The epic Loot Train Battle (who do we talk to about renaming that? It just doesn’t sound as intimidating as it should) from episode 4, “The Spoils of War,” had Thrones viewers in an agony of conflict — one of the first times in the series when we didn’t know who to root for. And Jerome Flynn, who plays the swaggering sellsword, said in a recent interview with MakingGameOfThrones.com that it was a genius bit of writing.
“How brilliant is that? And that’s Tyrion’s perspective, standing there. He’s got Daenerys when she gets shot down, and then his brother is who’s trying to kill her; Tyrion can’t win, really,” Flynn said. “But that’s part of the brilliance of where we’ve got to in the story after seven years of that character investment.”
However, even if at the start of the battle we didn’t want to watch Bronn meet a fiery end, by the time he shot a scorpion bolt into Drogon, it was clear who a lot of people ended up rooting against.
“Since the day the battle aired, I’ve been a little unpopular, I have to say,” Flynn said. “My postman won’t speak to me because I shot the dragon.”
Mailman malice aside, Flynn said shooting that particular battle scene was one of the most exciting he’s ever been a part of. Filming the battle took place over several weeks, but what he called the “death run” to Qyburn’s scorpion — which was a full-size, fully functional construction that Flynn called “the coolest weapon I’m going to get to play with” — happened over a couple of days and was an unforgettable experience.
“You’ve got all this extraordinary excellence around you — people who have been training for months to get every little piece of their puzzle right; stuntmen, armorers, everyone,” Flynn said. “It’s a whole dance going on. And suddenly you’re set free, and it’s the ultimate boy’s playground with a lot of adrenaline thrown in.”
“I was surprised when I was watching it,” he added. “I spent weeks on that sequence, but I was on the edge of my seat, the adrenaline was running — they really nailed it.”
MakingGameOfThrones.com also offered fans a behind-the-scenes look at the moment when Bronn wound up and fired the menacing weapon, posting a series of storyboards that begin with Bronn aiming at Dany and Drogon and end with Tyrion watching them fall toward the river after being hit. Even in storyboard form, you can feel the sense of dread as the scorpion bolt is drawn backward:
And then there’s the moment in which we all screamed at our televisions…
…and when our hearts plummeted as quickly as Drogon, watched with anguish by Tyrion:
Whew. I just relived that scene all over again and it’s heart-pounding even in illustration. The Flynn interview is available here, while the storyboards can be seen here.
The cinematography and editing in that sequence is unreal. Filmmakers will be studying it and stealing from it for decades.
How does a TV show with a fraction of a budget and filming time pull off this type of exciting spectacle every single time, yet major hollywood productions f*ck it up 9/10 times lol
I really didn’t mind when Drogon got hit since it was full on weapon of mass destruction. People can say “it is war”, but Dany went overkill. WMD vs spears/swords. It is also Dany’s fault for getting Drogon hurt. If she hadn’t been full of bloodlust, Drogon wouldn’t have gotten hurt. I’d say she made her point already but Dany wanted to come back around again to inflict more horrendous damage. Think about it? Would she ever have stopped the annihilation if Drogon didn’t get hurt? Probably not.
Nice interview with Flynn..
This is what I expected. He knows if Jaime dies or is captured, they’ll be no reward from anyone for all his hard work. Based also on the comment about Tyrion, I suspect he’ll turn quite quickly to Tyrion’s side assuming he lives.
How else do you use a dragon in medieval combat? How is she supposed to not “go overkill”?
She actually tried to avoid frying too many people in this battle. She busted a hole in the lines, then primarily fried the wagons in order to prevent retreat/sow confusion, and otherwise attacked things like the siege weapon and archers (which were dangerous to her personally). I also wonder if she was avoiding attacking the commanders (the only people ahorse) specifically because they would be valuable as hostages.
Of course then people complain that she burnt the food and people will starve… *sigh*
She clearly wasn’t “full of bloodlust” but quite the opposite. Drogon was hurt when she was attempting to disable the weapon that could hurt him. Arrow misses, she is shown to look over and see the weapon, then she turns drogon to attack and “Dracarys” when in range.
A better strategy than a head-on attack would be to get Drogon to strafe the weapon, but Dany and Drogon were inventing aerial combat “on the fly” as it were.
HelloThere,
They are forced to use practical effects. It like when you compare LOTR and The Hobbit.
QueenofThrones,
There will be always be people complaining about Dany no matter what she does. 😕
I love how thousands of Dothraki screamers and Lannister soldiers all vanished out of thin air at the end of the battle. I mean, Jaime could have lit up a cigar when he was left undisturbed to witness the action. Had a clean, easy charge at Dany too.
I was pulling for Bronn till he started shooting at Drogon. Then I wanted him to keep missing until Drogon could burn him and the Scorpion.
I love Mad Max Bronn.
Its hard to fully analyze Danys battle strategy on Drogon, because you don’t know what decisions are being made for the sake of the storytelling, versus the sake of delivering great spectacle.
Vanessa,
Remember when it was all about her being a “can do no wrong Mary Sue” 🙂
People complain about her burning the wagons with food because that was one of the primary sources of Dany’s angst when they were talking at Dragonstone. The unsullied would be without food. That’s why people complain. Dany said it herself.
I understand her motives and why she did what she did. However, it was overkill in my opinion and don’t think she would’ve stopped. War is war, but she is all about conquering without understanding the consequences. Explain to me why someone would “choose” her to be queen out of fear? It wouldn’t be out of respect.
Pigeon,
Just need to get Furiosa on board and we’ll be good to go. Everything’s better with Furiosa.
Excellent point!
BranTheBlessed,
Yeah, that was a little weird. I guess we are meant to assume the Lannister/Tarly’s all panicked and ran with the Dothraki pursuing.
Also the Lannister line is stretched over many miles – so it would be pretty tempting just to run to where the rest of the army is as soon as it’s possible. Plausible deniability for desertion charges…
I just have to say that was by far and away the most realistic looking battle I’ve ever seen. At least for a fantasy show. They made Drogon look like he belonged there as a real entity rather than the lazy, cartoonish, unrealistic looking CGI that most movies and shows provide. They really outdid themselves with this one.
There I would agree that she had to go after the weapon that could harm Drogon. My point is if there wasn’t a scorpion to stop her, she would’ve continued until they were all fried alive. Sorry, I’m just not one for napalm dragons. Not something I condone.
Ha! Yes!!!
I think the problem was that the scorpion seems to pivot pretty easily, so she couldn’t really get behind it or to the side. Or maybe I misunderstood?
Similar to when Ygritte died and Jon sat there with her in the middle of chaos!
A bit off topic, but what the heck are the dragons eating now? There’s gotta be like, no sheep left in the entire Seven Kingdoms. Are they eating fish ?
Ha! Yes!!! 😊
I think the problem was that the scorpion seems to pivot pretty easily, so she couldn’t really get behind it or to the side. Or maybe I misunderstood?
Wouldn’t be surprised to see Drogon chowing down on some of the roasted soldiers next episode.
Similar to when Ygritte died and Jon sat there with her in the middle of chaos!
Vanessa,
I wouldn’t complain so much about Dany if it wasn’t “me, me, me” all the time. I just feel this character has been written poorly. It’s hard for me to root for a character who is feels entitled by name. I’d love to see her more humbled and wiser. A bit more like Jon. In real life, do you think a person with a status title is more entitled than the average working person?
Yes but if the choice is to target Lannister soldiers or the wagons, which is more “overkill”? I would hope those who think she is too bloodthirsty would give her props for avoiding killing men – yet you don’t – you’re still saying she is going overkill. I’m just looking for consistency. You can’t have it both ways.
And for the sake of argument, We don’t yet know what she thought was in the wagons. Maybe she thought the wealth of House Tyrell was in those wagons, or a mixture of the money and the food. Maybe we’ll see next episode (or maybe not).
I think the word you’re looking for is “awe”. Often defined to be a mixture of fear and respect. The same thing that caused the 7 k to bend the knee to Aegon and his sisters
Some Westerosi will want to follow her because they know she is powerful and will strike fear into the hearts of any enemies they might have in the future. What she needs to do now is to show (as she has before) that she can temper her power with mercy. Clemency to those who surrender, and rewards to those who bend the knee and join the alliance.
Of course, it won’t work for everyone. Dorne for example did not bend to Aegon.
What I mean is she should have flown by the scorpion and have Drogon turn his head and shoot fire off to the side (a strafe attack). It’s possible to hit a giant dragon flying right at you, but It’s almost impossible to hit a target that is flying by you. Especially if you’re not used to shooting at flying targets.
cuddlycrow,
Nobody ‘stops’ in the middle of a war. You keep going until the enemy (1) are all dead or (2) they throw down their weapons and surrender
Ryan,
Krakens I guess
cuddlycrow,
Why does that mean she is poorly written.
Why do you have to root for her.
I for one am so glad the show is not writing her to be loved, but writing her as the character that she is, which is a complex mixture of compassion/empathy and cruel arrogant entitlement.
She doesn’t need to be like-able or root-able.
Do people think Aegon the Conqueror was a likeable person. He probably was a cruel entitled shit who took the throne by force with dragon fire. Dany lies somewhere between Jon and Aegon,
No “awe” isn’t the word I am looking for since in the trailer she is about “bend the knee” or get fried. That is NOT awe, it is instilling fear. If they didn’t bend the knee, then hold them as prisoners, not roasting them.
HelloThere,
You are right she doesn’t have to be loved or be like anyone else. It would just nice to see her get tamed a little. Maybe Jon can be influence 🙂
What? I’m with Hodor’s Bastard on this one: Bronn is the MVP of the whole freaking show on Sunday! From his Dickon joke to defying all sellsword propaganda when he kept on fighting after losing his gold to single-handedly manning the scorpion to bringing down a freaking dragon to saving Jaime’s life in the face of dragon fire, Bronn puts the “ass” in “badass”!!!! Who couldn’t love him?
Pretty hard to throw down your weapons when you have a WMD and Dothraki coming at you. How do you signal surrender and would Dany get it?
My interpretation is that Dany feels “entitled” to rule not because of her name – but rather because of what she has accomplished. She has literally accomplished a miracle in hatching those dragons – and no one told her how to do that. She then went on to crush centuries of injustice in Essos by obliterating slavery – proving that Fire and Blood can be constructive – not just destructive. She also has prophecy guiding her – both the Dosh Khaleen one (she / Drogon are the stallion that will mount the world – not Rhaego) and the House of the Undying. All of these point to her going to Westeros to fulfill a destiny. It’s much greater than any “name” she might have. The name is useful, but it’s not the major driving force in her actions.
It’s fine not to like “destiny driven” characters – I think that’s really just a personal preference thing. Personally I loathe the “hidden destiny” / “reluctant hero” trope, but I don’t go around talking about how awful Jon is all the time. I think he’s a decent person and complements Daenerys well (though I’m not a shipper).
cuddlycrow,
I don’t think there was anything wise or humble about Jon walking in to Dragonstone, call the ongoing war in the South a ‘children’s squabble’, and demand that Dany help him out in his war because ”I’ve seen them, they’re real and they’ll kill us all”.
Ginevra,
Agree! He had to fire the scorpion because she was coming in again to cause destruction. Bronn definitely MVP.
Actually, it does seem like Aegon was a great strategist and excellent statesmen (meaning, he negotiated more than he fought), with no mention of undue cruelty. His son “Maegor the Cruel” on the other hand…
The Field of Fire and other use of the dragons were meant to demonstrate their power so that enemies would surrender / bend the knee without fighting. Which they did, probably saving many lives.
I’m not sure what you mean by him being “an entitled shit” either. Aegon wasn’t entitled to anything except Dragonstone literally speaking. He was a conquerer. Was Alexander the Great an entitled shit? I don’t know, since I never met him, but I don’t think that’s the historical consensus.
I don’t mind “destiny driven” characters, but Dany is constantly saying she deserves the Iron Throne because her ancestors not by what she has accomplished. Frankly, no one wanted to be conquered by the Targs in the first place, why would they want to be this time around?
It should be called he Spoils of War battle. “Loot Train” brings to mind a Firefly episode.
The Scorpion definitely pivots pretty fluidly, but it would be extremely difficult to get an accurate shot off if you’re shooting while pivoting. I think Drogon (or any dragon) should attack the Scorpion simply by staying behind it no matter where it pivots. Then when close enough, fry the fucker.
Or have multiple dragons attack, all 3 from different directions. It’s a bit more risky this way, but there’s no way any Scorpion could stop that.
Honest question where’s she gonna put thousands of captive Lannister men? I suppose she could take their weapons and just let them go instead.
Anyway – the point of using the dragons is to instill Awe in people that weren’t in the present battle not so much survivors. The field of fire was the last major battle of Aegon’s Conquest for a reason. After that people knew they didn’t want him against them… but as an ally they could share in that power.
She actually does not say this very often.
She points out to Varys this season that Viserys certainly was not entitled to the throne just because of his name.
Mr Derp,
I’m surprised they didn’t make it bigger to be honest with you.
I didn’t think Jon demanded Dany help him out. He was pointing out they were “all” children because there is a bigger threat. How is that demanding? Even when Dany sees the “writing on the wall (cave)” states I’ll help you, but bend the knee. Seriously?
That does make sense to me, but would it bring back memories of the Mad King and not awe? I suspect the former and not the later since pretty much no one knows who she is and the Mad King is still more fresh in people’s mind than Aegon.
I may be in the minority, but, while I didn’t want Bronn OR Drogon to die, if I had to choose one, it would be Drogon.
Dany still has 2 other dragons. There is only one Bronn.
It was a super arrogant thing to say.
(paraphrase) “You should all do what I say because I say it and I’m right because what I feel is right is right and what you think is right is wrong – so there!”
Jon has a history of not explaining his actions to people. He really, really hates doing it. He seems to think that it is somewhat beneath him to have to justify himself, convince people, or generally listen and understand empathetically to the (quite legitimate) concerns of others.
The audience (me, too!) sympathizes wit him because we know that he actually is right (we saw the Night’s King too). But no one else in that room has. And not even Jon knows if the army of the dead will ever cross the wall… We think they will because it wouldn’t be much of a story otherwise, but in universe no character has any reason to think they ever will come south of the wall.
Vanessa,
As there always will be those who complains over that Bronn shot Drogon .
I respectfully disagree. Dany says it often enough to be annoying and why some people tend to really hate her. She points out Viserys should not have received the throne because he was stupid. It still comes down to birthright to her. If not, it wouldn’t matter if she was a Targ or not.
No you’re right, it’s a line Dany has to walk. She has to try to get them to think more about Aegon and less about being at the head of a foreign horde and who her dad was.
She does have the advantage in that the Mad King didn’t have dragons, and he only ever burnt alive like 10 people. No one but Jaime & People he told knows about the Wildfire. If anything Dany burning people en masse might get compared to what Cersei did – that’s even fresher. In which case, Dany comes out ahead since she has only attacked military targets.
cuddlycrow,
QueenofThrones,
This is by far the most rational & civilized Dany argument I’ve read, lol.
Not a super arrogant thing to say in my opinion. It is the truth. Now, could he have couched it differently? Yes. But all he heard is Dany wanting him to “bend the knee” before she would even listen.
I don’t think Jon thinks it is “beneath” him to justify his actions. In many cases, he has justified his actions. He has listened to others concerns or how could the wildlings ever have crossed the wall without being killed by NW? He tried to explain to NW. Remember he got stabbed for justifying his actions?
cuddlycrow,
You could atleast wait until you’ve seen the actual episode before shooting the criticism?
cuddlycrow,
I don’t know, but it looks like there are enemy survivors atleast. Better than BotB, eh?
By the way, you say Dany is entitled, has a bloodlust and is not wise or humble. Surely such a character ought to have flown straight to the Red Keep and wrecked havoc instead of wasting time in Essos freeing slaves and later in Dragonstone?
cuddlycrow,
BigMac,
Haha good! yes it’s been fun… I have to get back to work or I’d continue… cheers…
Yes, that would be a great parallel Cersei’s action vs Dany’s. Excellent point!
cuddlycrow,
Why should she believe the words of a man she doesn’t know and drop her war–the one she’s been wanting to fight her whole life– all of this to head North to face this enemy she has never seen or heard of?
Its weird how you’re able to look at a situation from Jon’s pov but can’t do the same from Dany’s pov.
Yes it has been good fun. Have a great day and wonderful weekend! Cheers to you too!
BigMac,
Me 2 🙂
I love the CGI, but I would find losing Jerome Flynn harder than having the VFX guys stop making the dragon lol
Thank you! Most kind.
I don’t think Dany should’ve just said “yeah’ to Jon and that is the end of it. No, no, no, but it became all about Dany and bending the knee. She didn’t even give him a chance to explain why he was there in the first place which was to mine the dragonglass. It took Tyrion to explain it to her. He requested she join his side but did not demand it. The dragonglass was his mission with hopes she would join the fight.
Between Jerome’s postman, and the people who can’t separate Joffrey or Ramsay from Jack Gleeson and Iwain Rhoen, and the hate Sophie Turner gets and the fact that Joanna Robinson tried to get the kid who played Olly killed, it’s clear to me that this show can’t end soon enough.
Fans are going to get someone killed.
Agree!
WorfWWorfington,
It’s all the same to the Many Faced God.
Luckily, I can distinguish the actor from the role they play. Jack and Iwan are terrific actors and hope they don’t get typed cast because of their roles. Even Hollywood does it, unfortunately. You make a good point about fans getting a character killed. It’s just fun to talk about it.
As for Dany, I think she’s always going to be straddling the line between righteous and madness.
She knows what her father was. But she may very well end up with the man who killed him as a prisoner and it’s hard to guess what she’ll do with him. And what she’ll do to Tyrion if he tries to stop her.
Many rightly pointed out that Jon told her what Mance told him and she told Jon what he told Mance. But what happened to Mance next? What if Jon follows the same path?
And then the fires are lit and Jon steps out of them, naked and bald and be like “Oh, it’s ON!” and there you have Ice and Fire.
QueenofThrones,
Sure, one can be in awe of the power of dragons that just torched your fellow comrades to ash, but let’s be honest, it’s fear. Now, if she were smart and wanted to show mercy, she’d also give them the option to take the Black rather than either join her which means they must take up arms against their family, friends and neighbors that make up Cersei’s forces (hence the point of Dickon’s conflict of fighting Tyrell men) or die. I imagine Jon might be more willing to give Northern bannermen to her cause who lack that conflict of interest if he were given men to defend the Wall.
If she hadn’t asked Jon his opinion, that is exactly what she would’ve done. Yes, Dany does think she is entitled because of her Targ name. She even states it. I will agree she was wise to listen to Jon though I do think it was overkill. Show the power and back off to seek a surrender from the opposing side.
It was an astonishing technical achievement. Now, I know the GoT and the Emmys have recently been a bit at odds over scheduling, but please tell me Spoils of War is going to be able to be nominated at some point?
This is the best take of this episode. I just want to say that “didn’t they teach you that in fancy lad school” was hilarious as was “did the QoT prick you in the balls one last time.”
cuddlycrow,
I’m sorry but you come across as very biased.
Dany allowed Jon to mine all the dragon glass he needs, she even offered resources and men to help him forge weapons despite being involved in war. Dany also never refused to fight for Jon and the North. That is more than Jon ever did. He flat out refused to help Dany in her war against Cersei, he offers no fealty, he offers absolutely nothing in return.
But Jon is in the right and Dany is the bad one here? Hah!
It was their first meeting, they distrust each other. Both of them were stubborn and proud, verging on arrogance. It takes time to build a relationship.
Fire and Blood can be constructive? Yes it can if you do it right , but i wouldn´t say it was right to do what she did in Meereen , she could shown that shes not is like her enemies , instead she did the same thing as the masters did , thats not constructive thats destructive , Dany dit not even care about that it could be those that not defended the deed of the masters , thanks to this Dany then saw how it is when “Fire and Blood” not is used wisely . Yes she did good things but this was not that wise of Daenerys .
I do not think that there is people that goes around and speak awful about Daenerys all the time either , if i speak awful about Dany its because shes done something that is truly awful , its not because of fun its because she done a thing that not was that wise , thats me though .
Here’s how I’ve written it in my head:
Jon: “We got the dragonglass.”
Dany: “Find any more pictures? I could go down the with you again to help you look”
Jon: “No. We’re good.”
Dany: “Oh… you’re good”
Jon: “Yes, your grace.”
Dany: “FINE!”
Davos: “My king he is. Smart he is not”
Missandei: “Dude. Help a sista out”
Tyrion: “You IDIOT! YOU F—ING IDIOT!”
Dany: “Still won’t bend the knee, eh?”
Jon: “I cannot. Your grace. The North would never allow it. They killed me once…”
Dany: “Wut?”
Davos: “Finally! He tells her!”
Jon: “Yeah, I made an alliance they didn’t like once. They stabbed me in the heart. I got better. Thanks to the freaky Red Woman.”
Dany: “Huh. Wow. Well, are you SURE there are no pictures in the cave? Maybe if I went… down… there first?”
Jon: “No, we’re good”
(Scene of Missandei, Tyrion, Theon, the Ironborn, Varys, Davos and Drogon all slamming their heads into the ground, screaming “IDIOT!”)
Jorah Mormont shows up!
Jorah: “I GOT BETTER!”
Tyrion: “Oh, fuck, now it’s a party. No one touch him”
Jorah: “No, I got better. Samwell Tarly helped me!”
Jon: “WHAT? Sam?”
Dany: “Someone named Sam excites him? This makes more sense now.”
Jorah: “Yes, he picked my scabs and rubbed Neosporin on it. Hey, who is that with my dad’s sword?”
Jon: “You’re Jeor Mormont’s son? He gave this to me after I saved his life. But since your 10-year-old cousin basically talked the North into making me king, I guess we’re even. This sword is by rights yours.”
(Warning… this is where Worf turns serious)
Jorah; “Who are you?”
Jon: “Jon Snow.”
Jorah: “The Bastard of Winterfell…
Davos: “The King in the North”
Jorah: “Your father exiled me. He was going to kill me, but I ran. I dishonored my name and house. If my father gave you that sword, it means you were a truer son than I was. It is yours, Jon Snow. You mentioned a young cousin. Is it Lyanna?”
Jon: “The same. She is quite the She-Bear”
Jorah: : “Khaleesi… I owe a debt to the North. My crime was punishable by death. I ran. My counsel is nothing to you now that we are here in Westeros”
Dany: “Wait, what do you mean? Where are you going?”
Jon: “Samwell Tarly saved you? Why?”
Jorah: “For the memory of my father…”
Jon: “And so it shall be. As King in the North, Warden of Winterfell and the son of Eddard Stark, I pardon you for your crimes, Jorah of House Mormont. Although I wouldn’t count on claiming House Mormont…”
Jorah: “Khaleesi. You need the North, or else Jon Snow wouldn’t be here. Let me go speak with them. They call me Jorah the Andal, but I am of the North. And… I want to see my home again.
Dany: “I have never been able to give you what you truly want, my brave friend. But I can give you this. Go home. Tell them of me. Tell them I am a true friend to all who want to be free. Plus, I want to meet this Lyanna…”
Jon: “Your grace. Um, hey, that thing you were saying earlier? Did that mean you wanted sex? Because I just got that. Yeah, that would be pretty cool.”
Dany: “GET OUT!”
At times the sequence felt less like fantasy and more like a WW2 action movie. Bronn the gunner trying to take out an enemy fighter plane as the pilot circles back to start another strafing run.
The work put into this is just amazing:
Hatching dragons is a magical miracle, it has nothing to do with her ability to rule.
As for Essos, her intentions were mostly noble, but she went about in the wrong way on several occasions. Her use of fire and blood was far from being entirely constructive.
Its called television/dramatic effect.
Also it was the edge of the battlefield where Dany and Drogon had already torched. It was kind of a dead zone if you will.
Grayven Reyne,
GoT certainly will be nominated many times for whatever year this season falls into.
cuddlycrow,
There is no reason to believe that she would’ve burnt the whole Lannister army if Drogon hadn’t gotten hurt given that she specifically avoided burn men when possible. There was a great deal of collateral damage, but her goal clearly wasn’t to burn Lannister soldiers. The only time she actually attacked soldiers was when she made an opening in the line for her Dothraki.
You said it best, G! I’m still reeling over the significance of Bronn’s actions during the scorpion scene. I continually compare it to Blackwater, in which he was fighting for Tyrion. He had the big arrow in that scene as well and shot the devastating blow to Stannis’ forces at the beginning of the battle. Then at the Loot Train Battle (LTB), now fighting for Jaime, he fires the arrow that dealt the only significant blow to Dany (could have been worse) at the end of the battle. Bookends for Bronn.
Meera and Bronn need songs written for them. 🙂
AltShiftX made a similar Bronn Blackwater/LTB comparison in his vid review. Love these aspects of the show.
I’ll give some wiggle room to your statement though even after she made the path clear for Dothraki she didn’t stop and don’t mean just the wagons. Before the scorpion she was about to do another fly by. Let’s see how she is in the next episode though by the trailer, she’s going to do some “burning men” examples to instill fear to bend the knee. I’d like to know what do they get that is better if they bend the knee to her and not “wildfire” Cersei. We the audience know diff, but how will that be explained reasonably. However, that is a trailer and I’ll see what happens. I don’t hold out much hope.
Exactly! I am hoping Jon can get her to be more constructive in her ways. Tyrion has done a good job, but is on her best side at the moment with failed strategic plans.
My frustration with Dany character my come off as bias, but it is mostly with her entitlement attitude because she is a Targ. She never stops asserting her claim to the throne of a country she has never lived in only because an ancestor once ruled. It’s annoying.
Dany only allowed Jon to mine the dragonglass and offered assistance after Tyrion talked some sense into her. You do make a good point about Jon not really returning something in return for her help. Jon really didn’t have a plan B for that which you’d think Davos might have been able to counter. In the cave, the writing is on the wall and Dany is well before I help you save mankind you have to bend the knee. That is totally self-absorbed and manipulative. Same could be said for Mance and Jon convo. Admittedly, a bit of a wildling at heart 🙂
Dany and Jon scenes really wasn’t a bad vs good. They were both stubborn. What makes Dany not so great to me was her WMD attack. She had do to it, but it was overkill and made no sense for her to destroy the food and supplies. She just finished an angry speech about how food and supplies were cut off and needed them. So what does she do? Destroy it.
The Unsullied and Dothraki have sworn to give their lives for the Mother of Dragons, so… 😉
It was a wonderful scene Bronn – Drogon and the pretty little queen , Jerome was brilliant as allways . Dany thought that no one could rub the mighty Drogon but Bronn did , and im not angry on Bronn or Jerome for that , it have only shown that Danys boys not is that mighty as Dany thought .
QueenofThrones,
I think Jon doesn’t explain himself very much because that would be boring to watch. We as the audience heard him talking about the wildling three times that I can recall, it would be annoying to show him giving the same speech every episode. And that’s the same reason he didn’t explain his plans to Sansa and other advisors before saying it in front of everybody, because we would have to watch him giving the same speeches and meeting with the same resistance twice and it would be repetitive. It would be realistic, but wouldn’t work onscreen.
QueenofThrones,
I disagree. She literally says she was born to rule the seven kingdoms, and repeatedly calls it her birthright.
cuddlycrow,
You do make a good point about Jon not really returning something in return for her help….
Not in my view. People need to stop and think about this. Jon is out warning his peers, other people in power, those who have the ability to do something, about a threat to all mankind and hoping they will understand and want to team up . He’s not asking anyone to bend the knee, he’s not asking for a slice of the southern kingdoms, he’s not asking anyone to put their crown down. He’s just saying hey, I was just named King in the north, not that I wanted it but I accepted it because it enables me to be heard, to be more pro active about the threat I have seen, and yeah we’ve got bigger fish to fry here. That’s it. Why should anybody expect anything in return from Jon? He’s already given them something important…a heads up on impending disaster and the willingness to lay down his life in defense of the realm. So I don’t get this mindset.
cuddlycrow,
This is true. YT is full of comments about being sick of her saying this now.
Vanessa,
Yep. As long as there is a forum to talk about this show, you will find some questioning your beloved queen, as well as many other characters. 🙂
Exactly.
You nailed it. Jon isn’t asking for a favor, and he isn’t asking for help with a problem that would only concern him. It isn’t “his” problem, it’s everyone’s problem.
It’s in Dany’s best interest to fight the White Walkers, whether Jon bends the knee or not is irrelevant to that point. Either way, she needs to fight them.
If anything, she’ll have a better chance of getting the North to accept her if she saves them.
She shouldn’t expect something in return for doing something that is in her best interest, and that also happens to be her duty, since she considers herself the “Protector of the Seven Kingdoms”.
She has such a long list of titles, I’m sure she ends up forgetting some of them. Best not forget that one. Protector of the Seven Kingdoms. If that’s what she thinks she is, she ought to act like it.
The war in the South is clearly, compared with the war for humanity, a children’s squabble. Of course that’s a wise thing to say. Cersei and Dany are fighting each other, weakening each other, when the reality is that the Realm needs every single Lannister man, every single Dothraki, every single Unsullied, etc… to fight the White Walkers.
As Dany and Cersei weaken each other, they weaken the Realm’s ability to fight the White Walkers.
Ceasing hostilities and heading North immediately is much more reasonable than continuing to risk thousands of men while the White Walkers keep marching towards the Wall.
Second, your framing is entirely wrong. “Demand that Dany help him out in his war” ??
He wasn’t demanding, he was pleading with her to realize the importance of the war in the North.
And how is it “his” war ? It’s everyone’s war ! The White Walkers are a threat to everyone. You’re acting like this issue only concerns Jon, and he’s asking her for a favor.
The White Walkers aren’t rats in his kitchens that he needs help exterminating, they’re an existential threat to the entirety of humanity.
Jon isn’t asking Dany to help him, he’s asking her to help everyone, including herself. It’s in her best interest to fight the WW.
Jon shouldn’t have to give anything “in return”. He’s not asking her to help with something that doesn’t concern her, he’s asking her to save humanity. Once again, it is also in HER best interest to do so.
And of course he refused to help against Cersei ! Do you really think what’s best for the Realm is for Jon to march South, leaving the North unprotected, so that he can lose thousands of men in a pointless war against Cersei ? How does that make any sense ?
What people have to realize is that Jon isn’t interested in killing living men. Lannisters or not, they’re living, and they’re needed against the dead.
If Jon were to help Dany against Cersei, it would only leave the North more vulnerable and weaken both the Stark and Lannister armies, which would therefore considerably weaken the Realm. Not a smart move, at all.
And to go back to my earlier point, Jon isn’t asking for help with something that doesn’t concern Dany, but she is.
Her fight with Cersei is not his fight. It doesn’t concern him at all, and involving himself in it would be counterproductive. But the fight against the White Walkers DOES concern Dany. It concerns everyone.
As for fealty, receiving that shouldn’t be a prerequisite for saving humanity.
And Jon isn’t demanding fealty from her. He only wants an alliance, not to subjugate her. In other words, he isn’t asking anything of her that would be against her best interest. Realizing that the WW are the priority is in everyone’s best interest.
He isn’t asking her to make a concession, or to give anything up.
Dany on the other hand is asking several concessions of Jon that aren’t in his best interest.
So while he’s proposing they fight on equal footing against a common enemy, she’s proposing he fight as her subject in a futile war.
That’s the difference.
Lol true , they would do what the pretty little dragon queen commands.
ygritte,
Markus Stark,
You completely failed to grasp the point I was making. Once again your views are based on the fact that you are aware of the whole story. I’ve mentioned this time and again, Dany does not have this benefit. Just try looking at the situation from her pov.
As far as Dany( and Tyrion and the rest) is concerned, Cersei is the biggest threat to the realm. Her letter to Jon mentioned as much. Does Jon believe or give a shit about that opinion? Nope. But you expect Dany and co to accept Jon’s opinion straight away?
Its funny, there’s a scene where you get kind of a role reversal. You remember Sansa and Jon discussing Cersei’s letter? Jon waves away the threat, Sansa gets frustrated at that, mentions Jon doesn’t truly understand the magnitude of the threat Cersei poses.
Markus Stark,
Markus Stark,
Some of your reasoning above have serious flaws.
1) Dany already has her foot set deep in one war. Her armies are divided and scattered through Westeros, surrounded by enemies. You think Cersei and Euron are just gonna sit by and allow safe passage of Dany’s armies back to Dragonstone?
2) Even if Dany retreats and heads over to the North, you think Cersei will leave them be? She’ll continue to hunt them down. What happens then? Jon and Dany sandwiched between the army of the dead from North and team Cersei from South.
3) You talk about a few thousand men that’ll die in Dany and Cersei’s war. What about the thousands that’ll add to Dany’s forces if she beats Cersei and unites the South?
Only a realm united in cause can stand a chance against the Night’s King. And for the realm to unite, Cersei has to die, Dany has to take charge and then some arrangement( you know the marriage is on the horizon) made to band together Dany and Jon.
Well written
I totally agree with you. I was willing to understand the pov of the poster and what Dany’s view would be is why it was a “good point”. Thus, my problem with Dany not able to see anything beyond her birthright and narrow focus of what is happening in Westeros is so annoying. Makes her an unlikable character presently.
You are correct. What keeps coming to my mind is Tywin Lannister “If you have to tell people you’re a king, then you’re not”. Dany constantly has to list what she thinks she is and, at this point, she is not.
I do think Cersei does pose a threat. People forget that she has her own WMD in wildfire and can’t see her have much restraint. There is suppose to be more located throughout Kings Landing and not just what was at the Sept. Wildfire, dragon fire, ice zombies…could get seriously ugly.
Agree, Jerome/Bronn was exceptional. I think it was one of the top scenes for Nikolaj. If you have a heart, you could feel Jamie’s pain of watching his men burned alive and helpless to do anything. All without any words. It is possible that scene showed the dragons are vulnerable and maybe, foreshadowing?
Agree , you could truly see Jaimes frustration , hes soldiers buring and he can´t do a thing to that dragon , so he did the little he could ordered Bronn to the ballista and ride down Daenerys , why didn´t he throw that spear instead of riding close to a wounded dragon , wouldn´t that been so much wiser then what he now did ?
SnowWolf,
That was not a spear, it was a lance. It wouldn’t have the accuracy if he threw it. Plus it was tucked under his left armpit, so he would have to be very precise because we know he still struggles with his left hand.
When I saw Jamie riding down Dany/Drogon, got the feeling his pain and rage got to the point he didn’t want anyone else to die by fire. I’d say he didn’t throw it, in addition to other comments, because it was a “mad king” moment for him.
Ok , then it make sense why he did as he did , no it wouldn´t but you do not throw a Lance either , i wrote the throwing part because i thought it was a spear , becasue as swords spear can look different from spear to spear . Jaime wasn´t far though from Daenerys , if not Drogon turned so he saw Jaime , this would have ended for Daenerys.
Yeah i totally agree hes only thought was to ride down Daenerys which i think Jaime had done if not Drogon turned around . Yeah of course how could i be so stupid , he saw that when Daenerys stood there so alone .
Can I get some love for my man Qyburn? He designed a weapon which could take down a dragon, and made it mobile, versatile, and capable of being operated by a single man — even if that one man is a true badass. That’s some serious Leonardo da Vinci level stuff, that is.
(One of my favorite little scenes this season was Qyburn introducing Cersei to the Scorpion. Qyburn’s narration goes on about how a dragon was wounded in Meereen, and I thought he was going to show her a potion made from dragon’s blood, or some such thing. Instead, he produces a big f’n crossbow.)
You are not stupid at all! So many interpretations of the same event. Right, wrong, or indifferent…it is all good 🙂
Thanks my friend , but of course it was clear that Jaime saw that when a Targaryen stod there alone with her back turned at Jaime , and with all this fire around them .
In hindsight does anyone think the awayforthelads leaker got his/her hands on the storyboards given how the leaks were framed, I’m starting to think so. Please D&D much tighter security of these for the final six episodes!