We did it, folks! We survived a 2 year drought without Emmy nominations for Game of Thrones. It’s been so long since we’ve had a ceremony with a GOT presence, so you might be scratching your head as you struggle to remember for which season it is even being nominated. Fear not – that’s what we’re here for! Debuting in July 2017, Season 7 of GOT aired just after the nomination period for last year’s Emmy awards, clearing the way for a slew of new shows in many categories. As a matter of fact, it was a record year for the Emmys, when 5 new shows were nominated (Westworld, The Crown, The Handmaid’s Tale, Stranger Things, and This is Us). However, all new things must come to an end to make way for the old; out with the new, and in with the old they always say!
Returning to stake its claim among the categories returns the aging veteran Game of Thrones, back to reclaim its 2-time trophy, and go for a 3-peat in the Best Drama category (after taking a year off for hibernation). Last week, I played a little guessing/wishful thinking game. How did my guesses turn out? How did Game of Thrones fare in 2017? Let’s just say we’ve got a few things to celebrate today. Game of Thrones leads the awards once more with 22 nominations, followed by Westworld and Saturday Night Live with 21 each, but it’s the first year in 18 years that HBO does not lead the overall nominations; that honor goes to Netflix this year! Who was nominated? Read on and find out!
There are two major categories for which Game of Thrones was eligible to be nominated but wasn’t: Best Actor and Best Actress, for which HBO submitted Kit Harington and Emilia Clarke as leads for the first time. The show, however, was nominated in pretty much everything else possible:
Best Drama Nominees:
The Americans (FX)
The Crown (Netflix)
Game of Thrones (HBO)
The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu)
Stranger Things (Netflix)
This is Us (NBC)
Westworld (HBO)
Best Supporting Actor Nominees
Nikolaj Coster-Waldau – Game of Thrones (HBO)
Peter Dinklage – Game of Thrones (HBO)
Mandy Patinkin – Homeland (Showtime)
David Harbour – Stranger Things (Netflix)
Matt Smith – The Crown (Netflix)
Joseph Fiennes – The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu)
Best Supporting Actress Nominees
Lena Headey – Game of Thrones (HBO)
Millie Bobby Brown – Stranger Things (Netflix)
Vanessa Kirby – The Crown (Netflix)
Ann Dowd – The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu)
Yvonne Strahovski – The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu)
Alexis Bledel – The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu)
Thandie Newton – Westworld (HBO)
Best Guest Actress Nominees
Dame Diana Rigg – Game of Thrones (HBO)
Cicely Tyson – How to Get Away with Murder (ABC)
Viola Davis – Scandal (ABC)
Kelly Jenrette – The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu)
Cherry Jones – The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu)
Samira Wiley – The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu)
Best Directing Nominees
Jeremy Podwesa – Game of Thrones (HBO) – ‘The Dragon and the Wolf’ – 707
Alan Taylor – Game of Thrones (HBO) – ‘Beyond the Wall’ – 706
Jason Bateman – Ozark (Netflix) – ‘The Toll’
Daniel Sackheim – Ozark (Netflix) – ‘Tonight We Improvise’
The Duffer Brothers – Stranger Things (Netflix) – ‘Chapter Nine: The Gate’
Stephen Daldry – The Crown (Netflix) – ‘Paterfamilias’
Kari Skogland – The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu) – ‘After’
Best Writing Nominees
David Benioff & D. B. Weiss – Game of Thrones (HBO) – ‘The Dragon and the Wolf’ – 707
Phoebe Waller-Bridge – Killing Eve (BBC America) – ‘Nice Face’
The Duffer Brothers – Stranger Things (Netflix) – ‘Chapter Nine: The Gate’
Joel Fields & Joe Weisberg – The Americans (FX) – ‘Start’
Peter Morgan – The Crown (Netflix) – ‘Mystery Man’
Bruce Miller –The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu) – ‘June’
Here are other categories for which Game of Thrones is nominated:
Outstanding Production Design For a Narrative Period or Fantasy Program (One Hour or More) – ‘Dragonstone’ – 701
Outstanding Sound Editing for a Comedy or Drama Series (One Hour) – ‘The Spoils of War’ – 704
Outstanding Casting for a Drama Series
Outstanding Sound Mixing for a Comedy or Drama Series (One Hour) – ‘Beyond the Wall’ – 706
Outstanding Special Visual Effects – ‘Beyond the Wall’ – 706
Outstanding Stunt Coordination for a Drama Series, Limited Series or Movie
Outstanding Single-Camera Picture Editing for a Drama Series – ‘The Spoils of War’ – 704 & ‘Beyond the Wall’ – 706 & ‘The Dragon and the Wolf’ – 707
Outstanding Fantasy/Sci-Fi Costumes – ‘Beyond the Wall’ – 706
Outstanding Hairstyling for a Single-Camera Series – ‘The Dragon and the Wolf’ – 707
Outstanding Makeup for a Single-Camera Series (Non-Prosthetic) – The Dragon and the Wolf’ – 707
Outstanding Prosthetic Makeup for a Series, Limited Series, Movie or Special – The Dragon and the Wolf’ – 707
Outstanding Music Composition for a Series (Original Dramatic Score) – Ramin Djawadi
I will return before the Emmys with an analysis and final thoughts before the winners are announced. Congrats to all!
The 70th Primetime Emmy Awards will air live from the Microsoft Theater at L.A. Live on Monday, Sept. 17 from 5-8 p.m. PT / 8-11 p.m. ET on NBC. Saturday Night Live‘s Michael Che and Colin Jost will co-host the event.
NICOLAJ FINALLY GOT A NOM
I can die happy now
I said from the beginning that Kit & Emilia getting a nomination in leading was a stretch for season 7.
Too much time has passed, and both of them probably had less screentime than many supporting roles in other shows.
However, I think this is HBO posturing them for the final season.
The material for them will likely be hefty, and I could see both of them taking the trophy for the farewell season.
The Americans deserve all the awards this year. Regarding GoT, Lena Headey and Ramin Djawadi are long past due to get Emmys. And how did the director of The Spoils of War not get nominated? It was the season’s best episode.
Congrats to GoT!
I would expect them to win the majority of the effects and makeup categories, as per usual.
I’m a bit surprised that Alan Taylor was nominated for “Beyond the Wall” considering how much criticism that episode received. I’m also equally surprised that Shakman wasn’t nominated for “Spoils of War”, which, to me, was by far the best episode of the season, of course, YMMV.
Yep, the acting categories not much of a surprise. I agree that Kit and Emilia might have had a better chance in supporting. I did not expect the Stark girls with (that) material. I’ll continue to hope that Maisie gets some really challenging material in S8 to show her stuff again. It’s great to roll up the most nominations again though. 🙂
* guess I’ll have to find a way to watch Handmaid’s. I do love me some Strahovski! Chuck was my favorite show when it was on and she was a big reason. 😉
Sophie Turner is now officially the only one from Big 7 that never get nominated for the Emmy.
Djawadi should win all the awards!!
Not at all surprising in my opinion.
I hope Lena Headey will finaly win since she is the only one from GoT in her category and there are 3 actresses from THT.
Clob,
Is this the first time he is even nominated?
Wasn’t most of the criticism mainly about the “how” and timing of things rather than the quality of it though?
I’m 100% sure that Diana Rigg will win. Her last scene was just iconic.
Mr Derp,
Shakman is just not that big name on TV like Taylor or Podeswa. I think it is similar to situation we had with S5 when Sapochnik wasn’t nominated, because he wasn’t a big name then.
Clob,
It was still smart of HBO to put them in lead
I bet both were close to getting the nomination in the voting and it postures them to win in season 8, where they will likely have some really huge material … if season 8 ends well, thrones could sweep
HelloThere,
I agree.
Clob,
I’m certainly no expert on how things are run behind the scenes, but wouldn’t the “how” and “timing” be part of a director’s responsibilities? Don’t they control the creative aspect of film making, including the dramatic and artistic aspects, which was part of the criticism of that episode?
Second nom (2014 in same category). There was that hubbub about “Light of the Seven” for S6 not even being submitted because it wasn’t an entirely original piece (from his other scores within the show).
She is very talented, but hasn’t been seen as a big name yet, I’m guessing S8 could do it. Imo she is leaps and bounds more talented than Clarke, who almost always gets nominated. Tons of great actors on Got never get nominated due to popularity and limited slots. Sophie’s acting in the finale was some amazing shit.
Efit: I love Clarke and think she’s done good work as Can’t, I just feel sophie has grown more as a actress. No disrespect intended. 🙂
Mr Derp,
I suppose that’s true. Then again, maybe only some super-fans like those of us here really dig too deep into those kinds of things. Do the Emmy voters really concern themselves with wondering if Daenerys could have gotten word of what was happening and then fly all the way beyond…? *shrug*
Mr Derp,
I don’t think there was a way for any director to make timeline work perfectly in that episode.
Podeswa was nominated for 506 and that episode was even more controversal on internet
Yes Nikolaj and Lena!!!
Clob,
mau,
Yea, I understand what you all are saying. No hate for Alan Taylor or that particular episode here. I’m just saying that IMO Matt Shakman deserved to be nominated over Alan Taylor for their respective work in season 7.
BeardedOnion,
That is your opinion that you’re entitled to, I just don’t agree. Personally I’ve always thought she has struggled with range and line delivery has been grating at times in earlier seasons. She has gotten better the last couple of seasons, especially S7. However, like I’d written in the pre-nom thread, her part wasn’t very challenging in S7. She just kind of had to ‘be herself.’ So while I agree that she did do very well in the finale, none of it was what I would consider outstanding Emmy worthy material that separated her from other submitted actresses.
Clob,
“I did not expect the Stark girls with (that) material. I’ll continue to hope that Maisie gets some really challenging material in S8 to show her stuff again.”
_______________
I’m cautiously optimistic that S8 will highlight Maisie Williams. Here’s my relatively unfounded speculation:
GRRM has always planned for Arya to play a big role in the endgame. It’s just that he still hasn’t gotten around to mapping out her post-Braavos story. So, the showrunners filched a bit of Lord Manderly’s “Frey Pies” subplot and the entirety of Lady Stoneheart’s Frey extermination story, and transferred them to Arya. But after S7e1, Arya was essentially a benchwarmer, inserted into the less-than-enthralling LF-Sansa WF story line. I’m sure the showrunners realized they couldn’t sideline (one of) the show’s most popular characters for an entire season, so they had to give Arya something to do; keeping her in Braavos for yet another season would’ve made no sense.
But now that the endgame is upon us, I have faith that the show will prominently feature Arya in S8. Therefore, I am (prematurely) predicting Maisie Williams will be nominated, and will likely be the frontrunner, for the supporting actress Emmy next year.
Taylor is nominated because of how well known he is to that Academy as compared to Shakman. There is always going to be some level of politics and popularity involved. I don’t think Kit and Emilia will ever win in lead. If they submit them in lead again next season they may get nominated due to it being the final season but I don’t think they would win. I think Lena has an excellent chance of winning this year with Emilia out of the way and not splitting the vote with her. Peter may win again but much of that has to do with my Taylor vs Shakman point.
Thrilled to see NCW get a nomination! I’d like to think that both of them have a chance, but we’ll see.
I totally agree that with better material, Maisie would/should have been nominated (in place of Millie BB), but with Lena alone in the category for the first time in a few years, I’m really hoping for a win for her! There might be too much of a split with three nominations from The Handmaid’s Tale, so her only real competition might be Thandie Newton? Although if Millie BB takes it away from her, I’m going to be fuming. I’ve never understood the hype around Stranger Things and Eleven. It’s a good show, and she’s a good character and does a fine acting job, but I don’t see it being award-worthy.
Diana Rigg has to win for her guest appearance!
It’s also long overdue that Ramin gets a win for the music!
And I’m definitely hoping for some knockout material for Maisie in S8 so that she gets another deserved nomination (and potential win)!
Ten Bears,
Maise will have to content with Lena, who will likely have an intense final season .
I think D&Ds favorite character is Cersei, and she will get a massive conclusion to her arc
I would be very happy if Nikolaj won – serious talent there with our Jaime. 🙂 I love Peter, but this was not his season.
HelloThere,
I think you’re right about that, for sure. I would assume that Cersei’s unborn child will die and that will be what ultimately sends her over the edge.
Hell, she’s pretty much already at the precipice of insanity as of the end of season 7.
mau,
Well she’s not a very good actor. *shrug*
HelloThere,
I don’t think Maisie would win against Lena, but I think she has a very strong chance of being nominated again, which is all I’m asking for.
Mr Derp,
Cersei final descent into madness and misery is the storyline I’m looking forward to the most
I heartily agree. I also don’t see how Beyond the Wall beat it for special visual effects?!
Enharmony1625,
It’s highly unlikely that Maisie would have been nominated over Millie in other circumstances. Millie is the face of her show.
All of the ‘other’ nominations are right on the money! Im also glad to see Nik get a nom, but really wished Peter was exchanged for Alfee.
I don’t watch much tv, but based on what I hear from my friends, GOT has there work cut out for them in other areas.
HelloThere,
Yes in fact I could see GOT probably sweeping all the major awards for the last season of the show.
Clob,
Wow hasn’t he been nominated before?
HelloThere,
I can’t wait to see how it all plays out for everyone! I have an emotional attachment and investment into pretty much all of the remaining characters and I think it’s exciting that I have no idea how it’ll play out for any of them. Ok, well actually, I’m both looking forward to it and dreading it to be honest with you since I’m expecting the majority of the characters to die, including the dragons and direwolves. Season 8 will rip our hearts out and show them to us before stomping all over them with stiletto heels.
Sam’s the only character remaining that i feel pretty confident about how it will end for him. I assume, like most people, he’ll be the one to write “A Song of Ice and Fire” after all is done, similar to the way Bilbo wrote “The Hobbit” within Tolkien’s universe.
BeardedOnion,
agree with everything you said sophie is very talented she’s been killing it since season one but people refuse to see that because they hate sansa so much which stills blows my mind
The Americans deserves to finally get recognized for Best Drama now for their final season.
Sean C.,
But she was so unimportant in S2.
I didn’t follow filming spoils this time around, but did 10 months of filming really not reveal and info or leaks for any of the characters or story arcs?
Congrats to GoT leading with the most noms! Hope they win Best Drama again. I think Moss is a shoe in for lead actress again, so it wouldn’t have even mattered if Emilia got in.
Jack Bauer 24,
No. Only fake leals. HBO did a god job.
Leuf,
If GOT doesn’t win, I hope The Americans do. I also want Rhys and Russell to win best actor/actress.
anthony jordan,
That’s not my reasoning. I’ve always found Sophie’s performance to be unremarkable, with one or two scenes being the exception. She has gotten better as the series progressed, but I think she is still a weaker actress than Lena, Maisie, and Emilia.
BeardedOnion,
Sophie isn’t very good actor. In her scenes with anyone else, she’s outshined, because she always has the same ‘resting witch face’ on.
Compared to Maisie for example, Sophie is lightyears behind her.
As for Clarke, lets face it…
The script she had to deal with during s7 was shit. Period. Plus Clarke had to do a lot of her scenes with ‘green stuff’ and in a foreign language. I really doubt Sophie could’ve handled any of that. So Clarke definitely has my sympathies.
With that crappy script, I am wondering how D&D even got nominated in the first place. The finale wasn’t really any better than the rest of the season.
That has nothing to do with it for me. I’ve written enough about the topic in the past that I don’t need to or feel like doing it again.
Yes! Ramin Djwaldi!
hoover2001,
Agreed. “Spoils of War” was better than the last 3 episodes by far. I was very disappointed in the sixth and seventh episode, and the excellence of SoW only added to that. Showing that GoT was still capable of brilliance and yet gave us that? I love this show, but I don’t think it deserves wins in the writing/directing categories w/those nominations.
And as much as Headey has deserved it in the past, she doesn’t deserve it in season 07 against Yvonne Strahovski. Neither does Thandie Newton (who TOTALLY deserved it for season 01 of Westworld), not for this season. Strahovski absolutely killed it this season of The Handmaid’s Tale. Unless, they give her some amazing stuff in the last season, I honestly think that Headey’s time to win has passed. *sigh* She so should have gotten it for season 05.
If Dinklage submits ‘Spoils of War,’ he may have a shot, but other than that, I don’t think GoT will win any acting awards.
Clob,
Word of caution with Handmaid’s, it is a very bleak show. I love it but it is bleak and the moments of hope are scarce. It is also terrifying in that it is the type of society we could easily become if we fail to see the signs taking us there.
Cersei’s Brain,
I hope he wins too. I partially learned how to play “Light of the Seven” on piano a little while ago and holy crap that song is hard to play. The amount of finger stretching on that song is insane! I know that song isn’t nominated this time, but damn, he deserves an Emmy just for playing such challenging pieces. I love the song, but I had a newfound respect for him after understanding what it takes to play that song.
Sean C.,
Yeah, I suppose.. Although for me, I was more impressed by the actor who plays Will in season 2 than Millie.
Mr Derp,
Dan and Dave run the show so I assume all screenplays are either written by them or a OK’d by then before they go into production. In a film, a director is usually (but not always or completely) who runs the show. A Spielberg, Nolan will have complete control. A lesser known director (see anyone who handles a Marvel or Star Wars film) will have to more or less follow the executive producer’s guidelines. He/she gets creative input but can be roped in if the money people don’t like where he/she is going with the story, etc.
In TV, show runners are the ones with final say. Directors follow screenplays, they may have input but would never change something major without first consulting the showrunners. But the timeline in that episode is hard to “fix” so that it falls into the realm of “credibility.” Can Gendry run that fast and long in such cold weather? Could a raven fly fast enough to get a message to Dany on time? Probably not. But it wouldn’t be the first time we had suspend belief in GOT. So Dany is not killed by fire, her clothes are burnt off but her hair isn’t? Really?
Anyhow all this to say that this particular director would not be judge by how (good or poorly) a timeline was written on a script he didn’t write. He would be judge by visuals, pace, mood, atmosphere and even performances by his actors.
D&D should definitely win for best writers… The foreshadowing in season 7 is just as strong as all the other amazing Game of Thrones seasons. I think the foreshadowing scenes forecast
mau,
Every year I’m championing Lena to win but this year I can’t. Thandie was too good in WW. I’m so torn..
There was a lot of love for Game of Thrones, but based on the acting noms, I would say that “The Handmaid’s Tale” will triumph this year. The exclusion of both Clarke and Harington, although a bit surprising, is not something I would call snubs.
Nikolaj getting in is surprising. He was always there on the verge, but never getting it. Dinklage and Headey are the usual suspects in this game. Headey will face the entire female supporting cast of “The Handmaid’s Tale”. Bledel or Starahovski would be my choices, especially after amazing finale, but it is fair game now. I cross my fingers for NCW.
Overall, GOT got what it deserved. I am not very fond of writing and I do hope “The Americans” will triumph in that category. We’ll see…
Daniela,
Yup. I felt that way when I read the book, and that was 40 years ago. Feel worse now, and have not watched the show. Can’t bear it.
firstone,
I like it. Someone’s gotta be regent tho – Tyrion? Sansa? Oh, Breine!
Oh congratulations all! Great news – nice to see Thrones still dominating!
Going to bet Kit & Emilia will be on next year – or whenever Season 8 will be eligible. That’ll be when HBO does the huge push for them. In the interim, fab to see all the new nominees.
Don’t take much interest in awards like Emmys or Oscars, it’s all subjective and political but if Ramin Djawadi doesn’t win for Dragon and the Wolf then it is a fix😠
I don’t hate Sansa at all on the show. In fact, I dislike Sansa in the books, but I like her on the show. Actually, it’s BECAUSE of Sophie Turner’s performance that I actually have found an empathy and find myself enjoying Sansa way more than I ever did in the books.
Despite that I still don’t think that Sophie Turner’s performance is Emmy (or Award)-worthy of any kind. I don’t think she’s a bad actress at all. In fact, I think she’s a good actress. I just don’t think that she elevates her material. I think she’s had some stand-out scenes. An actor can be a good actress, have stand-out moments here and there and still NOT be award-worthy.
There’s great, award-worthy actors and then there are good actors who have great moments. Turner falls in that category. There’s nothing wrong with that. Not every actor who turns in a good performance HAS. TO. BE. NOMINATED. FOR. AN. AWARD! just because they are in deservedly award-winning productions. And just because some viewers feel this way doesn’t mean they “hate” the characters or dislike the actors.
ash,
The second season which obviously goes beyond the story in the book, kind of touches a bit into the smaller things that happened and were unchallenged or not given the importance necessary which eventually led to Gilead. Like a woman needing her husband’s signature to pick up prescription (read the pill). Not so very different that the idea that some people have that a man has any right to legislate what women do or not do with their bodies. So the show is scary that way but cautionary I guess for those paying attention.
JenniferH,
Exactly. I can never understand why it has to be one extreme or the other. It’s like one has to think Sophie Turner is either the best-of-the-best or the worst-of-the-worst without considering anything in between.
Love the avatar by the way. I live near Washington D.C. and couldn’t have been happier that the Caps finally won the Cup!
Congrats GoT for the consistent nominations but I believe this will be the year of The Americans. There were many moments during TA’s final season that approached Breaking Bad levels of intrigue and tension. I hope Wimsey watched it because they hung many guns during the season that were never fired…and it worked!
Alan Taylor had the advantage of a wonderful backdrop. Mountains never disappoint. He did a fantastic job with a much-criticized script.
Rooting for Djawadi as well.
Best drama
My choice: Game of thrones or Stranger’s things. Americas only at season 4, can’t say nothing about season 6. Handmaid’s tale, still don’t understand the hype and how it empowers woman, for me GoT does that much better.
Which I think will win: The crown or handsmaid’s tale.
Best supporting actor
My choice: Nikolaj Coster-Waldau or Mandy Patinkin. Difficult because both were amazing in the seasons they were in. Peter was amazing in season 7 but for me loses to those 2 actors.
Which I think will win: Matt Smith, still an amazing actor. He was amazing in season 1 of the crown even when I couldn’t get into the show. So probably he’s amazing in the second season as well.
Best supporting actress:
My choice: Lena Headey all the way. Some people would say that season 7 wasn’t her season because of material but for me they are wrong. It’s much easier for an actor to let the emotion flow instead of what Lena did in season 7, show as little as possible but enough that needs to be shown. Her scene in episode 1 when Jaime talked about their kids, Lena portrait it perfect, Cercei had the feelings but didn’t want to show them (because then she breaks down), we saw that perfectly, we saw emotion but the moment it was shown she turned it down. Same with episode 3, emotion perfect transition to not emotion. And don’t forget her scene with Tyrion.
And much praise for Millie Bobby Brown, one of the few young actors that actually act as if she had years of experience.
And much much praise to Ann Dowd, even when I dislike handmaids tale, she’s a very gifted actress. She was amazing in leftovers and Handmaids tale need to be lucky to have her. Same for Yvonne S.
Which I think will win: Lena Heady or Yvonne S.
Best guest actress:
My choice and hopefully wins: Diana Riggs. One of the best of our time.
Best directing: Only know the GoT episodes. Jeremy Podwesa wins for me, because of one scene, winter is in Kingslanding/old town. One of the best scenes of the whole series.
Best writing:
My choice: D&D or Joel fields, depends how much I like season 6 of the americans.
Which I think will win: Peter morgan.
Visual effects they need to win.
Firstly… GO CAPS! It’s still surreal, honestly.
Secondly, yeah, I don’t get it either. Not everyone is a great actor/actress worthy of awards, but there are a lot of good actors out there. If we don’t think an actor should get nominated and/or win an award does that mean we think they’re the worst and/or hate the character? It is completely illogical and is such a cure of the radical fandom mentality, I fear.
Congratulations GoT!!!!!
Didn’t really expect they would’ve get this many nominations. Special shout-out to Nikolaj!
HelloThere,
But still how amazing Kit and Emilia are, you can’t deny that many actors that got nominated are much better. I don’t think they will get an Emmy for the last season. Still they are amazing won’t deny that, but some are better.
This made me hyped, I’m currently on season 4, and it feels good to know the last season is amazing.
And about the Spoils of War, yes it was for us the best episode of the season, but that’s a combination of every department that worked on the episode. They only look at the directing part. SoW had an amazing ending but before that nothing really special shown out as far as directing goes. With episode 6 and 7, the whole episode was perfectly directed.
the problem was indeed the writing, not the directing. Every scene in Beyond the Wall was amazingly shot. Especially the part where Dany was beyond the wall, Jon in the water, Dany looking for the return of Jon. The boat scene etc, every scene was so perfectly shot. And no director cound fix what D&D wanted to happen, they could discuss it with them but that’s it. And secondly maybe there was a scene where it made more sense but they cut it, we never know.
Mr Derp,
We don’t know what season 8 will bring. Maybe some character we think are good turned to the “evil” side. And maybe Cercei is part of the group that defeat the NK. GRRM always talks about that some heroes from our history books aren’t really that heroic, and same with the villains not that evil. We can expect that westeros history will remember Cercei as one of the heroes, but we know she started as a villain.
JenniferH,
Braden grew up about 2 hours away from me…we always claim the Saskatchewanites as though we knew them personally. 😂 2 former NHLers are my neighbours. I was also super happy the Caps won!!!
This.
Aww, that’s awesome. I love him. He’s the one who made me a Caps fan! I began watching the Caps (and hockey!!) when he became the goalie during the 2012 playoffs. So, yeah, I haven’t even remotely experienced the many, many years of agonies as a Caps fan losing… only 5. Didn’t make the win any less joyous!
firstone,
Martin is on record saying he liked Tolkien’s LOTR ending and Aragorn married his princess so I fully expect Jon and Dany will both survive and marry. They may decide to leave Westeros but I don’t see them doing a repeat of Jon’s parents by having them both die and leaving behind a baby. That’s just little too cliche for Martin and far too predictable.
And why didn’t Claire Danes not get nominated this season? She’s one of the best out there, and she delivered one of the best performances of the year, and not just one episode, every episode she was in.
About the discussion who is the better actress, season 7 for me Emilia wins. Only episode 7, for me Sophie wins. But Maissie is the overall best of the 3 in my opinion but the worst in season 7. It’s all about what they get. And both 3 are amazing. But for a further career I think Sophie has the most prospect, she already broaden her carreer with X-men, she had made some right decisions about which shows/movies she’s going to perform in next. The movies of Emilia weren’t that great, Terminator, Solo. but I wish them all 3 good fortunes in the films to come.
kevin1989,
I think if Sophie wants to stay a “thing” she should try to get in another promising, large ensemble cast drama again, such as those big ones in the works by Amazon or TWoT if it ever happens. This is true for some of the others as well. At any rate, I don’t foresee her becoming a leading lady star, unless she’s content with stinkers like Josie.
No clash with GOT here so I can say I hope Darren Criss wins for ‘Assassination of Gianni Versace’. He pulled off an extraordinarily compelling performance, absolutely magnetic.
I’m THRILLED that Nikolaj Coster-Waldau finally got a long-overdue Emmy nomination for his superb work in Season 7! I’m also extremely happy for Lena Headey, Peter Dinklage, Diana Rigg, David Benioff & D.B. Weiss, Alan Taylor (hell yes to Beyond the Wall love!), Jeremy Podeswa, RAMIN DJAWADI, and of course, the show itself. The entire cast and crew delivered a brilliant season of television, and I’m so pleased to see their efforts rewarded by their peers in the industry!
I’m disappointed that Kit Harington and Emilia Clarke didn’t get nominations, as they were my personal MVPs for Season 7 (I thought Emilia, in particular, delivered her very best work of the entire series this year). But once they moved up to the Lead category, it was always going to be a challenge (I think that Sean Bean was the only other GOT actor who has ever competed in that category). I’m also sad that Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams couldn’t break through (especially Sophie, since she’s never been nominated before). But the competition in the Supporting Actress category is brutally tough. Oh well. They’ve got one more chance next year!
In non-Game of Thrones-related Emmy news, I’m very happy to see The Americans, Matthew Rhys, and Keri Russell all picked up nominations again. The Americans has consistently been my second-favorite show on TV after Game of Thrones for the past several years (since Breaking Bad went off the air), and I thought the final season was a represented a great return to the series at its best (after a mild dip in Season 5). I’m also pleased to see Westworld pick up noms across the board, particularly for Jeffrey Wright and Thandie Newton. A good day, all in all. 🙂
I hope to see the GOT magnificent seven nominated. But in the actress category, only Lena stands a chance. Especially with Handmaid’s Tale. Elisabeth Moss is outstanding in an excellent show of superb acting, directing and writing. It’s a dark subject, the original novel, amazingly written maybe 30 years ago, shows a dystopia world after extreme right took control and killed off everyone that disagreed. Goes into Old Testament barbarism full tilt. It’s frighteningly realistic and Moss’s performance has you on the edge of your seat the entire time. She is amazing!
I don’t expect the GOT leads (Jon & Emilia) to get more than a nom, but Nikolai or Lena surely are worthy of a win. There’s just so many good actors out there and his time will be limited.
Nikolai should’ve been nominated for S3. That was his best work as Jaime (and the juiciest part of his arc).
Congrats to all those involved with GoT in front of and behind the camera for much deserved recognition, special nod to NCW for his nomination and hopeful win.
With all due respect, I think that’s an unfair assessment. I agree with JenniferH and Mr Derp regarding Sophie Turner – I’m not sure why it has to be one extreme or the other. For me, Sophie Turner is neither the best or the worst. She’s had some stand-out moments (eg. the scene with Sansa on the Traitor’s Walk in 1×10) but otherwise, I don’t have strong feelings (negative or positive) about her performance. Turner is a completely competent actress and I think she’s perfectly fine, but I personally don’t feel her performance is particularly award-winning. I think that’s a-okay: some performances speak to some of us more than others.
And that has nothing to do with the character of Sansa. I like Sansa. From episode 1×10 onward, one of my biggest desires of the series was for Sansa to escape and get to a family member (that isn’t Aunt Lysa) who will actually protect her. I was so happy when she actually made it to Jon in Season 6. Especially early on in the series, there were times I’ve defended Sansa to my friends who also watch GOT/read ASOIAF. Nonetheless, me not thinking Turner is the best has nothing to do with what I think of the character of Sansa.
There are plenty of characters I dislike but I think the actors are phenomenal. I hate Ramsay but I thought Iwan Rheon did a great job. I’m certainly no fan of Tywin’s character but Charles Dance? I loved him and loved watching him on screen. I’m not a big Cersei fan at all (although I do enjoy her sometimes in the way I enjoy Lucille Bluth – hilarious but horrible ;D) but Lena Headey is incredible. Likewise, I don’t even know how to feel about Serena Joy from The Handmaid’s Tale – I’ve sometimes felt rage blooming in my chest from watching Serena- but Yvonne Strahovski’s portrayal of her is wow wow wow. I don’t know who I prefer: Elisabeth Moss or Yvonne Strahovski because they’re both exceptional.
So, in conclusion to a long post, I don’t feel somebody’s feelings about a character (positive or negative) should be used to dismiss somebody’s feelings about the actor’s portrayal of that character (positive or negative) 🙂
It’s the other way around for me. I think Sophie’s performance and her take on Sansa has made the character unlikeable. As per the showrunners, Sansa is supposed to be diplomatic, courteous, manipulative, smart etc. – but the way Sophie plays Sansa she just comes across as petulant, discourteous and rude. I am not sure if that is what Sansa is supposed to be on the show or if that’s just bad acting on Sophie’s part. Sophie does better opposite more seasoned actors like Peter and Lena. But opposite Kit and Maisie, she was terrible.
Anyways, other than Dinklage and Lena Headey I don’t think any of the actors on the show give award worthy performances compared to some of the other shows out there. All the actors on AMC’s Terror >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any of the main cast on GOT.
They won for the writing of Battle of the Bastards last year! After that nothing surprises me in terms of these guys getting noms for GOT writing.
I wonder if the final season will be eligible at next years Emmy’s, or will Season 8 premiere in the summer or even later and be ineligible and skip a year like Season 7.
Yays! I’d be delighted if they won it all (well, Nikolaj and Peter would have to slice it in half…but I think it’s Nik’s year!) Drama series, Diana, and the Lannister twins would be the best. Maybe Maisie (or even Kit, Emilia, and/or others) can do it in S8. =] Sophie…I’m not sure I like her acting as much as Maisie’s/Lena’s/Emilia’s, but she’s good. And has improved. Yes, Sansa annoys me, but she plays her well. Guess it’s not THAT surprising that she hasn’t been nominated, though.
I’m sure we’ll continue to see many cast members pop up here and there and go, “Ah, look, it’s ____!” The ones with the most leading/star potential, well, I hope they get cast in things that are big enough to be seen and appreciated worldwide, but also, of course, good. ^^
mau,
She’s such a natural. It feels like she’s actually just playing herself lol.
Pigeon,
He is very good with subtle expressions and cocky attitude. I would love for him to win, though do think it would be unfair that Kit did not when he did so well in the season he was nominated for.
HelloThere,
2 seasons ago I believe, I was really hoping for a redemption arc for Cercei. For some reason I wanted her to get a wake up call and repent for how she’s acted. Just thought she might have it in her. Goes to show I’m a bit naive lol.
LadyGoodman,
For the dramatic dragons arrival and torching the wights and Viserion falling and being pulled out by chains. I don’t particularly think the wights were done all that well but a lot of work did go into it, also the D&D must-have polar bear wight lol. Imo that was just meh.
ash,
Totally not understanding why Alfie Allen has never been nominated.
anthony jordan,
No lol probably not. You can dislike/hate a character and still recognize the actor as being really talented.
Really hoping Diana, Nikolaj and Lena all pick up awards for their categories but I can see Millie Bobbie-Brown winning her category.
Also I wrote in your prediction thread about how Westworld S2 was receiving a fair bit of criticism, since then I’ve watched the first five episodes loved the first four and felt the fifth was slightly mixed so I wish that show well too.
Also I don’t believe the Americans airs over here in the UK so no idea what level of competition that represents.
Sansa’s arc was great before S6. It’s not so much that I enjoyed seeing her being abused, but her arc was so much different than any of other characters on the show, she was always stuck in awful situations and really didn’t have any overwhelming talents to bail her out, though she was maturing and getting more cynical. I feel like she’s a prime example of how the show changed late in the game because D & D felt like they needed to placate more sensitive audiences ::sigh::
^^^^ Spot on, Shakman I thought was a certain nomination and winner in that category.
That isn’t bad acting, it’s bad writing (and perhaps to some extent, direction). While Sansa is supposed to have the qualities you describe, she is not actually written as such. Sophie can’t make Sansa diplomatic and charming when the writing never has her engaging in persuasive diplomacy or using charm. She doesn’t write the plot that never actually has Sansa showing intelligence. She gives her best “austere ice queen” look and poses for the visual scenes meant to convey that Sansa’s cool now, which is all the showrunners ultimately rely on.
ygritte,
Alfie has never been submitted for consideration (or submitted himself).
I agree that a lot of it is the fault of the writing. But a lot of it also depends on how the actor interprets and acts out the scene – especially considering that most of these directors and actors don’t even seem to know what exactly it is D&D want out of these scenes.
Let’s take the Winterfell plot last season. Sansa, rather loudly and rudely demands that Jon do what she says in front of the lords. Now does the show want us to think that
a) Sansa is indeed actively trying to undermine Jon
b) Sansa is an idiot and political novice and does not realize that she is undermining him or
c) as someone who is a political expert/charming, courteous diplomat, Sansa was trying to convince Jon to take her advice
Now, as per David and Dan, it looks they were trying to do point c. In which case Sansa should have adopted a nicer, less adversarial tone and suggested to Jon that her idea would be better – sort of how Tyrion advises Dany.
I had similar problems with all the Arya-Sansa scenes. Sophie’s ‘Ice Queen’ face tells me nothing about what she is supposed to be feeling – when the scenes depend on her showing something. Is Sansa scared of Arya, angry with Arya, tempted by power, unsure of Brienne? Or is Arya accusing her unfairly and Sansa manipulating LF till the very end? Since we were seeing that entire story from Sansa’s POV, it was upto her to do something with the material, elevate the writing, put her own interpretation if necessary and ACT IT OUT. Unfortunately we got nothing – which only made a badly written plot even worse.
Maisie’s acting once that whole nonsensical plot started was equally bad – but she was not given much to do other than confront Sansa, accuse her, threaten her and hen turn up to kill LF. This was the culmination of Sansa’s story – power or family – and unfortunately Sophie gave us nothing in my opinion.
Thing is, if that was how the scene was supposed to be played, that’s the director’s responsibility, as the person in charge of getting the tone right.
Moreover, the real point of that scene is to have a loud confrontation between Sansa and Jon, so a “nicer, less adversarial tone” works against that, and I’d say work against the lines as written on the page, which are not courteous or diplomatic (indeed, nothing about that scene is how a smart politician would approach it, because D&D don’t know how to write that, or else don’t find it interesting). The directing and acting of that scene are, so far as I can tell, entirely accurate in capturing what the writers want from that scene.
Much like the real point of most of the Sansa/Arya scenes is to make the audience think they might kill each other. Sophie’s Ice Queen face is meant to be troubled and ambiguous, keeping the audience on edge. There’s basically nothing on the page meant to articulate Sansa’s motivations, and in some cases it seems like the writers themselves didn’t know (for instance, the outline for Season 7 suggests two completely different and mutually exclusive motivations for her sending Brienne away).
I’d never claim Sophie is the best actress on the show, but I think she’s good, and she elevates the writing more often than not, while also exposing the limitations of expecting the actors to rescue the writing. Like, however much she tried to give Sansa some dignity in Season 3 (and boy could you see her trying), there’s not much she can do when the writing is determined to reduce her to a big joke.
The only time on the show where Sansa’s supposed politicking had any sophistication to it was the Vale confession scene, which Sophie aced (it remains, by far, the most convincing deception on the show, because the director explicitly eschewed all the usual acting ‘tells’ that Sansa is lying). Granted, much of what made that scene electric at the time was rendered void or otherwise irrelevant by Season 5, but it remains the only time the character was ever written as doing more than doing the obvious thing with information dumped into her lap by third parties.
Sophie is fine actress, but, yes, she is the worst from Big 7. Or the least good.
But GoT is just not “actors’ show”. Actors don’t really have enough time to show their talent in full capacity. There are just too many characters and storylines for that. It’s not typical drama TV show.
Actors are there to serve the story. I mean Robin Wright has more screentime in one episode of HoS than some “major” characters have in the entire season of GoT.
This is amazing!!!!!!!!!!
I am sad Emilia didn’t get a nom this year, I thought she was fantastic.
Love this show to pieces <3
So Sansa was actually angrily giving Jon orders in front of the lords? And thinks that this is the right way to go politically? How does that square with D&D’s – ‘Sansa is the best politician, Jon is an idiot’ – theme. Personally I feel like when Jon and Sansa have scenes it looks like Kit and Sophie yelling at each other instead of playing it as how Sansa would play it.
If Sophie’s ‘Ice Queen’ face is meant to be troubled and ambiguous then from where is Arya supposedly getting the idea that Sansa is power hungry? Or was that not the plot? Are you saying that Arya was completely mistaken and Sansa was just playing LF. Or was the plot that LF was manipulating both sisters?
How do we know that there is nothing on page to articulate Sansa’s motivations? The script mentions that she’s jealous of the bond between Arya/Brienne, that she is tempted to be queen when the lords offer to make her one, that she is constantly thinking about how she should be queen- A good actress would be able to tell us this with just her face. Looking constantly constipated is not going to tell us what is going on in her head.
Of course this is all subjective opinion and personal bias, but I have to totally disagree here about her elevating the material. She adds nothing to the material – just doing exactly what’s she’s asked to do – nothing more or less. There’s no extra thought or effort into why the character is doing so and so and how that should be played. That’s why her performance is so insipid and uninspiring.
A little change in tone, a softness when Sansa talks to Brienne – would have changed the dynamic there and not made Sansa such an ass. She could be manipulating Brienne into leaving, she would genuinely want Brienne to go – but her charm and niceness would have come through – that’s the whole point of the character. Did D&D write into the script that Sansa is arrogant and rude when she sends off Brienne? Or only that she does? Could Sophie have played that differently? Show Sansa seems like a child having a tantrum sometimes and that’s so much at odds with what she is supposed to be.
The problem here is that the character we see on the screen is so completely 100% different from what the showrunners are telling us about her. And since Sansa is the only character on the show who suffers from this problem I doubt it’s just the writing and directing.
But she’s also young and still learning. So her not being able to do much with the material is understandable and it’s not really fair to compare her to someone like Dinklage – who IS an actor who DOES elevate the bad, inexplicable writing that D&D give Tyrion.
Neat little info I just read…
With this nomination Dinklage has become the most-nominated ever for the best supporting actor Emmy. That is pretty cool 🙂
Again, if Sophie was playing this stuff wrong, the writers and directors would tell her to do it another way. Sophie is acting the badly-written story as it is written.
Also, we’re clearly positioned by the showrunners to be on Jon’s side in that argument.
I would say it’s entirely obvious from Sophie’s performance that Sansa wishes she was in charge (that’s evident from her dialogue alone), and that she’s unsettled in some way by what she sees in the Arya/Brienne duel. The script affords her no further opportunities to explore that issue, as it never returns to it. Large portions of the Winterfell plot make no real sense to me on a character level — I don’t know what the root of the conflict between the characters was supposed to be or how it was resolved, only that they’re supposed to be on good terms now thanks to talking offscreen.
However, the scene where Sansa is offered the crown is a case in point. It’s very different from how it plays on the page, both in terms of being shorter and much less dramatic. Sansa doesn’t even get a closeup during it; she’s shot entirely from a distance, with the director evidently not concerned with how she reacts to the proceedings. I don’t see what an actress could do there. Sophie can’t insist that the camera be on her.
Here, again, that’s not how that scene is meant to play, otherwise the director would have framed it that way. Sansa’s sending Brienne off is indeed meant to be sharp; that’s evident both from the dialogue and the way the director has Brienne react to it. Sophie didn’t just show up on set, say her lines that way, and then the director built everything else around that.
I would say there are many instances where what the writers see is quite different from what the audience sees. Sansa is definitely one of the more pronounced cases, which I think relates especially to how dependent she is on plotting intricacies.
The writers may, for instance, flatten Jon into being a great warrior with an honourable fixation on saving the world above all else, but that’s a broad, consistent motivation, and showing him being a great warrior ultimately can be done via giving him fight scenes, which the show does well (note that when the show depicts him as a battle commander, which requires more sophisticated material, the results are often poor, most obviously the Battle of the Bastards). Sansa’s arc depends entirely on political plotting that the writers are not good at — hence, them repeatedly giving her “great feats” that are not actually impressive. You can’t have a character evolve into a great politician without writing her as one.
And unlike other political characters whose skills have also markedly deteriorated in later seasons (Littlefinger, Tyrion, Varys, to name three), Sansa can’t coast on reputation from the early seasons, since she was supposed to be a naif at that point (and the parts of her book narrative that showed her cleverness generally got cut). Making Sansa into a player was entirely up to Benioff and Weiss, and they had no idea how to beyond cool poses and having her “win” in the end.
HelloThere,
Nikolaj deserves it… I feel like if he had been given material closer to the source material he would’ve had more chances. Jaime is an excellent complex&conflicted character, but on the show he’s not much of that, hurts an actor chances…
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Watching Sansa constantly being abused was never an option. There had to be some evolution to her character. I don’t particularly think the writers did a very good job turning her into a strong political leader, but it’s better than the alternative.
Remember the scene where Arya is about to ditch Needle and she can’t bring herself to do it? The writers wrote that scene as if Needle represented Arya’s revenge, but Maisie Williams played it a lot differently which made the scene much more powerful. That is an example of an actor/actress elevating a script. Sophie, unfortunately, seems incapacitated of doing that. The way you tell it, it’s the writers and directors who are responsible for bad acting rather than the performers, which I disagree with. The actors are responsible for the acting, no one else.
Young Dragon,
Maisie didn’t play it differently. The scene was Arya mournfully putting aside Needle. You can interpret what exactly she was sad about however you wish (and I think the writer’s oft-pilloried statement, while badly phrased, has been somewhat misinterpreted).
What’s being discussed here is whether Sophie is accurately portraying what the script calls for. And to that point, she is; my point is that while there is a gigantic gap between what the writers have scripted and what they think they’ve scripted, that is not something that the actress is responsible for. When the script calls for Sansa to be abrasive and confrontational rather than charming and diplomatic, her job is to act out the script. If she was not hitting the marks the production wanted from her, they would direct her to act accordingly. If the script called for her to be charming and diplomatic and she didn’t sell it, that’s an acting issue, but I can’t think of any Sansa scene that has ever aimed to feature charm.
The final May Sunday Season 8 could premiere and be eligible for the 2019 Emmy’s is Sunday May 12th 2019 aka: Happy Mother’s Day 2019
That might be too early. I’m thinking a summer or later premiere. Hopefully spring though!
If you want to watch good actors elevate bad material, the cast of “How To Get Away With Murder” does it well. The story is the lowest of soap-opera trash, but the cast milks every drop of guilty pleasure from the endless whirling of the over-contrived, over-driven plot, sharply punctuated by snappy one-liners. Per the nominations, Cicely Tyson and Viola Davis really shine in their mother-daughter scenes.
I’d recommend “The Handmaid’s Tale” for the same reason, but I cannot in good conscience ask anyone to waste minutes from a finite lifetime on watching Moss and Co. bravely do battle with the dreck that is their scripts.
Sean C.,
sigh I will have one reason to be thankful that this show ends – I would never have to read another thread turned into another Sansa argument! (I say this as a reader and a watcher, who has been at times happy and at times not with her performance and script. Im just tired of reading the same arguments). And yes, I will stop reading this and wait for the next post here…
ash,
Hey, this script vs. acting debate is a different argument than the one we usually have!
As much love as I have for the “main” cast, some more than others, it bums me out that the true supporting cast will not get a nomination. I’m talking about Gemma Whelan, Liam Cunningham, Rory McCann, Alfie Allen, etc.. These actors have provided some amazing moments and scenes that are crucial to the story and are equal to anything Peter or Lena or NCW have done. They just aren’t considered main players. The depth of talent on this show is amazing, we’re very lucky as fans, but it’s a bummer when these other actors don’t get a little bit of award show love.
I’ve never thought Emilia Clark was very good but she has grown on me quite a bit and made Dany far more interesting. Still, stacking her performance against the likes of Lena or Maisie or Carice, there’s no contest. I will always pull for Lena, even with lesser material, but can’t see her winning this year even if i think she’s due.
Sean C.,
No it’s the same. Why Sansa didn’t tell about the Vale army, why she was raped by Ramsay, why the show is not more political,…
mau,
Not really. This is about whether the problem is particularly acting or writing, not about debating the writing quality of the storyline. SerNoName is in agreement that it is poor. I don’t believe the rape came up here at any point.
Sean C.,
doesn’t look like it, but ok, knock yourself out 🙂
Sean C.,
No. The arguments are the same as always. And it is predictable. At the end of the day you will always blame D&D because it’s clear that you don’t like them, there are others here who will always blame Sophie, because it’s clear they don’t like her.
Are you saying that there are no bad actors and that directors can always fix how an actor acts a scene? The directors themselves have admitted to not knowing what many of the scenes were about. So if the scene is about Jon and Sansa arguing or Sansa sending off Brienne, why can’t Sophie attempt to make Sansa kinder and more diplomatic? Especially when she says things like this:
Does Sophie believe she was acting out all of the above attributes last season? If so, then she is either a terrible actor or not very bright.
Actually we do see her face, right before she notices Arya. And it’s blank. There’s no point in focusing on blank faced Sansa if she is not telling us anything.
My point is that Sophie as Sansa could have used the same words and a different tone to make it sound not as harsh. I am sure an intelligent, political leader should not come off on screen as stomping their feet and throwing a tantrum – behaving like a child while saying that she is not one. I don’t think a director is going to stop her if she modulates her tone a bit – and be like, no Sophie, yell louder!
But that’s pretty much who the character is and how Kit plays him. When you listen to Kit’s interviews he describes Jon as being not very politically adept or all that smart and just looking out for the common good. It’s same with Arya, Dany, Tyrion, Bran etc. – there’s not much deviation from what D&D think these characters are to what they are on page.
Writing for Sansa does not have to be about great political feats. Her best feature – atleast in the books – is how she gets things done with her charm and courtesies. All I am asking is that show Sansa be NICE to people. And not the arrogant, ill tempered child we see on the show. D&D don’t have do any complicated writing for this – all Sophie has to do is be less aggressive and more diplomatic when she talks to people – like Tyrion is when he talks to Dany, Jon, Jaime and Cersei.
She could have nicely, but firmly send off Brienne to KL. Brienne would still be unhappy that Sansa is not listening to her and Sansa would still come off as knowing the value of Brienne but needing to do this. I don’t think there is all that much to the writing here. It’s the acting that fleshes it out.
This is what I am talking about. Maisie can do wonders without even speaking a word. With just her face. The scene with Needle, her scene with Nymeria, when she first gets to WF. When she looks around Sansa’s room and gets jealous. When she sees LF watching her.
I don’t think that Arya and Tyrion have met on the show yet… I can’t wait for Maisie Williams and Peter Dinklage to share a scene. It’s going to be Arya-Tywin redux – beautiful to watch.
mau,
Typically we’re debating the writing quality, not Sophie.
No, I’m saying that directors set the tone of a scene. If an actor is approaching material in a way that is not in keeping with what the tone of the scene is going for, they will tell them that. Actors don’t just show up on set and do whatever they want. This is all gone over with the directors (and often the writers, when they are on set) in the course of filming. As when, for instance, Sapochnik did many, many takes of the scene where Sansa walks away from Ramsay being mauled until he got her smile looking exactly as he wanted.
Evidently, much like everybody else on the show does, from all indications.
But that scene is clearly supposed to sound harsh. Everything about how that moment is filmed, how Brienne reacts to it, etc. is in sync with that. It’s part of the writers trying to convince everybody that Sansa might be going to the dark side.
Whether or not it has to, that’s what the show indicates we’re supposed to think is occurring.
And yet, these scenes you’re talking about are meant to be confrontational; Sophie is playing them correctly. The writers do not write Sansa as charming and diplomatic. Indeed, I’m not sure charm is even meant to be one of her attributes on the show, because she’s never shown doing anything like that. She’s apparently meant to be diplomatic (e.g., Isaac Hempstead-Wright referring to Sansa as a great diplomat after Season 6), but that would come down to the writers not having her do anything of the sort.
Young Dragon,
I pretty much agree with you. Though I don’t know if either was a better option than the other, one was repetitive, the other kind of predictable.
The Americans deserves the Emmy for Best Drama and Best Writing. No doubt about it in my mind. However I don’t think they’ll get it, as the Emmys have increasingly rewarded more popular shows, at the expense of lesser known gems like The Americans or The Leftovers (the complete and utter snubbing of which was truly shocking last year).
Also can’t believe that 7.07 got nominated for Best Directing and not 7.04. Spoils of War is far, far more impressive from a directing standpoint than anything in the finale.
I’m not involved in show business in any way so I am maybe not qualified to say whether X or Y is or is not a good actor. I’ll just say I was surprised to discover there were a considerable number of people with little love for Emilia or Sophie but as the saying goes ‘twould be a dull world if we were all the same”. I haven’t watched much of “the competition” so can’t judge those shows. I doubt I’ll ever watch The Crown – I have enough of the British royal family in the news as I’m UK based and The Handmaid’s Tale doesn’t sound as though it would appeal to me. The fact that such shows aren’t to my taste doesn’t of course mean that they can’t be well acted, though as I say I can’t judge as I haven’t seen them. Not that I’m prejudiced or anything but I’d like Lena to win though I doubt she will. I tend to think of GoT as an ensemble effort (a bit like the Royal Shakespeare Company or actors at The National Theatre) though I appreciate an ensemble cast has its leading lights.
Sean C.,
Sigh. Ok.
This may sound like hate but I would say Sophie is the weakest main actor on the show. Closely followed by Kit and Emilia.
It doesn’t make them terrible but alongside Peter, Lena and Nikolaj they are against very good competition.
Virtually no chance S8 will air as late as the summer. The show runners said early 2018 and the most respected journalists suggest March, a crew member also suggested a big battle presumably in the last couple of episodes will air in April.
Good!! I was wondering where summer (GOD NO) was coming from. I’d been talking to people on WiC, and though the comments I’m looking for appear to have somehow vanished, I know somebody had just said that based on what (insert important people’s names I totally forgot) have said and their own logic based on the past, they were expecting February or March.
Lol, that whole Sophie/Sansa debate was a good read. xD Found myself in agreement with almost everything that was said, even though the commenters were disagreeing. Obviously writing, directing, and acting all interplay and impact the quality of the product. Sansa’s thoughts and motivations are often bafflingly murky…is that deliberate? You would think that if Sophie wasn’t at least approximating what they wanted for the scene, they’d direct her differently and use another take. I believe she is the only character who really hasn’t demonstrated being what we’re supposed to think she is. It doesn’t come across, like they’re telling rather than showing you. With bad writing, there’s only so much an actor can do to save it, but great ones will elevate poor material by bringing more to it than what’s written and letting their understanding of the role shine through… Perhaps with time Sophie will get better at that. She may not be one of those actors with immense talent that’s evident immediately, but she’s been at least adequate since the beginning. Been re-watching the show and just passed the ep where she lies about Baelish & Lysa…come to think of it, yeah, that may be her best scene.
But speaking of great actors…there are indeed some insanely talented people in the cast who don’t get individually nominated simply because they aren’t “main enough.” Which I find a shame; look at those very deserving names. (Hope Diana gets the win.) In some cases you may not even realize the immensity of their gifts until you watch them in something(s) else.
That; a million times that.
People keep on blaming the writing for episode six, but I have read the original script before seeing the episode. The script alone did not seem that unreasonable. It was the directing and the special effects that let them down. The biggest complaint was the timeline, they could have done a much better job to show that some time has passed while the magnificent seven was on a rock. They could have done a better job to show that the arrowhead mountain was actually close to the wall.
When the Night King throws the spear it seems like Viserion is much further away than Drogon. They could have made it appear as if Viserion was closer the Night King. The idea for Jon was to fight off large quantities of wights so that the other people could escape, it was a sacrifice, but they did not really convey that message.
All of these issues are related to what was being shown on screen and the way the episode was shot. I don’t think the writing alone should be blamed for this episode. It seems like they just took on too much of a challenge, and they were not able to adequately relay what was in the script.
I’m neither a Sansa nor a Sophie hater but for interest here is a (very short) clip from the BBC’s 2011 version of Great Expectations – //https://youtu.be/I1xcsKZYlAY The actress who plays young Estella (at about 1.08) whose name is Izzie Meikle-Small was (I read) the runner up choice to play Sansa when the Stark children were being cast. While I was looking things up on the internet I came across the fact that there is a film scheduled about Mary Shelley (who wrote Frankenstein). Elle Fanning is playing Mary Shelley but I noted that her father is being played by Stephen Dillane (Stannis) and a friend Isabel Baxter by Maisie Williams.
When I type “Izzie” the auto text on my computer changed it to “Ozzie”. I’m trying to cut down my visits here because of spoilers though I have visited over the last few days. Thinking of “Ozzie” I miss Oz of Thrones’ witty features and comments.
https://youtu.be/I1xcsKZYlAY The link didn’t work the first time so trying again.
Over the 7 years of the show there have been some very good actors even if they have been killed off in the story by now. Charles Dance as Tywin had presence I think even if he wasn’t a lookalike for book Tywin. I was impressed with Pablo Pascal as Oberyn even though he only had one season. There hasn’t been anyone I have really hated (not as an actor anyway). I hated the character of Talisa because the idea of somebody random cheeking a medieval king (even if its an alternative universe fantasy medieval king) didn’t ring true. And of course I loved to hate Joffers but that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate Jack Gleeson as an actor.
True about the Leftovers. And don’t forget the Emmy’s are very political, it’s not always about quality.
About 7×04 and 7×06/7×07 I have to disagree, as much as I liked 7×04, the only great part of it that was direct amazingly was the end. Before that there were in my opinion some scenes that was direct strangely, the way Dany turned when she made clear she’s done sitting around felt little bit to a blockbuster film. But episode 6 and 7 Had amazing directing from begin to end, the way they capture the nature around them, the boat scene was perfectly done etc. 7×04 wins in the writing department, 6 and 7 in the directing department.
People often can’t separate the objective aspects: writing/directing etc from what they liked the most. And sometimes better directing doesn’t mean better story. Look at Hannibal. Most people liked season 1 and 2 better than episode 1 to 6 from season 3. But Season 3 has a much much better directing.
Sean C.,
I have to agree with you mostly, I’m not saying Sophie is an amazingly actor like Peter or Lena, but what people attacked her for is not her fault. I always had the feeling that D&D never really cared for Sansa’s story, she’s pretty much dumb done, but later on that.
As you stated if the script says she needs to be harsh she needs to be harsh. Show Sansa isn’t supposed to be charming, so why people attack sophie because she’s not acting charming, I can’t understand. She does what she’s been told.
And for the people saying that Sean hate D&D because he blamed them and the directing for the problems that arise with Sansa’s character. I asked you a question:
Do you blame Lena and Nicolai for the debacle that happened in 4×03, the rape scene. Or do you blame the writing and directing that they fucked up that scene big time (referring to the rape scene that should have been interpretate differently as we need to believe D&D
– And now a scene from Harry Potter, movie 4, screaming Dumbledore: People attacked Gambon that he portrait Dumbledore wrong, people said it was his fault. Or is it the fault of the writing and directing that they asked that of him?
Same with Sophie, she does what she asked, if the script says: Be mean, she needs to be mean, and not charming. But people here expect her to throw away the script and asked charming, so we think she’s a good actress. And I think about a movie with Sean Bean (Charice van houten was in it too), his acting skills in that movie was subpar, but not his fault, he did with the script what he could.
I’m not saying Sophie is a perfect actress, but she delivers what’s she gets. (4×08 shows if the writing is good and directing she delivers something amazing for me her best scene to date)
And for D&D and directing they make mistakes:
– 4×03 rape scene.
– Sansa’s story they fucked up in my opinion. She had a change in 4×08 as the one who can control LF, in the books this trend continues, in the show they decided to merge 2 storylines and have LF the overhand again, which change her character completely and her season 4 storyline obsolete. If they had Sansa continue in season 5 where she left in season 4, as in the books, we would react differently to her character.
– Same with Jaime, his book storyline is better streamlined, he should have left her in season 5 or early in 6 not end 7. They decided to hold that.
I loved D&D for the story they put on screen, and they are amazing with plots, foreshadowing etc, but they are not perfect, they don’t have the character build feeling that GRRM has, or the political writing skills that need to be on GoT (don’t tell me GoT does it better than for instance HoC). Same with Sophie she’s not the best actress on the show, but don’t blame her for what’s written, what you can blame her for is not consulting with D&D about it, but she’s young, older actors do that more often.
Boudica,
True, but that’s a small part of the episode. Still the other part of the episode was perfectly shot. the producers should have made a note that the timeline should be fixed, they even wrote the episode, so they should have know that someting was wrong. But overall, the episode was amazingly shot, it felled like a movie to me.
About Viserion drogon, Vyserion was further away, you see that when he was hit, he passed drogon etc when falling down. Didn’t he attacked Vyserion because he was attacking his army, and Drogon was on the ground and not a treat and he could try to take Drogon out later.
And I don’t blame the writing alone for the timeline mistake. but it’s a 30 sec problem for an episode of more than an hour. the rest was perfectly done. As for me episode 4 rely only on the end. I liked episode 4 better totally, but episode 6 for the directing, it felled like a movie how it was shot.
kevin1989,
GoT is a better written show than HoC. And GoT is not only political drama, like HoC.
GoT better written? I like GoT better, it’s my favorite show. And my favorite story. But the writing in HoC is much much better. I would say GRRM is better writer than the ones on HoC. And D&D had the luck they could use his material in the first couple of seasons. But if you compare HoC writing with D&D, HoC writers are so much better and sophisticated. The dialogues in HoC is just pure gold in my opinion. There are no plotholes in HoC (or at least not big ones because I haven’t found one yet), but in GoT they pile up, side effect of a big story.
So not an attack on GoT it remains my favorite show. But for me as writing goes there are better shows out there. Where GoT is one of the best is directing. But that’s just my opinion.
This is all opinion. The only thing that is actual fact is that the scripts aren’t that good when compared to other shows. But it still makes for fun TV.
kevin1989,
I disagree with everything you said. The dialogue in GoT is much better, there are so much nonsense and plotholes in HoC, I think you didn’t found it because you are not that interested in HoC and you yre not part of that fandom. Go to any board where they are discussing HoC or read reviews from critics.
I mean if you have problem with the way Sansa is written what you can say about Clare Underwood? Frank’s motivation at the end of S5 makes no sense at all. It would be like if Cersei decieded to leave Iron Throne so she could be rich in Essos.
Rygar,
Her opinion is just opinion, but your opinion is a fact? Ok.
Oh I’m very much invested in HoC, and what you point out is not plothole, because those aren’t there, it’s more about the direction of the plotline. It’s something much different. And Frank’s motivation is not about being rich, it’s about expending his power. He found out in season 5 that the presidency isn’t the biggest power in the country, but in fact the companies, influence a lot of policies etc. He took that step so he isn’t that much in the spotlights anymore (which brought them downhill) letting Claire fill that role, making sure an Underwood will stay in power. He will take the power at the company’s part. And another thing that helped him when he stepped down, bigger chance he walk free and his house of cards won’t collapse. And character direction is more honkey in GoT, Sansa season 5, Jaime Season 5, Winterfell plot season 7, LF ending etc.
And if Cercei could expend her power she would do it. What I talk about is plotholes, Look in google Game of thrones plotholes and you find many links to big plotholes, I can overlook small ones, but big ones can be blamed on bad writing. Typ the same for House of cards and all you find is, small plotholes and not really one mention about.
For me GoT writing isn’t that on the same level as for instance Sopranos, Six Feet under, Leftovers, Mr Robot, Breaking bad etc. And I can name many more. Still GoT is one of the best. But you see that sometimes they have difficulty to get every storyline in 10 episodes and somethings felled rushed or just skipped. And did we forget the whole Dorne problem in season 5. Even the iron island plot could have been handled better in season 6.
So short: I’m not saying GoT is bad, in fact the writing is amazing. I just don’t overlook some mistakes that have arised. And even if GoT is my favorite, I have no problem with acknowledge their mistakes.
kevin1989,
My point is that GoT is just more popular and watched by more people and they can notice more mistakes you can find more complaints on internet about GoT. If we used the same criteria for those other shows and if thoise shows were overanalized like GoT they would fall apart as well, especially HoC.
See this.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/03/08/house-of-cards-is-the-worst-show-about-american-politics-ever/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.11ef44b26a77
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2016/03/04/did-house-of-cards-get-worse-or-has-it-always-been-this-bad/?utm_term=.e21ace1e90ef
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/oct/16/when-good-tv-goes-bad-house-of-cards
Thanks for the info. Monday will be 1 year since Season 7 premiered so a March premiere would be a little more then a year and a half between seasons. The Penultimate and final seasons of The Sopranos had about a year and a half between them as well.
But I’ve read some comments from HBO and they said they give David and Dan free reign and Season 8 will air whenever David and Dan say so. Since filming just ended maybe they’ll need a year of post production since I’m sure they are going to go all out with the visual effects and CGI. Might be too much to get done in 6 months that’s why I’m thinking a Summer premiere.
March is still 9 months away, not 6 (counting all of July since they finished at the end of June). Also, post-production has been on-going as they finish filming scenes, and they started filming in October of last year, so I’d be surprised if they needed a full year in addition to all the lead time they have since filming started.
March/April seems perfectly logical to me. They’d better have a damn good reason if it premieres any later. i.e. Wolf pack! 🙂
True, but March is 7 1/2 months away. Kit and Maisie just finished last week. I think previous seasons premiered around 6 months after filming ended and it seems like these final episodes will require more post production time then previous years. I’m sure HBO will have some kind of special ad campaign as well since this is the end of their most popular show ever.
We’ll probably know more by the end of the year. If there is no marketing yet or any info/news by the end of December don’t think a March premiere would be likely. I hope it is spring though and not summer 🙂
SerNoName,
“This is what I am talking about. Maisie can do wonders without even speaking a word. With just her face. The scene with Needle, her scene with Nymeria, when she first gets to WF. When she looks around Sansa’s room and gets jealous. When she sees LF watching her.
I don’t think that Arya and Tyrion have met on the show yet… I can’t wait for Maisie Williams and Peter Dinklage to share a scene. It’s going to be Arya-Tywin redux – beautiful to watch.”
___________________________
Thank you! Your comments brought to mind some fond recollections of scenes from Season 1. (Seems like a lifetime ago, doesn’t it?)
Your second point first: I also don’t think Arya and Tyrion have met yet. In S1e1, as the Stark family was lined up to greet Robert and his entourage, I recall this exchange:
Arya: “Where’s the Imp?”
Sansa: “Will you shut up!”
I think “the Imp” was already busy in a brothel.
Later in the episode, during the feast in WF Great Hall, Tyrion was outside, where he met Jon “Chip in His Shoulders” Snow for the first time and gave him unsolicited advice:
Jon: “You’re Tyrion Lannister, the Queen’s brother.”
Tyrion: “My greatest accomplishment. And you, you’re Ned Stark’s bastard, aren’t you? Did I offend you? Sorry. You are a bastard, though.”
Jon: “Lord Eddard Stark is my father.”
Tyrion: “And Lady Stark is not your mother. Making you – a bastard. Let me give you some advice, bastard. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor and it can never be used to hurt you.”
Jon: “What the hell do you know about being a bastard!”
Tyrion: “All dwarves are bastards in their father’s eyes.”
Meanwhile, inside the hall, mischievous little Arya was spoon-flinging food at Sansa, earning her a prompt “time for bed” early exit.
So Tyrion and Arya wouldn’t have met then either.
I had not even thought about the prospect of “Maisie Williams and Peter Dinklage [sharing] a scene.” And I hope you’re right that “It’s going to be Arya-Tywin redux – beautiful to watch.” If the writers take just a little extra time to craft some snappy dialogue like the characters had in Seasons 1-3, it could be pure gold: The Queen of Insults bantering with the Sultan of Snark.
(Random stream of consciousness thought about one of my favorite Arya quips, from S2):
Gendry: “You know, you shouldn’t insult people that are bigger than you.”
Arya: “Then I wouldn’t get to insult anyone.”
P.S. Hi Che! ⚠️👸🏻🚂🚩
(Arya Thread Derailment Warning)
mau
Where did I say that my opinion was fact I said hers was.
Jack Bauer 24,
Yeah, I think you’re right about post-production taking much longer for S8, even though there are only six episodes.
I would also imagine that even though the actors finished filming a few days ago, it’s possible some of them could be involved in special effects filming later on, eg, like Maisie Williams and her trip to Calgary for the Nymeria scene after principal filming for S7 had already ended.
Finally, I thought I read somewhere that frequently, actors are called back to re-record their dialogue in a sound studio, since on-set filming is full of background noise; and unless the boom microphones are really close to the actors’ faces, it’s difficult to record their voices. (I’ve been told it’s sort of like trying to talk to someone on your cellphone while driving with your car windows open. The person on the other end hears the “swooshing” of the wind over your voice and can’t make out what you’re saying.)*
* Speakerphones are a better example that I decided not to use. It would have resulted in a 20,000 word mega-rant. I hate speakerphones. I refuse to talk to anyone who tries talking to me on one.
Good to see you Bears. All we can do is wait out this final wait one last time all together. Before you know it the final season will premiere and we’ll have one hell of a ride for 6 weeks 🙂
Yay! NCW finally got an Emmy nom!
He won’t win, of course, partly because he’s not American and not well-enough known to the American industry voters. Ho hum, I’m just so happy for him professionally that he got the nom! (Also, commiserations to NCW about Dansk Dynamit in the World Cup 🙁 )
OK, now I have to skim through all the backlog on WotW, having been away sailing for three weeks. The boat has wifi but the use was restricted to important stuff like navigation, weather and football. (The FIFA football Wold Cup was, still is ongoing – football in the sense most of the world except the US, who call it soccer, understand it.)
Stopping home after the first sailing trip, my first thing to do was laundry, then get on to WotW to see what’s been happening!! Soon I’ll read a huge backlog of articles and comments by all you lovely people here! It’s gonna be intense, before I go back to the boat. With clean laundry.
Jack Bauer 24,
As I said, I was counting all of July since they finished filming end of June (wasn’t Maisie done on June 29?), and then considering it might premiere mid-end of March, that’s approximately 9 months. But let’s say 8 as a compromise. 🙂
Typically, previous seasons aired ~4 months after filming ended since they would shoot from July – December, then air in April (season 7 being the exception of course).
I’m hoping we start seeing some initial marketing either by end of summer or in the fall. If not, I would say a spring premiere would look less likely. Here’s hoping!
Enharmony1625,
“March/April seems perfectly logical to me. They’d better have a damn good reason if it premieres any later. i.e. Wolf pack! 🙂”
___________________
They’d better have Nymeria and her massive wolfpack in S8. Otherwise, Arya’s encounter with Nymeria in S7e2 was just a throwaway scene, and a waste of time and money flying Maisie to Calgary. Also, didn’t GRRM himself once say that
I do not want to hear any excuses about the difficulty of making realistic CGI wolf fur. Show the wolfpack in a long-range shot. Insert hundreds of CGI wolves into a scene with a few real ones, like they did with the horses in Battle of the Bastards. Use traditional cinematography perspective tricks. I once saw a movie made over sixty years ago, “The Incredible Shrinking Man” (1957), in which the miniaturized hero using a sewing pin as a lance had to fend off a giant (to him) spider. Those special effects were decent enough. Surely technology has advanced since then to enable special effects departments to make real wolves look twice as large. It doesn’t have to be perfect: I thought the High Sparrow’s immolation by wildfire looked hokey but you didn’t hear me bitching about it.
And I implore the Seven Old Gods and the New Gods beyond counting: PLEASE bring back Ghost 👻,and not just for a five-second cameo.
Without inciting any arguments over whether the show has exceeded viewers’ DSP [Dragons Saturation Point] I’ve loved the dragons scenes – especially those in S6e9 and e10. Yet, I know I’m not alone in questioning the paucity of direwolves scenes. (Example: S6e10 Jon Snow KitN scene, Lord Manderly declares: “He is the White Wolf! The King in the North!” How do they NOT flash to a quick cut of Ghost under the dais next to Jon?) With Wun Wun R.I.P. out of the picture, and HBO about to air the final season of the most popular series in TV history, budgetary choices like in S6e9 (either Giant or Direwolf) should be moot.
⁃ End Unintended Rant –
Jack Bauer 24,
Aaah!!! Good to see you, Jack Bauer 24!
Now, don’t you go getting all anxious about teaser, trailer, red carpet dates. *wags finger*.
I’m one of the regulars who got sooo fed up with your anxiousity before S7 that we nearly thought you were trolling, many of us trolling back a bit, and your frantic commenting became a (mostly benevolent) standing joke here…
But once the season started, your comments and analysis of each episode were very intelligent and incisive. Good to have you here.
Just… could you not worry about dates this time? 😉
Or if you can’t, spare a thought to those of us who don’t stress about teasers, trailers, red carpet dates etc. and find your approach a bit baffling.
Anyway, good to see you commenting again, after a hiatus… Even if your comments seem to be about production timelime stuff. lol.
Haven’t had time to read all stuff, but is WotW comments still a ASNAWP fanboy/fangirl central? 😉
Sigh.
The thing is, I like book!Arya and even show!Arya, the story GRRM and D&D seem to be grafting for her. Arya is, especially in the books, quite murky, grey, testing our ethics. The show has “whitewashed” her a bit, thereby making her a less complex and interesting character.
I used to like Arya, but if she’s only ASNAWP… I think that would be a huge waste of the character. She has potential for so much more.
Ten Bears,
Totally agree! Regardless of whether season 8 premieres in spring or summer, we’d better see Nymeria and Ghost next season. It would be sacrilege to leave them dangling like that.
talvikorppi,
To be fair, the show has “whitewashed” others as well, most notably Tyrion. The books will always be able to go into deeper detail and more fully examine the nuances of the characters than the show is able to. That doesn’t mean that within the context of the show that these characters aren’t interesting or complex. Because they absolutely are!
I’m with you on the ASNAWP thing though — we definitely need to see an exploration of her many other layers next season. How will her relationship with Jon develop given how much they’ve both been through? Or Gendry. What will her perception of Dany be? Or even more interesting, as people were discussing the amazing potential of an Arya/Tyrion scene, what about Arya/Jamie? How will that go given Arya’s friendship with Brienne? And perhaps most crucial of all, will Arya’s deeds become known, and how will that affect others’ perception of her? So much to explore. So while I am 100% on board with Arya kicking some ass next season (we’ve earned it!), that can’t be all we get. We need character moments!
Oh, and on the topic of her kicking ass, I don’t want it to be easy for her either. She should struggle, be challenged, have close calls, get injured, etc.. We don’t need anyone leaping around like Legolas, as someone else put it earlier. 🙂 After all, part of being a badass is overcoming challenges in interesting and/or clever ways that is grounded in reality.
mau,
I didn’t talked about the quality overal, yes HoC declined in season 5. And yes it’s maybe not that close to the real deal. But as the dialogue is written. HoC wins by a large mile imo. It doesn’t rely on action scenes, it doesn’t have that comfort, it rely only on dialogue. And as for dialogue there’s not a bad scene (maybe only comparing it to reality).
And maybe HoC wasn’t that great of an example. Should have put in leftovers, or Sopranos, mr robot, those shows ke(e)ps their quality high.
So maybe we should agree to disagree, but for me GoT is my favorite show but not best in writing. Not including episodes like winds of winter who are just gold, but GoT have for instance the badly written Dorne plot, or the rushing of some scenes/plotlines. And for pacing for instance, they choose to give every character a small scene every episode. Better writing was giving more per episode and less episodes (like season 3 and 4). It has some writing issues because of the scale of the show.
And if that last wasn’t true and GoT writers were the best, why were there some complains about some scenes:
– Rape scene 4×03. LF demise, the timeshift in 7×06. Dorne plot.
If the writing was the best there was, we wouldn’t have those complains. For me GRRM is one of the best writers of the past century, but D&D aren’t.
talvikorppi,
a ASNAWP?
Ten Bears,
While we haven’t seen it, Tyrion and Arya would absolutely have met. The royal party was visiting Winterfell for several weeks; that they didn’t attend the feast at the same time isn’t significant.
Enharmony1625,
Yes. Thank you, Enharmony, for asking all those great questions. I don’t have all the answers, it’s not my fight. Except, it is my, and everbody else’s fight, to combat sneaking fascism.
As Cersei said – then there is nothing left to discuss.
Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess. I coined it as a slightly negative/critical moniker, but our lovely hardcore Arya fans embraced it and ran with it, haha. I don’t mind Arya, I just don’t want her reduced to only cartoonish “badass” ASNAWP.
mau,
Just one question, for you the whole Dorne storyline in season 5 was well written? The pussy-line scene was a well written scene?
Because if D&D are one of the best writers walking on this earth, that storyline, and that scene can’t be bad. I asked this question because it make sense why I think GRRM is amazing and D&D are not, because for me the whole Dorne plot is well written in the books in my opinion (maybe a little boring sometimes), but D&D version for me wasn’t that amazing and felled more like a charlies angels plotline.
I asked because you dismissed my whole argument and only focussed on the D&D remark.
EDIT: ps. I hope you don’t mind asking it, only in for a nice debate. But sometimes I have a feeling that if you say 1 think negative about GoT, writing, acting etc people act like you don’t like the show, even when it’s my favorite out there, I only see some flaws in the show.
Could be a nice spin-off or cartoon. I would watch, as long as it’s not a anime.
kevin1989,
I don’t think that D&D are best writers walking on this earth at all, but I just think that even in his prime with the first 3 books, GRRM was not one of the best writers of the past century.
I’ve seen this argument before. That ASOIAF is so vast so complex and so massive that it takes even a superb writer like GRRM a massive effort to keep it together etc. etc.
However, I think that this is wrong. The story has become a bloated mess of too many POVs and plots because GRRM is not that good a writer. He certainly is a competent writer, he has managed to make a living as one, but not a stellar author.
If GRRM has managed to stick to 8-10 POVs and had been able to plot out his story in advance perhaps we wouldn’t be in this mess. That you allow your story to baloon out of control so badly that you can’t finish it isn’t a sign of a complex story or a great writer. It is the sign of someone who took on more than he could handle.
talvikorppi,
“Haven’t had time to read all stuff, but is WotW comments still a ASNAWP fanboy/fangirl central? 😉”
__________
It hasn’t been, but now that you’re back…
Unleash the ASNAWP barrage!
Enharmony1625,
Forget the face-peeling, the sword fighting, and the throat-slashings. I’m more interested in Arya confronting and reconciling the conflicting feelings she has about Sandor. The show set that up with Arya and Jaqen in S5 – paraphrasing: “I hated him”; “A Girl lies to me, to the Many-Faced God… and to herself”; and in S6 with the Waif and A Girl (“Tell me about The Hound… Didn’t she [Arya Stark] want him dead anymore?; “She did…and she did not”; “She sounds confused”; “Yes. She was”)
kevin1989,
“For me GRRM is one of the best writers of the past century, but D&D aren’t.”
______________
That’s because GRRM takes a century to write. D&D have had to crank out ten scripts a year for seven years on time, and produce and film them under budget within the span of a few months.
And I’d be remiss not to reiterate that when they undertook this massive project, they assumed they’d have source material from GRRM to adapt. They could not fathom that they’d not only pass the books but finish the story before GRRM got around to it.
I’m NOT knocking the guy. But could you imagine the uproar if the showrunners has announced that GoT was going on indefinite hiatus until George finished TWOW?
I didn’t realize they were there that long. In “show” time, the Lannisters arrived in WF in episode 1, and by episode 2 Jon & Tyrion were on their way to the Wall while Arya was on the Kingsroad heading to Sh*ttown… I mean KL.
I guess you’re right. It would’ve been nice to see little Arya meet Tyrion. She was so curious about the whereabouts of “the Imp.” And she’s not the kind of person who’d judge him by his physical stature.
Go ahead. I’ll take the blame. Or the credit. I don’t mind. 😉
I’ll take all the ASNAWP stuff I can get along with equal amounts of the non-SNAW stuff. Basically, Arya in every scene would be ideal. 😀
talvikorppi,
And I meant to add…
Good to see you back! Sailing for three weeks, huh? I hope you had a great time, and were left with wonderful memories.
If Martin was the best writer, why are there so many complaints about AFFC/ADWD? Why is he having so much trouble completing his series?
kevin1989,
If we’re going to compare the writing of GRRM and D&D, we should compare based on mediums. That is, compare D&D’s TV writing with George’s earlier work in TV. Also, both Dan and Dave have written books that are supposed to be quite good and are critically praised. George has read both their books and liked them. Of course, they’re not epic fantasies, but writing in one medium versus the other is so different that it’s unfair to compare the two.
That being said, I wasn’t a big fan of the Dorne storyline either, and I certainly have not agreed with all of their writing decisions. But when all’s said and done, they have done a stellar job of adapting this incredibly complex and vast material that is ASoIaF.
Full agreement here! 🙂
Thanks, TB, nice to be back here for a tiny while, feels like chatting with old friends. Soon off again, with all the clean laundry, sail some more. After the Barents Sea, our home watter in the Baltic is deceptiely easy. No tides, no rips. Plenty of rocks, though, haha.
kevin1989,
I prefer the Dorne version from D&D over the version from GRRM. D&D made some writing and plotting mistakes, but at least it has an ending. GRRM keeps on adding storylines that are not at all important for the plot and I don’t even like the characters.
It won an Emmy.
Jack Bauer 24,
I liked Tyene. I was disappointed Bronn didn’t rescue her and give her the antidote to Cersei’s poison.
Otherwise, what was the point of their flirting? It was the only part of the Dorne detour I really liked.
mau,
You have a point there, but still we need to wait till he finished the next two books until we know how it turns out. Personally I liked book 4 and 5 the most, and the way he did it with the PoV, my problem is more all the other side characters that keeps on comming.
Ten Bears,
True, but still the problem that arised for instance with the dorne plot in the show is not a time restrict problem, it was because they wanted it to be more action-based than the books. George always decide to take a less action-based storyline and more dialogue, and D&D change alot to more action-based. And for instance Dorne, did they have a less action-based dorne story more like the books it would have been received better. Same how they handled Doran’s character, they didn’t know what to do with him so they killed him instead as soon as possible. Look at interviews with Alexander Siddig how D&D are as writers and producers. He even stated don’t work with them unless your a lead star. He even attack the writing part of the show.
Young Dragon,
Funny thing is that those 2 books get the most praise from people that worked in literature. FfC was the only one that got a big award, and is placed the highest when literaturist rank the books. Personally my favorite is DwD and and least CoK.
About ending the books, I think it’s not really the writing part that’s stopping him from writing, I think it’s more personal aspect. Maybe the age, maybe depressed or something.
Enharmony1625,
I never said that they didn’t wrote a stellar work with GoT. As stated before they are one of the best, but not the best. They make mistakes that other showwriters would have avoided. They can write some of the best things we see WoW hardhome etc. But some things they failed big time, Dorne, LF scene 1×07. WF story season 7. etc. Still GoT is my favorite even then.
Chilli,
We don’t know how important it is, I think dorne plot in the books will be more important. Dorne is the one that brings FAegon to westeros and probably take over KL (I think it’s sooner in the books), and they shifted the focus on taking Dany home. And the plan of Doran was amazing in the books, the shift of his character. And personally I liked book Arianne more than the sand snakes in the show.
Season 5 yes, but not that scene if I remember.
That scene in 7×03 was the first time I liked the sandsnakes. No correct myself, and 7×02. That scene in episode 3 was very emotional.
David and Dan won the Writing Emmy from Mother’s Mercy, which that line is from.
Edit: What was wrong with the LF scene in 107?
I like ASOIAF but I never thought of it as a particularly innovatory series – there’s lots of stories with morally complex characters predating it. Maybe it’s just me but although I didn’t hate book Doran I thought he had to be one of the dimmest masterminds in fiction. His long plan for revenge involves the marriage of his daughter but he doesn’t let his daughter in on it till late in the game and the character book Doran wants to marry his daughter to (won’t name the character because…spoilers for people who haven’t read the books) wasn’t a nice person, albeit that marriage doesn’t come off.
Book Ellaria and book sand snakes are much nicer characters than their show counterparts – the book sand snakes were hot-heated but not unnecessarily vicious.
I allow the show runners some leeway because it cannot be easy to “adapt” an unfinished work. I’ve said this before but when I watched season 2 I hadn’t read/listened to the books* and Talisa’s character jarred with me (no disrespect to Oona Chapman whose acting I like) and when I did get round to the books there was no Talisa and Robb’s wife was a different character completely. I found AFFC a bit hard-going – when and if I have time I might try the ‘tandem read’ of AFFC and ADWD as they take place in roundabout the same timeframe and see if I like them better that way. I didn’t HATE AFFC and ADWD and if other people have a different opinion to me on these works that is perfectly okay. GRRM does create characters one can care about – and in some cases change one’s opinion about (Jaime and Theon for example) so I’m not trashing books 4 and 5 of the series.
* At one time the Roy Dotrice readings of the books were on YouTube but they seem to have disappeared – there’s another version of a reading of the books on YouTube now but that isn’t too my taste.
Chilli,
I liked the idea of the eldest child inheriting the leadership of the principality in book Dorne. Arianne (cut from the show) was somewhat manipulative but I liked her speech about “Nymeria’s Star”. I think something is mentioned of the backstory of Dorne and the eldest child inheriting irrespective of gender in the “Histories and Lore” but can’t remember it being directly referenced in the show (though no doubt I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong).
In my previous post I should have said “to my taste” rather than “too”.
Jack Bauer 24,
Mother’s mercy was an excellent episode. And my only problem was the sand snakes there. But still one of my favorite episodes.
Problem with that scene was that LF was telling a story about his fight with Brandon. That story was overshadowed with the moaning of the 2 ladies. For me it was a shame because the story is very important that he told.
Dame of Mercia,
I think i will read the books again sometime and then I read FfC and DwD chronically, I think people will think I’m crazy (which in fact I maybe are he he) for changing books every half hour. I think the story will be better that way. And for me those books had some of my favorite storylines. Sam from FfC many hated it I loved it, same for Brienne, I liked the whole exploring the common people part of it. Cercei’s story I found very interesting with the Kettleblacks (hope I write I right). I didn’t like Dorne the first half, second half I liked it. Same for Iron Island story. Book 5, Theon’s arc was one of the best of the whole series. His chapters were horrific, I remember after reading the first chapter of his I felt somehow sick, but it was very intriguing. Only problem I had with book 5 were the Dany chapters. I liked that story but it felt like he needed to add some chapters because of the book title. We got 11 chapters if I remember correctly, but I think if he shortened it with 3 or 4 chapters that story would have been better.
And I have only one small problem with book 5 is that he waited with the pay-off till the beginning of book 6. I think if he kept his story chronical, put DwD first half in FfC, it’s a small book so that first half would have made the book a little longer than SoS, maybe 100 pages max. That way he could have had the conclusion of DwD in DwD instead of WoW.
Thanks! Good to see you too. With filming over I’ll probably pop in a little more often. I’m going to try and have some restraint this time around about trailers and premiere dates and red carpets 😀
Jack Bauer 24,
15 minutes (tho it seemed lik 15 hours) of sexposition soliliquoy. I scroll by it everytime I rewatch. Total waste of valuable time!
The award was for the total summary of the episode. The fact that that scene happens to be there doesn’t mean it deserved it. (tho I must admit that scene was probably the best one of Dorne, except for Season 7)
BTW if I may ask an off topic question: I am currently reading Circe, which is likely to become one of my favorite books of the year. Did Martin name his queen character after her? Given her jealousy, it makes me wonder, yet otherwise the characters are not similar.
And I totally agree with above that you cannot compare D&D work with Martins and be fair about it. Compare GOT with HOC, and yeah the latter runs circles around it in terms of writing sharp dialogue. Compare ASOIAF with one of my favorite fantasy series Feists Magician: Apprentice, and I can definitely dock points from the former for overly written sections. I also agree that D&D did an amazing job considering that they were left with no material to work with by season 4.
kevin1989,
you don’t need to do that – Boiled Leather was written a few years back for just that purpose. Haven’t read it that way, but perhaps I will once this season ends.
D&D have done some outstanding writing and I think after the final season 8 episode is shown many of the other seasons scenes will be even better. I think season 7 has scenes that forecast season 8 scenes but don’t seem like forecast scenes right now. Someone might have already predicted this happening but if not here’s what I think
Season 8 is going to off the charts… EPIC!!!
kevin1989,
[Re: S1e7]
“Problem with that scene was that LF was telling a story about his fight with Brandon. That story was overshadowed with the moaning of the 2 ladies. For me it was a shame because the story is very important that he told.”
_____________
For me, the problem with that scene was that LF was in it.
Yeah, don’t be a stranger! And don’t worry about restraint. We all have our idiosyncrasies and preoccupations.
On that note… and don’t hate me for saying this because it’s not directed at you… I get all apoplectic when people (mis)use the word “literally” when they really mean the opposite (“figuratively”) or “virtually.”
Also, even journalists who should know better write “…to try and [do something]”, instead of “to try to [do something.]”
– End Grammar Nazi King Stannis Channeling Rant –
They would nine months full post production if the show airs in March – that’s two or three times longer than normal. Also worth noting that one if not the biggest battle of the season finished filming in March so they would have a year to work on that. At this point nobody can say for certain until a teaser drops but I suspect March/April is the very latest air time.
From what I can gather all previous seasons aired 3-4 months after filming finished. Usually within a few weeks after filming we get a teaser and confirmation of timing so we can expect this relatively soon i.e this month or August most likely. I doubt we will see a full until towards the end of this year though.
^ I’m loving this logic, and it sounds right to me. 😉
Season 7 finished filming in December 2016 and premiered exactly one year ago on July 16th 2017. That was 7 months of post production and I’m sure these final 6 episodes will require even more time.
My understanding Jack is that S7 filming finished Feb 2017 and aired in June.
It premiered 7/16/18. Exactly one year ago.
You may be right about when filming ended. February sounds. Not December like I thought. Can’t find an exact date online.
Jack Bauer 24,
Filming on season 7 started on August 31, 2016 and ended in February 2017 (source). That’s roughly 6 months of filming, and it premiered ~5 months after filming ended. Season 8 has been filming for 10 months, and if it premieres in March/April, that’s 8 – 9 months after filming ended. So if it premieres in the spring, that’s still significantly more time than they had for season 7.
don’t get me wrong i love Peter Dinklage and he was the reason to me watch GOT.. but i would this season was his worse i didn’t like it at all and i think kit done a better acting this season then peter
HBO has lost that nice drama rotation and keeping shows on a one year schedule they had going for a while; series, about a week gap, series, gap, series, etc. Still, it appears that 2019 could be a bit full for them.
Westworld will be well over a year before S3 airs. The Deuce will be about one year between seasons, but also would not air S3 until late ’19, if they get a third season. Succession and Room 104 won’t air seasons two until a year from now at earliest.
Big Little Lies season two reportedly won’t air until ’19 as well after season one completed airing at the beginning of March ’17. True Detective S3, and two new ones, Demimonde and Lovecraft Country, are supposedly going to air in ’19. There isn’t a premiere date for any of them yet. Scheduling these four might be a factor in deciding when the final season of GoT airs. That is if they do what they have in the past in not airing (what they think are) their big dramas simultaneously. In my opinion it does look like a nice window for GoT in March/April if they can air one of them early in the year to lead into it. Demimonde being a sci-fi/fantasy might be a good candidate to begin right after GoT completes.
Was watching Sharp Objects last night and the HBO preview that played before the episode showcased upcoming seasons of their shows and it said “new seasons coming soon” for Ballers and Room 104, so I don’t think Room 104 is a year away.
With Big Little Lies I think it was billed as a miniseries then they decided to do a second season, so that’s why there’s a big gap until Season 2.
True Detective was in limbo for a long time and I can see they not airing until 2020. Maybe same year as the GoT prequel/spin off.
What I was implying with Room 104 is that it is set to air this Fall yet so as far as ’19 is concerned the subsequent season won’t be until later in the year (at least a year from now). Succession just finished airing so S2 will most likely be later in ’19 too. Ballers is more on their comedy side but their new season starts airing next month so also won’t be airing another season early in ’19.
True Detective S3 is reported to be airing in ’19.
Ahhh gotcha. So spring or summer for GoT then. Hopefully. Westworld might be early 2020.