Nathalie Emmanuel Rejects Toxic Fan Backlash to Game of Thrones Season 8

Missandei Laugh Grey Worm Season 6 608

Game of Thrones has been resting peacefully for about 2 months now, or at least it would, if only anyone would let it. In the wake of the finale, fan fervor, enthusiastically by all accounts positive or negative, has truly reached heights the likes of which haven’t been seen since LOST ended in 2010. While the Internet was certainly ablaze back then – “I wasted all these years of my life all for this crappy ending!” was a common phrase even back in those simpler times – now, in the age of thinkpieces and online watercooler-ing, it seems as though the negative voices have emerged ever victorious amidst the discourse. And such, we have found ourselves with an echo-chamber of over a million signatures, smugly adorning the fan-led petition to remake season 8 with “competent writers.” Thankfully, our very own Nathalie Emmanuel (Missandei) is firmly not on board.

Speaking with TVLine, Nathalie concedes that “[I]t’s totally fine if you don’t like something.” She, like all of us, is an audience participant in enjoying art. But she hits the nail on the head when she says of the petition: “You can’t ask for receipts on art. You just can’t. The art has been created for you, and you can either choose to like it or not.” I feel very similarly to her. You can talk to death about what it should have been, but ultimately it isn’t yours. It isn’t your art. It is someone else’s art that you were trying to enjoy. Maybe you didn’t. And that’s OK! So, create your own art.

Nathalie also discusses her final scenes, and what worked for her as an actor: “I was very grateful for the strength that she had when she left. That was a performance choice for me…She’s not going to be crying. She’s not going to be stereotypically scared. She’s scared, but she owns it.” I’m sure I speak for many of us when I say I extend a hearty thank you to Nathalie for pouring her soul into Missandei over the course of 6 seasons of television. Ultimately she was herself “blown away” by the finale.

Check out the interview for several more quotes.

Up next for Nathalie? She’ll lead the cast in Hulu’s upcoming miniseries re-remake of Four Weddings and a Funeral. Her American accent actually sounds pretty damn good in the trailer, something you don’t always see in most shows or movies. If she brings the same passion to this new project as she always did to Game of Thrones, then it could truly turn into something special.

109 responses

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    1. #ThankYouDavidandDan

      Loved the entire series from start to finish. What a magnificent 8 seasons and a brilliant final 6 episodes. David and Dan outdid themselves.

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    2. Jack Bauer 24,

      I’m sorry but I have to disagree with you. David and Dan were the ones who pushed for 13 episodes to finish up the story after season 6, eventhough GRRM, HBO and the fans wanted more.

      I think almost everyone agrees that 13 episodes was not enough to give this amazing show a proper ending. (Only one episode about the battle with the white walkers that was teased for seven seasons, really?) Shortening the final seasons was a huge mistake in my opinion and that decision, which caused most of the fan criticism, is entirely on David and Dan.

      It’s sad because the actors do not deserve any of the hate. Their performances were amazing!

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    3. Jack Bauer 24,

      Yeah, the more I read your comments, the more I’m sure you’re here mainly to ignite the debate over the topic wheter the last season was magnificently great or horrifically bad.

      As I discussed it with many people here before, personally I disliked the season – actually, very much. I appreciate the work they put into the previous seasons though. Season 8 was neither what I expected it to be, nor I think it could stand up the community’s expectations once they decided to cut it short in 13 episodes for last two season.

      And even within the greatest apologists of season 7 & 8 there is a general agreement that things could have been done very much differently – better. Yet, every single comment I see that comes from you is absolutely non-critical, loaded with conformism, all-accepting and praising pretty much anything.

      I’m not here to take your right for expressing your own opinions. I just feel like this kind of behaviour is aimed to provoke – and I dislike it a lot. It’s not a healthy behaviour within the community itself; certainly not a one that could build a rational discussion. No matter what the post is about, you constantly write that you are: thankful for D&D job; that the season couldn’t be better; that D&D outdid themselves; that it was undeniably the best season ever – and so on…

      Yeah, sure, it’s okay to express yourself, but I began to wonder wheter it’s a little bit of trolling or something between the lines. I have never ever met a fan so all-accepting. Tell me, are you a 100% serious about the stuff you write? I have nothing against people expressing the joy they had from watching the last season, but you top them thrice.

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    4. When you create art and many of those who watch it don’t like it, you have a problem. Especially if the main reason for the dislike is the lack of explaining/amount of unanswered questions.
      Maybe your art is to complex and few understand it. Then, you also have a problem, especially if we are talking about the most watched TV show in history.

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    5. Adam,

      Hey Adam! Good to see you back. Last night, I happened to go back and read through your articulate comments among the 395 (!) total comments under the June 10, 2019 article, “GoT makes final emmy ballot submissions.”

      While I take a more schizophrenic approach to S8 – I rewatch the scenes I liked and let my recollections of the rest evaporate – I did enjoy reading what you wrote. Unlike many commenters, you didn’t just say, e.g. “D&D are hacks” or “that sucked.” You methodically explained why you disliked S8.

      Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to articulate the reasons for your conclusions about S8. I like reading intelligent writing.

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    6. That’s pretty dishonest to make a point about the art this particular way.

      As far as I find the request for season’s 8 remake remarkably foolish and repellent, I do understand these people. It has been said by Nathalie that “The art has been created for you, and you can either choose to like it or not.“. It would be a true statement if that was about the very first season of Game of Thrones. These series are unprecedented case. It was huge and many, many fans were absolutely involved both in watching it, and by far more in theoritizing. People lived by and with Game of Thrones. It’s been addictive 10 years. And it’s pretty dishonest in my opinion to simply say – it’s an art which is not yours – you can either accept or choose no to like it. Without the audience, you wouldn’t even call that an art; obviously, I mean, not in extent you can see it now.

      Definitely, there is no place for toxicity. Neither for retarded ideas like reshooting of the entire season. Disgusting thought.

      But on the other hand, in Nathalie’s response I see somewhat of ignorance. They have created a beautiful series. Engagement and joy were huge. Thye clearly messed up. People got mad, since the finale is some kind of the brightest jewel in the crown. It needs to be both attractive and rewarding. It’s hard to say which of them is less in season 8. Now, it seems like blame shifting goes toward the viewers – since “they had expectations” or they were too hyped (once the hyped was intentionally build).

      Imagine your favourite band. They create albums you love. And some they, they absolutely change the genre. It objectively feels wrong and bad; and the songs themselves are below the standard that the band previously presented. Of course, they have the right to do so. Of course you can either accept it or not. But here, the situation is much different. You don’t wait for ending aas there is none. There is no final album that would sum the artistic work of the band up.

      But with series there is such thing as the finale. And it’s absolutely understandable that people got mad. To me, saying that people wasted so many years by watching Game of Thrones is dishonest too, but I quite relate to them. It feels sad to see your favourite series so butchered. You don’t need to be a critic to say, that the amount of flaws is overwhelming.

      And I literally love the argument of: “so okay, go on – do your own art!“. That’s ridiculous. I used that argument when I was 15 years old to be honest. Game of Thrones with their loyal fanbase wouldn’t be what it was. So, they are part of the success, and part of that art.

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    7. Iul,

      The majority liked it. Over 100 million are watching GoT. So who cares what some wannabes on Reddit and YouTube are thinking?

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    8. HablaCarnage,

      Toxic Fandom is definitely a thing, just take a look at Star Wars, for many fans, nothing will ever be enough.

      However, i don’t think the backlash to S8 has anything to do with ‘toxic fandom’ it has alot more to do with the fact that Season 8 just was not very good, and is now joining the ranks of Dexter, HIMYM, True Blood etc. as one of the worst endings of a show ever.

      I personally can overlook most of the flaws of S8 and still enjoy it, but no avoiding that they exist, what saddens me most of all is what this has done to the shows reputation and legacy, regardless of the opinions you’ll find here, this show will not be going down in history as one of the greatest of all time, its crazy what 6 episodes can do, this should have been joining the ranks of Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad.

      Also, im rambling, but can i just say how disappointed i am in most of the cast who i have looked up to and wished great things for them over the years, to see them now turning on us because we were not happy with the finished product, is disheartening, every fan of this show has every right to feel betrayed by both the show and those involved.

      Honestly, i didn’t sign the petition for a re-do, but the millions they spend doing it may be worth it in the long run, they were expecting the shows legacy to keep the cash flow coming for decades (i.e Star Wars, LOTR, Harry Potter) it’s clear that isn’t going to happen now, nobody even cares about the prequel series anymore, and they don’t seem to be in touch with the fans either.

      I’ve been holding that in for a long time folks, had to express myself 🙂

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    9. Fun fact, if you really wanted, you probably could refilm GoT (or anything really) even with the original actors*, provided you wouldn’t distribute it (as in, sell it for other people’s consumption, TV, cinema or otherwise).
      So, if you really feel that way about GoT’s last season and you can put your money when your mouth is, the sky is the limit, really.
      In short yes, there’s a product, if you don’t like it, make your own. (Now hear the crickets where online idiots were raging. lol)

      *You’d really need to have quite the cash and/or clout to achieve that, obviously.

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    10. Light King,

      the majority most definitely did NOT like it. I was at my work BBQ last week, i work from home, i don’t get to see them often, i started the convo by saying ‘that final season of GOT sucked huh?’ everyone at my table hated it, then other people started giving their 2 cents, long story short, everyone hated it.

      That’s just one event, but nobody on my social media liked it either, i have over 700 contacts on fb, thats quite alot of hate for a final season, and most of those people are those ‘casual viewers’ you all claim don’t care about things like the plot, and character development. There is one person that i know that enjoyed this season, and one person only, my Mother. Even my grandparents didn’t like it.

      Those Youtube videos you mention also have millions of views, and likes, indicating that millions and millions of people disliked it. You’re claim has no merit.

      To add the abysmal critic reviews to that, it would seem the overwhelming majority hated S8

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    11. Personally I think it’s nonsense when certain cast members of a huge show like this say that the fans shouldn’t be allowed to critique it, that you “either like it or you don’t.” Small off-Broadway shows get savaged by critics and audiences and they have to take it, so why shouldn’t the GoT creators and cast have to hear what audiences have to say about the final season? (And truly, the quality of the show did start going downhill after it diverged from where the books left off.) Criticism IS an essential part of the artistic process, the dialogue between artists and their fans, and it should never be disregarded. The people who didn’t like GoT from the beginning are not the ones critiquing it; the criticism comes from those who loved the show and expected higher standards from it.

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    12. Right on, Nathalie! Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but as she says, asking for receipts on art is a fool’s errand, and I’ll never endorse or engage with the particular strain of viciousness and toxicity that has infected a certain subset of the fandom – namely, the sect that is directing its venom at people personally involved in the production (that’s a hard-learned lesson, to be sure). So I’ll just say that personally, I love her performance as Missandei, I love the character (heartbreaking as her ending was), I love Season 8, and I love Game of Thrones, now and always.

      Given the chance, I’ll always choose to celebrate everything this remarkable show gave us, and I hope to have many more opportunities to do so! On that front, I’m very much looking forward to the WOTW Awards for Season 8. Whenever they’re held, I’ll be there!

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    13. Light King,

      Where did you get that info from? I talked with family members, friends, colleagues from my workplace; I have seen a loooooot of reaction videos, in which even the hardest fanbois were at least mixed; I have seen many reviews; and at last – I have my very own opinion about it. And honestly, a large portion by far, was disappointed with what they saw.

      On the other hand, I am active on many forums and being honest, it’s hard to find people who absolutely adored it, or at least were satisfied. I won’t say there are no such people.

      I don’t really care about Metacritics, IMDB or Rotten Tomatoes. I do say that the overall reception of the season was, in my view, negative. There is nothing that could indicate that majority actually liked it. I have a good feeling, that you made it up, or your perspective is quite limited.

      I do care what people on Youtube and Reddit have to say. Maybe they come up with some great, deep analysis that can change my mind for good? I disliked the season and found reddit memes hillarious, especially on topics that were obviously ridiculous in final season, like Gendry being called Waters while bastard from Stormlands are called Storm.

      I wonder, where did you get that information/ impression from?

      TOIVA,

      No, you wouldn’t be able to refilm it for various reason. The most substantial one is that there are contracts and property rights that would not allow it. The second thing is that actors, even if that would be possible, wouldn’t go for that. The third pint is that you actually know that saying “sky is the limit” is at least dishonest. It’s convinient to say such things, but it’s also an easy way to shift the blame on people who are disappointed. Don’t you think it’d be silly for me to say: “paint your own Mona Lisa“, if you said you dislike it? No, kids argue this way.

      And the last thing – it’s just a cheap argument to say: “then do it yourself“. I used it, when I was 15. People do have a right to criticize, and in fact, people should be critical, especially about the art. What I stand in opposition with is the toxicity that came out of that crap, and it surpassed the idea of criticism by far. There, I’m at your side.

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    14. In some ways I was disappointed but I think when people look back in a few years they will largely be more appreciative of the final 2 seasons, especially once WoW is published.

      I wanted Jon to have a more fulfilling role in defeating the Night King, and I would have liked more answers to questions left unanswered but I still thoroughly enjoyed season 8 and found ot gripping in real time.

      GoT became a prisoner to its own success. I really am not sure they could have done this another 2 seasons on the scale necessary to pull it off while maintaining the cast with their ever expanding profiles.

      The ending was rushed but I can live with it. The show necessarily sped up over the last few seasons. I really think it had to.

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    15. I agree there is overreaction.
      The IMDb rating of the last episode is at 4.2. That is totally unfair. There is a lot of greatness in the last episode. It’s also stupid in some places, but it’s not a 4.2.
      And what’s even more interesting about it… It gets better the more you see it. But the first time I saw it, I hated it.

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    16. Iul:
      When you create art and many of those who watch it don’t like it, you have a problem. Especially if the main reason for the dislike is the lack of explaining/amount of unanswered questions.
      Maybe your art is to complex and few understand it. Then, you also have a problem, especially if we are talking about the most watched TV show in history.

      This. Not liking the story that was told is one thing, and I’m not a fan of people who insult the creators as humans instead of sticking with critiquing the work. But I’m really not a fan of creators telling the audience “you don’t get it” or “well, everyone wasn’t going to like it.” That’s patronizing and insulting and only makes those fans more angry. I don’t blame the actors for saying such things. Hollywood is small and you don’t burn bridges (see Katherine Heigl). But the ones who wrote the words and set the editorial direction shouldn’t look down on fans like that. It’s hard to hear criticism, and it can get mixed up in the hateful comments, but creatives have to try to split out the crazy and see the criticism’s merit. When the overwhelming critique is the same — the characterization became bullet points to the spectacle — it’s not us. It’s you.

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    17. Sandor:

      TOIVA,

      No, you wouldn’t be able to refilm it for various reason. The most substantial one is that there are contracts and property rights that would not allow it. The second thing is that actors, even if that would be possible, wouldn’t go for that. The third pint is that you actually know that saying “sky is the limit” is at least dishonest. It’s convinient to say such things, but it’s also an easy way to shift the blame on people who are disappointed. Don’t you think it’d be silly for me to say: “paint your own Mona Lisa“, if you said you dislike it? No, kids argue this way.

      And the last thing – it’s just a cheap argument to say: “then do it yourself“. I used it, when I was 15. People do have a right to criticize, and in fact, people should be critical, especially about the art. What I stand in opposition with is the toxicity that came out of that crap, and it surpassed the idea of criticism by far. There, I’m at your side.

      You’re very wrong, or you missed part of my post.
      If you film something for your own pleasure, it is your home video, you can call it whatever you like, you can invite whatever people you want to act in it, you can pay them whatever you agree on.
      I can make as many paintings at my home of Mona Lisa** as I want, provided I never try to sell them or show them in galleries, as good (or rather bad) as they would be.

      It’s all fine and dandy as long as you’re not showing* what you did/paid for to other people or even worse, try to make money off of it.

      *that much would be even even allowed in some select cases. In case you managed to create a video material in the likeness of GoT, I suppose showing it to your close family and the crew that helped make it is fine, but any sort of even partially public showing would be a quick way into court hell.

      **This is even more fun, there is no rights holder for centuries old paintings, I actually could even sell copies of mona Lisa provideed I simply made clear they are copies, and recent ones at that.

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    18. Well, it’s not Picasso, is it? (even though they probably aimed for it, lol).
      While Nathalie is basically right, it’s the wrong way of saying it, I think.
      They made millions from the story; the amount of commercialization is ridiculous; the hype before season 8 was ridiculous. The advertisement was sky-high. We even had large posters in my country, which is a tiny little country somewhere in Europe.
      When it’s that much expo, you can’t hold people from critisizing. It’s not like there are eight probable buyers of Picasso.
      It was a story, not a painting. Stories have beginning, middle and ending. They messed up the ending. It’s clear. It’s been known.
      I think the actors and perhaps the people that worked in the production are a bit confused. The criticism does not focus on what would the ideal story about this and this character be according to our own personal preferences. The audience doesn’t own the story, and if someone thinks he does, he’s an idiot, and those among the actors and the workers behind scenes should really close their ears to such nonsensical criticism.
      In this respect, it is really someone else’s art, and we don’t get to have a say to, i.e., the ending of Jon Snow or Daenerys Targaryen, or Tyrion Lannister. They can well have the ending the producers – story-tellers chose for them.
      That still doesn’t mean that the audience isn’t clever enough to recognize a plothole when one sees it, or locate the ooc moments all the characters suffered; or to notice the imbalance of the narrative that leaned heavily on Daenerys and Tyrion disregarding all others, including Missandei and Greyworm. There are issues of coherence that are blatant. All in all, it was an arrogant approach to the story, and it’s an arrogant approach to the millions of disappointed fans. I wonder, did they consult anybody about the story itself? Where there no discussions among the authors of the scripts? Was everybody ecstatic with the story? We have a saying in my country, “you can catch a smart bird by the beak”. Apparently they trusted so much in themselves that it backfired.
      A small example from the crown jewel ep 6 :
      Jon Snow goes to see Tyrion in prison, and Tyrion tries to convince him to kill Daenerys, pointing out that she just murdered a city. What does Jon Snow say? “She lost her friend”, meaning, Missandei. What goes through Jon Snow’s mind at that moment? A couple of guesses:
      #1 “What do you mean, old pal, why shouldn’t she wipe out a city for avenging her friend? Your sister blew up the Sept for much less!”
      #2 “Now you care! Where were you when she wiped out the Lannister army?”
      #3 “Wasn’t this like any other mass-murder Tuesday?”
      Indeed, Jon, what was so special about this Tuesday?
      Ok, let’s be serious.
      There was no other episode worse than 8.6. Not because Jon Snow killed Daenerys, or because he was exiled for saving the realm from a blood-thirsty dictator, but because absolutely nothing made sense from beginning to end.
      I’d take the Picasso if I could. Nathalie is right.
      And while remaking the finale or any part of season 8 is absolute nonsense, perhaps it is not a bad idea to re-edit it; wipe out conflicting dialog, add some scenes that they certainly filmed but didn’t make it to the screen, etc.
      But they won’t, because they’ll win so many Emmys that it won’t matter. And they’ll still shake their finger to the audience. “You think you had a say in this? No, you didn’t. It’s art”.

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    19. I agree with her. Entitled whiny fandoms are the worst and the problem seems to be growing. Can’t wait for the Emmy’s to put a true cap on what this stunning final season achieved. Hopefully the show will set even more records and put the hate into proper perspective.

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    20. For me, all the hate just gets tiresome and the more hate I read, I stop wanting to check back. Even WotW has its share of hate and rude comments now, so it just makes me sad, and it gets harder for me to want to check back. I personally still haven’t let certain things go from season 6 where I disagreed with the director’s (and/or writer’s) decisions, but I stopped writing books about my complaints a couple weeks after it happened. There really is no sense on dwelling on it. I might mention I had issues, but I won’t force everyone to read my tirade just because I can’t let it go. As the article said, the art is what it is, and you can like it or not. I had issues with certain things in season 8 when they happened, but some of them already are better for me after giving it some time. I also look forward to waiting a month or so and then doing a full re-watch to see how it feels with some distance. I chose to become a book reader, and now I’m really enjoying all of the extra details in the books. I’m guessing GRRM will take us to the same story points but he will fill in many more details along the way once he gets to the end, and I look forward to those details.

      I’m more interested in things about the prequel and other fantasy shows like “His Dark Materials” and the awesome looking “Carnival Row”. I will always be a totally obsessive GOT fan, but I can only read the hate for so long and then it just gets too painful to come back and read more.

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    21. Adam,

      This is a fan site. It’s purpose is for fans to express their love for the thing they are a fan of. Of course, respectful negative comments are certainly welcome, but if positive comments offend you so much, this clearly isn’t the place for you. Also, don’t use the word apologist. It’s a word used simply to invalidate one’s opinion. There are no book purists or show apologists. There are people who love the show, people who love the books, people who love both, and people who love neither. That is all.

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    22. Dont’ worry, the way the “creative arts” are going nowadays*, it will be remade in 15 years anyway… And the books still won’t be done!

      Personally I’d love to see this version (only half kidding…)

      *I never realized how much I would hate being shamelessly pandered to. My entire childhood right now is being remade, repeatedly sequeled, or re-released. It’s quite revolting how much of art is just in it for the $$$ – I’d take 100 imperfect NEW series like GoT was than one more reboot/remake/sequel

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    23. Oh dear, the comments are gonna be fun with this one.

      Anyway, Season 8:
      First two episodes were more or less on point, no real complaints there.
      Episode 3, better but not as good.
      Episodes 4-6, could take or leave. Not really a problem with what happened, but how it happened. My main nitpicks are:
      -Mad Queen/Tyrant Dany needed more than 1.5 episodes and a couple minor lines from Seasons 3-7 as buildup. In my head, this is what a theoretical Season 9 would entail.
      -Rhaegal’s death scene would’ve been somewhat more believable had there been some cloud cover.
      -Yes Sam, immediate major change in cultural institutions may not have worked out well for Dany, but should work this time. See: Bay, Slaver’s/of Dragons.
      -Jaime’s character development and redemption arc, Jon’s true heritage: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      Jon killing Dany worked better in retrospect, plus skidaddling off to basically join the wildlings is totally plausible for him considering it’s one of the few times in his life he was sort of at peace with himself.

      Doing a fan re-write of Season 8 helped put my dissatisfaction into perspective and warmed me up more to how things transpired. Still feel like it ended on kind of a whimper outside of Jon, the Starks, and Brienne.

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    24. QueenofThrones:
      Dont’ worry, the way the “creative arts” are going nowadays*, it will be remade in 15 years anyway…And the books still won’t be done!

      LOL! Sadly, likely true.

      I love the show. I wish D&D well in future endeavors that aren’t so soul sucking, because a show that large had to take its toll, and being fans now being eviscerated by other fans … there’s no skin thick enough for that. I’m totally looking forward to the prequel (and women in the writers room). And maybe one day, with time and distance, they’ll be able to say, yeah, we could’ve done this part or this story line better. JK Rowling could, and I respect her the more for it.

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    25. Ok I just finished rewatching season 7 and am curious howWOTW folk voted when asked to rate episodes. Can anyone get me that link pls?

      I tire of this debate. Makes me sad – GOT will remain one of the most amazing shows I have ever seen. Having just finished a rewatch, I just get more and more respect for everyone involved. I know that the last episodes were perhaps not to our liking. But what makes me sadder is that intelligent well spoken folk are fighting each other about their opinion on season 8. In each post the same people are making the same argument and not getting anywhere, just causing a great discussion forum into a place where no onw is listening. I would love some posts that moved away from that fight because people are just repeating themselves and the rage keeps building. Could we have some ‘Take a Bow’ posts? Or can we start nominating our favorites for season 8? Otherwise I am going to need to take a break here; there is too much hate and fighting in this world right now. I don’t need to see that with fans of a fantasy tv show
      Thank you

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    26. Tron79,

      Great minds think alike; I didn’t read this till after I wrote mine. Glad to see Im not the only one (maybe the two of us should get some popcorn and watch the action? Not_)

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    27. Generally I liked S8, but agree with some posters that it could have done with more episodes. My biggest issue was with E3 – It was so dark! Ok, my TV is pretty old and crappy, but even people with the latest 4K HD tellies complained about that also.
      My other bone of contention was with E6? It was fine to the point when Jon had no choice but to kill Dany and then Drogon toasted the iron throne, but it fell apart after that? The final scenes for me were somewhat dis-jointed and as if D&D just wanted to bring the series to the end ASAP. e.g Why did Bran as king need to chose a new Master of Whispers? With the powers he has and can link into the ‘Weir Wood Network’ he hardly needs spies to work for him 😉

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    28. ash:
      Tron79,

      Great minds think alike; I didn’t read this till after I wrote mine. Glad to see Im not the only one(maybe the two of us should get some popcorn and watch the action? Not_)

      Thanks for reading! Speaking of Season 7, I would gladly share some popcorn over watching Spoils of War. That’s probably my favorite of 7. I don’t recall the actual vote. Jaime’s charge through the flaming fields at Dany and Drogon is one of the best moments of the series for me and probably my favorite non Arya moment. And Shakman has to win the most surprisingly great director of that season. I didn’t know what to expect from him for being able to pull off such a huge battle when he was mostly known for comedies.

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    29. I respect and enjoy all of the work the actors and production put in throughout the series (even s7,8). They really did the most with the material D&D provided. However through the last two seasons when the WRITING diverged from the source material you cannot ignore the gaping plot holes and accelerated story line. It’s just not the same show. I find it hard to beleive the actors feel the same when in interviews from seasons past they react to theories that come true (Bran becoming king) with confusion and dismiss them as not making any sense. The fans are not crazy. The petition is though.

      I remember sitting and watching the final season and wondering what the hell I was watching at points. Where in seasons past I was getting pumped and excited as scenes unfolded. If you honestly think the final season was good then you’re crazy. The acting was great but the writing was just trash. It comes down to two men wanting to move on to the next project as fast as possible. I think one of them also wrote the Wolverine Origins story which should tell you all you need to know.

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    30. It’s hard for me to imagine that any person, much less one that calls himself a writer, would come up with pearls of the type of Bronn master of coins and lord of highgarden, king Bran the useless (because stories), Tyrion the idiot dwarf of the d*ck jokes, Jon justifying the murder of around 1 million people (because “mah queen”), etc, etc.

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    31. ash,

      I’m not a professional writer but I wonder if an article about the difficulties of adapting something (especially an unfinished work) were discussed. I don’t know if any of the people who run or contribute to this site are writers (though I think some may be if my memory serves me correctly) who could undertake such an article. Not about ASOIAF in particular but unfinished novels in general.

      An adaptation of Sanditon an unfinished novel by Jane Austen will be shown on (I think the BBC) TV later this year. I read recently that there us going to be some skinny-dipping (male not female) in it and I thought “What the heck” – I’m pretty sure Jane Austen didn’t include that!!!! Although GoT had a massive following I’ve known of some people who found it not to their taste and ceased watching it – too grimdark – and it was never going to have an ending where a dashing hero marries anbeautiful heroine and they live happily ever after (I never expected it to though I didn’t know what the end would be exactly – I had thought of Sansa being the YMBQ). Mr Martin does like his red herrings and maybe the subplot of Arya going after Cersei but then not killing her comes from him. I had read some complaints that Arya had gone to Kings Landing to kill Cersei and then backed out – well, when Arya backed out of said mission it was only after Dany had attacked the Red Keep using Drogon’s dragon fire, which Arya maybe hadn’t foreseen when she left Winterfell.

      The one person I know in real life who has read the ASOIAF books* decided fairly early on that the show wasn’t for her. I know this lady from a group for retired/semi-retired people I belong to and we manage to have different opinions on GoT (the show) without getting into a slanging match and pulling each others’ hair. (Though to be fair we are probably a bit “senior” in age for that). Mind you, when I waxed lyrical in an unfavourable manner about the writer of The White Queen (not a fan of her work personally) another member of the group called me to silence so as not to put a friendship (maybe more of a friendly acquaintanceship) at risk.

      *Actually I know someone else who has read the books but she lives in London and I live in the English midlands.

      There’s a saying “Opinions are like armpits – everyone has them and some of them stink”. I’ve said before I didn’t loathe the ending of season 8, GoT so maybe folk with a differing opinion think my opinion stinks (I do wash my armpits daily – honest!!!).

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    32. Sunfyre,

      The Emmys reward performance! It has nothing to do with like or dislike.
      The acting was great, the soundtrack was great, the directing was great, the cinematography was great, the special effects were great. It’s a bit unfair for the others to compete with GoT. GoT should have it’s own awards.
      The episode “The Long Night” must have many wins! Especially for directing and soundtrack.
      That being said, the Dothraki should have been around 40.000. They looked like 6000. I understand the Dothraki charge was the most feared war tactic. But the main nonsense was engaging in a straight fight (Jon mentioned that in S08E02) with an enemy that turns to his side any dead person. I’m not even going to mention the “safe” crypts, the lack of importance Jon Snow had, or the fact that you don’t hide from dragon fire behind a thin wall (see S08E05 – which I totally agree with. Dragon fire creates an explosion, it’s not just heat). The Emmys don’t care about that.

      What is the moral of this story ? Don’t do good. Don’t take responsibility to change things, because those around you will oppose you, cast you down and throw you to the dumpster.
      How can you symbolically destroy the throne and all that it meant, and right after that you replace it with another position of ultimate power, for life, to which anyone (not only the heirs) can compete (well, actually anyone can start a war for) ? There is no such thing as absolut good or absolute bad. What is good for some, it’s bad for others. Conflict is inevitable.
      Oh, and the rest of the world ? To hell with it ! We only care about Westeros. If someone will take action to fix things, he/she/they will be killed or thrown to the dumpster in the process. People should deal with their problems, like they “did” for thousands of years.

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    33. Go Nathalie!

      And regarding some comments ive read in here, I personally loved season 8 very much!!! I had small issue but superbly trivial in the grand scheme of things. And I know soooo many people in real life and on this fan website that love season 8 too 🙂

      And the more I rewatch it the more I love it. I have never been so emotional as much as I was watching the finale. (For a fictional TV show). I was ugly crying and ugly laughing… it was great hahaha

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    34. The same old circle jerk of opinionated people insisting that their opinion is morally superior. Nothing new to see here.

      “I think season 8 was the greatest thing in the fookin world and anyone who didn’t like it is a “hater”. Oh by the way, the more I speak, the more I reveal that I actually had my own issues with season 8, but the OTHER people who didn’t like season 8 are just haters I tell ya!”

      “Season 8 was a dumpster fire, almost no one liked season 8, D&D are hacks, and anyone who actually liked season 8 is too easily pleased and just tuned in for the “Disney” and “fan service” endings even though fan service usually means pleasing the audience despite the fact that I am claiming barely anyone liked the ending.”

      Did I pretty much cover it?

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    35. The show is over. Why should we continue to talk only about negative opinion? It’s not like “constructive criticism” excuse can be used. Nothing will be changed.

      The fandom from now on should be place to celebrate GoT. Those who think it doesn’t deserve celebration any more should just move on.

      People who constantly complained for years said they just watch to see the end. Now you saw it and take your negativity somewhere else.

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    36. If one day you made the sculpture out of horse poop, and call that art… not many people will like that.
      I hate most how actors afraid to speak up! It is like in that kids book about naked king. People see that king is naked, but afraid to admit it.

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    37. Ten Bears,

      Wow 🙂 first of all, thank you very much for your kind words. Secondly, I appreciate the time you spent on looking for my comments! And I also would like to say, that getting into wild discussion was definitely a great and undoubtly creative time 🙂

      Don’t be mislead though, I too have many of my opinions based on emotions. Nevertheless, I try not to blindly “follow the herd”. It feels really good you saw it 🙂 thanks again!

      Young Dragon,

      Don’t get me wrong. I do not want to bash anyone for expressing own opinions, especially on the platform solely made for such activity. My point is that I have a strange feeling of Jack igniting the emotional discussion that most certainly leads nowhere. It’s very possible it’s just me interpreting his words wrong. I didn’t mean to be rude. I used the word ‘apologist’ to emphasise his strong position over perfection of the final season, while it objectively saying had a few serious flaws. Maybe I’m too much i to rational/critical thinking, but I found such comments off-putting and unneccessarily provoking – hardly in productive way.

      I apologise, both you and Jack if you feel offended by what I wrote. Hope we can find some common ground for future discussion, especially when the sequel be there, and I will stay 🙂 have fun!

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    38. I refuse to accept that the whole conversation in this fandom from now on should be about relationship between Benioff and Weiss and people who didn’t like the season.

      There is a lot more to talk about than personalities of showunners and their feeling or feeling of people who hate S8.

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    39. Mr Derp,

      To add, people are simple minded if they enjoyed the big explosions over the story in the last few seasons.

      i personally liked this season more than 7 and 2. i re-watched both recently. season 7 is really were the problems started. the last 3 episodes didnt move the story much. they needed to wrap alot more in season 7 then they did. season 8 was rushed because of this.

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    40. Anna,

      So? Nathalie points still stands – Game of Thrones was ultimately Dan and Dave’s show so they did what they wanted to do with it, what they thought they could do. It was their prerogative. They were not beholden to any of us. I know that entitlement is kind of big now a days but that is not how art or creativity works. Art or creative works are hardly ever created to please a public, a true artist would never ever create something born out of necessity to please others. No one is saying that individuals can’t be mad or can’t be sour at how the ending unravel, opinions are a dime a dozen. What it is being said is that some people have reached unseemly levels of douchebaggery when expressing that opinion. The worst part is that people who are the loudest about criticizing D&D’s writing are likely people who have never written anything of worth themselves.

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    41. Dee Stark,

      It’s all good Dee, I’m not annoyed, even though it is Monday, LOL 🙂 . I’m just a little tired of the same conversation happening over and over again every time I come here now with the same usual suspects repeating the same opinions as if regurgitating it for the 100th time is somehow going to change other people’s minds despite the fact that the previous 99 times didn’t.

      There are people on these boards that claim anyone who didn’t like season 8 is just a “hater” or are “entitled” and then there are those who say that anyone who liked the final season are too easily pleased, etc. These are all passive aggressive ways to insult and invalidate other people’s opinions.

      I’m just tired of it from both sides.

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    42. House Barrett,

      Sorry but my experience has been the complete opposite with family, friends and coworkers. Maybe you shouldn’t have started off it Hey season 8 sucked. I usually just ask what they thought of it and I would say that 90% of the people who I know in real life thought season 8 was good and they liked how things were tied up. Mostly positive a few didn’t like it. So I don’t think anyone can claim MOST hated/liked it. Worry about your own perception and move on. Toxic fans oh heck yeah it exists. It didn’t end the way you wanted it to? Well get over it! It didn’t end the way I wanted it end but I still enjoyed it. The toxic internet hate is really so funny I guess some people don’t have a real life.

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    43. MiaMoon: Worry about your own perception and move on

      You could also try taking your own advice.

      MiaMoon: It didn’t end the way you wanted it to? Well get over it! It didn’t end the way I wanted it end but I still enjoyed it. The toxic internet hate is really so funny I guess some people don’t have a real life.

      This is a prime example of what I’m talking about. You tell someone to worry about their own perceptions, but you felt the need to tell someone that they don’t have a life because they don’t share your own perception. Toxic internet hate is real, but why sink to their level?

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    44. Mr Derp,

      “Did I pretty much cover it?”

      You forgot a few tired old cliches from obviously highly qualified, anonymous Emmy-winning screenwriters (*cough*), e.g.:
      “Lazy writing”; “plot holes”; “plot armor”; “dumbed-down”; “out of character behavior”; “dropped storylines”; “butchered [insert character’s name here]”; “Mary Sue”; “heel turn”; “retcon”; “storytelling sacrificed for spectacle”; and so on.

      I will say this: In retrospect, I do wish they would’ve excised the High Sparrow and Euron, reduced Ramsay’s torture porn scenes, and used the freed-up time for…MORE ASNAWP! And more direwolves.

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    45. Jared,

      “I’m very much looking forward to the WOTW Awards for Season 8. Whenever they’re held, I’ll be there!”

      ____
      Me too! WOTW Awards are more important than the Emmys.

      Also, I am hoping that in addition to S8 Awards, we’ll have Awards for all eight seasons/73 episodes. (Not that I’d presume to impose on the site’s staff to undertake the arduous tasks of vetting nominees, compiling vote totals, etc.)

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    46. Tron79: ….Speaking of Season 7, I would gladly share some popcorn over watching Spoils of War. That’s probably my favorite of 7. I don’t recall the actual vote. Jaime’s charge through the flaming fields at Dany and Drogon is one of the best moments of the series for me and probably my favorite non Arya moment…”

      Well now that you brought it up, my favorite Arya moment of S7 was in S7e4. When Pod and Brienne were sparring, and then the camera switched to the back of cleaned-up Arya’s head as she entered the courtyard, my Geekometer dialed way up to 11 and stayed there for the next five minutes.

      Arya twirling her dagger before showing it to Brienne? ✅

      (Arya unsheathing Needle)
      Brienne: “You can’t use that, my lady. It’s too small.”
      Arya: “Don’t worry. I won’t hurt you.”
      😉✅

      Arya doing the hand-to-hand dagger flip she’d reprise in S8e3? ✅

      Brienne: “Who taught you to do that?”
      Arya: “No one.” 😆🤣 ✅
      Night King: “F*ck! I missed Episode 4!” 🤢

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    47. Black Raven: Why did Bran as king need to chose a new Master of Whispers? With the powers he has and can link into the ‘Weir Wood Network’ he hardly needs spies to work for him

      Interesting point!
      Perhaps because Bran sometimes needs to be told where to look? He can’t be looking everywhere at once all the time.

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    48. Tron79,

      (Continued from 1:27 pm)

      After seven seasons of Arya in boy’s clothes or schmattes* and arriving in WF in a nondescript cloak at the beginning of S7e4, it was delightful to see her with a new hairdo, spiffy combat suit and to-die-for boots.

      at 0:18 – 3:59

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mWKRXV7gFk

      * I didn’t know what a “schmatte” was until I looked it up. It’s Yiddish for “a ragged or shabby garment,” like a cruddy threadbare nightgown.

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    49. I think big corporations, especially Marvel Studio, encourage fan entitlment, because everything is “made for fans” now. It paid off for Marvel Studio, because their fans are celebrating when Marvel makes billions of $$$. lol

      They feel like they own Marvel, when corporation succeeds it feels personal, like their own success. and Marvel Studio encourages that feeling because it is extremely profitable. They just create fan service movies and then earn billions.

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    50. mau,

      Could be right, but I personally think the entitlement has always been there. Social media just gives people an easy platform to make their ramblings heard now, whereas they previously could only bitch and moan to those that they encountered in real life. It’s a built-in audience ready to give anyone attention at a moment’s notice, whether that attention is good or bad.

      Every average Joe/Jane out there now has access to correspond with celebrities and the people who create the shows/movies that they like to watch. Especially disturbed/socially inept people that don’t understand how to act rationally. There’s no filter. Nothing to stop them from spewing bile at a moment’s notice. They previously had no access, but thanks to social media, now they do. They can just hide in anonymity with everyone else and blend in until their trollish behavior inevitably comes out, but by then it’s usually too late.

      It’s kind of like Annie Wilkes from the movie Misery. No one really knew anything about how crazy she was because she pretty much kept to herself and looked “normal”. But, the moment that she was able to get access to her favorite writer, it was all too clear how emotionally unhinged she was. Instead of accepting that her favorite book character Misery Chastain was to be killed in the next book, she threatened his life and kept him hostage until he changed everything to fit her personal preferences.

      There’s a lot more Annie Wilkes out there than we previously thought.

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    51. Mr Derp,

      Maybe you are right about social media. I read recently that the first known fan outrage was against Arthur Conan Doyle in 19th century when he killed Sherlock Holmes. Diana Gabaldon’s(writer of Outlander) son talked about her problems with fans. And her work was never on GoT level of popularity.

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    52. TOIVA,

      Yeah, I missed the point of distribution. I got to hand it to you, apologies.

      Which still doesn’t mean that actors would be willing to take a part in such a project. But it’s irrelevant now, since you pointed out that I missed the crucial part of your post.

      Nevertheless, I’m still between the idea of “free interpretation of art” and “confromist view” in which art became meaningful becase of the audience, therefore authors have some “obligations” toward this audience. I understand clearly both positions. But I’m not sure it would be fair to compare TV series with high-art in that dilemma.

      You can see the painting, and with disliking it, simply forget about it. Author of paintings has no limits in quantity. There is no beginning and the end for him. You can like his first painting and hate another 99.

      There’s a clear distinction between paintings/music and books/movies.

      The latter have a beginning and finale. These start a story, which needs a conclusion. You invest the audience both in time/anticipation and emotionally. And as far as the art still belongs to the author, there is a different perspective when it comes to the audience. You can expect a new music album of your favourite band to be a masterpiece, but if it’s nott – well, there’s another chance (as long as the band stay together). If you want a new painting to be awesome and it appears to be awful, well… there’s another chance until the painter lives and have passion to paint. But when the last books don’t meet your expectations – well, you can still count for retcons and fan fiction 🙂 yeah, there is a huge problem about it. There’s simply no another chance.

      If only you could just forget and move forward… but for some it was a great part of their lives and thoughts. And to get something disappointing, like… truly disappointing for many, it’s saddening and sometimes frustrating. There’s no more chances. You can’t expect season 9. That’s why the finale always has to be huge, both artistically and metaphorically. After all, it’s the conclusion, and there’s only one shot.

      To me, season 8 didn’t stand up to the expectations. And it’s not about the wild theories people created. I judge it mainly on the basis of a regular show. And for me, it just failed as a story. So yeah, when it comes to other mediums like books and TV series, there is another point of view – it’s had an ending, which should feel rewarding. I don’t think Game of Thrones, while having a burden of being the biggest show ever created, has done the job well.

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    53. Mr Derp,

      “Social media just gives people an easy platform to make their ramblings heard now, whereas they previously could only bitch and moan to those that they encountered in real life…”

      ________
      That’s cyberwhinging.

      “Your fingers are typing and you’re complaining about someone. That’s cyberwhinging.”
      – S. Clegane

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    54. Sandor,

      Issue is not being disappointed with S8, the problem is when people try to act like it “objectively true” that S8 is bad and no other opinion is possible, otherwise you have low IQ, you are apologist or whatever.

      And problem is when people want D&D’s careers to be destroyed, when they harass and threaten them and some actors and so on. Problem is when you are criticising S8 in a way that you basically insult anyone who liked it.

      I’m not talking about you right now, because I don’t know what arguments you used, but if you are almost mocking people for liking S8, because all your friends didn’t you are part of the problem. Becuase we don’t care what anyone’s friends thought, we don’t know your friends, we don’t know why they disliked it and I don’t even see what kind of argument is that. We don’t even know why those friends even liked or watched GoT.

      If a person shows true respect to other people’s opinion, that’s fine, but if you try to say that something is wrong with me for liking S8, then there is a big problem.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Anna,

      Their first plan was 10 episodes of 50 minutes. We got 13 with longer episodes. We got more then their first plan that they had years ago.

      As for George, yes he wanted more episodes. More episodes and more seasons would have meant more time for him to finish the books before the last episode would air. He would have want 50 seasons if that was needed for him to finish the books on time.

      As for HBO, of course they wanted more seasons, like any broadcaster with their biggest show. There’s a reason why for instance Supernatural will have 15 seasons next year (finally the last), why Grey’s anatomy still is busy even when they finished 15 seasons and already 2 more are being made. Because it’s their cash cow. The show that brings the most bucks into their pockets. Same with Game of Thrones. HBO wants more seasons not because of artistically reasons, (it was already know for the fans that HBO doesn’t know what happens in a season and that D&D got freedom what was needed so that argument is non-valid because they didn’t know anything artistically that was needed for the show), HBO wanted more seasons because Game of Thrones gave them 5 times more money then the second most watched show of HBO. Would you want as a broadcaster lose that show that bring in the big bucks? No, you want more seasons.

      As for my view
      1. Would more episode have been better? Yes and no. Yes because the story would feel more stretched even when it is not. And no, because having it in one episode works too.
      2. Would it have been better if every episode would have been longer with the same amount of episodes? Probably yes. Maybe a couple short scenes would have been enough. Was in needed? No.

      But this point could be made for many shows and movies. Even lord of the rings the book-fans had mayor problems with it that it missed things and that it was rushed. And at the same time non-book readers found it too slow. And for me? It was perfect. Same thing happened with season 8. I read complaints about it was rushed, it was too slow and nothing happened. And others liked it like me.

      But still what I found strange about the whole petition and major complaints about the season and with the “this is how it should have been” scenario’s of those complainers, is that it is never about needing more time or episode. It was always about plotpoints, about the WHAT happened. Jon not being king but Bran. Dany turning to the villain instead of the main hero. Having the White walkers not in the final and defeated in kings landing. So for me, I don’t take those complains serious because they are not talking about more time, building the moments better. But about letting the story going into a different direction.

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    56. Adam,

      The problem is, every show ever made you could say: That could have been better! It needed more action, it needed less action, it needed more time, less time. It needed that moment, that moment should not have been there. There was too much drama, too less drama etc. There’s always room for making things better, that’s why we still have new shows being made in the hope they do a better job.

      My favorite show is Breaking bad. but still the first season, was so slow that I could understand people not watching any further. It also had the episode the fly that could have been a 10 minute moment in another episode. It has it’s problems. Or maybe lost another I liked from beginning till end, had it’s pacing problem because they let ABC decide to make 6 season instead of their plan of making 5. And the writers strike didn’t help it either. And I can name from any show or movie a problem with it, nothing is perfect.

      And the problem with GoT is that people had their theories that were too much fantasy based or too expensive so they didn’t take into account what was needed to make that happen. Would I have liked a double White walker episode. Yes. Could it have been made? No, budget reasons.

      And what I personally hate the most is that most of the complainers of season 8 (at least in my family and friends circle) are the Downloaders. The ones paying nothing, not contributing to a bigger budget for the show, paying nothing but expect HBO to put millions more into the show. So that’s also something that bugs me personally.

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    57. Adam,

      Jack is very passionate about the show and is appreciative of the hard work D&D have put into every season, as am I. I highly doubt he is attempting to ignite an argument. He may also be overcompensating for the intense hate D&D have been receiving since the finale.

      I’ve been called a show apologist since the season 4 finale, so perhaps I’m being too sensitive. I just don’t think it adds anything to the conversation.

      You’re apology is appreciated, but unnecessary.

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    58. Off topic:
      Kit Harington has submitted The Iron Throne as his episode and Lena Heady submitted The Bells.

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    59. Iul,

      The biggest problem I had with GoT was that in the earlier seasons they tried to hard too make things easier to understand for the casual viewers. I think for shows like GoT or other complex shows, you should just watch what happen and being able to connect the dots. That’s something I liked with the books, many of the big mysteries are being told in a way that you need to puzzle and analyse it to get the answer. Look at how book readers found the answer to R+L=J. Or other theories. Shame that the show was made easier for the bigger audience.

      Look for instance at why Leftovers was still a success at the end, because it didn’t make the story easier for a bigger audience to understand. It told their story, he ones that could understand the story stay with it and liked it (it’s highly rated) and the ones didn’t stopped watching. Unfortunately GoT needed the budget for battles etc, so it needed to catch a bigger audience, so it needed to show things more easier on screen. And that’s also why some things are maybe told in a easier way in the last season, with a take-it or leave it attitude.

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    60. Sandor,

      I think it’s more like this. I watched Gotham the show. I liked it very much, I was a fan. But I disliked the final season, and I hated the ending. Still that is not a fault of the show and the writers. It’s just, that ending wasn’t for me. But still many liked that final season and final episode. Should the writers just have changed it too appeal me? Or should I go with, it wasn’t for me, but others liked it, so what the writers wanted to achieve still happened but not with me.

      For GoT it’s more complex. It would never have a ending that would have been liked with more then half of the audience. Half the audience would always have hated the ending, for instance.
      – Half the fans wanted a high fantasy ending with the white walkers. Half wanted a human based ending about the character side of the show.
      – a part of the fans wanted Daenerys on the throne, other part Jon, other smaller part Sansa, others none of them because it would be too obvious, and a part didn’t want no king or queen at the end. The bigger groups Jon and Dany would hated if their character wasn’t on the throne.
      – A group wanted a ending where the main characters lived, another wanted a ending where everyone dies.
      – Some wanted a happy ending with Jon and Dany happy together ruling with a baby. Others would have hated such a ending.
      – Some wanted Dany as the villain in the end, some want her as the absolute hero in the end.

      And I can name many more. No matter what half the fans would have hated the ending no matter how they told it.

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    61. House Barrett,

      They are not turning against the fans. They just gave a wise lesson about art. It’s the job for the artist to make the art. And it’s the job for the viewer to like it or not. And not a single one of the cast is saying that people should love the last season and who doesn’t are toxic. What they are talking about is the fans that express their dislike of the last season with a signing a petition, with a message that the cast crew and all need to do it again, dismissing their hard work, even when those fans say that that’s not what they meant and that they are happy with the crew and actors contribution, that’s exactly how it looks and feels. Or the bullying towards D&D calling them names and worse. Look up some of those comments and tell me is that normal or toxic?

      As for Breaking Bad. Personally I think Breaking Bad is the better show, but GoT had the better ending. Personally I didn’t like the main-character dies in the last scene kind of endings. It’s overdone even before BB ended. I liked the drama in the last episode, with Walters family but not so much the last-villain to be defeated and Walter’s demise. (Personally I hope we get a future season in Better Call Saul in which Walter is alive)

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    62. TOIVA,

      Only problem is, the actors are fine with the ending and would not film a new version even when given the big bucks, they can get that from somewhere else. They moved on. Only a hand-full of actors are open to film some additional scenes if needed. Emilia is up for it, she would like to be Dany again. She had a special bond with the characters. So that’s maybe possible some additional scenes. But no, never a re-film.

      But as you stated and I have to give that to you, if people want more in season 8. Just give HBO some money and I mean a couple of millions and see where it goes.

      Tyrion,

      I don’t think they have a problem with that. A normal conversation where they receive critic (which they could use to better their next projects). But not the abuse they got with name calling, insults and dead-treats. I don’t think anyone would go taking critic from somebody that is giving them a dead-treat or calling them Dumb and Dumber etc.

      Sandor,

      imdb and RT was received with fake accounts. That was being fueled on reddit how to make fake accounts. You can even see that that happened if you look at how many people voted for all the episodes. Season 8 had 5 times more voted then the average season 7 episode.

      Reddit also has the toxic side with the dead-treats. Not saying everyone has it there, but for me I would never take that serious. Same with YT the problem is everyone can make a video there. (which most of the videos are about what happened in season 8 not the how, they are only happy if Dany stayed good and Jon was king in the end and the white walkers were there till episode 6). The problem is that everyone can make a video is the following: I can make a video about good french food. The problem is, I don’t know anything about what is good French food. See what I mean? There’s no filter for people who know what they talk about.

      As for my circle. Around a quarter of the people I knew were really happy about the end result. rating a 9 or 10. Half the people were more on the it was ok not amazing but ok, 6/8 rating. And a quarter didn’t like it at all and would give it a rating of 1 till 5.
      And what I saw with that group was, they all downloaded it. There were mistakes in their thinking, questions that the final didn’t answer in their minds were: Which kingdoms are in the 6 kingdoms. Where are the Baratheons? And questions like that. And it was the watching a tv-show while looking on a phone group. At least in my circle.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Ten Bears,

      I thought the same re awards, but thinking how much work was done last (?) year for seasons 1-7, I can’t imagine how you’d fit 8 in the mix. Also would be interesting to see how the Fandom-Wide Survey would change, but again, doubt seriously that would happen; too mcuh work involed and suspect James Rivers is on to other things (He, an Petra, did do an amazing job putting that together).

        Quote  Reply

    64. Ten Bears,

      I didn’t know what a “schmatte” was until I looked it up. It’s Yiddish for “a ragged or shabby garment,” like a cruddy threadbare nightgown.

      One of my favorite Yiddish words; cant tell you how much my mom used it in the 70s re my clothing choice at the time….

      Q

        Quote  Reply

    65. Iul:
      I agree there is overreaction.
      The IMDb rating of the last episode is at 4.2. That is totally unfair. There is a lot of greatness in the last episode. It’s also stupid in some places, but it’s not a 4.2.
      And what’s even more interesting about it… It gets better the more you see it. But the first time I saw it, I hated it.

      True, first time i was, what? is that it. I was so hung up with what I though was missing that I didn’t cry with even the hug from Jon and Arya at the end. And now that I know, this is the ending. I watched it without any notion what could happen, and I cried with those moments. I could get into the moment itself. It grew on me very fast.

      Dee Stark,

      Sweet Dee (nickname of Always Sunny in Philadelphia), I’m with you I loved the final season. Had my issues like I have with every show I watched. But I just loved the ending of GoT. The emotion for me is what matters. I liked the Dany ending because I could sense what Dany was and I saw it in myself, what I would do if I would be in power, how far would I go to better the world. And I probably would become a delusional madman like her. And at the same time I saw that she try to do good in a bad way, a very bad way. I cried for her, I cried for Jon. I cried for Drogon. Mommy’s gone my sweet Drogon, fly away my hot flying doge.

      And I felled for Sansa, all she wants is her family with her, but she let them go, living her live alone, yes she is happy to become queen, but she wants Jon, Arya and Bran with her. Together as a pack.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Mr Derp,

      No you didn’t cover it. Most people are really civil here, the ones that liked it and the ones that don’t. Nobody is morally better because of a opinion of tv-show. Some liked it some don’t. And most of us except the opinion of others.

      People only have problems with the extremes. Personally I have more problems with the very negative ones, instead of the very positive ones. Simply because I can be dragged into other’s state. If people are very negative, I will become negative and depressed. If others are positive I always become more positive. So that’s why I personally have no issue with somebody overly enjoying the final season, but not when they are very negative, I’m coming to WoW to feel better not feel worse.

        Quote  Reply

    67. So it’s okay that people don’t like this piece of art, yet they are also smug when they voice their dislike. Got it.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Stew,

      Agree. I wish they just left the beyond the wall episode (still an episode I liked very much on its own), and just went with the silly horn of winter. And be done with it in a scene or 2 of 10 minutes max. Just ignore Cersei, and Jaime would come north, because he know his brother. If Tyrion believe in grumpings so would he.

      I also think they should have made the Dany character move fast in season 6 to 7 to the dark side. It was very slow there.

      Young Dragon:
      Off topic:
      Kit Harington has submitted The Iron Throne as his episode and Lena Heady submitted The Bells.

      Both great choices.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Ten Bears,

      Nothing yet. Sorry. I’m betting it’s going to be The Long Night because it had her big moment, but I agree with what you said the other day about The Bells being a stronger episode for her. Either way, I hope she wins.

        Quote  Reply

    70. kevin1989,

      The problem is that everyone can make a video is the following: I can make a video about good french food. The problem is, I don’t know anything about what is good French food. See what I mean?”

      ______
      I’m a little dense tonight. I don’t see what you mean. If you have a favorite French food restaurant that makes consistently delicious appetizers, main courses and desserts, wouldn’t you feel confident saying that you do know something about good French food?

      I would then challenge anyone who dares to say”You know nothing, Kevin1989.”

        Quote  Reply

    71. kevin1989,

      Yea I agree. I’m not a fan of the horn of winter in the books. But it could have really helped in the show. I actually like a lot of the dialogue between the characters and visuals in the episode. Great stand alone episode just hurt the overall story progression a bit. Those last three episodes could have set the final season up much better. Maybe 8.1 is the final episode of season 7 with the wall coming down as the final scene. Then the long night could have started in episode 2 and be finished in episode 3. Still think 2 episodes for the 4th episode of season 8. Danys darkness should have been more focus in season 7 it was there but not enough. But over all my opinion of the show doesn’t change I still think it’s great. It’s easy to nit pick a show or movie after it has aired.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Young Dragon:
      Ten Bears,

      Nothing yet. Sorry. I’m betting it’s going to be The Long Night because it had her big moment, but I agree with what you said the other day about The Bells being a stronger episode for her. Either way, I hope she wins.

      On rewatch, I’m just loving Maisie Williams’s performance in S8e2, i.e., what I call Arya’s “interrogation, cross-examination, and seduction of Gendry.” A confident, alluring young woman who had a guy flummoxed, stuttering – and completely entranced. However, I know there were some fans who felt a little squeamish about watching who they remember as that adorable little girl from S1, in a sex scene eight years later in S8. (Fun fact: Girls do grow up into self-assured young women.) The strange thing is that all of my women friends were cheering her on, saying things like “Last night on earth? I’d definitely hit that!” It was only a few of my guy friends who got a little weirded out. I was initially stunned that the show “would go there.” However, I thought Maisie Williams sold it beautifully.

      Anyway, I hope she submits S8e5, and I too hope she wins. (No offense to Lena Headey, whom I adore; it’s just that S8 was an ASNAWP showcase.)

        Quote  Reply

    73. mau,

      It looks like you strawman my argument. I think I said very clearly – I have no problem with expressing own opinion by people whatsoever. I just found this particular example provoking. And that’s it. I might simply be wrong.

      I also never said that the season was objectively bad, although I personally find it truly bad. I said that it had objectively saying a few serious flaws. That’s a huge difference. There are so many things one could count as flaws – both from logical and artistic point of view.

      Didn’t say that my, or my friends opinions matter. A person I wrote to, said, that MAJORITY liked the season. Maybe I have no knowledge of that, but literally most of things seems to point into quite a different conclusion. And since the person I wrote to didn’t bother to share where he/she has that information from, I shared where I do get my info from.

      You simply took most of my points out of context trying to attack the reason behind it. Unfair 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    74. Sunfyre,

      It does not matter how many Emmy’s this season gets in September it will not make the majority of viewers like it. They don’t and they won’t period. If brussel sprouts got an award for best veggie of the year would that make you automatically turn to liking them? (replace with whatever food you dislike.)

        Quote  Reply

    75. You know what I wish? I wish that instead of the conversation being mostly about loving the season/ending or hating it that we would have gotten a more nuanced, fully fleshed out, interesting ending that we would actually be talking more about, um, how it actually ended. I never envisioned this would be the type of discussion being had at the end of GOT. IF it had the exact same ending, but with more episodes and build up and true to character dialogue etc. we would have the actual material to think about and discuss. Would have been nice.

        Quote  Reply

    76. I think that Nathalie Emmanuel is right on the money with her assertion. Me, personally, loved “Game Of Thrones”, beginning to end, first scene to last scene. Is it perfect? Nope. But that is not why I watched it. I didn’t seek something flawless, or expected GOT to cater to my particular expectations and wishes of what should happen and how it should unfold…or end for that matter.

      I appreciated the characters, the story, the work from all involved in front and behind the camera, and just enjoyed the ride that all eight seasons provided…

        Quote  Reply

    77. Danny,

      I’m seeing this sort of comment a lot… about how the artist is not beholden to the audience.

      I’m a classical musician and my grandfather is a professional one who even snagged a Grammy nomination… I remember him taking me aside one day and going on about how the audience is *everything* and without an audience, art has no meaning or worth. He literally called art that doesn’t see the light of day masturbation, which this isn’t… But no, I have to strongly disagree with this notion as an artist.

      The audience, and the interaction between the art/artist, is EVERYTHING, the alpha and the omega of what gives that art worth… and as someone who was very disappointed in Season 8, it’s upsetting to be condescended to and be told I don’t matter.

        Quote  Reply

    78. mau,

      And if you read my comment, I asked for the source. So what you linked is exactly what I asked for. I accept the poll. Nevertheless, the same person said it’s around 100 milion people watching Game of Thrones, so if I were to be consistent, 2200 people participating in the poll is not representive. But yeah, there is no way to ask 100 milion viewers for their honest opinions, therefore I won’t dig-in simply to prove my point, that’d be dishonest to the fact you presented.

      Be aware though, that although reviews on sites like Metacritic, IMDB and RT may not reflect the reality, just like Reddit (@freefolk) being the collection of enraged fans, Youtube reactions of some true fans undoubtly bear a value. Personal experience, as I stated before, is definitely not reliable, but seeing people crying over every episode previous to season 8, and then looking at they mixed faces as they go through the finale gives a huge impression of failing they expectations.

      Anyway, thanks for the poll, I was not aware of that. Cheers!

        Quote  Reply

    79. kevin1989,

      Sandor,

      Yes, obviously getting the actors to take part in your personal ideal reshhoot of S8 would be extremely difficult (I hope I did state that in my original post up there), though with unlimited ressources, I believe not impossible.
      Then again, prosthetics and VFX are so advanced today you might not even need the original actors…

      Sandor, as far as your comparison goes, there is a good point with time investment in a “story” in the art. However I would counter that the way you tend to look at paintings is typically in galleries, usually in an exposition set up in a specific way and order to also tell a story. If you like the paintings in the first two rooms but everything that follows is rubbish to you, would you not feel that same disappointment with wasting time (and money)?
      What I’m getting at is you have a choice of seeing a TV show as one piece of art, potentially with flaws here and there (like a painting can be beatiful – but with one weird corner looking maybe unfinished, maybe rushed) – or you can view a TV show as a collection of more or less separate art items: you like some, dislike the others, like individual paintings in an exposition or individual tracks on an album.
      Sure, a TV show does require more of time investment, however nothing stops you from investing in another TV show at the very least on the Sunday evenings between seasons.
      I am glad to say there are plenty of TV shows offering a decent story (in my opinion, obviously, your mileage may vary) that stuck the landing. So when I myself was disappointed with GoT S8, I had backup to fall onto.
      And however the show ended will not tarnish the excellence of Winds of Winter for me. Or Hardhome for that matter.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Ten Bears,

      I meant, I know nothing about it. But I can make a video to make likes etc because that’s whats YT is about now. And the same is happening with tv-shows and movies. Everybody is a expert, and that’s how they bring those video’s not as opinion but as the only fact that matters. So I would only take people serious there that I know have knowledge of it and not just backing op my opinion.

      And my example was more, that it’s better to see video’s of a chef that can cook french food himself or even know a receipt, I don’t. But forgive my strange comparison, it was late and I wanted to check on WotW and there was a lot of comments I wanted to react to, so that’s why I probably came up with strange comparison.

        Quote  Reply

    81. kevin1989: Dee Stark,
      Sweet Dee (nickname of Always Sunny in Philadelphia), I’m with you I loved the final season. Had my issues like I have with every show I watched. But I just loved the ending of GoT. The emotion for me is what matters. I liked the Dany ending because I could sense what Dany was and I saw it in myself, what I would do if I would be in power, how far would I go to better the world. And I probably would become a delusional madman like her. And at the same time I saw that she try to do good in a bad way, a very bad way. I cried for her, I cried for Jon. I cried for Drogon. Mommy’s gone my sweet Drogon, fly away my hot flying doge.
      And I felled for Sansa, all she wants is her family with her, but she let them go, living her live alone, yes she is happy to become queen, but she wants Jon, Arya and Bran with her. Together as a pack.

      Aww thank you 🙂
      And yes I agree with everything you said

        Quote  Reply

    82. kevin1989,

      Well, HBO and Martin insisted strongly on making more season, so the budget was not a problem. Certainly, they would not be willing to increase the bugdet for a single season, since they packed tons of dollars into it’s production.

      The first problem was making 2 shortened season to conclude the entire story.
      On top of that, they really focused on ‘explosive aspect’ of the finale. And that’s why character development became an issue. That’s my point of view. They could easily make 7, 8 and 9 season with 10 episodes, focusing more on behond-the-scenes plotting against Daenerys. Create a lot more of Jon’s legacy tension. They could let Littlefinger live longer, which would solve the problem of his appearence in seaon 7 (I found it boring and out of character) and make him more of a troublemaker in the realm. It’d be great to see Varys and Littlefinger causing chaos for different reasons and different loyalties. They could have given more attention to WW story, like… much more. And definitely, more story for Bran.

      I don’t know, there was so much potential in that story, which would not feel streched and uneccessary long. I would give more room for the series to breathe. It’s not about HBO wanting more series, because there can only be one reason for such decision – money. But it was also Martin who was certain about the fact, that there was a lot of potential that has not been utilized. But it’s done. And that’s why I feel bad. I don’t think season 8 gave justice to the series.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Tron79:
      For me, all the hate just gets tiresome and the more hate I read, I stop wanting to check back. Even WotW has its share of hate and rude comments now, so it just makes me sad, and it gets harder for me to want to check back.I personally still haven’t let certain things go from season 6 where I disagreed with the director’s (and/or writer’s) decisions, but I stopped writing books about my complaints a couple weeks after it happened. There really is no sense on dwelling on it.I might mention I had issues, but I won’t force everyone to read my tirade just because I can’t let it go.As the article said, the art is what it is, and you can like it or not.I had issues with certain things in season 8 when they happened, but some of them already are better for me after giving it some time.I also look forward to waiting a month or so and then doing a full re-watch to see how it feels with some distance.I chose to become a book reader, and now I’m really enjoying all of the extra details in the books.I’m guessing GRRM will take us to the same story points but he will fill in many more details along the way once he gets to the end, and I look forward to those details.

      every word of it! thank you!

      it’s incredible how far people can go these days when they don’t feel entertained the way they wished. oh wait… of course, these people would always have had the better scripts, the better writing, the more logical ending. i forgot. how does it come they didn’t get engaged to take the risk of producing something that had to face the rating by millions of viewers? just how does it come? why didn’t HBO play safe and take one of the brilliant fan-fictions presented as “leaks” after E7? that was brilliant writing, wasn’t it? like the one that sent Beric and Tormund to CB after Eastwatch was torn down…

      i shouldn’t start because i wouldn’t stop. sometimes, fan really proves to be the short of fanatic, and that is the issue Nathalie adresses so precisely.

      i’ve seen some comments here and in the brazillions of other threads since Bran got crowned that mention “majorities not liking it”. ah, fuck majorities when it comes to art!! the quality of art is not defined by the mass of people who like it! masses of people like Justin Bieber, masses of people liked Modern Talking back in their time, masses of people have every effing fast-and-furious-dvd at home. does this make these better art?

      i wrote in another thread that the final season left us with more homework to do in order to see the logic. i was pretty much “wtf” after every episode i’ve watched. but the more homework i did by having own ideas and listening to those of others, the more S8 made sense to me. and i think the wave of hateful comments won’t stop for a whole while because, hating has become some form of mass entertainment since everyone can see everyone’s shitty little hate in social media now. the screamers finally have their own Speaker’s Corner. they can even scream simultaneously.

      to round this up, here’s a list of people’s online engagement for a better world.

      remake of GoT, five minutes ago: some 1’700’000
      this https://action.aclu.org/petition/separating-families : no 250’00’

      and this doesn’t compare art to art… we’ve gone really low!

        Quote  Reply

    84. Adam,

      As I stated above hbo wanted more seasons because of money and grrm because of wanting the books to end first. Nothing to do with if it was needed.

      As for more episodes. I wouldn’t have minded more episodes. The more got the better. But it was not needed. They already have us 3 episodes more then their first plan with bigger episodes.

      As for more episodes and seasons. For me that is more a problem with season 5 and 6 that should have had 5/10 episodes more. Dorne would have been better,same with Iron Islands. We could have had a Griff story. And more could have been better. 7 could also have used more episodes. 8 could have been the same if that happened.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Kevin1989,

      Hey Kev! I’ve noticed you really lament the absence of Griff. As a pre-books fan, may I ask…Was that storyline that good? Obviously the showrunners felt it prudent to excise Griff (“fAegon”?) from the TV adaptation.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Ten Bears,

      Well not perse better than Dorne or Iron Island story in the books, but I think (and it’s backed with visions from Dany in the books) that he will play a big role into the reason why Dany will turn to her darkest self. I think that story would have helped a lot with the pacing of the endgame, and with the build-up of Dany’s demise. I think that storyline would have made the endgame better of this saga. So not perse the best storyline in the books, but I think it will be one of the most important storylines in the end when it comes to Dany’s turn and everything surrounding that.
      – Dany is already warned of Griff, she already felt he stands in her way to her destiny, with a lie of his parentage, which will up the truth bomb of Jon, now there is 2 who claim to have a bigger claim to her throne and her destiny.
      – A vision showed that the people of KL adore Griff as a king in one of her visions. She didn’t like that. Meaning the people of KL are against her destiny in the books. Which will make more sense why she burn the city to the dust in the books, and also it make more sense that the people follow him instead of Cersei.
      – Omitting this storyline also made Dorne plot less interesting, those 2 storylines will be made one in Winds.

        Quote  Reply

    87. CerseiFanboy,

      Your opinion matters, just not enough for an artist to change their art. D&D had a story to tell and they stayed true to their story and their characters all the way to the end. No artist would change their art simply to appease a portion of their fan base. That petition was always going to be worthless and no one at HBO was ever going to take it seriously, and whoever started the petition knew that. He only did it to slap the cast and crew in the face, so Nathalie Emmanuel has every right to be pissed.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Final season wasen’t what I wanted (White Walker story was the part), but not bad either. After these months I think it was pretty good. 3½/5. Now I wait for the final season to come on Blu-Ray and then revisit the series. Then I can tell how it goes. Haven’t seen season 7 after it ended so whole ending point could be interesting to see after all six seasons that I have seen many times.

      Now if only Winds would come.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Missandei’s final scene was utterly disappointing. She had specifically told Dany in a prior season that she (Dany) should listen to her advisors, but then find another choice that they can’t see.

      I can only tell you what I have seen, Your Grace. I have seen you listen to your counselors. I have seen you lean on their experience when your own was lacking and weigh the choices they put before you. And I have seen you ignore your counselors because there was a better choice. One that only you could see.

      That is what Dany in prior seasons excelled at. That is what I thought Missandei meant when she said “dracarys”, not ‘you go girl burn everything hahahaha’.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Ugh. I had hoped that I could return to this site after a bit of time, and we could all be talking about the show in that wonderful, loving way. I DID love the final season, and I DO want to enjoy my fandom with people who also enjoyed the show. Is there a website that hasn’t been ruined by haters? I mean, if you hated the ending so much, why aren’t you moving on to a new show? Why are you still coming onto websites like this and ruining them for those of us who still want to be fans? Oh, by the way, that was a rhetorical question. But if anyone knows a website for fans who loved S8, or at least accept it for what it was and want to move forward instead of wallow in hate, please let me know. This site isn’t fun anymore.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Renly718,

      I’ve been around several sites and this is by far the least toxic. Most posters who disliked the final season manage to display their disappointment in a respectful way, but there are still those who don’t, so I understand your situation. Hopefully, the haters will get bored and leave so we’ll be able to express our love for the show without being ridiculed.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Renly718,

      There are definitely a few posters that come on here just to troll (on both sides of the debate), but I haven’t really seen very much of what you’re describing. I think you’re being a tad dramatic and exaggerating a bit, but of course YMMV.

      Do you have an example of posters that are wallowing in hate to the point that it should affect your enjoyment of discussing the show here?

        Quote  Reply

    93. Fall of House Stork,

      I just watched this episode and have to disagree – there was no question in my mind what she meant by her last word – it could only have been a last bit of advice, a call to action. How horrible that she would be the catalyst of the events of the next episode, altho given Dany’s background, was kind of a given no matter what anyone said to her.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Mr Derp,

      I think the main perpetrators have been removed from the site. Seems like our discussions are calmer right now, back to where they had been . As far as her comments – I understand how she feels, as an actor, but think she might have acknowledged disappointment of the fans.

        Quote  Reply

    95. So yet another interview where a cast member needs to defend S8 (I missed this when it was originally published to Watchers). I don’t believe for a moment S8 is beyond criticism, I agree episode 4 should have been split into two episodes and fleshed out more, I don’t agree that Mad Dany was not set-up or that D&D made major plot points up. Bottom line it’s nowhere near the worst season in my mind (S7, S2, S5 all are weaker from my eyes).

      I feel the reality is GOT had got so big that there was always going to be a backlash no matter what they did.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Anna:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      I’m sorry but I have to disagree with you. David and Dan were the ones who pushed for 13 episodes to finish up the story after season 6, eventhough GRRM, HBO and the fans wanted more.

      I think almost everyone agrees that 13 episodes was not enough to give this amazing show a proper ending. (Only one episode about the battle with the white walkers that was teased for seven seasons, really?) Shortening the final seasons was a huge mistake in my opinion and that decision, which caused most of the fan criticism, is entirely on David and Dan.

      It’s sad because the actors do not deserve any of the hate. Their performances were amazing!

      I agree an extra episode was probably needed (I would have split episode four to set-up mad Dany better) but the long night split into two episodes I don’t believe was necessary. I have some minor criticism of that episode and how things went down but I do feel one episode was perfect, especially given the filming difficulties – remember it took more time than any other TV battle in history.

        Quote  Reply

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