UPDATE: Maisie Williams on What She Wants for the End of Arya’s Journey

704 - Winterfell - Arya, Sansa 1

Maisie Williams is busy this week, out promoting her new animated role in Early Man. She swung by the Radio 1 Breakfast Show a couple days ago to promote the film and to play a fun game with a heart rate monitor! Maisie’s Early Man co-star Eddie Redmayne, her real-life boyfriend Ollie Jackson and her flatmate Bill Milner joined in to help out and to tease season 8 spoilers out of the actress. Not many spoilers were forthcoming but it is very fun!


Maisie also talks to Metro this week and admits to being excited about the future after Thrones, when her schedule opens up. “Yeah, there’s going to be far more time now to do all these other projects that in some ways I’ve missed out on — though I don’t think that has been a negative thing. But to have free time and choose what I want to do with my year is something I’m really looking forward to.”

As for how she’d like Arya’s story to finish off, Williams says to Metro, “I’ve always said I wanted her to find peace. The things that have been driving her through her story have been very bitter and twisted and aggressive. I would love for Arya to find her true self again and let go of this anger and revenge that’s accompanied her on this journey. I’d love for her to be happy.”

Another item of interest from the article that’s caused a bit of speculation from the fandom has to do with some dates dropped in the interview. Maisie is quoted as stating, about Game of Thrones, “We wrap in December and we air our first episode in April [2019]. That’s a four-month turnaround for these huge episodes. There’s a lot that goes into the final edit. You would not want to rush this season at all. We owe it to our audience and our fans to really do this final season to the best of our abilities.”

However, we’ve done some checking with our sources, and they’ve confirmed that the show is still set to finish up filming in the summer as previously established and that there’s no air date set yet. Williams’ interview with Metro was most likely done a long time ago, embargoed (as interviews often are) and held for publishing until now. The dates and months mentioned in the article are unfortunately not accurate.

UPDATE 1/29: Maisie Williams has confirmed that the quote is old and inaccurate.

Speaking of filming, it continues out at the Moneyglass estate near Toome in Northern Ireland! The Winterfell set has been a bustling beehive of activity since filming resumed after the Christmas break.

The next month should be very interesting as Game of Thrones is set to head to Iceland for location filming! Reportedly “some of the main cast” will be involved in Iceland filming, though few details have been available so far. We’ll keep our eyes open for more news as it comes!

79 responses

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    1. Gigi:
      they’re also filming in Croatia next month right?

      Yep..Its seems will have Cercei and Euron back and who knows what other will be there..something surprising perhaps..NK meeting with Cercei and Cerceis reaction is WTF ?lol

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    2. Artemisia: Yep..Its seems will have Cercei and Euron back and who knows what other will be there..something surprising perhaps..NK meeting with Cercei and Cerceis reaction is WTF ?lol

      also kit according to the croatian sources. I wonder if the croatian filming has been pushed back since sue only mentioned iceland here?

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    3. Well..i love Arya[im her biggest fan] and i hope she keep her promise to Lady Crane to travel West of Westeros and not dies in S8..I would like her to go on a Queen Nymeria path and to explore the world beyond Westeros along with Hot Pie, Nymeria and her packs ..Arya has always been the free spirit of the adventure and i hope she stays a free adventurous spirit to the end.Maisie/Arya are so lovely girls.

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    4. Gigi: also kit according to the croatian sources. I wonder if the croatian filming has been pushed back since sue only mentioned iceland here?

      Yep…Kit /Jon will be there for to save KL from the NK ….Maybe in the Iceland will filming now this month who is still cold and in Croatia maybe filming to start in the beginning of the spring..idk ..Ask Sue for this..

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    5. “I’ve always said I wanted her to find peace. The things that have been driving her through her story have been very bitter and twisted and aggressive. I would love for Arya to find her true self again and let go of this anger and revenge that’s accompanied her on this journey. I’d love for her to be happy.” – Maisie Williams
      _________________

      Helping her “let go of this anger and revenge” = Sandor’s role, and parallel path. I hope.

      I just want Sandor to tell Arya, one more time but in a slightly different context:

      “Remember where the heart is.”

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    6. Ten Bears: I just want Sandor to tell Arya, one more time but in a slightly different context:

      “Remember where the heart is.”

      This hung gun, coupled with the paraphrased line “When Jon sees you his heart will probably stop” is rather, gulp, foreboding to me.

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    7. April 2019 Season 8 Game of Thrones Premiere sounds accurate to me …

      I’ve heard at least 5 episodes have to be shown before the end of May 2019 to qualify for the 2019 Emmy awards and HBO wants more Emmy awards for Game of Thrones !!!!

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    8. firstone,
      I’m sure they want to win and like to win awards, but they don’t seem to let the Emmy season dictate when they air considering they allowed S7 to miss the ’17 awards window and will be well over a year old when it’s qualified and considered for this year’s.

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    9. Ryan,

      March 3, 2019 is apparently National Bacon day, so I’ll see your ham bet and raise you a rasher of bacon for March 3.

      j/k, I believe it will probably be in February as well, but I wouldn’t rule out something as late as April yet.

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    10. Given the 2019 Superbowl is 3 February and Easter Sunday is 21 April, I would guess at a premiere date between 10 February and 10 March. That way you can fit in 6 episodes between the two.

      It would also give approx 6/7 months for post-production (normally they take 4).

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    11. I just want my girls (Arya and Sansa) to survive and become LEGENDS!

      I know, they are not Azor Ahai or anything like that but I would love them to legends, important historical characters, role models that the girls from the future generations of westeros will look up to.

      I want Sansa to be remembered as a formidable Lady, a woman who ruled savily and aimly as wardeness of the North/regent to Daenerys and Jon’s baby. Kind of like Margaret of Austria, Wardeness of the law countries and a motherly figure to Charles I of Spain and V of Germany.

      And I want Arya to be an adventurer, a woman who was not intimidated by society and decided to persue her dream of exploring “what’s west of westeros”. Kind of like cristobal Columbus.

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    12. Maisie has also said in a couple of recent interviews that she “loves” the ending and comments on how it’s a “wonderful story”, so hopefully this is a good sign that Arya’s story does indeed end in a way that is somewhat aligned to what she was hoping for. Arya deserves to find contentment, whatever that may be to her.

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    13. I think you will find Sue that the heart rate interview was pre-taped a couple of weeks ago when Maisie, Eddie and Tom were doing their media junket for Early Man over two days.

      Maisie is wearing the exact same outfit she was wearing on one of those days. It would be highly unusual for an actress to wear the same very specific outfit on a separate week to promote the same movie.

      In any case, Maisie is believed to have been in Belfast this week and was last seen there on Thursday night sharing pizza with her boyfriend.

      No idea about the metro interview. I am sure it will be corrected as some stage if it is incorrect.

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    14. I hope that Arya survives the War for the Dawn, marries Gendry, and they go off to explore the world West of Westeros. Or, at least, they get to live in Deepwood Motte, where they can be visited by Nymeria and her pack, and raise their own pack of badass Stark/Baratheon cubs to make sure the North stays free. Either scenario would bring some healing to her trauma -hopefully.
      Sansa, if she survives the war, should be Lady of Winterfell and Wardeness of the North. She would probably opt to annul her marriage to Tyrion, if necessary/possible, and not choose to marry again.
      Alvaricomg,
      Lots of potential there.

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    15. AryaArya,

      I don’t really care about the heart-rate interview to be honest. I just posted it because it was cute. The timing of the Metro interview is what is in question and that’s the one that people did confirm for me that it was off, and so I think she probably sat for that one a long time ago and had no idea when filming was going to end….or was just wildly misquoted, because everyone I’ve talked to says it’s wrong.

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    16. I must admit I trust Sue if she says April 2019 air date is wrong however two other people I trust very much when it comes to thrones (Kim Renfro and James Hibberd) both tweeted a story on this date leaking. I guess it’s something like a date is not confirmed but March/April is the most likely time and that’s what Maisie let slip.

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    17. 3eyes,

      “I hope that Arya survives the War for the Dawn, marries Gendry, and they go off to explore the world West of Westeros…”
      ____________________
      Whom she marries, if anyone, has never been one of Arya’s priorities. I’m not sure that’s significant in the grand scheme of things.

      However, from a wishful thinking standpoint, why not envision Arya with someone – the only one – who recognized her beauty, and told her so? Why not someone – the only one – who expressed any concern whatsoever about what had happened to her during her two-year absence after her encounter with Brienne? Why not someone who stuck out his own neck, put his own life in potential jeopardy, and spoke up out of concern for her welfare when remaining silent was the easiest option? Why not someone whom she could help realize his maximum potential with a dose of her discipline and exercise regimen? Why not someone whose initial interaction with her would make a whimsical “how I met your mother” story if they ever had children? Why not someone who would never blow off an overture from her like “I could be your family”? Why not someone who’d be perfectly content – and supremely qualified – to assume the domestic role in an equal partnership, while she pursues her martial arts interests? Why not someone who’d be delighted to always have a delicious home-cooked meal waiting for her on the table when she got home? Why not someone who’d be absolutely devoted to her, instead of a guy who won’t shut up about the S&M fetish sex he had with a red witch years earlier? Why not the one man who would never give up on…her?

      👸🏻❤️👨🏼‍🍳

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    18. Ten Bears,

      Why not someone who’d be absolutely devoted to her, instead of a guy who won’t shut up about the S&M fetish sex he had with a red witch years earlier?

      Wow, this is really disgusting. It wasn’t “S&M fetish sex.” Gendry was sold, sexually assaulted, and forcibly leeched. Just because he’s male doesn’t make it any less of a violation. And just because the show makes a mockery of it doesn’t mean we, as an audience, have to accept it. Especially when they, rather hypocritically, do it through Sandor who himself is still very much affected by his own childhood trauma.

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    19. Ten Bears:
      Whom she marries, if anyone, has never been one of Arya’s priorities. I’m not sure that’s significant in the grand scheme of things.

      Up to this point, no. However, as Arya learns to let go of her anger and desire for revenge, this could change and may be a part of her maturation, of which Jon would be a big influence. And I think seeing Gendry again will definitely have an effect on her. Regardless of whether they end up together or not, it’s something that does have to be addressed given their relationship in seasons 2 & 3.

      Also, with all due respect, I think you’re overreacting a bit to the fact that Gendry didn’t mention Arya to Jon. Although I do agree that logically it’s a bit odd. But I think the writers wanted the Arya moment to happen between The Hound and Brienne and it would have seemed strange if Gendry talked about her with Jon and then The Hound being surprised when Brienne brings her up. This could easily be handled with a line or two of dialogue next season when they reunite. Gendry could tell her something like “I asked your brother about you and he told me you were back in Winterfell.” Then we know that this conversation happened off screen at some point. Or Gendry could even admit to Arya that he thought about her at times while at King’s Landing.

      There was an interview that Joe Dempsie gave last year where he was asked whether Gendry would want to see Arya again, and according to him Gendry would love to see her again. But it’s one of those things where after years pass, you kind of accept that some people drift in and out of your life, and that’s maybe where he is with Arya right now. And (thankfully) GoT doesn’t go into schmalzy territory, so they’re not going to have characters pining for one another.

      Having said that, I certainly wouldn’t mind Arya and Hot Pie together. That could be a very sweet ending for both of them. However, it doesn’t have much story significance because he is such a minor character.

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    20. 3eyes:
      Ten Bears,

      Point taken. Your wishful thinking is much more interesting, but would this theoretical person be willing to leave his ideal situation? 😀

      In a heartbeat, I would think.

      An old adage used to say that the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach. Would that hold true if updated to be gender-neutral?

      On the two occasions when he prepared food for her, her reactions were:

      “Hey Hot Pie! It’s really good!” S3e3
      “Mmmm! This is good!” S7e2

      When Gendry didn’t mention Arya when introducing himself to Jon or during the Snow Patrol’s trek beyond the Wall – even though she had saved his life from murderous Gold Closks and freed him from Harrenhal, I felt he didn’t deserve her.

      This is all playful fanfic stuff anyway, but I like to root for the underdog who blurted out, unfliltered: “You’re pretty!” And in that moment when he asked in all seriousness, “What happened to you Arry?”, it was the first time anyone had expressed such concern.

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    21. Addendum: If Brienne and Pod hadn’t eaten that second wolf bread themselves (I assume they couldn’t resist), I’m sure Arya would have loved its taste.

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    22. Asshai,

      Except for the leeches part at the end, Gendry’s encounter with Melisandre, including getting tied up, was all consensual. Afterwards, here’s how he described it to Davos (from S3e10):

      Davos: “If you mistrust fancy people so much, why were you in such a hurry to trust her?”

      Gendry: “You’re me. Never been with a woman. Never talked to a woman, really. And then she comes at you– big words, no clothes. What would you have done?”

      Davos: “She does know her way around a man’s head, I’ll give her that.”

      Look, I’m not trying to minimize what he experienced, but this fictional world is a brutal one. Virtually every character has suffered grievous acts of brutality. And Gendry’s excessive protestations, four years later, seemed so out of character with the steely-eyed blacksmith’s apprentice who faced rat bucket torture at Harrenhal with such stoicism.

      I’m going to have to go back and watch Brienne’s speech to self-pitying Jaime right after he lost his sword hand…

      Nevertheless, I understand that we all bring modern sensibilities to what we watch on this medieval fantasy show. Therefore, I apologize to you and anyone else who found what I wrote to be offensive. My intent was to convey, by comparison, that Gendry made no mention of the courageous young girl with whom he’d spent over two years, who put herself at risk – twice – to save his life and his freedom.

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    23. Enharmony1625,

      I don’t want to beat a dead horse. I just thought that when Gendry introduced himself to Jon and wanted to “bond” with him, the normal human interaction would not have commenced with (paraphrasing) “I saw your father for five minutes once when he came into my shop; you’re shorter than him.”

      Rather, he would’ve said: “I’m good friends with your sister Arya. Is she okay? We spent two years together on the road. I interceded when bullies tried to steal the sword you gave her, Needle. She saved my life when Gold Cloaks with a royal warrant for me were going to kill me. She freed me from slavery in Harrenhal. We lost touch after a red witch bought me from the Brotherhood without Banners, though she tried to come to my aid. How is she? Did she ever make it home to Winterfell?”

      I understand conversations happen offscreen, and we can’t be shown every detail of every interaction. I just would’ve expected that the very first thing out of Gendry’s mouth upon meeting Arya’s brother would be to ask about her. Wouldn’t you?

      – End Redundant Mini-Rant –

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    24. Enharmony1625,

      “Having said that, I certainly wouldn’t mind Arya and Hot Pie together. That could be a very sweet ending for both of them. However, it doesn’t have much story significance because he is such a minor character.”
      __________
      Yes, he is a minor character, and my championing his romantic suitability for Arya was all in good fun. Still, I feel that even with his limited screen time, the show has done a fabulous of character development with him: I remember that blowhard bully we first saw in S1, who evolved into such an endearing, good-hearted friend.

      And I always appreciate a little comic relief from his idiosyncrasies, eg not quite accepting that Winterfell is not “WinterHell”; his assumption that anyone wearing armor is a knight; and of course his passion for the gravy.
      (Not to mention this quick little deadpan exchange with Arya that I didn’t get the first time around: HP: “You’ve been making pies?” Arya: “One or two.”)

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    25. Ten Bears:
      Enharmony1625,

      “Having said that, I certainly wouldn’t mind Arya and Hot Pie together. That could be a very sweet ending for both of them. However, it doesn’t have much story significance because he is such a minor character.”
      __________ Yes, he is a minor character, and my championing his romantic suitability for Arya was all in good fun. Still, I feel that even with his limited screen time, the show has done a fabulous of character development with him: I remember that blowhard bully we first saw in S1, who evolved into such an endearing,good-hearted friend.

      And I always appreciate a little comic relief from his idiosyncrasies, eg not quite accepting that Winterfell is not “WinterHell”; his assumption that anyone wearing armor is a knight; and of course his passion for the gravy.
      (Not to mention this quick little deadpan exchange with Arya that I didn’t get the first time around: HP: “You’ve been making pies?” Arya: “One or two.”)

      Totally agree. GoT has done great job of making Hot Pie into an endearing well-rounded (pun intended) character despite his limited screen time. And assuming Arya does indeed turn away from her vengeful ways, Hot Pie deserves much of the credit for that. The closest she’s come to “slipping away” has been 6.10 & 7.01 when she wiped out House Frey, and if Hot Pie hadn’t told her what he did in 7.02, she might very well have been lost beyond repair. What a good, loyal friend! Thank you, Hot Pie!

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    26. With all the construction work they seem to be doing on the Winterfell set, I am hoping that after S8 filming concludes, the landowners will keep the buildings intact for a tourist attraction.

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    27. I think there is a possibility that we’ll find out that there was no mention of Arya from Gendry or the Hound because they both believed she was dead (after all, that’s what we found out when the Hound talked to Brienne) and figured it would be pointless and cruel to mention her to Jon since both knew how beloved she was to him.

      TenBears

      As for why Gendry kept going on about what Melisandre did to him… sure it started out consensual (to a degree)–she completely overwhelmed him with her words and beauty, taking advantage of a tired, hungry, confused boy–but it very, very quickly turned into a situation that was NOT consensual. She tied him to the bed and then put leeches on his penis. He was telling her no, begging her to stop. On top of that, this was his very first sexual encounter so he had nothing to compare to. Whether it started as consensual (again, to a degree–the boy was confused as all hell and in a daze)… it quickly became not so, just terrifying.

      Then right after it happened he was taken out of the extreme comfort and luxury he was promised (for the first time in his life), meeting family (since he was a small child) who happened to be royalty and was thrown into a dungeon and told he was going to be burned at the stake as a sacrifice… by the woman who yes, raped him and his new-found family.

      That is indeed traumatic. Think of that scenario and imagine if it were a young girl and not a young man, maybe that will help highlight just why Gendry was messed up by it.

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    28. Artemisia:
      Well..i love Arya[im her biggest fan] and i hope she keep her promise to Lady Crane to travel West of Westeros …

      What, and discover “Americos”? 😉

      Asshai: Especially when they, rather hypocritically, do it through Sandor who himself is still very much affected by his own childhood trauma.

      Actually, letting Sandor give the response is typical of his character. He’s not about to ask for sympathy for his own past traumas, and not going to play the “sensitive guy” to anyone else’s. It wasn’t “hypocritical”; it was a valid character-revealing moment. Note also how Sandor rebuffed Tormund’s attempt to be “friendly”, and really turned on him when Tormund told him he “has sad eyes.” Sandor isn’t a man who wants to get close to anyone, or reveal himself. Not yet.

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    29. Ten Bears:
      Asshai,
      Except for the leeches part at the end, Gendry’s encounter with Melisandre, including getting tied up, was all consensual.

      Except this is highly debatable if it was consensual, at least in a legal sense. That you and many other people think this was consensual says a lot about the view on sexual assault and its victims. Imo, this is one of the many reasons why there is such a big estimated dark figure of sexual assault survivors who do not go to the police, because they are afraid to get this kind of response. I think this scene is an opportunity, really. Because it is fictional, but the reactions to it are real („no, it‘s fine, it was consensual“, „no, it was totally rape“). I agree if someone said you cannot compare it to Sansa or Daenerys. But that‘s the thing, these two instances are very easy for (almost [weirdos]) everyone to recognize, „oh, yeah, that‘s totally rape“.

      Yes, he never outwardly objects, but there are a lot of other aspects which should raise a lot of red flags and show that what you view as his „consent“ is null and void. One of which is in fact the quote you gave about what he said later.

      Davos: “If you mistrust fancy people so much, why were you in such a hurry to trust her?”
      Gendry: “You’re me. Never been with a woman. Never talked to a woman, really. And then she comes at you– big words, no clothes. What would you have done?”

      The very „roadblock“ (proper in-world) question of Davos aside, Gendry gives you all the signs that he wasn‘t able to object Melisandre, he is defending himself here with Davos. There is a reason why there is such a thing called „age of consent“ nowadays. Not to say that he is not of age, but what is true of many teenagers is also true for him. Not all, but many minors lack the experience and maturity to make able decisions for themselves in some areas of life.

      Melisandre was deliberately deceiving him not despite but because of her vile intentions. S3E08: „And none have seen the blade“…She is lying to manipulate consent, Melisandres glamour is just the tip of the iceberg of this assault, so to speak.

      If you think the scene between Melisandre and Gendry after that looks like consensual sex to you, I would say look again. It is not like he doesn‘t need persuasion, he is very cautious and mistrusting despite that Melisandre already tried to get into his good graces with her telling him who his father was. He never went head over heels until he already bleeped*** her.
      Her sweet talking him, that they are the same (baseborn),
      talking about things he can relate to,
      make him drink alcohol („Go on, have some more“),
      talking about how this was all fate („the Lord of Light willed it, he wants this for us, no, he demands this of us, “),
      stripping him naked, mind you he never bent a finger,
      stripping herself naked in front of him,
      some more grand talking („death is coming for everyone and everything, the darkness that will swallow the dawn, and we can stop it“),
      luring him into the trap,
      making him believe this is fine, despite him asking what she is doing.
      These are all typical moves of a sexual perpetrator, it is called „grooming“. And just because the seduction of Gendry was a means to an end does not mean it wasn‘t rape or sexual assault. His stoic behavior in front of Davos also does not mean it wasn‘t sexual assault. He doesn‘t trust Davos at this point, Gendry has no reason to make himself vulnerable towards Davos. Gendry also gave him the cold shoulder a few lines before that.

      Davos: It was just a bit of blood.
      Gendry: I should have known. Everytime a highborn asks my name it‘s trouble. We‘re not really people to you, are we? Just a million different ways to get what you want.

      And if you ask me, I wouldn‘t give away much either if someone came up to me after something like this happened and told me „it was just a bit of blood“.

      These are also all reasons why I think the scene in S7E06 was out of character, but I hope you can remember that I was totally with you on „Harrenhal and the Tickler“ vs. „Beyond the Wall and BwB“ Gendry.

      Ten Bears:
      Nevertheless, I understand that we all bring modern sensibilities to what we watch on this medieval fantasy show.

      You make it sound like sensibilities are a bad thing? But thanks for apologizing. Appreciated.

      ***[can I say “penetrate”??? don’t know if this is allowed…]

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    30. Cliohna,

      No. Sensibilities are a good thing.

      I do appreciate your reply. I went back and rewatched Melisandre’s scene with Gendry. Knowing her ultimate objective, yes, it was an assault. From Gendry’s perspective, up until the leeches, he was a more than willing participant. That certainly does not excuse what she did from that point forward – or what she intended to do had Davos not freed him. It just seemed that his reaction afterwards was disappointment that he’d been hoodwinked, and inconsistent with his professions of outrage four years later – especially in the company of hardened comrades who’d been subjected to worse acts of violence.

      I will say this though: Melisandre does have a pretty compelling script prepared when it comes to achieving her malevolent objectives through “seduction”: ego-stroking + disrobing + religious necessity. I compared her encounter with Gendry in S3e8 with her attempted seduction of Jon Snow in S5e4. Same modus operandi. Similar spiel. She tells them both they have “power” inside them, and to let her show them how they can tap into that power and fight Death – by having sex with her, as the Lord of Light intended. (Help save the world: have sex with me.. Can’t say I’ve ever heard that pickup line before.)

      Only Jon had the fortitude to turn her down. Because he still loved Ygritte even though she was dead. Sigh…🏹🔥💋

      (From S5e4)

      Jon: “I can’t.”

      Mel: “Why?”

      Jon: “I swore a vow. I loved another.”

      Mel: “The dead don’t need lovers. Only the living.”

      Jon: “I know. But I still love her.”

      (Mel gets off his lap, goes to the door, and turns to him)

      Mel: “You know nothing, Jon Snow.”

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    31. Cliohna,

      I just watched this scene last night, and not to get to into it right now, but I think there are two very different items at play here.

      The first being the sex act itself. Gendry was very much into this… you only have to watch the scene to see that. In fact, I am sure he would’ve had no quarrels at all if it weren’t for the leeching.

      The second is, well, the leeching. This is all he mentions as being traumatizing. If there was no leeching, Gendry would have no problem with it. At least that is my take on it.

      I am not trying to be disingenuous or uncompassionate for those who must deal with sexual abuse, but I really do think you have to separate these two acts in this regard. This scene is definitely not the same thing as sexual abuse; but it is just as bad. I would personally compare this scene more to straight up torture (yes, minor torture when compared to other acts on this show, but torture nonetheless) than rape.

      But that is just my two sense. And I honestly do not think D&D were trying to make any real societal statements with this scene. It was more for plot-driven purposes.

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    32. JenniferH: I think there is a possibility that we’ll find out that there was no mention of Arya from Gendry or the Hound because they both believed she was dead (after all, that’s what we found out when the Hound talked to Brienne) and figured it would be pointless and cruel to mention her to Jon since both knew how beloved she was to him.

      This looks like the best analysis to me. I’ve had a number of incidents myself where I asked someone I hadn’t seen in a long time “And how’s {insert loved one’s name}”, only to be told, stony faced, “S/he’s dead.” I don’t ask anymore about folks who aren’t present.

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    33. Jaehaerys: I just watched this scene last night, and not to get to into it right now, but I think there are two very different items at play here.

      Thanks for your reply! It’s always good to introduce hard data into an ongoing argument. I’ve also got to add that events in Westeros look a lot different from a 21st c “MeToo” perspective than they would in medieval times. Not that we shouldn’t want Westeros to be more modern, egalitarian, and less sexist.

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    34. Ten Bears,

      Should have just read this comment before I posted. Agree with everything said here about Mel & Gendry’s time between the sheets. He was a very willing participant up until the leeches, which was the whole point I was trying to make. Yes, he was certainly “tricked” by Mel… but not into having sex with her. She really needed no tricking for that. She did give him alcohol and seduced him, but it wasn’t all that hard (maybe two minutes worth of time?).

      Anyway, he didn’t need much convincing because he wanted to bang. He was down. I think you’d be hard pressed to call this rape.

      I will certainly admit that it was torture and wrong on Mel’s part, but it was not rape.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Ten Bears,
      On Hot Pie:
      “Yes, he is a minor character, and my championing his romantic suitability for Arya was all in good fun. Still, I feel that even with his limited screen time, the show has done a fabulous of character development with him: I remember that blowhard bully we first saw in S1, who evolved into such an endearing, good-hearted friend. And I always appreciate a little comic relief from his idiosyncrasies, eg not quite accepting that Winterfell is not “WinterHell”.”

      Considering the production photos WotW has shown, it appears “Winterhell” will be the right word in S8. IMO, Hot Pie has evolved into something important, the show’s Wise Fool character. A WF is someone simple who often says things that turn out to be important, predictive, or profound. His mispronouncing the castle name is a great example. I hope his telling her, “I’m like you, ‘arry–I’m a survivor” is even more true.

      kathy,

      “I personally saw the relationship between Gendry and Arya as one of surrogate big brother and little sister.”

      That’s entirely valid, especially at that time when Arya and Maisie were young. But she did make ‘hungry eyes’ at Gendry’s abs. And Maisie was told to say “I can be your family” as if she loved him. Certainly his reply, “No, you’ll be my lady” was meant straightforwardly, but “my lady’ also means wife. All food for thought.

        Quote  Reply

    36. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      “But she did make ‘hungry eyes’ at Gendry’s abs. And Maisie was told to say “I can be your family” as if she loved him. Certainly his reply, “No, you’ll be my lady” was meant straightforwardly, but “my lady’ also means wife. All food for thought.”
      ——————-

      You do realize that from now on every time I rewatch that scene of Arya admiring Gendry’s physique, or the moment she sees him in S8 (if she does), I will hear in my mind Eric Carmen’s voice singing:

      “….Now I’ve got you in my sights,
      With these hungry eyes
      One look at you and I can’t disguise,
      I’ve got hungry eyes…”

        Quote  Reply

    37. Stark Raven’ Rad
      Considering the production photos WotW has shown, it appears “Winterhell” will be the right word in S8. IMO, Hot Pie has evolved into something important, the show’s Wise Fool character. A WF is someone simple who often says thingsthat turn out to be important, predictive, or profound. His mispronouncing the castle name is a great example. I hope his telling her, “I’m like you, ‘arry–I’m a survivor” is even more true.

      That’s such a great observation about “Winterhell”! Never thought of that before. The writing on the show and in the books just keep on giving the more you dig in. And yes, Arya is definitely a survivor!

      kathy,

      “I personally saw the relationship between Gendry and Arya as one of surrogate big brother and little sister.”

      That’s entirely valid, especially at that time when Arya and Maisie were young. But she did make ‘hungry eyes’ at Gendry’s abs. And Maisie was told to say “I can be your family” as if she loved him. Certainly his reply, “No, you’ll be my lady” was meant straightforwardly, but “my lady’ also means wife.All food for thought.

      I’ve always seen it as a bit of both. Gendry certainly reminds Arya of Robb and Jon, but there is a romantic undertone to it whether she realizes it or not. It was shown very strongly in the show just how upset she was when he was taken away. I mean, she added no less than three people to her kill list because of it. And her delivery of the line “I can be your family” is so heartbreakingly emotional that there is little doubt in my mind that her caring for him goes beyond surrogate brother.

        Quote  Reply

    38. What I want for “the end of Arya’s journey”:
      • Arya reunited with Jon, with at least as much care and patience as the beautifully done Jon-Sansa reunion in S6.
      • Sandor reunited with Arya; convinces her to take up a hobby other than sport-killing.
      • Nymeria and her wolfpack come to WF, establish den next to the heart tree, munch on any WWs who come snooping around.
      • Daenerys gives Arya flying lessons; teaches her how to do the Dracarys! command.
      • Arya’s VS dagger gets a cool name. Because “Catspaw Dagger” sounds generic and lame; or the dagger turns out to be Visenya T’s sword, Dark Sister, reforged.
      • Smirking, cackling “rockstar” Euron tries to abduct Sansa, but Arya puts a sword through his eye and out the back of his skull.
      • Melisandre tries to sneak back into the North in her old geezer form; Arya spots the ruse, says “you’re a witch and you f*cked Gendry”, and sticks her with the pointy end of Needle.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Ten Bears:
      What I want for “the end of Arya’s journey”:
      • Arya reunited with Jon, with at least as much care and patience as the beautifully done Jon-Sansa reunion in S6.
      • Sandor reunited with Arya; convinces her to take up a hobby other than sport-killing.
      • Nymeria and her wolfpack come to WF, establish den next to the heart tree, munch on any WWs who come snooping around.
      • Daenerys gives Arya flying lessons; teaches her how to do the Dracarys! command.
      • Arya’s VS dagger gets a cool name. Because “Catspaw Dagger” sounds generic and lame; or the dagger turns out to be Visenya T’s sword, Dark Sister, reforged.
      • Smirking, cackling “rockstar” Euron tries to abduct Sansa, but Arya puts a sword through his eye and out the back of his skull.
      • Melisandre tries to sneak back into the North in her old geezer form; Arya spots the ruse, says “you’re a witch and you f*cked Gendry”, and sticks her with the pointy end of Needle.

      All of this! Here’s hoping we get a scene with Arya mentoring the youngsters of Winterfell with their training in the first episode, and another minute or two, somewhere, with Arya and Gendry catching up, whilst he forges weapons of Dragon glass.

        Quote  Reply

    40. 3eyes: All of this! Here’s hoping we get a scene with Arya mentoring the youngsters of Winterfell with their training in the first episode, and another minute or two, somewhere, with Arya and Gendry catching up, whilst he forges weapons of Dragon glass.

      I hope Arya gets to prove how capable she is to Jon, The Hound, and everyone else by taking down a White Walker and his wights, effectively saving a bunch of people’s lives. Imagine the look on Jamie’s face for instance, who always just wrote her off as some little girl.

      I’m confident that the show will give us a special reunion between Arya and Jon. They know how important it is, and how powerful it is for those two characters. I’d love to see the reunion between Arya and Gendry be kind of a “WTF!?” moment for both of them. i.e. Gendry makes it back to Winterfell and walks past the courtyard where Arya is training/mentoring some youngsters and when they see each other, their jaws just hit the floor.

        Quote  Reply

    41. I pondered at length whether or not to extend an argument about this topic. But as I wrote: I think this scene presents an opportunity (whether or not it was intended to or not) to point out some preconceived notions about sexual assault which are not unusual, but they are unfortunately prevalent and at times harmful.

      Ten Bears,

      up until the leeches, he was a more than willing participant

      He is sexually aroused when he penetrated her, which is not an unusual physical response for a young lad. After all Melisandre does everything she can to make him comply. I mean, she does want to trick him, that is her intent.
      But before that imo he‘s not „more than“ willing. But even if he weren‘t just letting her do this with him, as I would describe it, and would actually participate more than to touch her once before that, it doesn‘t matter. Because of the reasons I already wrote his „consent“ is null and void. Melisandre abused her position of power over him.

      his reaction afterwards

      In regards to making out a sexual assault the reaction afterwards frankly doesn‘t matter either. What matters is the act by the perpetrator. The reaction does not disqualify the act, it would be devastating if it did. (Someone got robbed, but because the victim didn‘t complain enough, it‘s not called a robbery…?)
      I agreed with you that his character is inconsistent and it is somewhat unlikely how he reacts, but he is a fictional character after all and I agree with Jaehaerys, I don‘t think either that D&D had any statements in mind in regards to society for this scene.
      However, in real life there is also no rule of thumb for sexual assault survivors. Everyone reacts differently. There are the ones who are more resilient and then there are the ones who will show a stronger reaction or even get a mental illness from the same or similar trauma. Sometimes years pass by until survivors talk about their trauma. Just because someone isn‘t totally shattered does not mean it isn‘t rape or sexual assault.

      I will say this though: Melisandre does have a pretty compelling script prepared when it comes to achieving her malevolent objectives through “seduction” […] I compared her encounter with Gendry in S3e8 with her attempted seduction of Jon Snow in S5e4. Same modus operandi.

      Yeah, true. As I said this is called „grooming“, typical sexual perpetrator moves.

      Jaehaerys,
      zandru,

      I think there are two very different items at play here. The first being the sex act itself. […] The second is, well, the leeching. […] I really do think you have to separate these two acts in this regard.

      Gendry was very much into this…

      He was a very willing participant up until the leeches,

      It’s always good to introduce hard data into an ongoing argument.

      For the record I saw the videos for all the scenes I mentioned too while I wrote my comment. And I‘m sorry, but I already said that

      Mel was using the sex as a means (what you called item 1) to an end (item 2), getting his blood via leeching.

      So I already pointed that out and I also cleared up that this is not an argument against it being a sexual assault. To view these two parts separately does not make it not sexual assault. How is this hard data? Hard data is, that Melisandre is leading him into the bed, Melisandre uncloses his breeches, Melisandre pulls down his breeches, She positions his penis for penetration. He didn‘t do any of this. Him being aroused after that isn‘t any kind of argument for it not being sexual assault either.
      And as I said, I disagree that he was „very willing“ or „very much into this“. He was sexually aroused, but that‘s not a deciding factor for it not being a sexual assault. You are trying to make it seem ok by separating the sex act mentally from everything else. But because of that I feel like you don‘t see the big picture.
      Imagine it is an adolescent girl – which never had sex before, no experience with men – which this exact same thing happens to, she even enjoys the sex at first. Knowing the perpetrators intentions: a religious cult member (ab)using her via sex for some occult blood ritual, and you wouldn‘t call this sexual assault? No. Fucking. Way.

      Yes, he was certainly “tricked” by Mel… but not into having sex with her. She really needed no tricking for that. She did give him alcohol and seduced him, but it wasn’t all that hard (maybe two minutes worth of time?). Anyway, he didn’t need much convincing because he wanted to bang. He was down.

      That she needed to convince him at all is a dead giveaway.

      And I mean modern plastic surgery does certainly not compare to Melisandres glamour, but I take it, you would bang an old lady like Melisandre without „make-up“ as a young lad? *wink, wink* I’m joking. But jokes aside I am pretty sure Gendry would rather not.

      This is all he mentions as being traumatizing. If there was no leeching, Gendry would have no problem with it. At least that is my take on it.

      He isn‘t exactly talking to persons of trust here, the order in which it happened even is not exactly right, and what the Hound said hinted at the fact that „having sex“, even the forced kind, isn‘t something to complain about, rather the opposite.

      Gendry: „D‘know what she did to me? She strapped me down on a bed. She stripped me naked –“
      The Hound: „Sounds alright so far.“

      But even if the sex didn‘t bother him, it does not take away from the fact that she intently assaulted him through seduction to trick him and calm him down so she could drain his blood with leeches.

      This scene is definitely not the same thing as sexual abuse; but it is just as bad. I would personally compare this scene more to straight up torture […] than rape.

      I think you’d be hard pressed to call this rape. I will certainly admit that it was torture and wrong on Mel’s part, but it was not rape.

      Well, you personally would be hard pressed to call this rape, that‘s for sure. But you dismiss both, that it could be determined as sexual assault or rape? These two are not synonymous. Rape is always a sexual assault, but not every sexual assault is rape. From what you wrote I got the feeling that you have no real sense of what rape is and what it can look like, same goes for sexual assault. No offence meant.
      Sexual assault or rape aren‘t always so clear-cut. It does not always look the same, it‘s not like only when someone jumps out of the bushes and forces you physically to do sexual acts it‘s called sexual assault or rape. In reality sexual perpetrators more often use some form of „grooming“ to get their victims to comply. This makes it easier for them to get what they want, which makes it even more hideous, especially with minors. Wolfs in sheep’s clothing.

      I’ve also got to add that events in Westeros look a lot different from a 21st c “MeToo” perspective than they would in medieval times.

      Totally agree, zandru, that‘s why I think Sandors whinging comment was in-character and in-world appropriate, as was Davos attempted pep talk with Gendry directly after what happened, instead of massively insensitive in our „Time‘s up“ world.

      That said, I really appreciated that you responded and shared your opinions, even if we don’t agree on everything. And I don’t expect you to agree with me on everything. Take care!

        Quote  Reply

    42. Enharmony1625,

      Enharmony1625: I hope Arya gets to prove how capable she is to Jon, The Hound, and everyone else by taking down a White Walker and his wights, effectively saving a bunch of people’s lives. Imagine the look on Jamie’s face for instance, who always just wrote her off as some little girl.

      I’m confident that the show will give us a special reunion between Arya and Jon. They know how important it is, and how powerful it is for those two characters. I’d love to see the reunion between Arya and Gendry be kind of a “WTF!?” moment for both of them. i.e. Gendry makes it back to Winterfell and walks past the courtyard where Arya is training/mentoring some youngsters and when they see each other, their jaws just hit the floor.

      Works for me 😀

        Quote  Reply

    43. 3eyes,

      Works for me too! With one possible variation: Gendry doesn’t recognize Arya at first; because with the new warrior princess combat suit and new hairdo we saw in S7e4, she looks quite different from the ragamuffin “Arry” Gendry remembers from mid-S3. I think the last time he saw her is when she accosted Melisandre: “You’re a witch! You’re going to hurt him!”

      (S8 catch-up?)

      Arya: “What’d that witch do to you?”
      Gendry: “I’d rather not say.”
      Arya: “I’ll cut that b*tch…I mean witch,”

      I do like the scenario of Arya mentoring/training young people, impressing on them that quickness can compensate for lack of size. In fact, I’d just love for her to repeat some of Syrio’s catch phrases.

      She might tell someone: “You’re doing it all wrong.” (Gendry perks up…he’s heard that before…) “Turn your body sideface. The target is smaller.”

      Gendry: “My Lady? Is that you?”
      Arya: “I told you! Do NOT call me ‘My Lady’!”

        Quote  Reply

    44. 3eyes: Here’s hoping we get a scene with Arya mentoring the youngsters of Winterfell with their training in the first episode,

      Enharmony1625: I hope Arya gets to prove how capable she is to Jon, The Hound, and everyone else

      Ten Bears:
      I do like the scenario of Arya mentoring/training young people, impressing on them that quickness can compensate for lack of size. In fact, I’d just love for her to repeat some of Syrio’s catch phrases.

      Oh my god, me too! The other day I worked out a whole scenario in my head how Arya is so lost in training or a fight (optionally she brings about a quarrel because no one wants to train with her or never seriously because she is a lady of Winterfell and a lady, I mean female, therefore she puts on another face or just disguises herself to pick up a real fight), they end up in the courtyard, when she is finished she looks up and she looks at Jon’s traveling party which just arrived, Sansa gives her a look.
      Alternatively in a training scenario it would end in Arya giving the crowd the “There is only one god. And his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: Not today!” speech and afterwards everyone is chanting “Not today”.

      In my head it’s so badass and funny and badass…I’m bound to be disappointed, but oh well.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Cliohna: Oh my god, me too! The other day I worked out a whole scenario in my head how Arya is so lost in training or a fight (optionally she brings about a quarrel because no one wants to train with her or never seriously because she is a lady of Winterfell and a lady, I mean female, therefore she puts on another face or just disguises herself to pick up a real fight), they end up in the courtyard, when she is finished she looks up and she looks at Jon’s traveling party which just arrived, Sansa gives her a look.
      Alternatively in a training scenario it would end in Arya giving the crowd the “There is only one god. And his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: Not today!” speech and afterwards everyone is chanting “Not today”.

      In my head it’s so badass and funny and badass…I’m bound to be disappointed, but oh well.

      One big problem the show faces in dealing with Arya’s face-changing skill is that due to it being a visual medium, we as an audience very much associate Arya with Maisie. Maisie is Arya. And if the show had her constantly using faces, Maisie’s role in the show would be reduced down to cameos. I, as I’m sure many others, would absolutely hate that! Maisie does such a great job with the role that we want to see her as Arya as much as possible, and I think the show has done a good job of not overusing the faces, leaving it to certain key moments. In the books, this isn’t a problem of course.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Cliohna,

      You know, when GoT is finally over, Arya Stark/Maisie Williams is the character I’ll miss the most. Arya, along with The Hound, are such unique, irreplaceable characters.

        Quote  Reply

    47. zandru:

      Actually, letting Sandor give the response is typical of his character. He’s not about to ask for sympathy for his own past traumas, and not going to play the “sensitive guy” to anyone else’s. It wasn’t “hypocritical”; it was a valid character-revealing moment. Note also how Sandor rebuffed Tormund’s attempt to be “friendly”, and really turned on him when Tormund told him he “has sad eyes.” Sandor isn’t a man who wants to get close to anyone, or reveal himself. Not yet.

      I agree wholeheartedly with all of this, except for the last point. Sandor has wanted to get close to the Stark sisters, and in both books and show has revealed far more of himself to them than to anyone else. I think he trusts girls and women far more than he trusts men, although he probably would never admit it.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Jaehaerys:

      She did give him alcohol and seduced him, but it wasn’t all that hard (maybe two minutes worth of time?).

      Please forgive me for stumbling into this serious conversation and laughing over my Arbor gold when I read this sentence. Because it’s exactly what I’d expect from sex with a teenage boy. 😂

      In all seriousness, though: This is an excellent discussion about consent, manipulation, and spectators’ very different reactions to the same scene. Bravo to all of you for having an honest and respectful conversation about it.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Enharmony1625,

      That’s why I wrote that in ‘()’, plus ‘optionally’ and ‘or just disguises herself’. 😉 And I’m aware that fantasies in my head are not the tv-show, it’s a whole other medium. 🙂😆

        Quote  Reply

    50. Ten Bears:
      “Not today! Not today! Not today…”
      👸🏻😍

      Somehow I knew you would like that part. Glad you share my enthusiasm. 😉

      I honestly think she is my next ‘Spike’. I know these are only fictional characters and not everybodies cup o’ tea, but sometimes they can inspire some things or someone, empathy e.g. (see Gendry above).

      But maybe that’s just me.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Wolfish:
      In all seriousness, though: This is an excellent discussion about consent, manipulation, and spectators’ very different reactions to the same scene. Bravo to all of you for having an honest and respectful conversation about it.

      Appreciate your kind and validating words to everyone. ☺ And I agree. On YT I read discussions which were a whole different caliber than this and I’m glad everyone here is honest but also respectful. (Yeah, I know, I said ‘No fucking way’, but I hope everyone gets what I wanted to express, if not I’ll gladly elaborate. 😶)

        Quote  Reply

    52. Cliohna:
      Enharmony1625,

      That’s why I wrote that in ‘()’, plus ‘optionally’ and ‘or just disguises herself’. 😉 And I’m aware that fantasies in my head are not the tv-show, it’s a whole other medium. 🙂😆

      Sorry, I definitely didn’t mean that to come off as criticism. It just reminded me of thoughts I had about the challenges of dealing with the face-changing on tv. Particularly in 7×05, I remember some people wondering why Arya didn’t just use a face when spying on Littlefinger.

      And I’m definitely guilty of imagining scenes in my head as my own little fan fiction (as I’m sure many of us are). 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    53. Ten Bears:
      Cliohna,

      You know, when GoT is finally over, Arya Stark/Maisie Williams is the character I’ll miss the most. Arya, along with The Hound, are such unique, irreplaceable characters.

      Agree 100%!

        Quote  Reply

    54. Ten Bears,

      A character from Buffy, it’s ‘old’. 😬 I am not the “this is my favorite character” type, more the “I really love this character because of…” type and they stick with me, if you know what I mean. So yeah, I really love me some Spike and Arya. 😁

        Quote  Reply

    55. Ten Bears:
      Damn it. Just read that Maisie’s film “New Mutants” is being delayed from April, 2018 to February, 2019. 🙁

      The Mutants franchise is just about as played out for me as Transformers or Terminator. I don’t care what they try to do I can’t stir up much excitement. I eventually watched Logan because of the critical praise… My thoughts on it amounted to “meh.” Maisie increased my interest but it still won’t be a rush-to-see movie for me.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Clob,

      Maisie is the only reason I want to see “New Mutants.” I really enjoyed her Dr. Who episodes even though I’m not a loyal fan of that show. I liked her goofball prank video in which she tried to play “Lorraine”, a comic book store clerk. I loved her celebrity skin care infomercial spoof for a cell phone company (3Gs ?).

      With all of the nonsense I hear and read about her height, I just want her to be in demand and successful. She’s got a knack for comedy too; I’d like to see her in Isla Fisher-type rolls.

        Quote  Reply

    57. Ten Bears:
      Maisie’s movie “Departures” 🛫 still in “post-production.”

      No Maisie on screen in 2018?

      👿

      At least we get to hear her in Early Man.. I’m looking forward to that movie.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Enharmony1625,

      I don’t know what the deal is with “Mary Shelley”, starring Elle Fanning…and co-starring Maisie Williams and King Stannis – I mean Stephen Dillane. It was released in 2017; not sure about its distribution.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Ten Bears:
      Enharmony1625,

      I don’t know what the deal is with “Mary Shelley”,starring Elle Fanning…and co-starring Maisie Williams and King Stannis – I mean Stephen Dillane. It was released in 2017; not sure about its distribution.

      Huh, I haven’t heard of this movie. According to IMDB, it might be released in summer of this year.

        Quote  Reply

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