The running time for Game of Thrones season seven episodes has been a subject of uncharacteristically high interest, partly because of the novelty of a shorter season, but also because of the reports showing information differing between HBO.com and Entertainment Weekly. Though a few minutes here or there have been known to change in the HBO schedule, if it is to be believed we now know the running time of every season seven episode. And the last two are record-length!
Let’s just get to the hard data, because that’s what you are all looking for here:
- Episode 1: 59 minutes.
- Episode 2: 59 minutes.
- Episode 3: 63 minutes.
- Episode 4: 50 minutes.
- Episode 5: 59 minutes.
- Episode 6: 71 minutes.
- Episode 7: 81 minutes.
Now let’s play with the numbers: the last two episodes will break the record established by the last aired episode, the season six finale “The Winds of Winter”, which stood at 68 minutes. This year’s finale will reportedly top it by 13 minutes. For this show, that’s a lot.
Together, these seven episodes make up about 7 hours 20 minutes. With three fewer episodes to work with, that may be significantly less than the average 9 hours 15 minutes season, yet at the same time it’s the longest run of seven episodes in the show.
Historically, the average episode ranges very little from season to season (from a low of 54:25 in season two to a high of 56:08 in season one), so it’s fair to claim this season leaps ahead with its 63 minutes average — that is, 8 minutes longer than the typical Game of Thrones episode. Though the longer episodes do not make up for the missing three, they do make up for one of them; this season may as well have eight episodes.
I don’t know about you guys, but that feels like a long season to me!
Ha, episode 4 looking like the intruder ! 😀
Cant wait for the titles as well, they should reveal the first ones soon, I guess.
What happened to poor Episode 4? Why so tiny? 🙁
Poor episode 4 :'(
Poor little 4. ☹
4 sets up the last 3. It will be the transitional episode. Like a teaser episode.
amazing, Im floored!
Nice!
No love for Episode 4 I guess..
Wow 81 minutes!!
Who wrote episode 4 lol? Cogman or Dave Hill?
Wow the
is one of the shortest of all time.
I’m loving the longer running times, but what a let down that episode 4 isn’t longer. And considering what’s supposed to happen in that episode, I’m surprised it is only 50 minutes.
I can not wait for season 7!
I’m starting a kickstarter for Episode #4. The stretch goal is an extra 10 minutes.
Great news! Glad this information’s finally out there. I’m particularly happy with the supersized Episode 6 and Episode 7, given the events that those episodes are likely to cover, and the longer average length for this season’s episodes overall. I’ve made my peace with the shortened seasons, but I’m still grateful for every moment that we get to spend with these characters, especially now.
I know that some will key in on Episode 4 as the outlier, but a lot can happen in 50 minutes, particularly now that we’re dealing with a reduced number of locations. “The Watchers on the Wall” runs 51 minutes, and that’s one of my favorite episodes of the entire series. Episode 4 has the potential to reach those heights as well, particularly if that’s the hour when the dragons are unleashed in battle.
This certainly makes me happy. 🙂
#PoorEpisode4
Jack Bauer 24,
The short one.
It won’t be the only record this season will break.
Wow, an average runtime of 63 minutes. That’s awesome!
Episode 4 is definitely going to be a
Luka Nieto,
Isn’t Hardhome 61 minutes?
dragonbringer,
Can you cover your spoilers please
edit: everyone please cover your shit!
Jack Bauer 24,
Hardhome wasn’t a battle. It was a massacre hahaha
Jack Bauer 24,
I am sooooooooooooo excited
Even though its a shortened season, having an 81 minute episode is amazinggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
Luka Nieto,
Yeah I thought so ..I always believed it will be like hardhome so iam not surprised ..the trailer showed us how grand it will be and pray that it delivers what it promises..
Dee Stark,
You can watch the featurette, because they just talk about their work and the countries they film in, so no spoilers! but don’t read the comments!
Dee Stark,
I apologize I couldn’t cover it now .. I was actually speaking about something we saw in trailer but yeah i know you havent watched the trailer..it won’t happen again
Jack Bauer 24,
The Hardhome part of “Hardhome” only takes up about half the running time. “The Battle of the Bastards” is quite long as well, but it features two different battles. We’ve only had two single-setting battle episodes: “Blackwater” and “The Watchers on the Wall.” They were 54 and 50 minutes, respectively. To be fair, the former pair may be a fairer comparison to 7×04, which will feature more than one setting, as far as we know. So yeah, you’re right 😉
Shy Lady Dragon,
I didn’t watch that featurette…
I cam here to discuss the long episodes… and as most people know whats going to happen, I hope that they guess which episode under covered spoilers.
Dee Stark,
Easy there. 😉Your heart my not take it very well with this euphoria.
dragonbringer,
Well it could be from the trailer but I am sure its also based on something you know will happen from the spoilers. Most people here have read the leaks. So you could match it to the trailer.
Its okay, its too late now. Thanks for consideration for the future 🙂 🙂
Dee Stark,
I’m covering the spoilers from those who are not careful. Myself included! 😉
dragonbringer,
Geralt of Rivia,
hahahahaha
I am way too EXCITED AND I DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT
Hibberd dun goofed.
Luka Nieto,
Thanks a lot 🙂
Sorry, I don’t mean to be a pain. I just wanna read people’s comments/reactions to the long episode.
I usually try to stay out of the threads!
Based on the leaks we’re getting
Lannisters vs Dothraki
Jaime vs Highgarden
Cersei in KL
Jon vs Theon (who knows what else will happen at Dragonstone this time)
Tyrion doing something (I think he’s supposed to be at the ambush too)
Arya returning to Winterfell + Stark reunion
Sam and Gilly (possibly also Jorah)
So it should be a packed episode. I’d say 20 minutes of this might be the ambush itself.
Markus Stark,
To be fair to Hibberd, “not significantly longer” is a subjective term. Maybe he was merely debunking the idea that the shorter season will be completely made up by longer running times, which is not true… But yeah: the episodes are long enough that they would make 8 average GOT episodes instead of 7, so that feels “significantly longer” to me, and to most people too, I would guess.
Dee Stark,
Oh please, you should comment more often! And it’s not a pain, not at all. We do as best we can to cover spoilers, and to make clear which articles allow spoilers and which don’t. As this article includes no spoilers within the body of the text, any spoiler must be properly tagged in the comments.
Flayed Potatoes,
That is not entirely correct.
Luka Nieto,
True, it is very subjective.
But the fact that we are essentially getting 8 episodes worth of content is incredibly exciting to me.
I would expect similar runtimes next year, and I think this clarifies why Iain Glen said we have “15 hours” left, even thought it’s only 13 episodes.
About the short episode 4:
This battle on the other hand is an ambush of a supply train, it just doesn’t have the same emotional heft. The visuals will likely be fantastic, but from a story perspective, I am not sure that this will be that interesting.
Luka Nieto,
Episode 7 airs on my 50th birthday, so a couple of minutes of that is obviously going to be a fourth wall breaking rendition of happy birthday and a discussion of whether or not I look my age – sometimes I get so het up at events in GoT it may well have aged me prematurely! 😉 Although judging by the death rate I’ve probably already outlived the large majority of characters, so not all bad.
Lilani van Deventer,
Kay,
it’s cold out and they were in the pool
Luka Nieto,
Thank you!! <3
Lilani van Deventer,
Flayed Potatoes,
I couldn’t disagree more. It’s the complete opposite for me.
Markus Stark,
yeah, and it is possible that a lot of scenes are longer, so you cant really split them between two episodes… which is likely why we don’t have 8 episodes this year
On the bright side, that episode will be
😉
So even though the season is shorter they want to squeeze more bullshit than usual into it?
As for Blackwater….I hated Stannis so I wasn’t rooting for him. /hides
Everybody has to cover their spoilers! This is not a spoiler free-for-all post, you still have you use coding. Thanks!
Flayed Potatoes,
Sue the Fury,
Mine was meant as a joke, Sue, but come to think of it, it works better when hidden. 😉
Luka Nieto,
Blackwater doesn’t count since it happened in night ..
Considering its the only battle we will be getting like this in the series I hope its around 25 mins
Luka Nieto,
I agree. It will be like Brienne vs Hound
Luka Nieto,
Since I love Jaime (and Cersei as a character as well) I will be though.
Luka Nieto,
It’s also clear the Lannister/Tarly doesn’t stand a chance against 3 grown dragons. It’s really no contest. The visuals will be stunning though and I am curious to see how the dragons will be shot so I can have some idea how they might be filmed when fighting the WW army in season 8. I do wonder how Jaime will fight with his left hand…has he been practicing enough?
mau,
Yayyy so awesome!!! I was always thinking/hoping they’d do this. I mean isn’t it all just to big for 7 episodes anyway?! Hopefully we will get 7 worth of epis for the final season…
BTW I’m surprised by some of your (thankfully covered) comments. I hadn’t realized that the leaks even included what episode events would happen in (thought it was just an outline of the whole season like last years’ leaks). Actually… can you be sure whatever you’re talking about would be happening in ep4 anyway? Don’t they often move scenes from one episode to another during post? Wait don’t answer that – I honestly don’t want to know… :p
Flayed Potatoes,
Jon and Theon, few scenes at Dragonstone.
Citadel might be episode 4 but Jorah is supposed to be at Dragonstone in episode 5. It could be just Sam and Gilly.
These runtimes are so confusing. Does the runtime include the “previously on” portion of the episode? Also, there’s often trailers for other HBO programs before the episode that appear to count toward the runtime (on my phone at least).
Tycho Nestoris,
That’s a common misconception. As they are part of the episode, the opening and closing credits count. However, the “previously on” and the ads do NOT.
Tycho Nestoris,
It should include the opening & closing credits but absolutely nothing else (and I think those combined account for two and a half minutes or so?)
QueenofThrones,
Iirc the event/s happening in episode 4 was confirmed here on WotW itself, not just the leaks.
Luka Nieto,
There are no questions for me. I always know who I want to win.
Geralt of Rivia,
leaks
Leaks said Bran returns in episode 3 and Arya in 4. She seems to have stuff to do in the Riverlands. Jon leaves Winterfell in episode 2.
Yes that’s why I wasn’t sure about Jorah. We just know he gets cured before episode 5. And we still need to see Detective Gilly in action and verify if that part of the leaks is true lmao. I think the leaker said Sam and Gilly leave the Citadel in ep 5.
I’m hoping Jon has more than that one scene with Theon.
Luka Nieto,
Vigilist,
Thanks! I was just going off my phone which shows the episode timer counting down while the trailer plays. Based on what you wrote, I assume the timer in the HBO app is not the official runtime.
Flayed Potatoes,
Leaks
I’m quite excited about (Leaks:)
She’s just the perfect perceptive character for it and it would give her the poignant send-off she deserves.
By the way, are we going to have a chance to predict episode titles like last year?
This is the best news I’ve gotten this week.The last two episodes are gonna be amazing.I understand why the main characters spent so much time filming.They must have tons to do.
Lilani van Deventer,
My thoughts exactly.
81 minutes is officially movie length. That is craaaazy.
Clob,
I’m fine with that!
Gina,
Westworld and True Detective, both HBO shows, have both had 90 minute finales. I’m really hoping we’ll get that for GoT’s series finale next year (or in 2019, whenever we’re getting it).
Dee Stark,
Definitely.
Speaking of that, shouldn’t we be getting episode titles soon?
That is awesome news. 🙂
Somehow I always felt episode 7 would be around 80 minutes, but such long episodes for the entire season is just amazing.
Hype !
I think it’s funny that we were digging into this in the previous thread, Luka carried it to a new thread on the topic… and now there are like thirty articles so far about it out there. At least they’re crediting WotW. 🙂 It’s always interesting to watch how fast info travels these days.
Luka Nieto,
Speaking of certain events in Episodes 3 and 4,
Lilani is right–it’s not a high stake battle even if some of our faves might show up.
We saw alot about battles in the production photos–could we end up sufffering season battle fatigue? Do all battles look alike? With 50 minutes, too much action could smother the intimate scenes that may occur, which would be awful. And I’ll be furious if any reunions, esp of Starks, happen in that episode and get kinda glossed over. I be needing some feels, peeps.
Mr Fixit,
Boudica,
I don’t think any battle that may happen in season 7 will have less of an emotional connection than the Battle of the Blackwater for me. That isn’t to say that I didn’t enjoy it though. That’s my perspective only of course. There WAS a conundrum behind that battle. Most probably wanted Tyrion to be the victor but in doing so that also meant Joffrey and Cersei would win. I wasn’t a Stannis supporter typically in the story, but especially at that battle, so I didn’t care if he lost other than it again meant Joffrey won. So anyway, I’ll have more of an emotional connection to possible battle encounters this season than I did that battle.
They had to do a battle of this kind at some point during the season though. Greyjoys/Martells fighting Greyjoys doesn’t even feel like Daenerys’ fight. Just the Unsullied storming CR will be like a mild skirmish. Daenerys and the bulk of her men have to get dirty.
I wonder why a “torched” Kerry Ingram is listed as cast for season 7? http://www.hbo.com/search?type=schedule&focusId=799563
Markus Stark,
Now I’m sure the last episode will be at least 90 minutes long. There is no way they won’t make the show’s finale longest episode ever.
Mr Fixit,
But the weakened Lannisters is the plot point from the books. In the show they have the biggest army in Westeros.
Boudica,
People said the same thing about watchers on the wall and look what happened
Dead Dane Walking,
Clive Russell (Blackfish) and Art Parkinson (Rickon) are also listed. There might be even more “fallen heroes” among the cast list but those are the two names that jumped at me.
Flashbacks ? Bran-o-vision ? Copy-paste mistake by the unpaid intern who has to type the cast list for the HBO website ? Who knows…
Dead Dane Walking,
Everyone is listed there. It’s essentially the whole cast of the show, past and present. Pay no mind to it.
Given the amount of material that episodes 6 & 7 are supposedly going to cover, I’m not surprised they are going to be the longest episodes in the entire series thus far…
I further predict that the series finale will be around 90 minutes and the title will be A Dream of Spring.
I wonder when we’re getting episode titles for this season? Two weeks before the season seven premiere or so?
Mr Fixit,
Mr Fixit,
Be grateful you don’t know most of what’s going to happen, actually. Usually I don’t mind spoilers, but once I read the leaks I realized I had made a terrible mistake and would have been much better off NOT knowing…so much so that I made up my mind not to read any spoilers for the final season…
You’re in for a treat, I think. 🙂
I look forward to reading your unspoiled comments after the episodes…lol.
Sean C.,
In the show Robb defeated them in 4 battles I think. And Robb’s biggest victory was in S1 when he captured Jaime. And then there was the Blackwater.
But since s2 they didn’t participate in any battles if I recall.
mau,
Sean C.,
This summary seems accurate, though.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/House_Lannister#Military_strength
Is it book biased?
Since it’s gonna be tough to guess the titles (although…), let’s bet on when we’ll get them !
Probably when they’ll update the HBO schedule, I dont think they’ll bother with a press release for them (although…) so most likely a couple weeks before each episode I’d say.
The Sybian,
It is book biased. They never said in the show that they have 60 000 man.
ACME,
“…Copy-paste mistake by the unpaid intern…” – I was sort of thinking thinking the same, but who knows. As Luka Nieto is saying though:
…so probably nothing to speculate further into 🙂 Initially what actually caught my eye, was that I found it a bit weird to see Kit Harrington second to last, when every other main character is at the top…
First of all, Im delighted that we are getting the equivalent of 8 episodes. That eases my pain over the long wait for the shortened season somewhat. I can’t wait to see what this season has in store for all us true watchers, we’ve been so devoted all these long months.
based on your covered spoiler part, I’ll pose a question:
Oh, and by the way Dee, always happy to see you. I haven’t been on much these past weeks, but glad to see you are still around. 🙂
Thronetender,
That scene with Jaime will be in E3.
Dee Stark,
442 total hours = 10 hour-long episodes of broadcast TV shows with commercials.
#GlassHalfFull
#AlwaysLookontheBrightSideofLife
Oh, and no excuse for anyone to infect comments with uncovered “leaks” or spoilers.
🚱🚱🚱🚱
Greyscale spoiler coding is so easy to use, even a caveman could do it.
http://bit.ly/2s1oj6v
What?
Benioff said the finale is closing in near 90 minutes? 81 is not 90. Then Weiss said they have 2 episodes over 60 minutes. I thought episodes 3,6,7 are over 60 minutes? This doesn’t make sense. They also said Episode 4 will be the shortest episode ever.
Jack Bauer 24,
Maybe they are still editing.
Thronetender,
Said confrontation is in episode 3, if they haven’t changed it.
Jack Bauer 24,
Mccain will ask Benioff and Weiss and get to the bottom of this!
Great news! I’m glad I’m not the only one who records all the episode running times on a spreadsheet where I can calculate the averages and season totals (Luka, I’m guessing you do based on the impressive numbers you provided). At first I was puzzled why you said it will be about 7 hours and 20 minutes total instead of giving the exact number of 7 hours and 22 minutes, but with HBO’s rounding up for each episode, the actual time will indeed be closer to your estimation. Next… episode titles!
Jack Bauer 24,
Hibberd also claims the episode running times are a “leak,” even though they come from the official HBO schedule. They also don’t credit us for the find. So, I’d rather pay attention to what HBO officially says than a conversation Hibberd had with the showrunners a month ago, in which they’re obviously giving general figures anyway. I suggest you do the same 😉
You got me. I have a color-coded table with all the running times and the first airing ratings. I’m that kind of freak and I love it.
My head-canon for the 707 timing had been 75 minutes, so 81 is a nice surprise. With even the penultimate episode (with 706 as the equivalent of episode 9s in previous seasons) being so long, it looks like they are really trying to top the end of season six, which was stunning.
A shorter episode four doesn’t bother me – in fact, a shorter episode in the middle may help us all catch our breath. Weirdly, I find Winds of Winter (a much higher than average episode length-wise) flies by because everything flows so well, and some shorter episodes drag a bit. It isn’t just about quantity, it is about telling the story in the right amount of time.
Thanks for the clarification Luka 🙂
The Sybian,
No, that listing is inaccurate. It’s correct that the force Jaime took to Riverrun was on the small side, but that’s not the entire Lannister force. Jaime indicated in Season 6 that the Lannisters are still the largest army in Westeros in the show; in the books at this point they’re in third place, at best.
Mr Fixit,
You are right, maybe the Lannister’s use the biggest weapon they have against the Tyrell’s “Wildfire” bring countless jars with them and say if you don’t let us in we’ll blow you all up. The Tyrell’s will know how effective wildfire is from what happened to the sept of balor. So it’s basically like being threatened by dragons in chemical form. Just a theory.
Luka Nieto,
Slightly off-topic, but…
The under-repair, spammed Forum page has contained the message “Coming back SOON!” for quite some time.
As a leaks-averse “Show Purist”, I was hoping some of the brilliant discussions I’ve read in some of the Comment threads over the past several months could be continued on Forum pages. Otherwise, those discussions just kind of fizzle out when new posts appear.
I’d also like a safe place for us all to post our unspoiled tinfoil theories about the show’s “unsolved mysteries” and favorite characters’ fates, without diverging from post topics.
I am not complaining. This site is great. I’m just curious if the Forum section might be insulated from PutinBots, and back in operation before S7 starts.
Thank you and everyone else at WoW for everything you do! It’s made the long wait between seasons not only bearable but entertaining.
mau,
I cannot recall another battle involving Lannister-led Westerlands troops after season 2 either, I believe you are right.
However, just like season 6 helped us realise there was quite a difference between Northern army and Stark troops, season 7 (and / or 8) might establish the distinction between the Westerlands’ military power (the agregate of troops led by Westerlands’ lords) and the Lannisters’ own army… The Lions’ ability to raise and manage large troops from all over their region is directly linked to their financial ressources since, after all, armies march on their stomach.
Now, it so happens that the Lannisters’ mines ran dry years ago; the family is broke and has been living on money borrowed from the Iron Bank for years. Like Westeros’s central government itself. And possibly like the Tyrells, who have been footing the bill for the Crown since Margaery’s engagement to Joffrey, after Tywin realised that he could no longer afford to do so himself.
Picking Littlefinger as your financial advisor is a bit like sending your bank details to a distressed Nigerian prince.
Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, Jaime does not know (yet) that his House is bankrupt. So he may very well have believed, back in season 6, that they are still able to raise the whole of the Westerlands’ troops when, in reality, the Lannisters’ standing might be much more precarious. Did they forget to feed the dogs ?
ACME,
I don’t think he will ever get any other house from Westerlands. Except Claganes of course.
The math of the potential armies still confuses me; specifically how Cersei stands a chance in hell against Dany.
Cersei – Lannisters, KL Knights, Euron’s fleet.
Unknown – North, Sansa/Knights of the Vale
Obv Jon and Dany are family, but will Jon and North actually fight against Cersei? Or will they pull a Gandalf/5 armies and convince everyone the real enemy are the white walkers?
It looks the the finale isn’t the only episode to be “super-sized”. It’s a good thing not all of us come to conclusions based upon reading one article – especially one from James Hibberd.
Chuck,
The math of the armies hasn’t made sense for a while. One of the things that bothers me about Battle of the Bastards in particular is the complete lack of logic with respect to that.
mau,
I really hope we’re right.
mau,
I’m pretty certain that the full Tyrell army is larger than the Lannisters’, but if the Tyrells lose House Tarly, then the Lannisters would definitely have more.
This surprises me quite a bit. What do you mean? I thought the building of the armies on both sides of the Battle of the Bastards was surprisingly well set up and explained, throughout the whole of season six, more than ever before in the show. What was the problem? What didn’t make sense?
Geralt of Rivia and Flayed Potatoes,
Regarding the Citadel,
To: ACME
About the Lannisters’ insolvency and the Crown’s debt to the Iron Bank:
As Olenna reminded Tywin in S4e2:
“‘The Iron Bank will have its due.’ How they love to remind everyone. Almost as much as you Lannisters with your debts.”
I always thought the Iron Bank would have on retainer a specialized “Collections Agency” to refer loans to when friendly reminders of delinquent payments are ignored.
Think Robert DeNiro and Ray Liotta in “Goodfellas” (with a smidgeon of Clemenza from “The Godfather”):
Master of Coin: “Wars are rather expensive. Especially the War of the Five Kings. You’ll get your gold. The Lannisters always pay their debts.”
Jimmy: “F-ck you, pay me.”
Master of Coin: “You have to understand the Sept just blew up; our financiers died in the fire. It’s just a temporary cash flow blip.”
Jimmy: “F-ck you, pay me.”
Master of Coin: “Our gold mines production is a little slow this year. We’ll have your gold soon.”
Jimmy: “F-ck you, pay me.”
Master of Coin: “Well, we just don’t have it at the moment.”
Jimmy: “Oh, really? What are you, some kinda wiseguy ?”(*picks up nearby Lannister lion statuette and beats him to a pulp with it*)
“You tell those yellow-haired pussycats we’ll be back for our money tonight. All of it. Plus another 25% for this little stunt of yours.”
Master of Coin: “But, but…”
(*gets bashed again with lion sculpture; crumples to the ground with bloody face, cracked skull and broken jaw*)
Jimmy: “Now don’t make me hurt you…”
[As Jimmy’s about to leave, Hot Pie enters room with dessert tray, oblivious to battered Master of Coin on the floor and bloody lion statuette in Jimmy’s hand]
Hot Pie: “You sure I can’t get you some more pastries?”
[Voice of Jimmy’s accomplice, off-camera]:
“Leave the lion. Take the cannoli.”
Markus Stark,
No. It is confirmed in S6 that it is not.
When the show has walked off into the sunset, we will all remember that great line, “Leave the Lion. Take the Cannoli”! Nice job of screenwriting, TB. Miles of smiles.
About that actor list for Season 7 including deceased characters, I wager that it might be for a very elaborate “Previously, on Game of Thrones” segment. Perhaps more likely is a quick flip through Bran-o-Vision. One hopes that by the end of S7, Bran will have learned how to accurately access the index of his visions. Until he achieves more granular control, it’s use is somewhat limited.
The spouse and I are about to begin our first official re-watch (I’ve done two on the sly!), so pardon me whilst I head to Winterfell. Must get there before King Robert arrives. Cheers!
mau,
When was it confirmed ?
If so then that is yet another inconsistency.
In Season 2 it was clearly stated that the Reach had more men, and the point was made in later seasons that they hadn’t lost as many as the Lannisters.
Markus Stark,
It was stated that the Tyrells had the second biggest army when the Small Council was deciding how to stop Margarey’s “Walk of Shame.” The Reach was never said to have the most men. It was said that Renly had the largest army, which was comprised of both the Reach and Stormlands.
Markus Stark,
Did it say specifically that the Reach had the largest army or that Renly had the largest army? Renly = Reach + Stormlands. In S6, they said that the Tyrells commanded the second largest force, implying that the Lannisters commanded the largest.
In Season 6 Episode 7 Davos says that Jon has 2000 Wildlings, 200 Hornwoods, 143 Mazins, 62 Mormonts, for a grand total of 2405 men.
As we see in Season 6 Episode 9, none of the Wildlings are mounted. Jon has about 500 mounted men.
And within minutes, both the Stark and the Bolton cavalries cancel each other out.
Basically, about three minutes after the fighting begins, both cavalries are gone, and everyone is on foot.
Yet in Season 5 Episode 10, Ramsay’s entire army was mounted when they fought Stannis. Meaning that Ramsay has thousands of horses, and he has since made an alliance with both the Karstarks and the Umbers, who have the largest armies in the North.
Robb even says in Season 3 Episode 5 that the Karstarks are “almost half” of his forces. Robb has about 6’000 cavalry at that point. So there are what, 2’000 or 3’000 Karstarks ? Plus, they all went home at that point, and therefore weren’t at the Red Wedding.
So, to sum up : Ramsay has thousands of horses, about 2’500 Karstarks, thousands of Umbers, and the 5’000 men that the Boltons had in Season 5 (since his entire army was mounted, and Stannis’ entire army was on foot, it’s probably safe to assume that Stannis’ men didn’t kill more than a couple hundred Boltons at best).
In any case, Ramsay should have at least 2 or 3 times more men than Jon, and thousands of horses, against Jon’s cavalry of approximately 500, and 2’000 Wildlings on foot.
So, why did Ramsay not use all of his horses in Battle of the Bastards ? Why does he only use a tiny fraction of his horses when he could have easily decimated Jon’s army just like he decimated Stannis ? How is it possible that the two cavalries manage to cancel each other out ?
It makes no sense at all.
Markus Stark,
Or you took “half” too literally.
Aldebaran,
The Karstark army numbers don’t make any sense, even making allowance for “half” being an exaggeration. Ramsay has 6000 men at the BotB, of which around 5000 are Bolton men, meaning that the Umbers and the Karstarks together brought about 1000 men total.
Young Dragon,
Aldebaran,
You’re both right. For some reason I was remembering someone saying the Tyrells had 100’000 men (which the Wiki claims as well), but that was the total of Renly’s forces, including the Stormlords.
Still though, given the number of Lannisters left, the Reach should logically have more men at this point. They haven’t fought nearly as much, and they are much more populous than the Westerlands. I’m certain they have the largest army in the books.
But you’re right, “Book of the Stranger” does clearly say that as far as the show is concerned, the Lannisters have more.
Doesn’t make much sense, but whatever.
Aldebaran,
Or “half” is a word with a meaning and Robb speaks the language well enough to use it properly.
He very clearly said, “almost half our forces”. No matter how loosely you interpret the word “half”, they must have a lot of men.
And the point still stands that Ramsay seemingly only brings a few hundred horses to the battle with Jon, despite having thousands of them in Season 5 (which also made little sense).
Markus Stark,
It was confirmed in E4 of season 6 in scene with Kevan, Olenna, Cersei and Jaime.
And it was never stated in S2 that the Reach has the biggest army.
Ten Bears,
Ha ha ha ! I have no doubt the Iron Bank will come back to haunt the Westerosi.
mau,
There is quite a bit of confusion, in my mind at least, when it comes to what the members of Great Houses refer to when they talk about “their” armies. When the Tyrells talk about “their” men, do they mean House Tyrell’s direct bannermen specifically or all the (potential) soldiers of the Reach in general, most of whom depend from other houses (Florent, Tarly, Vyrwell, Ambrose, etc.) ? Same question for the Lannisters.
Colour me puzzled (I believe it is a lovely shade of puce)
Markus Stark,
Those are very fair points.
Could it be that at least some of the Umbers and / or Karstark troops decided not to fight against the Starks ? Soldiers are traditionally not housed by their lords so most live quite far away from their House’s seat, especially in the vast North. If some of them decided to stay home, I doubt the local lord would have the organisational means to round them up in a timely fashion.
Furthermore, considering the relative small size of the Starks’ army, the Umbers and Karstarks may have felt it was not necessary to send all their troops to battle. Why bother moving (and feeding) 8,000 men through the snow when the adversary only has 2,500 soldiers ? Just send a few hundreds of your guys, as a token of your fealty, and call it a day ^^
Ramsay’s cavalry is a tricky matter. It is of course all up to interpretation but, from what I remember of the battle’s visuals, I believe that most of Bolton’s riders were wiped off by… Ramsay himself. Shortly after he sent the cavalry charging and both troops collided halfway, he ordered the archers to “carpet bomb” the Stark half of the battlefield, where most of his own mounted troops stood.
I think the writers may have meant it as a way to show how crazed Ramsay was in his desire to annihilate the Direwolves. So intent was he to eradicate them, he was willing to damage, possibly immolate, himself in the process.
It reminds me of a quote from Gilda : “I hate you so much I would destroy myself to take you down with me.”
Markus Stark,
Differences between Ramsay’s horses in S5 and S6 are there because of the money not writing.
I agree that they said that Robb lost half of his army in S3 only to make him more desperate to make alliance with the Freys.
ACME,
I think it means all houses of the Reach. In S1-S3 Robb’s army was called the Stark army or Northern army. They never said the Stark and Bolton and Umber and Karstark’s army.
This is very welcome news. 81 minute finale! Stoked!
mau,
Yeah, someone else already pointed that out. I was mistaken.
It makes zero sense that the Lannisters would have more men, given that the Reach is much more populous and hasn’t fought any major battles, but you’re right, in the show, they do.
It would be odd for HBO to list the minutes, if they’re still editing.
How can the running times be a “leak” if they’re posted on the official HBO schedule? LOL.
I just noticed….WotW made it to the front page of Reddit with this post.
Last year we had two main trailer for season 6. Will we be getting another trailer????? Waiting!!!!!!
Wow, this is really good news! So excited… And what I am hearing about season 8, HBO people saying we will basically be getting a 6 hour Hollywood quality final season is amazing. Mostly because GoT is already Hollywood quality in many peoples opinion and season 7 will top that… Then season 8 will top season 7.
So yeah, our fandom is the luckiest fandom in the world right now, seriously.
We should all count our blessings and pray the spinoffs keep the same production crew and same high quality.
HBO found a gold mine in this Westeros fantasy world and if they keep bringing us an epic quality production the fandom will glue itself to the living room sofas every Sunday night to watch.
I hope other channels start producer their own adult fantasy shows, I know Netflix is making ‘The Witcher’, hope other shows start cranking out.
Technology is starting to allow affordable VFX that can bring what was once only affordable for movies to cable television now. So dramas that would need to incorporate fantasy elements can now be done realistically without breaking the bank.
Anyway, I am ranting now but the show length is really good news!
This is my first time posting and I don’t know how to create a thread or anything. But I just want to make a statement and ask a question. I think Tyrion and Sansa should end up together!!! I really do!! I would be thrilled if HBO has them end up falling in love and together. After all, Tyrion was always good to Sansa, he treated her well, and she has matured a lot since she was last in King’s Landing. The fact he is a dwarf should NOT impact their storyline (and if it does for anybody, then that’s discrimination and disgusting that you feel that way!) I only say that because someone I work with stated she can’t wait GoT because she has a phobia about dwarves. And I think it is ridiculous and disgusting of her. It’s no more acceptable than someone saying they have a phobia of Asian people. It’s discrimination. So ANYWAY… I hope Tyrion and Sansa choose to be with one another. Tyrion deserves happiness and I hope he finds that with Sansa, who he always treated well. So there’s my statement. Now my question: Does ANYBODY else feel the same way???
Markus Stark,
And when it was said that the Reach is more populous?
And Dorne hasn’t fight in any battles, but that doesn’t mean that they have the strongest army.
Sean C.,
What’s wrong with Battle of the Bastards math? Didn’t notice anything unusual there (aside from so few houses declaring for Jon, but that’s not a question of military numbers).
ETA: where do all these numbers about Boltons come from? Who says Karstarks weren’t already fighting with them against Stannis?
The Karstarks weren’t half of the total Northern forces, regardless of what Robb said in the movie (doesn’t he lose another important battle in the books before?). Maybe Robb was only counting his local army and not the forces under Bolton command at Harrenhall. I wouldn’t take their battle numbers too seriously.
Based on population I also guess that the Reach as a whole would have more soldiers than the Westerlands (surely Renly’s 100k men came from more than the Stormlands, and it’s unclear to me if only the Tyrell or the whole Reach fought against Stannis at the Blackwater) but in their days of wealth the Lannister could probably hire soldiers from all around Westeros, and in addition, their army has probably more veterans which gives them an advantage during battles.
Since I love talking about military numbers and other such silly stuff, I will try to make sense here of a) Bolton numbers; b) Lannister numbers; c) Tyrell numbers. Hopefully it makes some sense.
We know from the Battle of the Bastards that Ramsay’s army comprised of Boltons, Karstarks, and Umbers has around 6,000 men and that Roose had 5,000 against Stannis. As opposed to some other posters, I don’t see a problem here. The Bolton army that engaged Stannis may have well included Karstark troops in their number. There is nothing to contradict this and it would in fact be strange if the new Warden of the North had no one supporting him during the entirety of Season 5. So… 2-3,000 Boltons, the same for Karstarks, and then the Umbers bring additional, say 1-1,500 men in Season 6 and voila, numbers make sense.
As for cavalry depicted on screen at the end of S5… well, it’s a matter of resources, plain and simple. It’s easy to depict thousands of horses from distance; you simply can’t do it for a huge pitched battle, even with GoT’s budget.
Lannisters in the show started with 60,000 men, nearly half of which Robb promptly destroyed at the end of Season 1 when he captured Jaime. Tywin’s half wasn’t engaged in any significant battles that we know of besides Blackwater (which was a rout as soon as the combined Tyrell-Lannister army arrived). Therefore, Lannisters might easily have around 30,000 troops at their disposal.
Tyrells are very tricky. We know that Renly had 100,000 Reachmen and Stormlanders in his army, but we don’t know their ratio. Since the Reach is the biggest of the southern kingdoms and Tyrells are acknowledged on screen as the second richest family in Westeros, it’s probably safe to say that there are more Reachmen there. Maybe 60/40? (Likely more in the vein of 70/30, but let’s keep it simple.) When Stannis killed Renly, Tyrells were said to have fled, but we don’t know if that means their whole army or if some part switched over to Stannis (like in the books). If, and this is a big if, the majority of Tyrell bannermen supported Stannis and then exploded in a big green ball of death, it could kinda maybe sorta be expected that Tyrell are left with less than 30,000 men by this point. A lot of speculation here, but it does explain why Tyrells are less numerous than Lannisters.
Ugh, I haven’t engaged in these levels of nerdism in quite a while. 🙂
Wow, 81 minutes long episode. That’s like LOST season finales which were all 90 minutes long (or in case of series finale 105 minutes long) and those really felt epic because of that. And Westworld finale as well… I’m really looking forward to this.
Markus Stark,
The two cavalries cancelled each other out because Ramsay shot arrows at his own men and wasted his numerical advantage like a dumbass.
I suppose you can also assume that the Boltons, Karstarks and Umbers left some sort of garrison at the Dreadfort, Karhold and Last Hearth respectively in case the Wildlings try something funny. It’s definitely possible that the Karstarks and Umbers didn’t send all their soldiers to fight.
BunBunStark,
No spoilers please.
If I recall, Stannis loses all of his cavalry and sellswords before the battle for Winterfell. And the way I interpreted it, when I saw that Bolton army was on horses, was that sellswords with their horses simply switched sides, bolstering Bolton numbers. And it makes sense too. They were already in the middle of North, and would not get paid when Stannis loses, so they defect and walk up to Boltons to offer their services. They wipe the floor with Stannis, get paid, go home. By the time BotB takes place, sellsword cavalry is long gone.
Ella,
Welcome!
Sansa marrying (remarrying?) Tyrion in the end has been discussed several times here. I am one of the people who would like this very much to happen. This is also a valid solution, as The War of the Roses, the real history which inspired GRRM in creating the war between the Starks and Lannisters, concluded with a York princess marrying the first Tudor king (also a descendant of the Lancasters). There’s a good series about them, HBO’s The White Princess, with Michelle Fairley and Essie Davis (Lady Crane) – so, seeing two very talented GOT actresses is another of its qualities.
I don’t think Sansa and Tyrion would fall in love, but would rather learn to love each other and enjoy the same solid marriage based on friendship that Ned and Catelyn had. I know that in ASOIAF Tyrion is not handsome (I don’t think it’s very difficult to fall in love with Peter Dinklage if you spend time with him), but he is intelligent, pleasant and can be kind. And I think Sansa has had enough of beautiful, romantic princes!
That works too!
Seven 60 min. would have been 420 , so 442 is an interesting number.
We have no idea , except for totally general plot direction where the story goes … so it is intriguing since Dorne has been eliminated and there is zero Essos this season (I guess?)… cast of characters has contracted some what.
In fact just how much time can they spend at KL with only three upfront speaking parts and one wooden Indian. Are they gonna introduce some new character? Does not seem like it.
We know we will see Randyll Tarly but not clear Horn Hill will be any kind of setting at all. Still looking for a peek at James Faulkner ‘war’ costuming.
Westworld still has that 90 min. episode, so maybe such will be in season 8?
Mr Fixit,
Welpee, not the first time D&D have played fast and loose with numbers and logistics, at least George has way bigger numbers but even GRRM can’t keep all the battle hoopla sorted!
I haven’t read any of the comments yet but I did read the leaked plot spoilers last year and this new really excites me because it’s obvious there is a lot of stuff that will still be a surprise because what leaked was pretty lean (just general direction and a few key character arcs).
As I’ve said elsewhere I’m really starting to become excited about the new season and we must surely be close to episode one title and synopsis now.
Wolfish,
Most likely.
Dee Stark,
Can someone please explain to me the logic behind reading leaks and spoilers? Why would you want to know what’s going to happen,before it happens?
The Night King,
“Because it feels good”
– Cersei
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Re: Beginning your first official rewatch starting with Robert’s arrival in WF…
As a relative latecomer to GoT who bingewatched an HBO marathon of Seasons 1 + 2 before the start of S3, I remember the moment I got hooked on the show: When Arya’s arrow nailed the bullseye during Bran’s archery lesson, and the camera flashed over to her mischievously taking a bow before running away. Then her belatedly joining the greeting line wearing the oversized helmet, followed by her food-flinging at Sansa during the feast.
That all seems like ages ago….
I would love to have the last couple of episodes the series run time to be similar to that of a Sherlock episode ..
Shy Lady Dragon,
Slight correction: The White Princess is on STARZ, along with The White Queen from last year. Based on Phillippa Gregory’s novels. Both were good, especially Michelle Fairely’s Margaret Tudor. I recommend both.
George,
Good choice for next season 🙂
Hahaha I am sooo excited because I don’t know what to expect.
Yes, I should be in Oz’s threads after every episode!!!!!!!!!
Thronetender,
Thank you!!! Glad to see you also!!!!! 🙂
Dee Stark,
I am so happy you spoke up…I was reading along and jammed on the brakes. I miss posting and visiting as much as in the past, but I don’t want to be spoiled this season and I’m trying so hard….it isn’t easy, but just a little over a month and I can happily be back!
Luka Nieto,
Id love to see all the first airing ratings.
Ashara D,
I watch The White Princess on HBO GO on my computer. They also began advertising it on tv. That is why I mistakenly remembered it being an HBO show.
Aldebaran,
this is book cannon:
Army and Navy Strength
The Crownlands
20,000 Troops (4,000 Mounted)
210 Ships Royal Fleet
The North
45,000 Troups (13,000 Mounted)
Basic Defensive ships at White Harbour
The Iron Islands
25,000 men
400 longships
100 war galleys (Iron Fleet)
The Riverlands
45,000 Troops (13,000 Mounted)
Small coastal force based at Seagard, Barges, skiffs on Rivers
The Vale of Arryn
45,000 Troops (13,000 Mounted)
Small defensive fleet at Gulltown
The Westerlands
60,000 Troops (20,000 Mounted)
Field exceptionally well-trained pikemen, which can wheel on command
Coastal fleet of between 50 cogs, galleys and dromonds based at Lannisport,
30 ships based along the coast.
All coastal houses to have naval forces.
The Reach
80,000 (25,000 Mounted) Troops At exceptional need, this can be raised to 100,000.
House Redwyne consists of 200 warships,
The Shield Islands, the coastal houses, the Mander lords and the defensive fleet at Oldtown can all increase.
300+ Ships
The Stormlands
40,000 Troops (only 5,000 Mounted)
Well-trained, particularly those based on the Dornish Marches.
There is a small number of ships based around the coast and Tarth
Dorne
20,000 Troops
Briiliant SpearMen
Their horses are known as “sand-steeds” and are best-suited to light, hit-and-run attacks using horse archers.
Small Amount of Ship at Sunspear and along the coast.
The Night King,
I don’t know.. I don’t do it.. hahaa
mau,
Great answer LOL
elizabeth,
I know right????
HIII !!! Been so long! Welcome back 🙂
Shy Lady Dragon,
I really want Sansa and Tyrion together at the end.
I’ve suspected that Sansa was Cersei’s feared “younger, more beautiful queen” all along. Dany may die in the Great War, and then I could see Jon abdicating much like Aemon, and then Tyrion, as brother of Queen Cersei, assumes the throne if she and Jaime are both dead or deposed. Then Sansa would be Queen and take all Cersei holds dear (being Queen, Casterly Rock, the Lannister name…).
Clap clap clap!
Ten Bears,
Goodness gracious me, the Starks kids were obnoxious at the beginning of story ! There is no doubt in my mind Ned and Catelyn were loving parents but I am not certain they were really good ones. ^^
Ella,
I really hope this happens as well. I recently did a poll on the GOT Amino, asking whether Tyrion has been true to Sansa. 74 of 100 voters say yes, he is faithful to her (38 saying he remains true to his word and his vows; 36 saying he is too busy for sex). I think he has remained faithful to his vows, because that’s the type of person he is – even though Sansa was married to Ramsey. He is smart enough to know what really happened there, and smart enough to realize the power his marriage to Sansa holds (and everything that comes with it).
The books. The Reach is the second largest in land area but most populated region of Westeros, containing numerous large villages as well as Oldtown. The North is the largest in land area of course but it’s also the least populated due to the climate and terrain.
(waving to Ten Bears)
LOL. Little Miss Mischief must have given her parents, especially Cat, some headaches. 🙂 But notice how much everyone enjoys her hijinks. No hijinks now. Stark kids in the age of innocence. Sigh! Those left have certainly had to toughen up. The late Tommen and Myrcella didn’t seem too bad either, but focus was always on their parents.
We are through S1E3. The spouse commented how amazingly fast they’re developing the story. I enhance the experience by answering questions, pointing out things neither of us noticed all those years ago: foreshadowing, musical themes that get assigned to characters later, the odd behind the scenes titbit. Season 7 spoilers prohibited except for one–who’s going to obtain that exotic dagger.
I do hope you’ll read the books when the series ends. I hope that by then Winds of Winter will be out too. They’re much broader but also much much deeper, and George’s world-building is literally out of this world. Other than Season 1, which is 90pc by the book, the changes become increasingly substantial, both for good and ill IMO.
JPatch,
I have always thought that the younger, more beautiful queen is Daenerys, may she reach the end alive or not. But it’s interesting to think of your explanation. Indeed, to become a Lannister and Lady of Casterly Rock means taking everything from the proud Lioness. I’d like Brienne to become Lady of Casterly Rock and fulfill Tywin’s wish of suitable Lannister heirs 🙂 but I’m afraid it won’t happen.
MeeraReed,
I think Tyrion was too depressed to have sex 🙂 He liked the cute prostitute of Volantis, but he discovered that he couldn’t. In Meereen imo he chose to simply ignore the subject (although it had been a favourite activity, as he stated) because it would have brought painful memories.
A little correction. The North probably has the lowest population density, but I sincerely doubt it’s the least populated. It’s still a huge region, almost as large as the other 6 combined, so I’d guess it has quite a lot of inhabitants. Probably more than than every other region except the Reach, the Riverlands, and the Westerlands.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/614/729/e62.gif
ghost of winterfell,
i believe it will feature more locations. and at least another flashback
Stark Raven' Rad:
Ten Bears, I also exhort you to read the books. As I’m sure you’ve noted from many other comments, the general consensus is that GRRM faltered in Books 3 and 4; they’re certainly enjoyable for people who love the world-building (I’m one of those people), but he got lost in it… and you will too. Everything and everyone is more complex, more lush, more dark.
Shy Lady Dragon,
How about a proper Northern wedding at the heart tree north of Castle Black, with whoever is left of the Night’s Watch saying in gleeful unison, right before he kisses her, “And now his watch is ended!” 😉
Wolfish,
Absolutely beautiful! I’d like such a wedding for myself 🙂 – and I dislike cold and snow!
Ah that’s a good take, 8 episode season packed into 7. So basically it’s like a regular season minus two of the sort of slower episodes in the middle (though I usually enjoy all the episodes, even the slow ones, except for S6 of course =] ).
Dee Stark,
I have to smile at how protective everyone is for you! Probably coz u never complain are always sweet and are fun to read . Hopefully you will remain spoiler free all season!
Whats funny is that i have read some of the spooilers posted on this site and i am beyond excited to see how they will make this alll happen, with longer episodes to boot!
Lilani van Deventer,
I think the emotional heft will come just seeing all these dispearate characters fighting all at once!
Wolfish,
I assume you mean GRRM faltered in books 4 and 5. Most agree book 3 (a storm of swords) is the best of the bunch.
Honestly I’d advise Ted Bears to avoid reading the books until the series is over. It’s not going to be long now anyhow!
The Night King,
Because we like to drink wine and know things.
Yeah, this news has me jumping around. With basically 8 episodes and geographic concentration of characters (meaning fewer independent storylines), Season 7 hopefully won’t feel shortened at all.
With 6 episodes left in season 8, I wonder if we will see any more flashbacks. At this point does it make sense to show Rhaegar? Battle of the Trident?
I’m thinking we see the wall come down end of this season or early next season and the entire season is about the war for the dawn.
Where exactly did I spoil anything??
Yeah, but not in the show.
QueenofThrones,
Yeah, that was pre-caffeine brain fart. LOL.
Oz’s threads are the no-spoilers-no-books ones, right? I guess I will have to move my reviews there as well, considering I haven’t been following the filming news and that books are pretty much non-existant for me at this point (so no mention of them in my reviews).
I’m so happy I haven’t read the leaks… well, I never planned them to and I don’t see the point in reading them beforehand. I like to speculate a bit, maybe see some filming locations and stuff, but I don’t want any legit spoilers.
I hope I will manage to finish my rewatch on time… I still have 21 episodes left (and two Histories and Lore ones) and only 37 days left.
mau,
You’re very probably right. Thanks a bunch 😉
Ella,
First, welcome! There are no threads here; the mods put up the posts and we comment.
As to your question, I totally agree! Ive been hoping for that since Ramsey was killed. I think Sansa has grown up a heck of a lot, and realizes how lucky she was to be linked to Tyrion. (and seriously, someone has a phobia about dwarves? , I know people who are afraid of clowns, but they are just in costume. Dwarves are real people! Well anyway….I don’t think Sansa will have that problem.)
Why does’nt the fat git just finish writing the books… since 1996 I have been waiting.. everyone else is thinking it.
The Night King,
I don’t always like surprises, and get bored by mysteries. Sometimes I’ll reach a part of the book that I think I see where its going, so will read ahead to see what happens, then go back and see how it got there. Not sure why I do that, except it helps in the enjoyment of the story to me. (I also have gone ahead in a book if I am bogged down and want to know if its worth continuing to read). I only read GOT leaks and spoilers that appear on this site, and enjoy speculating with others how its all going to come together, which is why I read the covered spoilers (and agree with those who would love for the forums here to be functional). Again for me, it helps me enjoy the show. But I totally get people that want to be surprised and don’t want to be spoiled.
mau,
Hahahahaha!
Ella,
Hello and welcome Ella !
Show!Tyrion is indeed a rather wonderful, if deeply flawed, man and he does deserve happiness, which he may very well find with Sansa. Who knows ? I sure wouldn’t mind for them to be reunited in that way.
For the moment though, I would settle for them meeting again. I think it would be a profoundly telling encounter.
However, considering the destiny of the show’s characters are to a large extent dictated by that of their literary counterparts, things may not unfold as we wish in this regard. Book!Tyrion is nowhere near as charming or nice as Show!Tyrion. After the Sunset Girl “incident”, I have to confess I struggle to think of him as “deserving” any form of happiness. That is of course not to say he will not find some… Or redeem himself in some fashion.
Clob,
Yeah but in the show the Lannister mines are drying up while in the books are not,just an example of why something being in the books doesn’t mean it’s the exact same thing in the show,if it’s not stated in the show then it means it’s not true,sorry but that’s the end of story .
I think Cersei also suspected Margaery would be the“younger, more beautiful queen”. oh well. Now she will know for sure, with Dany coming to Westeros.
I’ve never believed that to be exactly true. I do believe they’ve tried to stick to many things, regardless what some think, but I understand numbers don’t mean much in the show when it comes to making it good and exciting. I didn’t read all the posts before commenting about The Reach, or the context. I just wrote what’s suppose to be according to the books.
On the topic, I’d written right away after last season that D&D are likely to fudge it so Cersei becomes quite a bit stronger; more support than expected considering what she’s done, greater numbers than is realistic and a manufactured weakening of Daenerys’ forces.
I read them purely because I am desperate to know where the story is going, I read them last year though and whilst I still remember the broad strokes I’m fairly happy I’ve forgotten plenty and there is enough to suprise me still.
That said, I’m going to avoid all major leaks next season.
Wow, looks like I’ll have to break out my Lord of the Rings catheter again! Huh, I hope that I remembered to clean it after Return of the King….
What pretty much rules out Sansa is the fact that Cersei suspected that it was Sansa. This prophecy is almost certainly Macbethian: Cersei’s adherence to the prophecy will help make it come true. And Cersei’s fixations on first Sansa and then Margaery have paved the way for Daeny to retake the throne for her family.
I do not think that they need to “fudge” it: the Lannisters and their many vassals still are a force with which to be reckoned. Moreover, they will be on the defensive: and that usually conveys substantial advantages.
Lord Parramandas,
Great idea!
Ha, I have 35 episodes left!!!
That’s fine Wimsey but it’s unlikely Dany will ever take the throne if you have read the spoilers, remember the house of undying dreams, read the books their is plenty to suggest it will never happen.
ash,
You are so sweet! Thank you!!
I have not read the spoilers, and I suspect that any reading of them to say that she will not win the war is misreading them badly. (Unless Daeny is killed this season, there is no reason to think that she will not “triumph” in the end: and as she is one of the two top protagonists in the series, she is not going to die this year.)
As for the books, most of the things from the books that people claim indicate that Daeny will not win in the end represent seriously shoddy thinking. There certainly is nothing from the House that suggests this.
So you don’t think her vision of reaching Kings Landing and then going beyond the wall and meeting Khal Drogo o the blue flower is a preclude to her fate? At this stage I would say it’s unlikely she ever wins the iron throne but until next season neither of us know.
Jon Snowed,
It only makes her greatest character and above everyone else becuase she chose to ignore the throne and set it aside and went to save the westeros when she can actually take the throne.she does it so many times yet not get credited enough .jon snow doesn’t count becuaee his one duty from book 1 is protect the realm as watcher and he is doing it.Stannis went to north when he didn’t have any other choice to do.
Sitting in the throne or not she will do her duty as Queen of westeros and save the realm and even may die for it …
if she doesn’t take the throne then its her decision not to take the throne not because she can’t take it or unable to take it..
Hmmm, I think we should have this debate after season 7 but how do you feel she will react when (assuming it does) she finds out Jon is the rightful heir to the throne and not her?
Yes, I think that this does foreshadow her fate. The Book!blue flower at the Wall symbolizes that Lyanna Stark’s scion is there. The show modified it: true love is at the Wall, which at that time was symbolized by Drogo. Moreover, that was also an important “temptation” scene: Daeny could do what she wanted to do (i.e., stay in a pleasant fantasy), or she could “wake up” and do what she needed to do. So, we simultaneously got symbolic foreshadowing and “The Last Temptation of Daenerys” all in one little scene.
But none of that says anything about her failing to defeat the Lannisters. Daeny will be the one to take it all away from Cersei: and a large part of that will be because Cersei’s actions to prevent Sansa or Margaery from becoming the “younger, more beautiful queen” paved the way for the YMBQ to overthrow her.
It still remains to be seen whether Jon is any heir at all: right now, we know (finally!) that he is Rhaegar’s son, but we have no indication that he is legitimate. For him to become unequivocally legitimized, Queen Daenerys will have to do it: and because she would be queen, Jon would become her heir. (And, no, Robb’s Decree is not worth anything more than a self-cleaning tool after using the chamber pot.)
My bet is that given how similar the two of them are, they will hit it off like a house on fire. Again, I think that the House of the Undying scene foreshadows that, at least for Daenerys. But going beyond that, there are so many strong parallelisms in how both characters have evolved over the series in both media, that if they had mutual friends, then those friends would be saying “You have got to meet Jon Snow/Daenerys Targaryen: you two would be perfect for each other!”
Thanks for the very thought through response Wimsey. How the two biggest protagonists of the story get on is of real interest to me and I would love to discuss this more once season 7 has aired. I just don’t see how both Dany and Jon survive the whole story, will they conflict, fall in love or simply be amicable? I can only see one of them on the throne perhaps neither at the end.
Daenerys will not let “I don’t want to be Queen” let her fail her moral obligation to become Queen. One thing that we need to keep in mind is that these characters use a very different value system than we do. Given the moral (“honor”) code of the Westerosi, it would be immoral (= dishonorable) for Daenerys to not retake the throne or die trying.
A good comparison here is Edward VII. Today, it is all too popular for people to romanticize what he did as giving up something “desirable” (who wouldn’t want to be king?) for something higher: “true love.” However, at that time, his actions were considered an abrogation of duty in order to pursue pleasure. Yes, he might have wanted Wallace Simpson: but as the first born of the King, Edward needed to put that aside for his duty to his family and his country.
In this sort of system, you do not get to “want” to be monarch or “not want” to be monarch: if you are the heir, then it is your moral obligation to put aside your “not wants” (if they exist) and due your duty.
At any rate, Daeny has passed the “do not want” test. In a way, that is what her scene with Drogo beyond the Wall showed: she could stay in the comfortable, happy fantasy, or she could get going with what she needed to do. The books gave us something similar at the end of Dragons: there, Daenerys admits to herself (and that sometimes is the most difficult person to make such admissions!) that she had procrastinated at Meereen because she was tired and postponing fulfilling her dynastic obligations.
Jon Snowed,
Jon can be rightful heir for all to know but that doesn’t change the fact that dany controls the major powers dragons ,dothraki and unsullied and alliance of southern houses ..
Of course you would think that she will not like jon having a claim above her and fight him for it …but unfortunately that’s not her character she never cared about the IT but for a home and family and she will be happy when she learns she has someone who can be her family ..
And as wimsey pointed her accepting Jon snow removes the doubts from people mind
You have read the leaks right you knpw how the season is going to turn out. .
Let’s just say dany learns about the truth of WW and put aside the throne and marches for North and get together with Jon. .
And let’s say than she comes to know about Jon’s parentage
What do you expect her to do suddenly back away from dealing with WW and start focusing on killing her nephew ??is that how you think it will play in the last season ..
Wimsey,
I actually agree with you but I think her actions will lead eventually to the throne and temporarily halt going after it because there is great threat coming on their way and she wants everyone to be stay united ….
The leaks only make me believe her chances of survival being increased
Well, I only watch one a day (my personal rule) and then I need to update my “Characters apperiances” list after every episode. And apart from that, I haven’t even finished my LOST rewatch which has been going on since November 7th, with 11 episodes left… and there comes Memory Lane post (or a video) for every episode I watch… so I’m quite busy in general even when it comes to TV series.
I disagree. I believe they DO need to fudge it considering the existing circumstances where we left off. This is beyond the books so the numbers, allegiances and situations should realistically be subject to change as a result of events that have occurred. Cersei blew up the f’n Sept that not only contained many lords and ladies of several minor Houses but also prominent members of Great Houses, including Kevan from her own House.
Support outside of House Lannister should already be razor thin, and even quietly within their ranks there should be some dissension. The Riverlands armies are already split. The Frey men were worthless before and now they’ll be neutered without a strong leader. Dorne and The Reach should be united against Cersei due to her actions and previous actions of her family, especially when their liege lords are supporting Daenerys. Euron didn’t realistically have the men or the resources to build a massive fleet in a few months. The North isn’t joining or supporting Cersei, nor is the Vale at this point. The farmers, peasants, merchants should despise her.
So no, the way things should be is Cersei’s army almost primarily consisting of the Lannister army with supporting numbers from a ‘handful’ of Houses. While it was previously the largest army in Westeros it should still be outnumbered in troops by Daenerys’. That isn’t even counting any more troops she’s acquired or can/will acquire from Westeros itself. Even if the sides were equal in men that should change quickly with help from Daenerys’ “air force.” They can hold up in defensive positions but that’s just delaying the inevitable.
They do need to ‘fudge’ with the story then to make it fair (and entertaining). They need to make things happen that most likely wouldn’t happen and some things that couldn’t. When I say that I’m including several things while also not discounting ridiculous strategic decisions by Daenerys and her advisors.
Book-Euron is rather ineffective when we left him beyond his usual raiding and pillaging pirate techniques. He’s still banking on joining Daenerys, temporarily at least. In a short amount of time show-Euron apparently and miraculously builds an impressive fleet, mans it with numbers he shouldn’t have and effectively snuffs out the Greyjoy and Martell/Dorne contingent of Daenerys’ army. That’s a whole mess of fudge.
Arya (supposedly) essentially eliminates House Frey entirely. One would assume those actions would result in few or no supporting forces joining Cersei, especially if she frees Edmure and he takes control. In that case I’d expect an alliance with Jon and The North. It’s not realistic to provide a large number of troops to Cersei from The Riverlands. Will they write that in anyway? If they do that’s a pan of fudge as well.
Daenerys’ army and dragons shouldn’t have a problem on their own if it’s approached properly. They’ll have even less of an issue without opposition from The North or The Vale. So fudging with numbers and dumb strategic decisions is what we’ll get so this thing is a war and not a fairly simple takeover. I’m not saying I have a problem with them doing it, or George doing it in his books eventually, just that there has to be quite a bit of manufactured material to make this war an even fight.
Wimsey,
If we look at the situation from Daenerys’s perspective, I agree wholeheartedly with you. However, if we detach ourselves just a bit from her native viewpoint, things get slightly murkier.
Contrarily to what Daenerys asserts, Robert Baratheon did not “usurp” the throne. He won it. At the end of a war unofficially declared by the Targaryens themselves. The Dragons were deposed, like so many other dynasties. As such, Daenerys’s claim of birthright over the Seven Kingdoms is a tad shaky at best.
Her coming back to Westeros, asserting the throne is hers by right of succession, would be a bit like a member of the House of Valois entering the Louvre twenty years after the end of the War of the Three Henrys and demanding that Henry IV of France give him/her the throne. I believe “Good King Harry” would have answered something like “Tough titties, luv’ ! The Valois are finished. I won. It is Bourbon time now !” (I am not certain he would have been that rude but the sentiment is, I believe, accurate ^^)
Clob,
I don’t think George will do it like the show and that’s why I think he has invented YG so he will weaken the forces that are untouched so far like Dorne ,Reach and by the time dany comes Cersei and euron will have suffered through even more losses than they are now and dany will be able to quickly put and end to them…
although in the show it may be Tyrion’s idea ..
Or I may be wrong and end up disappointed for getting my hopes up ..
dragonbringer,
Yeah.
There’s also the matter of that stupid horn in the books. So far there’s no sign of it on the show, thankfully. We don’t know how that will come into play in the books but without any of those possibilities, along with the absence of Young Griff’s storyline the balance of everything is actually a bit more distinct. I don’t desire either of those elements on the show but it does perhaps make the war we’ll have on the show a bit more clear. If their goal is to make it realistically even between the sides then ‘clear’ isn’t what they want. Without a magical trump card (horn) or a third side of the war it’s simply an outnumbered army of men against the greater numbers and three dragons. That’s a reason why I say they have to purposely write it so that it is a struggle by Daenerys’ side like making errors that probably wouldn’t be made and the Lannister side having an endless amount of men that’s not suppose to be questioned.
Wimsey,
Of all the scenarios I’ve seen spun thus far, I like this one the best. I took Mirri Maz Duur at her word when she implied that Daenerys would never bear another child (I forget the exact phrasing); making Jon her heir would, in effect, leave her free to rule with the stipulation that upon her death the throne would pass to Jon or his oldest child.
Wolfish,
Slightly off-topic
But it’s interesting how in the show MMD never implies that, yet Daenerys still believes that she cannot have children.
Show version:
This is not life. When will he be as he was?
When the sun rises in the west, sets in the east when the seas go dry. When the mountains blow in the wind like leaves.
Book version:
“When will he be as he was?” Dany demanded.
“When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,” said Mirri Maz Duur. “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.”
– AGOT Daenerys IX
Jay Targ,
Hmmm… As a book reader, I’ve encountered this problem before, where I conflate similar scenes and forget about things excised from the show. That is interesting indeed. Thank you for the direct quotes!
I will not discuss the leaked outline (I am trying my best to forget parts which I read last year) however I expect Dany to have an internal conflict. All her adult life she’s wanted the iron throne and had a huge entitlement complex, if she finds out she’s not the rightful heir that’s going to seriously screw with her.
I am trying to avoid leak speak but my belief is they do not confirm anyone living/or dying only the broad outline and plot twists. I fully expect a fair bit of stuff to have been missed from that.
I guess we can talk Young Griff as he’s not going to appear in the show but I’m more or less convinced now that he doesn’t survive Winds of Winter and his sole role to be an obstacle either for the Lannisters or Dany before those sides clash. I certainly do not see him taking the Iron throne.
dragonbringer,
Do you have inside information about how this story will end? 🙂 It seems you know for sure about one particular character’s mindset from beginning to end.
Jon Snowed,
A very poor reading of the character and chapters then again that’s not surprising coming from a entirely biased and self admitted skipping of dany’s chapters while reading …
I see you have now settled with dany dying in the end after realising that Jon Vs dany won’t be happening
LadyMorley,
You only have to read what 5 books of chapters and watch 7 seasons of a 8 season series to know how a character will react and behave …you don’t need to know the ending for that ..
I think that Ned & Robert offer the parallels here: they will be sitting on their thrones, but living unhappily ever after. I think that Ned’s case will be particularly relevant: we now know that he sacrificed considerable public honor (particularly in his own mind) and private honor (lying and making your wife unhappy both are dishonorable as a general rule) in order to uphold different private honors (protecting an innocent, protecting the memory of his sister’s honor and upholding a promise to his dead sister.)
To that end, my bet is that whatever Jon & Daenerys opt to do regarding the White Walkers, they will be forced to choose among “bad” choices that all offend him/her in some way. It’s not so much that they will be wishing that they made another choice (any more than Ned did): but they will spend their lives wondering “couldn’t there have been another way?” as Ned probably did. Moreover, they probably will not be able to share their personal justifications for why they did what they did. That sort of regret is particularly hard to overcome. After all, unless two future versions get together and open up the possibility of some serious time-distortion, you just get to live with the pain.
But I think that this is the other key thing to remember: as Robert shows us, gaining the crown is not a reward and does not mean happily-ever-after. Thus, Martin’s promise of a “bittersweet” ending in no way precludes Jon & Daeny surviving and even surviving & ruling together. If the show & books do it right, we should glean that they will have survivor’s guilt up the wazoo till the end!
The other thing to remember is that our modern version of an “entitlement complex” did not exist in that world. If one of us magically appeared in Westeros and told Daenerys or Stannis or anyone in a related position that they were acting “entitled” to claim the Throne/lordship/whatever, they would write you off as someone with no sense of honor or morality. Daenerys is not “entitled” under the modern concept: she is entitled under the concept that give rise to the etymology: her title obligates her to do this. Because this sort of society puts much less emphasis on the individual than does ours, our modern sense of “entitlement” would be used for someone like Daenerys who felt “entitled” to live her own life rather than further the fortunes of her family. In other words, what we call “selfish” would then be called “unselfish” and vice-versa.
Indeed, this is the crux of Daenerys’ “kill the girl, let the woman be born” in Dragons: she admits to herself that she’s been procrastinating because she’s simply tired and does not want to rally herself to do what needs to be done (retake Westeros for her family’s honor).
Upon reading “TP&tQ” and “The Rogue Prince” (as well as the Targ blatherings in “TWoI&F”), one gets mighty nauseas at the amount of idiotic entitlement that gets tossed around by the Targs and their various familial extensions. Their demise (as well as their dragon’s demise) was the result of their own elitist, egotistical, nepotistic attitudes and internal skirmishes, not just ‘magic’ leaving the world. Hopefully, Tyrion and show!Varys continue to blast some historical sense into their leader (perhaps stories about a certain ‘Egg’?) as they approach Westeros, countering the inherent/default attitude and decisions that decimated Dany’s forebears.
Perhaps we can wonder if the speculated Dany vs Cersei is actually Dany facing her deluded/mad father?
This is kind of how I have interpreted the bittersweet ending thing – that those who survive will live on, but will need to do so with the pain of what it has cost them, and the pain of living on without those who do not survive.
There are so many parallels between Jon and Ned, and I really think this could end up being another. Ned survived Robert’s Rebellion, but lost his father, brother and sister and spent the rest of his life haunted by their loss. I truly think that the Ned Stark we meet in season one is someone we understand more for the Ned Stark we meet in season six.
Then there are Thorne’s last words to Jon about fighting other people’s battles forever – I wonder if those words will become prophetic, and if Jon will survive but never truly know any sort of peace. He will never be able to go south and get warm – there will always be wars to fight, grievances to settle, lands to rule.
That is precisely what made Stannis’s meeting at the Iron Bank both so funny and so catastrophic, I think.
On one side of the table was a man who firmly believed that, by virtue of his birth and his birth alone, he had the inalienable right (and duty) to rule over millions ; on the opposite side sat descendants of escaped slaves, men whose good fortune stemmed from their ancestors rejecting the status given to them at birth.
The perfect recipe for a failure to communicate… Until self-made man and pragmatist extraordinaire Davos intervened.
Incidentally enough, the dichotomy highlights a form of inconsistency in Daenerys’s mindset. She both rejects the notion of a birth-given status (when it comes to slaves, whom she wants to free) and upholds it (when it comes to her own inheritance of the Iron Throne). One cannot be born to serve but one can be born to rule… Peculiar.
Ha ha ! So very true !
Their brand of entitlement is also what led them to the practice of extreme endogamy, with all its dire consequences.
But, again: yes, it looks “bad” to us in the modern world, but people 500 years ago would have thought us immoral for holding these views. (Treating women as people, not stoning gays, assuming that intelligence is not linked to class & skin-color, separation of church and state, or thinking that economies driven either by labor or capital rather than by land-ownership all would have been though degenerate, too!)
Look at it this way: for all intents and purposes, the “evil” characters in Tolkien verse were the people who thought things equivalent to “The Targaryens are self-entitled prigs!” 😀
Unless you view ruling as serving your people. There are two aspects of rulership. One is the Disney Prince & Princess, who get the fancy balls, fancy clothes and unrotten food. The other is the 70 hour work week and the question “when does a week end?” Of course, a lot of bad rulers skip the latter for the former. However, Daenerys is not shaping up to be one of those.
Or, as the Onion put it so well 8.5 years ago: America dumps it’s worst job on a black man…. 😀
Daenerys is in no way, shape or form work-shy, that is entirely true. If anything, she is one of the most dedicated and focused characters in the story. But we have not witnessed a lot of policy-making from her.
Every time she conquers a place, she very rightly destroys the existing social contract, ie. slavery, but replaces it with nothing of substance aside from herself and her “Leviathan” (the dragons). She does not create institutions nor does she draft any kind of new political regime that is not a straightforward autocracy. And here, it is not a case of the show cutting some corners and removing plot points pertaining to the everyday grind of policy-making. On this front, Book!Daenerys has not fared any better than her television counterpart, I fear.
Now, one may say that she does not wish to impose anything because she wants her people(s) to decide for themselves, to self-determine after her departure. That is a generous thought but, if true, it is a disaster in the making for the newly-created citizenry of Daenerys’s cities is a bicephalous entity. On the one hand, we have the former slavers who still concentrate the overwhelming majority of the cities’ wealth, property and educational resources; on the other hand, we have the former slaves who are, for most of them, poor, deprived and under-educated (illiterate in many cases).
The underlying, structural power balance between these two groups is grossly skewed in the former slavers’ favour and none of Daenerys’s few policies has ever rectified that. No State-mandated redistribution of wealth to even out the discrepancies inherited from centuries of economic exploitation, no educational program focused primarily if not exclusively on former slaves and their children to counterbalance the former masters’ advantage…
Thus, letting these peoples create their own institutions without any supervision amounts to giving free reign to the former slavers since they are the only group with the money and the political know-how. A quick look at how black people were treated in the southern states of the US for more than a hundred years after the Civil War (in spite of the north looking over the former confederates’ shoulder) might be a good indication of things to come for Daenerys’s cities, I am afraid.
The Mother of Dragons has left (and in the books, will probably leave) Meereen with the Dothraki, the Unsullied and her “children”. The Leviathan is gone and with it, the authority of the State. The future of the city now rests on the shoulders of the Second Sons, a group of soldiers used to fighting for whoever gives them money. As mentioned before, the former slavers have money, the former slaves not so much…
I may be cynical here but I sense a problem.
I agree wholeheartedly with you : when done properly, politics is a grind. Dante’s Inferno does not have enough circles to make up the Venn diagram of complications and catch-22s this job entails.
I would love for Daenerys’s chapters to read like the most exciting yet hellish political science primer ever written, complete with dragons, dynasties and Dothraki. They could be full of State-building and institution-creating and social contract-drafting and dragons and dynasties and Dothraki. But they are not… aside from the dragons, the dynasties and the Dothraki 😀
ACME,
Totally agree with you here – she’ s great at conquering, and in freeing people, but after that, she has little to no training or experience in how to put something in place that will replace what was taken. IIRC the cities she freed before Mereen fell back into slavery soon after she left. Fortunately Tyrion, who does have some experience with ruling or at least guiding policy, might fix that; unfortunately he is also with Dany and Varys. So who is left to keep the place from being a Harpydom….??
I’m trapped in the hypocrisy of the modern-day reader! Ahhh!
But was that GRRM’s intent when writing this fiction? He operates in the modern-day world, and wants his readers to apply their modern-day viewpoints onto his medieval perspective, right? Should they leer and seethe appropriately when reading these accounts or must we inversely break the 4th wall and accept the attitudes and perspectives of the depicted times? Did you do that for B5 or did B5 simply apply current day tragedies and sensibilities to a future setting? Did I accept the Logan’s Run concept of a 30-year lifespan, or any dystopian concept for that matter, without discomfort? I don’t know if that is possible.
I can’t help but feel that there is some Dany bias in some of the responses on here – I’m not saying that to start a flame war but trying to look objectively. As others have pointed out she’s not my favourite character although there are others who I dislike far more.
I have a friend who has just started watching the series (amazing I know) and currently on season 4 his completely unsullied prediction is that Dany is the big bad at the end and not the white walkers. I don’t believe that will happen but in my opinion she is a partially flawed character that could go bad in some way. She does generally mean well though and has progressed from vulnerable young girl to power hungry but socially conscious invader.
As I’ve stated above the key for me will be how she reacts when she realises that she doesn’t have the clear claim to the throne and that there are other things more important out there. It’s probably not a spoiler to suggest she will play some part in the war with the others but under what context and how much persuading will she need as I don’t think it will be an easy decision for her.
YG’s ambitions in Westeros are an interesting preview of Dany’s forthcoming invasion. He’s currently occupying Storm’s End and is probably headed to KL or Dragonstone soon. Varys is paving the way for him in KL but are YG/Jon spreading their forces too thin? Will Dorne support him? Is he the son of Rhaegar or a long-lost Blackfyre (as his alliance with the Golden Company suggests) or something else?
A battle to take/defend KL is forthcoming even before Dany arrives. In fact, if Dorne and the Redwyne navy (and the Tyrell army) get involved, there may be a full-fledged Blackwater++ battle going on as Dany arrives with her air force, army and navy. What a hoot that would be! Who would support whom? An amazing WTF factor awaits those who seek and defend the iron throne! (even before Jon and Co have a chance to deal with them).
The show will be simpler…(thankfully?) 😉
To respond to your assertion, I hope YG does get to KL but he may have a come-to-R’hllor moment as he faces a vicious wildfire-wielding Cersei and a dragon-riding Dany before he succumbs. He (or the GC) may even consider aligning with Dany if they survive. Should be ridiculously crazy in KL…it’s possible that no one will even notice that the dead have arrived from the north!
Hodors Bastard,
He wouldn’t even be alive to meet dany ..
People are expecting him to strike KL similar to how they wanted renly or stannis or Robb to attack KL but no one did and stannis failed at it ..
YG will be sidetarcked like the other characters and go to reach thus fighting Euron and greyjoys and tyrells with the dorne. ..iam sure cersei will make some plan to have reach fight the YG .
Jon Snowed,
Its certainky bias I agree but its bias against dany ..I do remember your theories from westetos.org ..you too thought that dany will be big bad and jon will battle her to stop her ..
Those points that you are saying that she is power hungry is what most of the fans is complaining about how show is making her more of Viserys and aerys instead of rhaegar ..she doesn’t fight for power but chooses to fight for people because of having a power..that’s why I reminded you of not reading her chapters. .
Having a claim doesn’t mean much …viserys had a claim too …dany is Queen in her own right ..
You have repeated the events of HOTu vision many times how it shows she will never take the throne and die at wall..
I just like how you keep downplaying the event of her not taking the throne based on the visions and I should say you sound more hopeful that she dies and never take the throne..
If you look at that vision again its there for her taking but she chooses to not take it go north ..And thats what going to happen in the coming season as well..
Hodors Bastard,
I like how you are making it out to be only a Targaryen thing .
Its not just Targaryens acted that way …all the major houses and smaller houses have been the same in westeros ..even the saint tyrion feels entitled to castetly rock ..
And the most annoying thing is dany or atleast book dany doesn’t act that way at all yet being accused of it ..
That’s all a fair call Dragonbinder, I try to be objective with all my views and I did think Dany could be the big bad but changed my mind, I find it interesting though that other unsullied show watchers have the same feeling.
I actually liked watching/reading Dany in the early part of the story though, just for balance:)
Jon Snowed,
I don’t find fault in finding dany that way based on the show alone …where she is mostly one dimensional and icy and entitled and more like viserys..and we dontget to have her inner thoughts like in the books..
The show seems to make these women characters( sansa,arya and dany cersei,ellaria) do vile things and be smug about it and think it as being badasss..
Hodors Bastard,
I think thats an interesting question and one that can be asked of any fiction which takes place in our past. I think its possible to keep the prevailing mores of the time in our head as we are reading, but its not possible to totally forget the ones we live with now. The hardest thing for me about reading the books was how young everyone was, because in my world, children stay children much longer and should not suffer trauma like that (the fact that they do is anyway in our world is one of our great tragedies). I did have to adjust to the mores from the book if I was going to be able to read it. So its a battle we all work out in our heads I guess.
My discomfort with this became much stronger the last time I watched the movie in my 50s!
Actually, my perspective is exactly how the Targs are written…they were so proud and deluded, they lost it all very violently…almost Shakespearean. And to some extent, they should be expected to behave that way…with their dragon accessories and all. But once their cool pets were gone (via their own irresponsible doing!!!!!) their downhill slope was inevitable, with King Egg being one of the few positive aberrations. Of course all houses have their pride, but the Targs excel at it. (the Lannisters come a close 2nd) 🙂
Regarding Dany, for most of her young life, she has been influenced primarily by her brother, Viserys, who was another fine example of deluded Targ pride. Dany even assumed a Targ stance by approving the “golden crown” that he ultimately received. (I even think that Viserion will be the first dragon casualty in order to further that metaphor!)
BUT, Dany has since maintained an interesting internal battle of instinct, cursed expectation, assertiveness, emotional balance, savior, and mother…all during her teens! She has grown indeed! Fortunately, she has surrounded herself with good advisors (book and show) but I’m sure her Targ tendencies will be tested in the future. Her last chapter in ADwD was a perfect example of her internal struggle of what kind of Targ she should be.
I don’t hate on Dany, I am fascinated by her ‘east-then-west’ arc. I just know what I’ve read about her ascendants.
That stance was just as “Lannister” as it was Targaryen: I mean, what could be more Lannister than death by gold? Similarly, the “deluded pride” is ubiquitous among the Westerosi nobility: it’s not just the Lannisters, but the Tyrells, the Greyjoys, the Baratheons, etc. We see it among the Essosi nobility, too, despite a much smaller sample size. Come to think of it, we see it in the Dothraki and the Wildlings, with their derision of warriors in steel shirts or kneelers. It’s almost like it’s some sort of general human trait!
As for the influences in Daenerys, yes, Viserys was the primary influence on her in early life. However, insofar as we can tell, most of her evolution as a person began very late in Viserys life, and continued after he died. It’s sort of like looking at the evolution of organismal complexity: 85% of the time influencing it never got it based very simple multicellular organisms, and the last 15% saw the explosion of the diversity & disparity of forms that we have today. Viserys is Daeny’s “Precambrian” (OK, pre-Vendian for those of you who split hairs, er, flagellae….): and what we’ve seen in the books is her Phanerozoic diversification.
It seems to me that GRRM takes great pains to lay out the moral codes of the general societies and of the individuals in particular and that he expects us to keep these in mind when evaluating what the character’s do. It’s pretty instrumental to the stories: we have to understand why Jon or Daenerys or Tyrion would feel that the “right” thing to do is X not Y on one hand, but Y not X on the other hand. And we cannot be holding it against them that they do not choose “Z” when either all of their values say “that is wrong” or when it’s a concept that they do not have.
To this end, there is no viewpoint in the books that people like Daenerys or Joffery or Stannis are “self-entitled” (under our anachronistic view of the concept) when they claim the throne. Indeed, the reason why people assume that Daenerys or Stannis will try to take the throne is because it’s exactly what they would do in their situations. This comes up in particular with regards to Stannis: people might think that he’s wrong about Joffery being Jaime’s son, but everyone knows that Stannis thinks that this must be true, and that if Stannis thinks that this is true, then he’s going to try to depose Joffery. Similarly, Daenerys is the last of her family: and (as Tywin, Ned, Tyrion, Catelyn and others all note in different ways), good people do everything in their power to uphold their family’s honors and fortunes. It’s not taking the crown that is “self-entitled”: it’s running off with Wallis Simpson that is “self-entitled!”
I must admit that I ‘age-them-up‘ in my head in order to tolerate their traumatic existence. I thought GoT was wise in doing so as well. GRRM once said what an incredible challenge it was to write a macabre chapter from the perspective of an 11-year-old girl. Mercy!
It’s an interesting irony that GRRM never had kids yet his lifetime masterpiece is driven by youth in a bleak world. I do enjoy interviews where he waxes rhapsodic on his own youth in Bayonne, NJ and how it influenced his tales.
I can’t argue with that. However, how did you feel after reading TP&tQ? Didn’t you think that GRRM intentionally painted the Targs as the obnoxious, careless, self-entitled leadership destined for implosion? He wanted to give the reader an insight into their delusion and irresponsible actions, probably as a cautionary tale for the advent of Dany and the future she faces.
When reading D&E, Egg often serves as a humble observer of his family’s excess. At least in youth (with Dunk by his side), he holds a fascinatingly modest perspective that counters the prevailing attitudes, which probably will continue as he becomes Aegon the Unlikely.
Daario…
On the show, what is left of Daenerys’s State in Meereen is some random dude in a pyramid. A random dude with no political background and whose sole qualification is that he used to be the Queen’s friend with benefits. As of right now, in TV!Meereen, the political regime is “Toy boy-in-ancient-architecture-o-cracy”. And on that sound basis, the former slaves and slavers of the city are expected to cooperate and build a Jeffersonian democracy.
I have some reservations ^^
Now, it is to be noted that, in the books, Daenerys may not chose Daario as her successor to overview the city’s politcal awakening. However, the Mother of Dragons will have to depart Meereen sooner rather than later (first third of Winds of Winter ? First half ?) which means that she will have little to no time to set up any kind of institution of note, even if she wants to.
I seriously struggle to fathom any semi-realistic scenario in which Meereen and its sister cities would not descend into utter chaos within six months of Daenerys’s departure. She is the State, the social contract and the Leviathan all rolled into one; if she goes, everything goes.
Tyrion did try to tranform, via religious indoctrination, Daenerys’s autocracy into a theocracy. Hardly the most stable of regimes but, given what he had to work with, it was a somewhat decent idea.
Whether it will hold water in the long run is up for debate.
Does the show do that or do we, the viewers ?
I do not believe Ellaria’s murder of Myrcella was portrayed in a positive light. Nor was her and the Sands’ takeover of Dorne : it shown to be brutal, bloody and treacherous. Cersei’s attack on the Sept was not, I think, presented in a more celebratory fashion than the Red Wedding had been. Arya’s murders at the Twins and Sansa’s killing of Ramsay were filmed in a manner that emphasised the superfluous cruelty of their deed. As for Daenerys’s crucifixion of the masters, it was far from a “hero shot”, I think.
The same logic applies to the Battle of the Bastards and Jon’s ultimate assault on Ramsay, to name but two male-focused examples. Both were filmed in ways that highlighted the chaotic, barbaric, almost animalistic nature of what was going on.
I do not think the show makes a men/women distinction when it comes to gross displays of aggressivity. All such instances are shown in a fairly dark, negative manner. However we, the viewers, may empathise to such an extent with this or that character that, when they fail or slip into highly questionable behavioural patterns, we are tempted to simply ignore it. Or call it “badass”.
Perhaps we are more bloodthirsty than the showrunners. 🙂
ACME,
Well they advertised last season as Girl power season …but I didn’t know in order to have power you need to do vile things and be smug about it.
I can understand why arya does it ..
Cersei is basically like that so she can also be accepted ..
Dorne is basically butchered even though its not nice to begin with. .
But dany and sansa getting smug and doing those things… I have to ask whether they read books ..
When we see Miguel speak they do want to raise question on how sansa kills Ramsey and same goes for dany …but I have to ask why …why can’t they be like their book counterparts ..
Those things that you mention Tyrion did was actually most of the things dany did on her own ..
Hodors Bastard,
All I saw was two factions of a family fighting to take the throne for themselves and gain the power. .
But I also noticed the Queen comes from another family who is not Taragryen..the Hand or LC of kingsgurad also played politics and went against the princess just becuse of his persobal vendetta ..he was not a targaryen..
The taragryen were just happens to be the house that were ruling …
Put any other house intheir position the result wil be same ..
In fact that’s what happened ..
Ofvouese they are going to have more pride becuse they rule 7 kingdoms as a whole and ride dragons ..we only see more about them because GRRM writes more about them
Again i find what you mention applies to all the families from stark to lannister to Frey to tully ..
Thats why I never follow someone based on their house but because of individual characters…
Basically there are two sets of people in GRRM universe..
1) one that are arrogant and entitled who only cares about power doesn’t care about people ( cersei,joffery,aerys,viserys)
2) other accepts their birth and status is not their to rule but right to serve and do the duty of of protecting people
Dany ,Ned,Aegon 5 and baelor breakspear ,doran and edmure fall under this secnd category
I give dany a lot of credit especially due to the fact she was raised by viserys and turned nothing like him ..
Dany as right idea when it comes to what queesnship is and how ruling should be done ..she didn’t need someone to tell her about those things..I see you think highly of aegon the unlikely I place dany in the same category and dany has what aegon didn’t have
ACME,
“Random dude in a pyramid..”
Ha ha!
You have a way with words!
😏😏
Wimsey,
Re: laying out the moral codes of the fictional universe. I agree with your observation (which extends to your prior comments about the Nuremberg Defense, ie, “I was only following orders”, not only being accepted but commended).
The show has repeatedly emphasized that in the fictional GoT world, violation of Guest Right is an unforgivable transgression. In and of itself it may not seem that terrible to modern sensibilities, but I accept that in the GoT-verse all bets are off when you slaughter unarmed guests under your own roof after the bread and salt ritual.
So I have trouble understanding why some people thought Arya’s slice-and-dice of the Freys was overkill.