Miss Game of Thrones? Remember that show that everyone forgot how much they liked for nine years because they were so mad about the ending? Yeah, that one. Well anyway, apparently there are three MORE GOT prequel ideas in the works!!!! And who’s to say they’d even stop at three? Why not five? How about six? Surely, seven seems like the most fitting for the GOT universe…Don’t forget House of the Dragon is on the horizon as well, and is already shaping up to be epic as can be, given the cast seems to keep growing. So what more could we get from three new shows? Well…
One of them is said to be called 9 Voyages:
[9 Voyages] refers to the great voyages at sea made by Corlys Velaryon aboard the Sea Snake ship. Velaryon journeyed to places including Pentos, Dragonstone and around the bottom of Westeros as well as to Lys, Tyrosh and Myr. He reached the fabled lands of Yi Ti and Leng, whose wealth doubled that of the House Velaryon, and him and the Ice Wolf headed north searching for passage around the top of Westeros, only to find frozen seas and icebergs as big as mountains.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am not great with Westerosi history. But if my recollection serves correctly, Corlys Velaryon is heavily intertwined with House Targaryen after they conquer Westeros, so perhaps they are already planning a spinoff of the first GOT spinoff?! What an inception of a world we are living in!
Next up is Flea Bottom:
[Flea Bottom] is the poorest slum district in King’s Landing, a maze-like warren of narrow streets and dark alleys filled with tanneries, brothels and ale houses. It is featured in the first four seasons of Game of Thrones, including when William’s Arya Stark takes refuge there after fleeing the Red Keep. Characters from Flea Bottom include Ser Davos Seaworth, played by Liam Cunningham, Gendry, the bastard son of King Robert Baratheon, played by Joe Dempsie, prostitute Armeca, played by Sahara Knite and Karl Tanner, a brother of the Night’s Watch played by Burn Gorman.
No word yet on whether any of the aforementioned characters would show up, but if they do, please expect the world to explode with excitement. Imagine the Internet if sweaty ironworks Gendry were to pop back up on your TV. The Internet would go mad I tells you – MAD.
Lastly is 10,000 Ships.
[10,000 Ships is] a reference to the journey made by warrior queen Princess Nymeria and the surviving members of the Rhoynars, who travelled from Essos to Dorne following their defeat by the Valyrian Freehold in the Second Spice War. This migration took place around 1,000 years before the events depicted in the A Song of Ice and Fire novels. Arya Stark, played by Maisie Williams, named her direwolf after Nymeria.
WOW OK so this would be really going back in time, far before Westeros was ever conquered by Targaryens. The possibilities are limitless here. I remember reading all about Princess Nymeria, but the details evade me, so I’ll leave the speculation to the comment boards. But holy cow am I excited. This one sounds the coolest to me, if I’m being frank. But who am I kidding? These all sounds great.
Reportedly The Sea Snake project already has Bruno Heller(!) attached, which is fantastic, as he created two of my favourite shows in Rome and Gotham. Hopefully we’ll hear more about showrunners for the other two soon, if they ever come to fruition.
So, to recap, we went from a failed pilot, to an immediately greenlit series, to a multitude of possible series, to A PLETHORA OF POTENTIAL SERIES. I can’t take all of the Game of Thrones madness, but hot damn am I excited. What do you all think?
It’s 2050. The world stands in ruins, we’re fighting off COVID-35 and mutant-scavengers roam the plains. There are now 73 Game of Thrones spinoffs in development.
Interesting ideas that will allow a lot of creative freedom.
House of the Dragon will start production in several weeks and the GoT madness will be back.
I think all 3 could have a lot of interesting elements.
I’m just someone who likes one really solid series occupying my mind at a time. I don’t have the emotional fortitude to immerse myself in a Planetos festival of offerings. 😄
I am… moderately excited?? I’m always stoked to hear anything up for discussion from the ASOIAF world coming to a screen of any size. So, yay? Maybe it’s because the descriptions are so vague but it sounds like these are more vibes or an atmosphere than stories. Star Trek exploring on old boats. A hot mess of a town (Gendry shirtless and hammering is very appealling though David, good call). Star Trek exploring on old boats with a badass female lead and with a goal to find a place to live. Perhaps they will elaborate more in the future but I’m as excited about this as I was about the Blood Moon thing which got cancelled- I’m not sure what the story or the characters are. Anything from GRRM’s world will be amazing and HBO will surely put the budget behind it to make it spectacular. But in the end if we don’t have story source material crafted by George, the human heart in conflict with itself etc, all the things that made GoT a compelling show to begin with, I’m skeptical. Like Sue said, a thousand spinoffs and one… but I recognize they often hear a lot of pitches and old the best go forward so I’m trusting the process. I’m REALLY excited for House of the Dragon though or adaptations of the Dunk and Egg tales!!
Let’s get HotD filming and ready for primetime! This is exciting for the future, but everything feels so far away right now.
Me either. All sound like they have interesting aspects but at this point, I think it’s starting to get a little nuts 😅😅😅
”Next up is Flea Bottom:
[Flea Bottom] is the poorest slum district in King’s Landing, a maze-like warren of narrow streets and dark alleys filled with tanneries, brothels and ale houses. It is featured in the first four seasons of Game of Thrones, including when William’s Arya Stark takes refuge there after fleeing the Red Keep. Characters from Flea Bottom include Ser Davos Seaworth, played by Liam Cunningham, Gendry, the bastard son of King Robert Baratheon, played by Joe Dempsie, prostitute Armeca, played by Sahara Knite and Karl Tanner, a brother of the Night’s Watch played by Burn Gorman.
No word yet on whether any of the aforementioned characters would show up, but if they do, please expect the world to explode with excitement. Imagine the Internet if sweaty ironworks Gendry were to pop back up on your TV. The Internet would go mad I tells you – MAD.”
No disrespect intended, but when mentioning “characters from Flea Bottom,” and those who’d make “the world explode with excitement” or “the Internet go mad,” aren’t we forgetting someone?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sHwU0cEzxo
Hint: Somebody who’s… “Flea Bottom, born and bred”?
”Lastly is 10,000 Ships.
[10,000 Ships is] a reference to the journey made by warrior queen Princess Nymeria and the surviving members of the Rhoynars, who travelled from Essos to Dorne following their defeat by the Valyrian Freehold in the Second Spice War. This migration took place around 1,000 years before the events depicted in the A Song of Ice and Fire novels. Arya Stark, played by Maisie Williams, named her direwolf after Nymeria.
WOW OK so this would be really going back in time, far before Westeros was ever conquered by Targaryens. The possibilities are limitless here. I remember reading all about Princess Nymeria, but the details evade me, so I’ll leave the speculation to the comment boards…”
Sounds like the lead actress and a built-in audience would already be in place, wouldn’t you think?
https://youtu.be/BoYYK7nPAmc?t=111
breaks my heart
David Rosenblatt,
“You’ve been making pies?”
“One or two.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8sJSjMNDSE
🥧🥧
Sue the Fury,
73 spin-offs. One for each GOT episode!!
Regarding the Zombie Apocalypse caused by a virus, today I watched a big hearted rom-com Zombie movie called Warm Bodies starring Nicholas Hoult. I was very surprised how much I liked this movie! Nicholas Hoult apparently auditioned for Jon Snow.
Also I’m loving reading Dunk and Egg A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. I would look forward to a limited run series based on the novellas.
Oh, good! I thought you’d like them! They’re written quite differently from the world books and more the way ASOIAF are 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Yes. I’m really enjoying the characters and GRRMs writing style in these. The illustrations are fun too. I’m mad I didn’t have a breather today to be able to sit back and read more. I will definitely get back to it Friday on my day off. My son bought me the book for my birthday.
You have a lovely son! 🙂
I think the good thing about not having finished reading/watching a series yet is that you get a treat to look forward to so it kind of prolongs the enjoyment in that way.
For anyone curious about Dunk & Egg and has not read the series, Alt Shift X did a three-part series called “Dunk & Egg Explained” which gives a good overview.
This is the first video here:
GRRM does love his pirate at sea adventures. The Nymeria one does sound interesting.
I have watched successful mini (or limited run) series with 6, 7 or 8 episodes and that’s it. I think some of GRRM’s stories would be great in these shorter runs instead of trying to recreate a 10 year series. Maniac on Netflix is one of my favorite series of all time, and that was a one season and done series. I didn’t need to see more. The story was told.
Series often try to go for multiple seasons and end up not getting renewed. I’m sure I’m not alone feeling frustrated when a series gets cancelled after leaving huge teaser. I Am Not Okay with This is one such example. This series starred Sophia Lillis (who was great in the Amazon original film Uncle Frank) In many ways this is another coming of age story that seem to be everywhere on Netflix and Amazon. Sophia’s character discovers she has uncontrollable super powers when she gets angry. She’s a bit like the Hulk without turning huge and green. She’s also a bit like Carrie. I thought it had an excellent cliff hanger and was just starting to get interesting, and Netflix gives them the “It’s not you, it’s me speech” and cancels.
I would be very happy with a few one season ASOIAF prequels or related series to go with one bigger series that could have the potential for many multiple seasons.
Tron79,
”Regarding the Zombie Apocalypse caused by a virus, today I watched a big hearted rom-com Zombie movie called Warm Bodies starring Nicholas Hoult. I was very surprised how much I liked this movie! Nicholas Hoult apparently auditioned for Jon Snow.”
Six Degrees of Game of Thrones: Here’s Nicholas Hoult with Osha the Wildling (Natalia Tena) in “About a Boy.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOCd1HQ8vr0
🎧
Nice catch. I thought I recognized Tena somewhere when I first saw her on GoT but couldn’t place exactly where. I love About a Boy 🙂
Adrianacandle,
She also played Tonks in Harry Potter.
You’re right! My brain completely blanked out on that — damn XD
Thanks for this!! The mysteries of the universe suddenly became clear. It all makes sense now. I also love About a Boy. I’ve seen Nicholas Hoult in a number of movies recently including Rebel in the Rye and Tolkien. I never thought to look up his childhood roles. And I would have never thought the kid in About a Boy was the same person. Wow. And I also had no idea that it was OSHA right in front of me. I rewatched about a boy a couple months ago. Thanks for clearing things up. The chaos has come into focus. “For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky.”
Tron79,
I liked Nicholas Hoult in “Mad Max: Fury Road.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxhj3Rs6_hs
“What a lovely day!”
OK that was a bizarre scene. I can’t say I’m a Mad Max connoisseur other than having fond memories of Tina Turner (more musical interlude material). The music from your “what a lovely day” clip (and some of the visuals) reminded me of being out at sea during a storm, so I’m bringing things back to the Nymeria series… Maybe Nymeria meets Mad Max… Nymeria’s Fury?
Tron79,
I am not a Mad Max connoisseur either. I didn’t especially like the previous Mad Max movies with Mel Gibson.
However, I thought Mad Max: Fury Road was terrific.
Tron79,
Bringing things back to the Nymeria series…I’m afraid I’m going to incur the wrath of the community with my casting suggestion for
”warrior queen Princess Nymeria.”
#ARLTA
Fury Road is a really fun movie. I thought it was a bit ridiculous that it won Best Picture that year, as I didn’t think it was all that, but it was a very fun action flick.
The shows may not all get the green light of course. Amazon are doing a show about ‘The Wheel of Time’ as well as something set in ‘The Lord of the Rings’ universe and part of me wonders if too many fantasy series will be like too many cream cake i.e. you end up feeling sick. Another part of me likes tales of swords and sorcery so I have mixed feelings about all the Planetos prequels.
I’ve had ‘Dragon Riders of Pern’ and ‘Malazan’ recommended to me as reading matter. Has anybody read those series?
and GRRM will still be giving vague Twitter updates that he’s almost finished with the next book.
Adrianacandle,
Dunk is also from Flea Bottom
I greatly enjoyed Anne McCaffrey’s Dragon Riders of Pern Series, but I don’t think it really qualifies as Fantasy, It’s closer to Soft SciFi. But still lots of great Characters and Development in them.
Pern. Literally decades ago. Nice fluff, readable. Must like dragons.
Malazan: This is a tricky one. My nick directly alludes to the series, so yes, deep into it. It really depends what you want out of your fantasy. Gotta be careful what I say, if not, people will start screaming *Gatekeeper!*. I.e. it is not for everyone. The series is huge – main body is 10 sizeable volumes written between 2000 and 2011, the scale is humungous, it has a cast of dozens and dozens of characters, it is mainly theme-driven than character-driven, it is possibly quite like nothing you have ever read before. Very important: It is finished.
The cycle got some attention when it was published in the 00s, went a little silent – and in the last 12-18 months has experienced this weird type of renaissance that no one can quite explain. IMO, Zeitgeist has caught up with it.
Erikson, by trade, is an archaeologist/anthropologist, which shows in his world-building.
Important: Not to be compared with aSoIaF, Two different pots of tea.
Here is one quite interesting YT-contribution to Malazan. 100% non-spoilery. It explains the idea behind it pretty well. You are of an older generation, this may interest you.
First 20 minutes general definitions. If you want to cut to the chase, go to part 3 – starts around 20:00. Benchmarks it vs. LotR.
Mr Derp,
“It’s 2050. The world stands in ruins, we’re fighting off COVID-35 and mutant-scavengers roam the plains. There are now 73 Game of Thrones spinoffs in development.”
and GRRM will still be giving vague Twitter updates that he’s almost finished with the next book.
———-
Hey Mr. D! Care to add a verse to this song?
🎶“In the year 2525…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yesyhQkYrQM
📆
Excited for 9 Voyages and Bruno Heller’s attachment (allegedly). The least interesting one is Flea Bottom, but it could mean very interesting and humorous characters as well as its history, depending on when the story is set.
flintstonewielder,
Thanks for the information.
Also in one of my earlier posts I should have said ‘cakes’ plural
Okay so… Your are telling me that all my favourite houses in the song of ice and fire (Yronwood, Waynwood and Hightower) ARE GONNA BE DEPICTEEEEED. HOLLY MOLLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know that both House Hightower and House Yronwood will be portrayed as antagonistic but I cannot help myself, I love them way too much and I really hope they are represented on screen as the intricate and complex houses that they are, allowing us to undertand their motivations.
After all, The Hightowers want to get control of the IT because they think Aegon is the rightful ruler (which, he kind of is) and the Yronwoods want control over Dorne because they consider themselves the bloodroyals, I just hope they dont make them straight evil twisting moustache kind of evil, obviously, we could say that both houses take a more misogynistic apporach but again, context is EVERYTHING.
Although, now that i think about it, it will be hard to portray the Yronwoods as an ambiguous house (they didnt want a brown woman to rule over them after all) but I trust the writers to do an amazing job.
Also, I would love to see the show “1000 ships” shot in Spain (my country!) and Morocco since those coutries are the biggest influences for Dorne (Dorne is not only a huge dessert it also has very fertile lands too).
Im just so excited!!
Hell I want to see that movie…minus the 73 GOT spin-offs !!!
Meh…none of the options sound too appealing to be honest. Maybe the “10,000 Ships” one…the article did peak my attention when Sahara Knite was mentioned,…LOL…🤪…
Now all kidding aside, I think that this is more a case of putting the cart before the horse. As the article mentioned…we just had a fully filmed, produced pilot and a series that was expected to be green lit and go into production…but the project ended up being shut down and discarded in its entirety. And “Blood Moon” (“The Long Night”) was something I was way more interested in than anything mentioned here.
Even entertaining this amount of ideas is starting to resemble the “let’s throw everything to the wall and see what sticks” mentality. Which rarely if ever leads to anything good or of note, especially in terms of a creative perspective.
If you permit me another bit of “homely wisdom”… how about we learn to walk before we run aka let’s see how “House Of The Dragon” pans out before taking on anymore prequel, sequels and spin-offs?
I know that the reality on the ground is quite different and the parent company, AT&T, is indebted and desperate to turn the acquisition of Warner Bros, HBO and other Time Warner Media assets, profitable. That is especially true for the sagging HBO Max streaming service, which they desperately need to work if they are to be successful and survive the current streaming wars against Disney Plus, Amazon Prime, Apple TV Plus and of course Netflix…
The profit motive as well as a certain amount or ego and pride drives almost all corporate types…and they’ll definitely put pressure on content creators to deliver.
With a valuable IP like “Game Of Thrones”, AT&T and Time Warner would be remiss if not trying to see how much gold can be mined out of it. Hell, even though most, if not all, of these ideas and concepts will never see the light of day, they will keep making announcements like this, just because…well a few reasons, but mostly because it is a cheap marketing ploy guaranteed to give them at least some amount of publicity.
Of course for us fans this is a different story…”Begun the Streaming Wars have!”. Yoda said that…
Yeah, at this point, it seems like HBO is just throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks. It reeks of desperation. The truth is that none of these shows are ever going to live up to the scale and hype of the original series. Even the controversy surrounding its final season will actually help it in the long run. The best they could hope for is a “Better Call Saul” – which despite bring brilliantly written, still lives in the shadow of its predecessor, unfortunately.
“No matter how many fish in the sea, it’ll be so empty without me”
Yeah, I think this is what it feels like to me — throwing everything to the wall to see what sticks. I think it’d be wise to focus on HotD to see how it does before plans for additional prequels.
While I think it’s fine to propose ideas for various prequels amongst themselves in preparation for the possibility of more opportunity to expand this world on TV, it feels a step too much to actually start developing multiple ones.
loco73,
What about the Saturday morning GoT cartoon series I’ve been waiting for???
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/78/2a/00/782a007818e6ca5bad52c93bf16da67d.jpg
…or
https://external-preview.redd.it/_R3KIy-kSB3SH7cW40er9aFBeIHbSPWUgAw9MgqqXJM.jpg?auto=webp&s=ed313bb7406270d76c06a94ef8bbc1329608167a
Ten Bears,
If they make it into an adult oriented anime type of series…well…that could work. That second image actually looks awesome.
“Castlevania” over on Netflix is a good example of that…
Now for something completely different…not a musical break. Instead since many of you guys mentioned “Mad Max” (full disclosure I can’t stand “Mad Max Fury Road”), here is what is undoubtedly, at least for me, one of the all time best prologue/intro scenes to a movie. This is from “Mad Max 2” (1981) which in the US was released as and most commonly known as, “The Road Warrior”. It is one of my favourite movies and one of the rare instances when the second part or instalment in a franchise is not only as good as but also better than the original. The third instalment in this almost informal trilogy was the movie you guys mentioned “Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome”.
Be forewarned that this prologue contains ******SPOILERS****** from the first movie just in case you have not watched yet…even though it came out in 1979…so WARNING…SPOILERS BELOW!!!
Star Trek the Animated Series back in the 1970’s had some decent stories and they had the original cast back as voices. The animation itself was panned, but I enjoyed some of those episodes. I would think GOT could follow in those footsteps.
zuke,
Sorry zuke, I didn’t acknowledge your comment about ‘The Dragon Riders of Pern’ before.3
Star Trek.
The Wire.
Battlestar Galactica.
😉
Jokes aside, it does look like HBO are aiming to follow the current Star Wars model of multiple simultaneous/overlapping shows involving very different themes and timeframes.
I think the best story option would be a show focusing on the final war between the Ghiscari Empire and Valyria. Massive scale — bigger than GoT, in a way — and plenty of scope for “high thread count” political & psychological stuff and character development, obviously along with world-building, huge battles, real-life historical precedents etc. Something for everyone.
flintstonewielder,
It’s probably because of people looking for “the next GoT” (or a better alternative to ASOIAF) as a direct reaction to GRRM’s ongoing delays with finishing ASOIAF and the widespread disappointment with GoT’s final season. It’s not surprising that Malazan would be one of the first names to come up.
loco73,
Now for something (else) completely different…
Musical Interlude
Dedicated to NK & Undead Viserion
“The Wall” live (July, 1990) [1:50:18 long]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohrFzuuUyi0
at 1:37:44
“Mr. Night King, tear down this Wall!”
– Ronald Reagan
Ten Bears,
Oh thanks for that! 👍👍 Brings back some good memories of when I watched the concert live on TV! Yikes how time flies! This concert came a bit over a year after the fall of the Berlin Wall (1989) and it was a celebration of the official re-unification of Germany. The Germans had also won the 1990 Soccer World Cup, which gave that whole year, at least for the Germans, a festive feeling of never ending celebrations…and while most countries in Europe were happy for them…there were quite a few neighbours who were, understandably, quite nervous as well…for obvious reasons…
By this time, most if not all, of the so-called Eastern or Soviet block had collapsed, marking the end of the Cold War (well some people argue that that came in 1992 when the Soviet Union officially ceased to exist). Unfortunately this also meant the beginning of the decade long bloody and violent Balkan Wars in what used to be the former Yugoslavia…a country which disintegrated quite rapidly after the end of the Cold War.
Yep, crazy, tumultuous and uncertain times. But also full of promise. There was such a feeling of hope and optimism. Too bad people didn’t seize the opportunity to do something better all with all of that…instead they wasted it and fouled it up just like before…or perhaps even worse…
Dame of Mercia,
There shouldn’t be a 3 on my comment to zuke. I was on my phone and I don’t always notice my typos! Ten Bears, I know you were joking but I think whoever should play Nymeria (if the story about N going to Dorne from Essos goes into production) should have a Mediterranean look – Maisie Williams is very talented but she has an English look. Though if it came to acting ability v looks I would go with acting ability. I know some ‘Witcher’ book and game fans had issues about how some of the cast looked compared to books/games. It didn’t bother me because I’ve only read part of the first book so I didn’t have any preconceived ideas. Some people have concerns about the ‘Wheel of Time’ show which is being shot at present (well off and on because of Covid-19 and I think it’s more ‘off’ at present) for similar reasons. I’ve only read the first book there and I’m not sure whether I’ll carry on. It may be because I’m an old trout I’m past the optimum age to read the series. I suppose I could try one ‘Pern’ book and one ‘Malazan’ book and if I like them carry on.
Dame of Mercia,
” Ten Bears, I know you were joking but I think whoever should play Nymeria (if the story about N going to Dorne from Essos goes into production) should have a Mediterranean look – Maisie Williams is very talented but she has an English look. Though if it came to acting ability v looks I would go with acting ability…”
• Yeah, I wasn’t really serious about that. It’s just that the article’s synopsis of “10,000 Ships” as telling the story of “Warrior Queen Princess Nymeria,”* and mentioning that “Arya Stark, played by Maisie Williams, named her direwolf after Nymeria,” kind of prompted the fancasting connection on my part.
• However, I wasn’t being entirely facetious in suggesting a Saturday morning cartoon series featuring Sansa & Arya or Sandor & Arya. (See my March 21, 6:28 pm Comment + embedded images.]
is an accomplished voice actress for animated characters, e.g., as Goona in the animated film “Early Man” (2018) and as Cammie MacCloud in the animated series “Gen:Lock.” (She also voiced parts in “Robot Chicken,” though I’ve never seen that.) Also, in her four-episode guest-starring role on “Doctor Who” I thought she modulated her voice well in portraying
For whatever reason – the writing, the acting, or the source material – some show! characters resonated with the TV audience: Pedro Pascal as Oberyn; Charles Dance as Tywin; Maisie Williams as Arya; Rory McCann as Sandor Clegane; Ben Hawkeye as Hot Pie; and Natalie Dormer as Margaery, to name a few. Personal biases aside, I’m aware that
Alternatively,
For all the talk about HBO wanting to monetize its “intellectual property,” an animated series with well-known, popular characters wouldn’t be the worst gamble. Plus, it would be relatively inexpensive to produce (and voice acting can be done remotely).
I agree it wouldn’t be the worst gamble but I think a sticky thing with this would be rights. I don’t think HBO has rights to the ASOIAF universe as a whole but piece by piece — what GRRM is willing to have adapted (which has been mostly pre-series material based on already-written stories with new characters).
When it comes to the stories of the main characters, I’m not sure if GRRM has signed over those rights or if HBO still retains those rights from the existing series (ie. expanding on their season 3-4 road trip, which has already been expanded from the books). If dealing with post-ASOIAF, I imagine that would involve new licensing. It’s one thing to explore new characters and new stories within an established setting (I believe GRRM has expressed interest in that) but I’d say it’s another thing to develop whole new stories with original content following a main character. He has said re ASOIAF characters “[his] characters are his children” and he “[doesn’t] want people making off with them” so I’m not sure if he’d want original stories exploring these characters being adapted into entire series.
I think that would post the biggest issue here.
I think the only bigger issue than that, would be locating a wild Scotsman on a boat away from civilization, in order to pitch the idea. 😛
They could even make a documentary about it – “Finding Rory”? 😉😄
LOL 😂😂😂
Adrianacandle,
”I agree it wouldn’t be the worst gamble but I think a sticky thing with this would be rights. I don’t think HBO has rights to the ASOIAF universe as a whole but piece by piece — what GRRM is willing to have adapted (which has been mostly pre-series material based on already-written stories with new characters).”
I could be mistaken. I thought GRRM signed away the rights to his existing ASOIAF characters, even if HBO/Benioff and Weiss put them in different settings – which to be fair, encompassed all of S7 and S8.
”He [GRRM] has said re ASOIAF characters “[his] characters are his children” and he “[doesn’t] want people making off with them” so I’m not sure if he’d want original stories exploring these characters being adapted into entire series.”
His “children” were already adopted and raised by strangers. Too late to whinge. (Just kidding. I don’t know the details of his deal with HBO.)
In any event, I suspect that under his existing deal, GRRM would get a hefty cut of any profitable cartoon spinoff involving his existing characters.
Perhaps his contract only covered Game of Thrones (which would mean he would’ve inked a new deal for more $$ for “Blood Moon” and “House of the Dragon”?)
Maybe someone who’s familiar with the intricacies of his deal would have a better idea.
Pigeon,
”I think the only bigger issue than that, would be locating a wild Scotsman on a boat away from civilization, in order to pitch the idea. 😛
They could even make a documentary about it – “Finding Rory”? 😉😄”
• A “Finding Rory” documentary? I’d watch that!!!
• When I wrote that “…it would be relatively inexpensive to produce (and voice acting can be done remotely)” I was actually thinking that Rory McCann could record his parts on his boat. Just airlift the audio equipment to wherever he is. Same thing with pitching the idea to him: just send a drone or helicopter to locate him and lower the cashier’s check + synopsis onto the deck of his boat (and hope he doesn’t have a bazooka or harpoon to ward off interlopers).
Ten Bears,
No, not exactly. I don’t think agreeing to have ASOIAF adapted (and with all the changes that would entail) means he’s signed away the rights to the characters themselves (ie. the license to create spin-offs).
Agreeing to license the events of ASOIAF would be different from agreeing to spin-offs comprised of original material using his characters (and GRRM anticipated he’d be done writing well before GoT reached season 6). However, beyond that (ie. post-ASOIAF and spin-offs dealing with primary ASOIAF characters) would be a different licensing issue, I’d imagine.
And with post-ASOIAF, that wouldn’t really fall under the story of ASOIAF, I don’t think. GRRM is already trying to finish ASOIAF and may not have figured out whatever story these established characters may have beyond ASOIAF, if he plans on telling their story beyond ASOIAF, and if he wants that story at all. He may very well want it ended there.
To clarify (because I didn’t), GRRM was talking about fanfiction when he said this, not about D&D. GoT is an adaptation with diversions (and some diversions I don’t think GRRM anticipated, as discussed previously, and some of which he objected to) but it’s not a spin-off or a wholly original story using GRRM’s characters.
However, GoT being a licensed adaptation by two other writers doesn’t really automatically include the right itself for the production company to do whatever they want with these characters. Unless that was included in the contract, of course, and based on how GRRM has spoken about wholly original material or fanfiction using his characters (and that GRRM refused offers for adaptations before D&D), I’m dubious GRRM would consent to this.
My primary point is these are story ideas that may well come with a few obstacles for HBO and may be more difficult to do than prequel content.
Well, as discussed before, money isn’t really the ultimate factor for everyone and GRRM is pretty comfortable right now. He has the privilege of saying “no” because money isn’t a big need for him. Add to that, HBO is clearly interested in adapting his other material so GRRM has choices here.
I think that’s the case — I think these are piece-by-piece deals.
Ten Bears,
Perhaps a better way of explaining myself would be using an imperfect comparison to selling digital downloads online.
For example, laser cutting patterns! I’m having to think about that and the contract I’d have the buyer agree to before allowing them to purchase a laser cutting pattern I designed. A contract is needed in this case because otherwise (as has happened to me), people can do whatever they want with the pattern: duplicate it for resale, use it as the base design to develop their own design for resale (ie. copying unique design aspects and incorporating those into their design), cut it and sell the product. I don’t want that to happen! I’m licensing the sale of the digital pattern only for personal use, however they choose to use it (cut it for themselves, cut it as a gift, cut it to use at their business whatever that business is, finish the resulting cut however they want — their personal purposes are their own, as long as they aren’t resale and using it as the basis for their own designs).
I think this can be compared to, in a way, with a contract allowing HBO to adapt ASOIAF and whatever GRRM’s plans were for ASOIAF when it was clear he wouldn’t finish in time. A contract stipulating only the license rights to ASOIAF and an adaptation of that story for a TV show wouldn’t necessarily include the license rights to spin-offs using ASOIAF characters outside of that story. If that makes sense.
Like when I sell a digital pattern for download, it gives buyers the right to use it for their own personal purposes — whatever the are — but not the right to copy, duplicate, or resell.
Adrianacandle,
”I think that’s the case — I think these are piece-by-piece deals.”
You’re probably right. I guess it depends on the wording of GRRM’s licensing deal with HBO – and whatever contracts the actors sign to allow the use of their likenesses or voices.
• Recently, I read about the estate of Arthur Conan Doyle threatening to sue the producers of “Enola Holmes” – although that may have been based on the (flimsy) theory that the movie’s depiction of Sherlock Holmes was based on later novels that weren’t in the public domain. (Sorry. I’m hazy on the details.)
• I also remember Robin Williams being extremely pissed off that the makers of “Aladdin” sold the rights to the genie character and his voice to MacDonald’s or Burger King after expressly promising him they wouldn’t do that.
• I vaguely recall that some musicians or songwriters claimed they had only licensed their music to record companies for (vinyl) albums, and not songs reissued on CDs or other media. (I could be wrong about that.)
These days, “sampling” fragments of artists’ original songs is another can of worms keeping lawyers busy.
• Finally, I thought I recall reading that George Lucas wasn’t at all pleased with some of the recent Star Wars movies – including “retconning” of established canon – but there was nothing he could do about it since he’d sold all the rights to the studio.
I suppose, as the old saying goes, “the devil is in the details.” Whether HBO is free to do an animated spinoff probably depends on the specific wording of its contract(s) with GRRM. When I have time, maybe I’ll try to find out if GRRM ever wrote or talked about the specifics of his arrangement with HBO.
Yes!
Though I don’t recall him talking about stuff like this and I don’t think we’ll ever be privy to those details since they’re not typically made available to the broader public (unless a party is sued/is suing — then I believe we would get some of the details about the contracts that way).
I think you made a nice list illustrating the mine field of intellectual property rights and what a legal headache that can be for all parties involved. Especially in creative fields, where artists/creatives/writers/etc. have to figure this stuff out because there’s a need for those stipulations and to be careful. However, it’s often the most stressful part about putting your work out there — whether it’s wedding photography, selling your wares online, graphic design and the issue of raw files (IP) between designer and client, or an author’s book being made into a movie/TV show and everything in between, it’s typically dizzying.
Ten Bears,
BTW, OT:
Adrianacandle,
”I think you made a nice list illustrating the mine field of intellectual property rights and what a legal headache that can be for all parties involved…”
Headache is right. I’m locked in a dispute with a tee shirt company (and my credit card company) over charges for tee shirts marketed as “officially licensed” by the designer, but which I suspect were counterfeit. (Misspelling the slogan on the shirt was kind of a giveaway. 😡) It’s not so much the money involved; it just ticks me off that parasitic bottom feeders are exploiting the name and creativity of the artist to rip off the public. Even worse: the artist had designed the shirts to raise money for charity; it angers me that some scoundrels are selling knockoffs to line their own pockets. 🤬
Yeah, exactly! (And ripping off an artist’s work done for charity is especially awful) You give a great example of how IP and copyright headaches can trickle down to consumers in this way. Counterfeiters lying about being genuine (that’s even an issue with some products on Amazon — I’ve gotten, for example, skin cream claiming to be from Vichy but when I received the item, the Vichy container was clearly reused, slightly faded, dog-eared label, with the factory seal broken and when I opened it up, the product… uh… well, I couldn’t put it on my face XD;;;)
Adrianacandle,
off topic
Ten Bears,
OT wet-sanding:
Adrianacandle,
off topic
Ten Bears,
OT:
Adrianacandle,
”Yeah, exactly! (And ripping off an artist’s work done for charity is especially awful)”
FYI re: tee shirt scam
“Our co-founder Cyndi Lauper has designed and released her official “Girls Just Want To Have Fundamental Rights” t-shirt to raise money for the True Colors Fund and Planned Parenthood.”
https://truecolorsunited.org/2017/03/02/get-cyndi-laupers-official-girls-just-want-fundamental-rights-t-shirt/
I thought they’d make perfect holiday gifts for my sister, my niece, my friends … and myself. Even though the original 2017 fundraiser had ended, I searched online and found a company selling “Cyndi Lauper’s Official” tee shirt: same design, same logo. So I ordered a bunch.
Most of them arrived missing the “S” in “Girls.” Needless to say, they were worthless as gifts. I thought I was buying an officially licensed product designed by Cyndi Lauper, with the proceeds to go to charity or Ms. Lauper.
Ten Bears,
As a kid, I would go to the flea market where they had stalls selling counterfeit Disney and designer brands — hoodies, shirts, totes, etc. However, these stalls never pretended they were authentic licensed merchandise so we knew what we were buying.
Your experience was clearly a scam — and that absolutely sucks 🙁 — and scamming off of charitable goal-oriented endeavor no less.
David Rosenblatt,
I’m confused about the “9 Voyages” prequel idea. (Maybe you already addressed this by describing this as a spinoff of a spinoff in the “Inception” world we’re living in. I reproduced your description below.)
HotD just cast an actor to play Corlys Velaryon. How can HBO be planning a Corlys spinoff now… unless he’s going to be a one season only character? Sort of like Oberyn in GoT S4, except Corlys gets to sail off into the sunset?
I wonder if they’ve got the actor signed up with a studio option to have him appear in either or both shows?
It just seems kind of strange to be thinking ahead to a spinoff of a spinoff with the same character, before a single episode of the first spinoff has even been filmed.
…………….
”One of them is said to be called 9 Voyages:
[9 Voyages] refers to the great voyages at sea made by Corlys Velaryon aboard the Sea Snake ship. Velaryon journeyed to places including Pentos, Dragonstone and around the bottom of Westeros as well as to Lys, Tyrosh and Myr. He reached the fabled lands of Yi Ti and Leng, whose wealth doubled that of the House Velaryon, and him and the Ice Wolf headed north searching for passage around the top of Westeros, only to find frozen seas and icebergs as big as mountains.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am not great with Westerosi history. But if my recollection serves correctly, Corlys Velaryon is heavily intertwined with House Targaryen after they conquer Westeros, so perhaps they are already planning a spinoff of the first GOT spinoff?! What an inception of a world we are living in!”
Mr Derp,
HAHahahah!
ash,
Been awhile, thought I’d drop back in. Looks like something good perhaps is afoot. Good to see so many names around here. Hope everyone is doing well.
Havent done a rewatch in a while and that news got me thinking it might be time. Hey Im retired what else am I doing?
GRRM´s delays certainly is one of the reasons that brought *me* to Malazan some years ago, so…yes.
Also, I believe that the Zeitgeist has changed in the last few years – the world has gone pretty batshit crazy in the times of Trump of Covid; GRRM´s almost seems “boring/rational” by comparison.
Musical Interlude
Dedicated to Targaryen
dragonriders and pyromaniacs
Mad King Aerys “Burn Them All!” Targaryen [picture at top of post], Mad Queen Daenerys “Dracarys!” Targaryen, Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen, Prince Daemon Targaryen, and Princess Rhaenys Velaryon
stoked from below 🧨
I’m ready to cook with fire. 🔥♨️
***
🎶… I got a soul that’s got a spark 💥
Oh, yeah, holdin’ a real hot wire
You got a hungry flame ☄️ in the dark
And Lord, we gonna cook it
with fire!”🎶♨️🔥
•“Cook with Fire” (1978) – Heart
[album version; audio 5:00 long]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5qqg4Pk7Z4
•“Cook with Fire” – Heart, live 1978
[4:47 long – video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw1u4421U6g
🔥
Any experts on English grammar out there? I wondered if there is a name for something which I’ve noticed in advertising lately where something is ‘bigged up’ by saying it has certain qualities and then proclaiming it is the opposite of those qualities – a contradiction in terms. The advertisement I mentioned on another thread about designing a website being exactly like painting a masterpiece only it’s nothing like painting a masterpiece and now there’s one about the ‘bra-free bra’. Those type of ads drive me barmy.
Trying to get back on track with the thread I think the Nymeria story appeals the most to me personally. Fan casting although it’s fun might not be apt given that the show IF it sees light of day won’t do so for a few years. If one considers a Nymeria who is not a teenager or in her early twenties, Cate de Pablo might suit or Megs’s mate, Janina Gavankar.
Dame of Mercia,
OT advertising:
Ie. addressing common complaints about comfort issues regarding bras so an advertiser offers a “bra-free bra” that doesn’t feel like a “typically uncomfortable” bra?
(I only put that in quotes because buying bras off the rack can result in a very uncomfortable bra — but buying one that has been fitted to one’s chest will often result in a more comfortable bra. However, some have issues with underwires or certain clasps regardless.)
Or how the skill required to paint a masterpiece/design a website requires education/training/specialized talent can be avoided with advertiser’s product that is offering a way to get the same result with no education/training/specialized talent?
Dame of Mercia,
Ah, I worded my last paragraph in what was probably the most confusing way possible XD;; Let me try again!
OT advertising:
Adrianacandle,
I see what you mean. They’re still annoying adverts though.
Regarding my fan casting for Nymeria, there is to my knowledge of course no actress named Cate de Pablo. There is a Cato de Pablo though.
Dame of Mercia,
Oh, I agree. They are definitely annoying.
I do love your suggestion of Cato de Pablo for Nymeria, btw! 🙂
You’re not referring to Cote de Pablo, are you? Because…
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTAyMjYyODA0MDVeQTJeQWpwZ15BbWU3MDg2MDE3ODI@._V1_UY1200_CR84,0,630,1200_AL_.jpg
Tell me that Cote de Pablo doesn’t look like an aged-up
Ten Bears,
You know the rules, Adriana, if I make the mistake it’s to see if people notice. Would I lie to you? Yes, I did mean Cote de P and in that picture she does look like an older but thinner faced Arya, you are right. I must go looking for my thinking cap because it looks like I haven’t put it on this morning.
I see what you did there 😉
As for Cote de Pablo, I think she has a similar face shape to MW 🙂
Sorry Adriana, the comment was by Ten Bears. I managed to break the lamp shade of a plug-in desk/table lamp (glass) and it’s put me off my stride. That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it
Dame of Mercia,
Oh, I’ve been more and more off my own stride! I’m in the midst of packing and needed my red silk scarf to protect my neck from my wool coat due to textile contact dermatitis — and was so mad at myself for prematurely packing it. I unpacked four boxes in search of it before I saw it wrapped around my bed post… having never been packed… and now I’m furious XD;
What’s #ARLTA?
Anyway, I’m not too excited about this news. Like some have said above, HBO is releasing these tentative tidbits for positive PR. To remind people they’re the home of GoT and all GRRM-related material. Sort of to keep them in the public conscious before House of the Dragon is far enough along the way to begin the marketing drive.
Also, HBO and their parent company trying to squeeze every ounce out of the IP they’ve bought off GRRM. The money men in suits, not the creatives, drive these decisions.
I think we’ll have to see how HotD (“hot-D”, as some podcasters call it 😀 ) does before any other spinoffs will be developed beyond an initial stage.
Dame of Mercia,
Not your fault it was in Moderation Purgatory for a over a day, so you would’ve missed it without scrolling back to see it..
As to the three alternatives presented in this article…
The Nine Voyages of the Sea Snake (Corlys Velaryon) would happen long before the events of HotD. He did those voyages in his 20s, 30s; he’d be in his 60s or 70s during the events in HotD. (Don’t quote me on the exact ages, I couldn’t be arsed to go and check on the Wikipedia – the point is that by the time of the HotD events, those voyages are at least a couple of decades in the past.)
Corlys Velaryon is such a badass that this idea for a spinoff appeals to me the most.
I remember two, three… four? years ago when the idea of spinoff shows was first floated by HBO and we all got into a frenzy about what we’d like to see.
Lots of people wanted Robert’s Rebellion. I never understood that. We already know the story, minus some details. It would’ve been a boring afternote to GoT, explaining (or not) some of those details. Also casting problem, having to cast all new actors to play younger Ned, younger Robert, younger Jaime, younger Cersei etc. after the “older” versions have done such a definitive job – that said, young Ned (I’m sorry I forget his name) did a good job being young Ned (young Sean Bean), so it’s not impossible.
Lots of people wanted Dunk & Egg, but apparently GRRM hadn’t sold the rights at thet time. Also, only three or the projected 12 novellas have actually been published. You see where this is going, right?
Dunk & Egg are also quite different in tone from the main ASoIaF books. More… family friendly? Also more bagatelle whereas ASoIaF tends to epic.
I could see existing three Dunk & Egg stories being a one-season series in the British mould. 6 episodes, each story getting two 50 (or even 90) minute episodes.
Back then, my favourite idea for a prequel was Dance of the Dragons. It’s far enough removed from GoT by time but it’d have all the court intrigue, the controversial (“grey”) characters I loved about GoT. However, I rued that maybe so many dragons was too expensive – I even devised ways to keep the dragons off-screen as much as possible! 😀
Then HBO announced the Long Night (“Blood Moon”) prequel, and I wasn’t all that excited about it. More of a “wait and see”, keep an open mind.
Lo and behold! Blood Moon was cancelled after the pilot and HBO latched onto Dance of the Dragons = HotD.
HBO could’ve saved a lot of money by going for the obvious GoT successor show, HotD, from the start.
Oh, yeah, I was supposedly trying to write about the three spinoffs now floated, got sidetracked by old stuff.
So, my favourite is the nine voyages of Corlys Velaryon. I just hope they won’t only use the same old “ship” at Linen Mill Studios they used for all GoT seaborne scenes! 😀
Flea Bottom??!? I could see that as a sitcom. Or a really dark thriller/crime drama. Not a heart-warming drama of the rough working-class people with a heart of gold. No, I just can’t get a handle on this Flea Bottom idea. Maybe they surprise me and it’ll be great.
Nymeria and the 10,000 ships? Yawn. Refugees seeking a new home for years – OK, a TV show could condense it into a few months. Emphasise her disagreement with Prince Garin, and she’s proved right… But then all the misery, as GRRM wrote it, before they land in Dorne, via Sothoroys, Summer Islands etc., most of the refugees dead along the way.
Also, as a woman, I’ve become allergic to this “warrior queen/princess” trope. It’s good to see girls and women have bigger roles in fantasy literature and TV/film. But do they always have to be… so conforming to male stereotypes? Be kind of like a man, fight like a man… But be sexy. Boobs. Male fantasies of what “cool” women are, i.e. badass fighters, just like men. But also sexy. Boobs. Potentially available sexually to the males.
Because if these badass women reject male sexual advances, they’re just witches and bitches and bloody lesbians. Never mind she might have a special someone, male or female, and not giving in to casual male entitlement is the sane, normal thing to do.
Nymeria and the ten thousand ships could be more realistically a few hundred ships and Nymeria debasing herself to marry the second most powerful Dornish lord, Martel, to gain some foothold, some safety for her people.
That’s not a resounding, triumphant story most Nymeria fans (such as Arya Stark) want to hear.
This could be an interesting TV series after all. If it doesn’t go the badasserry way but depicts the degredations a female leader has to endure to secure the safety of her people. I’m now warming to the idea… But, nah, HBO won’t go there.
talvikorppi,
I think “badassery” can be depicted in various ways. I don’t think Nymeria necessarily needs to be a woman leader debasing/degrading herself (admittedly, I don’t think I’d personally watch that series) but! It doesn’t need to go fully the other way either (“be kind of like a man, fight like a man”, sexy, boobs, etc.).
I believe Nymeria was a character who doesn’t totally meet the description of what you described vis a vis a warrior queen/princess — she led and commanded armies but she didn’t bear arms in battle. She’s also described as having a cunning, wisdom, and strong will:
I think Nymeria can command and lead armies while still having some traditionally feminine aspects (in the books, Arya has a few herself — she hasn’t rejected femininity like Cersei or deemed it as the enemy. Arya’s issue seems to be she doesn’t want to be limited by gender) and using that intellect for success without having to get physically martial. I think she can still be “badass” in a way that doesn’t require having to physically fight like a man all the time 🙂 Margaery was a politically astute character who used her intellect to take some control in her marriages. I think it’s possible Nymeria can do something similar without having it to be a degrading experience.
Her story, as told, does already involve some realistic difficulties an adaptation could explore (eg. “Nymeria’s voyage was long and terrible. More than a hundred ships foundered and sank in the first storm her fleet encountered. As many or more turned back in fear, and were taken by slavers out of Volantis. Others fell behind or drifted away, never to be seen again.”) As a result, I don’t think it has to be a purely resounding or triumphant story — it seems Nymeria experiences quite a few difficulties and the reality of these difficulties can make Nymeria seem more human and perhaps, relatable.
Just my two cents though 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Yes! I take your points. But will the money men in suits now controlling the creative output of HBO do? Or will they go for the male fantasy trope of “sexy warrior princess, who’ll ultimately submit (sexually) to the male hero”?
Women and girls can be heroes in their own right. They do not have to wield weapons. Fortitude, strenght in the face of adversity, using every means they have, bending, not breaking. Surviving horrific experiences, yet have the will to do what’s right. That kind of thing. Not just be “almost like men” and wield a weapon well enough. This whole weapon thing is so male.
Intelligence, networks, sheltering and protecting “weapons men”. Even knitting the woolens that protect the weapons men from hypothermia – also exchanging a lot of intelligence during their “inconsequential women’s gossip”. Also, during WWII, French, Belgian and Dutch resistance women knitted scarves with coded messages. Stupid German Nazi officers didn’t get on to it because they dismissed knitting women and didn’t know their knit from purl, ha ha!
So, yes, women and girls can make a difference without becoming pseudo-men. That is why I find the warrior-princess trope so tiresome. To be a hero you have to be like a man, except a feisty (sexy) girl, disdainful of other girls/women because they’re stupid and weak. Misogynistic or what? (Arya Stark and Cersei Lannister are the prime examples of internalised misogyny in ASoIaF.)
In fantasy, warrior-princesses could have supernatural powers… But anything other than brute force is seen as “underhand” or “sneaky”, or not “honourable”. Apparently only brute (male) force against brute (male) force is “honourable”.
Go figure.
talvikorppi,
Well, I think that’s putting the cart before the horse a bit 🙂 I’d say it’s a bit early to say and we don’t really know how much control they ultimately have over stuff like this. I imagine they can advise on the general direction, nix a pilot ala Blood Moon, suggest changes, etc. but if it passes the right tests and gets a green light, I don’t think that means the (potential) show is trapped into doing this/that/or the other thing or fulfilling a male stereotype fantasy. GRRM may have some say in this and may participate in this show in his never-ending quest to procrastinate on TWOW 😉 I mean, Nymeria isn’t — per source material — simply a man-like woman who fights. She’s also a bunch of other things. Her story is, as presented in TWOIAF, pretty bare-bones like the HotD source material and offers opportunity for expansion, exploration, and complex characterization.
In my view, even if we have a female character wielding weapons or physically fighting and showing martial prowess, I don’t this means they’re automatically masculine or devoid of femininity — it just may not be traditional femininity. Women do (and have) fought with weapons as well for practical purposes — defense and hunting fulfill two needs. Yet, I don’t think it needs to be necessarily male to do so.
Knitting is a good example of something that’s been coded traditionally feminine but men have done it as well for practical purposes 🙂 We all need clothes!
I’m not terribly bothered by the trope just because I don’t think it means women have to be men in order to take on these roles (martial, using weapons, fierce, physical).
Cersei is disdainful of femininity because she views it as the reason she can’t be who she wants to be (her father’s heir in contrast to her male twin Jaime). However, Arya doesn’t seem to resent femininity at all. She wants to fight with a sword because it’s something she’s intrigued by, something she ends up excelling in, and she’s terrible at needlework and sewing (plus, criticism of her skills and comparison to Sansa doesn’t help out much there). She admires quite a few fierce female figures, she develops positive relationships with traditionally female figures in the story, she’s irritated when people think she’s a boy, she’s curious about the courtesans in Braavos, she tells Jon that “the woman is important too!” when Jon questions why Joffrey has both a lion and stag on his shield as opposed to just the royal sigil.
I never got the impression Arya hates femininity, just that she doesn’t want to be limited to a lifestyle she may not want and doesn’t feel comfortable in traditionally feminine roles as deemed appropriate by Westeros.
I think the supernatural is linked to sorcery and witchcraft, which does have a history of mistrust attached to it. However, I don’t think “brute force” is the only acceptable option for a “warrior princess” type — resourcefulness, intelligence, and leadership skills also seem to be valued traits in this archetype as far as I’ve seen. And Nymeria is definitely resourceful, intelligent, and a leader 🙂 She may not fight in battle herself but she will lead men.
To expand on this, whoever (or whatever group) is deciding on what goes through to production and what ends up in the scrap bin may not all be men — or have the same stereotypical-male-fantasy ideas. They may not even want this fantasy archetype at all. They’re unknown individuals to us. Especially with HBO shows like Six Feet Under, complex characterization isn’t foreign to HBO. I think it’s hard to say at this point because we don’t know who is making these decisions and why.
PS! I also want to say that these are other ways women and girls can excel and make a difference via utilizing traditionally feminine activities and without having to wield weapons — you’re right! And there are so many creative ways to do so — just like how you’ve outlined here!
It’s just that I don’t think women using weapons or having a desire/skill to physically fight (instead of participating in traditionally feminine past times) makes a female character “almost like men” by itself. I’d say a character can be fine with her gender and/or have femininity (rather than disdain it) while still having martial abilities or wielding weapons 🙂
In ASOIAF, Brienne is a fairly feminine character with traditionally feminine dreams and aspirations but becomes a lady knight due to her appearance and size. At the risk of repeating myself above, I don’t think Arya hates femininity or views it as weak. I think it was more that she didn’t want to conform to Westerosi gender standards, feeling frustrated with her skill in those roles, and desired something else other than what was deemed acceptable to her by Westerosi society. Her talents ended up being more in the martial realm, which I think is fair. She likes Lady Smallwood (who’d she’d be willing to attempt needlework for if Lady Smallwood asked her to), she cared for the young girl Weasel, she feels guilty over not conforming better to gender ideals per her mother’s wishes, and when Arya dislikes something or someone, it doesn’t ever seem to be because of femininity but because of the person themselves or the activity (whether it be frustrating needlework and sewing, hate for Cersei, irritation with Sansa, or frustration over Myrcella receiving praise from Septa Mordane for crooked stitches while she just gets grief). I don’t think Arya’s core issue is with being a girl or hating other girls because they’re girls — but with Westeros wanting her to conform to roles she feels ill-suited for and displaced in.
Cersei, though, definitely hates femininity — both her own and in others.
talvikorppi,
”What’s #ARLTA?”
Another acronym. ⚠️
talvikorppi,
”Women and girls can be heroes in their own right. They do not have to wield weapons. Fortitude, strenght in the face of adversity, using every means they have, bending, not breaking. Surviving horrific experiences, yet have the will to do what’s right. That kind of thing. Not just be “almost like men” and wield a weapon well enough. This whole weapon thing is so male.
I don’t disagree. Women superheroes in skin tight catsuits and high heels karate chopping bad guys does get tiresome.(Though I have to confess I did like Anne Hathaway as Selena Kyle/Catwoman in one of the Batman movies, and Young Olenna (Diana Rigg) as Emma Peel in reruns of the TV show “The Avengers.”)
Let me ask you: Can you give me some examples of TV or movie heroines who defied the weapon-wielding, “do it like a dude” stereotype, or the “warrior princess” trope?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/59/a6/95/59a695f069356f0a6184b2f228866d24.png
I’m thinking Jessica Chastain as the cerebral CIA agent heroine Maya in “Zero Dark Thirty,” Jodie Foster as Clarice Starling in “Silence of the Lambs, Kim Dickens as Gloria in “The Zero Effect” (one of my all-time favorite movies), Ellen Page in “Hard Candy,” Jennifer Lawrence in “Silver Linings Playbook,” and Isla Fisher in just about anything. Oh, and Reese Witherspoon as Vanessa in “Freeway,” Keira Knightley as Elizabeth Bennet in “Pride & Prejudice”
and Emma Thompson as Elenore in “Sense & Sensibility.”
Oh! This reminded me of the following gif if you’ve seen Arrested Development 😉
https://gifer.com/en/59nr
talvikorppi,
I didn’t know about knitting in code in World War II, talvikorppi. I’ll have to google that and find out a bit more.
In history and folklore was a “warrior” princess/queen one who actually indulged in fisticuffs or a woman who donned armour and went with her army to battle without necessarily slogging it out? In English history Eleanor of Aquitaine and Elizabeth I accompanied their troops though I don’t know that they actually fought. What about Isabella of Castile? Are there any people from Spain who can fill me in on whether Isabella rode into battle? Of course with some of the warrior women we don’t know what is history and what is legend as with Irish Queen Maeve (Irish people spell her name differently). https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/when-irish-legends-and-history-combine-tomb-fairy-queen-maeve-007500
I can’t remember the story offhand but there is a Queen Zenobia in Geoffrey Chaucer’s ‘Canterbury Tales’.
For a bit of levity, although I’ve mentioned it before here is something about a late 19th century duel where two European noblewomen had a duel about flower arrangements. Nobody was hurt fortunately and the protagonists weren’t actually topless (though there are drawings out there with boobs flopping in the breeze in the incident, but they aren’t accurate) – they only stripped down to their corset and presumably still had their skirts on. https://youtu.be/ma-x-cGtcYA
Ten Bears,
Wasn’t there a super bright computer whizz kid (female) in ‘Criminal Minds’
Something I found online about 9 female warriors – most of them are quite well known but the oriental ladies were new to me. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/59287/9-female-warriors-who-made-their-mark-history
There are the Amazons who again are on the borderline between history and legend. I know there were bones with XX chromosomes found at the burial site of some archers in (I think) China. I’ll have to look that up.
loco73,
As the article mentioned…we just had a fully filmed, produced pilot and a series that was expected to be green lit and go into production…but the project ended up being shut down and discarded in its entirety. And “Blood Moon” (“The Long Night”) was something I was way more interested in than anything mentioned here.
The Long Night would have taken place in the far distant past, and any connection to the characters and events in Game of Thrones would have been so tenuous, the two shows might as well have taken place in different fictional universes. Thus, the audience appeal would have been just to the name. That may be at least one of the reasons HBO axed it.
By contrast, these proposed other shows would take place during the time Westeros was ruled by the same feudal power structure and families we know from Game of Thrones, and so audiences may be eager to re-enter that fictional universe.
Even entertaining this amount of ideas is starting to resemble the “let’s throw everything to the wall and see what sticks” mentality.
When you find something that works, you try to squeeze everything you can out of it. We engineers do this all of the time, and you get more technologies as a result. HBO is doing this to maximize revenue, which is their job as a for-profit company. I’d rather have them trying four story ideas set in the Westeros we know, than one story idea in some long-ago place which is Westeros only in name.
Off topic, but George RR Martin signed a 5 year deal with HBO:
https://www.ign.com/articles/george-rr-martin-five-year-deal-hbo-game-of-thrones
Young Dragon,
(From the article you cited):
”The author’s In the Lost Lands, a collection of fantasy adventure short stories, is being developed as a feature film, with Paul W.S. Anderson attached to direct and Milla Jovovich and Dave Bautista set to star.”
I’d watch that. LeeLoo (= The Fifth Element) + Guardians of the Galaxy’s Drax the Destroyer.
”On top of that, Martin has stated that he hopes to finish The Winds of Winter sometime by the end of this year.”
Hahahahahaha. LoL. 😁
Hahahahaha. 🤣🤣😂😂😆😆
Hopes to fin… Hahahahaha 🙃🤪🦄
Were you the one that recommended Stephen King’s book on writing to me? or was it Adrianacandle? If GRRM would have only followed Mr. King’s advice, he would have been done long ago. He said it was important to write at least 1000 words a day as part of your writer’s work day. Actually Stephen King says he writes at least 2000 before he can leave his office, but he said 1000 was still fine. Of course, it’s still possible GRRM would have just written reams of Westeros ancestral family trees going back further than the Long Night instead of writing TWOW. I just flashed on seeing reams of “No work and no play makes George a dull boy”. Mr. King also recommends throwing away my TV, which is really hard for me to do. I am taking his advice and reading more.
I think that was Ten Bears. I believe I recommended this podcast going over how Stephen King kept getting rejected and rejected and rejected until he finally got his break 🙂 From the podcast’s page:
I think a lot of this podcast is sourced from the book you’re reading, Tron! 🙂
As for GRRM, I think part of the issue here is that writers work differently and putting in the time and writing as much as he can per day may not solve the problem. Sitting down and writing 1,000 words a day clearly works for King — but it may not work for GRRM (and hasn’t worked for me), who seems to be a bit of a perfectionist. Especially in creative areas, there’s so much going on and sometimes, things can’t necessarily be solved by putting in the time — which can lead to a ton of frustration and despair. I expect GRRM is frustrated and it’s my speculation that’s why he’s doing all of these other projects: because he may feel more productive doing other projects since he may not be so exhausted/frustrated by them. As of ADWD, he has thrown a ton in the air that he’s got to try and tie together coherently.
Speaking of King again, here’s a conversation between King and GRRM where GRRM asks him how does he write so fast XD
Semi Off-Topic
🪡
re: Jojen, Arya, King’s Road clothes store
Excerpted from March 23, 2021 Daily Mail:
“Iris Law and Maisie Williams were seen in character for the first time on the set of Danny Boyle’s Sex Pistols drama in London on Monday.
The daughter of actor Jude Law, 20, looked unrecognisable as she mastered Soo Catwoman’s edgy haircut, while the former Game of Thrones star, 23, transformed into punk icon Jordan with spiked white hair.
“Pistols” – set for release next year – is based on the legendary rock band…. and their rise to fame in the 1970s.”
……
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/03/23/12/40828840-9393011-image-a-50_1616502464319.jpg
Different appearance: Actress Maisie looked equally kooky in a peroxide blonde wig and dark make-up as she also kept warm in a padded jacket
….
“Model Pamela Rooke, also known as Jordan [Maisie Williams], was a famous face at the group’s largest performances and worked with fashion designer Vivienne Westwood.
The duo also join Thomas Brodie-Sangster, Talulah Riley, and Christian Lees in the upcoming programme.
A first look image for the TV series, which is based on the memoir of Sex Pistols guitarist Steve Jones, was also revealed following the casting announcement.
Thomas is set to take on the role of Pistols manager Malcolm McLaren, while Talulah will play fashion icon Vivienne…
The six-episode series began principal photography earlier this month…”
Tron79,
FYI 3/23/21 Daily Mail article:
Iris Law masters Soo Catwoman’s edgy haircut as she and Maisie Williams are seen in character for the first time on the set of Sex Pistols drama
By Rianne Addo and Bryony Jewell For Mailonline
12:50 23 Mar 2021, updated 12:52 23 Mar 2021
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9393011/Iris-Law-Maisie-Williams-seen-character-time-set-Sex-Pistols-drama.html
Tron79,
”Were you the one that recommended Stephen King’s book on writing to me? or was it Adrianacandle?
I think it was I.
“If GRRM would have only followed Mr. King’s advice, he would have been done long ago. He said it was important to write at least 1000 words a day as part of your writer’s work day. Actually Stephen King says he writes at least 2000 before he can leave his office, but he said 1000 was still fine. Of course, it’s still possible GRRM would have just written reams of Westeros ancestral family trees going back further than the Long Night instead of writing TWOW.”
Although I read “On Writing” a long time ago, I remember thinking it could have been titled “Get A Good Editor!” From Stephen King’s experience,
a good editor is critical even for the best author, to save him from himself, e.g., help him avoid many of the pitfalls and overindulges that cause bloating and wasted pages.
Adrianacandle,
I wonder how GRRM’s exasperated publisher feels about GRRM signing a new five-year, mid-eight figures* development deal with HBO.
* That’s gotta be roughly $40,000,000 to $60,000,000 over five years, right? Or $10,000,000 a year?
Ten Bears,
I don’t think it’s a money thing so much as a project thing. GRRM isn’t exactly under financial strain, especially not with royalties. By accepting new projects and writing world books, it’s my speculation that he wants to feel productive at something and not so frustrated with the stop and flow issues he’s been experiencing with ASOIAF. That’s how I feel sometimes. If I’m having a hard time with a project, it becomes harder and harder to deal with and transforms into quite the albatross. He has spoken about feeling like a failure, including in that link above. As we spoke about before, “good enough” may not be good enough — also lending itself to frustration. A new project and a fresh slate kind of offers freedom from from that feeling.
His publisher probably does feel exasperated but I don’t imagine that’ll change anything.
I watch too much TV but I did watch two great shows recently about JD Salinger; My Salinger Year and Rebel in the Rye. To JD, the publisher was the road block to pure writing. He seemed like he went nuts as he went into seclusion to avoid the publishers and embrace writing purity. I believe he was able to live on the royalties of Catcher in the Rye so it seems that the publisher’s money WAS necessary for him to pursue his writing purity. (I’m currently re reading JD’s two books now). I wonder if GRRM is cursed by the idea of having to publish. It is probably difficult for him to put the publisher out of his mind and get back to pure writing for the sake of the writing.
Yeah, I think GRRM probably feels the pressure to publish, especially with the demand for it — which, I think, makes it harder. It seems like he has tried seclusion but… uh… 🙂
However, I believe GRRM has other sources of income and is already pulling in quite a bit from his books and HBO royalties from GoT (which I imagine would have likely gone up with the prequels HBO is interested in, even without this new contract). So it doesn’t appear he’s in need of money but something to clear up whatever is blocking him from progress.
Doesn’t look like seclusion fixed it so procrastination it is…
He said it was important to write at least 1000 words a day as part of your writer’s work day. Actually Stephen King says he writes at least 2000 before he can leave his office, but he said 1000 was still fine.
Of the two writers sired by Valentine Fleming, the lesser one claimed he obtained 1,400 “useable” words per day, pounding away at his typewriter in GoldenEye. Two items to consider:
— He was a notorious liar;
— He characterized this literary output as “trivial piffle.”
😀
There’s a prayer (and I think the principles addressed therein can be used in a non-religious context except one would have to rely on oneself and not a deity) asking for: “…the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference .”. Well, GRRM’s writing pace is something that I as an individual can’t change and I try now to be neutral on that matter. It would be NICE if the series in book form could be completed but I don’t check GRRM’s NotaBlog daily to see what’s happening.
I mentioned before that I think I’ve slowed down especially since I had the gluten intolerance diagnosis four and a half years ago. It could be age-related also of course. Now I don’t know how GRRM’s health is and it isn’t really my concern but he could have problems he doesn’t want to emblazon to the world. That’s just my surmising he may be as fit as a flea. I saw a video recently of Toni Basil (dancer and choreographer and now quite well on in her 70s) dancing and she’s a lot fitter than I am even though she has a few years on me. Toni Basil from 2017 https://youtu.be/Fxm-ugrQXw0
Dame of Mercia,
”…I saw a video recently of Toni Basil (dancer and choreographer and now quite well on in her 70s) dancing and she’s a lot fitter than I am even though she has a few years on me. Toni Basil from 2017 [link omitted]“
Ooh! Can we go down a Toni Basil rabbit hole? I’m a huge fan.
Most people remember Toni Basil for this song* from 1982, without noticing what an extraordinary dancer she was – or that she was 37 or 38 at the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1pt5pXFjUE
To me, Toni Basil is a pop culture icon –
* ⚠️ Earworm Warning. Also…Has there ever been a cheerleading movie that did not use this Toni Basil song?
Dame of Mercia,
”GRRM’s writing pace is something that I as an individual can’t change and I try now to be neutral on that matter…”
“I’m not trying to change your writing pace; I’m denying its existence.”
– Tyrion Lannister
Dame of Mercia,
The YouTube video you posted at 7:00 am shows Toni Basil dancing on November 12, 2017, when she was 74 years old.
If you go down a rabbit hole 54 years into the past to November, 1963…
…here’s Toni Basil, featured dancer in a filming documentary for the movie “Robin and the 7 Hoods” (released 1964) with Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby, Dean Martin, and Sammy Davis, Jr.
She was 20 when this documentary was filmed in November, 1963.
(Caveat: Some of the narrator’s comments (now) come off as condescending and sexist.😡)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUZXOdsEPJo
Although the clip is only 4:26 long, if you want to fast-forward to portions highlighting Toni Basil:
1:50 – 2:09 (“our little dancer” with Bing Crosby)
2:30 – 2:43 (with Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin)
2:45 – 3:27 (dancer in the center during musical number)
3:53 – 4:20 (in the pink suit walking down steps arm in arm with Sinatra)
Comparing her dancing and physical appearance in November, 1963 and November, 2017, one might think Toni Basil got ahold of Melisandre’s ruby red anti-aging choker.
Ten Bears,
So Rory McCann popped up today!
He plays the Bird Master in the last 15 minutes of the first episode of a new Netflix series The Irregulars. I couldn’t tell it was him at first since he was covered up in a long cape raincoat. But then he said something and then you could see his face. I wouldn’t say 15 minutes of Rory is worth buying Netflix for you but it was nice to see him take a role in something. The Irregulars stars 4 teens on the streets of London who are hired by Dr Watson to investigate Evil supernatural occurrences. One of the teens has useful visions. Rory has a good scene with one of the girls which made me have a flash of Arya since the height difference was similar.
Tron79,
So Rory McCann popped up today!
He plays the Bird Master in the last 15 minutes of the first episode of a new Netflix series The Irregulars. I couldn’t tell it was him at first since he was covered up in a long cape raincoat. But then he said something and then you could see his face…”
• So you “couldn’t tell it was him at first since he was covered up in a long cape raincoat.” Hmmm.
I wonder if that was a bit of stunt-casting to capitalize on the big scene from the cold open of S6e7 of Game of Thrones:
(Burlington Bar reaction to the return of the Hound, S6e7):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIjZUxv5Qes
• Six Degrees of Game of Thrones: According to IMDB, in addition to Rory McCann as the Little Bird Master – I mean the Bird Master – “The Irregulars” also features Dominic Carter (Janos Slynt) as a dock worker, and Ian Whyte (Wun Wun) as “Plague Doctor.”
• I am still puzzled that Rory McCann hasn’t cashed in on his popularity from playing fan favorite Sandor Clegane in GoT. Except for a couple of bit parts (e.g., a Vin Diesel flick and Jumanji sequel), he hasn’t appeared in any shows, movies or commercials since GoT ended. Perhaps he’s content to come ashore for a week or two to shoot his part, and then go out to sea again for the rest of the year.
Anyway, thanks for the Sandor Alert!
🐓 🐓
Tron79,
Off-topic (those who loathe derailments of threads avert your eyes). Considering that he created a very methodical detective in Sherlock Holmes it is perhaps surprising that he was duped by the “Cottingley Fairies” hoax which was carried out by two young girls. https://youtu.be/Fki-ELK3G5g https://youtu.be/uSj5uOWeOOE That said, ACD did help procure the freedom of an Indian doctor who had been framed for some horses and cattle. I think there was racism involved. It took place in Staffordshire I’m sorry to say. I’ve not linked anything about the killings because it upsets me too much.
It feels to me very much like HBO have looked at what Disney are doing with Marvel and decided they will go the same route with ASOIAF material.
These are some interesting spin offs though because other than a World of Ice & Fire there is very little material to work off. Part of me feels this could end up a bit like the Mandalorian which was a massive success by having new material but holding the same feel as the original star wars trilogy, could HBO achieve the same?