Alfie Allen bares all- not in the early Theon sense- in a new article in Digital Trends, opening up about Theon’s transformation into Reek, his possible return to Theon, and offering hints at season five.
The actors discusses Reek posing as Theon to help capture Moat Cailin, and talks about that intense shaving scene with Ramsay in season 4, where Reek learns of Robb’s fate:
I mean it’s really down to those boys David and Dan having that faith in me, leading up to that moment when, as you say, he’s pretending to be Theon again. It was kind of daunting to do, and it did kind of confuse me slightly. But it was needed, and I think it shows where Theon may be returning at some point. I guess that might be the first start of it. For me, the real first start of it is when he finds out about Robb Stark’s death. There’s a part of his brain that’s been inactive that maybe gets reactivated by that news.
Allen also gives us these tantalizing hints at season five:
I can tell you that there will be characters crossing paths and interacting — especially in my storyline — who have never met, or have had just minute amounts of screentime together. That relationship blossoms, and the running theme of Season 5 is that you get so many different characters who were in different parts of the world crossing paths with each other.
I could also say to you that Theon will definitely go through his trials and tribulations this season. And there may be, in some sort of Game of Thrones way, a light at the end of the tunnel for him. There’s definitely a moment or two — and one in particular — that will really blow people away.
For more on filming in Belfast, music, and reading the books, check out the full interview at Digital Trends.
Sue the Fury: There’s been a lot of speculation that Theon could run into Brienne or Sansa in the North. With this interview’s hints, I’m starting to think such a thing is a lot more likely.
Horror!
Sansa in Winterfell y’all. It’s happening, deal with it.
I think Theon will sacrifice himself in some manner judging by the” in some sort of Game of Thrones way, a light at the end of the tunnel for him”.
im so excited for this storyline. Thinking Alfie Allen is about to get the recognition he so well deserves!
the rise of theon! im sure the actor is tired of his depressing ass scenes
Huh, maybe Mance is going to Winterfell.
At any rate, it’s good to read that it looks like they are sticking to the story for the season, at least insofar as Theon is concerned: and if they are doing it for Theon, then they will be doing it for others. That “light clicking on” is the thing!
I think this mostly alludes to Tyrion’s adventures in the east, for the most part, but also the tail-end of Theon’s story. I think s05’s ending will be in line with ADWD’s ending,
I don’t think Littlefinger would hand Sansa over to the Boltons. He has to know how much danger that’d put her in. Though both Sansa’s and the Boltons’ storylines are my favorites so far. Bringing them together would be a dream (er, nightmare.) My greatest fear is that Ramsay will want Sansa to put the lotion in the basket.
I am so excite :3
Wimsey,
Still going to live in denial for a while yet eh?
A character in Theon’s storyline who has only shared a minute amount of screen time and who has their relationship blossom throughout the season? Yeah, I’m sure he’s referring to Mance here.
sansa @winterfell confirmed!
Came here to say that… I dont see anyone else but Sansa fitting the bill.
He’s never met nor Brienne, nor Mance, nor Davos, nor Stannis and though for the latter three, it’s still probable he crosses path with them, there is only Sansa he’s shared a minimum amount of screentime with.
There have certainly been visual hints in the promo materials: the northbound carriage train in the trailer, the Bolton family apparently greeting an honored guest in their promo photo. Sansa in the bath which may or not be the Winterfell set. The presence of Theon & Ramsay in what was ostensibly a Sansa-themed Raven’s Sight promo.
I think it’s happening, and I’m stoked. This is streamlining of the story I can absolutely get behind. It actually might be the subplot I’m most excited for in Season 5.
leave them!
his ne of those who think LSH is in
I would hope that Alfie is talking about
not Sansa. When the show runners add their own ideas, sadly, I think the changes are “good ideas” only about 33% of the time.
Clearly, he’s referring to Rickon, who will be posing as Arya and marrying Ramsay since Hot Pie is unavailable.
Come to think of it, both of these would actually make more sense than Sansa marrying Ramsay.
King Tommen,
To the contrary: I would ask if you are still living in the fantasy! He refers to characters that he’s never met.
As for the someone he’s had only minutes of screen time with, that’s anybody’s guess. But the Sansa fantasy is just silly.
Most of their “own ideas” are basically TV legs relative to the books’ fins. They just reflect the fact that to do the same thing on TV as was done in a book, it has to be done differently. In most cases, sticking to what the book did would have been bad TV. GRRM wrote a novel, not a script: and that as different as preparing to swim vs. preparing to run.
ReekReek,
We know that
It’s entirely possible he’s talking about more than one person crossing paths with Theon, though the main person he’s discussing, the relationship blossoming, that is clearly one person.
LOL The Boltons greeting someone, Sansa being in a bath somewhere, someone travelling, and random images in those “Sight” thingies are your “hints”?
Mkay…
King Tommen,
Wow, didn’t think it would actually happen, but if they do make Theon save Sansa…the awesomeness…just cannot wait. The ultimate Theon redemption.
This Sansa in North speculating is ludicrous.
ReekReek,
My friends and I are going to put a pool together for character deaths and character meet-ups, and other things. We are also a full group of Sullied readers (save for one), so I think we’re also going to set up webcams when we watch an episode to capture any FREAK OUTS that are so common when major events occur – especially since we’re not privy to all of the events anymore…
I like the idea that Littlefinger gets wind of the FArya marriage… and Sansa goes to put a stop to it – Vale style. Hooks up with Stannis. Sees Theon after the jump.
This I could get behind…
Annara Snow,
Yes, the argument is classic logical fallacy. All of the putative “evidence” is consistent with myriad general ideas.
That written, it is going to be very interesting to see what Sansa does. It probably will be the lead up to what she does in Winter
I suspect that GRRM intends the avalanche of long-overdue dynamic development for Sansa that this iconoclastic arc seems to be attempting. (The first derivative on this one will be off the charts!)
What I see as much more possible is Sansa galvanizing the Vale into doing some of the things that people like Hodor’s Bastard love so much in the Riverlands. Presumably Sansa is going to push herself as the Heir to Winterfell at some point: and if she is going to do that, then she needs to start acting like the Young Wolf’s Sister, and not as, well, Sansa Tully.
Congratulations on missing the entire freaking point of the fArya storyline: that she is “unimportant” except as a stand-in for someone of high birth and in the line of inheritance (just like the miller’s boys were), and that Theon saves her in spite of knowing that, because whether she’s Arya Stark is not the most important thing to him, it’s the compassion he feels for her as a fellow victim.
Lady Wolfsbane,
Probably not. Again, the show is following the books much too closely for something like this. The problem with the idea is threefold:
2. IF you could convince Stannis that Sansa has rebelled against her new family, then that would make Sansa a dishonorable woman in Stannis’ mind. Ned Stark explains Westerosian morality to Arya pretty clearly (in books and on TV here): a woman is supposed to support her married house right or wrong, and even against her fathers’ house if it comes to that. If Sansa can disown the Lannisters, then she cannot be trusted to not disown him. Getting Stannis (who makes Ned Stark look like a flaming moral relativist!) to bend on one thing would stretch his character; getting him to bend on two things might snap it!
3. Stannis is going to be supporting Rickon’s claim to Winterfell (and vice-versa) against Sansa’s (and probably Arya’s) claims to Winterfell. The books probably are pushing towards a Daeny vs. Aegon vs. Stannis triangle in the end: and there will be one Stark on each side. Rickon will be Stannis’ Stark. Remember, Sansa has started to evolve in the books a little: and she now sees herself as: 1) Heir to Winterfell and 2) the brave independent bastard Alayne, not the simpering dependent Sansa.
The identity of the female who would play this role has been a mystery but it ending up being Sansa is the most logical of all the options. As with all their deviations, they’ll have some writing around to do when it comes to character motivations here but I’m sure they’ll come up with something that more or less makes sense.
The non-casting of any Northern lords now makes a little more sense given that Sansa will obviously be more proactive in her mission than a non-entity victim like Jeyne Poole was. This is obviously part of a larger scheme concocting by LF and I’m certain it ties into what he will end up doing with Sansa and the North in the books. The show has simply streamlined this to get the plot running more quickly.
$100 says that Myranda will sub in for the Little Walder treatment and will meet a deliciously tragic and mysterious end at the hands of Sansa/Theon closer to the end of the season which will enrage Ramsay.
Even that “compassion” is secondary to the vestige of Theon thinking that this would hurt Ramsay. (Of course, the real impetus is
However, you are right in that it’s not about who, it is about what: empathy for another victim of Ramsay, and Theon’s loathing of Ramsay overcoming Reek’s worship of Ramsay.
(I do like it that learning about Robb is going to be a spark for Theon to come back.)
He’s obviously referring to his blossoming relationship with Fat Walda.
Wimsey,
I dont think Stannis would truly bother with the Sansa / Tyrion wedding.
If Sansa and Stannis ever come to meet, she can tell him it was a forced marriage and since Stannis is the king, he can easily dismiss it.
Wimsey,
Respectfully disagree with your comment In most cases… I agree in some cases, they were correct to get away from the books *cough* Qarth *cough*. But even in that case, the Qarth changes which the show runners made were still bad TV.
And sadly, for every Tywin-cup bearing Arya change which works wonderfully… There are 2 changes which make for AWFUL TV: Quorin Halfhand demise, actually showing so much TheonRamsay torture, etc.
The JAIME Cersei Sept rape is on D&D too. As Michelle MacLaren described in her commentary: D&D get final cut on the show… Not the episode’s director.
I’d be fine with putting Sansa in Winterfell, willing to see what they do with it. I have a hard time imagining how that would happen, or how Sansa retains the agency she gained at the end of Season 4 if she becomes a caotive of Ramsay’s…
BUT I’m not a professiinal writer and maybe D&D will pleasently surprise me.
Also, I don’t see saving Sansa as opposed to Jeyne missing the “whole point” of his storyline. I liked that he basically lied to Mance in order to save someone who is otherwise unimportant, but saving someone from Ramsay is still saving someone, still incredibly redemptive even if it’s someone who is noble, not a commoner.
The Jeyne Poole/ Theon subplot was one of my favorite story lines in the whole series, and easily my favorite part of Books 4 & 5. But I came to terms a long time ago that it would be either changed for the show or deleted entirely.
Sansa in Winterfell seems like an entirely acceptable substitute, but hey. That’s just me.
He does in the books. In fact, it’s rather a big point in the books!
But that wasn’t bad TV at all. To the contrary, it was fine TV.
Both worked fine on TV. The audience got it, and that was what mattered. Remember, the vast majority of the audience is viewing this as they get it: it is just TV->story for them. They are not traveling the second path of book -> TV, then TV->story. The TV->story (and TV->plot) trajectories here are working very well: otherwise, only book fans would be watching the show: or would have been, as it would have been cancelled a while ago!
I’ll wait for another trailer or two before believing theories like
Our beloved friend Alfie has reminded us nicely that the Sansa theory has to be taken seriously.
Of course this isn’t confirmation, but it is evident at this point. Stop living in denial people, it is happening.
Theon never lied to Abel. He never told Abel or the Spearwives the truth, but, then, why bother? There is no way that they would have believed him. Remember, Reek did not want to do this: he had to be coerced. Had Reek told them the truth, then they would have assumed (and with good cause!) that he was lying to get out of it.
I think that we are missing each other because of perception versus intent. In general actions, a “redemption” arc and a “rebuilding” arc might look a lot alike: and if GRRM had wanted this to be a redemption arc, then he could easily have used pretty much the same plot. However, GRRM (like most authors) lets us know the protagonists’ intents because he has the protagonists think those intents: and that is where the story always is in a novel. If this were like the novel Atonement, then Theon would have been thinking over and over about how to right his past wrongs. He would obsess over it to the point of fantasizing about doing it.
However, GRRM does not do that. He has Theon think a lot about the boy/man he was, what that boy/man dreamed of being, and how it was now lost to him. (He does that for all of the protagonists in Crows/Dragons: that’s really the story.) Theon is not thinking of what he did and how to make up for it: he’s thinking of who he was and who he has become: and setting the stage for thinking about who he will become. He never once thinks: “well, that makes up for stabbing Robb in the back! Now, let’s make up for *gets out list* burning the Miller’s kids. Then… crap, this is a long list…..”
Ok. I didn’t believe it at first, but now I’m 90% sure that
But if
The show is not interested in this (or not able logistically to accomplish it) and the statement from D&D last year about the story starting to contract from here on out makes more and more sense.
When they have the chance to, they will combine protagonist stories. They will not allow a 1 or 2 main characters to wallow in one location separated from everything else that is going on unless there’s absolutely no way around it.
Sansa and LF dicking around in the Vale for a season was never going to work. Sending LF to King’s Landing and Sansa to Winterfell (after a brief run-in with Brienne in the opening episode) aligns perfectly with what D&D have done in the past when it comes to their multiple storylines.
It’s why Jaime isn’t hanging out in the Riverlands, negotiating with characters that won’t mean anything to the larger story and instead being used to introduce us to the new players in Dorne.
It’s why Tyrion is getting escorted by Varys and then Jorah directly to Dany and not bothering with the multitude of new minor characters that he deals with in the books.
It’s why Brienne got to stay in King’s Landing for half the season last year before crossing paths with Arya and the Hound.
It’s why they found reasons for Yara and Theon to meet up as well as Bran and Jon last season.
It’s why we have Jaqen coming back into Arya’s story and then Mace and Meryn Trant interacting with her late in the season.
It’s why Sam is sticking around with Jon for the foreseeable future instead of taking a season long boat ride.
It’s why Davos is sticking with Stannis instead of taking a trip to White Harbor.
And it’s why the decision was made to just skip on Bran’s adventures in the cave until he could most likely come back into the story by interacting with other protagonists.
This is the pattern and has been for some time. We should be paying more attention to it.
Hmmm this could either be a good or bad thing. If it is a sensible reason for characters to meet up or is going the way the books do then that’s acceptable. If it’s forcing characters into storylines together then that’s a worry.
I’ve got to admit I’m really worried about this season. I think changes are good if they are needed to tie some things up but there appears to be a lot that don’t really seem to be needed. The Northern Storyline was great teh way it was. Hope this isn’t going to spoil it.
I’m thinking that Sam and GIlly may play more into it as Oldtown is looking increasingly less likely.
Brienne is the prime candidate for doing something different as LS and Jaime aren’t looking like they’re going to be in position and a lot of her story is aimless wandering. Hopefully she’ll give Sansa something to do this season and they can leave the North to do it’s thing without rushing Sansa up there.
The Unsullied will love this storyline, I’m sure. It will make good TV.
Book purists will despise it but who cares, they despise the show since Season 2.
Arkash,
Yes, I agree with that. He’d see which side his bread is buttered I reckon.
Also, after all, most characters on this show have changed, have had to compromise on principles, change their life paths or vision of their destiny, some a little, some a huge lot. The ones who haven’t adapted are mostly dead.
So why not Stannis? Especially with Melisandre whispering in his ear? If he wants to be the King, he’ll have to sacrifice a little to gain a lot.
“Why introduce characters D, E, F, and G when you can just have established characters A, B, and C interact?” That seems like a perfectly legitimate credo for David & Dan.
(Not to mention they would be only paying 3 actors instead of 7.)
King Tommen,
I’m 100% with you, makes perfect sense. Unfortunately few people pay attention to this, the majority just want the show to be exactly like the books even if it doesn’t work for television.
Boltons meeting someone isn’t conclusive, I agree. But a Lord Paramount and his heir wouldn’t line up in the courtyard for someone below their social rank, would they? Whoever it may be, it has to be someone of extreme importance arriving.
I don’t think Sansa will go to WF to become a victim again.
Because she WAS victim and she was abused and we saw that mostly in s2.
I know that there are some people who see Sansa only in that “victim role”, but that was only a phase in her storyline. She was an annoying girl in s1, she was a victim in s2, she was a bad liar in s3 and she was good liar in s4.
I believe that she will become a darker person in s5. I think that she will at same point be responsible for death of Robin.
But I expect that people who believe in this theory (Sansa and Ramsey) won’t stop believing until s5 starts. An that is fine. From the beginning of the show there were many candidates for role of fake Arya (Ros, Yara and now Sansa). I think that Winterfell Worker will be fArya.
Arya Stark isn’t below their social rank. The farce must be maintained, regardless of whether they know the truth. Indeed, failing to treat fArya like the real Arya would be a potential giveaway.
Of course, the other fallacy here is that this is NOT the only reason why they might be out there. They could be greeting Freys. They could be greeting lords of the Northern houses (we probably will get a Northern Chorus). They could be sending troops off to war. All of these things: 1) explain the scene; 2) happen in the books; and, 3) could be happening in the series.
But this is the definition of this logical fallacy (affirming the antecedent): just because you have “If X then a” then it’s fallacious to conclude that X is true when you see a because you always have an “If Y then a”, “If Z then a,” etc.: and there are a lot of Y’s and Z’s from the books that predict all of these things.
No, they won’t stop believing until the season ends….
Do you know, that is a good possibility. If she learns that Arya is being married to the Boltons, that could get her moving.
However, did we ever hear/read anything to suggest this?
I can tell you that there will be characters crossing paths and interacting — especially in my storyline — 1. who have never met, 2. or have had just minute amounts of screentime together.
1. Theon and Davos in WF? Or Mance?
2. Ramsey and Yara during Battle of Ice?
It’s also good news for the pacing of the second half of the season since there will only be seven storylines, the fewest since Season 1 :
The “Sansa marries Ramsay” speculation is like a zombie: it’s rising and rising again, no matter how many times it’s shot, cut, disembowled or has its limbs chopped off. (What is dead may never die?) I guess only the new season finishing will finally lay it to rest by shooting its non-functioning brain.
Or maybe it won’t – if Ramsay doesn’t die this season, we may be up for “Will Sansa marry Ramsay?” season 6 speculation. Why not? It doesn’t matter if Ramsay marries fArya in the meantime, if Sansa being already married and in hiding due to being wanted for regicide is stopping no one from thinking she’ll be marrying Lannister allies.
It is obvious that same people just can’t accept that HBO will spoil future books.
Sansa has her own storyline and I expect to see some of her TWOW material in s6. We didn’t read anything new about Sansa for 10 years, but that doesn’t mean that her story is over. Sansa will probably kill LF in s6 or s7 andd that moment need to be believable. She just can’t be victimized again.
King Tommen,
Well said sir!
TV GoT has to be much tighter then book GoT, especially if D&D plan on finishing it in 7 seasons.
Going by the show’s MO so far, I wouldn’t be surprised if they completely minimize/disregard the role of the spearwives in the WF rescue storyline or even cut them, since they’ve been ignoring spearwives in general, with Ygritte as the lone Smurfette (which annoys me a lot), and amplify Theon/Mance interactions instead.
If I’m not mistaken Feast/Dance has a total of 17 storylines……….ridiculous.
Hey, all of you ever-shrinking holdouts to this inevitability: Your “these people are crazy” list now includes Sue. In my experience, betting against her when it comes to what the show will do with its storylines is not a healthy pursuit.
Just saying…
I’d like everyone’s opinion – the ones that do think Sansa WILL
Wimsey,
Sansa/Stannis would still be
If D&D can take Theon’s rescue of a totally innocent person and NOT alter it entirely by throwing in Sansa… I can deal with it. As long as it isn’t Myranda! 🙂
First, Stannis would recognize that he doesn’t have the authority to “dismiss” a marriage. He’s all about the law which is very clear on how marriages are annulled. Second, from what we know about Stannis’ thoughts on Sansa, they aren’t good. Maybe if they’re all at the Wall Melisandre could possibly see something in her flames but more than likely, Stannis will not trust her or be inclined to do anything for her. This is why I’m really confused about her heading North. Who will she be with? What would be the plan?
BTW I can’t see the descriptions for the comment interface buttons on Chrome 🙂
Sansa doesn’t have to marry Ramsey to go to Winterfell. She can go to Winterfell as a representative of the Vale. Hell, she might even take Robin with her (as he is Lord of the Vale). She doesn’t have to marry Ramsey or take on any fArya role to be in that place at that time, and still interact with Roose/Ramsey/Theon/Stannis/Whomever else.
Why are you guys making this a false dichotomy? There are more options available besides:
-She goes to Winterfell as fArya and marries Ramsey
-She doesn’t go to Winterfell at all
The Hound,
Dany, Jon, Sam, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Reek, Davos, Melisandre, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Brienne, Aeron, Victarion, Asha, Euron, Arianne, Qyentin, Areo Hotah, Arys Oakheart, Barristan, Jon Connington. This is the list of POV’s from the top of my mind. would be hell trying to hire more actors LOL.
Guys, guys, “never interacted before” is Mance and “minute screentime” is Greatjon Umber. Obviously.
Oh god, Sansa in Winterfell is happening, isn’t it?
I do think a Sansa/Theon relationship in season 5 could be amazing. But I think the overall Northern plot suffers if that comes at the expense of a Manderly/Umber type role in Winterfell. Mance in Winterfell I’m ok with losing.
King Tommen,
Yes, the show likes to combine storylines, but they won’t do that just because they like to combine storylines.
Last season, some people speculated that the Stannis will be in the Vale and had same arguments as you.
If we speak about combining storylines in the North I can see Jon and Stannis sending Davos in WF to rescue Arya, and Mance will go to Hardhome instead. And there, in WF Davos will meet with Jon Umber (show version of Manderly?). That is kind of merging they like to do, but this with Sansa? No.
Elmo Tully,
Yup…..what a mess. I’m glad D&D will radically change that, and for those who don’t approve, you guys are funny.
Lady Wolfsbane,
Whether Theon rescues an “innocent” or not is moot. It is never an issue in the books. It does seem like a lot of people read this in between the lines, but it is not in the actual lines. (Indeed, to the contrary, I read the opposite “between the lines”: fArya was a beta-bitch who engendered little sympathy: but that was equally moot.) If GRRM had wanted us to think that “she does not deserve this” affected Theon in anyway, then he would have (and certainly should have written some italicized lines to that effect in either “Ghost of Winterfell” or “Theon Greyjoy.” He did not.
(And, no, authors cannot be held accountable for what readers put between their lines. As Tolkien, Rowling and others have noted, people put the damnedest things between the lines that authors write!)
It is called logical fallacy. As you note, there are myriad ideas that predict what we have seen in the trailer and elsewhere. As many of them are much more consistent with the books, we should given those idea higher prior probabilities.
I’m thinking it will be more like this.
RosanaZugey,
I am thinking the same thing. It would be crazy if they had Sansa make the Boltons some pies if you know what I mean, that would be a really nice touch to the new side of Sansa. Pies for everyone!!!!
I suggest you read the quote again. He never said that Theon meets both people he’s never interacted with and people he’s had minute screentime with, only that kind of thing this happens in the show in general, “especially in my storyline”. Nor is it clear if the “blossoming” comment refers specifically to Theon + someone, or to storylines in general, which is what the previous sentence refers to (and that’s certainly true, what with Jon/Stannis, Jon/Mel, probably Davos and Sam as well in any number of combinations at the Wall in the show version, Tyrion/Jorah, maybe Dany/Tyrion in the show, possibly Yara/Stannis if they use her this season, and probably Theon/Mance or whoever they throw into the WF rescue storyline, say Davos, which would be the kind of change the show may do without ruining the story and flying against every logic and sense…).
LOL, nope.
Yep.
Interesting.
I can see this happening if she really doesn’t have story from TWOW. Robin Aryan and his “nursemaid” as wedding guests. It will be interesting to see Sansa as a guest at her “sister’s” wedding. I expect that she would do something “badass” against Boltons but in disguise.
I wonder if this show will be remade maybe in twenty or thirty years. I might still be alive to see it. And the seventh book should be coming out around then too. Sansa marrying Ramsay would be the worst change I can imagine for this show. Why cant we just have Sansa do her storyline from Winds of Winter?
Disagreeing with Sue eh? Interesting tactic.
King Tommen,
Is she a saint?
Stannis doesn’t really have any thoughts on Sansa. He just wants to convince Jon to take legitimization and Winterfell, and is ranting at Jon for not doing it – and he’s not a super nice or sensitive guy. Why would Stannis have bad thoughts about her? It’s not like he doesn’t know she was a captive or thinks she married Tyrion out of her own will. Whatever he is, he’s no idiot. He is well aware of Sansa’s situation in KL just like everyone else is, he just doesn’t care. If it suited him, I’m sure he’d support her and stop calling her “Lady Lannister”… I’m pretty sure he wasn’t calling Arya “Lady Bolton” when he went to the mountain clans…
But yes… he has no authority to annul a marriage. Not to mention, LF would not side with Stannis in a million years.
They probably are: at least up until the point where Sansa learns that
I will be that Sansa’s Season 5 storyline will be dedicated to doing with Sansa what Season 1 did with Daeny. GRRM (almost certainly!) will be doing that with Sansa at the outset of Winter. Then: she chooses a side.
Crabber’s Son,
Sansa probably can’t do her Winds plot now and still have enough material for seasons 6 and 7. Or maybe her Winds plot is just heavily tied up in internal Vale politics that the show doesn’t care about.
Yes, how shocking! How dare anyone disagree with Sue! #shockhorror #unacceptable
You’re really getting desperate, aren’t you?
It’s going to be pretty sweet when this is 100% confirmed. I hope you don’t jump off a cliff when it happens, you seemed to pretty emotionally invested in this not being true, to the detriment of all evidence present.
Elmo Tully,
Some of these can’t be said to be different storylines though. If you group them together, depending on how you do it, you end up with just (!!) 13-15 storylines. Hardly anything at all.
Annara Snow,
I do believe he was not being serious. That I need to explain that is tragic
Wimsey,
Aegon is cut. 😀
Being a “bitchy” little girl who mocks another girl doesn’t make her not-innocent. Especially if we’re talking in the context of ASOIAF where most characters are murderers, rapists etc. Theon murdered multiple people including two children, but most people still don’t think he “deserved” what Ramsay did to him.
No, the tragic thing is that he’s being serious. Though it’s also really funny, especially with statements like “all evidence present”.
Stannis is a moral absolutist. He is not one to lie or even dissemble. He also is someone who pretty clearly has real problems with women acting independently: with the sole exception of Melisandre, of course! It is as Donal Noye tells Jon Snow: Stannis is so rigid as to be brittle, and Stannis will break before he bends. (Most of Davos’ storyline arises from trying to deal with Stannis’ absolutism.) Now, you might call this idiocy, and so might others: but if so, then Donal Noye is telling us that Stannis can be an idiot in that Stannis has a very hard time being pragmatic. (We already saw that with the War of 5 Kings: had Stannis been willing to bend at all concerning Robb Stark, then Stannis probably would be sitting on the Iron Throne: but Stannis “idiotically” refused to be pragmatic and treated Robb as every bit the enemy that he treated Joffery.)
So, it is not so much that Stannis has bad thoughts about Sansa. Stannis probably just does not take Sansa (or any other woman not nicknamed Mel) seriously or envision her acting outside of her capacity as Lady Lannister. (The Asha chapters from Dragons provide a lot of insight there, too.) Moreover, given Stannis’ strict sense of honor and given what we know of Westerosian morality, he should consider a woman disloyal to her married house to be of low character.
(Heck, Stannis probably would think this about Arya: however, as he intends to make Arya a widow soon, Stannis is assuming that he will get her unthinking support of whichever lord she marries. To paraphrase Jon’s observation, Arya is just a chess piece to him: that she might have any free will in the matter is NOT part of his equation!)
At any rate, it seems that the books are going to have
So please clarify this
Sansa will be going there as “Sansa Stark”? Or posing as someone else?
If you believe she will be going in with her real identity , They just murdered half her family, what would make them not kill her right away? All of a sudden Starks lives matter to them?
And how would it make any sense for Sansa to make such decision? Oh I just escaped being a Lannister captive now I want to be a Bolton captive! From my dad killers to my brother/mother killers!
What???
If posing as someone else( which might make a bit more sense), who would that be?
Annara Snow,
Stannis may be aware of how the marriage came about but he won’t have modern ideals about how someone must save her from the Imp and put an end to the marriage. Westeros has accepted Tyrion and Sansa because that’s the way of things. The marriage may be annulled but no one, least of all Stannis, is screaming about the injustice of it on Sansa’s behalf. Not even LF is playing up that angle for dissolving the marriage. Stannis will no doubt expect Sansa to do her duty to her husband regardless of how the union came to be. After all, he has a very black and white way of looking at things.
I would like to know how the Sansa as Ramsay’s bride believers believe it will happen? For it to work, Sansa will have to become a victim again, something that her final scene last season was supposed to signify had ended. It would require Littlefinger sending his prize to a person who he would have to know is a psychopath. And finally, it would require Roose to go against his alliance with the Lannisters, who want Sansa dead.
I just don’t see it. Granted, it is hard to come up with a significant character Theon has spent a ‘minute’ amount of time with other than Sansa. Although, I don’t even remember those two having any scenes together. D&D are going to have to pull off a miracle for this to make any sense.
And in addition to this, Sansa is still married and can’t marry anyone. Not can she get annulment while she’s hiding incognito. But somehow, this keeps getting forgotten…
Readers or characters? Theon might get sympathy from the readers, but not from the characters. (Other than himself, of course!) It is what the characters (and Theon in particular) think that is important: and the key point here is that Theon doesn’t think “the poor girl doesn’t deserve this! If only someone could help her!” The closest he comes is to think once that a man would help her: but he’s not a man anymore. (Indeed, at one point GRRM makes fun of the whole “damsel in distress” when Theon thinks that this is almost like a story: but instead of heroes and maidens, there are only traitors and whores!)
Now, GRRM could have built on that one thought, and had sympathy/empathy for fArya’s plight be the basis for Reek->Theon. GRRM did not do that. GRRM could have built on this differently and had Theon think repeatedly that saving fArya would make up for some of his prior decisions. That would be the redemption arc. However, GRRM did not do that, either. GRRM could have built on that one thought and related ones by having the “man’s” (Theons) thoughts win out more and more over the “wretches” (Reek’s) thoughts: and that is the path GRRM chose.
My comment on the “beta-bitch” is simply a reminder: authors cannot count on different people reading the same things between the lines. Authors cannot even count on their audience reading anything between the lines at all. (On the other hand, many authors are dismayed by what readers slip between their lines!) This is why good authors avoid leaving things in between lines!
Also, why would the Boltons endanger their very profitable relationship with the Lannisters by taking in someone that the Lannisters want dead? Oh, sure: eventually they will stab the Lannisters in the back: but not yet. The price on Sansa’s head is quite high (according to Season 4, anyway!): that would be dragons that they want.
This!
in Winterfell is happening folks! And I’m excited!!!
Sansa in Winterfell doesn’t automatically mean she’s marrying Ramsey.
I think uniting the North and the Vale is very much a part of her WoW plot, especially if you’re sticking to LF’s scheme in the books. The Vale and the North can be united through an alliance between the two. In the books, this supposed alliance would have happened through Sansa’s marriage to HtH. In the show, it can be accomplished through a meeting between the representatives of each House (Roose/Ramsey in the North, Sansa/Robin in the Vale). In either event, the same outcome is achieved.
I’m also inclined to believing this is possible because it can also be used to incorporate a lot of the underlying relationships/character developments in the books. If Sansa and Robin are in the North, she will protect him. That would tie back into her book character in that she becomes a sort of mother figure to Robin (without all of the ‘sleeping in-between her breasts’ business). If Sansa has an interaction with Theon (as Sansa), that would bring him back to (or at least, closer to) remembering his Theon identity and making him bold enough to do something courageous. You can reach the exact same outcomes as the books do/will do without introducing a lot of other characters or storylines.
Suddenly Littlefinger’s line to Sansa from the trailer is clarified a bit. Seems to me the two of them will be playing a dangerous game with the Bolton clan.
Voice of Reason,
Yes, add that to the list of questions. I really don’t believe this will happen. If it does, then it would undermine Sansa’s final scene and entire season 4 arc. It just makes zero sense. If this happens, then it proves D&D did not plan this while writing her final scene in season 4. I would further believe that Sansa(as Allayne) and Sweet Robin would go to Winterfell as guests, representing the Vale. At least that could be defended as making some sense.
I’ve been saying that since we heard about “Winterfell Worker,” and especially since we saw the young lady who was cast in that role. Who knows, it may not turn out that way, but until it doesn’t, that’s the possibility I think most likely.
Sansa-Ramsay-Theon: Again and again…LOL!
Total denial of this fanfic fuckery (unless she gets kidnapped).
Other possibilities for Theon: Mance, Stannis, Brienne, Pod, any # of Northern Lords, Nymeria, Yara, Shitmouth….
Lady Wolfsbane,
I’ll be the opposing party to the question you raise, if that’s ok with you! It is difficult to see that wedding for a couple of reasons, while not impossible (because let’s face it in my experience there’s no “impossible” in TV, sometimes to the detriment of realistic storylines and coherent narrative telling.. but still). Anyway this is why I think they won’t go that route (until they prove me wrong):
1. Sansa is married to Tyrion, there should be an High Sparrow annulment or something. Busy season for HS.
2. Sansa probably knows Roose participated in the RW. Can you imagine her showing up willingly (no Lannister gift here), as the meek wife of Ramsey, son of Roose who stabbed Robb and took the North for himself as a Lannister ally? Hmm, maybe it’s just me.
3. Alfie Allen says the relationship “blossoms” with the character he has spent little time. In order for that to happen, Sansa will have to believe him when he says he didn’t kill Bran and Rickon. What are the odds of that happening without real proof?!
So unless of course we’re talking Sansa undercover, moving towards Winterfell as the most cunning double agent the world has ever seen, I have some difficulty seeing her as
. But no doubt, if Weiss and Benioff pull that on off in a believable matter, there might even be an Emmy for them. Forget about small steps of developing this character, who needs those in GoT. She totally can swing this.
Annara Snow,
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Yes, the fact that she is technically married to Tyrion is an issue. They would need to devote time to explaining why an annulment is possible (lack of consummation of the marriage). Isn’t there another issue: she is still “wanted” for Joffrey’s murder…at least by Cersei.
Since we know that LF goes to KL, perhaps he convinces Cersei (and whomever else) to put aside those two stumbling issues.
Isn’t it possible that she goes to WF to legitimize Ramsay’s marriage to fArya (whoever that will be) essentially taking the place of Manderly and Lady Dustin?
King Tommen,
Excellent, insightful post. And it does a great job supporting your theory. I may not be 100% convinced that your theory is correct, you have certainly stated your case. Kudos!
I’m not sure what to believe.
Wimsey,
Possibly everything you just wrote that you seem to think I (and others) are ascribing to Theon’s emotional state I happen to NOT believe. I don’t think Theon’s rescue was particularly much of an even conscious decision. It’s perhaps a chance to START a redemption arc. I STILL think it would be ridiculous to replace your Beta-bitch (still totally innocent as far as I’m concerned, we’re talking about in the world of GoT here) with Myranda. I will try not to burst out laughing at the screen if that’s what happens.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I still can’t understand how people believe this could make any sense. It almost is like saying the role of fArya is more important to the story than whatever is planned for Sansa. Having characters converge is great, but only if it makes sense within the story. Brienne and the Hound was great. This just sounds terrible and contrived.
I just don’t understand what Littlefinger’s game plan would be in the Sansa to Ramsay/Winterfell scenario….’
And why the ‘disguise’ if he is going to hand her over to the Boltons?
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
In how many episodes does she appear? What we are looking for is someone who serves no other obvious purpose and who is in multiple episodes.
Indeed, if they labelled one of the stand-ins “Jeyne Poole” in season 1, then we could add her to the list!
Why would the HS do that? Sansa Lannister is wanted by the crown for treason and murder. She still is suspected of being complicit in Joffery’s death. She is the wife of one traitor and daughter to another.
Which is only evidence that they are sticking to the general plot in the books: it is zero evidence for who fArya is. Indeed, it is only consistent with it being fArya: it might be someone else.
What Hodor’s Bastard suggests is much more consistent with the story (which, from Sansa, probably will be about killing Barbie and and letting Boudica be born). There are ways to do this that retain the general plot structure of Crows/Dragons, too. Give those ideas higher odds than ideas that deviate markedly from the plots or story in the Crows/Dragons book.
Why are people against this? Are people really mourning Harry the heir an farya. This is such an obvious idea that people have been speculating about it since season 1. Almost no-one believed there was going to be a fArya.
As for the lannister aspect, I don’t see what’s so hard about it. They can basically use tywin death as an excuse to ignore the lannisters. They could say she was not married the northern way. They could say she was a hostage. Etc. Etc.
This is an obvious move.
Voice of Reason,
You said it much more concise than I did. Kudos to you.
I do hope that if she really is at Winterfell in S5, it will be as the Vale and LF’s envoy at best, as someone suggests above.
Tormund’s Woman,
I LOVE it. But of course I’m a loon. I like thinking about all this stuff, this is the best talking point in quite a while. Hmmm… maybe the relationship that blossoms is
Hehehe..
EDIT: I spoiler-tagged it just to make sure.
house snow,
What does Littlefinger have to gain? How does this make sense for Sansa(being a victim again) after her arc last season? This has nothing to do with Harry the Heir or Jeyne Poole being missed, and everything to do with not making sense for Sansa and Littlefinger.
Crabber’s Son,
Makes more sense than Sansa marrying Ramsay. And would tie into the whole “Avenge them” line in the trailer.
Sansa either regains winterfell or he gains an alliance with the boltons, whom the show has indicated needs allies.
I just figured he was talking about Stannis…
Lady Wolfsbane,
IT MAY HAPPEN, LADY WOLFSBANE!!! Targs took two wifes, their own sisters. Why not keep it all in the family for the Boltons?! #RamwaldaFTW Don’t knock that crackpot! LOL
I’m not going to state how the show will definitively explain this (because they could literally go about 5-6 ways) but for those asking, here’s one way they COULD do it.
1. LF reveals to Sansa (like in the books) that his ultimate goal for her is to have her rule the North. We have no Harry the Heir on the show and the show needs to get his plan underway quicker than the books do so he lets her in on this plot after they shoo off Brienne in the opening episode.
2. To convince her of this as an option he says that the only way to have her legitimately rule the North and get her revenge on those that have harmed her family, she needs to come out of the dark to maker her rightful claim as Sansa Stark. But the Crown isn’t going to allow this outright since they consider her a traitor.
3. LF then tells her that he has negotiated with the Crown via raven whereby he has informed Cersei that he has finally located a Stark girl as he promised he would and convinced Cersei to annul the marriage to Tyrion (on account of no consummation) and that in exchange Cersei has agreed to have her wed to Ramsay.
4. The reason Cersei would agree to this is to produce a legitimized heir to the Boltons to rule Winterfell (this is more or less Sansa’s only value to the Lannisters/Boltons and the original reason why she was married to Tyrion). After this heir has been produced, then Cersei has insisted that the Boltons are free to dispose of her in a suitably mysterious and nasty fashion. But they basically have to play nice with her until the heir is produced thereby giving LF a window of opportunity to make his eventual move. Perhaps this is a promise of the Vale forces eventually moving on the Boltons or something less overt. Who knows with LF?
5. All this will be shared with Sansa with the promise that she’ll be safe while she’s producing the heir. This will be in order to establish herself in Winterfell without fear of reprisal.
All of this stuff can be quickly thrown off in a quick exchange of dialogue much like the Roose/Walder “so you’ve got Winterfell now? Yep. You’re the new Lord of Riverrun? Yep.” fashion from S3.
6. Once handed off, Sansa perhaps wants to take matters into her own hands because of her thirst for revenge against the people who killed her mother and brother and working with Theon, orchestrates some “accidents”. Myranda could play the Little Walder role of a Bolton ally found dead under mysterious circumstances.
Again, I am not saying this is how it will happen. Too many variables to know any of this for certain. I’m just simply laying out one way it could possibly be done.
You could do things differently. I don’t rule out the possibility of LF simply telling everyone that Sansa is Arya to avoid having to get around the “Sansa is married and a traitor” issue. It creates its own narrative roadblocks you need to write around but I guess that could happen.
Additionally, LF could ensure Sansa’s safety by having an inside man there to watch over her. You could even make Myranda his longtime undercover agent (much like the Kettlebacks are in the book or Olyvar on the show). She could reveal herself to Sansa once inside and work with her and Theon to undermine the Boltons. We don’t really know her backstory on the show and her being a former prostitute in LF’s employ that he sent to infiltrate the Bolton’s as part of his long con could be an option.
I could give you a number of other ways they could go but the point is that there are always ways to write around things to make them fit. It should never be looked at in absolute terms that a certain path “just can’t” be taken. If you explain it well enough, you can do whatever you want.
Alayne Stone will not play a victim. She will play a strong willed character. Who better to manipulate Ramsay Snow then then person who was once betrothed to Joffrey?
Reek is the only one who knows who Alayne really is. This will replace the Reek/Jeyne pool interaction. Reek won’t be saving Alayne on the show however as discussed above, so his catharsis will be a struggle with himself to regain his identity with Alayne reminding him of who he is as the driving force.
I do believe the cliff jump will occur once Winterfell Sansa sees how hung Ramsay is and is like “oh my, fuck revenge, I’m all bout the D”.
Wow, this thread is crazy!
Alfie Allen says a few very vague sentences that can be interpreted in all kinds of ways and this fansite blows up with people arguing about different possibilities.
I love it! Lol…
King Tommen,
Yup there are literally hundreds of way to make
in Winterfell work. Much more compelling than seeing a random nobody we’ve never met before.
The
interaction could be one of the greatest things about Season 5!
Part of me thinks it would be too dangerous for Sansa to go to Winterfell, given she’s been saddled with some responsibility for Joffrey’s death. At the same time, with Tywin dead, Roose probably isn’t as concerned about staying on the Lannister’s “good side” the way he would have been were Tywin still alive. Tywin’s death really compromises the strength and reach of the Lannister’s. LF would know that, so while there would still be many risks in sending Sansa there, the risk is reduced with Tywin no longer int he picture.
My guess, if Sansa does indeed go to Winterfell, is she first learns from Brienne Arya is still alive, and then she learns from someone
. With no knowledge Arya isn’t even on the mainland of Westeros, there’s no reason to think Sansa wouldn’t believe it, so north she goes. I can’t imagine LF wouldn’t see some advantage in that play, although I won’t even try and speculate what that would be.
Crabber’s Son,
Tyrion Pimpslap,
YES YES YES, Sansa playing the role Manderly works too!!!
There’s already theories about it :-]
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2qwdvb/spoilers_all_sansa_stark_will_assume_the_role_of/
Remember, Sophie Turner described her traumatic scene as a 6. Any scene with Ramsay would be a 10.
Lady Wolfsbane,
My apologies: I genuinely did not mean to do that! Let me clarify.
1) “Beta-bitch” is my subjective feeling about the character. That does not make it “correct” or mean that this is what GRRM wants me to feel. The only thing that it proves is that different readers have different subjective feelings about this character. (This also proves that I do read things with subjective emotions: I “like” and “dislike” characters just like anybody else!)
2. As a corollary, authors cannot and should assume that they can invoke feelings in readers that match those of the character. Authors like GRRM know that different readers are affected differently (and often in completely opposite ways) by the same passages. GRRM has to tell us what they are feeling.
3. GRRM did not tell us that Theon feels anything one way or the other about fArya. My point is not that the feelings are A or B: for all any of us know, Theon feels that fArya does not deserve this; for all any of us know, Theon never ponders the issue. And that is my point: if GRRM intends us to think that something is motivating Theon, then it is GRRM’s responsibility to write that. GRRM does do this for his other characters. Instead, GRRM writes other feelings as being Theon’s motivations (as well as sheer
Shouldn’t we assume that what an author writes is what he/she wants us to think about a character?
Young Dragon,
Any scene is a bit much. Theon shaving Ramsay was probably a 6 or lower on the “traumatic scale”. Also Ramsay has had non-traumatic scenes with Roose. Given that
will probably bring a small host of swords with her, this should be enough to keep Ramsay in line for the most part.
Alternative to my fear that Sansa may crowd out the Northern plot, maybe having Sansa there was the only way they could justify spending enough time in Winterfell to really do it justice. That will have to be my hope.
I wonder if they are still going to say “based on ASOIAF” during the credits? Because it should say “Fan Fiction”
Wimsey,
I have no idea in how many episodes “Winterfell Worker” appears. Does anyone?
King Tommen,
Well, you’ve given this a great deal of thought but there are a few problems. Cersei will never go along with letting Sansa get away with her part in killing Joffrey. She could give two damns about getting the North under her rule. In fact, she already has the North under her rule with the Boltons who are a great deal more loyal to her than Sansa would ever be. Also, LF could place a man in Winterfell with her but one man will be no match for Ramsey’s entourage. It’s a risk I doubt LF will take. Finally, it puts Sansa in a weak position (wives always are the possession of their husbands) and that doesn’t make sense for her arc at this point. I just don’t see this playing out the way you’ve described.
Crabber’s Son,
I’m listening, sadly….
Trojan Horses…here we come!
King Tommen…I respect your assertiveness and thoroughness in describing this clusterfuck. 🙂
Rygar,
I always figured part of the reason Ramsay snipped Theon was because he was jealous of what Theon was packin’. 😉
King Tommen,
You… kind of convinced me. Kinda. Good job, because before this interview and this elaborate argument of yours, I absolutely dismissed the theory. Now… I’m not so sure.
I’m still 100% sure she won’t take Jayne’s role as a victim and as Ramsay’s wife. But she may go to Wintetfell in some other capacity.
How about the basically featured extra role of “Winterfell worker” is *gasp* a Winterfell worker? Someone’s gong to be needed to bathe and primp Sansa for Ramsay. You would need to have a female Winterfell worker to do this, no?
It’s certainly possible that’s *gasp* all she is, but we know virtually nothing about her, not even whether the role is, indeed, just “basically a featured extra role,” or not. You’ve obviously put a lot of thought into your theory and are quite convinced of it, and you may be right. Then again, you may not be. Time will tell.
Hodor’s Bastard,
This is far from what I want to happen but it does seem that Sansa may be going to winterfell and this is the only way I am okay with it. I think Sansa baking pies could be traumatic lol.
Wimsey,
Thing is what will Brienne do up there? Unless she takes Asha/Yara’s role? I dunno it’s getting a bit busy/messy for my liking! Personally, I think she’s best served in a storyline with Sansa to keep both of them busy/flesh out their characters more until the rest of the storylines catches up to them. Still think Blackfish may be the one who will take on the LS role for Jaime and Brienne’s arc’s conclusion but I really don’t know what they’re thinking with regards to the use of characters anymore.
I don’t think there’s any need for Sansa in Winterfell at this point. Let her and Brienne do something in the Vale. Moving her northwards this early makes little sense when there’s already a lot going on up there. Don’t see why LF would send her up there already when it serves no purpose. He’s worked hard to obtain the strategic position of the Eyrie and to get Sansa out of KL and under his control/tutorage. Why send her into danger to reinforce the Bolton’s claims in the north? Would have to be a very convoluted plot turn indeed!
I think the fArya storyline may just be left. It’s not really needed. Ramsay can marry Myranda ( either as fArya or not). She is pretty much a proxy for the Bastard’s boys at this point in time and the wedding is pretty much just a device to get all the Northern Lords/certain characters to Winterfell. I think Theon will end up killing Myranda which will serve the duel purpose of ramping up the tensions in Winterfell and pushing Ramsay further over the edge and also giving him reason to try and escape. If he needs to escape with/rescue anyone then the Winterfell worker can be used . Still think having her as Beth Cassel would work well as you have the link to Jory and especially Rodrik and what Theon did to him ( the point where Theon became “truly lost”) which may be the jolting point to awaken Theon inside Reek. Guess we shall see. Hope they don’t tamper with it too much as think it’s great as is.
Outrage watch
If that plot change is true and I’m positive it is then there’s a huge possibility that Sansa will lose her cherry this season ~~
Let’s sit back and enjoy watching all SanSan fans’ (and purists’) brains simultaneously exploding. ~~
I’m basing the “featured extra” assumption off the fact that her CV and IMDB history indicate that she isn’t really suited to to much more than play a featured extra. The show typically casts even minor roles with a certain level of experience. I would be shocked if a role that (even if there’s barely any dialogue required) Theon’s story hinges on would be given to an actress of this station. That doesn’t fit in with the way the show does things.
King Tommen,
Yes yes, all of this is fine. You can justify Jaime and Dany as a couple in s5 if you want, but there is one big problem you don’t see.
After s5 comes s6 and Sansa’s storyline from TWOW. And if she in s5 ends up with Stannis she obviously can’t return to her real story in s6. So Sansa as fArya won’t happen.
And how about Sansa is Sansa and not same kind of fArya?
mau,
Who says she ends up with Stannis? Lots of things could happen to her at the end of this season and I’m not going to speculate on where things go for her from there. Again, the show has a habit of taking characters off their book paths to a certain extent and then getting them back on them later on. If whatever she’s supposed to do in TWoW is necessary, then she can still do that on the show.
Examples:
-Jon goes to Craster’s, ends back at the Wall for the battle at Castle Black.
-Bran gets caught at Crasters, escapes and makes it to Three-Eyed Raven
-Yara goes to rescue Theon at Dreadfort, comes back to Pyke/the North
– Stannis goes to Braavos, still ends up at Wall to battle Mance
– Melisandre visits the BwB, ends up back at Dragonstone
etc. etc
It’s a really fun an interesting discussion, but until we’ve got proof, I won’t join the Sansa-Winterfell theory. It COULD be true, but in that case I’d loose a lot of respect for D&D. Pretty much for all reasons listed above on why it would make no sense. They’ve cut out plots, they’ve altered plots slightly, but they haven’t done something that makes so many logistic errors yet (the teleports included). Cutting out (House of Undying, A VI), lengthening (Arya&Hound, the Wall) and altering (Gendry, Talissa) are not the same things. I’m more inclined to believe that they skip the wedding, or just have Ramsay marry someone else. That would be an alteration of smaller significance, just like the previous ones. Also, LF said they would travel in the Vale, so that’s what they’ll do, right?
And here’s my biggest point.
King Tommen,
She doesn’t have a CV or an IMDB page. Not that I’ve found. Unless the lack thereof is what you’re referring to.
I still don’t buy this fSansa business in the slightest btw.
I’m sticking firm in my belief that Sansa will not be Ramsay’s bride. It’s not happening. She may wind up in Winterfell, but not as Sansa. That’s the final word on this.
I don’t really have in depth knowledge of the heirarchy of peoples bannermen, but does anyone know how high up the scale the Boltons were when they were in the Stark camp, would Roose have been to winterfell for major events or whatever, and would he have enough sense to recognize Sansa on sight ? Just wondered if that could have an effect on the Sansa marrying Ramsay theories.
Greenjones,
She did. They aren’t up anymore. There was nothing on them pretty well.
Because show won’t deviate from the books as much as you think.
Because Theon will end up with Stannis and maybe Ramsey will be killed at the end of this season.
Because Sansa has her own storyline and your outline is ok, when you don’t think about the future.
But when you start thinking about Sansa’s endgame her marriage with Ramsey just isn’t part of that because they will not sacrifice Sansa’s story for nothing.
But fine, think whatever you want. Soon you will see you’re wrong.
Yes, they have cast many minor roles with actors who have a more accomplished resume. They have also cast actors, particularly younger ones, who don’t have much experience.
As I’ve said, you could be correct. Maybe those who think “Winterfell Worker” will be
will end up being correct. Perhaps neither of those theories will be correct.
King Tommen,
Her Casting Call Pro, you mean? Aye, it was taken down or something since her casting was first gleaned from it. I’m with you in that sorts of
That she would be playing someone other than the Jeyne Poole role does not mean that other characters will be though.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I agree. She might well end up in Winterfell, but certainly not as Jayne, fArya or Theon’s damsel in distress. If anything, I’d imagine her role to be more along the lines of Manderly or Mance, who are secretly plotting against the Boltons.
mau,
That assumes that Sansa’s Winds plot is something they want to put in the show. If she spends half the book politicking throughout the Vale to build support for her and Harry, I doubt the show has much interest in that. And if Littlefinger’s eventual goal for her really is the North, this may just be a fastforwarding of that.
And you believe that Sansa’s marriage with Ramsey will be just a filler? All of your examples are just fillers or “remainder of existence” scenes.
They don’t need filler now. Because there is enough story, before they used ASOS in s3 and s4 and they needed same extra scenes for Stannis and Yara and Jon (in s4 before Mance come). S5 is much different.
That is a hell of a good question. My best suggestion would be to have her take the place of Abel’s spear wives. That’s a dart thrown at a dartboard in a general vicinity.
Of course, “what will Brienne do?” is a good question on its own. Her stuff from Crows did little to contribute to the story, yet GRRM gave her 8 chapters of it! The show has made very clear that she’s working for Late Catelyn, not the Starks, not the Tully’s, not the Lannister’s: so I have a hard time seeing her take on the BwB plot role. And if she did, then what would be the story?
Color me flummoxed: but I was always flummoxed about what they’d do with Brienne’s Crows material. (Have her sing “Road to Nowhere” to a lute would get dull after a few weeks. Actually, after a few minutes.)
Sansa is not going to spend all of Winter doing that. However, I do expect that the early parts of Winter will have Sansa rapidly evolving into a serious Player: and that is what I expect to see her do this year.
The only thing that we know for certain about Littlefinger’s plans regarding Sansa involves beddings. It might involve weddings: perhaps LF wants to be Lord Regent of the North through Sansa. However, it’s also possible that Sansa is so intertwined with Catelyn in his mind that he just wants her.
The “what does Littlefinger want?” has been an open question for over a decade. Even Varys confesses to not having a clue what LF’s game is, and that says a lot. I have yet to read a satisfactory hypothesis explaining all of LF’s doings! After all, he started all of this long before he met Sansa, and without any real hope of winning Catelyn. Maybe LF is doing it all for a bastard son of a Blackfyre…. 😀
The problem we run into at this point is that if Sansa and Theon’s stories to do connect in S5, that there is very little explanation as to what either of them will be doing for the bulk of the 10 episodes.
I certainly realize that we will never have 100% of the casting down for the season and perhaps one or two very minor roles slip through but historically speaking, certainly by February every one of note is accounted for.
I assume people are still not holding out hope that Wyman Manderly or Lady Dustin are secretly waiting in the wings, correct?
And even when it comes to the very small inconsequential parts that leak out slowly over the course of filming (Baratheon general, Wildling elder, street toughs, pit fighter, slaver, Dornish ship captain etc), we have exactly zero stuff coming from the Vale or Winterfell (unless “Winterfell worker” gets you super excited).
Even last season we knew about the guard at Bloody gate who talks to the Hound/Arya. This season, we’ve got absolutely zero from any character that could possibly interact with LF and Sansa in the Vale. And to add to that, the show has made a point to send LF to King’s Landing. Why do you go to that trouble unless you’ve got Sansa set to interact with other main characters?
Why no Wyman Manderly? Why no Jeyne Poole substitute? Theon/Ramsay/Roose are stuck in Winterfell for the entire season. They need to bounce off other characters of note. Who does that leave?
There’s only so many explanations you can come up with that don’t involve concluding that the 2 storylines are connected. And they’re getting more flimsy by the day.
I’m not sure how you read what Alfie Allen just said and don’t come to the same conclusion. Look at the people tying themselves up in knots just trying to present other options (that really don’t fit).
There is too many “if”. But if they are not interested in her storyline in Vale, they would cut that. They cut Jaime’s storyline in Riverlands in s3.
Only one line from Walder Frey was enough. He simply said Freys hold Riverrun. And that’s it. They cut Jaime’s chapters from AFFC with one line.
I think that LF wants to unite North, Vale and Riverlands. I believe that he will use Sansa the same way Varys in books wants to use fAegon. “Pretty face” and puppet that will get much support from lords in Riverland, Vale and North.
Because she is Stark and Tully. Many Tully-loyalist from Riverlands will fight for her.
But that is just my assumptions. We don’t know that. But I do know that she must have some story in TWOW. If this isn’t the case Martin would kill her long ago.
IF Sansa indeed ends up at WF, I see this as far more likely than any Sansa/Ramsey pairing. And I think that many of you are reading FAR too much into Alfie’s comments. He has shown himself to be very vague and even misinformed (see his interview in the previous post).
Having said that, I would dearly love to see Sansa as the avenging angel ala Manderly and the pies. 🙂
Like Balerion, I’m reserving further judgment until I can see another trailer. Soon, please?
Wimsey,
If you assume that Sansa TWOW role will center around fAegon than it is even more evidence that they might alter the plot drastically. Since Aegon is cut (I don’t buy your “introduce him in season 6” theory) her storyline will need changes/shortcuts.
Not saying that Sansa will marry Sansa but King Tommen has convinced me that it is plausible and I see the chances at 70/30 that she will and up north.
Well, let’s HOPE she doesn’t marry herself, because that would really be going off the rails. 😉
Then again, if she did marry herself, at least it’d be for love. 😉 lol.
I think that theory “Sansa in WF as wedding guest” is possible.
That will be so powerful, great and intense. She as Ramsey bride absolutely not!
Sansa as wedding guest in WF, in her lost home, with traitors and killers of her family, with her false sister,…. It would be great. And some small revenge at the end. Poisoning Myranda?
She can leave WF, before the battle with Stannis and return to Vale to continue her storyline from TWOW in s6.
Just because the only option you see is for Sansa to take on the role of
doesn’t mean that’s the only possibility. You are so convinced of your theory, instead of leaving yourself open to other possibilities, you dismiss/discount other theories as not really fitting and people tying themselves in knots to come up with something else. All of this, from everyone, is just speculation…their opinions. We won’t know with certainty until we see it.
Looking back, it seems many people think it’s possible Sansa goes to Winterfell. From there, it seems like the main contention is, if she goes, what she’ll do there. Some seem to think she will, without question, be assuming the role of
, some seem to think, no, whatever she does there, she will not be
. I am firmly in the latter camp.
Actually, that is exactly what you are doing. Your explanation is the epitome of Procrustean! Again, what you are doing is a classical logical fallacy: you see one explanation to explain things (despite the complexity of it) and you ignore the myriad simpler explanations (all consistent with the book, no less) for things.
King Tommen,
We do not Sue!
Everyone’s story in WoW is going to be affected by Aegon! He probably will be the single biggest plot point in the book: most of the story will emerge from how the main characters react to him, either from afar or from up close.
P.S. At the risk of being pedantic, it’s not a “theory.” It’s not even a hypothesis. It is simply a prediction. I maintained from the start that if he was going to be on the show, then it would not be until Season 6, and thus the fact that he’s not in Season 5 did not mean much. )
P.P.S. Misuse of the word “theory” irks me…. 🙂
King Tommen,
For all we know he could be meeting Stannis or someone else.
Moreover, technically Theon *was* present with Sansa in episode 1 so…
Wimsey,
…No. A forced marriage while a literal prisoner of the Lannisters? Why the *heck* would that make Stannis consider her “Lady Lannister”?
EDIT: I assume that book-Stannis says that just because he’s not sure of the whole story regarding Sansa. Moreover, there is some legitimate concern that if Sansa is made ruler of the North, the Lannisters will use her fake-marriage to Tyrion as an excuse to invade the North, even to *directly fight* Sansa’s forces. By the same logic, even Robb didn’t want to name her as his heir, albeit when she was a prisoner. Stannis is a legalist but he isn’t an idiot, I don’t see her fake marriage to Tyrion as that big of a concern in the grand scheme of things.
SerCountryFriedSteak,
…what specifically did MacLaren say?
There have been plenty of major roles given to young inexperienced actors. “And introducing X as Y.”
If guessing this stuff has anything to do with probabilities, then a “Winterfell worker,” played by an actress that looks remarkably like TV’s Arya, should make the least surprising possibility the most likely. And obviously so, no? Whatever Alfie said wasn’t all that specific.
While I’m not sure if this technically meets the standards of “Procrustean”….we know so little about full casting details for Season 5 that I wouldn’t put this as a “lock” that Sansa is fArya. “Leaning towards” is the MOST I would generously give it.
Off-Topic Otto,
Dude, even Selyse Florent was originally “played” by an extra. IMDB crediting means nothing – they’d recast a role after a four year absence and no speaking lines.
Of course the most likely candidate has to be Sansa. Because of course he couldn’t simply be referring to the more likely characters that Theon actually meets in the book.
We know that LF is in KL this season. Do we know – or can we guess – what episode(s) it occurs? Early or late in the season?
There is very little chance that the book ‘fake Arya’ role will be taken by Sansa of all people. Has everyone forgotten that she is in hiding and wanted in connection with a regicide? Also very publically already married. How is Roose planning to explain how she turned up at Winterfell and instead of handing her over to Cersei, he married her off to his newly legitimised son?
Also – do you really think that, after emphasising her gaining some agency and learning to ‘play the game’ last year, the writers are really going to put her in a scenario of needing to be rescued from the clutches of another sexual sadist?
mariamb,
Episode 7, if I remember correctly. I don’t have evidence at hand, just my faulty memory. Others may be able to provide a source, or correct me.
Just had an epiphany. We have heard that the high septon may get chased out of lf brothel. What if his time in the brothel is a favor in exchange for ANNULLING sansas marriage.
Luka Nieto,
I agree. Count me as one that is starting to believe that Sansa in Winterfell could work this season.
The winterfell worker cast announcement showed us an actress that looks a lot like Maisie and so my guess is that the marriage plot will be kept with Sansa and Theon as witnesses. This could also be the meaning of the “blossoming relationship” as they will certainly recognize each other.
Why would that make any different to someone like Stannis? This is a point that comes up several times in the books and on the show: Stannis is extremely rigid regarding honor/morality. This prevents him from doing pragmatic things. To you or me, then, yes: Sansa should be an obvious ally. But not to someone like Stannis: either Sansa is a Lannister (boo! enemy!) or she’s a woman willing to work against her own house (boo! dishonorable!).
The other thing to remember is that Westeros is a world where women (and men) routinely are forced into marriage against their will. (It still happens in our world in some places.) Whether an individual chooses to be with their spouse or not does not seem to affect what is considered honorable/dishonorable behavior in that marriage.
In a way, it is no different from the mentality of using laws forbidding wives from testifying against their husbands to prevent women from providing testimony in spousal abuse cases. Yet that was done until fairly recently!
Her marriage to Tyrion is very much “real”, no matter how many times you want to call it “fake” (which, btw, why ARE you calling it “fake”?) That it was forced doesn’t make her any less his wife, or Lady Lannister.
This dismissiveness of their marriage as something inconsequential (or something that can be easily set aside) is perplexing to me as the text (IIRC) gives no indication that either of them were ever having thoughts of setting it aside (while they were still together), nor does anyone else in the narrative treat it that way either (i.e. inconsequential or something that can be easily set aside). On the contrary, in at least two separate POV chapters (Tyrion’s and Jamie’s, I think), their marriage is referred to as something that only the gods can undue (which tells me that they either stay together, or one of them dies).
That they are married means something, and should not be so easily overlooked.
Luka Nieto,
Thanks.
mariamb,
Greenjones corrected me. If he’s right and Mylod directed him in King’s Landing, that’s either episode 3 or 4.
Yes. Sadly, there have been other one-liners that have zapped book characters and events from the show. :/
I am very wary of this. Is unity truly LF’s goal? LF is the “King of the Ashes” who believes “chaos is a ladda.” His trip to KL is going to be loaded with careful indirection and dubious misinformation. I think he will be working the QoT for his benefit (possibly informing her of his plans up north, with a bit of gamesmanship involved) and contributing to Cersei”s undoing, in addition to a certain annulment.
I hope Sansa doesn’t play pawn to his plans too much longer. If the WF/Northern Conspiracy idea and Bolton infiltration lunacy are indeed a product of LF’s mind, I will immediately distrust it. He coveted Cat but he didn’t care much for the Starks. I want something to severely backfire for LF (like the Lysa situation almost did) allowing Sansa to become her own entity….but I can’t see Sansa going off on her own (willingly) either….yet. She ain’t Queen Nymeria.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Until now I hadn’t given much thought to LF being in King’s Landing beyond what it would mean for Sansa, but now I’m getting really excited about it. It’ll be great to see him interact with the King’s Landing characters again, and maybe create some more chaos.
Wimsey,
Was thinking that being a washer woman would give her the ability to poke around to find “Arya”. She’s quite conspicuous though! Plus what would Mance have to do if she’s already the snake in the nest so to speak? I mean there’s no reason she couldn’t be there just fail to see how it would add to the story as I imagine she’ll go up there find out it’s not the real Arya and leave..perhaps getting recon for Sansa and LF? I dunno, it’s all quite tenuous. I think it’s possible that Mance may kill Myranda and Theon (if he doesn’t kill her himself) gets the blame therefore has to run. Brienne killing her doesn’t really fit with her character.
I’d like to see some sort of exploration of her perhaps combining elements of the LS stuff with her wanderings and the sympathising of her character at Maidenpool. Just off the cuff thinking but maybe Blackfish takes her into custody when she reveals she’s got a Lannister sword/pass from Tommen. He’s probably the one character that could still make the link and feel the anger for RW so perhaps he takes her to Sansa for her to dispense justice and LF and/or Sansa spare her for whatever reason. During that time she can experience all the ridiculing and disgust at her being what she is with the haughty Lords of the Vale looking down on her and being disgusted by her. For me, that was critical to her character development when, in Maidenpool all the knights presence reminded her of how she was bullied and mocked whilst growing up. Made her a lot more sympathetic and focused more on her determination which I think the rather 2D she’s a girl who beats men up show version needs.
So … people have some thoughts about this particular topic, huh? 🙂 It’s been a long time since I’ve seen a thread get this big this fast. Seven Hells.
I’m still not convinced that Sansa will go to Winterfell. But I will say that this interview is the most interesting piece of potential support for that possibility I have seen to date. At the very least, I find it far more compelling than parsing a single frame of trailer footage and comparing wood panels on doors. Alfie Allen isn’t blowing smoke when he says that characters who haven’t interacted with one another before in any significant way will cross paths in his storyline this year. There’s no reason for him to say something like that when he could just give the same non-answer that everyone else does when they’re asked about their future storyline (“It’s bigger! Better! More exciting!”) Theon will interact with at least one notable character this season who isn’t Roose, Ramsay, or Myranda. Sansa is far from the only person that could be, as there are numerous characters from the books and the show who could conceivably cross Theon’s path. But she’s definitely a candidate, and perhaps a more likely one than most.
All we have is speculation at this point, but there’s a reason for that. In every other storyline, we have ample casting spoilers, filming spoilers, or book knowledge to provide us with a decent outline of how the season will be structured. We barely know anything about either the Vale or the Northern storyline beyond the first two episodes or so. If we had heard so much as one significant casting leak or filming report from either storyline, this debate wouldn’t be happening. Fortunately, with seven weeks to go before the season starts and multiple trailers still to come, it’s unnecessary to treat this like a done deal for either side. There’s plenty of time for all hell to break loose later.
Luka Nieto,
Moreover, I wonder if LF’s journey south is a show-only thing or are we really getting TWoW-spoiled? Yikes!
RosanaZugey,
“Real” and “fake” are not the best terms to apply to Sansa & Tyrion’s marriage. The marriage is “real,” but it is subject to annulment because it was never consummated. Perhaps “incomplete” or “unfinished” would be closer, but it’s legitimacy is certainly in question. Their feelings about it are immaterial.
D&D explicitly said that LF wants the throne.
mau,
The House Baelish ‘History And Lore’ on the s4 Blu-ray alludes to the Iron Throne being Littlefinger’s ultimate goal too.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Part of me thinks LF going south means a lot of his, Sansa and Briennes stuff will be filleresque this season. That’s not meant to be an insult (as I think the time could be taken to give Brienne and Sansa some much needed character development) but they’re all so out of sync with the other plotlines they need to wait for the others to catch up. With Bran already taking a season off, I don’t think they could have done it for those three too. My prediction is that what they do this season won’t massively push them beyond where they should be at the start of TWoW.
In fact, I don’t think any of the characters will go much beyond what we already know as I think that’s why we’re getting these sample chapters. So I’m going with Sansa sample chapter released = We get the idea of where she’ll be. No Sansa chapter released = She won’t have moved into TWoW territory yet. I think that makes sense?!
Hodor’s Bastard,
Doubt it. At least not to the extent you may think. I’m sure his interactions with people in King’s Landing and whatever he may be doing there will take some inspiration from TWOW, but the timeline just doesn’t correspond enough so that he can be doing the same things in Season 5 and TWOW, you know what I mean? The political situation in the city is completely different.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Always thought LF’s goal was to destroy the current system of rule. So I think he wants to rule but not as King but in a sort of Oliver Cromwell/Lord Protector role (for you history geeks!). I think he carries a chip on his shoulder because he couldn’t marry Cat because of his low birth and that his child with Lyssa was aborted for the same reason. Those haughty Tulleys have lot to answer for! I think system change is his ultimate aim with him presiding over it. Of course, I could be completely wrong!
mau,
I think most believe LF covets the throne. No one in Westeros will ever support that lofty goal. The only throne he will ever assume (besides his temporary Vale highchair) is the one in the privy.
I think LF will retake the position of Master of Coin and he will lead Cersei to a conflict with the Iron Bank. She trusts him, and he loves chaos.
Hodor’s Bastard,
It really doesn’t matter what he wants. One step from victory, Sansa will kill him.
I don’t really agree with your interpretation of Stannis here. While he’s certainly rigid and unbending, he’s not a robotic idiot. He opposes Sansa’s potential claim to Winterfell in the same way that Robb opposed it – in order to stop Lannisters from getting their paws on Winterfell through marriage.
Furthermore, Sansa wouldn’t be “working against her new house”, as you posit Stannis is likely to think, because there is a strong case to make that the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion was at least in the “grey zone” if not outright illegal. While you are correct that daughters are regularly forced into marriage, her hand is, symbolically at least, her father’s to give. Sure, it is not unusual to see a victor or conquerer take a woman from a defeated household to wife as “spoils of war”, but one would think Stannis has enough brain cells left to differentiate between the former and the latter. Had the Lannisters somehow gotten their hands on Shireen and married her off to Lancel without his approval as her father and the head of their house, do you really think that Stannis would begrudgingly accept this as fait accompli and expect his daughter to obey Lancel in all matters? I think not.
Luka Nieto,
You know, since I heard about LF’s KL escapade in S5, sometimes I fool myself into believing that LF wasn’t really at that wedding….he wisked off to KL instead. That assumption allows for a fair amount of time to pass between Alayne II & III. 🙂
(Actually, wasn’t there one Sansa chapter and only two Alayne chapters in AFfC?)
Hodor’s Bastard,
Her chapters are classified as Sansa I, Alayne II and Alayne III. A bit strange, but that’s how it is.
mau,
That does make sense.
The biggest question is: Will LF succomb and
I’ve allowed for the possibility that she’s in Winterfell but perhaps not as Ramsay’s bride. She could be there as herself or posing as someone else. I think it’s more likely she’s there as Ramsay’s bride but it’s not like I’m completely inflexible on other options.
But the theory is borne out of evidence presented by casting, footage, interviews and what the show has historically done as opposed to some grand wish by me to have it happen or some kind of emotional attachment to the storyline or character. This possibility didn’t even occur to me until all of the filming/casting/interview evidence pointed towards it. I had no inclination or ambition to believe this would be the case before then.
Conversely, I find taking the hypothesis that Aegon HAS to arrive in S6 and then walking back all other storylines this season to fit this hypothesis is more the condition you’re describing.
Please provide a logical storyline in S5 for Sansa where she is in the Vale and LF is in King’s Landing based on the evidence at hand and Theon’s Winfterfell story (which I assume has Myranda posing as Arya in your scenario). That at least can get me something to work with.
The only way I’m seeing Sansa marrying Ramsay is showing up with an army at her back to smash him.
Rygar:
Hah! That’s why the BwB and Sansa/LF need to mingle! Thoros could put a glamour on her that would meet LF’s specifications.
Mr Fixit,
I don’t agree Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion could be considered illegal, however I do agree with your assessment of Stannis. While, yes, he is quite rigid, there are examples of that rigidity giving way, most notably in his decision to go forward with killing Renly, and we all know kin-slaying is not looked upon particularly favorably, and in his treatment of Jon Snow. Jon may be the son of Ned Stark (as far as Stannis knows), but he is a bastard. If Stannis was quite as rigid as some would have him, I think “bastard” would outweigh “son of Ned Stark.”
If the reaction from Alfie Allen comments are anything to go by
Book readers are in for one hell of a season
Im going to have more fun watching them than the actual show lol
Not sure why Mance and Stannis aren’t mentioned as the people running into Theon who haven’t met before. He is clearly talking about the show, not the books. Mance and Stannis fit that. Everyone’s favorite theories for some reason are stuck on Brienne or Sansa running into everyone, everyones imaginations are going a bit crazy honestly. Best to just wait and see where it goes. They have said numerous times that the books are their guidelines and that’s what they want to follow as closely as possible. They’re not purposely trying to do their own spin, they just make neccessary changes to fit the 10 episodes of television is all.
Luka Nieto,
I believe that LF will convince Cersei not to show weakness in front of Tyrells (because if she wants to pay off debt to IB she will need Tyrell’s gold, Lannister’s mines ran dry) and he will advise her to refuse IB.
And then when Kevan becomes king regent, Mace Tyrell will take position of the Hand , and Kevan will send him to Bravos to improve the situation.
Sounds like an Uncle Bungle concert.
Rygar,
Comment of the year!
rex,
I saw someone mention they, as Sullied, should tape themselves watching the show, so their reactions to departures from the books could be recorded (I’m paraphrasing). I loved that idea. In fact, it made me think of ANGRYGOTFAN, and how the video of him would be him lobbing projectiles at the television, while cursing at the top of his lungs, the whole time. 🙂
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Stannis must have quite the insecurity complex over those shadow bastards he created from his dalliances with Mel!
I can’t wait to see book purists reaction. xD
And Linda’s * reaction! It will be hilarious!
*Linda from westeros.org
The best evidence against Sansa going to Winterfell and/or marrying Ramsey: It doesn’t happen in the books, thus far.
The best evidence for Sansa going to Winterfell and/or marrying Ramsey: It doesn’t happen in the books, thus far.
Hodor’s Bastard,
🙂
(Also, how could I forget how that which killed Renly was created. Stannis schtupped Mel, although, technically, that would require a certain rigidity 😉 )
The Sansa in Winterfell speculation sounds like the dumbest bullshit ever. If true, Benioff and Weiss could really screw up the show, and they’re already on their way doing so with all these shenanigans, such as Jaime the rapist and the juvenile obsession with Theon’s penis.
And no, I’m not a book purist. Some streamlining and cutting down content is probably necessary for television, and overall the show has been very entertaining, but the dumbing down, over the top sleaze et al is cliche.
I now believe that Sansa will be in WF as a guest. Boltons will invite Robin Arryin because they need allies against Stannis, and LF can’t refuse that invitation because it will become suspicious and then Sansa will want to go to see her sister.
I can see those scenes in my head. It will be great. Just like Arya and Tywin and even better. Sensea’s interactions with Theon, fArya Roose, Ramsey even.
And just before Robin, Sansa and other people from the Vale leave WF, Sansa will do something that will cause chaos in WF. Somehow killing Myranda or someone else(that traumatic scene?) ?
After that we will have Battle of Ice.
This speculation is quiet interesting to see. I don’t find it likely that Sansa will be going to Winterfell but I can’t say for sure. It depends on what her end game is if that make sense for her. If she where to go to Winterfell (as farya or as a representative of the Vale) she’s either gonna end up as a prisoner of Stannis or stuck in Winterfell with the Bolton’s over the winter. Both alternatives seems like totally different from where her character is going in the books. Of course it could be that D&D thinks that GRRM’s story for Sansa in the last two books sucks and decides to do something completely different with her.
Everyone doing lovely debates/rants/ forming camps, etc. This is glorious! All probably pointless and silly – but still glorious!
I’m horrified how quickly I’m converted to the
Soapy drama right out of Downton Abbey… hehehehehe….
Tormund’s Woman,
Three heads of the zombie ice dragon… Ramsey, Fat Walda and Roose. Muwaahaahaa….
Wimsey,
OK, wow I’m very sorry myself. Me defensive much I guess? 🙂 But I guess I feel
It is considered acceptable for Kings to “pardon” bastardy. Thus, if Stannis “absolves” Jon of this, then the taint (to use Melissandre’s word) is removed. That means that Stannis can be as morally absolute as he wants and honor & decorum still are maintained.
On the other hand, Sansa is a Lannister in Stannis’ mind: and Stannis has heard all he needs to hear about Lady Lannister’s claim!
Stone Cold Batard,
“And no, I’m not a book purist”
are you sure because you definitely sound like one based on that rant
At least wait and see if any of this is true before coming after d&d with pitchforks and torches
Allen says “or have had very minute amount of screentime together”. That’s a pretty specific qualifier that doesn’t match up with the characters you’ve mentioned. It does, coincidentally enough refer to Sansa and Theon (and pretty much no one else on the show in Theon’s storyline that I can think of).
So unless you’re going to choose to ignore that part of the statement or attribute it to someone else outside of the storyline (which seems to be what some here are going to do in order to brush off the comments), then that’s why the quote is meaningful.
It’s not something you’re going to say offhand because it’s so so specific. And if you then try and figure out who he could be referring to, the choices narrow down to Theon and Sansa and not much else. I don’t get why this isn’t a giant neon arrow pointing towards this unless (as I see some poster has done above) your contention is that Allen is blatantly lying or doesn’t understand his own storyline because he’s daft.
Well, upthread you will see that Wimsey, myself and some others tried to inject that into the conversation but lunacy has quickly dominated! 🙂 (lunacy can be more fun)
any man who must say I’m not a book purist is a true book purist
– Tywin Lannister
Can’t someone just make a list of all the people Theon has shared a scene with? Don’t think its been that many and half of them are dead now
It’s not even a question of Stannis’s rigidity, but of the function marriage has in Westerosi society. It is essentially a form of social contract between two noble houses, an affirmation of their political ties. A woman passes from under the protection of her former guardian (usually her father) to her new guardian (husband). At the same time, she becomes part of her husband’s house first and foremost – though even here there seems to be some leeway as women from exceptionally powerful families appear to retain more overt ties to their fathers’ houses. Marriage is, after all, a political institution, and a shrewd player of the game can force her will beyond the usual limits.
In Sansa’s case, it is obvious that the marriage lacks one important “ingredient”: the consent of Sansa’s legal guardian and/or head of her house. While this prerequisite, as you correctly point out, isn’t strictly needed, it does violate the spirit of the marriage as a political institution, especially, I contend, from Stannis’s point of view. He may consider the marriage as legally binding, but it wouldn’t make him think that Sansa owes loyalty to her new house. As Davos so helpfully put it, a noble has both duties and rights. Since the rights of her father’s family weren’t respected when marrying Sansa to Tyrion, the Lannisters can’t expect their marital rights (bride’s loyalty among them) to be respected either.
Wimsey,
Yes, Kings can pardon bastardy (can’t see that word without thinking Edmund’s monologue in Lear), but unless I’m forgetting something, he hasn’t done so.
Alive
Tyrion
Jon Snow
Balon Greyjoy
Yara
Ramsey
Roose
Bran
Rickon
Osha
Jon Umber
Arya?
Sansa?
Mr Fixit,
While we may be arriving at it a different way, it seems like we agree Stannis wouldn’t necessarily view Sansa as loyal to the Lannister’s, nor a traitor for being disloyal to them. As someone already pointed out, they never consummated the marriage, and that, in itself, could be grounds for seeing the marriage as invalid.
Come on, guys. Let’s not give any more credence to this childish Book Readers vs Show Watchers nonsense. There’s wankers on each side of the divide: Don’t be one of them.
Hodor?!
book readers=/= book purists
mystery solved !!!
mau,
There was a really good crackpot theory on Hodor being the most important character in the series I read recently but I’ll be buggered if I can remember it!
D & D gonna derp.
Translation please. I am unfamiliar with the finer points and delicate subtleties of the English language.
Ohhh, haven’t read the comments yet, but I can just imagine the posts concerning fSansa surface.
They never crossed paths isn’t a big deal, because book readers know this.
What is intriguing is that he will cross path with some characters he has shared a minute amount of screen time previously with.
This can only be a relatively few number of characters, that are still alive, considering Theon’s arc in the show. Remove the obvious; Jon (Goes to Hardhome so we don’t have a Theon/Jon confrontation); Jaime (to far away), Bran (nope), Arya (Nope, she’s in Braavos), Rickon & Osha (Nope, they shared a lot of screentime), therefore.
Now the only remaining possibilities; Sansa (WF reception, banquet), Greatjon (Robb’s tent), Benjen (Banquet), and Jeyne (at same table in banquet)
Jeyne season one
mystery winterfell worker Emma
All of the above are possibilities, and Theon hints at more than one, so my gold dragon is on both Greatjon and Jeyne. Like many posters have specualted, Emma looks a lot like the extra who played Jeyne from season one.
Mr Fixit,
Al thinks D&D are hacks. ‘Derp’ is a term used to describe someone acting or doing something stupid, at least I think. I don’t speak troll.
Oh, I know. A bit of counter-trolling on my part, I’m ashamed to admit. 😉
Tyrion Pimpslap,
It seems like Pimpslap has been elevated to my personal translator.
So cumsprite I am afraid you’re fired!
tyjon,
Wow, hadn’t really looked at a photo of this “Winterfell worker” before. Congratz, you just restored my faith in D&D. They may just call her “Winterfell worker”, just liked they called Ramsay “Boy”. She could definitely be FArya (don’t think it matters if she looks like Jeyne or not though, but she looks enough like Arya).
TorbofThrones,
Good point, she does sort of look like Maisie, and that’s why Jeyne is selected in the books. Show Jeyne could have stayed behind in WF, and this actress plays that character.
Perhaps someone with decent photoshop skills can tamper with Emma’s pic, hair color and compare.
As for Sansa, LF would absolutely never allow Sansa anywhere near the crazy Bolton’s, even in disguise.
So I may have uncovered something pretty cool. Granted this is a random tweet but it’s by a legitimate makeup artist that’s situated in the UK and has her own site and a fair number of followers.
It’s also from mid-September in the middle of GoT shooting for the Northern storyline. It’s also not photoshopped, altered or anything weird like that. I found it on my own just checking out Twitter.
Here it is (very exciting if true):
https://twitter.com/katesfxmakeup/status/513073074091335680
No, Stannis has not done so yet. However, it’s something completely within bounds of the morality system to which Stannis adheres so strictly. Given that Stannis is involved, I would look at it like this: Stannis doing X is not a case of moral flexibility, but instead demonstration that doing X is consistent with Stannis’ morality/sense of honor.
That possibility is mentioned in the books, if I recall. I think that they mention that a potential problem is that Sansa has to be able to prove it: and as Tyrion is not available to corroborate her story, that could be a problem. LF does have marriage plans for her (spoken and otherwise): but he might be planning on Tyrion’s death.
Don’t read the one about Grenn & Pyp being the other two heads of the dragon. That was mine: clearly I screwed up….. 😛
King Tommen,
Nice find !
Damn, if that’s legit that’s great news !
King Tommen,
Damn, how did that slip through the internet unnoticed by fans.
King Tommen,
Ha! Amazing. Hope that’s true. Don’t see how it would be false, to be honest. No reason to lie about it, right?
Also, that may be who Alfie was talking about after all. We’ll get some Northern lords, then. But of course, people who say “we’ve heard about every casting news and returning character already!” will just incorporate Umber into their argument and keep on as if nothing had happened. But oh well, I’ve talked about that enough.
King Tommen,
Wow! If that’s true there will be lots of happy fans.
King Tommen,
You made my day. Toward Last Hearth we shall go!
OMG! I knew it! Jon Amer as Wyman Manderly! It is great and so logical for the show.
As I said a few weeks ago, D&D will not leave any loose ends.
In D&D we trust!
That is something that is being completely ignored in the Sansa marries Ramsay idea. There is no way LF would go along with this: he covets Sansa for himself. He also should know things about Ramsay, as he (like Varys) does his utmost to collect information about people.
The more I ponder this, the more I wonder if
King Tommen,
Sherlock himself would be proud of that find!
Fingers crossed Clive is back. Think the Greatjon could be a great replacement in Wyman’s role plus if Rickon and Osha are at The Last Hearth then it makes White Harbour and Skagos more cuttable. It’s all coming together!
He’s had his ear bitten off in a fight since he last appeared in GoT. Be pretty amusing if they worked it in perhaps as a wound he picked up during the War of the Five Kings?!
It kind of aligns with Cogman last year taking the time to respond to a question about the Red Wedding from a fan in pointing out that show-Greatjon was definitely not at the Red Wedding, referring him to S2 supplemental material to explain what he’s up to.
I’m not sure you bother with creating an explanation for a missing character unless the plan is to reintroduce him at some point.
This also helps to link back to the “Rickon went to the Umbers” plotline and if you’re going to send Davos on his Rickon-mission later, getting the necessary info on his whereabouts from the Greatjon would be useful.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Honestly, we should’ve known this was coming from the moment Rickon was sent to the Umbers (also, there’s the fact that the producers have repeatedly clarified that the character is alive.) I mean, we kinda knew, but some of us were still expecting some Davos and Manderly action only a few months ago. We should’ve all known the Greatjon would take up Manderly’s mantle. And you know what? I’m not even mad. He was great in season 1.
It will be so epic that man who declares Robb Stark the King in the North will have that “North Remembers” speech !!!
OMG OMG OMG!
I’m a fanboy!
Hodor’s Bastard,
If so, then this might explain Allen’s quote, too. They did share brief screen time together. I wonder if the Greatjon will take Manderly’s place as the “face” of the Northern Chorus. I doubt that people will really remember an incidental character from 4 years ago: but (as I noticed in my annual binge watch!) he played it pretty well and he probably could do a good job with what needs to be done as a “chorus head” on the show.
Wimsey,
Well, you know from our past jibjabs that I love when secondary characters come back to make a real difference in the storyline! 🙂
King Tommen has served his people well this day.
Luka Nieto,
Just to clarify, I’ve always maintained that casting news on brand new characters and casting news on returning actors/guest stars are 2 completely different animals.
The latter is infinitely more difficult to pin down and we can often get into the season itself without knowing about a re-appearance. The former, historically we’ve been 99% done with at this point of the process.
Luka Nieto,
I distinctly remember them saying that they were heading to The Last Hearth but didn’t fully believe it as wasn’t sure if it would follow the book direction or not plus a lot of things could have happened on their journey there. If true, then this is one of those changes that is both needed and well done. Streamlining but remaining true to the original idea.
My question now though is what is Davos going to get up to? Will he go and treat with the Greatjon or may he even take Mance’s place at Winterfell?
King Tommen,
As I have said many times, that argument is not valid, because it basically remains the same whether new castings are revealed or not. You see, we only know the likes of the Waif, Varamyr Sixskins and Lollys Stokeworth are being cast because of the leaked casting calls months ago. That leak didn’t “have” to happen. A leak is not like other kinds of casting announcements; it could have just as easily not have happened, and many of us would assume all those characters wouldn’t feature in season five (especially Varamyr.) We still don’t know who plays any of those characters, so without the leak we wouldn’t have heard anything about them yet. Similarly, it was reasonable to expect that the Choosing of the next Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch was bound to be simplified and that we were never going to meet Denys Mallister and Cotter Pyke. We only know of Mallister being cast because of the actor’s unfortunate demise —yet there is still no sign of Pyke, who is just as likely to turn up, since his role is pretty much equal to Mallister’s. Before the leaked script summary, many assumed the Kindly Man wouldn’t be cast (or that Kevan and Lancel wouldn’t come back, for that matter.) We are just a few months from the premiere, yet we haven’t got actors pegged to any of those leaked characters. If not for The Watchers on the Wall reporting on it a while ago, we wouldn’t even know who was going to play Maggy… who we also wouldn’t know would be in the show at all if not for the casting calls.
My point being: it’s only logical to conclude there may be plenty of new characters we know nothing about, because their casting calls were not leaked and the actors haven’t been announced.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Now I’m more excited about this storyline than I’ve been in months!
I think this.
Davos is smuggler after all, and they need to “smuggle” fArya. In WF he will have a scene with Umber and that North Remembers speech, and lord Umber will tell him that Rickon is in his castle.
For those interested, the Season 2 supplemental material on the GoT Blu Ray indicated that the Greatjon’s absence is explained by the fact that Robb tasked him with liberating the Riverlands from Lannister control (Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge specifically) while Robb pressed his armies into the Westerlands.
In the show-universe, that’s the last we know of his whereabouts and we definitely have Cogman confirming he did not attend the Red Wedding. This allows him to be pretty much anywhere for whatever purpose the show needs him for.
Luka Nieto,
mau,
It’s certainly possible, then the domino effect means we hae to ask what happens to Mance?! Maybe he goes with Davos to Winterfell or perhaps heads to The Last Hearth to back up the Umbers? Maybe he goes north with Jon or joins his army to Stannis’?! Who knows!?
TheTouchOfFrost,
Mance will go to hardhome?
King Tommen,
It’s great that they bothered to explain their absence in supplemental material. Casual watchers wouldn’t even think about it; since us obsessives are the only ones who care about that sort of thing and watch the Blu-Ray extras anyway, it was the perfect place in which to fit that information.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Mance may follow his book plotline. Or maybe there’s no switcheroo by Mel. The Davos thing was just wild speculation, so who knows.
Jon Snow is going to Hardhome to negotiate with wildlings.
And who is better to negotiate with them than King beyond the Wall?
Mence is going to Hardhome.
I’m 100% sure.
mau,
Possibly, maybe Tormund accompanies Stannis?
Luka Nieto,
Hey we’re having fun speculating if nothing else! 😛
Great find with the Greajon! Fingers crossed that this is what Alfie meant.
I gotta say that after Sophie made that comment to the effect of Sansa’s (moral) future being uncertain after this season, I was really thinking that her being Farya was really unlikely.
And now I have a theory- maybe Greatjon is the person who the Boltons are greeting- they could have fill Manderly’s role in swearing allegiance in exchange for the safety of his family (could even have a reference to the Manderlys as a nod to readers).
And if the Greatjon is the person Alfie was talking about, he’d be perfect to give the Hooded Man’s lines about how low Theon has fallen.
Hodor’s Bastard,
And I do not hold that against you! I certainly do not object to doing things like this: instead, my objection is going out of the way to cram incidental characters back into the plots.
As I noted, I doubt that Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber will remember him well (if at all). However, Mantle did a good job of pulling off a nearly-but-not-quite over-the-top character in Season 1.
That written, I do wonder where he’ll be. Probably not at the Hearth: hiding Mantle’s return is one thing, but hiding Natalia Tena’s return would be a bit more difficult. (She was off doing other projects last year, but that doesn’t preclude a return).
As for Rickon not being on Skagos, well, unless him riding atop Unicorns is somehow critical to the actual story of Winter or Spring, I doubt that it will be too important…. 🙂
TheTouchOfFrost,
Yes. I think the story will be very clean. Davos will go to WF to rescue fArya, Mance will go to Hardhome to help negotiations and Tormund will go with Stannis.
At the end of this season we will have Battle of Ice, and Jon Umber is going to kill Roose Bolton, he will stab him in the heart just like Roose stabed Robb and Jon Umber will say: THE KING IN THE NORTH! THE KING IN THE NORTH!
And the circle will be closed!
https://twitter.com/katesfxmakeup/status/513073074091335680
this just came up on the forums
Wimsey,
It’s easy to reconnect the character with viewers, in the previously on GoT montage.
Just have a few 4-5 sec clips of Mantle’s Greatjon. My vote…
Greywind biting off fingers, Tent argument and “King in the North”, that should suffice.
BTW: Concerning Mance, if he plays important part in WInds, he stays, if not, another one bites the dust.
Greatjon semi-confirmation is fantastic. I think he could take kind of a combined Manderly+Mance role. Leading the northern resistance and negotiating with Davos, while also using Mance-like tactics to stir up shit in Winterfell to further his cause.
mau,
Something like that! Be interesting to see if they kill off Roose or Ramsay first. I think one of them will live a little longer, jsut because the books/show suffer without a good antagonist. Then again the Northern Storyline may have to tie up relatively quickly if it’s to be involved with the Whitewalker invasion!
Yes. ih he isn’t important I think he will be killed in Hardhome.
Not wanting to piss on anyone’s chips but is she definately talking about GoT? She may have been saying she’s doing his make up but just referenced that he’s been in GoT. Hopefully not but gonna wait for official confirmation before I allow myself to get fully aroused! 😛
Jordan,
Nah, Roose isn’t in the center of reception line. which is reserved for the one the reception is occurring for. Umber reception = Roose center, farya = Ramsey center. Bolton’s would sneak Emma out of WF and have her arrive with an escort as you know who. Another possibility however unlikely, but would be cool, is the reception is for the Forrester’s, and since Ramsey has been the intermediary.
Not to be negative, but do we know if the makeup artist works for the show? I’m hoping this is true. While it’s not Manderly from the books, the Greatjohn can certainly fill a similar role, and the TV audience will recall him from season 1.
I feel pretty confident that Davos will stay by Stannis’ side on his march to Winterfell this season. I think there will be a conversation with the Greatjon near the end of the season that gives Davos the Rickon-mission for S6. I have no idea under what circumstances this conversation will occur but that’s my best guess.
Hmm.. Yes. If Boltons are defeated this season what will happen in the North in s6?
s7 is for WW.
Maybe in s6/TWOW the North won’t be that important.
They will put Rickon as lord of WF, and many believe that Stannis will be somehow involved in the Iron Islands plot because he have Yara and Theon.
And when you think about “villains” of this story:
s4 – they killed joffrey and tywin
s5 – boltons
s6 – Walder Frey, LF?
s7 – Cersei, Euron ? and night’s king ofc
Exactly. That would suffice to remind viewers. (The scene when he bellows “the King in the North” gives me chills.) I love when secondary characters re-appear, especially when it is unexpected.
Completely agree about Mance but I imagine that his story line in the show will continue to differ from the books.
“Clive Mantle in GoT and guess who’s going to be doing his makeyupy”
She said in GoT, not from GoT.
mau,
She also wrote ‘makeyupy’.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
So what?
dupe
mau,
‘Of’ or ‘in’. ‘Make up’ or ‘makeyupy’. Twitter vocabulary at work.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I understand your position. It is wise to be sceptical, but for me this is confirmed. It really fits with all this “only minute scene”.
tyjon,
LOL But nothing passes by this fandom because King Tommen, is a part of the fandom. He’s the Westeros ruler and he brought the joyous news after messing for half a thread with the “Sansa being Ramsey’s new bride” speculation.
I think I almost forgave him for that.
TheTouchOfFrost,
You mean to send my Tormund south? Stannis and Tormund is a weird combo. I would have picked Tormund to go
Gods be good, this season will be quite something.
tyjon,
I agree, I would question Litterfinger’s sanity/infatuation if he let Sansa near the Boltons. But when in crazytown, it’s a blast to join in.
King Tommen,
Sweet! Not Manderley, but crossed fingers!
I really have to stop watching these Sophie turner interviews. She throws me for a loop every time.
“Getting away from the Tully’s and the Starks…and creating her own House,” eh? I’m intrigued. Then again, I’m of a mind that she embraces her “Lannister” identity and rebuilds THAT House in her own way (plus…it would also fulfill the YMBQ prophesy that I’ve recently become convinced is about her and not Margery).
Tormund’s Woman,
🙂 Most enjoyable comment tonight.
-It undermines Sansa’s development by forcing her to play the traumatized victim and damsel in distress again. Will the Hound show up again, with Stannis on the doorstep, to offer to take her to…?
-It undermines Littlefinger’s master plan and obsessive attachment to Sansa because entrusting her to the Bolton’s is too risky to ever be considered an intelligent plan.**
-To a lesser extent, it hurts Theon and Cersei, but show-only viewers might not notice much.
-Most importantly, it prematurely reunites a POV Stark with Winterfell. That is a significant narrative moment, as powerful as two Starks reuniting, and the overall story isn’t ready for that yet. It’s a finale moment – an end-game moment. It certainly shouldn’t come early as a plot contrivance, especially if Sansa is only to be whisked away from Winterfell at the end of the season to reunite with Littlefinger and prepare for her Season 6 story.
**This point is similar to how removing FAegon from the story makes Varys look like a fool. However, it’s an easier change to stomach as the FAegon plot is complicated and a weaker plot line in AFFC, ADWD. On the other hand, the Northern story line is considered by many to be the strongest of the last two books, and doesn’t need to be radically altered or saved.
Reasons why Sansa might go to Winterfell despite everything written above:
-Sansa will be victimized by Harry the Heir in WoW, thus stunting her character development, or lack thereof. Ran did say the Sansa chapter he read was controversial due to issues of characterization. Thus, Ramsay becomes a more extreme substitute for Harry.
-And/or Sansa is heading North in WoW anyways, and the writers are not interested in her Vale story.
-Not a lot of WoW material exists for Sansa, and so D&D are giving George more time.
-It’s common on long-running TV shows for writers to sacrifice characterization for dramatic thrills, especially when a clear blueprint doesn’t exist. D&D aren’t perfect, have limited time, and have a lot to juggle. They may understand the narrative consequences of sending Sansa to Winterfell but make the decision anyway for these reasons.
We shall see. Personally, I’d rather suffer a few episodes of a slow Vale story line than see such a dramatic change. Inconsistent and stunted characterization have plagued many TV shows. Sometimes on your first watch, or when you’re binging you don’t notice, but when you look back on the whole thing, it feels a mess. I can only stomach Michael shouting, “WALT!” so much.
Of course it’s Mance. He
Ironborn,
Only in the books, show Mance was not.
Which to me is an indication that Mance and his Wildling women commando mission has been cut.
Myranda
Theon’s salt wife
tyjon,
I wouldn’t be so sure.
King Tommen,
I’m thoroughly stoked over even the possibility that the Greatjon might return this season. Regardless of whether or not he winds up playing a similar role to Manderly or doing something else entirely, bringing him back would add another exciting element to the Northern storyline – and as the discussion in this thread has shown, there are plenty of exciting elements to consider already! My sincere thanks for discovering that piece of information and bringing it to our attention!
Isn’t it’s safer to say that Theon will reencounter Greatjon? They had their minutes of screentime together before and now Theon is completely different. If the Greatjon is replacing Lord too fat, it will only add to the drama.
I think it’s a less stretch than Sansa, in my opinion.
https://twitter.com/katesfxmakeup/status/569742589638942720
Someone asked her about her involvement in GoT and/or with Clive Mantle.
She was asked if she could confirm it or not and said “no”, which could either mean, “no I’m not involved” or “no, I can’t say”…so who the hell knows.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND NVM.
https://twitter.com/katesfxmakeup/status/569747927033368576
False scoop sadly. Sue was right in her skepticism it seems.
Greenjones,
I was the one that asked her. She clarified in a second tweet stating that is was, sadly, not for Game of Thrones.
weird twitter exchange. hm
Gwenivere,
Yep. I’ve caught up. Check the comment above yours. Too bad. 🙁
I knew the “the books” crowd would come out of the wood work.
A very entertaining group.
Greenjones,
I had a feeling it was not connected to GOT. If she was involved with the show, she would have likely been in some trouble.
She obviously lies
sansa in winterfell!!
2 seasons left guys with 10 episodes each!
no time for boring vale politics and characters we dont care about. this is tv!
the consolidation has began.
She speaks about other show but that show doesnt exist
So, Clive Mantle is in some other show whose acronym is GOT, that was filming in September 2014?
I dunno, this seems like a pretty big coincidence…
IS there another show with those initials??
Greenjones,
🙁
Let’s get back to Sansa then.
biosnake @biosnake 50m50 minutes ago
@katesfxmakeup @GwenivereScott what show?
Kate Griffiths @katesfxmakeup
@biosnake @GwenivereScott sorry can’t say
—————————–
Now I’m 100% convinced that Jon Umber is in s5, because, guess what, Clive Mantle has no other show,
1. He wouldn’t hide role in some new show, because there is no point in hiding anything in premier season
2. He has no “other show” where his return will be secret, actually, he didn’t shoot anything new
3. That tweet is from September, and they shoot a northern story in September
I’m sure he is in.
He shoots some comedy, but s11 ended 11 days ago, so that would not be secret.
There is also some cartoon, but that is not important.
And there in NOTHING else. No other show, nothing.
He is in s5 for sure.
mau,
I still wonder why she used “in”. “Clive Mantle in GoT..”
Because he is in s5, but she didn’t know that we are fanatics and follow every news about GoT.
And now she is trying to avoid attention. But really? A different show? Ha ha ha! Yeah, right!
As I wrote above, there is no other show.
Where are the tinfoil hats? Look at her surname! OMG Conspiracy!
There is no reason to keep Great Jon Umber’s reappearance a secret. We were told ahead of time that Thorne and Sylnt would reappear at the Wall last season. Thus, he’s probabaly not in.
Gatsby,
So why they keep Kevan’s, Lancel’s, Illyrio’s reappearance a secret?
This fandom is hilarious, and I don’t mean it in a bad way. This poor make-up artist thought she could tweet at her friends in peace… But no, with us you can’t! (Big thanks to our rightful King Tommen.)
I don’t buy this secret “other show”.
Gatsby,
They’re not keeping his possible reappearance a secret. They just didn’t communicate about it.
Gatsby,
mau,
HBO never announced those actors returns officially either. Both just confirmed it in interviews.
They’ve been able to keep recurring guest actors’ returns under wraps very successfully in the past (like Aemon and Balon showing up again in ep. 310 for example).
Greenjones,
Yes, for example, we know that Blackfish will return because actor confirmed it, but we don’t know when. s5? s6?
But without actor’s statement we would be in the dark, because HBO would never announce anything.
Now I’m sad again. I want my Clive Mantle in my GoT.
Someone please whisper sweet lies in my ear.
There is no need for lies. She confirmed that Clive Mantle will appear in same show and she won’t tell us anything else. But however, there is no other show on which Mr. Mantle had worked.
And there is only one show with many secret castings and returning actors.
I find no other show the actor could be involved in… so unless I’m missing something, the make-up lady is simply avoiding getting herself into trouble… not that she would, I don’t think so —but she twitted to her friends and suddenly a whole fandom is asking her questions. No wonder she panicked. But, truly, I can’t find what other project could it be. Also, she said “in GoT” not “from GoT.”
I want to believe, I really do… but:
1. She’s from England, not N Ireland (I doubt they would fly in make-up artists, right? I’d guess the show uses local people for such positions.)
2. Maybe she simply used the wrong word (‘in’ instead of ‘from’).
3. As for the ‘other’ project, who knows? Maybe a commercial, theater role, talk show appearance, some media project, local festival… there’s a bunch of possibilities that don’t include roles on a TV show or a movie.
It’s all very intriguing… Not sure exactly where I stand on the theories flying about, but I will enjoy the not knowing.
I look forward to seeing Theon and Ramsay engage with some different characters – they’ve been a bit isolated for a while.
Has anyone gone through the make-up artist’s earlier tweets and/or other web activities? Has she ever mentioned anything GoT related? If she worked on the show, I doubt this would be the first thing she said regarding it.
Mr Fixit,
Fair enough 😉
ReekReek,
Nice “Silence of the Lambs” reference…
Clearly the big change is Reek being forced by Ramsay to “service” Fat Walda instead of FArya.
1. Why they wouldn’t?
2. And maybe not
3. No, it is not commercial, theater role, talk show appearance because she said show
So my final thoughts on this ssubject
1. We for sure know that Clive Mantle shoot some show in September 2014. This is a fact, confirmed by that tweet
2. This girl can’t tell us anything about that show
3. That shooting was 5 months ago. Any show will start airing or at least start promotion during that time
4. There is no promotion or broadcasting of the show in which Clive Mantle appears
For me, all this is confirmation that we will see him in s5.
If someone has a different interpretation of these facts I’d like to hear it.
mau,
Agreed. And it really seemed like she chickened out, just because someone asked her directly about it. Maybe she thought it was someone from HBO investigating xD Idk how the rules are for make-up artists, but I guess she could get in trouble. Returning Mantle seems like something D&D could do. I still want Mandely, but if we get the Greatjon instead, that’s good enough I suppose. Best would be both.
Roose to the Freys: “I’m sure the Greatjon only meant to cut your pie for you” 😀
Every year they hide castings – blood raven season 4 , balon season 3 , Dario – the first one , season 3 season 2 Jason momoa season 2 the masked woman who talks to jorah ( forget her name ), there’s more
I’m just drawling blanks . Like honestly we could even get Ariane still towards the back half of the season,
Like if by the third time we see trystane on the show if he isn’t named the heir than theres gonna be an arianne appearance to they just have to do lil things like that to save money
I’m gonna go out
On a limb and say that LS , black fish , and thoros will be secret charectors this season , most likely won’t see this charectors till the back half of the season , Great Jon to most likely, when we see the grave digger that will
Be hidden, for sure. and I think we’re gonna get either euron or aegon by the end of the season , they may only get a few scenes but every year they do new charectors that are significant but aren’t in the new casting promo vids and it only covers the new charectors for the first half of the season than the second half you get hit with even more new charectors . Season 2 – roose Bolton wasn’t announced season 3 Ramsey Bolton wasn’t announced . Every year they do that , I need some more optimism . So far the shows been a great adaption and I still have a lot of hope that they’re not gonna cut the big WTF book moments from
The story . They just gotta make em big wtf tv moments with as lil spoiler-ing as possible
Grand maester giz,
That’s a lot of wishful thinking (and I’m an optimist!)
We may get a few of those you mentioned. Not all. No way.
As the person who originally stumbled across the tweet, I’d say there’s still some scepticism on her response (99% of TV shows don’t keep their castings secretive months and months after filming wraps. I have no idea what other project he would be involved with that would carry the same cone of silence GoT does).
But it’s not confirmed and sadly, until something else comes up, this piece of news will have to be relegated to the comment sections here and not a nice shiny article to itself. Too bad.
King Tommen,
Yeah, the contradicting reports make the ‘news’ nonpunishable, sadly. I’m still pretty sure she’s just covering her ass now and was saying exactly what it looks like she was saying in the first place, but she’s denying it, so for now this can’t be regarded as anything more than a dubious report, unless we get an external confirmation.
For what it’s worth, on her website she has some recent blog posts where she talks about wanting to post pictures from a TV show she’s worked on but she’s not allowed until it airs.
I would love to know what this mystery TV show is if it’s not GoT. Sounds like a sneaky one.
Maybe that is better. You know, something like nice surprise. We here know that 95% he is in s5, but without article no one else will know.
GoT is the one true show!
I can’t t think of any this secretive show. And remember that Clive Mantle must be part of that show.
Hmmmmmm… It is “very” hard to guess… xD
One thing that is worth noting is that Alfie doesn’t say that his character will interact with anyone knew. Just that it will happen in his story line. So I was trying to think if there are any characters that Ramsay or Roose has interacted with before. But I can’t think of any.
Anyways I’ve decided that Greatjon is comming to Winterfell and he will have awesome interactions with everyone there. I hope he serves them pie and chews out Theon. I might get super disappointed for this ones the series actually come along. But oh well it’s worth it to be happy about it now. I bet if it doesn’t happen the season will give me plenty of pleasant surprises to balance it out.
Greatjon laughed after Greywind bit his fingers off and the King in the North scenes were the highlights of season 1. If he is back in season 5 to play a major role in Winterfell my life will be complete and please make it happen.
My favourite Greatjon scene in S1 is when Catelyn reaches Robb’s camp and the Greatjon leaves them to have some privacy but not before joyfully greeting Ser Rodrik in what looks like will be a celebratory noogie as they walk away.
They don’t hide the castings. The show simply does not announce the castings of ANY characters other than a few major roles. The rest are discovered by fans like us. Occasionally HBO will confirm those castings/returns for us, but usually fans find the castings on CV/resumes or mentioned in interviews.
Quaithe (the masked woman)’s casting was discovered by a tweet from the actress. I discovered Bloodraven’s casting when I came across his CV.
But Daario, the first one, his casting actually WAS announced officially. We had that exclusive at WiC- him and Grey Worm. The second Daario, I found a photo of him working out with his trainer on Instagram and that’s how we knew Michiel was joining the show, and the Hollywood Reporter confirmed which role.
So to repeat (with the exception of the first season when they randomly released a listing of every named character’s cast listing), the show does not announce castings/returns except for major roles. All the staff sign non-disclosure agreements so they really can’t confirm things for you, no point in bugging them on Twitter.
I kno bran isn’t visually in this season but couldn’t it be bran who just speaks to theon and that’s what alfie is referring to?
If Greatjon = Wyman, Winterfell Worker = Jeyne Poole, Sansa = Sansa then I will be happy.
Okay fans were gonna need a recon team to follow her around see who she talks to and what she does. Team Alpha get on her twitter team delta monitor all her facebook activity. Bravo team is still in the field working on uncovering the redacted ending of the original game of thrones manuscript. Lmao #GOTFANSARETHEBEST
I tried to scroll through her tweets back to Sept., but she tweets so much it crashed my browser. On Facbook, she was working on a different show in London during that time. Numerous posts on that…. No mention of working on GOT any whwere. Surely she could/would brag about working on the show without spoiling it.
I’d like to see the Greatjon hanging out with Blackfish in a dungeon or on the run. Clive Mantle’s real life lost ear would be perfect to show the effects of war since we’ve last saw him.
A Girl Will Obey,
Stannis may be characterized as being iron and unbending, but then why is he the one commander who listens to his polar opposite counselors (plus Jon Snow) before making any decisions? Why did he reconsider taking on a religion when he resented the seven so much after his parents died? Why is he allowing followers of the old gods in his army? Why did he change his mind about winning the crown to save the realm? Stannis is nothing if not adaptable.
If anyone can nail the north remembers speech it would be Clive mantle. Imagine a combination of the north remebers speech and I want to bathe in bolton blood being a combined speech ending with I have my king here, the north remembers, lord Davos. Then the scene cuts to rickon and his massive wolf playing in a separate castle yard, end of the episode.
Nice try all, but I remain unconvinced about this Sansa to WF business. You’re all crazy.
Not saying it means anything but they absolutely do fly in make-up and hair people.
I have a friend, living in Scotland, who got to do some make-up on Daniel Portman last year. They bring ’em in, alright.
Alfie seems like the kind of name you shouldn’t have after entering adulthood. Like if you want to be taken seriously, you go the Marky Mark Wahlberg route, keep your pants on in public and drop the silly kid nickname
Chin up! Look at it like hedging your bets! Alfie probably spoke of either Sansa or Greatjon. Whichever it is, you win! Like Charlie Sheen! Yay!
umuckurlife,
Sansa in WF is old news brah. Now Greatjon in WF is the shit.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Kate Griffiths was telling me the truth when she responded to my tweet. Why tweet about working with Clive Mantle on Game of Thrones for the world to see if you are contracted not to say anything? If she really wanted to tell her friends what she was working on but it was a secret, she could have told them in numerous other ways. If you look on her website, she doesn’t say a word about Game of Thrones. Plus, she is must less experienced in television than film and theater. She would have said something about it, because as a makeup artist that is a HUGE get. You would definitely want future employers to know about that.
I want the Greatjon back too, but unfortunately this is not in any way related. Anyway, we will find out who will be in the north soon enough.
I like how no one even considers the show inclusion of the Arnolf Karstark “double-agent” plot that occurred in ADwD and ended up going nowhere as a possibility. Sometimes Martin just throws complexity in for complexity’s sake. It’s pretty easy to take a meat cleaver to extraneous crap like that.
I feel like if she had worked on GoT and was barred from speaking about it, and then got busted (by us)… her instinct would be just to delete the tweet altogether. idk i hope she is just backpeddling now and we can get confirmation somewhere else
I like your style. Next time I’m down, I want you to bolster my flagging spirits. 😉
King Tommen,
Well the double agent plot is going somewhere
I think the best idea to come out of this whole thread is that “Winterfell Worker” is actually the fArya… the actress does look similar, and hell, I can dig a conspiracy theory like that
Sofia,
Haha. I’ve been sick and only just got around to reading this thread. I’m good with the Greatjon in WF. Either that or maybe Theon is just talking about hanging out with the heart-tree as if it is a character.
umuckurlife,
Weirwood tree as fake Arya! Calling it now!
Think we should perhaps leave the young make-up lass alone now! I think there’s still a good possibility that he may be in the next season as her response didn’t exactly clarify anything. I think she didn’t realise that people would pick up on it and has gone quiet/vague so it doesn’t affect her future employment. I think we should take it as an interesting tit bit that may lead to something else. Pretty sure no one here would want her mistake through over-excitement to affect her career. We shall watch. We shall hope. We shall be disappointed if he doesn’t turn up! 😛
Interestingly though , on her main Twitter page the eyes in the picture at the top look very wight-esque! 😛
so on which show is she doing?
Asshat by the Shadow,
Um yeah I’m not sure why you’re replying in what seems like disagreement as this is basically exactly what I said, if in less detail. Stannis has his own character arc and is as susceptible to change and evolution as any other character.
Geez, 300+ comments for what may have been a poor choice of words/turn of phrase from Alfie Allen, things are intense here. S5 can’t start soon enough.
Surprised there isn’t a post about this. I’m going apeshit!!!!!
I’m not going to look into this anymore but what you’re saying doesn’t make much sense.
If she was soooo excited about working with Clive Mantle (whether it was for GoT or another project), why are there zero tweets from her about it to follow up this one? Perhaps because once she was brought on to the project, she was then informed about the non-disclosure of her involvement until after the show aired. That would explain the lack of follow-up on Twitter of her exciting news, the lack of mention of any project with Clive Mantle on her webpage etc.
Her original excited tweet never was picked up by anyone so she probably felt that it had come and gone with no incident. She probably wasn’t expecting someone to go digging for something on her profile after the fact so she forgot about it.
She has hints on her blog on her website about a TV show she worked on that she wants to post pictures of but is not allowed to speak about until after it airs.
And now, when asked about this tweet from 6 months ago that I’m sure she had long forgotten, she answers that it’s for a different TV show that she’s not allowed to talk about.
So we are to assume that there is a mystery television show that was shooting last September that she worked on and is not allowed to say anything about. Basically, that there is another show out there that operates the exact same way GoT (which is entirely unique) does.
We also have to assume that this mystery show is also keeping Clive Mantle’s role a secret for some reason. There is no mention of him appearing in any projects this year on IMDB or otherwise. So her explanation to you only makes sense if there is some magical TV project that is operating concurrent to the GoT production schedule that she helped Clive Mantle with and requires an equal level of production secrecy. Or perhaps, perhaps, she has signed a non-disclosure since that tweet and realizes she can’t say anything about this or else she’ll be in huge shit.
There’s also the wording of her tweet which doesn’t leave much for interpretation. Looking at her other communications on Twitter and the web, she doesn’t seem to have any problems forming proper sentences and forming coherent thoughts.
Oh, and she just happens to specialize in prosthetics like the kind a guy who’s had his ear chewed off in the last couple years might need if he was going back on TV.
A Girl Will Obey,
Yeah, we at least need a new trailer to satiate our GOT desires.
King Tommen,
Absolutely agree!
I wanted to write a long post, but you were faster.
Exactly my thoughts.
King Tommen,
Tommen, damn your devilish charms and nefarious persuasion techniques for managing to (again) flip-flop me over to your interpretation.
King Tommen,
I don’t use twitter, can you explain me how you find this tweet?
You searched for something GoT related?
And what do you think how many other existing information about GoT are hiding on Twitter or Facebook?
It is not interpretation, it is a fact! 😎
mau,
So we hope. I’ll believe it when I see it, and won’t freak out if it doesn’t happen.
King Tommen,
Please go to her website and look at her blog and credentials. She has not worked on the show. I don’t understand why people won’t go to her LinkedIn account and/or her website to confirm everything I am trying to tell you. This is not something she is trying to keep secret. She is very clear that she has most of her experience with film and theater. IF she worked for Game of Thrones she would absolutely say that she has good amount of television experience. Even if she could not talk about the project yet, she would put her television work to tell other employers about her experience because most makeup artists aren’t contracted. A job from six months ago will not continue to pay her rent.
I know you are excited for the season, but creating hysteria in the fandom is not helpful. Please do the rest of the research before you start trying to convince people and we have another lsh incident on our hands. I want the Greatjon back too, but we need to be reasonable. This is in relation about what Wimsey was talking about earlier. Fans that read so far between the lines, they come up with a wild hypothesis. There is no conspiracy here, I am sorry to say.
However, you might very well be right about Sansa up in Winterfell.
I didn’t see any pictures last year of Alfie and Clive partying together in Belfast, but I have seen pics of Sophie, Alfie, and Michael at a concert together. Let the games begin! I have a feeling English majors are going to die this season.
Rygritte,
There were also pictures of Aidan Gillen, Conleth Hill and Michael McElhatton together and they won’t have scenes together. They all shoot in Belfast, so it’s only natural that actors who don’t have scenes together hang out too.
Gwenivere,
I have read her site and her blog.
You’re ignoring that her response to you is that she’s working on another TV show with Clive Mantle and there’s no mention of that on her blog or website. She’s telling you she’s not allowed to talk about it. That’s why she’s not able to publicize her involvement with it since last September (on her site or Twitter). That’s the explanation as to why there’s nothing there (GoT or otherwise).
FROM HER OWN BLOG: “I was going to blog about another job that I worked on this week but it’s got to be aired on TV before I can put out any photos from it,”
She’s not able to talk about the TV show she worked on with Clive Mantle, she’s told you as much. The only question that needs to be answered is what the TV show is. She’d have you believe it’s not GoT, but another equally secretive show that made her sign a non-disclosure and not talk about it until aired. And that happened to also have Clive Mantle in the cast even though there is no record of him being in anything upcoming on TV this year.
And to me, it sounds like she simply did one thing specifically for Clive Mantle for this role back in September, not that she joined the staff of the show to do makeup for everyone. She was called in to do something for him alone and that was the extent of her involvement in the show. She has since gone back to her other freelance projects and I’m sure is dying to talk about what she did (again GoT or otherwise) but simply has been told she can’t until the time it airs.
King Tommen,
+1000
King Tommen,
When specifically did she post about the job she couldn’t talk about?
And btw folks Rosabell Laurenti Sellers has a twitter account now, so all 3 Snakes have it now. https://twitter.com/rosa_seller
Greenjones,
http://www.theatricalmakeupartist.com/news-from-kate-griffiths-theatrical-make-up-artist/
i can’t see date
Appears to be some damage control here by WotW concerning that leak, after all they have to stay on D&D’s good graces, which is understandable.
tyjon,
What do you mean by that?
It’s certainly not damage control. How are WoTW beholden to the production in any way? They wouldn’t be leaking casting calls if that was the case. They can’t post anything because it’s all based on one tweet that the author has since denied. There’s no confirmation there so why would you report it until you have something more reliable?
But that doesn’t mean that we can’t use the evidence at our disposal to draw some conclusions in the comments. I wouldn’t expect Sue and company to take this and run with it, it’s too flimsy. Doesn’t mean we can’t put this in our back pocket for the time being.
mau,
How do we know that article is referring to the same job she tweeted about regarding Clive Mantle?
Yeah the blog post is relatively recently so it’s hard to tell if she’s saying she worked on a TV project this week that she wanted to talk about or if she wanted to blog this week about a TV project she can’t talk about yet.
Regardless, she has confirmed she worked with Mantle back in September on a TV project and has not talked about it since (and isn’t allowed to). It stands to reason she’s referring to this same TV show in her blog because whatever she’s done with Mantle hasn’t aired yet and she’s made no mention of it on her site.
Big Mac,
I think because that article was written at the same time?
That is question for King Tommen
I’m a bit late to the party, but I thought I’d throw my hat in the ring regarding Sansa’s arc this season. Just for the record, I’m not privy to any more information that you guys, so this is all speculation based on what we ALL already know.
Apologies for the messiness of the above… writing on mobile sucks.
Here’s my two cents on the matter copy-and-pasted from a post of mine on AFOIAF:
“Think back. What was the first thing Sophie Turner ever said about s5? Something about “Sansa using her sexuality” on LF (which ignited its a freakout of its own from certain folks). This was back in late July. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZeHrrtAmPs&feature=youtu.be
Now consider what we know about LF in s5. He and Sansa will be travelling through the Vale in their first appearance in s5 (likely in 502). Brienne will be nearby and some sort of chase will occur when the two meet. Sansa will be tearful and LF will comfort her with the idea that she should “avenge them”. Not long after this though, he’ll have to depart to KL because we know from TristanSnow’s info that he will be there by a Mark Mylod episode (likely 504).
In this small amount of time they couldn’t possibly establish the sortof arc that Sophie referred to in this first interview about s5. I think it’s ridiculous to think that they’d only have a few scenes together in s5, especially considering the setup in s4. It stands to reason that they’ll have more scenes together after LF returns from KL, with stories of Cersei’s misrule (as in Sansa’s third AFFC chapter). Then they can delve into whatever TWOW material they want to, I suppose but even that will likely still be in the Vale (or if not, more likely in the Riverlands than the North IMHO).”
Greenjones,
I’m still at a loss about what Sansa will be doing during Littlefinger’s sojourn in King’s Landing, but maybe it will be a relatively brief trip. At any rate, yours is the most believable season arc for Sansa yet.
Cian,
It took a while to read/skim/catch up on all this, so just a few thoughts, sorry if this has already been said.
Ok on the Sansa in Winterfell matter…
I can see this happening, especially from the footage/interviews we have. I can see Petyr giving her to pep talk to get revenge before sending her off on this emotionally painful assignment. I don’t know why people are concerned she’s returning to a weak state, since she’d be doing this purposefully in order to establish her own power/get revenge. She’s going as a player not just a pawn. If she does go..
Some issues:
-Annulling the marriage to Tyrion (you are right to say Cersei would not allows this if she knew Sansa was alive as she’s wanted for Joff’s murder but either LF or someone could get it annulled as a way to take away Tyrion’s potential power upon return and not tell her Sansa is located, or it could happen with the High Sparrow while Cersei is imprisoned). Or Stannis or someone like that just says it’s irrelevant. Or there is a false report of Tyrion’s death.
-She cannot go to Winterfell as a wedding guest as herself, she’s wanted by the crown. And the Boltons would not invite her as Sansa to the wedding of her fake sister as she would obviously recognize her, so that scenario is out. She’ll either go in disguise, or she’ll go as Ramsay’s bride.
-It is possible Petyr and Sansa could negotiate for her to wed Ramsay and try to keep it a secret from the Lannisters, even though Boltons are Lannister allies, we know Roose will arrange anything to advance his own power.
-I think Sansa agreeing to this marriage and going through with it just so she can be in a position to take revenge would match well with Sophie’s description of her character’s arc this season. People were thinking she would take a LSH kind of role and this would fit with that in a way- Sansa out for revenge, just maybe not how we imagined.
-Everyone is assuming Sansa in WF may mess up things for TWoW but we don’t know what the storyline will be! Maybe this is where Sansa goes eventually to try and build a power base so we’re skipping ahead. Aegon and Stannis could be dead for all we know. It’s not clear if Stannis will survive the battle anyway, and many have suggested Jon will take his followers if he dies, with Melisandre following Jon. So let’s not make assumptions about future plots being disturbed when we don’t know what’s coming.
Just super excited to see what the season will bring! 🙂 Either way I think Sophie will do a great job in her newer, more complex role!
Not Sansa, but Asha/Yara. Now ask yourself, why call her Yara? The real reason, not the cover story usually bandied about. Yara? Arya? Fake Arya?
Yara will have a role and still be able to so whatever it is she will do in Winds of Winter after meeting up with the King. Theon will have a strong motive for breaking his conditioning, (could there be a stronger one?).
If Balon the Usurper meets his just end, then the Iron Islands will be without a strong male heir and will be staring down the barrel of a Lannister-Bolton alliance. An arranged marraige would be a logical way out of that dilemma, and would certainly strengthen the Bolton hand.
Stannis the Mannis,
If they were going to do that they would have had her captured last year when she went to the Dreadfort.
“Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you.” – Petyr, to Sansa
Greenjones,
Agreed. Also… she looks like 30. Not exactly prime fArya material.
Sansa Season 5 Options:
2-Goes to Riverun (Liberates Riverun from the Freys, chases down Brienne with extreme prejudice for no real reason)
3-Goes to winterfell (Along with Farya, or with Robin to secure an alliance with the North)
4-Goes to Kingslanding (Stays hidden in a brothel does nothing)
5-Goes to Highgarden (Smells flowers, finally sees Highgarden, marries Aegon?)
6-Goes to The Twins (Poses as a kitchen wench, seduces Walder Frey and slits his throat while he sleeps)
Those are the only options I see for Sansa and I wont even mention the one of her becoming an undead spirit of vengeance.
Stannis the Mannis,
I just listened to Bryan Cogmans commentary on episode 6 and he cleared up the confusion of Yara being afraid of the dogs by saying she left because she realized Theon is gone and she wants her fathers throne, or something similar. So I doubt she will be farya and it lends some hope to the kingsmoot plot line.
Nick Hartley does not sow!
I will squeal like a school girl if they give Clive Mantle the “Hugo Wull Last Winter” speech :-].
I’m truly hoping we see him back in season 5. Illyrio, Kevan, Lancel, and the Greatjon all making cameos? F*** yes please
I found Clive Mantle’s last credited work. Birds of a feather which aired in January 2014.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3243386/?ref_=ttep_ep4
http://sueterryvoices.com/news/clive-mantle-in-birds-of-a-feather#selected_news_item
Turncloak,
I like yelling a battlecry now!
Tormund’s Woman,
I don’t ask for much, just epic lines from the books to make it to the screen please :-].
Damn I’m hype for Greatjon Umber. I’m going crazy looking at his CV and seeing alot of open space in which he could have filmed in 2014. Hugo Wull’s speech, The broken man speech, and “edd, fetch me a block”, are things that would get me so pumped!
https://pro-labs.imdb.com/name/nm0544139?rf=cons_nm_contact&ref_=cons_nm_contact
You left out the last thing he says
Rygar, Sansa is gonna have Littlefinger so sprung, he jetpacks to a brothel in King’s Landing.
Tormund’s Woman,
That’s freaking awesome! Lol.
Hey folks,
Some more investigation might throw some cold water on the Greatjon speculation. IMDBPro (something that gives you more info than the regular IMDB pages do) lists Clive Mantle in a new Jack the Ripper TV show that is set to debut sometime in 2015. It doesn’t say the exact timeframe when the show was filmed (or if they’ve started at all) but last Fall is certainly plausible. It’s being shot in London which is the makeup person’s homebase so while there’s no definitive proof, it could definitely fall under a TV project she did Mantle’s makeup for around the time she tweeted.
The wording of her tweet is still weird but if she was answering truthfully when asked, this could be the non-GoT TV show she was talking about.
We’ll know soon enough I’m sure.
King Tommen,
It also seems he is playing Jack the Ripper himself in it so hes basically the lead. Oh well back to wishing the show was written by internet fans I go.
so are we going to see sansa licked by reek as in the books it was jeyne poole or fake arya ?
That would be hell.
What a crazy thread this turned into 😀
Anyways I’ve decided that I zero percent believe that sansa will be in winterfell this season. Not in either of the suggested roles. I just don’t see it fitting.
King Tommen,
oh fuck !!!
King Tommen,
Varys and the valonqar are coming for you and Ser Pounce! Oh well, speculation rarely meets reality. It was a fun Sunday of blogging though. May the GreatJon surprise us yet!
Crabber’s Son,
That’s an absolutely terrifying idea. Thank god that’s not the case.
So, back to square 1. Who does Theon interact with? Sansa does fit the bill, for better of worse.
And because of this, readin unfinished story is a bad thing to dp.
Because we don’t watch a show, we expect something to happen.
I can’t wait to become the Unsullied again.
Mr Fixit, Reek will smile with his lips closed while Mance sings the soundtrack of his life as their relationship blossums.
King Tommen,
Ouch. Well, that doesn’t dosprove it, but it definitely lowers the odds. I would’ve said 50/50 chance of getting him yesterday, but probably down to like 20% today. I just really want there to be some bit of the northern lords plot, dammit. 🙁 It’ll be weird if they fix so many of the issues that Feast/Dance had in other plots, while removing one of the few plots that seems to be close to universally well liked.
Well, I still believe that some Umbers must be in the show.
Because Rickon is with them. Or they know where he is.
I think that D&D wanted Clive Mantle, but if he is not available at this moment I suppose they can introduce another Umber, and they can say that Greatjon is dead.
mau,
Exactly. The Umbers must come back, be it in season 5 or 6, considering how Rickon was set up as heading to Last Hearth.
Am I the only one who thinks that Theon is going to meet Jon Snow? I mean, he may go to the wall when he escapes. I really don’t think that Alfie was refering to Sansa, I think it’s gonna be Jon Snow…
DaenerysTyrion,
To me that’s a much more logical theory than him meeting with Sansa.
Luka Nieto,
Am I the only person who would be happy if Rickon is never seen again in the books and show? Let him live happily ever after in Skaagos. I just have no attachment to the character at all, especially in the books.
Neither does the author.
Finally a sane idea! Jon makes the most sense…. but ohhh that would end terribly for Theon unless he is allowed to take the black. They may catch Theon up to the end of his Dance storyline and then go forward.
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
Yikes, just read through the thread. Guess we’re all starved for news!
mau,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR3kwbC1-5M
Besides, I don’t see any real reason to try to ineffectively cram a Rickon arc in with everything else that is happening this season. I agree with you that because Rickon was sent to Last Hearth, Greatjon will most likely be reintroduced in relation to Rickon. But we literally have no clue when . There is nothing substantial suggesting it is happening happening S5.
I didn’t say it would happen this season.
Come on, HBO, give us a new trailer before we all go nuts.
I don’t think anyone has speculated that it could be Myranda that Alfie is referring to. They have had only two short scenes together so far. I don’t mean to imply that she will be fArya, but that Theon/Reek will establish a relationship with her since she surely will be going to Winterfell with the Boltons.
Wall Builder,
I like your thinking, it is a possibility. Actually right now I like any thinking that doesn’t involve Sansa going to Winterfell this season.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I have no involvement in Rickon’s character either, but I do want his return because of what he represents, someone for the North to rally behind. I think that is important, much more so than that it is him.
Exactly. Rickon is the only surviving legitimate male Stark still potentially in play.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Oh, I don’t either. It’s more of an expectation than a hope. It’s obviously being set up in the books, and in the show as well, though quite differently.
Luka Nieto,
If that’s the plan, Martin could have done it better. Rickon’s too much of a total non-factor right now. Even Lancel is more memorable than the poor kid.
Mr Fixit,
You’re right about that.
Mr Fixit,
Martin already wrote characters that need the masses (ex.: Stannis who needs the Northmen) so honestly I rather liked the reverse play on that particular idea, where the group literally needs a Stark symbol to rebel against the Boltons.
Rickon is either a Shaggy Dog story in that his tale goes nowhere, or he makes the rest of the story a shaggy dog story in that he comes back in at the end and says, “Hey look, free throne.”
Tormund’s Woman,
Tolkien would have done that, but modern novelists like GRRM would not. There are particular protagonists in those settings.
Now, plot wise these groups will be important. Ultimately, a big issue for the Sansa and Arya could be winning over the Northmen. And
could be huge: particularly if the three “at large” Starks wind up on three different sides! However, the mass of people is (as GRRM noted) going to be important for developing the main characters, not for their own sakes.
That is a meaningless request! Logic means that it necessarily follows. “If X then y” means that if X happens, we will see y. If we do not see y, then X didn’t happen. If we see X and see that y happens because of it, we can logically conclude that “some X induce y.” These are all logically valid statements. (The soundness of the statements depends on how true the “If X then y,” “X” and “y” statements are: and that’s a whole different kettle of fish!)
The key here is that are dozens and dozens of scenarios (X’s) that predict what we know (the y’s). Sansa taking control, making the hard choices that a leader must make, and starting to move the Vale against the Lannisters (all of which we could well see in Winter) would create lots of X’s that predict these y’s. Any and all of them are in the set of “plausible ideas.”
We can add to this the concept of prior probability. For the most part, the show sticks to the books in the general plot outlines. That means that we should give low prior probability to ideas that greatly deviate from what the books do. We do not know that Sansa is going to galvanize the Vale into action in Winter, but it’s not improbable. We do know that she does not marry Ramsay or go to Winterfell in Dragons/Crows, so that has low prior probability.
(Of course, it could be that you do not actually mean “logical” when you say “logical”: I sometimes suspect that “logical” is the most misused word in the English language!)
Given the way that Allen phrases it, it would seem that he’s talking about a character that Theon does not have a prior relationship but with whom he has shared some scenes. If so, then the GreatJon would be the best candidate: after all, Theon does have a prior relationship with Jon (and the Starks) that “precedes” the series, but he doesn’t have one of which we know anything for the Greatjon, and both Theon and GJ feature in the “King in the North” scene.
Another possibility is that they did cast a Jeyne Poole and that she was in some small scene that I don’t remember in the first season. Alternatively, they might have dubbed a set extra sitting with Sansa at the Winterfell feast “Jeyne Poole.” Obviously, they would be using a real actress now. The obvious evidence against that is that we have not heard of any casting, and as this would be a part in 3-4 episodes, we probably would have heard something. (But, then, we managed to not hear about Clive Mantle!)
Wimsey,
Whatever you may think will happen next, does not invalidate what analysis one makes so far based on the books we have though. Today a tier one treatment, tomorrow relegated at being a prop for a character. I didn’t say it will stay the same, and probably it will change as you predict. But so far, I personally interpret that
It is not only that Martin puts emphasis on The North Remembers as revenge. It is the presence and the voice the Northmen get compared with small folk/bannerman to a main House in any other part of Westeros.
You get Bran talking with the Liddle mountain clan man in ASoS, a discussion that sets up how the Northmen as a group feel and desire for a Stark (any one of them) in Winterfell. For them the Starks simply represent something good that these people believe in and look for. I don’t think you see that in the Riverlands for example. And you do have the small folk represented there in AFfC.
Then you get the whole Dance North storyline, where you have a large conspiracy against the Boltons (Northmen themselves), just to get a Stark in Winterfell. Any Stark. They go to battle for Ned’s little daughter, while Manderly looks for the Stark boy. They do not support Theon’s character development or story and they stay with Stannis for a specific reason of their own. That’s my opinion. And I’m sticking with it too!
Wimsey,
Then again Jaime going to Dorne had low probability in my eyes. And given the writers’ track record of trying to have as many principle cast members in a scene at a time, it seems unlikely Sansa can stay in the Vale alone without any of the main cast. She could spend some time with the Blackfish maybe? I think she is either going to Winterfell or Riverrun simply because the show doesn’t like to have one lead character alone, and Robin Arryn doesn’t really count as anyone important.
So, they’ll bond over missing fingers & their relationship will blossom?
Crabber’s Son,
Read this excerpt from an Italian Aidan Gillen interview:
“I can say that my character and that of Sansa Stark are setting out on a journey to the Valley of Arryn to take control of the House of Arryn.”
So… that’s exactly what’s gonna happen. Sansa and Littlefinger touring the Vale, taking control of House Arryn. I’m so happy that’s the first actually concrete thing we know about their storyline, and it pretty much discredits the ‘Sansa as Jayne in Winterfell’ theory.
Luka Nieto,
Yep. And there we have it. An actual scoop on her storyline that GUESS WHAT, doesn’t point in the direction that people have been harping on about (for which there was no actual evidence to begin with).
Luka Nieto,
Bye, bye, Robyn
tyjon,
I’m sure he mentioned Sansa only because he knows people are interested in their character’s relationship. He probably forgot to mention Robyn! Otherwise it IS a bit of a spoiler as S4 left where he takes Robyn with him and Sansa to tour the Vale and take charge of his lands.
Tormund’s Woman,
Luka Nieto,
Great find!
Luka Nieto,
Sorry for the double post. I messed up the spoiler tagging.
mariamb,
Technically, there are no Lords Declarant. The characters exist, but they didn’t declare anything in the show. They only served as judges. But they might appear, yes. I liked them very much; Game of Thrones always has great character actors for these small roles.
As for what Sansa and Petyr will be doing, it’s not like their storyline HAS to be packed with plot. They don’t have to be in each episode (6 or 7 may be enough); we know what will more or less happen in the first few, then while Littlefinger goes to King’s Landing Sansa must be doing something, and then maybe we’ll get a few TWOW spoilers. “Touring the Vale” seems like uninteresting viewing because we know none of the details; most of Game of Thrones would seem uninteresting if we only heard a rough outline. They’ll bother to make up (or advance from TWOW) an interesting plot, I’m sure.
Tormund’s Woman,
It’s oxymoronic to label a group of people a protagonist! A protagonist must be an individual: by definition, they are the individual’s who’s personal character development (static and dynamic) tell the story. Stories that use plots with groups of people (like Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings) do not have protagonists at all.
It probably should not have done! B&W had one big advantage: they got to read up on reaction to the books. Crows got a lot of negative reaction, and it was not only “which was worse: Dorne or the Iron Islands?” Back in 2005, a lot of people criticize GRRM for essentially kicking a dead-horse with the Riverlands plots when he could have had Jaime and/or Brienne doing things elsewhere that might have furthered the outstanding plots.
And it also is in keeping with what we know about this season’s story. If Jon is going to kill the boy and become the man, then Sansa has to kill Barbie and become Boudica. She has a long way to go: descending one stairwell in a “dressed to kill” garb is just one step.
Again, my suspicion is that they will parallel Daeny’s plot line from Season 1: Sansa is now the dispossessed Heir forced to turn into a Leader quite suddenly and with no prior training. This actually predicts what we’ve seen quite well (which means that it is not illogical). Of course, there are many other possibilities: but the Sansa as fArya idea does not fit this at all.
Yes, you are correct. They are there but haven’t done any declaring…at least not yet. Sansa’s story is a big question mark since we are hoping for TWOW spoilers.
Wimsey,
Lookit, Wimsey: The Northmen Are Treated As A Protagonist Vis-A-Vis Rickon! There, I said it! (I wonder what will happen now that I broke the rules…)
And stop calling my labeling them “as a protagonist” an act of a moron who breathes oxygen will you?! It is redundant. All morons breathe oxygen!
Tormund’s Woman,
Are you sure? This moron couldn’t breathe any oxygen.
I don’t know. I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean! At any rate, when the Northmen get multiple POV chapters in which they wrestle whether they should follow Moral Code A or Moral Code B, then I will eat my words.
That’s quite funny! 😀 I now am thinking of writing a sci-fi story in which the plot involves fluorine breathing idiots called the fluormorons. I just need a story….
Tormund’s Woman,
It’s not going to be immediate, at the earliest near the end of the season, but more than likely in season 6.
(Warning Fanfiction) Perhaps SanSan happens this season, maybe she comes across this slightly crippled big hooded monk at a Vale monastery and begins to wonder. Could be she sends for that monk on her special night saying she requires a herbal supplement and then things go from there. Robyn comes in and discovers his bride, calls the guards. Robyn and guards butchered, being the now legal wife, inherits Vale then is forced to execute someone, at least he has one happy memory.
I think the show will cut Harry the Heir and maybe just have everyone rally behind Sansa Stark. I mean the Vale is either with the Lannisters and Tyrells or they are with the sister of the King in the North. I think we know the Sansa scene isnt traumatic due to violence of any sort. Sansa seducing LF has been so heavily hinted at it has to be it. The entire scene at the end of the last season where Sansa is like i know what you want….Shall we go, wink wink. Its going to be like Dany and Drogo all over again. A Dany vs Sansa showdown would be pretty awesome too.
LOL It’s not supposed to mean anything. It was difficult to resist retyping it though, because you seem such a stickler for rules and order in general. I think sometimes an outside the box approach is ok. I do know the definition of protagonist, you know. I just think that in the situation I’ve described the lead is taken by the group at least for now in relation to Rickon or
The terminology may be wrong, but the idea behind it is correct IMO at least temporary (obviously!). Maybe they should have a term for it. Like in the TV with ensemble cast.
You don’t have to eat your words. (But would love to see you try!!!) Good luck with the Fluormorons! I bet it will be good. They probably won’t know the definitions! I think I’m beginning to have a fondness for them 😛
tyjon,
I thought there are no SanSan shippers left. You just like to stir trouble!
Tormund’s Woman,
I am more of a stickler for definitions! It is an occupational hazard…..
Trouble, and silly trouble, aye. However, there might be a grain of wisdom in that. Fans have been debating exactly where the Hound is for a while. Some of the ideas (= any in which “rotting somewhere” is not the answer) predict that we probably should see him again in Winter. Some of those predict that the Hound might be somewhere that Sansa could run into him again, particularly if she’s striking out in the area of the Vale or the Riverlands. Perhaps the ambiguous ending to the season to which Turner refers involves this?
Crabber’s Son,
Agree, HtH is out, it’s senseless adding another character at this stage, especially since the show runners are attempting to streamline the adaption and focus on the main high points, being there are only 3 seasons left, or three and a series of films, or 4 seasons, whatever. The are other ways to have Sansa take power, ways which focus more on the current players, ways which will be just as entertaining and effective with sharp writing.
Tormund’s Woman,
I was hoping to move people away from the fSansa in WF craziness.
Everyday when I check this site and look at how such a random post got over 450 comments I laugh and realize if we dont get another trailer soon the world may end.
But we already know that LF won’t spend the season in the Vale, despite what Gillen says. So Sansa may not either.
At this point, I will be surprised if HtH adds up to anything in the book.
What is dead may never die.
Damn the number of comments is insane. I never knew Sansa was so popular.
Both Sansa and Greatjon theories debunked?
Ah well. Give me Theon in front of Brantree then at least.
Luka Nieto,
The two don’t really negate eachother. Especially considering that we know Littlefinger will be going to King’s Landing in the midseason (probably without Sansa, since that would make no sense at all). THAT pretty much confirms that the whole tour-of-the-Vale stint ends throughout the season.
Okay… I found something really strange.
Does someone know where does this Jon Snow picture come from?
http://www.lydogbilde.no/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/GOT504_072814_HS_DSC_0935-1600×1600.jpg
We’ve never seen people dressed like that at Castle Black. Who are they? Simply recruits, one must assume? Still, it’s definitely new, from Season 5, isn’t it? How come we haven’t seen it before? Or am I the only one?
This Russian site is the earliest source I could find, from January 30. Few other sites have picked up on it. But it’s obviously an official promo picture, isn’t it? Curiously, the link I provided (though not the original Russian source) is the largest available, and the name specifies it’s from Episode 4.
Luka Nieto,
WOTW tweeted that a few weeks ago. And I saw it on the GoT menu page on the HBO site. It’s from s5.
Greenjones,
Oh, so I am behind on this. Okay, that makes more sense.
Honestly I don’t know what Sansa’s plot will be. I could make a pro or con argument for Sansa in Winterfell. Pros being it would dovetail and streamline several plots in ways that would work to amp up potential conflict and audience investment. Con being I don’t see it working with LF characterization and it would make it difficult to move Sansa back to where she should be at the beginning of TWOW.
That said I’m flummoxed by Stannis even being part of the argument. Stannis doesn’t make it to Winterfell until the very end of Dance and only catches Theon at the end and fArya’s presence at that capture is basically a non issue. It would be possible to have Theon and Sansa parting ways before Stannis capture if that would cause future problems. Basically, I don’t see Stannis as a significant obstacle.
And if one were of a mind to, it would be possible to have Sansa and preserve the fArya and Theon plot. A big hunk of the Theon plot was Theon not blowing the cover of fArya. No reason Not blowing Sansa’s cover as Alayne couldn’t work with that. If LF came up with the plot of a fArya and sent Sansa as Stark coach for the poor victim and then Sansa run across Reek… Well it could be written. I still have problems with the characterization of LF letting go of his pawn by stocking her with Boltons so I don’t know that I believe the Sansa in Winterfell plot just that some of the arguments for why it’s impossible don’t convince me that it’s impossible.
I am intrigued by someone’s comment about subbing Brienne for a spear wife.