First footage of Game of Thrones season 8 revealed!

jon season 8

It’s not much but you know what? WE’LL TAKE IT! Tonight HBO unveiled a new “Coming Soon” video with snippets of upcoming series and new seasons of their shows, including Game of Thrones! Coming in 2019, in case we had started to doubt.

The video includes a fair bit of Game of Thrones footage but most of it is actually from season 7. There is however a quick shot at the 1:10 mark of Jon and Sansa that looks to be new.

So we’ve got a somber Stark family hug, which gives us something to speculate on! Finallllllllllly!

The rest of the video features shots of Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Arya, Gendry, and Davos from season 7 scenes. The quick blur of shots in the rest of the video unfortunately don’t hold anything interesting but watch it again and feel the hype!

588 responses

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    1. Finally! This is probably the most non-spoilerly thing they could’ve showed us. This or a shot of Cersei in KL.

      But I really hope they’re not doing the whole “will Sansa betray Jon” thing again.

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    2. Wonder if this is from when Aegon arrives back at Winterfell for the first time since last season or is it from later in S8?

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    3. I watched the video just before coming here, and that scene stood out to me as well as being new. So sneaky HBO, inserting that in there amongst all the season 7 footage. 🙂

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    4. Also, regarding the premiere and Emmy eligibility James Hibberd just said…

      “GoT returns for its final six episodes that will air during the first half of 2019. There have been reports over the weekend claiming the show’s return has been “delayed” to mid-2019 making not eligible for Emmys until 2020. Rest assured, “first half of 2019” means exactly that, and HBO expects the show will air all its episodes in time for the 2019 Emmy eligibility cut off.”

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    5. I have a very strong feeling Sansa and Arya won’t like Dany, especially since they will have extreme trust issues now (for good reason).

      The parentage reveal is going to cause big problems for the camp.

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    6. The True Detective teaser tonight also said it returns in January. I was expecting that they would put it back in that window. Assuming they have 8 episodes again I would say that means GoT would then not premiere before TD is finished in mid-March. I’m still looking at mid-April.

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    7. Clob:
      The True Detective teaser tonight also said it returns in January.I was expecting that they would put it back in that window.Assuming they have 8 episodes again I would say that means GoT would then not premiere before TD is finished in mid-March.I’m still looking at mid-April.

      They showed Big Little Lies as well, which could premiere after TD. That would put GoT even further out.

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    8. Jack Bauer 24: They showed Big Little Lies as well, which could premiere after TD. That would put GoT even further out.

      It’s possible, but I’m going to guess that it won’t. TD had an individual trailer with January specified so that appears certain. BLL just wrapped on their filming as well. For the hell of it though… If TD premieres Jan. 6th with 8 episodes that leaves seven open weeks between its finale and April 21st (my target date). BLL season 1 was seven episodes. That’s a tight schedue to plan but could work without skipped weeks.

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    9. Clob: It’s possible, but I’m going to guess that it won’t.TD had an individual trailer with January specified so that appears certain.BLL just wrapped on their filming as well.For the hell of it though…If TD premieres Jan. 6th with 8 episodes that leaves seven open weeks between its finale and April 21st (my target date).BLL season 1 was seven episodes.That’s a tight schedue to plan but could work without skipped weeks.

      Very possible, but I’m thinking June for GoT. Even though BLL just wrapped filming, they shouldn’t need too much post production time since it is not VFX heavy. I think they could be ready to premiere by March.

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    10. Not exactly a big leap, but I imagine this is Jon and co. riding into Winterfell and Sansa staring past Jon to look at Daenerys and/or various other strangers in her entourage.

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    11. Well, that was akin to licking my finger after wiping a smidgen of chocolate off a child’s chin. I would have been better off not tasting it at all!

      On another note, I’m all sorts of stoked to see that Mahershala Ali is in S3 of True Detective.

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    12. Sean C.:
      Not exactly a big leap, but I imagine this is Jon and co. riding into Winterfell and Sansa staring past Jon to look at Daenerys and/or various other strangers in her entourage.

      Totally agree. I don’t think the Stark sisters are going to be too fond of this alliance, even if Jon and Dany present themselves as a “couple”. Her Dad is responsible for plenty of heartache in the Stark camp and while she may not be her Father, she is guilty by association. Wonder if the parentage reveal will have them asking Jon to pick a side.
      I am actually really interested in seeing Jaime arrive in the north and Bran remembering that he is responsible for his injuries. I sort of feel like that will be forgiven fast and shoved aside (Bran is an absolute shell of a Stark now) but I’m still interested in how the rest of the Starks will react.

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    13. Sean C.:
      Not exactly a big leap, but I imagine this is Jon and co. riding into Winterfell and Sansa staring past Jon to look at Daenerys and/or various other strangers in her entourage.

      Strangers…or perhaps a most familiar ex-husband? Sansa’s reunion with Tyrion is bound to be highly awkward. At least they seem likely to do some wary circling of each other at first.

      The look on Jon’s face as her approaches her seems full of worry or concern. Makes me wonder who else just died.

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    14. Kells: Totally agree. I don’t think the Stark sisters are going to be too fond of this alliance, even if Jon and Dany present themselves as a “couple”. Her Dad is responsible for plenty of heartache in the Stark camp and while she may not be her Father, she is guilty by association. Wonder if the parentage reveal will have them asking Jon to pick a side.
      I am actually really interested in seeing Jaime arrive in the north and Bran remembering that he is responsible for his injuries. I sort of feel like that will be forgiven fast and shoved aside (Bran is an absolute shell of a Stark now) but I’m still interested in how the rest of the Starks will react.

      If anything the parentage reveal could make the alliance more palatable.

      Harder to defame the Mad King’s daughter when Jon is the Mad King’s grandson

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    15. Firannion: Strangers…or perhaps a most familiar ex-husband?

      Tyrion may well be in the scene, but that’s quite unlikely to be who she’s staring daggers at, since the show has been very insistent about making their relationship chummy.

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    16. This tiny footage gave me so much happiness. I can’t wait for more!!

      Hopefully we get an actual teaser by the end of October.

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    17. BeardedOnion:
      I have a very strong feeling Sansa and Arya won’t like Dany, especially since they will have extreme trust issues now (for good reason).

      No way! Arya is a Targaryen warrior woman fangirl.

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    18. Clob:
      Jack Bauer 24,
      TD: Jan. 6 – Feb. 24
      BLL: Mar. 3 – Apr. 14
      GoT: Apr. 21 – May 26 (and make the eligibility deadline)

      I’m still going to refuse to believe a June or later premiere.

      Same. A June premiere would inevitably have at least 1 or 2 episodes airing in July, which in my mind is a violation of the assertion that it will air in the “first half of 2019”.

      On another note, even though season 2 of TD was a noticeable step down from the amazing first season, I’m looking forward to the third season. It will be good to have a show to watch early in the year leading up to GoT!

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    19. Pigeon:
      Oh, whatever. Sansa hugging Jon was SO Season 6. 😜

      BRING ON ARYA.

      You read my mind!! 🙂 Although I reckon that a good 93.5% of her scenes next season are spoiler-ific.

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    20. I’m still going to refuse to believe a June or later premiere.

      Same.
      Enharmony’s right; a June premiere wouldn’t allow the whole thing to air in the first half of the year, so *buzzer sound* on that. ;p I’d bet on April (maybe smaller amounts on March or, ugh, May.)

      Yeessss, I knew Tormund & Beric would still be around. 😀
      Not sure whom Sansa’s looking at like that, but I wouldn’t bet on it being Tyrion. Guess Dany is a fairly likely assumption.
      All these reunions are gonna be fascinating, and of course finding out how everyone reacts to the truth of Jon’s parentage. I doubt it’d take long for Arya to warm up to Dany even if she were also initially mistrustful.
      And yeah, Bran may now accept that Jaime throwing him to the ground was just something that had to happen in order for him to become the 3ER. Gotta wonder about the others, though.

      House Monty: If anything the parentage reveal could make the alliance more palatable.

      Harder to defame the Mad King’s daughter when Jon is the Mad King’s grandson

      ^ True.

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    21. OH MY GOD! My babies, they look so in love! Jon looks so guilty about putting Sansa through all of this but she’ll feel better once she knows he doesn’t have feelings for the Targ.

      HBO knows where the real chemistry is at!

      Nice try Sue, calling it a “somber hug”. I bet you already know all about their sexy season 8 scenes wink wink.

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    22. Kells: Totally agree. I don’t think the Stark sisters are going to be too fond of this alliance, even if Jon and Dany present themselves as a “couple”. Her Dad is responsible for plenty of heartache in the Stark camp and while she may not be her Father, she is guilty by association. Wonder if the parentage reveal will have them asking Jon to pick a side.
      I am actually really interested in seeing Jaime arrive in the north and Bran remembering that he is responsible for his injuries. I sort of feel like that will be forgiven fast and shoved aside (Bran is an absolute shell of a Stark now) but I’m still interested in how the rest of the Starks will react.

      Arya, i think it will depend on how Jon treats her, will they be able to rekindle with closeness or will he keep her at a distance because she is young or a girl, etc… I think Sansa will have problems with it regardless, she will see them as a threat to her power /security – she finally has agency of her own and won’t want to give it up. But again, it could depend on how Jon handles it and how Dany tries to impose her own authority around… or how quickly the NK arrives and makes all the bickering moot 🙂

      Well, actually Bran doesn’t have to remember Brienne already knows, he confessed to Catelyn and her when he was Robb’s prisoner… she could tell everyone, if Bran doesn’t, but I doubt she would, but maybe seeing them together will cause a conflict within her (doubt it though).

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    23. Shelle:
      And yeah, Bran may now accept that Jaime throwing him to the ground was just something that had to happen in order for him to become the 3ER. Gotta wonder about the others, though.

      Really? I thought Bran would have become the 3ER even if he hadn’t been hurt, it was his destiny to become a greenseer in the great war to come, just like Dany had her destiny to give ‘birth’ to the dragons. Out of everyone in GOT, those two are the only two with magical destinies to fulfill (maybe Jon too, but not quite as magical)

      I always saw his wolf as more of a jump starter for his powers, not the fall… just like his other siblings gain similar though lesser abilities through their connection to their wolves (not in the show, but the books)… did I miss something?

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    24. Wow a Jonsa scene as the first scene of S8??.

      ..so maybe they ARE going for a love triangle here (GRRM always writes ships involving 3 people)

      I wonder if S8 will be about “Aegon” and his sisters – and Dany gets frozen out.

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    25. This certainly looks like new footage, Sansa staring at the dragon queen and she is not pleased, at least in the beginning. The clip before this from Big Little Lies is also brand new, as well as the True Detective tease.

      The EW article contradicts an earlier statement made saying that it might air outside of the 2019 Emmy eligibility period so if EW is to be trusted, GoT would air alongside Veep’s final season. For years, GoT and Veep aired together in April and HBO might pair those two together again for maximum Emmy chances, GoT is their outstanding drama contender and Veep is its comedy series Emmy darling. These are their current flagship shows in drama and comedy, and both have won tons of Emmys so pairing them up in April for their final seasons would make sense.

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    26. MMJ,

      Arguably the biggest and the most popular characters gets frozen out? Nope, as mel said she has a big role to play.

      Love triangle that serves what actually? There’ll be enough problems to go around with his parentage, J & D and WW etc.

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    27. Not much, but yes we’ll take it! Hyped!

      MMJ,

      We already have a love triangle with Daenerys, Jon and Jorah. No point in another one.

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    28. Is this usual practise for HBO? In the U.K. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an advert for an upcoming show that uses footage from previous seasons. Why do that? It doesn’t create the same level of interest and they’ve obviously got footage of Season 8 they could have used.

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    29. MMJ,

      I would not call it a love triangle. Jon and Sansa are in love with each other. Just look at Jon’s face walking to her. It’s all there. Danerys is not part of the equation, Jon only brought her home for her dragons.

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    30. Sansa & Jon or Dany & Jon, both are icky, Sansa less icky but still related by blood. Only in GoT where incestuous relationships have shippers 🙂

      All this “Stark sisters vs. Dany and Tyrion” drama the writers are trying to build would be more believable if they don’t have the all-seeing three eyed raven there with them at Winterfell. Bran could make it easier for everyone if he would just rewatch/binge-watch(just like what the rest of us are doing) Dany, Tyrion and Varys’ journeys for the past 7 seasons, then proceed to explain to his sisters that their motivations are good. Arya and Sansa believed him with all that Littlefinger information he had from the past, so why shouldn’t they do the same for Tyrion, Dany etc., if the information comes from Bran himself?

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    31. I wonder if Arya is going be suspicious of King Jon and Queen Daenerys and question Jon’s intentions and character like she (Arya) was suspicious of Sansa in season 7?

      Especially after Bran aka: 3ER tells everybody who Jon’s real parents are and what Jon’s real name is.

      Jon finding out who his mother is (was) could happen Sunday May 12th 2019 which is Mother’s Day in the USA.

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    32. firstone:
      I wonder if Arya is going be suspicious of King Jon and Queen Daenerys and question Jon’s intentions and character like she (Arya) was suspicious of Sansa in season 7?

      Sandor’s gonna tell Arya about Dany’s courageous rescue of the Snow Patrol at the Frozen Lake. Arya + Dany = BFF.

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    33. Pigeon:
      Oh, whatever. Sansa hugging Jon was SO Season 6. 😜

      BRING ON ARYA.

      I know. The way I see it, Sansa’s story was essentially concluded in S6-S7, i.e., defeat LF and become Lady of WF.

      Arya’s Act III has not yet begun. They had her treading water throughout S7.

      S8 should be Aryacentric. 👸🏻

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    34. viki,

      I think Jamie is going to have a tough time being accepted by the Starks for a couple episodes…

      When the Night King attacks Winterfell. Jamie will probably save one or two Starks lives or maybe Brans life … then Jamie will be forgiven for pushing Bran out the window… Jamie’s brave and heroic acts will be witnessed in season 8 and written in the books of books.

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    35. Ten Bears,

      I think there will be conflict for a couple episodes and then when the Night Kings Army attacks Winterfell everybody realizes they need to fight together to defeat the White Walkers and it will be a repeat of the Snow Patrol rescue… previous enemies will be saving each other from death just like what happened in S7 E6 Beyond the Wall.

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    36. Am I the only one who saw a teeny tiiiny NEW shot of Beric in the final flurry, looked like aftermath of the WallFall??? Going back to check, I only watched once and didn’t try freezing the frame.

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    37. Ten Bears,

      Since Arya follows the many faced God aka:death and the night king is the King of Death… Those two are going to have one hell of a one on one winner takes all fight to the finish. Arya vs. Brienne2 sparring x100

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    38. River: Sansa & Jon or Dany & Jon, both are icky, Sansa less icky but still related by blood.

      How is Jon + Sansa, who were raised as half-siblings, “less icky” than Jon + Dany, who never knew each other until recently? I totally don’t buy that technicalities of blood relation make incest creepier than an actual childhood relationship.

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    39. Ten Bears: Arya + Dany = BFF.

      Despite Arya’s professed admiration for Queen Nymeria and Aegon the Conqueror’s sisters, I’m very dubious about this. I think that, once Arya and Jon are reunited, she is going to be extremely protective of him and suspicious of anyone she thinks might be using him. Arya being the one to kill Dany is not out of the question IMO.

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    40. Sue the Fury,

      If we’re talking about the same article, from what I could see Hibberd says quite the opposite: “The new footage buried amid a lot of shots of season 7 — a shot of Jon Snow (Kit Harington) embracing Sansa Stark (Sophie Turner). Some are mistaking this for old footage too (their Castle Black reunion), but it’s actually the two reuniting at Winterfell in the final season.”

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    41. I don’t see Sansa staring daggers at anyone, or even staring at anyone specific at all. It looks like she’s looking off into the distance while hugging Jon, thinking about what a mess his return is going to cause in the North. Either that or she knows the Wall has fallen and Jon doesn’t know yet.

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    42. Firannion: How is Jon + Sansa, who were raised as half-siblings,“less icky” than Jon + Dany, who never knew each other until recently? I totally don’t buy that technicalities of blood relation make incest creepier than an actual childhood relationship.

      Jon and Sansa’s relationship growing up, they were never as close as Jon and Arya until recently but yeah it’s equally icky. Interesting to point out that GRRM’s pitch for ASOIAF originally had a Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle, so it might happen since GRRM is open to the idea of love triangles. Question is, will it be Dany-Jon-Sansa or Jon-Dany-Tyrion or Jon-Sansa-Tyrion? Not really a fan of love triangles, add to that the incest angle but its realistic that one of these combinations might still happen.

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    43. Firannion,

      I agree that there is no Sansa/Jon thing going on at all. Some people just see what they want to see.

      However, I have a hard time seeing Bran dying so early in season 8, especially before the AOTD reaches Winterfell.

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    44. Sean C.: Tyrion may well be in the scene, but that’s quite unlikely to be who she’s staring daggers at, since the show has been very insistent about making their relationship chummy.

      What daggers? I agree with Mr. Derp. Sansa may not even be looking at anybody in particular – just thinking.

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    45. It’s been amusing reading the assumptions on various other sites that people are making about Sansa based on a few seconds of clip. Assuming…that this is from when Jon arrives back home, Sansa has every right to be reserved. As far as we know from Season 7, Jon sent a raven with a short message saying he’s on his way home with Dany. All Sansa knows about the Targs is that that Dany’s father had her uncle and grandfather killed and her brother kidnapped and raped her Aunt and that resulted in her aunt death. I’d hardly expect her to be ‘excited’ about meeting another Targaryen. Not to mention Tyrion is with them and while he may have been nice to her – he’s still a Lannister – the family that beheaded her father and arranged for the murder of her mother and older brother. Night King or not, I’d not be welcoming Dany with open arms either. I’m sure once she knows the truth, things will change.

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    46. Firannion,

      Isn’t “sourpuss look” Sansa’s default setting?
      It’d be hard to glean whether she’s angry, concerned, afraid, etc. just from a quick glimpse of her facial expression.

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    47. River,

      As I pointed out above, it is Dany, Jon and Jorah. We know Jon and Dany are in love and we have been told through the entire series that Jorah is IN love with Dany. To me that’s the only love triangle that makes sense at this point.

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    48. Firannion,

      She’s totally looking at Daenerys (and co), dude.

      You can argue that people may be reading too much into it.

      But it’s a pretty reasonable assumption.

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    49. Ten Bears:
      Firannion,

      Isn’t “sourpuss look” Sansa’s default setting?
      It’d be hard to glean whether she’s angry, concerned, afraid, etc. just from a quick glimpse of her facial expression.

      QFT 😀
      Sophie only has like two expressions

      There really is nothing in books or show that indicates any romantic love interest between J & S. It also makes little sense for the story. That is why Jonsa fans are ridiculed so much.

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    50. -Smiles and laughs- You KNOW it’s the offseason when we’re all staring/squinting at the computer screen trying to overanalyze facial expressions and subtle eye movements.

      Speaking of over-analyzing, it looks to me like Sansa’s eyes aren’t focusing on anything specific. She looks to be just kind of looking off into the distance to me. Perhaps she’s looking at other people arriving, but I don’t think so. It just looks like a moment of “Oh geez Jon, did you really have to bring the dragon queen to Winterfell and bend the knee? How the hell are we supposed to get out of this mess?”

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    51. Ten Bears,

      She’s probably angry about Jon’s bringing home all these guests, and thinking, “How on earth are we going to feed all these people? And their armies? And the dragons?” 🙂

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    52. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Firannion,

      She’s totally looking at Daenerys (and co), dude.

      You can argue that people may be reading too much into it.

      But it’s a pretty reasonable assumption.

      Well, we shall see what we shall see. You may be right. But for my money, if Daenerys & Co. walked in right behind Jon, Sansa’s eyes would likely go first to the one with whom she has intense personal history and, arguably, unfinished business.

      After experiencing how truly horrible a marriage can be with Ramsay, she might even have entertained some second thoughts about Tyrion by now. At least he treated her with consistent kindness, which in a strategic medieval aristocratic marriage might be deemed rather a luxury. I’m not ruling out their reuniting – on Sansa’s own terms.

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    53. Firannion: Despite Arya’s professed admiration for Queen Nymeria and Aegon the Conqueror’s sisters, I’m very dubious about this. I think that, once Arya and Jon are reunited, she is going to be extremely protective of him and suspicious of anyone she thinks might be using him. Arya being the one to kill Dany is not out of the question IMO.

      Bran should and would be able to explain everything, he did it with Littlefinger while the sisters were “fighting” and he’ll do it again, unless the Night King gets to him first and takes Bran away on a magical/deadly dragon ride on Viserion. Also someone pointed it out earlier that aside from Bran, the Hound could talk to Arya about Dany as he was saved in that frozen lake with Jon and others.

      Also Arya has been rational all throughout the show, I doubt she’s about to go on a killing spree all of a sudden without reason. Arya is pretty much right about everyone else on the show so if she does kill Dany (while highly unlikely), it must be for something truly heinous.

      But all of their supposed tension would be resolved quite easily by Bran. Can’t wait to see Arya, Dany, Sansa, Brienne working together then we’ll have Gendry, Jon, Tyrion, Jaime, and the Hound working together as well.

      Brienne would be able to vouch for Jaime to the Starks, and Tyrion to Dany. In that dragon pit meeting, Dany and Jaime seemed fine. She didn’t even bring up the fact that he tried to kill her 🙂

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    54. Firannion: Well, we shall see what we shall see. You may be right. But for my money, if Daenerys & Co. walked in right behind Jon, Sansa’s eyes would likely go first to the one with whom she has intense personal history and, arguably, unfinished business.

      That would be… Sandor.

      #You’reAlrightLittleBird 🕊

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    55. Ten Bears: I know. The way I see it, Sansa’s story was essentially concluded in S6-S7, i.e., defeat LF and become Lady of WF.

      Arya’s Act III has not yet begun. They had her treading water throughout S7.

      S8 should be Aryacentric.

      Sansa’s arc is far from concluded. She still needs to prove herself as a ruler of WF and confront Cersei. If LF was to be the ending to one of the main character’s arcs, it’ll be given far more effort.

      Also I believe we need to see Sansa and Arya working together properly, since D&D said they would make a great unit.

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    56. Firannion,

      Do you really believe that Sansa’s eyes would be drawn to a man she already knows, rather than the beautiful, mysterious queen who’s recently taken her kingdom and possibly the affections of her beloved brother too?

      Do you think she’s totally devoid of curiosity?

      I really don’t understand this reluctance to believe that Sansa’s eyes would be drawn to Daenerys. Do people really believe that they’re going to have an unnatural, tensionless, intrigue-free first meeting?

      Maybe she’s not looking at Daenerys. But it really is the most logical assumption at this point.

      I don’t think Sansa and Tyrion will be getting back together either. It’s not politically prudent for her at this stage. And despite their amicable relationship, I can’t envision any great affection between them.

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    57. The Wolves of Winter,

      Totally forgot about Jorah, my bad! I have a bad feeling about Jorah he might do something hero-like that would get him killed. Sir friendzone, read on reddit that he might be Dany’s Nissa Nissa, I hope not. I don’t want anyone to be the Nissa Nissa to someone 🙁

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    58. I agree that Sansa looks just mildly pissed off in general, though we already know she’s upset he’s bringing Dany home. That won’t be a surprise. I actually can’t wait to see New Sansa and Dany interact.

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    59. Lunaselene:
      Ten Bears,

      She’s probably angry about Jon’s bringing home all these guests, and thinking, “How on earth are we going to feed all these people? And their armies? And the dragons?”

      I just hope this means a very early in the season Winterfell reunion with Arya. Arya (with Sandor’s training) now can see the way “things are”, so she will give excellent advice if Jon wants to hear it. I just re-watched S3-E5 when Arya tells Gendry that she can be his family, and he says, “you would be my lady”… I am looking forward to the {{Gendry – Arya}} Winterfell reunion as well. Gendry came back with them after the beyond the wall nightmare didn’t he? So he should be in the party traveling to Winterfell? Gendry didn’t listen to Arya when he joined the BWB…he thought they had honor…but hopefully Jon will take her advice. I think Arya’s advice will be much better than Sansa’s. Arya would not keep secrets from Jon like Sansa did last season. She did save the day with the knights of the vale, but she certainly sacrificed thousands of wildlings and northmen since she didn’t let Jon in on the plan.

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    60. firstone: I think there will be conflict for a couple episodes and then when the Night Kings Army attacks Winterfell everybody realizes they need to fight together to defeat the White Walkers

      This is in essence what my thoughts have been. While it can be expected that we’ll get more of the grandstanding and complaining about this person and that person, it all needs to be resolved rather quickly. The shit is going to hit the fan! At that point one would think they’d all be happy to have more numbers and dragons on their side. We’re not in an early season when they can afford to spend several episodes slowly building storylines and adding in tons of side arcs as filler. We may not like hearing the words “push” and “rush,” but they have been used to describe the pace of the final season. There are a lot of big, climactic pieces to get in that will bury personal qualms and jealousies that aren’t resolved.

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    61. Clob,

      For sure. To me, the Winterfell plot will be resolved in one of the following two ways:

      1) The North refuses to go along with a Stark/Targaryen alliance until Sansa/Arya/Bran convince them that this is the only way to defeat their common enemies. The arrival of the AOTD on their doorstep is the icing on the cake and they all fight together, but will most likely lose anyway.

      2) The North refuses to go along with a Stark/Targaryen alliance. Sansa/Arya/Bran try to convince the Northern leaders that this is the only way to defeat their common enemies, but they still refuse, much like they did before the BOTB. The Northern leaders all return to their respective strongholds to fight off the AOTD alone, which will undoubtedly result in total losses, and the North falls to the AOTD.

      Either way, I think it all results in the same conclusion. The North falls, whatever survivors there are will have to flee South to KL with the AOTD close behind.

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    62. River: Interesting to point out that GRRM’s pitch for ASOIAF originally had a Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle, so it might happen since GRRM is open to the idea of love triangles.

      Yeah this is what I was thinking as well. In the outline the R+L=J reveal gave permission for Jon to be with his sister. R+L=J does the opposite for Jon and Dany – accidental incest is almost never a cause for people to “reaffirm their love” in literature. Oedipus didn’t shrug at the news and start making out with Jocasta again. Plus its not just “regular incest” – it’s Targaryen incest which is even worse, because it’s blood purity for the sake of magical nuclear weapons.

      Of all the scenes they could have chosen, it’s another hug – seems like a shipper tease. They also used the Jon/Sansa reunion hug for Sky Atlantic promotional materials. I wonder why this keeps coming up. We don’t need to know that “Jon has platonic love for his sister” – scenes like that serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever, unless it’s building toward something.

      Or, if there is nothing there, at least a fight over which family Jon chooses. Sansa is giving a dagger eyes “back off” look and I’m getting she-wolf vibes. Sophie said a “passionate fight” is coming for her in S8. And a lot of cast and crew interviews have said the ending would be divisive. I like Bauer’s comment that it’s “brave” – which is interesting too.

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    63. BeardedOnion,

      “Also I believe we need to see Sansa and Arya working together properly, since D&D said they would make a great unit.”
      ———-

      Yes. I agree with you there. I’m looking forward to the dynamic duo working in tandem – to erase the bitter aftertaste of the PsychoArya vs. FranticSansa “drama” of S7e5-e6. I wouldn’t mind extended scenes of the sisters, similar to their battlements reconciliation scene at the end of S7s7.*

      * Sansa: “…You would have. You’re the strongest person I know.”
      Arya: “I believe that’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me.”
      Sansa: “Well, don’t get used to it. You’re still very strange and annoying.”

      I just loved that little exchange.

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    64. If Jon will be linked to anyone it will be Dany. It’s been foreshadowed rather heavily that he is getting Dany pregnant and once he finds out, he will want to get married to her simply so his child will not be born a bastard.

      I really don’t see Jon and Sansa together…at all, but who knows how it will all play out.

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    65. As far as Sansa knows – Dany’s father had her uncle and grandfather executed. Dany’s brother kidnapped and raped her aunt, which resulted in her death. Can’t blame her for not looking excited about seeing a Targ on her land. Not to mention Tyrion’s family had her father beheaded, her mother and brother killed, I wouldn’t want him on my property either – even if he was ‘nice’ to me. That doesn’t change the fact that he’s a Lannister and Sansa knows better than anyone else that blood is thicker than water.

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    66. Firannion: Despite Arya’s professed admiration for Queen Nymeria and Aegon the Conqueror’s sisters, I’m very dubious about this. I think that, once Arya and Jon are reunited, she is going to be extremely protective of him and suspicious of anyone she thinks might be using him. Arya being the one to kill Dany is not out of the question IMO.

      I’m actually with Ten Bears regarding Daenerys and Arya. I do assume that Arya will give her the stink-eye and be leery at first, but once she has a one-on-one with Jon and/or Daenerys herself I think she’ll become comfortable with her. Daenerys really isn’t one for lies as she pretty much says what she wants and believes, which Arya should be able to see in her when they speak. I suppose it is unlikely that Arya will have learned Valyrian even though it wasn’t shown or mentioned. I’m glad that will be possible when they eventually meet in the books because it will add a little connection between the two from the start.

      I really do wish my scenario of Arya meeting them on the Kingsroad incognito would happen. That way she could observe Daenerys in a manner that’s not “at the in-laws” to get a better point of view… while also eliminating one person needing lengthy conversation to convince.

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    67. Clob,

      “I really do wish my scenario of Arya meeting them on the Kingsroad incognito would happen. That way she could observe Daenerys in a manner that’s not “at the in-laws” to get a better point of view… while also eliminating one person needing lengthy conversation to convince.”
      ——-
      Yeah, I liked your scenario. You should re-post it if you have it saved somewhere.

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    68. Ramsay's 20th Good Man: Do you really believe that Sansa’s eyes would be drawn to a man she already knows, rather than the beautiful, mysterious queen who’s recently taken her kingdom and possibly the affections of her beloved brother too?

      Do you think she’s totally devoid of curiosity?

      I really don’t understand this reluctance to believe that Sansa’s eyes would be drawn to Daenerys. Do people really believe that they’re going to have an unnatural, tensionless, intrigue-free first meeting?

      Maybe she’s not looking at Daenerys. But it really is the most logical assumption at this point.

      Yes. Yes, I do. Though Ten Bears makes a fair point that Sansa’s attention may rivet to Sandor as well, presuming that he’s arriving simultaneously with Jon’s entourage (I don’t think we saw him on the ship to White Harbor). And I don’t see why it would imply that she is “devoid of curiosity” that her first concern would be with the people who are intimately part of her own past – especially with men: Not only is Sansa self-centered, but she also has long been one to look primarily to men for personal affirmation.

      Granted, my own logic here may be influenced by the fact that I’ve never felt much engaged with the arc of the “beautiful, mysterious queen.” My patience with Her Entitledness is very limited, and I don’t think Dany needs to be the focal point of every single scene that she’s in. The relationships among the Northern squad and the Kings Landingers are of much greater narrative interest to me.

      Also, Sansa has yet to experience being a queen, so I don’t think that Dany “taking her kingdom” is likely to be that much of an issue. It seems more likely to me that the Stark girls will simply be wary of Dany’s sudden influence over Jon, for Jon’s own sake. Someone higher up the thread pointed out that Bran will be able to download the facts for them, but I don’t see Bran having any particular reason to favor Dany’s involvement, beyond the obvious usefulness of her WMDs in defeating the Army of the Dead.

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    69. Looks like Sansa is looking to Daenerys there!! She is definetely unpleasant! I think Dany will behave better to Sansa than Sansa behave to her. Well, at least that’s for sure for the beginning. I mean, Dany is the one who has to gain their trust after all.

      It’s really great to see new footage. Things will be faster after this, I believe.

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    70. River,

      I don’t know, I think Jorah will do something bad. I think because of the grayscale and that he got cured, that he does not accept his Lord Friendzone status anymore. He wants more, always has.

      In season 2 Quaithe asks him if he will betray Dany again. He says never at the time, but he doesn’t know what will happen later on. I’m thinking that wasn’t just a question but also foreshadowing. And given the patterns on her clothing she is a Red Priestess, so she might know more.

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    71. Mr Derp:
      If Jon will be linked to anyone it will be Dany.It’s been foreshadowed rather heavily that he is getting Dany pregnant and once he finds out, he will want to get married to her simply so his child will not be born a bastard.

      I really don’t see Jon and Sansa together…at all, but who knows how it will all play out.

      Although it would be richly ironic if Daenerys bears Jon’s bastard – the very thing he was so keen to avoid. And even more ironic if eventually Jon and Sansa did marry (I’m unconvinced on this one but just considering the possibility), and she raised his actual bastard with the love and care that Cat had never provided to him growing up.

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    72. Firannion: It seems more likely to me that the Stark girls will simply be wary of Dany’s sudden influence over Jon, for Jon’s own sake. Someone higher up the thread pointed out that Bran will be able to download the facts for them, but I don’t see Bran having any particular reason to favor Dany’s involvement, beyond the obvious usefulness of her WMDs in defeating the Army of the Dead.

      This is essentially how I see it.

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    73. trarecar:
      I agree that Sansa looks just mildly pissed off in general, though we already knowshe’s upset he’s bringing Dany home. That won’t be a surprise. I actually can’t wait to see New Sansa and Dany interact.

      Sansa is ready to face anyone, she’s a grown woman who has been through it. She bout to strut, be sassing Jon and ready for a Queen-Off with Dany haha seriously I’m so excited as well, we didn’t get any Dany-Margaery interaction so this will do, also Dany and Arya, two of my favorite characters together in one scene that’s mind blown. Better Dany, Arya, Brienne, three of my fav characters then that’s all minds in the known universe blown into smithereens.

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    74. Hmm… I find it ‘funny’ when people condemn J & D because it’s incest between nephew & aunt, yet champion a pairing between Jon and Sansa or Arya. Cousins is hardly less incestuous, but beyond that, it’s between individuals that were raised as siblings and see each other as such. Do people really believe Jon learning that Lyanna is his mother and Ned not his father will make him suddenly see either of them as something other than “sister”? If this was a real situation do you honestly think that’s less gross than being with someone you never knew that ends up having a similar family tie? So Jon has such an issue being with Daenerys because she’s related he’s going to dump her and get together with another family member, intentionally this time?? I get wanting to ship characters, but sometimes the rationale is irrational.

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    75. Clob:
      Hmm…I find it ‘funny’ when people condemn J & D because it’s incest between nephew & aunt, yet champion a pairing between Jon and Sansa or Arya.Cousins is hardly less incestuous

      Actually, the coefficient of relationship for first-cousins (12.5%) is exactly half that of aunt-nephew (25%). And in Jon & Dany’s case it would be higher than 25% (I’m not really sure what) because of how inbred she and Rhaegar are/were.

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    76. Jack Bauer 24,

      Looks about the same to me, but who knows. That Northern climate can do terrible things with such lustrous, dark manes. Perhaps he just needs a good shampoo and conditioning? Having your hair slicked back for that long can flatten it out quite a bit.

      I can see it now. Kit Harington, new spokesman for Cover Girl. Easy, breezy, beautiful!

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    77. Mr Derp,

      I think the Northern Lords won’t trust Daenerys Targaryen & Aegon Targaryen so they will retreat back to their castles just like they did for the BotB…

      Daenerys 2 Dragons The Unsullied Dothrakis Knights of the Vale are enough to defeat and destroy the Night King and his army. The battle destroys Winterell but the Night King and his army dies in the North. I don’t see how dead zombies could defeat so many of the best fighters of Planetos.

      After seeing that Daenerys and her army saved the North by destroying the Night King and his army… The Northern Houses join Jon & Daenerys army to march south to Fight the Golden Company and take King Landings which is still covered in Snow. I don’t think the Night King makes it to Kings Landing.

      if the Night King makes it to Kings Landing that would mean that the White Walkers destroyed Jon or Daenerys army they wouldn’t make it past the third or 4th season 8 episode. If Jon and Daenerys have no army there is no way they could defeat the Golden Company and take Kings Landing. Cersie or the Night King would sit on the Iron Throne.

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    78. Clob: I get wanting to ship characters, but sometimes the rationale is irrational.

      As someone said upthread, people see what they want to see (and ignore what they don’t want to see). I’m not “shipping” Jon & Sansa, but I don’t think it’s as unthinkable as you’re making it out to be. Don’t get me wrong, I think the sibling bond between Jon and Arya would render that pairing gross. But if JonxSansa is supposed to be unthinkable why did GRRM take such pains to make it very clear that Jon and Sansa didn’t have a typical sibling relationship growing up?

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    79. The Wolves of Winter,

      I hope not, I mean a man has been given a second chance, there will not be a third 🙂 How would he betray Dany? by way of Jon? hope not they have a good relationship. Now if Daario comes back into the picture that would complicate the triangle, does that make it a quadrangle? Jon-Dany-Jorah-Daario.

      Also Tyrion in S7 was showing some early signs of unrequited love for Dany, what is up with him lurking near Dany’s room and earlier he had this big plea to Dany “if you die, we’re all lost, everyone, everything.” He might be feeling something for Dany. The original pitch had Jon-Arya-Tyrion so what if its now Jon-Dany-Tyrion?

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    80. Gwidhiel: Actually, the coefficient of relationship for first-cousins (12.5%) is exactly half that of aunt-nephew (25%). And in Jon & Dany’s case it would be higher than 25% (I’m not really sure what) because of how inbred she and Rhaegar are/were.

      … and what I’m saying is that the “grossness percent” in this case is higher and makes it worse between Jon and his sister-cousins since they were raised as siblings and known each other as such their entire lives.

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    81. firstone: I don’t see how dead zombies could defeat so many of the best fighters of Planetos.

      I don’t recall the statistics, but I believe the best fighters in Planetos are seriously outnumbered.

      firstone: if the Night King makes it to Kings Landing that would mean that the White Walkers destroyed Jon or Daenerys army they wouldn’t make it past the third or 4th season 8 episode. If Jon and Daenerys have no army there is no way they could defeat the Golden Company and take Kings Landing. Cersie or the Night King would sit on the Iron Throne.

      I fully believe that the “good guys” will lose the war, but some kind of self sacrifice will defeat the Night King and the AOTD in the end (perhaps Dany or Jon taking a knife to the heart). So I fully expect the AOTD and the NK to make it to KL where the final showdown will commence.

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    82. Clob: … and what I’m saying is that the “grossness percent” in this case is higher and makes it worse between Jon and his sister-cousins since they were raised as siblings and known each other as such their entire lives.

      So this is a scenario that a cognitive psych professor I know has been using for years in his undergrad lectures (although not with GoT characters) to illustrate how the rational basis of the incest taboo that most societies have can be irrational in some cases: e.g. “Would you object to a sexual relationship between an adult brother-sister pair, who are both cognitively intact and fully consenting, if the brother has had a vasectomy and the sister has had her ovaries removed? Why or why not? Would you object to a sexual relationship between two adult brothers who are both cognitively intact and fully consenting? Why or why not?”

      I get that those scenarios are a little bit different than pairing two cousins who grew up believing they were siblings, and the attendant emotions we might expect. But the central point is that the taboo is rooted in the problem of inbreeding, and that the disgust reaction to incest is irrational when reproduction is taken out of the equation. That doesn’t mean that people would just flip a switch and get over their long-established sibling emotions (and the corresponding disgust they’d feel about incest) when it’s revealed that they’re not, in fact, siblings. But that brings us back to why both the books and the show took such pains to make it clear that, unlike his relationship with Arya, Jon’s childhood relationship with Sansa wasn’t close.

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    83. Clob,

      I say why not go Full Weirdness and have Jon & Dany’s inbred incest bastard come out as a half-human, half-dragon hybrid – kind of like they did with Ripley in “Alien Resurrection.”

      If the description of Dany’s stillborn baby in S1 was accurate, it’s not as if this would come out of the blue.

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    84. River,
      Such as how Gendry is actually Cersei’s (and Robert’s) son and how he’s going to make his claim as such and be king of the 7k at the end?
      It’s fun and all to make up theories pulling from the smallest of details or lines of dialogue. I’d say that one is a bit more of a stretch than a lot simply because he’s an even smaller presence in the books. While I do think Arya will run into him again in the books (probably at the Inn at the Crossroads), I’m not convinced D&D didn’t bring him back mostly because of how much of a fan favorite he was. There were reasonable reasons to do so that weren’t so grand. If only they would have had him grow his hair back out and made him less of a dweeb in doing so… 🙂

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    85. Mr Derp,

      Maybe the “self-sacrifice” will be voluntarily undergoing the Benjen shard-to-the-heart operation. That’s something Jon would do to “guard the realms of men.”

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    86. Gwidhiel,

      Well…. speaking from personal experience and take this for what you will, even with the sibling I’m not close with at all, I could never ever, ever stop seeing her as my sister. Even if it came out that she adopted, that wouldn’t change anything. As distant as we are, she’s still my sister. I grew up with her as my sister. And based on the show and the books, there’s no indication of romantic feeling between Jon and Sansa. Regardless of their distant relationship, Jon sees Sansa as his sister and he loves her as such – but as one of his siblings, as part of the pack, as a family member who’s been part of her life from the day she was born. And that’s a mentality I can’t personally even fathom ever overcoming.

      But really, and realistically, not all siblings are close. Many aren’t. But that doesn’t mean they don’t see each other as such.

      If Sansa and Jon were raised apart and not as half-siblings, okay, but they were. That’s why it’s an issue for me and that’s why their lack of closeness growing up doesn’t negate anything.

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    87. Gwidhiel: But that brings us back to why both the books and the show took such pains to make it clear that, unlike his relationship with Arya, Jon’s childhood relationship with Sansa wasn’t close.

      George answers that here

      Arya was one of the first characters created. Sansa came about as a total opposite b/c too many of the Stark family members were getting along and familes aren’t like that. Thus, Sansa was created; he ended by saying they have deep issues to work out.
      http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Keplers_and_Codys_Signings_California_November_9_and_11

      and

      He also told us why he created Sansa in the first place, because there is always someone in a family that the others don’t get along with.
      https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/87941-book-spoilers-discussing-sansa-ii/&page=18#comment-4468398

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    88. There’s been no hint that Sansa and Jon have any physical attraction to each other. We haven’t seen anything of the sort. There’s also been no foreshadowing or specific reason to lead one to believe that Jon and Sansa will become a thing in season 8. Where is this even coming from?

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    89. Gwidhiel: But that brings us back to why both the books and the show took such pains to make it clear that, unlike his relationship with Arya, Jon’s childhood relationship with Sansa wasn’t close.

      In this particular case that makes me less sold on the possibility. Sansa’s dislike of Jon was like her mother’s and not stemming from some hidden sexual infatuation that could take root if given the opportunity. Growth and experience now has allowed them to see past the childish differences and respect and love each other as siblings. As lovers? No!

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    90. Adrianacandle: That’s why it’s an issue for me

      That’s the whole point – it’s an issue for you. You find it hard to imagine yourself in that situation behaving in any way other than the way that you would behave. But you didn’t grow up in a huge castle with pretty rigid gender roles and social hierarchies in place. Sansa obeyed her mother and her Septa and spent most of her time indoors, sewing, reading, and singing. Jon was largely outside all day hunting, training in the yard, doing boy things. That split is quite different than growing up in a modern Western home with a sibling whom you might not be close to but with whom you share a bathroom, living room, and sit at the same small family dinner table several times a week, etc.

      And just to be clear, I’m not arguing for Jon x Sansa. I don’t feel that they’ve shown Sansa to have anything other than sisterly feelings for Jon and I’m doubtful that there’s time in S8 for a convincing romantic relationship between them. Plus, so many audience members loathe Sansa and would be very displeased with the pairing for that reason. But the arguments that the relationship is unthinkable or that the people suggesting it are irrational, don’t withstand the same logical scrutiny they claim to be applying.

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    91. Jay Targ,

      Yes, exactly. But not sure how you think that means that the Jon x Sansa pairing is impossible?

      And again – I’m not promoting it! But I don’t see where the certainty that it’s impossible is coming from.

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    92. Mr Derp:
      I don’t see Sansa staring daggers at anyone, or even staring at anyone specific at all.It looks like she’s looking off into the distance while hugging Jon, thinking about what a mess his return is going to cause in the North.Either that or she knows the Wall has fallen and Jon doesn’t know yet.

      Exactly what I was thinking as well. Like, “yeah it’s good to finally see you, but we’re all gonna face death (pun intended) sooner than you think”.

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    93. Mr Derp:
      Gwidhiel,

      You sure seem to be promoting it.

      Really? I’m pretty sure I just stated why I’m unconvinced that it’s going to happen. If this is where the show is going, they’ve made the selling that relationship harder than it would have otherwise been with their mangling of the Sansa character. In addition to needing to overcome people’s uneasiness about the apparent incest they’d also have to contend with the widespread Sansa hate, that’s on full, proud display in threads on this site. Seems like they’ve shot themselves in the foot if this is where they’re taking the story.

      But doubting it will happen because of how the show has handled Sansa is not the same as saying that the idea is ludicrous. It’s not.

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    94. Gwidhiel,

      Hmm, then Sansa would get someone “brave, gentle, and strong,” that she didn’t want, and she could also “hatch” something, that she said she wouldn’t do, too.

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    95. Well on the one hand, you say that you don’t buy into it, but on the other hand, you’re awfully argumentative with those who don’t subscribe to it, so it’s a rather confusing position that you’ve taken.

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    96. Gwidhiel: That’s the whole point – it’s an issue for you.

      Yes. That’s what I was hoping to get across when I said “personally” and “for me”. I’m only speaking for myself with the desire to include my viewpoint in this conversation as to why I think Jon and Sansa’s lack of childhood closeness does not negate them seeing each other as siblings.

      Yeah, growing up in Toronto, Canada during the 90s and early 00s is different from growing up in medieval Westeros, you’re absolutely right. Still – my sister and I didn’t share a lot – not a bathroom, not a bedroom, not activities, not a classroom. We didn’t even really have dinners together – only on special occasions because on a day-to-day basis, we all were doing our extracurriculars at meal times.

      I’m only speaking for myself. I’m not saying I’m the standard, I’m not telling people what to ship or what not to ship, I’m only saying why I myself have a problem with the “they weren’t close” argument and why overcoming that sibling mentality, close or not, is personally unfathomable for me.

      I like Sansa just fine. I have nothing against her. I mean, we all come to these stories with the context of our own experiences and I certainly share some of Sansa’s sibling rivalry traits toward another sister, which is part of the reason why I could understand her in the first book.

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    97. Mr Derp: I mean, we don’t know that Ser Pounce and Drogon won’t get together and have a child despite the fact that there’s no evidence to support it, so it’s still a possibility that we should all spend time debating, right?

      If that makes you happy – feel free.

      I’m perhaps more attuned to the facets of the incest taboo issue than most people are because I’m familiar with the scientific literature. It’s a rich area for exploring cognitive dissonance and the roots of the unexamined beliefs that people hold.

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    98. Gwidhiel:
      Jay Targ,

      Yes, exactly. But not sure how you think that means that the Jon x Sansa pairing is impossible?

      And again – I’m not promoting it! But I don’t see where the certainty that it’s impossible is coming from.

      Impossible? No. But it is highly unlikely. And it’s unlikely for far more reasons than the reasoning you gave Mr Derp.

      As Ten Bears often says, we’ve seen about 95% of the story, if that were the direction the show were going then D&D would have at least hinted at it. And I’m not sure that it being “unexpected” or “unpredictable” is a good argument. I can come up with any number of things that would be unpredictable. Again, not impossible, but unlikely at this stage.

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    99. Jay Targ:
      As Ten Bears often says, we’ve seen about 95% of the story, if that were the direction the show were going then D&D would have at least hinted at it.And I’m not sure that it being“unexpected” or “unpredictable” is a good argument.I can come up with any number of things that would be unpredictable.Again, not impossible, but unlikely at this stage.

      I agree with you, actually.

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    100. Well the reason why we’re talking about it, is because they chose to make the first scene of S8 a Jon/Sansa scene – which I’m quite shocked by. If they dont matter, then why even drop it into the hype machine?

      It doesn’t matter if general audiences will accept it or not. People’s relationships with their own siblings or their beliefs in the incest taboo also don’t matter. We also have no idea what’s going on in Jon’s head – this isn’t book material. All we can go on, is the writing, acting and framing of the scenes, and what they choose to focus on (again, this clip!)

      I think it’s more important that there is an in-universe idea that Targaryen incest is a very negative symbol – if Jon/Dany continue their relationship even after the parentage reveal, it sends the message that Jon/Dany are separate/above others, that blood purity is a good thing, that 300 years of incest can (and should?) be used to keep power, and that flaunting that exclusivity, is healthy.

      Obviously if it was so great the Targaryens wouldn’t have madness, infertility, and lizard babies as a “cost.”

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    101. firstone,

      Arya was suspicious of Sansa’s intentions because she had preconceived notions of who his sister was. What she remembered of Sansa was the girl who refused to support Arya’s account of what happened in her confrontation with Joffrey over Micah. She remembered the girl who was so enamored with the idea of being a princess that she was willing to go against family. Arya did not question Sansa’s motives out of thin air, there was history there. They did not like each other.

      Jon, on the other hand, was/is her favorite sibling. The show didn’t portray the strong Jon-Arya bond as extensively as the book does but I’m not sure there’s another relationship that is more loving than Jon-Arya’s relationship in the entire series. Arya may be wary of Daenerys, for various reasons, but I would be incredibly surprised if she ever doubted Jon’s character.

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    102. Clob,

      Yes that and more, reddit theories are so much fun to read! GoT fans both on that site and here are so creative. The fans are undoubtedly a big part of the series by now. The writers have been reading some of the comments on reddit and here, Sansa had a line in S7 when she was being confronted by Arya, “you didn’t win it back, Jon didn’t win it back, he lost the Battle of the Bastards.” She called it the BotB, I don’t recall anyone on the show – Davos, Ramsay, Jon?? ever calling the battle that, did they? The episode title itself I think was born on the internet. D&D were definitely reading comments online.

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    103. MMJ: Well the reason why we’re talking about it, is because they chose to make the first scene of S8 a Jon/Sansa scene – which I’m quite shocked by. If they dont matter, then why even drop it into the hype machine?

      To build hype? I don’t know about you, but seeing this scene has made me all the more excited to see Jon & Arya’s / Jon & Bran’s reunion. It also likely suggests that Dany and co arrive in Winterfell without actually showing it. Again creating excitement to see those new relationships form, and speculating about how they’ll react to each other.

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    104. Lightbringer,

      Agree Lightbringer, Sansa has history with Jon’s retinue ie Hound, Tyrion and Varys, if there. I would be surprised if this has anything to do with Jon at all. Or she could be thinking ‘how the hell am I going to feed this lot’😯

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    105. MMJ: Well the reason why we’re talking about it, is because they chose to make the first scene of S8 a Jon/Sansa scene – which I’m quite shocked by. If they dont matter, then why even drop it into the hype machine?

      What evidence is there that this is representing the first scene of season 8? Do you mean the first scene they are showing to us?

      They focused on Jon and Sansa reuniting and that somehow means they are going to be a couple? Why? Last off-season they showed a clip of Arya looking at Winterfell from a distance. It simply meant she was coming home. It didn’t mean that Arya and Winterfell would get married.

      Hype is exactly that…hype. Another word for it is exaggeration. I believe the “hype machine” will also tell you that Syrio Forel is still alive, everyone is a secret Targaryen, Varys is a merman, and Bran is the Night King. The hype machine is not to be trusted.

      MMJ: I think it’s more important that there is an in-universe idea that Targaryen incest is a very negative symbol – if Jon/Dany continue their relationship even after the parentage reveal, it sends the message that Jon/Dany are separate/above others, that blood purity is a good thing, that 300 years of incest can (and should?) be used to keep power, and that flaunting that exclusivity, is healthy.

      It’s important to show that Targaryen incest is bad, but apparently Stark incest is all good?

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    106. Mr Derp: It’s important to show that Targaryen incest is bad, but apparently Stark incest is all good?

      Yeah cousin incest IS fine; it’s not incest in this universe. And the Starks didn’t closely intermarry in each successive generation for the past 300 years to maintain connection to their magical wolves, so that they could keep control of the North, and separate themselves from the people they ruled over.

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    107. MMJ: Well the reason why we’re talking about it, is because they chose to make the first scene of S8 a Jon/Sansa scene – which I’m quite shocked by. If they dont matter, then why even drop it into the hype machine?

      In my opinion it was little more than nothing, certainly not a “scene.” We know D&D, they put as little as they can that can be considered spoilers even in their own trailers. For a two second snip for an HBO season teaser they obviously would give them even less. They gave them something that is essentially nothing. We’re able to assume he returns as expected to Winterfell where we know Sansa already is. Big deal. They’re not going to put something spoilery in the clip! They obviously would not spoil a Jon and Arya reunion in it. There are several other things that can be suggested that they would not show. Some people want everything to have a bigger, special meaning and that isn’t always true.

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    108. Jay Targ: To build hype?I don’t know about you, but seeing this scene has made me all the more excited to see Jon & Arya’s / Jon & Bran’s reunion.It also likely suggests that Dany and co arrive in Winterfell without actually showing it.Again creating excitement to see those new relationships form, and speculating about how they’ll react to each other.

      It’s gonna be like Big Brother, the drama that comes with living under one roof, big personalities clashing. Sansa pissed at Dany for leaving towels on the floor. Jorah hating that Jon and Dany are “bunking” together. Bran warging into Drogon to get a better look at the world outside of the “Big” house/winterfell.

      Seriously though episode 1 should just be about honoring all these reunions and first-time meet-ups, and just a little AoTD tease. I want the 1st episode to just be about these characters interacting and observing each other. Jon’s reunion with Arya and Bran alone should take up an entire episode 🙂

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    109. MMJ: Yeah cousin incest IS fine; it’s not incest in this universe.

      Hmm… maybe people that live in Alabama or Mississippi think boffing first cousins is all super and dandy, but where I’m from people certainly do not consider it “fine.”

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    110. Ten Bears,

      That’s why becoming the “younger more beautiful Queen” would add some story for season 8. And Winterfell becomes free for “can I have a holdfast” Arya 😉

      Btw, I don’t see romantic love in the fragment. But if Daenerys doesn’t survive, and the north still doesn’t like Targaryens, a political alliance between Jon and Sansa makes sense. Littlefinger said so last year, and Sansa arranging her own marriage would actually be a fitting conclusion for her story. Furthermore, in contrast to Jon or Daenerys she actually knows King’s Landing. Of course, the North accepting Targaryen rule because they save them from the WW is a real option as well.

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    111. Clob,

      Irrelevant. Cousin relationships/marriage are acceptable in this universe, see: Tywin Lannister, Robert Baratheon, Rickard Stark, Paxter Redwyne, Sweetrobin.

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    112. Put me in the “Sansa is focused on something specific” camp. You don’t look that sharp-gazed to stare off into the distance. I don’t think she has a problem with Tyrion being there, but she’s wary of anyone’s motives. Was Jon forced to bend the knee? If not, what’s going on? I can’t believe news of the Field of Fire hasn’t reached Winterfell, and Dany killing Sam’s dad and brother. Randall was a jerk, but the way Tyrion saw how their deaths could look to the rest of the kingdoms is right. Just more proof you can’t trust the daughter of the Mad King. Sophie has said this is Sansa’s first test on her own, with no Baelish there to offer counsel. So she’s feeling a bit exposed.

      Also lovely contrast to their first reunion hug.

      I think some of her fight for her family will be because Jon has his own identity crisis. We had all that lovely foreshadowing convo between him and Theon about being both.

      As for Jaime and Bran, I could see their meeting being all about Jaime coming full circle. No one else may ever know what happened that day (though I think Tyrion suspects).

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    113. So Peter is in that promo for two different roles. I’m like oh Tyrion…you’ve done something new with your hair. ..and you’ve shaved lol. In case anyone missed it, it’s for his role in My Dinner with Hervé.

      I love how Sansa is waiting for Jon with literal open arms! How sweet! I mean that in a platonic sibling way, not in a #jonsa way. Also she’s definitely giving side eye to his new Targaryen crew.

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    114. fdr,

      oh yeah sansa is definitely the younger more beautiful queen and as you said an alliance makes sense jon is a trueborn targ and sansa is a trueborn stark it will be rhaeagar and lyanna all over again except their marraige will bring the north and south together.thats ice and fire.the show will not end in a targ restoration

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    115. MMJ,

      I see nothing significant at all in their choosing to show a Jon-Sansa scene. I believe they’re showing it precisely because there’s nothing very important or spoiler-y about it (unlike a Jon-Arya or Jaime-Bran scene, for instance). They also probably chose it because it was one of those scenes that was easier to prepare/edit than the others. I think they’ll save the more dramatic/exciting clips of scenes for the months closer to the premiere of Season 8. Just because they show a Jon-Sansa scene on their promos certainly doesn’t mean Jon-Sansa is endgame; if they were, then I believe HBO would do the exact opposite and show fewer or none of their scenes in promos, teasers, etc., so that it wouldn’t be so obvious and would come as a surprise to most viewers. So while some of you may think this scene hints at an eventual Jon-Sansa pairing, it reinforces my belief that their relationship will be nothing but a brother-sister relationship and won’t be as important as the other relationships in the show (and I don’t mean only romantic relationships, but friendships/alliances as well). These more important relationships will most likely be kept secret until we actually see them on the show.

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    116. HBO: “Let’s put a snippet from Season 8 that doesn’t give anything away, and watch people speculate up to their necks about deeply meaningful theories until they’re blue in the face!”

      HBO today: ” Bwahahahaha!!!!!”

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    117. Clob: Some people want everything to have a bigger, special meaning and that isn’t always true.

      I don’t think that’s a good position to start from, because from now on we’d have to agree that the promos that don’t spoil anything (which is all of them), don’t matter. So, if there is no importance on what they decide to show us, then there’s no point in speculating on what they are emphasizing/misdirecting, going forward. And that’s hella boring.

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    118. MMJ: Irrelevant. Cousin relationships/marriage are acceptable in this universe

      It’s relevant to me when I was responding to you using “this universe,” as in our real world, and not using “their universe.” 😉

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    119. Lunaselene,

      You may be right! Even though I dont think Jon/Dany is endgame because of the message it sends about incest, purity, and power, I’m more of a realpolitik person. I am hoping for political and familial conflict, because it makes for good drama. This promo seems to tease that, so I’m happy.

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    120. There goes Jon again,
      causing such a ruckus with those soulful eyes 👀

      Gwidhiel: Although it would be richly ironic if Daenerys bears Jon’s bastard – the very thing he was so keen to avoid. And even more ironic if eventually Jon and Sansa did marry (I’m unconvinced on this one but just considering the possibility), and she raised his actual bastard with the love and care that Cat had never provided to him growing up.

      Wow! I never thought I’d ever so much as place a toe on the Jonsa ship but my god you’ve done it, I’m a Jonsa convert!😱😆

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    121. MMJ,
      As I implied, there’s a difference between quick clips for an HBO season promo and a trailer specifically made for Game of Thrones under their direction. Still, D&D typically put very little in the trailers and promo screenshots that spoil anything directly. For example, they specifically cut shots at Castle Black for S6 so that Sansa was not seen. Daenerys and the dragons over Meereen was one of the biggest elements of that season and it was a complete surprise because they showed nothing of that sequence. Obviously whatever they show in trailers with new shots is going to contain something somewhat spoilery, but they choose shots that give away as little as possible.

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    122. Clob,

      Well, who knows – the scene might be important. I don’t like Sansa’s look. It looks very similar to the one she gave to Littlefinger in Ep 408, when she was crying on the shoulder of that Vale lady and the whole scene gave me a similar wibe: Sansa is up to no good.

      Before S7 I said that Sansa wouldn’t betray Jon but as for S8 I’m not so sure: Dany undermines Sansa’s position in every possible way, so Sansa might do something to get rid of her (and Jon).

      On the other hand, when last we saw, Sansa’s look led nowhere: Littlefinger sold her to the Boltons. There is that parallel between Sansa and Cersei and just like Cersei Sansa may turn out to be not as smart as she thinks. So, even if she makes a move against Jon and/or Dany before the great war is over, she’ll hardly she cause any major damage (though I can imagine her seizing power after the war).

      And one way or another, there will be a lot of tension between Sansa and Dany who may get angry ad do something impulsive because of that.

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    123. is this true? the only footage of S8-Jon is with a man-bun like in season what? and is it true that all of us close the eyes and don’t look anywhere when we meet and hug a person we’ve been missing for a while?

      i just want to say that this little bit of Jon and Sansa isn’t worth anything when it comes to predictions. ok, maybe it is worth some thoughts about the Stark family bonds. but it is surely not pointing towards another love triangle or stuff like that. simply because this show is not about “who will bang the dragon queen and who will bang what’s left”, and if it turns out to be about that, then f*ck it!

      says house chickenfire after seven seasons of addiction, so it’s true.

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    124. River,

      Sansa had a line in S7 when she was being confronted by Arya, “you didn’t win it back, Jon didn’t win it back, he lost the Battle of the Bastards.” She called it the BotB, I don’t recall anyone on the show – Davos, Ramsay, Jon?? ever calling the battle that, did they? The episode title itself I think was born on the internet. D&D were definitely reading comments online.”
      ——–
      Yes they did. HPNN (Hot Pie News Network) in S7e2 – paraphrasing:

      HP: “I thought you’d be headed to Winterfell.”
      Arya: “Why would I go there? The Boltons have it.”
      HP: “No. The Boltons are dead.”
      Arya: “What?”
      HP: “Jon Snow cane down from Castle Black with a Wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards. He’s King in the North now.”

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    125. Lundy:
      I don’t recall Jaime getting smacked in the face with a big stick.Was that in Season 7 or is it new?

      Looks to me like it was from Season 7 episode 4.

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    126. Pigeon:
      HBO: “Let’s put a snippet from Season 8 that doesn’t give anything away, and watch people speculate up to their necks about deeply meaningful theories until they’re blue in the face!”

      HBO today: ” Bwahahahaha!!!!!”

      Exactly. Just pull the strings and watch the people dance for your amusement!

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    127. Clob,

      “They’re not going to put something spoilery in the clip! They obviously would not spoil a Jon and Arya reunion in it.”
      ————-
      Right! And they’d better not spoil that. Nor do I want to know whose blood is splashed all over Arya’s sneakers before I watch her fillet him or her in S8.

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    128. It’s significant if it foreshadows Sansa’s betrayal, but if its foreshadowing Sansa vs. Dany, or that Jon and Sansa will be an important couple, whether platonically or not, it has no significance? 🤨

      death by chickenfire: “who will bang the dragon queen and who will bang what’s left”, and if it turns out to be about that, then f*ck it!

      that was my reaction to Alan Taylor, when he said Jon and Dany are “the point” of 10k pages, 80+ tv hours or whatever – F. That. However, there isn’t a single romance in the series that hasn’t been “love triangled,” so I think it’s to be expected because it is a writing device to introduce tension. But its more than just who bangs who – a dilemma over the heart could set up another “Aemon’s choice” that Jon has to make.

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    129. Lundy:
      I don’t recall Jaime getting smacked in the face with a big stick.Was that in Season 7 or is it new?

      Did the big stick represent reality? *whack!!!!* 😉

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    130. Ten Bears: I say why not go Full Weirdness and have Jon & Dany’s inbred incest bastard come out as a half-human, half-dragon hybrid – kind of like they did with Ripley in “Alien Resurrection.”

      I forgot I was going to reply to this…
      I’m up for that! It would line up well with my (joke) ending of Jon and Daenerys transforming into dragons and flying away at the end. 😛

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    131. Best headline of the year. For a minute there, I almost forget about the oppressive August heat and humidity (which I’m sure Westeros would only too gladly trade their freezing winter for)!

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    132. Ten Bears: And they’d better not spoil that.

      There would be riots. And it wouldn’t even really be a spoiler, per se. I hope Arya will meet Jon somewhere en route to Winterfell, maybe even in the opening scene of S8, so that that reunion will be separated from the hubbub of the entourage’s arrival at Winterfell. Perhaps that’s why they chose that little clip of Jon and Sansa reuniting – as Sansa told Arya, for all that Jon was happy to see Sansa, “when he sees you his heart will probably stop.” I am quite excited about the reunions to come.

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    133. MMJ: that was my reaction to Alan Taylor, when he said Jon and Dany are “the point” of 10k pages, 80+ tv hours or whatever – F. That.

      So you don’t believe that Jon and Daenerys are the two most main and important characters in ASoIaF? Huh. That became my perspective pretty early while I was reading the books. That was so much my feeling that before the show even started I began believing that the book series title was a poetic method of writing “The Story of Jon and Daenerys.” That hasn’t changed while watching the show, especially with a director saying such things and dialogue within the show specifically referring to them as “Ice and Fire.”

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    134. Lundy:
      I don’t recall Jaime getting smacked in the face with a big stick.Was that in Season 7 or is it new?

      Brienne gave him a few good whacks on that bridge, Bronn smacked him good during training, and I’m sure Cersei slapped him around plenty of times in the boudoir. 😉

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    135. Firannion,

      I agree with you 100%. Also, the taboos are different in Westeros, even aside from the Targaryen proclivity for marrying siblings. Aunt/nephew, uncle/niece and first cousin marriages are not a big deal.

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    136. Clob,

      Especially since Melisandre in the freaking show actually refers to them as Ice and Fire. If anyone’s still denying that Jon and Dany are the two most important characters to the story at this point then…I mean….damn. What more evidence does one need?

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    137. Jay Targ:
      Finally! This is probably the most non-spoilerly thing they could’ve showed us. This or a shot of Cersei in KL.

      But I really hope they’re not doing the whole “will Sansa betray Jon” thing again.

      I think Sansa is the Stark version of TQOT, she’ll protect her pack, that includes Jon.
      I think it be a normal thing to distrust not only Danny, but anyone coming from the south.
      She had to hold the North and Vale alliance together, and now she’s put between the alliance and Danny and her Dragons, she’s right, Jon isn’t making it easy for her.

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    138. Danny,

      That is a very good explanation why Arya acted the way she did toward Sansa in season 7… I didn’t think about looking all the way back to season 1 but your point makes a lot of sense! The story is tied together like a divine jigsaw puzzle. Good info!!!

      Regarding the hot topic…
      I think Sansa and the Hound have a better chance of hooking up than Sansa and Jon.

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    139. Mr Derp:
      Clob,

      Especially since Melisandre in the freaking show actually refers to them as Ice and Fire.If anyone’s still denying that Jon and Dany are the two most important characters to the story at this point then…I mean….damn.What more evidence does one need?

      I agree that they are the most important characters, particularly in the show. I just don’t see that it follows that they must move forward in unity.

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    140. Sean C.:
      Not exactly a big leap, but I imagine this is Jon and co. riding into Winterfell and Sansa staring past Jon to look at Daenerys and/or various other strangers in her entourage.

      And probably thinking : We don’t have enough food.

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    141. Mr Derp,

      Agree 100%. She’ll be pregnant by the time they get off the boat. They will have been going at it for days or weeks by then.

      I’m wondering if Dany will arrive by Drogon rather than horseback. It seems logical for her to make an entrance that way. Also, based on what Jorah told her before the boat ride about enemies in the North, she would not want to take the risk of riding by horse from White Harbor to Winterfell. Nor would she want to let her dragons fly without direction by themselves before the first introduction at Winterfell. Maybe that’s what Sansa is staring at over Jon’s shoulder: Dany on top of Drogon.

      Yes, he’ll marry her. Jon is not a one night stand kind of guy, she’s a Queen, and he loves her. I doubt she’ll know or tell him she’s pregnant before they arrive in Winterfell, however. They’ll save that bit of drama for after Jon finds out who he is.

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    142. Mr Derp,

      The person whose initial assertion Clob was responding to (MMJ) never said they weren’t the most important characters in the show.

      They were saying that they didn’t believe Jon and Dany getting together was the point of the novels.

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    143. Mr Derp: What more evidence does one need?

      Probably a more reliable source than Melisandre for a start.

      Which means its probably a good idea to think the opposite of whatever she says.

      I’m going with the author’s words: “The things going on north of the Wall, and then there is Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons — are of course the ice and fire of the title, A Song of Ice and Fire.” So Ice=Others, Dany=Fire. Two forces that can destroy the world and the human race, a la Robert Frost.

      And yeah I was on the Jon/Dany train on like my first read in 2003…but not on the second or third because the foreshadowing is quite superficial when I started to dig deeper into the histories and understood Sansa’s arc. For example, Jon and Sansa have a parallel that Jon/Dany could never share. Both had to hide their identity from the public because people wanted to kill them, and as a result, both of their fake fathers made them their bastards. That’s hyper-specific.

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    144. Giocrypt,

      YAAASSSS! Jon could be saying something to Sansa. Something that makes her look up and take notice. There are several possibilities. I can’t tell if she is staring daggers or just looking concern because a whole army is marching into her home. Either way, I don’t care…they’re hugging!!!!

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    145. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: They were saying that they didn’t believe Jon and Dany getting together was the point of the novels.

      Yup. Some folks think everything was leading up to Jon and Dany having sex to create more inbred Targaryens and I’m just like, completely skeptical of that idea. Of course they’re important characters that will affect the plot – but Dany’s nephew giving her an orgasm and magically solving her fertility problem because he has Targ sperm that can only work with her Targ egg most definitely is not the point.

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    146. “A Song of Ice and Fire” is metaphorical on multiple levels. It could refer to any of the following:

      A Song of Ice and Fire is Jon and Dany’s child
      Ice could represent Jon
      Ice could represent the AOTD
      Fire could represent Dany
      Fire could represent dragons
      Jon could be both Ice and Fire since he was the child of a Targaryen and a Stark
      Ice could represent the Starks
      Fire could represent the Targaryens

      It doesn’t have to mean one thing.

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    147. Grail King: And probably thinking : We don’t have enough food.

      Rhaegal could probably feed the populace of Winterfell and Winter Town for at least a few months. Just sayin’.

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    148. Firannion: I see concern and sympathy, not “heart eyes” by any means. They look to me like two siblings reuniting for the first time after both have received some sort of mutually bad news, such as Bran dying.

      Slowing it down, I see a bit of pride being shown, and he looks a tad weary.

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    149. Catspaw Assassin: Rhaegal could probably feed the populace of Winterfell and Winter Town for at least a few months. Just sayin’.

      Let me guess: dragon tastes like chicken?

      If so, watch out for Sandor!

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    150. Mr Derp:
      A Song of Ice and Fire is Jon and Dany’s child
      Ice could represent Jon
      Ice could represent the AOTD
      Fire could represent Dany
      Fire could represent dragons
      Jon could be both Ice and Fire since he was the child of a Targaryen and a Stark
      Ice could represent the Starks
      Fire could represent the Targaryens

      If it can mean a long list of things, it can also mean anything you want it to.

      Explain this one to me – if Jon is Ice how can Dany be the “bride of fire”? Shouldn’t she be the bride “OF Ice,” since she would be Jon’s bride? Does he magically change elements depending on which one is needed to make Jon/Dany the epic endgame couple?

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    151. Mr Derp:
      “A Song of Ice and Fire” is metaphorical on multiple levels.It could refer to any of the following:

      A Song of Ice and Fire is Jon and Dany’s child
      Ice could represent Jon
      Ice could represent the AOTD
      Fire could represent Dany
      Fire could represent dragons
      Jon could be both Ice and Fire since he was the child of a Targaryen and a Stark
      Ice could represent the Starks
      Fire could represent the Targaryens

      It doesn’t have to mean one thing.

      Yeah.
      This is what George says about that

      Shaw: The series title (Song of Ice and Fire) draws on two images that are opposite. With these images, do you mean to suggest that any kind of peace and reconciliation are a lost hope for the people of Westeros?

      Martin: No, not necessarily. I think the contrasts of ice and fire, of love and hate, all the things that they symbolize is one of the themes of what the series is about. You can’t really encapsulate that in a nutshell, but that’s certainly a part of it. I like titles that work on several different levels where the title seems to have an obvious meaning but, if you think about it, also a secondary meaning, perhaps even a tertiary. That’s what I’m striving for here.

      Shaw: As the novels unfold, Jon becomes increasingly identified with the northern cold and ice, just as Dany is closely tied to the southern heat and fire. Will these two ultimately embody the central image of the series, Ice and Fire?

      Martin: That’s certainly one way to interpret it. That’s for my readers to argue out. That may be one possible meaning. There may be a secondary meaning, or a tertiary meaning as well.

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    152. MMJ: Some folks think everything was leading up to Jon and Dany having sex to create more inbred Targaryens

      Yeah, while I’ve had my preference on how I would like the story to end, I’ve never really worked a baby into the equation as important for the conclusion. As far out as the books still are I hadn’t decided what sort of pairing they would have, though I was leaning toward romantic. My thoughts have always been that whatever their relationship is they will be the ones to lead the living in their survival, whether or not they survive themselves. I’m not ready to accept the idea of them becoming foes even if I recognize the possibility.

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    153. Gwidhiel: Let me guess: dragon tastes like chicken?

      If so, watch out for Sandor! (Rhaegal, not Sandor)

      Yes indeedy. but scaling the sucker is a bizotch.

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    154. Tron79: Arya would not keep secrets from Jon like Sansa did last season. She did save the day with the knights of the vale, but she certainly sacrificed thousands of wildlings and northmen since she didn’t let Jon in on the plan.

      What Plan ?
      There is no indication LF got her letter, or if he was still there at Mote Calin, there is also no indication Sansa received a reply and when and where would she receive it?
      They traveled ~1200 miles before Sansa realized they weren’t getting more men and even when she implored Jon to go further he said no; it’s only then did she send a raven probably hoping LF still be there; they also had to go through the wolfwoods to WF, where does the raven go? they’re trained to fly castle to castle.
      Yeah she could had told Jon about sending the raven, but as of the night prior to the battle we have nothing indicating she heard from LF, hence any questions he might have asked she legitimately had no answers for him, except Ramsey’s going to screw with you; and he did.
      There was only 1 plan, Jon’s, and he was taken out of it because Ramsey still had Rickon.

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    155. Catspaw Assassin: Rhaegal could probably feed the populace of Winterfell and Winter Town for at least a few months. Just sayin’.

      How about first having Drogon and Rhaegal fly around and snag up deer, boar, large fish, etc. and drop it all in Winterfell courtyard? 😀

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    156. Jay Targ: Yeah.
      This is what George says about that

      If you want to examine the secondary and tertiary meanings of “ice” in the books, then Ice is associated with armor, hate, treachery, and defense. If Jon is the “ice to dany’s fire” then the books are suggesting that he will use treachery to defend the realm from Dany’s fire? Then there is the metaphor of oppositional forces, Targaryens fighting and a second dance of dragons? Or at best, lukewarm water? Folks gotta be careful relying on these oppositional forces to foreshadow a love story.

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    157. Wouldn’t it be “interesting” if in the books Jon remains dead and Daenerys does have the bloody flux and also dies from it. 😀

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    158. River: The writers have been reading some of the comments on reddit and here, Sansa had a line in S7 when she was being confronted by Arya, “you didn’t win it back, Jon didn’t win it back, he lost the Battle of the Bastards.” She called it the BotB, I don’t recall anyone on the show – Davos, Ramsay, Jon?? ever calling the battle that, did they?

      Hotpie to Arya ” Jon came down from castle black, he won the Battle of the Bastards, he’s in Winterfell now ” paraphrased.

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    159. Gwidhiel: Let me guess: dragon tastes like chicken?

      If so, watch out for Sandor!

      “Listening to talkers makes me thirsty…. And hungry. Think I’ll take two dragons.”

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    160. River,

      The EW article contradicts an earlier statement made saying that it might air outside of the 2019 Emmy eligibility period so if EW is to be trusted, GoT would air alongside Veep’s final season. For years, GoT and Veep aired together in April and HBO might pair those two together again for maximum Emmy chances,

      Thank goodness! The other news didn’t sound credible.

      firstone,

      That is a very good explanation why Arya acted the way she did toward Sansa in season 7… I didn’t think about looking all the way back to season 1 but your point makes a lot of sense! The story is tied together like a divine jigsaw puzzle.

      It was. That was past, but there was also a real and present problem. In the godswood, she learned the evil Littlefinger was there and had tried to bribe Bran with the Dagger. She almost certainly detected that there was more involved than Sansa’s simple explanation of his presence. Something was wrong in the Winterfell garden. And then Bran passed her *Littlefinger’s* Dagger. It’s no surprise she started investigating him and asking questions of Sansa.

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    161. We finally get our first S8 tease and it’s not quite what I was expecting. Sure it’s only 1-2 seconds of actual footage but I was expecting a tease with a line of audio and confirmation of May 2019 premiere so this is a bonus. I guess we will get that though in the coming weeks or so as it feels like things are now building up.

      As for the shot, it’s quite a telling one as clearly Sansa is not happy with something. I’d also take an educated guess this is from the first episode.

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    162. Jack Bauer 24:
      Also, regarding the premiere and Emmy eligibility James Hibberd just said…

      “GoT returns for its final six episodes that will air during the first half of 2019. There have been reports over the weekend claiming the show’s return has been “delayed” to mid-2019 making not eligible for Emmys until 2020. Rest assured, “first half of 2019” means exactly that, and HBO expects the show will air all its episodes in time for the 2019 Emmy eligibility cut off.”

      YeahClarke posted on twitter that if Hibberd is correct (and he usually is) then S8 would have to premiere in late April 2019 as episodes would need to finish before end of May.

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    163. Clob:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      TD: Jan. 6 – Feb. 24
      BLL: Mar. 3 – Apr. 14
      GoT: Apr. 21 – May 26 (and make the eligibility deadline)

      I’m still going to refuse to believe a June or later premiere.

      These are the exact dates that @yeahclarke speculated as the most likely on Twitter. I am feeling we are probably not too far away from an official tease now and official confirmation of the month at least.

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    164. Edward:
      This tiny footage gave me so much happiness. I can’t wait for more!!

      Hopefully we get an actual teaser by the end of October.

      I would like to think we will get a full trailer by the end of the year with footage and dialogue.

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    165. Jon Snowed: These are the exact dates that @yeahclarke speculated as the most likely on Twitter. I am feeling we are probably not too far away from an official tease now and official confirmation of the month at least.

      I wouldn’t expect any of that before the end of the year. They’ve always announced the premiere dates at the Winter TCA’s in January, except for last year when they announced it even later.

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    166. Danny:
      firstone,

      Arya was suspicious of Sansa’s intentions because she had preconceived notions of who his sister was.What she remembered of Sansa was the girl who refused to support Arya’s account of what happened in her confrontation with Joffrey over Micah. She remembered the girl who was so enamored with the idea of being a princess that she was willing to go against family.Arya did not question Sansa’s motives out of thin air, there was history there.They did not like each other.

      Jon, on the other hand, was/is her favorite sibling.The show didn’t portray the strong Jon-Arya bond as extensively as the book does but I’m not sure there’s another relationship that is more loving than Jon-Arya’s relationship in the entire series.Arya may be wary of Daenerys, for various reasons, but I would be incredibly surprised if she ever doubted Jon’s character.

      thank you for mentioning that.

      i was always surprised more people did not pick up on the fact that the last time the sisters were together Arya had a lot of reason to mistrust Sansa so it was natural that once conflict started she would quickly revert to that view.

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    167. BeardedOnion,

      Dany and Sansa will probably have some tension, this is ZERO surprise. But I expect Dany and Arya to get along. I don’t know exactly why but I always pictured this in my head. I also love the idea of Dany and Arya having a bond. Even if for just a few moments.

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    168. Jack Bauer 24,

      Yeah, a teaser is highly unlikely this time of the year. Too soon. My guess is that the first teaser will drop in December, then we will have another in January, Plus the official date.

        Quote  Reply

    169. MMJ,

      Well, maybe not their sex action part, but the meeting of Jon and Dany is the ultimate ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’, without a question. GRRM said himself. Their paths have been in parallels all these years for a reason. Also, Emilia and Kit have been knowing this for years. If Dany is indeed already pregnant at the beginning of season 8 (which I suspect she will be), their child will for sure have a pivotal importance in how everything is going to end, and also how everything is going to continue.

        Quote  Reply

    170. firstone,

      Even Sansa and Melisandre have a better shot in hook up than Sansa and Jon lol, hell…even Arya and Hot Pie have more chance hahaha. Anyone who sees Something more than sibling care about Sansa and Jon is beyond delusional.

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    171. Mr Derp,

      Even GRRM said himself that the meeting of Jon and Dany is the main point and the ultimate ‘ a Song of Ice and Fire’. There’s no misunderstanding on this.

        Quote  Reply

    172. Thi Targaryen:
      BeardedOnion,

      … But I expect Dany and Arya to get along. I don’t know exactly why but I always pictured this in my head. I also love the idea of Dany and Arya having a bond. Even if for just a few moments.

      Of course Arya will get along with Dany. Arya is a Targaryen warrior fangirl:

      S2e7 Arya: “Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OTOiMQchKw

      at 2:40: “Aegon…and his sisters”
      3:04: “Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior…”

      (FYI Look at future ASNAWP scoping out Tywin’s neck at 1:14)

        Quote  Reply

    173. Mr Derp,

      100% true. Anyone who don’t see that Jon and Dany (especially in the show) are the most important characters is being blind this whole time.

        Quote  Reply

    174. Lunaselene,

      even Arya and Hot Pie have more chance than Sansa and Jon lol. There’s literally zero prove that they could have something more than a sibling and completely platonic relationship. I honestly dont even know how anyone could see Jon ever kissing the girl he was raised his entire life to think it was his sister. It would have to be a Jon assassination to this happen. Jon would never. Plus, after 7×07 I think its pretty safe to say that Jon is completely (with soul, heart and body), focusing in his relationship with Dany. I think they are trying the whole stark bowl again with this, but I don’t see a Sansa vs Jon happening. This material was probably the less spoiler they had to show. Simple as that.

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    175. MMJ,

      Don’t. They only put this because it’s the less spoiler thing they had. Sansa and Jon have one and only dynamic: a sibling and platonic one. So, they could try to hype the whole stark bowl again, but I doubt it. There’s no time left for this nonsense. The big war is coming and there is tons of things to happen on season 8. There will be probably tension between Sansa and Dany as expected, but I don’t see this lasting more than one episode. Like I said, they have little time and more important things to focus in season 8.

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    176. anthony jordan:
      fdr,

      oh yeah sansa is definitely the younger more beautiful queen and as you said an alliance makes sense jon is a trueborn targ and sansa is a trueborn stark it will be rhaeagar and lyanna all over again except their marraige will bring the north and south together.thats ice and fire.the show will not end in a targ restoration

      Jon and Sansa are not going to get married…. Queen Daenerys said what is going to happen when she met Jon Snow in S7 E3 The Queen’s Justice. …

      A Targaryen will sit on the Iron Throne Aegon Targargon aka: Jon Snow and a Stark will be warden of the North aka: Sansa Stark –

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    177. Gwidhiel,

      It won’t happen. There was zero indication of the possibility of Jon and Sansa as a something more than platonic..The GA audience never heard about this disgusting theories and when they knew in a article they got pretty horrified about it. Sansa was raised as his siblings. Even if him and Dany are related, they never knew this and were pretty much strangers to each other and getting attracted to one another. Thats why its acceptable and people ship jonerys. The possibility of Sansa and Jon is disgusting as the possibility of Arya and Jon in the series. It will never happen.

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    178. Well, Sansa is opening her arms to Jon. You can see the side of her face. Her cheek looks like she maybe smiling at him as he approaches. I need to see his hair better, but could his hair be braided? Dany’s cultural influence?

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    179. Mr Derp,

      Lmao. You nailed this one. This place is having some trolls lately, because i refuse to believe anyone not being a troll would think this dull promo means that D & D will do a love triangle in season 8. Lol. This hiatus is seriously making some serious brain damage in some people.

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    180. River,

      I dont think Tyrion has feelings for her in the romantic side, just because I think he knows he doesn’t have any chance with Dany..but I think he is kind of in love in the way Dany treats him..like being treated like a human being for the first time and be respected..also, who wouldn’t be in love with Dany? I mean she is the most beautiful queen! And also is powerful and have dragons..is like seeing a dream just in front of their eyes..but yeah, it would be funny see all the tension with Jon-Dany-Jorah-Tyrion-Daario in the same place. Lol.

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    181. Jon Snowed:
      As for the shot, it’s quite a telling one as clearly Sansa is not happy with something.I’d also take an educated guess this is from the first episode.

      My guess is that 2 second season 8 tease will be the final 2 seconds of Season 8 Episode 1 – the first episode cliffhanger… everybody will have to wait another week to find out what sansa is looking at 🙂

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    182. On multiple rewatches and freeze frames (ha!), Sansa Stare is in two phases: first two frames are the unfocused, not happy look. Third frame she raises her gaze. Determined? Resolved? Can’t say for sure without full context. Also makes me wonder if this is before/after the original intros and Jon is trying to placate her. She learned early on not to show what she’s thinking around those she doesn’t trust, so if she was in eye shot of anyone she perceived as a potential threat, I think she’d sheathe her dagger eyes.

      My main Jonsa feeling: I don’t think they’re in love. But if, when it all shakes down it’s politically advantageous for them to marry, I wouldn’t freak out. By then, this person “I never really thought of as a sibling until we were the only family left, but then found out was just my cousin” won’t seem so impossible to marry. Jon’s ga-ga for Dany, but I don’t think they did all that Ned/Cat (who also married out of politically expediency) paralleling in s6 just for kicks.

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    183. I’ll never understand why some people have to behave so childishly and abusively in response to people’s opinions on the fictional characters on a TV show.

      There’s no excuse.

        Quote  Reply

    184. OK, I agree with folks who have said that there’s really no way to make reasonable predictions about what S8 has in store for us from this sliver of footage. That said, I’ll toss an idea into the ring about who Sansa might be looking at. My own head canon has Arya going to meet Jon in White Harbor, possibly to deliver a message to him that Sansa wouldn’t trust to a raven (e.g. maybe about playing down surrendering his kingship until the North gets to know Daenerys). I’m 100% on-board with the prospect of Team Stark Sisters in S8, and if that is how the story progresses, perhaps she’s meeting Arya’s eyes, asking silently “is it bad, really bad, or worse than we’d imagined?”

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    185. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      I’ll never understand why some people have to behave so childishly and abusively in response to people’s opinions on the fictional characters on a TV show.

      There’s no excuse.

      It is a puzzler. I’ve certainly butted heads with folks on various topics, including in this thread, and at times I’ve been exasperated if I feel the conversation is going in circles, but if I find myself without anything constructive to say in response to someone I just say nothing. Goodness, none of us know what’s going to happen in S8. We’re just speculating! I know I hold some very different opinions from Jay Targaryen, Mr. Derp, Clob, and many others here, but I really appreciate the way all of the aforementioned folks, and most others in this community communicate respectfully.

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    186. NinaD: Jon’s ga-ga for Dany, but I don’t think they did all that Ned/Cat (who also married out of politically expediency) paralleling in s6 just for kicks.

      They paralleled Jon and Sansa with Ned/Cat, but they also paralleled them with Ned/Arya and Cat/Robb.

      For example, Ned tells Arya that they can’t fight a war amongst themselves (1×03), same as Jon does to Sansa in (6×10).

      The whole war council meeting before the BOTW also gave me vibes to the various scenes between Cat and Robb. Same with Sansa advising in S7 like Cat advised Robb.

      It’s sort of neat how they’ve been able to this.

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    187. Grail King,

      There is some truth to what you outline, but Jon was going door to door begging for banner men. I think he would have wanted to know that the Knights of the Vale were a possibility. IMO it was just wrong for Sansa to keep her LF alliance to herself and not trust Jon. Jon was risking everything. I’m not a Sansa hater btw. I think her character has grown over the years, and she is to admired for doing what she had to do to survive. She is a survivor. But she has some major flaws. She thinks she is being strategic by not sharing everything with Jon. But Jon explains to her from the ramparts at Winterfell that they need to be able to trust each other, since they have enemies all around them. Sophie even got a tattoo that says “the pack survives”. I hope Sansa gets that. I think she does, but unless the Starks (+ Stark/Targ) trust each other, it’s going to be a tough road ahead. The WW and KK are the real enemies, and I hope Sansa won’t go the route of Cersie and lose site of that. I hope Sansa doesn’t start getting territorial with the mother of dragons. They need all the help they can get to survive.

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    188. Tron79,

      But how does she know it’s a possibility?
      She refused him, because 1. what he did by selling her to the Boltons, 2.She believed her fathers words about the North and loyalty, only to find out differently because of Robb’s mistake. 3. after all the shit he did to her, Tyrion, Lysa do you honestly think she want him near her, or Jon, like Ramsey he’s a threat to them and he move to eliminate them.
      As I said they traveled 1200 miles before she even thought they would need him, it took Robert a month to travel from KL to Winterfell, how long was she and Jon on the road and sea before she sent the Raven?.
      As I said she could have mention to Jon before the battle, but she had no answers that she could give to : when,where, and how many; Jon’s plan depended on Ramsey charging them and Jon and company staying put; but Ramsey had someone Sansa and Jon didn’t, Rickon. Ramsey wouldn’t let Jon sit back for long before he bring his hostage out and as Sansa warned make Jon do what he shouldn’t do.
      Add to that, LF plan was to arrive when both sides were depleted and mop up the Boltons, leaving the Stark forces weakened.
      The results would be the same.

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    189. I think the hug was a honest hug, Jon looked weary, he also looked a bit proud at Sansa and as he gets close HER arms are open wide to except him in embrace, then we have a blip, (maybe they said words) then we have Sansa stare, I don’t think it’s a mean stare but it could be a UN-trusting stare at a person or group.
      What did NCW say about Sansa that got possibly screwed up in translation: she’s either not trust worthy or she’s has problems with trusting others.

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    190. firstone:
      viki,

      I think Jamie is going to have a tough time being accepted by the Starks for a couple episodes…

      When the Night King attacks Winterfell. Jamie will probably save one or two Starks lives or maybe Brans life … then Jamie will be forgiven for pushing Bran out the window… Jamie’s brave and heroic acts will be witnessed in season 8 and written in the books of books.

      I think you are right on the money here. I suspect Jamie won’t reach Winterfell until episode 2 but when he does he won’t get a warm welcome. His only redemption may be to save a stark when it kicks off in presumably episodes 3 & 4.

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    191. Clob: This is in essence what my thoughts have been. While it can be expected that we’ll get more of the grandstanding and complaining about this person and that person, it all needs to be resolved rather quickly. The shit is going to hit the fan! At that point one would think they’d all be happy to have more

      To be honest I am expecting the first episode to largely cover reunions and interactions. I expect there to be tensions but the show has to give coverage of Jon and Arya, Jon and Bran, Dany having an uneasy welcome in the North, The Hound and Sansa, Sansa and Tyrion etc. these are all going to take up time in the first episode. This is why I doubt we will see Jamie in Winterfell apart from possibly the very end of the episode. Also Jon’s parentage reveal may be the climax of the episode so we get that and Jamie/Bran in episode two as the AotD approach Winterfell.

      I’d guess we will only get a brief reminder of the White Walkers either with them attacking the Umber home or fighting the Nights Watch. We will also get a check in with Cersei and I’d guess we won’t see Theon or Euron.

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    192. Dyanna,

      It’s lame, yeah. I’m guessing it’s aimed towards the casuals. Reminds them of the show coming back with a recap of what they haven’t seen or thought about in over a year.

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    193. Jon Snowed,

      I wouldn’t be too happy at first if my brother finally came home but brought the baggage that is enemy Lannisters, Targaryen’s and barbarians in tow (Jamie could in fact meet up with them en route if he left soon after they did, I don’t remember if that goodbye scene with Cercei had timing clues). At the same time, I’d be happy to see him alive of course not to mention the fact he’s brought reinforcements for the coming war. But fact is he has succeeded in his Southern mission and that should make her respectful of him so without having seen the footage (not too anxious as it’ only 2 seconds right?) I would guess that she’s looking at Dany. It’s understandable for her to be suspicious, and even jealous, of her.

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    194. Ten Bears:
      River,

      Sansa had a line in S7 when she was being confronted by Arya, “you didn’t win it back, Jon didn’t win it back, he lost the Battle of the Bastards.” She called it the BotB, I don’t recall anyone on the show – Davos, Ramsay, Jon?? ever calling the battle that, did they? The episode title itself I think was born on the internet. D&D were definitely reading comments online.”
      ——–Yes they did. HPNN (Hot Pie News Network) in S7e2 – paraphrasing:

      HP: “I thought you’d be headed to Winterfell.”
      Arya: “Why would I go there? The Boltons have it.”
      HP: “No. The Boltons are dead.”
      Arya: “What?”
      HP:“Jon Snow cane down from Castle Black with a Wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards. He’s King in the North now.”

      Ok I missed that one. Wonder what S8E3 title might be? The great war? Battle of Ice and Fire? The long night? Winterfell?(since something bad might happen here based on set spoilers) Time for Wolves?

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    195. ygritte:
      Dyanna,

      It’s lame, yeah. I’m guessing it’s aimed towards the casuals. Reminds them of the show coming back with a recap of what they haven’t seen or thought about in over a year.

      Yeah bit of a cop out really. Although I’m whinging because I’m disappointed lol

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    196. Mr Derp:
      Gwidhiel,

      I didn’t say anything about romance or unity.I was reiterating that Dany and Jon are the most important characters in the show.Unity or not.

      Agree, Jon and Dany might end this show with them going to war with each other or ruling together and having lots of Targaryen babies, but the bottom line is that this is their story from the start. ASOIAF is their story, ice and fire is not the Night King and his army of the dead and Dany’s dragons 🙂

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    197. Thi Targaryen:
      River,

      I dont think Tyrion has feelings for her in the romantic side, just because I think he knows he doesn’t have any chance with Dany..but I think he is kind of in love in the way Dany treats him..like being treated like a human being for the first time and be respected..also, who wouldn’t be in love with Dany?I mean she is the most beautiful queen! And also is powerful and have dragons..is like seeing a dream just in front of their eyes..but yeah, it would be funny see all the tension with Jon-Dany-Jorah-Tyrion-Daario in the same place. Lol.

      GRRM originally wanted a Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle so I wouldn’t put it pass them(D&D) to explore that in some way come S8. Dany might be the new Arya in that triangle, why was Tyrion lurking near Dany’s bedroom though? He had this, that could have been me look haha maybe I’m overreaching here but I want Tyrion to find someone who will make him happy. If not Dany, someone else maybe Missandei if Greyworm idk die in battle? I want him to be happy and in love with someone nice and without any agenda whatsoever.

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    198. I just watched the clip and all I saw was Jon in close up walking towards someone and then Sansa’s eyes as she’s hugging presumably Jon. I didn’t see what people are saying about her arms stretched out to give him a hug or her side profile, nothing. As for Sansa’s look it’s hard to say cause we only see her eyes but to me they look abit plotting/devious. I don’t get the sense she is looking at any particular person.

      What if this hug is when/after she learns of his true identity and attempts to show comfort to him but finds her feelings have run cold instead OR what if she realized she has romantic feelings for Jon and is resentful towards Dany?

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    199. arya and hotpie are the perfect match and sansa and tyrion. throw gendry at the red priestess for all i care. honestly, anyone who has not worked out yet to relegate all their pathetic family prejudices to the ‘who cares’ pile and get back to back with anyone who is breathing in an effort to save humanity against the nothingness does not deserve a place amongst the living. and that goes for anyone whether they be high born or low born.

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    200. Grail King:
      Tron79,

      But how does she know it’s a possibility?
      She refused him, because 1. what he did by selling her to the Boltons, 2.She believed her fathers words about the North and loyalty, only to find out differently because of Robb’s mistake. 3. after all the shit he did to her, Tyrion, Lysa do you honestly think she want him near her, or Jon, like Ramsey he’s a threat to them and he move to eliminate them.
      As I said they traveled 1200 miles before she even thought they would need him, it took Robert a month to travel from KL to Winterfell, how long was she and Jon on the road and seabefore she sent the Raven?.
      As I said she could have mention to Jon before the battle, but she had no answers that she could give to : when,where, and how many; Jon’s plan depended on Ramsey charging them and Jon and company staying put; but Ramsey had someone Sansa and Jon didn’t, Rickon. Ramsey wouldn’t let Jon sit back for long before he bring his hostage out and as Sansa warned make Jon do what he shouldn’t do.
      Add to that, LF plan was to arrive when both sides were depleted and mop up the Boltons, leaving the Stark forces weakened.
      The results would be the same.

      I have to say you definitely have Sansa’s back and defend her well. Perhaps the results would have been the same as you said. It’s hard for me to get behind her decisions. She starts by lying at the war council about where she got the information about the Tullys. She lies right to their faces. Looking forward to season 8, I hope I’m able to see Sansa more the way you do. After the first glance, it looks like she may already be worrying about Dany. But it is hard to say with a clip of only a few seconds!

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    201. Some body help me out? I didn’t notice which shots were new??! they all seemed from season 7 to me.
      Anybody have any stills?

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    202. Just browsing the comments – so we get a clip of Sansa and Jon hugging and that leads to 200 comments about the hug and that it could be a love triangle HAHAHA
      come on

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    203. River: Ok I missed that one. Wonder what S8E3 title might be? The great war? Battle of Ice and Fire? The long night? Winterfell?(since something bad might happen here based on set spoilers) Time for Wolves?

      Ooh! Projecting S8 episode titles! That’s a fun exercise. BTW, I think all five of your suggestions are good candidates. My personal favorite, though I doubt it’ll be used, would be “A Dragon Princess.”

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    204. River,

      Uggh. Six episodes left, and we’re supposed to think there will be love triangles to sort out? No. Just no. Please, no.

      #NoBabyDrama
      #NoCouplings
      #NoLoveTriangles
      #WalltoWallASNAWP
      #F*ckthe(Night)King
      #NoMagicZygote

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    205. Thi Targaryen:
      BeardedOnion,

      Dany and Sansa will probably have some tension, this is ZERO surprise. But I expect Dany and Arya to get along. I don’t know exactly why but I always pictured this in my head. I also love the idea of Dany and Arya having a bond. Even if for just a few moments.

      About Arya & Dany: My reply last night disappeared into the ether. I’m separating it into two parts and trying again ….
      Aug. 28, 9:16 am

        Quote  Reply

    206. (Cont. from 9:16 am)

      I think my reply was that Arya is a Targaryen warrior women fangirl (see S2e7 scene below), and will be impressed with Daenerys Targaryen – especially if she hears about Dany’s heroic rescue of the Snow Patrol.

      S2e7 Arya: “Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OTOiMQchKw

      at 2:40: “Aegon…and his sisters”
      3:04: “Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior…”

      (FYI Look at future ASNAWP scoping out Tywin’s neck at 1:14)

      PS Come to think of it, Dany and Arya can compare notes and bond over Dany’s Khal BBQ and Arya’s House Frey wine tasting party; or Dany’s Tarly-roasting and Arya’s Frey moron sons-baking.

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    207. Thi Targaryen:
      River,

      I dont think Tyrion has feelings for her in the romantic side, just because I think he knows he doesn’t have any chance with Dany..but I think he is kind of in love in the way Dany treats him..like being treated like a human being for the first time and be respected..also, who wouldn’t be in love with Dany?I mean she is the most beautiful queen! And also is powerful and have dragons..is like seeing a dream just in front of their eyes..but yeah, it would be funny see all the tension with Jon-Dany-Jorah-Tyrion-Daario in the same place. Lol.

      you strike me as a bit of a dunderhead. You have been spamming this forum in what appears to be some kind of effort to impose your philosophies and wishes onto the other readers here. Why would Danareys not consider Tyrion as a match? Because he is a dwarf? If that came into her reckoning then she would not only be a pleb as a normal person, she would also have no place in the world of nobility. If you do not understand this then you can not even begin to get your head around the world of nobility. When you marry as a noble you do not pick your suitor because they are appealing to your eye. They are more or less picked for you by mentors who have both eyes firmly fixed on the political landscape of the realm. How then is Tyrion not in the equation? If Jaime should fall (as seems highly likely) then Tyrion will become the patriarch of the lannister line. I would love to be privvy to an erudite explanation of how the patriarch of the lannister’s is not a viable option for a single queen of westeros. Danarerys understands this simple harsh reality, and it is why she left Dario behind in essos. It is what made rob a chump of a king. that he could not love a woman from volantis and put her aside for the good of the realm.

        Quote  Reply

    208. I love Dee’s comment “two seconds of a hug and 200 comments” WTF? ha
      Safe to say the fandom is starving for content.

      I would love to have seen this comment section if that was a hug between Jon and Arya. Have to get another server.

        Quote  Reply

    209. Dee Stark:
      Just browsing the comments – so we get a clip of Sansa and Jon hugging and that leads to 200 comments about the hug and that it could be a love triangle HAHAHA
      come on

      Well, yeah, a lot of it is about the hug shot but it’s branched out into several topics. I didn’t have a lot to say about the clip itself, but since we’re [here] may as well start spouting some nonsense. 😛

        Quote  Reply

    210. Dee Stark:
      Just browsing the comments – so we get a clip of Sansa and Jon hugging and that leads to 200 comments about the hug and that it could be a love triangle HAHAHA
      come on

      You forgot the STARE ! lol

        Quote  Reply

    211. This reminds me of pre-season 6 speculation when we were obsessing over the direction Arya was looking, and whether or not she was at the Inn at the Crossroads.

        Quote  Reply

    212. Ten Bears: Ooh! Projecting S8 episode titles! That’s a fun exercise. BTW, I think all five of your suggestions are good candidates. My personal favorite, though I doubt it’ll be used, would be “A Dragon Princess.”

      Yes I already have several titles in mind. For S8E3, I’m leaning towards “Winterfell,” based on what we know from that fire, something is going down at Winterfell. The series finale might be called, a dream of spring or time for wolves, but mine is “A Song of Ice and Fire,” if it ends with a union between you know who and you know who haha

      But really what could be the series finale title for the show? like “the game ends,” “end game,” too on the nose and silly. This is also silly because the show is called GoT but what if the writers decide on “A Game of Thrones,” as the series finale title? If that episode is full of possible betrayals what could be more fitting for the final episode right?

        Quote  Reply

    213. Tron79: I have to say you definitely have Sansa’s back and defend her well. Perhaps the results would have been the same as you said. It’s hard for me to get behind her decisions. She starts by lying at the war council about where she got the information about the Tullys. She lies right to their faces.Looking forward to season 8, I hope I’m able to see Sansa more the way you do. After the first glance, it looks like she may already be worrying about Dany. But it is hard to say with a clip of only a few seconds!

      That’s fine.
      WRG to Sansa and Molestown, I say total trust issues, I also don’t think she feel Jon being happy that she did something that could be dangerous to her, and she doesn’t want LF involved with her family period.
      Brienne called her on it, and we can see she hit a nerve with Sansa. I think Sansa also felt hopefully or naively her uncle would support them, but to keep LF out of the mix and possible judgement from Jon she changed the barer of the message.
      It was a chance for more aide, we don’t know ( but a good guess would be Jon refusing LF ) if Jon accept LF, knowing what he did. Jon did choke him in the crypts after all.

        Quote  Reply

    214. Mr Derp: obsessing over the direction Arya was looking

      Yep, there was a ton of speculation about that. I was almost certain that Ed Sheeran’s cameo was going to be as a minstrel and she was watching him perform at the inn. Wrong. I think I would have preferred that for his scene though. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    215. Clob,

      I agree. I wasn’t among the people who had a problem with the Ed Sheeran cameo, but I did think they could’ve done it differently that didn’t make it quite so obvious that it was him. It kind of took me out of the moment, but it wasn’t a big deal at all.

      And the soldier who practically did everything but ask for Arya’s ID in order to give her a drink was a bit much for me. They were nice guys though.

      However, I did enjoy the conversation when the soldier was discussing his newborn baby and that he had no idea whether it was a girl or boy. The line where he says that he hopes it’s a girl because girls take care of their father while the boys are off fighting someone else’s war. That was a great piece of conversation and it stuck with me.

        Quote  Reply

    216. ygritte:
      I just watched the clip and all I saw was Jon in close up walking towards someone and then Sansa’s eyes as she’s hugging presumably Jon. I didn’t see what people are saying about her arms stretched out to give him a hug or her side profile, nothing. As for Sansa’s look it’s hard to say cause we only see her eyes but to me they look abit plotting/devious. I don’t get the sense she is looking at any particular person.

      What if this hug is when/after she learns of his true identity and attempts to show comfort to him but finds her feelings have run cold instead OR what if she realized she has romantic feelings for Jon and is resentful towards Dany?

      Slow it down, we clearly see Sansa open wide to embrace him, we see her left side and red hair.
      WRG to BOTB, yeah a bit LOL.

        Quote  Reply

    217. River,

      Since the entire book series is ASoIaF and they haven’t used it yet I do believe they will for one of the episodes. I can see them titling it just “Ice and Fire” though. I guess it depends on how they want to use it, for which episode they’d use it. If they want to wrap the entire series with something that says, ‘and that’s the story,’ they could use it for the finale with the entire ASoIaF title. Although, like people have mentioned before, I could easily see them naming the finale “A Dream of Spring.” So, maybe that for e6 and “Ice and Fire” for e5. *shrug* It’s difficult to guess titles with no solid idea what happens when…

        Quote  Reply

    218. Mr Derp,

      I did like the scene well enough. In hindsight I think I would have kept everything about it (*) but removed Ed’s character and used him elsewhere. I do think he could have been wondering around the Inn at the Crossroads performing for coin… moved to the background while ASNAWP and Hot Pie were talking.

      * Everything else except the “are you old enough to drink” line. I don’t know what that was. >.>

        Quote  Reply

    219. the unburdened,

      Hey! Let’s keep it civil, okay? Your reply (below) was prefaced with a wholly unnecessary – and prohibited – personal attack. There was nothing in Thi Targaryen’s comment that warranted a vituperative reply.

      You wrote:

      “you strike me as a bit of a dunderhead. You have been spamming this forum in what appears to be some kind of effort to impose your philosophies and wishes onto the other readers here…”

      ———–
      From FAQ:
      Q: What is the moderation policy when commenting on Watchers On the Wall ?

      A: WatchersOnTheWall.com has an open commenting policy for the most part, but personal attacks on other commenters are not permitted…

        Quote  Reply

    220. Loosehead:
      Less than 2 seconds! Not good enough. At all.

      Well I don’t know. It seems to depend on who you ask. Apparently within those <2 seconds some were able to draw the conclusion that Jon and Sansa will get married and Sansa's definitely giving Dany the evil eye. Maybe if we stare at those <2 seconds long enough we'll be able to unlock the ending to it all!

        Quote  Reply

    221. Mr Derp,

      I thought the scene with the friendly Lannister soldiers in S7e1 evoked the spirit of the books’ famous “Broken Man” speech better than the show’s version (by Brother Ray in S6e7 “The Broken Man”), e.g., the idealistic view of war as an adventure vs. its horrible reality; and boys finding themselves fighting and dying in “someone else’s war.”

      (Excepts – S7e1)

      Soldier #2: “All my life, I wanted to see the Red Keep, the Sept of Baelor, the Dragonpit. Then when I finally make it, they wouldn’t let me within a mile of the Red Keep, the Sept of Baelor’s blown to hell, and the Dragonpit is a damn ruin.”

      Soldier #3: “The people who live there, they’d skin you alive if they could make two coppers off your hide.”

      Soldier #2: “Worst place in the world.”

      ***
      Arya: “You’re a long way from home. I’m sure you’ve had some adventures, though.”

      Soldier #1: “Yeah, endless adventures. They’ll be singing about us for a thousand years.”

      (Soldiers laugh)

      Soldier #2: “The truth is when we left home, we couldn’t wait to get away. But now we’ve been gone a while, we can’t wait to get home.”

      Soldier #1: “I just think about my dad out there on his boat all alone. I ought to be out there with him.”

      Soldier #3: “My wife’s just had our first baby.”
      ***
      Soldier #3: “Girls take care of their papas when their papas grow old. Boys just go off to fight in someone else’s wars.”

        Quote  Reply

    222. Mr Derp: Well I don’t know.It seems to depend on who you ask.Apparently within those <2 seconds some were able to draw the conclusion that Jon and Sansa will get married and Sansa’s definitely giving Dany the evil eye.Maybe if we stare at those <2 seconds long enough we’ll be able to unlock the ending to it all!

      Surely we will soon see images of 50x magnification of Sansa’s eyes, which will allegedly show us the reflection of what she’s looking at?

        Quote  Reply

    223. Gwidhiel,

      Oooh, I like it! What we really need on top of that is a body language expert who will take the time to tell us just exactly what’s going on here, lol. 55% of communication is nonverbal don’t you know.

        Quote  Reply

    224. Mr Derp,

      Heh, exactly. It’s been an interesting thread, certainly. Observing myself and my own reactions to ideas floated here, and then how other people post and conduct themselves, I can see how online discourse gives people tunnel vision and encourages them to double down on their beliefs. And this is just about a TV show!

        Quote  Reply

    225. Gwidhiel,

      I know, right? Just imagine how heated the debates would get if we actually discussed real life issues…

      …actually, I’d rather not imagine it. Nevermind, lol.

        Quote  Reply

    226. Mr Derp:
      Gwidhiel,

      Oooh, I like it!What we really need on top of that is a body language expert who will take the time to tell us just exactly what’s going on here, lol.55% of communication is nonverbal don’t you know.

      i am sure that a body language expert would come up with a comment something like, ‘sophie is quite obviously annoyed with the director telling her for the umpteenth dozen time, ‘you are a tree, swaying in the breeze, I NEED YOU TO BE THAT TREE.’

        Quote  Reply

    227. Mr Derp:
      I know, right?Just imagine how heated the debates would get if we actually discussed real life issues…

      …actually, I’d rather not imagine it.Nevermind, lol.

      That is exactly why I’m here. My thoughts about what will happen on this show don’t keep me awake at night, whereas the real world …

        Quote  Reply

    228. the unburdened: ‘sophie is quite obviously annoyed with the director telling her for the umpteenth dozen time, ‘you are a tree, swaying in the breeze, I NEED YOU TO BE THAT TREE.’

      Surely that’s what he says to Isaac, no?

        Quote  Reply

    229. Congratulations to us all! 293 comments extrapolating from a two second snippet that could mean anything – or nothing at all.

      Imagine when we get a real trailer or set photos.

        Quote  Reply

    230. Gwidhiel,

      lol , yeah 🙂 well it was just director speak, just allegorical.
      btw @ S4E9 of the rewatch, looks like i may even fit in a re-read before season 8 starts 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    231. Ten Bears:

      PS Come to think of it, Dany and Arya can compare notes and bond over Dany’s Khal BBQ and Arya’s House Frey wine tasting party; or Dany’s Tarly-roasting and Arya’s Frey moron sons-baking.

      i can’t wait for this. the two most dangerous women of Planetos talk kitchen business. this deserves an own thread, just like the Night King’s tweeting.

        Quote  Reply

    232. death by chickenfire: i can’t wait for this. the two most dangerous women of Planetos talk kitchen business. this deserves an own thread, just like the Night King’s tweeting.

      Dammit, that’s twice I’ve snorted my covfefe.

      That is a drawback of this medium, no topic-specific threads.

        Quote  Reply

    233. This thread pretty much describes my chronic migraines.

      COME ON, PEOPLE! Sansa isn’t glaring or plotting or pissed off or in love – she’s simply preoccupied with something on her mind that’s less exciting – how the grain stores are doing, the best stitch to use on the Stark Winter Collection for fashion week, or whether anyone will find Lord Glover’s body.

        Quote  Reply

    234. Pigeon:
      This thread pretty much describes my chronic migraines.

      COME ON, PEOPLE! Sansa isn’t glaring or plotting or pissed off or in love – she’s simply preoccupied with something on her mind that’s less exciting – how the grain stores are doing, the best stitch to use on the Stark Winter Collection for fashion week, or whether anyone will find Lord Glover’s body.

      Or maybe the fact that the Wall has come down!!!

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    235. House Monty: Or maybe the fact that the Wall has come down!!!

      Exactly! Some minor, unimportant thing. 😜
      “Jon, why does your girlfriend’s dragon have blue eyes?”
      “Oh, son of a….”

        Quote  Reply

    236. Pigeon: Exactly! Some minor, unimportant thing. 😜
      “Jon, why does your girlfriend’s dragon have blue eyes?”
      “Oh, son of a….”

      Dany: “He’s still got him.”
      Sandor: “Got what?”
      Dany: “My dragon. Viserion.”
      Sandor: “Of course you named your dragon,”
      Dany: “Lots of people name their dragons.”
      Sandor: “Lots of c*nts.”

      [Sorry…]

        Quote  Reply

    237. I keep forgetting that none of them know yet that the NK is flying around on Viserion (other than Tormund & Beric). Jon should probably expect the possibility having witnessed a ‘raising’ before but hasn’t mentioned it. I’d think Daenerys will have a hard time seeing it the first time.

        Quote  Reply

    238. Clob,

      Yea, that’ll be heartbreaking for sure. It’s bad enough he died, now she’s gotta see him come back to life as the NK’s slave.

      A dragon is no slave and Dany is the breaker of chains. I think she has a new set of wight slaves to set free in season 8.

        Quote  Reply

    239. Clob:
      I keep forgetting that none of them know yet that the NK is flying around on Viserion (other than Tormund & Beric).Jon should probably expect the possibility having witnessed a ‘raising’ before but hasn’t mentioned it.I’d think Daenerys will have a hard time seeing it the first time.

      Bran knows, doesn’t he? I thought he warged a flock of ravens to fly to the Wall and saw the NK take out the Wall.

      Unrelated but whatever: did Gendry go to KL with the wight expedition? I don’t recall seeing him there but also didn’t see him at the Wall with Beric & Tormund.

        Quote  Reply

    240. Gwidhiel,

      Yes, Bran should know. He was watching the Wall fall from the Weirwood Tree. I assume he’s told Sansa, and that’s why she looks the way she does in that 1-2 sec. clip from season 8. Or not, who knows.

      I don’t think they’ve actually answered where Gendry is yet. He definitely wasn’t at the parlay in KL. Not a good idea to bring a Baratheon around Cersei lest you wish to kill said Baratheon.

      Didn’t see him at the Wall when it came down, but didn’t see him on S.S. Boatsex either. My assumption is that he’s on the boat headed back to Winterfell with the rest, but can’t say that for sure yet.

        Quote  Reply

    241. Mr Derp: Not a good idea to bring a Baratheon around Cersei lest you wish to kill said Baratheon.

      Yeah, or Daenerys for that matter. If I had to guess, Davos hadn’t wanted “Clovis” to reveal his parentage to Jon not so much because he feared Jon’s reaction but out of concern about how Daenerys might react to The Usurper’s bastard son.

        Quote  Reply

    242. Mr Derp,

      ss boatsex indeed :p just like you ppl to assume that the u s navy must be involved. why wouldn’t it be the hms boatsex, or west/ess boatsex, or whatever rather than ss boatsex? :p :p

        Quote  Reply

    243. Ah yes, that’s right, Nutbar!Bran should know. Hopefully he tells someone without it necessary to specifically ask. 🙂

      I’ve been assuming that Gendry Maratheon returned with the ship to Castlevania and stayed there when the others went to Knot’s Landing. He joined to fight with Jon so I think he’ll stick with him until Winterfell (and D&D write him something specific to do).

        Quote  Reply

    244. Clob,

      Episode 3:

      Winterfell is suddenly attacked by the AOTD…

      Everyone looks to Bran like why the hell didn’t you say anything?

      Bran: Shrug. “You didn’t ask”.

      Collective eye-rolls and groans abound.

        Quote  Reply

    245. the unburdened:
      Mr Derp,

      ss boatsex indeed :p just like you ppl to assume that the u s navy must be involved. why wouldn’t it be the hms boatsex, or west/ess boatsex, or whatever rather than ss boatsex? :p :p

      What makes you think I’m American?

      Ok, yea, I’m American, lol.

        Quote  Reply

    246. Are they pulling the “Sansa is gonna betray Jon” AGAIN? Three seasons doing it. Com´on HBO marketing teams! Surely you can do better!

      Next promo put a shot of Jon in a deathly situation because we already know he´s gonna survive it.

        Quote  Reply

    247. This thread was much more entertaining to read than the actual clip, so I’m glad I finally made it through everything.

      To the peeps above, Gendry has to be with the boat on the way to Winterfell, just because I feel like they would’ve shown him on the Wall with Beric and Tormund if he was there, and he inevitably has to reunite with Arya again so taking him to Winterfell would be the most logical scenario.

      River,

      As to speculating on episode titles… I’m game. My best guesses for the season:

      1. (A Song of) Ice and Fire/ Reunion
      2. A Lion’s Oath/ The Lion and the Raven
      3. Winterfell
      4. The Queen’s Betrayal/ The King’s Justice
      5. The Long Night
      6. A Dream of Spring

      I feel like 3 and 6 are pretty strong guesses… others are obviously pretty big leaps. Episode 1 I feel very ambiguous about and episode 6 is obviously a fairly confident assumption.

        Quote  Reply

    248. I think they’ll use the titles, “Hearthbroken,” “Dragonheart,” “Winterhell,” “dakogon syt aōha ābrar,” “The Little Brother,” and “Dragon’s Landing” 😀

        Quote  Reply

    249. EPISODE I THE UNDEAD MENACE

      EPISODE II ATTACK OF THE WIGTHS

      EPISODE III REVENGE OF THE WALKERS

      EPISODE IV A NEW HOPE

      EPISODE V THE WOLVES STRIKE BACK

      EPISODE VI RETURN OF THE DRAGON

        Quote  Reply

    250. Since we’ve had several mentions of direwolves in this endless thread, I don’t suppose I somehow missed any production rumors from Calgary…

      <> I guess the dragons will be even fatter and tastier for the final season!

        Quote  Reply

    251. LadyGoodman,
      Unfortunately all of the wolves were tied up in filming season 12 of Heartland. Word is that the family friendly show is going to get bloody messy with a sequence similar to The Grey. Ty finds himself in another predicament while trying to save sick beavers in Banff National Park. 😉

      Seriously though, I don’t think there was any news related to that.

        Quote  Reply

    252. I watched it again with fresh eyes and I see a bit of the Jonsa vibe in that scene. Sorry not sorry lol. I don’t know why they’d want to give that impression though because I can’t see it happening.

        Quote  Reply

    253. Clob: Ah yes, that’s right, Nutbar!Bran should know. Hopefully he tells someone without it necessary to specifically ask.

      The big S8 shocker will be that there’s no spoken dialogue; Bran is going to narrate the rest of the story in a very long flashback.

        Quote  Reply

    254. Grail King,

      You’re right. Don’t know how I missed it first time around! The outstretched arms seemed to belong to someone with a larger body than Sansa’s tho…probably just camera angle.

        Quote  Reply

    255. Here’s how I think the Night King is killed in Kings Landing…

      The Night King is sitting on the Iron Throne – The Night King stands up and and his King’s Guard stabs him in the back with a Valyrian Steel dagger.

      Then Arya Stark takes off her mask and sits on the Iron Throne!!!!!!

        Quote  Reply

    256. anthony jordan:
      fdr,

      oh yeah sansa is definitely the younger more beautiful queen and as you said an alliance makes sense jon is a trueborn targ and sansa is a trueborn stark it will be rhaeagar and lyanna all over again except their marraige will bring the north and south together.thats ice and fire.the show will not end in a targ restoration

      Sansa and Jon won’t marry either in the show or the books. I know many people don’t like it, but it’s perfectly obvious that Jon and Dany will marry in the show (Jon won’t let her have a bastard, and yes she’s pregnant) and it’s highly probable this will happen in the books too, if they ever come. Don’t worry, it won’t last, either because of a Nissa-Nissa scenario (Dany’s Treason for Love?) or another suitably tragic scenario. If Sansa ends up married in the books ( Harry the Heir won’t go the distance) it will be either to Sweet Robin or Tyrion.

      Geez, if less than 2 seconds of footage generates this many posts so quick I shudder to think at what’ll happen after the first trailer! LOL

        Quote  Reply

    257. Ëonwë:
      EPISODE I THE UNDEAD MENACE

      EPISODE II ATTACK OF THE WIGTHS

      EPISODE III REVENGE OF THE WALKERS

      EPISODE IV A NEW HOPE

      EPISODE V THE WOLVES STRIKE BACK

      EPISODE VI RETURN OF THE DRAGON

      1. The Last Hero
      2. Three Heads of the Dragon
      3. Kings of Winter
      4. God’s Eye
      5. The Sword of the Morning
      6. A Dream of Spring

        Quote  Reply

    258. Dominic Matteo,

      i feel that her expression better reflects someone who is choosing their words wisely, rather than just blurting something out and be left feeling that they have contracted foot in mouth disease. i feel that she must have something to tell him.

        Quote  Reply

    259. viki: Really? I thought Bran would have become the 3ER even if he hadn’t been hurt, it was his destiny to become a greenseer in the great war to come, just like Dany had her destiny to give ‘birth’ to the dragons. Out of everyone in GOT, those two are the only two with magical destinies to fulfill (maybe Jon too, but not quite as magical)

      I always saw his wolf as more of a jump starter for his powers, not the fall… just like his other siblings gain similar though lesser abilities through their connection to their wolves (not in the show, but the books)… did I miss something?

      Thought it was his destiny, but the paralysis was kinda somehow part of that? Like he lost one ability, started to gain another…but even if he would’ve been an able-bodied raven, I feel like at this point he might be basically over and beyond that, absorbed as he is in the visions and not really being “Bran” anymore. I don’t think he’s like, coming up with ways to get back at Jaime or something, but more likely to have accepted that this was his path. ;p

        Quote  Reply

    260. (^ He sure took his sweet time telling his sisters the truth about Baelish, though. xD I figure his role in S8 will be more central and proactively useful.)

      I’ve always pictured Dany & Arya getting on well. =D
      Sansa on the other hand, well, who knows. 8/ Just read the Culturess article that asks, “Will Sansa betray Jon and flip to Team Cersei?” I dunno, are we still wondering that sort of thing by the final season? Is that part of what Sophie’s been teasing with her talk of betrayals? I see fans say things like, “I’m so tired of Sansa being in conflict with the ‘good guys’ and other women, I want to see her join forces with them and work together…” And I think, “Well, then, do you really like her all that much? Or just the person you wish she was? I can’t say I blame you; I’ve never liked her much and have most often just been frustrated with her!”

      Jonsa, oy…yeah, I can’t quite bring myself to dignify that with more of a response than to say that imagining a sibling relationship turning into a cousin romance is pukier than Jon/Dany (which I also don’t ship.) But at least they had no notion of being at all related. There’s nothing to back that strange ship up, anyway, if anyone is actually legitimately serious about it. Of course they were going to give us a little “nothing” clip as the first glimpse of the season. It’s still sweet and intriguing for what it is. Feels like a probable assumption that Sansa’s glare would be directed at Jon’s new entourage and/or Dany in particular, but it *could* be anything…just looking up, thinking, gazing at someone else, expressing concern about something…or simply having a case of RBF (Resting B!tch-Face) that’s milder than Cersei’s, but still there. XD

        Quote  Reply

    261. Ten Bears:
      River,

      If they really want to troll us and get us hyped for the prequel, they could title S8e6 “The Long Night.”

      And it will surely be a long, long night before the prequel arrives.

        Quote  Reply

    262. Jaehaerys:
      River,

      As to speculating on episode titles… I’m game.My best guesses for the season:

      1.(A Song of) Ice and Fire/ Reunion
      2.A Lion’s Oath/ The Lion and the Raven
      3.Winterfell
      4.The Queen’s Betrayal/ The King’s Justice
      5.The Long Night
      6.A Dream of Spring

      I feel like 3 and 6 are pretty strong guesses… others are obviously pretty big leaps.Episode 1 I feel very ambiguous about and episode 6 is obviously a fairly confident assumption.

      I too would agree there’s a strong chance that S8E3 will be Winterfell centric, and it will be a heart breaker of an episode, more like “The Door” part II. They might end the series with ‘a dream of spring,’ I prefer ‘a game of thrones’ to bookend the series, but that is a long shot since the show is called game of thrones. Why is your episode 2, a lion’s oath? is that cause of Jaime? I’m assuming Bran’s the raven right?

        Quote  Reply

    263. You think we will get confirmation with the first full trailer than Jack? I am guessing that’s November at the earliest.

        Quote  Reply

    264. Eonwe:
      Pigeon,

      Direwolves went into extintion 65 millions years ago.

      that must have been really tiny dire wolves… actually, they quit around 10’000 years ago.

        Quote  Reply

    265. River: And it will surely be a long, long night before the prequel arrives.

      Just some written ‘out loud’ brainstorming of mine after reading that line…
      If the pilot is good enough to get a greenlight for series from HBO right away I wouldn’t be surprised if they premiere in a shorter time frame from S8 than we’ll have waiting for S8. This wait is going to probably be at least 20 months!! It will also depend on WHEN they actually film the pilot. Haven’t we heard later this fall but then perhaps early next year? GoT was greenlit less than five months from starting pilot filming and premiered thirteen months later. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s possible the series/season is ordered even before GoT concludes and already be moving into production. That’s an optimistic point of view with everything going swimmingly of course. 😀

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    266. River: I too would agree there’s a strong chance that S8E3 will be Winterfell centric, and it will be a heart breaker of an episode

      I was mostly joking with my episode titles a bit earlier in the thread, but not quite as much with “Winterhell.” I figure since some shit is probably going to go down it will look more like Hot Pie’s name for it than the actual. 🙂

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    267. Shelle,

      When did Sansa not side with the good guys, when did she betray anyone for you to be sick of her betrayals ??? Sophie said that about the entire season not her character.

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    268. Clob,

      I actually wouldn’t be surprised with Winterhell. I could also see Winter Fell, just because I think the castle was named after the first Long Night with winter “falling” there.

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    269. Nariman:
      Shelle,

      When did Sansa not side with the good guys, when did she betray anyone for you to be sick of her betrayals ??? Sophie said that about the entire season not her character.

      You know, she is CLEARLY planning to betray her family to side with the woman who desperately wants to torture and kill her, the woman who let her dad die, who killed her wolf, who let her be tormented for years by her deranged son, who constantly belittled her and destroyed her childhood dreams. Doesn’t everyone see it? That character from S1 has clearly had zero character development and is still the same little girl.

      Like, people forget she was the first Stark who gave a shit about reclaiming Winterfell and her homeland. She’s suddenly going to throw that work under the bus for…. what exactly? Being appointed lady of the North, something she rejected when offered by Jon?

      A certain segment just holds and will always hold irrational hatred for Sansa lol. The fact people believe she’s going to team with Cersei is honestly rib cracking considering she’s the only one who sees her as a threat right now.

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    270. BeardedOnion,

      I agree with this, but I also find it interesting because at the top of this thread you stated that Sansa won’t like Dany because of trust issues. If Sansa has gained the character development that you claim then it shouldn’t take long for her to take to Dany rather than the opposite. I think at first, you will be correct though. They will and should see her as a threat without question. However, I doubt it will take long for them to warm up to the dragon queen once they find out that Dany is trustworthy and has their best interests at heart. At least, that’s my take. We shall find out in….hmmm..only about 8 months, lol.

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    271. Mr Derp:
      BeardedOnion,

      I agree with this, but I also find it interesting because at the top of this thread you stated that Sansa won’t like Dany because of trust issues.If Sansa has gained the character development that you claim then it shouldn’t take long for her to take to Dany rather than the opposite.I think at first, you will be correct though.They will and should see her as a threat without question.However, I doubt it will take long for them to warm up to the dragon queen once they find out that Dany is trustworthy and has their best interests at heart.At least, that’s my take.We shall find out in….hmmm..only about 8 months, lol.

      I believe Dany has given Sansa legit reasons to be wary of her. She’s brought violent nomads to her lands with short notice and her presence makes the North and Vale highly toxic, for arguably good reason. Plus, the news of her burning Sam’s family for not bending the knee will probably not go down well.

      Honestly, I do think Dany would love Sansa & Arya and that they would love her if preexisting conditions weren’t here and if the upcoming revelation wouldn’t spoil everything. Sansa and Dany have lots in common and seem like they would be great friends, but I don’t think this will be the case because of the reasons above.

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    272. BeardedOnion,

      I’m honestly so sick of some people in the fandom who have turned Sansa into the new skyler white, she’s so hated without any reasons, and the betrayal angle has always been ridiculous if you actually pay attention to what she says. it’s also rather funny that in the end Jon was the one to technically betray the north.

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    273. BeardedOnion: She’s brought violent nomads to her lands with short notice and her presence makes the North and Vale highly toxic, for arguably good reason. Plus, the news of her burning Sam’s family for not bending the knee will probably not go down well.

      My personal belief is that there’s no time for that. At least, there won’t be any time for that once the AOTD comes knocking on Winterfell’s doorstep. I think Sansa will approve of Dany once she sees for herself that Dany will risk everything to protect the North from the AOTD as well as Cersei. She’s already risked everything to prove that the AOTD is real. I’m also not sure that Sansa will care about what happened to the Tarly’s. Especially when you consider they betrayed Olenna Tyrell to fight for Cersei, Sansa’s #1 enemy. I also think Arya would take to Dany pretty quickly, especially when you think back to season 2 during her conversations with Tywin about the Dance of Dragons.

      How do you ultimately see all of this playing out if Sansa and Dany will never get along or establish any trust with each other? Do you foresee betrayal on the horizon?

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    274. Nariman: if you actually pay attention to what she says

      But what fun would that be? Sansa is an easy target for fans to hate – she was initially presented as an unlikable stereotype of a shallow, self-absorbed, and above all stupid girl. And let’s face it: the show has gone out of its way for years to suggest to viewers that they should mistrust Sansa, and many people are all too happy to oblige.

      It’s interesting to compare the current level of dislike and mistrust of Sansa among fans with how many people (myself included) are willing to believe that redemption (to one extent or another) is possible for Jaime Lannister or The Hound. I do think some of that is because the show has been more direct in showing The Hound’s “rebirth” and changed beliefs, while keeping Sansa’s thoughts and motives more opaque, because they’re counting on the drama they can create that way. But the contrast makes me wonder if people in general are less able/willing to modify perceptions of females who initially give negative impressions. In GoT at least I can’t think of any female character besides Sansa who has had a “redemption” arc – anyone?

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    275. Mr Derp,

      they all ultimately get along with danareys after a short grrr period. but i am fascinated how everyone thinks that arya will take to danareys like a duck to water. lol , it seems bizarre to me. arya is much more likely to take to someone like the waif naturally if it wasn’t for the fact that the waif had it in for her. but danareays head has far to much much girly crap in it to keep arya interested. danareys wil attract missendai and sansa with all her girly crap. but she will not hold arya’s interest for long. maisy williams might be interested in all that crap but arya most definitely is not. she would much rather discuss the best way to sharpen a dagger than, ‘how is he in bed, giggle giggle.’

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    276. the unburdened,

      I couldn’t disagree more. Arya has a respect and admiration for strong female characters and Dany is a strong female character. It doesn’t have to get any more complicated than that.

      Especially when Arya finds out that Dany was willing to sacrifice everything to save Jon from certain death.

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    277. Gwidhiel,

      Why would Sansa need a “redemption” arc ??
      And I don’t agree with what you said, if you actually consider what she does from her prospective there’s nothing vague about her actions, she just plays her cards to her chest and has a lot of trust issues. However when you consider her actions she always tries to do what she thinks is good. If you mean the campaign for season 7 then it was all obviously hype and trying to get the fans exited. It’s just that she comes across as in the way for jon snow to be badass and she often voices her opinion without holding back, you can’t really have a female character oppose the male hero, case in point,Skyler White.

      I do however agree with what you say about the fandom’s perception of female characters, if they don’t make mistakes they’re mary sues, if they make mistakes they’ll never be forgiven for them.

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    278. No, thank you.

      Please, no more people need to join The Inexplicable Daenerys Targaryen Fan Club.

      Surely some characters in-universe that aren’t moustache-twirling villains should be allowed to not think the sun shines out of her backside.

      We’ve already had Tyrion, Jorah, Varys, Jon (apparently) and many others fawning over her with little substantive on-screen explanation.

      Frankly, I think the Stark sisters are the prime candidates for founding the I Don’t Trust But Will Humour Daenerys Targaryen In The Meantime As Long As She Remains Reasonable And It Benefits My Family Club.

      Hopefully Jaime would be the third member. And Sam could be an honorary member, since she’s already killed his family.

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    279. the unburdened: arya most definitely is not. she would much rather discuss the best way to sharpen a dagger than, ‘how is he in bed, giggle giggle.’

      Nobody is suggesting that Arya might be drawn to Daenerys because of those sorts of things, nor that they’ll have ‘girly talks.’ She’s likely to initially see the conquering warrior woman mounted on a dragon that will remind her of the stories of Rhaenys and Visenya she has had so much adoration for. Like Arya, Daenerys is a “doer” more so than a talker. She’s going to want to be involved in the actual fight and Arya should respect that.

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    280. Mr Derp,

      And also I’ve said this in an earlier post, Bran should be able to explain why Jon ‘bend’ his knee to Dany. He’s a walking search engine, he has access to all information from the past. It would totally be ludicrous for Bran to just let the infighting and distrust persist while the NK and his army continue to add new members by attacking the northern houses one by one.

      How stupid or how prideful are these northern lords to rebuff Daenerys and her army and her 2 full grown dragons? They wouldn’t stand a chance against the AoTD without her, so for them to be prideful at this point would be foolish, very much so foolish.

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    281. Mr Derp,

      It really should be more complicated than that. The characters and their relationships ring increasingly hollow when they’re based on such a brief and superficial basis.

      Arya liking Daenerys simply because she admires “strong women” and appreciates her saving Jon’s life undermines the depth of her character and increasingly renders Daenerys one-dimensional too.

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    282. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I’m basing all of this on where I think D&D will go with it. It has nothing to do with what I want or don’t want.

      Dany saved Jon’s life and yes, she is a “strong woman” in a time and era when that’s ridiculously uncommon. Those are very good reason to like Dany, not dislike her.

      I would argue it’s just as one-dimensional for Arya to dislike Dany despite the fact that she’s there to help them. There’s things to like about her and there’s things to be wary of as well. It’s not just one or the other as you seem to be suggesting, which is rather one-dimensional.

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    283. Nariman: Why would Sansa need a “redemption” arc ??

      Well, let’s just stick with show!Sansa (although my view of her is certainly informed by book!Sansa):
      1. She was just in general a bratty, unhelpful sister to Arya in S1.
      2. She failed to stand up to Joffrey when he was threatening Micah in by the river (I’d have thought much better of her if she’d even just run to get adult help – I don’t actually blame her for not intervening in that situation, but she just stood by and whined at everyone).
      3. When directly questioned by Robert and Ned about what had gone down between Joffrey and Arya, she claimed amnesia (and yep, I can understand the pressure she was under, but a) there still was an ugly truth to be told, no matter how difficult, and b) that episode should have been enough to put her off Joffrey for good. But she was still clinging to her Princess/Queen dreams.)
      4. She initially fangirled the heck out of Cersei, even after C had demanded that Lady be put down in Nymeria’s stead. It took more than it should have for Sansa to recognize that the Lannisters were malevolent, despite their high positions and physical beauty.

      I found her frustrating and insufferable in S1. S2-3 I concurred with Varys’s assessment of her “a babe in the woods.” I started to find her interesting S4, and I certainly didn’t hold her accountable for what Littlefinger did to her crazy Aunt Lysa, nor even for covering for him by lying to the Lords of the Vale about what had happened.

      And after that, as far as I’m concerned there’s nothing to accuse her of (lots of others disagree, citing her failure to tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale in S6 – and that’s reasonable, it’s just not how I see it).

      It’s not that Sansa has never done anything wrong – she has. But it’s my view that she has more than atoned for her early misdeeds/youthful mistakes, and has been very steady in her commitment to her family and The North. Not everyone agrees with that.

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    284. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: Arya liking Daenerys simply because she admires “strong women” and appreciates her saving Jon’s life undermines the depth of her character and increasingly renders Daenerys one-dimensional too.

      Once understanding and past the confusion why Jon would bend the knee to Daenerys does Arya have any better or deeper reason to DISlike her? She was not the one that killed the Starks no more than Ned is at fault for Rhaegar. She’s come to join the fight to save Winterfell, their lives and the rest of The North, so what real reason should she have?

      Perhaps the stance one takes boils down yet again to whether the VIEWER likes or dislikes a character.

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    285. Mr Derp: Dany saved Jon’s life

      She did? I thought it was Benjen who saved Jon. I thought it was weird as f*ck that they had Benjen save Jon in that ridiculous, misbegotten subplot, after straining belief with Daenerys & dragons’ miraculous in-the-nick-of-time arrival. But that’s how they decided to play it, and I assume that was done for some reason besides keeping us at the stupid frozen lake for another 5 minutes after Dany & co.’s departure.

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    286. Gwidhiel,

      Lol, k, let me re-phrase…Dany RISKED everything to save Jon’s life, but he refused because his savior complex kicked into overdrive as per usual.

      It doesn’t change what she did for him.

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    287. Mr Derp:
      Gwidhiel,

      Lol, k, let me re-phrase…Dany RISKED everything to save Jon’s life, but he refused because his savior complex kicked into overdrive as per usual.

      Ah, well when you put it that way, I agree. 🙂

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    288. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I concur. Neither of the Stark sisters has any reason to become Dany’s fangirl: Sansa has a lot of political concerns, in case of Arya it should be more personal (in her eyes no woman will be good enough for her beloved Jon), but one way or another both sisters are primed to become overprotetive and seek to save their naive brother from this self-entitled foreign dragon whore.

      However, I expect that to serve Dany’s character development more than that of the Satrk sisters. In other words, disapproving sisters will serve as a challenge to Dany – the vedy least, she has to learn to deal with disapproval otherwise than by means of dragonfire. But there might be more to that, too. IMO, plotwise Dany needs some legit reason not to take Jon’s true parentage revelation for granted. And here it is: Jon’s parentage reveal will come from the man, whose father and brother Dany has just burned alive + there will be two disapproving Stark sisters. Dany will have every reason to think that the whole story about Jon being the true heir to the IT has been invented by Sam and the Starks to put her down and do something impulsive.

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    289. Mr Derp,

      Not really.

      Arya disliking Daenerys despite her professed admiration for the likes of Visenya Targaryen and her love for Jon, would make her a more complicated character. Placing her experiences, her cynicism, her assessment of the circumstances, etc. ahead of her own personal feelings.

      She didn’t even trust her own bloody sister, despite the fact that Jon apparently did. For her to abandon any character depth the moment Daenerys walks onto the scene would be a tragedy. But one which D&D may be inclined to make and some people are apparently desperate to see.

      And the more people who fall into line to worship Daenerys, the more she becomes this one-dimensional goddess who everybody inevitably ends up adoring. If it’s a foregone conclusion that Sansa and Arya (and Sam and Jaime and the Northern Lords and so on) will end up liking Daenerys then where’s the drama? Just release the battle sequences and a picture of Daenerys on the Iron Throne and forget about the rest.

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    290. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: She didn’t even trust her own bloody sister, despite the fact that Jon apparently did.

      And yet Arya now trusts Sansa after a period of getting to know each other again. Again, there’s no reason why this couldn’t also happen with Arya and Dany.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: Placing her experiences, her cynicism, her assessment of the circumstances, etc. ahead of her own personal feelings.

      Exactly. Her own personal feelings would probably be to dislike Dany at first, but if she puts her own personal feelings aside as you put it, she should do whats right for the greater good and team up with Dany since she’s there to help them.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: And the more people who fall into line to worship Daenerys, the more she becomes this one-dimensional goddess who everybody inevitably ends up adoring. If it’s a foregone conclusion that Sansa and Arya (and Sam and Jaime and the Northern Lords and so on) will end up liking Daenerys then where’s the drama? Just release the battle sequences and a picture of Daenerys on the Iron Throne and forget about the rest.

      I get what youre saying, but no one needs to worship her. That’s an exaggeration. I’m not talking about worship or fangirling. I’m talking about respect, and I don’t see why Arya/Sansa/Dany wouldn’t eventually get to that point. Mature people work together for the greater good despite differences. I think these characters are mature enough to do that. Not give in to petty b.s. while the AOTD is knocking at your door.

      I think you’re seriously underestimating what D&D may have in store for us in season 8. There doesn’t need to be betrayal after betrayal in order for season 8 to be epic. I’m sure there will be plenty of drama to be had. And honestly, that’s not the kind of drama I’d want anyway. We’ve already had season after season of personal squabbles. I’m ready for them to put that stuff to bed and kick some ass together.

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    291. Gwidhiel: Well, let’s just stick with show!Sansa (although my view of her is certainly informed by book!Sansa):
      1. She was just in general a bratty, unhelpful sister to Arya in S1.
      2. She failed to stand up to Joffrey when he was threatening Micah in by the river (I’d have thought much better of her if she’d even just run to get adult help – I don’t actually blame her for not intervening in that situation, but she just stood by and whined at everyone).
      3. When directly questioned by Robert and Ned about what had gone down between Joffrey and Arya, she claimed amnesia (and yep, I can understand the pressure she was under, but a) there still was an ugly truth to be told, no matter how difficult, and b) that episode should have been enough to put her off Joffrey for good. But she was still clinging to her Princess/Queen dreams.)
      4. She initially fangirled the heck out of Cersei, even after C had demanded that Lady be put down in Nymeria’s stead. It took more than it should have for Sansa to recognize that the Lannisters were malevolent, despite their high positions and physical beauty.

      I found her frustrating and insufferable in S1. S2-3 I concurred with Varys’s assessment of her “a babe in the woods.” I started to find her interesting S4, and I certainly didn’t hold her accountable for what Littlefinger did to her crazy Aunt Lysa, nor even for covering for him by lying to the Lords of the Vale about what had happened.

      And after that, as far as I’m concerned there’s nothing to accuse her of (lots of others disagree, citing her failure to tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale in S6 – and that’s reasonable, it’s just not how I see it).

      It’s not that Sansa has never done anything wrong – she has. But it’s my view that she has more than atoned for her early misdeeds/youthful mistakes, and has been very steady in her commitment to her family and The North. Not everyone agrees with that.

      I like this comment and agree with it 100% sansa was a shit, and then she grew up. just like we all did.

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    292. Clob,

      If everything I’ve written is invalid because of an alleged bias, then so is everything you write. Trying to dismiss people’s opinions on this basis is cheap and unnecessary.

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    293. Jaehaerys:
      Clob,

      I actually wouldn’t be surprised with Winterhell.I could also see Winter Fell, just because I think the castle was named after the first Long Night with winter “falling” there.

      Primary meaning for the ‘fell’ in Winterfell is most likely the geographic definition:

      “A fell (from Old Norse fell, fjall, “mountain”) is a high and barren landscape feature, such as a mountain range or moor-covered hills. The term is most often employed in Fennoscandia, the Isle of Man, parts of Northern England, and Scotland.”

      (Wikipedia)

      Secondary meaning is most likely the adjective ‘fell’ meaning ‘deadly.’ This would be a neat shout-out to Tolkien:

      ““The Brandybucks were blowing the Horn-call of Buckland, that had not been sounded for a hundred years, not since the white wolves came in the Fell Winter [Third Age, 2911-2912], when the Brandywine was frozen over.”

      (The Fellowship of the Ring, “A Knife in the Dark”)

      ‘Fell’ as the past tense of the verb ‘fall’ is at best the tertiary meaning, IMO.

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    294. Mr Derp,

      Obviously, they’re all going to have to work together. The original argument was why Arya would supposedly take to Daenerys so readily.

      Neither Sansa nor Arya needs to like, trust or even get along with Daenerys for them to work together against the AotD. And as far as I’m concerned the characters and the drama will be better served if they don’t.

      Not least because, with only 6 episodes remaining, any positive relationships developed between strangers are going to feel tenuous and superficial at this late stage.

      The fact that we’re talking about relationships with Daenerys, a character whom people have been falling over themselves to worship and adore for 7 seasons already, just exacerbates the potential for cheapening the characters’ relationships unnecessarily.

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    295. Inga,

      I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I also think the Sam/Daenerys issue has the potential to undermine Jon and Daenerys’ relationship one way or the other. Your suggestion is an interesting take on the situation.

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    296. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      No, thank you.

      Please, no more people need to join The Inexplicable Daenerys Targaryen Fan Club.

      Surely some characters in-universe that aren’t moustache-twirling villains should be allowed to not think the sun shines out of her backside.

      We’ve already had Tyrion, Jorah, Varys, Jon (apparently) and many others fawning over her with little substantive on-screen explanation.

      Frankly, I think the Stark sisters are the prime candidates for founding the I Don’t Trust But Will Humour Daenerys Targaryen In The Meantime As Long As She Remains Reasonable And It Benefits My Family Club.

      Hopefully Jaime would be the third member. And Sam could be an honorary member, since she’s already killed his family.

      Two thumbs up for this. And if Bran sees all and knows all, he will be able to notify the rest of his clan that Dany’s motivation to help the Northerners against the AotD is not purely altruistic – that her whole cause is much more driven by her own sense of entitlement/destiny to rule Westeros. Not that a wary alliance shouldn’t be forged until the immediate threat to all humanity is eliminated, but with emphasis on the ‘wary.’ The Stark sisters would be wise not to share all their thoughts with Dany – especially if she seems to be leading Jon around by the nose. I for one want to see Jon set some boundaries on their relationship and continue to exercise his leadership skills. And Arya should be no more worshipful of Dany than she is of Brienne.

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    297. Inga: Dany will have every reason to think that the whole story about Jon being the true heir to the IT has been invented by Sam and the Starks to put her down and do something impulsive.

      That’s an interesting idea.

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    298. Clob:
      Once again some of the phrasing being used on the topic is oozing with bias and evident individual character hate.

      Haha, the two common suspects are at it again 🙂 #sorrynotsorry

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    299. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Clob,

      If everything I’ve written is invalid because of an alleged bias, then so is everything you write. Trying to dismiss people’s opinions on this basis is cheap and unnecessary.

      Nope, I do not believe so. That was a typical defensive response, but in this case I was not “trying to dismiss (your) opinion,” but rather stating that you’re presenting it with language that is very much ‘oozing’ in said manner. I, along with Mr Derp, River… were giving reasonable scenarios how the two could find friendship and respect that are not out of line with their personalities and the circumstances that they’re likely to be in during the season. There’s not a whole lot bias or anything predetermined about the characters in there. You’re not willing to entertain them nor even acknowledge that these unions in scenes could even make sense. Without seeing what and how scene discussions take place you claim it would be character assassination and go directly to the, “And the more people who fall into line to worship Daenerys, the more she becomes this one-dimensional goddess who everybody inevitably ends up adoring.” That’s a pretty scornful manner to address a character, whom at this time is still on the “good side” of the story at this time. One that also seemed to be seeing things a little more broadly at the end of S7 than her previous narrow focus.

      I wasn’t solely addressing you by the way. Inga sounded like Cersei or Randyll Tarly with, “one way or another both sisters are primed to become overprotective and seek to save their naive brother from this self-entitled foreign dragon whore.” 😛

      I wasn’t saying you can’t write what you want to be argumentative or get on your bad side, just making a comment that the method was putting some pretty heavy hate-weight on a character. 🙂

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    300. Clob:
      Once again some of the phrasing being used on the topic is oozing with bias and evident individual character hate. 😛

      House Snark is indeed powerful around here. 😜

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    301. Inga:
      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I concur. Neither of the Stark sisters has any reason to become Dany’s fangirl: Sansa has a lot of political concerns, in case of Arya it should be more personal (in her eyes no woman will be good enough for her beloved Jon), but one way or another both sisters are primed to become overprotetive and seek to save their naive brother from this self-entitled foreign dragon whore.

      However, I expect that to serve Dany’s character development more than that of the Satrk sisters. In other words, disapproving sisters will serve as a challenge to Dany – the vedy least, she has to learn to deal with disapproval otherwise than by means of dragonfire. But there might be more to that, too. IMO, plotwise Dany needs some legit reason not to take Jon’s true parentage revelation for granted. And here it is: Jon’s parentage reveal will come from the man, whose father and brother Dany has just burned alive + there will be two disapproving Stark sisters. Dany will have every reason to think that the whole story about Jon being the true heir to the IT has been invented by Sam and the Starks to put her down and do something impulsive.

      This all makes a great deal of sense to me. We’ve had endless examples of other characters throwing over their previous agendas to take up Dany’s cause. It’s high time that Dany be expected to accommodate the priorities and concerns of others. And it shouldn’t take an existential threat to all sentient life forms, or an evil as gross and egregious as mass enslavement, to get her to consider that what someone else wants to achieve may have validity equal to what she wants to achieve. It’s her tendency toward megalomania that makes those of us who don’t especially like her…not especially like her. I’d like to see a Dany by the end who, like book!Dany, longs for the little house with the red door and the lemon tree as much as she feels that she must ‘be a dragon.’ That would be character development.

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    302. Mr Derp,

      We’ve already had season after season of personal squabbles. I’m ready for them to put that stuff to bed and kick some ass together.”
      ———–
      Amen. 👸🏻🧝🏻‍♀️

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    303. Upon arriving at Winterfell, Dany should just be like: Hey y’all I lost one of my dragons because I had to save Jon and his peers at that frozen lake where they were surrounded by WW. I didn’t have to but I did. Also I’m here with an army and my 2 other dragons, my children really to risk everything to fight for y’all and save your asses. You guys decide, if you wish well I could just go back to Essos and leave y’all here to die so no biggie, your choice not mine 😀 Dany #truthteller #IGotNoTime4ThisShizz

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    304. Gwidhiel: In GoT at least I can’t think of any female character besides Sansa who has had a “redemption” arc – anyone?

      Osha, who started out ready to kill Bran and quickly became his protector. But she’s not a major character.

      I suppose some would argue that Melisandre ‘redeemed’ herself by rezzing Jon, but I for one still find her pretty hateful. No sign of remorse for all the people she burned at the stake – only regret that she picked the wrong Azor Ahai.

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    305. George: 1. The Last Hero
      2. Three Heads of the Dragon
      3. Kings of Winter
      4. God’s Eye
      5. The Sword of the Morning
      6. A Dream of Spring

      I think the Season 8 episode 5 title will be – The Many-Faced God

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    306. Firannion: Osha, who started out ready to kill Bran and quickly became his protector. But she’s not a major character.

      Ah, thank you! I really did wrack my brain trying to think of one, but neglected to hit on Osha. But yeah, not a major character.

      Firannion: I suppose some would argue that Melisandre ‘redeemed’ herself by rezzing Jon, but I for one still find her pretty hateful. No sign of remorse for all the people she burned at the stake – only regret that she picked the wrong Azor Ahai.

      Yeah, I’d considered and discarded Melisandre as an example of a redeemed female character for that reason.

      Here’s a S8 imagination challenge: what would Cersei have to do to be redeemed? Is it even possible? (Note: this is NOT a prediction, nor even wishful thinking. Just a thought exercise).

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    307. I see people saying how drama between the Stark girls and Dany can’t happen because the AOTD will be knocking soon, but they forget there is more to this story than that and that the showdown with Cersei is likely to provide the drama the foundation it really needs to start off.

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    308. Season 8 Episodes 1-6

      1. 3 Headed Dragon meets the 3 eyed Raven
      2. Redemption
      3. The Great War
      4. House Starkgaryen
      5. The Many-Faced God
      6. A Dream of Spring

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    309. Gwidhiel: Here’s a S8 imagination challenge: what would Cersei have to do to be redeemed? Is it even possible?

      Fun challenge!

      Presuming that you mean TV!Cersei:

      D & D must’ve had some reason to insert that speech in Season 1 where Cersei claims to have had a black-haired son with Robert, who died in infancy. Leaving aside the facts that this does not happen in the books; that it may have been intended simply to plant in viewers’ minds the contradiction of Baratheons all being ‘black of hair’ while her children were all blonde; that it doesn’t jibe with Maggy the Frog’s prediction that she will have three children; and that she may simply have been lying for reasons left on the cutting-room floor…

      There’s a popular fan hypothesis (I won’t dignify it as a theory) that Cersei is Gendry’s biological mother – that she actually sent the baby away to be raised in poverty, rather than have him killed, perhaps having a dead infant substituted (something that Varys’ little birds might’ve gotten wind of, via a midwife or handmaid). I never bought this notion, personally. For one thing, it wouldn’t make sense that she would send the Gold Cloaks to kill Gendry when she found out that he had fled the city, after going to some trouble to keep him alive. In any case she clearly was aware of his existence, at least as one of Robert’s by-blows. (I’m not 100% sure that we know that it was Cersei who sent them, since it was supposedly Joffrey who ordered the executions of the other bastards.)

      But…in the off chance that this fan hypothesis is true…Cersei finding out that Gendry lives, and is fighting on the Stark side, and her having a change of heart (perhaps as a result of miscarrying her likely-last-ever pregnancy), being willing to acknowledge him as the rightful heir, even if only to counter Jon and Dany’s claims to the throne…that might qualify as a redemption of sorts. Especially if they were given a scene together where, to her own surprise, she softens and acts maternal. She might even become convinced that acknowledging Gendry would be a way of undoing Maggy’s prophecy.

      Okay, it’s a stretch.

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    310. Firannion: There’s a popular fan hypothesis (I won’t dignify it as a theory) that Cersei is Gendry’s biological mother – that she actually sent the baby away to be raised in poverty, rather than have him killed, perhaps having a dead infant substituted (something that Varys’ little birds might’ve gotten wind of, via a midwife or handmaid).

      Whoa, I had never heard that one before! I … don’t understand why she is thought to have maybe done this? Is the thought that she didn’t want a child fathered by Robert, that she only wanted to raise children fathered by Jaime? I can’t wrap my head around this idea.

      Firannion: But…in the off chance that this fan hypothesis is true…Cersei finding out that Gendry lives, and is fighting on the Stark side, and her having a change of heart (perhaps as a result of miscarrying her likely-last-ever pregnancy), being willing to acknowledge him as the rightful heir, even if only to counter Jon and Dany’s claims to the throne…that might qualify as a redemption of sorts. Especially if they were given a scene together where, to her own surprise, she softens and acts maternal. She might even become convinced that acknowledging Gendry would be a way of undoing Maggy’s prophecy.

      Well, wow. Huh. I myself have been very puzzled about Cersei’s surprise pregnancy. I guess this could intersect with it in some kind of narratively satisfying way …?

      I posed the question without really having any answer of my own to it. Let’s see … the first thing that comes to mind is that Cersei could have Euron killed (because he definitely needs to go). That wouldn’t be redeeming though. OK, I myself am not convinced that the NK will make it all the way to King’s Landing (not saying it won’t happen just saying it’s not a sure thing in my mind). BUT if he did make it down there (perhaps just on wight Viserion, leaving the AotD and WW up North), what if Cersei & Qyburn end up being the ones to defeat the NK/Viserion with dragonglass-tipped scorpion arrows? I think we’d need to pat her on the back for that one. Still not sure that would be enough to redeem her, though, because I think that – as you pointed out above, Firannion – a person has to recognize how they were wrong and show remorse for what they’d done. And I just can’t imagine Cersei achieving that.

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    311. Firannion,

      Ah how about this: if Cersei intervened somehow to save Tyrion – from who I don’t know – that might be a redeeming act. With all of the nasty, evil things she has done/tried to do to Tyrion over the last 7 seasons, acting to save him and acknowledging him as her brother would perhaps, ever-so-slightly, redeem Cersei.

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    312. Ten Bears,

      Keep ’em coming! I’m closing my data files for the evening and stepping away from my computer for a while but I expect an Arya avalanche (I forget what ASNWAP stands for, exactly) to drown out any flaming embers from this thread.

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    313. Gwidhiel:
      Firannion,

      Ah how about this: if Cersei intervened somehow to save Tyrion – from who I don’t know – that might be a redeeming act. With all of the nasty, evil things she has done/tried to do to Tyrion over the last 7 seasons, acting to save him and acknowledging him as her brother would perhaps, ever-so-slightly, redeem Cersei.

      For me, that would go a long way. She brushed it off when Jaime informed her that Tyrion had no role in Joffrey’s death, but she’s had a little more time to think about that now. She may never forgive Tyrion for killing Tywin, of course. But she also had mixed feelings about her father, who treated her as having no value beyond chattel to be traded in a politically advantageous marriage. Probably had her own moments when she wished she had the nerve to put a bolt or two in him.

      If Jaime dies before Cersei, I suppose it’s conceivable that she could dredge up some familial feeling for the last male Lannister. True redemption at this point would require her to make some sort of voluntary sacrifice, though, I think. A literal Pyrrhic victory over the dead swarming King’s Landing by blowing up the last of her wildfire caches, knowing that it’s her own final bow, might be the best we can hope for from Cersei.

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    314. Gwidhiel,

      ASNAWP = “Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess” was coined by talvikorppi as a sarcastic reference, but I (and several others) liked it so much we adopted it as an acronym for our favorite character. 👸🏻

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    315. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      BTW, I do apologize to you, the 20th good man of Ramsay (and others) for (somewhat) unintentionally stirring the pot in what was mostly just a bit of a heated debate, though civil. Occasionally I can’t help myself and throw out little snide remarks like I did. We’ve been “on the same side” plenty of times so I know you’re not ALL bad. HA!! j/k 🙂