Game of Thrones Page to Screen: the Kingsmoot

TheonYara

As a latecomer to the Game of Thrones fandom, the Kingsmoot was the first scene from the books that I actually looked forward to seeing translated to the screen. Through cultural osmosis, iconic images of the Red Wedding and Purple Wedding were spoiled for me ahead of time. So, the Kingsmoot will always hold a special place in my heart as a set piece that I got to anticipate and experience along with the rest of the fandom … even though it ended up differing significantly from the scene in the book.

Fan reception of the Kingsmoot in ep. 5, “The Door,” has been pretty tepid, ranging from disappointment to apathy. However, the differences between the two Kingsmoots deserve examination. To be clear, this is not a critique of the scene in the show or an evaluation of which version is better. That’s a discussion best left to Twitter. This is merely an analysis of the material because, setting aside the changes necessary for adaptation such as condensed dialogue and omitted characters, the Kingsmoots in the book and show differ because they serve different purposes within their respective series.

The Kingsmoot in A Feast for Crows is much more politically focused than its television counterpart. Through it, Asha (Yara’s name in the novels) demonstrates to the reader (though, sadly, not to her fellow ironborn) that she deserves to sit the Seastone Chair. Instead of overreaching their grasp as they’ve done in the past, she proposes allying themselves with the northmen, settling for Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore and cultivating the resources that they have to prosper. Then Euron pops in and wins the crowd over with talk of glory, domination and dragons.

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Marc Simonetti

Thus, we gain insight into ironborn priorities as well as Asha’s aptitude for leadership, her ability to look past popular opinion and see what’s truly important.

In the show, there’s no ideological difference between Yara and Euron. They both plan to bring the Iron Islands back to glory by assembling “the largest fleet the world has ever seen” (#MakePykeGreatAgain). Their mutual animosity comes from Euron’s habit of belittling his rivals and Yara’s desire to avenge her father, rather than from clashing opinions of what’s best for the Iron Islands.

However, to dismiss the show’s version as a lightweight Kingsmoot 2.0 for its lack of political nuance would be to overlook the interpersonal development at work during this scene.

Game of Thrones has a long history of taking politically or strategically motivated plot lines or character actions in A Song of Ice and Fire and giving them an emotional emphasis. In the books, for example, Robb weds Jeyne Westerling in a clumsy attempt to make amends for dishonoring House Westerling when he took her virginity, whereas in the show, he marries Talisa for love. In A Dance With Dragons, Cersei motivates herself to endure her Walk of Atonement to get to Tommen so she can ensure that Robert Strong has been accepted into the Kingsguard while in “Mother’s Mercy” she simply wants to be reunited with her son.

The Kingsmoot is perhaps the most overt example of this practice as the politics at this … well, political election take a backseat to internal and relational character conflicts.

The focus of the Kingsmoot in the show isn’t really the Kingsmoot. It isn’t the political future of the Iron Islands. It’s Yara’s antagonism with her uncle and her newly forged partnership with her brother.

Though Yara’s given fewer lines than Theon and Euron (for the sake of keeping my promise to withhold my personal opinion from this article, I’ll limit my feelings about this to this gif) she’s very much the central figure of the scene. Theon and Euron’s speeches and verbal sparring do less to dismantle each other’s arguments than to establish Euron as Yara’s toxically masculine adversary and reaffirm Theon’s solidarity with his sister (after all, it’s hard to imagine season 2 Theon enduring insults about his manhood for someone else’s sake).

TheonYarafacing

I would argue that, though Euron’s involvement has a greater impact on the plot, Yara and Theon’s relationship is the real core of the Game of Thrones Kingsmoot. It’s certainly the most developed aspect of the scene.

In terms of editing and scoring, the moment at the Kingsmoot that’s given the most weight is when Theon endorses Yara. The camera lingers on the expectant ironborn and the ostinato of Ramin Djawadi’s Greyjoy theme begins to play as Theon surveys the crowd of men prepared to crown him over his sister. It’s an opportunity that his season 2 self would have killed (and indeed, did kill) for. Yet, he rejects it and gives his support to his sister because he knows that she would make the better leader.

“I am Theon Greyjoy, last living son of Balon Greyjoy … and she is your rightful ruler,” he says and the Greyjoy theme swells as it does at no other point during the Kingsmoot.

Though the Kingsmoot in ASOIAF and Game of Thrones are undoubtedly different, there’s value to be gleaned from both. In the case of Game of Thrones, the Kingsmoot establishes a new conflict between Yara and Euron but, more importantly, it sets Yara and Theon on a new trajectory. Whatever happens next in their story, they’ve resolved the rivalry that’s defined their relationship since season 2. Theon’s made peace with his limitations, Yara’s “[beginning] to trust him again” and they’re embarking on their new narrative arc as allies.

95 responses

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    1. I always love this site and the work of its authors but I’m afraid the show Kingsmoot fell flat on its face.

      Euron is miscast and I just cringed throughout at the actor’s portrayal, much as I appreciate the points you make.

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    2. I liked the kingsmoot in the door. I think book readers have issues with the general downscaling of characters and plot, leading them to be disappointed over and over again.

      In the show, the iron islands are marginalized, never a true threat to take Westeros, which makes more sense if you think about it.

      This is a pirate culture. No crops, no cattle, just a harsh existence in which survival requires preying upon others. They could never have a shot at claiming Westeros, and could never hold it if they did.

      This is clear in the show. I think it must be less apparent in the books.

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    3. Halfman:
      I always love this site and the work of its authors but I’m afraid the show Kingsmoot fell flat on its face.

      Euron is miscast and I just cringed throughout at the actor’s portrayal, much as I appreciate the points you make.

      I have to agree, it almost felt half-done in comparison to how I imagined it from the AFFC. It was a very minimalist approach to the event, rather than swaying the crowd with lavish gifts and a dragon horn, there were a few dick-jokes and they’re in the palm of his hand.

      Not to mention how taboo kinslaying in Westeros, especially the Iron Islands, but they seem to just accept it. Where’s Nagga’s bones? Where’s the damn eye-patch?!?

      Thank you for the write-up though, it was very well authored and I respect the points you made.

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    4. Halfman: Euron is miscast and I just cringed throughout at the actor’s portrayal, much as I appreciate the points you make.

      The writing didn’t help with lines such as “along with my big cock” and “let’s go murder them”.

      I usually love everything about GOT but, yeah, the KIngsmoot didn’t really do it for me either. Wich is a shame, cause I liked Pilou Asbaek’s portrayal of Euron in the second episode.

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    5. Halfman:
      I always love this site and the work of its authors but I’m afraid the show Kingsmoot fell flat on its face.

      Euron is miscast and I just cringed throughout at the actor’s portrayal, much as I appreciate the points you make.

      Respecting of your opinion, I fully disagree. I thought this was a great write up, and completely articulates the point that I think some book lovers are truly overlooking – the two Kingsmoots serve totally different purposes in their respective narratives. For its purpose, I thought the show’s KM was wonderful. The iron born narrative is ramping up quite rapidly, but it wouldn’t have been justified IMO to dedicate an extra 5-10min to this scene in the interest of embedding more politics, characters, or any other elements of the book.

      I also think Euron is phenomenally casted. He was a bit tamed in this scene, but how else could he have reasonably garnered support from all of Pyke? Especially with this being his immediate follow-up to the 6×02 bridge scene, the audience is reminded that he’s a crazy mother f*****, but he knows how to navigate the political sphere skillfully.

      As someone who is personally tired of Ramsay’s one-dimensional, sociopath, torture/murder rampage, I think Euron is going to breathe new life into the antagonists of GoT. As it stands, he seems to have some strategic prowess like Tywin, but we all know he’s far from civil.

      Great write up! Personal opinions aside, I’m amped for what this storyline has to come, and look forward to Euron (hopefully) bringing more audience members on board.

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    6. Given that they condensed three subplots together (put Theon at the Kingsmoot, then merged Victarion with Yara) and outright cut a POV narrator (Victarion) I thought it was pretty good. Glass half full.

      Look, I didn’t really think we’d get all the minor candidates (maybe one of the three?), or Victarion, so really it was going to be Euron vs Yara.

      My ONLY complaint: it wouldn’t have made the scene more complicated or affected its runtime to put some banners in the background from other ironborn Houses. You can’t devote screentime to House Drumm? Fine. Have some guy holding a Houes Drumm banner. The TVshow-only audience won’t even notice but the book readers will get the little nod. Then again I think their heraldry department shutdown after Season 4 or something. Or maybe even just like a brooch or something – like how Howland Reed had a clasp on his cloak in the shape of his family sigil.

      That aside, rewatching the scene it grew on me. I was kind of expecting Euron to have a few more epic one-liners as he did in episode 2, but good enough as it was.

      Really, I know people keep comparing it to Dorne but…that’s for a REASON. Consider how much they condensed Dorne and how badly it turned out, while these TV condensations for the Iron Islands are also heavy….but generally match the *spirit* of the books.

      ******MAJOR NEWS is that in his post-episode interview Pilou Asbaek heavily implied (just short of outright stated) that Euron actually DOES have the dragonbinder horn from Valyria in the TV series. Apparently they just thought this would be too much exposition to dump on the audience all at once.

      Some have pointed out that it’s weird for Euron to so openly admit to kinslaying. Well first, book Euron isn’t afraid of kinslaying, but as for Euron claiming it with *no repercussions*….I think that future episodes will show this is what turns the Drowned Men against him as an “ungodly” man in the TV show. In the books it was for raping Victarion’s wife (among other things), but think about it: with Victarion cut, it makes sense to transfer that to “he’s a shameless self-admited kinslayer” to make the priesthood hate him.

      Thus:

      1 – Condensations that worked really well

      2 – Kind of wished they put in some new Ironborn House heraldry in the background as a nod- it wouldn’t have affected anything.

      3 – Missed dragonbinder…but apparently it’s *coming…*

      4 – I’ll accept the open admission of kinslaying IF a later episode shows that they’re using this as specifically what turns Aeron and the Drowned Priests against him.

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    7. “Yara also wants to build “the largest fleet the world has ever seen””

      I think it’s weird the way she got interrupted, but even from context of her previous line about “we keep attacking the mainland until they crush us and ignore us again”……I think what she *meant* was something like “we’re going to build a huge fleet and STICK TO DOMINATING THE OCEANS with it to defend against a mainland counter-attack”…..but time constraints made this a little clunky. Not “bad” – we had her speech already in episode 2 about her intentions. I wish they’d moved it around a little, but I think even the intentions of “TV-Yara” were clear.

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    8. It’s unfair to say Yara and Euron have the same plan. Yara discussed her plans to not invade the North anymore with Balon in episode 2; and that’s where her speech in the kingsmoot seemed to be going, until she was interrupted.

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    9. The Dragon Demands:
      4 – I’ll accept the open admission of kinslaying IF a later episode shows that they’re using this as specifically what turns Aeron and the Drowned Priests against him.

      All good points. And to be fair, it does look like Yara and Theon took a lot of people with them. Could be a combination of reasons, but the kingslaying probably pushed more people on their side.

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    10. eejazz,

      That’s your perogative of course. I’m far from alone as I’ve seen similar views across the fan sites. Ham acting in comparison to the depth of talent from most cast members.

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    11. ehh… i hated the kingsmoot chapter in the book… just would… not…. end… ever….

      but it wasn’t a good adaption at all.. and it didn’t help that it was in one of the most superb episodes the show ever put together.
      It was just awkward and choppy… I didn’t find Euron’s speech or the ironborn’s sudden turn to him convincing….. it just was weird.
      also, yara and theon stealing all the ships was strange….

      the voice over of the coronation was amazing tho.

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    12. Halfman:
      eejazz,

      That’s your perogative of course. I’m far from alone as I’ve seen similar views across the fan sites. Ham acting in comparison to the depth of talent from most cast members.

      Yeah, that’s fair enough. I do think this scenes fault was more from bad writing than acting though. It seems premature to dismiss the casting after two scenes.

      Give someone three dick jokes and “let’s murder them,” and I think a lot of the actors would struggle, comparatively.

      I was drawn in by the cinematography, staging, overall emotion/story telling of the scene. I can fully understand how the writing and speed of it can be enough to outweigh any strengths for other people. I’m just sensitive to people discrediting actors for what clearly was a ton of work and planning, just because one scene isn’t what they had in mind.

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    13. I was expecting a “Book Kingsmoot is way better than TV Kingsmoot” post, as I have seen so many of them on the internet. But I forgot this is WotW and not some random website… This is a great analysis of the scene, interesting and very pleasant to read.

      As for myself, I loved the book version of the Kingsmoot (AFFC basically turned me into a Greyjoy fan), but from the moment I knew there would be no Victarion in Game of Thrones, I had prepared myself to see a very different version of it, although with the same ending.
      And as it happens, I did like the whole Greyjoy part in Ep 5, the Kingsmoot was really OK to me (apart from the “Let’s go murder them” line, it felt awkward and not really useful) and the drowning of Euron afterwards was even better. I’m really looking forward to the Greyjoy plot this season

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    14. a flayed man none:
      In the show, the iron islands are marginalized, never a true threat to take Westeros, which makes more sense if you think about it.

      They weren’t a true threat in the first three books either. Suddenly they got a massive power up in Feast for Crows despite getting their asses handed to them non-stop since their introduction.

      Anyway, I agree that there’s good stuff in the Kingsmoot here, particularly with the Yara and Theon material. I found myself not caring one iota about the Kingsmoot in the books, as it was almost entirely characters we didn’t know or particularly like making increasingly grandiose and over the top speeches and gestures. That essentially nothing came of it for two books only further emphasizes the failure of the sequence to be meaningful. Having Theon there, after all he’s been through, makes the scene meaningful.

      And people who complain about Ramsay being a cartoon, my god, Euron may just be the most cartoonish character ever in the books, only in competition with Daario and Darkstar. His show counterpart may not be very compelling, but he’s not ridiculous. The line that got the most complaints (let’s go murder them) actually seems exactly like something Book Euron would say to me.

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    15. The Dragon Demands:
      4 – I’ll accept the open admission of kinslaying IF a later episode shows that they’re using this as specifically what turns Aeron and the Drowned Priests against him.

      Is it not obvious that kinslaying isn’t a big deal in the show? It’s never been mentioned in detail. I don’t even think anyone’s said the word. I don’t get why people are surprised every time.

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    16. The KM was good in most parts and great in couple of them. Theon’s speech and the drowning.

      As someone who disliked Euron’s over the top clothing, thank god he has no eye-patch, and even personality, I loved the more down to earth and ”real” Euron, that Pilou did.
      He showed a normal and joking part of Euron but also his crazy part.
      I am very excited to see more of Euron and of course Yara/Theon.

      That will be it from me on the subject, I have no desire to stir-up anything.

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    17. Luka Nieto,

      And this. Euron’s plan is very different, he wants to get Dany to conquer Westeros.
      While Yara clearly states her intentions in EP2.
      They can continue reaving and looting but trying to hold land is pointless.

      EDIT: Ok, I truly am out now.

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    18. I had no idea about the Kingsmoot other than what I could glean on here from the excitement of the book-readers. I expected Euron to be more … menacing, not loud and almost buffoonish. They even gave him the equivalent of the “bad poosey” line. With all his “worldly experience” he should have had more of an air of sophistication.

      Yara wants to be the first Queen of the Iron Islands. She could at least have combed her hair and polished up her armor a little. That would have surprised all of us. Yes, she’s had experience commanding men, and yes, they know her as she is, but she wants to be more than that now. I don’t care how laid-back a culture is, they’d want their Queen to look the part, at least a little, no? Her performance was good, Alfie’s was great. Alfie’s dialog was also the best and he delivered it like a master.

      The point that grated on me the most was Euron commanding everyone to go build 1,000 ships. WTF? cut down the trees and spin the flax, blah blah. For free? What trees? So many things would have to be imported for 1,000 ships – metal fittings, I would suspect. Even if their ships were nothing but wood and cloth, that number of ships would take months to craft, if not years. Unless they are just floating tubs. Oh well. I did enjoy the scene of all of them running through the tunnel with purpose. Theon almost looked happy rather than tragic. And I liked the scene of the stolen ships sailing off into the distance. That will keep Euron in place for a while.

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    19. The Kingsmoot was great, especially, as stated above, Aeron’s monologue and the first Theon-Yara scene. I think Pilou did the best he could, but I liked his introduction in episode 2 more. Yes, the line “let’s go murder them” was a bit cheesy, but nobody’s perfect… I really liked his non-cartoonish portrayal. We don’t need another sadist psycho. Hopefully we’ll see him again soon; 2 scenes in a entire season are not enough for a villain to become memorable. Apart from the line, everything was really good. A 8/10 from me for the whole sequence.

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    20. Thronetender,

      The Ironborn don’t like sophistication. Being as dumb and dudebro-ish as possible is more in line with their sensibilities. It’s why they’re completely useless and parasitic.

      And no way is that line as bad as Bad Pussy.

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    21. I liked the Kingsmoot just fine – book changes and all Except…

      “Let’s go murder them”

      I’ve got a horrid theory – can anyone confirm this? Has every episode this season had someone try Kinslaying and has every episode had a bad dick joke in it?

      I almost feel like there was a bet.

      The constant willingness to kill kin has taken things from the story like breaking your Kingsguard vows (Kingslaying) and breaking Guestright (Red Wedding) and made it look like kitten-cuddling.

      Why couldn’t Euron wanted to imprison and/or torture and/or use his relatives? Why would he clearly take credit for killing his brother? And the same goes for in Dorne – at least for Dorian? Killing Trystane in King’s Landing and blaming the Lannisters could have had strategic value – but otherwise… huh? It takes the medieval world of house and family and mottos and kinda takes the heart right out of it.

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    22. cosca: And no way is that line as bad as Bad Pussy.

      “my big cock” accompanied by the actual gesture? almost as bad, then, imho. I think you coined a phrase, though – I like dude bro-ish. LOL, that seems to sum up their culture completely.

      I meant to praise the article, though. Nicely written, and it did give me more insight into the idea behind the Kingsmoot, and some of Asha/Yara’s personality traits. Petra writes “we gain insight into Ironborn priorities as well as Asha’s aptitude for leadership, her ability to look past popular opinion and see what’s truly important.” That makes her sound almost like Jon. I think she nailed the show purpose in saying that at the end, it looks like Yara and Theon are united in purpose. That can be a very good thing.

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    23. I haven’t read the books’ Kingsmoot which is probably for the best. During the first watch I rather liked the scene. Alfie Allen’s acting took my breath away and nearly made me cry. Gemma was good, too. And it made sense to me that Yara would have a plan B as in having her men standing by with the fleet ready to set sail should something go wrong, and I think she rather expected that Theon would turn on her and that he would be the one she would be running from.

      I’m a Dane but Pilou Asbæk’s acting and accent didn’t impress me. And the lines were silly. I know he’s supposed to be crazy but I think we have one clown on the show already (Ramsay) and I don’t need one more jolly psychopath.

      During my many rewatches of this scene, what stands out is the idiocy of the ironborn. It’s simply ridiculous the way the writers let them aye aye and shift sides just like that. And there should have been many more extras. It also occurred to me and to many others that it seems pretty stupid that Euron asks the ironborn to cut their trees and build ships when Pyke doesn’t seem to have a single tree.

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    24. I’m a reader here, never really commented, but this has been bothering me since Sunday. Euron’s plan to take ships and woo Dany is…bad. Really bad, like, Kenny Powers level strategy making. I haven’t read the books, and I don’t know if this is consistent with the character or not. If he’s never supposed to be taken as a serious threat, then it played out perfectly. If he is, well, I have to agree with everyone who is saying they missed the mark.

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    25. Melissa,

      In the books he has a horn he discovered in Valyria called Dragonbinder, which supposedly can control the dragons… making him seem like a real threat (whether the horn works tho.. that remains to be seen…)

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    26. HelloThere,

      Ok, I have heard about that. So I guess maybe they’re taking the approach of purposefully making him seem like a cartoonish non-threat, only to give us the “twist” with the horn later if his flawless plan somehow backfires.

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    27. ladywolfsbane,

      It seemed to me that admitting to killing Balon was a gamble that paid off. It’s the Ironborn ethos of “paying the Iron Price” taken to the extreme, same with wanting to kill his nephew and niece. What value could taken them hostage have, all they are is potential usurpers. Better to have them dead.

      As for kinslaying in every episode:

      Episode 1 – Dornish massacre
      Episode 2 – Balon and Roose

      Roose was largely a secret so it’s not the same. With both Dorne and Balon, their unpopularity was emphasised, but there’s also an underlying desperation to all of it, it isn’t just happening for no reason, and it’s been carried out by the most villainous characters.

      As for all the cock jokes, it makes perfect sense for the deeply masculinist world of Westeros to me, but YMMV obviously. We’ve had a fair few in the past too.

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    28. The only thing that I remember about the Kingsmoot in the book was Asha/Yara going around boasting that it would be her Queensmoot, only to have:
      1) Her Neanderthal Uncle telling her that Iron Born rape women rather than follow them;
      2) Her Whack-Job Uncle telling her that Underwater Allah does not approve of women being leaders; and,
      3) Her Erudite Uncle telling her that the probability of her becoming queen was somewhere between zero and nothing.

      And then Asha/Yara was stunned when Crazy Uncle turned up, recited Ozzy Osbourne lyrics and got elected king, just like they do on Naboo.

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    29. ladywolfsbane: Why would he clearly take credit for killing his brother?

      The Iron Born take what they want. Keep in mind that Balon’s war had backfired badly at this point. So, Euron was basically taking credit for getting rid of a bad King and also paying an Iron Price for the throne.

      Keep in mind also that the whole “kin-slaying” thing seems to be a main-shore Westerosi value. The Iron Born have a very different value system than either the Northerners, the Dornish or the main southern Westerosi.

      Melissa: I haven’t read the books, and I don’t know if this is consistent with the character or not. If he’s never supposed to be taken as a serious threat, then it played out perfectly.

      That is consistent with the book(s). Book readers are very divided about Euron. On one extreme, some feel that he is “the” antagonist to which the stories have been building all along. On the other extreme, some feel that this is just a lot of extraneous narrative that will have no important payoff in the end, save perhaps for a few plot devices (like ships).

      It’s hard to compare them too directly as Euron already has more face time on the show than he has in the books. He only appears in a couple of pages, and he only has a small number of lines that read more or less like bad heavy metal lyrics. The show take could be consistent with that: but, then, a lot of takes would be consistent.

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    30. I was under the impression that the Euron we saw in this scene was not the real Euron – the one we saw in episode 2 was. This was simply Euron playing to the crowd. He knew his audience. He knew how generally disgusting the IronBorn are, so he presented himself as one of them (with lines like “along with my big cock”, and talk about Paying the Iron Price) to win them over to his side

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    31. HelloThere: In the books he has a horn he discovered in Valyria called Dragonbinder, which supposedly can control the dragons… making him seem like a real threat (whether the horn works tho.. that remains to be seen…)

      Well, if he had that Horn on the show, Yara sailed away with it, unless he was smart enough to hide it away somewhere on land, which I doubt. Which could lead to an interesting situation – Yara is going through everything that Euron had stashed in the ship’s cabin and comes across this interesting looking horn – what’s it for and why would he have concealed it? That might lead to something.

      Otherwise, I think Yara and Theon should stay away from Pyke forever, take up life somewhere else and take on some different life-codes. Paying the “iron” price doesn’t seem to be working out so well. That’s a different book though.

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    32. Kingsmoot in the show was fine. I don’t think it was much better in the books. It is an ok scene in both versions for different reasons.

      But I agree that the show has completely different approach than the books on this plot.

      The Iron Island and Dornish plots were very controversial among book fans, and the show changed them.

      In the books, when it comes to Dorne and the Iron Islands, those plots are isolated, and the politics of those two regions is the hearth of the storyline.

      In the show they put Jaime and Theon there. Instead of politics and the world-building, the main theme of Dornish plot was Jaime’s relationship with his daughter. They didn’t have many scenes, but you could sense Myrcella in almost every scene Jaime was.

      Similar to Dorne, the main theme of the Iron Islands plot is a relationship between Theon and Yara, not the politics, or the world building.

      You can love complicated political games and world-building, but I think that reducing the plot in the show (not only on the Iron Islands and Dorne, but everywhere) to the relationships between the characters was a very smart move by D&D. Sometimes it is not better than the books, but it is better for the show.

      They’ve done similar in Meereen, and I think that was a great decision. You could argue that similar has been done in KL as well. In the North.

      And we can see that even Sam’s plot will be more about his relationship with Gilly and his family than about Oldtown and world-building.

      Well, as I said, D&D have done this everywhere. The show really is not capable to be as complicated as the books, so they just have different “center” of every plot, they are more oriented on the characters than on this fictional world.

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    33. BigMac: I was under the impression that the Euron we saw in this scene was not the real Euron – the one we saw in episode 2 was. This was simply Euron playing to the crowd. He knew his audience. He knew how generally disgusting the IronBorn are, so he presented himself as one of them (with lines like “along with my big cock”, and talk about Paying the Iron Price) to win them over to his side

      I completely agree. I think Euron is savvy enough to know how to get what he wants, and they way to get what he wanted from those at the Kingsmoot was to act and speak exactly as he did.

      Thank you, Petra, for your thoughtful analysis. Given I wasn’t a fan of the Kingsmoot in the books (loved the concept, but not the execution), I figured I would prefer any truncated version of it. That turned out to be the case, and I didn’t really think about it any further (of course, there were so many other things from the episode taking precedence in my mind). I love it when someone presents something which causes me to look at something differently than I had been, or make me want to contemplate something I’d previously kind of glossed over. 🙂

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    34. This is merely an analysis of the material because, setting aside the changes necessary for adaptation such as condensed dialogue and omitted characters, the Kingsmoots in the book and show differ because they serve different purposes within their respective series.

      Excellent analysis Petra; I always appreciate comparisons between the media, accepting that they differ because they serve different purposes. I do think in the case of the show, it was to show Theon and Yara’s relationship (interesting to compare that to Jon and Sansa’s , I think they are developing very differently, curious how those two pairs will work out)

      Wimsey,

      Yeah, thats pretty much what I came away with in the reading. Plus I was so totally bored with that section. So seeing Kingsmott here was fine in its brevity. What amazed me was the Theon and Yara – his hesitancy to speak, her fear that he was going to bail on her. Wow did he knock it out of the park! And yeah, Yara would be smart enough to have a plan B if things didn’t work out, I agree tho, the whole thing seemed really subdued, compared to what I imagined it would have been. But it worked. Not the best written scene (except for Theon), but well acted nonetheless.

      Re ‘lets build boats’, yeah, like thats gonna work. Suspect Y&T will be at Dany’s door step before the first mast is raised

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    35. I don’t think the fan reaction to the Kingsmoot ranged from disappointment to apathy. A lot of people seemed to like it. I, personally, thought it was a brilliant adaptation. The more complex political dynamics of the book have been hacked down, to be sure. But as always, GoT does a much better job than the books at grounding everything in character. In the books, I couldn’t care less about Asha and Theon at this point. In the show, I’m very much invested in this new sibling duo.

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    36. Oh and I like the idea that Yara has it, and when she shows it to Tyrion or Sam, well, great things will happen, I suspect

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    37. Luka Nieto,

      He’s a Viking raider/ reaver, basically. He sails around the world pillaging cities and such. Doesn’t mean he’s sophisticated.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Halfman,

      No one could act these stupid lines.
      I don’t know if the actor was a good cast or bad, and I might never know because they might never really write him as Euron.

      The abomination we had at the Kingsmoot sure wasn’t Euron.

      The writing was the problem, not the acting. As it’s often the case with many asoaif long awaited scenes being adapted in GoT.

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    39. Melissa,

      Dany’s done ruling. She’s moving back into the conquering business. The thing she needs most is ships. Lots of them. And so whether or not Euron’s strategy is bad, his timing couldn’t be better. And if Dany is indeed planning to get herself to Westeros soon, she may very well strongly consider a political marriage to Euron. She can get rid of him later.

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    40. (cont)
      The Kingsmoot’s isn’t ever about Asha.
      Sure she might be the reasonable choice, but she never had a shot. She’s a woman, she’s offering them nothing (pinecones and turnips), she proposes peace to a warlike people, and tell them she’ll settle for what they already have, a few strips of land.

      Her speech might make sense from the perspective of a 21st century person who work 8 hours a day and spends his freetime watching television shows… I’d vote for Asha. I don’t want to go raid people with an axe.

      But it does not make sense for an Ironborn. They laugh at her for all these reasons ( being a woman pretending to the Ironborn’s rule, and she’s pro-peace/entering the fold).

      It’s like going to some war-torn country in Africa and sing Kumbaya in the hope they’ll drop their weapons and live peacefully from this point. you might have good intention, but it’s stupid and will never work.

      The Kingsmoot is mostly about one thing : Euron’s speech.
      And they almost entirely cut it out. They cut 2 lines of it and had Euron tell them before killing Balon… And then they make something else entirely for the Kingsmoot, and it was so terribly weak and poorly written.

      The lines were weak, the plot made zero sense (Asha stealing the entire fleet in minutes, seriously? Even if you dismiss the fact that she could barely steal ONE ship in that little time they drowned Euron… How did she steal the entire fleet? She’d need support for that, and.. how did she have it, when, obviously – he won – the Ironborn mostly support Euron? )

      And they barely care about Euron admitting to kill Balon. Because he was a bad king or something?

      Why not have Littlefinger and Olenna admit publicly they killed Joffrey because he was a bad king? Would that be well received as well?

      There’s so many great scenes that the fans were hyped to see on screen, and they would’ve been happy with a literal word-for-word adaptation… But the showrunners thought they could one-up these powerful book lines and write even better… But they’re seriously delusional.

      The Kingsmoot is one of the favorite chapters in the series for many fans, but show Kingsmoot was hated by just about everyone, from book readers to show viewers. Some big websites even made articles/videos about how bad it was, how terrible lines like “Now let’s go murder them!” were, and so on.

      Not only they ruined a great scene, they made a potential great villain character into a joke.

      He’s basically on par with the sand snakes now. Ridiculously bad.

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    41. ladywolfsbane,

      But this is a large part of the point. By this stage of the story, governance of the seven kingdoms has essentially broken down. And in such instability and constant Warfare among numerous factions, things can get very ugly. And social norms – held up during peacetime – can start going out the window. Including the attitude towards kinslaying. Repulsive when all is calm, but politically expedient amid the chaos.

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    42. aiad,

      I loved the scene. And I also enjoyed the scene in the books, but for different reasons (namely because they reminded me of the ancient Icelandic Althing).

      Speak for yourself, not “pretty much everyone.”

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    43. aiad:
      The Kingsmoot is one of the favorite chapters in the series for many fans, but show Kingsmoot was hated by just about everyone, from book readers to show viewers. Some big websites even made articles/videos about how bad it was, how terrible lines like “Now let’s go murder them!” were

      No it isn’t, no it wasn’t, and that didn’t really happen.

      Why do people feel the need to craft false narratives about the show.

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    44. Why do people complain about kinslaying?It’s never made to be a big deal in the show only in the books.Obviously we are not meant to sympathize with the killers appart from tyrion I guess,but it’s never stated as a taboo so I don’t know why people are so hung up on it.

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    45. cosca,

      When I see someone using words like “abomination,” and suggesting things like fans would have been happy with the scene being taken “literally word-for-word” from the book (I mean, sure, a few of them would, but c’mon), well, that kind of tells me all I need to know about the perspective of the person making the post.

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    46. As a book reader (who was never really blown away by the II storyline or the kingsmoot), the reason for me disliking this scene so much was nothing to do with it not staying true to the books. Of course it had to be condensed for the show and in that regard I get it.

      I even liked the fact that Euwrong paid the iron price and took the salt throne.

      But what I cannot understand for the life of me (and what I find hilariously absurd) is that this guy ridicules Theon for not being able to hold WF, gets drowned and crowned and within MINUTES loses the entire fucking Iron fleet who were allegedly loyal to him. Then the Ironborn (who, by the way would never respect this loonball after being fooled by a woman and a eunuch) are supposed to go off and build a new fleet for him? We all know that he’d get an axe in the side of his head, as we saw at Winterfell and Moat Cailin.

      So, let’s say the Irinborn do follow him, does that mean in 2 years time once they’ve built 1000 ships, they’ll be able to set sail and impress Dany with Euwrongs huge cock?

      These things make literally no sense at all. And it’s huge plot holes like this, as well as the abysmally bad writing (drowning excepted), that really does make this on a par with Dorne. “My big cock -/-bad pussy”. Seriously? ?

      I was up the hill that day at Ballintoy when this scene was being shot, and was gutted I couldn’t get near the set. After seeing the outcome I’m really not too bothered now.

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    47. Apollo,

      You make a good point about how the Ironborn should have an issue with a woman and a eunuch getting one over on Euron.

      I will say, though, and you aren’t even close to the only one I’ve seen say this, they did not take the whole Iron Fleet. They took the best ships. Those who followed Yara in her escape had to be the men who had sailed with her numerous times. I forget the exact line, but at one point in a previous season, Yara made a point she had men who were completely loyal to her.

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    48. Jenny and everyone else,

      Because of LOGIC that’s why. In a world where inheritance is everything, where class is so different it might as well be a caste system… maintaining a bloodline of inheritance is critically important to their society. It’s not the final straw in their society it is their entire society. No end of days is a proper excuse for this breakdown.

      How many conversations in this GoT/ASOIAF have revolved around continuing a bloodline? The entire reason for Ned’s death was because of a faked bloodline!

      Actually… I would think that ANY other crime would be forgiven before kinslaying. Marry the wrong woman (Robb) – forgiven. Insult your ancestors but joining the Nights Watch (Wildlings) – forgiven. Kidnap someone’s sister, betrothed to another (Tower of Joy) forgiven. Karstark killing the Lannister boys, Jaime tossing Bran out a window, and all the previous things I mentioned. Forgiven. But once you are related to the person that you’ve forged an alliance with in the previous generation – to kill them? Really?

      If it was such a no big deal, why didn’t Raegar kill his Mad King/father?
      Why did Sam’s father decide he wanted to kill his son – but in secret?
      Why did Euron in the books (presumably) kill his brother in secret?
      Why did Stannis hide his magic assassination of his brother?

      Arghh…

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    49. Jenny,

      I mean, it’s not like the audience needs to be told that kinslaying is monstrous in-universe. People aren’t really cool with it in our universe.

      We don’t stop to ask if the murder of King Hamlet by Claudius might be fine in Denmark. So to see the Ironborn totally cool with the same situation is strange.

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    50. BigMac,

      I’m 100% in agreement. This is just giving the people what they want to hear. Real Euron killed his older brother the episode before.

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    51. Just because we didn’t see Dragon Binder doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. Euron literally admitting not only murder, and kinslaying, but that he’d do it again and earlier, of given the chance tells me he’s supernaturally (or telepathically) charming them, not merely persuading them.

      And Yara and Theon ditching them with the ships means they were simply of greater resolve, yet will probably still so roughly what Victarion was doing by the end of ADWD. Though Theon doesn’t have any plot armour anymore, so he might not live long. Or they’ll stop off in bravos and collect No One.

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    52. W C-R:
      Jenny,

      I mean, it’s not like the audience needs to be told that kinslaying is monstrous in-universe. People aren’t really cool with it in our universe.

      We don’t stop to ask if the murder of King Hamlet by Claudius might be fine in Denmark. So to see the Ironborn totally cool with the same situation is strange.

      There are historical and literary examples where kinslaying has been considered acceptable. Laudable even. And the reasons are usually where someone is seem to have been a political numbskull. Now Balon wasn’t an idiot, but he didn’t make great decisions when to go to war, which leads to resentment by the people. If people want a different leader under those conditions, though, the leader’s death is the only path. So it might not be honourable, but understandable. And as Yara said “why now?” And it’s probably that he finally had dragonbinder in his control.

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    53. ladywolfsbane,
      Your logic is premised on universal values in Westeros. However, the Iron Born simply do not have the same cultural values as the rest of Westeros. You stress the importance of inheritance in Westerosi culture. However, the Iron Born have some analog of a tanistry system. And in our world, that often resulted in violence between the contestants, who often were relatives. It is like stating that history has plot holes because Mormons allow polygamy when we have so many examples of Christians professing monogamy.

      Lincm: Just because we didn’t see Dragon Binder doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

      Actually, it pretty much does. To suddenly whip out a magic horn for dragon taming would be major Deus ex Machina at this point. If that was going to do on the show, then B&W would have introduced it already. One thing that this season has shown is that B&W are even more fastidious than are GRRM about introducing plot elements before they become important and not whipping out unintroduced plot items for the first time in key moments.

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    54. aiad: (Asha stealing the entire fleet in minutes, seriously? Even if you dismiss the fact that she could barely steal ONE ship in that little time they drowned Euron… How did she steal the entire fleet?

      Previously, show!Asha/Yara had another quick “exit stage left” at the Dreadfort with 10-20 good men. So, she’s been crafted in the show for miraculous exits, with the easily-excited fans jumping up and yelling “Yeah, go Yara!”

      The Kingsmoot adaptation was adequate enough even without big bad Vic. I’m saving my savage blasting of the Yara/Theon/Victarion story for when (if) they plan to integrate the ironborn fleet with the Dothraki and sail west to conquer Westeros. Now that will be hilarious (regardless of canon alignment).

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    55. Kinslaying is indeed a taboo in Westeros, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Even before Euron, we’ve recently had the Sand Snakes kill their cousin, Ramsey murder everybody, Stannis kill his entire family over the course of several seasons, Tyrion kill his father and desire to kill his siblings, and Littlefinger, Cersi, and Lysa killing their spouses and extrenous bastards.

      War has unleashed all sorts of horrors upon Westeros. Not only the massacre, rape and robbery of the smallfolk, but this war has been particular in how the worst taboos are commonplace. Red Wedding destroys guest rights. Cersi and HS discuss that even Silent Sisters have been raped.

      The Ironborn boast of paying the Iron Price and taking Salt Wives even in times of peace. When everyone in Westeros is killing their relatives like it’s going our of style, it’s refreshing to see Euron own up to it.

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    56. You cant blow the dragonbinder horn and live, this was in the books, unless u have dragon blood is my guess. So maybe Yara and Theon do have it on one of their ships and someone blows it and they then realise it kills so they give it to Tyrion and he blows it but doesnt die…..hmmmm

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    57. Wimsey,

      Meh… with that in mind – I’d be happy to consider an exception somewhere – EITHER Dorne or the Iron Islands or the North. I was pretty OK with Dorne. But all three regions, blatantly with little to no cover-up attempted? All in the span of a few episodes? Ramsey killing his father, mother in law and 1/2 brother, Euron killing his brother, and wanting to kill his niece and nephew And the Sand Snakes killing Dorian and Trystane.

      It just rings too sudden and false a shift. At least Littlefinger and Sansa covered up Lysa’s murder as yet another example.

      I think we could get

      Frey pies and and three gold shrouds and more dead direwolves other wonderful stuff this season

      and that this will feel less shocking and impacting because of these decisions. They were mainly a simple choice in wording and easy enough to avoid…

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    58. Wasn’t the excuse everyone used last year for Stannis’s sell-swords running off that kinslaying was so utterly horrible that even people who kill for money would abandon the man paying them, despite him having just summoned forth a divine miracle?

      This season has been pretty good so far, but I am definitely one of those bothered by all the consequence-free kinslaying going on. As ladywolfsbane said above, once might be reasonable if presented in the right context. But three times in rapid succession, that is definitely too much and definitely not something consistent with GRRM’s Westeros.

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    59. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      It appeared she had more loyal men than Euron. Unless, Euron’s backers are more than those pictured? Asha sailed off with like 100 ships fully crewed. Euron had like 50 men left after she sailed off. I like the scene. The math just hasn’t added up.

      I also agree with others that Euron has two sides. One is public. One is private. In private his intelligence is more visible.

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    60. Mihnea:
      cosca,

      This. Especially the cartoonish part…. I still thank god he has no eye-patch.

      I had no problem with the Kingsmoot in the show; actually I thought the whole scene was great. Frankly, my only problem was with the actor playing Euron; I thought his characterization was a bit underwhelming, especially after his great work on the Rope Bridge on his first appearance…

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    61. Chad Brick:
      Wasn’t the excuse everyone used last year for Stannis’s sell-swords running off that kinslaying was so utterly horrible that even people who kill for money would abandon the man paying them, despite him having just summoned forth a divine miracle?

      This season has been pretty good so far, but I am definitely one of those bothered by all the consequence-free kinslaying going on. As ladywolfsbane said above, once might be reasonable if presented in the right context. But three times in rapid succession, that is definitely too much and definitely not something consistent with GRRM’s Westeros.

      At least here Euron could say “I paid the Iron Price” and be somewhat believable, I think the “I paid the Iron Price” is an argument some would buy in the Iron Islands…

      Although presumably you could argue that part of the reason Yara and Theon seem to be able to get about half the Iron Islands to man all those ships they stole is that at least some of those people are upset that Euron killed Balon?

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    62. aiad:
      Halfman,

      No one could act these stupid lines.
      I don’t know if the actor was a good cast or bad, and I might never know because they might never really write him as Euron.

      The abomination we had at the Kingsmoot sure wasn’t Euron.

      The writing was the problem, not the acting. As it’s often the case with many asoaif long awaited scenes being adapted in GoT.

      I don’t disagree with your view on the writing but even allowing for that, the actor does not look the part, sounds as though he’s lisping and wasnt able to convey by expression or action the character he is supposed to be. But that’s just my view of course, it’s all subjective.

      Perhaps he will be better in his next scene.

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    63. I agree that there are indications that Euron may have been miscast, but I’m willing to let the character breathe a little before writing him off. The few scenes he’s been in were more geared toward performances instead of nuance, and I hopeful there’s still hope (if that makes sense).

      As another poster mentioned, we could use another good antagonist right now.

      Like others have said, I also wondered at the Iron Born’s willingness to just forget about the fact that he killed their king. While Yara/Asha may have some loyalty because she was one of their military leaders, perhaps the manner of the death of the king was a factor in inspiring so many of the men to sail the fleet away with her (and didn’t all these men have a vote in the Kingsmoot, or was it one of those things where only higher-ranking folks attended?).

      Anyways, I enjoyed it. Between the last episode of S5 and now midway through S6, Theon’s character is transforming before our eyes. I’m digging it.

      I don’t think we’re going the direction of Dorne. These characters and the storyline are infinitely better in my eyes.

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    64. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      Apollo,

      I will say, though, and you aren’t even close to the only one I’ve seen say this, they did not take the whole Iron Fleet.They took the best ships.

      Fair point, I had assumed they’d said “all ships”, but at the same time they didn’t say “some ships” so it’s kinda open to interpretation. “Our best ships” could just mean they’ve taken them all- which include the best of the fleet. And surely, as a formidable leader, Euwrong would immediaty despatch what remained of the fleet in pursuit?

      mau:

      Apollo,

      He did not lose the entireIron fleet. You should pay more attention.

      mau:
      ladywolfsbane,

      The people from the Iron Island are different in the show. Just get over it.

      And you should try to address others in a more civil fashion, my friend. Namaste ??

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    65. mau:
      ladywolfsbane,

      The people from the Iron Island are different in the show. Just get over it.

      mau:
      ,

      Apollo,

      He did not lose the entireIron fleet. You should pay more attention.

      “They’ve taken our best ships” can be interpreted in any way. He didn’t say “some of our ships”, and taking all of the fleet would certainly include their best ships. If there were any ships remaining to them, why didn’t “Euwrong” despatch his men in pursuit instead of telling them to go home?

      And you should try to be a little more civil in your responses, manners come for free. ??

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    66. Another potentially interesting scene hacked to bits by the Dude-bro 40 something producers/adapters with the mindset of 14 year old boys.

      So far we have had dick jokes galore, sex with your grandma jokes…truly classy adapters. Can’t wait for what’s next, fart jokes? There has to a be a fart joke incoming.

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    67. Mister Stoneheart:
      Another potentially interesting scene hacked to bits by the Dude-bro 40 something producers/adapters with the mindset of 14 year old boys.

      So far we have had dick jokes galore, sex with your grandma jokes…truly classy adapters.Can’t wait for what’s next, fart jokes?There has to a be a fart joke incoming.

      Dunno if you’ve noticed, but there are plenty of “dick jokes” in the books, including one in one of the sample chapters for Winds, so…yea, not a particularly relevant point, mate.

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    68. I found the love-winded Iron Island chapters in AFFC to be dull and mostly unnecessary.

      On the other hand, I liked the brevity in the show and moving Theon into the kingsmoot to support Yara and give the audience a reason to care about this scene was genius. I was actually moved by his growth as a character, where he can support his sister. Seeing the drowning and rebirth of Euron was a good way to remind the audience about the religion of the Drowned God and, unlike the horrible characterization of book Euron, the show’s actor for Euron gave enough charisma that I could see why people would follow him.

      Bottom line: For this book reader, the show did better with this idea than GRRM.

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    69. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      I dont care about Theon or Yara may they get shipwrecked and starve. The Ironborn are Euron for me.
      I allways hoped they steal Danys dragons and get revenge on the targaryens for destroying Harenhall and their old Kingdom.
      But this Euron won’t kill Dany i fear.

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    70. aiad,

      Not going to argue with you at all.

      But for the love of god tone down that hyperbole, there were plenty of people who liked this scene, book-readers and show watchers only.
      You have the right to your opinion, but please don’t talk about everyone else.

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    71. Luka Nieto,

      Agreed.
      This is the guy who ties a person to a chair and stuffs a turnip in his mouth to silence him.
      All the while he fondles his daughter besides him….Call Euron what you want but sophisticated sure as hell isn’t one of his traits.

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    72. George: Dunno if you’ve noticed, but there are plenty of “dick jokes” in the books,

      Tormund is a walking, talking series of phallic jokes in the books. He even causes Bowen Marsh to make one (if only by accident).

      ladywolfsbane: But all three regions, blatantly with little to no cover-up attempted? All in the span of a few episodes? Ramsey killing his father,

      Dorne was pretty much a revolution. It was not just Ellaria: the palace guard were all in on it. As the old saying goes, the revolution will be televised.

      The official story that Ramsey is putting out is that his father was poisoned. OK, some people have seen through that. However, given that they demonstrated that the Maester is terrified of Ramsay, one need not resort to imagination to see how this was done.

      And Euron calling for killing his nephew and niece seems like a very Iron Born thing to do. Again, they might be geopolitically part of Westeros: but from the start (in both books and show) they have been developed as a very different culture.

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    73. I’ve always admired Thrones for its absolute clarity as to exactly which parts to keep and others to let go keeping book reader expectations alive as to imagining some things left out to be off screen or in the heads of characters.

      I think Euron is a great new addition to the cast(along with the new red woman, they stole the scenes)
      I thoroughly enjoyed his cock jokes. They were very funny and necessary he had to remind ppl aggressively that he’s the team which has the cock to be king and get a queen which the siblings can’t offer.
      Also he looks like Theon. Looking forward to more of him

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    74. Bishop: Bottom line: For this book reader, the show did better with this idea than GRRM.

      The problem that this creates for me is that “better” is not the same as “good.” Yes, what the show has done with the plotlines from Crows is much better than what was done in the books. But “better” in this case would include everything from “really bad” to “great.”

      In this case, I think that it was fine. It cemented an alliance between Theon and Yara that looked really implausible coming into this season: and that is the story this year. And it might lead to them falling under Daeny’s umbrella soon enough.

      I suspect that the bigger issue for some book fans is that some of them imagined that Euron would become Sauron. (Or Daario.) However, he was introduced to the series much too late for that, and GRRM keeps insisting that these are not that sort of stories. The fact that he’s written 4 stories in the series that very much are not that sort of story seems to back up his claim.

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    75. Chad Brick and Wimsey,

      For Brick – Oh snap… yeah… the contrast in Westeros behavior with that action is rather obvious… add that to the list. 🙂

      For Wimsey – true about Ramsey and the “poisoning”. But he did the killing in front of a witness, with no staging – there was no real attempt. Yes, he’s a sociopath – even a slight attempt seems unnatural. But it’s more the idea the the North is seeing through his lies and that they’re OK with it. There’s the rub…

      If there really is a Northern Conspiracy AND the Karstarks are part of it – I’ll take it back. But I don’t think the Karstarks are in on it…

      Mother of madness,

      I actually liked Euron’s cock jokes, out of the ones we’ve had this season. I’m perfectly happy with plenty of cock jokes… but there’s a saturation point. We went beyond saturation this year – and apparently upon reflection I miss the brothels! Wow!

      I can’t believe that I miss the brothels so much. I guess I need the right environment for my sexposition… to put me in the mood… “Play with her ass” back in season 1 was a horridly awkward line, but it didn’t seem so bad when it had the right location. I dunno… with the season of women we’re having – are we compensating for something? 😉

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    76. Book kingsmoot was far superior in my opinion. I didn’t find the show version of this scene to make much sense. It is what it is though.

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    77. The Yara and Theon part was good. Alfie Allen needs some kind of acting award. His eyes portray sooo much. Not sure on Euron yet. He seemed more as I imagined on the bridge with Balon but not so much during the Kingsmoot. He came across as that drunk man down the pub who claims he can do x and y and everything.

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    78. aiad:
      (cont)

      The Kingsmoot is one of the favorite chapters in the series for many fans, but show Kingsmoot was hated by just about everyone, from book readers to show viewers. Some big websites even made articles/videos about how bad it was, how terrible lines like “Now let’s go murder them!” were, and so on.

      Not only they ruined a great scene, they made a potential great villain character into a joke.

      He’s basically on par with the sand snakes now. Ridiculously bad.

      Which sites? Westeros.org or The Cultural Vacuum?

      And it would not hurt to use “In my opinion” or “from my perspective”. I can guarantee that not everyone hated the scene. Even a certain GoT administrator, who is usually really harsh about the show (too harsh actually), admitted that he liked it.

      “…a potential great villain into a joke” – Please tell me that you are kidding. Euron is completely one-dimensional and incredibly cartoonish without ANY redeeming qualities in the books. From my perspective, that is not a great villain for GRRM’s world and I’m sure I’m not alone in this.

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    79. Chad Brick:
      Wasn’t the excuse everyone used last year for Stannis’s sell-swords running off that kinslaying was so utterly horrible that even people who kill for money would abandon the man paying them, despite him having just summoned forth a divine miracle?

      I’m not sure about the others but I always thought that the desertion was caused by both Shireen’s burning and really harsh conditions. There is a possibility that the sellswords waited for snow to melt, so they could get away and burning Shireen was just the final straw.

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    80. Halfman,

      I don’t know if he’s miscast, this Euron just seems like an entirely different character from the book version who happens to have the same name and basic purpose. (Which makes the decision to use lines from the book in the rope bridge scene somewhat incongruous). He sure as hell looks like he could be related to Alfie Allen though.

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    81. Wimsey: Dorne was pretty much a revolution. It was not just Ellaria: the palace guard were all in on it. As the old saying goes, the revolution will be televised.

      There are two problems with that:

      1: A 20-year-old murder would not inspire a revolution, nor would a legitimate loss in a trial by combat

      2: The plausibility of conspiracy theories working decrease exponentially with the number of people involved. Ellaria needing to add a half dozen guards, as well as two ship crews for the Trystane kill, is utterly implausible. One leak and she and her girls are dead.

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