Emilia Clarke, Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner at the Game of Thrones season 6 wrap party!

Photo: DaleMc2/Twitter

Photo: DaleMc2/Twitter

Filming on Game of Thrones season 6 is wrapping up soon, but the show sightings are still rolling in. Last night, a few of the series’ stars were out on the town in Belfast, including Emilia Clarke, Maisie Williams, and Sophie Turner.

Clarke herself shared a photo of her co-stars, and we have a group photo posted by a local lucky enough to encounter the actresses yesterday.


SPOILERS beyond this point!

Knowing which performers are in town might give us a clue when it comes to a few puzzles, since there are other Game of Thrones roles due to film around now. Clarke, Williams and Turner are in Belfast currently, and Carice van Houten was on set in early December. Kit Harington was spotted in the area last week as well.

Several casting notices fell into our hands this fall with shooting dates for December, and those character names remain unconfirmed. As of this time, we don’t know which actors are playing them, or which storyline they belong to. We might be able to make some educated guesses based on timing.

To refresh your memory, we have:

Haggard-looking lord:  “the best remaining part this season,” a man in his fifties. He’s the lord of a noble house, described as intelligent, wry, incisive and articulate. He’s “a hard man and a realist.” Game of Thrones is searching for an actor who is “great with language and who has a lot of wattage.” They mention that he has a good and long scene in which it’s mostly the haggard-looking lord talking the entire time.

The character is scheduled to shoot the first two weeks of December in Northern Ireland. They did specify appearance as “white” for the character, so it’s safe to guess he is probably from Westeros, north of Dorne. He was scheduled to shoot the first two weeks of December in Northern Ireland.

Captain of the Tower: Aged 35 – 45. The captain is in charge of the security of a castle. He’s an able soldier, physically fit, commanding and capable. He has a lot of dialogue in a scene where he is with his superiors and has to make a difficult decision.  This is a one-scene part with leading cast. The role shot for one week, beginning December 2nd in Northern Ireland.

“Boyce”:  He’s a callow young nobleman in his 20’s who has been thrust into a position of power before he is ready. They’re looking for an actor using a Northern accent, and one who is physically fit, can play somewhat hot-headed and can look rugged. Our source says the character has a couple speeches in a scene with leading cast. He was expected to shoot for one day, December 16th, in Northern Ireland. These are the last known filming dates for season 6.

We speculate that this role might be the new Lord Cerwyn, since Ramsay flayed the previous one.

“Fletcher”: He’s a fat nobleman in his 60’s. He has distinctive rugged features, a Northern accent, and a distinguished air. Our source says he has a stirring speech during which he unexpectedly shifts political allegiances. The actor is only expected to shoot for one day- the same day as the above role, on December 16th, in Northern Ireland.

We speculated this role might be Wyman Manderly or an equivalent of the character.

There was also a casting call for a brown-eyed baby from Extras N.I. for December 17th. It’s not known if this call is actually for Game of Thrones or not, since the company handles other productions as well as GoT. As of December 8th, they were now searching for a brown/black-haired baby for December filming in Belfast.

With the overlap of the captain and the haggard-lord, it seems possible their storyline is entwined.

“Boyce” and “Fletcher” clearly belong to the same story and scene as they were posted together, and they’re both Northern lords  filming on the same day. With Turner in town, I wonder if perhaps Sansa is meeting with the Northern lords to rally them to the Stark cause.

Update: Looks like the event last night was actually the wrap party! Sometimes the party is held a few days before filming is done. It was held at the Ulster Museum.

Photo booth mayhem!

A photo posted by Kate McLaughlin (@katy_clock) on

#GoT6 Wrap Party was great, and thanks to @sophiet and @maisie_williams for the selfie! #gameofthrones #Belfast

A photo posted by Donavan Gallagher (@dvon316) on

Meeting Liam Cunningham! Such a gentleman!

A photo posted by Sheila (@shughes09) on

231 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. I believe we will have one big meeting- scene with every Northern lord, similar to meeting with the Wildlings in “Hardhome”.

      And it is safe to assume that Sansa will be part of that scene, but where and why, we don’t know yet.

      I think that her story will develop in the way many of us predicted during and after S5.

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    2. Enjoyed your article and good to see the three of them having fun together! And great to see they r still in Belfast for filming! So good to read some GoT news still! Very sad filming is ending this week, but know it means next season is coming soon!

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    3. With both Sophie Turner and Kit Harington there this past week, they might be shooting together. I still think they will meet before the battle.

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    4. FINALLY! D:

      It’s so painful with the lack of news now due to filiming dying down that any info like this is juicy as hell.

      It’s going to be painful waiting for the trailer.

      Also, just pointing it out there, Kit & Sophie filming roughly around the same time with no Aiden in sight? Hmm.

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    5. Tywin of the Hill,

      None whatsoever. Maybe Bronn shoved him overboard between seasons to put the Dornish plot out of its misery.

      In all seriousness, though, there’s been hardly any indication of what’s happening with the Dornish characters this year. It’s probably the most mysterious plot location.

      ghost of winterfell,

      Per another Twitter convo, he was in town on December 11th still, supposedly hanging out with Maisie. If he was at last night’s gathering, there’s no sign of it, but he could have been working. I guess we’ll see.

      I don’t think we’ve ever seen Emilia hanging out with those two before.

      Regarding the haggard-looking lord, given that he’s not noted as “Northern”, which all the other Northern noble castings seem to be, I don’t think he’s from the North (I wasn’t sure about this when the role was first announced, but subsequent to that we had the “Manderly” and “Cerwyn” castings, which also note “Northern”). While we obviously don’t know for sure, I couldn’t think of any particular reason we’d need more Vale or Riverlander lords (in the latter case, Jaime meets a few, notably Tytos Blackwood, but those seem like prime candidates for elision), and if he was from the Iron Islands you would think he’d have been at the Kingsmoot. To me, that narrows it down to King’s Landing (we have only a limited understanding of what’s happening there this season, so no reason not to think they need new courtiers) and Oldtown. On the latter point, I’ve been wondering if the role is Leyton Hightower. There’s been very little known casting for Sam’s story so far other than his family (obviously).

      We know from the books that Hightower is sequestered high in his tower, is rumoured to be interested in magic and secret history, and that he’s a patron of the Citadel. In addition, it’s speculated that Euron will attack Oldtown this year. I can see multiple reasons Sam might meet Lord Hightower, and his season presumably needs some kind of climax. Plus, if the “captain of the tower” character who was filming for part of the same time as this character is in the same scene, the “tower” part of the character description takes on added meaning.

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    6. My guesses:
      – Haggard-looking lord: Rodrick the Reader
      – Captain of the Tower: A Hightower. Probably Baelor
      – “Boyce”: Lord Cerwyn
      – “Fletcher”: Wyman Manderly

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    7. Sean C.:

      I don’t think we’ve ever seen Emilia hanging out with those two before.

      At least one of the pics is from Got S6 wrap party in Ulster Museum, Belfast
      so it’s not like Emilia is voluntarily hanging out with them :p

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    8. The fact that the Haggard-looking lord and the Captain of the Tower are not specified to need a Northern accent makes me pretty sure they aren’t from the North —they been consistent with that so far. My guess is Sam will be privy to some of Oldtown’s politics (maybe the Iron Islanders raid Oldtown?), and these characters would be Lord Hightower and his second in command.

      Sean C.: None whatsoever. Maybe Bronn shoved him overboard between seasons to put the Dornish plot out of its misery.

      In all seriousness, though, there’s been hardly any indication of what’s happening with the Dornish characters this year. It’s probably the most mysterious plot location.

      With no main characters in Dorne, we probably won’t see much of the Martells this season. Hopefully the little we’ll see will be consequential. I’d have assumed we’d see them in King’s Landing (as in the books Doran sends Nym and Tyene there), but… after Myrcella’s death in the show, I doubt it.

      This is what we know: they shot for a few days to a week in the Alcazaba of Almería, which is most likely Sunspear. Unless they also have plenty of indoor scenes, they won’t have much screentime.

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    9. ghost of winterfell,

      I really hope we get to see Jon and Sansa together.

      After watching how wonderfully Sophie Turner portrayed both Sansa’s reaction to being told that Jon was Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch and the revelation that Bran and Rickon might be alive, I really want to see Sansa’s reaction to seeing Jon.

      It’d be especially interesting to see how they react to one another since they haven’t actually shared any interaction in 5 whole seasons.

      I’m hoping it emulates the massive hug that Arya gave Jon before he left for the Night’s Watch. I think after all Sansa’s been through, and considering Jon has been helpless to protect Ned, Robb and the rest of his siblings, they’d both be pretty delighted to finally be reunited with family.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if the producers decided to make it a more muted reunion though, with Jon in particular appearing preoccupied with resurrection, Wildlings, invading White Walkers and so on.

      But I’m holding out hope for a meeting of eyes, a big old hug and a few tears. It’s what we’ve been waiting for since Ned got thrown in the Black Cells all those years ago!

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    10. Luka Nieto,

      The end of last season really flummoxed me in terms of where these characters go next.

      We didn’t see any sign of this during filming, but I wonder if Doran sends one or more of them to Meereen to look for Dany (though given that the Snakes murdered Myrcella, that would pose some difficulties when they find Tyrion there).

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    11. Sean C.,

      That’s a very good guess. We don’t much about what will happen in Oldtown, other than Sam talking with a maester.
      The ironborn have to attack this season, and the Shields island are too minor of a location to be the scene of a climatic battle.
      Then you have the Lord and the Captain of the tower both shooting at the same time, and from the casting descriptions it seems there’s some kind of emergency at the tower, which in GoT world mostly means an assault.

      We have already 4 Northern Lords confirmed, adding another one instead of giving time to establishing the important ones seems unnecessary.

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    12. Sean C.: The end of last season really flummoxed me in terms of where these characters go next.

      So was I. Being a book reader was a problem for me in the climax for Dorne in season five —you know exactly what I was expecting. In the books that plotline was presented as a storyline of its own, while in the show it’s introduced as part of Jaime’s story. As far as most of the audience is concerned, we’re probably about done with Dorne. They had their climax with Myrcella’s death; who would ever suspect Doran has more up his sleeve?

      I’ll take that into account with the Iron Islands. If, sadly, Euron is as anti-climactic in the show as he’s in the books (big introduction, yet barely any presence or payoff for two books), I’ll try to look at the Iron Islands storyline while taking into condideration that it’s probably going to be written in a way that mainly advances Theon’s story —not Yara’s, Euron’s or anybody else’s.

      mau,

      That is true. I completely forgot. I wonder how that will be the case. Dorne had about half an hour of screentime in season five, if I’m not mistaken. It doesn’t seem like a lot, but without Jaime there and a specific plot we know about (Myrcella’s rescue), it’s difficult to imagine what could fill that screentime. I mean, yeah, there’s Doran’s revelations at the end of AFFC and ADWD, but what form will that take in the show, if any? And will we see any payoff to it?

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    13. While I’m so sad that we’re not going to be getting many more filming updates, I’m extra excited for the beginning of the promotional campaign in a few months. Hopefully a few tidbits will be sprinkled throughout to whet appetites!

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    14. Luka Nieto,

      One thing I wasn’t clear on from that comment, does that mean the totality of the time devoted to the Dornish plot, or does it mean the screentime of the Dornish actors, minus the Jaime/Bronn scenes?

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    15. Sean C.,

      I assume it means everything that actually takes place in Dorne —that is, every Dorne-related scene from episode four onwards, plus that scene with Ellaria and Doran in episode two. Most of the Dornish storyline in season five actually takes place in Dorne, except for Cersei’s scene with the necklace, the Stokeworth scene and the boat scene near Tarth. If the comment was meant to refer to the Dornish characters more than to the location, you’d also have to exclude Jaime’s and Bronn’s few scenes traveling in Dorne, and the two scenes between Myrcella and Jaime in the ninth and tenth episodes. Anyway, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t meant to be such a specific claim —just that Dorne will generally have about the same screentime. Anything from twenty to forty minutes of screentime fits within that claim.

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    16. Luka Nieto,

      Alexander Siddik did an inteview where he said that he actually has the same amount of screentime. Areo’s actor also said he doesn’t have much screentime. So unless they’re giving huge amount of screentime to the SandSakes (unlikely), we’re probably getting 10-15 minutes in Dorne.

      .

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    17. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      ghost of winterfell,

      I’m hoping it emulates the massive hug that Arya gave Jon before he left for the Night’s Watch.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if the producers decided to make it a more muted reunion though, with Jon in particular appearing preoccupied with resurrection, Wildlings, invading White Walkers and so on.

      Emulates it? Why? Jon and Arya have always been close to one another and it was demonstrated in the books and in that one scene in the show. Jon and Sansa definitely not in the books and in the show they never share a scene really. So, I hope that's not the case here and may I ask you if you want them together. I get the impression that you want, because many people can see them together in a romantic way. I may be mistaken.

      I would prefer Sansa to be on her own and be finally a strong player. Not secondary to someone else and in this case to Jon. On the other hand Stark reunion would be nice. So I’m torn here. I’m more looking towards Jon and Arya, because their bond as siblings is much stronger.

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    18. Luka Nieto,
      On the payoff… I continue to think that Dorne was introduced because they will play a role as Cersei’s antagonist at one point. Thought this would be this season, apparently it won’t, so I’m thinking the next.

      I simply think that, together with Euron, they will be what Season 7 will spend time on in the South. We need one final war there. There being Three Queens or not.

      Would be cool if Nym or Tyene met Sam, though.

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    19. KrakenDaughter,

      The Sand Snakes would be the most obvious candidates to leave Dorne, which would pretty much have to be the case for there to be any real story involving the Dornish characters.

      Bran in seasons 3-4 had about that much screentime, so there’s certainly precedent for plots around that size.

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    20. Geralt of Rivia,
      I know why I’d like Jon and Sansa to meet warmly. Not for any eventual romantic reason (since I hope that revenant Jon will be asexual), but because this would demonstrate character growth. As in, those child quarrels had been child quarrels; now they are adults; adults from the same family.

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    21. They mention that he has a good and long scene in which it’s mostly the haggard-looking lord talking the entire time.

      Danger, David and David, Danger! Audience retention levels approaching dangerous lows!

      Seriously, I hope that they pull this off properly: this usually is death on screen.

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    22. KrakenDaughter,

      If it wasn’t for Siddig. I would be glad with small amount of screen time for Dorne. He’s such a great actor and Doran was the reason why I liked Dorne in the books. Him and little bit of Arianne. I wouldn’t mind her in the show. Beautiful ladies are always awesome.

      Given that other storylines are more important, involves key players and new ones will be introduced. It’s understandable, but if Daeny lands in Dorne. Their storyline and of course screen time devoted to them could be far better.

      Yaga,

      They’ve been through a lot. If they meet it at CB or elsewhere with no LF involved and plotting around, it will be a warm welcome or in general happy meeting. Not exactly hugs and tears. They could do with a family face. I can’t imagine them being hostile to one another and there is no other choice here.

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    23. Sean C.,

      I think that next season must give us an answer what purpose Dorne serves in this story.

      To be honest, the same applies to Iron Islands, Bravos, Bran, Rickon, Faith Militant,… Meereen? Sansa? I hope that Sansa can contribute to this story more than just killing LF.

      So many questions, but I believe that 30 hours will be enough to give answers to all of them.

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    24. Luka Nieto: Anyway, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t meant to be such a specific claim —just that Dorne will generally have about the same screentime. Anything from twenty to forty minutes of screentime fits within that claim.

      Ah, but here is the part on which I am stumped: who’s storyline is set in Dorne this year? I really doubt that they will be elevating any of the existing non-lead characters to lead characters. So, that just leaves us with the existing ones.

      Otherwise, I would not be surprised if Dorne really has a bunch of “third party” scenes feeding things happening elsewhere. If you take away the Jaime & Bronn scenes, that is all Dorne was last year: so, think along those lines.

      Geralt of Rivia: I would prefer Sansa to be on her own and be finally a strong player. Not secondary to someone else and in this case to Jon. On the other hand Stark reunion would be nice. So I’m torn here. I’m more looking towards Jon and Arya, because their bond as siblings is much stronger.

      The other thing is that it is that the series is drawing to a close: and it is time for storlines to start coalescing.

      I can see Jon and Sansa working in tandem in storylines, as it is very possible that Jon himself has caused Sansa major problems for Season 6. If Sansa learning about Rickon last year is a setup for her working to restore Rickon, then she obviously would want to start organizing some movement around Rickon against the Boltons. Assuming that MB&W continue to follow real history as a guide, the single worst thing that could happen to such a movement is having a common enemy to everyone turn up: and Jon quite literally as well as figuratively just let all the barbarians in the gate.

      So, this would leave Sansa with several challenges this year. One would be getting a clue where Rickon was. However, that is a “physical” challenge, not a character challenge. The character challenge would be that if Westeros is like the real world, then Sansa would have to struggle to remind peopld that “Restore Rickon” is as important as “Repel the Wildlings.” Moreover, if word gets out that it was her father’s bastard son who let the Wildlings into Westeros (and we can bet that the Wall Nationalists will make that as well-known as they can), then Sansa’s house will have taken another black-eye. (Remember, this is a society where the sins of one sibling are considered sins of another.) And, of course, Sansa now has two ex-husbands from houses less than 100% popular with other northerners.

      So, even if Sansa shares a lot of scenes with Jon, then she is still going to have to do things on her own (and powerfully) because of Jon. In other words, she almost has to step it up yet another notch this year.

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    25. Masterofthrones,

      No sightings of Michelle Fairley or rumors about her on set.

      That means LSH won’t be part of S6 for sure, because one way or another we knew about every actor every season.

      We knew even about Drogo in S2 or Yara in S3 and they had only one scene.

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    26. Wimsey,

      What, long dialogue scenes? It’s not like those are new to the show.

      Or if you mean that it’s a guest character, TV dramas have been giving major parts to guest characters since the medium started. One of the climactic moments in the final episode of Mad Men is a lengthy monologue from a character we’ve never seen before, and Don’s reaction. One Star Trek: TNG‘s most acclaimed episodes revolves entirely around guest characters interacting mainly with other guest characters. The only reason it would ever be “death on screen” is if you don’t write the character compellingly.

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    27. Wimsey: Ah, but here is the part on which I am stumped: who’s storyline is set in Dorne this year?

      Daenerys’s I think. We got rumors about Varys in Dorne this year. Maybe Dany won’t be physically in Dorne in S6, but scenes there will be connected to her, IMO.

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    28. mau: I hope that Sansa can contribute to this story more than just killing LF.

      My bet is that Sansa, will be trying to convince people that they should not dismiss her out of hand because of prior beliefs or past actions. We know that Daeny will be doing this. And what evidence we have suggests that Jon and Tyrion will be doing this, too: and we can easily envision how Arya’s and Bran’s actions will feed the same storyline. (Bran in particular: “Hi, I’m Bran Stark. No, really, I’m not a voice in your head: I’m talking to you from that tree. Wait! Seriously! Don’t leave me! I’m literally rooted here!!!!”)

      That gives is a really big hint as to what Season 6’s (and probably Winter’s) story is. And, of course, Sansa probably will have to make some major personal compromises in order to do that. Killing LF would be largely irrelevant to any of that: sparing LF in order to try to use him for later events might, however, feed into that well.

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    29. Wimsey: Killing LF would be largely irrelevant to any of that: sparing LF in order to try to use him for later events might, however, feed into that well.

      Yes, but for me death of LF will be climax of their relationship. I’m interested in Sansa’s story after LF. What is her endgame? We don’t know that yet.

      If the Wall really falls at the end of S6, as some expect, I think it is possible that LF will die this season. I can’t see him alive in the North during WW invasion.

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    30. Sean C.: What, long dialogue scenes? It’s not like those are new to the show.

      Long monologues certainly are new to the show. Even prolonged one-sided conversations are not common on the show. We’ve had a couple of prolonged conversations: but at least one of those included a voice-over on other scenes (the one culminating in the “Chaos is a ladder soliloquy). The Robert-Cersei dialogue was pretty long (for TV), but actually pretty well balanced between two major characters and unusually well-done. The Tyrion-Oberyn dialogue is the other example of which I can think: but, again, there were two major characters (including one lead) involved.

      mau: Daenerys’s I think. We got rumors about Varys in Dorne this year. Maybe Dany won’t be physically in Dorne in S6, but scenes there will be connected to her, IMO.

      If so, then Dorne will be just snippet “supporting” shots. There has to be a protagonist physically present to justify more than that. And the show never has devoted much time to a location without a major character being there. So, unless they are elevating a Dornish character the way that they elevated Stannis last year, there might not be many Dornish minutes this season.

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    31. Wimsey:

      If so, then Dorne will be just snippet “supporting” shots.There has to be a protagonist physically present to justify more than that.And the show never has devoted much time to a location without a major character being there.So, unless they are elevating a Dornish character the way that they elevated Stannis last year, there might not be many Dornish minutes this season.

      I don’t know yet, but there are rumors about Varys in Dorne. Even Olenna. So Dorne could also be connected to the politics of KL in some capacity.

      So they will have supporting role in Cersei’s and Dany’s storyline?

      It will be interesting, I’m sure.

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    32. mau: Yes, but for me death of LF will be climax of their relationship. I’m interested in Sansa’s story after LF. What is her endgame? We don’t know that yet.

      “Know?” True! However, I, for one “strongly suspect”: Sansa’s end-game is the restoration of Rickon, and becoming the éminence gris for House Stark!

      mau: If the Wall really falls at the end of S6, as some expect, I think it is possible that LF will die this season. I can’t see him alive in the North during WW invasion.

      Ah, do you subscribe to the old idea that LF is actually an agent of the Walkers? That certainly had its advocates 15 years ago: and I was one of them! However, I think that the books and show have failed to build the necessary bridges. So, at this point, I think that these are completely unrelated. Littlefinger will continue his scheming. Like most people, he probably will not take seriously claims that White Walkers have returned – that would be like you or me taking seriously claims that an leprechaun army is trying to retake Ireland – and he might present challenges to the main characters by trying to take advantage of the ensuing chaos (he’s an advocate of that) as the realm both reacts to their invasion and the side effects of their initial denial of what is happening.

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    33. mau,

      I think his reaction to the WW would be fairly interesting, precisely since it’s so outside his normal worldview (the case for basically everybody not in the NW or Bran’s stories, of course).

      I’d previously been wondering about whether this would be his last season; it’s of course possible. But we don’t really know how much filming he’s been doing, so I can’t make any real predictions there; if he’s only showing up in the North toward the end (which seems possible), I can’t imagine that this is his last season.

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    34. Geralt of Rivia,

      Like Yaga said in reply to you, it’d demonstrate how their experiences had altered their perspectives and how their characters had progressed.

      The two of them embracing in the same way Arya and Jon had done would highlight the change and provide a stark (no pun intended) contrast to the complete distance that has been shown between them throughout the rest of the show, to the extent that they haven’t even shared a conversation in 5 seasons.

      Their first proper interaction being one of tender joy and familial closeness would be an interesting irony.

      And I’m not just focusing on Sansa here. At the end of Season 5 Jon has been left completely on his own. Sam departing has left him completely isolated. He’s as much in need of support and family as Sansa is.

      I don’t think Sansa needs to stand alone as a character, and I don’t see where her story would go if she did. Even Cersei, Catelyn and Margaery have played second fiddle or been surrounded by equal and supporting characters. I don’t think it has to detract from a character or their progression. And as the show draws closer to the end, we are likely to see character/story arcs becoming more entwined. I think Sansa and Jon’s stories crossing paths would be a good next step.

      I still want to see Arya and Jon have a reunion too. Arya’s scene with Needle in Season 5 was one of the most emotional in the entire show. But personally, I think that that might be the reunion that won’t actually happen. Or if it does, it’ll be in bittersweet circumstances right towards the end of the show.

      In the meantime, I’ll settle for an emotional reunion between Jon and Sansa.

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    35. Sean C.:
      mau,

      I think his reaction to the WW would be fairly interesting, precisely since it’s so outside his normal worldview (the case for basically everybody not in the NW or Bran’s stories, of course).

      And that is the reason I can’t imagine him in the North in S7 if the Wall falls in S6E10.

      Maybe I’m wrong, maybe for some reason Sansa and LF will play a part in the politics of the Riverlands in S7, but why would Sansa leave the North after Bolton’s demise? She would be in her home, with her brothers, safe.

      Maybe, Blackfish, after his escape from the Riverrun, will go to the North and ask Sansa and Rickon for help against Freys. That is the only reason I can think of.

      Well, some army must defeat the Freys. Arya alone can’t do that.

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    36. Sean C.,
      I hope part of next season will be Littlefinger arranging the defense of the North against the Walkers. Proving himself to be actually a good quartermaster. Grain-rationing and whatnot.

      *Then* Sansa should kill him.

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    37. Wimsey: So, unless they are elevating a Dornish character the way that they elevated Stannis last year, there might not be many Dornish minutes this season.

      Ellaria was elevated to the main cast last season, after all, so that may happen.

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    38. mau:
      And that is the reason I can’t imagine him in the North in S7 if the Wall falls in S6E10.

      But the realm reacting to the WW is the endgame of the whole story. To me it’s counterintuitive to state that Littlefinger can’t be involved with that plot because he hasn’t had any involvement with it to date; that’s true of everybody outside of a handful of characters.

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    39. Sean C.,

      It’s true, but when I think of Lf’s death, I think of that as a result of some kind of political game with Sansa. I just can’t see his reaction to WW as an important part of his and Sansa’s relationship.

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    40. mau,

      I expect it will come down to him and Sansa too, but I don’t think that precludes him being involved with the WW. It’s equally possible that his death cleanly demarcates Sansa’s arc in terms of being involved with normal politics versus the WW. Like I said, insufficient information to make that call at this point. I just know that if LF’s a relative latecomer to the North this year, I can’t imagine this is the end of his story.

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    41. It may be futile to really try and estimate the Dornish presence in season 6.

      We’ve got a couple reports that say Dorne gets “about the same amount of time” and a little bit of location shooting that could be Sunspear but doesn’t quite seem like it could be about the same amount of shooting as was in season 5. We also know that, in the book, at least, Doran has a job/journey for every Martell/Sand who is old enough.

      As Wimsey is saying, most of the Dornish presence could be as secondary characters in other plots and locations; does that count as Dornish screen time? A tiny handful of scenes where Doran pulls strings from Sunspear could inform a much larger Dornish presence, politically, and we’d really have no idea.

      I’ve really enjoyed the spoilers for this season, exactly for this kind of vagueness. Sure, we know the larger shape of the plot because of some big, outdoor set pieces and casting schedule puzzles, but so much of the story happens in letters and council chambers; we’ve gotten less information than the trailers will eventually cough out.

      For all we know, there could be a major scene where Sam and the Hightowers hear the entire Martell plan from Sarella while hanging out on the observation deck of the Tower. Very unlikely, I know (mostly because of a lack of anything resembling a Sarella casting), but the point is just that there’s still a ton that we don’t know that is going to stay a secret because it was filmed indoors.

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    42. Ok i might have a heart attack in this wait for season 6, seriously I’ve never been this much excited for an upcoming season of the show it’s just impossible to put it into words, of course sansa’s reunion with jon and her storyline as a whole is the most important part of the season for me as she and jon after her are my ultimate favorites, if sansa’s arc plays out the way i imagined it i’m due for an happiness overdose after season ends.

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    43. Just remember that in the initial seasons, the show had nothing against the odd scene of Balon and Yara receiving Theon’s… ahem. It’s possible we will get some equally small scenes of Dorne sprinkled here or there.

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    44. mau,
      So, exactly. A scene or two just with Doran and the ladies is entirely possible.

      I just hope this will have a payoff is S7. Same goes for Euron. And although we already suspect no Braavos, Meereen, the Boltons and the Wall after this season, Arya, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa and Jon will have to be doing something – so where will the show find the time? (Please kill off the Tyrells and make Dorne Cersei’s primary antagonists, please kill off the Tyrells…)

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    45. jon and sansa were nver close each other sansa pretty much ignore jon all his childhood and jon didn’t even say goodbye to her before going to the wall she was a soft version of lady catelyn

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    46. lord of blogfell,

      And?

      That they were distant as kids doesn’t mean they can’t get along as adults, given all the crap they’ve been through. The desire to reunite with family has been part of all the Stark kids’ stories since AGOT.

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    47. In the books, Sansa “softens” in reminiscences of Jon as well.

      A Feast for Crows – Alayne II

      “Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose.”
      She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.

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    48. mau,
      I’m just not that interested in Cersei and Marge fighting over Tommen, I guess? I want Tommen and Marge dead, and Cersei Triumphatrix Domina Optima as the Mad Queen, First of Her Name, ruling sole and uncontested in King’s Landing for one season finale.

      It’s the same principle by which I want Littlefinger to get everything *he* wants for one season finale: Winterfell, with Sansa by his side. For one season finale.

      What can I say? :shrug: I like the trope of the villain who at one point gets everything they want. To an unhealthy extent, I agree.

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    49. Sean C.,

      I could see them sending Varys to Dorne, to negotiate in behalf of Dany. Seeing that Diana Rigg was in Almeria at the same time as Conleth Hill, I could also see a Tyrell/Martell alliance being established against Cersei. Can’t wait to see the purist rage when the show ignores their rivalry.

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    50. mitch,

      God i’m so glad that D&D put the whole vale subplot behind them quickly enough, and many book readers would disagree but when it comes to sansa show is just superior in compare to the books, also there is the fact that i can’t imagine sansa without sophie so i guess it’s just normal for me to think like that.

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    51. The thing i cant understand is how jon wants to convince northern lords to support him because u know for us fans he is jon stark(or targaryen)but for them he is a zombie bastard who left his brothers in NW(like a whitewalker with brown eyes?)

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    52. Luka Nieto: Ellaria was elevated to the main cast last season, after all, so that may happen.

      Sorry, I meant in terms of the story: she was still a supporting character.

      Sean C.: But the realm reacting to the WW is the endgame of the whole story.

      Well, it’s part of the Endgame. The real Endgame is what Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya & Bran (and maybe Sansa) do when caught betwixt and between whatever deep moral dilemma(s) the “truth” about the White Walkers, R’hllor, the past, etc. creates for them as individuals and/or collectively. The reaction of the realm will be part of that: but to set the stage for the dilemmas, not as a conclusion in and of itself.

      In a lot of ways, the Walkers return will probably be comparable to Voldemort’s return in the Harry Potter series, which itself is a very common part of over-arching stories involving evolving “leaders”: having one or more lead characters suffer greatly while trying to get other people to accept an inconvenient truth that those people would like to dismiss as fantasy. However, you almost have to have something like this in any sort of “rising leader” arc: if people simply welcome the rising leader from the start, then how do you get any story from that?

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    53. 486595″>Daughter of Winter,

      I agree. Trere is too many storylines even now. Without the Vale we have oportunity for epic scenes with Sansa and Rickon, Jon, Northern lords,… Scenes where the actual plot is.

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    54. Danial: The thing i cant understand is how jon wants to convince northern lords to support him because u know for us fans he is jon stark(or targaryen)but for them he is a zombie bastard who left his brothers in NW(like a whitewalker with brown eyes)

      Well, Jon will not be a “Zombie” to them: none of them will believe that he actually died. Heck, Jon might not accept that. What they will think is that, somehow, someway, Jon survived his execution and got away after betraying the Watch and the Realm to the Wildlings.

      However, I agree with you completely: Jon will have one hell of a tough time convincing Northerners to not kill him after what he has done. This should strongly parallel what Daeny has to go through with the Dothraki.

      Arianne Martell: Show sansa sucks, I would literally watch any other character (with the exception of sand snakes)

      Show!Sansa is a huge improvement on Book!Sansa: Book!Sansa is just medieval Barbie lacking anything resembling sentience, never mind any sort of development as a real character.

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    55. Wimsey:
      However, I agree with you completely: Jon will have one hell of a tough time convincing Northerners to not kill him after what he has done.This should strongly parallel what Daeny has to go through with the Dothraki.

      No, not really. He will manage to convince people just like in Hardhome with his argument or just like Tormund vouch for him there. Might be some combination of it. If Sansa is with him it might parallel that even more. Depends if they meet or not. Some will follow and others not so much. They will likely do Daeny and Dothraki over the course of couple of episodes as we heard about the spoilers. With Jon probably not. They will probably speed up things like with one big meeting just like mau said here, where we should hear Manderly’s speech or version of it. Simplify it and not wasting time on that.

      For Daeny it will about to reconnect with Dothraki, convince them and then became Khal of Khals.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Jon and Sansa meeting and other things could happen. Stark reunion is something many fans wants. Arya and Jon relationship is special and unique and should stay this way. Obviously they should be happy to see each other, but it just lacks emotional build up like with Arya in the books. I agree that Jon and Arya relationship will be bittersweet or should I say bitter. It won’t end good for them. Arya constantly thinks about Jon and Jon about her. He basically is willing to go to war over her and not Sansa. Since I doubt or at least hoping they won’t do that in the show too. Would prefer Sansa with LF and to finally take him down. Took control over Vale.

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    56. mau,

      Exactly, i’m really unable to fathom some of the things about book sansa, it’s weird to say this but somehow they feel really out of character.

      Also the word epic fails to point out the greatness of those scenes.

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    57. Sophie Turner is so beautiful. Could go lighter on make-up (all three could), but still, so beautiful.

      Geralt of Rivia: and may I ask you if you want them together. I get the impression that you want, because many people can see them together in a romantic way.

      Really? There are people thinking of that as a real option??

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    58. Daughter of Winter,

      While I appreciate her show version more, book Sansa definitely had developped as a character. I recommend reading her WOW sample chapte, you clearly see where the inspiration for the changes came from.
      I really don’t see how any Sansa fans can be mad at the show, when it’s GRRM who ignored her for 2 books.

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    59. mau:
      Sean C.,

      I think that next season must give us an answer what purpose Dorne serves in this story.

      To be honest, the same applies to Iron Islands, Bravos, Bran, Rickon, Faith Militant,…

      Precisely. It’s now or never for all of them. After season 6 it will be pointless giving them an important weight in the series if they don’t build on that now.

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    60. It is a little hard to convince them,with robbs will about jon is nowhere to be found and sansa with the knowledge of rickon and bran being alive,and jon has no tormund among northerns to vouch for him,because jon saved tormund and he sees whitewalkers with his own eyes,but the only thing northern lords see is a bastard who wants them to join him for another war!

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    61. Daughter of Winter: Well you took this way further than me Wimsey, nonetheless i appreciate that you can see the obvious.

      heh, sure a hand grenade would have worked: but why not just use a howitzer and make certain?

      😀

      Geralt of Rivia: No, not really. He will manage to convince people just like in Hardhome with his argument or just like Tormund vouch for him there.

      Tormund’s word counts for less than nothing with the Westerosi:: he is a Wildling savage and the enemy of the Realm, and particularly an enemy of the North. The fact that Jon is with Tormund will be major points against Jon. Moreover, remember that Jon was not 100% successful at Hardhome with an audience that knows that White Walkers and their Wights are real: the hatred that some of the Wildlings bear the Westerosi in general and the Watch in particular was so great that they could not see past that to a common cause.

      Melissandre’s words would count for as little as Tormund’s. She is a religious fanatic following some strange foreign god that means nothing (or less) to the Westerosi. By “less,” I mean that Mel might follow her usual tactics by proclaiming their gods to be either false or agents of the enemy. If she does that, then they will assume that she’s simply a habitual liar or deluded. (Another universal human trait is to quickly consider clergy from other religions to be liars or deluded.)

      In both cases, you’ll have someone with zero credibility trying to convince them that Jon has done the impossible: come back from the dead. Perhaps the Westerosi will consider it possible that Tormund (uncultured savage that a Wildings like him is) and or Mel (deluded religious fanatic that she is) actually believe that Jon came back from the dead: but at best they will convince them that he/she is honest and wrong, not honest and correct. As Ned Stark said, a mad man sees what a mad man sees.

      Daeny will face something similar. Remember, she is a widow of a Khal: and being a widow of a Khal carries a lifetime sentence in Vaes Dothrak. Moreover, she is a woman: and the Dothraki consider it dishonorable to follow women. So, like Jon, she has a major sentence passed on her AND it will go against the honor code of people that she needs to follow her to do so. And Daeny will be forced to do things that she would rather not do in order to change the rules, just as Jon will. And that is what will create the story for Season 6 (and probably the Winter novel): at this point, I am betting that it is going to be a story about the moral compromises necessary to create followers from people who do not want to heed you.

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    62. Sou,

      Though beauty is something entirely based on everyone’s taste she’s the ultimate beauty for me and she doesn’t need make up.

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    63. KrakenDaughter: I really don’t see how any Sansa fans can be mad at the show, when it’s GRRM who ignored her for 2 books.

      In a way, GRRM ignored Sansa for much longer than that! In GRRM’s original outline for the series, Sansa was not one of the major protagonists: those were Jon, Daeny, Bran, Tyrion and Arya. He seems to have changed his mind after that (although possibly not!): but as a result, he did not seem to have as clear of a character arc in mind for Sansa. The result was that whereas the “Big Five” all evolved hugely over the course of four stories, Sansa barely evolved at all. There were some hints of evolution in her three Crows chapters: but nothing had come of it by the end of Dragons.

      Now, Sansa’s one Winter chapter does suggest a near metamorphosis between Crows and Winter. And it does layout what will probably be her arc on Winter:

      trying to reclaim Winterfell and proclaiming herself The Stark.

      My bet is that we’ve already gotten the big clue as to what this will involve (at it’s core) for Sansa: winning over the skeptical at some great cost. And I think that we’ve gotten a definite taste for what she might expect from a certain fairly slimy young Vale Lord! However, the plot probably might be much different.

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    64. Wimsey:
      Show!Sansa is a huge improvement on Book!Sansa: Book!Sansa is just medieval Barbie lacking anything resembling sentience, never mind any sort of development as a real character.

      Book Sansa is the farthest thing from “medieval Barbie”; she is notably more intelligent than the show version (despite being two years younger), and has had far more characterization and character development, especially in King’s Landing. Sophie is pretty much the only thing the show version has to recommend (and it’s a very good recommendation, mind you, but she can’t make up for the many terrible writing choices).

      Wimsey:
      The result was that whereas the “Big Five” all evolved hugely over the course of four stories, Sansa barely evolved at all.

      That’s simply not true. She’s had pretty dramatic changes in every book, and her worldview at the end of ASOS is enormously different from when she started. If all you get from her chapters is “medieval Barbie”, you aren’t paying much attention to the details of how and what she learns, as well as how she affects others. Her story is a major expression of many of the key themes of GRRM’s work, particularly the chivalric stuff (also seen in characters like Jaime and Brienne, and the stories about Duncan the Tall).

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    65. Sean C.:

      One Star Trek: TNG‘s most acclaimed episodes revolves entirely around guest characters interacting mainly with other guest characters.The only reason it would ever be “death on screen” is if you don’t write the character compellingly.

      Now I’m curious: what episode is that? Lower Decks would be my guess, though there are several other episodes that also rely heavily on the guest cast.

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    66. Wimsey: Show!Sansa is a huge improvement on Book!Sansa: Book!Sansa is just medieval Barbie lacking anything resembling sentience, never mind any sort of development as a real character.

      meh, meh, meh…Have faith, W! Sansa is a contrast to the other, more overt characters. She is a slow burn, a respectable challenge for the author…possibly used to perceive a variety of bizarre, violent characters from a unique, manipulated PoV. I believe GRRM covets her and her ultimate destiny may be the most bittersweet of all.

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    67. KrakenDaughter,

      Exactly, one of the questions i always ask myself is that which group is worse? her haters or her fans who fails to appreciate how excellent her depiction is in the show?

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    68. Sean C.: she is notably more intelligent than the show version

      Are we reading different books? Sansa’s mindset in the books is (understandably, but still) that of a child. She’s portrayed as much more intelligent in the show! However, I agree she was sidelined for a portion of her King’s Landing storyline, in particular season 3, compared to the books. Probably wouldn’t have been as noticeable if not for the ASOS split into one and a half seasons.

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    69. Hodors Bastard: I believe GRRM covets her and her ultimate destiny may be the most bittersweet of all.

      I tend to agree with you. Also, it basically is a truism that when you have many protagonists, one of them is going to get less development (static or dynamic) than the others. So, somebody has to come in last: and in this case, it clearly is Sansa.

      However (and as we have discussed before, I think!), I think that GRRM “discovered” her long after he got the main story rolling. Trying to wedge an arc for her onto the arcs already in his head for the Big Five probably contributed to her delayed evolution. Still, I do sometimes wonder what would have happened if GRRM had cut some of the new protagonists from Crows and added 3-4 more Sansa chapters (showing us the woman born from the ashes of the girl) and another couple of Arya chapters. But as Whittier wrote: “Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are….”

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    70. Luka Nieto:
      Are we reading different books? Sansa’s mindset in the books is (understandably, but still) that of a child. She’s portrayed as much more intelligent in the show!

      When? The decisions she made in season 5 were far worse than anything the book version has ever done, and even setting that aside, the show version was consistently less intelligent in King’s Landing. That reached its apex in Season 3, of course, which reduced her to a series of jokes about how dumb she was (completely missing the way Martin showed her evolving perceptions in those early chapters), but the show cut away pretty all of her actual learning and accomplishments there. There is maybe one instance where you could argue she was more intelligent (episode 408), though that also substantially hinged on the show making Baelish dumber and simplifying the scenario (and it doesn’t really hold up, when you think about it).

      Gravemaster,

      Since Kit was known to be in town quite recently (he may still be), one could speculate he was involved in that filming too.

      Morgan,

      I’d been wondering about Liam.

      Since the meeting with Manderly was a Davos story in the book, he’s also a candidate to at least be present whenever the Northern lords’ meeting happens on December 16th. Granted, I’m not sure he’d make nearly as much sense as an emissary of Jon, but whatever.

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    71. Wimsey: Trying to wedge an arc for her onto the arcs already in his head for the Big Five probably contributed to her delayed evolution

      Yeah…I’m glad GRRM didn’t go through with the “popping out babies for Joff” initial option for Sansa. The tale has evolved in the telling!

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    72. Wimsey:
      So, somebody has to come in last: and in this case, it clearly is Sansa.

      I would say Bran pretty clearly came last. GRRM was running low on development (plot and otherwise) for him by the end of ACOK, whereas for Sansa it didn’t set in until the bridging books. In both cases (and Arya in the bridging books), it’s a consequence of the wait for “Act 2” of his original outline that we were originally supposed to jump to after ASOS, prior to the five-year-gap being scrapped. The Stark kids are minimal presences in the resulting AFFC/ADWD, because there’s not much more that can happen with them before Act 2, whereas other characters had a lot more plot and development that needed to happen.

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    73. Wimsey,

      He will convince some and others will be against him. Simple as that. If you think everyone will be against him, think again. It’s just impossible for him to march on Winterfell with only Wildlings. He will obviously acquire his armor somewhere. I’m not even considering Sansa angle here. More and more adds to the the fact he’ll fight with some Northerners and Wildlings.
      He’ll convince some and they will simplify it just like they did before. With Daeny they will take their sweet time, because her reconnecting with Dothraki is probably hugely important for her character development and obviously Dothraki will play important role in the future. It will give Tyrion time alone in Meereen dealing with problems. Think what you want Wimsey. We’ll see who was right or more closer to the truth. 😉

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    74. The reason that some of the plots are going very slowly for specifically the Stark kids is because GRRM initially intended for their to be a 5 year gap. So I think that we will see there development speed up considerably. I think all of the Stark kids including Jon Snow but not Rickon will have major roles in the end game. Jon and Bran re WW and Sansa more with the political side of things.

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    75. Photobomb skills of the guy in the first DaleMc2 picture are to be commended. XD Nice to see everyone looking happy and fabulous. I wonder when we’ll see a trailer with new footage.

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    76. Sou,

      Yes. Some people want him with Daeny, Sansa, Val in the books or even Arya. Basically they ship Jon with everybody and I might add Sam or Satin too. Poor guy. 😀

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    77. Sean C.: When? The decisions she made in season 5 were far worse than anything the book version has ever done, and even setting that aside, the show version was consistently less intelligent in King’s Landing.

      They were decisions, however: and book Sansa never makes decisions. That is a huge difference right there: it is the difference between an unthinking individual (and it is several books before Sansa truly starts thinking as opposed to just having notions in her head), and a thinking individual.

      Moreover, Sansa’s TV decisions were not dumb decisions, but uninformed decisions. Unlike the viewers, Sansa had no knowledge about what Ramsay was like: and there is no reason why she should have done. You are making the capital mistake of judging decisions by the outcomes rather than by the possible outcomes and also given information to which you have access but to which Sansa could not have had access.

      Sean C.: I would say Bran pretty clearly came last.

      I think that Bran has evolved much more as an individual from Thrones -> Dragons than has Sansa. It is true that Bran’s development slowed after the first two books: but it still has been there.

      Geralt of Rivia: He will convince some and others will be against him. Simple as that. If you think everyone will be against him, think again.

      You should think again! Neither show nor books have provided any reason for anybody to be convinced by anything Jon says. Indeed, I would take it one step further: it will be a plot hole if anybody just takes Jon at his word. Seriously, can you name a single thing from either the show or the books that sets up anyone from Westeros believing this story or not viewing the Wildlings as dangerous invaders?

      Geralt of Rivia: It’s just impossible for him to march on Winterfell with only Wildlings.

      Why? Moreover, who says that he is marching on Winterfell necessarily? The Northerners would march on a Wildling army. Indeed, given what we know from the books,

      they always do, and they have done so several times in the past. Jon actively thinks about a couple of these events when wondering if he’ll be remembered along with the “bad” Lord Commanders who allowed Wildling invasions.

      Geralt of Rivia: He’ll convince some and they will simplify it just like they did before.

      Neverminding whether any comparable examples exist on the book->series adaptation to date, you are expecting the show to make a more complex presentation than I am expecting it do do. Having everyone do the same thing is the simplest solution. If MB&W had setup a situation where some Northerners would accept Jon’s stories whereas others would not, then it would be simplifying things to do as I expect that they will. However, this would either maintain complexity OR introduce complexity that neither the books nor the show have set up.

      Geralt of Rivia: We’ll see who was right or more closer to the truth.

      You can write this, but I have to ask: where do you get these ideas? You basically are assuming that proverbial “guns” hung in the first 5 seasons/books are going to be taken down and hidden, and that proverbial “guns” that have never been hun in the first 5 seasons/books will suddenly appear to be fired. Now, I realize that you have not read the books and as much of my thinking is influenced by the books as is by the show: but if we restrict ourselves to just what has been on the the show, then your scenario demands that hung guns now must be hidden and/or that hitherto unhung guns will be fired!

      I am curious: what do you think that the story is going to be this year if not the internal compromises necessary to get those who do not “believe in” you to follow or otherwise accept you?

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    78. Geralt of Rivia,

      You should see this in westeros.org…Jon fans used to ship him with everyone from val arianne manderly girl karstark girl and even shireen …the qualification and thought process is something like this anyone except dany ….

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    79. Hodors Bastard: Yeah…I’m glad GRRM didn’t go through with the “popping out babies for Joff” initial option for Sansa. The tale has evolved in the telling!

      Indeed! However, I think that it did leave poor Sansa stuck at the staring line while the initial Big 5 went racing ahead.

      I am really curious where she is going. As you might remember, I had expected that Sansa would end up in the camp of a certain missing and presumed dead prince. However, I had been thinking that there was a Stark in every camp in the end: and as one of the camps is gone and a third camp looks to be cut from the show, I clearly was wrong on that. So, I am wondering if Show!Sansa has just gotten ahead of Book!Sansa in seeing herself as the one to restore her little brother to Winterfell. In both cases, I can see Bran being responsible (with or without Sansa realizing that it’s Bran) for Sansa undertaking this quest.

      Of course, I now am suspecting that the whole “missing and presumed dead” thing is just going to be a narrative dead-end, too….

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    80. Wimsey: They were decisions, however: and book Sansa never makes decisions.

      Er, no, you’re actually doing a much better job of describing the show version there. Book Sansa makes all kinds of decisions, if you actually pay attention when reading her chapters, and the show excises pretty much all of them. For instance, the decision whether or not to go to the Godswood, which involves assessing whether it’s a trap or not, and ultimately her deciding that the risk is worth it (and in executing that decision, she arms herself and sneaks through the castle in the middle of the night; the lone thing Sansa actually did in Season 5 is a pale imitation of this moment, which her book self was able to do much earlier in her development). And the subsequent assessment of Dontos and whether or not to accept his help. The show’s version of this was Sansa being dragged out of King’s Landing totally unawares. Or the decision to forego Tyrion’s offer to be moved within the Tower of the Hand so that she can continue to meet with Dontos and hopefully escape, sacrificing potential near-term security in favour of the potential of escape. Or her assessing what Margaery might want in extending her an invitation and whether or not she should accept said invitation (which was replaced by a scene that portrays her as an unthinking naif who needs Big Sister Shae watching out for her).

      Moreover, Sansa’s TV decisions were not dumb decisions, but uninformed decisions.Unlike the viewers, Sansa had no knowledge about what Ramsay was like: and there is no reason why she should have done. You are making the capital mistake of judging decisions by the outcomes rather than by the possible outcomes and also given information to which you have access but to which Sansa could not have had access.

      No, that isn’t at all what I’m doing, because what makes the decision dumb is not that Ramsay was a psycho. Even if Ramsay was a garden-variety bad guy, the decision to go to Winterfell makes absolutely no sense, much like allowing Baelish to take her away from her Vale allies and travel hundreds of miles northward without questioning where they’re going. Nobody with even an iota of sense would do either of those things.

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    81. Pigeon: Ooh! And that mud looks suspiciously similar to the stuff that a certain red lady was trudging through….

      Lol she’s Tormund’s agent and didn’t even spell his name right.

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    82. Sean C.,

      As an addendum, the season 5 plotting has been debated pretty extensively, and so I don’t see any reason to get into a protracted argument over it. Both sides have made their best arguments and aren’t likely to be swayed. So since that’s the direction the conversation appears headed, I’ll suggest agreeing to disagree.

      Regarding the main topic, we’ve now got a bit of a roster of who’s in town on the weekend. Will be interesting to see if we can confirm who’s remaining over the next few days. Watch the airports, nosy Belfast residents!

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    83. I agree with some of you that Jon will have his work cut out for him in convincing the Northern lords to fight against the Boltons. I do think he would be able to convince a few but not everyone.

      I loathe to bring the books into the speculation but didn’t Stannis convince the mountain clans to fight with him based on Jon’s advice? Now that Stannis is dead on the show, I’m guessing the show will have Jon follow his own advice and rally the mountain clans to his cause. Whether he’s successful or not remains to be seen but he could go that route. I can believe that there will be houses who wouldn’t believe the white walkers are coming but there would be others who would believe it.

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    84. Shadow Shifter,

      Thing is, that makes a certain intellectual sense, but the casting for the Northern characters that we know about really doesn’t make it look like Jon’s efforts at convincing people over to his side will form a big part of his arc this year. We’ve got four Northern lords, two of whom seem to be one-scene characters (who they’re interacting with remains to be seen, since they’re filming on Wednesday); one who’s in two episodes, and another in three.

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    85. Shadow Shifter,

      Sean C.,

      And Karstark, the one who will be in 3 episodes is almost certainly fighting for the Boltons, so it could be that his scenes are with the Boltons and not the Starks. It seems like rallying the Northern Lords is not going to be a big part of either Jon or Sansa’s arc. With Jon, I think the first few episodes will be him trying to deal with NW betrayal and his subsequent resurrection, making the decision to go to Winterfell and getting the Wildlings to follow him. But in Sansa’s case, I don’t know what she will be doing for the entire season.

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    86. Danial: the only thing northern lords see is a bastard who wants them to join him for another war!

      Nobody except the Karstarks wants the Boltons as Warden of the North, especially not Ramsay. Alliser will write Roose that Jon let the wildlings out. Roose will threaten to disinherit Ramsay if he doesn’t find Sansa. Brienne will kill Ramsay’s hunters & Ramsay will kill Roose & call the Banners. The Banners will come to take Ramsay’s head.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: I really want to see Sansa’s reaction to seeing Jon.

      She will see blood and collapse.

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    87. Wimsey: Long monologues certainly are new to the show.

      Jaime tub. Cersei Blackwater.

      Wimsey: can you name a single thing from either the show or the books that sets up anyone from Westeros believing this story or not viewing the Wildlings as dangerous invaders?

      King Rickon. Tyrion.

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    88. Yaga: Would be cool if Nym or Tyene met Sam, though.

      Jon: You know that the Citadel will make you swear off women, too.
      Sam: Oh, they’ll bloody try.
      Cue Tyene.

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    89. Wimsey,
      Please don’t call things plotholes because they don’t agree with your speculation. I don’t want to spend the next year arguing with you that no, it was not a plothole, just a different authorial choice.

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    90. dragonbringer,

      I don’t think we need to see Jon with anyone, really. But at least, even if towards the end, it would be nice if he meets someone who’s as good-hearted as he is, and we see some sparks fly and are left with the allusion of a potential budding romance. But no, him and Dany together for me is like oil and water. I’d rather see Greyworm killed off and Missandei fall for Jon 🙂

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    91. Wimsey,

      One thing it seems we’re failing to remember regarding whether people will want to follow Jon or not and questioning who’s going to believe him and especially wondering if he will even believe it himself is that IF he does come back from death he will most assuredly be either the Lord’s champion, Azor, PTWP, etc. whatever one of those, which means that he won’t be just an average human being anymore. He would have some kind of power, the kind Mel said he was resisting, he will most assuredly feel different and will have some kind of magic on his side so I don’t see him needing to grovel too much. Course, I could be wrong.

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    92. ghost of winterfell,

      We really don’t know that yet. They might be doing something in some capacity because let’s face it, Jon might have to play Westerosi politics now, if not this season then in the coming seasons. The North needs to be united to stand against the White Walkers and Jon has to deal with the potential tension with the Wildlings being there. I’m not saying he won’t be successful or that he’s wrong in bringing them in because I happen to think he’s right about letting the Wildlings in but people won’t easily accept it as a solution just because Jon said so.

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    93. I’m thinking Ramsey will capture sansa soon enough…another sansa torture season….While he kills both brienne and reek ..somehow podrick can escape….inform littlefinger who could use resucing sansa…as an excuse to convince knights of Vale to attack north …seize winterfell and rescue her….This somehow I feel won’t sit well with some of the northern Lords …so there could be two factions of northern Lords pro Bolton and anti BOlton…I don’t think knights of Vale will succeed…They will eventually back down..but they will weaken pro Bolton team…While all this goes on Jon will be resurrected…and there will be wildlings and Jon snow and his faithfulls..vs rest of nights watch showdown….This will leave the wall more vulnerable…With too many wildling kids and women ..so Jon will move down south…With them to find them home and also to warn the northern Lords about coming threat ..Instead he will hear about the development in winterfell and decides he will March winterfell..and rescue sansa….He will succeed doing so…so he will go back to the wall with a larger army….leave sansa or rickon as the Lord of winterfell …ask Davos to be around them ,,since Davos is likey super skillful and trustworthy kinda guy…littlefinger will try to trick sansa again…into trusting him……conclusion of season 6 will be …Jon back in wall with a larger army……sansa in winterfell as the Lord with rickon and Davos……

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    94. Ygritte,

      All that means is there is one more guy running around resurrected after dead . .just because he came back from dead doenst mean that he is those things
      Nothing unique about it

      I really am looking forward to see what Mel is going to do after he comes back …if she calls him the AAR or something than she is clearly lying because she already knows there has been many times people have been brought up from the dead …

      Ygritte,

      I really don’t see what is there to talk with you if you think That dany is not good hearted…I will say this thought she is as good as Jon if not more . …
      Iam not adversary to the pairing but I can see the plot and accept the possiblity of the pairing happening..
      I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of some of his fans who will just have Jon pair with anyone from cersei Margery arianne and to children like shireen and missandei…basically anyone expect dany because she is the unspeakable….

      Iam glad gilly and mance had a son otherwise people will be even ready to pair Jon with them anything but dany

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    95. dragonbringer,

      Dany started out good. I just don’t think she is any longer At least not good enough for Jon) and it’ll probably only get worse before it gets better, if it does. What u mean though Gilly and Mance had a baby so that’s why people can’t ship them. I’m confused. Did you mean “Sam?” Would anyone have shipped Jon with Mance haha.

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    96. Ygritte,

      Yeah because now stopping dothraki from enslaving and controlling them and freeing people is going to make her big bad The one who cannot be named …
      I will say this again she is smarter and good and faced many more hardships Than Jon ..

      You do realise your namesake is no saint and yet Jon loved her …she was part of a group that killed and butchered entire villages just in case you forget

      Its time to read the books not the theories …

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    97. So I’m bored and a bit loopy from meds and thus sorry will be off topic here just rambling basically, well slightly but since we got on subject who we want to c get together. These are the people I like together, some of them are obvious popular opinion but anyways:

      Brienne and Jamie
      Sansa and Tyrion
      Dany and Littlefinger (cause they’re both eeviiil)
      Arya and Beric D.
      Cercei and Margaery
      The Hound and the “shame” sister (Because he’s the kind of guy would prone to smack some sense into his woman and that biatch needs it)
      Bronn and Olenna (Just so I could see his face when he told he has to marry her haha.)

      The Dany/Littlefinger one was for you Dragonbringer 🙂 Just teasing ya!

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    98. Ygritte,

      Jon isn’t going to be the same person once he is ressurected either,but i don’t think he will end up with Dany for a myriad of other reasons than the fact that Dany isn’t “good” anymore(wth does that even mean anyway). Like Martin said there is no one truly good or evil as far as main characters go,everyone has their shades of gray .

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    99. dragonbringer,

      I understand your defense of the character you like. Theories has nothing to do with why I don’t care for Daenerys. I just can’t root for her. When she was locking up her dragons, looking back in tears before closing the door on them, I felt some sadness for her, mostly for the dragons, but it was the only time. Seems like a one-dimensional character now. She seemingly has lost all of her relateability and has a one track mind. Show her doing normal stuff, relax her face a bit, laugh at a joke, having an everyday conversation about something other than her wanting to rule and I’m a queen and yada yada. It gets tiresome.

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    100. Ygritte,

      I want to believe you are just teasing with that LF comment …

      Mance had a baby boy in the books which Jon switched with Gilly’s baby boy …
      If both of those were girls instead of boys …his fans will even pair them with those children but not with dany …

      Like I said ygritte is no saint and let me tell you this … Its not who is worthy to Jon …he is yet to accomplish anything on the level of dany …I would go on to say that Jon is not worthy for dany not the other way around …iam talking about for now ofcourse …

      If there is one thing I hate is this…speaking against Jon for dany…I really can’t understand how people can’t see that how much Jon and dany are alike in their mind and at heart

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    101. Ygritte,

      Its not the fault of the character its the fault of the writing ….they turned her into one dimensional which she is not ….and she is not alone in this they have turned tyrion and Jon too as one dimensional in the show ….

      And so if you cant care and cheer for her and one dimensional in wanting to rule and correct her mistakes and protect the people ….she becomes the big evil and not good in your eyes

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    102. Tatsi

      While I can certainly understand your wish to see the site become as stupid as you are, I’m sure I’m not alone in being glad that it’s not going to happen.

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    103. Tyrion the myrion,

      I never said I wanted Jon to end up with Dany in the first place. I’m fine with neither one of them ending up with anybody. The talk of her not being “good” anymore was in response to the poster who wondered why people ship Jon with anybody BUT Dany. I gave my personal opinion about her is all. What does it even mean, you ask? Well, I’m only speculating (which is a huge part of the conversations here) but I simply don’t see Dany as being a “good guy” right now. That could change next season.

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    104. dragonbringer,

      If I had read the books, who knows, I might be rooting for her all the way right now. A written story can serve up a lot more detail on the inner workings of a character’s mind and motives so you get to know them, and understand their journey, on a different level. You have one up on me here. I can only go by what I’ve seen on the TV.

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    105. dragonbringer,

      Jon probably fell for her only because she loved him first. That kind of love would be hard to resist for a young, inexperienced man I think. She was no saint of course not, but he realized that was the life she’d always known and was hardened to as a matter of survival. He understood that his NW had at times done the same thing they did. When he drove the spear through Orell and left Ygritte behind I had the impression that maybe he did so, sure partly cause that was a good time to escape, but also cause a part of him was like..wait I care for this woman but I can’t abide the senseless brutality she goes along with….kind of thing.

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    106. dragonbringer,

      We still don’t know if Mel will bring him back. We don’t even know if Mel is capable of bringing anyone back. She might but I wouldn’t rule out Bran and Bloodraven out yet. And we also don’t know how R+L=J plays into his resurrection. There are so many factors at play that we can’t really say Mel will be the one to bring him back.

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    107. Shadow Shifter,

      Jon or Sansa or both of them together will be dealing with the Northern Lords yes, but there won’t be too much focus/ screentime given to this arc, I think, based on the casting news we have got. Out of the 4 Northern Lords who have been car, 2 are appearing in only one episode. The one appearing in 3 episodes, Karstark, will be fighting for the Boltons, so his scenes will most probably be with the Boltons. So whatever the issue is between Jon/ wildlings/ other northmen will be sorted out in one meeting. Like in the Hardhome episode. As for future seasons, yeah Jon could get more involved with Westerosi politics, or atleast have to deal with the people in power, if his focus going forward, is going to be warning the rest of Westeros about the WWs. We don’t know what his next action will be after retaking Winterfell ( hopefully!). It may depend on when the WWs breach the Wall.

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    108. Shadow Shifter,

      You are right we really don’t know…
      But in the show I definitiely think Mel is the one who is going to bring back Jon otherwise I don’t see the reason of her return to the wall ..she could have just died with stannis…

      Whatever happen…iam sure of one thing that something like Jon walking out of fire alive is not going happen ….

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    109. Sean C.: Book Sansa makes all kinds of decisions, if you actually pay attention when reading her chapters, and the show excises pretty much all of them. For instance, the decision whether or not to go to the Godswood, which involves assessing whether it’s a trap or not, and ultimately her deciding that the risk is

      You consider these to be “decisions”? They rank up there with which privvy to use. Moreover, most of these just show the lack of decision-making by Sansa: all she does is what the most-recent person tells her to do. Sansa gets given other opportunities, and she always goes with the most recent one she was told to take: and then she goes to the Godswood and Dontos tells her to do something else. And everytime, her “decision” really comes down to one thing: what is the most like what happened in one of her fairy tales?

      That’s not thinking: that’s believing.

      Sean C.: Even if Ramsay was a garden-variety bad guy, the decision to go to Winterfell makes absolutely no sense, much like allowing Baelish to take her away from her Vale allies and travel hundreds of miles northward without questioning where they’re going. Nobody with even an iota of sense would do either of those things.

      Again, Sansa has seen herself how this can work. Marriage offers an opportunity to become a power behind the seat. It takes time and conniving, but it’s the only way she has ever seen a woman actually gain and exert power.

      Indeed, had Ramsay been what they were expecting (i.e., someone so overwhelmed and overjoyed by being legitimized and made noble that he would be eager to please), then Sansa could have rapidly come to exert great influence and power over him. The general plan could have worked quite easily.

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    110. Shadow Shifter: We don’t even know if Mel is capable of bringing anyone back. She might but I wouldn’t rule out Bran and Bloodraven out yet. And we also don’t know how R+L=J plays into his resurrection.

      Basic rules of storytelling are informative here. And, again, it comes down to guns hung early need to be fired later, and guns fired late need to be hung early.

      1. That R’hllor can revive the dead or near-dead has been hung on the wall. Ergo, Mel can revive Jon. (Remember, this is not Dungeons and Dragons where you have to be an Xth level cleric to do these things: it is down to R’hllor, whatever it is.)

      2. That the old gods can revive the dead or near-dead has not been hung on the Wall. The shows little insight into their powers, and although the books provide a little more insight, this power does not come up. Ergo, it would be arbitrary and Deus ex Machina in both senses of the term rather than just one sense a la R’hllor. Given that GRRM and B&W both tend to avoid arbitrary (and B&W tend to eliminate what arbitrariness GRRM retains), we should not expect this.

      3. Who Jon’s parents are should be about as relevant as the position of Mars is on weather forecasts. Unless we think that Beric has the same parentage, then we have no reason to think that who your parents are has any bearing on whether you can be revived. Again, if this was to be the case, then it was incumbent on the show and the books to tell us this. Neither did.

      dragonbringer: Whatever happen…iam sure of one thing that something like Jon walking out of fire alive is not going happen ….

      As we have seen before, the revival brings them back, but it leaves the scars of what happened. If Jon walks out of a pyre, then Jon later should look like a burn victim. However, he doesn’t (the makeup would be obvious). What we do not know is what is going to happen immediately after Jon’s assassination. Does Alliser have reinforcements from Westeros there to help him deal with the Wildlings? How will the Wildlings react once they learn, and how quickly will they learn? How quickly will Mel arrives? Indeed, we should not be surprised if Mel descends upon them very quickly, scatters them herself (she is quite powerful), revives Jon, and then gets the hell out of Dodge.

      Yes, there is some magic and high fantasy in SoI&F. However, I would bet against it rather than for it whenever it’s a possibility: really, with a couple of exceptions, the series avoids it in favor of subtle magics and human actions.

      ghost of winterfell: It may depend on when the WWs breach the Wall.

      This obviously is going to be a key factor. The #1 issue will be getting people to even believe that this is happening. The #1b issue will be getting people to accept that this is more important than Wildlings in Westeros or the War of 3 Queens or whatever other issues come up. Something that I do not think can be understated is just how absurd this would seem to the Westerosi: to them, this would be like us being told that Santa Claus is real and still around (as opposed to being derived from some long forgotten and subsequently canonized Nicholas from centuries ago), and that he actually has all of the abilities in the stories.

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    111. Ygritte:
      Arkash,
      Wish I could enlarge those screens to see who the people are those scenes.

      Had a go with our old friend Photoshop, but sadly the pictures are far too low res to get anything really useful. You can’t tell who the people are at all 🙁 Best estimates are: left hand monitor, one person with shortish (Joffery length rather than Sparrows) red hair, Tormund maybe? There are two people on the right hand screen, both standing up. The one on the right seems to either have ‘big’ hair or is wearing a hat/hood and is about a foot (30cm) taller than the one on the left, who has similar length and style hair to Arya. It looks to me like a tall child or small adult plus a tall, but not usually so, adult. Best guess is Arya and an approximately 6 foot tall man. I wanna stress these are guesses though, you really can’t see enough to do anything other than that 🙂

      EDIT: And of course they might be people we don’t know anyway.

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    112. dragonbringer,

      A lot of poeple want them together there and in general. It’s just predictable. Everyone is trying to ship him with someone and it’s tiresome. I would prefer for him to stay alone and focusing on his task and instead of boring romances.You don’t need to to try to insult his fans, because everyone does that. Dany fans, some of his etc always have the needs to put them together for no reason, reaching out when it comes to foreshadowing like Val’s hair turning in the moonlight or Ghost and her looks like they belong together etc. Insulting him as character, special snowflake, boring but when it comes to romance, yeah let’s ship them or vice versa. Parallels might be there to establish two individuals as leaders and the way they grew into this with their high and lows. Preparing them for the last fight.

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    113. Wimsey,

      Basic rules of storytelling are informative here. And, again, it comes down to guns hung early need to be fired later, and guns fired late need to be hung early.

      1. That R’hllor can revive the dead or near-dead has been hung on the wall. Ergo, Mel can revive Jon. (Remember, this is not Dungeons and Dragons where you have to be an Xth level cleric to do these things: it is down to R’hllor, whatever it is.)

      2. That the old gods can revive the dead or near-dead has not been hung on the Wall. The shows little insight into their powers, and although the books provide a little more insight, this power does not come up. Ergo, it would be arbitrary and Deus ex Machina in both senses of the term rather than just one sense a la R’hllor. Given that GRRM and B&W both tend to avoid arbitrary (and B&W tend to eliminate what arbitrariness GRRM retains), we should not expect this.

      3. Who Jon’s parents are should be about as relevant as the position of Mars is on weather forecasts. Unless we think that Beric has the same parentage, then we have no reason to think that who your parents are has any bearing on whether you can be revived. Again, if this was to be the case, then it was incumbent on the show and the books to tell us this. Neither did.

      Please don’t talk down on me like I’m an incompetent noob. I know the rules of basic storytelling.

      1) We only have Thoros in the show. We don’t know if all R’hillor priest can revive the dead or near dead. We did see Mel visiting Thoros so who knows. Again, it’s speculation. D&D could very well go another way. Call it shit storytelling but please let us not assume that there’s only one way and it’s your way, okay?

      2) Again, you mispresent my comment. We don’t know that. We have no idea. We do know they have power too. How that play into the whole scheme of things with Bran and the CoTF, we don’t know.

      3) Did I say that? I’m only saying that the resurrection might affect him differently than say Beric or Cat. Again, we don’t know that. He might do a Dany for a all we know if indeed he is a Targ.

      Again, please try and remember that other posters here have different opinions and talking down to them because they happen to hold a different view from them won’t help.

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    114. Geralt of Rivia,

      I agree. I love a good romantic element but I honestly don’t understand the need for everyone to ship each and every character. Although I don’t blame them because Kit and Emilia have this insane chemistry on stills. They haven’t met together on the show but they photograph and play off each other really well. So I dunno.

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    115. dragonbringer,

      Yeah. That’d be highly implausible but until I see it, I won’t discount anything. Also, Jon might be revived differently in the books, too. It’d be interesting to see the differences though.

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    116. Wimsey: You consider these to be “decisions”?They rank up there with which privvy to use.Moreover, most of these just show the lack of decision-making by Sansa: all she does is what the most-recent person tells her to do.Sansa gets given other opportunities, and she always goes with the most recent one she was told to take: and then she goes to the Godswood and Dontos tells her to do something else.And everytime, her “decision” really comes down to one thing: what is the most like what happened in one of her fairy tales?

      Yes, I would consider deciding whether something is a trap and whether it’s worth risking it to go there a pretty consequential decision. And a brave one. Much like choosing whether to take short-term safety over the chance of escape. And the analysis of what to do with Margaery shows her analyzing the angles of court politics, something the show version never does (book Sansa also identified the Tyrells’ motive for the Purple Wedding in advance, something none of the Lannisters ever do). It is not about “fairy tales”; she obviously hopes for the best, because she has no other incentives to offer potential rescuers.

      And even were one to accept your characterization of Sansa’s decisions (which I don’t; if your nonsensical claim was true, she would have dropped the Tyrells after Dontos told her to, and she would have accepted Tyrion’s offer over Dontos’), you are, again, describing the show version to a tee, since all she does all season is what Littlefinger and the old lady tell her to do.

      Again, Sansa has seen herself how this can work.Marriage offers an opportunity to become a power behind the seat.It takes time and conniving, but it’s the only way she has ever seen a woman actually gain and exert power.

      Indeed, had Ramsay been what they were expecting (i.e., someone so overwhelmed and overjoyed by being legitimized and made noble that he would be eager to please), then Sansa could have rapidly come to exert great influence and power over him.The general plan could have worked quite easily.

      No, it would never have worked, because the Starks and Boltons are enemies, and they would have to be complete morons to give her any actual power, let alone power that could be used against them. Her situation is no different than when she was in King’s Landing.

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    117. Geralt of Rivia,

      That’s why I didn’t add someone like arya or val or dany ….there are some points pointing to it …whereas the ones I named are paired just for the reason anyone other than dany .

      Iam not against the pairing …I don’t care about the shippings like arya or val or dany ….as there is some textual context for this pairings….
      But when you go on with aim of creating a pairing with no clue or a point pointing to that pairing and just having a wishfull thinking about what they want for that character ….
      Dany fans I see have a lot less problem about this because they tend to live both characters but its oppositie in Jon case …when you see comments like dany stealing the spotlight from him and not worthy of jon …you cant be surprised people call him special snowflake ..

      Whatever one can tell no one can deny he is a special snowflake

      I will tell you this I see parallel not only as leaders but individuals they Both are same at heart …

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    118. ghost of winterfell,
      Yes they certainly might be a boy. I just though Arya because the hair reminded me of her but it could be absolutely anyone. All I’m remotely confident of is that the person on the right is noticeably taller than the one on the left as they seem to be standing together on the same ground level (rather than, for example, one much nearer the camera than the other). It’ll probably turn out to be two crew members or something 🙂

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    119. What episode do you think Jon will be resurrected? If it is too soon it will be pretty weird on a rewatch. Since there are nine months between Seasons it wouldn’t seem weird at first.

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    120. Sean C.: When?The decisions she made in season 5 were far worse than anything the book version has ever done

      Going to the queen and telling her of Eddard’s plan to get them out of the city was a lot stupider, imo.

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    121. Young Dragon,

      That’s hardly a shining moment. But in that case she, through a combination of her own childish naïveté and the neglect of her dad, thought Cersei was a friend. I consider it much, much stupider for her to voluntarily become a hostage to the Boltons, who she knows are her enemies (and makes no effort to hide this); and earlier, after gaining leverage on Baelish, abandoning it completely without the slightest protest.

      But like I said last night, we’ve argued over Season 5 here at length in the past, and I’d rather not get too far down that road again. So I’d suggest leaving it there.

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    122. Jack Bauer 24,

      The two resurrections we have had so far ( Beric and LS) happened pretty soon after their deaths. Beric was resurrected immediately after his death, atleast the 6th time, and LS after 3 days and we saw how she returned. Since that will not happen with Jon, I think the resurrection should happen pretty soon, maybe Ep 2 or 3 at the latest. In the books it might be a bit different though.

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    123. Again a thread is derailed by Sansa ”debates” it seams.
      I swear, only Stannis fans are worse.

      And this comes from someone who finds Sansa quite an interesting character.

      Young Dragon,
      Wimsey,

      Don’t bother, he already made up his mind. There’s no point in arguing.
      We are simply not smart enough to realize what an inteligent and well developed character Sansa truly is in the books….

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    124. Mihnea:
      Again a thread is derailed by Sansa ”debates” it seams.
      I swear, only Stannis fans are worse.

      Uh, I wasn’t the one who brought this up, dude. Other posters, not particularly in relation to anything previously under discussion, attacked the book version of the character as inferior, in very strong terms. All I did was offer the counter argument.

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    125. Ygritte: What do you mean cue Tyene? Are you saying Sam would cheat on Gilly?

      Of course not. I’m saying Gilly will be at Horn Hill while Sam will be lonely at the Citadel, and when Tyene walks in, little Sam will go, “Oh, my.”

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    126. Deesensfan: see sophie in this

      It’s going to be quite a mental task for me to not see and hear Sansa in anything Sophie does, especially as Jean Grey. In that trailer, all I saw and heard was Sansa. :/

      In any case, I can’t wait to see Olivia Munn as Psylocke.

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    127. Mihnea,

      I’m less weary of seeing debates about Sansa than I am the “every single person in Westeros will view Jon as nothing but a bastard traitor” versus “different people will have different views” debate. Then again, I was active in that debate in weeks past, so that’s probably why I’m more tired of it.

      Regarding Sansa, and I’m by no means a Sansa fan, what some tend to categorize as lack of intelligence I tend to chalk up to other things. I don’t think she’s stupid. I think she makes stupid decisions, at times, but that doesn’t mean she lacks intelligence. Aged up for the show, or not, she’s still a teenager. That, right there, will lend itself to some really poor decision making. Add to that, even leaving everything else she’s been through aside, the fact in a very short period of time, she believes she has lost her entire family, with the exception of a half-brother. She saw her father decapitated. She believes her two younger brothers to have been betrayed (by someone with whom she grew up, no less) and brutally murdered. Her mother and older brother have been betrayed and brutally murdered. She believes her sister to be dead, as well. Expecting her to think clearly and make sound/well-reasoned decisions is not, imo, a realistic expectation. To put it in modern terms, I can’t imagine the severity of her PTSD. That’s why I try and have some patience with her. It’s why, even the tiniest steps forward seem like an accomplishment, to me. Again, Sansa is not my cup of tea in terms of characters, but I suppose I’m willing to cut her some slack given all she’s been through.

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    128. Sean C.,

      Sansa intentionally closed her eyes to reality. Cersei had her pet executed, Joffrey tormented her little sister and an innocent boy, Jaime Lannister had soldiers attack her father and butcher Stark men in the streets, and the Lannisters invaded Tully lands. Being purposefully naive isn’t a very good justification. With the Boltons, Sansa was feeling survivors’s guilt over the atrocities committed against her family. Littlefinger played on this guilt, which led to her decision to attempt to take back her home and avenger her family. Besides, Sansa had no way of knowing that Littlefinger would leave her there and was under the assumption that she will be under his protection.

      Sean C.:
      Young Dragon,

      But like I said last night, we’ve argued over Season 5 here at length in the past, and I’d rather not get too far down that road again.So I’d suggest leaving it there.

      You can’t make an argument and expect me not to counter. If you want to stop arguing, stop arguing.

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    129. Wimsey,

      I’m Just so bored w/her. Grrm does covet her, I believe, unfortunately, so this would never happen, but I wish that she would develop into an evil character.

      It would be a super & fitting twist.
      I mean isn’t Book sansa poisoning lil robin on purpose? (Ive chosen not to read the last two published books & i’ve only read the others once, ages ago, so correct if i’m wrong).

      Perhaps not ALL of the Stark kids should turn out on the good side of the force?

      Maybe her being much like caitlyn, being raised by cersei, & everything else she’s been through, has jaded her beyond repair?

      I would love the surprise of Arya working through her, uhmm, issues/getting revenge out of her system by the end of the story, then realising she just wants a peaceful, fun/adventurous lifestyle with no wars/death. She just wants a competent, fair ruler w/some common since.

      Whileher sister’s arc parallels cersei’s to a tee. Sansa ends up thereason for her own demise through greed, selfishness, & childish ways.

      After Ayra saves mankind w/her army of direwolves, she ends up w/gendry. They have a slew of kids & become the westoros version of the traveling von trapps 😉 heehe! I made myself chuckle. They would be made famous by their satirical epic onstage battle/dragon/dirwolf/giant (played by hodor or wun wun himself) scenes vs classical singing

      Hot pie is their chef who travels w/them

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    130. Ygritte,

      Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension because i never implied you said that,i was saying that i don’t think Jon and Dany will end up together for other reasons than her not being good for him like you said . And i thin you should read my comment again about the whole good guys and bad guys analogy,because if even after 5 seasons you did not understand that the show and books goes beyong that tired cliche then i don’t know what to say to you .

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    131. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Exactly my toughts.

      Sansa is really not important too me, given the fact she had 2 chapter in 10 years helps..
      But I started too enjoy and really feel for her in the show. It does bother me that she makes ”poor” decisions(at least she makes some in the show) but she is still a 16-18 year old, so that is to be expected.

      I find myself looking foward too seeing her this season and really looking foward to see how she will evolve.

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    132. MaesterMercy:

      I mean isn’t Book sansa poisoning lil robin on purpose?

      No. If Baelish is poisoning him, it’s without her knowledge.

      Young Dragon:
      You can’t make an argument and expect me not to counter. If you want to stop arguing, stop arguing.

      Fair enough.

        Quote  Reply

    133. Ygritte,

      Sansa had her chance w/Tyrion & she blew it. He deserves some happiness in the rest of his life after the last battle. He should get to be w/tysha, dany, val, quathe, or the new red priestess we saw last episode. Even Ayra would be better suited for him after she experiences puberty. But it would be great if Arya ended up w/gendry 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    134. Deesensfan,

      I literally can’t wait, X-Men is both one of my all time favorite film franchises and among my top three comic books, and sophie well i love her immeasurably i said that before, she plays not one but two of my all time favorite fictional characters sansa and jean grey ( the famous telepathic and telekinetic redhead member of x-men)

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    135. Daughter of Winter,

      I look forward to seeing the new X-Men, although I’ll wait until I can watch it at home (I’m not that big on going out to see movies, at least not these days…the only two I’ll go out to see before the new year are Star Wars and Macbeth (which I was supposed to see a few days ago, but things got wonky, and I couldn’t 🙁 ). On a kind of random note, and it is no criticism, I just think it’ a little funny, Sophie will be a shorter version of Jean Grey than the one we saw in the first few X-Men films. Sophie is fairly tall at 5’9″, but Famke Janssen is 6’0″. 🙂

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    136. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Well these are teen versions of these characters that we’re going to see in the movie so that actually make sense, also this movie as singer said in multiple occasions is both a conclusion and a new start for the franchise which is bloody exciting for me as a long time fan now if only fox announce a solo jean grey movie with sophie…

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    137. Daughter of Winter,

      You know infinitely more about it than I. I haven’t even seen all the X-Men/X-Men single character movies. I just know there’s a new film coming out…hahaha. I will say, the shots I’ve seen of James McAvoy as the character Patrick Stewart played look pretty amazing.

        Quote  Reply

    138. MaesterMercy:
      Ygritte,

      Sansa had her chance w/Tyrion & she blew it. He deserves some happiness in the rest of his life after the last battle. He should get to be w/tysha, dany, val, quathe, or the new red priestess we saw last episode. Even Ayra would be better suited for him after she experiences puberty. But it would be great if Arya ended up w/gendry

      Tyrion doesn’t “deserve” Sansa and Arya would kill him for forcefully marrying her sister and playing a key role in her house’s downfall. Also they are nothing alike in show or books.

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    139. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Bryan Singer’s work on X-men is among the best adaptations of a comic book for any medium, he captures everything about story and characters perfectly, absolutely a talented filmmaker just see The Usual Suspects if you haven’t already and you know what i’m talking about.

      And about James McAvoy yes he’s absolutely perfect for a young Professor X just like Fassbender as young magneto and specially (specially for myself anyway) Sophie as Jean.

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    140. Ygritte: he will most assuredly be either the Lord’s champion, Azor, PTWP, etc. whatever one of those, which means that he won’t be just an average human being anymore.

      I think the point of the story is average people doing extraordinary things (good & bad) & religion/magic/tales are bullshit. He won’t gain any superpowers he didn’t already have. He may learn how to use them. Perhaps the trauma will change his perception.

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    141. Ygritte,

      Here Here. My thoughts exactly. Tyrion didn’t rape her or use her like everyone else around her. I don’t hate sansa, i’m just bored of discussions about her & I love my Tyrion 😉

        Quote  Reply

    142. Ygritte:
      BeardedOnion,

      I think tyrion treated Sansa very well. He was a gentleman with her and showed empathy.

      Exactly. Remember, he hardly wanted to be married to her either, but he treated her with respect (to the mocking of him by his family for it, of course), certainly no other Lannister would have. She could have learned a lot from him with time (there was one scene I recall where they were talking quite amiably, perhaps on the way to Joffrey’s wedding?)

      No, Tyrion needs someone to match his wit. And at this point I’m thinking Sansa would probably welcome a eunuch as a husband, or for pete’s sakes just her own company!!!

        Quote  Reply

    143. Sean C.,

      Ah, good to know. Guess Sansa going to the dark side is decidedly out then 🙁 I can still dream

      Bring on Arya & her wolfpack 🙂
      Rygritte,

      Yes, I can see Jon/the story evolvung either way. I for one would enjoy either of these scenarios playing out.

      I have to just say how clever both of your screen names are & what a kick I get out of them. In my mind you’re the entertaining wilding twins of WoTW. Always enjoy your posts

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    144. BeardedOnion,

      Not sure why Jon and Arya are supposed to be killing Tyrion for marrying Sansa but it’s okay for Sansa to imagine kisses with the Hound who has done worse to the Starks: namely slaughtering loyal Stark men in KL (including Jeyne’s father), brutally murdering Arya’s friend Mycah, physically assaulting and kidnapping Arya, holding Sansa captive etc. If Tyrion is a bad guy than so is the Hound.

      I think we will see the Jon/Tyrion friendship renewed in the books. Jon was more worried about Tyrion than Sansa in the books.

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    145. Pigeon,

      Yes I too remember Tyrion trying comfort Sansa, let her know that he wasn’t out to hurt her, my family is douchbaggery, I don’t Like them either; basically just saying let’s just make the best of this, lemme know whatever I can do for you.

      I thought, ‘ah, this is where sansa will begin to have empathy for Tyrion’s situation, pick his intelligent brain, learn savvy, etc & begin to finally grow.’ I mean, before ea season I kept hearing, this is the season sansa grows up & does great things.

      But alas, it never came to pass. They couldve become a power couple, if she had gotten over her childish snobbery. I do believe she probably does have a major case of ptsd, I just kept hoping she’d snap put of it w/the help of Tyrion’s kindness.

      I then began thinking how great it would be if she ended up going to the dark side. Having 1stark go there wpuld be interesting.

      GRRM is keeping her true to her character by not allowing her to go to the dark side or be able to give Tyrion a chance, in her minmind, keeping her honor.

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    146. Wimsey,

      Well said and i don’t think it will be that difficult for Jon to make these changes morally, I do believe he killed the boy when he died and the new Jon will be more cunning, adaptable and less staunch on being so honest and true. With dany I think she has already begun making necessary steps to strengthen her rule so she will have little moral difficulties doing what’s needed I cannot freaking wait

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    147. SerNoName,

      Yes, I would love to see that delightful relationship renewed. I think Sam & Tyrion would get along swimmingly as well. Add in Arya, Gendry, HotPie, WunWun & I’ll be in Heaven 🙂 a girls gotta dream

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    148. Irishton,

      Totally agree that Jon will not be as trusting & will be focussed on doing the ‘right’ thing in whatever situation & not be worried if others think his action aren’t honorable

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    149. MaesterMercy:
      Pigeon,

      I thought, ‘ah, this is where sansa will begin to have empathy for Tyrion’s situation, pick his intelligent brain, learn savvy, etc & begin to finally grow.’ I mean, before ea season I kept hearing, this is the season sansa grows up & does great things.

      This is pretty much what happened with Dany in book one. She was forcefully married to Drogo. She learned from him and the Dothraki and ended up influencing/manipulating him. She was able to use her power with him to help the slaves and was able to get him to agree to invade Westeros for her. She got a Dothraki army. Drogo was far worse compared to Tyrion, but Dany made the best of her situation.

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    150. MaesterMercy,

      I may have rplied to the wrong post lol. That last bit was for ygritte & rygritte heehe! Thats why I don’t post that often, I’m not too savvy about it & don’t have the time I need to post often enough to learn very quickly.

      I am just so excited tonight thinking of next season, I had to get on here. + I had the time 🙂

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    151. SerNoName,

      That’s whut I’m talkin bout right there. That’s when I fell in love w/Dany. Such a strong willed girl who figures out what she wants early & then figures out how to get exactly what she wants.

        Quote  Reply

    152. Sean C.: No.If Baelish is poisoning him, it’s without her knowledge.

      This is patently false as the maester specifically tells SANSA that too much of the Sweetsleep is dangerous for Sweet Robin. Despite this, she asks him to go ahead and dose Robin with the drug and even threatens the maester with LF if he does not do as she orders.

      Sansa is definitely heading for a darker arc in the books. After all she’s more or less LF’s minion in the Vale and has ignored her aunt’s dying confessions about LF.

      This is why I think it will be Stark Vs Stark on the show. With Sansa siding with LF against Jon.

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    153. MaesterMercy,

      Yeah, I tend to gloss over Sansa discussions myself. I remember when first coming online to the forums so many of the threads would evolve into discussing her even if she was not the topic haha. After the first season, and maybe part of the second, she hasn’t been interesting to me. That could change, depending.

        Quote  Reply

    154. SerNoName,

      “With Sansa siding with LF against Jon.”

      Oh man, that would just be the last straw. Going to rescue his sister, one who apparently never gave him the time of day, only for her to turn on him as well? Ugh. First his father never telling him where he came from, being scorned by his step-mom, feeling no place to go but the cold Wall, hated by Alliser for no reason, turned down the offer to be named Lord of Winterfell, (KING IN THE NORTH:) because he want to stay true to his “new family” but lo and behold they murder him. If Sansa does this he should say screw the North, team up with all the Wildlings he can gather, and head south to take over King’s Landing, by which time anyway Cersei will probably have either cracked up, or simply has no fight left in her.

        Quote  Reply

    155. Pigeon,

      It was a pleasure to watch Tyrion and Sansa jokingly plotting together. Unfortunately, as a book reader, I knew that their friendship wouldn’t last. I could certainly see Tyrion and Sansa as good friends, she must remember how kind he was. But as a couple, I don’t know if they are suited. I can’t find really a perfect match for Tyrion in the books or show.

        Quote  Reply

    156. SerNoName,

      Wow, she’s something else. I thought I remembered her in control of robin’s meds. That’s when I began to feel sorry for him even though he is a brat. He really trusts sansa & seems to love her as much as a brat can love someone else. + they’re family, so hers is the ultimate betrayal in my book. I wonder if she’ll find a way to off rickon too after she helps him get winterfell? Kind of taking cersei’s insane power hungry path lol.

      Wouldn’t It be grand if Arya is the sister who ends up encompassing true honor by savesing the world w/Nymeria & her wolfpack? What do you see for her future?

        Quote  Reply

    157. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Yes, the girl def has a major case of ptsd, which is completely understandable. Just like in real life, some people can come out of it/overcome it quickly, some never recover, & then some are in between those two states. It will be interesting to see how she ends up.

        Quote  Reply

    158. Rygritte,

      Bwhaahahaaa!! Sam is so awesome! He def deserves whatever lil bit of happiness he can find. Him & Gilly are adorable together. I’ve really enjoyed all the other posts about their real, sentimental, & comical sex scene. I do wish it hadn’t been occurred right after an attempted rape, but I’m not overly upset about because the scene itself was right on.

        Quote  Reply

    159. Mihnea,

      I humbly disagree. The level of the debate was quite good, therefore the thread was not derailed by it, IMO. And to be honest, I think You kind of lowered the level yourself, by jumping in Sean’s throat (again).
      I like both versions of Sansa (and really enjoy Sophie Turner’s work), but both Book and Series Sansa’s supporters are entitled to their opinion.

        Quote  Reply

    160. Lady anti-Jonerys,

      I was a bit too snarky yesterday, I admit it. Had a bad day..

      I disagree, the debate was exactly the same we always have about Sansa.
      The same back-and-forth of opinions.

      One poster say he likes Sansa’s sory in the books, another then comes and say he doesn’t and brings forth some arguments. Arguments that the first poster doesn’t belive too be true and he brings on his own arguments, wich the second person doesn’t belive them to be true either.

      Sansa making decisions is a good example. One poster presents them as arguments too say that Sansa has a better story in the books. But to the other person those very same arguments are what he dislikes about her story there.
      In the end it comes down too personal opinion.

      So we have an endless loop, that goes nowhere.

        Quote  Reply

    161. Mihnea,

      Oh, now I get your point, it was not exactly a bad debate, just too repetitive for the “veteran” posters. I’m new here, and therefore the discussion was also fresh for me.
      And, yeah, it was kinda “back and forth”, but at least both sides had arguments worth read it, it was not just “Book Sansa sucks” or “Series Sansa is terrible”, You know?

      And I’m sorry about whatever happened to You yesterday, hope everything is fine or at least better now. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    162. Ygritte,

      I totally agree with you, he more than likely will be an upgraded Jon, whether he already had it inside of him or/ and will gain something special from the red God and definitely will not be begging for anyones help. This is really how I hope it happens so I am a little biased but alot of the discussions are great but this will make the politics behind him getting support void, I could be completely wrong of course and i appreciate your post thank you

        Quote  Reply

    163. Ygritte,

      I would include Jon cause otherwise people might said he’s a mary sue like they did for daenerys..
      As for Sansa we haven’t seen she reach her full potential yet…

        Quote  Reply

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