Nathalie Emmanuel and Aidan Gillan, who played Missandei and Petyr ‘Littlefinger’ Baelish respectively, are but two of the latest Game of Thrones cast members to go to bat for the show’s ending and criticize the way some fans reacted to their dislike of it.
Before discussing the ending proper, Nathalie Emmanuel addresses Missandei’s own ending, which also caused a bit of a stir, especially regarding the optics of this black former slave being executed in chains at the hands of Cersei, in a narrative-motivated move to further isolate Daenerys and motivate her following actions. The actress, however, sees it quite differently, finding agency and power in Missandei’s death:
“I was very grateful for the strength that she had when she left. That was a performance choice for me,” Emmanuel tells TVLine. “I was like, ‘She’s not going to be crying. She’s not going to be stereotypically scared.’ She’s scared, but she owns it.”
“This woman survived slavery. She knew that she might go to war and die. And she’s owning it like a badass bitch. And I felt like that’s what I did. I was very proud of it.”
As for the end of Game of Thrones and the reaction to it amongst some corners in the fandom, in particular that infamous petition asking HBO to re-do the ending, Emmanuel is keen to emphasize that “it’s totally fine if you don’t like something”, that it’s “perfectly acceptable.” That petition, however, she appears to find insulting: “What I didn’t like was that people were signing a petition. You can’t ask for receipts on art. You just can’t. The art has been created for you, and you can either choose to like it or not.”
Regarding her personal opinion on the final season and the finale, Emmanuel was “blown away”, as it was “a hard plane to land,” she says. “I don’t think people quite realize the undertaking and the amount of manpower it took to do that.”
In a similar vein to Gemma Whelan’s recent statements, a cast member suspected by some conspiracists to have hated the ending has come out and debunked this notion, which was not so much based on reality as on these fans’ need for validation. The Targaryen crew –especially Emilia Clarke, Nathalie Emmanuel, and Jacob Anderson– were the main focus of this, so it’s nice to see one of them dismiss it so clearly.
On November 25 of last year, Aidan Gillen was awarded with the Bram Stoker Medal of Cultural Achievement by the University Philosophical Society and, as part of the ceremony, he took part in a a long Q&A that’s only been made available recently:
Very much like Emmanuel, Gillen shares his musings on the toxic reaction to the ending by some people, as well as his personal opinion on season eight and the finale:
“There was a lot of flak about the last season of Game of Thrones. I was astounded,” he begins. “The mentality there’s nowadays, when people go on Twitter, and slag the fuck out of everything; I really hate it… It’s a really nasty strain of behavior… For people to turn on the writers of something that people had adored for seven seasons in such a nasty fashion, as they did, I was really taken aback. I really was.”
“I thought that some of the best scenes, the best sequences, of Game of Thrones were in the last season. I don’t have any doubt about that,” Gillen underscores. “They ended it the only way that they could end it; which was strangely reminiscent of how it began: there’s people sitting in this land which seems to have some kind of stability, but there’s also uncertainty and threat, which is, I suppose, what the world is like all the time.”
That’s not to say he doesn’t have suggestions of how it could’ve been better: “There was a part of me that wanted it to end about twenty minutes before it did. It’s just that it was an image that was so fantastic–the dragon flying away, carrying Daenerys Targaryen–that was stunning. I thought the episode before was fucking amazing, too.”
“Nathalie Emmanuel and Aidan Gillan, who played Missandei and Petyr ‘Littlefinger’ Baelish respectively, are but to of the latest Game of Thrones cast members to go to bat for the show’s ending and criticize the way some fans reacted to their dislike of it.”
Two
Signed Stannis Baratheon, King of Grammar.
“What I didn’t like was that people were signing a petition. You can’t ask for receipts on art”
Didn’t she give this interview way back in July of 2019?
Either way, I think the petition was juvenile and unnecessary, regardless of what you thought of the ending. I didn’t much care for the ending, but I’ve made my peace with it.
D&D forced them to say this /s
“What I didn’t like was that people were signing a petition. You can’t ask for receipts on art. You just can’t. The art has been created for you, and you can either choose to like it or not.”
Hell yes, Nathalie. Hell yes! Say it loud and be proud!
“I was very grateful for the strength that she had when she left. That was a performance choice for me,” Emmanuel tells TVLine. “I was like, ‘She’s not going to be crying. She’s not going to be stereotypically scared.’ She’s scared, but she owns it.”
“This woman survived slavery. She knew that she might go to war and die. And she’s owning it like a badass bitch. And I felt like that’s what I did. I was very proud of it.”
That ironclad strength in the face of fear and sadness absolutely came across. Heartbreaking as Missandei’s death was (one of the saddest in the series, IMO), it was tragically fitting. Nathalie’s performance in those final moments was incredible. Emilia’s and Jacob’s as well.
I can understand their disappointment. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss wrote a brilliant and magnificent final season and its pretty sad that some people can’t appreciate it because the plot didn’t go the way they wanted. But that’s fine, the true fans are staying behind Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss and behind the magnificent final season!
You have to love something a lot to be so disappointed.
Time to move on already. As someone else stated this interview was from July of 2019.
MiaMion,
I’m pretty sure WOTW already posted this article too, back in July of 2019.
https://watchersonthewall.com/nathalie-emmanuel-rejects-toxic-fan-backlash-game-thrones-season-8/
Yes, it does look like that article is dated July 2019 when I clicked the link over to it. Along with “bittersweet”, “literally”, and some other words, I wince when I see “season 8” in the title of a new article post.
Couldn’t have said it better myself Nathalie and Aiden. Season 8 was brilliant and one for the ages. Daenerys perched on top of Drogon before she turned mad is the greatest scene in cinema history and Bran the Broken as king is exactly how it should be. He has the best story and it makes narrative sense. Thank you Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, I’ll always be grateful.
Ironically since S4 people expected that Grey Worm will die. No one expected that for missandei.
mau,
Grey Worm is a sad character. He lost his Queen, his love and many of his men.
A slight variant is equally true:
“You have to love someone a lot to be so disappointed.”
I don’t know if the lady who writes the blog from which the linked cartoon comes is familiar with GoT but I thought it might appeal to the Stannis fans https://mysteryreadersinc.blogspot.com/2016/02/cartoon-of-day-pedants-revolt.html
I don’t know if it originated there or elsewhere.
Yes I know – completely off topic.
99% of the cast and crew: “We proudly stand behind D&D and the ending!”
GoT S8 haters: *radio silence*
1% of the cast and crew: “It was alright but maybe it could’ve been better in some ways…”
GoT S8 haters: “THAT CLINCHES IT!”
Another link to the cartoon I deemed worthy of Stannis attributes the joke to someone called Chris Green. https://andanotherthing.co/2018/05/speaking-of-language/
“And she’s owning it like a badass bitch.”
This. This is the whole problem, this mentality that everything has to be BADAAAASS to be better. One of the main reasons why the show deteriorated in quality over time; characters, their decisions and the plot didn’t make sense after a while because it was all motivated by (1) plot points the writers wanted to have, (2) badassdom.
Of course, each person has the right to like this kind of story, a story driven by these BADAAAASS moments and great visual effects, but saying it’s good writing (especially compared to previous seasons) is just laughable.
“slag the fuck out of everything”
Brilliant!
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
I’m going to steal that one for sure.
Hodor Hodorson,
Or some people just disagree with you. Badass? Arya for example gave up on the entire being badass thing.
I don’t know if I agree with that assessment or not, but I do think “badass bitch” is incredibly overused. “Boss ass bitch”, etc…like the word “brilliant” or “bittersweet”…or “literally”. All ridiculously overused.
It seems to be a word/phrase that’s been hijacked by feminists. I always thought feminists hated to be called a “bitch”, but I suppose it’s one of those words/phrases that carries a different definition to different people.
Mr Derp,
The only moment in the final season that could warrant being badass was maybe Arya killing the Night King. I can’t think of any other moment that could he considered badass. I don’t think Dany burning down a city is considered badass at least I hope not.
I agree on the petition part. I still can’t understand why people feel they are obliged to a redone. The cast and crew work hard for the season, I think the hardest in season 8 (which I can understand why they feel personally attacked when people disliked season 8). And I still disliked the notion of the petition. (especially when I expect that most of the petitioners are even people who downloaded instead of paying for it).
I didn’t expect this statement from you.
Agree, if you don’t love something, you don’t care and won’t be angry or disappointed.
mau,
True, I always though he would die, and she would live.
Hodor Hodorson,
I agree with this fully. Too many shows/franchises fall for the “easy action”, “bad-ass moments”, “bigger the better”. And you can only get so far with it till you become “mediocre”.
I personally held shows that show almost no action to an higher standard than shows that need to use action to make the show stick with it’s fans. For me eye candy wear of for me with reruns, while great written character-arcs and moments keep getting me back. I already watched Leftovers 4 times, Sopranos 3 times and six feet under 2 times. And it was not because of the action. They contain almost none, and they were mostly character driven storylines.
It’s much more difficult and sophisticated to write shows/episodes like that that contain no action.
Fireandblood87,
It was Nathalie Emmanuel talking about her own character, not Aiden Gillen.
mau,
hahaha so true.
Let’s not forget there’s a moratorium on the other “B” word: “br*****nt.”
Mr Derp,
Thank you, Your Grace.
Mr Derp,
They didn’t hijack the word “bitch”, they’re reappropriating it, trying to turn it into something positive, or at least take the power away from it. It’s a pretty common thing and it’s been going on for a long time. Nothing weird about it, and it definitely isn’t an exclusively feminist thing, either.
As an LGBT person, I know a lot of people who aren’t afraid to refer to themselves with words that have traditionally been used as insults or slurs–sometimes jokingly, sometimes quite seriously, but the intention is very much to take the power out of the word. It’s not something I personally choose to engage in but I absolutely understand why they do it. For example, I still absolutely despise the word “queer”, which–by definition–suggests we’re something “other”, something “weird” or “strange.” But there are a LOT of people nowadays who closely identify with that word (especially younger people who don’t know specifically where they fit in on the LGBT spectrum). Admittedly it still gets on my nerves a little whenever someone calls themselves queer or refers to the “queer community”, but at the end of the day, I accept it. I’m not interested in playing the morality police and dictating how people should or shouldn’t talk about themselves. If it isn’t offensive to them to call themselves a certain word, then it shouldn’t be to me, either–because ultimately that’s not my call to make, it’s theirs.
Ten Bears,
It was 🅱️rilliant!
The LightKing,
Here’s “brilliant.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP81fPz1ujA
Mysteriously, my comments disappeared into the ether. How Ovid of them.
Not a fan of BC (too nasal for my taste) though I don’t mind the other two ladies.
Each to their own TB but I’d take the weakest moment of GoT over that clip.
Dame of Mercia,
Alrighty then. Let’s try Maisie Williams at Abbey Road Studios.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFSEItcSfw
Ten Bears, I really like Maisie but she sounded a bit shrill on the top notes I thought. Perhaps the arrangers could have brought the tune down a key or two. One thing about having reached a somewhat advanced age I find I seem to hold unpopular opinions. I liked the original Ronnettes back in the day. Though the instances I have mentioned are two words overused in conjunction and not a single word.
As for words “bad ass” on its own, especially as a term of praise, annoys me. “Girl crush” for a straight woman admiring another woman also gets on my tonsils.
The LightKing,
If you think the fans hated season 1 because “it didn’t go the way they wanted,” then you truly don’t undestand why the fans hated it. I’m 99% sure these very fans would love this very same ending in the books, if it was done without plot holes, illogical storylines and the story was properly developed.
The “True Fans” wouldn’t just blindly support something hich was rushed, was full of plotholes. and was illogical.
But I agree. Everything else except the writing (of episode 5&6) was brilliant. The actors did a great job, the music was brilliant, the cinematography was amazing.
I also agree that some of the fans might have been too aggressive, but I guess that’s undestandable.
Azor Asshai,
In other words, a long-winded way of saying what I already said, “I suppose it’s one of those words/phrases that carries a different definition to different people”.
I still think it’s a ridiculously overused phrase that loses most of it’s meaning and impact due to it’s overuse.
Dame of Mercia,
I edited my previous comment but made a hash of my editing (sorry!!!!!) – the final sentence of the first paragraph should be under the second paragraph.
“For people to turn on the writers of something that people had adored for seven seasons in such a nasty fashion, as they did, I was really taken aback.”
That’s because it was sh*te.
Also, I’m in the camp who already thought Season 7 was in dire, dire trouble. The complaints did not come out of nowhere, nor were they unjustified. They were also focused on the real problem – the writing – not the production team, or actors, CGI artists, composers, or anyone else who clearly put a lot of effort into this. It was a massive failure at the top by D&D.
The petition may be silly, but the desire for it tells you exactly how the fans felt. “But why?” and “You’re not allowed to have an opinion” are not going to make the fans feel any better about it. Just look at the videos by Lindsey Ellis or Mauler and actually understand where this is coming from.
Uzma,
You worded it wonderfully. Now I wait for a reply that Martin will never release the books, because he can’t write without plotholes and that’s keeping him from finishing the books.
And thankfully last season was none of those things.
kevin1989,
That man was able to hammer out the first 3 books inside of 6 years, and all three of those books were solid, defined, self-contained chunks of the overall series narrative. Then after that third book… something happened. It took him 5 years to make FfC, which has the narrative content of ~40% of one of the prior books plus a whole lot of meandering filler, then it took him another 6 years to make DoD, which had the narrative content of ~50% of one of the prior books plus a whole lot of meandering filler. The remaining ~10% of that narrative is going to start off WoW, which GRRM didn’t originally intend to happen.
So… 11 years to construct an *incomplete* narrative, and GoT-SoS all had complete narratives individually. It’ll probably be another 11-12 years since 2011 to make another full narrative in the form of WoW (at least, because he’s a lot busier nowadays than he was throughout the 2000s). And now that people have, more-or-less, seen his ending (and many have trashed the hell out of it), there’s far less incentive for him to finish it.
But other than that, remember Samwell at the very beginning of 8×3 – a shaking bundle of petrified nerves? I feel like that’s basically GRRM when it comes to the ASOIAF series, ever since he published DoD in 2000 and finished essentially the first half of the story. He only has a few vaguely-defined, changeable endpoints in mind, and he just has no idea how to get to them.
Emily,
Man, if GRRM ever releases ADoS (which a betting man would wager against), then you’re gonna be in for some major disappointment when the broad strokes and major beats go basically the same way.
Farimer123,
You didn’t surprise me at all, as I said I was waiting for such a reply.
And maybe your right about Feast and dance maybe not, I won’t agree with it as I state before. But the same could be said to the last couple of seasons of GoT and especially the last, but instead of narrative they missing somethings more crucial for a story which Martin did deliver in his books: Logic, character decisions change the plot not the plot change the character decisions (could be part of logic and this is also the reason why Martin story takes so many different sidetracks because he lead his story by his characters and needs to invent outer forces to make his characters go a certain way he wants with his plot because they wouldn’t go there themselves, with the show they somehow forget the characters to get to that point, they somehow forget (about Euron’s forces 😉 )), not overusing action (Which martin skips many times over to get to the more interesting part, how characters feel about it, human heart in conflict with itself), character building over shock value, shock which the show overused could only be used once the first time you watch it. (And the point that we should have seen it coming with for instance Dany is not valid here, yes we should have seen it coming but the way the scene was constructed and written was meant as shock value not as character building, compare this to the structure of the RW or in Breaking Bad when Walter let that girl die before his eyes, or in mr robot when it was revealed what really happened in his past.)
As for that Martin has a problem with writing, the answer seems to be simple: Yes he has.
But we can all make up our own speculation why that is, I’ve seen more than 10 different reasons: The books is done, he is getting old, he doesn’t know where he is heading, he is depressed, he is not focused etc etc. And we are not GRRM so we don’t know, the only thing we know is that he is late with his book and a response of his that the fault lies with his other projects that makes it that he can’t zone into Westeros. (which is important when you read the books that the story is written from a characters POV and you feel that martin somehow becomes that character while writing, so it’s not important that he knows what he wants to happen, it’s important that he feels what is happening, that is why a Bran chapter feels different in tone than an Arya or a Cersei or a Jon.)
Farimer123,
The thing Martin states is that for the main character the endings are the same (yes and no yes and no) and the side character could be different and probably with most, don’t expect Bronn to be on the counsil in the books for instance. But he also states the road for the main characters to that ending is very different in the books. So we maybe get some road points but while the show went from Oslo to Rome by airplane, he is probably taking the boat trip around the Atlantic ocean and the Mediterranean Sea. Different journey’s with the same endpoint.
The prove is already in the sample chapters of Winds. He already released around 1/7 1/8 of the books. And the strokes seem to be 90+% not in the show. Arya is Mercy and a show is given, there is a battle in Meereen, Boltons seem to be off to a battle and that’s it. Even how those things are filled in are completely different.
kevin1989,
“… But he [GRRM] also states the road for the main characters to that ending is very different in the books. So we maybe get some road points but while the show went from Oslo to Rome by airplane, he is probably taking the boat trip around the Atlantic ocean and the Mediterranean Sea. Different journey’s with the same endpoint.”
Arya: “Where are we?”
GRRM: “Near Oslo, I think.”
Arya: “You ‘think.’ You don’t have a map?”
GRRM: “No, I don’t have a map.”
Arya: “Maybe we should get one.”
GRRM: “Just point out the next map shop you see and I’ll buy you one.”
Arya: “How far is it to TWOW?”
GRRM: “Far.”
Arya: “And you’re sure we’re going the right way?”
GRRM: “Believe me, girl, I want to get there as soon as I can. Get my royalties, be on my way.”
Arya: “On your way where?”
GRRM: “Why do you care? F*ck it, I don’t know where I’m going. I lost my way a long time ago… Might book passage across the Narrow Sea. Write about Old Valyria. Seems like a good fit for me.”
Arya: “I’d like to read TWOW one day.”
GRRM: “Why TWOW?”
Arya: “I have a good story line there.”
GRRM: “I doubt it.”
Publisher: “Seven blessings!”
GRRM: “What do you want?”
Publisher: “What do I want? The manuscript you’ve been promising me.”
GRRM: “F*ck off.”
kevin1989,
You invited a reply, and I took up your offer =)
The reason Martin’s story is taking him in a thousand different directions and seems (to quite a few readers) like a generally aimless and open-ended slog is probably because he just doesn’t know what to do anymore. How else can you explain the vastly different writing time intervals between the first three books and how much narrative ground those books covered compared to everything after the first three books? He knows there’s a city to the south called Rome, but he has no idea what Europe looks like and so he has no earthly idea how to get there. Since SoS, he has lost his way almost entirely. The last time he was able to piece together a full narrative within a book was in SoS; even FfC & DoD together aren’t really a full narrative, just the majority of one.
I have a sinking feeling that when WoW finally comes out (big if), it’s not going to end where S6 did. It may fully intend to get there eventually, but GRRM is gonna spend half the book meandering again and the narrative will be maybe 2/3 through S6 by book’s end. And people will feel like the story’s gone almost nowhere, and there will be major backlash against GRRM.
Ten Bears,
Perfection.
kevin1989,
Just out of curiosity, are you still of the opinion that it’s not going to be Dany that torches KL, but rather someone else?
Uzma,
I agree, but thankfully to Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, season 8 wasn’t rushed, had no plot holes and it made absolutely sense.
Season 1 is only so popular because it is 1 to 1 like the book and the book fans knew how the plot is. Keyword nostalgia
People in this fandom just love to complain about anything that doesn’t go their way and when they dislike something they call it bad writing or plot hole.
kevin1989,
I know that you refuse to accept that this fandom is hypocritical. I never thought that anything could ever surpass the Star Wars fandom, but unfortunately that’s not the case. You say my view about the fandom is far from reality but I disagree. I discussed with many people on YouTube and Reddit and I must admit that this fandom is even worse than I thought it is. Only hateful people who write nonsensical things and when you defend season 8 or even season 5, 6 and the Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss you get insulted.
The LightKing,
Wow! Season 8 wasn’t rushed? The characters weren’t flying from one corner to another in seconds? Even fans who did love season 8 accept that it was rushed.
And Season 1 was perfect because D&D followed the books. I meant to write season 8 and accidentally typed 1 instead. By the time I went to correct it, it told me I couldn’t correct it anymore.
My guess is, in your opinion, Ser Axell Florent was more loyal to Stannis than Davos, That Axell was a “TRUE Follower”, because he blindly followed him and accepted everything, whereas Davos stood up and called Stannis wrong where he thought he needed to be criticized. No. Axell Florent was a sychophant. That’s not something a “True Follower” would do. To not criticize something even if it wasn’t perfect.
When people invest their time and money on something, they have a right to criticize it too if they thought there was something wrong with it.
I have always stood by D&D and have defended them up until S08E03, going so far as to ignore some of the storylines that I didn’t like (like killing Barristan Selmy, ruing Stannis’s and Dorne’s storyline).
But after the last three episodes, I just couldn’t.
The LightKing,
I think it’s best that folk just agree politely to disagree about the end of GoT the show. I’m sure someone has said that before. At least the two Ds gave us the ending – I don’t think the books ending when they (hopefully) appear will be vastly different from the show. I think Dany going full metal Targaryen DOES come from GRRM (the third plot twist he told the showrunners about in the meeting they had lest the show went past the already published books). I’m not saying the two Ds are perfect but if we are being honest neither is Mr Martin though I am grateful to him for creating this story (and will be even more grateful when it finishes). I read somewhere that Dany is supposed to spend much of WoW wandering with the Dothraki. I did like Book Ser Barristan but I was grateful that the two Ds speeded things up a bit. I know some folk say the meanderings of AFFC and ADWD will pay off in the end and if they do I will readily acknowledge that fact.
The LightKing,
How is the fandom hypocritical?
In one episode, One Dragon can’t fight 10 ships and runs away.
In the next episode, that very dragon, in the very same situation attacks hundreds of ships and magically avoids every single one of them?
Dany who is mad at Cersei, instead of killing Cersei, kills a lot of people Cersei doesn’t give a da*n about?
Dany, who was just talking about Cersei and Euron just forgot about Euron in the next scene?
Also, to make it look like Dany was starting to go mad, they showed that Tyrion and Varys were horrified that she killed traitors and didn’t show them any mercy, when every other single ruler has done the same in the past. Tyrion even had a man chopped and made into a soup.
Varys who claims to care about the realm regularly plots dethrone a king/queen. Starting a war is to benefit the small folks? And he hadn’t even set foot in westeros until Aerys brought him from the free cities, and suddenly he only cares about the realm?
Does anyone know if the preview chapters of WoW are new chapters or chapters pushed back from ADWD? I read somewhere that they were the latter. I wasn’t that taken with the preview chapters as I’ve said before (my opinion). If (and I can’t be sure that it’s true) Dany is going to spend half of WoW traipsing round with the Dothraki then I’m not too keen on the idea of that. I don’t mind her travelling with the Dothraki – but not for half or most of a book (unless there are relatively few Dany chapters in WoW).
Off topic – to those who commiserated with me over the death of my 16 year old cat last October, I have just adopted a 10 year old she-cat. I’m glad to have something good happen because I’d had a break-in just under a fortnight ago and am down a MacBook (admittedly a secondhand one).
Uzma,
Season 8 wasn’t rushed, what are you talking about? The characters didn’t teleport. That’s simply not true.
Of course season 1 was perfect. It followed the book and if something is not as in the books or it does not fit in your personal view and wishes then it is bad as you have just admitted it yourself.
I bet if there weren’t any books and Game of Thrones was a pure creation of Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, then none would have complained about barristan, dorne or stannis.
Uzma,
Daenerys was completely surprised and in shock. She had to get herself and Drogon to safety because everything was going so fast.
It was a completely different situation in Kingslanding.
1. Daenerys was prepared.
2. A dragon can obviously fly very fast and as we have seen it takes several men to turn the scorpion and it also takes time to reload. That is an immense disadvantage.
I want to remind you of Yoren from Season 2 Episode 3. What did he say again? “He never liked crossbows because it took so long to load them,” which is exactly the same as with Daenerys and the Iron Fleet. What is so difficult to understand about it?
https://youtu.be/644yICFua_w
3. Daenerys didn’t forget about Euron, she just didn’t expect it. She didn’t know that the ships were equipped with scorpions and that Euron would dare to attack them.
4. Everything about the Dany tiwst was said. It makes perfect sense!
The LightKing,
Dany forgetting about Euron aren’t my words. They are D&D’s. And I agree. IF there weren’t any books, and GOT was purely D&D’s creation, people probably wouldn’t have complained this much. But the truth remains. The books were GRRM’s creation and were brilliant, and as long as they followed the books, the show was perfect too. The plotholes started when they started going off-book. I still defended D&D because it was GRRM’s fault for not getting the books out on time until S08E03.
And if D&D are as great without the books, I guess we’ll see it on their Netflix show about World War II. (That’s what I’ve heard)
As for the crossbows, I agree that they take time to re-load. But they were already loaded. and were shot from all the directions. And Drogon was HUGE. It’s impossible to miss him when thousands of arrows fly at him from all directions.
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree here. It’s totally okay if you liked the ending and I didn’t. 🙂 I’ll wait for the books to get a properly developed ending, it doesn’t matter if it’s the same ending, at least it’d be properly explained.
And GRRM has already said the ending will be different. We know Stannis won’t kill Shireen. It’s probably Mel and Selyse who will burn her at the Wall.
I know Bran would be king but Bran seemed like one of the main and really important character in the books. He won’t be ignored or be less important as he was on the show.
I still believe Maggy the Frog’s prophecy (about Valonqar) would come true and Jaime or Tyrion would Kill Cersei.
Iul,
True, but that doesn’t excuse juvenile behavior. Disappointment is always a risk when you become a fan of a television show, book, or movie. I’ve been disappointed in several series finales, but I didn’t demand a redo. I simply moved on.
Hodor Hodorson,
I thought the writing in season 8 was on par with the previous seasons, and I haven’t seen a well thought out argument to convince me otherwise. A lot of good shows have badass moments, but they, like GOT, don’t rely on them to be high quality.
kevin1989,
That’s a little harsh. GOT didn’t have lots of action in order to hang on to fans but because the story they were telling demanded it.
Uzma,
You are so very wrong. People disappointed in season 8 are complaining about the what, not the how. All you have to do is go onto YouTube, Reddit, IGN, etc. to see it. They wanted the White Walkers to be the final threat, wanted Jon to kill the Night King, wanted Danerys to be queen, wanted Jon to be king, wanted Jaime and Brienne to be together, etc. True fans would support a show that stayed true to its story and characters, like GOT did, rather than criticize it for not resembling their fan fiction.
Words like plot hole and rushed are misused so often by this fandom, they have lost all meaning. Season 8 was fast paced, not rushed, and I’m willing to bet you don’t know what a plot hole really is.
Yes, some fans were so aggressive that they issued death threats against D&D. You find that understandable?
kevin1989,
I’m surprised you think they worded it wonderfully, considering everything they said was wrong.
Uzma,
Fast travel has always existed in this show since season 1. Rushing has to do with story, not travel times. Season 8 was fast paced, not rushed.
Many of the changes D&D made were for the better.
Uzma,
Danerys had just lost Rhaegal and her army was being ambushed. She needed to retreat in order to regroup.
Danerys was mad at the citizens of King’s Landing too. She was expecting them to fall in love with her and rise up against Cersei. They didn’t, so she declared them to be “not innocent.”
Danerys didn’t forget about the Iron Fleet. She discussed it that very episode. She was ambushed, plain and simple.
Robb took prisoners without executing for not bending the knee. Hell, even the Lannisters took prisoners. The Tarlys were defeated. They were no longer a threat. Not only did she burn Lord Tarly alive, but his son as well.
Finding a great ruler that would bring the realm together would benefit the Seven Kingdoms greatly and is worth the cost of war.
Uzma,
It doesn’t matter what D&D say. All that matters is what is presented in the show. In the show, Danerys was ambushed. There is no indication she forgot about the Iron Fleet.
The first three books were brilliant, but unfortunately, the books went way downhill. Feast and Dance were simply terrible and could very well have obliterated any chance Martin would finish his story. The show, on the other hand, has maintained its quality for the full eight seasons.
Martin said the main plot points will be the same, but the road getting there will be different. I guess we can take some solace in that, but it would be a much better read if I didn’t already know the ending.
Uzma,
“I don’t think Dan and Dave’s ending is going to be that different from my ending…”
🙄
Assuming that GRRM ever even finishes WoW (which becomes increasingly unlikely the more I look at how his writing has been going since SoS), I think it’s safe to assume Stannis is not gonna be a player in ASOIAF’s endgame. He’s going to burn his daughter, and D&D have said that twist is from the big man himself. Stannis is gonna die at Winterfell, or shortly thereafter. Probably not personally executed by Brienne, but still, he’s not leaving the North alive.
Uzma,
At Dragonstone, Drogon was charging them straight on and would’ve gotten killed if he hadn’t flown away. At KL, Drogon waited for just the right moment, flew out of the sun so the ships couldn’t aim for shit, and dive-bombed from above so even if any ship could see him, they couldn’t aim high enough to hit him. Adding to that: the scorpions are super heavy and take forever to reload. And with every scorpion Drogon takes out, the danger decreases. And once Drogon was in their midst, the fight became close range, where the long-range ballistas are at an immense disadvantage – no time to aim before Drogon’s right in your face blowing your shit up.
Dany’s decision to torch KL had virtually nothing to do with Cersei; she was doomed anyway, and Dany’s thoughts were far beyond anger at just one person. Besides, the soldiers surrendered, and the civilians had to (not that they had any authority in the matter), but Cersei herself never did. She didn’t give any order to have the bells rung.
So, from mentioning the Iron Fleet a few times weeks earlier, Dany was supposed to expect that Dragonstone, her ancestral stronghold and safe haven, was going to be hiding a mini Ironborn fleet armed to the teeth with new-and-improved ballistas? Still makes more sense than when Stannis kinda forgot about Tywin, who was at Harrenhal 2 days away from KL with tens of thousands of Lannister troops, and did absolutely nothing to hinder Tywin’s potential reinforcement in any way. And that stuff with Tyrion and the soup – when the fuck did that ever happen in the show?
Please look up the word “traitor” in a dictionary. Then ask yourself: how the fuck were the Tarlys traitors? Did they side with Dany and betray her? No, they already had a queen. Rewatch that scene between Tyrion and Varys in 7×5 – Tyrion is clearly on the defensive. What else could Dany do with Randyll? Idk… maybe… not burn him alive alongside his son? Even the maesters, who are very impartial to everything (too impartial when it came to the WW), were horrified, as any sane people would be. Tyrion quickly acknowledges the immorality of Dany’s actions and confronts her later: “Perhaps the father needed to die and not the son. Perhaps they both needed time to contemplate their mistakes in the solitude of a cold cell. There was no time to discuss their possibilities before you ended their possibilities.”
So what if Varys grew up in the Free Cities? So did Shae and Talisa, and like them, he holds no allegiance to his home city. Varys has been going on and on about his loyalty to the realm and the people since like S1. Where were your complaints then?
It kind of depends on who you ask.
The Tarly’s betrayed the Tyrells. All of the lords of the reach owed fealty to the Tyrells.
However, the Tarly’s were also being loyal to the person sitting on the throne in King’s Landing, Cersei.
However, Cersei crowned herself queen without going through the usual succession plan at the time, so her legitimacy as queen was certainly debatable.
In the end, Randyll did what he did because of the opportunity for personal gain.
Mr Derp,
The Tarly oaths of fealty to the Crown undoubtedly superseded their oaths of fealty to the Tyrells.
And just what was the usual succession plan at the time? She was Robert’s Baratheon’s lawful wife. His children were all dead, as were his brothers, so Cersei as the next-in-line makes sense. There was literally no other option in the family.
She was announced as Cersei of House Lannister, not Baratheon, so she did not take the crown in the Baratheon name.
This should’ve caused quite a bit of chaos in Westeros. However, everyone was strangely ok with what Cersei did.
Mr Derp,
She controlled fewer than half the Seven Kingdoms, so no, everyone was not strangely okay with what she did.
Ten Bears,
XDXD
Farimer123,
Cersei destroyed the Sept of Baelor and killed the peoples’ beloved High Sparrow. Given how poorly the people were treated and how invested they seemed to be in the High Sparrow to make their lives better, his murder should’ve created some kind of uprising from the people, IMO. Or, at the very least, Cersei should’ve been much more unpopular than she ended up being. However, it didn’t seem to have any affect. If you recall in season 6, Jaime actually cancelled his plan to stop the High Sparrow because he was afraid of a rebellion from the common people. Why didn’t the people have this same attitude after the HS died?
Normally, the citizens of KL don’t care about the games that the high lords play, but maybe they should start caring, considering it affects who’s ruling over their lives. I thought their reaction to the death of the High Sparrow should’ve been different. He was the only champion of the common people that obtained enough power to actually do something about the situation. Of course, he abused his authority too, but the common people loved the High Sparrow. The Sept of Baelor was also considered a sacred place. It was strange that there was little to no reaction to his death from the common people. That’s really what I mean when I say everyone was strangely ok with what she did. Cersei took out the common people’s perceived best hope for change, yet nothing happened as a result.
Most of the kingdoms that she didn’t control really had no interest in taking out Cersei.
The North had no interest in taking out Cersei. They were interested in their own independence. They obviously didn’t approve of what Cersei did, but they weren’t going to do anything about it.
The Vale also could care less about Cersei.
The only ones that wanted to actively get rid of Cersei were the Reach and Dorne, both of which didn’t want to do anything until Dany came along.
Farimer123,
And I’m glad you took up that offer. 😀
But if he doesn’t know what to do anymore, how did he tell D&D what will happen in the next 2 books? The show was based on the storyline of the books if I’m not mistaken. So it seems that GRRM knows where he wants to go with his story, or did the show just invent things and are we getting another ending in the books? I mean stating he doesn’t know and that the books and show have the same ending seems to contradict itself.
About does he know where he wanted to go with his books? I think the first 2 books are a given that he does indeed, he even set up the storylines of Dorne, Iron Island and Young Griff there even when they were not yet introduced yet.
As for why he takes that long, he already have that answer: He is busy with other projects.
Do I agree with his work-attics: No, but what can I do about it, we still need to wait no matter how we feel about this.
Back to the question you state why it took that long after book 3. Well book 4 is a given with this. He started writing the books with a 5 year gap, I don’t know how many manuscripts he had written but it was quit a lot. So he already almost was on schedule, then problem 1 occurred: at least one storyline didn’t work with the 5 year gab, who knows which one that is, I personally don’t really care. So he changed his plan to not show those stories through flashbacks but we really will see them. So he started writing Feast again, but he found out that he already had to many pages, so the split happen. The time for Feast is explained.
Now Dance, here he got 2 problems the first is, what to do with Dany when everyone is getting towards her, but he solved that. The second is, because Feast was the shortest book, we got the problem of the ending of Dance, so he needed to solve that problem, where to cut every storyline, I suspect he even alter some parts.
Now Winds, as he state he had too many projects. And I think the same problem occurred which occurred in Dance, those 200/300 page ending.
The thing with Feast and Dance is that there is indeed a narrative, but the amount of storylines doubled. So that means that the narrative takes 2 times as long.
As for SoS, I don’t understand why people keep telling that the narrative was much better in that book than Feast of Dragon. Look at for instance Arya, how many chapters did she get in those 2 books, and how far has her story progressed. She is pretty far into her training which suppose to take years. Compare that too SoS where she took 4 chapters to get to Beric. Or Sansa and Tyrion which got their storyline only at the end of the book, first was only about: The marriage.
My suspect is that Winds end roughly where season 6 ended but not fully. I suspect that Dany will go to Westeros but she will not arrive till dream. Jon will be back at Winterfell and alive preparing for the dead. The wall needs to fall at the end of Winds as the cliff for the last book. So there is where the books are faster. Kings Landing storyline has already have a resolve. The Lannister storyline is over. Arya is back in Westeros.
The thing with Martin is, he has 2 types of chapters: The fast one, Arya, Sansa are examples of the last 2 books, few chapters big leaps. And slow chapters, like Dany or Jon in dream.
But first winds need to get out, so we need to wait a while is my guess.
Farimer123,
I think she will be responsible, but the clues are already given. Why do you think Feast and Dance prepare us that Euron (one into Dark magic) will get his hands on a dragon?
And my money is on that the woman Damphair saw in chains by Euron in his vision is in fact Vyserion. Remember Euron on the Iron Throne was in that vision.
But this would have been too much fantasy for the show, as D&D already stated, they didn’t want to much fantasy in the show. (which if we take that the books will indeed go that way, the city is torched by Euron’s control of a Dragon by dark magic, and the consensus of the people is that Daenerys is too blame, it is her dragon and she torched the city. And D&D needed to solve the fantasy problem that occurred here, no dark magic in the show. They needed to eliminate the magic element of that twist. Meaning no Euron taking control of a dragon. The only logical way would be that Dany herself torch the city to get to the same ending.)
The books will be more fantasy in the end, Martin even stated we get lots of Fantasy creatures (With a horror vibe of course in his books), we got Krakens already confirmed in the books, and we even get Unicorns (I suspect a horrific version of a Unicorn, not the sweet kind, and it will be of course at Skagos).
But if the books will indeed go with Dark Dany, I wouldn’t mind at all, she is not really a fan-favorite of mine, and I couldn’t care less that she will die in the end. The only thing I find interesting with her is her strange memory in the first book that occurred again the fifth. But then I wonder if the books will indeed not go to Dark Dany, how will you look at this, with the knowledge that Martin doesn’t read what is said online, and doesn’t change his plans so this was already his plan from the beginning. Will you still love his way if it’s done right, or would you directly hate it because it was different from the show?
That wasn’t a petition, it was a temporary brainfart started by hate-infused hobos who were probably mad because they couldn’t rent a dragon as the local Walmart…
Yeah…
The LightKing,
I don’t go to Youtube or Reddit, so I really don’t care about what they say there. I only go on this site and on this site people aren’t hypocritical. So probably out there there are fans who overreact how bad season 8 was, but that’s not here on WotW, at least not with the die-hard people who comment here.
But at the same time I saw here some stuff from people who loved the show that I really had shaken my head, where people who even state 1 problem with season 8, got personally attacked and called names (like: hater or other things). And I’m still astonish that some feel that famous people are above others, they can’t be professional criticize, but the average Joe can be called whatever for stating they didn’t like the last season.
Dame of Mercia,
From DoD except the Arya chapter if I remember right and maybe the Damphair.
As for Dany I suspect her journey to Vaes Dothrak will be different. She has Drogon next to her when she meets with the Dothraki at the end of Dance. She will ride him, the biggest horse they have ever seen (for comparison), I suspect that they will directly follow her.
Why does she goes to Vaes Dothrak: I suspect because of her visions. To go forward you need to go back. I suspect she will learn something there about her past (and future). (and to get her people of course). So I suspect she will get 2 or 3 chapters before she will be back in Meereen. But I suspect she will return just after the battle is won.
And I’m happy you get a new companion. Is he or she already settled and at ease at your home?
Uzma,
Well the thing is, my friend and partner never read the books and even they state season 5 till 8 were below par compared to the first 4. I was the one that state that it was not that bad and keep on talking about GoT to them (till it drove them insane XD).
the only thing that I know is that Benioff wrote a book, that the Last of Us (my favorite game) took inspiration from, which for me Benioff gets praise that he made the Last of Us possible because of it.
Young Dragon,
I don’t agree with it, for instance with the taking of Winterfell they could have come up with an interesting plot that didn’t involve a battle. Their focus in season 5 and 8 was: To get bigger. It was even hyped that way, the biggest battle is coming, GoT filmed the longest battle, GoT is the first TV show to get a battle of this scale.
Do I like the battles yes, they are amazingly done visually. But I personally am not a action person. I like the characters and the unique way of telling the story.
Many shows fall into the action-trap eventually. The problem only with: Bigger. Is that at one point it gets too big for it’s own good. Supernatural is an example of that, which the end villain sounds great on paper but in the end I’m not feeling it (when I felled the villain of season 5 if you watch the show you know who, I felled more, and also this villain is even more daring than what GoT did with Dany
).
Young Dragon,
We have to agree to disagree then. You have your view, I have mine. I respect yours.
Young Dragon,
As stated before, season 8 was slow paced. The prove is: How long does it take for 1 scene or 1 segment of scenes. Episode 8×02 is already prove of slow pace. The fireplace scene. Or the after party that took 30+ minutes. If it was fast paced the after party would have been max 5 minutes. Same with the burning of KL would have had a 5 minute scene for a fast paced season. It was not fast paced, it was slow paced.
Season 2 is fast paced, many short scenes, but many of short scenes in the season.
So the only thing is, is it rushed yes or no, with rushed the problem lies in the glue of the story. It doesn’t focus on that glue that holds everything together, for the people who didn’t have the problem the season is not rushed, for the once that did it is rushed.
Farimer123,
Well I put my money on that Stannis won’t burn his daughter. Stannis is close at winterfell. If the Bolton’s indeed win (like the show), Stannis can’t burn his daughter because he is death. And if he wins (which is not in the show), he could probably burn his daughter.
But why it’s already a given that he has nothing to do with it is the following:
1. Patchface: stating he will take Shireen under the sea. My 2 cents is that he saw Shireen death in a vision.
2. Before Jon got Stabbed, Mellisandre is gone, so is Shireen, and a tower is burning (the one of the Lord Commanders if I remember right). I bet that here Shireen is being sacrificed in that fire.
And GRRM didn’t state that Stannis burning Shireen is one of his twists. He state Shireen will be burned to death. He never state who was responsible.
Mr Derp,
Somehow Cersei forgot she was a Baratheon. (By marriage)
kevin1989,
Didn’t you say you wanted the war with the White Walkers to contain several battles, not just one? Maybe I’m misremembering. And no, when you’re setting up a major conflict between the greatest army Westeros has ever seen and an all powerful, supernatural enemy, you need to have a battle worthy of such a conflict.
The Long Night was a massive accomplishment. I don’t think they were trying to hold on to their audience, I think they were patting themselves on the back.
I agree about Supernatural. Season 5 was my favorite.
kevin1989,
It’s not an opinion when the poster you agree with is spouting falsehoods. He said fans were perfectly fine with the ending but criticized how we got there. That isn’t true. He said season 8 is rushed. That isn’t true. He said season 8 was full of plot holes and is illogical. That isn’t true.
Now I’m confused. First, you call season 8 rushed and now you’re calling it slow paced? No, pace has nothing to do with scenes, but with how fast the story progresses. In season 8, the story progressed really fast and was therefore fast paced.
kevin1989,
I have often pointed out that my view about the fandom is based on discussions from Youtube and Reddit and not from this site. Since you are not reading comments on youtube and reddit you can not understand what I mean. Now I avoid youtube and reddit because my soul can’t handle it anymore. I am looking forward to my rewatch then I will make my final judgment of every season and episode.
Young Dragon,
No, I said I wished it was resolved in a couple of episodes, not perse per battle. More episodes doesn’t mean more action.
And depends, the WW problem could also resolve in another way that is not focus on one big battle. Ending the big bad in an battle fashion is always the most easy and mediocre way to end a villain. Yes there should be some action. But there should be a way to end the WW conflict that is a bit more unique compared to other stories, this is not a Marvel show. So for me I rather had 2 battles of 20 minutes than one big of 80. Where those 2 of 20 could contain a bit more “something we never see before in another movie/series.”
And if Martin also end his WW story through big battle I will be very disappointed in Martin himself. If it’s just the same old trope as always used.
Young Dragon,
1. The fans on this site were fine with the ending, but not the way it got there. Many expressed that, and you can’t try to twist their opinions to make a point, that doesn’t make it true what you state. Of course out there there are people who indeed complain about the What, but the majority is the how. Why do you think that many people write things like: If they made Dany’s decline like this, or 2 seasons it would have stuck and be great.
2. Well see above, season 8 is indeed rushed. And slow paced. (not fast paced as many seem to think, for that I would advice to look into the difference between slow paced and fast paced. Shows like sopranos are slow paced, shows like Supernatural fast paced. And how fast does the plot moved with that fast paced show? Not that fast isn’t it, still it’s a fast paced show how it’s written.
3. Well there were plotholes but I’m not going to recite the list again and over and over again. Even above there was one given about Drogon almost die one moment with 2 or 3 bolts at one time, and the next he evade 100s. (more a continue error than a plothole), there were also plotholes about events from the past that were wrongly recited in season 8, like they forgot what happened in season 1 till 7.
4. Yes pace has exactly to do with the scenes.
https://www.writersdigest.com/writing-articles/by-writing-goal/improve-my-writing/7-tools-for-pacing-a-novel-keeping-your-story-moving-at-the-right-pace
Go to the part about scenes: SHORT CHAPTERS AND SCENES. Short segments are easily digested and end quickly. Since they portray a complete action, the reader passes through them quickly, as opposed to being bogged down by complex actions and descriptions.
Short segments, end quickly.
That means not a scene of 30 minutes. That’s not fast paced, but slow paced.
And the rest also tells what season 8 brought that it was not fast paced. It clearly states short scenes, many after each other. That we got a whole episodes as build up for a battle, and a whole episode of 80 minutes of a battle, already showed it was not fast paced.
A slow paced story can still progressed fast narratively: Peaky Blinders for instance. Only contain 6 episodes for a whole season. And a whole storyline unfolds there, with a big changes compared to the one before. Still every episode has a slow paced storytelling.
The LightKing,
Best thing to do is just ignore. I can’t understand if we have a problem with some extremes we keep giving them a reason to become important. Just ignore those YT guys and Reddit guys, are they worth it? Better stay here and have a civil debate with mutual respect. 🙂
Uzma,
From one corner. They literally showed them trave6to Dragonstone. They were at Winterfell, Dragonstone, and Kings Landing. The first 4 episodes were mostly in one location. Season 8 was paced way better than season 7.
The Fast and Furious franchise really needs to die, it’s become the Slow and Onerous.
kevin1989, the cat is reasonably well settled but she’s not really a lap cat though she does like to be stroked.
There was someone on Reddit who thought anyone who found merit in season 8 was a low-tier fan (or they were low-tier fans – I’m going from memory). I haven’t noticed people who were okay with the show ending being acidic to the same degree though maybe I didn’t come across the worst pro-show ending comments. When it became obvious that at least some of the fandom disliked the ending of GoT and read what some people were saying I knew I hadn’t lost my marbles.
Pigeon,
Considering that if he were a real life person James Bond would be over 100 years of age now, I think it is time he took retirement.
Agreed, although granted Jimmy B isn’t the same “person” with each incarnation, but I’m about done with it as well. To be fair, I love Daniel Craig and prior to him didn’t really pay much attention, but seriously Bond must have superhuman joints or something. I’d also be happy if the Marvel universe went away now, and Disney remakes too, but we don’t always get what we want in life. 🎻
Dame of Mercia,
I have my reasons why I think season 8, was great while many other people just repeat something they saw in a youtube video. Dragon Demands, Preston, Ideas of Ice and Fire, it is obvious that these guys hate the show and Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss and want to turn as many people as possible against the show. I never saw something like that in any other fandom.
Farimer123,
It doesn’t work that way. The Tarlys’ oath to the king only works via the oath of the Tyrells. If the Tyrells break their fealty to the throne, the Tarlys are obliged to follow.
Of course that is an ideal situation. Any of the lords might withdraw their fealty and support one or the other contestant. In this case, since the Tyrells broke their faith and the Tarlys didn’t follow, they betrayed their overlords, but the Tyrells didn’t win, so the Tarlys found themselves on the winning side and reaped the fruit of their betrayal (Sam’s dad was named Warden by Cersei).
Dame of Mercia,
I think the Cat will enjoy his stay with you 😀
As for those reddit-fans, personally I don’t see them as fans, else they wouldn’t have the need to tell some are not fans. Same counts otherwise, I remember somebody on this site who doesn’t go here anymore, I’m not going to give a name but I think many know who I’m talking about, stated that anyone who didn’t think season 8 was perfect isn’t a real fan of the show. He even stated that a fan would love it all and would not have a single complained about the show. That extreme is on both ends of the spectrum, unfortunately both groups have the bigger stage and are noticed more than the average fan who is just more moderate at their opinion. And when somebody attacks the writers personally or other fans I won’t take them serious anymore.
Mr Derp,
Cersei destroyed the Sept of Baelor and killed the peoples’ beloved High Sparrow.
Well, seeing as there was no National Board of Inquiry into the matter, who exactly determined that Cersei was responsible? She lost her uncle when the Sept fell, after all. Her last child also died that day, so if she was responsible, the Seven surely punished her. There can be as many opinions about this as there are drunken tavern-dwellers.
The people whom the High Sparrow championed were drifters and other hopeless charity cases, not the hard-working masses or guildsmen or other solid citizens of King’s Landing. (He actually seemed to despise craftsmen, even — or perhaps because — he had once been a successful one.) Furthermore, the Sparrows were dim and arrogant fanatics, who actually made life worse for many persons in the city. There’s no evidence shown on-screen that any working people liked having the Sparrows around, or missed the Sparrows after their own gods failed to protect them. (Note how Baelish’s taunting, insulting condemnation of the Sparrows sailed right over Brother Lancel’s thick muscle-head.)
The LightKing,
Well. Why do you think they hate them?
• Speaking only for myself, I felt some parts of S8 were great and some were not. That I may have been somewhat disappointed that the show didn’t conclude with its “best ever” episodes did not erase all of the enjoyment I had watching 73 episodes over eight seasons. (At some other time I may use as an analogy my favorite baseball player’s MVP season to describe what I mean.)
• As for other sites and sources you mentioned, there’s no shortage of vitriol on the internet. Some other sites (I won’t name them) are essentially troll farms for anonymous circle-jerking armchair quarterbacks to spew venom, as opposed to engaging in civil discussions with thoughtful criticism (like we do here).
That “Dragon Demands” guy sometimes makes cogent observations, but they’re buried in and obscured by overly long videos in which he: repeats the same criticisms over and over (e.g., that the showrunners were preoccupied with the actors’ facial expressions, rather than their dialogue); goes out of his way to remind everyone that he edits the GoT Wiki; and can’t seem to resist taking personal potshots against the showrunners. I’ve tried to slog through some of these hour+ videos without success. After listening for a while, they just become a cacophony of venting and bloviating, and I get a f*cking headache.
While there are a handful of reviewers that provide balanced, thoughtful assessments of the show, too many of the videos on YouTube are diatribes with variations of the same one-sided themes: “The show sucked!” or “D&D are hacks who butchered [“GRRM’s masterpiece”] or [insert character’s name here].“ It gets tiresome.
• Just once, I’d like to see one of these self-professed “experts” who thinks he or she could have done a better job, write his or her own scripts and post them online for the fandom to critique.
P.S.:
• For what it’s worth – as many of us have stated in the past – the showrunners were hampered by the unexpected absence of source material once they passed the books; they had signed on to adapt GRRM’s saga, not finish it for him.
• I have also come to suspect that as the show became a worldwide phenomenon (and the budget and expectations increased), the two already-weary showrunners had taken on too many responsibilities, e.g., producing, supervising, budgeting, and scriptwriting. In hindsight, perhaps they should have delegated some of those responsibilities.
Hiring a team of talented writers to staff an expanded writers’ room, instead of relying on themselves (and to a lesser extent, Cogman and Hill) to write scripts, might have avoided the “echo chamber effect” that often creeps in when writers are in their own bubble and there’s nobody around to inject fresh perspectives – or to spot supposed “plot holes,” continuity problems, and the dreaded (and often undeserved) criticism of “lazy writing.”
I can surely understand why they would want to retain full control instead of farming out tasks to others. After all, they had created the most popular, most critically acclaimed TV series on the planet. Who can argue with success? Why not go with what got you there?
On the other hand, who wouldn’t be physically drained and creatively exhausted after nearly a decade of producing a show on time and within budget, year after year? It’d be understandable if they wound up cutting narrative corners, overlooking logical gaps, resorting to cliches, and relying on “spectacle,” without realizing the resulting changed in the tenor and allure of the show.
There are aspects of the final seasons with which I was not thrilled, e.g., dredging up the cliched “mothership” device (killing the alien leader deactivates all of his drones) as the key to defeating the WWs; turning Bran into a weird bystander whose superpowers (and Sam’s book smarts) weren’t critical in defeating the AotD; the silly wight hunt plan and the equally silly S7 LF vs. Arya vs. Sansa plot; neutering Jon Snow; draining Tyrion and Varys of their intelligence and eloquence; cutaways before long-awaited reveals; and anything involving that cackling clown Euron.
Still, those “misfires” were outweighed by the aspects I thought were well-done. I also have to acknowledge that the showrunners did not have the luxury of rewriting scripts or re-shooting scenes that “didn’t work” – unlike a novelist with unlimited time to revise, edit, or start from scratch.
I have to assume that like in any human endeavor, especially in the arts, it’s unrealistic to expect anyone to stay at the top of his or her game and keep cranking out top-notch work product year after year. [Off-topic example: I remember when my music aficionado older brother, who didn’t stop raving about Fleetwood Mac’s “Rumors” album, burned their follow-up album “Tusk” in our backyard because it was so awful. But I digress.🤐]
Isn’t it only reasonable to expect that the showrunners couldn’t keep firing on all cylinders, especially after they had to fabricate from scratch the “connective tissue” between where the source material left off, and the pre-determined ending GRRM had imparted to them years earlier?
Even the author himself has apparently run out of creative steam, or for whatever reason, has been unable or unwilling to wrap up his story (for… how many years has it been?)
Bottom line: I’m not so sure it’s worth debating any further whether S8 was “br****nt” or disappointing. It can be neither – or both.
– End Rambling –
(Sorry…)
Thank you, Ten Bears!
Good said!
Ten Bears,
I second cos alpha — nicely worded, Ten Bears 🙂
Farimer123,
kevin1989,
Thanks!
Kevin’s analogy about the show and the books taking different routes to the same destination was apt. And with George knowing the ultimate destination but not having figured out how to get there after all this time, I wondered if he ought to have tried to map out his sprawling story – to avoid going off on extended detours or getting lost wandering down side roads. (Some book readers feel he’s lost his way and can’t find a way to get back on track.)
From there, I couldn’t help but remember Sandor & Arya snarking in S4e3 [link below]*, i.e., Sandor admitting he wasn’t quite sure where they were, only that they were “far” from their destination – and Arya suggesting maybe he should get a map.
* (First 1 minute and 12 seconds of this 6 minutes, 21 seconds scene in S4e3: Arya & Sandor; & Farmer and his daughter aka Rabbit Stew Sally)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AXZi0mdAbM
Admittedly, that entire 6 min., 21 second segment is one of my favorites. I’ve watched it so many times that the dialogue is etched on my brain. In addition, the encounter with the farmer and his daughter and how it ended – with Sandor, the “Worst sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms!,” justifying robbing the farmer because “they’ll both be dead come winter” and “dead men don’t need silver” – resonated throughout the rest of the show, including scenes in S4e10, S5e6, S7e1, S8e1, S8e2, and S8e4.
Anyway, Sandor proceeding without a map and not quite knowing where they were, only that their destination was “far” away, seemed like an appropriate metaphor for GRRM’s predicament. I didn’t have to change too much of the dialogue. 😎
Ten Bears,
Yarp!!!!!
kevin1989,
It’s classic fantasy convention to have a final battle for the future of humanity; and GRRM is indeed a fantasy writer. He picks and chooses which conventions to obey and which ones to ignore. He really likes LOTR, and he’s said he wants his ending to be sorta like it, complete with a “Scouring of the Shire” after the big final battle. We got that in the show in the form of 8×4-8×6.
Remember, GRRM did tell D&D the broad strokes and major beats (GRRM might know what’s going to happen but he has no idea how to go about it, imo). If “the WW force their way south of the wall, make it as far as Winterfell, have a giant battle, and are defeated there” isn’t a broad stroke/major beat, then what is?
Ten Bears,
I’m almost 100% certain that GRRM has totally lost his way. I say this because *we’ve seen* what it looks like when the writing of ASOIAF is going smoothly: three excellent solid books, well over 2K pages combined, with so much narrative ground and twists and turns covered, basically the first half of the story originally planned for six books, hammered out in just six years.
If he wanted to have the story relax and sprawl out more in its second half, then of course some more time between each book would be natural. But then it took five years for FFC alone, then another six years for ADOD alone, and together those two books cover roughly the same amount of narrative ground that one of previous books did. That’s a 550% increase in writing time for each full-cast-spanning narrative!
And he’s splitting books because of plot problems and length problems, missing deadline after deadline after deadline, and his intentional focus on anything else besides ASOIAF. It’s so obvious: something went seriously awry for GRRM in writing this series after the early 2000s, and his heart’s just not that into it anymore. It’s self-evident from his sprawling, subplot/detour-filled writing approach in the last two books: he’d much rather just explore the world leisurely than advance the plot to the endgame proper.
Ten Bears,
Well, I have nothing to oppose. I don’t agree about the what you called “misfires” but that’s your opinion.
Ten Bears,
You make some very good points about the fact that the shworunners could’ve been burned out and maybe should’ve hired some more writers to help them bear the burden.
On the other hand, the same argument can be used against that claim. If they were indeed burned out, they would’ve hired other writers to take away some of the workload from them – they could’ve done that and still be the showrunners that get most of the merit! Yet, they preferred to keep doing what they wanted to do from the beginning: write the series by themselves! I can only applaud them for reaming committed to the project.
Similarly, you could use the same argument to say that GRRMartin SHOULD hire other writers to help him out, since he’s also burned out. Why is it OK for a book writer to keep writing the book by himself and not OK for a couple of showrunners to keep writing the series by themselves?
Ten Bears,
I also second this Ten bears.
Ten Bears,
Thank you.
But I think George has some kind of road map in his head. The same route map he told D&D that they used for the show. The only thing is that George tells his story through his characters and doesn’t want the “Character X acts stupid now to get to plotpoint B”. So he needs to make a detour to get that character to get to that plotpoint logically.
As for the “He lost his way”. The thing is all those that people state he has “lost his way” was already set-up in book 1 and 2. Dorne was set-up with Myrcella getting there, and once again in book 3 that we know that we would go there once Oberyn was dead, everyone that though that we wouldn’t see Myrcella and the aftermath of Oberyn’s dead is not paying attention. Especially when Doran was make so mysterious in the third book (Tywin told Doran was the only man he feared, Tywin didn’t fear Oberyn).
Iron Island was also set-up in the first 3 books. We saw background with Theon about his uncles and his sister. We got the 3 leeches scene, in book 3 there was told that something was happening in the Iron Islands but we didn’t read it yet. It was set-up. Everyone who read book 1 till 3 knew this storyline was coming.
Many other stories were also set-up in the first 3 books like Young Griff and Jon Connington, with my reread I saw many hints that this storyline was always happening. House of the Undying was one of them.
LSH was also revealed at the end of book 3 so we knew she was getting into play, Brienne with merely 5 chapters got to the point where LSH was a big player in the books. (compare that to for instance Arya that had in SoS that many state is narrative tight was traveling for 4 or 5 chapters to meet Beric)
And that also count for many storylines where people say he took detours, they were set-up in previous books.
As for my point about “martin lost his way”, the only way he lost in my book was that split he did those 2 books. Reason was: So both books could have a beginning middle end for character X. Well that’s true for feast, but not for Dance, he pushed the problem to a next book. I think he could have better have had a feast that ended halfway through every storyline, and had ended Dance with where he original ended things. Especially with some characters there were more than one break point that could have happened.
Farimer123,
But is this story classic or something new and unique? And true there is always a battle, but there was also that the big baddie wasn’t defeated by “killing one guy and kill them all”. There was always a way to end the big baddie that wasn’t part of the battle. Harry Potter had the “love protection” & the reveal of the deadly hallows & Snape, the battle focused on that not the battle itself. Lord the rings didn’t end in a battle the battle was 15 minutes before. It ended in a non-battle fashion.
And if you want to know how martin does it, I suggest you to read all his books. I read them all (except the ones from the last 3 years), Sandsnakes (small story), Dying of the light are for instance 2 that Martin shows how he ends his stories and his villains.
GRRM is not a fantasy writer, if you say that you only have read asoiaf. He has written drama, fantasy, science fiction, horror and more. What these stories have all in common is the mystery, character driven storytelling, and that every story has a way to make the mystery a bit horrific. He has indeed a theme in his books, but that is not ending with a battle.
He said he wanted to end like lotr as in: Bittersweet. He didn’t talk about that he wanted a scouring of the shire. He even state that he missed the whole “Tax policy” in the LotR. So expect that we see the king rule in the books.
Everyone knows that GRRM told D&D the broader strokes, he also stated the journey’s to those strokes would be different. And it doesn’t matter what we think what takes GRRM to finish it’s books. It matters what GRRM tells us what the reason is, which he did (other projects), so we can all speculate about why, but 80% of us is wrong with the many speculations that is happening.
The major beats is that the wall will fall and the WW get south. Battle with the WW. Defeat of the WW. You could fill that in 100 ways.
Look for instance at the broad stroke: Cersei’s capture and walk of shame, and how we got there. Or how Tyrion meets Dany which is much later in the books. Or jaime leaving Cersei which is later in the books.
Off topic but referencing franchises or acts which it wouldn’t hurt to retire – I heard on the news that the Rolling Stones are going to do some touring again this year. Now I’m from the age group that was around when the Stones were the band one’s parents used to hate but even in the early 2000s a UK paper featured an article “Would you let your grandma go with a Rolling Stone?” (in my youth it was “Would you let your daughter go with a Rolling Stone?” – not that I mixed in such circles to ever get a chance to meet a Rolling Stone). I groaned at the idea of the Stones touring but it’s a free world and if people want to see them it’s not my place to tell them shouldn’t buy tickets for the concerts.
Now back to ASOIAF. Kevin, I think GRRM is illogical sometimes. I mean book Gendry never tells LS that he had been in touch with Arya. A commenter said that Gendry didn’t know LS all that well but still, couldn’t he (Gendry) have mentioned it? Book Doran was the mastermind who was so intelligent he never told his daughter what his marriage plans for her were. Littlefinger in his book and show manifestations has the reputation of having something of Machiavelli about him but was everybody in Kings Landing so thick that they couldn’t see through him? Not even Tyrion?
kevin1989,
-About the Iron Islands/Dorne being set up in the first three books: you’re right, but nobody says Martin has lost his way because he introduced those subplots. The argument is that he lost his way because of HOW he handled those subplots. There was no need to have several POV characters for each of these subplots, nor for that many chapters. One single POV character could’ve done it. Or instead, an existing POV character could’ve travelled there (the way the show did with Jaime going to Dorne or Theon going to the Iron Islands). Or he could’ve used a prologue character to handled all that in a single chapter (which he tried to do, actually).
My point is, you could still use those suplots that were set up in the previous books without needlessly complicating the narrative by introducing many new POV characters who demand their own chapters and their own sub-subplots.
-About Arya’s many meandering chapters in book 3. It’s all about how the storylines are balanced. ASOS is very fast paced because there are many storylines that advance significantly in a very short time. On the contrary, some of the lesser storylines don’t advance as much. Bran, for example, only has 4 chapters because there isn’t much story for him. Arya has 13 chapters because Martin enjoys writing her more, even though many of them could be combined and condensed. Anyway, Arya’s story is still a lesser story in that book, which advances the OVERALL NARRATIVE through many of the major storylines.
On the contrary, most of the storylines of Feast and Dance are meandering, but there are almost none that advance the narrative effectively.
Dame of Mercia,
About Gendry: Who says that he didn’t tell LSH about Arya? Or that he is not about to? We only see Brienne’s POV not Gendry’s POV. We only saw 1 chapter with Gendry in Feast, so how do we know what they have talked about? And especially with Brienne now there (which we cut after what happened between Feast and Jaime I from Dance) there could have been talk about Arya with LSH.
About Doran: Look at the Dornish Masterplan theory and it comes clear why he never told his daughter the plan, and what Doran’s real plan is (probably?), we are speculating about something that we can’t know until we see where this storyline leads. And why would Doran tell the plan to marry her to Viserys when Viserys died? What would have been the point of that? There’s also that he keeps a lot to himself for a reason, if more people knew about it the more people could get it into the open. Quentyn’s storyline should also show what Doran’s real plan was, it was not an alliance with the Targaryens, it was an alliance with “dragons”. Dany is just a means to an end to get the dragons. And personally I had a feeling that Doran was giving his daughter a lesson in the feast storyline. So maybe him not telling his daughter was a lesson that he learned her (she changed for the better after it). And I also have a feeling that he still doesn’t tell his children the whole truth. The plan he told Arianne seems to be different than the one he told Quentyn. We all have the assumption that he cares for his children but what if he is just using his own children for his plan?
They saw through him, nobody trusted him, but the thing is they all filled in what they think LF wanted and made their own plans accordingly of it. They gave him lordships etc, the thing is they also needed him. But the real question is, does LF really want the Iron Throne or power? His actions in the books seem to show he wants it but at the same time not. Then we get some information through Sansa’s POV, his connection to Braavos. So what does LF really want? I think even the book readers were played by him. We all think he wants the Iron throne, I say that is not what he wants. It’s either he wants to topple the system and wants a system into place something like capitalism, LF is the richest man in Westeros, but at the same time nobody respects him because he wasn’t born a lord. Look at what he does and it seems that this seem more logical that he wants. Another thing is that he maybe is working for the Iron Bank, his actions made it so that Westeros is in big debt to the Iron Throne, that means they need to repay it, that also means they need to pay interest, in the end this result into the Iron Bank having all of the riches of Westeros. We also know that LF is “stealing” money from the Royal account. Tyrion state there is money missing and that LF did some strange things in his calculations.
So the thing is that people suspect LF for the wrong reasons, they alter their plan to keep LF in check, but because he wants something else their plan don’t work.
What LF also did right was that even when people suspected him and know what LF was up too, he offered them something so he could keep them in check. Like he did with Royce in first Sansa chapter of feast, they have more to gain to keep the lie of LF alive.
At least that is how I look at it. I think many believe what GRRM want us to believe right now, but I think that something else is going on with Doran and LF and their plan is different than what we think now it is.
oierem,
– I agree half with what you say, the thing why we got multiple POVs is also why we got multiple POVs of the Starks, to give us different perspectives of what is going on. For instance Arianne sees Tyene as a sweet girl. Areo sees her as one of the most dangerous woman out that that people should be scared about. I also don’t think it was that many chapters. Dorne got 4 in Feast. Iron Island 4 or 5. That’s not much.
– What I agree with is that I wish Feast only gave us two POV of Dorne (Arys and Arianne) and one of II (Asha), in dreams they could have introduced Victorion and Areo. And Damphair only in winds. But I think all were needed eventually to give us different perspectives about certain events.
– I don’t think the an existing character should travel there. People forgot that books and shows always need a new main character every season/book. Even if it’s just one. We didn’t complain when we got Davos, Theon, Samwell, Jaime POVs but we did with the new in Feast and Dance. So I don’t see the problem with introducing new POVs especially when we already were introduced to Asha (as a side character). Arys was also already introduced as a side character so made sense that he introduced Dorne.
– And true too many is not good, I had a hard time getting into Feast and Dance the first time around, now I love those chapters. It was too many at the same time for me. And now winds doesn’t give us a new POV so he could have introduced those new POV more gradually among Feast/Dance and Winds.
– But Arya in SoS is in fact a slow paced storyline. She does just one thing in a chapter of 10+ pages. Where in Feast she does 2 major things in just one chapter. Her story is much faster paced in those books. But Dany and Jon are slower in Dance compared to SoS. And Bran is much faster paced than many other characters in SoS. He only got 4 chapters as you state but got from Winterfell to meeting almost Jon to getting behind the wall. But the same thing happen in Dance, he only needed 3 chapters. And Arya only needed 4/5 in Feast. Same as Sansa only needed 3.
– About narrative: Try to make a summery of all the books that explain everything that is important to know for the bigger picture of the story and all the storylines. If you do that you see that Feast and Dance has much more narrative than we initially see. I did it a while back and those 2 books had more lines than the first 2 books, and was only a little shorter than the first 3 books. The second book had the least amount of narrative of all the 5 books. (4 if you count Feast and Dance as one big story).
– It effects a lot those 2 books even when we don’t really see it. As above try to make a page where all the changes plot and character per book are written, you see that those 2 books have more change than for instance CoK.
kevin1989,
I count Feast & Dance together as ~90% of a story. A fair amount of stuff that’s going to be in Winds was meant to be released earlier. So really he hasn’t constructed a start-to-finish full-cast-spanning story since 2000.
You know something’s gone awry when before he was writing these books (each one representing a complete cast-spanning story on its own) in just two years apiece and suddenly it’s taking him decades to produce just a single set. It’s like his writing has become… constipated. Or he just fell out of love with his established cast & plot and just wants to explore the world he built.
Farimer123,
EDIT to my last comment since by attempted edit didn’t go through apparently:
kevin1989, you’re right that none of us are GRRM (unless one of us secretly is 👀), so none of us know for sure what’s been going on between him and ASOIAF for the last 20 years. But just speaking as an outside observer, I can make my best guesses.
kevin1989,
-We got multiple Stark POV characters because the Starks are one of the three main families (the other two are the Lannisters and the Targaryen), and because many of them are the main characters of the whole story (as Martin stated, ASOIAF is the story of Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran and (possibly) Sansa). Every other character and family are secondary to the story.
Now, don’t get me wrong. Even though a narrative will always work best when it’s streamlined and doesn’t have too many irrelevant subplot, I would be perfectly fine with the sprawling narrative of Martin, including all these irrelevant characters and chapters, if Martin would be able to finish the story. However, the fact that it seems literally impossible that he will finish the books is something I can’t ignore, and I can see the main problem very clearly: his sprawling narrative structure and his gardener approach. He has allowed the story to grow too much, and now he can’t tame it (I would be happy to be wrong about this, but I’m afraid I’m not).
-Each book doesn’t “need” a new POV character. Martin originally wanted to tell the story with just 8 POV characters (the chore six plus Ned and Cat), and in a way, it would’ve been easier if he had just done that. Right now he has more than 15 POV characters alive, and that’s something that is really difficult to handle.
kevin1989,
I rely on your explanations about what G has sought to set up in his books. I am at a disadvantage. Except for a few snippets and famous passages, and the “Mercy” sample chapter, I have not read the books yet. I am reluctant to start reading, since I fear I’ll find myself left hanging, along with millions of other disappointed readers who’ve been waiting…and waiting…
Anyway, regarding your comments:
”But I think George has some kind of road map in his head. The same route map he told D&D that they used for the show….”
***
“As for the “He lost his way”. The thing is all those that people state he has “lost his way” was already set-up in book 1 and 2…”
• A “map in his head”?
I liked your analogy about the books and the show taking different routes and different modes of transportation to reach the same ultimate destination because (I thought) it presupposed that GRRM really didn’t have a detailed road map his head; nor did he share the “route map” with the showrunners. In terms of the road map analogy, I’m sure G probably told them about landmarks to look out for along the way, major tourist attractions to be sure to visit, and the final destination. However, I thought the showrunners were pretty much left to their own devices to navigate their way from where the unfinished source material left off, to the final destination(s).
Am I wrong?
From what I can tell, G takes his time (and maybe too much time) to tell his tale with intricate plotting, and through characters whose actions and decisions are understandable, even if mistaken. I thought his favorite “avatars” are cerebral, creative thinkers (like Tyrion, Varys and Sam?) – unconventional heroes who rely on brain power rather than brute strength to survive and succeed. (I’m trying to remember Tyrion’s S1 explanation when Jon asked him why he reads so much. Tyrion said something like the mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone.)
What I’m getting at is that I seriously doubt GRRM (or his characters, as he portrays them) would devise the wight hunt plan, the mothership device/WW vulnerability, the Bran Bait Plan, LF’s S7 WF scheme and LF stupidly confessing at a trial by ambush, and other narrative expediencies on the show. Also, from what I gather, the showrunners “mixed and matched” some stray book subplots to provide some post-books show material (e.g., borrowing Book! Manderly’s Frey Pies to give post-Braavos show! Arya something to do in S6, and then grafting book! LSH’s House Frey extermination story for show! Arya at the beginning of S7).
Further, the show completely jettisoned almost all of the books’ mysteries and prophecies, leaving them unresolved. I have to question whether G would carefully construct all of these riddles and cleverly worded prophecies, only to discard them without explanation or resolution. The same could be said about Bran’s warging and green seeing superpowers, and the self-sacrifices of other characters because it was so supposedly crucial that Bran survive. All of that amounted to zippo on the show. Surely such dead ends weren’t part of any GRRM “road map.”
I admit this is all rank speculation by a non-book reader (me) that these are all indications that George did not have a detailed road map in his head, and (with the exception of a few “tourist attractions” along the way like the Hodor/Hold the Door reveal), did not provide a route map for the showrunners to use. Instead, they had to navigate their way to the destination on their own without a “map” (or a “map shop” where they could buy one. 😎)The major plot points on the show to bridge the gap in G’s incomplete story did not seem to have the author’s “fingerprints” on them.
Am I mistaken?
• About the observation by some book readers that G “lost his way,” I’ll have to defer to you – and other book readers.
As you observed, events in the show’s early seasons based on the first two or three books, set up later developments in both books and show.
I’m just extrapolating from readers’ comments that after the first three or four books, G introduced so many new characters and new storylines in far-flung locations that he kind of “got lost” and is having difficulty finding his way back.
Some readers have praised the show for at least streamlining some of the meandering storylines in the books, and getting the main characters in place for the “endgame” by the end of Season 6, i.e., all converging on the same place.
By contrast, those readers also describe G as getting “lost” after traveling down side roads and taking detours, with his main characters still stuck in different places all over the planet.
The impression I get is that despite G elegantly setting up future developments in his first few books and foreshadowing potential conclusion(s), he’s since wandered off and gotten “lost” in that he cannot seem to be able to chart a “return trip” that logically contracts all of his disparate storylines and proceeds to the saga’s ultimate resolutions and conclusions.*
* [Somebody once commented – half-jokingly? – that G should either: (a) Employ the show’s “Dornish Solution” and just pull the plug on some of the side stories and euthanize extraneous characters; or (b) With so many moving parts and separate storylines, instead of trying to figure out how to reposition all of the pieces on the board, go with the Cersei Solution and simply flip the board over, e.g., blow up a bunch of characters all at once. Apologies for the digression. 🤢]
In any event…
I have to surmise that G left the showrunners hanging and did not furnish a road map, because he himself doesn’t have one. (If he did, and wanted to save it for himself… that would be f*cked up.)
Whether the show deserves praise, criticism, or both for its final seasons, at least the showrunners were able to do something that has eluded Big G for so many years: Finish.
Dame of Mercia,
Ooh! Lemme briefly weigh in on your off-topic commentary about dinosaurs like the Rolling Stones going on tour…
• My “newsreel crush” Grace Slick stopped touring with the Jefferson Starship many years ago because she felt it was ridiculous for old geezers to be prancing around on stage. (I’d have to get her exact quote.) Unlike Mick Jagger and his bandmates, she hasn’t dyed her hair and tried to stuff herself into tight leather jeans.
• My only exceptions for “legacy” acts are:
– Roger Hodgson, former lead singer of Supertramp. He sounds better than ever. I’ve been wanting to see him for quite a while. He’s been playing sold-out shows throughout Europe for several months.
– Tommy James (of the Shondells), because my older brother played their records over and over when I was a toddler to the point that their songs were hardwired into my DNA. Besides, Tommy James is really good and everyone has been covering his songs, from Miley Cyrus to Joan Jett.
– The Turtles, although I think one of the two leads has been ill and they may have recently stopped touring. Same as above re: my older brother and hardwiring.
kevin1989,
Show! LF turned into a doofus.
Farimer123,
Agree with that. For me it doesn’t matter that much because I see the whole saga as one big story, not perse per book. But it’s true he made a huge mistake with the split. With the split Feast became a merely 700 page book which he should have made a 1000 page book. Same with Dance. With that he wouldn’t have the problem with winds again where I suspect at the end he suffers the same mistake, where do you end the book? And it will probably result into getting 3 books of 800 page instead of 2 books of 1000 pages.
The split also made the problem of the newer stories, they became too big in feast I have to say, if he didn’t split the books those stories would have added gradually (and better I must say) in the story.
I think with Feast he could have ended Dorne with only Arys and Arianne and the introduction of the plan. (In which I think we would remember characters like Darkstar better which took me 2 or 3 reads before I knew who he was), Dance could have been the execution of the plan and the tower of the hand and Quentyn. Areo hotah could have introduced in winds as a POV because Arianne was going away, so I think Areo chapter in dance should have been Arianne’s.
With II I think Feast should have been only through the eyes of Asha as we saw in Feast and end it with the Kingsmoot. Then Dance could have been what we saw in Dance with Asha and Victorion introduced with the shields and his journey to Dany (the shields could have been a flashback sequence in a chapter). And Damphair could have been introduced in winds where for me he only get’s interesting, I loved that chapter but not so much his feast chapter.
With YG we could have seen him in Feast through the eyes of Tyrion as we saw in part 1 of Dance. And in dance introducing to the Jon C chapters.
So I agree that Feast and Dance had an overload of POVs, which I personally love new POV but when it gets too much it could feel too much. And that’s also a shame because I love new POV but now we won’t get a new one in the next two books.
Ten Bears,
The show omitted a lot of the book’s prophecies and mysteries from the very beginning. It held on to some of the most crucial and juicy ones, like Jon’s parentage, Dany’s (and Bran’s) visions, *PART* of the prophecy that Cersei received from the witch, and a few smaller ones.
But as GRRM has stated many times: the show is an *adaptation*, and it needed to adapt to its medium, and that meant condensing, cutting, trimming, and simplifying. The writing in this show has always been simplified compared to the books (except for later seasons because it was the show’s writing compared to… nothing on GRRM’s end), but writing is all GRRM has to worry about. As showrunners, D&D have to worry about fifty million other things, and in exchange, we television viewers receive the fruits of their labor along with those of all the cast and crew.
The first three books all focus on the same six characters (Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Tyrion) plus a few more who come and go (Ned, Cat, Davos, Theon, Jaime, Samwell). All of those books are solid, well-defined, self-contained, and well-received. And GRRM hammered them out from 1996-2000.
Then… it takes GRRM another five years to make Feast, which only has Samwell, Arya, Sansa, and Jaime as recurring POVs. It introduces POV Cersei and Brienne (okay fine), but also introduces not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, but SIX new POV characters with whole new plots that threaten to pull the narrative every which way. Then, another six years for Dance, and that book does a somewhat better job by having far more character POVs we’re actually invested in, but it still introduces FOUR more new POVs. And it doesn’t even really have much of a climax, like he wanted to include it but it got pushed to the next book. I think we all know most of these new characters are not going to mean much in the endgame, otherwise they would’ve been introduced or at least hinted at in a substantial manner much sooner. Like, one of them was a Greyjoy who had the hots for Dany, then he just proceeded to get his stupid ass burnt alive by her imprisoned dragons, and that’s the end of him – who the hell cares? As good ol’ Walder would put it: “give me one good reason why I should waste a single thought on any of you.”
oierem,
I agree half with that of course, but I think that gardening is not perse adding new storylines, those storylines are introduced no matter what. I think his gardening is only that some stories take a detour before arriving at a certain point. Like for instance with Arya in SoS where we get some amazing chapters before arriving at Beric.
I also hope he will finish his story of course, but for me what makes this books so great are the side tracks he takes, it always feels fresh for me. Without it I think I wouldn’t have loved the books so much. And I still am of opinion that those side-tracks are important for the bigger picture, depends on why, it could be that they were needed for a certain character development, for some storylines that began in the beginning (Jon’s past, Dany’s past, Targaryen history etc) or that they become main storylines.
Another show that does this a lot is Vikings, they introduced new characters all the time. Now the main story doesn’t even concern the main character of the first season, and still it’s logical that the story progressed that way. Same with this story. Beginning is Starks vs Lannister, but the story progressed, now Martells, Tyrells, YG etc are important for the main story, while the story from the beginning takes an earlier exit. (like Vikings did with some storylines).
Ten Bears,
No, he didn’t.
Ten Bears,
Well the only reason why I “know” (between “” because I really don’t) about where the books are heading, is not because I only read the books. I put the books next to many theories that are out there, and when rereading them I filter them of which are make sense and which not. Also I try to put the stories that are already in the first 5 books into a more oversight view too look where very storyline is to make sense what could he tell in the next books. Combine that with what the show gave us, combined with Martin’s other books and his theme’s there.
As for the roadmap: I think he takes detours, (like he docks at France for a while before taking back too his ship to rome). But I think he knows the bigger road map. In the house of the Undying he puts so many things that are going to happen in later books that he knows where his trip will go. He knew he would introduced YG and Jon C, and he also knew how Jon C would end his story. He also know of course the story of Jon’s past which is a recurring theme where he reveals small snippets, same as Dany’s past. And the story of LF and Varys are getting revealed gradually. He knows where he wants to end those stories. We know that 3 books were suppose to be his main story, that was GoT, Dance of Dragon (yes the story of Dance of Dragon is more important for the bigger story than SoS, SoS is the detour it shows already if you look at that Dance has information about Jon and Dany’s past and SoS not so much)
– About D&D roadmap: The thing is that they even won’t give a straight answer, one moment is we were left hanging, the next it’s, GRRM told us everything. So who knows what they knew and what not. I think personally that Martin knows 90% of what he is going to tell, but those 10% is the bigger problem. And also he envision what he wants to write, but he can’t write it “lividly”. That’s why Fire and blood is easier to write, there the story doesn’t need to be ‘”lividly” it’s written as a historybook.
– Your right about what he likes to tell about, what kind of characters. I wrote a book about Vampires (too lazy to get into my book shelve), and the main character the hero was the opposite off the general hero. He was pretty fat, far from handsome, and somebody who uses his brain. He likes characters that break the general consensus of what a hero is.
– the wight hunt plan won’t be in the books, the proof is already in his existing books. In Fire and Blood he explained that Dragons can’t go passed the wall (like the WW can’t passed it from the other site), Dragon’s are stopped there like an invisible wall is before them. There’s also the horn of winter in the books that suppose to take down the wall. This is also proof that even when the bullet points are going to be the same in books and show, the execution will be completely different. “Wall going down”: Bullet point. The way: Undead dragon vs horn of winter. 2 completely different things that cover the same bullet point.
– Martin already state his WW are more of a race like the Sidhe, so mothership device will not happen. His other books already shines a light on it.
– I think LF will go down much more different in the books, but I think it’s a given that he will go down. And I think Sansa will have a greater part in it.
Prophecies: I think the problem lies here more that D&D are more a “per season” kind of guys. They won’t introduce something 3 seasons before to being executed 3 seasons later. With the prophecies that’s exactly what should have happened. To let a prophecy stick, like the books it should have been introduced in the first season (book). Also the prophecies are more fantasy like than D&D wanted, they undid many prophecies in the house of the undying because they don’t like prophecies. It’s too magical for them. (which I think with what they wanted to do make sense: A fantasy show for non-fantasy viewers)
– I think the problem lies also that I think George’s roadmap doesn’t end with Cersei in the end, if they would have followed that map Cersei wouldn’t have outlive season 7. But for the show I think it makes sense to have Cersei in the endgame. At the same time I think that for the books Dorne, Euron, YG are more integrated in the endgame but they always wanted their story to end with the big 3 houses.
And your statement about buying a roadmap make me think about many games XD buy a treasure map to find the treasures.
About lost because of many new characters I think that’s not really getting lost, Vikings another show introduced and change it’s story more than George did with his books in the fourth season (midway of the show when counting episodes). 90% of the storylines and characters from before there stopped in season 4, and new ones arised. Now that show is also in it’s last season (split in 2 parts now part 1) and it does it much better than GoT I have to say. We even god a chosen king in this season, but the execution was done much better and made more sense than with King Bran.
Well the thing is those side stories are endgame for the books, so he can’t pull the plug on them, else the ending would fall apart. And I think he will go with the second. I think winds will delete many storylines and players from the board or at least set it up that that could happen at the beginning of DoS.
But about GRRM I think a huge problem lies also with the ones he is working with. How can it that his publisher doesn’t tell George that he should quit his other projects until he finish his books, why do they publish his other books and not say: Well we publish this after winds and Dream. And his editor should also have stated that he should have added his POV more gradually.
Farimer123,
I’m still of opinion that George should never have sold the rights before ending his books.
kevin1989,
Dude… that means we would have never gotten the show. That we would probably NEVER get the show. Optimistically, the chance of that man ever finishing those books is about the same chance of successfully navigating an asteroid field: approximately 3720-to-1.
Farimer123,
I was just looking at a chronology of the release dates of the five ASOIAF books and TWOW sample chapters. I had prepared that chronology a few months ago to help me decide whether I should start reading the books. I have held off…
As you’ve pointed out, the intervals between the books’ publication dates has increased substantially. By my reckoning the intervals between books 1 – 5 has been 2 yrs., 2 mos. > 1 yr., 9 mos. > 5 yrs., 2 mos. > 5 yrs., 9 mos.
As of today, it’s now been 8 years, 7 months and counting since Book #5 “A Dance with Dragons” was released on July 12, 2011. It’s been roughly 28-29 years since the Big Kahuna began writing “A Game of Thrones” in 1991 when he was 42 or 43 years old.
I don’t. know. Is there any reason I should be optimistic that “The Winds of Winter” will be released any time soon?
Even if it is, unless “A Dream of Spring” is written and published to bring ASOIAF to its conclusion, I fear I’ll be in the same boat: investing time reading a book series without an ending.
Look, I’ve been saying that at this stage in his life Big G should be able to kick back, scarf hot dogs and watch Jets and Giants games – whatever he feels like doing with his time.
With so many books on my bookshelf I’ve been wanting to read, I’m just wary of devoting my own time to a story without an ending.
Well, I guess you just answered my question from two minutes ago. 🥶
kevin1989,
”…And also he envision what he wants to write, but he can’t write it “lividly”. That’s why Fire and blood is easier to write, there the story doesn’t need to be ‘”lividly” it’s written as a historybook.”
Not sure what you mean by writing “lividly” Does he have to be pissed off or enraged to write ASOIAF?
Farimer123,
Well I think we would already gotten the books by now. One of the reasons why the books took that long (as he admitted himself) was his contribution to the show, he was more busy with “how his baby looked on screen” and helping etc than writing his books. The show is also one of the reasons why his other projects took off, without the show he wouldn’t have his side projects that took his focus off the books. He also was 13 years younger (they started in 2007 if I remember right) so he could concentrate more on his books.
kevin1989,
He took eleven years to write Feast & Dance combined, and for 80% of that time, the show didn’t exist, nor was it in any active production whatsoever. AND he was a lot less busy back then, so he had all the time in the world to concentrate on those books, and he STILL took eleven years. He wrote a grand total of four scripts for the show, one per season, spread out over four years. Writing those didn’t take anymore than a few months apiece.
You would have us give up the entire show’s existence just on the off-chance that GRRM *might* have gotten his act together?
Ten Bears,
with lividly I mean that you feel you are the character. When reading Arya you feel like Arya, when reading Jon like Jon etc. Also you feel like Westeros is a real place, like it lives you know. So here he needs to really live the story to write it, he needs to feel how Arya feels for instance.
With fire and blood he doesn’t need to do that. Fire and blood you can see as a History book of Westeros, it’s even stated in the books that this is the book written by one of the Maesters. So like any history book, it only contains “facts”. No feeling etc, just writing things that he needs to get off his chest. It only states events no thoughts.
Farimer123,
Well that’s not really true, with Feast it took 5 years because of one thing: After writing for 2/3 years he found himself into a corner that the 5 year gab didn’t work. So he rewritten the story. That rewritten from scratch he delivered the book in 2/3 years since he start rewriting Feast. Not 5. Then he was again into writing mode. This was 2005 when Feast was released.
Now it’s 2005 and he starts again with Dance from scratch. Then 2 years passed and he meets D&D and instead of writing then he was more concerned about the TV show. He took time of writing and helped the show takes off, even if he had a weekend off that is not enough time for a writer to get into that “writing mood”. So writing the rest of the book took more time because he helped the show take off. Then when the show took off he got more famous, he got more interviews, he got more projects (helping other writers of books wildcard saga), he had more influence so he started a charity (Which I think is still awesome). And the more he probably though: The books will be finished, but this charity, projects needs to be done now.
His priorities changed (which I didn’t like at all).
Even George rr martin knows that he would have finished the books if he had not concerned himself with those projects, that was clear in his statement where he admitted the projects took him away from the books. So yes I think we can safely assume with the information that is given to us, and especially with GRRM explanation of why the books delayed, that he would have finish the saga (or at least almost finish DoS) by now without his projects that started with the TV show.
• Ah! Not to channel King Stannis over here…
Did you perhaps mean “vividly”?
vividly (adverb): “in a way that produces powerful feelings or strong, clear images in the mind.”
• Although you have quite a mastery of English, it’s my understanding it’s your second language.
On a related but more important note, if I recall correctly you once mentioned you’re a countryman of Dutch actress Carice van Houton (Melisandre, faithful though not infallible servant of the Lord of Light.🔥 Sorry Shireen. 😢)
Do you live in the Netherlands? If so, you may have noticed in my 1:36 pm reply earlier today to Lady of Mercia I wrote that:
“My only exceptions for “legacy” acts are:
– Roger Hodgson, former lead singer of Supertramp. He sounds better than ever. I’ve been wanting to see him for quite a while….”
Roger Hodgson is going to be appearing in Amsterdam for three nights in September, 2020:
Roger Hodgson
Koninijk Theater – Carre
Royal Theater Carre
Amsterdam Netherlands
Fri. Sept. 4, 2020; and
Sat. Sept. 5, 2020; and
Sun. Sept. 6, 2020
“Roger Hodgson of Supertramp – Royal Theatre Carré Amsterdam”
[Link isn’t copying]
You should definitely go!
(If I’m mistaken about where you live… never mind. 🙄)
This is where you are, in my opinion, very very wrong. The story is, from beginning to end, a story about the Starks, the Lannisters and the Targaryens. Everyone else is secondary, and have to contribute to the story of the main characters.
We have very strong evidence to support this (other than narrative logic: in a good narrative the main characters are always introduced at the beginning and are present in the endgame):
-The show itself: once we got to the endgame, the Tyrells, Greyjoys and everyone else didn’t matter. Most of them were gone, and the endgame was about the main characters introduced in the first season/book (King Bran, Queen Sansa, Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion…).
-Martin’s plan from 1993. Even though it changed quite a lot (but still, it was written only three years before the book came out!!), he clearly says the story is about Bran, Arya, Jon, Dany and Tyrion.
The fact that you are now confusing who the main characters are supposed to be is a result of Feast and Dance messing up the narrative so much that Martin “sort of forgot” the main characters altogether. Now he has to tie up the secondary storylines of a bunch of characters who won’t be important in the endgame, and who are in the way of the actual main characters.
Ten Bears,
Yes vividly, and true I live in the Netherlands 😀
I think I know one song of supertramps but I don’t know which one. I remember I knew a song of them. But which one I don’t know (one of their most famous I guess). Probably a song used in movies a lot?
kevin1989,
In retrospect, I wonder if both GRRM and the fans would have been better off had he stayed involved with the show and continued to write scripts. It’s not as if the time he has “saved” by divorcing himself from the show’s production has helped him crank out the books.
In fact, it’s evident from his blog and journal entries during casting and the Episode Commentaries he narrated during the early seasons of the show, that he was enthusiastic about the show and had his “head” in the ASOIAF world and its characters. As you’ve noted, his own recent excuses/explanations reveal he’s been having difficulty inhabiting his characters. He had no such problems when he was focused on, and exuberant about his story coming to life on the screen.
Selfishly, I wish he would have stayed on board because I really, really liked the episodes he scripted:
2011 “The Pointy End”
2012 “Blackwater”
2013 “The Bear and the Maiden Fair”
2014 “The Lion and the Rose”
One can only imagine how the show would’ve proceeded and concluded if GRRM could have shepherded the story to its destination. We’d now have a bona fide, author-sanctioned ending, and he could ride off into the sunset without worrying (too much) about writing books.
Oh well. As Bronn would say, “if and may and could” don’t mean very much
kevin1989,
I’ll copy some links to Roger Hodgson performing live. Off the top of my head, here are some of his Supertramp songs:
It’s Raining Again
Even in the Quietest Moments
Take the Long Way Home
Give a Little Bit
Breakfast in America
The Logical Song
Dreamer
Ten Bears,
That’s just wrong if someone thinks it’s brilliantly done then that’s their opinion. Like my opinion is I think the Bells is the best episode they ever did. Just because you said it can6be possible doesn’t make it a fact.
Fireandblood87,
Wait, what?
I’m not sure … are you controverting something I wrote?
I certainly didn’t intend to pass off my opinion or anyone else’s as “fact,” so if it came off that way I apologize.
If you meant that praising S8 as “brilliantly done” is “just wrong”… you won’t get any argument from me. I think I tried to state diplomatically, speaking only for myself, that I thought some aspects were great and some were not…
Maybe I misunderstood you.
kevin1989,
“Prophecies: I think the problem lies here more that D&D are more a “per season” kind of guys. They won’t introduce something 3 seasons before to being executed 3 seasons later. With the prophecies that’s exactly what should have happened. To let a prophecy stick, like the books it should have been introduced in the first season (book). Also the prophecies are more fantasy like than D&D wanted, they undid many prophecies in the house of the undying because they don’t like prophecies. It’s too magical for them. (which I think with what they wanted to do make sense: A fantasy show for non-fantasy viewers)…”
• I understand why they wanted to tone down the magical elements.
– The thing is, while I’m generally familiar with the books’ prophecies, as a show-only fan I relied on the versions of the prophecies that were included and introduced early on.
– For example, after Melisandre’s recital of the “Warrior of Light” prophecy in S2e1 (the show counterpart to the books’ Azor Ahai prophecy), I was expecting that somehow, someway somebody would fulfill it, metaphorically or figuratively if not literally. Nope. No stars bleeding. No seas freezing as far as I could tell. No flaming sword (except for Beric’s) and no warrior drawing the flaming sword from a fire. (I tried like crazy to shoehorn Sandor into that prophecy. to no avail.) If there was going to be zero payoff, or just throwing it in to function as a Stannis misdirect, they should’ve excised that prophecy entirely.
– As for the “Prince(ss) that Was Promised,” it seemed that by the time Mel showed up at Dragonstone in S7 it got all muddled and diluted so that non-commital Mel watered it down to Jon and Dany both having “roles to play“ or something like that. That prophecy fizzled out
Unless, of course…Arya, the Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess, was in fact the prophecied Princess that Was Promised who did indeed bring the dawn. I could be on board with that. 👸🏻
However, I’m fairly certain there’s no way that’s what Big G had in mind.
– I know the show excised the “Valanqar” prophecy. Still, do you have any doubt that G will not have Cersei perish by some random brick falling on her head? I believe G framed that peculiarly-worded prophecy as a riddle, to set up a twist upon a twist. Although the Cersei-strangling “little brother” remained a “books-only” thing, I really thought the manner of Cersei’s demise would be a significant endgame event that would be common to the books and the show.
– Then again, I’m probably frustrated because I had scoured the show’s dialogue and visuals for clues to identify candidates, and formulate and update Vegas-style odds for a tinfoil Valanqar Sweepstakes.
– Sure, Jamie and Tyrion started out as the heavy 3:1 co-favorites, but going into S8 the Lannister boys dropped to the middle of the field, with Jamie at 5:1 because, inter alia, the one-handed Jamie did not have “hands” (plural) to wrap around Cersei’s throat.
– I really thought G might pull his clever “twist upon a twist” by having Cersei think it was Tyrion and having reader think it would be Jamie – when a parsing of the wording of the prophecy actually pointed to a third candidate. I had Sandor Clegane in the mix at 4:1.
– However, a surprise dark horse emerged as the 2:1 favorite: Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryean, the little brother of Rhaegar’s two sons. It all fit. Or so I thought.
Alas, all of my analysis was for naught. I never considered an inanimate object like a brick or ceiling tile. Nor did I foresee that nobody would wind up choking the life out of Cersei, or trying to kill her in some other way. Sandor, my 4:1 bet, let Cersei skip right past him in S8e5 when he could’ve easily gutted her or broken her neck, fulfilling his protégée’s mission (while snarking something to Cersei like “Arya Stark sends her regards.”)
All of the “clues” I thought pointed to Jon turned out to be incidental details in throwaway scenes. 🤬
– From my second-hand knowledge of the books and the devotion of the fandom, it seemed like this prophecy was a BFD (big f*cking deal), with the fandom intensely invested in the fulfillment of the prophecy, all kinds of well-reasoned theories floating around, and expectations that the Valonqar would be revealed by the end of the show. I guess that either George had not figured out the twist yet, or chose not to give it away. Or else maybe the showrunners opted for a sympathetic death for Cersei, rather than murder by asphyxiation at the hands of a “little brother.”
We’ll probably never know….
Ten Bears,
-It was a Stannis misdirect, at least in the context of that specific scene. She says that a warrior will pull a burning sword from the fire. Then, Stannis walks over and pulls a burning sword from the fire. *GASP* He must be the Lord’s Chosen! Stannis proceeds to finish the prayer incorrectly, then everyone buggers off except Cressen and Davos, who stay behind to unceremoniously put out the obviously not-magical fire on the obviously not-magical sword. It was to show that these people are religious nut-job cultists who worship fire. What was it someone said in the books about prophecy… something about prophecy “being a treacherous mistress that lures you in and then bites off your cock”? In a story that so often subverts fantasy tropes, including other prophecies, is it so implausible that a solid majority of all these prophecies are kinda horseshit? Or at least, should be taken with a grain of salt?
And Melisandre said all this, correct? Isn’t she the one who was so adamant that Stannis was TPWWP that she burned a little girl alive to be sure that Stannis would achieve his grand destiny? Who thereafter expressed immense guilt and self-doubt, so that even she later was all like “prophecies are… dangerous things”. The character of Melisandre is far more complicated than just being an announcer-of-prophecies-that-are-totally-meant-to-be-taken-at-precisely-face-value.
Stars bleeding? Yeah, we saw nothing about that, but what the hell does that even mean anyway? Freeze the seas? That could just be hyperbole for “this winter’s gonna be really fucking cold”, which is was essentially true, even if the seas didn’t actually freeze, so a half-truth for that bit. Dead rise in the North? Prophecy sure hit that on the money. So its record is about 50/50 so far. As for Beric, I still maintain he was easily the literal translation of TPWWP, complete with a whopping six resurrections (versus Jon’s piddling single instance) and a sword he could magically set ablaze at will. And his selfless act of heroism during the Long Night – saving Arya’s life at the cost of his own with Sandor’s help – ensured that the dawn would come via Arya doing what she went on to do later that night. At least thats my interpretation of the situation, and I don’t need any crazy mental gymnastics to make it work.
Of course, the prophecy itself – TPWWP will bring the dawn – is bothersome. A prince(ss) of what, promised by whom to whom? All we can do is shrug our shoulders. None of the usual fan-favorite candidates for this prophecy were ever princes or princesses that I can recall. And what does it mean, precisely, to “bring the dawn?” Does it mean killing the White Walkers? We don’t know; it’s all so vague and so open to interpretation. Even if GRRM has something slightly different in mind, one cannot be so rigid to think that his way is the *only* way, especially for a television adaptation.
As for the volanqar prophecy… the show never even mentioned it; what else is there to say? It’s utterly unfair to expect the show to follow a prophecy told by a witch in the woods and have said prophecy completely determine its outcome. Why the hell would Jaime kill the mother of his unborn child – for both of whom he rode all the way North to defend from impending apocalypse by ice, then rode all the way South to defend from an impending apocalypse by fire – in the process abandoning the chance for a happy life with a woman he truly cared for – after hearing that she was probably going to die anyway?! Why?! For some stupid book-only prophecy?! It’s infuriating, like all those people careening over these prophecies have never actually given the show a chance. They’ve only allowed the show to exist within the very narrow confines already set by the books, and for future stuff that hasn’t even been confirmed yet, the show better go how their fanfiction predicted it would, or else grab the torches and pitchforks!
Anyway, yeah, I’d bet good money that Jaime and Cersei will die in each other’s arms in the books attempting to escape the Red Keep during Dany’s decimation of KL. They came into this world together, they’ll leave it together. The Hound sure-as-fuck wasn’t going to kill her. He just got done telling Arya with absolute certainty that Cersei was a dead woman walking. I’m not even sure the Hound will be alive for Dany’s decimation of KL in the books. Also, if the Hound had taken even a moment to focus on killing Cersei, the Mountain was standing ten feet in front of him up the stairs, and he would have certainly slaughtered the Hound immediately, killing his brother and saving his queen with a single stroke of the sword. No way a pragmatic combatant like the Hound was taking his eyes off his brother for even an instant.
kevin1989,
1. I’m not talking about the fans on this site but the fandom as a whole, of which this site represents very little. Fans on Reddit, YouTube, IGN, etc. very much criticized the what and not the how. So, no, most of those who disliked season 8 disliked it because it didn’t end the way they wanted it to. About Danerys, if people weren’t prepared for Dany’s turn despite all the setup, they were never going to be.
2. “Pacing refers to how quickly or how slowly the action of the story unfolds.”
https://www.nownovel.com/blog/pacing-in-writing-5-tips/
Hopefully, this finally puts this debate to rest, unless you want to argue the exact definition. It’s not about scenes, it’s about how fast the narrative progresses. Season 8 was fast paced, not rushed. You can continue to say otherwise, if you want, but the facts are not on your side. Furthermore, you can’t call something both rushed and slow paced. They are complete opposites of one another.
As for the article you yourself linked, it’s right there:
“Pacing controls the speed and rhythm at which the story is told.”
This is what I’ve been saying all along.
3. Danerys wasn’t aware of how dangerous the scorpions were, so she divebombed straight at them. You see her do this in season 8 Episode 4, but she veers away that time, because she remembers what had happened last time. With dodging the bolts in season 8, she uses speed and attacks at an angle in order to dodge them. Not a plot hole. That’s not to say that there weren’t plot holes in GOT, but there’s not nearly as much as people think, mostly because they don’t know what it is. There are only a handful.
Farimer123,
”What was it someone said in the books about prophecy… something about prophecy “being a treacherous mistress that lures you in and then bites off your cock”? In a story that so often subverts fantasy tropes, including other prophecies, is it so implausible that a solid majority of all these prophecies are kinda horsesh*t? Or at least, should be taken with a grain of salt?“
Yeah, you’re right.
It’s just that some “prophecies” often have a kernel of truth to them, even if they’ve been embellished and exaggerated.
Or, they’re an author’s way to pose riddles to his readers or play tricks on characters, e.g., they’ll misinterpret the prophecy and then get blindsided when it comes true in unexpected ways. The oddly worded valonqar prophecy by Magy the Frog reminded me of the witches’ prophecies in MacBeth. (Macbeth interpreted them to mean he would be invincible. They came true, but in ways that spelled his defeat.)
• Real world cultures, have lots of “legendary hero” tales and prophecies of saviors, usually with religious overtones. I get it that a world-building fiction writer would create cultures with mythical heroes and messianic figures, e.g., GRRM’s “Azor Ahai” and “the Stallion Who Mounts the World.” Those promised saviors could very well be figments of a “prophet’s“ imagination, and blindly believing in them could come back to bite you in the ass – or elsewhere, like that “treacherous mistress” in the books. So it’s entirely possible GRRM was mocking zealots and the propaganda they use:
– On the show, at least, we saw High Priestess Kinvara and the Volantis red priestess anoint Daenerys as the Chosen One. Melisandre designated Stannis. Then Jon Snow. Then she waffled and said prophecies are tricky, and both Dany and Jon “have a role to play.” (Then.. I don’t know … did she later realize Arya was really the Chosen One to bring the dawn?)
Were GRRM and the showrunners trying to convey that anybody can be shoehorned into a savior prophecy, and that most prophecies are “kinda horsesh*t?” That could very well be.
• Another alternative – that GRRM deliberately injected bogus prophecies into his story as a way to subvert fantasy tropes – would be kind of obnoxious.
• However, it was established
that Magy the Frog was batting 1.000 in her prophecies. She correctly told young Cersei she’d marry the King. not the Prince. She nailed the exact number of Robert’s kids and Cersei’s kids, and accurately predicted that Cersei’s three kids would all predecease her.
With that kind of unblemished track record, wouldn’t it be a safe bet that her throat-choking little brother prophecy will also come true?
If GRRM was intending to subvert the fantasy trope of prophecies, why include a fortune teller with deadly accuracy?
• Don’t get me wrong. I think it was clever of GRRM to introduce a flawed red witch like Mel who has the power to see visions in the flames but frequently misinterprets them.
I still don’t know what the Lord of Light really wanted though. Neither did Beric, Jon or anyone else. I suppose the show purposely portrayed the Lord of Light as an inscrutable deity who didn’t really care too much if his transmissions got garbled or misunderstood. As Sandor put it to Beric: ”If he’s so all powerful why doesn’t he just tell you what the f*ck he wants?”
In any case, I had been looking forward to big reveals unraveling the prophecies. I can’t deny I was disappointed that the show “kind of forgot about them,” and I’m not holding my breath that GRRM will ever get around to resolving them or debunking them.
Farimer123,
“… Of course, the prophecy itself – TPWWP will bring the dawn – is bothersome. A prince(ss) of what, promised by whom to whom? All we can do is shrug our shoulders. None of the usual fan-favorite candidates for this prophecy were ever princes or princesses that I can recall.”
Arya was a Princess. First through King Robb, and then through King Jon.
I’m not sure how it works when a shortsighted king suddenly decides to abdicate or “bend the knee” to another monarch. Do all members of the whole royal family automatically lose their status and titles?
I made a chart of the TWOW sample chapters that shows which ones were actually meant to be included in “A Dance with Dragons.” Most of the other sample chapters were written several years ago. Lemme see if I can find it…..
Here it is:
“Winds of Winter” Sample Chapters –
Release Dates
(Dates when GRRM first posted on his website or blog, read at conventions, or otherwise)
According to July 11, 2017 Vulture article and other sources
https://www.vulture.com/2017/07/the-winds-of-winter-asoif-preview-chapters-everything-we-know.html
(¥ = Holdover material cut from “A Dance with Dragons”*)
_____________
¥ Theon I: Posted Dec. 2011
Tyrion I: Read at con, 2012
¥ Arianne I: Posted 2012
Victarian I: Read in two parts at two conventions in 2012
Barristan I: Included as “preview” in ADWD paperback edition in 2012(?)
Barristan II: Read at convention (along with Barristan I) in 2013
“Mercy”: Posted March 26, 2014
Tyrion II: Included in update to World of Ice & Fire app in 2014
“Alayne”: Posted April 2015
Aeron: Read at con May 2016
¥ Arianne II: Posted May 2016
……………
* Book #5, “A Dance with Dragons” was published on July 12, 2011.
Ten Bears:
Another alternative – that GRRM deliberately injected bogus prophecies into his story as a way to subvert fantasy tropes – would be kind of obnoxious.
Actually, it would be exactly in keeping with everything he’s done so far in the story. From setting up Ned as a false protagonist, to playing the trope of Plucky Girl Heroine Outsmarts The Boys for all it was worth with Dany, only to make her the final villain — it’s been his M.O. all along. (That’s why everyone who hated the ending of the show keeps insisting it’s somehow going to be different in the books — they can’t admit GRRM just played them all along.)
Furthermore, GRRM uses the device of the unreliable narrator throughout the books. All the readers ever get are various characters’ accounts of what happened — there’s no central “Maester’s Diary” (e.g. Princess Irulan’s quoted writings in Dune) to tie the narrative together with a Trusted Voice. These accounts subtly disagree with each other, leaving it up to the reader to decide what “really” happened. (Did Scarlett O’Hara really have just one child, or three?)
If we can’t reconcile what two or three still-living characters say about an event they each personally witnessed, then how the heck can we ever discern the “truth” of a prophecy which was supposedly laid down long ago, by persons whose names we do not even know?
kevin1989,
“But about GRRM I think a huge problem lies also with the ones he is working with. How can it that his publisher doesn’t tell George that he should quit his other projects until he finish his books, why do they publish his other books and not say: Well we publish this after winds and Dream….”
George and his publishers should have considered, and maybe ought to still consider, releasing what he’s already written in serialized form.
It worked for Charles Dickens. “The Pickwick Papers,” written under a pseudonym were published over 19 issues from March 1836 to October 1837. He then published all of his novels, including “Great Expectations,” in serial form first.
The public eagerly devoured each installment as it was released.
At this juncture, waiting for George to hand in one of his monster-sized manuscripts makes little sense. It might take discipline to “let go”* of a completed chapter such that he can’t go back and revise it or rewrite it. That might be a blessing in disguise, because I recall reading how he frequently trashes whole sections already written and starts from scratch: another possible reason out of many for the interminable delay approaching nine years.
I for one really enjoyed reading the “Mercy” chapter on its own when I saw it posted on his blog. If I had already read the first five books I probably wouldn’t hesitate to pay for a subscription to receive periodic installments of The Winds of Winter every week or so.
It’s possible George himself might find it liberating to release a chapter or two at a time, rather than be overwhelmed by the enormity of completing an entire 1,000 page manuscript.
Just a thought…
* Fans could bombard him with Maisie singing “Let it Go” in her Audi Super Bowl commercial if it would inspire him… 👸🏻
Fireandblood87,
I agree. The Bells is also one of my favorite episodes. Just brilliant from start to finish.
The funny thing is that people who call something bad can’t even justify it reasonably.
New Maisie Williams “New Mutants” Photograph
https://images.app.goo.gl/9YkQb8TdHvx1GAZz8
Ten Bears,
Yeah, I don’t see why we should discount a prophecy that has been accurate, in favour of one line uttered by Cersei. I think there will be a twist, she suspects Tyrion, we suspect Jaime, perhaps she has been right all along. My guess is that Jaime mercy kills her, she’ll be in a real bad way when he sees her.
The show may have left it out, but it did actually fulfil the prophecy anyway. Whose idea was it to go down the tunnel? Tyron’s. Who took her there? Jaime. Both little brothers. Look at the way Jaime holds her, his hands are around her neck, a bizarre way to hold somebody. She’s crying and she more than likely suffocated to death. Imo, Jaime was the Valonqar metaphorically speaking.
I really disliked the script and structure of Season 8, but it would never occur to me to make a request to have it redone just because I didn’t like it. I find it something very childish and egotistic to do. And after such act of contempt, how can anyone think that all the people that worked in the production of the season would accept to do it again? It’s disrespectful. It’s just like Nathalie Emmanuel says here: You cannot ask for receipts on art. You can either take it or leave it. You can just leave it without being an asshole about it, like I did.
Hot Pie to Arya in season 7, episode 2: “Heard she blew up the Great Sept.”
Hot Pie knew it was Cersei. Therefore, everyone knew it was Cersei. Come on, dude.
Where are you getting this from? I don’t recall any of this mentioned on the show. The HS gained complete control of KL in all but name during season 6.
Well, it’s hard to know if anyone missed the sparrows when the show didn’t devote any time to it’s aftermath. That was actually part of my original criticism.
You say there’s no evidence that “working people” liked having the sparrows around, yet there’s also no evidence that they didn’t like having them around either. The only people who obviously didn’t like them were brothel owners. I thought that the show made it clear as day that the HS had the approval of the common people. Again, the HS gained complete control of KL in all but name during season 6.
Mr Derp,
The official story of the Sept explosion was that it was an accident. The Mad King had left caches of wildfire all over the city.
So apparently Hot Pie “knew” it was Cersei, as did everyone? How? Did Hot Pie somehow acquire a copy of GoT S6 on DVD and watch E10? Hmm? It’s literally just a rumour. The common folk undoubtedly have their suspicions contrary to the official story, but that’s all they are: suspicions. “Do you have proof, or do you want to trade gossip like a couple of fish-wives?”
And what? You thought after severely disrupting trade, essentially outlawing brothels and even alcohol (“flooded the gutters with wine”), and persecuting anyone doing anything against their religion, that the High Sparrow and his cronies were loved by *everyone* in KL? There were a million people in that city, and aside from a vocal minority who adored the Faith Militant, most of them are probably just apathetic bystanders who were more than happy to keep their heads down and wait for it all to blow over, like how it usually is in real life whenever fanatics come to power.
Where/when was this mentioned on the show?
You’d have to ask Hot Pie how he knew considering the show didn’t make it clear how he knew. The only thing that was made clear was that Hot Pie heard it was Cersei. Olenna seemed to know as well.
There is also no proof that Jaime was the father of Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella, yet it was common knowledge in all of Westeros. I guess since there’s no proof it must not be true though, right?
It would be painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain that Cersei did it. The explosion happened during her trial. You know, the trial she failed to show up for.
All of her enemies were killed in the blast.
She wasted no time in immediately taking over KL after her son’s death.
Farimer123,
I would also add that any of the common folk thinking of rising up would think twice. They just saw a armed group attempt to rise up against Cersei and they were destroyed. Similar to real life we wonder is some countries why the people don’t rise up. The don’t because the ones who tried before were killed.
Young Dragon,
We have seen multiple times in the show that if a dragon has a rider and that rider knows where it’s targets are they’re basically unstoppable.
Ten Bears,
No problem I might have misunderstood. I have just been told by people in the past that if you think the final season is great that’s wrong. Which is impossible since it’s art and if someone loves it their not wrong it’s just their opinion.
Farimer123,
Agree about the prophecy, the show did not include the volanqar prophecy so they could deliberately change that ending. Here Jaime and Cersei could die in each others hands by excluding that prophecy. If they had included the Volanqar prophecy, they couldn’t end Jaime and Cersei they way they did.
So I would take the money of Jaime and Cersei, the thing is that the books already spoiled things that speak against the ending of them in the show:
1. The Volanqar prophecy: The Volanqar will strangle Cersei to death. I still believe this could be Jaime, but that also mean it won’t be a lovely ending like it was in the show.
2. Jaime’s visions tells us Jaime’s ending is up north. In his vision his lights gets out in the north. That could mean that he will live out in the north (the wall?) or die against the WW.
3. Don’t forget that GRRM state that the main characters ending are the same, not perse the secondary and Tertiary, he talks this about the books not the show. In the books Jaime and Cersei are secondary characters not main.
About Dany, Dany will not meet with Cersei. The books already spoiled that. She is warned and had visions about: Quentyn, Tyrion, Euron, Victorion, Jon Connington, Young Griff, Jon and Stannis. But not about Cersei. GRRM tells who Dany will meet in the future and Cersei isn’t one of them. There is a reason why D&D delayed Cersei and Jaime’s storyline for 2 seasons. Because they needed them until the end of the show while in the books their storyline won’t make it till the endgame.
The show will something that Vikings also did. The story evolved, the begin characters are making place for newer ones that arrive halway into the show, and those new ones are the endgame of the series.
About Sandor: I say Clegane bowl will still happen in the show. But probably because of the trial by combat that is being prepared between Gregor and the chosen champion of the seven, which I suspect will be Sandor.
Young Dragon,
1. Personally for me, a fan reacts on a site like Watchersonthewall or other GoT/asoiaf sites, not reddit or other sites that are mostly use for people who vent about everything. Because those loud fans of YT and Reddit etc are complaining about everything there, that’s not being a critical fan that’s being a loud-mouth about everything.
And why should you care about what they say? I mean I don’t agree with many things with my close friends about more important stuff like politics and still I’m friends why? Because people tend to think different. (Not that I would be friends with the way some reddit/yt people react but that’s not the opinion but the way they speak).
2. Did you even read the rest of the points? fast past are shows like Supernatural, Gotham, X-files, CSI etc. And even the point you give state season 8 was slow paced, I think you interpreted that sentence not as it is intended.
“Pacing refers to how quickly or how slowly the action of the story unfolds.”
Season 8 does not unfold the action of the story fast, in fact it unfolds it slowly. Episode 3 is prove of that. It unfolds the action in 80 minutes, that’s the opposite of fast paced.
So hopefully, this finally puts this debate to rest as you state and you take the statements as it is stated and not how you want it to be interpreted. Fast paced is always about how fast scenes are, ask anyone who works in Television or who writes books themselves, they would say that that’s exactly what fast paces is. Supernatural has a fast-paced storytelling but the narrative is pretty slow. Same with Gotham or CSI or other fast-paced shows. Peaky blinders (even stated by the writer) is a slow paced show, even when the narrative of that show progressed fast.
So please stop twisting words that are written to convince yourself that season 8 was fast paced and not rushed, it was slow paced and very rushed. As stated above, fast paced is many short scenes that progress the story very fast (like every comedy show is fast paced), it jumps into one scene to another, and action to the next into a very short amount of time. A great example of fast paced storytelling is Dark knight or Prison Break.
So as it seems the facts are on my side.
Rushed had nothing to do with the pacing. Rushed means that the story rushed over important things and just skip them or give them a short amount of screentime and just to be over with it. Dark knight is an example of it, it’s a very fast paced movie but it’s not rushed, every thing that needed to be shown was shown. It’s sequel is slow paced, and not rushed, it shows what was needed and the pacing was slow.
“Pacing controls the speed and rhythm at which the story is told.”
Yes the speed and the rhythm in which the story is told. Do you know what rhythm is? that has nothing to do with narrative, but in fact how the speed and rhythm of a part of a story is. So how fast was the part of introducing everyone in winterfell? Was that a whole episode or merely 10 minutes. If it’s the last your right season 8 was fast paced. How long was the saying goodby of characters before the big battle? How long was the battle with the WW itself? How was the speed of the after party of the battle? How long was the massacre of Kings Landing? All these questions could be answer with: Very slow speed, it took a very long time for that part to being told. Every part took around 30/80 minutes. Compare that too season 2 where every part of the story is a merely 5 a 10 minutes of screentime.
This could also be transferred to music. Fast paced songs are songs that have a lot of beat (dance, rap for instance) slow paced music have a slow beat a rhythm (like a ballad). A fast paced song could take more than 10 minutes with some songs (the narrative of the songs takes it time still the song is fast paced, some rap and dance songs have this), and some slow paced songs have a short narrative (some ballads take merely 2 minutes but the pace of the song is still very slow).
But I think this debate is just an endless loop where you keep on debating this even when people state facts. So I don’t really see the point anymore debating this.
3.
True agree there were only a handful, but still most of them were in season 7 and 8. That should say something.
Mr Derp,
Hot Pie to Arya in season 7, episode 2: “Heard she blew up the Great Sept.”
Hot Pie knew it was Cersei. Therefore, everyone knew it was Cersei.
_________
“HPNN: The Most Trusted Name in News”
©️2019 Hot Pie News Network
Ten Bears,
It was the younger brick that killed Cersei.
kevin1989,
”Rushed had nothing to do with the pacing. Rushed means that the story rushed over important things and just skip them or give them a short amount of screentime and just to be over with it…”
I am NOT jumping into the “fast-paced” vs. “too-rushed“ debate. However, I think your definition of “rushed” is correct.
I have not watched shows you cited as examples of “fast-paced” storytelling like “The Dark Knight,” Prison Break,” “Supernatural,” or “Gotham,” and it’s been so long since I saw a Batman movie I can’t remember if the pacing of “The Dark Knight” was fast or slow.
I will say in general that I’ve seen movies and TV shows with rapid fire, edge-of-your-seat action that could be described as “fast-paced,” without feeling “rushed,” because plot points aren’t glossed over and set-up scenes haven’t been omitted, and most important, scenes don’t end abruptly without a pay-off.
One example that comes to mind is “Mad Max: Fury Road.” That was a high-octane, high voltage movie, with a wild, extended chase scene as its centerpiece. Yet, it never felt rushed because I never sensed anything was being skipped over or left unexplained.
As it relates to Game of Thrones, let me throw out two examples for comparison…
—- 5:37 pm. Gotta run out. To be continued —
Ten Bears,
Not only that, but Hot Pie knew Arya, liked Arya, and knew Arya hated Cersei. So Hot Pie repeated to Arya an unflattering rumor about Cersei, a rumor he knew would agree with Arya’s opinion of Cersei. Humans curry favor like this all of the time in the real world. Hot Pie’s decision to repeat that particular rumor to this particular person does not in any way imply he even cared about the Sept, let alone knew who might have been responsible. He works in a tavern, and there are as many rumors mongered in such a place as there are drink-loosened tongues to monger them.
kevin1989,
Ten Bears,
I concur on the fast paced vs rushed. It’s incredibly frustrating to see that after all the TV shows we’re watching in this day and age and dissecting every little thing on the internet, the difference between these two still escapes us.
To be honest it’s a thing in real life too. It’s one thing to work in a fast paced environment because that’s the nature of the job, and a different story to just do a rushed job because you just wanna get off work earlier and on a relatively relaxed office environment too…
Ten Bears,
Lol Seven blessings to you too, Ten Bears!
kevin1989,
I also take the comments here much more seriously, but we’re talking about the fan backlash to season 8, of which those sites played a very big part. It’s not that I care what they say, it’s that what they say is relevant to the discussion we’re having. Those sites prove that the majority of the backlash was due to what happened in season 8, rather than how.
2. The debate should have been put to rest, but you apparently can’t admit when you’re wrong. I dismissed some of the things you said because I wanted to give you the chance to save face, but instead you dug in your heels. Scenes have nothing to do with the literary definition of pacing, as you very well know. The article you linked literally says “here are some tools to hasten your story.” Using scenes is simply one tool you can use to help pace your story, one of several. The other tools directly pertain to season 8, such as action, cliffhangers, and scene jumps. 803 was an example of fast paced because it moved the story very quickly in a single episode. You are deliberately manipulating the facts in order to help your argument, which is highly disingenuous. I thought you were better than that.
“Pacing controls the speed and rhythm the story is told” is them saying it determines how quickly the story progresses, something I’ve been saying all along. You are actually debating the definition of a word, and that’s why you lost.
There was nothing missing in season 8, or brushed over, so it was not rushed. You simply wished season 8 had more scenes, even though they weren’t needed, but that’s not the same thing. You have it backwards. The facts simply are not on your side, no matter how much you wish the opposite.
3. I only know of two plot holes, both from season 7. But it doesn’t really tell me anything. The other seasons have other flaws, as do every other television show.
When Cersei was hosting the Iron Bank representative, he brought up the explosion, and she said it was a tragic accident.
Ten Bears,
Everything that occurred in season 8 was set up by events that took place in season 8 or the previous seasons. There were no missing scenes, therefore, it was not rushed.
So the perpetrator telling someone a lie is somehow the “official story”? Handy!
Sure it was.
Best comment of the thread!!!! 😆
Pigeon,
Yes, the official story is what the government supplies to the citizens. It’s not necessarily the truth.
Pigeon,
Yes, that’s correct.
It was a story supplied by an official, but that doesn’t automatically mean it’s the official story. It makes it the “official” story. I believe even in Westeros they used air quotes.
Mr Derp,
Hot Pie knew it was Cersei. Therefore, everyone knew it was Cersei. Come on, dude.
Hot Pie heard that rumor in the tavern where he works. Therefore, everyone heard that rumor in the tavern where he works. Which proves absolutely nothing about what actually happened.
Come on, dude.
Where are you getting this from? I don’t recall any of this mentioned on the show.
Ditto your belief about the common people of King’s Landing loving the High Sparrow. (Although you have stated this belief multiple times, you have yet to support it with even a single quote or image from the show.) As noted elsewhere, his roving goon squads had violently deprived them of drinks and pleasure-women. Why should they love him?
The HS gained complete control of KL in all but name during season 6.
She wasted no time in immediately taking over KL after her son’s death.
So, the High Sparrow and Cersei were both wildly popular with the masses?
Or each had a loyal base of armed supporters (Sparrows, Gold Cloaks) who enforced their authority over those masses?
The Sept of Baelor was also considered a sacred place. It was strange that there was little to no reaction to his death from the common people.
Um, that’s further evidence that no one cared about the deaths of “…The High Sparrow, and all of his little Sparrows,” as Cersei taunted Septa Unella — whilst wine-boarding her! (And The High Sparrow himself had described the Sept of Baelor as a “gilded monstrosity,” or some such, so it appears even he didn’t have much of a liking for it. He preferred to pray in an older, smaller, simpler chapel beneath it.)
Huh? Did I say it was?
I wrote: “I am NOT jumping into the “fast-paced” vs. “too-rushed“ debate.”
Same as “poisoned by our enemies.”
Young Dragon,
Here.
Enjoy.
Dani ❤️ Wolf Girl
https://i.imgur.com/QEQmDyo.gif
The most powerful man in the world at the time, President John F. Kennedy, was fatally shot in broad daylight, while surrounded by police and security men, in the middle of a major American city, with hundreds or even thousands of potential witnesses present, and a movie camera recording the event. This was all followed by an official government inquiry, led by a respected jurist, with subpoena power. And to this day, decades later, there is still no popular consensus on who killed JFK or why.
Assuming that everyone in King’s Landing came to agreement on how the Sept went boom assumes a lot of things about illiterate masses in a Dark Age setting — things which are not true even of educated persons in our modern world.
Pigeon,
It was.
Except the evidence shows that Lee Harvey Oswald did it, by himself. If you actually look at the evidence, ballistics, etc…it’s clear as day that Lee Harvey Oswald did it.
It’s just not a sexy enough conclusion for most people to accept. It’s always gotta be a grand conspiracy theory instead of just letting the evidence speak for itself.
No, considering we never got to see any reaction or fallout from the Sept explosion, that’s further evidence of a dropped plot point, not that nobody cared. All that does is articulate that Cersei didn’t like them.
And sure, the HS didn’t like the Sept, but I didn’t say the HS liked it. I said it was considered a sacred place in Westeros, not to the HS. For example, that Lannister soldier in season 7 was looking forward to seeing it, but he wasn’t allowed to.
You asked me who determined Cersei was responsible and I replied by stating it’s common knowledge in Westeros that Cersei did it. The fact that Hot Pie heard it was Cersei articulates this. Olenna knew it as well.
Yet now you’re saying there’s no proof, so you can’t accept it. Well, again, there’s no proof that Jaime is the father of Joffrey, Tommen, or Myrcella, but all of Westeros believed that to be a fact, yes?. Being convicted in the court of public opinion can stick with you just as much as any “official” verdict.
Mr. Derp:
Please provide quotes and/or images from the show to support your claims about the common people of King’s Landing having loved The High Sparrow. That is your claim, one which you have repeatedly failed to support with anything other than your own tedious assertions that it is true. Your carefully missing the points others here make does not do anything to support your claims, and the show’s failure to provide evidence for your claims is not the fault of, or a problem with, the show.
I have no problem at all with the ending. Just the silly path that was taken to arrive there. Everyone was firing on all cylinders for every aspect of the production except that scripts were, with the exception of Bryan Cogman’s, some of the weakest of the entire series.
Smart people taking turns being stupid to advance the plot along a pre-determined outline to unearned dramatic endings. This impacted primarily the dialogue and the logical structure of the action (which was very well filmed if a bit dark in one episode).
There were some excellent scenes though that were some of the very best in the series. Most of them had Drogon in them for some reason.
Mr Derp,
“Dropped plot point”? Were there any important characters left alive who loved the High Sparrow so much that they would undoubtedly swear to avenge his death, and the plot kinda forgot about them because obviously it was written by a couple of dumb-dumbs? The answer is “no.” There *was* a fairly important character named Olenna who lost her entire family in the explosion, and she swore to take revenge on Cersei by siding with Dany, just as would be logical.
Besides her, who? A bunch of nameless, unarmed peasants who’ll get themselves and their families butchered if they dare publicly utter a word against Cersei? Quite a few of those peasants, though far from all, will undoubtedly be upset at the High Sparrow’s demise, and many of them may not believe the official story that the explosion was an accident (not that anyone has a shred of evidence to the contrary). But even if they were, it’s not like they were starving and had to revolt and fight for their lives or die, like what almost happened during Joffrey’s reign.
Young Dragon,
Yeah? No. There are some flaws in your logic here. Even if your first two assertions were true (and they seem entirely reasonable) it doesn’t necessarily follow that no scenes were missing. And, come to that, even if the “missing” scenes were added, the production might still feel rushed even allowing for the inevitable acceleration to any conclusion.
I don’t feel the season
HablaCarnage,
was rushed. It just made very little sense though it was shot beautifully.
There it is, in a nutshell🤓!
Especially compared to their wit and eloquence in earlier seasons, it’s hard to dispute that Tyrion and Varys “took turns being stupid” in S8.
Jon “Muh Kween” Snow, Sansa “I hate your gf” Stark, Birdbrain Bran, and even my beloved Arya, were not immune from S.I.D.D. (Sudden Intelligence Deficit Disorder).
I’m not sure though how much of the dumbing down of the dialogue was attributable to “advancing the plot along a pre-determined outline,” as opposed to other factors such as absence of source material, creative exhaustion, etc. Whatever the reason(s), the differences were striking.
For example (and I recognize others may disagree), the wight hunt plan-devising, Cersei-appeasing, easily-deluded, unfunny c*ck-joke -spewing Tyrion who delivered the absurd “Bran the Broken/Best Story” speech hardly resembled the witty, whip-smart, Joffrey-bitch-slapping Tyrion who outed Pycelle as Cersei’s spy; transformed pompous Lancel into his own double agent; and turned his “confession” at the Vale into an audience-pleasing stand-up routine.
That’s just my opinion, based on my own perceptions. I’m not criticizing anyone who thought that Tyrion’s S8 “Your baby, your baby” entreaties to Cersei or his “Bran the Broken” speech were br****ant.
I just wanna thank the people who talked about Succession here in this site and piqued my curiosity. Just finished Season 1 and I enjoyed it soooo much… Brilliant series! 😁 HBO never lets you down. 👍
Actually, seeing as though the common people never really had a voice in the show or an important character represent them, we don’t really know what they thought. All we have to go on is what we saw play out during the High Sparrows’s reign of terror on the nobles. I admit that the HS’s rise to power had more to do with his influence over Tommen and Cersei than the common people, but it was apparent during seasons 5 and 6 that the common people backed him. The HS never would’ve become the High Sparrow to begin with unless he had a following.
Yes, the HS was a misogynist, homophobe, and hypocrite, so he sucked too. I wouldn’t want him in charge anymore than Cersei. However, he’s the only person on the show with power who used it to fight for the downtrodden and disenfranchised. We’ve seen multiple scenes throughout the show that articulate how unhappy the common people were with the status quo. You really think they wouldn’t back the one man that came to Westeros to try to even the odds in their favor? If you want to go with that then that’s fine, but it goes against what we saw play out on screen. The common people seemed pretty enthusiastic about Cersei’s walk of shame, no? They cheered enthusiastically when Tommen declared that the crown and the faith would join together as one, no?. Wouldn’t these be considered signs of endorsement that they approve of the HS?
This actually taps into a minor issue I had with the show throughout. The common man never really had a voice in the show. They were really used as props more than anything. If they had more of a voice then it would be easier to know exactly how they felt.
You’re making this personal. Drop the attitude and I’d be happy to continue the conversation.
Mr Derp,
“…it’s common knowledge in Westeros that Cersei did it. The fact that Hot Pie heard it was Cersei articulates this. Olenna knew it as well.”
In addition to the established trustworthiness of reporting by the HPNN, and the in-universe examples you cited that it was common knowledge that Cersei blew up the Sept (and not some unfortunate “accident”), there’s what I’d call “the Margaery* Deduction”:
• As King Tommen the Spineless had publicly announced the date of Cersei’s (rigged) trial-by-Septon, and the galleries were packed with spectators, everybody knew Cersei was supposed to be in the Sept that day.
• That Cersei didn’t bother attending meant she didn’t give a sh*t about the consequences (e.g., being forcibly brought to the Sept or being tried in absentia), because she was going to preempt those consequences.
• In any event, that Cersei survived the explosion by staying far away from the scene, hunkered down in the Red Keep quaffing wine, was a pretty good indication to anyone with half a brain that Cersei knew in advance that a wildfire explosion would incinerate her prosecutor, his forehead-carving deputies, the witnesses against her, her assembled enemies, any bystanders in the immediate vicinity, and the “courthouse” itself.
🧪🦠💥🔥🕍
• That Cersei, alive and well (and unbowed, unbroken, and unburnt), promptly appeared in public and seized the throne for herself while the ruins were still smoking, indicated she had foreknowledge of the explosion, and had planned for it in advance.
• All of these circumstances couldn’t be dismissed as mere coincidence. They were indicia of premeditation and guilty knowledge.
• Floating an “official story“ that the explosion was a terrible accident would be expected. It’s not as if Cersei and Qyburn would hold a press conference and announce: “Yeah, we did it. Deal with it..”
• The “commonfolk” would surely realize that anyone foolish enough to stick his neck out to demand an investigation, publicly accuse the queen of murder, or in any way challenge the “official story,” would soon have his head on a pike. (Oh wait… Maybe I’m confusing that with the real world
)
• I’m not sure if the public at large knew that Tommen had been kept away from the scene of the (impending) crime, and only after seeing that his mom had vaporized his honeypie, did he decide to commit suicide-by-defenestration, splattering his body on the streets below the Red Keep. (As far as I understand, in the fictional world of ASOIAF/Game of Thrones, government officials didn’t feel honor-bound to take responsibility for accidents occurring on their watch by committing seppuku.)
• As opposed to, say, a fire caused by a gas leak or even an in-universe spontaneous eruption courtesy of divine intervention by that practical joker the Lord of Light, the telltale green flames of ignited wildfire strongly suggested that the explosion was caused by a man-made substance.
• It’d be a stretch for anyone to believe that one of the Mad King’s decades-old secret stashes of wildfire just happened to ignite under the Sept at the precise date and time of the regicide trial. In fact, I thought that the existence of those caches was a little-known secret among Jaime and maybe a handful of other people. Qyburn had initially referred to the existence of the caches as a rumor that he later investigated and confirmed. (Even if members of the public were aware of the other possible source of wildfire, the stores manufactured by the pyromancers of the Alchemists’ Guild at Cersei’s direction [see S2], those could be traceable to Cersei.)
• So, even in the absence of direct, first-hand evidence to support HPNN’s reporting that “Cersei blew up the Great Sept (Boom!🔥)
, and even discounting Olenna’s certainty that Cersei did it [S6e10] – which Jaime didn’t dispute when Olenna confronted him in her farewell scene [S7e5?], I would think there was enough publicly-known evidence for anyone to conclude that Cersei was culpable.
* (Shameless Segue):
Happy 38th Birthday to Natalie Dormer!
🎉🌺🦜🌈🎂
Did Hot Pie know that Arya hated Cersei? I’m not disputing what you wrote. I just don’t recall that Hot Pie was aware of Arya’s particular dislike of Cersei before he mentioned to Arya [in S7e2] that Cersei had blown up the Great Sept.
Here’s an excerpt of the dialogue from that Hot Pie-Arya scene in S7e2. Apologies for any inaccuracies in my transcription:
***
HP: “Where are you heading?”
Arya: “King’s Landing.”
HP: “Why?”
Arya: “I heard Cersei’s queen now.”
HP: “I heard she blew up the Great Sept. That must have been something to see. Boom!
… I can’t believe someone would do that.”
Arya: “Cersei would do that.”
HP: “I thought you’d be heading for Winterfell.”
Arya: “Why would I go there? The Boltons have it.”
HP: “No. The Boltons are dead.”
Arya: “What?”
HP: “Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with a Wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards. He’s King in the North now.”
———
Were there any earlier scenes between Arya and Hot Pie during their time together from S1e10 through their parting in mid-S3, in which she conveyed her enmity for Cersei? I don’t remember any off the top of my head. I may have forgotten.
Ten Bears,
Thanks TB for injecting some common sense into this debate.
I actually missed that comment from Tenor to you initially.
It’s interesting. When I don’t prove my assertions that means to certain people that I’m tedious and my arguments are wrong, yet when others make assertions without proof it’s somehow supposed to be taken as fact.
I was initially told that no one knew who blew up the Sept. I countered that with in-show proof that everyone unofficially knew Cersei did it. However, that was countered with me being told that Hot Pie said what he said about Cersei just because he was trying to curry favor with Arya. Where is the proof for that?
Mr Derp,
You’re making this personal. Drop the attitude and I’d be happy to continue the conversation.
Nice dodge. Unless you provide some evidence to show the common people loved The High Sparrow, then there is no “conversation” to “continue;” there’s just you, emptily stating your same groundless belief, over and over.
Go to the montage of the Sparrows raging through King’s Landing, smashing barrels of wine, attacking members of other religions, and gleefully assaulting nakedly helpless persons in a brothel. Now, please show us some evidence the people of King’s Landing loved the leader who ordered such crimes against them.
Furthermore, even if everyone did believe Cersei ordered the destruction of the Sept, it is perfectly possible both to *not* love The High Sparrow, and to believe in Cersei’s guilt. Oleanna Tyrell did both quite easily.
As the Sparrows made life miserable — and quite possibly much shorter! — for many inhabitants of King’s Landing, a widespread belief that Cersei had rid the city of such violent, abusive fanatics could actually have been a point in her favor with the masses.
Again, please show your work, or no credit.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
”As the Sparrows made life miserable — and quite possibly much shorter! — for many inhabitants of King’s Landing, a widespread belief that Cersei had rid the city of such violent, abusive fanatics could actually have been a point in her favor with the masses.”
While I cannot speak for the masses, Cersei/Lena Headey scored major points in my book for her wineboarding of Septa Unella. I loved her in that scene. (🔔🔔🔔 indeed.)
Plus, I disliked everything about the High Sparrow & Faith Militant storyline so much that I thoroughly enjoyed watching him disintegrate, after that smug look disappeared from his face. I did not like the (show-only?) gaybashing, torture and mutilation of Ser Loras, or the unspeakable offense of dressing Queen Margaery in a drab potato sack. For that matter, the High Sparrow’s gender-based persecution and humiliation of Cersei (while letting Jaime and Lancel off the hook) was repugnant, as was his transparent intent to get her out of the way by rigging her “trial” in order to complete his consolidation of power. Using feigned religious belief and the supposed will of the gods as a pretext made him worse than Joffrey – who at least was out in the open with his cruelty.
But enough about me. 😬
You’re probably right that the inhabitants of KL would have been grateful that Cersei had “rid the city of violent, abusive fanatics.” (Pelting her with sh*t as she walked naked down Main Street wasn’t personal.. That’s how the rabble got their entertainment, as demonstrated by their later jeering of Cersei’s enemies, Ellaria and Tyene, as they were paraded through the streets of KL.)
The “masses” may have supported the HS at first, when he had them believing he’d improve their lives. He put on a nice show, with his holy bullsh*t, supposed austerity, and soup kitchens to feed the poor. By the time the HS and his armed goons progressed to terrorizing the people (and outlawing the few diversions ordinary folks had to make their crappy lives halfway tolerable), anyone who got rid of that pontificating hypocrite and his jackass militants would be hailed as a liberator. (Plus, Cersei had to be admired for her chutpah. “That must have been something to see. Boom! I can’t believe someone would do that.” – HP.)
Maybe that’s why nobody made a stink about blowing up the Sept.
Mr Derp,
”…I was initially told that no one knew who blew up the Sept. I countered that with in-show proof that everyone unofficially knew Cersei did it. However, that was countered with me being told that Hot Pie said what he said about Cersei just because he was trying to curry favor with Arya. Where is the proof for that?”
At the risk of being redundant, I did not interpret anything Hot Pie said in volunteering that Cersei blew up the Sept (excerpted in my 3:52 pm comment) as suggesting he was trying to ingratiate himself with Arya. I am still not sure he even knew Arya had a particular dislike for Cersei.
If Hot Pie was “trying to curry favor with Arya,” that came later in the scene when Arya was getting up to leave, and had nothing to do with Cersei or the Sept: After comping the meal (“Friends don’t pay”), Hot Pie said….
“I can’t believe I thought you were a boy. You’re pretty!”
🍰❤️👸🏻
Mr Derp,
”…This actually taps into a minor issue I had with the show throughout. The common man never really had a voice in the show. They were really used as props more than anything. If they had more of a voice then it would be easier to know exactly how they felt.”
That’s certainly true about the later seasons in general and any reaction to the HS’s demise in particular. (S6e10: Cool music, cool explosion…then Qyburn crowns Cersei at the end.)
However, I thought the show did a pretty good job of giving voice to “the common man” in Arya’s story lines, especially in S3 and S4, e.g.:
– Sally’s father explaining to Sandor & Arya how “the whole country had gone sour” in the dinner table scene in S4e3;
– The speech by the mortally wounded dying farmer (“bad way to go”) to Arya & Sandor in S4e7;
– The villagers/fellow inmates tortured at the Harrenhal prison camp in S3;
– Arya’s fellow “gutter rats”/NW recruits (e.g., Lommy, Hot Pie and Gendry) in S1e10 – mid S2;
– The innkeeper and his daughter terrorized by Polliver and his gang of predators in S4e1;
– The friendly Lannister soldiers in S7e1, who were really just homesick boys conscripted “to fight in other people’s wars.”
Those scenes not only gave voice to the “commonfolk,” but demonstrated Arya’s empathy for their plight.
Nevertheless, as you observed, the commonfolk were otherwise reduced to “props” for the most part. When shown on screen, they were usually in large crowds, without any individual speaking parts. While the scenes I cited were not very long, they did convey how the regular folks felt about, and were impacted by, the wars of the squabbling lords and rival monarchs.
It’s kind of strange that for all the talk professing concern for the small folk crushed by “the wheel” and the innocents who suffer when “the high lords play their game of thrones,” and fighting over the throne to (supposedly) liberate the people from “tyranny,” the show “kind of forgot” to give them a voice.
As illustrated by a handful of scenes (e.g., those cited above), all it took was a couple of minutes and a competent guest actor to provide the perspective of the “everyman.” The showrunners were obviously capable of scripting such scenes. They added richness and context to the events depicted on screen. Interactions with “ordinary folks” evidenced the the main characters’ qualities more than their sidekicks’ appraisals or their own self-glorifying pronouncements.
As a show-only fan, it’s my understanding that the books devoted significantly time to the travails of the “smallfolk.” I can appreciate that a lot of side stories and side characters have to be trimmed away in adapting the books to the screen.
Still, in light of the themes of the show, with many of the main players purportedly motivated by concern (or disregard) for the welfare of “the people,” your comment has made me wonder why the brief but effective scenes early on that gave the common man “more of a voice,” kind of disappeared in the later seasons. (The conspicuous shortage of guest actresses and actors nominees in this year’s WotW Awards was telling.)
Just to be clear, I am NOT whinging and I am NOT second-guessing the showrunners. I have no doubt that in streamlining the storylines for the show to progress to its conclusion, it would likely seem counterintuitive to consider inserting one-off cameo appearances by tertiary characters voicing the feelings and reactions of the commonfolk. I have assumed this wouldn’t take much screentime time or dialogue, but what do I know? I am not qualified to weigh in on screenwriting or production. (From my unprofessional perspective, every minute of screentime wasted on Euron could have been better spent in a million different ways.)
P.S. Sorry so long. I couldn’t edit before posting.
HablaCarnage,
Two examples of what I’d call “missing scenes”:
• Jon’s revelation of his parentage to his sisters and their reactions to it was a scene “missing“ from S8e4.
• Bran relating to Tyrion the story about journeying to the far north to become 3ER 2.0 was a “missing scene” in S8e2.
Many commenters have already explained why, in great detail. (We can all rehash the reasons in depth or argue about them some other time. It’s past my bedtime. 💤)
Caveat(s):
– I don’t buy into the notion that characters imparting information the audience already knows renders their conversations extraneous and expendable.
– Likewise, I disagree that an audience should indulge the presumption that important exchanges and interactions occurred offscreen.
– I do not believe it’s fair to resort to ex post facto excuses to justify a dramatic conflict or mystery framed early on and frequently revisited, but left unresolved by the end.
– As a corollary, I’d suggest that the extensiveness of a setup should be proportional to the significance of its payoff. Put another way, if a big “gun” has been hung, it shouldn’t fire a f*cking dud. (Nor should the loaded gun simply vanish.)
– To me, “fast-pacing” is not achieved by omitting scenes to reduce run time, and expecting that the audience can extrapolate what happened instead – or won’t care.
Tensor the Mage, Who Loves Reading Biblical Prophecies for Amusement,
Dear Tensor:
I enjoy reading your comments, though often J don’t see them unless I scroll back a day or two. As you probably know, the slightest alteration in a screen name can trap a comment in Moderation Purgatory indefinitely.
I’m not whining. I like your evolving screen names. I just wanted you to know that sometimes I’m not aware that you’ve replied to something I wrote.
Hodor Hodorson,
I agree. And I think the petition was brilliant.
Ser Creighton Longbough,
I was one of those people, I’ve been banging on about Succession for months. Seeing it win all of those awards was very nice, though Jeremy Strong should have gotten more nominations for S2, as you will soon see. S2 is even better than S1.
This fandom is lost 🤦♂️
So, I’m hopeful that WotW may come up with some different topics soon.
Here are some awesome photos taken of GOT cast at the Oscars. These are all from GettyImages
Great photo of Alfie
I really like this closeup
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/english-actor-alfie-allen-arrives-for-the-92nd-oscars-at-the-dolby-picture-id1199748281?s=2048×2048
(there’s a bunch more of Alfie in his tux on their site)
Dean Charles Chapman:
https://www.gettyimages.in/detail/news-photo/dean-charles-chapman-attends-the-92nd-annual-academy-awards-news-photo/1205120060?adppopup=true
Jonathan Pryce:
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/jonathan-pryce-attends-the-92nd-annual-academy-awards-at-hollywood-picture-id1205156530?s=2048×2048
Random Awesome Maisie Williams photo… (Not at Oscars)
Maisie at Paris Fashion week in September 2019 with her boyfriend Reuben Selby.
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/couple-reuben-selby-and-maisie-williams-seen-outside-thom-browne-picture-id1178015456?s=2048×2048
Ten Bears,
TormundsWoman,
Thank you. And you’re right it seems that not everyone understands the difference between rushed, pacing, narrative etc (Not even myself, I had it explained to me by a guy who studied literature. Not talking to him anymore since he stated that GoT wasn’t great literature. Just kidding.)
For me it’s always easy to see the difference if you look at who watch the show. I think there is not a single person who dislike fast-paced storytelling so now and then, sometimes it’s easier to follow it. (like a comedy show that 9 out of 10 is fast paced). But some people can’t watch slow-paced storytelling because they will loose interest when it doesn’t jump from one thing to the next, they need to get something fresh every 5 minutes. My mother for instance is like that, everything that is slow paced she just can’t watch (Except maybe if it’s a romantic show but I even think shows like outlander she won’t get into).
The LightKing,
Here then. Add some ASNAWP to your day.
https://i.imgur.com/10sgcAj.gif
Young Dragon,
The plothole that still bothers me was Sansa in season 7 I think, where she tells she knows Cersei because Cersei killed her father, brother etc. That was just not true, she had nothing to do with either death, it was Joffrey and Tywin. They forgot the events of the show (Especially when Sansa knew the truth about those events).
Another is I forgot if it was season 7 or 8, but there was some mistake with alliances, but I have to watch the show again to pin-point the scene.
But I don’t think they are really plotholes, those are I think more continue errors, and that is something else than a plothole.
edit: and I dislike myself that the Iron Bank on the show is into slavery, when the Iron Bank was formed by former slaves. It just feels so wrong.
But on the other thing, just let us agree to disagree then.
Pigeon,
such a shame about that gas leak that happened below the Sept of Baelor.
But serious, I wonder if people really think that Tysho believed Cersei? I think it’s pretty obvious that he knew she was lying but he just went with it, because money is more important.
XDXDXD
Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard,
Wasn’t there a half-truth told a short time ago? Maybe 2 or 3 years?
But still we aren’t getting the whole truth.
Mr Derp,
Didn’t the CIA (or secret service?) brought some documents to the public that it was done by one of the secret service in accident because of reacting to the shooter? At least that was on the dutch television a couple of years ago about that the US goverment released documents about his death.
Doesn’t mean Oswald was not in it, he probably was there.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41771923
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4769921/jfk-assassination-who-killed-files-donald-trump/
But I wonder why a couple of 100 documents are forbidden to be released to the public if they wanted to be transparent 2 years ago.
Trump promised that those will be released in 2021 if he is elected. Seems he really wants a second term. He state he can’t release them now because it would cause harm to the national security. (More so than his tweets?)
Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard,
The prove is season 5 and 6, the only question is why? It’s probably not for the faith itself, but the HS told the people what they want to hear: The fault of your miserable lives is because of the rich houses (and business man). By following the HS they could make sure they get a better life by destroying the houses (not that it’s true but it’s logical that they feel that way). Even our own history shows that the common folk would follow the HS.
Even Jaime stated that the High Sparrow is too powerful because he got the common folk to support him, and that they can’t win against him. I think only the people who suffer more under the rules of the seven than under the rule of Cersei would be glad that the High Sparrow would be gone.
Ser Creighton Longbough,
Is that show already done (or almost done). I would like to bingewatch the whole series in one go 😀
Mr Derp,
I really disliked that they went that way with the HS, they made him really evil. In the books he is not that evil, in the show I wanted him gone since episode 5×04. In the books I want him to win. He is not so evil in the books and more concern about how the houses uses the common people. (and it seems he had some other goals we just don’t understand yet). But making him that evil with homophobic, misogynistic etc is a easy way that we will support Cersei, and when Cersei wins over the HS it would feel like a victory instead of a defeat.
This fandom is Game of Thrones, not Lost. That show ended 10 years ago.
kevin1989,
”The plothole that still bothers me was Sansa in season 7 I think, where she tells she knows Cersei because Cersei killed her father, brother etc. That was just not true, she had nothing to do with either death, it was Joffrey and Tywin. They forgot the events of the show (Especially when Sansa knew the truth about those events).”
Also, in early S7 on Dragonstone, didn’t Tyrion tell Dany that Jon had good reason to hate Cersei for the same (false) reasons?
I am not sure this qualifies as a “plot hole.” I’m not sure what to call it.
kevin1989,
Correction. Here’s what Tyrion said to Dany in S7e2 [excerpt below] about Jon Snow having reason to hate Cersei, i.e., because “the Lannisters” executed Ned and conspired to murder Robb.
But Cersei had nothing to do with the Red Wedding conspiracy, and Tyrion surely knew that. And beheading Ned was dickhead Joffrey’s bright idea; Cersei had expected Joffrey to abide by the exile to the Wall + false treason confession deal that had been arranged with Ned.
While Cersei had done a lot of crazy sh*t, it was unfair (and inaccurate) to attribute to her the deaths of Ned and Robb, or to assume that Jon would hate Cersei.
S7e2
Tyrion (to Dany): “I can’t speak to prophecies or visions in the flames, but I like Jon Snow and I trusted him, and I am an excellent judge of character.
If he does rule the north, he would make a valuable ally. The Lannisters executed his father and conspired to murder his brother. Jon Snow has even more reason to hate Cersei than you do.”
Ill tell you what. Ill provide proof for my assertion that the common people of KL approved of the HS as soon as you provide proof for your assertion that Hot Pie only told Arya that Cersei blew up the Sept because he was trying to curry favor with Arya.
kevin1989,
Good one 😄
First, let’s note with amusement that no one else is ever under any obligation to help you (or me, or anyone) to make an argument. If you want your claims to fail for lack of evidentiary support, that is your business, not mine or anyone else’s. Assertions made without evidence may be dismissed without evidence, so there go your assertions of popular love for a heartless fanatic, and the supposed plot hole this creates. Better luck next time!
As for proof of a young man wanting to curry favor with a young lady of his acquaintance — a young lady who just so happens to look exactly like Maisie Williams (!) — Ten Bears has already quoted that very same scene, wherein Hot Pie tells Arya she is “pretty.” That works for me; YMMV.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
You are finding new and uninteresting ways to be antagonistic and unamusing. Kudos to you.
You’re calling this proof?
This is just bizarre. You’re the one that’s trying to get me to prove my opinions to you when I feel no obligation to do so. I owe you nothing. I also didn’t say it was a plot hole at all. I simply said I was a little surprised that nothing came of the HS’s death, considering he was the only person to help the common people, who were already in a desperate situation as it was.
You require proof from me to back up my opinions, yet you do not hold yourself to the same standard. You made a baseless claim about Hot Pie and you backed it up with absolutely nothing. I wasn’t even talking to you about this to begin with. I was talking to someone else and you decided the conversation needed an extra dose of internet snark, so you got involved. Hot Pie telling Arya that she’s pretty doesn’t prove that he said made something up about Cersei in order to curry favor with her. If you want to be taken seriously instead of being seen as someone trying to troll me because you don’t like my opinion, then don’t be such a hypocrite. Better luck next time.
Anyway, in more positive news, the North now has their next heir in line. Sophie Turner is reportedly pregnant. Congrats.
Mr Derp,
Wouldn’t that be a couple. Hot Pie and Arya. Together on a journey, always fresh bread available. Why didn’t Arya think of it?
Bran: Is there anything I could do, Arya for the journey west?
Arya: Well, if you could fetch the famous pie baker of all of the seven kingdoms that would help a lot.
Bran: Say no more sis.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
I call people pretty which I have no intention’s be be romantic or biblical with. People could just give an old friend a compliment that he clearly sees she want to hear?
Or are some man/woman only nice to somebody else when they want something in return, like romance or a hot night? I don’t think Hot Pie falls in that category. (Which I always call “Nice guys”, between “” for a reason. They are only nice when they could get something in return)
Mr Derp,
Congrats Sophie turner.
kevin1989,
• Aww, Hot Pie’s compliment was spontaneous and sincere. I don’t think he told her “I can’t believe I thought you were a boy. You’re pretty!” to hit on her.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/d9b1957e3fccb0bfce723b41f7970885/tumblr_otktnsrDNk1qmoy4io3_500.gifv
• I also thought the way Arya tentatively replied, “Thanks” was sweet. It showed that she was not used to hearing people telling her she’s beautiful. (And that she had outgrown the androgynous look that had enabled her to pass as a boy.)
• Hot Pie would not need to resort to flattery or Cersei-bashing to win her affections or stir her passions: Arya was already moaning with pleasure as she wolfed down the pie from his tray.
• And, he shared with her the priceless gift of his culinary magic: ”The secret is browning the butter before making the dough.”
• He behaved like a gentleman: He picked up the tab. (”Friends don’t pay.”)
“Tyrion Jonas” has a nice ring to it, wouldn’t you say?
Lol, how about Joffrey Jonas? It’s got the alliteration working for it and all. What could possibly go wrong? 😉
What if it’s a girl though?
kevin1989,
(This from July, 2018, in my reply to another commenter’s whimsical prediction that Arya would discover chocolate during her westward voyages.)
Arya: “Mmm! This is really good! What is it?”
Hot Pie: “Chocolate layer cake with fudge icing.”
Arya: “How did you make it? Show me how. I want to be able to do it too.”
Hot Pie: “If you would learn, you must get cacao for me.”
Arya. “Where?”
Hot Pie: “Far and away across the Narrow Sea in the New World, a place called Ecuador.”
Arya: “Sounds great! When do we leave?”
Hot Pie: “We“? Is it “we” already?”
If Sophie channels her fictional alter-egos as Lady of WF + QitN, she could flip around her dialogue in Sansa’s S6e7 visit to Bear Island, and pay tribute to a heroine who gave her life defending Winterfell in S8e3, by naming her daughter… Lyanna.
HablaCarnage,
If there are flaws in my logic, I would like to hear specific examples. As for the season, it made perfect sense.
Ten Bears,
How were Tyrion and Varys stupid?
Yes, Jon addressed Danerys as “my queen” but I still have no idea why people are making such a big deal about it. Sansa called Joffrey “Your Grace” more times than Jon called Danerys “my queen.”
There was certainly a change in the dialogue once D&D ran out of Martin’s source material, but that was to be expected. It’s almost impossible to copy another writer’s style unless you have it right out in front of you. D&D have their own writing style, but I don’t consider it to be worse. The writing didn’t decline for me like it did for other people.
Ten Bears,
Those scenes weren’t missing because they never existed in the first place. Bran telling Tyrion his story, a very long story that the audience already knew, was completely unnecessary. Such scenes of omission have already taken place in the show. We never saw Sansa receiving the news about the Red Wedding. And it cut off right when Tyrion was about to tell Sansa they were to be married, two scenes that would have required less time and explanation than for Bran to give a summary of his storyline in seasons 3-6.
As for Arya and Sansa being told about Jon’s parentage offscreen, we’ve already seen the reveal three times. It was already beginning to be repetitive. There were two characters that the reveal needed to be given to were Jon and Danerys, for they are the two who would be affected the most.
kevin1989,
When did Sansa say that? I rewatched all her scenes with Jon, and though Robb, Ned, and Cersei were brought up, she never said anything about Cersei being responsible for their deaths. Did she mention it to Arya or Littlefinger? I don’t remember this.
Likewise, I don’t recall there being any contradiction with the alliances.
Was it mentioned the Iron Bank was founded by slaves?
Ten Bears,
So no, that’s not a plot hole. The Lannisters did murder Robb and Ned, and Cersei was now the head of House Lannister. And I would say she had a hand in Ned’s death. She was the one who imprisoned him under false pretenses.
You actually wrote, “we never got to see any reaction or fallout from the Sept explosion, that’s further evidence of a dropped plot point,” as Farimer already quoted.
You’re criticizing the show for having a flaw, based on nothing other than your opinion — an opinion you keep ever-more-conspicuously *not* supporting with any actual material from the show.
You’re calling this proof?
It’s more than you’ve provided to support your opinion, now isn’t it?
I disagree I thought the padi
Aaronia,
The petition was toxic fandom entitlement to the max. It’s not your art you don’t get a say in how it’s made. You can choose to watch or to not watch.
Fireandblood87,
Everyone who signed this petition isn’t a true fan. People simply disliked it because it didn’t go their way.
kevin1989,
Thank you for demonstrating how popular consensus on events can remain elusive, even after an investigation to our modern standards. Now, let us consider an illiterate and ill-informed population in a Dark Age city, in a world where magic actually exists. The chance they’re all going to agree on one single explanation for the Sept explosion is really, really small. (And even if they did all agree it was Cersei’s fault, what were they going to do about it?)
Furthermore, we can speculate about an alternate explanation: that the Sparrows’ unprovoked violence against the common folk in the name of the Seven had actually angered the Seven, and the Seven then punished the Sparrows for it. This idea might also have popular appeal, and speaking such an idea would seem to be far less hazardous than publicly accusing the King’s own mother of having committed mass murder.
A dropped plot point and a plot hole do not have to be one in the same. It doesn’t mean there’s a hole in the story. It’s simply a plot point that I would’ve liked to have been fleshed out more. You seem to not have considered this possibility in your fervor to try and insult me.
Well no, actually it isn’t. Saying Hot Pie told Arya that Cersei was the one who blew up the Sept simply because he wanted to curry favor with her isn’t supported by anything at all whatsoever. That’s the silliest explanation I’ve ever heard. One that you haven’t supported at all in any way, shape or form. It’s the same thing you are enthusiastically attacking me for. You might as well say Varys is a merman too while you’re at and it’s proven because his bald head makes him swim faster. The hypocrisy is so off the charts that it’s not even amusing anymore.
It’s kind of telling that you think I owe you anything after the way you’ve spoken to me.
Oh no, some stranger on the internet thinks I’m wrong about something regarding a t.v. show! Save me Jon Snow!
Mr Derp,
It’s simply a plot point that I would’ve liked to have been fleshed out more.
As Farimer already explained to you, there’s no evidence this supposed “plot point” ever even existed in the first place, so your claim it was later “dropped” remains entirely groundless. Repeatedly stating your opinion as if it was a fact doesn’t make it one, no matter how tiresomely tedious your repetitions of it become. Likewise, the show not going the way you wanted is your problem, not a flaw in the story or telling.
You’re also certainly entitled to your own interpretation of Hot Pie’s interaction with Arya; the only reason we ever mentioned it was your citing his repeating a rumor as “proof” many people far away believed that rumor. But Hot Pie hadn’t been anywhere near King’s Landing in years, and there’s no reason given in-show to make us believe his account was representative of any beliefs there.
Once again, assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You’ve cited absolutely nothing from the show to support your oft-repeated claim the people of King’s Landing loved The High Sparrow, or cared in the slightest way about his death. Unless you do, all of your complaints of this “dropped plot point” are entirely meaningless.
Please leave your utterly groundless complaints about the show somewhere other than on a fan site.
Young Dragon,
It was in season 7×03 to LF: “The woman who murdered my mother, father and brother is dangerous … thank you for your wise council”
She states Cersei murdered Ned, Cat and Robb. And with neither she had anything to do with. Either this is a continue error or Sansa is by far the smartest girl there is and pretty stupid. With Cat and Robb I can think she would think Cersei had something to with it, but I think even her should know that it was Tywin. Tyrion knew and would have shared it that it was his father and not himself that ordered it. Tyrion wanted Sansa to know he had nothing to do with it.
But especially the dead of her father she know it was Joffrey not Cersei.
And about Braavos being anti-slavery was not in the show but it was on the DVD extra’s of season 5 spoken by Mark Gatiss as Tycho Nestoris.
So even if it was not in the show itself, D&D made it show-cannon by including it in their official history of Braavos on the DVDs where they explained things that can’t be explained in the show itself.
Young Dragon,
So Dany is responsible for her father’s crime? Tyrion was responsible for the crimes of Tywin? Sandor of the crimes that Sandor did? Doran was responsible for the crime of murdering Myrcella because he was the head of the house?
No they weren’t. So neither was Cersei of the crimes of her father and son. She did her own crimes that she should pay for. And if Sansa sees it as that she is responsible for the crimes of her father and son, that make Sansa a dangerous person. No the simple answer is that they wanted a sentence that stick to the story of the show and want the audience to refeel the dislike for Cersei again. But still it’s a continue error. (Not a plothole that is something else)
Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard,
If that was the case that the common folk believed Cersei’s story. The story about “Cersei blowing up the sept of Baelor” would not have traveled to for instance Hot Pie. I don’t think hot pie has magical abilities to see things others don’t. He got to know it from talking, and he wasn’t afraid to talk so freely about it, so that means it’s common knowledge it was Cersei.
kevin1989,
”It was in season 7×03 to LF: “The woman who murdered my mother, father and brother is dangerous … thank you for your wise council”
She states Cersei murdered Ned, Cat and Robb. And with neither she had anything to do with. Either this is a continue error or Sansa is by far the smartest girl there is and pretty stupid…”
——
Good spot!
And yes, barring a continuity error, Sansa would have to be the stupidest smartest person Arya ever met. 😬
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
If anything involving this conversation should not be welcomed at this site, it’s your abusive and unnecessary behavior.
We are all fans of Game of Thrones. Even the most ardent fans have criticisms from time to time. The goal of the creators of WotW was to establish an enjoyable community for all fans, even the ones who didn’t think the show was perfect in every way. I am very tolerant of most people’s opinions on this website, even the ones I disagree with. It’s easy to disagree politely and respectfully. Unfortunately, you are either choosing to ignore that or you just don’t know any better. I don’t know and I don’t really care. Personal attacks are not permitted here. This a fan site. Not a sycophant site.
Until the mods say otherwise, I’m going to continue posting my criticisms and praises of the show on this site whether you like it or not. You have no authority here nor are you some gatekeeper for who is and isn’t a fan of Game of Thrones.
kevin1989,
Oh, now I see. As I said, it’s perfectly acceptable for Sansa to see her share the responsibility of Ned’s death, since she had him arrested under false pretenses. And no, I am no way saying that people should be held accountable for the crimes of their family, I’m just saying it happens in Westeros. Look at how Danerys was treated because of the crimes of her father. Look how Ellaria treated Myrcella. You may see this as a knock against Sansa’s character, but I don’t. It’s only natural that Sansa would attribute the crimes against her family to Cersei, considering how the queen treated her. As to why the showrunners put that scene in the show, I agree with your assessment.
No, Braavos being anti-slavery is not canon because it wasn’t presented in the show itself. DVD extras don’t count as canon.
I can’t remember when Arya began reciting her kill list, but Cersei was certainly on it. So it’s possible that Hot Pie was aware of that.
Grandmaester Flash,
I believe the first time Arya recited her list was when she was a prisoner in Harrenhal.
Thanks Tron79 for the photos even if they were taken down – it’s always nice to see photos of the less talked about actors, especially Alfie, Jonathan, and Dean Charles at the Oscars, with both of their films in contention! Big night for all. 🙂
Maisie and Reuben are kind of awesome, and so involved in building up small creator content with the company.
Thanks. Alfie had some really outstanding photos at the oscars.. I enjoy following the actors to see what they are up to. It’s also cool to see Tommen growing up!
kevin1989,
Hot Pie hears many rumors, and recalling how much Arya hated Cersei, he repeats one unflattering to Cersei. By that standard, anything he hears is “common knowledge,” even though hearing rumors which conflict with each other is commonplace.
You yourself linked to stories about continued public interest in JFK’s assassination. Fifty-plus years after a full investigation of huge amounts of evidence, there are still large public doubts about the conclusions in the Warren Report. (And that is in a world where “magic,” and “the gods,” are not serious explanations.) There’s no reason to believe the inhabitants of King’s Landing ever agreed on one explanation, either.
Mr Derp,
Still no evidence to support your “dropped plot point” claim, we see. Quelle surprise.
I read this site for the many great insights authors and commenters provide. When I saw your assertion about how the people of King’s Landing had loved The High Sparrow at the time of his death, that got my attention. I’ve watched Seasons 5 and 6 multiple times, yet had never noticed such a thing. I eagerly awaited for you to elaborate, to show me what I had missed.
But you didn’t; you just kept repeating your opinion as if it were a fact, and then using this as basis for complaining of a “dropped plot point.” When called on how unfair to the show this was, you replied with a jejune taunt of the form, “show me yours and I’ll show you mine.”
Well, if you act like a schoolboy, I’ll treat you like one. If you ignore the most basic conventions of facts, logic and reason, you’ll get a lecture on those basics. That you don’t like being on the receiving end of such lectures doesn’t make them “personal attacks” (what did you believe, that I would reach both hands through the screen and go all Valonquar on you?), just an accurate description of your failures. And no, stating your opinion as fact, treating honest requests for evidence as personal affronts, and complaining about getting called on your unfair criticism of the show does not constitute a demonstration of respect for this site and your fellow readers. Rather the opposite, in fact.
I asked you not to comment in such ways here. As you noted, I have no enforcement authority. I’m merely a messenger; what you do with the message is your business. Have a good day, sir.
Seven hells, this like is the longest and most annoying game of table tennis ever played.
Young Dragon,
Nah, they are canon. But nowhere in the History and Lore was it ever said that the Iron Bank was anti-slavery.
Tron79,
Did we ever see this Vogue video before?
“24 Hours with Maisie Williams” – Vogue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2OuV0sEa9o
(Maisie Williams at Fashion Week 2019)
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
I haven’t followed this whole back and forth, but from what I remember, the Sparrows gained power through sheer numbers, nobody could get rid of them because there were hundreds, if not thousands of them. They travelled to KL from other Kingdoms, and the poor within KL joined the cause. When Cersei armed them, it was game over. They didn’t all die in the Sept explosion, but without a leader, would they revolt? Or just go back to where they came from? I don’t know, but I do think that the Sept explosion was too ‘neat’.
I personally think Cersei will die soon after this in the books, she’s not smart enough to be Queen, obviously she is smarter in the show, and they weren’t going to kill her off in S7. So they had to tie things up and put her on the throne. She then positioned Dany as a greater threat to keep the Lords on side, so it was briefly covered in the show.
I also think we are meant to understand that the story got out, people know what she did, but they can’t do anything. Olenna obviously joins Dany, and the others side with Cersei against them. Hot Pie had to have heard the story, how else would he even know about the explosion? Never mind who did it. He also happens to be 100% correct, it would have been more realistic to have him say that Tyrion snuck back into KL to kill his enemies, something totally ridiculous.
Farimer123,
Given their origins, it would be pretty weird if they were pro slavery. It’s like the Golden Company, they wouldn’t fight with Cersei against a Targaryen, their leaders are practically Targaryens themselves. They never covered that in the show, so it doesn’t matter, all part of keeping Cersei alive longer than she should have been. She needed allies from somewhere against a totally OP Dany.
Farimer123,
If I’m not mistaken Braavos was founded by slaves who broke free. Founding the House of Black and White was their revolution -as in Death is salvation from misery. (it’s in Arya’s chapters). Also, they’re blatantly anti-dragon. But it also happens that they’re bankers, so they don’t take these things into consideration?
Young Dragon,
The only thing Sansa did to expedite things was to tell Cersei that they were leaving (if I’m not mistaken; this is definitely in the books). But that’s hardly “she had him arrested”.
Ned forgot the #1 rule of conspiracies: don’t tell.
Stupid fool told Cersei that he knew her children were Jamie’s. They were illegitimate, so they had no claim on the throne, neither did she as a queen with no offspring of the king.
Also, Ned notified Stannis about the illegitimacy of Cersei’s children; he also conspired with Renly and LF. All that is high treason tenfold.
High treason gets you arrested, not your kid.
High treason gets you killed.
The capital punishment is reserved for conspirators in all medieval regimes.
Ned should have known better. He went into KL with the intention to investigate the death of Jon Arryn, taking his daughters with him. Unwittingly (?) he made them first his cover for being there (because of Sansa’s betrothal) and then he allowed that they become the regime’s hostages while he conspired against the Lannisters. What did he think, that if anything went wrong they wouldn’t use them against him? That they wouldn’t be used for making the North to comply? That they’d be treated as well as he treated his own hostage, Theon?
Forgive me for saying this, but Ned is the personification of the “Northern fool”. He deserved what happened to him.
His girls on the other hand, and his boys, didn’t deserve one bit what happened to them because of his stupidity. He was the adult. They were the minors.
Thanks for the video. Yes I did see at least part of that one when it first came out. She is a model, singer, actor, dancer, and entrepreneur! The camera really does love her. It’s pretty amazing. I do hope she gets to sink her teeth into a major dramatic role as I posted earlier. She will probably be sinking her teeth into someone as Wolfsbane too.
A bit off topic but on some of the thumbnails of anti-season 8 videos I’ve seen (but not necessarily clicked on), I’ve noticed pictures of a GoT character (often Daenerys) with large bug eyes (a bit like the eyes that are used when making soft toys for children – only these eyes are disproportionately large). Does anybody know where the use of the bug eyes came from – their use in thumbnails is becoming hackneyed and stale now. I saw something of that type in association with the “Birds of Prey” film recently though I haven’t seen “Birds of Prey” so can’t say if it’s to my liking or not.
Tron79,
“She [Maisie] will probably be sinking her teeth into someone as Wolfsbane too.“
If the rumors are true, I’m anticipating that Maisie as Rahne Sinclair/Wolfsbane in “New Mutants” will probably do more than sink her teeth into bad guys.
In a roundabout way, I may finally get the Wolf Girl + Dany bonding moments I had been looking forward to before S8 of Game of Thrones. It looks like there will be high thread count, interpersonal Wolf Girl + Dani scenes in “New Mutants.”
From Screenrant:
The official New Mutants trailer…
“features much in the way of previously-unseen footage from the dark, horror-flavored superhero film. It also hints heavily at [spoiler] a LGBT romance that’s been rumored, but unconfirmed, for much of the last year.
Among other things, The New Mutants trailer shows Rahne Sinclair aka Wolfsbane (Game of Thrones’ Maisie Williams) and Dani Moonstar aka Mirage (Another Life costar Blu Hunt) both alone together and, in a different moment, being fairly intimate with one another. It was rumored last March the two characters would be in a romantic relationship in the film, and the trailer strongly suggests that is, in fact, the case. Adding more fuel to the fire, a separate report claiming Wolfsbane and Mirage have a romance in The New Mutants only dropped a couple days into 2020.
————
From Entertainment Weekly:
https://ew.com/movies/new-mutants-trailer-breakdown/
Rumors have been swirling recently about The New Mutants possibly seeing Rahne and Dani in a relationship. Though it remains unconfirmed, the trailer seems to suggest it’s true. As they say, huge if true. It would mark the first lead LGBTQ superheroes in a major comic book-based Hollywood film.
***
It’s also appropriate that a werewolf-like mutant finds herself drawn to another with the last name of “Moonstar.”
Especially after the interminable delays, it would be nice if this movie is a hit, with Maisie again taking on a groundbreaking role.
Right, so no mystery then about Hot Pie knowing that Arya hates Cersei. He was with her at Harrenhal.
Young Dragon,
As for Sansa: Cersei was the one that helped her with many things, even Sansa saw that Cersei hated what Joffrey did to Ned. This was by far what Cersei wanted. Cersei have enough to be blamed for, but killing of the Starks wasn’t one of them.
As for the dvd-extra: It is cannon because D&D made it cannon. It was the history and lore of the show version of the story. Just as with the books it’s cannon what GRRM writes in his other books like Fire and Blood, it’s only there to be a contribution to the main story, but it’s still cannon. D&D wrote this dvd extra as building of their cannon.
Extra’s on DVD bluray etc are cannon because they are on the official release where we paid for. It’s like the names of every houses that is at the end of the books, it’s not part of the official story, but it was with the release of the books.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
There’s a difference between those 2, as you state it’s 50 years, and they just released some stuff 2 years ago (official) with the released documents that they even admitted they can’t release 200+ documents because of security. The state admitted there was more too it than was told 50 years ago.
With Cersei it’s just a month or 2. Words doesn’t travel that fast. And if the common folk really believed the story of Cersei there wouldn’t be talk. Yes some would talk about it and suspect, but the chance that it became such a big news at the inn that Hot Pie could state it as a fact to Arya, well let’s say I rather put my money on the state lottery.
It would be more logical if hot pie would have spoken like: The sept of Baelor was blown up, some think Cersei was to blame.
Arya: Knowing Cersei, it was probably her.
Farimer123,
Waouh, that’s a lot of comment, not sure I read them all or remember who said what. So just my two cents.
On Sansa/Cersei: I agréé with Young Dragon. It’s coherent with Westeros and Sansa’s évolution. Besides, Cersei tore the King ‘s Last decree, put her bastard on the thrones, named herself Queen regent, named Tywyn hand, so she is fully responsible for all this (even Tywyn holds her so for not controlling Joffrey) . Not a continue error, possibly an hyperbole (Tyrion:”Figure of speech”). Agree with Efi: Ned was a fool, trying to play the game while sucking at the rules, but disagree : not as big a traitor as Cersei (he just changed a wording, she had the King killed, lied about her children, and trespassed his last decree).
Hot Pie and Sept: He says “I *heard* Cersei did it” and “can’t think someone could do that” (not sure about the exact wording). For me it means “rumor, a bit hard to believe” ans Arya’s answer “yeah, sounds plausible”, so I agree with Tensor the Mage, a suspicion, not a everybody knows. Also agree we never see thé masses supporting the HS (we hear himself suggest so, and some fancy people who never bother to care about what the masses think assuming it). What we did see is the masses cheering Margery (whom the HS jails), and rejoicing at Cersei ‘s atonement- just like they cheered Ned’ s beheading or Euron with his captives (“they just enjoy heads on spikes”). I was not surprised by their lack of reaction (we’ve been told before that they don’t care who has the power. They only rioted earlier when there was a food shortage: Sansa has not forgotten when she worries about feeding her people in the last seasons).
Is there any indication Hot Pie ever overheard Arya reciting her list?
• In S2e3 [the origin of Arya’s list from Yoren’s recital of “Willem” as prayer], Hot Pie was in the room when Arya was recounting to Yoren how she vividly remembers seeing Joffrey, Cersei and Sansa standing on the dais when Ned was executed. However, Hot Pie and the other NW recruits were sound asleep*, and there was nothing to suggest Hot Pie overheard the conversation:
S2e3 Arya and Yoren
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj72-2TkX9Q
Arya: “How do you sleep?”
Yoren: “Same as most men, I think.”
Arya: “But you’ve seen things. Horrible things.”
Yoren: “Aye. I’ve seen some pretty things, too, but not nearly so many.”
Arya: “How do you sleep when have those things in your head?”
Yoren: “You didn’t see that! I made damn sure.”
Arya: “I close my eyes and I see them up there. All of them standing there. Joffrey, the Queen and…and my sister.”
Yoren: “You know, we’ve got something in common, me and you.
You know that? I must have been a couple of years older than you.
I saw my brother stabbed through the heart right on our doorstep.
He weren’t much of a villain what skewered him. Willem, the lad’s name was….”
* Fun Fact: Not only was Hot Pie sleeping, but Ben Hawkey actually fell asleep during the filming of that scene. 😴 (Now that’s what I call method acting!)
———
• Later [in S3e2], while Hot Pie, Arya and Gendry were journeying through the Riverlands after escaping Harrenhal, Gendry started whinging to Arya about squandering the three kills offered by Jaqen. Gendry complained that Arya could have named Joffrey or Tywin. Neither Gendry nor Hot Pie mentioned Cersei.
———
Arya, Hot Pie & Gendry S3e2 (before meeting Thoros and BwoB)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDroNbd0-5U
Gendry: “I’m just trying to understand.”
Arya: “Would you please shut up about it?”
Gendry: “Jaqen H’ghar offered you three kills.”
Arya: “- I’m not listening.”
Gendry: “- But just explain it to me.
He offered to kill any three people you wanted. Dead. All you had to do was give him the names. Anyone.
You could have picked King Joffrey…”
Arya: “Shut up!”
Gendry: “- You could have picked Tywin Lannister.”
Arya: “Jaqen got us out of Harrenhal, so why are you complaining?”
Gendry: “But you could have ended the war.”
Arya: “Where are we going?”
Gendry: “North.”
Arya: “If we were going north, we should have come to the Red Fork River by now.”
Hot Pie: “Maybe we already passed it.”
Arya: “It’s 100 feet wide. HOW could we have passed it? If we hit the Red Fork, we can follow it west to Riverrun. My mother grew up there. My grandfather’s a lord. He’ll protect us.”
***
—————-
Yeah, I know this is hardly conclusive evidence that Hot Pie didn’t know Cersei was on Arya’s hit list. I’m just not aware of anything that demonstrates he did.
Efi,
“Ned forgot the #1 rule of conspiracies: don’t tell. Stupid fool told Cersei that he knew her children were Jamie’s. They were illegitimate, so they had no claim on the throne, neither did she as a queen with no offspring of the king…”
Ned also forgot Rule #2 of conspiracies: Make absolutely sure your own daughters are safe and sound, far away from the zone of danger, before you give your enemy a head’s up so she can get her kids out of town.
Ned was so concerned about the welfare of Cersei’s incest bastards once the sh*t hit the fan; I guess he “kind of forgot” about his own children.
I understand that in the books Sansa went whining to Cersei that Ned was sending her back to WF. On the show, it was solely Ned’s decision to alert Cersei (that he’d discovered her kids were bastards, and that she’d better leave town with them ASAP because he intended to reveal the truth to Robert upon his return from his hunting trip), that placed both of his daughters in peril. Either way, he should have packed up Sansa and Arya and immediately whisked them away. He could have dealt with Sansa’s distress over leaving her beloved Joffrey and Arya’s disappointment over the interruption of her lessons with Syrio, after they were back home.
I thought in GRRM’s world there was always a premium on taking family members as hostages. How could Ned not foresee that Cersei would attempt to take custody of his daughters to use them as bargaining chips?
Maybe Ned could not foresee exactly how events would unfold Yet he surely should have anticipated that dropping the bombshell on Cersei would unleash a sh*tstorm. He was not on his home turf. and had even admitted to Arya as soon as they’d arrived in KL: “We’ve come to a dangerous place.”
Ned had also traveled to KL in the first place, at least in part, to investigate the suspicious death of Jon Arryn and Lysa’s accusation that the Lannisters had murdered him. He’d already seen Cersei’s vicious streak on the trip south when she insisted on killing Sansa’s direwolf. (As I recall, Cat followed Ned south after finding the blonde hair in the WF tower, and then got bamboozled by LF once she got there, so that she believed the Lannisters were responsible for both Bran’s fall as well as the subsequent assassination attempt.)
With all that he knew and already suspected, how in the world could Ned think Cersei would just cave in to his ultimatum and go on the run (no doubt pursued by a vengeful cuckolded Robert)?
The “honorable” Ned Stark may have disclosed what he’d discovered to Cersei and given her advance warning because he did not want to have the blood of Cersei’s kids on his hands. Did he not consider that his own children could be targeted by a vindictive Cersei?
I still don’t understand what he was thinking.
Do the books justify Ned’s failure to get his daughters out of harm’s way before confronting Cersei? Was he just a “stupid fool”? That’s how I perceived him on the show insofar as his daughters’ safety was concerned. (After all, whatever plan he had and whatever risks to himself he was willing to take, all went to sh*t because both of his daughters were still in KL when he made his move. Neither one of his daughters knew why it was imperative that they leave – and not tell a soul about it.)
I did not intend to go off on a Ned-bashing rant. It’s just that for all the show! and book! backstory establishing Ned as a loving father and role model (and devoted brother who sacrificed so much to protect his sister’s son from danger and keep him safe), it seemed to me that he utterly failed when it came to fulfilling his primary, overriding responsibility as a father: protecting his children.
In my book, that obligation far outweighed the importance of solving the mystery of Jon Arryn’s sudden death; retracing Jon Arryn’s investigation; safeguarding Cersei’s bastards from Robert’s wrath; ensuring the proper line of succession; and sparing his friend from embarrassment.
Am I wrong?
Efi,
My reply (about “stupid fool” Ned) stuck in Moderation as of 10:25 pm. Not sure why. 🤢
Efi,
I think you misunderstood me. I’m saying that Sansa would hold Cersei responsible for Ned’s death, despite her not giving the order, because she had him arrested under false pretenses. I never said Sansa should be blamed. Her telling Cersei never even happened in the show.
kevin1989,
Maybe you’re thinking about the books, because I don’t recall a scene where Cersei expressed her displeasure regarding Ned’s death while Sansa was present. Regardless, Cersei still had Ned arrested and put him on that platform. If that never happened, Ned would still be alive.
The show is canon. Only the show. Nothing else. A lot of people don’t watch the extras anyway, so how can that be considered canon?
Jenny,
…the Sparrows gained power through sheer numbers, nobody could get rid of them because there were hundreds, if not thousands of them. They travelled to KL from other Kingdoms, and the poor within KL joined the cause. When Cersei armed them, it was game over. They didn’t all die in the Sept explosion, but without a leader, would they revolt?
Bingo. They had numbers, and once Cersei had armed them *and* told the Gold Cloaks not to interfere with them, they could do as they liked. (The montage showing the creation of the Faith Militant from the Sparrows and their rampage through King’s Landing has a merchant appeal to a Gold Cloak for help as the goon squad ravages his business; the Gold Cloak silently turns away.) Armed and organized beats otherwise; Cersei knew she could recover the situation by ordering the armed and armored Gold Cloaks to destroy the goons. (Until she was caught in a trap of her own making…)
We can assume every member of the Faith Militant, and all of the Sparrows who could fit, would be in the Sept during the trials of the highborn sinners. Once The High Sparrow, all of the Faith Militant, and many Sparrows died, the survivors would be leaderless. Even if they were still armed, Cersei could (and would) send the Gold Cloaks to mow them down, or expel them from the city.
I also think we are meant to understand that the story got out, people know what she did, but they can’t do anything. Olenna obviously joins Dany, and the others side with Cersei against them. Hot Pie had to have heard the story, how else would he even know about the explosion? Never mind who did it.
Sure, there were probably lots of rumors, and Hot Pie told Arya one she might like to hear; to a captain of the Lannister Guard, he might have repeated a completely different rumor about another topic. He works at an Inn, and if he’s learned anything there, it’s to chat up customers with what they want to hear.
He also happens to be 100% correct…
I liked the running gag about unschooled nobody Hot Pie being completely right about every topic on which he speaks, at least from “Winterhell” onwards.
Given their origins, it would be pretty weird if they were pro slavery. It’s like the Golden Company, they wouldn’t fight with Cersei against a Targaryen, their leaders are practically Targaryens themselves.
I believe A Man told A Girl about how the Faceless Men originated in the mines of Valyria, killing their masters. I don’t recall the show telling us anything about the Iron Bank’s foundation.
Even if both institutions were founded by former slaves, Tycho Nestoris’ noncommittal response to Cersei need not be interpreted as an endorsement of slavery. As we know, Dany abolished slavery with no idea of what to do next; the economic dislocation this would have caused might have impinged upon the Iron Bank’s business. So, even if the Iron Bank was founded by escaped slaves and cherished that institutional memory, Dany was bad for business in the short term; hence Tycho’s equivocal talk with Cersei.
Efi,
Good run-down on Ned’s various foolish stupidities. He did a few more foolishly incendiary things, apparently confident that nothing could go wrong so long as he had Robert’s patronage:
— When Cat made the incredible mistake of kidnapping the heir to one of the Great Houses of Westeros, Ned took responsibility for it;
— When Robert ordered his Hand to have Tyrion released, Ned ignored this direct order (!) from his friend and King;
— Ned responded to The Mountain’s provocation in the Riverlands (almost surely ordered by Tywin) by summoning Tywin to the capital, giving Tywin an excuse to come in force;
— Ned betrayed the last request of his dying friend (!!) and King, first by altering his Last Will and Testament, and then by refusing to act as Lord Protector of the Realm and Regent to Joffrey, as Robert had so ordered with his dying breath (!!!). (How this unfaithful idiot ever got a reputation for being “honorable,” I’ll never know.)
Ned forgot the #1 rule of conspiracies: don’t tell.
And he didn’t even have to conspire, really. He was Lord Protector of the Realm, Regent to Joffrey. With absolutely perfect legality, he could have commanded the Kingsguard (to keep Joffrey and Cersei briefly under house arrest), and had Baelish pay the Gold Cloaks to support these claims. From there, he packs Cersei off to Casterly Rock, essentially adopts Joffrey, and starts being an actual father figure to the boy. Given that Show!Joffrey had the only good ideas on governance in the early part of the story, they might have made a really good team. But that would not have made for as entertaining a story, now would it? 😉
High treason gets you arrested, not your kid.
Maybe not on Westeros, but in actual Dark Age England it could. In response, the American Constitution severely limits the definition of treason, and limits the punishment to the traitor alone, not his family.
kevin1989,
”So Dany is responsible for her father’s crime? Tyrion was responsible for the crimes of Tywin? Sandor of the crimes that [Gregor] did? Doran was responsible for the crime of murdering Myrcella because he was the head of the house?
No they weren’t. So neither was Cersei [for] the crimes of her father and son. She did her own crimes that she should pay for. And if Sansa sees it as that [Cersei] is responsible for the crimes of her father and son, that makes Sansa a dangerous person.
No, the simple answer is that they wanted a sentence that stick to the story of the show and want the audience to re-feel the dislike for Cersei again. But still it’s a [continuity] error. (Not a plothole that is something else.)”
I concur. I reviewed (again) the except you cited (from S7e3), in which Sansa referred to Cersei as
“The woman who murdered my mother, father and brother,” and the excerpt I had referred to (from S7e2), in which Tyrion told Dany that Jon Snow has more reasons than Dany to hate Cersei because the Lannisters killed Ned and conspired to murder Robb,
As you noted, while Cersei has an impressive rap sheet, she did not murder Catelyn, Ned or Robb. Cersei had nothing to do with the Red Wedding, and had agreed with Ned on a false confession/exile to the Wall deal – which Psycho Joffrey unexpectedly repudiated.
Further, I too did not interpret Sansa’s declaration to LF as implying that any murders committed by any Lannisters were automatically attributable to Cersei. As with the examples you listed (e.g., Sandor & Gregor; Dany & Aerys; Tyrion & Tywin), a family member isn’t guilty just because he or she is related by blood to the killer.
In fact, Jon Snow made it abundantly clear (in S7e1?) that he would not impute to the Umber and Karstark kids their fathers’ treasons; and (in S7e3?) he agreed that Dany was not responsible for her father’s crimes against the Starks.
Therefore, Sansa’s description of Cersei as “the woman who murdered my mother, father and brother” was either a continuity error, or a sloppy retcon to vilify Cersei – long after the departures of the real perpetrators (Tywin and Joffrey) from the show. I do not recall anything suggesting Sansa was misled, or mistakenly believed Cersei was complicit. Sansa’s declaration to LF came out of left field.
So, while Sansa – and the audience – had good reasons to despise Cersei, those reasons did not include the murders of Cat, Ned or Robb.
I don’t know if the writers just assumed the audience would forget what had been established as show canon, in order to portray Cersei as the “Big Bad,” or to give Sansa (and Arya) personal motives for seeking vengeance against Cersei.
The only other possibility I can think of was not addressed in the show: That both Sansa and Arya* mistakenly assumed Cersei was behind Ned’s execution, and never realized that it was all vicious Joffrey’s stupid last-minute idea. However, that still wouldn’t explain attributing the murders of Robb and Catelyn to Cersei.
* As I recall, Arya blamed Joffrey (and later, Sandor) for Mycah’s death. I must be forgetting how Cersei made it onto Arya’s list. Did she blame Cersei for Ned’s execution? Or was it for insisting on killing Lady in place of Nymeria?
I do know that when the friendly Lannister soldiers in S7e1 asked Arya why she was heading to KL, she answered “I’m going to kill the Queen,” and they though it was a joke. In S7e4 Bran told Arya he “saw” her at the Crossroads and thought she’d be heading to KL because “Cersei’s on her list of names.” And finally, in S8e4 she rode to KL and in S8e5 infiltrated the Red Keep, insisting Sandor: “I’m going to kill her!”
I must be drawing a blank. 🤢
Yes, at least initially, it was for having to send Nymeria away, and poor Lady dying. Then having Ned arrested for treason.
Young Dragon,
Ok, so the “she had him arrested” was “Cersei had him arrested”? (don’t mind me, I’m not English native, these sudden changes of subject confuse me). Sorry.
I got the point. I understand that Sansa might need to suppress her own mistake there (which imo wasn’t a mistake because she had been kept away from Ned’s worries, unlike Arya) by accusing Cersei, but your comment got me thinking to what extent is Cersei not culpable for the events.
Even if she wasn’t involved in Ned’s execution or in the Red Wedding, this entire thing started because they were trying to cover up her crimes. Her incest with Jamie is not something that’s just between them. It’s something that affects an entire kingdom. In the show she even made sure to get rid of Robert’s babies. This is treason, since Robert wasn’t just her husband whom she didn’t like so she cheated, he was the king and he needed those heirs.
In the books there’s no such thing, and Cersei only has three children, all Jamie’s. Now that I think about it perhaps that’s the reason why Martin made Cersei so bad in the books. Perhaps he’s building her culpability that will lead to her death. Cersei drowned her friend Melara first when she was very young. This would point to a criminal behavior almost from childhood. The point would be, I guess, to showcase how she’s fully conscious of what she’s doing, and how she’s doing it to take her revenge on Robert, and for this she’s using Jamie (who’s as dumb as it gets, but I digress).
So it was Jamie who pushed Bran out of the window to cover up the incest; it was whoever who tried to kill him again (probably for the same reason, but we’ll see); it was Joffrey who ordered Ned’s execution because Joffrey knew that Ned knew; it was Tywin who plotted for the RW. Cersei’s criminal behavior got her entire family involved in the most heinous crimes; everything happened for her and her children whose birth was the product of crime anyway.
In all this, only Tommen and Myrcella are without guilt. And even though Cersei wasn’t directly involved in the RW and Ned’s execution she looks guilty as a moral instigator, since her initial crime (incest, treason against the king) started a chain of events that turned out to be catastrophical for the entire kingdom.
AnnOther,
“Agree with Efi: Ned was a fool, trying to play the game while sucking at the rules, but disagree : not as big a traitor as Cersei (he just changed a wording, she had the King killed, lied about her children, and trespassed his last decree).”
Totally, but it’s not about who’s treason is worst. They both committed treason, it’s just that Cersei committed treason against Robert and she won because she moved faster after he died. She wouldn’t have, had Ned kept silent about his plans. Ned acted honorably, but honor got him arrested and killed.
Ned didn’t take into account -or he did, but chose to disregard it out of a sense of righteousness perhaps- is that Cersei was the queen anyway, and she had a powerful family behind her. She wasn’t alone in this, while Robert was, because the Lannisters had taken the entire state mechanism to their side. When you’re wearing the crown you’re still the king no matter if someone thinks that you shouldn’t. Joffrey was king after Robert died, and Joffrey won because he had his family’s support, so Ned was found on the guilty side and what he did was treason.
Had he won he’d be hailed as a kingmaker by putting Stannis on the throne. But he didn’t win so he was charged with high treason.
Ten Bears,
“Did she blame Cersei for Ned’s execution? Or was it for insisting on killing Lady in place of Nymeria?”
Watching the show it seems as if Cersei appears out of the blue in Arya’s list, while the audience knows that Cersei is not directly responsible for Ned’s execution.
But I think it’s both these things, Ned’s execution and Mika (not Lady). Arya would knew who wanted Mika dead. Arya also knew who ordered her father’s arrest; had he not been arrested, he’d be alive.
No, we weren’t shown Hot Pie witnessing Arya reciting her list, but we aren’t shown everything. They were together for a while and the list became part of Arya’s routine, so it’s fair to assume he was aware of it.
As for the conversation about Jaqen and the three named victims. Gendry wasn’t concerned with Arya’s personal feelings, but the greater good. Killing Cersei wouldn’t have ended the war. But he might have gone on to mention her if Arya hadn’t changed the subject.
Anyway it’s just a minor point addressed to whoever suggested that Hot Pie couldn’t have known about Arya’s hatred of Cersei.
Lots to agree with here.
Sansa’s declaration was a bunch of crock as we rushed to a poorly conceived ending all kinds of nonsense was said by the characters. Often, characters behaved in all sorts of weird ways and said all kinds of ridiculous things.
Of course, since Daenerys forgot about Euron’s fleet (the defining asset of Euron!), perhaps Sansa forgot how her family members died. Right???
Lots to agree with here.
And as for the “will changing” stunt, Ned betrayed his king’s specific death bed wishes. Regardless of the genetic’s, Joffery and Robert seem to have had a father-son bond to the best they could experience such a bond. Parental bonds do not only depend on genetics as any person that has adopted or fostered can attest.
Also, generally from my experience, men who discover years later that the child they reared as their kid is not genetically their’s do not generally abandon/renounce them – the bonds remain and are usually reaffirmed based on love and shared lives. Divorce may follow regarding the wife, but Dad remains Dad regarding the children. People can be complicated.
And if Ned strongly believed that blood/genetics was the determinant of the line of kingship, he should have sent for surviving Targs (Viserion) after the rebellion instead of putting Robert on the throne. I may be wrong but I think both he and Robert knew Aerys had living heirs.
I think all this analysis of Sansa’s statement to Baelish is a little over-wrought. 🙂 As the end of her statement just drips with sarcasm about his wise counsel, her entire statement can be interpreted as, “I already know what you’re telling me; please try harder.” As with Arya saying of the mass-murdering Dany, “I know a killer when I see one,” the literal statement is useless to the point of being nonsensical. There is some actual meaning behind the words.
Had he won he’d be hailed as a kingmaker by putting Stannis on the throne. But he didn’t win so he was charged with high treason.
Ned: It’s treason!
Baelish: Only if we lose.
Young Dragon,
If ned had listened to Renly, he wouldn’t have been imprisoned and survived. Maybe we should blame Ned for his death. Or maybe if grand maester Pycelle wouldn’t have given Ned the book, Ned wouldn’t have found out and confronted Cersei and he wouldn’t be imprisoned in the end. Or maybe Robert, if he never took Ned south, Ned would be alive.
Sansa’s word were literally that Cersei killed them, she didn’t state: Cersei the women responsible, no literally the one that killed them. If that Sansa interpreted it as Cersei being responsible for the actions that lead to their death, She would have articulate it different. Especially with Robb and her mother Cersei had nothing to do with, she didn’t plan anything. She didn’t intent it either.
Cersei have a lot to be blamed for, there is no need to add some things to the list like killing Ned, Robb & Cat that she wasn’t to be blamed for, especially the last 2.
Ten Bears,
This.
Such blanket criticisms are completely meaningless without specific examples. It really says something that when you do provide specifics, such as Danerys “forgetting the Iron Fleet, they happen to be completely wrong, because that never happened.
Young Dragon,
He is just a hater who throws any senseless things into the room, so he can justify his negativity. The best example for what’s wrong with this fandom.
kevin1989,
Extras are not canon that’s not how that works.
Young Dragon,
Benioff told it that Dany forgot the Iron fleet. So they wrote it that way, it’s their script. You can interpretet it otherwise, but Benioff and Weiss wrote is that Dany forgot the Iron Fleet and so it’s canon. They know the story better that they write than we. And they say she forgot, so she forgot. Or else they don’t know the story that they wrote, which is a lack of understanding of their story. So what is it, did she forgot the iron fleet or did D&D not understand what they were writing about?
Fireandblood87,
Than you should really educate yourself about how film-making works and how DVD/bluray extra’s are chosen.
Extra’s are not chosen just for fun to contradict the main story. It’s there to expend and explain what is happening on screen. Adding extra’s that are not cannon is amateurish. And with a show like GoT that is on par (production wise) with LotR and other big names, they won’t add extra’s just for the fun of adding some stuff, they add them because they expend the show and is part of the show.
If an extra is not canon, it will not be included to a DVD box, because then it would not belong to the official released box.
A great example of this is with LOST. On the dvd-box they show us the epilogue of the show that was not shown on our screens when the show aired. They waited for the epilogue till the DVD-box. It was called “the new man in charge”. They could not show this on screen because it could only fit in at the end of the show, and it worked better and an extra instead of adding to the last episode (Which would have broken the episode if they added it at the end because it didn’t belong in the same episode, and airing an 8 minute episode a week later is also not done). This ending is canon confirmed by the writers of the show.
As for the history and lore:
1. It explains things that can’t be told on screen, but it’s canon so it needed to be added to the show in another way: a DVD extra.
2. While you try to defend the writing of D&D by stating History and lore is not canon. At the same time you insult Bryan Cogman with it. He poured his heart and soul into them, and a lot of time writing the scripts of those segments. Getting actors/ directors (yes even drawn scenes need a director) and more together to make them happen. Stating that his hard work is not part of the show-canon is just a great insult to his work. (And feels the same as people stating season 8 never happened).
edit: In film-making they call this “the word of god”, you can look it up. It explains why extra’s on a DVD shows are canon.
kevin1989,
Ok. So, Cersei imprisons Ned, puts him on trial, and threatens the lives of his daughters in order to extract a false confession out of him, all of which directly results in him losing his head. Are you seriously comparing all of that with Pycelle handing Ned a book? I have to say, I don’t always agree with what you say, but I never considered you to be a hater. That’s why I don’t understand why your arguments are resembling those of haters more and more every day. I mean, you are seriously grasping at straws here, you have to see that, right?
Whether she killed Ned directly, or only played a significant role, there’s nothing wrong with Sansa saying Cersei killed Ned, just like there was nothing wrong with Bran saying Joffrey killed him in season 2. Joffrey gave the order, but he didn’t swing the blade.
In Westeros, people are judged for the crimes of their families. I’m not saying it’s right, but we’ve seen it several times over the course of the series.
kevin1989,
No, that may have been D&D’s intent, but intent does not make it canon. There is nothing, and I mean nothing, in the show that indicates Danerys forgot about the Iron Fleet. As for that last bit, that is a juvenile and simplistic take. D&D’s intent didn’t translate on screen. So what? It happens. It’s not the first time the writer’s intent didn’t translate very well, it won’t be the last. Even George RR Martin’s intent didn’t translate very well. He intended for Darkstar to be a badass like the Hound, and yet he turned out to be lame. He intended for Doran to be a master player, but in reality, he turned out to be a moron. Are you saying Martin doesn’t understand what he is writing about?
Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard,
Yes, I think you’re right. The lines are meant to show Sansa’s wit. She’s snarky and ironic to Baelish, as in “you don’t say! Did you figure all this by yourself?” kind of way.
I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed Sansa being so fed up with LF’s bullsh*t, lol. I’d have enjoyed if she had been fed up with Tyrion’s bullsh*t in s8 too, but instead they turned out to be good friends. C’est la vie.
They changed Cersei quite a lot from book to show; they ameliorated the Lannisters to become the heart of the story, and therefore Cersei’s guilt is not apparent to the audience and their crimes against the Starks weren’t addressed in the end, so this discussion seems normal nonetheless, doesn’t it?
The LightKing,
Imo the specifics have been discussed enough. Some of them appear over and over.
We all loved the show otherwise we wouldn’t be here still discussing it.
And it is exactly this love and investment over the years that gives us the right to exert some criticism still.
Of course you can love sth/someone uncritically; but you can also love sth/someone critically.
That doesn’t make any of us haters.
Young Dragon,
Perhaps we can put it to rest now.
The entire “she forgot” thing simply translates a longer story: she was anxious to leave WF and win the IT, so she didn’t take into account her men and her dragons being injured, while the others didn’t put some sense into their queen because of her own urgency. They just didn’t want to contradict her (as they should).
It was a mistake to leave WF so early, hence “she forgot”. She did forget for specific reasons. Even if she hadn’t, with the state of her dragons she wouldn’t be in a position to do a reconnaissance flight to see if there were any amboushes laid out for her. The dragons wouldn’t even fly straight.
Efi,
Hate is no criticism!
Maybe the one or the other should look up how a right argument is structured but just to say that this is shit, this is ridiculous, this makes no sense without any explanation is just hating!
The LightKing,
Mango has expressed criticism in very, very logical terms over and over since season 8 aired.
As for the word that bothered you, yes, admittedly it is a characterization but derives from the estimates of Mango that follow in the same sentence. And these estimates are a product of long expressed criticism in older posts.
Also, I think people are bored talking about the same stuff over and over; therefore it is easier to throw characterizations, it happens. So lighten up, it’s not that bad. We’re here discussing about our -still- favorite show even though in terms that you do not like. We’re entitled to it just as you’re entitled to your own opinion.
But unlike Sansa and Daenerys and Jon, Mango and I are real persons.
And even though we are adult enough to not take your “hater” accusation seriously, you might want to reconsider throwing characterizations at real people.
And hater of what exactly? Of a fictional story made up either by Martin or D&D ?
Efi,
Thanks. Well said.
Efi,
Save your excuses. You have the same opinion as Mango. We are here on the Internet and in my opinion you are Hater.
Young Dragon,
I was going to react to you, until you call me a hater. There stops the debate for me, I never became personal to you or called you’re names. And I’m far from being a hater, I love the show and books, they are the things I talked about the most this last 10 years. We can disagree about certain things of the show, but there is no need for name-calling. I never did.
But it seems everyone who doesn’t agree with you is a hater. (I never called you a hater of the books even when you dislike almost everything post book 3 because I respect your opinion)
Efi,
This. But it’s a easy way to win an debate without arguments I think. Putting labels on and put them into a “box”.
The LightKing,
Please stop with this Ad Hominem.
Mango, Efi and others are more objective about the show than some on this site about the books. But somehow we are not resorted to call those haters of the books and we respect their opinion.
This is all I say about it, and for me like many here are a bit tired of the same old debate about “the show is brilliant” vs “the show have some mistakes”. I think well said what we said about the show, we feel how we feel. And personally I’m up for some new debates about the upcoming prequel(s) and winds of winter if we are in luck.
The LightKing,
“Save your excuses. You have the same opinion as Mango. We are here on the Internet and in my opinion you are Hater.”
Lmao! Shame on me! 😂
Mango,
De rien.
kevin1989,
Eh, I think that everything has been overanalyzed at this point, so in the end using characterization instead of reasoning sums up logical thinking, feelings and mood at that particular moment.
We were ok in this niche until some of the posters started to protest about the criticism by others such as you, me, Mango, by throwing names at us. Defending the show is one thing; calling others names and refusing to recognize that everyone has a right to express their own opinion is another.
Whether I am called a hater or not, whether I say (again) what I enjoyed in the show and what I didn’t, it won’t change my opinion about how the show quickly went down the hill script-wise and story-wise. My attempt to rewatch it stopped at ep. 3 (which I thoroughly enjoyed, but it won’t make any difference to those who call me a hater).
kevin1989,
Well, we obviously understand objectivity differently and I don’t understand why you’re interfering unless you feel addressed. I never called you hater, but some user here are Hater and they can’t stop. They keep this discussion rolling!
Efi,
Agree, I’m ready for the prequels I think that will give us nicer debates. I hope we get filming news soon 😀
The LightKing,
I know you didn’t. Young Dragon did to me. And personal attacks are forbidden here. Still you did it to Mango. That’s all I’m going to say on it.
kevin1989,
Calling someone Hater is no personal attack.
kevin1989,
You might want to read the comments more thoroughly. I never called you a hater. In fact, I said I never considered you to be a hater. I still don’t. All I said were your comments were beginning to resemble those of haters. Refusing to accept that season 8 was fast paced, not rushed, even when I provided the textbook definition of pacing, stating things are show canon despite them never actually occurring in the show, and now trying to compare the heinous crimes Cersei committed against Ned in season 1 that directly led to his death with Pycelle handing him a book. It seems that you’re arguing for the sake of arguing. I’m not saying this because I wish to offend you. I’m saying this because you used to be one of my favorite posters, and am now disappointed that this is the path you’re choosing to go down. And you’re wrong about Mango. He is the exact definition of a hater. All he does is come onto this site and spews hate without contributing anything to the conversation. It’s telling that the few times he does go into specifics, like Danerys “forgetting” about the Iron Fleet, he is 100% inaccurate.
I know you love the show, but if I was an outside observer seeing your comments for the first time, I would never be able to guess it.
Comment #300
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Xc45rtvUBtQ/TohkGmZegBI/AAAAAAAAF8Q/C0hSR05wdKw/s1600/lena-headey-1.jpg
Farimer123,
Hey fam. Surprised to see the site is still going strong. I have not thought about the show in a long time but it popped in my head just now. I find it amusing that all the cheerleaders are still going strong, lecturing the mostly now silent detractors, and still thanking ” Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss” lol. Myself, I don’t care if every single member of the cast and TV critics on the net thinks season 8 was the most awesome thing ever I just don’t, never will. But that’s okay. I enjoyed 7 seasons of a cool show I can live with that. What I can’t do is recommend it to anyone that might ask if they should start watching. Also, I don’t believe the actual actors can ever view it through the same lens viewers can. Too close to the source to be objective sorta thing. Also I respect Gillan’s sharing his thoughts on the petition but I don’t agree and found it funny and harmless. Also they shouldn’t put down the fanbase for being so invested to do such a thing as it’s because of that passion and investment that caused your show and your pocketbooks to flourish.
Ygritte,
How can someone be so hateful?
I envy all the people who haven’t seen the show yet and can experience it far from all that idiotic hate and ridiculous backlash.
Ygritte,
“But that’s okay. I enjoyed 7 seasons of a cool show I can live with that. What I can’t do is recommend it to anyone that might ask if they should start watching.”
I can recommend they watch up until S7e4 – and that’s only because I’m an Arya fanboy and watching her arrive back in WF and spar with Brienne were highlights for me.
Otherwise, I’d recommend stopping at the end of S6, when almost all of the storylines left on a high note. (“He’s the heir to the Iron Throne”; “The King in the North! The King in the North”; Yay! Queen Cersei! “Long May she reign!”; “Hey! Here comes the Dragon Queen with HotQ Tyrion and her huge f*cking armada!”; “Buh-bye Lancel; you too Tommen”; the Hound’s gonna help a lot more than he’s harmed!; “My name is Arya Stark. I want you to know that. The last thing you’re ever going to see is a Stark smiling down at you as you die.”)
Ten Bears,
S7 and 8 are part of the story and you must accept that! Just ridiculous that you people act like it was so bad.
The LightKing,
Must I?
Ten Bears,
You must. 😁
Btw, have you checked these out? I thought you might be interested (I picked them up from Martin’s Not a Blog).
http://www.valyriansteel.com/shop/swords/arya-blade/prod_108.html
http://www.valyriansteel.com/shop/swords/arya-blade-damascus/prod_109.html
Efi,
Thanks for that! But for $210 and $330, I’m not so sure a replica of Arya’s VS dagger is in my price range – unless a full-sized disintegrating Night King figurine comes with it. Or a Littlefinger doll with spurting carotid artery and detachable head.
If I have extra money to play with, I’ll probably buy more GoT Royal Mail stamps.
Efi,
“Btw, have you checked these out? I thought you might be interested (I picked them up from Martin’s Not a Blog).”
P.S. If the VS dagger is being advertised as “Arya’s Blade” via a link from GRRM’s blog… I wonder if that means Arya will get that dagger in the books????
Wait… does that mean I’m one of the “you people”?
I think it’s very possible but since there’s no Night King in the book, I think it’d need to serve a different significance for Arya 🙂
It also occurred to me, if you want to read the books but only Arya’s chapters/references to Arya, you can get the digital versions and in addition to only reading Arya’s chapters, you can do searches for the various names Arya has. It’s no boiled leather AFFC/ADWD merger but it’s a way to experience the Arya-only content? 🙂
Ten Bears,
You must!
…. Or, on second thought, I’m wondering if that’s simply just what HBO named this version of the Catspaw dagger? (I think it’s possible she may get this dagger somehow in the books but I think it’s hard to be certain either way)
It looks like there are two different versions of the same dagger under different names as they include this same dagger under its Catspaw name.
Ygritte,
Ten Bears,
Otherwise, I’d recommend stopping at the end of S6, when almost all of the storylines left on a high note.
You can also stop reading The Great Gatsby in the middle, when he’s showing Daisy around his residence; you just haven’t experienced the entire work of art. If that works for you, great, but you shouldn’t call yourself a ‘fan’ of the work if you do.
If the artist stays true to his vision, then the audience should respect that, by accepting the work in full. In the case of “A Song of Ice and Fire,” Martin clearly envisioned Dany as the final villain all along. That’s his vision, and he ensured the producers of the television adaptation stayed true to it. That’s all an artist can do.
Ten Bears,
I feel for you. Prices are always high with such replicas because they’re good replicas with good materials and lots of hand-crafted details. I always want to buy museum jewelry because they’re exact replicas of real jewelry worn by queens. After spending part of my youth in Paris, being too poor to buy something Mary Antoinette wore (lol; I’ll be in Paris in May, perhaps I can buy sth then), I managed to buy in Vienna a pair of earrings modelled on the stars worn by empress Elizabeth of Austria in her hair. It’s not the same thing, because a brooch of the original size would cost double as much (about 120eu), even if it’s just silver and Swarofski crystals instead of gold and diamonds.
The daggers actually have 24 carats gold plate on them and the red crystal in the middle should be expensive.
But if you know any artist doing stuff like that (e.g. jewelry), you could order one for yourself just by showing a picture. These are expensive because they’re authorized by HBO. The stamps are a good idea too; they’re very beautiful.
Ten Bears,
They’re HBO authorized, which means that they come from GoT only. However, the knife re-emerging in the show was such a good detail that could only come from Martin. LF probably has it, like the show, and I think it has a role to play in the books because it’s a Targaryen knife. We’ll see (hopefully).
[now that I think about it, LF wouldn’t part with it that easily; perhaps Sansa will take it with her when she escapes from the Vale and thus the knife will make it back to the Starks].
I know this struggle well! 😆(Those must be beautiful earrings btw)
Are you talking about Empress Sissi?? 🙂 I once designed a costume based on this dress and I have two friends who are costume designers in the Netherlands and they recreated at least two of her dresses 🙂 (this one and her coronation one!) I think they’re currently starting a third!
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Well said.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”You can also stop reading The Great Gatsby in the middle, when he’s showing Daisy around his residence; you just haven’t experienced the entire work of art. If that works for you, great, but you shouldn’t call yourself a ‘fan’ of the work if you do.“
1. Thanks for the tip! I have not read “The Great Gatsby” yet, but if I ever do I’ll be sure to stop reading when Gatsby is showing Daisy around his residence.
2. I called myself a fan of “Dexter” – until it imploded in its final seasons. I was an enthusiastic fan of “The Blacklist” – until it started sucking midway through its second season. Being a “fan” isn’t an all-or-nothing proposition, at least not for me.
3. I consider myself a fan of Game of Thrones even if I wasn’t thrilled with every aspect of “the entire work of art.”
4. For example:
✅ Sandor
✅ Arya
❌ Euron
❌ R+L = J secret = 0; Bran powers = 0
❌ S8 Neutered Jon & Lobotomized Tyrion
✅ S4
❌ Silly Wight Hunt Plan & Bran Bait Plan
❌Ridiculous S7 LF vs Arya vs Sansa WF “plot”
✅ Did I mention Sandor? 🐓🐓
✅ S2 Tyrion
✅ Ygritte ♥️ Jon
✅ Hardhome; The Door
✅ Syrio Forel
✅ Jaqen “A Man Can Go Kill Himself” H’ghar
✅ Kinvara; Volantis street priestess
✅ Jorah; Jorah’s voice
✅ Tywin
❌ Ramsay torture porn
❌ High Sparrow
✅ Cersei vs. Septa Unella
I could go on. The point is, I loved so much of the show… just not all of it.
There’s a terrific South Park episode from a number of years ago where they made fun of society’s obsession and over-diagnosis of ADD in children.
The way they tested to see if a child has ADD or not, they would have someone read the Great Gatsby aloud to all the children and if any of the children became bored or tired with the book then that was the proof that the children had ADD.
Needless to say, it’s considered a classic today, and it’s a good book, but I found it to be rather boring for the most part when I had to read it. The characters are thoroughly unlikable as well, but I think that was Fitzgerald’s point. It’s funny how many people miss the point of the book. Most people glamorize it, but that wasn’t the intention. It’s kind of like how the movie Fight Club initiated all kinds of actual Fight Clubs , which completely missed the point of the movie. Or like how the “greed is good” speech in Wall Street was misconstrued.
Adrianacandle,
Yes, that’s exactly her. I knew you’d have something to say about that! 😉
They have the original size replicas of the stars in the Schatzkammer Museum. Unlike other jewelry and artefacts that are original (such as her mother in-law’s jewelry and the various crowns of the German monarchy dating from the 15th century onwards) these are only copies, but even so they’re extremely impressive. They are brooches in reality that could be attached anywhere, including her hair, but she often wore them on her sash and on her dress (e.g. on the sleeves).
I’d attach a picture of Romy Scneider as Sissy, but the stars she’s wearing in the movie are not exact copies. The original has many rays, making it’s center massive, filled with diamonds. See what an empire can do? I think I had never understood what an empire was before I visited Paris and Vienna.
But it’s kind of touching on a personal level because they have preserved many of her personal items, even the iron she used to curl her hair with (she was burning hair all the time it would seem), even underwear (she was incredibly tiny and short), even the weapon she was murdered with.
Efi,
It’s not just the price. I noticed from the product description that the replica dagger is stainless steel, and includes the warning:
“This item is not a toy, please keep out of the reach of children. This replica is intended solely for display purposes as a collector’s item.“
If my young niece Hannah comes to visit, she would probably take the dagger out of its display case. I’d have to be vigilant…
Me: “This isn’t a toy. Little lady shouldn’t be playing with knives.”
Hannah: “I wasn’t playing. And I don’t want to be a lady.”
😁
Mr Derp,
“The way they tested to see if a child has ADD or not, they would have someone read the Great Gatsby aloud to all the children and if any of the children became bored or tired with the book then that was the proof that the children had ADD.
Needless to say, it’s considered a classic today, and it’s a good book, but I found it to be rather boring for the most part when I had to read it.
It seemed like every school year “Madame Bovary” was assigned reading. I could never make it through it. I tried. Repeatedly.
Good idea! Probably more efficient and less expensive than the “Boiled ASNAWP” extraction I was considering.
Efi,
Yes, I can only imagine how elaborate and impressive those replicas are 😭And I try to wear everything in my hair! I didn’t know you could wear brooches in hair! (But maybe on only certain hairstyles, like ones that involve much styled hair between brooch and scalp, rather than on loose hair….??)
I once went to Paris a few years ago! It was beautiful! I wish I spent my time better while I was there. We spent the whole of one of our only days waiting in line for the Eiffel Tower and one of our other days… inside with Netflix and chips due to sheer laziness and headaches ;; We’re not exactly itinerary-driven — we don’t feel enough urgency while traveling together X_X
On our last day, J confused what train station we were supposed to go to and we thought it was only a 10 min walk. It turned out to be a 30 min RUN and of course, I packed my entire house in a 23kg suitcase to bring with me everywhere I go. While we were running for the train, the handle of my suitcase broke, I collapsed on the street in sobs, despairing, “We’ll never make it!” because we could never afford another train ticket — while J yanked a dangling strap on my 23kg suitcase, pulled it up, and said, “YES WE WILL,” and started running with my overpacked suitcase dragging behind her while I ran after her… crying… throughout the streets of Paris…
We did make it! At the very last second! And we got sandwiches before we realized our mistake and those were the best sandwiches ever 🙂
Those are MY memories of Paris ;D
Those lines, as well as the Louvre, are notorious for being horrible. If you have a chance to make it out to Paris again, I would highly recommend booking a reservation online. I would also recommend getting there either really early or late in the day right before they close. Much less people that way. It’s impossible to avoid waiting, but you could significantly cut down on the waiting time that way.
Thanks for this idea! That’s definitely what I’ll do next time! 🙂 It’s true, waits can’t be avoided entirely but maybe with better planning, like booking online, it’s not a 6-7 hr wait X_X
Adrianacandle,
You’d be surprised how often famous buildings/museums are pretty empty near the end of the day. Most of the tourists are usually gone by then to catch their cruise ship or whatever before it leaves. A lot of people get nervous about missing their ships too, so they leave earlier then they need to.
Mr Derp,
Those are good tips, thank-you! And the end of the day is the best time of day, no need to get up at the crack of dawn (before 10 am) 😉 I will keep this in mind when visiting other cities and planning to see museums/buildings!
Ten Bears,
Oh i’d still recommend it, if someone started watching it now, they could binge it in weeks and have a great time. We wouldn’t be setting them up for a 9 year investment. Personally, I have no desire to watch it again, I don’t hate it or love it, I feel apathetic towards it now. I don’t care enough to debate the quality of it anymore, but I can’t deny that I enjoyed discussing it and theorising along the way. Discussing it after season 8 helped me to accept certain choices and led me to my current state of ‘meh’. Besides Season 8 is far better than 7, if they make it that far, they should finish it.
Ten Bears:
R+L = J secret = 0
Both Jon’s parentage, and the reveal of it to Dany, were two of the most important elements in the entire story. The end-game story after the defeat of the Ice menace led directly to the Fire menace, and that sequence of events began with Jon’s reveal to Dany.
Jon’s parentage was one of the corner-stones of the entire story; it kept Jon & Dany from flying off into the sunset on their dragons, and instead set up Jon Snow’s final conflict, which was always going to be love vs. duty, as that is the conflict which described his entire life.
The reveal of it to Dany was the start of her unraveling. She had based her entire world-view and self-image upon her being The Last Targ’, Rightful Heir to the Throne. When it turned out not to be true, when she was shown to be just another pretender, she despotically attempted to silence Jon. This began the series of events which saw her torch King’s Landing and call it liberation.
Saying R+L = J meant nothing shows a complete misunderstanding of the entire story.
Ten Bears,
I really wonder if you saw the show at all.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
For all the screentime and setup for the reveal of the secret of Jon’s parentage, it just amounted to one of many Dany bugging out factors.
I would have been just as interested in the reveal of Hot Pie’s parents.
S3:
Hot Pie: “My brother weren’t no king.”
Bran: “Yes. Yes he was.”
Geez, maybe I missed it. 🤦🏻
Adrianacandle,
Nowadays you can’t go anywhere near any of those places without a ticket in hand. Pre-booking had just started when I was there (I stayed six months, so I know Paris fairly well by now and I’ve revisited often for various reasons). It wasn’t just buying a ticket on line, which you can now do everywhere; they had appointment visits, like, be there at that time or you’ve missed it. But I’ve seen some of the greatest expos ever, like Botticelli, Gaughin, Van Gogh and Praxitelles. So if you visit again any of Paris, London, Rome, Athens, Madrid, Vienna, make sure to buy tickets in advance; they’d save you lots of time and trouble, but the experience for you, since you’ve studied art (if I remember correctly) will be unique.
But curiously enough I never had a problem with museums, I never waited much for any of them. Even in Rome, the line for entering in St. Peter’s cathedral was 2-3 hours long. I went to the Vatican first since I had pre-bought ticket, and when I came out (after a heavy shot of Rafael and Caravaggio), heavy rain had sent all those visitors away. I went in and left my heart in front of Michelangelo’s Pieta.
But I know the stress with the gigantic suitcases! You remind me of myself in Germany, lol. I was even younger then. But the thing with timelines is problematic. You ask, they tell you don’t worry, it’s only 10′ away. Then it turns out it’s 30′ running. They tell you it’s 30′, you have to count at least 45′. When I learned that lesson, I started taking a taxi.
Ten Bears,
Tyrion: What if they ruled together?
Varys: She doesn’t like to share power and she was sad at that party, clearly unstable. She’d bend him to her will like the Dark Lord Sauron.
Tyrion: Oh ok then, it was just a thought.
Steady on lads, let’s not dismiss the notion so quickly. Team Targ sucked, and that’s why the reveal fell flat for me. Thier reactions to it just feel right. Specifically Varys’ quick turn.
Ten Bears,
Don’t allow her to see GoT then! Not until she’s come of age.
That should have been,
Their reactions to it just *didn’t* feel right.
Jenny,
I know what you mean. Season 6 left off with Dany having a new priority when she gets to KL. Find a marriage alliance that will help strengthen her claim.
However, once they get to KL, suddenly Dany is not marriage material according to her own advisors, she will squash her husband like a bug whomever it is, forget about it, etc…
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
It meant nothing to Jon; it meant nothing to the Starks; it meant nothing to Westeros.
As per the show, it only meant something to Dany.
That was a monumental let-down.
That’s what we mean when we say that the reveal amounted to nothing. That’s our reading.
The show tried to convince us that everything is about Dany. I don’t think it is. The huge potential of this story was minimally explored only with regard to Dany and no one else.
Daenerys and her story sucked in the bigger part of the story like a black hole. From the moment she set foot in Westeros, Jon vanished; Tyrion vanished; Cersei vanished; Arya vanished; Sansa vanished; Bran vanished. They all existed to frame Daenerys and drive her to madness.
In your estimate Daenerys had built her entire self-perception on being the last Targaryen. Then why does this not come into consideration as she burns KL? What was she after by burning KL? How does Jon come into the equasion here, since he told her over and over that he “didn’t want it”, and since he did everything she wanted?
If you believe that this is the entire story, then good for you. But I see a huge lacuna here and I don’t think that what we saw on screen is even half of it.
You say that the title of the saga prejudices the ending, which is true of course (I am not contesting the ending btw, just to make this clear, I don’t have any illusions that Jon would ever run away with Daenerys). Two evils in the realm, Ice and Fire. But the song of Ice and Fire is Jon’s, and it’s already in the books (Aegon; his is the song of ice and fire).
With all due respect to all those who really loved season 8, there was no Jon in it, anywhere. If there was a song, it was Dany’s, with a sad ending.
The producers simply gave to the audience what they wanted: Dany and dragons. As I’ve said, before, it was their choice, their (TV) story and their right to do what they wanted with the story they had. It is liberating to know (they’ve said this themselves), but it won’t make any of us see the show differently (since we weren’t in for Dany and dragons in the first place).
(sigh)
Mr Derp,
Plenty of people liked it, and that’s fine. But Varys was an issue for me, he was just doing things to push the plot along. He was worried about her state of mind before Rhaegar died. Slightly premature. As I said many times, I have no issue with Dany being the ‘villian’, I predicted it years ago. Her final descent just didn’t work for me. I suppose that’s an example of the infamous ‘I liked the ending, just not how we got there’.
Jenny,
I pretty much feel the same way. I’ve made my peace with the ending, even if I didn’t really care much for it. I felt absolutely nothing when Jon killed Dany. I was an emotional mess when Jon held Ygritte in his dying arms though. Obviously Ygritte and Jon’s relationship resonated more with me than Jon and Dany’s. It is what it is.
Ten Bears:
For all the screentime and setup for the reveal of the secret of Jon’s parentage, it just amounted to one of many Dany bugging out factors.
Can we please agree it was the *primary* such factor, both in time-line and importance?
“Dany bugging out” was the third and final plot-twist which Martin told Benioff & Weiss when he couldn’t finish the books on time. He made sure they would include it.
Also, how much screen time was spent on R + L = J? Maybe half an hour out of a 73-hour story? That’s not a lot of time for one of the most important elements in the entire story.
Mr. Derp:
However, once they get to KL, suddenly Dany is not marriage material according to her own advisors, she will squash her husband like a bug whomever it is…
That conversation was clearly about the possibility of Dany marrying Jon, and no one else.
Also, by the time Dany arrives on Westeros, many potential suitors have been eliminated. Loras Tyrell would have been the most obvious candidate for a political marriage, but even Ramsay Bolton would have sufficed. Of the remainder, Robin Arryn would have been a good political match, along with the new Prince of Dorne. But by that time, Dany had become a megalomaniacal dictator who probably would not have bothered to marry at all.
Efi:
It meant nothing to Jon;
It meant he could no longer return her affections. That rejection helped push her toward tyranny.
… it meant nothing to the Starks …
Sansa immediately recognized she could use Jon’s better claim to keep Dany off the Iron Throne, and she moved swiftly to do exactly that. And while Arya didn’t care for her own sake, she knew Dany would have to get rid of Jon — and Arya was fiercely protective of her “brother”.
For both Stark daughters, R + L = J meant more to them than an oath sworn before family in Winterfell’s Godswood. That’s a lot closer to “everything” than to “nothing.”
Tyron “vanished” by being responsible for the death of Varys? Jon “vanished” by riding a dragon, dismounting the Night’s King, and chasing him through Winterfell? Arya “vanished” by killing the Night’s King?!?
What would these characters, in your estimation, have needed to do to make themselves felt more forcefully near the end of the story? I’m very serious in asking.
Finally, Dany’s vision of Rhaegar (?) telling Lyanna (?) about her child being “… the Prince Who Was Promised, … his is the Song of Ice and Fire,” was intentionally not included in the show. It would have been too obvious a “tell,” that Jon would eliminate the threats of Ice and Fire.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
“It meant he could no longer return her affections. That rejection helped push her toward tyranny.”
Exactly. Dany again. The significance of JON’s true identity is narrowed down to Dany again. You’ve said it.
“Sansa immediately recognized she could use Jon’s better claim to keep Dany off the Iron Throne, and she moved swiftly to do exactly that. And while Arya didn’t care for her own sake, she knew Dany would have to get rid of Jon — and Arya was fiercely protective of her “brother”. ”
Sigh, Dany again. Why would Sansa want to keep Dany away from the IT? What’s it to her? Would Sansa care about what a stranger does?
Arya protectice of Jon? When? She didn’t do anything to protect him. She didn’t kill Cersei; she didn’t kill Dany. She didn’t set him free from his jail. We didn’t even see them fight side by side. She defended his choice in front of Sansa, but “fiercely protective”? Hardly.
The oath was importat only for Sansa to break it. If Jon didn’t want the throne, why did she tell? Out of spite for Dany? Is that a satisfying explanation?
“Tyron “vanished” by being responsible for the death of Varys? Jon “vanished” by riding a dragon, dismounting the Night’s King, and chasing him through Winterfell? Arya “vanished” by killing the Night’s King?!?”
Tyrion vanished by being turned from an intelligent commander and plotter to gallactically stupid by not anticipating a) Euron’s attack on Yara b) Jamie’s maneuvering c) Euron’s counter attack at Casterly Rock d) Cersei’s backing up from the truce e) Euron’s ambush at DS, and top of the top, f) Daenerys’ burning of KL. Tyrion was reduced to “the good guy” who loved his sister and his queen at the same time and was turned to the showrunners’ spokesman each time they wanted to turn the audience’s attention away from Dany’s threats to burn KL, or wanted to explain what they did, as in 8.6 in that stupid speech. Never mind how inconsistent his own story was in season 8, he’s still the producers’ favorite boy.
Jon: a great character development, as his two lines betray, “I don’t want it”, “you’re my queen”.
Arya. Killed the NK, hurra! What else? Became an explorer in the very last scene?
Dany’s vision is of Rhaegar to Elia. Martin’s intent was to show how subjective his characters are in what they believe (Watsonian and Doylist), and to mislead the readers for not revealing Jon’s parentage too soon (Doylist), because Rhaegar was mistaken in that one. His first born son was killed anyway. I doubt that the vision wasn’t included for not telling. It could be that, but consider how restricting it would have been if they meant to make a story about Dany and dragons.
“I’m very serious in asking.”
Sorry, I won’t say. I’ve already written too much on this site about it and I don’t want to go through that again. There’s much that could have been done to make the exact same story more fulfilling for much of the audience. A line here, a scene there. They wouldn’t have to change the ending or anything like that; keep it the same, but just round it up for all the characters.
I think (of course I might be mistaken) that D&D hadn’t really realized where the story was going before Martin told them. Therefore the “three shocking moments” were really shocking for them, especially the third one. This is betrayed more or less by how they changed the characters book to show. It’s not only adaptation for TV, it’s qualitative changes, like, for example, Jon being ambitious in the books, or Tyrion being ambitious too (which was shown at first but then it was dropped), or Arya struggling to be somebody and then only being granted a chance to be “no one” or Jamie feeling bound by his oaths to Catelyn and Rhaegar (which perhaps would have given him something to do in s8 apart from deflowering Brienne). As for Daenerys, by leaving out of the show about 80% of what she was dealing with in Meereen only made her look better and concealed her turn.
In sum, my impression is that they toned down the “villains”, Daenerys, Cersei, Jamie, Tyrion, because they centered the story on them, and completely disregarded the Starks, especially after season 6. But the problem with this is that the story started with the Starks, so the build up to the end for them came out of the blue just like it did for Daenerys (at least for her fans). The story of season 8 in particular falls short on many, many levels.
And, you’ve written this to TB:
“That’s not a lot of time for one of the most important elements in the entire story.”
The entire book (five volumes of it, four more to come in two books) is built around Jon’s parentage. There’s a zillion characters involved in it, and when the reveal will happen it will have tsounami effect all over Westeros.
So where is it in season 8?
Efi
”Arya protectice of Jon? When? She didn’t do anything to protect him. She didn’t kill Cersei; she didn’t kill Dany. She didn’t set him free from his jail. We didn’t even see them fight side by side. ”
F*ck. That’s right. After the pre-S8 teaser of Jon and Arya drawing their swords together in the crypts, I was hyped for seeing them fight together. Nope. 😡
Efi,
Yes, buying tickets in advance helps! Thanks for the tips too!
Other than buying train tickets, Jo and I didn’t really plan our activities ahead because we didn’t have a set schedule (we went into this with the intention that we would see what we’d see so we didn’t feel rushed and could enjoy Paris without feeling extra stressed). I was curious about the Louvre but I cautioned against going unless I had at least week to spend there. My less noble reason for avoiding the Louvre was because, with having spent so many years studying art and being in the midst of my studies, I was kind of burned out by art at the time T___T So I definitely wasted an opportunity there :/
Oh yeah, time estimates can be totally problematic! I think the real problem here was Jo and I thought we were going to the nearby train station but that was the wrong train station we were supposed to go to. The actual train station we were meant to go to was much farther away and we didn’t plan for getting there XD;;;
Don’t have really time to react to all comments, so I just read the last couple and react.
Efi,
Agree about that his reveal is coming down to Dany, not Jon.
About why would Sansa care if Dany sits on the IT? Isn’t it because she wants freedom for her people and Dany won’t grand that?
About why did Sansa tell: I never had a sense that she told because of Jon wanting the Iron Throne. I think Sansa told because she feared Dany to harm Jon, by telling she wanted to make sure Jon was surrounded by people who would help him. (like Tyrion).
Efi,
I agree with many here about the problems in season 8. And I agree with you that R+L=J wasn’t adequately explored beyond it affecting Dany’s claim to the throne, what she had been working toward since late season 1. But we didn’t explore how the characters themselves personally felt about R+L=J — Jon, Sansa, Arya, or even how Dany felt about that beyond what it means for her claim. In the books, she laments being the last Targaryen and here is the son of the brother she heard so much about. I wish we explored some of that.
Well, the show explained why Jon told Sansa and Arya. He felt he owed them the truth too and trusted them to keep this secret. He swore Sansa and Arya to secrecy and thought he/Dany/Sansa/Arya could all live together without having lies between them.
I recall the show explained why Sansa broke her oath and it seems to be because she didn’t want Dany on the throne.
I think Tyrion was changed BIG TIME from the books but to be fair to the show, Jon (prior to season 5) had similar desires for leadership. We don’t know how Jon’s going to view leadership beyond book 5 in the books after a miserable experience of being Lord Commander, mutinied against, and murdered by his own men since those books haven’t come out yet.
I think we did see Arya struggle with her identity in the show — between herself and becoming No One.
I think R+L=J will have (and should have) significant emotional impacts for the characters but I don’t know how much it’ll affect Westeros as far as the political landscape goes. People would need to be convinced of its veracity and that’d be a hard-sell (but I know I’ve said this many many times on this board).
What did you have to pack? XD I had to pack at least three coats, my hair dryer, back-up hair dryer, curling iron, brushes, back-up brush, double the amount of clothes I actually needed, my external drives, five pairs of shoes, my skin care, hygiene products, cosmetics, associated tools, cables….
Since then, I’ve gotten better about going on 4-day trips — I only pack one SMALL suitcase now 🙂 The goal is to get to carry-on size!
But I’m always afraid I’m going to get stranded… and getting stranded without my stuff… I can’t even contemplate the mental breakdown I would experience 😉
Not every book, poem, story, movie, TV series, painting, drawing, etc produced is art. The majority of it is ‘sentimental value only” as in “your mother will love it”. Much of it is trash to all others. Or just a business offering to entertain and make a profit.
The term “art” does have a bar of some sort. But I suppose that we can argue if a particular work is “art”.
I note the assertions that GOT8 was art. Natalie may elect to think so and thus flatter her own work.
What if it was just a TV series like thousands of others? You know, just a TV show, similar to the one about the Kardassian clan. I suppose this clan and their fans speak in hushed tones about their “art” as well.
Not every work deserves a discussion as art. Maybe we should assess many of these programs as simply commercial entertainment.
Efi,
“I don’t think Dan and Dave’s ending is gonna be that different from my ending…”
-GRRM, 2019
Bold of you to assume that the revelation of Jon’s parentage is going to amount to much more than yet another hat in the ring of birthright claims to the Iron Throne (albeit one that profoundly shakes Dany, who’s been working towards that goal all her life, again based solely on her birthright).
And that we’re ever going to see those events unfold in ADoS.
Efi,
I’m noticing a pattern in all of your comments and complaints: it seems like you just really really REALLY don’t like Dany.
So, so true! I think people love the excess and drama and costuming (fair enough) and completely toodle along without having the foggiest idea of what the intended message is. I remember reading it (yawn) in high school, and then watching the movie in class (back then the “newest” one was still Redford et al, as it was the late 90s), and thinking what a bunch of pills they were.
That, and every time I saw Sam Waterston, hearing the Law & Order *Chung CHUNG* go off in my head.
I humbly request a photoshoot re-enactment of the romantically dramatic scene quoted above, perhaps done in a 1930s fashion? 😉
LOL!
You know… J is coming to Calgary at the end of this month and I did get a new mascara that has ended up being very smudgy as soon as I even think about moistening my eyeballs…. maybe those are some stars aligning there ;D
Ooh! I have one like that, one of those fibre ones that immediately jumped into my eyeballs and made me wish I’d never been born. No wonder it was a freebie. 🤪 BUT I do have quite a collection of antique cosmetics from the 1920s to the 60s, should you need a boatload of them for props…just sayin. 😉
I actually forgot that I bought the Game of Thrones palette despite my better judgement, but as it turns out it’s quite nice. 😬😆
kevin1989,
“About why would Sansa care if Dany sits on the IT? Isn’t it because she wants freedom for her people and Dany won’t grand that?
About why did Sansa tell: I never had a sense that she told because of Jon wanting the Iron Throne. I think Sansa told because she feared Dany to harm Jon, by telling she wanted to make sure Jon was surrounded by people who would help him. (like Tyrion).”
That’s my take too, but it wasn’t explicit in the show. They made it look as if the other kids wouldn’t play with poor Daenerys; they made it look as if Sansa was wicked or jealous of her. It is nowhere said that Sansa was worried that Daenerys would kill Jon. But Daenerys never threatened Jon, so if Sansa was worried, where did her fear come from? They also implied that Jon was “better” (Sansa to Tyrion: “what if there’s someone better?”) But Jon never claimed the throne.
In sum, it was a blurred as it gets.
Adrianacandle,
I think that in the books at least everybody’s going to learn that there is a child of Rhaegar that’s still alive. That’s the point of the whole book, no matter where it goes from there regarding claims and stuff. This has to be done simply for connecting with the initial story, meaning Ned and his “honor” which was famous all over the country. Right now in the book many know of Ned’s bastard son who is LC in the Night’s Watch and has allowed the Wildlings to come south of the Wall. Cersei has tried to have him murdered, but Cersei was also smitten with Rhaegar. It shall be interesting to see how the PoVs will react to the news.
As for Arya, she’s a girl who likes to mingle with the smallfolk. She misses her family horribly, so going back to them will be a source of happiness for her, for once. She won’t be as emotionless as she was in the show, and she won’t leave the next day after all this is over (she’s also far too young in the books to leave just like that). Bran is a boy who is loved by everybody. He’s described as the joy of the Starks. Even if he becomes the 3ER he won’t be like a robot, he’ll care for his family.
Farimer123,
KL is going to be destroyed. That’s certain.
I already said that this is the ending. I have reservations about the endings of the characters though (all of them apart from Daenerys), but the basic principles shall be in the book too. By those I mean the North independent, the South in ruins and Daenerys dead. That’s it; that’s the ending. Everything else is open in my estimate because as I’ve said they took into account much of their own preferences (e.g. Tyrion) and the audience’s preferences (e.g. Daenerys and dragons).
Efi,
“…Sansa was worried, where did her fear come from? They also implied that Jon was “better” (Sansa to Tyrion: “what if there’s someone better?”) But Jon never claimed the throne.
In sum, it was a blurred as it gets.”
Abrupt cutaways will do that.
Efi,
This is a bit off topic, but when I had a broken arm mending a couple of years ago (i.e. had time on my hands) I made a thread on the forums (fora?) about 1960s/1970s stars (and some 1950s ones) who I thought might have suited some of the roles in ASOIAF. Romy Schneider was one of my choices for Caitlyn (thinking of book Caitlyn – I was going on looks and not ability to do an English accent). My other thoughts for Caitlyn were Ann-Margret Olsson, Senta Berger and Samantha Eggar – SE was the only one of part-British extraction though.
Farimer123,
“it seems like you just really really REALLY don’t like Dany.”
I don’t like what they did to Dany in the show, that’s true. They made her a hero, when she’s not, at least not that clear-cut one. Everything she’s done in the books is ambiguous at best, but they removed this ambiguity in the show, and the result was that the audience invested too much in her story, expecting that she’d fix everything and even if she didn’t she’d get the fairytale ending she deserved.
You may say that everything was there and if people didn’t see it, well, that says sth about their intelligence. But that is a simplistic explanation. So what, do the people in the US, Europe and all over the planet not recognize Nazi imagery that has permeated many of her scenes?
In reality the audience only saw a hero fighting bad guys, liberating people from their bondage. If one doesn’t see the effect of her actions (close to what it is in the books), then she just comes accross as a misunderstood hero, and no one will ever understand why are the other characters of the story not giving her what she wants. While there are some good dialogs revealing exactly her character and motivations, they are bare of impact and stripped of context in the show. She is painted as a hero fighting against all odds, like a good person with good intentions, when she’s neither. In her own terms and in her own story, Daenerys is a grey character.
So portraying her story as they did was a narrative choice and an adaptation choice that may be due to time, budget limitations and marketing (investing too much on a lady with dragons). But at the same time it was a narrative trap because once you get to the point where you have to justify narratively the behavior of the other characters towards her and her own turn, it just falls flat.
If she is the hero, she has liberated the slaves, she has fought for the North, Cersei’s the “bad guy” of the story, why is it that no one wants her to rule? And why is it that she turned against those people she intended to protect? Why is it that she turns against the family of the man she loves? And where does that “instability” come from? She has endured so much, she emerged victorious and unscathed from all her confrontations with her enemies, why can’t she just settle this one peacefully?
In general yeah, I think that people are right to complain that her turn came out of nowhere. It doesn’t matter whether I like Daenerys or not (she’s not my favorite character that’s for sure and my favorite chapters of hers are only the last two of ADWD where she’s really grey), it doesn’t matter whether I saw it coming, I tend to overthink the simplest things anyway and not everybody’s like me, the point is, a few amendations here and there would have made this story infinitely better, much more fulfilling and satisfying whether one is a Danystan or Jonstan or whatever.
[I’m a Jonstan myself, but if he becomes that grey and as much of a beastly black bastard as Martin foreshadows him to become, I won’t like him the same; he’ll deserve exile and so much more].
Efi,
That’s true, I think they tried (but in my book failed) to establish that in the show. But probably it was because she saw the mad king in Dany? Especially when in season 7 the northern lords keep talking about not trusting the daughter of the mad king?
Pigeon,
Oooh, I might take you up on that!! ;D Your collection sounds amazing o_o
Have you ever heard of Safiya Nygaard? She did some pretty amazing (and informative!!) decade fashion/make-up videos (from the 60s to the 00s) !
Fibre mascara! Are you talking about those mascaras where it’s supposed to make you look like you have lash extensions without having lash extensions?? I, too, have tried those — with the same results as you XD And my lashes looked like the legs of a tarantula.
So a $60 tube of that vs. $70 lash perm that lasts for two months….? 🙂
And I wonder why I’m broke XD
That’s good to hear about the GoT Urban Decay palette! I remember not being that impressed with the shades but they wear nicely?? 😀
Efi,
I’m a bit medicated right now so if I’ve written something that doesn’t seem to compute in Human Language, let me know ;D
I’ve always thought it’d be really cool for people all over to know that this bastard son — whose been stigmatized against and pushed aside by their society — was actually born into royalty. But I don’t know if that’ll happen. And I don’t know if Jon’s parentage is the point of the whole story. It’s an important part of the story! But I don’t think it’s the whole point.
I do think it’ll have significant impacts for specific characters though and the impact on those characters may make some of those connections you’ve talked about when they realized Ned didn’t dishonor his wife by sleeping with another woman and bringing home her child — but instead, he lied to his king for 18+ years to save the life of his Targaryen nephew (but I think it would be really cool if Cersei knew. In the show, I wish at least a rumor of Jon being Rhaegar’s son had reached her — just to see her reaction :/).
But I don’t know of all of Westeros needs to know this in order to bring the story of Ned and his honor full circle. In Westeros, like in life, the real truth of things isn’t always known — especially in a visual society where paternity can be determined by the father’s hair colour (“black of hair”, “black of hair”, “golden head”). And I wonder if that’s something GRRM is trying to explore in relation to the hidden prince trope in literature/media.
I know, I know I’ve said this before and I understand if you’re sick of this argument so I’m sorry for restating it :/ I still can’t figure out how people would be convinced that this Stark-looking illegitimate son of Ned Stark, a man known for his honor in-universe, is the trueborn son of the now-deceased Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Even if it’s said (and believed) that Rhaegar had another child, it’s hard for me to see how people would believe Jon is that child — especially in such a visually-dependent society lacking DNA technology and a society with such a heavy stigma against bastards, believing that all bastards are liars who seek to usurp their trueborn family members.
At the very least, I don’t think Arya will have that contrived conflict she had with Sansa in season 7 🙂
But I think it’s hard to know where the books will take these characters and stories. Other than what D&D and others (directors, cast) have already said that’s come from GRRM (ie. Shireen, Hodor, Bran being king — the only aspect they’ve confirmed that has come from GRRM’s ending) and though I believe the broad strokes will be approximately the same based on what’s been stated interviews, I think it’s very hard to know how this all will manifest in GRRM’s books. How GRRM’ll get there, what GRRM’s plans are, how GRRM will deal with these story elements, prophecies, lore, all the secondary characters, book-only characters, etc. There’s so much possibility left, even if the bare bones of the stories with the major characters align between the book and show.
I think that’s something we still have after the show has ended, we still have room to speculate all these intricate theories that readers have come up with over the many many years we’ve had with these texts. The Pink Letter, what the maesters might be up to, what if the weirwood trees are evil, what’s Patchface’s deal, etc.
I agree with Kevin’s point of Sansa wanting independence for the North. I too had the impression that because Dany didn’t look ready to grant it, Sansa didn’t want Dany on the Iron Throne. However, Sansa does trust know and trust Jon and knows Jon likely would give the North its independence if he were on the throne.
Still, in the books, too, there are also people are who are very invested in Dany’s story and feel Dany is more gentle in the books. I think the show did switch out some actions and compensated with others (in the books, Dany “sharply questions” the daughters of the winesellers, which is not in the show but in the show, Dany feeds that noble to her dragons to send a message after Barristan’s death, which is not in the books) but I don’t think the show removed the ambiguity from all of Dany’s actions. Personally, I myself don’t think they were enough to connect with what happened in 8×05 but at the same time, I realize others in this same fandom saw those actions coming and think there was sufficient build-up so YMMV 🙂
Over the years in the GoT show fandom, even before season 8, I’m aware that Dany’s actions have been the focus of much (sometimes heated) discussion and even analysis. She is given some clear-cut heroics — but not all the time (ie. the Tarlys was a subject of debate since those scenes aired in 2017). Even in the books, not all of Dany’s actions are terribly ambiguous. Some are very much so, yes, but some of her actions have been pretty good for truly good intentions — like some of her efforts for a peace in Meereen and maintaining it in ADWD.
But I think ASOIAF demonstrates that, no matter what choice you make or the intention you have, there’s always a consequence to every decision. There’s no real win-win.
Adrianacandle,
In the books, Jamie thinks about Rhaegar “he was right; there were changes made after the Trident”. But Rhaegar wanted to call a grand council, he didn’t just want to bring changes. This didn’t happen, but I suppose it will. The show tried to show it to us, but the DP scene was one of the worst in the entire show (unlike, i.e., the DP scene in season 7). If this council happens in the books -Bran will have to be elected somehow- I think that everything will be discussed, including Jon’s parentage, notwithstanding of whether Jon will be up for the throne or not. It will be discussed, or at least it will become known, because the real story started with Rhaegar, when heinous crimes were committed for whatever reasons (such as murdering his infants). Since it is the surviving infants that will conclude the story (Jon and Daenerys) the issues resulting from Rhaegar’s actions will have to be brought to conclusion somehow. Imo Westeros doesn’t have to believe that Jon is a true son or not; they just have to know for the story to be completed.
As for Daenerys, in the books she’s just a girl, as she often says herself. She does good things, or tries to, but she creates chaos all around her, and that’s what didn’t come through in the show. She means good, but she doesn’t really know how to get there because the world is complicated and people are complicated. But I think that where she is now in the books, she’s in a good place for her character. She’s a conqueror and I’ll be waiting to see what she does next.
Adrianacandle,
” On our last day, J confused what train station we were supposed to go to and we thought it was only a 10 min walk. It turned out to be a 30 min RUN and of course, I packed my entire house in a 23kg suitcase to bring with me everywhere I go. While we were running for the train, the handle of my suitcase broke, I collapsed on the street in sobs, despairing, “We’ll never make it!” because we could never afford another train ticket — while J yanked a dangling strap on my 23kg suitcase, pulled it up, and said, “YES WE WILL,” and started running with my overpacked suitcase dragging behind her while I ran after her… crying… throughout the streets of Paris…”
———-
Pigeon,
”I humbly request a photoshoot re-enactment of the romantically dramatic scene quoted above, perhaps done in a 1930s fashion?” 😉
——-
OMG, I was going to ask for almost the same thing. It reminded me of what could have been an alternative closing scene of “Before Sunrise” or “Before Sunset.”
Vivid, beautiful storytelling, Adrianacandle. 😌
Adrianacandle,
” I’ve always thought it’d be really cool for people all over to know that this bastard son — whose been stigmatized against and pushed aside by their society — was actually born into royalty. But I don’t know if that’ll happen. And I don’t know if Jon’s parentage is the point of the whole story. It’s an important part of the story! But I don’t think it’s the whole point.”
On the show at least, I had also been looking forward to the impact of the revelation on Jon’s self-image. (“I’m just a bastard”).
Adrianacandle,
”….but I think it would be really cool if Cersei knew. In the show, I wish at least a rumor of Jon being Rhaegar’s son had reached her — just to see her reaction :/“
——
Cersei’s reaction [right before getting choked] was also one of the factors for making Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryen the frontrunner (surprise 2:1 favorite) in my Tinfoil Valonqar Sweepstakes.
Adrianacandle,
”At the very least, I don’t think Arya will have that contrived conflict she had with Sansa in season7.” 🙂
Thank the new gods and the old gods beyond counting.
Ten Bears,
It’s Jaime I’m interested in, he feels guilty about failing to protect Rhaegar’s children and ta dah! Here is the son of Rhaegar, an opportunity for a do over? I imagine that will come into play when they fight the others up North.
Efi,
“but the DP scene was one of the worst in the entire show (unlike, i.e., the DP scene in season 7). If this council happens in the books -Bran will have to be elected somehow- I think that everything will be discussed, including Jon’s parentage, notwithstanding of whether Jon will be up for the throne or not. It will be discussed, or at least it will become known, because the real story started with Rhaegar, when heinous crimes were committed for whatever reasons (such as murdering his infants). Since it is the surviving infants that will conclude the story (Jon and Daenerys) the issues resulting from Rhaegar’s actions will have to be brought to conclusion somehow. Imo Westeros doesn’t have to believe that Jon is a true son or not; they just have to know for the story to be completed.“
—-
Right. I would also think the story [originating from Rhaegar’s actions] should be completed for the readers/audience.
Yeah, I thought Jaime learning of Jon’s true identity would have also provided a nice bookend to the [show only?] S1e2 scene in which he mocked Jon (for his naivete in joining the NW, etc).
Efi,
Yeah, I certainly think this information has a chance of circulating and it may be discussed in a setting like this — at least, I’d like to see that (I agree that the Dragonpit council in the show wasn’t very well done and had some holes) but I don’t know if the truth being out there and known by all of Westeros is necessarily what’s specifically needed to bring the story to a close. I think it has a part, definitely, and it may manifest this way! Or it might manifest in another way. Or might be discussed among a specific group of people — perhaps including Jaime — instead of all of Westeros knowing. Jaime’s reaction would also be really cool to see. I don’t know how much he’ll believe it but I’d love to see that reaction.
In any case, I feel it’s hard to know. But I do agree Rhaegar’s actions will likely be explored in some way though since those did have a big impact on Westeros.
In terms of the books, I agree with a lot of this but I also think this is quite true for quite of a few of the characters (and to a limited extent, on the show but I don’t think this was nearly as explored as it was in the books) — they’re trying to do the right thing and unwittingly create a whole lot of trouble instead, find that choices always come with consequences, and that when meaning to do right, it can turn out to be not quite the right thing. It is a messy, complicated world in which an action, even a moral action, can cause heaps of trouble.
Ten Bears,
Thank you! XD It was a very dramatic day! I was so drenched in sweat, it felt like I bathed in my clothes. That was a look. No mascara in the world stood a chance.
I was looking forward to that too :/
And I enjoy your tinfoil theory XD At the very least, I really wanted to see Cersei react to this news and I think you and Jenny raise good points about how interesting it would be to see Jaime react. And I agree with Efi about how interesting it would be to see other POV characters react to this news.
Mango,
Not every work deserves a discussion as art. Maybe we should assess many of these programs as simply commercial entertainment.
Good luck making that distinction in the moment! Shakespeare wrote his plays for money, full stop. When he wanted to express himself as an artist, he wrote sonnets. If he’d known he’d be remembered more for his vulgar commercial products, e.g. “MacBeth” and “Hamlet,” rather than for his sonnets, he would not have been happy.
(No, I’m not implying GRRM is a modern Bard of Avon. I’m just re-stating what Tyrion said to Jon, about needing time to pass before we know if our judgements are valid.)
Adrianacandle,
Since I started working, I became very strict about what I can and cannot pack, because my work involves lots of travelling (often on a weakly basis), which means that I also trained myself to be at the airport exactly 5′ before the gates close, just to be able to benefit from a little more sleep when the flight is an early one. Of course it goes without saying that makeup stuff is always included in my suitcases (Dior mascara since forever, it’s a guarantee), and when I have to stay for a few days, a hairdryer because my hair is quite thick and difficult and I cannot count on hotels or friends to have my 2300 Babyliss.
But I didn’t have all that experience when I was 20, and I was going to stay in Germany for a full 10 months with a student exchange program. So I packed up everything I could, put it in two huge suitcases and off I went.
Martyrdom started in the plane. For some reason the flight attendants wouldn’t give me water to drink, and I am a sucker for water. I drink far too much (nice skin, though). I arrived at Stuttgart horribly thirsty, and there was nowhere to ask for a glass of water, or buy a bottle or sth else (water hose would do, but noooo! the Germans are too neat for that). Apparently one had to go somewhere else (up or down, I still don’t know) to the caffees for that. As I was looking all around, trying to figure out where to go, because I had to catch up the bus (there was one going straight to Tuebingen for the students), I tried to get there but I was lost inside the airport, an Englishman working for the aircompany I had travelled with offered to help me, dragging those suitcases. So he took me to the bus stop outside the airport, only to discover that the bus had just left, and the next one was in one or two hours.
And off we went to the metro, because the next alternative was the train. He guided me through all that, bless him wherever he is. I got off at Stuttgart central station, and the Hauptbahnhof was above it. By now I thought that if I didn’t have water, I’d faint, but, voila, there’s a food stand on the platform. While I was trying to remeber my best German to ask for water, the guy who was behind it turns to me and says in my language, “what would you have”? and I say “oh, some water please!” And he says, “I won’t give you, if you buy it here you’ll pay gold for it, go upstairs”.
How difficult can that be, right? Eh, I had to time to go searching, and the train would depart in a few minutes, so I went to the Bahnhof, anxious about what the right platform would be, because if I missed the train I wouldn’t get to the dorm on time, which means, I’d have nowhere to sleep on my first night in Germany. I still arrived late; the German lady who was in charge of the dorm had closed at 14.00 and I arrived a quarter past. I returned to the Tuebingen Bahnhof, still dragging those suitcases, still without water. There was a service of the Catholic Church there with the sole purpose to help students (lots of them for former German colonies). After trying the hostel (no bed) I ended up at a hotel in the old city. By that time I was almost crying, fainting, dying, out of desperation, THIRST, and, by now, hunger.
Hotels in places like that come with options, like appartments in Paris: with waterbasin, but no toilet, or toilet no waterbasin, if you want both, you have to pay more. I took the cheapest, waterbasin (ample supply of water). When I settled I went for a walk around; it was by then 18.00, it was dark, but it was a nice walk in an old medieval city with an interesting gothic church. I swear the bed was the softer bed I ever slept in.
I swear, now I’m laughing, I was crying my guts out that night. It was very intense, and I don’t even remember if I called home. I probably found a phone somewhere (no self-phones back then).
When I was in the metro in Stuttgart, with those suitcases, I was looking anxiously up at the metrolines for not losing my station. Of course the Germans around wondered, who is she, where is she from, why is she in such a state, and when I happened to glance on two of them, a nice, elderly couple, they said to me “shoene koffer”!
My “dankeschoen” probably sounded very miserable.
Efi,
Exactly. Dany again. The significance of JON’s true identity is narrowed down to Dany again. You’ve said it.
Well, to be fair, it is about her family too. 😉
You’re not alone here in assuming this news was supposed to have an effect upon Jon and the other Starks — and that we should have seen these effects. My question is: why? Jon had become Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch and then King in the North, a pair of titles very significant to the Starks, but which no single Stark had ever held; he had long since transcended his bastard status. Sansa used his actual parentage to her advantage, and Arya simply didn’t care, since family is family and Jon is family, no matter how exactly related. (She erroneously called Jon “my brother” in the final Dragonpit council, intentionally using the wrong word to make this point.) Their personal reactions to what would have been a doubly-redundant third reveal of R+L=J did not matter at all to the outcome of the story.
Why would Sansa want to keep Dany away from the IT? What’s it to her? Would Sansa care about what a stranger does?
Sansa spent her entire adult life getting schooled by murderously sociopathic rulers, or would-be rulers: Cersei, Ramsay, and Baelish. She quickly recognized in Dany those same traits, and simply figured (with justification) that Jon’s love for Dany was blinding him. Jon, as King in the North, had legally handed over the North’s independence to Dany, and anyway Dany had at least one dragon and the North did not. Both legally and factually, Dany could impose her will upon Sansa and the North from her seat on the Iron Throne. Therefore, Sansa did what she could to prevent Dany from taking that seat.
Arya protectice of Jon? When? She didn’t do anything to protect him.
When he could protect himself, she trusted him to do that. When he was in jail, and killing him would have solved everyone’s problems, she promptly took that option off the table, by threatening Yara Greyjoy — not a person to threaten lightly.
(How, exactly, was Arya supposed to free Jon from a prison guarded by phalanxes of The Unsullied? Even if she killed one and took his face, there’s far more to disguise than merely looking like a person. The Unsullied were the ultimate in disciplined fighters, and any deviation she made from their behavior would have been detected immediately.)
The oath was importat only for Sansa to break it.
He had them swear (a) in the Godswood, (b) at Winterfell, (c) in front of the Heart Tree where (d) Lord Eddard Stark liked to take refuge. There is no more sacred or holy place for them to take an oath. Sansa’s decision was huge, and required an appropriately huge violation of expectations to accomplish.
If Jon didn’t want the throne, why did she tell?
In a feudal system it does not matter in the slightest whether the rightful heir wants the throne or not. The heir has a moral obligation to perform in the job, and any failure to do this will cause trouble. For an example, we need go back not even a century, to the crisis caused by the abdication of Edward VIII in England. Even though the English monarch had long been a constitutional figurehead, not an active ruler, Edward’s refusal to do his job caused a huge amount of trouble. In a system where the monarch has not merely actual power but absolute power, the opportunities for mischief are infinite. Even if Jon “didn’t want it,” any opposition to Dany would have used his claim as an excuse — and given she’d just slaughtered the entire population of the largest city in Westeros, we can assume her opposition was very large, yet rapidly growing.
Tyrion vanished by being turned from an intelligent commander and plotter to gallactically stupid by…
… getting promoted beyond his level of competence, by a ruler who was herself not competent for the task assumed.
Tyron was a competent civil administrator. We saw this in his leadership during Stannis’ attack on King’s Landing (and in preparation thereof), at the end of the story, and even in Meereen, where he could at least stall for time until Dany returned. By accepting a post of Invasion Chief, he set himself up for failure.
More importantly, in a story all about families — and the Lannisters were one of the main families in the tale — Tyrion had unwillingly absorbed the propaganda Tywin had relentlessly pounded into his head since birth: he was a Lannister, the Lannisters were the most important people in the history of ever, and he needed to serve and to protect the Lannisters above all else. Season 7 could have started with Dany blowing the Red Keep straight to the Seven Hells along with Cercei inside it, then settled down to marshall forces against the Army of the Dead, and the story would have ended shortly thereafter. Instead, Tyrion makes a series of ludicrously bad decisions by trying to save Cersei, ending with the beyond-pathetic “idea” of having her travel to exile across the Narrow Sea in a rowboat with a one-handed man. (This is why we don’t tolerate feudalism anymore…)
Jon: a great character development, as his two lines betray, “I don’t want it”, “you’re my queen”.
He had one final conflict of love vs. duty, and he made his choice. Prior to that, he’d done everything he’d ever set out to do, and was at a loss for what to do next. He eventually disappears into happy exile Beyond the Wall — the only place he was ever truly happy.
Arya. Killed the NK, hurra! What else? Became an explorer in the very last scene?
The girl who did not want to be a lady in a castle became the greatest Stark ever in Winterfell, then completed her arc by learning to give up on revenge. Like Jon, she also had nothing remaining to do but leave.
I doubt that the vision wasn’t included for not telling.
The scene which gives the title to the entire book series was intentionally omitted from the television adaptation for, um, other reasons? You’re serious? I guess so:
It could be that, but consider how restricting it would have been if they meant to make a story about Dany and dragons.
Hey, ya promise ’em tits & dragons, ya gotta deliver ’em some tits & dragons. 😉
They omitted the most significant scene with Dany to make the story more about Dany?!? Whatever, dude.
Sorry, I won’t say. I’ve already written too much on this site about it and I don’t want to go through that again.
Sorry to have bothered Your Grace with my impertinent queries. I’ll report to the Black Cells in haste.
Efi,
I’m thirsty just reading this.
Mango,
There is no “objective art” I think. There is no rule on what is art and what isn’t, or is there? I’d say that it involves handicraft and lots of personal work, but even that is not true anymore. So what happens with computer experts for example who can do now everything with a computer and not with their hands? Once the cartoons were handmade, drawn on a piece of paper and colored by hand. Now there’s no such thing. Are the dragons of GoT not art? Are the computer wizzards not artists? I don’t know, but I tend to think that they are.
However, there is no discussion when it’s old and withstands time. With GoT one can’t say, because it’s still a babe out there. I remember seeing numerous documentaries on old movies and old series. Series can be contested for being “art”, perhaps because they’re ephemeral, designed to bring short time pleasure and entertainment. I still enjoy “I dream of Geannie” for example, but there’s still older series out there. I don’t think I’ve seen anywhere the discussion on how a TV series would bring a feeling on screen, which is flat and two-dimensional, while there is discussion about how early film producers did (or some claim they did) that. Last week there was such a documentary about early directors, of the 1910s and 1920s and I remember how the narrator said that a specific director who died very early in the 1920s managed to capture that feeling of completion -the movie was about some guy who abandoned everything and went to live with his sweetheart in the country, having withstood war and separation and survived to reunite with her.
I think GoT had its moments. Dragons suspending in the moonlight, for example, was poetry. I’d like to have that on my wall.
I would generally agree. I recall some expensive work or “art” was nothing more than a banana taped to a canvas. I guess technically that’s art to some people, but, not to me.
Mr Derp,
I went to the Pompidou Centre in my teens, and I genuinely didn’t know whether I could sit on a bench, I thought it might have been an exhibit lol. Funnily enough, there was a giant plastic banana hanging in a room, no idea what that was about.
Personally, I think everything that is created is art, the chair you are sitting on was designed by somebody, that is art in its own way. Some people say that the greatest art form is marketing, convincing people that something is ‘worthy’ is an art form in itself. I imagine some of these modern artists laughing their way to the bank because they have managed to dupe people into thinking they have created something meaningful.
Yes! The banana duct-taped to a wall at Art Basel in Miami Beach – priced at $120,000.
(Then I think someone came along and ate it. Did that qualify as “performance art”?)
Mr Derp,
Here’s an article about the duct-taped banana “artwork.”
https://www.gq.com/story/suddenly-the-koons-is-this-100k-banana
I don’t recall if this artwork incited a debate about whether duct-taping the banana was “rushed” or just “fast-paced.” 🙄
Efi,
Oh god, what a horrible, horrible experience you had — and at 20. 20-year old me would have been completely defeated, me and my two huge suitcases.
That is terrible about not being able to get water from the flight attendants — especially when the air in planes is so dry and it’s so important to keep hydrated throughout flights. And when you’re thirsty, nothing else matters — only getting water — and that thirst just gets worse and worse. What a terrible experience — and when you’re going away for 10 months 🙁
And OMG what a crappy series of events following!!
Isn’t that the best feeling? When Jo and I made it to the train, we had bought these sandwiches earlier and after all that running, crying, desperation, sweating, glowing red with exertion, those sandwiches were the best sandwiches in the world — at that point and since 🙂
All that crap just makes even just okay things seem so much better when they finally come 🙂 When you finally had water, even just from the tap, was it the best water in the world? 🙂
Did your student exchange go well?
Oh oh, I use Dior mascara too! Diorshow!! 🙂 Mine still smudges, even waterproof but I think it’s because of my sunscreen though and few mascaras have held up to it :/
Efi,
I liked Dream of Jeannie too! 🙂 When Sister #3 and I were kids, we would get up early to watch it at 6 AM on the DejaVu channel before school XD
I really like what you said about art being subjective. I think, more than anything, it’s about the concept of the piece and people can really disagree on what is/what isn’t art. That discussion has and will probably go on for eternity.
Mr Derp raises a good point about a banana being taped to a canvas and being declared art. I did… roll my eyes at a taped banana XD;; On the other hand, I know others would point to the concepts this taped banana was exploring/representing and that makes it art, which I think is fair. From the article Ten Bears posted:
Regardless of these concepts and what Emmanuel Perrotin wanted us to question, somebody ate the 120K banana. So one person’s exploration of meaning ascribed to material objects via a taped banana is another’s 120K snack? 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Commenter likening S8 to duct-taped banana in 5, 4, 3, …
Maybe… maybe 🍌can become its shorthand x_x
I LOVE Saf! She’s such a goofball, and her frankenlipstick making it to market was the best. I swear I almost died of a migraine just THINKING about her mixing all those scented candles together though….oh my god. 🤢
I am ridiculously nostalgic, and when I hold a dance compact from the 1920s in my hand – something that someone treasured, kept her powder and lipstick and ciggies and a nickel or whatnot in – I just want to be transported back in time as an observer and get to know that person. Sigh. I love the classic Besame makeup, although I’m not a big Disney fan (le gasp) and I like when they stick to classic style. The Agent Carter passport eyeshadow palette was brilliant though, and I’ll ALWAYS be grateful! 😉
Yes, THAT mascara. Honestly, what sadist designed that stuff??? I do like lash extensions, but I end up fiddling. And fiddling ends up with me having one perfect eye, and one naked eye. 😬 Diorshow and the newer Hourglass Caution mascara are fantastic, and in a pinch the Maybelline Full n Soft is nice too.
The GoT UD collection was underwhelming in execution (SER ILYN!!!…🤪), but the shadows are nice enough, and the lipstick cases are lovely. They had such a good opportunity to do an amazing collab, and they did not. But a few items were nice.
Thank you. Did you know that crushed ice from a drink can actually travel from mouth hole up and and out of nose hole at record speed? 😳 I didn’t until just now. It also may have just been fast paced, I suppose. 😂 On the bright side, my sinuses feel very fresh.
Ten Bears,
“It is both a funny critique of the absurdities of art and capitalism, yet it is inherently part of that problem, too.”
I’ve had a really, really good laugh. Thanks for that TB!
Lately (since my European escapades increased) I’ve turned into a f*cking communist (and I hate communism too).
Adrianacandle,
Ok, after eating the banana one can always stick some nicely packed cinnamon or another spice his/her choosing. Spices don’t rot.
Think about the meaning of it: how many wars actually did happen for spices like pepper?
I bet Cattelan didn’t think about that.
Adrianacandle,
Diorshow Overcurl because my lashes are as difficult as my hair, very long and very straight. I never managed to use a simpler mascara like L’Oreal or Maybelline… (sniff). No, it always has to be the expensive one.
Your sunscreen shouldn’t go into your eyes, but I know some women have this problem (mom does). In the past few years I’ve changed my daily care into products that are natural (up to 98%), and I find that they are much better absorbed by the skin and because of that they’re much more effective. I also discovered Inglot for makeup (I’ve always been a sucker for JLo makeup) and I mean to buy a mascara at some point (if they don’t stop being imported here, I am aware that there’s some problem or they’re changing their marketing and management policy in my country).
I don’t really remember what I did with water, but in Germany the issue with water was always a weird one. Back then they actually didn’t have good water and the Germans had to buy it at the supermarket, which of course I didn’t, because it’d be economic catastrophe. So I drank tap water. At some point a fellow student at the dorm told me that I must be very brave. And I said, how so? He explained that water in Germany is polluted and it has to be cleaned before being supplied into the water system. When the cleaning system was established in the vicinity of Tuebingen, the mayor (of Stuttgart, perhaps, I don’t recall) went there with other officials and took a glass of water out of the water tank and he drank it, just to prove to the Germans that the water was now clean. Lol, Juergen was a journalist, he’d know such things.
But, in anycase, nothing happened to me with drinking Germany’s tap water, I can attest to that, it’s safe!
But the smallest things are very important when you’re on an adventure, that’s true. A sandwich or a coffee. They have hazelnut coffee in Paris. But the thing I remember the most is from one of my vacation to a Mediterranean island (very little one, a rock basically). In order to get there we took two airplanes, starting a 5 a.m. We reached it at noon, and hastily got ready to go for a swim.
Adriana, what a sea! The island was so tiny, it basically had no beach, but there were sunbeds at the far edge of the wharf. The water was of deep blue color and yet so crystal clear you could see fish swimming ten meters below (very deep sea, kind of scary). We stayed there under the sun until sunset, and we did take sandwiches and beers. Oh, a bliss! I don’t remember ever being so relaxed after a 7h journey.
The feeling was like the song “and she never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave, never, never”.
🏊♀️ 🐬 🍻
Pigeon,
Efi,
I loved reading both of your posts! XD I’ll answer later today! (It also seems we all do Diorshow! ;D) I’m on some pretty heavy-duty medicine right now, heavier than yesterday (!), and it’s making me feel pretty floaty in the head! Going to wait until my head settles back down to earth before I answer but I really enjoyed reading your responses 🙂
Thank you for this 🙂
You are quite right! I would not make much headway on the art discussion. I am not well-read in the area although I am an avid consumer of varied creative outputs.
From your note, I see these points: (i) art and commercial entertainment products are not mutually exclusive; (ii) art does not depend on the intent of the producer; (iii) judgment of artistic value vary spatially (including culturally) and temporally (overtime, views change)
Efi, Pigeon, TB, Jenny, Derp, AdrianaC, Tensor:
Good points on art – made me think a bit.
Just a few random comments as I roll these over in my head:
(1) There is a field of philosophy called aesthetics. This long line of rigourous work that underpins much of the critical discussion of art. So no, it is not just what anyone thinks. There are serious arguments. This field may be criticized for cultural “breadth” but even that facet has improved over time.
(2) I have not read the major academic/philosophical stuff but from articles in the popular press, it may be easier to list characteristics of “art” than to define it.
(3) Today if I had say what I think of as art, I would say: Creative excellence including a display of rare skill/talent that makes me reflect on the human condition (including thinking on existential issues such as the meaning and purpose of life – what does it mean to be human, why are we here, how are we connected). It elicits emotional and intellectual responses (e.g., joy, pain, understanding, shifted perceptions) and changes/uplifts/evolves me in some way.
(4) Tomorrow, I may have a different answer.
Good thing to discuss though as we throw the word around.
We could add sugar to that list of war causing.
Adrianacandle,
Oh, Adriana I hope you get better soon. Rest and don’t do too much.
Mango,
Tentative #(5): Immersion: “Art” should draw you in. Even if it breaks your heart*, it should not leave you thinking “WTF?”, “well that fizzled out,” etc.
* Example: I hated, hated, hated the movie
; it was like a nightmare within a nightmare on steroids. I wish I had not seen it, yet I can’t deny it drew me in. One character, by dropping off his manuscript for the other character (his ex-fiance) to read years after she betrayed him, tried to make her feel the heartache she had caused him to suffer. By extension, the movie’s portrayal of the fictional events in the manuscript as she was reading it made the audience feel the heartache too.
Horrible, just horrible – in a Red Wedding kind of way. I’d warn anyone away from seeing it. It was quite an unpleasant experience, made worse from my perspective by
.
Yet it all made sense. The protagonist used his manuscript as a vendetta:
.
I still wish I’d never seen it. 🥵
Ten Bears,
PS GoT connection: Robert Aramayo (Young Ned) played one of the bad guys in the movie. I did not realize it until I checked the cast listing a few minutes ago.
Wars over spices?
The novel “Dune” by Frank Herbert came to mind.
(Not sure how the battles for control of the coveted spice were portrayed in David Lynch’s 1984 movie adaptation of “Dune.” BTW, I understand that a new movie version of “Dune” is due to come out later this year, with Jason Mamoa as “Duncan Idaho.”)
Ten Bears,
I agree, Valid (5.) It engages. A conversation, raises questions, thoughts, lingers.
Besides that: Hahhhhaa. I see what you did there on the “WFT” and “well that fizzled out” and “it made sense”.
I do not know that movie but will check it out. Hmmm, not sure I wish to suffer the entire viewing though!
Mango,
Like I said, I wouldn’t recommend that anyone check out that movie, because it’s really depressing. It got good reviews and awards – probably because of its acting, direction and internal logic. You may want to look up reviews first, though they may spoil the plot.
I guess I figure I can find ways to be miserable on my own, without spending time and money for a movie to make me feel that way. Plus, I’m a sucker for happy endings (which – in my view – are harder to formulate if done properly.) Even a movie with a genuinely “b****rsw**t” ending can be enjoyable if that ending is logical and earned* (and not just thrown in to be “edgy” or”dark.”)
I’d just as soon recommend “immersive” movies that aren’t so depressing.
* For example -and without spoiling it by naming it: One of my all-time favorite movies involves the recurring theme that a person “can’t escape [their] nature,” so it’s set up early and often that the two mismatched lovers can’t simply run off and live happily ever after. And despite their love, they both know it: one of them would have to give up his or her life’s purpose.
It was still a beautiful ending…
Efi,
Thanks, Efi! 🙂
Yes, I agree! The smallest things tend to be the best in adventures like these 🙂
That sounds so beautiful! And with sandwiches, few things beat sandwiches ;; Maybe cake but not much else! 😉
You’re right, sunscreen shouldn’t be going in my eyes and it hurts like a mofo when it does. When I blink, the tips of my lashes sometimes make contact with my skin, resulting in the smudging, and the sunscreen I use is quite heavy (La Roche Posay). It’s one of the few sunscreens that contains Mexoryl, an ingredient dermatologists say provides better protection against UVA (more stable than avobenzone) so it’s a bit of a trade-off for better skin protection. I tried the lighter stuff but it ended up pilling on my skin 🙁
Yes, sometimes product absorption can be a problem, especially when products start pilling and rubbing off in balls 🙁 I really like the retin-a/vitamin c/hyaluronic acid trio for skin! But sometimes, if I layer too much, product starts to pill :/ It’s a bit better after I do a home peel with glycolic acid but even then, that only lasts for a few days and you can’t use too much glycolic acid too often or your skin barrier becomes compromised, resulting in irritation and much, much redness (especially in combination with retin-a, which is already a chemical exfoliate on its own).
By the way, one of my friends lives in Stuttgart now!! 🙂 🙂 I went to high school with her and after she finished her engineering degree, she had an opportunity to work in Germany and she’s there today! When she comes back here to visit her family, we meet up and she always gets me these awesome German chocolate bars — like strawberry cheesecake chocolate 🙂
I’ve only ever been to Cologne in Germany (and the Frankfurt airport but I don’t think that really counts as visiting Germany) and I definitely drank the tap water XD I couldn’t always afford to buy water when I needed it, especially as I needed to keep change available for toilet money, so I resorted to tap water and I thought it was just fine!
Have you ever tried a lash perm? I don’t think my own lashes are very special but a lash perm does give them an extra oomph and I don’t have to curl them for *two months*!!
Pigeon,
Me too! I think she presents videos so well and she really does her research, I learn a ton from her! XD
Yes, agreed about the frankencandle video… what that must have smelled like…
Her giant frankencake video nearly killed me — I didn’t know there were so many flavours *__* And they all looked so good…. and so colourful….
And the giant lipstick video… *____*
I wonder those same things! And in museums — you see these things there under glass and it can be odd to realize that this was once just in somebody’s purse, being used and tossed about, and now it’s on display for people to look at.
I wondered what of mine might be possibly in a museum and I can’t really think of anything — but then I remembered Body Worlds. I want to be one of those!! 😉
😂
(I’m going to look up that palette right now. I love travel-themed stuff)
Good question — and the thing is, if people are looking at your face up close with the fibre lash mascara on, it looks kind of clumpy at close proximity. It can look awesome from far away but up close, on me, it looks like thick spider sausage legs (I once had a nightmare in which spiders were giant and people hunted and cooked them while spiders hunted and cooked us. And people, if they defeated the spider, made spider sausage out of their legs. I’ve had a bit of a hard time with sausage since).
I love Diorshow :)! And I will keep Hourglass Caution in mind! Sephora?
Yeah, I remember being underwhelmed by the look of the palette but I’m glad they products were nice enough and I’d love to have one of those lipstick cases. But yeah, there was so much potential to do an amazing collab and UD has done some great stuff, especially in terms of packaging :/ (Like the Alice palette!)
And now I’m having flashbacks of sitting in the tiny Museum of Antiquities on campus, working on Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Cycladic etc replicas for display amongst the collections and wondering what I would see if I was the original artist of the piece and looked up from my work.
Very likely someone throwing shit at me, as I wouldn’t be in a fancy studio. 😆
But dang, those are some of my favourite memories – spending hundreds of hours meticulously painting or carving poor but passable renditions of the originals, quietly surrounded by Louvre replicas and the Charioteer of Delphi (I loved pranking the curator by giving ol Charioteer a fishing rod in his outstretched empty hand), and an occasional prized original amphora jar from the bottom of the Aegean, donated by thoughtful academics with deeper pockets than I’ll ever have.
Suddenly I feel all at once happy and sad, like when I watch “Call Me By Your Name” for the 15th time. Dang sentimental me emerges in public rarely, but she always lurks in my heart. ❤
Uh anyway…BODY WORLD, omg! So, so, so fascinating. I could spend forever and a day at that exhibit. Holy smokes. That and Caitlin Doughty videos are my perhaps slightly morbid but positive fascinations. Much wow.
I really like spiders, but not the kind you dreamt about, ack. 😳 And now I’M going to be put off sausage (heh) for awhile. Even Hot Pie couldn’t persuade me for that kind of cuisine.
Now I’m thinking of the Ice Spiders that could have been.
Ten Bears,
I loved Nocturnal Animals despite the ending. You understand the feeling in the entire movie, even though I think the focus was the girl’s sentiment. One feels sad for her when she sits all alone in that restorant, while all along thinking “oh, it serves her right”. It’s all about missed opportunities, about things people do for the wrong reasons.
Efi,
I hated the movie from the moment those whackos drove off with the fictional counterpart’s fictional wife and daughter, and it only got worse from there. Obviously, the ex-husband’s dual intent was to show his ex he was a good writer after all by luring her into his page-turning manuscript, but then using that manuscript to make her feel how he felt when
, figuratively killing him and his potential future family. It’s just that the events of the parallel, fictional story
were so horrific…
If the movie was “all about missed opportunities, about things people do for the wrong reasons,” I wished it weren’t so gut-wrenching and sad.
Still, as you can tell, the movie has “stuck” with me. It succeeded in achieving the “immersion” factor – both as to its real world plot and the manuscript’s fictional story.
In retrospect, that movie could have used a Ramsay Bolton voiceover as an introduction to the unfolding portrayal of the manuscript’s story: “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”
🤢
Adrianacandle,
”By the way, one of my friends lives in Stuttgart now!! 🙂 🙂 I went to high school with her and after she finished her engineering degree, she had an opportunity to work in Germany and she’s there today!”
—-
Is it true “it never rains in Stuttgart”?
“It’s Raining Again” – Roger Hodgson, Live in Stuttgart with Stuttgart Symphony Orchestra
July 2013
Efi,
I love how you just make these statements like they will definitely happen in the books even though there is now way to actually know that.
Ten Bears,
I think you watched a different show.
Efi,
I agree with you here. I also think Bran won’t be as much of a robot as in the show. I also think
This theory could also be the reason why in the end it’s logical that Bran becomes the new King, if he was willing to do what needs to be done (in that theory) to defeat the WW. How could people not back him up?
As for Arya I think it really depends on many things in the next book. How long will the long night be? If it takes years it could mean that Arya is much older in the end if not I agree that maybe long more for home, but also for her age she had already have a big adventure which was in a very important stage of her life, which could mean that her life will be shaped around “fleeing”/”adventure”. But there are also other factors to have in mind. What if Arya won’t be let go by the FLM and in fact she goes against one of her asignments that lead to the FLM hunting her? Or maybe in the end Arya has be given a task to find what’s west of westeros because of prophecy, visions or even simpler news that there is something west and she takes on that job to find it out?
As for people finding out Jon’s parentage, it really matters of course, we are so focused on that his parentage is there for the Iron Throne storyline. But is it not much more reasonable that it’s there for the WW-storyline. Rheagar was so obsessed with the WW and Azor Ahai prophecy that I think in the end that is why it’s important who Jon’s parents are. (Maybe a warg-gene that the starks have and a Dragon-riding/hatch gene that the Targs have will be something magical to defeat the WWs but that both of those genes need to be activated, like for instance his warg-gene by being almost dead).
But we will need to wait a while till winds of winter comes out, if it comes out (I still believe it will come out but will it come out when our interest is still there).
Fireandblood87,
I agree we don’t know what will happen of course, it can go any way still. Still Efi state is as “I think…” not as a fact.
Oh! There’s now a way to actually know what will happen in the books? What, warging into GRRM’s brain?
kevin1989,
P.S. Kevin: There’s a Roger Hodgson video in my 10:16 am comment in case you’re thinking about seeing him when he comes to town in September.
kevin1989,
“…maybe in the end Arya has be given a task to find what’s west of westeros because of prophecy, visions or even simpler news that there is something west and she takes on that job to find it out?”
——
Work with me here, because my books! knowledge is second-hand:
Isn’t there lots of book! lore about mysterious cultures in the East? (Asshai? Other places?)
If so, then if Arya keeps sailing west…eventually she will wind up in the East.
Do folks in ASOIAF know the world is round or do they think it’s flat? Has anyone ever circumnavigated their globe? Or would Arya be the first…🗡👸🏻🌎⛵️
How so?
Ten Bears,
Thank you, I will think about it. 😉 But why not visit The Netherlands yourself? September is most of the time still a degree of 18/25. (especially since the global warming, that chinese Hoax).
Ten Bears,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4J16GzUJ28
have fun, some places sounds too scary somehow. I really could feel some places to be around me, like Asshai, or Yi-Ti. I think that vibe is scarier than the White Walkers.
Jenny,
Yes, Jeremy Strong was great. He kind of reminded me the work Alfie Allen did as Reek… They both had to portray a broken man and they both nailed it.
Succession is really brilliant… And the ending was… WOW! 😁 Can’t wait to see the next season.
Ten Bears,
I agree with all of the positives, and I agree about season 8 Euron, Season 7 Winterfell plot, and Ramsay torture porn, to a certain extent. It was important to show Theon’s transformation into Reek, but I think they overdid it. I disagree about the rest of your negatives. I don’t even know what you mean by Jon being neutered and Tyrion being lobotomized. I, for one, highly enjoyed the High Sparrow as an antagonist.
My mum used to sing that song at me whenever it rained ☔
You made replicas???
Hey, when you’ve been in Calgary, have you ever been to the Glenbow? 😀
You did make replicas!!! That must have been work O_O Wow!
Yes, sometimes that happens to me too — a certain song (ahem, Tale as Old as Time. I am a sucker for Disney…) or especially a smell. It can be so unexpected and, sometimes, almost too much. Happiness and sadness all in one ball of suddeness.
Did you see it when it came to Calgary in summer 2010?? 😀 I agree, I could spend days at that exhibit, there’s just so much and so many creative ways of displaying flayed bodies!
I loved seeing the differences between the average person and professional athletes (like ballet dancers and soccer players!)
I’m glad I could spread the repulsion from that nightmare around! XD And I agree, not even Hot Pie could sell spider leg sausage to me all wrapped up in his golden crispy crust ;D
I’ve been playing the Witcher (and I suck) and they have these giant insects in the game that you have to fight. They inspire real genuine fear in me, especially the giant arachnids, to the point where I’ve screamed out loud several times. And, oh god, giant centipedes. But anyway, it got me thinking that I am kind of really grateful they didn’t have the ice spiders in the show ;D But I have friends who love spiders like you! Love love love them! I’m afraid I can’t share the love ;;
I strongly second recommendation to visit the Netherlands — A+ juice, war fries, the Albert Heijn grocery store chain, the Efteling, Chocomel, bikes to work off A+ juice, war fries, Chocomel, and…. the Pannenkoekenschip (cherry pancakes, all kinds of dinner pancakes, apple bacon pancakes, and so much more!)
I also second recommendation to watch that video on the strange, strange unsettling places in the East of … Planeteos(???) 🙂
kevin1989,
Didn’t Book Jon sometimes already warg or at least semi-warg into Ghost sometimes? He certainly had a sense of when Ghost was around without necessarily seeing him.
Ten Bears,
I sincerely can say that it was a very interesting movie in that respect. And frankly, lately I haven’t seen many interesting movies. So I enjoyed Nocturnal Animals even though it was a harsh but human movie, and Lobster for the same reason. [btw lately I’ve been thinking of how to take revenge on my enemies, lol… when I was younger I could always come up with a clever torture plan, but since I got much, much older I think that a good curse will do the trick without me sweating about it]
I think Marvel and Disney monopolize a big part of the market and the result is that movies are made for 12 y-o. And good movies rarely reach my country in the last couple of years where distribution companies have taken a 180 turn towards the commercial.
Until a few years ago my students were like, “oh, our teacher has watched Star Wars and Batman, cool”. But alas, I can’t say the same for Avengers…
kevin1989,
So lately I’ve been re-reading some parts of ASoIaF. I’m going by PoV and the things I’ve caught (now that I know the ending as per the show at least) are amazing. To my shame, I was terribly bored with Cersei (and mad), so I dropped her chapters. Jamie though… they are filled with foreshadow, and I don’t remember his chapters being so good the first time.
Next I’ll get to Bran, and I look forward to it. I think Bran has visions of the future too, but I don’t remember him seeing anything in relation to his future self, so I wonder whether I will pick up something upon re-read.
So what’s this thing about carrion crows? It’s found in Daenerys’ chapters in relation to her ending and in Jamie’s chapters in relation to Cersei. Jon is a Crow, but carrion crows plural? Could it be Bran? I wonder. Would Bran actually help to bring down the Lannisters and Daenerys? I don’t know what to make of this.
But my point is that Bran was a boy whom everybody loved; he brought joy to those who knew him, so stripping him of all that friendliness and affability doesn’t seem fair.
As for Arya, she too is very young in the books. I think it’s most probable that she’ll stay at least for a few years close to her siblings and then embark on her adventures.
kevin1989,
Also: Jon has blood of the First Men and blood of Valyria. These are considered to be magical elements.
“The First Men were a savage race, and like the wildlings beyond the Wall, they followed only strength”.
[F&B, to queen Alysanne]
and
“The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword”
[Eddard to Bran, Bran I, AGoT]
Perhaps Rhaegar wanted to join these two for defeating the Others. While the magic of it apparently was his ultimate motivation, this is not known to anybody and his actions resulted in creating chaos, unintentionally but also inevitably. So the magic is one of the reasons why this happened and it will lead to dealing with the threat, but that won’t amend the mistakes of the past. Would this atmosphere of treason and crime be left standing in the end of ADoS? My guess is that it won’t.
Jamie wonders in his chapters whether there was treason against Rhaegar at the Trident. He thinks that it was a kings guard, a Martell, who betrayed him (out of spite for what he did to Elia). If that is true and the Martells are partly responsible for Rhaegar’s death, this will affect the final conclusion (alliances and royal election).
Dame of Mercia,
He did mostly in his sleep though. But by his last chapters, Jon feels like a beast himself, smelling and sensing things as if he’s an animal himself. I don’t think he’s warged while awake, apart from his final moment before dying when he thought about Ghost.
Dame of Mercia,
I think Jon does unintentionally warg Ghost at times and, like Efi said, it’s in his sleep. I don’t know if he has ever warged awake. I don’t think so.
However, he’s been called warg by a few characters.
Efi,
I think you’re right that most of Jon’s warging has been in his sleep and it’s pretty unintentional. After the first instance in ACOK, when he tells Qhorin & co and believes it was a dream, they realize he’s a warg.
In the ADWD instance I think you’re referring to(?), I believe that was early on in the story and I don’t think it’s about Jon feeling like he’s a beast himself, I think it’s more about Jon feeling more alive in Ghost while his waking life is pretty miserable:
I don’t know if it’s confirmed quite yet that Jon warged into Ghost, but it’s a plausible theory definitely. GRRM won’t even confirm that Jon’s dead or alive x_x But Jon’s last word is ‘Ghost.’
Carrion crows seem to be mentioned multiple times in each book by different character POVs (Brienne, Tyrion, Davos, Bran, Cersei, Jon, Arya, Daenerys, Jaime, Reek, The Reaver) but don’t seem specific to Jaime or Daenerys — however, the context of all these mentions tend to be similar (death). In this text (and other stories), carrion crows aren’t represented as creatures taking down their own kills, but as creatures who are feasting on the already-dead — the kills of others. From what I remember, Carrion crows can sometimes be used to symbolize prophecy, intelligence, and/or death or be death messengers, as well as sharing the symbolism of the general type of crow.
Sometimes the context can differ a bit. For instance, in ADWD, when Jon says that peace means peace for all, and the Norrey hawked spats in response, “As well make peace with wolves and carrion crows.”
Adrianacandle,
Correction to last post!
*I don’t know if it’s confirmed quite yet that Jon warged into Ghost *when he was stabbed
*and the Norrey spats in response, “As well make peace with wolves and carrion crows.”
(Removed word ‘hawked’. Was copying the quote and didn’t proof the extra word in time T__T)
Adrianacandle,
don’t forget “bitterballen”, don’t eat frikandel (even when many like it, I don’t like it, but if you like it ask for frikandel special, you get mayonaise, curry with onion.)
Dame of Mercia,
I don’t think that was warging as Starks can warg (like Bran). They can “warg” into their direwolf when they are sleeping, it happens unconsciously and they don’t have control of the direwolf, they just observe what their direwolf does. It also only work with the direwolf that they have a connection with, a bound.
But what I think happens when somebody almost died as a Stark, it enables the warging ability. Like with Bran with his fall. After that they can control their direwolves and in the end warg into other animals which they don’t have a bond with (like Bran does now).
But the thing is that it seems that Starks control over animals is extended than other wargs, for instance Bran can warg into humans.
Efi,
I’m going to do the same thing with Feast and Dance. Per POV.
The crows can also be the 3 eyed crow (wonder why the show changed it too raven). the 3 eyed crow is probably a Targaryen so it’s possible he visits his family members? Or maybe more important people with magic in them. Jon could be Azor Ahai and maybe some magic is stored in him. Dany walked through fire and survived, even when it was a one time deal, something made that happen, and maybe a small trace is still there in Dany. the crow also visit Bran and Bran has als some magic in him.
Efi,
Yes I also think magic is an important motivation for why Rheagar wanted Lyanna, I think the books won’t go with the “they were in love” maybe Lyanna was, but I think Rheagar was mostly obsessed with for-filling prophecy. (Which I don’t see as something bad either).
The only thing I starting to wonder what the important is of the Daynes. I still believe that Dawn is lightbringer and only a Dayne can wield it. But why is that important if not for Azor Ahai prophecy. Or is the blood of the Dayne already a combination of Stark and Targaryen? And I wonder if Ashara Dayne maybe had a child and who that could be and why that child would be important (if the rumors are true that stated in the books this would be a girl). I hope at least that many of these family tree mysteries are resolved in winds, I don’t like it when too many mysteries are left hanging for the endgame, because then the endgame would feel like checking off boxes too much.
Didn’t think about the Martel part. Wonder who it could have been. some theory even suggest and before I write it I say, I find it unlikely and I don’t think I would like it because it would be to difficult to make it believable and not a cop-out, but it makes sense.
Adrianacandle,
Interesting.
Are we talking about the books (only)?
Because on the show, I was kind of disappointed that during “The Long Night” Bran didn’t warg into any human, animal, or other creature to turn the tide of the battle. All he did was zone out in the Godswood, announce “I’m going to go now,” and mind meld with some birdies for some unarticulated reason.
I thought Bran might use The Force to let screaming Jon get past blue flame-spewing Viserion; somehow conceal from the WW lieutenants the approach of the VS dagger-wielding Ninja Warrior Princess; try to scramble NK’s brain momentarily; or provide Theon with a fighting chance instead of “Hey thanks, T! You’re a good man! Now go do your kamikaze charge!”
Bran’s superpowers were as useful as all of the VS swords present at WF that were never used to take out any WWs.
kevin1989,
“1. Robert killed him while Rheagar had his armor on.”
So, therefore, Rhaegar was a knight, who was killed in a battle.
– H. Pie, PhD, Military Historian
kevin1989,
“Dany walked through fire and survived, even when it was a one time deal, something made that happen, and maybe a small trace is still there in Dany.”
Forgive me if I’m conflating books! and show!
Dany twice survived, unburnt: (1) the dragon-hatching fire (S1e10); and (2) the Khal barbecue (S5 or S6).
Were those through “divine intervention,” Targ dragon blood, or just some never-explained phenomena?
If Dany was imbued by a god or gods with something that made her impervious to death-by-incineration, I wonder why that deity would have made it so easy to kill her with one stab with a (non-VS) pocketknife. [Unless of course surviving ordinarily fatal gut wounds was reserved solely for the Lord’s Chosen One, aka ASNAWPTWP 👸🏻.]
Ten Bears,
Yes books only. But I think we need to wait a long time till we get it. (I really hope we get it 🙂 )
Ten Bears,
It seems he was indeed XD
Ten Bears,
Book only, in the books it was a one time only deal. I think it was because of the spell she did with Miri Maaz duhr. Where she burned her. Or a theory is that Miri Maaz duhr was there to help hatch the dragons (on her own account, in the books MMD has a connection to another character who seems to be interested in dragons and Targaryens. Marwyn the archmaester). But we still don’t know why, Martin only states it was a one time deal in the books.
Dany was able to do that twice in the show and seems immune to fire in the show full-stop but in the books, she’s not. As Kevin said, the dragon-hatching was a one-time deal.
However, it’s not explained how Dany was able to do this, just that it was magic — but perhaps a trace of that is still left in Dany.
This is how GRRM explained it in a 1999 chat:
Yes! A few of my friends are big fans of bitterballen but I prefer war fries ;D Mayo, spicy peanut sauce, fried potato strips, not much you can ask for!
Ten Bears,
… all of the VS swords present at WF that were never used to take out any WWs.
Why, it’s almost if the story had a well-established practice of setting up standard fantasy tropes (e.g., swords with magical powers) and then subverting those tropes.
Or if the characters with those swords were otherwise occupied at the time.
Or if the Big Baddie knew he and his generals were vulnerable to magical weapons, and arranged to keep those weapons occupied elsewhere.
Or if all the characters knew they could defeat their magical enemies at once by luring the Big Baddie into a place where he could be attacked by any magical weapon — and had set a trap to do just that.
I’m going to echo Young Dragon here, and say it seems clear you and I somehow watched two totally different shows.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
“Or if all the characters knew they could defeat their magical enemies at once by luring the Big Baddie into a place where he could be attacked by any magical weapon — and had set a trap to do just that.”
So Arya and her magic dagger were part of the trap set by all the characters? I missed that. I could live with that. Alright then.
#ASNAWP
#LastWomanStanding
#LetItGo🎶
#HeroOfWinterfell
Ten Bears,
You should start watching the show instead of writing meaningless comments.
hahhaaa! I like your response.
I cannot believe that a viewer is asserting that the WF group lay a trap for Arya or others to kill the NK with any magic weapon? Is that really the argument? I must be crazy but I swear it was Mel that put the idea to Arya.
The trap was to draw the NK to Bran and kill him with dragon fire. They discussed this in the group – on my TV at least.
Oddly, even they knew that the magic weapons could be deadly to the WW, I do not remember any discussion of this detail. Clearly, no-one with one was even set-up near Bran. His guards – nope! Bran has working arms and did not have even dragon glass with him. Arya and her dagger were not posted anywhere near Bran – if this was supposed to be the trap it was very oddly set. Arya was not even told!
But as you say…alrighty then!
You seem nice.
Mango,
Except, dragon glass is also a magic weapon that can be used against the White Walkers and Bran’s guard was definitely armed with those. So, as usual, you are wrong.
SMALL SPOILER IF YOU HAVEN’T READ THE BOOKS AND MIGHT WANT TO READ THEM.
Adrianacandle,
Re; Dany and burning – in the book version of her mounting and riding off on Drogon for the first time some of the audience in the pit thought she had died when Drogon spat fire – though I will concede book Dany burned her hand on that occasion.
Huh? My post specifically mentions dragonglass!
It says that Bran was not given any DG. I mentioned it because it is also a magic weapon.
Theon attacked with a regular weapon, not DG or VS as far as I recall. Not that it would have helped as he was outnumbered.
As for the others, they may have been carry DG but they did not feature much, did they.
And in the scene discussing the trap for the NK, I do not recall any mention of trying to get him with any special weapons…I may have gone for snacks but I rather doubt that. I remember dragon fire as the focus.
Dame of Mercia,
Are you thinking of this passage or another in which Drogon spats fire at her?
Yeah, I remember her burning her hand when she grabbed the red-hot spear to take it out of Drogon’s back and that her hair has been burnt from Drogon’s flames but the fire may not have reached her skin as Dany seems to have ducked in time. Still, if you’re interested, here’s a good thread discussing this!
Now now, I can attest that Ten Bears has watched the show. They’ve been part of this community for years now, as opposed to some. Besides, even if TB and I may sometimes disagree on a few little things, they always have absolutely meaningful AND brilliant insight, and I’ll always be grateful. 🙂
I did! I can’t claim that they were perfect (I always felt they actually turned out best when I free-handed it, as it was rare to find the actual specs of the originals), but they were passable and I really loved it. 😊 The first one I ever did was because I had an option to do a “project” instead of yet another essay for one of my Classics classes, so I asked if I could replicate a Roman wall painting. My prof really liked it and suggested I volunteer at the museum. So I did! I can be pretty creative but I often need a shove, so I’m thankful for the shovers of the world. 🤪
I haven’t been to the Glenbow since I was 10, so now that my sister lives in Calgary I am hoping to make it there again this year. She’s in Mount Royal, so not terribly far. It was Edmonton that I saw the Body Worlds exhibit, I had been wanting to see it for ages since reading about it! ❤ I distinctly remember my nephew was concerned that it would be quite difficult for the bodies not to pee on the floor if they had no skin to hold it in.
Sometimes I truly wish more people thought like 7 year olds.
Mango,
I cannot believe that a viewer is asserting that the WF group lay a trap for Arya or others to kill the NK with any magic weapon? Is that really the argument? I must be crazy but I swear it was Mel that put the idea to Arya.
Bran laid the trap; the lack of VS or dragonglass blades in the Godswood was intentional. This was to draw in the NK, to keep the NK believing he had finally won. That is why Bran looks totally unconcerned by the NK’s raised sword, so much so that the NK actually looked surprised — and then Arya arrives.
Bran and the Lord of Light were plotting “over the heads” of the other characters. (As they had no dialog scenes together, this could not be stated by characters in the show.) After Beric’s death, Melisandre finally understands what her Lord of Light was trying to tell her: that Arya was the one chosen to kill the NK. The Lord of Light kept Beric alive for this purpose, so Beric could save Arya to kill the NK.
Dany proposed to kill the NK with dragon fire, and Bran noncommittally responded that no one — not even he — knew if it would work, as it had never been tried. (She did try, and failed.) Therefore, Bran was not going to count on dragon fire killing the NK, especially when he knew the VS weapon he had handed to Arya on that very spot would do the trick just nicely.
Just because it’s a TV show does not mean every last detail will be shown and explained to the audience. Both GRRM and B&W wanted their audience to think.
Adrianacandle,
I’ve also been laughing a bit too hard at this, partly because of using the colours so much in painting, and partly because of poor Ned Umber…..
https://i.chzbgr.com/full/9442757376/hC350DC65/cook-umber-color-drighten-colo-drighten-y-acryli-acrylu-raw-umber-burnt-umber-04-oz-12m-04-oz-12ml
Mango,
No, Theon attacked with a dragon glass tipped spear, as all the weapons being used in that battle were dragon glass, Valyrian steel, and fire. We see Theon killing wights with the spear, so Bran’s guards were using magical weapons.
Bran wasn’t a fighter, so of course he didn’t have a weapon. Being crippled, it wouldn’t have been of much use. Regardless, it was never the plan for the Night King to get that close. The plan was to lure him and Viserion out into the open so Jon and Danerys could take him out with dragon fire.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I agree. It was pretty obvious that Bran set a trap for the Night King. Bran lured him into the godswood where Night King is vulnerable and the proof of that is that Bran smiled at him.
Pigeon,
Well, with that what ten bears writes it is hard for me to believe that. The only ones that match this predicate are Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss for their marvelous final season. I will always be greatful.
hahhahhahhaaaa!
There is a large difference between understanding the story and MAKING UP your own story. A story has to be told in some way by the storyteller, not imagined post hoc.
You are making up your own story.
Bran did nothing of the sort. Not from the story on the screen.
You do this qute a bit. This is not the first time that, I have responded to your making this “story up”. It is not a clever thing to do – it does not arise from understanding.
Poor Theon.
You could be right on Theon’s equipment, I do not remember. It did not matter anyway.
And as you say :
The plan was to lure him and Viserion out into the open so Jon and Danerys could take him out with dragon fire.
Another poster is asserting that from the seen story that Bran directed the entire thing – the entire series it seems. Of course, lying to even one else during the process and leaving poor Theon and others dead. I do not think even Isaac Hemsptead knew that.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
You should see some of the interviews given by Isaac Hempstead after the series about Bran’s motivations and actions. There is nothing there that even slightly suggests your tales and understandings.
A story has to be told by the storyteller.
Mango,
It seems you have been paying attention to the show. That’s true it was so they could burn the NK down with Dragonfire. Arya wasn’t even into play in the plan until Mel told her to go. It seems Mel has more insight than the rest of WF when it comes to battle tactics.
Mango,
It was. You have been paying attention in season 8.
1. I rewatched the final sequence of S8e3. I did not see Bran “smile” at Ol’ Blue Eyes.
2. If he did, perhaps it was a romantic gesture.
And of course, Bran and the God of Light did nothing about the greater threat – Daenerys.
It is always weaker to understand a story based on the invisible power of a god – it is a post hoc rationalization.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
This comment made me laught a bit XD
All what you state is just speculation and has little back-up in the show that this is what they were after. It’s just speculation that has no basis in the show itself, in the inside fragments or any interview that they have given that this is the big plan that Bran had. And if it was it was poorly done by them, at least that is my opinion.
The most logical answer is that their plan just failed, but in the end by coincidence they defeated the WW. Everyone was there at the right time.
Yes Mellisandre understood it. But to say Bran has made that plan with the Lord of Light himself is just laughable, nothing in the show, interviews etc state any connection the the lord of light and Bran. If we go with that assumption we could also say that Cersei has made her plan with the great other and the WW and that when she watched outside with her glass of wine she was communicating with him.
Mango,
D&D were so brilliant in their storytelling and letting the audience think for themselves to figure it out. That even the actors haven’t figure it out yet. Brilliant final season.
Ten Bears,
It was a little smile and he looked at the place where the children put the knife in the Night kings heart.
Mango,
You obviously didn’t unterstand anything or just refuse to unterstand it on purpose because otherwise you would have to admit that you are wrong, as always.
Yup.
Some assertions make the storytelling appear to be even more pathetic than it actually was. I did not think that was possible.
To take direction from TB, you seem nice.
“Burnt Umber.” 🔥🥳🤪😋🙂🤪
Adrianacandle,
Conan O’Brien & GoT cast
Part 1: 57 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEVP7lrENFM
at ~ 30 min mark, Sophie, Kit, Isaac and Maisie
at ~ 49 min mark, Rory
——-
Part 2: 42 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4jX3KV6tRU
———
Mango,
What else can you expect from Hater?!
The LightKing,
Let it go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvEAklsAAts
——-
Ten Bears,
It is funny to see how people refuse to accept that their opinion is wrong and throwing meaningless comments in the room to prove a point.
I know, right? I wish those “people” would just stop offering their opinions and cease posting comments to prove their point.
It gets tedious, doesn’t it? Don’t they know that only one opinion is the correct one?
🤫
Ten Bears,
Pffff
It’s the year 2069, The 10th prequel of game of thrones just aired it’s final episode. Another critical acclaimed fantasy show in the world of Planetos has just finish it’s 8th season. But that is not what the fans are talking about. Fans are still talking about the controversial final season of the main show that aired in 2019, people still listing their problems of the last season of the show and what they don’t like and other’s keep on reacting how brilliant the last season was. Somewhere through all the comments we could filter some opinions that are about the prequel that just ended, it seems that people liked it even when almost no comment is about it.
In other news on the same day: GRRM just announced the release date of Dream of Springs. We maybe waited a bit, but it’s finally here. GRRM also announced that the 8th book “Time for wolves” will be released shorty after Dream of Springs and will complete the saga.
Mango,
It does matter, as that was the point of my comment. You said something that was inherently false, so I corrected you.
I wouldn’t say Bran orchestrated the whole thing, but he did foresee it and made sure it played out as it was supposed to.
kevin1989,
He wasn’t paying enough attention, as he didn’t even know that Bran’s guards were armed with dragon glass.
Mango,
Well, Danerys wanted to rule everyone and everything. The Night King wanted to kill everyone and everything. Between the two, the Night King was the bigger threat by far.
kevin1989,
D&D gave the audience everything they needed to know. They didn’t feel the need to spell everything out for them and hold their viewers’ hand. They are the perfect examples of master storytellers.
The LightKing,
Opinions can’t be wrong. TB has some problems with season 8, and that’s perfectly ok, but my overall impression with his posts is he feels mostly positive about the show.
Pigeon,
If you ever want to show any photos of the replicas you’ve done, I’d LOVE to see! That’s a skill! I’ve always been crap at drawing, drawing was my worst class during my foundation year at ACAD and sculpture wasn’t far behind XD;;;
I sought the digital sector for a reason 😉 (Charcoal hand avoidance!)
You should! And sometimes, in the evening, they do tours of the regularly closed-off 8th floor where most of the collection is and there are some really incredible things they show up there (and parts of it are haunted!)
I used to volunteer a lot at the Glenbow and did one of my teaching practicums there! I found them such a great place to volunteer at, one of the best.
They did a really great Dior show last year! But I think my favourite exhibition they did ever was The Bog People 🙂 When I was going through that exhibition, the bodies had that blond-red hair as a result of the acidic water in the bog. I have blonde hair with a hint of red in it and I remember somebody giving a light tug on my braid and being like, “Ancestor??”
Aw man, to be preserved in a bog and have my corpse on display in a thousand years. I want THAT to be my legacy! (Or Body Worlds!)
Mount Royal is such a beautiful area, those houses and trees. And it’s time for Body Worlds to come back!
LOL that’s the best XD And such a thought will never leave me whenever I look upon a flayed body…. 🙂
Ten Bears,
Thanks!! I forwarded this to my mum too!! I’ve only watched half so far while I was getting ready this afternoon but it’s a great watch!
Ten Bears,
Pigeon,
😂😂😂
“Always the artists.” — Mance Rayder
Pigeon: I’ll now have to start an Art Humor collection thanks to that XD;; And why is there no crispy-golden-brown-baked-to-perfection equivalent of umber?
Ten Bears: I thought of Maisie Williams yesterday while I was on a Jenna Marbles binge! A while ago (2018), Maisie said this in an interview:
While I’ve been prepping another project for the laser, I came across said soap dog bed video 🙂
(Which took me to Jenna making a soap hand which led me to another pair of YouTubers making a mood ring toilet seat, something I may or may not have started researching for my own… house…)
Young Dragon,
I do not think so. If someone says the earth is flat and we all know it is not, then this person has the wrong opinion because the facts prove it. When people say that Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet, but in fact she didn’t because they talked about it in the very same episode then this people have the wrong opinion because the facts prove it and in my opinion TB is pretty negative about the show. He/She hate season 7 and 8 and according to the own statements, don’t even recognize them. Hates the most of season 5, 6 and is only positive about 1-4.
The LightKing,
The only reason people say that Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet is because David and Dan said so. Are they wrong about their own story? They also said that we had witnessed the end of the Dothraki in The Long Night, were they wrong about that too? I would hope not, since they wrote the thing. It may have been their intention to show Dany forgetting, and it didn’t translate to the screen. In that case, the fault lies with them for failing to depict it clearly. Nobody forced them to point it out after the fact.
Sigh!
(i) The Long Night was also the VERY DARK night. If you care to recall, many people worldwide had trouble SEEING what happened in that episode.
(ii) For TV, my memories are formed from verbal and visual experiences. For this episode’s memories, what I heard dominates what I could see.
(iii) I heard (and saw!) the discussion of the trap. You posted (as I did) that the trap was to have Bran draw the NK and kill by dragon fire. This was the main point of the exchange.
(iv) In the discussion of the trap, I did not hear any discussion of the deployment of special weapons (DG& VS) to Theon or the guards or anyone so they could kill the NK. That was NOT the trap plan.
(v) I already said you may be quite right on whatever Theon was carrying. I do not remember mainly as it was a minor issue as he was outnumbered and my visual memory due to the darkness of that episode is not great. I also have no memory of what Theon was wearing. I remember what Bran said. (I may have gone for snacks, I confess). I do not mind being wrong – I am cool with that. It does not bother me.
(vi) I do not often engage with you due to your poor etiquette and over time, I see no improvement in your conduct. Your parents and relatives should help you more.
Jenny,
It doesn’t matter what D&D said. All that matters is what is presented in the show, and in the show, there is no indication that Danerys forgot about the Iron Fleet and obviously, the Dothraki were still around, though very few of them. D&D may have had certain intentions when writing the show that didn’t play out, but so what? They are hardly the only writers guilty of this. In fact, George R.R. Martin is guilty of this as well. He said Doran Martell is a master player when he’s really an idiot and he said Darkstar was a badass when he’s actually lame as hell.
Jenny,
Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss have often misspoken and this not for the first time. In that case it’s their fault but what happened on the screen is canon.
Mango,
Arming everyone with dragon glass weapons was the battle plan. They made a big deal of it in both seasons 7 and 8 about arming everyone with wight/White Walker killing weapons. Fair enough about the episode being too dark to see, but you should have known that they would have been armed with dragon glass, as that was an important plot point in seasons 7 and 8.
It’s not my etiquette that’s the problem. You post the same illogical nonsense with very little content to back it up, and when I call you out on it, you get upset. If you can’t back up your comments, maybe you shouldn’t be posting them.
You do not upset me at all. Not ever.
Indeed. 2069 and beyond!
Young Dragon,
I’m just pointing out that the ‘Dany forgot the Iron Fleet’ idea was not something created by fans, and therefore not an example of people having the ‘wrong opinion’. They gave this information after the episode aired, and I assume that the behind the scenes video was shot after the show was made, so they knew what happened on screen, and it didn’t match their own words. It is their fault for confusing the issue. I’m not saying that is a punishable offence, its not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but that doesn’t make it any less true.
The LightKing,
I take author intention quite seriously, not everybody does (as I am learning). When I read and watch things, I obviously form my own opinion and discuss it with others. I like to exchange different interpretations, but if the author chooses to elaborate/clarify, I take that on board too. More often than not, I consume media and never hear from the creators, so my interpretation remains. But when they choose to speak (and it is a choice) I listen and take it into consideration. I might think ‘oof, you missed the mark there’ or ‘wow, I hadn’t thought of that’. It’s not always a bad thing. It’s more enlightening with TV, because we obviously can’t get into the heads of the characters, any additional info is welcome, with books, its there on the page.
In this specific case, it’s barely worth mentioning, it is what Dany is supposed to thinking for 10 minutes of her life, not an analysis of her entire character. People latched onto it because it is such a silly idea, how could D&D have intended such a thing in the first place?
Jenny,
People tend to forget the “word of god” in television and movie. That states that what the writers say is above what was on screen. If they say this happen, this happen. They are the god of their work in a sense and they created it. I already showed that rule here and it was “looked over” on purpose.
But let’s say it’s true that D&D didn’t know what they wrote and Dany didn’t forget. That would say a lot of how out of touch they are with their own work. So it’s a bit of a two-edged-sword. Either they our out of touch with their work and didn’t know what they were writing or Dany forgot the Iron Fleet. Personally I would go with the last, because I don’t want to think about D&D not knowing what they were writing and just doing something.
kevin1989,
One of my theories, is that she did forget the Iron Fleet, and they were right about that. However, because of the swift pace, it looked like she forgot in a matter of minutes, when in reality, it would have been a few days. In that moment she was not thinking about potential danger, she was busy checking on Rhaegar. Now, that was mind numbingly stupid, but I think that is what might have happened. It was convenient to the plot that she be taken unawares, even though the Iron Fleet would have been visible to her in the air from miles away, if she had bothered to look. No matter how I approach it, this set piece does not work for me at all.
BINGO
Mr Derp,
It fits with what they said, and there is nothing on screen to contradict it (that I can remember) so I actually think it is the most likely answer. In this case, we can believe what we want, there is nothing to say that she forgot (aside from D&D) there is nothing to say that she didn’t forget in that specific moment, which takes place days after the meeting. Either way I don’t like it lol.
Jenny,
Yea, some people were good with it and that’s fine, but it didn’t work for me.
You’re approaching enemy territory. You’re about to enter a clearing where you and yours will be visible and out in the open. This would be a perfect place to set a trap or ambush for you. Your guard should be up at this exact moment. Dany is also riding a dragon, which gives her visible superiority over the area. Dragons are also supposedly incredibly smart.
So, what does Dany and company decide to do? Stare at Rhaegal and be distracted at the EXACT moment your company is about to be exposed and out in the open near enemy territory. She just walked right into the trap like it was her first day on the job. Then what does she do? Divebombs right at the IF when they are shooting ballistas directly at her. She could’ve easily flown behind the fleet and torched them while the IF was changing the direction of the scorpions. They had sails anyway and you can’t shoot through the sails, so it should’ve been very easy for Dany to take out the IF from behind. But that wouldn’t open the door for the cheap drama that resulted, I guess.
Don’t get me wrong. I’ve never considered Dany to be a brilliant military strategist, but the way that scene played out was a major stretch in logic to advance the plot. it really made the characters look completely inept, IMO.
Jenny,
I think more like between 1 and 2 weeks. She first needed to go to White harbor and then on boat to Dragonstone. Or is my though on how fast they travel between those parts off?
Mr Derp,
But the thing is that Dany is pretty strategic. Look at how she took Astapor, Yunkaii, Meereen. She was ordering the troops there. Yes she asks Grey worm for advice there but she was the one that came up with the plans. Especially how to take Astapor and that was some amazing strategic though.
And I will say, it’s good to see you back mr Derp.
The LightKing,
Opinions and facts are not the same thing, it is true. If someone says the earth is flat or that Danerys forgot about the Iron Fleet, they are not expressing their opinion, they are factually incorrect. These can be proven wrong. Opinions have to do with one’s personal feelings. When people say that they are disappointed with season 8, that can’t be proven wrong, because that is how they feel. Most of the criticisms against season 8 are opinions. They express how they feel about certain aspects and how they personally wanted the story to go. That’s not enough for some people. It’s only when people go a step further and try to point out objective flaws in the writing is where their arguments fall apart. An example of this is when people try to point out plot holes that don’t exist or when people call season 8 rushed when it is really fast paced.
Mango,
I wouldn’t have guessed that from reading your comments, but that’s great to hear!
Jenny,
I understand where people are getting this from, and I agree that D&D are responsible, but as stated people are acting like this has never happened before. Writers write their stories and characters intending for them to be interpreted in a certain way, and yet every single story has a wide variety of interpretations. I, for one, don’t care what the writers say as I feel what they say no longer matters after they release their story to the public. I make my interpretations with the facts hand. If the writer meant for me to interpret the story in a different way, he should have written it differently. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, either. Sometimes, I prefer my interpretation to the writer’s intent. Danerys did not forget about the Iron Fleet. The facts aren’t there to show it.
kevin1989,
No, that’s incorrect. Show canon is what’s presented in the show. That is why it’s called show canon. D&D, like all writers, aren’t gods. They can’t will Danerys forgetting about the Iron Fleet into existence any more than Martin willing Doran Martell being a master player into existence. Both have already been written and the ink is dry. There’s nothing more any of them can do.
As I said previously, all writers are guilty of this. They write something with a certain intent and it’s not interpreted the way they intended it would be. No, D&D are not out of touch with reality. How could they be when they’ve created the biggest show in history? They made a mistake that all writers have made, and if they were anyone else, you wouldn’t care.
So it’s not so much that people forgot the “word of god” in television shows and movies so much so as it doesn’t exist.
Jenny,
Sorry, but it’s not mind numbingly stupid for a parent to be concerned about her child. She picked the absolute worst moment to express concern, it is true, but that doesn’t make it stupid. And Danerys couldn’t see the Iron Fleet from her angle. They were hiding behind rocks and were out of view.
kevin1989,
Danerys taking Astapor was a badass moment for sure, but I wouldn’t say she was being strategic. The slavers were idiots for giving her full command of an army, especially while inside the walls of Astapor.
Bran laid the trap; the lack of VS or dragonglass blades in the Godswood was intentional.
Well, I got that totally wrong. I just re-watched the sequence, and Theon killed a few wights with a dragonglass-tipped spear. (For all of the good it did him.)
…Bran looks totally unconcerned by the NK’s raised sword, so much so that the NK actually looked surprised — and then Arya arrives.
Bran did not smile, he just looked placidly unconcerned, which gave the NK pause.
Bran and the Lord of Light were plotting “over the heads” of the other characters. (As they had no dialog scenes together, this could not be stated by characters in the show.) After Beric’s death, Melisandre finally understands what her Lord of Light was trying to tell her: that Arya was the one chosen to kill the NK. The Lord of Light kept Beric alive for this purpose, so Beric could save Arya to kill the NK.
That’s my interpretation, of course, but it fits all of the material presented:
— The Lord of Light was clearly real;
— The Lord of Light could and did send clear messages about the threat posed by the Army of the Dead;
— The Lord of Light resurrected Beric and Jon to defeat the NK.
Bran could see all of this, so whether he ever communicated with the Lord of Light is not relevant; perhaps I overstated the case. He seemed to know Arya was coming to kill the NK, even though the Lord of Light had cleared her path to do so.
I couldn’t possibly care less about what an actor says about the story. An actor knows what is in the script, and may know or guess at other ideas based on the direction given during production. All of my statements come from watching what happened on-screen.
In retrospect, it seems obvious the NK had the NW under green-seer surveillance during their foray to the Fist of the First Men. This explains the disaster which struck them there. We can also ret-con Arya’s ridiculous survival of multiple gut-stab wounds (followed by a swim in some seriously diseased water with said open wounds!) by having the Lord of Light intervene to save her. We know he kept Beric alive for this purpose.
If having the NK defeated by nothing more than coincidence works for you, great; I think that would rob the story of much emotional impact. You have the same right to your interpretation as I have to mine.
Mr Derp,
You’re approaching enemy territory.
Dany headed for Dragonstone — a small, exposed island — as if it was a perpetual safe haven. She never considered it might be a really, really good place for a seaborne ambush. Euron was a pirate king, and as such, knew exactly how to set up exactly such an ambush. Dany was a fool to overfly water when she had no need to do so.
Dany made a number of big mistakes, all of which are sadly familiar to any student of military history:
— Attacking King’s Landing in the first place. Cersei was self-imprisoned in the Red Keep. Since the death of King Robert, the occupant of the Iron Throne had been little more than the Mayor of King’s Landing anyhow. (Had she even left the Red Keep after her Walk of Shame, Shame, Shame?) The easiest path forward for Dany, as she’d said in Meereen, was to rule. Travel about her kingdoms, appointing new officials and creating new titles, as she had with Gendry. Anyone who doubted her ability to do this could argue with her armies and dragons.
— Pushing tired and depleted armies against a well-prepared fortress which can be resupplied from the sea. (We might think Ser Davos Seaworth, The Onion Knight, could have told her a thing or two about the problem with this approach, but she didn’t ask.) Again, there was simply no need to do this.
— Flying around in plain sight as if she and her dragons were invulnerable. The Night’s King had shown her the problem with this attitude, but she still didn’t learn.
Dany is a classic example of a tragic hero, undone by her own hubris. GRRM and B&W skillfully presented her as a romantic hero who had a few flaws, then yanked the rug out from under everyone who had fallen for it. That is some truly great storytelling.
Young Dragon,
”…Opinions have to do with one’s personal feelings. When people say that they are disappointed with season 8, that can’t be proven wrong, because that is how they feel.”
• Thank you for pointing this out.
As someone once said, people are entitled to their own opinions; they aren’t entitled to their own facts. (Or, to phrase it in terms of the current political climate, there’s no such thing as “alternative facts,” no matter what Kellyanne says.)
• A problem arises when what we see on the screen is ambiguous or unexplained – and then the showrunners later clarify their intentions (and describe their characters’ thoughts and emotions).
• You posited that when people assert “Daenerys forgot about the Iron Fleet, they are not expressing their opinion, they are factually incorrect.” The whole debate over this started when Benioff, in the Inside the Episode” segment, came right out and said “Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet.” It’s kind of hard to blame fans for making a “factually incorrect“ statement when the showrunner himself stated it, isn’t it?
• I had a similar problem with Weiss’ explanation for Dany’s sudden decision to incinerate innocent civilians of KL after the Lannister defenders had already surrendered. Weiss said something like when Dany saw the Red Keep, it was a “symbol” of all that had been taken from her, and at that moment she decided to “make it personal.” I still don’t know how to interpret that.
If it was “personal,” one would think Dany would make a beeline straight to the Red Keep and blast Cersei and her wine glass off her balcony. I don’t know how zig zagging through the city and immolating children in the streets vindicated Dany’s “personal” grievances.
Also, I thought her rage was the culmination of losing her loved ones (e.g., Jorah and Missandei); the ingratitude of people she’d saved at great personal sacrifice; the betrayals of her supposedly loyal advisors; the backstabbing and subterfuges of folks who for some reason didn’t like her and wanted her out of the way; and the emotional estrangement from her boyfriend.
I did NOT sense that Dany was triggered by the sight of the Red Keep as a “symbol” or reminder of what had been “taken from her” or her family.
In fact, at that very moment she had triumphantly retaken the city and the throne from the Lannister/Baratheon “usurpers.” She has achieved her objective. She had freed the people from Cersei’s (supposed) tyranny. I could understand a little gloating; spiking the ball; or otherwise celebrating the vanquishing of her enemies. I would’ve been okay with Dany frog-marching Cersei through the streets and forcing her to do a perp walk before shackling her in the black cells to join the decomposing remains of Tyene and whatever was left of Ellaria. I would’ve imagined that after the firestorm she’d reassure the terrified population that the bloodshed was over and a brighter future lay ahead for them (just like the people she’d freed from servitude who were initially confused before hailing her as “Mhysah”).
I just didn’t interpret Dany seeing the Red Keep (which she’d never even seen before) as a reason to strafe the city streets with “fire and blood” – while Cersei herself almost waltzed away from the carnage. Should Weiss’ explanation be deemed “canon”? If so, it confounded me.
• In any event, in the absence of exposition by the characters, can fans be faulted for accepting the writers’ declarations of the characters’ motives as factual “canon”?
• I had a similar problem when Weiss, in an Inside the Episode commentary during S5, discussed Arya’s scene on the Braavos sock when she couldn’t bear to throw Needle in the water.
Weiss said [something like] Arya’s reluctance was because Needle represented an “instrument of Stark vengeance.”
However, from Maisie’s wonderful wordless, tearful performance – along with my familiarity with Arya’s iconic internal monologue in the books – I thought Arya couldn’t part with Needle because it reminded her of her home and family, e.g., “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile.”
I did not see anger or vengefulness in show! Arya’s expressions. I saw homesickness in her visage; I saw on the screen a teary-eyed girl reminiscing about happier times with her family in WF before they were murdered or scattered, and she was forced to become a lonely, homeless refugee and serial hostage/captive.
When she held Needle, I saw Arya thinking back to when her brother gave her that sword – as we were repeatedly reminded in her S4 scenes with Sandor (e.g., in S4e1, Arya: “My brother gave me that sword!” and in S4e7, Sandor: ”You say your brother gave you that sword.”)
• All of these scenes evoked certain “personal feelings” from me. I acknowledge that other viewers’ perceptions were different than mine. I also agree with you that whether viewers’ reactions to S8 ranging from disappointment to admiration – are opinions.
• I’d also suggest that many fans, like me, thought some aspects of S8 were great, and other aspects were not. I still don’t believe it has to be an “all or nothing” proposition. We can each applaud what we thought were grand slams while whinging about the whiffs, without being labeled “haters” or pigeonholed as sycophants of “Mr. Benioff & Mr. Weiss.”
• FYI: I may post links to well-reasoned reviews of S8, some of which laud the final season and others which condemn it. To me, this shows that there’s room for nuance, e.g., mixed opinions. They also illustrate that it’s not so easy to categorize viewers’ assertions as “factually correct” or “factually incorrect.”
For example, “Ozzy Man Reviews” of S8’s episodes are witty and complimentary. Those of Lindsay Ellis take a measured, analytical approach. Those of “Mauler” critique S8 as an epic failure. (Mauler’s videos, along with those of Lindsay Ellis, were cited by another commenter, prompting me to search for them and watch them.) Even when the critics’ exasperation – or exultation – seep through, they still back up what they say with evidence.
By contrast, long-winded, hours-long rants that do nothing more than pillory “D&D as hacks” and call them “Dumb & Dumber” make me cringe. (Yes, I’m referring to you Mr. The Dragon Demands.)
• For me, there were many unforgettable moments in S8 – and others that I’d just as soon wipe from my memory.
Discussing what I (and other fans) felt were “missing scenes,” missed opportunities, jettisoned story lines, unresolved mysteries, logical gaps, inconsistent character behavior, and underwhelming resolutions, don’t make us “haters.”
Likewise, expressing appreciation for the scenes we enjoyed doesn’t make us mindless D&D fluffers.
I acknowledge the challenges faced by the showrunners in concluding a complex saga after GRRM left them twisting in the wind, forcing them to finish the story for him: a task they didn’t sign up for when they undertook the TV adaptation of ASOIAF.
I have no doubt that if they had seven or eight years between seasons, they would’ve come up with better dialogue, better story lines, and better resolutions. They could have revised or rewritten scripts that came out wonky. They could have fine-tuned story lines and fleshed out character development. They might have summoned more creative energy and found more artistic inspiration if they had had the opportunity to relax and recharge.
GRRM has that luxury. The showrunners did not.
Do I wish they’d done a better job in many respects? Of course I do. Yet, I cannot say anyone else would’ve done better in their shoes. Nor do I presume to be qualified to opine that any competent screenwriter would’ve been able to keep the story fresh and exhilarating after ten grueling years. (Sh*t, most marriages don’t last that long, and many that do are completely drained of emotion and bereft of any excitement.)
At least the showrunners supplied an ending – something the Big Kahuna has been unable to do, and likely never will be able to do. In that regard, we’re fortunate that the showrunners didn’t have the option of repeatedly blowing deadlines, the “freedom” to give HBO excuses for indefinitely delaying succeeding seasons, or carte blanche to rewrite and re-shoot episodes after they’d already been filmed.
• A final bit of G-blaming. (Last one. I promise. For now. 🤫) His justification for divorcing himself from production of the show after S4 was that he needed to focus on writing the books. How did that work out?
• Though I know others disagree, I’m convinced that if he’d remained invested in the show, his head would’ve stayed focused on his fictional ASOIAF world and he would’ve been able to find the “voices” of his characters. It seems to me that after separating himself from the show’s production, it’s been all too easy for him to be distracted by other projects. (Targaryen histories? Really?)
• Plus – as I’ve said before – the four (?) scripts he wrote during S1 – S4 were among my favorites. I have to wonder how much time it really would’ve taken for him to contribute one script per season for S5 – S8. It’s not as if he’s used that freed-up time to complete the books. (Is there any indication he’s even made any headway since releasing a few TWOW sample chapters several years ago?)
• I’m also convinced that if he’d been involved in fashioning the “connective tissue” for the show between where his books left off and the final destination, the show would’ve greatly benefitted from his input if not his guidance. Certainly it would’ve quieted the rabid “book wankers” who accused the showrunners of “butchering“ G’s masterpiece, dumbing down his characters, and turning his story into a Disneyfied shell of itself, with spectacle and cliche replacing intricate plotting and complex characters.
• In my mind, there’s no way in the world GRRM would ever give his imprimatur to the ridiculous S7 wight hunt, the absurd S7 Arya vs. Sansa vs. LF story line, the silly S8 Bran Bait Plan, or the tired old mothership device to defeat the WWs simply by killing their head honcho. I’m sure he would’ve insisted on more innovative and intelligent twists to advance the plot lines. Similarly, I doubt he would have sacrificed Tyrion’s wit and cleverness, Jon Snow’s nobility and virtuousness, Varys’s intelligence and instincts, LF’s credible duplicity, Jaime’s conflicting impulses pitting his self-loathing oathbreaker reputation vs. aspiring to live up to his honorable side, and Sansa’s courtesy (and evolving interpersonal skills) – merely to hasten hitting plot points, or to manufacture and extend conflicts over two seasons that could’ve been resolved in a single episode (e.g., nuking the Red Keep right away in S7e1 or e2 rather than pursuing a series not-so “clever plans” that all failed and only served to decimate Dany’s forces).
I’m positive GRRM would’ve integrated Bran’s superpowers and Sam’s book smarts into useful if not indispensable roles in defeating the WWs, and that the true backstory of the WWs and supposed first Long Night would’ve been revealed; there would’ve been a meaningful purpose for Jon’s resurrection, and the secret of his parentage would’ve had more impact other than just one of many reasons for Dany to go nuts; at least some of the prophecies would have been figuratively if not literally fulfilled; and the recurring dichotomy of “official” historical accounts vs what really happened would have had a big payoff. Arya’s post-Braavos story would not have been a cut and paste job of book! Manderly Frey pies, and book! LSH’s House Frey vendetta; Nymeria and her pack would not just make a quick cameo and never be seen again; Arya would not have been recruited to play Batman and single-handed my snuff out the existential threat while Jon yelled at an undead dragon and Bran warged into birdies for no apparent reason; Euron would’ve been excised completely rather than wasting precious screentime with his cartoon villain shtick; ditto the purportedly formidable Golden Conpany; kowtowing to fan service, e.g., Cleganebowl, would’ve been vetoed and replaced with a more meaningful end for Sandor fka the Hound; the WW threat would not have been neatly wrapped up in the course of one battle lasting a few hours, but rather would’ve posed a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” quandary for the two main protagonists.
Out of pride if nothing else, GRRM would have been spurred to come up with engrossing story lines and character conflicts to seamlessly bridge the gap between where his last book left off, and where the ultimate end game(s) would play out. Even if shocking, the conclusions would feel “earned” [the way book readers have described the Red Wedding]. He wouldn’t have been content to deflect concerns about the trajectory of the show by spouting platitudes like “the show’s the show and the books are the books“ or “ask Dave and Dan.”. He would’ve cared. Even if he only scripted one episode per season those scripts would’ve anchored the story in the world he had created, rather than the showrunners ad hoc version.
But once GRRM untethered himself from the show, the brilliance of his writing that had attracted readers to ASOIAF and had made the TV show a worldwide phenomenon (while it was based on the existing books), the adaptation began to have a different tenor and “feel.” Of course, it was completely unfair and unrealistic to expect the showrunners to write scripts from scratch in a compressed time frame that could measure up to the author’s standards and live up to his readers’ expectations.
Besides: If GRRM himself has not been able to build the “connective tissue” in 8 years and counting, and for whatever reasons has not been able to tie up his story lines in logical ways; fire the “guns” he’d loaded early on; and craft satisfying resolutions to the mysteries he’d set up, why should the showrunners be expected to do all of that on their own? (One reviewer has suggested that trying to hew the show‘s conclusion to GRRM’s pre-determined ending actually handicapped the showrunners: Since their portrayals of the characters had evolved and their story lines had diverged since passing the books, some viewers perceived the final two seasons as forcing the characters to make unjustifiable inexplicable decisions and take inexplicable actions, and some plot lines seemed focused on hitting “checkpoints,” rather than letting the story proceed organically and allowing the characters to behave consistent with their established personalities.)
That GRRM could only impart to the showrunners the ultimate destination(s) in broad strokes, suggests to me that he has not even begun to figure out how to conclude his saga. Even worse (and this is pure speculation on my part), I have to wonder whether the showrunners were expecting some kind of outline from GRRM to guide them after passing the books, but he did not or could not provide even that – which might explain why the showrunners found themselves forced to resort to sci-fi devices and stale tropes (like the “mothership” solution to defeating invading aliens): they simply didn’t have enough time or advance warning to be able formulate other, more credible solutions.
• Often, they relied on their own instincts, e.g., “subverting“ expectations with “surprise” twists like choosing Arya to kill NK because everyone expected Jon (or Bran) to be involved in the culmination of “their” storyline – whereas Arya had nothing to do with the WWs or AotD up until Mel’s tortured reconfiguring of her “brown eyes, blue eyes and green eyes” line from S3. That made for a fist-pump, crowd-pleasing moment for the casual fandom, and a signature moment for a fan favorite character. However, it was not the kind of
“subversion” that drew in fans of the books and show. Thwarting audience expectations for the sake of surprise is not the kind of “subversion” or earned twist that an invested audience appreciates. I’ve often seen an “earned twist“ described by the reaction: “Damn! I did not see that coming but looking back I should have seen that coming.” (It is not the same as “WTF?” or “Well that came out of left field” or “F*cking fan service” or “Now that’s what I call a Douche ex machina”)
Still, I attribute the death of earned twists to the guy with the expertise in setting them up and executing them.
While I’m an unabashed Arya fanboy, even I came away feeling like Jon had been robbed of the denouement of his entire storyline – one that had been carefully developed since S1. Again, this was the showrunners’ choice. They said it “just didn’t feel right” to have Jon take out NK because it was expected. Whether that was a narratively defensible justification to bench Jon Snow with the game on the line and bring in Arya from the bullpen to nail down the win, and whether or not that scene “worked,” I cannot fathom that GRRM would have tried to pull off such a last-minute switcheroo solely to thwart fans’ expectations. Nor do I believe GRRM would elide Jon from the climax of his central storyline. (Ducking out from behind a rock to yell at undead Viserion, and ducking behind the rock again? Hardly a compelling role for Jon, especially after his rousing speech at Hardhome and his many face-offs with wights, WWs and NK throughout the first seven seasons.)
I do not blame the showrunners for this. Their comments made it clear that the manner and means of ending the WW threat had been left up to them; they chose Arya. GRRM has apparently not yet written anything addressing the WW vs. humankind “great war,” let alone the way this final existential conflict will be resolved.
While I may surmise from my tinfoil extrapolation of books-based “clues” in S1-S6 that GRRM likely intends for the combined brainpower of Bran and Sam to turn the tide (rather than brute force or a VS-wielding ninja), GRRM probably has not tied these clues together yet, and therefore couldn’t even give the showrunners a rough idea how Sam + Bran will come up with the solution to thwarting the AotD. As a result, the showrunners relegated Bran to the role of benchwarmer and Sam to an ineffectual fighter – rather than saviors of humanity – during “The Long Night.”
Sam’s extensive research, and his decision to drop out of the Citadel because Jon “needed” his help at WF, amounted to naught. Similarly, Bran’s super warging and supergreenseeing powers, and his urgency to develop those powers as indispensable to defeating the WWs (not to mention the sacrifices of Hodor, Jojen, Leaf, Summer, et al. because Bran’s survival was supposedly so critical), amounted to nothing. Like Jon’s resurrection, these books-based set-ups went nowhere on the show.
(Bran was merely a “memories“ repository? That’s it? No way. And surely his “training,” his compatriots’ sacrifices, and his 3ER 2.0 superpowers could not have been for the purpose of ensuring he’d become king at the end. If that were his objective all along, then “Bran the Broken” is the quintessential Machiavellian villain – Meera should’ve left him behind instead of dragging his sorry ass back to WF, and Jon should’ve assassinated Evil King Bran along with Mad Queen Dany.)
I cannot envision GRRM building up Sam as an intellectual powerhouse and traveling to WF because Jon “needed” him, only to have him abandon his research and flail at wights instead of providing any valuable insights. Nor can I envision GRRM building up Bran and his superpowers as keys to humanity’s survival, only to have him sit around and parrot other characters’ catchphrases and then sit around and do nothing during the WWs assault on WF while even more people sacrifice themselves protecting him; I can’t fathom that GRRM intends to cast Bran as the WWs primary target just because they want to wipe his hard drive of “memories.” No. There had to be more to it.
Regrettably, after the Hodor/Hold the Door reveal, GRRM hasn’t gotten around to formulating the reasons why 3ER fka Bran will be critically important in humanity’s fight against extinction – and so GRRM had nothing to impart to the showrunners when they were scripting S7 and S8. That’s the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for reducing Bran to a GPS device in a half-cocked “bait” plan: a scheme that made no sense to begin with, and was about to fail spectacularly until Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess beamed down to NK’s coordinates and materialized just in time to shank him using her nifty dagger flip. (Why NK had a bug up his ass for Bran, and why NK would even come anywhere near a potential trap especially when an errant DG tipped arrow or a single blow from a VS weapon could annihilate his entire army, left me confounded. l’ll chalk up these open-ended questions to GRRM’s failure to supply the showrunners with the big payoff to Bran’s transformation into 3ER 2.0. I’ll also assume he has not begun to address, even tentatively, how the WW threat will materialize and (presumably) be neutralized in the books.)
Bottom line: If there were shortcomings in S7 and S8, GRRM should shoulder some or most of the blame. Benioff and Weiss, two relative neophytes to scripting and producing a TV show, had expected to adapt GRRM’s novels. Instead, midway through the series, they suddenly found themselves at the helm of a juggernaut – HBO’s flagship TV series – without even a rudimentary map from the creator of the source material to guide them the rest of the way. Without a template from GRRM to tie up his loose threads and complete his intricate yet unfinished storylines, it’s not surprising that they jettisoned those incomplete story lines, and opted for expedient, simplified versions instead of trying to extrapolate whatever reveals and solutions that GRRM may have intended. If the details and mechanics of his own reveals and resolutions have eluded GRRM for going on 9 years, the showrunners can’t really be faulted for failing to do his heavy lifting for him, can they?
• Benioff and Weiss had once mentioned in an interview that after a certain point they stopped checking out internet fan theories and critiques, since there were always factions that would criticize whatever they did. Arguably, there were many ardent fans who’d studied the books and posted intelligent, canon-based theories about the trajectories of GRRM’s stories and their probable resolutions. I’ve read many such well-reasoned theories here on wotw. I’ve been amazed that commenters here have gotten into GRRM’s “mindset,“ pulled together his disparate storylines, and predicted how his characters will act, react, and interact. (They’ve also pointed out the fallacies of certain proposed scenarios.) I will say that in many respects some commenters here seem to have a better handle on the source material and show! canon than the showrunners themselves.
In hindsight, maybe it would not have been so terrible if GRRM had checked out intelligent commentary by his audience – not to change his story to trick those who figured out his riddles (he’s said that’s a no-no), but to give him inspiration to forge ahead with his writing. [Shout-out to Kevin1989, who’s probably covered every permutation and combination of potential books’ storylines; to Arianacandle, Pigeon, Efi, Mr. D, Tron, Mango, (and so many others whose names I’m forgetting; sorry), who have encyclopedic knowledge of book text and show dialogue, and are able to forecast
with logical precision where characters can likely end up and how storylines will likely unspool based on foreshadowings, embedded “clues,” and established behaviors and motivations.]
Perhaps the showrunners could also have benefitted from fresh eyes and fresh ideas.
Would it be impertinent for me to suggest, as I have before, that
– (1) The two showrunners unwittingly isolated themselves in an echo chamber? (Who can blame them. Accolades and awards reinforced that they must have been doing something right); and
– (2) Sheer physical and mental exhaustion after ten years, coupled with the ever-growing responsibilities of overseeing a massive production, may have sapped some of their creative energies, such that it had to become difficult to continue to bring their “A Game” after 50 or 60 episodes; and
– (3) The absence of a traditional, fully-staffed writers’ room limited the availability of constructive feedback and the infusion of diverse perspectives and fresh ideas; nobody can claim a monopoly on ingenuity and insight; and
– (4) Unintended consequences of exhaustion and working in a bubble might have contributed to: over-reliance on actors’ facial expressions rather than spoken words to convey emotions [e.g., lots of S8 scenes consisted of Tyrion or Jon walking around with distressed looks for several minutes without saying a word]; attempted callbacks coming off as recycled dialogue; abrupt cutaways and presumptive imparting of information offscreen that diluted scenes’ emotional resonance [e.g., omitting the Jon/Aegon parentage reveal to his sisters, and any reaction by Jon to the upending of his “I’m just a bastard” defining self-image]; redundant “jokes” that were funny at first but fell flat upon repetition [e.g., Tyrion’s thrice-told, punchline-less jackass & honeycomb story; the incessant “c*ck,” “c*ckless” quips that after a while seemed like fishing for cheap laughs]; stripping away context in the expectation that the audience could fill in the blanks; the inevitable “short-changing” of certain characters and plot lines in the abridged final season in order to focus on one or two characters’ fates [e.g., Dany’s descent into lunacy], and conversely, diverting screen time to extraneous scenes [e.g., Euron fighting Jaime because… reasons; Cersei drinking wine and staring out from her balcony; and conspicuously extended scenes of grimacing while walking around]; and
– (5) Downgrading certain assertive, first tier protagonists to subservient second-tier side characters [e.g., neutered Jon “she’s my queen” Snow looking befuddled most of the time]; and
– (6) Odd behavior and inexplicable actions functioning more to manufacture tension or drama to move the plot along rather than conforming with natural behavior and logical actions [e.g., Sansa snarking at Dany instead of using her charm to ingratiate herself to her; Arya telling Jon that Sansa was “the smartest person I’ve ever met” (with nothing to support that), apparently to promote the “we don’t like your girlfriend” theme but detracting terribly from what should have been a tender, evocative scene: Arya’s long-awaited reunion with Jon; and Mr. Self-Preservation “I keep paddling” Varys committing treason out in the open, after going from “I choose you,” Dany to “I’m gonna poison you” because… because why exactly?]
– (7) Working in the two-man “bubble” or echo chamber was probably efficient and effective when adapting text from the books. I suspect the dynamics and demands were quite different when they had to start creating story lines and drafting dialogue.
In particular, I’ve always felt that with rare exceptions, to construct credible, natural sounding dialogue for a character, it helps to have a writer whose life experiences approximate those of the character. For example, when scripting a conversation between two sisters it’s be a good idea to have the “voices” of a woman or women who grew up with sisters.*
GRRM says he’s able to inhabit each of his characters when he’s writing for that character. I’ll take him at his word. I still think that as a general rule it’s a good idea to draw on life experiences of the closest real life counterpart of a fictional character. I often questioned whether the showrunners could have benefitted from an expanded team of writers for this reason.
*[Note: Additional commentary on this to follow once retrieve an article I read about composing the script for “Frozen.”]
I get it that people were acting and behaving in weird ways to create and exacerbate a confluence of isolation, ingratitude, sadness (over loved ones’ deaths), estrangement, and betrayals: predicates for the perfect storm that caused Dany to become unhinged. (Or was it the triggering of the genetic 50%-50% Targ coin flip? Or seeing the Red Keep? Or that the KL residents didn’t spontaneously overthrow Cersei and embrace Dany with open arms? Or that her boyfriend didn’t want to f*ck her? Or that since nobody loved her she’d opt to use fear to subjugate people? Or that she merely adopted King Stannis’s philosophy (“If they don’t fear you they won’t follow you”)? Or that low blood sugar from her crash diet induced a psychotic break? I’m still not sure.)
Anyway, I’ve read lots of compelling ideas here that would have organically justified the ending without burying Dany under an avalanche of “what else can we do to f*ck with Dany’s mental state?” contrivances.
My own tinfoil theory was completely off-base. I was fixated on the 1,000,000 population mentioned twice in S7e7: Tyrion to Jon as their ship approached the city, and then Jon to Cersei at the dragonpit show-and-tell. I had speculated that by the end of S8, the AotD would be about to overrun KL. With a million new recruits in the AotD, (to borrow Private Hudson’s lines from “Aliens”) that would be “Game over, man!”
Jon’s impulse would be to charge in and make a valiant attempt to defend the civilians – but Dany would overrule him and (correctly) reason that
incinerating the invading wights along with all of the KL residents was the only way to be sure the AotD didn’t exponentially multiply its forces into an unstoppable 1.1 million strong horde. (Channeling Ripley and Corporal Hicks from “Aliens,” “I say we nuke them from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”), Dany would make the harsh decisions to nuke the entire city: “It’s the only way to be sure.”
While Dany would forever be remembered as the Mad King’s daughter who burned a million people alive, her action wouldn’t be the wholly indefensible mass murder committed by a deranged lunatic who’d gone off her meds or had her genetic predisposition to madness triggered. Rather, it would have been compelled by the necessity to make a terrible choice in the kind of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” quandary that I assumed would comport with GRRM’s fictional worldview. She’d likely wind up being second-guessed, ostracized and condemned, especially by armchair quarterbacks and grieving survivors who’d excoriate her for rejecting Jon Snow’s proposal, even though it had little chance of success and the price of failure would have been worldwide extinction.
Still a tragic ending for the self-professed Breaker of Chains and Protector of the Realm, but more palatable (to me) than the female heroine of the first 81 episodes suddenly turning into the supervillain in the final two episodes.
Other commenters scenarios were better attuned to both the books and show. I enjoyed reading them. I thought they made a whole lot of sense, and abided by the letter and spirit of GRRM’s writing. Without fawning over other commenters here, let me just say that the showrunners might well have benefitted by filching some of the commenters’ ideas when formulating the story lines of the final two seasons of GoT.
As long as GRRM left them hanging, why not seek out other sources of potential scenarios when finishing the series? Emerging from their bubble and entertaining different possibilities might very well have enabled them to quell the backlash and mitigate the divisiveness that have overshadowed their achievements in the eyes of a substantial portion of the fandom. How could it have hurt? Meanwhile, the Big Kahuna, who still hasn’t given any indication that he’s made any progress in completing his story (after kneecapping the showrunners and exposing them to ridicule), gets to bask in public adulation, with just the occasional whinging by impatient book readers to interrupt his reverie. As far as I can tell he’s never expressed any contrition for letting them down, e.g., “Sorry I left you guys up Sh*t’s Creek without a paddle.”
Does anyone doubt that the showrunners would have done a bang up job adapting TWOW and ADOS if those books had been released before the show’s run was over?
(I don’t buy into his excuse that the show could have kept going for 10 – 13 seasons. I’ll bet that when 2024 rolls around the books still won’t be finished. The cast wasn’t going to put their careers on hold indefinitely. Despite HBO’s support for its cash cow, I doubt HBO could justify shelling out the mega-bucks required to pay the cast to sit around indefinitely in the hopes that Big G someday gets around to finishing his saga.)
Ackkkk! Apologies for that long-winded post. 🤢
Young Dragon,
That’s a perfectly valid opinion, it just goes to show that people consume fiction differently, there is no hard and fast rule on this (I flip flop on a case by case basis). In this case, I think that when it comes from official sources, and is professionally produced by HBO, it’s canon. The documentaries and lore videos on the DVD’s are canon, as they have been created for that purpose. It’s like Star Wars comics/books, those are canon stories, despite not being in the movies. As I mentioned up thread, we don’t always get further information, and in that case, our interpretations are everything. But that isn’t the case here, it’s a tightly run ship, this information is curated, and put out to enhance/explain the story.
You mentioned Darkstar as an example, if GRRM had said, ‘Darkstar wanted to be a badass, he was thinking XYZ’ I’d believe that, no problem, how could I contradict it? I could say that it doesn’t make sense for him to think so, but it would still be true. If he said ‘Darkstar is a badass’ well, that is his opinion, he would be asking me to perceive a character differently based on nothing. I don’t think those things are the same, are they? I don’t know, its debatable I think. Duran is still up in the air for me.
Young Dragon,
I don’t think it’s stupid for a parent to show concern for their child, I’m talking about the timing (my heart isn’t made of stone). Entering enemy territory isn’t really the best time for it, they would have been travelling for days, she was acting as if they had just set off, and she was unsure of his ability to fly. Bit late for that now Dany. They have never treated Dragonstone like enemy territory though, it’s odd, considering its close proximity to KL, that never made sense in S7 but whatever. She probably felt like she was walking into her living room and was just about to take her coat off.
As for the ships, she flew on ahead and circled back, and then chose that moment to look at Rhaegar. Why? Because she didn’t feel threatened at Dragonstone and she wasn’t expecting an attack. She was having a lovely time with her kids. Notice that she didn’t have to look around to find Euron, she didn’t change her course, she simply looked up, and there they were, right in her eyeline. After Rhaegar dies, Euron’s fleet enters the scene from between two cliffs, you can see it in the wide shot. If they were hiding behind one of them, then they really did teleport because that land mass is massive, there is no way that they moved that fast. So yes, I think my description of mind numbingly stupid is accurate, which actually works in the plots favour, since she is supposedly acting in a way that has Varys worried. That’s why D&D elaborated on that scene, to remind us that Dany wasn’t scouting the area, she felt like she was home, the scene doesn’t really work otherwise.
I have just rewatched the scene, here is the link, if other people want to watch it and point out an error, feel free, I don’t mind admitting I’m wrong, we all miss things.
Ten Bears,
Addendum to 7:43 am comment
****
(7) Working in the two-man “bubble” or echo chamber was probably efficient and effective when adapting text from the books. I suspect the dynamics and demands were quite different when they had to start creating story lines and drafting dialogue.
In particular, I’ve always felt that with rare exceptions, to construct credible, natural sounding dialogue for a character, it helps to have a writer whose life experiences approximate those of the character. For example, when scripting a conversation between two sisters it’s be a good idea to have the “voices” of a woman or women who grew up with sisters.*
****
*[Note: Additional commentary on this to follow once retrieve an article I read about composing the script for “Frozen.”]
—————
Here’s the relevant portion of the “Frozen” article I was referring to. It’s from the movie’s Wikipedia article, and describes convening a “Sisters Summit” to write the story of sisters Elsa & Anna.
_______
“….The production team then addressed the film’s problems, drafting several variations on The Snow Queen story until the characters and story felt relevant. At that stage, the first major breakthrough was the decision to rewrite the film’s protagonist, Anna (who was based on the Gerda character from The Snow Queen), as the younger sibling of Elsa, thereby effectively establishing a family dynamic between the characters. This was unusual in that relationships between sisters are rarely used as a major plot element in American animated films, with the notable exception of Disney’s Lilo & Stitch (2002).
To fully explore the unique dynamics of such relationships, Disney Animation convened a “Sister Summit,” at which women from all over the studio who grew up with sisters were asked to discuss their relationships with their sisters.
****
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_(2013_film)
————-
• I brought this up because I grew up with younger sisters and step-sisters, and decades later I remain especially close to my sister – the youngest of our siblings.
• I felt that in certain instances (e.g., in S7), the showrunners’ portrayal of the relationship between Sansa and Arya could have been aided in subtle ways by a “Sister Summit,” or the perspectives of a woman writer or writers who grew up with sisters.
• The show captured the sensibilities of the (books-based) sibling rivalry of the young sisters in S1. Despite their name-calling (👸🏻“You’re a liar!” 🕊“You’re an idiot!”), and Arya’s well-founded accusation that Sansa’s lies may well have doomed her friend Mycah, Arya conceded to Ned, “I don’t hate her. Not really.”
• Naturally, they still mocked each other…
(When Ned informs his daughters he’s sending them back to WF, Sansa protests…)
Sansa: “I can’t go! I’m supposed to marry Prince Joffrey! I love him! And I’m meant to be his queen and have his babies!
Arya: “Seven Hells.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQgLQP8mnco
(Admittedly blatant pretext to link one of my favorite Arya scenes. The shade is strong in that young padawan. 👸🏻)
• I did feel that the escalating animosity in S7 was a little off. Even if vestiges of childhood squabbles linger into adulthood, the main difference is that adult sisters are especially loyal and protective of one another when faced with outsiders’ interference. They “circle the wagons” and would not allow an untrustworthy fraudster like LF “turn sister against sister” (so long as neither sister is a total fruit loop like Aunt Lysa). They do not dredge up old transgressions. They readily hash out problems, are not evasive when confronted, and don’t speak in riddles. They’d never let suspicions fester to the point that they’d consider killing each other.
• However, I suppose they had to have both sisters act out of character in order to manufacture a “conflict.”
• I will say that Sansa’s reply to Arya on the final battlements scene in S7e7 was true to life, i.e.:
Sansa: “…. You’re the strongest person I know.”
Arya: “I believe that’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me.”
Sansa: “Well, don’t get used to it. You’re still very strange and annoying.” 😍
• It’s not my intent to criticize I’m merely following up the questions I posed, e.g., whether brainstorming sessions with different voices and perspectives might have helped fill the void left by GRRM, made it easier for the two D’s to script characters’ dialogue, and at the same time lifted some of the monumental burdens foisted on them.
• The producers of “Frozen” obviously benefited from the “Sister Summit” they convened to “explore the unique dynamics” of sister-sister relationships. I’m not sure why the GoT showrunners wouldn’t have availed themselves of similar opportunities to infuse their characters’ relationships with realistic dialogue and natural behavior.
Young Dragon,
I wish Rhaegal had died a hero’s death during the Ice Zombie Battle, rather than getting harpooned out of the sky by that goofball Euron. At least we would’ve been spared the parsing of the seven words “Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet.”
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
“…He [Bran] seemed to know Arya was coming to kill the NK, even though the Lord of Light had cleared her path to do so.”
———
Nobody saw Arya coming, except Gendry.
(I’ll see myself out.)
Ten Bears,
Given how utterly unmoved Arya appeared afterwards, it would appear Gendry didn’t, either. 😉
(Maybe he kept forging big hard things because he was compensating…?)
Ten Bears,
Ten Bears,
So, we can safely say you’re slightly less than satisfied with a few elements of the story’s conclusion? 😉
…what we see on the screen is ambiguous or unexplained…
What did we see, and who says it’s unexplained? Your examples seem to be entirely complaints about the difference between what you saw and what you might have wanted to see. As we read up-thread (at a tiresome length, for which I apologize) saying something is a dropped plot point doesn’t make it one.
Dany’s turn was well-foreshadowed and perfectly executed, at least in the view of this member of the audience. When she started torching the city, I easily accepted this as the culmination of her story, even though I had not anticipated it. It was another example of a twist which seems obvious in retrospect, like the Red and Purple Weddings, or Arya’s destruction of House Frey. (As Young Dragon noted, what the producers said about it afterwards doesn’t matter, because they already put the story on the screen.) She’d conquered slave cities where the slaves had arisen to help her liberate them. In King’s Landing, the locals had endured a long series of bad or indifferent rulers, of which Cersei was hardly the worst; when Dany came calling, they simply kept their heads down and hoped she’d not harm them. Used to adulation and help, she became enraged when they provided neither, and decided she didn’t need them anymore, either. She and her dragon were enough, a point she then demonstrated conclusively.
Mr. Self-Preservation “I keep paddling” Varys committing treason out in the open, after going from “I choose you,” Dany to “I’m gonna poison you” because… because why exactly?
Because he saw, just too late, that he’d made a bad choice. For all of his cosmopolitan experience, networks of informers, and experience court intrigue, he’d also gotten seduced by the image of an enthusiastic young woman who wanted to rule wisely. I also loved the irony of smug and self-satisfied Varys, who’d warned dim-bulb Ned about working for Robert, go out exactly the same way Ned did: scribbling ineffectual missives about The Rightful Heir to persons too far away to have any effect, whilst ineptly plotting a palace coup that gets him killed instead.
… Arya telling Jon that Sansa was “the smartest person I’ve ever met” (with nothing to support that)…
The bar was so very, very low for Arya: raised by two of the stupidest parents on Westeros, in a family of not-so-bright siblings. (Jon himself wasn’t exactly topping the Mensa rolls, either; a leader who does not notice he’s inciting his own men to murderous mutiny can’t count as all that bright.)
…in order to focus on one or two characters’ fates [e.g., Dany’s descent into lunacy]…
It’s A Song Of Ice and Fire, and she’s literally the last word there. Furthermore, almost everything in her storyline set up her final resort to despotism, which in turn sets up Jon Snow’s final conflict. Of course the end of the story will be about her and Jon; they are almost the title characters.
Sam’s extensive research, and his decision to drop out of the Citadel because Jon “needed” his help at WF, amounted to naught.
Sam brought another VS sword to the fight, and he provided an unimpeachable source of information to confirm Jon was Aegon VI Targ’. That latter point was a cornerstone of the entire story, and the root of Dany’s despotism. Once she knew she was not the legitimate ruler, the path was open to take command by “fire and blood,” which she ultimately did.
They said it “just didn’t feel right” to have Jon take out NK because it was expected.
Again, reliance on what they said is misplaced. Let’s review what we saw on screen. The NK wasn’t stupid. At Hardhome, he’d seen Jon take out a WW with one swing of a VS sword. All through The Long Night, the NK does everything he can to keep Jon away from him. Having a 1v1 sword fight between them thus would have required some Bond Villain Stupidity to suddenly afflict an antagonist who had carefully plotted each move from the very start of the story.
Furthermore, having Arya kill the NK was thematically appropriate: she was the full-blooded, true-born Stark in Winterfell, defending the North and her family from an ancient nemesis. (Didn’t she say something about not wanting to be a lady in a castle?) As for her passage through Winterfell to arrive in the Godswood, she grew up in Winterfell and knew it intimately. You may as well complain James Bond knew too much about outmaneuvering his adversaries within Skyfall.
And so what if they ret-conned Mel’s previous words? That’s how GRRM writes the story himself. It’s a little much to demand every detail be planned from the start.
If that were his objective all along, then “Bran the Broken” is the quintessential Machiavellian villain…
Are you saying GRRM intentionally hid a villain in the form of a harmless young protagonist? Why, the nerve of that author, getting us to root for a supposed hero who turns out to be a villain! Nobody could have expected!
The absence of a traditional, fully-staffed writers’ room…
The genesis of the entire story was the desire of one guy to write it all himself. Having a writers’ room is the antithesis of that.
Also, a writers’ room would have been another group for B&W to manage. I hope you understand how volunteering them for more work makes you sound really, really entitled.
Ten Bears,
Thanks for the credits TB!
My English is not enough to express how much I agree with you.
I have a minor disagreement though. I believe that after they all created this world phenomenon of seasons 1-4 they had the right to decide what to do with it.
The big kahuna decided to leave for his own reasons; as you said, since it took him a really long time to write ADWD putting it up as an excuse simply reveals that this wasn’t the true reason for his leaving. And even with his busy schedule it wouldn’t have been too much trouble to follow the story, influence it and write perhaps an episode per season. Writing an episode based on his own ideas would have taken him what, a week or so? So time wasn’t a real issue either since he wouldn’t have been obliged to get involved with the production that much (i.e. costumes, designing, special effects, that was all up to D&D, the co-producers and the directors).
So the big kahuna did his due part by handing them over the story, up till season 8. It was already obvious -and he knew- that the story was taking different routes, i.e. for Lady Stoneheart to exist Catelyn would have to be resurrected in 4.1. They went on with merging LS with Arya. They continued by merging Sansa with Jeyne Poole and Victarion with the NK, retconned Dorne completely and distributed basic story lines to the remaining characters, also by washing off the characters they decided to build the remaining story on -meaning Tyrion, Dany, Cersei.
This was their choice and as I’ve often said it was a creative choice, and much of it wasn’t even obvious before season 8. It was still feasible to achieve a major impact by sticking with Martin’s story, but their choice to make Jon Snow “in love” with Dany was a creative disaster and a betrayal to careful readers and watchers of the show, hence the global disappointment of a large part of the fandom. This not only stripped their major protagonist, the character on whom the book is built, of a real role in season 8 (Ice facing Fire, meaning Jon vs Dany and Dance of Dragons II), it also made Dany seem like a spoiled little brat who destroys her dolls because her parents won’t give her the candy she wants. Making Jon scream at a dragon pales compared to this change. They simply didn’t dare to go there (I suppose for commercial reasons).
But Martin did his due share with the producers. To drive this point home, I’ll only say that there’s foreshadow in the released chapters of WoW about the Sansa-Dany enmity and about Dany becoming redundant after the battle for Dawn; there’s also foreshadow that Jon will follow Dany South, abandoning his family. In the show they tried to show this in the feast scene (Jon is celebrated as king, Sansa leaves the table as she sees that Jon even dared to glance at Dany). And while in seasons 6 and 7 they made sure to establish Jon’s weakness for Sansa which is consistenly foreshadowed throughout five books (whatever the content of this “weakness” might be in big kahuna’s head) they didn’t dare to make it explicit in season 8. I.e., suddenly in Jon’s discussion with Tyrion in prison, Arya pops up out of nowhere, as if the character that Arya is in the show wouldn’t have been able to escape from Dany’s wrath.
This creates a series of questions: since Jon supported Dany all the way, wouldn’t he have been able to restrain her from attacking WF? And if Dany got the IT as she wanted and the North stood by her, why would she plan to attack WF in the first place? And if Jon didn’t plan to return, if keeping Dany away from WF was his motive (supposedly established through Dany’s threats against Sansa) then why did he kill her? There’s a lack of personal interest for Jon in this murder, as there is a lack of personal interest for Dany in her blasting KL and I am sure Martin won’t leave either of the two in the darkness. Stripping that personal interest for Dany made her look simply like a deranged lunatic. Stripping that personal interest from Jon made him look like an idiot who stuck to an unstable conqueror and pointlessly turned against her only after the catastrophe, annuling all his previous experiences, the lessons he’s learned and reducing his little grey cells to a bare minimum of 3. As you’ve said, for this to happen the show simply ignored seven seasons of character building.
And in the end, what comes out of it is the “choose your own ending” situation. Was Jon in love with Dany? Was he not? Is Dany a villain? Is she not? Is Bran the ultimate evil? Is he not? Will Arya return? Will she not? Will Sansa marry? Will she not?
Who knows? I bet Martin does.
Efi,
Sorry to butt in! I wanted to add some comments. I think it’s hard to say what the hold up with Martin is. My speculation is that I think he’s stuck and I think he stepped away in a genuine effort to devote more time to his writing. But then again, I also wonder if he might be turning to new projects so he can work on something new — without, perhaps, being so weighed down by the pressure, plot complexities, expectation, etc. of ASOIAF. Those plots are getting increasingly intricate. I think Martin is great at world building but bringing all these threads together is the super difficult part. I wonder if that’s where Martin is stuck.
We don’t know exactly how Martin will go forth with this story after book 5, how he’ll handle Jon and Dany’s relationship, or what that will manifest in. Ice meeting fire may not mean a second dance of dragons between Jon and Dany at all. It may mean something different. I hope so. Personally, I think it’d be pretty anticlimactic if they were just yet another pair of enemies vying for control in a sea of these very same conflicts.
But at the end of the day, the only thing we know from Martin’s ending is that Bran ends up as the king and other tidbits D&D/directors have given us that have come from Martin. There’s been nothing confirmed about Dany razing KL, Jon killing Dany, Sansa being Queen in the North, Tyrion as Hand, Jaime and Cersei dying together under bricks, etc. I suspect the story is still going in approximately this same direction based on interviews with Martin and D&D but it’s still unconfirmed.
As for why people were disappointed in season 8, watchers and readers had a variety of problems across the board. While I think the relationship between Jon and Dany had definite execution problems and many feel it was due to time constraints, these problems weren’t limited to Jon and Dany exclusively. Fans complain about a variety of things with season 8 and many are discussed in this thread. For instead, I’ve seen complaints over how they got Dany to the point where she razed a surrendered King’s Landing (but I know there are those on this board who disagree and feel it was developed).
However, from my observations, disappointment with season 8 seems to be based on a variety of factors. Of course, that’s not to say that people aren’t of varied opinion on the prospect of a relationship between Jon and Daenerys, they are! Some are for it, some are against it, others couldn’t care less, but this relationship has been speculated for 20+ years. I wouldn’t call it a betrayal to the readers or watchers.
We don’t know exactly where Martin is going to go with them or how he will handle them. “A Song of Ice and Fire” can refer to many things. In this interview, Martin provides this answer as to what ice and fire means:
At which people have come up with quite a few interpretations based on this, especially prior to season 8.
Efi,
I think Martin gave D&D everything he knew about his outline at the time but I don’t think even Martin has figured out how to get to where he wants his story to go. I think he only knows what way he wants to go. In this, I agree with Ten Bears that maybe it was up to D&D to figure out much of the connective tissue between major plot points.
Foreshadowing is tricky. It can mean different things to different people. And people have a wide variety of theories over how this will all go down in the books following the same basic plotline. I don’t know how the relationship will play out between Sansa and Daenerys in the books, I feel it can maybe go either way, but it depends on Martin’s ultimate plans for both Sansa and Daenerys and how he gets them there. We really only have the show at this point and don’t know everything Martin told D&D in their talks, only a few tidbits.
I think Jon was a protective big brother to the only sibling he had with him at the time but this wasn’t a feeling exclusive to Sansa, nor did I see that Sansa was Jon’s weakness. I mean, the reason why Jon agrees to war against Ramsay is because Ramsay had Rickon. And Jon nearly died in a suicide charge after failing to save him.
Of course, Jon loves Sansa as his sister, as one of his siblings, but he doesn’t live and die by her or her word. He’s motivated by a variety of people, including Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Dany, and the people at large — Jon was fighting the undead to save all of humanity.
Yet, Jon wasn’t prepared to act against Dany when either Tyrion or Arya bring Sansa up. Per Kit Harington, Jon didn’t make the choice to betray Dany until the very very end, when she said that nobody else would get to choose.
What foreshadowing are you referring to that illustrates Sansa is Jon’s weakness in the books? From what I saw, I think that is more the case with Arya, who Jon compromised his neutrality for when he tried to save her from Ramsay. And Arya is the sibling Jon thinks of most, who evokes the most emotion in Jon (with Robb as a close second). Jon does think of Sansa but not in the special way he thinks of Arya or even Robb. He thinks of Sansa as his sister but it’s more in the vein of “one of the family” or as one of his sisters.
Since Jon couldn’t even convince Dany to be merciful to the people in their final scene together, I don’t know about that. She truly thought her course of action via fire and blood to bring about a better world was the right action. She wished to reserve mercy for future generations. And if she thought burning Winterfell was the way to a better world, well..
The North did march to help Dany take the Iron Throne under Jon’s command. But the problem is the North wants to be independent, they don’t want to be part of the 7K — even if the king of the 7K is Bran. This creates a conflict for World Domination Dany, who views any and all dissenters as enemies to her new world.
Efi,
I don’t think this was established (Jon’s motive being to keep Dany from Winterfell because of threats to Sansa) — at least, not by the writers. And I think the reasons for Jon killing Dany were explained by the show. At the very least, Dany had just razed a surrendered city and wanted to keep it up.
As for Sansa, Jon didn’t want to betray Dany at any point, even after she voiced her comments about Sansa. And… he didn’t really have a reaction to those comments. Instead, Jon defended Dany to Sansa and Arya, he tried assuring Dany that Sansa just didn’t know her yet, and he wanted Dany, Sansa, and Arya to get to know each other.
Likewise, as I said above, Jon didn’t decide to take action against Dany when Arya and Tyrion brought Sansa up. Jon didn’t make that decision until later, when he saw Dany was resolved to further destruction to build her new world. Both of Jon’s sisters were the ultimate deciding factor in that decision but the lives of everyone else were also a factor too. Jon was forced to make a choice he didn’t want to make and it was a choice Jon seemed to regret when he said he felt killing Daenerys wasn’t right.
Well, the writers gave reasons for these motives, or at least made an effort to, and much of it had to do with the personal feelings of these characters determining their decisions. It may not work for some viewers, it may not have been executed well, but the writers did give these characters those personal motives. I think Dany’s motives underwent a shift (the Red Keep triggering Dany to burn down KL, to Dany believing she “liberated” the people, to Dany believing restarting the world from ashes is the way to a better world). Meanwhile, Jon couldn’t allow Dany to continue to wreak destruction on the world.
Plus, it may manifest differently in the books while still following the same basic plot structure. The places in between these major plot points can be better fleshed out and developed while still delivering the same bare bones of the story. It may not even happen exactly the same way, Dany’s razing of King’s Landing may be more nuanced or may happen differently. If it happens that way. People have come up with a wide variety of scenarios.
As far as writer intent goes, they did answer some of these questions (ie. Jon being in love with Dany and Dany becoming a Well-Intentioned Extremist who utilizes Utopia Justifies the Means). Personally, I doubt Bran is intended to be the ultimate evil if his kingship is to represent hope for a transition into a better world but I know many are wondering about how much Bran knew based on some of his odd comments.
As for Sansa and Arya… I think those questions are open-ended. Sansa can choose to marry if she wants. Arya may return. The show kind of made it sound like she was leaving forever but if she manages to successfully explore and chart unknown lands, why not come back to Westeros for a visit?
Adrianacandle,
The thing is, for me they did lay the groundwork for Dany becoming the ‘villian’ at the end of the series (it sure as hell wasn’t going to be Cersei). But I don’t think they set up Dany’s decision to burn KL to the ground, well they tried, I just didn’t buy it. It’s the whole, ‘they didn’t revolt against Cersei = they have chosen her over me’. Erm…. have you thought about asking one of them? Which is where FAegon comes into it, I think he’ll be King, KL will say ‘no thanks Dany, we like this Targ, marry him or go away’. With a fake Targ on the throne, she may even enter the city as a guest to discuss terms and get a feel for the people and the place. At which point I do believe that she will torch it. I think there is a good chance of her levelling Mereen, she has been pushed towards that too. That certainly would foreshadow KL, which for me, needed a real slight, not an imaginary one. If they had shown the KL populace arming themselves against her, that would have been some improvement, but they were all hiding. Also, the making it personal comment from D&D, made no sense whatsoever.
I’m convinced that FAegon’s character was split between Jon and Cersei (mostly Cersei) so where does this leave Jon? I have no idea, I know that he will kill Dany and go beyond the wall, thats it. Them falling in love seems most likely, but with another supposed Targ around, I don’t think he will need to reject her to push her over the edge. I’m not sure that he’ll be that fussed over the incest thing either to be honest. I think GRRM promised another Dance, so is it Jon vs Dany, or Jon/Dany vs FAegon, or even Jon/Dany vs Euron and the Dragon Binder?
If my theory about FAegon doesn’t happen, his inclusion in the story is unforgivable.
Adrianacandle,
About why Martin is late, I read someone (not here on another site) state an interesting take on it.
When Storm of Swords ended and he was writing Feast his first plan was a 5 year gab. But why a 5 year gab why is that so important! I think the answer is simple: For the endgame some characters need to age up to do what they need to do. My guess is that the biggest problem is Bran, Rickon and Sansa with this.
Then he found out that for other characters the age-up didn’t work, so he didn’t go with the 5 year gab. Now 2 books later the characters aged maybe half a year instead of 5 years.
Now with winds that need to set up the endgame I think he struggles with this problem, every plotpoint is set in motion and there is no time to wait 5 years now. Jon is dead and need to come back alive, the WW arriving, the dance of dragon version 2 is set up. Are those characters just waiting 5 years for other characters to grow up? No they aren’t. I think that’s the struggle, he needs to age up some characters, but other characters and storyline won’t let him.
EDIT: I mean that this is one of the problems not the only one.
Jenny,
What theory?
kevin1989,
Just that FAegon gives Cersei the boot and becomes King. If he never makes it that far, and is defeated by Dany and or Cersei, I don’t know why he exists. I shouldn’t call it my theory, I don’t think its massively popular, but it’s common enough in the fandom.
Will Dany be suitably shaken by the mere possibility of another Targ? And then in walks Jon and she loses it? Would that work? He needs to have more impact than that.
Ten Bears,
This is precisely why I have never seen an “Inside the Episode” segment of GOT or any other show, for that matter. I, personally, don’t understand the point of them, which is why I wouldn’t know anything about “Danerys forgetting the Iron Fleet” if it wasn’t plastered all over the internet. Either your interpretation matched the writers’ intent, in which case they’re telling you what you already know, or they do not match, and the writer is telling you what you don’t need to know. If you feel the writer’s didn’t put in the right amount of evidence to support their intent, them telling you won’t change anything.
I don’t blame people for mimicking the showrunners’ words, but when they try to display them as fact despite contradictory evidence presented in the actual episode, I’m going to have to strongly disagree. They’re free to interpret the scene the same as D&D, though they lack the necessary evidence to back it up.
I agree that it doesn’t have to be either/or. I have criticisms for every show, including season 8 of GOT. It wasn’t perfect, as nothing is, but I feel that all the negatives were outweighed by the positives. I don’t use the word “hater” lightly, only for those who come onto sites like this one and issues blanket criticisms against the show and has nothing thoughtful to offer.
Jenny,
Yes, I think they’d need to set up the reasoning better or have the situation be more difficult in the books, perhaps pose more of a dilemma for Dany to go through with. I agree with you that some of the groundwork has been set up — I just hope it’s a more nuanced, complex situation.
I think there are a number of ways it can go but I’m not sure which route GRRM will take. I think Jon will still be who kills Dany in the books and before that point, I think there’s a good chance they’ll fall in love, which feels like a GRRM thing to do since that’d pose some terrible choices these characters will have to make, they’d have to pick and can’t have both. Kind of like the idea of having to choose between an onion and an apple in Jon’s ADWD chapters — as he told the Mole’s Town wildlings who were being fed by the Night’s Watch, they have to pick. And I also agree that his secret lineage won’t be used to push Dany over the edge, especially since I think people would need to believe this about Jon in-universe first and that’ll be a hard story to buy for these people.
As a result, I think Young Griff may represent the Targaryen who the masses prefer in the books, especially if he’s successful at rallying Dorne as the son of Elia and building Westerosi alliances. He was raised to be the “perfect” king, is the same age as Elia’s Aegon, and has the Targaryen look. Meanwhile, those who know about Jon in the south believe he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, he has the Stark look, and there’s no documentation of a R+L=J child, much less a trueborn one. And if there was, they’d somehow need to believe Jon is that kid. I believe Young Griff has a better chance of taking on that role as the people’s choice for the throne.
As for the dance, I’m not sure if Jon will be involved — or at least not one for a throne. I think it’s very possible Jon will get distracted by a human war, and that will lead to problems with consequences of his own making, but I think a dance will likely involve Euron, perhaps Young Griff. However, there multiple ways this could go as well. I’m hoping some of the explorations of the books’ themes are present, like the human heart in conflict with itself, grappling over the idea of the right thing and what that is, and making those hard decisions in which there are sacrifices/consequences/problems with whatever choice is made.
kevin1989,
I’d agree with this since Bran, Sansa, and especially Rickon are so young still. As of AFFC/ADWD, I think Bran is 9, Sansa is 13, and Rickon is only 5. Meanwhile, Arya is a mere 11 :/
Right, I think it’s possible this may be a factor in stalling Martin, especially since five years would make a big difference for the younger characters. Instead of being 9, Bran would be 14. Sansa at 13 would look different than Sansa at 18. So perhaps without the age jump, Martin may be experiencing obstacles if some of the characters’ ages and/or emotional maturity are not progressed enough to take them to where he needs them to be.
Adrianacandle,
We seem to be on the same page, this fits in with the ending we got, but getting there will be more complicated. If Jon’s heritage isn’t there to push Dany into ‘madness’, what was it for? A question I can’t answer. His parents’ elopement started a war, did he need to be born for that to happen? I don’t think so, them running away together did the job. So what’s left? The prophecy, but apparently GRRM is too smart to fulfil a prophecy, so that leaves us with……?
My guess is that it is prophecy related, but we will never get it 100% confirmed, we’ll just be able to put the pieces together. He and Dany did essentially reenact the Nissa Nissa prophecy, as did Jaime with his hands round Cersei’s neck (very unnatural) while she cried and eventually suffocated under the Red Keep, plus Tyrion sent her down there, and that caused her death. They knew what they were doing with that, they at least paid homage to the Valonqar, underwhelming as it was.
Jenny,
I agree with that. I also think that he gets further into the story than many things. I even thinks he survive the story.
Adrianacandle,
Yes and mostly mentally not ready. I think Arya even when younger than Sansa, is further mentally in her life than Sansa, I think Arya could be ready in a year or 2. Sansa I think not because her path is differently.
Jenny,
I agree I think it’s prophecy related. Both Starks and Targs have some magical power. I think combining them you could wield Dawn (lightbringer)
Jenny,
I think the importance of R+L=J will likely have something to do with the more mystical forces in this world rather than the political. There can still be a twist but I think there’s something about combining Stark and Targaryen (ice and fire) which could allow Jon a crucial something to provide an important factor in beating back the Long Night. This may have been part of Rhaegar’s reason for taking off with Lyanna — it plunged the realm into civil war, Rhaegar probably knew there was a good chance of that happening since he was leaving his wife and two kids behind to elope with a betrothed girl, but he did it anyway. GRRM called Rhaegar a lovestruck prince but there may have been an additional motivation: Rhaegar may have also been willing to take all of this risk if he thought it was going to save the world and believed this was how.
Kevin had me wondering what if this sacrifice (AA/NN) doesn’t beat back this threat forever? What if this AA/NN only powers the magic in the Wall for a finite amount of time and that’s why the Others are on the move now, because time’s up? That’s totally tinfoil-y but I think it’s an example of a twist?
But I think we need to know more about the Others too.
I don’t know if you’ve seen this but Alt Shift X did a good video on House Dayne, its associated mysteries, how it may tie into R+L=J, and how some of this might possibly come to fruition. Jon and Dany both have Dayne blood and there’s a lot of mystery around the Dayne sword, Dawn.
I think both have been exposed to different horrors and they’re both forced away from their family but I think mentally, yeah, Sansa is still very much a child. She’s had to live with her own different set of horrors (being held hostage, forcibly married, used as a pawn) while Arya has been forced to grow in different ways because she’s had to go on the run and survive the elements, exposed to the external threats of making it through a wartorn Westeros as a 9-11 year old nobleborn girl. Sansa seems to hold onto some of her fairy tales and fantasies as a coping mechanism while Arya seems to rely on her developing combat skills and need for revenge.
There’s probably more that I’m missing but yeah, I think Sansa is mentally still quite young.
I think there was definitely consolidation of storylines to limit the already large amount of characters in the television show, which D&D and GRRM have both acknowledged, as I recall. However, I don’t think this indicates D&D came up with most of the show’s story from season 6 onward though. All three have likewise said there will be differences (primarily stories for the secondary characters) but they intended to align the broad strokes between stories.
D&D (Vanity Fair, March 2015):
D&D (Vanity Fair, March 2014):
GRRM (Vanity Fair, March 2014):
GRRM (60 Minutes, April 2019):
Yes, you’re right that Sansa’s story was definitely merged with Jeyne Poole’s. I think she’s going to stay in the Vale for some time learning under Littlefinger in the books (but that’s pure speculation on my part) and Dorne certainly had adaptational problems. However, I don’t think Arya’s story was merged with Lady Stoneheart’s. Lady Stoneheart is an undead character who has none of her compassion or humanity left, determined to seek vengeance. Arya, too, was determined to seek vengeance but was already on this quest (in both the books and show) prior to the Red Wedding — and she continued it afterward in both the books and show. Unlike LSH, Arya still possesses what makes her Arya and has humanity in her. She’s not a different character vis a vis Catelyn vs LSH. LSH isn’t really Catelyn anymore.
I don’t think Victarion is a book stand-in for the Night King since Victarion has had nothing to do with the Others or events beyond the Wall. In the show, since there is no Night King in the books, I think the Night King served as kind of shorthand or figurehead for the Others in the show — to give this threat a singular face and a name to target and make this story easier to adapt (and perhaps resolve). It also gave the show more opportunities for televised battle sequences. I think the threat of the Others will be dealt with differently in the books but it’s not that different of a story route from the books. They’re still a threat to all of humanity, they still raise the dead, this threat still prompts Jon to start uniting various factions together in order to defend the living, they’re still coming from far beyond the Wall with mysterious origins.
I’d dispute they built the remaining story on Tyrion, Dany, and Cersei. Cersei had very limited screentime in seasons 7 and 8 while Jon, the Starks, Jaime, Theon, etc. certainly had roles to play between seasons 6-8. I’ve voiced my thoughts on what I wished was different, I agree with some of the criticisms here on these roles, and it’s my personal wish that they had explored the feelings of all these characters more deeply in season 8. But that’s only my personal viewpoint (for those who disagree and enjoyed their roles in the show). Interestingly, I’ve also seen people argue the opposite, feeling the story was built too much on the Starks and didn’t explore other characters enough. I don’t know if I’d agree with that either though. I wish there was more exploration into the feelings of all of the characters, including the Starks, Dany, Jon, Cersei, Jaime, etc. about various issues. But that’s only what I personally wanted since I think that would add to the development.
Adrianacandle,
I didn’t say the story was different. I said the story was the same. It comes from the books and there’s foreshadow for it (some of it at least).
However, I do believe it was built on Tyrion, Dany and Cersei.
Cersei had enough time in season 7; she had just blown up the sept; she went open with her affair with Jamie; she called the Iron Bank for a loan; got herself an ally; bought herself an army; confronted Dany in the battlefield for the first time; and accepted to negotiate. This entire storyline was dropped in season 8 and Cersei was reduced to a petty little woman drinking wine on a balcony. She didn’t do anything to break up the North-Dany alliance, she just sat there and waited. Which is unlike show Cersei.
As for Arya, she took the LSH role of killing the Freys. This is LSH task. LSH killing a Frey on his knees is one of Bran’s first visions when he advances his 3ER “education”. I do not know how this will play out in the books but giving that role to Arya made her look like a cold-blooded killer (emotionally crushing as that scene was-both of them actually, two of the most powerful scenes in GoT) when in the books she’s compassionate and mingles with the smallfolk and adapts to the environment around her much more easily. I am not sure that Arya in the books will be that unflinching emotionless girl who’ll leave her family that easily without a prospect to return.
Jenny,
The dragon riders must be PoVs. These are Dany, Jon, Victarion and Euron.
Euron being stuck in Westeros, I don’t think he qualifies. He’s rather bound to become Cersei’s ally once she’s ousted from the throne by YG.
Also, Jon and Victarion have their hands burned.
Efi,
I agree with some of this but this applies to other characters who aren’t Cersei, Tyrion, and Dany — especially in season 7. Jon and the Starks had a greater role than Cersei in season 8. You can list the actions and roles they performed in those last two seasons, actions that had major impacts on the story.
I know Cersei was supposed to have a miscarriage in season 7 and this was filmed was cut. However, I don’t know what you mean by an entire storyline being dropped regarding Cersei’s actions in season 7? In season 8, we find out that Cersei was successful in getting the Golden Company as allies, her treachery against the Targaryen-Stark forces was revealed (when she pretended to agree to the truce in season 7 and help in the Great War), she and Euron were lying in wait to attack Dany when Dany left the North. Yet, because I do agree Cersei’s role was reduced quite a bit in season 8, I don’t know how Cersei was one of the characters who D&D chose to build the story on.
Well, LSH kills anyone she comes across who is associated with the Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters — but Arya didn’t do that. Arya didn’t kill anyone and everyone associated with these families (ie. the Lannister soldiers she met in the woods, Jaime, Tyrion, etc. aren’t killed by Arya). Instead, Arya wiped out the male members of House Frey, which isn’t something LSH has done. Maybe that is something LSH will do in the books, we don’t know until they come out.
I don’t think Arya in the show is emotionless. She still has quite a bit of her compassion. For example, she refuses the FM’s order to kill Lady Crane and when Dany was razing King’s Landing, socializes with Lannister soldiers she happens upon in the woods, she took on the role to try and help the smallfolk while Dany was razng King’s Landing. I’m not sure how Arya had trouble adapting to her changing environments in the show?
In the books, Arya does have her humanity with her still but she is also on a dark path in the books and also performs some cold-blooded killings in the book as well.
I think there needed to be a scene or two showing how Arya came to the decision to apparently leave Winterfell forever when she left for King’s Landing but I do think there’s some sense in Arya wanting to leave Westeros — maybe forever — in the end. Westeros is a land that represents a lot of pain for her and she wants a new task. She doesn’t really have a role in Winterfell or Westeros. I think the show’s idea that Arya is leaving forever is a bit much but the books may flesh out this decision more.
Adrianacandle,
“However, from my observations, disappointment with season 8 seems to be based on a variety of factors.”
Agreed. However, being several years older than you, I have to say that when the main story is flawed (Jon-Dany) and people feel hollow about it, then the smallest thing comes under scrutiny. It’s basic human reaction, really. If they had managed to deliver that in a manner emotionally satisfying for the viewers then no one would devote any time to the minor things or even the larger things surrounding the main story.
The little flaws would be forgiven, i.e. Jon’s yelling at the undead dragon. One wouldn’t mind that had the Jon-Dany romance been properly built and destroyed.
For my own information, is there anything saying that a dragon rider must be a POV character?
We don’t really know how Euron’s story will go in the books. He’s a secondary character so his story might be somewhat different or rather, involve more. Euron might very well still ally with Cersei but given all the theories that pose Euron as a dragonrider, it’s possible he may become a dragonrider too. He’s going after Dany in the books and has an interest in her dragons so there’s some foundation for this to happen.
Efi,
Oooooh, I don’t know if that’s true 😉 In my experience with fandom in general, especially passionate fandoms like what GoT and ASOIAF have inspired, people can and will complain if they don’t like a particular plot point, storyline, characterization, relationship or if they feel there are problems with these things.
For example, there were people salivating for a Jon vs. Night King one on one battle to the death — and uh, they didn’t get it… So even if Jon-Dany had no problems whatsoever in its development, I think there still would definitely be soreness over how the story with the Night King and the White Walkers was handled in season 8 and resolved. Ditto with how the story with Dark Dany was executed (or even just the idea that Dany turned around and razed King’s Landing) and characterizations with some of the characters — particularly since people watch this story for different characters and storylines.
However, Jon-Dany wasn’t the only main storyline. The Night King was another, Dany going dark, R+L=J, even the story with the Stark family. People felt problems existed with all of these stories and were disappointed by the execution.
And I do agree there were problems with the execution but these weren’t limited to Jon and Dany, people found problems with the development and exploration of many of the relationships between main characters in the latter seasons (eg. the relationship between Sansa and Arya, Jon and Arya, how the Starks feel about R+L=J, Jaime and Brienne). I think some of that was due to time constraints and things like having some conversations developing these relationships happening off-screen rather than on :/ Or even limitations of the television medium vs. the books because unless we have VOs, we’re unable to access characters’ thoughts as easily as we can when stories are written down from the POVs of characters. So different approaches are needed in TV.
Adrianacandle,
Gah! Typo!
* For example, she refuses the FM’s order to kill Lady Crane and socializes with Lannister soldiers she happens upon in the woods, she took on the role to try and help the smallfolk while Dany was razing King’s Landing.
(Removed “when Dany was razing King’s Landing” piece preceding “socializes with Lannister soldiers she happens upon in the woods[…]” When reorganizing my sentence structure, I forgot to delete that piece D:)
* I know Cersei was supposed to have a miscarriage in season 7 and this was filmed but cut.
Efi,
Wanted to add that as of this comment, we’ve reached 540 comments. Wow O_O
Adrianacandle,
Morning!
I see there’s lots of Arya-centric commentary for me to catch up on … as soon as I chug down my coffee. ☕️☕️☕️☕️🍶
First, thank you for not calling me out on my cheap pun. (“Nobody saw Arya coming. Except Gendry.”) And you’re right about that follow up scene of Gendry and Arya at the very end of S8e2:
When a guy’s laying there sound asleep like a beached whale, while his bedmate is wide awake with a sullen look on her face, that is not a good sign.
“Utterly unmoved” is right. And Arya had even interviewed Gendry in advance about his credentials to be sure he’d be able to get the job done. I guess Gendry wasn’t a
Apparently, Gendry knew nothing about “the Lord’s Kiss” (described at 2:45 and 4:00 of John Bradley’s reading of the book! cave scene, below).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_psXppu60Y
——-
Ten Bears,
Good morning!
On that note (sexual savantism), what did Podrick do to those girls where they let him go without paying? 🙂
Bronn: Maybe they’re trying to curry some favor with the new Master of Coin.
Tyrion: Have you ever known a whore to turn down gold? They were happy enough to take it when I gave it to them.
Bronn (to Pod): What did you tell them?
Pod: I didn’t tell them anything.
Tyrion: What did you do to them?
Pod: Lots of things.
Tyrion: And they seemed to like these things?
Pod: Yes, my lord.
Bronn: Of course they seemed to like it. They’re paid to seem to like it.
Tyrion: Only they weren’t paid.
Bronn: What are you saying? These ladies enjoyed him so much, they gave him the time for free?
Tyrion: Is that what you’re telling us? Sit down, Podrick. We’re going to need details. Copious details.
Adrianacandle,
He probably sang to them. 😉
Efi,
He is a very good singer… and singing does involve the… tongue…
I seem to have a bit of a fever, that’s kind of weird…
😉
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
To: Tensor the Mage, Whose Ever-Evolving Screen Name Quarantines His Replies in Moderation Purgatory
True, I was not thrilled with all aspects of Seasons 7 and 8. However, what I was trying to convey – without much success, it seems – was that if there were glitches and misfires in the final seasons, GRRM should shoulder much of the blame for leaving the showrunners in the lurch.
After all, in adapting the books to screen the showrunners had included many of GRRM’s side stories, set-ups and foreshadowings, in anticipation of having source material to form
“connective tissue” and ultimate payoffs.
As I tried to emphasize, it was my rank speculation that when the time came for the show to script the post-books narratives,
GRRM couldn’t even supply the showrunners with a general idea how he would proceed from where he’d left off the story in the books, to get to the final destinations he had already already shared.
As a result, in a severely abbreviated, non-extendable time frame, the showrunners unexpectedly found themselves forced to script from scratch the entire Act III of the saga: a task that had eluded GRRM himself for the last 8 years and counting.
And unlike the (lackadaisical? perfectionist? dilatory?) author, the showrunners did not have the luxury of trashing and re-writing scenes and storylines that seemed promising in concept, but didn’t translate well once pen was put to paper.
I recognize there are many fans who commend “Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss” for their “brilliant” work. In the perception of those fans, every facet of S7 and S8 functioned perfectly. That’s fine. Far be it for me to condemn anyone else’s opinion.
I just didn’t feel that the show was running on all cylinders after exhausting the available source material. It had a different “feel.” I also confess that my subjective preference for “high thread count,” dialogue-rich, interpersonal character moments could limit my ability to appreciate “fast-paced” sequences, and scenes that rely exclusively on visuals rather than words to tell the story.
(As one of the directors (?) had acknowledged, it’s tricky to rely on actors’ facial expressions to convey their characters’ thoughts and emotions: There’s a risk that members of the audience won’t be attuned to visual cues, or could misinterpret what they’re seeing. I’m probably one of those members of the audience.)
Anyway, my rambling comment (to which you replied), was not intended to rehash grievances over S8. I know it may have come off that way. It was supposed to be an attempt to explain why I thought some of those grievances should be directed at the author rather than the showrunners.
The showrunners and GRRM have been diplomatic and civil to each other in public. (And why not? The show was a massive success – a pop culture phenomenon; it made George a superstar.) Still, I have no doubt that someday we’ll get the full story of how Benioff and Weiss succeeded in filming an unfilmable literary work – only to get the rug pulled out from under them by an author who could not or would not finish what he’d started. If I were in their shoes, I’d be pretty pissed off that after signing on to adapt books to film – and then doing a bang-up job of it – the author’s indifference forced me to do his own job for him, and then face the backlash from fans who were dissatisfied with the result.
It was a no-win situation for the showrunners and a no-lose proposition for the Big Kahuna. I think I had once suggested (sarcastically) before S7 or S8 that the reception of the show’s conclusion would play out in one of two ways:
Fandom: “That was f*cking awesome!”
GRRM: “Exactly how I told it to Dave and Dan.”
– or –
Fandom: “That f*cking sucked!”
GRRM: “ Hey, don’t look at me.”
Adrianacandle,
Back at you!
Dilemma: It’s a cold and crisp Sunday morning. (Well, at least where I am 68 degrees is considered sweater weather.) I had planned to go in to work today. I’ve got my color-coordinated neon file folders and multi-colored fluorescent pens waiting at the front door.
Do I:
(a) Drag my lazy ass out of bed, get cleaned up, and start slogging through boring work?
(b) Stay in bed under the covers, and read and reply to comments?
Ten Bears,
I’d urge (a)! But that’d make me a hypocrite since my floors are still un-vacuumed, my dishwasher is full, my bathrooms are still uncleaned, part of me thinks my laundry will walk itself to the washing machine, and my .ai files still have a ton of erroneous superfluous and unjoined anchor points ;D
I laughed at your pun XD But because I was super sleepy at the time, I promptly fell asleep and forgot to share my reaction via emoji 😩
So here’s my belated reaction: 😂
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
“…Because he [Varys] saw, just too late, that he’d made a bad choice. For all of his cosmopolitan experience, networks of informers, and experience court intrigue, he’d also gotten seduced by the image of an enthusiastic young woman who wanted to rule wisely.”
Okay, I just didn’t see how at that juncture Varys could conclude he’d make a “bad choice” – in fact, a choice that was so bad it compelled him to assassinate the monarch to whom he’d sworn loyalty. I also did not understand how he could be so confident that Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryean would be a better option.
At the time of Varys’s betrayal, how exactly in his mind had Dany undermined all of her previous beneficent (and heroic) deeds and contradicted her professed intentions to be a better ruler than the current one?
My only gripe was that without showing how Cersei’s rule was causing genuine suffering and misery for the people, the death and destruction caused by an invasion even by an altruistic would-be ruler would not be worth it to the average person. But Varys surely had to know that ousting one monarch by force in favor of a better one couldn’t be accomplished without bloodshed. (Wasn’t he the one who promised Olenna “fire and blood” to seek vengeance and justice against Cersei if the Tyrells joined Team Dany?)
Also, how would getting rid of Dany before Cersei was ousted help Jon/Aegon or anyone else take over? How and why would Jon and his depleted forces defeat the defenders of KL? (Varys was never shown to have reasoned “Who needs dragons, navies and armies? Jon’s got a NightKingslayer ninja assassin baby sister to take out Cersei. Piece of cake.”.) I may have missed something: Did Varys assume the people would spontaneously revolt against Cersei and flock to Jon Snow if Dany was out of the way? Did Varys assume the Unsullied, regenerated Dothraki, and Dany’s allies would support Jon, or just bugger off once Dany was eliminated?
In any event, Dany explictly promised Varys (and Varys expressly agreed) that she’d go full-on Dracarys if he ever betrayed her. He betrayed her. Why he did so prematurely and with so little regard for his own well-being is another matter.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
“As Young Dragon noted, what the producers said about it afterwards doesn’t matter, because they already put the story on the screen.”
I have trouble accepting that premise.
If the producers themselves articulate the intended meaning of what they’ve put “on the screen,” I don’t see how the viewers should assume they can simply ignore that and come up with their own interpretations.
(Of course, if the showrunners’ ex post facto explanations don’t align with what the viewer saw portrayed onscreen, the viewer should infer that the showrunners did not succeed in conveying their intentions – not that the showrunners actually did succeed but then later double-crossed themselves.)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
[TB] “Arya telling Jon that Sansa was “the smartest person I’ve ever met” (with nothing to support that)…“
”The bar was so very, very low for Arya: raised by two of the stupidest parents on Westeros, in a family of not-so-bright siblings. (Jon himself wasn’t exactly topping the Mensa rolls, either; a leader who does not notice he’s inciting his own men to murderous mutiny can’t count as all that bright.)“
Ha ha ha! Very good! 🤣😅 Yes, you’re right. The threshold for “smart” was not very high.
Even so, Arya had never been reluctant to call out those she perceived to be intellectually-challenged. Sandor’s admission that he had not helped himself to financial aid from Joffrey before leaving KL prompted her rebuke: “You’re not very smart, are you?” 🙂 When Gendry asked her, ”You think I’m as stupid as the rest of them?”, she replied: “Stupider.”
Arya had not been shown to be a dummy. She was a quick thinker. She saved Gendry’s life by convincing Lorch and the Gold Cloaks posse that the corpse next to the bull’s head helmet was “the bastard boy” they were looking for. She parlayed the third death owed by Jaqen into 2+ deaths and a get out of jail free card for herself and her friends, by naming Jaqen. (“A man can go kill himself.” 😁)
Arya was not shown to be a bad judge of intelligence – whether her own or anyone else’s.
Tywin Lannister, no slouch in the mental aptitude department, recognized her innate intelligence [not verbatim]:
Tywin: “Has anyone ever told you you’re too smart for your own good?
Arya: “Yes.”
Tywin: “Good.”
So, Arya was not established to be some easily-impressed, gullible simpleton. For her to spontaneously declare Sansa “the smartest person I’ve ever met” required some kind of on-screen demonstration of Sansa’s unmatched intellectual prowess – or at least a passing reference to some kind of off-screen action by Sansa that convinced her little sister that the girl she’d once derided as a simple-minded, short-sighted dunce (evoking the reaction, “Seven hells!” that caused their own father to stifle a laugh) had morphed into some kind of cerebral powerhouse.
(Why was that line of dialogue put in Arya’s mouth anyway? Was it shorthand for “Sansa hates your girlfriend and therefore I hate her too because Sansa’s so smart she must be right”? For me, none of the xenophobic dialogue in that scene was compelling or logical.)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
[TB]: “Sam’s extensive research, and his decision to drop out of the Citadel because Jon “needed” his help at WF, amounted to naught.“
”Sam brought another VS sword to the fight, and he provided an unimpeachable source of information to confirm Jon was Aegon VI Targ’. That latter point was a cornerstone of the entire story, and the root of Dany’s despotism. Once she knew she was not the legitimate ruler, the path was open to take command by “fire and blood,” which she ultimately did.”
– Sam’s additional VS sword didn’t make a difference. It didn’t smite any WWs, and was not a reason why Sam dropped out of school or believed Jon urgently needed his help. Sam could have sent Heartsbane to WF via airmail, carried by two laden swallows.
– Second-hand scribblings in a dead septon’s diary wasn’t an “unimpeachable source,” and Sam did NOT know that the factoid meant Jon was “Aegon VI Targ” when he (Sam) decided to leave the Citadel. At that point, all that Gilly and Sam had learned was that Prince Rhaegar had annulled his first marriage and wed Lyanna Stark. They knew nothing about a child born of that union. They had no inkling Jon Snow might have any connection to Rhaegar Targaryean. None of that came out until Sam was already in WF and Bran disclosed to him that Jon was the product of the union between R + L. Sam’s tidbit about the annulment and remarriage only served to correct Bran the Oblivious’s assumption that Jon was (still) a bastard.
– Jon did not “need“ Sam’s help. Nothing Sam brought with him helped Jon – certainly nothing in the books he’d read or the books he stole. Sam never disclosed why Jon needed his help, and Sam did nothing to help Jon. Sam was anything but an asset on the battlefield. (He should have joined Gilly and Sam in the crypts. Maybe Sam could have brainstormed with Tyrion, and helped the imp recapture his intelligence. As it was, none of the book smart or psychically enhanced characters contributed anything to the defense of WF or the defeat of the AotD.)
– To be fair, I should amend what I wrote to state that Sam’s extensive research and decision to leave the Citadel to help Jon amounted to nothing, except to contribute one additional factoid out of many that indirectly led to the undermining of Dany’s claim to be the heir to the throne, which in turn was one of many factors that culminated in Dany going off the deep end.
None of these consequences were foreseen by
Sam when he concluded Jon needed his help. Nothing in the show ever revealed how exactly Sam intended to “help” Jon. After convincing Jon in S5 to let him go to the Citadel to train to be CB’s Maester and look for information that might help in defending against the AotD, nothing in the show ever revealed why Sam felt it was imperative to abandon those objectives and head off to WF. (That Sam may have been frustrated when the Citadel maesters dismissed out of hand Bran’s warning about the AotD did not explain why leaving the Citadel or showing up in WF would “help” Jon – as opposed to Sam himself.)
If establishing Jon = Aegon T was “the root of Dany’s despotism,” did we really need all of that screentime over eight seasons developing Samwell Tarly, just so he could contribute a tiny tidbit of information?
F*ck it, they could have cast Hugh Grant as Howland Reed to provide that info-dump in a one-episode cameo.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
PS Maybe some other time I’ll address your other replies about the showrunners’ selection of Arya to kill NK because (they said) it was “unexpected” vs. foreshadowed; that NK wasn’t stupid (hint: he wasn’t – until he was); Bran’s ascent to the throne; etc.
Adrianacandle,
Groan! My dishwasher’s not working, my sink’s full of silverware to clean, I’m looking at mountains of unread newspapers, and I really wanted to read through and reply to comments.
Instead, I think I ought to try to be a responsible adult and attend to work. 🤢.
(How come nobody ever told me when I was a kid that when I grew up I’d be the same person? I didn’t want to clean up my room or do work when I was a boy. I still don’t. If anything, I was probably more mature when I was eleven than at any time since. I sure don’t feel like I’ve evolved into an “adult.)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”The genesis of the entire story was the desire of one guy to write it all himself. Having a writers’ room is the antithesis of that.
Also, a writers’ room would have been another group for B&W to manage. I hope you understand how volunteering them for more work makes you sound really, really entitled.”
Hey! Wait a minute! I wasn’t ”volunteering them for more work.” Rather, I was suggesting that they had taken on too much work over such an extended period of time, and delegating some tasks would ease some of their burdens.
If managing a writers room would have actually increased their work load, then consider me clueless. If I sounded “really, really entitled,” please chalk it up to carelessness. I’ll have to go back and re-read what I wrote that may have betrayed my intentions. (That can happen when one presses “Post Comment” precipitously without first taking a moment to review what’s on the tiny screen.)
Efi,
Interesting, thought-provoking stuff! I’m gonna respond later.
Adrianacandle,
I’ve come across a handful of videos that intelligently analyze some of the points you raised. (Most videos posted by self-professed “critics” are bloviating rants against “Dumb & Dumber” that impugn the narrator rather than their targets.)
Anyway, I’ll try to find the links and post them later if you’re interested.
Adrianacandle,
“And I think the reasons for Jon killing Dany were explained by the show. At the very least, Dany had just razed a surrendered city and wanted to keep it up.”
• Yup. I think that’s the answer in a nutshell.
• It seemed as if Jon, at first, tried to convince himself to give Dany a pass on her “road rage” incident. Even after admitting (to Tyrion?) that there was no excuse for what she’d done, he futilely tried to offer a succession of excuses.
During his final encounter with Dany, it looked like he was still kind of hoping she’d acknowledge she’d committed an atrocity and express some remorse. She didn’t and wouldn’t.
Even after her “they don’t get to choose” comment, I’m not so sure he would’ve euthanized her if she had limited herself to “raz[ing] a surrendered city.” (She wouldn’t be the first conqueror to opt for annihilation over surrender.) It was that she had not only “razed a surrendered city” but “wanted to keep it up” that forced his hand.
• One other thing: The way I perceived it – and I could be wrong – is that it became apparent to Jon that his entreaties were falling on deaf ears, and he therefore realized he’d be unable to rein her in or talk sense into her. It sounded to me like Dany was being portrayed as thoroughly delusional and beyond all reason, e.g., excitedly describing her vision to make the world into a utopia…by systematically destroying the world. It sounded nuts because it was.
Perhaps Jon felt he could still talk her out of her grand plan to liberate people all over the world the way she’d just “liberated” the people of KL, if she were still open to reason. She wasn’t. She was no longer rational. She was beyond understanding the magnitude of what she had just done, and what she was proposing to do. All of that stuff about being the breaker of chains, protector of the realm, blah blah blah, went out the window.
• I’m not a shrink or a geneticist. I couldn’t say whether a hereditary predisposition to “madness” can be triggered like an on-off switch, so that a seemingly normal and rational person can suddenly snap one day and become irretrievably untethered from reality. I don’t know whether traumatic events, misfortunes, or the stresses and pressures in everyday life, can lead to a permanent “psychotic break” – if that’s the accurate term. (Severe depression, yes. Suicide and murder-suicide? Not unheard of. Incinerating a city full of civilians? That I don’t know about….)
I interpreted the final scenes as depicting not an “evil” queen who needed to be stopped at any cost, but rather a crazy person with WMDs who had no idea what she was doing anymore.
As I’ve written before, I had expected the torching of KL. That had been foreshadowed all along. However, I had thought it would be the product of a morally conflicted, difficult decision – even if a condemnable one. I did not foresee Dany’s “worst impulses” leading up to a wholesale change in her character, eliminating all of the good qualities that endeared her to her followers – and to the audience.
I’m still not sure if the show ascribed Dany’s descent to the “50-50 Targ coin flip.” Nor would I know if that’s where the books are heading. That would almost be…too easy: None of the “human heart in conflict with itself,” choosing between equally unpalatable alternatives, or misjudgments producing unintended tragic consequences, but rather, the manifestation of a hereditary mental illness.
That’s fine, if that’s the ending GRRM is aiming for: his heroine, after aspiring to be a great emancipator, commits mass murder but is innocent by reason of insanity.
🤷🏻
Jenny,
FYI: I can’t find it now; if you check back later I’m going to try to post a link to a well-reasoned commentary video that theorizes how excising fAegon drastically changed the story.
kevin1989,
Hi Kevin!
(1) I know you’ve speculated about fAegon in your comments, so if I find that video you might want to take a look.
(2) Why aren’t you working on TWOW? 😎
Ten Bears,
1) Thank you 😀 I will await it.
2) I’m procrastinating. XD
Yup! Me too 🙁 Jenna Marbles made a video about this very thing, a video which struck the very core of me: “I Hate Being a Grown-Up”
“Yeah, we were brainwashed! This sh!t f*cking sucks.”
I feel that by being forced to go to school every day as a kid, I was forced to accomplish something. I think I was way more productive as a kid. Now I have the freedom to put off work but that just screws myself over and it’s my fault… But yet…
…my carpets are still not vacuumed…
And I’ve only done half the dishwasher (I’m sorry for your broken dishwasher 😢When I had to hand-wash dishes in my last apartment, there were times I’d gently lay a kitchen towel over the mini-towers in the sink, as if that made anything better…)
Ten Bears,
Yeah, this was my read too.
I think Jon offered those excuses because he wanted Tyrion to be wrong about Dany, wanted to believe KL was a one-time thing, that the war was over so he wouldn’t have to kill her to stop her destruction. So if there was a reason why Dany felt she had to do this to KL, Dany would stop there and not continue to rain fire and blood over the world. However, it seems that Dany believed more massacre was the way to utopia… which isn’t good…
If Dany had just agreed to cut it out, employ mercy, and acknowledge she committed an atrocity, show remorse like you said, I don’t Jon would have killed her — which is why I think he was pleading with her to be merciful and change her mind. It seemed to me Jon still had hope Dany would stop her destruction and that he could dissuade her from this. There’s this script direction in the finale script as he’s pleading with her (“Looking at her, his need to believe is almost overwhelming.“) But Dany was giving him all the wrong answers, felt mercy had become a weapon to be used against her, and she just wasn’t going to stop.
Yeah, I’m not sure about these areas either because I’m not trained in them myself. Dany was able to hold it together when misfortune befell her earlier but not this time, it looks like. And afterward, it seemed to me that she started denying reality (believing she “liberated” all those people who are now dead and she must “liberate” the world from “tyrants” through fire and blood, that Cersei forced her to burn the people, etc.)
I agree. I don’t think Dany was thinking she was being cruel… but I think she really felt that destruction was the way to utopia (burning the world to start it anew and under her rule because she felt she was the only one who could determine what is good) and that she felt her actions were justified and right. And that, in a way, might be even more dangerous because they really feel they are doing good even when they’re not.
Admittedly, I didn’t see this coming (Dany burning all of KL). I thought the ceiling would be Dany burning through Cersei’s people-shield in order to get to her but she ended up burning the entire city, seemingly careful not to miss one square inch of exposed surface. I remember my mum was watching the episode with me and we’re near the end, Dany’s still flying on Drogon, burning things up, Arya’s stumbling through the burning remains, and my mum’s all, “Dany’s not done yet?”
Personally, I was pretty taken aback but I can (grudgingly and with great sorrow) accept this is probably her path in the books. Maybe not this exact scenario but something like it, as I discussed with Jenny. I just hope it’s a more nuanced situation in the books, that is a more morally conflicted, difficult, and agonizing decision with compelling reasons on both sides. Like how you described, “the ‘human heart in conflict with itself,’ choosing between equally unpalatable alternatives, or misjudgments producing unintended tragic consequences, but rather, the manifestation of a hereditary mental illness.”
I’ve seen videos and analysis calling Dany a case of tragic idealism. Maybe that’s it.
P.S. And when you can, definitely share those links with me! You can email me (throawayawoo1067 at gmail — my “mud room” email address to keep my real address off of spam and phishing lists) or post them here! 😀
Adrianacandle,
Typo!
*If Dany had just agreed to cut it out, employ mercy, and acknowledge she committed an atrocity, show remorse like you said, I don’t think Jon would have killed her[…]
Mini-rant: I don’t know if Grammarly is worth the hassle anymore. Maybe it’s my computer but it feels really slow and doesn’t seem to catch everything — or it takes its sweet sweet time to catch missing words, spelling errors, grammar mistakes… And when I finally do catch the error, it’s too late.
Time to hunt for better digital proof-readers 🙁
Adrianacandle,
Subject to your answer to the question below, I will probably try to post those links here within the next day or so. Otherwise I will probably use your “mud room” email address.
(Now that I think of it, I may want to use email as the first option, because the Lord of Light, i.e. the site’s algorithms, frequently intercepts comments containing multiple links.)
Q: Do you get automatic notifications of replies to your comments on watchersonthewall?
Ten Bears,
Sometimes I do get copies of comments via email that have been caught by the site’s algorithms (but don’t appear publicly) but I’ve noticed that’s been happening less and less. Like you, I’ve also noticed that if I include more than one external link in a comment, it gets held for moderation — or if I add too many reply links in a single post.
If you do choose email, I’ve added my “mud room” email to my Mail app on my primary computer so I’ll see it as soon as I check my regular email. From that point on, I can use my regular email address 🙂
I also check this thread pretty frequently (though, there have been many times I’ve missed comments that have been held for moderation and made publicly available later).
Adrianacandle,
kevin1989,
I’m going to try to post links to two videos by Lindsay Ellis. Another commenter had cited her videos, so I looked for them and watched them. She supports her critiques with examples and analysis – and dry wit.
Though I try to be conscious of confirmation bias when appraising video reviews, I did notice that she addresses many of the same aspects of the final seasons that troubled me.*
Kevin: In one of the videos I’m pretty sure she discusses the impact on the show of excising fAegon/Young Griff. You’ve frequently written about that character, so I thought you might be interested in that analysis.
In a few minutes I’m going to post the links one at a time in two separate comments to try to appease the Lord of Light. (I may not include your screen names. Sometimes the insertion of multiple screen names irks the Lord of Light, causing him to divert a comment to “That Page Not Found” Oblivion.)
* Caveat: Posting links to any of videos does NOT mean I am endorsing their contents.
Lindsay Ellis S8 Analyses (Two videos)
———
#1 Lindsay Ellis “We Need to Talk About Game of Thrones – I Guess”
(44 min long) published June 28, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hys_m3BPTS8
_____________
#2 Lindsay Ellis: “The Last of the Game of Thrones Hot Takes” (1 hr, 10 min long)
August 14, 2019
[I think she discusses several characters separately: see time counter designations below]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGr0NRx3TKU
Sansa – 4:38
Bronn – 11:37
Varys – 14:04
Jon – 20:29
Tyrion – 26:41
Jaime – 33:15
Cersei – 38:38
Daenerys – 46:15
Ten Bears,
Thanks! I have seen the Lindsey Ellis critiques! (I’ve followed her since Nostalgia Critic) I agree with some points she makes, particularly in the first — but I think there are some more extreme takes that I believe take things a bit too far.
Adrianacandle,
Oh, okay.
• Have you seen critiques by “Mauler”? They’re kind of long and sometimes he goes way overboard with his anti-D&D diatribes. However. for me at least they’re entertaining, in no small part because he keeps circling back to Jon’s failure to pet Ghost. He just can’t let go of that. 😆 I may post those links tomorrow. (I think he’s done three or four videos.)
• Ozzy Man Reviews have been my favorites all along, and his S8 episode reviews are upbeat and complimentary. I appreciate his rapid-fire presentation style. You’ve probably watched them already….(?)
Ten Bears,
Yes, I have seen Mauler! But I haven’t yet seen Ozzy Man — I’ll check him out now! And I agree with your assessments of these reviewers like Mauler. I find it hard to get through such videos because of the anti-D&D stuff, it can be a bit too intense, and how he kind of gets stuck XD;; I think you once said that how, in some of these videos, there are a few genuinely salient points — but you have to really sift through the videos and its rants to get to these points.
I’ve been quietly examining both sides of this debate over the past almost-year (watching videos, reading Reddit essays, blog entries, etc.) and there are things I agree with, things I disagree with, but I think it gives a good picture of how some of the more passionate parts of the fandom feel and how that can really vary. It’s hard to know the general feelings of casual or less-passionate viewers because they’ve moved on, Game of Thrones is in the past. Some Redditors who I used to follow have all but stopped talking about it.
I think the reaction to Game of Thrones season 8 would be an incredible study in fandom behaviors someday, sort of as a view on a micro-version of a society because… wow. There’s a lot. If you had told me a year ago this would be the reaction, I’d have never believed it.
(UPDATE: Just previewed a few seconds of an Ozzy Man review — like him already!! :D)
Hey! Wait a minute! I wasn’t ”volunteering them for more work.”
Ten Bears,
I doubted you had that intent, and I believe you when you say you did not, but it could certainly be interpreted that way. As Benioff and Weiss are each published authors, they may have found writing the television scripts as the “fun part” of their work, and were loathe to delegate it more than necessary. If that is indeed true — and I have no idea if it is, this is pure speculation on my part — then your suggestion could be interpreted as saying to them, “why didn’t you give someone else the fun stuff, and load yourselves with yet another management task?”
(Also, for those of us with experience of collaborative, creative work, it’s often more time and effort to manage a committee than to just sit down and do the work personally. The latter is often more rewarding, as well.)
Ten Bears,
Sam’s additional VS sword didn’t make a difference.
I didn’t say that it had; I said he brought it, and he brought it in the full knowledge it could very well make *all* of the difference in the fight. Samwell Tarly knew from intensely personal experience that having the correct weapon in hand made all of the difference in a fight with a WW. You’re claiming he should not have acted upon that knowledge, knowledge provided by an experience that only a few persons alive had ever seen?
Second-hand scribblings in a dead septon’s diary wasn’t an “unimpeachable source,”
By whose standards? In a society where literacy is rare and a septon is normally considered to be a trusted figure of authority, those “scribblings” could carry great weight indeed.
In another moment when I almost seriously wonder if you and I actually watched the same television series, Sam told Jon of Jon’s true ancestry, and Sam did so because Dany had egregiously hurt him.
Dany had no need to kill Dickon Tarly, and she had no need to tell Sam about it, at least not as the Army of the Dead approached. Her clueless arrogance had her do both, and those acts returned to bite her in the ass, big time.
Was any of this what Sam had intended when he fled The Citadel? No, but if this story wasn’t about unintented consequences of human acts, then I have to wonder what it was all about.
… nothing in the show ever revealed why Sam felt it was imperative to abandon those objectives and head off to WF.
The much-vaunted Maesters of the Citadel proved to be nothing more than a bunch of arrogant, ignorant, timid old fuddy-duddies who knew less about the situation at hand than did Sam and Jon. He went to Jon at WF because at least there he might make a difference.
Ten Bears,
Unrelated but have you ever heard of the podcast, Under the Influence? It started off as a Canadian radio segment on the CBC and it’s now transitioned to podcast. I’ve listened to just about every episode but I often wonder if you’ve listened to it and how you’d like it (if you’re ever looking for a podcast to listen to).
The description:
I know it sounds a little bit dry but I promise, it’s fascinating. There’s so much history and really odd connections and circumstances that have come together (often by happenstance) to create the products we know and use today. It sometimes goes through pop culture influences, social influences, gender roles, changing times, necessities of the time, etc. — but it’s super fascinating. The latest episode I listened to talked about how many of our common household products started off as military innovations to provide solutions to challenges experienced in army life. Minute Maid for instance!
I haven’t done it justice but I sometimes wonder what you may think of this show 🙂
I also wanted to add that I think Lindsay Ellis makes quite a few good points. I think there are several takes of hers that I feel are a bit much and while I don’t agree with everything she says, she does make some good observations. She has said stuff that I’ve kept in the back of my mind and I share some of the problems she has with season 8.
I’m also enjoying Ozzy Man. Between him and Alt Shift X, I really like Australians ;D
Ten Bears,
My only gripe was that without showing how Cersei’s rule was causing genuine suffering and misery for the people, the death and destruction caused by an invasion even by an altruistic would-be ruler would not be worth it to the average person.
That’s actually the point: by the standards of the long-suffering (if entirely fictional) population of Westeros, Queen Cersei wasn’t all that bad. Sure, bad-mouth her in public and her giant zombie freak might crush your pathetic little skull, but insulting the monarch is considered bad form in pretty much every monarchy, and since she doesn’t get out much, the chance you’re going to get beaten to death for stubbing her toe is pretty small. She was also the widow of King Robert, whose dispatch of those incest-loving Targ’ foreigners and subsequent reign during a truly Long Summer make his memory fond amongst the population — if Ser Jorah is to be believed, anyway. After paying Robert’s debts by looting those snooty Tyrells — Lords of Somewhere Far Away — the economy of King’s Landing may well have improved under Cersei, too. Why chuck all of that goodness (or at least indifference) from The Devil You Know to empower a dragon-riding Targ’ whose *foreign* armies consist mostly of raping, thieving Dothraki and humorlessly fanatic Unsullied killers?
But Varys surely had to know that ousting one monarch by force in favor of a better one couldn’t be accomplished without bloodshed.
Tyron tried it. He failed most miserably, but he did try. Why not Varys?
Also, how would getting rid of Dany before Cersei was ousted help Jon/Aegon or anyone else take over? How and why would Jon and his depleted forces defeat the defenders of KL?
Again, that’s the point. There was no need for *anyone* to march upon King’s Landing. Cersei was a self-created prisoner in the Red Keep. Let her starve to death in there by paying off the Gold Cloaks. Not heroic, but it would have gotten the job done.
Adrianacandle,
I saw that you started Ozzy Man Reviews. If you’ve never seen them, I recommend his review of Hardhome S5e8. Needless to say, he liked that episode.
Ten Bears,
Adrianacandle,
This is how it works:
+ Dany had a hereditary genetic predisposition to psychopathy. The manifestation of her psychopathic urges was originally constrained by lack of power and opportunity, and later by the availability and willingness/ability of suitable close advisors to restrain her.
+ Dany’s psychopathic traits increasingly manifested as she gained more power and opportunity to act on them and as the availability and willingness/ability of suitable advisors to restrain her diminished.
+ From the outset, Dany had Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The most obvious manifestation was her unshakeable sense of entitlement to the Iron Throne (based primarily on blood rather than ability and, as we saw eventually, not based on whether she was necessarily the best person to rule either). There was also a major warning early on, when Dany was shown as smiling during Drogo’s rant about raping Westerosi women — this sadism was a huge red flag that Dany was never actually the “good person” she was portrayed as (and believed herself to be) until the clever “bait and switch” near the end of the show.
+ In the final season, Dany’s NPD escalated to full-scale Malignant Narcissism. During GoT’s overall storyline, this was accompanied by Dany’s attitudes escalating from sadistic punishment of people who’d genuinely wronged her, to victim-blaming of innocents who’d suffered at her hands, to eventually mentally blocking out the very existence of the hundreds of thousands she’d massacred in KL.
+ Dany was in a full psychotic state after she’d torched KL. Her decision to pull the trigger was the tipping point; earlier in the season (I can’t remember the exact episode), Dany made it clear that she was considering massacring KL’s inhabitants as a deterrent to future enemy rulers who may plan to hide behind human shields; she was still thinking rationally at that point, but from the perspective of ruthless realpolitik. However, actually taking the step to nuke KL was what made her finally snap (you could see her psychologically struggling moments before ordering Drogon to do it), because the only way the remnants of her conscience and her self-image of being a “good person” could psychologically cope with her own actions was to block out the enormity of the atrocity she was responsible for. That’s the reason the fact that she’d killed so many innocent civilians barely registered with her when Jon confronted her about it.
+ So Dany’s ultimate mental state was a combination of an underlying congenital medical condition (psychopathy) and psychiatric disorders (NPD and, eventually, Malignant Narcissism). The former exacerbated the latter, and the corrosive impact of the latter on Dany’s emotions and thought-processes increasingly gave her the internal self-justification to act on the former.
Like many people, I have some reservations about the way GoT’s storyline in the final seasons was handled. But the theme of the effects of these medical and psychiatric conditions on individuals who gain the power to act on them was horribly realistic.
Real-life psychopaths are often like that. Charismatic; attractive; manipulative; persuasive; adept at creating plausible-sounding excuses to justify their actions; drag genuinely good people into the vortex of their lives; and cause chaos wherever they go. Why did otherwise-intelligent and decent individuals like Tyrion and Jon not see what kind of person Dany actually was? Why were they so blind to it, until it was too late? Same reason so many viewers didn’t see it. Because that’s the effect that psychopaths often have on others.
And, of course, the theme of one of the “heroes” turning out to be the nastiest villain of all and neither the character herself nor (until the rug was pulled out from under them) many of the viewers realising it despite the warning signs all along really is very clever storytelling. Kudos to GRRM for that.
Ten Bears,
I will save the videos. Which video was about Young Griff? I’m very interesting in that video.
I think fAegon was mentioned in this video (link copied below). Sorry I didn’t make note of when those references occur in the 70-minute video.
Lindsay Ellis:
“The Last of the Game of Thrones Hot Takes”
(1 hr, 10 min long) August 14, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGr0NRx3TKU
——
I enjoyed that review A LOT! He has such a great way with words and summarizing scenes! Pure, pure A+ elegance! Quotes off the top of my head:
“Jorah the Explorer”
“Stone wanker”
“She doesn’t kill Jorah but she makes him cry and leave again.”
“Everyone decides to join Jon — except for the Thenns, they’re still a bunch of c*nts.”
I want to copy the link in case others are interested! Thanks for telling me about this reviewer, Ten Bears!
Jai,
I’m might have to think more deeply about a response because I think we’re getting into some really delicate, tricky areas with diagnoses of real-life conditions, behaviors, and the still much unknown science behind the correlation of mental disorders, criminal behaviors, and genetics — especially since I lack formal training in that area and only have anecdotal experience via my own struggles with conditions such as obsessive compulsive disorder (which I find tends to be misunderstood). My dad, a PhD in computational quantum chemistry, has always told me the various sciences fall on a spectrum of objectivity and what we know. Math is the purest form of science in which answers from equations can be proven irrefutably (there’s no in-between with math), after that is physics, chemistry, a bit of a margin before biology (since there’s still so much unknown in this area) and then a big big margin before pyschology (because the brain is so much of a mystery still).
However, and treading lightly into this delicate area as a layman, I wanted to say while I think Dany has definite entitlement issues and a desire for power, I don’t think she meets the criterion for pyschopathy prior to mid 805 (particularly lack of empathy, guilt, conscience or remorse; shallow experiences of feelings or emotions). Additionally, I don’t think she has been manipulative or false. Her desire to make the world a better place was genuine — she didn’t manipulate or lie to that end. Apart from tricking the master into selling her all of the Unsullied, I can’t think of much Dany has been false about (but I could be blanking on some things.) She tends to mean what she says. And she has performed heroic deeds alongside her more questionable and yikes! actions. D&D have also said the following:
For 609:
For 507:
[Re: the scene in which Daario is urging Dany to be more ruthless and round up every master she can find to slaughter them so she can secure her rule and Dany replies, “I am a queen, not a butcher,” in response.]
kevin1989,
Martin has said that he decided against the first idea to put a 5-year interval between the first and the second part because “what happens in that time”? He couldn’t answer that question. The fact that in his fantasy world winter is no time when everything stops (unlike the middle ages, where all activity stopped even before the first snowfalls) didn’t help with time passing in his novel. Each book last up to six months, not more (and that is a generous estimation).
At the same time, he started at that point, because the story is about the kinds –the Stark kids and Daenerys. I suppose that means that narratively-wise the kids come of age in very difficult circumstances, their universe is turned upside down, everything they knew was a lie and everyone’s out to get them for their own agenda -they are actually in mortal danger. He used the kids who are basically innocent and unable to protect themselves for bringing out the duplicity, hypocrisy and murderous instincts of the grown-ups.
It’s a very powerful story; some aspects of it work, i.e. you really feel for the abuse Daenerys and Sansa had to suffer, you even feel for Cersei having all her hopes and dreams crushed in her marriage to Robert. But Robb is barely 15 when he has all those military exploits. Not that it hasn’t happened before to have a general so successful at that age, but that’s rare, very rare. Also, the marriages don’t work, they’re extreme. The people didn’t marry their daughters at 12 or 13, but at 16 or 17. And Bran, if Martin wants to make him king of Westeros, he’ll still be barely 12 when it all ends. By all standards he’ll be a minor, even in Martin’s fictional world.
Ten Bears,
You don’t need to respond. I’m reading all your other replies and I’m having fun. 😊
I guess what I mean is that M. didn’t like the way the story was going and he bailed out…
It wouldn’t be the first time he’s done that. He left them so that he could do things where he’d be more in control (I think he’s perfectly ok with that, he’s been working in the industry since forever). But they knew the story; they knew all of it, with plenty of details.
Efi,
But Martin’s first intend was the 5 year gab, that gab has it’s reason. He already had that in mind at the beginning when he though of what his story would be about and what his ending would be about.
The reason why he decided against the 5 year gab was that it didn’t work for at least one character so he decided to skip the 5 year gab and just show it. But that doesn’t mean that the reason why he wanted the 5 year gab isn’t still there and causing problems with his writing and let him question himself: How do I solve this problem without a time skip?
I think the reason is that some characters need to age up. It could be something else why he needed a 5 year gab, but I think life-experience for some characters is the issue.
Jai,
What you described is actually very, very scary.
Others have pointed out that Daenerys suffers from NPD; and some have even said that Martin’s way of describing mental conditions is indeed masterful.
But what you say about psychopaths dragging other people “into the vortex of their lives” is something I’ve experienced and I can genuinely say that one recognizes that effect only very late, if ever.
Only when people see it they can do something to help themselves and the person who actually suffers from some condition.
What do you do when these persons refuse that they need any professional help?
Eh, I don’t know… I even confessed to one that I am not skilled enough to handle this behavior, so I was prepared to block all contact and communication. But they won’t go away because they have no boundaries and do not understand others’ needs.
Adrianacandle,
My dad, a PhD in computational quantum chemistry, has always told me the various sciences fall on a spectrum of objectivity and what we know.
I think I would like your father!
Math is the purest form of science in which answers from equations can be proven irrefutably (there’s no in-between with math), after that is physics, chemistry, a bit of a margin before biology (since there’s still so much unknown in this area) and then a big big margin before pyschology (because the brain is so much of a mystery still).
Math isn’t really a science, although anything which does not use math is not a science. Math is philosophy, which is why it’s the only endeavor in which we can actually claim to prove anything; you can write a logical proof of the Theorem of Pythagoras, for example. Even in math, per Goedel’s Theorem, you can have a proposition which is formally undecidable; following the logical rules won’t resolve it. (For example, division by zero is not allowed.)
Once we get out into actual science, we have to talk in terms of confidence. If we marshall enough evidence, we can move our confidence interval from 95% through 99% and all the way to 99.95% — but we can’t get to 100%, ever. (There could possibly exist evidence to contradict the “Law of Gravity”, for example.)
Finally, medicine and engineering are not even science. They are arts informed by science (and math). I’m approaching thirty years in the practice of one of them, and lay persons might well be shocked (and appalled!) at how much guesswork happens in my world!
Going back to Dany, biochemistry and psychology are very new and very un-formed sciences. As other commenters have noted (some even lamented), it took many environmental factors to push Dany over the edge into full-scale murderous despotism. But as Jai described, the latent tendency was always there, within her. When it combined with enough of the correct external factors, it erupted into the destruction of King’s Landing and a threat to burn the entire world. As he also noted, this was some great storytelling.
kevin1989,
Who do you think it didn’t work for?
If there was a gap, it would be after the RW. Then Jon would be 15 going on to 16, Sansa 12 going on to 13, Arya 10 going on to 11, Bran 9 going on to 10 (perhaps? I mix them up; Bran says he’s almost a man in ADWD, but what does that mean? Which is the age boys start to feel “like men”?)
I think that Martin wasn’t satisfied with leaving the political condition as it was, e.g., what happens in the North? what happens in the Riverlands? what will Stannis do? I suppose that if the book had been structured otherwise, had it been more narrative, had there not been for the PoVs, it would have been more suited to put that interval of 5 years.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I’d love to be able to adequately respond to this but I’m terrible at math. And physics. And chemistry. So in a way, it’s like you’re speaking an alien language to me ;D Biology was my best event but that was because I could memorize things, not actually do calculations in which my brain is convinced that 11-9=3… somehow… I am very lucky to live in a world of iPhones and Alexa 🙂
I wish you could discuss this with Dad face to face because he could tell you exactly what he means! I think he was pointing to math as a system which helps explain the world around us. However, I’ll keep your comments with me and ask him about this because my knowledge in this field is extremely limited. And maybe in another comment section, I could share his answers if this comes up?
Oh yes, I think he’d agree with you on this 100%.
I think there were some things along the way maybe but I, personally, don’t think there was enough of a ramp-up to what she did in 805 and planned to do in 806. I’ve seen arguments for and against opinions similar to mine and when I answered Jai, I was afraid of picking this battle again. However, I knew I was walking through that door. To me, and I’m not stating this as fact, it seemed too abrupt. I understand that it worked for others who did anticipate it happening though.
Efi,
Those questions would have still be answered of course if he did have a 5 year gab, but through flashbacks.
Who the 5 year gab didn’t work I don’t know. I only know Martin stated as one of his reasons.
Who maybe the 5 year gab was needed is I think at least Bran. And probably Rickon. But mostly Bran. We know that his age now he would have needed a regent. (Look at Joffrey for instance), but he need to rule alone without a regent. Also I think Sansa, I think for Sansa to mature where the story will end she needs to be a year of 4/5 years older than she is now.
I think the Red Wedding happened in 299 AC. Robb and Jon were born in 283, Dany in 284, Sansa in 286, Arya in 289, Bran in 290, Rickon in 295.
So yeah, when the Red Wedding happened, Robb and Jon were 15-16, Dany was 14-15, Sansa was 12-13, Arya was 9-10, Bran was 8-9, and Rickon was 3-4 years old.
So I think, since GRRM planned to include a 5-year time jump after this time, he may have had plans for the characters that required more maturity and life experience in book 4/5 and beyond. However, for whatever reason, GRRM found this time jump didn’t work, which may have screwed up some of his plans for where he wanted characters to be since Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon especially are still so young. And may not be old enough to reasonably get to those plot points.
As for the age when boys turn into men, I think the age of transition may be starting at 12 years old in Westeros and this may be why Bran feels he’s almost a man. From Jon V, ADWD:
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Sorry to call you out, I have studied Math (teacher to be precise). But Math is the foundation of science, and the reason science is here. It’s the purest form of science there is. It’s all about pure evidence. It is true or it isn’t. And math is about proving the answer and that there is no way around that it can be something else.
Even your example is just wrong about dividing by zero, there is a reason why that rule exists. It’s not just a rule, it’s proven why dividing by zero can never happen. I would advice to look up why that never can happen. (one explanation with a QED in it)
Calling math a philosophy is also wrong, but I think I understand where you are coming from. Math covers basically 3 things:
– Working with numbers: this one is pure science.
– Geometry (hope I use the right english word): The science of abstract figures, and also concrete figures. All our buildings, computers etc that are made by man, even nature itself is a combination of these 2 points.
– The last you could say is a bit philosophical because math learns you one thing: Dealing with problems.
Adrianacandle,
Agree, and to add one thing. Was Robb really matured enough to be King? He was a great strategist, but he needed Cat for the maturity. He made mistakes because he missed some life experience. Like he did with Jeyne/Talisa.
Adrianacandle,
I think there were some things along the way maybe but I, personally, don’t think there was enough of a ramp-up to what she did in 805 and planned to do in 806.
It’s art; either it works for you, or it does not. We can agree to disagree on whether Game of Thrones adequately provided basis for Dany’s behavior in “The Bells” and “The Iron Throne.”
The story, as told, had me completely believing she was capable of torching the city the moment she started doing it. I hadn’t anticipated her doing it, but once she started, it smoothly followed from everything I’d seen and heard up to that point. If you don’t agree, well, then we’ll agree to disagree. 🙂
(I am really, really looking forward to my full-series re-watch someday. I’d be willing to wager there are far more ‘clues’ about Dany’s fate embedded in the story than I now remember.)
Absolutely. What works for somebody may not work for another so I certainly agree with this sentiment 🙂 And, whether I like it or not, Dany’s Bells Rampage is still the scenario GoT ended up telling.
Right, and I think that’s something this series explores — what happens when you put people who are kids (especially as far as our world goes) into these roles of leadership and how that can go wrong — and I think this is really explored with Robb, Jon, and Dany. They try to do the right thing but they don’t really have a ton of life experience, which can hinder their abilities to adequately anticipate what can go wrong or what to do when things do go wrong, I think. Robb really did need his mother. To a lesser extent, it’s also explored with kids even younger (Bran and Tommen, the latter of whom is being used as a puppet).
Also: 595 comments! As of today, this thread has been going on for a month!
Auto-Correct is vile. “Auto-Correct” is an oxymoron. Auto-Correct is not our friend!
I know your intended subject was the “5 year gap.” Because of the distracting change to “5 year gab,” as I read your comment I could not help imagining someone chattering non-stop for five years, and the voice of an exasperated Sandor Clegane finally intervening to call out the offending blabbermouth (“You’re a talker…”) with the ultimatum: “If I hear any more words pouring out your c*nt mouth I’m going to have to eat every f*cking chicken in this room.” *
___________________
“Auto-Correct has made my kingdom bleed. I will mount Auto-Correct’s head on a spike.”
– Stannis Baratheon, the One True King, Protector of the Realm, and Defender of the Lexicon
—————-
* Addendum to follow
kevin1989,
(Addendum to 8:45 am Comment)
Re: S4e1 scene (Polliver silenced by Sandor & Arya)
• Query: Was it coincidental or intentional that “Polliver” was the name of the bloviating “talker”?
– Sandor warned of the consequences if any more words came pouring out his c*nt mouth, yet he still wouldn’t shut up. 🗣
– Arya, after repeating Polliver’s own words back at him, drove Needle through his voice box (larynx), shutting him up for good.🤐 🗡 👸🏻
• “Polliver” sounds a lot like “Palaver.” They are virtual homophones. (In simplistic terms, “homonyms” are words that sound alike but have different meanings, and “homophones” are a type of homonym: words that sound alike and have different meanings but also have different spellings.)
• “Palaver” is a synonym for “Gab”:
gab (verb): to talk at length about trivial matters; to chat idly; to talk continuously and eagerly, especially about things that are not important; to chatter on and on; to palaver
gab (noun) talk; chatter; babble; palaver
palaver (verb) to talk unproductively and at length; to gab; to chatter; to prattle on
palaver (noun) talk or discussion that goes on far too long and is not important.
—————-
This Vocabulary Commentary brought to you by King Stannis, the One True King, High Grammarian, Protector of the Realm and Defender of the Lexicon
Adrianacandle,
”…Also: 595 comments! As of today, this thread has been going on for a month!“
This should be Comment #598 (as of 3/3/2020 at 10:33 am) in the Comments Section under the article posted on February 3, 2020.
Let’s shoot for 600…
I think 600 is a worthy target!
With a bit of effort, we could, we could.
Adrianacandle,
… kids (especially as far as our world goes) into these roles of leadership and how that can go wrong — and I think this is really explored with Robb, Jon, and Dany.
You raise an interesting point. They each fail in a leadership role. Additionally, each fails in a different way. Robb leads his people into a trap, Jon becomes so focused on the WW threat, he fails to see his men plotting against him, and Dany fails to restrain her worst impulses. Thank you for pointing that out to us!
kevin1989,
I apologize. I respectfully disagree with your comments, but we’re now seriously outside the realm of “Game of Thrones,” and so I will not continue dialog with you on the excellent points you have raised.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
Tensor FTW! #600
Adrianacandle,
Your comment on children as leaders made me think about the strengths and weaknesses of GRRM’s story.
Adrianacandle,
”Right, and I think that’s something this series explores — what happens when you put people who are kids (especially as far as our world goes) into these roles of leadership and how that can go wrong — and I think this is really explored with Robb, Jon, and Dany. They try to do the right thing but they don’t really have a ton of life experience, which can hinder their abilities to adequately anticipate what can go wrong or what to do when things do go wrong.”
Good observation. I had typed a follow up to your comment (and Tensor’s reply) about Robb, Jon and Dany). I switched screens for five seconds to take a phone call – and the Lord of Light zapped my text.
Oh well… Restated version:
I had questioned whether Jon misconstrued Aemon’s advice to “kill the boy and let the man be born,” failed to learn the lesson from the murder of his predecessor, LC Jeor Mormont, by disgruntled NW “brothers,” and neglected to heed Stannis’s warning about Thorne and his fellow haters. (When Jon spouted the cliche about keeping one’s enemies close, Stannis shot back with something like: “Whoever said that didn’t have many enemies.”) Jon was right to implement his Free Folk Rescue and Resettlement Program: the alternative was to allow the Wildlings to be inducted into the Zombie Army. Jon just didn’t take the time to “sell” the plan to his NW crew, and didn’t consider their ingrained anti-Wildling prejudices before announcing his decision. A little more vigilance and maturity might have spared Jon an unexpected knifing.
As for Robb, he got snared in a honey trap before
“lead[ing] his people into a trap.” In his naivete, he pursued his romantic interests while neglecting his oaths and responsibilities to his people – despite his mother’s express warnings. Again, a little more maturity and experience might have given him pause before making an impetuous decision that ultimately cost him his life and the lives of his followers.
Dany “failed to restrain her worst impulses” when she no longer had loyal, experienced advisors to guide her. Without their confidence that “you’re not your father” to support her own pronouncements that “I’m not here to be Queen of the Ashes,” she devolved into the Mad Kong’s Daughter aka the Queen of the Ashes.
It looked to me like she reverted from a self-confident leader to a confused girl who acted out of raw emotion rather than rational thinking. (Whether that was adequately developed or not is a separate question.) One could say that someone thrust into a leadership role at a young age might be prone to a loss of self-restraint in times of stress. From the portrayal of the sudden onset of her road rage (triggered by the 50-50 genetic coin flip?), I don’t know if “maturity” and more experience would have made a difference.
Maybe this will all play out differently in the books, where all of these characters are in their early to mid-teens, as opposed to their “aged-up” TV counterparts.
Ten Bears,
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
Yes, and I think it’s even more true in the books as of book 5, which I think (and I’m sorry to plug this… again…) The Meereenese Blot essays covers well.
In addition to what you both have summarized well in the show, it’s even more true for a 14/15-year old King in the North Robb, a 14-16 year conqueror-queen Dany, and a 16/17-year old Lord Commander Jon.
For example, with Jon in ADWD — he is so determined to set the world to rights, despite LC Mormont’s warning to him in ACOK:
But in book 5, this exactly what Jon ends up trying to do alongside his duties as Lord Commander and preparing the defense of the realm against the Others. Jon is able to build a peace with the wildlings but this is inadvertently put at risk by his other actions to set the world to rights. He wants to aid Stannis against a monster like Ramsay; he tries to rescue his sister from that same monster; and when Alys comes to Jon for help, he not only protects her at Castle Black, he arranges a marriage and army for Alys so she can reclaim her birthright from relatives who are trying to steal it from her. All the while, Jon’s officers grow angrier and more worried that Jon is dooming the Watch. They already disapprove of his alliance with the wildlings, that he’s letting in the enemy. Bowen is worried they don’t have enough food for everyone Jon wants to shelter at the Wall. And in addition to this, by helping Stannis, they’re (justifiably) worried that Jon is inviting the wrath of the Iron Throne (and Cersei does try to arrange Jon’s assassination).
Adam Feldman termed summarized these as Jon’s conflicts in ADWD:
And through these choices (namely, his attempt to rescue fArya via Mance), Jon ends up instigating the wrath of the Boltons. At which point, he gets the Pink Letter. Jon is so repulsed by Ramsay’s demands — demands that order Jon himself commit morally terrible actions by sending people under his protection to a monster — that he declares he will fight Ramsay, publicly breaking neutrality and he gets shanked. breaking the fragile peace he built between the wildlings and the Watch and it erupts in chaos.
With Dany, by ADWD, she learns she can’t abolish slavery and turn over a system overnight. She’s a 14-year old conquerer without even a formal education. First, when Dany conquered Astapor, she kills the slaving class and institutes a new council of former slaves. However, this council can’t keep power and are overthrown by a butcher, who declares himself king and restarts the Unsullied. They are eventually attacked by Yunkai, upon which Astapor is defeated and a bloody flux breaks out in the city.
The Astapori flee to Meereen, where Dany is now queen. And though Dany tries to help the Astapori refugees, when the Yunkai are about to attack Meereen, she is forced to close the gates because if she lets the Astapori refugees into Meereen, the disease will infect the Meereenese as well.
When Dany conquered Yunkai and liberated the slaves, she allowed the slaver class to still rule the city this time. But as soon as she left, the Yunkai slaving class returned to… slaving… and they attacked Astapor.
So in ADWD, where Jon doesn’t really make many compromises with his men at all in his efforts to build peace with the wildlings (laying down the law with his officers that the wildlings are people too, they’re not enemies, and they need to fight together against the Others), Dany makes compromise after compromise to build a peace between herself, Meereen, the Harpy. and the Yunkai. There is still a lot of hate between these three groups but for a brief time, there is a truce.
And it does work for a time. It’s very fragile. However, as Feldman points out, Barristan’s coup on Hizdahr destroys her peace with the Harpy and the disaster in the fighting pits destroys the peace with the Yunkai. All the while, Dany has grown more and more frustrated with the sacrifices and compromises she’s had to make that she resolves, “Dragons plant no trees,” in the end after everything goes to hell.
So … that’s where I think some child leaders can run into problems 🙂
Congratulations, Tensor, #600!!
Mango,
Yeah, I think ASOIAF certainly has strengths and weaknesses in its story and as it happens, Petra’s video essay she posted yesterday made me consider that very thing.
While I’m pretty sure this is a typo, the idea of ‘Mad Kong’s Daughter’ made me think of King Kong having a daughter tearing up the city with fire 😂😢😂😢😂😢😂😢😂
Adrianacandle,
“Auto-Correct has made my kingdom bleed. I will mount Auto-Correct’s head on a spike.”
– Stannis Baratheon, the One True King, Protector of the Realm, and Defender of the Lexicon
Adrianacandle,
XDXD hahahahaa
I can’t tell you how many times, when my screaming/raging/sobbing/ranting self has been auto-corrected to ‘duck’ and ‘ducking’, that I’ve wanted to aggressively “drop” my phone.
Adrianacandle,
So your auto-correction didn’t give a “duck”?
XD Yes!
Adrianacandle,
I’ll have you know that for the longest time Auto-Correct (aka Auto-Err) insisted on changing “King” to “Ming” – likely because a couple of years ago I did a Google search for a Chinese restaurant, “Sun Ming,” in New York. My family used to eat there often when I was growing up. It was a big treat: a long spooky car ride on unlit, winding country roads through dense woods to get there, but it was worth it. The food was amazing. I had a sudden urge to call up there to see if I could arrange for an overnight shipment of their signature dishes. However, I learned that Sun Ming had closed several years ago.
That still didn’t stop Auto F*cking Correct from automatically inserting “Ming” whenever I typed “King.” And now it’s doing the same with “Kong”? 🤬
– End Rant –
Testing. 12:04 am
Oh god, that’s frustrating! It makes you regret typing at all!
I think auto-correct is here to drive us crazy. In a form the other day, it kept correcting my name to ‘Natalie’. My name is not Natalie!!!! So on the 8th try, the rage tears were starting to erupt as I began weighing the option of decimating my iPhone 6 with … having an iPhone 6. It was a harder choice than it should have been.
#$*@(! Apple.
But apparently, my name is some crazy made-up fangled thing (I share the name of a certain cartoon Russian spy paired with Boris on Rocky and Bullwinkle 🙁 ). Then again, I guess this is the case for ‘king’ in which it’s replaced with the far more commonly used word — ‘kong’. I know I use ‘kong’ every day ^&%$#@! /s
And god forbid you look up a favourite restaurant from childhood or its name will start replacing commonly used words!
I also have some anger in me over auto-correct, it looks like 🙂
I’m not Natalie, Auto-Correct 🙁
Jack Bauer 24,
Sounds like someone drank the D&D cool aid.
With the whole COVID outbreak I completely missed this article but it still rattles me that actors/actresses have to defend the final season in anyway.
In terms of Nathalie/Missandei, I have some minor complaints of how her demise was executed (crammed into half an episode and in a disjointed manner). I do not have any complaints that was killed off (the colour of her skin should make no difference on whether the character lives or dies in my view). I guess her death was a plot device for pushing Dany fully mad and for Greyworm to commit genocide but the whole execution was poorly done. I can certainly see the book playing out differently although I could be wrong there.
Jon Snowed,
You’re hilariously late to every article.
Your statement is also a bit unclear to me. You start off by saying that it “rattles you” that actors have to defend the final season, but you then proceed to criticize the final season. I guess I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.