Exclusive new Game of Thrones Season 6 spoiler report from Winterfell!

Ramsay
Season 5. Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

We have an exclusive spoiler report for you all today- fresh Game of Thrones news courtesy of our set sources in Northern Ireland. The new information describes an exciting scene with several leading cast members, taking place at Winterfell.

Local sources also confirm that the Winterfell exterior set in Moneyglass has been busy this week, with production vehicles present.

The details we’ve received contain major spoilers, so proceed with caution!

According to WotW‘s sources, a scene was rehearsed and is being filmed this week involving Sansa, Jon Snow, Ramsay and Littlefinger.

The characters are interacting in Winterfell’s courtyard, and there’s a great deal of tension…

And then a giant turns up at the gates! The giant tries to force its way in and the people inside have to fight it off.

There’s no word yet on which giant it was- have more of them than Wun Wun come south in season 6? We also don’t know what episode this scene is for or who is directing it. I’d love to know that, to develop more of a timeline, but unfortunately that info hasn’t come to us yet.

What do you think, readers? Does giant news get you more pumped- or just more confused? Both?

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Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com

665 Comments

  1. Wtf?!? The spoiler sounds like bad fanfic.

    As a side, if Sansa ACTUALLY kills a LITERAL giant, then all of speculation about her prophesy was way off.

  2. So…who brings Sansa there? Or is she there already? Is she with LF and he brings her to this talk? Does Jon take her there to meet with her husband? Is she with Ramsay and LF and Jon come to get her? Is the giant on Jon’s side? So many possible permutations…

  3. *squeeeeeeeeeeee*

    I’m just SO. HAPPY. that two Stark kids are going to be in the same place at the same time I don’t care about anything else.

    I can’t even imagine under what pretense Sansa, Ramsey, Jon and LF would just be kicking’ it in Winterfell together. Would they just let Jon in? I this before or after SnowBowl? Maybe Jon Stark tries to go and meet with Ramsey and try to avoid more bloodshed but brings the Giant for backup?

  4. I doubt Sansa is going back in there not knowing if she’s getting back out….wait…that seems illogical. That’s exactly whats going to happen.

  5. I’m going guess this is an episode 10 thing. Its post-battle, Jon won and captured Ramsay, Sansa met up with Jon earlier in the season and is still with him, and Littlefinger showed up and didn’t attack the Northerners.

    Because if its pre-battle, 1) I really don’t understand the arc of the North next season and 2) It doesn’t seem like there’s enough time for Jon to rez, deal with that, go to Winterfell, get out of Winterfell alive, and then fight a battle. Plus assemble his army at some point.

    Add bonus speculation, if this is episode 10 maybe the Giant is a White Walker thrall and this is the sign for everyone that the Wall has fallen.

  6. So it’s gotta be either episode 9 or 10, after the battle, right? There’s not much context, unfortunately, but I don’t see how those characters would interact in any other episodes, unless there’s some sort of parley before the battle.

  7. Sucks that Ramsey is still alive. Sucks that Sansa has to go and face him, though if someone has received word that Tyrion is still alive, then her marriage to him is invalidated and he doesn’t have s***.

  8. Ramsay will be wanting his wife back, Littlefinger wanting his creepy Cat replacement back, and Jon wanting his sister back – battle ensues

    I wish Sansa didn’t have to actually be there though, too close for comfort

  9. thorne garnet,

    Unless she makes it to Castle Black, meets post-resurrection/magical healing/whatever!Jon, and returns to Winterfell under his protection. Then it’s not so dire for her.

    I just want to know where this falls in the timeline. I’m still holding onto hope Ramsey doesn’t make it out of Snowbowl alive.

  10. trarecar: Sucks that Sansa has to go and face him

    Are you serious? That’d be awesome. The only thing better than Jon killing Ramsay in battle would be Sansa ordering Jon to execute Ramsay after the battle.

  11. OMG … but what happens????? NOOOOOOO … I don’t like this kind of spoilers, many possible outcomes and I’m getting worried about Sansa. I wish Sansa and Jon were discussing over who kills Ramsay and how. I hope GRRM doesn’t kill Sansa and Ramsay kills Littlefinger instead…

  12. It’s episode 10 and Ramsay again is alive (because he is awesome) and then Jon, LF, Ramsay and Sansa have a talk!! Ramsay is team Stark after all !! Ok there is no logic on why LF , Jon and Ramsay are together before the battle….. or after it now that i think about it

    This sound like a bad scene…..

  13. Luka Nieto: Are you serious? That’d be awesome. The only thing better than Jon killing Ramsay in battle would be Sansa ordering Jon to execute Ramsay after the battle.

    Yeah, after I posted that, I realized that it would be a great empowering moment for her, IF in fact she finally has the upper hand over him. With Jon there I hope she does.

  14. This sounds completely terrible unless it’s Ramsay captured post battle.

    Seriously, what the fuuuuuck?

  15. Maggie,

    Frankly, it sounds like you just wrote a fanfic plot and then decided it was a bad scene.

    I can think of lots of reasons why characters would come together or get thrown together.

    In the end, though, it doesn’t make sense to hate something we’ve never seen and don’t have many details or any context about.

  16. Maggie: This sound like a bad scene…..

    To say that’s jumping the gun is an understatement. There’s literally no context to the scene but the characters involved, the setting and that a giant causes some sort of trouble.

  17. This is really interesting news. It is a bit disappointing that Littlefinger will also be present. Except if both Ramsay and Littlefinger is going down.

  18. Been saying this for years… people keep trying so hard to deny this reality:

    Ramsay will not be killed off by one of the Starks or their allies. He will end up fighting on their side, heroically, and… if he falls, he will fall fighting off hordes of dead like the bravest of warriors. BECAUSE THIS IS NOT LORD OF THE RINGS.

  19. Sue the Fury:
    Maggie,

    Frankly, it sounds like you just wrote a fanfic plot and then decided it was a bad scene.

    I can think of lots of reasons why characters would come together or get thrown together.

    In the end, though, it doesn’t make sense to hate something we’ve never seen and don’t have many details or any context about.

    I was joking about what episode it is, and what they do.. there is no possibility for me to know … and the speculation i made sound like a bad scene to me…

    I was really hoping Ramsay will be killed in episode 9… and i really don’t want Sansa to stay in the same place with her rapist for a number of episodes before the battle..
    That’s all

  20. That sounds I’m insane. I’m really trying to understand the context of all of this. And where is Roose?

  21. GeekFurious:
    Been saying this for years… people keep trying so hard to deny this reality:

    Ramsay will not be killed off by one of the Starks or their allies. He will end up fighting on their side, heroically, and… if he falls, he will fall fighting off hordes of dead like the bravest of warriors. BECAUSE THIS IS NOT LORD OF THE RINGS.

    No way that’s happening. Getting no comeuppance for raping Sansa and burning WF? not to mention all the other horrible shit. If they turn him into some sort of hero who Sansa forgives I’ll flip some tables.

    It ain’t happening.

  22. Normally, I don’t find myself to be very negative but I’m not so sure I like how this is playing out. Obviously we do not know much as of yet, but it does sound kinda dumb outside of any plot context beyond the fact that we know a fight is going down. “Giant attacks Winterfell!”…not exactly the height of drama.

  23. I just can’t figure it when this is going to happen. If it is

    post battle, would mean Jon victory, but why they didn’t execute Ramsay after all he has done and burning those two crosses? And, if it is postbattle, with a victory of Jon’s army, why a giant would enter? People fighting the giant would mean Boltons inside…I can only imagine a pre-battle scene, some kind of negotiation and the giant starts the big battle. Or is Ramsay turning cloaks and burning on those two crosses Roose and other ally as he sees himself surrounded?

    I don’t understand anything!

  24. Oh…I think it sounds fabulous. We’ve got two Starks in the same place, interacting and not just any place, in WINTERFELL. If this is post-battle, Jon wins and they are they to accept Ramsay’s surrender, it will kick ass.

    And then, you know, because ultimately politics is unimportant when you’ve got the Others banging down your door, in the middle of everything, a giant actually begins BANGING DOWN YOUR DOOR.

  25. Wtf lol. Im just speechless. First of all, why are they in winterfell. Is it a treaty before or after the battle. Did they get captured and wun wun rescues them. Or did someone warg into him?

  26. Maggie: I was really hoping Ramsay will be killed in episode 9… and i really don’t want Sansa to stay in the same place with her rapist for a number of episodes before the battle..
    That’s all

    How do you know this isn’t after the battle?

  27. Bearded Onion: No way that’s happening. Getting no comeuppance for raping Sansa and burning WF? not to mention all the other horrible shit. If they turn him into some sort of hero who Sansa forgives I’ll flip some tables.

    It ain’t happening.

    WHAT THE FUCK SHOW HAVE YOU BEEN WATCHING?! This is not a comeuppance show.

  28. Also if the North starts rallying around Sansa and Jon the Boltons won’t see any need for a Stark child anymore since the North is already rebelling and would just kill them both and just go with a bolton child.

    This has to be post battle, maybe it’s Wun Wun letting off steam? So far it sounds terrible but it’s massively out of context so.

  29. I think this scene is Episode 10, or the last minutes of episode 9. After the battle, Ramsay is cornered by the Vale and the north troops. Then, a mad, pissed off giant disrupts the meeting. So:

    a) The giant will be in Jon’s side and hopefully will kill Ramsay or Littlefinger in a properly gruesome way.

    b) The giant is a wight, in which case the White Walkers have started the invasion. It seems unlikely to me, but…

  30. If this basically means that Sweetrobin smashing Sansa’s snowcastle Winterfell with his ‘giant’ doll, was actually foreshadowing for an actual real giant coming along and smashing Winterfell, then that’s going to annoy me so much.

  31. aurane waters:
    Luka Nieto,

    this being after the battle makes very little sense

    Why would Sansa and Jon who likely have a huge rebel army at some point go to WF alone? They would be flayed alive to end the rebellion and Roose would just use Bolton children to secure his claim.

    Also where is Roose?

  32. Lyanna_Targaryen:
    *squeeeeeeeeeeee*

    I’m just SO. HAPPY. that two Stark kids are going to be in the same place at the same time I don’t care about anything else.

    I can’t even imagine under what pretense Sansa, Ramsey, Jon and LF would just be kicking’ it in Winterfell together. Would they just let Jon in? I this before or after SnowBowl? Maybe Jon Stark tries to go and meet with Ramsey and try to avoid more bloodshed but brings the Giant for backup?

    I think the same…
    O.K, Sansa, Ramsay, JON, Giant and… Littlefinger!!???!!!
    I can’t…

  33. RosanaZugey:
    Wtf?!? The spoiler sounds like bad fanfic.

    As a side, if Sansa ACTUALLY kills a LITERAL giant, then all of speculation about her prophesy was way off.

    It does.

    And if she kills Wun Wun, I kill her.

  34. Luka Nieto: How do you know this isn’t after the battle?

    I don’t know… but wouldn’t a Giant be on Jon’s side?… why does a Giant have to enter like this if Sansa (Jon) won the Winterfell…..
    They could have Ramsay executed with nobody entering like this..
    Also why would Sansa smash this giant? Unless the Giant is against Sansa?

    I really have no idea 🙂

  35. People who are wishing for bad vs good with good coming out are not realizing that this is GOT. I think the more plausible outcome is Jon reasoning with the boltons and trying to get their help against the WW. That could be why ramsey may end up killing roose and fat walda.

    it looks like at the end, they will be allies.

  36. Schrödinger’s Cat:
    Notable absence of Roose? Is he dead?

    At this point, I’m all but convinced that Ramsay is going to kill Roose (and Walda) prior to the Battle of the Bastards and seize Winterfell for himself. Generally, I try not to read too much into the lack of filming news for a particular actor, as the absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence. However, the fact that there have been no confirmed sightings of Michael McElhatton this year is at least consistent with the idea that he either isn’t filming very much, or is filming primarily interior scenes – neither of which speak well for his potential as an active antagonist in the North’s central conflict. Furthermore, Ramsay’s unhappiness with Walda’s pregnancy was heavily foreshadowed last year. I’d love to be wrong, because I think McElhatton is fantastic and I’d like him to get as much screentime as possible before Roose inevitably meets his end. But it’s not looking good for the Leech Lord right now.

  37. Luka Nieto: Are you serious? That’d be awesome. The only thing better than Jon killing Ramsay in battle would be Sansa ordering Jon to execute Ramsay after the battle.

    Yes, please…

  38. GeekFurious,

    I would like that. It really would drive home the fact at the end all Westeros (and maybe even Essos) has to fight togather to defeat the WWs (if they even can). Ramsay is a monster, but he is also a skilled warrior and could be of great use.

  39. Any Melisandre sightings walking the battlements of WF? Also, was it an actor playing a giant or could it be a giant ice spider? Looking forward to more info on this since this was only the rehearsal

  40. Abyss:
    GeekFurious,

    I would like that. It really would drive home the fact at the end all Westeros (and maybe even Essos) has to fight togather to defeat the WWs (if they even can). Ramsay is a monster, but he is also a skilled warrior and could be of great use.

    Sansa would never forgive him and they have plenty of skilled warriors in Westeros. Ramsay is a madman who will do anything to kill Jon and Sansa. They would be massive morons to employ him after everything he’s done.

    Also the audience would go absolutely mad if D&D portray Ramsay as a good guy who works with the woman he raped and who’s home he burnt down. They would be crucified and it would be really shitty writing.

  41. The only way the narrative would let Ramsay hold Jon and Sansa captive is if he’s about to be attacked by a giant or betrayed by Littlefinger, I imagine. (Otherwise, by Martin’s rules, they’re both dead and the story’s over.) Either they won or they are joining him to fight the North, or the White Walkers are forcing that by being literally at their door in giant form.

    I agree this definitely means the end for one of the four, most likely Ramsay, and if not him Sansa, and if not her Littlefinger. This would be a good time to signal Jon has lost something in his return from death by A) not showing brotherly love for Sansa and regarding her as a pawn or something incidental in his war, B) not showing hatred for Ramsay in spite of his horribleness, because the war effort is more important, C) not slowing down for Ramsay or Littlefinger’s bullshit and just executing one of them.

  42. I am stumped. Can’t figure out when this will take place. Sansa again has to breath the same air as Ramsay.
    I was hoping he would get killed during Snowbowl. The absence of Roose could mean this is after the battle. Ughhh, we still know nothing.

  43. This is how I see this playing out…

    Roose agrees to Jon’s terms given that he is out numbered and that the WWs are coming. Ramsey sees this and kills Roose along with Fat Walda. Jon comes to Winterfell thinking that he is meeting Roose but ends up meeting Ramsey. They fight their way out. Ramsey burns Roose’s and Walda’s bodies before battle, battle happens. and I do think that the WWs will show up. maybe not the entire army but a small band that would unite all the armies in the south. Just enough so people do think that they are real. How else is Jon gonna convince people? This would set us up for the next season.

  44. Luka Nieto,

    Sansa: Lord Commander(?), BRING ME HIS HEAD !!!!!! ….. (smiles)

    But why is Wun Wun trying to enter by force after the Battle???? … No, it isn’t only execution day.

  45. If this is post-battle, then the only way Jon Snow would be inside Winterfell is if his forces won and captured Ramsay. Hopefully Jon Snow executes Ramsay in this scene.

    If this is pre-battle, then it’s probably some sort of parlay. Roose not being part of the parlay doesn’t make much sense unless he’s dead or unless he went back to the Dreadfort (maybe to deal with Euron)?

  46. I would guess this is after the battle, and probably with Ramsay a prisoner or something, because I can’t imagine why Jon and Sansa (and Littlefinger, for that matter) would waltz into a castle he still controlled; it being before the battle is hard to picture for the same reason.

    Speaking of Littlefinger, here’s some news about him, a mere day after I remarked we’d had almost no news about him filming, though if this is after the battle it really doesn’t add much to our understanding of what he’s up to this season. I’ve come to the conclusion he’s going to be mostly absent this year, based on the seeming contours of the plot, and show up at the end to set the stage for the next season’s dynamics.

  47. Why would a giant (Wun Wun?) be trying aggressively to get into Winterfell if Jon’s inside? Could it be that Jon’s being held captive by Ramsey and/or Littlefinger and that’s why a giant is trying to get in?? If Jon were in control of WF, why would a giant not be allowed in? And why would Jon even negotiate with Ramsay? Unless Sansa is once again Ramsay’s captive. Sigh. LOL, so many questions.

    As excited as I was at the prospect of a Stark reunion, I’m starting to get a bad feeling that things won’t go as positively for Jon and his allies during and after SnowBowl. I guess GRRM has conditioned me to always expect the worst.

  48. I would love this, especially if the Giant is on Jons side.

    Maybe this is after (or before?) the Battle, where all the sides involved meet and greet. Ramsay threatens Jon, Jon responds with a “you really want to fight my army of giants…WUN WUN!”

  49. I don’t think Wun-Wun trying to enter the gate is anything huge. I think they’re talking after Ramsey’s surrender and they turn around because Wun-Wun is just trying to get in to have Jon’s back and he can’t fit. Jon will be like “It’s cool Wun Wun.” Then they go back to talking.

  50. Luka Nieto: Are you serious? That’d be awesome. The only thing better than Jon killing Ramsay in battle would be Sansa ordering Jon to execute Ramsay after the battle.

    Co-sign. 🙂

  51. Ramsay getting unexpectedly killed by a Giant is something I actually can get behind if that would happen. I do not want some torture fantasy of someone flaying him or something, this is not a series where Jon or Theon or someone can just kill him in battle and I think Roose can not kill Ramsay either since Ramsay probably will kill Roose. Littlefinger killing Ramsay for hurting is Cat-replacement would be fine by me as well.

  52. If Sansa and Jon get captured while the North is rebelling for them, they would be steadily executed, painfully, to end the Starks once and for all. They haven’t been captured.

    Also, I hope it’s just Wun Wun letting off steam or some shit. Ugh, this really isn’t making any sense…

  53. The giant part is the one that doesn’t seem to make sense, not knowing the context. Why would he be trying to break into Winterfell? Unless it is a siege type situation, and Ramsey escaped the battle and barred the gates?

  54. If Sansa’s there with Jon, she must have met him after his rez, so she has to be under his protection. Are she and Jon captives after a battle in which Jon loses to Ramsay? The Giant could imply that: Giants are with the wildlings, and wildlings are with Jon. Is the giant trying a rescue?

    Littlefinger: Assuming a battle, which side did he support? Cersei gave him Winterfell if he can defeat the Boltons and take Sansa, but King’s Landing has little hold over the North. Realistically, Littlefinger can’t hope to hold the North, so has no motive to harm Sansa, as she’s his best hope for control. She knows that Bran is alive, but he doesn’t. So if he arrived with the Vale men to help Jon, you’d think odds would favor Jon’s side, especially with casting that implies a bunch of other northern lords will be involved, too.

    …or is this a zombie giant? Have the Walkers launched some kind of an attack against Winterfell, forcing Boltons, Littlefinger, Jon, etc., to fight together? That’d make some sort of sense, as it’s past time someone other than the crows figured out zombies are coming.

    ok no clue.

  55. Pigeon: It does.

    And if she kills Wun Wun, I kill her.

    *GASP* NOT MY GIRL!!!!! You know how I feel about my Sansa. It’d be like knifing us BOTH in the heart.

    No but seriously….this spoiler is…um…wtf? I think I’d be WAY more in to it if there wasn’t a giant in the scene. As is, I keep having images of Wreck it Ralph hanging off the walls of Winterfell, just pounding shit. ?

  56. royz,

    No, that just indicates that Littlefinger is going to take his army north. We have quite a lot of pictures and filming info from Snowbowl, and there are no Valemen in sight. That doesn’t preclude it, but I think it’s unlikely, especially since the Vale army should, on its own, be sufficient to crush any force the Boltons field. Them not being there (especially since they’re quite unlikely to be present at the book equivalent of this scene) is more dramatic.

  57. Hmmm….Don’t know about this. Hope D&D aren’t just making shit up now for visual effect. Well, we will see how this goes. Fingers crossed

  58. Bearded Onion,

    How is dying in a fight as a warrior (a fight that you have to fight to survive yourself) making you a good guy by default? Most of the NW are criminals, but they fight for a good course anway (or at least we think so at this point). Not because they are “good guys”, but because they have to. Same would go for Ramsay.
    And Sansa (or anybody for that matter) doesn’t have to forgive him and she sure as hell will not. Hell, should Ramsay survive to the end I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets killed by her orders regardless of whatever good he did.
    Showing that people have different sides isn’t “shitty writing”, it makes multilayered characters and that is a big part of aSoIaF/GOT.

  59. If Jon, Sansa, and Littlefinger were inside about to execute Ramsay, why would a giant be trying to get in and be fighting with people? It seems more likely to me that Jon & Company are the ones being held captive, and the giant tries to get in as an attempt to rescue them.

  60. BunBunStark: If Jon were in control of WF, why would a giant not be allowed in? And why would Jon even negotiate with Ramsay? Unless Sansa is once again Ramsay’s captive. Sigh. LOL, so many questions.
    As excited as I was at the prospect of a Stark reunion, I’m starting to get a bad feeling that things won’t go as positively for Jon his allies during and after SnowBowl. I guess GRRM has conditioned me to always expect the worst.

    That’s putting it mildly. I’m cringing at the thought of Sansa being in Winterfell with Ramsay still alive, even more wary of Littlefinger being there – the devil that set up the business transaction that made him obligated to “deliver” Sansa to the Boltons in the first place. Will he still be trying to make good on a business deal, or deny to Sansa’s face that such a thing was done? How will Jon deal with him?

    As far as a giant, if it is Wun Wun, maybe he heard that Jon was inside the walls of Winterfell and is just trying to find out if Jon is ok. They have to calm him down. I can’t think of any other giants. Didn’t Mance say there were few to none left after Mag the Mighty went down? Are there White Walker giants that show-only people don’t know about?

  61. Abyss:
    Bearded Onion,

    How is dying in a fight as a warrior (a fight that you have to fight to survive yourself) making you a good guy by default? Most of the NW are criminals, but they fight for a good course anway (or at least we think so at this point). Not because they are “good guys”, but because they have to. Same would go for Ramsay.
    And Sansa (or anybody for that matter) doesn’t have to forgive him and she sure as hell will not. Hell, should Ramsay survive to the end I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets killed by her orders regardless of whatever good he did.
    Showing that people have different sides isn’t “shitty writing”, it makes multilayered characters and that is a big part of aSoIF/GOT.

    Yeah okay if he fights for his own survival and no one else’s then gets killed by Sansa & Jon it’ll be 100% fine. If he sides with them, fights for them and gets forgiveness it won’t be.

  62. Bearded Onion,

    Suspecting that Ramsay is captured after the battle. They take Ramsay as prisoner to Winterfell. They haven’t executed him yet because they want him alive to tell them where Roose is. (Remember Roose is the Bolton who killed Robb, and Jon & Sansa know this.)

    Except the Roose is loose? But where to. (Back to Dreadfort?)

  63. The question is which one/ones of these characters is the captive of the others. I can imagine – horribly – Ramsey somehow capturing Sansa and Jon and/or LF parleying for her.
    OR, worse still, Jon and Sansa as captives, and the giant and wildlings as part of a rescue attempt while Littlefinger is there enjoying the chaos…..

    I can only imagine the giants aligned with Jon and wildlings…. unless it is a wight. And by then, the castle really would look as if it were made of snow.

  64. don’t forget that Melisandre saw in her visions that she walks in winterfell and saw the banners of Boltons have been burningو and we’ll certainly watch such a moment in season 6

  65. In what way could Sansa slay a giant, as prophecy foretold?

    A) crossbow
    B) Littlefinger orders his soldiers to protect/avenge her
    C) Jon does the same
    D) slamming a drawbridge
    E) poison
    F) cutting remarks

    Giant + Winterfell does seem too close for this to be anything but a reenactment of that.

    Maybe instead this is where Littlefinger exits the story.

  66. Derek,

    Jon would be killed instantly if ever caught, why would Ramsay ever allow him to live?

    Someone said above, I think it could just be Wun Wun trying to have Jons back. And people freaking out about a giant since they had never seen one.

    Or, it could be Ramsay surrendering, and Jon trying to explain to Sansa and LF that he needs the Boltons to fight the Walkers. A united North is a must and eliminating the last Bolton would throw their House into chaos. Walkers they say? No one believes in the White Walkers.

    Oh, you don’t believe me? How about I show you a giant.

  67. Ok…so…what if Ramsay captures Sansa at the battle. Uses her as a “hostage” to escape. Then Jon goes there to get her back. Then Wun Wun says “fuck all”, and breaks down the gates to save Jon (and by extension, Sansa)?

  68. I’m so bloody excited!!

    A giant breaking the gates of WF is something I long speculated/hoped.

    Can’t wait to see Jon and Sansa. Also Ramsey, I absolutly love the way Iwan portraise(100% i wrote this wrong, so please correct me 🙂 ) him!

  69. Ragnar:
    Maggie,

    Could you at least wait before passing judgement like an obnoxious snobby book purist ?

    I was trying to be funny and then i said the scene i imagined wasn’t good.
    and yes i can wait. 🙂

  70. Sansa’s giant-slaying prophecy coming true? I’m not entirely sure how it can happen but surely it must be through something she sets into motion as I can’t see her bringing one down first-hand.
    I guess the big question is whether the giant is alive or dead already?

  71. Regarding the giant, maybe, if this is in episode 10, the giant is panicking because he somehow sensed the collapse of the Wall, which many speculate will happen in that episode (I’m agnostic on it, but it’s certainly possible)? Granted, there’s nothing thus far suggesting that giants can do that.

  72. Mark: I think it could just be Wun Wun trying to have Jons back. And people freaking out about a giant since they had never seen one.

    After Wun Wun breaks into WF and stands next to Jon, can you imagine the reactions of everyone else? *RESPECT*

  73. Oh I meant to add

    I will riot if Wun Wun dies. Well ok maybe not riot… More like cry my eyes out. lol It would be kinda awesome if he storms in, scoops up Sansa for an epic rescue, then they live happily ever after together in the woods with Nymeria’s pack. Yes… that’s definitely what’s going to happen. 😉
  74. If the Wildlings are supposed to be Jon’s allies already, and the giant “tries to force its way in and the people inside have to fight it off” I can only think that the Boltons are still rulling in Winterfell when that happens. If it was Jon, they’d let the guant enter. I’d guess Jon most likely lost the battle and was captured with the others, and the Giant and Wildlings come to the rescue then. Maybe he doesn’t have full support at first, idk.

  75. Also wondering where Roose is. Think I prefer him as the Big BAd over Ramsay as he’s a lot more calculating.
    Also, why do Bolton men dress like conquistadors?!

  76. Mark:
    Derek,

    Jon would be killed instantly if ever caught, why would Ramsay ever allow him to live?

    Someone said above, I think it could just be Wun Wun trying to have Jons back. And people freaking out about a giant since they had never seen one.

    Or, it could be Ramsay surrendering, and Jon trying to explain to Sansa and LF that he needs the Boltons to fight the Walkers. A united North is a must and eliminating the last Bolton would throw their House into chaos. Walkers they say? No one believes in the White Walkers.

    Oh, you don’t believe me? How about I show you a giant.

    Lol, he doesn’t need Ramsay who’s extremely unreliable and likely to backstab him at any given chance. They just need a Northern nobleman in charge of the Dreadfort and they have all of the Bolton’s assets. Plus Jon will be pissed off at everyone who’s ever wronged him or his family, that includes Ramsay.

  77. My best guess:
    This is post battle discussion, they are deciding who gets what, who goes where, and what to do with Ramsay. I am guessing the giant has turned wight. Sansa defeats him by lighting him on fire

    Option 2:
    Boltons win the battle, Ramsay has Jon, Sansa and LF captured and brought to Winterfell. Giants attack to free them. In the chaos Sansa kills LF somehow?

  78. Episode 10, after the battle Ramsey runs back to WF.
    LF is already there, he betrays Ramsey, like he always planned and opens the gates too Jon/Sansa.

    An argument ensues between LF and Sansa, won’t speculate the subject. LF is angered most likely that Sansa will no longer listen too him, and try to get rid of Jon and possibly Rickon with the Vale troops. He tries to attack the Wildlings outside and kill Jon inside WF, so he can claim the North, something Jon would never allow.

    Wun Wun tries too enter the castle too save Jon/Sansa.

    My guess, most likely wrong. But it was fun to speculate.

    Also, I fully belive Roose is dead at this point or perhaps, but I doubt it, dies in the battle in EP9.

  79. TheTouchOfFrost,

    Roose is almost certainly going to be killed by Ramsay this season, I expect. He’s been the secondary villain in the show ever since the Bolton plots merged (basically the villainous equivalent of the angry police captain in a cowboy cop film), and the Walda pregnancy introduced last season doesn’t serve any purpose other than as a prompt for Ramsay to aggressively claim his inheritance (unless it was solely to give Sansa something to insult him about).

  80. Bearded Onion,

    I completely agree. Jon may want all hands on deck to fight the white walkers, but no way is he letting Ramsay have even a shred of freedom, and that’s if he’s even allowed to live. But that’s presuming Jon beats Ramsay on the battlefield and this meeting is taking place afterward.

  81. Thronetender,

    The Ghost of High Heart:

    “I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.”

  82. …lol thought of another possibility: Could it be that Sansa and Theon were captured immediately after their escape? If that happens, and if Jon and others then attack Winterfell, Sansa would be an excellent hostage.

  83. I actually want this to be true. But aren’t the giants CGI? How can the source have seen a giant bustin through the gates?

  84. mau,

    You know what would be even better, if Brienne returns Oathkeeper to the Starks and Jon uses that sword to carry on the sentence. Ice must return to their rightful owners even if in pieces.

  85. Greywind,

    That’d be my guess as well. Hopefully, Sue’s contacts are able to send in a followup once the scene is filmed, giving us some helpful context.

  86. Essentially the show took the good of Stannis and gave it to Jon and took the bad of Jon and gave it to Stannis. It wouldn’t do for Shireen to burn to resurrect the groundlings’ fave, while Stannis runs around liberating the North.

    Hopefully I will live long enough to see the actual books translated into a visual medium.

  87. Any chance that Ramsay is actually the “savage giant.” He’s certainly savage, and Sansa slaying him makes more sense to me than slaying LF. Maybe this is a show deviation deviation from the books, since they didn’t go into LF’s ancetral sigil in the show, and they went to great lengths to build up the bad blood between Sansa and Ramsay (which wasn’t in the book).

  88. You know…..I know I’m crazy, but this whole thing doesn’t really make me excited, it’s just too weird.

  89. Lollyspop,

    The giants are real actors, not CG creatures. But you’re right inasmuch as the giants are not there in the scene; they are shot in a green-screen room and later added into the scene, in order to appear even larger than they are. However, it’s the kind of thing you wouldn’t be able to miss. Just because the creature isn’t in the scene doesn’t mean that its inclusion doesn’t involve a hell of a lot of preparation and discussion. Probably more than if they were actually there!

    Stannis the Mannis: It wouldn’t do for Shireen to burn to resurrect the groundlings’ fave

    Hi, fellow time traveler. Please don’t spoil TWOW for us! Unless, of course, you’re just making shit up and assuming your pet theories about the future of the book series are correct despite what the show adapting that future material is actually showing us. Don’t worry, I’m sure you know better than D&D, who know the rest of the story.

  90. I’m as confused as everyone else. Some have already mentioned that the giant might not be attacking, could be trying to rescue someone inside WF or perhaps is bringing an urgent message – if there was something he had to tell Jon say, like “White Walkers here now RUN LIKE FUUUUUUUUUK!” he’s not gonna just knock politely I’d imagine.

    Also, could LF be pretending to hand over Jon and Sansa to Ramsay? Say the good guys are loosing, Vale army sweeps in pretending to be on Ramsay’s side, fighting comes to an end, R wants to execute J and have his bride back so they retreat to WF to sort out the details and wham! – good guys were just pretending Bolton, you gonna die.

    Or….nah, there’s too many possibilities, brain is melting 🙁

  91. Thronetender,

    What Luka Nieto said. People often take it as a hint she might kill Littlefinger, as his ancestors’ sigil was a giant.

    Sansarya,

    Fire is a good idea, and equalizer for her to kill an actual undead giant. They really need to latch onto that as a strategy, which would lead them to dragons.

  92. Sean C.,

    Possibly, but again I think he is a much more formidable antagonist than Ramsay as he’s inteligent and cold-blooded. Ramsay is more prone to violent tantrums which is a part of his character that the show has unfortunately not really shown…which is a shame as his brattishness is one of the characteristics that makes him even more vile. If Roose dies then the north is pretty much lost as Ramsay doesn’t have enough about him to hold things together.
    But who knows. We don’t know where Rickon, the Wildings and the other Northern Lords are so perhaps Roose is off fighting them somewhere.

    Also wondering why everyone thinks Sansa is going to kill someone?! She can become a more competent character without ending lives!

  93. Mark: Or, it could be Ramsay surrendering, and Jon trying to explain to Sansa and LF that he needs the Boltons to fight the Walkers. A united North is a must and eliminating the last Bolton would throw their House into chaos. Walkers they say? No one believes in the White Walkers.

    You know, after reading all the theories so far, this makes the most sense. It is so “Jon” to propose such a thing, to be so incredibly sensible, albeit unpopular, when all others are lusting for blood and revenge. He would be right in his assessment, too. They will need every man and they will need to fight together. Accck, they will even have to semi-trust Ramsay, as much as it pains me to even type such a thing.

    But that’s Jon. Such ideas are what got him derided and “killed.” Apparently his mind and spirit will be intact after he is rezzed. That’s a good thought.

  94. We need more than this. The scene itself has a lot of possibilits.

    Who are mad with a scene without context has serious issues.

    But we need more than this to try to “make the scene”.

  95. Tyrion Pimpslap: Stannis died

    TWoW will overlap ADwD…but yeah, I believe Theon II will describe how the Bolton forces ransack Stannis’ fatigued, disjointed men, killing Stannis while Asha/Theon escape.

  96. Huh. Maybe it goes a little something like this:

    Jon, Sansa, Littlefinger (after battle is won) to Ramsay, after they bust in Winterfell: Get rekt! *Ramsay says something humorous and has his 20 good men with him* *Everyone else is talking possible negotiations, surrender, execution, ect

    Wildlings and Northern Army outside Winterfell: “Crap, they’re taking a little long out there… Wonder what’s going on?” Alternatively, they could be curb stomping whatever Boltons and opposing Northerners are left and decide to take the party inside. Wun Wun is like, screw the rules, I’m a giant and smashes down the door and asks what the foock they’re doing. Ramsay’s 20 good men piss themselves, come at the giant, and shit gets real in Winterfell for about 2 minutes.

    In the end, Ramsay is ultimately executed by whoever calls dibs and things go from there.

    Obviously, that’s not exactly how it would go down, but I imagine this is a really, really paraphrased version of it.

  97. Well at least we probably know where Jon gets his Stark armour from. If this isn’t Episode 10…from the armoury of Winterfell.

    Any chance it’s a WunWun wight?

  98. Hodors Bastard,

    Exactly, Stannis won’t be dead in the first chapters of TWOW, because they happen before the last chapters of ADWD.

    Like Jaime’s chapters in ASOS took place before the battle of blackwater bay was finished.

  99. Is there any confirmation it’s a literal giant that’s supposed to turn up at WF, or could UnGregor also be a candidate here?

  100. Luka Nieto:
    Thronetender,

    The Ghost of High Heart:

    Thanks for the answering. I’m assuming it’s Sansa saying this, or dreaming this? Maybe she’s dreaming of Dany – on a dragon? If that sounds way silly, sorry, Now I will have to go look up Ghost of High Heart. * muttering – how the hell does that old man dream up all this shit?…*

  101. FWIW, the Bolton soldiers are armed in the pic…not something I’d expect in WF if they’d lost Bastard Bowl.

  102. MasterTK,

    The Iron Islands. We already knew that.

    TheTouchOfFrost,

    Roose may indeed be the more dangerous, but he’s not the main villain, and Ramsay’s rise to the apex of his power really can’t be complete without disposing of dear old dad.

    Thronetender,

    That would never happen. Ramsay simply cannot be dealt with in that manner; even if you were inclined to overlook his past crimes toward the Starks, he has given more than ample proof that he will not honour deals and cannot even be counted on to act in his own self-interest.

  103. Dire Moon Moon:
    FWIW, the Bolton soldiers are armed in the pic…not something I’d expect in WF if they’d lost Bastard Bowl.

    If you’re talking about the picture at the top of the post, that is from S5. Sue’s spoiler is about the rehearsal.

  104. The pre-giant part sounds awesome. The giant is… weird.

    My guess: They are deciding who gets to kill Ramsay first. Jon wants to stay in Winterfell. The giant goes ‘nuh-nuh, your destiny is with us, in the North’, and breaks in to kidnap Jon. After they are gone, Sansa kills Ramsay. LF shrugs and goes in to pour himself some hot wine and plan out the new brothel.

  105. Thronetender: go look up Ghost of High Heart. *

    Besides that wonderful reference, I always thought that SweetRobin’s destruction of Sansa’s snow castle (as others have referenced above) was foreshadowing something…but possibly not to such a violent end…just a bumbling giant!

  106. I want Littlefinger to betray Jon like he did Ned, only to have Jon’s eyes turn bright blue, look to Littlefinger, and say something along the lines “But I’m already dead !”

  107. I think Littlefinger being there is the dead giveaway that it’s not what we think.

    There was also a Littlefinger and Sansa scene filled at Winterfell earlier, was there not?

    It makes me think that she isn’t reunited with Jon at the Wall but rather finds her way to Littlefinger… and he brings her back to Winterfell.

    Or, the alternative is something that was posted at Reddit, which is that Littlefinger and the Vale forces ARE at the big battle. Perhaps he comes alone, or perhaps LF comes with Sansa and she’s with him, not with Jon.

    Perhaps in this little meeting is where LF turns (or tries to turn) on Jon, after the battle is won or even drawn. After all, Jon foils his control over Sansa. He’d be happier in theory with Ramsey as Lord of Winterfell with Sansa as his wife, and barring that killing Ramsey and having Sansa by his side. Jon’s presence makes that much tougher.

    I HATE the thought of Sansa under his finger again, or owing him anything. I have to believe that at this point Sansa is smarter than turning on her family for LF.

  108. How about it was wildlings strapped on those crosses and Wun-wun is looking for some serious pay back?

  109. Pretty vague. I wonder why were the gates closed and why was a giant attacking it? If you assume that this is Wun Wun then it means Winterfell is still controlled by the Boltons. So then why are they in Winterfell if it was still held by the Boltons.
    I’m thinking It’s actually Ramsays execution we are seeing and Winterfell is back in Stark hands but Wun Wun goes into rage mode after being attacked by some soldier (Or wight giant, and the White Walkers are here). Something similar to Castle Black situation in Dance. This could also be when Sansa slays a giant in a castle of snow?

    This can go so many ways.

  110. Fez,

    I’m guessing it’s the very last scene of episode 9. Ramsay gets his due, and Sansa poisons Littlefinger in episode 10 after he thinks he’s won.

  111. Nadia,

    They were both filming at the Winterfell set (supposedly, in his case) on different days in early August. They may have filmed together, but it’s unknown.

    We know that Sansa is at Snowbowl, and that there is no sign of Littlefinger or any Arryn men there. All signs indicate she goes to Castle Black.

  112. Luka Nieto,

    Isn’t it thought the old woman is possibly

    a descendant of the CotF?

    I kind of like the idea that prophecy could turn out to be, unlike most prophecies, including the first part of it about the serpents, quite straightforward.

  113. I guess they didn’t tell you the part where Jon has Ramsay kneel before a block in Winterfell’s courtyard, and takes his head with Littlefinger and Sansa looking on approvingly? I can’t see it going any other way.

    Seems Wun Wun or someone else wants to get inside Winterfell quickly, does he see the walkers approaching?

    Edit: likely that Jon brings Ramsay in for execution, but look! The 20 good men storm the gate. Sansa, LF and Jon are hung on crosses and flayed. Ramsay sure makes it known to the audience that he is a bad bad guy.

  114. Nadia: I HATE the thought of Sansa under his finger again, or owing him anything. I have to believe that at this point Sansa is smarter than turning on her family for LF.

    I hate it, too. Sansa will only be smarter if she has had a way to become aware of exactly what other things LF has done, and why. Otherwise, she will make the same dumb mistakes where he is concerned, and the fandom will really turn venomous on her.

  115. GeekFurious: WHAT THE FUCK SHOW HAVE YOU BEEN WATCHING?! This is not a comeuppance show.

    Sure this story does not necessarily provide comeuppance.

    But the story also tries to be realistic. Getting the worse enemies within the realm together, fighting together with each other and singing Kumbaya around the camp fire is also not very realistic.

    We have already seen this effect between the Nights Watch and Wildlings. The Nights Watch has already practically been decimated from the attack of the Fist Of The First Men. They know about the threat, and it is even their main duty to protect the realms of men, yet they still could not work together.

    Logically it makes sense for everyone to just join up and fight together against the White Walkers, but it is not necessarily the way that people will act. It is very unlikely that the Boltons would actually work towards the greater good of the realm even if they knew the White Walker threat was real, they are just generally much more concerned with their own agenda. And if people are not willing to commit themselves to the cause of the White Walkers then it makes sense to eliminate them.

  116. My best guess is the Wight Walkers show up during the battle of the bastards and both sides seek shelter inside Winterfell, maybe the Giant is a Wight???

  117. This is BANANAS. B-A-N-A-N-A-S!

    This is so over-the-top cray, that I will have to see it, to believe that it’s true. However, if this scene ends with Ramsay being turned into an armless, legless, blood-drenched, Giant smoothie, I’m all for it.

  118. GeekFurious

    BECAUSE THIS IS NOT LORD OF THE RINGS.

    Thank GAWD, some sanity to the discussion.

    Seriously.. let’s everyone backtrack a bit. Sansa is NOT

    Jayne Poole in the books. So to reset her storyline back to the books, she’s got to be with Littlefinger – and have NOTHING special to do with Ramsey.

    Sansa’s not going to behave like Jayne Poole anymore.

    Steps that need to happen, that seem to have happened by this scene
    She’s been properly separated from Theon and the jump (Theon’s not in this scene, and it sounds like he’s in the Iron Islands)
    Sansa is reunited with Littlefinger and is potentially back to being his protege. If in the end book Sansa ends up north, we can presume she’ll travel with Littlefinger to get there.

    Now… in the books JON knows Ramsey’s evil, and the READER knows Ramsey is evil… but what does book Sansa and Littlefinger know? Are they on Ramey’s side? Why the hell not? Maybe they’re against the Wildings and zombie Jon? Would Littlefinger CARE that Ramsey’s evil? Not my Littlefinger, he helped kill Joffery, he’d kill Ramsey too if need be, if he rteally cared about Sansa. Which he doesn’t, not as a real person.

    I think people consider the idea that the Vale shows up late, or hides in Winterfell – but it isn’t part of the bastardbowl, and keep Sansa Sansa for now.

    So without book spoilers… WTF a Giant? Is it a free wildling giant running from WW and trying to hide inside the castle? Did Jon get captured, and is Wun Wun attempting a rescue? Does Sansa switch sides, kill Littlefinger and help Jon escape in the chaos? Excitement! I vote for Wun Wun trying to rescue Jon, and Sansa goes with them!

  119. Telperion:
    Any chance that Ramsay is actually the “savage giant.”He’s certainly savage, and Sansa slaying him makes more sense to me than slaying LF.Maybe this is a show deviation deviation from the books, since they didn’t go into LF’s ancetral sigil in the show, and they went to great lengths to build up the bad blood between Sansa and Ramsay (which wasn’t in the book).

    Yeah I post the same thing on Westros.org, they bypassed the prophecy of the maid, so I’m thinking it may be Ramsey, unless Wun Wun sees her and slays WunWun with her beauty.

  120. Sean C.,

    People are speculating he dies in TWOW. And Sansa probably hates his guts now, so I don’t see her trusting him. Perhaps using him to her end.

  121. I’m confused.com 🙂 But so long as Jon is alive and stays that way is the most important thing. But not happy about Ramsey and definitely don’t want him to be forgiven.

  122. What if…

    1) One of the bodies on the cross (as have been speculated) is Tormund… The wildlings and Wun Wun would be pissed off.
    2)Then the battle comes, with Jon and his allies (including the Vale troops) winning.
    3) After the battle, a cornered Ramsay try to negotiate with Jon and Littlefinger.
    4) During the negotiations, a mad Wun Wun gets into Winterfell, like “No Negotiations, Ramsay killed Tormund, he must die” and then proceeds to destroy some shit and kills Ramsay in a properly gruesome way.

    I’m probably wrong, but this is my best guess right now 🙁

  123. jentario:
    Mihnea,

    We have two main characters burning on a cross. I think we deserve a happy ending to season 6 after that.

    “Known characters”. Not necessarily main characters.

  124. GeekFurious,

    Plenty of people get their comeuppance in ASOIAF (Tywin and Joffrey, to name two, got exactly what they deserved in the end). The desire for justice is a huge theme in GRRM’s story, and also how hard it is to enact it. But he has flatly denied that the story is nihilist (unlike what some readers believe).

  125. I honestly believe almost all the “bad guys” including Ramsay will die in gruesome or humiliating ways before the series is over. So far when a bad guy’s role is over they die.

    It’s just not always done in a way the audience would like.

  126. This sounds really questionable.

    I know we don’t have any specific context, but in the larger context of every off-book D&D decision regarding Sansa’s character, I’m not feeling optimistic on her behalf.

  127. Maybe the battle ends in stalemate and jon meets with ramsay to talk terms and then giant white attacks with rest of white walkers and all of a sudden jon and ramsay are fighting side by side for the dawn. That would definetly be unique. Imagine us rooting for ramsay after everything.

  128. Sean C.:
    GeekFurious,

    Plenty of people get their comeuppance in ASOIAF (Tywin and Joffrey, to name two, got exactly what they deserved in the end). The desire for justice is a huge theme in GRRM’s story, and also how hard it is to enact it.But he has flatly denied that the story is nihilist (unlike what some readers believe).

    In the show, Meryn Trant got what he deserved as well.

  129. What if… The battle of the 6 armies, or whatever we’re calling it, isn’t Jon & Wildlings & Northerners versus Boltons and their allies. But rather, the Northerners (including Jon) versus the invading Wildlings? The Northerners lose, retreat back to Winterfell, but the gates can’t stop a giant. Really, really unlikely, I know (I can’t see Jon being an enemy to the Wildlings) but possible.

    Or, could be these scenes are in reverse order… Ramsay is defeated, flees back to Winterfell, Jon and the rest go to parley his surrender, Wun Wun acts as a battering ram, and then the tense scene in the courtyard plays out. Or Jon (and Sansa) are captured at the battle, or Jon hands himself over to Ramsay to save someone else, and Wun Wun comes to rescue them.

    I’m going to try* and not think too much on this… We don’t know enough about what’s actually going on here, I don’t think, and there’s just too many possibilities.

    *Probably not very effectively.

  130. Sean C.,

    Always confuses why Roose doesn’t get as much hate. He is the biggest turncoat in the series plus stabbed old Rob right in the heart! Guess it pays to keep a low profile! Whatever happens I hope he gets his comeuppance…for some reason, for me anyway, it wouldn’t be as sweet if it was by Ramsay. Fingers crossed Rickon and Shaggy tear him apart!

  131. GRRM makes it a point of showing that the pursuit of vengeance is empty. However, he does show that chickens do come to roost, for good or ill. So, that could certainly happen to Ramsay after all the things he’s done. Sansa would have to have the disposition of a saint to look at Ramsay, if the Stark forces prevail, and not want to throw him off a tower. And, while she’s a kind girl at heart, she’s no Baelor the Blessed, ya feel?

  132. BigMac,

    Either way, I think the North in season 6 will have the most uplifting ending in the series to date. Jon and Sansa getting together (and possibly, almost probably Rickon as well), a big victory in the battle, Ramsay and Roose dying… I can’t see it ending any other way. Littlefinger getting is just a personal hope/theory.

  133. AT,

    R U sure it was Sophie Turner in Heathrow Airport today?! If it w as her, she is supposed to b filming this big scene at Winterfelll this week?! Mayb will b back really soon?!

  134. has anyone thought that they may need to join up against the whitewalkers? this show has been an example of sacrifice and compromise…. even if it is a scene to kill ramsey, what is a giant doing busting in if not for some serious reason (we are assuming the giant is on jon’s side)… sounds like a crisis…. it would be the first defense: the realm, the north (good and bad north), and the wild-boyz, up against something far far worse…. just a thought

  135. Actually… this is driving me bonkers… so please if anyone can shoot me down.. I want to be shot down. Or I’m going to keep smashing against the same dumb wall over and over.

    Is there ANY spoilers, conformation, picture, or accidental misspoken line that leads us to believe that Sansa is

    on JON’s side in the battle of the Bastards/Snowbowl.
    Because all I feel I know is that Jon, Sansa and at least a third mystery Stark (Benjen, Rickon or someone else) is AT the battle. I want to believe Sansa is NOT. I seem to be the only one entertaining the idea.

    P.S. new current theory of the two on the crosses. Tormond and Roose – because they were going to make a truce together

  136. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I realize that previous sources said no White Walkers, but what if this is episode 10, and the dead on the battlefield begin to rise? Now wight!Wun Wun charges the gates of Winterfell, an army of dead Boltons, Karstarks, Umbers, Mormonts, Vale knights, and willings steadily approaches the castle

  137. Sounds awesome! I agree it must be after the battle. 🙂
    Are those 4 the only main characters on set?
    It looks like we are not having much Roose next season.

  138. Jared,

    I agree. Ramsay will kill Roose and Walda. And that’s a shame because I was hoping for more of the wonderful Michael McElhatton. I think – maybe hope is a better word – that Sansa is standing with Jon to determine Ramsay’s fate.

    Here’s how I would ideally like to see this play out:

    the giant storms the gates and provides Ramsay with an end similar to what Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain received in the books.
  139. I just had another, quite delicious idea… Ramsay and his allies lose the battle, Jon and the rest go to parley. Ramsay offers single combat to decide the whole affair, Jon shouts over his shoulder “Wun Wun, we need you!”.

  140. mariamb:
    Jared,

    I agree. Ramsay will kill Roose and Walda. And that’s a shame because I was hoping for more of the wonderful Michael McElhatton. I think – maybe hope is a better word – that Sansa is standing with Jon to determine Ramsay’s fate.

    Here’s how I would ideally like to see this play out:

    I hope Jon makes the Thenns eat him.

  141. Longtime reader, first time poster here with one hypothesis:

    After Ramsay has been defeated in battle and is cornered in Winterfell, he pleads with Sansa and Jon for his life.

    Littlefinger is about to propose one of his typically self-serving schemes when all of a sudden a resurrected Ned Stark pushes open the gate and remarks sarcastically, “They have a cave troll.”

    A giant smashes through the gate and stomps Ramsay into the mud. Jump cut to end credit listing M. Night Shyamalan as director.

    Note that I didn’t say it was a good hypothesis. 😉

  142. Ramsay won’t die this season. If he does, he’d kill himself before anyone could do it for him. I think there’s going to be a lot of disappointed people!

    Definitely going to be some interesting posts in the coming days. 🙂

  143. GeekFurious,

    Janos Slynt. Meryn Fucking Trant. More that I could add if I didn’t have this blasted head cold. It may not be as sugary as Frodo returning to the Shire but comeuppances are given, on occasion, in GoT.

    I have no inkling of what’s going on. And neither doesn’t anyone else besides those in the know. What we’ve got is hearsay and it’s all very out of context. I prefer to prepare to be exhilarated rather than let down.

  144. Ser Florian,

    At least logically, they shouldn’t be holding any parley in Winterfell. The point of such meetings is to meet on neutral ground, generally, when both sides’ leaders are involved. Winterfell wouldn’t be neutral — it’s the stronghold of whoever garrisons it.

  145. They will not kill Ramsey. They are careful not to kill off characters that can have huge impact. Ramsey may die but not as part of the north story line.

  146. Sean C.,

    Perfectly put, Sean. I always wondered if people think Tywin died of old age or Joff’s death was just indigestion gone bad. I also have a strong suspicion

    the Freys that were hanging in the woods

    were just playing with the rope on the tree branches and I believe there are bound to be some accidents and old age deaths too in the future books.

    EDIT: I see Lady Lyanna Targaryan added some of her own accidents.

  147. RosanaZugey:
    Wtf?!? The spoiler sounds like bad fanfic.

    As a side, if Sansa ACTUALLY kills a LITERAL giant, then all of speculation about her prophesy was way off.

    Your second sentence just made my evening. 😀

    This description is intriguing but doesn’t really give us much to go on. However, if Littlefinger and Jon Snow are also there with Sansa and Ramsay, I really doubt this is a straightforward recapture scenario.

    Agreed that this is mutually exclusive with that daft ‘Sansa burns on a cross’ scenario that some were convinced was going to happen.

    Like some other posters, I am deeply suspicious about the absence of Roose:

    The Sansa – Ramsay marriage was negotiated with Roose. Therefore why is Littlefinger talking with Ramsay?
    Jon Snow would want to negotiate with Roose, as he has been named Warden of the North by the Lannisters. There also is no reason for him to talk to the monkey instead of the organ-grinder.

    This seriously points to Roose having been murdered IMO.

  148. Lyanna_targaryen:
    GeekFurious,

    Janos Slynt. Meryn Fucking Trant. More that I could add if I didn’t have this blasted head cold. It may not be as sugary as Frodo returning to the Shire but comeuppances are given, on occasion, in GoT.

    The Tickler. ‘Nice sword. Think I’ll pick my teeth with it’.

  149. Simon,

    I think it would be more poetic if Ramsay was chased through the woods then torn apart by Nymeria’s pack…but that would require him to be in the Riverlands I guess!
    I think Theon isnt’t going to be around that part of the world much longer anywho.

  150. If this is post battle…it would lead me to believe that Jon and Sansa were captured by Ramsey.

    Maybe Jon’s side even won the battle – but Ramsey captured both of them and retreated to Winterfell. Don’t forget that Ramsey is stealth and a pretty good battle commander as evidence by holding off Yara’s attack on the Dreadfort and his “20 good men” against Stannis.

    There is no other reason why Wun Wun would attack the gates.

    Littlefinger is the wild card here. Have no idea what side he will be on my this point.

  151. First and foremost, from now on, all spoilers should end, “And then a giant tries to break in!”

    It really would keep things interesting.

    A few other thoughts…

    I’m not a fan of the logic that it’s GoT and GRRM so nothing good can happen. Yeah, being realistic means you can’t expect all of your favorites to win/live, but it also means that bad shit is evenly dispersed. There have and will be deaths that make us cheer (see: Joffrey). Ramsay will get his comeuppance, not because of narrative justice, but because no one stays on top in this world, especially those who make enemies with every act (see again: Joffrey).

    This scene is puzzling, though. I always imagined that Jon would meet Ramsay very much like he did Styr and Karl: recognition flowing immediately into a gleeful duel. The guy is just catnip for Big Bads. So I have to think that one of them is physically restrained.

    On the giant trying to “force his way in”…if it weren’t a giant that could just be someone trying to shoulder their way through a crowd to get in on a conversation. Maybe the gates aren’t closed? Maybe people are coming in and out and it’s more of a “Your kind isn’t allowed inside” sort of deal than a giant trying to break down the gate of an enemy-controlled fortress.

  152. Here is my issue with what is known. If they are indeed all there, and Jon w/the north did not lose the battle (if this is indeed post battle), why is the giant having to break into Wintefell?

    If Jon won I would assume he certainly wouldn’t be barring them from Winterfell let alone the castle they just liberated.

    Perhaps it’s a double-cross? A surrender setup by LF & Ramsay? Only thing I can think of unless he outright lost and is going to be executed (Jon) while Ramsay makes his sister witness it (would LF be ok with it? triple-cross? wtf?), then this would give the giant reason to break in. Otherwise it would have to be LF or Ramsay, after losing, trying to double-cross and kill/stab Jon/Sansa which enrages the giant. I don’t see it happen like that though.

    Pretty interesting either way, the story coming back together seems so epic due to all this tension that has built up waiting for twow. Sadly I think a lot of story might sound fanfic-ish until we have the book, some things I’m sure wont sound like they will be in the book, but until we have it we just won’t know.

  153. Whoa, beyond exciting!! Not as much for giants (giants are cool and all) but as the idea of these 4 in the same place.
    -Roose is dead?
    -Littlefinger survived the battle by waiting it out?
    -Sansa escapes to the forces of Jon and co from Ramsay, and is now back for revenge?
    -Littlefinger wants his girl back for sure
    -Jon and Sansa together!! FEEELS!!!!
    We need more info! And to know what episode it is (pre or post battle?) but whoa! mind is racing with possibilities 🙂

  154. I’d been assuming that the filming with Littlefinger and Sansa at Winterfell we knew about from before MUST have been from 6×10, since I didn’t think that Sansa would go anywhere near Winterfell while Ramsay was still living. It looks like that’s no longer a sure thing, although it’s still possible, I guess.

    The interesting thing for me is whether this new scene occurs BEFORE the 6×09 battle, or AFTER.

  155. I think we can throw away the theory that the giant is some sort of wight or zombie marching with an army.

    A ton of material has to happen this season – I doubt they would just throw in the White Walkers finding a way to get through the wall. It would have to happen pretty early in the season.

  156. Lulus Mum: if there was something he had to tell Jon say, like “White Walkers here now RUN LIKE FUUUUUUUUUK!” he’s not gonna just knock politely I’d imagine.

    This was my hearty laugh of the day

  157. Ser Florian,

    Jon being an enemy of the Wildlings is equally as impossible as Jon and Ramsey somehow teaming up. Jon is the only reason any remaining Wildling is still alive. And Ramsey raped his sister, sent him a very rude letter, and is the son of the man who killed his closest brother.

  158. Brett,

    Whilst I agree that the White Walkers will not be involved with the Winterfell arc it is inevitable that they will reappear in some capacity in Season 6. They’ve appeared in every season, but could’ve easily been omitted in Season 4 and Season 5.

    D&D want to keep them firmly within the audience’s mind, which is the right decision (and let the audience see Hardhome which pretty much everybody loved). They’re going to do something and whether that is associated with Bran or The Wall I would expect something imposing (obviously not a big battle like Hardhome, but D&D will want to emphasise the threat the White Walkers are).

  159. Boudica,

    it would be pretty sweet if the starks (jon and sansa) captured and executed both ramsay and littlefinger, but something tells me littlefinger will choose the right side, betray the boltons and possibly deliver ramsay to jon/sansa. then he just pleads ignorance on the boltons’ evil and keeps his “warden of the north” status on the down low. maybe he tries to marry sansa.

  160. ladywolfsbane,

    Well, Ramsay’s father still killed Sansa’s brother and the woman Littlefinger loved. He’s living in Sansa’s home because of treachery. Neither Sansa nor Littlefinger should have any allegiance to the Boltons at all, whether they know Ramsay is a psychopath or not. Now, will they use the Boltons for their own means and then murder them later? Sure. But no, they have no reason to just help Ramsay as if he’s some poor long-lost Stark bannerman.

  161. I think I can make this fit with my irrationally held theory of how it all goes down.

    Bof6A is the expected Jon + Wildlings against Boltons +Allies. Just as the battle starts to wind down LF and the army of the Vale arrive and do exactly what we expect…try to win by defeating the winner of the Wildings vs Boltons battle.

    All looking very traditional battle-ish until, what’s that ice fog coming over the hill? It’s the Others. It’s only at this point that everyone starts to actually believe that the real enemy is the Others. After some chaos and disbelief, they all band together under the leadership of the only man who has fought the Others and survived…Jon Snow. Jon and the Wildlings organize the survivors to gather and burn the dead, while a heroic WunWun tries to hold off the Others. They succeed in burning some/most of the fallen. WunWun dies in the process. He’s then resurrected as a wight, along with the battle dead that they weren’t able to burn.

    The survivors have retreated to Winterfell. Enemies are now very uncomfortable allies. They’re discussing what to do next, when unWunWun, and the new wight army, tries to break through the door.
    As an added tinfoil bonus, they’ll realize there’s something in the crypts that will help them defeat the Others. At least temporarily.

  162. Sean C.: That would never happen. Ramsay simply cannot be dealt with in that manner; even if you were inclined to overlook his past crimes toward the Starks, he has given more than ample proof that he will not honour deals and cannot even be counted on to act in his own self-interest.

    You are absolutely right that they’d be crazy to trust Ramsay in any way – especially since I realize now that he was portrayed as way worse in the books, if that’s possible.

    I’m still reeling from finding out on another thread that he poisoned Roose’s other son in the books.

    Having said that though, I’m looking forward to a lot of persuasive speeches from Jon to everyone trying to get them to work together. Maybe they threaten Ramsay, saying that if he doesn’t order his men to rally to Jon, they will end him right there. As someone said upthread, my mind is melting. I need a break. Think I’ll go read about how France is chasing the terrorists.

  163. fly on the Wall:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I realize that previous sources said no White Walkers, but what if this is episode 10, and the dead on the battlefield begin to rise? Now wight!Wun Wun charges the gates of Winterfell, an army of dead Boltons, Karstarks, Umbers, Mormonts, Vale knights, and willings steadily approaches the castle

    Wow…I had never considered this possibility…

    What if, if the WW’s are close enough to the Wall, they can raise the dead on the other side of it? Maybe that’s too tin-foily, I don’t know. We know wights can’t get though the wall when they’re animated, and we know some kind of magic protects the Wall/keeps the WW’s from being able to pass through, but I don’t think we have enough information to know whether that would prevent WW’s from raising wights on the other side of the Wall. It would certainly help to explain why a Giant would be trying to force his way into Winterfell…either he’s scared shitless, or has been raised.

    Again, maybe way too tin-foily…

  164. Boudica:
    This is really interesting news. It is a bit disappointing that Littlefinger will also be present. Except if both Ramsay and Littlefinger is going down.

    I would love that! What about those two crosses a guy viewed on the scene?

  165. L.:
    what. the. fuck.

    LOL

    A scene with Littlefinger, Sansa and Jon in Winterfell only makes sense for episode 10, AFTER the Battle in episode 9. What I don’t understand is why Ramsey is there, and how the heck he’s still alive at this point…

    And why would a giant attack Jon? Isn’t he commanding the Wildlings at this point? Check, at this point Tormund is probably calling him King Crow…for real, this time…

  166. Bearded Onion,
    mau,

    It can’t be anything else. And they won’t kill Ramsay in the battle. Sansa will order his death, and Jon will bring her his head.

    Yep but then why is the Giant going bersek and everyone has to fight him off if it is Ramsay’s execution ? I fail to see how this help plot-wise except if…. it gives Ramsay the opportunity to flee ?

    And more intriguing, the presence of LF in the North and how the relationship will evolve with other characters, mainly Sansa & Jon. I just hope that Sansa is not keeping her trust in LF and is on Jon’s side. I just hope that Jon is not fooled by LF.
    Phewww..
    So looking forward to this next season 🙂

    This sounds completely terrible unless it’s Ramsay captured post battle.
    Seriously, what the fuuuuuck?

    For the moment, yes, it sounds like bad fanfic. When I read it I couldn’t believe Sue wrote it. However, we need more details… it is like a rough sketch for now… Ahem… well… Crossing my fingers.

  167. Ser Florian,

    ..” Ramsay is defeated, flees back to Winterfell, Jon and the rest go to parley his surrender, Wun Wun acts as a battering ram, and then the tense scene in the courtyard plays out.”

    This is the best explanation so far that I have read. My own interpretation is just slightly different. I see it that the “Northern Armies” have Bolton on the run….where are they going to run to? Winterfell where Ramsay still has some troops I would think….he is pursued up to the gates and Wun Wun takes down the gate. Jon, Sansa and LF come in to face Ramsay for a final showdown.

    Now how they get there from here is anyone’s guess. I read that Ramsay is in it for the long run. Maybe they take him captive and toss him in the dog’s cages. That wouldn’t be bad. Just to hold until next season anyway.

    I see that Sansa comes to Jon at CB after the escape from Winterfell and the splitting with Theon/Reek. I am going to guess that LF comes in at the last minute turning the tide and fighting the Bolton army back to Winterfell.

    I have my own plans for LF that I have been saving in my head and it involves one….

    moon door

    Also….I read the books too and the prophesy by the Ghost of High Heart and I never understood how people attached THAT to Sansa. Just never did. I am sure there has been speculation a plenty on the subject, but nothing to ever show that it relates to Sansa, ever. Even Arya didn’t hear that prophesy…..I think it was Berek, Thoros and one other.

    How did people come to think this was Sansa with the hair and the purple snakes dripping venom and killing a giant in a snow castle?

    #veryexcitedforseason6 #toolongfromthismoment #hopetosurviveuntilthen

    🙂

  168. LF is still in KL
    Sansa is only just fleeing WF
    Jon is dead/dieing/yet to be healed.

    With this in mind, it has to be ep. 10 right? There is so much that needs to take place before they can all find themselves within WF.

    Assuming this is post Snowbowl, I’m curious who the two characters were that Ramsey displayed burning on Bolton crosses. My new guess would have to be the corpse of Stannis and the recently killed Roose (Ramsey attempting to take complete control of the North).

  169. Looper,
    Thanks! At least someone has reasoning for it.

    For the Red Wedding – I would think the Lannisters or the Freys would be higher on the hit list than the Boltons though?

    Late October, WotW

    “We can confirm that Sansa Stark will be there, and that Sophie Turner was seen filming alongside…THE BATTLEFIELD. The battlefield has a few Starks, actually, if you count Jon.”

    I’m going to go LALALALALA at all of you until I get better reason why Sansa or the Umbers or Karstaks or the Vale would NOT side along the other Northerners against an invading Wildling army lead by a bastard Zombie who dumped his Nights Watch vows to go fight an evil Hobbit nobody in the 7 kingdoms really knows about.

    Ned was a hero who did the right thing and tried to save the incest children
    Robb was a hero who did the right thing and married the girl
    Stannis did the most right thing possible and tried to be the King – because he WAS the rightful King
    Jon does the right thing and tried to sweep in dramatically and rescue Winterfell?

    So…how could that POSSIBLY be misunderstood by everyone in Westeros? Didn’t they read the books? Don’t the Northerners know that R+L = J and he’s a HERO and a king hanging out with Wildlings? To everyone but us in Westeros Jon is a bastard, a traitor, a wildling, and a zombie, and the White Walkers aren’t even real… until SANSA changes allegiances,

    “the North Remembers” but has no direction to go…yet..

  170. Bearded Onion,

    Precisely. There is no redemption for Ramsay. After all, this is tv-Middle Ages. Not the real Middle Ages. No sadistic rapist murderer can get to be a hero on tv.

  171. JCDavis: How did people come to think this was Sansa with the hair and the purple snakes dripping venom

    In the books, instead of Dontos giving Sansa a necklace, he gave her the hairnet with the venom which killed Joffrey.
  172. My theory:

    Sansa is captured by Ramsay during the battle or has been captured and returned to Winterfell before Jon marches South with army. Battles commences and after the battle the remaining Bolton forces return to Winterfell to be put under siege by Jon’s army. Ramsay threatens the death of Sansa if Jon doesn’t end the siege and so Jon and LF enter Winterfell to negotiate with Ramsay. Ramsay has no intention to negotiate and is attempting to lure Jon and LF in to assassinate them however Jon and LF foresee this and (not known to viewers) have planned final attack on Winterfell with their full forces and help of Wun Wun who Ramsay was not aware of until the giant is attacking the gates. Another battle starts and ultimately snow and snow are head to head and duel to death of Ramsay.

  173. Blackfish Blackfire:
    This is how I see this playing out…

    Roose agrees to Jon’s terms given that he is out numbered and that the WWs are coming. Ramsey sees this and kills Roose along with Fat Walda. Jon comes to Winterfell thinking that he is meeting Roose but ends up meeting Ramsey. They fight their way out. Ramsey burns Roose’s and Walda’s bodies before battle, battle happens. and I do think that the WWs will show up. maybe not the entire army but a small band that would unite all the armies in the south. Just enough so people do think that they are real. How else is Jon gonna convince people? This would set us up for the next season.

    Not bad!

  174. Sue the Fury,

    Oooooo…my brain is at a disadvantage today, so I hadn’t honed in on your word choice there. Yes, “interacting” is quite vague, and leaves so many possibilities open. 🙂

  175. Sue the Fury,

    Interacting is a lovely choice of words. I’m going back to lurking and licking my wounds… I want what I want to be true too bad right now… been waiting since 2011 when the book stabbing happened – Jon deserved it! Stabby Stabby! Jon is nobody to me until someone supports him other than the Wildlings and a couple Night’s Watchmen…

  176. If LF wants the north than the best way to get it would be to eliminate Jon, especially if people are thinking he’s Azor Ahai. If Jon was able to rally a large enough Stark force to fight a battle, then he’s probably got some serious clout at this point. This is how I see it:

    Jon and the Stark host win, but Ramsay manages to retreat to Winterfell with some of his men. LF convinces Jon to do a parlay, but secretly sets a trap. Bran has warged into a bird or something and is watching the parlay. When he sees Jon and Sansa in danger, he send in Wun Wun to fuck shit up.

  177. TheTouchOfFrost:
    Sansa’s giant-slaying prophecy coming true? I’m not entirely sure how it can happen but surely it must be through something she sets into motion as I can’t see her bringing one down first-hand.I guess the big question is whether the giant is alive or dead already?

    What Sansa slaying the dragon prophecy????

  178. Ser Florian,

    It’ll still be pretty bad. Sansa, Jon, LF and Ramsay “interacting” (maybe not even talking) when all of a sudden some massive giant attacks the gate and everyone has to team up to fight it off. None of it makes sense right now.

  179. This confirms it… Jon and Sansa rule the North and the only thing they have to do before another wedding is execute Ramsey by way of Wun Wun who is very excited.

  180. The worst will be if Ramsay beats and captures Jon until Giant/Wildlings/whoever do something…That would undermine Jon’s resurrection and transformation into ‘the man’, AAR or whatever. And it would turn Ramsay into an even bigger villain sue/Rambo.

  181. TheTouchOfFrost:
    Sansa’s giant-slaying prophecy coming true? I’m not entirely sure how it can happen but surely it must be through something she sets into motion as I can’t see her bringing one down first-hand.I guess the big question is whether the giant is alive or dead already?

    What Sansa giant slaying prophecy??

  182. Isn’t it known that Ramsay and Jon engage in single combat? How does that resolve with this? Any chance that Ramsay in this new leaked scene is a corpse? I don’t see why, but if there’s that single combat, it’s hard to imagine that not ending with somebody dying.

  183. JCDavis: How did people come to think this was Sansa with the hair and the purple snakes dripping venom and killing a giant in a snow castle?

    That’s why my first reaction when I read of it today was that she was talking about a vision of Dany – maybe at a Dothraki feast we haven’t seen yet. Dany flies north of the Wall on Drogon, while someone flies the other two dragons (serpents in her hair?) and kills … a giant wight army?

  184. Sue the Fury:
    lucas,

    Well, I didn’t actually specify talking. I said interacting. Usefully vague word.

    Ohoho! The plot thickens!

    One thing I’m vague on is the timing. Sansa, Jon and Littlefinger share screen time at some point, clearly, but what’s the order here?

    1. Sansa escapes WF, Littlefinger arrives with his Vale army to scoop her up, Jon is resurrected and comes south and Sansa/Littlefinger meet with him and face Ramsay?
    2. Sansa escapes WF, Jon comes south and meets with Sansa, and later Sansa/Jon meet up with Littlefinger’s forces?
    3. Littlefinger hears of Jon’s resurrection, writes to Jon suggesting a teamup against Ramsay, Sansa finds her way to Jon/Littlefinger’s assembled forces?

  185. This is possibly the most exciting Season 6 spoiler for anything north of King’s Landing, AFAIAC. 😀 These four main characters in a tense scene inside Winterfell? Must be Episode 10. Also, by his absence, I feel a little more sure that Tormund is dead before now. One of the two on the burning crosses? By his absence, Roose must be dead too. Could’ve died in battle or patricide. Rickon must also be dead. If a giant is trying to break in, I imagine that the Winterfell forces may have won the battle. So…… did LF come and actually fight on Ramsay’s side and help him win? I do wonder where Davos and Mel are by the time of this scene? Also dead?

  186. If this is true, the 4 of them being together sounds plausible. The giant however does not. There are a few things i could think of that would explain the giant however.

    The 4 are together, but not by choice. IE 1 2 or maybe even 3 are being held hostage.

    Maybe it is after the battle (or during) and lets say one of the following is tru.e

    Ramsay is held captive by the other 3.
    Ramsay and LF held hostage
    Jon & Sansa held hostage (could explain why a giant is knocking).
    Sansa & LF held hostage, and Jon intervenes.

    If it is after the battle, and Jon has won, why would a giant be trying to knock the doors down unless it is a WW.

    I could see this happening during the battle. Jon (+ maybe Sansa &or LF) sneak into Winterfell though the crypts, or some other passage. (Remember isnt there something in the books about there being a passage all the way to the wall from WF underground?).
    Maybe Jon sneaks in to try and save Sansa during the battle, finds Ramsay and then Wunwun decides he has waited enough and tries to break in.

  187. Very crackpot theory:
    Jon and Sansa’s army arrive to winterfell. Before the battle beggins, Littlefinger advices Ramsay. Ramsay sends a messenger to sansa and jon asking them to meet him in winterfell.
    Jon and Sansa goes with wun wum as bodyguard, ramsay offers them the deal (maybe involving rikon) that littlefinger planned. Sansa and jon refuses. And littlefinger is one of the bodies at the cross. And now, it beggins…
    Or maybe is just after the battle, jon, sansa and litlefinger enter to winterfell and kill ramsay.

  188. Curious, Sue retweeted something from GameOverRos that includes a tweet from AngryGoTFan…and I don’t follow AngryGoTFan so I can’t see it. What does it say?

    Thanks.

  189. Lulus Mum:
    HotPinkLipstick,
    Found that picture you were looking for in the previous thread. There’s some very strange lighting in that shop, it’s almost as if someone’s cut out two of the heads from other photos and stuck them on top of the people who should be there!

    I have been busy all day and just saw this. Wooooodoggies, did I need that giggle.

    I declare you as my FAVORITE.

  190. I am surprised that people haven’t realized this is obviously the scene where Sansa “slays a giant in a castle made of snow”. This should be great! 🙂

  191. If Ramsay captures Sansa or Jon he’ll simply kill them right away since the North is rebelling for them.

    Also story wise, Ramsay has to lose the battle. His story is done. The Starks can’t lose their entire army minus 1 giant and get fucked up yet again. It’s boring.

    D&D seriously need to have bad stuff happen to Ramsay already, he’s burnt WF, broke Theon, beat the best of the Ironborn shirtless, Took Moat Callin, Got legitimized, married and raped Sansa, destroyed all of Stannis’ supplies and siege equipment with just 20 men, crushed Stannis in the field of battle. Nothing bad has happened to Ramsay, nothing. Tywin and Joff suffered tons of problems before they died, Ramsay just gets everything he wants without any trouble, it’s getting seriously stupid now if he beats Jon & Sansa then captures them.

    He has to lose this battle, the Starks need to win.

  192. Two questions/possibilities…

    Anyway that it is not sansa but instead melisandre?

    And two… if Ramsay sees the proverbial writing on the wall and knows he is done, he can kill his father, say it was all roose and meet with Jon and LF. They all accept his statements until sansa comes in and tells Jon what Ramsay did to her and theon. At which point Jon takes longclaw and is the one to swing the blade fot his sister (cousin?) Sansa.

  193. Sue the Fury:
    lucas,

    Well, I didn’t actually specify talking. I said interacting. Usefully vague word.

    Well, this takes down the “they band together to fight a common enemy, the White Walkers” interpretations. I figure the battle of Winterfell becomes literally that, has its final moments/outcome indoors.

    Perhaps Littlefinger has come in with the Vale guys at the last minute, and oversees Ramsay’s execution. Wun Wun represents the Wildling contingent, and does not want to be left out.

  194. Lollyspop:
    I actually want this to be true. But aren’t the giants CGI? How can the source have seen a giant bustin through the gates?

    Because they rehearse scenes and design them before they film them and set everything up. Even if you can’t see a giant, people working on the set know where one is supposed to be.

  195. Sean C.,

    You keep saying that, but we got ONE really blurry picture where you could make out some but not all banners. And if the Valemen come later, that is entirely likely AND consistent with someone saying LF was filming there AND two scenes where he’s filming with Sansa at Winterfell.

    And if the Vale aren’t in the fight, which you keep insisting with no basis either way, then it’s even more likely what I said, which is that Sansa is with Littlefinger before this huge battle and not at the Wall with Jon.

  196. ladywolfsbane,

    About “Robb was a hero who did the right thing and married the girl.”

    Marrying Talisa was the mistake that made Robb end up being killed and betrayed by the Freys and Boltons under the offer of Tywin.
    If he would’ve been less stubborn and less horny and more aware of why marrying one of Freys daughters was neccesary to win the war, there may be a chance that he would still be alive by now.
    But i guess that even if Robb would have married one of Freys daughters the Red Wedding would’ve happened anyway because Walder is just a old douchebag and Roose is a traitor who hates the Starks and the whole wedding was a huge advantage for Tywin to execute Robb.

  197. According to the sources Sansa is present in the Snowball and now again with Jon at WF. Which means almost for sure that Sansa will head to CB after the jump and will spend quite a time there before marching to do some diplomacy work before the battle. In the description of this “family” scene three characters shine with their absence Melisandre, she who would walk WF’s crypts (maybe she is doing just this while the others toasting and chilling out after the battle), Davos and Roose. I am not totally convinced that Roose will be a casualty this season. I suspect that he somehow will escape southwards and this in combination with the information that Jaimie will be heading northwards after the RR siege make me think of this certain Lannister paying his respects to the old Bolton somewhere in the middle. Just a feeling. Now Davos’ absence is curious but then again it is just a scene, he might be doing something else or hanging (around) somewhere else or he is sent back to CB to get a great first view of its falling down ( I always thought that he would make an excellent LC). There is a fourth absence that of Rickon and here I have no clue at all… If this scene signals the victory of Jon, Sansa and co then we have an interesting development. Sansa has for the first time utter control over LF. If this scene is about Ramseys demise and LF is present then Sansa has an opportunity to play real games with and send enough implicit messages to the mockingbird to titillate him under his feathers.

  198. So much delicious dialog possible –
    “Heard you died.”
    “I did.”
    “As a member of the Nights Watch you have no interests here.”
    “My watch is over.”
    “She is my wife!”
    “She will be your widow.”

  199. dothrakian raven,

    It’s not sure at all?? There was a spoiler earlier that Sansa and Littlefinger filmed a scene at Winterfell earlier. It could very easily be explained that Sansa goes/gets to LF after her jump, and comes to Winterfell with him.

  200. Edith,

    If Littlefinger is there BEFORE the battle then again – unlike what Sean C keeps insisting – there were spoilers that LF was there as well.

    AND it means that Sansa is almost certainly with him and not at Castle Black with Jon, and she comes to the battle with Littlefinger, not Jon. And LF does it because he sees his chance to be Warden of the North with Sansa.

    I am so tired of Sansa with LF but this seemed inevitable anyway.

  201. Nadia:
    dothrakian raven,

    It’s not sure at all?? There was a spoiler earlier that Sansa and Littlefinger filmed a scene at Winterfell earlier. It could very easily be explained that Sansa goes/gets to LF after her jump, and comes to Winterfell with him.

    What was the point of telling Sansa about Jon at CB? Also go to WF with him, why? She won’t return there with the Boltons still incharge. Also what about Theon…? LF wouldn’t let him go that easily and we know where he’s headed. Also the Boltons weren’t at WF in that scene, we only know Sophie was there and that LF’s trailer was sighted in the area. Nothing else.

    In any case, Liam Cunningham said Sansa has a amazing arc this season, that means she has stuff to do this season and not just be LF’s toy. Also Royce has minimal filming this year, so has Aiden Gillian while Sophie has been constantly filming and at the same time as Kit. She’s going to CB.

  202. dothrakian raven,

    I suspect that he somehow will escape southwards and this in combination with the information that Jaimie will be heading northwards after the RR siege make me think of this certain Lannister paying his respects to the old Bolton somewhere in the middle.

    I really hate to keep jumping in with this, but there is no information that we have that suggests Jaime is heading northward, none. The only information we have is that he’ll go places other than Riverrun by Episode 10. Nothing about north, south, east or west. So while he very well may head north, I have not read one bit of actual information that supports this.

    My suspicion is that Roose is either dead or wherever Walder Frey is (at the Twins maybe).

  203. Nadia,

    The scene you are talking about provide US with no adequate ground to support your thesis. It is a scene with the two of them. It could be just a few secs and we have no idea what they are saying. In my mind Sansa will head to CB after the jump. It seems as more persuading to do diplomacy work against the Boltons than to chitchating with LF for a whole season.

  204. Also this being pre Battle makes a deal more sense, but why the hell would Sansa & Jon want to parley with Ramsay……? They need him dead. He wouldn’t agree to anything they ask.

    Sounds like the Giant is indeed on the side of Sansa and Jon though, so no Ramsay teaming up bullshit.. thank god.

    Also this confirms for me Ramsay’s fucked! Huzza.

  205. This sound weird… Why a giant would want to crash WF? To save/protect Jon? To kill everybody?

    trarecar: Yeah, after I posted that, I realized that it would be a great empowering moment for her, IF in fact she finally has the upper hand over him.With Jon there I hope she does.

    Face your abuser it’s not empowering.
    Being captured by your abuser again and uses as a hostage is not empowering.
    Being rescued by a knight in black armor it’s not empowering.
    Being rescued by a sneaky smug it’s not empowering.
    Being a wannabe player thanks to LF it’s not empowering.
    Being a wannabe player thanks to Jon it’s not empowering.
    Being in a meeting in which there’s one who wants your claim and raped you, one who who wants your claim and wants to rape you and your halfbrother came back from the death it’s not empowering.
    Being in a meeting in which the three characters can use her as a political tool against her will it’s not empowering.
    Being a Stark in a scene involving LF is horrible.
    Being a Stark in a scene involving Ramsay is horrible.

    This is another Sansa being scared crying on a corner again or used to start the JonxSansa ship. And if the only idea they give about how to deal with abuse is some sort of Sansa choping Ramsay’s head is awful

  206. I’m thinking Jon leads a one-man infiltration mission to rescue Sansa, who is with Littlefinger and doing… whatever, something… with Ramsay. Or perhaps it isn’t a one-man op, but it isn’t the main course.

    This is pre-battle, in line with L7R’s statements. Roose isn’t necessarily dead — he’s quite possibly readying the armies or what-have-you. Jon’s caught sneaking around, political dialogue and Ramsay being a freak ensues, and then WunWun (or some other giant) comes to the rescue.

  207. Bearded Onion,

    Los Siete Reinos said it’s before the battle. Why would Sansa go there with Jon alone like that? Makes no sense unless she is there with LF. I hate to see her being LF’s puppet for his schemes. Basically Jon wants them to surrender, LF is playing his games to trick them and Ramsay is psycho.

    Sophie has been constantly filming her scenes much like Kit? Not really true apart from she will be at the Battle and there at this scene. Otherwise Kit filmed something in summer and it certainly wasn’t anywhere near Moneyglass where Sophie filmed and Aiden aswell. Since then Sophie didn’t do much unlike Kit who was seen in and out of Belfast frequently. Ramsay mentioned Jon to Sansa, but like I said nothing is certain.

    Edith,

    Interesting. Maybe it’s some kind of parlay and Jon wants to negotiate, but he knows that Boltons needs to be destroyed. That theory about Jon coming to negotiate peace or some kind of truce with Roose and then Ramsay killing Roose makes sense. If he send Davos or Tormud as envoy it makes sense for them to be tied to the cross. Jon will manage to leave Winterfell thanks to Wun Wun and then battle ensures.

  208. SlayerNina,

    Good to know you’ve already seen the episode in question. Anything else you can tell us about what happens?

    /sarcasm

    btw – I don’t know if you’ve ever had to face an abuser, but facing down one’s demon, especially when/if it involves some sort of justice being meted out, can, at the very least, be quite cathartic for some.

  209. Edith,

    Any confirmation for this? It is strange to have this scene before the battle. Well that means that Wun Wun will save Jon and Sansa, if Sansa is to be present at the battle. But what about LF? Hm, very strange scene…

  210. Geralt of Rivia,

    Exactly all of what you said. Lots of commentators are missing the mark here.

    JON WOULD NOT TAKE SANSA WITH HIM TO RAMSEY IN WINTERFELL. All of you acting like that makes sense, that’s the dumbest theory ever – if she ran to Castle Black to him and told him everything that’s happened, you think Jon Snow would be like “why don’ t you walk right back into Winterfell with me right before we start a battle and chat with Ramsey?”

    That is not happening.

    If Littlefinger is there – and if Sansa and Littlefinger have filmed a separate scene at Winterfell – and this is before the battle as Los Siete imply, then Sansa is there with Littlefinger. Either she comes to the battle with LF and the Vale army, or she’s already at Winterfell with LF.

    There are no spoilers to support Sansa is with Jon at the Wall. It’s all our speculation. We know she filmed a scene with LF at Winterfell. We know she’s at the battle. None of that implies she comes or was with Jon at all. And Jon Snow would not take Sansa back into Winterfell. Littlefinger would.

  211. SlayerNina,

    What would be empowering to you? As someone who has been abused and been able to face my abuser and see him face legal justice was empowering. So, I frankly resent you saying that facing your abuser is, point blank, not empowering. I also disagree that people wanting to use Sansa as a tool makes whatever scene she is in not empowering. Wouldn’t Sansa’s actions in reaction to people wanting to make her a tool determine whether she’s a self-actualized, empowered character in that scene?

    If Sansa has to be rescued by anyone without her being able to be proactive, that wouldn’t be empowering for her as a character. I can agree on that alone.

    Sidenote, I don’t personally care about empowered, Strong Female Character tropes. It’s not what makes a character valuable to me. With that said, I do want Sansa to get the upper hand on Ramsay somehow and that comes purely from my own experiences. Will that happen? Who knows? But, I hope.

  212. dothrakian raven,

    Again, for the millionth time, it makes sense if Sansa is WITH LITTLEFINGER. If Sansa runs to Jon after all she’s suffered, he wouldn’t take her back into Winterfell to meet/capture/whatever Ramsey. Littlefinger would.

    There’s zero evidence except for THIS battle that Kit and Sansa are filming together. He’s been filming that for a long time apparently. She hasn’t been. She hasn’t been spotted filming where the Wall would be or at the studios at the same time as Kit.

    She has, however, been seen filming now two scenes with Littlefinger at Winterfell.

  213. Bearded Onion:
    If Ramsay captures Sansa or Jon he’ll simply kill them right away since the North is rebelling for them.

    Also story wise, Ramsay has to lose the battle. His story is done. The Starks can’t lose their entire army minus 1 giant and get fucked up yet again. It’s boring.

    D&D seriously need to have bad stuff happen to Ramsay already, he’s burnt WF, broke Theon, beat the best of the Ironborn shirtless, Took Moat Callin, Got legitimized, married and raped Sansa, destroyed all of Stannis’ supplies and siege equipment with just 20 men, crushed Stannis in the field of battle. Nothing bad has happened to Ramsay, nothing. Tywin and Joff suffered tons of problems before they died, Ramsay just gets everything he wants without any trouble, it’s getting seriously stupid now if he beats Jon & Sansa then captures them.

    He has to lose this battle, the Starks need to win.

    Hail to Ramsay Sue, the Villain Sue!

  214. Nadia,

    But you don’t provide us with any proof for what you are saying. Yours is also a speculation and I would add a dumb one. Even if the scene is before the battle it makes more sense for Sansa to be with Jon than with LF. If she heads to CB there are things for her to do and prove that she is working hard for the Stark cause. This is the only viable way for her. To hang around with LF for the whole season (playing what kind of game?) it is just a waste of her character. The scene with LF was just a scene. It could be a few secs and just a short dialogue. There is no other leak to prove that they have had common scenes except this last one.

  215. All these speculations are pretty funny, can’t wait for the scene, sounds like it’s going to be one hell of a interaction.
    Sansa and Jon snow meeting is going to be a good scene, first time interacting on the show.
    What makes this spoiler even better is the fact that everyone is trying to wrap there decapitated heads around it, I love it when everyone is clueless ^^
    man it still seems like they are filming like crazy, and December is the last month they film. Really can’t wait for the first trailer ^^

  216. Nadia,

    How do you know that Sophie hasn’t been at CB filming? That Jon has been seen so many times was because of the interest media had about his “hair” and “death”. That Kit and Sophie has not been spotted at CB doesn’t mean that they haven’t filmed together. If I remember well we haven’t seen neither Davos nor Melissandre at CB. What conclusions can we draw out of it?

  217. Sue the Fury:
    lucas,

    Well, I didn’t actually specify talking. I said interacting. Usefully vague word.

    Well this just makes me go over all of the wording. A scene with great deal of tension, eh?

    Seeing as that is pretty much a given in any GoT scene, I’m guessing Sue’s hinting at Ramsay’s execution by hanging.

    Makes a lot of sense if Sansa becomes Lady of Winterfell/Queen of the North that “the woman who passes the sentence should kick out the stool,” so to speak. I don’t really see her beheading anyone.

  218. Lisse,

    Not a Strong Female quota or some shit. But given the show record in which any agency or character development she had (like not kneeling or planning with Dontos her scape) was cut, half of her interactions were about how she’s crying or scared (even with characters she’s not supposed to be scared or where she keeps a neutral face) or and making her even more passive… I think it’s a good question.

    My bets are on she’s with LF totally ok and not questioning why he sold her and marrying Jon after season 6 (or given the Improved Gf Treatment, like they did with Shae and Talisa so Jon could have the wife he deserves).

  219. Luka Nieto,

    if i had to guess at the closest way this would NOT be bad fan fic is the following, this has to take place AFTER the battle Ramsay is captured and the vale and north are figuring out what to do with prisoners and Ramsay (he wouldnt make a good hostage to roose if he still lives as fat walda carries his new heir).

    id assume sansa is with them as part of the victorious side and that she may cast sentence on Ramsay(and ideally swing the sword) how the giant ties it is i think sadly it will be WUN WUN dead and some how re-animated as a white walker(others have theorized about this as well) and its a crazed reanimated giant they are fighting in this scene.

    now to go full ridiculously tinfoil: i think as much as we don’t want to hear it Ramsay still has a purpose,when they kill him they wont burn him so that he turns into a white walker,as with most of the realm refusing to believe that the white walkers are even real if they can some how “turn him” and tie him up/restrain him and then bring him with them to the south to show the realm that the white walkers are real. people used to not believe in dragons tell Danny started riding one around and burning people,most of the watch didn’t believe in white walkers tell they were attacked by them same of the dire wolves and giants and mammoths. people especially in this time period tend to believe what they can see and tangibly interact with

  220. Uhm…in the original outline, didn’t Sansa give birth to Joff’s kid and choose him over her family? Maybe GRRM is doing that with Sansa in Winds, having her choose the father of her child over Ramsay, or appear to do so. If Ramsay hunts her down and captures her (Theon getting away, maybe Brienne getting her face chewed in the process) and takes her back to Winterfell, it’s totally possible that the interaction in the courtyard is Jon trying to take her away and her refusing, or at least appearing to refuse, …

    Maybe Ramsay is planning to assassinate Jon during their talk and Sansa knows and she’s actually trying to give Jon the headsup. LF is …I don’t know, sleazing because that’s what he does best. When the talk starts to go bad for Jon, Wun Wun breaks down the door….

  221. dothrakian raven,

    Jon would never risk her life or if it’s true he goes there with her. Then he’s being reckless. Tormund, Davos, Mel are possible and understandable options.

    While I agree that being LF puppet will be waist for her character and it goes against my theory. If she meet LF on the run, she will tell him everything and then goes to WF again like in season 5.

  222. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    SlayerNina,

    Good to know you’ve already seen the episode in question.Anything else you can tell us about what happens?

    /sarcasm

    btw – I don’t know if you’ve ever had to face an abuser, but facing down one’s demon, especially when/if it involves some sort of justice being meted out, can, at the very least, be quite cathartic for some.

    If they met before the battle, it means Ramsay was able to arrive to the battle. Not justice there.
    If they met after the battle… What kind of justice would be that.

    Even if Ramsay is killed-justice-karma-blablabla, she just can’t forget how she was raped, how she was used by LF (and everyone) and how she has to marry again to keep her title as a Lady/Regent of the North/Queen/Whatever (if she’s still having it, since she had married twice, or its Boltons’ now or its Lannisters’ because Tyrion is still alive). Unless she’s totally ok with Jon being the King just because. It’s disappointing.

  223. Also, if LF recaptures Sansa outside WF, what then? LF and the Vale army sit outside WF doing nothing? What does LF do when Roose demands Sansa back, or if Ramsay demands it? Why bother with telling Sansa about Jon at CB? Why does Royce have such little filming? Why does LF appear out of nowhere right after Sansa jumps? Why is Theon, a extermely valuable asset even in his current state let go by LF? Why does Liam Cunningham claim Sansa has a amazing arc if she just ends up being LF’s prawn yet again in WF? What has Sansa got to do?

    She has to go to CB, if they wanted her to stay with LF they would have done so before. As to why she goes back to WF with Jon, she knows LF is there and wants to face Ramsay? Doesn’t want Jon to go alone? There’s plenty of reasons for her to go with Jon. There’s no reason for her to be some pointless character with no payoff yet again with LF.

    Sansa’s character has to have some serious payoff and that starts with her helping Jon.

  224. Geralt of Rivia,

    What if it is Sansa who insists on coming with Jon? Again we do not know exactly the placement of the scene. I am not sure if what L7S claims can be confirmed…

  225. Lyanna_Targaryen,

    I think your theory makes more sense, in TV and film some scenes are filmed before others, so I feel like Jon will enter Winterfell with Sansa and LF to try and negotiate or get him out, he refuses and or threatens them (this would back up the tension adjective) and then Wun Wun will break in and something will happen leading into the Battle of the Bastards, WOOO.

  226. If Sansa runs to Castle Black and tells Jon all of what Ramsey did to her and they march to Winterfell to take it back from Ramsey….on what planet would he LET her come with him inside Winterfell?? Since this scene is before the battle (which makes sense with the giant attacking – to save Jon?), then in theory the Northern armies are not far away.

    Again, on what planet would Jon Snow bring Sansa into Winterfell to face Ramsey with the possibility of war looming?

    It only makes sense if Sansa is there already on there with LF, not just Jon.

  227. Kilgore Tully:

    Makes a lot of sense if Sansa becomes Lady of Winterfell/Queen of the North that “the woman who passes the sentence should kick out the stool,” so to speak. I don’t really see her beheading anyone.

    Well, a “strong character” here is the one using vagina skills or the one using weapons… That’s why she recived the “needle” necklace with the DarkSansa dress, acording to the costume designer… I can totally see a scenario in which she shows her badassery hanging Ramsay ¬¬

  228. Edith,

    Javi only actually said:

    It seems that this scene precedes the great battle which we weeks talking about, and which already had lots of data. We talked of the giant who participates in it. The most interesting is to confirm that Sansa and Jon reunite, possibility that was speculation from the outset, and that pinkie will be there, accompanied by troops of the Valley, is to be expected.

    Which sounds more just like his interpretation of Sue’s information rather than a scoop of his own.

  229. Nymeria Warrior Queen:

    Thanks for that reminder, I do recall that being batted about. The only thing that doesn’t work for the SHOW….is that is not the way that Joff dies. She has a necklace, not a hairnet of poison. So it would be hard to introduce the “prophesy” at this point belonging to Sansa, as there is no build up for it and…not really addressed to you…. but….

    Anyone that thinks that Sansa is going to take down a giant, especially if it IS Wun Wun……well I don’t know what to say. She just barely got verbally defensive last season, I just can’t see her as a warrior princess of Winterfell or anywhere else. /two cents

    I also have a private thought that has been rolling about….and that is that Sansa is……

    Pregnant with Ramsay’s child

    I am not unique in this thought I have read it before…..but that would change things in the shipping department for Sansa and anyone else.

  230. I suspect that the giant trying to break in may be something to do with what Ramsay does with those crosses before the battle. Maybe Thormund is one of the little presents he leaves out for the approaching army… and after the battle, as Jon and Sansa go to parley with Ramsay, who has locked himself in WF, Wun Wun is going mental outside trying to get in to hulksmash the monster who killed his friend. This is the only option that makes sense to me in the context of what we already know… otherwise I fear I may be heartbroken with other potential possibilities!

  231. dothrakian raven:
    Geralt of Rivia,

    What if it is Sansa who insists on coming with Jon? Again we do not know exactly the placement of the scene. I am not sure if what L7S claims can be confirmed…

    I only can see that in a scene she’s like “my brother is gonna kick your ass”. O.O

  232. SlayerNina,

    So you’re judging and condemning something you have not even seen… Can’t say that I’m surprised. There are things that never change.

  233. dothrakian raven,

    What proof? There’s no proof for either except for speculation on what makes sense.

    You’re wrong about filming spoilers. People are obsessed with tracking Kit’s movements, and you think if there was any information about Kit and Sophie filming together it WOULDN’T leak? Case in point – when Sue confirmed Sansa would be at the battle and everyone flipped the f out because it meant Sansa and Jon would be on the battlefield together. So, if there were other instances, you bet people would be obsessed with tracking it down.

    What we do know is that Sansa and LF have another scene together in Winterfell, at a time when Kit was nowhere near.

    Can you explain to me on what planet Jon Snow would take Sansa into Winterfell before a battle? And why on earth would he bring Littlefinger with him if it was totally up to him or he was on his own?

    No one KNOWS what is happening with proof except perhaps Sue. But one can speculate smartly or blindly. Sansa making it all the way on her own to Castle Black in the middle of winter chased by Ramsey’s troops seems virtually impossible. It seems much more likely that Sansa is with Littlefinger – comes to the battlefield with him or before that even.

  234. dkd,

    How the hell do you expect sansa to swing a sword. The girl couldn’t even slap sweetrobin with enough conviction.

  235. How many giants are there, exactly? They left the impression that only one giant boarded the ships leaving Hardhome. Anyway, I guess they only need one giant for this.

    Maybe the Wildlings are amassed outside Winterfell while Jon, Sansa et al are inside…and tense?

  236. Bearded Onion,

    Exactly this! She escaped with Theon by jumping from the walls. And we know that Theon is at the Iron Islands in the first few episodes. It really does not make any sense that they will just say bye-bye and part to different directions after the jump. Theon would never let her go anywhere without making sure she is safe. The fact that he has gone to IIs without her it can only mean that he made sure that she is in safe hands. The only person around to protect her is Brienne. LF is still at KL or on his way to Vale when Sansa and Theon jump from the walls.

  237. JCDavis:
    I also have a private thought that has been rolling about….and that is that Sansa is……

    I am not unique in this thought I have read it before…..but that would change things in the shipping department for Sansa and anyone else.

    And where the claim is now? The child inherits the North, she back up because Rickon and Bran are alive, she’s deshinerited because the marriage is valid (but northern lords don’t want a Bolton being their lord) or not valid because she was still married to Tyrion? That’s a good question on the speculation field…

  238. dothrakian raven:
    Bearded Onion,

    Exactly this! She escaped with Theon by jumping from the walls. And we know that Theon is at the Iron Islands in the first few episodes. It really does not make any sense that they will just say bye-bye and part to different directions after the jump. Theon would never let her go anywhere without making sure she is safe. The fact that he hasgone to IIs without her it can only mean that he made sure that she is in safe hands. The only person around to protect her is Brienne. LF is still at KL or on his way to Vale when Sansa and Theon jump from the walls.

    If Brienne lets Sansa in LF’s hands, she’s more than dumb… And where is Bri, btw?

  239. Greenjones,

    Correct. This is just his thoughts and interpretation. He’s not actually confirming it takes place before the battle.

    Jessie,

    Being filmed this week, yes. Like we said in the original post.

  240. Nadia,

    About Sansa entering Winterfell, this could be a false report as people have stated, but there are some possible reasons as to why she would. Sansa may want to her go in with Jon, a simple line could change it all “I want to be there”. Weather it be to show strength or simply to spite Ramsay.

  241. SlayerNina,

    Facing one’s abuser and seeing some sort of justice (however you want to dismiss it with your “justice-karma-blablabla” quip) does not equal one’s mind being erased. It can, however, lead to the person who was abused regaining at least some feeling of control… a control which was taken from them by the abuser, and thus be a form off empowerment/catharsis. You’re welcome to find the possibility, and it’s only your speculation, you present as disappointing, and if you have been abused, faced your abuser, and did not come away with any sense of what I described, I’m genuinely sorry for you, but if not, I would ask you to please not continue to speak about that which you cannot know.

  242. SlayerNina,

    Dude I know you love sansa, but it might be time you accept that she is a pun, she is never going to become the badass you want her to be. It is a difficult and cruel word, especially for women in this story, so I don’t understand why you keep complaining soo much. Not every person in fiction or real life gains strength from oppression and abuse to become badass, actually a lot of people who have been victims remain victims, it’s sad but true.

  243. SlayerNina,

    It occurs to me that Sansa can lie and say she consummated her marriage to Tyrion, thus nullifying the marriage to Ramsay… turning Ramsay and Littleprick into a kidnapper and rapist, respectively. I have no idea why that would matter and what the marriage laws are in Westeros.

    Just a thought.

  244. Nadia,

    How do you know it is before the battle. Is it confirmed? And even if it is it is also very possible that Sansa comes with Jon because she wants to show both to Ramsay and LF that she is not afraid. Do you remember what she said to Myranda in that bath scene? Do you think that Sansa after meeting her brothers and having helped to reunite the North would not feel as having enough power to confront a beast and a schemer? Well then we are talking about different Sansas. You do no know if Kit and Sophie have or have not filmed together. You have no proof to provide us about Sansa and LF being together except a scene and you keep shouting about the plausibility of your theory… Keep it on!

  245. Oh dear, firstly I did not say anything was confirmed, I said that TV shows and films shoot scenes in different orders to what they are shown to us, for instant some actors on Game of Thrones have said their first day was something else to what their first on screen scene was, and I don’t think I’ll be commenting on here again, some people seem angry, speculating makes me more excited for the show but don’t allow me to take up anymore of your time.

  246. dothrakian raven,

    And you have no proof that Sansa goes alllll the way to the Wall in snow and winter with Ramsey behind her… with just Brienne and Pod? Ok, they haven’t been spotted filming together either.

    So you have no proof that Sansa actually does go to the Wall, except for a mention in Season 5? They’re only together at the battle, in that Sophie Turner was spotted filming. It doesn’t mean she’s with him before that. And there is proof she’s filmed with Littlefinger.

    It seems if there’s someone with no evidence or basing their thoughts on PURE speculation it’s you.

    Nothing is “proven” at this point. But it seems really strange given LF’s presence – and the fact that Sansa’s storyline with him is OBVIOUSLY not over – that you aren’t willing to think that maybe she’s not running straight to Jon at the beginning of the season? Especially since no one knows when or how Jon Snow is resurrected on the show, and if it even makes sense for Sansa to be there.

  247. Anon:
    SlayerNina,

    It occurs to me that Sansa can lie and say she consummated her marriage to Tyrion, thus nullifying the marriage to Ramsay… turning Ramsay and Littleprick into a kidnapper and rapist, respectively.I have no idea why that would matter and what the marriage laws are in Westeros.

    Just a thought.

    Then, it means Tyrion is the Lord of WF now. Not a good sign anyway.

    But in last season Roose didn’t care if she was virgin or not and took her claim, and there weren’t any northern lord to fight against it or refusing it. If they took the book’s style, maybe they can go on “the gods are more important than men, she’s still married to Ramsay”.

    She can be desinherited by both marriages, no matter which one.

  248. I have to admit the little finger inclusion surprises me. I wonder if littlefingers role has been based a little on Lord Stanley. He switched sides several times during the wars of the roses. He switched sides in the battle of bosworth, when he realised Henry had the upper hand, and that turned the war in Henry’s favour and Richard III was killed. It seems very plausible that he could do the same thing here. Backing Ramsay but then changing allegiances during the battle to back Jon and sansa. Stanley was implicated in the deaths of the princes in the tower and married Henry VII mother. All very “littlefingerish” behaviour!

  249. Nadia:
    dothrakian raven,

    What proof? There’s no proof for either except for speculation on what makes sense.

    You’re wrong about filming spoilers. People are obsessed with tracking Kit’s movements, and you think if there was any information about Kit and Sophie filming together it WOULDN’T leak? Case in point – when Sue confirmed Sansa would be at the battle and everyone flipped the f out because it meant Sansa and Jon would be on the battlefield together. So, if there were other instances, you bet people would be obsessed with tracking it down.

    What we do know is that Sansa and LF have another scene together in Winterfell, at a time when Kit was nowhere near.

    Can you explain to me on what planet Jon Snow would take Sansa into Winterfell before a battle? And why on earth would he bring Littlefinger with him if it was totally up to him or he was on his own?

    It seems very clear that Sansa is with Littlefinger – comes to the battlefield with him or before that even.

    Firstly, there’s been no news of Kit filming with Liam, Houten, Tormund’s actor or Edd’s actor. You telling me he has no scenes with these people?

    Secondly, we only know Sophie was seen filming there and that LF’s trailer was spotted, do you honestly believe just those 2 would be seen filming together in WF? No Boltons? It’s likely them sharing some scene together in the finale alone on the walls maybe.

    Thirdly, Sansa will know LF is at WF, she won’t trust LF with Jon and she’ll want to face Ramsay likely.

    Lastly, Aiden wasn’t seen on the battlefield while Sophie and kit were and why the hell would she go with LF over her brother?

    And in any case, she’s meant to have some sort of amazing arc. Her being LF’s pawn and doing nothing is shit. She’s going to CB and from there she will help Jon rally the North.

  250. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Sansa was certainly sexually abused. However, I don’t know what sort of sex she expected to have with the son of her mother’s murderer. She knew it wasn’t going to be tender, loving sex – surely. Maybe she thought it would be perfunctory sex?

    I can’t tell if Sansa was swayed by Little-prick’s speech about revenge, or if she knew she was cornered, understood that Little-prick was dangerous and would not be denied. Indeed, he wasn’t asking her to marry Ramsay; he was TELLING her to!

  251. Greenjones,

    Well that’s what I was trying to say with the “apparently”. sorry for my bad translation! English is not my first language not even my second…

  252. Lord of Bones,

    Her sister became a FM after… four scenes? Why she can and Sansa not? Her character is not developed at all since season 1. She can be literally replaced with a chair and it didn’t matter. Wait, she developed from an even more spoiled insufferable passive bitch brat (comparing to the books) to just passive and crying on season 2.

    Sansa’s not a badass, she’s not the awesome queen, she’s not but they need to her character something. Seriously, something. Anything other than stand leaving others doing stuff or doing monologues. Doing something for herself, instead of doing something to help Jon.

  253. kit_hepburn: My suspicion is that Roose is either dead or wherever Walder Frey is (at the Twins maybe).

    Maybe he decided that he didn’t want to risk the life of his and Walda’s unborn child by staying anywhere near Ramsay, and he took Walda to the Twins for safety and for her to be with her family. Let’s hope.

  254. Way I clan see this happening: during mid/end of battle between Notherners, White Walkers show up and the remaining people into Winterfell. Then a Wight giant shows up.

  255. Shane:
    Bearded Onion,

    Your last line about Sansa helping Jon rally the north made me think Jon and Sansa will be like Catelyn and Robb, and that’s something sweet.

    When, not if, Arya reunites with them in S7 I expect Arya-Jon-Sansa to be like a dragonless Aegon and his sisters team. Or maybe Bran can fill in the super weapon part. 😉

    I honestly can’t wait for S6 & S7.

  256. Bearded Onion,

    Me either, the Stark’s have been through hell and back and seeing them finally taking ground and not being push overs would be the greatest thing, also avenging Robb and Catelyn’s cause, but it is Game of Thrones…and I’m not sure I can handle anymore pain being brought upon the remaining Stark’s, and Snow.


  257. Angelique,
    Sorry, it probably wasn’t obvious but I was being silly, which I do a lot of. I should have stuck a winking face on it to make it clearer. In another thread HPL hoped for a photo like the one you mentioned but with Gwendoline and David in it, so I did a not very good photoshop with the original and was drawing attention to the fact that if you know what to look for it’s clearly been not-very-expertly altered. Thanks for trying to be helpful, though! 😀

    Thronetender, HotPinkLipstick,
    You are both most welcome! 😀 Pinky, is that Woooo doggies or Wooood oggies? I like the sound of it either way!

  258. Nadia,

    Shhh… it’s OK, it’s OK… we can huddle together in the corner and wonder what’s so *epic* about an arc that involves Sansa running to CB like a scared dove and fighting on Jon’s side from the beginning like a flag/puppet/symbol. Now, being well-placed with Northmen or Valemen around Winterfell on Ramsey’s side and switching allegiances at some point… getting Roose killed in the process…

  259. Anon: I can’t tell if Sansa was swayed by Little-prick’s speech about revenge, or if she knew she was cornered, understood that Little-prick was dangerous and would not be denied. Indeed, he wasn’t asking her to marry Ramsay; he was TELLING her to!

    I’m going to guess it was a combination of both. While Sansa isn’t one of my favorite characters, I certainly don’t think her dumb the way some seem to think her.

  260. SlayerNina: Well, a “strong character” here is the one using vagina skills or the one using weapons… That’s why she recived the “needle” necklace with the DarkSansa dress, acording to the costume designer… I can totally see a scenario in which she shows her badassery hanging Ramsay ¬¬

    Any woman who kills in Game of Thrones is a “badass” in my book, regardless of how they do it. But that’s not even the issue! I’m not making my guess with Sansa’s character development in mind, one way or another. Just speculating that Ramsay will be hanged based on the use of the word “tension,” and that a reason to hang him instead of behead him (as you’d expect from the Starks) could be to give Sansa the honors. Do you think she’d do any better than Theon with decapitation?

  261. Sansa could use Valayrian steel to behead Ramsay, Theon used a small sword while VS is meant to be very light and extremely sharp.

  262. JCDavis: You are one of the saner voices around here!!

    Ok, now that’s a really scary thought! 🙂

    SlayerNina,

    It could be both…she could do something to help herself which also helps Jon…who knows. While it isn’t much, she did something to help herself by taking that corkscrew and getting herself out of that room. Yes, she ran into Miranda, and Theon had to kill her, but that led to the jump, and if she hadn’t taken that corkscrew and freed herself from the room in which she was locked, she may still be locked in there. Also, while Westeros is a fictional world with fictional characters, even in real life, those who are able to face their abusers and find some sort of justice are helped by many…the Police, the ADA, the Judge…so acting completely alone is not the only way one can help themselves.

  263. Maybe it’s a parlay and then the WW come, and everyone outside the gates tries to get in? Sorry if that’s been suggested, didn’t read all 355 responses 🙂

  264. Ok sensible guess at what might be going on if this happens before the fighting. Jon and Sansa have rallied the North to their cause and for some reason decide to try and talk Ramsay into surrendering rather than engaging in a battle which could kill hundreds or even thousands of men needed for the fight against the WWs. Sounds like the sort of thing Jon might do, although who knows what changes to his personality may have occurred since, well, being dead? J and S go to WF and give R an ultimatum, surrender to us before whatever deadline or we’ll attack WF, then leave. R, being the crazy person he is, says get stuffed and

    displays the two figures on crosses we’ve already heard about

    to show his utter defiance of J and S’s terms. Deadline passes, cue massive battle.

    Don’t know where LF fits into this, he might be trying to do some deal with R behind the others’ backs when they show up, part of their negotiating team, had a jet pack malfunction and just landed at R’s feet. I dunno. I just want Ramsay and Littlefinger to go down and go down HARD! And giant stomping action. Don’t know why there’s a giant at the door, don’t care either as long as he’s gonna stomp things 😀

  265. Lyanna_Targaryen:
    You know what I mean. Good triumphs over evil despite the terrible horrible no good very bad odds.

    I think I know what you intended to mean, LT. But the ending of LotR (in the book, not the film), with the scouring of the Shire, Frodo’s lost soul, Samwise’s proliferation, and the sea journey ahead, was the definition of bittersweet. I guess I have a hard time seeing ASoI&F as a “good triumphs over evil” story.

  266. After Ramsay wins the battle he takes longclaw from Jon, he beheads Jon and then drives the sword through Sansa (his nisa nisa) and becomes azor ahai.

  267. Am I the only person who doesn’t want to see Sansa or Jon kill Ramsay?

    I really really really really really (did I mention really?) want it to be Theon. Preferably right after Ramsay calls him Reek and he screams back, stabbing Ramsay all the way, “MY NAME IS THEON GRAYJOY.”

    That would be symmetry.

  268. After Ramsay wins the battle, he takes longclaw for himself, beheads Jon, and drives the sword through Sansa (his nisa nisa) and becomes azor ahai finally ready to battle the whitewalkers having eliminated all threats south of the wall.

  269. Ramsay Bolton:
    After Ramsay wins the battle he takes longclaw from Jon, he beheads Jon and then drives the sword through Sansa (his nisa nisa)and becomes azor ahai.

    Check your emails, I could see D & D hiring you.

  270. Bearded Onion:
    Sansa could use Valayrian steel to behead Ramsay, Theon used a small sword while VS is meant to be very light and extremely sharp.

    Sharpness helps in cutting things, but when you are chopping something wider than the blade the resistance comes from the thick of the blade having to separate what the edge has cut (I keep my Shun knives crazy sharp; still have to put bodyweight into chopping butternut squash). Lightness makes a sword easier to wield, but also limits the force of the blow; one still has to be very strong to move a light blade fast enough to make up for the heft of a heavier blade.

    But I don’t think strength is the issue; it’s skill. It takes a lot of practice to swing a sword with accuracy and to have the edge strike at the right angle. Theon’s problem wasn’t his sword, it’s that that was the first time he killed with a sword.

  271. Cameryn,

    No one will kill Ramsay. He’s bae. I really like the character. He will die someday, but I don’t like the idea of any of the “good guys” killing he.

  272. SlayerNina,

    Tyrion as lord of Winterfell might be an improvement over Ramsay, especially since he’s gone missing. I think Ramsay was eager to “put a baby in her”, as they say, to cement his claim, knowing that the marriage alone wouldn’t be enough.

  273. Greenjones:
    Edith,

    Javi only actually said:

    Which sounds more just like his interpretation of Sue’s information rather than a scoop of his own.

    I find it incredibly hard to believe anything this guy says. He just seems inaccurate to me on every front. Didn’t he report that Ellaria was at the ToJ? And he keeps insisting “pinkie” is at the Battle even though no one on this site has confirmed LF/Vale troops at the battle (hell, their banners aren’t even in the pictures we’ve seen)? I don’t know, maybe its just me but I take his reporting with a boulder of salt.

    Side note: has anyone even SEEN Vale troops? Like, have there been sightings of Vale men? Why are we so certain LF brings Vale men with him? Just because that was his plan doesn’t mean it actually happens.

    Hodors Bastard:
    Moon tea, anyone? All this talk of Ramsay’s sperm monster makes me thirsty!

    LMFAO!!! Bravo, Bravo! *Claps hands* Gold fucking star for you!

  274. Such exciting news !
    I’m so Hype for the Northern storyline this year !

    If L7R are only speculating about when that scene occures, then I still guess it’s after the battle and it’s actually Ramsay’s execution. Why not kill him on the Battlefield ?

    I agree with Nadia that Jon would not bring Sansa at the battle while LF totally would. And there has been several proven extras who said Aidan Gillen was indeed on set during the Battle of six armies.
    If it’s not Jon but Sansa , with the Vale army, who wins the battle, I can see her deny the entry into Winterfell to the wildings and a freaking Giant.

  275. ladywolfsbane: Is there ANY spoilers, conformation, picture, or accidental misspoken line that leads us to believe that Sansa is

    AFAIK, there is no confirmation yet as to who is on whose side in the Big Skirmish in the North. So far, there just seems to be very urgent wishful thinking as to what exactly goes down. 😉 As for me, I am still thinking that after the big jump from the walls in Season 5, Sansa is found by Pod/Brienne, and she orders Brienne to take her back to LF. As far as Sansa knows, dearest LF was totally ignorant of how nasty Ramsay is. She would feel safer with LF who rescued her from KL and from Mad Aunt Lysa, than go even further north to something uncertain.

  276. Abyss: Ramsay is a monster, but he is also a skilled warrior and could be of great use.

    According to book canon, Ramsay is a skilled hunter (with the help of a large pack of dogs), but as far as I can recall we get no indication that he’s much of a warrior when his adversary isn’t tied down. He isn’t even physically fit. So to turn him into an unlikely war hero takes his arc seriously off-book, it seems to me.

  277. Lyanna_Targaryen,

    Ah, very cool. I think I misunderstood your original comment. 🙂 I think the ultimate homage that GRRM will direct toward Tolkien, besides many symbolic gestures, is that his story will have a bittersweet ending.

  278. Felt Pelt: In what way could Sansa slay a giant, as prophecy foretold?

    A) crossbow
    B) Littlefinger orders his soldiers to protect/avenge her
    C) Jon does the same
    D) slamming a drawbridge
    E) poison
    F) cutting remarks

    Or, if it’s Wun Wun and not some anonymous “bad” giant, they could go for a cheesy “‘Twas beauty killed the beast” twist, a la King Kong falling for Fay Wray or Grawp for Hermione in the Potter books.

  279. Firannion,

    He’s described in the books as a competent but unrefined fighter, never formally taught but aggressive enough to make up for it. So he’s not legendary or anything, but could probably hold his own in a battle.

  280. Nadia:
    JON WOULD NOT TAKE SANSA WITH HIM TO RAMSEY IN WINTERFELL.

    He would if the writers want her in that scene (that was how she got to Winterfell in Season 5 too).

  281. Kay,

    I don’t know what *epic* thing Sansa will do. But we should be able to predict with some additional spoilers that she is

    for some reason separated from Theon. Theon is then maybe reunited with his sister (because this is TV and characters need other characters to talk to in a visual medium).

    Who does Sansa get paired with next? If she DOESN’T go to CB and become a pretty northern puppet/ prop to Jon Snow’s arc.. which I think is very pointless…

    I dunno, do Sansa and Theon make it to “Manderly”, does she grab Rickon, rally the North and steal Davos’s storyline? Does she find Littlefinger, and do a shortened Davos storyline, all the while playing Littlefinger, because she’s going to turn on Ramsey later (and LF won’t know/understand why?) Does she just get recaptured, after sending Theon to redeem himself by rallying Manderly for her? Does Sansa meet Melisandre? Where the hell is Melisandre going to be anyway?

    *epic* is NOT just running to CB. Even running to CB, telling Jon about his brothers and bringing the wildlings down upon Winterfell isn’t epic. Jon doesn’t need more characters up there to interact with anyway – in fact he may have too many as it is.

    This is season 5 all over again… need to put a bell on that girl….

  282. I think putting too much emphasis on what the actors say is probably asking for disappointment, since they’re trying to promote the show and we have no idea what their idea of ‘epic’ is and if it correlates with each person’s own ideas.

  283. Maybe they crept in through the crypts of Winterfell for a surprise attack before/during the battle?

  284. Firannion,

    Of course he is a skilled warrior. Even Roose Bolton admits that (in the books, for that matter), even though he doesn’t like him.

    Ramsay is ferocious, I will grant you, but he swings that sword like a butcher hacking meat.

    Now does he have finesse as a fighter? No, not really, but he is a smart tactician, pretty fearless and skilled at different arms.
    And that’s from the books. In the show we see him fighting the Iron born and sent them runnig, successfully hi-jack the camp of Stannis and meating and beating the rest of Stannis’ army on the battlefield. Ramsay definitively knows how to fight.

  285. Sean C.,

    Eh given how adamant you were in discounting anything that brought up LF or the Vale before or during this battle, I’m going to go ahead and point out that you might want to consider the possibility that you’re wrong, since you are.

  286. I think the only way the characters within Winterfell would need to fight off a giant breaking down the gate after the battle is if the White Walkers have arrived and raised the dead armies. If this were so and the gate does open, it seems incredibly unlikely that anyone inside the castle could survive if the wights gain entrance; they would simply be overwhelmed.

    It seems more likely that this scene happens before the big battle, and could very well lead directly into it. Why would Ramsay and his army leave the relative safety of Winterfell to go out and fight the northern armies? He did so against Stannis but they were fatigued and hindered by his 20 good men, whereas it’s likely the Northerners will not suffer these same losses. Perhaps the sides agree to meet before the battle, and under the flag of truce Jon, Littlefinger, and Sansa enter Winterfell with some men, possibly to include Tormund, Davos, Edd, Melisandre (or anyone else that could be nearby). Discussions don’t go well and fighting ensues, with some of those characters being captured. The main characters among those – namely Jon, Sansa, and Littlefinger – are rescued by Wun Wun and flee out to the army. Ramsay, in his wrath and not realizing the true strength of the Northern army, sets his army after them, and places two of Jon’s fellow counsellors upon the crosses as they march out. Then the battle takes off from there, with Ramsay’s forces being on the offense against the Northerners who need to rally quickly under Jon and Sansa’s leadership.

    Alternate: If Littlefinger arrives to Winterfell earlier in the season to find Sansa and she is not there, the same could still happen. First, we see Littlefinger out of his element for a short while as his plans did not go as expected and Roose and Ramsay won’t be happy. When the negotiations come, however, he sees Sansa, and in the giant’s distraction, could either ride out with the Vale forces behind Ramsay (either on his side or to betray him on the field) or could very well remain in a now-empty Winterfell with everyone else fighting outside, only to find the gates closed and a new self-proclaimed Warden of the North.

  287. There was discussion a while back regarding where and how Jon gets his Stark amor. This answers that question. Definitely before the battle.

  288. Nadia,

    Where was I “adamant” about that? There simply has not been any hard evidence placing the Valemen at the battle to date, and we’ve heard a decent amount about it at this point. I never said it was impossible, merely that we hadn’t gotten any indications as such. Littlefinger’s whole plot has been one of the bigger question marks this season, due to how little information we have about it.

  289. Oh wow, sounds interesting

    So many theories, eg who holds Winterfell, whose side is LF nominally on (probably playing both either way), is Sansa there as a captive or no?

    Is this before or after Snowbowl

    Personally I’m willing to bet before

  290. watcher in the brothel: something tells me littlefinger will choose the right side, betray the boltons and possibly deliver ramsay to jon/sansa.

    I can see Littlefinger stabbing Ramsay in the back when he sees which way the wind is blowing. Always a good improvisor.

  291. Firannion,

    If he’s got the Valemen with him (and he should), Littlefinger should easily outnumber either side in this battle. But if the show is adhering at all to its prior characterization the Vale’s forces, they should be expecting to join the Starks, so he shouldn’t really have much option to choose sides (and anyway, he want Sansa for his own).

  292. Sean C.: He would if the writers want her in that scene (that was how she got to Winterfell in Season 5 too).

    LOL this is it in a nutshell. If it’s necessary for them to do to condense and move the story along, so be it. However we howl won’t matter. I just can’t believe we have to wait 5 more months to see even the beginning of the story.

  293. I wonder if GRRM has Jon, Sansa, Ramsay, and Littlefinger in the same scene…who gets the POV in that scenario?

  294. ::peeks into thread after being away for hours:: ? I see there’s been some lively discussion. The optimist in me wants to believe Sansa enters WF with Jon. The pessimist in me is preparing myself for the possibility that she is once again Littlefinger’s pawn and she goes to WF with him.

    On a slightly different note, just thinking of Jon Snow back in Winterfell gives me all kinds of feels. Along with him donning the Stark armor, this news has got me fangirling all over the place. If the Stark/Winterfell theme is playing as he re-enters his family home, I may just pass out with joy.

    I just had another thought: where the hell is Ghost during this parlay?

  295. I would also add, Sansa going to LF perhaps helps (in ways we don’t understand) dovetail with some of the book plot. They’ve gone off the books for her Season 4 story, but if all that time GRRM is having her spend with LF is relevant – and she still is with him – and they have to get somewhere together for another round of developments, it makes the most sense to bring them back together.

    I doubt Sansa’s story is tied up with Jon’s so immediately in the books. I think there’s almost no way she runs to a reanimated Jon Snow at the Wall and have him have a Stark reunion when he comes back to life. Now, D&D don’t have to stick to the books, but if Sansa’s future storyline is connected more to LF than to Jon – even if she fights on the same side as Jon in this battle – it makes sense that she goes back with him in some ways.

    After all, even if the North wins this battle, I don’t think Sansa and Jon are staying together.

  296. Beremir: could very well remain in a now-empty Winterfell with everyone else fighting outside, only to find the gates closed and a new self-proclaimed Warden of the North

    Hmmm, just picking up on this possibility for fun and carrying out a thought process, how familiar is he with the layout of Winterfell and the crypts? I know Littlefinger appeared mysteriously behind Sansa in the Winterfell Crypts in the episode where they discussed Lyanna and Rhaegar, which shows he has some knowledge of the layout of the crypts. But would he have any further knowledge of all the secret passages, like the ones Maester Luwin mentioned to Theon when he was trying to convince Theon to escape and go join the NW?

    I don’t really think this is going to happen, not even LF is that audacious. Just thinking it out.

  297. Sansa, as a character, needs to shit or get off the pot. Seriously. Enough with “who will save/rescue/take in/enable/do the bidding of….” her.

    Sansa needs to save herself, or she may as well be killed off and give more time to other storylines. She doesn’t necessarily need to kill people (maybe), doesn’t necessarily need to instantaneously develop weaponry skills, doesn’t need to suddenly become a master manipulator or badass conniving bitch.

    She just needs to rescue herself. Keeping the corkscrew after picking the lock would have been a start. Does she need help? Of course. But she has to then stop being helpless, and be part of her own direction.

    Both GRRM and D&D need to provide a reason that Sansa has been given more of a main character status besides being a hostage or token bride or fluttery tummy, or give it up.

  298. BunBunStark,

    I’d like to think that if Sansa goes back to LF, she’s not just going to be his pawn, as much as I wish she was done with him. But she’s not. Still, I think it won’t be the same relationship as before. Or maybe LF will think it is, but I think Sansa will be wiser to it.

    I want the Stark reunion with all my heart, but I don’t think Sansa and Jon are going to STAY reunited.

  299. RhymesWithWeak:
    I wonder if GRRM has Jon, Sansa, Ramsay, and Littlefinger in the same scene…who gets the POV in that scenario?

    Maybe none of them. Bran will be observing the “parley” from the ancient tree nearby.

    Actually, you bring up a great point. As more and more characters interact in larger groups, who will be the PoV for those meetings?

    I am really looking forward to Brienne I…or Jaime I…or Mother Mercy I…in TWoW!
  300. Anon:
    SlayerNina,

    It occurs to me that Sansa can lie and say she consummated her marriage to Tyrion, thus nullifying the marriage to Ramsay… turning Ramsay and Littleprick into a kidnapper and rapist, respectively.I have no idea why that would matter and what the marriage laws are in Westeros.

    Ramsay doesn’t need Sansa to lie about Tyrion to be “turned into a rapist.” He’s just a rapist, period.

  301. Telperion,

    Within the legal code of the time, he wouldn’t be a rapist if she was his wife, strictly speaking. But I don’t really see the point — Jon (or whoever) doesn’t lack for reasons to kill Ramsay, so Sansa lying about that doesn’t gain her anything, and it would mean she’s stuck married to Tyrion, whereas if Ramsay gets killed she’s a widow as far as everybody is concerned.

  302. My guess: Episode 10. They are there to accept Ramsey’s surrender after Boltgaryenbowl. But he still holds a card or two (what, I don’t know).

    However, the people Ramsey flayed on the crosses are Tormund and Davos. Wun Wun saw this before the battle. So when he catches sight of Ramsey, he decides Ramsey can’t live. In the chaos, Littlefinger dies at Wun Wun’s hand and Ramsey will escape, dragging Sansa along with him to the Dreadfort.

  303. Joseph Nobles,

    Not bad. I agree with you prediction in everything but the Ramsay kidnapping Sansa part. I don’t see her (again!) as a helpless hostage. Not at this point. In fact, I see Wun Wun killin Ramsay and Littlefinger escaping, without Sansa.

  304. How about when Wun Wun attacks, Ramsay grabs LF’s dagger and shoves it in Sansa before Jon can kill him. Sansa dies in Jon’s arms. Sad music plays.

    I can make this a dead Sansa in every scenario 😉

  305. Abyss:
    Firannion,

    Of course he is a skilled warrior. Even Roose Bolton admits that (in the books, for that matter), even though he doesn’t like him.

    Now does he have finesse as a fighter? No, not really, but he is a smart tactician, pretty fearless and skilled at different arms.
    And that’s from the books. In the show we see him fighting the Iron born and sent them runnig, successfully hi-jack the camp of Stannis and meating and beating the rest of Stannis’ army on the battlefield. Ramsay definitively knows how to fight.

    One good thing about having a psychopath in a battle is that they don’t feel much in the way of fear or anxiety. But that’s a whole different story than bravery.

  306. Joseph Nobles,

    I like it, except I’d change the last bit to Wun Wun stomps on and squishes Ramsay (not the slow, painful death he deserves, but satisfying, at least to me. Moreover, I just wanna see Wun Wun stomp and squish some more.), and Sansa kills LF, and that’s her giant.

  307. Pigeon:
    Sansa, as a character, needs to shit or get off the pot. Seriously. Enough with “who will save/rescue/take in/enable/do the bidding of….” her.

    Sansa needs to save herself, or she may as well be killed off and give more time to other storylines. She doesn’t necessarily need to kill people (maybe), doesn’t necessarily need to instantaneously develop weaponry skills, doesn’t need to suddenly become a master manipulator or badass conniving bitch.

    She just needs to rescue herself. Keeping the corkscrew after picking the lock would have been a start. Does she need help? Of course. But she has to then stop being helpless, and be part of her own direction.

    Both GRRM and D&D need to provide a reason that Sansa has been given more of a main character status besides being a hostage or token bride or fluttery tummy, or give it up.

    This. All of this.

    I need for them to start explaining what her overall POINT is in this entire series. What is her contribution to the narrative? If her sole purpose is to be LF’s bitch, then GRRM should have given HIM the POV, not her. At least that way, we’d know wtf he ultimately wants.

    Of all the things I want for Sansa, the MAIN thing….the most IMPORTANT thing I want is for her to be a contributing factor in her own damn storyline. I want her to make decisions for herself because it’s what SHE wants. Every fuckboy and their mothers have used and abused Sansa, and she goes through it all….to what end? For what purpose?? What is her contribution to this story? Get to the point, already! Because if I have to endure 10 more hours of her playing the helpless “damsel in distress” who’s sole purpose is to sit there and look pretty while every fuckboy in Westeros decides what to do with her and her life…I’m going to go insane.

  308. Abyss: he swings that sword like a butcher hacking meat.

    To me “hacking” sounds like Roose is commenting on his lack of skill with a blade. He fights with enthusiasm but without any particular concern with aim or tactics.

  309. GeekFurious,

    No.

    The Starks will not let him off the hook for the sack of Winterfell, and Theon will have his throat slashed and his blood poured out on a heart tree. Probably the one in Winterfell.

    Just my opinion though.

  310. Seems pretty likely to me that this is a negotiation, probably post-battle for the handover of Winterfell.

    But Ramsay being Ramsay (or Sansa being justifiably pissed off) the negotiations will go bad, and Ramsay will attempt some shenanigans.

    Enter giant, the ace in Jon Snu’s sleeve.

  311. I’ve been thinking about possible explanation’s for Wun Wun’s arrival at the gate and wondering if the Wildlings might not have decided immediately to accompany Jon and whatever crew of loyal NW he could organize to head for Winterfell. Maybe Army #1 is just Jon, Edd, a few others plus some Umbers picked up along the way. Then Tormund gets to do a big speech rallying/shaming the Free Folk into following Jon south, and they are not expected when they finally do arrive.

  312. Sean C.:
    Firannion,

    If he’s got the Valemen with him (and he should), Littlefinger should easily outnumber either side in this battle.But if the show is adhering at all to its prior characterization the Vale’s forces, they should be expecting to join the Starks, so he shouldn’t really have much option to choose sides (and anyway, he want Sansa for his own).

    What I’m curious about is if the Vale Lords choose their own way, they’d back Sansa though

  313. If the giant were Wun Wun, why wouldn’t they name him, when they named every other character involved? Somebody may have blown a certain horn, I fear.

    There is NO way the new Starks are going to ally with the Boltons. Roose and Ramsay have betrayed every ally they’ve had, including the old Starks. They don’t bring anything useful to the table against the White Walkers, not that the WWs will show up that far south with 2+ seasons left to go. Wights are immune to flaying.

    The northern lords who lost family at the Red Wedding and who’ve been brutalized by the Boltons since would not accept such an alliance.

  314. RosanaZugey:

    Of all the things I want for Sansa, the MAIN thing….the most IMPORTANT thing I want is for her to be a contributing factor in her own damn storyline. I want her to make decisions for herself because it’s what SHE wants. Every fuckboy and their mothers have used and abused Sansa, and she goes through it all….to what end? For what purpose?? What is her contribution to this story? Get to the point, already! Because if I have to endure 10 more hours of her playing the helpless “damsel in distress” who’s sole purpose is to sit there and look pretty while every fuckboy in Westeros decides what to do with her and her life…I’m going to go insane.

    Maybe that is the point. Some people have shit lives. Sansa is a female born in Westeros, which means she doesn’t make choices or think for herself – just deal with whatever’s been decided for her. That’s what a good, proper lady is supposed to do. And Sansa, despite everything, considers herself a good, proper lady.

    I wouldn’t hold my breath for Sansa to “make decisions for herself”. It’s clear from the beginning how she was raised to think of her place in the world, and I don’t think it will change. Sansa may find ways to survive and find inner strength in that, but nothing more.

  315. GeekFurious:
    Been saying this for years… people keep trying so hard to deny this reality:

    Ramsay will not be killed off by one of the Starks or their allies. He will end up fighting on their side, heroically, and… if he falls, he will fall fighting off hordes of dead like the bravest of warriors. BECAUSE THIS IS NOT LORD OF THE RINGS.

    Really interesting theory, it would certainly be a great way for GRRM to mind-screw everyone

    Normally we get the bad guys take over, good guys flush them out and then take on bad guys etc, but there is a part of me that is curious as to how Roose and Ramsay would deal with the WW’s

    Eg bad guy vs bad guy, this is why for my it would have been great to actually see Locke/Vargo Hoat fight Dirk/Karl Tanner at Crasters Keep

    Btw, I reckon Wun Wun would be getting warged by Bran quite frequently so he is probably warging Wun Wun during this scene as well as the battle scene as well IMO

  316. Flora Linden:
    It’s clear from the beginning how she was raised to think of her place in the world, and I don’t think it will change.

    It has been changing, since the first book. That’s her arc.

  317. Firannion,

    i mean for me anybody who is good at fighting is a skilled warrior. We can debate wether or not that can be said about Ramsay in the books, but he is the son of a high Lord so he probably is. And in the show there is just no question about it.

  318. RosanaZugey: This. All of this.

    I need for them to start explaining what her overall POINT is in this entire series. What is her contribution to the narrative? If her sole purpose is to be LF’s bitch, then GRRM should have given HIM the POV, not her. At least that way, we’d know wtf he ultimately wants.

    Of all the things I want for Sansa, the MAIN thing….the most IMPORTANT thing I want is for her to be a contributing factor in her own damn storyline. I want her to make decisions for herself because it’s what SHE wants. Every fuckboy and their mothers have used and abused Sansa, and she goes through it all….to what end? For what purpose?? What is her contribution to this story? Get to the point, already! Because if I have to endure 10 more hours of her playing the helpless “damsel in distress” who’s sole purpose is to sit there and look pretty while every fuckboy in Westeros decides what to do with her and her life…I’m going to go insane.

    There’s a bit of an issue in that the show shor-horned her into the Jeyne Poole which perceptibly “took her back” to Joffrey season 2 but…

    Looking at the very early hints out of the Alayne chapter, she seems to have bottomed, the thing with LF is that she is slowly observing how he works, eg buy low, sell high, hoard and manipulating the Lords declerant etc and supply chains of food etc etc

    Basically how to manipulate and lead, and she has Sweetrobin in the palm of her finger in effect also and it seems she has got Harry the Heir the influential Valesman to warm to her as well so she’s at the turning point

    Take the show detour out of it, IMO she will be a major Riverlands player out of Harrenhall (as in Queen)

    Not really sure what the show is doing but it seems she’ll be a major figure whom the northern Lords and Vale Lords will rally around

    She’s been biding her and laying low time but she is the epitome of a Regal figure, to the point where I actually think she is the “younger and more beautiful Queen” out of Cersei’s prophecy and she has completely slipped through Cersei’s radar while she was focused on Margaery

  319. Sean C.,

    I don’t think she’s changed all that much in how she views herself. Sansa needs to stop thinking within the “good, proper lady” parameters. Hopefully, TWOW and S6 will prove otherwise.

  320. So BS writing if Roose dies a simple son killing father cliched death… I really hate it how everybody talk about Ramsay killing Roose like there is nothing wrong with that if it happens.

  321. Some of this depends on Jon’s status at this point, we haven’t heard of a will, we don’t know if he’s legitimatised etc. If he’s joined the Northern Army, and hasn’t been chosen as KotN/LoF he would in fact be honor bound to Sansa or Rickon (and even with Rickon, if Sansa is there she would be in comtrol till he comes of age). Jon would be in no posistion to order Sansa to do anything, and would have to do as she requests. If Sansa says she wants to be at WF in this scenario, there’s not a damn thing Jon can do about it.

    This isn’t to point out where Sansa is before this scene, just that there a LOT of variables. Jon’s status, Rickon’s location, Sansa’s standing with the Lords. Also, if Jon is in charge in this case, I still struggle with the idea of him ordering her around, this is the person who kept saying it was hers by right after all.

    Another thing is LF. Ramsay cannot be discounted in this of course, but his blind spot has always been Sansa (or moreso her resemblance to Cat) this is the only time we’ve seen him be less than logical. He is not going to be okay with Sansa reuniting with any Starks, let alone one that is supposed to resemble Ned so much (not to mention the fact that LF knows that all it takes is for Jon to be a legitimatised son of Ned to put him above Sansa, and poof all his recent plans are undone, though while I do not think Sansa was a part of his plans in the beginning, I imagine he’s always had things in mind for the North). Also, Jon knows next to nothing about LF, so either way, no matter whose she’s with beforehand (I do not believe Sansa and Jon will be reunited so quickly in TWOW, but they’ve always seemed the most likely to reunite first and the show may possibly be taking shortcuts) the LF/Jon situation will be dicey, and this is more likely where Sansa’s interactions with Jon will lead anyway given that she’s still with LF, LF will possibly even try a similar trick on Jon as the one on Ned, this would more likely be conflict for S7 though, than S6, unless the Stark inheritance line resolves fairly quickly or Sansa undoes LF schemes before he can get that far.. (The fact that LF and Sansa talked about R/L could be setting up that LF actually knows the truth, god knows how, and what exactly he’d do with the info I am even more confused on.)

    – an aside the maid with purple snakes in her hair with venom dripping from their fangs at a feast was DEFINITELY Sansa, not Dany (also Dany is not a maid). The purple venom which comes from snakes was in the hairnet at the wedding feast which was used to kill Joff, no other way around it, and the second part of the prophecy has already some true in a way, she slayed the giant doll in the WF castle and hung the head on the gate, though some believe this to be more foreshadowing and/or a misdirection. The fact that she wore a necklace at the wedding and isn’t a maid is irrelevant, no-one is saying it has or will be quoted in the show, just that it was something that was expected for her character in TWOW (and by association S6 of GoT) and look, here we have Sansa and LF at WF, with a giant ‘banging down the door’ and there’s only one passage that anyone’s going to think of.

  322. Flora Linden: Maybe that is the point. Some people have shit lives. Sansa is a female born in Westeros, which means she doesn’t make choices or think for herself – just deal with whatever’s been decided for her. That’s what a good, proper lady is supposed to do. And Sansa, despite everything, considers herself a good, proper lady.

    I wouldn’t hold my breath for Sansa to “make decisions for herself”. It’s clear from the beginning how she was raised to think of her place in the world, and I don’t think it will change. Sansa may find ways to survive and find inner strength in that, but nothing more.

    I would accept this argument if not for the fact that every other female character on this show has challenged–if not outright defied–those social norms and impacted the story in relevant ways. Why that ‘honor’ is denied to Sansa confuses me.

    Her story can’t simply be one of ‘suffering’ and making some modern-day PC ‘point’ about the oppression of women in male dominated societies. That’s a waste of narrative, especially when you consider that every other female character (i.e. Cersei, Daenerys, Brienne, etc.) has demonstrated that point for the audience. She’s there for a reason. So, tell us (D&D/GRRM)…what’s the reason? What is her contribution beyond playing the role of perpetual victim? The show has made her a main character. Why? Surely it can’t be because D&D just love Sophie Turner that much. The Kid serves a purpose. And I feel like the sooner we get to that purpose, the better.

  323. RosanaZugey,

    I do think she’ll develop and take control, but if she doesn’t I think you answered your own question. If she ends up the only female character to not challenge the norm, it’s not a mysterious exception; it means that that was explicitly her role, to be the female character who demonstrates the norm.

  324. Quick question. There wasn’t an actual giant at the filming. Just a green ball on a stick. Does anyone know if they use the green ball/stick for dragons as well? Just wondering.

  325. Flora Linden:
    Sean C.,

    I don’t think she’s changed all that much in how she views herself. Sansa needs to stop thinking within the “good, proper lady” parameters. Hopefully, TWOW and S6 will prove otherwise.

    Ahh, I do have to disagree on this point. As far back as early ASOS she was saying how she envied and pitied the ‘silly girls’ who indulged in that type of behaviour. And she constantly thinking of herself as dishonourable etc with all the lying she does, but continues on with it anyway. It may not be as obvious as the development of others, but GRRM said himself that he decided to use Sansa as an inversion of the Princess in the Tower trope. I mean, she pulled a knife in ACOK, not exactly ‘lady-like’.
    She’s already pointed out that no-one will ever marry her for love only her claim. It honestly didn’t take very long at all for her to start to break out of the mold she’d been groomed for, she was told that her highest aspiration and the biggest honour she could do her family is to marry well, and to be a good wife.

    Sansa, Jon, Bran and Arya have all at times felt they were dishonoring the family etc. Arya less so, as she takes more after Cat in that regard, and I could see her saying the idea of honour over family was stupid. Sansa, Jon and Bran took the stories of the world even closer to heart, albeit Bran’s were the ‘scary ones’, Bran wanted to homour the family by joining the KG. Sansa and Jon both hold the same ideals and temperament as Ned, they did at least. Jon wanted to honour the family by joining the Watch. They are both disenchanted by their new situations KL/The Wall and express disappointment that things aren’t the way they had been told they were. (Annoyingly people hate Sansa for these things, but not Jon, at least it seems she’s mostly learned from her mistakes, whereas Jon’s political decisions went the way of Ned, depending too much on the good of man etc). For Jon, his priorities became clear when he decided to abandon the Watch, Sansa has made it clear that all she wants now is her family and home and is prepared to make dubious marriage arrangements to do so, Arya revealed her loyalties when she chose to keep Needle. The difference is Bran who chose to go North instead of to Jon (ala Jon going back to the Watch instead of to Robb) which makes me wonder if he’s going to be forced to make a decision in TWOW/S6 in his mystical training like Arya was or/and like Sansa being forced to trust someone as there’s literally no-one else to rely on. ~ ahh the Stark kids and those parallels.

  326. john snow is ressurected……wakes up and realises wtf happened and says to those that killed him….”fuck u cunts….i’m going south and i’m taking my wildling army and i’m gonna make a stand at wf after i take it…u can stay here and be out first line of defence np”…so he leaves
    …and when he gets to wf….he seiges it and ramsay locks it up tight.
    so he gets his giant to knowck down the gate…..hence the …”and then”…..i mean…wtf does the “and then” mean?
    Another scene?…if wun wun was knocking down the gate…or a ww giant….ppl wouldnt be sitting there arguing about it….they’d be like….wtf????…..so mabe the …”and then” meant……there was another scene where wun wun knocked down the wall….but it coulda been b4 the scene of the big “4” in a coutyard…..maby all u ppl didnt realise thatt in filming they can shoot the last scene of everything last…just in case they die…anyway…wun wun knocked down the gate and as jon stark/targareon ransacks the place and takes ramsay prisoner at the exact moment lf and sansa show up….who sansa and reek/theon met on the road trying to run south.
    So thats the argument…..in the courtyard…..join me to fight the ww’s or die
    i think it will be an argument between the siblings…jon stark/targareon will need him to fight…and sansa will want him killed…the other theory was lf has been hiding in the crypts all threw this shit just to be there when it happened


  327. Ghost’s Lunch: There’s a bit of an issue in that the show shor-horned her into the Jeyne Poole which perceptibly “took her back” to Joffrey season 2 but…

    Looking at the very early hints out of the Alayne chapter, she seems to have bottomed, the thing with LF is that she is slowly observing how he works, eg buy low, sell high, hoard and manipulating the Lords declerant etc and supply chains of food etc etc

    Basically how to manipulate and lead, and she has Sweetrobin in the palm of her finger in effect also and it seems she has got Harry the Heir the influential Valesman to warm to her as well so she’s at the turning point

    Take the show detour out of it, IMO she will be a major Riverlands player out of Harrenhall (as in Queen)

    Not really sure what the show is doing but it seems she’ll be a major figure whom the northern Lords and Vale Lords will rally around

    She’s been biding her and laying low time but she is the epitome of a Regal figure, to the point where I actually think she is the “younger and more beautiful Queen” out of Cersei’s prophecy and she has completely slipped through Cersei’s radar while she was focused on Margaery

    I am *almost* one-hundred percent convinced that Sansa IS the fulfillment of Cersei’s prophesy; she IS the “younger more beautiful” woman. And its because I believe that that I grow increasingly frustrated at what appears to be her lack of progress towards that goal (or any other goal, for that matter). If she ends up on the Throne, I don’t want it to be by default; because everyone else conveniently died. I want it to be because she either took meaningful steps to end up on the Throne, or because she demonstrated the capacity to both lead and rule with integrity, intelligence, character, strength and compassion. I feel like all of those elements are there, they just haven’t put it together and made it WORK.

    But maybe I’m completely wrong in my endgame. Perhaps she is not the queen and she’ll never be. And if that’s the case, fine. But at least do her character the JUSTICE of being able to make decisions for herself, regarding her own life, without the manipulation or coercion of anyone else. Every other female character in this show has had that opportunity, and whether they made good decisions or bad decisions they were still afforded their own decisions. Give that to Sansa. Please show, give that to Sansa.

    As a side, I loved her chapter in TWOW. It was a very ‘proactive’ Sansa. Everything you said about it was spot on. That was the first time…in 6 books…that I was actually PROUD of Sansa. And it was the first time (the ONLY time) in 5 seasons that I preferred Sansa’s book narrative to the show’s narrative. I feel like the show regressed her story. They didn’t regress her “character development”, they regressed her storyline (and yes, I do make a distinction between the two). But well, I’m holding out hope that they did that for a reason and that that reason will become self-evident come season 6.

  328. Kilgore Tully:
    RosanaZugey,

    I do think she’ll develop and take control, but if she doesn’t I think you answered your own question. If she ends up the only female character to not challenge the norm, it’s not a mysterious exception; it means that that was explicitly her role, to be the female character who demonstrates the norm.

    Hum. Good point.

  329. jymion:
    if anyone can get what i’m trying to say …can you pls explain it to me???

    You want us to explain your point TO you? Or just comment on your point in general?

    As a general rule, I think every theory is “possible”; though some are much more “plausible” than others. Could everything happen that you suggest? Yes. Although, I’m not certain Sansa/Theon would risk the long trip south if her brother is just a short distance north. It would seem to me that she would go to Castle Black to find a member of her family before she goes south to try and find LF. As to whether or not this meeting takes place before or after the battle…I have no clue. I can see it happening before, as you say, but episode 10 seems logical as well.

    Also, the “and then” part would seem to suggest that the giant thing happens immediately after the meeting. “And then…” is sequential. It means it’s following something. So, I’m pretty sure the meeting would come first, “and then” the giant would attack.

  330. Flora Linden: I wouldn’t hold my breath for Sansa to “make decisions for herself”. It’s clear from the beginning how she was raised to think of her place in the world, and I don’t think it will change. Sansa may find ways to survive and find inner strength in that, but nothing more.

    Except Liam Cunningham has flat out been quoted as saying Sansa has a “great arc” this season. Unless it’s some baffling hype, that doesn’t sound like a character just stuck in neutral.

  331. GeekFurious: BECAUSE THIS IS NOT LORD OF THE RINGS.

    I like the idea of Ramsay joining forces with Jon and Sansa at the last minute to fend off the wights and WWs, but I think that outcome would offend GRRM’s sense of rough justice, where the cripplers get crippled, the mutilators get mutilated, horrible fathers are killed by the sons they abused, horrible women are killed by the men they loved, etc. etc. Where’s the justice in Ramsay dying off fighting a wight or a WW, just as many good Northern men and women will die?

  332. RosanaZugey,

    they could have been doing that scene first during or last involving the giant bashing the gates down….makes more sense he breaks the gates down attacking the boltons to me

  333. We should remember that Javi said that

    no wights or WW show up at the Snowbowl.

    And also take into account Sue’s above comment that she never specified this was a talking scene or a negotiation and that she’d worded this carefully, hence her use of the word “interacting” which could mean quite a few things really. You’ll notice also that she didn’t say that Ramsay helps fend off the giant specifically, just that “people inside” do. I think this is all happening post-Snowbowl and that they are about to execute Ramsay in the courtyard in WF when Wun Wun bursts in for whatever reason (maybe grieving for Tormund, if he dies? I dunno, he seemed very loyal to him in Hardhome). But it must be said that Sue never actually specified that Ramsay helps do anything in the scene; just that he was in the scene… though people assuming that that’s what Sue said seems to have led to most of the confusion I’ve seen in this comment section.

  334. I can’t really make up my mind on this piece of news.

    They went through several contrivances to put Sansa in Winterfell, namely how the Vale – loyal to the Stark cause – had no say or clue to Sansa remaining in LF’s clutches and going off to marry the Boltons for…what reason again?

  335. the ww war is almost at the very end of game of thrones ppl…they cant go any further than that without flogging a dead horse for 10 years
    that war will be in season 8
    its obvious

  336. so my theory is…seasons 6 and 7…are for getting the world together to fight a common enemy
    good versus/evil….in the end what will be left is a question no one will agree on….who were the good guys and who were the bad guys.
    Hence grrm’s “bittersweet” ending

  337. Fez:
    I’m going guess this is an episode 10 thing. Its post-battle, Jon won and captured Ramsay, Sansa met up with Jon earlier in the season and is still with him, and Littlefinger showed up and didn’t attack the Northerners.

    Add bonus speculation, if this is episode 10 maybe the Giant is a White Walker thrall and this is the sign for everyone that the Wall has fallen.

    This sounds pretty close to me! My initial thoughts were the same.

  338. Most logical answer is that this scene precedes Jon and Sansa being burned on crosses during the battle.

  339. Lord of Bones:
    SlayerNina,

    Dude I know you love sansa, but it might be time you accept that she is a pun, she is never going to become the badass you want her to be. It is a difficult and cruel word, especially for women in this story, so I don’t understand why you keep complaining soo much. Not every person in fiction or real life gains strength from oppression and abuse to become badass, actually a lot of people who have been victims remain victims, it’s sad but true.

    Well…IF they’re doing a World History parallel, another famous redhead was abused psychologically (and some people even argue perhaps even sexually) when she was a teenager and then went on to be Queen of England…(Elisabeth the First, during the time she spent as Thomas Seymour’s ward, during the time he was Lord Protector at the beginning of Edward the Sixth’s reign…)

  340. I think the meeting happens before the battle.

    I’m pretty sure we already know Jon has at least one giant with him, so it isn’t a surprise if one is around, but it does seem strange that if it attacks while the meeting is going on. It most certainly will not be a wight.

    My guess has always been that Sansa would be found by Littlefinger and a Vale army. I think Sansa will usurp LF’s control of the Vale sometime after the above meeting and bring the force to Jon’s side. Sweetrobin already sees her as replacement for him mom, it shouldn’t be too hard for her to control him.

  341. I think this could mean the army of Jon/Sansa/LF is winning the battle, there is a siege on Winterfell divided in two armies trying to surround and kill Ramsay, the army of Jon Snow made it first into Winterfell, they are near to kill Ramsay and then the second army led by Wun Wun comes into Winterfell and then Jon and Sansa kill Ramsay.

  342. Vegodread,

    The show never really pays attention to these details. Changes in character looks are meant to reflect changes in their character, they rarely ever really get new clothing on screen. The only examples I can think of are Brienne and Sansa in season 4.

  343. kidds……you would have to be kidding urself if u think all this got hype isnt influencing george even just a little bit…if u ask me…the guy should have finished the whole lot of the books b4 he published the first one….now all he does in roll around basking in his glory instead for sttting down and writing…..hbo is gonna want an end they want and george will have something else in mind…but his book hasnt even started yet…i think the mighty dollar will win out in the end
    such a shame…i guess i’m just as much to blame as anyone else…i want to see more as soon as possible…but i cant force george to write faster…so i’m resigned to the fact what i will see b4 georges books is they way the public wanted it to end….i just hope i live long enough…..and george lives long enough….for me to experience his ending….not an ending that was made to make money….just sayin

  344. there was no secrets until the end of season 5…now its all secrets and guesses…..at one stage during reading his books…which i got as a set….so i read them non stop till i finished…..i stood up and said….”there in no way this story could ever end”….to no one in particular

  345. anyway….on the bright side……now we can all experience reading the books and seeing the show…AND seeing the show then reading the books. i can see the debate raging of for 100’s of years

  346. ” GeekFurious: BECAUSE THIS IS NOT LORD OF THE RINGS. ”

    Martin himself said that his story will ends like LoTR. 😀

    ”I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory.”
    ”All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. ”
    – George R. R. Martin

    It will be a bittersweet happy end.

  347. Anon:
    SlayerNina,

    Tyrion as lord of Winterfell might be an improvement over Ramsay, especially since he’s gone missing.I think Ramsay was eager to “put a baby in her”, as they say, to cement his claim, knowing that the marriage alone wouldn’t be enough.

    Pairing Sansa again because the other options were worst it’s quite… disappointing. If she’s really the expy of Elizabeth I the (not now) Virgin Queen, it’s about time…

  348. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    The cornscreek after five seasons (and after reading the books) sounded even more painful. If she had escaped throught the crypts at least… (she’s able to build a miniWF in the snow but she doesn’t now how to exit from her own house? lol)

  349. ladywolfsbane:
    Sue the Fury,

    Interacting is a lovely choice of words. I’m going back to lurking and licking my wounds… I want what I want to be true too bad right now… been waiting since 2011 when the book stabbing happened – Jon deserved it! Stabby Stabby! Jon is nobody to me until someone supports him other than the Wildlings and a couple Night’s Watchmen…

    You’ve been waiting 5 years to find out what happens next? Yikes I can’t imagine being that patient. Well, I don’t know about book-Jon but I know that show-Jon did not deserve a stabbing to death. G’s woman no man that beautiful deserves to die in their prime, unless they’re evil mofo’s.

  350. I’m trying to avoid spoilers – and to come slightly less frequently to the site – since I was upset by whom I think might be the “loved characters” who were to be bumped off mentioned in an earlier spoiler. “The spirit is willing but the flesh it is weak”* though. I’d like Ramsay to get what he deserves (but GRRM doesn’t always work thus – though Joffrey was dealt with). I appreciate the adaptation is a looser adaptation than when the first few ASOIAF books were being translated from page to screen but an (old) girl can dream about Ramsay being punished.

  351. Bearded Onion,

    Sorry haven’t read all of the other comments yet but could this not be that Jon wins the battle and Ramsay and his remaining men escape back to Winterfell. They surround the castle and try to reason with Ramsay or he has someone captive and he then demands a face to face meeting. I am sure he wouldn’t follow any sort of meeting etiquette and then close the gates behind them to try and kill them all and then Wun Wun smacks down the gate to get to them?????

  352. Ravyn:

    Except Liam Cunningham has flat out been quoted as saying Sansa has a “great arc” this season. Unless it’s some baffling hype, that doesn’t sound like a character just stuck in neutral.

    Well, at the end of S4, beginning of S5 there was hype about a “great arc” for Sansa, and it turned out to be Ramsay. With the exception of her relationship to Theon, the situation in Winterfell was kind of what she went through in King’s Landing.

    I’m not complaining, it’s just I take these “hype” quotes with a grain of salt. Sansa will always be one of my favorite characters regardless of what happens to her.

    Hopefully S6 will be the true turning point. (Although I think Sansa will decide, for whatever reasons, to go back to LF and not go to CB.)

  353. jymion,

    I understood George has written a lot of the next book, it just hasn’t been published so the show quite likely is using a lot of this – they won’t need to wait for publication that’s for sure.

  354. I think this may mean Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell accepting fealty from Ramsey who is now Lord of Dreadfort.

  355. Thronetender,

    I’m just a newbie here (this is my first post), but it’s crystal clear to me that this prophecy is about Sansa. The quote says: “I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. (purple as the “amethysts” in Sansa’s hairnet. IDK how the purple part would apply to Dany’s dragons); also, dragons don’t have “venom dripping from their fangs”, (unless one consider fire as venom? a bit forced IMO), whereas the amethysts were actually poison.
    The second part “And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.” also fits nicely with the scene of Sansa/Robin/snow built Winterfell, almost like if GRRM wanted to reinforce the prophecy. I have no idea if this giant is LF (my bet), Ramsay, an actual giant or just SR and fake Winterfell (would be so disappointing, but still could be just that).
    ps: sorry about the errors in my post, english is not my native language.

  356. ladywolfsbane,

    I frankly cannot understand this conception of Sansa going to CB to become Jons pet. They put Sansas arc at WF for a reason. She is a Stark and has to do two things: 1) to stop being a pet and become a political leader on her own and 2 to reunite the North as she is the legitimate heir of the Stark family. If D&D wanted Sansa to play word games with LF they would have left them at Vale. But they put Sansa at WF. It is a oneway destiny. Going to CB has the logic that she has to start pulling together the dispersed threads of the Stark family whose strongest member at the moment is Jon. With Jons help she will try to find her youngest brothers and possibly with Briennes help Arya. This is what a person who has a touch with his/her roots would have done. Sansa made this clear at her bath scene with Myranda. Jon will help her. So it is not a matter of Sansa being Jons pet. Furthermore we have here a story whose main theme is the the Song of Ice and Fire and inevitably all the characters at some point will be subsumed by this very song. Whatever Sansa, Tyrion, Jaimie, LF, Cersei want to do will be under the auspices of the Song of Ice and Fire. It happens that Jon is one of the two main main characters who is involved with the Songs ice side and that means that even Sansa will have to dance along its tunes. So Jon has a greater perspective of what is going on Sansa doesn’t and I do not see why would it be a problem to see Jon trying to explain this to his own sister and why this will doom Sansas arc. Sansa inevitably will do what she has to do and I am very sure she will play her dirty little game with LF but Sansa becoming more aware of her roots, taking over the political mission to reunite the North and maybe helping her brother to save humanity from the WW is not a bad thing. On the other hand having Sansa playing mind games with LF and the Boltons for the rest of the time is a waste of time.

  357. dothrakian raven,

    D&D said they loved Jeyne’s Poole story, so the only think Sansa was at WF is because they were afraid of use a new character and wanted the rape and Theon’s redemption, nothing else. ¬¬

  358. argent: Jon would be in no posistion to order Sansa to do anything, and would have to do as she requests. If Sansa says she wants to be at WF in this scenario, there’s not a damn thing Jon can do about it.

    That’s not true. Jon and Sansa both know Bran and Rickon are still alive, that makes one of them the Lord of Winterfell, not Sansa. Jon will certainly help Sansa, but not “do as she requests”, she is not in a position of power…

  359. Y. TargStarkian,

    Technically, he let their “historical” enemies, the ones who last month rallied and sacked serveral villages surrounding them to be in the Wall. Now the NW is in a low position surrounded by enemies, watching them eating their food. Also, he disobeyed his vows (again), killed Qorin, let Stannis enter in and doesn’t listen to his men… I think they have a point. Think about the reactions of people about the refugees in Europe (and this people are not soldiers or enemies) for the comparison.

  360. I can’t imagine Sansa would return to Winterfell and breathe the same air as Ramsay. Maybe Ramsay lost the battle, the Starks took their home back and made him captive. Or at least that’s what I want to happen. The giant’s presence confuses me – I like Wun Wun as much as the other fan does, but I can’t place him in the scene. Well, it seems that D&D must be better writers than me 🙂

  361. Lady anti-Jonerys: I’m just a newbie here (this is my first post), but it’s crystal clear to me that this prophecy is about Sansa

    Welcome, Lady. Your English is fine. Since I never finished reading the books and am speculating as a show watcher, I didn’t know about the prophecy, the hair net or Robin’s giant doll that he used to smash Sansa’s snow Winterfell. Once someone was kind enough to tell about the Ghost of High Heart, who originally made the prophecy, I had fun looking her up and reading about the number of prophecies that she made – in the books. It still doesn’t look to me totally that the prophecy is about Sansa, but our speculating is what makes the time until the April show debut go that much faster, right?

  362. Moka: That’s not true. Jon and Sansa both know Bran and Rickon are still alive, that makes one of them the Lord of Winterfell, not Sansa. Jon will certainly help Sansa, but not “do as she requests”, she is not in a position of power…

    If this happens again, it makes me want Sansa to kill Jon…

  363. SlayerNina,

    This is your own conclusion from their statement. I am not aware of this statement in its entirety and I do not want to comment on it. The Jane Poole story was convenient for many reasons. The basic one is that 6 main characters in the show had something to do in s5, regardless of how this something was judged by commentators here. As I said above the Jane Poole story in my opinion was an excuse to cut short Sansas arc in the Vale and bring her back to WF. It seems also that this decision was influenced by events who have a similarity to what happened to Sansa in the S5 show version.

  364. SlayerNina,

    So? You aren’t going to watch the show anyway.
    Why does this bother you? Of course besides the need for attention.

    Why not go too book forums, where you can disscuss/talk about the story you like. With like minded people.

    Let people who are going to watch the show and like this story, talk here.

    This will be like me going too TWD forums and complain about how, in my opinion, the writing has become really bad.
    But that would be ridiculous, as I haven’t watched this season and no longer plan to watch that show.

    I don’t just jump in there, too tell people what a bad opinion I have about the show they like/love.

  365. dothrakian raven: I frankly cannot understand this conception of Sansa going to CB to become Jons pet. They put Sansas arc at WF for a reason. She is a Stark and has to do two things: 1) to stop being a pet and become a political leader on her own and 2 to reunite the North as she is the legitimate heir of the Stark family.

    No, just no. No character “has to” do something. Some characters can get stuck or even die. Look at Renly or Robb, they “had to” win the war and win their respective throne, yet they achieved nothing and died.

    Maybe Sansa will help reunite the North, maybe she’ll kill Ramsay or Littlefinger, or maybe she’ll get flayed or crushed by a giant. Nothing is predetermined. ASOIAF is not a fairytale.

    And frankly, I’m a bit tired by all the Sansa fans and their belief that this character deserves everything and MUST become a master manipulator within two days and HAS TO win the North and HAS TO kill Ramsay (…). No other ASOIAF character has such a boring and whining fandom.

  366. SlayerNina:
    Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    The cornscreek after five seasons (and after reading the books) sounded even more painful. If she had escaped throught the crypts at least… (she’s able to build a miniWF in the snow but she doesn’t now how to exit from her own house? lol)

    Doesn’t mean she knows all the secrets of the crypts, Bran seem to be the explorer of the kids, Sansa ran screaming when Jon came out looking like a ghost.

  367. grailking,

    Agree, Sansa knowing a secret exit would have been ridiculous.

    Also the argument is pointless. I can build a copy of my city, but I have no idea how the sewers look like.

  368. Lady anti-Jonerys,

    Your English was just fine 🙂
    I agree that the in the book the giant will be LF. The castle in the snow scene at the Eyrie actually has LF helping Sansa rebuild the snow Winterfell. A lot of Winterfell built out of snow hints. And it does start with LF stepping over the snow Winterfell in the scene. A few paragraphs later we get Sweetrobin coming in with his doll and claims of a “giant” and smashing things up. To me this means Winterfell goes back to the Starks (not necessarily Sansa right now) and it is LF who ruins it with his scheming placement of Rob Arryn that ruins it.

    The concerns that come to mind are does Jon have enough time to recoup after coming back, WTF is Ramsay doing there ( is this another DD choice to keep fan favs alive despite plot?), if Sansa slays a literal giant I am flinging my tv into the streets, what’s up with Sansa being empowered enough to be savvy to LF plots at the season 4-5 transition but she isn’t “smart” enough to see what is happening to her because of him.

    This looks to be a very bad set up to some poorly conceived fan fiction. Both Dan and Dave do not have good track records with going off cannon with most (all for DB) previous works. Yes, I’m prepared for backlash. That’s ok.

  369. Shy Lady Dragon:
    I can’t imagine Sansa would return to Winterfell and breathe the same air as Ramsay. Maybe Ramsay lost the battle, the Starks took their home back and made him captive. Or at least that’s what I want to happen. The giant’s presence confuses me – I like Wun Wun as much as the other fan does, but I can’t place him in the scene. Well, it seems that D&D must be better writers than me

    WunWun is Phil Simms, Ramsey is the poor Dallas Cowboy(s).

  370. Thronetender: Welcome, Lady. Your English is fine. Since I never finished reading the books and am speculating as a show watcher, I didn’t know about the prophecy, the hair net or Robin’s giant doll that he used to smash Sansa’s snow Winterfell.Once someone was kind enough to tell about the Ghost of High Heart, who originally made the prophecy, I had fun looking her up and reading about the number of prophecies that she made – in the books. It still doesn’t look to me totally that the prophecy is about Sansa, but our speculating is what makes the time until the April show debut go that much faster, right?

    It’s Sansa,the GoHH states she seea that same Maid Again (so unless Arya is taking Sansa’s face ) it’s Sansa the GoHH is talking about.

  371. This looks to be a very bad set up to some poorly conceived fan fiction. Both Dan and Dave do not have good track records with going off cannon

    I guess you’s still crying after “fan fiction” season 5 got the highest ratings ever 😉

  372. Reading the comments and all I can say is OM*uckingG!!

    A story about a possible rehearsal, possibly involving certain characters, who may or may not be in a scene in a certain location together, and cue the torrent of speculation, and people insulting each other over said speculation, demands for certain characters to meet people’s idea of what their arc should be blah blah blah blah …

    Holy shit, some people need to get a life.

  373. jymion,

    What’s is with all the “kids” “people” “it’s a gift” shit? Is it possible that you know how to use capitalization and cease with the childish netspeak when conversing with adults? What, are you twelve?

    You lost my attention by repeatedly responding to yourself, asking RosanaZugey if she was in love with Sansa after she was the only person who took the time to seriously comment to your childish “does anyone know what I’m saying” “look at me” post.

    Geez. Bring something to the table in the form of pleasant debate, please. Oh and use your grown up words.

    Sorry for the detraction from the current debate. I will take the rotten sewage tossing, but some things I have to comment about.

  374. Mihnea:
    dothrakian raven,

    Rockon, and of course Bran but I don’t think he will ever return, is the hair to the North.
    Not Sansa.

    True, they are, but Sansa would most likely be Regent until they come of age, as Jon would be busy trying to save Westros.

  375. Moka,

    Well i am not a big fan of Sansa myself in the terms of how you put it. I am trying to put her arc in a reasonable perspective according to my own (of course) interpretations based on the info we get. I am not saying that there could not be other options for her. She might go to the Iron Islands with Theon and get madly in love with Euron and be his lady, she could go to Casterly Rock and play games with Cersei (in any case she spent more screen time with Cersei than with any other character), she might even go back to KL and seduce Tommen and steal him from Margery. A lot of possibilities available. But whether you want it or not Sansa is a main main character and she has to do things that will somehow be in line with the SOIAF and will influence the arcs of other important characters. In that case the fact that you are bored of her is totally insignificant and meaningless….

  376. RosanaZugey,

    Remember Sansa is really only a girl. She has seen a lot of intrigue, murder, plots and planning, but that’s different than being able to do it yourself. She is a very realistic character! You are expecting her to be something she cannot yet be. And she is being manipulated by the ultimate puppetmaster of the entire continent (LF of course). So if she is the young girl in distress, a pawn to be moved about the board, that is realistic! Just because it would be great to see her kick some ass and get some power doesn’t mean that’s realistic. She is as she should be at this point.

  377. Mihnea,

    Thank you for reminding me but I know who is legitimate heir to WF. But what is legitimate in times of crisis can be very very relative. We all know that during the course of history, or a long story like ASOIAF for that matter, things change and change drastically. My point here is that Sansa will have a bigger role to play for the House Stark in the near future than Rickon.

  378. argent:
    The fact that she wore a necklace at the wedding and isn’t a maid is irrelevant, no-one is saying it has or will be quoted in the show, just that it was something that was expected for her character in TWOW (and by association S6 of GoT) and look, here we have Sansa and LF at WF, with a giant ‘banging down the door’ and there’s only one passage that anyone’s going to think of.

    Are you referring to the less than 10% of show watchers vs book readers that will immediately infer what this is referencing? I don’t think so. I don’t think there has been given any point of reference on the show FOR them to think of this. In fact, being as it was a necklace in the show, why would they think that? Just curious as to what you are referring here? I do think much of what you write is sound. 🙂

  379. Judibatt,

    The truth is we’re not really going to know for the next three seasons what corresponds to “book canon” and what is “show only” until George publishes The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. Heck, we don’t really know this yet for parts of season 5 already…(For all I know, Stannis’ last line in the books really is “go on, do your duty”.) It certainly sounds exactly like what he would say at the end.

    Regardless of whatever George and D&D come up with, people will inevitably fall into one of five camps:

    They either will 1) love it, 2) like it, 3) be indifferent to it, 4) not like it or 5) hate it.

    Such is human nature.

  380. Tootie:
    RosanaZugey,

    Remember Sansa is really only a girl. She has seen a lot of intrigue, murder, plots and planning, but that’s different than being able to do it yourself. She is a very realistic character! You are expecting her to be something she cannot yet be. And she is being manipulated by the ultimate puppetmaster of the entire continent (LF of course). So if she is the young girl in distress, a pawn to be moved about the board, that is realistic! Just because it would be great to see her kick some ass and get some power doesn’t mean that’s realistic. She is as she should be at this point.

    It’s not that she’s a girl, LF been doing things to grown ups for years, it’s Sansa’s age more then anything along with being kept out the loop of some important info she needs to know what he’s done.

    I’m waiting to see if her memory smacks her on what Lysa said in the books and if she has put what Lysa said to her during the moon door incident together.

  381. Not sure if this has been said as lets face it hundreds of outlandish theories was too much to sit through but could it not be as simple as Ramsey seeing all is lost somehow kidnaps Sansa and flees back to WF? Jon and LF see this and give chase with the remaining Boltons locking out the rest of their forces. This leads to the ‘interaction’ of the four cast(and x amount of Boltons surrounding them) as the giant arrives to batter down the gates and the armies flood the castle butchering whats left of the Boltons?

  382. Sansa’s arc. Hmm…what is it? I mean, in the beginning, what did people thing Ned’s arc was? Or Cat’s? Or Robb’s? Or hell, Jaime’s, as he’s the character who has probably undergone the biggest transformation? Just because Sansa’s arc seems to be going somewhere, doesn’t mean it won’t take a massively different turn. That’s what GRRM does a lot of the times. I mean, he loves his tropes, he really does, but he loves breaking them and turning them on their heads and doing the unexpected just as much.

    That’s why I’m not going to be surprised if Sansa is “with” Ramsay at Winterfell when Jon comes calling. It’s plausible that Sansa breaks her ankle or something, and sends Theon on his way. She tells Ramsay that Theon killed Myranda and made her jump. (Or they can even be on the run for a bit before Ramsay finds them.) She willingly goes back to Ramsay because she doesn’t have that much choice.

  383. Greenjones,
    More to the point, how often do they rehearse “talking” scenes as opposed to action scenes that they prepare for weeks (and sometimes months) in advance? I think the “interacting” means Jon and Ramsay are fighting and Sansa is part of the action in some way (as hostage/pawn or something).

    RosanaZugey,
    In regards your comment about not wanting Sansa to end up on the throne by default….. GRRM is a student of history and there are many instances of such a thing happening. Everyone else kills each other off and the only remaining “royal” ends up on the throne (and deservability and capability has nothing to do with it). I would also prefer that this not happen but over time I’ve had a growing suspicion that this will be the case and Sansa will be the last person standing.

    Judibatt,
    Hodors Bastard,
    I always saw the scene where SweetRobin destroyed the snowy WF was just forcasting it’s destruction and never took the “giant” part literally. But maybe S6 will correct that notion.

  384. dothrakian raven,

    No, Sansa is not a “main main character”, she has 3 chapters in book 4 and 0 in book 5. Jon, Tyrion, Dany and Arya are main characters, and even Catelyn has more chapters overall than Sansa. And I’m not “bored” of her character, I’m bored of her fans who claim that she deserves to have everything and to live a fairytale, and who protest when something bad happens to her as if she was some Disney princess “this is not what is supposed to happen!!! She HAS TO win!!”.

  385. winterwasp,

    If it was Ungregor then he would have an army with him. No army from the south has ever invaded the north. ungregor wouldn’t just slip by now.

  386. jymion:
    RosanaZugey,

    are u in love with sansa??

    lol. What a weird way of putting that. *Raises eyebrow* I assure you, I don’t have Sansa posters in my house that I kiss every night before I go to bed, nor do I write her name on my legal pads with hearts around it.

    Sansa is my favorite because she’s the one the majority of this fandom dislikes. She’s the one who is consistently characterized as being insignificant, unimportant, stupid, weak, etc. She’s the one everyone shits on. And out of all the tropes in literature (and LIFE), the one I love the most is the one of the underdog; the narrative that the most insignificant person…the weakest link…the most unlikely of people…could end up being the most important of all. Out of all the characters in this series, Sansa represents that possibility more than any of the other characters and that’s why she’s my favorite. I’m a sucker for ‘potential’. I’m a sucker for the idea that how you start is not how you’ll end, and that even the most insignificant of ‘pawns’ can end up becoming the Queen.

    That’s why Sansa is my favorite and from here until she dies (or series ends), I’ll keep hoping for and believing in her ‘potential’ to end up becoming someone/something AMAZING. I always bet on the underdog. Always.

  387. Moka,

    Nope. And by now we all know that voting requirements changed. You didn’t have to watch the season, show or entire episode to vote for it. Try reading a little backstory about Dan and Dave before you seemingly blindly defend them. It’s not my opinion when they have an easily goggable track record for fiddling things up when they go too off on their own. They said S6 will truly diverge and as a watcher from the beginning I don’t want to see a quality decline because, as they have said, they will shape add plot armor to the characters that are fan favorites. It comes down to a quality vs quantity thing. Or the quote from DB about how it makes sense to them because they wanted to see it happen. I don’t want to see a quality drop. But thanks for the childish “crying” comment.

  388. Me too. I’m tired of all this Sansa discussion. As a character, Arya is very most interesting and important than Sansa, and I only see people talking about one of the most boring characters in the series and show.

  389. Mihnea,
    I know it was a typing error, but “Rockon” has been making me laugh for the last 10 minutes. It might not sound quite so funny to you as you don’t have English as a first language but I now REALLY hope the next time we see Rickon he is dressed up like one of the band Kiss in full leather outfit, with metal studs and make up. And really big heavy metal hair and keeps doing that devil horns sign musicians do and yelling “Rock Ooooooon!!!”. Like this. I am supposed to be doing proper work but have to keep putting my head down to hid the snickering. Any scene with Ramsay in fills me with fear but now rocking Rickon is all I can imagine. Maybe THAT’s what this stand-off/discussion/punch-up/giant using Jon, Sansa, LF and Ramsay as human ten pin bowling thingy is all about! 😀

    EDIT: Sorry I’m not laughing at you at all, it’s just your typo planted a funny vision in my mind 😀

  390. Selina:
    Me too. I’m tired of all this Sansa discussion. As a character, Arya is very most interesting and important than Sansa, and I only see people talking about one of the most boring characters in the series and show.

    See to me, Arya is boring, and not realistic.
    I also tend to like political intrigue over slashing blood lust.

    That’s me.

    I also think SR may sit the throne; with a beautiful ginger speaking in his ears. LOL

  391. Moka,

    Sam and Jon talked about Bran and only him. He doesn’t anything about Rickon’s whereabouts. Just remember that Sam, Gilly and her baby meet Bran, Hodor, Shaggydog/Summer and Reeds in the Nightfort. Rickon and Osha went on the different route to Last Hearth after Bran helped Jon via warging to Shaggydog and Summer.

    argent:
    Some of this depends on Jon’s status at this point, we haven’t heard of a will, we don’t know if he’s legitimatised etc. If he’s joined the Northern Army, and hasn’t been chosen as KotN/LoF he would in fact be honor bound to Sansa or Rickon (and even with Rickon, if Sansa is there she would be in comtrol till he comes of age). Jon would be in no posistion to order Sansa to do anything, and would have to do as she requests. If Sansa says she wants to be at WF in this scenario, there’s not a damn thing Jon can do about it.

    Why they can’t just work together. They’re family and certainly can’t see him giving his family orders or vice versa. They can discuss things and help each other and their family. Sansa will learn about WW from Jon…she might believe him. Jon is more to military side of things and Sansa political as someone else presented it here. Or at least I hope so. Sansa being Jon’s puppet and Jon being Sansa’s. I’m tired of this just like who’s Jon gonna date, Dany vs Jon or Stannis debate.

    SlayerNina,

    Why on earth would you want Sansa to kill him?

    Possible,

    Only Bran is capable to warg into someone like Wun Wun.

  392. Sansa (a character, not a human) was a spoilt little brat whose silly fantasies came to reality as horrors. It would be fulfilling if she realizes this and is able to accomplish something, but the story isn’t broken if that fails to happen. Her arc may simply demonstrate how non-critically enamoring oneself of the system thusly subjects oneself to the system. She may be an example. There are plenty of other characters who come to ignominious ends and the story still chugs along, as compelling as before. The fact that other female characters have strength and control doesn’t mean Sansa must as well. I’m not predicting anything, but I do not at all understand these Sansa beliefs.

  393. Dame Pasty,

    I agree. We can only watch, watch and see. I believe they left out the Petyr stepping over the walls foreshadowing scene on TV. Maybe it was either changed or too obvious when pieced together??? We will see.

  394. Geralt of Rivia,

    Agreed, Sansa and Jon won’t fight, I simply can’t see this happening.
    Sansa taking care of the diplomatic side of things and Jon the military side, is in my opinion, the most likely scenario. Not the only one, and others could easly happen, but it’s the scenario that I think will happen.

  395. I could be wrong, but I don’t think the ‘giant in the snow’ dream was part of the show…..so people are basing a lot of something that they’ve only read. We know how often that works out. 😉

  396. Mihnea:
    Lulus Mum,

    Note to self: Bad grammar is a easy way to make people smile.

    Not bad grammar at all, just a very fortuitous wrong letter. Mmmm I feel another photoshop adventure coming on……… 😀

  397. Selina:
    grailking,

    Sorry, but Arya really has a purpose. Sansa is just a stupid girl.

    No she isn’t, and Arya’s vengeance may have bad outcome for her.
    And just to remind you and others, both Arya and Sansa have done stupid things, both are alone, both love their family and both will have a purpose.

    And this man disagrees with you:

  398. JCDavis:
    jymion,

    What’s is with all the “kids” “people” “it’s a gift” shit?Is it possible that you know how to use capitalization and cease with the childish netspeak when conversing with adults?What, are you twelve?

    You lost my attention by repeatedly responding to yourself, asking RosanaZugey if she was in love with Sansa after she was the only person who took the time to seriously comment to your childish “does anyone know what I’m saying” “look at me” post.

    Geez.Bring something to the table in the form of pleasant debate, please. Oh and use your grown up words.

    Sorry for the detraction from the current debate.I will take the rotten sewage tossing, but some things I have to comment about.

    Thank you, for that defense. I really appreciate it. Because I woke up to that statement, and thought, ‘Wtf?’ Like…was that supposed to be a veiled insult? Good grief. I didn’t even insult that person or get snippy with them. If disagreeing that Sansa will go north instead of south gets me that reaction, I don’t want to think about what they’ll say if I really argue against their ideas. Any who…thank you. I appreciate your chiming in.

  399. HotPinkLipstick,

    If Sansa’s entire story last year just leads to her being immediately recaptured and becoming Ramsay’s sex slave again, that will be the point where it should be clear to all the writers have no idea what to do with the character.

    Sansa may go to Castle Black, or may stumble across Littlefinger somehow, but having her just get caught would be utterly absurd, so I’ll extend the writers the benefit of that doubt.

  400. Mihnea,

    Yeah, not the only option but the most logical one. We clearly saw Jon struggling with political aspect. Sansa purpose to me in the future and even the endgame is political much like Tyrion. Arya is toughest for me to predict and how she will impact the endgame, because she is one of the main characters. Well, one can argue about Tyrion being dragonrider, but that remains to be seen. She must’ve learned valuable things with LF and others.

    In fact … I can see little bit of similarities with Tyrion/Dany and Sansa/Jon. Jon and Dany are more of a leaders, commanders or in Dany’s case successful conqueror.

  401. Geralt of Rivia:
    Mihnea,

    Yeah, not the only option but the most logical one. We clearly saw Jon struggling with political aspect. Sansa purpose to me in the future and even the endgame is political much like Tyrion. Arya is toughest for me to predict and how she will impact the endgame, because she is one of the main characters. Well, one can argue about Tyrion being dragonrider, but that remains to be seen. She must’ve learned valuable things with LF and others. In fact …
    I can see little bit of similarities with Tyrion/Dany and Sansa/Jon. Jon and Dany are more of a leaders, commanders or in Dany’s case successful conqueror.

    I think Sansa and Arya will be the political /vengeance arm of House Stark, Jon and Bran will be busy trying to save Westros.

    I believe Sansa and Arya have to meet, iron out their sibling squabbles and work together for their house and world.

  402. Thronetender,

    Thronetender,

    Oh, yeah, absolutely! Until next season (and next book), speculate is only what we can do.
    And probably this prophecy will not even make it in the show anyway (my main point was that I can’t see how this prophecy would apply to Daenerys).
    Thanks for the welcome. 🙂

  403. Tootie:
    RosanaZugey,

    Remember Sansa is really only a girl. She has seen a lot of intrigue, murder, plots and planning, but that’s different than being able to do it yourself. She is a very realistic character! You are expecting her to be something she cannot yet be. And she is being manipulated by the ultimate puppetmaster of the entire continent (LF of course). So if she is the young girl in distress, a pawn to be moved about the board, that is realistic! Just because it would be great to see her kick some ass and get some power doesn’t mean that’s realistic. She is as she should be at this point.

    I think you’re 100% accurate when it comes to book Sansa. Book Sansa has very much followed a natural and realistic progressive (albeit, slow as hell, but realistic). I think Show Sansa, however, was sped up dramatically in season 4, and then…not…in season 5. I mean, take for example the boat scene between her and LF in season 4 (the “Oathkeeper” episode I believe it was). She was firm when she talked him to, she had already puzzled out that he killed Joffrey, and she knew not to trust him (i.e. “Who could trust you?”) And then, in “The Mountain and the Viper”, they changed her and LF’s entire dynamic by making her the one who saves him (unprompted and everything). They made her suspicious of him at the beginning of season 5 (especially when he receives the letter from the Boltons in episode 1)….but then, by episode 3, she “trusts” him enough to go with his plan of entering into a marriage with a family that killed her own? What happened to, “Who could trust YOU?” Was that realization just forgotten? I don’t know what the hell they’re doing with Sansa. I feel like they move her forward two steps…and then take her back 10 (sometimes, within the same episode). They give me hope…and then take it away…and it’s all just so very exhausting. 😉

  404. Dame Pasty:
    Greenjones,
    More to the point, how often do they rehearse “talking” scenes as opposed to action scenes that they prepare for weeks (and sometimes months) in advance?I think the “interacting” means Jon and Ramsay are fighting and Sansa is part of the action in some way (as hostage/pawn or something).

    Good point about the rehearsal. I can’t imagine either why you would have to rehearse a pure talking scene on set. You’d think the actors learn their lines and then maybe give it a couple of dry runs directly before the shooting, but I don’t get the need to do that days before the actual shooting.

    So it likely doesn’t go down all that peacefully. Maybe Ramsay (and his 20 good men probably) somehow managed to capture Sansa and LF and Jon sneaks in through the secret passages to the crypt, so he can engage Ramsey in battle (if he doesn’t surrender) and buy time for Wun-Wun and the rest of the army to force their way into WF. This might happen before the battle (Jon, Sansa and LF flee, the real battle begins), during (Ramsey captured Sansa and LF, then retreats while the fighting continues, knowing he likely has lost) or after (the battle is otherwise decided, but Ramsey took hostages to negotiate better terms or surrender or just to be a dick one more time).

    Another possibility is if Roose agreed to negotiate (he surrenders WF if he can return to the Dreadfort and go back to the status quo as Stark bannerman), but Ramsey kills him, unbeknownst to Jon, Sansa and LF, who walk right into WF. However, someone can alert Wun-Wun, they can escape and the battle begins. In this case we’d likely have Roose and Walda on the crosses.

    I don’t see what other reason Wun-Wun could have to break through the walls if not to rescue them. Someone said he’s running amok because he saw Tormund on the cross, but I don’t see why J+S+LF would even consider negotiating in this scenario. I doubt it’s a wight giant, I don’t see the resurrection magic working over hundreds of miles (and even if the Wall were to come down in middle of the season, the WW would still have to cover a lot of ground, unlikely to happen in just a couple of episodes).

  405. Grailking,

    Sansa might be an important figure even against WW. I mean if she snatches Vale from LF, Riverlands through her mother’s name and being very influental in the North. Huge political influence. Arya will certainly kill a few significant people and maybe Nymeria and her pack will have a very impotant role in the war against WW. George said something about their importance. It’s possible that they will meet in season 7, because slowly the most important characters will start to interact with each other as we approach the endgame. It all start with Tyrion and Daeny, necxt season Jon and Sansa and so on. With the news about Arya being in Westeros.

    Also I believe GRRM said that there is an unfinished business between Sansa and Arya. Yeah, they will meet at some point. I’m looking forward to Jon/Arya meeting or it will be one of the tragedies and they will never meet !??? No. George can’t be that cruel. 🙁

  406. Quick question. They use a green ball on a stick for filming giants, then CGI in the actual giant. They also use a green ball on a stick when shooting dragon scenes, and then CGI in the dragon. So how would you know if the filming was for a giant, or if it was for a humongous, fully grown dragon? Just wondering if the leak was very clear that it was a giant. Or if it was assumed it must be a giant? Sue?

  407. Young Dragon,

    No, it doesnt, Roose is not Joaquin Phoenix’s dad from Gladiator. He is a monster himself and knows what a monster his son is. Why would you think its in character for him to let Ramsay get close enough to him and just kill him?

  408. Conan Troutman,

    Whether or not they were rehearsing the early part of the scene, they would presumably have to rehearse the part with the giant, since it’s a VFX setpiece. I agree that it could very well mean the preceding part is an action scene as well.

  409. Lisa0527:
    Quick question. They use a green ball on a stick for filming giants, then CGI in the actual giant. They also use a green ball on a stick when shooting dragon scenes, and then CGI in the dragon. So how would you know if the filming was for a giant,or if it was for a humongous, fully grown dragon? Just wondering if the leak was very clear that it was a giant. Or if it was assumed it must be a giant? Sue?

    I think in this case it’s for a giant, if you see the same thing in Spain then you could assume dragons.
    Danny is still on the other side of the pond so is Drogon.

  410. Dame Pasty:

    RosanaZugey,
    In regards your comment about not wanting Sansa to end up on the throne by default…..GRRM is a student of history and there are many instances of such a thing happening. Everyone else kills each other off and the only remaining “royal” ends up on the throne (and deservability and capability has nothing to do with it).I would also prefer that this not happen but over time I’ve had a growing suspicion that this will be the case and Sansa will be the last person standing.

    Oy. I would hope its not by default, but perhaps people are right in saying that I simply hope and expect too much from her character. If she does end up on the Throne by being the last person standing, I’ll at least find comfort in the fact that she’s at least still BREATHING by the end of it. 😉 Oh, and of course…she’s QUEEN, bitches!!!! Bow down, haters. :p

  411. Andy:
    Young Dragon,

    Why would you think its in character for him to let Ramsay get close enough to him and just kill him?

    He already has. Roose has been alone with Ramsay multiple times. If Ramsay wanted to stab Roose in the back, he has had the opportunity to do so.

  412. Judibatt,

    Oh, I wouldn’t be happy if the giant she slays is a literal one, that’s for sure. I don’t think this scene will have anything to do with the prophecy, but who knows? We must wait. 🙂

  413. My biggest concern about this “meeting” is the presence of Little Finger. I don’t trust him. Who knows what he is up to…..

  414. I never thought about this before :
    – We know that Varys and Littlefinger are two masterminds, pulling the strings all over Westeros, and we suspect that their goals will clash someday,
    – We know that Dany and Jon are probably going to clash at some point (since they have the same claim),
    – Varys has joined Dany’s side… And now, we’ve just learnt that Littlefinger plays an unknown role in Jon’s battle for the North.
    -> What if Littlefinger joins Jon’s side?

    What a symmetry it would be! Jon/Littlefinger/Sansa/wildlings/northernmen/direwolves vs Dany/Varys/Tyrion/dothrakis/unsullied/dragons. Ice vs Fire.

  415. Moka,

    Unless Littlefinger knows something about his parentage. I don’t think he gives a damn about Jon. In fact Rickon and Jon presence (if potentially legitimized even more so) could be a big stumbling block for LF plans. They would inherit before her, right? When you put it like it it’s a very interesting symmetry.

  416. Moka,

    No, they don’t have the same claim.

    If Jon is R+L son and they got married then his claim is bigger than Dany. Also is not ice (Jon) and fire (Dany). Jon is both.

    And Littlefinger only have plans for Littlefinger. Remember “He would see this country burn if he could be king of the ashes.”

  417. Grailking: I think in this case it’s for a giant, if you see the same thing in Spain then you could assume dragons.
    Danny is still on the other side of the pond so is Drogon.

    Sue has confirmed that it is a giant, not a dragon or some other CGI stuff at Winterfell.

  418. George,

    Whoa, I didn’t knew about this part of Elizabeth I’s life. But You are right, the situation between Thomas Seymour/Catherine Parr/young Elizabeth kinda have some resemblance with the LF/Lysa Arryn/Sansa plot. I found quite interesting that, according to wikipedia (and I will quote here): “The regency council was sure of her (Elizabeth) complicity with Thomas (who got caught apparently trying to murder the king or something like that), and sought to bully an easy confession from her. She was interrogated relentlessly for weeks. But the council found itself in a sharply defined game of wits with Elizabeth, who proved to be a master of logic, defiance, and shrewdness (the bolded parts are interesting to me, because some fans like to think that Sansa is plain dumb, but We have this interview with GRRM when He states that “Sansa have wits… just like LF”; this statement speaks volumes to me). The embarrassing details of the flirtatious incidents with Thomas came to light. But there was no evidence that Elizabeth had conspired with him.
    Maybe something like this is in Sansa’s future, if LF’s plot against SR’s life go wrong. Or maybe I’m nuts, haha.
    Ps: Sorry for the huge off topic comment.

  419. The reason why Sansa lost her wolf early is she’s not a Stark by nature but a southron Tully, no matter how she tries it’s not in her nature/character to evolve into a Stark. This is why she will continue her slow slide to destruction in the north, life in the Reach or Vale would suit her character, and that’s why GRRM kept her there in the books; she’s not cut out for the ruthlessness of the North and the court of KL but the chivalrous world of the Reach and/or Vale.
    Ramsey on the other hand is a true Northman, he loves the north and hates the other realms, very capable in battle and excellent tactician, but can be overly cocky because of his bravado and fearlessness, one should always have some fear in a fight. His ruthlessness and unforgiving nature can be a necessity on rare occasions, but constantly behaving as such, with his devotion to playful pleasures and coupled with his pleasure of inflicting pain is just plain narcissistic.
    Persons like Ramsey are needed at important moments to change history; Alexander, Caesar and Chengiz for example, therefore Ramsey’s purpose is either to help stop the WW or aid in the demise of Westeros. We will have to wait and read, Sansa though may be a catalyst for Ramsey’s redemption, his attitude early in season six to Myranda’s demise and Sansa’s escape will tell all; if he believes Myranda tried to harm Sansa, being she was armed, and is concerned for Sansa’s safety, albeit with some selfish motivations, it might be signs of sincerity surfacing.

  420. dothrakian raven,
    Lovely! Thanks!

    Unless they need to condense/shorten storylines to the point of stealing Jon’s arc to give to Sansa… I can’t see how she wouldn’t be less of a storyline WITH Jon. The only way I can understand your plotline is if Jon takes forever to resurrect, or he’s dazed and out of commission for a while. Jon at the moment has Davos, Mel, Edd, Wun Wun, Thormund to interact with. He has to resurrect, sort out all those characters, rally the North, and go south before the battle? That’s a LOT to do. Why Can’t Sansa do 1/2 of that independently from him? Why would that arc need to be combined?

  421. So…how about that Cersei Lannister?

    If Tommen turns to the Faith, as the spoilers seem to indicate, even if she wins her trial, will Tommen send her away? Possibly to CR and that’s how we come to see the Rock?
  422. Geralt of Rivia: Unless Littlefinger knows something about his parentage. I don’t think he gives a damn about Jon. In fact Rickon and Jon presence (if potentially legitimized even more so) could be a big stumbling block for LF plans. They would inherit before her, right? When you put it like it it’s a very interesting symmetry.

    LF doesn’t need to know it now or care about Jon, when I say “Jon’s side” it’s in general, the Starks. LF could support them against the Boltons and Lannisters, and when Jon’s parentage is revealed, he has no reason to change side, he would support him so he can have a good position once in Kingslanding (or betray him later).

    Edith: No, they don’t have the same claim.
    If Jon is R+L son and they got married then his claim is bigger than Dany.

    Stop playing with words. You perfectly know what I mean : they both have a claim to the same thing : the Iron Throne (even if Jon’s is stronger). If they have the same claim (or even if Jon only wants the North independence), they will clash, and that was my point. No need to correct me, that doesn’t change what my point was : there will probably be two sides, one for Dany and one for Jon, and Varys joined the first side, so it could make sense if Littlefinger (Varys’s opposite) joins Jon’s side.

  423. JCDavis: Sue has confirmed that it is a giant, not a dragon or some other CGI stuff at Winterfell.

    I know that, I was just answering someone else.

  424. Regardless of how Jon/Sansa meet, they’re not going to stay together from here.

    Their meeting will bring together Starks and be so good to see, but it’s not going to last. Whatever the outcome of battle, whatever Jon does next – go back to Wall, leave to gather more troops to fight the WW – Sansa isn’t going to just march off with him. I still think Sansa’s story is tied to LF, tied to the politics of it, not the fighting of it.

    Regardless of where Jon goes from here, Sansa isn’t going to go with him. They’ll know they’re both alive, perhaps their goals will be the same, but I think Sansa’s story is tied to LF until she can get rid of him. Perhaps she’ll get the Vale behind Jon, or her story will be getting the North allied again, but they’re not running off together anyway.

    No matter what the outcome of the battle or what happens next, I don’t know if Jon and Sansa will meet again, but I don’t think they will, even if they stay in contact throughout.

  425. People seriously doubt Sansa is important and not a main character? Seriously?

    Any character still alive from AGOT IS a main character,

    Top Tier:
    Jon
    Dany

    Extermely Important Tier:
    Bran
    Sansa
    Arya
    Tyrion

    Everyone else is ranked from important down to insignificant, Sansa whether you guys like to believe it or not has some VERY important role to play and she’s yet to fulfill it. Unless you believe both GRRM AND D&D are extremely awful writers who decide to put tons of attention on this girl who will seemingly undergo no character development and have no important impact on the story, lmao. Also Sansa WAS meant to have a chapter in ADWD but it was cut for TWOW, also going by the logic that Sansa isn’t important because she had no ADWD chapters, then Jon, Tyrion and Dany are not main characters as they had 0 chapters in AFFC.

    If you tell a story about a fat depressed garbage truck man who stays a fat depressed garbage truck man at the end with no meaningful impact on the narrative or character development, you told one shitty story, and despite the problems with ADWD/AFFC/S5, this isn’t a shitty story, no chance. In Liam Cunningham we trust. Go Sansa. 🙂

  426. MiaMoon: Are you serious? Why would you want her to kill Jon?

    For me, Jon is the most generic character, not only in ASOIAF’s, but in fantasy-sci/fi in general. That’s why I don’t feel attached at this character. To me, his death meaning nothing at all (I love his wolf, the Wall’s rules and the characters surrounding him, though). Just a matter of taste.

  427. Bearded Onion,

    You have to include Jaime and Cersei, both of whom (with little brother) are above the other Stark brood save Arya. If in the end Sansa is standing and the incest twins are two-seasons-dead, then it changes… but that’s a change to what’s happened as yet.

  428. Lulus Mum,

    And now your funny vision is causing me to post my second video in this thread (I should have more self-control, I know).

    Rickon’s/Rockon’s theme song: 🙂

  429. tyjon,

    I agree that she started that way, she wanted to be a southern lady like her mom but as the story progress we see how she starts embracing her northern roots. There’s a chapter in the book she does something very similar to Ned, when she opens the window and let the cold in. She doesn’t shiver like her mother did, instead she embraces and feels stronger because of it. Even in the religion, she starts as a follower of the seven but then we see her changing to the Weirwoods like the rest of the Starks kids.

    So for me (and is only my opinion) she is a true Stark.

    Moka,

    I wasn’t trying to correct you (sorry if you feel that way) I was just saying that I don’t think is going to be ice(Jon) vs fire(Dany) because Jon

    is both

    I think instead that is going to be ice (white walkers) vs fire (Dany/dragons). This is just my opinion nothing else
    Sorry for my bad English

  430. Nadia:
    Regardless of how Jon/Sansa meet, they’re not going to stay together from here.

    Their meeting will bring together Starks and be so good to see, but it’s not going to last. Whatever the outcome of battle, whatever Jon does next – go back to Wall, leave to gather more troops to fight the WW – Sansa isn’t going to just march off with him. I still think Sansa’s story is tied to LF, tied to the politics of it, not the fighting of it.

    Regardless of where Jon goes from here, Sansa isn’t going to go with him. They’ll know they’re both alive, perhaps their goals will be the same, but I think Sansa’s story is tied to LF until she can get rid of him. Perhaps she’ll get the Vale behind Jon, or her story will be getting the North allied again, but they’re not running off together anyway.

    No matter what the outcome of the battle or what happens next, I don’t know if Jon and Sansa will meet again, but I don’t think they will, even if they stay in contact throughout.

    No way, once the Starks begin to merge they’ll stick together like wonderglue, the whole Stark saying is that they are a pack, a family who works together and looks after each other. Once Sansa and Jon meet, they’ll work together to achieve whatever goal they set out to do. Sansa knows the politics of the South way better than Jon and she has family ties to the Riverlands while Jon doesn’t. And each Stark seeks family above all else, they seriously miss each other and need each other. Besides, Jon will know the entirety of the North is pretty much fucked and will work together with Sansa to begin some kind of Northern Exodus towards the South.

    In any case, LF’s role in this story is fast approaching it’s end. The Game of Thrones arc is almost over and the Winds of Winter is about to begin. LF’s scheming around Sansa and his scheming in general is getting seriously overdone at this point and it won’t last past the 2nd half of S7. Sansa’s story won’t be scheming for selfish power, it will be scheming to make her family more powerful and will be to further it’s goals as a whole.

  431. Off-Topic Otto:
    Bearded Onion,

    You have to include Jaime and Cersei, both of whom (with little brother) are above the other Stark brood save Arya. If in the end Sansa is standing and the incest twins are two-seasons-dead, then it changes… but that’s a change to what’s happened as yet.

    Haha, I’ll say Arya is certainly below the Incest Twins currently too, Jaime and Cersei are currently more important to the story than the Stark brood but they won’t be once they unite and the incest Twins kill themselves in KL.

  432. RosanaZugey,

    The inconsistent characterization… Jaime and Bri suffered of this, too XD

    Moka: No, just no. No character “has to” do something. Some characters can get stuck or even die. Look at Renly or Robb, they “had to” win the war and win their respective throne, yet they achieved nothing and died.

    Maybe Sansa will help reunite the North, maybe she’ll kill Ramsay or Littlefinger, or maybe she’ll get flayed or crushed by a giant. Nothing is predetermined. ASOIAF is not a fairytale.

    And frankly, I’m a bit tired by all the Sansa fans and their belief that this character deserves everything and MUST become a master manipulator within two days and HAS TO win the North and HAS TO kill Ramsay (…). No other ASOIAF character has such a boring and whining fandom.

    If she creates such debate about her behaviour or future, it’s not a boring character and we need more of them. I suppose it’s the side effect of being one of the few realistic characters and being part of a family cursed with awesomeness.

    Brandon, the fucker + warrior of Westeros.
    Benjen, the one who took the black.
    Lyanna, the Helen of Troy who also kicked ass.
    Ned, the cool lord with cool sword.
    Catelyn, the politician resurrected into vengeanful zombie.
    Robb, the fucking King in the North, followed somehow because northern lords like their fingers eaten by a wolf.
    Jon, the uncomprehended hero

    and Azor Ahai destined to be King, marry Dany, ride a dragon and so on

    Arya, the sassy tomboy who is better warg than Bran (she wargs a direwolf on another continent), she has her aunt’s beauty, she has an army of direwolf waiting for her and the FM temple let her doing whatever she wants just because.
    Bran, the greater green sighter ever existed.

    Then you have Sansa, only over Rickon just because Rickon is the most plain character and plot driver created. It’s logical to expect some kind of cool end for her, given all the prophecies about LF’s downfall, how she has been treated all this time and how she was involved in the GOT since the beginning.

  433. Bearded Onion:

    In any case, LF’s role in this story is fast approaching it’s end. The Game of Thrones arc is almost over and the Winds of Winter is about to begin. LF’s scheming around Sansa and his scheming in general is getting seriously overdone at this point and it won’t last past the 2nd half of S7. Sansa’s story won’t be scheming for selfish power, it will be scheming to make her family more powerful and will be to further it’s goals as a whole.

    Actually, I don’t know why (book and show) he wasn’t killed already. He has no army, no alliances, no people’s loyalty and he’s despised by everyone… I suppose we need the chaos.

  434. grailking: See to me, Arya is boring, and not realistic.
    I also tend to like political intrigue over slashing blood lust.

    Shhh! Don’t say out loud, something like “I don’t like Arya/Tyrion/Dany/Jon/Robb/Ned” is gonna kill you!

  435. Edith: I wasn’t trying to correct you (sorry if you feel that way) I was just saying that I don’t think is going to be ice(Jon) vs fire(Dany) because Jon
    is both

    I think instead that is going to be ice (white walkers) vs fire (Dany/dragons). This is just my opinion nothing else

    Ok, no problem. I agree with you about Jon, in his blood he is both ice and fire, but in terms of politics and “real world” issues, he’s only ice. All his life he’s been in the North, with northerners, he was sent to the Wall, he was Lord Commander, he dealt with the White Walkers, wildlings and the cold of Winter… there’s nothing “fire” about his story (except Mel). That’s why I think there will be a clash between the “team ice” (Jon and his family/allies, all connected to the ice element) and the “team fire” (Dan and allies, all connecter to fire).

  436. Sansa as a character is leaps and bounds more interesting than Arya.
    Arya is tailor made to be a fan fave, but Sansa is a real, flawed, character

  437. RosanaZugey,

    I’m feeling your pain in regards to Sansa, believe me. I hope she grows and doesn’t become Queen by default. But worse case scenario, like you said, at least she’s breathing. And I root for her for exactly the same reason…I love underdogs. Always have, always will.

  438. HelloThere,

    Whereas Arya is just uncomplicatedly a-okay. Completely fine in the head and well-adjusted. Yes, many people love her while missing the point of her character (when she kills Polliver and Meryn, you’re supposed to feel an uncomfortable mix of triumph and horror, not just cheer), but that doesn’t mean she isn’t a complex character.

    I love Sansa, mind you. No need to pit them against each other.

  439. Honestly, I find Arya’s story really boring. The Faceless Man stuff, the training, all that is way too dull to even be shown on tv.

    Sansa in the North is exciting to me.

    But I disagree that Jon and Sansa are going to stay together. that isn’t what this story is, the union of the Starks. I think Jon and Sansa have very different roles to play. Sansa isn’t going to march off to war with Jon’s armies. She’s not a Wildling woman, nor can they risk that. She’ll be somewhere getting the politics and resources for Jon, but not in the midst of the fighting like he is.

  440. Bearded Onion:
    People seriously doubt Sansa is important and not a main character? Seriously?

    Any character still alive from AGOT IS a main character,

    Top Tier:
    Jon
    Dany

    Extermely Important Tier:
    Bran
    Sansa
    Arya
    Tyrion

    You’ve got some stuff wrong there. Tyrion has 49 POV chapters, that’s 18 more than Daeny and 7 more than Jon. He’s GRRM’s fav and he’s an overarching character. So Tyrion is the top tier. Jon and Daeny are below him.

    Then come Arya, Sansa and Bran, the Jaime/Brienne story, with Cersei as a supporting character in that, and then Sam and Theon.

  441. SlayerNina: Shhh! Don’t say out loud, something like “I don’t like Arya/Tyrion/Dany/Jon/Robb/Ned” is gonna kill you!

    I like the Starks, all of them, I just put Sansa,Ned,and Jon ahead of Arya.
    I liked Tyrion but they made him to much into a Saint in the show.
    I also like LF character, I hope so much for his demise.

    :@)

  442. geno,

    This has been explained repeatedly. Read a thread before commenting.
    Giants are not entirely CGI, first of all. They are actors inside suits.

    Also, when they have giants in a scene, they have a long stick on set with a ball on top, to represent where the giant is, and to help the actors know where to look. The people in the scene know when they are interacting with a giant, and certainly everyone on the set knows what the scene is about. There are storyboards and animations of a scene. The scene was rehearsed within the last few days. It’s all pretty straightforward.

  443. Nadia,

    But where? to the riverlands? how? she will need an army for that and that would be the opposite of what Jon needs. The same with the Valle, if the army is going north, then why would she need to go back there? is the army that is needed and after seeing a giant I don’t think is going to be very hard to believe there is something else behind the Wall. Also I think you are forgetting that Sansa is still wanted for kingslayer.

  444. geno:
    Well how did they see a giant, on set? that thing is cgi. it all sounds like BS, to me.

    Not so. There is an actor named Ian Whyte who is over 7′ tall and plays the part of Wun Wun…they do use prosthetic’s to Even make him taller than he really is and shoot the scene separately from the actual scene we see on screen. But it is not a CGI character.

  445. JCDavis,

    Yeah, when I’m actually posting that means it’s worn out its welcome. But things are going to continue to slow down as filming does… so you might be in for months of vitriol.

  446. JCDavis:
    We need a new thread to reply to….some people are getting downright grumpy.??

    So true. I set it up to get notified if someone posted. I did NOT want to chime in today.

  447. SlayerNina,

    Every character in ASoIaF is generic if you really start breaking them down. Daenerys the golden child. Cersei the evil witch. Bran the wizard . Tyrion the witty castaway. Arya the spunky tomboy. Brienne the female warrior. Arianne, the seductress. Jamie, the idiot blonde (sorry) the misunderstood bully. And yes, Jon, the classic, sacrificial hero. Some times people use Jon’s tendency towards good deeds to minimize him as a character which shows me that many don’t understand that being decent is way more arduous than being bad.

  448. Another new topic, Gods of Egypt looks to suck harder than 47 Ronin, and that is some serious suck.

    Oh, Nikolaj, so so hot, yet agrees to make just shit films. *cough*The Other Woman*cough*

  449. Off-Topic Otto,

    It’s going to be interesting, to say the least, to see how things go during the season. We’ve always had the “even though I haven’t seen it, I already know it’s gonna suck, and I hate it” crowd, but unless TWOW is published before season 6, and we’ve already gotten a hint of this in season 5, there’s probably going to me a new or larger crowd of “it’s bad fan-fiction…D&D are destroying a, b, and c,” even though we won’t know whether what happens is a departure from the yet-to-be-published story, or part of the yet-to-be-published story.

  450. Young Dragon,

    But he is always keeping an eye on him. He betrayed his own liege lord, he doesn’t let Little Finger go unchecked and Little Finger is a much much more sneaky, two faced fella than Ramsay is, I mean you really think Roose doesn’t know how mentally unstable Ramsay is? A traitor cant be betrayed easily unless with some really cool trick, Ramsay shouldn’t be able to just kill Roose and take over, that wouldn’t make sense.

  451. Waxfoot,

    I’m on board with this but think the giant will perhaps interrupt an execution and Ramsey escapes in the confusion to continue being a giant pain in the ass…

  452. HotPinkLipstick,

    I don’t know… Will it be a movie for the ages? No. Will I go to the cinema and pay the prices there to see it? No. Will I watch it should it ever be on Netflix? Probably, looks like quit a bit of mindless fun.

  453. Any posters from Germany here? Just heard the news from Hannover. Horrible. We’re just hearing bits of rumours here, but sounds like a major tragedy averted.

  454. Abyss,

    Oh, I am totally going to watch it. And giggle the entire time. It’s going to be one of those terrible hilarious to watch movies, not the gouge your eyes out type.

    I like hot guys in skirts.

  455. Luka Nieto:
    HelloThere,

    Whereas Arya is just uncomplicatedly a-okay. Completely fine in the head and well-adjusted. Yes, many people love her while missing the point of her character (when she kills Polliver and Meryn, you’re supposed to feel an uncomfortable mix of triumph and horror, not just cheer), but that doesn’t mean she isn’t a complex character.

    I love Sansa, mind you. No need to pit them against each other.

    Please, we’re not “supposed” to feel anything, other than whatever we like. What a ridiculous thing to say. If we want to cheer, we’ll cheer, if we want to feel horrified, we’ll do so. There’s no interpretation that’s better than any other, regardless of what the author or whoever else intended.

  456. Lisa0527,

    Things arn’t very clear at this point, All I know so far is that the soccer game between Germany and the Netherlands got canceled, because of a “concrete danger”.

  457. Abyss:
    Lisa0527,

    Things arn’t very clear at this point, All I know so far is that the soccer game between Germany and the Netherlands got canceled, because of a “concrete danger”.

    Thanks, I got worried when I read the previous post. I have a lot of family there.

  458. Newbietothegame,

    Aparently it was about explosives in the stadium. It is empty now and they’re searching for the device if there is even one. Let’s hope not, but either way, nobody unqualified will be in the stadium, should they need to deal with something.

  459. Nadia,

    I’m not saying she’s going to war. I’m just saying that I don’t know how can she leave the north and also when they find Rickon he’s going to need a regent and that’s Sansa. Also not everybody is going to war, kids, etc. are gonna stay behind…sort of blackwater

  460. Jamie Z,

    Actually, it isn’t a ridiculous thing to say, at all, at least not imo. While, yes, people will feel whatever they feel, and that cannot be completely controlled, things can be set up in a way to encourage a certain response. That may not be how everyone responds, but authors/writers/directors set things up to illicit particular responses all the time.

  461. Geralt of Rivia: maybe Nymeria and her pack will have a very impotant role in the war against WW. George said something about their importance.

    Maybe the wolf pack will become the camp-follower corpse cleanup crew in the war against the WW/Others. Seems unlikely that wights could be raised from the already-digested, and it would save a lot of manpower (not to mention firewood) that would otherwise have to be expended on rounding up and burning bodies after a battle. The army could move on and the well-fed wolves catch up later.

  462. George: Regardless of whatever George and D&D come up with, people will inevitably fall into one of five camps:

    They either will 1) love it, 2) like it, 3) be indifferent to it, 4) not like it or 5) hate it.

    I expect that the majority will 6) like some of the changes and dislike others.

  463. I think

    Sansa will step up into her role after her escape. Network support for retaking of WF. LF will claim to bring Valle support only to eventually sack WF. Send for Sansa and Jon trying to trap/kill/negotiate. LF may or may not have WF at this time. Giant charges gate possible escape for J and S. Two on crosses is either roose/walda/Ramsay. There is a new Warden in the north. I would hope Ramsay is able to escape with 20 best men to make the retaking of WF all the better. Multi front battle. Ideally Ramsay is killed in battle, bastard show down? LF either keeps WF but jokes on him, no Sansa and WW are coming or gets booted back to Valle and has to spin some stories to his lords and lanisters to keep his game going. Would be cool to get all the remaining Starks back in WF even if WW coming and they have to leave.
  464. SlayerNina:
    Grailking,

    I was jocking XD

    But there’s a part of the fandom who will kill you if you’re not into the Arya/Tyrion, for example XD

    Yeah I know, but it goes all ways, just look at this or any threads on Sansa,Danerys,Stannis,Jon,Bran,Rickon (well not so much,but what it is isn’t good),it’s a beautiful viscous fandom.

  465. Hmmm, they found multiple cell phones, and a father of one of the terrorist met with someone in the US.

  466. Luka Nieto,

    I’m stumped….

    I. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for Jon, Sansa, Littlefinger, and Ramsay to meet in the Winterfell courtyard AFTER the battle. If either side wins, what’s the point of a post-battle parley? If Jon/Sansa/LF had just won it doesn’t make sense for them to be trying to fight the giant (since the giant is likely Jon’s ally). Also, if Jon et al had won, I don’t think they’d delay Ramsay’s execution with an ‘uncomfortable meeting’. If Ramsay/Roose win they’ll likely waste no time in executing everyone but Sansa. There’s the possibility the battle could result in a stalemate, but I don’t see this happening – Jon will probably have the support of the Wildlings and select northern houses, along with Littlefinger’s army from the Vale – it seems to me the Stark/Baelish army would greatly outnumber the Bolton army, making a stalemate improbable.

    II. At the same time, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for it to be a pre-battle parley either – if it IS, then HBO will have turned Jon Snow into an utter fool. Jon is aware of Roose’s role in the Red Wedding (where the sacred protection of guest right was violated), and Sansa will likely inform Jon of what Ramsay has done to her (and to Theon). He knows the Boltons are treacherous and not to be trusted, in any circumstance. Given this knowledge, Jon would have to be a complete ass to have a pre-battle parley WITHIN THE WALLS of Bolton-occupied Winterfell. The only way I could see Jon agreeing to parley is if the Boltons HELD SOMEONE (like Rickon) and demanded the parley…

    Either way it doesn’t make much sense to me….

  467. AryaReady?:
    Luka Nieto,

    if Jon et al had won, I don’t think they’d delay Ramsay’s execution with an ‘uncomfortable meeting’.

    Unless neoJon has undergone a radical personality change after being dead, it would be unlike him to do something as autocratic as summarily executing Ramsay. He would have to feel that such an act was within his sphere of authority. However awful Ramsay might be, it’s not analogous to the execution of Slynt, where Jon was the Lord Commander and a sworn member of the Night’s Watch had blatantly defied his direct order. If Ramsay has enough sense to surrender when the battle turns against him, Jon would be bound by both his sense of honor and the customary rules of war at least to give him some sort of military trubunal. He’s not the kind of man to let such rules slide.

  468. AryaReady?,

    I don’t think Jon trying to parlay with Ramsey before the battle would make him look like a fool. Yes he knows what the Boltons have done. But he is one of the very few characters who also knows about the WW threat. He would know that they can ill afford a battle where likely people would die in hundreds or thousands. So it makes absolute sense that he would first try to avoid this battle.

  469. Sean C.,

    Yes I agree, the only reason I can think for Sansa and Jon to be there with Ramsey, (if its not a post battle execution scene), is if Ramsey is holding Rickon hostage or something like that. I was only saying it makes sense for Jon to first try and avoid this battle

  470. Y. TargStarkian,

    But if Jon was really Brandon’s Son, and if he had a legit claim to inherit Winterfell, I think Ned would never usurp his nephew’s rights, no? We all know how much honorable he was.

  471. Sansa back at Winterfell? Smacks of bad planning. If she was always going to be back at Winterfell then why have her escape?

    The writers of this show are very odd. They’re determined to make unnecessary changes to the story and characterisation, yet equally determined to hit certain ‘iconic’ plot beats / moments, even if they don’t work alongside the changes they’ve made.

  472. Nic:
    Sansa back at Winterfell? Smacks of bad planning. If she was always going to be back at Winterfell then why have her escape?

    Presumably so that she could do other things and return to Winterfell under different circumstances? (I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt that they aren’t just going to make her a damsel in distress again)

  473. Lady anti-Jonerys,

    …Unless it was his beloved sister’s dying wish that nobody ever finds out of their incestual relationship. So, to honor his sister (and brother’s) memory he will keep that fact hidden and thus has to bring up Jon as his own bastard.

  474. fee fi fo fum…

    I really can’t wait until the new season. ‘Mythical’ (or at least long thought extinct, right?) creatures alive and well in Westeros, rolling up on Winterfell in the bright of day…this is the season when ignorance turns into, ‘Oh. Oh no. Oh sh*t.’

  475. grailking,

    I must admit I had to google to find out who Phil Simms is… I’m European, so I don’t know anything about American football, I watch soccer. But hey, it’s a good thing that ASOIAF/GOT made us fans forget about such limitations as two different games called “football”. I wish your favourite team bring you joy!

  476. Y. TargStarkian,

    Oh, ok, since I’m not buying that Brandon/Lyanna theory at all, I thought you are talking about Jon as Ashara/Brandon’s son. My bad, hahaha.
    But I agree that Dany and Jon are not right for each other (romantically, I mean, I have not against they teaming up to save the world or something like that, but somehow I guess they will not be united, not even in that way).