It’s not much but you know what? WE’LL TAKE IT! Tonight HBO unveiled a new “Coming Soon” video with snippets of upcoming series and new seasons of their shows, including Game of Thrones! Coming in 2019, in case we had started to doubt.
The video includes a fair bit of Game of Thrones footage but most of it is actually from season 7. There is however a quick shot at the 1:10 mark of Jon and Sansa that looks to be new.
So we’ve got a somber Stark family hug, which gives us something to speculate on! Finallllllllllly!
The rest of the video features shots of Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Arya, Gendry, and Davos from season 7 scenes. The quick blur of shots in the rest of the video unfortunately don’t hold anything interesting but watch it again and feel the hype!
Finally! This is probably the most non-spoilerly thing they could’ve showed us. This or a shot of Cersei in KL.
But I really hope they’re not doing the whole “will Sansa betray Jon” thing again.
Wonder if this is from when Aegon arrives back at Winterfell for the first time since last season or is it from later in S8?
I watched the video just before coming here, and that scene stood out to me as well as being new. So sneaky HBO, inserting that in there amongst all the season 7 footage. 🙂
sweet
Jay Targ,
Feel like she’s seeing Dany for first time.
Also, regarding the premiere and Emmy eligibility James Hibberd just said…
“GoT returns for its final six episodes that will air during the first half of 2019. There have been reports over the weekend claiming the show’s return has been “delayed” to mid-2019 making not eligible for Emmys until 2020. Rest assured, “first half of 2019” means exactly that, and HBO expects the show will air all its episodes in time for the 2019 Emmy eligibility cut off.”
Jack Bauer 24,
Given that he thinks that’s a bunch of new footage in the video including Gendry and Jaime from s7, I’m going to take what he says with a grain of salt.
I have a very strong feeling Sansa and Arya won’t like Dany, especially since they will have extreme trust issues now (for good reason).
The parentage reveal is going to cause big problems for the camp.
My God, I’m really digging jon snows new look.
that Beard and hair is a 10/10!!!!!
The True Detective teaser tonight also said it returns in January. I was expecting that they would put it back in that window. Assuming they have 8 episodes again I would say that means GoT would then not premiere before TD is finished in mid-March. I’m still looking at mid-April.
They showed Big Little Lies as well, which could premiere after TD. That would put GoT even further out.
It’s possible, but I’m going to guess that it won’t. TD had an individual trailer with January specified so that appears certain. BLL just wrapped on their filming as well. For the hell of it though… If TD premieres Jan. 6th with 8 episodes that leaves seven open weeks between its finale and April 21st (my target date). BLL season 1 was seven episodes. That’s a tight schedue to plan but could work without skipped weeks.
Very possible, but I’m thinking June for GoT. Even though BLL just wrapped filming, they shouldn’t need too much post production time since it is not VFX heavy. I think they could be ready to premiere by March.
Jack Bauer 24,
TD: Jan. 6 – Feb. 24
BLL: Mar. 3 – Apr. 14
GoT: Apr. 21 – May 26 (and make the eligibility deadline)
I’m still going to refuse to believe a June or later premiere.
Not exactly a big leap, but I imagine this is Jon and co. riding into Winterfell and Sansa staring past Jon to look at Daenerys and/or various other strangers in her entourage.
Well, that was akin to licking my finger after wiping a smidgen of chocolate off a child’s chin. I would have been better off not tasting it at all!
On another note, I’m all sorts of stoked to see that Mahershala Ali is in S3 of True Detective.
Totally agree. I don’t think the Stark sisters are going to be too fond of this alliance, even if Jon and Dany present themselves as a “couple”. Her Dad is responsible for plenty of heartache in the Stark camp and while she may not be her Father, she is guilty by association. Wonder if the parentage reveal will have them asking Jon to pick a side.
I am actually really interested in seeing Jaime arrive in the north and Bran remembering that he is responsible for his injuries. I sort of feel like that will be forgiven fast and shoved aside (Bran is an absolute shell of a Stark now) but I’m still interested in how the rest of the Starks will react.
Strangers…or perhaps a most familiar ex-husband? Sansa’s reunion with Tyrion is bound to be highly awkward. At least they seem likely to do some wary circling of each other at first.
The look on Jon’s face as her approaches her seems full of worry or concern. Makes me wonder who else just died.
If anything the parentage reveal could make the alliance more palatable.
Harder to defame the Mad King’s daughter when Jon is the Mad King’s grandson
That blurry fiery bit at the end had a Cersei vibe to it I think. Can’t wait for that Stark reunion too!
Tyrion may well be in the scene, but that’s quite unlikely to be who she’s staring daggers at, since the show has been very insistent about making their relationship chummy.
This tiny footage gave me so much happiness. I can’t wait for more!!
Hopefully we get an actual teaser by the end of October.
No way! Arya is a Targaryen warrior woman fangirl.
The Tormund and Beric shot 8 seconds in seems like a wink directed at anyone still worried about their fates.
Oh, whatever. Sansa hugging Jon was SO Season 6. 😜
BRING ON ARYA.
Same. A June premiere would inevitably have at least 1 or 2 episodes airing in July, which in my mind is a violation of the assertion that it will air in the “first half of 2019”.
On another note, even though season 2 of TD was a noticeable step down from the amazing first season, I’m looking forward to the third season. It will be good to have a show to watch early in the year leading up to GoT!
You read my mind!! 🙂 Although I reckon that a good 93.5% of her scenes next season are spoiler-ific.
Yeah ummm, Jonsa.
Same.
Enharmony’s right; a June premiere wouldn’t allow the whole thing to air in the first half of the year, so *buzzer sound* on that. ;p I’d bet on April (maybe smaller amounts on March or, ugh, May.)
Yeessss, I knew Tormund & Beric would still be around. 😀
Not sure whom Sansa’s looking at like that, but I wouldn’t bet on it being Tyrion. Guess Dany is a fairly likely assumption.
All these reunions are gonna be fascinating, and of course finding out how everyone reacts to the truth of Jon’s parentage. I doubt it’d take long for Arya to warm up to Dany even if she were also initially mistrustful.
And yeah, Bran may now accept that Jaime throwing him to the ground was just something that had to happen in order for him to become the 3ER. Gotta wonder about the others, though.
^ True.
OH MY GOD! My babies, they look so in love! Jon looks so guilty about putting Sansa through all of this but she’ll feel better once she knows he doesn’t have feelings for the Targ.
HBO knows where the real chemistry is at!
Nice try Sue, calling it a “somber hug”. I bet you already know all about their sexy season 8 scenes wink wink.
RedWolf,
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!!
*projectile vomit*
Sue the Fury,
But HBO wouldn’t give him detailes about this video, but they would about the date. He was the first to inform us about 2019 in the first place.
Arya, i think it will depend on how Jon treats her, will they be able to rekindle with closeness or will he keep her at a distance because she is young or a girl, etc… I think Sansa will have problems with it regardless, she will see them as a threat to her power /security – she finally has agency of her own and won’t want to give it up. But again, it could depend on how Jon handles it and how Dany tries to impose her own authority around… or how quickly the NK arrives and makes all the bickering moot 🙂
Well, actually Bran doesn’t have to remember Brienne already knows, he confessed to Catelyn and her when he was Robb’s prisoner… she could tell everyone, if Bran doesn’t, but I doubt she would, but maybe seeing them together will cause a conflict within her (doubt it though).
Really? I thought Bran would have become the 3ER even if he hadn’t been hurt, it was his destiny to become a greenseer in the great war to come, just like Dany had her destiny to give ‘birth’ to the dragons. Out of everyone in GOT, those two are the only two with magical destinies to fulfill (maybe Jon too, but not quite as magical)
I always saw his wolf as more of a jump starter for his powers, not the fall… just like his other siblings gain similar though lesser abilities through their connection to their wolves (not in the show, but the books)… did I miss something?
Wow a Jonsa scene as the first scene of S8??.
..so maybe they ARE going for a love triangle here (GRRM always writes ships involving 3 people)
I wonder if S8 will be about “Aegon” and his sisters – and Dany gets frozen out.
This certainly looks like new footage, Sansa staring at the dragon queen and she is not pleased, at least in the beginning. The clip before this from Big Little Lies is also brand new, as well as the True Detective tease.
The EW article contradicts an earlier statement made saying that it might air outside of the 2019 Emmy eligibility period so if EW is to be trusted, GoT would air alongside Veep’s final season. For years, GoT and Veep aired together in April and HBO might pair those two together again for maximum Emmy chances, GoT is their outstanding drama contender and Veep is its comedy series Emmy darling. These are their current flagship shows in drama and comedy, and both have won tons of Emmys so pairing them up in April for their final seasons would make sense.
MMJ,
Arguably the biggest and the most popular characters gets frozen out? Nope, as mel said she has a big role to play.
Love triangle that serves what actually? There’ll be enough problems to go around with his parentage, J & D and WW etc.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
“Because this is what I live for” indeed! 😀
MMJ,
This idea is absurd.
Not much, but yes we’ll take it! Hyped!
MMJ,
We already have a love triangle with Daenerys, Jon and Jorah. No point in another one.
Yas my babies look good. <3 Can't wait to get a look at Arya and Bran <3
Is this usual practise for HBO? In the U.K. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an advert for an upcoming show that uses footage from previous seasons. Why do that? It doesn’t create the same level of interest and they’ve obviously got footage of Season 8 they could have used.
Clob,
But sunday 21 will be Easter.
Is that a problem? I don’t know at all
MMJ,
I would not call it a love triangle. Jon and Sansa are in love with each other. Just look at Jon’s face walking to her. It’s all there. Danerys is not part of the equation, Jon only brought her home for her dragons.
Sansa & Jon or Dany & Jon, both are icky, Sansa less icky but still related by blood. Only in GoT where incestuous relationships have shippers 🙂
All this “Stark sisters vs. Dany and Tyrion” drama the writers are trying to build would be more believable if they don’t have the all-seeing three eyed raven there with them at Winterfell. Bran could make it easier for everyone if he would just rewatch/binge-watch(just like what the rest of us are doing) Dany, Tyrion and Varys’ journeys for the past 7 seasons, then proceed to explain to his sisters that their motivations are good. Arya and Sansa believed him with all that Littlefinger information he had from the past, so why shouldn’t they do the same for Tyrion, Dany etc., if the information comes from Bran himself?
w,F;LA DLGK;VB srn H]POwrn}POHNMTE
basically my thoughts
shall leave it at that 😉
RedWolf,
This gotta be a sarcasm. Season 7 showed with who is Jon in love with, the Dragon Lady.
MMJ,
BRING ON ARYA!
#NoLoveTriangles
#NoBabyDramas
#ASNAWP👸🏻
#F*cktheNightKing🐓
#LastWomanStanding👟👟
I wonder if Arya is going be suspicious of King Jon and Queen Daenerys and question Jon’s intentions and character like she (Arya) was suspicious of Sansa in season 7?
Especially after Bran aka: 3ER tells everybody who Jon’s real parents are and what Jon’s real name is.
Jon finding out who his mother is (was) could happen Sunday May 12th 2019 which is Mother’s Day in the USA.
Sandor’s gonna tell Arya about Dany’s courageous rescue of the Snow Patrol at the Frozen Lake. Arya + Dany = BFF.
I know. The way I see it, Sansa’s story was essentially concluded in S6-S7, i.e., defeat LF and become Lady of WF.
Arya’s Act III has not yet begun. They had her treading water throughout S7.
S8 should be Aryacentric. 👸🏻
viki,
I think Jamie is going to have a tough time being accepted by the Starks for a couple episodes…
When the Night King attacks Winterfell. Jamie will probably save one or two Starks lives or maybe Brans life … then Jamie will be forgiven for pushing Bran out the window… Jamie’s brave and heroic acts will be witnessed in season 8 and written in the books of books.
Ten Bears,
I think there will be conflict for a couple episodes and then when the Night Kings Army attacks Winterfell everybody realizes they need to fight together to defeat the White Walkers and it will be a repeat of the Snow Patrol rescue… previous enemies will be saving each other from death just like what happened in S7 E6 Beyond the Wall.
Am I the only one who saw a teeny tiiiny NEW shot of Beric in the final flurry, looked like aftermath of the WallFall??? Going back to check, I only watched once and didn’t try freezing the frame.
Ten Bears,
Since Arya follows the many faced God aka:death and the night king is the King of Death… Those two are going to have one hell of a one on one winner takes all fight to the finish. Arya vs. Brienne2 sparring x100
You’re trolling, I hope.
How is Jon + Sansa, who were raised as half-siblings, “less icky” than Jon + Dany, who never knew each other until recently? I totally don’t buy that technicalities of blood relation make incest creepier than an actual childhood relationship.
Firannion,
No? And I am clearly not the only one who thinks that look on his face is romantic love. Case in point :
https://twitter.com/sansasjaime/status/1034010769401237504
Despite Arya’s professed admiration for Queen Nymeria and Aegon the Conqueror’s sisters, I’m very dubious about this. I think that, once Arya and Jon are reunited, she is going to be extremely protective of him and suspicious of anyone she thinks might be using him. Arya being the one to kill Dany is not out of the question IMO.
Sue the Fury,
If we’re talking about the same article, from what I could see Hibberd says quite the opposite: “The new footage buried amid a lot of shots of season 7 — a shot of Jon Snow (Kit Harington) embracing Sansa Stark (Sophie Turner). Some are mistaking this for old footage too (their Castle Black reunion), but it’s actually the two reuniting at Winterfell in the final season.”
I see concern and sympathy, not “heart eyes” by any means. They look to me like two siblings reuniting for the first time after both have received some sort of mutually bad news, such as Bran dying.
I don’t see Sansa staring daggers at anyone, or even staring at anyone specific at all. It looks like she’s looking off into the distance while hugging Jon, thinking about what a mess his return is going to cause in the North. Either that or she knows the Wall has fallen and Jon doesn’t know yet.
just another tease.
Jon and Sansa’s relationship growing up, they were never as close as Jon and Arya until recently but yeah it’s equally icky. Interesting to point out that GRRM’s pitch for ASOIAF originally had a Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle, so it might happen since GRRM is open to the idea of love triangles. Question is, will it be Dany-Jon-Sansa or Jon-Dany-Tyrion or Jon-Sansa-Tyrion? Not really a fan of love triangles, add to that the incest angle but its realistic that one of these combinations might still happen.
Firannion,
I agree that there is no Sansa/Jon thing going on at all. Some people just see what they want to see.
However, I have a hard time seeing Bran dying so early in season 8, especially before the AOTD reaches Winterfell.
What daggers? I agree with Mr. Derp. Sansa may not even be looking at anybody in particular – just thinking.
It’s been amusing reading the assumptions on various other sites that people are making about Sansa based on a few seconds of clip. Assuming…that this is from when Jon arrives back home, Sansa has every right to be reserved. As far as we know from Season 7, Jon sent a raven with a short message saying he’s on his way home with Dany. All Sansa knows about the Targs is that that Dany’s father had her uncle and grandfather killed and her brother kidnapped and raped her Aunt and that resulted in her aunt death. I’d hardly expect her to be ‘excited’ about meeting another Targaryen. Not to mention Tyrion is with them and while he may have been nice to her – he’s still a Lannister – the family that beheaded her father and arranged for the murder of her mother and older brother. Night King or not, I’d not be welcoming Dany with open arms either. I’m sure once she knows the truth, things will change.
Firannion,
Isn’t “sourpuss look” Sansa’s default setting?
It’d be hard to glean whether she’s angry, concerned, afraid, etc. just from a quick glimpse of her facial expression.
River,
As I pointed out above, it is Dany, Jon and Jorah. We know Jon and Dany are in love and we have been told through the entire series that Jorah is IN love with Dany. To me that’s the only love triangle that makes sense at this point.
Firannion,
She’s totally looking at Daenerys (and co), dude.
You can argue that people may be reading too much into it.
But it’s a pretty reasonable assumption.
QFT 😀
Sophie only has like two expressions
There really is nothing in books or show that indicates any romantic love interest between J & S. It also makes little sense for the story. That is why Jonsa fans are ridiculed so much.
-Smiles and laughs- You KNOW it’s the offseason when we’re all staring/squinting at the computer screen trying to overanalyze facial expressions and subtle eye movements.
Speaking of over-analyzing, it looks to me like Sansa’s eyes aren’t focusing on anything specific. She looks to be just kind of looking off into the distance to me. Perhaps she’s looking at other people arriving, but I don’t think so. It just looks like a moment of “Oh geez Jon, did you really have to bring the dragon queen to Winterfell and bend the knee? How the hell are we supposed to get out of this mess?”
Ten Bears,
She’s probably angry about Jon’s bringing home all these guests, and thinking, “How on earth are we going to feed all these people? And their armies? And the dragons?” 🙂
Well, we shall see what we shall see. You may be right. But for my money, if Daenerys & Co. walked in right behind Jon, Sansa’s eyes would likely go first to the one with whom she has intense personal history and, arguably, unfinished business.
After experiencing how truly horrible a marriage can be with Ramsay, she might even have entertained some second thoughts about Tyrion by now. At least he treated her with consistent kindness, which in a strategic medieval aristocratic marriage might be deemed rather a luxury. I’m not ruling out their reuniting – on Sansa’s own terms.
Bran should and would be able to explain everything, he did it with Littlefinger while the sisters were “fighting” and he’ll do it again, unless the Night King gets to him first and takes Bran away on a magical/deadly dragon ride on Viserion. Also someone pointed it out earlier that aside from Bran, the Hound could talk to Arya about Dany as he was saved in that frozen lake with Jon and others.
Also Arya has been rational all throughout the show, I doubt she’s about to go on a killing spree all of a sudden without reason. Arya is pretty much right about everyone else on the show so if she does kill Dany (while highly unlikely), it must be for something truly heinous.
But all of their supposed tension would be resolved quite easily by Bran. Can’t wait to see Arya, Dany, Sansa, Brienne working together then we’ll have Gendry, Jon, Tyrion, Jaime, and the Hound working together as well.
Brienne would be able to vouch for Jaime to the Starks, and Tyrion to Dany. In that dragon pit meeting, Dany and Jaime seemed fine. She didn’t even bring up the fact that he tried to kill her 🙂
That would be… Sandor.
#You’reAlrightLittleBird 🕊
Sansa’s arc is far from concluded. She still needs to prove herself as a ruler of WF and confront Cersei. If LF was to be the ending to one of the main character’s arcs, it’ll be given far more effort.
Also I believe we need to see Sansa and Arya working together properly, since D&D said they would make a great unit.
Firannion,
Do you really believe that Sansa’s eyes would be drawn to a man she already knows, rather than the beautiful, mysterious queen who’s recently taken her kingdom and possibly the affections of her beloved brother too?
Do you think she’s totally devoid of curiosity?
I really don’t understand this reluctance to believe that Sansa’s eyes would be drawn to Daenerys. Do people really believe that they’re going to have an unnatural, tensionless, intrigue-free first meeting?
Maybe she’s not looking at Daenerys. But it really is the most logical assumption at this point.
I don’t think Sansa and Tyrion will be getting back together either. It’s not politically prudent for her at this stage. And despite their amicable relationship, I can’t envision any great affection between them.
The Wolves of Winter,
Totally forgot about Jorah, my bad! I have a bad feeling about Jorah he might do something hero-like that would get him killed. Sir friendzone, read on reddit that he might be Dany’s Nissa Nissa, I hope not. I don’t want anyone to be the Nissa Nissa to someone 🙁
I agree that Sansa looks just mildly pissed off in general, though we already know she’s upset he’s bringing Dany home. That won’t be a surprise. I actually can’t wait to see New Sansa and Dany interact.
I just hope this means a very early in the season Winterfell reunion with Arya. Arya (with Sandor’s training) now can see the way “things are”, so she will give excellent advice if Jon wants to hear it. I just re-watched S3-E5 when Arya tells Gendry that she can be his family, and he says, “you would be my lady”… I am looking forward to the {{Gendry – Arya}} Winterfell reunion as well. Gendry came back with them after the beyond the wall nightmare didn’t he? So he should be in the party traveling to Winterfell? Gendry didn’t listen to Arya when he joined the BWB…he thought they had honor…but hopefully Jon will take her advice. I think Arya’s advice will be much better than Sansa’s. Arya would not keep secrets from Jon like Sansa did last season. She did save the day with the knights of the vale, but she certainly sacrificed thousands of wildlings and northmen since she didn’t let Jon in on the plan.
This is in essence what my thoughts have been. While it can be expected that we’ll get more of the grandstanding and complaining about this person and that person, it all needs to be resolved rather quickly. The shit is going to hit the fan! At that point one would think they’d all be happy to have more numbers and dragons on their side. We’re not in an early season when they can afford to spend several episodes slowly building storylines and adding in tons of side arcs as filler. We may not like hearing the words “push” and “rush,” but they have been used to describe the pace of the final season. There are a lot of big, climactic pieces to get in that will bury personal qualms and jealousies that aren’t resolved.
Clob,
For sure. To me, the Winterfell plot will be resolved in one of the following two ways:
1) The North refuses to go along with a Stark/Targaryen alliance until Sansa/Arya/Bran convince them that this is the only way to defeat their common enemies. The arrival of the AOTD on their doorstep is the icing on the cake and they all fight together, but will most likely lose anyway.
2) The North refuses to go along with a Stark/Targaryen alliance. Sansa/Arya/Bran try to convince the Northern leaders that this is the only way to defeat their common enemies, but they still refuse, much like they did before the BOTB. The Northern leaders all return to their respective strongholds to fight off the AOTD alone, which will undoubtedly result in total losses, and the North falls to the AOTD.
Either way, I think it all results in the same conclusion. The North falls, whatever survivors there are will have to flee South to KL with the AOTD close behind.
Yeah this is what I was thinking as well. In the outline the R+L=J reveal gave permission for Jon to be with his sister. R+L=J does the opposite for Jon and Dany – accidental incest is almost never a cause for people to “reaffirm their love” in literature. Oedipus didn’t shrug at the news and start making out with Jocasta again. Plus its not just “regular incest” – it’s Targaryen incest which is even worse, because it’s blood purity for the sake of magical nuclear weapons.
Of all the scenes they could have chosen, it’s another hug – seems like a shipper tease. They also used the Jon/Sansa reunion hug for Sky Atlantic promotional materials. I wonder why this keeps coming up. We don’t need to know that “Jon has platonic love for his sister” – scenes like that serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever, unless it’s building toward something.
Or, if there is nothing there, at least a fight over which family Jon chooses. Sansa is giving a dagger eyes “back off” look and I’m getting she-wolf vibes. Sophie said a “passionate fight” is coming for her in S8. And a lot of cast and crew interviews have said the ending would be divisive. I like Bauer’s comment that it’s “brave” – which is interesting too.
BeardedOnion,
“Also I believe we need to see Sansa and Arya working together properly, since D&D said they would make a great unit.”
———-
Yes. I agree with you there. I’m looking forward to the dynamic duo working in tandem – to erase the bitter aftertaste of the PsychoArya vs. FranticSansa “drama” of S7e5-e6. I wouldn’t mind extended scenes of the sisters, similar to their battlements reconciliation scene at the end of S7s7.*
* Sansa: “…You would have. You’re the strongest person I know.”
Arya: “I believe that’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me.”
Sansa: “Well, don’t get used to it. You’re still very strange and annoying.”
I just loved that little exchange.
If Jon will be linked to anyone it will be Dany. It’s been foreshadowed rather heavily that he is getting Dany pregnant and once he finds out, he will want to get married to her simply so his child will not be born a bastard.
I really don’t see Jon and Sansa together…at all, but who knows how it will all play out.
River,
You lost me at “read on reddit.”
For me, that’s like saying “According to QAnon…”
As far as Sansa knows – Dany’s father had her uncle and grandfather executed. Dany’s brother kidnapped and raped her aunt, which resulted in her death. Can’t blame her for not looking excited about seeing a Targ on her land. Not to mention Tyrion’s family had her father beheaded, her mother and brother killed, I wouldn’t want him on my property either – even if he was ‘nice’ to me. That doesn’t change the fact that he’s a Lannister and Sansa knows better than anyone else that blood is thicker than water.
I’m actually with Ten Bears regarding Daenerys and Arya. I do assume that Arya will give her the stink-eye and be leery at first, but once she has a one-on-one with Jon and/or Daenerys herself I think she’ll become comfortable with her. Daenerys really isn’t one for lies as she pretty much says what she wants and believes, which Arya should be able to see in her when they speak. I suppose it is unlikely that Arya will have learned Valyrian even though it wasn’t shown or mentioned. I’m glad that will be possible when they eventually meet in the books because it will add a little connection between the two from the start.
I really do wish my scenario of Arya meeting them on the Kingsroad incognito would happen. That way she could observe Daenerys in a manner that’s not “at the in-laws” to get a better point of view… while also eliminating one person needing lengthy conversation to convince.
Clob,
“I really do wish my scenario of Arya meeting them on the Kingsroad incognito would happen. That way she could observe Daenerys in a manner that’s not “at the in-laws” to get a better point of view… while also eliminating one person needing lengthy conversation to convince.”
——-
Yeah, I liked your scenario. You should re-post it if you have it saved somewhere.
Yes. Yes, I do. Though Ten Bears makes a fair point that Sansa’s attention may rivet to Sandor as well, presuming that he’s arriving simultaneously with Jon’s entourage (I don’t think we saw him on the ship to White Harbor). And I don’t see why it would imply that she is “devoid of curiosity” that her first concern would be with the people who are intimately part of her own past – especially with men: Not only is Sansa self-centered, but she also has long been one to look primarily to men for personal affirmation.
Granted, my own logic here may be influenced by the fact that I’ve never felt much engaged with the arc of the “beautiful, mysterious queen.” My patience with Her Entitledness is very limited, and I don’t think Dany needs to be the focal point of every single scene that she’s in. The relationships among the Northern squad and the Kings Landingers are of much greater narrative interest to me.
Also, Sansa has yet to experience being a queen, so I don’t think that Dany “taking her kingdom” is likely to be that much of an issue. It seems more likely to me that the Stark girls will simply be wary of Dany’s sudden influence over Jon, for Jon’s own sake. Someone higher up the thread pointed out that Bran will be able to download the facts for them, but I don’t see Bran having any particular reason to favor Dany’s involvement, beyond the obvious usefulness of her WMDs in defeating the Army of the Dead.
Looks like Sansa is looking to Daenerys there!! She is definetely unpleasant! I think Dany will behave better to Sansa than Sansa behave to her. Well, at least that’s for sure for the beginning. I mean, Dany is the one who has to gain their trust after all.
It’s really great to see new footage. Things will be faster after this, I believe.
The Good Waif,
He has updated the site.
River,
I don’t know, I think Jorah will do something bad. I think because of the grayscale and that he got cured, that he does not accept his Lord Friendzone status anymore. He wants more, always has.
In season 2 Quaithe asks him if he will betray Dany again. He says never at the time, but he doesn’t know what will happen later on. I’m thinking that wasn’t just a question but also foreshadowing. And given the patterns on her clothing she is a Red Priestess, so she might know more.
BeardedOnion,
The parentage reveal is a good thing for Sansa. I see her telling Job he should claim the iron throne so as she still remains lady of Winterfell.
Although it would be richly ironic if Daenerys bears Jon’s bastard – the very thing he was so keen to avoid. And even more ironic if eventually Jon and Sansa did marry (I’m unconvinced on this one but just considering the possibility), and she raised his actual bastard with the love and care that Cat had never provided to him growing up.
This is essentially how I see it.
What’s up with Jon’s hair?
More excited for Jon Favreau, Hugh Laurie, and TD S3…Whoop!
Jack Bauer 24,
Looks pretty much the same to me from that brief new footage. Does it look different to you?
Sansa is ready to face anyone, she’s a grown woman who has been through it. She bout to strut, be sassing Jon and ready for a Queen-Off with Dany haha seriously I’m so excited as well, we didn’t get any Dany-Margaery interaction so this will do, also Dany and Arya, two of my favorite characters together in one scene that’s mind blown. Better Dany, Arya, Brienne, three of my fav characters then that’s all minds in the known universe blown into smithereens.
Hmm… I find it ‘funny’ when people condemn J & D because it’s incest between nephew & aunt, yet champion a pairing between Jon and Sansa or Arya. Cousins is hardly less incestuous, but beyond that, it’s between individuals that were raised as siblings and see each other as such. Do people really believe Jon learning that Lyanna is his mother and Ned not his father will make him suddenly see either of them as something other than “sister”? If this was a real situation do you honestly think that’s less gross than being with someone you never knew that ends up having a similar family tie? So Jon has such an issue being with Daenerys because she’s related he’s going to dump her and get together with another family member, intentionally this time?? I get wanting to ship characters, but sometimes the rationale is irrational.
Yeah Jon looks different to me for some reason lol. Hair looks a little flatter?
Actually, the coefficient of relationship for first-cousins (12.5%) is exactly half that of aunt-nephew (25%). And in Jon & Dany’s case it would be higher than 25% (I’m not really sure what) because of how inbred she and Rhaegar are/were.
Jack Bauer 24,
Looks about the same to me, but who knows. That Northern climate can do terrible things with such lustrous, dark manes. Perhaps he just needs a good shampoo and conditioning? Having your hair slicked back for that long can flatten it out quite a bit.
I can see it now. Kit Harington, new spokesman for Cover Girl. Easy, breezy, beautiful!
Mr Derp,
I think the Northern Lords won’t trust Daenerys Targaryen & Aegon Targaryen so they will retreat back to their castles just like they did for the BotB…
Daenerys 2 Dragons The Unsullied Dothrakis Knights of the Vale are enough to defeat and destroy the Night King and his army. The battle destroys Winterell but the Night King and his army dies in the North. I don’t see how dead zombies could defeat so many of the best fighters of Planetos.
After seeing that Daenerys and her army saved the North by destroying the Night King and his army… The Northern Houses join Jon & Daenerys army to march south to Fight the Golden Company and take King Landings which is still covered in Snow. I don’t think the Night King makes it to Kings Landing.
if the Night King makes it to Kings Landing that would mean that the White Walkers destroyed Jon or Daenerys army they wouldn’t make it past the third or 4th season 8 episode. If Jon and Daenerys have no army there is no way they could defeat the Golden Company and take Kings Landing. Cersie or the Night King would sit on the Iron Throne.
As someone said upthread, people see what they want to see (and ignore what they don’t want to see). I’m not “shipping” Jon & Sansa, but I don’t think it’s as unthinkable as you’re making it out to be. Don’t get me wrong, I think the sibling bond between Jon and Arya would render that pairing gross. But if JonxSansa is supposed to be unthinkable why did GRRM take such pains to make it very clear that Jon and Sansa didn’t have a typical sibling relationship growing up?
The Wolves of Winter,
I hope not, I mean a man has been given a second chance, there will not be a third 🙂 How would he betray Dany? by way of Jon? hope not they have a good relationship. Now if Daario comes back into the picture that would complicate the triangle, does that make it a quadrangle? Jon-Dany-Jorah-Daario.
Also Tyrion in S7 was showing some early signs of unrequited love for Dany, what is up with him lurking near Dany’s room and earlier he had this big plea to Dany “if you die, we’re all lost, everyone, everything.” He might be feeling something for Dany. The original pitch had Jon-Arya-Tyrion so what if its now Jon-Dany-Tyrion?
… and what I’m saying is that the “grossness percent” in this case is higher and makes it worse between Jon and his sister-cousins since they were raised as siblings and known each other as such their entire lives.
I don’t recall the statistics, but I believe the best fighters in Planetos are seriously outnumbered.
I fully believe that the “good guys” will lose the war, but some kind of self sacrifice will defeat the Night King and the AOTD in the end (perhaps Dany or Jon taking a knife to the heart). So I fully expect the AOTD and the NK to make it to KL where the final showdown will commence.
Ten Bears,
I like reading theories on reddit 🙂 they have lots of wild and entertaining theories there. Its another thing to tide me over this long wait.
So this is a scenario that a cognitive psych professor I know has been using for years in his undergrad lectures (although not with GoT characters) to illustrate how the rational basis of the incest taboo that most societies have can be irrational in some cases: e.g. “Would you object to a sexual relationship between an adult brother-sister pair, who are both cognitively intact and fully consenting, if the brother has had a vasectomy and the sister has had her ovaries removed? Why or why not? Would you object to a sexual relationship between two adult brothers who are both cognitively intact and fully consenting? Why or why not?”
I get that those scenarios are a little bit different than pairing two cousins who grew up believing they were siblings, and the attendant emotions we might expect. But the central point is that the taboo is rooted in the problem of inbreeding, and that the disgust reaction to incest is irrational when reproduction is taken out of the equation. That doesn’t mean that people would just flip a switch and get over their long-established sibling emotions (and the corresponding disgust they’d feel about incest) when it’s revealed that they’re not, in fact, siblings. But that brings us back to why both the books and the show took such pains to make it clear that, unlike his relationship with Arya, Jon’s childhood relationship with Sansa wasn’t close.
Clob,
I say why not go Full Weirdness and have Jon & Dany’s inbred incest bastard come out as a half-human, half-dragon hybrid – kind of like they did with Ripley in “Alien Resurrection.”
If the description of Dany’s stillborn baby in S1 was accurate, it’s not as if this would come out of the blue.
River,
Such as how Gendry is actually Cersei’s (and Robert’s) son and how he’s going to make his claim as such and be king of the 7k at the end?
It’s fun and all to make up theories pulling from the smallest of details or lines of dialogue. I’d say that one is a bit more of a stretch than a lot simply because he’s an even smaller presence in the books. While I do think Arya will run into him again in the books (probably at the Inn at the Crossroads), I’m not convinced D&D didn’t bring him back mostly because of how much of a fan favorite he was. There were reasonable reasons to do so that weren’t so grand. If only they would have had him grow his hair back out and made him less of a dweeb in doing so… 🙂
Mr Derp,
Maybe the “self-sacrifice” will be voluntarily undergoing the Benjen shard-to-the-heart operation. That’s something Jon would do to “guard the realms of men.”
Gwidhiel,
Well…. speaking from personal experience and take this for what you will, even with the sibling I’m not close with at all, I could never ever, ever stop seeing her as my sister. Even if it came out that she adopted, that wouldn’t change anything. As distant as we are, she’s still my sister. I grew up with her as my sister. And based on the show and the books, there’s no indication of romantic feeling between Jon and Sansa. Regardless of their distant relationship, Jon sees Sansa as his sister and he loves her as such – but as one of his siblings, as part of the pack, as a family member who’s been part of her life from the day she was born. And that’s a mentality I can’t personally even fathom ever overcoming.
But really, and realistically, not all siblings are close. Many aren’t. But that doesn’t mean they don’t see each other as such.
If Sansa and Jon were raised apart and not as half-siblings, okay, but they were. That’s why it’s an issue for me and that’s why their lack of closeness growing up doesn’t negate anything.
George answers that here
and
There’s been no hint that Sansa and Jon have any physical attraction to each other. We haven’t seen anything of the sort. There’s also been no foreshadowing or specific reason to lead one to believe that Jon and Sansa will become a thing in season 8. Where is this even coming from?
In this particular case that makes me less sold on the possibility. Sansa’s dislike of Jon was like her mother’s and not stemming from some hidden sexual infatuation that could take root if given the opportunity. Growth and experience now has allowed them to see past the childish differences and respect and love each other as siblings. As lovers? No!
That’s the whole point – it’s an issue for you. You find it hard to imagine yourself in that situation behaving in any way other than the way that you would behave. But you didn’t grow up in a huge castle with pretty rigid gender roles and social hierarchies in place. Sansa obeyed her mother and her Septa and spent most of her time indoors, sewing, reading, and singing. Jon was largely outside all day hunting, training in the yard, doing boy things. That split is quite different than growing up in a modern Western home with a sibling whom you might not be close to but with whom you share a bathroom, living room, and sit at the same small family dinner table several times a week, etc.
And just to be clear, I’m not arguing for Jon x Sansa. I don’t feel that they’ve shown Sansa to have anything other than sisterly feelings for Jon and I’m doubtful that there’s time in S8 for a convincing romantic relationship between them. Plus, so many audience members loathe Sansa and would be very displeased with the pairing for that reason. But the arguments that the relationship is unthinkable or that the people suggesting it are irrational, don’t withstand the same logical scrutiny they claim to be applying.
Jay Targ,
Yes, exactly. But not sure how you think that means that the Jon x Sansa pairing is impossible?
And again – I’m not promoting it! But I don’t see where the certainty that it’s impossible is coming from.
Exactly what I was thinking as well. Like, “yeah it’s good to finally see you, but we’re all gonna face death (pun intended) sooner than you think”.
I think Sansa is looking at all the folks who came in behind Jon, but looks up to see dragons.
Gwidhiel,
You sure seem to be promoting it.
Really? I’m pretty sure I just stated why I’m unconvinced that it’s going to happen. If this is where the show is going, they’ve made the selling that relationship harder than it would have otherwise been with their mangling of the Sansa character. In addition to needing to overcome people’s uneasiness about the apparent incest they’d also have to contend with the widespread Sansa hate, that’s on full, proud display in threads on this site. Seems like they’ve shot themselves in the foot if this is where they’re taking the story.
But doubting it will happen because of how the show has handled Sansa is not the same as saying that the idea is ludicrous. It’s not.
Gwidhiel,
Hmm, then Sansa would get someone “brave, gentle, and strong,” that she didn’t want, and she could also “hatch” something, that she said she wouldn’t do, too.
Well on the one hand, you say that you don’t buy into it, but on the other hand, you’re awfully argumentative with those who don’t subscribe to it, so it’s a rather confusing position that you’ve taken.
Yes. That’s what I was hoping to get across when I said “personally” and “for me”. I’m only speaking for myself with the desire to include my viewpoint in this conversation as to why I think Jon and Sansa’s lack of childhood closeness does not negate them seeing each other as siblings.
Yeah, growing up in Toronto, Canada during the 90s and early 00s is different from growing up in medieval Westeros, you’re absolutely right. Still – my sister and I didn’t share a lot – not a bathroom, not a bedroom, not activities, not a classroom. We didn’t even really have dinners together – only on special occasions because on a day-to-day basis, we all were doing our extracurriculars at meal times.
I’m only speaking for myself. I’m not saying I’m the standard, I’m not telling people what to ship or what not to ship, I’m only saying why I myself have a problem with the “they weren’t close” argument and why overcoming that sibling mentality, close or not, is personally unfathomable for me.
I like Sansa just fine. I have nothing against her. I mean, we all come to these stories with the context of our own experiences and I certainly share some of Sansa’s sibling rivalry traits toward another sister, which is part of the reason why I could understand her in the first book.
If that makes you happy – feel free.
I’m perhaps more attuned to the facets of the incest taboo issue than most people are because I’m familiar with the scientific literature. It’s a rich area for exploring cognitive dissonance and the roots of the unexamined beliefs that people hold.
Impossible? No. But it is highly unlikely. And it’s unlikely for far more reasons than the reasoning you gave Mr Derp.
As Ten Bears often says, we’ve seen about 95% of the story, if that were the direction the show were going then D&D would have at least hinted at it. And I’m not sure that it being “unexpected” or “unpredictable” is a good argument. I can come up with any number of things that would be unpredictable. Again, not impossible, but unlikely at this stage.
I agree with you, actually.
Well the reason why we’re talking about it, is because they chose to make the first scene of S8 a Jon/Sansa scene – which I’m quite shocked by. If they dont matter, then why even drop it into the hype machine?
It doesn’t matter if general audiences will accept it or not. People’s relationships with their own siblings or their beliefs in the incest taboo also don’t matter. We also have no idea what’s going on in Jon’s head – this isn’t book material. All we can go on, is the writing, acting and framing of the scenes, and what they choose to focus on (again, this clip!)
I think it’s more important that there is an in-universe idea that Targaryen incest is a very negative symbol – if Jon/Dany continue their relationship even after the parentage reveal, it sends the message that Jon/Dany are separate/above others, that blood purity is a good thing, that 300 years of incest can (and should?) be used to keep power, and that flaunting that exclusivity, is healthy.
Obviously if it was so great the Targaryens wouldn’t have madness, infertility, and lizard babies as a “cost.”
Gwidhiel,
We agree for once! Haha 🎉🎈🎊
firstone,
Arya was suspicious of Sansa’s intentions because she had preconceived notions of who his sister was. What she remembered of Sansa was the girl who refused to support Arya’s account of what happened in her confrontation with Joffrey over Micah. She remembered the girl who was so enamored with the idea of being a princess that she was willing to go against family. Arya did not question Sansa’s motives out of thin air, there was history there. They did not like each other.
Jon, on the other hand, was/is her favorite sibling. The show didn’t portray the strong Jon-Arya bond as extensively as the book does but I’m not sure there’s another relationship that is more loving than Jon-Arya’s relationship in the entire series. Arya may be wary of Daenerys, for various reasons, but I would be incredibly surprised if she ever doubted Jon’s character.
Jay Targ,
I knew if we kept at it we’d find some common ground. 🙂
Clob,
Yes that and more, reddit theories are so much fun to read! GoT fans both on that site and here are so creative. The fans are undoubtedly a big part of the series by now. The writers have been reading some of the comments on reddit and here, Sansa had a line in S7 when she was being confronted by Arya, “you didn’t win it back, Jon didn’t win it back, he lost the Battle of the Bastards.” She called it the BotB, I don’t recall anyone on the show – Davos, Ramsay, Jon?? ever calling the battle that, did they? The episode title itself I think was born on the internet. D&D were definitely reading comments online.
To build hype? I don’t know about you, but seeing this scene has made me all the more excited to see Jon & Arya’s / Jon & Bran’s reunion. It also likely suggests that Dany and co arrive in Winterfell without actually showing it. Again creating excitement to see those new relationships form, and speculating about how they’ll react to each other.
Lightbringer,
Agree Lightbringer, Sansa has history with Jon’s retinue ie Hound, Tyrion and Varys, if there. I would be surprised if this has anything to do with Jon at all. Or she could be thinking ‘how the hell am I going to feed this lot’😯
What evidence is there that this is representing the first scene of season 8? Do you mean the first scene they are showing to us?
They focused on Jon and Sansa reuniting and that somehow means they are going to be a couple? Why? Last off-season they showed a clip of Arya looking at Winterfell from a distance. It simply meant she was coming home. It didn’t mean that Arya and Winterfell would get married.
Hype is exactly that…hype. Another word for it is exaggeration. I believe the “hype machine” will also tell you that Syrio Forel is still alive, everyone is a secret Targaryen, Varys is a merman, and Bran is the Night King. The hype machine is not to be trusted.
It’s important to show that Targaryen incest is bad, but apparently Stark incest is all good?
Building hype also means feeding the ship war, which is what really makes “Game of Thrones” trend on Twitter and Tumblr. PR folks know that game.
Yeah cousin incest IS fine; it’s not incest in this universe. And the Starks didn’t closely intermarry in each successive generation for the past 300 years to maintain connection to their magical wolves, so that they could keep control of the North, and separate themselves from the people they ruled over.
In my opinion it was little more than nothing, certainly not a “scene.” We know D&D, they put as little as they can that can be considered spoilers even in their own trailers. For a two second snip for an HBO season teaser they obviously would give them even less. They gave them something that is essentially nothing. We’re able to assume he returns as expected to Winterfell where we know Sansa already is. Big deal. They’re not going to put something spoilery in the clip! They obviously would not spoil a Jon and Arya reunion in it. There are several other things that can be suggested that they would not show. Some people want everything to have a bigger, special meaning and that isn’t always true.
It’s gonna be like Big Brother, the drama that comes with living under one roof, big personalities clashing. Sansa pissed at Dany for leaving towels on the floor. Jorah hating that Jon and Dany are “bunking” together. Bran warging into Drogon to get a better look at the world outside of the “Big” house/winterfell.
Seriously though episode 1 should just be about honoring all these reunions and first-time meet-ups, and just a little AoTD tease. I want the 1st episode to just be about these characters interacting and observing each other. Jon’s reunion with Arya and Bran alone should take up an entire episode 🙂
Hmm… maybe people that live in Alabama or Mississippi think boffing first cousins is all super and dandy, but where I’m from people certainly do not consider it “fine.”
jon looking at sansa like shes the most beauttiful thing hes ever seen look how he just walks into her arms.they are ned and cat 2.0. jonsa is endgame
Ten Bears,
That’s why becoming the “younger more beautiful Queen” would add some story for season 8. And Winterfell becomes free for “can I have a holdfast” Arya 😉
Btw, I don’t see romantic love in the fragment. But if Daenerys doesn’t survive, and the north still doesn’t like Targaryens, a political alliance between Jon and Sansa makes sense. Littlefinger said so last year, and Sansa arranging her own marriage would actually be a fitting conclusion for her story. Furthermore, in contrast to Jon or Daenerys she actually knows King’s Landing. Of course, the North accepting Targaryen rule because they save them from the WW is a real option as well.
looking at her with heart eyes straight eye contact
Clob,
Irrelevant. Cousin relationships/marriage are acceptable in this universe, see: Tywin Lannister, Robert Baratheon, Rickard Stark, Paxter Redwyne, Sweetrobin.
Put me in the “Sansa is focused on something specific” camp. You don’t look that sharp-gazed to stare off into the distance. I don’t think she has a problem with Tyrion being there, but she’s wary of anyone’s motives. Was Jon forced to bend the knee? If not, what’s going on? I can’t believe news of the Field of Fire hasn’t reached Winterfell, and Dany killing Sam’s dad and brother. Randall was a jerk, but the way Tyrion saw how their deaths could look to the rest of the kingdoms is right. Just more proof you can’t trust the daughter of the Mad King. Sophie has said this is Sansa’s first test on her own, with no Baelish there to offer counsel. So she’s feeling a bit exposed.
Also lovely contrast to their first reunion hug.
I think some of her fight for her family will be because Jon has his own identity crisis. We had all that lovely foreshadowing convo between him and Theon about being both.
As for Jaime and Bran, I could see their meeting being all about Jaime coming full circle. No one else may ever know what happened that day (though I think Tyrion suspects).
So Peter is in that promo for two different roles. I’m like oh Tyrion…you’ve done something new with your hair. ..and you’ve shaved lol. In case anyone missed it, it’s for his role in My Dinner with Hervé.
I love how Sansa is waiting for Jon with literal open arms! How sweet! I mean that in a platonic sibling way, not in a #jonsa way. Also she’s definitely giving side eye to his new Targaryen crew.
fdr,
oh yeah sansa is definitely the younger more beautiful queen and as you said an alliance makes sense jon is a trueborn targ and sansa is a trueborn stark it will be rhaeagar and lyanna all over again except their marraige will bring the north and south together.thats ice and fire.the show will not end in a targ restoration
MMJ,
I see nothing significant at all in their choosing to show a Jon-Sansa scene. I believe they’re showing it precisely because there’s nothing very important or spoiler-y about it (unlike a Jon-Arya or Jaime-Bran scene, for instance). They also probably chose it because it was one of those scenes that was easier to prepare/edit than the others. I think they’ll save the more dramatic/exciting clips of scenes for the months closer to the premiere of Season 8. Just because they show a Jon-Sansa scene on their promos certainly doesn’t mean Jon-Sansa is endgame; if they were, then I believe HBO would do the exact opposite and show fewer or none of their scenes in promos, teasers, etc., so that it wouldn’t be so obvious and would come as a surprise to most viewers. So while some of you may think this scene hints at an eventual Jon-Sansa pairing, it reinforces my belief that their relationship will be nothing but a brother-sister relationship and won’t be as important as the other relationships in the show (and I don’t mean only romantic relationships, but friendships/alliances as well). These more important relationships will most likely be kept secret until we actually see them on the show.
HBO: “Let’s put a snippet from Season 8 that doesn’t give anything away, and watch people speculate up to their necks about deeply meaningful theories until they’re blue in the face!”
HBO today: ” Bwahahahaha!!!!!”
I don’t think that’s a good position to start from, because from now on we’d have to agree that the promos that don’t spoil anything (which is all of them), don’t matter. So, if there is no importance on what they decide to show us, then there’s no point in speculating on what they are emphasizing/misdirecting, going forward. And that’s hella boring.
It’s relevant to me when I was responding to you using “this universe,” as in our real world, and not using “their universe.” 😉
Lunaselene,
You may be right! Even though I dont think Jon/Dany is endgame because of the message it sends about incest, purity, and power, I’m more of a realpolitik person. I am hoping for political and familial conflict, because it makes for good drama. This promo seems to tease that, so I’m happy.
Clob,
It’s probably best to use in-universe norms to make predictions.
There goes Jon again,
causing such a ruckus with those soulful eyes 👀
Wow! I never thought I’d ever so much as place a toe on the Jonsa ship but my god you’ve done it, I’m a Jonsa convert!😱😆
MMJ,
As I implied, there’s a difference between quick clips for an HBO season promo and a trailer specifically made for Game of Thrones under their direction. Still, D&D typically put very little in the trailers and promo screenshots that spoil anything directly. For example, they specifically cut shots at Castle Black for S6 so that Sansa was not seen. Daenerys and the dragons over Meereen was one of the biggest elements of that season and it was a complete surprise because they showed nothing of that sequence. Obviously whatever they show in trailers with new shots is going to contain something somewhat spoilery, but they choose shots that give away as little as possible.
I don’t recall Jaime getting smacked in the face with a big stick. Was that in Season 7 or is it new?
Clob,
Well, who knows – the scene might be important. I don’t like Sansa’s look. It looks very similar to the one she gave to Littlefinger in Ep 408, when she was crying on the shoulder of that Vale lady and the whole scene gave me a similar wibe: Sansa is up to no good.
Before S7 I said that Sansa wouldn’t betray Jon but as for S8 I’m not so sure: Dany undermines Sansa’s position in every possible way, so Sansa might do something to get rid of her (and Jon).
On the other hand, when last we saw, Sansa’s look led nowhere: Littlefinger sold her to the Boltons. There is that parallel between Sansa and Cersei and just like Cersei Sansa may turn out to be not as smart as she thinks. So, even if she makes a move against Jon and/or Dany before the great war is over, she’ll hardly she cause any major damage (though I can imagine her seizing power after the war).
And one way or another, there will be a lot of tension between Sansa and Dany who may get angry ad do something impulsive because of that.
onedon,
Thanks for the clarification.
is this true? the only footage of S8-Jon is with a man-bun like in season what? and is it true that all of us close the eyes and don’t look anywhere when we meet and hug a person we’ve been missing for a while?
i just want to say that this little bit of Jon and Sansa isn’t worth anything when it comes to predictions. ok, maybe it is worth some thoughts about the Stark family bonds. but it is surely not pointing towards another love triangle or stuff like that. simply because this show is not about “who will bang the dragon queen and who will bang what’s left”, and if it turns out to be about that, then f*ck it!
says house chickenfire after seven seasons of addiction, so it’s true.
River,
“Sansa had a line in S7 when she was being confronted by Arya, “you didn’t win it back, Jon didn’t win it back, he lost the Battle of the Bastards.” She called it the BotB, I don’t recall anyone on the show – Davos, Ramsay, Jon?? ever calling the battle that, did they? The episode title itself I think was born on the internet. D&D were definitely reading comments online.”
——–
Yes they did. HPNN (Hot Pie News Network) in S7e2 – paraphrasing:
HP: “I thought you’d be headed to Winterfell.”
Arya: “Why would I go there? The Boltons have it.”
HP: “No. The Boltons are dead.”
Arya: “What?”
HP: “Jon Snow cane down from Castle Black with a Wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards. He’s King in the North now.”
Looks to me like it was from Season 7 episode 4.
Exactly. Just pull the strings and watch the people dance for your amusement!
Clob,
“They’re not going to put something spoilery in the clip! They obviously would not spoil a Jon and Arya reunion in it.”
————-
Right! And they’d better not spoil that. Nor do I want to know whose blood is splashed all over Arya’s sneakers before I watch her fillet him or her in S8.
It’s significant if it foreshadows Sansa’s betrayal, but if its foreshadowing Sansa vs. Dany, or that Jon and Sansa will be an important couple, whether platonically or not, it has no significance? 🤨
that was my reaction to Alan Taylor, when he said Jon and Dany are “the point” of 10k pages, 80+ tv hours or whatever – F. That. However, there isn’t a single romance in the series that hasn’t been “love triangled,” so I think it’s to be expected because it is a writing device to introduce tension. But its more than just who bangs who – a dilemma over the heart could set up another “Aemon’s choice” that Jon has to make.
Did the big stick represent reality? *whack!!!!* 😉
I forgot I was going to reply to this…
I’m up for that! It would line up well with my (joke) ending of Jon and Daenerys transforming into dragons and flying away at the end. 😛
Best headline of the year. For a minute there, I almost forget about the oppressive August heat and humidity (which I’m sure Westeros would only too gladly trade their freezing winter for)!
There would be riots. And it wouldn’t even really be a spoiler, per se. I hope Arya will meet Jon somewhere en route to Winterfell, maybe even in the opening scene of S8, so that that reunion will be separated from the hubbub of the entourage’s arrival at Winterfell. Perhaps that’s why they chose that little clip of Jon and Sansa reuniting – as Sansa told Arya, for all that Jon was happy to see Sansa, “when he sees you his heart will probably stop.” I am quite excited about the reunions to come.
So you don’t believe that Jon and Daenerys are the two most main and important characters in ASoIaF? Huh. That became my perspective pretty early while I was reading the books. That was so much my feeling that before the show even started I began believing that the book series title was a poetic method of writing “The Story of Jon and Daenerys.” That hasn’t changed while watching the show, especially with a director saying such things and dialogue within the show specifically referring to them as “Ice and Fire.”
Brienne gave him a few good whacks on that bridge, Bronn smacked him good during training, and I’m sure Cersei slapped him around plenty of times in the boudoir. 😉
Firannion,
I agree with you 100%. Also, the taboos are different in Westeros, even aside from the Targaryen proclivity for marrying siblings. Aunt/nephew, uncle/niece and first cousin marriages are not a big deal.
Clob,
Especially since Melisandre in the freaking show actually refers to them as Ice and Fire. If anyone’s still denying that Jon and Dany are the two most important characters to the story at this point then…I mean….damn. What more evidence does one need?
I think Sansa is the Stark version of TQOT, she’ll protect her pack, that includes Jon.
I think it be a normal thing to distrust not only Danny, but anyone coming from the south.
She had to hold the North and Vale alliance together, and now she’s put between the alliance and Danny and her Dragons, she’s right, Jon isn’t making it easy for her.
Danny,
That is a very good explanation why Arya acted the way she did toward Sansa in season 7… I didn’t think about looking all the way back to season 1 but your point makes a lot of sense! The story is tied together like a divine jigsaw puzzle. Good info!!!
Regarding the hot topic…
I think Sansa and the Hound have a better chance of hooking up than Sansa and Jon.
I agree that they are the most important characters, particularly in the show. I just don’t see that it follows that they must move forward in unity.
Gwidhiel,
I didn’t say anything about romance or unity. I was reiterating that Dany and Jon are the most important characters in the show. Unity or not.
And probably thinking : We don’t have enough food.
Mr Derp,
Agree 100%. She’ll be pregnant by the time they get off the boat. They will have been going at it for days or weeks by then.
I’m wondering if Dany will arrive by Drogon rather than horseback. It seems logical for her to make an entrance that way. Also, based on what Jorah told her before the boat ride about enemies in the North, she would not want to take the risk of riding by horse from White Harbor to Winterfell. Nor would she want to let her dragons fly without direction by themselves before the first introduction at Winterfell. Maybe that’s what Sansa is staring at over Jon’s shoulder: Dany on top of Drogon.
Yes, he’ll marry her. Jon is not a one night stand kind of guy, she’s a Queen, and he loves her. I doubt she’ll know or tell him she’s pregnant before they arrive in Winterfell, however. They’ll save that bit of drama for after Jon finds out who he is.
Mr Derp,
Oh sorry if I misunderstood you.
Mr Derp,
The person whose initial assertion Clob was responding to (MMJ) never said they weren’t the most important characters in the show.
They were saying that they didn’t believe Jon and Dany getting together was the point of the novels.
Probably a more reliable source than Melisandre for a start.
Which means its probably a good idea to think the opposite of whatever she says.
I’m going with the author’s words: “The things going on north of the Wall, and then there is Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons — are of course the ice and fire of the title, A Song of Ice and Fire.” So Ice=Others, Dany=Fire. Two forces that can destroy the world and the human race, a la Robert Frost.
And yeah I was on the Jon/Dany train on like my first read in 2003…but not on the second or third because the foreshadowing is quite superficial when I started to dig deeper into the histories and understood Sansa’s arc. For example, Jon and Sansa have a parallel that Jon/Dany could never share. Both had to hide their identity from the public because people wanted to kill them, and as a result, both of their fake fathers made them their bastards. That’s hyper-specific.
Giocrypt,
YAAASSSS! Jon could be saying something to Sansa. Something that makes her look up and take notice. There are several possibilities. I can’t tell if she is staring daggers or just looking concern because a whole army is marching into her home. Either way, I don’t care…they’re hugging!!!!
No worries 🙂 Apparently I did the same.
Yup. Some folks think everything was leading up to Jon and Dany having sex to create more inbred Targaryens and I’m just like, completely skeptical of that idea. Of course they’re important characters that will affect the plot – but Dany’s nephew giving her an orgasm and magically solving her fertility problem because he has Targ sperm that can only work with her Targ egg most definitely is not the point.
“A Song of Ice and Fire” is metaphorical on multiple levels. It could refer to any of the following:
A Song of Ice and Fire is Jon and Dany’s child
Ice could represent Jon
Ice could represent the AOTD
Fire could represent Dany
Fire could represent dragons
Jon could be both Ice and Fire since he was the child of a Targaryen and a Stark
Ice could represent the Starks
Fire could represent the Targaryens
It doesn’t have to mean one thing.
Rhaegal could probably feed the populace of Winterfell and Winter Town for at least a few months. Just sayin’.
Slowing it down, I see a bit of pride being shown, and he looks a tad weary.
Let me guess: dragon tastes like chicken?
If so, watch out for Sandor!
If it can mean a long list of things, it can also mean anything you want it to.
Explain this one to me – if Jon is Ice how can Dany be the “bride of fire”? Shouldn’t she be the bride “OF Ice,” since she would be Jon’s bride? Does he magically change elements depending on which one is needed to make Jon/Dany the epic endgame couple?
Yeah.
This is what George says about that
Yeah, while I’ve had my preference on how I would like the story to end, I’ve never really worked a baby into the equation as important for the conclusion. As far out as the books still are I hadn’t decided what sort of pairing they would have, though I was leaning toward romantic. My thoughts have always been that whatever their relationship is they will be the ones to lead the living in their survival, whether or not they survive themselves. I’m not ready to accept the idea of them becoming foes even if I recognize the possibility.
Yes indeedy. but scaling the sucker is a bizotch.
What Plan ?
There is no indication LF got her letter, or if he was still there at Mote Calin, there is also no indication Sansa received a reply and when and where would she receive it?
They traveled ~1200 miles before Sansa realized they weren’t getting more men and even when she implored Jon to go further he said no; it’s only then did she send a raven probably hoping LF still be there; they also had to go through the wolfwoods to WF, where does the raven go? they’re trained to fly castle to castle.
Yeah she could had told Jon about sending the raven, but as of the night prior to the battle we have nothing indicating she heard from LF, hence any questions he might have asked she legitimately had no answers for him, except Ramsey’s going to screw with you; and he did.
There was only 1 plan, Jon’s, and he was taken out of it because Ramsey still had Rickon.
How about first having Drogon and Rhaegal fly around and snag up deer, boar, large fish, etc. and drop it all in Winterfell courtyard? 😀
LMAO. Exactly.
Catspaw Assassin,
Well…. Considering the producers have been fattening up the Dragons with the direwolf budget for a few seasons now….
If you want to examine the secondary and tertiary meanings of “ice” in the books, then Ice is associated with armor, hate, treachery, and defense. If Jon is the “ice to dany’s fire” then the books are suggesting that he will use treachery to defend the realm from Dany’s fire? Then there is the metaphor of oppositional forces, Targaryens fighting and a second dance of dragons? Or at best, lukewarm water? Folks gotta be careful relying on these oppositional forces to foreshadow a love story.
Wouldn’t it be “interesting” if in the books Jon remains dead and Daenerys does have the bloody flux and also dies from it. 😀
Hotpie to Arya ” Jon came down from castle black, he won the Battle of the Bastards, he’s in Winterfell now ” paraphrased.
How much of this is spoilers?
LOL
“Listening to talkers makes me thirsty…. And hungry. Think I’ll take two dragons.”
River,
The EW article contradicts an earlier statement made saying that it might air outside of the 2019 Emmy eligibility period so if EW is to be trusted, GoT would air alongside Veep’s final season. For years, GoT and Veep aired together in April and HBO might pair those two together again for maximum Emmy chances,
Thank goodness! The other news didn’t sound credible.
firstone,
That is a very good explanation why Arya acted the way she did toward Sansa in season 7… I didn’t think about looking all the way back to season 1 but your point makes a lot of sense! The story is tied together like a divine jigsaw puzzle.
It was. That was past, but there was also a real and present problem. In the godswood, she learned the evil Littlefinger was there and had tried to bribe Bran with the Dagger. She almost certainly detected that there was more involved than Sansa’s simple explanation of his presence. Something was wrong in the Winterfell garden. And then Bran passed her *Littlefinger’s* Dagger. It’s no surprise she started investigating him and asking questions of Sansa.
Ten Bears,
It would be rather humorous to see Sandor trying to ride on a horse dragging a big, fried dragon leg with him.
We finally get our first S8 tease and it’s not quite what I was expecting. Sure it’s only 1-2 seconds of actual footage but I was expecting a tease with a line of audio and confirmation of May 2019 premiere so this is a bonus. I guess we will get that though in the coming weeks or so as it feels like things are now building up.
As for the shot, it’s quite a telling one as clearly Sansa is not happy with something. I’d also take an educated guess this is from the first episode.
YeahClarke posted on twitter that if Hibberd is correct (and he usually is) then S8 would have to premiere in late April 2019 as episodes would need to finish before end of May.
These are the exact dates that @yeahclarke speculated as the most likely on Twitter. I am feeling we are probably not too far away from an official tease now and official confirmation of the month at least.
I would like to think we will get a full trailer by the end of the year with footage and dialogue.
“Best part of the animal.”
I wouldn’t expect any of that before the end of the year. They’ve always announced the premiere dates at the Winter TCA’s in January, except for last year when they announced it even later.
thank you for mentioning that.
i was always surprised more people did not pick up on the fact that the last time the sisters were together Arya had a lot of reason to mistrust Sansa so it was natural that once conflict started she would quickly revert to that view.
Its been exactly 1 year since S7 ended.
BeardedOnion,
Dany and Sansa will probably have some tension, this is ZERO surprise. But I expect Dany and Arya to get along. I don’t know exactly why but I always pictured this in my head. I also love the idea of Dany and Arya having a bond. Even if for just a few moments.
Jack Bauer 24,
Yeah, a teaser is highly unlikely this time of the year. Too soon. My guess is that the first teaser will drop in December, then we will have another in January, Plus the official date.
MMJ,
Well, maybe not their sex action part, but the meeting of Jon and Dany is the ultimate ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’, without a question. GRRM said himself. Their paths have been in parallels all these years for a reason. Also, Emilia and Kit have been knowing this for years. If Dany is indeed already pregnant at the beginning of season 8 (which I suspect she will be), their child will for sure have a pivotal importance in how everything is going to end, and also how everything is going to continue.
firstone,
Even Sansa and Melisandre have a better shot in hook up than Sansa and Jon lol, hell…even Arya and Hot Pie have more chance hahaha. Anyone who sees Something more than sibling care about Sansa and Jon is beyond delusional.
RedWolf,
I think he just looks like he missed her.
Mr Derp,
Even GRRM said himself that the meeting of Jon and Dany is the main point and the ultimate ‘ a Song of Ice and Fire’. There’s no misunderstanding on this.
Of course Arya will get along with Dany. Arya is a Targaryen warrior fangirl:
S2e7 Arya: “Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OTOiMQchKw
at 2:40: “Aegon…and his sisters”
3:04: “Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior…”
(FYI Look at future ASNAWP scoping out Tywin’s neck at 1:14)
Mr Derp,
100% true. Anyone who don’t see that Jon and Dany (especially in the show) are the most important characters is being blind this whole time.
Lunaselene,
even Arya and Hot Pie have more chance than Sansa and Jon lol. There’s literally zero prove that they could have something more than a sibling and completely platonic relationship. I honestly dont even know how anyone could see Jon ever kissing the girl he was raised his entire life to think it was his sister. It would have to be a Jon assassination to this happen. Jon would never. Plus, after 7×07 I think its pretty safe to say that Jon is completely (with soul, heart and body), focusing in his relationship with Dany. I think they are trying the whole stark bowl again with this, but I don’t see a Sansa vs Jon happening. This material was probably the less spoiler they had to show. Simple as that.
MMJ,
Don’t. They only put this because it’s the less spoiler thing they had. Sansa and Jon have one and only dynamic: a sibling and platonic one. So, they could try to hype the whole stark bowl again, but I doubt it. There’s no time left for this nonsense. The big war is coming and there is tons of things to happen on season 8. There will be probably tension between Sansa and Dany as expected, but I don’t see this lasting more than one episode. Like I said, they have little time and more important things to focus in season 8.
Clob,
Bll season 2 premiere in March. Got in April. I will love to have a cocktail marathon of my favorite shows. Big yes.
Jon and Sansa are not going to get married…. Queen Daenerys said what is going to happen when she met Jon Snow in S7 E3 The Queen’s Justice. …
A Targaryen will sit on the Iron Throne Aegon Targargon aka: Jon Snow and a Stark will be warden of the North aka: Sansa Stark –
Gwidhiel,
It won’t happen. There was zero indication of the possibility of Jon and Sansa as a something more than platonic..The GA audience never heard about this disgusting theories and when they knew in a article they got pretty horrified about it. Sansa was raised as his siblings. Even if him and Dany are related, they never knew this and were pretty much strangers to each other and getting attracted to one another. Thats why its acceptable and people ship jonerys. The possibility of Sansa and Jon is disgusting as the possibility of Arya and Jon in the series. It will never happen.
Well, Sansa is opening her arms to Jon. You can see the side of her face. Her cheek looks like she maybe smiling at him as he approaches. I need to see his hair better, but could his hair be braided? Dany’s cultural influence?
Shelle,
Can’t wait to see Arya and Dany bonding. I know they will. Arya and Dany are two strong queens, I’m sure they will get along.
Mr Derp,
Lmao. You nailed this one. This place is having some trolls lately, because i refuse to believe anyone not being a troll would think this dull promo means that D & D will do a love triangle in season 8. Lol. This hiatus is seriously making some serious brain damage in some people.
Jack Bauer 24,
It’s all the sex he was having for more than 30 days with Dany. Haha .His glowing and also his hair.
River,
I dont think Tyrion has feelings for her in the romantic side, just because I think he knows he doesn’t have any chance with Dany..but I think he is kind of in love in the way Dany treats him..like being treated like a human being for the first time and be respected..also, who wouldn’t be in love with Dany? I mean she is the most beautiful queen! And also is powerful and have dragons..is like seeing a dream just in front of their eyes..but yeah, it would be funny see all the tension with Jon-Dany-Jorah-Tyrion-Daario in the same place. Lol.
My guess is that 2 second season 8 tease will be the final 2 seconds of Season 8 Episode 1 – the first episode cliffhanger… everybody will have to wait another week to find out what sansa is looking at 🙂
On multiple rewatches and freeze frames (ha!), Sansa Stare is in two phases: first two frames are the unfocused, not happy look. Third frame she raises her gaze. Determined? Resolved? Can’t say for sure without full context. Also makes me wonder if this is before/after the original intros and Jon is trying to placate her. She learned early on not to show what she’s thinking around those she doesn’t trust, so if she was in eye shot of anyone she perceived as a potential threat, I think she’d sheathe her dagger eyes.
My main Jonsa feeling: I don’t think they’re in love. But if, when it all shakes down it’s politically advantageous for them to marry, I wouldn’t freak out. By then, this person “I never really thought of as a sibling until we were the only family left, but then found out was just my cousin” won’t seem so impossible to marry. Jon’s ga-ga for Dany, but I don’t think they did all that Ned/Cat (who also married out of politically expediency) paralleling in s6 just for kicks.
I’ll never understand why some people have to behave so childishly and abusively in response to people’s opinions on the fictional characters on a TV show.
There’s no excuse.
OK, I agree with folks who have said that there’s really no way to make reasonable predictions about what S8 has in store for us from this sliver of footage. That said, I’ll toss an idea into the ring about who Sansa might be looking at. My own head canon has Arya going to meet Jon in White Harbor, possibly to deliver a message to him that Sansa wouldn’t trust to a raven (e.g. maybe about playing down surrendering his kingship until the North gets to know Daenerys). I’m 100% on-board with the prospect of Team Stark Sisters in S8, and if that is how the story progresses, perhaps she’s meeting Arya’s eyes, asking silently “is it bad, really bad, or worse than we’d imagined?”
It is a puzzler. I’ve certainly butted heads with folks on various topics, including in this thread, and at times I’ve been exasperated if I feel the conversation is going in circles, but if I find myself without anything constructive to say in response to someone I just say nothing. Goodness, none of us know what’s going to happen in S8. We’re just speculating! I know I hold some very different opinions from Jay Targaryen, Mr. Derp, Clob, and many others here, but I really appreciate the way all of the aforementioned folks, and most others in this community communicate respectfully.
They paralleled Jon and Sansa with Ned/Cat, but they also paralleled them with Ned/Arya and Cat/Robb.
For example, Ned tells Arya that they can’t fight a war amongst themselves (1×03), same as Jon does to Sansa in (6×10).
The whole war council meeting before the BOTW also gave me vibes to the various scenes between Cat and Robb. Same with Sansa advising in S7 like Cat advised Robb.
It’s sort of neat how they’ve been able to this.
Grail King,
There is some truth to what you outline, but Jon was going door to door begging for banner men. I think he would have wanted to know that the Knights of the Vale were a possibility. IMO it was just wrong for Sansa to keep her LF alliance to herself and not trust Jon. Jon was risking everything. I’m not a Sansa hater btw. I think her character has grown over the years, and she is to admired for doing what she had to do to survive. She is a survivor. But she has some major flaws. She thinks she is being strategic by not sharing everything with Jon. But Jon explains to her from the ramparts at Winterfell that they need to be able to trust each other, since they have enemies all around them. Sophie even got a tattoo that says “the pack survives”. I hope Sansa gets that. I think she does, but unless the Starks (+ Stark/Targ) trust each other, it’s going to be a tough road ahead. The WW and KK are the real enemies, and I hope Sansa won’t go the route of Cersie and lose site of that. I hope Sansa doesn’t start getting territorial with the mother of dragons. They need all the help they can get to survive.
Thi Targaryen,
Oh, so now we know why Sansa looked upset! She was probably thinking: “Why can’t my hair be as shiny as Jon’s?” 😉
Tron79,
But how does she know it’s a possibility?
She refused him, because 1. what he did by selling her to the Boltons, 2.She believed her fathers words about the North and loyalty, only to find out differently because of Robb’s mistake. 3. after all the shit he did to her, Tyrion, Lysa do you honestly think she want him near her, or Jon, like Ramsey he’s a threat to them and he move to eliminate them.
As I said they traveled 1200 miles before she even thought they would need him, it took Robert a month to travel from KL to Winterfell, how long was she and Jon on the road and sea before she sent the Raven?.
As I said she could have mention to Jon before the battle, but she had no answers that she could give to : when,where, and how many; Jon’s plan depended on Ramsey charging them and Jon and company staying put; but Ramsey had someone Sansa and Jon didn’t, Rickon. Ramsey wouldn’t let Jon sit back for long before he bring his hostage out and as Sansa warned make Jon do what he shouldn’t do.
Add to that, LF plan was to arrive when both sides were depleted and mop up the Boltons, leaving the Stark forces weakened.
The results would be the same.
I think the hug was a honest hug, Jon looked weary, he also looked a bit proud at Sansa and as he gets close HER arms are open wide to except him in embrace, then we have a blip, (maybe they said words) then we have Sansa stare, I don’t think it’s a mean stare but it could be a UN-trusting stare at a person or group.
What did NCW say about Sansa that got possibly screwed up in translation: she’s either not trust worthy or she’s has problems with trusting others.
I think you are right on the money here. I suspect Jamie won’t reach Winterfell until episode 2 but when he does he won’t get a warm welcome. His only redemption may be to save a stark when it kicks off in presumably episodes 3 & 4.
To be honest I am expecting the first episode to largely cover reunions and interactions. I expect there to be tensions but the show has to give coverage of Jon and Arya, Jon and Bran, Dany having an uneasy welcome in the North, The Hound and Sansa, Sansa and Tyrion etc. these are all going to take up time in the first episode. This is why I doubt we will see Jamie in Winterfell apart from possibly the very end of the episode. Also Jon’s parentage reveal may be the climax of the episode so we get that and Jamie/Bran in episode two as the AotD approach Winterfell.
I’d guess we will only get a brief reminder of the White Walkers either with them attacking the Umber home or fighting the Nights Watch. We will also get a check in with Cersei and I’d guess we won’t see Theon or Euron.
Dyanna,
It’s lame, yeah. I’m guessing it’s aimed towards the casuals. Reminds them of the show coming back with a recap of what they haven’t seen or thought about in over a year.
RedWolf,
Hahaha you’ve got to be joking. Right?
Grail King,
Wait. This is still being discussed?
*Turns up music really loud to drown out the conversation*
Doesn’t work so plugs ears and runs from room.
🙂
Jon Snowed,
I wouldn’t be too happy at first if my brother finally came home but brought the baggage that is enemy Lannisters, Targaryen’s and barbarians in tow (Jamie could in fact meet up with them en route if he left soon after they did, I don’t remember if that goodbye scene with Cercei had timing clues). At the same time, I’d be happy to see him alive of course not to mention the fact he’s brought reinforcements for the coming war. But fact is he has succeeded in his Southern mission and that should make her respectful of him so without having seen the footage (not too anxious as it’ only 2 seconds right?) I would guess that she’s looking at Dany. It’s understandable for her to be suspicious, and even jealous, of her.
Ok I missed that one. Wonder what S8E3 title might be? The great war? Battle of Ice and Fire? The long night? Winterfell?(since something bad might happen here based on set spoilers) Time for Wolves?
Yeah bit of a cop out really. Although I’m whinging because I’m disappointed lol
Agree, Jon and Dany might end this show with them going to war with each other or ruling together and having lots of Targaryen babies, but the bottom line is that this is their story from the start. ASOIAF is their story, ice and fire is not the Night King and his army of the dead and Dany’s dragons 🙂
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I agree
GRRM originally wanted a Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle so I wouldn’t put it pass them(D&D) to explore that in some way come S8. Dany might be the new Arya in that triangle, why was Tyrion lurking near Dany’s bedroom though? He had this, that could have been me look haha maybe I’m overreaching here but I want Tyrion to find someone who will make him happy. If not Dany, someone else maybe Missandei if Greyworm idk die in battle? I want him to be happy and in love with someone nice and without any agenda whatsoever.
I just watched the clip and all I saw was Jon in close up walking towards someone and then Sansa’s eyes as she’s hugging presumably Jon. I didn’t see what people are saying about her arms stretched out to give him a hug or her side profile, nothing. As for Sansa’s look it’s hard to say cause we only see her eyes but to me they look abit plotting/devious. I don’t get the sense she is looking at any particular person.
What if this hug is when/after she learns of his true identity and attempts to show comfort to him but finds her feelings have run cold instead OR what if she realized she has romantic feelings for Jon and is resentful towards Dany?
arya and hotpie are the perfect match and sansa and tyrion. throw gendry at the red priestess for all i care. honestly, anyone who has not worked out yet to relegate all their pathetic family prejudices to the ‘who cares’ pile and get back to back with anyone who is breathing in an effort to save humanity against the nothingness does not deserve a place amongst the living. and that goes for anyone whether they be high born or low born.
I have to say you definitely have Sansa’s back and defend her well. Perhaps the results would have been the same as you said. It’s hard for me to get behind her decisions. She starts by lying at the war council about where she got the information about the Tullys. She lies right to their faces. Looking forward to season 8, I hope I’m able to see Sansa more the way you do. After the first glance, it looks like she may already be worrying about Dany. But it is hard to say with a clip of only a few seconds!
Some body help me out? I didn’t notice which shots were new??! they all seemed from season 7 to me.
Anybody have any stills?
Just browsing the comments – so we get a clip of Sansa and Jon hugging and that leads to 200 comments about the hug and that it could be a love triangle HAHAHA
come on
Ooh! Projecting S8 episode titles! That’s a fun exercise. BTW, I think all five of your suggestions are good candidates. My personal favorite, though I doubt it’ll be used, would be “A Dragon Princess.”
Dee Stark,
GIF
https://78.media.tumblr.com/6eabbba5c3c70ae6d1e98a077e0bf4e7/tumblr_inline_pe4n51cLJe1vzef6y_500.gif
Stills:
https://78.media.tumblr.com/b5e21d7a448119f885bf6a25d3da33b3/tumblr_inline_pe3vl9xTsb1rrl030_1280.png
https://78.media.tumblr.com/9acd02f327c07decf30a5a7a01322a58/tumblr_inline_pe3vruZYaH1rrl030_1280.png
River,
Uggh. Six episodes left, and we’re supposed to think there will be love triangles to sort out? No. Just no. Please, no.
#NoBabyDrama
#NoCouplings
#NoLoveTriangles
#WalltoWallASNAWP
#F*ckthe(Night)King
#NoMagicZygote
About Arya & Dany: My reply last night disappeared into the ether. I’m separating it into two parts and trying again ….
Aug. 28, 9:16 am
(Cont. from 9:16 am)
I think my reply was that Arya is a Targaryen warrior women fangirl (see S2e7 scene below), and will be impressed with Daenerys Targaryen – especially if she hears about Dany’s heroic rescue of the Snow Patrol.
S2e7 Arya: “Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OTOiMQchKw
at 2:40: “Aegon…and his sisters”
3:04: “Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior…”
(FYI Look at future ASNAWP scoping out Tywin’s neck at 1:14)
PS Come to think of it, Dany and Arya can compare notes and bond over Dany’s Khal BBQ and Arya’s House Frey wine tasting party; or Dany’s Tarly-roasting and Arya’s Frey moron sons-baking.
✅ 👸🏻 + 🧝🏻♀️
you strike me as a bit of a dunderhead. You have been spamming this forum in what appears to be some kind of effort to impose your philosophies and wishes onto the other readers here. Why would Danareys not consider Tyrion as a match? Because he is a dwarf? If that came into her reckoning then she would not only be a pleb as a normal person, she would also have no place in the world of nobility. If you do not understand this then you can not even begin to get your head around the world of nobility. When you marry as a noble you do not pick your suitor because they are appealing to your eye. They are more or less picked for you by mentors who have both eyes firmly fixed on the political landscape of the realm. How then is Tyrion not in the equation? If Jaime should fall (as seems highly likely) then Tyrion will become the patriarch of the lannister line. I would love to be privvy to an erudite explanation of how the patriarch of the lannister’s is not a viable option for a single queen of westeros. Danarerys understands this simple harsh reality, and it is why she left Dario behind in essos. It is what made rob a chump of a king. that he could not love a woman from volantis and put her aside for the good of the realm.
I love Dee’s comment “two seconds of a hug and 200 comments” WTF? ha
Safe to say the fandom is starving for content.
I would love to have seen this comment section if that was a hug between Jon and Arya. Have to get another server.
Well, yeah, a lot of it is about the hug shot but it’s branched out into several topics. I didn’t have a lot to say about the clip itself, but since we’re [here] may as well start spouting some nonsense. 😛
You forgot the STARE ! lol
This reminds me of pre-season 6 speculation when we were obsessing over the direction Arya was looking, and whether or not she was at the Inn at the Crossroads.
Yes I already have several titles in mind. For S8E3, I’m leaning towards “Winterfell,” based on what we know from that fire, something is going down at Winterfell. The series finale might be called, a dream of spring or time for wolves, but mine is “A Song of Ice and Fire,” if it ends with a union between you know who and you know who haha
But really what could be the series finale title for the show? like “the game ends,” “end game,” too on the nose and silly. This is also silly because the show is called GoT but what if the writers decide on “A Game of Thrones,” as the series finale title? If that episode is full of possible betrayals what could be more fitting for the final episode right?
That’s fine.
WRG to Sansa and Molestown, I say total trust issues, I also don’t think she feel Jon being happy that she did something that could be dangerous to her, and she doesn’t want LF involved with her family period.
Brienne called her on it, and we can see she hit a nerve with Sansa. I think Sansa also felt hopefully or naively her uncle would support them, but to keep LF out of the mix and possible judgement from Jon she changed the barer of the message.
It was a chance for more aide, we don’t know ( but a good guess would be Jon refusing LF ) if Jon accept LF, knowing what he did. Jon did choke him in the crypts after all.
Yep, there was a ton of speculation about that. I was almost certain that Ed Sheeran’s cameo was going to be as a minstrel and she was watching him perform at the inn. Wrong. I think I would have preferred that for his scene though. 🙂
Clob,
I agree. I wasn’t among the people who had a problem with the Ed Sheeran cameo, but I did think they could’ve done it differently that didn’t make it quite so obvious that it was him. It kind of took me out of the moment, but it wasn’t a big deal at all.
And the soldier who practically did everything but ask for Arya’s ID in order to give her a drink was a bit much for me. They were nice guys though.
However, I did enjoy the conversation when the soldier was discussing his newborn baby and that he had no idea whether it was a girl or boy. The line where he says that he hopes it’s a girl because girls take care of their father while the boys are off fighting someone else’s war. That was a great piece of conversation and it stuck with me.
Slow it down, we clearly see Sansa open wide to embrace him, we see her left side and red hair.
WRG to BOTB, yeah a bit LOL.
And if I slow it down just enough I think I also see a second gunman on the grassy knoll!
River,
Since the entire book series is ASoIaF and they haven’t used it yet I do believe they will for one of the episodes. I can see them titling it just “Ice and Fire” though. I guess it depends on how they want to use it, for which episode they’d use it. If they want to wrap the entire series with something that says, ‘and that’s the story,’ they could use it for the finale with the entire ASoIaF title. Although, like people have mentioned before, I could easily see them naming the finale “A Dream of Spring.” So, maybe that for e6 and “Ice and Fire” for e5. *shrug* It’s difficult to guess titles with no solid idea what happens when…
Mr Derp,
I did like the scene well enough. In hindsight I think I would have kept everything about it (*) but removed Ed’s character and used him elsewhere. I do think he could have been wondering around the Inn at the Crossroads performing for coin… moved to the background while ASNAWP and Hot Pie were talking.
* Everything else except the “are you old enough to drink” line. I don’t know what that was. >.>
the unburdened,
Hey! Let’s keep it civil, okay? Your reply (below) was prefaced with a wholly unnecessary – and prohibited – personal attack. There was nothing in Thi Targaryen’s comment that warranted a vituperative reply.
You wrote:
“you strike me as a bit of a dunderhead. You have been spamming this forum in what appears to be some kind of effort to impose your philosophies and wishes onto the other readers here…”
———–
From FAQ:
Q: What is the moderation policy when commenting on Watchers On the Wall ?
A: WatchersOnTheWall.com has an open commenting policy for the most part, but personal attacks on other commenters are not permitted…
River,
If they really want to troll us and get us hyped for the prequel, they could title S8e6 “The Long Night.”
Ten Bears,
In that case they should name episode 1 of season 8 “The Long Wait”
Less than 2 seconds! Not good enough. At all.
Well I don’t know. It seems to depend on who you ask. Apparently within those <2 seconds some were able to draw the conclusion that Jon and Sansa will get married and Sansa's definitely giving Dany the evil eye. Maybe if we stare at those <2 seconds long enough we'll be able to unlock the ending to it all!
Mr Derp,
I thought the scene with the friendly Lannister soldiers in S7e1 evoked the spirit of the books’ famous “Broken Man” speech better than the show’s version (by Brother Ray in S6e7 “The Broken Man”), e.g., the idealistic view of war as an adventure vs. its horrible reality; and boys finding themselves fighting and dying in “someone else’s war.”
(Excepts – S7e1)
Soldier #2: “All my life, I wanted to see the Red Keep, the Sept of Baelor, the Dragonpit. Then when I finally make it, they wouldn’t let me within a mile of the Red Keep, the Sept of Baelor’s blown to hell, and the Dragonpit is a damn ruin.”
Soldier #3: “The people who live there, they’d skin you alive if they could make two coppers off your hide.”
Soldier #2: “Worst place in the world.”
***
Arya: “You’re a long way from home. I’m sure you’ve had some adventures, though.”
Soldier #1: “Yeah, endless adventures. They’ll be singing about us for a thousand years.”
(Soldiers laugh)
Soldier #2: “The truth is when we left home, we couldn’t wait to get away. But now we’ve been gone a while, we can’t wait to get home.”
Soldier #1: “I just think about my dad out there on his boat all alone. I ought to be out there with him.”
Soldier #3: “My wife’s just had our first baby.”
***
Soldier #3: “Girls take care of their papas when their papas grow old. Boys just go off to fight in someone else’s wars.”
That’s what she…
Nope, can’t do it. 😀
LOL
Surely we will soon see images of 50x magnification of Sansa’s eyes, which will allegedly show us the reflection of what she’s looking at?
Gwidhiel,
Oooh, I like it! What we really need on top of that is a body language expert who will take the time to tell us just exactly what’s going on here, lol. 55% of communication is nonverbal don’t you know.
Mr Derp,
Heh, exactly. It’s been an interesting thread, certainly. Observing myself and my own reactions to ideas floated here, and then how other people post and conduct themselves, I can see how online discourse gives people tunnel vision and encourages them to double down on their beliefs. And this is just about a TV show!
Gwidhiel,
I know, right? Just imagine how heated the debates would get if we actually discussed real life issues…
…actually, I’d rather not imagine it. Nevermind, lol.
i am sure that a body language expert would come up with a comment something like, ‘sophie is quite obviously annoyed with the director telling her for the umpteenth dozen time, ‘you are a tree, swaying in the breeze, I NEED YOU TO BE THAT TREE.’
That is exactly why I’m here. My thoughts about what will happen on this show don’t keep me awake at night, whereas the real world …
Surely that’s what he says to Isaac, no?
Congratulations to us all! 293 comments extrapolating from a two second snippet that could mean anything – or nothing at all.
Imagine when we get a real trailer or set photos.
Theons Richard,
Hahaha right?!? I mean come on.
Clob,
mhhhmmm hahaha! missed you guys
Grail King,
Oh God.
Mr Derp,
While we’re at it,
http://media.gizmodo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Capture-2.jpg
#ASNAWP
👸🏻👟👟
Ten Bears,
Our brains will melt.
Ten Bears,
Whoever gets in her way
Gwidhiel,
lol , yeah 🙂 well it was just director speak, just allegorical.
btw @ S4E9 of the rewatch, looks like i may even fit in a re-read before season 8 starts 🙂
i can’t wait for this. the two most dangerous women of Planetos talk kitchen business. this deserves an own thread, just like the Night King’s tweeting.
Dammit, that’s twice I’ve snorted my covfefe.
That is a drawback of this medium, no topic-specific threads.
This thread pretty much describes my chronic migraines.
COME ON, PEOPLE! Sansa isn’t glaring or plotting or pissed off or in love – she’s simply preoccupied with something on her mind that’s less exciting – how the grain stores are doing, the best stitch to use on the Stark Winter Collection for fashion week, or whether anyone will find Lord Glover’s body.
Or maybe the fact that the Wall has come down!!!
Exactly! Some minor, unimportant thing. 😜
“Jon, why does your girlfriend’s dragon have blue eyes?”
“Oh, son of a….”
Dany: “He’s still got him.”
Sandor: “Got what?”
Dany: “My dragon. Viserion.”
Sandor: “Of course you named your dragon,”
Dany: “Lots of people name their dragons.”
Sandor: “Lots of c*nts.”
[Sorry…]
Pigeon,
We don’t take kindly to common sense in this thread. Please keep your posts to nonsense only 😉
I keep forgetting that none of them know yet that the NK is flying around on Viserion (other than Tormund & Beric). Jon should probably expect the possibility having witnessed a ‘raising’ before but hasn’t mentioned it. I’d think Daenerys will have a hard time seeing it the first time.
Clob,
Yea, that’ll be heartbreaking for sure. It’s bad enough he died, now she’s gotta see him come back to life as the NK’s slave.
A dragon is no slave and Dany is the breaker of chains. I think she has a new set of wight slaves to set free in season 8.
Bran knows, doesn’t he? I thought he warged a flock of ravens to fly to the Wall and saw the NK take out the Wall.
Unrelated but whatever: did Gendry go to KL with the wight expedition? I don’t recall seeing him there but also didn’t see him at the Wall with Beric & Tormund.
Gwidhiel,
Yes, Bran should know. He was watching the Wall fall from the Weirwood Tree. I assume he’s told Sansa, and that’s why she looks the way she does in that 1-2 sec. clip from season 8. Or not, who knows.
I don’t think they’ve actually answered where Gendry is yet. He definitely wasn’t at the parlay in KL. Not a good idea to bring a Baratheon around Cersei lest you wish to kill said Baratheon.
Didn’t see him at the Wall when it came down, but didn’t see him on S.S. Boatsex either. My assumption is that he’s on the boat headed back to Winterfell with the rest, but can’t say that for sure yet.
Yeah, or Daenerys for that matter. If I had to guess, Davos hadn’t wanted “Clovis” to reveal his parentage to Jon not so much because he feared Jon’s reaction but out of concern about how Daenerys might react to The Usurper’s bastard son.
Mr Derp,
ss boatsex indeed :p just like you ppl to assume that the u s navy must be involved. why wouldn’t it be the hms boatsex, or west/ess boatsex, or whatever rather than ss boatsex? :p :p
Ah yes, that’s right, Nutbar!Bran should know. Hopefully he tells someone without it necessary to specifically ask. 🙂
I’ve been assuming that Gendry Maratheon returned with the ship to Castlevania and stayed there when the others went to Knot’s Landing. He joined to fight with Jon so I think he’ll stick with him until Winterfell (and D&D write him something specific to do).
Clob,
Episode 3:
Winterfell is suddenly attacked by the AOTD…
Everyone looks to Bran like why the hell didn’t you say anything?
Bran: Shrug. “You didn’t ask”.
Collective eye-rolls and groans abound.
What makes you think I’m American?
Ok, yea, I’m American, lol.
Are they pulling the “Sansa is gonna betray Jon” AGAIN? Three seasons doing it. Com´on HBO marketing teams! Surely you can do better!
Next promo put a shot of Jon in a deathly situation because we already know he´s gonna survive it.
This thread was much more entertaining to read than the actual clip, so I’m glad I finally made it through everything.
To the peeps above, Gendry has to be with the boat on the way to Winterfell, just because I feel like they would’ve shown him on the Wall with Beric and Tormund if he was there, and he inevitably has to reunite with Arya again so taking him to Winterfell would be the most logical scenario.
River,
As to speculating on episode titles… I’m game. My best guesses for the season:
1. (A Song of) Ice and Fire/ Reunion
2. A Lion’s Oath/ The Lion and the Raven
3. Winterfell
4. The Queen’s Betrayal/ The King’s Justice
5. The Long Night
6. A Dream of Spring
I feel like 3 and 6 are pretty strong guesses… others are obviously pretty big leaps. Episode 1 I feel very ambiguous about and episode 6 is obviously a fairly confident assumption.
the unburdened,
The U.S. Navy uses U.S.S. these days, not S.S.
S.S. is outdated as it refers to a sailing ship. Thankfully, we no longer have to power ships via the wind.
I think they’ll use the titles, “Hearthbroken,” “Dragonheart,” “Winterhell,” “dakogon syt aōha ābrar,” “The Little Brother,” and “Dragon’s Landing” 😀
EPISODE I THE UNDEAD MENACE
EPISODE II ATTACK OF THE WIGTHS
EPISODE III REVENGE OF THE WALKERS
EPISODE IV A NEW HOPE
EPISODE V THE WOLVES STRIKE BACK
EPISODE VI RETURN OF THE DRAGON
Since we’ve had several mentions of direwolves in this endless thread, I don’t suppose I somehow missed any production rumors from Calgary…
<> I guess the dragons will be even fatter and tastier for the final season!
I tend to equate Bran to something like Google. A lot of info, but a search needs to be prompted to get the answers.
LadyGoodman,
Unfortunately all of the wolves were tied up in filming season 12 of Heartland. Word is that the family friendly show is going to get bloody messy with a sequence similar to The Grey. Ty finds himself in another predicament while trying to save sick beavers in Banff National Park. 😉
Seriously though, I don’t think there was any news related to that.
Pigeon,
Direwolves went into extintion 65 millions years ago.
I watched it again with fresh eyes and I see a bit of the Jonsa vibe in that scene. Sorry not sorry lol. I don’t know why they’d want to give that impression though because I can’t see it happening.
Grail King,
You’re right. Don’t know how I missed it first time around! The outstretched arms seemed to belong to someone with a larger body than Sansa’s tho…probably just camera angle.
Gwidhiel,
With Isaac emotionless voice.
Eonwe,
My cat’s breath smells like cat food!
Eonwe,
Like your name, by the way.
Here’s how I think the Night King is killed in Kings Landing…
Then Arya Stark takes off her mask and sits on the Iron Throne!!!!!!
MMJ,
Ooh, I like the idea of Aegon and his sisters!!
firstone,
…and the closing scene is….
https://i.imgur.com/Wk6lyQ7.jpg
Sansa and Jon won’t marry either in the show or the books. I know many people don’t like it, but it’s perfectly obvious that Jon and Dany will marry in the show (Jon won’t let her have a bastard, and yes she’s pregnant) and it’s highly probable this will happen in the books too, if they ever come. Don’t worry, it won’t last, either because of a Nissa-Nissa scenario (Dany’s Treason for Love?) or another suitably tragic scenario. If Sansa ends up married in the books ( Harry the Heir won’t go the distance) it will be either to Sweet Robin or Tyrion.
Geez, if less than 2 seconds of footage generates this many posts so quick I shudder to think at what’ll happen after the first trailer! LOL
Jay Targ,
Actually to me the look Sansa give’s makes me think Dany is right there and its her first time seeing her.
1. The Last Hero
2. Three Heads of the Dragon
3. Kings of Winter
4. God’s Eye
5. The Sword of the Morning
6. A Dream of Spring
336 comments for a 3 second clip? Wow! We’re starving for anything right now.
Jay Targ,
I find that storyline to be unacceptable. If they do it, this will be my last season with this show.
Dominic Matteo,
i feel that her expression better reflects someone who is choosing their words wisely, rather than just blurting something out and be left feeling that they have contracted foot in mouth disease. i feel that she must have something to tell him.
Thought it was his destiny, but the paralysis was kinda somehow part of that? Like he lost one ability, started to gain another…but even if he would’ve been an able-bodied raven, I feel like at this point he might be basically over and beyond that, absorbed as he is in the visions and not really being “Bran” anymore. I don’t think he’s like, coming up with ways to get back at Jaime or something, but more likely to have accepted that this was his path. ;p
(^ He sure took his sweet time telling his sisters the truth about Baelish, though. xD I figure his role in S8 will be more central and proactively useful.)
I’ve always pictured Dany & Arya getting on well. =D
Sansa on the other hand, well, who knows. 8/ Just read the Culturess article that asks, “Will Sansa betray Jon and flip to Team Cersei?” I dunno, are we still wondering that sort of thing by the final season? Is that part of what Sophie’s been teasing with her talk of betrayals? I see fans say things like, “I’m so tired of Sansa being in conflict with the ‘good guys’ and other women, I want to see her join forces with them and work together…” And I think, “Well, then, do you really like her all that much? Or just the person you wish she was? I can’t say I blame you; I’ve never liked her much and have most often just been frustrated with her!”
Jonsa, oy…yeah, I can’t quite bring myself to dignify that with more of a response than to say that imagining a sibling relationship turning into a cousin romance is pukier than Jon/Dany (which I also don’t ship.) But at least they had no notion of being at all related. There’s nothing to back that strange ship up, anyway, if anyone is actually legitimately serious about it. Of course they were going to give us a little “nothing” clip as the first glimpse of the season. It’s still sweet and intriguing for what it is. Feels like a probable assumption that Sansa’s glare would be directed at Jon’s new entourage and/or Dany in particular, but it *could* be anything…just looking up, thinking, gazing at someone else, expressing concern about something…or simply having a case of RBF (Resting B!tch-Face) that’s milder than Cersei’s, but still there. XD
And it will surely be a long, long night before the prequel arrives.
I too would agree there’s a strong chance that S8E3 will be Winterfell centric, and it will be a heart breaker of an episode, more like “The Door” part II. They might end the series with ‘a dream of spring,’ I prefer ‘a game of thrones’ to bookend the series, but that is a long shot since the show is called game of thrones. Why is your episode 2, a lion’s oath? is that cause of Jaime? I’m assuming Bran’s the raven right?
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
thank you!!!!
You think we will get confirmation with the first full trailer than Jack? I am guessing that’s November at the earliest.
that must have been really tiny dire wolves… actually, they quit around 10’000 years ago.
Just some written ‘out loud’ brainstorming of mine after reading that line…
If the pilot is good enough to get a greenlight for series from HBO right away I wouldn’t be surprised if they premiere in a shorter time frame from S8 than we’ll have waiting for S8. This wait is going to probably be at least 20 months!! It will also depend on WHEN they actually film the pilot. Haven’t we heard later this fall but then perhaps early next year? GoT was greenlit less than five months from starting pilot filming and premiered thirteen months later. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s possible the series/season is ordered even before GoT concludes and already be moving into production. That’s an optimistic point of view with everything going swimmingly of course. 😀
I was mostly joking with my episode titles a bit earlier in the thread, but not quite as much with “Winterhell.” I figure since some shit is probably going to go down it will look more like Hot Pie’s name for it than the actual. 🙂
Shelle,
When did Sansa not side with the good guys, when did she betray anyone for you to be sick of her betrayals ??? Sophie said that about the entire season not her character.
Clob,
I actually wouldn’t be surprised with Winterhell. I could also see Winter Fell, just because I think the castle was named after the first Long Night with winter “falling” there.
You know, she is CLEARLY planning to betray her family to side with the woman who desperately wants to torture and kill her, the woman who let her dad die, who killed her wolf, who let her be tormented for years by her deranged son, who constantly belittled her and destroyed her childhood dreams. Doesn’t everyone see it? That character from S1 has clearly had zero character development and is still the same little girl.
Like, people forget she was the first Stark who gave a shit about reclaiming Winterfell and her homeland. She’s suddenly going to throw that work under the bus for…. what exactly? Being appointed lady of the North, something she rejected when offered by Jon?
A certain segment just holds and will always hold irrational hatred for Sansa lol. The fact people believe she’s going to team with Cersei is honestly rib cracking considering she’s the only one who sees her as a threat right now.
BeardedOnion,
I agree with this, but I also find it interesting because at the top of this thread you stated that Sansa won’t like Dany because of trust issues. If Sansa has gained the character development that you claim then it shouldn’t take long for her to take to Dany rather than the opposite. I think at first, you will be correct though. They will and should see her as a threat without question. However, I doubt it will take long for them to warm up to the dragon queen once they find out that Dany is trustworthy and has their best interests at heart. At least, that’s my take. We shall find out in….hmmm..only about 8 months, lol.
I believe Dany has given Sansa legit reasons to be wary of her. She’s brought violent nomads to her lands with short notice and her presence makes the North and Vale highly toxic, for arguably good reason. Plus, the news of her burning Sam’s family for not bending the knee will probably not go down well.
Honestly, I do think Dany would love Sansa & Arya and that they would love her if preexisting conditions weren’t here and if the upcoming revelation wouldn’t spoil everything. Sansa and Dany have lots in common and seem like they would be great friends, but I don’t think this will be the case because of the reasons above.
BeardedOnion,
I’m honestly so sick of some people in the fandom who have turned Sansa into the new skyler white, she’s so hated without any reasons, and the betrayal angle has always been ridiculous if you actually pay attention to what she says. it’s also rather funny that in the end Jon was the one to technically betray the north.
Mr Derp,
Plus Sansa and Dany have so much in common.
My personal belief is that there’s no time for that. At least, there won’t be any time for that once the AOTD comes knocking on Winterfell’s doorstep. I think Sansa will approve of Dany once she sees for herself that Dany will risk everything to protect the North from the AOTD as well as Cersei. She’s already risked everything to prove that the AOTD is real. I’m also not sure that Sansa will care about what happened to the Tarly’s. Especially when you consider they betrayed Olenna Tyrell to fight for Cersei, Sansa’s #1 enemy. I also think Arya would take to Dany pretty quickly, especially when you think back to season 2 during her conversations with Tywin about the Dance of Dragons.
How do you ultimately see all of this playing out if Sansa and Dany will never get along or establish any trust with each other? Do you foresee betrayal on the horizon?
But what fun would that be? Sansa is an easy target for fans to hate – she was initially presented as an unlikable stereotype of a shallow, self-absorbed, and above all stupid girl. And let’s face it: the show has gone out of its way for years to suggest to viewers that they should mistrust Sansa, and many people are all too happy to oblige.
It’s interesting to compare the current level of dislike and mistrust of Sansa among fans with how many people (myself included) are willing to believe that redemption (to one extent or another) is possible for Jaime Lannister or The Hound. I do think some of that is because the show has been more direct in showing The Hound’s “rebirth” and changed beliefs, while keeping Sansa’s thoughts and motives more opaque, because they’re counting on the drama they can create that way. But the contrast makes me wonder if people in general are less able/willing to modify perceptions of females who initially give negative impressions. In GoT at least I can’t think of any female character besides Sansa who has had a “redemption” arc – anyone?
Mr Derp,
they all ultimately get along with danareys after a short grrr period. but i am fascinated how everyone thinks that arya will take to danareys like a duck to water. lol , it seems bizarre to me. arya is much more likely to take to someone like the waif naturally if it wasn’t for the fact that the waif had it in for her. but danareays head has far to much much girly crap in it to keep arya interested. danareys wil attract missendai and sansa with all her girly crap. but she will not hold arya’s interest for long. maisy williams might be interested in all that crap but arya most definitely is not. she would much rather discuss the best way to sharpen a dagger than, ‘how is he in bed, giggle giggle.’
the unburdened,
I couldn’t disagree more. Arya has a respect and admiration for strong female characters and Dany is a strong female character. It doesn’t have to get any more complicated than that.
Especially when Arya finds out that Dany was willing to sacrifice everything to save Jon from certain death.
Gwidhiel,
Why would Sansa need a “redemption” arc ??
And I don’t agree with what you said, if you actually consider what she does from her prospective there’s nothing vague about her actions, she just plays her cards to her chest and has a lot of trust issues. However when you consider her actions she always tries to do what she thinks is good. If you mean the campaign for season 7 then it was all obviously hype and trying to get the fans exited. It’s just that she comes across as in the way for jon snow to be badass and she often voices her opinion without holding back, you can’t really have a female character oppose the male hero, case in point,Skyler White.
I do however agree with what you say about the fandom’s perception of female characters, if they don’t make mistakes they’re mary sues, if they make mistakes they’ll never be forgiven for them.
No, thank you.
Please, no more people need to join The Inexplicable Daenerys Targaryen Fan Club.
Surely some characters in-universe that aren’t moustache-twirling villains should be allowed to not think the sun shines out of her backside.
We’ve already had Tyrion, Jorah, Varys, Jon (apparently) and many others fawning over her with little substantive on-screen explanation.
Frankly, I think the Stark sisters are the prime candidates for founding the I Don’t Trust But Will Humour Daenerys Targaryen In The Meantime As Long As She Remains Reasonable And It Benefits My Family Club.
Hopefully Jaime would be the third member. And Sam could be an honorary member, since she’s already killed his family.
Nobody is suggesting that Arya might be drawn to Daenerys because of those sorts of things, nor that they’ll have ‘girly talks.’ She’s likely to initially see the conquering warrior woman mounted on a dragon that will remind her of the stories of Rhaenys and Visenya she has had so much adoration for. Like Arya, Daenerys is a “doer” more so than a talker. She’s going to want to be involved in the actual fight and Arya should respect that.
Mr Derp,
And also I’ve said this in an earlier post, Bran should be able to explain why Jon ‘bend’ his knee to Dany. He’s a walking search engine, he has access to all information from the past. It would totally be ludicrous for Bran to just let the infighting and distrust persist while the NK and his army continue to add new members by attacking the northern houses one by one.
How stupid or how prideful are these northern lords to rebuff Daenerys and her army and her 2 full grown dragons? They wouldn’t stand a chance against the AoTD without her, so for them to be prideful at this point would be foolish, very much so foolish.
Mr Derp,
It really should be more complicated than that. The characters and their relationships ring increasingly hollow when they’re based on such a brief and superficial basis.
Arya liking Daenerys simply because she admires “strong women” and appreciates her saving Jon’s life undermines the depth of her character and increasingly renders Daenerys one-dimensional too.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I’m basing all of this on where I think D&D will go with it. It has nothing to do with what I want or don’t want.
Dany saved Jon’s life and yes, she is a “strong woman” in a time and era when that’s ridiculously uncommon. Those are very good reason to like Dany, not dislike her.
I would argue it’s just as one-dimensional for Arya to dislike Dany despite the fact that she’s there to help them. There’s things to like about her and there’s things to be wary of as well. It’s not just one or the other as you seem to be suggesting, which is rather one-dimensional.
Well, let’s just stick with show!Sansa (although my view of her is certainly informed by book!Sansa):
1. She was just in general a bratty, unhelpful sister to Arya in S1.
2. She failed to stand up to Joffrey when he was threatening Micah in by the river (I’d have thought much better of her if she’d even just run to get adult help – I don’t actually blame her for not intervening in that situation, but she just stood by and whined at everyone).
3. When directly questioned by Robert and Ned about what had gone down between Joffrey and Arya, she claimed amnesia (and yep, I can understand the pressure she was under, but a) there still was an ugly truth to be told, no matter how difficult, and b) that episode should have been enough to put her off Joffrey for good. But she was still clinging to her Princess/Queen dreams.)
4. She initially fangirled the heck out of Cersei, even after C had demanded that Lady be put down in Nymeria’s stead. It took more than it should have for Sansa to recognize that the Lannisters were malevolent, despite their high positions and physical beauty.
I found her frustrating and insufferable in S1. S2-3 I concurred with Varys’s assessment of her “a babe in the woods.” I started to find her interesting S4, and I certainly didn’t hold her accountable for what Littlefinger did to her crazy Aunt Lysa, nor even for covering for him by lying to the Lords of the Vale about what had happened.
And after that, as far as I’m concerned there’s nothing to accuse her of (lots of others disagree, citing her failure to tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale in S6 – and that’s reasonable, it’s just not how I see it).
It’s not that Sansa has never done anything wrong – she has. But it’s my view that she has more than atoned for her early misdeeds/youthful mistakes, and has been very steady in her commitment to her family and The North. Not everyone agrees with that.
Once understanding and past the confusion why Jon would bend the knee to Daenerys does Arya have any better or deeper reason to DISlike her? She was not the one that killed the Starks no more than Ned is at fault for Rhaegar. She’s come to join the fight to save Winterfell, their lives and the rest of The North, so what real reason should she have?
Perhaps the stance one takes boils down yet again to whether the VIEWER likes or dislikes a character.
She did? I thought it was Benjen who saved Jon. I thought it was weird as f*ck that they had Benjen save Jon in that ridiculous, misbegotten subplot, after straining belief with Daenerys & dragons’ miraculous in-the-nick-of-time arrival. But that’s how they decided to play it, and I assume that was done for some reason besides keeping us at the stupid frozen lake for another 5 minutes after Dany & co.’s departure.
Gwidhiel,
Lol, k, let me re-phrase…Dany RISKED everything to save Jon’s life, but he refused because his savior complex kicked into overdrive as per usual.
It doesn’t change what she did for him.
Ah, well when you put it that way, I agree. 🙂
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I concur. Neither of the Stark sisters has any reason to become Dany’s fangirl: Sansa has a lot of political concerns, in case of Arya it should be more personal (in her eyes no woman will be good enough for her beloved Jon), but one way or another both sisters are primed to become overprotetive and seek to save their naive brother from this self-entitled foreign dragon whore.
However, I expect that to serve Dany’s character development more than that of the Satrk sisters. In other words, disapproving sisters will serve as a challenge to Dany – the vedy least, she has to learn to deal with disapproval otherwise than by means of dragonfire. But there might be more to that, too. IMO, plotwise Dany needs some legit reason not to take Jon’s true parentage revelation for granted. And here it is: Jon’s parentage reveal will come from the man, whose father and brother Dany has just burned alive + there will be two disapproving Stark sisters. Dany will have every reason to think that the whole story about Jon being the true heir to the IT has been invented by Sam and the Starks to put her down and do something impulsive.
Mr Derp,
Not really.
Arya disliking Daenerys despite her professed admiration for the likes of Visenya Targaryen and her love for Jon, would make her a more complicated character. Placing her experiences, her cynicism, her assessment of the circumstances, etc. ahead of her own personal feelings.
She didn’t even trust her own bloody sister, despite the fact that Jon apparently did. For her to abandon any character depth the moment Daenerys walks onto the scene would be a tragedy. But one which D&D may be inclined to make and some people are apparently desperate to see.
And the more people who fall into line to worship Daenerys, the more she becomes this one-dimensional goddess who everybody inevitably ends up adoring. If it’s a foregone conclusion that Sansa and Arya (and Sam and Jaime and the Northern Lords and so on) will end up liking Daenerys then where’s the drama? Just release the battle sequences and a picture of Daenerys on the Iron Throne and forget about the rest.
Once again some of the phrasing being used on the topic is oozing with bias and evident individual character hate. 😛
And yet Arya now trusts Sansa after a period of getting to know each other again. Again, there’s no reason why this couldn’t also happen with Arya and Dany.
Exactly. Her own personal feelings would probably be to dislike Dany at first, but if she puts her own personal feelings aside as you put it, she should do whats right for the greater good and team up with Dany since she’s there to help them.
I get what youre saying, but no one needs to worship her. That’s an exaggeration. I’m not talking about worship or fangirling. I’m talking about respect, and I don’t see why Arya/Sansa/Dany wouldn’t eventually get to that point. Mature people work together for the greater good despite differences. I think these characters are mature enough to do that. Not give in to petty b.s. while the AOTD is knocking at your door.
I think you’re seriously underestimating what D&D may have in store for us in season 8. There doesn’t need to be betrayal after betrayal in order for season 8 to be epic. I’m sure there will be plenty of drama to be had. And honestly, that’s not the kind of drama I’d want anyway. We’ve already had season after season of personal squabbles. I’m ready for them to put that stuff to bed and kick some ass together.
I like this comment and agree with it 100% sansa was a shit, and then she grew up. just like we all did.
Clob,
If everything I’ve written is invalid because of an alleged bias, then so is everything you write. Trying to dismiss people’s opinions on this basis is cheap and unnecessary.
Primary meaning for the ‘fell’ in Winterfell is most likely the geographic definition:
“A fell (from Old Norse fell, fjall, “mountain”) is a high and barren landscape feature, such as a mountain range or moor-covered hills. The term is most often employed in Fennoscandia, the Isle of Man, parts of Northern England, and Scotland.”
(Wikipedia)
Secondary meaning is most likely the adjective ‘fell’ meaning ‘deadly.’ This would be a neat shout-out to Tolkien:
““The Brandybucks were blowing the Horn-call of Buckland, that had not been sounded for a hundred years, not since the white wolves came in the Fell Winter [Third Age, 2911-2912], when the Brandywine was frozen over.”
(The Fellowship of the Ring, “A Knife in the Dark”)
‘Fell’ as the past tense of the verb ‘fall’ is at best the tertiary meaning, IMO.
Mr Derp,
Obviously, they’re all going to have to work together. The original argument was why Arya would supposedly take to Daenerys so readily.
Neither Sansa nor Arya needs to like, trust or even get along with Daenerys for them to work together against the AotD. And as far as I’m concerned the characters and the drama will be better served if they don’t.
Not least because, with only 6 episodes remaining, any positive relationships developed between strangers are going to feel tenuous and superficial at this late stage.
The fact that we’re talking about relationships with Daenerys, a character whom people have been falling over themselves to worship and adore for 7 seasons already, just exacerbates the potential for cheapening the characters’ relationships unnecessarily.
Inga,
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I also think the Sam/Daenerys issue has the potential to undermine Jon and Daenerys’ relationship one way or the other. Your suggestion is an interesting take on the situation.
Two thumbs up for this. And if Bran sees all and knows all, he will be able to notify the rest of his clan that Dany’s motivation to help the Northerners against the AotD is not purely altruistic – that her whole cause is much more driven by her own sense of entitlement/destiny to rule Westeros. Not that a wary alliance shouldn’t be forged until the immediate threat to all humanity is eliminated, but with emphasis on the ‘wary.’ The Stark sisters would be wise not to share all their thoughts with Dany – especially if she seems to be leading Jon around by the nose. I for one want to see Jon set some boundaries on their relationship and continue to exercise his leadership skills. And Arya should be no more worshipful of Dany than she is of Brienne.
That’s an interesting idea.
Haha, the two common suspects are at it again 🙂 #sorrynotsorry
Firannion,
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I agree about what we’re likely to see between Daenerys and the Stark sisters.
Nope, I do not believe so. That was a typical defensive response, but in this case I was not “trying to dismiss (your) opinion,” but rather stating that you’re presenting it with language that is very much ‘oozing’ in said manner. I, along with Mr Derp, River… were giving reasonable scenarios how the two could find friendship and respect that are not out of line with their personalities and the circumstances that they’re likely to be in during the season. There’s not a whole lot bias or anything predetermined about the characters in there. You’re not willing to entertain them nor even acknowledge that these unions in scenes could even make sense. Without seeing what and how scene discussions take place you claim it would be character assassination and go directly to the, “And the more people who fall into line to worship Daenerys, the more she becomes this one-dimensional goddess who everybody inevitably ends up adoring.” That’s a pretty scornful manner to address a character, whom at this time is still on the “good side” of the story at this time. One that also seemed to be seeing things a little more broadly at the end of S7 than her previous narrow focus.
I wasn’t solely addressing you by the way. Inga sounded like Cersei or Randyll Tarly with, “one way or another both sisters are primed to become overprotective and seek to save their naive brother from this self-entitled foreign dragon whore.” 😛
I wasn’t saying you can’t write what you want to be argumentative or get on your bad side, just making a comment that the method was putting some pretty heavy hate-weight on a character. 🙂
House Snark is indeed powerful around here. 😜
This all makes a great deal of sense to me. We’ve had endless examples of other characters throwing over their previous agendas to take up Dany’s cause. It’s high time that Dany be expected to accommodate the priorities and concerns of others. And it shouldn’t take an existential threat to all sentient life forms, or an evil as gross and egregious as mass enslavement, to get her to consider that what someone else wants to achieve may have validity equal to what she wants to achieve. It’s her tendency toward megalomania that makes those of us who don’t especially like her…not especially like her. I’d like to see a Dany by the end who, like book!Dany, longs for the little house with the red door and the lemon tree as much as she feels that she must ‘be a dragon.’ That would be character development.
Mr Derp,
“We’ve already had season after season of personal squabbles. I’m ready for them to put that stuff to bed and kick some ass together.”
———–
Amen. 👸🏻🧝🏻♀️
Upon arriving at Winterfell, Dany should just be like: Hey y’all I lost one of my dragons because I had to save Jon and his peers at that frozen lake where they were surrounded by WW. I didn’t have to but I did. Also I’m here with an army and my 2 other dragons, my children really to risk everything to fight for y’all and save your asses. You guys decide, if you wish well I could just go back to Essos and leave y’all here to die so no biggie, your choice not mine 😀 Dany #truthteller #IGotNoTime4ThisShizz
Two seconds of Sansa = 390-comment flamewar. I’m impressed.
Arya! Arya! Arya!
Osha, who started out ready to kill Bran and quickly became his protector. But she’s not a major character.
I suppose some would argue that Melisandre ‘redeemed’ herself by rezzing Jon, but I for one still find her pretty hateful. No sign of remorse for all the people she burned at the stake – only regret that she picked the wrong Azor Ahai.
I think the Season 8 episode 5 title will be – The Many-Faced God
Ah, thank you! I really did wrack my brain trying to think of one, but neglected to hit on Osha. But yeah, not a major character.
Yeah, I’d considered and discarded Melisandre as an example of a redeemed female character for that reason.
Here’s a S8 imagination challenge: what would Cersei have to do to be redeemed? Is it even possible? (Note: this is NOT a prediction, nor even wishful thinking. Just a thought exercise).
I see people saying how drama between the Stark girls and Dany can’t happen because the AOTD will be knocking soon, but they forget there is more to this story than that and that the showdown with Cersei is likely to provide the drama the foundation it really needs to start off.
Season 8 Episodes 1-6
1. 3 Headed Dragon meets the 3 eyed Raven
2. Redemption
3. The Great War
4. House Starkgaryen
5. The Many-Faced God
6. A Dream of Spring
Gwidhiel,
So do I.
Fun challenge!
Presuming that you mean TV!Cersei:
D & D must’ve had some reason to insert that speech in Season 1 where Cersei claims to have had a black-haired son with Robert, who died in infancy. Leaving aside the facts that this does not happen in the books; that it may have been intended simply to plant in viewers’ minds the contradiction of Baratheons all being ‘black of hair’ while her children were all blonde; that it doesn’t jibe with Maggy the Frog’s prediction that she will have three children; and that she may simply have been lying for reasons left on the cutting-room floor…
There’s a popular fan hypothesis (I won’t dignify it as a theory) that Cersei is Gendry’s biological mother – that she actually sent the baby away to be raised in poverty, rather than have him killed, perhaps having a dead infant substituted (something that Varys’ little birds might’ve gotten wind of, via a midwife or handmaid). I never bought this notion, personally. For one thing, it wouldn’t make sense that she would send the Gold Cloaks to kill Gendry when she found out that he had fled the city, after going to some trouble to keep him alive. In any case she clearly was aware of his existence, at least as one of Robert’s by-blows. (I’m not 100% sure that we know that it was Cersei who sent them, since it was supposedly Joffrey who ordered the executions of the other bastards.)
But…in the off chance that this fan hypothesis is true…Cersei finding out that Gendry lives, and is fighting on the Stark side, and her having a change of heart (perhaps as a result of miscarrying her likely-last-ever pregnancy), being willing to acknowledge him as the rightful heir, even if only to counter Jon and Dany’s claims to the throne…that might qualify as a redemption of sorts. Especially if they were given a scene together where, to her own surprise, she softens and acts maternal. She might even become convinced that acknowledging Gendry would be a way of undoing Maggy’s prophecy.
Okay, it’s a stretch.
Whoa, I had never heard that one before! I … don’t understand why she is thought to have maybe done this? Is the thought that she didn’t want a child fathered by Robert, that she only wanted to raise children fathered by Jaime? I can’t wrap my head around this idea.
Well, wow. Huh. I myself have been very puzzled about Cersei’s surprise pregnancy. I guess this could intersect with it in some kind of narratively satisfying way …?
I posed the question without really having any answer of my own to it. Let’s see … the first thing that comes to mind is that Cersei could have Euron killed (because he definitely needs to go). That wouldn’t be redeeming though. OK, I myself am not convinced that the NK will make it all the way to King’s Landing (not saying it won’t happen just saying it’s not a sure thing in my mind). BUT if he did make it down there (perhaps just on wight Viserion, leaving the AotD and WW up North), what if Cersei & Qyburn end up being the ones to defeat the NK/Viserion with dragonglass-tipped scorpion arrows? I think we’d need to pat her on the back for that one. Still not sure that would be enough to redeem her, though, because I think that – as you pointed out above, Firannion – a person has to recognize how they were wrong and show remorse for what they’d done. And I just can’t imagine Cersei achieving that.
Gwidhiel,
Congratulations. You’re #400
firstone,
I think the third episode’s name might be The Prince That Was Promised as well.
It’s …showtime!
Firannion,
Ah how about this: if Cersei intervened somehow to save Tyrion – from who I don’t know – that might be a redeeming act. With all of the nasty, evil things she has done/tried to do to Tyrion over the last 7 seasons, acting to save him and acknowledging him as her brother would perhaps, ever-so-slightly, redeem Cersei.
Let the derailment begin!
Gwidhiel,
*lol* Made my day!
Gwidhiel,
ASNAWP marching into battle!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/b/be/Ashildr_at_Agincourt.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151026135814
Ten Bears,
Nice! I was hoping for something a bit more showy … perhaps ala Moulin Rouge? A girl has many sides, surely.
Sansa: You’re still very strange and annoying.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VEwBk3S0rBQ/ViXHYZp-qYI/AAAAAAAArtk/Koagbu4lkak/s1600/Doctor%2BWho%2B-%2BThe%2BGirl%2BWho%2BDied.gif
Winter is coming..,
https://78.media.tumblr.com/ec58c473d208bc3603d5008b7d07aa5e/tumblr_ocist9CiO81u4r6fqo3_540.gif
Ten Bears,
Keep ’em coming! I’m closing my data files for the evening and stepping away from my computer for a while but I expect an Arya avalanche (I forget what ASNWAP stands for, exactly) to drown out any flaming embers from this thread.
For me, that would go a long way. She brushed it off when Jaime informed her that Tyrion had no role in Joffrey’s death, but she’s had a little more time to think about that now. She may never forgive Tyrion for killing Tywin, of course. But she also had mixed feelings about her father, who treated her as having no value beyond chattel to be traded in a politically advantageous marriage. Probably had her own moments when she wished she had the nerve to put a bolt or two in him.
If Jaime dies before Cersei, I suppose it’s conceivable that she could dredge up some familial feeling for the last male Lannister. True redemption at this point would require her to make some sort of voluntary sacrifice, though, I think. A literal Pyrrhic victory over the dead swarming King’s Landing by blowing up the last of her wildfire caches, knowing that it’s her own final bow, might be the best we can hope for from Cersei.
Gwidhiel,
ASNAWP = “Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess” was coined by talvikorppi as a sarcastic reference, but I (and several others) liked it so much we adopted it as an acronym for our favorite character. 👸🏻
By the way: where is talvikorppi? Lost in scandinavian summer?
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
BTW, I do apologize to you, the 20th good man of Ramsay (and others) for (somewhat) unintentionally stirring the pot in what was mostly just a bit of a heated debate, though civil. Occasionally I can’t help myself and throw out little snide remarks like I did. We’ve been “on the same side” plenty of times so I know you’re not ALL bad. HA!! j/k 🙂
She’s Finnish, right? I don’t see any holidays on their calendar so, like, there’s really no excuse. 😀
Arya this! Arya that! Everything Arya is awesome! Arya gonna kick some ass!! ASNAWP!!!!!!
viki,
But if the assumption is that Dany and Jon will marry and end up ruling the 7 kingdoms, Sansa will very likely remain the Lady of Winterfell and in charge. They may even name Sansa Warden of the North, so it could work out well for her. Assuming the Army of the Dead is defeated and life goes on…which may be a big assumption to make. It just seems like D&D have things set up to head in that direction, with obstacles in their paths, of course, that they may or may not overcome.
Bran: About that dragon you lost….
#dragonskilldragons #youainteventherightfulheir
LOL
Everytime I replay that genius idea of Jon’s, I think, yup, you are Rhaegar and Lyanna’s kid. They ran off because they thought it the right thing to do and look what happened. Some folks have said they don’t have time for interpersonal drama in s8, but that’s what made the show the juggernaut it is. Which still makes me a bit worried about s8 feeling rushed in those matters like s7 did. I would love to see the council of Northern Lords (and Ladies) hearing why Jon bent the knee and just all the unblinking stares before hell erupts.
Clob,
FWIW, I think my tone and language aren’t about hating the character but rather frustration with the seemingly endless desire to sanitise and neuter a character that is, by far, the most ripe for creating drama and conflict in the conclusion to this story.
If I resent anything, it’s the character that some people want Daenerys to be, rather than the one that she is or could be.
Pretty much every loose thread remaining that has dramatic potential revolves around Daenerys and yet I constantly encounter predictions that see them all neatly tied off – the Stark sisters will love Daenerys, she won’t care about Jon’s claim, Sam won’t care, #theresnotime for politics and betrayals – rather than see everything unravel dramatically.
I’m hoping for an appropriately spectacular ending to this show, not one where everything that’s been set up is quickly rendered meaningless; where everybody gets along; the goodies inevitably defeat the baddies; and “boatbaby” is the only meaningful dramatic twist after all that we’ve been through. 😀
NinaD,
Everyone always dismisses fickle old Lord Glover as unworthy of Jon’s time, but I’d love to see the moment where he tells Jon that Deepwood Motte has been razed to the ground by the dragon that he and Dany lost beyond the wall.
I think the Northern Lords are likely to be slightly less appreciative of Daenerys’ help and Jon’s “successful” alliance negotiations once it becomes clear that The Wall fell, all of their homes are being destroyed and they’re refugees in their own lands because of Jon and Dany inadvertently dropping a dragon in the Night King’s lap.
Ten Bears,
ASNAWP!
I need a t-shirt with that on it!
They need to do an out-take with a debate going on inside the hall at Winterfell, cut to an exterior shot with Drogon pressing his earhole up to the building to eavesdrop, only to have Sandor walk by and say “Hey! Knock it off, ya scaly ****!”
Come to think of it, Sandor climbing aboard a giant fire-breathing air flap-flap last year was probably a pretty effective bit of therapy in dealing with his fear of fire.
Pigeon,
“Just my luck I wind up with a bunch of fire lizards.”
My comments have nothing to do with any bias against/towards house stark or danareys or jon or anybody, i like them all. My comments are merely made to point out that part of arya’s character that does not give respect to any person as an automatic reflex.
This quote from above i find to be very much on the money. respect for danareys will come from arya, once danareys has earned it. That might come from something as simple as a wink given at the right moment, but arya is not the person to gush. you wont see her give anything without it being earned. arya will greet danareys on good terms simply because her nature is one with the stark ethos ‘any friend of jon is a friend of mine’, just as you would expect ned to utter those very words, but trust is a different thing. Even when danareys gains arya’s trust they still wont have much in common. danareys, missendai, margery (if she was alive) and sansa belong to the soiree set. you wont find arya within a thousand miles of one of those things. And as for
I don’t think that you need worry too much on that score.
Firannion,
This to me would not constitute any redemption arc at all. imo it would be more damning than ever that cersie has not reformed. It would look like cersie with no other outlet for her vicious maternal nature is reaching out and grabbing hold of the last ‘maternal possession‘ that is left. how long? a couple of years? before she’s vested enough ownership in that lad to start screaming ‘burn everyone else‘.
nah! nothing she could do in my opinion as an act of redemption that would be believable. after the walk of atonement, if she didn’t feel the importance of that in her soul, if that didn’t touch her (all she felt was bitterness that she had been shamed thus) then nothing can reach her and she is unsalvageable.
She lost that dragon trying to save Jon and others. Tyrion practically begged her not to go, seeing that its super risky but she did anyway because she doesn’t leave her people behind. That’s Dany. That’s the Dany that Jon bend his knee for, that’s the Dany he fell in love with.
If she could save them in that scene why couldn’t she save the North without 1) Jon bending the knee and 2) without a ceasefire from Cersei? It just looks like she doesn’t have her priorities straight. Jon isnt wanking off to that.
Dany and Tyrion are primarily responsible for the wight dragon. Jon is just doing a job for her. Tyrion is also trying to accommodate Dany’s demands while helping out Jon. If Dany wants to be ruler she should own up to her mistakes – she has all the power in these situations.
Another thing I’m interested to see is if Dany insists that she’s the Northern Lords’ rightful queen or not. Because her being “their” queen and having the North as one of her territories has NOTHING to do with whether she saves people’s lives or not.
Interesting comments on Sansa and Arya’s reactions to Dany. This only bolsters my belief that its a parallel to Aegon and his sisters. I think Jon will be forced to decide where his loyalties lie, especially after R+L=J
MMJ,
Dany lost almost all of the allies she’s made in Westeros – Dorne, Tyrell, and Greyjoy. That’s why she had to ask Jon to bend his knee first before helping because she needs his army to win the throne. But I agree if this were LoTR, she could have just helped without asking for anything but this is GoT, where for the most part its grounded in realism. And alliances in real life, win wars.
Dany had taken a risk, the moment she decided to bring all of her dragons against Tyrion’s advise. That was not the smartest thing to do, I don’t know whether or not she was falling for Jon at that point or because she just got Jorah back but she went there because I reiterate, she doesn’t leave her people behind(except for the time when she rode on Drogon and left Meereen :D) for the most part she commits to her people. Plus her going off to fight in the North is owning her “mistake.” She would have to kill her own child, Viserion.
But she left Meereen. If she was really an abolitionist and cared about slaves, she wouldn’t be leaving that region to go “home.” Does she need a throne on two contients now? Empire overreach is never sustainable. And if thry are realistic, Dragon’s Bay will fall back into slavery because empires stuggle the more they expand. Another thing I dont buy is her loss of allies. Making Jon bend the knee isnt a way to gain an ally. She didnt force Olenna, Yara, or Ellaria to do that before she helped them out with their Cersei problem. And the AOTD is a threat to her crown just like Cersei. Why didn’t she tell Jon he didn’t have to bend the knee anymore? Why didn’t she have a Stannis revelation, fighting for the kingdom first, to win the throne? These things shouldnt matter if she’s really as selfless and committed to people as described.
Thank you for restoring peace to
the realmthis thread with a very merry ASNAWP slide show! (I was so tired last night that I couldn’t remember what the second A in the acroym was for).Yes, I think you’re right.
And I agree with this, too. I don’t find book!Cersei nearly so interesting as show!Cersei but neither version seems likely to be able to make a voluntary sacrifice for anyone, let alone the brother she’s spent nearly all her life hating.
Well, sure. I’d posed the question not because I thought it was plausible that Cersei will do anything to redeem herself, but merely to consider if there was anything she could do at this point that might constitute the start of redemption.
I guess I do like characters who “see the light” and change accordingly. It’s certainly part of why I like The Hound, along with his snark, and Jaime (who also is good for some snide observations).
MMJ,
Yup. Dany should’ve listened to Tyrion when he advised her she could do the most good by staying in Mereen.
Clob,
Washington Post headline:
“Winter is Coming: Allies Fear Trump isn’t prepared for gathering legal storm.”
Ha! Winter is here! Someone (👸🏻) is gonna tell the Mad King’s allies: “When people ask you what happened here, tell them: The North remembers. Tell them: Winter came for House Orange.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/winter-is-coming-allies-fear-trump-isnt-prepared-for-gathering-legal-storm/2018/08/29/b07fc0a6-aba0-11e8-b1da-ff7faa680710_story.html
Ten Bears,
So Robert Mueller is The Night King in this analogy? 🤔
+1
MMJ,
you are being very bombastic about nothing. Just because this is a very important point to Denarys but not to you, you seem to be intent on bludgeoning us with your point of view. ok, well lets run with this point of yours then.
Olenna is not the warden of highgarden, her son mace is. Yara is a wannabe warden of the iron isles but then it is pretty much of a hollow claim as she has no chance of claiming any taxes from her people as they all recognize euron as their warden. Ellaria is nothing more than a bastard who is despised by her prince. So, why would Danareys waste her time getting any of these to bend their knee to her? It would mean nothing in the scheme of things. Jon is the king in the North. Danareys needs to subjugate the seven kingdoms to her will. Do not forget that she has no wardenship behind her like Robert had, no Stormsend from which she can raise revenue with which she can pay the exorbitant costs of providing for, not one but two armies (the Dothraki, and the Unsullied) The only place that she will be able to claim the Wardenship of is Dragonstone, which, in Stannis own words ‘contributes zero to the armies effort (season 3 when he is talking to the Iron Bank I think) She needs to subjugate the seven kingdoms and have them firmly yoked to her cause in order to supply her with the revenue to sustain her vast army. There will be no revenue forthcoming from essos until she gets back there maybe ten years in the future, if she ever does at all. What ever revenue she has coming in must be provided by the seven kingdoms, hence, the seven wardens of those kingdoms must bend the knee to her to ensure that those funds will be forthcoming.
Gwidhiel,
No. House Stark = Mueller
the unburdened,
For what it’s worth, when Daenerys met Olenna and Ellaria, both Mace and Doran were dead. So O&D were indeed the leaders of what was left of their respective houses/regions.
Ah, better. I still like Putin as the NK.
Gwidhiel,
I still don’t get the “Breaking the Wheel” narrative. It was supposed to prevent commonfolk from getting crushed underneath it. But by invading, Dany gave that wheel a spin – and thousands or tens of thousands have died as a result.
And Dany IS a great emancipator. But there’s no slavery in the land she’s invaded. People there are just fed up with war.
Well, the actor playing NK = Vlad. So there you go!
Ten Bears,
I would consider the wights to be slaves, but I think you’re generally right. The people of Westeros are just tired of fighting other people’s wars.
Gwidhiel,
Well sure, everyone wants to see smeagle released, to be able to get away from the endless brow beatings of gollum and spend some time on a carribean beach laying in the sun with an umbrella drink. I just don’t think that Cersie has a smeagle, or if she did have one she managed to kill it some time ago.
Gwidhiel,
yeah, you are right, sorry. I still don’t think that Ellaria has any rights re her place and highgarden has no funds to offer any more
Yup. And this harkens back to discussions I’ve participated in recently about her lack of a plan. I think this lack of a plan and the contradictions between what she says she wants to do in Westeros and what she has actually done so far in Westeros are the crux of her story, and it’s what has me convinced that – books or show – Daenerys Targaryen’s story will ultimately be tragic.
When you look only at what has actually happened in the show so far – and keep hopes/best guesses about what will happen in S8 out of the discussion – Daenerys doesn’t look good in Westeros. So far she has: deliberately destroyed needed supplies, deliberately used a dragon and a horde of savages to kill a lot of Westerosi soldiers, deliberately burned an honorable father and son alive, and unwittingly given the Seven Kingdom’s greatest existential threat the means to bypass the one thing that had held him back for thousands of years.
No matter how brave and noble and caring her intentions were in going to save the wight expedition and Jon in particular, the result of Daenerys going north with three untrained dragons is that the North is now in grave peril. Without Wight Viserion, the NK and the AotD would still be stuck behind The Wall. There’s no getting past that very basic causal relationship. And the result of Daenerys leaving Meereen is that all that she fought and lost for (she lost Ser Barristan, for example, her one connection to her dead family) and all that so many Meereenese died for will end.
These are the building blocks of an unhappy legacy that can very easily be twisted by historians to create a false-but-convenient narrative of the final Targaryen monster, who brought death and destruction wherever she went. Totally not who Daenerys is and certainly not who she wants to be. But that’s how it goes.
I know, right? But let’s back out of this examination, because I am here to not think about the real world and its monsters. 🙂
Gwidhiel,
I agree.
the unburdened,
MMJ,
Speaking of Dany, actually she did exactly what MMJ demands: she committed herself to fight for the living without forsing Jon to bend the knee. Sure, it took her three episodes to redefine her priorities: she had to see it to know. However, as soon as she saw, she had an overwheling change of mind: she was even ready to leave Jon to save the mission she believed could save the world. It’s legit to asume, that even if Jon drowned in that frozen lake, Dany would have continued the fight against the dead and later when she promised Jon to fight against the Night King on the boat, she was no longer asking to bend the knee. Jon did this, because he deemed her to be deserving it for all what she did. But even then Dany took it more like an expression of personal acknowledgement than like an actual oath of fealty of a vassal: she was highly surprised when Jon affirmed his committment at Dragonpit. So, Dany’s only flaw was that she didn’t take Jon’s words for granted after a single conversation (which can be easily excused).
However, when it comes to Tyrion, everything is very murky. First of all, had he told Dany, that the dead pose a REAL THREAT and that they have to rethink all their strategy accordingly she might have listened: after all, she asked and his answer was rather vague. OK, I can accept that Tyrion also needed some time to adjust to a new reality. But then he came up with that stupid wight hunt plan, although he should have known that Cersei wouldn’t cooperate with her enemies under any circumstances, and finally he entered the Dragonpit negotiations without any plan B. Look at Cersei’s instructions to the Mountan: “If anything goes wrong, kill the silver-haired bitch first, etc.” Tyrion could (and should) have advised Dany to use Drogon the same way and in such case Cersei’s “Then there’s nothing to discuss” would have been immediately answered with “Dracarys” and problem solved: Dany & Jon could have safely sailed to the North after torching Cersei on her way back to Red Keep with no damage to civillians. Unfortunately to Dany and Jon, Tyrion still had too much loyalty to his siblings and that caused problems and will continue to do so.
I think, these are good points, Inga.
Here’s my most recent episode title list
Episode 1 – A Song of Ice and Fire
Episode 2 – The North Remembers
Episode 3 – The Great War
Episode 4 – The Promised One – ASOIAF
Episode 5 – The Many-Faced God
Episode 6 – A Dream of Spring
firstone,
“The North Remembers” was already an episode title for season 2 episode 1.
firstone,
These are good episode titles! Except… Ep. 5 could be “The Many-Faced Goddess.”
Because ASNAWP.
It’s tough coming up with episode titles for season 8 since so many good ones have already been used for the last 7 seasons.
I agree that “A Song of Ice and Fire” would be an obvious choice. Same with “A Dream of Spring”. Other than that, I have no idea. Here are some random possibilities that I can think of off the top of my head, though I doubt most of them would be used:
Winterfell
King’s Landing
The Long Night
The Golden Company
The Night is Dark and Full of Terrors
The Wall
The Red Keep
Queen of the Ashes
A Lannister Always Pays His Debts
A Shadow on the Wall
And Now My Watch Begins
The Sword in the Darkness
Oh, I like this one especially.
Good info – episode 2 – Lady of Winterfell
firstone,
Episode 2 – House Targaryen
I hope WOTW does a thread dedicated to guessing episode titles this year. I don’t think we did it last year because of the leaks. Too many people were sneaking spoiler info into the episode title guesses. So far, we don’t have that problem this time.
*keeps fingers crossed*
I wonder when Jon will finally be told of his true parentage. I would assume either episode 1 or 2. It’s been such a long time coming I can’t wait too see how everyone around Jon reacts to the news. I would think that has to factor into the episode title description too.
What about “Family, duty, honor” for ep 1 or 2?
Mr Derp,
My thoughts exactly. That’s why I was thinking “House Targaryen” for episode 2, maybe episode 1.
Inga,
That’s a good one. Certainly a better choice than “Growing Strong”.
* Sorry Olenna. RIP*
Milutin,
Yes, your episode title is what made me think of it, actually! 🙂
Gwidhiel,
I’m partial to the episode title “The Jackass and the Honeycomb.”
Ten Bears,
Nice.
I’m partial to “The God of Tits and Wine” as an episode title, but somehow….someway….I have a feeling it won’t come to pass, as unfortunate as that may be.
There’s always the prequel though.
LOL – yes! I would adore that. Although I was so roundly disappointed in S7 Tyrion – did he tell any jokes at all? Right now I can only recall him deflecting Euron’s assholery by discussing with Theon how Euron’s dwarf joke failed to hit its mark.
I’m generally quite terrible at coming up with episode names or predicting when this or that will happen. But what if there was one called “The Jackass and the Chicken” and it was mostly just Sandor and Tyrion taking the piss out of each other?
Mr Derp,
Regarding the season 8 teaser scene… Maybe Bran has already told Sansa who Jon’s parents are and …. that’s why Sansa is looking the way she is????????
Jon finding out who his parents are should be the first episodes final scene cliff hanger!!!!!!
The final episode of game of Thrones title could be … “I once walked into a brothel with a honeycomb and a Jackass”
Mr Derp,
“House Targaryan” sounds dull. I would prefer “The Blood of the Dragon” or “The Last Dragon”:)
Wolfish,
Not only strangers, but her husband too! Tyrion will be with Dany and Jon!
death by chickenfire,
Ten Bears:
PS Come to think of it, Dany and Arya can compare notes and bond over Dany’s Khal BBQ and Arya’s House Frey wine tasting party; or Dany’s Tarly-roasting and Arya’s Frey moron sons-baking.
———
death by chickenfire:
i can’t wait for this. the two most dangerous women of Planetos talk kitchen business. this deserves an own thread, just like the Night King’s tweeting.
__________\
I think I cut and pasted and saved our NK tweets. Yours was really clever. We should veer off on a sub thread…. Lemme look for them
If Bran has already told Sansa R+L=J … Sansa knows who Jon’s parents are… which means Sansa knows Jon Snow is Aegon Targaryen… and Sansa knows Jon Snow is a dragon… that’s why I think Sansa looks the way she does in the season 8 tease.
And he does actually seem to have a twitter account (actually he appears to have several but the one in which he claims to be an investment banker is surely just a ruse). https://twitter.com/TheNightKing_
If Bran and Sam tell ANYONE who Jon is before Jon himself, I will transport myself into that universe and kick both their asses. 😛
Seems possible – and would certainly account for the tense expression on her face in the video clip.
I don’t buy this least spoiler thing, I would suggest they did it because they knew it would get people hyped and speculating no more than that. It will almost certainly be from the first episode and it doesn’t take much to guess there will be a lot of drama given all the reunions taking place.
Lol now that would be funny:-)
On a serious note this has to be the very start of the premiere right? Episode 1 really needs to give time for all the reunions, let a little drama play out. I would guess they end it with either the Jon parentage reveal, Jamie arriving and Bran seeing him or White Walkers taking Last Hearth/Castle Black.
It would be a rather neat parallel if Episode 1 of the final season ended with the same freeze-frame as Episode 1 of Season 1: Bran in free-fall from the tower – only in retrospect this time, and his traumatic memories fully recovered. Then Episode 2 could begin with Jaime’s day of reckoning (which I fully expect to involve zero desire for retribution on Bran’s part, to Jaime’s bafflement).
I wouldn’t disagree with you but she will also be upset with Jon for surrending the North. There was setup for this in S7. Also not sure the Lannisters will be there other than Tyrion (who Sansa doesn’t dislike as he was always fair to her), I would imagine Jamie will arrive later for added drama.
Dany won’t get a warm welcome and it could turn sour quickly if she acts all high and mighty but I can’t imagine this drama last long because Jon’s parentage reveal and the white walker invasion will stop it.
There was nothing honourable about Randyll Tarly. He was a personification of the worst qualities of the Westerosi warrior class.
Nothing in the show suggests that. She tidied up everything in Slaver’s Bay before departing.
If Bran was going to tell the sisters anything before speaking to Jon, he would already have done so.
Bran said to Sam, “We must tell Jon”, he didn’t say, “We must tell Sansa, Arya, everyone”.
Sean C.,
I think Sansa knows R+L=J when she is hugging Jon because in season 5 Sansa had a detailed conversation with Littlefinger in the Winterfelll crypt about Leanna and Rhaegar. Also in season 6 Jon told Sansa that they need to trust one another and stick together but Sansa knows the Northern Lords aren’t going to Trust a Targaryen being King in the North… Also when Sansa met Roose Bolton for the first time (the man who killed her Brother Mother and sister in Law and stole Winterfell) She was able to fake being happy. Sansa looks very worried to me as she hugs Jon Snow aka: Aegon Targaryen
cos alpha,
Yeah Jon and Sam are the only ones who going to know who Jon’s parents are… no else will find out…. okay if you say so
Actually, no: according to the norms of that feudal society, which put the kind of emphasis on one’s sworn word that the modern world puts on contracts and non-compete agreements, Randall Tarly’s refusal to disavow Cersei and bend the knee to Daenerys was Randall Tarly upholding his honor. Honor has nothing to do with being a nice person. RT’s combination of mean-spiritedness and honor is one of the cognitive dissonance-inducing dilemmas that GoT repeatedly presents to the audience.
dany burnt all the fucking food and that shit is going to come back and bite her in the ass. starvation is as big a threat as the white walkers are and people who dont take this seriously are delusional and dont get it.while my queen sansa is getting the food ready for her people because thats what a ruler does. and we all know dany started this war she brought fire and blood to westros. dragons plant no trees
Departing with her 3 dragons, who were crucial to the tidying up.
firstone,
What I mean is: They would first tell Jon and/but nobody else, who his parents are. And then see and perhaps decide together, how to go on. I thought, it was quite clear.
I honestly don’t get this – Sansa isn’t a queen, and hasn’t sought to be a queen since she abandoned her hope of marrying Joffrey in Season 1. I like Sansa more than many fans do, but this Queen in the North notion is baseless. It’s what Littlefinger claimed to want for her. She’s never expressed any desire for it herself. Preparing for winter shows good foresight and leadership, but that’s not the same as ruling.
Gwidhiel dany didnt burn randyll alive because he was a shit father she did it because he didnt bend the knee plain and simple she did it to spread fear and you should never rule by fear. that was also a war crime she committed
490 comments and the Sansa flamewars continue. Give her credit for being such a controversial if not ineffable character.
C’mon Sandor! Get your as* back and set her straight! Your Little Bird needs some guidance. 🕊. So does one of your little chickens. 🐥👸🏻.
Grotesque theory (because Kettel One vodka): Where is Jaime decomposed amputated hand? Can Arya bake it into a pie and feed it to Cersei?
Gwidhiel,
Didn’t Tarly just completely abandon his sworn feilty to the Tyrels?
Huh, have I missed something? Today’s discourse seems quite civil. Perhaps I don’t understand what a flamewar is.
Yes, after a lot of agonizing and only after Jaime pointed out that he’d also sworn fealty to the Crown, as had Olenna, and she broke faith to side with “the foreign invader.”
But ceasefire came first. She wanted something in addition to bending the knee. She wanted Cersei to agree to back down before she did anything. This was clear in her dialogue and the importance she placed on the outcome of the meeting to determine her actions. Stannis did not ask Joffrey for a truce, before he answered a request for aid. And as for not requiring Jon to bend the knee before she helped, she still decided to make him a supplicant. “I appreciate your loyalty” – that isn’t a word you use when talking to an equal. Again, she should have told him he didn’t have to bend the knee anymore if it wasnt important to her. But since she did not, its not farfetched to assume that it always was.
So I guess its a big “what if” question but what would Dany have done if Cersei didn’t agree to Dany’s terms? Would Dany just let the North be consumed by the AOTD?
And in the show, would Dany have been satisfied if Jon agreed to accept Cersei’s terms? If I recall, she only agreed to make a truce with Jon–but not Dany.
Btw, killing off your enemies in one fell swoop – the Red Wedding/Daario solution but in this case at the dragonpit – would have to come with a price.
OMG, I laughed my ass off Bears. I’ve been been off here for a few weeks (because sometimes Life Sucks) but came here to settle my nerves and maybe have a chuckle and you didn’t fail me. Plus, I was astonished to see a topic that garnered over 397 posts in the off-season. I guess we are all hungering for our GoT.
hmmm I’d imagine the hand is in Locke’s backpack somewhere up north under a snow drift in the now-deserted Craster’s Keep. so, no pie.
Way OT, speaking of Crasters, I wonder where all Gilly’s sisters/aunts/nieces went?
But TB, honey, if Kettel One gives you such a scary take on things, maybe try wine, lol, if that makes you a bit more mellow. love ya, T
I hadn’t been on here for a while, and started from the bottom quotes. which is when I made the comment we’re hungering. Then a few minutes later I read your “starving” assessment. Great minds thinking alike, and all that.
****************************************
****************************************
I figure I’ll make a Sansa/Jon comment, might as well. I watched the few seconds of Sansa’s eyes over and over again. I don’t detect malice in her glance, but it does look to me like she’s got a million things on her mind and she’s wondering how to tell Jon. I do not now, nor have I ever, nor do I even want to contemplate a belief that Jon and Sansa will be romantically involved in any manner. They are happy enough being just brother and sister – it’s going to be hard enough for them to contemplate being cousins. No romance will be happening there.
Wait….are you saying there’s a chance that Jaime’s right hand is now….Jaime’s Wight Hand?
*puts on sunglasses*
*yeaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!*
I wouldn’t be the one to ask. Didn’t say I was sick of betrayals or that Sophie was referring to anyone in particular. I’ve just seen people on Twitter & such express the view that Sansa always seems to be “forced” by the writers to be somewhat at odds with other widely-liked characters, as well as the desire for her to team up with the other ladies to “kick butt.”
Of course they tried to build up suspicions that the influences of Cersei, Littlefinger, Sansa’s experiences, etc., have turned her into some super-smart & clever but potentially dangerous player…yet that whole idea was really never borne out. And evidently she was still being manipulated by LF right up until Bran told her the truth in a deleted scene (deleted just to confuse & mislead the audience, apparently? Unless they removed it to imply instead that it had been her fooling him. It felt almost unbelievable that by that point anyone in her position could still be trusting him, especially over Arya.)
Personally speaking, I don’t totally hate her (that has to be reserved for the evil folks), but after she moved from my “hate” column to the “meh” one, she pretty much stayed there…which is okay because my like/love columns are very long already.
Ha, EXACTLY!!
I don’t want her to be worshiped. I also wouldn’t want her to be regarded with unnecessary amounts of antagonism. I do see her as a caring ruler who wants to help the destitute and protect the smallfolk. Again, I’ve always imagined the Arya/Dany relationship being very positive. Ultimately they will all need to work together regardless of how much distrust or disagreement they find themselves having. With any luck (and intelligence) they can work things out and focus on their most pressing problems. I don’t think any of them are quite dumb enough to just squabble and bicker and hold grudges while the dead attack. ;p
Hm, how would Sam accept Dany’s explanation (slash apology, perhaps?) for not taking his father (good riddance) & brother (lol, Dickon…why, man, just why), prisoner? I’m…hoping…relatively…well? Ish? Not sure I’d go so far as to agree that he “won’t care,” but I realize that I’d expect him to be able to accept it, and her, more than not.
-Is Cersei redeemable? I tend to think not. Man, would she have to do an awful lot. Maybe something for Tyrion would be the most likely possibility. But after last season, when for one brief shining moment I actually dared to imagine for one minute that they might have gotten through to her on some level…naaah, what was I even thinking, considering her keeping her word or doing anything halfway decent? x-p I just have the feeling that there’s no turning around for her, and probably hasn’t been for a long time.
-As to redeemed females…loved Osha! But I don’t judge men and women differently. And I don’t consider Melisandre “redeemed” yet, but well on her way. Obviously she was utterly devastated and bereft after seeing that everything which had been so incontrovertibly certain in her view was either illusory or now, suddenly, questionable. She’s someone who’s devoted her existence to serving a lord she believes is ultimately good, to helping find and aid the world’s savior. She isn’t hateful; she doesn’t actually bear ill will toward anyone personally. I’ve never believed her to be cruel/sadistic or to take pleasure in others’ pain, suffering, or deaths the way other people do. From her perspective burning enemies of R’hllor or sacrifices truly is purifying them, giving them over to the goodness and light of the lord. She’s a fanatic but is clearly becoming less so (“Mellowsandre” post-Stannis? xD) She isn’t out for herself, and can admit to having been wrong and learn from the past. She isn’t a charlatan; by all accounts the Red God’s power seems to be quite real. Despite the horrific things she’s done, I couldn’t help feeling for her as she retreated into herself and avoided speaking as much as possible. My interpretation of her doesn’t allow me to think that this crushing depression didn’t include tremendous guilt. But no amount of “I’m sorry” would even begin to cover it, so she finally snaps out of the funk enough to just double down on her determination to help—to do all she can before her death to try and set things right. If I’m allowed to post a link, this essay on Tumblr explains how I view Mel (well, not 100%. I left my own little note on there.) It’s long but excellent; I usually have the computer/phone read such things aloud to me. ;p
http://daenerys-the-dreamer.tumblr.com/post/141168625908/why-melisandre-is-grrms-most-misunderstood
Gah, I’m done. x_x
MMJ,
Well, ceasefire was in Jon’s best interests as much as it was in Dany’s. Cersei was a sworn enemy of the Starks and, although Jon didn’t expect her to march her armies north in winter, she could have harmed him and his family in many other ways, just as Sansa warned him.
And when you compare Dany with Stannis, you should remember that Stannis wanted to kill Robb with blood magic, although Robb’s father sacrificed his life to put Stannis on the throne. So, it’s just the way the things are in Westeros: all the claimants to the Iron Throne have been deem the Northern Brexit unacceptable – even Renley, although he was ready to seek some sort of accomodation by recognising Robb a king. Therefore, we can’t expect Dany to abandon the principles upon which the entire state of the Seven Kingdoms is holding on – even Tyrion stood agains her intent to grant some sort of independence to the Iron Islands being affraid that in such case all the Seven Kingdoms will fall apart.
If Cersei could harm them, and a ceasefire was useful to prevent that, why didnt Sansa meet with her to seek a ceasefire from her too?
If Cersei is untrustworthy, how does asking her to promise them something make anyone safer?
Even Dany herself questioned why they were meeting with Cersei if she wants Dany killed. What appeared to change was her losing her dragon. After that she seemed really invested in getting Cersei’s promise. Which again…shows that she’s not thinking straight.
Your argument makes sense if Dany went there to kill her – not naively ask for her word. The fact that Jon Did Not Engage tells us he didn’t really believe Cersei either. And why would he think Cersei was more important all of a sudden? He’s always been focused on the North – and probably even more so if he knows about the wight dragon.
::ba-dum tissss::
Even though there is a crawly wight hand in Season 1 of GoT, my mind goes straight to the ending of Coraline. I like to think that, offscreen, Jaime’s hand got dropped down a well somewhere, from whence it can do no further damage except to the drinking water supply.
Everything you say has justification, Dany getting pregnant and marrying Jon seems likely in fact maybe it’s too obvious. We know there will be a huge twist so I would say a happy ever after ending is actually unlikely. Also we know the very opening scene on S8 will be an Winterfell most likely Jon arriving with reinforcements so don’t expect a big time jump either.
That could have happened off screen, Sansa and Arya would need to know, it affects the fragile alliance, something Sansa is smack dab into up to her neck, bestrewn those wind vane lords and the Vale of the south.
Bran already blurted the truth about Jon to Sam without any prompting, so I think it’s certainly possible that Bran would tell Sansa and Arya before Jon knows, but I have a feeling the show won’t do that because it would make the reveal less dramatic once Jon finds out for himself.
I don’t get the comments about Sansa being unhappy to see Tyrion, whilst she will hardly run to him there is no ill feeling between the two at all and I would both expect a respectful acknowledgement. Dany is definitely not getting a friendly welcome but again she is needed, Sansa I think would take time to warm to her and Arya won’t tolerate her entitlement B/S but it should all pass within an episode or two.
That’s Dany’s POV as a conqueror – which is only one side of the story. I expect these concerns will come up again as she no doubt realizes the Northerners won’t bend and Cersei is moving in to take back her territory. But if they do come up again, they will probably distract her from fighting the NK, and we’ll see what she prioritizes more – throne or saving people.
Imagine how all of that comes across to Jon and Davos. They both know that Stannis answered a call for aid without demanding Robb Stark bend the knee first or demanding Joffrey agree to a truce. If Stannis gets it (even though it took forever), why can’t Dany?
Daenerys needs to prevent an apocalypse without conditions or demands from its inhabitants, otherwise her Realpolitik concerns won’t even matter.
And I’m not sure that “subjugation” is the best way to win at this stage – she would “win” but then she’d be ruling by fear, would look like her father, and be no different than Cersei. A better approach would be: ally with Jon, save people’s lives, and let them ELECT her as queen instead of subjugating them first. Saving the realm first to win the throne later is what Stannis was attempting to do after Davos convinced him that it was a wiser approach.
Yeah, I’m inclined to agree. It would be interesting in some ways if Sansa knew before Jon did, and perhaps even persuaded Bran & Sam to keep mum for the time being in the interests of holding everything together while they face the AotD. But I’d be surprised if they went that route. They’re going to make hay with that plot development, and telling Sansa and Arya before Jon knows would mute the drama just a bit.
There is absolutely no justified reason to hate Sansa. She only gets hatred because she is a female character with power and this irritates the male ego. SO they make up BS like Sansa is not important, her story is over, hope she dies. Disgusting behaviour. And in 2018, absolutely unacceptable.
It’s very simple.
If you hate SANSA Stark, you are a misogynist.
I think this is unwarranted. I don’t hate Sansa – I’ve grown to like her and I defend her frequently in these discussions. But I absolutely disagree with this contention. Sure, some people might dislike Sansa because they don’t like powerful women, but there are plenty of people who love Daenerys, Arya, Brienne, and other powerful women in the story, but who just don’t like Sansa. Perhaps the folks whose negative view of Sansa rises to the level of hate are more likely to hold misogynistic views, but I haven’t seen any evidence of that in these threads.
I’ve wondered above if there’s less willingness in the audience – in people in general – to update their view of a reformed female character. And if there’s merit to that idea, that’s a subtle type of misogyny. But if that’s the case – and I’m not sure that it is, it’s just a thought – that’s not about not liking Sansa because she has influence, that’s about not liking Sansa because she was once not very likable.
I see Sansa as just a normal tween, a daughter, two sisters, 10 nieces, a number of female cousins, they all at one point acted like Sansa, none acted like Cersei.
Cersei at Sansa’s age was shit and remained shit.
Sasha,
This is either grade A trolling or grade A sarcasm. Either way thanks for the laugh.
Sasha,
I hate Sansa because I find her to be a boring character. Her being female has nothing to do with it. After all, Arya is my favorite character.
Not that I think you are a sexist person (know nothing about you), there are tons of sexists who despise Sansa yet love Arya because of how she rejects traditional feminine qualities and they believe Arya thinks most women to be weak and stupid, unless they are a warrior.
Dany was despised by the same crowd until she won the approval of Jon. Cat is one of the most hated characters in the entire series. Women who have traditional roles and try to act assertive are utterly despised by some, and no matter what those characters do they will never be allowed to change. These people love Arya for rejecting said qualities.
Plus Arya is one of those characters who the audience always been engineered to like and never really presented any character genuine flaws to dislike, much like Jon, Davos or some others, any flaws they have are massively diluted. I’ve never come across someone who doesn’t like Arya, it’s like someone not liking Gandalf or Spider Man, you are meant to like them and not be challenged. Unlike Sansa, who has shown genuine flaws, views and problems that challenge the viewer to think, which imo, makes her a really interesting character and someone who’s growth has been really fun to watch.
You’ll never have debates about Arya, you will about Sansa (and some of it is actual sexist bullshit, but not all of it). That in itself proves she is far from a boring character imo. So many people have different takes and views on her.
MMJ,
Sansa didn’t go to treat with Cersei, because she knows her too well, whereas Dany and Jon made a mistake, because they trusted Tyrion: Tyrion told them that Cersei could be persuaded – who could know better, right? So, it’s hard to blame any of them.
And Tyrion’s mistake was that he was desperately trying to accomodate everyone: Dany, Jon, his siblings. He got lost in his own schemes, which eventually backfired.
Sure, everyone was imperfect: Jon was failing to find the right words and tone; Dany was changing her mind too slowly, etc. However, responsibility for most of the miscalcullations lies on Tyrion, because loyalty to his family prevented him from admitting the obvious: Cersei had to be dealt with ASAP at whatever cost, just like Ramsay Bolton.
Dickhead Tarly, father of Dickon Tarly, was pretty much an opportunist piece of comes-out-at-the-back if i did not miss one of his oaths or his motivations for them.
he was the only one defeating Robert Baratheon in that famous rebellion. Targaryen family defended: check.
he was a sworn ally to house Tyrell while Fat Bob B was on the throne. Targaryen family defended: fail. being loyal to them: fail. if i miss some complications in the Tyrell-Lannister relationship, please remind me of them! but i think, this is pretty much: having an eye for the winning side.
finally, after some minor Tyrell vs Lannister disputes were solved by wildfire and a few other incidents, he quits the Tyrells and joins the Lannister side because the Tyrells support the “foreign invasor whore” – whose family he once defended against Baratheons and… ehm… Lannisters.
that’s flip-flopping at it’s best.
BeardedOnion,
Thank you for this very insightful post. I agree with you entirely.
Yup.
This is particularly true of the show’s version of Arya. She’s more nuanced in the books (as is Sansa). People often complain about how Jon or Arya had to be “dumbed down” in S7 to make Sansa look smart, apparently not realizing that the show had dumbed Sansa down from the very first season, and made Arya more unequivocally appealing. I suspect that D&D knew that people need to have their favorites that they can always root for no matter what, and Arya is such a character.
Very insightful – I agree entirely.
MMJ,
Once again, you somehow forget that Stannis wanted Robb killed and that he was as happy to hear about the Red Wedding as he was happy to hear about Joffrey’s death. And in general, show!Stannis went to help the NW only because Melissandre told him to.
BeardedOnion,
I guess liking Arya isn’t the best way to prove I’m not being misogynistic, so I would like to add that, as far as characters go, I also like Cersei, Danerys, Margarey, Olenna, Lyanna Mormont, Shireen, Yara, Missandei and Catelyn. I disagree that the arguments regarding Sansa automatically means she’s an interesting character, it just she’s divisive.
And some people’s take is that she’s boring.
your very interesting comment leaves me with a few questions.
1) what makes Sansa boring after all she’s been through and how she dealt with it?
2) how could she excite you more?
3) why is Arya your favorite character?
and
4) you think that bit is enough to become member of the ASNAWP cult? better commenters have tried to join.
Sure, we the audience have access to his history, his racism, his harsh parenting style, and his general awfulness (let’s not forget his eagerness to whip the stragglers among the retreating Lannister army), but do you really think that’s how it’ll be framed when discussed in various halls in Westeros? I rather doubt it.
death by chickenfire,
1. Sansa is a character that has endured pain throughout the entire series, which certainly makes her sympathetic, but not interesting to me. For most of the series, she’s a character where things happened to her, and she rarely accomplished anything herself. One of the view times she did was one of my favorite scenes from the show, where she lied to the Vale lords and saved him, but even that action worked against her, seeing as Littlefinger is not her ally. Besides that, Tyrion and her family status protected her in King’s Landing, Littlefinger and Dontos saved her from the Lannisters, Theon saved her from Winterfell, Brienne saved her in the woods, Jon defeated Ramsay, and Bran uncovered all of Littlefinger’s past crimes.
2. She could be a little more proactive.
3. Arya’s journey was my favorite part of the series. Her tutelage under Syrio Forel, The Hound, and Jaquen turned her into an amazing fighter. My main adoration for her comes from her fierce loyalty to her family and the fact that she treats lowborn with respect and friendship, which is rare for a highborn. Plus, Maisie Williams is one of the most talented actresses on the show.
4. Probably not. As much as I love Arya, I can’t compete with Ten Bears. I agree with everything she says about Arya, but she can voice it a lot better than I can.
Nope, not even close. But thanks for coming out.
Pigeon,
I’m starting to understand your connection with migraines and this comment section more and more every day.
Haha! Hmmm….very true…🤔🤪
Mr Derp,
Are there other discussion forums you’d recommend? For me the free-for-all reddit forums aren’t very appealing. I like so many of the regular commenters here, but the drive-by vitriol is pretty off-putting.
Gwidhiel,
This is the only place I come to for online discussion. I’m rarely ever active online. I’m not very familiar with other options, but I have a feeling some others here are more knowledgeable of such things.
I love WOTW and I generally enjoy most of the commenters here, but sometimes I just can’t stand the posters who act out when someone else doesn’t share their exact same opinion about a FICTIONAL character. It’s brutal. Unfortunately, this kind of thing happens everywhere, so there’s really no getting away from it. I just try and focus on the positive and ignore the noise, though sometimes it’s easier said than done.
Yup.
Today’s “debate” about misogyny reminded me of this gem. It’s mostly unrelated to either GoT or women, but check out Luther starting at 2:20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6NfRMv-4OY
Thronetender,
Good to see you back! I’ve been footnoting you in references to “high thread count” scenes. 😋
Jon Snowed,
“Also we know the very opening scene on S8 will be an Winterfell most likely Jon arriving with reinforcements so don’t expect a big time jump either.”
______________
Do we know for a fact this will be the opening scene? I had other ideas..,
death by chickenfire,
I’m a member of the ASNAWP cult because Maisie Williams has been brilliant since day one.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcPzOBDACvj/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
Really good point about Viserion, I would imagine they will want to show this as a surprise for Dany so realistically Beric and Tormund won’t reach Winterfell until episode 2 atbthe earliest. But then how could Bran miss this?
BeardedOnion,
OMG, This, so much this !!!!!
Jon and Arya are such boring characters to me personally (as a show only watcher) because you are told repeatedly to like them and root for them and they’re such tropy characters. On top of that, any flaws they have are there to make them more likable and aren’t really flaws if you think about them, Jon’s flaw is being too honorable and heroic. Arya’s flaw is being vengeful against those who harm her family and being impulsive on occasion, which provides bad ass scenes because she’ll be with the hound or Jaquen and they’ll get her out of trouble. Cersei, Dany, Sansa, Tyrion, Jamie and Theon are the best characters on the show because of their flaws and the challenges they face because of them.
Nariman,
No one told me to like Arya. I like her for the very reasons I posted above.
I honestly don’t see how there will be time to build a relationship between Sansa and Dany. Episode one is likely to be full of reunions, by episode 3 the AotD will be on them at which point Sansa or Dany could be dead, if they survive they are likely heading south either fleeing or marching to take Kings Landing and not sure how Sansa plays a role in the latter.
Two heads popping out of a snowdrift, perhaps? One ginger, one with an eyepatch?
I think there’s time to develop a tentative relationship between the two in the first couple of episodes if D&D want to go that route. There’s only like 2 maybe 3 different locations to focus on at this point. Most of the major characters will be at Winterfell, so I fully expect a lot of time to be devoted there in the first couple of episodes. Whether D&D go that route though is another debate entirely though.
Firannion,
I think I posted a version of this a year ago. Here’s my hoped-for cold open to S8 if, as Jon Snowed speculated above, the very first scene will be at WF and we shouldn’t expect a “big time jump” from the end of S7:
………………
Cold open to S8e1: Sansa & Arya, following battlements scene at the end of S7e7
(Great Hall of Winterfell. Empty except for Sansa and Arya cleaning up after Littlefinger’s execution. Sansa mopping up blood on floor; Arya lashing LF’s corpse to rolling chair for disposal. Sansa turns around to see Arya has peeled off LF’s face.)
Sansa: “Arya! What are you doing!”
Arya (giggling): “Get it?”
Sansa: “Get what?”
Arya (pointing to corpse): “Oh, come on…”
Arya (laughing): … “Faceless Man“, get it?”
Sansa: “Ewww, that’s disgusting! You really are strange and annoying, you know that? Now I suppose you’ll add that face to your mask collection?”
Arya: “Pfft! Like I’d ever want to wear this ugly mug. No, I’m going to finish up my Hannibal Lecter mini-arc and feed it to the dogs.”
Sansa: “Huh? Dr. Lecter ate his victims. And Buffalo Bill didn’t feed skins to Precious.”
Arya: “I guess you didn’t see the sequel or read the second book.”
Sansa: “Hey! How’d you make that grey box cover your words?”
Arya: “A Girl has many gifts.”
Sansa: “Look, Arya, letting dogs eat human tissue is revolting. Only someone truly sick would even think of feeding a person to dogs.”
Arya: “Oh, really?”
(Conversation interrupted when Sandor Clegane walks in)
Sandor: “Dogs? Dogs? What are you two yammering on about?”
Sansa & Arya (excitedly, in unison): “The Hound!!!!”
(Both run over and hug him and start kissing his cheeks)
Arya: “We thought you were dead!”
Sandor: “Now I wish I was. Damn it! Stop it! No kissing! No kissing!”
Sansa: “Get used to it, big guy.”
Arya: “Ummm … I think I’ll just go take out the trash.” (Arya wheels out LF’s corpse; locks door behind her).
Sansa: “I’m Lady of Winterfell now. I can do whatever I want to you…”
Sandor: “W-w-what do you mean?”
Sansa: “I think we both know what I mean.”
Sansa can’t be that boring, she is one of; if not close to, the one character to elicit the most responses among the ASOIAF & GOT base and print media.
I’m comparing Dany and Stannis on a single point: going North to fight the White Walkers without conditions or pointless ceasefires that are a waste of time. I’m not sure what Stannis’ thoughts on Robb or Joffrey has to do with that. And Mel and Davos worked together to convince him: “What he saw beyond the Wall…it’s coming, for all of us.” “The true war lies to the North, my king.” Stannis didn’t even have to see the AOTD first. I’m not a Stannis stan by any means but on this point the contrast is crystal.
That’s not how I see it at all. Tyrion appeared to come up with the plan for two reasons 1) “You need to find a way to make her listen” (make her act less like her father), and 2) Dany wouldn’t change her mind about helping out Jon, in the scene when he got the raven from Bran. Jon asks if she will to help him for the millionth time and she says NO. So of course he’s going to follow whatever idiot scheme she’s on board with, if it involves her agreeing to help.
I think Jon was going along with whatever plan would get Dany to go North, and I could tell he didn’t give a rat’s ass about that ceasefire as a “legitimate” thing.
I can’t imagine using the words “ASAP” and “Cersei” in the same sentence after the disaster that was wight hunt, and when there’s a zombie dragon that can fly over the Wall now? That’s an ASAP situation. Jon would at least know that animals that die North of the Wall turn into zombies.
Just to be clear, here is Dany’s choice in S7:
1. Throne
OR
2. Saving people
She wanted to do BOTH.
She refused to make a choice.
This is unsustainable in terms of character.
Everyone has to choose. The writers will make her choose eventually.
I am not good at all with predicting episode title last but I don’t believe we see one called Golden company as I don’t expect them to feature heavily and the first four episodes at least are likely to revolve around the army of the dead. I am expecting the premiere to feature heavy drama on reunions much like dragon and the wolf so we may get a title similar to that. The second I am guessing will play on Jons parentage and Jamie/Bran fall out so may tie with that.
I Mentioned it earlier but Jon’s parentage reveal feels very much like the end of episode one to me, this way we get a cliffhanger moment and episode 2 can deal with the fall out whilst the white walkers descend.
546 comments for one (1) second! hahahahahahaha! We’ll die from impatience.
That’s an interesting theory but I assuming this is the very start of the episode and I am not convinced Sansa will be angry about Jons parentage as Bran knows it was consensual too.
Agree I cannot imagine Bran wanting revenge but Arya, Sansa and Jon may, bound to be some tensions arising, I suspect Jamie will show remorse though.
Why would Arya want vengeance? I think there’s only one name left on her list. 64 out of 65 targets have already been introduced to the God of Death.
There’s only one name left on Arya’s Most Wanted, and some “little brother” will be doing the honors – though she might get some of his or her blood on her sneakers.
#LastWomanStanding
Arya used to have the Red Woman on her List, on Gendry’s account, and their meeting again was foreshadowed. I’m hoping not much time is invested in Mel in S8, personally, but that box must be checked off one way or another. I’m rather more interested in what last thing Varys has left to accomplish (or die trying).
Firannion,
Ah, that’s right. I forgot about Arya’s date with the Red Witch. Perhaps Gendry will dispatch her in the forges of WF “because the Lord of Light told me to.”
#EvilWomanHowYouDoneMeWrong
Ten Bears,
I actually kinda like Melisandre. Yeah, yeah, she’s done some awful, terrible things… but, she also brought Jon back, got Jon an invite to Dragonstone and sure does like to disrobe a lot. I can’t complain. 😉 Maybe when she returns she can apologize to Gendry and Arya. Davos won’t forgive her but I personally blame Stannis the Blandist more for that simply because he allowed it.
Foreshadowing In the Season 2 finale “Valar Morghulis” Melisandre says to Stannis (should be Jon Snow) “This War has just begun. It will last for years. Thousands will die at your command. You will betray the men serving you. You will betray your family. You will betray everything you once held dear. And it will all be worth it.”
It all sounds like it fits Stannis story perfectly.
Then Melisandre says “because you are the Son of Fire. You are the Warrior of Light. You must sweep aside this pretender and that one. You will be King.”
Aegon Targaryen aka: Jon Snow is the Son of Fire… The Warrior of Light
This whole conversation between Melsandre and Stannis Baratheon is a foreshadowing of Jon Snow’s season 8 story arc.
It is gonna be epic!
Me too.
Geesh go away for a few days and come home to see over 500 posts about a blink -and-you-miss-it-video. Yup we are in the middle of the off season and the natives are getting very desparate! Still all in good fun 🙂
ash,
Good to see you back, Randyll! I mean Ash.
(I’ll see myself out.)
I’m gonna throw it out there and predict a heel turn for Jon.
Ten Bears,
The Hound told Sansa in Blackwater that “Your sons are going to be Killers”!
The Hound and Sansa “Ginger” Stark are going to make a few more Hounds.
Pigeon,
Now that idea reawakens the hype! Jon became a bit stale for me last season. I want to see some of that fire.
jonathan,
Imagine how full the room will be when the first teaser drops!
I think it would be pretty out of left field, and potentially wonderful. Lol.
From my experience Watchers is by far the best online Game of Thrones experience. I don’t use Reddit but the couple of times I have looked it’s like the Wild West, the site run by Elio and Linda is terrible and full of trolls and book readers who constantly complain that the show is terrible and can not recognise the good parts. There are always exceptions of course but the odd troll apart WotW is very calm and welcoming.
I have been avoiding spoilers but I feel certain Watchers covered this in article that the opening scene will start just outside of Winterfell most likely as team Targ arrives.
Oh good, my long comment with the Tumblr link explaining why I love Mel & don’t believe she’s evil got through moderation. ^^ I predict (and hope for) her being a big deal in the end; no way she’s just been there to make grievous errors and resurrect Jon. But Varys is another top favorite of mine, and I can’t wait to see what the whole deal is there. Not that I look forward to watching either of them die. Just saw “The Door” again today in our rewatch. I love the scene with Kinvara and Tyrion’s good-humored peacemaker attitude—the way he seems to wish for a leash to pull Varys back when the latter can’t resist advancing on the priestess with his challenges. Then early in S7 I loved his connection and interaction with Melisandre…good stuff so far.
DITTO Young Dragon on why I love Arya and not Sansa! The older Stark sister has just never appealed to me all that much, especially in relation to so many other characters. I’ve found her difficult to relate to personally, and a bit boring/passive and frustrating sometimes. I don’t think either sister is more realistic and believable. Arya isn’t impossibly perfect, and I have heard her criticized. There’s nothing wrong with having likable qualities. I’m female; I like some “traditionally feminine” people. Whether someone fits that image or not isn’t part of the criteria. It isn’t misogynistic to dislike Sansa, or Cat (I don’t hate either but have mixed feelings), and/or love Arya or Brienne. You can’t reduce them to just how girly or tomboyish they all are.
It’s not unrealistic for Dany to want to save people and take the throne, but it would make sense dramatically for her to end up having to make such a choice. I expect that, difficult as it’d be, she would choose the former. And as someone said, it would be a better plan to help rescue the people from the NK and then let them choose her as queen.
Shelle,
In Blackwater Varys gives Tyrion a map of Kings Landing and they talk about tunnels beneath the city. Varys says Targaryens built the tunnels to escape if necessary. This could foreshadow Tyrion using those tunnels in season 8 to escape when the battle for Kings Landing get too crazy. I know Tyrion has already used the tunnels in season 4 but not to escape a battle.
Varys also says that Stannis Baratheon has taken up with a red priestess from Asshai aka: Melisandre who is now supporting Jon and Daenerys. Varys warns Tyrion about a King supported by such old powers. This might foreshadow Tyrion betraying Jon and Daenerys in season 8.
Perish the thought! =x I suppose almost anything could be possible depending on how things go; we’ve been told to expect the unexpected and unpredictable, and I assume there’ll be enough twists and turns that no one could guess everything. Boy, do I hope we get some more official info and material soon…the wait is too much.
(And evidently 566 comments is too much for the browser to handle. x_x)
It may foreshadow Tyrion turning on Daenerys in a roundabout way, being as a result of the direct foreshadowing of Varys betraying Daenerys.
The chance of Varys betraying Daenerys opens up the possibility that Melisandre, and whoever she brings back from Volantis, may have some malign influence over Daenerys.
Only Melisandre (and perhaps Beric) believes that Jon is the Prince That Was Promised. The rest of the followers of the Lord of Light believe Dany is the “saviour”.
And while Beric has a pretty benign approach to his religion and Jon has already rejected Melisandre once on the basis of the crimes she committed in the name of her religion; the Red Priestesses in Essos have been rather worryingly preaching that Dany and her dragons will “purify non-believers by the thousands” and Dany has yet to be tested by their influence.
So here’s what we know:
1. Varys can think of nothing worse than someone under the influence of religious fanatics sitting on the Iron Throne;
2. Varys insists that he serves the people ahead of any king or queen;
3. Dany threatened to burn Varys alive if he ever betrayed her;
4. Melisandre has gone to Volantis, where they all worship Dany as the saviour, and will return to Westeros in Season 8;
5. Dany liked the idea that the prophecy of the Prince(ss) That Was Promised referred to a woman; and
6. Melisandre has predicted that Varys will die.
Now, I don’t know about anybody else but the course of events from point 1, Varys not wishing to see religious fanatics rule Westeros, to point 6, Varys dying, seems fairly straightforward to me
If Tyrion is likely to turn on Dany, then it will probably be once she renders his friend a pile of ashes.
This is an excellent well put together analysis and something I could definitely see happening. We know there will be a huge twist, that Emilia is concerned how her character will be viewed, that NCW has hinted the murderer will be revealed etc. If Dany falls under the spell of the Red priestesses it could certainly cause Varys to turn and Jon to also turn on her, especially once his claim is revealed.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Lots of good points I agree with. I don’t think Melisandre thinks that Jon Snow is the prince that was promised. She was unsure of her visions in season 7 but Melisandre did say “Jon Snow has something to do with it” and in the final season 7 episode Jon and Daenerys made the princess that was promised. I think Melisandre will work some Blood Spells, curses and shape-shifting for Daenerys that Varys warned Tyrion about in Blackwater.
Daenerys might take Daario Naharis advice and become a butcher and The Queen of Thrones advice and be a dragon. When Daenerys tells Tyrion she plans to break the wheel. Daenerys names Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheron, Stark, Tyrell… Jon Snow is Aegon Targaryen so?. Daenerys already killed the Tarleys and when she starts breaking the wheel (and kills Varys) Tyrion will betray her.
You see I do think Mel believes Jon to be the Prince that was promised. If you listen to what she tells Dany I am not convinced she believes it’s Dany but the red priestesses in Volantis do believe it’s Dany. This could be a cause for some level of conflict potentially.
firstone,
Ginger puppies!
All the Red Priests in Volantis preach Queen Daenerys is the Savior. I think Tyrion Lannister is the Savior aka: Azor Ahai. Tyrion’s sword will be the ax Tyrion used in the Blackwater battle. The same ax Jamie gave to Podrick. This would be George RR Martin’s 3rd major surprise. Queen Daenerys is already a Queen – Jon Snow is already a King. The Princess that was promised will be Jon and Daenerys child! This could surprise and shock the masses and that’s what I want to see x100 in season 8.
Ten Bears,
??? Im confused, who is Randall?
Great discussion btw – keep it going, its going to be an even longer long night….
firstone,
Sandor Ahai. A “warrior” has to draw a burning sword from the flames.
Sorry. Randyll Tarly = incinerated = ash.
Ten Bears,
I agree Sandor will be drawing his burning sword from Sansa Stark the Ginger Flame 🙂 but Tyrion Lannister will finally be Azor Ahai after he plunges his sword into his wife heart aka: Sansa Stark. Here’s my guess Lady Sansa finally becomes Lady of Winterfell – Aotd attack Winterfell – Tyrion hops up on a spare dragon and burns Winterfell to the Ground destroying Winterfell – symbolically stabbing his wife Sansa Stark in the heart.
Tyrion will also save Westeros from the mad queen. Emily Clarke already said she does some crazy stuff in season 8. Tyrion and Varys are already worried about Daenerys. I think Daenerys becomes a butcher and breaks too many spokes of the wheel.
First Tyrion sent the troops to “sail on Water” to Dorne and they were destroyed. failure. The 1st sword broke
Second Tyrion sent the troops to the heart of the Lion aka: Casterly Rock – failure. the second sword broke
Third and final Tyrion stabs his wife in the heart by destroying Winterfell and aotd with Dragonfire. aka: the Great War: That’s my guess…. no spoilers – 50/50 chance maybe?
Zero chance in 100, I’d say. I’m rolling my eyes at having to point out YET AGAIN that any scenario based solely on the legend of Nissa Nissa is NOT going to happen in the HBO show. Nissa Nissa and her role in forging Azor Ahai’s magic sword have NEVER been mentioned in the TV version. Not freaking once. And it is far, far too late for someone to relate that story, with no prior setup over seven seasons.
Give it up, dude! Why do some fans want so desperately to see some female character get stabbed in the heart? It boggles the mind.
Ten Bears,
Ha It took me a while, but in the middle of doing something completely unrelated, that popped in to my head. Ok, I laughed 🙂
What if the “Prince/Princess that was Promised” is actually a pact that was made between men, children, and the wight walkers? They “promised” that they would donate one of the children of the King or Queen to them.
The NK is coming to collect on that debt. And Dany would most certainly go Mad Queen if she’s told she’d have to give up her baby to end the Long Night. Plus that would be great foreshadowing to the prequel series.
Tinfoil Theory: I could very well see a different scenario where a new NK or NQ has to be made with a dragon glass heart transplant. Oh what a bittersweet and bad ass ending would it be to have the last scene be Jon atop the wall holding his and Dany’s son/daughter looking North beyond the Wall.
Then the camera pans down to Dany in the tree line as the new NQ with blue eyes… Damn that would be epic. Could work vice versa with Jon as the NK too and Dany looking out. In this scenario Jon will defeat the NK & take the dragonglass heart transplant rather than give up the child. Or Dany become the NK’s NQ “as promised” but wanted to say bye to her & Jon’s baby before all her humanity left… Oh the feels that would create. Surely break the internet…
^ I do see where that logic’s going, but strongly hope (as a big fan of Varys, Meli, Dany, & Tyrion) that nothing so straightforward and unfortunate actually comes to pass…that simply being torched by the dragons isn’t the foreshadowed end of the Spider…>_< ;0;
I'm still not expecting Dany to "go mad"; think that might be a red herring…
It seemed as though Melisandre kind of listlessly accepted Jon as the PWWP, but became more cautious and less zealous about it…then became convinced that both he and Dany would have roles to play, and needed to be united.
Personally I'm unconvinced that the prince(ss)'ll be either of them (or even a child of theirs, IF one is actually able to be born within the season's timespan), just because I don't see things going in a direction that's so obvious and that everyone anticipates. But we'll see. x3
I don't feel certain that the Nissa Nissa concept will be introduced, but I rather hope it is, since it's just another element with great dramatic potential. Wouldn't take long to explain how that bit worked, or seem out of place for someone to reveal it. It'd be one of those big last-minute twists that most people would never see coming. And I think anything that'll be significant in the books (assuming they're ever completed) will have no choice but to be in the show. So far they didn't cut anything/one crucial to the story, so I wouldn't imagine such a thing being omitted if it does matter.
If Nissa Nissa is the ending GRRM has planned then the show will do it, even if they don’t call it out directly. I wouldn’t write it off at this point neither Dany going mad because all options are on the table, given we know there is a twist coming.
Sure, we the audience have access to his history, his racism, his harsh parenting style, and his general awfulness (let’s not forget his eagerness to whip the stragglers among the retreating Lannister army), but do you really think that’s how it’ll be framed when discussed in various halls in Westeros? I rather doubt it.
Ordering the stragglers to be properly, ah, motivated was the least of his sins — and fully justified, given exactly what happened to those stragglers immediately thereafter.
His two major sins, as leader in a feudal society, were his intertwined oath-breaking and brigandage. House Tarly of Horn Hill was sworn to House Tyrell of Highgarden. Full stop. That some claimant to the Iron Throne said otherwise should have counted not at all, especially considering (as noted above) that he’d already fought to maintain the Targ’ dynasty against Robert the Rube of a Rebel.
Feudalism, as a form of government, is essentially a protection racket. The guy with the big sword keeps you safe against enemies without (marauding invaders) and within (highway robbers, etc.) his territory. If the guy with the big sword is himself such a marauding thief he’s stealing grain from farmers on the eve of Winter (!), then any claim he has to protecting anyone disappears.
One of the great things about this story is all of the ways GRRM shows that feudalism is both a failure generally, and is dying on Westeros from its’ own failures. We start with Ned the (earnest, yet stupid) patriarch, visit Craster the (horrendous parody of a) patriarch, and witness the decline and fall of Randyll (the humorlessly opportunistic) patriarch. The entire War of the Five Kings comes from Robert (the Bloated) patriarch “confusing ruling with winning,” as Tywin the (future-victim of patricide) patriarch reminds us.
I agree. While contradictory oaths and allegiances are a running theme of GRRM’s, Randyll Tarly’s most egregious offense was his betrayal of his primary allegiance to House Tyrell. The fundamental building block of feudalism – the social contract of the day, if you will – was the relationship between the holder of a fiefdom and the liegelord who granted it. High kings were all well and good, but one’s fealty belonged first to one’s immediate overlord. How the rigidly righteous Randyll rationalized his switch of allegiance to Cersei is a mystery to me.
Death is the Enemy – The first Enemy and the Last
Jon, Daenerys and everybody fight the army of the dead but “The Enemy always wins”. The Night King rules on the Iron Throne, Daenerys baby daughter the princess that was promises is murdered (as foreshadowed in season 2) The Night King turns her into a wight and eventually she becomes the Night Queen.
Everybody who hasn’t been turned into a wight gets on a ship and starts a dream of spring in Essos.
I think it was the fact that Dany was bringing foreigners with her. Randyll apparently REALLY hates them. Even more than he hates Cersei.
I don’t see that as a very optimistic ending since we’ve already seen that Essos is essentially filled with terrible people and places.
Clob,
Yea, that actually sounds more like a nightmare rather than a dream. Westeros would be lost to the AOTD, somehow some people would make it out of there (I have no idea how) and flee to Essos to start over? That really wouldn’t be a Dream of Spring to me. And there really wouldn’t be any resolution. It would just keep the same dynamic going that we already have, the AOTD are a threat, and people are still fighting over the Iron Throne. In other words, I would’ve watched 8 seasons for nothing. No thanks.
Part of me does wonder if the AOTD could possibly win in the end, but I have a hard time believing that the entire reason why they came back was simply to take the Iron Throne. I mean, what would they do with it? All they seem to want is for everyone to die anyway. What’s the point?