it could be pretty frustrating. On the last stretch now though.

      It’s gonna be a struggle for the actors that have a lot of scenes with him to do press for S6 and have to give a brief outline of what their character will be up to. If they only have some scenes they’re fine, but if they have a lot (or not a lot but their characters plot is heavily involved with him)..
      Sophie and Iwan (possibly Carice – she hasn’t been seen much) might find it tricky.

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    3. Haha just watched the interview. The interviewer throwing Kit under the bus their. Bet he didn’t think he was gonna be clued up on season 6 knowledge. :’)

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    4. As we all know, “is dead” does not have to mean “stays dead”

      Yeah, its a tough spot for him. I’ll be curious to see when we reach the tipping point where it transitions from keeping the narrative into full on publicity for the new season and how that impacts the quotes we get from the actors

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    5. Lena is lovely and brilliant! She really enjoys playing Cersei, as we all can see.
      I feel sorry for Kit – everybody knows he can’t say anything, why keep asking? Just to see him in trouble? I’m not at least worried and I’m sure he said the truth: Jon is clearly dead and he’s staying that way… until April.

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    6. Damn…

      I was watching Lena last night and I remember when I watched Downey and Evans from Captain America Civil War they surprise released a trailer…

      I was crossing my fingers that we’d get a surprise teaser or something.

      Oh well, I think if history proves itself correct we can at least hope for a teaser with some new footage, if not a full blown trailer, by mid February.

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    7. Lena was hilarious as always last night. I guess Kit has to keep up the act for those that are living under a rock until the new season starts or just don’t follow the filming leaks.

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    8. I have a feeling HBO will reveal, if not Jon’s res, Mel doing something in a S6 trailer.

      Anything revealing, or hinting, that Jon will be revived could easily become one of the most watched Youtube videos in a day.

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    9. Shy Lady Dragon:
      Lena is lovely and brilliant! She really enjoys playing Cersei, as we all can see.
      I feel sorry for Kit – everybody knows he can’t say anything, why keep asking? Just to see him in trouble? I’m not at least worried and I’m sure he said the truth: Jon is clearly dead and he’s staying that way… until April.

      I agree!!

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    10. I am in lust with Kit. Is he off the market? I wouldn’t want to be in his position when the truth comes out. It’s like the worst kept secret in history.

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    11. Lena, what a hoot that was. Lovely to see her again and look at her body, she is really in shape too. Love, love, love me some Lena/Cersie trash talk.

      For Kit. He is in between a rock and hard place at this point. Truth is, the leak from production set back in November proved he was on set in Stark gear. Either that or we all have lying eyeballs. I really don’t care, I sort have some to like the cat and mouse of it all. Indeed, Mr. Harington, we will wait for season 6.

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    12. Newbietothegame: Well,it is quoted on the top in bright red. Don’t read the post if you don’t want to get spoiled?

      I think he means he thought there would be a spoiler and there wasn’t. The spoiler was the reference to the fact that WotW revealed a while ago that

      Kit was seen filming and Jon must be, therefore, alive at some point in season 6.

      .

      Joffrey’s Cunt,

      See above.

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    13. Kit is presumably going to have to sit out the early promotion for Season 6, so that’ll be a bit of time off for him that he’s otherwise have been expected to be available for (though he’ll have to invest some in doing all the advance interviews for when Jon comes back).

      Given that he’s historically been one of the main faces around that time, I wonder if, e.g., Maisie will be asked to shoulder more. With Bran coming back, it would be nice to try to get Isaac out there a bit more too.

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    14. Arthur:
      Newbietothegame,

      Well,only if they got married somehow because if they didn’t Jon would still be a bastard right?

      Also, don’t you get the surname of your father so wouldn’t it then be Jon Targaryen?

      I am not sweating the small stuff, LOL. As long as this handsome devil with his dark curly hair is back; either as a Stark, Targ or whatever. Sorry, old woman with a Jon crush here.

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    15. What a twist…

      Jon isn’t a Snow, isn’t a Stark, isn’t a Targaryen, but a Harington now.

      You’ll be always our Jon Snow, Kit Snow..i mean Jon Harington…for fuck sake…

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    16. I know a few people who really don’t think that Jon is coming back. What’s amusing is how they criticize it for bad writing: you don’t spend 5 seasons developing a main character with such strong parallels to another main character and then just kill him off! The assumption is that either: 1) well, what do you expect from fantasy? or: 2) Harrington must have gotten better offers elsewhere and caused them to alter the show’s course.

      I’ve said nothing but “Well, they did send Melissandre back to the Wall.” Well, that always gets a blank look, so I add: “You know: the Red Woman who likes to burn things.” That gets an “Oh, her! But what can she do?” And then I say: “Remember how that priest from her religion brings people back from mortal wounds?” And that gets an “Oh, I’d forgotten all about that! I need to watch the old seasons again….”

      But I’ve said nothing about Harrington having been filmed on set: and they obviously know nothing about it. I suspect that only the hardcore fans know this. So, it probably will be a big surprise for many people.

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    17. Poor poor Kit.
      He’s never going to be able to admit it until the inevitable happens!
      Can’t wait for season 6!
      GIVE US A TRAILER HBO! ! ! ! ! !

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    18. Newbietothegame,

      LOL… I hear ya!

      It is possible that Rhaegar got married to Lyanna. (He is a prince and could have easily got whoever/whatever was needed to have them wed by that ToJ location).

      So, I could be wrong about all this I am not as well versed on Westeros noble family law stuff as many of the people on this site, wouldn’t that make his surname Targaryen and put him right after Dany as true heir to the Iron Throne?

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    19. Arthur: wouldn’t that make his surname Targaryen and put him right after Dany as true air to the Iron Throne?

      It would put Jon ahead of Daeny: Rhaegar’s heirs would take precedence over his siblings under the rules of primogeniture.

      That written, convincing enough people that Jon really is Rhaegar’s son AND that Rhaegar and Lyanna were legitimately married would be two uphill battles. A voice whispering from a tree, or a lone nobleman from the North who claims to have been there would not be enough.

      Still, I wonder if the Wildlings might proclaim Jon to be the King Beyond the Wall or something like that. This would make Mel’s visions once again true in a way that she was not able to anticipate. (She’s really good at getting visions that violate Occam’s Razor insofar as she personally is concerned.)

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    20. Wimsey,

      Wow, thanks for the insight.

      Sounds to me like that is where this is heading…

      Just have to figure out how Dany’s storyline falls into place with the knowledge that Jon Targaryen is the true heir and also someone of her family by blood.

      What will Dany do?

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    21. I have to believe with this endless insistence that this is just a play on words that does make sense with what happens (technically). Kit is LYING outright – Jon Snow probably does die and when he comes back he might seem that different but we’ll find out he’s not Jon Snow. Basically, exactly what everyone has been saying for months (or years lol)

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    22. Newbietothegame,

      I am not educated on matters of royal bloodlines but Wimsey is and per his last post Rhaegar’s children would have 1st dibs for the Iron Throne over Dany.

      So if Rhaegar Targaryen was lawfully wed to Lyanna Stark (which is highly plausible considering the amount of time spent at the ToJ and their love for one another and the romance that must have been involved, this is some Helen of Troy stuff) Then Jon Targaryen would right now, be the lawful heir to the Iron Throne.

      Question now… If someone explained this to Dany, what would her reaction be? Support Jon or oppose him?

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    23. Arthur: Just have to figure out how Dany’s storyline falls into place with the knowledge that Jon Targaryen is the true heir and also someone of her family by blood.

      I doubt that it will come up for two big reasons. One, I doubt that many people will learn of it. Two, I doubt that Jon will ever think: “Now I have to claim the Iron Throne for my true father.” Instead, Jon will finally understand what Ned Stark (who will always be Jon’s father in Jon’s mind) went through for all of those years, and how Ned had to make the compromise between one dishonor (lying about Jon’s origins and the truth of Lyanna’s “abduction” by Rhaegar) and another dishonor (allowing an innocent boy to be killed simply because of who his father is.).

      At some key point when Jon, Daeny and the others are betwixt and between the Walkers, R’hllor, the Old Gods, and who-knows-what-else, this is going to be huge for Jon: and in some way, the internal compromises that Ned Stark had to make will inform Jon about what he should do to resolve some “dishonored if I do, dishonored if I do not” dilemma. My bet is that the crux of the over-arching story will culminate from Jon and Daeny making parallel choices of this nature.

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    24. YgritTe,

      I’d love to see the play and visit London with you, Dee convinced me that it would be possible. But not this year, I’m afraid. On the one hand, I have to raise some money for the whole trip (I have some debts I pay every month). And even if I could do that, I wouldn’t be able to say which dates I’d be available. I must attend some symposiums and conferences (work duty, the director of the institute was clear about it) and the dates have not been decided yet. All I know is that they will be in March, April, May, June and October. Nobody expects me (or any of my colleagues) to have presentations to all of them, but we must be present at least as audience. Holidays can be got in July, August, September. Believe me, I’d like to skip them and travel around Europe!

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    25. Lol, Kit’s face though. ‘I don’t get paid enough for this….’

      Lena zinged Jimmy so well last time – so glad she’s back! 😀

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    26. Arthur,

      Like George said about Howland Reed: ”He will appear, eventually.”

      So i think this means that the very end. After the greatest battle. HR will come and tells for everyone who is there yet that Jon is Rhaegar’s son. The dragons-dragonriding thing will happen before this (if happens). That will confirms that Jon is a Targ, because the dragons(or just one of them) will like Jon. No one will know why. And then Howland comes and tells why. Dany will lives too, she is a woman, Jon is a man. You can figure out this…

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    27. Just a thought:
      Jon’s Body is put in the ice cells inside the wall. Maybe he could become something like a wight, if the body is inside the wall.
      Then he is somehow brought back by Melisandre, who has red eyes in the books. Maybe she uses different spells than Thoros and turn Jon’s eyes red as well in the process. The combination with the blue wight eyes would result in purple Targaryen eyes.

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    28. Wimsey,

      If there is still a wall …

      Newbietothegame,

      nope, first in line, right before his aunty Dany; Rhaegar was the heir to the throne, and his heirs are next in line – boys before girls. Only if all of Rhaegars heirs are dead does the throne go to siblings, i.e. Viserys and then Dany. So IF Jon is not only Rhaegars son but also a legitimate child, he is the heir to the Targaryen throne. Should this be true and Jon have legitimate children, they, too, would come before Dany in the line of succession.

      Arthur,

      I wonder that, too. Her whole fight to claim the Iron Throne is based on the assumption that it is her birthright and her responsibility as the only legitimate Targaryen heir. If she finds out (and believes) that Jon is the true heir, not her, she’s going to lose the one thing she uses to legitimize her conquests and other actions. I think one of two things can happen:
      1. She realizes that it’s Jon’s duty to unite and appease the realm, she accepts it -albeit reluctantly- and after a period of feeling lost finds a different purpose. Maybe Jon then dies and she is the heir in the end afer all. Or maybe they rule together. Or maybe Jon gives up the throne and she ascends to it. But not because she believes it’s her right, but because the throne is given to her through Jon.
      2. She changes her claim and her opinions, as so many people do, to fit her ambition. She could, for instance, argue (to herself or to others) that she has ruled a society while Jon has not, and that she therefore is more capable. Or she could be of the opinion that Jon, who was raised by the enemy, is therefore not fit to rule as a Targaryen. Or she could reason that as she is the mother of dragons, she is a truer “Dragon” than Northern warg Jon. Or … you get my meaning. I think this would have to happen at least partially subconsciously, as Dany is not the kind of cynic person who changes her argument even if she knows she’s wrong. She usually believes in the things she says, so she’d have to believe in this, too.

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    29. Arthur,

      Something tells me that, if it turns out Jon even wants to rule that is, she wouldn’t just go softly into the night. After having the feeling of entitlement for so long and all she’s been through to achieve her dream. On the other hand, she doesn’t seem the kind of woman to make an enemy out of a legitimate heir/relative who knows nothing of her, simply because she views him as a rival for the throne, at least until they meet and she deems him unworthy for whatever reason. But it might turn out to be that she is not convinced of his heritage and labels him a pretender, whether due to true suspicions, or to rationalize her continued claim to the throne.

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    30. Lena is the BEST! She seems like such a lovely lady, delicious and she really seems to truly love her character, which is always great to see.
      I love watching her on Game of Thrones – would be a SHAME to see her go. It just wouldn’t be the same without her.

      As for Kit, I’m one of the only ones who don’t care if Jon Snow is gone for good. I mean, I liked him, but I can do without him too.

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    31. Shy Lady Dragon,

      I understand. I got overly excited for a moment there 🙂 The price is more than I expected at $1300. Also the flight is 10-11 hours where for some reason I thought it’d be like 6 or 7.

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    32. Maester Murks,

      Ooh, I love it. Not very plausible, but nice thinking. Purple and glowing – that’s got to be a sight to be seen.

      Arthur,

      Somehow I have a feeling that they won’t end up together. It’s too straightforward/cliche for me and, I think, GRRM.

      But if so, it would make sense in more than one way. Dany is barren through magic. Jon is going to be a somewhat magical being. Maybe that’s the only way Dany can ever get pregnant again: not by a normal man, but by a man who’s got some life-bringing magic flowing through his veins.

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    33. dee,

      I also don’t think Dany is the type that would try to harm her own blood (if she ever gets the news of this and believes it).

      I can see Jon waving his rights (or whatever the term would be) and instead going back home to Winterfell.

      The Wall would no longer be there and Jon would be seen as some kind of savior by the Wildlings, so he would probably declare and be granted by Dany some kind of article stating that the north is free and independent from the Iron Thrones rule but also a valued and trusted ally.

      So much fun fanfiction to be had in regards to how the Jon and Dany storylines end.

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    34. When I woke up here in the UK munching on my toast, and he pops up on my TV, toast was down. Ears on! But yeah I loved when Bill (the interviewer) asked ‘does his spirit live on?’ And kit replies ‘who knows’ ? And when he points out Kit is well rehearsed, #that grin ? Quite amusing.

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    35. Wimsey: I doubt that it will come up for several reasons. One, I doubt that many people will learn of it. The big issue will be for Jon.

      I ve always had the exact same notion about Jon parentage in the story. Or the importance of his parentage within the story. But it could be more plot relevant as well.

      I do wonder if events in the Seven Kingdoms will perhaps shape out in a similar fashion to what might happen in the North. It seems like Jon would have to take control of the North in order to have an army to fight against the White Walkers. If Rickon or Sansa becomes the leader in the North and they fully support Jon then it wouldn’t matter, he would obviously stand behind his siblings.

      What Jon really needs the most is people to fight against the White Walkers, if he wants true support, he might have to place himself in a leadership position.
      If this situation occurs in the North then the same might apply to the rest of Westeros. If he wants true support for his cause he might actually have to try and claim the throne. It likely depends on if Dany would support his cause. He obviously wouldn’t want more unnecessary wars and deaths, but if he is the only person with potential power who will fight for the cause, then he might do it.

      I think it might be another possible direction for the story.

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    36. Boudica,

      I agree. I think that would be the only reason for Jon to actually try and claim the Iron Throne/leadership of Westeros. I don’t think he would want power per se, or that he would feel entitled and believe that people need him to govern them. The only reason he would seek that kind of power is to protect the realm and its people (and thus, most likely, mankind) from the Walkers. Once that’s done, I doubt he would want to keep it.

      Isn’t it some sort of wisdom that the greatest leaders are the ones who have power thrust upon them? Or is that Star Trek (which often is a font of wisdom, mind you)?

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    37. Arthur,

      Didn’t Aerys named Viserys as his heir? Either way polygamy wasn’t used for how long and no one would accept that in today’s Westerosi situation. Jon’s chances if he wants to ever sit on the iron throne rest on Daeny’s will to legitimate him. He has no army, no family name than can appeal to nobles. Of course proof of his parentage remains to be seen. What would it be?

      If she believes in this and legitimize him. Her reaction. She would be happy, try to marry him as she thought she would’ve if Rhaegar’s son was alive, closer to her age. Would she step aside? No way and it would be one of the worst things George could ever do. She didn’t fought that hard to at the end step aside, because of someone else. Daeny would make him her Queen’s consort, question would Jon ever want to be that or to sit on it.

      r-hard,

      First of all it’s not a sure thing both of them will survive the final battle. Yes, because if dragon takes a liking to a person= he’s a Targaryen, right? Do we have any proof Jon will ride a dragon?As far as I can tell none so far. Being man and woman. You need a bit more than this rather simplistic version of it. Can’t deny romance, because we have evidence pointing to it, but to end end with the biggest cliche of them all. Not exactly George, but maybe he’ll surprise us.

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    38. dee,

      Dany from the show has demonstrated the ability to listen to counsel and change her mind accordingly. she changed her mind when Jorah convinced her to negotiate with the leaders of Astapor and Yunkai rather than punish them after she reached Meereen, she changed her mind about her father and being ruthless in enforcing justice after a single conversation with Barristan, she changed her mind about burning the masters including Hizdaar and admitted that she was wrong about closing the pits, and finally she was easily persuaded into not killing Jorah. Which other king or queen has shown this much acceptance to others’ counsel or flexibility in recognizing his or her own errors in GOT’s world? Not Robb, not Robert, and certainly not Stannis or Jofferey! Dany is the only leader so far who has shown willingness to change her mind and admit her mistakes in comparison to other leaders. People talk about her sense of entitlement but you have to have been completely glancing over her chapters if you couldnt recognize the weight and the burden she was feeling about ruling Westeros. She doesnt desire or want the throne for its power. She correctly believes that she should rule because its her family’s seat and it is. the IT was created by the Targaryens and Westeros was united into 1 fold by Aegon so there is nothing wrong with her thinking. Its the same with Stark children believing that Winterfell belongs to them even though you can say that the Boltons won against them much like Robert won over the Targaryens.

      As for how Dany will view Jon..she will most likely be wary of him initially and rightly so. She would be dumb to immediately believe that hes her brother’s son. She will need proof but once she has that I believe that she will accept him. You cant forget that Dany idolizes Rhaegar and there have been few instances in the book where she mentions how lonely it is to be the only Targaryen in the world. Her scene in the house of the undying in season 2 showed us that to her family is more important than power (she almost gave in to being with Drogo and her son while she had no problem turning away from the iron throne). Not to mention that in the books, i always got the impression that shes currently looking to find dragonriders to help her in her conquest and she believes this person needs to have dragon’s blood. So I cant see her hating Jon.. However, i can see Jon giving up the throne to her because by then she will be the ruler of both Essos and Westeros and her reputation as a conqueror will elevate her in the minds of the nobles and common people Westeros

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    39. Geralt of Rivia,

      in my opnion it’s sure and you can’t do anything against this

      no, there is no proof that Jon will ride a dragon

      and i’m sure about the Targaryen dream-trio rule at the end with Master Samwell, if i wrong that’s my bad, but i’m sure

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    40. See ya in next season, Kit. I’m really eager to see this new Jon we’re getting. Soulless, ruthless minded person ready to unleas his rage on Boltons.

      r-hard,

      I think it’s far from sure thing and especially when George is writting this story. Jon, Daeny and Tyrion as rulers or co-ruling? Nice dream, but i’m afraid it will just stay like this “a dream”.

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    41. *pats Kit soothingly* There, there, Kit. The ruse is almost over. Poor guy. Though he handled it as well as can be expected.

      And Lena was absolutely hilarious. Love her.

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    42. Not sure if anyone already posted that, but another interview with Kit. He talks about his role of Dr. Faustus and obviously GOT and the most interesting part is around 5:33 when moderator confronts him that photo of him emerged from the set. Poor Kit trying his best afterwards.

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    43. Matthew The Dragon Knight,

      That is so funny! That guy called Kit “Jon” at the end. An honest mistake that probably happens sooo often.

      I can almost guarantee you that as soon as GoT ends Kit is going to get together with some consultants and set out to recreate a new image for himself to shake off the “Look it’s Jon Snow!!!” reaction he always gets.

      Does anyone else think Kit will probably his head and go with the bald look? Maybe that’s to extreme but man, what would you do if everyone looks at you and instead of seeing you, sees a character you play on a TV show.

      Don’t get me wrong, all of us would love to be in Kit’s shoes right now, making tons of money in a profession he dreamed of making it in.

      But once GoT ends, Kit’s number one mission is going to be to reinvent himself via totally new look.

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    44. Wimsey,

      Oh no.. I troll the casual viewers hard instead, it’s too much fun!

      “Yes Jon is dead in the books. No, I don’t accept it. The actor WILL be back and you know as much as I do, all he keeps going on about is that he’s dead…” Some now think that Jon is going to be the leader of the White Walkers and Battle Dany.. it’s SO fun to hear them discuss that!

      I love all this parentage discussion… R=L=J spoilers beyond

      But – I’ve never understood why people think Jon will sit on the Iron Throne, marry Dany, Rule Westeros, blah blah blah. Good warriors don’t make good Kings, remember Robert? Jon is also not the Targ heir and never will be… no amount of tree stories or Ghost Neds will convince people of that. If that’s what Westeros needed, we’d only have Dany as a protagonist.

      The important thing is he is the Song of Ice and Fire genetically – which combines two things… Wargs and Dragonriders. That’s it. That’s all.

      Bran and Arya could help him Warg the other two Dragons
      Dany and Tyrion could contribute knowledge too, and FAgeon if you believe in that (I don’t)

      But in the end… the only one who is part Warg part Dragonblood is Jon.

      It IS in the end the conventional, classic “one orphan boy was born with the gift to ride dragons, and save the world from a magical faceless evil”

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    45. Kit is so damn sexy! I don’t care what name he has next season, as long as he has his beautiful dark curls! I don’t know exactly what changed, but since season 4 I really started to like him.

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    46. Arthur,

      I agree w Wimsey on Jon being first in line legally IF he is legitimate. However, legitimacy means jack in the game of thrones without noble support / armies. Plenty of “legitimate” medieval rulers have been supplanted by “illegitimate” relatives. And Jons legitimacy is brought into question by the fact that Rhaegar was already married. It’s a fuzzy question given the fact that the original Targareans took multiple wives, but I believe that the laws of the 7 prevailed and eventually polygamy was outlawed. Much like incest. On the other hand, Rhagear could have taken steps to have his first marriage annulled. In any case, given the fact that it’s all been hush hush, I doubt that Jon would supplant Dany. Given her past strategies, I imagine she would marry her nephew if he presents an obstacle. right now she seems to be the stronger contender, though Jon Snow is the archetypal hero of unknown lineage. I can’t wait to see how GRRM deals with all of this. I’m hoping he finds a way to defy convention here and Jon doesn’t become king. I love Jon, but I’ve come to expect twists from the author.

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    47. Geralt of Rivia:
      Not sure if anyone already posted that, but another interview with Kit. He talks about his role of Dr. Faustus and obviously GOT and the most interesting part is around 5:33 when moderator confronts him that photo of him emerged from the set. Poor Kit trying his best afterwards.

      LOL, when he calls him Jon at the end…

      I would love to see this play, very interesting story.

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    48. dee:

      Newbietothegame,

      nope, first in line, right before his aunty Dany; Rhaegar was the heir to the throne, and his heirs are next in line – boys before girls.

      Actually, the boys before girls rule wasn’t followed by the Targaryens, was it? I know the Dornish didn’t, and I didn’t think the Targaryens did, either. Rhaegar was right after Aerys because he was the eldest, older than Dany. And then Rhaegar’s children come before Dany in the same way that Prince Charles’s children (William and Harry) come before Prince Andrew (or Anne or Edward) and that Prince William’s children (George and Charlotte) come before Prince Harry (or Andrew or Anne or Edward or any of their children). The first born of the first born of the first born of the first born … always come first, except some reigns will skip girls if there is a sibling boy.

      It took me a while to find the good part of the video, so if anyone else is watching, it is 5 minutes 11 seconds in, which I’ve tried to set this link right at: https://youtu.be/aDUS92IQ4zA?t=5m11s

      Was dude trying to quote, “You know nothing, Jon Snow?” Not only did he mess up the name. Twice. But he messed up the first part of the quote, too. Bless.

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    49. Arthur,

      There is nowhere written that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married legitimately. There is no known witnesses alive or saved records to this. That means that Jon if the equation is right is not a legitimate Targaryen but a bastard Targaryen. Deanerys on the other hand is the daughter of a king, Aerys II. So she is ahead of him in the succession of the throne.

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    50. dothrakian raven,

      I know this hence the caveat I put fourth…

      “So if Rhaegar Targaryen was lawfully wed to Lyanna Stark (which is highly plausible considering the amount of time spent at the ToJ and their love for one another and the romance that must have been involved, this is some Helen of Troy type stuff) Then Jon Targaryen would right now, be the lawful heir to the Iron Throne.”

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    51. he hasnt worked on GoT “for awhile” (we see what you did there), Jon is “dead” and we have to “get used to it” ….while he is sitting there in COMPLETE Jon hair and beard..

      yes Love..we believe you.. 😉

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    52. Arthur,

      I don’t know if Dany is the type that wouldn’t harm her own blood. She watched her brother and only known blood relative be murdered in front of her. And if you read the Arianne Winds of Winter sample chapter, George may be hinting at something for the future. Arianne wonders why Dany didn’t try to help Viserys before being killed and the chapter ends “…she is the Mad King’s daughter…and how do we know…” and the person she is talking to interrupts, “We can’t know. We can only hope.”

      No guarantee this is foreshadowing of anything though, and no guarantee they go this route in the show if she indeed turns insane in the books. But it’s there to point out.

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    53. ladywolfsbane,

      Good warriors don’t make good kings – necessarily! Good kings must be good warriors, in fact, if they want other countries not to invade them. And Jon was proving to be a good and wise leader as Lord Commander. Even George questioned a reporter who said Jon made a mistake that led to For the Watch, but then he backtracked and admitted that not foreseeing FTW was likely a mistake. But he said or implied that everything else Jon did as commander was what he had to do to be a good ruler. He was in a tough spot and doing what had to be done to save the realm.

      The only possible person we’ve seen who is more politically savvy than Jon is Tyrion, but Varys has pointed out why Tyrion cannot rule (not beloved by the people, unfortunately). Dany has made many more mistakes than Jon while ruling, even though she has the best of intentions. She has little politically savvy.

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    54. dee: I agree. I think that would be the only reason for Jon to actually try and claim the Iron Throne/leadership of Westeros. I don’t think he would want power per se, or that he would feel entitled and believe that people need him to govern them. The only reason he would seek that kind of power is to protect the realm and its people (and thus, most likely, mankind) from the Walkers. Once that’s done, I doubt he would want to keep it.

      Isn’t it some sort of wisdom that the greatest leaders are the ones who have power thrust upon them? Or is that Star Trek (which often is a font of wisdom, mind you)?

      I could see Jon doing something Cregan Stark, taking control of the situation and then going straight back to the North.

      There is something about having power thrusted upon you. Jon basically experienced that when he became the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. When it comes to making a claim for the Iron throne it would have to be more calculated on his part. Jon would be taking on something that he really does not want to do. I think it goes to idea that the person who does not desire the throne is properly the right person to rule.

      Geralt of Rivia: Didn’t Aerys named Viserys as his heir? Either way polygamy wasn’t used for how long and no one would accept that in today’s Westerosi situation. Jon’s chances if he wants to ever sit on the iron throne rest on Daeny’s will to legitimate him. He has no army, no family name than can appeal to nobles. Of course proof of his parentage remains to be seen. What would it be?

      If she believes in this and legitimize him. Her reaction. She would be happy, try to marry him as she thought she would’ve if Rhaegar’s son was alive, closer to her age. Would she step aside? No way and it would be one of the worst things George could ever do. She didn’t fought that hard to at the end step aside, because of someone else. Daeny would make him her Queen’s consort, question would Jon ever want to be that or to sit on it.

      I dont think it would matter if Aerys disowned Rhaegar or not. The line of succession is just always followed through the firstborn male child.
      That being said Dany has come a long way to claim the Iron Throne. Jon does not exactly look like a Targaryen and he might not have enough proof, I think she would find it really difficult to believe his claim.
      And even if she did actually believe his claim she could always just claim the throne for herself as a conqueror. Being the first in the line of succession is not necessarily the most important factor, we have seen this phenomenon clearly through Stannis. A lot of people might have a claim to the throne, but it is about the support you are able to garner. Or it is just a good example Varys’s riddle, power is where people believe it is.

      Jon would never just want to claim the throne because of his birthright, but if the situation should happen where Jon would have to make a claim on the throne due to gathering support for the White Walker invasion, then Dany might not have it all her way.

      It seem quite simple for Dany at this stage, she has an independent army and best of all she has dragons.
      Jon really does not have anything at this stage. But that could change. If Jon could get the support of the North then might get the support of the Riverlands as well, and with Sansa’s connections he might get some Vale support as well.
      I personally dont really believe that Jon will ever become dragon rider, but someone like Bran might be able to control a dragon in the future.
      And it also depends on what Dany does when she lands in Weseros, if she releases thousands of Dothraki screamers upon Westeros, then some people might be more then happy support another Targaryen claimant.
      But that is a lot of if’s and maybe’s. The whole situation might evolve very differently. I do think Dany might be more inclined to listen too stories about the Others. She has dragons and she has witnessed more extraordinary events.

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    55. dee:

      Isn’t it some sort of wisdom that the greatest leaders are the ones who have power thrust upon them? Or is that Star Trek (which often is a font of wisdom, mind you)?

      Ah, referencing Worf’s role in Martok’s “ascension” at the end of DS9 Season 7, I see! Always nice to see a fellow fan.

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    56. Bareeq,

      A Dany fan, I see. I agree, she has gotten much better in the listening department, and she is certainly better than most kings and queens at listening. For me, that doesn’t mean I must root for her. Just because the other kings and queens are worse doesn’t make her a saint, or not entitled. She is flawed in a way that, in my opinion, makes her not the best choice when it comes to taking responsibility for the lives of other people.

      My ideal solution would be if Planetos would unifiedly abolish the feudal system and introduce, if not democracy, a sort of meritocracy or at least oligarchy as a stepping stone. I want to see the iron throne melted down and made into plows and other tools to help Planetos recover from the long winter and the destruction that the wars and the Walkers wrought.

      Will it happen? Probably not. An oligarchy (like, a counsel of Lords instead of a king/queen) is possible, I guess. But I’m not holding my breath.
      Should I therefore root for the least selfish person with a supportable claim to the throne, even if said person is a conqueror and someone who will hurt people for not supporting/fighting against her claims? Absolutely not.

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    57. doug,

      Good point about Dany allowing Drogo to kill her brother but I feel like this is a big one off, because her brothers actions really left her no choice.

      She didn’t allow him to die because she wanted any power that him living would deny her, he was just an asshole who repeatedly threatened her life. She even forgave all those acts but when he put a sword to her belly and threatened the life of her child… Dany’s instincts kicked in and you can just see it in her eyes that there is no coming back from that, he was dead to her at that moment, even if he lived.

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    58. Poor Kit, this really is impossible situation for him given we know, and he knows, there are pics of him on set out there, bet he’s counting down to the start of the season almost as much as we are. Imagine the conversation with HBO a couple of months back: “Kit, we’re going to put your supposedly final dead body on the first poster for Season 6, but remember, don’t tell anyone you’re back!!!!”

      If R&L were wed then Jon is definately the Targ heir before Dany, if he is a bastard then he is not. In world though, it would be nearly impossible to actually prove he is legit – everyone who was there at the TOJ is dead except Howland, and who will believe him anyway? Ditto with Bran having a vision via the Weirwood net. Or Rhaegar’s harp being found in the Winterfell crypts, it proves only that he and Lyanna were together at the TOJ, not that they were married, and everyone knew that anyway. There have been issues with Targ succession over the centuries – Blackfyres, Princess and the Queen – and I wonder if George is setting up something similar here. Esp when you add (f)Aegon’s claim into the mix as well. Whether or not Jon is legitamite – therefore whether Dany is the true Queen – may have repurcussions in Westeros after our story ends. (I’m in the camp that thinks Dany will be Queen at the end and Jon will not want the throne even if it is his for the taking). Dany on the throne, but her detractors secretly championing Jon’s line and his heirs may be a bittersweet ending as it suggests further potential wrangling over the throne to come in the future.

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    59. Lysarra:
      Kit is pretty screwed. No doubt he knows that the secrets pretty much out, and he has to keep pretending otherwise – and likely would get in trouble if he didn’t. I find the while thing hilarious, but I guess it could be pretty frustrating. On the last stretch now though.

      I can imagine he took the Cristopher Marlow play, among other things (and I say this because if I remember correctly his mom, who is a playright, named him after Christopher), because the play starts rehearsals in March and it will be running from April onward, so he’s going to miss all the GoT press events.

      In the British interview he almost fumbled… “It’s going to be a great season 6… or so I’m led to believe”… Poor guy, I think he probably is even more eager than we are that the countdown clock moves fast!!!

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    60. Jon Snow is dead. So who is Kit playing then? We just have to wait, but it looks like Jon Snow. But is not.

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    61. I Dream of Spring:
      In world though,it would be nearly impossible to actually prove he is legit – everyone who was there at the TOJ is dead except Howland, and who will believe him anyway?

      Would it be impossible? Are you sure George hasn’t sussed out a way to make that happen when he’s worked so hard to make everything else happen? Are you sure there isn’t a certificate somewhere or a Targaryen artifact entombed with Lyanna that proves the marriage alliance?

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    62. Minna:

      As for Kit, I’m one of the only ones who don’t care if Jon Snow is gone for good. I mean, I liked him, but I can do without him too.

      Nope, you are not the only one, but you certainly are among the few…

      And as the High Sparrow would say “you are the few, we are the many, and when the many stop fearing the few…” (just kidding… I could not help using this quote) ;P

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    63. Ginevra,

      Good point!

      I was thinking that too… Isn’t it possible that some kind of wedding ring (or something in the Westeros world equivalency).

      Some kind of royal decree (sealed with Rhaegar’s personal seal).

      Isn’t something of that nature possible? Hidden away in Lyanna’s tomb or someplace sacred in Winterfell. Maybe Howland Reed was giving it to keep hidden.

      Like I said this is pure speculation but don’t you think with the intense romance involved and both Lyanna and Rhaegar not being complete idiots to the rules of nobility, wouldn’t you think they would make moves to protect the integrity of their love and children?

      Like I said, its high plausible that Rhaegar summed a priest, or whatever it would have been, to have them legally Wed under the laws of men and gods.

      And if this is so, Jon Targaryen, under the laws of nobility, is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. What he does with this right is anyone’s guess and how Dany reacts to this possible truth is also anyone’s guess.

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    64. Arthur,

      I just think that George went through an awful lot of trouble to set this up to have him be someone else’s bastard and to have it all not matter in the end game. I’m 90% certain it will be Jon Snow atop the iron throne at the close. And Robin Hobb (whose work George called “fantasy as it ought to be written”) said she thinks so, too, in this chat with George.

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    65. Ginevra,

      Dany in the books is a sheltered 13 year old who’s never had decent teachers/mentors (Like Jon and Tyrion had). Despite having a ton of easy power she was actively trying to learn how to rule better, mistakes and all. I think she had great potential… or at least she did until she got swooped up and sidetracked by a Dragon…

      Jon thought he could, as the Lord Commander – abandon the Wall and go to Winterfell when dissension was everywhere and get away with it… that’s even more silly/ambitious than abolishing slavery in a slave-export society…

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    66. ladywolfsbane,

      In the show, Jon’s abilities as a warrior have been underscored unlike his administration skills. In the books

      the guy may be less of a warrior but he’s definitely more of a ruler than many people give him credit for: he strikes a deal with the Iron Bank; he balances different “political” forces -the wildlings, Stannis and his men, the NW, the Lords of North with whom he maintains contact as Lord Commander; he made administrative decisions as to how to accomodate all the disparate visitors currently at Castle Black, he organizes the restauration and “manning” of some castles along the Wall; he enlightens Stannis on the kind of negotiations he can conduct with the mountain clans in the North so he can consolidate his army against the Boltons… For someone with little training, he seems to have a great notion of what a ruler should do!”

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    67. GhostCR,

      I agree.. they’ve taken some of Jon’s best politics out of the show. He’s the one that sent Sam away, swapped the babies on Mel, played Stannis and the Wildlings like a lute (nod to his daddy there, haha) etc.
      Jon was also a twit when it came to the Pink Letter who screwed up with a silly speech and got himself stabbed. He didn’t deserve to get stabbed nearly so much in the show. I felt bad for show, Jon – book Jon I’d have stabbed myself.

      But I’m saying in the end… Jon had Ned to guide and teach him… too noble a man for Westeros, but still a great leader/father figure. He didn’t have “little training” he had loads of it, with Robb as an example of something to aspire to! Poor Dany had her wacky brother as an example of how to “rule”, her best supporter was a spy, and to everyone in her life she was a pawn. She’s even told she might end up crazy. Book Dany did not do that bad all things considered…

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    68. Boudica,

      Boudica,

      “I dont think it would matter if Aerys disowned Rhaegar or not. The line of succession is just always followed through the firstborn male child.”

      This is the rule, but it isn’t always followed. I’m not an expert in the history of the 7 kingdoms, but there are plenty of exceptions to this rule in medieval history. Sometimes a bastard son supplants his legitimate siblings. Sometimes a younger son supplants his nephews despite being disinherited by the previous ruler. It always comes back to the nobles and the armies that they bring with them. It certainly helps to be a man, but again, it comes back to the support that the claimant has. This is the best off-season debate so far!

      I’ve always believed that Dany would somehow save the kingdoms from the WW with her dragons. If she comes to rule, it would because of her role as a savior. I also believe that she is an imperfect ruler (as is Jon IMO). Furthermore, she is very ambitious. If she decides to go to Westerns I could see her fighting Jon if he didn’t support her. She has become convinced of her righteous rule. Its evident in everything she does and says. She believes it is her destiny and that no one will do it better. In the end I think they rule together or not at all because they die saving the kingdoms. Maybe they have a child and Tyrion or someone else acts as regent? I have no idea, but that would be fun.

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    69. I believe Jon and Dany will end up together, but before the story is finished, one of them, or both for that matter, will end up dead. For good this time.

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    70. Mitch,

      Wow,thank you for informing us because i didn’t watch the video at first,so i guess that confirms it for those who thought she won’t appear .

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    71. Philip,

      No for Jon and Dany hooking up,it will be cliche and stupid whether one or both of them dies. I expect they will be allies but nothing anymore than that .

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    72. Ginevra: Would it be impossible?Are you sure George hasn’t sussed out a way to make that happen when he’s worked so hard to make everything else happen?Are you sure there isn’t a certificate somewhere or a Targaryen artifact entombed with Lyanna that proves the marriage alliance

      I said ‘nearly’ impossible, not totally impossible. Wedding rings? Not in Westeros. Some kind of document? Surely it will have degraded in the Crypts, and the rest of Winterfell has been burned. And although Targs have practised polygamy in the past, that was quite a while ago, would it be accepted now? Not saying it wouldn’t, but that these are issues anyone pressing Jon’s case will have to deal with. Especially as I he will be a reluctant king (unless he comes back from the dead very differently). If Jon does ascend the throne Dany’s supporters will not be happy, and if Jon’s legitamacy isn’t proved irrevocably/legally, but there is a fair amount of evidence for it and he has supporters based on this evidence, Jon’s supporters will not be happy about Dany being on the throne. My point being that either Jon or Dany’s supporters could end up feeling wronged – assuming, of course, Jon is actually legit, and George doesn’t solve the problem by having them marry each other. This could then cause ongoing arguments in-world after the series ends, not to mention in the fandom! I’m sure George doesn’t want to tie the series up in a neat bow and leave the fans nothing to disagree on and discuss.

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    73. Philip,

      I think this is likely. One or both dead. I don’t really believe someone will sit the Iron Throne in the end; however, Jon and Dany’s child could take a seat somewhere important, e.g. Winterfell which might become the center of the kingdom once the Wall comes down. I hope the climate changes for good at that point.

      Jon will probably die in the end, but not before he leads a real army, not <100 crows.

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    74. I Dream of Spring,

      There’s a pretty interesting theory out there about Lyanna having been buried with his harp. I thought it was a bit goofy when I started reading t, but by the end, it seemed pretty reasonable. I recommend checking it out if you get a chance.

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    75. dee: If there is still a wall …

      Well, I suspect that most of the Wall will be there for a long time. However, I would be surprised if there was not a several kilometer wide hole in it at the very end of the season.

      Boudica,

      Yeah, GRRM has been pretty upfront that the theory of story-telling to which he adheres. Basically, we are heading to some climax where the main characters (presumably the Big 5, although possibly just Jon and Daeny) will feel that whatever choice they make is wrong in some sense. I suspect that a big part of the “bittersweet” that GRRM has promised is not that the main protagonists will die, but they they will have to live with what they did. As the Moment told the Doctor, that is the punishment!

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    76. ladywolfsbane,

      Jon gets stabbed for the same reasons in both book and show: in the eyes of the “Nationalist” members of the Night Watch, Jon has committed treason by letting the Wildlings through. (In the book, “Brutus” flat out tells Jon that he is committing treason by doing this.)

      My bet is that this is going to be a huge issue in Winter, in both media. The show emphasizes the fact that the NW members did not like Jon’s decision: but the book also emphasizes that Jon knows that a lot of other people are not going to like what he’s doing. I suspect Jon is going to be less than popular in general for much of this season: to paraphrase what Jon’s story parallel probably will hear, Jon might have been proclaimed King Crow, but he’s pretty much the king of nothing right now.

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    77. bluedragon,

      I am not totally aligned with your thinking, but pretty close. I also believe that neither Jon or Daeny will sit on the Iron Throne, in fact, I don’t even know that the Iron Throne survives to the end, let alone this pair.

      There are three players in the game that I think could and will make a big difference, one of them is a main character and that is Tyrion. He could have great influence over either or both Daeny/Jon. One other is Varys. We still don’t really know his story and what he has yet to offer but it could be something of significance….his little birds are and have been everywhere, who is to know what secrets he hides. Last is Littlefinger who appears to know something about Jon or the least about Rhaegar and Lyanna. He is still a small part, but player on the board. And don’t count out Doran Martell, he has something brewing as well. Most people seem to be focusing only on Jon and Daeny and that is natural, but not as regards to the other players who are satelliting about them.

      I believe the “bitter sweet” ending that GRRM has spoken of is exactly that. Not the love story that some have in mind. I think the “new order of things” after the defeat of the WW/Others will go to the younger generation. Even tho by our standards Jon and Daeny are very young….they have already gone through more than most adults have in their short lives and they have more hell yet in front of them.

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    78. Demonmonkey: Targareans took multiple wives, but I believe that the laws of the 7 prevailed and eventually polygamy was outlawed. Much like incest. On the other hand, Rhagear could have taken steps to have his first marriage annulled.

      Can you imagine the seething, wild rage the Martells would have felt had this been done? Added to their existing rage over the public, notorious disrespect shown to Elia, and by extension, to the Martell family, by Rhaegar already? Here is their lovely, worthy, beloved sister and her children, shamed and destroyed through no fault of her own, but by the whims of her Targaryan husband.

      Doran Martell would have argument not only with Lannisters and Baratheons, but cause to want to see the downfall of the Targaryans, ALL Targaryans, including Dany. And thereby, we have another of Chekov’s Guns, hung in plain sight, right from the beginning, yet ignored by all who are mooning over the “love” story of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Although it has never been mentioned as a thought of Doran Martell, the longing for revenge on Targaryans must exist to the depths of his soul.

      So, sure, come on Dany, come to Dorne. The Martells are so mad at the Lannister/Baratheons, we will help you. Will they? Or is there a more sinister plot brewing? Is Dany in danger from the Martells? It would be obvious to anyone who took a moment to see the whole thing from Elia’s perspective. It might explain the original hype over the Sand Snakes.

      It’s pure conjecture, but a possibility, no? Then again, if that were the case, the showrunners would have done a better job with the Sand Snakes. Doran would never have put his only son in danger by sending him to King’s Landing with Jaime.

      More on topic, I’m glad to see Kit in any way, doing any thing. I really like this kid and respect his work and wish him well. Jon or no Jon. Under the pressure and circumstances, he seems to have handled himself wonderfully, especially for someone so young. But I sure am glad to see that he still has the Jon hair.

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    79. This discussion about the rules of succession in Westeros will be about as fruitful as discussing the rules of professional wrestling. It’s sorta handy to know what is supposed to happen, but we know it won’t. This is the story where incest kids completely unrelated to the last king sit the throne, and where a majority of Baratheon bannermen supported a third son because the second son was kind of a jerk.

      The books might get into the proper succession a bit, but it’ll be exactly the kind of detail the show will drop as unnecessary exposition. It’s not necessary to explain that Robert’s grandmother was a Targaryen when most of the audience gets that a successful rebellion means a new king.

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    80. Greenjones: Yep. She was the only unconfirmed recurring cast member still kicking around IIRC. So this is that settled at long last

      Has it been confirmed for sure what part Ian McShane will be playing? Was there any word of him being seen filming? anywhere? I’m not being snarky, just wondering if I missed something. I was so excited to see my favorite Deadwood c*****cker cast, I gobbled up every word about him. But I don’t remember who he was cast as.

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    81. So, if Jon is Targaryen, then what’s he doing running around the woods with a direwolf?

      I imagine they’ll kill Ghost so that Jon can get airborne.

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    82. Also, I really doubt that Jon will change his name in any way. We’ve already seen him turn down Stark when the name itself meant more to him than the castle Stannis was also offering.

      That said, I do think there’s a solid chance his “real” name isn’t even Jon.

      It’s easy to imagine that Rhaegar the-dragon-must-have-three-heads Targaryen already had a name picked out, and it’s hard to imagine that Lyanna wouldn’t name her baby in the little time she had. And yet Ned very obviously chose the name; it’s something he’d name his own son, and something Robert would approve of. It stands to reason that the very first act of pretending his nephew was his son to protect him was to rename wee Daeron/Aemon/Baelor.

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    83. JCDavis:
      bluedragon,

      I am not totally aligned with your thinking, but pretty close.I also believe that neither Jon or Daeny will sit on the Iron Throne, in fact, I don’t even know that the Iron Throne survives to the end, let alone this pair.

      There are three players in the game that I think could and will make a big difference, one of them is a main character and that is Tyrion. He could have great influence over either or both Daeny/Jon. One other is Varys.We still don’t really know his story and what he has yet to offer but it could be something of significance….his little birds are and have been everywhere, who is to know what secrets he hides. Last is Littlefinger who appears to know something about Jon or the least about Rhaegar and Lyanna.He is still a small part, but player on the board.And don’t count out Doran Martell, he has something brewing as well. Most people seem to be focusing only on Jon and Daeny and that is natural, but not as regards to the other players who are satelliting about them.

      I believe the “bitter sweet” ending that GRRM has spoken of is exactly that.Not the love story that some have in mind. I think the “new order of things” after the defeat of the WW/Others will go to the younger generation.Even tho by our standards Jon and Daeny are very young….they have already gone through more than most adults have in their short lives and they have more hell yet in front of them.

      I can buy all of this. Jon and Daeny/Dany are old, old souls. Easy to see them supplanted in the end by younger counterparts.

      Martell’s are angry that Elia and her children were murdered. I don’t think they are upset about Rhaegar’s infidelity. After all, they understand passion. I am sure Rhaegar would have defended Elia and his children by her to the death and at the expense of even Lyanna if it came to that. Perhaps he understood that his best chance for heirs under the circumstances would be through Lyanna as his father had done so much damage, neither himself nor Elia and her children were going to survive the rebellion.

      Martell has a long game, but I don’t think that long game is aimed at revenge against Rhaegar. Just don’t feel it.

      I agree: Tyrion and Varys are key to end of story although they are likely to die too. Littlefinger knows something, but he is not likely to be believed or have proof; however, to be sure, he will use what he knows to his advantage.

      I don’t know that Jon and Dany will fall in love. Perhaps they will simply see each other’s value in the struggle and make alliance out of practicality and then feel something more. That something more might never come to anything, adding to the bittersweet ending.

      And Arya is tremendously important, somehow. I hope she isn’t just like Alia in Dune, someone who helps her brother/cousin at her own expense.

      Not to forget Bran. I think many fans make a big deal about their particular favorites, but it is clear that many, many characters have critical roles to play.

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    84. Kilgore Tully,

      I think you’re right. Ned gave him his name after Jon Arryn. Rhaegar might’ve wanted different name in order to recreate three-headed dragon as you said. Aegon, Rhaenys and he probably expected a girl and not a boy. So Viserys, Viserion, Visenion? Some textual evidence for Aemon. But it doesn’t matter, does it. He is Jon and would remain till the end of the line.

      Dwm,

      Would Rhaegar’s harp prove anything? As far as i remember Jon was afraid to enter crypts in his dream or he is not wanted there. Something important lies in the crypts but what it is. Usually only Lords of Winterfell do have statues in the crypts, but Lyanna is for some reason an exception. Only George knows.

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    85. OK iam late to this I will try to read all the comments before that where does this

      Jon doesn’t want to rule and dany only wants to rule is coming from …

      When one is dreaming about having a house with red door and simple life and thinking if only RHaegar’s son was alive I could have married and he would have ruled. …..while the other was dreaming killing his brother amd shouting ” I the Lord of winter fell”. ..

      doug,

      And what a brother he was the one who abused her whole life..the one who said he won’t mind if entire khalasar and their horses fuck her as long as he gets what he wants …

      Its not like he was just having a drinks and fun while khal drogo kills and dany helped him …

      He was threatening to kill her son and her …bared a steel which is considered rule breaking in vaes dothrak …its not like she didn’t try to stop him doing anything stupid …she did all she could for the brother that was lost ages before ..
      She didn’t even smile for weeks after he died ….you can see how much guilt she is having over his death …

      So if arianne considers her mad she will be mad right …she thinks that but we as a reader knows what happened is viserys fault and not dany …if what characters believe is only true how about dany thinking that Ned is also like those of tywin robert and jon arryn in the killing of elia and her children … Is she right was Ned part of it .

      Ginevra,

      I don’t see how …of course dany’s mistakes are higher because the amount of region she rules compared to NW

      Let’s talk about what jon and dany did right …
      Manning the wall – trains more knights
      Broker a deal with IB – broker a deal with lamb people …
      Everything he has done so far in his ruling dany has done the same in her region

      And its not a big thing he knows about lands and people and mountain clans …he grew up there and he has the teaching of high born …

      Let’s talk about his decision to attack winterfell with wildlings ..the wildlings are shown how they can’t face an small army and win ..Mance is dead and stannis with his army is dead …Worst winter is there ..and they don’t have enough food supplies to weapons to lay siege at winter fell… While Ramsay will sit inside the castle until they were dead …but yet he decided he will somehow gain a victory over him…when there is even more threats at the Wall with the WW and Nw member who hate the idea of wildlings ..
      The best scenario would have been to wait at the wall …pick a place to have a battle and strengthen your forces and wait for Ramsay to come in that winter …in this way he would have a chance at winning Ramsay ..
      But now its goinh to be chaos at the wall with mutineers and wildlings…

      Similar situation happens at meereen …dany wants to go to astopor and help them in the battle but she knows if she goes out of meereen she will loose meereen and she will be in the middle of nowhere and will be easy pickings for her enemy ….so what she does is stay and deal with the internal threat and manages to stop the killings and gains the meereenese and now they are fighting for her against the yunkai and winning the battle ..
      She asks barristan to keep the forces ready right after she signs a peace agreement because she knows she can’t trust them ..

      Take quentyn for example .,she was wise enough to see he had only come for her dragons and a marriage is not the only option to make the alligience work ..there can still be other ways to do that ..

      Both jon and dany have shown to be very observant .,keen to learn new things.,constantsly questioning others and themselves .,very quick at learning things and on top of it both are good at heart ..but at the same time both were inexperienced and failed in some of their cause but have learned a huge lesson in their failings..
      So I only can look forward of them coming back strongly and fiercely after what happened and correct those early mistakes ..

      To me and it seems the author also views them as equal in both character and plus and minuses and failings and achievements …but if you are going to talk about one is best and other not ..then Iam forced to argue against jon because out of these two dany never had any teaching or father figures and yet manages to be as good as jon mainly because of her own actions and thinking and wise observations .,intelligence and learning …so I admire her than jon

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    86. I will be deeply disappointed if he isn’t dead-dead. Not because I don’t like him or the character, but because it would be cheesy and untrue to the overall setting.

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    87. Anon,

      He’s only half Targ, the other half, the dominant half is Stark, the blood of the wolves. His mother was a she-wolf, it doesn’t surprise me he was gifted Ghost by the Old Gods, he was also gifted with warging abilities. Then again, Ghost, may well just be a gift from another Targ, the one hidden in that cave, the one with white skin and red eyes.

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    88. Kilgore Tully,

      The rules of succession in Westeros may not mean much to the majority of people there. The common folk could probably care less and would route for whomever they think will make their lives easier.

      However, to characters like Jon and Dany these rules would mean everything.

      That’s the only reason why we are talking about this.

      What will Jon and Dany do if it is revealed that Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?

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    89. Anon,

      He grew up in North his whole life, raised by Ned’s and Starks values. Mother was a she-wolf. Most of all he’s a Stark at heart. He might take on Targaryen surname and be known in the history as jon targaryen if he will ever sit on the Iron throne or for whatever reasons he might need that. Targaryen surname is valued a bit more in the south than Stark. He has no real emotional connection to dragons, Targs. He might will have through Daeny, but too little and too late for it to be dominant. Pretty much the same way Ned will always be his true father and no matter how many swords, titles or names they gave him. In the end he’ll have to embrace his targaryen side to balance things, but in his heart will always be in the North.

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    90. It’s going to be so hilarious when it’s revealed next season that he is dead and staying dead.

      His appearance on one of the battlefield sets in Stark clothes was obviously a joke. Where would he get the clothes from, considering all that’s left of the Starks and their household is four children scattered on two continents, all younger than Jon? He doesn’t have access to the Winterfell clothiers, even assuming they’re still alive. That other scene in Winterfell with the giant better be a joke or it will be worse than Dorne last season. Remember that sources saw White Walkers looking out of windows in the Braavos sets. I don’t think the WW are going to be in Braavos next season. The film crews love playing jokes on the fans.

      But in the end, it all comes down to a simple question: why would Kit, D&D, and HBO execs all blatantly lie and say that he is dead and staying dead? It doesn’t create more suspense, in fact it creates less suspense. It doesn’t increase talk about the show, in fact it decreases talk about the show among the casual fans. Had they left the ending of last season ambiguous, or refused to answer questions about Jon, that would have created a mystery that casual fans would be talking about. (They know that die-hard fans like us will talk about the show regardless.)

      And if Jon turns out to be alive, they look like total jerks and will not have their comments taken seriously in the future. I don’t see what’s in it for them.

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    91. I have a feeling Jon isn’t going to come back as just Jon Stark or Jon Targaryen. I think he’ll actually be dead, and even if he comes back, he will no longer be human. George said there should be consequences for dying. Jon coming back as a legitimate Stark or Targaryen heir isn’t a consequence.

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    92. dee,

      What’s with you saying a dany fan its that a way of insulting arguents against you .

      Who said anything about you should root her because she is saint and not entitled..

      The very comment yes she is gotten better at listening department shows you are not aware of her story fully …she is shown listening to the people and advisors from the start …listening and doing as what they say is two different things…

      For someone who is against the the successuon laws and claim
      You seem perfectly OK with jon’s

      How come in every situation you mentioned that dany is at bad light and jon ends up sacrificing and good and saintly..

      1.why she must realize its jon duty to unite the realm and appease the realm….why can’t she do it she is Like tyrion said above all a rescuer ..and if she finds the threat she is going to Want to help ..

      And the comments like she accepts it albeit reluctantly after a period of time shows the clear bias you have and against the text .

      2..now why should she accept someone who is not looking as a targ as his cousin starightaway..ofcourse she is going to have doubts …its her family …and she has been suffering the effects of being last of her family ..
      When Aemon says ” targ alone in a world terrible thing ” shows how much she is having hardships being alone…but that’s the moment of RLJ foreshadowing right. She fought for her house and its right …why should she step down at the first word that this is her cousin…she should be presented with evidence and it’s jon’s job to prove his claim not the other way around …

      Its not like she is thinking in the books if only rhaegar’s son is alive she can marry him and he can rule so she can stand behind him ..
      And what more she is believer of rhaegar and lyanna’s love and knows how much rhaegar loved. Lyanna. All one have to do is give her the evidence and that too not for her but for the sake of world to believe his claim ..

      As for her ambition and thinking she is the only one that can rule better than anyone …
      Iam still waiting to provide quotes on these where she thinks like that …

      Whereas I can provide quotes how much jon wants winter fell and how entitled he is and how he is having dreams of killing Robb and shouting that he is the heir to winter fell in ADwD even after he is dead…

      Now I understand the reasons behind Jon’s dream…but if this is something happened with dany people will twist this into some sort of ambitious mad queen with paronia.

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    93. Mitch,

      Good to see that Ellie Kendrick is getting involved in the promotion for the show again! As you say, most of us were expecting that she would return, but she was never spotted on set, so we didn’t know for certain. Furthermore, all of the various interviews and articles touting Bran’s return kept mentioning that Isaac Hempstead-Wright and Kristian Nairn were coming back after a season’s absence, without mentioning Ellie Kendrick. This led to me persistently muttering at my computer screen in frustration “And Meera, damn it! Where’s Meera?

      It will be interesting to see where Meera is at mentally in the new season. I imagine that she’ll still be in a pretty bad place, despite the time jump (having to slit your own brother’s throat to spare him from an even more grusome death at the hands of undead skeletons will do that to you). However, I think she’ll play a crucial role in keeping Bran grounded as he deals with his training and his visions. She’s the only “normal” person he can talk to.

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    94. Jared,

      I’m so happy to see that Meera will really be back. I hope they give a good storyline to her now that her brother is gone. I’m seriously curious to know how she is dealing with the consequences of the events of the Season 4 finale.

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    95. dragonbringer,

      Yes, Jon would hav to prove it to her, but i doubt he’ll ever want to sit on IT from his own will or the he needs to do it.Other question will he ever share this secret or take it to his grave.His mother always seemed to me like something he’ll have to deal with, something that will affect him more than anything or anyone.He struggled with his bastard status,Ned lied to him and his birth or affair between Rhaegar and Lyanna led to death of thousands od people.It’s entirely possible people will proclaim him as Rhaegar’s son due to evidence that shall rise much like aar for their purposes more than his own.

      And yet he declined Winterfell, Stark name and Val in the books.In the show Stannis offer was also tempting, but Val wasn’t a part of that.So no he doesn’t want that as much as you seem to imply.You used dream which is by no means 100% bulletproof for your own purpose to compare them.
      I agree with Daeny.She wants peaceful life, but iron throne is her duty to her family, she feels obliged to do it.On the show she seems to be a lot more focused on Iron throne than peaceful life.Also more ruthless locking doreah in the vault, throwing nobles of Meereen to dragons and joking about it, less self-doubting and more power hungry.If this is for to be more badass more power to them, but i prefer book daeny in this.Maybe he meant them on the show.

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    96. Dwm:
      I Dream of Spring,

      There’s a pretty interesting theory out there about Lyanna having been buried with his harp.I thought it was a bit goofy when I started reading t, but by the end, it seemed pretty reasonable.I recommend checking it out if you get a chance.

      I’ve read the theory. Unless I’m misremembering it, I’m not sure how it can be used to prove Jon is legitamite. Sure, it proves they were together, one could even argue it proves Jon is their son, but I’m not sure how it proves they were actually married and Jon was legitimately concieved.

      I’ve also read the theory about Lyanna being buried in the crypts with a statue like the old Kings of Winter point to the fact the she was Rhaegar’s queen – ie they were married. I can’t remember who died first – Rhaegar or King Aerys? Of course for Lyanna to be queen Rhaegar would have had to outlive his father, if only by a few days.

      I’m reminded of Dany’s prophecy re the crowds cheering for the mummers dragon -ie (f)Aegon. Will (f)Aegon be swept to the throne at some point on a tide of public opinion? In the end, the perception of legitimacy for either Dany or Jon maybe more important than actual legitimacy. It’s working (thus far ) for the Lannisters.

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    97. Jon doesn’t have to lie. At this point, he’s dead. He can maintain this approach, not really give anything away, and also not lie in the process.
      Easy enough.

      Also- who wants to fuck a virgin?! LOL

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    98. caliopesnow,

      I can’t wait for Dr. Faustus either 🙂 Kit has been talking for a long time about his desire to return to the stage. He also recently did something called “The Chidlren’s Monologues” with other actors on stage, which tell the dramatized stories written by African children. Kit played the “voice” of a young girl who is raped by her uncle. It was really good. You will be able to find the clip on Youtube or BBC, as they did a story of it. The trailer of a film called “Brimstone” also recently came out, where he is starring with Carice Van Houten, and that looks bloody good too.

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    99. Geralt of Rivia,

      Just the other day DennessFan came with awesome post about how she sees dany if showwatchers only can see how she doubts herself and her actions…I don’t see how a book reader doesn’t ..
      They are making her ruthless and yes I do believe that’s the way they think that its empowering and badass to act like that …they have nothing but changed dany into one dimensional Queen who sits in season 4 and early parts of season 5….power hungry ? Really I don’t see where that’s come from..

      I did say I think jon will be forced to take the ruling when the war does because of his deeds and he will see it as duty on the other thread right.

      If people can claim that choices and thoughts change for dany …why can’t it be for jon …he always wanted to became Lord of winterfell .,he was treated as outsider by cat .,why can’t he turn into more ambitious person after all he is going to come back from death and that’s going to change him ..because we know his arc right ..
      I only used that dream to show that if something like that happened in dany’s everyone will be screaming see how ambitious she is mad she is …not that matter because she is already called as ambitious mad queen who killed her brother and child in a blood ritual and smothered her husband and killed her elder brother by not born some years earlier ..
      Look how blood thirsty she is

      I guess people have this opinion that jon is fighting WW so he is noble and saint and doesn’t want the throne..while dany who wants the IT is ambitious arrogant entitled brat …

      And thats where i disagree. its all comes to what the characters know and their story arc ..

      Jon was raised a bastard and he only went to NW because that’s the only place left for him to raise not to fight WW.and help save the realm ..and he has been fighting wildlings for three books and now joined hands with them to fight WW..

      Dany is raised as the princess of the the family that lost thw kingdom and becomes last of hee family ..so she wants to take back what was once her family’s ..but that didnt stop her to help those slaves and similarly i dont see how it will change once she learns about WW ..

      The only difference is jon learns about WW after he joined NW and dany will know after she reaches westeros …

      you can See how much its been said about how a southern king or queen can rule the north or how they can’t understand the north and its people…do we get to see how a northern king or queen will not do well in south and how they don’t understand the people and religion. ..
      This double standards are too much when it comes to jon and dany everytime ..

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    100. crimethink:
      It’s going to be so hilarious when it’s revealed next season that he is dead and staying dead.

      But in the end, it all comes down to a simple question: why would Kit, D&D, and HBO execs all blatantly lie and say that he is dead and staying dead?It doesn’t create more suspense, in fact it creates less suspense.It doesn’t increase talk about the show, in fact it decreases talk about the show among the casual fans.Had they left the ending of last season ambiguous, or refused to answer questions about Jon, that would have created a mystery that casual fans would be talking about.(They know that die-hard fans like us will talk about the show regardless.)

      And if Jon turns out to be alive, they look like total jerks and will not have their comments taken seriously in the future.I don’t see what’s in it for them.

      You really think he’s not coming back?

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    101. r-hard: no, there is no proof that Jon will ride a dragon

      Well, if you wish to take that approach, then there is no point in conjecture!

      Jared: It will be interesting to see where Meera is at mentally in the new season. I imagine that she’ll still be in a pretty bad place, despite the time jump (having to slit your own brother’s throat to spare him from an even more grusome death at the hands of undead skeletons will do that to you).

      What might well have made it worse is that she’ll have been stuck for a year or so with only Hodor and Junior Tree God plus a handful of Children. At this point, she might have some serious log cabin fever.

      I Dream of Spring: I’m reminded of Dany’s prophecy re the crowds cheering for the mummers dragon

      The “mummer” there might not refer to the Dragon being a fake (it would be a serious plot lapsus if he is!), but that this is the Dragon that a certain erstwhile mummer is backing.

      crimethink: And if Jon turns out to be alive, they look like total jerks and will not have their comments taken seriously in the future. I don’t see what’s in it for them.

      All that this confirms is that Jon will actually be “dead” before Melissandre revives him. If that happens, then everything that they are saying will be strictly true. Moreover, keep in mind that the vast majority of the viewers are paying no attention to any of this. They will be pleasantly surprised to see Jon return, and the ones that binge-watch the series before next season might pick up on Thoros and what he can do. But they’ll not spend any time surfing the Internet to find out what is actually happening: they’ve got other things to do.

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    102. Jon is definitely deceased. It’s only a question of if he stays that way. I won’t believe he’s dead for good until I see his body turn to ashes on a funeral pyre.

      Some have also posited that Jon is indeed dead, and Bran just takes control of his body for whatever reason. As much as I dislike that idea, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility and would be in line with them saying he’s well and truly dead.

      Either way, his story is not finished just yet.

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    103. It’s Northern armor, I’m sure it’s not that difficult to obtain. The WW in the window was a dummy (not even an actor) and easily recognized as a prank. Hardly the same thing.
      Anyway, what are they supposed to say? “Oh we wanted it to be a cliffhanger/surprise, but since you asked…” Even for those of us who expect his return (in whatever capacity), it is still going to be a momentous occasion. I’ve been waiting four years to have my suspicions validated… FOUR!
      Besides, I have no doubt that he is dead (for now), so that doesn’t make the folks involved liars, nor petty, nor anything.

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    104. Just finished reading the entire thread. *phew*

      Anyway, in regards to

      what could be buried with Lyanna to prove she married Rhaegar, wouldn’t a marriage cloak do the trick? I think all the Westerosi marriages in both show and books have had the man cloak the woman to ‘bring her under his protection’, no? Would a cloak offer more substantial proof of marriage than a harp? [/ spoiler]

      I see some folks are still clinging to the belief that

      Jon will not be resurrected in S6. I can’t wait for the season to start so I don’t have to read people twisting themselves into knots trying to convince themselves and others that Jon Snow is really not that important to the story and that Kit being spotted in Stark armor is meant to trick spoiler seekers. LOLOL. [/ spoiler]

      As for finally getting proof that Ellie Kendrick/Meera was a part of S6 filming, count me in as those being relieved she’s not been forgotten. Though her part may be small, Meera was integral to getting Bran safely to Bloodraven and I hope they give her more to do this upcoming season than just sitting in the corner watching Bran become a tree god. At least give her a few scenes where she mourns her brother and grapples with the possibility that she may never go home again.

      Edit: Oh FFS, I give up trying to spoiler tag on this site. Gah!

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    105. Wimsey,

      Yeah.. we know we disagree on that. Even if the Et tu Brutus moment would have happened regardless of the Pink Letter… MY Night’s Watch would not have supported the revolt to the same degree. There would have been a Black Cloak Civil War! I think they were right to stab Jon, in the books. Not planning on changing idea that anytime soon…

      All this Dany will not trust Jon stuff… ummm… again… Dragons! Who cares what she thinks? In the books we have a specific Quentyn BBQ to cement the fact that you have to be a Targ to get the Dragons to like you…

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    106. How can they demand he still has to keep the “secret” after they put his face on the teaser poster???

      Unless this is some kind of torture… or joke. They’re probably fooling Kit, persuading him it’s still crucial not to reveal anything… 😀

      I can imagine the producers, in April, telling him the truth: “Hey Kit, we were just kidding… LOL! Did you really believe we were serious? You know nothing, Kit Snow…”

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    107. Ginevra,

      The Targaryens practiced primogeniture. Though there was some controversy in that practice when it came to Rhaenyra and her half brother’s war for rulership, Rhaenyra was ultimately killed and the male line continued to reign.

      The Dornish are unique when it comes to female rule precisely because of Queen Nymeria and the customs she and her people brought from the Rhoynar.

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    108. Arthur,

      The rules of succession would certainly be part of the conversation, and characters like Jon and Daenerys will talk about the rules as if they are important, but I really don’t think the rules will ultimately change what the characters do or try to do.

      Daenerys isn’t going to back off her claim because of the technically-better claim nephew no one knew existed, who was raised as a bastard of one the men she has called the usurper’s dog. Maybe she’ll have to do some politicking to placate the North, maybe Jon uses it as leverage to get support against the white walkers, but their goals aren’t going to change because, oh darnit, Jon’s the One True King.

      The whole eponymous game is about folks seizing power by any means possible, and we’ve seen what happens to those with blind faith in the rules. Of course that means the rules of succession have an affect on the story, one way or another, and are worth discussing; I am simply saying that they are a terrible way to predict outcomes.

      Unless it’s going to straight-up be Jon vs. Dany for the throne, I doubt the show even bothers explaining Jon’s claim. It’s there for those of us who pay attention enough to geek out. Meanwhile, the books will almost certainly reference it, even if it is just a POV thought. I’m okay with this balance.

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    109. I actually don’t care about the character that much. What bothers me about his death is how low quality it was, And the timing was terrible, it was obviously there only for shock value and being a cliffhanger.

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    110. Jack Bauer 24:
      The interviewer called him Jon instead of Kit at the end lol.

      In my haste, I did the same thing above. Facepalm. I meant to say that ‘Kit’ doesn’t have to lie to keep up this mummers farce- as far as we all know, Jon is currently dead.

      Regarding the laws of primogeniture and any potential struggle between Jon and Dany for the Iron Throne. Unless Jon.2.0 has a very different personality, I doubt he will want it. Certainly not enough to battle fellow blood for it. It is interesting potential conflict for us fans- but in the end I expect this issue to matter little.

      Then again, I’m not even convinced there will be an Iron Throne when this is all over…

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    111. He might not technically be lying. The Jon we knew might be dead, the one that’s resurrected could be a completely different person.

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    112. Al Swearengen,

      Could be, and if he’s a completely different person why should we care about him anymore. And I doubt he will care who his real parents are in a sentimental kind of way then, probably the only thing that’ll matter on that point is if he’s different in a way that makes him power hungry and will fight for the throne.

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    113. Simon,

      PtwP and Azor Ahai are supposed to be one and the same person. Most likely Daeny, not their child. Infact, on the show it seems Daeny can’t have kids.

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    114. Jon is dead. The Jon that we know is definitely dead and will stay dead, Kit is not lying. I am convinced that the creature in that Jon will be back as will be entirely different from the old Jon. He will be like a

      Lady Stoneheart

      .

      He will try to make justice, but for that he will use methods not legal at all. I think he will order that Olly (a child after all) be burned, for example. He will be a vengeful creature who tries to do justice, but not honorably like the old Jon did. He will hurt innocent people. That’s the plot twist, many people will be angry with

      Jon Stoneheart

      , but I believe it will be in that way.

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    115. Geralt of Rivia,

      Perhaps they are the same thing or perhaps they are a myth. As to having children ‘when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, then she will have children. Or in other words when the impossible happens. Dead men walking is pretty impossible.

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    116. Jon Stoneheart,

      Maybe if he stayed dead for a week or so, but if he gets resurrected right away, I don’t think he would go through a personality change that severe (see Beric vs. LSH).

      My take on the whole dead-has-consequences-thing: Having been to the darkness, and having been resurrected by a priestess of R’hollor, Jon‘s motivation to fight the WW could increase even more and get him ultimately to a point of „by-all-means-necessary“, which could mean that at some point he choses to become R’hollors champion to the detriment of something else he deems important.

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    117. Wylie,

      Jon will not come back as the same person, I’m sure. When they speak in Jon is dead, I believe it’s his personality that is dead, forever. The body with Kit’s face can return to life, but it will not be Jon anymore. Look at the promotional poster of Jon. He is alive but seems dead, soulless. Jon’s soul died with him, the body will be back just in order to do justice (or revenge?) at any cost.

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    118. BunBunStark:
      Edit: Oh FFS, I give up trying to spoiler tag on this site. Gah!

      You’re missing the opening part of the spoiler coding and have an extra space in the closing part between the slash and the “s”. It has to be

      [ spoiler ] the spoilery text bit [ /spoiler ]

      but without any spaces inside the square brackets. (I have recently been learning about websites and the programs that run them and suddenly understand why people struggle with it – if you don’t use exactly the right code it simply gets ignored by the program.) Good luck double bun one 🙂

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    119. Jon Stoneheart:
      Look at the promotional poster of Jon. He is alive but seems dead

      Well, that’s the whole point of the promo, to get us thinking about just that in between seasons. Doesn’t mean that it says anything substantial about Jon’s actual future.

      If Jon will have an important part to play in the end, I don’t see him do it as some kind of onedimensional revenge zombie. That’s why I think he gets resurrected right away.
      If he does, there is absolutely no indication that his personality would change severely. Beric did not change that much, only LSH did, and as I said, she was dead for several days and also Cat’s soul probably died while she was still alive watching Robb being stabbed to death.

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    120. There is some good discussion in these comments. My own view is that Jon will either go into exile at the end or he will take the iron throne through duty rather than any want. I think Dany dies before the completion of the story, I have a feeling she is the ultimate villain, there are enough hints she will end mad queen like her father and discovering someone with a better claim than her maybe the tipping point.

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    121. Satin,

      @Ginevra
      Exactly. After the Dance of Dragons, the Targaryend were even stricter in practicing male primogeniture than many other houses. See summery of an interview with George <a href="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Comic_Con_San_Diego_CA_July_20_232/&quot; HERE.

      Mr Fixit,

      That’s a shame. I was going to get those. I get by with my old DVDs, but I was looking forward to getting remastered BluRays at some point. Especially DS9 would profit from it, with it’s darker color scheme and lack of daylight.

      Thronetender:

      Doran Martell would have argument not only with Lannisters and Baratheons, but cause to want to see the downfall of the Targaryans, ALL Targaryans, including Dany. And thereby, we have another of Chekov’s Guns, hung in plain sight, right from the beginning, yet ignored by all who are mooning over the “love” story of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

      I never thought of it that way, but you are right. Rhaegar did slight Elia, more than once, and with his erratic behaviour brought death on Elia and her children. Of course it’s Tywin Lannister who ordered them dead. But the madness of the Targaryens started it all and if Doran is as rational as I think him to be, having things thought through and playing a long game, it does seem unlikely that he would risk everything for a queen who may or may not be just as mad as her father.

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    122. We “know nothing” Watchers on the Wall. My greatest fear is that what we “saw” and “heard” about is not what it seems at all. We can theorize all we want, but in the end we won’t know until April. I know what I’m hoping will happen, but if I’ve learned anything about this show and George’s writing it’s that nothing is ever what I expect it to be….I pray we aren’t all disappointed and you are right that my friends in some of your theories. I’d be hard pressed not to toss my tv if we have all been wrong….lol.

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    123. Ok, now you are willfully misunderstanding me. Why do you do that?

      dragonbringer: What’s with you saying a dany fan its that a way of insulting arguents against you .

      dragonbringer,

      No, I’m saying you are a fan of the character of Dany, no more, no less. I’m a fan of the character of Arya, so you can call me an Arya fan, and I won’t be insulted at all.

      dragonbringer: The very comment yes she is gotten better at listening department shows you are not aware of her story fully …she is shown listening to the people and advisors from the start …listening and doing as what they say is two different things…

      As far as I understand the English language, “listening to someone” more often than not implies that you actually act upon what they say, not simply listen and then do something else. Native speakers, what do you say?

      dragonbringer: For someone who is against the the successuon laws and claim You seem perfectly OK with jon’s. How come in every situation you mentioned that dany is at bad light and jon ends up sacrificing and good and saintly..

      No, I’m not ok with it. I don’t want king john either. And I believe i spent several lines explaining that I don’t want any monarchy at all. But if there has to be one, I’d like it to be someone who doesn’t want it.
      As for Jon’s saintlyness, no, he is not. I just use him as a point of reference because the books clearly draw his story as parallel to Dany’s, so the books suggest you compare them. I certainly don’t do that because I’m such a Jon fangirl. I like his character, but he is by far not my favorite.

      dragonbringer: And the comments like she accepts it albeit reluctantly after a period of time shows the clear bias you have and against the text .

      You really did not read my whole comment, did you? I said that IF Dany believes Jon is Rhaegar’s legitimate son, she COULD react in one of two ways: 1. she COULD accept it (not MUST), albeit reluctantly, and move over or 2. she COULD not wish to move over and find other reasons to justify her continued claim. Neither suggests that she MUST do anything, nor do I suggest that either would be right or wrong. These are speculations, not judgements!

      As for the rest of your post, you may root for Dany all you want. It’s your opinion. You may think that Jon is just as entitled, or even more entitled than Dany is, and that she is by far better equipped to be trusted with millions of lives. I myself will keep believing that she is not the best candidate to rule Westeros, that no-one is really equipped to rule that many people absolutely, that if there has to be an absolute ruler, it should be one who doesn’t crave power, and that I would be much happier with a ruling council and General Jon Targaryen defending the realm from the Walkers.

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    124. Satin:
      Ginevra,

      The Targaryens practiced primogeniture. Though there was some controversy in that practice when it came to Rhaenyra and her half brother’s war for rulership, Rhaenyra was ultimately killed and the male line continued to reign.

      The Dornish are unique when it comes to female rule precisely because of Queen Nymeria and the customs she and her people brought from the Rhoynar.

      Thanks. I honestly couldn’t recall, hence the question mark. At the fringes of my mind was Cersei bitching about how the Dornish and Targs allowed women places of power but that she was discarded. I couldn’t find the quote, so I wasn’t sure exactly what she said.

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    125. Simon:
      Geralt of Rivia,

      Perhaps they are the same thing or perhaps they are a myth. As to having children ‘when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, then she will have children. Or in other words when the impossible happens. Dead men walking is pretty impossible.

      I’m not a physicist but as a mathematician I’m decent at physics. If just after the sun sets, Dany starts traveling west – on a dragon, say – then she could make the sun rise again as long as she’s traveling faster than Planetos is rotating about its axis. And the sun would “rise” in the west, in the direction she’s heading; in the direction where it just set. And if she travels fast enough for long enough (she’d have to be going Mach 2 or 3 on earth, if I recall my calculations correctly, but Planetos may much smaller) then she’ll eventually get so far ahead of the sun that it will disappear or “set” behind her, in the east.

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    126. dee,

      When I say she listens to council and does not do as they say …i refer to her listening to the advice of the council and then decides a better solution based upon them not doing exavtly what they say ..

      Astopor for example .,jorah advises to buy the slave army and invade ..barristan advised to leave the place and go as begger to westeros and start gaining allies….but she listened to both of them and then even speaks with missandei and asks for her thoughts as well and then comes with a better solution ..

      Take meereen everyone from barristan BBP and daario and shavepate and greyworm and Reznak all tells hee different things she listens and then decide the best in that situation which others cant come up with it..

      I think my only gripe is that you keep insisting that she is power hungry and ambitious and thinking that she thinks as she is only one better at ruling…..so I see you don’t want to change your opinions on them or provide anything to prove for those claim as well…
      Let’s just leave this at it and agree to disagree and keep believing what each other believe like you said

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    127. If Kit was on social media I think the moment after Jon Snow’s inevitable resurrection has taken place in the forthcoming season he’d have probably written something like “Thank f**k for that!”, because he must be so sick of trying to pretend that he’s not in the show anymore and sitting through awkward interviews like this one.

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    128. Henry Gordon,

      How did Meera get inside there to begin with?

      Henry: First the bee sees the flower. And the bee thinks, that flower is beautiful! And delicious. That flower could be delicious. And then the bee buzzes over to the flower and into the flower. And the bee takes the seed from the flower. And it is good.

      Me: No, no, no. Not birds and bees and flowers and fleas. Meera! How did Meera get in there?

      Henry: Ah, well, first the reader sees the conspiracy. And the reader thinks, that conspiracy is beautiful! And delicious. That conspiracy could be delicious. And then the reader buzzes the conspiracy all over the interwebs. And the interwebs take the seeds of conspiracy from the reader. And it is good.

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    129. Ginevra,

      I had just written a post thanking you for the link to the chat that I enjoyed a lot, but my post vanished into nothingness for no apparent reason. I’ll try to rephrase it. I was very happy to listen to George talking and to find out many things about the lady author I had known nothing about (not even that it was a lady!)

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    130. Shy Lady Dragon,

      There is such a conspiracy against that author-who-shan’t-be-named! Remember when dozens of my posts about her were moderated away into nothing? But I’m glad I was able to share her video and that you enjoyed it. I hope you get to read her. I still have some of her books left, so I’ll be picking them up again soon. She’s quite prolific.

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    131. This Ginevra post should really be to Henry Gordon. I had it posted right to begin with but I’d read it wrong, thinking SLD had crowned Bran when it was really HG, and so I edited to “fix” it. Then time ran out before I realized my error. Sorry.

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    132. I almost wish they’d stop asking Harrington those questions. We all know what his answer is going to be at this point. We also all know (him included) that Jon will be back in some form. It just seems like a waste of everyone’s time to keep asking “Is Jon Snow dead?” or “Will Jon Snow come back?”
      I know every reporter wants that big moment where he slips up or admits it, but it has to be so damn annoying for him at this point.

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    133. Ginevra,

      Interesting idea we could of course have a figurative and a literal interpretation here.
      As for prophesy I’m not sure it will make any sense other than in an all purpose prophesy that can be applied to every one and every thing.

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    134. caliopesnow:
      Kit’s face in the interview… See you in April in S6 and at the theatre (Dr.Faustus looks amazing too!!) Mr. Harington
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiOOv1r42pQ

      Morna the Witch,

      I’m happy to read that some of the scenes have been rewritten. That may seem heretical to some, but there is a theory that Marlow didn’t write those bawdy comic scenes, and that they were added after he died by another playwright. I also quite like it when they transpose these 16th century plays into modern times; I think it helps soften the high language. A few years ago I saw Kevin Spacey as a Muammar Gaddafi-esque Richard III. It was fantastic. I can’t imagine I’ll ever see anything better, but the production team Kit is working with has a good reputation, so I hope it goes well.

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    135. All that this confirms is that Jon will actually be “dead” before Melissandre revives him.If that happens, then everything that they are saying will be strictly true. Moreover, keep in mind that the vast majority of the viewers are paying no attention to any of this.They will be pleasantly surprised to see Jon return, and the ones that binge-watch the series before next season might pick up on Thoros and what he can do.But they’ll not spend any time surfing the Internet to find out what is actually happening: they’ve got other things to do.

      Kit has said Jon is dead and gets to be with his ancestors and out of the cruel world. He has said he’s not in Season 6, though presumably he means other than the funeral scene and aftermath of FTW. That’s all going to be false if he’s resurrected.

      D&D have said Jon is “deader than dead”. HBO execs said that “dead is dead is dead”. These seem to be calculated to rule out a resurrection.

      Furthermore, I don’t agree that the NW oath can be voided by a temporary death. Remember that the vows end with “I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.” There could be an argument that that line contradicts the line about “shall not end until my death” in the case of temporary death (something the writer of the vow probably didn’t foresee), but it’s certainly not cut and dry.

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    136. crimethink: Furthermore, I don’t agree that the NW oath can be voided by a temporary death.

      Whether Jon considers his oath to be fulfilled could easily be a big story point this year. Jon is not the sort of person who looks for loopholes. Add that to the fact that he’s going to be very skeptical that he actually died, and I think that it would be very much in Jon’s character to feel that he’s member of the Watch until he is permanently dead.

      Moreover, there also could be the issue of what the Northerners think. As they stress in Season 1, they are very strident about enforcing the laws about executing deserters: and “I died, which ended my vows, but then I got better” might get some laughs before it gets the headsman, but it gets the headsman in any case.

      Indeed, what I am betting might happen is that Jon and some loyalists will basically be on the lam with the Wildlings: and the Night’s Watch might have members on both sides of the Battle of the Bastards if Thorne et al. come into the fray against the Wildlings (that is their job, after all) and thus on the side of the Boltons.

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    137. crimethink:
      D&D have said Jon is “deader than dead”.HBO execs said that “dead is dead is dead”.These seem to be calculated to rule out a resurrection.

      HBO Exec Michael Lombardo said “dead is dead is dead,” but D&D’s “dead is dead” quote happens to be exactly what the three Night’s Watchmen say in the opening prologue of Game of Thrones immediately before the attack from the wights and Others. They are attacked by the “dead is dead” people.

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    138. Henry Gordon,

      Er, sons come before daughters under most primogeniture rules. But, seriously, whence came this idea? Meera looks very much like Jojen, and Bran never once thinks that either look like the relevant people.

      Jon Stoneheart: Jon will not come back as the same person, I’m sure. When they speak in Jon is dead, I believe it’s his personality that is dead, forever.

      Again, GRRM cannot do that without nuking the over-arching story. Only Daeny is as much the story as Jon is: and how Jon has been evolving in parallel to Daeny (and a few other characters) is going to be the Song of Ice & Fire story.

      Instead, this will do to Jon much what the assassination attempt on Daeny will do to her, what Arya’s blindness will do to her, etc. There will be some cathartic aspect, no doubt: but it’s going to be a big evolutionary step, not a metamorphosis. The main characters have learned some key lessons in their attempts to compromise and find middle grounds that allow numerous people to thrive instead of just one side. That’s building to something big, but GRRM is leaving them very scarred along the way.

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    139. crimethink:
      Furthermore, I don’t agree that the NW oath can be voided by a temporary death. Remember that the vows end with “I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.” There could be an argument that that line contradicts the line about “shall not end until my death” in the case of temporary death (something the writer of the vow probably didn’t foresee), but it’s certainly not cut and dry.

      There’s no such thing as a temporary death, even in fantasy. Yes, we have people die and come back within seconds or possibly a couple of minutes, like when baptized by the Drowned God’s followers or when brought back with paddles, but once the brain is dead, that’s all she wrote.

      Jon will be dead. Deader than dead. There is no temporary about it. He’ll be resurrected, yes, but he’ll still and always be dead.

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    140. I said it when it happened, and I’ll say it again: You can’t so anticlimactically just ‘off’ a character who’s been developed throughout the story with a veritable plethora of not-so-subtle hints that he is of immense importance to the central plot without basically ruining the story.

      With Jon Snow’s death, GRRM and the GoT showrunners have reached a true turning point: What they do with it will either be brilliant or it will completely ruin the entire story. Because of what they’ve built Jon up to be, I really don’t see much of a middle ground here.

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    141. Wimsey,

      Er, sons come before daughters under most primogeniture rules.

      But, seriously, whence came this idea?Meera looks very much like Jojen, and Bran never once thinks that either look like the relevant people.

      Again, GRRM cannot do that without nuking the over-arching story

      Except in

      Dorne, where older girls can succeed.,

      which would make it pretty crazy for Doran.

      In the book,

      Jon & Meera’s descriptions are similar. Long faces, etc.

      I’m sure alt-shift-x has a piece on it.

      I admitted up thread that I was probably stirring the pot. But of all the fringe theories, this one requires less tinfoil than most.

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    142. Lulus Mum: You’re missing the opening part of the spoiler coding and have an extra space in the closing part between the slash and the “s”. It has to be

      [ spoiler ] the spoilery text bit [ /spoiler ]

      but without any spaces inside the square brackets. (I have recently been learning about websites and the programs that run them and suddenly understand why people struggle with it – if you don’t use exactly the right code it simply gets ignored by the program.) Good luck double bun one

      Thanks, LulusMum.

      testing. fingers crossed.

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    143. Wimsey,

      Jon was killed. Something much more serious and this experience is going to change for worse. If you expect him to be reletively same, you’re in for some surprise. Same as you keep going on and on about big five and ho they’ll evolve from start to end. Tyrion is up there with them in every aspect.

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    144. Wimsey,

      Well true to an extent but with media coverage as we just seen from the host who seems fairly knowledgeable, maybe alot more folk will be informed about him filming, not sure how popular that show is but he might get asked about filming alot more if the media are on the ball or an American show puts it out there, but i do think his facial expressions were not that convincing as he is just going through the motions answering, and regardless of filming or not Melisandra arriving at the wall so quick has to be a dead giveaway pardon the pun, but you are right most people don’t pay attention to the show as much as the hardcores regardless how plain it is to see, which I do envy at times due to receiving big surprises. Wow sorry I dragged that out a bit sorry ha. Thanks wimsey always appreciate your input whether i agree all the time or not.

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    145. Wimsey</Strong

      I don't see anyone return beyond the wall for some reason, I'm hoping the white walkers advance to the wall fairly quickly and be a great surprise at the battle at winterfell, it would give them a ridiculously big army with all the dead, maybe this happens at the end of season 6 which will give dany some time to get to kings landing by mid season 7 to meet the white walkers, I don't know but sounds like itwould be pretty cool pardon the pun, but yes her visions get mixed up and its possible the wildlings may name him king of the freefolk which I hope not and her sensing power in his blood is the azor ahai in him.

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    146. Jon will definitely not quite be the same as he was before when he’s (probably) resurrected. Beric says that every time he’s brought back, he’s bit “less” of himself than he was before. I think Jon will probably be “less” of himself as well.

      How his character might change exactly is the real question. I foresee him perhaps being a bit more… cold and pragmatic, a path that he was already kinda on before the mutiny took place. He really takes Aemon’s advice to heart and tries to apply it to just about everything he does from then on (though he clearly still grips with it from time to time).

      And of course dying and rising again as this new, hard-boiled Jon is in line with the theme of killing the boy and letting the man be born.

      …unless of course he’s really just a corpse being puppeteered by Bran. That wouldn’t be much fun though.

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    147. Ginevra,

      I know. He added Sansa later on so we have technically bix 6, but original outline is one thing and what comes next in actual story is another. George could’ve twisted that and some of them might die. Of course he would not kill them for the sake of shock value.

      Cersei, Jaime, Jon, Tyrion and Daeny are front five on the show, always on covers, inteviews and everything.

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    148. Everybody keeps saying that, Geralt of Rivia, but I’ve never seen a source. Is there a source where George is quoted as saying that he would add Sansa to that same grouping? Certainly she’s risen in importance, but I wouldn’t count on ASoIaF being her coming-of-age story nor her surviving until the end unless George explicitly said so.

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    149. Wimsey: Well, I suspect that most of the Wall will be there for a long time.However, I would be surprised if there was not a several kilometer wide hole in it at the very end of the season.

      Boudica,

      Yeah, GRRM has been pretty upfront that the theory of story-telling to which he adheres.Basically, we are heading to some climax where the main characters (presumably the Big 5, although possibly just Jon and Daeny) will feel that whatever choice they make is wrong in some sense.I suspect that a big part of the “bittersweet” that GRRM has promised is not that the main protagonists will die, but they they will have to live with what they did.As the Moment told the Doctor, that is the punishment!

      Completly agree with this. I always thought George was aiming at a LoTR type of bittersweet ending. No one dies but no one is ever the same. Their innocence is stolen, and that is seen in Frodo and how he is too tired to stay and face the memories. So I expect them to survive but I expect them to be damaged beyond repair.

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