Game of Thrones season 6 filming: Report from the Tower of Joy

Castillo de Zafra

The Tower of Joy is a key flashback in the story of A Song of Ice and Fire, and it’s no surprise fans are so excited about Game of Thrones finally tackling this sequence. As soon as the Castillo de Zafra in Campillo de Dueñas, Spain, was confirmed as a season 6 location, fans were eyeballing it as potentially the tower they’d been waiting for. With the unofficial confirmation that the castle would be the tower, along with a casting call for a Legendary Fighter that’s a dead ringer for Ser Arthur Dayne, we’re primed for this flashback…which, as it turns out might not strictly be a flashback.

SPOILERS from a location report and the books! 

Los Siete Reinos has done extensive on-the-scene reporting from the area of the Castillo de Zafra, checking in from the nearby town of Teruel, Spain where production is staying at the moment.

The biggest news is, it’s been confirmed that Isaac Hempstead-Wright is there, giving the impression that the Tower of Joy will likely be presented as part of one of Bran’s visions. It makes sense to tie in the story with another major character like Bran, and the story is of course deeply tied to House Stark.

L7R has also learned two actresses will be involved in filming, but have not yet learned who will be playing Lyanna Stark.

Another question that remains, who is the other female character? L7R speculates Ashara or Ellaria. We’d suggest Wylla as a possibility, the woman said to be Jon’s mother in future references.

More details from Teruel: fourteen horses have been booked for the scene, and several fighters or stunt performers are present in the hotel in Teruel, identified by L7R‘s Javi.

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Photo: Los Siete Reinos

Some unconfirmed rumors Los Siete Reinos are sharing,  but take with a big grain of include that Jack Bender may be the director of the scene, and that a younger Barristan Selmy might be part of it.

The presence of Bran brings a twist to this Tower of Joy. Bran’s visions have certainly had a dreamlike, eerie quality to them previously, which could bring an interesting layer to this story. And how present will Bran be in the vision?

We look forward to seeing the final product, come season 6!

243 responses

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    1. I’m not sure about the Jack Bender thing. Daniel Sackheim was in Madrid the other day, which is where Eddie Eyre flew into before heading to Tereul.

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    2. I doubt Barristan will appear; they already mentioned his wounding on the Trident in the show. Not to mention his presence wouldn’t make much sense.

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    3. I tell you I’m more excited for this season than at anytime since season 1. It would be brilliant if the next book came out either just before or just after season 6 but I won’t hold my breath

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    4. Oh wow, if it is Bender, wonder if

      Jons resurrection

      will take place in same episode as this vision, for narrative symmetry?

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    5. Bran could “play” his father s role in the vision. i.e. seeing things thorugh Ned s eyes.

      Another thing – Barristan Selmy – I highly doubt he would be present (it is pretty much illogical) , maybe someone saw kingsguard s armor and concluded it was Selmy s. Perhaps someone who is familair only with show not the books)

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    6. Why Ashara or Ellaria? Ashara’s a nonentity on the show, there’s no reason for Ellaria to be there. It really makes more sense for it to be Wylla, who has at least been mentioned on the show before.

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    7. I thought there was a chance that Bran might have some involvement in the scene, and it makes sense, so that is good to know

      I can’t for the life of me understand why a young Barristan would be involved in the scene, so hopefully that is just a false positive.

      The two actresses part is interesting. I can’t see it being Ellaria at all, although Wylla does seem a good bet.

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    8. So Bran will learn that Jon is in fact Jon Stark. But how will Jon know?

      Maybe we’ll see a Bran-Jon reunion? Maybe Melisandre knows too, based on the “You know nothing” scene in S5.

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    9. It’d be really cool if Bran sees this through his vision but he is able to walk around during the fight, kind of like an interactive attraction for him, like he can freeze the scene and realize that one is his dad, aunt, Jon, etc.

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    10. Besides a 2nd woman, I’ve had a feeling for a while that there is a 2nd baby also involved somehow. A twin? Maybe. 2 women in labor? Hard to tell…
      Just a feeling that GRRM has “more” in store for this thread, whenever the books get to this reveal. I am praying to the Old Gods and the New that book 6 gets out at least a few weeks before the season 6 debut 😀

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    11. Morgoth,

      Based on Bean’s reaction to being asked earlier, I doubt he is involved. I’m glad, honestly. Not that I didn’t love Bean as Ned, but I would not find him credible as the young Ned.

      A random possibility that crossed my mind, since we haven’t heard anything about casting that part, was that they’d have Bran experiencing everything from Ned’s POV, which would give Hempstead-Wright more to do than stand around. That’s not how Bran’s visions have typically worked, but it would be more cinematic, perhaps. Probably not, though.

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    12. Jon’s Know,

      I had a theory. That Jon won’t know the truth this season. Only the viewer.

      (of course, I’m one of those who don’t think Jon knowing the truth will have any impact on Westros, politically. But rather more of a personalle impact on Jon himself)

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    13. Oh seven gods, this is so exciting.
      Bran will be there like in that weird dream he had in season 3, when he found himself in the woods shooting an arrow with Jon and Robb behind him and then Cat was yelling him not to climb anymore… with the difference that he will be present but not able to interact with the characters (just like in ADWD, when he tries to communicate with Ned but he can’t be understood).
      This is my two cents at least!
      And I’m so curious about these two actresses… Lyanna and… *not Ashara Dayne, not Ashara Dayne, please, not Ashara Dayne*

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    14. trarecar:
      Hmmm.Interesting, and a bit disappointing as well.I guess Bran could be standing there ‘watching’ it happen?

      Why disappointing? A Bran’s vision was literally the only way for this scene to happen,

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    15. You sure it was Teruel? ‘Cause I have visited my family in Teruel many times, and I’ve never seen the Castillo de Zafra. I think it’s in Guadalajara.

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    16. James Rivers:
      Oh wow, if it is Bender, wonder if

      will take place in same episode as this vision, for narrative symmetry?

      *gasp* You just gave me shivers.
      And now I want the two things to happen in the same episode!

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    17. Queen of the Keys,

      There has not been any mention of Ashara Dayne at all in the show. So I say it’s preaty certain that it’s not her. Besides she adds nothing to the story. Besides some ridicoulos theory like Euron=Daario.

      Most likely just a wet nurse. so Wylla or someone like that.

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    18. Mihnea,

      Mihnea:
      Jon’s Know,

      I had a theory. That

      Jon won’t know the truth this season. Only the viewer.

      (of course, I’m one of those who don’t think Jon knowing the truth will have any impact on Westros, politically. But rather more of a personalle impact on Jon himself)

      But what about

      the pic with Jon wearing Stark clothes? If it is a Bran’s future vision, i doubt it is the same major battle scene they are shooting, they wouldn’t ‘waste’ so much resource in a vision, i guess.

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    19. Valaquen,

      The 6 vs 3 fight isn’t the only thing that can happen at the ToJ. At some point they have to establish the Rhaegar didn’t kidnap Lyanna. They could show Rhaegar and Lyanna arriving, getting married etc., all with Barristan in tow right up until Rhaegar and Barristan ride off to the Trident.

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    20. Sean C.:
      Morgoth,

      Based on Bean’s reaction to being asked earlier, I doubt he is involved.I’m glad, honestly.Not that I didn’t love Bean as Ned, but I would not find him credible as the young Ned.

      Best Idea IMO would be to have someone younger play the role but have Bean do the voice.

      If they do use the idea someone mentioned above with Bran taking Ned’s place in the vision we could have Bran seeing as Ned but still hear his fathers voice when ever Ned speaks.

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    21. I have an eye on Hannah Kerin for Lyanna if only for a “winter is coming” tweet, theatre association with Eddie Eyre and a few stills.

      If Eddie Jackson (July casting news) turns out to be young Howland…

      his resemblance to the High Sparrow is disarming 😉

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    22. Jon’s Know,

      Jon’s reason to attack WF would most likely be Sansa and possible a threat from Ramsey.

      What I’m saying is that Jon himself doesn’t need to know the truth this season. he can easly learn it in S7-S8.

      I can be wrong of course, bu I will not be suprised if Jon doesn’t find out the truth in S6.

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    23. How tall is Isaac now? Is there an outside chance he could play young adult Ned? (I know there has already been a boy cast to play child Ned). I don’t think it’s all that likely Isaac will undertake such a role – more like me thinking out loud.

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    24. So is ‘young stunner’ Lyanna or not? The casting call has it that she has two scenes and one that has a twist. It reads like all three were done back in August. If Lyanna has any exterior scene in Dorne, how can she be the ‘young stunner’? Unless they gave the incomplete info in the call to keep it more ambiguous, don’t see how it adds up.

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    25. Awesome news!
      I think it’s safe to say this is the scene many people have been waiting for…..
      And now it is finally here!!!

      The note of having two women there is intriguing!
      Wylla or Ashara would be interesting, although I personally never thought either was at the TOJ. Of course we may be overthinking it… Maybe there is a stuntwoman or a stand-in double….

      A few different people have suggested for the past few weeks that perhaps Bran sees through his father’s eyes so we would not need a 20-ish Ned. I’m okay with that I think. Maybe it’s better than having Sean Bean play himself at that age…..

      It will be interesting to see if Eddie Eyre’s role was a placeholder to throw people off or if he is actually Ser Alfred Hunrith and just a minor character in the scene/s….

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    26. Tywin of the Hill,

      It’s like an hour away. Campillo de Duenas is pretty tiny. I’m guessing for that many people to be housed, they chose another town nearby.

      This is an actual on-the-spot report. L7R is there.

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    27. Jon’s Know,

      Wouldn’t Bran be finding out that he’s in fact, Jon Targaryen? How does Jon’s real mother being a Stark make Jon any more of a Stark than if Ned was his father, which everyone believes. That is if they got married even. If not he would still be a bastard but not a Snow, instead a what is it, Sand?

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    28. Interesting way to do it, would have figured a cold open might do it

      But this can actually work, Jojen had already mentioned Green Dreams about the war etc so even without a Weir Tree I’d say Bran can have them too

      One actress would be Lyanna, the other Wylla as a lady in waiting or midwife etc, Ned name dropped her in S1 E2 so would make sense….

      Could be a case of a different actor who looks Sean Beanish but they use Sean Beans voice.

      Doubt Selmy is part of it, not only was he injured at Trident but Ned and Ser Barristan actually had a talk about having never met on the battlefield so…

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    29. Hold up, hold up…

      The actress who was cast as the “young stunner brunette filming two-three scenes, including one with a major twist” character finished filming her scenes in August, right?

      And the TOJ scenes will feature Lyanna, right?

      So the young stunner brunette character CANNOT be Lyanna, right?

      So who the heck is the young stunner brunette character if she isn’t Lyanna, and what’s the major twist if it ISN’T anything related to Lyanna?

      Also, I saw something on a Spanish fansite about the Lyanna actress in Spain being “known.” If so, the news should get out pretty soon as to who’s playing her.

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    30. Mihnea,

      I think if it turns out to be true that

      Jon indeed attacks the boltons, while Sansa is a logical emotional reason I’d imagine his main goal to be strategic in the sense that the north cannot mount any credible hope of defense without unity against the others, or it could be possible that the battle is actually between the north and the white walkers of course that’s pure speculation without any evidence

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    31. Might sound odd, but I am as excited for the prospective presence of Howland Reed as much as Arthur Dayne

      Don’t expect Ashara Dayne at all

      Would have been good if Sean Bean was part of it all, big fan of the Sharpe series and he was a perfect season 1 Ned

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    32. M:
      Hold up, hold up…

      The actress who was cast as the “young stunner brunette filming two-three scenes, including one with a major twist” character finished filming her scenes in August, right?

      And the TOJ scenes will feature Lyanna, right?

      So the young stunner brunette character CANNOT be Lyanna, right?

      So who the heck is the young stunner brunette character if she isn’t Lyanna, and what’s the major twist if it ISN’T anything related to Lyanna?

      Also, I saw something on a Spanish fansite about the Lyanna actress in Spain being “known.” If so, the news should get out pretty soon as to who’s playing her.

      Yeah reports are patchy so this is tricky to make sense of

      Besides, would have been much better to have ToJ as a Ned dream in season 1 like the books when injured by Jaimie or just do a Maegi the Frog Cersei type thing where it is a cold open to the season, best intro to have after we last ended on Jon Snow being stabbed to death

      This idea of Bran acting through Neds eyes is a bit bizarre and unnecessary

      Him wandering around as a non participant is better but still unnecessary

      Besides, they can have Bran find out another way, eg give Sean Bean a cameo everyone wants where he is praying about it to the Winterfell Heart Tree

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    33. Does anyone recall what Jojen did tell Bran exactly about his father in S3? (was it S3 or S4?)
      Did he mention any place or just said that Howland saved Ned s life during the war?

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    34. I saw a photo a couple of months ago of someone they had cast as a possible young Ned. I wish I’d paid more attention to it! So, I’m pretty sure they’ve already cast young Ned!!! I absolutely can’t wait for Season 6! All the people saying last season was boring (which it WASN’T) had better hang on! It’s going to be a wild ride!!!! Come on George. Finish that book!!!!

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    35. Someone on this website, don’t remember who, once said this theory, that Bran would be there, seeing his father falling, and then he would warg into Reed and save him. I kinda like it if it happens… I mean time-travelling! How awesome would that be??

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    36. Really like the of Bran seeing this vision.

      What people need to understand is that most likely this scene won’t be like in the book. But will be ”complete”, this is most likely the scene where we find the truth about Jon.
      So having this in S1 would have been pointless.

      They are combining 2 stories here, Ned’s dream and Jon’s ”secret”. I truly tought people would be excited for this. But it seams I underestimated the human capability to complain.

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    37. Jon’s Know:
      So Bran will learn that Jon is in fact Jon Stark. But how will Jon know?

      Maybe we’ll see a Bran-Jon reunion? Maybe Melisandre knows too, based on the “You know nothing” scene in S5.

      My guess, it could be the Direwolves?

      In the books, the Direwolves are in close contact with each other (well, if they’re alive), so if Bran finds out through the weirnet, than wargs Summer, than Summer could tell Ghost? And what if Jon did warg Ghost at the last moment? Than that warging-bond is established for the show and he could learn it through the wolfbond. Also, since Arya is going blind, in the books, she manages by warging cats. This season seems to get heavy on the warging for the Starks.

      Sean C.:
      Morgoth,

      Based on Bean’s reaction to being asked earlier, I doubt he is involved.I’m glad, honestly.Not that I didn’t love Bean as Ned, but I would not find him credible as the young Ned.

      A random possibility that crossed my mind, since we haven’t heard anything about casting that part, was that they’d have Bran experiencing everything from Ned’s POV, which would give Hempstead-Wright more to do than stand around. Is not how Bran’s visions have typically worked, but it would be more cinematic, perhaps.Probably not, though.

      The warging dreams sure worked the POV-angle.

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    38. Ser Oromis Locke,

      Bran also had Dreams with him standing/walking around, in S3: the dream he had with Rob/Jon, and also before meeting Jojen.

      So it’s not like they just got this out of nowhere. If anything, his vision from S4 was out of place compared with what he had until then. But I always put that down to the eyed-raven, directly showing him those visions+ a combination of his memories.

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    39. Tywin of the Hill,

      Eddie Eyre posted a picture of a “Do not disturb” tag from his hotel and the name of the place was on it. They were in Tereul for at least one night but i imagine that’s where they’re staying. A poster who lives in Spain has said it is one of the only towns near Castillo de Zafra.

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    40. Darquemode:

      The note of having two women there is intriguing!
      Wylla or Ashara would be interesting, although I personally never thought either was at the TOJ. Of course we may be overthinking it… Maybe there is a stuntwoman or a stand-in double….

      Wylla had to be there IMO.

      Ned remembers that “They” found him by Lyanna’s body as we were told only Howland survived the fight outside then the other person(people) had to be already at the tower.

      Why would Wylla agree to pretend to be Jon’s mother unless she was loyal to Rhaegar or Lyanna.

      So far more likely she was loyal to House Targaryen rather than House Dayne (a position she took up afterwards).

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    41. phantomstrife,

      WiC is making an assumption based on the casting information WotW posted for the Young Stunner, who shot in Belfast. I wouldn’t use anything WiC says…well, ever to be brutally honest.

      People’s filming dates change all the time, as needed. It’s not rigidly locked in like that.

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    42. Lyanna is supposed to be dying into the tower so she doesn’t need to be in Spain this week. The scene into the Tower Of Joy could have been filmed in August and now only the fight and everything that happens outside.
      But in this case, who are the those two women?

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    43. 14 horses don’t necessarily mean there’ll be 14 mounted actors. They usually bring 2 horses for each actor, in case something happens.

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    44. Isn’t the Young Stunner actress playing Sansa in the play?

      That makes me think that the twist is that

      she’s “actually” Arya wearing a face

      .

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    45. Exciting and confusing! I like the idea of Bran actually there, observing. A trick frequently used in TV/film, and one which makes it easier for show watchers.
      I also wonder if there won’t be two flashbacks here. One in which Lyanna and another woman arrives and is settled in at the castle, and another in which there is a big fight and Jon Snow is handed over, etc.

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    46. I think they’ll either show toj flashback as a cold open or in the same episode as the jon resurrection. I doubt bran will be seeking the information and more than likely fall upon possibly in a seizure like state as jojen did in the show.
      On another note, did anybody else notice that the Bolton stake on the saintfield battle set looks very pyre-esque? I hope a Bolton burns…

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    47. At work I am currently using a 3 word random phrase generator to come up with computer passwords. So far it’s been things like “hunt bank stove” and “back bureau medium”, none of which mean anything, but out of the blue “wolf escape assert” has just popped up. It’s a sign! Of what I sadly have no idea, although I’m hoping it’s Stark good news. Sansa escapes Ramsay and goes totally postal on the Boltons to such an extent the white walkers will see her handy work, say “nope, changed our minds!” turn around and go straight back to where they came from, never to return. Or Jon is resurrected, is then free of his NW vows and becomes a total nothing-to-hold-him-back-now boss 😀

      EDIT: Chris, I’m hoping for a Bolton BBQ, perhaps that’s the spoilery name that can’t be revealed 😉

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    48. Why does the second woman have to be some important character? If Lyanna gave birth in that tower, you’d think there would be at least some midwives, right?

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    49. Exit81,

      It’s cuz many people believe Ashara to be Eddards love interest and jons mother, and her suicide is largely believed to be because of the events that take place at the tower or on the road after to starfall.

      Ashara is tied into the tower of joy plot for sure. I hope it’s not wylla. Cuz it makes sense eddard would like about who jons mother really was to robert and everyone else if he is rheagars… There just isn’t enough written to really decipher what happened yet.

      These filming updates will ruin it though 4 sure.

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    50. Jordan,

      No, the young stunner filmed her scenes in the first week of August and had no connection to the casting calls for the actors in the play. The theatre scenes were shot just recently.

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    51. Jon’s Know,

      I think Jon will train to bran during whatever happens to him after his stabbing. Be it just a vision, or when hes transferring to ghost of that happens… I’m sure they will speak at that moment, and bran will tell him what he’s seen.

      I also think Jon will sense evil in bran again like he did in clash when dreaming while with qorin. But it will be Bloodraven he’s sensing.

      I also think bran will start seeing how Bloodraven had orchestrated most of this shit… Or the children. One of the two. I can’t even wait. This is all the stuff I’ve been waiting book after book for

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    52. Luke: It’s cuz many people believe Ashara to be Eddards love interest and jons mother, and her suicide is largely believed to be because of the events that take place at the tower or on the road after to starfall.

      She’s a nonentity in the books too. If she was actually Jon’s mother, she would have mentioned more in the books (and most certainly by Ned, not just in one Catelyn POV chapter and then by Selmy later), and most definitely on the show. She wasn’t, and I doubt they’re going to have her show up now in a flashback that will only last maybe 5-10 minutes with no build up beforehand.

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    53. trarecar: Hmmm. Interesting, and a bit disappointing as well.

      Why is that disappointing? That is a common enough cinematic technique when characters are viewing things when they either are not there, or viewing it through some intermediary. The film/show has to show that this is the character witnessing the events, after all.

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    54. Hate to borrow from other book series, but this seems comparable to Harry Potter using the pensieve to go back into other people’s memories.

      It sounds like the show will use a similar technique to illustrate Bran’s Greenseeing.

      It does beg the question though… Is there a heart tree at the Tower of Joy?

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    55. I have a theory and now this news makes me thing even more that I may be right

      I always thought that at the moment of Jon’s death, he would have his Harry Potter moment and Bran would meet him in between life and death where he would show him a vision of the events at the tower. If I remember correctly, in the books Bran was able to see events through the weirwood trees, even those that happen long ago. He could conceivably show Jon the marriage ceremony between his parent’s making him no longer a bastard and able to proudly wear his Stark and/or Targaryen name.

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    56. Kay,

      I’m with you that Bran’s vision is a good way to go.

      I think it will take multiple visions from Bran, he learns more as his training/skill progresses. He will see/hear bits and pieces before he finally grows his green sight enough to get the full vision.

      With the full vision comes Jon’s eyes opening.

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    57. Jon’s Know: So Bran will learn that Jon is in fact Jon Stark. But how will Jon know?

      That is the big question! I am still betting that he will learn from Howland Reed this season: but I would be more money that any number of other things will be used instead.

      Jon’s Know: Maybe we’ll see a Bran-Jon reunion? Maybe Melisandre knows too, based on the “You know nothing” scene in S5.

      It seems implausible that anybody is going to see Bran again: he is deep, deep within enemy territory and quite sessile at this point. Now, Bran might find a way to put visions in Jon’s head: but would Jon buy it? Indeed, given Jon’s personality, I would expect him to reject it unless the person telling him could offer some good explanations about a few things. (This is why Reed has always made sense to me.)

      As for Melisandre, she knows that Jon is important. However, her visions never seem to be as specific as that. Instead, she gets individual facts, or even visual allegories for facts . She might see, say, a red-haired girl riding in the snow: but she has to work out who that girl is, from where she might be coming, to where she might be fleeing: it would not have subtitles saying “Sansa Stark” and “Winterfell: 25 furloughs south.”

      As such, if Mel sees that Jon has “Kings Blood” in him, then it is up to her to work it out. Unless she, too, gets visions of Rhaegar and Lyanna (and she can work out that this is who they are), then she probably will conclude that Jon’s Kings Blood comes from the Starks having once been Kings. After all, it’s true and it is much the simplest answer. (Mel is a walking advertisement for the old saying: “Seek simplicity: and then distrust it!” She comes up with very parsimonious explanations for the visions in her fire, but they still are incorrect.)

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    58. Damon Snow:

      It does beg the question though… Is there a heart tree at the Tower of Joy?

      Is there a Heart Tree in the air above King’s Landing or in the Throne room?

      We’ve already seen (TV)Bran have visions of things and places where there is no Heart Tree so why would he need one now?

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    59. I do hope that the ToJ vision/flashback will be told as it was in the book, that is

      that it will only show Lyanna’s death and not explicitly reveal that she died in childbirth. When reading the book, I didn’t immediately make the connection between Ned’s memory of the ToJ and the mystery of Jon’s parentage (I know, I’m slow!) and I was quite excited when I figured out the two things were linked. I hope the show keeps a bit of mystery for non-book readers, although it might be more difficult to do so on the screen.

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    60. The two women could be a wetnurse and a midwife. It’d be logical for them to be there. Someone had to deliver the baby and someone had to feed it once Lyanna died. She could have been brought there just in case Lyanna died or couldn’t feed it. And when Lyanna died, someone had to have been feeding the baby for it would have died otherwise. It was a long journey from TOJ to wherever the baby was taken first. I have a hard time reconciling the idea that Ned would risk sending one woman with his sister’s child on their way to Winterfell, while Ned went to Starfall to give Dawn back. Not unless Howland Reed accompanied them at least.

      The scene with the actresses could be as follows. They are outside doing whatever until they spot Ned and his company in the distance, riding up to the TOJ, they run inside, sound an alarm, the Kingsguard emerge, the conversation happens and then the battle commences.

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    61. Damon Snow,

      About the question… there was no Heart Tree in the black cells neither and yet Bran saw his father there, in s4.
      I think that rule works in the books but it’s not necessary in the series (in which he even sees a dragon flying over King’s Landing).

      EDIT: LOL too late XD

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    62. They also said that Trystane was the third son of Doran Martell in the second season…

      Valaquen:
      I doubt Barristan will appear; they already mentioned his wounding on the Trident in the show. Not to mention his presence wouldn’t make much sense.

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    63. Lord Snow: I think it will take multiple visions from Bran, he learns more as his training/skill progresses.

      We have been told that they are skipping Bran’s training. And that makes sense: training montages usually are not good for storytellling. They certainly cannot waste valuable screentime showing us the random images of the past that Bran sees in the books.

      So, what we will be getting is Bran Fangorn, Assistant Tree God working towards Associate Tree God!

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    64. In Teruel is where the actors are sleeping. The Castillo de Zafra is in the province of Guadalajara, but just an hour away driving of Teruel

      Tywin of the Hill:
      You sure it was Teruel? ‘Cause I have visited my family in Teruel many times, and I’ve never seen the Castillo de Zafra. I think it’s in Guadalajara.

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    65. Damon Snow: Hate to borrow from other book series, but this seems comparable to Harry Potter using the pensieve to go back into other people’s memories.

      Moreover, Rowling did not invent this. This is a familiar and useful narrative device. It’s no more “ripping off” than is having protagonists at this point.

        Quote  Reply

    66. I don’t think so. They use usually more than a horse per actor. In the scene of Jaime in Girona he was the only one riding and they used 2 or 3 horses, I don’t recall. More than 1 for sure.

      tyjon:
      14 horses = trial by seven?

        Quote  Reply

    67. Luke,

      These filming updates will ruin it though 4 sure

      Depends, it hasn’t precluded the sullied, well most of us that is, and the books spoiling the show hasn’t affected our enjoyment. We’ll probably have major spoilers revealed by the end of this week, especially once the aerial drones report back.

      Javi from Los Siete Reinos,

      If so then that matches with the books, it was seven who rode up to the tower, so 2 horses for each actor, stunt extra.

        Quote  Reply

    68. I literally asked a guy working there who had watched the show (didn’t read the books) about possible women there and when I said Ellaria he said “yes”, a friend of mine said she (Indira Varma) was gorgeous and he agreed and that stuff. I will double check it, of course.

      xylia1225:
      Why would Ellaria be there? Do you mean Elia?

        Quote  Reply

    69. Omg, I’ve been waiting for this since season 1!

      Wonder if the twist (besides R+L=J) is that Rhaegar and Lyanna are married after all. There could be a proof like the wedding cloak or something.

        Quote  Reply

    70. They don’t film inside the castle. In one scene people is entering in the castle. The rest if filmed in the area where the tower is.

      Nellie:
      M,

      The assumption before was that Lyanna’s scenes were indoors (makes sense) and those were shot in the studio in August.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Arya watches the play and leaves. She is not member of the theatre group when it represents The Bloody Hand with Of Monsters and Men

      Jordan:
      Isn’t the Young Stunner actress playing Sansa in the play?

      That makes me think that the twist is that

      .

        Quote  Reply

    72. Could someone fill me in about the Wylla stuff? I thought I was familiar with the theories about the ToJ and R+L but apparently not haha.

      I thought the theory was that

      Jon was Lyanna and Rhaegar’s child, and Ned lied about Jon’s parentage and took him in as his own. And I thought that ‘Wylla’ was just a lie from Ned, about a woman that he slept with so he would have an explanation for where Jon came from.
      If Wylla was a real person that Ned slept with, why would she be at the ToJ?

      Thanks ahead of time for any answers! Very lost right now.

        Quote  Reply

    73. But this guy who could look suspicious was also the first one who talked me about Bran being there, and I absolutely confirmed later that he filmed there and even went to his hotel in Teruel

      Javi from Los Siete Reinos:
      I literally asked a guy working there who had watched the show (didn’t read the books) about possible women there and when I said Ellaria he said “yes”, a friend of mine said she (Indira Varma) was gorgeous and he agreed and that stuff. I will double check it, of course.

        Quote  Reply

    74. What if Wylla was at the ToJ? It makes sense to have a handmaiden close by espcially if someone is about to give birth… Arthur Dayne could have brought her from Starfall to help Lyanna. That would make her and Howland the last two people who could confirm the r+l=j

        Quote  Reply

    75. Is there a possibility they will film more than one scene?

      – Rhaegar and Lyanna arriving at the Tower.
      – Ned finding the kingsguard and Lyanna at the Tower.
      – Some involvement of the Martells. We still don’t know what Doran exactly knows.

        Quote  Reply

    76. The youngest and the eldest, yes. Come on. The bloopers between seasons are not small. You don’t have to defend everything HBO does. They are humans and make mistakes.

      Luka Nieto:
      Javi from Los Siete Reinos,

      No, they didn’t. They said “the youngest son of House Martell”, which fits TV-Trystane.

      Luka Nieto:
      Javi from Los Siete Reinos,

      No, they didn’t. They said “the youngest son of House Martell”, which fits TV-Trystane.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Greywind:
      I can see Ban walking around the fighters kinda like a ghost.They can’t see or hear him and he’s taking it all in.

      I wonder if Bran will witness the scene through Neds eyes? From his perspective he may “be there” and we’d see that?

        Quote  Reply

    78. Brandon,

      There was a squire named Edric (can’t remember the second name) in the books and he tells Arya that he shared Jon’s same nurse, Wylla.
      And I think Wylla is also the woman that held Jon when Ned came back to Winterfell.
      Wylla was definitely a real person! But Jon’s mother? Nah ;D

        Quote  Reply

    79. Queen of the Keys:
      Brandon,

      There was a squire named Eddard (can’t remember the second name) in the books and he tells Arya that he shared Jon’s same nurse, Wylla.
      And I think Wylla is also the woman that held Jon when Ned came back to Winterfell.
      Wylla was definitely a real person! But Jon’s mother? Nah ;D

      That was Edric (Ned) Dayne, related to Arthur Dayne and Ashara Dayne, who told Arya about Wylla

      Edit: too late, I see you fixed it 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    80. Brandon,

      Human biology requires a second woman; it always did.

      Lyanna gives birth, dies. Ned takes the newborn. Newborns need milk. With lyanna dead, a second woman, one who can nurse that kid, is an absolute necessity. That could be Ellaria or Ashara who are maybe lactating, or a wetnurse who was there all along, like Wylla. Wylla is totally possible, as wasn’t she the wetnurse for the Daynes? Arthur is there, Lyanna’s about to give birth, so a Dayne wetnurse would make sense.

      It’s physically impossible for Ned to nurse that kid on his way to Starfall. Granted, he’s a nurturing, paternal guy, but that would be ridiculous.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Exit81: She’s a nonentity in the books too. If she was actually Jon’s mother, she would have mentioned more in the books (and most certainly by Ned, not just in one Catelyn POV chapter and then by Selmy later), and most definitely on the show. She wasn’t, and I doubt they’re going to have her show up now in a flashback that will only last maybe 5-10 minutes with no build up beforehand.

      THANKYOU!! I really wish people would get over Ashara frickin Dayne already. She was clearly a red herring to divert the readers attention from Jons real mother (like that worked).

      Perhaps the second actress is simply the midwife? Lyanna ain’t gonna pop a princeling out unassisted.

        Quote  Reply

    82. Joffrey’s Cunt,

      How would a 12 year old with no battle experience, warged into Howland, be an improvement over an adult who has at least swung a sword before? Unless Howland was unconcious. Another option is that Bran Wargs into Ned. Ned clearly has amnesia for part of the TOJ scene, so I suppose that could explain it.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Apollo:
      Perhaps the second actress is simply the midwife? Lyanna ain’tgonna pop a princeling out unassisted.

      That’s my thinking. A midwife/lady-in-waiting brought to make Lyanna comfortable once they realized that she was pregnant. It could possibly be Ellaria, if that news is legit, though I don’t know if a Martell supporter would be supporting Rhaegar in this. There’s so much we don’t know about (show)Ellaria’s history, though.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Oh nice! Can’t wait to see how this ties in with Bran. Really looking forward to his plot this year! I have confidence they’ll do an amazing job.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Javi from Los Siete Reinos,

      House Martell =/= Doran Martell.

      He’s the youngest son of House Martell; the youngest eligible male member of House Martell who Myrcella can marry.

      The point is, you were wrong. You claimed that the show said in season two that Trystane was Doran’s third son; that’s just wrong.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Javi from Los Siete Reinos,

      Hey – I just wanted to thank you guys for bringing all that great spoilers! 🙂

      But what do you say that they won’t be filming inside the tower? So the women will be outside as well?

      Either way, if one of the women is L., then the woman who shot in August as the Young Stunner can’t be L.. Given that she only shot in August. Am I correct?

        Quote  Reply

    87. Javi from Los Siete Reinos:
      The youngest and the eldest, yes. Come on. The bloopers between seasons are not small. You don’t have to defend everything HBO does. They are humans and make mistakes.

      This is not “defend everything HBO does”. S2 intentionally kept a few things vague in case they had to cut characters. Melisandre once spoke to Stannis in a way Shireen could or couldn’t exist. Only in S3 they decided to include her in the story.

      The correct quote regarding Trystane was “youngest of the Martell”. That could either be the youngest of Doran’s children or, as it turn out, the youngest among the male Martell. Oberyn was a bachelor and even Show Doran could be a widower, therefore making Trystane the youngest.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Things are coming together nicely. Love to read everyone’s theories. I will take the ‘wait and see’ approach on this one.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Since I wasn’t available, who did they get to fill the “best swordsman in Europe” part? aka, Ser Arthur Dayne?

      agree with above – loved Sean Bean as Ned, but he’s too old to play 20-25 year old Ned. Would like them to get young British actors for the roles.

      “They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. ”

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    90. Barristan instead of Arthur? Is that even possible or could it be another scene with Rhaegar and then Arthur vs Ned/Howland? The bit about Ellaria is interesting, but then she would know all of it. I thought Wylla or Ashara was the other woman in the toj. Both of them would make sense.

      Mihnea,

      R+L=J is more than likely the truth, but Ashara being Jon’s mom is a very entertaining theory (at least for me). Certainly more than Euron=Daario. I’ve never been of this one. The lack of evidence in the show made it clear even to hardcore fans of this theory. Jon’s mother is such a mystery and if Ashara was his mother, she would have been mentioned at some point. I honestly doubt they’re gonna start to hint at this theory now in S6, since weare approaching the final stage. Ashara is still somehow involved in this mystery but not as Jon’s mother.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Ellaria?? I hope not.why??? Just because is in dorne??

      I think if ellaria is there is just to introducr the Toj before the flash back happens. Like she hiding in the tower before killed myrcella.

      I love Bran be on the vision. Its great to know we will see Bran in other places.

      But the idea of he see the scene in first person as ned is really bad. But a pretty sure they wont do that.

        Quote  Reply

    92. lalla,

      I’ve really looked into it, and GRRM is pretty clear that we’ll find out who his parents are. There was possibly a quote by him, once, a number of years ago, that Jon will find out. But it was a second hand quote from someone at a book store signing or something. He certainly had never said anything similar before, or since. So I’m not sure it’s confirmed book Jon finds out.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Lisa0527,

      I guess Reed could have been distracted, like fighting another guy, not noticing Ned falling, Bran warging into him could make him aware and deliver the blow that saved him, which is something that we already know that happened.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Aguero,

      I also think if Bran is to be a major component of the story they need to show him revealing some major knowledge. His power has to be relevant and minimal visions/revelations won’t do that.

      Just can’t go from wolf dreams to warging a dragon 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    95. Ser Oromis Locke,

      I think Bran will be able to see directly through Ghost based on this quote, ” He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree.”

        Quote  Reply

    96. So incredibly excited for this! Having Bran there makes absolute sense as well. The thing that tipped me over was the possibility of Ashara, having her role fleshed out – one that has been shrouded in mystery- will be truly amazing!!

        Quote  Reply

    97. Aguero,

      i agreed, If we saw Ellaria in the Tower of Joy wont be in the flashBack, it will be she run away from Doran for killed Myrcela, this can be a way to introduce the Tower of joy before Bran see R+L=J.

      out of the topic…

      SUE. No more information about:
      The cast of Aeron?
      News about Rory McCann? (I really hope the hound come back)

        Quote  Reply

    98. About Ellaria’s potential involvement:

      It has always seemed likely to me that there might be people in Dorne who knew that Lyanna and Rheagar had a baby.
      There is the obvious connection with house Dayne, and there is some supposition that Darkstar might have been a squire for Arthur Dayne or one of the other Kingsgaurd members. Darkstar could definitely know something.
      Doran Martell could also very likely know that Lyanna and Rheagar had a child. He seems to have good knowledge of what is going on in Dorne. If he did not know before then he might learn about this from Obara. If they captured Darkstar then he might spill the beans.
      Therefore it is quite likely that there are actually people in Dorne who knows this secret.
      In the show they might just use someone like Ellaria to be present as a handmaiden, instead of creating a whole new character like Darkstar.
      It has always seemed likely that there were more people left then just Ned and Howland Reed. Lyanna needed someone to look after her.

        Quote  Reply

    99. igorcarvalho:
      Aguero,

      i agreed, If we saw Ellaria in the Tower of Joy wont be in the flashBack, it will be she run away from Doran for killed Myrcela, this can be a way to introduce the Tower of joy before Bran see R+L=J.

      The Tower was torn down after Robert’s Rebellion.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Mihnea,

      Oh, I know that. I’m just thinking out loud about the possibility. 🙂

      Would they use Indira in a flashback, though? Are they using Sean Bean? If Ellaria is indeed in the past scenes (and not hiding in the castle in “present day”), shouldn’t it be a younger version portrayed by another actress?

        Quote  Reply

    101. Mihnea,

      I do not think that Javi is imagining things. He heard what he heard. Maybe the guy who was speaking with is imagining things…I do not Know. But Ellaria s presence in a scene of TOJ would more than odd.

        Quote  Reply

    102. I can’t deny that I’m slightly bothered by these rumours. This scene could be AMAZING, but Barristan cannot be there, period. For one, he and Ned have already discussed that they never met on the battlefield in series 1. We know the showrunners have a penchant for replacing book characters who have not appeared in the show with well established show characters which can be good, but I really hope they can resist it here

        Quote  Reply

    103. Ygritte,

      They might do the reveal (to the audience) in multiple parts…..part one, show that R & L had a real relationship, part two show that Jon was born at Tower of Joy…and then later on, show R&L doing their vows in front of Bran/tree. I think the audience finding out R+L=J is enough of a shock for one season. Its probably a good bet that Jon and the rest of the realm wont find out he’s a true T Prince until the last season. (or maybe the season finale of the season before last).

        Quote  Reply

    104. Calling it now, I think Isaac Hempstead-Wright is going to take the place of Ned in the flashback. Bran will have a vision and “experience” the TOJ through Ned’s eye’s.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Maria,

      I never said that there was no wetnurse or that Ned nursed Jon completely alone. I didn’t realize that Wylla was thought to be Jon’s wetnurse, hence why I was asking who tf Wylla was. But thank you for the info lol

      But still, why would Ned have Wylla with him to go to the ToJ? When he was travelling to the ToJ, he didn’t know that he would be taking his sister’s baby (right?) Why did he bring this Wylla along in the first place?

        Quote  Reply

    106. Shane snow,
      Hi-Fi,

      I think Ellaria’s presence would make a wonderful twist. Here’s how it could work.

      Ellaria would be of an age with Lyanna if she was still alive. Perhaps they were childhood friends, very good friends. What if Ellaria knew of Lyanna’s affair with Rhaegar and didn’t care. Maybe Elia didn’t care, even. I mean, the customs in Dorne are different, right? Ellaria didn’t give two hoots about the fact that Oberyn had what 7 or 8 kids with different women. Why would they care about Rhaegar having two lovers or wives? What if Ellaria was such good friends with Lyanna that she went to the TOJ to be with her during her “laying in” and to help keep her safe from Robert. Ellaria would have despised the idea that Lyanna would be forced to marry someone she didn’t love. So she is there when Ned and crew arrive. I think at that point that Elia and her children were already dead. Even if Ellaria knew at that point, she would have been grief stricken but I don’t think she would want something to happen to her best friend and newborn as well.
      Here’s how I see it playing out…Ned and crew arrive, exchange words with KG present, major sword fight, Ned and Howland win, go into Tower and encounter Ellaria. They tell her Elia and her children are dead (was Rhaegar dead at that point, would he tell Ellaria that too?). She is grief stricken and lets Ned through to his sister realizing that he is the only one who can protect Lyanna and the baby now from Robert’s wrath. Lyanna dies extracting promise from Ned. Ned lets Ellaria leave to return to Dorne, out of mercy and pity (Robert would have killed Ellaria IMHO but Ned is cut from a different cloth–and the irony of Ned letting Ellaria live results in the death of Lannisters many years down the road, the family that killed him, oh the sweet, sweet irony…) Ned takes Jon and Wylla, a wetnurse who was there with Ellaria and Lyanna, and leaves.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Stirring things:
      Besides a 2nd woman, I’ve had a feeling for a while that there is a 2nd baby also involved somehow. A twin? Maybe. 2 women in labor? Hard to tell…
      Just a feeling that GRRM has “more” in store for this thread, whenever the books get to this reveal. I am praying to the Old Gods and the New that book 6 gets out at least a few weeks before the season 6 debut ?

      2nd women could be the wet nurse that Ned returned to Winterfell with.

      IMHO – GRRM would be the last person to give his story a Star Wars twist. I wish this speculation would end already. It seems insane to me.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Brendon,

      Wylla would have been brought by the Daynes most likely to assist in what was obviously a pregnancy at some point. Edric dayne and jon snow both had the same wet nurse; wylla. That being said she was either a wet nurse of the dayne family or a close local confidant.

        Quote  Reply

    109. Brendon:
      Maria,

      I never said that there was no wetnurse or that Ned nursed Jon completely alone. I didn’t realize that Wylla was thought to be Jon’s wetnurse, hence why I was asking who tf Wylla was. But thank you for the info lol

      But still, why would Ned have Wylla with him to go to the ToJ? When he was travelling to the ToJ, he didn’t know that he would be taking his sister’s baby (right?) Why did he bring this Wylla along in the first place?

      Ned did not bring Wylla to the Tower of Joy. She was wetnurse for Edric Dayne. So probably Arthur Dayne asked her to come to the Tower of Joy for Lyanna and baby Jon.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Now that I think about it, what were 3 Kingsguards doing in Dorne while their King was getting slayed and their prince was dying in the Trident?

        Quote  Reply

    111. Joffrey’s Cunt: I guess Reed could have been distracted, like fighting another guy, not noticing Ned falling, Bran warging into him could make him aware and deliver the blow that saved him, which is something that we already know that happened.

      This just a theory, but I dont believe anything magical happened at the Tower of Joy. I also dont believe Howland Reed aided Ned much in fighting, or dealt the killer blow. I think Howland Reed Simply reasoned with Arthur Dayne.

      Arthur Dayne wasn’t in a good position, he was the only loyal Kingsgaurd member left, what type of protection and upbringing could he really offer Jon, even if Ned and Howland where killed?
      Brienne is in a similar situation with regards to Sansa at the moment.
      I think Howland simply convinced Arthur Dayne that Ned would never harm his nephew and that he would look after him and raise him.

      But Arthur Dayne was also very honrable and loyal to his Kingsgaurds vows, after conseeding that Ned could take the child there was only two options left for Arthur Dayne, he had to die or he had to join the Nights Watch.
      I think Arthur Dayne might have killed himself. It would be the most honrable thing for him to do once he cant do his duty as a Kingsguard member anymore.
      (A very tinfoil or crackpot theory might be that he joined the Nights Watch, and that he might have been Qhorin halfhand. Because we see even a great swordsman such as Jaime struggle to fight with his other hand. But that is very crackpot.)

      I think it would really make the whole Tower of Joy scene so much dramatic for Ned if Arthur Dayne fell on his own sword. It would have been a day of sacrifices, with Lyanna dead and Arthur Dayne sacrificing himself in such an honrable way, and Ned sacrificing his honor to gain a bastard. It also makes the situation much more difficult for Ashara Dayne especially if she and Ned had feelings for each other, and it might also explain why the Daynes have a certain amount of respect for Ned. It is also similar to what Ned does before his own execution.

      But who knows, everyone has a different theory about what really happened, it will be great to finally see what really went down on that day. It is one of the best moments from the series.

        Quote  Reply

    112. The series needs a Stark loyalist and a Targeryan loyalist to confirm Jon’s parentage in order for the rest of Westeros to accept Jon as a legitimate heir. This easily can be established by having Howland and a Southern born lady present at Jon’s birth. And I’ll also wager that down the line, in the last season, Dany’s dragons will sense Jon’s a Targ and allow him to ride them. This ancient form of a DNA test will be good enough evidence for most.

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    113. If all the filming at this location is outside, and if Ellaria (Indira Verma) is indeed going to be there, I think her scene will be quite different from the Lyanna death scene. She could arrive there fleeing after Myrcella’s murder. A couple of posters have mentioned that the tower was torn down long ago. That was IN THE BOOKS. Much about the present-day Dorne story has been changed. It is very possible that D&D are using this one location for two different purposes, one a present-day scene, one a flashback scene.

      leoff: The correct quote regarding Trystane was “youngest of the Martell”. That could either be the youngest of Doran’s children or, as it turn out, the youngest among the male Martell. Oberyn was a bachelor and even Show Doran could be a widower, therefore making Trystane the youngest

      Exactly. Not everything has to be immediately, oh hey, look! HBO goofed up!

        Quote  Reply

    114. wanderer: And I’ll also wager that down the line, in the last season, Dany’s dragons will sense Jon’s a Targ and allow him to ride them. This ancient form of a DNA test will be good enough evidence for most.

      I think that the DNA evidence that the dragons will sense, is the one true purpose behind Jon’s Targaryn birth. Rhaegal (I think) will not need a testimony from Howland Reed or whoever, or any other evidence. 😀

        Quote  Reply

    115. Brendon:
      Maria,

      I never said that there was no wetnurse or that Ned nursed Jon completely alone. I didn’t realize that Wylla was thought to be Jon’s wetnurse, hence why I was asking who tf Wylla was. But thank you for the info lol

      But still, why would Ned have Wylla with him to go to the ToJ? When he was travelling to the ToJ, he didn’t know that he would be taking his sister’s baby (right?) Why did he bring this Wylla along in the first place?

      She would have been there already.

      Ned thinks about how “They” found him with Lyanna’s body so there would have been at least one other person there apart from Howland Reed (the only other survivor of the battle).

      Wylla then spends years claiming to be Jon’s mother or at least not denying it as it’s common knowledge in House Dayne that she is supposedly his mother.

      Why would a Wet nurse to House Dayne claim this, more likely she was loyal to House Targaryen and it was only after the ToJ that she took up the position at House Dayne.

        Quote  Reply

    116. Chilli,

      I was interested in people who would know about the toj situation. Very often, readers/viewers assume that Lyanna was alone at the toj, with the three knights protecting her, which would make Reed the only person who is alive to tell the tale. That can’t be true, though. Giving birth is lethal in Martin’s world. This woman and baby are precious, so they’d have a maester, maybe a midwife, not to mention a wet nurse, and maybe some servants. That would up the number of people who are itk.

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    117. Anton Fewer: Now that I think about it, what were 3 Kingsguards doing in Dorne while their King was getting slayed and their prince was dying in the Trident?

      It seems very obvious that they were doing their duty, they even tell Ned that they swore a vow. They were protecting the heir to the throne. Aerys and Rheagar where both dead. Rheagar obviously instructed them to stay at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna before he left. But after Rheagar’s death they could have left. But they did not leave because Jon is the heir, Viserys wasn’t the next one in line.

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    118. Maria: I was interested in people who would know about the toj situation. Very often, readers/viewers assume that Lyanna was alone at the toj, with the three knights protecting her, which would make Reed the only person who is alive to tell the tale. That can’t be true, though. Giving birth is lethal in Martin’s world. This woman and baby are precious, so they’d have a maester, maybe a midwife, not to mention a wet nurse, and maybe some servants. That would up the number of people who are itk.

      When you really think about the situation it would be a bit silly if there was only 3 Kingsgaurd members there. With the Kingsgaurd members there it shows that there was a great concern about the safety of the baby, if they were so concerned with the safety of the baby then they would surely have made some provision for a midwidfe or someone that could help with the actually birthing process of the child.
      Lyanna was a highborn Lady she would be used to having some servants around her.

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    119. Boudica,

      But did Aerys cared so much about Jon? Remember that the Kingsguard swore to obey the King, not the prince, and Aerys’ Kingsguard was especially known for their adherence to their vows, so much that they reprehended Jaime for judging him. Wouldn’t Aerys have kept them near him?

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    120. Tywin of the Hill,

      Beat me to it!

      A second woman there makes little sense. Perhaps she’s to be used in an after scene or just as Ashara (not a big part) for Ned dropping Dawn back at Starfall (still think Ashara may have more relevance in the books but whether this will transfer to the show who knows).
      Part of the mystique if ToJ is that only two people walked away from it. Throw in a random woman too and it loses something. L died in childbirth so that could be expained the lack of medical professionals there!
      The twist that will be revealed there is twist enough already without adding more complications. Would make it messy and lessen the impact of R+L=J.
      The more I read about the ToJ the more I worry. Still think they should have just had it as Ned and Lyanna’s chat and nothing more.

        Quote  Reply

    121. TheTouchOfFrost,

      If you think Lyanna was alone with just the 3 KG you are mistaken. Lyanna and Jon were important enough that the greatest knight and member of the KG was there, as well as the Lord Commander. Rhaegar would have had people there to take care of Lyanna and the baby. Ned even speaks of “they” who found him holding Lyanna.

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    122. This Barristan speculation does have me worried, more so than the Ellaria bit. Barristan has already mentioned to Dany that he fought with Rhaegar on the Trident, and Ned also mentioned that they never met in battle. I can see Ellaria being a hand maid to Lyanna, but Barristan being there would be a very poor choice, and would insult the intelligence of the audience. IMO.

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    123. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      So did Ned and Howland butcher them all then? If a few commoners knew about ‘The Secret’ how long would it have remained a secret? That aside, from a dramatic standpoint having an extra nobody about lessens the impact of the scene. It’s an unneeded addition.
      Not sure about Ellaria. She gave birth to her first child around the same time as the ToJ so I would have thought she would have been with Oberyn. As his paramour, she would have been above being a handmaiden plus I’m not sure Oberyn would have been particularly happy with her serving the guy and girl who were having an affair at the expense of his beloved sister.
      Barristan at ToJ would be flat out ridiculous.

      Mihnea,

      And you’re determined to paint pictures in black and white. Widen your palette.

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    124. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Those are not even rumors. only speculation, poor speculation to be honest.
      They probaly saw a guy in KG armor. Anyway it’s highly unlikely, as a young Selmy needs a new actor. And they have no way to prove he is Selmy.

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    125. TheTouchOfFrost,

      It is certain they had a wet-nurse there, as baby Jon would have died on the road to Starfall otherwise.

      There is no way Raeghar left Lyanna to give birth with Hightower and Dayne, so a mid-wife is also needed.

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    126. Mihnea:
      Jon’s Know,

      I had a theory. That Jon won’t know the truth this season. Only the viewer.

      (of course, I’m one of those who don’t think Jon knowing the truth will have any impact on Westros, politically. But rather more of a personalle impact on Jon himself)

      Exactly, you get it. I don’t see Jon being like “Weeeee! I’m a Targ!” it would be nonsense, if anything it would give him resolution to his origins and then keep going. He is a Stark through and through.

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    127. Geralt of Rivia,

      The main reason (for the show) to feature a second female in the Tower of Joy flashback/vision is to establish a witness (besides Howland Reed) to Jon’s birth. Whats the point of doing that if said witness is also dead in current time? It doesnt serve the show to have Ashara involved in the storyline.

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    128. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Ned even speaks of “they” who found him holding Lyanna

      Well that put the subject to rest concerning others at the ToJ (still living after the fight) the books are canon. The exact book quote is “…they had found him still holding her body, silent with grief…”

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    129. TheTouchOfFrost:
      Tywin of the Hill,

      Beat me to it!

      .Part of the mystique if ToJ is that only two people walked away from it. Throw in a random woman too and it loses something.

      The Book actually tells us there were at least Three People alive there when Lyanna died.

      We also know Ned has the Tower broken down to make Cairns for the Dead, do you really think just him and Howland did this (while caring for a baby)?

      Breaking the tower down could have happened a little later (when more of Ned’s army arrived) but we know that at least two people found Ned beside Lyanna’s body.

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    130. Mihnea,

      There is no mention of one so it’s anything but certain. We have no idea if J was premature or not. Again, if there were others privvy to the secret then it ruins it. Even if there was it’s a detail that is nowhere near important enough to be included in the show. Which sounds better Reed and Ned were the only ones that walked away or Reed , Ned and the small retinue of people who were put in place to look after Lyanna’s baby?!
      If their whereabouts were meant to be a secret then it is perfectly plausible that R didn’t take any attendants at all at the risk of their position being discovered. If L wasn’t expected to give birth for a while (which she probably wasn’t seeing as R thought he’d have time for a quick jaunt to the Trident) then they wouldn’t risk having a nurse there for any longer than she’d be needed for. It wouldn’t surprise me if R himself planned on delivering the baby as he seemed to be Mr Perfect in every other sense!

      tyjon,

      I think the phrase “they found him still holding her body” very strongly implies that “they” arrived well after the skirmish itself was over (if they’d arrived before then surely they would have got involved?!), and found only Ned and Howland alive. It would cheapen the secret to have anyone but Ned and Howland know. Perhaps they found a wet nurse for J or some way to mask that he was L’s before the other men arrived and after L bit the dust. Ned himself says he has no recollection of what happened after she died so it’s all down to Howland to explain!

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    131. For those who may not remember, here’s the exact quote from Eddard’s first chapter in GoT:

      …Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his siter’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her figers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.”

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    132. TOJ/baby Jon makes no sense if there was only Lyanna+Rhaegar (left after some time) and Hightower (came later)/Dayne/Whent there. There had to be a very limited staff to do the chores (can’t see the Crown Prince, his lady or the knights sweeping floors/washing clothes/making meals etc) and then a midwife/wetnurse to deliver and keep the baby alive. They had to get the supplies from somewhere (Starfall?), someone had to be making that journey to and fro. They sure spent a few months there.

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    133. Coleman,

      I believe that others found Ned well after the conflict and L dying. So perhaps they tore it down then or maybe came back to do it. Bear in mind there were at least 11 horses there so they could have used them to pull it down.
      I’m thinking that it may be better to leave some of this to the imagination as every little bit of detail will ruin the mystique of the event which is what I’m worried about happening in the show.

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    134. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      This, especially as Rhaegar would know how dangerous childbirth is; his own wife nearly died giving birth to their kids. It’s inconceivable that Lyanna would be left alone to birth her own baby, and it’s inconceivable that Ned and Reed and their men managed to get that newborn to Starfall without the presence of a wet nurse :/

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    135. Bronn’s Bro.,

      A Stark/Targ “prince” is the only person who can unite the south (Dorne), the North and Dany’s army. So yeah, Jon’s parentage will be of importance to the political world…..regardless of Jon’s wants or needs.

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    136. Wylla might be the second woman, I’d think. It wouldn’t be much of a stretch for her to be there to deliver and care for Jon.

      It’s really not that big of a deal if a third person knows who Jon’s real parents are, especially if she agreed to keep it a secret and perhaps even pose as Jon’s mother (as Ned’s conversation with Robert and Edric Dayne’s statements seem to suggest).

      Even so, it seems there could be others who have suspicions of Jon’s true parentage. Stannis is skeptical of Ned having bedded a “tavern slut” as Selyse suggested, saying it wasn’t “Ned Stark’s way.” Others might have some suspicions as well… Littlefinger, perhaps? His facial expression when Sansa stated that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna indicated to me that he disagreed and might know more about what really happened than he let on.

      R + L = J could become a major story point later on. If Littlefinger knows or suspects, he might use it to his advantage, perhaps to turn Sansa against Jon as someone else on this site suggested. It’s an interesting possibility.

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    137. I’m willing to bet LARGE BAGS OF CASH that the Bran vision will seem much like the one he had with his brothers (and Ned’s voice). It will be clear and this time he’ll be literally standing in a moment in time, observing it as if in real-time.

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    138. GeekFurious,

      Also the three-eyed Raven visions, where Bran is walking around Winterfell (post-fall) following the bird. I’ve been re-watching season 1, and it sounds like ToJ might be reminiscent of those scenes. I think it could look really cool.

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    139. Mihnea,

      People always find reasons to complain for anything. Nobody knows the specifics with the way the scene would play out, but people are already acting like it wasn’t up to their standard lol

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    140. wanderer:
      Bronn’s Bro.,

      A Stark/Targ “prince” is the only person who can unite the south (Dorne), the North and Dany’s army. So yeah, Jon’s parentage will be of importance to the political world…..regardless of Jon’s wants or needs.

      It would be important to the world years ago not right now, also I’m saying it would be irrelevant to Jon, if he unites Westeros it will be because he can not because his blood says so (The kingdom couldn’t give a flying fuck about the Targaryens right now), having him go around with a dragon on his chest ala Viserys would be ridiculous and out of character.

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    141. Robb Snow,

      I also wonder if Doran Martell is one of those people with (potential) knowledge of Jon’s parentage. Since the show isnt featuring Aegon, then maybe Doran’s long game or backup plan will include Jon. The focus on him and his family seems pointless unless he gets involved with the bigger picture (restoring a Targ on the throne). Just a silly thought 🙂

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    142. Morrigen,

      I really only mentioned him as Dayne since it’s assumed he will be appearing this season. I have always pictured Charlie Hunnam as Daven Lannister honestly, but I doubt that character will ever appear… At this point I think I would take Hunnam in any role, Young Ned or any other role. Well not Lady Stoneheart or Coldhands! XD

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    143. K Noelle,

      I like to think Reed warged into Dayne momentarily allowing Ned to strike a critical blow. Can’t really see any other way the two of them could have beaten him. Perhaps the reason we’ve not seen Reed since as it messed his brain up to some degree.

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    144. I’ve always assumed Wylla was there. As many have stated, Lyanna would have a midwife. Period.

      When the first person sees Ned carrying “his” newborn out of the tower and asks where the mother is, he’d have come up with a convincing lie, and immediately at that. He’s not going to make someone up or name someone across the continent; he’s going to play to the obvious and say, “Uh, the woman nursing him, you dummy.”

      I’m also not surprised that she’d be in the show, if she is indeed the second woman. Waaay back in the second episode there are four scenes in a row that talk about Jon’s parentage in varying degrees of subtlety. They were very carefully written and absolutely set out R+L=J (Ned promising to tell Jon about his mom only after he swears off taking titles, Ned being visibly uncomfortable that Robert asks after Jon’s mother and then mentions killing every Targaryen, &c), culminating in the show’s mention of Wylla.

      What are the odds D&D didn’t have the Tower of Joy scene in mind when they wrote all of that? Like, zero, right?

      It’s Wylla.

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    145. OH, and “Wylla” and “Ellaria” have plenty of linguistic similarities. Entirely possible that the fellow Javi asked misheard, only heard the vowel-L-vowel bit, so on.

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    146. As others have stated, I’m putting my money on the women being Wylla and Lyanna, and Bran seeing the scene through his father’s eyes.
      I’m seriously dying for this scene!

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    147. Redstar: when Lyanna died, someone had to have been feeding the baby for it would have died otherwise. It was a long journey from TOJ to wherever the baby was taken first.

      Precisely. Plus, Ned and Howland took time out first to tear down the entire tower stone by stone and bury their dead comrades. That newborn would’ve been long dead by the time they crossed the arid Dorne marches and got to Starfall if no wetnurse had been around to feed him.

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    148. TheTouchOfFrost:
      K Noelle,

      I like to think Reed warged into Dayne momentarily allowing Ned to strike a critical blow. Can’t really see any other way the two of them could have beaten him. Perhaps the reason we’ve not seen Reed since as it messed his brain up to some degree.

      Nar he’ll have fired a poisoned dart at Dayne

      Just have to look at how the Crannogmen held Moat Cailin under siege while the Ironborn held it to see how much of a nuisance they can be

      Might not be suited for Tourneys but definitely for Guerilla warfare

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    149. Darquemode,

      I’m pretty sure Charlie would would be great wherever they put him, hell he’d probably do a convincing Wylla, I probably only saw him as I’m just now watching SOA (to my shame)

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    150. wanderer,

      Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn, Dayne connection is there. Why not?

      Howland Reed or Wylla/Ellaria is not enough as the evidence to support Jon’s heritage. He looks nothing like typical Targaryen (mind you that some of them in the history had dark hair). It doesn’t matter if it’s Howland Reed and Wylla/Ellaria or simply HR himself. He could explain it to J (no need for Wylla or Ellaria), but it would take something much stronger for people to belive in this. The support of the nobles is they key or J will bond with one of the dragons to prove it.

      But then again Tyrion might not be a Targaryen, but it’s very likely that he will bond with one of those dragons too. It’s not exactly given fact that bonding with a dragon=being a Targaryen. In fact GRRM talked about that not every dragonrider would have to be a Targaryen.

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    151. Greywind,

      Yes, that would make perfect sense from a tvshow point of view. A book can have Bran sitting forever in the weirwood tree cave, but movies need action. So I guess they’ll make him move/walk inside the vision, a bit like Harry Potter in the pensieve.

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    152. Geralt of Rivia,

      Because despite whats in the book, the tv show has consistently tried to keep the plot simple. Wylla has been mentioned on the show, Ashara hasnt it, thus its more likely that Wylla will make an appearance. Thats all. Im not saying its not a possiblity, but the show needs witnesses to the birth (to move the plot forward), so introducing a new character that consequently commits suicide doesnt make much sense….UNLESS they decide to keep Ashara alive 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    153. Bronn’s Bro.,

      Westeros as a whole doesnt care about the Targs, but Dorne/the south seems to be on a different agenda. So someone like Jon would be the only person, who based on his bloodline, could united different fractions of the realm…more so than a Lannister or a Tyrell. And that doesnt require Jon to go full beast mode Targ lol He’s a Stark, period. But his Targ blood does make him valuable to the political game.

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    154. Gatehouse Ami,

      After seeing your post about Hannah Kerin I went down the twitter rabbit hole and saw several other tweets from her that could be considered clues about her possible casting like re-tweeting a post from a guy named Jon Snow, a Shakespeare tweet about “hot ice and wondrous strange snow,” interaction with Eddie Eyre, and recent mention of Harry Lloyd.

      These could be coincidences, but I also think she looks the part and would not be disappointed by her casting.

        Quote  Reply

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