There are two major pieces of season 7 information coming down the pipe today: one concerns a new location for this year, and the other, tucked safely below the cut, is a juicy plot spoiler concerning a meeting we’ll see next season.
One of the most intriguing Game of Thrones locations for next season is Italica, the Roman ruins found in Santiponce, Spain. CadenaSer has published new info today courtesy of Spanish officials confirming key dates and more for shooting.
It is now confirmed that Italica will be entirely closed to the public between October 17th and November 12th. During that time, GoT’s production crews will be finalizing preparations and then filming will take place. We can expect anywhere between 400 and 500 technical staff members involved in the behind the scenes work at Italica. It’s believed they’ll be shooting in the Amphitheatre (pictured above), and possibly the Cardo Maximus.
Now, about those spoilers.…
![20160603_ep610_Publicity_Still_042.00181531[1]](http://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/20160603_ep610_Publicity_Still_042.001815311-1024x576.jpg)
As we’ve discussed before, we have reason to believe that Italica will be playing the part of the Dragonpit in season 7. For the non-ASOIAF readers, the Dragonpit is more or less what it sounds like- a ruined, old building near King’s Landing that once housed dragons, for previous generations of Targaryens. We shared a report in August that Daenerys would be appearing at the Dragonpit in season 7.
Today, we received a spoiler update from a reliable source confirming that Daenerys will be at the Dragonpit, and that she’ll be meeting with several familiar characters there. In addition to Dany’s trusted allies such as Missandei, she’ll be meeting with characters from other storylines. And that’s where it gets really good. Our source tells us that Daenerys will have at least one scene where she’s speaking with Davos Seaworth and Brienne of Tarth.
What could that mean for the future of Westeros? Are they hammering out an alliance? We don’t have a context for the meeting yet. But loyal Stark advisers and possible messengers meeting with the Dragon Queen is incredibly promising.
OMG!!! Amazing!! I’m happy and sad at the same time that I spoiled myself with this news!
Hodor
(ahhh, I miss the lead for just a second) <- this is an edited comment one minute after posting my Hodor
Hodor!
Those three incredible women in a scene together?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Okay, this wait just became a lot more tenuous!
Wow! I expected for the Northern and Southern storylines to finally reconnect in some way, but I didn’t expect that! Davos and Brienne should be great ambassadors for Jon.
Squeeee!
(And Hodor)
I was hoping that Jon and Dany’s storylines would converge at Kingslanding by the end of this season. The show ending in 13-15 episodes is seeming increasingly plausible.
i am like suddenly super close to shipping Brienne and Dany and IDEK why.
OMFG IM SO HYPED
These spoilers are getting better and better, this season can’t come fast enough 🙂
Luka Nieto,
… and Sansa (for whatever that means), since Brienne is pledged to her.
Awwww I thought the surprising meeting was with Jon 🙁
Ice and Fire meeting at last will break the Internet.
Rhaenys Stark,
I guess that’s season 8 material.
Holy fuck this is good.I wonder if when Jon sends Davos and Brienne he knows she is his aunt?This way Brienne is in the south again she can meet Jaime if he is alive.Jon should have sent Sansa she is tight with Tyrion but I undestand she might not want to leave her home ever again.LF will have a field day with the two of them gone lol.
jdtargstark,
What?
Rhaenys Stark,
Who knows it might still happen in the finale.Dany can fly after all lol.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Jon is more of a general who happens to be a king, while Sansa is the true politician. Still, even if it’s Sansa’s idea (which I almost take for granted), if Davos and Brienne are going as ambassadors, they are there in the name of King Jon, surely, even if Brienne is personally sworn to Sansa.
jdtargstark,
Did I miss something?
Jon and dani meeting final ep of the season …calling it now
this has me sooo hyped!
OMG!!!! This is sooooo juicy!!! I think I am hyperventilating!!
Oooohhh interesting. Davos there representing Jon and Brienne representing Sansa??
OMG!!!! The Hype is real….
Rhaenys Stark,
Rhaenys Stark,
Baby steps 🙂
Rhaenys Stark,
Brienne represents Sansa or very hardly Jaime, not Jon. She is sworn only to Sansa.
I knew it! God I love Davos. If anyone can win Dany’s respect, it’s him. It would be interesting to know if Tyrion will be there.
Brienne and Davos going on a mission together is kind of amusing, since they didn’t exactly get along when they first met.
I can’t think of a better ambassador to meet with Daenerys on Jon’s behalf. Brienne has a tendency to be a bit snide at times and may say things that aren’t very respectful so hopefully she keeps her mouth shut.
I’m pretty sure Jon is in that scene too. I wouldn’t be surprised if Kit Harington suddenly gets spotted in Spain next month 🙂
I wonder what this means in the story. Should we expect a protracted siege of the Red Keep once Daenerys has already taken the rest of King’s Landing? Does this meeting take place during the battle, then? Or does this take place after Daenerys has taken it all, in the finale, probably? I wonder.
I mean, she wasn’t exactly subtle, was she? “HEY SORRY TO BARGE IN AND CONVENIENTLY INTERRUPT THE SHIREEN REVELATION UNTIL THE FINALE, BUT I KILLED YOUR KING. WITH THIS SWORD I HAVE UNSEATH AND NOW VIOLENTLY HOLD IN MY HAND.” It was hilarious. It was sad for Davos, but I love Brienne so much.
OH YEAH!!!!! Give me that good Jon and Dany alliance!! ???
This is crazy. I think I peed a little! I’ve been remaining calm so far, but this blew the lid on that!
Great to get some more evidence that Italica will indeed serve as the Dragonpit- but Jeez a month is a long time and with a huge crew. They must be shooting one helluva scene/s there.
Really intersting twist and opens up all sorts of possibilities.. I really never saw this coming at all…but at least it puts to bed the odd notion that the KITN will be travelling all over the 7Ks- when it’s clear he’ll be staying where he should be.
I hadn’t thought about that at first, but yeah, you’re right. Heh, ever since they diverted her off to the North in Season 5 they have to keep finding ways to send her back to her “real” plot.
Jenny,
Could you even imagine? A dragon touching down in Winterfell in the season finale? OMG.
So they’re meeting AT the Dragonpit WITH Daenerys…
So unless they move the location of said pit that means she’s IN King’s Landing. Along with that she’s in a position where Davos and Brienne not only are able to meet with her in KL but desire to do so.
Questions arise as to why she’d meet with them there… Is she not in control of the Red Keep? Does the Red Keep still exist? Is she simply showing them her dragons?
Luka Nieto,
True. Although It will be an awkward meeting: David and Brienne don’t get along. Davos was once an enemy to Tyrion. Sansa doesn’t trust Davos, so Brienne might have been sent also to inform her personally (maybe by LF’s suggestion). Brienne and Tyrion, I don’t remember them interacting when they were in KL… Will Brienne carry some message from Sansa to her “ex-husband”?
Oh, the possibilities!!
Sandy,
And leaving the safety of Winterfell? No way! That’s what ambassadors are for… ?
Wouldn’t it be fun if Brienne and Davos are there to answer her call for surrender with a no, or if they try to talk to her about the WW and she doesn’t care.
Just trying to think out of the box.
Will this season be so easy for the Starks and Dany?
Umm, I have to say “what and why?” Sansa is not some political genius some people suggest she is. She pretty much screwed up in all of her attempts last season. If I were Jon I wouldn’t entrust her with such a duty at this point.
Brienne could be there representing the Storm Lands on behalf of her father. There’s pretty much a power vacuum there. Or perhaps the Evenstar makes an appearance too.
Brienne is more than an extension of Sansa. She’s a highborn heir in her own right, not to mention her emotional ties to Jaime.
Jenny,
Yeah I can see their meeting be the final scene before the Wall collapses. I really wish they meet sooner though. The anticipation is killing meeeee
Holy shit! Excellent Spoiler!
Finally, Dany gets to KL! Been waiting years for that one!
With Brienne and Davos already in KL for that meeting, I assume Cersei won’t be in the picture anymore when that happens? It would be too much of a risk for them to go to KL if Cersei was still in charge, and try to talk with Dany if she was still in the middle of a War. This could happen by ep06 or 07.
There can’t be an alliance until Khaleesi has been properly berated by Lady Mormont.
Kargaryen,
It’s possible she retreats to the Rock (GRRM has said we’ll see it in the books, so maybe that’s her last stand).
It’s the most reasonable thing for a King to send ambassadors (esp such an effective and trusted one like Davos) to act on his behalf but cannot help but be worried about Jon sending his best advisor away on a mission with Littlefinger and Sansa still being around.
mickey,
For those who are interested in the so called redit “leaks”, though I would rather call them stupid speculations: there is a discussion on the forum http://watchersonthewall.com/topic/speculations-or-possible-spoilers-for-season-7/
OMG!!!! This is an incredible spoiler.
Who even needs a jetpack when you have 3 dragons at your disposal?
The legendary mediator and negotiator Ser Davos is back on the job. By the end of the conversation, Dany will be giving him a dragon to take back home.
Me too. And we may have to wait another 8-10 months. I hope it is ONLY 8.
I don’t want to see anyone posting in comments those so-called entire season leaks that float around every year. They usually turn out to be garbage. Even if it turns out to be legit, people do not come into this post or comment thread expecting an entire season’s worth of spoilers. For example, some of you are already posting UNCOVERED alleged spoilers from this guy, and that is not acceptable. Go start a post in the forums if you want to discuss that, please.
Delighted to see that Jon has chosen Davos – it was clear from the way he explained Stannis’s thinking and actions to Jon in season five and the way in which he negotiated the addition of the 62 Mormont men to their cause in season six, that he is a good diplomat (and that is what Jon needs). Brienne is an interesting addition – I can understand Sansa wanting someone loyal to her to be at any negotiations, and Brienne is high-born (unlike Davos) and Jon may think that Daenerys will perceive this as being important. I wonder when this scene takes place? It sounds like something for the second half of the season.
The filming schedule looks quite extensive – I cannot recall from seasons five and six how long the sequences for Daznak’s Pit and the Temple of the Dosh Khaleen took to film, but I think it was less than a fortnight. Could that indicate more than one scene takes place here?
It will be interesting to see who turns up in Spain for filming over the next few weeks – hopefully that will give us more information on what could happen/which alliances may form in season seven!!! The only downside to all this is having to remind myself just how long I am going to have to contain this hype!
Jenny,
Season 8 is gonna be about defeating the white walkers tho. Only 13 episodes left. A lot has to happen this season
Sue the Fury,
Sorry. Please feel free to delete whatever you need.
Inga,
Planning on it.
Sandy,
I doubt Sansa wants to see Tyrion again, I doubt she wants to leave the North and head South again where she knows she’s more vulnerable. I doubt she would even want Jon to head south. Sending Davos and Brienne makes sense. Davos, the explainer in chief and Brienne who might just impressed Dany a bit.
Wondering exactly the same. Why wouldn’t they meet in the Red Keep (presuming she now rules in KL), unless it has been burned down indeed.
WOW!! This is unexpected and totally awesome! If indeed this dragonpit is near KL in the show, this scene has to take place when Cersei is long gone from KL! 😀 So, I imagine towards the end of the season. When Winterfell politicking has taken a backseat, WWs are at the door, stories of dragons have been heard, and emissaries sent. I am extremely excited at the idea of Brienne and Daenerys meeting! EXTREMELY!
Preach it! Brienne’s entire purpose in life is NOT to be Sansa’s servant. It’s time for Brienne to shine in her own right.
for those of you questioning why Jon doesnt send Sansa to Dany ..
Kings dont normally send their ONLY sister (that they are aware of) to ask (beg) for help from someone they are not 100% sure about. Sansa will stay safe behind Winterfell’s walls as long as Jon has anything to say about it.
OMG you guys I think my head just exploded. AMAZING. Who better to negotiate with, well, anyone, than Davos?
I would imagine that this would be more or less at the end of the season to sort of setup the final battle with the white walkers in the final season. It also helps that
Morah Jorah,
She’ll give him a ride to Winterfell. Davos is that good of a negotiator.
Sandy,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but according to the info released by the show she’s Lady of Winterfell (at least until Bran shows up). And after she messed up with Lyanna Mormont and pissed off Lord Glover, I’d be more inclined to trust Davos with diplomacy and negotiations, if that is what is going to happen in that scene.
selena,
Exactly! Why would Sansa want to go back to the cesspool that is KL?
I think we all need to accept the fact that things are gonna move at breakneck speed this season-faster than we anticipated, with all that we’ve learned of the likely Stark reunion early in the season etc.
And in all honesty it has to so I’m not overly surprised- So Dany will likely be invading multiple Southern locations in the first half of the season, KL will fall around ep 5 leaving ep 6/7 for the parley with the North?
Will season 8 be exclusively on the North or will we have some storylines still to tie off there in S8? I’m inclined to think the latter. So perhaps Cersei does make it to S8 with Euwrong…
Littlefinger is going out of business. First, his brothel is gone. Now his jetpack empire is crumbling.
RIP Littlefinger
This spoiler is glorious
Where did Tarth fall in the Targ alliance thing? Were they Baratheon fans or Targ loyalists?
I can’t wait for Jon and Dany to hook up. RIP WotW servers….
Totally…and not long after Bran is back either
Romantically or not, I’m looking forward to see Emilia and Kit interaction on the show, they are really good friends in real life, so I expect them to have great chemistry on screen too.
Perhaps Brienne goes with Davos because Westeros is not the safest place to travel, and we know he’s not much of a fighter!
Get the fuck in!! This is brilliant!!
Flayed Potatoes,
Me too it’s going to be so hot lol.I also can’t wait for the cries going up.Oh no the tropes are swallowing us all.It’s just like all those other stories where aunt and nephew do it.So cliche.
Jenny,
Disney is all about aunts and nephews hooking up, amrite!1111!!11
I’ll be refreshing the reddit boards so much. No shame.
I agree. Davos is Jon’s most trusted adviser so it makes perfect sense he’d send him to talk to Queen Daenarys, but it might leave him vulnerable to the LF/Sansa plotting. Hopefully by then either Bran or Arya (or both!) are already in Winterfell to watch his back.
🙂
I don’t post on here very often, but I believe I mentioned the other day on another post that I felt Jon might send Davos down to a southern location for a possible political connection. I didn’t think, with the WW threat, that he would travel 3000 miles or however long it takes if he could send an ambassador. Also, it makes sense that Brienne is being sent as well on behalf of Sansa, who she pledged to. As we recall, in season 6 Sansa sent Brienne to River Run to meet with her great uncle the Blackfish. I am going to take another educated guess that neither Jon or Sansa will be leaving the north. I do hope Brienne and Jaime further their relationship but this is GOT so I am not hopeful.
RIP the Internet
It makes way more sense to send Davos and Brienne. They are loyal and trusted, they have proved themselves to be good negotiators/diplomats. They are the emissaries. Sansa is neither of those things. She’s not to be trusted, she sucks at diplomacy and she’s developing some power-hunger. What’s more, she’s the Lady of Winterfell, it’s not her job to be carrying out such tasks. Also, she’s still wanted for being an accessory to Joffrey’s murder and she spent years in KL being a captive. Why would she ever want to step foot anywhere near that place ever again? Would be too dangerous with Cersei being in power there. She’s now second to Jon when it comes to ruling the North as far as they know so she has to stay close. Jon would not risk her like that, especially after his line about them needing to stay together and him having to watch over her from last season. She just got back to Bolton-free Winterfell and is finally safe….until WWs come knocking that is. Why send her on her way and so soon?
Sansa going far south to treat with Daenerys would be nonsensical fanservice to give Sansa some cool moments/meetings. Just Sansa fans always wanting her at the centre of the plot’s affairs.
Luka Nieto,
This is is exactly why I disliked Jon and Sansa’s storyline being so intertwined last season. In the books Jon is a very competent negotiator. On the show, more or less as well. He was growing in that direction. But after season 6, fans automatically assume that making contact with Dany has to be Sansa’s idea. Can’t be Jon. Jon is not smart enough. Ugh. I don’t necessarily want Sansa to die but if her role is minimized in this now end-game, I’d be happy.
OK, here is my opinion.
4 weeks of preparation and filming + 4-5 hundred staff does not sound like a setup for peaceful negotiations. It sounds like a major action sequence and WOTW have also stated that to be an action sequence (but not a battle), right? So, that leaves us only one option: dragon demonstration with fights and deaths.
So, I’ll repeat my predictions. Dany will lose at least one dragon in the battle with Cersey and Euron; the dragon (IMO, it will be Drogon) will be brought to Qyburn either dead or dying; Qyburn will use the same “healing” method he used on the Mountain and create a zombie-dragon.
Meanwhile, Dany will survive the battle and go to Dragonstone: maybe, two smaller dragons will fly there scared and she will go after her children, or maybe Dragonstone will be the most convenient place to go. One way or another she will find there Jon mining dragonglass. They’ll get along and maybe discover something about their family’s true purpose (to repel the WW with dragons, when they come, for instance). Afterwards Dany will leave Jon her remaining army and dragons and go to KL to rescue Drogon. Jon will gain control over dragons through his Targarian blood or using the horn Sam discovered at the Fist of the First Men.
Dany will not be going to KL alone: Brienne and some other members of the northern crew like Sandor and Arya will form her support group. Davos will smuggle them into KL (he knows how to do it, it was established in S2).
In KL Cersey will be making a public demonstration of her zombie-dragon. Missandey and Jamie and many others will be served as lunch. Dany will be hiding in the crowd hoping that Drogon will sense her, but that won’t happen. Then Brienne will jump into the pit to save Jamie, thus uncovering Dany and the others. The situation will get tense, but it all will end in the public revolt. Cersei will either flee or get choked, the throne will be empty, but Drogon will break loose and fly north on its own (prediction based on the dragon’s shadow over KL). Dany will go after her baby leaving the empty throne behind her and go to the North just like in the vision she had at the HOTU. Simultaneously, the Wall will fall. That’s the finale.
In S8 Jon will repel the WW attack, Dany will join him in the North and they might have a short period of happiness. But Drogon will continue to be missing. They will learn that the magic Qyburn used to reanimate it (and Zombie-Mountain) was somehow related to the Night’s King and the hand on the wight LC Mormont sent to KL in S1. So, Dany and probably Jon will go beyond the wall to kill Drogon, and then Dany will die. Or they return victorious and then Dany is killed by jealous Daario emerging out of nowhere , or… they will live unhappily ever after up to the neck in the shit of petty politics and mutual quarrels and that would be the most satisfying unhappy ending I can imagine.
According to AWoIaF, Tarth has blood ties to both the Baratheon and Targaryen line. I don’t think we know that alliance during Robert’s Rebellion, but Robert didn’t strip Selwyn Tarth of his lands or titles and Selwyn seems pretty respected among the Storm Lords.
Geralt of Rivia,
Best comment I’ve read! Bravo!
I don’t disagree about Davos, who is clearly a skilled diplomat, but in what sense has Brienne proved to be a good diplomat/negotiator? Brienne on the show is a bull in a china shop (the book version isn’t a diplomat either, though in a different sense).
Maybe Yara is there too and will be eyeing Brienne just as lustily as Tormund did.
Gonna be a bit awkward if Tyrion is there too, after all Tyrion sort of indirectly/directly killed Davos’s son. If I remember correctly there is supposed to be a conflict in the dragonpit, wouldn’t be surprised if that’s one thing that’s brought up.
Brienne and Davos travelling to King’s Landing opens up a ton of new storyline possibilities:
– With Davos and Brienne travelling through the Riverlands there is a good chance that they bump into Melisandre again. Both of them have some unfinished business with her: Brienne knows that she helped Stannis kill Renly with her blood magic and Davos has threatened to kill her for the burning of Shireen if she ever returned. If there is anything that makes these two characters team up, it’s their hate for the Red Woman.
– Then there is the Gendry storyline… Remember, it was Davos who put him into that rowboat to get away from Melisandre. Someone has to pick that poor boy up to rejoin the story and apart from Arya Davos seems the best guess. Just image a meeting of all these characters in one place: Arya, Gendry, Davos, Brienne… and Melisandre, who has wronged them all one way or another!
[By the way… Gendry discovering that he had sex with a 400 year old woman would be hilarious 😀 ]
– The next thing is that it’s kind of weird for Dany to meet the Stark’s ambassadors in the ruins of the Dragonpit, which is in King’s Landing. If she has conquered the city and defeated the Lannisters, why doesn’t she meet up with them in the Red Keep. My guess is that her vision from the House of the Undying comes true: She reaches King’s Landing only to discover that Mad Queen Cercei has burned to whole place to the ground so that Dany can reign over the ashes. No city, no keep, no throne… that would explain why she chooses the Dragon Pit to hold court.
– My guess is that the final showdown with Cercei will be at Casterly Rock. Dany is already damn close to Westeros in the final scene of episode 6×10 and she needs something to do the whole season. Even if she landed in the Stormlands or Dorne first, she should be able to reach King’s Landing by midseason. I think that Cercei will hear of her arrival, order to burn the city down and escape to Casterly Rock, which will be besieged by the combined Stark and Targaryen forces in the season finale.
– As there is no mention of Tyrion being in the Dragonpit scene, I guess that Dany will split up her forces at the beginning of the season. Tyrion will be ordered to attack Casterly Rock from the seaside which is something Daario suggested in episode 6×10 (“Do you want the Second Sons to attack from the westcoast? If we take Casterly Rock, the Lannisters will have nowhere to run when you hit King’s Landing”). I guess that Tyrion’s naval force (including Yara+Theon) will encounter Euron on the way, which leads to the promised sea battle. Euron will capture Tyrion as a gift for his new ally Cercei, which brings us to a Lannister reunion at the end of the season – just in time for the big showdown, when Jon and Dany arrive to besiege the Rock.
– If Jaime is still loyal to Cercei at that point that would explain the foreshadowing from Riverrun last season where Brienne tells Jaime “[Should I fail to persuade the Blackfish to surrender, and if you attack the castle], honor compels me to fight for Sansa’s kin… To fight YOU”. Being in a situation where he has to choose between being loyal to Cercei (which means fighting Brienne and allowing Tyrion to be tortured and killed) or being loyal to Tyrion (and Brienne) will be the last straw to make him turn on his sister and become the Valonqar.
[As a little sidenote: Jon attacking Casterly Rock would also provide Arya and/or the Hound with an opportunity to fight the Mountain]
Flayed Potatoes,
You can’t mean it? You really want to see them in love?
TheKingWhoCares,
Wow, so much stuff to be excited about!
spacechampion,
Haha! That would be pretty amazing.
Don’t know why people think Sansa should be going, what politicking has she done? The way I see it Brienne has the same level as skill as she does. Brienne is probably just escorting Davos there anyway, to ensure his safety.
By the time Davos and Brienne meet Daenerys in this scene, I wonder how far along Jon’s parentage declaration has progressed (that he is a Targaryen and not a Stark), and how many of the people in the North survive if the WWs come pouring in?
Why would Daenerys send TYRION with an army against Casterly Rock, after she declared him her hand last season, and said that she needed his counsel and not his sword?
lucy,
Jon proved to be a great Lord Commander in many ways, but he didn’t navigate the politics in the best way. Not that there was a good way to do it, granted, but faced with the absolute hatred of wildlings in the Watch he could’ve done more than absolutely nothing. That said, he dealt with the wildlings marvelously, both in the books and in the show, with Tormund and then in Hardhome. Still, Sansa knows more about Southern-style politics anyway. So yes, I would expect Sansa to be more involved than Jon in a decision to make contact with Daenerys. That doesn’t make Jon dumb. It just makes him more concerned with actually running a country and rallying it against the threat up North. Is it unfair to say that Jon’s story as a leader is more focused on martial matters, while Sansa’s still growing political acumen stems from Machiavellian mentors such as Littlefinger? I don’t think so. Sansa is not weak just because she isn’t a warrior like Jon or Arya; Likewise, Jon isn’t dumb just because he isn’t a modern politician like Sansa is learning to be.
And I don’t think season six showed Jon being dumb to prop up Sansa. That’s silly. Sansa simply warned Jon that Ramsay would try to emotionally manipulate him, which he did, but as Jon pointed out that wasn’t much of a practical piece of advice. Of course Jon fucked up his battle plans. His brother had just died. That doesn’t make him dumb. It makes him flawed. It makes him human. Sansa is flawed and human too, but knowing Ramsay she had already accepted that Rickon was either dead or as good as dead.
Emilia in Belfast, well, the guy with her is from there so I’m assuming that’s where the photo was taken. Thats over 3 weeks (in a row) of filming for her in NI.
https://twitter.com/magazinebrian/status/786696748458708994
Kay,
Because he is the only one in her entourage who knows the place. Casterly Rock is known to be impregnable, so it is very useful to have somebody counseling your army who grew up in that castle, knows it’s weaknesses and was even tasked by Tywin with taking care of it’s drains, which could be used as a secret entrance.
holy shit, is this real or dream?
The Villain is always triumphant in the Penultimate season. Aren’t they Daenerys?
Kay,
He’s a Targaeyan AND a Stark
Aahhh! I can’t stop reading spoilers!!
But I’m glad I read this one. I think we have a meeting in KL, and I’m guessing it is probably after Cersei is either dead or gone. If she has something important to do — plot-wise — at the Rock, she’ll retreat there alive.
I think both Jon’s and Sansa’s stories are in the North, at least for S7. If they hear of dragons landing in KL, Jon would send the Dream Team (Bri & Davos) go to ask Dany for a dragon or three to help flambée some ice zombies. Can’t wait for the (inevitable) meeting of Jon and Dany… it’ll be a pinnacle, a series-defining moment!
I also hope Tyrion goes North, and reconnects with his 2 fave Starks. But that might be fan fic on my part :O
You know something, Jon Snow,
3 fave Starks! Don’t forget he designed a saddle for Bran 🙂
Half of the theories here are completely off the rails, but entertaining.
Jorah will obviously save the day. Again.
Geralt of Rivia,
https://media.giphy.com/media/sMmT8PDxfyiE8/giphy.gif
so the north is begging Dany to save their asses but where is Jon Snow?
Sean C.,
maybe she went along as his “bodyguard”. he admitted he’s not a fighting man
Awwww….of course! Tyrion sure does love that Stark family 😀
So.. speculating.. so it’s not spoilers..
Dany lands in Westeros close to King’s Landing. Hell, KL and the Iron Throne was always the goal. Cersei either dies or flees to Casterly Rock. The North prepares for the white walkers and Littlefinger pushes the ladder too far and meets his end.
Season 7 ends with Davos and Brienne appealing with Daenerys for help, and she is reluctant because A) it’s a stark seeking help, and B) the Iron Throne was always her end goal, now someone she doesn’t know is telling her there is much much worse out there.
GoT really has been hammering “the real war” in the last two seasons, that being against the living and the dead.
Final season includes defeat of the White Walkers, and while Dany is away Cersei and the Lannister army re-take Kings Landing while Dany goes North to save everyone. Once defeated the army of the dead, Dany + The North lick their wounds, and ride South alongside the Dornish and Tyrell army’s from the south to once and for all destroy the Lannisters and bring peace to Westeros.
I’d be happy with that outcome. Cersei may be a crazy b***h but she’s not stupid. If 3 grown dragons, unsullied army, and an army of Dothraki are barrelling towards your splintered force, then she’d get out and attack when it suits her.
I find it really unlikely Dany will just land, Cersei will die, and then the story will move on within 5 episodes. That would be an insult to Cersei’s story and character. I’ve always liked the Romeo/Juliette theory of Cersei and Jamie and for it to just abruptly end with her defeat now that her descent into madness like the Mad King can finally begin.
maeve,
Littlefinger is probably going to go back to the vale. Lord royce was spotted filming a few days ago.
Sansa and jon will stay in the north and probably deal with some of the northern families, like the karstarks and umbers.
I can’t wait till dany and davos and brienne meet. Anything that gets dany even a little closer to jon is making me squeal with joy and excitement.
Lord Royce was in Winterfell season 6 ep 10.
Where is Jon Snow? shouldn’t he personally come and bend knee ? or is he coming after Dany accepts
Good point about Tyrion mentioning he was in charge of the sewers at CR. So he could go to show them the CR layout. If this happens, and if indeed Cersei burns down the Red Keep and retreats to CR and Tyrion goes after her, I can see Tyrion being the one to finally choke her at the end (I lean much more towards him being the valonqar than Jaime, which is the popular opinion around here). Since there was an earlier post about a skirmish and two Lannisters meeting, could that be at CR and towards the end of the season?
One could argue the entire series has been leading up to the Jon/Dany meeting. This scene is setting the stage for it. I’m guessing they will meet in the season finale. Dragging that out an additional year to season 8 seems pointless.
Luka Nieto,
Sansa is gonna die very soon, surely eaten by the same dogs she set agains her hubby.
While Davos and Brienne are away Jonsa will play
Tar Gary-en,
If by dog you mean wolf and by wolf u mean Jon then yes, but a different kind of death and a different kind of eaten too 😉
L7R is saying
Oh and that a Greyjoy is going North!
Edith,
Where did they mention
It’s probably going to be Theon imo.
Edith,
Exciting!!!
Also, the Greyjoy going North has to be Theon, coming full circle!
Why so many people assume Dany won’t trust or believe in Davos/Brienne because they were sent by the Starks or will be pissed at Jon because he’s KITN?
These people seem to forget how fine she was with Tyrion even though his brother killed her father and how she dealt with the greyjoys when they asked for their independence.
She’s not becoming the villain. She’ll unite with the others and ofc that includes Jon. That’s the only way they’ll have a chance against the WW.
Davos going to met Dany is a nice choice but this will leave Jon exposed to LF schemes. Tormund will take care of wildlings, Lady Lyanna got her own house to rule.
Flayed Potatoes,
In the comments. Javi mentions
Edith,
Theon
Daenerys, Davos, Brienne and for sure Tyrion and maybe Varys or someone else?
I hope it’s not EURON
Jon is a not a Targaryen. Half Stark and half Targ by blood, by name most likely a bastard Snow, Sand, Waters. Depends how you see it if he takes a name by the place he grew up and his mother was from, he s born or where is father. But it really doesn’t matter as Jon is earning things based on his actions and not a name. What matter is that he has Targ blood for prophecy or riding a dragon.
Euron is
Jon isnt paying homage to Dany..he is sending Davos to make an alliance with her..as one ruler to another.
Hmm, so now we have a
Where Tyrion will be waiting for her, having been sent on a side quest by Dany to put his encyclopedic knowledge of the drainage system to good use by leading a sewer SWAT team to infiltrate. Jorah and Grey Worm both have experience at this sort of thing.
I wonder if Jaime’s nightmares from the books about being imprisoned in the bowels of Casterly Rock will come into play in any literal way.
Iam starting to believe the all out battle of dany vs cersei and fall of KL is going to be a lot early than most people assume..maybe around episode 5 .
Sam and jorah can both be there when dany meets them.
Just wait till the photographer who took kit Maisie and Bella to release pictures of Emilia’s,Peter,Nathalie and probably ian glen ..
Most of this theories are plain ridiculous which doesn’t have any understanding of all the characters or the storylines and just a wishful thinking of how they like to see ..
Why would they hold this meeting at the Dragonpit though? Even if the Red Keep is destroyed, this seems like a strange location to talk to an envoy from the North. There must be something more going on here.
I wish he would have bloody drowned tbh. I don’t care for the character at all. Would be fine by me if they just used him as plot device to get Yara and Theon to join Dany and Co. Unfortunately this is just wishful thinking on my part.
Sandy,
I’m excited for a Dany and Davis meeting too, he may know more history about her family from all the books of shireen had of them then Dany does. I imagine though he’ll be sad Shireen never got to meet her considering how much she loved Targaryen’s
Davos and Brienne are actual southerners – they know the land, the lords, and the people much better than Sansa, who spent all her time in the Red Keep. Just about all the people Sansa interacted (she had no true allies/friends) with are dead and the few who are left don’t have the highest opinion of her. Not only is she is still a wanted criminal but after 6 years she has finally regained her home, why would she ever want to go back to KL or travel back south. She will stay in WF or in the North.
…unless of course the writers need her to do or travel somewhere that makes absolutely no sense given the character’s history, but you know, the story needs her to (marriage to Bolton).
So really anything is possible, all speculations are possible, trying to make sense and use logic will only take you so far – the story is quickly coming to an end and I have a feeling that many things are going to happen that probably won’t make complete sense, but the story will demand that it does and we just can’t think too much about it. The last couple of years have proven that – so I will turn logic-brain off and just enjoy the delicious madness to come.
This was precisely my thought process after reading those supposed leaks someone linked to earlier in the comments.
Kargaryen,
I think more likely the issue Dany will have is not believing them since neither of them has actually seen a whitewalker and they only know about it because a former lord commander saw them with the wildlings was stabbed to death, brought back to life, quit the nights watch and became leader of the north. Just saying that to someone may seem a bit unbelievable, Dany might need a bit more proof before she believes it than just their word.
I have said it since last season..
would Gwen be considered top level? if so then Emilla/Peter/Liam/Gwen/Colin is pretty good guess..maybe NCW instead of Colin? makes no sense for to be Kit or Sophie..and Adrian would have to be with them for LF shenanigans..
wild guess is Clarice..would be a twist to see Davos/Brienne/Mel working together after last season
Mel,
Dany have seen so many magic and she is herself did magical thing, i think its easy to convince her WW existence
If a spoiler has not been mentioned in the post above, everyone has to keep it (and references to it) completely covered by spoiler coding.
That means if you’re bringing info from elsewhere, please do not discuss it openly here without warning. Have consideration for your fellow viewers, please.
selena,
When I think about it. You make a good sense ín this. Good point on Theon.
Sandy,
Again, I have to say What!? Seriously, has she proven to have learned ANYTHING from her time in KL that says she’s better equipped than Davos? Not only has the show changed her storyline to give Sansa more to do, they’ve pretty much shown her to have no idea how to deal with people diplomatically. She didn’t do anything during her time in KL that says she can handle political situations. She was used and abused and ushered away secretly when shit went down that she was completely unaware of. In neither medium has she shown she’s ready to take on the big dogs in the game… yet.
During earlier reports about the dragonpit, I was wondering if a dragon is injured and Daenerys keeps him there to recuperate. But now with all of this news of her actually meeting envoys there, I wonder if she will come to use the dragonpit as a suitable place to pitch tents and camp out, Dothraki style, especially if the Red Keep is burnt to a crisp! So this could become her “residence” while in KL, with her hordes of “bloodriders” all around her……… 😀
selena,
Though frankly, sending Theon to Winterfell as an envoy is a terrible idea.
Let’s say Jon will give up his King in the North title, independency of the North in exchange for Dan’s help against zombies. That means no need for marriage, right? She gains nothing and they made a point with political marriage.
Geralt of Rivia,
If Jon were to agree to surrender the North’s sovereignty, marriage to Dany would probably be necessary to facilitate that, even if it was to fight a bigger threat. He’d be making a pretty big climbdown in front of his nobles.
selena,
lol what ruler to ruler,he isn’t her equal she is like 1000 times stronger than him and she has so many kingdoms and claims to be the queen of 7 kindgom, he is bending the knee unless he wants to die along with his tiny army
Hype train just keeps on getting faster. Man, I’m so ready for this season already!!
When you think about it both aegon’s and rhaenys hill will be blown by wildfire and aerys would have no reason to keep caches in the dragonpit because no one lives there ..
So its possible the only thing that will survive the wildfire in KL is dragonpit and dany uses it as a base ..
orange,
I love every year how there comes one with the leaks of whole season and when season airs not even half they get right In it..
Mel,
If anyone who id going to believe in WW its going to be dany because she has seen many magic and she herself is capable of magic
If Jon sends Davos to speak with daenerys, it’s because he already heard about the dragons and he knows they need her. But he will have troubles with that, because she’s aerys’s daughter and rhaegar’s sister. A lot of people died because of them. Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon. I don’t think the lords of the North will like that very much. This can fit with those things d&d said about jon being selfish on his ruling. Idk, i’m guessing.
Jon will bend the knee,Jon will beg her,Jon will ask her to marry him.
I think people are going way to far…
If Dany had KL wouldnt she sit in the iron throne?
I am 99% sure the story isnt the restore of the Targaryans and the win of incest. Martin had spend so much time telling us incest is wrong and Targaryans arent the right family on the throne. I mean why people are so upset with Jaime and Cersei if incest and burning people is good for Jon?
Either way a simple negogation wouldnt need so many days and extras, i am still hoping the show will not leave the thing that made it succesful,that good and evil are relevant and every side of a battle has both. In any case i really want some more spoilers
Inga,
Interesting is that Dany always dies in your theory…
Perhaps they all will die by the end of season 8!
The absences of Tyrion and Greyworm are telling.
Tyrion is her Hand and Greyworm is commander of her Queensguard. For me, this means they might be tasked into taking Casterly Rock- Cersei fleeing is a possibility. And that the Greyjoy not captured is going after Euron. Davos and Brienne could be in a stealth mission here, like Catlyn did visiting Renly.
The war might not be over at this point, but both Jon and Dany´s parties already realized they need each other.
Since Missandei is with Dany, I assume it is not a siege or a mission to retrieve Drogon; the site states it is a meeting between two parties, not unified group with one goal. Missandei is not a general, if this is a siege or an attack, then Greyworm would be mentioned, right?
Maggie,
Or to inform her that her nephew and king neeeds her dragons
Interesting.
I will be a bit disappointed if Jon and Dany don’t meet by the end of the season. Here’s hoping they do.
At this stage of the game, Davos’ priority seems to be the War with the Dead.
My two cents is that they’ve been sent by Jon and Sansa to treat with Daenerys and they may make a deal. She agrees to help Jon fight the (un)dead in return for his support of her claim to the Iron Throne.
How exciting!
Sean C.,
He gives up power and marries her? Why? What she gains besides those curls? Without his power over nobles in the North which he would likely lose by this act. marriage in this instance doesn’t make sense. She would achieve what she wants this without marriage.
So I was watching blackish and it was nice to see a game of thrones reference in it ..
Regarding Jon and dany ..People so are conflicted at this one day they want them together and then another day they don’t. .why not let’s wait and see how it plays out ..just because two main characters fall in love or marry doesn’t equal to Disney and cliche ..As long as story progressed naturally and characters doesn’t go out of character then all is fair game
dragonbringer,
Ask yourself the question. Does she really need him? He will most likely bend the knee like Torrhen did with Aegon (which you would like) and then basically eliminating last threat to her. Uniting 7 kingdoms under one rule. She doesn’t even have to marry. Jon would never be any help with iron throne even if married nor would he want to sit there. He bends the knee, she helps them and everybody wins.
Why does anyone think Brienne could be some kind of ambassador to Sansa? Why should a Northern girl without any major political or military importance send an own ambassador separate from the one who represents the King in the North? Even if she should be accepted as Lady of Winterfell in the meantime, there would be no reason for that at all (I doubt the houses Manderly, Glover or Cerwyn would send own representatives to such a meeting).
The only theoretical reason for Brienne being kind of a representative of Sansa at that meeting would be if Sansa had become Lady of the Vale in the meantime… besides, Brienne and Davos could very well be there as captives, not as envoys sent to discuss political / military strategies.
But my guess is that Sansa at this moment of the story is dead and buried, so Brienne is no longer pledged to her…
And besides, another important topic to discuss between Davos, Brienne and Dany could be the role of the red priestesses and the Lord of Light – we know they support Dany’s return, but Davos and Brienne could have a lot to tell about their own experiences…
P.S.: I imagine Sansa being at the meeting with Dany and “forgetting” to tell her that an army of the dead is moving south 😉
1) The only way this meeting could make me happy is if it happens on Davos’s request in order to organize the fight against the Others. Anything else seems to me like terrible story-writing.
2) You all need to calm down with all those “marriage”, “hook up” hopes. This is a story of humanity fighting mad ice elves leading an army of zombies, not a romance. And neither Dany nor Jon need to get married to gain more power or to be convinced of the White Walkers’ threat.
No meeting is surprising, none!!! Considering how few characters are still alive and that Dany left Essos, I’m assuming most of the characters will indeed meet this season…. so what???
What is news to me (probably not to everyone else) is that Dany is at the dragonpits… that means that she’s conquering King’s Landing, right??? And it’s not destroyed :).
Geralt of Rivia,
No I never want him to bend the knee..
Both of them have proved that they see the bigger picture and put their people first
What I will think happen is that Jon and dany will learn about each other and come to admire and respect others …both will know what the other is to offer and their values ..he doesn’t have to bend the knee they can enter into the same alliance like dany did with yara and marriage or romance can happen along the way if it was supposed to happen..
And Jon by doing this doesn’t have anything to lose but gain everything ..he will become king of Westeros..
I never understood the need for north to stay independent …
It made sense when they went against lannisters …but if you are going to fight a threat like WW then better thing to do is stay united …but of course its fans who want this more than the characters so let’s see how they will react to dany …if it’s independent people want then they can face the threat alone and see how they fare ..
They bowed to dragons once and they will not hesitate doing that again now especially when they are most needed..
But when it comes to opposition dany is way too powerful and strong ..so i wish people stop overestimating his power or sugarcoating the fact that its Jon who needs dany and not other way around ..
Bran’s built-in White Walker GPS,
I agree with this posters comments. I’ve read the books and watched all the seasons. I try to base any speculation on the facts and draw conclusions from them. Although Martin does write some romance, the story itself is not a romance story. Martin also has shown through his writing style his beliefs that any healthy lasting relationships (Catlyn, Ned for example) are those that grow over time. I would also like to include Brienne and Jaime in this category. He has also stated that the fire is Dany and the ice is the white walkers. Since the Targs are conqueror’s by nature, I believe her ultimate purpose is to conquer the whites. At this point she believes it is her divine right to sit on that iron chair. The characters who have many point of view chapters, and I include Theon in this group, are going through all this suffering for a reason. This is how they learn and grow. They have a purpose in George’s endgame, which is why he spends so much time developing their arc. Whether you hate a character or not, George doesn’t care. He will write things his way in the end. It’s also important to note how Rob Stark and Rikkon are the 2 Starks who never have point of view chapters. Again, these are subtle clues and could mean nothing, but George’s writing style isn’t always what is obvious to us.
Holy shit
Or should i say Holy balls…i have a strong feeling that there will be a Jon and Dany alliance this season.
One of my many questions is- where is Jaime in all of this?
If he (presumably) survives the Valonquar exchange I imagine that the dynamics between him and Dany will be very interesting- especially with Tyrion in the mix.
Would he be executed for killing Aerys, kept prisoner or spared if he offs Cersei and saves the city again?
Could he be part of this exchange, bringing him and Brienne back together as allies, adversaries or as some form of split loyalty dilemma for either of the two?
I actually don’t see him as an endgame character (how can a one-handed warrior be of any use after all unless they fashion him a valyrian steel hook) just putting these out here…looking forward to the weird and wonderful theories this leak will generate 🙂
Rhaenys Stark,
Jon is not ‘Ice’
Night King and white walkers etc. are ‘Ice’, thought this had been pretty much confirmed by G.R.R Martin
Apollo,
Maybe he will get a shield attached with sword like the one Agron in Spartacus got after he was crucified ..
But i do think he will die as valanqor killonh cersei buy failing to protect the city…however Iam starting to think euron may kill Jamie in order to remove a threat..
Ben,
GRRM was talking of storylines, not characters. He meant that Dany and her dragons represented the fire storyline and everything to do with the WWs represented the ice storyline. Jon (and Bran), the Wall and the Night’s Watch are all part of this storyline.
In previous interviews, he has mentioned that the title could have multiple meanings and is open to interpretation.
Apollo,
Jaime’s dream in the books where he and Brienne fight with flaming swords, always made me think that both of them will have some part to play in the WW storyline.
I have read all the comments here, and maybe %80-90 of all people say that based on spoilers so far, next season Daenerys will win over Cersei and Euron and capture KL, Daenerys and Jon will meet and ally or marry, and they will start fighting against WW, while all the Starks unite in Winterfell during the season, Littlefinger’s plans are ruined and he dies, just as Cersei dies etc. etc.
So far almost all major actors commented that next season will be shocking, there are surprises people don’t expect, it will be heartbreaking, and Maisie Williams said that nothing would prepare us for it, Kit said it will get very dark, Emilia Clarke said it’s ridiculous etc.
What is shocking, surprising, heartbreaking, impossible to be prepared etc. for most people if Starks reunite, Daenerys conquers KL, Dany and Jon meet/ally/marry etc., and all the annoying characters just lose and everybody starts fighting against WW? This is the most cliche scenario, what would be shocking and surprising about it? Personally I don’t expect things to develop this way at all.
Flayed Potatoes,
actually she is the lady of the dreadfull, she was the wife of Ramsay Bolton… by law the castle and lands of the Bolton’s are now hers…. not Winterfell, in the Books is another history…
Charlie Stark,
she can have them
Just make Bran Lord of Winterfell when he returns.
Quite a bit of what George writes is actually open to interpretation. That is the fun in reading the books. Throw in a few red herrings an d it really becomes confusing. Some other forums have some very interesting theories and they are worth a look. I didn’t even think about how some theories, such as the dragon has 3 heads, mean something that isn’t so obvious. My 1st thought was that there were 2 hidden targaryens who will be dragon riders along with Dany. The more time that went on, the more I started to questions something so obvious. Some of these theories might be the way GRRM might go.
Green Chili,
She may not be representing Sansa in her own right as her “ambassador”. According to this report, Daenerys has a scene with both Davos and Brienne.
There is scope to suggest that she is meeting the two of them together.
If so, Davos and Brienne are on the same page and by default, so are Jon and Sansa. So Davos and Brienne would not be representing different interests in that respect.
In any case, why shouldn’t Sansa have Brienne represent her interests? She is Ned Stark’s true born heir. She is still an important and worthy character in her own right. Would Jon be so arrogant as to dismiss her as a young girl with no political experience (which I don’t agree with btw) and of no importance but a potential marriage vassal? Or would he see them both as a team? Judging by what we know of Jon Snow, I’d be inclined to opt for the latter.
Priscila,
I agree with your comment.
Also, there seems to be a general consensus amongst many fans that Dany will HAVE to have conquered King’s Landing and taken down Cersei in season 7.
While I am not saying that this will not happen in this way, the plotline does not HAVE to evolve in this way.
For instance, Dany could land in Westeros, only to be diverted north. She could be asked by Davos and Brienne to ally with Jon – her dragons to defeat White Walkers in return for his support to help her re-claim the Iron Throne, which could leave two ongoing wars on two fronts spanning the next two seasons, rather than have each of the next two seasons focus almost exculsively on two separate battles.
If this is the format the show follows (and given the HotU scene in season 2 and these latest reports, I wouldn’t be too surprised), I for one, think it will make for a more interesting endgame.
Flayed Potatoes,
I dont Think Bran wants to be the Lord anymore he is the Three eye Raven now… the title would be pass to Arya in that case… will see 🙂
With regards to Brienne accompanying Davos, my guess is that she’s there to serve partly as protection for Ser Davos and (more importantly) to demonstrate the alignment of the remaining houses, how vital this alignment has been and will be in the wars to come. Remember- Brienne was Kingsguard to Renly Baratheon, she killed Stannis (Davos’ liege lord and king), but yet they will presumably put their differences behind them to face the greater threat. Not only that- she smuggled Jaime out of Robbs camp, delivered him to KL and in essence was the most wanted woman in the North, but yet is now travelling under Jon’s banners. This will be crucial I believe in demonstrating just how serious this war is, and Tyrion (if he’s present) will realise this immediately. No zombie prisoners, CERTAINLY no zombie dragons will be required.
In the run up to this exchange- I’m counting on some GREAT scenes between Gwendoline and Liam earlier in the season as they journey south, beginning with a grudging alliance to forming a deep bond of friendship (echoing her arc with Jaime in S3). Who knows- they may even cross paths with TBWOB, the Hound, Melisandre, LSH (joking!!)
Apocalyptic queen</st
Apocalyptic queen,
Your post makes so much sense. I look on other forums as well for theories and I have found some very interesting ones that I never would have thought of. These theories aren’t based on wishful thinking and they come straight from the source material. That is why these books are worth another read in my opinion. I originally believed the “dragon has 3 heads’ was simply 2 other hidden targaryens will emerge and the 3 targs will save the day riding the 3 dragons. All though that can very well be true, there are some credible theories out there that compel me to consider other possibilities.
How did they know about Dany heading to KL up in the North? My guess is Littlefinger. He was the one who informs Jon and co. Like the information he gave Sansa about Riverrun. Same as to Sansa’s whereabouts to Cersei, and many more to everyone else.
showLF always gives information as gift to everyone. He always gives people what they need or want. His gift to Jon in announcing the whitewalker problem to the world… are Dragons.
His character’s description in the the book was after all, ‘everyone’s friend’ which is the perfect conjunction to ‘always keep your foes confused’
It may look like his plans are crumbling. But he’s the kind that says the past is gone for good. His previous machinations may already served its purpose. I expect something big from him in S7 and death is last on the list.
I’d say Bran will tell them. LFs network is already crumbling…especially if KL falls in a pile of ashes.
Ashley,
By way of Jaimy, but don’t forget about by way of Podrick 😉
innocence,
Well, in the process of these “predictable” events happening, the North could get overrun by White Walkers, characters we’ve been with for a long time could die, and strange alliances could be formed.
innocence,
I agree with your point- there’s not gonna be any happy ever after in this story. Even the Stark reunion will undoubtedly be blighted by some tragedy.
I fully expect to see utter devastation in the North, beloved characters becoming wights and then killing other beloved characters (let’s face it- we have a LOT of em up North now), Kings freezing in their castles, mothers smothering their children as their tears freeze on their cheeks. All of that stuff that we’ve been promised.
Having one big battle for the dawn in S8 ep5 with Dany riding North to save the day on her dragons (which btw would take all of ten mins where Dragons are concerned) would just be cheesy and lame- and would shortchange the story, the show and the viewers.
What’s unclear is when all this will happen- as the earlier than speculated Stark reunion could expedite the fall of the Wall. Saying that- that doesn’t mean the WWs will immediately mount some sort of imminent blitzkrieg…
Tormund: “You spend too much time with us Jon Snow. You can never be a kneeler again.” Season 4 ep 10.
Jon hasn’t knelt to anyone else again since (he’d already knelt to Stannis out of respect). I think that is a hint that he won’t kneel to Dany.
Some up thread mentioned that ASOIAF was not about romance but about the fight against the Others, this is partly true. While the War for Dawn is an important element of the story, the most important element of the story is connection between characters and the internal struggle faced by our protagonist.
“The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives” is about coming together, putting aside your differences, about learning and growing. A romance or a political marriage falls right into this. GRRM is not adverse to romance and love, he just likes to show a more realistic version of it. It’s not sunshine and rainbows, it’s hard and you have to work at it. It doesn’t always work out but sometimes it does.
If you don’t want to read or watch a story about the human connection than I think you’ve been wasting your time. Because this is what ASOAIF/GoT is all about. At least that is what it seems to me.
On another note, can we please stop with the phobia for the predictable. While I’m sure there will be many surprises in the next two seasons, we are technically at the end of this series, the foundation has been laid down and the structure has almost been completed. We should be able to know the broad outlines of what will happen, they have given us the information for it. Whether our conclusions are right or wrong is a different matter. But GRRM is not a hack writer he not going to twist things for twist sake.
I am still of the opinion that they will film seasons 7 and 8 at the same time as it makes economical sense. Cost of 10 v cost of 13 at the same time is minimal. But doing 7 and then 6 a year later doubles the cost. And the excuse of oh we need longer to shoot and delayed premeir for “snow” is the the type of misdirecting lie we are all familiar with by now.
Plus it frees everyone up early and allows D&D to go off and do that cop show or whateverdafuck they were talkin about next year. Finish 7, deliver to HBO in May, go finish editing/cgi for the last 6 by August, deliver to HBO, drop mic, leave, done by end of summer of 2017.
Thus, all these “oh this happens in season 7” stuff I am taking with a grain of salt. This scene could be for ep 8×6 where Dany is saying thanks and goodbye to them for all we know (with the obligatory next shot of Brienne and Tormund on the bow of a ship heading to Tarth, with Celine Dion’s voice blasting…lol)
I could be wrong but if they aren’t doing it this way, an accountant or two at HBO should be swinging from a tree somewhere.
Who says they’re absent? According to the spoiler, Dany is with “trusted allies, such as Missandei.” Tyrion and Grey Worm are likely present (assuming they live long enough in Season 7 to make it to that point, of course).
dragonbringer,
Indeed.
The very fact that Jon broke tradition and risked the wrath of all of the Seven Kingdoms in order to save thousands of innocent Wildlings makes him Daenerys’ kind of person.
I also think that if Sam ends up in Daenerys’ company at any point, as I suspect he might, then he will tell her how Jon protected and supported the weakest members of the Night’s Watch.
He could also convey how Maester Aemon and Jeor Mormont, two people whose opinions she would probably respect through association alone, both saw Jon’s potential.
Not to mention that she has Varys, who was a fan of Ned Stark, and Tyrion, who likes Jon and Sansa, as her advisers.
And that’s before we even get on to the fact that they’re related.
I think any attempts to manufacture conflict between Daenerys and Jon will feel tenuous.
But I won’t entirely rule it out as a possibility. The thought of Brienne and Davos meeting Daenerys at the dragon pit for scenes that will involve hundreds of crew members does make me a little nervous.
I just checked L7R. Javi’s comment seems to have changed?
It now says he won’t say which Greyjoy meets Jon. Atleast that’s what my google translate is saying. Did he change it from North to Jon?
First, let me say what AWESOME spoilers!! Could have knocked me down with a feather when I read this! I believe that Davos and Brienne are there to parlay with Dany to get her help with the WW. Either the Red Keep is in ruins or it’s just before the battle for KL. I’m going to hazard a guess and say the Red Keep is ruined and Cersei is either dead or on the run.
As to what I consider “out there” theories that Jon and Dany are going to become an item not gonna happen people. The KITN has his hands full with the war to come. My biggest worry coincides with what someone else here voiced also…if Davos and Brienne are with Dany that leaves Jon with LF and Sansa. Just hoping that by the time this happens LF is long gone from WF.
Great work by WOTW crew! Thanks so much Sue and Company!
I don’t get the whole Euron hype. Aegon conquered Westeros with NO allies, about 1500 soldiers, and 3 dragons. Dany has 3 dragons, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, Dorne, Highgarden (largest army in Westeros,) and a good chunk of the Iron Borne. Please explain to me how the %^&* could him and Cersei be a match for that?
Brienne and Davos travelling to King’s Landing opens up a ton of new storyline possibilities:
– With Davos and Brienne travelling through the Riverlands there is a good chance that they bump into Melisandre again. Both of them have some unfinished business with her: Brienne knows that she helped Stannis kill Renly with her blood magic and Davos has threatened to kill her for the burning of Shireen if she ever returned. If there is anything that makes these two characters team up, it’s their hate for the Red Woman.
– Then there is the Gendry storyline… Remember, it was Davos who put him into that rowboat to get away from Melisandre. Someone has to pick that poor boy up to rejoin the story and apart from Arya Davos seems a good guess. Just image a meeting of all these characters in one place: Arya, Gendry, Davos, Brienne… and Melisandre, who has wronged them all one way or another. And by the way, Gendry discovering that he had sex with a 400 year old woman would be hilarious 😀
– The next thing is that it’s kind of weird for Dany to meet the Stark’s ambassadors in the ruins of the Dragonpit, which is in King’s Landing. If she has conquered the city and defeated the Lannisters, why doesn’t she meet up with them in the Red Keep. My guess is that her vision from the House of the Undying comes true: She reaches King’s Landing only to discover that Mad Queen Cercei has burned to whole place to the ground so that Dany can reign over the ashes. No city, no keep, no throne… that would explain why she chooses the Dragon Pit to hold court.
– My guess is that the final showdown with Cercei will be at Casterly Rock. Dany is already damn close to Westeros in the final scene of episode 6×10 and she needs something to do the whole season. Even if she landed in the Stormlands or Dorne first, she should be able to reach King’s Landing by midseason. I think that Cercei will hear of her arrival, order to burn the city down and escape to Casterly Rock, which will be besieged by the combined Stark and Targaryen forces in the season finale.
– As there is no mention of Tyrion being in the Dragonpit scence, I guess that Dany will split up her forces at the beginning of the season. Tyrion will be ordered to attack Casterly Rock from the seaside which is something Daario suggested in episode 6×10 (“Do you want the Second Sons to attack from the westcoast? If we take Casterly Rock, the Lannisters will have nowhere to run when you hit King’s Landing”). I guess that Tyrion’s naval force (including Yara+Theon) will encounter Euron on the way, which leads to the promised sea battle. Euron will capture Tyrion as a gift for his new ally Cercei, which brings us to a Lannister reunion at the end of the season – just in time for the big showdown, when Jon and Dany arrive to besiege the Rock.
– If Jaime is still loyal to Cercei at that point that would explain the foreshadowing from Riverrun last season where Brienne tells Jaime “[Should I fail to persuade the Blackfish to surrender, and if you attack the castle], honor compels me to fight for Sansa’s kin… To fight YOU”. Being in a situation where he has to choose between being loyal to Cercei (which means fighting Brienne and allowing Tyrion to be tortured and killed) or being loyal to Tyrion and Brienne will be the last straw to make him turn on his sister and become the Valonqar.
– Yes, I think that Jon and Dany will form an alliance to defeat the Lannisters before they turn towards the White Walker threat. Jon knows that the North needs the support of the crown to have a chance against the Army of the Dead. Cercei won’t listen to him, so he is dependent on Dany becoming queen of Westeros. But she does not know him and at the moment the King in the North is more of a rival for her as he rules over a big part of the kingdom she means to conquer. He has to earn her trust first and that’s why he will lead (a part of) the Northern/Vale army south at the end of the season to help Dany defeat the Lannisters. The Wall will fall in the season finale and it makes sense for Team Jon not to be at Winterfell when it happens, so the White Walkers can conquer the majority of the North before they can be stopped by the united armies of Westeros and Dany’s dragons (probably somewhere around the Neck). Remember, we have 6 episodes left after the season 7 finale to cover only one major plotline. There must be more to it than just a big battle near the Wall.
ghost of winterfell,
Yeah, he changed his comment…
Apollo,
Mmh, I doubt the scene takes a month. My guess is they are obviously going to be using the Dragonpit a lot this next season. Multiple scenes with multiple people.
Sandy,
Sansa doesn’t need to leave Winterfell and neither does Jon. If I was Sansa I would probably never want to leave Winterfell again. Both of them (Jon and Sansa) even said they should have never left.
arystark999,
That’s why Euron surely has to attack Daenerys’ fleet, and the Lannisters attack her Westerosi allies, before she reaches Westeros.
As you say, the Lannisters and Euron would be no match for Daenerys’ entire coalition and her dragons once united.
So she has to suffer some losses before she can pull her entire act together, just to make it any sort of contest.
Edith,
That seems to be the implication, imo.
TheKingWhoCares,
He will not lead his forces on a 3000 mile round trip into battle, risking those forces-and abandoning his people when an army of WWs are at the door and Winter has arrived in the North. Besides which- Dany has no need of a few thousand men. What King would do this?
He’ll obviously send envoys- Davos and Brienne.
Sean C.,
I think Cersei def. goes back to Casterly Rock. I don’t think she will die. I think Dany will show mercy towards cersei
The connection between Dany and Jon has been heavily foreshadowed in both the books and the show. It’s not very out there at all. Some people might not like it because it has a traditional twist to it but it’s not out there at all to see that these two characters are being brought together.
At this moment it would be incredibly beneficial for Jon to align himself with Dany, given her resources, army and of course dragons. I don’t know how the story will unfold next season but circumstances might make it so that an alliance via marriage would also be beneficial for Dany. Being allies is one thing but marriage would cement that alliance and guarantee the support of the South (if Dany controls it). Alliances can disintegrate once resources become scarce, that’s much harder to do once you are married.
ghost of winterfell,
Stargaryen,
What makes you think Cersei would want mercy, even if for some reason Dany decided to extend it to a crazy mass-murderer?
Edith,
I don’t think it has to be before. Westeros is large and she has a large army. Her stopping/landing somewhere doesn’t necessarily mean they’re all permanently stuck together on land. She could split her forces, such as sending Yara with a contingent by sea to the Iron Islands for instance. There can be strategic reasons to move on multiple locations. In other words, there are ways that she could suffer losses after reaching Westeros.
Personally, I don’t think it really has to be an even match or a big contest where Daenerys loses a lot of her men and struggles mightily. There will be battles of course as Cersei and Euron won’t go down without a fight, but the story is setting up for the main climax to be the war against “Winter” and the right pieces need to get in position to prepare for that. The spoiler in this thread seems to indicate one of those steps is occurring.
I actually don’t believe Jon will bend the knee to Dany. I don’t see the point in doing the King in the North stuff in the adaptation if he is simply going to give the title up and bend the knee within the next 7 episodes. Since him becoming KITN is already likely to be incredibly different in the source material, they could have just skipped that in the show if they knew he was going to bend the knee to Dany within 7 episodes. Seems to me the point of making him King in the North in this plot is because he has experience with the war to come, and the North is larger than the other 6 Kingdoms combined. The North needs someone to organize and prepare them. A formal leader. And yes, he needs Dany’s help, but why does he need to give the title up 7 episodes later to get it? SHE needs his help too, a fact often lost on some. They won’t just come to kill and stop with Northerners.
It won’t say much for Daenerys, quite frankly. Yes, I believe you that the dead are coming to kill all of us, BUT…I won’t help you unless you bend the knee and give me your land? That doesn’t seem to make much story sense, especially with people around Dany like Tyrion and with this report, Davos.
moiaf,
It’s not a matter believing George R. R. Martin would think of twisting things for twisting sake, or a fear of the predictable. Actually, for me at least I don’t see it that way at all. As a matter of a fact, I would love for some predictable endings. I look at it more in terms of the following: You have 2 different people reading the same chapter and each person has a chance to get inside the character’s head. Each person might draw their own conclusion regarding what he or she just read. It can be very grey. Who do we believe? Jaime or Ned? Theon or Jon? Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Maybe there’s a reason jon is quiet and moody in the books or Jaime has an attitude? We all draw our own conclusions when we read this type of fiction. This is where people on forums might clash. does the song of ice and fire books center on relationships? Absolutely. Does it contain romance, fantasy, politics? It has all of these things. Any time I read a theory that has pretty concrete facts and the poster can draw some believable conclusions? I am definitely on board. There are some pretty good you tube videos out there posted that are quite credible as well.
TheKingWhoCares,
I love this potential synopsis. Perhaps you could get yourself to New Mexico to help George along a bit.. 😉
Jon is bending no knee…ever again. Tormund said it. “You spent too much time with us. You will never be a kneeler again”. That line carries significance.
Hypothetically, if this is heading toward a Jon/Dany political union, him becoming KITN is a necessary precondition of that.
He’ll give in:
This is DANY the noble, the glorious, the magnificent, the brave, the virtuous, the marvelous. Within the reality created by both novels and the show, good people worship her and bad people don’t. Jon is a good guy. He will want to give in. He will have to give in.
Giving in isn’t as out of character for Jon as it was for the poor Dothraki, even Tyrion, whose cynicism disappears when he’s in Dany’s presence. Jon wasn’t overjoyed at being resurrected, at having to get embroiled in politics and war again, at becoming King. He’s not going to fight for a title if he doesn’t have to, as he never wanted it in the first place.
…and he will have to give in if she demands it: North is weak. It will be the first region to face the Walker apocalypse. Jon’s met the Walkers, knows what that’s like. If Dany demands that he hand in his crown in return for an alliance with three dragons, he should do as she asks: Westeros is facing The End, not the pissing contest the War of the Five Kings was.
Mel,
That’s exactly what I think.
She’ll be like “Alright, Davos and Brienne. Y’all are good ambasadors but I need to see some proof for myself. And I must meet this KITN of yours before I decide to help u.”
And therefore she will go to Winterfell at the end of season 7, meet Jon and the Wall will fall.
Doesn’t Jon bend the knee to Stannis in the next episode? And doesn’t he try to get Mance to bend the knee to Stannis? I remember Jon getting upset at Mance for letting his pride get in the way of the bigger picture. There is also that line from the Season 1 finale in the KITN scene where Greatjon says “it was the dragons we bowed to, and now the dragons are dead”. (Perhaps that line carries significance as well) And we all know that season ended with the birth of dragons.
To be clear I also don’t think Jon will bend the knee either, and I don’t think Dany will make him (I don’t believe she asked the Greyjoys to) but the possibility does exist.
I agree. I always thought it was important that Jon and Dany meet as equals. Their respective roles in the WfD will require them to work as a team and that they balance each other out. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.
I hear ya. I guess what I was getting at was the use of the argument that something is predictable or cliche in order to discredit a theory or an interpretation. There are plenty of things within the story that were predictable or cliche. The Red Wedding was heavily foreshadowing, even though it was still shocking.
Although, we might have varying views about how events will unfold, I think most readers/active viewers can have educated guest at some of the major events that will unfold.And this is based on all the information we have been provided with in previous books and/or seasons.
The Red Keep is probably going kaboom with the help of wildfire, we saw it though Dany’s eye in the HOTU and we’ve seen it twice through Bran’s visions. Cersei most likely will die, because that’s what her arc has been building towards. The “good guys” will probably team up. There will probably be some discord or misunderstanding or strained relationship at first, but they most likely will come together.
All of these could be considered predictable but you can’t just ignore the information that has been provided to us in multiple occasion.
Dany is a lot more pragmatic than people give her credit for it. When Tyrion entered her service she didn’t ask him to kneel to her, when he decided that he wanted to do it, he did it out of respect for her and of his own volition. We don’t see Yara and Theon kneeling to her either (although they could have done it before the scene started) and when they agree on a deal they shake hands, they don’t kneel to her like others have done.
Ben,
I kind of disagree. There are several instances in the books where Jon is linked with ice motifs:
-In the House of the Undying visions, Dany sees “a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness,” which we can safely assume means Jon.
-Jon has a dream where he sees himself “armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.”
-Then Bran has a vision where he sees Jon at the Wall: “Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.”
Jon’s surname is Snow, I don’t think he can get any Icier. Unless of course he becomes an Other, one never knows.
pulledgroin,
I’ve wondered if or why they wouldn’t do it this way too …
I suppose the tell in this case would be if we start seeing unexpected directors in NI …
Danny,
I agree. Until it doesn’t make sense I’ll continue to believe “A Song of Ice and Fire” main underlying meaning is The Story of Jon and Daenerys. The closer we get to the end the more this becomes evident.
orange,
He is going to become king of westeros now..
Like I said It made sense they wanted independence when they went against lannister and baratheons..
But dany targaryen is different and they can now come into the fold particularly if their king becomes king of realm
It’s like GReatjon Umber said ” its the dragons that we married and now dragons are dead ” …
But now dragons are back and they will marry again..
You see this is why I feel like moiaf said dany is less appreciated and made out of character in all the theories..
The thing is you don’t need to consider tyrion or Davos..
Will dany herself even ask for such thing is a right question…
Is she ever asked anyone to do bend the knee so far ..
It was tyrion who started speaking agaisnt yara when she spoke about independence and it was dany who said she can ask and others can ask her well..
Is she someone who after learning about the danger realm is going to face but get into a petty demand about bending a knee …
We keep hearing about how Jon doesn’t want power and only cares about WW and saving realm..well dany will do the same in fact she has already showed us that …
As tyrion said ” she is a saviour”.
But if fans want north independent and cannot near the thought of uniting under dany and rather get overflowed by WW then they are welcome to it…but neither characters are not built to stand and watch something like that ..
moiaf,
Good to see you Moiaf around here welcome..
Danny,
For me the story was always been about two targaryens ..the primary protagonists of this story .
One raised in north and other in east ..
One a complete embodiment of stark and another embodiment of targaryen ..
Haven’t had a chance to read any comments yet so probably repeating what’s already been said but squeeeee! I love Davos and Brienne separately and will even more so together, hopefully still with Pod (AKA Pidge Podge). They are three of the nicest characters in the show, all fiercely loyal, with a strong sense of morals, who would risk their lives for others and always do what they honestly believe is right. They are the complete opposite of everything I dislike in my most hated characters. If they can overcome their Stannis/Renly past, and it looks like they do, they will make the best gang of sidekicks ever, ever, EVER! I don’t care who they are meeting with or what for I’m just excited for them being in the same team. TLDR: quite pleased about it 😉 😀
mandzipop,
True…also,there is a hint that she will never sit on the Iron Throne and that she might die beyond the wall…we´ll have to wait and see if all that has been hinted will come to pass or if they were just filler story lines that were meant to be dropped later
Apollo,
Jaime joins the Night´s Watch and is one of the few survivors by the end of season 8.
I am the only one who remember that the rebellion against the Targaryans started because Daenary’s father burned alive the Lords of Winterfell, who happened to be Jon’s,Sansa’s and Arya’s uncle and grandfather, while Ned Stark was the leader of the rebellion?
Yeah the Lannisters turned up last and did all the dirty work but they supported Rhaegar for the throne until he died. Jon maybe a Targaryen but Bran,Arya or Sansa and the other lords of Winterfell aren’t and they adored Stark family.
I guess the producers forgot that….. but reading the books, i don’t see where GRRM tries to say to us how good rulers the Targaryens were or that incest is so good we need to give them back the throne and continue the incest line. We need them in the story because Azor Ahai but other than that, nobody in the realm remember their rule as good one.
Apollo,
I don’t see Jaime surviving S7.
Of course this is pure speculation.
moiaf,
I agree, if you, as a reader or audience member, has a felling for where the things are going, it is because you got to know the characters, their motivations and arcs so well, that you are able to think as they would think…
If you are really paying attention, the greatest twists in the story are not based on a sudden change of personality or an unexpected event, but they are basically betrayals or sacrifices. Lots of hints, foreshadwing, build up , you name it; it is only a surprise if you are watching/reading casually.
Half of Westeros still fought for the Targaryens and after the War of the Five Kings we hear from smallfolk in the books who miss Aerys reign. He might have been crazy but up to Robert’s Rebellion it had been relatively peaceful in the land. The Wot5K has decimated Westeros, most smallfolk aren’t too happy about the Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons,…and most of the nobility is pretty divided.
Regarding the Stark children, we don’t really hear them talk negatively about the Targaryen’s other than Sansa talking about Rhaegar kidnapping and rapping Lyanna. They know what happened of course but they also know that the people responsible, Rhaegar and Aerys, are very much dead. Additionally, Jon has met a Targaryen, Maester Aemon, and he was very fond of him. So, although, I don’t think they’ll be all welcoming, I also don’t think that they’ll be completely against Dany because she’s a Targaryen.
Additionally, a marriage between an uncle/niece or aunt/nephew is not considered incest in Westeros, it’s like a marriage between cousins, which Ned’s parents were. There at least two uncle/niece marriages in the Stark family tree. Marriages between brother/sister or parent/child is what is considered incest.
Finally, I don’t think that the Targaryens will reign over Westeros in the end. I think there is a good chance that Westeros will be divided and that Jon and/or Dany might die.
Thanks!
Exactly, this is what I was getting at. I think what makes ASOIAF different is that GRRM will follow through on what he has shown us will happen.
Too many times in fantasy the hero comes near death, everything is pointing to them dying but all of a sudden there is this miraculous way that they will survive. While GRRM gave us all the signs that Ned was going to die and then followed through and cut his head off.
GRRM has been guilty at times of fantasy tropes with his multiple resurrections and such. But he’s better than most with keeping true to what he’s showing and telling us.
dragonbringer,
A Time for the wolves … was the name of the final novel…..
Jojen Reed “the Wolves will come back”
is not only about the Targaryens…..
that is book related… the show is another mater…
moiaf,
Thank you for all you have been saying I agree completely.There is nothing I hate more than the predictable or cliche argument.Characters staying in character and the author following through with what he has laid out is the best kind of writing imo.Dany and Jon are not going to suddenly have a lobotomy in season 7.
You are very welcome.
I just find that the argument that something is too predictable or cliche is not very useful when having a discussion. It shuts it down and doesn’t leave any room for debate. I think a better way to discuss a theory you might not agree with is by provided evidence that might contradict it.
All we are doing here is guessing, we none of us know for sure what will happen but most most of us try to make an educated guest.
Charlie Stark,
This series is a coming of age story for six characters tyrion and Jon dany and arya bran and sansa
So yes they will be playing a big part ..however a time for wolves was not about Starks but was about wolf hour in the night and GrRM did change the title..which doesn’t mean he is going to kill all the starks
But as I said Jon and dany are primary protagonists as in they are the leaders and others comes as secondary ..
Maggie,
And who in the realm remembers them as bad ones..
As moiaf said we see riverlands folk speak and wish for the days of old king ..
We see people from citadel drink in the name of daenerys as the rightful heir to the throne..
Let me ask you this if arya sees dany who was spirited away from home and had all the family killed and left only with An abusive brother and ran from cities to cities always afraid of hired knives and live off streets and begging and being a pawn in the others games and sold into a marriage and lost husband and child but still managed to make a name for herself and fight for the common people and those who can’t fight themselves ..who do you think will arya see in her ..will she be reminded of someone ..
I regard individual based on their character not based on the house …if viserys is targaryen heir or Brandon stark( ned’s brother ) is stark heir ..I wouldn’t support either of them ..
asoiaf fan,
I hear that as well as foreshadowing events in the books, some people also use history to try to predict the events of the show, based on the fact that many different events in history apparently influenced Game of Thrones, such as the Wars of the Roses, Israeli history pre-Christ, the Ancient Egyptians, medieval Europe, Roman Britain and the Ancient Britons.
Dany seems to be almost a fictional parallel of Henry VII. Both brought up in exile and poverty, both having had their houses displaced by rival houses, both sought the support of the nobles of their adopted homelands, and both sailed to their homelands to “re-claim” their “rightful” titles. Henry VII also flew the banner of his home country (Wales), which consisted of a red dragon in battle. This has made me begin to suspect that Cersei, may not necessarily be overwhelmed by an invasion by Dany, but may actually meet her in battle (maybe the Trident). There are many other potential examples of historic parallels in the text.. It is fun to speculate.
I guess a final showdown in season 8 between Dany and Cersei makes more sense to me because perhaps from an entertainment perspective, Cersei has only just become bad ar$e and Euron has only just been introduced to us.
I am happy to concede that I might be wrong but I just don’t see them being disposed of in season 7. Perhaps Cersei will temporarily be displaced and head to Casterly Rock for a time to re-group, but she maybe too valuable to be cast down so soon and so quickly after being around since season 1. Similarly, Euron is rather new and big things are expected of him.
I admit that I could be wrong though.
Jon is going to marry Dany. It has been obvious since the beginning.
dragonbringer,
It all started with Stark kids in the books, you can say in the show partially too. More equal. Convinient to omit them and also Tyrion played a huge role in both mediums. He ahs most POV chapters and screen tie in series. George’s favourite house might Targaryen as he wrote tons of stuff on them but only Dany represents that. Not Jon, who is half Targ by blood and half Sark , not just full Targ.
When GreatJon had that speech. By marrying to dragons he meant basically kneeling as Torrhen did with Aegon to save his people. Jon already demonstrated with Mance and Tormund that kneeling is not a shameful act, and if it saves the people, he’ll do it. He sees the bigger picture and ice zombies on the horizon. Giving up his title KitN and independency as it is, makse sense if it means her assistance and actually fighting with them.
Which will most likely happen with Jon and Dany. He’s not her equal by any chance. Not in status or power.
It was series of events but Rhaegar kidnapping led to it , Brandon being hotheaded fool and asking for Rhaegar’s head like that. Then Aerys being mad and buring Rickard alive and Brandon strangled himself. Also demanding heads of Ned and Robert.
I think it’s basically given that people who has a Targaryen blood at least some of it but not identity withthem, will rule over Westeros once more. Everything build up to it. Whether it will be Jon, Dany or Tyrion. Dany is 100% Targ, Jonand Tyrion most likely bastards. Kinda mirroring with Ned and Tywin. Coming from two different places raised by someon else.
Also Northerners do not like Targaryens that much because of recent history. Rickard, Brandon. Also like Lannisters are not like there for deaths of Ned. Boltons were despised for Red Wedding along with Freys. If Jon’s parentage comes to light, there coud be heated discussions whch LF might use to his advantage or Sansa.
George said main underlying is Dany and her dragons against White Walkers, not Jon and Dany. Title could have multiple meanings such as them or dragons vs white walkers. It’s really not about just two people in the story as the main thing,some romantic thing.
Jon is not her equal. Either by status, name, power or what he accomplished. There is nobody who can be her equal. If you mean as main protagonists but Tyrion is in this case there with them as one of the main protagonists, but he’s clearly, nor her equal as he’s her Hand. He works for her. Basically she’ll unite 7 Kingdoms.
Jon will bend but not because it’s a shameful, It really isn’t when people’s lives are at stake. He’ll do it and save his people because he cares only for that. Especially, after his death. Life is more important than anything. When he dragged himself out of that pile of bodies, it showed that too. Jon is a man of compromise and if giving up title means living, that’s what he’ll do like he told with Mance or Tormund.
So the dragonpit is in KL? By this point then, Cersei has to finished if Dany is in KL? I wonder if Brienne will see Jaime again?
Jon and Yara is different thing. One asked for it and other just took it. Also difference in power. Jon got any army to fight from her point of view, a threat.
Jon will bend the knee and giving up his title if it means saving his people. He already hinted at it with Mance and Tormund. That doesn’t make him stupid or illogical. Yes, Northerners would probably never respect him like before but when his parentage will come out, they might not like him that much either.
So basically marriage is not needed for her point of view as it can be achieved due to simply Jon surrendering his position peacefully because don’t think he wants to risk wrath of her and white walkers. Rather kneeling and live than be proud and die. Jon is a pragmatic in this and he’ll bend the knee if it means that. After giving up his title he has nothing to offer to her.
I agree Jon needs Dany far more than she needs him. Which is what is my argument. He’ll do whatver it takes to live and even surdenr. So Dany can rule on her own and it might even be better for her. Jon is not useful as he would never go there and rule. It would just sort of camuflage of marriage. Jon never ever wanted to be King of Westeros nor he will in my opinion. Lord of Winterfell and legitimate Stark yes. No that so he’ll likely want to be protecting the North.
Romance? Not sure about that. I know people fancy it too.
Apocalyptic queen,
In regard to historical parallels, IMO it’s also worth to look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I_of_Portugal. Not exactly, but very close to everyone’s favorite Jon Snow.
stop with this crap. NOt her equal… thats why I will never like Dany that much, she is not like a goddess or something like that, just overrated. And without the WW information she would die like anyone else, she has no clue about the WWs, and I seriously doubt that all of her army can handle the cold.
taim,
Easy. I love them both, in fact Jon a little bit more but not he’s not her equal. What she achieved, what she earned, in terms of power. That doesn’t make Jon lesser character or man.
Dany is someone people in Westeros and Essos will remember for generations. Someone who breaks the rules and traditions. She ended slavery and then she se sail to conquer Westeros, like Aegon the Conqueror did. She is often compared to him, Nymeria or Genghis Khan as conquerors. If anyone from current groups is going to be widely remembered, it’s her.
Inga,
YES!! The bastard king who married with a english princess, the daughter of the duke of lancaster! It’s because of their wedding that England (UK) and Portugal became allies.
Yikes. Not her equal….
taim,
And people wonder why some fans dislike Dany….
dragonbringer,
I agree, I don’t think Dany would even ask Jon to bend the knee since she didn’t with Yara. Dany seems more about equal partnerships, ensuring they aren’t violent towards others but respect her claim and don’t betray her, the most she will probably expect from Jon is a handshake and a vow of his loyalty. It’s okay for a little independence but the seven kingdoms still need to be united if they have any chance to defeat the white walkers otherwise they won’t win.
While I agree that Jon is not Dany’s equal when it comes to the magnitude of their accomplishments, I would consider him her equal in regards to their character. Let me explain.
Dany and Jon are basically parallels of each other. Their stories have similar trayectorias, both began the story as outcast, came into their own and became leaders in their own right, Dany at a much larger scale than Jon. Nonetheless, their success and failures mirror each other to an extent.
Now, if we look at their character we see two young people trying to make a difference in their world. Defying the status quo (brining Wildling into the realm, ending slavery) bringing groups of people together, who have never been together, learning to lead and learning that leadership is not easy and the cost can be large.
Just because Jon’s accomplish are at a smaller scale doesn’t make them any less important or admirable. They are equals because of who they are as people and because they could relate to each other in ways they can’t really relate to anyone else.
At least that’s how I see it.
arystark999,
It could be a possibility that Dany’s army splits up to save time, she gives a good decent amount (also Martells) to Yara to go North to the Iron Island, while she goes South with her dragons and the rest of her army.
That’s the only way I could see the Army encountering trouble with Euron and Jon’s camp would probably hear something about it and if Dany was there go see her not wait until she’s all the way south to see her.
juji_mee,
Agreed, Dany may believe in magic but she knows the people knew her father was mad so she won’t want to do anything until she meets Jon and possibly takes a look beyond the wall herself and comes back to all the non-velieving southerners will the truth.
Commander Mormont and Maester Aemon both told Tyrion about the White Walkers, I think Tyrion will convince Dany the threat is real when she is sceptical of Davos.
moiaf,
As a practical character, she would know that she can ask for anything from the North, including their first born, and get it. Northerners have nothing to bargain with. What can they do? Stop fighting the Walkers? Send an army south and attack her? She has them by the balls. But it’s a given that she’ll either do the right thing from the beginning, or start by goofing, then fix it up. This is what happened at Meereen.
That, for me, sucks the excitement out of her story, and it’s not just her story. She took Tyrion down with her, as worshiping her forced him to flush his cynical soul down the toilet. I fear that the same thing will befall Davos and Brienne, who will be reduced to reminding people that Dany Knows Best. They’re meeting her at the Pit. omg so much can go wrong.
Geralt of Rivia,
Have it your way …like I said just wait till how it is done before making conclusions..
Pray tell how this explains ..
She commands more men and regions and she will be making impacts in both essos and westeros and bringing in major changes …
taim,
Like it or not Grrm wrote her that way and how people see her…
Your post shows that she will be having problems with WW and winter which is not Jon’s to control..
Jon has been LC and now KITN ..while dany been throughout essos and impacted big and brought in major changes and has many people under rule and governance and she will be impacting in the westeros too ..many may don’t think essos is not important but the author does not think that ..
Snowblind,
Tyrion has been laughing about it from the start …its very possible that this happens other way around. .
maria,
So what would you have of a character who is known to show respect to all types of people despite their birth and respect each one has to say and listens and acknowledges their value do with tyrion or Davos or brienne ..
Flayed Potatoes,
But I do agree it does show why some hate dany because they feel insecure and at the thought of finding someone more powerfull than jon…this as allways been the problem right..
This is why we can’t have jon ride rhaegal or viserion because they are small compared to drogon…so we should have either drogon or ice dragon or cannibal or any other all that matters is it must be bigger than what dany rides..
dragonbringer,
Embarrassing. You really need to get over the Jon/Drogon fixation. Nobody here is even saying that.
Flayed Potatoes,
Well you were talking about fans disliking dany …were you not ..
I wonder why there exists such a theory and please its not jusy drogon but need of Bigger dragon for jon which is explicitly stated by those fans ..
dragonbringer,
Just like there are theories about Dany embodying every prophecy there is and being ice and fire (separately and at once) and wishful thinking about her burning Starks, and Lannisters and everyone in Westeros who is a descendant of someone in RR, and every character they don’t like because reasons.
Fans make up theories all the time. Who cares? It’s not like every theory is made up with an anti-Dany agenda in mind. I’ve barely even heard of those ice dragon/cannibal theories…they barely register compared to the popular theories, yet you’re magnifying them like it’s all everyone talks about.
moiaf,
I said carefully power, titles, what she achieved and not who they are as characters, their traits. Jon and Dany are as characters similair, as you just described. People often jump at conclusion that I hate him or so.
dragonbringer,
People should see riding any of the dragons as a honour, as the dragon chooses the rider. Dragons are extremely intelligent creatures and a lot of Targs mistreated them in the past so it’s good to see Dany treating them as her children. Drogon will always be Dany’s no one will ride him but her, unless they are on him with her or saving her. Dany named him after her husband, it has always been shown in the show and in the book that she has the strongest relationship with him compared to the other two, also her placement of his egg at Drogo’s heart on the pyre speaks for itself considering she leads with her heart and Drogon has already chosen her as his rider. It’s a little annoying how people say Jon will bond with Drogon or ride him when it’s obviously gonna be one of the other two either the one named after his father or Visyerion who was placed near drogo’s arm symbolizing his strength. Don’t believe the Ice Dragon will appear either considering it would be more likely on the side of white walkers as it’s not like Ice Breath could do any damage to them.
Flayed Potatoes,
Remember I didn’t bring fans up or wonder why some hate dany …just because a poster made a comment about how she is more powerful ..
Because there is connection to every prophecies with dany and book characters themselves identify dany with those prophecies ..its not like people are trying very hard to fit her in every prophecies..
Yes they are mostly talked about ..it depends on where I guess
Geralt of Rivia,
Welcome to my world …how does that feel..
Mel,
Exactly. ..i lately doubt there is going to be any rider other than dany till she dies but that’s for another day..
Choooo …. Choooo…. Lets get all aboard hehe 😀 😀
arvgar,
Why would Jon bend the knee to the mad queen with he has the better claim to the throne? He wants her help yes but him submitting the North would make him a terrible leader.
dragonbringer,
I think there will be more than Dany. Not a fan because Jon on a dragon seems a bit weird. I see him as someone who is experienced in battles, fitting to lead them on the ground. Dany cover the air. But dragons are more useful with a rider.
Tyrion scene with dragons was not there for no reason.
Jonsnowed,
Better claim? No. Whether as a bastard or legitimate.
Aerys named Viserys his heir and then Dany follows it. But claim means little when you got three dragons and a massive army. That’s what matters.
Apocalyptic queen,
It does make a lot of sense to leave the war in two fronts, to be resolved along the remaining 13 episodes, as you say, and it give us more time with the Lannister siblings. The White Walkers are not villains, as Cersei is; they are a threat, they are oponents, but they are so alien to us. Audiences need compelling protagonists and antagonists to really engage.
However, GoT seems to operate with overall themes. In this sense, to have one season mostly dedicated to tie all the political loose ends before a season where GoT will embrace the fantasy side of the story is almost like a natural choice.
Darkstar,
It is already a bit awkward with Brienne and Davos traveling together.
So many exciting goodies and so many great theories ! Yippee ! 😉
I do apologise for being nitpicky but I believe Greatjon said “it was the dragons we bowed to”, not “married”. I do not recall any Targaryen / Northern marital union; the unification was very much an act of (highly reasonable) submission on King Torrhen’s part.
The North / rest of Westeros dynamics is probably going to be quite fascinating next season.
On the one hand, Daenerys has clearly stated she wants to rule over all Seven Kindgoms, refusing Yara’s plea for the Iron Isles’ independence; on the other hand, the Northern lords have just declared their region’s sovereignty and have never particularly liked southerners ruling over them, considering the huge cultural, religious and even ethnic differences between the North and the rest of the land.
Will Jon become the second King of Winter to be known as the one “who knelt” ? Given how close he is to Free Folk culture and their aversion to kneeling, it may be a genuinely interesting dilemma both for him as a man and for him as a ruler.
Quite meaty stuff for Kit Harington. I have no doubt he will nail it.
As for the North “begging” for Daenerys’s help, I do not think it will be necessary…
We are used to thinking of the White Walkers as a Northern problem (for obvious reasons ^^) but they really are not. Now that winter has come, the North is merely the frontline of the ultimate battle; if it “falls”, the rest of Westeros is definitely up for grabs, as far as the Others are concerned. They will march on, descending onto the more southern regions of the Seven Kingdoms.
Therefore, by fighting the White Walkers, Daenerys would not so much be doing the North a favour as she would be protecting the very people she intends to rule over. Her people.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Duh duh duh ! Let the hyperventilation commence 😉
Brienne’s presence is intriguing indeed…
One of the reasons why she is heading south again may have to do with the show’s writers bringing her back to where her literary counterpart is and perhaps, ultimately, stays. Sending Brienne on a diplomatic mission is as good a justification as any to have her go back to where she might meet Jaime again ^^
Another reason for her presence in the south may have something to do with the power dynamics in the “broad” North. After all, the Vale and the Riverlands are question marks : the Vale has pledged to House Stark (not Jon specifically) however its main connection to the Direwolves is through Sweetrobin’s (and Littlefinger’s) Tully heritage; the Riverlands could definitely follow in the Falcons’ footsteps but they too are only linked to the Starks through Ned’s marriage to Catelyn.
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again : fear the mighty Trouts ! 😉
Were both heirs (Sweetrobin and Edmure) of both regions to “disappear”, no matter how, Sansa and / or Bran could potentially have a claim on both kingdoms.
Therefore, Brienne might not join the negotiation table as a KitN representative (Davos is more than capable to do that on his own); she may be another leader’s envoy…
I believe Dragonbringer was using the actual quote from the book and not the tv show.
ACME,
Hi ACME!! It’s so good to read you again!!
You’ve raised some interesting points: Brienne could be sent shouth by LF in order to isolate Sansa… Brienne, with all her loyalty and bravery, is not a smooth talker, that’s why I was surprised when I read she will be meeting Daenerys alongside with Davos.
Regarding your thoughts about Brienne being back in the south for a potential second encouter with Jaime and therefore “putting her back” where her book counterpart is, I think it’s entirely possible. However, I feel that they already have said their goodbyes when they met in the siege of Riverrun. But maybe you are right and they will meet again… Do you think Jamie wil finally “break up” with Cersei and be put back where his book counterpart is? Or do you their encounter will be with Jamie as the head of the Lannister army? He didn’t look very happy in Cersei’s coronation.
And speaking of that: since Cersei was crown not but a religious authority but from a man of “science”, completely separating Church from State… does that mean she will bring the Enlightenment to Westeros? (just kidding) 😀
Arghhh!! The wait is too long! 😛
Fascinating! When did this happen?
Kay,
I was going to comment on that too. She didn’t fully refuse as she agreed, with stipulations. They won’t be allowed to reeve, rove, raid or rape and they’re to support her claim to the Seven Kingdoms. I guess you could say they agreed to create a bit of a Commonwealth.
Remember, there are nine regions in Westeros that are at this point in the story considered part of the Seven Kingdoms. That term will continue to be used even if the Iron Islands aren’t totally included.
Clob,
From what I saw of the scene in 6.09, Daenerys stated her terms of an alliance. It would be a bit strange, IMO, for her to have as allies, a neighboring nation that rampantly reaved, raped and pillaged her own lands and surrounding seas. In fact, it was Tyrion who seemed to be taken aback at the terms of independent rule of the Iron Islands, whereas she didn’t even seem opposed to the idea of other factions asking for their own independence.
Jay Targ,
You are absolutely right. I had forgotten that the wording on the show had been changed from that in the books. Literary Greatjon is more prone to metaphors than his TV counterpart. ^^
My bad.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Hello there, Dornish Tyrell ! How you doin’ ?
Always a delight to read you too 😉
I wholeheartedly share your opinion on Brienne.
If Davos, as Jon’s embassador, solely needs a bodyguard during his diplomatic mission, why send Brienne of all people ? Surely, a couple of regular northern soldiers would work just as well… As for the idea that the heir of Tarth could serve as council to Seaworth during the negotiations, well, let’s face it : Davos doesn’t need any help in this department. The man is one hell of an advocate !
The only explanation I can muster is that Brienne joins Davos on his expedition, not as Jon’s backup representative but as someone else’s envoy to negotiate in the name of a region that is not technically part of Jon’s territory. But it is just a wild speculation 😉
Ha, Jaime ! As slippery as ever, that man…
I concur wholeheartedly with your idea that he and his sister will eventually part ways, to match the books’ storyline. Nevertheless, I would be tempted to envision Cersei as the engineer of the breakup.
I do not know whether she ever loved her brother but one thing has, I believe, been consistently apparent : she has always wanted to be him. Cersei has repeatedly been shown to resent her sex due to the social and political limitations associated with it (quite rightly so, dare I say). Jaime was her way to transcend those fronteers; she needed him to do her bidding, to perform what she was forbidden to. However, with the successful coup she carried out without Jaime’s contribution, she effectively shattered the limits imposed upon her.
Does she still need her brother now ? It is at least debatable, I think.
As for Cersei separating Church and State, ha ha ha ha !
The weirdest thing is that I would not put it past her. To be completely honest, I would not put anything past her at this point : she is unleashed and she is all out of f*cks to give.
After all, by pursuing her purely selfish interest (killing everyone in the Sept and seizing the throne for herself), she has already changed the course of Westerosi history and institutions. She de facto legitimised any other woman’s claim over a territory and, possibly, absolute primogeniture.
Cersei, accidental and homicidal social justice advocate ! 😉
Kay,
As Clob mentioned, the terms of the agreement do not, in my all too subjective opinion, point towards real independence… Genuine sovereignty would exclude the possibility for a foreign ruler to dictate new domestic legislation, something Daenerys does quite explicitly when she prohibits raping, reeving and all the other delightful activities Ironborn consider to be traditional.
Furthermore, the Mother of Dragons refered to Yara’s duty not only to support her claim as queen but also to “respect the integrity of the Seven Kingdoms”. Now, I may absolutely be wrong but I believe in this instance “integrity” is not synonymous to “moral rectitude” but to “entirety”, “wholeness”. The Seven Kindgoms, as a territorial and political entity, were created by the Targaryens and always included the Iron Isles, conquered alongside with the Riverlands they ruled at the time.
At best, Daenerys seems to have offered the Greyjoys a form of devolution.
Would she do the same for the North ? Well, “the others are free to ask as well”, we were told. However, neither Daenerys nor Tyrion gave any indication that they would grant the requests…
BunBunStark,
Hopefully Arya because she knows LF was in cahoots with the Lannisters. She saw him meet with Tywin at Harrenhal.
TheKingWhoCares,
Love it!!
stop with this bend the knee bull, no wonder I will never like Dany, not everyone has to worship her.
maria,
I don’t think Dany will demand he bend the knee. Tyrion already told her she needs to make alliances. You don’t make alliances by demanding but by agreements. He also told her that in Westeros alliances are better made through marriages. The only bachelors of significance in Westeros currently are Jaime, Euron, Sweet Robin and Jon, the now KITN. Cersei would have to be dead for Jaime to consider marrying someone. That’s not going to happen just yet. Euron is off the table now that she’s made an alliance with Yara and Theon. Sweet Robin? Only LF would propose that one. The only one left is Jon. I don’t think Jon is going to want to marry someone just for an alliance. Tyrion will have his hands full trying to convince these two to marry. I think Tyrion will see a perfect match. Until they find out they are aunt and nephew. And Tyrion might be his uncle.
ACME,
Thank you for making this point. I was about to ask how this exchange was interpreted by those for whom English is a native tongue. For me it’s the 3rd language and I may not catch all the nuances. However, I have heard that “You will respect integrity” many times and it always ment “No independence for you, little ones”. So, it looks like I was right: Dany’s plans regarding the status of the Iron Ilands are deliberately ambiguous (seen and heard that too).
On the other hand, it’s worth to admit, that neither Yara, nor Euron were seeking independence either. Euron was planning to use the Iron Islands as a jumping ground to seize all the Seven Kingdoms (and solely for himcelf, not for the Ironborn, though the later imagined that differently). Yara, on the other hand, was asking Dany to give the Salt Throne back to her personally, so she submitted herself to her as a subject to a monarch, though the procedure implied a semi-equal alliance. And Dany’s notion that “Others are free to ask as well” was aimed not to any of the seven knigdoms, but rather to the nobble families who suffered injustice from the Lannisters – the Starks and the Tullies primarily. Moreover, it’s pretty clear that though the Seven Kingdoms can afford losing the Iron Islands, secession of the North along with the Vale and the Riverlands would dismantle the Targarian Empire as such, and Dany will seek to prevent that at all costs.
Clob,
I think the red keep will be destroyed in the end. Thats what dani saw while she was in the tower in quart. The throne room burned down.
What if Brienne has not been sent by anyone to the Dragonpit? What if Jaime is the one that was called to the Dragonpit and Brienne was simply with him at that time? The show has been building up a romance between Jaime and Brienne since season 2, you don’t take the time or the resources to built something up like taht to not have it culminate, so I see these two characters interacting with each other more and more as the show moves towards it’s end.