Volume I of George R.R Martin’s history of House Targaryen may be released in 2018

ADWD

Oh, Targaryen fans, are you in luck! George R.R. Martin hopped onto his Not A Blog earlier today to announce, among other things, that his history of House Targaryen, Fire and Blood is going to be split into two volumes for length.

“We have so much material that it’s been decided to publish the book in two volumes,” Martin wrote, by way of explanation. Volume I is expected to be released in late 2018 or early 2019 and will cover Targaryen history from Aegon’s Conquest through the regency of Aegon III. More specifically – and excitingly – it will include an in-depth account of the Dance of the Dragons, expanding upon the material touched upon in Martin’s other short stories, “The Princess and the Queen” and “The Rogue Prince.”

The second volume will continue the history from Aegon III all the way up to Robert’s Rebellion. It has no release date and Martin suspects its publication is still years away.

Speaking of, ahem, no released date … Martin still isn’t sure when The Winds of Winter will be published:

“I am still working on it,” Martin wrote. “I am still months away (how many? good question), I still have good days and bad days, and that’s all I care to say. Whether Winds or the first volume of Fire and Blood will be the first to hit the bookstores is hard to say at this juncture, but I do think you will have a Westeros book from me in 2018… and who knows, maybe two. A boy can dream …”

I should mention that the focus of Martin’s actual blog post was a reminder that the anthology, The Book of Swords, which contains his short story “Sons of the Dragon” about Aenys I and Maegor the Cruel, is still set for release on October 10. Amazon is taking pre-orders … but Martin pointed out that your local bookstores probably are as well.

136 responses

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    1. What I’m most interested in is more on the reign of the Old King, since he was probably the greatest ruler Westeros ever saw. We see a lot of bad rulers or middling ones in the series and its history; I’m interested in how GRRM really fleshes out the reign of a great one.

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    2. This is def cool news.

      As an aside, I don’t care about The Winds of Winter release anymore. That is to say, I don’t care as much about it. I think we are blessed to have the show itself and overall it has delivered more than I could have hoped for as a book reader. When TWOW does come out, I have no doubts it will be awesome, but I am done feeling agitated about it.

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    3. Did I read this correctly?

      So “Fire and Blood” is coming out in late 2018 or early 2019….. And GRRM is not sure if The Winds of Winter will come out before or after F&B???????????

      WOW!! We are never getting A Dream of Spring at this rate.

      Books 4 & 5 got off the rails and he probably can’t figure out how to get it back on. I feel bad for the guy.

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    4. As I see it – GRRM doesn’t give a flying fuck about finishing off the WoW ! I guess he never thought the TV show would surpass his books and I get the impression he’s royally pissed off about that!

      Not that I’m bothered (not being a book reader), but I feel sorry for all those who are and still waiting for the next novel in the ASOIAF series. He really should knuckle down and finish off of that series before doing this history of the Targaryens although it would seem a lot of this has already be written.

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    5. I’m afraid that GRRM was not expecting ASOIAF to become such a massive hit through the the TV adaptation, he seems to try to do too many things at once rather than focusing and prioritizing on what needs to be done. hope he doesn’t lose sight on his quality of work and I think that now that the TV show has surpassed the novels, he is going to be criticized up and down and compared to his other novels before the TV show surpassed him. Meaning people may now use the TV adaptation as the “source” material since Season 7 and 8 are now considered to be “primary” and novels “secondary”. I do understand the TV show has diverted quite a bit from the books, but not the ultimate end game.

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    6. I don’t know if GRRM is royally pissed off that the show passed the books. Extremely disappointed in himself, sure, but pissed off?

      If so, he has no body to blame but himself. I know he had those silly visions of the show doing Crows & Dragons in three years (which would’ve totally killed the momentum of the TV show) and was upset that the show runners opted to speed through it and get all of that pointless fluff over in one season (and thereby move pass the books in the process), but that was always an unrealistic expectation.

      At this point, now that the show has passed the books, the show *is* canon. Especially because the show is the only way we will ever see the ending of the story.

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    7. Happy we got the show at least and know we will have a conclusion sometime in the next year or so so I’m happy. And while I’m sure GRRM will finish WOW eventually and it will be awesome, its the book after which has me wondering how long it will be till we get a conclusion in the books. 2025? Feel like that’s reasonable going by the previous books.

      Going forward though I’d rather HBO did a show based of other books and not spin offs of ASOIAF. We are getting a Wheel of Time show from someone, but I’d love a HBO produced Warded Man or The First Law show.

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    8. Writing Timeline….

      GOT: From the 200 page manuscript submitted to the book being published took 2 years.
      2 years between GOT & COK
      2 years between COK & SOS
      5 years between SOS & FFC
      6 years between FFC & DWD

      Right now there is AT LEAST 7 years between DWD & WOW. Based on his comments, I wouldn’t be shocked if it wasn’t done until late 2019.

      The wait keeps getting longer and longer. Even some of the people from westeros org forum are starting to turn on him.

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    9. Dang, I got so used to the Sansa-related drama around here that I almost forgot there were topics that could get worse…

      I bought an anthology with one the of the DWD stories in it. It had some good stories in it, so it was worth the price of admission, but Martin’s story didn’t do much for me.

      Hopefully these will flow better, but we’ll have to wait and see.

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    10. I wonder if this book could be the basis of one of the prequel shows…Still, the time he spent writing this could have been spent finished this series. Ah well….Not worried about it at this point

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    11. A few years ago (shortly after S5 ended, I believe) somebody did a post on this website predicting when tWoW would be published using “scientific” methods. People were speculating that GRRM would whip the book out before S6 started, so that it wouldn’t spoil his big surprises (such as the resurrection of Jon Snow, the results of the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire, how Cersei would react to her Walk of Shame, and whether Stannis really did sacrifice Shireen, among other things).

      Back then, I predicted that the book would be released in 2018, after the final season had aired. People scoffed at that. I continued to pick 2018 as my publishing date even after GRRM made his New Year’s Day post on Jan 1, 2016, apologizing that he couldn’t finish tWoW on time, but that he was only “a few months away.”

      It’s looking like I might’ve actually been overly optimistic.

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    12. I think it’s pretty clear from the last two books that he is still more interested in expanding this universe he created than in bringing anything he set in motion to fruition. He can’t expand the story forwards anymore. To go forward is to make it contract and end. So he’s expanding it backwards instead.

      The really sad thing is that he’s made himself irrelevant to his own master work, for the time being. That has to be really hard for him. There isn’t even the fun of getting to make the big reveals anymore, the show will beat him to all of the important ones. But the show will be long over before he ever finishes writing his books. Maybe when all the hoopla is over he’ll find his way forwards again.

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    13. Volume 2 has no release date? Of course not, that might step on some screenwriters toes!

      Blackfyre prequel *confirmed*

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    14. The Bastard: The wait keeps getting longer and longer. Even some of the people from westeros org forum are starting to turn on him.

      GRRM’s biggest problem is that he completely lost control of his narrative. A big part of that is because his editor(s) were too afraid to rein him in. All that pointless fluff with fAegon and his invasion, the Queenmaker storyline in Dorne, all the non-Theon Greyjoy stuff, the politicking in Slaver’s Bay, and Brienne’s endless quest for … something. Those should’ve been culled from the story, and “Crows / Dragons” should’ve been edited down to one single novel.

      But because his editors didn’t rein him in … his narrative grew out of control, and now he can’t control it anymore. So it takes him forever to figure out how to tie up all of the loose ends and move to the end game.

      One of the single smartest thing that D&D did was to completely gut the “Crows / Dragons” story of all the pointless fluff and rush through it in a single season. Season 5 might be considered the worst season, but that isn’t because D&D went off-book. It’s because the material they had to work with sucked. But D&D was able to bring us to the end-game … something GRRM still hasn’t been able to figure out.

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    15. Black Raven,

      I suspect that he thinks he gets more revenue from ASoIaF-related books when he holds open ASoIaF itself.

      There is also the possibility that WoW is finished and he is holding it back until he figures it garners the most money. Before or after season 8, before or after the scheduled anthology or other anthologies, after the nick of time.

      Whether not finished due to higher priorities assigned to other activities, or not submitted to the publisher, the cynicism towards readers is showing.

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    16. Ryan,

      He doesn’t owe you anything.

      If he had finished it, he would have published it. It’s not an eff you to anyone, he just hasn’t finished it yet.

      If he never finishes the story, it won’t be because he doesn’t care about fans, it’ll be because he lost control of the narrative and was unable to reign it in.

      He also wants to deliver the best book he possibly can. I would advise people to stop worrying about it and stop utterly disrespecting the man who created this entire universe.

      You wouldn’t have any of it without him, so you should stop acting like he’s some lazy loser you can just insult. He is not “the worst”. Writing a 1500 page book with a million characters and a dozen interwoven stories is not easy, it’s extraordinarily difficult.

      You’ll get the ending of the story with the show. If the books come, then great, if they don’t, so be it.

      He’s doing what he can, that’s all we can ask of him.

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    17. Marlana,

      Yes, you could be right – Perhaps as well as the WoW, he’s finished off ADoS also (said with tongue in cheek) :p

      He’s certainly made a fortunate out of it and I would consider him to be a ‘mercenary little shit’ if he’s holding back the ASOIAF novels just to make a ‘few’ extra bucks out of it from releasing prequel stories!

      I think Josh L in his comment has hit the nail on the head? GRRM has lost control of the narrative. Although I have never read the books, I have read some of the POV chapters on-line simply to compare how close some of the scenes in the TV show were to the book. TBH, I found it heavy going. Just too much detail and a lot of it not really necessary to get the story across.

      I think there was a named character count made a while ago across the 5 published novels and the number approached some 2000! So I’m hardly surprised George has lost the plot! If an experienced editor had persuaded George to cut out all the dross, the story would have probably been completed years ago 😉

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    18. Markus Stark:
      Ryan,

      He is not “the worst”. Writing a 1500 page book with a million characters and a dozen interwoven stories is not easy, it’s extraordinarily difficult.

      He’s doing what he can, that’s all we can ask of him.

      That’s GRRM’s problem – too many characters and too many interwoven stories. I’m not saying that he’s not a great writer – he is, but IMO, he’s bitten off more than he can chew and lost the narrative.

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    19. Markus Stark:
      Ryan,

      He doesn’t owe you anything.

      He’s doing what he can, that’s all we can ask of him.

      Doesn’t he owe anything to the readers who bought his books, got invested in his story and are basically responsible for all the fame and money that he has earned?
      His readers bought his earlier books with the expectation that the story that they are investing so much of their time in will have an ending. If they knew that the story will remain unfinished, would they even have purchased his earlier books? He does have a responsibility to the readers because of whom he found fame. And the fact that he has let his side projects sidetrack him from finishing this series is unprofessional imo.
      There is no call to insult him of course, people do tend to get out of line in that respect, but at the same time there is nothing wrong in holding him accountable for failing to deliver or his promises.

      That’s the reason I appreciate D&D, in spite of some problems in their writing in the last couple of seasons. They have given every day of the last 10 years of their lives to fulfill their commitment towards this show. They take seven months instead of seven years to come up with their scripts for a season, which a lot of book fans fail to take into account. And they will give us an ending. And yet they keep getting insulted as hacks and even worse, which is also very uncalled for.

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    20. Markus Stark:
      Ryan,

      He doesn’t owe you anything.

      He’s doing what he can, that’s all we can ask of him.

      Bullshit. Martin owes a good-faith effort to finish ASOIAF. Since he has been “months” away from delivering TWOW for THREE years (according to him, not putting words in his mouth) it is fair to say he hasn’t made that effort. In his post, while he confirms he has made next to no progress on TWOW for the last three years, he has the nerve to market some side project(s). Little wonder he has disabled comments for all of his latest blog posts.

      My balls, George Martin can eat them.

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    21. Josh L,

      You hit the bullseye. I need to reference your post every time I get into an argument with book purists.

      The issue with book purists is that they believe GRRM’s writing and narrative structure are as close to perfect as humanly possible. And that’s just not true. He is really good though.

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    22. Black Raven,

      I took the easy option and listened to the ASOIAF audiobooks (well I read AFFC and ADWD). I did find myself wanting to skip ahead in the two latter books. I heard somewhere that after ASOS Mr Martin originally intended to have a 5 year gap until the next book (so book Arya would have jumped from 11 to 16, book Dany from 14 to 19 and so on) but then he felt it didn’t work out and went back to rewrite some of the material which delayed AFFC. I don’t know what the retirement age is in the USA but after an adult lifetime of work part of me can understand him wanting to take things easy. Four and a bit years ago when I became aware of ASOIAF (originally via the show) I was really impatient to know what happened next but now I have become somewhat resigned that TWOW might not come out (I don’t want to offend anybody but apart from the Arya preview chapter which was [sort of] adapted into the show I haven’t been very impressed with the TWOW preview chapters [and there is a school of thought that they were chapters pushed back from ADWD – so 6 years old at least] – I’m actually one of those unusual creatures who LIKES Sansa and I thought the Sansa preview chapter was pretty dire ). Of course, I’m still interested in the story or I wouldn’t watch the show.

      Unless it is of importance to the main story I’m not really that interested in Targaryen fake history. If I want history I’ll read a real history book – not all historians have a style which is dry and crusty. But that’s just me – it’s not for me to dictate what other folk should or should not like.

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    23. Well, not to be a contrarian but I love George’s history and world building (World of Ice and Fire was brilliant) so I’m totally stoked about Fire and Blood. 🙂

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    24. I want to read more about the Targaryen
      I will read Winds when it comes out what Martin in not finishing Asoiaf. At least we will see an ending on tv.

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    25. I am done with GRRM. I don’t care if he finishes or not. One of the folks at westeros.org said he was changing everything in Winds since the show passed him.

      If that is true, and when Winds comes out, Stannis is the real Azor Azai, etc., then GRRM will cement himself as the biggest douchebag of all time. What did he want? Did he really want D&D to spin 4-5 seasons out of AFFC and ADWD and completely tank the show, the careers of all of the actors, etc. because his lazy ass hadn’t finished the book in 5 years and probably wouldn’t finish the last one any sooner than 2022, if ever?

      And all of the “GRRM is not your bitch” people can stick it too, that argument might have had some merit 10 years ago, but not now. Respect is a two way street and its clear GRRM has no respect for the people who made him rich.

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    26. Imagine that George is actually writing The Winds of Winter AND A Dream of Springs simultaneously and is planning to surprise all the readers by publishing both of them at the same time.

      Oh, a man can dream…

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    27. It seems to me that GRRM is focusing on everything but The Winds of Winter. Thankfully, I let go of the books some time ago so I don’t even pay attention to it anymore… I will read book 6 when/if it comes out but my enthusiasm for it is long gone by now.

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    28. I don’t really have any interest in reading every damn bit of back story that GRRM creates (though that said the history and lore extras on the bluray disks are short enough to be interesting), and I just wish he had focused on getting ASOIAF finished – and shortened without some of the long offshoots in FeastDance. That said, maybe as an author if he gets a bit writers blocked the only way he can get unblocked is to concentrate on other things for a while, who knows?

      I would be more interested in ‘The Pact’ + ‘The Age of Heroes’ as a setting ( after the completion of the current saga) as it would genuinely expand on the themes of ASOIAF.

      I will still wait as patiently as I can and treat the books as the true and definitive story but my enthusiasm wanes the longer we have to wait. It’s not as if his are the only multi-volume well written epic stories out there worth reading and some of those are actually complete…

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    29. This “Fire And Blood”. Has he written it himself, I wonder, or is it largely the work of the two nerds, like AWOIAF. There’s a lot of ‘we’ and ‘our’ in what he’s said.

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    30. Oh come on! Is he kidding with us? I understand he is taking his time with the last two books because they are so important but he is publishing another books and he is not even sure when the WoW will be finished? I gotta say its pretty annoying. Well, at least we are sure it is postponed one more year.

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    31. GRRM means well as do D&D and Cogman and such. They want to create and tell this great story. Which is why this whole thing is so tragic. I believe that GRRM thought the existence of the series would spur him to action on getting his books out but it turned out to paralize him. Or maybe he never would have finished the series anyway. In my opinion GRRM’s great contribution was to create compelling personal narratives for his characters. That approach worked really well for 3 books. He had a “far off” destination in mind for each character. But as the destination got closer, I think he started having trouble because the growth of the character would start to have to take second place to the plot. Which for him was never the real strength. It’s all understandable given the kind of writer GRRM is. But sad for him, since it means he’ll never finish his story. Meanwhile D&D are just the opposite – I don’t think for a second that they could create characters are compelling as many of GRRM’s. But hell if they can’t tie together and tell an intricate story in grand fashion. They were the partners GRRM need, and he saw that.

      As to the subject of the post, I don’t really see a point in an “expanded” The Dance of the Dragons – I just listened to the Iain Glen reading of it and I’m just not sure what needs to be “expanded” there. We already know pretty much everything about who (human and dragon) killed who and the context of that, how various characters related to each other, major battles, etc. If it’s going to be expanded I would think it should be as a more traditional GRRM narrative with PoV’s etc. In other words a more personal story. But just as a history? I don’t see the point.

      However, I’ll happily buy Fire and Blood as long as E&L aren’t involved. There should be enough new history in there to make it interesting. But if they are involved as writers, I’m not interested in supporting their biased and hateful ideas.

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    32. No One,

      It would be karma if we the book loving fandom actually put off buying the new ASOIAF books for several months when they come out, in a collective “we’ll buy them when WE are ready to buy them”

      Not going to happen of course, I’ll be shelling out for them as soon as they hit the (virtual) shelves 😀

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    33. Doesn’t he have assistants, ghost writers and other staff for this stuff. What about the dude that co-writes all The Expanse books? Didn’t he work for GRRM?

      Get a damm staff and churn out some books! You can certainly afford one.

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    34. ghost of winterfell,

      Nobody should be getting insulted. Both D&D and GRRM work extremely hard.

      Yes, GRRM is exceptionally slow, but what he’s writing is extraordinarily unwieldy as well.

      Of course I want the books to come out, but if they don’t we just have to accept that he wasn’t able to do it because it became too massive for him.

      I think it’s completely unfair when people say he doesn’t care about the fans, or that he has lost interest.

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    35. Cumsprite: Bullshit. Martin owes a good-faith effort to finish ASOIAF. Since he has been “months” away from delivering TWOW for THREE years (according to him, not putting words in his mouth) it is fair to say he hasn’t made that effort. In his post, while he confirms he has made next to no progress on TWOW for the last three years, he has the nerve to market some side project(s). Little wonder he has disabled comments for all of his latest blog posts.

      My balls, George Martin can eat them.

      He has never confirmed that he made “next to no progress” in the last three years. You just invented that.

      I’d like to see you write something comparable to ASOIAF. It takes a long time.

      I believe he has been making a good faith effort. Failing does not mean he hasn’t tried.

      He gave many erroneous estimates for the last two books as well, and yet they came out.

      The fact that he’s been wrong about TWOW publication date shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. It doesn’t mean he hasn’t been working hard. It just means his work takes him way longer than he initially anticipates. Which we should all know by now.

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    36. I find it funny/sad how an article about him basically announcing a couple books within the next couple of years became a long thread of people insulting him and giving up hope.

      As if every time he opens his mouth to say anything other than “TWOW is complete” is a slap in the face of the fans.

      He can’t just magically snap his fingers and make the book come out. He has to actually write it.

      He’s been working on the TWOW since January 2012. We are in July 2017. That’s five and a half years, for what is approximately going to be a 1500 page manuscript.

      If he had published Winds this year, it would mean he had written approx. 300 pages a year since 2012. Do you realize how much that is ? That’s insane.

      He has a life, he has other projects, he has good days and bad days, and he needs inspiration to write. He can’t just sit down for a couple hours and shit out an amazing 20 page chapter.

      Plus he doesn’t just write something and move on, he writes a first draft, then a second, perhaps a third. He’s a perfectionist, as he’s said many times. Then he has to edit, and even when he’s finished all the writing, he’ll have to go back and make sure all the details make sense, figure out the order of the chapters, how the stories intersect in terms of the timeline, and scour the script for inconsistencies, contradictions between two different POVs.

      These books aren’t written in a linear way. He doesn’t write the chapters in the order we read them. He writes multiple chapters for a certain character, then moves on to the next.

      This non-linear aspect makes lining everything up very tricky. If he changes his mind about something that happens mid-way through the book in 2015, he has to go back and check all the chapters written up to that point to factor in that change.

      What if he has a late Sam chapter where the Citadel receives word of something that happened in King’s Landing, but then he writes a Cersei chapter where he changes those King’s Landing events somewhat. Then he has to go back to his Sam chapter, the one he possibly wrote two years earlier, and change the news Sam receives.

      Imagine constantly doing this for all these interwoven stories.

      He’s going to be constantly reading and re-reading and adding and removing and perfecting until it’s done. This is anything but “lazy”.

      To do that kind of work on 200 to 300 pages a year is insane.

      Not sure why nobody realizes how massive the work load for such a book must be.

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    37. Black Raven,

      I think HBO is paying him to hold off until the TV series wraps up because there’s such an outcry from fans when the show change things from the books. Now that we’re in unknown territory there isn’t as much backlash.

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    38. Markus Stark,

      George Martin most certainly has confirmed that he has made next to no progress on TWOW since his blog post on January 2, 2016. Back then he thought he was mere months away in the summer of 2015, it is two years later and he is still months away. However you slice it, that’s not progress. You math people might note that I said three years, not two …

      … I am from the future and I’ve got bad news for you regarding TWOW.

      I’d like to write something comparable to the first three books too! That would be wicked awesome. I do, however, drop two chapters of AFFC/ADWD caliber work in the shitter most mornings. Three if I had a big dinner.

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    39. Markus Stark:

      If he had published Winds this year, it would mean he had written approx. 300 pages a year since 2012. Do you realize how much that is ? That’s insane.

      It’s not insane. It’s less than one page a day.

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    40. Grandmaester Flash:
      This “Fire And Blood”.Has he written it himself, I wonder, or is it largely the work of the two nerds, like AWOIAF.There’s a lot of ‘we’ and ‘our’ in what he’s said.

      I’ve wondered about that also. I believe GRRM relies heavily (or did) on the ‘dynamic duo’ on westeros.org to come up with the history behind his ASOIAF stories. Perhaps he should allow them (with some input) to finish off his story!

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    41. Markus Stark,

      Damn, even George himself has admitted by now he owes his readers a conclusion. But keep up the top-notch enabling; somebody has to do that job.

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    42. I do believe that GRRM will eventually complete and release The Winds of Winter. When that day comes, I sincerely hope that more of the book resembles Mercy and The Forsaken, which were rich, intriguing, and more closely reminiscent of the series I love, and much less Tyrion and Arianne II, which represented everything I so strongly disliked about AFFC/ADWD compounded by a thousand, and which made me want to run into the wilderness screaming bloody murder – the latter especially (Alayne and Theon? Meh). That being said, I place absolutely no weight on his half-hearted hints that the book might be done in 2018 – it’s far too similar to his previous claims that ultimately fell through.

      For his own sake, once he wrote that long acknowledgement/apology that the show was passing him, I wish that Martin had stuck to his own self-prescribed policy of not providing any updates at all until the book was done. Watching ASOIAF fans on Reddit and elsewhere whip themselves into a frenzy over this scrap of nothing is just freaking sad (some of them deserve it, but with the exception of the very worst, I try not to take too much pleasure in their misery).

      A Dream of Spring will never be published, and I’m perfectly fine with that. Martin doesn’t owe me anything – he already gave us these characters and this world, which formed the basis of Game of Thrones, my favorite television show ever. If he wants to finish his novels, by all means let him try. If he wants to work on other projects or just enjoy his life, by all means let him do that. He’s more than earned the right to enjoy his golden years without being harassed by bitter fans – I wish him peace, and nothing but the best. But for my part, I have no interest in hanging on his every word. I have long since moved on from the need to read the end of this series in a novel. For me, Game of Thrones is more than enough, as is the ending that Benioff and Weiss will deliver us in the next 12-18 months.

      The history of the Targaryens is interesting to me (I suspect it will form the basis of at least one, if not more, of the potential spinoffs). I will consider buying it … if and only if E&L are not credited on the project in any way beyond a cursory acknowledgement in the dedication, and receive no direct financial profit from it. I have still never read nor purchased The World of Ice and Fire for that reason, and I never will. I can’t help it if some of the ancillary revenue from the show and the books finds its way into their pockets, but I refuse to directly hand those two so much as a penny of my money.

      Josh L,

      This.

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    43. Carla:
      Black Raven,

      I think HBO is paying him to hold off until the TV series wraps up because there’s such an outcry from fans when the show change things from the books. Now that we’re in unknown territory there isn’t as much backlash.

      Yes, you could be right! We all know what happened when GoT more or less was following the books? Many of the book readers complained when they saw D&D had dropped some book characters from the show or some of the lines the principle characters spoke was changed and not ‘book canon’.

      TBH, I’m glad that the show has surpassed the books. There was a lot of bad shit going down on some other websites re the differences between GoT and ASOIAF, but now most of that has ceased. Well, not from one lady we all know well and who still reckons the show sucks, hehe 😀

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    44. “Loyal service means telling hard truths.” -Maester Cressen

      I don’t understand how Martin’s more loyal fans can be so cavalier about him not finishing the series. His name is quickly becoming the butt of many jokes. I’ve now seen two or three tv series that have poked fun at Martin’s slow pace, and that’s not including that host who made the video of what Martin was really doing instead of writing. If you truly respect the man and want his name to be remembered fondly, you should encourage him to complete his life’s work. His legacy demands it.

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    45. Black Raven,

      Here is Mr. Martin´s take on this:

      ” I’ve seen some truly weird reports about WOW on the internet of late, by ‘journalists’ who make their stories up out of whole cloth. I don’t know which story is more absurd, the one that says the book is finished and I’ve been sitting on it for some nefarious reason, or the one that says I have no pages.”

      http://grrm.livejournal.com/544709.html

        Quote  Reply

    46. The NAB is a wonderful resource for merriment. Ten years ago this weekend, George Martin got huffy with a NAB commenter. He didn’t have to respond; he could have just declined to post the comment. But this fellow (fella?) dared to question the book-writer’s dedication to completing the series and our queso-stained wretch could not let that pass. He reaffirmed his vows of fidelity to the series using words such as “ignorance” and “moronic” to describe doubts of his dedication. He closed with a statement sure to cow the despicable non-believers:

      “Ten years from now, no one is going to care how quickly the books came out. The only thing that will matter, the only thing anyone will remember, is how good they were. That’s my main concern, and always will be.”

      I count real good up to ten.

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    47. Black Raven: GRRM has lost control of the narrative.

      Even with the extra characters and seemingly pointless action, he could still steer it back to the plot and write that.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Ser Not Appearing in this Series: I don’t really have any interest in reading every damn bit of back story that GRRM creates

      When one buys a multi-volume saga, it is reasonable for one to expect all the necessary information to be included in the volumes of the story itself.

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    49. Carla:
      Black Raven,

      I think HBO is paying him to hold off until the TV series wraps up because there’s such an outcry from fans when the show change things from the books. Now that we’re in unknown territory there isn’t as much backlash.

      I have wondered about that for a while. I think there is an agreement between GRRM, HBO, and publisher to sequence publication to maximum benefit for all.

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    50. Edward,

      E&L are Elio and Linda, a couple who runs Westeros.org, a fansite dedicated to GRRM’s world. The site has been around for a long time, long before the show, and their devotion to the written word is frighteningly intense. They’re so invested in the minute details of the world that GRRM occasionally uses them to fact-check his own writing – they remember extremely minor character details and plot points that the author himself doesn’t, so he allowed them to serve as co-writers on The World of Ice and Fire encyclopedia. As one might expect, they’re so committed to Martin’s original text that they view any deviation from it as borderline sacrilege. And that would be fine, except that they frequently express that opinion in a hateful and vicious way, and their attitude has fostered a community of like-minded individuals on their forums (with most reasonable regulars having long since thrown up their hands in disgust and left for more open-minded communities).

      As the show has grown in popularity, diverged from the books and eventually passed them, the venom has gotten worse, and the standards of their website have slipped accordingly (and to be clear, the venom isn’t purely show-based; those who dissent from their rigid view of the books often suffer same invective). People who express dissenting opinions on their forums are regularly banned, and those who speak up are abused with regularity by the most vicious posters and occasionally the mods themselves. Linda, in particular, has behaved horrifically towards people that she doesn’t like or those who disagree with her (making liberal use of calling people c—ts, among other things). She’s directed her venom against the writers and actors involved the show (she’s made some unspeakably vile comments about Lena Headey in particular), and people in the fandom who have spoken against her or just offered opinions that she hates. When black actors were cast as certain characters who are described as white in the novels, she launched into an abysmally racist screed about what a betrayal it was. So, objectively, not good people.

      Elio, at least, has pulled back a bit from the show since it moved past the books, but Linda still “reviews” it (translation: she whines and rants about how it’s different from the books, even though there are no more books). And unfortunately, they still profit from the show – Linda does Swedish translation for it, and they have no compunctions about advertising for HBO on their site because they still collect some form of revenue, even though HBO has wised up and stopped inviting them to premieres and such. So there’s a hypocritical streak, on top of everything else.

      TL;DR – E&L are people who traffic in the kind of hateful, close-minded rhetoric that represents the antithesis of everything this particular community aspires to (every community has lapses, of course, but we want to do better). Their opinions are their opinions, but I find them despicable, and I prefer not to support them in any way.

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    51. Cumsprite,

      He hasn’t written every single day since 2012, and you don’t just write a page once and move on, as I said. You write a first draft, and a second, and a third, and maybe a fourth or a fifth. Then you edit, you perfect, etc…

      It’s a long, grueling process. You don’t seem to fully understand what writing actually is.

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    52. Edward:

      The couple who run Westeros.org. They love the books but don’t like the show at all (well they might have liked season one a bit). They used to do a spot by satellite on Sky Atlantics’s Thronecast (show where people involved with GoT are interviewed in the UK) but don’t any longer.

        Quote  Reply

    53. flintstonewielder,

      So what ? Not everyone is capable of that. GRRM is a very slow writer, he has said this himself many times.

      Authors don’t all have the same creative process. Some write huge amounts very quickly, others need time, inspiration, energy, etc…

      I’m not familiar with Erikson’s work so I can’t speak to its quality or complexity, but ASOIAF is an exceptionally complex piece of fiction, and GRRM also wants it to be high quality.

      You can’t compare two different series in such a superficial way and derive any valuable conclusion from it.

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    54. flintstonewielder,

      I’m not “enabling” anything, nothing I say or do has any impact on GRRM, and nothing I say or do is going to enable or disable anything.

      I’m merely giving my opinion on why people are being excessively harsh in my view, and trying to explain it from GRRM’s perspective.

      But by all means, keep up the superficial and judgmental comments.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Young Dragon,

      I must own up to having had a chuckle at the Conan videos, Young Dragon. I think they were linked on this site or its predecessor – to my knowledge we don’t get Conan in the UK.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Young Dragon,

      Of course people want him to complete his legacy. It’ll be tragic if he doesn’t.

      Unfortunately, anyone who thinks the likelihood of him completing it is high is probably being overly optimistic.

      We should just accept that the TV show is the only guarantee we have and stop harassing GRRM.

        Quote  Reply

    57. Markus Stark:
      Cumsprite,

      He hasn’t written every single day since 2012, and you don’t just write a page once and move on, as I said. You write a first draft, and a second, and a third, and maybe a fourth or a fifth. Then you edit, you perfect, etc…

      It’s a long, grueling process. You don’t seem to fully understand what writing actually is.

      Does anyone? I know just enough to write about writing. I am not going to whip out my e-peen, I’ve never written a novel, but, in the words of Stephen King, it’s “long enough to jazz with, not thick enough to be arrogant.” Kidding. I might be able to play Chopsticks with it, I just love using that quote. Anyway, some describe it as an art. Some say it’s a craft. Maybe both! But writers from CS Splitter to EB White to King and beyond generally agree that the method of writing that most often leads to success is the BIC method. Butt-in-Chair.

      Martin simply hasn’t put in the time. He’s working hard, but not on the ASOIAF series. So when people question his work ethic and priorities, he should at least have the grace not to be an ass about it while being wrong at the same time.

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    58. Jared,

      Anyone who has watched her reviews would know you essentially just made that up.

      She does not whine about difference between the show and non-existent books, she whines about differences between the show and the material that does exist from the first five books. Many of her complaints make sense, others don’t.

      Also, they have not been purely negative about the show. In her latest review, she said it was a pretty strong first episode, she praised the Hound’s scenes, and only disliked Arya’s first scene and the King’s Landing stuff.

      Nothing despicable about that.

      But yes, she can be extremely insulting sometimes. She’s definitely not a very pleasant person.

      As for Elio, I find it slanderous to call him “despicable”. From what I’ve seen, he always tries his best to be respectful when criticizing something.

      I’ve never seen anything hateful, insulting, or vitriolic from him, unlike Linda.

      As for black actors, maybe she has a problem with them, but Elio has repeatedly praised many black actors, such as Lucian Msamati who plays Salladhor Saan.

      Salladhor is white in the books, yet Elio has said many times that Msamati was an excellent casting choice (which is true).

      The reality is people just hate anyone who criticizes the show. There is no justification for despising Elio Garcia.

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    59. Marlana,

      How ? All the quote proves is that GRRM’s estimates are completely wrong. That’s not news, he knows it himself. He’s systematically much later than he anticipates.

      That doesn’t mean he isn’t working, it just means he’s absurdly slow.

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    60. mau,

      No, they aren’t.

      We don’t know how much time a day he spends on the books. He’s extremely slow, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t work.

      I’m pretty certain we will get TWOW one day, and we will all see that he did indeed work hard on it.

      The last book however, I doubt will see the light of day, and unfortunately people have to accept that. Better to have a good surprise than be disappointed.

      Just watch the show and stop harassing GRRM, that’s what I would say to anyone calling him “lazy”.

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    61. mau,

      D&D don’t face the same difficulties in terms of writing. They have a much simpler narrative, far fewer characters and subplots, 90% or more of a script is dialogue, and they are a total of 4 people in the writer’s room.

      4 young people writing approx. 500 pages of dialogue in a year is easier than one 68 year old man writing 300 pages of prose in a year.

      I have enormous sympathy for the unique challenges of the production, because it’s massive. However, production is not the issue for Game of Thrones. D&D are excellent as showrunners. The way they have managed such a huge show is extremely impressive.

      My issues are with their writing style, and they should be able to write a more coherent story than they do. Their narrative has been greatly simplified, so there’s no excuse for all the inconsistencies in the plot.

      They just aren’t meticulous writers. What they are great at is organizing the production and managing the massive cast and crew.

      I have always given credit for that.

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    62. Jared,

      My goodness, I knew none of this.

      The issue I have with Martin is that the problems he’s having with finishing these books are entirely of his own making. He’s written himself into so many knots now with all these sprawling threads that he can’t easily untie them in a satisfying way while – and this is essential – maintaining any sort of pace in the story telling (good story telling means that as a saga draws to its end, the stakes get higher and the story begins to speed up towards the final act. Both FoC and ADoD have completely killed the pace and bogged the story down in pointless side stories.

      On top of this, Martin hates meeting audience expectations and so he continually tries trip his readers up by taking characters in ways they don’t expect. That’s brilliant when used sparingly, but he has tied himself in more knots by killing characters off or making them do unexpected things. Introducing another Targaryen (pretender or not) at this stage in the story is just ridiculous. Cut you characters down while widening the scale of events.

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    63. Do the people who lock arms around GRRM to fend off anyone who dares to criticize him for the lengthy delays have any real understanding at all of how much those delays are damaging his legacy?

      Here’s some perspective, the article linked below mocking GRRM for WoW not being released yet is from over three years ago. THREE YEARS! It was already a joke then.
      http://www.wetpaint.com/george-r-r-martin-announces-823717/

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    64. Grandmaester Flash,

      E I think posts as Ran – I don’t know about L.

      Markus Stark: The reality is people just hate anyone who criticizes the show.

      Markus, you have a right to be GRRM’s champion but to say “people” hate “anyone” who criticises the show is going a bit strong I feel. Are we talking about websites or real life? I have met people in real life who tried watching GoT and found it was just TOO dark for them. Someone I know said they liked the first season but lost interest with all the different locations in the second season. I don’t go round belittling them because they found a show I liked wasn’t for them. I admit that I was referring there to non-(ASOIAF) book-readers who haven’t opted for the show rather than book readers who have expressed a disinclination for the show. I have said before that what a person likes and what a person dislikes is subjective. If an ASOIAF book reader (and I am familiar with the books though am a bit rusty as it’s a couple or three years ago I finished ’em) thinks the changes in plot line are too much for them and don’t want to watch the show anymore that’s fair enough but as somebody who watches the show I don’t want to be told I’m an utter dingbat for doing so.

      Didn’t Elio make a documentary accusing HBO of bribing critics to give GoT good reviews?

      I don’t think anyone is really “harassing” Mr Martin on this site – expressing frustration maybe but not “harassing”. I haven’t read anything where anybody threatened to break into his Santa Fe home and force feed him on bread and water till he gets TWOW finished! If somebody said something disrespectful on his NAB maybe that could be construed as “harassment” but saying “Gosh, I’m fed up of waiting” isn’t “harassment” as I understand it.

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    65. Jared,

      Jesus Christ they sound like a pain in the ass. I’m so glad I haven’t ventured over there because I’d be banned within one post.

      Thanks for the awesome breakdown btw

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    66. Markus Stark,

      I’ll take your word for it on her most recent review. I’ve seen enough from her over the past seven years that I’ve been participating in this fandom that she’s exhausted any benefit of the doubt that I might be willing to extend her. Calling her “extremely insulting”, “not a very pleasant person” and saying that she has a “problem” with black actors is the height of delicate generosity. If only she drew upon the same charitable spirit when she was dragging Lena Headey’s personal life through the mud.

      I’ll concede that I should perhaps be more forgiving of her other half, who is certainly the more reasonable of the two. His close association with her shouldn’t automatically cast shade upon him, but at a certain point, those we choose to voluntarily associate with inevitably reflect upon us as well. I’ll cast no personal judgment upon him for that, but my primary point of not wishing to make any contributions, financial or otherwise, to their joint venture stands.

      Speaking only for myself, I don’t “hate” those who criticize the show. I don’t know them personally. I can only respond to what they put out into the world, and it is the opinions that I find despicable, not the individuals themselves. That being said, I’ve heard enough from one of them to get a sense of what kind of person she is, and I refuse to mask my low opinion of those who can’t treat people with dissenting opinions with respect, or refute those opinions without resorting to hateful invective and personal vitriol – an opinion that you have expressed yourself on many occasions. That’s a test that half of this couple has failed in stunning fashion, and the other has, at the very least, remained silent. As far as I’m concerned, the bridge is burned, and a few fig leaves of fairness aren’t going to mask or repair the damage that has been done.

      This is the last I’m going to say on the subject.

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    67. Markus Stark,

      He doesn’t work enough. He is struggling with this story for 17 years now, he doesn’t know what to do with it anymore, he needs another writer, that’s clear as day to me, but he is too arrogant to admit that he failed as a writer.

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    68. Markus Stark,

      You are ignoring the fact that those books were written as unadaptable, so it was extremely hard to create simpler narative, to create a TV show from the mess that the books have become, to create something coherent, something that has focus and moves forward, while original authour clearely lost the story.

      So they have a really hard task, they have to do something GRRM is not capable of. And it was never their job to that. In 2007 they wanted to adapt ASOIAF, not to suffer the consequences of Martin’s unprofessionalism.

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    69. mau:
      Markus Stark,

      You are ignoring the fact that those books were written as unadaptable, so it was extremely hard to create simpler narative, to create a TV show from the mess that the books have become, to create something coherent, something that has focus and moves forward, while original authour clearely lost the story.

      So they have a really hard task, they have to do something GRRM is not capable of.And it was never their job to that. In 2007 they wanted to adapt ASOIAF, not to suffer the consequences of Martin’s unprofessionalism.

      Plus 1000!

      If people want to defend GRRM’s endless delays, fine. But it is pretty ludicrous for those same people to then turn around and trash D&D for the show not playing out exactly as they think GRRM would have written it. Considering the unfinished mess of a narrative GRRM has left them with D&D are doing the best they can to bring this beast to a satisfying conclusion so they can move on with their lives.

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    70. Markus Stark: He’s going to be constantly reading and re-reading and adding and removing and perfecting until it’s done. This is anything but “lazy”.

      To do that kind of work on 200 to 300 pages a year is insane.

      And yet, he submitted in the pile of feces that was “A Feast of Crows” and “A Dance with Dragons” even after years and years of hard work, plotting, and editing.

      Also, there are many authors whose workload easily outpaces GRRM. Steven Erickson wrote a 1,000 pages novel each year for 10 years and finished his “Malazan Book of the Fallen” epic in the same amount of time it has taken GRRM to complete one single novel. Brandon Sanderson produces three or four novels each year, and his Cosmere work (involving several different series such as Mistborn and Stormlight Archives) is highly intricate. Way more than aSoIaF.

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    71. When the sun rises in the west, sets in the east when the seas go dry. When the mountains blow in the wind like leaves, then will GRRM finish “A Song Of Ice And Fire”.

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    72. Having yet another Targ side story and history is like getting more details on why Thomas Covenant contracted leprosy. We get it, GRRM loves those wacky dysfunctional Targs and their extraordinary pets. If one didn’t understand from TWoI&F, TP&tQ and TRP what the Targs are all about, then one hasn’t been paying attention.

      Ok, maybe I wouldn’t mind more Westeros world-building D&E tales that would give more glimpses into Stark and Great Bastard histories. Or maybe I would cheer if a Doom side story came out (I wonder how dramatically similar it would be to actual Roman events and chaos surrounding Pompeii and Vesuvius), just to understand if it was cursed, magical or a geological coincidence. But it’s all about tolerance now, rather than enjoyment.

      It would be fun if all the NaB jibjab and mystery posts actually led to something worth discussing…but GRRM is so above all that. Yeah, right…GRRM edits and produces and his brand is thriving…yay…whatever. Sit back, ser, enjoy your popcorn and watch the tale be summarized onscreen. I wonder if you recognize it anymore?

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    73. Also, count me among those who refuse to directly contribute any money towards Elio & Linda’s pocketbook. They give “book purists” a bad name.

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    74. Markus Stark:
      Ryan,

      If he never finishes the story, it won’t be because he doesn’t care about fans, it’ll be because he lost control of the narrative and was unable to reign it in.

      Totally agree with you.

      He also wants to deliver the best book he possibly can. I would advise people to stop worrying about it and stop utterly disrespecting the man who created this entire universe.

      I used to think this. I have been accused of being a book purist for thinking this, while all along I was just a fan of his world and wanted to know the end through his incredible writing. But I have given up. Its not to be.

      You wouldn’t have any of it without him, so you should stop acting like he’s some lazy loser you can just insult. He is not “the worst”. Writing a 1500 page book with a million characters and a dozen interwoven stories is not easy, it’s extraordinarily difficult.

      Im sure it is. then perhaps he could have asked for help from his editors, possibly writing more shorter books in less time

      You’ll get the ending of the story with the show. If the books come, then great, if they don’t, so be it. He’s doing what he can, that’s all we can ask of him.

      Maybe he is. I no longer worry about it now

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    75. Dame of Mercia:
      Grandmaester Flash,

      Markus, you have a right to be GRRM’s champion but to say “people” hate “anyone” who criticises the show is going a bit strong I feel.Are we talking about websites or real life?I have met people in real life who tried watching GoT and found it was just TOO dark for them. Someone I know said they liked the first season but lost interest with all the different locations in the second season. I don’t go round belittling them because they found a show I liked wasn’t for them.I admit that I was referring there to non-(ASOIAF) book-readers who haven’t opted for the show rather than book readers who have expressed a disinclination for the show.I have said before that what a person likes and what a person dislikes is subjective. If an ASOIAF book reader (and I am familiar with the books though am a bit rusty as it’s a couple or three years ago I finished ’em) thinks the changes in plot line are too much for them and don’t want to watch the show anymore that’s fair enough but as somebody who watches the show I don’t want to be told I’m an utter dingbat for doing so.

      This a thousand times

      I don’t think anyone is really “harassing” Mr Martin on this site – expressing frustration maybe but not “harassing”.I haven’t read anything where anybody threatened to break into his Santa Fe home and force feed him on bread and water till he gets TWOW finished!If somebody said something disrespectful on his NAB maybe that could be construed as “harassment” but saying “Gosh, I’m fed up of waiting” isn’t “harassment” as I understand it.

      well said, my thoughts exactly

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    76. Josh L,

      When Marlon James, winner of the Man Booker Prize in 2015, said

      “I realized how sick and tired I was of arguing about whether there should be a black hobbit in Lord of the Rings. African folklore is just as rich, and just as perverse as that shit. We have witches, we have demons, we have goblins, and mad kings. We have stories of royal succession that would put Wolf Hall to shame. We beat the Tudors two times over”

      Antonsson was quite vexed. Apparently James does not possess an “understanding of and love for the genre.” She said something else much juicier, but I can’t fucking find it.

      If it isn’t white people swinging swords and shit, it isn’t fantasy. I guess.

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    77. Markus Stark:
      flintstonewielder,

      I’m not “enabling” anything, nothing I say or do has any impact on GRRM, and nothing I say or do is going to enable or disable anything.

      I’m merely giving my opinion on why people are being excessively harsh in my view, and trying to explain it from GRRM’s perspective.

      But by all means, keep up the superficial and judgmental comments.

      In short: You are a self-indulgent enabler. Thank you for confirming.

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    78. Jared,

      E&L are people who traffic in the kind of hateful, close-minded rhetoric that represents the antithesis of everything this particular community aspires to (every community has lapses, of course, but we want to do better). Their opinions are their opinions, but I find them despicable, and I prefer not to support them in any way.

      They and their ilk are what some here call ‘book purists’. And I totally agree with this lable when its applied to them. Unfortunately E&L have so damaged the reputations of book readers that now anyone who questions anything about the show is considered just like them. I wish they had not done so because its done a huge disservice to the vast majority of book readers who are reasonable and are willing to except changes from the show, but should also be allowed to make critical comments without being insulted by the label that E&L wear proudly

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    79. I don’t plan to get involved into this argument but I must say for myself that this wait really took a toll on me… sometimes, I forget the books exist to be honest. I remember in 2012-2014, I used to re-read them every year while being in anticipation for next season. And I used to joke that not only book 7, but also book 6 wouldn’t be out before the series finishes… but now it has nearly become a reality. What’s my opinion on GRRM… well, considering books 4 and 5 were quite a disappointment for me and that book 6 is nowhere in sight, with his statements constantly being false, I can say I lost a lot of respect for him and a lot of enthusiasm for novels.

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    80. Black Raven,

      He shouldn’t be pissed at anything- he did it to himself. Maybe if he could pull his head out his ass and stop writing everything BUT the book that has missed multiple release dates, he could actually finish the damned thing. Like a lot of fans I’m giving up tho. He will die before he finishes the series he set out to write in the early 90s- and the story will die with him. I’m not spending another dime on anything else he publishes ever. He is the ultimate troll. Here’s to looking towards D&D to finish what he never could. 🍺🍺 hodor

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    81. mau: he needs another writer

      Yes. For some time I have thought he could move forward by talking with another writer or two, to unscramble the lines and share writing tasks. Other writers bring in literature doctors who get only money and not credit other than a thank you (“without whom…”) in the foreword. He could consult his way out of the logjam and no one would ever know.

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    82. Hodors Bastard: Doom side story

      Some quick tinfoil about the Doom: the Valyrians used a Greyscale precursor to fuse rocks into qtheir straight, smooth roads and bestone gargoyles and dragons into Dragonstone. To defeat the WWs, they researched creating the hottest fires. Volcanic energy, geothermal activity, dragons, atomic energy.

      Their R&D to create a hot fire delivery system went too far, and caused an atomic explosion, leaving behind poisonous radioactive air which resulted in deformed beings (whose statues were installed in Vaes Dothrak, for example) and a mutation to the Greyscale agent which now bestones human beings.

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    83. GRRM sucks,

      Dear Mr. sucks,

      You put it succinctly and colorfully.

      Ironically, GRRM’s bio says he left Hollywood to write literature and sagas. It says nothing about completion, though.

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    84. Marlana: Their R&D to create a hot fire delivery system went too far, and caused an atomic explosion,

      🙂 One has to wonder if indeed something went wrong. Like you mentioned, someone probably had this bright idea to combine dragonglass, dragon fire, wildfire, red priest potions, molten valyrian steel, magic horns, faceless men preservatives, kraken powder, Maggy the Frog’s stew, eunuch balls, direwolf eyes, dragon teeth/blood and Penny’s tears into a boiling kiln in an attempt to create a theoretical weapon, then an implosion and chain reaction….

      Oops!

      I agree that it would be quite interesting to get a possible Stone Men/greyscale rationale and/or cure when all this is said and done… Per AltShiftX, does anyone think that Sam or Gilly, via their readings, will uncover the technique that Stannis commissioned for Shireen’s greyscale treatment? If so, I hope he applies it to Jorah.

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    85. Thousands of years ago there came a WAIT FOR A BOOK that lasted a generation. Kings froze to death in their castles, same as the shepherds in their huts. And women smothered their babies rather than see them starve, and wept and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks.

      lol

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    86. mau,

      I disagree that Martin is “unprofessional”.

      And in any case, none of that justifies the million plot holes and inconsistencies they’ve needlessly created.

      Every episode is riddled with things that don’t make logical sense and endless contradictions.

      No matter how epic it is, how well it’s acted, or how good it looks, the writing is full of holes.

      That’s not GRRM’s fault, all of the D&D inconsistencies were entirely avoidable. They created these inconsistencies for themselves.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Jared,

      I can basically fully agree with and stand by what you just said.

      I’m glad we’re able to discuss it in a civil way, and I really appreciate your response. Wish more people wrote like you.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Markus Stark:
      mau,

      I disagree that Martin is “unprofessional”.

      And in any case, none of that justifies the million plot holes and inconsistencies they’ve needlessly created.

      Every episode is riddled with things that don’t make logical sense and endless contradictions.

      No matter how epic it is, how well it’s acted, or how good it looks, the writing is full of holes.

      That’s not GRRM’s fault, all of the D&D inconsistencies were entirely avoidable. They created these inconsistencies for themselves.

      The show has very few plot holes for how complex it is. Everybody has an opinion. Some are better then others….

        Quote  Reply

    89. Markus Stark,

      Yeah, those folks are sloppy as hell. Not like our Georgie, though!

      “Then there was the Girl General, who rode about on a white horse with a red mane and commanded a hundred strapping slave soldiers that she had bred and trained herself, all of them young, lean, rippling with muscle, and naked but for breechclouts, yellow cloaks, and long bronze shields with erotic overlays. Their mistress could not have been more than sixteen …”

      I should be more kind. Maybe by breechclouts, Martin meant “diapers”.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Markus Stark,

      Million plot holes. Lol whatever. There is no more than 10 real holes in this entire show, the show that has to finish the story original writer is not able to.

      D&D deserve respect for everything that they’ve done, especially from people who worship a man who is not able to write a story.

        Quote  Reply

    91. I would like to see a TV writer who would make a better season from AFFC/ ADWD than D&D did.

      They created Emmy winning season from that shit.

        Quote  Reply

    92. mau:
      I would like to see a TV writer who would make a better season from AFFC/ ADWD than D&D did.

      They created Emmy winning season from that shit.

      So true. They took the 2 worst books where almost nothing happens, and then made it a great season.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Dame of Mercia,

      I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with finding the jokes funny. I laughed at the Conan skit as well, and that’s kind of my point. I appreciate the world Martin has created and don’t want to see his name turn into a joke.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Jared,

      Very well said. I too have no problem with Elio. He seems like a reasonable guy and of course is very knowledgeable about the underlying history of which ASOIAF/GoT is based.

      Its just Linda his ‘other half’ which pisses me off. Linda is a despicable person in every sense! Not only foul mouthed and condescending to those who don’t agree with her comments, but also to the show runners and some of the actors in GoT. Lena Headey especially! Quite what she has against her beats me? I have never read the books, so have no idea how Cersei is portrayed in those? Worse than as in GoT, more power crazy – more blood thirsty, etc, etc? To me Lena plays the character of Cersei perfectly. HBO and the show runners couldn’t IMHO have chosen a better person to play that character.

      Perhaps Linda was pissed off that they didn’t use her for that role 😉 She seldom has a good word to say regarding GoT and TBH I’m surprised GRRM still has anything to do with her. He must find it very embarrassing to hear or get feedback from other people who have complained about Linda’s vitriolic comments and insults.

      Certainly not a good ambassador to have on what was (and still is perhaps) the longest running website regarding ASOIAF and GoT matters 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    95. Marlana,

      Hahaha – Nice one 😀

      All you folks enjoy “Stormborn” which will rock n’roll in just over an hour. Thank god for B&W, BCog, etal who continue to tell the the story and to HBO who puts it on our TV’s.

      GRRM can blow it out his ass 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    96. Markus Stark,

      He’s the worst because he spends half of his time blogging, going to cons, working on side projects, editing, traveling, etc. etc…. then has the nerve to say “writing is slow” when his fans have been waiting for the book for 3 years at least……he knew GOT was going to catch up to the books and couldve made the effort but didn’t care enough. Insult to his fans and the reason he is as rich and famous as he is.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Cumsprite,

      My God, the immaturity of people here towards GRRM is amazing! Everything we enjoy concerning the tv show and commenting on this site is due to the world created by GRRM. I’m not thrilled to wait so long for the final two books either, but he’s an old man and an admittedly slow writer….it’ll get done when it’s done.

      All of you attacking Markus for defending GRRM need to calm down! That defense is no different when someone goes hard after D&D on this site.

        Quote  Reply

    98. I’m pretty excited to hear this. Count me among the skeptics that didn’t think we could possibly get Winds, Dream, all of his remaining planned Dunk and Egg novellas, and Fire and Blood before it’s too late. I know George doesn’t like fans expressing that, but there you go. Knowing that he already has so much of Fire and Blood written, though, even as he tries to focus on Winds, and that we’re this close to getting the first part of it, that’s great. I’ll be happy to have it.

      Though it makes me wonder if he’s decided to focus on this rather than any future Dunk and Egg stories. Assuming Volume II would be as detailed as I, that would be delving deep into the Aerys I/Maekar/Aegon V era, so much of what he might have planned on revealing in Dunk and Egg, details left vague in World, might end up here instead. And if he does still have time and ideas for future Dunk and Egg works, he can do that, too, since they tend to be traveling all over Westeros, far away from the larger dealings of the Targaryen goings on. Plus, it’s hard to imagine the entirety of an event like the Third Blackfyre Rebellion taking place in a single Dunk and Egg novella.

      tl;dr I’m happy that we’re getting this, rather than some future unseen date. Quite the pleasant surprise!

        Quote  Reply

    99. Markus Stark,

      (In Walder Frey’s voice) You talk about writing as if you’re an expert, but the one thing I remember you writing, you were owned in a comment section defending George Martin, the Mountain-Who-Doesn’t-Write.

        Quote  Reply

    100. It is absolutely disgraceful that some people here are not just criticising George, but mocking and deriding him. The man is a genius, and has written the best five novels that have ever been written, or ever will be. Furthermore, he cares so much about the story that he wants it to come naturally to him, so he doesn’t surgically plan it out like other hacks; he writes his poetry as it comes to him. Only a genius could write like this, and George has found an ingenious way of coming up with words. Instead of turning on his antique (because things were better in the old days) computer, and sitting down for a long day of writing, George has found that the best and most productive way to come up with new words for The Winds of Winter is to run both a cinema and an art gallery, travel around the world to various conventions reading chapters he wrote in his forties, and eating a tonne of pizza. The problem for George is that by the time he has finished doing all of that he is (understandably) quite tired, and wants a good sleep. Even a genius needs 12 hours+ sleep a night.

      When George finally gets a chance to do some writing, the first thing on his mind is the first thing on the mind of his fans: how great last night’s episode of Game of Thrones was. But the second thing on his mind is Neil Gaiman’s infamous retort. Therefore, he sits down, and…

      Well I could write a new chapter today from my new (and absolutely essential) POV Dolorous Edd, thought George, but I’m nobody’s bitch, so I’ll write something the fans are absolutely desperate for: a random Targaryen history. I’m positive that this will satiate my fans, I mean, why would they be irritated at all by this news. I literally can’t think of a single reason

      Good Luck George! I’m eagerly anticipating The Wind of Winter and am absolutely positive that it will be published before A Dream of Spring. There are a lot of sad people out there who try to demean you which is disappointing because you are the best thing since sliced bread. Anyway keep up the hard work, and I look forward to reading your unmissable opinions on the new football season (who needs TWOW when we get to read those gems).

        Quote  Reply

    101. Speaking of, ahem, no released date …

      I felt like laughing hysterically at reading the perfect way you typed this Petra, but I thought I might end up like Theon and jump ship after that.

      But then I read Martin’s words again and felt much better about Winds’ odds for next year. I think this time it will be different. Fingers crossed.

        Quote  Reply

    102. TormundsWoman,

      Martin is still “months away” from delivering TWOW and it looks as though the history book will be out first since it is “largely” complete. Yet here you are, optimistic as ever. God bless you. God bless you from your nose to your toes.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Cumsprite,

      After typing so about Feast & Dance, I wonder I am not mad at you! Don’t think I didn’t see how you said that you have the same output twice a day. I shook my head at that and said ugh! I read this whole thread. I just kept to myself what I think about SOME of the comments.

      Anyway, I always believed Cubs will win it all, you know. And they did. It just took a bit of time. Martin will do it too, you’ll see. He’s probably just re-writing a lot of Winds.

      I do fear he’ll let Elio and Linda write some of that history though. I hope not.

        Quote  Reply

    104. WallyFrench:
      Cumsprite,

      I feel sorry for you.Don’t worry kid, life always gets better.Cheer up, middle school doesn’t last forever.

      Oh…My…God…Cummy – how dare you challenge those self-indulgent, basement-dwelling neckbeards of this world??!! Phiie on you, you evil detractor you!!!

        Quote  Reply

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