Dunk and Egg in Early Development, and More Game of Thrones Prequels Possible!

Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

Fantastic news for Ice and Fire fans today! After being told for years that it was not happening, some of our most beloved characters may be coming to HBO in the future. Variety reported today a television adaptation of the “Dunk and Egg” stories is currently in the works. For the show-only folks, these novellas by George R.R. Martin follow the adventures of Duncan the Tall and a mysterious boy called Egg, set 90 years before Game of Thrones.

There are three novellas in the “Dunk and Egg” series, providing plenty of material to work with: “The Hedge Knight”, “The Sworn Sword”, and “The Mystery Knight”, and GRRM has said several times he plans to write more (yes, we know, we’ll believe it when we see it). The three novellas were published together as A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms; the title was referenced in the eighth and final season of Game of Thrones, with the knighting of Brienne of Tarth.

According to Variety, no writers are attached to the project at the moment, but it’s “a high priority for HBO.” Given what a lousy year HBO has had, that’s not a shock.

Entertainment Weekly chimed in as well, after the Variety scoop dropped. They share that HBO is looking to potentially develop other ideas from the Ice and Fire world, and that “a prequel series based on Robert’s Rebellion” is being contemplated. EW confirms that “all the concepts are prequels set in Westeros and Essos before the events in GoT; there are no sequels or spin-offs from the original series currently under consideration.”

According to EW, HBO is looking to “go big on Thrones for HBO and HBO Max in a way that’s not entirely unlike what Disney has done with Star Wars and Disney+.” However at the moment, “No projects have been officially put into development as of yet; plans are fluid and could change. ”

That is quite the info bomb today, folks! For years, we’ve all been begging for Robert’s Rebellion and Dunk & Egg, but they said NO. We said okay, fine, and moved on. 2021 just might be an okay year after all.

Dunk & Egg is still in early development, but hey that never stopped us from fancasting, right? Have at it!

139 responses

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    1. ”According to Variety, no writers are attached to the [Dunk and Egg] project at the moment, but it’s “a high priority for HBO.” Given what a lousy year HBO has had, that’s not a shock.”

      By way of clarification, is the “lousy year” because of pandemic-related production shutdowns, or have other HBO shows tanked? (Sorry. I’m not plugged in to entertainment news, nor have I been following any other series on HBO; in fact, I have not watched much TV after GoT signed off.)

      ”EW confirms that “all the concepts are prequels set in Westeros and Essos before the events in GoT; there are no sequels or spin-offs from the original series currently under consideration.”

      Ummm…If HBO just had a lousy year, one might think they’d be fully on board with a spin-off from the original series that would have a built-in audience, a popular character, and a fully-rested star.

      #ASNAWP. 🪡👸🏻

      ”According to EW, HBO is looking to “go big on Thrones for HBO and HBO Max in a way that’s not entirely unlike what Disney has done with Star Wars and Disney+.” However at the moment, “No projects have been officially put into development as of yet; plans are fluid and could change.”

      Well, okay then. The more projects they throw out there, the more likely it is that they’ll strike gold with one of them, like “The Mandalorian” has done for the otherwise moribund Star Wars franchise.

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    2. ”For the show-only folks, these novellas by George R.R. Martin follow the adventures of Duncan the Tall and a mysterious boy called Egg, set 90 years before Game of Thrones.”
      ***
      ”Dunk & Egg is still in early development, but hey that never stopped us from fancasting, right? Have at it!”

      As a show-only fan, I suppose I ought to research the two characters before I start blindly fancasting. However, is it true that Duncan the Tall was rumored to be

      an ancestor of Brienne of Tarth? And that “Egg” was a secret prince (Aegon) masquerading as a squire or sidekick to Duncan the Tall?

      I had a perfect candidate in mind for Duncan the Tall – Pennsylvania Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman. However, he recently announced he’s exploring a run for Senator or Governor of Pennsylvania in 2022, so he’s off my list.

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    3. This is very nice news! Sadly, my 2021 has started with the recent death of an online friend but a Dunk & Egg show sounds great. Even has the perfect name for a TV series!

      Ten Bears,

      However, is it true that Duncan the Tall was rumored to be an ancestor of Brienne of Tarth? And that “Egg” was a secret prince (Aegon) masquerading as a squire or sidekick to Duncan the Tall?

      You know, I recall something like that (or some kind of connection) but I’ll have to check the books. I’ll get back to you with that later 🙂

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    4. Perhaps GRRM has written some more Dunk & Egg stories.
      Anything to avoid finishing ASOIAF ………….

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    5. Ten Bears,

      I added spoiler tags. I was deliberately vague in the article, there’s no need to get into plot points to spoil people who haven’t read the stories! The question of spoilers for Dunk and Egg will have to be considered, but I think if we didn’t spoil anything in the article, don’t do it in the comments without spoiler tags. 🙂

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    6. Yes to everything going into the development pipeline! Fabulous news much needed in 2020 continued. Made my day!
      Please let them hire Bryan Cogman for one of these adaptations!

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    7. Milky, milk, milk awaaaayyyy! Of all the subject matter from the GOT world, this is the one I’m interested in the least. I’ve had the book for almost a decade and never read it.

      Despite what people say….I would have much preferred to have seen The Long Night successfully adapted for HBO, if not as a series, then at least as a massive miniseries.

      As for the rest… milking this franchise is not advisable…but hell… beating dead things or milking them dry of life seems in fashion these days. Can’t wait until the direct sequel series or miniseries to GOT is announced…you know the one where Dany isn’t really dead but comes back with a vengeance and keeps on breaking the wheel.

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    8. The problem is that I actually want to see most of the new “Star Wars” projects on Disney Plus…whereas I have little to no interest in terms of upcoming GOT content…

      Never say never… but it looks and feels halph-hazzard. It’s always about announcements, announcements with little to no substance behind.

      So maybe ease off the hype until there’s more to show rather than only tell!

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    9. However, is it true that Duncan the Tall was rumored to be

      There is a lot of similarity in the dynamic between Dunk & Egg as we see between Brienne & Pod in the later seasons of GOT, and the 4th book A Feast For Crows. That’s just initially in the first four D&E novellas (the 4th is written by not yet released I believe, or is awaiting rewrites). There is suppose to be 9 novellas total, leading up to the events that impact GOT. Dunk is like Forrest Gump, bumbling into playing a part in major historical events.

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    10. Sue the Fury,

      Ah, okay, thanks!
      Even though I have not read any of the Dunk & Egg books, if I “fancast” based on second-hand (and possibly inaccurate) descriptions, I’ll be sure to cover references to the source material with spoiler coding.

      I assume Duncan is actually very tall, in order to earn a sobriquet like “Duncan the Tall.” Though actors cast for TV don’t have to match perfectly the physical descriptions in the books (I remember GRRM dismissing supposed purists’ grievances that show! Syrio wasn’t bald like book! Syrio), I’m assuming the prequel will be looking for a big fella who towers over other characters, like the Hound or the Mountain did in GoT.

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    11. Tron79: I’m very sorry this happened.

      Thank-you, Tron 🙂 Hoping 2021 proves to better from this point on and for the world at large!

      Ten Bears,

      However, is it true that Duncan the Tall was rumored to be an ancestor of Brienne of Tarth? And that “Egg” was a secret prince (Aegon) masquerading as a squire or sidekick to Duncan the Tall?

      You’ve got a great memory! Looks like it was reported that GRRM confirmed this rumour at a BaltiCon 50. From a quick reskim of the Reddit thread discussing this, it looks like it’s pretty accepted and nobody’s come out to debunk it but I wasn’t reading very thoroughly.

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    12. loco73,

      ”Despite what people say….I would have much preferred to have seen The Long Night successfully adapted for HBO, if not as a series, then at least as a massive miniseries.”

      But what if (*dons tinfoil hat*)

      there never was a first Long Night? I say it was all propaganda. At least based on the revelations in the show through S6. The WWs were the victims, not the villains.

      ”As for the rest… milking this franchise is not advisable…but hell… beating dead things or milking them dry of life seems in fashion these days.”

      You mean beating “dead things in the water.”

      ”Can’t wait until the direct sequel series or miniseries to GOT is announced…you know the one where Dany isn’t really dead but comes back with a vengeance and keeps on breaking the wheel.”

      Okay, I know you’re being facetious, and yet…
      Wasn’t it kind of odd that Drogon scooped up Dany’s still-warm body and hightailed it towards
      Volantis (?), where the Lord of Light’s Red Temple priestesses had anointed Dany the Lord’s Chosen and consider her the savior of the world? For High Priestess “We Serve the same Queen” Kinvara and her disciples, resurrecting Daenerys ought to be a piece of cake. Kinvara had already foretold that Dany would “burn nonbelievers by the thousands,” so Dany’s escapades in KL would hardly dissuade them from bringing her back from the dead.
      Why leave the door open like that, instead of simply having an Unsullied or Dothraki catch Jon with the bloody dagger, and then have a quick burial or funeral pyre scene?

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    13. Sue the Fury:
      Putting anything under a spoiler tag is fine!

      Ok…

      anything

      😉

      Hope this option has wings! No dragons, but many eggs! Besides the intriguing D&E lore, the possibilities with Bloodraven and the other Great Bastards should prove fun.

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    14. Ten Bears,

      My thoughts are that I don’t think D&D really intended on opening this door. I don’t know if a funeral pyre would be as appropriate as being carried away by her dragon, sort of like a scene from a legend. I know there are fan theories but I don’t think D&D were intentionally trying to spark this opening, particularly since it doesn’t sound like they’re coming back to the world of ASOIAF (GoT as we know it seems done and done) while GRRM still has yet to finish a book he started in 2011(?) with a few more books left to boot. We have yet to know what differences in details there are (if we ever find out). There’s also that Kinvara is a show-only character who (as far as I can recall) cited lines that were unique to the show. These lines don’t really have a book counterpart to them.

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    15. Hodors Bastard,

      Speaking of

      ”many eggs,” I’m already confused by all of the Eggs/Aegons running around in the different timelines:

      – On the GoT show at least, Jon Snow’s real name was Aegon Targaryen even though his deceased half-brother had also been named Aegon. I don’t recall that there was ever any explanation why Lyanna and Rhaegar named their baby Aegon 2.0. (Was Rhaegar, at the time he’d knocked up Lyanna or during her pregnancy, even aware his own two children with Elia had been killed?)
      – Aegon the Conqueror took over the continent and united the Seven Kingdoms under Targaryen rule. (Yes, I know: As a certain “student of history” on the show pointed out, it wasn’t just Aegon. It was Aegon and his sisters, Rhaenys and Visenya.)
      – Maester Aemon’s younger brother was named Aegon, nicknamed “Egg.” (See Aemon’s line, in the books and the show: “Egg! I dreamed I was old.”)
      – It’s my understanding that HotD’s portrayal of the Alicent vs. Rhaenys “Dance of the Dragons” also includes another Aegon (Alicent’s son maybe?)

      I don’t have a handle on the chronologies. I do know Maester Aemon was quite old by the time of the events in GoT.
      Is the “Egg” in D&E Aemon’s brother, or a different Aegon entirely?

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    16. Ten Bears,

      there never was a first Long Night? I say it was all propaganda. At least based on the revelations in the show through S6. The WWs were the victims, not the villains.

      I think, as far as the show goes, that’d be a cool AU. However, as far as ASOIAF goes and ASOIAF itself, I don’t know how viable this theory would be since there does seem to be evidence of a first Long Night in GRRM’s material — and these pieces of source material seem to be what the new prequels are based on.

      The Others appear to be an entirely different, sentient, fairly alien race of their own with a different origin separate from the Children of the Forest. The Others in the books don’t seem to be created by the Children of the Forest to fight the humans as it seems to have happened in the show. Instead, it’s like they’re their own species entirely. They’re pretty creepy in the books and I think a lot of the fear comes from that they aren’t seen and they only come at night, where they pick off one or two people from a group. Often stragglers if I remember right. They’re mystical, unknown, unfamiliar, far less corporeal. It’s almost like a piece of ghostly psychological horror.

      I know I’ve mentioned this before so please forgive me for repeating! While it’s possible details may have been fabricated, twisted, or misunderstood about the Long Night, completely separate parts of the world (Rhoynar of Essos and lands in the far far East, like Yi Ti) report a Long Night with Other-sounding creatures. Add to that, the Wall was created for a reason while the Others forced the humans and Children of the Forest to make a common cause, fight together, and erect the Wall. As a result, I’m inclined to believe something really significant happened and the Others were an issue thousands of years ago.

      How it was solved is up to legend — I think it’s a combination of embellishment, fact, and myth.

      Is the “Egg” in D&E Aemon’s brother, or a different Aegon entirely?

      Aegon seems to be the Michael of Targaryen names 🙂 But yes, this Aegon is Aemon’s brother — Aegon V 🙂 Currently, there are 15 known Aegons in ASOIAF and supplementary material.

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    17. Adrianacandle,

      So if this Egg is

      Maester Aemon’s brother, conceivably the prequel could feature young Aemon before he abdicated and joined the NW (as he related to Jon Snow on GoT).

      Portraying Aemon’s backstory could be interesting. Though technically that wouldn’t constitute a “sequel or spin-off from the original series,” it would provide a direct connection to GoT

      and pay homage to it.

      I’m sure I’ve mentioned this before: Star Trek: The Next Generation, in its series premiere, effectively paid homage to the original series by including a scene with an aged Doctor (now Admiral) McCoy. It was a nice callback.

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    18. I would love to see the Dunk and Egg stories put on the screen. Unlike the other potential series, for D&E graphic novels exist (well, for the three novellas that are published so far). So it would be interesting if the casting follows those depictions – they would work for me. While Dunk (thick as a castle wall)

      will eventually become head of Aegon’s Kingsguard, he is just tall, but not really a particularly well-trained knight (which he probably isn’t either) or physically impressive. He learned fighting in flea-bottom, is terrible at jousting, but similar to his future relative he is far more noble and knightly than the actual knights.

      Can’t wait to see several of the other historical figures that appear in the D&E novellas…

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    19. Ten Bears,

      Oddly enough that thought never occurred to me but you’re right.

      D&E could feature a younger Aemon and before he became a maester — now D&E is really looking appealing to me! I imagine D&E would touch on Aemon’s backstory, even if Aemon is not front and center himself and we only get a small part of it, but we’d see him in the context of Egg’s story.

      I’m sure I’ve mentioned this before: Star Trek: The Next Generation, in its series premiere, effectively paid homage to the original series by including a scene with an aged Doctor (now Admiral) McCoy. It was a nice callback.

      That was a great clip.

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    20. Adrianacandle,

      I’m sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, Adriana.

      I haven’t read the D&E short novels but am not averse to seeing a young Character X – I’m rubbish at spoilers so I won’t name the character. I’m a something of a sucker for a sword and sorcery story though the 2011 ‘Camelot’ didn’t appeal.

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    21. Dame of Mercia: I’m sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, Adriana.

      I haven’t read the D&E short novels but am not averse to seeing a young Character X – I’m rubbish at spoilers so I won’t name the character. I’m a something of a sucker for a sword and sorcery story though the 2011 ‘Camelot’ didn’t appeal.

      Thank-you, Dame.

      Yeah, as am I. We both enjoyed the 2008 Merlin, didn’t we? 🙂

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    22. Dame of Mercia,

      Forgive ME for going off-topic too (well, on-topic to your off-topic “Hit the Road” video). You might enjoy this…

      • Monuments and statues dancing (“Goodbye to D.T.”) from Jimmy Kimmel
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZqu8ojifhU

      • + The chorus of the song in the background of that video is from “Nah Nah Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye” (1969) by Gary DeCarlo & Steam. Link below.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46YFV0fCG30
      You probably recognize the song because the chorus has been adopted as a chant by sports fans in stadiums all over the world to serenade the visiting team when it’s about to lose the game or the match.

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    23. Ten Bears,

      Allow me to sort of get back on topic to the world of TV Targaryens…
      Under the Jimmy Kimmel YouTube video linked above, in the “Up Next” thumbnails, was this:

      “Emilia Clarke Can Talk Like a Valley Girl” (from 2015, Emilia Clarke on Jimmy Kimmel Live).

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIBg-w6TNLE

      At around 2:30, Emilia Clarke starts doing her American “Valley Girl” accent, but her million megawatt smile is on display throughout.

      (A few weeks ago, in the Comments section under a post announcing Olivia Cooke’s casting as Alicent in HotD I believe, we’d been discussing British actors doing convincing American accents and vice versa. I may have mentioned this Emilia Clarke interview.)

      God I miss her. And now I wish she’d been able to play Daenerys as a happy-go-lucky, fun-loving kind of benevolent ruler who’d crack jokes and spread cheer and good will throughout the realm by dropping poppy-laced brownies and pastries from the sky, instead of raining fire from the sky and threatening to liberate the realm by systematically torching each of the kingdoms “from Dorne to Winterfell.”

      Don’t mind me… I am NOT whinging about show! Dany. If anything I’m just chiming in along with others who’ve frequently commented that Emilia Clarke’s comedic timing, effervescent personality and natural charm – not to mention her lovely singing voice* – would make her perfect for roles in romantic comedies and musical comedies.
      * E.g., in the movie “Dom Hemingway,” in which Emilia Clarke played Jude Law’s character’s daughter, a part-time lounge singer; and in the Dolce & Gabanna perfume commercials a couple of years ago in which she sang in Italian.

      Now back to Dunk & Egg and other contemplated prequels…

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    24. MaxHightowerYronwood,

      Thank-you, Max 🙂

      Ten Bears,

      Had Emilia not been a mere 8 years old when Clueless came out, I think she could have been a strong contender for Cher (although Alicia Silverstone’s Cher is the epitome of 90s Valley Girl, EC does a really strong runner up!)

      Anyway, yes, back on topic. Dunk & Egg.

      Would you read the Dunk & Egg novellas, TB? They are a completed novella series 🙂

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    25. Adrianacandle,

      Er, I spoke too soon. Dunk & Egg is not a completed novella series. On his LJ, GRRM said he had plans for more books in 2014, wanting to “chronic[al] [Dunk & Egg’s] entire lives.”

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    26. Dame of Mercia,

      ”… I haven’t read the D&E short novels but am not averse to seeing a young Character X – I’m rubbish at spoilers so I won’t name the character. I’m a something of a sucker for a sword and sorcery story though the 2011 ‘Camelot’ didn’t appeal.”

      I’m with you and Adrianacandle on “Camelot” (2011). I gave it a chance. I really did. I stopped watching after a few episodes. I thought it suffered from miscasting primary roles, e.g., Jamie Campbell Bower was wholly unconvincing (for me) as King Arthur and Joseph Fiennes was an odd choice as Merlin. I know you’re not a fan of Eva Green; I admit she wasn’t very compelling as Morgan in “Camelot.”

      Six Degrees of Game of Thrones:
      I did notice that Liam Cunningham (Davos) was in “Camelot” as Colfur, along with Sean Pertwee as Ector. More recently, Sean Pertwee co-starred as Jimmy in “Two Weeks to Live” (2020) starring Maisie Williams, in which she

      recreated her Arya GoT hand-to-hand dagger flip…with a beer bottle, before crossing his name off her list.
      Inevitably, of course, All Roads Lead to Arya.

      #ARLTA. ™️Tron79.

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    27. Anyone ever seen the animated film “Heavy Metal”? It’s from the early 1980’s.

      The last short story in the film is about a civilization under attack from a bunch of bad dudes, and the only person who can save them is the last “Tarakian” named Taarna.

      It’s so similar to the last Targaryen storyline that I wonder if “Heavy Metal” was a part of GRRM’s inspiration for the Targaryen portion of “A Song of Ice and Fire”.

      Here’s a short clip:

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    28. Ten Bears: I’m with you and Adrianacandle on “Camelot” (2011). I gave it a chance. I really did. I stopped watching after a few episodes. I thought it suffered from miscasting primary roles, e.g., Jamie Campbell Bower was wholly unconvincing (for me) as King Arthur and Joseph Fiennes was an odd choice as Merlin. I know you’re not a fan of Eva Green; I admit she wasn’t very compelling as Morgan in “Camelot.”

      Six Degrees of Game of Thrones:
      I did notice that Liam Cunningham (Davos) was in “Camelot” as Colfur[…]

      If you haven’t seen it already, you may enjoy the 2008 BBC television series “Merlin”, which also features Liam Cunningham in a role. I found it really enjoyable, a good mix of everything 🙂

      Katie McGrath, who we discussed before, is Morgana in this series. Colin Morgan plays Merlin, Bradley James is Arthur, Angel Coulby is Guinevere, while Anthony Stewart Head is King Uther.

      Joseph Fiennes (Fred from Handmaid’s Tale) does sound like an odd choice for Merlin…

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    29. Adrianacandle:
      Adrianacandle,

      Er, I spoke too soon. Dunk & Egg is not a completed novella series. On his LJ, GRRM said he had plans for more books in 2014, wanting to “chronic[al] [Dunk & Egg’s] entire lives.”

      ————-
      Right! I was just going to ask about Sue’s description, i.e.:

      ”There are three novellas in the “Dunk and Egg” series, providing plenty of material to work with: “The Hedge Knight”, “The Sworn Sword”, and “The Mystery Knight”, and GRRM has said several times he plans to write more (yes, we know, we’ll believe it when we see it)…

      So, to answer your question “Would you read the Dunk & Egg novellas, TB? They are a completed novella series.”
      A: Whether completed or not, I’m not sure I’d read the D&E novellas. As it is I’ve got more books on my “To Read” list sitting on my bookshelf than I’ll ever get a chance to read unless I live to 100. However, if D&E makes it from page to screen and that show turns out to be successful, I may change my mind.

      I remain wary of getting invested in a TV show, only to see it canceled abruptly (see, e.g.,

      the hastily cobbled together, dreadful conclusion to “Penny Dreadful” – just as bad or worse than the horrible ending to “Dexter”… WTF? Killing off the long-suffering heroine at the end for no logical reason?

      ), or watch it start out great but then turn to sh*t midway through the second season (e.g., “The Blacklist”) or bring in new writers or showrunners who abandon or butcher what made the show enjoyable to begin with

      (e.g., “Dawson’s Creek” and, I believe, “Dexter”).

      There have also been several shows I was excited to watch because of the pedigree of the creators and cast that have been panned once they aired (e.g., Emily in Paris” starring Lily Collins, from the creator of “Sex and the City,” and “Vinyl,” produced by Martin Scorcese, starring Olivia Wilde, and co-starring Karsi – I mean Birgitte Hjort-Sorrensen – that HBO announced would be renewed for a second season, only to pull the plug on it a few weeks later without explanation a la “Blood Moon.”) I’m glad I didn’t start watching these ultra-hyped shows.

      There are so many already-completed or still-ongoing TV shows I’ve heard are really good, that I have yet to watch, e.g., “Breaking Bad,” “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel,” “Cobra Kai,” “Ozark,” “Stranger Things,” “The Expanse,” “Killing Eve,” “Fleabag,” “Star Trek: Picard,” “The Mandalorian,” “The Wire,” and so on… (I wonder how many hours or weeks I’d have to set aside to binge-watch all of these?)
      Other commenters here have recommended shows, streaming platform movies and UK productions that I’ve tentatively added to my “To Watch” list, e.g., “Rome,” “Enola Holmes,” “His Dark Materials,” “WandaVision,” “Ted Lasso,” “Schitt’s Creek,” “Barry,” “Downtown Abbey,” “The Crown,” “Anne of the Green Gables,” “The Spanish Princess,” “Peaky Blinders,” “Wolf Hall,” and many more. (I’ve already whined ad nauseum about having to pay 💰 to subscribe to a multitude of different services to be able to watch many of these shows.)

      For these reasons it’s difficult for me to justify rolling the dice on books series and their adaptations unless I can be sure I won’t be left hanging or wind up disappointed.

      Does that make sense? Or have I gotten crotchety and cynical? 👿

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    30. Ten Bears: For these reasons it’s difficult for me to justify rolling the dice on books series and their adaptations unless I can be sure I won’t be left hanging or wind up disappointed.

      Does that make sense? Or have I gotten crotchety and cynical? 👿

      Yeah, that’s fair! I was just thinking because they’re on the shorter side, not doorstopper volumes, they might be appealing 🙂 I should have added that both Dunk and Egg have their lives documented in the world books from beginning to end history book style while the novellas flesh out these stories in character POVs. So it’s kind like a HotD scenario but with added details from the character POV provided by the novellas.

      As for the shows you’ve listed on your To-Watch list, the ones I’m familiar with are all good ones. Sadly, I’d agree with critics panning “Emily in Paris” — beautiful visuals, lacking writing :/

      I think you would especially enjoy Enola Holmes! It’s a movie so not a huge commitment. Unfortunately, I think you’d need to invest the time in reading the HDM trilogy before watching the show so that would be a fairly big time investment… 🙁

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    31. Adrianacandle,

      Without “spoiling” anything, are there other prominent characters in the Dunk & Egg novellas that we should expect to see in a TV adaptation? If we’re going to be fancasting, I wouldn’t mind having more than the two eponymous characters to fancast – without having to read the novellas myself. 😏

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    32. Ten Bears: Without “spoiling” anything, are there other prominent characters in the Dunk & Egg novellas that we should expect to see in a TV adaptation? If we’re going to be fancasting, I wouldn’t mind having more than the two eponymous characters to fancast – without having to read the novellas myself. 😏

      The series, by far, primarily follows Dunk & Egg so it’s not so much an ensemble like we’re used to. There are a ton of named characters but as for more secondary/tertiary characters, I can think of Lady Rohanne Webber, Prince Aerion Targaryen, Steffon Fossoway, Prince Maekar, Robyn Rhysling, Humfrey Hardyng, Lyonel Baratheon, Humfrey Beesbury, Raymun Fossoway, Prince Baelor Targaryen, Tanselle, Bennis… and quite a few more.

      But I wouldn’t say any of these characters are especially prominent — they’re more supporting players in either Dunk or Egg’s story. Depending on the novella, much of the supporting cast is switched up.

      Unfortunately, while I believe Aemon is mentioned, he doesn’t actually make an appearance. Although, Aemon does mention Egg and Dunk both in ASOIAF.

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    33. Ten Bears: Is the “Egg” in D&E Aemon’s brother, or a different Aegon entirely?

      Just to add to what others have replied…

      Egg came a generation or two after Aemon (who was really quite old in ASoI&F). After Egg became king (and Dunk became the leader of his Kingsguard…and possibly Brienne’s great grandfather), he imprisoned Egg’s bastard uncle, Brynden Rivers (aka Bloodraven, aka 3-eyed Raven, aka the all-seeing rootman, aka Aemon’s half-brother) for various atrocities committed during the first Blackfyre Rebellion. Aemon was actually due to assume the Targ throne, but instead chose to accompany Bloodraven to Castle Black and join the Nightwatch. Bloodraven eventually became Commander of the Watch but mysteriously disappeared while on a trek into the deep north…only to reappear as the 3ER, protected by the CotF, in ASoI&F. What does Aemon know about Bloodraven that adds to the northern story? Hmm….

      Hope I remembered those facts correctly. Lots of Aegs and eggs to be uncovered in those published and unpublished D&E tales….

        Quote  Reply

    34. Adrianacandle,

      No, I have not seen the 2008 BBC “Merlin” series.
      I’ll add that to my list. 😎

      However, I did see the 1998 “Merlin” two- or three-part TV miniseries. It’s been a while, but I do remember that I enjoyed it, especially Sam Neill’s portrayal of Merlin.
      It had an all-star cast…
      https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0130414/fullcredits
      … including Lena Headey as Guinevere. (I’m pretty sure I was crushing on her back then, long before I started watching GoT.😍 Along with her performance as a love-struck florist in the romance “Imagine Me and You” – and that movie’s use of the classic Turtles song of the same name overheard by Lena Headey’s character in a key scene and in the closing credits – there was no way I could hate Cersei no matter how many nuns she wineboarded and how many fanatics and bystanders she blew up in GoT.)

        Quote  Reply

    35. Ten Bears,

      No, I have not seen the 2008 BBC “Merlin” series.
      I’ll add that to my list. 😎

      This series might be among the more fun series to watch — or at least, that’s what I’ve found! 🙂 Some great dramatic moments but lots of levity, witty writing! It’s one of my favourites to rewatch! And it offers some stand-alone villain-of-the-week episodes that you can watch as one-offs without losing the broader story.

      It also features a ton of GOT alumni in guest roles, including Charles Dance and John Bradley!

      But Lena Headey as Guinevere is something I’d like to see (I also saw her in the first Purge movie and she was pretty great there too).

        Quote  Reply

    36. Hodors Bastard,

      Oops…

      As others pointed out correctly, Aemon was Egg’s older brother. Sorry for the confusion in prev explanation. Bloodraven was both Aemon and Egg’s bastard uncle. The details on how Aemon became partial to Bloodraven are mysterious and intriguing.

        Quote  Reply

    37. Ten Bears,

      LOL…at the tinfoil hat bit…as to the rest yes and yes. You are probably more than right. I was joking…a bit…but it is clear that D&D left an “out” for the show… clearly “to be continued”…

      I mean when Tyrion tells Jon to talk to him in ten years…weeeeelllll….I’ll put on my tinfoil hat as well…

      After all …it took over a decade and a half but HBO made a “Deadwood” movie… sooooo..who knows! Especially the way things are going for Warner Bros, HBO and the whole company… cough HBO Max… cough…

        Quote  Reply

    38. Hodors Bastard,

      • So… wait… Does that mean that in addition to

      Young Aemon*, another “legacy” character from GoT we could conceivably see in a Dunk & Egg TV series would be Bloodraven = 3ER 1.0 = younger version of the really old tree guy we saw in GoT S4e10, and played by Max von Sydow in S6?

      * See my 1/22/21, 2:57 am Comment above.

      Why not have Young Melanie aka Melisandre in the D&E show too? Geezer Mel – without her magic ruby necklace in S6e1, “The Red Woman” – looked much older than Old Maester Aemon, S4e10 Ancient Tree Guy, and S6 Max.
      Surely Young(er) Melisandre could have been lurking around in the D&E timeline, whether she appeared in the novellas or not.

      Besides, this way I can fancast for that character.

      I’d been pining for a larger Red Priestess storyline in GoT anyway – I had wanted to see more of the Red Temple High Priestess Kinvara (Ania Bukstein) and the Volantis street priestess (Rila Fukushima).

      I’m just projecting here: Wouldn’t the yet-to-be-named writers of D&E have the ability, if not the necessity, to expand the number of characters populating the novellas for a full-length, possibly multi-season TV series?

      As I suggested above with my reference and link to aged up Dr. McCoy in the premiere episode of Star Trek: Next Generation, fans of the original series were delighted with the homage paid to the original when kicking off the new series.
      ⚠️ Big Spoilers follow re: other recent shows.⚠️ It’s my understanding that

      The Mandalorian fandom was pleasantly shocked when a digitally aged-down Mark Hamill showed up as Luke Skywalker. Likewise, in Cobra Kai, the popular spin-off of “The Karate Kid,” I read that Elizabeth Shue recently made a surprise reappearance as Allie, Daniel’s love interest from the original film.

      I believe that whether we’re talking about prequels, sequels, or spin-offs, fans do appreciate some continuity from the original show or film, e.g.,

      bringing back or making callbacks to the original’s characters – so long as it’s not cheesy, gimmicky or ridiculous – like Star Wars bringing back Palpatine decades after the fandom saw him vaporized when Darth Vader threw him down that shaft in one of the early Star Wars films.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Ten Bears,

      Young Aemon*, another “legacy” character from GoT we could conceivably see in a Dunk & Egg TV series would be Bloodraven = 3ER 1.0 = younger version of the really old tree guy we saw in GoT S4e10, and played by Max von Sydow in S6?

      Why not have Young Melanie aka Melisandre in the D&E show too? Geezer Mel – without her magic ruby necklace in S6e1, “The Red Woman” – looked much older than Old Maester Aemon, S4e10 Ancient Tree Guy, and S6 Max.
      Surely Young(er) Melisandre could have been lurking around in the D&E timeline, whether she appeared in the novellas or not.

      I think Melisandre is still in Asshai and I’m not sure how a story about Dunk & Egg could open up to include her… Melisandre’s part of the story doesn’t really have a lot to do with Dunk & Egg, I don’t think? It’s possible, Melisandre was alive at that time. My only concern is that I don’t think Dunk & Egg’s story has much to do with magic or red witches.

      However, with Bloodraven, I expect that we will see him! Hodor’s Bastard introduces a ton of interesting stuff with Bloodraven, who is a really interesting character. He enters Dunk and Egg’s story at a quite late point in the third D&E book but briefly. Still, here, I’m not sure if we’d see much Bloodraven’s story itself, or at least early on, as Bloodraven only seems to play a part in Egg’s story at a later point and his story is pretty divided from Dunk and Egg’s before and after these points. Egg (Aegon V) is who sends Bloodraven to the Night’s Watch when Bloodraven had Aenys Blackfyre executed (as Aenys had wanted to present his claim to the throne) in order to quell any future Blackfyre rebellions. Bloodraven later becomes Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch during Egg’s reign (239AC to 252AC). He disappears seven years before Egg’s own reign ends. I think this is when he becomes the “three eyed crow”.

      As for Aemon, I think it’s very possible we see a few appearances by Aemon earlier than these points depending on if the story starts in their childhood (before Aemon turns 10, that’s when he’s sent to the Citadel by King Daeron to reduce the amount of Targaryen heirs as there were quite a few at the time). While growing up — until Aegon turns 10, that is — I believe Aemon and Egg were close. It’s Aemon who nicknamed Egg. In the novellas themselves, Aemon barely features and only gets a mention or two. Still, maybe we’ll get a few shots of him at the Citadel and when he’s studying?

        Quote  Reply

    40. How blasphemous is it to say I found the Tales of Dunk to be a complete snoozefest, and can’t see how it’d translate to a watchable TV show? 🙊 Robert’s rebellion should be great, but limited plot for more than one season, or a miniseries possibly.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Ten Bears,

      I think you said you weren’t a big TV watcher didn’t you?
      I always did watch a bunch of TV growing up and with staying at home so much now, I crave for absolutely anything that is even barely interesting to watch! I binged a somewhat awful Harry Potterish teen drama called FATE Winx saga. The best I can say is that it could have been worse! but the fact that I watched all 6 episodes today speaks to the lack of quality TV left for me to view…

      I agree with Adrianacandle that Enola Holmes was quite enjoyable. Warrior Nun was so off the wall that you may have to watch it just so you can see another Warrior Ninja Assassin besides you know who, but it’s on Netflix so that won’t work for you..ugg. It was pretty awful though, but I was a little entertained.

      I would think HBO needs original content to compete, so I’m not surprised they would pickup more than one series. It makes me upset though that they gave up on the “Blood Moon” project. I think I’m most interested in delving into that time period. I also am fascinated with what happened in old Valeria. I can still see the ruins from the show in my brain as Tyrion and Jorah row by…

      If you want to check out my IMDB reviews, here’s a link to some of the ones I’ve watched recently. No one reads these reviews so I’m not sure why I bother writing them, but you might find some useful info..
      https://www.imdb.com/user/ur64530276/reviews

      My favorite recently has been “The Expanse” on Amazon Prime, but I think you said you don’t have Amazon Prime? If you have an amazon prime account, you can get it for free. I mentioned in another post there is a GOT connection with the writer. I never read the books and I’m enjoying the series immensely as a show only watcher. I can’t wait until Tuesday at midnight to see the next one. This is a completed book series I believe…

      I’m also surprised they haven’t approached Maisie for a spinoff series. It’s such a natural with her ending to follow her journeys. So many huge TV shows have multiple spinoffs where characters from the show get their own show. I wouldn’t be surprised if HBO needs the content at some point.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Tron79,

      Tron! Off-topic, HDM stuff:

      So Kevin emailed me today as he had just finished the first HDM book — and he has quite a few interesting theories, one of those being what daemons are. I’m unsure what to share though but I feel compelled to reveal daemons are a manifestation of the soul. Those characters without daemons can get a daemon (Will) in the form of their soul.

      What do you think? Or should I leave him to kind of figure this out when he completes the trilogy? 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    43. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      Tron! Off-topic, HDM stuff:

      humm.. good question…

      It sounds like he’s trying to get a handle on them and if he’s reading the whole trilogy he may get a better idea once he reads about Will in book 2. Does he not think they are the soul? I guess you could think of them as more of your conscience too. Or in Mrs. Coulter’s case she does her best to hide her humanity and keep at bay some of those human emotions that come out in her daemon, such as fear. You could tell him what you think but he may still debate you 🙂 anyway. It should become clear in the third book when Will returns with his own daemon that he had one all along…

        Quote  Reply

    44. Tron79,

      It sounds like he’s trying to get a handle on them and if he’s reading the whole trilogy he may get a better idea once he reads about Will in book 2. Does he not think they are the soul? I guess you could think of them as more of your conscience too. Or in Mrs. Coulter’s case she does her best to hide her humanity and keep at bay some of those human emotions that come out in her daemon, such as fear. You could tell him what you think but he may still debate you 🙂 anyway. It should become clear in the third book when Will returns with his own daemon that he had one all along…

      Yeah, I think book 3 would make that more clear.

      As for daemons, I just had a thought: Pan and Hester especially kind of act as impulse inhibitors, don’t they? XD “Lyra, this is rash, cut it out”/”Lee…”

      Whereas the Golden Monkey seems to encourage Mrs Coulter’s more sadistic impulses and her ambition while disapproving of her protection and affection for Lyra because it conflicts with all of Mrs Coulter’s other goals…

      But no, Kevin doesn’t think they are manifestations of the soul. He came up with something I’ve never heard before but because he hasn’t read book 2 and 3, I think I may leave it until afterward when we both have about the same amount of info on this story and these characters. I’m also interested in seeing what he comes up with all on his own.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Tron79,

      I emailed you proposing an email thread between us so Kevin can share his own HDM views with you as well since he’s not around WotW himself these days. But I think you guys would find each others’ views intriguing 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    46. Apollo:
      How blasphemous is it to say I foundthe Tales of Dunk to be a complete snoozefest, and can’t see how it’d translate to a watchable TV show? 🙊 Robert’s rebellion should be great, but limited plot for more than one season, or a miniseries possibly.

      (1) That’s good to know. But maybe a really talented screenwriter-to-be-named-later can turn the Dunk snoozefest into a compelling teleplay.

      (2) The main reservation I have about a Robert’s Rebellion prequel is that much of the target audience already knows what happened from the backstory exposition on GoT, even without reading the ASOIAF books.

      Moreover, if a RR prequel is consistent with GoT show canon, I wonder if prospective viewers’ enthusiasm will be dampened by a perception that Jon Snow’s story ended with a whimper rather than a bang:

      The secret Targ Prince that was (supposedly) Promised yelled at an undead dragon, while his little sister saved the world and brought the dawn; “Aegon” the magical baby grew up to shag and shank his aunt, and then disappear into obscurity. The Helen of Troy/Romeo & Juliet mystique of the Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon kind of fizzled out for many casual show watchers.
      I’m not saying that subverting expectations and defying conventions were not necessarily a bad idea It’s just that for some fans, the emotional stakes of Robert’s Rebellion have been arguably devalued by the ending they see on the TV.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Adrianacandle,

      How come Kevin’s not around here much anymore?

      I don’t mind when you all get into your HDM discussions. I was even thinking of suggesting that underused Comments Sections under fairly recent but rarely visited articles might be a good place for some of our occasional detours and tangents. That’s why I posted some Holiday Musical Interludes last month under the Miltos/Syrio virtual waterdancing lesson announcement. Only a handful comments had been posted under it.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Ten Bears: (1) That’s good to know. But maybe a really talented screenwriter-to-be-named-later can turn the Dunk snoozefest into a compelling teleplay.

      I’d disagree Apollo’s characterization “snoozefest” for this series but YMMV 🙂 From what I’ve seen, Dunk & Egg seems well-liked and I’m curious to see the development of Dunk and Egg’s relationship on-screen. I think it can provide some nice context for the backstories of

      Maester Aemon and touch on Bloodraven

      as well as develop new characters to root for and invest in.

      As for RR, I can’t speak for all show viewers or book readers but from what I’ve seen, I think there is still interest into how things happened verses how the history is told in-universe. We still don’t really have any idea of how Elia received this, what she did, what Dorne did, etc. Without wanting to spark a Rhaegar bashing session again, I think there’s still quite a bit of mystery involved there since Robert’s Rebellion set up so much of the situation we find characters in when ASOIAF/GOT starts. Not just with Rhaegar and Lyanna but with Jon Arryn/Ned/Brandon/Benjen/Rickard/Aerys/Robert/etc.

      How come Kevin’s not around here much anymore?

      I can’t speak for him but from my conversations with him, I think he just got worn out by the season 8 arguments (sentiments which I know I’ve shared as well). He said he’d come back when TWoW is out or there was new stuff to discuss. Perhaps when HoTD gets up and rolling….

      That’s a good suggestion! I was also thinking putting unrelated content and tagging it as HDM or something would help keep threads neat and tidy for those uninterested, allowing them to scroll by without issue.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Dame of Mercia: The group was Bananarama.Don’t know what happened there that I didn’t name them.

      Didn’t Bananarama, in 1986, also do a middling cover of “Venus,” a hit for Dutch band Shocking Blue in 1969?

      (🎶”Goddess on a mountain top
      Was burning like a silver flame
      The summit of beauty and love
      And Venus was her name…”🎶)

        Quote  Reply

    50. Adrianacandle,

      ”He [Kevin] said he’d come back when TWoW is out or there was new stuff to discuss.”

      Well, could you pass along my plea that he get a move on and finish writing TWOW already!
      (Just kidding of course. Please send my best regards if you’re in touch with him.)

        Quote  Reply

    51. Ten Bears: Well, could you pass along my plea that he get a move on and finish writing TWOW already!
      (Just kidding of course. Please send my best regards if you’re in touch with him.)

      I’ll screencap this and forward it to him! Thanks, TB!

      (But I would enjoy reading how Kevin would envision TWOW… and we’d probably get it before the 2030s)

        Quote  Reply

    52. Here is a short-lived but fun show to add to your lists. “ROAR” Despite the perhaps generic opening “Roar” was actually a good show for the late 90’s. The setting, characters and music were pretty solid. Of course it didn’t have the budget oF GOT…but a very young (in first significant role on American TV) and an equally young Vera Fermiga, as well as the rest of the cast, were excellent. Plus the setting was just beautiful.

      There was some magic and mysticism as part of the plot with the characters of Longinus (the Roman centurion who stabbed Jesus with the spear on the cross) and the Spear Of Destiny (said spear) thrown in there.

      The show never made it past one season, and Fox as it was typical at the time, cancelled the series…very prematurely…

        Quote  Reply

    53. loco73,

      “Roar” was actually a good show for the late 90’s.

      Hey! Take that back, says Adrianacandle #1 Buffy Fan a.k.a. bitemenice87 a.k.a. “Oh god, here she goes with the Buffy talk again,” circa 2002-2006, a.k.a. “I won’t pay for you to take Buffy Studies, Natasha,” a.k.a. “You’re just going through another phase, like Harry Potter and that cartoon moon girl you loved so much” 😉

      (To the last one: never).

      I kid, I kid, I get your meaning 🙂

      But thanks for the recommendation! I’m getting some 2008 Merlin vibes? I’ve been in a very Merlin mood lately. In a way, I think this suits Dunk & Egg — a story of two characters (Dunk and Egg) while Merlin is essentially a story about Merlin and Arthur 🙂

      The show never made it past one season, and Fox as it was typical at the time, cancelled the series…very prematurely…

      Yeah, that sounds on-brand for Fox (RIP Firefly and Wonderfalls).

        Quote  Reply

    54. Dame of Mercia: The group was Bananarama.Don’t know what happened there that I didn’t name them.

      a while after they became pop stars, i noticed they supported one of my back then favorites in their early days.

      this is without them, if i remember correct. still, i post this because the song title is as nov 16 to jan 6, 21 as can…
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aItpjF5vXc

      and yeah, the dancing statues are great. i actually expected every comedian to explode after the removal of D***** T**** from where he should never have been. and i haven’t been disappointed so far (although, right now i definitely miss Jim Jeffries).
      an absolute highlight was Jonathan Pie. i love his regular output, but here he goes full berzerk with Valyrian STIHL in both hands.
      no music, just 12 minutes of massacre… IS IT GREAT AGAIN YET? i wish this one was Molly-Bloom-sized!

        Quote  Reply

    55. Adrianacandle: as Bloodraven only seems to play a part in Egg’s story at a later point and his story is pretty divided from Dunk and Egg’s before and after these points.

      For some reason, the desperate post-dragon rule of the Targs is quite fascinating to me, and especially how D&E sort of wander through the calamities of the period.

      There’s the dubious and violent Targ/Baratheon/Blackfyre alliances, Bloodraven’s dark influence, the mysteries behind the other Great Bastards, the Blackfyre Rebellions, missing dragon eggs, Aemon’s decision and withdrawal, Winterfell and Castle Black visits, and of course the tragic Summerhall events.

      I can’t ignore the symmetry between the travels of Arya & the Hound and D&E either. 🙂 Unfortunately (to me), it looks like HBO will once again get to complete/customize GRRM’s grand vision. (sigh) On the positive side, I’m looking forward to how they depict D&E’s PoVs, their absolute dichotomy in appearance, demeanor and outlook, the Targ dysfunctions, the lingering beauty of Westeros, the mysteries of

      Tanselle (!)

      and others they meet during their travels, etc…

      Although I’ll always be partial to the written word, such amazing fantasy tales seem to be meandering down the video pike…including Wheel of Time (oh, the character/cultural arguments ahead!), LoTR’s 2nd age, D&E, HotD, and Kingkiller (maybe). The First Law, pretty please. In any case, my ultimate fantasy wish is a modern treatment of Thomas Covenant…but how will they handle

      that initial rape

      in this fickle day and age?

        Quote  Reply

    56. Hodors Bastard

      NOTE: i tried to hide spoilers, but sth is wrong with my brain, HTML or the world. please, could you admins fix this for me? thank you so much!!

      right? the Arya / Sandor parallel jumped at me pretty soon when i read the book past spring. with the difference ofthis Arya has a life saver in the boot… and this Sandor is a complete noob to the job of surviving and killing. oh, and giving too much shit about knights at all, opposite to the original Sandor.

      also you mention Tanselle again. good. it connects perfectly with an assumption made in one of the very early comments on this thread: Dunc being an ancestor or so to Brienne.
      Tanselle was described as a pretty strong persona. also, she was quite tall. if any of her background has been mentioned in the book – i forgot it. but she and Dunc have tthe potential to be a mirror to the Jamie&Brienne story (or vice versa).

      Tanselle painted Dunc’s shield before his first joust. Brienne wrote the final chapter about Jamie in the kingsguard directories. She ended up being a member of the king’s guard after Jamie’s death. Dunc ended up being a member of the king’s guard after – i can’t even!

        Quote  Reply

    57. Adrianacandle,

      ”From what I’ve seen, Dunk & Egg seems well-liked and I’m curious to see the development of Dunk and Egg’s relationship on-screen. I think it can provide some nice context for the backstories of

      Maester Aemon and touch on Bloodraven

      as well as develop new characters to root for and invest in.”

      I have not read any of the Dunk & Egg novellas so I couldn’t begin to opine whether they’re a “snoozefest” or a jolt of adrenaline. However, I suspect I’d enjoy them: The only full chapter of GRRM’s work I’ve read is the “Mercy” TWOW sample chapter. I thought it was thoroughly delightful, especially the way the “voice” of the narrator’s internal monologue and spoken dialogue

      alternated between the whimsical Mercy persona and the ASNAWP Terminator-type one-liners in the next to last scene with that Raff jerk.

      So I have no reason to doubt that I’d be entertained by D&E tales, especially if as another commenter recently observed, D&E’s

      travels are reminiscent of those of Sandor and Arya.

      Like I’ve alluded to earlier, if there’s not enough “meat” in the three D&E novellas to fill out a multi-season TV adaptation, then the show’s writers would have the creative flexibility if not the necessity, to amplify secondary characters’ storylines – or perhaps to create entirely new characters.

      Expanding storylines for recognizable GoT characters, e.g., aged-down versions of Aemon and Bloodraven (Brynden Rivers?)/3ER 1.0, would appeal to GoT fans.

      Again, I think most fans would appreciate the homages to and continuity from the original series.

      As for “develop[ing] new characters to root for and invest in”: I think that’s where the skills and imagination of the writers are important. Inserting show-only creations can be tricky – or pay off big time if done well.
      I was going to cite a few examples of book-to-screen adaptations that featured a seamlessly inserted new character without screwing up the source material. Maybe I’ll do that later after trying to analyze why those instances were effective.

      On the flip side, GRRM himself once recounted an illustrative (and humorous) example of an extraneous character inserted for frivolous reasons. I’ll have to look for G’s interview or blog post, but it went something like this:

      GRRM was adapting a short story by an author he really admired for a Twilight Zone episode. As I vaguely recall, the short story was about an encounter between a hero knight and a mystery knight in a fictional/fantasy medieval world setting.
      Anyway, after GRRM turned in his script, the producers of The Twilight Zone insisted that he revise it so that an everyday Joe Schmo from the real world accompanied the hero knight. GRRM tried to explain that the story had nothing to do with a bystander or observer from the present day real world. The producers insisted that The Twilight Zone formula always included an everyday Joe Schmo transported into a fantasy world or nightmarish setting.
      Poor, frustrated George said he was throughly embarrassed when he had to tell the author that he [GRRM] was being forced to butcher the author’s story.
      Apparently, the Twilight Zone episode as aired evoked the expected “WTF?” reaction to Joe Schmo standing around with no purpose for being there.
      [Okay, it was funnier the way GRRM described it…]

      ”As for RR, I can’t speak for all show viewers or book readers but from what I’ve seen, I think there is still interest into how things happened verses how the history is told in-universe. We still don’t really have any idea of how Elia received this, what she did, what Dorne did, etc. Without wanting to spark a Rhaegar bashing session again, I think there’s still quite a bit of mystery involved there since Robert’s Rebellion set up so much of the situation we find characters in when ASOIAF/GOT starts. Not just with Rhaegar and Lyanna but with Jon Arryn/Ned/Brandon/Benjen/Rickard/Aerys/Robert/etc.

      I had some thoughts about this. I’ll have to summarize them in a continuation….

        Quote  Reply

    58. Ten Bears,

      For the sake of accuracy, here’s a verbatim excerpt from the GRRM interview I was referring to, describing his adaptation of an author’s short story for a Twilight Zone episode. (The entire April 2011 interview is an interesting read, particularly now ten years later, so I’ve included the link to it below.)

      GRRM Interview Part 3: The Twilight Zone and Lost | TIME.com April 19, 2011

      https://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/19/grrm-interview-part-3-the-twilight-zone-and-lost/

      ***
      Q: Did working in TV give you insight into those compromises?

      GRRM: The very first script of mine that was ever made was an episode of Twilight Zone called, “Last Defender of Camelot,” which was based on a classic short-story by Roger Zelazny. Roger, who lived here in Sante Fe, was a very dear and close friend of mine until his death in 1995. I remember going into it, I said, “Hollywood, they always ruin everything when they adapt it, they always change things. They shouldn’t change anything… I’m just going to do an absolutely faithful adaptation of Roger’s story.”

      And then we’re getting into the process, of course, and what I’m discovering is that it is impossible to do that. The climax of Rogers’s story was a fight between Lancelot, who’s the hero of the story, and an enchanted suit of armor called the Hollow Knight. There is no one inside it, but it’s been evilly enchanted to fight. And the fight takes place in like an otherworldly version of Stonehenge. So that’s how I wrote it, exactly what Roger wrote it in when I first tried for the screenplay.

      Then the Line Producer calls me in and says, you can have Stonehenge or you can have horses, but you cannot have horses and Stonehenge, because there is no Stonehenge around here and we’re going to have to build that out of papier-mâché on the sound stage. And if we bring horses there, when they start galloping around, the rocks will shake and fall down. So we can take your horses and we can go out into the woods, we have these nice woods there would be trees and stuff around here. We can’t put fake Stonehenge rocks there, because they’ll blow down in the wind.

      So I called up Roger and he was remarkably good-humored about that. I said, Well, do you want horses or Stonehenge? And he said, “Well, I want Stonehenge.” So we got rid of the horses and we filmed it on the sound stage with two knights fighting on foot. And it worked fine.

      And you know, and then I had my first taste of the kind of changes that you don’t want to make… In network television,  and certainly in the ‘80’s, network television likes to put everybody in a little bag; they like to know, This is what the show is about.

      Twilight Zone was always a nightmare for them because it was an anthology. We did serious dramatic shows, we did science fiction, we did fantasy, we did the psychological stories, we did comedies. What the network had decided what the Twilight Zone was about was, an ordinary person who blunders into extraordinary circumstances. You know, entering the twilight zone. Ordinary Joe comes up and encounters something weird; now, he’s in the twilight zone. And he has to deal with Martians or whatever it is.

      We’re actually casting my show. We’re about to go into production and suddenly a network executive says, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. There’s no ordinary person in this.”
      The characters are Merlin, Morgan LeFay and Lancelot. This isn’t The Twilight Zone, you can’t do this!

      So they forced us to add an ordinary person. I had to add a character named Tom, who Lancelot picks up and sort of carries along, who fulfills no particular function than being in the story. But he’s just there. Explaining that to Roger was the worst part.
      ****

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    59. Hodors Bastard,

      Those are some wonderful points!

      For some reason, the desperate post-dragon rule of the Targs is quite fascinating to me, and especially how D&E sort of wander through the calamities of the period.

      Oddly enough, this never occurred to me — D&E would be wandering through this period where there seemed to be Blackfyre rebellion after Blackfyre rebellion. The parallel you draw to Arya and Sandor make this especially apt since they wandered Westeros while the War of the Five Kings was occurring.

      Also, nice points about Bloodraven, the Great Bastards, Aemon’s choices, etc. And yes, Bloodraven’s influence would be colouring the atmosphere since he played such a role in these wars (anti-Blackfyre, pro-Targaryen). And I believe he likely did become the three-eyed-crow before Egg’s reign ended.

      On the positive side, I’m looking forward to how they depict D&E’s PoVs, their absolute dichotomy in appearance, demeanor and outlook, the Targ dysfunctions, the lingering beauty of Westeros, the mysteries of

      Yeah, I feel D&E and the time period they happen with have a ton of story to work with. I think the major challenge will adapting it in a way that’s trackable, coherent, and meaningful to the audience. However, if they make investable characters — like Dunk and Egg — I think that will be the first step in making their experiences (and the context of their experiences) meaningful to the audience 🙂

      Also, great point about Tanselle and observation re: Sandor and Arya!

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    60. Ten Bears,

      First, thanks for that interview, TB!!

      I have not read any of the Dunk & Egg novellas so I couldn’t begin to opine whether they’re a “snoozefest” or a jolt of adrenaline. However, I suspect I’d enjoy them: The only full chapter of GRRM’s work I’ve read is the “Mercy” TWOW sample chapter. I thought it was thoroughly delightful, especially the way the “voice” of the narrator’s internal monologue and spoken dialogue alternated between the whimsical Mercy persona and the ASNAWP Terminator-type one-liners in the next to last scene with that Raff jerk.
      So I have no reason to doubt that I’d be entertained by D&E tales, especially if as another commenter recently observed, D&E’s

      I think you’d like Dunk & Egg, TB! 🙂 I agree about how well-written the Mercy chapter is.

      Like I’ve alluded to earlier, if there’s not enough “meat” in the three D&E novellas to fill out a multi-season TV adaptation, then the show’s writers would have the creative flexibility if not the necessity, to amplify secondary characters’ storylines – or perhaps to create entirely new characters.

      I think there’s more than enough meat to work with for D&E, as Hodor’s Bastard spoke about. D&E happen in a pretty interesting period of Westerosi history. However, because it’s so focused on D&E with an ever-changing cast of supporting characters, perhaps they need to bump up the roles of some of those supporting characters and carry them through more of the story so there’s more to invest in.

      When it’s an ever-changing cast of characters (kind of like what Heroes tried to do), I found it hard to invest in the many new characters the show introduced (and that was Tim Kring toning it down). GRRM does seem to have new-character-creation-syndrome though, considering how he added like 20 new POVs in AFFC and ADWD…

      Expanding storylines for recognizable GoT characters, e.g., aged-down versions of Aemon and Bloodraven (Brynden Rivers?)/3ER 1.0, would appeal to GoT fans.
      Again, I think most fans would appreciate the homages to and continuity from the original series.

      I think it depends on the type of GoT fan. A casual show-watcher is not terribly likely to remember Aemon or who the first Three-Eyed-Raven was so I’m not sure how much meaning these characters would have to somebody who casually watched GoT. A more devoted viewer, like us, would find meaning in seeing these characters in younger form again. What would a 19 year old, brand new maester Aemon look like? Getting to see Bloodraven long before he became the Three-Eyed Crow 🙂

      But to people like my mum, she’d be like, “Who?”

      So I think it’s the story and characters that most matter in this series and they need to stand alone on their own merit.

      As for “develop[ing] new characters to root for and invest in”: I think that’s where the skills and imagination of the writers are important. Inserting show-only creations can be tricky – or pay off big time if done well.

      By new characters, I was more referring to Dunk and Egg since we haven’t met TV Dunk and Egg 🙂 I should have clarified better, I’m sorry! But you raise some good points and I’d be interested in your examples!

      On the flip side, GRRM himself once recounted an illustrative (and humorous) example of an extraneous character inserted for frivolous reasons. I’ll have to look for G’s interview or blog post, but it went something like this:
      […]
      [Okay, it was funnier the way GRRM described it…]

      That was a great interview you provided! Thanks for that! It kind of gave a bit of insight into how GRRM feels about the writing/adaption process and why. I’m going to re-read it.

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    61. Adrianacandle,

      BTW, that April 2011 GRRM interview was Part 3 of what I believe was a 3- or 4-part interview in early 2011. The other parts are illuminating too.
      Also, I think it was in one of these interviews that GRRM

      bashed “Lost” in scatological terms for failing to stick the landing. I wonder how he feels about GoT’s ending – not that he’s in any position to whinge about it…

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    62. Adrianacandle,

      Okay, I was going to try to illustrate the point that casual fans could be prompted to make the connection between a GoT character and his younger version, by general similarity in appearance, clothing, voice inflection and accent, and the use of callbacks

      (“Egg, I dreamed I…”)

      , recognizable dialogue and catchphrases, and even familiar locations.

      (I’ll leave for another time whether we thought GoT succeeded or not with its depictions of Young Ned, Young Cersei, Young Hodor, etc.; and whether a few lines of dialogue were sufficient to bring to mind a departed character from the show’s first season without actually naming her or him, e.g., Melisandre in S8e3 to Arya: “What do we say to the God of Death?”)

      For (a cheap) hypothetical example of a D&E callback, showing Dunk and Egg bundled up in the cold weather, ambling up to a castle and greeted by someone saying “Winter is Coming” – would suggest that they’re about to meet a Stark in WF.

      I was hunting around for a clip or image to accompany this hypothetical, and accidentally came upon these…

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EsOgadmXcAgVCg0?format=jpg&name=medium
      [Caption: “Winter is Coming”]

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EsO2smvXEAYcsFq?format=jpg&name=medium
      [Caption: “The King in the North”]

      * I’m sure you know that’s Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. I have no idea why the internet meme makers have gone overboard with inserting this image just about everywhere.

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    63. heh, it’s not just “TV only fans” who won’t be familiar: only a small proportion of the book readers will be aware of this series. I am pretty sure that I read one of them ages ago: but I know that I’ve never even seen copies of at least two of the novellas or the “Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” compilation.

      I take it from this that Martin didn’t release Winds of Winter last year. Two years after the TV series & with the absolute maelstrom of feces that 2020 was, I could easily see missing the book coming out, but it is even easier to miss if it didn’t happen! When do we get our annual apology? 😀

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    64. Ten Bears: I have no idea why the internet meme makers have gone overboard with inserting this image just about everywhere.

      People have interpreted it as “old guy who really wishes that he were somewhere else” and who cannot relate to that? That stated, I don’t think that Bernie didn’t want to be there: that seems to be a belief from his hardcore fans who are so far to the extremes that they genuinely see no difference between Biden & Trump. In a way, they are a lot like “purist” book fans dealing with movie or TV adaptations!

        Quote  Reply

    65. Ten Bears,

      Okay, I was going to try to illustrate the point that casual fans could be prompted to make the connection between a GoT character and his younger version, by general similarity in appearance, clothing, voice inflection and accent, and the use of callbacks[…]

      Perhaps. However, in my experience, based on the casual fans I know, I am dubious they would recognize these lines :/ I guess it’s hard to tell. There’s a spectrum of casual fans — some who have excellent memories, could keep track of the loads of loads of characters. My own experience has been that casual fans don’t really hold on to these details.

      I was on a zoom call with a friend, who was a casual viewer, and unfortunately, she wasn’t able to place Aemon or Bloodraven or these lines. Now, she’s by no means the standard! But I think this is a consideration.

      For (a cheap) hypothetical example of a D&E callback, showing Dunk and Egg bundled up in the cold weather, ambling up to a castle and greeted by someone saying “Winter is Coming” – would suggest that they’re about to meet a Stark in WF.

      That’d be really cool! 😀 I think “Winter is Coming” would be among the more likely recognizable things from GoT, something even my mum and aunt could pick up on.

      and whether a few lines of dialogue were sufficient to bring to mind a departed character from the show’s first season without actually naming her or him, e.g., Melisandre in S8e3 to Arya: “What do we say to the God of Death?”

      I think to devoted fans, this would be recognizable. I have doubts about more casual fans though, who perhaps have already forgotten. Just my speculations though!

      I’m sure you know that’s Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. I have no idea why the internet meme makers have gone overboard with inserting this image just about everywhere.

      I’m REALLY loving the Bernie memes! XD I think it’s the mittens! I did come across this yesterday:

        Quote  Reply

    66. Ten Bears: BTW, that April 2011 GRRM interview was Part 3 of what I believe was a 3- or 4-part interview in early 2011. The other parts are illuminating too.

      Time does some great interviews, I’m going to look at these! Thanks again for this!

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    67. Tron79,

      ”If you want to check out my IMDB reviews…”

      I definitely will!

      ”I’m also surprised they haven’t approached Maisie for a spinoff series. It’s such a natural with her ending to follow her journeys. So many huge TV shows have multiple spinoffs where characters from the show get their own show. I wouldn’t be surprised if HBO needs the content at some point.”

      From her interviews right after GoT, Maisie Williams said she was looking forward to some down time from hectic filming schedules. Deservedly so: She’d been at it virtually non-stop since she was 12.
      With the exception of “Two Weeks to Live” and “The Owners,” both of which were filmed a while ago, I don’t think she’s got any upcoming projects that have been announced. She has apparently been enjoying her sabbatical. Smart move.
      Still, after the close to a year-long shutdown of production on most films and TV shows, and the possibility of a return to normal later this year (if governments can get their act together on vaccinations), I imagine she might be receptive to a commitment to a series. Far be it for me to weigh in on her life choices though.

      Nevertheless, an Arya spin-off would be “a natural.” She was a popular, recognizable character on GoT, and comes with a built-in audience. Like Star Trek TNG and Captain Picard, the GoT fandom would surely be curious about the continuing voyages of Arya and the Stark ship Nymeria.

      From a business standpoint, with HBO anxious to milk its cash cow and looking for a new flagship show, it’s surely in a position to back up a Brinks truck full of cash to Maisie Williams’s driveway to induce her to reprise her role.

      After all: 🎶Money changes everything.🎶

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp4suZ4jNXg
      💵💵💵
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaT-8LuXDjg
      💰💰💰

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    68. Wimsey,

      Wimsey, where hast thou been? Mind thy own confounded business do I hear thee say?

      I hope HBO don’t over egg the pudding as it were. Could folk find too many Planetos based stories tiresome after a while – like the too sweets make you sick principle. By the time Robert’s Rebellion makes it to the screen my original fan casts will be too old – though they might suit as a mum or dad, auntie or uncle, somewhere in the story.

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    69. Dame of Mercia,

      ”…By the time Robert’s Rebellion makes it to the screen my original fan casts will be too old – though they might suit as a mum or dad, auntie or uncle, somewhere in the story.”

      Oh no! Don’t say that. I look forward to your fancasts, especially those of British actors I’ve never seen. (And links to images or film clips, if available, are most appreciated.)

      I’ve often pictured actors from “the Golden Age of Hollywood” who would’ve been perfect for GoT characters.
      In the past I’ve also commended GoT for casting accomplished, mature actors (like Diana Rigg, Charles Dance, Roy Dotrice, and Peter Vaughn)
      instead of “aging up” young actors with digital technology, or prosthetics and makeup; and for employing these accomplished actors in meaty roles, as opposed to stunt-casting them (“Hey! Isn’t that old guy Joe Blow from the 1960’s?”) or casting them as tertiary, background characters with minimal screen time and little if any dialogue, e.g., a main character’s grandma, housekeeper or governess.

      Just as with “Blood Moon” before it was euthanized, I am hoping House of the Dragon will continue to reach into the broad talent pool of mature actors. There are so many talented, experienced performers still active on stage and in independent films, or otherwise available, who aren’t cast in big budget movies or TV series because of ageism – or the troubling
      trend of chasing after the shiny flavor of the month, even if it requires aging up a twenty-something actor’s appearance or shoehorning him into the role of a middle-aged man.

      Sorry, Leonardo DeCaprio fans. I just could not buy him as Howard Hughes in “The Aviator” (2004) opposite the phenomenal Cate Blanchett as Katherine Hepburn.

      …. (to be cont. in a few minutes)…

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    70. Dame of Mercia:
      Wimsey,

      Wimsey, where hast thou been?Mind thy own confounded business do I hear thee say?

      I hope HBO don’t over egg the pudding as it were.Could folk find too many Planetos based stories tiresome after a while – like the too sweets make you sick principle.By the time Robert’s Rebellion makes it to the screen my original fan casts will be too old – though they might suit as a mum or dad, auntie or uncle, somewhere in the story.

      I’m not sure why a show based on Robert’s Rebellion doesn’t thrill me. Perhaps because we now know it was based on an untruth.

      The lore of the children and the “others” really intrigue me. Old Valyria also sounds amazing. Unfortunately, they don’t seem interested in that story.

      Also, as I mentioned to Ten Bears, a spinoff with Arya’s adventures would make alot of sense. I wouldn’t be surprised if they approached Maisie at some point to see if she’s had enough time off. As he said in another post, Maisie needed some time off of her contract so she could try new things. I’m not sure how well her Daisie APP venture is doing. I haven’t heard much about it.

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    71. Tron79: The lore of the children and the “others” really intrigue me. Old Valyria also sounds amazing. Unfortunately, they don’t seem interested in that story.

      I, for one, would be very interested in these stories and while they are still part of the GoT-verse, I think they also may present some of the most potential to be a standalone series that could appeal on its own merit. I feel kind of similarly about D&E too — that even without the GoT connection, it could work.

      I do have reservations about sequels but they have worked before (ie. Frasier from Cheers. He was meant as a small role at first but became a regular and eventually went on to have an 11-year run in a spin-off series centred on the character. Angel was a successful spin-off of Buffy and became its own distinct show) but… it’d have to be done well and not primarily reliant on recognition of the titular character. I think Angel and Frasier are two good examples of spin-off series that worked because they worked without an audience needing to be familiar with the parent show or character beforehand. Just my two cents though! 🙂

      I think a challenge with an Others story would be whether or not they’d have to go with the established GoT backstory/canon/characterization or ASOIAF’s.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Adrianacandle: I, for one, would be very interested in these stories and while they are still part of the GoT-verse, I think they also may present some of the most potential to be a standalone series that could appeal on its own merit. I feel kind of similarly about D&E too — that even without the GoT connection, it could work.

      I do have reservations about sequels but they have worked before (ie. Frasier from Cheers. He was meant as a small role at first but became a regular and eventually went on to have an 11-year run in a spin-off series centred on the character. Angel was a successful spin-off of Buffy and became its own distinct show) but… it’d have to be done well and not primarily reliant on recognition of the titular character. I think Angel and Frasier are two good examples of spin-off series that worked because they worked without an audience needing to be familiar with the parent show or character beforehand. Just my two cents though! 🙂

      I think a challenge with an Others story would be whether or not they’d have to go with the established GoT backstory/canon/characterization or ASOIAF’s.

      I get the feeling that HBO shies away from stories without source material now. Perhaps it’s too open ended for them to take a chance, or they don’t want to get backlash like what happened with D&D when they ran out of source material.

      I haven’t read GRRM’s other books. Do any of them go into the backstory of the children? or the Others? I have seen fandom rebel when shows go against canon, such as with Star Trek.

      Regarding spinoffs, usually you see it with popular sitcoms as you listed them. I guess it’s not done as much with dramas.

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    73. TB, I don’t know why the people behind the show went for English (mostly) accents in ye olde Westeros though it was nice for English and Irish actors to be be given a chance to strut their stuff – Jack Gleeson and Michael McElhatton could pull off authentic sounding English accents and there were others who could. Some people had fan cast Alexander Siddig as Doran and Gwendolen Christie as Brienne so once in a while a fan cast comes true though when he signed up I think Alexander Siddig thought he was going to be playing a more faithful adaptation of his book character.

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    74. Tron79: I haven’t read GRRM’s other books. Do any of them go into the backstory of the children? or the Others?

      No, not that I can recall. Both get mentions in the world books but that’s really about it. The Rhoynar of Essos and Yi Ti have reported similar things to the Long Night and Others but there is still so much mystery.

      Regarding spinoffs, usually you see it with popular sitcoms as you listed them. I guess it’s not done as much with dramas.

      Yeah — I think this usually is done with sitcoms. Cheers/Frasier are sitcoms! However, BtVS/Angel were dramas. There’s also Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul too, another spin-off derived drama 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    75. Adrianacandle: No, not that I can recall. Both get mentions in the world books but that’s really about it. The Rhoynar of Essos and Yi Ti have reported similar things to the Long Night and Others but there is still so much mystery.

      Yeah — I think this usually is done with sitcoms. Cheers/Frasier are sitcoms! However, BtVS/Angel were dramas. There’s also Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul too, another spin-off derived drama 🙂

      oooh. Thanks for remembering the drama spinoffs!! That makes me more hopeful that it could happen one day! Yes, I delved into Better Call Saul, but I never watched Breaking Bad! Well, I did watch a couple episodes and I just wasn’t into it at the time. Maybe I should revisit. I remember my Dad (when he was living) was a big fan of Angel 🙂 So yes, a “Nymeria” spinoff would be possible for a drama!

      I do look forward to HotD. There’s something about how GOT produced their show that gave it a theater quality. I’ve watched other shows with Knights that just don’t compare. Is it just the big budget? The model of cameras used? the frame rate of the cameras? the acting? The scripts? The high thread count (for Ten Bears), the special effects quality, the set design? the costumes? or something else that made it feel so different?

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    76. Adrianacandle,

      ”…I think Angel and Frasier are two good examples of spin-off series that worked because they worked without an audience needing to be familiar with the parent show or character beforehand. Just my two cents though! 🙂”

      Hmmm… Do you think that these spin-offs would’ve succeeded without a core audience from the original, at least until the spin-off could get its footing and draw in new viewers?
      (I don’t know the answer. I’m just spitballing.)

      Sure, when it comes down to it, a spin-off has to rise and fall on its own merits.

      FWIW, I liked Frasier better than Cheers. While I could’ve done without Frasier’s limping father and the dog, I liked the humor in poor, self-possessed Frasier getting taken down a few pegs (but not too far), and I really enjoyed and identified with Niles and his secret love for Daphne.
      [Ygritte’s voice in my head: “What’s ‘swooning’?”
      Me: “Niles, when Daphne sashays by .”]

      Sorry to say I was never a Buffy watcher. I know you’re a fan. (Michelle Trachtenberg was in “Buffy,” right? I liked her in other things…)

      In any event, whether a spin-off has a “legacy” character or not, I think we’d agree it won’t last without good writers and actors. Riding the coattails of the original only gets you so far.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Tron79: I do look forward to HotD. There’s something about how GOT produced their show that gave it a theater quality. I’ve watched other shows with Knights that just don’t compare. Is it just the big budget? The model of cameras used? the frame rate of the cameras? the acting? The scripts? The high thread count (for Ten Bears), the special effects quality, the set design? the costumes? or something else that made it feel so different?

      You know, I think this is hard to answer because I think it contained so many things that could appeal to many different people ad it the way it was done. It wasn’t truly one genre (fantasy) or the other (real-world historical). It was both but in different ways. It kind of had something for everyone 🙂

      I’d definitely recommend giving Breaking Bad another chance! Give it a few episodes starting from the first one? 🙂 My dad was also very into Angel! I think he preferred it to Buffy.

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    78. Tron79,

      ”I get the feeling that HBO shies away from stories without source material now. Perhaps it’s too open ended for them to take a chance, or they don’t want to get backlash like what happened with D&D when they ran out of source material.”

      Ahh! I hadn’t thought about that. Maybe the dearth of source material is why HBO pulled the plug on Blood Moon after viewing the pilot (without an opportunity to fix it), and yet greenlit a full season of HotD sight unseen – based on GRRM’s Dance of the Dragons backstory?

        Quote  Reply

    79. Ten Bears,

      Hmmm… Do you think that these spin-offs would’ve succeeded without a core audience from the original, at least until the spin-off could get its footing and draw in new viewers?

      Oh, I think both Frasier and Angel could have succeeded without the Buffy and Cheers, that’s how strong I felt the series were and the premises. When I watched Frasier, I had never seen a single episode of Cheers (and Cheers was a bit before my conscious time). It was Frasier that got me interested in Cheers 🙂

      Likewise, I know of quite a few Angel viewers who had never seen a single episode of Buffy. While I expect there were quite a few Buffy viewers who checked Angel out because they were curious (at the same time, there were quite a few upset over Angel’s departure that they swore never to watch the show), if Angel hadn’t been strong on its own, it couldn’t have gone on for 5 seasons.

      Angel was a cool premise — vampire detective who can only work at night, fighting evil on earth — a lawfirm (Wolfram & Hart) — who the world’s demons would use to represent them 😉

      While I could’ve done without Frasier’s limping father and the dog, I liked the humor in poor, self-possessed Frasier getting taken down a few pegs (but not too far), and I really enjoyed and identified with Niles and his secret love for Daphne.

      My favourite character ever was Lilith. I loved how they treated her as if she were the coming apocalypse. I’m glad they didn’t over-use her because I think that would have destroyed her mystique but she remains one of my faves to this day!

      Sorry to say I was never a Buffy watcher. I know you’re a fan. (Michelle Trachtenberg was in “Buffy,” right? I liked her in other things…)

      She was! She played Dawn, Buffy’s younger sister.

      In any event, whether a spin-off has a “legacy” character or not, I think we’d agree it won’t last without good writers and actors. Riding the coattails of the original only gets you so far.

      Right — I think it’d help for the first episode or two but after that, the coattails would probably expire and leave the series to sink or float on its own.

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    80. Dame of Mercia: Wimsey, where hast thou been? Mind thy own confounded business do I hear thee say?

      I would say, but I’m still negotiating with both HBO and STARZ about adapting it to a TV series: we don’t want any spoilers!

      Oddly, negotiations have been very one-sided….

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    81. Tron79: I’m not sure why a show based on Robert’s Rebellion doesn’t thrill me. Perhaps because we now know it was based on an untruth.

      The bigger problem that it would face is that of all prequels: the plot is constrained by a prior story rather than being constructed for its own story. It would be much closer to what Rudy Giuliani thought Game of Thrones was: a fictional historical documentary. (For those of you not familiar with the details of recent US politics, Rudy is to intellectuals what child-safe scissors are to an expertly designed katana forged from titanium.)

      If they are to go the prequel route, then it needs to be something set deeper in time so that the plot can be devised around whatever story they are trying to tell. And if it contradicts what we are told in the books or the show, then I refer you to the 1776 Project (which actually presents a history that many Americans believe to be true regardless of what historians say). Or, of course, we can just call it “retconning”!

      And that in turn raises the question: why set it in Martin’s universe at all at that point? (That’s partly rhetorical: marketing is a key aspect of this completely independent of the artistic endeavor.)

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    82. Tron79,

      Before I forget: I started reading your IMDB reviews

      , and a hearty yes!!! to your suggestion that Mila Kunis and Isla Fisher (I think) should team up. Mila Kunis was adorable in “Forgetting Sarah Marshall,” though I agree that “Jupiter Ascending” was kind of silly: except for Mila glammed up for the wedding scene, the rest of the movie was fight, fight some more, a little exposition, then fight again.
      Isla Fisher was a hoot in “Wedding Crashers.” She stole the show. And while I felt Zach G. was miscast in “Keeping Up with the Joneses” (neighbors as secret spies movie), it’s kind of hard to complain about seeing Isla Fisher and Gal Gadot trying on lingerie together, and then making out to unnerve the bad guys.

      I’ll read more of them now that I’ve got the link. Thanks!

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    83. Ten Bears: Hmmm… Do you think that these spin-offs would’ve succeeded without a core audience from the original, at least until the spin-off could get its footing and draw in new viewers?

      That is a good question. Spinoffs were very common when I was a kid. All in the Family spawned at least two spinoffs, the Mary Tyler Moore show had at least three and Happy Days had at least three. Of course, most of these were “budding” rather than “anagenetic”: Rhoda was running at the same time as MTM (and became much more popular for a while), both Mork & Mindy and Lavernne & Shirley were running while Happy Days was running. In a few cases, the spinoffs were based on characters who appeared for just one or two episodes but resonated strongly with viewers. The fact that those shows succeeded suggests that they did not really need the “ancestral” show. And in at least one case, the “spinoff” was hardly a spinoff at all: the Lou Grant show was a popular late ’70’s / early ’80’s prime-time drama with character arcs (albeit without story arcs) over the course of the show, whereas MTM was a classic sitcom in which each episode was almost entirely self-contained. Realistic evolution of the characters was difficult because of the fear that changing anything permanently would alienate the audience. I dimly recall that actually did sink Rhoda as the show’s popularity plummeted at one point, either following the big buildup to Rhoda getting married (and thus irreversibly culminating an actual arc!) or after the actor playing Rhoda’s husband left the show and they decided to resolve it as their getting divorced. I think that it was the latter: but I was like 10 when this was happening, and I didn’t get that divorce was still considered “controversial” given that about half of my friends had divorced parents.

      Regardless of what worked 40-50 years ago, I really think that what succeeded on TV in the ’70s and early ’80s is zero guide to what will succeed now: TV evolved radically in the 1980’s as nearly all shows (including the dwindling numbers of sitcoms) started to become soap operas with actual protagonists and long-term dynamic development of characters. That’s still a step short of modern TV series, but it seems that the proliferation of spinoff hits ceased around that time, and it might well-reflect the change in types of TV stories that were being made.

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    84. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Before I forget: I started reading your IMDB reviews

      I’ll read more of them now that I’ve got the link. Thanks!

      Hey thanks for reading!! At least one person did!
      I just watched..

      Isla Fisher in Definitely/Maybe with Ryan Reynolds. I don’t think I reviewed that one.. It was quite pleasant if you want a heartfelt movie…

      The movie that I felt like everyone hated (except me) was Chloe Grace Moretz in Shadow in a Cloud. I hope they put that on HBO for you one day. It’s still only available at full price a la carte on Amazon. But it’s quite the ride. It’s also very short (at something like an hour and 23 minutes). Chloe kicks some serious monster butt. She would be great to team up with Maisie in an action movie, and they both probably wouldn’t mind some comic elements.

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    85. Tron79,

      ”I do look forward to HotD. There’s something about how GOT produced their show that gave it a theater quality. I’ve watched other shows with Knights that just don’t compare. Is it just the big budget? The model of cameras used? the frame rate of the cameras? the acting? The scripts? The high thread count (for Ten Bears), the special effects quality, the set design? the costumes? or something else that made it feel so different?”

      With the caveat that I have no theater background and zero aptitude for the arts so I probably don’t know what I’m talking about, I think the answer is… all of the above.
      GoT could’ve easily skimped on production values and cut corners, and someone like me wouldn’t really notice the difference. Yet, I got the sense that everybody involved was at the top of their game, and to borrow another sports metaphor, elevated each other’s game.
      For instance, I am sartorially challenged, and only afterwards could I appreciate how much craftsmanship and skill went into designing the costumes. I wouldn’t have noticed of they dressed the Kingsguard in matching plastic trash bags, but to see the customized armor closeup made me appreciate how much time and artistry went into them.
      I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention Ramin Djawadi’s (sp?) score. Unlike many fans, I cannot identify house or character “themes.” All I know is that the score in certain scenes evoke or coincide with emotional reactions to what I’m seeing. Case in point: Jon Snow’s coronation scene near the end of S6e10. Upon rewatch, I notice how the music starts out softly and unobtrusive, and builds to a crescendo as the lords join in proclaiming him KitN. The lofty music with the choral voices singing (?) that closed out S4e10, “The Children” made Arya’s farewell on the deck of the ship, sailing off to the unknown new adventures, memorable (for me).
      Another thing that I notice on rewatch is the sound production and editing.
      It’s the little things like that, all coming together, that made GoT stand out. For example, you can hear the sounds of steel scraping against their scabbords when Lord Manderly and Lord Glover draw out their swords to proclaim Jon “King in the North!” Similarly, when Jon, Sansa and Davos visited Bear Island to try to recruit soldiers in S6e7, you can head a heavy old door creak on its hinges as they enter the hall, right before Lyanna Mormont greets them (“Welcome to Bear Island.”) The show’s artisans didn’t have to be so meticulous with such details. That they did added to the realism and immersion of the scenes.
      (Despite my limitations, I like to ask myself why a particular scene was so effective. Usually it’s because all of the departments contributing to the production perform their tasks elegantly and seamlessly, without calling undue attention to them.)

      Another example, involving cinematography and sound production: In S1e1, with Sansa and Arya in their sewing lesson with Septa Mordane.
      Upon rewatch, I noticed how the camera first shows us Sansa being commended by Septa Mordane (“Well done!”) while poor Arya is fumbling with her embroidery. Then the camera slowly zooms in on Arya, and circles around her head as she looks off, distracted by the sounds of the boys’ archery practice outside. (Without a word, that tells you where her head’s at.) Again, the show could have gotten away with a single fixed camera shot without the movement and zooming in, and without the sound of the unseen commotion outdoors. Yet, including all of these details, fortified by the music, the lighting, the cinematographic techniques – and of course the young prodigy’s expressive acting

      #ARLTA

      made that scene work – and set up the payoff when we next see Arya, zinging the arrow into the bullseye and taking a bow with a mischievous smile. 🎯

      When GoT fired on all cylinders its quality matched or exceeded big budget Hollywood movies. Even when GoT wasn’t at its best script- or story-wise, its production values remained top notch. (Some fans didn’t like “The Bells,” and yet, as we’ve often commented, that episode was chock full of iconic images.)

      While I could and should bloviate some more about GoT’s trademark “high thread count” scenes, I’ll stop here before I bore you (even more) with a long-winded amateur analysis of S4e7 “Mockingbird” aka “The Wall to Wall High Thread Count Episode.”

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    86. Ten Bears: So it’s a documentary? 👿

      Yep!! XD (And this made me laugh out loud! I think this is why the series appeals so much to my dad… It’s a lawfirm literally representing the world’s evil with the Senior Partners being unseen hellish all-powerful demons. It’s good!)

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    87. Tron79,

      …Isla Fisher in Definitely/Maybe with Ryan Reynolds. I don’t think I reviewed that one.. It was quite pleasant if you want a heartfelt movie.”

      I did see that movie, and as much as I loathe criticizing child actors, I have to confess that every scene with Ryan Reynolds’s character’s daughter (I won’t name the actress) made me cringe. I wasn’t thrilled with the “which ex-gf is the mommy?” conceit either.

      Other than that, I liked the movie, and loved Isla Fisher in it. Elizabeth Banks and Rachel Weisz were pretty good too, each playing less than saintly exes.

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    88. Adrianacandle,

      Oh, don’t get me wrong. I loved mid-90s to early 2000s shows! It was about then when I fell in love with television/small screen again and preferred it over movies. I’ve never looked back and still don’t, especially these days.

      I’ve seen soo many shows that I really liked. Standouts were series like, “Babylon 5”, “Space Above And Beyond”, “Earth 2”, (looooooved that one), “Brimstone”, “Dark Angel”, “Total Recall 2070”, the above-mentioned “Roar”, “Harsh Realm”, “New York Undercover”, “My So-Called Life”, “Dead Like Me” and one my all time favourite shows (from Chris Carter…with even an “X-Files” crossover episode)…”Millenium”!

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    89. loco73: Oh, don’t get me wrong. I loved mid-90s to early 2000s shows! It was about then when I fell in love with television/small screen again and preferred it over movies. I’ve never looked back and still don’t, especially these days.

      I was only joking!! 🙂 But I completely agree with this and am so glad to meet somebody else who watched Dead Like Me! I feel it’s such a little known show but I thought it was absolutely br*ll*ant 🙂

      And yes!! I remember Millennium as well!!

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    90. Adrianacandle,

      Adrianacandle…

      I looked up “Dead Like Me,” and although it looks like it was well-received at first, according to the Screenrant article below it appears the show was cursed by the dreaded premature creator departure syndrome, and then abruptly canceled – before an attempt to resurrect it fell flat.

      Is that accurate? As good as it may have been out of the gate, I’ve learned my lesson to avoid promising shows that fall apart or fizzle out by midway through the second season.*

      https://screenrant.com/dead-like-me-life-death-cancelled-show-epilogue/amp/

      [Excerpts follow]
      ****
      Dead Like Me: Life After Death Gave The Cancelled Show An Epilogue
      March 25, 2020
      screenrant.com

      “Dead Like Me: Life After Death brought back the cult series and gave fans something of an epilogue after its abrupt cancellation.”

      ***
      “Following frequent clashes with MGM over the direction of Dead Like Me, Fuller left the show after five episodes. Without his leadership, the second season took a noticeable downturn in quality and was cancelled in 2004. Fans got their wish for a revival with 2009 STV movie Dead Like Me: Life After Death. This takes place five years into Georgia’s grim reaper job, where she and her co-workers have to deal with the arrival of sleazy new boss Kane (Henry Ian Cusick, Lost) whilst she tries to reconnect with her sister.

      “Sadly, Dead Like Me: Life After Death didn’t live up to the series. Neither Bryan Fuller nor Mandy Patinkin returned for the movie and it lacks the wit and charm of the show’s best episodes. Ellen Muth is still great as Georgia and director Stephen Herek (Critters) manages to squeeze some laughs out of proceedings, however. The DVD movie was produced with the thought of making another series, and the movie ends with Georgia being promoted to head reaper. Had the show continued, this could have been a fresh new direction, but Dead Like Me: Life After Death proved to be the show’s epilogue.”

      —————— End Excerpt ——-

      * Example: “The Blacklist.” I loved it at first, and kept watching it for a while because of James Spader, but halfway through Season 2 it went off the rails; it’s still on the air but it’s still a mess. It retcons its own retcons each season. I’m sorry to say that

      the female lead isn’t captivating at all, and can’t hold a candle to James Spader. She’s supposed to play a Clarice Starling-type FBI profiler, and pseudo surrogate daughter to Spader’s master criminal character.

      [Whinge, continued…] For me, the (second) worst part of The Blacklist’s nosedive was that in the first season, a terrific young actress guest-starred. I’d never seen her before and never heard of her before. My first thought was, “Hey, SHE should be playing the female lead. She’s

      charismatic and mysterious.

      She’s able to portray the full gamut of emotions, from

      playful and mischievous to serious and threatening.”

      . She should be the co-star.

      Nope. Her guest-starring role and story arc concluded in Season 1. My far-fetched wish that she’d somehow replace the

      mannequin co-starring with Spader didn’t come true.

      Fast forward a few years, and there was that terrific young actress on my TV screen accepting an Emmy for Best Actress: Rachel Brosnahan, the star of “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.”

      Sorry about the digression. I guess I’m reluctant to invest time in a show that may have started out promising before it lost its creator, fizzled out, and got pulled off the air. Maybe it’s best to devote my time (and limited attention span) to completed shows with proven track records for consistent quality throughout their run?

      Please let me know if I’m wrong to be apprehensive about “Dead Like Me.”

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    91. Ten Bears,

      Sadly, that sounds about right. I think the first season does work as a standalone but I think the second season begins to lose its way somewhat, though I still really enjoyed it. The attempts to revive it… weren’t as good.

      Although, the cast and writing is really nicely done and it explores some really interesting ideas.

      Fuller has a really unique whimsical quality and a solid sense of humour, I’d say, that is present in three of his shows (Dead Like Me, Wonderfalls, Pushing Daisies). However, I believe all three were prematurely cancelled with Pushing Daisies getting the most closure.

      Pushing Daisies does really make me want pie though — and it’s a pie I’ll never get since I’m far too lazy to make one and I always forget when I’m at the store, putting me in a perpetual stage of pie lust… But it also has Kristin Chenoweth!

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    92. Adrianacandle,

      ”Pushing Daisies does really make me want pie though — and it’s a pie I’ll never get since I’m far too lazy to make one and I always forget when I’m at the store, putting me in a perpetual stage of pie lust… But it also has Kristin Chenoweth!”

      Kristin Chenoweth…You mean the petite blonde powerhouse fangirling over Cyndi Lauper at 1:54 – 2:01 and 2:12 – 2:15 of this video?

      P.S. From a quick search I see that Kristen Chenoweth won a Best Supporting Actress Emmy for “Pushing Daisies” in 2009; won a Tony Award for featured actress in a musical in 1999; and originated the role of Glinda in the Broadway show “Wicked” in 2003.
      She must be really talented. Time for me to look for YouTube clips…

        Quote  Reply

    93. Ten Bears: Kristin Chenoweth…You mean the petite blonde powerhouse fangirling over Cyndi Lauper at 1:54 – 2:01 and 2:12 – 2:15 of this video?

      That’s her!

      And a warm welcome to my new earworm.

      Kristin Chenoweth also covered Eternal Flame on Pushing Daisies in her own (interrupted) musical interlude 🙂

      P.S. From a quick search I see that Kristen Chenoweth won a Best Supporting Actress Emmy for “Pushing Daisies” in 2009; won a Tony Award for featured actress in a musical in 1999; and originated the role of Glinda in the Broadway show “Wicked” in 2003.
      She must be really talented. Time for me to look for YouTube clips…

      She is one of my favourites ever and it felt like Wicked’s Glinda was tailor fit to her strengths! Her Glinda is what got me into Wicked in the first place and what I modeled that blue bubble dress after (the one I wore when out in -30C temperatures). I believe she also had a cameo on Frasier! Can’t name the episode but I certainly remember her 🙂

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    94. Adrianacandle: I was only joking!! 🙂 But I completely agree with this and am so glad to meet somebody else who watched Dead Like Me! I feel it’s such a little known show but I thought it was absolutely br*ll*ant 🙂

      And yes!! I remember Millennium as well!!

      I loved Dead Like Me and I was very sorry it got cancelled. I watched the movie too.
      Tying it into GOT, I suppose there could be a Lady Stoneheart Dead Like Me spinoff. Or more likely it would be starring Harry Strickland from the Golden company who got killed almost immediately when Drogon crashed the gates from the inside. That wasn’t quite as bad as getting hit by a space toilet, but it was close. It could be called “Dead like Harry” perhaps…

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    95. Tron79: I loved Dead Like Me and I was very sorry it got cancelled.I watched the movie too.
      Tying it into GOT, I suppose there could be a Lady Stoneheart Dead Like Me spinoff.Or more likely it would be starring Harry Strickland from the Golden company who got killed almost immediately when Drogon crashed the gates from the inside. That wasn’t quite as bad as getting hit by a space toilet, but it was close.It could be called “Dead like Harry” perhaps…

      You watched Dead Like Me! 😀

      I really do love the idea of Lady Stoneheart as a reaper in the middle-management of the afterlife, having to work a mundane office job to pay her way since reaping doesn’t pay or provide benefits 😉

      I think Roxy and LSH would best get along. Or Rube?

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    96. Adrianacandle: I was only joking!! 🙂 But I completely agree with this and am so glad to meet somebody else who watched Dead Like Me! I feel it’s such a little known show but I thought it was absolutely br*ll*ant 🙂

      And yes!! I remember Millennium as well!!

      Not only watched it. Loved it. Still have both seasons on DVD. As for the movie…ugh… couldn’t stand it…. instead of providing some closure for the fans, it felt instead like slap. A cheesy, cheap, crummy attempt at an epilogue, it would have been best left in developmental hell…

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    97. Adrianacandle,
      Kristin Chenoweth played Easter in ‘American Gods’ though she didn’t sing. I only saw the first series of that show and haven’t read the source material but I quite liked it. Her surname sounds like she could have Cornish ancestry but I think when I looked her up on the internet it said she was adopted (BTW I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with someone being adopted).

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    98. loco73: Not only watched it. Loved it. Still have both seasons on DVD. As for the movie…ugh… couldn’t stand it…. instead of providing some closure for the fans, it felt instead like slap. A cheesy, cheap, crummy attempt at an epilogue, it would have been best left in developmental hell…

      Yeah, I agree. I wasn’t a fan of the epilogue-attempts. I would have been fine with leaving it where it ended in season 2.

      But yes, so much love for Dead Like Me! I can’t say how many times I’ve watched it and it’s been years since my last rewatch. Especially after revisiting clips on YouTube, I should finally do another rewatch!

      I think one of my favourite scenes that I was just reminded of is

      when Mason is bugging Roxy, Roxy decides to take out her gun and point it at him. Well, he keeps egging her on until the waitress, Kiffany, confirms that no, Roxy doesn’t get free meals for being a police officer. When Mason takes the opportunity to gloat, Roxy suddenly shoots him under the table without warning XD

      Love Dead Like Me! I’m happy to find other DLM lovers on this board!! 😀

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    99. Dame of Mercia: Kristin Chenoweth played Easter in ‘American Gods’ though she didn’t sing. I only saw the first series of that show and haven’t read the source material but I quite liked it. Her surname sounds like she could have Cornish ancestry but I think when I looked her up on the internet it said she was adopted (BTW I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with someone being adopted).

      Oh, I’m going to have to check that out! Thanks!

      She’s one of the people who I really love to see singing live because her voice and ability are both so solid. She makes it seem effortless. When I see live singing like this, it’s almost like magic because I can’t even dream of making my voice sound this way but it’s like they just open out and… magic 🙂

      (I know it’s far from magic, I know it takes a ton of hard work and so so so much time! But man, she makes it look as effortless as water flowing in a stream…)

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    100. Adrianacandle: You watched Dead Like Me! 😀

      I really do love the idea of Lady Stoneheart as a reaper in the middle-management of the afterlife, having to work a mundane office job to pay her way since reaping doesn’t pay or provide benefits 😉

      I think Roxy and LSH would best get along. Or Rube?

      It would be fun seeing LS at the breakfast table with everyone. Yes I can see her getting along with Roxy. Thinking back, I didn’t know about DLM when it was actually on the air. I had a friend from work who was a major Mandy Patinkin fan girl. She used to travel to see his appearances. She loved the show and told me about it. I think I binged all of the episodes over 10 years ago. It may have been one of the first shows I really binged. I think I saw the movie when it made it to TV in 2009 or 2010 maybe.. I remember feeling really disappointed that the show had to end and I was out of episodes. Life doesn’t get any easier after you are dead! (one of the lessons)

      Oh, I had a thought that I would have prefered the way DLM depicted Gravelings to the way the HDM depicted Specters. The Gravelings always looked so menacing when they all gathered together. They could have been made to look scarier in HDM. I wasn’t crazy about the misty looking Specters in HDM that looked alot like HP’s Dementors even though I read they were trying not to make them look like Dementors.

      Oh and with my psychology background, the first thing I thought was we need to do a study! When I read there were several GOT fans here who also loved DLM, that sounded like a great premise for a hypothesis that if you loved DLM, you were likely to become part of the fandom of GOT who posts about the show 2 years later and still loves it! Anyway, it would have been an interesting study.

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    101. Adrianacandle,

      ”…But yes, so much love for Dead Like Me! I can’t say how many times I’ve watched it and it’s been years since my last rewatch. Especially after revisiting clips on YouTube, I should finally do another rewatch!”

      Guess what I found on YouTube?

      Dead Like Me: S1e1 Pilot Episode [1:13:29]

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqTMsAAHf7Q

      I think all episodes (two seasons?) may be posted.
      I just watched the pilot episode.

      I want my life back!”
      “It’s not like you were doing anything with it.”

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    102. Tron79,

      It would be fun seeing LS at the breakfast table with everyone. Yes I can see her getting along with Roxy. Thinking back, I didn’t know about DLM when it was actually on the air. I had a friend from work who was a major Mandy Patinkin fan girl. She used to travel to see his appearances. She loved the show and told me about it. I think I binged all of the episodes over 10 years ago. It may have been one of the first shows I really binged. I think I saw the movie when it made it to TV in 2009 or 2010 maybe.. I remember feeling really disappointed that the show had to end and I was out of episodes. Life doesn’t get any easier after you are dead! (one of the lessons)

      LSH at Der Waffel House getting a post-it XD LSH interacting with Mason….

      Yes, I didn’t see the show while it was on air but shortly after, when I heard about Wonderfalls and I looked up Bryan Fuller. That’s when I found out about DLM 🙂

      I really like Mandy Patinkin in this! I think he’s one of my favourite parts of DLM.

      Because he wasn’t in the movies, that’s why they lacked a lot of their flavour for me.

      As for a DLM-GoT fan connection, perhaps it speaks to a longevity of being part of a fandom. I think the GoT-verse may be helped by having things like HotD to provide new things to discuss though 🙂

      The Gravelings always looked so menacing when they all gathered together. They could have been made to look scarier in HDM. I wasn’t crazy about the misty looking Specters in HDM that looked alot like HP’s Dementors even though I read they were trying not to make them look like Dementors.

      Funnily enough, my thoughts were the other way around!

      I wished gravelings looked more like the less-corporeal spectres when setting up the needed death requirements. I always felt gravelings looked too on the cartoony side — that something less familiar looking, more misty, more like an element would perhaps be scarier because it’s less familiar.

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    103. This was one of my favourite shows …”Earth 2”…one of the first shows to attempt to provide the “cinematic” experience on the small screen. It aired on NBC if you can believe that…in a rare moment of bravery!

      However for it’s time it was prohibitively expensive, because of it’s special effects (which have held up remarkably well) …and even scale of production. It only lasted one season unfortunately.

      It’s pretty cool that it starred Rebecca Gayheart who ended up in a few episodes in the first season of “Dead Like Me”, and the always awesome Clancy Brown.

      Here is the trailer I could find for “Earth 2”…a show that in many ways was ahead of it’s time:

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    104. To continue my pitiful journey of dead series, here is a small clip from the show….uhhhh and something I should have also remembered, this series had Tim Curry in it as well!!!

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    105. Uh, uh…anybody remember “Sliders”?! That was a fun show!!! Starring none other than John Rhys-Davies…Gimli himself…and Jerry O’Connell…LOL…I better stop before I slide on a nostalgia fuelled binge…

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    106. loco73,

      Nostalgia binge? How about a little pre-Cersei Lena Headey…
      …in Imagine Me and You (2005) – arcade dance scene with Piper Perabo + “what the lily means.” [1:43 long]

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    107. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      LSH at Der Waffel House getting a post-it XD LSH interacting with Mason….

      Yes, I didn’t see the show while it was on air but shortly after, when I heard about Wonderfalls and I looked up Bryan Fuller. That’s when I found out about DLM 🙂

      I really like Mandy Patinkin in this! I think he’s one of my favourite parts of DLM.

      As for a DLM-GoT fan connection, perhaps it speaks to a longevity of being part of a fandom. I think the GoT-verse may be helped by having things like HotD to provide new things to discuss though 🙂

      Funnily enough, my thoughts were the other way around!

      I’ll have to rewatch the gravelings. I do recall them to look somewhat cartoonish. I think it was when a bunch of them attached themselves to a person it looked creepier.

      I wonder if we should follow the instagram feeds from the actors in HoTD to see if any of them post something about costume fittings, filming, etc.. I’m hoping we get some news and some clandestine photos.

      Can you describe the Dunk and Egg books? Are they funny? They sound like they would be funny, but I’m not sure. My birthday is coming up, and I’m not sure if I should put them on my list for my kids to get them for me. I’ve decided I can’t handle reading GRRM’s historical texts. That style is too difficult for me to enjoy reading and my memory isn’t good enough to absorb it all. I love his POV style in ASOIAF. I’m pondering whether I should read all of The Expanse books. So far the show experience has made me happy and I haven’t been curious about the books yet. But perhaps I should read Dunk and Egg…..

        Quote  Reply

    108. Tron79: Can you describe the Dunk and Egg books? Are they funny? They sound like they would be funny, but I’m not sure. My birthday is coming up, and I’m not sure if I should put them on my list for my kids to get them for me. I’ve decided I can’t handle reading GRRM’s historical texts. That style is too difficult for me to enjoy reading and my memory isn’t good enough to absorb it all. I love his POV style in ASOIAF. I’m pondering whether I should read all of The Expanse books. So far the show experience has made me happy and I haven’t been curious about the books yet. But perhaps I should read Dunk and Egg…..

      The Dunk & Egg novellas are written far more like ASOIAF than the world books. They’re written from a character’s POV so you have those moments of levity and of humour that are typical of ASOIAF 🙂 I don’t know that they’re funnier than ASOIAF but I think you’d enjoy these novellas. They’re not written like historical texts.

      I’ll have to rewatch the gravelings. I do recall them to look somewhat cartoonish. I think it was when a bunch of them attached themselves to a person it looked creepier.

      Like when they were set to follow somebody? Yeah, that did give a creepy aura.

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    109. loco73: It’s pretty cool that it starred Rebecca Gayheart who ended up in a few episodes in the first season of “Dead Like Me”, and the always awesome Clancy Brown.

      Oh, cool! Thanks for the DLM connection! 🙂

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    110. Adrianacandle: The Dunk & Egg novellas are written far more like ASOIAF than the world books. They’re written from a character’s POV so you have those moments of levity and of humour that are typical of ASOIAF 🙂 I don’t know that they’re funnier than ASOIAF but I think you’d enjoy these novellas. They’re not written like historical texts.

      Like when they were set to follow somebody? Yeah, that did give a creepy aura.

      Thanks. I just put “The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” on my birthday list. It has The Hedge Knight, The Sworn Sword, and The Mystery Knight with illustrations in one volume. I like the idea of reading shorter novellas right now too, so I’ll give ol’ Dunk and Egg a go.

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    111. Ten Bears,

      Also let’s not forget that Lena was not a complete stranger to HBO, having had a role in the HBO/BBC movie, “The Gathering Storm” with the late, great Albert Finney!!!

        Quote  Reply

    112. Tron79: Thanks. I just put “The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” on my birthday list. It has The Hedge Knight, The Sworn Sword, and The Mystery Knight with illustrations in one volume.I like the idea of reading shorter novellas right now too, so I’ll give ol’ Dunk and Egg a go.

      You are going to love it!!

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    113. I have zero interest in a rehash of Robert’s Rebellion. Of all the possible ASoIaF/GoT TV spinoffs I’ve heard floated, Dunk & Egg is by far the one I most want to see happen. And it’s largely for the same reasons that some GoT viewers might scorn it as a ‘snoozefest’: no big battle set pieces, no dragons, no red priestess magic, little or no need for SFX at all. Just great character interaction and a travelogue that could go on for years, giving us glimpses of all corners of the Seven Kingdoms, briefly interacting with historical personages we may already know about, but much more grounded in the concerns of the smallfolk.

      Ten Bears,

      ‘if there’s not enough “meat” in the three D&E novellas to fill out a multi-season TV adaptation, then the show’s writers would have the creative flexibility if not the necessity, to amplify secondary characters’ storylines – or perhaps to create entirely new characters.’

      This is the scenario I’d love to see happen: a great writers’ room – half female this time and thoroughly vetted by GRRM – with his blessing to create episodes that expand on (without contradicting) what he already has planned for Dunk & Egg’s further adventures. Because it’s a road-buddy dramedy, their surroundings keep changing, so the weekly stories can stay episodic and fresh.

      I grew up in the early days of network television. My love for swashbuckling costume drama was largely nurtured by series like Robin Hood and Ivanhoe and Zorro. They had small core casts and introduced new scenarios every week, rather than developing long-running story arcs. This is what I see as potentially a successful model for Dunk & Egg. Doesn’t require a gigantic budget, either.

      I also like the notion that it has the best potential in the ASoIaF universe to be family-friendly, hooking in a new generation of fans. True, there are fan theories of Dunk being the progenitor of practically every tall character in the saga (e.g. Bran’s vision of a possible young Old Nan standing on tiptoe to kiss a very tall knight), but he’s not a randy sort of guy – he just sort of blunders into romances. And the one fateful encounter that is canon can easily happen offscreen.

      I would really, really like to see this happen. It interests me much more than the Dance of the Dragons with its emo über-WASP dynasty and endless costly green-screen action.

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    114. Mixed feelings on this news really. Not that I don’t want to see Dunk & Egg on screen because I do and I enjoyed the books. My concern is simply that these are just short stories and nothing really like Game of Thrones so I’m not sure they will have the success HBO may desire.

      I know GRRM is planning to write more books but based on the three published stories I’d guess there is no more than 6-8 episodes of material so the writers are going to have to get creative for this to work.

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    115. Firannion: I also like the notion that it has the best potential in the ASoIaF universe to be family-friendly

      Not me. Don’t get me wrong, by definition there’s nothing wrong with a show that’s family friendly, but IMO, GoT is completely different and should stay as far away from that mentality as humanly possible.

      It has nothing to do with violence to me and everything to do with subject matter.

      “Family friendly” tends to mean dumbed down, patronizing, and every mature subject matter gets handled with kid gloves. I would hate to see a show as complex and grey as GoT turn into that.

      I suppose family friendly is ok to me as long as that doesn’t translate into what it usually translates into.

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    116. Firannion: I would really, really like to see this happen. It interests me much more than the Dance of the Dragons with its emo über-WASP dynasty and endless costly green-screen action.

      I think Dunk and Egg are “WASP” too, no?

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