I suppose you can find a silver lining in everything, and in the case of COVID-19 shutting down large swaths of the world, it’s that A Song of Ice and Fire author George R.R. Martin is apparently spending a lot of time in Westeros — good news for those of us waiting for The Winds of Winter, perhaps?
Martin posted an update of sorts on his NotABlog on March 17, letting readers know that he’s shuttered his Meow Wolf arts and entertainment company, the Jean Cocteau Cinema, and his non-profit Stagecoach Foundation. The venues, all based in Santa Fe, New Mexico, will remain closed until April 15 as a precautionary measure.
Martin also assured readers that — despite being in the “high-risk” category for the virus, given his age — he feels fine and is taking “all sensible precautions,” including self-quarantine. So how is he spending his time? The answer is heartening (in a way) for ASOIAF readers:
“I am off by myself in a remote isolated location, attended by one of my staff, and I’m not going in to town or seeing anyone. Truth be told, I am spending more time in Westeros than in the real world, writing every day. Things are pretty grim in the Seven Kingdoms… but maybe not as grim as they may become here.”
Spending more time in Westeros than the real world, you say? WRITING EVERY DAY, YOU SAY? We’ve all been fooled before when Martin makes any indication that TWOW is being worked on, but in these uncertain times, we’ll take what we can get to lift our spirits.
Meanwhile, we found out that truly no one is safe from COVID-19, including our boisterous freefolk fav, Tormund Giantsbane. Actor Kristofer Hivju posted on Instagram on March 17 that he has, unfortunately, tested positive for the virus:
It doesn’t sound as though it’s affecting him terribly, and he only has “mild symptoms of a cold,” so here’s hoping for a speedy recovery for Hivju and his family!
That’s great to hear. He should ask Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss to help him. They can give him good advices.
This would be the perfect time for The Winds of Winter, alas, it’s not to be. I also don’t want to re-read the other volumes for fear that the series will remain unfinished. Any other suggestions?
dee,
You can read the first three books of ASOIAF. They pertain to S1-4, the time when literally everyone agrees the show was at its apex from a writing perspective, (though I love S5-8 as well). Together they represent essentially the first half of the story. George was apparently in a certain writing mindset when he wrote those three, because after he finished SoS, he was never able to write that quickly, effectively, or concisely again. Everything after SoS has been comparatively bloated, aimless, and constipated.
The LightKing,
I would actually love to see D&D team up with someone like Matthew Stover – who wrote the Revenge of the Sith novelization, widely considered among the best Star Wars books ever made – and create an official novelization of GoT S7&8. I’m about 90% sure it would be the closest thing to ADOS that book readers will ever get.
Poor Kristopher! I hope he recovers quickly without lasting issues. 🙏🏻
Happy to hear that George is writing again.
Cue fan reactions:
• “Words are wind.”
• “Oh, sweet summer child.”
The LightKing,
No.
Aodm444,
Oh yes
Aodm444,
George should’ve continued to write GoT scripts.
Perfect time to release the book George. Everyone will isolate themselves reading.
The real world GoT its own “the great other”.
How is it possible that Tormund has the virus!?
He fed on giant’s milk!
It is indeed very grim in the Seven Kingdoms…
I want to believe… but I’ve been burned too many times… 😭
😂
Iul,
The only problem is he hasn’t written it yet.
Real life sulfuric acid lake is keeping GRRM at home. I am forever the optimist, so I will stay with my 2020 Winter prediction of Dec 21, 2020 for TWOW release. Hopefully the sulfuric acid will subside by then for all of us…
Btw Adrianacandle, i only have 20 pages left to finish book 2 of HDM, so tomorrow I should be starting book 3! I am about to do some remote classes with my students before getting back to it tonight.
Sorry to be the party pooper, but whatever. He’s been “in Westeros” for god knows how long. Doesn’t really mean anything 😕
This whole thing has put a monkey wrench into my prediction that if TWOW isn’t released before kickoff of the first game of the 2020 NFL season, it never will be.
Now…who knows if and when there will be another NFL game?
Tron79,
One less excuse for the Big Kahuna.
“COVID. I fucking hate COVID.”
Be well, Kristofer, and godspeed George.
Efi,
as of ~ 3:30 pm today, 3/18/20:
“Florida coronavirus updates: Confirmed cases skyrocket to 314; South Florida continues to be epicenter.”
“The total number of confirmed COVID-19 cases in Florida jumped by almost 100 cases, up to 314, according to Wednesday’s advisory from the state Department of Health.
The number of deaths in the state remains at seven.
The largest number of cases continue to be in South Florida, with 80 in Broward, 76 in Miami-Dade and 19 in Palm Beach. Those counties account for more than 45 percent of the statewide COVID-19 cases.”
https://amp.floridatoday.com/amp/5076042002
Geez. It feels like I’m just waiting for the Doom of Old Valyria down here. 😷
Ten Bears,
“Now…who knows if and when there will be another NFL game?”
Lol, see, the universe is working for you! You’ll win your bet.
Ten Bears,
I’m sorry to see that. You’re only just beginning, I’m afraid. If Florida has high turism rates it’s likely that it’ll suffer more than other states.
In Italy it’s worse in the north, where Milan, Florence and Venice attract much more turism than Rome. (I feel for them so much; every day they are counting hundreds of deaths -close to 500 yesterday).
Here the doctors say that it’ll last for two more months, and we’ve started taking measures 20 days ago already.
One has to be patient.
(I think I’ll join my internet pilates classes tomorrow; perhaps I’ll order some books on line)
Frankly, if Martin decided to sell some of his finished chapters now, I’d buy them.
The problem with this situation is not really the virus (because I go out very conservatively); it’s not boredom (because I have too much work).
It’s that I don’t know if I have to work any harder than before or just as much as needed to only fulfill my typical obligations, since all my obligations in Paris in May might be cancelled. Why should I work more even in this situation if everything will be moved to September?
(I’m ashamed to ask my Parisian friends, honestly).
Ten Bears,
Stay safe. I live in a city that lies 15 miles northwest to the first epicenter of Covid-19 in Portugal. I’m home since saturday. Fortunately, I can work from here. Apart from people who need to leave home to work, we should do the effort of staying home to limit propagation. It can literally save lives, even if the numbers are rising. Portugal jumped to 642 cases and had its second death confirmed. It was the president of Santander bank in Portugal. As for Kristofer, I wish him a quick recovery.
I liked the statement of GRRM on this. This kind of science fiction translated to reality sucks. And continuing to pay his employees, despite the closure of the cinema and the foundation, is the right thing. I wouldn’t be too optimistic about the writing of Winds, even in this time of isolation, but remaining safe and healthy must be the priority for a person that belongs to the most vulnerable population.
The LightKing,
You must be joking.
Efi,
”You’re only just beginning, I’m afraid. If Florida has high tourism rates it’s likely that it’ll suffer more than other state.”
• Yes. F*cking tourists. Not only are there substantial segments of the population who aren’t taking this seriously, but there are thousands of idiots down here on Spring Break who are partying like they don’t have a care in the world – and very soon they’re going to return home and spread the virus there too. Meanwhile, our moron governor had not ordered beaches closed; only yesterday did he get around to shutting down bars. There are still throngs of oblivious tourists packing the streets and hotels. The whole state should be on lockdown already.
The Army of the Dead will be here within two weeks. By then it’ll be too late. (Did I mention we’ve got lots of retirees and other senior citizens?)
• I know I should remember…Where are you?
Tiago,
Thanks for the kind words.
Efi,
”Frankly, if Martin decided to sell some of his finished chapters now, I’d buy them.”
I’ve said previously that he ought to serialized chapters and release them once a week or so, like Charles Dickens did with most of his novels.
The upside is that he could satisfy the fan base who’d certainly subscribe or buy each installment as it comes out, while he wouldn’t be tempted to keep re-writing chapters or trash them all and start from scratch. The downside is that he wouldn’t be able to keep re-writing chapters or trash them all and start from scratch. 🤓
At this juncture I figure the fandom would gladly read whatever he’s written, and wouldn’t mind if he releases additional portions as they’re cranked out even if they’re not “perfect.”
Ten Bears,
Gosh, did I scare you? I meant other US states, not other countries.
However, bars, restaurants, caffees etc should stop working for about 15 or days or so (they say). I think our PM’s locking down the organized beaches is a bit too much -and inadequate, because these are few compared to the length of our shores and public beaches. We also closed the borders and everyone who’s accepted in (nationals only) are quarantined for 15 days.
But of course my rebellious compatriots moved to their villages, to enjoy an extended vacation until Easter, bringing their viruses to that part of the population that needs to be protected… We don’t need the enemy at the gates, we’ve been betrayed from within, lol.
And I know I’d buy most anything if it came out even half finished. I remembered your Dickens example when I was writing that comment. Who knew it would come to this? I tried to imagine how it would be to read sth every week, waiting for the magazine to come out, collecting and re-reading. It would be fun.
My city is empty and boring; we’re usually out until very late at night, especially when the weather gets warmer, as it is now. Spring has really set in over here -didn’t have much of a winter this year, but curiously enough we’ve had lots of snow in the mountains, so skiing centers are closed too.
As for where I am, I haven’t said. I’m close to Italy (very close).
Ten Bears,
“Geez. It feels like I’m just waiting for the Doom of Old Valyria down here.”
No, it’s not like that. The scientists are expecting a volcano to explode over here. (I’m having a hard time believing them, tbh)
You only have the virus and your lovely president. Don’t complain.
Ten Bears,
Hey, a fellow South Floridian, sweltering in paradise!
Efi,
I’d rather have the volcano.
Yeah, there has to be a real question for this season. And now I really want to see how Brady will do with Tampa Bay! And I’m from Cincinnati, and it’s likely we will pick Joe Burrow. I suppose your prediction could be right if the season is cancelled and NFL starts next year, but I’m still hoping from Dec 21 Winter is coming…
You speak of “Monkeys”. Well that shamelessly gets me back into a brief HDM comment. (Mrs. Coulter’s daemon happens to be a monkey!) The books have some similarities to GOT because they have some shocking deaths.
I think Kevin was reading the HDM books too if I remember. I remember he got all of them in one large volume.
Adrianacandle
I’ll leave it for there for now and start book 3 tomorrow. I can’t wait to see how they turn book 2 into season 2 for the screen. It’s not going to be easy!
The good news:
Spending more time in Westeros than the real world, you say? WRITING EVERY DAY, YOU SAY?
The bad news:
Taking inspiration from the COVID-19 global pandemic, he decides Westeros will suffer a greyscale plague. Luckily, this change will require rewrites only for the stories of 28 of the 32* (and counting) POV characters, and will require just one additional book** to finish the series.
—————–
* GRRM is secretly excited his readers will soon get to meet Arlyn Martell’s third cousin (twice removed) by marriage!
** Well, more like two. Or maybe four, after the two books split into their own books, like the fourth and fifth in the series. Hey, who knows? He’s a gardener!
I think I’m also infected with the Corona virus. Spoke to the doctor on the phone (we cannot go visit anymore), but here in Belgium only those who are very ill are tested. It strange how I got it because no one I know has it. So I must have got it while shopping.
When I read a book or watch a show everything is alright. But when I’m doing small things like laundry I have difficulty breathing and pain in my chest. I live alone so I have to keep doing things.
And the other problem is I can’t go shopping. And those who are healthy and can go shopping don’t find anything anymore in the shops because the lucky few who did find something are hoarding.
I’m ordering things online, but only the expensive companies still have food.
Tron79,
Yeah, I think Kevin is reading HDM but I don’t know where he is in the series. I hope he stops by this thread and offers his thoughts if he’s gotten far enough into the books.
Lee Scoresby, right? 🙁
Ooooh, that is a great takeaway, I think. I’m going to have to mull that over. Nice point.
I think that is Pullman’s view on organized religion in a nutshell, or at least Christianity (particularly Catholicism — I grew up Roman Catholic but I don’t hold strong opinions or allegiances to a certain )
You’re talking about Will’s dad, right?
And maybe, like in ASOIAF, one of these points is choice? We have free will but we are also responsible for the choices we make and the consequences of such. Both choices come with good and bad and also, perhaps the idea that good and bad mean different things to different people depending on the individual.
But maybe I’m phrasing it too simplistically…
Oh, there are some great developments with Mrs Coulter in book 3 🙂 🙂 🙂 Very excited to hear your thoughts on that!
Chilli,
Chilli, oh no. I’m so sorry. What a terrible, terrible situation. Are you still able to call an ambulance if you need to? Do you have anyone who can help you? I’m in Alberta, Canada but if you think of something I can do for you, please let me know. I can give you my contact info if you like.
*** He’s not writing TWOW at all, he’s writing Fire & Blood v. III! Psych!
😉
It’s crazy in these times where most of the Western World is either in lockdown or preparing for lockdown that one potential up tick maybe that Winds of Winter finally gets concluded. Seriously though I hope GRRM can stay safe as he’s in that age range which there is a high mortality rate if you contract it.
Also best wishes to Kristofer, this virus is nasty and hopefully he can avoid hospitalisation and recover well at home with his wife and family.
Chilli,
Oh, I hope you get better soon!
Directions for the infected:
– eat hot soups. The virus doesn’t survive over 25 degrees. Make them with lots of garlic that is antiseptic and disinfective. Add sth that has lots of vitamin C, like celery. Spices like peper and hot paprica are also antioxidant, they help. I make soups like that with a bit of potato and carot; the garlic and the spices burn the lungs and soothe the cough (!)
– drink lots of water; the virus doesn’t survive in the stomach.
– allow your fever to reach its climax once; then try to keep it down with anti-fever drugs (preferably not anti-inflammatory).
You’ll be fine in a few days.
Have you read Dunk & Egg? That’s what I’ve been doing in the long night until the eventual Winds of WInter release. The books are pretty short though and a different tone to ASOIAF.
Hi Chilli, I have a team member who lives in Mechelin just outside Brussels. If that’s anywhere near you and you require help let me know.
On a serious note it seems the virus is pretty mild for 20-30% of people who contract it and can show either no symptoms or a simple cold. About 15-20% get severe symptoms and need hospital care. The rest it’s similar to heavy flu but with breathing issues.
Adrianacandle,
Making a GOT connection to HDM…. GRRM has alot of “fakeout” deaths in the books.
Other than Ned, it’s hard to tell if someone is really dead in the books. Brienne was a good example. Even the show scene with Jaime sinking in his armor at the end of Spoils of War feels in line with GRRM. I thought it was ridiculous that he lived after sinking in all that armor and holding his breath for 10 minutes while swimming out of harms way. But it does fit with how GRRM liked to do fakeout deaths in the books. Perhaps HDM will be the same way with….
Yes, you’re right that I was angry about Will’s Dad not keeping his word to Lee. He felt his obligation to the “Great War” (keeping this thread a little about GOT!) was stronger than his word to Will, but I disagree. I think that’s part of what Pullman is saying about following what Grumman thinks his religion is saying he must do.
Lord Asriel’s blind righteousness thinking that what he’s doing is for the greater good is the kind of logic that leads to things like the killing of Roger. When in fact in the 10 commandments, you’re not supposed to take G-d’s name in vain. That’s exactly what Lord Asriel did by justifying his actions of killing Roger by thinking he knew what G-d would want him to do (or maybe it’s the other way around in this story). Thinking you know what G-d wants is something that causes so much violence and tragedy in the world. People read into the texts what they think G-d wants and justify their horrible actions. I see this theme all over HDM. Texts were written thousands of years ago, but still many take them literally or put in their own interpretations and do obviously unethical things. Thinking in the Jewish world, you can point to the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. The murderer justified his actions saying that Yitzhak Rabin was a threat to what G-d wanted because Yitzhak Rabin signed a peace agreement with the Palestinians (I wont’ go into the whole reasoning). The bottom line is that the murderer felt justified in assassinating Yitzhak Rabin because he thought he knew what G-d wanted him to do because of his interpretation of the ancient texts (can someone say Alethiometer misreadings) I taught a class called “Rock the Planet” that examined Israeli Jewish rock music and other Israeli music to discuss what was going on in Israeli society at the time. I wrote a song for the class about thinking you know what G-d wants. Yisthak Rabin was actually singing a great song about Peace at the time of the killing. The words of the song were found in his pocket covered with his own blood. The song was Shir LaShalom… Here’s the English translation:
“Let the sun rise
light up the morning
The purest of prayers
will not bring us back
He whose candle was snuffed out
and was buried in the dust
bitter crying won’t wake him up
and won’t bring him back
Nobody will bring us back
from a dead and darkened pit
here,
neither the victory cheer
nor songs of praise will help
So just sing a song for peace
don’t whisper a prayer
Just sing a song for peace
in a loud shout
Allow the sun to penetrate
through the flowers
don’t look back
let go of those departed
Lift your eyes with hope
not through the rifles’ sights
sing a song for love
and not for wars
Don’t say the day will come
bring on that day –
because it is not a dream –
and in all the city squares
cheer only for peace!”
For me, I’m not going to kill someone based on ancient texts. G-d’s going to have to come back and verify things out loud before I take horrible actions based on how others interpret an ancient text. If G-d really wants me to do it, G-d will need to tell me now. If G-d thinks it’s OK to kill Roger or separate children from their daemon souls, then G-d may need to do it G-d’s self (I’m trying not to say he or she when talking about G-d..himself or herself) The Angels are not G-d either and just because they say something doesn’t mean I would do it. In some ways John Lennon’s song Imagine may also sum up how Pullman feels about religion. Even though I am a believer in G-d, Lennon’s words ring true for those who take the texts so literally that they will kill for what they think G-d wants them to do.
In the Jewish religion we’re COMMANDED to Love G-d. That’s a tough one. How can someone command you to Love something. But in the ancient world, Love meant something different than it does now. It was more of a word about commitment than romance. But also it can be a blessing to be commanded to love G-d, since often times it easy to be angry at G-d. But still, it’s a difficult concept. I gave my students an exercise to think of themselves as Vulcan’s without emotion. How would you do the commandment to..”Love G-d with all your heart and all your soul” if you were from vulcan. Would you rephrase it?
Anyway, I think many of us know what’s right because our inner daemons help tell us. No matter what a ancient text says, our gut tells us that killing a child isn’t the right path. Lyra knew this. Our daemon tells us that keeping your word to a man who gave his life for you is the right thing to do no matter what you think might be happening in the “bigger picture” of G-d’s battle.
In Jewish lore, there is a final battle between Gog and Magog (between good and evil). The victory feast will feature eating a Leviathan sea monster. This Leviathan is often depicted as a symbol on many Jewish ornaments. The important thing to me isn’t the myth of the battle. It’s about the coming of a time of a new age when everyone lives in peace. It’s a time when people don’t read ancient texts to come up with new ways to kill each other. You don’t need borders any longer because people just get along and there is enough for everyone. Unfortunately in today’s world everyone still wants to kill everyone to fight for resources or because they think their religion tells them they are superior or the other person is an abomination. It’s really f’cked up. So, alot of Pullman’s messages do resonate with me. It will be interesting to see how it’s done on the screen.
I loved Lee’s final scene with him thinking back to playing defending the Alamo. This is going to be a great scene for the actor Lin-Manuel Miranda. It was heart breaking with his hare daemon snuggling close to him at the end. Actors are always looking for the ultimate death scene! But I’m still hoping the Witch may make it a “fakeout” death, but I’m guessing probably not.
Hopefully we get the books as soon as possible, then we can finally get a journey to the endpoints that makes sense without inconsistencies, instead of what we got with the show.
But I fear with Caronavirus, that I think will take more than a couple of weeks. That there is little chance even if he finish the book next week that the book will be published in 2020. Everything has a slower process now, shows are being pushed back, less people working, so that means that even products like books are getting delayed. And even if the books are printed we are looking at transport to the stores which also got delays. So I think if we’re lucky we get it December but I don’t think before that. I hope GRRM and the production prove me wrong, but health before everything.
And get well soon Kristofer.
Chilli,
Get well soon. Hopefully it stays mild with you. (Don’t take ibuprofen if you think it’s Covid-19. It somehow helps the virus, better use paracetamol)
I’m also getting worried a bit here, my sister is already forced to stay at home, her symptoms are much worse than a normal flue so I think it’s Covid. My mother is also forced to stay at home. And now I get also some symptoms, like headaches, tired, nauseous. But no fever or other symptoms, so I hope it’s just comes from muscle tensions in my back/ribcage.
Let’s hope we all get better soon and the world turns to normal again.
Adrianacandle,
Oh I am not yet reading the books. But they are on my book-tower (A tower of books that I want too read). First I will finish Feast and Dance. After that Fire and Blood. Then HDM is the book I’m going to read.
Jon Snowed,
The problem is not perse how worse the virus is when looking at symptoms. The problem is the dead-toll that comes with it compare to the normal flue. And that there is a high chance (compare to normal flue) of physical permanent damage. People who are healthy who had the virus return to the doctor after the flue and found out that the virus did permanent damage to the lungs. And also in the west it’s not the old but the young that seem to contract this virus more. Also a bigger problem is, because the virus is probably natural instead of man made, this virus will return every year. Meaning every year we get the influenza virus and the Covid-19. So it’s important that countries work together to find a cure or a vaccine and not trying to gain profit from it (We all know which president I’m talking about).
We don’t need to overreact as people about the virus, we don’t need to hoard things what some people did. We need to stay calm about it but we need to take the virus seriously.
Chilli, I am sorry that you are unwell – I’m laying low but that’s mainly because of my age. Likewise, I wish Kristofer well soon.
Tron, no disrespect to P Pullman but I listened to a radio adaptation of one of his stories (or at least started to) and it freaked me out so he’s on the list I don’t read (like I don’t read Dennis Wheatley’s black magic stories. The idea of curiosity and the fall being a recurring theme in works by various writers may be correct. The medieval English carol “Adam Lay Ybounden” (from the Sloane manuscript) makes an observation that it was fortunate the apple in the garden of Eden was taken because if it had not been plucked from the tree Our Lady would not have been Heaven’s Queen (the carol would have been written in a time when most people were religious)..
“Adam lay ybounden
Bounden in a bond;
Foure thousand winter
Thought he not too long
And all was for an apple
An apple that he tok
As clerkes finden
Wreten in here book
Never had the apple
The apple taken ben
Ne hadde never our lady
A ben Hevene Quen
Blessed be the time
The apple taken was
Therefore we moun singen
Deo gracias.”
Dame of Mercia,
I too wish Chilli a speedy recovery. There haven’t been as many cases in my home area, but we’re all on lockdown with extreme social distancing when in public at all.
My daughter is one who hardly goes out and has many anxieties (she’s in her mid 20’s) and now she’s holding her shirt over her mouth alot when sitting on the couch. Once things hopefully get back to normal, we may never get her out of the house out in the world after this. The good thing is that she’s used to staying home all day, but it’s adding to her anxieties in a major way.
I haven’t really thought about the idea that Eve may have made the right choice to listen to that serpent! Other ideas on Pullman’s works resonate with me more. It’s actually really struck a nerve with me which accounts for my long spoiler post earlier.
I for one will pray for healing for everyone and that we make it through these times sooner than later. The world will be forever changed because of this.
Efi,
”Directions for the infected:
– eat hot soups. The virus doesn’t survive over 25 degrees. Make them with lots of garlic that is antiseptic and disinfective. Add sth that has lots of vitamin C, like celery. Spices like peper and hot paprica are also antioxidant, they help. I make soups like that with a bit of potato and carot; the garlic and the spices burn the lungs and soothe the cough (!)”
Lady Crane?
kevin1989,
Oh, get better soon! Rest and eat the soup above! Tell your sister and your mother! There is muscle ache with the virus and also exhaustion, but I haven’t heard anything about stomach problems. If you have those the best you could eat is boiled potatoes; the warmer, the better. They soothe a bad stomach.
[also rice simply boiled but not completely dry, not without fluids. Springle it with lots of lemon; lemon kills everything]
Ten Bears,
Someone calling? Yes? Hello? 🙄
I’m an expert in that stuff because doctors never take me seriously. I almost never have fever, but I can get all the other symptoms of a flu or a virus every year. I can take pain, exhaustion, fever and other symptoms without complaining. But even with complaining without fever they never give that much attention to me.
The result is they always send me away with general directions; rest, eat sth nourishing, drink tea. Funny thing is I don’t really enjoy food (I don’t understand what all the fuss is about, it’s only for surviving), so getting sick is never an opportunity to eat what I like. But I discovered that soup which is to my liking (the garlic and hot paprika do the trick, the celery covers smell of the garlic and balances its taste) and I’m eating that whenever I am sick.
If feeling unwell a lemon and honey drink can work wonders, I would definitely recommend that!
On the symptoms I have read some people may suffer cramps, cold, fever and upset stomach (although that’s more uncommon), a dry cough is pretty much certain for most people. My daughter is unwell suffering from cramps, cold and cough, I just hope she doesn’t have it – she is currently self-isolating in her bedroom.
Jon Snowed,
Oh, I hope it doesn’t get worse. Try camomile with honey and lemon, it’s better for the throat than simple tea. (lemon dries the throat and my doctor doesn’t recommend it for coughing, but it’s anticeptic and honey soothes it, so…) I can’t even begin to imagine how is it that one isolates from the rest of the family inside the same house. Lots of gadgets all around, I guess, and a good stash of books.
Chilli,
Sorry to hear you’re not feeling well. I’m assuming you’re registered with a local doctor, so try to contact them so they can double-check your symptoms, even if it’s just over the phone. It may be Coronavirus, or it may be something completely different. But it’s best to get a professional opinion if you can.
Friendly suggestion: Arrange to phone a close friend or relative at a set time every day (or ask them to phone you daily) while you’re unwell. That way, there’s someone who can check regularly how you’re doing and keep an eye on your condition.
Efi,
Oh, I was not doubting your expertise at all. I was commending it. I was (lamely, I guess) trying to use a GoT reference.
Your description of your soup (e.g., “the garlic and the spices burn the lungs and soothe the cough (!)”) reminded me of…
Arya and Lady Crane’s soup, S6e8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h2B6roXenQ
at 5:05
dee,
If you’re looking to get your GoT-style fix while we wait for more news about the prequels, I strongly recommend Bernard Cornwell’s Warlord Chronicles trilogy. It’s a brutally realistic take on the King Arthur myth; the general vibe is similar to GoT’s earlier seasons, minus any supernatural/fantasy stuff. It’s certainly a lot grittier than people may expect, so be prepared for that.
The whole story is from a very eloquent first-person perspective. A clever twist is that while he’s a very intelligent and generally sympathetic character, sometimes he’s also the classic “unreliable narrator”; his descriptions of people’s personalities doesn’t always match their actual behaviour, especially when his perspective is distorted by his own biases or naivete. Astute readers will sometimes find themselves noticing things about characters that the narrator himself does not; Cornwell’s writing style makes it clear that this is something he’s setting up deliberately. It’s a nice touch and adds another layer of nuance to the reading experience.
Anyway, it’s a great trilogy. People here should enjoy it if they want something that has the best aspects of early GoT/ASOIAF.
Chilli,
Oh dear. Please keep us apprised. At the risk of sounding corny, lots of us (like Jon Snowed, Efi, Adrianacandle, Jai, Tron79, Kevin1989, Dame of Mercia, and others who’ve replied already) won’t hesitate to help however we can from wherever we are.
Not all heroes wear capes, or wield Valyrian Steel daggers.
Tron79,
A lot of great food-for-thought! I’m going to mull this over and respond later!
kevin1989,
Yes, your book tower! I had forgotten! At least you’ve got lots to read in this coronavirus quarantine 🙂 And I have a few recommendations… (coughWitchercough) ;D
Yup! 👍
Jai,
”If you’re looking to get your GoT-style fix while we wait for more news about the prequels, I strongly recommend Bernard Cornwell’s Warlord Chronicles trilogy. It’s a brutally realistic take on the King Arthur myth; the general vibe is similar to GoT’s earlier seasons, minus any supernatural/fantasy stuff.”
I’m still wrestling with whether to read the (incomplete) ASOIAF books, especially when I’ve had gathering dust on my shelves a whole bunch of James Clavell books I bought over 20 years ago after reading – and really enjoying – “Shogun” and “King Rat.” (Now that I’m over at my bookshelf I see more highly recommended books I’ve been intending to read for the longest time, like “Lonesome Dove” by Larry McMurtry, and “A Brief History of Time” by Stephen Hawking.)
The Samurai of medieval Japan depicted in “Shogun” might have similarities to the “general vibe” of medieval fantasy world in GoT’s earlier seasons. It’s been so long since I read “Shogun” that I really couldn’t make a fair comparison. Maybe I will read it again…
Sorry, Big G. Too many other authors who completed their books are ahead of you on my “To Read” list.
Efi,
Stomach problems I have already for months so probably nothing connected to Covid-19. What helps for me is drinking Ginger-lemon-tea. Luckily I also like the taste of it.
And thanks for the recommendation of the soup.
Adrianacandle,
Yes. And I will take my time with it. I can’t read hours like I use too. So maybe I will finish feast and dance and Winds is already in the stores.
And yes witcher books will also be on my list, but I do those after my tower I already have.
Ten Bears,
I know. Spices remind me of this dialog though (Alayne I, WoW)
“Say something, she urged herself. You will never make Ser Harry love you if you don’t have the courage to talk him. Should she tell him what a good dancer he was? No, he’s probably heard that a dozen times tonight. Besides, Petyr said that I should not seem eager. Instead she said, “I have heard that you are about to be a father.” It was not something most girls would say to their almost-betrothed, but she wanted to see if Ser Harrold would lie.
“For the second time. My daughter Alys is two years old.”
Your bastard daughter Alys, Alayne thought, but what she said was, “That one had a different mother, though.”
“Yes. Cissy was a pretty thing when I tumbled her, but childbirth left her as fat as a cow, so Lady Anya arranged for her to marry one of her men-at-arms. It is different with Saffron.”
“Saffron?” Alayne tried not to laugh. “Truly?”
Ser Harrold had the grace to blush. “Her father says she is more precious to him than gold. He’s rich, the richest man in Gulltown. A fortune in spices.”
“What will you name the babe?” she asked. “Cinnamon if she’s a girl? Cloves if he’s a boy?”
That almost made him stumble. “My lady japes.”
“Oh, no.” Petyr will howl when I tell him what I said.
“Saffron is very beautiful, I’ll have you know. Tall and slim, with big brown eyes and hair like honey.”
Alayne raised her head. “More beautiful than me?”
Ser Harrold studied her face. “You are comely enough, I grant you. When Lady Anya first told me of this match, I was afraid that you might look like your father.”
“Little pointy beard and all?” Alayne laughed.
“I never meant… “
“I hope you joust better than you talk.”
For a moment he looked shocked. But as the song was ending, he burst into a laugh. “No one told me you were clever.”
He has good teeth, she thought, straight and white. And when he smiles, he has the nicest dimples. She ran one finger down his cheek. “Should we ever wed, you’ll have to send Saffron back to her father. I’ll be all the spice you’ll want.”
He grinned. “I will hold you to that promise, my lady. Until that day, may I wear your favor in the tourney?”
“You may not. It is promised to… another.” She was not sure who as yet, but she knew she would find someone.”
kevin1989,
I have stomach problems since 2013. Maalox will ease your discomfort if you have reflux but in any case you need to check it out in case you have something more serious (that will need medication, Maalox is not exactly medicin).
You also need to follow a diet. Try dry food, no soups, no fat, no coffee/tea (but only moderately); no eggs, no chocolate, no tomatoes/red sauces. Make sure you don’t eat anything and you don’t drink tea before going to bed (I’m saying this because I know europeans love to drink tea after dinner). Milk is also heavy on the stomach.
please don´t!
i always love some good satire, and i love black humor. but not now. because there are too many people around who have lost the ability to separate information from bullshit.
even when it comes to the question “how do i chill down my body temp to 26°C?”
please, everyone, be careful with irony and satire right now! death is the enemy, and the enemy always wins.
Adrianacandle,
Thank you for your answer. At the moment I still can call an ambulance if necessary. A bit afraid it gets worse, but at this moment it’s stable. I have friends who live nearby, but the problem is that it’s contagious, so they cannot come in my house.
Efi,
Thank you for the directions. I hadn’t thought of soup, I still have that at home. The rest is a bit difficult to buy right now with the shops all empty thanks to those hoarders who buy everything the moment the shops open. But I guess that will be better after a while.
Jon Snowed,
Oh you know someone from Belgium. Mechelen is not far from where I live. At the moment I can manage on my own, but thanks for the help. At the moment it’s pretty mild for me too. Apparently in Belgium most people in hospitals are my age (around 40), in Italy it’s more older people. That’s what makes it a bit scary, but I do my best not to panic because that makes it harder to breathe.
kevin1989,
I’m gonna answer in Dutch, that’s a bit easier: Ojee, bij jullie in Nederland waarschijnlijk ook Corona? Zonder tests gaan we het nooit zeker weten, maar het positieve is zolang ze niet testen is het teken dat het niet al te erg is. Maar ondanks dat vind ik het wel enger dan de griep door die ademhalingsproblemen. Schrik dat ik op een gegeven moment niet meer kan ademen. Ik heb ook geen koorts tot nu toe. Het is vooral hoesten, ademhalingsproblemen en pijn op de borst. Hopelijk zijn we er snel terug van af, want zo verplicht thuisblijven zonder dat je veel kan doen is toch niet leuk! Veel beterschap voor jullie ook!
Dame of Mercia,
Thank you. The age thing is indeed difficult. My parents are 70-80 years old, so they cannot visit me. If they get sick, there’s always the risk they don’t survive. So I stay in quarantine.
Tron79,
Oh that must be hard for your daughter right now. I also have a friend with psychoses and I had seen right before I got ill, so she’s been panicking too right now. Hope this will all be over soon and that your daughter gets at least over her Corona anxiety.
Jai,
I did call my local doctor, but at the moment all doctors are busy, they don’t have much time for anyone. That’s the big problem with Corona that everyone is sick around the same period.
Thanks for the suggestion. I’ve told my friends I’m ill. Two of them have a key to my house, so if they don’t hear from me they can enter and check on me.
Ten Bears,
It’s stable right now. But it warms the heart to read that people across the world are concerned about me and try to help. It’s true, there are all kinds of heroes. All the doctors and nurses are heroes. They keep working while there is a chance they get ill too. And also the friends I know that offered to help and the friends I don’t know in person, who also offered to help. Thank you all so very much!
Well maybe George being stuck at home and not having other distractions is one of the few marginally positive outcomes of this horrible situation. For the record, for me this is a nightmare, I am an Italian working in China and I am reliving now through my family everything I went through myself since jan 20. Stay safe everyone☺
Dany(ela) Targaryen,
We’re reading many stories that doctors in Italy are forced to close who livre and who does as the ICU’s are overwhelmed. I hope you and your family are ok. I wish quick recoveries to the users of Wotw and their family members who are ill. We’re all in the same boat.
Thanks efi for the advice. In holland when somebody is sick most of the time people make a big pan of chicken soup for the one that is sick.
Chilli,
I agree about the nurses and doctors are heroes. And don’t forgot people working to make sure we still can get our food and other things we need.
And about your text in dutch, well I will do it also in our secret languages XD
Ja, is hier ook en best veel nog ook. Stijgt per dag aardig wat de hoeveelheid die het hebben. En dit is alleen die getest zijn, dus hoeveel daarbuiten hebben het maar zijn niet getest? En hier ook verplicht thuis blijven, nu a 4 dagen en moet zeggen, vind nu al goed zo, verveel mij nu al. Baal van verplicht thuis zitten, voel niet als vakantie.
I don’t know if it needs to be translated for the rest. If so I will do it. (don’t take it too google translate because then the translation doesn’t make sense)
Dany(ela) Targaryen,
That’s a lot to get through. First China now Italy. I hope things get well soon for you, and I hope your family is safe and well.
Actually, Rome is Italy’s most-visited city, more than Milan & Florence together. If it was related to tourism, Rome would have seen the most cases, followed by Venice and Florence, but they’re far from the top. The cities most affected by coronavirus are Bergamo and Brescia, not exactly touristic cities… not at all. Milan is the only touristic city heavily affected by coronavirus, but I strongly doubt that’s the reason…
Lombardy is basically the heart of Italy’s economy. Lombardia, Veneto and Emilia-Romagna are the most industrialized regions in Italy and they’re also the most affected, especially Lombardy which is the most industrialized and probably the region most connected to China, economically. I presume many people travelled between Wuhan and Lombady for work before Italy stopped the direct flights (but people could avoid the ban with intermediate stopovers…).
So I’m quite sure the coronavirus in Italy is not related to tourism. It has more to do with economic relations and globalization… But this doesn’t exclude it can be related to tourism in other countries, yes. I remember weeks ago, whenever a new country discovered their first cases, most of the times they were italian tourists… Sorry. 😔
death by chickenfire,
It’s no bullshit or satire with Efi’s soup, but it only works somewhat with bacterial infections, not with viral ones. Chickensoup, garlic etc is little anti-bacterial, so it can help in case of fx. cold, but SARS-CoV-2 is a virus.
In the beginning with mild symptoms it isn’t possible, to differ a cold, an influenca from Covid 19 without a test.
With (relativley) unspecific symptoms it’s no mistake to take a soup. In case of doubt at least it will fill Your stomach, feed You with wholesome food and warm Your heart.
:o)
Ser Creighton Longbough,
It doesn’t matter, Mr. Creighton.
Sooner or later… we all live in one world, the same world.
Tiago,
kevin1989,
Thank you for the kind words. I am in Shanghai and here is probably the safest place to be right now. My family lives in north east Italy, in a province that for now is not being hit too bad. Still the situation overall is tragic, I worry for my people, even the small hospital where I was born is receiving people from other regions, because it is true that the icu units are overwhelmed in some cities. Having experienced it first hand before here in China I cannot describe how I was feeling when I saw that many countries weren’t doing much about it, frustration, anger don’t even start to describe it.
On a lighter note, please allow me to give some insights on how to go through the quarantine: do your best to keep a positive attitude, group chats are great, you will improve your cooking skills and your homes will never be cleaner. And GOT marathons and re-reads are always a good idea😂
Tiago,
”We’re all in the same boat.”
Why do I feel like Mr. Magoo is at the helm of mine?
Do you have fever? Here the doctors say to worry only if your temperature is 37,5°C or higher. And yes, the other common symptom is shortness of breath.
I hope your case is like mine. 2 weeks ago I didn’t feel very well, I woke up with headache for 2 or 3 consective days and felt like I had a small fever… I measured my temperature on saturday and it was 36,9°C. So i thought: “Oh shit, did I get it?”
Even tho I must admit that my younger cat decided to sleep on my chest/belly exactly in that moment, so part of my temperature might have come from her, hehe…
Anyways, I avoided to go out that night (we still had no restrictions here), cause I didn’t want to put anybody in danger…
The day after I did my chores at home, as always, but I had the feeling my breath wasn’t as usual… So I started worrying a little more… But that evening I measured my temperature again and it was just 36,5°. I still didn’t feel very well tho, like a very light fever… But maybe it was just an impression or just the effect of my headaches and neck pain. The day after I woke up without headache and I felt good, I didn’t feel any fever… And breath as always.
So my theory is that it was nothing. Just… psychosomatic. Maybe just some headache and neck pain (and too much computer time) and my mind did the rest… It was the beginning of the pandemic and they were about to lock the country, so maybe my brain fooled me… It happens. Even if you have a rational mind.
I hope your temperature is normal and your breath too. If you don’t have fever, consider that maybe your mind is fooling you, as mine did to me… I also didn’t know anybody with that virus and the cases in my city were still a couple or so… I just got worried because I was working in a museum and people came from everywhere, Lombardy included, so my thoughts ran fast… I hope it’s your case too. I wish you the best! ❤️
Chilli,
Sending you my best wishes, Chilli! Whether it is COVID-19, or another virus or illness, I hope you feel better very very soon.
Dany(ela) Targaryen,
I am so sorry! So sorry for everything that is going on in Italy. It’s heartbreaking.
We’re close and lots of people from my country work there, and lots of doctors in your hospitals, so we know first hand the situation and every night there are different reports from them. I wish it’d stop; I wish everyone gets better quickly.
Be strong and take care of yourself.
Ser Creighton Longbough,
Right. On the other hand, the accumulated traffic in northern Italy with the museums of Florence, Milan and Venice is a hot spot for spreading the virus, since none of the churches, museus and other monuments closed when they had to, neither did the fashion shows stop at Milan. There’s a specific story about how the virus spread at Bergamo, which I do not remember now. In my country people were infected after a trip to Milan for business reasons.
Ten Bears,
Try to think positive. Maybe you, citizens of USA, are able to take him out of presidency in November, even if Mr. Magoo has his loyal fanbase. For now, limiting casualties as much as possible is the job to do. After the storm, maybe the country is ready to think about health care and a system that pledges to keep its citizens safe all the time. But I’m no expert in American politics or health care systems.
I don’t want to make this political but one thing which is obvious is that this crisis seems to be exposing charlatan politicians like Trump and Johnson. I saw in the US that Trump is now a big favourite to lose the election later this year, here in the UK meanwhile public opinion is turning on Johnson who seems to change his tone every few days on how best to deal with the virus. Notably the inaction in the UK has put us on a path to potentially be hardest hit of all European nations (our current data model suggests higher cases than Italy). Noticeably both leaders are prioritising the economy over lives and only taking action when given no other choice.
Efi,
I read an article in which an italian doctor claims the escalation of the outbreak in Bergamo was the result of a football match of the local team, Atalanta. They hosted Valencia in the round of 16 of the Champions League, in February 19th. Due to the lack of conditions of the local stadium, the game was played in Milan to 44.236 spectators. The doctor said that, as Atalanta have won 4-1, the celebrations of people sitting apart an inch form each other have favored the replication of the virus. 44.000 is a lot of people for a city with a population of 120.000, that has an airport. It also must be said that 35% of the Valencia staff tested positive.
Lombardia population density and the role of Milan as a financial, business and fashion center made the propagation easier. Here, the virus has started spreading by businessmen of the footware industry that attended a fair in Milan.
Dany(ela) Targaryen,
I hope you have contact a lot with your family through videochat. And watching some tv sounds good. I wanted to read but how I feel today, better watch some TV.
I also hope the goverment here is going to do more, I think we should at least do a lockdown for at least one week (or more) until the hospitals are back to strength. Doctors and nurses work in overtime because without the lockdown we are infecting each other more. Not that it will stop the virus but it will at least put less retrains on the people working in the healthcare sector.
Ser Creighton Longbough,
You can always have a virus/flue even without fever. I only forgot if that was a good or a bad sign. (temperature rises when the body fights back, it’s not because the virus make your body rise temperature)
But even if you have don’t have a fever, try to avoid contact with others to make sure that you carry nothing over.
Together we will get through this.
Tiago,
Let’s hope but they will see that as “socialism” or “communism”. It’s a shame that they have that “me”, “me”, “me” mentality. No working together, everyone only works for themselves. It’s a shame that that is rooted into the mindset there with many. Healthcare shouldn’t be a commercial, where prices rises sky-high. And the most ironic thing is, that system that they have the working people pay for (the one with lower wages) while in a system where the healthcare is done through taxes, that group will benefit the most, while in the US they keep on attacking that system where they would benefit the most from.
I hope Caronavirus is a wake-up call for them, but I doubt it.
Jon Snowed,
Begin of march he states the Caronavirus is nothing to worry about and it will not hit the US. Now he states he knew it was serious since the beginning of the outbreak and he is preparing (which he has not).
But Trump is not a crook, what he is, is a pathological liar. And I’m wondering why people keep on following him.
And for me it has nothing to with left/right. I mean the US has 2 rightwing parties (democrats are even more rightwing than the most rightwing party in my country the VVD). What they have is a conservative rightwing party and a progressive rightwing party. Republican are maybe a little bit more rightwing but in the end economical wise neither is left.
Tiago,
We’re already in our third week of severe measures against this thing. When the government of my country decided to cancel all meetings, congresses, social events all over the country, it was seen as too extreme, given that in Italy the situation was still manageable. A few days later, it was decided that sports games would take place without audience but hardly a day went by when they cancelled all games because players and their support teams tested positive.
I believe that apart from Italy and us, no one else had taken measures in Europe. Spain started after us, about a week-ten days, silence reigned to the North. If we have contained it, we’ll be far too lucky.
Jon Snowed,
As I saw it last night death rate is already at 2,7% in the UK (it will rise in the next days). The stubborn insistence on inactiveness is hardly understandable.
One of the doctors from my country working in the UK said that they decided at first to allow immunization and allow for the people to catch the virus for that purpose. Apparently though, the high death rate made them change their minds.
Which is… eh, if immunization worked, then why do we have vaccines? If natural immunization did the trick, there would be no motive to find vaccines for any disease. People (children and adults) would be left on their own while nature did all the work. The problem is, not all people are capable of coping with sth like that; people die because they are weaker.
In our time, we have forgotten what it means to live in the 21st century; and we don’t really appreciate that we live in the “western” world.
In the past (like 60, 80 or 100 years ago) people died like flies in winter. We have forgotten what that’s like, but it hasn’t ever, ever been the norm to die over 70 (let alone over 80) years old. It hasn’t been the norm that people with heart diseases, diabetes, asthma, and others, lived long and healthy (as much as that is possible per case) lives. Everywhere people with underlying diseases are at risk, no matter their age.
So the question is for all governments: will you take the risk to see who lives and who dies? Will you allow for the weaker to die?
Chilli,
I wish you a speedy recovery. Be mentally positive – the majority of infected individuals recover. With luck you will be one of the many.
We are all in this thing together! Jiayou (Keep strong!)!
Efi,
I was surprised when I read the plan that Boris Johnson and the British had – just do nothing and let people die, whoever lived would carry on. This is what herd immunity seems to be about – survivors of the first outbreak should be immune to the next outbreak (if there is one!). He actually addressed the nation and said many of you will die, get on with it.
What.the.hell?
As you point out, this is – why bother with any vaccine or even medicine for these types of illnesses. Just let it work its way through the population and see who makes it.
As some pointed out this plan was a version of : “Some of you will die but that is a sacrifice that I am prepared to make”.
Hmmm. I wonder why.
kevin1989,
Q: Who said it better: Beric Dondarrion (to Thoros) … or this bird?
https://mobile.twitter.com/kvedegas/status/1226280500475682817/photo/1
Ten Bears,
hahahhahhahhahhahhhaaaaa!

Ten Bears,
Re: 12:22 pm comment.
Sorry. Please click on top image in linked series above for full photo with “the bird.”
Ten Bears,
That is even funniier…………hahhahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHhhhahhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Mango,
“I was surprised when I read the plan that Boris Johnson and the British had – just do nothing and let people die, whoever lived would carry on.
This is what herd immunity seems to be about – survivors of the first outbreak should be immune to the next outbreak (if there is one!). He actually addressed the nation and said many of you will die, get on with it.
…..
Just let it work its way through the population and see who makes it.
As some pointed out this plan was a version of : “Some of you will die but that is a sacrifice that I am prepared to make”.
————
To me, this plan could also be a version of:
LC Mango: “Men, women, and children will die by the thousands if we do nothing.”
Boris: “Let them die. We’ve got ourselves to worry about. Less sacrifices for the rest of us.
Stannis: “Fewer”
Davos: “What?”
Stannis: “Nothing.”
Mango,
I haven’t even read the books, and I roared when I read that caption to the image: “Are you my mother?” (I was familiar with that Beric-Thoros passage from the books.)
kevin1989,
USA is an enormous country with more than 320 million people, I think. Surely, many americans are open for a discussion about an universal health care system (that could work state by state, for example). I don’t believe all US citizens rely on a “me, me, me” mindset, but striving for success through individual effort is certainly an american trademark, at least as the country is viewed outside. And that doesn’t have to be bad. Lool at the quantity of cultural and entertainment work the US produces for the rest of the world to enjoy. It’s tremendous.
However, America has its flaws in my point of view. The lack of a system able to provide the most essential health care to all its people, as soon as they need to, is one of them.
However, this pandemic is bringing doubts about some things that many of us took for granted. Covid-19 won’t kill as much people as the Spanish flu 100 years ago, but human rights, which includes life and dignity, are much more valued. Ir remains to be seen how humanity will be changed by this event.
Efi,
”….If natural immunization did the trick, there would be no motive to find vaccines for any disease. People (children and adults) would be left on their own while nature did all the work. The problem is, not all people are capable of coping with sth like that; people die because they are weaker.
In our time, we have forgotten what it means to live in the 21st century; and we don’t really appreciate that we live in the “western” world.
In the past (like 60, 80 or 100 years ago) people died like flies in winter.
…….
So the question is for all governments: will you take the risk to see who lives and who dies? Will you allow for the weaker to die?
————-
[My last GoT reference… for now]:
About letting “the weak” perish, and how people used to die like flies in winter, the question for for governments is:
Like the misanthropic version of Sandor Clegane, will you adopt a survival of the fittest attitude to thin the herd, deprive the needy of sustenance, and see who lives and who dies?
Will you simply allow for the weaker to die?
Or will you embrace an egalitarian, Arya-like, compassionate approach?
(S4e3, Sandor, Arya, Rabbit Stew Sally and her father)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AXZi0mdAbM
at 5:41
Arya: “What did you do!
***
He took us in. He fed us!”
Sandor: “Aye. He took us in. He’s a good man. His daughter makes nice stew. And they’ll both be dead come winter.”
Arya: “You don’t know that!”
Sandor: “I do know it. He’s weak. He can’t protect himself. They’ll both be dead come winter. Dead men don’t need silver.”
Arya: “You’re the Worst Sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms!”
Ten Bears,
– “What do dragons eat, anyway?”
– “Whatever they want”.
Stark sisters forever, lol.
Ten Bears,
Seriously, that scene made my stomach turn; but if Paris gets cancelled in the end I might engage myself in a marathon re-watch of GoT.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. I don’t have to watch season 8; I’ll stop at the end of 6 and then I’ll make my own fanfiction.
Tiago,
Amen.
You’re right when you say that many Americans are open to a universal health care system, and that you ”don’t believe all US citizens rely on a “me, me, me” mindset.”
The problem is bulls*it propaganda that has too many people believing a universal health care system would be prohibitively expensive, and “we can’t pay for that.”
And unfortunately, there are some ultra-rich selfish pr*cks and their bought-off politicians who, under the guise of faux patriotism, advance an “anti-socialism” agenda that really translates to (in the words of Pink Floyd):
“I’m alright Jack
Keep your hands off my stack.”
On the subject of whether to recommend GoT to friends, I’ve said in the past (with considerable pushback from the “Mr. B & Mr. W can do no wrong“ faction) that S6 ended on such a high note for so many story lines that it could constitute a logical stopping point.
Ten Bears:
I’m still wrestling with whether to read the (incomplete) ASOIAF books,
I’ll give you much the same advice one my acquaintances, a Dean who is also a former Professor of Medieval Literature, did: the first three books are well worth it, but the fourth and fifth are a slog. I would add the prologue and epilogue of the fourth book are very well-written. Unfortunately, the sub-plot they invoke was not included by D&D, so no part of those two scenes made it onto the screen. (You can read that prologue as a stand-alone short story; it’s one of the best tavern scenes I’ve ever read.)
Another note: the books are very dark when compared to the television series; D&D simply had to “clean up” some of GRRM’s work, which is very faithful to the callous brutality of the Dark Ages. For example, it’s broadly hinted Baelish procures boys for high-value clients. However, other characters fare better: Jon Snow is a scheming, snarky politician; Tyrion is (to quote his creator) “the grayest of the gray” in morality, and Sam Tarly masterfully manipulates the Nights’ Watch into electing Jon their new Lord Commander.
Anyway, if you do take the plunge, I hope you enjoy the books (well, the first three, anyway) as much as have I.
Efi,
”Seriously, that scene [in S4e3] made my stomach turn…”
Mine too. The Hound really deserved Arya’s opprobrium when she yelled at him, calling him “the Worst Sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms.”
However, to the show’s credit, it did portray Sandor’s remorse for his past sins (e.g., in S6e7) and his guilt for what he’d done to the farmer and his daughter (in S7e1).
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
From: Ten Bears, Whose Words Carry the Same Iron of Life…and Death
I appreciate the advice.
I’d been considering reading what Tron79 and I have referred to as “the Boiled ASNAWP” version of ASOIAF, i.e., only Arya chapters. I did read the TWOW “Mercy” sample chapter that GRRM had posted on his website and really liked it. I thought it was beautifully written. Also, I read two other passages quoted online: Internet surveys asked book readers to cite their favorite scenes. Two common responses were: Arya’s “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile” internal monologue on the Braavos docks [wordlessly and wonderfully acted by Maisie Williams in S5], and Arya’s “Harwin, you have to know me!” scene with the BwoB [which didn’t make it into the TV adaptation]. I admit I’m biased because from the outset of GoT I was impressed by the character of Arya, and the gifted child actress who portrayed her.
So, I take it you feel that even if GRRM never writes another word, the first three books are still worth the investment of time, and the fourth and fifth books are a “take it or leave it” proposition.
You called those last two books a slog. Lots of book readers have used words like “bloated” and “meandering” to describe those two books. Are there any story lines or chapters that stood out as exceptional?
Now that it’s looking like I’m going to be cooped up at home for the next month or longer, perhaps I ought to put Books 1-3 on my “To Read” list….
If you’re okay with the possibility of the books never being finished but feel a compulsion to read them, I’d say go for it! You can draw your own conclusions about differences between the books and the show, the situations, characterizations, etc.
Or if you just want to read Arya chapters, I’d suggest getting the eBooks and in addition to her chapters, doing searches for her names and aliases to read whenever she’s mentioned in other chapters 😉
For the most part, I found the broad strokes between most of the main characters to be about the same — except maybe for Tyrion in book 5. He does go quite dark in book 5. Jon is certainly smarter (but not smart enough to avoid getting shanked), Sam is able to come up with a scheme where Jon is elected Lord Commander (as Tensor said) to prevent the possibility of Janos Slynt getting elected when support is divided between two other candidates (Cotter Pyke and Denys Mallister), and you can get inside these characters’ heads, see their memories, their thoughts, their inner monologues.
But I do find parts of the book drag a bit when GRRM introduces a character and goes on for several pages… and then we never see that character again. And the new POVs in latter books. Admittedly, I didn’t love those because I was already so invested in many different existing characters that I felt like my room for engagement was limited 🙂
But I find the looks into these characters’ heads worth the read. Some great stuff in their thoughts, memories, inner monologues, and inner struggles.
Tron79,
Still thinking on your post! Part of the problem is that I possess no expertise in religion so I’m afraid of saying something wrong and I think some of these concepts require some deep thought from me. I want to be careful! 🙂
Here’s an informative article, in narrative form, about the symptoms and progression of viral infection.
Caution! ⚠️ Some parts are … unsettling.
NY Magazine 3/18/18
“How the Coronavirus Could Take Over Your Body (Before You Ever Feel It)”
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html
Adrianacandle,
So…I’m interpreting your comments to be an endorsement of Books 1-3. That settles it. I’m going to order them from Amazon, and decide whether to continue on with Books 4 & 5 after I’m done.
Ten Bears,
*When I said, “Sam is able to come up with a scheme where Jon is elected Lord Commander (as Tensor said) to prevent the possibility of Janos Slynt getting elected when support is divided between two other candidates (Cotter Pyke and Denys Mallister),” I should probably mention that Jon was unaware of this scheme. Still, Sam’s actions here may likely have prevented a Night’s Watch under Janos Slynt and that’s probably a good thing 🙂
Though the situation at the end of book 5 at Castle Black isn’t… great…
I like that idea!
Hopefully, when you reach the point of deciding whether or not to continue with book 4 or 5, we’ll have more news about TWOW but 80% of me is expecting an announcement for a new ASOIAF history book rather than TWOW if there is an announcement at all…
And on that note, time to go house hunting. Coronavirus hasn’t stopped the search for a (preferably concrete) condo just yet…!
Efi,
They try that also here, I hope they stop that way of dealing with it. For the reasons you state and also it puts more restrains on the doctors and nurses. I hope they announce full lockdown except for important things like food.
But still I have high respect for my countries goverment, the minister of healthcare even collapsed because he worked too hard on the crisis. He stopped because of it and somebody else takes over.
Ten Bears,
hahahahahaha thanks for the laugh.
Tiago,
Oh I don’t wanted to sound that every american is like that, if that’s how it was perceived I am sorry for it. But even if you’re country is about i”striving for success through individual effort” it could also be done with universal healthcare, it’s in the end cheaper for the people who work. My country has a “working”-mentality. You work for success, but we don’t forgot about thinks like healthcare in our country. It could be done both. And I hope in the end the US get’s there.
Ten Bears,
This is what I mean. The propaganda. And that it’s too expensive. In the end it’s cheaper and cost less for the citizens. It’s like what do you want to pay: 100 dollars extra in tax or 200 dollars in healthcare cost per month. Universal healthcare can help lower the cost of the system. They do it in the EU where pharma can only ask a max on a certain medicine. And profit should be used for research.
Adrianacandle,
“And on that note, time to go house hunting. Coronavirus hasn’t stopped the search for a (preferably concrete) condo just yet…!
If you must go out….
Please keep your distance from people, wear latex gloves, wash your hands before and after you touch anything, and do NOT go into elevators unless they’re empty. (I would have suggested holding your breath in elevators to avoid breathing in residual mists; that’s probably unrealistic if you’re looking for a unit in a high rise building.)
Absolutely! Thanks for the tips! Got my hand sanitizer with me too 🙂 Thankfully, the units I’m looking at are in low-rise, walk-up building with only four floors.
Ten Bears,
I will be the one that would say, the complains about Feast and Dance are overrated. I would even say that boiled leathers (the combined version of Feast and Dance) is better than the first 2 books. Not better than the third. Those 2 books are a bit of the beginning of the puzzle of the endgame. Things are set into motion for the endgame that are written the beginning of the puzzle. (like for instance you get a scene of Children of the forest in Kings Landing and I think most reader would have missed it).
Also the argument about bloated and expending of storylines is also not valid. In the first 3 books all those new storylines are hinted that they were coming, and once they arrives people felled that martin expended his story too much and that wasn’t his first plan. Well it was, he only didn’t know how to implement these storylines yet.
I would say read the books if you could stand that the saga is maybe unfinished. You will like the first 3 books, and with the fourth of fifth, it depends. You either going to love it, or going to hate it. But the way you felled about later seasons of GoT I think it would upgrade your experience of those books. It’s like you see these storylines of the show that she show messed up, written into a much better way, and the storylines making more sense in the books and not contrived like some storylines in the books, also they are really part of the story instead of: boxes to check off.
ps. Not saying that people who dislike the books were wrong. Just that I personally like them, and I like the mysteries in those 2 books better.
Ten Bears,
The season 6 finale is my favorite episode, and I agree it has many high quality moments, but I can’t say it’s a natural stopping point. So many things still needed to be resolved.
To Anyone Who Has Movie Recommendations
I’m thinking that with much of the world on lockdown for the foreseeable future, many of us are soon going to be looking for movies to watch at home – in addition to or instead of what’s available on cable. (I only have HBO and the selection is…quite limited.)
I’ve been offering recommendations to friends of mine who are accustomed to spending most of their waking hours at their workplaces, and need diversions now that they’ll be home-bound.
I’ve also been asking family and friends to exchange with me lists of our respective:
• Top Ten Favorite Movies of All Time; and
• Top Ten Guilty Pleasure Movies; and
• Top Five Overlooked Gems; and
• Top Five Favorite “Half Movies”*; and
• Unforgettable Performances in Otherwise Forgettable Movies
* By “Half-Movie” I mean a movie in which some of the characters and storylines were really enjoyable, while others were not. For example, in “Crazy Stupid Love” I liked the scenes with Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling, and some with Annaleigh Tipton. The rest of the movie … not so much.
A better example is “The Notebook.” I liked the portion with movie
Rachel McAdams and Ryan Gosling. The other half with James Garner and Gena Rowlands … not so much.
🎥 Anybody want to play along???? 🎥
Young Dragon,
You’re right. I’m not suggesting there weren’t things left to be resolved as of the end of S6. I was referring to a hypothetical question whether I’d recommend GoT to someone who’d never seen it. My answer was a qualified yes: I have no doubt that person would enjoy the first six seasons in general, and the high points of S6e10 in particular, eg, Jon Snow’s coronation, Dany setting sail with her fleet & wavetop-skimming dragons, Cersei blowing up her antagonists and ascending the Iron Throne, and of course, our little murder teen back from vacation, paying old Walder a visit…
I’d want to alert a potential viewer that there was divisiveness among the fandom when it came to the last two seasons. (I’d also probably give a heads up that some aspects of S5 were controversial.)
Don’t worry. We’re just sharing opinions on relevant issues at the moment. And I agree with your views on health care: the social benefit of paying taxes for is higher than the cost of the sum of money you can’t spend. The fun thing about this is that I’m not american nor I’ve ever been in US. I’m an european like you, from northern Portugal.
Ten Bears,
I want to play!
I’m more into series than movies because I can spend more time with a multi-part series or TV show than a movie (I have some recommendations there!) but off the top of my head (well, I spent the past several hours thinking about this), the following are all stand-alone movies I earnestly love. I don’t know if they’re guilty pleasures, overlooked gems, or whatnot… and it is an eclectic mix! But I love them all! 🙂
I tried but I wasn’t able to figure out any kind of categories for them. It totally depends on how I feel from minute to minute.
Heathers
Edward Scissorhands
A League of Their Own
Donnie Darko
Clueless
Mean Girls
My Fair Lady
To Kill A Mockingbird
Anne of Green Gables (*1985* version, not the 2017 series! Oh man… there is a scene in this movie I only have to think about and I cry. I deeply, deeply love this movie and have all of my life! I think this might count as an Overlooked Gem for me)
The Secret Garden
A Little Princess
The Little Prince
Prince of Egypt (animation. This might be an odd choice but amazing soundtrack, great animation, great story, great voice acting)
And there are probably more! But these were the ones I managed to come up with over the past several hours!
Now, as for the best BAD movie ever…
The Room.
Always The Room.
Adrianacandle,
I forgot Pan’s Labyrinth and Labyrinth!!
I think Labyrinth might be a guilty pleasure because my blood starts to heat up… three guesses why 😉
Adrianacandle,
– Clueless ✅ Always worth a rewatch
– Anne of Green Gables (1985):
Now on my To Watch List (and I’m sure I’ll cry
when I get to whatever scene you’re referring to)
– A Little Princess (we’ve talked about this?):
Davos: “Sarah!” 😥
– Wait… What’s a “best BAD movie”? (The Room?)
Ten Bears,
If you have trouble finding it, let me know! I can hook you up! 😉
It’s shot on location in Prince Edward Island and Ontario, Megan Follows is the definitive Anne, lovely soundtrack — it’s a great adaptation 🙂
I must have watched that scene to death! When I was a kid, my dad got so sick of this movie because it was practically on repeat. Ditto The Little Mermaid.
So bad that it’s good! It’s… surreal.
But even more than that, the making of this film is an even better story (one of the actors in The Room, Greg Sestaro, wrote a book on the making of The Room and The Room’s writer/creator, Tommy Wiseau. It’s downright strange and fascinating. So many questions. This book was turned into a movie itself entitled The Disaster Artist).
Several celebrities have enjoyed this movie too in the so-bad-it’s-good way. I was introduced to the movie via word of mouth from a friend telling me to watch Nostalgia Critic’s review of this movie and I highly recommend it. It’s a great way to get familiar with The Room without having to watch the whole movie. I don’t think you’ll believe how this movie is real and what’s more — it’s earnest. It’s not satire. It’s… yeah. It’s strange and hilarious.
The Room is now shown around the world as midnight audience participate viewings ala Rocky Horror Picture Show.
It’s a fun rabbit hole to go down! 🙂
EDIT: Started rewatching Nostalgia Critic’s The Room review and I can’t believe I forgot — Back to the Future! I LOVE those movies! I’d like to add those to my list…? 😀
Adrianacandle,
I listened to (some) of ‘Anne of Green Gables’ as a radio adaptation on BBC Radio4 Extra and I thought the part where the kids confused the raspberry wine for a raspberry soft drink was hilarious. I’m not familiar with any of the AoGG sequels. I’ve been looking on YouTube to see if I could find uploads of series/serials from when I was even younger than I am now but it seems that some of the old BBC ones weren’t saved. There was a very small audio clip of ‘Man of Straw’ with Derek Jacobi in an early(ish) TV role but as someone on IMDB observed the opportunity to see a star in the making had disappeared. It was an English adaptation of ‘Der Untertan’ by Heinrich Mann with DJ as the unpleasant main character. I wanted to see if I thought it (and other series I liked when they were first aired) had stood the test of time. I don’t know why the BBC didn’t archive some of their series in days gone by – I’ve heard an argument that the British actors’ union Equity didn’t want too many repeats of series in case it cut down on opportunities for its members. But then the 1960s BBC version of ‘The Forsyte Saga’ can be found online – bits of it anyway. Things have changed now – The BBC factor out their drama now (since Maggie Thatcher’s days as PM) and there are no end of BBC repeats.
Ten Bears,
The books are an intricate embroidery. If you read carefully, by the end of ADWD all the pieces are set in position for a full fledged confrontation to start everywhere, north, south, east immediately with the first chapter of the next book. WoW will be very dark and chaotic and shocking and I can’t wait for it to come out.
A small example: Jamie ordered the prisoners of the Freys to be taken to KL. It’s a very small detail, but among them is an Umber who witnessed Robb’s will. Chances are that they’ll head north though because LSH has plans for the Freys.
The structure of ASoIaF is such that you can very easily read Arya’s chapters first. When you finish them, you might choose another character you like, e.g. Jon, or Jamie or Daenerys. You may fill the blanks via the show, at least to a point.
If you like reading, Martin’s language is a good one, easy, descriptive, and meaningful. Every word counts for something, it was chosen to tell you something. His descriptions are wonderful and vivid and the dialogs are carefully structured for giving something that is of significance for the overall story; they might look as if it’s small talk at first, but they’re not.
Arya’s chapters are… simply wow! Some of the best.
Ten Bears,
Gosh, my favorites are already very old. See, random order:
As good as it gets. (Good old Jack Nicholson, Helen Hunt)
Enemy at the Gates (Jude Law, Ed Harris)
Shakespeare in love (Joseph Fiennes, Gwynneth Paltrow)
Elizabeth (unbelievable Cate Blanchet)
The English patient (Ralph Fiennes, Juliette Binoche)
Lanthimos movies: Lobster (one of my very favorites in the past few years, a dark allegory on human relations, Colin Farrell, Rachel Weisz); also The Favorite; and The killing of the sacred deer. While you might always like to see Colin Farrell and Nicole Kidman, this last one is… I don’t know, I didn’t get the point (but Lanthimos has the capacity to draw you in even if you resist).
Also, The Hours I believe is one of the best movies of Nicole Kidman.
Pan’s Labyrinth is an unbelievable movie; it should have gotten the Oscar instead of The Shape of Water.
I also like Pedro Almodovar very much. Try Los ambrazos rotos (with Penelope Cruz) and Talk to her. Still older but very enjoyable is Tacones lejanos, with some great music to go with it.
Also, I like Christopher Nolan a lot. I’d suggest his Batman trilogy, but I don’t like the first movie too much; The Dark Knight and Batman rises are far better.
Lastly, I don’t like thrillers, like, not at all, because they’re predictable and I tend to laugh nervously whenever I should be scared.
But, The Sixth Sense is perhaps the best imho. I didn’t see it coming, no I didn’t!
“I see dead people”
“Ok. You might want to talk to Jon Snow.”
LOL.
Efi,
Ten Bears,
Top 10 Movies of All Time
Ranking as of my mood today (can change the order daily)
1) Alice in Wonderland (2010, Tim Burton director)
Stars Mia Wasikowska with a great performance. This has many parallels to Arya’s quest of self discovery). Amazing score by Danny Elfman. Amazing “look”. Memorable performance by Johnny Depp as The Hatter. And much more. Love it, love it, love it…
(I watched the sequel “Through the Looking Glass” yesterday. It has it’s moments, but a totally different feel and wouldn’t get into my top 50)
2) Grosse Pointe Blank
I may have to watch this today!! John Cusack is wonderful as the hitman in love attending his high school reunion. Great performances by Dan Aykroyd, Minnie Driver, Alan Arkin, Jeremy Piven, and John Cusack’s sister Joan Cusack. Also a great soundtrack!
3) Star Trek IV The Voyage Home
The band’s back together in the funniest and the best Star Trek move of the original cast. Follow Kirk and crew going back in time to bring back Hump Back whales to save humanity.
4) Kick Ass (not the sequel, but I still watch the sequel sometimes)
I’m not sure why I like this movie so much. Probably it has to do with the scenes with Nicolas Cage and his on screen daughter Chloë Grace Moretz as Big Daddy and Hit Girl.
5) Me and Earl and the Dying Girl.
best in this genre and very original. .
6) My Name is Emily
I think I’ve written about this one before in another post. This can be my number one in some weeks depending on my mood. (starring Evanna Lynch of Harry Potter fame)
7) Doc Hollywood
Probably my favorite feel good movie with Michael J. Fox, Julie Warner, and others…
8) Little Miss Sunshine
9) Hereafter
Matt Damon movie that gripped me. I’ve watched it probably 5 times.
10) Gold
This is one of Maisie William’s early movies. I really liked this one with Maisie getting reacquainted with her bio dad. Her step dad is a hoot. Maisie has an excellent performance. I’ve watched this 3 times I think. Also look for Maisie in another early movie “Heat stroke” in more of a stressful going to die any minute movie… But Gold is fun and heartfelt.
Those are the first 10 that came to mind today! It can change daily.
Dame of Mercia,
I love that part! It’s one of my top scenes! I think two other of my top scenes include:
When Anne wants to introduce herself as Cordelia:
When she smashes her slate over Gilbert’s head for teasing her about her red hair (which, for all those unfamiliar with Anne of Green Gables, Anne is initially very touchy about, calling it her “life long sorrow”)… and then, for three years, she reigns as the Queen of Grudges when she refuses to forgive Gilbert about it for three years XD
I think I’ve got the BBC radio reading of Anne but I’m not certain. If I find it, I can put it on Dropbox for you! 🙂
Efi,
Tron79,
Dammit! I should have included notes with my list like you both did! I’m so lazy…
(Tron: I also enjoy Alice in Wonderland and Danny Elfman’s scores. He did an incredible score for Edward Scissorhands. I think Ice Dance is my favourite, especially when it’s combined with the finale track *__*)
(Efi: I’m glad to see another rec for Pan’s Labyrinth! It also has an amazing soundtrack. I too enjoyed Enemy at the Gate and Sixth Sense! When I saw it in theatres, I remember my stepfather jumping out of his seat at one point XD)
Adrianacandle,
It’s been a long time since I’ve seen Edward Scissorhands. I’ll watch again soon. I love Danny Elfman’s work.
Ten Bears,
Ooh, me! 😄
1. Pan’s Labyrinth (yup, my #1…surprised and very glad to see other people loving on it! 🙂)
2. WALL-E
3. Arsenic and Old Lace
4. The Princess Bride
5. Call Me By Your Name ❤
6. Tropic Thunder 🤪
7. The Others
8. Lock, Stock, and 2 Smoking Barrells
9. Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang
10. To Kill A Mockingbird
There are just so many though. Any well done horror movie…one of my goals in life is to find a movie that genuinely scares the bejesus outta me. Hee. And I’ll watch anything with Viggo Mortensen, Daniel Craig, or Rachel Weisz.
Adrianacandle,
Pan’s Labyrinth was such an amazing film! I was prepared for a fairy tale or sth, and yet it was totally unexpected and somehow Del Torro made me feel like I was out of breath throughout the film. I should watch it again, come to think about it, and compare it to The Shape of Water.
But of the others, I’d say that As good as it gets was the best. A light comedy where humanity is manifested where you don’t expect it. No matter how many times I watch it, I still laugh the same and the ending leaves me satisfied and hopeful each time. Perhaps the world isn’t such a cruel place after all.
But I swear next time I’ll hear a man repeating “you make wanna be a better man” I’ll do what Anne did to Gilbert in the quote above.
Seriously? Get your own lines, guys. Be original.
[thank god the “Jack I’m flying” line doesn’t come as often]
Pigeon,
Yeeeees! Daniel Craig in Casino Royale is veeeeery good. Rachel Weisz was one of my favorites ever since I saw her for the first time ages ago (I think in the Mummy), I don’t know why. She has a magnetizing quality when she appears on screen without being flashy at all; she’s so normal and yet so perfect.
So, add to the list: The Constant Gardener, with Ralf Fiennes and Rachel Weisz.
[I also adore Daniel Craig, especially since I learned they were married, hehehe]
Pigeon,
Oooh. I’m going to have to check out Pan’s Labyrinth.
I’m not in the mood to read yet today, and the synopsis looks really interesting…
Here are my favorite GOT actor movies that pop into my head first…
I admit I haven’t seen all of their movies, so these are based on what I’ve actually watched!
Kit: Testament of Youth (he looks so young without the beard. This is a great role for him)
Maisie: Gold (as I mentioned before), iBoy , The Falling (bizarre but good performance)
Emilia: Me Before You (I liked it…I haven’t seen all of her other movies)
Peter Dinklage: The Station Agent (loved it loved it loved it!!)
NCW: The Shot Caller (I really liked him in this movie)
Aidan Gillen: Bohemian Rhapsody (a slimy character again!)
Pedro Pascal: Prospect (Sophie Thatcher (not Sophie Turner!) as Cee was excellent as another young tough girl character who starred with Pedro. This has some vague similarities to the Hound and Arya journey but on another planet. Sophie Thatcher would have been great in GOT as some character that GRRM could have dreamed up for her.
Bingeable TV Shows I liked with GOT folks:
Deep State: Joe Dempsey (he is still not a big talker! but I got into this one)
Bodyguard: Richard Madden “Yes Mum”
That’s all for now. I know there are a ton of movies and TV from GOT actors. I haven’t nearly watched them all. I enjoyed all of these.
Efi,
Daniel Craig + Rooney Mara in (vastly underrated) The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Their scenes together were 🔥
Pigeon,
Viggo M: “A History of Violence.” His best film, in my opinion.
Ten Bears,
I know, but I’ve seen (over and over) the original trilogy in Swedish. The English-speaking one is a good adaptation and closer to my models (visually) since I’m bombed with american films since birth like the rest of the planet, but the Swedish is European and therefore more down to earth. I recommend the second and third one strongly but I have to caution you for the amount of violence, which is over the top.
I have not seen a lot of Viggo – but he was excellent in this one.
In solidarity with Italy, let me add two oldies – Cinema Paradiso and The Leopard to this list of movies.
I first saw Daniel Craig in Layer Cake, and was like “Whoooooo is thaaaaaaat????” Lol. He’s also the only Bond that I care for (didn’t really get into the previous ones, although I like Sean Connery and Timothy Dalton. I like Pierce Brosnan as an actor but his Bond movies were some of the worst.)
The Constant Gardener is such a good movie. I really like Ralph Fiennes. Rachel has such a quiet, sad beauty. Loved the Mummy movies (well, 1 and 2). I almost included them in my picks.
It’s a gorgeous movie (as most of Guillermo’s are – even the not particularly successful Crimson Peak was a masterpiece in visuals), and at the same time leaving you feeling completely punched in the gut (as most of Guillermo’s do, lol. Hello Devil’s Backbone and The Orphanage.) The young actress who plays Ofelia was incredible.
More people need to see this movie, he is just so good!!!
I’d put it at #1 as well, although Eastern Promises was also a very strong candidate.
I will always have a particularly soft place in my heart for Viggo, as he is a true gentleman and took a moment during an insanely busy time in his life (when the first LOTR was about to blew up) to communicate with a Canadian girl who at the time was simply an admirer of his artwork and didn’t have a clue that he was Aragorn. 🤦♀️😆❤📃
• “Pan’s Labyrinth.” Yes. So beautifully made – and so powerful how the girl passes the test at the end. Guillermo del Torro’s fantasy creatures are amazing. I’ve often wondered what he would’ve done with GoT’s CotF. WWs, dragons, ice spiders… not to mention grumpkins (?) and snarks.
I also liked del Torro’s “Hellboy” and “Pacific Rim” – though both may fall in the Guilty Pleasure category.
• I’ve never seen “Labyrinth,” which you say may be a Guilty Pleasure.
However, I take it that your blood temperature rises watching that movie because…David Bowie.
Which provides a segue to one of my Guilty Pleasure movies: “Bandslam” (2009).
Per Wikipedia: “In a brief cameo, this was David Bowie’s final film appearance before his death in 2016.”
***
Plot: “Will Burton is a music enthusiast and a David Bowie fan. Throughout the movie, Will writes journal-like e-mails to Bowie every day, although Bowie never answers.
***
Bowie has a vital role as Will Burton’s idol, to whom Burton frequently writes e-mails. He makes a short cameo in the end of the film.”
“Bandslam” is a battle-of-the-bands, Pitch Perfect kind of movie. Admittedly, my “blood starts to heat up” because: Vanessa Hudgens. She’s really good in this.
So is another actress, Aly Michalka (spelling?), who’s singing in the clip below:
Ten Bears,
Here’s sort of a spoiler-free intro to “Bandslam” featuring Vanessa Hudgens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMnWBohZ9VY
———
Pigeon,
Side note: Ever since my three brothers and I watched “A History of Violence” we’ve incorporated into our lexicon William Hurt’s incredulous line, “How do you f*ck that up? HOW do you f*ck THAT up!” any time one of us screws up a ridiculously simple task.
(Fun fact: William Hurt got a Best Supporting Actor Oscar nomination for this one scene in the movie.)
—————
From “A History of Violence” (2005):
William Hurt as mob boss who shoots his own henchman for botching a hit:
“How do you fuck that up? HOW do you fuck THAT up!” (Shoots)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgjaeHGi9IA
——-
Longer version: Spoiler Warning ⚠️
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA11gnz9eBA
—
Awww. Nice story about your encounter with Viggo Mortensen!
It’s hard to think quickly on my top ten. I’m not the most knowledgeable person there is about cinema. I didn’t watch many of the films stated above . Still, there are movies that I liked very much or that kept me thinking about them after I’ve watched them.
– LOTR trilogy (with The Fellowship of the Ring above the other two): I saw it when I was about 15 years old and I loved the adaptation of this simple, but epic tale. It made me play LOTR-related videogames and read part of Tolkien’s work. It will always have a special place in my heart.
– Good will hunting: I liked the dynamic of Robin Williams and Matt Damon together.
– Alien and Blade Runner: visually, these Ridley Scott’s films are mesmerizing. And the suspense is very well done in this blurred duality between mankind and the beings which they fight. Even if the plot runs kind of slow in both films, they made me think about what it means to be human.
– I agree with Efi on the Batman Trilogy.
– At last, I leave here a film that puzzled me more than made me feel good: Mulholland Drive. I would be dishonest if I said this is my favourite movie, because it’s hard to understand it all on the first time you watch it. And yet it is an intense watching experience. Dream or reality or both, it is a grotesque and eerie piece, with surrealistic tones, but the tragedy of it is still palpable in the very end. Naomi Watts and Laura Herring are great leads.
Indira Varma (Ellaria Sand) is also fighting against Covid-19, she confirmed on her last Instagram post.
Wish Kristofer and her a fast recovery.
nicnavfer,
May she recovers fast!
Tron79,
Re: “GoT Actor Movies”:
I’ve raved* about this movie before: “Hear My Song” (1991), with Tara Fitzgerald (GoT’s Baratheon) in her first film. The movie is hard to find. There are only one or two clips on YouTube. (I’d provide a link to the trailer, except that unfortunately it kind of gives away the whole movie. 🤬)
You also mentioned “Gold” (2014) starring Maisie Williams. I have not seen it, though I understand that the actor James Nesbitt played the role of “Frank.” James Nesbitt also co-starred in “Hear My Song” in what I believe was his first film role.
* “Hear My Song” is in my Top Ten Favorite Movies of All Time.
Tron79,
🗡👸🏻
Maisie Williams News
http://www.playbill.com/article/hampstead-theatre-offers-free-recording-of-i-and-you-starring-game-of-thrones-maisie-williams
March 20, 2020
“Hampstead Theatre Offers Free Recording of I and You, Starring Game of Thrones’ Maisie Williams”
Lauren Gunderson’s play will soon be available to watch on Instagram.
A full recording of Lauren Gunderson’s I and You at London’s Hampstead Theatre, starring Game of Thrones Emmy nominee Maisie Williams and Zach Wyatt, will be available to watch for free beginning March 23 at 6 AM ET. The stream will be available until March 29 at 6 PM ET on Hampstead’s (@hampstead_theatre) and Gunderson’s (@lalatellsastory) Instagrams.
The Hampstead production was specifically performed, filmed, and edited for Instagram’s mobile video platform IGTV during its run at the theatre October 18–November 24, 2018, and was previously broadcast for free later that year.
“We at Hampstead Theatre are watching these unprecedented events unfold and wondering what we can do to help,” said Hampstead Artistic Director Roxana Silbert. “We are an industry that seeks to bring people together and tell stories that resonate. I hope this particularly tender and funny story offers some much-needed entertainment and connection right now.”
The Edward Hall-directed production features sets and costumes by Michael Pavelka, lighting by Matt Haskins, sound by Paul Groothuis, music by Simon Slater, and casting by Anna Cooper.
——
Note: I thought this performance was already available on YouTube.
You have to see GOLD!!! Maisie is great and it’s a funny and touching movie. Her step dad is hysterical as her running coach trying to make it big selling his motivational system, and her lovable but loser bio dad drives around in an old car with a couch on the top… Maisie is wonderful. It’s definitely worth finding it.
I’ll look for Hear My Song! I watched Pan’s Labyrinth today. Thanks everyone for the tip!!! I also finally watched the finale of GOT today on my season 8 DVD. I had watched the other episodes but not the finale. I won’t get everyone started again on whinging!! I will just say that Tyrion….. NO I WON’T SAY ANYTHING and get people started again…
Edit: Yes I’ve watched the finale several times, but just not on the DVD….until today.
Tron79
Do!! I think it still plays really well! I think Elfman scores most of Burton’s movies, hey? He always does such a fantastic job.
Efi,
Me too! The end guts me and gives me hope at the same time XD!
And that soundtrack. So haunting.
I’ll put As Good As It Gets on my own list! I don’t think I’ve seen it.
Growing up, I did always enjoy a good Sandra Bullock and/or Hugh Grant romcom ;D (Two Weeks Notice, Miss Congeniality) and I have a huge guilty pleasure for the Pitch Perfect movies.
Ooooh! Sister Act!! That’s another guilty pleasure!!
*slate drop!!*
Pigeon,
Princess Bride! Wall-E!! How could I forget those? 😭
Oh, and The Last Unicorn! How could I forget that??
Ten Bears,
Oh god, yes. I mean, the Palm Eyeball monster [shudder]. God knows what his ice spiders would look like. 😨
Will add those!
Yes.
I do recommend Labyrinth. It’s a very creative movie — and it has muppets, great music, interesting design, costumes ,and makeup (there is a scene in the movie that Nostalgia Critic insightfully describes as ‘girl porn’ — it features a princessed-up Jennifer Connelly dressed in this white ballgown with huge puffed sleeves and sparkly hair ornaments dancing with David Bowie 🤩🤩🤩🤩), I find it a lot of fun! It is a kids’ movie but it’s a little bit on the maybe-darker side of kids’ movies (although I don’t think it can get any darker than Return to Oz, which still haunts me to this day. Dad went for the really creepy kids movies and I almost think that 80s kids’ movies had a mandate to scar kids. The Witches. The Secret of Nihm. Dark Crystal. Labyrinth. Watership Down. Neverending Story. Return to Oz. Return to Oz. Return to Oz… Even The Last Unicorn. Just…)
Thanks for the clip! And Bandslam added! I loved the Pitch Perfect movies… ;;
I’ve lost two comments to the ether – on an online board before Boris Johnson became Prime Minister in the UK someone American observed he (Bo-Jo) looked a bit like the Donald (there was some reference to POTUS upthread).
Somebody had mentioned the ‘first two’ Mummy films earlier on this thread. Would that be the 1999 reboot? There have been so many mummy films over the years https://moviesorder.com/the-mummy/ – the 1959 version with Christopher Lee, Peter Cushing and Yvonne Furneaux was entertaining albeit it may seem a bit cheesy to younger viewers raised on modern CGI.
Ten Bears,
I had thought Vanessa Hudgens might have suited as Princess Arianne in GoT but she was one of the characters cut in adaptation.
Regarding what I mentioned upthread about BBC deleting some of their series in former days I am still able to find versions of the 1967 “Forsyte Saga” on YouTube. There are even some (excerpts only unfortunately) clips of “An Age of Kings” which was basically the same idea as “The Hollow Crown” only dating from 1961. I think I fancied Robert Hardy (Prince Hal) in a celebrity crush way when I was 11/12. There are also supposed to be Patrick Stewart and Sean Connery in supporting parts though I’ve never been able to notice them.
I’m sorry that Indira Varma is ill – well the theatres in the UK are being closed temporarily in the Covid-19 crisis anyway
Adrianacandle,
”Growing up, I did always enjoy a good Sandra Bullock and/or Hugh Grant romcom ;D (Two Weeks Notice, Miss Congeniality) and I have a huge guilty pleasure for the Pitch Perfect movies.””
Hugh Grant romcom? I assume you’ve seen “About a Boy,” which has:
• GoT connection with Natalia Tena (Osha)
• Rachel Weisz
• Young Nicholas Hoult (the “Boy”)
Adrianacandle,
First of all, I don’t really believe you haven’t seen As good as it gets, but it’s already an old film (1997) and perhaps that’s the reason.
It’s a film of many oscars, perhaps because it’s not just a romantic comedy, there’s a human story in there (Helen Hunt is a woman with serious problems and no time for romance and games until Jack Nicholson decides he can’t afford her not serving him in his favorite diner; he will go out of his way for pleasing himself and in this process he becomes “better” by helping her). You should definitely put it in your list. (you’re gonna love the dog).
I love Hugh Grant. He was at his peak when I was in my twenties. My top films with him:
– Notting Hill (gosh, what a movie!)
– Love actually (also veeeeery nice)
– Mickey blue eyes (it’s really funny)
And of course there’s the Bridget Jones’ Diaries; having all my adult favorites together in these movies is awesome. And Two weeks notice, and About a boy.
Hugh Grant also had a surprising role in Cloud Atlas (which I am the only one I know who actually liked that movie); not a romance but ending on a high optimistic note.
And if you want to see him in something totally different but still deeply romantic I’d suggest Florence Foster Jenkins with Meryl Streep.
But. Top. of. the. top. romantic comedies, still unsurpassed:
– Sleepless in Seattle
– You’ve got mail.
Did I mention I adore Tom Hanks?
Dame of Mercia,
”I’ve lost two comments to the ether.”
Did you burn something and offer a prayer to the Lord of Light before pressing “Post Comment”?
(Just kidding…)
Are you familiar with an actresses, Shirley Anne Field? Apparently she was big in the U.K., though relatively unknown here in the U.S.
I ask because she co-starred in “Hear My Song.” She was delightful. She plays “Kathleen,” the mother of Tara Fitzgerald’s character, “Nancy.”
[Each has a scene in which another character serenades her by name: Frank Sinatra’s song “Nancy with the Laughing Face,” and then a Josef Locke song, “I’ll Take You Home Again, Kathleen.”]
More on that movie in a few minutes…
Ten Bears,
Really???? Time to go on a YouTube hunt!
By the time I saw About A Boy, I had seen Toni Collette in United States of Tara, which also features Brie Larson, who was in yet another favourite of mine, Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World, which stars Michael Cera, who was amazing in Juno, another movie I love.
I should have thought my list through better…
Efi,
Admittedly, at that time, I was a tween and wasn’t really drawn to As Good As It Gets’s synopsis :/ Let’s see… in 1997, I was pretty entrenched in the worlds of Sailor Moon, Harry Potter, Buffy, Spice World… I confess that based on the synopsis and genre (which I know don’t tend to do many movies justice), I didn’t seek the movie out later, unfortunately.
Usually, romance movies that I’ve seen and liked from that time were because I happened upon them while my parents or aunts/uncles were watching them. And if I liked them, I’d rewatch them a few times 🙂 My dad is the one who is more into romance (he’s a Love Actually fan, so I’ve seen that thanks to him!) while my mum likes them but her favourites are A League of Their Own (which stars Tom Hanks!), Fried Green Tomatoes, and Joy Luck Club — all movies I really love too.
A romance movie that I sought out on my own was For Keeps because when I was in college, I discovered John Hughes movies, really liked them, so I looked up a few Molly Ringwald films 🙂
However, I’m not the biggest Renee Zellweger fan so I haven’t seen the Bridget Jones’ Diary movies but I thought she was good in White Oleander (I love that movie too) and Chicago 🙂
The Jack Nicholson movie I did seek out was One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, which I loved! And I was able to relate to ;D But yes, I’m going to give As Good As It Gets a try! I looked up a few clips on YouTube and saw that it has Julie Benz, who was Dexter’s girlfriend and played Darla in Buffy and Angel!
I did love About A Boy! That’s a movie I discovered while going through my dad’s DVD library later to collect a few movies to watch while I did projects for school.
I vaguely remember Notting Hill — but not well so I’ll give that one a rewatch when I’m hunting for something to watch while I do a project!
I haven’t seen Sleepless in Seattle but now I have ‘When I Fall In Love’ stuck in my head 😉 That is a song that evokes strong nostalgia. However, it’s a nice change because for about a week and a half, I had ‘I Wanna Dance With Somebody’ as the earworm in my head X_X Great song but… earworms…
I haven’t seen Mickey Blue Eyes, or Cloud Atlas, but I’ve seen You’ve Got Mail and I remember liking it! I also really love Tom Hanks.
Thanks for the suggestions! Your mention of Meryl Streep made me think of Kramer vs. Kramer and Devil Wears Prada — two great great movies!!
Efi,
”…I love Hugh Grant. He was at his peak when I was in my twenties. My top films with him:
– Notting Hill (gosh, what a movie!)
– Love actually (also veeeeery nice)
– Mickey blue eyes (it’s really funny)
And of course there’s the Bridget Jones’ Diaries; having all my adult favorites together in these movies is awesome. And Two weeks notice, and About a Boy.
Hugh Grant also had a surprising role in Cloud Atlas (which I am the only one I know who actually liked that movie); not a romance but ending on a high optimistic note.”
——-
• You’re not the only one who liked “Cloud Atlas.” It was daring, and there were so many interconnected plots and players throughout the many shifting timelines that I could understand why some viewers felt it was disjointed. I got confused at first. And it took getting used to the actors playing different roles, different ethnicities and even different genders in the various timelines. I got a case of sensory overload the first time around.
However, on a second and third viewing I really liked it. Hugh Grant was great in his multiple roles – especially as the savage warrior leader.
Tom Hanks was really good in all of his multiple roles – especially those in the early timelines in which he went against type and played not-so-noble characters.
Also, while you’re right that “Cloud Atlas” wasn’t a romance, I thought it was a nice touch that in two of the timelines in which Tom Hanks did play “good” characters, he had a romance with Halle Berry’s character: After their first budding romance was abruptly terminated (he was a whistleblower assassinated by bad guys), they “reunited” again in a future timeline that did end on “an optimistic note.” [Grandpa Tom ❤️ Grandma Halle].
And let’s not forget GoT’s Maester Ebrose himself, Jim Broadbent.
• I enjoyed “Notting Hill” and it’s always good on rewatch.
Plus it’s got Tim McInnerney (spelling?), GoT’s Lord Glover. (The show’s character I most love to hate.)
• Have you seen the 1995 Hugh Grant movie, “The Englishman Who Went Up a Hill But Came Down a Mountain”? Tara Fitzgerald (Selyse) co-starred in that too.
Efi,
I’ve replied! But my response has been withheld for moderation 🙁
If you want to check back for it later, it should appear under my March 22, 2020 8:31 am reply to Ten Bears!
I add yet more movies to my list of faves…
Adrianacandle,
Yes! “Juno”!!! 💖
If that’s not in my Top Ten of All Time, it’s one of the runners-up. Ellen Page was fabulous. So were J.K. Simmons as her loving dad, and Allison Janney as her stepmom. Great script by Diablo Cody too. (I think she won the Oscar for Best Original Screenplay.)
Have you ever seen Ellen Page in the thriller/psychological drama “Hard Candy” (2005)? She was…extraordinary. I’d say she was br*ll***t, if that word wasn’t prohibited here. 😎
Just the way she delivered the line: “Play time…is over.” was…chilling.
There were shades of Arya
in her performance.
Here’s a summary of “Hard Candy” I cut and pasted from the internet, spoiler-coded for anyone who hasn’t seen it.
Description:
This description doesn’t really do justice to the film, which I watched after Roger Ebert gave the movie – and Ellen Page‘s performance in particular – a glowing review.
100% to everything! And yes, Hard Candy is excellent. That deserves a rewatch. I’d second a recommendation for this!
(In addition to loving Juno for the movie itself, I also love the soundtrack of that movie too — I just love soundtracks…)
I need to save this thread for whenever I’m in the, “There’s nothing good on Netflex…” mood 😉
Adrianacandle,
For anyone who’s interested, here’s an excerpt of Roger Ebert’s print review of “Hard Candy.” (I could not find a video clip from Siskel & Ebert that convinced me to watch this movie.)
Ebert:
Now commences an extraordinary acting performance by both actors, especially Ellen Page. Although she plays 14, I understand she was 17 when she made it; to involve a 14-year-old in this material would be wrong. As an actress, Page makes Hayley into a calm, methodical, intelligent girl who announces she is going to castrate Jeff. She has medical textbooks, instructions from the Web, scalpels, antiseptic, and he should look on the bright side: He’ll only have to go through this once.
Before she carries out her threat, however, she plays mind games with him. She has followed him into other chat rooms, she says. She suspects he may have been implicated in the death of a young person. She explores his home and finds his stash of porno. He begs for mercy. She lets him beg.
How it all turns out you will have to discover for yourself.”
Adrianacandle,
”In addition to loving Juno for the movie itself, I also love the soundtrack of that movie too — I just love soundtracks…)”
Soundtracks? Then please stand by for my follow up comments about “Hear My Song.”
Adrianacandle,
Here’s Natalia Tena in “About a Boy”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOCd1HQ8vr0
——
Efi,
”But. Top. of. the. top. romantic comedies, still unsurpassed:
– Sleepless in Seattle
– You’ve got mail.”
——-
What about Meg Ryan in “When Harry Met Sally”?
Still unsurpassed….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNEX0fbGePg
————
Tron79,
Adrianacandle,
I found a link (below) to the entire, full length video of “Hear My Song.” (1 hour, 40 minutes)
Caveat⚠️: I’d suggest watching it soon if you’re interested. This link should be considered time-sensitive: A few months ago a link to the full movie was posted, and was taken down soon thereafter.
In addition, the linked video below appears to be the UK version of the movie. It contains a roughly three minute, black & white prologue (of the main character, “Mickey,” as a boy) that was excised from the U.S. version. That deletion is understandable: I’m not sure the prologue added much to the movie.
Note: “Hear My Song” won “Best Comedy” at the British Comedy Awards. It was nominated for BAFTAs for Best Original Screenplay and Best Original Score.
Cast: Adrian Dunbar; Tara Fitzgerald; William Hootkins; Joseph Nesbitt; Shirley Anne Field;
Ned Beatty; David McCallum
——————
Hear My Song (1991)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO4rjO4Vl-g
Tara Fitzgerald (Selyse Baratheon on Game of Thrones) plays “Nancy” in Hear My Song. She first
appears at 3:55. Nancy is serenaded by Mickey at 7:00 – 8:29.
Ten Bears,
Thanks! (And for all the other clips too!) I’ll look for something to extract that video in case it’s taken down (thanks for the warning!)
I’ll reply in more detail later! Hoping to get a bunch of lasering done today (using proper safety precautions to prevent catching/spreading) while conditions at the space are good and in case we’re confined to our houses by mandate so I can do some work at home.
Ten Bears</s
Ten Bears, I thought I had copied your question about Shirley-Ann Field but no luck. In the last few weeks I've dropped my laptop twice and one of the plastic stands holding the screen has broken. I might be able to do some remedial work with super glue but haven't tried yet. Yes, I have heard of Ms Field. She's been in films which featured some well-known British names. When she was an ingenue she played opposite Albert Finney (in his first, well certainly one of his first, starring role(s) in a fil called 'Saturday Night and Sunday Morning' and later was in 'My Beautiful Launderette' which featured one of Daniel Day Lewis's (Lewis' ?) early appearances on film. I heard her give an interview during the 1980s and she had auditioned for (but lost out to Stephanie Beacham) for a part in 'The Colbys' – an offshoot from 'Dynasty'. I didn't like 'The Colbys' very much even though it featured some good actors. S-AF's real name was Shirley Broomfield (or Bloomfield?) and she was brought up for some of her young years in an orphanage. She thought her mother was dead for a long time but with the vicissitudes in World War II her mother had married again and gone to live in the States. When she came back looking for her English daughter at first S-AF didn't want to meet her but her (S-AF's) daughter said something about never having had a grandmother and wanting her mother to meet the grandma. S-AF said she had three half-sisters who speak with a southern American accent.
Ten Bears,
You called those last two books a slog. Lots of book readers have used words like “bloated” and “meandering” to describe those two books. Are there any story lines or chapters that stood out as exceptional?
You can read the prologue and epilogue of Book 4 as a complete short* story. They introduce two plot lines which were left out of the television adaptation:
2. The Maesters have a plan to remove magic from the world.
Book 4 also has the “Broken Man” speech. This speech is surrounded by lots of world-building filler as the speaker, Septon Meribald, his dog (named “Dog”) and Brienne wander about the Riverlands, which have been devastated by the War of the Five Kings.
Septon Meribald travels the countryside, dispensing ecclesiastical services to the small folk. With Brienne in tow, he eventually returns to his sanctuary on the Quiet Isle, run by another religious figure, Elder Brother. (These two characters were combined into the one character whose portrayal Ian McShane slept through during his one-episode wonder on Game of Thrones.) Another inhabitant of the Quiet Isle is their gravedigger (they have many corpses to bury after the war). You see him only from a distance, but he seems to be a large fellow with many wounds…
Also during Brienne’s travels, you get to see (from her POV) Lord Randyll Tarly rebuilding the ruined town of Maidenpool and dispensing his tough justice to the inhabitants. He is revealed to be a rigorously fair, if unimaginative, upholder of the feudal order. He lectures Brienne on the dangers of what she is doing, but as she has a letter of safe-conduct from the King, Lord Tarly cannot remand her to her father on Tarth.
Those were the good parts of Book 4, IMHO. As Kevin1989 shows, YMMV. Either way, please have a great literary journey!
————
* By the standards of GRRM in A Song Of Ice and Fire
one of his earlier movies is one of my favorites: “The Reflecting Skin”. just mindblowing and hereby recommended to anyone.
actually, i have to think hard to find a movie with him that sucked. he can not save any crappy movie, but his acting even carried a dumb story like “Hidalgo” over the line between dipshit and entertainment.
also, “Alatriste” is a pretty underrated spanish production featuring him as lead.
i´` ll play the game, of course. here are my recommendations / favorites, completely unsorted:
1) The Crazy Family
it´ s about lockdown so it´ s in pole position here.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087377/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
2) Badland
don’t watch this after or before your Covid news update. this movie is absolutely heartbreaking in the worst meaning of heartbreaking.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0493395/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_10
3) The Fox and the Child
positively heartbreaking. just effing wonderful. narrated by Kate Winslet.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0756648/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_5
4) A Man Called Horse
simply the best western movie of all times, end of. this trailer is completely in english. still, i prefer the lakota / english version provided on dvd. 30 more watchings, and i’m fluent in lakota.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066049/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_6
5) Crash / Magnolia / Babel
three excellent movies following the same concept. because i cannot make up my mind, i list all three of them. for the case you haven’t seen any of them, i leave you with IMDB, trailers and the order to effing see them all.
Crash
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0375679/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Magnolia
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0175880/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
Babel
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0449467/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
6) Princess Mononoke
this anime has been mentioned here many times. for good reasons…
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119698/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
instead of a trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f53ZCld72FI
7) Frozen River
Melissa Leo can bomb any screen into molecules, easily. here, she does so, definitely.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0978759/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
8) Apocalypto
we all know Mel Gibson is sort of nuts. still, this here is a masterpiece other directors can just try to stretch to. i really mean “masterpiece”.
spoiler: youtube clip contains Ramsay references.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472043/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
as the name Mel Gibson is written all over it, this masterpiece (i stand by my word) has some… well… flaws? still, it’s nice entertainment and has made it cross the line i mentioned in the beginning.
9) Iris
Judy Dench. Kate Winslet. Vinnie Jones. and it´’s the Vinnie Jones scene which will finally make you cry. believe me!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280778/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_6
10) On The Beach
when i watched it on german TV in something 1983, at the peak of the cold war, it made me sick. so sick that i had to vomit before going to bed. therefore, it’s at least an excellent movie. beyond this, it might be one of the most important movies of all times.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053137/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
these are my ten+ answers to your challenge. sorry for all the 400+ movies that didn’t make it onto this list.
btw, when i called “on the beach” somewhat important, disturbing or whatever: the nymag-link you provided surely out-disturbs the movie. any movies.
Pigeon,
Recommendation for a nice distracting movie with good performances all around. (Maybe not in my All-Time Top Ten; excellent nonetheless.)
Silver Linings Playbook (2012) – Comedy*/Drama
Cast: Jennifer Lawrence (Best Actress Oscar); Bradley Cooper; Robert DeNiro; Jacki Weaver; Chris Tucker; Julia Stiles. Director: David O. Russell
* A “comedy” based on managing mental illness. Go figure.
———
Favorite scene [Spoiler warning]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og36vWGn5CU
—-
Dame of Mercia,
I didn’t realise my post upthread (most recent one was all emboldened – put it down to me having problems with my laptop).
To those asking about the books, I was one of those who found AFFC and ADWD something of a long and winding road. That’s not to say I hated them and I keep meaning to try the tandem read to see if I like that version better. Really, it’s hard to say to someone that they absolutely should read the books or conversely that they shouldn’t touch them with a barge-pole. I HADN’T foreseen Dany going full metal Targaryen (though I had been aware she had a temper and by ADWD I had reservations about book Dany) and as I think that plot point comes from GRRM I’ll give him credit for surprising me. Anyone wondering about the books could give the first one a try and if they like what they read carry on, if it’s not their cup of tea and they prefer a dramatized version, well they can stop reading. I wouldn’t say people shouldn’t read the books because some folk like myself have reservations about books 4 and 5 – another reader might like them, we are all different.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
– Hey, thanks for the commentary about Book 4. I appreciate it.
– You wrote that if “also has the “Broken Man” speech. This speech is surrounded by lots of world-building filler as the speaker, Septon Meribald, his dog (named “Dog”) and Brienne wander about the Riverlands, which have been devastated by the War of the Five Kings.”
The “Broken Man” speech was another one of the handful of passages I read, since it was quoted so often on fan sites.
I thought it was a br*****nt piece of writing by GRRM. I was disappointed that S6e7, titled “The Broken Man,” didn’t even try to adapt the speech from the books. I thought Brother Ray’s speech scripted for the show didn’t capture the message of the book’s speech*, and didn’t come close to the richness of GRRM’s writing.
I still wonder why the showrunners didn’t use the speech from the book and thought it was a good idea to write their own version.
* In fact, I thought the S7e1 scene of Arya with the friendly Lannister soldiers came closer to capturing the tenor of the book’s “Broken Man” speech, e.g., the homesick soldiers missing their families, and lamenting how boys are often forced to leave home to “fight someone else’s wars.”
Dame of Mercia,
”To those asking about the books…”
– That would be me. 🤓
”…I was one of those who found AFFC and ADWD something of a long and winding road. That’s not to say I hated them and I keep meaning to try the tandem read to see if I like that version better. Really, it’s hard to say to someone that they absolutely should read the books or conversely that they shouldn’t touch them with a barge-pole.”
– Well that settles it. I’m going to order the first three books, and read them at some point during the approaching Long Night. I’ll hold off on books 4 and 5, unless I decide to fillet them to extract Arya chapters to read. (Since I read, and really enjoyed, the TWOW “Mercy” sample chapter, I’d like to know more about Arya’s Braavos/HoB&W storyline in the books.)
Lasering? I’m jealous. 🤢
Yes, I think you would enjoy your “Boiled Chicken” journey of reading the last two books.
I watched Gold again today. It was a little hard to find. It was on Google Play! It was also on some obscure Amazon Prime channel called “Fandor” that I got the 7 day free trial, and I watched it that way today.
We just got a “shelter in place” order in Ohio, so I will have lots more time to watch things, and I’ll probably dig into the last HDM book “The Amber Spyglass”. It’s the longest of the three at almost 500 pages. I feel like that’s nothing now after making it through all of the 1000 page ASOIAF books!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2020/03/19/emilia-clarke-didnt-like-the-game-of-thrones-ending-either/#421a470c39d1
Oh, but I guess are only Reddit trolls who shit on the series ending.
Tron79,
As long as you’re “sheltering in place” indefinitely, you might want to watch “Hear My Song” while the link [above] is still active. If nothing else, you can see a young and adorable Selyse Baratheon (Tara Fitzgerald) looking like Audrey Hepburn.
Cool. I will do that…
death by chickenfire,
I just saw your comment. I think it was held up for a bit because of the multiple links. Thanks…I’ll go back and check out your recommendations – and the embedded clips.
Re: Viggo Mortensen – I have not seen [the recent movie] “Green Book” yet. He was supposed to be really good in it. Do you know anything about it?
death by chickenfire,
• Good choices! Some I’ve seen; others I haven’t, and I’ll add them to my “To Watch” list. Unfortunately, I have a feeling the “stay home” mandate is going to last months, not weeks. 🥵
• However, I beg to differ on your assessment:
”4) A Man Called Horse
simply the best western movie of all time…”
“The Outlaw Josey Wales” holds that distinction – in my opinion, of course.
Sorry for late reactions, I was really ill (even without fever) last days. Finally feeling a bit better now.
Tiago,
Hope everything is fine in Portagal at the moment.
And to say about healthcare, I’m happy healthcare in our country is pretty greatly handled, I never need to worry about healthcare, only when it comes to some things that aren’t in basic package like physiotherapy or glasses.
Tiago,
I like that you named Lord of the rings triology first. It’s my favorite movie (I see them as one big movie of 12 hours) ever made.
I also love the Dark Knight trilogy. 3 great movies. Same as other Nolan movies like Interstellar.
I will try to think about movies later on
Tron79,
“I watched Gold again today. It was a little hard to find. It was on Google Play! It was also on some obscure Amazon Prime channel called “Fandor” that I got the 7 day free trial, and I watched it that way today.”
• You know, all of these streaming services and platforms should get together and figure out how to make all of their shows available to everybody. I don’t want to have to sign up for Amazon Prime, Hulu, Netflix, CBS All Access, Disney+, Google Play, Sky TV, Apple Meets Godzilla, etc. etc. – even if it’s just for a “free trial.”
At this juncture, with everybody stuck indoors, we should all be able to watch whatever we want and pay into a central billing system.
• For that matter, movie studios should release movies online or on cable, instead of postponing release dates indefinitely until movie theaters re-open.
F*ck it. I admit it: I’m passed off that after finally getting a release date (4/3/20), Maisie’s movie “New Mutants” has now been delayed indefinitely.
Seriously though, I’d pay good money to see Arya kill Joffrey with a chicken bone … I mean, to see “New Mutants” at home.
The studios have a captive audience. I’m surprised they haven’t yet adapted to the new reality.
And Viggo adopted the horse, so it wasn’t all bad. 🤪
Apocalyptico was a fantastic movie, and I’m not a Mel fan. Rudy Youngblood did a fantastic job – the running scene had ME about to collapse, lol. And using the Mayan language was something.
Vinnie Jones is one of those vastly underrated actors (and also makes beautiful furniture!). I love him in Mean Machine, Lock Stock, etc. I had no idea he was in Iris.
I loved Silver Linings Playbook! Book and movie (I’m a fan of Bradley and Jennifer, they work really well together.)
Ten Bears,
I’m exited to know your reading journey once you start reading. And if you like the first 3 books I would just do the Boiled Leathers (or one of the other combined versions of Feast and Dance), you had some issues with some parts of the show that I think you may like the book version better (or not).
As for movies I don’t really have a top10 movies I like but for me Lord of the Rings remains nr 1 of all the movies I watched, I watched them many times (Can’t count that on my fingers and toes how many times).
I also like the Dark Knight trilogy and the Harry Potter saga.
Other movies I think are great: Interstellar: great story and the father/daughter story hits hard (emotionally), brilliantly done.
Green Mile: The characters are great in this story and also very emotional movie.
I liked the godfather trilogy even when somehow I forgot a lot about those movies. But I still remember the ending of the last movie that stayed with me. Maybe even going to watch those movies again.
Logan: Even when I found x-men trilogy mediocre (still love to watch them) this movie had a great character driven story. It had a great father/daughter storyline.
But I’m more of a series-guy. Like AdriannaCandle stated you can live more with the characters.
But with tv-series in a lockdown like these I rather watch a nice comedy show instead of a serious show with that I like the following:
– The Office (US)
– Parks and Recreation
– Seinfeld
– Golden Girls
– Brooklyn 99
– Community
I like more but these are my favorites.
Ivan,
She never said she didn’t like it. All she said was “Jon got away with murder”. That article is false.
Yeah I would pay for the Arya vs. Joffrey chicken bone battle.
New Mutants should be released to home. I want Maisie’s Sky TV show 2 Weeks to Live. They need to figure out a way for me to see it in the USA!!
We joined a free trial of Disney+. I have older kids but they both really like disney stuff. My daughter is 27 but she loves animation movies. I thought she was thinking about being an animator. She ended up doing e-media with video production in college, but I think she would still love getting into animation. I know that Adrianacandle knows alot about animation!
But I get you. Every second there’s another fr’kin streaming service that I have to have! I did break down and get CBS All Access for awhile too, because I had to watch Picard. I was going to wait until the season ended and binge them all in one month, but I couldn’t wait anymore especially with the lockdown. It is great btw. I plan on cancelling all of those once I finish watching the series I wanted to see. I’ll definitely cancel Disney and CBS All Access. I’m much more a star trek fan than star wars, so I haven’t watched Mandalorian yet (you have to have Disney+ for that one!!) But I read Pedro Pascal is the star, so I may have to watch it while I still have Disney+. I will say though I was disgusted to see ads for Disney+ on Facebook. I think they are going to get plenty, plenty, plenty of business during the lockdown without encouraging more people to order it, so if my kids didn’t really like having it temporarily, I would have cancelled it as soon as I saw that ad yesterday.
I cancelled my HBO and I cut the cable cord so I no longer have a cable subscriber so that’s something.
kevin1989,
I forgot “It’s always sunny in Philladelphia.”
Tron79,
I also like some good animation movies. I loved Madagaskar both movies. Kun Fu Panda. How to train your dragon trilogy. And of course older movies like Lion King, pinnochio etc
The only animated series I really liked was: Avatar the last airbender and it’s sequel: Legend of Korra.
This Public Service Message from The Queen in the North
“Stay inside, don’t be f–ing stupid, even if you count your freedom over — I don’t know, what is it — your health… I don’t give a F about your freedom. You could be infecting other people, other vulnerable people around you, by doing this. So stay inside, guys. It’s not cool and it’s not big and it’s not clever. And that’s the tea.”
– Sophie Turner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7kTijHKLWg
🧝🏻♀️ “My name is Sansa Stark and I approved this message.”
🗡👸🏻 “Can I lop off their heads if they don’t listen?”
🧝🏻♀️ “Arya, we talked about this —“
🗡👸🏻 “You never let me have any fun!”
———————
(text below excerpted from 3/22/20 comicbook.com):
“Game of Thrones Star Sophie Turner Drags Evangeline Lilly Over Refusal to Self Quarantine”
Last week, Ant-Man and The Wasp star Evangeline Lilly made a controversial post on Instagram indicating that she wasn’t going to self-quarantine to help stem the spread of COVID-19, noting that “some people value their lives over freedom, some people value freedom over their lives”. Now, Game of Thrones star Sophie Turner is chiming in with an Instagram Live video that appears to drag Lilly over her “business as usual” approach to the deadly pandemic.
In the video, Turner tells people to stay inside and reminds people that by prioritizing their “freedom” over health, they are potentially infecting others, something that is “not cool”.
Stay inside, don’t be f–ing stupid, even if you count your freedom over — I don’t know, what is it — your health,” Turner said. “I don’t give a F about your freedom. You could be infecting other people, other vulnerable people around you, by doing this. So stay inside, guys. It’s not cool and it’s not big and it’s not clever. And that’s the tea.”
Last week, Lilly posted a photo to Instagram with a caption that sparked controversy.
“Just dropped my kids off at gymnastics camp,” she wrote. “They all washed their hands before going in. They are playing and laughing.” In comments on the post, Lilly went further, dismissing COVID-19 as simply a “respiratory flu” though it’s worth noting that COVID-19 is not the flu, which is itself an illness caused by a different virus.
“Some people value their lives over freedom, some people value freedom over their lives,” she wrote. “We all make our choices. Where we are right now feels a lot too close to Marshall Law for my comfort already, all in the name of a respiratory flu.”
*****
As of the time of this article’s writing, there have been 294,110 confirmed cases and 12,944 confirmed deaths in 187 countries, areas or territories worldwide according to the World Health Organization
Ten Bears,
She’s right. However, I do hope that she’s stopped pulling on her juul every 10 minutes now that she has a wee one on the way. Or just because that’s fucking stupid, too.
Ah, rich privileged people bickering at each other.
Dammit I forgot Equilibrium. Seriously underrated movie with Christian Bale, Sean Bean, and Taye Diggs. Best gun fu evaaaaaar.
All the best to Kristopher and his family! Stay safe, stay healthy and good luck in all things! Remember the Free Folk ara not kneelers, and sure as shit they won’t do so before this COVID-19 fucker,
And good luck and goodspeed to George, I hope spending more time in Westeros is rewarding for him and for us readers…at least at some point….provided “The Walking Dead” doesn’t become reality….
I might see if I can find “Derry Girls” – I’ve heard by word of mouth it’s quite funny – it also has the Ser Barristan actor playing the grandpa of one of the girls. I missed “A Very English Scandal” when it was on TV – someone who doesn’t particularly like Hugh Grant told me it is worth a watch. It’s a ‘based on a true story’ type of drama. I might try to seek that out.
Ten Bears,
I have that book too. Very immersive read; something to savour over several months; great escapism.
The Akira Kurosawa movie “Ran” is also very good for people who enjoy the whole Samurai thing. A nicely remastered version was released on DVD a couple of years ago, so it’s even more visually stunning now.
Tron79,
I really like Disney still! I still love Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Lion King — all those Golden Age of Disney movies 😀 Thanks to death by chickenfire‘s recommendation of Miyuzaki’s Princess Mononoke (great movie!), has your daughter seen his films? They include Spirited Away and Howl’s Moving Castle! They are really fun, imaginative stories, and so beautifully done.
Oh yes, my adventures in animation! I spent a lot of my undergrad with animation and did three animations as support for my thesis when doing my MFA! One was a stop-motion animation and it took me two years to do. Much screaming.
Ten Bears,
Oh, it was really a learning curve yesterday to see what woods do well with engraving and what don’t so much. Ash seems to be the worst for what I was doing (and it gets sticky with sap), paduk is okay, but cherry is the best! I had spent a few days doing a weirwood tree design and it’s pretty detailed so I was afraid it was going to look like crap. I couldn’t get it quite as small as I wanted for it to still look sharp and crisp but it’s about the size of a luggage/backpack tag now! Cherry is a great wood 😀
I typically use birch plywood but I wanted to experiment with 3mm thins to see how those engraved. I’ll try black walnut and purple heart next!
But my rocket ship shelf worked out! That one was my major fear — that I had measured my notches and slots wrong and wasted a bunch of wood and laser time — but it worked! However, I need to retool a design on a smaller project 🙁
Ten Bears,
I agree with: stay at home.
But I have to react to this:
– First I can’t take Sophie serious with that face-filter. Does she really think people take her serious like that? I find even when I agree with her message, stay at home, a bit childish for doing that, especially when you want to raise something important like: Stay at home to safe lives.
– Why use the F word? I don’t know but after this video I really don’t take Sophie serious anymore. Using the F word, using a face-filter for a serious subject that is busy right in the world. I would have expected more maturity from somebody who is 24 years old.
– I did some research and search for Evangeline Lilly’s comments. I could find the first comment that she posted at her pics. If you google search her name with that first part you see that you are redirected to her Instagram. That way I’m certain that she said that. Do I agree with her choice: No.
– The second part of the comment that about: her freedom over her health. I can’t seem to find anything that she stated that on Instagram. And also not a serious tabloid stating that she state that only some gossip tabloids. I wonder if she really state that. I can’t find the source (her Instagram) or another trustworthy source about that.
Lastly, it’s very easy to blame Evangeline Lilly for her view. It could in fact bring people in danger (especially her father is currently on chemo, yes I did some extra research), but people need to take into account that Evangeline Lilly is also a human being, who went through multiple mental breakdowns (which I think is right on the corner what Evangeline Lilly goes through now and as a mother she needs to make certain that doesn’t happen). A self-Quarantine can for her trigger another meltdown. So before we all go onto a bandwagon and start hating Evangeline Lilly, the world is not so black and white, I don’t agree with the “not staying at home”-mentality but that doesn’t mean that there maybe another side to it that we didn’t know off.
As for Evangeline Lilly Instagram, I really feel old now. I remember when I begin to watch lost and she was 17 years younger in the first season than now. How time flies.
Since we’re recommending books, films etc, here are a few more from me:
+ The extended director’s cut DVD version of “Kingdom of Heaven”. Far better than the theatrical release, beautiful cinematography, some artistic liberties taken with historical facts but it’s still wonderfully atmospheric escapism. You’ll also recognise a few faces from GoT, especially early on (hello Jaime!). I think the movie’s cinematographer later worked on GoT too.
+ “Black Sails”. If you miss the best aspects of GoT, get the DVD box set for Sails. It was only 4 seasons, but what a masterpiece. Very clever bait & switch showrunning too; it starts off appearing to be one thing, but if you stick with it, from Season 2 it begins noticeably transforming into something else entirely, and from the start of Season 3 onwards it’s extraordinary. Yet when you watch the whole thing again, you notice that the seeds were planted right from the beginning. I can’t overstate how good this show is — it’s very nuanced, layered and intelligent, with outstanding production values and attention to detail — but you’ll need to make it through the first season and a controversial plot twist in the second season. As long as you do that, you’re in for an incredible experience. Eventually it also consistently has the most eloquent dialogue I’ve ever heard in any TV show; I wish the writers responsible had been hired for GoT’s last few seasons. The finale is ingenious too; the implications all hinge on the viewer’s perception of a certain major character; the showrunners have confirmed that the ambiguity was deliberate.
And there’s a special bonus for GoT fans: In the final two seasons (ie. 3 & 4), Luke Roberts, the guy who played Arthur Dayne himself, has a huge role as the charismatic main antagonist (a real-life historical figure). He turns out to be a truly gifted actor. Some official promo shots of him in the bottom two rows of pics here (click them to expand): http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/blacksails/gallery4/gallery11/gallery.htm
+ Non-fiction: The British historian Marc Morris’s books on medieval Britain are superb. You learn preconception-changing new facts on practically every page. “The Norman Conquest” is probably the best one for GoT fans; “A Great and Terrible King” is about Edward I “Longshanks” (yes, the villain in Braveheart), who seems to be the basis for Tywin; “King John” is about, well, King John, who really was a jerk but again more complex than the stereotype. Morris’s next book is about the Anglo-Saxons and will be published this September. He also has a very informative and pithily amusing Twitter account @Longshanks1307
+ More non-fiction: The “Baburnama” is the memoirs of the first Mughal emperor of India, written 500 years ago. India was still in its medieval era at the time, so you get a well-written first-person narrative by a real-life feudal prince and conqueror as his forces journey from Central Asia to northern India and establish a new empire there. Plenty of descriptions of medieval warfare etc, but he had quite eclectic interests so there’s a lot of “world-building” cultural and social stuff too, some of which will challenge stereotypes. The writing style is clear, eloquent and succinct; it’s also sprinkled with wry humour (mostly sarcastic asides about people he knows). Best version of the book is the “Modern Library” edition, translated by Princeton’s Wheeler Thackston and with a foreword by Salman Rushdie, available on Amazon.
kevin1989,
To Sophie’s defence, 24 is still very young. People know nothing at 24. And, what should be taken into account is that professional spaces do have particular codes of communication that don’t apply to others. The f-word must be very common among actors and singers (I know, it bothers me too, but whenever they’re caught off guard they’re always like this, and quite often without reason; they think it’s cool). She’s an actress, her husband is a singer.
In a few months when she’ll become a mother her world view will be turned upside down anyway.
Jai,
I’m totally convinced about Black Sails! I found it and I’m going to download it.
Arthur Dayne was very impressive in GoT. I wanted to see sth more from him, his face is familiar, but I can’t remember where I’ve seen him before.
Did Nicholai have a role in Kingdom of Heaven? I totally missed that. It’s one of my favorite movies about a Middle Ages event.
I anybody has a recommendation about Benjen Stark, please let me know.
[those legs of his are unforgetable, lol; also one I’ve seen before, don’t know where]
As some posters talk about watch lists during social distancing measures has anyone seen Last Christmas with Emilia Clarke? I wouldn’t normally go for RomCom type films but I have to say it’s pretty funny and Emilia (often maligned for her lack of acting skills) is superb in a comedic role. A number of GOT actors have landed some big movies which have failed at the box office (Solo, Xmen etc.) but I can certainly see this being a route for on-going success for Miss Clarke.
I would suggest giving it a watch if you can.
Efi,
” Did Nicholai have a role in Kingdom of Heaven? I totally missed that. It’s one of my favorite movies about a Middle Ages event.”
• Director’s cut of “Kingdom of Heaven is longer and better than version released in theaters.
• I liked the movie anyway. (Disclosure: I ❤️ Eva Green.)
• Jorah Mormont (Iain Glen) was in “Kingdom of Heaven.” In the last few minutes of the movie he appears as King Richard/Richard the Lionhearted.
• Alexander Siddig (Doran Martell) was also in Kingdom of Heaven.
• Was Jaime Lannister also in Kingdom of Heaven??? I don’t recall.
Emilia “Ray of Sunshine” Clarke is a natural for comedy roles. (I must have watched her “Where are my dragon!” spoof video fifty times.)
I have not watched “Last Christmas.” Upon your recommendation I shall add it to my “To Watch” list. 🤓
I have “Me Before You” recorded on my DVR. I have not watched it yet. I’ve heard she’s good in it.
She was really good in a supporting role in “Dom Hemingway” starring Jude Law and Richard E. Grant (Izembarro/faux King Robert
of Braavos theater troupe in GoT).
Emilia Clarke sings in that movie. And she’s really good!
Jon Snowed,
(Cont. from 11:17 am)
In case anyone hasn’t seen this already…
Emilia Clarke spoofs her line, “Where are my dragons!”
• “Where are my dragons!” (from GoT)
• “Where is my wig!”
• “Where is my Orange Mocha Frappuccino!”
• “Where are my kale chips!”
• “Where is my accent?”
• “Where is the toilet paper?”
• “Where is the plunger?”
• “Where are my Spanx?”
• Where is the remote?”
• “Where is my Uber!!!!”
• “Where is my cleavage?”
• “Where is my boyfriend?”
• “Where is my butt plug?” 😝
• “Where is my privacy?”
Jai,
Black sails was a good watch. And don’t forget that Tom Hopper (Dickon Tarly season 7) had also a role into that show.
Efi,
That’s true 24 is not really mature but I think mature enough not to use a face filter when talking about something serious like Covid-19, for me that doesn’t come over as 24 but more as 16 years old, I think even most 16 years old who love face-filters know that when you talk about something serious you do it serious without any childish adds to it. As for the F-word I think professionals in music/actor industry would use the F-word less on important videos than the average person. You learn to behave more “courteous”. I’m all for speaking your mind and making a point for the defenseless (what Sophie did with trying to achieve with her video) but the way she did it is not something that gain my respect in fact the other way.
And that’s true, I think once she becomes a mother her live will change a lot, she will gain lots of life-experience and she will mature very fast with being a mother.
Efi,
Also try Vikings. I think many GoT fans would love that show.
Ten Bears,
Thanks for the share XD
Yikes. Dude, do you have any idea how many people have been through bad times and can be “triggered” in a myriad of ways? That is no excuse to make the ignorant statements that Evangeline made. Evangeline is yet another dope who uses “freedom” as an excuse to be selfish and do whatever she wants without regard to consequences. She doesn’t seem to realize that her version of “freedom” actually encroaches on other people’s rights. It’s just a selfish mindset. She’s prioritizing her “freedom” over other people’s health. There’s nothing ok about that.
Personally, I don’t have any issue with Sophie swearing. It’s not the best way to make a point, but sometimes it’s understandable. She was obviously frustrated with the idiotic mindset of people like Lilly.
I cannot disagree with this comment enough. People should know plenty by 24 years old.
I don’t think swearing necessarily means someone is acting like a child. There are plenty of legit reasons to swear. it just depends on the situation.
I knew more when I was 12 years old than I do now. 🤓
kevin1989,
It’s alright as much as possible at the moment. I haven’t seen Interstellar yet. I have to give it a try, as I have to other suggestions in here.
Mr Derp,
Well, on the other hand she now knows less than she will when she’ll be 40!
(Contrary to what TB thinks)
kevin1989,
She’s a very young person who’s shaped at this age by her husband, who’s ten years older if I’m not mistaken. I don’t want to downgrade Sophie’s volition and independence of opinion, but this is probably at least partly true considering that young people are easily influenced and much more so by one whom they admire. While they have an admirable relationship and Joe is “good boyfriend material” as one put it once on the internet, I think they simply got carried away and tried to laugh the gravity of the situation off. I’m not saying it was a good thing, just that it’s their m.o. In addition, their audience and their followers are probably also very young people. Apparently they’re still to learn that such m.o. does not command much respect but among their own audience that’s, idnk, 15, 16, or 18?
Thanks for the suggestion. I’ve seen… glimpses of Vikings, and at first I couldn’t stand it. But everybody says that it’s good, so perhaps I’ll give it a try.
At the risk of igniting a fan war with my dear friend Kevin1989, I respectfully differ with him on “Interstellar”(2014). I thought it blew. Big time. I am sure we can civilly debate its merits some other time in the near future during the Long Night.
For a much, much better space travel movie starring Matt Damon and Jessica Chastain (who also co-starred in “Interstellar”), allow me to recommend Ridley Scott’s “The Martian” (2015). It was smart, witty, and engaging from start to finish.
Bonus: Sean Bean co-stars in “The Martian” as the honorable Ned Stark – I mean the honorable NASA Flight Director.
That’s just me. I’ve been regressing into a second childhood ever since I was 15. 🙂
first of it your previous answer: no, i haven’´t seen “The Green Book”. it´s on my buy-the-dvd-list, just for the case we’´ll ever find open stores again one time.
i regret that i haven’t seen Josey Wales by now. saw some fragments on youtube which looked good to me, and it is on my get-the-effing-dvd-as-cheap-as-possible-list. social welfare cheap, you know…
the thing with “A Man Called Horse” is special. i could and nearly would have nominated “Jeremiah Johnson” instead. or “The New World”
it’s: the movie touches my idea of people wrecked or just bored by european civilisation entering a not yet “civilized” and seemingly “in touch with nature” world. i watched it with spoken german language, and this version does not translate what the Sioux say. i watched it without subtitles, so i faced the same challenge the main character had to face: wtf are they saying?
after some 20 watchings since i have the dvd, i imagine to understand more and more of what they say. if i’m wrong with this, i expect losing my scalp pretty one of the next times i watch it.
i’ve had a strange interest in the history of west for a long time. for reasons, or with cheap excuses.
– i live in the country that sent some Karl Bodmer on his way. the guy who painted the most beautiful pictures of how the west may have looked like at the time the movie displays.
– i grew up in a big city with no legal access to the rural areas around it. most probably west berlin. desire for anything that looked like nature is my pre-existing condition nr 1. what could serve better than images of nature not yet touched by goldminers and iron horses?
– my complicated family history says i might be the grandson of a member of the US troops who saved germany in 45. my mom´’s (who has been born in 46 far away from the catholic south where her mom actually lived and got adopted in 48) cheekbones have always said her father might not be irish… so do mine.
i never found out about where she came from, where i come from. but the idea of an indian probably freeing the country of my birth is still very present.
– in 1984, i picked “bury my heart at wounded knee” from my mom´’s books. it needed no longer than the Sand Creek massacre until i cried the shit out of my heart. i was nearly 16 then.
in this book, there’s been a small passport-sized photo of a man who looked pretty… well, cheekbones. i never asked, and i never will as contact is on cut since 1988.
i think i’m the classic type of romantic good-old-days-worshipper. just substract my complete disdain of superstition and tribalism 😉
i got lost a bit. i never had to dive into my past so deep in this community in order to make my point clear (or fail at it). what i want to say is: i actually don’t know shit about what makes a movie a good movie. but i do know when a movie touches something inside me. and art that doesn’t touch me deep inside can co eff itself over and over.
kevin1989,
Hi Kevin! I regret that we disagree on “Interstellar.” (See my 4:24 pm reply to Tiago.)
However, I really liked Nolan’s trippy “Inception” (2010), as well as “The Dark Knight Rises” (2012) – I loved Anne Hathaway as Selina Kyle. I’ve also heard great things about “The Prestige” (2006), though I have yet to see it.
Nobody ever mentions the superb
The Last Kingdom
Based on Bernard Cornwell’s Saxon novels. Set in the time of Alfred the Great.
It’s excellent. Season 4 is due to arrive on Netflix on 26 April, so there is time to catch up. It has somewhat in common with Vikings, but is better written IMO, and has more humour. No fantasy, but a bit of witchcraft here and there, and some wonderful characters.
Treat the first episode as a prequel. A lot happens in it, and the main character grows from child to man. By Ep 3 the story has set in nicely. (Keep an eye out for Game Of Thrones alumni!)
death by chickenfire,
“I regret that i haven’t seen Josey Wales by now. Saw some fragments on youtube which looked good to me, and it is on my get-the-effing-dvd-as-cheap-as-possible-list. social welfare cheap, you know.”
Oh, I think you’ll really like it. If you check back here in the next day or so*, I can give you a spoiler-free rundown. For now, I hope you won’t settle for the chopped up, “edited for time,” TV version.
* Real world responsibilities intrude on my time. 🤢
death by chickenfire,
”…but the idea of an Indian probably freeing the country of my birth is still very present.
– in 1984, I picked “bury my heart at wounded knee” from my mom´’s books. it needed no longer than the Sand Creek massacre until i cried the shit out of my heart.”
Let me just add that some of the plot lines in “The Outlaw Josey Wales” involve the genocide of Native Americans, broken treaties, theft of their lands, and forced relocation to Reservations (e.g., “The Trail of Tears”). Also, Native American actors
Chief Dan George, Will Sampson and Geraldine Keams have prominent roles in the movie playing a Cherokee, Comanche, and Cheyenne.
… To be continued…
Mr Derp,
I have to say that what I though this afternoon changed a bit how I looked at her. I won’t go into personal with EL. I could feel for her about that, I went through mental issues and I know how it is to take care of somebody who has cancer and what comes with that. To say about that, I hope she doesn’t give the virus to her father who lives with her and has stage four cancer. Which I think would make her think twice about protecting his life (I would so somehow even when I could resonate with her situation, I can’t resonate with her resolution). And I hope for her that she comes to her senses before it’s too late.
As for her statement, I look up how far Canada really was the day that she made that statement, somehow I though that Canada had less people having the virus compared to the Netherlands. Well I was wrong, when EL made her statement it was already at 600 I though it was at that moment just starting it’s first cases and it was not so known it Canada yet. And I start to feel more to her like I do know to the people who disobey measurements in our country (which I can say I’m happy the government start fining people who disobey the measurements).
For me what it was, is that I though back to when the virus was not yet in our country where I was still ignorant about it. Which I though Canada was last week.
Also it made me think about another famous Dutch person who also made a stupid comment last week (He states that we should start hugging and showing compassion to each other, little bit dumb comment) who got a lot of problems because of it, luckily his comment was dumb and not selfish, so we didn’t dislike him for it, just found his comment dumb in the Netherlands and out of place. But it made me think that EL is also famous. It comes with people who listen to you and maybe make dumb decisions by following her.
Hereby I want state: I was wrong what I stated in the other comment.
This is something I also feel. When I was a teenager I felled I knew everything. Now I doubt everything, even my own statements.
Tiago,
We had one day that it goes better than the one before. Hope tomorrow is the same, but I think it goes up again tomorrow with more than today. I really hope we will get to the max soon enough.
As for the movies it’s a great movie interstellar.
As for a TVshow: I also though of Peaky Blinders. 5 seasons of 6 episodes of an hour per season. 30 total right now. It’s an amazing show.
Efi,
I think Sophie is her own person. She has her own voice even before she met her husband. And as you state maybe she did that clip like that because of the people watching her clips. I just wish people would listen more to officials (doctors, the WHO, CDC)
As for Vikings. It took me a couple of episodes to get into. It get’s better (even very fast a big change happens, I think episode 5 or 6 already). I think overal it’s an amazing story that progressed amazingly. And it has a lot in common with GoT. Which I think some things GoT did better some things Vikings (one thing I think Vikings did better was female characters)
Ten Bears,
I would love to talk to you about it in the near future :D. I never watched the Martian, I should put that one on my list. Looks interesting. 😀
Ten Bears,
I also liked Inception. But somehow I liked Interstellar better. I loved the emotion behind it. Also what I love how true it was to science. Neil Degrasse Tyson made a FB comment about it a while back that it was true except one thing
. But that was done on purpose by Nolan for story reasons. For the rest the science was on par. Time changes, the bridge in the end etc.
I also love the father daughter bonding. And the emotional story about them being apart, which really got to me.
Grandmaester Flash,
I have that on on my list, but I wait till Vikings is done, because some characters overlap. Which for me is difficult to keep track of when 2 characters are in two different shows. I heard it’s great 😀
kevin1989,
Father-daughter bonding? After returning to her when she was an old woman…he said hi and then left.
Like Groucho Marx (as Captain Jeffrey T. Spaulding) sang 90 years ago in “Animal Crackers”
🎼 “Hello, I must be going.
I cannot stay, I came to say,
‘I must be going’.” 🎶
kevin1989,
I just saw your 7:16 pm reply. Yes, we can discuss “Interstellar” some other time. (Lord knows we’re going to have enough “indoor time” during the next several weeks or months.)
As for “The Martian,” you’ll love how “true it was to the science.” In fact, that’s what the movie’s all about: “Sciencing the sh*t out of a problem.”
“The Martian” won the Golden Globe for “Best Comedy or Musical,”* and Matt Damon won the Golden Globe for Best Actor.
* Kind of an odd categorization. The movie had smart, snappy dialogue – though I’m not sure it was a typical “comedy.”
Here’s the set-up of the movie:
Ten Bears,
I loved The Martian. I’ve seen it a couple of times. It shocks me that it was in the comedy category. It was mostly suspense and drama. I guess a few situations were amusing but I wouldn’t call it a comedy.
Efi,
You really are in for a treat with Black Sails. Enjoy.
Exceptional acting from most of the leads. Especially Luke Roberts, of course, but also Luke Arnold as “Long” John Silver (the character goes through the biggest transformation during the story, and it’s a testament to Arnold’s acting skills that he manages to pull it off), Toby Stephens as Captain Flint, and HBO Rome’s Ray Stevenson, practically unrecognisable as Blackbeard. Others were superb too, but I think those guys were probably the best.
Efi,
Ten Bears,
Yes, he played the village sheriff during the parts set in Europe early in the movie. A number of shots actually focused on him, including the eventual fight in the forest. He’s easy to spot once you realise it’s him.
Ten Bears,
Yes but that was the point, she was old. She had a life, her life now was her own children and her Grandchildren and she was about to die, something she didn’t want her father to say. He didn’t belong there anymore. He saved her life in the end and she had a long life. But their bonding already showed through out the whole movie. It starts with a half an hour them together as father and daughter. Then we see that the reason he leaves is because of his daughter he wants to safe her life, that’s why he goes into space. Into space we see him how missing his daughter’s life, missing her grow up effects him, the reason why he is fighting he is missing, his daughters life. On earth we see how the absent of her father shape her into the woman she is, she is different than if he would have stayed, she misses him constantly and wishes that he would be there. And in the end he saves her (his goal was her not the human race) but she is already at the end of her life and about to die, he just arrived back on time, but not soon enough that he could see a part of her life again (bittersweet the forbidden word), he just arrived on time to say goodbye (she will die, but he will still live a live). It’s still an ending that makes me cry my eyes out. He saved her life but wasn’t part of that life.
The whole movie is build up the love of a father for his daughter, and how far a father would go to safe his daughter’s life, even missing her life and going far away on a mission to safe her. More than half the scenes are about them being a father and daughter, first having scenes together then missing each other and showing the audience how that effects him, and in the end the whole clue of the plot was: Fathers-love-saves-humanity.
Ten Bears,
I put it on my list. (I read that it’s also very scientific accurate. I like that.
No, you don’t need to worry about that. There are no overlapping characters (unless you count the brief appearances of Alfred the Great as a child in Vikings). You may be thinking about a character called Ragnar, but the Ragnar who appears at the beginning of TLK is not the same person as Ragnar Lothbrok in Vikings.
TLK begins in the reign of Alfred the Great, whereas Vikings is mainly set in the earlier reign of Egbert. That said, I haven’t watched S5 of Vikings as I felt it had peaked.
https://deadline.com/2020/03/game-of-thrones-indira-varma-tests-positive-coronavirus-for-life-1202888042/
Hope she gets better soon.
Grandmaester Flash,
Oh true, and Althestein is in both I think? But for me with the same name and same historical figure I can get confused. Then when watching Vikings I would see the Ragnar from TLK for instance. And otherwise the same, I connect a name with a face.
But it’s on my list and still have 2 series on my list who are already finished (or are busy with their last season) so those 2 comes before a show that still will get a new season. And maybe I wait with this show to watch with my partner (It will take a while then) but maybe much more fun.
I know it’s been said before but stay well and safe, folks. Someone has kindly said they’ll get some bit and bobs for me and after Bo-Jo* addressed the nation with something not far off a lockdown last night I took them up on the offer to get some cans of veg and cat food in (no the cat food isn’t for me – I’m a vegetarian and will improvise some soups or something with the vegetables). The person doing the shopping was kind to offer – of course I’ll have to work out the logistics of paying for it. Maybe go down to the nearest ATM donning a pair of Marigolds** during the night when not to many people are about.
* Boris Johnson
** A brand name of some rubber washing gloves in the UK. Although we sometimes talk about ‘marigolds’ about rubber gloves generically here. Like my vacuum cleaner is a Panasonic but I still use it to hoover. In fact (now I have no proof for this – it’s just me surmising – I wondered if in the recent adaptation of “The Witcher” the Polish name Jaskier was retained because of the connection with Marigolds (I THINK Jaskier is Polish for Marigold – I’m sure I’ll soon be told if I’m wrong). Jaskier is Dandelion in the Witcher games I believe. I was surprised to find out that one of the actors in Chicago Fire (not sure if he’s still in it because I haven’t seen it for some time) in his youth played Alf Garnett’s (like a British version of Archie Bunker) support assistant. Alf’s nickname for the character was ‘Marigold’ – who used to take the P out of Alf also calling him ‘Bwana’.
kevin1989,
I loved Interstellar, I also enjoyed The Martian very much. The Martian was very entertaining, Interstellar was very optimistic in the end, bittersweet, yes, but you end watching it with a smile, like, it was worth it -both watching the movie and what the main character went through in his adventure.
If anyone’s interested, Ad Astra with Brad Pitt was also surprisingly good, even though not even close to the aforementioned movies. It’s supposed to be fiction, I guess, man has conquered Mars and is about to conquer all the rest, but it turns out to be a psychological exploration of the relationship of the main character with his long missing father. I found that twist interesting and the way it ended satisfying.
If you (or anyone else) is into space movies, I’d recommend it with an asterisk –it’s not Star Wars, or Star Trek, not Alien, not Solaris, not as complicated as Interstellar.
On a different level, I believe one of the best movies I’ve ever seen is The Departed. Leonardo Dicaprio and Matt Damon in their best. What a movie!
Speaking of space movies…
Has anyone here ever seen Spaceballs?
I looked on Ebay today and a brand of gluten-free soup (I’m coeliac) that normally sells for £1.80 or so was retailing for £24. I’m not supporting that kind of greed though I did buy some rubbing alcohol which has had its price hiked up. A large bottle of Dettol was going for £29. So you can see why I decided to take the chap who offered to do some shopping for me up on his offer. To be fair I have had a few people say they will help me if they can so while there are some folk being reprehensible by charging over the top prices for items which are currently in demand there are others who are going the extra mile for kindness. I can’t be a**ed to do the conversion into dollars or Euros at the moment. I’ve never been able to find the first of the Bernard Cornwell books about Uthred to read the books in the order they were published/written. Somebody told me they are best read in order. People will probably know or have guessed (I may have said it on this forum before) that my name is taken from Aethelflaede of Mercia, daughter of Alfred the Great. She founded my hometown (she founded a few towns in the English midlands so I’m not doxing myself by saying that).
With regard to Sophie, she may have reacted in the heat of the moment. I was going to say something about redheads being reputed to have a fiery temperament but of course real life Sophie is blonde. I think it’s sensible to count to at least 10 before one reacts to something but even at my advanced age I have been known to react in the heat of the moment though less than when I was younger.
I have some forms to fill in – I always like to keep a record of what I say so I’ll have to force myself to master the photographing application on my smartphone so I can photograph them.
I had worried that if things didn’t improve Indira and Emilia’s play (well they weren’t the only people in it but they are the ones associated with GoT) would be cancelled and of course I hope Indira improves rapidly.
Jai,
Thanks for that. I didn’t remember seeing Nikolaj Coster-Waldau in “The Kingdom of Heaven.”
To be honest, it becomes difficult to recall early scenes after listening to Jorah Mormont’s mellifluous voice near the very end, and then seeing Eva Green rocking a Lyanna Stark look in a hooded fur parka:
Kingdom of Heaven –
Closing scene
0:57 to 1:28 Ian Glen as Richard the Lionheart, King of England
1:52 – 2:03 Eva Green
Yes! I howled 🤣 at this scene…
Spaceballs – Alien at Diner Scene
at 1:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf7KKRnpv5U
———
Ten Bears,
Yes! Talented from birth ;D
And combing the desert…!
Dame of Mercia,
Bo-Jo: needs to remind that nickname.
And that’s very nice of that person. Eat healthy and stay safe.
How is your Cat doing?
Efi,
Yes same here, was also my feeling.
And you also sold me further to watch the Martian. Thanks for the tip Ten Bears. It also looks interesting.
And I will look into that other movie.
Adrianacandle,
Spaceballs? Sounds a bit chewy to me. 🙂
What is it about? 😀
Dame of Mercia,
I’m also a read-head so I think you’re right. I’m also sometimes a hot head 😀
Ten Bears,
And my other favourite moment: the system is jammed! (spoiler: it’s raspberry).
It’s a parody of space movies, mostly Star Wars! The first two paragraphs from Wikipedia ;D
….Pizza the Hutt….
(I won’t tell you what happens to Pizza the Hutt but… I’d say it’s b*****s****)
Adrianacandle,
Sounds funny XD
As parody comedy movies with silly humor I also love the “Naked Gun” Trilogy. Leslie Nielson is just brilliant in that.
I loved him as Oskar Schindler and the voice of Aslan!! 😭
I’ll give Naked Gun a try, thanks!
Adrianacandle,
I think you will like it. It’s a parody on police movies. And a bit of the same humor. It’s my favorite comedy movie.
Oh and that’s not Leslie Nielson, that was Liam Neeson.
Leslie Nielson is this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Nielsen
He only did comedy.
As for Shindler’s list. Great movie. But hard to watch. Still a master piece.
Nick20,
No. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss gave us a proper ending and since GRRM seems to struggle finishing his books, he should ask them for some advices.
kevin1989,
The cat seems to be doing okay. To be honest before my hair turned grey I was brown haired with red highlights. I say I was brunette with red highlights, then brunette with grey highlights then grey with brown/red highlights and now I’m just grey!!! My late mother was a redhead in her younger years though in later life she had become grey haired. I’m half Irish and Irish people are reputed to (possibly) have a fiery temper.
Athelstan? No, I don’t think there’s an Athelstan in TLK (so far), but many of these Saxon names are pretty similar.
And you can forget about Ragnar. I don’t want to spoil anything, but the Earl Ragnar in TLK only appears at the beginning, then there is a big time jump. The first episode is largely a prequel to the main story, and Earl Ragnar is not part of the main story.
Dame of Mercia,
Auburn is that called right?
Dutch people are known for down to earth and calm but still I’m fiery so now and then, but luckily I know that of myself.
And enough Wiskey at home? (because your Irish :D)
Grandmaester Flash,
I though that the priest Athelstan was also in the last Kingdom but it seems that’s not true.
I have the show on my list and in the future I think I may try it with my partner. Watching together is more fun.
But I read that Alfred will have a major part to play in Vikings the final 10 episodes. So I think I will wait after that. So that I don’t have problems keeping the two Alfred’s out of each other. (Which would be December when that show ends). The Premise of the Last Kingdom sounds promising. How many seasons are there ordered? Or is the show already finished? (I rather watch finished shows right now too many shows that are still busy)
kevin1989,
It depends on the shade of reddish-brown, Kevin. There is the auburn shade and also ‘chestnut’ – like the shade of the horse chestnut fruit (the one you play ‘conkers’ with) – not the sweet chestnut – nobody should eat the fruit of the horse chestnut. I don’t have any whiskey in the house but I bought some gin recently with the intention of making some homemade (DIY) hand sanitiser but it isn’t strong enough to kill off the Covid-19 virus. I have learned that you need a stronger spirit to make the hand sanitiser – that’s why I’ve bought the ‘rubbing alcohol’ (surgical spirit). I gave myself a drink of gin and orange earlier this afternoon but am lying down now because I’m a bit like the subject of the song ‘I belong to Glasgow, dear old Glasgow town’. I’m not in Glasgow as I’m in England not Scotland but like the bit of the song that says ‘There’s something the matter with Glasgow ’cause it’s going round and round” – my habitual intake of alcohol is very small so the gin and orange has had an effect on me even though it was not a large drink so I’m resting up till the effect of the booze has worn off. I’m not too badly off for soap so at present don’t have a problem with my 20 second hand washes.
As my old lady/over 60s activities (which include a Spanish class) are on hiatus at present I’ve been looking at the Los Siete Reinos site to get some practice in Spanish. However it is my aural and oral Spanish which is ‘pants’ – my written Spanish may not be fantastic but it is better than my ability to listen to and follow a conversation in Spanish.
Oh, you joker you. I didn’t mind the show ending personally though Messrs B&W have said themselves they were taking a different route to wind up at the same ending (as GRRM). It’s not necessarily (in Sincerely Thine’s opinion) wholly a bad thing that the books (hopefully when they are published) may have some different plot points to the show because if they were going to be EXACTLY the same as the show then why bother reading them. If people hate the show ending one isn’t going to change their minds so I think (not that anyone takes any notice of me) it’s best to agree to disagree.
Ten Bears,
I have to see both movies. And give my verdict on what’s the best then.
kevin1989,
A friend of mine told me good things about Peaky Blinders. I’ll try it. At this moment, I’m rewatching The Wire. It’s a very dense series in which the main character, a bit like GoT, is not the people portrayed by actors but the world they are in; the city of Baltimore and its society in that case.
something about fifteen times between 1988 and 1992. now comb the desert for asking such a question!
speaking of space movies, comedy section:
death by chickenfire,
Here’s a relatively spoiler free scene from “The Outlaw Josey Wales” featuring Chief Dan George.
——-
Lone Watie meets Josey Wales
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atzmdijMfRY
—-
I don’t know, and I haven’t read the books, but I’m told that each season covers roughly two books in the series. So with the upcoming S4 we must be up to eight books now, and so far twelve have been published. We know that Uhtred, the main character, is going to live to a good age as the series is the story of his life.
I didn’t know about Alfred’s reappearance in Vikings. They have altered his story considerably though.
[Cheap Segue…]
Bill Pullman (Lone Star in that scene from “Spaceballs”) stars in “Zero Effect” (1998).
“Zero Effect” is one of the films in my Top Ten Favorite Movies of All Time.
Dame of Mercia,
Best to use is handsoap, try to wash enough with soap when you need to, in the end soap works better than hand sanatizer, at least that is what the RIVM told our country. And try to use enough handcreme to restore the skin. And if you use handsanatizer don’t cook on gas directly after it. Some people are in hospital with burned hands.
Still learning, that’s great. Spanish is a beautiful language. I sometimes wish I was better at languages. I’m ok-ish with dutch and English but other languages I always have difficulty with.
Tiago,
The wire, what an amazing show. Watched that show I think 2 or 3 times. Love the characters, the city everything. Brilliant piece of art. Which season are you in? Is Aiden Gillen already shown up? Did you know they wanted Dominic West first for the role of Mance Rayder but he declined?
As for Peaky Blinders. It’s an amazing show, and one of the best cast there is. It’s about a gang-group: The peaky blinders. It started right of when WW1 ended, every season shows a time in their lifes (I think the show ends when WW2 starts). It’s about the power the main character gains through it and the means he goes for it. The characters are brilliant. And it shows points in history which are very interesting. Season 2 is especially when the season gets great, where Tom Hardy gets into the show. Also some GoT actors are in the show like: Lord Locke, Littlefinger, Doran Martell and some others.
If you like a good character driven story that focus on family combined with showing the criminals side of things set into the beginning of the 20th century this show is for you.
EDIT: What stands out with Peaky blinders is that when the episodes are written all by the same person. Every season has it’s own director who only does that season. So every season has it’s own vibe but every season stands out on it’s own because every director has it’s own take. The only downside is if you don’t like a certain director you won’t like the whole seasons direction.
Grandmaester Flash,
Oh sorry didn’t knew you watched Vikings. Me neither but I wanted to make sure that Alfred stayed away from Vikings before starting a show with his character, but the writer told he will be getting back in the final 10 episodes. (which I like, it shows the writer wants to finish all storylines properly).
But somehow it feels amazing to watch the Last Kingdom after Vikings is done, that means that I still have a show that sets in that timeline over once Vikings stops. I find such tv-shows interesting.
Well okay, if nobody else is going to mention it, here’s one of the best Guilty Pleasure movies of all time…
“Dirty Dancing” (1987)
#NobodyPutsBabyInACorner
Ten Bears,
Great guilty pleasure movie Ten Bears.
Question about the Martian. Did you watch the extended cut and is the extended scenes worth it?
Tiago,
Both among my favorite series (The Wire is my top 1 of all times) !
The photography in Peaky Blinders is sooo beautiful. Enjoy!
In a different style, I enjoyed La Casa de Papel, especially season 1 (both suspenseful and funny), in my country it’s on Netflix
Efi: The Departed is also among my favorite films.
Someone (sorry, too many posts to catch up with, I can’t remember who) quoted Ran by Kurosawa : great film, too (lots of other Kurosawa are, but I’ don’t know their titles in English).
I loved Inception, too (and enjoyed Ad Astra); not sure about Interstellar (too… scientific for me, black holes and worms baffle me).
One of my favorite western is by Wellman (Westward the women…1951)
I love old films and my top 10 list would probably be before 1970 or somewhere around the 1980s-1990s., so I won’t try.
kevin1989,
• Good to know you agree about Guilty Pleasure movie “Dirty Dancing.”✅
Honestly, I did not think I would like it based on its description. Yet from this early scene (below) I was hooked. And the music! And Cynthia Rhodes dancing! [She’s the blonde dancing with Patrick Swayze in the scene below. Instant celeb crush for younger me.]
Scene from “Dirty Dancing”:
Francine (“Baby”) meets Johnny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijK0WTB_-RY
———
• I am not sure if I saw the “extended” cut of The Martian. Frankly, I didn’t realize there were two different versions. I saw it on cable about a year or two ago.
Dame of Mercia,
I recently watched some rewrites on YouTube for season 8 and I can’t believe how bad they were but the people in the comments sections call them “amazing” and better than the original. Bad plots mixed with bad fan service, fan theories and a pretty bad fairy tale end. Every rewrite had a completely different plot than the original version. So much for it that the main issue is the “how” and not the “what”. This fandom is hypocritical and the worst ever.
The amount of nasty hate Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss getting on social media again because of their cameo in Westworld makes me ashamed of this fandom.
The Wire is extraordinary TV. Besteva!
And space movies…..Does “My Life as a Dog” count as a space movie?
The Children Of Men is a great movie. I really like Clive Owen – I thought he would have had a bigger career than he seems to be having at the moment.
Any list of movies worth seeing must include The Godfather.
I watched “Snatch” (2000) tonight with my friend before she sets off home to England (eek, airports), and although I hadn’t forgotten how much I love that movie, I’d forgotten how much I love Brad Pitt and Vinnie Jones in it. And of course my reason for seeing the movie 20 years (?!?!) ago to begin with, my crush Benicio del Toro. Has anyone seen “The Gentlemen”? I thought it looked like a bit of a throwback to the Guy Ritchie movies of old (sigh), but I am prepared to be disappointed. I’m such a pessimist. 🤪
Children of Men was a great movie! I had read a number of PD James books before I even clued in that she’d written the one that the movie is based on. Clive Owen is a fantastic actor who has had a few movie bombs, for sure. I really liked the campy “Shoot ‘Em Up” with Paul Giamatti and Monica Belucci. 😁
Pigeon,
PD James is a writer* who continued actively writing into old age – she was 94 when she died in 2014. She’s one of the examples I give sometimes as a hope ‘Winds of Winter’ may be published and appear in book shops.
* Do I hear a collective rendition of “You’ve said that before Dame” from other readers/posters on this thread?
Regarding mention upthread of soap, I have hand soap (not the liquid variety). Although I’m limiting leaving my home to the absolute minimum at present sometimes cakes of soap in public lavatories get stolen or if they are in liquid containers those containers are allowed to run out. That said I haven’t been to a public loo for a while in the present unusual circumstances. I was thinking of carrying hand sanitiser with me in case I needed to touch a surface that had been touched by all and sundry. For instance I want to combine my one allowed exercise period per day (a walk) with going to a cash machine to get some money to pay the person who will be shopping for me. I can ‘glove up’ of course – I did mention about the ‘Marigolds’ yesterday. I could use a piece of Kleenex* to cover the keypad at the ATM I suppose.
*Another word where a brand name has become synonymous (in the UK anyhow) for any paper handkerchief made by any manufacturer.
I found out yesterday that the supposedly refined Victorians had a rather descriptive slang word for a handkerchief skittishlibrary.co.uk/victorian-slang-of-the-week-snobstick-and-a-lot-of-snot (If people don’t want to click on the link the work is ‘snottinger’). And to think I thought GRRM was a bit crude with ‘the more she drank the more she sh*t’ and his sometimes liberal use of the word c*ck – and he wasn’t talking about Chanticleer.
In my hometown I’ve seen on the borough website that public loos are closed at present so my remark about lack of soap therein (cakes of soap people sometimes steal and not just in the current epidemic) doesn’t apply at present.
Ten Bears,
I think that was the normal cut, they most of the time go for that version.
I think I will go for that version and look online the extended scenes.
I love the Wire, it’s one of my favourite shows of all time. I’ve not seen Peaky Blinders but here in the UK it has a cult/fairly large and positive reception.
Thinking of other shows I would suggest as follows:
1) Sopranos
2) Breaking Bad
3) The Wire
4) MindHunter (Netflix)
5) Marvel series (Netflix)
6) Narcos (Netflix)
I guess my genre is more crime related!
I’ve been using anti-bacterial surface wipes when I go to a town. Wipe down trolley handles with one, and cover my finger with one when using keypads etc. I’ve got some hand sanitiser, but it’s hard to get so I’m only using it sparingly.
A lovely film which always lifts my spirits and provides plenty of laughs is “Waking Ned”. (in some countries the title is “Waking Ned Devine”.) It’s a comedy about a lottery win in a small Irish village. I have it on DVD, but I think it may be available to stream somewhere. Check it out and thank me later.
Grandmaester Flash,
“Waking Ned Devine” has been compared to the movie I’ve been yakking about, “Hear My Song.” Thanks to your recommendation I shall put it on my “To Watch” list.
Bonus: I looked up the cast. James Nesbitt appears in “Waking Ned Devine.” James Nesbitt also appeared in “Hear My Song” – his first movie.
James Nesbitt co-starred in “Gold” with Maisie Williams.
…Proving once again the ancient Roman adage:
“All roads lead to ASNAWP.”
🗡👸🏻
Dame of Mercia,
Grandmaester Flash,
Q: Although I’ve been trying to educate myself on anti-virus countermeasures, one thing that hasn’t been clear is what kind of soap is best for hand-washing?
I’ve got (blue, liquid) Dawn dishwashing detergent, as well as Ivory bar soap. (I’ve also got some gift boxes with perfumed cake soap and perfumed liquid.)
Does anyone know which is best?
Great. Now six days later (as of yesterday, 3/24/20) there are 1,467 cases in Florida.
F*cking Spring Breakers. Dummy MAGA Governor. Clueless tourists.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/florida-covid-19-cases-increase-by-240-tuesday-bringing-total-to-1467
Dame of Mercia,
It’s frustrating that my state governor and putative President seem to be willing to sacrifice people to save “the economy.”
We need a leader like Lord Commander Jon Snow to inspire and unite the people…
________
Jon Snow speech to Wildlings in Hardhome (S5e8)
at 3:36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qxutn-AJ2o
“The Long Night is coming and the dead come with it. No clan can stop them, the Free Folk can’t stop them, the Night’s Watch can’t stop them, and all the southern kings can’t stop them. Only together, all of us, and even then it might not be enough but at least we’ll give the f*ckers a fight.”
– Jon Snow
Pigeon,
Clive Owen was good in one of my Guilty Pleasure movies: “Sin City” (2005).
Ten Bears,
I think all all good. Best is using soap, handsanitizer only works if you also use soap. And try to buy a bottle of handcreme too help your skin when using soap.
kevin1989,
What kind of soap? Liquid dishwashing detergent like Dawn?
https://www.google.com/search?q=dawn+dish+soap&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=sinv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJy9Gr2bXoAhVBgK0KHQWdCp4Q_AUoAnoECBQQAg&biw=414&bih=606&dpr=3#imgrc=LhsGeGrSSZ8KLM
… or bar soap 🧼?
LOL 😆
Ten Bears,
That’s a GREAT one!
So, I really just realized that the main reason the gov’t wants us to shelter in place is to save the hospitals. They want to avoid the run on the hospitals. It’s not necessarily to prevent us all from getting it eventually. But the problem is that as Sansa said, ”
Sansa: How much do we have?
MW: 4,000 bushels, my lady.
S: What does that mean?
LR: For the current occupants of the castle, it’s enough food for a year, perhaps more.
S: And what’s the longest winter in the past hundred years?
MW: Uh, I’m not entirely certain. I’ll check Maester Luwin’s records. He kept a copy of every raven scroll.
S: You’re telling me we don’t have enough food, especially not if the armies of the North come back to defend Winterfell?
MW: No, my lady, most likely not. “…
So even at Winterfell, they couldn’t survive a siege forever. In the USA there’s plenty of food, but society breaks down at a certain point when people can’t work and they have no income to buy supplies. The Gov’t can send some money, but it’s never going to be enough to pay for 350 million people to live for long periods of time.
If we’re waiting for a vaccine before people can go back to normal, that could be over a year inside.
I think the decision is how long of a long night is long enough before the hospitals won’t be overrun. I don’t think they have an answer. In fact, I heard the doctors saying we need herd immunity, which means that lots of folks have to get the virus before it will go away. And eventually in more than a year they will have a vaccine (for next season).
So, I don’t know if it’s as cut and dry as if we let people out people will die. Yes, I might die as well. I’m a year away from the high risk group. But at some point you have to go out and say “not today”. It’s just a matter of when that day is. Easter seems too soon, but I don’t know how much difference another month makes on the hospitals being overrun. Maybe it does make a huge difference, but in the end, people have to get back out there or they may be like the lords dying in their castles for other reasons. Ok I can see the arrows coming at me…. but I was thinking alot about this yesterday, and it really just dawned on me that the main reason for sheltering in place was the hospital overrun and not necessarily to keep us from all getting it.
New tinfoil theory: GRRM started world-wide virus to give himself time to write:
Favourite comments from thread:
😆
Here’s another GoT-related, fun movie (featuring Mark Addy, aka King Robert):
The Full Monty (1997)
—-
Mark Addy as Dave:
“Anti-wrinkle cream there may be,
but anti-fat bastard cream there is none.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unHyQfN0ucg
——-
kevin1989,
kevin1989,
Apparently any soap is good, hand soap, bar soap, fancy soaps, dish soap etc. Hand sanitizer is good for when you can’t wash your hands but do so as soon as you cannot 20-30 seconds. 👍🏻
Tron79,
“In fact, I heard the doctors saying we need herd immunity, which means that lots of folks have to get the virus before it will go away…
***
Ok I can see the arrows coming at me…. but I was thinking alot about this yesterday, and it really just dawned on me that the main reason for sheltering in place was the hospital overrun and not necessarily to keep us from all getting it.”
No arrows, Mance.
If (when) hospitals are overrun, non-COVID patients will die, along with doctors and nurses. Then we’re truly f*cked.
Orange Walder already squandered two months that could’ve been spent nipping the problem in the bud. Now he’s intimating that we should just let millions of people join the Army of the Dead. F*ck ventilators. F*ck respirators. F*ck grandma and grandpa. Save the Dow!
🤬
Adrianacandle,
I’m not sure Pitch Perfect 2 makes any one of my lists, but I did enjoy Birgitte H-S (Karsi in GoT S5e8) in a comedy/song and dance role.
————
from Pitch Perfect 2
The Kommisar (Karsi) & Beca
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=195eZr56-F0
—
Das Sound Machine (starring Karsi) – “Fire” Song
“So light ’em up, up, up
Light ’em up, up, up
Light ’em up, up, up
I’m on fire!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzccYDfVWqQ
——
Tron79,
… I should add – in partial agreement with your conclusion but for slightly different reasons – that after weeks or months in seclusion, I fear that many people will just throw up their hands, venture out, and dare the God of Death: “Not today.”
Or alternatively, channeling S4e10 Sandor:
“F*ck it. I’m ready.”
This is a good tip! Most (including myself) wash hands for like 5 seconds or so before rinsing and drying. 30 seconds seems like forever but the CDC explains why 15-30 seconds of washing cleanses microbes and germs from your hands 🙂
I love those clips! I’d say the Pitch Perfect movies makes my comfort-movie list, wait– Karsi is in Pitch Perfect 2?! Omg, she is!!
Those are good clips XD
Somebody (not here) said that as secondary bacterial infections can follow if one’s system is weakened by Covid-19 bacterial killing hand sanitisers could be useful there.
I liked The Wire though I had to wait till it was on a terrestrial channel to watch it.
I suppose there is no harm done if people like ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ as long as they remember it isn’t particularly true to history. I don’t want to watch it – I suppose similarly to how some people wanted to stop watching GoT when they veered away from the book Dorne plot. Then (although I was only a little girl when I first watched it) I did like the Charles Laughton film about Henry VIII which didn’t tell a 100% accurate tale about Henry VIII. So I myself have liked some films that weren’t necessarily true to history. I’ll give the Sybilla actress a pass on her accent in KoH as the nobles in Outremer did speak with a variant of the Norman French accent. It’s a bit strange when a naturally blonde actress is playing the part of a historical blonde (pictures I’ve seen of Sybilla depict her as blonde) noblewoman with dyed dark hair but that could be down to the director/producer I suppose.
Yeah. And the danger could be from within. My wife today said she wasn’t talking to me. I asked if I did something or I didn’t do something and she said she’s not talking to me about it. The longer we are shut in it’s going to be interesting. I honestly have no clue what I did but that could be the problem!
Yes! That’s Karsi in Pitch Perfect 2 as “the Kommisar” (of the Bellas’ rival group, Das Sound Machine).
Hard to believe that’s the same actress who portrayed the valiant Wildling chieftainess in “Hardhome” – and was the runaway winner of the WotT Award for Best Guest Actress of Season 5.
She’s unrecognizable as the snarky blonde German singer in Pitch Perfect 2 who’s so attractive to Beca she can’t help complimenting her when she’s trying to criticize her. 🥰
Adrianacandle,
After rewatching the Pitch Perfect 2 clips (in my 10:34 am comment) and the “Hardhome” scene (in my 8:32 am comment) back to back…
I’m still finding it difficult to accept that the same actress who played the Komissar also played Karsi!
did anyone notice this thread might have been the longest thread anywhere since GoT ended without half of the comments fighting about whether the ending was ok or not? corona is pushing us to things we couldn’t have imagined a year ago. like, helping each other, acting responsible, understanding the difference between experts and loudmouths, not categorizing D&D into “br*ll*ant” on one side and “worst job ever” on the other. did anyone notice?
“there is only one reality that matters. and it’s here.” (Dr. Fauci, expert)
anyway, i add another two recommendations.
and as we cannot get enough of comedy these days, and surely not of Peter Dinklage:
Tron79,
“So, I really just realized that the main reason the gov’t wants us to shelter in place is to save the hospitals. They want to avoid the run on the hospitals. It’s not necessarily to prevent us all from getting it eventually.”
Forgive me to jump in the discussion. At first, I also had the same thought. “they’re only protecting themselves; they’re doing it for the healthcare system”.
Then the doctors in Italy went public on our TV and said specifically that they are keeping the older people out of the ICUs because they have to put the younger people in them. They have to give the younger generations, meaning those who are in their 40s, 50s or 60s a chance, even if that means that 70 year old people will die. And so they do, in Italy, in Spain and elsewhere.
The truth is that no country, no matter how large, rich, or powerful, has enough ICUs to help all people who will get sick and keep them from dying an agonizing death.
A doctor from Spain said last night that they keep the older people out, sedate them, and then hold their hand as they die because they have no one of their own near them.
So this is not for the doctors not working too much, or not wanting to overburden the system.
It’s for us to stay safe and healthy. It’s for our chance not to die.
One of our doctors said in yesterday’s press conference (there’s one every day) that the ICUs do not cure people. The ICUs basically keep the main organs from failing, in this case, the lungs, and provides them with air for avoiding suffocation and buys them time while the inflicted fight the disease on their own. They’re trying combinations of medicine on each of the patients, but since no cure has been found yet, there’s not much they can do apart from what they’re doing already.
All this put things in the right perspective for me. The point is to not get the virus; if we do (heaven forbid) and we get sick, then we’d like for the system to be in a position to support us, and our own, no matter the age.
Now that the virus is spreading it’s clear that younger people are not safe either. 18-20 year olds died (not to mention 40y-o, that’s established already), and in the US a minor. (so they said, I don’t know if it’s true).
Better to be safe than sorry.
Also, I have to wonder. Boris will go down in history as the one who allowed for the royal family to be infected. Wtf?
(or perhaps I shouldn’t wonder that much; Merkel is quarantined)
Adrianacandle,
Well, the Olympics already moved to 2021…
Ten Bears,
Any type of soap will do. That for dish washing is also very good. And you can always check the internet to see how to make handsanitizer yourself. It’s very fashionable over here, because anti-bacterial soaps and liquids are exhausted. Also, our pharmacist made handsanitizers himself. Perhaps yours does too.
GRRM SPREAD VIRUS TO POSTPONE THE OLYMPICS TO GIVE HIMSELF MORE TIME!
(On a serious note: Yeah, I saw that… 🙁 I really feel for everybody who spent so much time, training, and money making preparations)
Ten Bears,
“Your sweat smells like cinnamon!…. Dammit!”
Anna Kendrick and Birgitte Hjort Sørensen were both great in those scenes!
She made me a bit flustered as well… 😉
I know! She’s awesome!!
Efi,
Re: sheltering in place:
“It’s for us to stay safe and healthy. It’s for our chance not to die.”
Thank you for stating this so succinctly!
I’ve shut myself in, partly because I want to be a good citizen and don’t want to be a “spreader.”
Selfishly though, I do NOT want to get sick. I have a very low threshold for pain and discomfort. Even if I’d get “mild” symptoms, I would most certainly not enjoy a hacking cough, fatigue, shortness of breath, etc.
I’m a whinger, not a trouper.
Dying wouldn’t be a picnic either. It’s not as if you drift off peacefully. Drowning in my own fluids is right up there with what Mance called “a bad way to go.” 🔥
Survival after an extended stay in ICU (assuming there’d be a bed and ventilator available) with scarred lung tissue and other permanent damage – nope, that’s not palatable for me either.
This 3/18/20 New York magazine narrative was enough to scare the sh*t out of me. (I’ve posted this before. Let me warn again: Parts are kind of graphic.)
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html
So yeah, I do not want to die. I do not want my brothers and sisters or their children to die. I do not want to be the one who spreads the virus to other people and their families, and causes them to die. And I do not want to suffer either.
Sitting on my ass and being bored out of my mind (or watching movies and reading books) – that’s not so terrible compared to the alternative.
– End unintended rant –
Ten Bears,
Bar soap. or Liquid handsoap like: https://www.amazon.com/Softsoap-Liquid-Hand-Fresh-Breeze/dp/B079FV6PRH
Never use soap that you use for either dishes or your clothes, it really is bad for your skin. But if you don’t have hand-soap better go for ones for dishes (if you do it with hand, never use dishwasher liquid) but make sure afterwards you use a handcreme.
Adrianacandle,
”Your sweat smells like cinnamon!…. Dammit!”
Anna Kendrick and Birgitte Hjort Sørensen were both great in those scenes!
She made me a bit flustered as well… 😉“
I’m still finding it difficult to accept that the same actress who played the Komissar also played Karsi!
“I know! She’s awesome!!“
Yes! Both actresses were fabulous in those scenes! And Birgitte Hjort Sørensen got the accents down perfectly for both roles.
One of my regrets about S8’s “The Long Night” is that we didn’t see any recognizable, deceased characters return as wights. (I was so hoping Lord Glover would be wightened so someone could bisect him and torch him…)
After seeing undead Karsi’s blue eyes snap open at the end of “Hardhome,” I had been hoping we’d see her again – vs. Jon Snow or Tormund. (Having Karsi’s daughters confront their wightened mom 🧟♀️ would’ve been too ghoulish for me though.)
kevin1989,
Thanks for the tip!
(And not surprisingly, the hand soap you linked is “Currently Unavailable” on Amazon.)
I’ll use Ivory or Safeguard bar soap. They’re fragrance-free. Moisturizing lotions make my hands feel greasy though.
Adrianacandle,
Do you like Reese Witherspoon? Another movie recommendation from me is on its way: A Reese Witherspoon movie that’s in both my Top Ten Favorites of All Time and my Guilty Pleasure movies lists.
While she deservedly won the Best Actress Oscar for “Walk the Line,” she should’ve gotten it for an earlier role – in a twisted take on Little Red Riding Hood.
(to be cont.)
Mango,
Space movies?
One of my favorites is the (underrated) “Alien Resurrection” starring Sigourney Weaver, Ron Perlman, Winona Ryder, and a bunch of good character actors.
Here’s a one of my favorite scenes. Slightly spoilerish, though it can kind of serve as an introductory synopsis of the movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxDfECfLlF8
—
Tron79,
Herd-immunity will take 8+ years for our country (with the resources we have). We need to do what China and South Korea did. They did a full lockdown (means only food stores and pharma are open.). They did this 2 months now they are slowly open the country from lockdown. I don’t know what I’m going to say is completely right but what I remember from what some virologist said from South Korea is that how the virus works is: Person A gets sick after a while he gets either better or he dies. Both cases the virus dies in that host. So to survive the virus needs to infect another virus before either the host dies or b the host is immune to the virus.
The lockdown helps because it stops that the virus can spread and infect others. If we know the time between getting the virus and the longest it takes for becoming immune. And we have a lockdown that is a bit longer than that, we can make sure the virus dies out because either everyone is dead who had the virus or is immune.
The only thing is this only works when you closed the borders until the whole world have done that. That means we can’t do flying until it is over everywhere. I think this method is also done with many outbreaks of Ebola where we quarentine the whole group where the infection is and wait out who survives.
This is why it’s important that everybody stays home unless you need to buy food or get medicine. I also hope that the medicines and vaccines we are producing will work and help a lot of people. The virus is bad (a friend of mine got it and it’s not pleasant and much worse than the normal flue, even for the mild version he had).
Adrianacandle,
hahaha brilliant.
MotherofWolves,
I only know from myself but I always get irritated and blistered skin when coming in contact with dishsoap. That’s why I think it works, it kills all the bacteria, but I don’t think it’s that good for your hands. I’m not a dermatologist. As for soap that we use for clothes (how is that called in english). I know that that can be use to destroy fungal nail (right word?) but that you need handcreme to soften the skin else it can give problems. So I only meant as: take care of your skin, it’s a shame if you wash your hands to get rid of the virus but in the end your hands are irritated from it.
Adrianacandle,
Luckily I already need to do that when at work. When at work I at least need to wash 3 times my hands and wrist, so I’m probably one of the few young man of 30 who use handcreme to make sure my hands keep healthy.
Dame of Mercia,
Thank you, now I understand the handsanitizer hoarding. But we get so much information lately that somehow I can’t really keep things seperated what was said.
Also the big news outlet on tv state something of an advice. If you notice you read the news too much. Keep your phone at the outlet the whole day. Don’t touch it. Overload of news can make you depressed and feeling more isolated. I like that they did that.
Tron79,
Oh boy Tron. What did you do? Was it a special day that you forgot? Maybe wedding day? Maybe you said something in your sleep?
Maybe ask some woman here what to do.
I think trying to get it out of her won’t help. Maybe try to make her day more comfortable like, giving her some space and maybe putting her favorite chocolates on the table for her, show her you give her room but still are there for her when she needs you.
Is it a bit like this tron?
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/95/c6/28/95c62857e7ab7009b55f75113dd9805b–the-day-the-ojays.jpg
But I hope your wife feels better soon.
Efi,
I didn’t knew that yet about the doctors making a choice. Damn that literally just made me have tears in my eyes. That’s the hardest decision a person can ever made, making that choice, and it’s happening now. Also that family members can’t say goodbye that was even here, you can’t touch the love one who has passed away. I remember when my grandparents all died who I had a great bond with, one thing that helped me with the grieving process was that I could touch them and say goodbye to them. The though that people can’t do that, well that just breaks my heart. It’s not only losing a loved one, it’s losing a proper way of saying goodbye.
Ten Bears,
Stay healthy ten bears (and everyone here).
What do we say to the god of death? 🙂 :'(
Ten Bears,
Ow yes it was more for visual reference. But try to buy one with a pump. That way you can use one hand under it. Use your wrist to push it in (most people have I think a sweater that still remains over the wrist tis time of year I think). That way your hands won’t touch the bottle. This way is how I do it.
Also the RIVM here say best to use paper towels so you can throw them away.
death by chickenfire,
”…did anyone notice this thread might have been the longest thread anywhere since GoT ended without half of the comments fighting about whether the ending was ok or not?”
I had not noticed. I’m glad you did. Good observation!
”Corona is pushing us to things we couldn’t have imagined a year ago. like, helping each other, acting responsible, understanding the difference between experts and loudmouths, not categorizing D&D into “br*ll*ant” on one side and “worst job ever” on the other. did anyone notice?”
At the risk of sounding like I’m trivializing an existential threat by alluding to GoT, I can’t help but think back to Davos’s speech to Lyanna Mormont in S6e7 about “our war” being more important than “a few squabbling houses,” how there’s no escaping this threat, and how fighting it “together” is paramount.
Similarly, after acknowledging each side’s long-standing enmities and prejudices, when Jon Snow and Tormund addressed the Wildling chieftains in S5e8 (which I linked and cited above) they implored them to focus on the big picture: survival.
We’re all facing this once-in-a-generation global threat. It kind of renders insignificant the debate over “I’m forever grateful for the brilliant Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss” vs “”I’m disappointed D&D f*cked up the ending.”
There’s no silver lining to this worldwide clusterf*ck. At least it’s bringing out some of our common humanity. Hopefully, it will signal the beginning of a rejection of the anti-science, wealth-hoarding, xenophobic, “f*ck you, Snowflake” mindset that’s infected too many people.
“Helping each other” has somehow become looked down upon. “Personal responsibility” has become a dog whistle for “You’re on your own; it’s your problem if you can’t take care of yourself” (or as pre-remorseful Sandor Clegane said, “He’s weak. He can’t protect himself…Dead men don’t need silver.”)
Though I’m not old enough to remember the 60’s, my older brother indoctrinated me in its optimistic, egalitarian worldview. I thought we’d build on that and progress from there. Instead, a dog-eat-dog, misanthropic selfishness emerged.
How did that happen?
I’m a bit late for the answer, but I’ve just finished season 2, the one centered at the port. Ainda Gillen appears from season 3 onwards. This rewatching has been good to notice some things that I didn’t at the first time. And I know that Jimmy McNulty was approached to be Mance Rayder. His Mance would have a physical appearance more in line with the one in the book. Ciaran Hinds was very good though.
AnnOther,
Good choice to be your top series of all time. Mine are The Wire, Breaking Bad and GoT. I don’t like to put one over the others. It’s good that you mentioned The Departed. It’s one of my favourite movies as well. The best one from Scorsese in XXI century IMO.
kevin1989,
[About liquid hand soap]: ”Oh yes it was more for visual reference. But try to buy one with a pump. That way you can use one hand under it.”
Unsurprisingly, a few hoarders have wiped out the stocks of hand soaps and disinfecting wipes. Stores post large signs in their windows that they have none of these items. Again, more of the “f*ck you, I got mine” mindset where a selfish few disregard the needs of the many.
A handful of stores got it right, and I hope others follow their lead:
On the shelves for hand sanitizers, they‘ve posted price signs, e.g.:
“$2.99 for one. Two or more for $39.99 each.”
🤓
Ten Bears,
Agree with that Ten Bears in the end those debates don’t really matter do they.
Tiago,
Great season the dock. The smuggling season.
Yes I agree, I think that he would have been an amazing Mance, I think he can also sing. But still I’m happy with Cirian hinds, we can be grateful to have had such a great actor playing Mance Rayder. I think what Cirian Hinds did right was portrait Mance personality, I really feel what Mance made Mance in the books was also in the portrial of Cirian Hinds.
Tiago,
There seems to be a consensus that “The Wire” was an amazing show. ✅Added to my “To Watch” list. Same with “Breaking Bad.”
kevin1989,
”I didn’t knew that yet about the doctors making a choice. Damn that literally just made me have tears in my eyes.”
It’s a day or two away from happening in New York City, and it will soon happen here in Florida too. 😖
Ten Bears,
They both are amazing.
Ten Bears,
I hope it won’t get that bad in any part of the world. I really hope they can keep control in NY and that the measurements did it’s work and that it will give it’s result before it comes to that 🙁
kevin1989,
Somebody withheld money from Ukraine to extort personal, political favors. That somebody ignored warnings of the approaching pandemic for two months. That somebody has been withholding federal aid to New York for testing, respirators, ventilators and protective gear – whether out of vindictiveness, delusions, or selfishness.
People are going to die as a result.
Down here in Florida, the lack of testing snd failure to lock down – while allowing Spring Breakers, tourists and dummies to congregate and party on beaches, in pubs, and in airports – is going to cause a massive eruption in Coronavirus cases over the next two weeks. Italy 2.0.
I wish I had reason to be optimistic. 😣
kevin1989,
So “The Wire” and “Breaking Bad” were amazing?
I’ll have to see how many total hours of binge-watching I can get out of them.
I was a latecomer to Game of Thrones. I binge-watched Seasons 1 to 3 when I was laid up in bed, looking for a distraction, and HBO was having its pre-Season 4 marathon. I figured I’d have a look and see what the hoopla was all about.
As soon as that little girl zinged the arrow into the bullseye and took a bow, I was hooked. Thirty waking hours later, I was all better and ready for the premiere of Season 4.
Needless to say, I was not disappointed with the season premiere, “Two Chickens” — I mean “Two Swords.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwQAZ7_SjgU
I hope “The Wire” and “Breaking Bad” will be as engrossing.
Yes exactly that picture! She never did tell me today and she had the same look as the picture so I was on edge all day too. Stress is building. She’s checking things out online most of the day with things such as the best way to return from the grocery and disinfect everything… she’s making her own DIY masks (which are actually pretty creative!). I’m sure it will come out at some point what I did or didn’t do. I didn’t push things at this point. She usually writes me a long email eventually, but nothing popped up today.
Oh, Tron! Oh, that picture! I feel for you, dude.
I’ve… done that…
Oh man, that’s stressful.
Tron79,
• If it’s any consolation, you’re not alone. Most couples I know are not used to being together 24/7 in the same place. They tell me that the time they are used to spending apart each day (e.g., at work) would make them look forward to their evenings together. Now that’s all gone, and little idiosyncrasies they overlooked in each other before, are now grating on them big time.
• [This is NOT directed at you]: My best friend is an attorney specializing in family law. He had to shut down his office. He’s concerned his business will dry up.
I told him not to worry. I assured him that in a week’s time, he’ll start to get a flood of new divorce cases from clients who’ve realized they really can’t stand their spouses and can’t bear to be around them for another minute.
• This is a new reality for couples and families. I’m not sure anything could prepare any of us for this abrupt change from normal life to indefinite isolation.
• Some of my married friends have said four hours of “alone time” for each of them per day helps soothe their nerves. If they have kids, they take turns watching them. I have no idea if this is a workable long-term solution.
• If I’m being too forward please forgive me: Does your mate know what a good writer you are? I’d be thrilled if my spouse wrote stories with a semi-fictionalized version of me as the protagonist.
Done what?
Ten Bears,
Thanks to you and those clips, I’m watching Pitch Perfect now. Singing Karsi has it all.
Who can blame Beca?
Beca: Okay, just because you are making me sexually confused does not mean that you are intimidating me! We have nothing to lose! We have literally nothing to lose!
Beca: You are physically flawless.
Kommissar: Thank you.
Beca: But it doesn’t mean I like you!
Kommissar: Have you abandoned your foolish plans to face us at World’s?
Beca: Sorry to disappoint you, you– gorgeous specimen!
Kommissar: Thank-you.
Beca: She’s really in my head.
Agreed. And it would have been nice to see Karsi making a second appearance, reminding Jon and Tormund of Hardhome and the losses there.
YES! I’ve watched Pleasantville, Cruel Intentions (with a Buffy-era Sarah Michelle Gellar!), and Legally Blonde way too many times because of her!
Refused to talk to somebody while giving them these looks from Kevin’s meme here… All day…
It must definitely be stressful for the target of such looks.
I’ve probably lost points for that, pushing me ever closer to the Bad Place (Good Place reference! A GOOD SHOW.)
(I did laugh way too hard at that picture though. Good find, Kevin!)
Adrianacandle,
At 5:37 pm yesterday, I asked…
”Do you like Reese Witherspoon? Another movie recommendation from me is on its way: A Reese Witherspoon movie that’s in both my Top Ten Favorites of All Time and my Guilty Pleasure movies lists.
While she deservedly won the Best Actress Oscar for “Walk the Line,” she should’ve gotten it for an earlier role – in a twisted take on Little Red Riding Hood.
(to be cont.)“
———————-
Here’s the recommendation…
Caveat: It was one of those love it or hate it movies. Now it’s becoming a cult classic, primarily because a young Reese Witherspoon was so dynamic in it. I think she was 18 or 19 when she filmed it.
The movie is…
Freeway (1996), written and directed by Matthew Bright
Starring:
• Reese Witherspoon as white trash teenager Vanessa Lutz
• Kiefer Sutherland as child psychologist Bob Wolverton
Co-starring:
Amanda Plummer as Vanessa’s hooker mom, Ramona
Bookeem Woodbine as Chopper, Vanessa’s fiance
Brooke Shields as Bob’s wife Mimi Wolverton
Michael T. Weiss as Vanessa’s crackhead stepfather, Larry
Dan Hedaya, as Detective Wallace, heading the search for “the I-5 Killer”
Wolfgang Bodison as Detective Breer, Wallace’s partner
Brittany Murphy as Rhonda, a heroin aficionado and jailhouse ally of Vanessa
Alana Ubach as jailhouse gang leader Mesquita [Alana Ubach also co-starred with Reese Witherspoon in “Legally Blonde” as Elle Woods’s ditzy sorority friend].
Here’s a clip of Siskel & Ebert reviewing “Freeway” [“Two thumbs up”]. They both commend the performance of young Reese Witherspoon.
The review is kind of spoilerish…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ulBqBhWf-g
(I may post a few clips from the movie itself in a little while.)
Adrianacandle,
I was typing while you were replying.
Anyway, “Freeway” was before Reese Witherspoon became a big star. She’s a hoot in it.
I liked her in “Legally Blonde,” and I liked her in “Cruel Intentions” partly because I crushed on Selma Blair when she was in “Hellboy.” I was not too enamored with “Pleasantville.”
Ten Bears,
“Freeway,” Clip #1 of 4.
[Spoiler warning. Plus graphic language and content.* ⚠️]
Vanessa (Reese Witherspoon) in car with Bob Wolverton (Kiefer Sutherland).
(9 1/2 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RchALwE0AAg
—————
* If you were okay with GoT S5e10
, you’ll be okay with this. 🗡👸🏻
Ten Bears,
“Freeway” Clip #2 of 4
(Spoiler warning ⚠️)
Vanessa (Reese Witherspoon) with detectives.
5 min 33 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_N2oFAmnpM
Vanessa: “Well y’all can all just take a big old f*cking cruise ‘cause I took full on care of that piece of sh*t.”
Detective Breer: “Mr. Wolverton is in critical condition. But he isn’t dead.”
Vanessa: “Oh yeah right. I shot him so many times.”
——
Ten Bears,
“Freeway” Clip #3 of 4
(Spoiler warning)
Courtroom scene excerpt
(1 min 28 seconds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUo7mjW2D3M
Public Defender: “Are you out of your mind?”
Vanessa: “You are so ugly, Bob!
Ten Bears,
“Freeway” Clip #4 of 4
(Spoiler warning ⚠️ )
Vanessa seeks to generate funds
3 min 18 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guCePlNQM0U
Vanessa: “Because I’m pissed off and the whole world owes me. Now gimme your goddamn money!”
———
Needless to say, Reese Witherspoon’s foul-mouthed Vanessa is not the bubbly Reese Witherspoon in “Legally Blonde” or the innocent good girl in “Cruel Intentions.”
This is a really good article on the only real proven way to beat the Corona Virus, https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56
Essentially those countries who are putting their economies first (or led by idiots) like the US, Brazil and to a lesser extent UK/Netherlands will suffer the worst from this. The only real thing we can do is lockdown and perform mass testing then gradually reopen with a staggered restart. It will take weeks, if not months for most places but Italy is now showing results two weeks after their lockdown and China is almost back to normal five weeks after theirs so we know it works.
Ten Bears,
I don’t particularly like Reece Whitherspoon. However, her Legally Blonds are great. If I have a guilty pleasure list, it’s in it! 😀
I also like those movies with dancing. (Not so much Dirty Dancing though)
Flash Dance though…
Efi,
Unbelievable! I found an Italian traslation! lol 😂
Let’s say it’s a tribute to our Italian friends who are battling against the disease right now.
Tron79,
The safest way to get through this situation is to tell her that you love her and that you’ll wait for her anger to go away and explain to you what is it that you’ve done so that you apologize properly, or talk it away as you should as a couple.
When in a situation like this it’s best to show her your emotions, thus appealing to hers.
In other words, you humble yourself. It’s the most meaningful thing to do in a loving relationship.
[my brother always does that, and they have some serious problems; it works every time]
kevin1989,
It’s heartbreaking and the more you watch it on the news the more it becomes unbearable.
As I’ve said earlier, my country is one that took measures at about the same time Italy did, a month ago already.
Congresses/social events have been cancelled all over the country
The carnival festivities were cancelled
There are no sports games
Schools/universities shut down, it’s already twenty days
Commercial shops shut down apart from farmacies, supermarkets and groceries stores, twenty days
Then they closed down organized beaches and skiing centers 🤣
Public services work only with the bear minimum of their staff
Most are working from home in private businesses and the public sector, already from the beginning of this thing
They restricted the number of people that could enter the supermarkets, it’s already two weeks (1 client for every 10 s.m., then it became 1 for every 15 s.m)
The borders are officially closed since last week. The major air companies of the country have suspended flights to and from other countries unless the state requests their help to bring back natives.
Churches are also closed. No liturgies (and we’re in the midst of Lent)
Natives return only after the embassies’ mobilization abroad; our planes bring them back and then they are confined to hotels until they are ckecked negative for the virus. If they are checked positive (which they have, mostly returning from Spain and England) their quarantine continues either in the hotels or in their homes. The comittee for infective diseases monitors them; those that have been found positive and, despite instructions, have been found to have left their confinement have been fined 5000 euros each. (several did).
Since this Monday, all meaningless movements have been banned. Literally. This is how it works:
There is a 5-digit number, and a catalogue of permitted activities, specifically:
– going to work
– going to the pharmacy/doctor
– going to supermarkets/groceries
– to the bank
– to provide aid for someone who needs it (e.g. an elder, relative or not)
– to go to a ceremony (e.g. a funeral; my mom’s cousin died, only the close family attended though; large gatherings are not allowed for any reason since the beginning of March)
– to exercise/walk the dog; if in twos, then the two need to be two meters apart.
– to go home once (as in, you live somewhere else and you must reach your home after your journey)
So, for moving, we need to send a message to this number, stating reason of movement, name and address and get the permission by sms on our phone.
In case people don’t do this, the police can fine them. It’s been raining fines since Monday, 150 euro per person. There’s police roadblocks e v e r y w h e r e.
And, there’s more.
You can always order a delivery; they bring your order to your building door but won’t come up; you have to go down and take whatever it is you’ve ordered. I ordered shoes ( 😉 they are never enough) and books, I had to go down.
Entire villages have been quarantined.
It looks bleak. For me, that I am a historian, this phenomenon is certainly interesting. (unfortunately, images/reports from Italy and Spain, soon from France do remind me of my sources describing past plagues)
And then there’s always the imbeciles with two functionning brain cells that don’t get it.
Someone told me yesterday “I don’t give a flying sh*t if you get sick”.
For some reason, I know it was the most honest thing to hear from that person. In my age you really understand who cares about others and who’s in it only for himself. And that person knows I’m in the high risk groups. (Sigh)
So, TB, you’re doing well to protect yourself, because people like the above surround us. It’s not even about being afraid to get sick. It’s about not wanting to risk it.
All good points. I write more about my daughter. She’s the one that seems to fit the Alice in Wonderland and Arya unique Don’t call me a lady model. She’s home too but she’s used to being in her room most of the time. Anyway thanks for the good thoughts. We will get through things somehow. Some also is I’m doing a lot of Facebook live and zoom things from home for the synagogue and it’s a bit frustrating we are running a tv station from home too.
Good advice. Thanks Efi
Tron79,
Here are some tips for surviving self-isolation from a recent Washington Post article. There are five tips. I only excerpted the text for #4 (“Plan for the future,” i.e., visualizing better times to come rather than focusing on those you’ve already lived) because the rest seemed obvious. I’ve included the link to the article if anyone is interested in reading the whole thing.
“I survived solitary confinement. You can survive self-isolating.”
by Jason Rezaian
March 24, 2020 Washington Post
—-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/24/i-survived-solitary-confinement-you-can-survive-self-isolating/
Imprisoned in Iran, Jason Rezaian had to cope with panic and anxiety. In this video, he shares how these lessons apply to the fear of coronavirus today.
———
“Over the past several days, as many people began confronting the reality that they’d have to stay holed up at home for the foreseeable future, friends around the world reached out to me for advice. They wanted tips on how to deal with prolonged social isolation.”
“Suddenly my own experience of being held for 544 days, including in solitary confinement, in Iran’s Evin Prison has become more relevant than I ever imagined possible.”
“While the self-imposed isolation we’re going through is vastly different from the harsh conditions of prison, prolonged captivity did teach me a few useful lessons about how to make the best of it. So here are a few pieces of advice:
#1. Don’t spend all your time online…
#2. Read books …
#3. Exercise …
#4. Plan for the future
“There were many days in prison that I thought it would never end. You may feel something similar in the weeks ahead, or you might have that feeling already. But this will pass. Maybe it won’t happen as quickly and as smoothly as President Trump likes to insist — but relatively soon we’ll be able to return to our normal routines.
Think about what you want that to look like — where you’ll go and who you want to be with. In uncertain times like these, few things are more comforting than thinking about better times. I suggest focusing on the ones to come rather than the ones you’ve already lived.”
#5. Laugh…
———-
Efi, I’ve twice lost a post saying that person was out of order saying that to you. I messaged (not from this site) someone the other day trying to make peace and got a reply that they hadn’t bothered to read my message – well I tried. They did say for me to stay safe and well.
Tron, I hope an equilibrium returns to your family shortly.
I was supposed to have a delivery of antiseptic today – it’s 16.49 and nothing has come yet.
I’m getting off the subject of this thread. Who knows? Maybe as I type GRRM is describing Daenerys and her followers preparing to leave Essos for Westeros. (I try to be a glass half full rather than glass half empty girl [old trout] but who knows?).
Efi,
”I don’t particularly like Reese Witherspoon. However, her Legally Blondes are great. If I have a guilty pleasure list, it’s in it! 😀”
Well, if you have the time and you’re so inclined, and you don’t mind spoilers, check out the Siskel & Ebert review of “Freeway” and the four clips I linked above. Or maybe watch the full movie if you’re willing to invest the time and take a chance.
I can understand if you don’t particularly like Reese Witherspoon’s films except for the Legally Blonde movies. Some of her big budget Hollywood movies pigeonholed her into sanitized, goody two shoes roles.
I’d be curious to know what you think about the 18 or 19 year-old, pre-sanitized version of Reese Witherspoon as Vanessa in “Freeway.”
[P.S. If commenter JackBauer24 is still lurking around, I’d like to know what he thinks about Kiefer Sutherland vs. Reese Witherspoon in “Freeway.” 😝]
Ten Bears,
Thank you!!!
Efi,
Blasphemy I tell you! Sacrilege! Liking “Flashdance”…but not “Dirty Dancing”?
(J/K 🙂)
Dame of Mercia,
Thanks! It’s ok. I’m not particularly upset, or I was, but it was only because my righteousness was choking me. Anyway, it’s settled.
Some people just don’t get it.
It’s not about showing fear, but they think that conforming to instructions is all about that; they also think that the situation is not that serious.
I am not afraid. I’ve been through worse than most people. I can take a serious illness, I can take pain. I just don’t see why would anyone subject oneself to the possibility.
What would be the point to prove? That I’m brave? Lmao, I know I am, I don’t need to be stupid to prove it.
But I think that in this particular case there’s an underlying psychological situation that is manifest in this passive-aggressive behavior.
It’s of the type “I am not sick; I’ve been at home all these days; I cannot take your sh*t –I have more serious problems than this” and ends up with “why don’t you want to see me?”
Thus she (it’s a friend) turned the situation against me. Typical passive-aggressive. Of note, the “stayed home and safe part” is a lie which she blurted out in her effort to draw attention to herself once again.
When you see such behavior you immediately understand that this person doesn’t give a f*ck about you*. It’s always about them; what they want, what they need. You can go to hell and back, they don’t care about you. Hence the exclamation “I don’t give a sh*t if you get sick”.
Of course. I knew that. But I know this person a loooong time, so I wasn’t surprised, or hurt.
* And you don’t know if they ever will. On the surface it’s because of their psychological condition, but if that is tempered there is the possibility that they become a totally different person.
I’m sorry to hear this happen to you. I know you weren’t surprised or hurt but it sounds like such a sucky situation to me. I’ve had a similar thing happen to me about a year and a half ago. A friend I had known since I was in junior high cut me off over a disagreement. Several months later, we tried to work it out but when I was going through some hard times four months after that, I told her I will probably not be very responsive for the following month because of my difficulties but I will respond… she never talked to me again and was very chilly with me when I contacted her about a web domain issue. She made it clear I was cut off again. I think she was upset with me all over again.
It sucks. I confided in her so much over the years, we spent so much time together, had been through so much, but some of those words exchanged in our first confrontation before we tried to work it out — she revealed and said some pretty harsh stuff she had been stewing in. That was tough. I tried to fix it, alter myself in a way, but I couldn’t get that trust back for her again. And she couldn’t for me, it seems.
It sucks.
Ten Bears,
Shame on me! I’m one of THOSE persons!
To my guilty pleasure, I enjoy a good fairytale even though I’m a grown up and have no excuses anymore. Any version of Cinderella will do. Especially that one with what’s her name (can’t remember right now, no time to search for her) and I’m sure there’s a fairytale with Ann Hathaway and a wolf too. And there was another fairytale with Dr. McDreamy. That, too.
Anyway, this is a big hit where I’m from. Enjoy folks!
Adrianacandle,
I know. I’m sorry you went through that. Even though this is not a similar situation because there’s no way I can interrupt communication with that person (because of her condition), I know it’s painful.
But I’ve had a similar situation a few years ago –a huge misunderstanding and lots, lots of lies. I can’t forgive lies, much less so if the person who has lied to my face does not recognize it and treats me as if I’m an idiot. So it’s over. It was extremely painful because it was my best friend since second grade, but there’s no turning back. After I thought about it a lot, I’m in peace.
At one point in our lives we come to realize that not everything is as it was when we were younger. It’s not “fight and make up” because with time we all become different imo, so there’s things we can take as grownups and things we can’t. Each person has a different level of emotional intelligence and maturity, and if this isn’t close to another person’s, then a friendship or other type of relationship can exist only with great difficulty.
Of course this doesn’t mean that our own level is higher than anybody else’s; there’s always people who stand even higher. It takes a high level of emotional maturity to admit your mistake, apologize and fix it. We think we have it, but we can be immature too. So when others fail us in such a way I think it depends on the each situation what to do next, make up or cut all contact.
Efi,
”To my guilty pleasure, I enjoy a good fairytale even though I’m a grown up and have no excuses anymore. Any version of Cinderella will do. Especially that one with what’s her name (can’t remember right now, no time to search for her) and I’m sure there’s a fairytale with Ann Hathaway and a wolf too.”
Fairy Tales? Guilty Pleasures? Any version of Cinderella will do?
Alright then. Let’s start with…
“Ever After: A Cinderella Story” (1998) – Drew Barrymore, Dougray Scott, Anjelica Huston
Clip 1 of 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chBVj94zYDM
Clip 3 of 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J03lpGKZ0xc
—-
Efi,
…. Next up
——-
“Ella Enchanted”* (2004) Anne Hathaway, Hugh Dancy
Roadside
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STg2VaGDJuA
Ella sings “Somebody to Love”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN8hW7AeoQI
——
* Not my favorite; Anne Hathaway was really good though.
Efi,
… and Anne Hathaway again
The Princess Diaries” (2001)
Anne Hathaway, Julie Andrews
Full movie ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KmA7FaVPLU
—-
Makeover scene (3 min 33 sec)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUjlBP5gUrQ
———
Efi,
You may want to take a look at….
The Prince and Me” (2004)
Julia Stiles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2atr8aQ0zg
… I thought Julia Stiles was really good in this Guilty Pleasure move. She was smart and engaging.
[Warning! Do NOT watch “The Prince and Me 2.” An airhead actress with a Valley Girl accent took over the role played by Julia Stiles in the original. Not sure why Julia Stiles didn’t return. If I were to guess, I’d say it was because the script sucked.]
Efi,
Finally, although this isn’t really a fairy tale, how can we exclude….
“Clueless“ (1995)
Alicia Silverstone
Opening scene (4 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UOcp9ydcM0
Cher gets mugged (56 seconds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znsg-ysSAX8
Christian meets Cher’s dad
Ten Bears,
I consider both series amazing, although they’re structured in different ways.
BB has a plot much easier to follow, since everything that happens gravitates around the protagonist. It was slow at the beginning, however. I felt the show only lifted off at the penultimate episode of the first season.
The Wire is more alike GoT. It has a vast set of characters that shows you different angles of that universe. In my first viewing, it was quite hard to know who is who, as the story progressed slowly. Don’t be surprised if you feel bored in the first episodes. I felt it myself. If you can get along with it, you don’t want to stop.
I’ve felt exactly the same thing when I started watching GoT. My viewing experience was similar to yours: I binge-watched the first three seasons in june and july 2013 in the channel which broadcast the series here, Syfy. I heard about the show, knew some friends who have seen it and gave it a shot. I was unsullied. I didn’t know the characters or the plot. For me, the show only entered in its full steam mode in “The wolf and the lion”. I knew I wouldn’t stop watching since then. I think I rewatched the first three seasons three or four times before season 4 airing. It was a exhilarating experience. Maybe that’s why I consider season 3 my favourite one. I made the mistake of buying the first three books before season 4. Maybe that was the reason why I didn’t enjoy so much watching season 4 week after week. I liked it better on a rewatch.
Ten Bears,
Yeeees!
I swear I feel very guilty whenever I watch the princess diaries. Why do I like this movie so much? I had forgotten it was Anne Hathaway very, very young, but I liked her in Echanted too, very much.
And of course, the guiltiest of all is Cinderella with Drew Barrymore! I so enjoy that goof of a prince, lol.
And the prince and me was also very good. I’ve seen both.
I’ve seen clueless too but I don’t remember any of it, perhaps I should put it in the to-watch-during-the-lockdown list.
What is it with fairytales? I’m supposed to be an adult. Or my reality is really that bleak, I need an escape.
Ten Bears,
I know, and the worse thing is he wants the US back to work next week. Luckily he won’t get to do that.
Stay strong Ten Bears and US citizens and the rest of the world.
Ten Bears,
It are a bit more slow burn series, but the story is amazing of both.
Tron79,
I think it could be that she build up to much stress and emotion about the Covid-19 virus, with trying to stay strong.
And about looking thing online all day, best not do that. Listen to the who/CDC(or which institute does it in your country) and make sure you follow what they say. Too much what other say and you could do can stress you out, especially if it’s done the whole day. Look things up, make a to-do list about it.
That’s very creative making own mask. And I think in the end she will come to you about it.
Ten Bears,
Agree make sure you take alone time. And also space-time like: I want the room for 2 hours can you please stay in the kitchen/bedroom/office room. And after 2 hours maybe change rooms.
Adrianacandle,
You’re welcome, and how did you get the link like that, in the word meme?
Jon Snowed,
I agree, this method works the best, it’s what I also found this week what I talked about. With this we can make sure the virus dies out. If no new infections come, the infected are either immune after it and can’t give it to somebody else or they are unfortunate dead, but in that case they can also not infect others.
And also what some state in my country in the opposition, you maybe think about the money needs to keep flowing for the economy, but in the end what is happening now also cost a huge amount of money because we don’t do a full lock-down, and it takes longer this way until the virus is gone (well it won’t be gone and only getting worse I think). So in the end maybe this method even will cost us more than a full Lockdown.
As for the Hammer: Does that mean you are locked up for those weeks and food is delivered so now and then? or are supermarkets and pharma still open? I though China also left those 2 open, but you need mask when going outside to get food, but I could be wrong? Do you know that?
I mean as long as we can get our food and eat, and our medicine. I think people need to be fine with 5 weeks of lockdown, be happy that after those 5 weeks you and your love ones are probably all still alive because of the lockdown.
Efi,
Yes, I really try to avoid the new very much at the moment because else I think I will break down of all the bad things happening. I try to get an update once a week by watching 25 minutes of news in the evening.
What I try to do is keeping myself to the measurements, they are there for a reason. I even felled guilty today for going to the supermarket for getting some food because I aready was gone yesterday. Luckily now I had gotten food for 4 days. (I don’t have car or bike and only have a backpack so once it’s fuel it’s fuel and I can’t share too much because of upperback problems)
Same here off what is closed but still they should also closed the economical stores. People already have had enough time to get enough things at home like books, games, puzzles etc no need for them to be open. One of my friends still needs to work for a car-building company, only because it’s not closed because of economical reasons. And guess what there is where you get chance of an infection outbreak. Lot’s of people working in the same building, why is it still open? Only food and healthcare should be open.
Here also limits in supermarkets. You need to take a cart with you because it makes sure people keep their distances. Some other stores have the policy of get a basket like only this amount of baskets are available.
Here they also give fines for people who don’t keep their distances, and for good reason.
Same here with delivery.
I hope that someone is not somebody you are friends with?
Ten Bears,
Thanks. Also an advice from here (was on the TV somebody who did an research about staying at home, he needed to stay at home for 1 full year), at home means your own premises. Go to your garden or balcony and sit in the sun. The sun makes you happy because of vitamine D. You can feel the wind and more.
kevin1989,
”I know, and the worse thing is he wants the US back to work next week. Luckily he won’t get to do that.“
But he’s extorting New York City! He’s withholding desperately needed ventilators and protective gear. Because of his self-aggrandizing stunts, the greatest city in the country is facing an apocalypse.
Hundreds will die.
Stannis: “Thousands.”
”Stay strong Ten Bears and US citizens and the rest of the world.“
Florida’s next. It’s happening as I write. Our nitwit governor defied calls to close down beaches and tourist attractions, and has refused to order a lockdown. Unfortunately, there are lots of retirees down here, and many of them believe Orange Walder’s science-denying propaganda. They dismiss this deadly plague as a “hoax.” They’ve been dancing the foxtrot, throwing parties at Mar A Lago, and congregating in bingo halls like they don’t have a care in the world.
They’re going to start dropping like flies this weekend. The 🦠 has already been spreading like wildfire in nursing homes over the last 48 hours. Hospitals are going to overflow in less than two weeks.
There’s been no widespread testing. People don’t know if they’re infected yet asymptomatic. Doctors and nurses are going to get sick too.
The stupid visiting Spring Breakers, departing tourists, and disembarked cruise ship passengers have not only accelerated the rate of infection here; they’re spreading the contagion throughout the country. It’s a total clusterf*ck.
I’m not merely whinging.
(Voice of Sandor: “You’re fingers are moving and you’re complaining about something. That’s whinging.”)
While I’d like to “stay strong,” I can’t disregard the urgent warnings of real scientists, real doctors and real experts (as opposed to Cousin Orson 2.0 and his know-nothing dweeb son in law).
It’s unfathomable that it’s progressed this far so fast, but here we are. And here I am.
So Kev… Know any good movies to help me pass the next two months entombed in my home?
kevin1989,
Oh it’s not all bad. I’ve got enough model rocket building and painting supplies here to last five years as I regress (further) into my second childhood. 🚀
Binge-watching S1-S3 of Game of Thrones kept me immersed and distracted when I was laid up at home a couple of years ago. That’s why I’m looking to assemble a playlist of recommended movies, shows and books to keep me occupied for the next month or two.
Efi,
”And there was another fairytale with Dr. McDreamy. That, too.“
Are you referring to “Enchanted” (2007) with Patrick Dempsey and Amy Adams? I may have seen bits and pieces of it. I don’t remember. Was it any good?
Efi,
Efi said “What is it with fairytales? I’m supposed to be an adult. Or my reality is really that bleak, I need an escape.”
Efi, my own feeling is that as well as taking history as inspiration GRRM used elements from myth, legend and possibly traditional ballads for ASOIAF which may account for it appealing to a cross-section of people with various personalities. Some fairytales are quite dark (some of the Brothers Grimm ones were anyway). There’s a YouTube channel which covers the “Messed up Origins” of certain tales which can be interesting. I never warmed to the stories of Hans Andersen (sp?) when I was a child though I’ve been told they may have lost something in translation (the early translations anyway – being made from Danish to German and then from German to English).
I think I mentioned at some time that there are some online translations of various myths – I might have a look at some of those during the self-isolation. I find that some of the translations of myths are rather ‘dry’ though. I get confused as to the difference between a myth and a legend.
kevin1989,
I’ve found the news depressing from long before the Covid-19 outbreak. Sky News (they have a YouTube channel) offer, or at least were offering, two version of the news, the version with reference to Brexit and a variant without Brexit. I wonder what effect if any the coronavirus crisis will have on the implementation of the B-word.
Someone mentioned that there are people who believe the coronavirus is a hoax, or man made. It surprises me that people would think that way but it is true – not so much people I know in real life but I’ve seen some strange comments on forums. They seem to be people who think the world is flat, famous people are secret transgenders, vaccines are bad – that kind of thing. I listened to an episode about the coronavirus by an anti-conspiracy podcast “The Paranoid Strain” recently. I liked the podcast. Yesterday I listened to an upload of a BBC radio play based on the 1949 film “Kind Hearts and Coronets” (an Ealing comedy but a dark one).
Another thing I can try and do is try to get to grips with my Elonex (rather like Kindle’s less posh cousin). After all, I can’t go to the library to borrow books at present.
The hammer “or hard lockdown” essentially means everyone stays in home apart from critical workers (essentially emergency workers or those in food/pharmaceutical sectors). It’s happened in China, Italy and Spain and I believe France have a relatively hard lockdown too. I know in China one person per household was allowed out every 3 days to food shop but they had to wear a mask and there were temperature check points outside to ensure adherence and increase testing. Bottom line this is proven to work.
Here in the UK we have mixed messages, I’ve been staying and only going out 2-3 times a week (as I can work from home) but I can see people congregating in the streets, increased dog walking etc. There seems to be some push back with many people also going to work in construction and self-employed jobs and net result is our figures are likely to top Italy so we’ll probably get a harder lockdown later.
Ten Bears,
No, I wouldn’t recommend it, it’s just… McDreamy, you know?
I’d stick with Cinderella with Drew B., Enchanted, The Chronicles of Narnia, and Maleficent I and II.
Also, The Smurfs! (talk about guilty pleasure! 😊)
And the Asterix movies.
[at the end of Asterix and Cleopatra there’s a selection of football stars, where Zizou is the best: “I’ve got hair!” 😂]
Efi,
Yes. And it’s true, people do change, sometimes grow apart, and decide what they can tolerate vs. what they can’t. Anyway, thanks for your response 🙂 I’m sorry for what you’ve been through with your once-best-friend since second grade too. That’s rough 🙁
Tron79,
Easter’s the arbitrary target date.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbPQCJtnT6o
—
Ten Bears,
I really can’t see how people still are behind him. He is playing with the citizens of the US as if they are his chess pieces. His actions shows he really doesn’t care. The job of the president is to keep his citizens safe, which he fails to do and the worse part is it’s not because he can’t do, but that he won’t. As you said he is withholding life-saving attributes to NY.
Or even worse was the state Governor Dan Patrick who state that old people should sacrifice themselves for the economy and that he is will to do that, and even tries to state that that makes him a hero. How can it that people like that are Governor.
What? They are doing parties in Florida? The Governor should know better, it’s his job to keep the citizens safe. I hope that majors are having power to execute a lockdown themselves or at least extend some measurements?
Yes even with our measurements the amount of infected is getting higher, I hope it will drop this weekend. Luckily we have breathing machines that can help 2 people at once (can only be done in events like these because it’s not ideal but better than dying). Germany who could keep the death’s low is willing to help us if we need help. So I think next week we maybe are sending our patient to Germany. And they don’t even have a full lockdown, but the citizens listen and what also helped was that the German goverment didn’t think of money first. They tested everyone, so they could control who had it and don’t. Not like here that people are guessing if they had the normal flue or Carona. Luckily the testmaker Roche finally gave away how their test worked and now every hospital in the world can make the tests themselves instead of buying from them. That’s also something we should do, not keep solutions to ourselves so that we can make money of it, share every information we have with each other about medicines test etc.
Yes and the worse part is, the goverment makes it so that those stupid people can spread it. Give high fines, it seems to work here, even when people don’t agree with the measurements they are keeping themselves on the measurements for fear of the fines. Still I feel the fines are way to low. max 400,- per person which means less than half a month salary. It should be 2 months at least like they are doing in easter-Europe. fines like 1200,- are in place there.
You’re far from whinging. You’re expressing real concerns that will happen if the government doesn’t act. You listen to virologist and you see that the right measurements are not being set in place. What you are saying is what the government should be saying. At least you care for the situation and the citizens.
As for movies I don’t really know that much, it seems that you already watch a lot of good movies. But I maybe having a great tv-show that you probably like. It’s currently in it’s last season (Which contain 12 episodes) 8 are out and I’m on the fifth. And it’s heading into a great climax, it doesn’t fuck up it’s last season like GoT did.
It’s called homeland. It’s one of the best shows out there and ever made, characters are great, but the character moments are greatly interchanged with some high thriller scenes with great action. It shows like it really does look at current event and tries to be as accurate to the truth as possible. It’s about the war against terror.
Synopsis: Carrie Mattison a CIA operative gets information that a US soldier has been defected to the Islamic terrorist organisation Al-Quada from a Iraqi (if I remember the country right) prisoner who is about to be executed by Iraqi Soldiers. 3 months later the CIA rescued an American Soldier Nicolas Brody out of the hands of Al-Quada. Carrie is the only one who believe he is the US soldier who is gone over to Al-Quada. Is she right? What makes matters more difficult is that Carrie Mattison is carrying a secret of her own about her mental health that the CIA doesn’t know about, so that also raise the question if Carrie doesn’t delude herself on her quest to find the truth.
This is a bit of synopsis of season 1. The show will progress into more interesting parts, it doesn’t keep focusing only on the Islamic terrorist but also on Russian, Israeli influences in the war. The US goverment and other goverments and they do all this as truthfull as they can be. It also doesn’t show Muslim people as terrorist, they are showing two sides. They are also showing Muslims themselves are against the terrorist, the show doesn’t devide people. Also interesting in the show is Carrie Matisons character, her character is one of the most well written characters ever shown on television. I know a person with the condition of Carrie Matison and I see that they portrait it as close to how it is than any other show ever did.
As for do I have a trailer? No, the trailer doesn’t do justice to the show itself. So don’t look up a season 1 trailer, because they could do a well worth trailer because it would spoil to much.
Dame of Mercia,
People should just listen to the virologist instead of making up their own version of the events. They have the truth.
Jon Snowed,
Yes I’m all in for that. I mean as long as we can get food for 3 days and have our medicines, I think we will be fine for 5 weeks.
Efi,
McDreamy? You watch Greys anatomy?
Hey, just checking in to see how you’re doing? 🤞
Efi,
” Anyway, this is a big hit where I’m from. Enjoy folks!”
[Embedded music video of “I Got You” by Cocoon/Lola Marsh]
————
• I watched and listened. I had never heard of Lola Marsh. I thought at first that was the name of the female singer. (It’s the name of the band.)
I like her voice.
• 🐇🕳 ⚠️ Rabbit Hole Warning!
When I first clicked on the video and saw the title of the song, “I Got You,” I thought it was going to be a cover of the 1980 song of the same name by Split Enz, featuring a young Neil Finn (later of Crowded House).
…. Damn! Gotta jump off line. To be continued later with a bunch of links to interconnected songs spanning 36 years.
Ten Bears,
“There’s no silver lining to this worldwide clusterf*ck. At least it’s bringing out some of our common humanity. Hopefully, it will signal the beginning of a rejection of the anti-science, wealth-hoarding, xenophobic, “f*ck you, Snowflake” mindset that’s infected too many people.”
there is a silver lining. the tragedy is we don’t know how many of us will reach it. it depends on how long we can keep this surprising outbreak of empathy and sense of responsibility going on before too many people have the feeling of having contributed enough.
some seem to see lockdowns as some sort of game contest where it doesn’t matter if they just end on the mid section of the ranking. “hey, at least i followed the rules for one week. now i’d like to go back to normal life and have my easter days in a jampacked place full of people who are not alright with science by tradition…”
just one week ago i was happy how people here seemingly have understood what’s going on and what they have to do. today left me sobered. our biggest local forest was crowded with joggers, pairs holding their hands, bikers, families… and nearly none of them made any effort to give me the safe distance we all need to keep now. since my times as a forest worker, i never went into the bushes as many times as today.
these people will fuck it up. and they don´t mind. “well i do not belong to a risk group” is one of the statements from these potential virus launches i’ve heard a good dozen times today. when being dumb and being a sociopath meet, someone else has to take care of their grannies until death…
i see you are right. there is no silver lining. there’s a black line on black background, and i don’t even know where exactly it is. but i want all of us to get there.
For the US and some countries, this episode is unspeakably sad. Selfishness, moral corruption, incompetence, stupidity, dishonesty, graft – not only among the highest level of leadership but also among many regular folks.
What kinds of folk cannot restrain themselves from group/social activities for several weeks? What kind of country even considers choosing the economy over public health? What kinds of people support a morally decrepit poser?
It is sad.
Ten Bears,
How is the situation there Ten Bears? I hope you’re doing well.
Mango,
Look up what governor lt. Dan Patrick of Texas said about the situation. It’s just unspeakable what he said. I really can’t understand how he can be in power and be chosen as the protector of the people.
kevin1989,
I’d rather die destroying capitalism than die propping it up, myself!
Paradoxically, the most moral people of them all: Evangelical Christians! They also are the least ethical people in the world…..
“Karsi” isn’t the only one of the GoT alumni who has another string to her bow (singing) besides acting. Here’s a clip from 2013 of Carice van Houten singing. I think she has a pleasant voice (but horses for courses, that’s just my opinion). I’m not struck on what she’s wearing – but I have a dislike of skirts with strappy bit attached (because my uniform at senior school was in that fashion except the straps crossed over the back and buttoning at the waist rather than finishing at the shoulder). https://youtu.be/ZmMWKipihtY
Adrianacandle,
[re: your replies to Efi]
“Growing up, I did always enjoy a good Sandra Bullock and/or Hugh Grant romcom ;D (Two Weeks Notice, Miss Congeniality) and I have a huge guilty pleasure for the Pitch Perfect movies.“
• Did we mention “The Blind Side” as a Guilty Pleasure movie? Sandra Bullock won the Oscar for her performance. She made that movie eminently rewatchable.
———————
“But I swear next time I’ll hear a man repeating “you make wanna be a better man” I’ll do what Anne did to Gilbert in the quote above.”
Seriously? Get your own lines, guys. Be original.
*slate drop!!*
• I have not seen Anne of the Green Gables (?), so I am missing out on the reference.
I take it you are suggesting that Jack Nicholson’s line, “You make me want to be a better man” in “As Good As It Gets” is a rip-off of something said or done by Anne to Gilbert in “Anne of the Green Gables”?
…. Contrived Segue to…
• [Syrupy Spoiler Warning! ⚠️]
There is a similar line in one of my “Guilty Pleasure” movies:
“She makes me want to be different. Better.”
That’s from the movie, “A Walk to Remember” (2002). Formulaic? Probably. Predictable? Maybe.
Still, I thought (a young) Mandy Moore and Shane West were excellent.
Dame of Mercia,
Here’s Emilia Clarke singing, in “Dom Hemingway” (2013).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUH9R_aq53o
Here’s the full, 4 minute version of that song from the movie’s soundtrack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eyTT-fzI_M
——
Just reporting back. Thanks for all of the advice. I never did find out what my wife was going through but it worked out cuz I didn’t push it. Thanks Efi and others for the advice. I just asked her if there was anything I could
Do to help around the house. She didn’t come up with anything right away but eventually she gave me some things to do for her. And I tried to communicate more with what was going on with all my live zoom and Facebook live broadcasts for synagogue and just gave her more warning about what was coming up. I also helped her find a few items online she was struggling to get shipped. Anyway the mood has cleared and the key I think wasn’t to take it personally and try to put myself at her disposal. We are both very independent people so it actually takes effort to be more open and communicate more. We have been married 36 years partially because we are independent and have separate interests so we are not doing everything together. But opening up more definitely helps. Now if only she would become a GOT fan but no luck there so far. But she supports my obsession. She got me a cool tiny music box that plays the GOT theme and Jon Snows FUNKO figure stand on it to give him a little more height :). Everyone is staying healthy so far. My wife has been busy making DIY masks. Thanks again everyone.
Ten Bears,
Since “As good as it gets” the line has appeared in many movies and series; it is a good line. So I’m saying that it’s become really trivial. In the movie she walks out on him, because he f*cks up immediately after that.
But the movie is really enjoyable; it is very funny and tender and when it ends it leaves you with a sense of fulfillment. I strongly recommend watching it if you haven’t.
This is the scene (the longest version I found, with Spanish subtitles).
• Thanks for asking. I’m doing well. So far. (I shut myself in at home over three weeks ago. I listened to the scientists who were warning of the dangers, rather than the stupid politicians who were ignoring them.)
I worry about my family and friends, the under equipped doctors and nurses on the front lines, and everyone who’s going to suffer and die. It’s f*cking heartbreaking – and tragic – since most of the deaths were and will be avoidable.
And even after squandering two months of lead time, the governor here in Florida and Orange Walder in Washington are still depriving hospitals of ventilators and other life-saving equipment, while continuing to ignore the pleas of scientists and doctors. (How comforting that science-denier Mike Pence and slumlord Jared Kushner are in charge of the federal response. 👿)
• That moronic Lieutenant Governor of Texas, Dan Patrick, is both heartless and oblivious. Sacrificing 2% of the U.S. population for the sake of “the economy”? What a jackass. That would be millions of people.
Worse, his premise is based on the fallacy that the virus only kills the elderly. It’s becoming apparent that younger patients are dying too. And it seems that anyone with a history of asthma, treatment with immunosuppressive drugs (e.g., for anti-arthritis therapy and organ transplants), smoking, or exposure to pollutants, is at heightened risk of dying regardless of age.
Let him go first. Why doesn’t that self-aggrandizing nitwit Lieutenant Governor volunteer to work in a hospital ICU without gloves, gowns, face shield or mask?
Let him test out voodoo remedies hawked by Fox News, or home remedies like guzzling fish tank cleaner.
Efi,
I’ve watched “As Good As It Gets.” Pretty good movie. Jack Nicholson’s self-centered character’s lack of a “filter” in saying things that were hurtful to other people reminds me of someone else…
🐓🐓
Tron79,
”…We are both very independent people so it actually takes effort to be more open and communicate more. We have been married 36 years partially because we are independent and have separate interests so we are not doing everything together. But opening up more definitely helps. Now if only she would become a GOT fan but no luck there so far.”
• That’s the biggest challenge arising out of this abrupt change in lifestyles: Independent couples having to adapt to isolating with each other, entirely apart from the outside world.
It may require new means of communication. (For a few years, my [adult] sister lived with me. For a time, whenever I did something that displeased her, she’d toss the contents of the refrigerator on the kitchen floor and give me the silent treatment. Eventually, I persuaded her to be more open – yell and scream at me if necessary – so I could know exactly what sin I had committed instead of trying to guess.)
• No luck recruiting your wife into the GoT fandom? I assume you’ve tried an introductory compilation of Arya scenes from S1. That’s worked wonders for me in persuading non-believers – like my sister and niece – to get on board.
Tron79,
“…But she supports my obsession. She got me a cool tiny music box that plays the GOT theme and Jon Snows FUNKO figure stand on it to give him a little more height :).“
Funko figures? Hmmm. Thank you for providing me with an admittedly flimsy pretext for re-posting links to a video of a post-S3 Maisie Williams Thronecast interview + S6e6 Lady Crane clip:
Sky TV Thronecast interview of Maisie Williams
(at 5:32 – 7:01, with Arya Funko Pop)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AASqKKgSndo
at 6:07: “We’ll, I’ve got pretty good eyebrows too.”
—
S6e6, Lady Crane and Mercy (Arya)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZbiNiDsk48
at 0:08
Lady Crane: “You have very expressive eyes, Mercy. Wonderful eyebrows.”
Wimsey,
Indeed.
These people are closer to diabolical than evangelical – no matter what they call themselves.
Jesus (or whatever your concept of good is!) must be weeping again.
kevin1989,
”How is the situation there Ten Bears?”
I don’t know Kevin. Looking back over my own prior comments, I see that coronavirus cases in Florida have increased ten-fold from 314 on March 18, to over 4,000 as of yesterday, March 28 – with an increase of close to 1,000 in just one day alone (yesterday). Waking up to this morning’s headlines [see below] has got me feeling quite glum.
The reported figures reflect that the number of cases has been increasing exponentially, and as the experts have been warning, the virus will continue to spread virtually unchecked without the lockdown that should have been ordered well over a month ago.
The chronology isn’t very promising:
Wednesday, March 18, 2020: “Confirmed”* coronavirus cases in Florida = 314 cases (including 80 in Broward County (Ft. Lauderdale, etc.), 76 in Miami-Dade County (Miami, Miami Beach, North Miami, etc.)
… eight days later…
Tuesday, March 24, 2020: 1,467 cases in Florida
… four days later…
Saturday, March 28, 2020, 9:30 am: 3,198 cases in Florida; 46 reported deaths
… by later that night…
Saturday evening, March 28, 2020: over 4,000 cases; 56 deaths.
—————
Excerpts from previous comments upthread:
March 18, 2020, 5:39 pm
Ten Bears:
as of ~ 3:30 pm today, 3/18/20:
“Florida coronavirus updates: Confirmed* cases skyrocket to 314; South Florida continues to be epicenter.”
“The total number of confirmed* COVID-19 cases in Florida jumped by almost 100 cases, up to 314, according to Wednesday’s advisory from the state Department of Health.
The number of deaths in the state remains at seven.
The largest number of cases continue to be in South Florida, with 80 in Broward, 76 in Miami-Dade and 19 in Palm Beach. Those counties account for more than 45 percent of the statewide COVID-19 cases.”
https://amp.floridatoday.com/amp/5076042002
Geez. It feels like I’m just waiting for the Doom of Old Valyria down here. 😷
——-
* [3/29/20 note: No doubt the real numbers were ten times those reported “confirmed” figures. Without public testing – still – there were probably ten infected people running around for every one who had been hospitalized and tested.]
———-
March 18, 2020, 8:24 pm reply to Efi
Efi: “You’re only just beginning, I’m afraid. If Florida has high tourism rates it’s likely that it’ll suffer more than other state.”
TB: Yes. F*cking tourists. Not only are there substantial segments of the population who aren’t taking this seriously, but there are thousands of idiots down here on Spring Break who are partying like they don’t have a care in the world – and very soon they’re going to return home and spread the virus there too.
Meanwhile, our moron governor had not ordered beaches closed; only yesterday did he get around to shutting down bars. There are still throngs of oblivious tourists packing the streets and hotels. The whole state should be on lockdown already.
The Army of the Dead will be here within two weeks. By then it’ll be too late. (Did I mention we’ve got lots of retirees and other senior citizens?)
***
———————
March 19, 2020, 10:41 pm reply to Tiago
Tiago: “We’re all in the same boat.”
TB: Why do I feel like Mr. Magoo is at the helm of mine?
———————-
March 25, 2020, 8:14 am
TB [after quoting verbatim my 3/18/20, 5:39 pm comment above; omitted here to avoid repetition]:
Great. Now six days later (as of yesterday, 3/24/20) there are 1,467 cases in Florida.
F*cking Spring Breakers. Dummy MAGA Governor. Clueless tourists.
[link omitted]
——————-
3/25/20 10:27 am reply to Tron79
If (when) hospitals are overrun, non-COVID patients will die, along with doctors and nurses. Then we’re truly f*cked.
Orange Walder already squandered two months that could’ve been spent nipping the problem in the bud. Now he’s intimating that we should just let millions of people join the Army of the Dead. F*ck ventilators. F*ck respirators. F*ck grandma and grandpa. Save the Dow!
🤬
——————-——————
————————————-
Updates since 3/25/20 Comment above:
COVID-19 Florida Statistics (per Florida Dept. of Health):
as of Saturday, March 28, 2020, 9:30 am:
Total Cases: 3,198
Fla. Residents: 3,054
Non-Residents: 14;
Deaths: 46
———————
Miami Herald headline (Sunday morning, March 29, 2020, around 5:00 am), front page:
“Florida Cases Surge Past 4,000”
Subheading: “State’s pandemic death toll rises to 56” [as of Saturday evening]
First paragraph of article:
“Saturday marked Florida’s steepest increase in coronavirus cases, with the total number of infections passing 4,000… By Saturday evening, 56 people in Florida had died from complications with [sic] COVID-19.”
also on front page:
“[Governor] DeSantis Bars Herald reporter from briefing”
Haven’t you heard about the Jesus vs. Orange Pay-Per-View special on Easter Sunday?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbPQCJtnT6o
—
Oh, that was in reference to a scene in Anne of Green Gables — probably the most famous scene from that series. This character — Gilbert — the collective crush of all the girls (except Anne) at their school and who has a thing for Anne — he’s trying to get Anne’s attention and Anne refuses to look at him, choosing to focus on her school work. Gilbert is kind of annoyed by this so, to get her attention, he ends up pushing Anne too far by teasing her about her red hair so she gets up, yells at him, and smashes a slate over his head 🙂 If it had been 2019 rather than 1899, maybe Anne would have smashed an iPad over his head…
Yes! I loved “The Blind Side”!! And I remember “A Walk to Remember”! Should give those both rewatches…
I want to say sth. I’ve abstained so far because I’m European, not American so I don’t think I have the right to speak about it; what follows is written with the reservation that I do not really know how things are in the States, so I might be wrong from the very beginning. But I have to say it either way, since I am an observer and a historian and for some reason what we are living through is so far unique and the way the different states of the world will rise to the challenge will determine what these states want to be in the 21st century.
The healthcare system in the US is notoriously problematic, and this disease will make it reach its limits. Unfortunately , this means that lots of people will die, notwithstanding their age, because they have small or no access to medication or intensive care (we’re not talking about ICUs here, just simple respirators) on account of their small income that doesn’t give them access to expensive health care programs or because they have underlying conditions, or they belong to the most sensitive groups, like people with autoimmune diseases.
I’ve seen reports from the US saying that the Healthcare providers have suspended the supply of meds to patients with autoimmune diseases, because they are saving it for the hospitals. In particular, chlorocine and similar drugs are the only med that can help lots of people (esp. those with lupus) with their daily survival.
Scarcity of meds and materials is not rare all over the globe. By government instructions, the supplies have been withheld by the states for hospital use. This in many countries (such as my own, which is a very small one) is complemented with producing the exact meds and materials by the pharmaceutical companies to cover the needs of the hospitals.
But withholding the meds from chronic disease patients is unheard of, and, honestly speaking, criminal, and more than that, it is morally criminal. It is not just the act that needs to be outspokenly condemned, it is the moral thinking behind it, which frankly, makes me wonder how is it that the people behind these decisions tolerate themselves, are at peace with themselves, and are able to enjoy a good night’s sleep.
Of course one understands here that the pharmaceutical companies in the US are ready to sell their supplies to the highest bidder. They are simply hoarding meds and materials to make more money. Disrupting the regular supply to long-term patiens who need the meds automatically makes their price go sky-high, which means that the [private] healthcare provider is not willing to continue covering the expenses for their patients. Moreover, even though the US is famed as a rich state, its confederate states are not all of equal financial capacity; buying the meds recquired will not be as easy for all of them, which means, the way that the disease will hit America will be directly proportionate to the financial situation of the separate states. And that by itself is morally unacceptable.
I hope, when this is over, that there will be statistical and qualitative analyses of the sociology of the disease in the US. I hope it makes the headlines of grand newspapers, magazines and sites. I hope it is analysed to what extent the deaths among the poor are to be attributed to limited space (such as in NY) or to limited access to meds and exclusion from intensive care and ICUs. I hope it makes fellow Americans reflect on how much poverty and its consequenses, meaning malnutrition and absence of healthcare are conditions that contribute to high death rates when diseases like this befall the US.
And I hope that fellow Americans will react and demand for a change.
Ten Bears,
A lot of fun especially when the rats and cockroaches helped her. They weren’t her usual animated cute forest friends.
Yes, twirling in this giant white puffy princess dress while pigeons, swarms of cockroaches, and rats help her clean the house as she sings ‘A Happy Working Song’ XD
A: The kind of people who give credence to the hunches of an illiterate clown over the conclusions of scientific experts.
While I can’t attribute the source, someone recently wrote an article or op-ed recalling a tale involving faith vs. science. It was based on severe floods in the Midwest a few years ago but seems appropriate now. The story went something like this…
As floods inundated his town, a survivor escaped to the roof of his house to await rescue.
When a rescue boat approached, he waved it off, telling his would-be rescuers the Lord would save him.
The floodwaters kept rising. Nevertheless, when a helicopter approached to pluck the man from his roof, he waved it off, shouting to the pilot and corpsman on board that the Lord would save him.
Thereafter, the rising floodwaters swallowed up the man’s home, reached past his roof, and drowned him. He died.
He asked St. Peter: “Why didn’t the Lord rescue me!”
St. Peter: “He sent a boat. He sent a helicopter…”
I guess the moral of the story is that even religious people should treat science as a gift from the Lord of Light – I mean from whatever God they worship – instead of rejecting science and relying on blind “faith.”
Ten Bears,
Great story to illustrate the point! Very funny story as well!
One of the depressing things is number of such persons in what is supposed to be a well-educated, developed economy. Geez!
Sometimes, I really hope there is a Hell. It seemed tailor-made for some folks. In his current mode, this Dan Patrick would fit right in. He needs to get his head examined and to develop some feeling for others. I hope he finds a better way to think and live. Soon – if he is going to continue in leadership.
death by chickenfire,
…”just one week ago i was happy how people here seemingly have understood what’s going on and what they have to do. today left me sobered. our biggest local forest was crowded with joggers, pairs holding their hands, bikers, families… and nearly none of them made any effort to give me the safe distance we all need to keep now. since my times as a forest worker, i never went into the bushes as many times as today.
these people will fuck it up. and they don’t mind. “well i do not belong to a risk group” is one of the statements from these potential virus launches i’ve heard a good dozen times today. when being dumb and being a sociopath meet, someone else has to take care of their grannies until death…”
I, too, no longer have any reason to be optimistic. It just took a handful of dummies to put everyone at risk. I fear the morons have succeeded.
Here, our governor is still resisting calls to impose a statewide lockdown. Testing still isn’t available. Hospitals are going to be overwhelmed within the next ten days. South Florida has been designated as one of the “hot spots” for imminent explosion of the virus.
I fear it is too late to halt its spread. The consequences of stupid decisions, inactions and misinformation over the past several weeks are about to manifest themselves down here over the next two weeks. In the next couple of months, thousands if not tens of thousands of people are going to die that didn’t have to die. I cannot even begin to fathom the number of fatalities across the country and throughout the world by the time this first wave has swept over the globe. It all makes me heartsick. So many innocent souls killed by others’ greed and stupidity.
“The long night is coming. And the dead come with it.”
Ten Bears,
Just last weekend, people in Washington D.C. were out in big crowds looking at cherry blossoms in the tidal basin. Two weeks ago, people in New York were packed into bars and clubs. Lines were outside some establishments as people waited to get into rooms that were too packed. In Florida people cavorting at beaches. These scenes were repeated all over. In France, in early March after the start of the breakout there, thousands of people got together dressed as Smurf to break the Guinness record. WTF?
When did stupidity become pandemic? WTF?
And now a Public Service Announcement from Sandor Clegane
“People in Utah Are Panic-Buying Baby Chicks”
from The Daily Beast, Mar. 29, 2020
Americans have emptied store shelves of toilet paper, hand sanitizer, and pasta. And now, at least in Utah, they are hoarding baby chickens. The Deseret News reports there has been a run on chicks since a large earthquake and the onset of the coronavirus pandemic. The Ogden Intermountain Farmers Association store sold 1,000 chicks in one day, the newspaper said. Katy Cox, who raises chicks as a hobby but couldn’t find any at the Riverton IFA store, fears what will happen a year from now. “They grow up and become stinky and gross,” she said.
”There may be a day when we have wild chickens all over Riverton.”
Tron79,
I’m happy that it helped between you and your wife.
And that music box sounds amazing.
Mango,
I am gobsmacked.
Americans are suffering. Americans are dying. Americans are in fear.
Here’s what our American president is thinking about this afternoon: his own TV ratings and polling numbers.
JFC! This is reality, not a reality TV show!
————
March 29, 2020, 1:48 pm 4–part tweet from “President” Donald Trump.
“President Trump is a ratings hit. Since reviving the daily White House briefing Mr. Trump and his coronavirus updates have attracted an average audience of 8.5 million on cable news, roughly the viewership of the season finale of ‘The Bachelor.’ Numbers are continuing to rise…
1:48 PM · Mar 29, 2020·
“….On Monday, nearly 12.2 million people watched Mr. Trump’s briefing on CNN, Fox News and MSNBC, according to Nielsen — ‘Monday Night Football’ numbers. Millions more are watching on ABC, CBS, NBC and online streaming sites, and the audience is expanding. On Monday, Fox News…
…alone attracted 6.2 million viewers for the president’s briefing — an astounding number for a 6 p.m. cable broadcast, more akin to the viewership for a popular prime-time sitcom…
“The CBS News poll said 13 percent of Republicans trusted the news media for information about the virus.” Michael M. Grynbaum @ NY Times.
Ten Bears,
As one commentator observed:
“This is what you are to him, Americans.
An audience.
Not his constituents. Not the people who hired him. Not even humans.
You’re boxes in a spreadsheet of his Neilson ratings.”
– Rick Wilson 3/29/20, 2:23 pm
Ten Bears,
It’s a tragic time, I always watch the news everyday but I really get depressed about it. When I hear the stories about people dying that family members can’t say goodbye (is also happening here), even the happy stories like a young guy of 16 years old who was in bad shape because of Carona finally got home, I really think how did his mother feel, and his sister, his father and the rest of the family and friends in those week. Or the people who have family members in other countries (because of work, school or just vacation) that can’t get home because plains don’t fly. It’s just too much.
Also when seeing the US segments, it’s already so bad and it only started yet, I despair how it is within a month when the CDC thinks the peak is around the first of May.
And then we have Dan Patrick with his selfish view, and as you state, if he feels like that, he should be on the front-lines helping and showing the people that he himself is willing to sacrifice his life for the economy.
And these times really made me think of a scene of lord of the rings: Two towers.
“How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened?”
Ten Bears,
I can’t believe that the Governor doesn’t close beaches, especially when it already hits that big of a number and as you state that counts only as the one that were tested.
I hope he acts sooner than later, because measurements also take 1/2 weeks of time to take effect.
Ten Bears,
Here they are pretty hard with the measurements. Like the police take patrol if people are partying at home. Yesterday a party of youngsters, total of 15 people were in the house having a party. The police intervened, now they need to get before the judge when things settled here, and they get a big fine that can rise up to 400,- For youngsters like this with the minimum wage that they get that is pretty much working maybe for 3/4 months the least next to your school to work that off. But luckily the dutch seems to take things serious overall only a small portion fucks it up.
Ten Bears,
What I though wait this can’t be true, but it’s true, it’s on his twitter. He really thinks people are watching him instead of finding out if they are safe or not, what a self-centered clown.
kevin1989,
”What I though wait this can’t be true, but it’s true, it’s on his twitter. He really thinks people are watching him instead of finding out if they are safe or not, what a self-centered clown.“
Reassuring to know that about an hour after that absurd, self-congratulatory tweetstorm, Orange Walder tweeted out this gem:
Trump, 3/29/20 at 3:00 pm:
“I am a great friend and admirer of the Queen & the United Kingdom. It was reported that Harry and Meghan, who left the Kingdom, would reside permanently in Canada. Now they have left Canada for the U.S. however, the U.S. will not pay for their security protection. They must pay!”
I am so relieved our leader is laser-focused on the pandemic crisis. 👿
Who in their right mind moves from Canada to the U.S. during a pandemic. Oh wait, royals. Bye bye!!!
(I’m sure they’re very nice blah blah blah, I am just sick to death of hearing about them. Now I have even more reason to tune out the U.S. news.)
kevin1989,
Thanks Kevin. Here’s a picture of it. It’s pretty small, but perfect size for Jon Snow to stand on it.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2447/7635/products/Game_of_Thrones_Handmade_Music_Box_4_1024x.jpg?v=1576692803
As an outsider looking in, my friends and I have confidently predicted this pandemic must be the end of Trump. His total lack of action, his misinformation and his blame of everyone else must surely mean people begin to the see through his conman persona.
So anyway I looked on twitter last night (I do not follow him) and some of the responses were out right scary. A few dissenting voices but plenty claiming the top Dr Fauci is “a deep state asset” that this virus is a hoax by the democrats, that Americans need to get back to work and it’s the “swamp” holding Trump back from allowing that. Unsure whether these were bots but if not there were hundreds of incredibly stupid people who I feel would literally believe the earth was flat if Trump told them so.
Here in the UK we have another con man in charge, virtually everyone who has read up on the virus can see we’ve handled it poorly but there are others still believing every word which comes out of his mouth. Remember we are the country who wanted to prioritise the economy and simply let it happen until the scientists pleaded this would kill 750,000 (largely in the Johnson voter base).
Either way I hope this spells the end of unqualified leaders, especially those spinsters and shivs like Trump and Johnson.
“The CBS News poll said 13 percent of Republicans trusted the news media for information about the virus.” Michael M. Grynbaum @ NY Times.”
Ten Bears,
so, they trust… ehm… what source? anyway, how many problems could be solved if they had the same low trust in physicians.
“hey, don´t step out of that window! you cannot walk around the house, we’re on the 12th floor. gravity will make you hit the ground pretty hard, and then you’re dead.”
“keep your mainstream science fingers off my freedumb!!”
“well then…”
Ten Bears,
“Orange Walder tweeted out this gem: ”
“Orange Walder”!! you gave me hope with this, because we all know that winter will come for House Drumpf. until then, i hope Catelyn won’t open Melania’s throat hearing he’ll just have “another one” of those immigrant wives…
“#Orange Walder” has a place in the hall of fame, like #ASNAWP and hopefully #Sandorista, right?
Jon Snowed,
”As an outsider looking in, my friends and I have confidently predicted this pandemic must be the end of Trump. His total lack of action, his misinformation and his blame of everyone else must surely mean people begin to the see through his conman persona.
So anyway I looked on twitter last night (I do not follow him) and some of the responses were out right scary. A few dissenting voices but plenty claiming the top Dr Fauci is “a deep state asset” that this virus is a hoax by the democrats, that Americans need to get back to work and it’s the “swamp” holding Trump back from allowing that…”
There are some voices of reason out there…
https://twitter.com/PACRONYM/status/1244651702357295106
——
Maybe so! 🤔
I’ve been calling him Orange Walder ever since I “reimagined” this scene of Arya vs. Walder in S6e10 [clip below], except with Orange Walder seated at his desk when a waitress enters with a platter of hamburgers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI9L0jvF_vQ
Lemme see if I can find the dialogue of that reimagined scene. (How I long for the old days, before people were actually dying in real life because of a leader’s perfidy.)
Jon Snowed,
On the contrary, Trump is becoming even more popular with the American public. While polls can be wrong, every recent poll agrees that over this last few weeks, Trump’s approval rating has risen significantly. He is more likely to win re-election than he was in December. The majority of the public approves of how he is managing the crisis. Even Democrats are reporting increased approval of Trump.
This tells me that the average person is very different from what you hoped/ expected. Me too! It is hard to understand -even allowing for the nationalist rallying of a country in a time of crisis. It is still hard to understand.
Mango,
Nah. It’s a temporary bump from the “rally around the flag” effect. The majority of the people can’t really want this sh*tshow to continue on for another four years.
…. Can they???? 😱
Ten Bears,
I read it too that tweet. And his first thing he thinks about is money, not safety and lives.
Hope that your governor has implemented some measurements to keep the people of Florida safe.
About here in the netherlands, the measurements seems to work, the new cases are lowering and the deaths per day are lowering. I hope this continues this whole week. And it seems the measurements are going to be extended which I’m happy about.
I watched the Martian (I did the extended version) and I really liked it. I’m glad I watched it.
Tron79,
That one looks amazing. I wonder if they can be bought here in the Netherlands. Maybe if at the end of the year winds is not out I maybe buy that music box instead, if it’s not too pricy.
Jon Snowed,
It’s indeed scary how people follow one person blindly without question him. And I wonder if people really will go against Trump, maybe some who voted for him maybe lose hope, but I fear most voters will stick with him. I feel only a little part of America would be willing to change parties but overall they stick with either republican or Democrats their whole lives. Instead of looking at the person. I’m left myself (left of the netherlands, even the most rightwing party in the Netherlands is more left than the democrats) but I rather have a rightwing leader that knows his Job (which I feel Rutte does right, he listens to the RIVM and change the measurements to what they say) than a left leaning leader that fails in times like these.
As for Johnson, did he state this week that the virus need to be taken serious after he got it himself? Which is still a little too late.
death by chickenfire,
… Here’s the reimagined “Orange Walder” scene. It looks like I posted this around January 19, 2019. It may be obsolete, especially the ending: It pre-dates all of the lunacy that’s transpired over the past year. Feel free to update it…
Oh, I had spoiler-coded it so as not to offend anyone’s political sensibilities.
——————-
(Orange Walder alone at his desk, scarfing a hamburger.
Orange Walder: “Not one of mine, are you?”
Waitress: “No my Lord.”
Orange Walder: “Didn’t think so. Too witty.”
(Tries to grab her by the p***y; she deftly dodges)
Orange Walder: “Where are my damn moron sons? Don Jr. and Eric promised to be here by midday.”
Waitress: “They’re here my Lord.”
Orange Walder (looking around): “What are they doing, skimming from their charities? Tell them to come here. Now.”
Waitress: “But they’re already here my Lord.
(Motioning to half-eaten burger)
“Here, my Lord.”
(Orange Walder lifts up bun, revealing small mushroom-shaped appendage)
Waitress: “They weren’t easy to carve. Especially Don Jr.”
Orange Walder (initially stunned; but then wolfs down rest of burger anyway): “This is really good!”
[Off-screen voice of chef: “The secret is marinating the phallus before making the patty…“]
(Waitress peels off her face mask as Orange Walder looks up at her)
Waitress: “My name is Chelsea. I want you to know that. The last thing you’re ever going to see is a Clinton smiling down at you, as you…”
Orange Walder: “Hold on. I like your style. Just what I need in a Secretary of Defense. A million rubles up front. Whadya say?”
kevin1989,
“Hope that your governor has implemented some measures to keep the people of Florida safe.“
Nope. We’re f*cked.
Ten Bears,
I hope you are right.
But he won, didn’t he? Acting exactly as he does now.
And his supporters have not wavered. The polls find his supporters more energized than average.
I sure don’t. I hope Trump loses the election, but I don’t feel too confident about it. The challenger, Joe Biden, isn’t exactly drumming up enthusiastic support. The Democrats don’t really have much of a strategy other than “Trump sucks”. They tried that tactic in 2016 and lost. I hope the Democrats get their shit together for 2020, but I’m not holding my breath.
Maybe one of the few good things to come out of the Coronavirus is that Trump’s poor reaction to it could turn the tide against him. We’ll see.
Mr Derp,
…”The challenger, Joe Biden, isn’t exactly drumming up enthusiastic support.“
I don’t want enthusiasm or excitement. I want normalcy. Give me Uncle Joe. Please. I can’t take any more of Orange Orson. (“Smash the Beetles!”)
(P.S. Is there any doubt in your mind that if Hillary Clinton, Uncle Joe, or even my dog were in charge, that the spread of the pandemic would’ve been nipped in the bud and tens of thousands of Americans wouldn’t be dying?)
”The Democrats don’t really have much of a strategy other than “Trump sucks”. They tried that tactic in 2016 and lost.”
They tried that in 2018 and won. 🌊🌊
Trump was an unknown in 2016. Lots of people bought into the persona they saw on TV. They fell for the bluster and bravado – and lies – of the supposedly “successful businessman.”
His three-year track record since then kind of compels a “Trump sucks” strategy, doesn’t it? So does spending his days tweeting insults and self-praise, and golfing on the taxpayers’ dime instead of doing his job. His sycophants and enablers are even worse. (Sorry. Not a fan of Bullfrog Barr 🐸, Moscow Mitch 🐢, or Lindsey 💃)
Eh, who the f*ck knows. There’s no meaningful “strategy” except to win Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. (I’d add Florida to that list except we’ll find some way to botch the election. Again.)
kevin1989,
Here you go ….
March 30, 2020, 6:22 pm
“12 states have NOT locked down (~25% of the country), including #Florida and #Georgia.
#Florida is the 3rd most populated state with a substantially large % of older people at high risk for serious #COVID19.
What is
@GovRonDeSantis
waiting for? ⁉️
https://twitter.com/DrDenaGrayson/status/1244751982629457920
Really wow, that’s jaw dropping crazy that people think he is doing a good job, even taking away any bias his total swing between it being a hoax to declaring a national emergency should set off alarm bells with the public. We even thought his own party would force him out over this. Also I saw somewhere Joe Biden is now the heavy favourite to win the next election? US politics is not something I am particularly interested in or knowledgeable on so do forgive me if I am mistaken with any of this.
Here in the UK though 63% of the public think Boris Johnson is doing a good job, all despite predictions that we will be one of the hardest hit countries in Europe and our Health workers complaining about lack of protective kit, it’s mind blowing to me especially when I researched up about the virus and it’s obvious Western Governments had time to take actions and simply chose not too.
The democrats were expecting huge victories in 2018. They did get some, but not nearly as many as they expected.
I don’t think he was an unknown at all in 2016. Trump has been a well known “persona” and scumbag since the 1980’s. Polls were consistently showing that Trump had no chance in 2016, but of course he still ended up winning. IMO, polls have become useless since then.
He’s done about as bad a job as possible, yet he still gets a lot of support from his base. To me, that doesn’t bode well, especially when you consider his challenger, Biden, isn’t particularly popular nor does he drum up similar rabid support from his base like Trump does. I really, really hope I’m wrong though.
Mr Derp,
My reading of the situation is similar to yours.
Jon Snowed,
Yes, Biden was strong. Except in the last few weeks, Trump polling has moved positively and this week I read that he was very competitive with Biden, with Trump on a upward trend.
Ten Bears,
Keep us posted when something changes there Ten Bears.
Mr Derp,
I also hope that Trump loses, but somehow I doubt it. The democrats as you say don’t really put a great candidate to the for front, they are divided. And I fear like with the last time, the Bernie voters will stay home. Look at when Obama won his second term and in 2016, it was not that Trump got more than Romney, it’s that Clinton got less than Obama, people stayed home, and if Biden got the spot against Trump, same thing will happen again. So it’s not really that Trump wins, it’s that the democrats lost. They really need to get a better candidate to the table.
If I were an American I would have voted for Bernie, he is not so extreme as people state, he want a system like the Nordic countries, which in this Covid-19 times shows that universal healthcare is really important. He maybe have some faults Bernie but the way he wants to go, is at least a way that I think the US needs to go, step by step and see where they want to stop it. And even if Bernie wants somethings it doesn’t mean he get there to the extend he wants to, but the US could with him finally implement the basics it needs.
Ten Bears,
“I’ve got the best tweets. Nobody does tweets better than me, there’s no doubt about it. I’m an expert on tweets. Tremendous amount of people read my tweets, billions and billions of people.”
I could hear him say that.
As for your dog, I would vote for him. What’s his view on dog snacks?
Ten Bears,
I can’t see what he is trying to achieve. Does he hope that at the end of the week the virus just disappear?
Jon Snowed,
Here they also were much too late. When the first cases hit the Netherlands they were all: Everything will be all right, no measurements needed. Even 1,5/2 weeks later they still were, it’s under control. Then the day later the opposition were forcing the coalition to act. Day after that the first measurements were implemented and they wanted to go for group immunity, which doesn’t work or at least high unlikely, the who was not pleased with that statement. Then week later they changed it a bit and now we have much better measurements, fines are given etc. Those measurements should have been implemented a week before the first case reached the Netherlands.
Now the Dutch are doing pretty well, 95%+ of the people are holding themselves to the measurements, and the amount of new cases/deaths lowered. (Hope today it also lowered but I haven’t watch the news yet.
I’m also a bit disappointed by my government that they don’t want to help Italy/Spain financially. We are all in the EU and we are there to help each other, especially in situations like this.
EDIT: It seems it once again lowered today. The measurements seem to work.
The postman knocked at the front door today. I had been upstairs so got there a bit late but I shouted and he said (socially distancing of course) he’d put the delivery through the ‘hatch’ in the back door. I was wondering if at last it would be the 10 rolls of lavatory paper I ordered on Ebay well over a week ago but as the ‘hatch’ is the cat door I thought it couldn’t be. Well it was = but the 10 rolls were rolls without a cardboard tube in the middle. They seem to have a reasonable amount of paper each and I’m not going to measure but I wondered if the seller was someone who had bought up some rolls when the panic buying was going on when things first got serious with the Covid-19. It could be to save on postage I suppose. I suppose I am getting away from Mr Martin hunkering down to finish the sixth volume of ASOIAF.
The coronavirus is no respecter of persons with the UK’s own Orange Walder, (or should that be Fair-Haired Walder?), Bo-Jo and Charlie-Boy – though I suppose at 71 he’s more Charlie-Man these days) getting it even if a mild form As someone in the Charlie-Boy and GRRM age bracket I’ve been pleasantly surprised by offers of help I have received sometimes off people who are casual acquaintances rather than close pals. Of course there are always some people who spoil it – hopefully the young person in the linked news item will grow out of the stupidity. http://oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/139/main-news/133631/boy-charged-after-spitting-and-coughing-on-66yearold-woman.
Anyway fellow Watchers, keep well and safe.
kevin1989,
“If I were an American I would have voted for Bernie…”.
I would have too. Bernie was my second choice behind Elizabeth Warren. She’s a smart, sincere, progressive thinker.
Bernie’s promise of a revolution to take back the country from the 1% fat cats and rebuild it was enticing. (Funny how everyone was slamming him for proposing universal healthcare, a living wage and debt-free education because “we can’t pay for it”, and yet we somehow just came up with 2 f*cking trillion dollars to bail out big business – not to mention the trillion dollar tax scam two years ago…)
A reckoning was overdue. I cared about things like addressing climate change and income inequality. I would have been all-in for a shoot-for-the-moon Bernie agenda.
I used to care, but things have changed: I just want Orange Walder gone and sanity restored. Uncle Joe gives us the best chance of achieving that.
🎵“People are crazy and times are strange
I’m locked in tight, I’m out of range
I used to care,
but things have changed.”🎶
– Bob Dylan
Let Joe preside over a restoration of the country for four years. By 2024, a megawatt superstar will be eligible to run for president: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. 💙
#AOC
kevin1989,
<em>“I’ve got the best tweets. Nobody does tweets better than me, there’s no doubt about it. I’m an expert on tweets. Tremendous amount of people read my tweets, billions and billions of people.”
I could hear him say that.
——-
Ha ha ha! 🤣🤣🤣. How right you are.
I hate how he shirks responsibility for his own f*ck-ups, and tries to take credit for others’ achievements.
If TWOW is ever released he’ll probably take credit for that too.
“You know, George Martin is a good friend of mine. He goes by ‘GRRM.’ Not many people know that.
He came to see me with tears in his eyes and said: ‘Sir, I can’t seem to figure out how to finish my story.’ So I ghostwrote The Winds of Winter. He told me it was amazing, and I’m a literary genius. He said I wrote a very, very beautiful manuscript. It was perfect – like my phone call with Zelensky. People are saying I’m a better writer than George. The publisher is telling me the ratings for TWOW by DJT are gonna be through the roof.”
kevin1989,
”Keep us posted when something changes there Ten Bears.“
Forecast unchanged:
The Long Night is coming. And the dead come with it.
Dame of Mercia,
I never understood why toilet paper was being horded by so many in the first place. It’s not like the Coronavirus causes explosive diarrhea or something. People are strange.
kevin1989,
” I can’t see what he is trying to achieve. Does he hope that at the end of the week the virus just disappear?”
Our governor is taking a page out of the Orange Walder Playbook: Do nothing. Ignore science. And blame visitors from New York and “foreigners” on cruise ships when the sh*t hits the fan.
It appears the two of them are not overly concerned about people dying, so long as they can scapegoat someone else for if.
If the Virus tries to take Tormund Giantsbane, it is doomed! It will die off by itself. the world is a safe place again!
Dame of Mercia,
” Anyway fellow Watchers, keep well and safe.”
You too! And remember…
https://i.redd.it/fd23aeg064p41.jpg
🦠🗡👸🏻
Dame of Mercia,
Seems like a strange thing to do with the toilet paper. I also wonder why he or she didn’t just flatten the paper, it would soften the cardbox roll in it but it still can be used.
Ten Bears,
I like you’re thinking. I also like Cortez. Hope the democrats win this time. As for florida I read this news:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/us/florida-pastor-arrested-river-church/index.html
Dutch scientist also find a correlation between fine particulates in the air (right word in english?) and catching corona. It seems that places where lots of fine particulates are in the air, people tend to have worse lunges so corona hits harder in those places. Clean air is important, not only for Corona but many viruses and bacteria.
Ten Bears,
I can also hear him say that XDXD
“You are fake news.”
Mr Derp,
And also why buy for 10 years? I can see that you want to buy maybe double amount to be safe, instead of 1 package, two packages. But the amount for years, I really can’t understand.
Ten Bears,
And then I’m Robert in this case: So you would counsel me to do nothing until the virus has landed on my shores, is that it? Will no one talk sense to this orange-faced fool?
kevin1989,
Robert was right after all, wasn’t he?
And now a somber projection by noted epidemiologist Sandor Clegane, PhD:
“The Dead are marching past. Thousands of them.”
at 1:43 – 1:53
Thousands of them – nearly 53 000 today worldwide… (John Hopkins University)
And we know, no wall can protect anyone of anything permamently.
I’m afraid how this will end in in social aspects.
Nowadays GoT seems to me like an allegory to our real situation.
Artists (take GRRM as an artist) are often a kind of radar, who detect and sence things, that will happen, before other people do.
It is known.
Ten Bears:
Robert was right after all, wasn’t he?
Thanks to Covid-19, my full-series re-watch may come sooner than I’d originally planned. Knowing how it ends, I suspect the following moments may look quite different this time:
— In King’s Landing, Ned and Robert argue over whether or not to have Dany assassinated;
— Dany cheats the slave lord at Astapor out of the Unsullied by using a dragon;
— Pale & blonde Dany crowd-surfs as liberator over masses of dusky former slaves;
— Any of the many arguments Varys and Baelish had over power and morality.
I’m sure there will be many more to notice!
😩 No free Game of Thrones. 😖. However…
—————-
per Variety.com Apr. 2, 2020:
April 2, 2020
“HBO Will Stream 500 Hours of Free Programming, Including Full Seasons of ‘Veep,’ ‘The Sopranos,’ ‘Silicon Valley’”
HBO is unlocking its biggest trove of free programming ever — in a goodwill gesture as people look for a diversion during the COVID-19 pandemic.
The WarnerMedia-owned premium cabler is making almost 500 hours of programming available to stream for free for a limited time on HBO Now and HBO Go services without a subscription, starting this Friday, April 3.
The list of free programming includes every episode of nine HBO series: “The Sopranos,” “Veep,” “Succession,” “Six Feet Under,” “The Wire,” “Ballers,” “Barry,” “Silicon Valley” and “True Blood.”
Also streaming for free are 20 Warner Bros. movies in HBO’s current catalog including “Pokémon Detective Pikachu,” “The Lego Movie 2: The Second Part” and “Crazy, Stupid, Love”; and 10 HBO documentaries and docuseries including “McMillion$” and “The Case Against Adnan Syed.
Notably, however, HBO megahit “Game of Thrones” is absent from the free-streaming fiesta
The move by HBO to put such a huge amount of original content in front of the paywall effectively serves as a major sampling strategy ahead of WarnerMedia’s scheduled launch of HBO Max in May. HBO Max will include everything on HBO, plus a host of originals, library titles and licensed content — for the same $14.99 monthly price.
All of the programming will be available to stream without a subscription starting April 3 by downloading the HBO Now or HBO Go apps (or by visiting hbonow.com or hbogo.com). The content will also be made available for free via participating distribution partners’ platforms in the next several days, according to HBO.
HBO content available to stream without a subscription includes:
Full Series
1. Ballers (5 Seasons)
2. Barry (2 Seasons)
3. Silicon Valley (6 Seasons)
4. Six Feet Under (5 Seasons)
5. The Sopranos (7 Seasons)
6. Succession (2 Seasons)
7. True Blood (7 Seasons
8. Veep (7 Seasons)
9. The Wire (5 Seasons)
Warner Bros. Movies
1. Arthur
2. Arthur 2: On the Rocks
3. Blinded By the Light
4. The Bridges of Madison County
5. Crazy, Stupid, Love
6. Empire of the Sun
7. Forget Paris
8. Happy Feet Two
9. Isn’t It Romantic?
10. The Lego Movie 2: The Second Part
11. Midnight Special
12. My Dog Skip
13. Nancy Drew And The Hidden Staircase
14. Pan
15. Pokémon Detective Pikachu
16. Red Riding Hood
17. Smallfoot
18. Storks
19. Sucker Punch
20. Unknown
Docuseries and Documentaries
1. The Apollo
2. The Case Against Adnan Syed
3. Elvis Presley: The Searcher
4. I Love You, Now Die: The Commonwealth v. Michelle Carter
5. The Inventor: Out for Blood in Silicon Valley
6. Jane Fonda in Five Acts
7. McMillion$
8. True Justice: Bryan Stevenson’s Fight for Equality
9. United Skates
10. We Are the Dream: The Kids of the MLK Oakland Oratorical Fest
• Yes! Exactly. All of Robert’s “dragonspawn” ranting, warnings about Dothraki screamers, and insistence on whacking Dany, make him seem br******t in retrospect.
• And you’re right: There will be many more examples to notice on rewatch. At some point I should do a deep dig of Robert’s S1 dialogue…
• I may also want to revisit Stannis vs. Davos arguments about the morality of sacrificing one innocent young person (eg Gendry) for the good of the realm – or as Melisandre pointed out, had Davos not freed Gendry (maybe) thousands of Stannis’s men wouldn’t have been killed in the assault on KL.
cos alpha,
NY Governor Andrew Cuomo, April 2, 2020, 9:22 pm:
“This virus will roll across the country like a slow moving hurricane.
No state can stand alone. We need to jointly rush in and help where the need is.
I believe our nation will come together because it’s the only way to save lives.”
———
Lord Commander Jon Snow S5e8:
“The Long Night is coming and the dead come with it. No clan can stop them. The Free Folk can’t stop them. The Night’s Watch can’t stop them. And all the southern kings can’t stop them. Only together, all of us, and even then it might not be enough, but at least then we’ll give the f*ckers a fight.”
Ok, I am going to stirr the waters now.
This is from one of Martin’s podcasts:
“There are some mysteries in these books. There are some things that I’m gonna reveal later on that I’m planting clues for. There are some later plot twists that I’m foreshadowing. There are things that are gonna happen in Book 5 and Book 6 and Book 7 where I’ve planted a seed for it in Book 1. But I don’t necessarily want to give away my hand. So, what do I do when I plant the seed? Well, I plant the seed, but I try to do a little literary sleight of hand, and while I’m planting the seed, my other hand is up there waving and is distracting you with some flashy bit of wordplay or something that’s going on in the foreground, while the seed is being planted in the background. So hopefully the seed is there, the foreshadowing is there, but maybe you won’t notice it, because it’s surrounded by so many other things.”
You can find the rest of it (it’s a monologue) here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S9wK714S3Q&feature=youtu.be&t=9m17s
In the end M. urges people to buy his book (of course) and strongly suggests a re-read to those who have, for discovering the clues.
This (is one of) the way(s) it works. The following excerpt is from Sansa II, ASoS, concerning Margaery’s wedding to Joffrey; Margaery believes that her brother will protect her from Joff. I won’t include the entire abstract, ridden with meaning and foreshadow, just the end of it, which hints at one of the last episodes of the drama.
Also, italics don’t work, so I’ll put Sansa’s thoughts in quotation marks.
And spoilers, because it’s about the endgame of the books.
Interpretation (by me of course; you can take it or leave it).
If Loras (Jon) finds out that king Joff (queen Daenerys) has (or is about to) hurt his sister (cousin) Margaery (Sansa), he will kill him (her).
The realm might have a second Kingslayer (Queenslayer), and there would be war inside the city (Kings Landing), as the men of the lion (Tyrion) and the men of the rose (Jon) made the gutters run red.
And for anyone who’s doubting that Martin’s choice of words is deliberate, I remind them that Joff dies at the end of ASoS. Tyrion on the other hand is a “true” son of Tywin according to Tywin’s sister, Gemma. So he is the Lion. [Jamie will be on Jon’s side and perhaps already dead by the endgame]
As for Loras, he is not the knight of roses. He is known as the Knight of Flowers. Martin deliberately ignores this characterization which would fit perfectly in the narrative, and puts “rose”, not roses, which would refer to Highgarden’s army, to blur the waters. The rose is the coat of arms of House Tyrell.
Why does he do that?
Because Jon is the Blue Rose on the Wall. Like Loras, Jon is a guard. Loras is a white guard; Jon is a black guard. The blue rose was his mother’s flower; Rhaegar gave Lyanna blue roses.
This little gem solved my question about Tyrion’s fate. I’ve spoken about it before, so I won’t repeat it here.
I too suggest a reread. The story is much better, one picks up things gone unnoticed the first time, and if you read through the lines and don’t get distracted by the plot, it’s amazing what you can find.
Efi,
• Great spot! Blue ROSE…
• As for G’s seed-planting metaphor…
You wrote: “Ok, I am going to stirr the waters now. This is from one of Martin’s podcasts:”
“There are some mysteries in these books. There are some things that I’m gonna reveal later on that I’m planting clues for. There are some later plot twists that I’m foreshadowing. There are things that are gonna happen in Book 5 and Book 6 and Book 7 where I’ve planted a seed for it in Book 1. But I don’t necessarily want to give away my hand….”
So what happens if he doesn’t water his garden and the seeds never germinate?
If there are “things that are gonna happen in…Book 6 and Book 7” and those books are never finished, what then?
Efi,
I think that statement is par for the course with Martin 😉 That podcast is originally from October 2006, before a lot of things have happened! Before R+L=J was even close to being confirmed (well, at least by the show but I’m 99% certain this is true for the books), a year before the show was even a twinkle in GRRM’s eye, before Young Griff, before Jon’s assassination, before all of the events of ADWD.
If I’m understanding this correctly, I don’t think it really sets up the ending to have hope for a better world but more of the same (wars between families/human factions). Furthermore, Jon’s doing something similar as to what he did at the end of ADWD — love of Arya over duty to the Watch, which culminates in breaking the fragile peace at the Wall and plunges the situation with the Others into even greater risk but this time, it is worse — this would have Jon kickstarting a civil war for Sansa, resulting in another war because of his love for her.
This feels like the same story but without added nuance… Sort of like Robert declaring war on Rhaegar because of Lyanna.
I have trouble with the idea especially after Jon’s arc centering so much on unity, recognizing there are other wars he must fight, and especially on inner conflict.
Here are some of my problems with these parallels.
a) Joffrey is straight-up villainous. I don’t think Dany is. She’s getting darker, she’s grey, but she’s not been characterized as the completely villainous Joffrey and I don’t think GRRM is going that way with her. There’s no nuance to this.
b) There’s nothing special about the conflict between Loras and Joffrey. They straight up hate each other. I don’t think there’d be anything interesting about having this be repeated with Jon and Dany in a culmination of the series, especially considering how both their arcs focus on inner conflict.
As for the rose bit:
I agree that Jon is a guard — but not just for Sansa or the Starks. He is a guard for all: “I am the shield that guards the realms of men.” I feel this contradicts the idea of Jon kickstarting a war for Sansa, compromising the lives of many.
Efi,
I’m sorry, I didn’t get to edit my response before my editing window closed.
I wanted to add that I do think Jon will kill Dany but I don’t think it’s going to be only for the love of a sister, kickstarting another war for her safety (as has happened before, plunging the realm into chaos, bloodshed, and dispute — something GRRM seems against). I believe Jon needed to learn this lesson in ADWD — the consequences of risking war for a sister, love over duty, and how disastrous that is (as has been illustrated by other scenarios for similar things in the books). This hard lesson illustrates the truth of Jeor Mormont’s words to him:
“Craster is his own man. He has sworn us no vows. Nor is he subject to our laws. Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night’s Watch has other wars to fight.”
Other wars. Yes. I must remember.
Jon tries to remember this in ADWD but he fails. Sending Mance to rescue Arya unwittingly resulted in the Pink Letter and catastrophe, potentially putting the entire realm at risk.
I don’t think Jon can make that same mistake as he did with Arya again, risking the Boltons’ wrath (and war) against the Watch for her, and have it seen as a good thing. Arya is Jon’s most beloved sibling but GRRM doesn’t exactly portray Jon’s choice here as the right thing. Even here, Jon tried committing himself to staying neutral and not allowing himself to rescue her, knowing why he must stay neutral but it was torture for Jon to stay neutral. It was only when Melisandre offered Jon the proverbial “apple”: “Take my hand,” [Melisandre] said again, “and let me save your sister,” that Jon accepted.
This decision kindled the spark to disaster (Ramsay catching Mance, sending the Pink Letter in which his threatens to attack if Jon doesn’t meet his monstrous demands) in which Jon had no good choices in response.
I think the situation with Dany may reflect a kind of impossible choice in the end for Jon — especially as his final choice and test. But I don’t think it can only be about the love of a sister. I think it needs to be about more — especially considering Jon’s arc in which he learns the consequences of these painful lessons.
Hopefully (for me), whatever choices Dany is presented with as well, they will be demonstrated as incredibly difficult for her, whatever they are — a more nuanced set of situations which may perhaps lead up to her assassination.
Efi,
Please read this message too! I’m sorry for another! This debate sparked another thought but it is a more personal one, one that you might find a bit silly but I wanted to thank you ^^;;
I was involved in a fandom debate this past month and it started out really nicely but it devolved into something pretty ugly — I disagreed with their interpretations and that’s when the situation got bad. After a series of personal, verbal attacks from these strangers — all because I didn’t agree with their interpretations — I was bummed out for days. I still am. Perhaps I’m weak but I’m wary of even adding my voice again to any place other than this site. I’ve been involved in a ton of academic debates and while they’ve left my mind churning and reeling, I didn’t feel the way I did after interacting with these people.
So the reason I’m telling you all this is that this whole experience made me really appreciate you, Efi, and everyone here. Efi, I know we disagree a ton but you’ve never made me feel the way those people did. And I kind of want to give you a big hug 🙁
Upon reflection, maybe I’m too sensitive and weak (when I was 17, a teacher was against me applying for university right away, that I wasn’t emotionally ready, calling me a “scared little girl” — probably true but I still did it and continued going to school for two more degrees in order to avoid life, probably because I was/AM scared still) but that experience was very upsetting. I’m also sorry if my tone sometimes comes across as too cold and too firm. I think I can get that way in debates 🙁 It’s a failing…
Efi,
I think the situation with Dany may reflect a kind of impossible choice in the end for Jon — especially as his final choice and test. But I don’t think it can only be about the love of a sister. I think it needs to be about more — especially considering Jon’s arc in which he learns the consequences of these painful lessons.
Well, it wasn’t “only… about the love of a sister” in the show. Dany’s implied threat to Sansa (Dany specifically mentioned Winterfell in her “Dragon Uber Alles” speech) was leveraged by Tyrion to make Jon understand the threat Dany posed to all “the realms of men.” Dany was going to keep mowing down everyone in her path, and Jon was the only one who could stop her.
Hopefully (for me), whatever choices Dany is presented with as well, they will be demonstrated as incredibly difficult for her, whatever they are — a more nuanced set of situations which may perhaps lead up to her assassination.
Television is a visual medium, and the producers wanted to wrap it up and move on, so there was definitely a feeling of “impending train wreck” to the last few episodes. Showing all of the events which led to Dany’s implosion took less time than the telling will. Assuming GRRM ever finishes his epic tale, I will be greatly interested to read about Dany’s deteriorating mental state. Given how Martin operates in these books, I would expect subtle, yet significant differences to start appearing between events as described in her chapters, and as described in other characters’ chapters. She then demonstrates decreasing tolerance toward other characters’ points of view, and increasing irritation with such (obviously) ‘wrong’ thinkers. Combine that internal dialog with the external elements in your quote, and we have the recipe for disaster which Martin planned from the beginning.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
Oh! I think you’re replying to me, Tensor! I wasn’t talking about the show, I was replying to Efi’s prediction of what will happen in the books in her above post 🙂
Yes. I agree with your interpretation and even here, Jon didn’t decide to assassinate Dany after speaking with Tyrion when Tyrion brought up his sisters. I don’t think that decision was made until Dany said how nobody else gets to a choice in her new world. He was still wanting to give Dany that last chance for Tyrion to be wrong, pleading with her to show mercy instead.
Efi,
Ten Bears,
Re: Roses and foreshadowing.
I had some more thoughts 🙂
When a rose is used to potentially connect to Jon in those few instances, it comes with other pretty specific things that are linked to Jon (a wall of ice, a mention of Jon’s mother) but it’s specifically a winter rose or a blue flower that’s mentioned in conjunction with these other details, not just a rose or a flower. Roses and flowers are pretty common things, things that have associations to other characters/ideas so I don’t think roses and flowers in general are enough to symbolize to Jon. I think they are too loose on their own without something more specific.
I think there needs to be another detail to really point to Jon.
But just my opinion!
Hey, has anyone here ever watched Don’t Hug Me I’m Scared? The British horror-comedy web series that’s also a musical?
#ASNAWP
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/969/932/818.gif
——
Adrianacandle,
*Sort of like Robert declaring war on Rhaegar because of Lyanna.
Crap, I realize I’m kind of mistaken here, however much Robert hated Rhaegar for Lyanna. Brain blank 🙂
What happened: After Aerys had Rickard and Brandon executed when Brandon demanded that Rhaegar come out and die (after hearing Rhaegar had abducted Lyanna) and Aerys later demanded the heads of Ned (who had become Lord of Winterfell) and Robert (who was betrothed to Lyanna), Jon Arryn called his banners, starting the rebellion. Robert and Ned rallied both the Stormlands and the North. Rhaegar taking off with Lyanna is what sparked the war, leading into the Baratheon/Lannister regime.
As for this quote from Sansa in ASOS:
It occurs to me this might have predicted Joffrey’s doom — Olenna did kill Joffrey, making Olenna a kingslayer, to spare Margaery having to suffer his true nature. They didn’t fail to see Joffrey’s nature as Sansa had thought. If Cersei finds out, and I expect she will, perhaps that may result in a war between the Lannisters and the Tyrells
Woah.
Nice editing XD
Ten Bears,
What happens if he forgets his own predictions? If he mixes them up? He’s an old man after all… Or what happens if he changes his mind?
Well, in this case the way he writes those pieces of foreshadow allow him to write a completely different story. Because after all a rose is a rose and a sister is a sister.
Ten Bears,
You’ve got a lot to watch Ten Bears.
Ten Bears,
So true.
Efi,
This is not really a spoiler it’s more of a theory, and in my opinion a theory that has the least basis to begin with, it has arguments like: I sneeze two times today, so tomorrow my dog will bark 2 times to the mailman.
Or: In the last bag of cheetos I ate, it contained 273 cheetos. Cheetos are orange, Trump is orange. Trump get 273 delegates the next elections at the end of the year.
It connects things that is only connected because they want the theory to work, not because they found connections that lead them to the theory. Even Varys is a mermaid has more basis than the Jon and Sansa being together has.
Also Martin stated at book 1. Not SoS when he said he planted the seeds for later. So only look at the first book to find the hints you looking for.
Also as somebody who read all martin’s books I still wonder why people think his bigger mystery that he hinted in book 1 is about who Jon is going to get married to in the end? Even Martin didn’t know back then, he still wanted Arya and Jon to be the end couple before he changed his mind to Jon and Dany.
No those mysteries where he laid the hints for in book 1 has nothing to do with a fairytale prince meets princess ending. That’s beneath Martin. This is not some disney story that Martin wrote. Those hints are much deeper, and looking at the first book I could already see which mysteries he has referred too:
– Jon’s parentage. Yes that is still up there, when Martin talks he doesn’t talk about: The show did reveal it already. He talks about his books. Book 1 has some hints about that.
– Daenerys past: He gave hints about Dany’s past that there is something off with it. Something he will reveal in winds or dream.
– The mystery of Ashara Dayne, and the Daynes in general.
– The backstory of the White Walkers, the Children of the forest, Weirwood trees, the pact. Which is clear Martin gave hints in the first book that what we think happened is not what happened. There is still a mystery around that that needs to be resolved.
– The Marwyn Mystery. He gave a big hint in book 1 that is going to be important in winds.
– And don’t forgot the characters of Varys and Littlefinger.
– Robert’s rebellion.
– And more
There are more subjects that Martin gave hints of in book 1 that are not yet came to fruition. That is so much more important for the endgame than: Who is Jon going to marry in the end. We need to remind ourselves this is Martin, not some fairytale writer.
As for the blue rose, there is one character that has a connection to a blue rose, and that is Daenerys. In her house of the Undying chapter. Blue rose is connected to Jon. Sansa got a Red Rose. If a rose is a connection to Jon, in the end Dany wins that match because she got the connection of a blue rose.
I’m not saying that Jon and Sansa won’t happen, if it happen and done right I would love it (if done wrong and that counts very every single thing I would dislike it). But there is no basis (or better said connection glue) for the Jon ends with Sansa theory. It falls apart very easily under scrutiny. If a house would have been build how the Jon+Sansa end together theory was build. The house would crumble when somebody would sneeze before it.
Adrianacandle,
Oh is that podcast from 2016. well than I think it’s safe to assume it’s about R+L=J.
And I agree about the rest you said, about the rose=Lyanna. And about Jon starting another war. If the books really go that way, that Jon would kickstart another war and not learn from his and his father (rheagar’s) mistake, than I really would dislike Jon very much for becoming a self-centered man, who I even would call would be a bad person. And I don’t want Jon to become a self-centered person. I like Jon too much for that. He is a unifier not one that would start a war. He also is learning a big truth in Dance. What happened when you put your family problems before your duty and honor, which in the end resulted in him getting shanked. (easy explained but the one that also explained Meereense blog explained Jon’s dance arc).
Adrianacandle,
Agree. And Nissa Nissa is also hinted in book 1. That’s how Dany dies, and how Jon end up alone at the wall (like the show but different). I also think the WW still could be a treat in the future again, don’t know how Martin will fill that in but I have my idea about that. See below. I think that’s why Jon will be at the wall (it could also be the reason why he won’t be king and that it’s his choice in the end), Jon will be the one that make sure the wall keeps manned for the next invasion.
WW: I think the thing with the White Walkers is, that the White Walker itself aren’t the source of the invasion. What I meant with this is, the White Walkers need to have come from somewhere. They came only decades after the first long war (book 1 hints about that timeline), so we need to ask ourselves if they came after, what made them? I don’t think they go with what the show gave us, that the Children of the forest made a human into a white walker, especially when the White Walkers showed after the long night started, they are a symptom of it, not the cause. So what made the White walkers then? What we do know is that magic is involved, so as long as magic is alive, the White walkers can come back. But magic is a foundation of nature in Planetos, meaning it will not be gone in the end. So what we need to know is: Who or what is the big other. Bran’s first chapter gives a clear hint that the great other exists. The only thing we know is that it’s magical.
Now my guessing comes into play, so take it with a grain of salt.
I think the great other is a big Weirwood tree. They are the living thing in westeros that is most connected to magic and that has been with us since the first chapter together with the White Walkers. We also know that the Children had connections with the Weirwood. Bran has a connection to it. And it seems (in feast and Dance we learn that) that the weirwood trees are connected to each other as one big weirwood net that the 3 eyed crow uses. (that means the roots are connected, that means even the weirwood trees in KL, Dorne etc are connected to the ones north of the wall.
Feast also give a big hint that the weirwoods are important, 2 miners disappeared and the only thing they found was earth, not even a body, that means something close to nature did kill them and dispose of them.
Back to my conclusion: Jon needs to be at the wall, even when they defeat this invasion, a new one can arise the moment the great other is ready to invade again with his new army of white walkers. And I believe the great other can’t be killed because without it, it destroys balance. You can’t kill magic when magic is the basis of life on your planet. They can defeat it but not kill it.
kevin1989,
Here is the source! October 5, 2006 — a year after AFFC was released (October 2005), 5 years before ADWD was released in July 2011 🙂
Yeah. To me, it would feel like de-evolution of Jon’s character — back to the choice he nearly made in book 1 to support his family in a human war until his friends made him realize his place was with the Watch and Jeor/Ygritte/the wildlings/et al. had Jon recognize the true enemy and the real war coming for them all over the human disputes over thrones in the south.
This is probably my second favourite passage from ASOIAF:
I think this passage is so powerful. Not just to the story but to us. That power of inclusion.
Not that Jon won’t struggle with his emotions. I think he will and I think that is what will make these tests even harder as the series goes on. In ADWD, Jon embraced the idea of unity, extending this peace even to the likes of the Weeper for the sake of unity — but he still had trouble emotionally when it came to people he had a personal hatred for (Ramsay). This results in him making a decision that ultimately endangers the realm. Jon’s mistake (as cruel as his conflict was — how can he leave his sister to the whims of a monster?) was not extending that same neutrality to Ramsay, resulting in the Pink Letter and putting all the realm at risk.
Not that Jon has to come back as nice as ever but I don’t think that means the character must go backward. I think these types of conflicts and tests are going to get even more difficult and crueler with increasing stakes.
Adrianacandle,
No! You can never be too sensitive and you’re not “weak” at all. You’re smart, articulate, creative and br*****nt.
As for that nitwit teacher who tried to dissuade you from applying for university when you were 17, calling you a “scared little girl”? F*ck him or her.
I’m picturing someone calling him or her a “scared little girl.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll8hB7ywcYI
at 3:05 – 3:10
kevin1989,
I think these are all mysteries that GRRM might be developing because the Others are still so mysterious. They aren’t even dead. And the mysteries of magic in this universe: the magic of Valyria, the magic in Winterfell, the magic of the weirwood, the magic in the Wall, the magic in the Red Priestesses, the magic in the Faceless Men, the mysteries of the undiscovered east, who are the Others, how did they come to be, how did six kids in House Stark get six direwolves that matched them while Dany got three dragon eggs at approximately the same time? What’s up with the visions/strange dreams these kids get? Jaime’s weirdwood stump dream? The three-eyed raven? What are the maesters about? The mysteries of House Dayne? What happened with Ned, Arthur, Ashara, and the Tower of Joy? House Dayne evidently helped Ned care for an infant Jon since Arya learns Edric Dayne is Jon’s milk brother by virtue of sharing a wet nurse — yet, this was after Ned killed Arthur.
And that’s not even the half of it. The mysteries are endless in this universe.
Now I’m a bit overwhelmed on GRRM’s behalf because that’s a lot. That’s not even getting into the various prophecies, the Greyjoy stuff, Patchface or the religions.
There’s a lot of mystery here.
He still is working on what he always wanted the story to lead to. His predictions will still lead to the end result he always wanted. He maybe add some side stories to get there, and the journey takes longer. He also state he won’t change his mind where he lead his story because of backlash of the show, people founding out his answers etc.
If he wanted Jon with Dany since the beginning, he will be with Dany in the end (even when she dies he still was with her in the end). If he wanted Jon to end with Sansa, he will end with Sansa. He won’t mixed them up, or use his prediction to lead to another ending. The only thing that could change is which secondary character lives, how do the characters get to a certain ending, which characters are involved with the twist etc.
The ending will still be the same as he always planted, but the road to it could differ. So if the books will indeed like the show (Which is likely to happen, all trustworthy sources that could know about the ending state it came from George’s own mouth) that Jon falls in love with Daenerys. This is not a change that Martin did for whatever reason. That’s because he always wanted to go there with his story.
And storywise it also make sense that Jon ends up with Dany, even when I really don’t look forward too it, I’m not that invested in relationsships in serious stories only like them in comedies or shows like Greys anatomy. For me shows like GoT is more than relationship stuff. But storywise Jon’s first love is connected to his first “war”/”obstacle” to overcome. The war against the White Walkers, his love with Ygritte played a big role into how that war ended and how Jon’s relationship with the wildlings came to fruition. So his second love also need to be connected to his second war/obstacle: The battle against the WW. This love-interest needs to be needed for the battle against the WW. Which for me is Nissa Nissa.
Even the death of Ygritte and Dany are connected, they both were duty vs love, where Jon needed to make a hard choice.
Ten Bears,
They’d get the blunt end of a sword in their face of they were lucky!!
Thank-you, Ten Bears. That means a lot. Your message made me a bit weepy.
I can be better, I am trying to improve, I can edit myself better, I am prone to going on tangents, I can be more considerate, more thoughtful — oh, but your message means so so much. I’m going to save it 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Yes and I think Jon’s choice will even be much worse than we think. I think Ramsay is maybe able to send some man to the wall to kill of a lot of people of the Night’s Watch. Which will leave in the end the defenses against the WW almost zero. His action to meddle into the affairs of his family will result into the defenses against the White Walkers to be lower.
Adrianacandle,
Yes and almost all are started in his first book.
Adrianacandle,
*They’d get the blunt end of a sword in their face *if they were lucky
I need to find me a Grammarly alternative T__T
.
• I’m sure he masterfully planted “seeds” and sprinkled in subtle clues to foreshadow future events. What good is it if he never gets around to the Big Payoffs?
• My half-baked, crackpot theory has been that the showrunners sprinkled in visual and aural clues in earlier seasons consistent with GRRM’s foreshadowings – and when G did not or was unable to provide the payoffs, the showrunners abandoned G’s intricate yet incomplete storylines, and came up with their own straight shot to the finish line.
That’s why (I speculate) lots of the prophecies, mysteries, and backstories were jettisoned.
Efi,
P.S. I never finished part 2 of my reply to your comment in which you embedded the video of the Cocoon/Lola Marsh song “I Got You.” (I think I mentioned it sent me down a 35 year long musical rabbit hole…)
I’ll try to finish it later and post it tonight.
Yeah. It’s possible it could be worse than we anticipate. It remains to be seen exactly what kind of chaos has erupted because Jon’s POV cuts off as he falls unconscious but I expect the situation will be explosive.
Jon asks for volunteers to march on Ramsay, he gets enthusiastic support from the wildlings (some of whom have already personally pledged their weapons to Jon while passing through the Wall), Bowen and his men disappear, Jon hears a scream, Wun-Wun has torn a knight in half who was trying to get to Val, Jon is trying to calm the situation between Wun-Wun, the queen’s men, and the Watch when he turns around and gets shanked by his own men.
That’s a big chaos ladder somebody could climb 😉
That’s my feeling too. And I suspect — at least with the magic, mysteries, and prophecies — some of it might have been too vast to incorporate into an adaptation with limited hours.
I think GRRM is great at world-building, at setting this all up — but closing the deal is another matter entirely. I think, in many ways, that is more challenging because it has to be done in a way that makes sense and connects all these various threads and puzzle pieces together into a final story.
kevin1989,
”He still is working on what he always wanted the story to lead to.”
The Big Kahuna? Still “working’?
🤣🤣🤣
Kevin, I hope you’re hard at work on TWOW, because he’s not.
Adrianacandle,
“Yeah. It’s possible it could be worse than we anticipate.”
[Based on my second-hand knowledge of the books…]
Along similar lines, I had thought that things would be worse than we or the characters anticipate because a greyscale epidemic would be sweeping up from the south just as the WWs are about to approach from the north with defenses at the Wall in disarray. [That Jon Connington guy is Patient 0 in the books, isn’t he? I think the show transferred Connington’s greyscale story to Jorah?]
I wonder if show intended to develop a greyscale story line, and then elided it (like Doran/Dorne). I found it odd that after all of the setup for a greyscale threat throughout S2-S5, it was abruptly reduced to….
Jorah got sick. Jorah got better. The End.
However this could be a planned book! story line that GRRM himself may now want to jettison in light of current events. Not sure an epidemic of a contagious disease is something he’d want to write about now…
_____
”That’s my feeling too. And I suspect — at least with the magic, mysteries, and prophecies — some of it might have been too vast to incorporate into an adaptation with limited hours.
I think GRRM is great at world-building, at setting this all up — but closing the deal is another matter entirely. I think, in many ways, that is more challenging because it has to be done in a way that makes sense and connects all these various threads and puzzle pieces together into a final story.”
Right. I suspect the showrunners had fully intended to delve further into and resolve “the magic, mysteries and prophecies,” but their plans fizzled out because G was unable to “close the deal.”
I had noticed a whole bunch of (what I believe were) deliberate clues in the show’s dialogue and visuals that pointed towards big twists and big reveals – yet those “clues” wound up as extraneous window dressing.
I guess I’ll never know…
Adrianacandle,
This [“sword in the darkness”] is probably my second favourite passage from ASOIAF.
—-
Okay, now I’m curious: What’s your #1 favorite passage?
Ten Bears,
That reminds me of an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer that had been originally set to air in April 1999 — but Columbine happened. Basically, the episode had Buffy able to listen to the thoughts of people around her and she comes across a classmate who is planning to kill all of the students. They had to pull that episode for several months (it aired in September 1999) considering what happened with Columbine.
10% of me is hoping GRRM is writing right now… my heart says, “Please,” but my brain says, “Get real.”
I fear that if I believe he is writing, I will invoke Murphy’s law (“things will go wrong in any given situation, if you give them a chance”) because I am allowing myself to hope — giving that hope a chance to be wrong. I expect GRRM is probably eating a steak while watching Gone With the Wind right now 😉 Or thinking about a thousand other ASOIAF history books that aren’t TWOW.
However, by suppressing this hope with the intention of avoiding Murphy’s Law, that is giving me hope that GRRM is writing because I am avoiding invoking Murphy’s Law by refusing my initial hope. However, as a result, I must suppress that hope to…
kevin1989,
”WW: I think the thing with the White Walkers is, that the White Walker itself aren’t the source of the invasion. What I meant with this is, the White Walkers need to have come from somewhere. They came only decades after the first long war (book 1 hints about that timeline), so we need to ask ourselves if they came after, what made them? I don’t think they go with what the show gave us, that the Children of the forest made a human into a white walker, especially when the White Walkers showed after the long night started, they are a symptom of it, not the cause. So what made the White walkers then?…”
Interesting. I believe that the books will go with CotF as creators of the WW (as portrayed in S6e5, the same episode as the Wylis=Hodor reveal, which came directly from GRRM.)
Why do you think the books won’t go with the CotF as WW creators origin story?
”Back to my conclusion: Jon needs to be at the wall, even when they defeat this invasion, a new one can arise the moment the great other is ready to invade again with his new army of white walkers.”
Yeah. I’m with you there. The WWs won’t go away for good. Just like the first time around, the handful that remain will hibernate for another few years – or thousands of years – until it’s time to get the band back together and go on tour. 🎸
Jon when he leaves Ygritte to return to the Watch to warn them about Mance’s attack:
I love this. It’s beautifully written, succinct, and I think it illustrates such an essential part of Jon’s character — all in 19 words 🙂
Ooh! That is elegantly written. I almost want to rip it off and use it in a letter to someone from my distant past…
Yeah! I feel like a piece of writing like this is similar to good design — conveys so much with minimal elements 🙂 Hard to do but when it happens, I get goosebumps.
Ten Bears,
Yeah, that’s what I think too. Only I believe they didn’t do it because of lack of material, but because they decided to sell the story which -in their opinion- sold more. I think they must have been surprised by the backlash, but in all truth no matter how they’d tell the story -Martin’s or their own- it would cause strong reactions, because it is not a good story.
It is a very dark story with bad people, and the big question is, imo, how much of themselves will the characters compromise and for what reason by the time they reach their ending. But I do not think that any of the characters in the end will be a shining knight with a clear bright soul.
As for D&D, they chose the simplest route. Boy-girl fall in love, one of them is rotten, the other kills her. Eh… it’s the simplest trope in the world, but it’s not enough to complete this story, this is why the ending feels so hollow to many.
Efi,
The thing is… GRRM’s story, per his own words, is supposed to have some positivity (sweet) to his ending, alongside tragedy (bitter):
I don’t think that can be accomplished by having a story full of bad characters doing bad things who compromise their ideals, becoming unrecognizable — that feels pretty nihilistic and hopeless.
There’s a quite a spectrum between a bad person and being a shining knight with a clear bright soul. Most characters, as with most people, as it stands now, aren’t flawless white knights who always make the right choice for the right reasons. We have our bad parts and we have our good parts. We make bad and good choices. Jon, for instance, is bleeding out in the snow because of a series of choices he made. And Shireen might be burned — and it’ll partly be Jon’s fault (if that theory holds true). Bran is mentally controlling Hodor. Sansa is (unknowingly?) poisoning her little cousin. Arya is cutting her way through Braavos. Mace is coming for Cersei. Chaos will erupt at the Wall. Dany’s deciding no more planting trees.
As it is, we already don’t have a story full of flawless characters.
But that doesn’t mean characters have to be the worst versions of themselves, I don’t think. If characters are turn all bad, if they lose their morality, compromise everything they once stood for, if they’re unrecognizable from who they used to be… what is there to root for? What lighthouses are there in this sea of sh!t? Are we always doomed to become our worst selves?
A good friend and I talked about this recently. I find that unsatisfying because it feels hopeless and nihilistic. And based on GRRM’s words above, I don’t think he’s going for that. I think the essence of ASOIAF is the “human heart in conflict with itself” — tragedy, impossible choices, sacrifice, bitterness alongside victories, scars alongside hope.
I’d also dispute, “Boy-girl fall in love, one of them is rotten, the other kills her,” is a simple story XD; It’s definitely not a happy story. It’s a pretty damn unhappy and bitter story. We’ll see if and how it’s done in the books — if we get the books.
Personally, (and with respect to those who disagree) I think the show’s ending feels so hollow to many (well, to me) is because these storylines weren’t built up or developed enough so they didn’t feel quite “earned”. It felt a bit like watching shortcuts. As I’ve gone over before, not just with Dany and Jon but with most of the characters, their storylines, and their relationships. I think we needed more of the in-between stuff, some of the richness and exploration that came with earlier seasons rather than the breakneck pace we got in the 8th season.
And I think we’re missing a huge chunk of the magic, mystery, and prophecy stuff which is a huge part of this world. As a result, these storylines felt simplified and… kind of overly distilled (to me).
kevin1989,
I think you’re reaching, but ok.
In any case, I didn’t say anything that Jon and Sansa will end up together. I don’t know if there will be a royal marriage. I have found lots of evidence about some sort of a relationship between them, even for s*x, but ending up together in this story? Difficult. That’s because of the complexity of the story, not because there’s no foreshadow. And as it happens with all foreshadow, as a reader you either see it or you don’t.
The more I read the books the more I find Jon’s ending difficult to predict. He’s constantly foreshadowed as king (not prince, unlike Bran for example), but I can’t find solid foreshadow about him ending up as king or ending up exiled for that matter. And I’ve stated before, I don’t think that Jon ending up at the Wall is progression for him as a character, because he didn’t choose it for the right reasons. He didn’t want to offer, he just made himself scarse to covenience someone else, namely Robb, who called him a bastard to his face, and Catelyn, who didn’t want him there and never could see him as an innocent boy. The circumstances of his leaving the first time are very bitter, despite the fact that he chose it himself because he didn’t belong, despite his wish to make an attempt to rise through the ranks bacause the rest of the world, and especially the North, had no place for him. Which is not exactly true; many bastards have a good place in Westerosi society –so why did Jon choose to go there then? Imo because his family didn’t want anything to do with him. So him going back there is pure, utter, bitter regression; and imo even if he chooses it himself.
The thing about Jon is that there is a pattern. No matter what he does, he always gets chosen. He is chosen to become a steward; to infiltrate the wildlings; he is elected as lord commander; he will be chosen as king by the Northerners. In this context he might even be chosen to become king of six kingdoms, but will he be? Or will he abandon the post, for the first time doing what his heart desires (whatever that will be)? I guess if the final book ever comes out, we’ll find out. If it doesn’t, well, it’s a choose your own ending situation and everybody shall be happy.
And as for the blue rose, I didn’t say anything about Sansa being symbolized by a rose. Jon is symbolized as a blue rose because of his mother. This appears in Daenerys’ chapters (in her vision) but that doesn’t bode well for Daenerys. The blue rose symbolizes death, since Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon are all dead by the end ADWD. If that means anything for Daenerys, it means death.
Wanna know who is repeatedly called “a wall” in ASoS and ADWD? Sansa. Yes, Sansa. Make of that what you will.
Jon knows nothing, basically :D. But it’s a fine choice of yours. Sadly, I don’t remember many passages of the books. I’ve read them only one time. The memories are a bit faded. Maybe I’ll be back to them one of these days.
Adrianacandle,
Clearly the abstract is on the surface about Joffrey, Lannisters and Tyrells. But I fail to see how it predicts Joffrey’s ending, since Joffrey is poisoned a few chapters later, so grandma Olenna obviously saw what Sansa is seeing there and takes action to prevent such a clash and any harm that might come to her granddaughter.
But the abstract does not start there. It starts with the Dragonknight. You know who recreated the Dragonknight as boy.
Adrianacandle,
As I said, that’s the trap. You either see it or you don’t.
But I like searching for clues like that. It makes reading so much more interesting….🙄
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
“Well, it wasn’t “only… about the love of a sister” in the show. Dany’s implied threat to Sansa (Dany specifically mentioned Winterfell in her “Dragon Uber Alles” speech) was leveraged by Tyrion to make Jon understand the threat Dany posed to all “the realms of men.” Dany was going to keep mowing down everyone in her path, and Jon was the only one who could stop her.”
Granted. I too think it will be too complicated and very political in the books, notwithstanding Jon’s feelings for both girls.
But the way I have seen this foreshadow in the books, Tyrion is not going to live. He is not as the show protrayed him, he means to take his revenge, and he means it badly. He will not influence Jon to kill Daenerys. That was just show crap because they loved Tyrion as a character and PD as a real person with too much popularity.
Yes! XD
And I’m glad others enjoy that quote too! I will have to rifle through the pages of other characters whose chapters I haven’t explored as much because my own memories are faded in places.
Efi,
Well, the passage seems to be an insight on Sansa’s part (that she quickly dismisses herself) and foreshadowing on the author’s part. It does predict Joffrey’s ending because his death hasn’t happened yet in the books — we don’t know what Olenna obviously saw at that time because we don’t have her POV. Or Margaery’s. It’s only in hindsight that we realize what Olenna did and why.
However, the passage does predict Joffrey’s death — and Joffrey dies at the hands of a Tyrell due to Joffrey’s nature. And because Cersei has arrested Margaery, Mace Tyrell is marching on King’s Landing by the end of AFFC — rallying the “men of the rose” against the “men of the lion” to wage war on King’s Landing.
Well, they were playing games as kids but I don’t think that signals Jon going to start a civil war just to save Sansa from the evil queen and conquer King’s Landing, turning it into a blood mess (if that’s what you mean?). I don’t see any connection to Jon with that passage for the reasons above. And I don’t see how that really fits Jon’s arc.
Some comments in your reply to Kevin:
These thoughts (“he just made himself scarse to covenience someone else, namely Robb, who called him a bastard to his face, and Catelyn, who didn’t want him there and never could see him as an innocent boy”) aren’t echoed in Jon’s decision to join the Watch.
I think Jon did choose the Night’s Watch for some solid reasons — he wanted to make his own mark in the world, earn his own sort of honor. It’s also seen as an honorable calling by the Stark family — Benjen joined. It wasn’t about making himself scarce.
Jon recognized he had limited opportunities in the world due to his bastardy, that he’d never inherit Winterfell, but Jon also saw this as a chance to be a hero, to be like another man he looked up to (Benjen), to earn his own sort of honor, and to rise to a position on his own merit and steam. To be a ranger and protect the realm. Jon didn’t dream of becoming a knight or anything. Jon dreamed of becoming someone of importance and by ADWD, he is.
I don’t think this series is about status progression. I think this series is about character and thematic exploration — even if it’s not an entirely happy end for the character. This series is also very much about the consequences of choices. But perhaps there is peace in this type of ending. I doubt Jon would be returning to Castle Black to make himself scarce. I think, like with LoTR, it will signal hope for the world but come at great personal cost and pain — especially for the main players. Jon may very well be destined to be the shield that guards the realms of men, not a king. I don’t think Jon’s fate is a happy one. I think it’s a scarred one.
Yes, Jon is symbolized as a blue rose because of Lyanna as it’s a big hint to his parentage and the secret of such — but I don’t think the blue rose represents death just because Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Jon all died. It doesn’t seem like this is what the blue rose is about. The blue rose seems to be about the secret of Jon’s parentage, something that does link him to Dany by blood.
I don’t agree with you on a possible Jon-Sansa lovers relationship. However, if Martin ever writes the remaining books and goes that way, I’ll take a bow to you. You’ve done some detailed interpretation exercise up there.
Apart from the fan theories, I’ve never thought of Jon and Sansa in a relationship. This opinion is grounded on the general trend of the narrative, in the books or the show. There aren’t clear parallels or connections established between the two characters as the seasons go on, until they meet in 6×04. I’ve watched the moment they hugged as two persons who went through various hardships and could finally find some comfort in a family member. Maybe some fans viewed it differently. I don’t remember those connections in the books as well, but many details have faded in my mind.
Other reason why I think they won’t be in a relationship is that both characters could think of it as incestous. Even if biologically cousins, Jon and Sansa have grown up thinking of each other as brother and sister, although not close. I don’t see Jon and Sansa predisposed to be lovers, before they know Jon’s true parentage (that revelation is expected to appear late in the story). And after knowing the truth, would they be ready for it? I doubt the idea of brother and sister, nourished for 15 years or so in the books (in the series, it’s more), would just fade away. Furthermore, incest isn’t painted in a good light in this story. A relationship between Jon and Sansa could have some grievous consequences for them. But I believe Sansa will end up ASOIAF in a high. Jon’s fate is less clear. Daenerys will die, of course. I hope Martin doesn’t turn her in a supervillain, though. It would disappoint me. I’ve felt attracted to the story by the richness of the characters and the shades of gray they had. A ending like the one we had in the show would betray that connection.
Well… I don’t think it’s a trap. I just think it needs to be more, especially in regard to foreshadowing because I feel such clues need to be more specialized beyond “rose” when a rose is not uncommon in this series and there’s a more likely connection that has been coming into fruition between books 3 and 4. Olenna Tyrell later kills Joffrey, becoming a kingslayer, to spare Margaery while, at the end of AFFC, Mace Tyrell and his men of the rose (Tyrell’s sigil) march on Cersei Lannister and King’s Landing for Margaery, who is imprisoned by Cersei — much like what Sansa’s thoughts predicted.
Meanwhile, if a flower is associated with Jon in these few instances, it’s always a winter rose or a blue flower accompanied by other details pretty specific to him (like “wall of ice” or Jon mentioning his mother).
But yeah, you’re right — we either see it or we don’t.
I’m sorry, can you clarify what you mean? I did a search of ASOS and AFFC but couldn’t find Sansa being called “a wall” but I could totally be missing something.
Adrianacandle,
Thank you! 😊 I for my part need to apologize if sometimes I become too curt; sometimes I struggle to not be impolite and I feel that I don’t always succeed.
I think that I have some academic arrogance that goes with the job*. In my line of work (which is academic anyway) they tried to point that out, or, to be honest, to beat that out of me. And for a time I did go along. Only it didn’t do me any good; nothing changed by playing along, nobody was nicer to me anyway. I’ve taken a lot of “bullying” I think, only to realize at the end (a few years ago) that it only suits them, not me. By keeping me “in line” they service themselves and it does me no good.
So now I’m back to my old self, which does include some kind of academic arrogance, with a difference, however. I no longer want to prove that I am right. People may take my views or not, it is really up to them. Their views are their own responsibility, just like mine are my responsibility and I know the reasons why I am sustaining the things I do. I just have to be me –I’m too old for anything else– and do my job.
And all that I think has affected my personal relationships too. I can’t take other people’s efforts to try to keep me “in (their) line” anymore. I’ve played good. I’ve done what they wanted at the expense of myself. It serves no one but them. So now everytime someone tries to impose something on me –to simply think in a certain way, or do something they want me to do– it simply evolves in a small revolution on my part. I have my own mind, that may come to some people’s dismay, but so it is, and I like the things that I like, and I have to do the things that I want. The “bullying” is over.
So it is. You don’t have to put up with anyone who’s not treating you well. Just don’t; kick them out of your life no matter who they are. And if you want something (like studying sth or learning some skill) don’t hold back because someone told you to. Just do it your own way –it doesn’t have to be anyone else’s way (far from it, why should it?), it just has to be your way. There’s room for everyone in this planet, so long as we don’t hurt other people in our effort to become who we want to become.
And you’re right, this place is a good place to exchange views with respect. Sometimes we may get out of line, but it’s not that bad and we’re quickly back on track.
——-
* My mind is keenly analytical; I was trained in it, but academic work really channeled what I have in me as a natural gift. That’s why I won’t rest until I have answered my own questions, which is a good driving force in my work.
Efi,
Thanks, Efi!! This was a great message!! 🙂 I will save this too! I agree.
(And don’t worry about being curt with me, I’m sorry if I’ve been curt with you — I feel I’ve gotten to know you more as a person in these recent threads when we’ve talked about our lives and I like you! I think you’d be great to hang out with and share stories! I can debate very heatedly with friends but we’re always able to push that aside and enjoy one another as people 🙂 )
This has been a great thread to open up and get to know each other, share movies, shows, music, everything. I feel I’ve gotten to know you all better through this thread, which has been awesome.
I wish we had a Discord or something! Then I could use my real name!
Adrianacandle,
Oh, no! I don’t have the e-version to search myself. She is either a wall, a wall of stone or a “wall of ice” (I think you find both versions in Tyrion’s chapters), and more elaborate versions in her chapter going down from the Eyrie. And there must be one where that singer tries to seduce her (I don’t want to use the other word).
Of course wall of stone is an allusion to her Stone epithet and her bastard status in the Vale. A wall of ice is because she’s icy cold to Tyrion.
Efi,
Oh, thanks!
I did a search for “a wall”, “the wall”, “stone wall”, and “ice wall” and found these passages in ASOS but nothing in AFFC.
One passage is talking about Shae:
And the other is talking about Sansa:
However, I don’t think this instance is enough to make Sansa the wall of ice in Dany’s House of the Undying vision when a wall of ice (the Wall) is far more associated with Jon, especially considering the blue flower? I don’t think it means anything specific about Sansa considering the same phrasing is also used with Shae.
I think I may have a possible case for this off the top of my head but YMMV 🙂
And perhaps this… the 6 instances of “I am the shield/sword that guards the realms of men” in Jon’s ADWD chapters alone, four of which Jon thinks of himself as the shield/the sword.
But YMMV.
I should find my favorite quote in the books, but I’ll do it later, lol. It’s in Asha’s chapters. And just like Adriana’s is a romantic quote, mine is all about adventure and truly captures what I think about life in general.
But, I want to say that I know you all disagree with me more or less; and that you all raise good points, and I agree with many of these points, only I don’t know where aspects like that will lead in the books. The truth is that the more I read the more this story seems very, very dark to me, and a very bad one for our favorite characters. By the end of it they’ll all be deeply scarred, not on their bodies, but in their souls. But that’s a good thing, because then the healing might begin and our characters will know better than to repeat the mistakes of the past. Perhaps because of what they’ve been through they’ll really try to change things in Westeros. That’s the point of Bran becoming king.
And of course, a rose is a rose, a wall is a wall, a dragon is a dragon, etc. But choice of words is 100% deliberate on the part of Martin, and he does it all through the five books, not just the first one. As the book progresses, foreshadow becomes more and more pronounced, if one chooses to see it. For those who said that the ending will be more complicated, of course I agree. It will be so much more than a simple boy-loves-girl situation which we saw on screen.
So here’s another piece about it (always, my opinion). Spoilers again because it’s about [part of] the ending. There’s dialog, so the quotation marks are about the things that are said. This one is from Tyrion I, WoW.
[…]
The dwarf was surprised to see Ser Jorah Mormont there as well.
“We are commanded to defend the Wicked Sister,” Brown Ben informed them. The other men exchanged uneasy glances. No one seemed to want to speak until Ser Jorah asked, “On whose authority?”
“The girl’s. Ser Grandfather is making for the Harridan, but she’s afraid he’ll turn toward Wicked Sister next. The Ghost is already down. Marselen’s freedmen broke the Long Lances like a rotten stick and dragged it over with chains. The girl figures Selmy means to bring down all the trebuchets.”
“It’s what I’d do in his place,” Ser Jorah said. “Only I would have done it sooner.”
“Why is the girl still giving orders?” Inkpots sounded baffled. “Dawn has come and gone. Can she not see the sun? She is behaving as if she were still the supreme commander.”
“If you were her and knew that Pudding Face were about to assume command, you might keep giving orders too,” said Mormont.
“One is no better than the other,” Kasporio insisted.
“True,” said Tyrion, “but Malazza has the nicer teats.”
“Crossbows is how you hold the Wicked Sister,” Inkpots said. “Scorpions. Mangonels. That’s what’s needed. You do not use mounted men to defend a fixed position. Does the girl mean for us to dismount? If so, why not use her spears or slingers?” —
So, on the surface it’s about the battle below the walls of Meereen, while Daenerys is absent from the city.
The Wicked Sister is a trebuchet or counter-siege machine of some sort, as is Ghost. They protect the Yunkai’i camp; all the trebuchets have names, but among them, there’s these two. Wicked Sister and Ghost.
As you can see, Grandfather (Barristan) and Marselen’s freedmen, which is Daenerys’ corps, have managed to break through the lines of the Yunkai’i and take Ghost.
Really? Daenerys has managed to DRAG GHOST with CHAINS???? WTF???? How much more explicit can this be? But of course it can only be a trebuchet.
The “girl” is Malazza in the books. After a series of deaths that sweeps through the leadership ranks of the Yunkai’i, she takes command, but there’s a swift change of leaders and she doesn’t have much support. Our protagonists learn in the beginning of the quote that she is overturned, and that Pudding Face (Gorzhak zo Eraz) commads now. Then Brown Ben arrives, who’s ordered to defend the Wicked Sister (one of Malazza’s last commands). The situation calls for a quick decision: who will the Second Sons support?
And then follows:
“Dawn has come and gone. Can she not see the sun?” ?????
Second WTF. DAWN; THE SUN. As you can see, it is not very clear the first time (her command “ended with the rising of the sun”. I remind you of this:
“When the sun sets in the East, and rises in the West…”
I’d rather like for “the girl” to be stand-in for Arya, but how does Arya connect to the Dawn and the rising sun? It is rather a stand-in for Daenerys.
Question: Who does Pudding Face stand for here?
Imo, if he’s a stand-in, it’s rather for Bran. He’s always described as a “sweet boy”. This one is not Jon, he’s never sweet, he’s a black bastard in the books.
So, after “the dawn” is Bran going to assume command? Hm, I don’t know, perhaps. It fits with what we saw on screen. As Ghost being dragged by Daenerys’ men fits with Jon going to her side. He wasn’t forced on screen, but if this is a foreshadow, it seems that he will be forced to do so in the books.
Wicked Sister? Firstly, why “wicked”? Why not “sweet” instead? In fact, why “sister” at all? Why not “wicked mother in-law”, or “niece”, or even “sweet wench” or sth? Deliberate.
So, they want to defend the Wicked Sister from an attack, and Ghost at this point has already gone over to the other side. And the Wicked Sister is “a fixed position”, as in, Winterfell is a fixed position.
On a grander foreshadowing scale, this entire discussion is about the Yunkai’i camp, the forces that are with them, and Daenerys. If the Yunkai’i camp in anyway represents the North after the Dawn, it shows forces about to defect. Brown Ben Plumm is a Targaryen side-offspring and about the only one who has a good “relationship” with Daenerys’ dragons. He left her in the beginning of ADWD and gone over to the Yunkai’i, but Tyrion (of course) is about to convince him to re-join Daenerys. And on the other hand, Pudding Face (Bran) and the Wicked Sister (Sansa) are on the same side, not going to leave and are under attack by Daenerys’ forces that are gathering in Meereen.
In other words, in the above abstract I think there’s foreshadow within foreshadow. It’s an astounding piece, tbh, and very explicit imo.
Will such a grand scale conflict take place in the books? I don’t think so. I think that Jon is going to prevent it by going over to Daenerys’ side, as it happened in the show. Some of it we really did see on screen. (why does she still rule, explicit threats against Sansa etc). But there’s still a lot to complete the story, and we’ll only read its entirety in the books (if ever!).
Adrianacandle,
I think that what is too obvious may be discarded if we are talking about foreshadow. It wouldn’t be that obvious, and M. wouldn’t be so easy on his readers.
Was it not an editor of M. who once said that he foreshadows things three times before he lets them happen?
If that is the case, all that is found more than thrice is red herring.
But in any case I wouldn’t take that editor too seriously unless he/she has such information from M., and I don’t think that M. discloses his secrets to anybody, not even his editors.
But my problem with that interpretation is that it is far too obvious. Of course Jon is bound to the Wall; of course he has taken the oath, upon which he reflects quite often. But why wouldn’t the “ruined command” be a stand in for WF, or for KL? Wouldn’t both be ruined after the wars?
I have the same issue with Tyrion. The red herring is that he will end up at the Wall. There is talk about it from book 1 already and it becomes blatant in ADWD. But there we find two more mentions of another ending for Tyrion. Which will it be? I don’t know. (I think it will be the second one; I also tend to think that Martin hadn’t decided what to do with him before ADWD because he is his favorite character.)
Also Jamie. Will he die, will he not? There it becomes more blurred because Jamie begins as a grey character already and heads towards a better place, so his is a reversed story, while everybody else’s is the other way round, they’re all too innocent, even Tyrion. If Martin intends to keep the parallels between Jon and Jamie, then he too will live because we know from the show (big relief) that Jon lives. I found “evidence” about Jamie’s ending twice. It’s the same thing in both cases.
Same with Sansa. If M. intends to keep the parallels with Jon, she’ll end up the same as Jon.
Bran’s becoming king is staring us in the face. But in all cases it is undercut by the fact that he is a crippled boy, that he’s on the run to save his life etc, so Bran’s thoughts are imprinted by his desperation. He’s also “the prince of Green”, which I liked very much as a concept. He’s thus connected to nature, healing, spring. It’s sweet.
As for Arya, I haven’t re-read her chapters yet. She is also very young. There are a couple of pieces that might indicate her ending in the far future after the end of ADoS. But I need to find more.
Except for this (TB will love it):
“Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. Finally he climbed down off the window. “The show is done,” he said. He bent to scratch Ghost behind the ears. The white wolf rose and rubbed against him. “You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”
Arya didn’t think it was funny. “I hate needlework!” she said with passion. “It’s not fair!”
“Nothing is fair,” Jon said. He messed up her hair again and walked away from her, Ghost moving silently beside him. Nymeria started to follow too, then stopped and came back when she saw that Arya was not coming.
Reluctantly she turned in the other direction.
It was worse than Jon had thought. It wasn’t Septa Mordane waiting in her room. It was Septa Mordane and her mother.”
So she’ll be sewing (killing) all through winter. The show is done. Arya survives. She and Jon part ways. Inside was Septa Mordaine and her mother.
If I’m interpreting this correctly, Arya will likely become lady of Winterfell or lady of some other castle. But I might be wrong. She fights such a fate all throughout the books. But again, isn’t this too obvious?
Efi,
Because it’s not explicit. I feel it’s looking for a specific interpretation and trying fit this stuff to tell a certain story the reader wants, that’s the tricky thing with foreshadowing — namely (and if I’m incorrect, please correct me), the evil queen Dany forcing the good queen Sansa’s knight Jon over to her side, who does everything and everything to defend Sansa because the evil queen is threatening Sansa.
Why does Wicked Sister have to mean Sansa? Jon’s not the only one with a sister, many characters have sisters and some of them are wicked. Why does Malazza have to be Dany? I don’t see much connection there either as I don’t see much connection between Pudding Face and Bran other than pudding being sweet and Catelyn calling Bran her sweet boy. There are also other ghosts in the story.
I do think this is tenuous. And Jon isn’t a black bastard in the books. That’s a negative reputation Jon earns in-universe while it also plays off of an unfair prejudice against bastards as well as the colours of the Night’s Watch. He’s not this bad, awful person who only cares about himself and his family. Jon makes decisions with the intent of moral good — and for strangers, much of the time. He falters (as he did with Arya) and that was not portrayed as a good decision. It led to disaster.
He’s one of the few who recognizes wildlings are part of the realms of men, makes hard choices to do the right thing, is concerned about the good of all and has sacrificed and risked to this end — not just his family. Jon is risking his neck for people who, 90% of the time, aren’t related to him.
There are hints for other stories, strong hints — there are a ton of interpretations that speculate completely different ways of this story happening from the one you proposed, including by two editors who work with GRRM.
Well, there’s a Targaryen sword named ‘Dark Sister’. ‘Sister’ is a common name for things like this, not ‘niece’, not ‘mother-in-law’, and again, Jon isn’t the only one with a sister. Many characters have sister, some of whom are wicked.
The stories your interpretations are telling are ones that make the story too simple in my opinion. Dany is the power-hungry evil queen. Sansa is the good princess/queen who must be protected. Jon is her bodyguard/knight who will do whatever it takes to defend his family (namely Sansa), sacrifice himself to the evil one to prevent conflict — but later wage war on a human city to just save Sansa — even if it compromises other people’s lives. Jon becomes like everyone else fighting for only their families.
This after Jon’s arc being built up to include even former enemies in “the realms of men”.
This doesn’t leave room for inner struggle, ambiguity of decisions, hard choices, etc. — which is what so much of the series has been about. “The human heart in conflict with itself.” This divides the sides pretty clearly and makes conflicts pretty straight forward. There’s no agony, no complexity. It feels like an even more simplified version of good vs. evil.
Plus, as kevin mentioned, interviews with GRRM and D&D have already said the endings and broad strokes are approximately the same but the details are different. This doesn’t sound like the broad strokes are the same. It sounds completely different with conflicts being us vs. them.
But why is this detail from the show relevant to Martin’s story while everything else isn’t? I would disagree Dany’s threats to Sansa are explicit and Sansa was giving as good as she got.
Efi,
It becomes obvious in hindsight once we get more information — and we got some of that information from the show. It wasn’t too obvious at the time. However, it did have multiple pieces of specific details beyond loose symbolism that could apply to any number of characters/ideas.
R+L=J, when all of these books were published, was just another theory, an unconfirmed theory. However, it was a theory with a strong and specific basis in a number of areas.
I don’t remember this but I don’t think I’ve read everything.
I think it’s now obvious because we’ve seen what has happened in the show: Jon ends up back at the Wall.
It wasn’t obvious prior to the final season.
And I think, if Jon kills Dany after Dany goes evil, it’s going to be pretty hard for Jon to become king of anything or be lord of anything. Jon will be a kingslayer and a kinslayer. This story is also about consequences of decisions: Jon will have to face those.
You can also make the same argument for the “king” foreshadowings — that this is too obvious. just like with R+L=J. D&D and GRRM have both given interviews about trying to get to the same place with both the book and TV show’s ending. That includes Jon’s ending.
But it’s not a fact that it’s a red herring. We don’t know GRRM’s plans. Tyrion might very well end up as Hand of the King somehow like he did in the show.
But turning characters dark for the sake of turning them dark isn’t great storytelling in my opinion. Much is made of GRRM subverting tropes and he does sometimes — but I think what GRRM is doing is putting these characters in realistic situations with realistic struggles and exploring how they respond, examining the benefits and consequences of each decision (how they affect the character and others):
And he’s also mentioned the importance of inner conflict — these decisions aren’t easy things:
It’s a hard story — but I don’t think it’s simply a dark story with characters who turn into jerks to protect their own.
Yet Jon and Jaime aren’t the same character or the same person. They’re each different with some arc/character similarities with different goals and some arc/character differences. What happens to one doesn’t have to happen to the other.
I don’t think Sansa and Jon’s storylines paralleled. They’re more inversed. They share some alike qualities but many differences too.
I’m sorry, I’m not quite understanding? Are you saying that Bran being king is undercut by him being crippled? I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding!
I’m afraid it’s not obvious. It’s one interpretation. People have interpreted this passage in a variety of different ways, as they’ve interpreted many passages in the story.
For over 20 years, people have picked apart passages in the story to mean different things. For nearly 10 years, people have been doing that with ADWD.
Adrianacandle,
Phrasing problem!
*I would disagree Dany’s threats to Sansa are explicit . And I think Sansa was giving as good as she got.
*You can also make the same argument for the “king” foreshadowings — that this is too obvious.
Remove “just like with R+L=J.” That was a leftover sentence fragment from a previous thought 🙂
Efi,
I’m sorry, I didn’t quite get your initial interpretation so I misunderstood some of it but I’m still a bit confused:
Are you saying Marselen is Daenerys in this scenario? How come? Why is Missandei’s brother the Daenerys in this situation? And Malazza is the one attacking Meereen, leading Yunkai against the city, which Meereen must defend against. Yunkai wants to force freed men back into slavery. Malazza doesn’t look awesome here or that she’s fighting for good.
I don’t think that’s a good parallel for Arya.
Or the parallels between these attacking weapons fighting for those who want to force freedmen back into slavery — Wicked Sister and the Ghost of Astapor — being compared to Sansa and Jon respectively.
Malazza is the aggressor fighting to take away human rights. Marselen, a former slave and freed man, is trying to defend the city.
Additionally, the trebuchet isn’t just called ‘the Ghost.’ It’s called ‘the Ghost of Astapor.’ Astapor, the city that Dany had abolished slavery in and left with a council of former slaves before Yunkai attacked, returned the city to slavery, and forced boys to be seized and become Unsullied.
And what of the other names of the other trebuchets? The Harridan, the Harpy’s Daughter, the Wicked Sister, the Dragonbreaker, the Ghost of Astapor, and the Mazdhan’s Fist.
Yunkai does want to break Dany and return these cities to slavery. I don’t really see a parallel with Dany, the Starks, and Jon.
(I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding you at all here!)
Efi,
Part 2 of my thoughts (sorry for another post!)
The situation it seems like you’re proposing (this foreshadowing Dany being the aggressor, forcing Jon to her side while she threatens Sansa and Arya fights to defend Sansa from Dany) appears to fall opposite to what’s going on in this scenario.
It seems like in your interpretation, Marselen is Dany’s parallel while Malazza is Arya’s parallel, right?
Yet, in this scenario, Malazza is attacking the city. She is leading Yunkai to take the city and return it to slavery with her forcing people back into oppression — including Marselen. Meanwhile, Marselen is defending the city as a freedman from Malazza (Arya’s) attack.
And Malazza is ruthless in her attack on this city full of civilians. She won’t stop her attack on these people, even though dawn has come and gone.
Meanwhile, Jon and Sansa are being paralleled to the slavers’ weapons in order to return these people to oppression.
It feels like in your interpretation, Malazza’s attack on Meereen is being used to allude to Dany being the aggressor who will force Jon to her side while Jon and Arya do everything they can to protect Sansa from the aggressor Dany — even though Dany’s parallel (Marselen) in this passage is not the aggressor and Marselen is doing what he can to defend Meereen from Malazza (Arya’s parallel). Malazza is trying to force people back into slavery — but somehow, this is alluding to Dany forcing Jon into the position he doesn’t want to be (like Malazza and Yunkai are trying to force freed men like Marselen back into slavery).
You also state this:
So (and I’m so sorry if I’m misunderstanding) with this, do you mean Malazza is Dany now?
But the trebuchets Wicked Sister and the Ghost of Astapor (Jon and Sansa’s parallels in your interpretation) are on the side of Malazza. Malazza didn’t take down The Ghost of Astapor, she’s working to defend Wicked Sister.
Or are these meanings shifting in these passages? The girl is initially Arya when she works to defend the trebuchet Wicked Sister and when The Ghost of Astapor is taken down by Marselen and the freedmen — but then the girl later becomes Dany?
If so, and for other reasons I’ve stated above, I think this is shaky. I think for it to work as an allusion, as foreshadowing, there needs to be more alignment and consistency.
Again, I’m so sorry if I’m missing something 🙁
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
True, even when Dany treatened Sansa, which she also did in 8×01, Jon didn’t really take action. Even in the final itself when Tyrion tried to get Jon to kill Dany his sisters life wasn’t even a thing that made him change his mind. Only the moment when Dany states nobody will get too choose, the moment when he noticed that Dany was really gone and a treat to whole of Westeros/world he took actions and killed her. He did it too safe human kind not too safe his family.
Ten Bears,
Thanks for sharing Ten Bears XD
Adrianacandle,
Nice passage. And I agree, it would devalue Jon’s arc. His whole arc is about putting aside his own emotional battles (Ned death, “Arya” with the Boltons, duty vs love of Ygritte etc) for duty for the realm, the battle against the WW. His arc won’t end with Jon starting another war and getting back to his season 1 character. Martin won’t throw out his whole character arc. And the ending of Dance Jon has learned not to put his personal quarrels before the realm.
Adrianacandle,
I’m very eager to learn more about patchface.
Ten Bears,
I’m procrastinating 😉
Ten Bears,
I see that I even made a mistake, not the long war, the long night XD
I think what the show gave us was a simplistic version. I think the CotF are involved but not how we think they are involved. The books tells us that the long night was already busy decades before the White walkers showed up. If they brought the long night (and back then there was not even a big ice wall) the White walkers would have come the moment the long night arrived.
There’s even a big theory that state that the long night came to be because of the second moon exploded and the debris crashed to Planetos, leaving Westeros dark for decades. (dust in air could make that happen). That darkness would lead to decrease of temperature because no sunlight hit the ground. That resulted into the long night.
Then decades later the White Walkers came, already when kings froze to death into their halls. So then the question is: If the long night already started for decades, and the White walkers came after, what were they really? I think they were in fact CotF themselves, the ones that didn’t agree on the pact.
Why would we think that all the CotF agreed with the pact, that doesn’t sound realistic, there’s always a group that disagree with something like that. And I think they went north, found themselves the great other, turned themselves. (CotF are very close to nature, the ones closer to earth are more like the ones we saw in the show, they look like they are made up of earth and plants etc, but there were also ones that were more like they were in contact with a lot of water. So what happen when they get into contact with the extreme cold?)
There’s also something that I noticed when I read the books not the last time but the one before. The Children could talk to the death. Talk to the death, reanimated the death?
Also what the show gave us goes also against what the books told us about the White walkers and what Martin told us about them. The show needed a human to transform into a White Walker as a walking killing machine because it shows us why the WW need to be stopped, it gave us a face that we recognize what the WW are, what their goals are (killing everyone), and that we need to stop them. It also give us the “mothership kill” ending. While with the books the White Walkers are more like a race, comparable to the Sidhe. They are not so black/white in the books as the show. There is more too them, there is no Night King (the leader that was turned first), there are even female White walkers. They have their own language that is very close to nature itself. Having the same origin of the White walkers in the books goes against that the books the ww are a race like the sidhe, are not a killing machine but something more.
Also to add the timeline, the WW came in the books decades after the long night. And the Long night was after the pact, so when the CotF and humans made their peace while in the show the WW came before the pact. The timeline for the origins of the show won’t work with the timeline of the books.
also a details I like:
– Azor Ahai was also known in Essos. A place between Qarth and Asshai. So how does the hero of the long night be known in Essos.
– Doreah’s story about the two moons. One cracked and thousand dragons came to planetos. How does burning debris look like that crash through the atmosphere? Closest that Dothraki can think of is: dragons.
Efi,
I saw that passage also on a Jon and Sansa ending together theory sites. Also you state Loras with Jon between (). So maybe my conclusion was wrong and if that’s the case, I’m sorry for that. But for me (And probably others) it came over as you suggested that the biggest mystery of the story was Jon ending with Sansa together.
I also think Jon and Sansa will have a relationship in the end, of brother and sister like he has with Arya in the end.
But I read online the evidence about Jon and Sansa having a romantic relationship in the end (I think you’re hinting about that because of the sex), and that’s what I was referring too that those arguments fall under scrutiny. It’s only evidence because they want Sansa and Jon to end up together. And the evidence is also very reaching with not really a connection between them.
Same with me, the more I read the books the more I see forshadowing. First couple of times I read the books I was: Really Jon and Dany together in the end? I wondered how people came to that conclusion and how the show introduced them as a couple (and did it very boring in my opinion I only cared for their relationship in 8×06 when it was too late too care), but reading the books the last time, especially Clash, Storm and Dance had tons of hints and evidence that Jon and Dany will end up together.
For me with Jon it’s the opposite, the more I read the books the more I can predict his story. There are lot of hints (see above with him and Dany ending together) about his ending. Especially his choice of love vs duty becomes more clear. How that is involved in the end and how the pieces will fall together. But how is jon foreshadowed as King? I maybe would think that the first time I read it, but the more I read the books which I did a lot (5/8 times already) the more I see that Jon will not end up King and that that’s not what his story is about.
For me if Jon in the end choose his duty to protect Westeros against the WWs above his personal desires and emotions than for me that is a progressive ending. But as state if he chose it, so not forced like the show did. If Martin goes like the show and have him exiled I agree, that’s a shitty ending for him, but if he make that choice himself, that would make all his personal battle (human heart in conflict with itself) in the end to the place where his character should be ending.
In the books Luwin advised Ned to send Jon to the wall. It was not his choice in the books the first time, it was Luwin’s choice. So if in the end he choose it himself to prepare westeros for another invasion, that shows Jon has progressed.
Well let’s hope we get the ending, I rather have that one than my own chosen ending.
well the blue rose doesn’t mean death, it means: “In some cultures, blue roses are traditionally associated with “blue” royal blood, and thus the blue rose can also denote regal majesty and splendor. Due to the absence in nature of blue roses they have come to symbolise mystery and longing to attain the impossible, with some cultures going so far as to say that the holder of a blue rose will have his/her wishes granted.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_rose
Combine that it was a blue winter rose, it shows it’s connected to the WW storyline.
I’ve looked at my digital version of storm of stords about when somebody was named wall.:
For a time she said nothing at all. Tyrion tried to speak of other things, but he met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he’d once walked in the north. Gods be good, he thought wearily as he watched the candle burn down and begin to gutter, how could I let this happen again, after Tysha? Am I as great a fool as my father thinks? Gladly would he have given her the promise she wanted, and gladly walked her back to his own bedchamber on his arm to let her dress in the silks and velvets she loved so much. Had the choice been his, she could have sat beside him at Joffrey’s wedding feast, and danced with all the bears she liked. But he could not see her hang.”
This was about Shae
Tyrion could hear the commons shouting out King Joffrey’s name. In three years that cruel boy will be a man, ruling in his own right . . . and every dwarf with half his wits will be a long way from King’s Landing. Oldtown, perhaps. Or even the Free Cities. He had always had a yen to see the Titan of Braavos. Perhaps that would please Sansa. Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.
This was about Sansa.
So in Storm of swords two times a person has been named a wall. One time it was Sansa (not throughout the books) and one time it was about Shae. What did these 2 have in common? Tyrion. Tyrion refer to the woman in his life as wall of ice. It tells more about Tyrion than Sansa, or is Shae also Sansa?
Adrianacandle,
“I don’t think this series is about status progression. I think this series is about character and thematic exploration — even if it’s not an entirely happy end for the character. ”
Agree with this. You can also see with George’s way of ending a book. It always ends on a character changed moment for every character, but not perse a status/plot progression in every character. Look for instance with Arya, her ending in book 1 is the death of Ned, because it ends one part of her character, and Clash start with the change.
Compare to the show who does a more plotdriven ending: Having her leave Kings Landing at the end of season 1.
Even the plotdriven endings has a huge character driven moment in them, for instance the ending of Bran in clash. It wasn’t about the burning of winterfell or him leaving winterfell, it was about the change of his character, at that moment he acknowledged that he was broken but even when broken he could do something.
hi all, trying to find a good place to put it, but this looks like a pretty active post. Just a care check during this coronavirus time we live in. I’d love to know how everyone is doing health wise; I worry about my virtual buddies here! (mods if there is a better place to put this lemme know) Thanks (oh me and my dh are fine. we are both teachers so working from home and missing the kids!)
Yes, and how these characters grow and develop from these situations.
And these are difficult situations, what I think GRRM is trying to examine:
This is something I think GRRM really started to explore with Robb, Jon, and Dany each — all of whom had the best intentions but all of whom inadvertently made choices that bring about disaster. I don’t think it’s about needing to be a bad guy, those guys aren’t great rulers either. But that only good intentions and moral goals aren’t enough. More is needed — like wisdom, foresight, sacrifice, experience, and hard decisions that may come at great personal cost and bring about personal unhappiness. And I think these decisions are going to get harder.
What a kind thing to do, ash! I’m glad to hear you and your family are fine 🙂 Everything here seems to be fine. I think Calgary is still on the lower end of risk but coronavirus infections are rising, as is the death toll. And Trump doesn’t want to let 3M fulfill Canada’s order of N95 masks for medical staff… sigh…
I know Pigeon already asked but I also wanted to check in case Chilli still comes by this thread. How are you doing, Chilli?
I also wonder (and I’m sorry if this is not the appropriate spot to put this) but maybe we could set up a Discord of some kind for WotW if enough are interested? Sometimes, these threads do get pretty long and it’s nice to just chat with everyone here about non-GOT stuff, like movies and things going on in our lives and whatnot, especially with the show over and the world currently on hold 🙂
Just an idea!
Btw ash: My mum and sister are teachers! I also got my own teaching degree! I admire you for the work you are doing. Adapting to this and teaching from home isn’t easy.
Adrianacandle,
Thanks for responding! I love the idea of a post, but wonder if forums could work. Im n ot familiar with Discord, how would that work?
What are you teaching? Yeah its been weird , esp those of us who teach younger kids or kids with special needs – online teaching just does not work when they need so much individual attention!
Anyway, guess I should go back and how you guys managed to get over 500 comments on this post!!!!
ash,
I love the idea of using the forums too! But I haven’t been able to get activated there.
Discord is a chat app that can be set up for different communities and clubs! The only thing is is that where we can spend time formulating responses on this board and post at various times throughout the day, Discord is an instant chat service so it’s a different feeling in that way.
I think a forum would probably be the most ideal option!
Unfortunately, I didn’t pursue a career in teaching after I got my degree but I got my BEd in primary/junior education (junior kindergarten to grade 6)! 🙂 I was pretty crap at classroom administration though. I ended up getting a job as a teaching assistant at one of the universities here in web development and design courses and I returned to graphic design, what my first degree was in — but I sometimes was tasked with developing visual learning aids for kids, especially those who required alternative methods of learning. In that way, it was kind of like combining my degrees 🙂 … The degrees I pursued with the sole intention of avoiding life 😉 (I was terrified of entering the real world so I went to school for as long as I could).
My sister, though, teaches grade 4 special needs and my mum started out also teaching grade 3/4 and special needs kids! Then she became one of the special needs consultants for the CCSB but because they only let you stay in that position for a certain amount of time before returning you to the classroom, she’s now a vice principal 🙂
They’re both way way better at classroom administration than I. I really admire teachers who have that down.
Yes! Younger kids and those with special needs really need so much individual attention, assessment, and alternative methods of learning! So it must be so challenging to meet those needs, having to teach remotely.
Here, Alberta laid off its support teaching staff just recently…
In another thread, I believe it was the February 3 Nathalie thread, we managed to get over 600 and that one went on for an entire month! ;D
Efi,
” As for Arya, I haven’t re-read her chapters yet. She is also very young. There are a couple of pieces that might indicate her ending in the far future after the end of ADoS. But I need to find more.
Except for this (TB will love it):
“Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. Finally he climbed down off the window. “The show is done,” he said. He bent to scratch Ghost behind the ears. The white wolf rose and rubbed against him. “You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”
Arya didn’t think it was funny. “I hate needlework!” she said with passion. “It’s not fair!”
“Nothing is fair,” Jon said. He messed up her hair again and walked away from her, Ghost moving silently beside him. Nymeria started to follow too, then stopped and came back when she saw that Arya was not coming.
Reluctantly she turned in the other direction.
It was worse than Jon had thought. It wasn’t Septa Mordane waiting in her room. It was Septa Mordane and her mother.”
So she’ll be sewing (killing) all through winter. The show is done. Arya survives. She and Jon part ways. Inside was Septa Mordaine and her mother.
If I’m interpreting this correctly, Arya will likely become lady of Winterfell or lady of some other castle. But I might be wrong. She fights such a fate all throughout the books. But again, isn’t this too obvious?”
Arya will “likely become Lady of Winterfell”?
Yes. Yes, “TB will love it.” 👸🏻
That “she fights such a fate throughout the books” would make it a b*tt**sw**t ending.
With apologies in advance (I quaffed Kettel One vodka while imagining how that would play out):
****
“But I don’t want to be a lady. That’s Sansa. That’s not me. I don’t want to be a lady!”
“There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. You’re the Lady of Winterfell now. Your place is here.”
“But…Sansa… Bran…”
“Bran is King, in the capitol. Sansa is a Bolton; or is she a Lannister? I’ve heard conflicting reports.”
“Jon, then. Bran can legitimize him as Jon Stark, Lord of..”
“It doesn’t work that way. He was never a bastard. He’s not the son of Ned Stark. He’s always been a trueborn Targaryen.
Honor. Duty. Family. Your mother would tell you that you belong here, my lady.”
“Do not call me ‘My Lady’! And I want to explore the world, and have adventures! I can leave with Jon. I don’t want to be marooned here in Winterfell.”
“You’re Arya Stark. This is your home. That is why you came back here.”
“No… yes…But I have other names, other places I want to be… It’s not fair!”
“You said “A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell and I’m going home.” And “Do you know who I am? I’m Arya Stark.” And “My name is Arya Stark. I want you to know that.” When you arrived back here you announced: “I’m Arya Stark. This is my home.”
“I did?”
“Well you did say you wanted to be lord of a holdfast. This castle is an upgrade. Think of your mother. Think of your father. They wanted you back here. They would want you here now.”
“Sigh.”
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/docteurwho/images/6/6b/Lady_Moi_.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170221210314
Efi,
Adrianacandle,
11:09 pm EDT. I’m looking forward to reading through and replying to your comments.
I got sidetracked today mapping virus hotspots and plotting numbers on a graph – and whinging about the imbecilic politicians who’ve essentially confined me to a sky cell for the foreseeable future.
Now I’m trying to imagine what the modern version of that would look like…
I’m picturing the top floor of a 60-story sky scraper or this.
Ten Bears,
😂
That’s exactly the mood! Arya doesn’t have to become the conventional type of Lady. I suppose she’ll become the first lady of Westeros wearing trousers.
You’re drinking Vodka?
My favorite is Gin.
Vodka reminds me of my time in Paris. They either drink Vodka or Champaigne there.
It also reminds me of the time I was learning Russian. We went to a russian restaurant, ordered beers. Our teacher said, ok, perhaps have some vodka too, just try it.
They brought us Putinka Vodka. They drink it in shots. 3/4 of the little shot is vodka, 1/4 is lemonade. Darn thing was so sweet to drink, so perfectly balanced, and the lemon tasted lemony and of aromatic sweetness, I have no words!
Needless to say, we forgot about the beers. I must have drunk at least a dozen shots. Curious thing, I didn’t feel drunk, but luckily enough, I wasn’t the one driving that night, and whoever was driving, was driving straight.
Ten Bears,
A skycell!
Good thing! You don’t have earthquakes in Florida, do you?
I’m close to the street and there’s some nature around.
My fantastic compatriots have been caught plotting for acquiring leave to go to their summer houses or their villages for Easter.
Our super fast effective resolute government removed the electronic option for changing addresses via the e-services.
They also announced that restriction of movement is extended to the 27th of April. But then again, just because on the 1st May my fantastic compatriots tend to go on excursions or vacation, they simply didn’t want to make it more bitter in advance.
I bet many wonder now why they voted for them.
Adrianacandle,
I don’t think that the foreshadow tells us anything about the moral quality of the characters. Nor do I think that the reputation the characters get in-universe is something to be viewed as correct, either in-universe by other characters or by the readers. Meaning, perception in-universe is influenced by the PoVs; Jon is called a “black bastard”, but the reader is called to evaluate by himself if Jon is really that bad or not.
And I also don’t think that the story is an “us vs them” situation. It’s already complicated enough for that. For example Daenerys shall probably be viewed as an enemy by the Westerosi, but Jon will want her on his side. No matter if he thinks that she is too dangerous with the dragons and all, he will discard this and bring her North. This will affect his own reception both by the Northerners and by the Westerosi. Add to that the incest, his true identity and his feelings for his family, the story shall be pulling Jon to multiple directions anyway. So I don’t see how this version invalidates “the human heart in conflict with itself”.
As for Sansa, she really puzzles me and I don’t believe I said anywhere that she’s the “good queen”. First of all, she’s not a queen and she won’t become one before the end of the story.
On the surface she’s very “tractable” as Tywin says. Tyrion thinks she’s “soft-spoken, sweet smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces”.
But she didn’t put up a real fight for resisting Olenna’s pressure regarding Joffrey; she rushed to inform everybody at court that Tyrion hadn’t slept with her, thus annuling the claim of the Lannisters on the North; she left KL and she became complicit in her aunt’s murder (by keeping silent about it) and blaming another for it (the singer). If one thinks she’s “tractable” then one should re-evaluate. Her revolutions are quiet, but they’re still revolutions, like when she stared at her father’s head without really seeing.
You may rush to point out all the reasons she did what she did, but it doesn’t change the fact that she’s already someone else by the end of ADWD. I’m waiting WoW to see why and how she will escape from the Vale. Already her first released chapter is very interesting.
The “Wicked Sister” surprised me too. But I only became alert to it after the show ending. Why “wicked”? What will she do to earn such a reputation in Daenerys’ camp? I don’t know. We’ll see.
Ten Bears,
I have never seen ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ and don’t want to. It’s terribly inaccurate id it not? I’ll give EG a pass on the dodgy English accent as the character she porttayed would have spoken aversionof Norman French though why they had a natural blonde with dyed dark hair play a woman whose historical portraits show heras blonde puzzles me. Sorry about typos as am on phone since laptop died.
Don’t know if this has been mentioned butinthe UK we’ve had a couple of conspiraloons try to set fire to 5G masts because someone on youtube told them 5G causes covid-19.
Adrianacandle,
That’s the story. I’m not talking about the story here!
And Marselen is not Daenerys’ stand-in. In-universe he’s on Daenerys’ camp and retrieves a trebuchet named Ghost. Not “Ghost of Astapor”, just Ghost in the abstract.
Efi,
Well, people in-universe don’t have insight into Jon’s actions because they don’t have access to Jon’s POV like we do. The reader knows Jon is making these choices with the moral good in mind because that’s his intent — but to the Westerosi in-universe, it appears that Jon is letting a longtime enemy who raided their keeps and took off with their daughters into Westeros and this feeds into their prejudice against bastards as evil.
It may be complicated for Jon to navigate on a surface level where people don’t trust him but that’s not the same as “the human heart in conflict with itself.”
If Jon views Dany straight up as an enemy, a threat to his family and the North, and is simply using her to win the war against the Others before he kills her for threatening Sansa, that does feel like an us vs. them situation. Dany vs. Jon/the North/his family. There’s no inner conflict for Jon here. There’s no feeling for Dany here if she’s just a straight-up enemy he must deal with and dispose of — I don’t think that meets “the human heart in conflict with itself” because there’s no real conflict of the heart. He’s just using and defeating an enemy just as the Tyrells did when they played Joffrey to secure Margaery as queen before deposing of him.
The North’s negative view of Jon doesn’t really change this from an us vs. them scenario because Jon isn’t internally divided between conflicting feelings/factions/or ideals if Dany’s just an enemy.
And I feel this characterization doesn’t expand upon Jon’s previous conflicts and struggles of the heart but instead, it simplifies them.
The interpretation makes her seem like she’s this figure who must be protected at all costs by Jon because Dany is evil and threatening her.
Maybe but Sansa isn’t morally reprehensible. She’s flawed but not a dark character. And I think she still needs to retain her better self if she’s supposed to be part of representing hope for a better Westeros in the future.
On that note, I think this goes back to a discussion we had previously. I don’t think it’s enough to say, “We did all these crappy things to secure safety for our family but now that it’s all over and there’s no more danger, we’ll do better,” — especially when they’re already making mistakes and learning those consequences as the story progresses.
If this applies to the Starks, why can’t it apply to Cersei? Littlefinger? Dany? If the Starks resort to crappy means but are rewarded with only the promise that they’ll do better, that feels like a double standard. I think the story has to show why these people are fit to build an ideal world and I don’t think that can happen by having them become terrible people and in the end, promising to heal and be better in the future.
Doing the right thing is supposed to be hard or it’s not really extraordinary, special, or notable. Doing the right thing when it’s easy isn’t really morality. Doing the right thing when it’s hard, when it comes with great personal cost and sacrifice, that’s when it shows a person’s true test of character.
Oh, I have some thoughts on the naming of these weapons! In essence, I think they are deliberate taunts targeted at Dany. Stay tuned! 😉
Isn’t that trebuchet used by Malazza (the Girl General) in her attack on Meereen?
That trebuchet is named ‘The Ghost of Astapor’.
Then who is Dany’s stand-in? Marselen is the one that takes this trebuchet down (‘The Ghost is already down. Marselen’s freedmen broke the Long Lances like a rotten stick and dragged [The Ghost] over with chains.”)
The Ghost of Asatpor was one of six trebuchets used to attack Meereen in a conquest by people who want to return the city to slavery.
And I think the story does matter here. Foreshadowing is like a puzzle — if it’s arguing foreshadowing based on specific parallels, I think there needs to be consistency for those parallels to work, especially if that passage is being used to predict a another specific future scenario like your interpretation is doing:
Your interpretation is arguing that this particular passage is foreshadowing Dany being the aggressor and forcing Jon to her side when she makes threats against Sansa — but that doesn’t align with what’s happening in this passage. Your interpretation has the trebuchets ‘Wicked Sister’ and ‘The Ghost of Astapor’ being stand-ins for Sansa and Jon while Malazza is a stand-in for Arya and the Yunkai represents the North after the war against the Others — but Malazza/Yunkai are using these trebuchets to attack the city and force its people back into suppression. Meanwhile, your interpretation is arguing that this foreshadows Dany being the aggressor and forcing Jon into submission — but that parallel doesn’t align. Meanwhile, there doesn’t seem to be a solid stand-in for Dany.
Later, it seems your interpretation has Malazza being a stand-in for Dany. But ‘Wicked Sister’ and ‘The Ghost’ are on the side of Malazza.
I don’t think it’s consistent to have meanings shift within the same passage. Foreshadowing is like a puzzle — I think it needs to have an internal logic and structure to it. Changing the meaning mid-passage doesn’t really work for that, I don’t think.
Adrianacandle,
“Dawn has come and gone” is rather connecting Malazza to Daenerys in a possible foreshadowing scenario.
What confuses you (and me in this case) is the true story that is being told. Yunkai attacks Meereen and Malazza is in charge, defending Wicked Sister. But you need to forget this story to see this as a possible foreshadow. You need to forget who represents what principle here, otherwise it doesn’t work.
If we apply this scenario to the ending (Daenerys is attacking; in-universe her men are attacking the Yunkai’i camp), then “the girl” Malazza could only be a Stark, right?
But then why is “Dawn” implicated in it?
It is for this reason that I think this line can be seen in a very narrow foreshadowing context. It’s just about Daenerys and her claim to power. I don’t see Jon anywhere here, or in this entire abstract tbh.
As you noted, there’s shifting meanings and foreshadows about the ending here, running all through the entire abstract (which is a rather big one). But to see that one has to leave the evolving story aside. If anything else, the choice of words here is very deliberate. I don’t think anyone can contest that. You can contest my interpretation, but the choice of words is unlike anything I’ve seen in the entire ASoIaF.
And tbh since I saw that piece, ending my review of Tyrion’s chapters, my appreciation for D&D rose. We did get the story, just not all the details, and I’ve been arguing all along that the story as displayed on screen and according to my interpretation was a very complex one, but not all see the complexity that I see, which is fine. Where D&D erred is that the ending as they showed it was not convincing to many, and one of their biggest mistakes was that they let Tyrion go free and suppressed the Starks to the extreme. They gave their own fairytale ending to their favorite character. Eh, well, what can we do?
I mean, I wasn’t surprised by the name 😉 ‘Sister’ is used by ASOIF in a variety of contexts, many characters have sisters, but I personally think ‘Wicked Sister’ might be a play on ‘Dark Sister’ — the Targaryen sword used by Visenya Targaryen, who helped Aegon conquer Westeros.
The names of all six trebuchets appear to be taunts aimed at Dany:
Since Malazza fancies herself Yunkai’s version of Daenerys Targaryen (but one who is fighting to return people to slavery rather than free them from slavery) and Yunkai is trying to break Dany in a conquest against her, the name ‘Wicked Sister’ may be ironically playing on ‘Dark Sister’ — a sword famously belonging to one of Dany’s ancestors, Visenya Targaryen, who helped Aegon conquer Westeros and found the Iron Throne — what Dany wants to win back. Now Wicked Sister is being used against Dany in the conquest of Dany’s city.
In the series, ghosts are also link to haunted memories, lingering presences, and troubled pasts. With great brutality, Yunkai destroyed the recently freed city of Astapor and returned it to slavery with residents now fleeing for Dany’s help. Astapor is a city Dany feels deep guilt over. ‘Ghost of Astapor’ may be an antagonistic name for Dany, reminding her of her failure.
Yunkai wants to break Dany (Dragonbreaker). They are reminding her of her failure with Astapor with ‘The Ghost of Astapor’ (the city she freed and they brutally attacked, returning it to slavery). ‘Mazdan’s Fist’ is referencing the famous Mazdan zo Loraq, ancestor to Hizdahr zo Loraq — but now that Barristan has removed Hizdahr from power and is holding him hostage, the peace with Harpy is broken and they are back to being Dany’s enemies as a result of the broken alliance with Hizdahr. ‘Wicked Sister’ might be a taunt over Dany’s Targaryen heritage with the conquest of her city (Dark Sister vs Wicked Sister).
Meanwhile, The Harridan is a war ship in service to House Velaryon. House Velaryon and House Targaryen have a history of alliances between their houses, most notably between Valaena Velaryon and Aerion Targaryen. They had three children, Dany’s ancestors — Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys — who led Aegon’s Conquest of Westeros and founded the Iron Throne. I think this may link to the usage of ‘Wicked Sister’. Both may be referencing Dany’s heritage with these names of weapons now being used against her.
In a way, this is kind of like Ramsay taunting Jon at the end of his ADWD arc with the Pink Letter. Jon’s attempts to fight personal wars (saving his sister from a monster, aiding Stannis against said monster) while preparing the defense of the realm against the Others failed. In the Pink Letter, Ramsay thwarted Jon’s efforts and is now taunting Jon over his failures: he caught Mance, is claiming he defeated Stannis, and now Jon’s plans to fight two wars at once have failed. And now Ramsay is threatening attack — as Yunkai is now attacking.
In short, I think there’s a logic behind the names of all six of these trebuchets and they’re meant to add salt to the wound of Dany’s failures.
kevin1989,
No, I do not think that Shae is a stand-in for Sansa.
It shows how he relates to women. But it also shows that Tyrion’s women do not really care about him, despite his “best” efforts. Tyrion is blind as regards women; he’s also self-absorbed, self-righteous and arrogant.
The Jonsa fandom have some really good insight into the story and they have been right about many things since forever (e.g. Daenerys burning KL).
But their views are clouded by a romanticism that doesn’t apply to the case. Martin is telling us that knights are not knights, good is not good, evil is not evil, love is not love, so there cannot suddenly be “true love” is “true love”. It cannot become the shiny example in an otherwise dark story. This is my problem with Jon loving Daenerys too. It cannot be that easy.
Rather, all these things, good, evil, love, knights, honor, duty, they are all nuanced and acquire their meaning in specific contexts in-universe and are all multi-layered, so there cannot be a singular explanation for what we are reading on these things. Just like Daenerys freeing slaves doesn’t make her totally good, or Jon defending the Free Folk doesn’t make him totally good, no romance shall be a singularly “true love” story. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not implying that any of them will not love the other totally. I’m saying that at the same time they might hate someone else totally (to put it bluntly for making a point, it won’t be that easy either in-universe) and that by itself shall complicate things and force the readers to see the characters in a different light.
Efi,
Well, I’m not confused — I just don’t think this is foreshadowing the scenario you’re proposing because it’s inconsistent and so many elements don’t align with the very specific scenario you’re saying this passage is predicting. The story of the passage itself is evident and clear — but I don’t think its “true story” is the one you’re saying it predicts.
I can’t forget specific elements just because they don’t align with the story you’re saying this predicts.
If we forget who represents who, how can this passage foreshadow Dany becoming the aggressor against the Starks and the North, forcing Jon into submission to her, and threatening Sansa while Jon and Arya rally to protect Sansa? Foreshadowing using parallels would require consistency and specific representations or everything can mean anything and that’s not really… foreshadowing…
For it to be foreshadowing a specific scenario, especially foreshadowing based on parallels, I really feel there needs to be a consistency (between paralleled stand-ins and alignment). Otherwise, I feel it’s just picking and choosing details while discarding other details to predict a story a specific reader wants to be foreshadowed. This feels like hammering a square peg into a round hole.
For instance, I don’t think it works when Malazza can represent Arya while Marselen is taking down ‘The Ghost’ and Malazza is defending ‘Wicked Sister’ — but then Malazza later changes to representing Dany when Malazza is criticized for refusing to give up her command at dawn. That sort of feels like picking and choosing to create “hints” for a desired future scenario a reader (or a group of readers) want.
As for Dawn, other elements in ASOIAF are connected to Dawn. There’s even a sword called Dawn belonging to House Dayne that is connected to so much mystery. There’s a war for the Dawn against the Long Night.
“When the sun sets in the East, and rises in the West…” seems like a tenuous connection to “Dawn has come and gone” (in reference to Malazza’s refusal to give up command at dawn when another commander was to come in).
Well, no… Dany’s men aren’t attacking the Yunkai camp. And Dany herself is not attacking Yunkai here. Dany’s not even there.
Yunkai is attacking Meereen, Dany’s city. The Yunkish leader died in the fighting pits, they peace with them has broke, they’re seeking retaliation.
I don’t think we can apply this scenario because I don’t think it does work. I feel it’s too inconsistent to predict the very specific scenario you’re describing and too many things conflict.
Malazza was supposed to give up her command at dawn and pass it to another commander but she’s refusing.
Even within the passage itself, you’re shifting Malazza to being Arya to being Dany and the parallels aren’t consistent.
Maybe this is foreshadowing a certain story but I think it fails too much to foreshadow this one.
Yet how is it just about Dany and her claim to power? The connection between “”When the sun sets in the East, and rises in the West…” and Malazza refusing to give up her command at dawn seems tenuous to me.
Well, that’s not exactly what I noted. I argued the shifting meanings you’re applying here is what I think damages this passage as effective foreshadowing. I think that makes this passage too inconsistent to be predict the scenario you’re saying it does.
I can’t leave aside the evolving story because you’re using the this specific passage to predict a very specific scenario that falls in contrast to what is happening within this passage. I can’t just discard what doesn’t work.
It might be foreshadowing something — but I don’t think it’s foreshadowing this.
I’m sorry, I don’t quite understand. I’m not sure how the Starks suppressed to the extreme by show’s ending? Bran ends up King of the 6K, Sansa is Queen in the North, and Arya is free to live her own life.
Meanwhile, Jon was exiled. I kind of think the story was contrived to have him survive Grey Worm because Grey Worm not executing Jon on the spot doesn’t make sense. But Jon facing consequences for killing Dany does makes sense. That’s kind of a big part of what ASOIAF is about — even if the action saves lives, it still comes with consequences (personal end legal). And these are those consequences.
Efi,
While I think there is a lot of the tearing away of the fairytale — knights are not always noble, perceived-villains are not always villains, but I don’t know if GRRM is saying exactly all of this.
Martin doesn’t whitewash love or love stories. It can be pretty brutal for characters and situations when they love each other (Jon’s actions of trying to save Arya ultimately put the defense of the realm in danger, Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna and civil war erupted). He seems to use love as a complication, as something that makes doing the right thing all that much harder, as a temptation, as a conflict that makes decisions particularly agonizing and painful — “love vs duty”. That is a terrible, terrible choice.
Alt Shift X said this about Jon’s character:
And sometimes, such heroism has a lasting impact on that person, much like it did with Frodo, who was forever scarred and couldn’t return to the Shire — the place he fought so hard to save and gave up so much of himself to save.
Additionally, what Martin seems to be talking about a lot is people making choices, for good or for evil, but all these choices have motivations — and consequences. Just because a choice is made by a good guy with good intent, that doesn’t mean it can’t result in disaster endangering them all. Bigots sometimes might have a point (Bowen Marsh and co. are jerks but their concerns about Jon’s neutrality and his actions bringing about disaster are well-founded).
This seems to be the essence of GRRM’s criticism of Aragorn and he examines Jon’s choices in the same way:
At the same time, Dany’s dark turn has been predicted by quite a few non-Jonsa shippers (Adam Feldman). Dany turning dark isn’t a Jonsa-specific theory. It’s a theory many Jonsas like, yes — but it’s not specifically a Jonsa theory in the way their other theories are, which haven’t come to fruition on the show.
But I find most shipper theories to be that way — agenda based. Working from the conclusion backward instead of examining the text and concluding based on that.
I’m sorry again for another message but can you point out the chapter in which this happened? At his wedding, Joffrey also seems to believe they did consummate the marriage:
But I could totally be missing something 🙁
Dame of Mercia,
Not surprised, you know of course of an engineer driving his train to try and hit a hospital ship and got 500 yards away before stopped
Ok because I don’t want to read through all the posts, I will make some movie suggestions for distraction purposes
Animation : Up, Wall E, Toy Story 1-4, Ratatoulie, Incredibles, Inside Out, Lion King
Laugh Out Loud: Airplane, Top Secret, Young Frankenstien, Blazing Saddles, Men in Black, Trading Places, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, 4 Weddings and a Funeral, Go Up a Hill Come Down a Mountain, Death at a Funeral (british version) Salmon Fishing in Yemen, Princess Bride, Roman Holiday
Drama: Juno, Kings Speech, Godfather,Little Miss Sunshine Argo, Creedo, Th
Silents: Sunrise, Metropolis, Wings, The Kid, Gold Rush
Now returning you to your GOT discussion already in progress….
ash,
Here it’s getting better, less and less people are getting infected every day, and less people die. I think that’s a half win.
But even if we get it under control, they made it clear on tv that these measurements will be there for 2 years. It maybe get lifted at a moment, but then at a moment they need to get into place again. So they made it clear to us that until there is a vaccin, we will get probably get couple of weeks measurements and couple of weeks without, and that that will alternate the next couple of weeks.
As for in my family, luckily everyone is fine who is close to me, even the one friend who got carona is fully better.
And how is it with you Ash?
Adrianacandle,
Fully agree.
ash,
I also like the idea of using the forum more.
Efi,
I also wonder what kind of queen Sansa will be (if she becomes queen).
And sorry if I sometimes come of a strong with my opinions, I always try and am respectful of others opinion. I can see if some of my comments can be very strong.
Efi,
First off about the Sansa is a wall. You stated above that in SoS and Dance many times Sansa is called a wall, you wanted I think (correct me if I’m wrong) suggest that George wants us to connect Sansa to Jon by calling Sansa a wall.
But when I looked at my e-reader version of the both books, only 2 times somebody is called a wall, one time about Shae and the other about Sansa and Dance nobody was referred to as a wall. As you state this says more about Tyrion than about Sansa. But still Sansa didn’t get to be called wall through the books. She was referred to it one time not many times. In the end your statement make something more about something that really happened in the books.
Tyrion stating 2 times one time about shae the other about Sansa calling them a wall and the conclusion is: Through-out sos Sansa is called a wall.
To go to the second point the Jonsa fandom. I’m very known about that fandom, I looked at their arguments, even fact-check their arguments, and like above what you did what Sansa is a wall, it was very reaching. They made things up that didn’t happen in the books, make a quote that was about another character suddenly about Sansa (or Jon) to forfill the goal of Jonsa being the endgame (like happened with the Sansa is a wall).
I saw arguments and events twisted to made an argument about Jonsa, I even saw words of George being twisted, or twisted the words of people working on the show. They for instance state that Bryan Cogman is a Jonsa, while Bryan Cogman stated that there was nothing between Jon and Sansa and Jon loved Daenerys. They hate on Alan Taylor who states that Daenerys and Jon being the end couple comes from George, I saw some vile critic against Alan Taylor which personally make me a bit sick, and I mean really hateful comments about him.
Also the way Jonsa comes to their theory is also a bit backwards. Every theory that is online, people find clues in the books, they combine those clues and come to an conclusion about their theory. Like for instance a while back I read a chapter of feast, Jaime I or Jaime II (can’t remember which I think the second one) and there was a quote about 2 miners missing and only earth was to be found. While the Arianne chapter was still fresh about the Children of the forest living in the cave in the stormlands that she met in winds. My conclusion is: Children of the forest killed those two miners and converted them too earth. I’m probably wrong but still I first looked at the clues the books gave then I made up my conclusion.
This is not how the Jonsa fandom works. What they do is, they first have their conclusion without even looking for evidence. Jon will end up with Sansa. Even without evidence they are certain, why are they certain: Because they want Jon and Sansa to end up together, so it will happen, and if it doesn’t GRRM changed his mind of his well build plan since day 1.
What they next is reading the books and even the slightest hint that can suggest Jon could maybe end up with Sansa they write down, even if that quote is not about Sansa but another character, it’s suddenly about Sansa because that could mean it Jonsa will happen, what does it matter if the quote is really about Sam, Dany, Arya, Cersei etc if changing it to Sansa fits the theory, it fits.
So for me the Jonsa fandom is something I will not become a part of, because my opinion is that they are far of from reality, and they are vile to people who worked on the show. That same thing I have with some parts of the Daenerys fandom. Both are groups I really don’t like.
As for they had Dany burning KL right. Well for me, I’m far from a Jonsa and I even thought it that she will burn KL down after season 7 ended, I think I was even one of the first suggesting this on this site and I was called crazy for it. It was a logical step into the story, because I wanted to know why she killed the Tarly’s storywise, for me the only answer was that that would be either a moment that will show her into a dark image which she needs to overcome, for the show there was no time for that, so I came with my second thought she will burn KL down to end Cersei. With this also comes: If you write 100 theories, there is a big chance at least one is right.
To end my comment, this doesn’t mean I think Jon and Sansa don’t end up together, maybe they will, maybe they won’t. But if you ask what I think: Probably not. All the evidence roll into Jon and Dany being the couple of the story (and you know from my season 7 comments that I’m not a fan of them together, never was, so I hope George will write that storyline better than the show did).
As for dark turn in their relationship, well I think Jon and Dany will end up together and their relationship end darker than the show did. Not by having Dany turn dark, but having something far worse happening to her than that. See below for what I mean.
There’s one thing that is in all the books and every book up the information about it: Azor Ahai, the prince that was promise and Nissa Nissa his lover. How did he end the long night the first time? By plunging his sword into the heart of the one he loved the most Nissa Nissa and forming Lightbringer. Nissa Nissa needs to do this willingly.
I like many believe, this is Jon killing Dany to forfill the Nissa Nissa prophecy. And Dany will do this willingly.
So what’s the catch because this feels a bit to happy, hero stabs another selfless hero and they defeat all evil. Well I think the big catch is that like warging can put somebodies soul into an animal after the person dies, I think the Nissa Nissa ritual does the same. Dany’s sole will be stored in Lightbringer and my guess is stores somehere else. I’m still not sure where it’s stores I think either the wall or into the entity that is the great other. And I think Dany’s soul will be alone for 8000 years until the magic fades and the new invasion comes again. That’s the dark turn of the books is my guess, Dany’s fade is not to just die, but to be alone without family, friends (the thing she longs to) for 8000 years.
Adrianacandle,
Agree, with shippers I feel like that is done a lot. Evidence that suggest their ship never will happen is thrown out and made-up arguments is made up with shippers. Also if evidence of their ship will happen they say: they predicted it, if the opposite happen its: Martin changed his mind, this was not what he prepared since he wrote the first book.
kevin1989,
Hi Kevin we are doing very well, as are our friends and family. Hoping that continues. I worry tho of word that its going to get much worse before it gets better and how that will affect those I know and love (we both have elders in our families so we are looking out for them) I think of my students and their families all the time and stay in touch with out of town friends.Otherwise we are doing what we usually do – garden, read, watch movies, go ‘out’ to eat , albeit a tad differently from usual. My biggest concern (not really) is that I am due for a hair cut and dye, and think I will end this thing with a brand new color of hair…… Stay Safe, Stay in, Stay Smiling
Efi,
But the way I have seen this foreshadow in the books, Tyrion is not going to live.
That would be an interesting outcome, but GRRM has stated clearly that the show’s ending is the same as his ending for the major characters — and Tyrion is not merely a major character, he’s GRRM’s favorite character. So I think he’ll survive. (Whether he becomes Hand of the King is another matter.)
He is not as the show protrayed him, he means to take his revenge, and he means it badly.
Referring to morality, GRRM called Tyrion “the grayest of the gray,” and he’s definitely not the same character as in the show. (D&D simply had to “clean up” many of the characters to make their show palatable to a modern television audience. The books are much closer to Dark Age Europe in terms of brutality and cruelty.)
In the show, the Hound demonstrated the futility of revenge the hard way. In the books, GRRM might give a similar lesson by having Tyrion spend all kinds of time and effort in getting his revenge upon Cersei, only to have her killed by an unrelated character.
Adrianacandle,
It’s in Tyrion’s first chapter after the marriage. The one he has a talk with his father about it. “Sansa talked”, while poor Tyrion had taken every precaution for having no witnesses in the bedding.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction to the passage you’re thinking of 🙂 Is this the passage you’re thinking of?
Tyrion is feeling insecure, that everyone is laughing at him, and he fears that this is because Sansa is his wife but she is still a virgin. He wonders if Sansa either confided in one of her bed maids (that scenario wouldn’t be the same as Sansa rushing to tell everyone at court how Tyrion didn’t sleep with her) or Varys’s little birds discovered the truth — but both are unconfirmed. Even Tyrion remains unsure. The feeling that everyone knows he didn’t consummate the marriage is likewise unconfirmed — Tyrion is moody because he’s feeling laughed at and thinks that it seems everyone knows his wife remains a virgin.
There’s also their marital sheets lacking evidence of intercourse.
But I don’t think this is evidence or confirmation that Sansa was telling everyone how Tyrion didn’t sleep with her. This passage is talking about Tyrion’s insecurities and moodiness, feeling laughed at and that everybody must know he didn’t consummate the marriage.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
Yes, that is true. He did say that. However, this was a statement that happened before the actual ending of GoT, so it is possible that it depends on prior information he had. Martin having decided to withdraw from the production, since it was going to a place he didn’t want, and since he had other projects taking up his time, it is far-reaching to assume that D&D would have kept him informed about each and every detail and last minute decision they had taken about the show. So I don’t think that when Martin made that statement he had all the facts right. After the ending he didn’t once repeat anything close to that. Perhaps he should have, just for defending D&D. But his famous “yes and no” reply leaves lots of room for assuming that the ending of the books will diverge significantly from the show, especially regarding the characters’ ending, since the “broad strokes” are the same.
Perhaps you think that I’m overanalyzing things, but I’m trained to read between the lines anyway, and such statements conceal much more than they reveal. The backlash after the show ended is the reason why Martin now devotes most of his time to the book. If it doesn’t come out, the readers –his own audience– will forever remain with the flavor that in his imaginary world he who has killed his father and his mistress and brought an enemy with a nuclear deterrent to his own country simply for taking his revenge on his own family shall be rewarded in the new regime.
You could say that this was D&D’s mistake, that Tyrion’s ending was transferred clumsily on screen and that Martin’s ending will be much better. But it wasn’t D&D’s mistake. They simply did what they wanted with their favorite character, which they had every right to do, because after all the story as they narrated it corresponded to the expectations of a large part of the fandom that only knows witty, smart and kind show Tyrion.
But Tyrion in the books is completely different. He’s a hateful little creature; he is truly smart, but he is far too ambitious for his own good while all along maintaining his right to live in prodigality, discarding social rules just because he thinks he is entitled to it because he received no love growing up. His immorality and his crimes would take a very long post to explain.
Perhaps I should do it at some point. I am convinced that Tyrion won’t make it out alive. But then again, what do I know….
Adrianacandle,
Tyrion didn’t once confirm that he didn’t consumate the marriage. But Sansa talked. He recognizes in this chapter that everybody knew already. This could only have come from her, not Varys. There was no one else in the room anyway. Are the sheets mentioned anywhere? I don’t recall at this point.
Efi,
Oooh, I think I see what you’re talking about! (Re: the following passage) I’m sorry I blanked out on this! 🙁
But I still don’t see where it says Sansa rushed to court and told everyone herself? Sansa’s bed maids may have realized because of the sheets and lack of evidence of intercourse.
Tyrion suspects Sansa might have confided in a bed maid but that’s unconfirmed. Even he’s not sure. As far as I know, this is not confirmed by Sansa’s POV either (but I’ll check).
Also, Tyrion considers Varys’s spies, which I think is an option. Varys has spies everywhere who pick up conversations — Sansa and Tyrion audibly talked about not having sex that night and the consummation of their marriage would definitely be a subject of interest. And the sheets remained clean — no blood, no other stuff.
In the show, Shae examines the sheets the morning after and finds them clean, realizing there was no intercourse.
There are a few ways this could have gotten out.
Efi,
CC: Tensor,
Martin did call Game of Thrones a faithful adaptation of his books post-finale:
(Welt, January 2020)
The film, Gone With the Wind, is pretty close to its book source. Martin has also said this kind of stuff prior season 8 about having two different versions of his story:
(April 2019, 60 Minutes)
He’s also given the Scarlett O’Hara comparison (May 2015, Not A Blog) and talked about two different versions:
Until the books come out, I don’t think we’ll know what the differences will be…
I don’t know… Martin has been saying this same stuff about devoting everything he can to completing the next book for years 😉 Even before the show.
Adrianacandle,
Shae was not anywhere near Sansa in the books. The other maids could have known, providing we take it for granted that there’s blood on the sheets in the first contact (which, as you know, is not the case; if there is a bleed it’s not enough to reach the sheets) and there’s no discussion about sheets anywhere in the book, as far as I recall.
And, anyway, I don’t understand why you have such a problem with this. Doesn’t Sansa’s talking make Tyrion look better?
And LF knows and Sansa repeats it to him. It is based on this that he can claim that an uncosummated marriage can be cancelled.
Adrianacandle,
You’re a spirit of dissension! 😂
Of course it’s a “faithful adaptation”.
But that is not a precise adaptation and the “butterfly effect” justifies many changes from book to screen, e.g. Tyrion’s ending.
Martin’s statements try to justify D&D and at the same time hint at big differences from book to screen.
And I think he should stop bringing up the Scarlet O’Hara example. In the film adaptation Rett doesn’t come back to Scarlet. If that happened, it would be a big difference. If Melany lived, it would be a big difference. If Ashley was in love with Scarlet, it would be a big difference.
It’s not the same. I’m not questioning if Sam will have one or two children by Gilly. I’m questioning the fate of Jon and Tyrion, and that’s like questioning Ashley being in love with Melany.
I guess that I’m saying is that Martin is not very honest in all this and the only way to overcome this situation is to publish the damn book.
Efi,
It’s not about making Tyrion look better, that’s not my concern. It’s about the accuracy of the statement that Sansa talked to somebody in King’s Landing/rushed to court to tell everyone. I can’t find any confirmation of this. This is why I’m questioning it.
I checked Sansa’s chapters post-wedding night with Tyrion. She doesn’t reflect on telling anybody in King’s Landing that Tyrion failed to consummate the marriage.
Sansa tells her aunt Lysa on-page… but she doesn’t reflect on confiding about this to anyone else in King’s Landing.
In many cultures, it has been a practice to check the sheets after the wedding night to see if intercourse occurred — like checking for bloodstains, which supposedly prove the bride has lost her virginity. In real life, no, this is not 100% accurate — but it’s how people would conclude whether or not a marriage has been consummated and therefore, validated.
Also, Varys’s little birds are an option. I just can’t find confirmation that Sansa told anyone. Maybe she did! But I can’t find much textual evidence to support that.
Did she? I can’t find where Sansa told Littlefinger about Tyrion not sleeping with her but I may have missed something. I can check again.
Efi,
I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be combative. I just don’t think some of these statements are entirely accurate, that’s why I’m questioning them. That’s where my quibble lies, like the statement that Sansa told everyone that Tyrion didn’t consummate their marriage because I can’t find confirmation of that.
But maybe I’m picking too many battles :/ If I view a statement isn’t entirely accurate and I have conflicting information, I do tend to discuss them. If I’m not so sure or ill-informed in that area, I tend to drop it. Sometimes, when I make inaccurate statements in my own posts, it bugs me to death.
You stated Martin said nothing like his statements to 60 Minutes in April 2019 about the endings post-finale. However, Martin did call Game of Thrones a faithful adaptation in January 2020.
Game of Thrones is an adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire. Whether you think Martin is trying to justify D&D or not with this statement, it’s still what Martin said. Martin has always explained how there are differences between adaptations and its source material but this doesn’t make the adaptation less of an adaptation.
In the film, doesn’t Rhett go back to Scarlett? He gives her that famous, “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn,” and the movie ends.
Doesn’t Melanie die in the books too? I don’t remember Ashley being in love with Scarlett in either version? He thinks of her fondly… but maybe I’m misremembering a detail. Scarlett is in love with Ashley though…
GRRM isn’t saying the adaptation is the same as the source material. He’s acknowledging the differences — as he acknowledges exist in every adaptation. That doesn’t mean it’s not a faithful adaptation. There are differences between Gone With the Wind and its book counterpart but I feel the film is still pretty faithful.
As for ASOIAF and Gone With the Wind, we don’t know what the differences will be between the books and the show. Only those who know Martin’s plans do. The only thing D&D confirmed about Martin’s ending is that Bran is the final king.
I don’t see where Martin is being dishonest. He can have his opinion, even if some disagree, especially when it’s regarding his own work and he himself knows the ending. Martin has been honest about the differences and what he thinks D&D should have doen (ie. Stonehart).
Efi,
Re: Ashley and Scarlett.
Oh yes, I’m remembering wrong. It looks like Ashley does love Scarlett in both the book and the film:
The book’s passage:
The film also appears to have this scene in it. The following scene is an adaptation of the above:
I’m not saying there aren’t differences between Gone With the Wind and its book counterpart but I think the movie is pretty faithful to the novel.
Typo in my above post!
*As for ASOIAF and Game of Thrones.
I didn’t want to see “Kingdom of Heaven” either – until I did. I’ve heard the [much longer] director’s cut is better than the theatrical release.
I don’t know if the movie is “terribly inaccurate.” It does try to portray evenhandedly Muslims vs. Christians fighting over Jerusalem, instead of vilifying one side or the other.
Is Eva Green a natural blonde? I thought she was good in the movie. If anyone may have been miscast, it was Legolas – I mean Orlando Bloom.
Anyway, I liked the movie – and if nothing else it’s worth it to see Ser Jorah Mormont as King Richard the Lionheart.
kevin1989,
”…I also wonder what kind of queen Sansa will be (if she becomes queen).”
——-
On the show (and presumably in the books?) Sansa dreamed of being a queen someday, unlike her tomboy little sister.
As a book reader, do you wonder whether the Big Kahuna will invert the sisters’ desired fates?
https://m.buro247.sg/images/culture/maisie-williams-womancrushwednesday-buro247.sg.jpg
👸🏻
On the topic of GRRM, my best friend, following GRRM for years, once (very accidentally) indirectly insulted him on his LiveJournal and he gave her the best reply XD
Efi,
And I think he should stop bringing up the Scarlet O’Hara example. In the film adaptation Rett doesn’t come back to Scarlet. If that happened, it would be a big difference. If Melany lived, it would be a big difference. If Ashley was in love with Scarlet, it would be a big difference
Oh I so agree, it was apt in earlier seasons, but everytime I see him use it I roll my eyes – really? Yes the book is different from the show and the show needed to adapt some parts to make it more palatable to a modern audience, but you’d think by now he’d think of another analogy!
loving the Tyrion conversation. One of you mentioned how insecure he was, and imagined everyone laughing at him. Well everyone was, since he was born so he just figured it was true now!
I do wish in season 8 there was some conversation with Sansa thanking Tyrion for how he treated her back then. Also wish both of them had used their knives to protect the people in tombs. Ah well just a few of many ‘wishes’ I had (biggest is wish Martin had finished the damn books!
Adrianacandle,
Adriana you need to read more carefully.
I never said that Ashley is in love with Scarlet.
The point is that Gone with the Wind is really a good adaptation and faithful to its source material. That doesn’t have anything to do with the number of Scarlet’s children; it has to do with it’s essence. Scarlet is so blind and obsessed with Ashley that she loses the love of her life.
GoT is not that accurate to the essence of ASoIaF, unless you think that Jon should be forever condemned for his kin’s murder who was a mass-murderer herself but Tyrion should never be punished for his own father’s murder.
And Martin defends GoT but is always quick to point out that there are significant differences, even in the excerpts you quoted.
“Well, mermaids don’t exist. You can choose the version you like best. That goes for any story adapted for cinema or television. In this process, change is inevitable. Even if the adaptation is as faithful to the literary original as it was in Game of Thrones.”
You isolate the phrase that supports what you say and leave outside what contradicts it. Jouralists work that way.
It is very convenient to isolate only the phrase you want. What about all the rest? Martin truly justifies the changes here.
He says “yes, there are changes, even in this faithful adaptation”.
And this:
“the longer the show goes on, the bigger the butterflies become. And now we have reached the point where the beat of butterfly wings is stirring up storms, like the one presently engulfing my email”
Here he says that the changes have become a “storm”. [avalanche is the better word, but I guess storm may represent the anger of his followers]
If you want to remain to the “faithful adaptation” it’s fine. But it’s your opinion. Just allow me to have mine.
I’d bet millions of book readers would gladly pay for a pinup calendar with “tastefully concealed nude” shots of GRRM – if it came as a centerfold in TWOW.
Hell, if King Robert could strip down for the good of the realm… why not the Creator himself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlwLcULWLNQ
P.S. Sorry about bad quality of this video. I couldn’t find a better one.
Efi,
Perhaps you think that I’m overanalyzing things,
That’s an interesting statement to make to a mage! 😉
But no, I don’t think you’re over-analyzing things. I think you’re making unjustified assumptions in support of your wishful thinking:
Martin having decided to withdraw from the production, since it was going to a place he didn’t want, and since he had other projects taking up his time,
Yes, he had other things to do, *and* he trusted D&D to reach the place he did want. He’s said clearly the two versions of the story will end the same, at least for the major characters, and Tyrion is a major character.
…it is far-reaching to assume that D&D would have kept him informed about each and every detail and last minute decision they had taken about the show.
He told them how it ends, and he gave them three plot points they had to show along the way: the burning death of Shireen Baratheon, the meaning (history, and fate) of Hodor, and that Dany was really the big villain. Each of those could have different set-ups in the books than we saw, but they will all happen — just as his major characters will live to the end, as we also saw.
So I don’t think that when Martin made that statement he had all the facts right. After the ending he didn’t once repeat anything close to that. Perhaps he should have, just for defending D&D.
He clearly said they reached the ending he had planned, at least for the major characters. Tyron is a major character.
But his famous “yes and no” reply leaves lots of room for assuming that the ending of the books will diverge significantly from the show, especially regarding the characters’ ending, since the “broad strokes” are the same.
Um, no, that contradicts itself. If the “broad strokes” are the same, then why would the ending differ?
The backlash after the show ended is the reason why Martin now devotes most of his time to the book.
First, we can only WISH he’d devote more time to finishing the books, and second, even if he IS doing so, you can’t assume this is his reason. The “backlash after the show ended” was from a small (yet loud) minority of viewers who were extremely angry at D&D for doing exactly what Martin had told them to do: to reveal their heroine and favorite Dany as the mass-murdering, delusional tyrant he’d long been planning for her to become. Overall ratings and satisfaction with the show remain high, and D&D have gone onto bigger things as a result of their success in telling Martin’s story the way he wanted it told (as far as it could be told, within the constraints of a television budget).
If it doesn’t come out, the readers –his own audience– will forever remain with the flavor that in his imaginary world he who has killed his father and his mistress and brought an enemy with a nuclear deterrent to his own country simply for taking his revenge on his own family shall be rewarded in the new regime.
So far, in the books, Tyrion wants revenge upon Cersei. D&D bent over backwards to show Tyrion does not want revenge upon her, but just the opposite: he goes to ludicrous lengths to save her life, lengths so extreme they help to provoke Dany’s final swing to villainy. (The script for the finale says that as he looked upon devastated King’s Landing, he thought about how he’d wanted to replace Cersei without violence.)
I agree with the rest of your comment about Tyrion in the books, but I have seen nothing from Martin which indicates he’ll have Tyrion die before the end of the story.
I do hope you don’t spend ten years / twenty years / forever awaiting an ending which disappoints you / doesn’t arrive / both.
ash,
I think the scene probably exists in the extended blueray version of season 8, but I might be mistaken. It would have been nice to see.
But I don’t think that Sansa owed Tyrion anything, even in the show. He married her for her claim. He was a grown up who married a child. And tbh the scene where she “apologized” for leaving him at the wedding of Joffrey bothered me a lot. Even in the show she didn’t have to have any kind feelings toward one who came from the family that butchered hers.
In the books Sansa is cold, sullen, and polite to him; she doesn’t have anything to say to him and that’s for the best.
Efi,
Efi, I’m not trying to prevent you from having your opinion. I’m expressing mine on a public forum in which you offered your view. You are likewise free to disagree with mine and debate it because I’m also making these posts on a public site.
I’m disagreeing with some of the statements you are making — that GRRM is “justifying” D&D’s changes by calling it a faithful adaptation but he’s being dishonest because he’s also pointing out differences, or that he didn’t make any statement like what he said in his 60 Minutes interview after season 8 aired.
But please correct me if I’m misunderstanding.
Maybe GRRM thinks that, relatively speaking and considering all the adaptations, GoT is a faithful adaptation of ASOIAF. I think he’s allowed to have his opinion too on the adaptation of his own work.
I’m truly trying to read as carefully as I can. I’m sorry if I misunderstood you. You said, “If Ashley was in love with Scarlet, it would be a big difference,” so I didn’t know quite what you were saying. I thought you were saying Ashley is in love with Scarlett in one version but not another. I’m sorry for misunderstanding.
If that happens, please correct me on what you mean.
I think GRRM is pointing out how things can change between an adaptation and its source material by using Scarlett’s children as just a simple example of a change.
Personally, I think GoT is a far more faithful adaptation of its source material than say, the examples Martin gives in his quote (ie. The Sookie Stackhouse novels) and other adaptations like The Vampire Diaries and the 2017 version of Anne of Green Gables. Those adaptations have extremely little to do with their source material and go off in entirely storylines. The only commonalities they share are names and the basic premise. That’s not the case with GoT.
I think, in general, GoT is accurate to the essence of many of the concepts ASOIAF was trying to explore but not to everything (ie. the exclusion of much of its magic) and they weren’t nearly as complex. They were greatly streamlined to fit into the limited hours that the television show had and the medium of television itself — the differences between mediums being something else Martin points out as having their individual strengths and weaknesses.
In the latter seasons, especially season 8, I think the concepts behind the ideas work but they were poorly executed. I think that the show needed far more time to execute them well and really explore them, build to these plot points and basic plot beats, develop the in-between stuff, because as it is, it came off like a season of short cuts. If this had been done with season 3’s pacing, allowing time for those intimate character moments and giving the plot time to breathe and work with this basic beats, I think it could have worked.
I haven’t said the details in between these broad strokes would be the same or that the books need to do everything the show did. I think those things will be different but the bare bones will be similar.
In the show, I think Tyrion being made Hand was weird but maybe it’ll somehow work in the books. I think Jon surviving Grey Worm after killing Dany was contrived because they needed Jon alive at the end but maybe the situation with how it’s done in the books will have Jon’s survival make sense.
Jon is punished for kingslaying, not kinslaying. I think Jon is damned in the eyes of the Gods for kinslaying because it’s not publicly known that Dany is Jon’s kin. Plus, the punishment for such is at the discretion of the monarch. Bran did it to appease both sides (the Starks, wanting Jon freed, and Dany’s supporters, wanting Jon dead). Jaime wasn’t legally punished for Aerys’s death. He was pardoned by Robert Baratheon in a legal sense. However, Jaime was scorned in the eyes of society for killing Aerys, even though Aerys was a hated king, and that became his start of darkness, I think.
Tyrion also escaped right after killing his father, Jon confessed. If Tyrion was caught by the Lannister forces, he would be undoubtedly executed but in the show, by the time 8×06 rolls around, nobody is demanding Tyrion’s head or threatening war if Tyrion isn’t punished for Tywin as what was happening with Jon. There were no Lannister supporters left.
In the show, Bran names Tyrion as his hand as “punishment”. That is strange — but maybe it works somehow in books.
I think the exclusion of magic kind of changed these situations a lot. The barebones can be the same, in my opinion, while the details can have differences.
As you said, the quotes I highlighted had Martin pointing out the differences. I didn’t only include the part where it said, “Even if the adaptation is as faithful to the literary original as it was in Game of Thrones.” I quoted his entire answer. As well as other answers in which he pointed out the butterfly effect and the impacts those make.
I also addressed how Martin has been saying there will be two different versions of his story in multiple interviews and included quotes of him saying these things as well.
My disagreement was over your statement, “After the ending he didn’t once repeat anything close to that,” (re: the endings being similar, as Martin said in his 2019 60 Minutes interview). I think Martin calling GoT a faithful adaptation is kind of close to that.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
Forgive me; of course, you know best, Mage.
LOL!!
That was a great clip.
Oh yes, this one such reader would pay to have tasteful pin-ups of GRRM — as would Emilia Clarke, apparently 😉 Didn’t she have photos of GRRM pinned up all over her trailer in this video?? ;D (at 3:07)
I think GRRM would have his Mother of Dragons as an eager customer!
Adrianacandle,
Typo: missing word X_X
*Those adaptations have extremely little to do with their source material and go off in entirely different storylines.
Adrianacandle,
In the show, Bran names Tyrion as his hand as “punishment”. That is strange — but maybe it works somehow in books.
My reading of it was that statement was partly to mollify Grey Worm, but also in keeping with Martin’s own beliefs about the responsible exercise of political power: it is very hard (and often unrewarding) work.
When we meet Tyrion, he’s lolling around in bed with multiple women, almost laughing at Jaime’s concern about putting on a good show for their Stark hosts. During the show’s run, Tyrion talks of a debauched retirement of leisure, wine, and women, which would be fully available to him, as the youngest heir to a Great House of Westeros.
Instead, he will work, day after day after day, for decades, trying to solve all of the problems of re-building six kingdoms — and practicing foreign diplomacy with a Northern Queen who both knows him very well, and does not like him very much. He will work constantly, under the relentless eye of the most watchful boss who has ever existed, and who knows exactly what results Tyrion must deliver. He will work at this hard job of ruling, possibly for all of the rest of his days, knowing his previous failure destroyed the lives of a million innocent persons. And what reward will he get? As Jaime sneered to a prior Hand, “the King sh*ts, and the Hand wipes.”
A lifetime of actual work in government could be a burdensome punishment indeed!
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
That thought crossed my mind too…
And I think that idea is touched upon as early as ACOK when after the Battle of Blackwater, in which it was Tyrion’s efforts and Tyrion’s ideas that really helped King’s Landing hold their own against Stannis (and Tyrion’s face is mutilated in the process), it’s Tywin who gets the credit when he rides in and saves the day:
In the books — as you, Efi, and ash have all noted — Tyrion is growing quite dark and he seems to have a building resentment of the people of Westeros who just look down and spit on him. He does want revenge. By book 5, Tyrion seems to give into the stigma he is dealing with and lets himself go to the darkness, giving into his worst instincts.
In addition to what you’ve said, Tyrion having to live with what he’s done, perhaps the idea is that he’s shackled by the current king into serving the people of Westeros who despise him and he will never be recognized or rewarded for his efforts. He’ll have to live with their scorn, their misery, and their hatred while serving a realm he hates in a job he now hates.
Also, in 8×06, Sam makes that comment about how Tyrion isn’t mentioned in the record of events.
I think I’d have to see how it works in the books if Tyrion is made Hand? It’s possible it could work, depending on how it’s done.
I think it’s so hard to say right now since we don’t have anything to compare to beyond ADWD :/
Adrianacandle,
“I think Martin calling GoT a faithful adaptation is kind of close to that.”
As I said, if you think that the “faithful adaptation” part annuls all the rest of his statement, it’s ok.
I didn’t say that. I haven’t denied there will be differences and I haven’t said that GRRM himself saying this is a faithful adaptation annuls the rest of his statement.
What I was trying to express is that I feel what GRRM is saying in these quotes aren’t mutually exclusive to one another (feeling it’s a faithful adaptation while talking about how there will be differences).
I said stuff like:
a) “Maybe GRRM thinks that, relatively speaking and considering all the adaptations, GoT is a faithful adaptation of ASOIAF. I think he’s allowed to have his opinion too on the adaptation of his own work.”
b) “I haven’t said the details in between these broad strokes would be the same or that the books need to do everything the show did. I think those things will be different but the bare bones will be similar.”
c) “I don’t see where Martin is being dishonest. He can have his opinion, even if some disagree, especially when it’s regarding his own work and he himself knows the ending. Martin has been honest about the differences and what he thinks D&D should have done (ie. Stoneheart).”
d) “GRRM isn’t saying the adaptation is the same as the source material. He’s acknowledging the differences — as he acknowledges exist in every adaptation. That doesn’t mean it’s not a faithful adaptation. There are differences between Gone With the Wind and its book counterpart but I feel the film is still pretty faithful.”
e) “As for ASOIAF and Gone With the Wind, we don’t know what the differences will be between the books and the show. Only those who know Martin’s plans do. The only thing D&D confirmed about Martin’s ending is that Bran is the final king.”
We have no earthly idea what those conversations between GRRM and D&D talked about beyond what D&D and others associated with the show have revealed coming from GRRM. We don’t have his final books to compare against. I’ve also said all of this is hard to know because we don’t have access to that information yet.
It is hard to judge right now. I just don’t think GRRM is being dishonest or his statements are mutually exclusive. Relatively speaking, especially given his comparisons to the adaptations of The Sookie Stackhouse novels and The Walking Dead, he may feel GoT is a faithful adaptation in comparison.
I don’t know. I’m not in his brain. He’s the best one who can speak to what he thinks.
kevin1989,
That’s very bitter for Daenerys. And if that is so, I hope that Martin is able to put it in words and make it poetic.
AA is truly puzzling to me. Not much of the information is consistent. If Jon is AA and Daenerys is Nissanissa he’d have to kill her before the burning of KL, if we suppose that the Dead are defeated before that. But then how will she get to KL?
Frankly the prophecies are the worst part in ASoIaF.
As for the fandoms, they have their shipping goggles on. Don’t mind them. Most of them are very young people, like 15-25 y.-o. It seems to me that you have examined the Jonsa and Jonerys fandom too well; what I know of them is no match to what you know I’m afraid.
The way I see the story evolving, I don’t want Sansa with anybody, not even with Jon (I don’t like what I’m seeing, which I am probably the only one to see, at least in here). I don’t think that my wish shall be granted. M. will probably couple her with someone by the end of ADOS (if it ever comes out). She’ll have to continue the line.
But dismissing the possibility as a no-no is too absolute for my taste too. At this point I wouldn’t dismiss any possibility, not even Jon’s exile.
ash,
Take care Ash, and just try to keep as much to the measurements of your country, that way you already minimize the risk in your family.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
I think Tyrion is going to survive, if we’re going by the main characters which GRRM states are close to his ending, that’s: Jon, Daenerys, Arya, Bran and Tyrion. He calls those characters his main 5.
Sansa, Cersei, Jaime etc are secondary characters.
So that means that those endings will be pretty close to the ending of the show, maybe details are different, but we can predict Jon will end up at the wall and that he kills Dany, Dany gets killed, Arya sails away, Bran will be king and Tyrion hand of the king. How those details will be filled in can be completely different. But those are the things that will happen in the books. But I think how they are filled in will be much different.
Adrianacandle,
I agree with you here.
Adrianacandle,
I think it are the maids. The maids in GRRM story likes to gossip. And some are in service of Littlefinger, Varys, the Queen and others.
I don’t see a girl of the age of Sansa going to talk about her sex life, (or the absent of it). That’s even against who Sansa is. Sansa keep things like that close to her self. I don’t believe it’s in Sansa’s character to state that in the open. It were the maids/spies/birds.
Adrianacandle,
I think Martin states (my interpretation), that the general ending is the same, but that how it’s filled in can differ. I think at least his main 5 will be roughly the same.
Why would Martin not be honest?
He may hold some information to himself, something he always does, he is always talking in mystery. But I don’t think for a second that Martin will lie about a statement he makes. That would be very bad for his own carreer, look at writers of shows and book who states: my book won’t go that way, and in the end it goes that way. Or visa versa. Their legacy is gone after that. He maybe is ambiguous about his statements but in my opinion they are honest.
Ten Bears,
No I don’t think he will XD I think Arya still will sail west, about Sansa I’m not that sure. She is a secondary character in the books and Martin only confirmed the show was faithful to the main characters and secondary could differ. But I think Sansa will end up being queen in the books also.
Brilliant. Sorry TB but this comment deserve the B word.
Efi,
True, very bitter and depressing (sorry Dany fans, I really think Dany’s fate in the books will be even worse).
True AA/NN is very puzzling part of the books, but it’s the biggest puzzle of the books, I did a while back a document of all the mysteries, and this mystery is the biggest of them all. I only think Robert’s rebellion was bigger in content. But every book many pages had a AA/NN backstory and information, every book gives a new information about the puzzle.
I personally don’t think the dead are defeated before the burning of Kings Landing. I think Dany even comes later into play when the battle of the WWs is already set. The ending of winds is the logical place for the breaking of the wall, and dany will not be in westeros back then. Also look at storywise what is set up. Young Griff defeat of Cersei is about to start (my guess is that he will get the Tyrells to his side), I don’t think that storywise that should be in dreams, Dany will sail west at the end of winds is my estimate, then we have Euron. There’s a reason why the whole taking control of a dragon storyline is there since feast. And it was in dance, and now in winds. Martin has a plan for that. I think storywise it’s safe to assume that Euron will indeed get hold of a dragon. Isn’t it more logical that Euron is part of the whole massacre of KL? Why would this whole: I want a dragon storyline be else about if that didn’t contribute to something. I also don’t think the whole YG being King will be shelved for half a book in dreams. Look at it this way, dany arrives in westeros, she has something do deal with YG either getting her claim, or making allies, Euron has taken hold of a dragon, will he wait a whole book till dany deals with the death? Maybe show euron but book Euron? No he will act and use the dragon for his own purposes. My guess is that dream will start of with the whole burning of KL and ending the dance of dragon version 2.
I have my own idea how that will end but I think I wait till winds is over to be sure to share that, because I’m probably wrong about that. Only thing that I think is that Dany gets the blame for Euron’s deed of burning KL.
I think after that she goes north, saving the day letting Jon etc get to escape, I think in the books Winterfell maybe will fall. the WW will win. Then the way south the story of Jon/Dany as AA/NN will unfold. They probably will reach graywater watch (howland reed), get information about the past. And my guess is that Azor Ahai will play out at the island of faces. I think Dany will die there.
I think after that we get the endings of the character, who will be king etc.
As for me I like the prophecies very much in ASoIaF. Why? Because they are not like in other stories, they are not straightforward, there’s a catch with it, a twist we didn’t saw coming (or just a few saw coming). It’s also the foundation of the story. Look at what Cersei drives, the prophecy. And what makes the prophecy come true? That Cersei knows it.
And I agree we should not dismiss any possibilities, to a certain degree. We don’t know the ending of the books. We know there are differences, we know there are similarities. But what we don’t know yet. But until the books gets out and gives us the answer, we need to look at what we know. What we know are statements of GRRM, and people who worked with GRRM, no matter what we may think, hope, predict, in the end D&D/Bryan Cogman/Alan Taylor and others who worked the show have information that we don’t have as a reader. They like us have the books but they also have GRRM words. Do we know what they really talked about? No. But still they know more. Their statements mean something until the books or GRRM own words disprove it. That gives us a basic framework to work with, and even in that framework there are endless possibilities, maybe not the one we had in our heads and believe will happen, but still besides that, a lot of possibilities are there.
For instance: Arya sail away. Could even be filled in differently. Maybe she goes west, maybe east, maybe south. Maybe it’s a choice like the show, maybe she get’s orders from Bran because his eyes are only in westeros, maybe the faceless man are after her. Maybe rumors of a new treat. Maybe she go with Genry, maybe not. Maybe she will kill Cersei, Maybe not. this already give for arya, 3*4*2*2=48 possibilities for Arya. And that’s not even everything that can be filled in for her character. Now take in every character and plotpoint and the amount of possibilities is endless.
And maybe in the end, we found out we all live inside a giant named Macumber (why do I always think about Cucumber with this name, like a giant cucumber where people live in)
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
”He [GRRM] told them how it ends, and he gave them three plot points they had to show along the way: the burning death of Shireen Baratheon, the meaning (history, and fate) of Hodor, and that Dany was really the big villain. Each of those could have different set-ups in the books than we saw, but they will all happen.”
I’m not disputing any of this. I just wanted to:
(1) Revive my tinfoil speculation that the Bran brain-frying of Wyllis-Hodor was itself a set-up for something else Big G has in store; and
(2) Reiterate that the Jack Bender-directed episode “The Door” was f*cking br*ll***t.
That last sequence of back-and-forth between past and present with Meera and then Wyllis urging “Hold the Door!” was unforgettable. (Who wasn’t sobbing or speechless when the last scene of that episode faded to black?)
kevin1989,
”…And maybe in the end, we found out we all live inside a giant named Macumber (why do I always think about Cucumber with this name, like a giant cucumber where people live in).”
Why a cucumber? It must be a subliminal suggestion from this photograph…
https://i.imgur.com/kLExldQ_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
#Mophie
Ten Bears:
That last sequence of back-and-forth between past and present with Meera and then Wyllis urging “Hold the Door!” was unforgettable. (Who wasn’t sobbing or speechless when the last scene of that episode faded to black?)
Working for the Starks is the worst job in Westeros. Having bosses who are rigid, autocratic, humorless, and utterly stupid makes for drudgery followed by disaster. Of all the innocent characters who got totally screwed in the story, Wyllis was the saddest. He faithfully served the “honorable” Starks his entire wretched life, and got nothing for it but grief. (And the obligatory violent death.)
And I agree with you on the sublime excellence of “The Door”.
We’d be in quite a pickle if that happened!!!
(I’ll see myself out…)
kevin1989,
And everybody
Martin has every right to keep his secrets and he is not obliged to confirm or refute any fan theory; he is also not obliged to reveal any details. I did not say that he lies -even though I’ve thought about it in the past for specific things.
But as regards the book, the show ending does not in any way bind him to confirm or refute that it is or isn’t the same. The books will show.
Therefore his statements since the show ended are always very “rounded” -I wouldn’t say diplomatic- because he makes sure to include both options:
yes, the ending is the same, but there’s differences, or, if you like
there’s differences, but it’s a faithful adaptation.
The difference -for me- is that no statement confirms that it’s 100% the same ending, after the show ended.
You can take old statements, of Martin, D&D, Taylor, and whoever else you want. It doesn’t change the fact that they are all old statements, sometimes already of many years ago, based on prior information, prior decisions, and they concern the show.
And the show -for me- is no Gospel; I cannot take declarations about the show as proving what Martin will do with his books; I cannot take the show ending as proving the book ending.
While most of you recognize that yeah, there will be differences, you take the ending as being the same and try to explain the “butterfly effect” as concerning anything else apart from the ending. You fall back on years-old statements about the show to support the idea that the show ending is the book ending. If you are satisfied with this explanation, then it is fine.
But you have to allow me to have my own opinions. After all, what does it matter to you if I think that the book characters will have a different ending than what we saw on screen?
Why is it so important to you that you have to convince me that Tyrion’s punishment shall be community service, or Jon loves Dany and ends up exiled, or Sansa ends up alone, or Arya leaves on an incomprehensible journey west at the tender age of twelve?
Gimme a break, this is ridiculous.
Ten Bears,
hahaha XD
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
You’re right about that Tensor.
https://media.giphy.com/media/ac7MA7r5IMYda/giphy.gif
XD hahaha
Ten Bears, historic Sybilla chose her husband to rule with her when she became queen e.g. Guy. Historic Balion wasn’t a bastard and was born in Outremer and he never married Sybilla.
That said I have enjoyed some inaccurate ‘historical’ films. E.g. the Charles Laughton Henry VIII film and ‘Cissi’ with Romy Scheider and I’m sure there are others I can’t recall. As long as folk know they are entertainment and not strictly factual.
My theories about ASOIAF have nearly always been wrong. I had wondered at one time if Sansa might end up with Jaime if she was going to take what Cersei held dear though that would seem somewhat gross given the age difference between the characters. I may refrain from speculating what will bring the book versions of the characters to the endgame. Sometimes over analysing books can be akin to Wordsworth speaking about “We murder to dissect”. Please note I’m not saying other people shouldn’t speculate – just that I may personally abstain from doing so.
Agree and he never will, he never admit a theory even when somebody has it right. He always will say a comment like just read my next book and you maybe find out. And same with giving details. But he did gave some statements that you can’t refute to make a theory work. And as you state here, you have thought it in the past that Martin had lied for specific things.
(This is also something I notice in Jonsa’s fanboards if somebody on the show or Martin states something that show their Jonsa theory could be right, it’s taken as a fact and prove, but when it goes against it like Jon loves Dany statement from Alan taylor, Alan Taylor lies. I’m talking about Jonsa’s in general, you state you’re not a Jonsa so it’s not directed to you.)
That’s true and he would never confirm his changes in the open, why would he, he wants people to read his books. But he also in the same blog-post stated what we can expec to be different. The secondary characters endings. And the road to the ending for the main characters. We can also expect that details may differ, look at my Arya example.
But as for this once I again I refer back to the Jonsa-theory. As you state what they also do is saying that the ending will be much different. In their idea Jon is only with Dany to manipulate her and steal a dragon for his lover Sansa so he can defeat Dany and take the seven kingdoms for her. (which I even have problems with see below).
But here comes the thing that they also state is with all the differences, one thing for them is a true given and won’t change in the books. Dark Dany who burn down Kinglanding, it’s the only detail of season 8 that for them will 100% happen. But everything else will be much more different. They nitpick the shows events that only support their theory, the rest will be different.
Why I have problems with Jon doing that is that he becomes a villain.
He will take Westeros into another war that will lead to thousands of death only so he can please his lover Sansa.
He will steal a dragon which make him a thief.
The Jonsa theory ending makes Jon a villain.
I agree that no statement confirms the book ending how it will be 100%.
As for the statements they are maybe old when we go by daily news. But they were said when Martin already finished Dance of Dragon (and his chapter that were pushed to winds). So it’s said after all we have to read at home and make our theories about.
So back then when Martin finished Dance he told Alan Taylor that the story is about the love of Dany and Jon. We all know that statement of Taylor (if Taylor lied Martin would have called him out, he always called out people who state something he said which he didn’t say, like he did with the fake GRRM twitter accounts and Facebook accounts, he was not very nice about people saying things that he didn’t say, if Taylor lied he would have called Taylor out and let Taylor correct his statement).
That means that the books that are out Martin prepares us for the love of Jon and Dany. Maybe your right and he changed his decision to take the books to. But then we couldn’t make theories about it, because that would only show in winds and dream because no hints were giving in the first five books about it (George talked with Taylor when Dance was released).
So you can’t refute Alan Taylor’s comment to make a theory work when that theory is about the first 5 books.
And that statement was not about the show. It was what Martin told to Taylor about the course the books would take and what his story was about. And his story is the books not the show. If martin makes a statement about the story or a character it’s about the books, unless he states that is is about the show, but he only talks about the show characters in contrast to his own version of the character.
Same with me, the show ending is no prove how martin will end his books. But the statements of GRRM, D&D, Bryan Cogman, Taylor and others who were in direct contact and know more about the upcoming books than we do, gives us a frame to where the story will head and where differences can lie. You can’t dismiss those statements to make a theory not to be debunked. Those statements goes 180 degrees against the Jonsa-theory, so those statements can’t be right, unfortunate they are the closest to what the next two books are than our theories (even some of my theories were debunked by those statements and I don’t care, they were just theories).
As for the old statements, I didn’t fall back on old statements. Those statements were after 7×06 aired. Where the ending was already written by D&D. And as I state above, it was after Dance was done, so that means those statements were about the five released books where we make our theories about, if Martin changed his mind from that statement, it could not be theorized from hints from the first five books.
As for opinion, I don’t attack your opinion, you can have your opinions. I never attacked any opinion of you here. I only criticize a theory you brought up and their arguments and evidence they use. I never state Jon and Sansa won’t be a couple I even state that it maybe possible (even when I think it’s unlikely) but that the evidence of the Jonsa theory is lacking and the statements we got (which is right now the evidence) doesn’t support it. So I’m all up for whatever course martin goes with his story. But the moment we are debating about a theory for me I will debate the arguments and evidence. And if I’m not agreeing with somebody there I would say it.
And at the end of the day, I respect everyone’s opinion as I hope others would respect mine.
I never state that Tyrion’s ending is a community service.
I don’t try to convince you to believe Jon loves Dany and end up in exile, the only thing that I did was show the evidence that we got to support that (the official statements), for me when we dismiss official statements, it’s a dangerous road, no matter if done for something important like with politics or with a tv show. I can’t question every single statement that doesn’t interline with my own ideas. Doesn’t mean I think that everyone should do that.
Who says that Arya will be twelve once the books end? We haven’t read the books yet and we don’t know the time skips that will happen in the next two books. Maybe the next two books will have a time period of 5 years.
And I don’t mind I won’t react to your bait of calling my arguments ridiculous.
Dame of Mercia,
Jaime and Sansa, that’s a new one 😀
Sansa could become Jaime’s right hand 😉
This time I show myself out.
Efi,
Why is it so important to you that you have to convince me that Tyrion’s punishment shall be community service, or Jon loves Dany and ends up exiled, or Sansa ends up alone, or Arya leaves on an incomprehensible journey west at the tender age of twelve?
It’s not important to me, and I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything. I merely noted you seem to be stringing together tenuous bits of quotes and wishful thinking to convince yourself the books will have a much different ending than the show had. (Do you really believe D&D would write a completely different ending for Martin’s favorite character?!?) Should Martin ever deliver his ending, the major characters’ arcs and outcomes will be the same as what we saw; he’s been very clear on that.
What I do suggest is you not spend years awaiting an ending which, if it comes, will be pretty much the one you already didn’t like. Thanks to the spectacular success of Game of Thrones, there are plenty of other long, involved stories to watch. There are many long, involved stories to read. Why spend any more of your time fixating on a story where the ending wasn’t exactly what you’d wanted?
Just a thought.
I think maybe folks are feeling fraught with the isolation and worry. I ll bring a little levity – I was not sure whether to post this but there is nothing sexy about my antique frame so here goes. I decided to hand sew some underwear as I wanted a quick project. Somehow I’d attached one of the side seams with one side upside down so when it came to apply the elastic I found I’d made a mobius strip. Fortunately it’s not rocket science to unpick a seam but for a while it really was a case of “knickers in a twist”. I wonder if bad sewing had anything to do with the origin of that British expression. Wolverine said “panties in a bunch” when I watched an Xmen film on TV a while ago so I guess that is the American version. Not to do with WoW I know but I thought I’d try to lighten the tone.
😂
Thanks for that story!
It is a huge pain to have to take out seams — that and cutting are probably the two worst parts of sewing x_x
How did your knickers turn out? 🙂
I like this idea of sharing stories of projects we may be working on! I will link to images of some of my laser work tomorrow for anyone who wants to see 🙂 I drew a weirwood tree and laser-etched it into some 3 mm cherry, meant as a keychain or ornament, and am waiting on the 1 mm red swarovski crystals to represent the leaves (but I’m afraid they’ll look like apples so if anybody has any alternative suggestions, I’d love to hear)!
Adrianacandle,
”I like this idea of sharing stories of projects we may be working on! I will link to images of some of my laser work tomorrow for anyone who wants to see 🙂“
(*Raises hand*)
Ooh! Ooh! Me! Me! I wanna see!
Awesome!! I will photograph them tonight, post tomorrow! 😀
Adrianacandle,
Well they are wearable. Nobody would mistake them for designer wear. It might be interesting to see your projects, Adriana.
I looked for the origin of ‘knickers in a twist’ online. Knickerbocker is another name for kenn-breeches and I believe in the USA ‘knickers’ still are knee-breeches. I didn’t realise that Washington Irving had written about a character surnamed Knickerbocker and that helped popularise the name. In England it has stuck with underwear for some reason though I do hear ‘panties’ – short for pantalettes I suppose. I’m on the laptop now but my screen has about 4 to 5 inches greyed out at the side (from when I dropped the laptop – loosening a connecting wire or two I suspect) so there may still be typos in any comments I make.
Oh, I succeeded in knitting a Moebius-twist in an sweater many years ago. That was veryvery annoying, because it was with difficult pattern :o(
I would like to see Your projects, too – but is it possible, to post photographs in here?
kevin1989,
“And I don’t mind I won’t react to your bait of calling my arguments ridiculous.”
I didn’t call your arguments ridiculous. In fact I agree with lots of things that you’ve said.
I called what is happening to me ridiculous.
Comment #599.
Who wants to be #600?
kevin1989,
“Why I have problems with Jon doing that is that he becomes a villain.
He will take Westeros into another war that will lead to thousands of death only so he can please his lover Sansa.
He will steal a dragon which make him a thief.
The Jonsa theory ending makes Jon a villain.”
I strongly disagree with this view for many reasons.
How is it that Jon by stealing a dragon becomes “a villain”? Why is it ok to bring the Free Folk to Westeros, meaning to explain his oath more loosely than others did for saving them from the Others, and to steal the dragon to save Westeros is “becoming a villain”? (or a thief?)
Why is that Jon becomes “a villain” by killing her if we assume that he does it for Sansa, but it’s ok that he kills her while loving Daenerys, re-enacting book and screen the oldest literary trope in the world for which the audience screams “sexism”?
And why is it a given that there is another war leading there? I don’t see any evidence about another war. Daenerys’ killing is supposed to stop a war and prevent her from attacking anywhere else in Westeros just because she can.
Come to mention it, isn’t that what we saw on screen? Didn’t Jon kill her for WF, Sansa, Arya and Bran altogether?
Didn’t Jon actually become “a villain” by following his girlfriend South and allowing for the massacre to happen, in which he also took part?
Do you think that it’s ok to participate in mass murder because he loves her and thus kill her by exhibiting what Daenerys’ fans call “the human heart in conflict with itself”?
If it is so, why wouldn’t it work if he was in love with someone else (e.g. Val, or Jeyne, or even Sansa for that matter)? Do you prejudice that Jon would be ok with killing his aunt if he were in love with someone else? Wouldn’t there be a “conflict” there too? Or would Jon be ok with murdering his aunt no matter who he was in love with?
[yeah, she’s my aunt; I love another, so it’s ok to kill my aunt; it’s ok to kill my queen]
Much of that doesn’t make sense.
——
In my opinion the recent view that the affair portrays the “human heart in conflict with itself” only if Jon loves Daenerys is deeply problematic in-universe and narratively-wise for the book.
It was also problematic on screen, because it was implied that Jon killing Daenerys was his “duty”.
In my opinion a murder is never “duty”. It cannot be “I love her, but I have to kill her”, because morally it’s gross. It’s worse than all the other options. (loving someone else or not being in love at all)
I’m calling this theory out for its double standards (which I did from the moment the finale aired; this is not new).
It is not reasonable to think that it is ok to participate in mass murder but to trick Daenerys into cooperating for battling the fight with the Others is making him a villain.
It follows that those who have this opinion have a problem with Jon messing with their favorite character, not with what Jon does or what he does not.
You can’t say that Jon participating in mass murder doesn’t make him a villain. He is a villain no matter which way you look at it. He will do that in the books too. Daenerys will destroy KL and no one will stop her in advance, not even Jon. And if he is with Daenerys, Jon is also a VILLAIN.
I suggest everybody to get used to that idea. Jon is not a good boy.
It remains to see what his reasons for killing Daenerys will be. As per the show, it was for WF, Sansa, Arya and Bran. We’ll see if that checks out in the books too.
Ten Bears,
Mine was no 600! 😃
Dame of Mercia,
Well everyone needs to have underwear so it’s great that you make them.
With maybe a direwolf or dragonprint on it to make it a bit sexier?
Adrianacandle,
Does watching tv-shows and movies count as project?
I really need to try to read something more.
Oh wait I maybe have some “projects” I’m very much into baking lately. I’ve baked a dutch apple pie, not to get all nationality here, but dutch apple pies are just amazing and the best apple pies in the world. 😀
I also made a apple cake, white chocolate lime cheesecake, a “stroopwafel”-cake (look up what stroopwafels are they are amazing). I like baking and eating it.
I know I’ve challenged you a lot, Efi, on things you’ve said in your posts, especially in this thread. I’m really sorry if I am making you feel frustrated (but I don’t want to speak for you so if I’m wrong, please tell me), I know that’s not a fun feeling.
It’s really not about arguing for the sake of arguing with you or preventing you from having an opinion — it’s about post content and what I have some issues with. If a poster named Bob Lawblaw came on here and posted the same arguments, I’d give the same replies. I think that’s what we open ourselves up to when we offer our views in a public space.
As long as criticisms aren’t becoming personal about the poster and remain about statements being made, I think it’s okay.
I’ve disagreed with you and what you thought was foreshadowing/foreshadowing what. You’ve disagreed with me and what I thought was foreshadowing/foreshadowing what. That’s totally what debate is about.
I’m not asking you to agree with me. I’m wanting to express my views in a public space other people read, like I think you want to do too.
I’d like to respond to a few points:
Well, the statements being referenced are about Martin’s plans for the books, plans that he has for concluding his own story and plans that have been shared with these people to inform what they do with the show.
I don’t think anyone is saying that the show is the gospel. What I’m trying to do is figure out how the books progress with consideration to: a) what Martin has said vis a vis what he’s told D&D and what he’s said about GoT and its ending, b) what D&D and others have shared of Martin’s future plans for the books, and c) D&D saying that the show was going to reach the same destination that Martin has planned for the books.
Because D&D have interviewed that they were planning to end the show the same way as the books. Martin has interviewed he expects the series to end the same as the books based on conversations they’ve had. Both have said there will be differences in details and surprises that are different from the show with Martin specifically making these statements about secondary characters and how that can cause a butterfly effect.
These may be statements from years ago but these statements were made while D&D were planning how to end the show and they met with Martin to learn his plans for the books.
I don’t think you’re being told not to have your own opinion because others disagree and/or point out what they find disputable.
For me, this isn’t about you or changing your mind, it’s about what you’ve said in your posts that I’d like to respond to, some of which I don’t find entirely reflective of the source statement. It’s an open public forum in which we have a back and forth.
About this particular subject, I think it’s about trying to figure how the books will progress, how that fits in with what D&D have said comes from Martin, how they’ve planned to end the series the same as the books, how Martin had expected the basic beats of the ending to be the same, and how this can work.
If the idea is that the show ends differently from the books entirely, maybe Dany doesn’t go dark, maybe Jon doesn’t kill her, maybe Bran doesn’t end up king, maybe the remaining Starks die in the war against the Others or something.
You don’t have to agree. This is a discussion in which people are voicing their opinions in response to yours based on their own thoughts and references they’ve found.
Sorry my bad Efi, I felled like it was referring to my arguments about the Arya ending. I think like Dame of Mercia stated we are all a bit fraught with isolation.
Hope everything is all right there, and you can still have some nice projects to do to keep sane. Or are you still at work? Some jobs still need to be done.
Ten Bears,
Efi is the winner I think 😀
Efi,
” You can’t say that Jon participating in mass murder doesn’t make him a villain. He is a villain no matter which way you look at it. He will do that in the books too. Daenerys will destroy KL and no one will stop her in advance, not even Jon. And if he is with Daenerys, Jon is also a VILLAIN.
I suggest everybody to get used to that idea. Jon is not a good boy.”
Yes. On the show at least, Jon was the Susan Collins of moderation: He grimaced; he arched his eyebrows; he showed “concern”… Yet when it mattered the most he did nothing.
“She is my Queen.” So the f*ck what, Milquetoast Boy. She’s flame-broiled an entire city full of civilians!
#NeuteredWhiteWolf
Yes. Yes it was. 🏆✅
Efi,
Jon isn’t explaining his oath more loosely — that is the oath, ‘to defend the realms of men’ not ‘defend Westeros’. The Night’s Watch was instituted to defend all of humanity, not just one part of humanity, against the Others. Jon is also doing this to save not just his family, but an entire people.
It’s way more than that. Kevin also mentions this theory having Jon callously using Dany with sex, manipulating her feelings so she helps him defend Westeros, and killing her just for threatening Sansa, waging war on a city for Sansa’s sake (if I’m understanding your interpretation right). This makes Jon just like every other crappy person in the series: using somebody and waging war just to protect his family.
Another problem I have with this interpretation is that Jon has to influence Dany to do the right thing with sex. The concept of that is very, very problematic — a man has to use sex to influence a woman to do the right thing. It makes both Jon and Dany’s characters look super crappy.
It’s also not the oldest literary trope in the books. It’s been done before but it’s hardly an easy trope.
And I don’t think using Dany’s feelings is a smart thing for Jon to do, especially as a first resort — it has Jon depending on Dany’s feelings for him to keep Dany in line, which — if Dany is as unstable or monstrous as this interpretation is making her out to be — might be subject to change. What happens if Dany changes her mind about him? Then there’s nothing in this bargain for her.
It also has Jon risking another war with a woman who has dragons and armies when, in the case Jon feels nothing for Dany, there is the option of compromise which gives both parties what they want (perhaps, in this case, defense against the Others and the support of the North) and comes with a cost to both parties if they break their deal, harming both sides (war that damages both sides, loss of support), giving Dany an incentive to keep her end of the deal.
In the show, the narrative had Jon’s faith in Dany ending up being misplaced when she goes berserk in an unplanned decision (per D&D) to demolish the city. He wanted to help her take the throne because he thought she’d be a good queen, that she would be committed to protecting the people.
Based off of the ASOS Sansa quote you based an interpretation on above, I think your interpretation included Jon killing Dany, waging war on the city as a result?
That wasn’t the only reason. Jon’s family was the factor that pushed him into that decision but it certainly wasn’t the only factor. He was arguing on behalf of the people in his final conversation with Dany. He wasn’t saying, “Please, just spare my family at least.” Kit Harington had said it was also about the greater good like it was with Ygritte and in the DVD special, said there were a number of reasons for this decision.
Jon’s love for Dany is what created that conflict for him and had him seriously resisting the prospect of assassinating her even after she killed an entire city. Because of this, I think he needed that ultimate to push him into something he absolutely didn’t want to do — but it wasn’t only about saving his family. He still wanted to give Dany that one last chance.
Jon didn’t participate in the massacre, he ordered his men to stop. The show had Jon’s faith in Dany ultimately misplaced but that faith wasn’t without basis: she did help Jon defend the realm from the Others, she did follow through there when most people either dismissed the severity of the threat or didn’t believe him at all, she opted not to attack the Red Keep when reminded of the civilians. She swore to defeat the Night King alongside him and came North to help defend it and the rest of the kingdom.
Jon didn’t help take the throne with the intention to kill a ton of people because he’s afraid for Dany’s life, as your interpretation is proposing with Sansa.
However, if this scenario is proposing that Jon and Dany are simply enemies like Jon and Cersei are simply enemies and Jon believes Sansa would be the best for the realm without the sexual manipulation stuff, okay! I’d call that on the up-and-up. But then this scenario lacks the element of inner conflict, which is a key component I think — like a Jon vs. Cersei conflict would.
Daenerys’s fans aren’t the ones calling this the “human heart in conflict with itself.” From what I’ve seen, Dany fans hate this dark turn and ending.
Well, not really much of one if Jon simply views Dany as a monster. There’s no real emotional conflict since Jon is already pretty willing to risk his own life and reputation to save others. He was willing to kill a man he liked, Mance, to defend Westeros and save his family if the need called for it — becoming a turncloak and breaking sacred guest right as a result.
I think these internal struggles need to become even harder as the series goes on, to make those difficult choices even crueler.
What do you mean here?
It’s not really a recent view. The woman Jon loves ending up becoming a second threat to the realm, the realm Jon’s arc had him protecting, is what creates that conflict becaue he is caught between two horrible, horrible choices.
In Jon’s conversation with Tyrion, it’s acknowledged Jon loves her (that’s the reason why Jon doesn’t want to kill her) but Jon is the shield that guards the realms of men, that he has always tried to protect people but now Dany has become the greatest threat to the people. That’s one part of the conflict that arises from Jon. Then a second part arises because Dany, the woman Jon loves, also becomes a threat to the family he loves.
Since the beginning of the series, Jon has been tasked with a duty to defend the realms. In this instance, killing Dany saves the realms. It’s not supposed to be morally easy, it’s supposed to be agonizing on a very personal level — which is much what ASOIAF is about, in my opinion.
It is not reasonable to think that it is ok to participate in mass murder but to trick Daenerys into cooperating for battling the fight with the Others is making him a villain.
Jon didn’t participate in mass murder. Jon’s faith in Dany was misplaced.
That’s a very different scenario from Jon sexually manipulating Dany, faking his feelings for her, and using her to defeat the Others, disposing of her when he’s all done. That’s not an inner struggle, that’s Jon being a complete jerk, poking the bear that is Daenerys Targaryen with his sexual manipulation and encouraging his feelings of love for him while he callously uses her — especially when there are other options.
If Dany’s helping him to defeat the Others, why would Jon hate Dany on sight? Plus, Jon has extended peace to enemies before — the Weeper, he forced himself to sign that paper shield with the Lannisters — and when he didn’t (vis a vis Ramsay), it resulted in disaster.
Jon falling for Dany doesn’t make him and Dany the same person, who share one mind. It doesn’t have Jon agreeing with everything Dany does. Jon supported Stannis because Stannis fought for the realm — but Jon certainly didn’t agree with Stannis’s methods of resorting to human sacrifice. Jon liked Mance because he fought for his people but he certainly wasn’t in favour of Mance’s attack on the Wall. Jon fell for Ygritte and Ygritte was no angel — but she also wasn’t a monster either. Ygritte, too, was fighting for things she believed in.
Dany’s not a monster yet in the books and in my view, I don’t think she will be a full-on villain. Dany is trying to fight for her ideals too. Jon appreciated certain aspects in all of these people and that’s what garnered his appreciation (Mance)/ respect (Stannis)/ or love (Ygritte) for them.
On a relative scale in ASOIAF, Jon seems like a pretty good guy so far. He makes some pretty harsh decisions but he’s not doing those with his own self interest in mind, he’s trying to save or help other people.
kevin1989,
”Oh wait I maybe have some “projects” I’m very much into baking lately. I’ve baked a dutch apple pie, not to get all nationality here, but dutch apple pies are just amazing and the best apple pies in the world. 😀
I also made a apple cake, white chocolate lime cheesecake, a “stroopwafel”-cake (look up what stroopwafels are they are amazing). I like baking and eating it.”
———
I’ve resigned myself to the eventuality that I will gain 40 pounds during the next two months of sequestration.
🍪🎂🍔🍕🍰🍩🥯
Adrianacandle,
* Crap, forgot to quote a part of the post I was responding to T__T It should read like this and I added a piece to my answer:
Jon didn’t participate in mass murder. *Jon’s support of Dany does make him complicit but he didn’t participate in the massacre of the city, he tried ordering his men back. The show’s narrative had his faith in Dany being ultimately misplaced.
That’s a very different scenario from Jon sexually manipulating Dany, faking his feelings for her, and using her to defeat the Others[…]
That sounds amazing!!!! *____*
Ten Bears, kevin, (and who ever is interested!),
I will post my laser work tonight! I took pictures last night, and I have to do some colour correction and prime my rocket ship first…. 😉
(The priming is taking forever and isn’t looking so nice. I keep getting brush strokes and having to sand down, which then removes the coat. I asked for advice from an assistant at Lowe’s yesterday and he was very helpful: he told me to brush on the primer in one direction only, advised me on the proper brush to use with oil-based primer, and suggested I mask off the slots for the shelves to avoid primer falling in and clogging them.)
Oh yes! And when I post the weirwood tree design, I’d love suggestions for the red leaves if anyone has any? Ten Bears, Efi, Kevin, Dame of Mercia, ash, Pigeon, Tensor…? If you have any ideas, please let me know!!
I just saw this message! I’m sorry I forgot to include your username in my above post 🙁 I’d, of course, love your opinion too if you’d like to offer it!
That sweater sounds incredible! I’d love to see it if you wanted to share an image! 😀
For me, I plan on posting links to uploaded images in four separate posts — or maybe making a quick and dirty online WordPress.com gallery so I only have to link to one site.
I hope I can get that done by tonight! I should start looking for WordPress.com gallery templates ;;
I’m not sure what you mean. Painting red leaves? Type of paint? …
Because it’s a 2″ by 2″ etching with the weirwood tree as the raised section of wood while the background is in relief, I don’t think I can paint them. That was my first plan but because of the differences in levels between the foreground and background, I thought it might look a bit strange — or maybe I’m overthinking it. I’ll upload pictures tonight!
Alternatively, I was thinking that maybe 1 mm red swarovski crystals would work and I would use a micro hand drill to create teeny holes to set the gems in with epoxy… but I’m afraid they’d look like apples on an evil tree in that case ;D
Adrianacandle,
As cos alpha asked … “I would like to see Your projects, too – but is it possible, to post photographs in here?”
I too would like to know how to take photographs, and then post links to them here.
Is there a website that enables you to do that?
Adrianacandle,
I guess WordPress.com enables you to set up a website, and post pictures on it.
Hmmm. I’ve never used that. Looks complicated for a Luddite like me.
Yeah, you just sign up for an account, choose a blog template and I think there are some gallery options too — I’m not entirely sure since I’ve never used WordPress.com (creating a site on their server with limited options and templates). I’ve only ever used WordPress.org (installing WordPress onto your own server). In this case, your options are pretty much limitless — you can install third-party templates, plugins, make your own, etc.
WordPress is a “free and open-source content management system (CMS)” (description from Wikipedia). It enables users to create their own sites from a graphic user interface without requiring any coding knowledge. However, you can modify aspects in a template/plugin or to build your own, you definitely need coding knowledge (CSS, PHP) — but you don’t need to do that to build a nice site if you find/buy the templates and plugins you want that do everything you need them to do 🙂
I am not great at coding, especially PHP and PHP is a big part of what makes responsive web design work (is that right, Tron? I think you’ve got an extensive background in coding, right?). Some web developers despise WordPress but I really like it.
What it also allows users to do is maintain their own website if a web developer sets up a custom WordPress.org site for them.
So there’s a difference between WordPress.com and WordPress.org — both are from the same company but WordPress.com is hosted on WordPress.com and comes with very limited options, limiting the functionality and look of your website. WordPress.org is an installation of a CMS on your server, allowing you to create your own templates and plugins, as well as use third-party templates and plugins, and the degree a user can go to with this depends on their purposes, goals, and coding knowledge. It’s possible to use WordPress.Org and never touch a bit of code, especially if the template has a graphic user interface for all of its options.
… And there are other online hosted gallery options, I believe — like photobucket 🙂 I’ll have to look some up so I only have to create one post with one link!
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
Part 1*
[TB wrote]: “That last sequence of back-and-forth between past and present with Meera and then Wyllis urging “Hold the Door!” was unforgettable. (Who wasn’t sobbing or speechless when the last scene of that episode faded to black?)”
Tensor reply:
“….Of all the innocent characters who got totally screwed in the story, Wyllis was the saddest. He faithfully served the “honorable” Starks his entire wretched life, and got nothing for it but grief. (And the obligatory violent death.)
And I agree with you on the sublime excellence of “The Door”.
——————-
In addition to reading articles and comments on this site, my post-episode ritual included reading Laura Stone’s real-time reviews on Heydontjudgeme.com; waiting for Ozzy Man to produce and post his reviews on YouTube; and then watching Burlington Bar reaction videos.
I mention this because I’d get a kick out of the Burlington Bar reaction videos, e.g., how the fans would cheer wildly like their football team had just scored a touchdown to win the Super Bowl when Arya killed Walder; when the guy carrying the log in the S6e7 cold open turned around, revealing it was Sandor; or when Arya killed NK.
I contrast this with the fans’ stunned reaction to the conclusion of “The Door.”
* (I’m going to post a few links separately because the Lord of Light tends to intercept comments containing multiple links.)
Here’s the reaction to the return of the Hound in S6e7:
Part 2
…And here’s Arya vs. NK in S8e3:
Ten Bears,
What? Sorry. Link “not available”????
Lemme try again..
8×3 Arya vs. NK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5wm3fY5pCY&list=LLveXwY1RPrGJwMHjxZ3HEYA
——————
Part 3
Burlington Bar 6×10
Arya kills Walder
at 9:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGeRWi9w6-o
—-
Part 4
… And compare those reactions to:
Burlington Bar: “The Door” S6e5, last 3 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BQ29FNQfXo
—————
It’s really a tribute to Jack Bender and the showrunners that they could evoke such edge-of-your-seat suspense… followed by quiet, stunned silence.
kevin1989,
I remember eating those “stroopwafel” in a trip to Amsterdam, four years ago. The cookies were a little bit too sweet, but very good. Good luck with the baking. It’s good that you are promoting dutch food culture. A cousin of mine has been in Eindhoven for six months to study engineering under the Erasmus program. When he returned, he was complaining about the food there. It’s nice to have a different perspective.
I’m still working in this coronavirus crisis. I’m a journalist. So there are always things to write about. In the free time, I watch TV (I’m finishing the second watch of The Wire) and read. I’m taking a biology online course too, just for the fun of it.
Efi,
For me somebody who only steals a dragon so he can please a love-one is indeed a villain. That’s not a valid reason to steal a dragon. Also dragons have a mind of their own there are only a few ways to steal a dragon:
– They come over willingly, like they choose the new rider. (which I doubt will happen Dany is unique and the dragons sees her as a mother.
– The whip. This also comes with a lot of practice, look at Dany who almost got burned in the dragon pit when she uses the whip. Look at Quentyn. The whip is no easy toy, and there is little chance Jon can learn that in time. The method is also not something that I suggest is friendly.
– The only option that Jon has with stealing a dragon is option 3: Dark magic. And there is no way Jon can perform dark magic, and if he does it still remains dark magic, and he basically becomes Euron Greyjoy.
– The Free folk getting to westeros is much more complex. He didn’t take his oath more loosely, he even take his oath more seriously than the others of the nightwatch: I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.
The oath states protecting realm of men against the WW and are the dark creatures. The wildlings are part of that. He did indeed break the part of his vows that state he stay out of the affairs of kings and queens of westeros but he paid the price by getting shanked.
How is stealing a dragon saving Westeros? That’s also the thing, you think everything will be different with the ending that she show gave us, that we can take the show as measurements for what the books will become, but still the only thing you and Jonsa fandom are set up will happen 100% is Dany becoming a villain. Why is that also not up for “the show is no evidence what the books will bring”. I somehow think because while the other endings goes against the Jonsa theory, the ending of Dany going dark is evidence for the Jonsa theory. Correct me if I’m wrong?
As for the killing dany while he loves her: The reason is why, look at Robert Baratheon. Robert is in the end not the hero we though he was, his reason to go to war is fueled with personal feud that led to 10.000s of deaths, especially when Rheagar already tried to install a counsil that gives the country more freedom from the crown, meaning that Robert’s war is not for the greater good but rather a selfish egocentric reason. If he didn’t go to war it would have saved many lives, and a better system would have been in place. This is also what Jonsa theory suggest for Jon. He goes into war for a selfish desire of love. Not for the realm and the people but for himself. As for loving Dany and kills her, it depends how it plays out and what the reason is, and we don’t know if that happen (which probably will happen) and how and why it happens. So it’s not clear to say yet if that action is evil. But if Nissa Nissa is right (which we can assume it is, it’s the storyline that is in every book hugely), Jon will sacrafice his love for the lives of the realm. That makes him the opposite of a villain. He gives up something that he desires the most for the lives of others.
As for the show, yes here we can say something about how killing Dany was. But we know in the show that Jon didn’t love Sansa, in fact he didn’t like her at all (script, writers, directors, actors comments). He was in love with Dany (also script writers etc), and the reason he killed her was obvious to make sure lives were saved and not killed. That also doesn’t make him a villain. As for the sexism thrope, I’m not getting into that because it has nothing to do with what we are discussing: Is Jon a villain. That has more too do with the story itself and the writers not a action of a character.
The Jonsa theory talks about Jon getting to war with Daenerys for giving Sansa the Iron Throne. It specificity talk about Jon starting another war.
What we saw on screen is not that Jon killed Dany for WF, Sansa, Arya and Bran. In fact even after Tyrion speech he still got to Daenerys openminded and hoping that he is wrong about Daenerys, he still didn’t want to kill her. So what was the moment that changed his mind, when Daenerys told that nobody get to choose. Meaning the realm/the people/ everyone. That is what made Jon kill Dany, not his own family, but all the people who lived in Westeros. Even when Tyrion stated Sansa, Jon still defended Dany.
As for Jon going south by following his girlfriend, is completely different than what Jonsa state Jon will do, what Jonsa suggest is that Jon will go to war when peace is already there, because it could give Sansa the throne, he will give her the throne for love. Nothing in the Jonsa theory states that it is about defeating a villain and establish peace, in fact Jon will disrupt the peace by getting westeros into another war.
With Dany on the show it’s much different. First Dany was the hero of Winterfell who helped the north defeating the WW, who had the greatest loss of all, and they already made a pact if she helped win against the WW, they will help her get the Iron throne. Also in episode 4 Dany was not a villain yet, Jon did not intend for a burning of KL, he saw a good dany who would give peace to the realm. Who would undo Westeros of tyrants like Cersei, with Cersei there was no peace in the realm. He didn’t see the dark side of Dany. Does this make him evil? No. Does this make him naive and not a good judge of character? Yes. What Jon tried to do in the show was trying to achieve peace, but it failed because he didn’t see a side of show-dany that was there.
Compare to back again the Jonsa theory, in which Jon not only manipulate Dany and fake his love for her to get a dragon, it also disrupt a peaceful country. (we already know that once YG take seat on the Iron Throne, peace will be there. The house of the undying showed us that).
“Do you think that it’s ok to participate in mass murder because he loves her and thus kill her by exhibiting what Daenerys’ fans call “the human heart in conflict with itself”” What? Did you watch the show? The moment Dany turn ballistic and Grey worm start killing, Jon left the battle and fought against his own man who were raping and pillaging. He stopped helping Grey worm there and start protecting the innocent. He would be participating in the mass murder if he did was his fellow north man did, start killing and raping. He did the exact opposite.
But if the books and show ending are different why keep taking events of the show as hypothesis for what will happen in the books? The books will be different in the ending right? Doesn’t that also mean the events will be different and this hypothesis about what you state with ending a tyrant will be different?
But to go back to the killing for duty. It was never Jon’s duty to end Dany. But the question is what is Jon’s duty in the show and books? Wasn’t that protecting the realm and saving people from death? The show killing of Dany was not about duty vs love directly, it was about the choice: Letting his love-one live and letting 10s of thousand of people die. Or killing her and save those 10s of thousand of people. For Jon this was always his duty, saving people.
Why do you twist the events of the show? Jon never trick Dany into cooperating for the battling to fight the others. Daenerys fought against the others because she went north and saw the death and the WW for herself and Vyserion died there. Was Jon responsible for that? No, so he didn’t trick her. She went there on her own account, her own choice and she made up her own mind that the dead need to be taken serious or else she would rule over corpses.
“It follows that those who have this opinion have a problem with Jon messing with their favorite character, not with what Jon does or what he does not.” Are you suggesting that everyone who has this opinion I have, the anti-Jonsa opinion is suddenly a big fan of Daenerys?? I wrote this opinion (am not taking the Jonsa theory serious as you noticed) and you know from my comments from the previous years that Daenerys is by far my favorite character, and that I never really liked her (I like Emilia tho), I also was on Sansa’s side in the Sansa vs Dany feud in season 8 if you remember correctly.
“You can’t say that Jon participating in mass murder doesn’t make him a villain. He is a villain no matter which way you look at it. He will do that in the books too. Daenerys will destroy KL and no one will stop her in advance, not even Jon. And if he is with Daenerys, Jon is also a VILLAIN.”
So everything is different in the books ending but somehow this event is a 100% given? You can’t nitpick which events will happen from the shows event and which not that justified the Jonsa theory the best. If those endings are up for debate and will probably not happen in the books, so will Dany as a villain, and that is also up for debate.
But let’s just agree to disagree on this subject, it will be a debate until the books will give us the answer and that could still take a while, especially when this is about dream of springs and not winds of winter.
Up to 700 now 😀
Ten Bears,
Ten bears, this maybe will make you laugh 😀
Oh, I see!
Because if Jon has no feeling for Dany, if he’s doing it because he loves another, and Dany’s just another enemy to him — aunt or no aunt — it’s not nearly as agonizing. This doesn’t nearly come with nearly the personal cost as having to kill somebody he loves does, living with that for the rest of his life, while that loved one dies knowing he killed her.
In the case that Dany is a monster or even near a monster in the books: sacrificing his honor, ever declining reputation, and committing a taboo against a monster to save a loved one is something Jon would (and has) done: it’s a point of shame with him but not emotional turmoil.
When Qhorin Halfhand appointed Jon to go undercover with the wildlings, that would be a hit to Jon’s honor, Jon was unhappy, but he was not agonized. When Qhorin forced Jon to kill him to make the ruse work, the most painful part about that wasn’t the hit it takes to Jon’s honor — it was because he had great respect for Qhorin.
Likewise, betraying the wildlings became that much harder because of personal emotion and feeling — Jon got to know these people, saw they were people rather than clear cut enemies, he loved a wildling and was fond of others. He felt for them. He wasn’t in emotional turmoil because of honor, taboo, and how he’d look.
He was in emotional turmoil because of the personal feelings he developed for these people who he’d have to cut down if they attacked the realm and that caused him great pain, especially with Ygritte.
Jon doesn’t even kill her himself but he feels as if he did and that haunts him.
Jon knows his reputation is on the decline. By ASOS, Jon knows he’s viewed as an oathbreaker, turncloak, and murderer by those around him, he knows he’ll be viewed as the Lord Commander who let the “enemy” in when he lets the wildlings south of the Wall. This is a point of shame for him but he sacrifices his image over and over it it means saving lives — but he’ll still make the unpopular choices, break with tradition, and commit taboos if it means saving lives.
As he reflects in ADWD:
Strange thing is, I’ve lost wait. I wonder how because I’m doing less than normally, I bake a lot and eat it. But everything is normal with me, my thyroid works fine so that’s not it.
Maybe I eat too much when at work XD We do lunch together there.
Adrianacandle,
I would love too see the pictures of it 😀
Tiago,
I also am far from a sweettooth, I prefer sour and bitter, or spicy. But stroopwafels I like. And in the cake it’s even better.
Oh that’s great that you still can work. I hope still from home that you are safe? The wire is amazing, which season are you now?
Adrianacandle,
Better worded than what I did. This is what I meant.
kevin1989,
• Wait. What is this “Jonsa” theory and what indication is there in the books that the Big Procrastinator intends to develop it?
You wrote:
”As for Jon going south by following his girlfriend, is completely different than what Jonsa state Jon will do, what Jonsa suggest is that Jon will go to war when peace is already there, because it could give Sansa the throne, he will give her the throne for love. Nothing in the Jonsa theory states that it is about defeating a villain and establish peace, in fact Jon will disrupt the peace by getting westeros into another war.
With Dany on the show it’s much different. First Dany was the hero of Winterfell who helped the north defeating the WW…”
• Does this “Jonsa” theory posit that Jon will start another war just to place his “beloved” Sansa on the throne? Is there a basis for this in the books? Because I did not perceive any hints of this on the show. Jon ❤️Sansa seems as strained as the Varys is a merman 🧜🏽♂️ theory. Am I missing something?
• To be clear, on the show Dany was NOT “the hero of Winterfell.” Rather, in S8e4 Dany herself expressly anointed someone else as the “the Hero of Winterfell.”
Adrianacandle,
…This is a point of shame for him but he sacrifices his image over and over it it means saving lives — but he’ll still make the unpopular choices, break with tradition, and commit taboos if it means saving lives.
As he reflects in ADWD:
“I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man’s honor.”
_____
For a second there I thought this could describe
Jaime – at least before his S8 “I never gave a sh*t about the innocent people” turnabout.
kevin1989,
”….Strange thing is, I’ve lost weight. I wonder how because I’m doing less than normally, I bake a lot and eat it. But everything is normal with me, my thyroid works fine so that’s not it.“
Give it time, my friend, give it time. It will sneak up on you. If you “bake a lot” and eat what you bake, there’s no escaping the inevitable consequences.
As for myself, I’m going to see if Amazon has good prices on breastplate stretchers.
Yes, I think it does too… I think killing Aerys and the scorn he received for that was what slowly corrupted him into becoming the jerk he was when AGOT begins.
That and Jaime never told anyone, not until Brienne, so nobody really knew why.
What is said in the bathtub, stays in the bathtub?
Many of my covers of Whitney Houston songs have stayed in the bathtub… 🙁
I’m lying on my bed with the trackpad almost under my chin and I only have one chin now… but with enough Skip the Dishes…
And Kevin’s descriptions of baked goods aren’t helping the future of my chin either! I don’t want my chin to have siblings, I want my chin to be an only child…
But stroopwafels….
Ten Bears,
Yes they believe that Jon and Sansa (short Jonsa) will be the endgame of the books. That Jon will fake his love for Dany to steal a dragon for her, they believe Jon foresee Dany to burn KL to the ground so he steals a dragon to make sure that doesn’t happen (yes Jon can see the future in their theory). He starts a war with Dany for this to end Dany’s reign. He does not do this for the safety of the people of Westeros, he does that for one thing only: His love for Sansa. He wants to give her the Iron Throne and protect her like a prince.
And about the evidence, well the evidence for Jonsa is a bit like the evidence Donald Trump gives about stuff in my opinion. They make up facts, they change facts (I saw some arguments of Jonsa that were altered quotes of the books to make a point), they twists facts, they appoints quotes that was not about Jon or Sansa to them to make a point. Or execute things. They also are very much into “fake news” like the Alan Taylor statement about Jon and Dany in love, they label that as a fake news and that Alan Taylor lied.
They even state in the show that Jon didn’t love dany and was doing it all for Sansa (even when everybody working on the show state otherwise). Look up Jonsa fanart show and you see a lot of scenes from the show twisted for the Jonsa theory to fit. Like in season 7 they are obsessed with one scene where Jon looked like he was in love with Sansa. Did not happen but it is what they see.
But they also state when the books doesn’t give us Jonsa, that means GRRM changed his mind about Jonsa that he planned since book 1.
A while back on another site I had an argument with a Jonsa (in fact two Jonsa fans), and when I got with evidence they couldn’t refute or give arguments against my argument, they become very personal with giving nicknames and try to get me to get personal back to get the upper-hand. And also everyone who is not in with the Jonsa theory is by definition a Dany Stan (A Dany Stan is what I found on the internet a hardcore fan of Dany). So you either one that thinks Jonsa is the endgame, or else you are a hardcore Dany fan.
They also think D&D were appeasing the Dany fans with the ending of season 8. They really believe that the love of Jon was appeasing the Dany fans even when it means she became a Tyrant and get killed. They think Dany fans were appeased by that. Because they weren’t happy with that Jonsa didn’t happen. (I think you won’t get it, neither am I, still puzzled with it). Also what they do is stating their theory as fact, and everyone who doesn’t see it, is not smart enough to see it. They are the only one that knows the ending 100%
But as you see I’m not a fan of the theory or the fans of the theory. Doesn’t mean that I’m against Jon and Sansa being the endgame, if done right I’m all up for it, but I don’t think it will happen, small chance (I rather put my money on the state lottery), but if done right i’m up for it. I’m just not a fan how that theory is build.
https://pics.me.me/go-find-the-breastplate-stretcher-now-must-be-west-of-57388855.png
Adrianacandle,
https://www.koopmans.com/assets/_processed_/6/a/csm_Oud-hollandse-stroopwafelcake_0ef2acd70f.jpg
kevin1989,
Thanks for that explanation of “Jonsa.”
I saw nothing on the show that remotely suggests this “Jon + Sansa” scenario.
In fact, at the very end Jon didn’t seem too pleased with Sansa, who’d breached his trust a second time (KotV concealment in S6; then blabbing the secret of his parentage in S8).
In Jon’s farewell to Sansa, Arya and Bran in S8e6, he’s kind of standoffish to Sansa, and much more emotional with Arya….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Bg_2ae8Vk
2:06 – 2:21
Sansa: “Forgive me.”
Jon (Says nothing; changes subject): “The North is free thanks to you…”
at 2:52 -3:59 Jon says goodbye to Arya, they embrace and sob.
kevin1989,
Ha! I thought for a second that King Robert-in-the-clouds “Go find the breastplate stretcher!” meme was taken from Maisie Williams’s appearance in the Dr. Who episode, “The Girl Who Died”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v52e1aQRTpw
at 2:05 – 2:26
An excellent word from the awesome Pilou Asbæk. ❤👍
https://www.instagram.com/p/B-wG1FfleSP/?igshid=zz2vgmpjnm3q
Well, my computer had a total meltdown a half hour ago, I’m afraid, and took my files (up to last month’s backup) with it, including the photos of the laser stuff. Hopefully, I can share soon, maybe retake the photos with a better camera. I’m hoping the SSD is fine and it’s the motherboard that’s gone wonky or something :/
Thanks, Pigeon 🙂
I’m on it 🙂 Hopefully this week! I’m sorry it’s not today 🙁
And thank-you!
That stroopwafel cake looks incredible, wow *_*
Adrianacandle,
”Oh, I see!
Because if Jon has no feeling for Dany, if he’s doing it because he loves another, and Dany’s just another enemy to him — aunt or no aunt — it’s not nearly as agonizing. This doesn’t nearly come with nearly the personal cost as having to kill somebody he loves does, living with that for the rest of his life, while that loved one dies knowing he killed her.
In the case that Dany is a monster or even near a monster in the books: sacrificing his honor, ever declining reputation, and committing a taboo against a monster to save a loved one is something Jon would (and has) done: it’s a point of shame with him but not emotional turmoil.”
Q: Are we talking about hypotheticals involving book! Jon’s possible motivations for shanking Dany? If so, as a pre-books fan I’d be interested to know: Is there anything in the books that would suggest that Jon would have no compunctions about killing Dany as if she were a rabid dog?
I cannot fathom Jon turning into such a lowlife that he he does away with Dany because he was using her (eg to get a dragon), and pretended to love her when he really loved someone else.
I for one was not “sold” on the Dany and Jon romance on the show. It seemed perfunctory rather than earned. That’s why – for me at least – Ygritte dying in Jon’s arms was so sad, and I didn’t feel that way when he stuck Dany with the pointy end.
Look, I get it that we were told Dany and Jon love each other. I accept that as show canon. His decision would have had more resonance if just a little more time had been spent showing they were in love, rather than telling us they were.
(Note: I thought the stage direction in the script indicated that Jon was torn between his attraction and affection for Dany, and his realization that she had gone full on looney tunes.)
Notwithstanding my ignorance about the books, (I think) I agree with you that Jon killing Dany for selfish reasons – like threats to a loved one –
wouldn’t involve the kind of emotional turmoil that he’d have to bear if he truly loved her even though she had revealed herself to be a megalomaniacal tyrant.
Along those lines… a “Jonsa” motive for murdering Dany would really turn Jon into an ubervillain himself. I can’t see GRRM doing that to his protagonist – actually, both of his protagonists. Then again, what do I know?
Ten Bears,
Dany’s decision to scorch King’s Landing took everyone by surprise — including her, if I read Emilia Clarke’s acting correctly. If it shocked us, an audience who knew the whole story, imagine what a character like Jon was feeling. With no warning and in an instant, victorious liberation turned to pointless slaughter. Watching Grey Worm kill a surrendered Lannister soldier, watching his own Northmen suddenly behaving no better than gang-raping Dothraki — it’s to Jon’s credit he was able to assert what control he could to stop his own men from joining the rampage. (He even managed to get some of them out of the city before Dany’s Inferno roasted them alive.)
Yet when it mattered the most he did nothing.
When it mattered the most, he did the one thing he needed to do: murder a defenseless young woman whom he’d loved, and who had trusted him completely — right up until the moment he shoved a knife into her heart. In an instant, the man who’d grown up thinking of himself as the son of The Honorable Lord Eddard Stark, Warden of the North, became a kingslayer, kinslayer, and treasonous Warden of that same North. Everything in his background argued against him doing what he needed to do, and yet, when it mattered most, he did it anyway. He remained the shield which guards the realms of men — a calling historically answered more by criminals than ‘honorable’ men.
When it mattered the most, he defied his upbringing, his love, and even his blood to fulfill the oath he had taken. He truly was the hero of an epic tale.
I’ve always respected the fact that Pilou has been open about his disappointment regarding not getting to play the Euron he had read about (briefly seen in his introduction on the bridge, ha!), yet still appreciating being able to play the role and be a part of such a great team of people. ❤ He’s just a really decent guy, and a good actor. 😁
Count me in as looking forward to seeing your work – you know I’m already a fan! I am wrecking my brain for ideas re: weirwood leaves, something like an illuminated manuscript material/foil would be really cool (like gold leaf, but red, like the monks used to use in texts). I swear I am dumber by the day being away from work, however, and my think isn’t braining right. 😆
Ten Bears,
Yes!
Right — I, myself, don’t see anything indicating this, no. Jon has lied — but I can’t remember him ever using somebody and discarding them when they were no longer useful to him. I also can’t remember him faking feelings like that, especially on that intimate a level. Even with Ygritte, Jon did everything he could to push her away and keep his distance from her while Ygritte would continue her sexual advances.
When Mance had started to have his doubts about Jon’s loyalties and Ygritte jumps in, saying they sleep together every night, Mance accepts this. Later, when Jon and Ygritte are alone, they have this exchange:
Jon forced to sleep with her here, he didn’t do it as part of a ruse. However, Jon’s feels for Ygritte are genuine — he starts to truly fall in love with her, making the prospect of his leaving that much harder.
I have my own ideas about how I think things will go but they’re just that, my own ideas and I’m uncertain on them. Dame of Mercia made a really good point when she said, “Sometimes over analysing books can be akin to Wordsworth speaking about ‘We murder to dissect,'” which I’m afraid of doing.
I think that’s very fair and understandable. I felt a lot of the stuff in later seasons felt like the checkbox effect as if they were going through a grocery list of items they needed to cover. But I don’t think I need to repeat the problems I had with season 8, I’ve definitely done that a lot and the last thing I want to do is start another anti-season 8 fest (but you gave me some links to some great video reviews). I appreciate the concepts behind what they were trying to do but they just needed more development. I’m looking forward to seeing how the books do some of this stuff if it goes the same way.
Right, and I don’t know anything more than anyone else here either. I’ve got my own thoughts of where things might, maybe go but they’re just speculations and I know I’m not in GRRM’s head — although, I’d die a million times over to be a fly on the wall during GRRM’s meetings with D&D just so I can know what he has planned. For me, I don’t see these Jonsa motives as fitting into the progression of Jon’s arc for the reasons I’ve said above and I think the inner struggles and decisions for Jon are going to get even crueler while the war with himself is not over.
But like you said, what do I know? There was a long period of my life (longer than I’m going to admit) during which I thought there were two Africas. The European Africa and the one under South America.
So…………………. That should be a good barometer for my intelligence ;D
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
”When it mattered the most, he defied his upbringing, his love, and even his blood to fulfill the oath he had taken. He truly was the hero of an epic tale.”
I defer to you, oh Tensor the Wise. You’re right. Dany flipping out took everyone by surprise. And Jon did try to walk her back from her delusional “liberation” plan, to no avail.
(It’s like a leader 🍊 who’s only concerned with his or her own illusions of grandeur, and is oblivious to people dying by the thousands.)
I’ve got to go back and see what King Robert said about Dany in S1…something about getting rid of one “dragonspawn” was worth it to avoid bigger problems down the road.
Pigeon,
Oh, me too! I very much like that about Pilou! It would have been really awesome to see the downright nightmare that is Euron, who I’d say is worse than Ramsay. And I think that’s saying something!
Have you seen Alt Shift X’s video on Euron? I thought it was very good!! And I think it provides a nice summary of book Euron for pre-book fans! (If you’re curious, Ten Bears!)
Maybe teeny tiny dots of dyed gold leaf might work and if I keep it to the relief sections… then perhaps I can speckle a few crystals throughout. Would be cheaper and may minimize the evil apple tree effect.
And thank-you, Pigeon!! I think this was a blessing in disguise! I needed to retake those photos. I took them on my phone in my photo cube and on some of them, half my phone’s shadow is obstructing the light so they don’t look awesome. I think they need to be with a lens that’s better than what an iPhone 6 has to offer — maybe one with a good zoom so my phone isn’t hovering above the wood and I can take the photo through the top hole in the cube.
Eventually, I’m hoping to sell patterns for laser cutting once I get the burn kerf right so this is good practice for product photography that doesn’t take me a million hours of touch-ups in Photoshop! 🙂
Adrianacandle,
[Dialogue from the books that you quoted]:
Jon: “You said-”
Ygritte: “-that we fuck beneath your cloak many a night. I never said when we started, though.” The smile she gave him was almost shy. “Find another place for Ghost to sleep tonight, Jon Snow. It’s like Mance said. Deeds is truer than words.”
Does this mean there was no cave scene in the books???
Ygritte teasing Jon to chase her into the cave and seducing him there was one of the highlights of the show (for me).
Adrianacandle,
Gah, typos galore:
*Jon was forced to sleep with her here, he didn’t initiate sexual relations as part of a ruse. However, Jon’s feelings for Ygritte were genuine — he starts to truly fall in love with her, making the prospect of his leaving that much harder, thus the ‘wrong to love her, wrong to leave’ quote.
Oh, there’s definitely a cave scene! 😉 They do it more than once! And there’s seduction, during which I recall playful teasing! Let me get you the quotes!
Ten Bears,
Better yet, let Sam read the book’s cave scene for you outloud 😉
Click me!
Adrianacandle,
”But I don’t think I need to repeat the problems I had with season 8, I’ve definitely done that a lot and the last thing I want to do is start another anti-season 8 fest (but you gave me some links to some great video reviews)…”
I didn’t intend to reignite a whingefest either.
About great reviews: If you haven’t read Laura Stone’s real-time reviews on heydontjudgeme.com, they’re really witty and funny. (As a pre-books fan, she watched the show without being spoiled – and strictly enforced a “no-books discussion” rule in the Comments section.) I also think she was a featured guest speaker at the last Con of Thrones.
Caution! The last time I tried to re-read some of her reviews by clicking on heydontjudgeme.com, I got weird error messages that the site wasn’t safe or something.
Adrianacandle,
(Continued from 1:42 am above)
Here’s the weird message on my screen when I clicked on heydontjudgeme.com:
“This Connection is Not Private
This website may be impersonating heydontjudgeme.com to steal your personal or financial information. You should close this page.”
—————
😳
Ten Bears,
Oh, I know! I just was wanting to assure people that I wasn’t intending to go down this road again 🙂
Thanks!!
As for the message of caution, I think I might go ahead and proceed — Dad doesn’t call me ‘Tasha the Destroyer’ for nothing 🙂 (RIP Macbook Aurora the VIIth)
Also, this from the Jon and Ygritte’s cave scene:
(This is near the end of chapter Jon III/Chapter 26 of ASOS)
Adrianacandle,
Every time there’s a love scene in ASOIAF (or GoT), all I can think of is how rank they must all smell. 😂
Ten Bears,
Here is the, “I don’t want to ever leave this cave, Jon Snow,” part from the books 🙂
Now I will never stop thinking about that when I read a love scene set in medieval times!! XD
Euron is one character in the novels whom I find pretty terrifying. He’s that cold, unpredictable, absolutely brutal type of character that is insane but also incredibly intelligent. Yikes. Simply put, he impresses me, and not in a happy way. Lol. Very far from what some call show-Euron’s cartoonish personality. I think Pilou could have pulled it off – there were moments that showed it – but I think it would have taken a lot more time out of the episodes to see that version of Euron, as opposed to reading it.
Arghhhhh the phone shadow. I have ruined a good few photos doing that, drives me nuts. Can’t wait to see! 😊
I have been going through an embarrassing number of storage boxes as there was a pipe leak right above our storage room and we had to dismantle the shelves and evaluate the amount of unknown crap we possess. Lol. Currently I am on my third box of university stuff. My god. It’s like I threw 6 years worth of work in there without looking through anything, and said “See ya!!!” Well, now I’m seeing ya, and it’s taking forever. 😳
Ten Bears,
I should add that in the books, the cave scene isn’t the first time they have sex like it was with them in the show. They’re already pretty familiar with each other by the time they reach the caves and Jon is trying to avoid the reminder that he’s a man of the Night’s Watch.
Pigeon,
Oh, definitely.
And that Euron commits such depraved acts just to show the gods he is above them and these acts really are the stuff that comes from horror films — and more than that, he just doesn’t want to show up the gods, he intends on being a god.
Like what he does to Falia.
Jeeze.
Omg that’s my exact situation (but without the pipe leak — I’m sorry to hear about that, what a pain in the ass 🙁 ) and I admire you for taking up that task, that is a task I fear… I have a garage full of boxes that I haven’t opened in four years from my last apartment, which contained unopened boxes I hadn’t gone through since university either.
When I open those boxes, I wonder if I’ll still smell Pizza Pizza? 🙂 My apartment in Toronto ended up smelling like so much Pizza Pizza because it was always open at 3 AM, bless them ;;
How many boxes do you have to go through?? And is it weird? I always find myself being flooded by memories opening up boxes I haven’t gone through in years.
kevin1989,
No, it was my mistake. It wasn’t very clear, I am sorry. I should have foreseen it.
I’ve had e-classes in the past few days and since everything has been happening via internet/skype, I had some very intimate discussions with Microsoft/Facebook where it was mostly me cursing in frustration, the other party keeping mostly silent apart from beeping sounds declaring “you’re not doing something right! try again!”
I swear I’m too old for racing with technology…
But I’m not that old to feel nostalgic about the old phones where you put the finger in the hole for dialing, lol. Not yet anyway.
Ten Bears,
Agree, if Jon really loved Sansa romantically, he would have forgiven her, he even would have embraced her more than he did Arya. He still blame Sansa for telling about his parentage, that lead to the events of 8×05 and him killing Dany the one he loved.
Ten Bears,
I think it was 😀
Pigeon,
I agree with you. Pilou is very honest about it. But also very lay back about it and happy to have worked on the show.
Pigeon,
Adrianacandle,
He is the most scary one in the books, Ramsay was an upgraded Joffrey, Euron an upgraded Ramsay.
About people smelling rank, book Winterfell hadhot springs underneath so had a form of central heating. I don’t think that’s a book spoiler.
Adrianacandle,
Tasha the Destroyer strikes again.
Adrianacandle,
Thanks for those Ygritte & Jon book excerpts (the seduction and cave scenes).
The show was fairly faithful in adapting the dialogue. And I kind of like the show! scene better. Rose Leslie was so good….
#DoItBastard!
#TheLordsKiss
#KissedByFire
(No wonder Jon still loved Ygritte even though she was dead, and rejected Melisandre’s offer of a free lap dance with a “happy ending.”)
Efi,
Could happen. And I agree a bit with the newer technology, it can do more but also it crashes more or do other things than what you want them to do.
Hope everything is all right there in these times.
Dame of Mercia,
That’s why Robb was so good with the girls. It was that he didn’t reek like the rest of them.
(funny thing is that is exactly how Viking man were seen as attracted by the English when they raided. They were cleaner than the English man themselves. The Vikings washes at least once a week. Say something about how many times the English men washed themselves.)
There’s an income decrease, of course, but I’m luckier than most. Some people doesn’t have any work. Others are possibly exposed to coronavirus in their workplace. On “The Wire”, I’m watching season 5, the last one.
The only Euron scene I really like in the show is his very first one, when he kills Balon. I think Pilou was able to display the more remarkable traits of book Euron: he’s powerful in a eerie and terrifying way. And he’s dressed like an ironborn.
Since the beginning of season 7, he was just a rockstar pirate. That mysterious aura present in the books has just vanished. Maybe the writers have thought the new version of Euron would be more able to forge an alliance with Cersei. In season 7, practically all Euron’s actions are meant to please Cersei.
Yes. This Destroyer has been penalized the $600 cost of having to buy a used 2013 retina Macbook (Aurora the VIII) to replace Aurora VII, who is now in pieces.
💸💸💸
Electronics shudder in fear when I am nearby.
“Happy ending” 😂
Agreed that the dialogue was adapted pretty faithfully and I also like the show scene just a bit better — Rose Leslie was just perfect <3
Adrianacandle,
”Yes. This Destroyer has been penalized the $600 cost of having to buy a used 2013 retina Macbook (Aurora the VIII) to replace Aurora VII, who is now in pieces.
💸💸💸
Electronics shudder in fear when I am nearby.”
———
How about a fully functional Android?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0FVMHJReKk
at 1:32
Ten Bears,
Thank you for the compliments. Jon did seem subdued after The Long Night, but I understood that to mean defeating the Night’s King had left him without a purpose in life. The prospect of becoming the Queen’s Consort must have seemed like a pretty dull existence after his adventures beyond The Wall to defeat the Army of the Dead.
I’ve got to go back and see what King Robert said about Dany in S1…something about getting rid of one “dragonspawn” was worth it to avoid bigger problems down the road.
As I’ve previously mentioned, that scene is one of many which, I expect, will look very, very different when viewed with the knowledge of what Dany will do. On my next rewatch, I hope to find many little such hints I missed all of the other times.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
Here’s the S1e5 scene with Ned, Robert & the Small Council discussing assassinating Dany.
Grand Maester Pycelle was prescient!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CankONrIaO4
——-
Pycelle: “I bear this girl no ill will, but should the Dothraki invade, how many innocents will die? How many towns will burn? Is it not wiser, kinder even, that she should die now so that tens of thousands might live?”
——
“Staying at home leads to death also,” Trump said, when asked if opening up the country could lead to death. “A different kind of death, perhaps, but it leads to death also.”
Molly Jong-Fast: “Yes death by takeout, the most lethal kind of death.”
Jennifer Taub: “Death by chocolate. Did you see this cake I made yesterday?” [embedded photo]
SF: “A different kind of death”
https://madwomaninanattic.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/blogga16.gif?w=245&h=200
Hopefully you still get enough that you can get by.
You are going pretty fast 😀 Season 5 was the journalist season right?
LOL!!!!!!
Nice catch! XD
And ‘Tasha Yar’!
kevin1989,
If you’re tall you burn calories better than other body-types.
Your thyroid working well is good, it helps your metabolism.
If you exercise or do any type of workout it also helps your metabolism remain at the same levels. Your body remembers!
If you don’t abuse drinking, especially beers, you’ll never get a beer-belly.
Also, men do eat more than women. All those muscles to feed! Long stretches of them, lol. But if you do all the above, you’re safe.
More care is needed only after 45-50.
Adrianacandle,
I do not think that Dany will be a clear-cut monster in the book before the end of it. And I do think that Jon will have a problem killing her regardless of his feelings for her.
I do not think that the book will deviate significantly from the show in that respect, plotwise I mean. He will follow her South and perhaps he will also take part in the sacking of KL.
If the foreshadow I pointed to above has any value as foreshadow and is not just nice words, there might be a chance plotwise that he will abstain the last minute and turn against her troops inside the city? Perhaps. That will be a difficult one to pull narratively.
kevin1989,
I always thought that the truest statement of all that I have seen is the one about “the broad strokes”.
The main events shall be there, but the details as to how we get there including individual endings of the characters can differ (not necessarily, but they can differ no one can deny that).
As for the Jonsa theory, that’s crap! Where did you see that written? I swear I’ve never seen that one. But I guess there’s many versions of it out there.
But as I said in my previous comment, many of the people involved in that theory are very young, know nothing or very little about literature, and see the book through a romantic pink lens. This is not a romantic story.
Jon is not going to kill Dany for any throne, or for giving it to someone else. I don’t think that the fate of the throne will come into his considerations at all. He’s not accustomed to think in terms of power; gaining more power for himself or helping someone else become more powerful doesn’t come into his considerations, if my memory doesn’t fail me.
As I see it the characters have their own arcs to fulfill and the point is that the decisions they make are entirely their own, even if an affair of the heart has influenced them.
For example, in her prophecies, it is said that Daenerys has a “treason for love” to live through. And then that she will light “a fire to love”.
Will one influence the other? Who knows. Perhaps it will. Perhaps it will be as the show told us, that it was the loss and grief and the fact that the common folk of KL turned to her enemy, Cersei, begging her, instead of begging Daenerys. Or perhaps it will be all that, plus an affair of the heart.
As you note, we’ll never know unless the final book comes out.
But my reasons to sustain that Jon will not be in love with Daenerys are based on the narrative of the book and doesn’t have much to do with Sansa and foreshadow.
They are based on Jon’s arc, rather than anything else. [note that it doesn’t mean that he will not like her, of sympathise with her, or even develop some tender feelings for her; but being in love is deeper].
In fact, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that Jon’s ending and the details leading to it (meaning if he will fall in love with Daenerys or not, or if he’ll be in love with Sansa or someone else) are very well hidden in the narrative, so much so that trying to foresee it is very precarious.
I’d like to see him as king, but at this point being exiled also seems quite possible, so I don’t know what to believe. I don’t like the exile option, especially as it was portrayed in the show, but if the author can bring it there in a beautiful manner, fulfilling for the character and satisfying for the reader, so be it.
Efi,
But Jon’s honor and image (becoming a kingslayer and a kinslayer) isn’t a point of personal agony for him — especially if (as per this theory) Jon has already been faking his feelings for Dany, lying to her this whole time, and takes part in the sacking of King’s Landing only to keep Sansa safe.
Dany being his aunt and his queen (especially if Jon views Dany as being this horrible person all along) isn’t enough, I don’t think.
It’s personal feeling for the person he is acting against that makes this conflict all the more brutal, not the issue of his honor (which, from the first book, Jon has already been willing to give up if it means doing the right thing). His respect and appreciation for Mance, his respect for Qhorin, and especially his love for Ygritte — those are what caused Jon significant pain and haunt him.
For instance, Jon liked Mance — but he was prepared to kill him to stop Mance’s attack on the Wall.
I think Jon needs to love Dany for this to be a “human heart in conflict with itself” that tears Jon up inside and escalate the personal cost to him — as each of Jon’s conflicts seems to do (the Arya vs. his vow of neutrality being the worst so far).
And I agree with Kevin: I think there’s a lot to the Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa stuff. I’m not certain, I can’t be certain, but I think it’s there.
But if, per your prediction, Jon views Dany as this horrible person (which he doesn’t in the show) and he only follows Dany south and takes part in the sack of King’s Landing (before or after surrender) — not with the intent of overthrowing a terrible ruler (Cersei) for the sake of one he thinks is better (Dany) and but the sake of securing safety for his family — that makes Jon like everyone else but kind of worse in my opinion.
What would Jon be planning to do next? In the show, as he told Sansa, Jon thought Dany would be a good queen for the realm but that’s not the case here. You use the Malazza passage above to predict Dany forcing Jon into submission and over to her side while she threatens Sansa so it doesn’t seem like Jon would be viewing Dany as a good option for the realm. But he follows her south anyway and takes part in a massacre. In the show, Jon didn’t take part in the massacre. And he wasn’t okay with it. The reason Jon doesn’t want to kill Dany, wanted to believe this marks the end of the war, and still tried changing her mind against more killing is because he loved her, didn’t want to kill her, and personal feelings compromised him here. As they’ve compromised him in the books.
Well, that passage may be foreshadowing something but I don’t think it’s foreshadowing the scenario you’re proposing above for the reasons I’ve already mentioned. I feel there’s too much selecting certain variables to apply and discarding others (cherry-picking) and I also think the connections are tenuous :/
So Jon would follow Dany south, thinking she’s a horrible person, take part in her massacre — but change his mind at the last minute and battle her troops? Why the change of heart? In this scenario, he seems willing to kill a buttload of people and support somebody he thinks is pretty awful for Sansa’s sake — before he turns against her and does some more war, which kills more and more people.
Per your response to Kevin:
The theory Kevin is referencing is the Jonsa Political!Jon/Sacrificial!Jon theory you and I have been arguing over in several threads — like this one (dated September 2019). The one that has Jon sexually manipulating Dany and pretending to love her in order to use her dragons to defend against the Others before turning around and betraying her.
I’m very sorry if I’m misunderstanding you at all here 🙁
Efi,
Yes so overall I’m very happy about it 😀 Well exercise I should maybe do more often, but I do house chores more than normally.
And about drinking, I like so now and then a wine or a coffee-liqueur. But I don’t like drinking alone, so I maybe drink once in the 1 or 2 months 2 glasses/shots. And luckily the taste of beer doesn’t agree with me.
Muscles? What are they? XD I wish I had some good muscles, but I never could maintain a fitness life.
Efi,
Adrianacandle,
I indeed meant that version of the Jonsa theory. But I think at least for me, we all said what we wanted to say, and I’m fine either way whatever the books may bring as long as 2 things happen:
– It’s compelling.
– The books are there, so that it doesn’t stay in the 1000s of theories that are out there.
For me the whole discussions about the books especially the theories etc that are over-debated in the past is for me not something I really enjoy discussing anymore. For me I wish that the discussion could get another level, with winds out there, with some theories proven right or wrong, with others some new info about that either give the theory more basis or point it to another direction than we initially though of. Especially with asoiaf that has many and many smaller mysteries I want many to be answered. Those mysteries are nice to talk about and get the answer 2 years later, but not 10 years later.
Adrianacandle,
I don’t think that Jon will see Daenerys as an enemy; at least not from day one. However, you noted yourself that Jon has grown used to speaking with enemies and trying to bring them over to his side. His purpose with Daenerys will be exactly that. I suppose that in the beginning Daenerys to Jon will be one more claimant to the IT. That doesn’t make her an enemy to him, much as it doesn’t make Stannis an enemy to him. With Cersei and the Lannisters it’s different because they annihilated his family, but Daenerys won’t be an enemy to Jon.
Daenerys being “duped” into helping him because he’ll be giving her s*x is unlike Daenerys. She’s quite smart herself, and this is true throughout the book. In this situation I think she’ll recognize it herself that aiding the North will be a win/win for both parties. So I don’t think that’s too much of a manipulation.
I also don’t think that Daenerys will be as difficult with helping Jon as she was in the show. The reason for it is that she will arrive in a country with a king the crowds will be cheering for; a king accepted, and with enough support (the Reach and Dorne at least). She will need allies herself, so beginning with the North is not a bad idea. If in this context s*x with Jon is inserted, where is the manipulation and why would Jon be a villain because of it? The only reason for me to consider him a villain would be if he already knew that she was his aunt. But chances are that it will be involuntary incest, just like it was in the show.
So as I see it, it will be an affair between two adults who like each other, and love needs not come in between them. That doesn’t make Jon a manipulator (sleeping with a woman he liked), even if Dany will fall for him. It also doesn’t preclude that he will like her, at least a bit. Of course sleeping with someone does help feelings to grow but that doesn’t mean that he will fall for her either.
There’s a range of possibilities there, narratively, that do bring about “the human heart in conflict with itself” whether or not Jon falls in love with Dany. By the time he comes to kill her, the fact that she will have helped him, that she will be his aunt, that they will have shared an intimacy common to lovers will make this horrible enough for Jon to be in conflict with himself.
Anyway, that’s what I think.
kevin1989,
You’re so right! I like the theories though, but I can’t wait enough until WoW comes out…
As Tensor would say, I should get a life!
[but there’s a curfew in my country, so that is postponed]
Efi,
• Based on the show and my limited, second-hand knowledge of the books, the “Jonsa” theory makes little sense. Also, as I suggested in previous comments above (4/9/20 at 5:35 pm and 4/10/20 at 12:05 am), the show would seem to refute any romantic connection between Sansa and Jon.
• I would think that such a development, e.g., a love triangle involving Jon, Dany, and Sansa (and Jon confronting his “human heart in conflict with itself”) would’ve been a major point that GRRM would have shared with the showrunners.
• Q: I seem to remember that in GRRM’s long since-abandoned, original pitch* for his intended book series alluded to a love triangle between Tyrion, Jon and Arya.
– Could that – with a change in genders – be the source of the Jonsa theories?
– Or, did the subplot involving Jon and Tyrion vying for the same woman evolve into Tyrion’s belated S8e5 or e6 admission to Jon that he “loved” Dany – though “not as successfully” as Jon?
• Obviously, I’m glad GRRM jettisoned such an icky Jon – Arya – Tyrion love triangle story line once he actually started writing the books.
* Didn’t some enterprising researcher find a copy of GRRM’s typewritten 1-3 page pitch to his publisher? I thought I remembered seeing that or reading about it a while back.
That’s true and you’ve definitely got a point. It’s no longer fun when things are debated to death and I’m definitely guilty of over-debating and of repeating my points -_- I’m also guilty of misreading and misunderstanding.
And it’s true we all have our own ideas how things will go.
I think Dame of Mercia also hit the bullseye when she said:
(I hope you don’t mind me quoting you, Dame, I just think what you said here was really well articulated).
Efi, if you see this, my criticisms of your theories are nothing personal. They’re criticisms of your arguments re:ASOIAF and GoT, certainly not criticisms of you as a person. If I’ve misread or misunderstood, I sincerely apologize and please let me know 🙁
Efi,
[At 4:17 pm you wrote]:
”…There’s a range of possibilities there, narratively, that do bring about “the human heart in conflict with itself” whether or not Jon falls in love with Dany…”
I didn’t see your 4:17 pm comment until after I posted mine at 4:20 pm quoting the same “human heart in conflict with itself” theme with which GRRM says he’s enamored.
What’s the old saying about minds thinking alike? 🤔
Efi,
Okay, thanks for explaining!
I don’t know if Jon has brought anyone over to his side — he’s made common cause with them and compromises, joined forces against a common foe for the good of all. He’s extended the olive branch to the likes of the Weeper for the sake of peace: “peace for one means peace for all” but still views the Weeper and Rattleshirt as terrible people.
Okay, I agree that Dany can’t really be manipulated by sex and helping defeat the Others is in her interest. Yet, if Jon feels nothing for her, why would Jon be sleeping with her, especially if it’s going to cause problems with the North? What compels him to sleep with her in this case?
It’s true, love isn’t the only reason why people have sex but with Jon’s character, unless Dany is forcing him to have sex with her or she’s going to do something awful, Jon has/develops genuine feelings for the other person. He had feelings for Ygritte even before he slept with her, falling in love with her, and Jon has genuine feelings for Val. Jon isn’t really the type who sleeps with anybody who shows interest in him (ie. Ygritte and Val).
I was also refereincing the Pol!Jon theory we’ve discussed before so I’m sorry if you’re not referencing that here. In the instance Jon and Dany are doing it, I return to my question above.
Sure sure, but what will compel Jon to sleep with Dany, knowing it’s going to cause issues with the North, if it’s not because of significant personal feeling? That’s why Jon keeps sleeping with Ygritte, even when know it’s wrong (as he reflects in the books).
Oh, that is a conflict! But I don’t think it’s an escalation of the internal conflicts Jon is experiencing.
From what I’ve read, love is always part of Jon’s most agonizing struggle, love for the person he must act against in some way. Killing a loved one, which Jon has never had to do (he’s had to accept the possibility of it during the Battle for the Wall but he didn’t have to kill Ygritte by his own hand and he’s still haunted by that, feeling as if he killed her with his own arrow). I think that would be agonizing — more agonizing than killing kin who helped him and slept with him when she becomes a threat to the realm (or killing her saves the realm).
I think love makes this agonizing — especially if it’s a matter of love on both sides :/
Ten Bears,
Yes, that floats on the internet for years now (Adriana will remember since when).
That was a rough outline made to convince his publishers to make a deal with him for publishing the book.
The story has changed significantly.
In the original story, Sansa stayed in KL with Joffrey as a villainess (in this version it was Joffrey losing a hand in battle, not Jamie), while Arya resorted beyond the Wall to Jon with her mother (who is saved from the RW) and probably Tyrion too. In that context there was a love triangle involving Jon-Arya-Tyrion. The age of the characters was pretty much the same, Arya still 10-11 y-o.
The fundamental change from that initial draft is that Sansa does not marry Joffrey, which means that she is not queen, which means that whoever wants the North has to go through her (meaning to marry her) because she is the eldest surviving legitimate child of Ned, at least until Bran returns from the heart tree. This wouldn’t work with Arya, because Arya is too young for a romance, and because, if Sansa is alive, Arya can have no claim to WF -provided of course that Bran is dead, which in the book as it is, he is not.
In the new plan Martin rearranged many of his characters’ arcs, making it much more complicated for the main characters, and I’d say that who Sansa marries is one of the central themes. We are introduced to her as the prince’s betrothed, and the betrothal lasts until the end of ACoK. In the beginning of ASoS, the Tyrells plan to marry her to the heir of Highgarden (Loras is not the heir in the book). Then she is married to Tyrion, and then she is spirited away by LF, who plans to marry her, seemingly with Robert Arryn, then with Harry the Heir. All that is happening for her claim to WF, as Dontos so pointedly tells her (causing a life-changing experience, lol).
As you can see, none of that would have happened had Sansa remained in KL as Joffrey’s betrothed, then wife. All that has to happen for a reason. It has to be brought to fruition.
In the books the only other woman whose marriage is as discussed as Sansa’s, is Daenerys. She marries Drogo early, then she receives a proposal from that idiot in Quarth whose name escapes me now and then in Meereen she marries Hizdar after a lot of debate, rejecting Quentyn’s proposal which came too late, while all along she takes Daario as a lover.
[Cersei’s saved by the bell, lol; the Tyrells reject Tywin’s offer and then Tywin gets murdered so he didn’t hatch anymore wedding plans for his daughter]
So who Sansa and Daenerys end up with, or who do they end up loving, is somehow central to ASoIaF and as you understand it has caused heated debate among the ladies’ fans. This is also the reason why the fandom sees them as rivals for Jon’s heart, who is the central character of the book along with Daenerys and Tyrion.
[and also, what caught my attention some time ago: someone tried to see underneath the black stripes covering Martin’s original ending. If their attempt had any success, it pointed Bran as king at KL. But one has to bear in mind that that was a quite different story and at that point Martin still intended to insert his 5-year gap after the RW, so I’d take that with a grain of salt].
kevin1989,
I swear when curfew is done I’ll get a new nickname: “the Body” 😂
Honestly, my pilates instructor has turned classes into e-classes via messenger. It’s a lot easier to do it every day at home than it is after returning from work! I exercise a lot more now than I did before.
As for drink, once I drank a lot more, but I developed stomach fluid reflux so now I drink very little.
But today I made pizza. It was good! Washed it down with a glass of beer. Yup. 🙄
Efi,
CC: Ten Bears,
2015, I think?
There are also quite a few other big changes from the initial draft to the books:
In the outline —
The five key players are Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya, and Bran.
Ned helps Arya and Catelyn escape.
Sansa marries Joffrey, has his son, and eventually chooses Joffrey over her parents and siblings (which she regrets).
Tyrion befriends Sansa and Arya.
Robb loses in a battle against Jaime and Tyrion, dying in battle.
Tyrion burns Winterfell.
When Winterfell burns, Catelyn and Arya flee to the Wall but Jon and Benjen (still alive) must turn them away, to Jon’s anguish. This causes a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran.
Jon and Arya give into their passion. Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle.
Catelyn and her remaining kids go beyond the Wall, are captured by Mance Rayder, and see the Others. Catelyn is killed by the Others.
Drogo doesn’t want to help the Targaryens re-take the 7K. Viserys keeps pressing his claim, pissing Drogo enough to kill him. This makes Dany very bitter and she eventually kills Drogo to avenge her brother.
I think Martin changed many of the arcs themselves (Catelyn’s, Tyrion’s, Sansa’s, Arya’s, Bran’s). Jaime’s not even with Cersei in this outline or on a quest for redemption, I don’t think. The only mention of Jaime has him standing against Robb alongside Tyrion, who later burns Winterfell, forcing Catelyn, Bran, and Arya to escape beyond the Wall, where Catelyn is the Westerosi who gets a look at the Others and is killed by them.
Also, Martin planned for this to be a trilogy 😉 That’s a BIG change!
I don’t know if this is a central theme of the books (who Sansa and Dany end up with). I think it’s quite a bit more than that — ie. consequences of decisions, the human heart in conflict with itself, dreams turning out to be nightmares in reality, etc. There is a sect of the fandom that sees Sansa as a rival for Jon’s heart but, from what I’ve seen, that’s the Jonsa fandom 😉 Kevin’s already gone over some of the issues (which I share) about their theories.
kevin1989,
Adrianacandle,
• Let me second that. The rampant speculation and theorizing going on 9+ years since the last book was published can get a bit … redundant.
As Kevin wrote:
”For me the whole discussions about the books especially the theories etc that are over-debated in the past is for me not something I really enjoy discussing anymore. For me I wish that the discussion could get another level, with winds out there, with some theories proven right or wrong, with others some new info about that either give the theory more basis or point it to another direction than we initially though of. Especially with asoiaf that has many and many smaller mysteries I want many to be answered. Those mysteries are nice to talk about and get the answer 2 years later, but not 10 years later.”
• Not bashing; just observing and throwing out a suggestion…
Since the Big Kahuna has repeatedly blown his own self-imposed deadlines; has frequently assured the fandom that he’s sequestered himself to write the books; has been attending conventions and publishing volumes about Targaryen lore; and has periodically engaged in self-flagellation and promised to impose self-inflicted punishments if he hasn’t finished TWOW by a certain date(s), e.g., something about a sulphuric lake; and with millions of even the most patient fans like Kevin sharing the belief that “[e]specially with asoiaf that has many…mysteries I want to be answered,” and that [t]hose mysteries are nice to talk about and get the answer 2 years later, but not 10 years later”…
…. Perhaps GRRM ought to consider typing up a 10-20 page summary, even in broad strokes, of how he intends to resolve the mysteries and conclude his characters’ story lines; and place the summary in a time capsule or a safe with a date certain to release it to the public if he has not finished writing the books by that date.
If this doesn’t spur him to crank out the books, at least his long-suffering fans would be spared from endlessly parsing his existing books for clues; positing and rehashing thousands of all possible scenarios; and waiting another decade – if ever – to find out the author’s resolutions.
• There’s a significant and ever-growing subset of the fandom that’s already convinced they’ll never get to read TWOW, let alone ADOS.
There are also lots of GoT show! fans like yours truly who are reluctant to read the first five books, only to be left twisting in the wind [no pun intended] like the existing book readers who’ve been waiting 20? years to find out how the mysteries, riddles, prophecies and storylines of ASOIAF will be resolved and concluded.
Speaking only for myself: the only ASOIAF chapter I’ve read is the “Mercy” TWOW sample chapter that GRRM posted online. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was beautifully written. As an unrepentant Aryaphile, it left me wanting to know what happens next. If GRRM cranked out books that are half as good as that sample chapter I’m sure I’d be content.
Even if TWOW and ADOS aren’t as “perfect” as GRRM wants them to be, I’d take half-assed versions over none at all.
– End Screed –
I should clarify from my April 11, 2020 at 4:45 pm comment:
When I said, “I don’t know if Jon has brought anyone over to his side — he’s made common cause with them and compromises, joined forces against a common foe for the good of all. He’s extended the olive branch to the likes of the Weeper for the sake of peace: “peace for one means peace for all” but still views the Weeper and Rattleshirt as terrible people,” I don’t mean that Jon is pretending to like anyone. Jon seems to be pretty transparent in his feelings.
Just in case anybody who hasn’t read the books got that kind of meaning from my statement.
To add to my answer — I don’t think Jon needs to be in love with Dany but I think deep feeling for Dany needs to be involved for this to be his most agonizing conflict, even if it’s a platonic love.
I think there are many conflicts Jon can experience, yes, but as I said above, when love and significant personal feeling enters into the equation (of any nature), this is what tears Jon up inside and I think this is reflected on three of Jon’s most significant conflicts:
The first: to join Robb and his war or honor his vows to the Watch. Jon nearly deserts for love of Robb and his family until he’s talked into coming back by his friends.
The second: to stay loyal to the Watch or to stay with Ygritte. If Jon didn’t love Ygritte, it wouldn’t have nearly the emotional impact as it did. Jon pushes away the thought that he’s a man of the Night’s Watch because of his love for Ygritte. Of course, Jon still feels like total crap about having to betray the wildlings and people he genuinely likes, he doesn’t look forward to the prospect of having to kill a man he respects (Mance), but Jon’s turmoil is over Ygritte. Ygritte haunts him.
The third: helping Arya over his neutrality. Jon knows why he must stay neutral, why he can’t interfere or it’d invite trouble to the Watch (and that’s what ends up happening). At first, Jon tells himself he must stay neutral and can’t help Arya but he’s haunted by it, anguished over it, resulting in him taking up Melisandre’s offer to send Mance to rescue Arya.
After this point, Jon is no longer in turmoil. He doesn’t anticipate this falling down on the Watch but Jon believes he can have his cake (save Arya, help Alys, help Stannis) and eat it too (prepare the defense of the realms for the war against the Others).
And this turns about to be wrong 😉 Jon sending Mance to save Arya leads to complete and total disaster, putting all of his efforts to achieve a peace and prepare the defense of the realms against the Others at risk.
Again, it doesn’t have to be romantic love with Dany, I don’t think they need to be soulmates, but I think there needs to be a type of love there, a deep feeling — beyond like, respect, knowing she’s his aunt, and that she helped him. Perhaps those things lead to deep feelings but I think significant feeling (of any kind, platonic or romantic) need to be involved — something that makes this the most terrible conflict Jon will have to face and I think it is meant to be the hardest decision he’ll have to make.
Because these inner struggles just seem to be getting harder for Jon.
I’d love that because, if all else fails, we’d at least know his plans. Speaking for myself, that’d give me the opportunity to speculate on how he’d intend to write his future plans — but we’d know what he intended at least.
Adrianacandle,
• Holy sh*t. That original outline bears little resemblance to the story I saw on screen, at least S1 – S4 which I understand tracked the books somewhat faithfully.
• “Jon and Arya give into their passion.”
🤮
”Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle.”
🤬
Yes x_x
I am grateful GRRM made the changes he did — but I think it’d be cool to have Catelyn, of all people, encounter the Others.
Adrianacandle,
Reply, Part 1
Here we are close to 700 comments and 24 days since Samantha’s March 18, 2020 post titled:
“George R.R. Martin is ‘spending lots of time’ in Westeros…”
——————-
(For ease of reference)
Samantha reported:
“I suppose you can find a silver lining in everything, and in the case of COVID-19 shutting down large swaths of the world, it’s that A Song of Ice and Fire author George R.R. Martin is apparently spending a lot of time in Westeros — good news for those of us waiting for The Winds of Winter, perhaps?
Martin posted an update of sorts on his NotABlog on March 17…
****
“Martin also assured readers that — despite being in the “high-risk” category for the virus, given his age — he feels fine and is taking “all sensible precautions,” including self-quarantine. So how is he spending his time? The answer is heartening (in a way) for ASOIAF readers:
“I am off by myself in a remote isolated location, attended by one of my staff, and I’m not going in to town or seeing anyone. Truth be told, I am spending more time in Westeros than in the real world, writing every day. Things are pretty grim in the Seven Kingdoms… but maybe not as grim as they may become here.”
“Spending more time in Westeros than the real world, you say? WRITING EVERY DAY, YOU SAY? We’ve all been fooled before when Martin makes any indication that TWOW is being worked on, but in these uncertain times, we’ll take what we can get to lift our spirits.”
——————————
Ten Bears,
I think this is our longest thread yet? (And I still must retake those photos of my laser work… tonight. Tonight).
And I hope GRRM is working on TWOW.
At the same time, I kind of dread what’s to come in TWOW.
And speaking of winds and winter, guess what the weather is like in Calgary today?
A full, fresh blanket of April snow!
…. 🙁
Efi,
kevin1989,
That sounds INCREDIBLY good 🙁
But I think I’m getting some covid chub myself… so I’ve got to stop relying on Skip the Dishes so much or I might be getting a second or third chin….
Adrianacandle,
Part 2 (continued from 6:09 pm)
In reply to my suggestion that GRRM ought to consider cranking out a 10-20 page summary and placing it in a time capsule, you wrote…
I’d love that because, if all else fails, we’d at least know his plans. Speaking for myself, that’d give me the opportunity to speculate on how he’d intend to write his future plans — but we’d know what he intended at least.
Samantha likely echoed the reaction of lots of fans to GRRM’s 3/17/20 NotABlog update when she wrote: “We’ve all been fooled before when Martin makes any indication that TWOW is being worked on.”
Call me cynical. Just because GRRM is “in a remote isolated location” because of the pandemic and claims he’s “writing every day” doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s actually making significant headway.
What I mean is, this world-altering, once-in-generation global crisis has to be a huge distraction for a socially-conscious, thoughtful person like GRRM. There’s no way he’s
soothed by the empty platitudes spewed by the🍊buffoon and his science-denying minions. George has got to be real worried that with Cousin Orson and Lothar placed in charge of this country’s response, there’s no end in sight. He’s got to be enraged that millions of people are suffering and tens of thousands of his fellow citizens have been and will be dying unnecessarily. He’s got to be frustrated that his isolation will continue indefinitely because of the ongoing dysfunction and obliviousness of the morons in charge of our collective future.
When he writes that “Things are pretty grim in the Seven Kingdoms… but maybe not as grim as they may become here,” I can’t help but think that he is (understandably) distressed by the
prospect that he will spend the next several years of his life in a stranger-than-fiction, dystopian reality. I have no doubt he’s preoccupied with the real world and isn’t concentrating on writing TWOW.
I don’t blame him. Not one bit.
• That’s another reason he ought to memorialize his planned endings for posterity.
Wow, 700 posts!! I think that is a record.
I posted something on the newest thread and realized everyone was over here
Tron79,
Yeah! I think you’re #702.
Adrianacandle,
I think you’re #700. That could be a record.
Even right after GoT episodes there would usually be several successive posts within a few days, so the comments would be distributed among them.
Maybe in a few weeks after I’ve run out of things to do I’ll go back and look. I suspect I’ll have plenty of time on my hands over the next several months of solitude. 😷
Ten Bears,
Unfortunately, I agree with everything you’ve said here (re: GRRM, covid, and TWOW). That’s my fear. I have my hope but I fear what you’ve said here is exactly right.
This isn’t the first time he’s made such promises — I believe those go back to waiting for ADWD, maybe even before.
Hey, you’re right!! I didn’t even realize! (Or I can’t count)
Sigh… yeah. Speaking of that, having plenty of time on our hands and living in isolation over a period of months and months, I’m pretty fearful of that means for my own mind.
Tron79,
Hey! Did you start the third book in the HDM series yet? 😀
Adrianacandle,
”Unfortunately, I agree with everything you’ve said here (re: GRRM, covid, and TWOW). That’s my fear. I have my hope but I fear what you’ve said here is exactly right.
This isn’t the first time he’s made such promises…”
Honestly? Now he has every reason to be distracted.
At the risk of sounding trivial (and relating this to show! canon), for GRRM it’d be like waking up into a nightmare: finding himself in Old Valyria surrounded by greyscale-infected Stone Men.
I really don’t see how enforced seclusion under the present circumstances would be conducive to creative writing.
”Sigh… yeah. Speaking of that, having plenty of time on our hands and living in isolation over a period of months and months, I’m pretty fearful of that means for my own mind.“
Though I try myself to take things one day at a time, I’m kind of fearful too when I think about the months ahead. (I’m going to cover this with spoiler-coding since I don’t want to bum anyone out with my doom and gloom outlook..)
In the meantime, Orange Walder and his damn moron son-in-law are still refusing to listen to scientists, still withholding medical supplies as a means of extortion, still spouting nonsense propaganda about “reopening the economy” in a few weeks, and are now shirking any responsibility for protecting the 320 million Americans let alone the rest of the global population. Protecting the super-rich 1% and the “stock market” is all they seem to care about.
Worst of all, 40% of my countrymen blindly believe the 🍊’s propaganda, reinforced by his unhinged “press conferences” and amplified by his Faux News sycophants. Anybody with real expertise in our government has been fired or forced out and replaced with incompetent toadies and hypocrites who denigrate science, say it’s “just the flu,” or bloviate about Jesus saving us all. (So why bother with testing? 😡)
Unless some miracle cure or treatment is discovered within the next few weeks or months, all of this “physical distancing,” lockdowns and “flattening the curve” will mean is that most of us will eventually get infected. Even healthy people who’ve caught it describe “mild” symptoms as torture.
Either through ignorance or malevolence, the unspoken assumption of Orange Walder and his deluded Kool-Aid drinkers is that sacrificing 2% of the population is a fair trade off to “save the economy.” Folks in GRRM’s demographic (e.g., age and “co-morbidities”) are at greatest risk. Without testing and analysis, who knows what the risk factors are that make the difference between a grueling two-three weeks at home vs. 50% chance of dying on a ventilator?
I really don’t want to have to suffer through infection and a long recovery. Nor do I have the fortitude to endure gasping for air and being hooked up to a ventilator if it turns out I’m one of the unlucky ones who have to be hospitalized. I’ve got a low threshold for pain and discomfort as it is.
I can’t help but wonder: Is rolling the dice and hoping I’m asymptomatic the only way out of this? I’m not sure I’m cut out to deal with the alternative: solitary confinement for the next year to year and a half.
For that matter, the prospect of emerging to a world of people in facemasks staying six feet away is f*cking depressing. No touching. No flirting. No courtship. No kissing. No romance. No intimacy. No socializing. No traveling. No parties. No celebrations. No dining out. No concerts. No reason to doubt that the person standing next to you isn’t a contagious “super-spreader.” No interaction with loved ones except remotely via FaceTime and Skype.
Right now so many people are desperate – out of work and out of money. And that’s not even taking into account that in the near future people who are getting by now start to run out of food and run out of money; when the food supply chain breaks down, then what? It’s terrifying to think about. (Oh, and 🍊Walder is perfectly okay with letting the US Postal Service shut down: another lifeline severed.)
Even if we’re somehow able to contain this first wave, it’s supposed to come back with a vengeance in four or five months.
.
I suppose I should just try to concern myself with today and tomorrow. Thinking any further ahead than that triggers a negative feedback loop. 😳
Tron79,
Maisie picture… because why not?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2a/06/82/2a0682406cf291add1f2790a04c112bd.jpg
Tron79,
For Passover:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUt0Po1UUAAZs6Q?format=jpg&name=small
Tron79,
Last one: Arya in S7e4
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c3/9e/4a/c39e4a1caf6db9cbc774f7d7fd0d8f8c.png
Ten Bears,
Exactly — to all of that :/
It feels we have to drastically change our lifestyles to adapt to this new situation and that’s a big (nearly impossible) ask. People are losing their jobs, they’re stuck together, they’re fighting, they’re running out of funds, things to do, etc.
I miss going to Tim Horton’s in the mornings at 5 AM to get a hot chocolate before the evil sun rises 🙁 I miss going to restaurants period. Even things like having your hair trimmed, getting your eyebrows done, your lashes tinted, going to a party are now things of the past.
January already feels like a completely different world now.
I also agree with your GRRM speculations — I’m afraid that the world he has created has become so complex and vast that it’s now overwhelming (it overwhelms me, at least) that he’ll be doing anything but writing TWOW.
But I wonder maybe I’m putting myself too much into GRRM’s place because when something feels insurmountable to me, I do everything I can to avoid surmounting it.
Like boxes I have yet to unpack from five years ago. Instead of going through them to find my A+ soup pot, I went and bought a mediocre soup pot from Walmart.
Wait, what??
But how does he think people will get stuff while in isolation?
Oh, wait, I just realized Trump is also against self-isolation and lockdown, is that right?
Adrianacandle,
Lol, that first story was too easy; it sounds more like a TV product, soap or sth. I like the changes he made. Now it’s a very interesting book.
Ten Bears,
In his post of the 2nd April, GRRM wrote:
“If there is a silver lining in these clouds, this will give me more time to finish WINDS OF WINTER. I continue to write every day, up here in my mountain fastness.”
How convenient that all events have been cancelled. ConNZ turned to e-event.
All writers are like him. I continue to write my Parisian presentation that will become a publication mid-summer. The lectures have been postponed and I’ll never see Paris in springtime. Carma wants me in Paris solely in winter. So be it.
Sigh.
Ten Bears,
I guess it will be a year, or perhaps a year and a half that people should be extra careful. But without a mask, no matter how careful you are, you can always count on others not being as careful and spreading the virus just because they don’t give a damn.
I think your Orange Walder and his friends should be stoned.
The data about this thing speak about a death rate at a staggering almost 10% world wide. This percentage is so high exactly because countries like the US and Brittain refuse to proceed to general lock down. The disease spreads and in this more people die because the doctors refuse to treat them on account of underlying diseases and/or age.
What these governments are doing is criminal and they should be put behind bars.
The only thing that can stop this virus is isolation for a couple of months. There is no other way.
Testing won’t do it. If the test comes out positive there’s no way of knowing how many people you’ve infected before you are diagnosed, and how many people they will have infected before they are found and isolated.
This is why it was deemed crucial by many countries to proceed to general lock down. If the virus finds no one to infect, it will die out enough so that the vaccine can be found and the doctors will have the time to treat everybody properly.
And to think that all this is happening for money… so that the 1% doesn’t lose its money. It’s tragic, as if the world hasn’t progressed at all. I think that what this crisis has brought out is mostly the futility of all the revolutions and the blood that was shed for creating a better world. What was the point of everything if in the end humanity has fought for money, not for the people?
“We’ve had vicious kings.
And we’ve had idiot kings.
But I don’t know if we’ve ever been cursed with a vicious idiot.”
– Tyrion, S2e6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snJuqvxkxJw
at 0:32
I know we have people of various faiths and none visiting this site so I’ll just wish everyone a happy holiday and at the risk of sounding kike a broken record stay safe and well.
kevin1989,
It’s that season, yes. I’ll finish it in the next few days.
Are the folks around here watching something at the moment, by the way?
Adrianacandle,
I have a friend (not really, but whatever) who gets up at 4 a.m. What does one do so early? How is it do watch daybreak? The only times I’ve seen dawn is when travelling, catching an early plane.
Here I suppose because of the warm climate we live for the night. By the time he gets up I go to sleep. In addition, because of the warm climate, 4-5 a.m is the coldest hour of the day.
Efi,
Same here, but I like the world of ice and fire, and somehow I’m always back for more.
Efi,
Love pizza.
For me the problem with drinking is that one time I can drink a lot and don’t feel anything, and the other time I could be half drunk from even half a glass XD
Unfortunately GRRM is against others finishing his story and getting money of it. Some asked him in the past if the writer of the Expense books may finish his books.
https://winteriscoming.net/2015/12/02/george-r-r-martin-doesnt-see-anyone-else-writing-in-the-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-universe/
I though I also read a while back that he even has it in his will that when he dies, that everything related to AsoIaF, so his outlines that he has on paper, all his little scrabbles etc, his written unpublished pages of the upcoming book to be destroyed.
Maybe there is a chance he will let his wife get some “pension” by letting her release a summary book, or maybe D&D will come out then and state the difference of their versions.
Personally I’m still think GRRM will live a long life and finish his saga and some other books. So I’m not worried about never getting the ending of the saga, but I’m worried that I maybe have lost some interest by then. Personally I hope he waits till releasing winds of winter till he has written half of Dream already, I rather wait 2/3 years more now, and have 2/3 years less between winds and dream.
As for the books. I would say, first read some finished works of other saga’s. If after that you have still that you want to read the books, read the books. For me personally I’m still glad I read them.
Adrianacandle,
Or that he states: Theorist XXXXX was 90% close to what I intended.
Up to comment 800.
Ten Bears,
B-word. (I don’t dare to speak the word myself)
Ten Bears,
Orange Walder should take a look for instance at Canada (even my country should but we still do it better than the US). Canada is one of the countries that has the least amount of infected and death’s per capita (per 1 million citizens) and doesn’t really rise that much, like South Korea, while the US is in the top tier already with the amount of infected and deaths per Capita and it rises very fast. Only the UK seems to be higher and rising faster. So the Blond Walder doesn’t do it that great either. But still Blond Walder at least opened it eyes to what COVID-19 is after he got it himself.
Here it seems the measurements worked. Even the ICU is stable, no more in than go out. And probably this week it will lower.
Adrianacandle,
Efi,
“I think your Orange Walder and his friends should be stoned.”
Orange Walder on weed, I want to see that 😉
But all seriousness, I think leaders like that that are taking it too much with a grain of salt how serious COVID-19 is should show the world that it’s nothing. Put them into a glass room, no doctors nothing only a bed in it and some food for a while. Give them COVID-19 and let them show the world it’s just a flu.
No help, nothing, just like with the normal flu, give them a box of paracetamol and let them go through the virus like a normal flu. And wait how fast they are going to ask for to speak with a doctor. Make sure it is broadcast.
Tiago,
I’m currently watching with my boyfriend: Person of interest (great show, not as great as Fringe but it can be put into the same kind of show as fringe, supernatural etc. But mostly with this show it’s serializes, season 1 has maybe half not main storyline, season 2 only 1/3 filler, and every season less filler than the one before, it’s from Nolan (dark knight, westworld etc). We also watch the last season of Homeland every week, which is amazing the last season. This show shows how to end a show, hope the last 3 episodes will be on par with the first 9 of the season, then Homeland did what many shows failed to do.
For myself, I’m currently re-watching 2 shows. The first is Vikings. My best friend started watching it, some episode we watch together, so the rest I watch alone till we get together. And outlander season 4. When me and my boyfriend finish person of interest there is a chance we are going to watch season 5 of outlander so I though, well lets watch season 4 again. I only skip 1/3 of the season because I really don’t care about the annoying new relationship of the season (Roger and Brienna). And I say the season is much better than.
After that is done, I’m going further with watching Scrubs. A good friend of mine told me that it’s an amazing comedy show, and it is. If you like comedy, watch it.
Efi,
House-chores?
Dame of Mercia,
‘like a broken record’. My mistype was unfortunate above.
Ten Bears:
Grand Maester Pycelle was prescient!
To me, at least, Pycelle was an unsympathetic character, and having him nail it like that — recall the Small Council members don’t know anything about Dany’s wedding gift of dragon’s eggs — just makes it really delicious. Game of Thrones does this in a bigger way with Joffrey, having him consistently state the *only* good ideas about governance we ever hear on Westeros, and having his smug older relatives smack him down every time he does so. (Tywin sneeringly dismisses the very idea dragons can still be dangerous.)
Julian Fellowes, in his commentary track on the DVD edition of Gosford Park, notes how writers can fall into the trap of having sympathetic characters always say things which turn out to be correct, and having unsympathetic characters always be wrong. In Game of Thrones, almost everything Lord Peytr Baelish says to Robyn Arryn turns out to be true — even though Baelish is saying it for his own selfish reasons. GRRM likes his audience to think, and the television adaptation of his story was faithful to his intent.
Happy Easter to those who celebrate it! 🙂
Efi,
I like the changes he made too!
Voluntarily? Oh man! XD Yes, that’s the only time I see dawn too — if I’m traveling, waking up to catch a plane, or if I’m going to sleep 😉
My mum gets up at 5 AM every morning, without fail, and has since 1977 to run for 45 minutes. Even when she was sick, pregnant, living in a 20-story apartment, it was blizzarding outside, Christmas, she finds a way to run… I just don’t get it! Running or waking up! I never do either voluntarily 😉
Speaking of the coldest hour of the day, it’s such a nice white Easter morning here!
There is a joke about Calgary’s weather but I don’t think it’s really a joke because it’s too true:
Winter
Fool’s spring
Second winter
Spring of deception
Third winter (we are here)
Mud season
Actual spring
Summer
False fall
Second summer (1 week)
Actual fall (2 weeks)
Winter
Unfortunately…. yeah :/ Elections are this fall in the US, right? I hope things change because Trump has been…
kevin1989,
Right — and an idle mind (while not good for anyone) combined with being stuck at home is a pretty dangerous thing for some who are suffering from certain types of mental health problems. Therapy through a tablet is different from therapy in person, I agree. There’s so much about being in the same place physically with another that video chat can’t recreate, even if it’s just sharing a cup of tea. I don’t know what it is — it’s something about sharing the same physical experience together and breathing the same air, looking at the same things, even if it’s just sitting down at the same table.
kevin1989,
God, that is such a good idea!
A reality show with the big ones struggling through the disease with nothing but paracetamol and a warm soup, and maybe a steamy bath. Like Big Brother.
Apparently though Bo-Jo took the best treatment possible and now he’s home recovering, still having the same ideas about the virus.
Meanwhile, in that same country…
“Hello, I have high fever”
“how much is your fever, madam?”
Patient gasping for air: “40 degrees C; it hasn’t dropped for three days no matter what I do”
“Alright, hang in there, call us again tomorrow”
Patient, hardly breathing: “If I’m still alive and my brain hasn’t roasted…”
Adrianacandle,
You really have a “Mud season”? What’s that like?
I have a friend who lives in Calgary, it’s a few years now. He had serious problems in Canada. I remember him telling me that the climate being so dry (I think he lived in Toronto before that) he was constantly coughing, because his throat was too dry too. A doctor told him that it was because he came from a country syrrounded by the sea, so our climate is much more moist. The problem was apparently solved when he moved to Calgary for reasons that had nothing to do with his health (his wife got a new job).
And yes, the other one does that voluntarily, I suppose it suits him better with his job, he needs to make the most of his day (he has an astounding career) and, like your mother, perhaps he runs in the morning (I didn’t ask though).
I just can’t understand how is it to miss the night, although the night is rather food for the soul, since we’re out having fun. I used to work in the night but in the past few years this habit subsided. I can’t work that much anymore.
kevin1989,
“Homeland”? I saw parts of the first season… However, I absolutely adore Claire Danes. She was amazing in Romeo + Juliet (1996). Everyone else read their lines as if they were in a high school English class. She breathed life into Shakespeare’s words.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yClVlc_niac
————
Efi,
Terrible! Too warm to wear winter boots, too muddy to wear regular shoes! It’s when all the snow starts to melt and everything that’s not concrete becomes mud T____T
Yes, Calgary is very very dry and Toronto is quite humid (wet hot heat in summers, moisture freezing to ice on your skin in winters). I remember when, while I was living in Toronto during my earlier childhood (I later went back in my early 20s for grad school to attend York — dad said I was just like a salmon, returning to the place where I was spawned, which – EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW), I’d visit Calgary and get nose bleeds and terrible terrible sore throats because the air here is so dry.
It was the same for a friend who was visiting from Pensacola, FL. She got wicked nosebleeds in Calgary because Florida is so humid (as Ten Bears would know!). When I visited her in Pensacola, I remember getting off the plane and it felt like I was breathing in water because I had lived in Calgary for so long at that point (before moving to Toronto). My hair spazzed out but my skin was so conditioned! All the time!
When I travelled from Toronto to the Netherlands to live for three months for my internship, the moisture difference didn’t seem nearly so extreme as it did when travelling from Calgary to Pensacola, FL.
Though neighbouring provinces, the climates of British Columbia and Alberta (the province where Calgary is located) are so different and I think that’s because of the rain shadow over the Rocky Mountains that divide the provinces. As air moves from the lush BC east to very dry Alberta, the moisture is sucked out of the air and creates a rain shadow, resulting in very dry air blowing downward on the Alberta side of the Rockies. So we have a very dry flat landscape as a result 😉
Very dry, very flat 🙁
I hope your friend is doing well here!
They do say that about people who rise early tend to be very productive….!
But yes, I also like the night. No sun. I like the night for work 🙂 But my schedule is all messed up and now I’m up during the day 🙁 I’m hoping to return to nights again.
However, I understand that if the habit subsides and you work during the day as opposed to the night, it gets hard to reverse that again.
I love Claire Danes. She was awesome in Romeo + Juliet. Have you ever seen My So Called Life (1994)? It was a limited series and Danes was only 15 but she was excellent. That was a great series.
Adrianacandle,
Efi,
True, luckily here we take it serious, but I only think the measurements were too soft.
Try to look further, the whole show is amazing. And the last season just brilliant. Nothing is rushed, just perfect. The story of all the seasons is just amazing.
Happy Easter, Happy Passover, Happy Whatever is going on for you!
I am rather enjoying my lock-down days. I wake up, I putter about and the day ends. Same next day.
It is amazing the difference in outcomes for different countries. The places that moved quickly have done best in terms of reduced deaths.
New Zealand has one dead. Hong Kong with 8 million people has 4 dead and Taiwan with 22 million has 5 dead. And so on.
In much of Europe and the US, the action was so late that the suffering has been legendary.
This is about the weak leadership at all levels AND also about the public that refused to stay indoors/distance until the deaths started piling up. There is no point in blaming others when it is clear that places that reacted in a vigourous and timely manner were able to keep citizens safe.
In much of Europe and the US, the action was so late that the suffering has been legendary.
Please spare us your hyperbole. A hundred years ago, the Spanish Flu killed more persons than WWI, “The Great War,” had. Thankfully, our standards now are higher, and we now value human life more. We don’t simply accept death on that level anymore.
And yes, islands — especially remote islands — can control such situations better than can large continents. That’s not big news.
Mango,
Agree, we can blame China for the origin of the virus (which I think they should, I also read that the wet markets are open again haven’t they learn anything yet). But we had months to prepare. Back in December all countries were like it’s just a flu, it stay in china etc. Well it did not. Then it got to other countries and still no measurements were taken, still planes flew to other countries. Even here in the Netherlands, when shit already hit the fan in Italy and not yet here, the goverment didn’t act and though it would stay there. Even when we had cases the opposition and even annoying for me it was the extreme right wing opposition which I’m not a big fan of, they were the ones that hammered the coalition to take action. Then 2 days later they did measurements. Luckily now they are very strict on the measurements and they listen to the RIVM.
And about the lockdown here, well I liked it the first 2 weeks. After that I started to hate it even more every day. I dislike not getting contact that often as I want with friends, colleagues, family etc And I need my week filled in to function better. Without it I fall into the stay up late/wake up late rhythm and I’m trying not to fall into depression again. But probably it will in the end be ok.
The dutch news outlet showed that the vaccine will be faster here than though initially, they are working around the clock. Estimate is December now (instead of 2/3 years). I hope this is really the estimate now and not “ease the minds of the public” and that we get in December like sorry a couple of more months.
1) Legendary depends on each individual, I suppose. Legends tend to be generational. I am not ancient enough to have experienced the Spanish flu as a personal experience and am happy to defer to people who had vivid memories of it.
As for legendary for this generation – ask the folks in Lombardy and New York. I am sure the Bubonic plague and AIDS are also legendary for the generation that these most affected. I have strong memories of AIDS but know that my younger kin rarely thinks of it.
New York has more COVID deaths than Sept 11. The USA lost about 60,000 persons in the Vietnam War over many years and has lost more than 20,000 already in a month of Covid.
2) On geography: Hong Kong SAR includes Hong Kong island (and Lantau island and perhaps over 100 other islands) but the largest part of Hong Kong is on the same landmass as China. Hong Kong the SAR is not an island. It is not remote.
3) South Korea has only 200 dead and it is not an island. (And Korea did not end flights between China and Korea either.) It simply managed the outbreak better. In terms of death rate, Germany is also not doing badly so far.
kevin1989,
I agree with you on many points.
Closure of wet markets is tricky. Wet markets sell perishable goods and are essential to the global food supply. Without them, you impoverish small farmers and could trigger starvation across the world. Every country has wet markets – even the USA. Fulton Fishmarket is NYC is a wet market. Farmers’ markets are wet markets. Every market that sells fresh fruit and vegetables is a wet market. I agree that there may be a more refined discussion of what can be sold in a wet market.
Some actions can be taken now based on preliminary information. But, we need more on the source and the path of evolution. AIDS was blamed on the gay community when the epidemic started in 1981 in the United States. After research, it is believed to have jumped from monkey to man from back in 1920- 1930 in Africa. The epidemic started in the USA but the seeds were planted 50 years before the actual outbreak.
Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,
In your opinion, is it alright for doctors to apply “war medicine” for dealing with the patients of Covid19?
Reports (from people working within, doctors in particular) say that they do.
This means that people with underlying diseases and the old are left out of ICUs even if they need them, because there’s always someone who is healthier and younger for becoming ICU candidate.
In other words, doctors in the USA, Italy, and Spain, and without doubt many more countries
Decide who lives and who dies
Which is what doctors do during a war.
Do you think it’s normal? After all, as you pointed out, this is not WWI, or WWII for that matter.
If you let people die just because some imbecile at the other side of the world has decided that a lockdown is not the recommended way of action how much does that prove that we “value” human life?
I’m afraid this doesn’t bode well for our world.
Our humanity and our value for human life can only be judged by whom do we protect. If we don’t protect the weak, the sick, the children, the old, the sensitive groups in general, what does that say about us?
And Vietnam, has zero deaths with less than 300 reported sick. Vietnam shares a border with China. Not an island either!
Mango,
I did now about the monkey of AIDS but not about that it started in the USA.
That’s true, but I meant more the wet markets that also sell bats etc, they are already selling bats again.
Efi,
”If you let people die just because some imbecile at the other side of the world has decided that a lockdown is not the recommended way of action how much does that prove that we “value” human life?
I’m afraid this doesn’t bode well for our world.”
—————
“Officials on Council to Re-Open America”
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVgRCSsWkAEpOs-?format=jpg&name=large
This is the Small Council? This is who’s advising Orange Walder how and when to “re-open America”?
Not a single doctor or scientist.
Instead…. Jared “Cousin Orson” Kushner? Ivanka “KremlinBarbie” Trump? Wilbur “Wilbur” Ross? Mark “Mord” Meadows? Steven “Meryn” Mnuchin? Larry “Kraznys” Kudlow?
Robert “Lothar” Lighthizer?
The Long Night is coming. And the dead come with it.
Thank You, Efi!
It is said, that doctors (not only) in my country are to prepare themselfs for triage, there are countries (not only) in Europe, that practise it, because they have no other chance. Not enough ICUs…
It’s capitalism all over the world, that people are only worth something, anything, if they generate more and more money, but if they don’t and only cost money (like the old, the weak, the sick, the sensitive…) –
kevin1989,
I agree that everyone should stay clear of eating bats.
They may be tasty or traditional but they seem to host a lively bunch of viruses ready to leap into mankind and murder us all.
Bats are eaten in several countries and for thousands of years but these days it seems positively hazardous. China is not even the main offender in bat consumption. Bats are mammals and I speculate that it is seen in some countries like a “flying rabbit”. Perhaps climate change has made the bat viruses more agile..or something like that. It should definitely be avoided!
I think China has banned bats (and a list of other wildlife) again and has all sorts of warnings that people should not “recklessly eat wild animals”. But 1.5 billion dinner plates is a lot to police and some people will not be deterred!
Some people in the USA hunt and eat things like raccoons – I do not understand that either. Although in fairness, I do not think any viruses have sprung out of a raccoon as yet.
Ten Bears,
Dat Council.
Ugh!
Mango,
Unfortunately I’m no bat expert. So I can’t say why they carry viruses that easily. But I think it’s more too do with their physiology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat-borne_virus
It seems that bat’s have a great immune-system. So they can carry lot’s of deceases without getting ill, but they can transfer it to other species.
Personally I think with these information that we have about bat’s we should just leave them alone.
I also like fruit bats. How they eat pieces of fruits.
As for raccoons, yes I don’t get it either.
Mango,
JFC! Bats. 🦇🦇🦇 Monkeys. 🐒 🦥. Raccoons.
Turtles. 🐢Pangolins.
If there were grumpkins and snarks I’d bet people would think it’s a good idea to eat them raw too. 🤮
———-
(from S1e2):
Jon Snow: “The Night’s Watch protects the realm from…”
Tyrion: “Yes yes, against grumpkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. You’re a smart boy. You don’t believe that nonsense…”
Mango,
(Continued from 8:14 pm)
Pangolins?
https://www.sciencealert.com/coronavirus-discovery-in-pangolins-shows-why-wildlife-markets-need-better-regulations
———
Picture of a pangolin:
https://scx1.b-cdn.net/csz/news/800/2020/studyshowspa.jpg
kevin1989,
”Unfortunately I’m no bat expert.“
But…but Kevin! I thought you were Batman!
(I’ll see myself out…)
And of course today my FaceBook “memory” from 1 year ago is my bat Sparky. Bats are awesome. People suck. The blame for this pandemic is solely on people.
(*Sees self back in after 8:18 pm exit*)
Taking a break from the real world…
Here’s an Arya photo…
https://ewedit.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/got_mw_8489349399034903443.jpg?w=768
Yes. Yes they do and yes it is.
https://faceswaponline.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WhiteWalkerTrump-af9d2f8bc836b001890f291bb7822d10.jpg
Sub-Thread: Six Degrees of Game of Thrones
(1) While the YouTube link is still good, I wanted to (again) recommend the movie “Hear My Song“ (1991) to anyone who hasn’t seen it. It’s almost impossible to find on streaming services or on cable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO4rjO4Vl-g
It co-stars Tara Fitzgerald in her first film role. She first appears at 3:55 of the movie, and is serenaded by the protagonist “Mickey” at 7:00 – 8:29.
(to be cont. in comment #2…)
(2) For reference, here’s Tara Fitzgerald as Selyse Baratheon on Game of Thrones…
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/6/65/SelyseS05E05.png/revision/latest?cb=20150515051443
Ten Bears,
(3) …and here’s a still photo of Tara Fitzgerald as Nancy in “Hear My Song” from the scene in which she’s being serenaded, as referenced in my 8:50 pm comment #1.
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/BKD2YW/hear-my-song-1991-tara-fitzgerald-hmsg-058-BKD2YW.jpg
Ugh, I long for the days when I used to be able to come here as one of the few places safe from the constant stream of American politics. Like our own Prime Twerpister isn’t bad enough when he goes off a careful script, or tells everyone to isolate and protect others over Easter, then swans off out of province to his little chalet for the weekend.
They’re all idiots and I’m sick of hearing about them.
First spring without a new season to get excited about. ☹
(4) Other commenters have recommended the movie “Brassed Off” (1996), which also co-starred Tara Fitzgerald. I’ve heard about. I’ve never seen it.
I searched for “Brassed Off” on YouTube. A whole bunch of clips of “Danny’s Speech” came up. Curious, I clicked on one. [Link below]. While Tara Fitzgerald appears in the clip, “Danny” is played by Pete Postlethwaite (1946 – 2011) who delivers an impassioned speech, apparently after a brass band competition.
Brassed Off (1996) – Danny’s Speech (Pete Postlethwaite)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKx3MUqzCcQ
I recognized Pete Postlethwaite from scores of films, including “Inception” and “Romeo + Juliet.” He was also in “The Constant Gardener,” recommended by many commenters.
Anyway, although I’ve never seen “Brassed Off,” as I was watching that clip of his speech, his voice and words sounded awfully familiar when (at 0:24) he says something like: “I thought that music mattered. It doesn’t bollocks. Not compared to what people matter.”
(cont. in #5 to follow)
Ten Bears,
(5) Slight Detour…
I realized Pete Postlethwaite’s voice and words sounded familiar because they were sampled at the beginning of the song “Tubthumping” (I Get Knocked Down) by Chumbawamba.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW5oTzftgjY
The snippet of Pete Postlethwaite’s speech from “Brassed Off” is at 0:15.
(cont. in #6 to follow)
Ten Bears,
(6) Veering back to Game of Thrones:
Pete Postlethwaite’s son is Billy Postlethwaite. He’s the tall dark-haired Lannister soldier in the scene with Arya in S7e1, e.g. at 3:09 and at 3:40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCuog8UqXl0
at 3:09
Soldier tells Arya his wife has given birth while he’s been away, and that he hopes it’s a girl because: “Boys just go off to fight in someone else’s wars.”
at 3:40
Soldier: “So why’s a nice girl on her own heading to King’s Landing?”
Arya: “I’m going to kill the Queen.”
Ten Bears,
(7 – End)
All of which once again demonstrates the ancient adage:
“All Roads Lead to Arya.”
Q.E.D.
🗡👸🏻
Pigeon,
”Ugh, I long for the days when I used to be able to come here as one of the few places safe from the constant stream of American politics.
….
They’re all idiots and I’m sick of hearing about them.“
You’re right. I apologize. This place should be a refuge from “the constant stream” of U.S. politics.
From now on I’m going to try to refrain from political discussions, or at least cover such references with spoiler coding.
I’m sure I’d seen Claire Danes in “My So-Called Life.” It was so long ago that I really have no specific recollection of that show, other than that the young actress in it, Claire Danes, was phenomenal.
If “My So-Called Life” aired in 1994 (when Claire Danes was 15 !), that would explain why I would have wanted to see her two years later in “Romeo + Juliet” (1996).
Olivia Hussey had already broken my heart as Juliet in Franco Zeffirelli’s “Romeo and Juliet” (1968). I would not have watched Baz Luhrman’s modernized, 1996 version if it weren’t for Clare Danes. (Sorry Leonardo D. fans. Though he was a cute Romeo, he couldn’t hold a candle to his leading lady.)
Eh, it’s alright. It’s inescapable at this point, I’ll just go join Rory on his boat in the waters of Scotland. 🤪
I like Claire Danes, but I watched MSCL for Jared Leto. Haha. Olivia Hussey was the first person to teach me what a “girl crush” was. Ridiculously gorgeous. Leonard Whiting was a cutie, but dang.
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/24600000/Leonard-Whiting-Olivia-Hussey-1968-romeo-and-juliet-by-franco-zeffirelli-24649132-540-720.jpg
Ten Bears,
Eh, it’s alright. It’s inescapable at this point, I’ll just go join Rory on his boat in the waters of Scotland. 🤪
Ten Bears,
I like Claire Danes, but I watched MSCL for Jared Leto. Haha. Olivia Hussey was the first person to teach me what a “girl crush” was. Ridiculously gorgeous. Leonard Whiting was a cutie, but dang.
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/24600000/Leonard-Whiting-Olivia-Hussey-1968-romeo-and-juliet-by-franco-zeffirelli-24649132-540-720.jpg
I wonder if he even knows what’s been going on back on land.
(“What the f*ck’s a Corona?”)
“Isn’t that a song?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbr60I0u2Ng
(I am trying to complete the laser projects to photograph as completed projects instead of just taking pictures of them in pieces per my original plan. I have been strictly confined to my house now — can’t even go for a walk to the end of my own driveway now, much less to the grocery store. I have 3/5 covid symptoms and I’m awaiting testing, I was referred for that tonight -_-)
Adrianacandle,
I love that freakin song so much.
Also, I am not Ten Bears, alas, but I am sending you the best wishes ever! ❤ Please be kind to yourself, I really hope it is a “normal” bug (not that I want you to have that either.) Do you have anyone close who can drop food etc off for you?
Thank you, Pigeon! 💕And no need to worry about me, I’m covered! My house is well-stocked and my parents are nearby! It just feels like a nasty cold which started up this week-end! I thought I’d call Health Link to double check but they put me on the list for testing and confined me indoors. But I’ve got everything I need to survive in here for a month! 🙂 My mum kept putting stuff in the freezer…
In the meantime, I’ll work on finishing my projects, photographing those, and figuring out the website. The pictures didn’t look quite right when I photographed everything in pieces so I think I’ll varnish, glue, and take my third attempt at photographing everything. I think the photos will make more visual sense when they are of completed pieces rather than in pieces.
But I bought a WordPress template and everything! Learning how this one works and how to modify it to get what I want it do :)!
Adrianacandle,
Oh, I’m glad you’re well set – Saskatoon way be a few hours away, but I’m never asleep until at least 4AM, so always happy to arrange anything online or just send annoying funny memes until you forget about what ails ya. 😉🤪 It sounds like you’ve got it all in hand. 😊
And I’d love to see some photos when you’re happy with it your project! I love how many areas of interest you have. My ex-boyfriend’s dad had/has a keen interest in everything and the skill to just pick it up. He’s done everything from master printmaking and inventing a waterless lithography process, to creating beautifully painted and lacquered wooden pens, to jewelry design and winning the deBeers Diamond award, painting, sculpting, new forms of soldiering and on and on. He’s a marvel and his basement is not only completely overwhelmed with STUFF, but areas of all of those different talents. The first thing you’re greeted by is a massive Viking broadsword and samurai sword (both authentic, and somehow shipped back here BY POST when he found them in an antique shop overseas in the 60s.) My favourite though, is how he and the whole family helped my ex create his anniversary present to me – fully operational, to scale Martians from Sesame Street. Yip yip yip yip….
Well that didn’t go off a tangent or anything. I just read about the different kinds of art that you delve into, and it makes me think of people like him who are multitalented. I admire it. 😊
Fully agree with you that Bat consumption is not the only way these viruses can occur, I think Swine Flu came from the US and was linked to their low agricultural standards. I would never eat a bat myself but it’s clear to me that this virus could have come pretty much anywhere and is ultimately a natural phenomenon that we all need to anticipate as a risk in future.
Pigeon,
Thank-you!! Oh, that’d be a big help, especially because not many people are awake and online at this time! And we have each other’s emails! Is it okay if a shoot you an email when the need arises? (And I’d like to extend the offer from my end too! I’ve been watching a lot of YouTubers lately, like jacksfilms!)
Oh wow 😮Your ex-boyfriend’s dad is incredible. Just one of those areas is impressive but he’s inventing new printing making processes even, developing new forms of soldering, winning awards — and that’s still not the end of his accomplishments!
So when you say he made wooden pens, did he wood-turn those on a lathe as well? Because wow o___o
And you have your very own Martians! ;;;
But really, that all sounds beyond incredible. Some people are just like that — they master everything they do! XD It’s awesome to watch them work and see what they create!
Adrianacandle,
That’s bad to hear. I wish you a speedy recovery from your symptoms. Stay safe. By the way, is covid-19 hitting hard Alberta?
That’s bad to hear. I wish you a speedy recovery from your symptoms. Stay safe. By the way, is covid-19 hitting hard Alberta?
Of course you can. 😊 Yes I am down the YouTube rabbit hole as well, aside from my bedtime creepypasta stories. 😄
He does wood-turn them, and got interested in the maki-e style so….just started doing it. They looked incredible to me, but course he wasn’t entirely satisfied with them. You know, because it’s not like traditional artists take weeks if not months to make those pens. 😳
The Yip Yips have a wooden stand, and when I was taking them home I had it in the passenger seat facing out the window. Pulled up to a stop sign, and some cool kid came up alongside, stereo blasting the bass, seats lowered…then he looked over and was faced with Bob and Joe Martian googly eyed and agape, staring at him. I like to imagine that their antennae moved slightly with the deceleration of my car. It was one of the best expressions I have ever seen from someone at a stop sign.
Thank-you, Tiago!
I think it’s going okay in Alberta (1,732 confirmed cases in Alberta, 24,786 in Canada). Reports say that testing has been extensive here and it was announced yesterday that testing will be extended to those who exhibit 2+ symptoms of covid-19 so numbers of confirmed cases will rise as a result but hopefully, this will help the curve start to flatten.
Pigeon,
Ooooh, I love creepypasta stories!!
Have you ever seen Don’t Hug Me I’m Scared? Super well done, super unsettling, but any nausea or feelings of weirdness you experience upon completing the 6-episode run can be relieved by The Film Theorists’ analysis — because it explains a lot!
Episode 5 is the worst (but the song is really catchy).
Oh, not at all!! ;D
Those must be so beautiful though. I’ve seen people at the makerspace wood-turn pens and they are gorgeous. All those beautiful, exotic woods like rosewood, lacewood, zebra wood….
LOL!!!
cos alpha,
If you’re a doctor, let me just thank you for existing.
If a lock down is not applied, the disease spreads very easily very quickly, the system gets stuffed and triage begins.
Hang in there. Even so, it will pass.
In my country strict measures have been taken since the 1st of March. We’re in the 3d week of lock down, 6th week of the measures.
We have 100 dead, another hundred are being hospitalized, and about 2000 people who tested positive. The number of people in ICUs has started to decrease as of this week.
If we hadn’t taken the measures, we’d be like Italy.
The virus was imported when some clothing merchants went to Milan to follow the new collections in January-February.
Our chief epidemiologist is a very serious man, godly I’d say. He’s figured at the front pages of the greatest magazines in the past few weeks. Even more surprising, our government proved far too serious also and took him at his word.
The problem is, with those countries not taking any measures to contain the virus, it will go on spreading all over the world, now that the tourist season has begun.
My country is a small one that takes twice the number of its population each year. We’re talking about 20 million tourists.
Even if that number falls to half, that would mean that 10 million tourists will enter the country in the summer. If those tourists carry the virus, it will spread again.
So no matter what we do, I don’t think it will be over before the vaccine comes out, but perhaps our health care system will take the pressure also in the summer.
Ten Bears,
I loved that movie!
I liked them both.
Sorry if I loved LDC more!
Ten Bears,
Corona Virus. Covid19 belongs to the family of corona viruses.
Corona means “crown”.
It takes its name from its spikes (the “spikes” are protein).
Adrianacandle,
Get better soon! Lots of hots, soups, teas, whatever you can.
It will pass!
I don’t think you have covid. People who go out at 5 a.m. can catch cold, you know. Especially with a fresh layer of snow. And especially with that weird Calgary weather!
In Portugal, we have 16.934 confirmed cases (9.984 in my region, the North). The numbers are growing between 5% to 10% a day by now. The amount of testing is rising too. The main problem is the care homes: there’s a lot of elderly people and social workers already infected. It’s certain that the lockdown will continue until the end of April.
Only on date night Ten Bears 😉
Yes they are (both human and bats you are right). Most bats eat either fruits or bugs like mosquito’s they are really handy creatures. And they are very discrete so you don’t know they are doing that far us. More food for them, less itchy arms for us.
Night Trump, creating tremendous jobs.
Adrianacandle,
Hope the results are negative.I hope you don’t have it.
Jon Snowed,
Agree.
“ Think about it. We could do whatever we like wherever we go. These are the king’s colors. No one’s standing in his way now. Which means no one’s standing in ours.”
“F*ck the king.”
Olivia Hussey had me bawling at the end of that movie (Romeo and Juliet (1968)). Luckily nobody saw me sobbing…
Her daughter India Eisley was my #1 fancasting choice to play another star-crossed lover, Lyanna Stark.
There’s a family of bats that’s built its nest somewhere at the building next to mine.
In the summer when I sit outside on my balcony, they start flying at dusk…
All the other birds sleep, but they fly.
They have a weird sort of flying as if they don’t know where to go exactly, but sometimes you understand they hunt for bugs and night butterflies. They never fly too far though.
Ten Bears,
Olivia Hussey’s daughter, India Eisley:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/BvsAAOSwHnFVxqof/s-l300.jpg
——-
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a3/59/69/a3596936e24b61fd8c129ca34f6240f5.jpg
Ten Bears,
Olivia Hussey in Romeo and Juliet (1968)
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-r9CbRQeIUbg/Tx9ylhm-fMI/AAAAAAAA-8c/5evxDeM6O3o/s400/Olivia_Husseyf.jpg
——-
💔 😢
This is… poetry.
I really liked it as well.
Thanks, Efi! And I think you are right, I think it’s just a springtime cold or a cold from our strange third winter!
I also agree with the loveliness of your bat post!
Oh man, I hope things start getting better for you soon. Yes, care homes here have been suffering, which makes me very afraid from my 92-year old grandparents.
The chief medical officer of health here said that numbers of confirmed cases will rise as testing expands because they’ll be uncovering more cases but I’m hoping as a result, the number of deaths will go down and recoveries will go up because they’ll be able to take measures for confirmed cases.
Yes, I think lockdown will continue at least through April. I fear it’ll be longer.
kevin1989,
Thanks, Kevin!
(And as of this post, we’re also three posts away from 800!)
Efi,
That sounds amazing 😀
Adrianacandle,
And now 2. Who will be the winner this time? 😀
Not me.
Me?
Yeah!!!! It is me! It’s horribly late here, I’m now going to bed, lol.
Efi,
Congratulations, #800!
Ten Bears,
One of four (three) choices:
“I don’t want it!”
“I don’t want it, I told you!”
“I am not a king”.
“Beyond the Wall? Maybe?”
Efi,
Yes you! #800! Congratulations!
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GleamingBeneficialEagle-size_restricted.gif
———
Or maybe a fifth choice?
A crown for a king.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akl6OK2HUNA
s1e6 “A Golden Crown”👑
at 1:26
🧝🏻♀️ “You shall have a golden crown that men shall tremble to behold.”
🧝🏻”Well that was all I wanted.”
—-
at 3:07
KD: “A crown for a king…”
🧝🏻: 😳🥵🤯🤯🤯🤯
Efi,
Efi:
About your “bat post,” above, reprinted below:
I took the liberty of changing the line spacing a bit to make it look more like a printed poem. Because that’s what it sounded like. It’s really good. You ought to publish it. Definitely save it. And maybe title it?
———-
[Untitled]
There’s a family of bats that’s built its nest somewhere at the building next to mine.
In the summer when I sit outside on my balcony, they start flying at dusk…
All the other birds sleep, but they fly.
They have a weird sort of flying as if they don’t know where to go exactly, but sometimes you understand they hunt for bugs and night butterflies.
They never fly too far though.
– by Efi April 14, 2020 10:41 am
Oh, all these comments about my bat post make me feel ashamed. 😊
Thank you all!
It really wasn’t written with the purpose to be beautiful or sth, it just came out like that.
I’m glad you liked it.
Ten Bears,
2nd edition
———-
There’s a family of bats that’s built its nest somewhere at the building next to mine.
In the summer when I sit outside on my balcony, they start flying at dusk…
All the other birds sleep, but they fly.
They have a weird sort of flying as if they don’t know where to go exactly, but sometimes you understand they hunt for bugs and night butterflies.
Sometimes you can see the hunt; you can see the prey and the hunter.
They never fly too far though.
They fly around the street light.
But it’s not them, it’s the bugs and butterflies drawn to the light.
My bats like the shade; they like the dark.
Sometimes they stray farther in the night.
Yet they always return to the light
And to the shade behind it.
Ten Bears,
And:
“Just now kings are dying like flies”
…..
“I am the king!”
Efi,
…and
S3e3
Hot Pie: “My brother ain’t no king.
I’m not a Stark of Winterhell.”
Arya: “Winterfell.”
Hot Pie: “You sure?”
Arya: “I’m sure.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoYYK7nPAmc
——-
Efi,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRF6SXHFDNw
(Maisie Williams interview – mocking Joffrey’s “I am the king!” boast)
Adrianacandle,
I have a friend (not really, but whatever) who gets up at 4 a.m. What does one do so early?
Ha, I have been a morning lark since I could remember. Because my parents had to leave at 6am to get the deli going, I got used to it, but had to learn on the weekends not to bother them that early! I still love waking up early, before the world has had a chance to start up with hussle and bussle. Love sunrises, walks on quiet mornings. I do my best work in the morning, once 2 pm rolls around Im winding down and ready for bed at about 9. It works for me, anyway