Once more, the latest episode of Game of Thrones was the most viewed cable programme of the night. However, the viewership numbers have also once more fallen – 6.24 million have seen the initial airing. Still impressive by all means, but nothing like the premiere night with 8 million, or the 6.8 range of subsequent episodes.
Some points for discussion. Firstly, this metrics, much as we like it, is of course not really important (decreasingly so, see the second point), but we don’t have anything else to go by at the moment. It’s high time for an update on the totals, though – hopefully we can get those numbers soon. Secondly, how much have HBO’s efforts to offer their programming on every platform imaginable undercut live viewing? Thirdly, this year they are showing an episode on the Memorial Day weekend as well, and that’s coming up next week. Keep that in mind when the initial viewership number falls once more. Promise? Good.
I like the positive spin, Marko 😉
Pau,
Me too. Chin up!
“viewership numbers have also once more fallen”
it’s because the quality is declining….Dorne, Samsey, Margarey becomming retarded, missworm… the list goes on
The wide swing of viewer numbers – we are talking millions here – that vary between episodes and seasons has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with storyline or characters. That is not how TV works. (And your opinion about quality lacking is just an opinion.)
This likely has EVERYTHING to do with HBO’s continued efforts toward streaming content, with many people likely catching up on it after the fact, as the WotW story notes above. It was inevitable that this show would reach its peak at some point, and the fact is that it’s reached it – and is staying there now.
Arden,
I can promise you that Book Purist Pet Peeves like Missandei and Grey Worm or the like are the last reason the ratings are down.
They moved too far from the books and the sandsnakes are ridiculous.
Arden,
Yes, that explains why general ratings are falling each Sunday so far this season: people dislike this stuff so much that they are not watching TV at all!!!
Given that the audience marks for the episodes are fine and certainly comparable to what we’ve gotten in prior seasons, it seems that another explanation is in order. The fact that people are increasingly watching shows when it is convenient rather than when it is on seems to be the best explanation, as it is a bit more all-encompassing.
1) The vast majority of the viewers haven’t read the books. 2) A big proportion of the people who’ve read Crows do not want to see that on TV, anyway. 3) The Sandsnakes are barely on TV.
Other than that, a very likely explanation…..
Strictly speaking, it is an assertion. A true opinion should be backed up by first principles arguments (“good TV should do X, Y and Z; this isn’t”) and/or data (“audience/critic remarks are way down from last year.”)
However, the show is doing fine at telling the story of Crows and Dragons so far, and the audience/critical marks look like normal.
One thing that we do have to keep in mind is that this was always going to be a tough year. The first four seasons got to adapt solid and compelling storytelling. This season also gets to adapt some solid and compelling storytelling from Dragons. But it is also burdened with having to adapt the nebulous and disjointed storytelling from Crows.
Nice spin! I expect the ratings to stay where they are more or less, would be good to know total consolidated viewers soon.
This. It’s also a great argument for keeping it at 7 seasons (though I wouldn’t mind a 15-episode season 7). At a certain point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in… drag this out to 10 seasons and you will see a considerable ratings slide before the end. Viewers want to see the end game!
Leaf,
I find it ridiculous whenever anyone says that the ratings are down because they moved too far away from the books. Most people have not read the books and/or do not care.
That said, while I’ve actually enjoyed most of this season for one reason or another, I know a lot of people who have not. And there has definitely bin a dip in the excitement factor so far this season, with most of the stuff that I got excited about having to do with dropping hints and name-checking book related stuff, which really doesn’t make up for the lack of other stuff going on for anyone who isn’t a book geek like me.
And since I’ll admit that a hefty portion of the people who are as big book geeks as I am tend to freak out about changes a lot more than I do, that’s probably not helping them much either.
To be fair, this is a hardly a surprising trend.
They’ve all but run-out out source material and now have had to go hors-piste. and their own initiatives are presumably made according to a cost-benefit analysis.
Eg-
Hmm the audience responds well to the shock factor( dead-Ned, Dracarys, Red Wedding) let’s have some more of that even if it makes little to no sense- Cue Sansa E6 scene.’
‘wow the public loved Oberyn and Ellaria!’ ‘Let’s focus more on Dorne in Season 5 They’ll be more forgiving even if the caliber of the Dornish cast does not quite match up with the rest.’ (excluding Doran)
‘Hmm the male public responded well to the boobs in season 1-2 but most of our actresses (at least we still have Carice!) have since signed no-nudity clauses. Instead of cutting out boobs altogether when unnecessary and dedicating more time to plot building let’s add in a bazillion sex workers- that way third wave feminists can’t do anything about it. ‘
What I’m saying is that the plot is being distilled due to lack of source material which means that the plot is being weakened as D&D are left to their own devices. The public that loved the first few seasons is increasingly turning away because of this. Let’s be honest not much has happened in the first 6 episodes of season 5. Admittedly the leaks and the mothers’ day event may have helped bring down numbers too.
Sansa getting raped for shock value is a little bit more than a pet peeve, it makes no sense and is absolutely disgusting to use RAPE to show how bad Ramsay is (in case you forgot)……..but yea I guess it’s a pet peeve when Littlefinger can travel from the Vale to Winterfell and back to KL before Stannis can make it to Winterfell.
Let me ask you something. If they needed Jaime to do something this season – Why not bring the BWB back or have Jaime chasing Blackfish through the Riverlands. It would make just as much sense as the Dorne plot and would bring back characters people already know…….Do you even remember who the Blackfish is?
Ok guys, thanks, I just hope I didn’t spin anything too much?
Wimsey put it nicely this time.
I would still like to see the numbers go up a bit, I’m a bit disappointed with this week’s (again, little as that means). Give us the totals, HBO! 🙂
All those reasons don’t explain the decline between episode 2 and episode 6 though.
5 weeks ago it was because of the leaks, last week was Mother’s Day. Now it’s HBO’s fault. Maybe some really have to do with the show quality? I’m not being mischievous here, I’d really like to know
All of us book readers (the ones making up excuses and the book purists, because I still think most of the people here have read the books) can’t really judge, because the majority of the viewership is unsullied. Anyone has unsullied friends that have stopped watching the show? What are their reasons?
What are the unsullied critics/reviewers saying? Haven’t had much time to check
Doesn’t ring a bell, no.
Something cool to follow, if you don’t know it yet:
http://graphtv.kevinformatics.com/tt0944947
Well, I was wrong. Historic trends for the show would have suggested a slight rebound from last week.
This is the first real piece of evidence that the show has already hit its ceiling for initial-airing viewership (the season premiere). Has total viewership (over the course of a week) peaked as well? Is the show’s popularity still rising outside of the U.S.? These are questions that I imagine HBO is asking.
And yes, the ratings for next episode will drop considerably. If they don’t rebound to around 6 million for Episode 8, that could be a problem. Not for the longevity of the show, which is not at all threatened, but for its public perception and (perhaps) future budgets.
Not really, no. Most news outlets comment on the same fact, that GoT won the night once again, and are not at all concerned by the slight decline
If I had to take a stab at the reasoning, I think a few things are going on:
1) HBO’s push to streaming. I think this may actually have been a decent contributing factor to them no longer wanting to publish the overnight ratings themselves any longer even before the season started. They’ve been reliable for hype in the past and they may have rightly predicted that taking people to their new streaming service was going to cut into first viewing numbers.
2) The general trend away from watching things live in general, which probably goes double-so for HBO with their numerous alternative viewing options and million and a half reruns of everything they produce.
3) The show is going to plateau in ratings at some point. I can’t officially call that one way or another until we see the episode totals once those finally start coming out, but it’s always been unrealistic to expect the show to keep growing at the same pace year over year indefinitely, especially when it’s on HBO which really does ultimately restrict the number of people who can plausibly tune in.
4) Finally, this season simply hasn’t been all that exciting. I don’t mean to say that people have been abandoning the show because of a drop in quality. I don’t think that’s really it at this point, but in combination with the above three, I do think that it has become much less of an appointment-viewing show over the course of this season. You see some jumps after especially exciting episodes not because it brings in new viewers but because current viewers want to see what’s about to happen as soon as possible, and I’ve definitely noticed less excitement in that department so far this season. That’s also consistent with the much, much higher premiere numbers. A lot of people will tune in for the premiere (and probably the finale, especially if the last few episodes are decent enough) that will be content to watch whenever they have time during the week for mid-season episodes.
If I had to guess, the total viewer numbers are probably up over last season, but people just see it as less necessary to watch the first run of the episode directly on HBO at the time it airs.
Maybe D&D gave too much writing responsibility to their assistants early this season?
I don’t think we have those numbers yet
Wanna bet? You were already wrong once 😉
I’m not saying they will, I’m saying you can’t know
Other than a few snippets from Arya’s and Cersei’s arcs, they’ve left that Act II AFfC “masterpiece” alone. It works better in my head anyway. 🙂
We can’t honestly claim fewer people are watching the show when it holds the record for TV show downloads, recently. Those numbers are only increasing. Trying to pin a ratings decline on quality is pointless when there is no actual decline. The viewers are just getting the show through illegal means.
People are pirating it, therefore ratings aren’t much of a reflection, unfortunately. I am curious to know what the number of downloads was- not sure if that data will turn up this week.
This season seems so separate from all the other seasons. They have heaped on so many controversial moments. The burning alive of Mance Rayder, the death of Barristan Selmy, Jorah’s greyscale, Sansa’s rape. It all seems so convoluted, and were are barely through half the season. The writers have traded the true story for shock value moments. Along with the leaked episodes, the vigorous fighting of Piracy, HBO GO, and HBO sending out shut down notices, it isn’t any wonder the ratings are falling.
Dnis,
It’s still the highest rated thing on HBO, and it’s only got two seasons left. I’ve said this before, but the only thing that is likely to have any real effect on the size of their budget is a monster spike in ratings or a complete viewership crash next season. Neither of those being especially likely.
Well this has been the exact opposite of what we’ve been used to with previous seasons…
Now that the show is out of great source material I figured audiences enthusiasm would slowly start to wane but I didn’t expect it to happen so quick and significantly. I thought the ratings this year would at least be steady with last season.
I’m not sure how this Sansa controversy will effect the ratings. It is the first episode this season to create any form of buzz but it has not been positive buzz. I think it has been made worse by the fact that it was the ending scene to a pretty bad episode by GoT standards. The episode was already lacking and then they topped it off with that.
I hope they step up their game these last 4 episode and win audiences back. I have to say I am actually looking forward to another D&D episode. I thought the show was off to a good start this season after the first 3 written by them but there has been a drop in overall quality in the recent 3 despite some occasional good scenes.
Pau,
It’s Memorial Day. They’re going to drop.
Bring Drogon back onscreen being badass, and the ratings will skyrocket again! 🙂
Haven’t read the books, have no plans of doing so atm. 🙂 Sandsnakes have hardly been onscreen that much.
Pau,
Well, I think it’s a combination of factors. In no particular order:
a) Viewer fatigue – at some point, regardless of quality, a show’s ratings peak and people go on to other things
b) Certain book readers having problems with ever-increasing deviations from the source material and/or fearing spoilers for the next book(s).
c) Drop in quality. This one is subjective so I can’t even guess the impact, if any, of this factor. I will say, however, that a lot of people, particularly Unsullied, always framed the show in terms of Stark vs Lannister. After the events of Seasons 3 and 4 (the end of Act I) main protagonists and antagonists, and the narrative drive itself, have changed. I can understand very well that a lot of people likely have trouble acclimating to this narrative shift.
d) Change in viewing habits – live watching seems to be less and less important with each passing year. I second Marko: we need total numbers, not this overnight stuff.
One thing I have to say is that no other show on TV breeds the type of discourse and debate after a controversial episode. Sure it might not be all positive but just looking over reviews articles today, there are reams of reactions and takes on THAT scene. Paste Magazine posted some good stuff for example, level-headed and considered after the initial feeling of ‘having gone too far’.
GoTs popularity isn’t diminishing, it might not be Season 4 levels but it’s doing well considering the beast of a task adapting Feast and Dance.
Also, many of my friends are choosing to stream the show at different times, the live transmission of an episode isn’t as big an indicator as it used to be.
I think the falling numbers have more to do with people having DVRs than with anything else. I’m not always able to watch the first showing, but you can bet it’s on my DVR!!!
Pau,
I’d wager whatever ratings-procrastinator credibility I have left on a drop in live viewership for Episode 7. Of what magnitude, we’ll see.
Cayrouse,
And, now some of D&D’s decisions seem to make a lot more sense (some of us were saying this before, but we weren’t listened to).
1. Thank God, they have crammed AFFC and ADWD into one season. Imagine how slow it would have been if it was two seasons (or even 3!) as some people were proposing.
2. It was a wise decision not to include all the new subplots. The Griff storyline seems to be the one that was best to get rid of. Arguments could be made whether they should have cut Dorne too. I think it must play an important part in the future, because that has been the weakest part of the season for me. We’ll see, but even if it goes nowhere, it could have been a lot worse, with all the other potential extras.
3. It was also the right thing to not drag this out over 10 seasons. I don’t doubt it could make it, but the quality would have dropped (even more), as would the viewer ship. 7 (hopefully an extended seventh) seems like a sensible decision now.
But, in all honesty, these ratings don’t particularly matter any more. The fact that HBO don’t report them themselves anymore says it all.
Yeah, that has been my reasoning too. I think overall ratings will go up. And I also think this season has been (for whatever reason), until now, less exciting.
PS: Also people like new, shiny things to get excited about. I’m more excited about football (soccer) this year, like I was 5-6 years ago. I bet is the same in Torino 😉
Sue the Fury,
I agree. Anticipating the download figures, will we even get them soon?
In many ways, that’s how the show was for most of the first 3 seasons. There were big events (Ned, Blackwater, Dracarys, Red Wedding) and then a lot of episodes of setup, moving pieces into play, “hanging guns on the wall”, etc. It was really only the fourth season that had big events more evenly distributed across several episodes — and not coincidentally, it had the largest audience and most buzz. Going back now to re-set things up, re-move pieces across the board, etc. is going to turn off some of that crowd that showed up for the weekly “buzz”.
While this episode has the lowest initial-viewing numbers of the past 2 seasons, it’s still higher than all of the episodes of the first three seasons. Now we’ll just have to wait and see what happens with Memorial Day and the “big events” leading up to the finale.
I too would like to see the total numbers. Like was mentioned, people have things to do on holidays, putting kids to bed at 9pm on a Sunday or some other program was watched before they watched GoT’s first airing. I am not excusing, just sayin’.
When it all began it was “new” something different and there was a ton of sex and violence. This drew a younger audience who is not seeing the same thing now. I have read the comments that started even last year… “where is the boobage?” “just wanna see boobs”.
The Sullied are thinking that a drop has to do with veering away from the text, which has to be done now. As also stated, there were/are many MANY more viewers who are Unsullied as to Sullied.
I think… (always a bad way to begin) that there has been a jolt to the audience this past week. They will talk to people who have been watching later or less frequently. People who heard the internet explode will come back next week just to see what all the fuss is about. So even though it is Memorial long weekend, I think we will see a rise for next week.
That said, if there isn’t any boobage or fast action and violence, they will just fall away again.
After all is said and done? I am here until the end. How about you? *looks pointedly at the rest of the posters*
Answer:
Streaming and illegal downloads.
I highly doubt it has anything to do with quality…the show still remains very impressive despite the few missteps.
BeverlyMarsh,
Let’s be careful here and keep it civil, please.
Simeon,
People never remember the slow episodes. I’m sure we will get the same arguments halfway through Season 6 next year that “it is the slowest season yet”, and then go onto say all the big things that happened in previous seasons, including Season 5 (but those events are still to come at the moment).
‘Pirates did it, pirates did it!’ Steve the Pirate strikes again!
Moral anti-piratic panic spread through the fandom as the ratings are falling again. OMG! ONOZ!
Looking at these numbers makes me think that D&D decided to include the Plot I Won’t Name because they were worried that this season (for obvious reasons) would feel too slow much of the time and thought that having a POV character be raped would be the kind of Shocker that would get people talking and help keep up excitement over the Show Like No Other the way the Red Wedding did.
If that was their intent then it seriously backfired. As horrific as the RW was it was a game changer in the series and crucial to the larger narrative. This on the other was not only non-canonical but unnecessary. Basically ordinary viewers and critics alike were disgusted, considering it not only gratuitous but lazy cynical writing and its turning a lot of people off the show.
What I want to know is how much will the ratings drop be a result of Memorial Day and how much from people cancelling their HBO subscriptions after the last episode. Like people were angry about the sept scene last year, but the vitriol and backlash over Sansa is on another level and I have seen many people mention this was the last straw for them.
Any pirating numbers yet?
Seems that’s been breaking records each episode.
Oh, don’t you worry son, I don’t plan to go anywhere.
That sound to me like an excuse. People has always pirated the show. First airing ratings are dropping among those who have HBO. By the way, do we have HBO ownership numbers? I bet there are more people who own HBO now than 6 years ago. Or maybe there are less. Would be interesting to have % ratings, like season 1 20% of HBO owners watched HBO, season 4 was 15, or 25% etc
Really? Damn. Didn’t they skip that last year? I though it normally coincided with episode 9…of course they delayed the premiere this year
Pretty much agree, although maybe you could change c) from “drop in quality” to “narrative shift”. Or add a “d)” 😉
And a) is very true. Although as someone else was saying people maybe doesn’t watch it on the first airing, but surely will watch it at one time or another
Yeah, they already told me about Memorial Day
I would feel disapointed if ratings fall under 6 millions mark.
So far the numbers are similar to season 4, slightly lower. 🙂
I do urge you not to mistake internet uproar for how ‘ordinary people’ feel. It’s easy to be swept up by righteous fury, but that doesn’t make it indicative of anything.
I think it’s going to be really close to falling under 6 by season end. I’d be surprised if it fell under 6 though. But I think it’ going to get real close.
trish,
A lot of people swore they would never watch again after the Red Wedding, too. Only way to tell is to wait and see…
Son? *looks down* as Tyrion said, think again. 😉 But it is nice to be acknowledged either gender. I will remember to lift a glass to you at the end of season 7.
I dont understand the outrage! This is the show where they threw a boy out of the window and the guy who did is someone we are supposed to love now!
There was murdering the infant in brothel in season 2, they mutilated a mans penis in season 3, stabbed a pregnant woman, etc.
Rape is horrible but so is all the above, so why people only get outraged over rape and the others are just regular good old violence on TV?
BTW,im fine with showing every and any thing on TV, just pointing out a double standard when it comes to rape.
Delta1212,
I agree to some extent. It’s been a great accomplishment for a premium channel like HBO, in this era of TV (abundant programming, DVRs, downloads), to have a show with ratings this high. Even with a large drop in relative popularity, the show would retain a large following in absolute terms. Mad Men never even reached 4 million viewers for any episode during its entire run, despite being on basic cable, while Thrones has been above that mark since the Season 2 finale.
Still, I think popularity could factor into what resources are available for the endgame. Not that the Season 7 budget would be slashed, but the show’s popularity at this time next year could be the difference between a Season 4-level budget and a blowout, movie-level binge (which could be justified – dragons and ice zombies are expensive).
Simeon,
I know what you mean but the Red Wedding was different in that it drove the plot and future storylines in a crucial manner. It was imperative to have it, especially as book canon goes.
Sansa’s scene? Not so much. There was no need for it to happen like it did. In fact they could have just edited out Ramsay’s treatment of his wife on their wedding night, altogether. Yes they could have had Sansa marry him, to show her personal sacrifice in aligning with her family’s murderers, but for the actual last 5 minutes to have happened was unnecessary. Everyone knows Ramsay is a monster.
I’m racing and pacing and plotting the course,
I’m fighting and biting and riding on my horse,
…I’m going the distance.
Reckon I’ve got more chance of living long enough to see how it all ends on the show than waiting for the books (which, if published, I will still read in my dotage)
While I do feel the quality is down from seasons 3-4 (anyone who’s read the book shouldn’t be surprised by this), I still feel it is far better than the first halves of seasons 1 and 2.
The Dorne plot is bad, but it was bad in the books too. They changed it up to try to improve it, but it didn’t help. Same situation as the Dany-in-Qarth plot from season 2. The fight scene was bad, but not as bad as Hound v Mountain from season 1. Go watch it again if you don’t believe me, season 1 episode 5 I think.
I expect nothing else than a whole damn bottle! Make it a barrel!
As for son/daughter, yeah well, I speak High Valyrian and we don’t differentiate between genders in written language like you’d expect. Blame Google Translate. 😉
I remember people saying the show was critically finished after S03E06 (which scored high in the ratings with 5.5 million initial viewers)
Pau,
Not one of my un-sullied friends have stopped watching the show. I watch with four un-sullied then speak to all of my other un-sullied friends over the next few days. In addition, none of them complained (use whatever word you want) about the Sansa scene.
Now I don’t know much about ratings and my sample size is quite small but I believe the numbers for initial viewing are down because of all the different platforms HBO now offers and because of the fact that the older we get the busier we are which forces a lot of us to watch the show when we have time.
winnie,
Ok so once they have already taken Sansa to Winterfell (which in itself makes no sense logically) what other outcome could be seen?
Ramsay suddenly shows some mercy to this poor girl? Sansa skillfully manipulates this psycho and avoid this? Im wondering what other alternative people could think of to replace this scene with?
Again the initial idea of Sansa agreeing to go to WF and Boltons needing her makes no sense but given that what else could happen when you are wife and hostage of a sadist???
winnie,
For years people on this site have been stating how important the fArya storyline was to the overall plot and speculating over how it would be included on the show.
And now that one of the pivotal scenes from that part of the story has actually been included – in a manner significantly toned down from the source material, mind you – suddenly everybody is oh so outraged by it? Because it happened to a different character than people expected? Really? Really?
for 4 seasons we have watched the “good” guys suffer and lose.
People are NOT interested in watching ANOTHER season where Starks are marganilized for half of a season to sitting by the Wall, sweeping floors or getting raped by pscyhos knowing that the other half of the season nothing major will come of it and we will watch the Starks in season 6 suffer and wait on the lines out of the main action doing nothing .
Tibatonk,
This. I wish we had the ability to “like” comments.
Tibatonk,
That’s hypocrisy for ya. Had Jeyne been savagely raped on the show, I can guarantee that we wouldn’t be seeing this ‘outrage’, at least not even close to this level.
Hah! Arya havin’ yer cake and eatin’ it too?
Simeon,
I don’t know. Season 1 was pretty good about ending just about every episode on a mini-cliffhanger. I think as the show has progressed, that has contracted a bit with the end of each episode being a little less exciting, but the exciting endings to each episode being bigger. So instead of having Catelyn taking Tyrion into custody or Littlefinger betraying Ned in the throne room, you had Joffrey dying or Daenerys taking the Unsullied.
Season 1, very small cliffhanger almost every episode -> Season 2, slightly less consistent but will a little more oomph (shadowbaby, for example) when they did. Not a huge improvement over season 1 buzz-wise -> Season 3, a few good cliffhangers interspersed with a couple of doozies -> Season 4, every other episode was a major cliffhanger -> Now
We’re back down to season 2 level cliffhangers but with even less in the way of big punctuation marks. There has been plenty of good stuff (in my opinion), but the buzz comes form putting a solid exclamation mark at the end of the episode, and the big exclamation marks this season would have been fairly minor ones if they’d been in the last two seasons.
The show isn’t failing by any stretch and I’m not trying to be doom-and-gloomy about it. I just don’t think the structure of the season so far as been doing much to generate buzz. And that’s going to have an impact on whether the show is seen as appointment viewing or not. Not “Let’s abandon the show” levels of trouble, just “I can wait until tomorrow to watch this.”
only a tool will believe a drop in quality is the reason for game of thrones viewers to drop a little. its still for the most part an excellent show, and some of the best high quality made shows have much lower numbers. Viewership numbers reflect popularity not quality first and foremost. The Wire?
Season 5 has had some of the more intriguing plot drama than season 2/3 ever made. only season 1 and 4 in my opinion, had plots conjuring up this much intrigue. this is the first season Danny has had a particularly interesting drama to follow. Its also the first season the drama around jon snow and the wall is really fascinating to follow.
the only criticism i have of this season so far is the under-developed Dorne, and the weak characterisation of Elaria sand. the anger/revenge angle is really flat. very 2D. The only interesting dorne character that has had a touch of development to keep him more of a 3D character is Doran, and he’s barely been used yet.
viewership numbers have not dropped below what they ever were, they just aren’t booming like they have from season to season – even though there is evidence the fan base has actually increased. but for potentially several reasons average viewing people aren’t keeping up with the show on air night. thats really not surprising given that this season is setting up new plots after the main plots we were familiar with for 4 season kind of climaxed. (Starks, Tywin and Lannisters) The secondary plots are now filling those gaps and in my opinion doing so quite quickly.
I think we are sisters from another mister!! I will be right there with ya reading the books until they pry them from my cold fingers. I hope I make it that long. And I will remember to raise a glass to you at the end of episode 7.
All this talk of quality, high quality doesn’t mean people will watch it; give people what they want and they will watch it even if it is by a critic’s definition a complete load of dren. The viewing figures for “reality TV” are inexplicably high when it is undoubtedly low quality.
Even a much lauded programme like The Wire suffered ratings drops
OK so season 5 wasn’t necessarily the standard of the first 4 seasons but no-one knew that when the season premiere was shown so why the drop on live showing? Well it was offset by increased subscription for HBO’s On Demand service for one thing…
You’d need quite an in depth survey to ascertain why people choose to stop watching any show really, whether just the live broadcast or the whole thing. I suspect a variety and number of reasons and strongly doubt that a 3 season adaptation of FeastDance closely following the books would really have been the magic bullet.
serum,
Two of my friends just watched the latest episode, both females, and they thought the last scene was horrific but that they fully expected it. I asked if they were deterred and they replied that they were not. Not at all discounting people who have seen a decline in the number of their family/friends watching the show but from my end it is pretty much consistent with last season.
One friend did refer to the different pace of the show, and that she feels it has a season 1 vibe in terms of set-up, characters having a bit more room to breathe. She’s not sure if she’s quite enjoying it as much, but she’s willing to see it through to its conclusion and then make a more informed judgement.
What will be the reactions to the Walk, I wonder…
Delta1212,
Agree with all your arguments, especially the quality arguments (which are NOT the same as claiming the show veers away from the books, so let’s cut the book purist crap once and for all!). Other key takeaway: It’s Not Piracy, folks. So all the handwringing over the leaked episodes’ effects on ratings can stop thankfully andHBO can go back to bragging about most downloaded episodes etc…..
I also wish we had the ability to “like” comments- some folks on here are way more articulate than I am!
Why did you have to remind me? 😉
After the last episode, the Bandwagon Brigade will be just looking for something new to validate their preconceptions. I guess we’ll see.
Hear Marko Roar,
Historically, IMDB ratings have done an excellent job of predicting the box office of sequels for big films. That is, if Film #1 gets really high IMDB marks, then the sequel sells nearly as many tickets or even more tickets. If Film #1 gets lower IMDB marks, then the sequel sells fewer tickets.
IF you standardize for distribution, then IMDB marks do an OK job of predicting the box office of “first release” films, too. That is, they do a good job of predicting tickets sold per theater.
But this year is quite interesting. There is much less variance than in past years, and it’s been a constant increase rather than a general trend towards increase. (And we cannot blame the big drop on poor reception of Episode 41 because it was in the top half of all episodes, at least up to this point.)
(But, man, the lack of overall variance, and the lack of variance around the line is crazy!)
No need to call names. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. The people you know mean nothing statistically speaking. Some other people may like what you dislike.
I actually haven’t been as excited about GoT this year, so I haven’t seen episode 6 yet. I hear there’s a “Sansa controversy”. But even if I’m not computed in the ratings, I’ll watch the show and I’ll but the blurays. I think people will end up watching the show at a later point, so total viewership will go up.
I also think now that an extended season is less likely…and a movie some time in the future more likely than before, although still not very likely
That could be.
Good to hear. I have some friends that are less excited, and some that are equally excited. Haven’t seen the Sansa scene yet. But I saw something bad was coming.
Regarding the HBO platforms that would not explain the decline from episode 2 to episode 6 though.
No need to call names
Arden,
But Dorne is likely to prove much more important to the end game than the sub-plots in the Riverlands. It makes much more sense when you think about the long-term plan. Not only that but if they sent Jaime to the Riverlands then likely wouldn’t have had time to feature Dorne at all. Now admittedly it hasn’t been too great in Dorne so far bare in mind there have been multiple storylines and characters that have grown from meh to fantastic over the course of the show.
It might not make sense to you, but I doubt that the audience (who has watched shows like the Sopranos, Breaking Bad, the Tudors, Deadwood, etc., where these sorts of gambits happen) has a problem with it. They get that Sansa can get access to Winterfell through marriage to the people who occupy it: and they get that she’s seen how a woman in that position might be able to make more of that position. But they also get that she would not have know what a psycho Ramsay is. The fact that LF didn’t know much about him means that he has been a pretty well-kept secret: and the show has provided a bit of indication that the Boltons are good at keeping their doings unknown to the rest of the world.
Well, first time for everything and all of that…. 😉
I’m not sure if this is the real reason the ratings have drop, but at least here in Latin America the cable companies offered HBO for free only during the weekend the show premiered.
They were trying to persuade the public to get HBO, but as it’s like one of the most expensive cable channels here, most people continued watching the show on internet illegal streaming
1. Thanks for the insult. Way to keep it classy there.
2. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever of either a drop in quality or a viewer revolt. I see ZERO loss in quality (with the only possible exception being that I felt the Sand Snake duel was staged poorly, but there have always been little moments that could have been better), nor has there been any complaint of such – except for this past episode, and specifically directed at the end scene only – by the popular media. In fact, Rotten Tomatoes’ recap of reviews consistently shows the season – again, except for THIS episode – at or near 100% positive.
Every time something happens on this show, people say it’s lost quality. Every fucking time. And yet it’s only your opinion. Mine differs from yours. Others may agree with you. Many others don’t. That’s why they are opinions.
But unless you are willing to present factual evidence that a “loss of quality” of the show is resulting in “lower ratings” then I’d love to see it. Otherwise… no.
And incidentally: this is still HBO’s flagship series, still its highest rated show, and once again, you cannot equivocate a leveling out of ratings that have rapidly risen over five years to be a DROP. The ratings are roughly equal to or slightly higher than last year’s ratings. That does not prove any sort of trend, other than the distinct likelihood that it’s reached the maximum it will on a pay-per-view network. That maximum number was always going to happen eventually.
Spoilers from the comment section of the Iwon Rheon vulture interview. Brace yourselves
is coming.
http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/game-of-thrones-iwan-rheon-on-ramsay-sansa-wedding-night.html
I’m trying really hard here not to give away spoilers, but there is an upcoming story where there are very graphic rapes on camera, and we are in the midst of a story about what it was like to shoot THAT. In my mind, these are two very different things — one where the audience imagines a rape, because you get the prelude to the rape but not the actual rape itself on camera, and the other where the actors stripped nude and shot two very graphic scenes over a ten day period for rapes that are on camera. For that, I’m hoping that we’ve asked all the right questions/delved into all the subject matter in a sensitive way. It’s completely harrowing. And I hope that when you see that story, you’ll be a little less upset that we didn’t go into as much graphic detail here, given that this is a rape that you see in your head, not on screen.
Wimsey,
Do we know how much of an effect distance from airing has on the rating? We’re comparing episode ratings for the this season that, with the exception of the first episode, have many fewer votes than any from previous seasons, and even the first episode has close to half the votes of some previous episode. Past season episodes also have the luxury of being rated from the perspective of looking at their place in the full season whereas this season’s episodes obviously do not.
Do we know how much of an impact that has on how episodes diverge from the trend line? Or, equally, is it possible that the people most likely to rate an episode immediately after airing are also more likely to give it a higher rating on average? That would result in most episodes being artificially high at first and then dropping over time, which if you took a snapshot of their positions while it was happening, would look like a week over week increase, at least until enough time had past for the number of ratings to roughly balance out and everything take its correct position.
Not saying this is happening, mind you, but I always look for potential explanations for anomalies, which so far this season is on that chart.
BeverlyMarsh,
that doesn’t change the fact that you still watch it… in the end that’s what matters I think.
Look at the IMDB numbers that Hear Marko Roar posted. Now, you might (correctly) state that this is not a “scientific” poll. However, it captures a much (much!) broader spectrum of the viewing public than people you know just as a political election (also not a scientific survey) captures many more people than you know. Moreover, IMDB and similar sites has been shown to do a good job of predicting future viewership for film and TV series.
The viewers like what they are doing this season. Moreover, and this is a big thing: this is the sort of audience that can dislike what happens to Sansa intensely while at the same time appreciating the episode for what it did. Note how the highest rated Thrones episodes all fit this: they are the episodes in which the worst things happened to popular characters.
I use HBO Now and usually watch it at some point on Sunday night. I know this upcoming weekend that I won’t watch until sometime on Monday. Who watches live TV? I don’t think ratings are really useful anymore. Piracy numbers have gone up, so the same number or more of people overall are watching it somehow, be it illegally or streaming on Go or Now.
Quality wise, has the show suffered? I don’t know. I was really excited for it to come back and now I feel less excited. Did four episodes coming out early hurt hype and momentum? Maybe? Even if it’s just as great as it always was, people get fatigued. I wasn’t as excited when I got to books 4 and 5 and that wasn’t entirely because I didn’t find them to be as good as the earlier ones. There are lots of things I could nitpick about the show every year and I don’t because I’d rather enjoy it than focus on differences from the books or what I would do differently if I got to run the show. And while I really like episodes focusing on a smaller set of characters, that means that you might watch full episodes of story lines you don’t really like as much. Before you’d always get to catch up with everyone, for better or worse. I really really like this format better. But if Arya and Dorne aren’t keeping your interest, there are some episodes this season that just won’t seem very good to you.
Cameryn,
I agree that the quality of the show has not declined to people who haven’t read the books (I am a non book reader). Let’s just say that I know from work, friends, family, around 30 different people who are watching the show. ALL OF THEM watch it ANYWHERE but through the HBO channel. I am the only one who actually has the channel. LOL
I also know three people who started watching this year (new fans yaya!).
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the show. I think people are finding different ways to watch it.
Delta1212,
Given the nature of the sampling, these things will stablize once you get into the thousands. The big thing to remember about statistical distributions is that they tend to behave based on orders of magnitude: 1000’s, 10000’s, 100000’s.
For example, for Kill the Boy to drop to to the level of Wars to Come (8.5 overall at 7700 votes), it would need to average 8.3 over then next 5500. To do that after averaging 9.0 over the first 2200 is very improbable. Now, it’s a little easier to go that way than up because there is a truncation effect at 10: but after 2200 votes, one would conclude that the “true” popularity is somewhere between 8.8 and 9.1.
That would be cool to examine. One obvious pattern stands out: the episodes in which something horrible happens (Ned’s beheading, Red Wedding, Oberyn vs. the Mountain, the Children) all get really high marks. That indicates that drama with a twist works for the people voting at IMDB.
Other than that, there is the clear tendency for the episodes to pick up in popularity as the season continues. There is a simple and obvious explanation for that: people rank the “payoff” episodes more highly than the “setup” episodes, and the early part of season has a lot of setup.
But, you know, that would be cool to do: look at the residuals around the general trends and ask what those episodes have in common: what corresponds to an early season episode being popular or to a late season episode being unpopular?
Cameryn,
Cameryn,
Very well said! Excellent!
Turncloak,
egad…
Can we just have a fucking queensmoot please?
Wimsey,
Well, the episodes are moving up in 0.1 increments with the exception of a 0.2 jump between 3 and 4, so it wouldn’t take much in the way of variation in the scores of a couple episodes to throw off that steady upward trend.
But I do see your point and probably should have done the math myself.
It’s an uneventful season by Season 4 standards, people have been spoiled with huge moments in every episode, a lot of casual viewers are loosing interest because Season 5 is not following the same path. Plain and simple.
Game of Thrones has always been slow before Season 4, the majority of viewers doesn’t seem to remember that or maybe they weren’t watching the show back then.
Wimsey,
And in response to the second half of that, now I want to go and take some of the more easily quantifiable stuff and compare it to imdb ratings and see if I can come up with any patterns that might have some predictive power. Obviously you can’t quantify stuff like the Red Wedding easily (although now that I say this, you could probably do a “named character death count” or something along those lines, but I’m kind of loathe to do that now since that would probably be a case of picking a data point that I know will match up with specific episodes that have high ratings), but even just plugging in things like run time, or minutes on screen for specific characters would be interesting.
A related argument might be closer to the mark. A lot of current viewers “binge-watched” the show after hearing it was good. Given that each season tells a story rather than each episode, those people might just find it easier to watch in big chunks after they’ve DVR’ed it or get it through HBO On Demand, etc.
(And, I must admit, the show is better binge-watched: but the same is true for all of these “serial” series.)
Delta1212,
You could qualify it. Did prominent characters die? 0 or 1 (false or true to a computer). Was it a “likeable” or “unlikeable” character? (A bit subjective, but not too much so.) Subjectively, how shocking would it have been on a simple (say, 0-5) scale? Did it have a resolution or cliff-hanger ending? How much screen time did Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya, etc., have each? How many violent scenes were there? How many sex scenes were there? Did the people at Westeros.org hate it? (Oh, wait….) Etc., etc.
Hodor’s Bastard:
Turncloak,
That statement in the comments section is disturbing.
Turncloak,
o.O
Oh boy…
Turncloak,
I don’t think she means Got.
She said another story, which means article.
Ozymandias,
Season 3 had Jaime’s arm getting cut off and Dany’s “dracarys” scene. There has been good episodes this season but no big moments to get people talking except for the most recent episode which has created buzz but not in a good way.
Wimsey,
Exactly, binge-watching helps.
Will Episode 8,9 and 10 be enough to bring everyone back for Season 6?
JamesL,
Every buzz is good.
Ozymandias,
Personally, I would love it if they did what House of Cards or Orange is the New Black does, and release the entire season at once. Well, I write that: I’m not sure that 10 straight hours of TV viewing would leave me loving anything in the end…..
Yeah, it really has to be a scoring of all 45 episodes. That’s, um, a lot of work.
Turncloak,
Okay I got confused, I should have read more clearly. I thought those quotes were from Iwan. This woman is just a journalist for NYMAG, I don’t think she has any inside information on upcoming episodes. She was talking about another show she is doing a story on.
She uses “story” as a another word for “scene” in that same comment but I hope you are right
Turncloak,
what story line he is talking about ..if it is his story arc then stannis is fucked for sure
or its EURON
or its DOTHRAKI and dany lands to meet KHAL JHOQO
JamesL,
I’m hoping you’re right. She never clarified when someone asked her which show she was referring to with her last comment
mau,
and thanks for killing my hope
JamesL,
Every season has a different pace and a different character and that is what makes GOT so special. S5 is more like S3. The difference is that whereas S3 was staged around one event S5 is built on 4 which as it happens are concentrated in the last 3 eps. So far S5 has done an excellent work to tease us as to what will happen in the end of the season and not in the end of each episode.
the decline in viewership may also be result of some audiences dont have anymore characters or story arc they feel attached to or care about….
the loss of Tywin .,oberyn maybe the final straw for them ..
because OTAKU ASSEMBLE comes to my mind
OMG! OMG! The sky is falling!
The show is the 3rd most popular scripted show in the key demographic, only behind The Walking Dead and The Big Bang Theory. And that is based on Nielson ratings. And yet HBO has said they don’t care about those ratings. They care about the total number of eyeballs over the week with multiple platforms.
And did I mention International viewers?
GoT hardcore fans are starting to become a less then stellar bunch.
I said this in another comment thread: Season 3 was AMAZING and yet nothing of real importance or real consequence happened in the trio of episodes “Kissed by Fire,” “The Climb” and “The Bear and the Maiden Fair”. I remember being bored to tears by “The Climb” and yet I love this show. In this day and age of binge watching, people tend to blame shows that take their time to develop storylines over a season as being slow, but look back on them later as being exciting. I think this is true of most seasons of this show.
And in complete agreement with you, it doesn’t really matter either way. We already have Season Six confirmed. There’s no way HBO is going to cancel its flagship series before it can conclude it with Season Seven – absolutely no way whatsoever. Not unless it dropped to pre-season one ratings, and it’s likelier I’ll be the first man on Mars than that happening.
Cameryn,
Kissed by Fire was an amazing episode. It had the Beric and the Hound duel, Karstark execution and many other great scenes.
I think the weather getting nicer has a lot to do with viewership. It is May, the sun don’t go down until 9ish, the weather is finally hitting 70s after the brutal snow storms so I think a lot of people are out on the weekends enjoying the weather.
Well, I’ve been looking for a project I could apply a neural network to for the sake of practice. 46 episodes (probably 50 by the time I’d have time to actually do it, honestly) isn’t a very high number of data points, but if it’s just for fun, I might try it out anyway and see what happens.
Cameryn,
Kissed By Fire is one of the best episode of the series.
I remember being very disappointed after Episode 6 and 7, they were not even close to 4 and 5.
Didn’t say it wasn’t, but there were no major game-changing set pieces in that or the other episodes… it was simply a progression of storylines in the middle of season three, same thing that is happening now, same thing that’s happened each season. My point was just that people forget that we build up over time each season to what happens in the last few episodes…
mariamb,
I was reading that and I rushed over here to see if anyone knows more, but I’ll be honest, I can’t figure out if the reporter meant a GoT storyline. In a few comments above she mentions clearly that she publishes interviews with actors in different shows. She didn’t answer yet the question a poster put if the graphic rape is in GoT either. Waiting…
JamesL,
I’m thinking the same. She was likely talking about another show. (hopefully)
Every place I can go for a GoT fan website where the majority of people just want to bash the show now. I enjoy talking about the content of the show but that doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.
I agree that the show will finish and with a good budget to do so. There is no chance of it getting cut early.
Tormund’s Woman,
She previously mentioned writing about Outlander, which apparently has more graphic raping than GoT in it? I don’t know, but if I had to guess, that’s probably the show she’s referring to.
Cameryn,
So you are saying that a show that starts off great then has a decline in quality according to some viewers’ opinions does not lose any viewers for the first broadcast because of the perceived dip in quality of said viewer? Thank you for proving my first sentence in my first post true. Good day to you.
JamesL,
Yes, S3 may have been my personal favorite for individual scenes (not story)
Turncloak
That isn’t the way that I read that article at all and I read it twice just to be certain. The only thing “he” said is that he needs/wants to make sure Sansa gets pregnant…nothing more on how or when that would happen, if on screen at all. Or that it “Gets worse” unless you are Walda, then all bets are off.
I have to agree with you. If Jeyne or Myranda had taken Sansa’s place, the controversy wouldn’t be as big as it is.
When Theon suffered torture everyone made a joke about it, dick in a box, etc. No controversy whatsoever.
But I guess that’s double standards.
The Bastard,
I agree with your sentiments, and a couple of weeks ago I said I was going to give up posting in the comments sections. I changed my mind though, because if everyone who loves the show and who prefer to talk mainly about the positives stopped commenting, it would alienate a lot of these sorts of positive people from the site in general (e.g. westeros.org).
That’s not to say we shouldn’t mention negative things, but this whole cyclical recycling of the same arguments whenever something that is perceived to be negative comes up is very draining. I have now got to the point where I pretty much ignore what some users say, because I know it’s going to be negative, and I simply didn’t understand why people watch a show that they clearly hate. I said this earlier on another thread, but this site is better in the off-season when the crazies aren’t here, because you can get some really good discussions between people who actually like the show. These discussions cover both positive and negative things, but at least you know the poster is a genuine fan of the show, and wants to discuss how certain events could have been done in a different way to make the show even better. Because a lot of these negative posters during the on-season only bash the show, and seemingly want it to fail. I don’t see the point in that at all.
Jeb,
Yeah it makes no sense. I don’t post about shows I don’t like. That makes sense to me. I just don’t waste my time. I guess this is the price of a show becoming very popular.
The Bastard,
There is so much negativity in this world. It’s a shame 🙁
Jeb,
It can get annoying pretty quickly, which is why I seldom comment. Predictable controversy aside, all I read is how boring everything is, how bad is the choreography (suddenly everyone knows a lot about choreography), this sucks and I hope it fails, blah blah blah.
You’d think people would have better things to do than bitching on the internet. But then I remember this is the internet. Smh.
Does anyone know if the fight choreography team for this season is new, IMDB is showing that GoT has a whole new stunt director team for this season, which could explain the over staging of the Water Garden fight. If this is a new team, why allow the brilliant choreographer of the Hound/Arya Inn fight to leave, that was a perfect fight in all its intensity, brutality and realism. The Water Garden fight was like an old Errol Flynn swashbuckler, overly staged, lacking the elements from previous seasons.
It is high enough that if there are any strong tendencies, then they should be born out.
Given that artificial insemination techniques seem to be a bit non-existent in Westeros, I have a fair idea about the “how.”
If I follow this fairly incoherent statement correctly, then it seems to be based on several false assumptions. One, Thrones’ scores by audiences have gone up over the years. Two, Thrones ratings have gone up.
So, where is this huge decline in viewership that’s not turning up in other shows? Where is this decline in audience appreciation? Again, the audience marks have high this year, with the first five episodes all in the top half of the show’s history. It’s very possible that this season will be the highest scored yet by audiences.
The best episode of the whole show in my opinion.
Yes, you just like to bash the books, Martin and the one you call purists 😉
And here you are bitching about people bitching…Where would people bitch about the show if not here, a site devoted to the show? 😉
I think people that don’t like the show hasn’t seen this season. People bitching this season is mainly people that used to like the show and don’t anymore. But whatever.
I’m off to watch episode 6, see what all the fuss is about
Interestingly, it does not score well on IMDB. I’ve always wondered what correlation exists between how fans rank segments of a series vs. how the general audience ranks them. For the Harry Potter films, it was actually negatively correlated: the higher the marks that the films got on Harry Potter sites, the lower the marks on IMDB or Box Office Mojo.
Wimsey,
I can’t take IMDB seriously. It’s full of fanboys and trolls, so it’s always 10 or 0 for everything.
Arden,
I have to agree, this season has been really subpar so far. The honeymoon period is definitely over.
Wimsey,
I don’t put much stock in IMDB and similar sites. You yourself noted that they always give high marks to “shocking” or “big” episodes and regularly sideline slower and quieter ones. Kissed by Fire is a masterpiece, plain and simple.
I was playing around with that graph using different shows. I put in Dexter and practically choked on a laugh. That was funny.
1. Again with the insults. Keep it classy.
2. “Some viewers opinions” do not make a television audience comprised of tens of millions of people. You are proceeding from the very false assumption that your perception of a drop in quality is shared amongst many of those countless tens of millions of people. The FACTS are that, other than the controversy over this past weekend’s rape scene with Sansa, the vast aggregation of reviews in print and on the internet throughout the media do not reflect any drop in quality in the show and that is a FACT that Rotten Tomatoes has documented. You can look it up if you don’t buy it. That’s what RT does; it aggregates hundreds of reviews and documents them.
Can you please read that again, over and over, so I don’t have to say it a third time? You and your friends may not like it anymore. Fair enough. But to state that there is a noticeable drop in quality of the show by large numbers of people — other than about the final scene of the last televised episode, which is a different issue entirely — is not supported by any evidence whatsoever.
There is no “decline” of ratings this season. There is a LEVELING OUT of ratings. The ratings match last year’s, more or less.
And I’m willing to bet there’s no significant drop in viewership in next week’s numbers, either. Television doesn’t work that way.
Exactly. And we haven’t even seen episodes 7-10 of this season yet, traditionally where the drama really ramps up each year.
It kinda reflects the source material, doesn’t it? I see many complaints about the season being slow, subpar, etc. But no-one points out the obvious reason: the strongest stuff (the first three books) have already been used, and we’re left with AFFC and ADWD.
But no, when people do refer to the books, it’s to whine about how Arianne, Quentyn, Coldhands, Ironborn and other filler characters and/or subplots got cut. As if we needed even more characters whose subplots don’t go anywhere. Or turtles. Or lists of food. Or endless wondering from Tyrion about the place where whores go.
As if that would improve the show in any way. Granted: The Sand Snakes are cheesy. But I’ll take their cheese over the subpar Riverlands subplot from the books.
Yep, and that always seems to happen when a show reaches its latter years. Game of Thrones had nowhere to go but starting to attract dissent. That’s fair and all, but it’s also extremely predictable. TV shows are “never as good as they used to be”. 😉
Arden,
Tommens vagina, pedofinger, poor loras, cersei still breathing…..im putting all my faith in lady olenna.
Episode 6 piracy busts the Episode 5 record!
http://variety.com/2015/digital/news/game-of-thrones-piracy-record-downloads-1201500870/
Boojam,
Crazy!
Again, these sites are excellent predictors for relative future viewership for both TV and films. So, it’s hard to not put stock in the numbers: it’s long past the point where we can dismiss it as random.
That isn’t even close to being true. The scores typically follow a normal distribution once you account for truncation at 0 or 10; you do get a log-jam there because people cannot give 11, 12, 13, etc. or -1, -2, -3 for Michael Bay films. However, if you estimate the expected number of those given the distributions of 1-9 scores, then you can predict the distribution of 0’s or 10’s. (There are some very rare exceptions to this, but that is to be expected: the means follow a distribution, too, and those few truly great or truly awful movies/shows get so many 10’s that it’s tough to estimate what the real mean would be.)
Moreover, the correlation between how a show/film does and what future numbers are like (assuming that there is a sequel or subsequent season) are highly significant. That pretty much falsifies the idea that these scores are independent from customer satisfaction.
Now, there are fanboys and/or trolls who turn up: but it seems that they have little effect on the overall scores. If they did, then IMDB scores would not have any predictive power.
The show is more popular than ever!
Tibatonk,
I agree. I don’t quite get the outrage over this scene, given all the horrors that have been more graphically depicted on this show since the beginning. Yes, we already know Ramsay is a monster, but that doesn’t mean the shock of this realization for Sansa should be left to the imagination. They shot the scene without showing any of it…just Theon’s reaction, which gave witness to what she was enduring. It was not sexualized or particularly graphic. And it was a logical part of this storyline.
And who is to say it won’t drive the plot or her character in the future? Until now Sansa has not fought back as Arya would have. She has survived in a different way. But maybe this will light a fire under her, spur her to take action to save herself and even strike back at him. Maybe she will reach the point where she would rather endanger her life than endure one more minute of this abuse.
I don’t think anyone can know it was gratuitous until we know what happens down the road.
BTW I thought this episode was mediocre, but that was not because of the Winterfell scenes which IMO were well-done and well-acted. Because of the Dorne scene which was so comically awful it dragged the whole episode down to a 6, IMO. But there was plenty to enjoy.
So are you saying that D&D are great adaptators of genius, but can’t really create any really remarkable stuff on their own? Yeah, could be. Let’s hope TWOW is good then 😉
I actually think the Riverlands would have been much better than Dorne myself. Just tweak it here and there, send Bronn with Jaime if you want, and have the Brotherhood, Edmure, the Blackfish back…and send Brienne there, instead of the north. Maybe mix the greyjoys too. Or even Littlefinger+Sansa. Whatever they devised to keep all the existing storylines interconected, instead of adding more and abandoning some.
Oberyn was amazing, in the books and in the show, but Dorne kinda sucks in both.
Totally agree with you ~ I liked the first three, but 4, 5 and 6, very disappointing. Too much repetition in both dialogue and character actions. I had such high hopes for Dorne ~ thought that the exotic Martells would be scheming and plotting in those lavish surroundings ~ instead, awkward, disjointed fight sequences, bad dialogue, total waste of Alexander Siddiq, and Jaime and Bronn looked ridiculous in those costumes. IMO, even Jaqen and Arya’s scenes are a little flat. Couldn’t we see the lethal side of Jaqen? While Arya is sweepng the floor for the 100th time, couldn’t Jaqen change his face, going all “Penny Dreadful-like”, with those beautiful blue eyes turning a demonic red, and execute some brutal revenge killings in the back alleys of Braavos? So far, Jaqen looks more like a Benedictine monk, than a lethal killer. My boyfriend and I actually didn’t mind the Ramsay/Sansa scene ~ we knew it was coming and at least something big and important happened. Finally! I did like Loras a lot in this episode – he looked awesome and he lied very well. Liked Olyvar too. The next 4 episodes will probably be awesome ~ it’s just taking a long time to get there.
The Riverlands is a dead horse that does not need to be kicked anymore. The Red Wedding happened, the Tullys lost with the Starks, the Freys have ascended: and most importantly, the two main characters in the Riverlands now are dead. We don’t need denouement: we need the over-arching plot to keep moving forward.
Now, I do agree that Dorne was bad in the book. However, the problem was not the background, but the protagonist. Had an established protagonist with an interesting storyline been there, then it might have worked. Instead, we got Arianne. That’s why this solution looks pretty good. Jaime has an interesting story in the book: it’s just bogged down by the “why is this still a thing?” plotline in the Riverlands. Unfettered, it could be really good.
And, let’s face it: they are 6 episodes down in what has been a pretty crowded season, and they still have a lot to do in 4 hours. There just isn’t room for much else. I am hoping that they get a move on it with Jaime’s story, however. It’s been slow to unwind, and unlike other storylines, they haven’t really clearly stated it yet.
I’ll disagree with you in the sense that, as a complete story, there should be some resolution with the Frey question. I’m pretty positive that at some point we’ll see Walder Frey back, and someone will definitely kill him – Arya is the most likely candidate here, especially since it would be pretty much a full circle for her (since she was right outside when her family fell). My guess would be that we also see Brynden Tully back as well to aid her.
But I still think anyone pining for the Iron Islands storyline to appear on the show is going to be waiting the rest of their lives… 🙂
Agreed! I cannot imagine the show would end without us seeing or hearing at least something of the Freys.
That’s a character issue, not an area issue. We’ve got more than one character with possible trajectories that will account for Walder Frey. We don’t need the Riverlands to see a Stark deal out justice.
heh, quite possibly. At least there was a pretext for moving one of the primary characters to Dorne: and for all of the vetching about the Sand Snakes, the Dorne scenes have been primarily about Jaime. However, no one has suggested any way to get one of the main characters to the Iron Islands. The show can keep introducing secondary characters at this point, but it’s much too late to create new leads, so without an existing lead to transplant there, it just would not work on TV.
Tereeza777,
Yes, Arya’s storyline has been one of my biggest disappoints so far this season. I enjoyed her scenes in the recent episode but I don’t see why they are moving so slow with it. Many of the storylines in AFFC/ADWD don’t translate to great TV but that is not that case for Arya’s story. This should have been one of the main bright spots of the season. There is so much they could be doing with this storyline but all the have is her washing floors and bodys and Jaqen acting like a dick.
And Jaqen acting like a dick has been another disappointment. What happened to the cool suave Jaqen from season 2 that everybody loved. I was really looking forward to seeing him again this season but I do not like the direction they have gone with the character and his relationship with Arya. I think this storyline would work much better if Jaqen was a more friendly and likable teacher.
JamesL,
HOw would it work much better if JAquen was a nice teacher? Wouldn’t it be boring then? So far we have seen Arya 3 times. Arrival, Entrance and Training. It is not supposed to be a fun training. Its not Disney she is in. The scenes in this episode were excellent. Stunning visuals escorted by very good script and Maisie in form. In the last episode we had the beginning of the training, the mystery of the other room and Aryas denial to leave the past behind (for which she gave an excellent performance). So far I don’t see the proble. It feels organic, consistent, well played and done. And your analysis of the “problem” with the Arya’s scenes is that Jaquen is not nice?
dothrakian raven,
I liked the the scenes in the recent episode but they should have happened earlier in the season. I think they are taking too long to get her storyline going. They could have rewrote and paced her storyline differently and had her training earlier.
What earlier? This is a multiple plot series and especially this season we are going to get 4 major big events in the end of it and they need to build elaborately on each one of them. I think Arya’s plot has been developed in a very concise and articulate way and placed well within this seasons rythm. Her training is a time for reflection about who she is and who she wants to become, a time in which she has to get rid of her old shell and grow up. I don’t see any other way than the one they have chosen. Spartan, esoteric and not forced.
You just lack some knowledge about it.
As a book fan of Song of Ice and fire I should inform you that a really big community of fans gathered in the social media when the TV adoption of the novels was still an idea to support the cause. I believe that a network like HBO took these fan numbers in account in order to invest to one of the most expensive TV shows.
Also If you want to talk with numbers, how it is possible a book with 24 million sales worldwide and a TV pick of 8 million viewers to have most of it’s viewers ignorant of the books? Sales info source: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire#Sales)
I still watch the show but I’m completely disappointed with the changes in the storyline in 5th season.
Vladimir Argaard,
Well that’s the issue with a large portion of hardcore book readers (purists). It was from the beginning a game of power and control regarding the ASOIAF world. These book readers wanted to have and in the end they were positive with a visual equivalent of the books, on the condition that they would be able to control it through forums, channels, netgroups etc. They thought that if the books become a show the show, if it was faithful to the original material, wouldn’t manage to catch up with the yearlong gaps between the books and therefore they were expecting that GRRM would manage to finish the books in time. But hey this never happened and the worse nightmare became a reality. The show is ahead of the books! A great deal of these purists have lost the privilege to control the translation of the books into the visual medium and now they do sit uncomfortably in the throne of the spoiler room they made for themselves. Not only this, the material of the books has reached its current limits with no new book in the horizon. GOT became an entity of its own and D&D have managed to deprive them of a way to phantasise a world which they regarded as their own. The changes that were announced for S5 was the last drop. After that they wouldn’t accept any changes, they wouldn’t tolerate the omission of their favourite characters, they wouldn’t let the series to dethrone them from their ASOIAF rights. So now it’s a war. The show is boring, slow, Sansa in Winterfell??? no way, Dorne is Evil, No Greyjoys yet and still Brienne alive??? unacceptable etc, etc… And this will go on until the end…
dothrakian raven,
You are not wrong.
Cameryn,
You are retarded… Of course it is an opinion. But there good opinions and bad opinions. Good taste and Bad taste. Intelligent people and Stupid people. Sometimes opinions are facts, other times no. I don’t say he is right or not, but the excuse that “IT IS JUST AN OPINION” is the excuse of those without arguments or brain capacity to support their own cause with some good arguments.
And the rating has dropped because of hbo now. Also the other streaming services are more spreaded as well. Actually overall the show probably has better ratings than in season 4. Anyway, the increase in viewership is that big as in the last years. The show is probably starting to pick.
Now, about the quality. Indeed, so far after 6 episodes the quality isn’t the same as in the first seasons, but isn’t too far either, and it can pick up in the last four, especially with hardhome, Faith, Fighting Pit and maybe for the watch and and battle of the winterfell.
jhjjg,
I am sorry to inform you but opinions are not facts. Opinions are opinions and facts are facts. Two seperate things. Not being able to discern and understand the difference between opinion and fact urgently classify you to someone with severe lack of basic education.
What does this part have anything to do with the current makeup of the show’s viewership. I get what it has to do with some fans’ entitlement complex toward the show (“I helped this show even get made by posting about it online and now they aren’t making it the way I wanted!”) but not why that is even remotely evidence that most of the audience are book purists.
Morgoth,
I like both books, I just don’t feel like D & D have done a great job at adapting them. Cutting out Arianne Martell, Victarion Greyjoy and Euron Greyjoy was a gigantic mistake IMO. The stuff with the Kingsmoot would of been great, I would of loved to of seen Euron’s speech + the Dragon Horn on screen 🙁
Oh and BTW Jaime’s arc in AFFC is waaaaaaay better than the shit we’re getting at the moment. D & D have made him out to be a complete plonker this season.
Long time since I posted!
Wow, the new episode seems to get a lot of negative reaction.
I loved it! I think it’s the best of season 5 so far, followed closely by The Wars To Come and Kill The Boy.
I guess the negativity has a lot to do with the last scene. I saw a critic saying tha we did not need to see the horror, because we already knew Ramsay was a sadist. Of course we need to fucking see Sansas wedding night!!!! it’s been built up trough five seasons, her virginity an holding on to her inncense a big part part of character. Now, when she finally gets married, of course we need to see the wedding night.
It’s ugly, but it’s sansas complete realisatiobn into coldness. It was a perfect point in her character, and had us caring more than in the books. I watched it and almost turned it off, since it was just so sad and heartbreaking, but I want a movie or tv-series to do that to me. I felt Sansas despair!
And the two other major storylines in this episode are equally mesmerizing. Aryas s5 arc is so dark and beautiful at the same time. Equal parts comforting and disturbing. She has actually found Peace now, finally. No one is going to rape or torture her in the house of Black and White, she can leave anytime she wants. But when she goes to that epic room (oh fuck, that was sick!), she is presented with the prize, whih is all that she is. Fantasy when it’s darkest and best.
The Sparrows arc is also slowly getting more tense. The trial was great, and very well written. It was fascinating to Wwatch five seasons of hipocrisy suddenly crumple in the face of an unyealding fanatic. The inclusion of the sparrows and the timing (religion rising in the aftermath of a great war) is dramatically just superb. When done this way, religion in narrative, can be so terrifying. and I gotta mention Lancel Lannister. His character develoment is haunting and the actor has managed to grasp all facets of his character: The fumpling squire in seasn 1, the arrogant newly annointed knight in season two, and now the brainwashed fanatic in season 5. Definately one of the shows most impressive acting performances. You can actually see in his eyes how far gone he is. (and by the way the choice to actually show lancel getting the seven pointed star cut into his forhead, was really great)
So yeah, until now I think seaso 5 keeps the quality from the other seasons. And Unbowed, Unbent, unbroken is, to me in the top 10 of got episods. And it’s remarkable that most of it were actually off-book. That’s probably why Theres all the negativity. Ayway I loved it!
Perhaps it’s because there are over 300 million people in the US, and over 7 BILLION people worldwide?
Nobody knows how many book readers there are who watch the show and are counted among the ratings, but… I guarantee you it’s probably not much more than the statistical probability (8 billion book sales in the US versus 300 million people is a statistical likelihood of 2.5%).
You are mistaken.
I see no reason to argue with another person who uses insults as part of his/her dialogue. Suffice to say, you are wrong. Absolutely wrong.
its getting boring & boring
Uh oh – we all know Ramesy Bolton hates boring – look out 😉
Cameryn,
Oh, I think it’s a fair bit above that, because the chances of a person who read the books prior to the show airing watching the show is not equal to the chances of someone who had not read the books deciding to watch the show, and the chances of a person who has seen the show beginning to read the books is not the same as the chance that a given random person who has not seen the show will start reading the books.
I’m quite confident that a higher percentage of show watchers have read the books than in a random sampling of the population.
But I agree that it’s nowhere near as high as he is implying. Heck, the total US audience of people subscribing to HBO, leaving aside pirates, is more than double the total US book sales.
Tereeza777,
Oh Tereeza, please don’t wish for GoT to be like “Penny Dreadful” – tried to watch that but it’s not my cup of tea.
The 24 million number is both across 5 books AND post-show launch, which means a decent number of those people were show-watchers first.
Even ignoring that second fact, that’s 5 million at most North American readers …. of roughly 20 million who watch weekly in the US alone… at best you are 1/5th being book readers in the US and likely lower. Plus a bunch of those people aren’t the purist type.
Add in people who already hate the show and a the vast majority of book readers who like the show — remember, the internet communities are a tiny, tiny subset of the reader community, and while I’m sure some people have left … it’s not likely to be a huge driver. That same wikipedia entry puts Westeros at under 20k users, and while there are many, many lurkers, I am sure, I doubt the vocal angry folks actually number more than 200-300.
And they keep watching week after week for no apparent reason.