Game of Thrones takes home 10 Creative Arts Emmys for season 8!

314 Comments

1. #ForTheThrone

   Season 8 was brilliant from beginning to end. They deserved all of these and then some.

2. All well deserved, and there’s more to come! The Game of Thrones final season victory tour is full steam ahead, and I’m loving it!

3. Im not surprised, but still thrilled that casting, title design, music, costumes, special effects, editing and so much more all were recognized as the best!!! It will be interesting to see what happens next week; hoping for some acting awards, not so sure about writing or directing. We shall see. (oh btw Hodor)

4. Nina, QUEEN!!!! Ramin, Rowley, Deb, Michele….congrats to everyone!!!! Not sure if I’m more annoyed that Carice didn’t win, or that it went to the vastly overrated THT. 🙄🙄🙄 Still, I do like Cherry Jones. Great to see the talent who showed up to represent! 😊❤

5. Looks like this shows that GoT has wide support at the Emmys, might bode well for next weekend!

6. Don’t get me wrong Chernobyl is very well produced. But the scale and quality of the production design on season 8 is absolutely incredible and unlike anything else seen on TV. The Emmys should be ashamed of themselves!

7. IN NINA GOLD WE TRUST!

   You deserve it more than anyone! Thank you, THANK YOU for the hard work you did for 8 seasons to somehow find the most adorable, incredible, and ravishing cast a book fan could ask for!!

8. Wow, congratulations to GOT, it thoroughly deserved these awards. I would have gone mad if they had lost in the music and costume categories.

9. What? I cant’ believe they dind’t get the Production Design award for “The Bells”… I mean, have the academy seen the incredible work that she and her crew made with the King’s Landing set? They basically recreated an entire street which seemed so real and detailed, not to mention the huge staircase for the Clagane’s Bowl and the city gates that got destroyed by Drogon. Really, that’s quite a shame they’ve not been prized for what they’re able to do in that episode 🙁

10. Shame GoT never won cinematography

11. Congratulations GoT crew! Much deserved!

12. Yay! Well done! ☺️

    Got season 8 was brilliant! At least When it comes to the production design, casting, costuming, CGI… basically all the technical bits (and also the acting knocked out of the water)… not so much when it comes to the writing though.

    It would be funny if GOT won all the technical awards and no award for writing or directing lol.

13. MaxHightower,

    I’ve said before I didn’t hate season 8 the way some folk did – but horses for courses and all that. I know I’m not the only one who has observed that Messrs B&W MAY be better at adapting material than at writing from a cliff notes outline from scratch. I’m not a scriptwriter so can’t speak from a point of expertise on the subject. Adapting an unfinished work must be extremely difficult especially when it relates to a work as complex as ASOIAF. I certainly don’t think it’s a shoe-in that GoT will win in acting/writing/directing categories given the negativity that was around at the end of the show. I’ve never watched “The Handmaid’s Tale” so I can’t comment if the lady in that show was better than Carice or not.

    I’m a little off-topic here but somebody suggested “The Handmaid’s Tale” might be worth my time even if it’s not “my cuppa”. She said that it is a warning of how things might go awry in the not too distant future. I’m not sure. When the other lady told me THT might be a warning about a possible future I thought “Yeah Right” but recently there was an instance here in the UK midlands of people protesting outside a secure hospital for mentally sick people – and they were letting off fireworks. That was disturbing.

    I didn’t think I’d like GoT because it is grim dark fantasy but it did draw me in.

14. Really glad GOT crushed it last night especially casting and musical score which have been above and beyond every season of the show.

15. Congrats to everybody!
    And congrats to everybody that didn’t win, because their work is still valued and important and all the hard work is there and anybody can see it.

16. I can’t imagine why Guest actors aren’t presented alongside the other acting categories. So mad CvH didn’t win, arrgh…especially since her episode picked up so many and I’ve zero interest in Handmaid’s Tale…but she looked amazing, there’s always the Oscars, and at least we’ll get to watch them present the day before the rest of the awards air.
    Glad the casting, stunts, & titles got ’em.

17. I don’t know Cherry Jones, so can’t say if she is good enough to defeat our best actress of our country. But it’s a shame Carice didn’t win. But still a nomination, the top 6 of the year. Well done Carice.

    Music composition: The right choice won.
    Sound editing: Right episode won.
    Outstanding Casting: Of course she won.
    Outstanding Sound mixing: Also right choice.
    Outstanding SVE: Of course the bell won with this.
    Outstanding Stunt coordination: Of course GoT won with this.
    Outstanding Single Camera Picture Editing: Once again the right choice for this. But they all deserve praise.
    Outstanding Fantasy/ sci-fi costume: If this one was lost, the result was rigged. No other could have won this than Michelle Clapton.
    Outstanding make-up for a single Camera Series: Once again they deserved it.
    Outslanding title design: One of the best title sequence in history of TV and movie, of course they won.

    The losses in a next comment

18. Outstanding Production Design For a Narrative Period or Fantasy Program (One Hour or More): I can see why they lost this to Chernobyl.
    Outstanding Cinematography For A Single-Camera Series (One Hour): I don’t know The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, so don’t know if it’s any good. But GoT deserved to win.
    Outstanding Hairstyling for a Single-Camera Series: Same as above.
    Outstanding Prosthetic Makeup for a Series, Limited Series, Movie or Special: Haven’t watch ST. But I heard it was good when it comes to things like makeup etc.
    Outstanding Creative Achievement In Interactive Media Within A Scripted Program: I don’t care that they lost this one. I’m all for new media, but this is not my cup of tea.

    Now to next weekend. Awards are coming

19. Congratulations all-round!

    (1) GOT did well in creative work required in telling the tale. The artists working in these areas deserve their plaudits (and seem well-liked by their peers which always count with Emmys). The problem was that the story they were required to tell was seriously sub-standard as a narrative.

    (2) I wonder what was the budget of the other shows compared to the money spent by HBO. HBO put up a fabulous budget for GOT8. I wonder how much GOT8 spent per award compared to the other less-resourced shows. With a massive budget, the GOT8 team could do more than others. However, that is life and they did well with what they had.

20. Did the D&D show up?

21. Mango,

    Stranger Things and The Crown have the same budget as GoT. I think Amazon’s The Boys as well.

    I think THT has huge budget as well.

22. I fully support Chernobyl winning for production design, apologies if this is a controversial opinion, but I didn’t like the way KL looked in the Bells, it was one of the more fake looking sets, particularly the walls. I think it might be down to the lighting in broad daylight.

    I’m hoping Succession wins best writing next week, and best drama, though that will obviously go to GOT. The writing category is open imo.

23. Dame of Mercia:
    MaxHightower,

    I’ve said before I didn’t hate season 8 the way some folk did – but horses for courses and all that.I know I’m not the only one who has observed that Messrs B&W MAY be better at adapting material than at writing from a cliff notes outline from scratch.I’m not a scriptwriter so can’t speak from a point of expertise on the subject.Adapting an unfinished work must be extremely difficult especially when it relates to a work as complex as ASOIAF.I certainly don’t think it’s a shoe-in that GoT will win in acting/writing/directing categories given the negativity that was around at the end of the show.I’ve never watched “The Handmaid’s Tale” so I can’t comment if the lady in that show was better than Carice or not.

    I’m a little off-topic here but somebody suggested “The Handmaid’s Tale” might be worth my time even if it’s not “my cuppa”.She said that it is a warning of how things might go awry in the not too distant future.I’m not sure.When the other lady told me THT might be a warning about a possible future I thought “Yeah Right” but recently there was an instance here in the UK midlands of people protesting outside a secure hospital for mentally sick people – and they were letting off fireworks. That was disturbing.

    I didn’t think I’d like GoT because it is grim dark fantasy but it did draw me in.

    Lots to agree with here.

    My dislike/disapproval of GOT8 is strong and has continued to grow with time. I am learning that I feel strongly about the responsibility of storytellers to their craft and audience.

    The writer of THT has just published another book so they now also have fresh material. I have not watched THT but the reviews are quite positive.

24. 10 Emmys is more than GoT ever had at Creative Awards. Last year they had 7. In 2016 it was 9.

    In 2015 they won 8. And 4 in 2014.

    I don’t remember what was in 2011-2013 period

25. Dame of Mercia,

    THT is like TWD. The show is on because it’s popular, but you don’t feel it’s going somewhere.

26. mau:
    Mango,

    Stranger Things and The Crown have the same budget as GoT. I think Amazon’s The Boys as well.

    I think THT has huge budget as well.

    Thanks!

    Are these shows spending their money on good writers? On a good writing room? Or do they all have CGI?

    GOT8 does not seem to have used any money on writing talent.

    Perhaps a question would be the money spent on talent versus spectacle?

    (I still have a post about critics that I will try to re-write/re-post this week.)

27. Jenny:
    I fully support Chernobyl winning for production design, apologies if this is a controversial opinion, but I didn’t like the way KL looked in the Bells, it was one of the more fake looking sets, particularly the walls.I think it might be down to the lighting in broad daylight.

    I’m hoping Succession wins best writing next week, and best drama, though that will obviously go to GOT.The writing category is open imo.

    GOT8 may win the writing award – to the discredit of the Emmys. It would be an embarrassment to the industry but do not be surprised if this happens. HBO is an excellent Emmy campaigner and they must be trying to salvage this franchise.

    Let us see.

28. Casting win should mean that GoT will win Outstanding Directing, but who knows.

29. mau:
    Mango,

    Stranger Things and The Crown have the same budget as GoT. I think Amazon’s The Boys as well.

    I think THT has huge budget as well.

    I simply read your post and assumed that it followed the comment I made.

    Crown and Stranger Things do not seem to be in competition this year. So the original questions also stands if refined – in this year, I wonder how much the other shows spent per award compared with GOT?

30. Mango,

    I wouldn’t quite go that far lol. Succession is another HBO show, and it’s an ongoing series, they may want to show that they have something to offer after GOT. I imagine the campaign will push for GOT, but I don’t think HBO will be crying either way. They will win big in the mini series categories with Chernobyl as well.

31. Mango,

    Marvelous Ms Maisel that beat GoT in cinematography has hudge budget. I read interviews with showrunner. I don’t know the exact numbers, but it’s on Amazon and they spend a lot of money on their show.

    I don’t know how much HBO invested in Chernobyl that beat GoT for production design.

32. Jenny:
    Mango,

    I wouldn’t quite go that far lol.Succession is another HBO show, and it’s an ongoing series, they may want to show that they have something to offer after GOT.I imagine the campaign will push for GOT, but I don’t think HBO will be crying either way.They will win big in the mini series categories with Chernobyl as well.

    Jenny:
    Mango,

    I wouldn’t quite go that far lol.Succession is another HBO show, and it’s an ongoing series, they may want to show that they have something to offer after GOT.I imagine the campaign will push for GOT, but I don’t think HBO will be crying either way.They will win big in the mini series categories with Chernobyl as well.

    HBO will do well.

    HBO has really contributed some excellent program to the entertainment industry. And raised the industry standards in many ways – they have been around long before Netflix, Amazon etc.

    I have never watched Succession but my physician tells me it is wonderful. I have read a review or two but not enough to get a picture of the series.

33. HBO will do well.

    HBO has contributed a great deal of excellent programming to the industry. It raised the industry standards when it entered the market.

    I have never watched Succession but my physician thinks it is excellent. I have read one or two reviews but not enough to form a picture of the series.

34. okie dokie….all kinds of wild posts…

35. All well-deserved.

    But can we not talk about “losing” or “losses”? GoT didn’t “lose” any awards. It didn’t win some, which is not the same thing. You can’t lose something you’ve never had.

    I don’t feel that Carice should have won in the Guest category, in fact I don’t think she should have been nominated. Carice played a regular character. I know that as she appeared in only one episode this series, she technically qualified as a guest but it doesn’t seem to me to be in the spirit of the award.

    For me, a “guest” actor is someone who blows in for one episode, such as Birgitte Hjort Sørensen who played Karsi in ‘Hardhome’.
    Cherry Jones was only in one episode of THT, she played the part of the main character’s mother in a flashback. That’s a guest actress.

    Sad to see the haters are back repeating what they’ve already told us ad nauseam. Go and watch something else.

36. mau,

    Interesting…I must check Mrs Maisel out. (Well, I won’t but I should!)

37. Regarding Chernobyl budget worth noting that this was produced by HBO and Sky in partnership so likely had two huge entertainment networks funding it rather than just one.

38. Dame of Mercia,

    Okay, first of all, YOUR NAME IS SO COOL! Go AEthelflaed! (I hope I wrote that right)

    And I completely agree with you, I think D&D are at best when thet adapt material from other people into TV / Movies, and hey, there is nothing wrong with it, there is a “best adapted screenplay” category at the Oscars after all.

    And I also applaud their bravery for keeping up with the show and still making it succesful and somewhat interesting.

    However, the quality of the last two seasons in terms of writing was… bad imo, it was a nice story after all, but that was due to the fact that we already had fallen madly in love with the characters and we cared for them… until we didnt.

    I havent watched most of the Emmy nominees either if I am being honest, but Killing Eve blew my mind, my wig and my soul, maybe you should check that out too!

39. Congrats to all the winners!
    I’m so sorry for Carice, one of the (many) talented actors I have known and loved because of GOT. I thought I couldn’t stand another season of The Handmaid’s Tale in spite of its value, time spent in that bleak verse began to seem like torture for me. But I want to see the actor who won instead of Carice, so… I should watch it.

40. Mango,

    Oh please not this bullshit again.

    If GoT didn’t have great writers, the people bashing on season 8 wouldn’t have gotten past season 1 or even past the first episode. That that many people watched season 8 is only prove that GoT had great writers. That also mean D&D. Or did we forget other great episodes they have written? they have written 51 of the 73 episodes that have aired, that’s 70% of the episodes. If D&D were so incompetent as writers, why would you watch a show that is written 70% by them?

    You can say that they have given less quality in writing this season compared to previous ones, I can respect those opinions. But saying that they are not great writers, you’re saying that people shouldn’t have praised even season 1. Where they have written 8 of the 10 episodes. Sorry those opinions I can’t take seriously, if you previous praised D&D for season 1 till 7 and bashing them for season 8. So what is it, are they great writers that gave us the first 7 seasons (and also the 8), or are all the 8 seasons bad because D&D are not great writers.

41. Mango,

    If they win the Emmy’s it’s only prove that the backlash is not objective. The Emmy’s consist of people watching the writing objectively. (They also look at the scripts only and not what was given on screen because that’s directing). We fans are subjective, even when you state it as objective facts. Some liked it, some hated it. Some hated it because of the HOW, some because of the WHAT. But that’s not what the emmy’s will look at, they will look at it objective, not as fans that expected something, they look at the scripts if the scripts are written good.

    But I wonder if they win, personally (subjective) I wish they would win, but I hope the Emmy voters (objective) will see it the same as me, but probably not.

42. For those considering watching The Handmaid’s Tale, the first season which sticks quite closely to the original source is very good. I would definitely recommend watching it, but be aware it’s quite brutal. Still, if you made it through GoT, you should be up to it! 🙂

    Series 2 is good for a while, but it’s got very repetitive now and having slogged through Series 3 I’ve lost interest as they just seem intent on milking more out of it without really knowing where it’s going. A lot of it is endless shots of Elizabeth Moss gurning into the camera, while there are some potentially interesting minor characters who remain underused.

43. kevin1989,

    I don’t know how objective the Emmy voting is either tbh, the news outlets are full of columns bemoaning the fact that GOT will sweep the awards when they probably (in their opinions) shouldn’t. To be fair that happens with all awards. Then you get the old X person has been nominated loads of times, and now this is the last opportunity to give them the award they should have won years ago despite this not really being their best year *cough* Lena Headey *cough*

    Awards are lovely, but they are silly in some ways, with all of the campaigning and rule changes for voting. Here is an interesting article about the process, https://www.goldderby.com/article/2018/emmy-voting-process-news-528159374/

    The new system seems better than the old, now that people have to promise to actually watch the things they are voting for. We all know that some of them were just voting for the people they had heard of, I’ve certainly done that in my time lol.

44. Jenny,

    Mm-hmm, agreed. saying that the Emmy voters are completely objective is a rather naive statement to make.

    I also agree that awards shows can be fun, but it’s also a lot of self-indulgence and patting themselves on the back just for making entertainment. It’s not like they’re curing Cancer.

    I hope the best for my favorite actors/actresses, but I think it’s a bit strange to have any personal investment in who wins and doesn’t win an Emmy.

45. MaxHightower,

    Aethelflaede of Mercia founded my hometown (and quite a few towns in what used to be the ancient kingdom of Mercia). Years ago I was trying to think of a name that would have something olde-worlde about it so I took “Dame” – I think women did used to be addressed politely as “Dame” in the middle ages (probably from the French word for lady) but I wanted to ring the changes on the word “Lady” and I thought about Aethelflaede (not sure if I’ve spelled it correctly) because as I say she founded the town where I live. Strictly speaking Aethelflaede is more dark ages than middle ages but never mind.

46. kevin1989,

    There’s no such thing as “objective” voting; this sort of thing is intrinsically subjective, for the most part.

    Nina Gold has done great work over the years, but I disagree with her winning casting this year. There was hardly any casting, to speak of; the show introduced no significant new characters, and hardly any minor characters with more than a couple of lines.

    The other production wins are certainly merited.

47. I have to admit it will be very entertaining on social media if D&D win for best writing in a drama series. I’m getting my popcorn ready just in case. Who’s with me? Just to state my side I am not one of the fans who hated season 8. It was fine for me. 😉

48. kevin1989,

    “they have written 51 of the 73 episodes that have aired, that’s 70% of the episodes. If D&D were so incompetent as writers, why would you watch a show that is written 70% by them?”

    While I basically agree with your critique, surely you must acknowledge that in 51 eps or 70% as you say, not all of it can be equally good.
    Much of the success depended on their source, meaning Martin’s ASOIAF and whatever the writer may have told them in private.
    It’s only reasonable that the quality of the overall story deteriorated as they ran out of source material.
    People have not watched GOT because D&D are talented, but because ASOIAF is captivating. (there are probably many subcategories to this however, i.e. others like the political plot, others the supernatural context, others the characters, others the wars and battles and so on; and there’s more if we examine GOT as a production).

    “If they win the Emmy’s it’s only prove that the backlash is not objective.”

    It’s not even backlash we’re talking about, unless we reduce ourselves to 12 y.o. seeking the do-it-all-never-die hero or the lethal-butt-good-in-heart-fantastic-in-bed -who-saves-his-but-heroine. Is this what we’re talking about? If it is, then the backlash is indeed wrong.
    The best critique is founded on solid arguments about good story-telling, internal coherence and character evolvement, so that can be objective and imo it is to be respected and heard.

    I’ll tell you what though, I don’t think that any of the submitted scripts will be examined for their coherence, significance and placement in the overall story-structure of the TV series to which they belong. No, I think they’ll be examined separately from their stories.

    So D&D have good chances to win after all.
    (even though their script was the script to another story, forgive my snark once again Kevin)

49. MiaMoon,

    Lol, frankly I’m tired of it already, and it hasn’t even happened yet.

50. Efi,

    People watched GoT because Benioff and Weiss are talented and made millions fall in love with their interpretation of ASOIAF.

    ASOIAF books are good, but I don’t remember Peter Jackson”s accomplishments being dismissed because he had (finished!) book series to adapt.

    And in a lot of cases GRRM’s books served more as inspiration. Majority of the most iconic scenes and episodes were created by Benioff and Weiss.

51. MiaMoon,

    I’m not brave enough for that, I think I will stay well away from that reaction. I won’t be mad or upset if they win, but if a script that contains the dragon pit scene wins an Emmy for best writing, well, that will be eyebrow raising to me. Not to get into it here, but it’s the one part of the finale that had me all ‘nope’, I’m not bothered by the ‘failed geography’ tidbits, or why Drogon burnt the throne. I just didn’t think that scene worked on any level, it sure as hell didn’t convince me that Westeros is now in good hands. I’m telling you guys, Bran is evil, it is the only explanation lol.

52. Jenny,

    I don’t think Emmys or anything else is “objective”. Emmys and Oscars show what people within industry think about movies and shows. Nothing more and nothing less.

53. Jenny,

    Lol, Jon didn’t actually kill Dany. It’s all a big lie I tells ya! He faked it to go live out the rest of his days with her somewhere in Essos. Jon’s going to fake his death up North and rendezvous with Dany after Drogon picks him up somewhere in the Always North.

    When Bran said he’d go try and see where Drogon went he really meant that he’s in cahoots with Drogon, Dany, and Jon. Bran just went to his predetermined meeting spot where Drogon will pick him up too and take him to Essos to live out the rest of his days with Jon and Dany. Together, they will be the baddies for the sequel.

    Didn’t you know? 🙂

54. MiaMoon,

    Since majority of GoT haters don’t hate only writing, but also D&D personally I would be happy if they win. Hating a writer on personal level is insane and these people need mental help.

55. mau: majority of GoT haters don’t hate only writing, but also D&D personally

    There are a lot of nasty people out there for sure, but I think this is a bit of an exaggeration, though I suppose it depends on whose opinions you are listening to. Most of the people I know either didn’t like the ending or were fairly ambivalent about it and don’t have any lingering hatred for D&D. Are you referring to You Tube and Reddit comments, which are always nasty about everything ever?

56. Jenny,

    True, I was maybe a bit too black and white with thinking. But I’m getting a bit tired of people constantly dwelling in the negative. I personally had some issues with season 8. I was one that had a lot of critic after episode 3, but I got to live with it, and try to look at it why the WW treat was already gone there, and that my problem was not with episode 3 but with what came before, I expected more action with the WW before the last big battle, but we got what we got, so I looked at the positive things of the season. And I have a problem with the dany turn when it comes to her whole arc. They should have had her going to westeros as a character who we fear was going to westeros. And also the wall needed to go down at the end of season 6 (by horn of winter, better a simple solution that works), having the Ice and Fire enemies going to westeros at the same time, from 2 different angles. Having season 7 10 episodes of that with the big WW conclusion and 8 6 episodes about the rest (8×04 till 8×06). And some other minor problems that I wish was different. But that’s not what we got and I lived with it, and instead of tearing everything down because I didn’t get what I want, I try to appreciate what we got.
    And that’s what I’m a bit fed up with the constant negative look at it, and only focus on the negative. And if they win awards its “The didn’t deserve it, the ones choosing the winner doesn’t know what he is talking about” reaction, but when they will lose it’s “See, they know what they are talking about, it was all bad”.

    But I think we can agree that people working in the business, knowing the work off it, how it works, the constrains etc know it better then we who forget that there is a lot going on before it airs. The choices that needed to be made even when they didn’t want to. And I think people tend to forget how much the WW storyline costs compared to the rest.

57. Mr Derp,

    Ah, my man Bran was playing the long game, he insisted Jon be told about his parentage to put the kibosh on Queen Dany and King Jon, he saw KL burn and did nothing to stop it, he refused to rule Winterfell because he had his eye on the main prize. A master stroke I think. Even the poor NK couldn’t stop him, the true hero of the tale.

58. Sean C.,

    What I meant with objective is that they tend to look at a certain angle we don’t look at it. We look at it “What was entertaining to watch.” But that’s not how they look at it. They are maybe not 100% objective, but more objective then we are. They see mistakes we don’t (want to) see, or they see some great things we don’t (want to) see. So in that way they are more objective than us.

    For instance with the writing award. We look at it, how we perceived the final episode of GoT. And we either hate it or loved it. Because we also look at the directing acting etc. Even with the writing we only look what got on screen and what we were shown.
    The Emmy voters don’t look at the final cut. They look with that award at one thing: The script itself. That includes the deleted scenes, that includes directions and other details we don’t see directly on screen. Little directions for the director to follow that help the directing process will already be a plus-point for the writers. If a scene was deleted when filming but still written in the script, it will be included with the process. Which can be a good or a bad thing, depends if the deleted scene was good or not.

    So they maybe aren’t that objective as should be, but more objective than us, they watch the season without expectations, without a “I wish that will happen.” and other feelings we have. They will not think “I wish Dany stayed the hero” because for them that was not an issue. They will only look at if that was done well enough in this season. Lot’s of feeling we have with the season because we watched the first 7 seasons as fans they don’t have.

59. Congrats to the winners for their awards are all well deserved .
    Nina did exceptional work with her choices. RD’s musical score was stunning in it’s ability to stir excitement, fear and tears.
    Disappointed for Carice as she was utterly perfect in her role as the Red Witch.
    Hoping the Emmys go well and we are rejoicing afterwards.

60. Efi,

    Oh no problem 😀 I like discussing with you. And agree depends on the critic. I always like reading yours. But I’m fed up with the 100% downers, who don’t even see a single good thing in season 8. And with the “It’s the worst season of all time of all shows”-mentality. And it’s getting old, the show is already 4 months done and it will not change, so why linger on the bad, nothing good comes from it. But looking at the good at least made yourself feel better.

    As for the script, you’re right they look at it as a single episode, only the final itself, not what came before. For me the final itself is great, but I agree with when people say the road to it could be better (much better). For me every episode of season 7 and 8 are great on it’s own. But when it comes to the glue that keep them together, that is sometimes missing. (Like the missing link between episode 4 and 5 which still bother’s me sometimes but it is what it is).

    As for D&D scripts, true, but even the first seasons had their mistakes. Did we forget that horrible scene in 1×07. Where they destroyed an amazing scene about Brandon Stark dueling Littlefinger, with that moaning of 2 woman doing it for minutes and minutes. I don’t think a single straight man remember the story about Brandon, even when rewatching the show multiple times.

    As for the later seasons. I agree those seasons could be much much better if they had the template of the books with them. They would probably have included some other characters from the books if they knew George’s plan for them. But how else could they have done it than what we got when George would play the “read my mind for what will happen in the last 2 books”-routine. He gave them some points to work with, but left out the rest. Even Peter Jackson said that he couldn’t have made LotR what it is, if the books weren’t done and he didn’t have the full picture, he had huge respect for D&D. And do we really think that somebody else could have guessed George’s mind. Ending somebody elses story is much more difficult than ending your own story, because your own story is as it stated your own. Even George have difficult finishing his story, so how could D&D do it with even a bigger deadline before them.
    So for me that issue is more a problem because of George. He also could have stated in the contract he gave HBO that every book needed at least to be that many seasons. He didn’t.

    So I agree with the complains to some degree, because I have my own set of complains and still think sometimes what if they did it more like this or more like that. But that will not change the outcome.

61. Jenny,

    He is secretly an observer. (If you watched Fringe you know what I mean)

    Mr Derp,

    I would watch that but only if Arya can be the big hero of the story. Coming back from her voyage. Where she first deals with her evil brother Bran. And the second season Jon and Dany.

    Game of thrones: No One

62. Efi,

    I say let’s give credit where credit is due, and apportion blame when there’s blame to ascribe.

    Arguably, the quality of the show degraded once the showrunners ran out of source material. Whose fault is that?

    In retrospect, wouldn’t it have been better if GRRM stayed involved with the show and wrote some more episodes? (I really liked the early seasons’ episodes he scripted.) After all, it’s not as if the time he saved not writing scripts was devoted to getting the books finished in a timely manner.

    I feel bad that he divorced himself from the show. Reading his old blog posts and interviews during the casting process and run-up to the show’s premiere, his excitement was palpable. He posed riddles to fans to have them guess who’d been cast for which roles. And he was sure the show wouldn’t overtake the books.

    Also in retrospect: Could the showrunners have benefited from some more writers? Probably so. Whether Benioff, Weiss & Co. were burned out or in a rush to finish, perhaps some “fresh blood” could’ve injected a little more enthusiasm and creativity in the whole process.

    Nevertheless, for me at least there are enough highlights and “high thread count” scenes in the 73+ hours to stitch together a perpetual rewatch loop.

63. kevin1989,

    There is no doubt in my mind that some (perhaps a lot) of people are wanting these awards to validate their opinions, if it wins ‘see, there is nothing wrong with it’ if it doesn’t ‘see I told you it was terrible’. I’m not really looking at it that way, it’s a massive show, and had a big impact, so it will obviously win a lot of awards. I may not agree with all of them but that’s fine, I often don’t agree with awards. I’ve heard what the fans think, I’ve heard what the critics think, I have no idea what the Emmy voters think, it will be interesting to see their response to S8, they are more knowledgeable about actually producing shows and that may make the difference.

    I read that at recent industry events, there has been a lot of buzz about Fleabag possibly upsetting Veep, and Succession upsetting GOT because the 2nd season has aired during the voting window and people are pretty high on it. I do find awards interesting but I don’t take them too seriously, voters are swayed by timing just like everybody else. Veep and GOT are ending, so people expect them to sweep up.

    As for the negative response, I think it might settle down in a few years, I don’t think people are quite so hateful towards Lost anymore. It’s still pretty fresh in people’s minds. For me, I didn’t hate the ending, I hated how we got there, I called Dany’s end, I knew there wouldn’t be a throne, I thought the Kingdoms might split, so I was sort of right about that because of Winterfell. I’ll probably get over it a lot quicker than those who hate the actual ending plot points too, I’m already less passionate than I was, I feel quite chill about it. I’ll never stop bitching about my valonqar prophecy though, chisel that on my tombstone lol.

64. kevin1989,

    ”I would watch that but only if Arya can be the big hero of the story. Coming back from her voyage. Where she first deals with her evil brother Bran. And the second season Jon and Dany.

    Game of thrones: No One.”

    ———-
    Needless to say, I’d pull up a chair and watch that with you.

    #ASNAWP

    P.S. While I would want Arya to be joined on her voyages to uncharted seas by a somehow resurrected Sandor, in an ironic twist I doubt Rory McCann could be located on his wooden boat in the middle of nowhere and lured back to reprise his role. In real life just like Sandor Clegane, Rory McCann apparently prefers solitude over crowds. He certainly could have cashed in on the popularity of The Hound, and yet it appears he has shunned all opportunities: No new TV or film projects, no TV commercials, no print ads.

65. kevin1989:
    Efi,

    As for D&D scripts, true, but even the first seasons had their mistakes. Did we forget that horrible scene in 1×07. Where they destroyed an amazing scene about Brandon Stark dueling Littlefinger, with that moaning of 2 woman doing it for minutes and minutes. I don’t think a single straight man remember the story about Brandon, even when rewatching the show multiple times.

    OMG that scene, I had to put the subtitles on and turn the volume down. My eyes kept flicking to the door in case someone came in, I was so embarrassed to be caught watching it. The most gratuitous scene in the show. I remember one directer saying that he was told to add more nudity, for no reason whatsoever, so juvenile. At least later seasons dropped that rubbish.

    Ten Bears,

    I got the impression that he was getting increasingly miffed about plots getting cut, particularly Lady Stoneheart, there must have been other reasons, but that is the only one anyone will admit to. That and he needed time to work on the books…. sure Jan.

66. Sean C.:
    kevin1989,

    “Nina Gold has done great work over the years, but I disagree with her winning casting this year.There was hardly any casting, to speak of; the show introduced no significant new characters, and hardly any minor characters with more than a couple of lines.”

    I had not thought about that until you mentioned it. You’re right: There really weren’t any new, significant characters this past season, and none of the new actors in the handful of minor roles stole the show or had memorable cameos (like, for example, Bella Ramsey in her two brief scenes in S6).

    I guess Nina Gold got a legacy win..

67. Efi,

    ”It’s not even backlash we’re talking about, unless we reduce ourselves to 12 y.o. seeking the do-it-all-never-die hero or the lethal-but-good-in-heart-fantastic-in-bed -who-saves-his-but-heroine.”

    ___
    And which heroine might that be?

68. mau:
    Mango,

    Marvelous Ms Maisel that beat GoT in cinematography has huge budget. I read interviews with showrunner. I don’t know the exact numbers, but it’s on Amazon and they spend a lot of money on their show.

    I don’t know how much HBO invested in Chernobyl that beat GoT for production design.

    “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel” has been on my to-watch list because I’ve really liked Rachel Brosnahan ever since her supporting role in Season 1 of “The Blacklist.” That she later won an Emmy for “Mrs. Maisel” really piqued my interest in that show. Now I’m also looking forward to getting blown away by the cinematography on that show.

    I’ve rewatched GoT S8e5 “The Bells” with the sound off. The cinematography was breathtaking. If another show did better, I can’t wait to see it.

69. Congrats to Joe Bauer who is from my city (Springfield MO)!

70. Mango,

    Hey Mango!

    Slightly off-topic… I ran across a “meme” referencing your revision of “Bran the Broken” to the more apt name, “Bran the Useless.”

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8Jz8vrW4AUgx_J?format=jpg&name=small

71. mau,

    I don’t see where we disagree. I’m not denying they’re talented, I’m only saying ti can’t be the only reason for watching GOT. There’s lots to watch GOT for.
    As for scenes if you’re referring to imagery and set-up it’s not like scripts, so it’s not the same talent (I’d say, even though I am not very sure I’d rather need to contemplate on it).

72. Jenny,

    Agree, that’s why I wish they had a more dark dany already at the end of season 6. Would have been interesting, if we would back up Cersei at that moment as the lesser evil.

    Also I think that the shorter season 7 and the whole “Meeting at Dragonstone” and having the wall still stand at the end of season 6, have delayed some storylines which would have come to better fruition if they all were there for a 10 episode season 7, which concluded the WW treat at the end. I think a huge problem with season 7 and 8 is that it was too neat. GoT works best when there is chaos in the storyline, that storyline is busy at the same time as that and fitting that peaces together with a conclusion at the end of the season. Season 7 and 8 was too neat as in, it focussed on one, closed it and move to the next. It also felt like there was enough time to defeat the WW. I think it would have been thrilling (which I think the books will go that route) if the wall was done, Dany going to westeros, and we would be in conflict. We want Dany to fail because she is already too dark and dangerous. But the north is losing the war, and they need Dany to defeat them. They need to work with an evil and give her more power to defeat that other evil. But that that was Dany’s choice who saved the day. It would be after that, we are happy she helped defeat the WW but we are scared how she will subjugate the north to her power and even use them.
    that conflict was out of the window. In season 7 we want Cersei too lose and Dany to win. in 8×01 till 8×03 we want the WW to win but the rest to win. 8×04 we want Cersei too lose. 8×05 Dany to lose and the final resolve that. The conflict in choosing is gone. Like we got in 2×09. We wanted neither to win or lose in that battle. We hated Stannis and Cersei, but loved Sansa, Tyrion and Davos. Conflict. That conflict was gone once the story was too neat and ordered. Littlefinger was right. chaos is a laddah. A laddah every show needs to climb. Some are afraid to climb it, some climb it but fail. the laddah is all there is.

73. Ten Bears,

    Arya founds the hound, he is asleep in his boat. Arya wakes him up.
    The hound: For fucks sake. Can’t you see I’m sleeping.
    Arya holding a pair of chickens.
    Arya: I though you mind be hungry for a bunch of chickens.
    Hound: Is that you, the Stark bitch?
    Arya: It’s nice too see you too. Get on board. You’re not the only one who have to end his evil brother.
    Scene changed to evil Bran sitting in his evil chair.

74. Jenny,

    Same here, I always skip that scene. Or that scene in season 2 with the whore having some sticky glue on her ear. I don’t mind nude scenes we got in later seasons, those seem to have a point to it. But some earlier season nudity seems to be just to have some nudity.

    Ten Bears,

    I’m not agreeing with that. She got us many new characters in season 8 which needed to be rightly cast. forgot-my-elephant-man, crispy-mother-and-daughter-duo, Shireen look-a-like, dornish lad and some others.

75. Ten Bears,

    hahahaha!
    I bet you’re thinking the girl with the complicated acronym, right?

76. Mr Derp,

    I’m talking about internet. In real life people have no idea who Benioff and Weiss even are.

    You can go on Reddit and twitter to see toxicity. Nerd culture is cancer.

77. I skip that scene as well as the beginning of Danerys wedding. Really didn’t need all that to make its point if there was one

78. I’m a little disappointed about Carice, but overall, I’d say it was a very good night. Congratulations to all the crew! They most certainly have earned it!

79. Mango,

    For season 8, money was spent on the writing team the same way it was spent the previous seasons, with D&D taking the bulk of the episodes. Considering GOT season 8 earned the most viewers and Emmy nominations than ever before, it was money well spent.

80. MaxHightower,

    I suggest you look at all the nominations for the WOTW Awards. There is no shortage of nominations for heart wrenching deaths, dramatic character exchanges, exciting fight scenes, and intense situations that showcases D&D’s talent. This shows that season 8 was filled to the brim with fantastic writing, which far outshone the few flaws.

81. Mango: Lots to agree with here.
    My dislike/disapproval of GOT8 is strong and has continued to grow with time.I am learning that I feel strongly about the responsibility of storytellers to their craft and audience.

    It is not a writer’s responsibility to end their story the way the readers/viewers want. That would be impossible, as people want different things. All a writer can do is write their story the way they envision it, without being influenced by the wishes of fans. D&D remained true to the story and its characters until the end, and that’s all we can ask for.

82. The 10 wins at the Creative Arts Emmys last night for Game of Thrones Season 8 brings the total number of wins for the series to a truly jaw-dropping 57, far more than any other scripted series in TV history. And they’ll have the chance to add at least 7 more next Sunday at the Primetime ceremony! I’d consider the show a heavy favorite to win three of those – Drama Series, Directing (likely for Miguel Sapochnik and “The Long Night”), and Peter Dinklage in Supporting Actor (even with Nikolaj and Alfie as competition). But they’ll have a strong chance to win Lead Actor, Lead Actress, Supporting Actress, and Writing as well!

    Here’s a nice summary of all the Emmys that GOT has won to date over the course of its run. http://www.goldderby.com/article/2019/game-of-thrones-extends-emmy-record-creative-arts-awards-every-category-news/

    Incidentally, “The Long Night” picked up 5 trophies by itself, one short of the record of 6 for any single scripted episode. It will have three chances to equal or best the record with Miguel Sapochnik in Directing, Maisie Williams in Supporting Actress (since she chose that as her submission episode), and Alfie Allen in Supporting Actor (ditto). With Sapochnik as the favorite in Director, I have to believe that it’s likely to pull that feat off.

83. GoT is in the position to win Emmy’s due to it being the last year for them, and not just for merit of the season (this happens often with awards shows, it’s their last chance to give recognition). So while I don’t believe D-squared should win writing for Season 8, I do believe they should win for the series as a whole, and I’m thinking that is the direction it’ll go.

    I can dislike S8 writing without disliking the 2 of them personally (because believe it or not, I don’t actually know them! Gasp!). And I can dislike S8 writing while still counting Benioff’s other works, ‘City of Thieves’ and ‘The 25th Hour’, among favourites. Heck, I can dislike S8 writing while still loving the series writing in general. See how that works? It’s possible to not be all or nothing. So to those who love shitting on the S8 “haters” – keep your latrines away from me, thanks.

84. Efi:
    Ten Bears,

    hahahaha!
    I bet you’re thinking the girl with the complicated acronym, right?

    I thought that’s the “heroine” you were describing when you referred to
    “the do-it-all-never-die hero or the lethal-but-good-in-heart-fantastic-in-bed -who-saves-his-butt-heroine.”

    Lethal? ✅
    Good in the heart? ✅
    (Ask pork merchant; Lady Crane; Hot Pie)
    Fantastic in bed? ✅
    (She must be a prodigy. Gendry was gobsmacked)
    Saves hero’s butt? ✅
    (See Jon vs. Viserion or Bran vs. NK)

85. I’m surprised they won costumes for “The Bells”. Would have expected and hoped they’d win that for “The Iron Throne”.

    I’m also kind of surprised they won best picture editing for “The Long Night”. Again, I would have given that to “The Iron Throne”.

    It seems like Episodes 3 and 5 are taking home all the awards simply because they are the two climactic battle episodes, even though a lot of things were done better in other episodes of the season (especially Episodes 2 and 6).

86. kevin1989: Where they destroyed an amazing scene about Brandon Stark dueling Littlefinger, with that moaning of 2 woman doing it for minutes and minutes. I don’t think a single straight man remember the story about Brandon, even when rewatching the show multiple times.

    You’d be mistaken. I’m a straight man, who at the time had not read the books, and I followed, processed, and remembered the story about Brandon with no issue. I thought the scene revealed a lot of interesting things about Littlefinger. Having the two women in the scene didn’t really cause any issues for me, except that at a certain point the forced moaning was annoying.

    Presumably if you’re a straight man you’ve seen your fair share of naked women, so I don’t know why seeing two actresses faking stuff would prevent you from listening to what Littlefinger was saying.

87. kevin1989: So they maybe aren’t that objective as should be, but more objective than us, they watch the season without expectations, without a “I wish that will happen.” and other feelings we have

    You’re assuming that based on how things should be, but it’s just not the case. Emmy voters aren’t robots, they’re human beings just like us, and many of them are fans of the show with the same expectations and hopes that we had.

    8 seasons in, no one is “objective” about the show in any sense, unless they somehow never heard of it for all these years and were suddenly shown the whole thing for the specific purpose of voting at the Emmys.

    For the most part, Emmy voters are very similar to us. We look at technical aspects too, and they have their own points of view as fans as well. So our perspectives overlap significantly.

    And over the last many years the Emmys have become more and more of a popularity contest. If they weren’t, Game of Thrones’ first 4 seasons would have received recognition. The fact that Season 5 was the first to win best drama is crazy.

    And if the Emmys cared about quality, shows like The Americans, Game of Thrones and Better Call Saul would basically win most awards every single year. Even something as brilliant as The Leftovers Seasons 2 and 3 got no recognition from the Emmys, even though everyone who had seen the show agreed that those two seasons were masterpieces in every way, and that The Leftovers was one of the greatest shows on TV at that time, and perhaps one of the greatest of all time.

    The Emmys at this point are mostly about hype and popularity, not “objective” quality.

88. Ten Bears: I guess Nina Gold got a legacy win..

    Still deserved in my book ! If anyone should receive a legacy win, it’s her. Her work is insane, not just on GoT, but on other projects she casts for as well.

    She definitely earned an award that gives her recognition for her work as a whole. The show wouldn’t have been anywhere near as good as it was without her casting.

89. Pigeon,

    I see you missing the point what I was saying. Nobody called the ones disliking season 8 haters, not me not a single on in this comment section.

    I was referring to a comment by Mango where he called D&D incompetent and not good writers (why else needed they to hire good writers for season 8). That statement is not a statement of season 8 but of all their work. Because if somebody is not a good writer, not a single episode they write is good written. That means neither those books you are referring too.

    He didn’t say something that D&D weren’t up their own lever from previous seasons, something you saying. That I can understand, and everybody is free to their opinion. So it was more the way he chosen his words instead of him disliking season 8.

90. Nick20,

    The next thing you are going to tell me is that you are a wizard, aren’t you?

    No you’re right but the way that scene was portrait was unnecessary, it was important to see that side of LF, but in that way? I don’t know if that was a fault of D&D or the director.

    Nick20,

    That’s true, but for me how I look at it is a bit like this:
    You walk into somebody’s home that they just moved into. You look around, do I like this house or not? Does it have nice big rooms where you can do you’re hobbies? Is the interior great and my taste? Is the kitchen they way I should have? etc, and maybe a bit technical that we think this is not my taste but it has style.
    Then some other enter the house, an estate agent. He look at the worth of the house, he look at different things we don’t notice. Mistakes we don’t see, but also things we don’t like in the house he maybe find worth in it.
    Then a plumber walks in, he looks at it from his work, is the plumbing in good shape, something many won’t do.
    Then a construction worker comes in, he doesn’t look at how it looks, at the stuff that is being placed into the house, he looks at things like is the foundation still good, are the walls still in good shape. Etc.
    Still those workers can look at it differently and have other things they found more important etc.

    That’s how I look at the Emmy’s also. They maybe have their own taste but they have a different take on it because of their profession. Some look only at the writing and have their own view on what is good writing, still not perfect but still better understanding than us. Some at directing, some at music etc.

    And thank you for noticing the leftovers. That show was brilliant. I still don’t understand why HBO or Lindelof himself didn’t enter their show. Season 2 and 3 was for me one of the most brilliant seasons out there of all shows I watched. But that’s not the fault of the Emmy’s. I think they would have gotten nominated if they were entered by HBO or the show itself. (But I think HBO forbade it.)

91. kevin1989:

    Ten Bears,

    I’m not agreeing with that. She got us many new characters in season 8 which needed to be rightly cast. forgot-my-elephant-man, crispy-mother-and-daughter-duo, Shireen look-a-like, dornish lad and some others.

    Let’s get a customer review of the “forgot-my-elephant-man” and his crew…

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7VphV6WkAAy1dd?format=jpg&name=medium

92. Nick20,

    If it’s about popularity why The Americans and The Crown took Emmys for writing and directing and not GoT last year?

    Why Stranger Things and Westworld lost to THT in 2017?

93. Pigeon: I can dislike S8 writing without disliking the 2 of them personally (because believe it or not, I don’t actually know them! Gasp!). And I can dislike S8 writing while still counting Benioff’s other works, ‘City of Thieves’ and ‘The 25th Hour’, among favourites. Heck, I can dislike S8 writing while still loving the series writing in general. See how that works? It’s possible to not be all or nothing. So to those who love shitting on the S8 “haters” – keep your latrines away from me, thanks.

    Thank you for this. Some people can’t seem to accept that it’s possible to dislike the writing for season 8 and still have respect for what D&D have done overall.

94. Ten Bears,

    XDXDXD hahahaha
    Reminds me of a photo-shopped photo of Dany on drogon from 7×04, with Cersei on top, and Drogon became an elephant spitting fire.

    Mr Derp,

    Nobody is thinking that here. So who do you think is saying that?

95. Nick20,

    She’s already won for GOT, though.

96. kevin1989: Nobody is thinking that here. So who do you think is saying that?

    I don’t have to “think” about whether someone is doing that or not, kevin. It happened to me in another thread a couple weeks ago. I was accused of “wanting to punch D&D in the nose” because I thought Rhaegal’s death was lame. It was bizarre to say the least.

97. Mr Derp: I don’t have to “think” about whether someone is doing that or not, kevin.It happened to me in another thread a couple weeks ago.I was accused of “wanting to punch D&D in the nose” because I thought Rhaegal’s death was lame.It was bizarre to say the least.

    Oh sorry my bad, wasn’t trying to attack, so hope it didn’t feel like that. And I’m with you when it comes to Rhaegal’s death. First when it aired I liked it, the shock. Second watch I wish for a more logical way of getting to that death. (Not the death part but the shooting from boat part)

    I think the overly negative vibe that social media got with GoT even 4 months after the last episode aired. And even here where sometimes not a single great thing can be said about the last season, I can see that people disliked it but was it so bad that not a single scene per episode can be said that was at least great. It sometimes feel like a downward spiral where people who liked it, and can overlook the bad things were pet on the nose “Why do you like it? The season was bad, that’s a fact, stop liking it”. And that gets to me I guess.

    I like the good discussions we have here, restructuring the seasons etc, it’s all fun. But even that wasn’t possible without D&D and George. And calling D&D bad writers I find a bit over-generalizing statement (was said in this comment section can’t remember who, doesn’t matter). Maybe the season was great maybe it was not, but if it’s not for me it has nothing to with them not being great writers. But not on par because of reasons unknown.

    So I hope my comment wasn’t felt like an attack or something, just an honest question 😀

    Good discussion is coming 😀

98. kevin1989:
    No you’re right but the way that scene was portrait was unnecessary, it was important to see that side of LF, but in that way? I don’t know if that was a fault of D&D or the director.

    It might have also been HBO’s fault. They may have wanted more nude scenes.

99. Mr Derp: I don’t have to “think” about whether someone is doing that or not, kevin.It happened to me in another thread a couple weeks ago.I was accused of “wanting to punch D&D in the nose” because I thought Rhaegal’s death was lame.It was bizarre to say the least.

    Yeah, sorry about that. I was way out of line.

100. kevin1989,

     ”… I can see that people disliked it but was it so bad that not a single scene per episode can be said that was at least great(?)”

     _____
     There were plenty of great scenes. For example, other commenters have praised the sheer beauty of the scene in S8e5 of Arya framed in silhouette (at 1:06 – 1:11 in the clip below). I especially liked the part where Arya calms the white horse (at 1:06 – 1:11).

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h02JHf8m_sI

     I think some major grievances are the dearth of “connective tissue” to form logical connections between plot points, head-scratching character behavior lacking build up or explanation, and overreliance on spectacle over story.

     Even those gripes are, in part, because we were so spoiled by the high quality of prior seasons that expectations were through the roof.

     Caveat: If somebody had diligently completed the source material – or at least provided a road map to the final destination – I doubt there would have been much whinging about how the story wrapped up.
     Major story lines patiently introduced and slowly developed thoughout the first six seasons (such as Jon Snow’s parentage; the mystery of the WWs and how to defeat them; the critical importance of Bran and his mystical powers; Sam’s book smarts; and PTWP and AA prophecies), kind of got compressed or jettisoned. I assume that’s because the showrunners never got the intended payoffs from the Big Kahuna.

101. Young Dragon,

     That’s possible, HBO was known for not shying away from some “bush” scenes.

     Ten Bears,

     Always a delight to read your comments 😀
     That scene was perfect you posted.

     And true, especially season 4. That was near perfection. For me only one scene was bad in that season. Jaime-rape-Cersei-scene which made no sense in the show. Everything else was perfect.

     And I think another problem was that the story became so big. Lot and lot of side characters came into play. For George that doesn’t matter. Then the main characters are just less in a book. Like he did in feast and dance. But still we read a book within a month. So the monthly fix for our main characters are always there with the books. Not for the show. The show is per season 9 weeks (First episode is week 0). And if a story needs to divide per 2 seasons meaning 2 times 9 = 18 weeks. Meaning the character fix need to be more into play in the show. Meaning that the main characters needs more to do per season, but if those stories move faster, so need the side character storylines. Meaning those were heavily shortened. And more deux-ex-machina need to be in place to let the main characters storyline moving.
     For me it wouldn’t mind if Dany’s storyline of season 5 and 6 was split into 3 seasons instead of 2. But I don’t think the average viewer would like that. It would have helped the storylines, but probably lowered the viewership if the story didn’t move fast enough for the main characters. Or the WW if those were come into play even a season later.
     I also think that GoT needed 12/15 episodes per season after the first. Would have given more room for the “filler-but-not-really-filler” episodes. Having an episode completely move away from the main story but focus on just a single storyline. I could see it happen in season 5. two episode fully focussed on Dorne and Iron Island as the midway episodes of the season.

     And yes, the big Kahuna kept those secrets to himself. He gave them a glymphs of the treasure, but they couldn’t touch it and use it. The story was after all “His precious”. And I can’t wait to read it.

     —

     I’m also a bit down today, just finish another rerun of one of my favorite shows: Fringe.
     And I have to say I like how that show concluded it story much better than how GoT did it. There were no plot-holes, or plot-lines left hanging. Everything made sense. It had a great emotional investment that came to a beautiful (bittersweet) fruition in the end. And the mysteries were also perfectly executed and not rushed. And I think I watch it again next year.
     For people loving sci-fi, this is one of the best out there (I know said it already in the past). The bond with the characters is perfect. And I like that the filler episodes almost everyone is important for the main storyline. I think less then 10 episodes of the 100 is not connected to the main storyline. Maybe even less then 5. And I like that the last season omitted filler episodes completely and had a storyline of 13 episodes that only contains the main-storyline.

     Sorry to talk about it so much. But it’s one of my favorite shows and I think many on this site would like that show, it’s story and characters and like where the story is going in the end.

102. kevin1989:
     Pigeon,

     I see you missing the point what I was saying. Nobody called the ones disliking season 8 haters, not me not a single on in this comment section.

     Then you’re missing the point that I wasn’t addressing you in particular. I didn’t respond to your post.

103. Mr Derp: Thank you for this.Some people can’t seem to accept that it’s possible to dislike the writing for season 8 and still have respect for what D&D have done overall.

     It’s really rather tiresome. 🙂

104. Pigeon,

     Sorry for that, I wasn’t meant to be so snappy. Was just a bit down couple of days and I couldn’t get a single happy though in my head and seeing all those negative reactions only fueled that further instead that I hoped that when I came here I become more happy like uselessly. So I became annoyed fast with too negative reactions. And unfortunate I was too late to edit my comment to something less snappy.

105. And unfortunate I was too late to edit my comment to something less snappy.

     Oh I do the same thing, and play the comment over in my head to make it somehow disappear. I would love it if we had edit buttons. (I also think kids should have volume controls and turn off switches….)

106. Ten Bears,

     If somebody had diligently completed the source material – or at least provided a road map to the final destination – I doubt there would have been much whinging about how the story wrapped up.
     Major story lines patiently introduced and slowly developed thoughout the first six seasons (such as Jon Snow’s parentage; the mystery of the WWs and how to defeat them; the critical importance of Bran and his mystical powers; Sam’s book smarts; and PTWP and AA prophecies), kind of got compressed or jettisoned.

     Yes, this exactly. Ah well if wishes were horses…

107. Ten Bears:
     Mango,

     Hey Mango!

     Slightly off-topic… I ran across a “meme” referencing your revision of “Bran the Broken” to the more apt name, “Bran the Useless.”

     https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8Jz8vrW4AUgx_J?format=jpg&name=small

     Yo! TB.

     Sorry for the late response. Working, working, travelling, travelling, Btw now and Dec, I have the schedule from hell.

108. Ten Bears:
     kevin1989,

     ”… I can see that people disliked it but was it so bad that not a single scene per episode can be said that was at least great(?)”

     _____There were plenty of great scenes. For example, other commenters have praised the sheer beauty of the scene in S8e5 of Arya framed in silhouette(at 1:06 – 1:11 in the clip below). I especially liked the part where Arya calms the white horse (at 1:06 – 1:11).

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h02JHf8m_sI

     I think some major grievances are the dearth of “connective tissue” to form logical connections between plot points, head-scratching character behavior lacking build up or explanation, and overreliance on spectacle over story.

     Even those gripes are, in part, because we were so spoiled by the high quality of prior seasons that expectations were through the roof.

     Caveat: If somebody had diligently completed the source material – or at least provided a road map to the final destination – I doubt there would have been much whinging about how the story wrapped up. Major story lines patiently introduced and slowly developed thoughout the first six seasons (such as Jon Snow’s parentage; the mystery of the WWs and how to defeat them; the critical importance of Bran and his mystical powers; Sam’s book smarts; and PTWP and AA prophecies), kind of got compressed or jettisoned. I assume that’s because the showrunners never got the intended payoffs from the Big Kahuna.

     Lots to agree with here. Captures the big picture of what went awry.

109. Young Dragon: It is not a writer’s responsibility to end their story the way the readers/viewers want. That would be impossible, as people want different things. All a writer can do is write their story the way they envision it, without being influenced by the wishes of fans. D&D remained true to the story and its characters until the end, and that’s all we can ask for.

     Being true to the story/characters does not mean one needs to give the viewers the end they want.

     Let us disagree on whether D&D remained true to the characters, story, their audience and the narrative. In my view, in GOT8, they did not.

110. Mr Derp:
     Jenny,

     Lol, Jon didn’t actually kill Dany.It’s all a big lie I tells ya!He faked it to go live out the rest of his days with her somewhere in Essos.Jon’s going to fake his death up North and rendezvous with Dany after Drogon picks him up somewhere in the Always North.

     When Bran said he’d go try and see where Drogon went he really meant that he’s in cahoots with Drogon, Dany, and Jon.Bran just went to his predetermined meeting spot where Drogon will pick him up too and take him to Essos to live out the rest of his days with Jon and Dany.Together, they will be the baddies for the sequel.

     Didn’t you know?

     hahhahhaaaa!

111. not to change the subject…just wanted to say kudos to Ramin Djawadi. we all knew he was likely to win the Emmy. Saw the GOT Experience tour and it was amazing, even though Ramin wasn’t conducting/performing!!!! Go see it if you can. Great way to say goodbye to the series. at the end of the show they did a fun ‘in memoriam’ of all the deceased GOT characters.

112. Mango: Being true to the story/characters does not mean one needs to give the viewers the end they want.

     That’s exactly what I said.

113. Mango: Being true to the story/characters does not mean one needs to give the viewers the end they want.

     Let us disagree on whether D&D remained true to the characters, story, their audience and the narrative.In my view, in GOT8, they did not.

     Thiiiiiiiiiiiiis. 💡💡💡

114. Young Dragon: That’s exactly what I said.

     We can agree on this part.

     Disagree on others.

115. Mango,

     Fair enough.

116. ash,

     I know, only the first 5 minutes. But those were already gone.

     ash,

     Agree. He has given the first step in some side characters like Griff, Dorne, Euron etc. But how can D&D guess what George wanted to do with them if he didn’t told them. That’s why they cut out Griff completely because he is a big guess at the end of Dance. Many ways that story could go. They could have chosen one themselves, but they chose to go what they known. Jorah and Dany etc. Dorne was also a mystery and to much connected to Griff, meaning that if you cut Griff you need to edit Dorne. Euron Island was connected to the dragonhorn (or maybe even the horn of winter) meaning that that story was also altered heavily. Also combine that, that they focus to much on the main instead of the side stories. That’s what the beginning was so great of GoT the side stories were fleshed out well.

     But I think another problem occurred that D&D didn’t think off. I think their original plan was having a bigger season 7 and 8. I think season 7 was at least suppose to be 10 episodes instead of 7. They got a budget from HBO and what their plan was worked with the budget for 10 episodes. Then the main-cast asked for a pay raise, not just a pay raise but they put at least one 0 after what they got before. That was all good if HBO was willing to pay that above the budget.
     But now comes the huge problem, they didn’t want to get paid per season, but per episode. Meaning that if a character appear in 10 episodes they need to be paid 10 times, with 7, 7 times. With 10 episodes they would have taken away 80% of the budget (give a take), with 7 around 50%. Compare that to earlier seasons where they got maybe 10% of the budget.

     I think the pay raise is the real problem that D&D altered their story-line in less episodes, and I also think HBO forced D&D to write shorter seasons because of it. But at the same time play the good guy in the media with “We wanted more episodes per season.”
     I think this also make sense why D&D were happy to go to Netflix and leave HBO. They were done with HBO messing with their story, and putting the blame on them while they decided it.

117. Young Dragon,

     “That’s what she said” Michael Scott 🙂

     Mango,

     I Agree with you here about endings of stories. Some stories needed a “known ending” that you see coming. Lord of the rings, Fringe for instance were 2 stories of it. You know where the ending will go because that’s the only thing making sense. And some other stories were better when the ending was unknown. Harry Potter for instance or Sons of anarchy where I think nobody saw that ending coming until it happened.
     For GoT I think it was best if they went with “known ending”. It has to make sense. I also think we should have known more about Dany’s turn already. Giving a good conflict of the heart for 2 seasons instead of 2 episodes.

     And what do you think about my theory off the shorter seasons that I posted above?

118. kevin1989,

     Hey Kevin. How do you know about the budget and the paychecks? Is it real or is it just a rumor? I’ve seen it floating around on the internet and related jokes like “KH’s inserted a term on his contract about being paid per ep/season not per line bc he only has two lines in s8, ‘I don’t want it’ and ‘you’re my queen'”, but I never take things like that seriously.
     My question is, is it information, like from an interview/announcement or is it just gossip? (and if it is information have you read it yourself?)
     Because it’s also been said that the budget for s8 was enormous and they could do whatever they wanted but they chose not to make more episodes anyway.

     I think that considering the complexity of ASOIAF the producers decided to simplify it by investing on central stories and characters and this became a trap once they embarked on the seasons they had to tamper with Dorne and ditch FAegon. It was a legit choice and imo not one to be discarded and scorned by the audience. They did well thinking that everybody would be tired if GOT went to ten seasons (including themselves).
     But the simpler the story becomes the more focus centers on few protagonist characters, Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Jamie, Cersei. Once they decided to shorten periods 7 and 8 there isn’t much room for the last three, obviously, while the other two had taken a life of their own already in s6 and it’d be a hard choice to decide to put their arcs back on track (and it’d probably mean that they couldn’t go with shortened s7-8). This is why it became all about Dany and Tyrion and the story felt so hollow in the end.
     Add to this a mix of fan-favorite preconceptions, modern political orthodoxy considerations, the results of mistakes (stuff such as having Dany come to Westeros like a hero and the audience rejoicing), and their own personal preferences that must have played a role (also legit), and also the wish to exceed cinematic expectations (all the special visuals CGI etc are at the expense of story-telling especially because of limited time) and the ending is what it is.

119. Efi,

     Was reported a while back. Maybe my % are wrong but I remember after season 6 that the news about the pay rise from the main 5 was in the news. Was Kit, Emilia, Peter, NCW and Lena. Strangely not Massie. It was also told that instead of being paid per season which is the case for season 1 till 6, they wanted being paid per episode.

     https://www.businessinsider.nl/game-of-thrones-actor-salaries-compared-to-highest-paid-tv-stars-2019-4?international=true&r=US

     Season 7 the main 5 got half a million per episode. Season 8 they got 1 million per episode and if I’m not mistaken they got paid for every episode even if they missed one on screen, but even if they only got paid per episode they were in that means Peter, Kit, Emilia and NCW got paid 6 milion per episode and Lena got paid 4 milion. That’s already a total of 28 milion for season 8. Then add what Sohpie, Isaac, Massie got. We pass already 1/3 of the budget. Add the smaller actors, I think Gwen etc got paid also a royal salary. Meaning the cast got a big portion of the budget. Compare that to season 1. If I’m not mistaken the biggest star got 100.000 (Peter if I’m not mistaken). And after that 50.000 (for Lena). For the whole season. And the Stark children even less. Meaning that for season 1 the salaries for the main-cast were far below the 1 million for the whole season. More budget was left for other things. And I think that’s also the case for directors, I think season 8 paid them much much more.

     And of course HBO is saying that, if season 8 was a hit they could say: See we had trust in them and gave them an open budget which they use wisely. We know where we invest in.
     If it failed they could say: They could have asked for more money or more episodes but they didn’t. The fault is not ours.
     I don’t believe for a second that HBO gave them an open budget. Maybe they could asked for more, more easily than before, and add that to the budget. But that’s not how business works, they are not going to give more money without question. If D&D would ask for maybe 10.000 more they will ask: Where is it needed for? Does it really need there or can’t you just cut those Ice Spiders you want? Just cut them, it won’t bring in more money for us.
     If they really gave an open budget I know for certain D&D would have put much more action in it with the WW. We would have gotten Ice Spiders and more, probably 2 big WW episodes. They were so excited that they finally had a wight polar bear in 7×06. So they would have added everything they want. And for me it’s already very obvious when David Nutter cut the cold opening of the attack on Last Hearth. And some other things that seem to be missing. The budget was gone.

     comment cont.

120. Efi,

     Of course they were right that 10 seasons would be too much of a stretch. But HBO was already willing to alter their airdates. So why not split seasons when needed. Having 16 episodes in a season with a break halfway through, with two 8episode parts. With 6 to 9 months between the split. A bit like Vikings. Or having less time between the season like 9 months. They needed that much time for season 8 because they added 2 big battles. But what if they decided to cut the story in 2 parts, they could have aired both within 2 years. And also they could have changed how the story was structured. Which was already discussed here. Wall down season 6. Having a 10 episode season 7 about the WW and Dany coming to the rescue there. Having the meeting between Jon and Dany there. Makes sense he will fall in love with the hero who saved them and not seeing her dark side. Having a 6 episode season 8 for the last about Dany vs Cersei. It would have worked nicely. And if they went that route there was no need to exclude Bran in season 5. He could have been at the wall just after Jon got resurrected and meeting Sansa and Jon there and being presence with the battle against Ramsay. For me having Dany Jon meeting before the WW battle strewed the story a lot. GoT works better in chaos which had a final resolution at the end of the season. Season 7 and 8 were too neatly focused.

     And I agree, too much focus on the main story. I liked season 7 and 8 because those stories were great. Dany was the best in those 2 seasons for me. But I wished more side stories. I don’t mind that they do what many shows do, take a short cut with side stories for a couple of episodes and then return to the main story. For instance I just finished a show got fringe. Season 1 till 4 had it’s filler episodes, and season 5 was all main storyline. But what makes that ending better then I think GoT ending season was that even when everything was about the main story, it had room in the episodes for the side stuff. Maybe 1 or 2 points would be addressed per episode, and the rest was characters being together, having conversations, loving each other etc, they could have done the last season in maybe just 6 episodes, but they decided to give enough room for every problem that resulted in 13 episodes. Which is much better. How much I love season 8, too much was being addressed plotwise per episode. They were more: Does not adding this make a problem storywise? Instead of what fringe did: Does adding this hurt the story? If it’s no, add it, it will only help in the end. For me it’s always the best to take everything that could be put on screen on screen, only delete the scenes that doesn’t fit. LotR is 4 hours long per episode but doesn’t feel long because everything fits. And only 40 minute max of action.

     But I think the butterfly effect was already into play in season 2, which in my eyes needed 12 episodes. Which I also feel for season 3 till 6 (and of course 7 and 8).

121. kevin1989,

     Not open budget, but they did have an enormous budget.
     Don’t be so disappointed about the spiders. Not all stories of old Nan are supposed to be true, lol. The polar bear was nice touch, though, I suppose they chose it instead of spiders for not being accused of copying LotR. Now that I think about it, did it coincide with Leonardo’s fighting the bear? [lol, time flies. or was it a little later?]
     Or perhaps the bear was supposed to mean something for the story [like Jon realizing that the NK could resurrect other beings as well, like bears, horses and giants and even dragons]. Without it being explained in-universe, even that, superb as it was on screen, led to nothing and it’s exactly what I’m talking about when I say that much of the special effects and the visuals seem to be at the expense of the story.
     There’s nothing to convince me that they didn’t give up half of the s8 story while editing s7 because of the simplified story-telling and the time limitations. Since screen-time and budget are limited no matter how enormous, some things feel like they’re there just for being there and lead nowhere. The polar bear is a case in point.

122. kevin1989,

     Agreed, it would have been nice to see it all on sceen; it’d have been better if if followed the book closer (I think I might have been bored though). Given the success of GOT perhaps HBO would have accomodated every choice D&D reached. But ultimately it wasn’t HBO’s decision on how to distribute the story into the seasons, it was the producers’.
     You are giving way too much emphasis on the Jon-Dany story. They’ll not meet in the books before the end of WoW, so that’s literally the 11th hour. (and I don’t believe it’ll be a love story in the books, I think he’ll use her). The mistake here was that Dany -for many- was portrayed like a hero instead of a cruel dictator. I never bought that, and I actually hate it that they’re insinuating Jon was in love with her in the show (for fear of disappointing the fans, I guess).
     But, whatever.

123. Interesting little titbit from one of the Emmy voters,

     ‘I have voted for Game of Thrones in the past, but it went the bro-iest it’s ever been — it was frat-boy central — and even though I didn’t mind the ending that everybody else did, I do think they lost their way when they didn’t have a book.’

     They have voted for Killing Eve. I don’t know if they are referring to the show or the creators with the frat-boy comment.

124. Efi,

     oh true, I’m not disappointed that we didn’t get Ice Spiders, but I think for what D&D and we wanted as perfect was much more costly than we ever could think. That would mean more then double the budget or more.

     Efi,

     True, that’s why I think the whole Jon getting Dany to help the WW will not be in the books. She will just get a vision of it and acts on it. She will probably not be in the north before halfway through the last book. And after that the whole going south and bombing KL to the ground will happen. And the Jon Dany love will be less important or more less long. It will be over before it could really start.

125. Jenny:
     Interesting little titbit from one of the Emmy voters,

     ‘I have voted for Game of Thrones in the past, but it went the bro-iest it’s ever been — it was frat-boy central — and even though I didn’t mind the ending that everybody else did, I do think they lost their way when they didn’t have a book.’

     They have voted for Killing Eve.I don’t know if they are referring to the show or the creators with the frat-boy comment.

     I don’t get that particular criticism either. I don’t even know what they’re trying to say with that. How are they going to say that the show has been the “bro-iest” its ever been when D&D pretty much went out of their way to have the women characters dominate the last couple seasons? It would’ve been nice if that person gave examples instead of just using PC buzz words.

     Besides, that same person likes “This Is Us”, the most excessively schmaltzy, formulaic, drama-for-the-sake-of-drama show on tv today, so they pretty much lost me with that one.

126. Mr Derp,

     The only thing that fits that description (in this season) is maybe the Brienne/Jaime hookup. At a party, after getting drunk playing never have I ever, shaming her for being a virgin (which was expected of an unmarried high born lady but whatever) instant regret, comments about her ‘down there’ and abandoned in the middle of the night. It was a plot from a million teen drama/comedies. Other than that I have no clue, perhaps the Sansa conversation with the Hound, a moment where I wished that there was a woman in the writers room. So basically episode 4. Other than that, I really don’t know.

     I don’t think it became any more frat-boy like than it was during the extreme nudity days. Mystery. I do enjoy seeing how people vote, I’d love to see more ballots. I imagine I’d be thinking ‘what are you talking about?’ quite a lot. I have no time for ‘This is Us’ either.

127. Jenny: The only thing that fits that description (in this season) is maybe the Brienne/Jaime hookup

     Perhaps, but you could counter that with Arya’s aggressive desire to have sex with Gendry, so it really is hard to know what bro moments that person is referring to. Would really like to know the specifics of that criticism. It sounds like they are trying to score political points more than give a legit criticism.

     Either way, if that quote is accurate, this is all the evidence one needs to realize that Emmy voters are just as subjective as we are.

128. Presumably you refer to Dany in terms of S8 not staying true to her character. I’d argue that Jon, Sansa, Arya remained true to character in S8 though.

     For me Dany was leading up to the final villain as had been predicted by many, the ground work had been laid from S3 but the final delivery was poorly done with too much ambiguity in order to deliver maximum shock value.

129. Jon Snowed: For me Dany was leading up to the final villain as had been predicted by many, the ground work had been laid from S3 but the final delivery was poorly done with too much ambiguity in order to deliver maximum shock value.

     This.

     I would say the ground work started way back in season 1, but I agree, the way it went down did not feel organic (to me) mostly because D&D were overly concerned with “shock value” and “gotcha” moments. They wanted Dany’s heel turn to be a surprise, and in doing that, they really rushed her descent into “madness” or whatever it was that took hold of her in “The Bells”.

     I’m still trying to make up my own fan-fiction to get the bad taste out of my mouth, but I have made peace with the final season at this point.

     I’m just going to assume that Dany had some earplugs in and was listening to music, so she never actually heard the bells ring for surrender to begin with. Yup, that’s what I’m going with 🙂

130. Mr Derp,

     Indeed, giving it a bit more thought, I have sometimes wished that they had more women in the writers room, or at least consulted some, perhaps they did I don’t know. The writing for the female characters hasn’t always been great (despite their best intentions) I have always had a massive issue with Sansa’s storyline from S5 onwards, and to have someone on the show come out and say Sansa disliked Dany because she was ‘very pretty’ made me want to scream. I really don’t get Sansa as a character in the last couple of seasons, and she was apparently one of their favs. Again though, this person might be on about something entirely different. But yes, all opinions are subjective, they might be more informed but I don’t think you can be objective about art and entertainment.

     Mr Derp: This.

     I would say the ground work started way back in season 1, but I agree, the way it went down did not feel organic (to me) mostly because D&D were overly concerned with “shock value” and “gotcha” moments.They wanted Dany’s heel turn to be a surprise, and in doing that, they really rushed her descent into “madness” or whatever it was that took hold of her in “The Bells”.

     I agree with this too.

131. Jenny:
     Mr Derp,
     At a party, after getting drunk playing never have I ever, shaming her for being a virgin (which was expected of an unmarried high born lady but whatever)

     While it’s true that it’s expected of a unmarried highborn to be a virgin, the reason Brienne was unmarried was because all of her potential suitors thought she was ugly. That’s definitely a sore spot for her. I don’t think Tyrion was trying to shame her. He didn’t know her history and didn’t know pointing out she was still a virgin would hurt her the way it did.

132. Jenny: Indeed, giving it a bit more thought, I have sometimes wished that they had more women in the writers room, or at least consulted some, perhaps they did I don’t know.

     Agreed.

     I don’t know if you ever watched “Seinfeld”, but there’s an episode where Jerry and George are tasked with writing a screenplay. One of the characters in the screenplay is a woman, and the two of them had absolutely no idea how to write her character at all and it became a running joke in the show. They even struggled with how she would simply say hello to other characters.

     I’m always reminded of this episode when the subject of women writers comes up. Since there was such an abundance of women characters in GoT, I think it would’ve been a great idea to consult a woman writer.

133. Young Dragon,

     I’ve never known Tyrion to be purposefully cruel to people who didn’t deserve it (in the show) but I thought this was cruel and out of character for Tyrion. It should be an assumed thing, there was no need to bring it up, it was a blatant setup for her to leave and Jaime to follow. It was just about the laziest way to bring that sex scene about, so full of cliche’s, I wish they hadn’t bothered. I have since referred to it as the ‘college party hookup’ that’s exactly what it was. I can’t tell you how many people thought Jaime slept with her out of pity, and as much as it makes me cringe, it’s a perfectly reasonable takeaway from what was presented in that episode, he regretted it instantly. I used to listen to a lot of podcasts during the show, and people wrote in referring to Jaime as a ‘f*ckboy’ was that the intention? That’s why I think it fits the ‘frat-boy’ description. I don’t really know anyone that liked it, they either thought it was out of character for Jaime, or total fan service, those that wanted Jaime and Brienne to get together in some way were left totally dissatisfied. Weird scenes.

     Mr Derp,

     Yes! I love Seinfeld. I think it would have been good to get some women involved, particularly when dealing with victims of sexual assault and trauma. I’m not saying that men know nothing of course, but it could have been beneficial.

134. Jenny,

     They were all “guessing” truths that they already knew about people to get them to drink as part of the game. And your arguments are contradicting one another. Is there no shame in Brienne being a virgin or was Tyrion being cruel for bringing it up? If there’s no shame, why wouldn’t Tyrion bring it up, not knowing Brienne’s history?

     If people truly thought Jaime slept with Brienne out of pity, they are disregarding their entire arc that spanned from the end of season 2 to the fourth episode of season 8. And Jaime didn’t regret it in the way you’re thinking. He didn’t think he deserved Brienne’s love. That’s why he left.

135. Jenny,

     Perhaps it’s just a way of saying “what’s Bran doing in the South – it should have been Sansa” ?

     Seriously, the bros are none other than the surviving fav males and the roles they assumed. Add D&D; plus the gratuitous scenes of women apologizing to /crying to/begging men (omg all of them, Dany, Sansa, Brienne, Cersei), male fighting, male fantasy sex scenes, and there you have it, the fraternity in all its glory.

     Sansa’s crown seems indeed a poor compensation (add the parallels with Elizabeth I and it even gets worse).

     (forgive my snark everybody)

136. Jenny: Interesting little titbit from one of the Emmy voters,

     ‘I have voted for Game of Thrones in the past, but it went the bro-iest it’s ever been — it was frat-boy central’

     I have no idea what that means. Can someone translate it into English English, please?

137. Young Dragon,

     Ah that’s a fair point, I should have said that it was cruel of the writers rather than Tyrion (although it’s not a leap to assume that she is sensitive about being unmarried in the first place, and he didn’t let it go after Jaime intervened) they know her history, and they embarrassed her for all to see. It was unnecessary imo, except to set up the following scene, which was Jaime arriving to fix the problem for his best mate, hence the assumption of pity. I know that wasn’t the case, but I fully understand people who thought otherwise. Taken individually, these events are fine, but together it builds a picture of nothing more than a drunken hook up, or ‘hit it and quit it’ as people have also described it, a plot we have seen in many teen movies. I still think it was lazy and cliche.

     As for Jaime thinking he didn’t deserve her, I never saw people saying that until NCW gave an interview about it weeks afterwards, there was no indication of that in the episode.

138. Grandmaester Flash,

     bro-iest lacks a consistent definition, but it basically refers to “bro culture”, which is allegedly a sub-culture of young men, most often associated with fraternities and sports, that are all about partying.

     The term bro culture has been adopted by the media to refer to a misogynist culture, mostly stereotyping it as comprising mostly of wealthy white men.

139. Grandmaester Flash,

     I don’t know either, the comment above yours is probably the best guess.

140. Efi,

     radical feminist?

141. Reek,

     Me???? LOL.
     I love the boys. Just not when they’re like that. It was far too much if you put it all together.

142. Efi,

     What was far too much?

143. Sorry guys, I feel bad for bringing it up. I hope nobody bothers to respond to the my previous comment (below) I really didn’t mean to get into the specifics of the plot. My original point was merely that this sequence of events could fall under ‘frat-boy’ or ‘dude bro’ writing to an Emmy voter, which people will either agree or disagree with. My personal opinion is irrelevant, apologies for derailing the thread, do you ever just wish you could delete a post? lol

     Jenny:
     Young Dragon,

     Ah that’s a fair point, I should have said that it was cruel of the writers rather than Tyrion (although it’s not a leap to assume that she is sensitive about being unmarried in the first place, and he didn’t let it go after Jaime intervened) they know her history, and they embarrassed her for all to see.It was unnecessary imo, except to set up the following scene, which was Jaime arriving to fix the problem for his best mate, hence the assumption of pity.I know that wasn’t the case, but I fully understand people who thought otherwise.Taken individually, these events are fine, but together it builds a picture of nothing more than a drunken hook up, or ‘hit it and quit it’ as people have also described it, a plot we have seen in many teen movies.I still think it was lazy and cliche.

     As for Jaime thinking he didn’t deserve her, I never saw people saying that until NCW gave an interview about it weeks afterwards, there was no indication of that in the episode.

144. Mr Derp,

     I see it now.

     Personally I couldn’t get past This is Us the second episode. It was all over the top drama just for drama’s sake. Not even one single uplifting moment in those 2 episodes. And it felt like they checked every burden box there is. I can see why people like it, but it’s not for me.

145. Jon Snowed,

     True, I wish they had her more darker before. She was too white-washed in previous seasons. But same thing for other’s like Tyrion. Look at how dark he is in Dance in the books. I wish they had given it a more Walter White storyline. Every season a bit darker. And they shouldn’t have made excuses for her behavior with she is the hero of the story, this is what needs to be done. But Dany being the dragon princess was their selling point so maybe that’s why they white-wash her in previous seasons.

146. Mr Derp,

     Agree, but maybe it was more that Dany was promotion material. Season 2 or 3 even had: Choose your side. She needed to be shown as a hero so we would be interesting in hero story, and wanting her to go to westeros. But that decision was not right. I also think they should have been honest with Emilia at the beginning. We saw in season 8 how she acts Dany when she knows the end game, who Dany will become and really is. And she played the fall perfectly. I think if they have been completely honest to Emilia even back in season 1, she would have acted the decline better on her own. (A bit like Alan Rickman acted Snape better because he knew the ending).

     And I think Dany had a bad case of “Annoyed by mosquito”. She wasn’t attacking the people of KL but a damn mosquito that keeps getting away.

147. kevin1989,

     Yep, taste is subjective. Everyone has their likes and dislikes. IMO, “This Is Us” is a show for people with an unhealthy addiction to drama just for drama’s sake, but I’m sure some people would say that GoT fans have an unhealthy addition to tits and dragons…which isn’t entirely untrue 🙂

148. Jenny,

     I wish we got her Vale storyline from the books in season 5 and 6. And having her help Jon because he send her a letter. Wouldn’t it be awesome it Bran season 6 storyline would have been in season 5. Having him take Jon south to winterfell. At the same time Sansa has her Vale storyline and halfway through season 6 she got her army north to help Jon fight the battle. It would have been awesome if she would have played LF there instead the other way around.

     Mr Derp,

     “A show about nothing.” George

     Amazing comedy. If you liked Seinfeld I recommend “It’s always sunny in Philadelphia”. The first season is a choir to get through, but only 6 episodes. The second season is amazing, Dany deVito was added to the cast and from that moment that show is amazing. And not too much episodes per season which makes it better with watching.

149. kevin1989: And I think Dany had a bad case of “Annoyed by mosquito”. She wasn’t attacking the people of KL but a damn mosquito that keeps getting away.

     Ah, so THAT’S what it was! I thought she just had her headphones on the whole time and never heard the bells ring out for surrender, but it was a damn pesky mosquito! Just like the old “I was swerving to avoid a bee in my car” excuse when people driving drunk get pulled over for erratic driving.

     kevin1989: I think if they have been completely honest to Emilia even back in season 1, she would have acted the decline better on her own. (A bit like Alan Rickman acted Snape better because he knew the ending).

     I actually think that’s a good point. I wonder if D&D specifically chose to keep Dany’s ultimate fate a secret just because it’s hard to expect anyone to keep such a huge secret for that long. Think about it. Emilia would’ve known Dany’s true ending for almost an entire decade. She was barely able to keep it a secret for a year, and I believe she even told her mother the real ending.

150. Jenny,

     That joke was a bit strange, but I found it funny because of one thing. Why did Podrick drink? 😉 Was it that he got his money back because he didn’t do anything with the ladies in season 3. Probably he just sang for them.

     As for Jaime not thinking he deserved Brienne was my interpretation also, he sees Brienne as a saint and a honorable woman. He looks up to her. But he states also that Cersei is a hateful woman, and so is he, a hateful man (not a woman ;)). He really hates himself for what he did. And I can see why, how can you forgive yourself when you pushed a boy out of a window and that boy became crippled, and more he became some lesser human being because of it. And the rest he did. He finally got his humanity back in season 3, but also the burden of that.

151. Jenny,

     I didn’t mind reading it 🙂

     Mr Derp,

     Agree, same with Grey’s anatomy. I loved that show when the drama was nicely balanced with the fun-mood and the nice humor in it. But when it became only drama I started to hate it, till once again humor was back again. I loved fleshed out drama if it’s combined with humor (Like fringe if you know it).
     And as for GoT Funny thing is, GoT is one of my favorite shows. But I don’t care for tits in my life. And the dragons are my least favorite part of the show. I liked it when the dragons were the enemy like in 7×04 and 8×05. Or a good battle with them in 8×03 but that was the only moment with the final of season 1 that I liked them. I choose Arya over them. Or the direwolves.

     But I think people who love violence can maybe be attracted to GoT. Like the whole Theon story in season 3 which for me was awful to watch. but I think there are some creepy people who loved those scenes.

     Mr Derp,

     That’s true. That’s so amazing about Emilia. Her excitement about the show. But I think Emilia would have pulled it off. And I wonder how Dany will be in the books. I think she will be darker but also more of a “politician”, I use this word for a reason. Many politicians are known for acting all happy and concerned, manipulating the voters to give them their vote. I think maybe Dany will be all dark with her thoughts but she can hide it in the open, nobody else sees it and she can manipulate very good at the end of winds. We already saw she is good in manipulating in 3×04 how she got her army. I think her followers see that mask she puts on as the truth but we know the truth. I wish that Emilia could have shown us that side of Dany. We saw it in season 8, that one moment she was all out of control with Jon, the don’t say it to your sister scene. But the next she was completely calm again and in control. The two facets of Dany.

152. kevin1989: But I think people who love violence can maybe be attracted to GoT. Like the whole Theon story in season 3 which for me was awful to watch. but I think there are some creepy people who loved those scenes.

     Yea, I usually fast-forward through the Theon scenes in season 3. I don’t have anything against them, but it’s not the kind of thing that I’d watch if I had another option.

     I just find it strange when people get all cringy when Arya has sex or if there is nudity in the show, but these same people have no problem with the general violence in the show.

     Yes, that “sexposition” scene in season 1 episode 7 was poorly done, and it’s just silly, but I find it strange how so many people are up in arms about it, but never complained about any gratuitous unnecessary violence in the show.

     It’s always fascinated me how some people are all about violence, and cheer when certain people get killed in the most brutal fashion, but get squeamish when it comes to sex.

153. kevin1989,

     To be fair, they were laughing about Tysha 30 seconds before so that drink was obviously very strong. I think sober, Tyrion would have known that this ‘unattractive’ and masculine lady would have had trouble finding a husband, and would probably have been very sensitive about that, but Young Dragon was correct in their first response to me, given his drunken state it wasn’t cruelty on his part. Pod drinking was interesting, he either did it for Brienne, or he was admitting something himself, I like the idea of him singing, that’s lovely!

     I think the same about Jaime, but I must admit that I didn’t pick that up from the episode, I got that from NCW, and even he didn’t say it straight away. His first EW interview mentioned the ‘classic oh no moment’ after sleeping with her, and his unbreakable connection to Cersei. It was later that he endorsed an article saying that he didn’t deserve her. There were all of these wild theories about him going to kill Cersei after Ep 4, or that he was addicted and couldn’t let her go (provided by D&D). Episode 5 rolls around and it backs up the addiction angle, it was like his soul had left his body and he didn’t care about anything, just Cersei. He didn’t care about innocent people and never did, and he told Cersei that they were the only ones that mattered, it all seemed like he had made his choice for love, and that was the end of it. I took on the ‘Jaime didn’t deserve Brienne’ idea because it was more palatable, not because the show expressed that, it didn’t give me any indication that he thought about Brienne for a second once he’d left, he was all for legging it to Pentos to raise his baby with Cersei, she was the one he wanted (despite her sending an assassin, but lets not quibble about that).

     It was difficult to glean anything else when we didn’t see Jaime/Brienne together again until he left, and them getting together was hardly the height of romance. I just feel like they should have ditched the assassination attempt, and spent that 5-6 minutes showing Jaime and Brienne manoeuvre in their relationship instead.

154. Jenny: It was difficult to glean anything else when we didn’t see Jaime/Brienne together again until he left, and them getting together was hardly the height of romance. I just feel like they should have ditched the assassination attempt, and spent that 5-6 minutes showing Jaime and Brienne manoeuvre in their relationship instead.

     This actually brings up an interesting point. Jaime knew that Cersei paid Bronn to have him killed, yet Jaime STILL chose to go back to Cersei anyway? I know that he cared about their unborn child, but damn…

155. Mr Derp,

     I would personally call that a great big massive plot hole. The whole thing would have been so much better without that scene. For all Jaime knew, she’d have the Mountain kill him on sight.

156. Mr Derp,

     Same, for me I rather see 2 people having a love scene than violence for violence sake.

     Jenny,
     I think nobody would mind if Pod would sing for them. Lovely voice does Daniel have.

     Agree I wish they have omitted that Bronn storyline. I love Bronn but for the final season he should just have ended in the end, that storyline was only there so we would have some Bronn scenes. I would have rather got Brienne Jaime story.

     And I think Jaime also expected that he would die by Dany’s hand so I think that’s why he left without saying anything. And I think Brienne knew that.

157. Jenny,

     I thought this was cruel and out of character for Tyrion. It should be an assumed thing, there was no need to bring it up, it was a blatant setup for her to leave and Jaime to follow. It was just about the laziest way to bring that sex scene about, so full of cliche’s, I wish they hadn’t bothered.

     I totally agree. I liked the game they played, a great send up to an earlier one (season one) But how it was handled, no. and tyrionn using his lack of a sex life (wonder if there was a phyisical or psychologixal reason for that) for bringing it up and asking Jaime the question of down there. Maybe they had them go to bed together because they wanted Jaime to be conflicted and left for Cersie. Personally I thought they should have left it with him knighting her. Let her end on a moment of joy, not one of dispair. And must admit her last scene finishing his page in the book showed the honor, mercy and and strong (brave) Jamie knighted her with

158. Mr Derp,

     t’s always fascinated me how some people are all about violence, and cheer when certain people get killed in the most brutal fashion, but get squeamish when it comes to sex.

     Yep. Esp when we are talking about a young woman coming of age. I loved that they went there, and at the same time didnt find the need to show it

159. Thinking about the violence in the show, there are probably only a handful of upsetting scenes for me (I may have forgotten some). I can easily dissociate from over the top violence, and sword fighting violence, but when it feels real and it’s drawn out, I get really squeemish. I remember watching Saving Private Ryan for the first time, I was nearly ill, and I still squint through it. The ‘abdominal surgery’ scene in Prometheus nearly had me crawling under my chair at the cinema I was so horrified.

     In the show, all of Theon’s torture scenes, can’t want watch them a 2nd time. I like the Tudor period so I have seen a few botched beheadings, but it still freaks me out, so Theon killing Rodrik is another. The rat and the barrel at Harrenhal S2, and Arya stabbing Polliver through the throat S4. Brienne smacking the Hound with a rock, and Jon punching Ramsey for an uncomfortably long time, proper blows to the face are tough to watch. Finally the crucifixion in Meereen.

160. Mr Derp,

     Need I spell it all out?
     Oh, where to begin?

     The bros:

     -the series begins with another discussion about balls.
     -Sansa apologizing to Tyrion for leaving him? Of course it’s because they whitewashed Tyrion so much. Sansa’s perspective goes down the drain, as no one bothers to point out that it was a marriage without her will and he belonged to a family who slaughtered hers; from her pov she wasn’t obliged to stay with him at all, but she apologizes anyway.
     -pointless sex scene with Bronn ( I suppose having dinner at a tavern and having the waitresses talking wouldn’t have been interesting?)
     -Cersei deciding to have sex with Euron; another woman submitting to male desires for an army, ships and some missing elephants. Not entirely ooc for Cersei though, no matter how much her fans protest –but then again she did become queen for choosing her mates and not being treated like a brood mare, which is exactly how Euron does treat her.
     -Arya taking over and having sex with Gentry. Another male fantasy. People actually liked this scene, I hated it. It was like a job interview (rather not ooc for show Arya, but we didn’t have her perspective on this issue before anyway so I don’t have a clear opinion on this). Question missing for hiring full-time job: how big is your d@@@? I suppose she’s had a test drive and then decided it wasn’t big enough. (seriously, why is it that men like that stuff? it takes away your agency)
     -Dany begging Jon, eps 4 and 5. Over and over. And for his magic d@@@. Ah, this one’s my favorite. Of course people see the Cersei-Euron dynamic, but no one recognizes that Jon actually bedded Dany for her armies and dragons. It’s Cersei-Euron inversed. In his own story, Jon is Cersei and Dany uses sex to control him. When she realizes she won’t have it, she goes ballistic.
     – The awkward Jamie-Brienne party hook-up.
     – the weird, completely unfortunate Sansa-Sandor dialog.
     – The shitty “down there” Jamie-Tyrion dialog
     – Brienne begging Jamie. Hm! Talk about the exemplification of the beauty and the beast trope going awry. No, sweet Brienne, the beast won’t change no matter how you try; ask Sansa; she knows.
     – Sansa apologizing to Jon? No one knows exactly what for (hence the conflict from script to official summary), but they felt the need to put it out there anyway. Of course the boys in the story had nothing to do with the firestorming of KL, only Sansa should have kept her mouth shut. (that is not my reading though).
     – and in spite of the mess they caused, the boys: one ends up king of all (well, minus one) without ever having done anything to deserve it; the other ends up his councilor despite his crimes; the third gets away with it with just a simple (implied time-limited) exile where he gets to live with his best buddies (his real crime was never addressed).
     – so the boys are with their buddies, the girls are all alone. Dany gone, Cersei too, Sansa queen like Elizabeth notorious bachelorette, Arya also alone, Brienne too, Yara too (? presumably)

     If all this is not the bros fraternity, I don’t know what is. Mind you, I don’t think Martin intends to go there.
     I am aware that this will cause another round of discussions here (it’s not my fault, I was provoked, lol).

161. Mr Derp,

     I forgot something.
     Add to the list. Cersei crying in the arms of Jamie. Of course, they’re about to die. But that was ooc for show Cersei. Cersei who blew up the sept and walked the walk of shame for her children would know that she’d have to face the consequences of her actions bravely; she wouldn’t shed a single tear.

     But of course the bros wouldn’t understand brave women. They think brave means dragons and kicking ass which earns you ending up as a character with complicated acronyms.
     (forgive my snark once again it’s not aimed at anyone directy, it’s only meant to go to the outer space)

162. Efi,

     First off, I’m sorry for not continuing that last conversation we had back in early August. As I said in that thread, I didn’t feel I could devote the time our discussion deserved because my head was in a bad place due to some difficult offline issues. However, I felt this was a good opportunity to revisit some of that debate without re-opening a dead thread.

     I think some of your readings here are based on theories unsupported by the show and its supplementary materials, such the Jonsa Undercover!Lover theory. I think this is why few recognize the Euron-Cersei dynamic — because this reading is reliant on a theory that never came to fruition as there is no canonical evidence to support it.

     In contrast, Euron and Cersei made a very clear deal and sex-based transaction (although, Euron jumped the gun on his end). Euron gets to bed a queen. Cersei gets her justice for Myrcella and she gets Euron’s fleets. There was no such sex-based deal or transaction made between Jon and Dany.

     But more than what you’ve listed as “bros” doing far too much, I feel this Undercover!Lover/Political!Jon fan theory has a very damaging and insulting message that hurts both characters’ integrity (Jon and Dany): a man must control a woman with sex so she’ll do the right thing. I’m not sure why Jon would need to control Dany — at this point, Dany hasn’t broken her word and she’s followed through with her final decisions.

     Dany already vowed to fight the Night King weeks and weeks before they had sex. Additionally, Dany vowed to fight for her own reasons: she has seen the Night King and his AoTD is real and the Night King killed her dragon. Her dragon died in the process of gathering evidence of the undead threat for Cersei. I feel it’s reasonable for Dany to want to pursue this. Sansa’s worried about Cersei, why not Dany?

     Likewise, I don’t know how Dany was using sex to control Jon…? She was yearning for intimacy because they were in a consensual intimate relationship before the R+L=J bomb dropped, which sent Jon into a Yikes! My aunt! I can’t! tailspin. Dany yearning for intimacy in a strange place post-war after losses is understandable and doesn’t have to be based on a desire to control him. How would sex control Jon? He’s not exactly sex-crazed, nor is she.

     Sansa apologizing to Tyrion for leaving him?

     Wouldn’t it be hard to explain why Sansa disappeared from the wedding Joffrey was killed at — the murder Tyrion was tried and convicted of and nearly executed for. None of this was Sansa’s fault, absolutely, she was taken away by Littlefinger — but it’s not Tyrion’s fault either, nor was the marriage or the crimes of his family members.

     Sansa apologizing to Jon? No one knows exactly what for (hence the conflict from script to official summary), but they felt the need to put it out there anyway.

     I partly agree with this but it could be a case of Sansa apologizing for one thing (not being able to prevent banishment) and Jon not being able to fully forgive her for another (telling his secret despite her promise).

     Sansa queen like Elizabeth notorious bachelorette, Arya also alone, Brienne too, Yara too (? presumably)

     I don’t think any character really ended up with everything they wanted, including the men. Sansa no longer has her family around her but she does have Northern independence with herself as the North’s queen, no longer having to answer to anyone. She likewise doesn’t have to remain a bachelorette if that’s her choice. Arya chose her path, to explore the lands unknown vis a vis Elissa Farmon. Brienne is acknowledged and put into a position of authority in her chosen field as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Yara lost Theon but I doubt she’s alone.

163. Efi,

     Crying is not the opposite of brave. And Cersei is still the Cersei from season 1 till 6. Who cried many times throughout the show. In season 7 she became robot-Cersei just for one single thing: Not feeling the pain and guilt of the death of her children. But then something happened. She became pregnant again, and that robot-cersei was needed to win the war against Dany. But once Dany won that robot-Cersei-mask seems to be falling off. And she wasn’t crying because she herself was going to die, but because her child was going to die. Not all out of character for a mother, and not out of character from somebody who pregnant and fueled with hormones all the time.

     And as for Jon bedding Dany for her army, that’s not what’s happening (in the show). She already have her army for the north when Vyserion died, and before Jon bedded her. Him bedding her was maybe a month later after the dragonpit scene.

     Brienne is not alone, she has Pod and other’s. Like Jon got Thormund (which I think is not a romantic bond, but who knows), Brienne has Pod. Cersei is death and alone because of her own making. Same as Dany. But Dany didn’t die alone, not really she was death before she could feel alone, and once again because of her own making (Killing many many people). Sansa being alone is bittersweet I agree, I was never on the that her ending was happy. You can see that she wanted Arya to be with her till the end, but she let Arya go west, which shows that Sansa has grown, she knew Arya wouldn’t be happy in one place, so she chose Arya over herself. Compare that to season 1. Arya also choose her own way, she is not alone because other’s made her alone. She is an adventurer.

     As for Sansa saying sorry, why is this a woman vs man thing? She says sorry because it put Tyrion on trial. She also saying sorry because Tyrion treated her right, never forced himself on her, she learned now that she would have been safe with him, (not really if you count the trial). She knew the difference now between Tyrion and for instance Ramsay, and that looks are not the thing important in marriage. So this saying sorry is nothing more then Sansa have gotten life lessons and got some wisdom, how is that bad?

     Balls and bronn sexscene I agree. I didn’t care for both, and they were unnecessary.

     Arya, why is it wrong when woman are the one choosing to have sex? I found that scene liberating for Arya. She choose to be with Gendry. And yes she left him. Normally it’s the other way around in movies. Boy meets girl. They do it. Boy was only after that one night he left. Here it’s with Arya, she always “was in love” with Gendry in a way. And she was about to die (probably), and she wanted to know how it is to make love. Is that so strange that a woman that is of Arya’s age in season 8 wants to know how it is before she dies. And she chose somebody who she trusted.

     Cersei was manipulated Euron. So how is this Euron get’s what he wants? Cersei made a choice there, she was the one holding the power, and Euron was too stupid too see it, he even didn’t see it when Tyrion spoke to her in 8×04. She used Euron, Not the other way around. Like she said in season 2 to Tyrion: That little worm between your legs does all the thinking. (not the only time man are shown to be the dumb sexes in GoT and the woman the smart one, lady Onella and her son?)

     Dany also had the power here. And why wouldn’t she beg Jon to keep his mouth shut if she saw what it would lead to, she knew Sansa better than Jon, she was smarter than Jon. She saw that if Sansa knew her power would crumble. Jon didn’t see that. So why wouldn’t you bed when that single sentence that he is the true heir can end all that she build? Would be a bit stupid not to. (except maybe doing damage control and going with Jon with telling the truth by showing Sansa and Arya you are on their side). The only thing is that Dany should have chosen family over power there but how can you do that when the throne is your destiny, and you are the only one that can do good in the world with your view and that you need that throne for that to set the world free?

     Understand the Jaime Brienne part. But begging the one you love not going to his death and choosing you instead is not really bro-move in my opinion. She fought for her love. And even many man does that in real life. We didn’t have a problem when Daario begged Dany to choose him.

     Sandor sansa dialogue. Can see where you come from. But I personally don’t think Sansa’s statement was about “I was happy being raped” but more as “I went to hell and survived and it lead to this moment where I lead my people to survive the long night. If I had the choice I choose the same path that lead to the survival of my people”.

     The down there dialogue is nothing wrong with if you look at real life. Go to a place where only man work and many times they talk about the woman’s body. Was it needed? No, for my part they delete that scene together with the whole Bronn storyline. But man will be man. And luckily Jaime shut him up, that’s not what you ask about the woman he loves.

     As for Sansa apologizing. why shouldn’t she apologize. And I’m not talking about what it lead to in KL. Because that’s not the reason why Sansa apologized. She broke Jon’s trust. She promised him she wouldn’t tell anyone what he was about to say. And 10 minutes later she does. If that would happen to me that I tell a close one, one of my secrets and they promise not to tell to anyone and 10 minutes later they do. Even an apologize wouldn’t be enough for me. And we all know how Jon is about promises (7×07)

164. Efi,

     I’m sorry, I forgot to put what of your quotes in quotations! Here’s my amendment to that for clarity’s sake so it doesn’t look like I’m trying to steal your words 🙂

     Sansa apologizing to Jon? No one knows exactly what for (hence the conflict from script to official summary), but they felt the need to put it out there anyway.

     I partly agree with this but it could be a case of Sansa apologizing for one thing (not being able to prevent banishment) and Jon not being able to fully forgive her for another (telling his secret despite her promise).

165. kevin1989,

     +1! 🙂

     Although, without knowing how real-life conversations between men go about this sort of thing, I do wish they cut the, “What’s she like down there?” line from Tyrion. Brienne is just tall and broadly-built, not suffering an unusual medical condition. I think this dialogue could have been done better.

166. Efi,

     A little bit later then I wanted to comment. But my pc crashed without a reason. So write it again, so it will be shorter then I previous did.
     About the endings:
     Bran became an emotionless person. A vessel without a soul. Not really a bro-ending in my opinion. His ending is bitter. Yes he is king, the only thing why that suites Bran is that he can be of use, which is the only thing that Bran can make his love feel have meaning.
     Jon: 2 lovers died in his arms, needs to live with it. The only upside is that he else was being executed in the south now he lives.
     Tyrion: He doesn’t want it, he has the job because of one reason. Bran doesn’t have emotions, meaning that it doesn’t matter what Tyrion wants, what he deserved etc. What matters is what is logically, and that is putting the best men for the job if he wants it or not. Bran chooses his choice by one thing, what will help the 6 kingdoms. But will he be happy in his role as hand of the king again?

     As for the best ending of all the main characters, it’s still Arya, not a bro but a woman.

     Adrianacandle,

     Agree about the Dany Jon scene in 8×05. What she longed for is love. She even utter that in that scene. Jon has love, she has not on this side of the sea.

     Adrianacandle,

     Agree, was just referring that it happens in real life too. And I think that many woman talk also about man together. But I agree that I didn’t like that scene, it felt out of place, the old Tyrion would maybe say something like that, but he changed so I don’t see mature Tyrion state something like that. And it wasn’t even funny or anything. But I didn’t have a problem with Bronn in the past “I would fuck her”. That was just Bronn talking like he always does. I rather that Tyrion would have asked Jaime something like “And is my assessment right about her, in you know” Jaime looks at him puzzled but also I warn you look, Tyrion concludes his sentence “in bed. I always had a feeling that she would be a great lover” Or something like that. That would be more Tyrion.

167. kevin1989,

     Right, I don’t think it was about control, nor do I think that alone drove Dany to the brink. I think Dany wanting sexual intimacy isn’t at all unreasonable but it wasn’t something Jon could give at that time (he’s still reeling from R+L=J — Dany’s cool with incest because it’s a culture she’s grew up with, Jon’s not. Perhaps with time, sure, but it’d need time) and it seemed Dany added that to her pile-up of despair.

     Although, something I don’t get is Dany did have support on this side of the sea. No, she wasn’t be lifted up and hailed as ‘Mhysa’ but she did have the willing support of Dorne, Yara’s part of the Iron Island, and Highgarden via Tyrell support — none of which she won through fear and demands. Other than the North and the wildlings, Jon doesn’t have the love of the rest of Westeros: they may know him as Ned Stark’s bastard son, but that’s really it. I feel some of these inconsistencies were overlooked with the intent to get Dany to that point where she snapped as quickly as possible in the span of three episodes.

     Agree, was just referring that it happens in real life too. And I think that many woman talk also about man together. But I agree that I didn’t like that scene, it felt out of place, the old Tyrion would maybe say something like that, but he changed so I don’t see mature Tyrion state something like that. And it wasn’t even funny or anything. But I didn’t have a problem with Bronn in the past “I would fuck her”. That was just Bronn talking like he always does.

     Right, I agree. It doesn’t seem something like a mature Tyrion would say about somebody Jaime regards the way he does Brienne.

     As for women talking this way, I can only speak for myself and what I’ve experienced in my friend group (so this may be TOTALLY different for other women!!), but I remember some of this talk occurring in high school when a friend would hook up with a guy she liked for the first time (“What was it like? What did you do? What was he like? Omg was it so gross???). I’ve never asked about it when it came to a friend’s SO or serious partner, but I can’t speak for anyone else 🙂

168. Adrianacandle:
     kevin1989</strong
     Although, something I don’t get is Dany did have support on this side of the sea. No, she wasn’t be lifted up and hailed as ‘Mhysa’ but she did have the willing support of Dorne, Yara’s part of the Iron Island, and Highgarden via Tyrell support — none of which she won through fear and demands.
     

     True, they weren’t following her out of fear and demands, but they weren’t following her out of love, either, like she was accustomed to in Essos. Yara wanted to use Danerys to kill her uncle and take back the Iron Islands. Ellaria and Olenna followed Danerys because they wanted revenge on Cersei.

169. Adrianacandle,

     I think the books are more consistent with that, because of you know who sitting on the throne and probably whole westeros loves him.

     Young Dragon,

     True, but Dany doesn’t want allies she wants people admiring her. Bowing to her like in 1×10 and 6×04. She wants to be the Mysha, the savior, the entity that is symbol for good.

170. Young Dragon,

     Yes, that’s true, they didn’t support her out of love and blind loyalty, it was more of a negotiation. Although — based on their interactions — I do think they respected Daenerys.

     kevin1989,

     Voldemort on the throne and beloved by Westeros?! 🙂 🙂 🙂 HELL YA.

     But in seriousness, I’m not sure what you mean? Can you clarify? 🙂

171. Adrianacandle,

     Lol, it took me a second to cotton on to the joke, he means fAegon, Kevin and I share a theory about him ousting Cersei before Dany gets to Westeros.

172. Adrianacandle,

     Young Griff a.ka. Aegon Targaryen, the one that supposed to be killed by the mountain. Some thinks he’s a fake, I’m thinking that too. But Dany already saw a vision of him on the throne (Meaning Cersei will be gone before Dany arrives in Westeros). And in that vision it’s shown that the people love him. Which I think will up her dark side even more when he got love as a fake Targ, and she as a true Targ doesn’t get love in Westeros.

173. Jenny,

     kevin1989,

     Thanks, guys! I’m a dumba$$ and completely, completely blanked on Young Griff XD Thanks for explaining it!

174. kevin1989,

     Do either you or Jenny have any reddit links/blogs where I can read more about this? Thank-you!

175. Adrianacandle,

     This is an interesting one, I don’t know anything about this person, but a lot of it aligns with my personal tinfoil hat theories.

     https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2019/05/14/the-kings-landing-endgame-book-v-show/2/

176. Jenny,

     You’re a gem 💖I’ll read this at the doctor’s today 🙂

177. kevin1989,

     Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. I’m sure Danerys appreciated their support, but it was their love and admiration she really wanted.

178. Efi,

     real crime? being a man?

179. Efi,

     Efi,

     sounds more like YOU have a problem

180. Efi,

     so you never cry then?

181. Efi: -Sansa apologizing to Tyrion for leaving him? Of course it’s because they whitewashed Tyrion so much. Sansa’s perspective goes down the drain, as no one bothers to point out that it was a marriage without her will and he belonged to a family who slaughtered hers; from her pov she wasn’t obliged to stay with him at all, but she apologizes anyway.

     Well this was a marriage without Tyrion’s will as well. They were both forced to marry each other. Unlike most of the Lannisters, Tyrion treated Sansa very well. Of course Sansa didn’t “have to” apologize to Tyrion for anything. It’s just something that decent people with decent hearts do to people they care about. I don’t think it’s a gender thing, IMO. And to be fair to Tyrion, he was wrongly accused of murder and Sansa was a prime suspect, so that must’ve put Tyrion in a very difficult position at the time even though it was no fault of Sansa’s.

     Efi: -pointless sex scene with Bronn ( I suppose having dinner at a tavern and having the waitresses talking wouldn’t have been interesting?)

     So Bronn had sex with prostitutes. So what? It’s Bronn. That’s what he does. It’s business as usual for the prostitutes and they seemed perfectly fine with it all.

     Efi: Cersei deciding to have sex with Euron; another woman submitting to male desires for an army, ships and some missing elephants. Not entirely ooc for Cersei though, no matter how much her fans protest –but then again she did become queen for choosing her mates and not being treated like a brood mare, which is exactly how Euron does treat her.

     Cersei knew full well what Euron wanted from her, and she used it to get what she wanted from him. She dangled sex in front of him like a carrot leading a horse. She used him and he used her. Why only focus on Euron here? When Cersei sensed that Euron was starting to question his allegiance with her, she used sex to continue using him for her own benefit. She even let Euron think that the baby was his. Who’s manipulating who here?

     Efi: -Arya taking over and having sex with Gentry. Another male fantasy. People actually liked this scene, I hated it. It was like a job interview (rather not ooc for show Arya, but we didn’t have her perspective on this issue before anyway so I don’t have a clear opinion on this). Question missing for hiring full-time job: how big is your d@@@? I suppose she’s had a test drive and then decided it wasn’t big enough. (seriously, why is it that men like that stuff? it takes away your agency)

     This is a strange interpretation of that scene. Arya was the one who initiated sex with Gendry and more or less demanded it from him, yet you’ve decided to conclude that this scene was purely a male fantasy from Gendry’s perspective? What happened to Arya in all of this? So, Gendry was topping from the bottom?

     Efi: -Dany begging Jon, eps 4 and 5. Over and over. And for his magic d@@@. Ah, this one’s my favorite. Of course people see the Cersei-Euron dynamic, but no one recognizes that Jon actually bedded Dany for her armies and dragons. It’s Cersei-Euron inversed. In his own story, Jon is Cersei and Dany uses sex to control him. When she realizes she won’t have it, she goes ballistic.

     What does this have to do with bro-culture? What you’re describing here is a scenario in which the woman is in control, not the man, and the man is saying that he DOESN’T want to have sex with her because of personal reasons. This is a perfectly understandable and reasonable scenario.

     Efi: – The awkward Jamie-Brienne party hook-up.

     I think this scene was just poorly written. I don’t know if this is really a “bro-culture” moment either though. I think some people are projecting things that are not there, but I agree that the scene was awkward.

     Efi: – the weird, completely unfortunate Sansa-Sandor dialog

     Can you articulate what was “completely unfortunate” about this scene? Sansa was in complete control the entire time and did exactly what she wanted to do in that conversation. Where’s the “bro-culture” moment? Was it because another woman was attracted to Sandor and wanted to have sex with him even though he didn’t want her? Can you explain how this relates to “bro-culture”? Are men supposed to feel shame when someone wants to have sex with them or something? It’s perfectly ok to like sex you know, just as it’s perfectly ok to not like it.

     Efi: – The shitty “down there” Jamie-Tyrion dialog

     I don’t remember this scene. It’s been a while since I’ve watched season 8.

     Efi: – Brienne begging Jamie. Hm! Talk about the exemplification of the beauty and the beast trope going awry. No, sweet Brienne, the beast won’t change no matter how you try; ask Sansa; she knows.

     Brienne loved Jaime and she knew that if Jaime went back to KL he’d die. There’s no “bro-culture” going on here.

     Efi: – Sansa apologizing to Jon? No one knows exactly what for (hence the conflict from script to official summary), but they felt the need to put it out there anyway. Of course the boys in the story had nothing to do with the firestorming of KL, only Sansa should have kept her mouth shut. (that is not my reading though).

     I don’t remember the entire context of this scene either, but wasn’t Sansa apologizing to Jon for revealing a secret that Jon made her promise not to tell anyone? If so, this is not an example of “bro-culture” either.

     Efi: – and in spite of the mess they caused, the boys: one ends up king of all (well, minus one) without ever having done anything to deserve it; the other ends up his councilor despite his crimes; the third gets away with it with just a simple (implied time-limited) exile where he gets to live with his best buddies (his real crime was never addressed).

     WHy is it that the mess was only the boys’ fault? Wasn’t the architect of the destruction of KL a woman? And to quote Clint Eastwood, “deserve’s got nothing to do with it”. We already know why Bran was chosen, for better or for worse. It wasn’t because of his gender. KL just had a Queen previously. Did Cersei “deserve” to be Queen? She just killed all of her enemies and took over. I guess it depends on what you mean by “deserve”. WHile I agree that Tyrion being chosen as Hand-of-the-King wasn’t exactly a harsh punishment for Tyrion, we know why he was chosen and it was BECAUSE of his crimes, not in spite of them. Bran charged him with fixing everything that he screwed up.

     Jon killed the GoT version of Hitler, so I don’t know what kind of punishment you were hoping that Jon would receive. He probably should’ve been commended, not exiled, but they had to appease the Unsullied/Dothraki to avoid total war, hence the exile.

     Efi: – so the boys are with their buddies, the girls are all alone. Dany gone, Cersei too, Sansa queen like Elizabeth notorious bachelorette, Arya also alone, Brienne too, Yara too (? presumably)

     The women chose to be alone. Arya wanted to sail, and she did. Sansa wanted to be QITN and that’s exactly what she became. Yara is the leader of the Iron Islands. Brienne is head of the Kingsguard. Cersei and Dany died because they did horrible things to facilitate their own downfall. What more could you ask for? Do they have to be married or in a relationship to be happy to you? Wouldn’t THAT be more “bro-culture” than anything you’ve described? She needs to be attached to a man to be happy? You don’t think that Sansa could find someone in the North to date or befriend if she wanted to? Same with Arya and Brienne.

     Efi: I forgot something.
     Add to the list. Cersei crying in the arms of Jamie. Of course, they’re about to die. But that was ooc for show Cersei. Cersei who blew up the sept and walked the walk of shame for her children would know that she’d have to face the consequences of her actions bravely; she wouldn’t shed a single tear.

     I think what D&D were trying to go for was to show that, in the end, after Cersei had played all of her hands and lost all of her allies, she really wasn’t any different than anyone else. She was afraid to die, which is a perfectly normal emotion. What was Jaime supposed to do, slap her in the face and tell her to stop crying? Would that have been more palatable to you? I doubt it. Or should she act like some cybernetic organism and show no emotion at all just to prove a point to you that women are strong because Cersei didn’t cry before her death? Crying doesn’t necessarily have to mean weakness. That is actually a “bro-culture” statement, which is coming from you, not the show.

182. Adrianacandle,

     Adriana you haven’t read the above have you?
     The “bros” are not my take. It’s one of the emmy voters’ take. What I wrote was simply an interpretation of that voter’s comment.
     Which part of “we need allies, powerful allies” (7.2.) you don’t get?
     Saying that Jon was so blindly in love with Daenerys is actually insulting for him.
     He used her for getting her armies and her dragons North, she used him to get the North, as Tyrion made sure to make very explicit for her in 7.3.
     Cersei did the exact same thing with Euron. She wanted a fleet, he wanted to bed a queen.
     This is the GOT and this is how it is played.
     I mean… how is it my fault that it’s my reading when it’s even in the script, when it’s on screen?

183. Reek,

     “sounds more like YOU have a problem”
     “so you never cry then?”

     Reek, do you think this is Twitter? Am I supposed to say something smart?

184. Efi,

     Adriana you haven’t read the above have you?
     The “bros” are not my take. It’s one of the emmy voters’ take. What I wrote was simply an interpretation of that voter’s comment.

     I read through this thread but it’s very likely I missed something and if so, I truly apologize. Can you clarify?

     Which part of “we need allies, powerful allies” (7.2.) you don’t get?

     Yeah, I get that’s the reason why Jon went south, before he met Daenerys and developed any kind of relationship with her.

     No, Jon didn’t go south to fall in love, it just happened. Jon also didn’t go to Mance’s camp to fall in love. Jaime and Brienne didn’t trek together to King’s Landing so they’d fall in love. Tywin and Joanna didn’t conceive twins so those twins would fall in love. People meet each other all kinds of ways (Jaime and Cersei in the womb) and many times, they don’t intend to fall in love. What did Jaime say? “We don’t choose whom we love.”

     Saying that Jon was so blindly in love with Daenerys is actually insulting for him.

     Okay, that’s your view, but that’s the story… This is what was included in the script direction for the 7×06 script when he wakes up and Dany is at his bedside:

     “Jon has truly never seen a girl like this before. Her beauty, her strength, her grief and the pain it makes him feel . . . they all push him to the realization that he loves her.”

     Personally, I think what Political!Jon is proposing (a man needs to control a woman with sex to get her to do the right thing) is pretty awful myself and doesn’t make much sense for the reasons already stated above.

     He used her for getting her armies and her dragons North, she used him to get the North

     Nothing in the show, the script, the writers, or the cast and crew says or supports that Jon and Dany merely used each other. Especially when their sex happened weeks after Dany vowed to fight the NK. If this was the case, something would have come out and outright said it. However, nothing in these materials say Jon used Dany or Dany used Jon. Those materials say they fell in love.

     as Tyrion made sure to make very explicit for her in 7.3.
     This is the GOT and this is how it is played.

     Again, this is from when they had just met and were negotiating. They weren’t sleeping together at this time. Because two people meet when trying to negotiate, this doesn’t negate the sincerity of any personal relationship that may form after. This is how some people in real life meet – ie. lawyers on opposing sides. When Brienne and Jaime met, Brienne was taking an imprisoned Jaime back to King’s Landing. When Jon and Ygritte met, Jon had Ygritte at knifepoint. Jon and Dany met when Jon came down to negotiate an alliance to defend humanity.

     It’s even possible that people can negotiate things like political matters and have genuine personal feelings for the other. But Jon and Dany were no longer negotiating. Dany resolved to fight the NK, Jon willingly bent the knee.

     I mean… how is it my fault that it’s my reading when it’s even in the script, when it’s on screen?

     Okay, this is your reading but there’s nothing in the script to support the theory that Jon was just using Dany for her armies and dragons, pretending to be in love with her, or vice versa. The script says their feelings for one another are genuine, not exploitive. You’re citing dialogue from before they met and within hours of meeting each other, not after they started a relationship.

185. Jenny,

     Nice read, and some I agree with. But many I don’t, there are even mistakes in his blog. I address them here how I look at it:
     – I don’t believe the WW are defeated in the books after the KL debacle. Why? Because GRRM disliked that they omitted the scourging of the shire in the lord of the rings book. He liked that after the main villain was defeated that there is still something left to defeat. And I think that’s the same he will do in the books. The WW treat will be defeated around 300 pages before the last book ends. In which then we get 300 pages of aftermath what we saw in 8×04 till 8×06. Dany burning KL to the ground, Jon killing her. But it happen faster in the books because we don’t have the whole Arya chase scene. We will get it probably get 3 book chapters from it, the first will be from Jon’s pov (or somebody else who is present in the books at Dany’s side), this will be the preparing of the battle itself, the second will be through the eyes from somebody in KL, Arianne or Jon C, or maybe Sam? What if Sam will help Jon C in the books instead of Jorah and will try to forge an alliance between Jon and Aegon?. That chapter will end with the start of the burning of the city. After that we go what we saw at the beginning of the last episode, in which we will read Dany thinking back to the burning of KL in which we read how she justified it and then she will do something in presence. Killing Griff? Maybe same as the show talking to her people.
     – Why I do think Dany will go north directly after she sets place in Westeros is because she has visions already in the books. And because it makes sense that she will become the hero against the WW treat and gain followers in the north and only after that they will help her with her dark plan. In which the north will be contributing in the horrors that will happen later.
     – GRRM already stated that the treat against the WW is important because how people react to it. It’s the human side of that conflict that is important. Which will not be important for an endgoal. Because working together and ending in a mainstream “everyone together facing this evil and everything happen before don’t matter anymore” is not GRRM style. The WW storyline is important because it will be the catalyst for the endgame, and that endgame is not happy but horror conflicted by humans instead of dark ice entities. Him ending his story in good(humans) vs evil (WW) doesn’t seem like GRRM because one side is not human.
     – Agree about Arya and that the north arc will be different in season 5,6 and 7.
     – Agree with his assessment where the story ends and where it will lead short term.
     – Next comment before my pc crashes again.

186. Efi: Cersei did the exact same thing with Euron. She wanted a fleet, he wanted to bed a queen.

     This nature of the Cersei-Euron dynamic was made explicit by the show, that it was a transaction — nothing more, nothing less. Nothing in the show/script says Euron and Cersei are in love, nor are the writers/cast saying they are. Sex was part of their initial negotiations.

     This was not the case for Jon and Daenerys. Sex happened well after Dany vowed to fight the NK, after Jon bent the knee, after they met with Cersei for a truce. It was not a transaction and the show canon says their feelings are genuine.

     And Euron seems pretty motivated by sex in his interactions with Cersei — he’ll give her all this stuff if she just sleeps with him. That’s not the case for Jon… or Dany. Neither are motivated by sex.

187. Jenny,

     – Agree with the Jon being one of the 3.
     – Agree on who the mummers dragon is.
     – blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. I don’t think this is Stannis because

     Stannis is already death by the hand of Ramsay. Meaning that there will be no conflict between Stannis and Dany

     The blue-eyed king is either somebody connected to the WW treat. Maybe somebody Jon, Bran or somebody else will be resurrected by the WW and become the blue-eyed king. Or maybe the great other. But maybe it’s still Stannis but then I wonder what will happen in the Ramsay storyline.
     – As for the betrayal. I think the betrayal will be the other way around. Jon will be one betraying her for Blood (family). In which later she doesn’t trust Aegon.
     – I also believe that the dark Dany will also come into play in the books. The one that made this blog tries to make a way in which dany doesn’t become the monster she is. But it’s very likely this came from GRRM own mouth. Or maybe it’s true but she gets killed as a tyrant but she will not go that far in the books. Which for me will be too bittersweet then what befallen in the show. She is already very dark at the end of book 5. And with dark I don’t mean, Cersei dark that she doesn’t care. But that she sees herself as the big hero who knows what’s right and wrong. And that she is right to set things right (her view of right). She is also under the impression that it’s her destiny that she gets the throne, and once she hears of the WW she will feel it’s her destiny to save them, but once she saves them she even more certain her destiny is right. She is the savior of all. It’s not Dany herself that is dark perse, she has a gentle heart. It’s the push she got, the visions she got she is a savior, people in Essos making her feel like she is a savior who deserves to be praised and bowed to. In a very important stage of her life (13/16 years) she learn those things.
     – I like the way the volanqar prophecy will come into play with his idea.
     – Next comment my idea. Which is almost the same as the link you posted but a bit different, not much different.

188. Efi, I replied to you, but my post is stuck in moderation purgatory. Hopefully, it will be freed soon.

189. Mr Derp,

     Same here so I post it also later.

     Reek,

     https://giphy.com/gifs/speaker-house-of-commons-john-bercow-5zdkFHpL6ySaDiKydK

190. kevin1989,

     It’s quite handy when someone writes an essay so that we don’t have to lol, it saves my fingers. I don’t agree with all of it either but he puts forward some interesting theories.

     I’m so not sure about the timeline, I can hardly give an opinion either way, I’m 50/50 on it. I was shocked when they defeated the NK first in the show, I thought for sure that it would be the other way around, the idea of Cersei being the ‘big bad’ was almost comical to me. Dany has a vision of the Trident I think? She may not go further North straight away, but I really don’t know. Partly because I haven’t totally discounted Jon killing Dany as part of the Nissa Nissa prophecy, which would only be required against the Others.

     RE: Stannis, he is still alive in the books, because he hasn’t burnt Shireen yet, he may be around for a good chunk of WoW, he certainly won’t be killed by Brienne, not sure what the future holds for him, he might even join up with Jon to defeat Ramsey.

     He definitely tries to take some of the heat off Dany, and I do actually agree with him to a point, she will embrace her ‘Fire and Blood’ nature, and she will burn KL, but it won’t be clear cut war crime. I feel that the show did that to make Jon’s decision clearer, and to make us turn on Dany without question. It will be much less black and white in the books, though I am fully on board with dark Dany. Speaking of, I meant to post this earlier, I read this years ago about Dany, I started side eyeing her and then went to find out if I was the only one, I wasn’t. It is quite lengthy so I’ll link to the most relevant part. I can’t remember the specifics, I will have to reread it at some point. I’m just piling on the homework lol, https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/05/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iv-a-darker-daenerys/

     His Valonqar theory is the most obvious way of it happening, I’m not entirely convinced, because Jaime’s vision hints at him fighting the others, and his theory omits that. I think it will end as he suggests, but a bit more will happen to him first. There is a good chance that Brienne dies to save Jaime (and succeeds where she failed Renly/Cat) but I hope not. It makes perfect sense though.

191. Jenny,

     Didn’t Jon got a letter about Stannis. So I don’t think Stannis is endgame.

     Agree with the link. Now I going to try to get my post through once again.

192. I think winds ends roughtly like this.

     For Dany: First part is her season 6 storyline. The battle of Fire is already in Mereen, in which I think we get 1 or 2 chapters of her with the Dothraki. Her third and maybe fourth will be the battle of Fire. Which will end before half of winds is done. Then we get 2 chapters her getting ready to go to westeros and leaving. Around 2/3 we get a chapter of her before Valyria on boat. Then her last bits will be her arriving in not leaving for westeros because GRRM kind of cliffhangers are different then what D&D sees as cliffhangers. So I think it will be the landing in Westeros that her story ends.
     For Jon: The wall will come down in winds. Don’t know if that will be the ending of the book or before that but it will come down. Jon will become king in the north, or maybe not king in the north but he is preparing the WW treat. Before that he needs to come alive. And get to winterfell. Who is already under Stark control.
     Sam: I think he will be the whole book in Oldtown. Dealing with Euron. Learning about the WW treat.

     cont.

193. kevin1989,

     Starks: It’s not Jon who will take back Winterfell it is Rickon and Davos. Maybe he dies like the show and Sansa saves the day just a bit too late? Sansa will get rid of LF before winds is over, she is smarter in the books. She convinces the vale to go north taking back her home. Arya is mystery for me where she will be, will she be in KL or Winterfell already. Bran too is a mystery for me. Or still in his cave or at Winterfell with Jon. Or maybe he is at Castle black when the wall falls. The WW treat will be known to the north at the end of the book.

     cont.

194. I would say Jon being resurrected and becoming King in the North is almost a given in the next book. Only I think his crowning will be through Robbs will which is setup in the books but not in the show.

195. kevin1989,

     Kings Landing: Part 1 of the books. Cersei takes care of the Tyrells. Aegon gain the forces of Dorne and the stormlands. And second part he gets the Tyrells with him. Then he takes over Kings Landing in which Cersei escapes for the Rock. Big boom present of Cersei in KL? It gives damage but not that much what Dany will do in dreams. It ends with Aegon crowning himself king.

     cont.

196. kevin1989,

     I might be getting confused with the timelines, because Stannis is in Winds of Winter and is still preparing to fight Ramsey, Shireen is still alive and Asha is still a hostage. Jon receives the letter in ADWD, Ramsey claims to have killed Stannis and captured Mance Rayder, but we don’t know if it’s true. If it is, that would mean WoW takes place during ADWD?

197. I’m going to post the rest later. Again the comments are lost in purgatory.
     Jon Snowed,

     Forget that letter. It will happen.

     Jenny,

     True, they skipped a bit with Jon to get to his cliffhanger. We can suspect that that cliff was GRRM first plan with Dance for Jon. But he also wanted to have the battle of Winterfell in Dance. Same with Mereen, we already got a lot in Mereen. But we didn’t read anything about Dany in that moment. Her chapter is probably even with the timeline before everything of Baristan. Again this is because he skipped the battle of fire for winds.

198. kevin1989: Didn’t Jon got a letter about Stannis. So I don’t think Stannis is endgame.

     He got a letter from Ramsay (although, there are some who don’t believe Ramsay penned the letter) claiming Stannis is dead (“Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword.”) However, this may not necessarily be the case. Adam Feldman of the Meereenese Blot essays Jenny linked to above (which are excellent! He goes over the ADWD arcs of Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, and Dorne!) goes over this letter (section The Pink Letter – Confronting Ramsay’s Evil) and the ramifications of it.

     And I read through that blog link, Jenny! Pretty interesting stuff! I’ll have to ruminate on it! 🙂

199. Adrianacandle,

     As I said over and over, my reading of the story is political.
     Daenerys fans tend to overlook significant aspects of the story for accomodating this romance, as weird as it was portrayed in the show. For me it was no romance, I’ve said it before, I don’t really want to get into it again, it’s already been much discussed.
     As for dialog, they didn’t have much after they went to bed, did they? One should ask why is that so, but people don’t do that.
     In any case, the point was that it was political relationship with some sex interfering. The show made Dany look like she she went crazy when she realized that she lost Jon (because she also lost everybody else, I think that was Emilia’s take too). That was what people received from what was on screen. If that’s not a story of male favoritism, I don’t know what is. Season 7 was more political. Season 8 with the battle for dawn and the burning of KL almost completely discarded the political factor. They made Daenerys look like a sentimental little woman, while she should have been making a political statement. They left no room for that, battle and limitations taken into account.

     The script? Is that script for real? It sounds like an extract from a really bad novel. Was 7.6 even released? 7.7. was released for the emmys. Are you seriously gonna make me go look my old youtubers who had the leaks of season 7? I’m dying here, lol.

     PS. I think my previous post came off a bit aggressive. I am sorry for that and truly my hurry (I was going out) is a lame excuse. I’ll try not to do it again. (Sometimes I’m overloaded with the same stuff over and over and I’m being extremely rude –you’re far too sweet for that). Perhaps I should write something about what season 7 means in my overall estimation, but it sounds like it’s old news –that, too is much discussed.

200. Efi,

     Please, don’t worry, Efi! 🙂 I didn’t feel slighted whatsoever and I hope you never do either from my posts! Sometimes, I’m really worried that I put across the wrong tone in my posts so I totally understand.

     The script? Is that script for real? It sounds like an extract from a really bad novel. Was 7.6 even released? 7.7. was released for the emmys. Are you seriously gonna make me go look my old youtubers who had the leaks of season 7? I’m dying here, lol.

     Yes, that is the legitimate script for 706, it’s nothing to do with the season 7 leaks or released script pages from that time 🙂 Select pages from various GoT scripts from seasons 1 through 7 were released from The Writer’s Guild of America West library. I invite you to check out that Vanity Fair link I included above, they’ve got some interesting tidbits for many of the characters! Here is where script pages were sourced from:

     “The Writers Guild of America West has a library that’s open to the public. In it, you’ll find dozens of scripts from seven seasons of Game of Thrones, as well as other goodies—thanks to the generosity of HBO and, specifically, co-show-runner D.B. Weiss.”

     As I said over and over, my reading of the story is political.
     Daenerys fans tend to overlook significant aspects of the story for accomodating this romance, as weird as it was portrayed in the show. For me it was no romance, I’ve said it before, I don’t really want to get into it again, it’s already been much discussed.

     I don’t feel like I’m trying to twist or stretch anything to fit my own personal interpretation and I’m not trying to comment on the quality of the story they told. I’m trying reference released and associated materials from the show, including the recently released season 7 script. These materials state the feelings between Jon and Daenerys were genuine, not faked for the sake of political gain.

     I know my own personal takes/theories/interpretations are my own and I can’t speak for what the show intended to do because I’m not with the show, obviously — which is why I’m referring to the show materials/interviewers with writers, cast, and crew/BTS specials because they can speak to the narrative’s intention, particularly the writers. That said, I think there’s a case for Death of the Author but it’s not something I personally subscribe to.

     I’d be happy to share links to these materials (that I know of) with you if you like.

     (1/2)

201. Efi,

     As for dialog, they didn’t have much after they went to bed, did they? One should ask why is that so, but people don’t do that.

     I believe I’ve commented on this before but I don’t think there’s anything sinister or amuck happening here to indicate either character has an ulterior motive or I think that would have been commented on by somebody associated with the show. Jeremy Podeswa directed the scene I believe you’re referring to and this is what he said he intended with the scene and why it had a minimal amount of dialogue.

     But in general, I personally think the dialogue, particularly in season 7 and especially season 8, wasn’t nearly as strong as it was in earlier seasons, particularly the first five. And I think part of the reason is because D&D are far stronger with the books as source material — they signed up to adapt books, not write the end of Game of Thrones.

     In any case, the point was that it was political relationship with some sex interfering.

     Well, and this is where I’m having the issue. Since the show and its materials contradict the point you’re stating here and say these characters felt genuine love for one another, I don’t think an emotionless relationship solely for political purposes was the point.

     The show made Dany look like she she went crazy when she realized that she lost Jon (because she also lost everybody else, I think that was Emilia’s take too). That was what people received from what was on screen. If that’s not a story of male favoritism, I don’t know what is.

     In my view, I don’t think Dany snapping was a story of male favoritism — she didn’t snap only because Jon wouldn’t have sex with her. It was for a variety of reasons that could be applied to any gender — including the losses you reference Dany experiencing (Jorah, Missandei, Rhaegal). There’s also Dany’s own advisor plotting against her, Sansa telling Jon’s secret, feeling Jon betrayed her by sharing this information with his sisters, and this is what D&D say about that scene in which Dany is perched on the walls of King’s Landing:

     Benioff: If circumstances had been different, I don’t think this side of Dany ever would’ve come out. If Varys hadn’t betrayed her, if Cersei hadn’t executed Missandei, if Jon hadn’t told her the truth. Like, if all of these things had happened in any different way, then I don’t think we’d be seeing this side of Daenerys Targaryen.

     Weiss: I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was… going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, where she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to– to make this personal.

     I’ve stated that I, personally, believe this motivation here is pretty shaky but I don’t think it’s tied to gender.

     Season 7 was more political. Season 8 with the battle for dawn and the burning of KL almost completely discarded the political factor.

     I go to the above points I’ve made before. I don’t really see much to substantiate this.

     They made Daenerys look like a sentimental little woman, while she should have been making a political statement. They left no room for that, battle and limitations taken into account.

     Political statement, what do you mean?

     I think we all have our own “should have”s when it comes to this story. For instance, I really hate the idea of Dark Dany (but I know not everyone does). However, regardless of my own personal feelings and wishes that the story went any other way, this is the story that was told.

     (2/2)

202. Efi,

     Crap, when I said, “including the recently released season 7 script,” I meant season 8 script XD;

     Sadly, 2017 is no longer recent…

203. Efi: Season 7 was more political. Season 8 with the battle for dawn and the burning of KL almost completely discarded the political factor.

     Hey Efi, I’m sorry — I think I might have misunderstood you here in my previous response. Please feel free to clarify if I’ve misunderstood. For me, I think seasons 7 and 8 were both pretty soft on political aspects, season 6 too to a lesser extent. They weren’t as sharp as before while, in earlier seasons, time had been devoted to the exploration of these elements. I’m not necessarily talking about political intrigue/machinations/surprise plots but rather, the more basic stuff of people sorting themselves out post-crisis/preparing for crisis/impacts of decisions/integrating new peoples/dealing with disagreement and conflict/etc. which the show did explore beforehand and it’s certainly a thing in the books. I think these seasons touched on that and gave nods in these directions but not much beyond that, as I think plots were sped up. In later seasons, these elements seemed fairly simplified and streamlined as we approached the end.

204. Adrianacandle,

     Personally I think the letter is legit. They skipped the two battles but Jon always was supposed to be the ending with his death in dance, like a cliffhanger. The first thing that George wanted to do is having the battle of Ice (winterfel) and battle of Fire (Merreen before the end of Dance). Meaning his first plan was having the battle of Stannis vs Ramsay before Jon’s last chapter. Meaning chronically Jon receive that letter after the battle of Ice (which we will read in the next book, and it’s not the first time George did write everything 100% chronically, some chapters are combined 1 day, and sometimes 1 chapter contains a month, Dorne and Iron Plot is also happening in feast but chronically at the second part of SoS). Meaning that if Stannis wins, he would have written that letter.
     It also make sense if Mel knew Stannis was death she would use Shireen to get Jon back to live. And also Davos is getting Rickon, that means Rickon is meant to get back Winterfell or be into play with that story, meaning Stannis can’t win against Ramsay. Why else get Rickon back?

     Efi,
     Dany always longed for a home, for love. Her whole chapters made that clear that she longed for that. That is feels like a little girl who has no one. It’s a part of her character, it’s a part that made her decision. She got love from the people she freed so that even upped her goal to free them, and become political. Look at season 1 of Dany, it’s all about going home, not about politics.

     As for Dany Jon. Even D&D and Kit and Emilia said that they were in love. Even the scripts of 7×07 say they were in love. Dany’s action in 8×06 also showed that how Jon was the only one that she was willing to show her softer side, even with Grey worm she is the powerful leader, but with Jon she showed her weaknesses.

     Jon was never political in the show (in the end), the first chance he got he threw away his crown. He didn’t bow to Dany only because he trust her and love her. But he hated that crown, he doesn’t want to lead (logical because it led to his death the first time). Dany already gave her army to the northern cause at the end of 7×06. But their first love scene was in 7×07. Even the scripts of 7×07 states that Jon is in love with Dany. And it also states that Tyrion is in love with Dany.

     Their relationship didn’t work because like many relationships in real life. After a while you see other sides of the partner, you may like them or not. With Jon and Dany it was clearly Jon didn’t like those.

205. Adrianacandle,

     I didn’t know they had released the scripts from other episodes. Does that mean we maybe get the scripts of the bells this year?

206. Strange it seems I can’t post anything about what I think of winds or dream, but long post I can post.

207. kevin1989,

     I think it’s really hard to say because there’s no way of knowing. And I get the impression that GRRM has a tendency to write, scrap, rewrite, scrap, rewrite. I have no idea what’s going to happen with Rickon or Davos. I’ve read so much speculation, I have no idea what will happen other than Bran eventually becomes king, Shireen is eventually toasted, R+L=J is revealed, how Hodor got his name is revealed, and I’m unfortunately now convinced Dany goes dark and dies somehow by Jon’s hand. Everything else is a total mystery but I do enjoy reading what you think will happen, as well as other theories!

     Jon was never political in the show (in the end), the first chance he got he threw away his crown. He didn’t bow to Dany only because he trust her and love her. But he hated that crown, he doesn’t want to lead (logical because it led to his death the first time).

     I agree with much of your post and that Jon no longer yearns for leadership. However, I don’t think Jon viewed his crown as something to be thrown away the first chance he got (or he would have knelt far sooner than the end of 706 when Dany wanted it) — but as a duty. I think, by the end of 706, he saw Dany as a good leader to unite under, as he saw Stannis was good for the realm as well and found himself supporting Stannis, despite knowing he must stay neutral. I think love certainly played a factor in his eventual decision to kneel to Dany but I think Jon also knelt because he felt Dany was good for the realm — the kind of leader who’d risk herself and what she had to save others and even after great personal cost, still resolved to fight the Night King (a threat Jon’s been begging for people to recognize) to defend the realm (“They’ll see you for what you are.” — 706 /”She’ll be a good queen, for all of us.” — 801).

     I didn’t know they had released the scripts from other episodes. Does that mean we maybe get the scripts of the bells this year?

     I’m really not sure. It seems these materials had been in the collection for quite some time (according to Vanity Fair) but their inclusion in The Writer’s Guild Foundation’s collection was promoted to gear up for season 8. Per The Writer’s Guild Foundation instagram:

     As you gear up #FortheThrone, ask our librarians how you can read the Show Bible and pitch letter written by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for #GameofThrones.

208. Adrianacandle,

     * Typo! “(or he would have knelt far sooner than the end of 706 when Dany wanted it)” should be “(or he would have knelt far sooner, when Dany wanted it, rather than the end of 706)” 🙂

209. Adrianacandle,

     Agree, but I meant more with the crown, that once he got a reason to throw it away. That means believing in Dany. He took that chance without thinking about it (how his people though about it), and it seems he was relieved after that.

210. kevin1989,

     I think Jon should have definitely consulted people before he made that move and I agree he believed in Dany but I don’t think he was looking to throw his crown away — but I think his decision was more about what was good for the realm and the North, rather than looking for a personal reason to not be king.

     Personally, I’m a big believer in unity and I’m not sure how an independent North would survive on its own as the King of the (Six) Kingdoms would need to take care of its own first before shuttling resources to allies. And the North is kind of hard up on resources at the moment. Even with the arrival of spring and summer, it takes time to grow and get what they need to rebuild. However, maybe I’m overthinking that part of it 🙂

     He refused to kneel for quite some time until feeling Dany was a suitable leader to unite under. The conversation between Jon and Tormund in 706, when Tormund told him, “You spent too much time with the Free Folk. Now you don’t like kneeling. Mance Rayder was a great man. Proud man. The King Beyond the Wall and never bent the knee. How many of us people died for his pride?”

     I feel this is a very, very clunky piece of dialogue, not totally correct (Mance’s reasons were more than pride — he knew the Free Folk had to choose their leader and would never follow Stannis), and it also doesn’t seem right coming from Tormund of all people — but I think it was meant to pave the way for Jon bending the knee to Dany. Jon resisted because a) he didn’t feel he knew enough about Dany, b) he knew the Northerners wouldn’t follow another southron ruler and c) was trying to make the best decisions he could with the knowledge he had. However, I think the events of 706 changed a) and c) for Jon. Jon seems to be about unity and Stannis and Dany were the first contenders for the throne who showed their devotion to fighting the undead threat and defending the realm.

     As for relief, I’m not so sure — even after giving his crown to Dany, Jon still had a war to lead against an all-powerful mythological threat — and he still had to face the wrath of the North for giving up his crown. But I agree Jon wasn’t really thinking things through that well when he made this decision, I think he was swept up in the magic that inspired so many people — including Missandei and Tyrion — to follow Dany.

211. Adrianacandle,

     True, and it seems I still can’t add my idea of winds and dream of spring. Very strange because everything else is coming through.

     Can it be a word or a symbol? Or maybe the spoiler tags?

212. kevin1989,

     What if you try to post without the spoiler tags and then edit the comment within the 5-minute window to add them? I’ve been having really good luck with my comments getting through so I’m not sure why. I’ve also noticed (in my experience) that if you include more than one link to an external site, a comment will be held in moderation but I don’t think you’re linking things, is that right?

213. Mr Derp,

     “it went the bro-iest it’s ever been — it was frat-boy central”

     Mr.Derp, this was in one of Jenny’s posts from one of the emmy voters and it’s not my comment.
     My comment was all about how this can be explained from what we saw on GOT the last season.
     Perhaps it was overreaching on my part, because after all I am not American and I know nothing about fraternities (I should shut up, lol).
     However, I do know societies as in “groups” and I do know men and young men.

     Societies, groups and micro-groups have common codes, behaviors, reactions, likings, morals, they can even have mottos or slogans what work mostly for projecting the groups’ goals and interests outside of them, building a public face, but more often than not they also serve for regulating inner workings and procedures.
     It is in this context that one can accomodate an ensemble of things that we saw on the show, like those that I have noted above. Whether fraternities (like college fraternities, I suppose) actually do things like those or not is besides the point.

     Tell me for real. Perhaps I know men (I grew up around a bunch of them so I’ve watched their behaviors and reactions closely), but obviously not as well as men know themselves.
     Is it not true that women dominating men especially in sex, initiating contact and sometimes even controlling the act is a common fantasy and/or preference? (don’t get me wrong, of course having fantasies and playing them out with your partner is healthy, unless it becomes the norm)
     Is it not true in the real wolrd that men keep the most significant roles for themselves? What is the percentage of women, i.e. in politics all over the planet, or in academic environments (of which I have first hand knowledge), or in big corporations?

     The female characters in the show -not all of them, granted- used sex to control the men –and the men took it? (again not all of them)
     Female characters who didn’t, ended up alone (independently of whether they got what they wanted “with a twist” -Sansa, Arya, Brienne). Those who did (Cersei, Dany, Melisandre in past seasons) ended up dead.
     Male characters ended up in key positions. In the ending of GOT, if you swapped the characters and Jon ended up on the throne, what would Sansa’s role have been? She wouldn’t have been QitN because that would have been Bran’s role, because he’s the heir to WF (that’s what happens in medieval societies). Do you see the problem here? Sansa’s ending in the general context seems gratuitous -a nod to feminists, if you like.

     I think -it’s my opinion- that existing misconceptions about women in power and about men and sex were overly used in this, and it’s coupled with clichees like “what’s she like down there” and gratuitous sex scenes (Bronn –don’t tell me Bronn never eats, never has a quiet moment, never sits at home for example) and the structure of the ending per se. Daenerys and Cersei ending up dead as main villains while none of the male characters actually paid for what they’ve done (Tyrion, also Jon, Bronn for being a murderer, even Bran, one can hold against him that he didn’t stop the catastrophe). Honestly, the only male figure that does deserve what he got is Ser Davos. He’s as innocent as a baby, lol. And Pod.

     It might come as a surprise to you, but actually what I am writing here is in defense of men everywhere in the planet. Unless you think that women using their sexuality to get what they want from them is ok, then you must admit that it was a narrative full of modern day clichees that are actually damaging for human relations. I do know many men who take initiative themselves, who don’t succumb to female advances when it’s offered to them, who are not afraid of taking responsibility for their actions and who do respect their women far too much for not using that offensive and clichee language either in their presence or behind their backs that the show over-used.

     GOT season 8 was a season made by men for men. This is most probably what the voter above meant with “bro-iest” and “frat-boy central”.
     Again, you may find as many excuses as you want -like, it drives the plot, or it’s in character, or they really meant that this and this was happening- but that doesn’t change the fact that the impression is, it was lazy writing at best.
     We can say that yes, we enjoyed it, for each of us up to a point, for others all the way through, but let’s not be blind to its faults, because what comes across here is that all men like female aggressiveness and manipulation, all men employ this type of language when speaking about women, all women offer sex to men when they want something, and all the rest who don’t end up alone and off to see the world.
     I refuse to subscribe to such a generalization.

214. kevin1989,

     Okay, I spoke too soon — now I’m having trouble too (I forgot to knock on wood to unjinx myself)!

215. Efi: Is it not true that women dominating men especially in sex, initiating contact and sometimes even controlling the act is a common fantasy and/or preference?

     Of course it is true that people have different sexual preferences/fantasies. Some men like to be dominated just as some women like to be dominated. It all depends on the person. This really doesn’t prove any points about season 8 being too “bro”.

     Efi: Is it not true in the real wolrd that men keep the most significant roles for themselves? What is the percentage of women, i.e. in politics all over the planet, or in academic environments (of which I have first hand knowledge), or in big corporations?

     You’re comparing the contemporary real world with a fake world that takes place in a completely different time and era. You just can’t compare the two. Yes, Bran became king, but so what? By the end of the show, all of the women characters that were still alive got to do exactly what they wanted to do. Isn’t that what’s important here?

     Efi: In the ending of GOT, if you swapped the characters and Jon ended up on the throne, what would Sansa’s role have been? She wouldn’t have been QitN because that would have been Bran’s role, because he’s the heir to WF (that’s what happens in medieval societies). Do you see the problem here?

     No, I don’t see the problem here. You’re using a bunch of “what-if’s” that never played out. Anyone could play this game to manipulate a conversation in any way they want to. I mean, what if all the male characters died and the women all took over? Would that be enough to satisfy the people who think season 8 was too “bro”? Or would they still complain? I don’t really know. It doesn’t matter because that’s not what happened.

     And actually, yes, I think Jon might’ve been perfectly fine with Sansa being QITN if he became king. Why wouldn’t he? The last conversation they had together Jon confirmed that Sansa was the best choice that the North could’ve hoped for.

     Efi: Sansa’s ending in the general context seems gratuitous -a nod to feminists, if you like.

     What WOULD be an ending for Sansa that would make you happy though? If she’s QITN it’s apparently too much fan service, but if she’s not given that title then it would just be considered another example of a qualified woman being passed over because of their gender. It’s set up to be a lose-lose situation.

     Efi: Bronn –don’t tell me Bronn never eats, never has a quiet moment, never sits at home for example

     I assume he does, but why would we want to see this on screen? If you didn’t like the the scene with Bronn having sex with prostitutes that’s perfectly fine, but I fail to see what was so horrible about it or why a scene with Bronn eating would be more appropriate. It’s just someone having sex with perfectly willing prostitutes. This isn’t the Disney channel ya know.

     Efi: Daenerys and Cersei ending up dead as main villains while none of the male characters actually paid for what they’ve done (Tyrion, also Jon, Bronn for being a murderer, even Bran, one can hold against him that he didn’t stop the catastrophe). Honestly, the only male figure that does deserve what he got is Ser Davos. He’s as innocent as a baby, lol. And Pod.

     Well, Dany and Cersei were the only two people trying to win the Iron Throne, so their demises made perfect sense.

     What punishment would you have suggested for the male characters that you mentioned? Jon saved Westeros by killing a megalomaniac and a Hitler in the making. He should be commended, not punished.

     Tyrion really didn’t do anything particularly horrible other than be a terrible advisor to Dany and abandon her after she killed thousands of innocent civilians. Do you think he should’ve been executed for something?

     I think Bronn becoming Master of Coin was a bit much, but it does fit in with the history of the role. It seems like the Master of Coin is always someone who is ill-suited for the job (Littlefinger, Tyrion, Bronn, etc…)

     Efi: it was lazy writing at best.

     You won’t get an argument from me here. I’ve said numerous times that I thought the writing in the last couple of seasons was not up to the high standards that they set for themselves in the first 4 seasons or so. We can agree on that 🙂

     Efi: what comes across here is that all men like female aggressiveness and manipulation, all men employ this type of language when speaking about women, all women offer sex to men when they want something, and all the rest who don’t end up alone and off to see the world.

     Dany was sexually aggressive with Jon (I think it was episode 4), but Jon refused to have sex with her, so that should counter your argument that GoT was trying to get across that all men like female aggressiveness.

216. Lengthy comments tend to go into moderation.

     Efi, I just replied to you again, but of course it’s stuck in moderation purgatory…again.

217. Adrianacandle,

     Ok, since I’ve seen season 7 so many times (I liked it a lot in spite of minor problems), here’s my take on the political plot.

     I think season 7 was good on the political level. While season 6 was all about Jon and Sansa gaining back the North and Cersei dealing with the Faith, season 7 was about alliances. Jon goes to seek for an alliance and delivering his crown is the price to pay. It is not just by himself that he does this. In 7.1 he receives a message from Cersei, that he needs to declare his allegiance. In 7.2. he receives another message from Tyrion. “The 7 kingdoms shall bleed so long as Cersei sits on the throne. Join us and end this war”.
     So, from the very beginning, it’s what the North chooses to do in the upcoming confrontation between Daenerys and Cersei. The North in this context is very important, because the Riverlands and the Vale go with it because of the family’s Tully connections. The alliance of these three was the one that overthrew the Targaryen dynasty in the first place. In the North LF is quick to realize that an alliance of the North with the Targaryen queen will result in the restoration of Targaryen rule, potentially with Jon Snow as a husband to the new queen. LF tries to pull Sansa on his side against Jon and Dany, but she stands behind her brother and frames LF instead, who finally gets to pay for his crimes (the entire WF plot, blurred as it was).

     At the end of s6, Varys has gone to Dorne, and this pays off early in season 7. There’s this council of the allies in Dragonstone with Yara, Olenna and ??? (i forget the name omg I love Indira Varma), and there’s a question of tactics; while Tyrion suggests a more common approach, using the armies, taking over significant targets while closing in on KL, Olenna urges Dany in private to “be a dragon”.

     In KL, while Jamie argues that Cersei has at best three kingdoms on her side and makes sure to secure a part of the Reach on their side (implying civil war in the Reach), she initiates discussions with a notorious pirate, Euron.

     So now the chessboard is set. Daenerys’ army manages a Pyrrhic victory by getting
     Casterly Rock, but Jamie beats them in the Reach and Cersei gets the money and the supplies. On the sea Euron attacks Yara’s fleet and captures Yara and ??? (I.V.).

     It’s looking pretty bad for Dany. Which is why Tyrion points out to her that they need to get Jon on their side against Cersei in 7.3, and it is why she attacks with the dragon in 7.4 and why she burns the Tarlys. From Dany’s POV, the Tarlys have chosen Cersei and by executing them she makes a political statement. Bend the knee or die. That’s the statement. There is no middle ground, and I get it because that’s what’s happening in civil wars. This is also why she goes to the far North to save their butts in 7.6. She needs allies; if Jon dies too, she’ll have no allies.

     To be cont. for fear or purgatory, lol.

218. Mr Derp,

     Oh, good. Mine are posting fine so far today. Perhaps the site has applied rotation with purgatory??? LOL.

219. Mr Derp,

     But that’s just it. It’s maybe twice the size of the comment of your’s a couple of lines. Well I’m going to try the un-spoil route and edit it.

     That doesn’t seem to do the trick. Well just try it tonight or tomorrow then the discussion stay fresh a bit longer.

220. Efi,

     I tried addressing some of your comments to Mr Derp but I think it was marked as spam. I may rewrite and try again a little later but perhaps you’re right, we’re in rotation 😉 I was super lucky yesterday but today? Not so much! So I’m scared of replying to your latest response for fear it will go off into the nether but I’ll try in a bit!

221. Efi, men bad, women good

222. Reek,

     so all the men should have died?
     and what was jons real crime?

223. Adrianacandle,

     So this is part 2, entirely on Jon.

     In the context described in my previous post, Jon’s ambiguous position at first is unrealistic; there’s a civil war coming, choose sides.
     But Jon, no, he doesn’t want to “bend the knee” because he was elected to this office, as he states himself in 7.3 and he, in his perception, does not have the right to betray their loyalty. He uses every argument possible to convince Dany to join his cause, to no avail. Dany is focused on the IT, and Jon is focused on taking Dany on his side.
     This is why, when Tyrion suggests that they have to strive for a truce with Cersei, he immediately takes the opportunity. From Jon’s perspective, it’s not about convincing Cersei, it’s about convincing Dany. Dany is the one resisting his pleas, and Cersei doesn’t get into the game until 7.5.
     And then 7.6 happens and the discussion with Tormund. Note that all the exchanges we see here and in 7.4 have happened before in Jon’s presence. Meaning, someone has pointed out to him before “is it the people/pride that matters the most” or he himself has said the same, i.e. to Mance. Tormund says that yeah, Mance was proud, but we died for his pride.
     So is it this that convinces Jon to finally “bend the knee” to Daenerys? In my view, it’s rather not. Jon might remember that Mance said to him that he didn’t want to drag his people “to someone else’s war”, so in his view, this might be what Daenerys asks of him, to drag the Northerners into her war against the IT (which we see in 8.5), while all along the North had been independent. This is why Jon “bending the knee” at the end of 7.6 comes as a surprise, to me and to many others.
     But Jon in 7.6 saw the full force of the NK, all 100 thousand of them; he also saw what dragons can do. For Jon, in this upcoming war that he has to fight, there’ll be no salvation without dragons. If Dany wants to be the queen, he’ll give it to her, because he put things into perspective. So he calls her “my queen” in spite of the fact that she has just told him she’ll fight him. Meaning, he’ll bend the knee.

     So in 7.7 they all go to KL and Cersei, true to her role, forces out of Jon a public declaration of loyalty. As I’ve said, one has to choose sides. Jon chooses -and it’s Dany. He’s not shy about it, but it is interpreted by everybody as stupidity, or naivete to a fault. They wanted Cersei for forging a truce.
     THEY DID. JON DIDN’T.
     Jon doesn’t give a f@@@ about Cersei. It’s Dany he wants. Dany has the dragons. It’s Dany that wants the truce with Cersei, and the truce per se is not in Jon’s goals, it doesn’t affect the position of the North at all. On the contrary, Jon wants to convince Dany that he’s loyal to her; that he won’t lie, or budge responsibility for whatever reason, that he’s hers.

     (sidenote. It is worth noting that Jon hadn’t gone public about where his loyalty lay until this very point at the Dragonpit meeting. He didn’t share that information with anyone, not even Davos; he wasn’t aware of it, neither was Tyrion, who was the instigator of all this negotiation. This means that Jon may have had other considerations about it at first, i.e. discussing it with Sansa or the lords first. After all, the show made a point that public declaration of loyalty is iconic –and corporal, like it was in the middle ages. One party bends the knee, gives an oath and pledges the sword to the overlord’s service, and the overlord responds with his own oath that he’ll honor the agreement, like it happened before with Brienne and Sansa, Alys Karstark and Jon Umber with Jon, Jon himself bent the knee to Mance and to Bran, etc. -there’s more in the entire show. But Jon was in bed while all this happened, meaning that in legislative and normative forms it’s as if it didn’t happen. It may not have been sloppy writing on the part of the script authors, they might have actually intended that this thread goes somewhere, but we’ll never know).

     And it works. In the end, Dany gets the truce she wanted, Jon gets her armies, her dragons and her undivided attention. Hereafter, she relies on him. And he honors his pledge right until 8.6.

     To conclude, all this, in my humble opinion, is a stunning political plot; it was all in season 7, to the credit of its creators. This is why I am actually one of those who liked season 7 very much.

     This complexity could generate more political developments in season 8. For example, we could have seen any of the below in any combination possible:
     – the lords and Sansa questionning Jon’s “bending the knee”
     – Jon being completely renounced by the northern lords for what he did, making Sansa the political figurehead of the North or even queen
     – Sam communicating with the lords of the Reach against Daenerys
     – Cersei trying to break the alliance of the North with Daenerys through Sansa
     – Cersei trying to find a new ally in Dorne
     – Yara keeping distance from Daenerys, effectively coming over to the North on account of Theon’s good relationship with Sansa and Jon
     – sending Gentry to retrieve the Stormlands, either for Daenerys’ side or for Jon (after all he’s Davos’ protege; instead they made Daenerys making him lord of the Stormlands in a simplistic context of “see what I can do too? I am smart too, it’s not just you, Jon”)
     – Jamie finally becoming lord of Casterly Rock, assuming responsibility, seceding the Rock from Cersei, not to mention what he could do with the Riverlands (meaning, he could arrive with an army; but no, he came alone)
     – add to these potential assassination plans: Jon, Sansa, Jamie and Tyrion and of course Daenerys herself are candidates for being assasinated by Cersei (or kidnapped, as a popular scenario had it, lol)
     – also add Varys plotting in favor of Jon, which normally would have put the lords into the uncomfortable position of deciding among three contestants, not two (again: choose sides, they all had to do it in the context of civil war)

     The point is, that following the thread(s) from season 7, season 8 could have been explosive politically. If Daenerys saw her allies truly faltering to follow her, she’d need to make a political statement to Westeros.

     Instead they made a point -as you said too- that she wasn’t truly intending to do something like fire-storming KL, but that it was personal to her. That was their narrative choice, and to this effect Jon’s denial to grace her with his love was the final blow.
     And to tell you the truth, Adriana, seeing those bts videos as early as they appeared, I wondered if D&D themselves in the end understood who Daenerys is. This is I think the most harsh criticism they have received and I am still not sure I subscribe to it, because after all they know their material, they’ve been working on it for so many years and they loved the books too.
     (Sidenote: of course we need to keep in mind that what is said in those bts videos is the explanation of what we saw on screen; none of it has any relevance to what’s in the books or how D&D understand the story. It’s only explanations on the show, meaning, they may understand the books very well but their job is to put it on screen and that’s another story)
     Based on that last thought I then questioned my own take for Dany, because after all, I am faulty, and perhaps I don’t understand much. I always saw Daenerys as someone threatening to burn cities to the ground since season 2, who has a very simplistic and tyranical approach to justice, who doesn’t hesitate to use her dragons as punishment tools and as weapons. But she’s not simple, she’s clever, she’s manipulative, books and show, so in the end, again in my humble opinion, having her burning an entire city for “personal” reasons is not fair to her character.
     But of course, if the creators thought that she’s a fundamentally good person going bad and just having a moment of weakness, and give that to the audience, then the audience itself will have mixed feelings about the character that is Daenerys, let along poor Jon in show-universe, will they not?

     In the books I believe it’ll be her political choice to storm KL.

     So, that’s it. Too long again. Let’s see if it goes past the purgatory.

224. Mr Derp,

     I’m not using “a bunch of what ifs”. That was the only one to explify a case in point.
     And I’m not even one of those complaining too much about season 8.
     If you want more on the “bros” you might actually ask someone who believes firmly in that opinion. I’m not exactly one of those, mostly because I don’t want to scrutinize it that much.
     Sansa? I think she should have been queen of the 7 kingdoms.
     Her being QitN with Jon in the South doesn’t have anything to do with her relations to Jon. With Bran alive and in the North, Bran is the legitimate heir. Women have no rights to rule with male heirs around. In the books Bran is even called prince of WF (because his brother is king, which makes all relatives of Robb princes and princesses and Catelyn queen mother).
     The argument here would be “but Bran doesn’t want to rule”. Yeah, just like he didn’t want the 7Ks. No can do. With Bran alive in the North, he’d be lord of WF and Sansa would have been his advisor, the one with real power, perhaps, but nominally Bran would have the title. Sansa would have nothing -well, she’d be lady until Bran married, and then nothing.

     I made these modern comparisons because you did, but there is truly a point here, namely, that GOT may refer to a fictional medieval world, but it was made by modern men.
     And what is chosen to be put on screen is those modern men’s choice and has nothing to do with the fictional medieval world of GOT. It was their choice to show the nudity in Bronn’s scene -which was unnecessary, because the girls were talking about the Lannister soldiers in season 7, remember Arya’s sharing a rabbit with them? It could have been girls serving Bronn his meal, we’d have gotten the point. It was their choice to portray Dany unable to respect Jon’s feelings and harassing him in 8.4. and 8.5.
     And all the rest. It was modern men’s choice.

     Tyrion should probably have been at the Wall; you’re wrong about his crimes, he did bring an enemy to his own country; he did indulge her and did support her until after the catastrophe.
     Jon perhaps in real exile beyond the Wall, without Sansa in the vicinity, paying for following Daenerys to end and participating in the mass-murder. Him killing her is the only reason why he’s alive (and not being executed as Dany’s main ally).
     (That would have felt like justice, but it wouldn’t have been so open-ended, would it? and then the fans would complain a thousand times more).

     (You asked me, I answered. Don’t blame me if you don’t like the answers).

225. Efi,

     ”…In the books Bran is even called prince of WF (because his brother is king, which makes all relatives of Robb princes and princesses and Catelyn queen mother.”

     Therefore, Arya Stark really was the Princess that was Promised.
     QED

     #ASNAWP 👸🏻🗡

226. Efi,

     Okay, I had written up a response to your first message but it got lost when my computer froze. However, I think there were a number of weak political plots in season 7, particularly in the North (the Littlefinger trial/ambush; Sansa still being reeled in by LF at this point; the flipflopping Northern Lords; etc.)

     But Jon, no, he doesn’t want to “bend the knee” because he was elected to this office, as he states himself in 7.3 and he, in his perception, does not have the right to betray their loyalty.

     He knows the North doesn’t want to follow a southron ruler but it wouldn’t be betraying their loyalty — as king, this is within Jon’s rights to make these decisions. He didn’t swear to uphold independence but to fight for the North’s survival. However, in 703, Jon is only beginning to get to know Daenerys and she him.

     He uses every argument possible to convince Dany to join his cause, to no avail. Dany is focused on the IT, and Jon is focused on taking Dany on his side.

     Jon is focused on allying with other human forces against the Night King and defending humanity. However, I feel it’s understandable Dany isn’t initially convinced and doesn’t take him right at his word because a) she doesn’t know him and b) it sounds insane. As Dany said, “You have to see it to know. Now I know.”

     This is why, when Tyrion suggests that they have to strive for a truce with Cersei, he immediately takes the opportunity. From Jon’s perspective, it’s not about convincing Cersei, it’s about convincing Dany. Dany is the one resisting his pleas, and Cersei doesn’t get into the game until 7.5.

     I think it’s about convincing both Dany and Cersei. This is Cersei’s war too, as she’s part of humanity, and the more people fighting this threat, the better. That was partially the reason for the alliance between the wildlings and the Night’s Watch and for training both genders in the North between 10 and 60.

     (1/3)

227. Efi,

     So is it this that convinces Jon to finally “bend the knee” to Daenerys?

     I think, narratively, it’s meant to pave the way a bit.

     As I said to kevin, Jon is about unity — and Stannis and Dany were the first contenders for the throne who showed their devotion to fighting the undead threat and defending the realm. Jon has never really been about separatist policies but about joining together. And for reasons I said above, I think this makes sense for the North, which lacks resources and needs help to sustain and grow.

     But Jon in 7.6 saw the full force of the NK, all 100 thousand of them; he also saw what dragons can do. For Jon, in this upcoming war that he has to fight, there’ll be no salvation without dragons. If Dany wants to be the queen, he’ll give it to her, because he put things into perspective. So he calls her “my queen” in spite of the fact that she has just told him she’ll fight him. Meaning, he’ll bend the knee.

     It’s true Dany’s help is 100% needed but I don’t think that’s why he bent the knee. Based on that 706 script direction snippet and the show’s dialogue, I think Jon really believed Dany would be a good queen to unite under — as he told Sansa. This was a person fighting for the same things he was: to defend the realm and make a good world. The only other person who recognized how crucial this was was Stannis, who also wanted the throne. But who also had Jon’s support, as Jon felt Stannis was good for the realm.

     So in 7.7 they all go to KL and Cersei, true to her role, forces out of Jon a public declaration of loyalty.

     Well… I don’t think anybody forced Jon there. Jon freely made that choice. Plus, Cersei would have to have somehow known beforehand if she was trying to suss anything out of him.

     THEY DID. JON DIDN’T.

     Jon wants all the forces they can get and Cersei has a lot of soldiers. The more forces they have fighting, the better their chances. Jon’s got reasons for wanting Cersei’s help.

     and the truce per se is not in Jon’s goals, it doesn’t affect the position of the North at all.

     It kind of does for so they don’t have to worry about Cersei screwing them from the south and Jon wants to unite humanity, that’s a huge part of his arc. Cersei and King’s Landing are part of humanity.

     On the contrary, Jon wants to convince Dany that he’s loyal to her; that he won’t lie, or budge responsibility for whatever reason, that he’s hers.

     I think that’s genuine. Also, Jon explained his reasoning in this episode — the more lies people tell, the less words mean something. There’s also the fact that if Jon lies — in public — in front of everyone, to a queen, that destroys his credibility as a leader forever. Who would trust him after?

     (sidenote. It is worth noting that Jon hadn’t gone public about where his loyalty lay until this very point at the Dragonpit meeting[…]

     I don’t think there’s any hidden narrative or ulterior motive here — if there was, Game of Thrones isn’t shy about revealing this sort of thing and we’re four months past the finale episode. If there was an ulterior motive, it would have been revealed. However, nothing indicates such in the scripts, interviews, BTS videos, etc.

     However, Jon did publicly declare his loyalty to Daenerys and sent Sansa a raven about it. So it happened.

     And it works. In the end, Dany gets the truce she wanted, Jon gets her armies, her dragons and her undivided attention. Hereafter, she relies on him. And he honors his pledge right until 8.6.

     Okay, but though I’m reading your interpretation, I don’t think there were ulterior motives or that Jon and Dany were pretending (manipulating) anything to get a specific outcome. They were pretty transparent one another.

     (2/3)

228. Efi,

     In regard to the plots you’re proposing, they’re interesting and I enjoyed reading them 🙂 Yet, I’m struggling to see the motivation behind some of them. For instance, Varys doubting Dany (and eventually turning on her) as it already happened didn’t seem that motivated. Dany attacking the Red Keep with Cersei’s handy-dandy people shield in place would be no doubt ruthless, holy absolutely, but not an atrocity as KL was. It would be an acceptable way to take the city, particularly if she targeted Cersei and not needlessly strafed the city streets for… reasons. Likewise, with Yara, Yara has chosen to follow Daenerys and negotiated a fair alliance with her. Yara wants to oust Cersei and get rid of her uncle, Dany’s got the firepower to do that. The North doesn’t. I don’t know why Yara would give that up on account of Theon’s personal relationship with Sansa. Yara has no connection or loyalty to the Starks.

     And to tell you the truth, Adriana, seeing those bts videos as early as they appeared, I wondered if D&D themselves in the end understood who Daenerys is. This is I think the most harsh criticism they have received and I am still not sure I subscribe to it, because after all they know their material, they’ve been working on it for so many years and they loved the books too.

     They were aware of the endgame since the end of season 3, they knew where it was going. However, GRRM still hadn’t come out with books 6-7 connecting the threads between season 510 Dany and 806 Dany. I don’t know how much GRRM told them, but from his interviews, he doesn’t plot map things out ala JKR, he writes as it comes to him so D&D were having to fill in much of the blanks themselves freeform. This is why I think they need maybe a season more or so and 805 Dany needed so much more build-up.

     It’s not my impression that D&D thought Dany was just having a bad moment — Dany was committed to her Final Form and the destruction she was doing. She felt she needed to burn the world and begin it anew (“fire cleanses”). I think the idea was stated by Tyrion’s speech and touched on by Young Dragon and kevin: Dany wants to be a messiah, she views herself as a savior and she was a savior in Essos, but she was not received this way in Westeros. The more she did, the more certain she grew in her own rightness and goodness. Thus she feels the destruction of King’s Landing is good. It’s the Utopia Justifies the Means trope. Combine that with an unshakeable belief in destiny and you get 806 Dany.

     That said, I have no earthly idea how this will go down in the books.

     Jon perhaps in real exile beyond the Wall, without Sansa in the vicinity, paying for following Daenerys to end and participating in the mass-murder. Him killing her is the only reason why he’s alive (and not being executed as Dany’s main ally).

     Isn’t Jon in real exile? Winterfell isn’t all the close to The Wall. And Jon didn’t participate in mass murder. He and Davos tried to stop the Northern forces from participating. Grey Worm, an active participant in the massacre, walks free — as do the Dothraki, Unsullied, and Northern forces. I suppose Jon is complicit in some sense that he supported Dany — but neither he, Davos, or Tyrion signed on to a democide after surrender.

229. Reek:
     Reek,

     so all the men should have died?
     and what was jons real crime?

     Valar Morghulis not ābra morghulis. Didn’t dany not already explain that in episode 3×03 🙂

     But we’re not man.

     But in all seriousness, don’t take it too serious and just enjoy talking about GoT here 🙂

230. Efi,

     I hope you don’t mind but I wished to weigh in on the discussion between you and Mr Derp.

     Sansa? I think she should have been queen of the 7 kingdoms.

     Can you perhaps explain why?

     I don’t think Sansa’s faultless in this either. Sansa betrayed Jon’s secret against his explicit wishes, helping to kindle this disaster. They all definitely had their part to play but Sansa screwed up too. True, Sansa had no earthly idea what Dany would end up doing — and neither did Tyrion or Jon. Tyrion and Jon supported Dany in good faith, in the belief she would be the leader the realm needed based on their experiences with her. Even Varys, as he started doubting, could never have known Dany would needlessly democide an entire city without even targeting Cersei — he thought she was going to attack the Red Keep, despite Cersei’s people-shield.

     With Bran alive and in the North, Bran is the legitimate heir. Women have no rights to rule with male heirs around.

     They can abdicate though. Bran passed up his claim to be Lord of Winterfell in season 7, upon which Sansa remained Lady of Winterfell.

     The argument here would be “but Bran doesn’t want to rule”. Yeah, just like he didn’t want the 7Ks. No can do.

     Bran didn’t inherit this position, he was chosen. And Bran ultimately accepted. They didn’t select Bran based on gender but on what Bran is — even if Bran were Branina the Three Eyed Raven, Branina would still be chosen.

     Tyrion should probably have been at the Wall; you’re wrong about his crimes, he did bring an enemy to his own country; he did indulge her and did support her until after the catastrophe.

     Unless Tyrion had a crystal ball, there’d be no way of knowing what Dany would do. Dany has never, ever gone after the people before — she’s made choices and put the quicker route on hold to spare the people. That’s been Tyrion’s experience with her. Dany is ruthless to her enemies and those she views as having harmed innocents (ie. the slave children) but not to the common folk (“The blood of my enemies, not the blood of innocents.”). Dany’s choices are her own — nobody at all encouraged her to slaughter a city.

231. I see that I know the problem on not getting my posts through. It’s being marked as Spam. I tried to edit and add my post and I got the spam message. Does that come because certain words? I didn’t use words I shouldn’t have used? Or is it because of other reasons?

232. Adrianacandle,

     I agree that bringing a foreign invader to a country should be punishable. But there is a big problem here. Dany has won in the end, and her army still hold “her” lands. Meaning that he couldn’t be punished for bringing Dany to the land. That could only be the case if the lords of Westeros decided to make Dany’s claim invalid. Meaning that Yara, prince of Dorne, Robin Arryn etc needed to go in another war with the Unsulied and Dothraki. They all agreed that Dany’s claim was valid.

     Meaning that his only legal crime was going against Dany in the final episode. He did 2 crimes there. The first is, throwing his hand of the queen pen towards Dany. Should that be a real crime? Only if Dany was a dictator. The next is plotting to murder Dany. Which is only a legal crime if it was known. And it seems that Jon didn’t tell, and the Unsullied only saw his crimes when he threw away the pen at Dany, and his bad advice towards Dany. His legal crime was siding with his family.

233. kevin1989,

     That’s a good point. Perhaps it would be punishable if Dany had lost, however — as you said — Dany won and became queen by right of conquest, as did Aegon Targaryen 300 years ago. Additionally, she had the official support from a significant part of Westeros (North via Jon, Dorne, Highgarden via Olenna, and 0.5% of the Iron Islands via Yara) before she took the city so would that complicate her foreign invader status a bit if she had a large part of Westeros on her side?

     Meaning that his only legal crime was going against Dany in the final episode. He did 2 crimes there. The first is, throwing his hand of the queen pen towards Dany. Should that be a real crime?

     I think that would be up for Dany to decide — however, as you said, Tyrion did commit legal treason, if for sympathetic purposes. Tyrion and Jon would both be subject to the laws of Westeros and whatever the reigning monarch decides. I think Tyrion was only tried from treason while Jon was tried for queenslaying.

234. kevin1989,

     I don’t know, dude. I’m sorry this is happening to you, it’s incredibly frustrating 🙁 I had written a response early this morning but that got marked as spam and I’m not sure why — it could have been due to length but I see you’re being cognizant of that by splitting up your posts.

     I’m sorry, kevin 🙁 What if you gave bullet points?

235. How can Nina Gold not win casting?
     She casts practically everything.

236. Adrianacandle,

     I don’t see us fundamentally disagreeing here. I don’t know why many of the things noted in the season 7 plot happened the way they did and why they were never brought to closure in season 8. The closest I can get to is to suppose that they were going for another story, more complicated, in season 8, which they later (over)simplified (by the time season 7 was edited the decisions had been taken).

     I insist on Jon not needing Cersei because he was warned about her by Sansa. He doesn’t really need her and he doesn’t trust her and Jon has said nothing to the effect that yeah, you know what, I want Cersei to join us. That’s nowhere in the dialogs, so this aspect is not supported and, forgive me for saying this but your take stems from your seeing the Jon-Dany romance as the basic driving force of the plot. This it may be, but only for Dany. Jon is focused, and his appearance at Dragonstone on the contrary makes Dany to stray from her goal, which is the IT (well, that and Tyrion’s insistence to get the North on their side). Jon gets what he wants in the end.

     You are also wrong on the lords. While no one forces Jon to be king if he doesn’t want to, there’s nothing that bounds the lords to him either. They didn’t choose him to bring a Targaryen North, they chose him for independence, which is the point of having a king, and if he doesn’t want to lead then the next one in line would be Sansa. In the show they respected Jon’s wishes. There’s a number of ways it could have gone, as I’ve said, and this would include someone pointing out to him that he was a bastard son of Ned anyway, so he didn’t have any legitimate claim to WF. He could be completely discarded, disgraced, and humiliated by the lords.
     So long as there are legitimate children of Ned and Catelyn, Jon comes last in the succession line of the North. The lords could of course discard this also (lol, the middle ages are flexible) and skip the female heirs in favor of a bastard heir, as they did in 6.10. But with Bran around, hm, difficult. If it got known that he was a Targaryen… ah, he wouldn’t even have that chance.

     The exile: well, it’s not far from home. There’s no real threat anymore, the Freefolk are friends. Sansa as queen could let him a couple of years to brood over what he’s done and then would give him amnesty and call him back. That’s soft time he’s doing.

237. Ten Bears,

     Of course she was!!!!
     And Jon was her “promise me Ned” prince-brother!

238. kevin1989,

     Rotation, rotation, rotation. The system is mean. there’s a handful of us now, it knows us and watches us and punishes us in rotation for uploading too much, lol.

239. Efi,

     I insist on Jon not needing Cersei because he was warned about her by Sansa.

     Jon can consider what Sansa is saying and Sansa provides one voice but ultimately, he will make up his own mind, as has been seen in both the books and the show time and time again. In Jon’s first-hand experiences, groups who have been enemies for thousands of years have united against this threat once they see it is real. Even Jaime and Tyrion — who know Cersei far better than Sansa and have lived with her longer than Sansa’s been alive — believed Cersei had joined them.

     I think it’s reasonable Tyrion, Jon, and Dany believe showing proof that zombies are real and they’re coming now would be enough to convince somebody that they need to focus on this, even Cersei. Cersei has a self-preservation instinct — but she’s transformed more and more as she lost each of her kids. A transformation perhaps only Jaime has witnessed. By that time, Sansa had already been whisked away.

     He doesn’t really need her and he doesn’t trust her and Jon has said nothing to the effect that yeah, you know what, I want Cersei to join us. That’s nowhere in the dialogs, so this aspect is not supported

     Well, there’s this from 705:

     Tormund: Isn’t it your job to talk him out of stupid fucking ideas like this?
     Davos: I’ve been failing at that job of late.
     Tormund: How many queens are there now?
     Jon: Two.
     Tormund: And you need to convince the one with the dragons or the one who fucks her brother?
     Jon: Both.

     and, forgive me for saying this but your take stems from your seeing the Jon-Dany romance as the basic driving force of the plot. This it may be, but only for Dany.

     My take (that the feelings between Jon and Dany are genuine, but I don’t recall saying anything about a driving force) comes from the script and show materials. They say Jon loves Dany and Dany loves Jon. It was said on the show, in interviews, BTS, etc. Again, I’m not commenting on the quality of the story they told, I’m referencing what the writers, scripts, and showrunners have said. I can send you a list of these materials, in addition to the links and references I’ve included in my posts of these materials.

     Jon is focused, and his appearance at Dragonstone on the contrary makes Dany to stray from her goal, which is the IT (well, that and Tyrion’s insistence to get the North on their side). Jon gets what he wants in the end.

     Jon goes down to Dragonstone for an alliance and eventually, Dany agrees to help — but not through manipulation or deception on Jon’s part, Dany decides based on her own experiences in 706. There’s nothing in the show or its materials that supports Jon has manipulated Dany to get her to agree, is using her, or is using sex to control her so she’ll do the right thing (if the show is facing accusations of sexism now, they would be tarred and feathered for that). The show materials all say the contrary. Dany decided of her own free will, for her own reasons, to put her quest for the IT on hold in order to fight a threat coming for them all.

     You are also wrong on the lords. While no one forces Jon to be king if he doesn’t want to, there’s nothing that bounds the lords to him either. They didn’t choose him to bring a Targaryen North, they chose him for independence, which is the point of having a king, and if he doesn’t want to lead then the next one in line would be Sansa.

     The lords are bound to Jon because he is their king and to disobey him would mean treason under the law, as it would with any other king/queen. Jon never said he was fighting for independence, he said he was fighting for the North’s survival. Jon has never been about Northern independence. Should the lords want to remove Jon, they can form a coup and overthrow him. If successful, they can choose the next monarch. If not, they are subject to the consequences of whoever is in charge — which would be Jon.

     (1/2)

240. Now my comments are being marked as spam and I’m not sure why T_T Got room for me, kevin?? ;;

241. Efi,

     Jon’s illegitimacy was mentioned in Lyanna’s kingmaking speech and the lords of the North still chose him. They do so because, according to a 2016 interview with D&D (Deadline), “The lords of the north named [Jon] King in the North because they realized he was their last, best chance to survive the wars to come.” I’m not sure what they would do if they found out Jon was a Targaryen but since the North was no longer an independent kingdom at that time, their conflict would be with whoever was king of the Seven Kingdoms.

     The exile: well, it’s not far from home. There’s no real threat anymore, the Freefolk are friends. Sansa as queen could let him a couple of years to brood over what he’s done and then would give him amnesty and call him back. That’s soft time he’s doing.

     Thing is, Jon may not want to come back. Jon has to both live with the fact that he killed Dany — something very difficult on a personal level and something he doesn’t feel is right — and social scorn. It condemns him in the eyes of society (queenslayer, kinslayer, oathbreaker), it condemns him in the eyes of the gods.

     If I recall correctly, the social scorn Jaime received for killing Aerys was what corrupted him. Add to that, Jon has spent a lifetime suffering with the stigma and scorn he received from his illegitimacy but kinslaying is the worst crime you can commit in Westeros, worse than being born illegitimate. I’d hardly call that soft. I can’t see why Jon would want to leave exile — perhaps to see Sansa every now and then, but I doubt he’d stay.

     Additionally, Jon’s exile is at the very place he was murdered.

     The closest I can get to is to suppose that they were going for another story, more complicated, in season 8, which they later (over)simplified (by the time season 7 was edited the decisions had been taken).

     Personally, I don’t see any evidence that they were intending to tell another story or I think there would have been references to evidence of dropped scenes/stories from leaks or from cast/crew. According to the season 7 finale commentary, D&D had completed the writing of season 8 by the time they filmed that commentary, before season 7 aired as I understand it. In your view, why would they change tracks?

242. Okay, I managed to post the rest of my comment and it’s in moderation — not marked as spam! Progress!! 🙂

243. Efi,

     I’m sorry for another comment, Efi! (I’ve still got a comment in moderation) I forgot to include this:

     There’s a number of ways it could have gone, as I’ve said, and this would include someone pointing out to him that he was a bastard son of Ned anyway, so he didn’t have any legitimate claim to WF.

     According to the HBO site and show, Lady/Lord of Winterfell and King’/Queen in the North are two separate positions so the line of succession to Winterfell isn’t really an issue with kingship. Sansa’s and Bran’s birthright is Winterfell, not the North since the North was part of the Seven Kingdoms until Robb was chosen as king — Robb did not inherit this position from Ned. However, Robb was killed and overthrown without an heir. Even if he had an heir who survived (be it Sansa or, as in the books, Robb’s will naming Jon), the North returned to the Seven Kingdoms under the Boltons with a Lannister regime. When the Boltons were overthrown, the Northern lords chose Jon — who they could overthrow if they so desired while he was king but once Jon knelt, they were part of the Seven Kingdoms again.

244. kevin1989:
     Pigeon,

     Sorry for that, I wasn’t meant to be so snappy. Was just a bit down couple of days and I couldn’t get a single happy though in my head and seeing all those negative reactions only fueled that further instead that I hoped that when I came here I become more happy like uselessly. So I became annoyed fast with too negative reactions. And unfortunate I was too late to edit my comment to something less snappy.

     No worries, Kevin, it hasn’t been a great week for me either. Hope yours got better!

245. Adrianacandle,

     And luckily Bran became King before Tyrion and Jon could be sentence. So Bran is the man. He decided the rules.

     Adrianacandle,

     I think the problem is really that my first post is stuck in purgatory but the site still sees my new comment as “almost the same as the previous one”. So spam. But unfortunately for me that previous comment wasn’t added yet.

     And else I would question the mods. I’m going to try again today.

246. Efi,

     I think it’s easier what happened in 8. And that problems is because they wanted to make every season the best it could. Sometimes it’s better to make the one before last a bit shitty but putting everything better in place for the last one. (Horn of winter is shitty for tv but it would have worked for the last season).

     What happened in season 7 final was that the plot was almost done, but the character development was not. There was not much plot left for all the character development. And because those 2 work hand in hand, and GoT doesn’t work if you left the plot out for a couple of episodes, they needed to make the character development faster. This counts for Dany, but some other characters were already done developing like Cersei and Jon. (That’s why I think Cersei should have died in season 6 final and Griff needed to be emerge there, new blood could have helped).

247. Efi,

     I think Sandor Clegane is messing with the site. He doesn’t like when there is too much talk.

     Pigeon,

     It did by a small bit. Hope yours is also a bit better already.
     Big virtual hug.

248. kevin1989,

     No, not Cersei! I love Cersei! I wanted Cersei to die in 8.6.

249. kevin1989,

     And luckily Bran became King before Tyrion and Jon could be sentence. So Bran is the man. He decided the rules.

     Right, which is why they chose a new king at this council in order to make that final decision when the council couldn’t decide on their sentences. And should the vassals (or commonfolk) not like what the king is doing, they may decide to take that risk and rebel and then the victorious side (whether it be the crown or rebelling side) becomes the one in charge (or they decide in whatever way who’s in charge).

     I think the problem is really that my first post is stuck in purgatory but the site still sees my new comment as “almost the same as the previous one”. So spam. But unfortunately for me that previous comment wasn’t added yet.

     And else I would question the mods. I’m going to try again today.

     Is it still stuck in moderation? Would you be able to try rewriting it using different wording and phrasing? That’s what I ended up doing — plus, the post ended up being shorter, so I think that helped it pass the spam filter.

250. Efi: No, not Cersei! I love Cersei!

     Me too!!! 🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾

251. Adrianacandle,

     I already tried that, I even tried to edit it, per sentence. And the first sentence I add I got a spam notification.

     Efi,

     I love her too, the character. But I think her character was not that amazing in season 7 and 8. I loved her in the first 6, but it seems she already expired. Having her gone sooner and having another take her place would have help her character as a whole. (And strange because for Dany it’s the other way around. I found her the most exciting in season 7 and 8. Before that I was happy when her character was off the screen but in season 7 and 8 I loved all her scenes)

252. Adrianacandle,

     So, I will answer this brief one about Sansa, but I don’t think at this point I can answer the rest as I’m preparing for an important professional trip abroad, so the rest will be pending for a few days.

     We don’t agree about Jon -clearly. I think this approach takes away his agency and makes him look like he’s acting on emotions rather than logic. I don’t recall having mentioned anything about manipulation in season 7 (at least not until the sex scene, then I think perhaps it comes into play). Jon has been very clear with Daenerys until they struck the deal at the Dragonpit. He didn’t hide anything from her. I still don’t think he cared about Cersei enough to want to draw her to his side, which is why he declares openly for Daenerys at the meeting. In other words, his need to be a part of this only has one purpose, and that’s to have Daenerys on his side. For him, if Cersei agrees it’s ok, if she doesn’t, then it’s ok too provided that Daenerys comes. Between Daenerys and Cersei, Daenerys is the one who interests him the most. Hence “both” at Eastwatch. Cersei’s only a means to get to Daenerys.
     I don’t know what he’d have done if there was no deal at the Dragonpit. Or perhaps, even if there was no deal, then the weight of decision would fall on Daenerys entirely: Jon would have been clear and honest, having done everything to convince her, she’d have seen the threat, what would she have done if there was no truce? I know it’s a hypothetical question, but it explains a lot about why Jon was so clear at the Dragonpit. His stance at the meeting increased the emotional (bc she was in love with him) and moral burden of Daenerys. (eh, this interpretation sounds a bit manipulative to me)

     Back to Sansa, lol.
     Well, I bet you think it’s because of the Jonsa ramblings, right?
     No, it isn’t. If it was, that would depend on what position Jon would have at the end of ASOIAF. If Martin intends to go all the way for condemning Targaryen rule (which I doubt tbh) then Jon will be exiled or dead (the latter is anticlimactic, he’s one of the heroes of the book and he already died once, so what’s the point of killing him again?) So, no, it’s not because of that, even though a Targaryen-Stark marriage is a desideratum in the books, but that, too, has been done if the books go as the show and Rhaegar truly married Lyanna. Narratively-wise that, too, is rather anticlimactic. However, I need to point out that a Jon-Sansa marriage would be designed to bring peace to the 7Ks after the North-South wars (Northerners-Aerys and Northerners-Starks). In this context it’d be a political marriage. Also with this would go Rhaegar’s legacy: he did plan to institute a grand council, and make changes, as the books say, and who better to carry those through than Jon? I don’t know. Jon’s fate, taking the show into consideration, is obscure; perhaps he too is a grand unscrupulous villain and he’s made for being punished, subverting all the hero tropes, no matter his motivations.

     If we take the ending of the show as our guide, one thing is clear, which I pointed out from the beginning. The Starks rule it all, from the shores of the far North to the shores of Dorne. Of all the Starks (without Jon, bc technically he’s not a Stark), it’s Sansa who has the connections to the South, not Bran. By connections I also mean that she knows the lords and they know her. Sansa as queen of the 7Ks is connected with the North, the Vale and the Riverlands, which is bound to bring stability in Westeros (3Ks out of 7). Bran also has that, but in the book context and in the show context too (which is explicitly spelled out) he can’t have any children. Sansa is a woman, and by marrying any lord would bring a fourth kingdom into the equation. Also, Sansa, book- and show-wise has proved that she is one who cares for the smallfolk, is compassionate and has a mind for administrative issues, such as tedious logistics. In the books of course this is much clearer, where in addition she can handle the lords and charm them by being engaging.
     Of course one can argue “election”! Yes.
     What D&D didn’t get though (or did get but chose not to go that way) is that the medieval elections of kings and queens didn’t stray from the family of the king. If there’s royal offspring, then they are “elected” too. If a royal line goes extinct, then the lords choose one from among their ranks, but even then centuries of intermarriages inside the aristocracy result in the new king being somehow related to the previous dynasty, one that has enough consent. The “election” part also serves another, political goal. Under this euphemism a contract between the lords paramount who participate in the election and the new king is understood; namely, that the king will be honorable and just and defend his subjects and not drag them to unnecessary wars, and the lords that they’ll defend their king and fight his wars and his enemies and be loyal to him.
     This is a feudal contract, in reality, but it’s very ancient and applied all over Europe (not sure about England, though, perhaps someone should jump in). These are the basic principles of election in Germany and in Byzantium. In Germany the lords (dukes and others) met in Aachen, where Charlemagne is buried. They were all still absolute monarchs (absolutism is much more granted for Byzantium than Germany though). In Germany this system comes from the early times of the Germanic peoples, in Byzantium it comes from the Roman past and really has democratic roots.

     What I mean by all this is that electing a woman with high connections because she can bring a fourth kingdom and she procreate would not be out of context for GOT or ASOIAF. Martin knows all these things and Sansa in the books has foreshadow of becoming queen, but not by herself, contrary to what the show has given us. Her fate is closely connected to marriage and children (even though Martin also puts bastard children into her path in WoW).
     Bran on the other hand is connected to the North, and perhaps he’ll become “king of winter”, because the independence of the North is a big issue in ASOIAF (he’s the heir of WF). Even if all the kingdoms secede from the direct control of KL, they’ll probably have a higher authority to answer to, and that authority will be seated in KL. The most reasonable way to achieve this is by implementing Rhaegar’s vision and institute a grand council, something like a senate, where all kingdoms would be equally represented while at the same time maintaining autonomy inside the kingdoms.

     All in all, I think the ending will be the same as GOT, but I think that the producers tampered with the details and the character’s fates for various, “political” reasons.

     Ugh, too long again?

253. kevin1989,

     Oh man. I’d definitely go with your suggestion to contact a site admin about it because you’ve trouble-shooted everything else. One time, one of my comments was marked as spam because it contained the word ‘pen!s’ and when I contacted the site about it, they told me this was why — but I don’t think that’s why the spam filter is preventing your post 😉

     That is so so so frustrating, I’m sorry, kevin.

254. kevin1989,

     Yeah, probably Jon too.

255. Well I try to write it different. The sixth book will end with four chapters. A chapter with the crowning in kings landing, not by Cersei but it’s like in episode 6×10 with that character but then happy. Then we got a chapter of Fire and Ice in Winterfell being crowned, he is the hero because Fire and Ice is balanced. Then we go to a chapter of Fire, not balanced so this will be a sign of a problem for Westeros. Then we got a chapter of the wall falling down and that contains the Ice part.

     My take is that Fire and Ice needs to be both, does the character only contain one of the two it’s danger.

256. It worked but with different words and not so greatly written as my first try. But the point is there. It will be like 6×10 and with the end sequence of 7×07.

     Then we have armies split. Cersei has the crownlands. somebody else has Dorne, the reach and the stormlands, he is a fake. Somebody has a foreign army with only the Iron Island with her. And another has the north, riverlands and the vale.

257. Part 1 of dreams roughly for me. Later when I posted everything I will make changes because I think somethings will be in the beginning of dreams instead of my first though of ending of Winds.

     Dream part 1a
     North prepares for war with the WW. But loses in winterfell. They flee south.
     Dany gets visions of the WW and probably finds the clues Jon showed her, but on her her own through some sort of dreamwalking like she did at the end of Dance. She abandon her quest for the throne for the moment and going north.
     I want to make an edit, I think Jaime will kill Cersei at the end of winds in KL because he got ordered by Lady Stoneheart to kill Cersei to free Brienne. He goes to Casterly Rock with Brienne in the beginning, but later going north to the WW problem.
     Griff marry Ariane and gain love in KL and Westeros.

     1b
     Everything comes together at the trident. Jon and the Starks are in the middle of a clash, where Jaime will save a Stark’s life. From the north The WW come. From the south Dany comes. Dany saves the day, maybe even a God’s Eye moment here to defeat the WW? (roughly 2/3 of the last book)

258. kevin1989,

     Part 2
     Dany is being praised for saving the north. Jon promise to give her the seven kingdoms. He falls for her lies about Griff. The truth about Jon’s parentage comes into play. Jaime being executed by Dany? Everyone going south. And it ends with the clash with Griff. Dany turn KL almost to ash like the show. (ca 100/200 pages)

     Part 3
     Roughly what we saw in 8×06. Dany establish her regime. Jon ends it. And everything after that. (ca 100/200 pages)

259. My changes from my first assessment:

     1. I think Cersei death will in fact be beginning of dreams and the battle of Kingslanding part 1 will be there. She will die there by the hand of the volanqar. It’s Jaime of Dany. Later on why I think maybe it’s Dany. but that’s a crackpot theory I put in another comment.
     2. Dany will leave for Westeros at the end of Winds not arriving. My thoughts about dreams is too short and my thoughts about winds to much. I think roughtly 200/300 pages will be moved what I though was winds to dream.
     3. The crowning of Griff will also be at the beginning of dreams but his plan is revealed at the end of winds.
     4. The wall is down at the end of winds that I am certain of and so is the crowning of Jon.

260. Efi,

     I’m preparing for an important professional trip abroad, so the rest will be pending for a few days.

     Good luck!! I hope it goes well!! 🙂

     We don’t agree about Jon -clearly. I think this approach takes away his agency and makes him look like he’s acting on emotions rather than logic.

     While we do disagree, it’s not just a matter my personal opinion, the show says Jon loves Dany. Just like the show said Cersei was really pregnant.

     I think Jon does act on emotion quite a bit, which the show has also said in BTS segments. He’s not entirely logical. Even in the books, his rescue Arya mission isn’t pragmatic. His Hardhome rescue mission isn’t pragmatic.

     In other words, his need to be a part of this only has one purpose, and that’s to have Daenerys on his side. For him, if Cersei agrees it’s ok, if she doesn’t, then it’s ok too provided that Daenerys comes. Between Daenerys and Cersei, Daenerys is the one who interests him the most. Hence “both” at Eastwatch. Cersei’s only a means to get to Daenerys.

     And in 706, Daenerys is on Jon’s side — before the Dragonpit meeting, before the truce. She already gave Jon her word and Jon has given no indication that he doesn’t believe she’ll follow through with it, especially after Viserion. He no longer needs to convince Dany and Dany isn’t just fighting the NK because she said she would — she realizes this threat is imminent to the continent she wants to rule and the Night King killed her dragon.

     However, upon reflection, you’re correct in the sense that the objective wasn’t to recruit Cersei but to get her to stand down so they don’t screw them from the south while they fight the undead. And now, the North is part of Dany’s kingdom. What affects Dany’s kingdom affects the North.

     Wanting a truce with Cersei so that while they fight the Night King, Cersei won’t screw them from the south, is reasonable. It puts one problem on hold while they deal with an imminent threat. They all risked their lives to secure this proof for Cersei so she’ll back off from acting against them while they fight the undead — and yes, it was absolutely to convince Dany too, who is fully convinced in 706. Why not follow through with trying to get the truce they nearly died for?

     would she have done if there was no truce? I know it’s a hypothetical question

     Unless Dany wants to rule a kingdom of zombies, I don’t think Dany has much of a choice there. I don’t think Dany wants to rule zombies, they don’t listen 😉

261. crackpot theories:

     1. Dany is in fact the volanqar. There is a theory that started in Feast that Cersei and Jaime are in fact the children of the mad king. That makes Dany a contender to be the volanqar. How that plays out in 2.
     2. What if in the show we got another 7×07 kind of scene with a truce. But between Dany and griff after they dethroned Cersei together. That makes Dany be possible to be the Volanqar. But what if after the battle Dany shows her dark side to FAegon and maybe strangle Cersei. It’s also possible for this theory that Jaime is the volanqar. But that it happens at the same time. But the result is the same, Faegon betrays Dany, but not for Dany to know. He does this once she is off north saving the realm. What if he promise to marry her after the war with the death is done, but then he still marry Arianne. Or what if Dany kills Arianne and that makes FAegon betray Dany. Then Dany is off north saving the realm and once back she reacts with fire and blood when the people of KL chooses FAegon side.
     3. Another theory is that Cersei is dealt with by Dany. But FAegon kept “hidden”. Once Dany goes north to save the realm, he takes over KL and his men slaughter Dany’s army that is stationed in KL. That could also be the reason for fire and blood.
     4. Almost the same as above. What if Cersei in fact flee to the rock at the end of Winds and Griff has won. Griff will be defeated by Dany beginning of dream. Cersei takes over again and the endgame is still Dany vs Cersei.
     5. many many options.

262. Efi,

     Well, I bet you think it’s because of the Jonsa ramblings, right?

     In regard to my thoughts on Sansa being queen of the Seven Kingdoms? No, Jonsa has nothing to do with my thoughts here 🙂

     I don’t have a problem with Sansa’s gender in-universe re: becoming queen. However, after the events of season 8, I don’t think it’s something she’s earned (although, that’s probably irrelevant because leaders aren’t chosen based on what’s “fair”). By breaking her promise and telling Jon’s secret against his wishes, Sansa helped cause the chaos that erupted because she didn’t want Dany to be queen and pushed Jon’s unwanted claim. Now, Dany and Jon both are responsible for their own choices — nobody had a gun to their heads, but nobody had a gun to Sansa’s head either and she had a hand in all this.

     In regard to an arranged marriage between Jon and Sansa, had Jon been raised a Targaryen prince by Rhaegar and Lyanna, I wouldn’t see anything at all odd about this. However, being forced to marry after having growing up as brother and sister? Having to consummate and bear children together? On a visceral level, that feels terrible to me but I’m game to discuss 🙂

     Sansa has some positive relationships with some Vale lords but that’s just one kingdom. She has a blood connection to Riverrun via her mother — but so does Bran. Yet, this does not guarantee the cooperation of the other kingdoms, nor is a marriage between herself and Jon the only chance for or even the best chance at peace.

     * The Northerners may still want their independence, for the reasons Sansa gave to Bran — who is also a Stark ruling the 7K.

     * After Daenerys burned down King’s Landing and gave her fun speech to her forces, I think there’d be a good chance some of that Targaryen stigma would transfer to Jon too if Westeros found out his true parentage.

     * If Jon does kill Dany in the books and I think there’s a good chance he does however it happens (whether it’s a straight interpretation of the Nissa Nissa prophecy, what happened in the show, or something else), a Jon-Sansa union will prompt mistrust or even a war with Dany’s supporters.

263. Efi,

     Oh! I forgot to add: I think Sansa would make a suitable peacetime queen but I don’t think she’s the complete package. For instance, she doesn’t have much understanding of the struggles the smallfolk or peasants experience, having never exposed to the elements or facing hunger. Then again, not many nobles do aside from Arya (surviving war-torn Westeros and abroad in Bravoos), Sandor Clegane, Dany (the Red Waste with her khalasaar), Jon (living among those raised as peasants and beyond the Wall), Sam (same thing), and I’m likely forgetting others. We have Gendry and Davos, but they weren’t raised as nobles. We also have noble-born Watchman at the Wall such as Aemon Targaryen and Jeor Mormont but they’ve given up all claims.

     Also with this would go Rhaegar’s legacy: he did plan to institute a grand council, and make changes, as the books say, and who better to carry those through than Jon? I don’t know. Jon’s fate, taking the show into consideration, is obscure.

     But I’m not so sure that the concept of Jon’s fate was obscure. He wants to be done fighting. I think his ending was meant to mirror Frodo’s in some ways — a release of some sort. The pain will never go away, as it doesn’t for Frodo (it can’t be undone), but he doesn’t have to face further pain by being subjected to Westeros’s politics and stigmas and his fight is done. Westeros’s feudalism and prejudices have not been kind to Jon. He doesn’t want to be resurrected by Melisandre per his conversation with her in 609, he doesn’t want to be dragged back into the fight per 604, he wanted to die after killing Dany per the script, but now he can live away from that. In social disgrace and exile, yes, condemned in the eyes of the gods and with the pain of killing Dany, but Jon no longer has to fight.

     perhaps he too is a grand unscrupulous villain and he’s made for being punished, subverting all the hero tropes, no matter his motivations.

     Can you clarify?

264. Efi,

     And the final part! 🙂

     namely, that the king will be honorable and just and defend his subjects and not drag them to unnecessary wars, and the lords that they’ll defend their king and fight his wars and his enemies and be loyal to him.

     Well, this is not the case with every monarch but they still hold power and as long as they’re in power, they decide the law — until they die or are overthrown. At best, when a monarch goes against their vassal’s wishes, they are doing what they believe is the best for their kingdom. The monarch may not think it’s an unnecessary war. At worst, the monarch doesn’t care and wants to do whatever they want. If his lords do not like it, they can attempt to overthrow that monarch. Should the lords win, a new monarch is chosen. If the monarch wins, the lords are tried under the existing laws.

     The most reasonable way to achieve this is by implementing Rhaegar’s vision and institute a grand council, something like a senate, where all kingdoms would be equally represented while at the same time maintaining autonomy inside the kingdoms.

     Autonomy is tricky and while it has pros, it also has quite a few drawbacks as well. I think this goes into separatist debates, I vaguely remember when Quebec was voting to separate from Canada. While it would give them more power and choice and they wouldn’t have to comply with Canada’s laws, they would no longer have the benefits that being part of Canada would afford. For instance, they’d have to start up their own economy, they couldn’t rely on Canada’s resources, they’d have to find their own access to resources and pretty much start from scratch. Which is pretty difficult. So I’m wondering how the North is doing, as it’s not exactly a fruitful and plentiful country like Dorne or the Reach and Bran, as king of the 6K, would need to worry about his kingdoms first before helping out the North should they need it.

     As for the show, I think the producers simplified things to adapt to television but it’s hard to say what GRRM has planned because he hasn’t written the books but gave them a barebones outline of what he intends to do.

265. Adrianacandle,

     “it was absolutely to convince Dany too, who is fully convinced in 706. Why not follow through with trying to get the truce they nearly died for?”

     Thank you for recognizing it. Dany has gone over at Jon’s side in the end of 7.6., but she still wants the truce. I suppose this means for Jon at least that his effort to gain this poweful ally isn’t over yet.

266. kevin1989,

     I think Cersei will be dethroned by a younger more beautiful queen. For this to happen, she has to be queen. If she takes refuge at the Rock and still plays the game she’ll be still queen to those who support her. So this could happen.
     And I think once FAegon has appeared in Westeros, he’s eligible for marrying either Cersei either Daenerys. No matter how this goes Dany’s the slayer of lies. She’ll expose him.
     I think a truce like the one in 7.7 is still possible, but this will mean that whoever is on the IT will not want to take part in the war in the North.

267. kevin1989,

     Yay!! Thanks for sticking with it and managing to post!! 🙂 I enjoyed reading these! Because I’m not sure if the books will ever see the light of day, if you ever wrote this into a story, you’d have me as a reader!

     Re: Valonqar:

     There’s a theory that Dany and Jaime are both kids of the Mad King?? Would that make Cersei such too?

268. Efi: Thank you for recognizing it. Dany has gone over at Jon’s side in the end of 7.6., but she still wants the truce. I suppose this means for Jon at least that his effort to gain this poweful ally isn’t over yet.

     Jon fully believes he’s gained Dany’s support to fight the NK, there’s nothing to indicate otherwise. And Jon’s not just an ally now, he’s a vassal — he bent the knee. What hurts Dany’s kingdoms can hurt the North, as the North is part of Dany’s kingdom, and I’m sure Jon doesn’t want trouble from Cersei either while they’re fighting the undead now that the North is under Dany.

     Dany has every reason to follow through on her promise. As I said above, even if the truce fell through, I don’t think Dany has much of a choice but to fight the NK if she doesn’t want to be queen of the zombies. Dany wants to rule the 7K. The need to defeat the NK would be even greater than the need to defeat Cersei, which she needs to do too, as the NK can wipe everyone out.

269. Adrianacandle,

     The last point. I think it was Martin himself who has said it’s heading toward autonomy of the 7Ks.
     And of course, under the condition of “elected” monarchy the lords are legalized to turn against the monarch if he breeches their trust (the “contract”).

270. Efi: And of course, under the condition of “elected” monarchy the lords are legalized to turn against the monarch if he breeches their trust (the “contract”).

     No, not quite. That wouldn’t be legal, it’d still be mutiny. Lord Commanders of the Night’s Watch are elected and subordinates are legally required to obey. Jon and Robb, both as elected kings, are no different. They still hold power and for a vassal to turn against them would be treason.

     However, if the rebelling side won and managed to overthrow the monarch, then they’d have taken the seat of power by right of conquest.

271. Efi:
     “it was absolutely to convince Dany too, who is fully convinced in 706. Why not follow through with trying to get the truce they nearly died for?”

     Thank you for recognizing it. Dany has gone over at Jon’s side in the end of 7.6., but she still wants the truce. I suppose this means for Jon at least that his effort to gain this poweful ally isn’t over yet.

     Oh, I see. I think you may have misunderstood me when I said, “it was absolutely to convince Dany too, who is fully convinced in 706. Why not follow through with trying to get the truce they nearly died for?”

     I was referring to the wight hunt (re:705 quote about needing to convince both queens) — prior to Dany’s vow to fight the NK. I was not referring to Jon believing he still needed to convince Dany afterward.

     To add, when bending the knee to Dany (and as Jon told Cersei), Jon will be helping Dany take the Iron Throne. Without a truce, if Cersei goes around wreaking havoc on Dany’s other kingdoms, that’s more crap they have to face when it comes time to dethrone Cersei.

272. Adrianacandle,

     – You’re talking literally about experiencing hunger. I don’t know why that is a criterium. Sansa was attacked in KL because the people were hungry, so she knows what hunger can do. She says to Shae “I’d give them food if I had it”. In the show she gathers provisions for the smallfolk, while Cersei didn’t give a damn about them and Daenerys burned the supplies from the Reach. So Sansa cares about them and it is the show itself that made sure to juxtapose these three on the issue of food for the people.
     – She doesn’t just have good relations with “some lords” of the Vale. Robin is her cousin. In the books she’s destined to marry him eventually, but I guess that she’ll stop his assassination by executing LF. In the show she brought in the Vale army and saved the day in the BotB.
     – Jon simply being a Targaryen would secure those allies Daenerys had. In the books it’s even more specific, Targaryens still have supporters. Even if Jon kills Dany, if he’s king, there’s nothing to excuse those allies for holding back their allegiance.
     – In a hypothetical Jon-Sansa marriage I don’t know why people insist on this supposed visceral feeling of disgust. Plus, it comes from those that supported a Jon-Dany marriage and full Targ restoration before season 8. In the show it’s been almost 10 years they hadn’t seen each other. That’s half their lives. In 6.4 he says that he wasn’t playing with them, he was “sulking in the corner”.
     In the books it’s even worse; it is established that Jon doesn’t even think of her as much as his other siblings (even though she’s almost his last thought before he dies). But let’s suppose that this is true, would it be impossible to consummate the (still hypothetical) marriage when they felt comfortable with it, provided that such a marriage was decided for political reasons?
     In the books Sansa is very young, barely 13, while Jon is 17 and eligible for marriage. Martin has admitted that having the kids so young turned out to be problematic once he decided not to allow for this space of five years between the major events. For such a marriage to work in book universe, he’d rather have to insert this 5-year interval not in the middle, but at the end, after everything is settled. So this would be enough for them to get rid of that feeling and get comfortable with the idea of marriage, if there was, for example, an engagement.

     Also, scientifically, a cousin marriage has a bare 12% consanguinity (same genes), while a marriage between niece/nephew and uncle/aunt has a 25%. I don’t understand how people have supported the latter and not the former.
     You know, there was a king who married his niece, daughter of his brother. Their children were all born with significant health problems and none save one made it past childhood, they must have died even before they turned 5. After this the eastern Church decided to impose strict regulations on marriage contracts because the aristocracy tended to inbreed for keeping the land within the families.

     (just saying)

273. Adrianacandle,

     Yes, hope I can make it short.
     A hero has three ways he can go: die, go to exile, or become king. (now that I think about it, Jon has done all three, lol)
     If, for example, Jon is as unscrupulous as Daenerys is. Dany wants the throne, and is bent on doing anything that will bring her to it. Of course there’s other motivations (ie she wants a home), but by killing Viserys she basically takes up her brother’s ambition, and goes from pawn to player. In her path she frees people, but also burns people, overturns the status quo of entire cities messing with their social and political fabric, crucifies people, kills civilians, etc. All is coated in nice speeches about liberation etc., so we tend to cheer for her.
     Jon is bent on defeating the NK. What if for achieving his goals he crosses to the other side? Doesn’t care how many Freefolk get killed, endorses Melisandre’s magic pretty much like Stannis, uses Dany to fight his war, and then marches South with her and actually participates in the massacre of KL all the way through? (meaning not as the show played it, where he left mid-fight). And then kills her. (just to name a few) If, in this quest, he turns out to be her rival for the throne (whether he gets it or not) then one more moral layer would be added to the entire thing, because Dany will have trusted him and given everything to him, but in the end he’d turn against her too.
     Wouldn’t that be a villain? Wouldn’t he deserve whatever punishment he got?

     I wish at this point I could say that Martin wouldn’t go that way, but what if Jon too falls in this category of “you cheered for him” too just like it happened with Dany? And then the lesson would be complete to the readers at least, because on the one hand one may doubt that Dany’s wish to claim the throne is a good excuse for committing those crimes, but none has ever said so far that Jon commits crimes in his effort to defeat the AotD. What if he does?

     This aspect, or possibility, has been noticed in some corners of the fandom. It is mostly instigated by Jon’s ending at the show and by the insistence of some media that this is Jon’s end in the books too. I wouldn’t like it, but I admit it’d make an exciting book narrative.
     Imo if it was like that then Jon would have to be already bad at the end of ADwD so that he returns worse, as Martin has said. I don’t think he is bad no matter what he’s done. But then again, Daenerys’ fans thought that too until 8.5.
     I don’t know.

274. Efi,

     You’re talking literally about experiencing hunger. I don’t know why that is a criterium. Sansa was attacked in KL because the people were hungry, so she knows what hunger can do.

     I wasn’t trying to say it’s a criterion or that Sansa doesn’t care. Traits such as compassionate and having “a mind for administrative issues, such as tedious logistics” also aren’t criteria but would be beneficial.

     I’m saying that knowing some of the issues the smallfolk/peasants/lower classes experience firsthand would be beneficial to a ruler who governs them so they can better know the importance of these issues as they have suffered them themselves. There’s a difference between knowing and experiencing.

     She doesn’t just have good relations with “some lords” of the Vale. Robin is her cousin. In the books she’s destined to marry him eventually, but I guess that she’ll stop his assassination by executing LF. In the show she brought in the Vale army and saved the day in the BotB.

     Okay, that applies to Bran too. Robin is also Bran’s cousin.

     Regarding the Vale, remember when we started having this discussion before in early August? And I wondered why Sansa didn’t circumvent LF to appeal to Robin, as LF’s liege lord? I believe Robin outranks him and gets the final say, as Joffrey and Tommen made final decisions, even though they were kids. Robin is Lord of the Eyrie, the head of House Arryn, the Warden of the East and Defender of the Vale.

     Jon simply being a Targaryen would secure those allies Daenerys had. In the books it’s even more specific, Targaryens still have supporters. Even if Jon kills Dany, if he’s king, there’s nothing to excuse those allies for holding back their allegiance.

     It may start a war with Daenerys’s supporters. Those supporters swore to follow Daenerys specifically, not just because she’s a Targaryen.

     Per Missandei in 704, “She’s not our queen because she’s the daughter of some king we never knew. She’s the queen we chose.”

     If, in their view (as is Yara’s in the show), they see it as Daenerys freeing them from a tyrant and Jon assassinating her, he’s an oathbreaker, kinslayer, and queenslayer in their eyes, not somebody who prevented Dany’s destruction and is a good alternative because he is also a Targaryen.

     Furthermore, Daenerys’s actions support the stigma of madness in Targaryen blood. Daenerys’s supporters may hate Jon for assassinating her but others may apply this stigma to Jon.

275. Efi,

     In a hypothetical Jon-Sansa marriage I don’t know why people insist on this supposed visceral feeling of disgust.

     For Jon, he’s grown up with Sansa as his sister from ages 3-18 (on the show), 3-14 (in the books). He was there when Sansa was born, he’s only ever known Sansa as his sister. For Sansa, Jon’s always been her older half-brother.

     They may not have seen each other in 5-6 years, that doesn’t change this. In contrast, Jon and Dany met in adulthood and had no idea they were related, they didn’t view each other in a familial way.

     As for the sulking aspect, that doesn’t mean they don’t view each other as brother and sister. Not all siblings are close. Many siblings aren’t close. The vast majority of siblings sulk around each other. It also doesn’t mean he didn’t play with his siblings at other times. In the books, Jon has these childhood memories of playing with his siblings.

     In the books it’s even worse; it is established that Jon doesn’t even think of her as much as his other siblings (even though she’s almost his last thought before he dies).

     Jon thinks of her as much as he thinks of Bran, which is with not as much as Robb and Arya but a few more times than Rickon. Half of those times, Jon thinks of Sansa and Arya as “my sisters.”

     But let’s suppose that this is true, would it be impossible to consummate the (still hypothetical) marriage when they felt comfortable with it, provided that such a marriage was decided for political reasons?

     For the reasons I’ve stated above, I can’t imagine Jon and Sansa ever coming around to this idea after a lifetime of believing they were siblings. I think the Westermarck effect explains this nicely. Ditto with kids who find out they’re adopted, I don’t think they’re going to be cool with banging the person they grew up with as a sibling just because they’re not blood siblings. They grew up as brother and sister, viewing each other as brother and sister.

     So this would be enough for them to get rid of that feeling and get comfortable with the idea of marriage, if there was, for example, an engagement.

     It’s not enough to erase how they grew up as brother and sister. Age isn’t the issue for me, it’s them growing up as family and seeing each other as such.

     I don’t understand how people have supported the latter and not the former.

     Because Jon and Sansa grew up with a familial relationship. Jon and Dany did not. They did not meet until adulthood.

     I have a friend who did fall in love with her cousin. They didn’t meet until adulthood. But with the cousins she grew up with, and one is quite hot, she views them in a familial way.

276. Efi,

     While I can’t say with GRRM is going to do or how Jon is going to come back, I wonder what the intention of following this narrative with two of his protagonists going full-on dark would be.

     If GRRM brings your scenario to life, what would the narrative purpose of this be? What would GRRM be trying to say and explore that’s different from what he’d be trying to say with Dany going dark? What would Jon’s motivation be for defeating the NK and killing Dany if he’s now cool with murder and mayhem? He’s just another evil dude who wants the throne now? Or something else?

     Like with Dany, Jon has devoted himself to saving others, risking himself and making sacrifices to do so. Dany has a genuine intention to abolish slavery — she knows what it’s like to be oppressed and she does good work. It’s at the end of book five when she (frustrated with the moral compromises she must make for the sake of peace) starts to think, “Peace isn’t working out, got to do it with fire and blood.” If it goes down the way it did in the show, Dany believes she has to scourge the world to build it anew and get rid of all the crap in one fell swoop.

     Jon is determined to unite disparate peoples against one common threat, including the wildlings who have been walled out — he knows what it’s like to be scorned. However, in this scenario, Jon loses all compassion for those he risked so much to save, he freely participates in mass murder, gives into the temptations of magic he once distrusted, and personifies the stigma of bastard individual who will massacre and now wants the throne. What would his arc be saying in this case?

     And how would this line up with GRRM’s comments on his plans for the ending?

     I haven’t written the ending yet, so I don’t know, but no. That’s certainly not my intent. I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended ’Lord of the Rings.’ It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory. Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire —brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: ’Why is this here? The story’s over?’ But every time I read it I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge.

277. Efi,

     And then the lesson would be complete to the readers at least, because on the one hand one may doubt that Dany’s wish to claim the throne is a good excuse for committing those crimes

     To clarify, what actions are you referring to? Other than stans, I don’t know anybody who says that Dany’s democide was a good excuse to take the Iron Throne. It was a needless massacre.

278. Efi,

     I just reread my messages and I’m sorry if my tone has come across as aggressive! 🙂 It’s really not intended to be! I am genuinely curious as to your thoughts re:the questions I’ve asked 🙂

279. Efi,

     Oh, I think I know the actions you’re referring to.

     I don’t think those all are really crimes. There is some stuff she did that I dislike. In the show, the revenge killing of the nobles to send a message because they didn’t have anything to do with Barristan’s death (although, that’s not in the books). I feel divided about the mass execution of the slavers as it’s not punishing individuals for their specific crimes. Not all of those individuals participated in the crucifixion of the slave children and some objected — but they were all slavers. So I’m divided. I would have preferred Dany seeking out individuals who did all crucify the kids and execute them.

     As for the rest of her executions, I’m good with.

     I think the intended message with Daenerys was the more she did and the more she grew in power, the more certain she grew in her own rightness and goodness and she has a belief that she is destined to realize her vision of a good world. And will utilize whatever means to get it.

280. Efi,

     Maybe Griff is the more beautiful queen, it’s 2019 so it’s possible.
     Old griff: You will be a wonderful king.
     Young Griff: Queen.
     Old Griff: What?
     Young Griff: What do you think of my dress father?

     But wasn’t it not that that beautiful younger queen takes everything Cersei holds dear. I wonder if that holds dear is really about Power. what if it’s about her children. The younger more beautiful queen takes her children from her. Or at least her last child. Now to think of it, do we really know how Tommen is going to die in the books? What if the death of Tommen is the result of Dany or Arianne?

     And I like the idea that Griff will marry Cersei. Can’t wait till winds is released.

281. Adrianacandle,

     Damn I see to have made a typo. Cersei and Jaime. It makes sense with their incest lust. And there was a chapter in Feast where jaime talked to his uncle, about his father who wondered if Tyrion was really his child. And the uncle replied that he told Tywin that he knows one thing sure that Tyrion is his real son. But the way that scene was told was like he was telling Tyrion is the only child of Tywin. And Cersei and Jaime from the mad king. It make sense if you look at how Cersei is. This theory is also backed up with the fact that the mad king had an eye on their mother. People think Tyrion is maybe the secret Targ. But what if it’s the twins. That could mean Dany can be the volanqar.

282. I read an interesting theory, that in fact Arya is the volanqar. But she is the little sister to Sansa. Who is the younger beautiful queen that will cast Cersei down.

     And here comes the twist I’m having in my mind.

     Rheagar chose Lyanna over his dornish wife. what if Griff chooses Sansa over his Dornish wife.

     Another theory is that Stannis in fact is not death and is the volanqar to Robert, who is mentioned just before.

     Another one is that it’s Tommen as a wights who will kill Cersei.

     And I read a nice theory, about the burning of Shireen. It will be the fault of Jon that Shireen dies. Jon switched the babies of Val and Gilly. Mel got the news that Stannis is death and Stannis really died by the hands of Ramsay.

     She wants to wake Azor Ahai again. She needs a kingsblood sacrafice, but she doesn’t have Val’s baby. Meaning that Shireen is the only option left. She won’t be burned for getting Winterfell, but for defeating the other’s. But the prophecy states:
     Waking dragons from stone.

     Jon snow is the dragon, he is azor ahai. Shireen face is stone (greyscale). By burning Shireen she will wake Azor Ahai. Which is Jon in the books. Just a theory but I liked it.

     Another one is that she will in fact burn Gilly’s baby. Which she thinks is Val’s baby. She learn of Stannis victory in Winterfell. She thinks her blood magic works. And that’s why she later burn Shireen to make sure Azor Ahai succeeds.

     And another states when Mel burns Shireen to resurect Stannis, Jon is resurected. And he does the Mercy kill again with Longclaw. And born amidts salt en smoke is done.

283. kevin1989,

     Yes, I’ve heard the Shireen theory! And I think it has some teeth since I believe the burning of Shireen is supposed to happen in the books (one of the holy sh!t moments) — and it would be Jon’s fault. And it’d be pretty tragic. He tried to make sure no babies would be burned, believing he was taking away the incentive for Mel to burn any kids by sending the one away with king’s blood (Mance’s son) while he is sure Gilly’s son is safe because Stannis wouldn’t allow Mel to burn a baby with no king’s blood. Meanwhile, Val knows who the baby at the Wall is and tells Jon that Melisandre knows too, she knows about the baby switch. Later, Jon is horrified when Val declares Shireen is a “dead girl” because of her greyscale and objects but Val warns Jon it is true.

     So if Shireen is used to bring Jon back in this situation, it would be pretty tragic and quite ironic.

     Re:Valonqar — that’s interesting! I’ve long heard about

     the Targ Tyrion theory and this being a reason for why Tywin hates Tyrion but I like this one too. Although, that’d be a lot of secret Targaryens…. Cersei, Jaime, Jon…

284. Efi,

     I wanted to thank you for sharing your speculations 🙂 And I’m sorry for all the questions! I’m trying to work it out in my head and how you may see it as working. At this point, I truly don’t know what will happen other than the info that he’s already shared (I just know what I hope will happen but I know I’ll be sad). Anyway, thanks again!! 🙂

285. Adrianacandle,

     It’s three or four things that mess me up with Dany.
     I think it’s in Astapor that she orders the Unsullied to attack and kill all the men over 12 years of age? It was war, yes, but this is exactly what the Germans did to entire villages in my country. So I know this method and the monumets that build today for these executions are really moving. There you see that when this method is applied, it’s not only young men over 12 years that are the victims, but also children of 8 or 10 years. In reality it’s as if one wipes out an entire generation, and indeed the one that would get or was in the age of reproduction. In such cases these settlements take a long time to recover which may be over 20 or even reach 50 years (according to how generations suceed each other).
     The social fabric of this city is completely destoyed, then she leaves and they don’t know what to do, and social disorder breaks out in the city. When she is in Meereen the Astapori arrive sick and tired, seeking refuge; she doesn’t let them in for not spreading disease. I really felt for them and I was thinking, omg, poor people, but what can she do, it’d be stupid to let them in the city.
     But the thing is in this case that she has entirely destroyed the social fabric of the city and then leaves and allows them to be governed by themselves. Freedom in this case for Dany goes hand in hand with social disorder and chaos, of which she makes sure to wash her hands clean. In ADWD she says that she is not responsible for it and that the Astapori will have to learn to deal with their troubles, if I am not mistaken in this case also an attack from Yunkai. Dany’s at war with Yunkai and the Astapori pay the price of the freedom she has brought.

     The crucifixion of the masters. I have explained in detail before what happens with crucifixion and why I hate it. It’s death by torture. In this case it’s also a mass execution.

     She also allows for a child to be tortured for getting answers in ADWD and by the end of it, I think that yes, Dany decides that the end justifies the means. For her ruling is hard and is only getting harder, and it’s always too easy to use your weapons for geting rid of all the problems of ruling, such as those she faced in Merreen.

     I think like D&D said we were all meant to cheer for her, and many did. I’m far too suspicious of such stuff and such narratives to have bought it. Perhaps I think too much, or perhaps I’m too old, or perhaps it’s my training or perhaps it’s all together.

     Frankly, I’m not sure that if they showed more of Dany in the previous seasons would have resulted in people cheering for her less. If, for example, they had included the child that was tortured, or the command she gave to the Unsullied to kill all the men over 12 years. It’s because of this that I can allow for a small room for accomodating the idea that perhaps not even D&D had really understood the story that I’ve said above in my other comment. But then again if they didn’t understand, why is it that they used the Leni Riefenstahl imagery of Hitler from season 1? (Dany with the dragons on her shoulder) Or perhaps the execution of the young men is far too cruel for American sesitivities and it was excluded? And yet in Europe people are acquainted with such brutality and surely Martin was inspired by it.

286. Adrianacandle,

     Yeah, I’m with you regarding Jon. In the book context and given Martin’s love for narrative diversity I think this ending for Jon would be far too easy to do, and repetitive, since it’s probably Dany’s arc. I thought before the show ended that he wouldn’t go there, but then we saw him going to exile.
     You thought (I think?) that Jon is Frodo, I thought his arc is rather like Aragorn. For me it doesn’t make sense, in the books much more than the show, that he returns to the Watch; it’s as if he’s back where he started. He went there to climb socially from within the ranks, because he didn’t fit in WF and there was nothing for him at home. And in the end there’s nothing for him in the entire Westeros, not just home? He doesn’t fit anywhere, he won’t ever father children, never have a true name and a true family? Even if we suppose that he’ll suffer for killing Dany -which I don’t believe- can’t he just brood over it at home, or in a simple castle as its lord be it away from WF? Book Jon will never suffer for killing a tyrant and a mass murderer, even if he loved her. He might need time to get used to the idea that he’s not as honorable as he thinks, but then events such as Ned having committed treason for half a lifetime just to protect one single life -his very own- are designed to teach Jon that not all things are black and white. So can’t he just do that somewhere where it’s not exile?

     And all this insane king foreshadow in the books, what’s it for? Because he’ll be KitN for what, three months? Or because he’ll be king of the Freefolk? And if he will indeed be king beyond the Wall, why is it so important that there has to be such a foreshadow, spreading over five books and wherever Jon is, spreading even to events that are narrated in KL? Why is it that in the show when Sansa walks into the throne room (I think 1.2 or 1.3) there’s this blue glass pannel above the IT resembling a blue winter rose, which is his mother’s flower?
     I also have to note something that I don’t think I ever mentioned before. The king foreshadow for Jon is not the same as the prince that was promised legend. The prince that was promised refers to the circumstances of his birth. Jon being the son of prince Rhaegar and Lyanna was born a prince (unlike, for example, Bran, who became a prince because his brother became king). The king foreshadow refers to Jon’s future. If it’s just to anticipate his rise to power in the North, then why is it with reference to Robert, and Cersei even after Robert’s death?

     Frankly, for me the show’s ending is not convincing. If all that is for nothing, and the show ending is piece by piece the book ending, it’s not bittersweet, it’s just bitter. Unless Martin can make me despise Jon Snow in WoW I don’t know how he can narratively salvage ASOIAF for me.
     This is also a major reason why I think the producers tampered with Martin’s ending, by still achieving the “major beats”, as they said, meaning, Dany and Cersei dead, the Starks rule it all, but that’s it. Dany’s story achieving such popularity took a life of its own which kind of dictated the show ending. What would be the call out for example if Jon was king in the end, having killed his lover? Or what would be the bullying ST would face if she ended up queen? I think they took into consideration things like that and more that we do not even think about.

287. Adrianacandle,

     Westermarck is so conventional! Frankly I’d go with Freud with such a thing (I don’t have to go far, my family has enough experiences of such attractions, lol).
     And if I’m not mistaken the boys are supposed to be 14 and 15 when GOT starts. I remember this because I was impressed by it. Perhaps it was Catelyn to Ned? “Fifteen years ago you rode South and you returned with a babe?” Or am I confusing it with the books? I’m not sure but I’m not going back there to search.

288. kevin1989,

     “Maybe Griff is the more beautiful queen, it’s 2019 so it’s possible.
     Old griff: You will be a wonderful king.
     Young Griff: Queen.
     Old Griff: What?
     Young Griff: What do you think of my dress father?”

     So I read this this morning and I laughed my guts out. Thanks, Kevin. Truly anything is possible.

289. kevin1989,

     I have no idea who the valonqar will be and I’ll let Martin surprise me. We’re searching for the younger brother of Cersei, but the prophesy doesn’t say its “her” valonqar, it literally says “the valoqar”, so it may be anybody’s valonqar.
     Also, the YMBQ may not be directly relevant to the valonqar; perhaps we shouldn’t be searching for the valonqar of the new queen or Cersei for that matter. The new queen shall take away everything from Cersei, including power, but also her favorite people, i.e. her children, father, brothers (imo the only one so far who fits the description is Sansa because of her relations with the Lannisters). But the valonqar may be just anybody.

     Shireen: I think for sure Shireen shall burn and it’ll be Jon’s indirect fault.
     Azor Ahai: Dany literally woke dragons from stone eggs. Jon is not Azor Ahai, Dany is, and her burning sword are the dragons.

290. Efi,

     You never know, everything is possible.

     Efi,
     Same here, I just wait till winds is finished. Then I look again for other angles if these mysteries are not solved yet.

     And about Azor Ahai. It can be anybody. And I think the prophecy is not literal. I mean Azor Ahai lived long ago, and to forfill the same conditions as back then would be very difficult.
     And we are so fixed that Azor Ahai is a good guy/girl, that maybe he or she is not. So Dany is still possible.

     But what I’m convinced about is that Fire alone, or Ice alone is bad in the end, so Dany and the WW. But combined (Jon) will be good. Balance.

291. Efi,

     Hey, Efi 🙂 I’m in the process of responding to your comments but it’ll take some time as I’d like to do some fact checks, especially re: Dany’s arc. So I’ll respond after I’ve got everything prepared 🙂

292. kevin1989,

     Yes! That’s what I think too. Jon is balance. Jon will be resurrected by the god of fire, but he’ll have lived inside Ghost for a while, that represents the old gods. So it’s Ice and Fire and the old gods that are in the game. It makes sense that Jon cooperates with Bran who’ll be the “prophet” (for lack of better word) of the old gods to defeat both Ice and Fire and bring balance to Westeros. But if this really plays out in the books, there’ll be no need for the Wall to exist anymore, and magic will be forever gone, just like the end of LotR. (one more reason why I think the producers tampered with the ending).

     If you look at it closely, there is no ending to these legends. We don’t know what happens to Azor Ahai, or the prince that was promised, or the last hero, so we don’t know if they’re good or bad. For AA specifically I think he was bad, because he did sacrifice his own wife in favor of his sword. With Dany this aspect comes with a twist, and this is what those who speak against this explanation object to, namely, that the element of self-sacrifice doesn’t exist in Dany’s case. The wife of AA actually offered herself to be sacrificed, but Dany’s husband was catatonic.
     But then again, in Martin’s world, there is no clear distinction between good and bad. We are meant to like both.

293. Efi,

     I do feel uncomfortable with the mass executions and I don’t think they were entirely right. In the books, Dany doesn’t feel entirely right about the crucifixion herself and tries to convince herself it was just, for the children, but she still finds herself feeling ill about it the next day when she’s confronted with the aftermath.

     But I’m not sure if your parallels are entirely accurate. Dany was going after people who were practicing slavery. She wasn’t wiping out the entire people indiscriminately, she was wiping out slavers:

     Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.

     This wasn’t a case of “kill anyone you see above the age of 12” — she is targeting the soldiers and those who have identifications of being a slaver.

     I mean, it’s still mass execution rather than individualized for specific crimes — but it’s not senseless, needless, purposeless killing willy nilly ala King’s Landing.

     As for the wineseller’s daughters, yes, that is dark, unsettling, and it’s triggered by the murder of innocents. She allows the daughters — who are also innocent — to be “questioned sharply” to force their father into giving up the names of the perpetrators who murdered the freed slaves. But again, it’s not senseless.

     But I’m not so sure D&D were being all that kind to Dany. While the incident with the wineseller’s daughters was taken out of the show, the show added elements that were not in the books: a revenge killing (feeding nobles to dragons in response to Barristan’s death) and execution of Xao and Doreah for betrayal by locking them in a vault. In the books, Dany worries if she has the madness, she feels ill over the crucifixion the next morning, and many of her sacrifices/compromises for peace were not included in her televised Meereen arc.

     As for simply leaving Meereen to be governed by themselves after “destroying” their society — Dany didn’t do that, she made compromise and compromise in Meereen to bring peace. And that social fabric was based on slavery. We haven’t gotten so far in the books when Dany leaves Meereen for Westeros, but in the show, she leaves the city under Daario (which is not a great choice as he’s not a ruler) but she didn’t leave the people to fend for themselves.

     (1/2)

294. Efi,

     (2/2)

     As for Astapor and Yunkai, it’s not like Dany went blazing through these cities leaving them without any sort of rulership. I don’t recall Dany washing her hands of this at any point (but please point out to me where I may be mistaken). What happened to these places is the reason why she opts to stay in Meereen, even when she is presented with an opportunity to go to Westeros.

     In Yunkai, Dany did not have the ruling class killed — and the city returned to slavery, starting preparations to attack Dany. In Astapor, Dany did having the slaving class killed and left it with a council of former slaves — but that council was overthrown by Cleon, who restarted the slave trade, seizing highborn boys and forcing them to become Unsullied. She learns she can’t abolish slavery in cities through violence and expect them to remain free and feels deep regret, wondering if this happened because she somehow has been affected by Targaryen madness. So Dany tries to institute change in a different way in Meereen — where she must deal with brutal retaliation by the Sons of the Harpy — and tries to broker peace through compromise.

     While Dany does violently frees cities to liberate the oppressed, she tries to prevent violence at other turns:

     * She is genuinely horrified when Drogon kills a small girl and locks up her two dragons and refuses to kill the hostages.

     * She makes compromise after compromise, forcing herself to tolerate moral injustices, for the sake of peace and sacrifices to this end too: she marries Hizdahr for the good of the people and so Hizdahr has the Harpy stop their killings for 90 days while she seeks peace. She makes a deal with Yunkai for the sake of peace, even though she must let them continue to slave trade, something she despises and which she allows with extreme reluctance for peace. She goes along with various rituals unique to Meereen’s culture.

     * When Daario proposes that they use Dany’s wedding as an ambush to lure the Great Masters and kill them all, Dany is horrified, refuses, and sends Daario away.

     As for the Astapori, Dany is saddened by their plight and helps them at refugee camps. When Dany closes the gates, she did so with extreme reluctance and great anguish but must to protect Meereen from the armies coming to attack. She can’t let the Astapori in or they’ll spread disease to the Meereenese.

     Or perhaps the execution of the young men is far too cruel for American sesitivities and it was excluded? And yet in Europe people are acquainted with such brutality and surely Martin was inspired by it.

     I’m not so sure as I can’t speak for everyone’s sensitivities and North America’s own history involves quite a bit of brutality and injustice. Likewise, I can’t speak to Martin’s inspiration unless it comes from him.

295. Efi,

     The first part of my reply is in moderation! That’s why it’s missing atm 🙂 Hopefully, it’ll be cleared soon!

296. Efi,

     You thought (I think?) that Jon is Frodo, I thought his arc is rather like Aragorn. For me it doesn’t make sense, in the books much more than the show, that he returns to the Watch; it’s as if he’s back where he started.

     Yes, I think Jon’s end is a mirror for Frodo’s in a sense and I think going back to the beginning might be the purpose.

     Maybe the hidden heir to the throne isn’t actually meant to rule. Maybe he is meant for a different purpose — to defend the realm and ultimately, be removed from the realm’s games. Maybe the hidden heir helps bring the start of change, a change that eliminates blood succession (and for good reason — having the blood of a certain line doesn’t guarantee a good ruler). Maybe Jon is meant to be the shield, not king.

     There is text that can be seen as foreshadowing kingship for Jon but maybe it’s not a hint as to where Jon will end up in the story but rather, a hint to Jon’s true parentage and the irony of what he might have been if the Targaryen dynasty had not been overthrown.

     Jon’s story is full of irony (I think most of the characters’ stories are full of irony). He grows up a bastard but is actually the hidden heir to the Targaryen throne. He’s a hidden heir who doesn’t seem to fit anywhere but is to be chosen by the very people who won’t kneel. He dreams of leadership only to find it as a necessary but isolated, lonely, miserable experience.

     (1/3)

297. Efi,

     Even if we suppose that he’ll suffer for killing Dany -which I don’t believe- can’t he just brood over it at home, or in a simple castle as its lord be it away from WF? Book Jon will never suffer for killing a tyrant and a mass murderer, even if he loved her.

     I do think he will suffer.

     There’s this from Kit Harington:

     “This is the second woman he’s fallen in love with who dies in his arms and he cradles her in the same way,” Harington said. “That’s an awful thing. In some ways, Jon did the same thing to [his Wilding lover] Ygritte by training the boy who kills her. This destroys Jon to do this.”

     This from the script, after killing Dany:

     Jon doesn’t flee. He has no interest in avoiding death; he has nothing left to live for.

     And this from the dialogue, re: killing Dany:

     Jon: It doesn’t feel right.

     And I think book Jon certainly would too. He’s killing a loved one — of anything, whether it was right or not, somebody will suffer over that, Jon included. Jon questions his actions, he’s constantly full of doubts, he wonders if he’s doing the right thing, he angsts over Ygritte’s death and feels responsible for it, even though it wasn’t his arrow and Ygritte was a willing part of the army attacking the Wall. He loathes the idea of betraying the wildlings more and more as he gets to know them. Jon prays for something to spare him from killing Mance, as he genuinely likes Mance, even though Mance is preparing an attack on the realm.

     Jon’s thoughts go to his loved ones still in Winterfell and knows he must prevent the likes of Rattleshirt, Harma, and the Magnar of Thenn (senior) from breaching the Wall, but he still deeply dislikes to prospect of killing Mance to achieve this.

     He might need time to get used to the idea that he’s not as honorable as he thinks, but then events such as Ned having committed treason for half a lifetime just to protect one single life -his very own- are designed to teach Jon that not all things are black and white. So can’t he just do that somewhere where it’s not exile?

     Jon has already learned this lesson by ADWD (“I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man’s honor.”). It’s not just a matter of honor — as I said above, Jon may not want to leave exile. In addition to personal pain, he’ll be scorned as an oathbreaker, queenslayer, and kinslayer — the absolute worst crimes you can commit in Westeros and in the eyes of the gods. He’ll feel that on every level. Jaime started declining because he received scorn from society for being a kingslayer.

     (2/3)

298. Efi,

     In the show, per the pilot script, it seems Robb and Jon are both 17. Sansa’s 13, Arya’s 11, Bran’s 8, and Rickon is…3 (???).

     But in the books, yes, I think you’re right! Robb and Jon are 14, Sansa is 11, Arya is 9, Bran is 7, Rickon is 3.

     Then Sansa walks into the throne room (I think 1.2 or 1.3) there’s this blue glass pannel above the IT resembling a blue winter rose, which is his mother’s flower?

     Alright, but what would that mean for everybody else who walks into the throne room with this blue glass panel in view?

     This is also a major reason why I think the producers tampered with Martin’s ending, by still achieving the “major beats”, as they said, meaning, Dany and Cersei dead, the Starks rule it all, but that’s it. Dany’s story achieving such popularity took a life of its own which kind of dictated the show ending. What would be the call out for example if Jon was king in the end, having killed his lover? Or what would be the bullying ST would face if she ended up queen? I think they took into consideration things like that and more that we do not even think about.

     I don’t think they’d change just Jon’s ending and have everyone else’s endings be the same, especially as Jon is a major character. A part of that ending is Bran becoming king. That is straight from GRRM, as confirmed by Isaac Hempstead Wright. I don’t think they’re doing things for the purpose of sparing actors from a potential negative reception. A number of controversial things happened this season that I don’t think D&D would have done on their own if not for GRRM’s ending.

     There’s quite a bit I, personally, don’t like but I think it’s the story :/

     (3/3)

299. Adrianacandle,

     No, IHR confirmed that D&D told him that this was ending. They were talking about the ending of GOT, not the ending of ASOIAF (and I think that it’d be very irresponsible of D&D to have disclosed the ending of ASOIAF, which is basically unfinished, to IHR).

     But if Bran is really king of the 6Ks, then something else is at play in ASOIAF, i.e. Jon is a villain, or Bran is a villain too (Bloodraven as some have speculated), -too bleak imo- or sth else that we do not know.

300. Neither Bran or Jon are villians in the books or show, they are both having the same endings especially for the main players. Dany is the ultimate villain I feel you probably need to accept that.

301. Efi: No, IHR confirmed that D&D told him that this was ending. They were talking about the ending of GOT, not the ending of ASOIAF (and I think that it’d be very irresponsible of D&D to have disclosed the ending of ASOIAF, which is basically unfinished, to IHR).

     According to this interview, Bran as king came from GRRM. I’m not sure why D&D would be dishonest in saying that it came from GRRM?

     “David and Dan told me there were two things George R.R. Martin had planned for Bran, and that was the Hodor revelation, and that he would be king,” Hempstead Wright shared. “So that’s pretty special to be directly involved in something that is part of George’s vision. It was a really nice way to wrap it up.”

     And as an adaptation that has moved beyond the books, some things will be spoiled. In 2013, D&D had met with GRRM to plan for the possibility that in case D&D did not finish the books, they knew GRRM’s intended ending. I’ll dig up some more links if you like.

302. Efi,

     Here is where D&D talk about meeting with GRRM, when GRRM gave them the broad strokes of what he plans for the rest of the series. Some things will be different but I think the endings of each character will be about the same, even if they may get there in different ways.

     “Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with [Martin] and just talk through where things are going, because we don’t know if we are going to catch up and where exactly that would be,” Benioff says in the April issue of Vanity Fair. “If you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we just sat down with him and literally went through every character.”

     “I can give them the broad strokes of what I intend to write, but the details aren’t there yet,” [Martin] tells Vanity Fair. “I’m hopeful that I cannot let them catch up with me.”

303. Adrianacandle,

     “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.”

     You think this prevented the Unsullied from killing children?
     They just killed everybody that got in their way independently of age or tokar. The tokar is not worn by slavers only, but by the wealthy in general. I can’t believe that after all this time you’re still making excuses for her.
     I meant that she destoyed the social fabric of Astapor, but apparently I wasn’t very clear. Astapor falls into chaos because she eliminated the upper social strata, the slaves became masters and then they are overthrown too and then Yunkai attacks them or besieges the city and plague breaks out.
     At some point Astapor sends an embassy to her in Meereen and she says something of the type “I left them to be governed by themselves and now they want me to go save them? I can’t do that”. That’s pretty much washing one’s hands to me, it’s an interpretation, but that’s how I understood it. At this point, however, if I am not mistaken the city is governed by Cleon though and by abstaining from helping them she also makes a political statement. Her dilemma here is to intervene for the people or not, and she decides against it. I read it as political dilemma even though she doesn’t (not clearly) but the result is the same.

     As for Jon, I am not going to watch 8.6 again. I’m fine with the rest of the season, it’s bearable even though I didn’t particularly like it, but somewhere between 8.5 and 8.6 Jon was possessed by aliens, so nothing he does or says there is in character. (was the line you cited even on screen? I think it’s one that didn’t make it)

     KH of course is called to explain his acting choices, he’s not defending either the book or the show per se. I won’t hold that against him and I do think that the entirety of season 8 did a great injustice to his character Jon Snow and to him personally as an actor because he had little to work with. But that’s only my opinion.

304. Adrianacandle,

     “He’d be king” doesn’t mean “he’d be king of the 7 or 6 kingdoms”
     This is what I’m saying. I read the interview.

305. Jon Snowed,

     Thanks. We’re talking literature here. It’s not about the ending per se, it’s how we get there and the complications that arise in-universe.
     I’d go with no one is villain and sth else is at play that the show failed to give us (which would make the ending more rewarding), no matter if it’s the same or different in the books.

306. Adrianacandle,

     Mystery solved!
     Catelyn to Ned, 1.2:

     “17 years ago you rode South with Robert Baratheon and you came back a year later with a bastard child”.

     So, compromise, lol. He’s 16.

     (Don’t pay those scripts that much attention, they’re not the finished scripts)

307. Efi,

     “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.”
     You think this prevented the Unsullied from killing children?

     As I understand it, the Unsullied follow only the commands they are given by their commander and do not go rogue. Dany ordered them to not harm children.

     They just killed everybody that got in their way independently of age or tokar. The tokar is not worn by slavers only, but by the wealthy in general. I can’t believe that after all this time you’re still making excuses for her.

     Do you have a source for this? (re:killing everyone that got in her way) I don’t recall this happening in either the book or the show but I’ll gladly concede if you point out a scene/passage I am missing.

     And the nobility is the ruling class. As I said twice, I don’t feel comfortable with mass executions because they aren’t individualized.

     I meant that she destoyed the social fabric of Astapor, but apparently I wasn’t very clear. Astapor falls into chaos because she eliminated the upper social strata, the slaves became masters and then they are overthrown too and then Yunkai attacks them or besieges the city and plague breaks out.

     Dany tried to do it both ways — she left the ruling class alive in Yunkhai, the city returns to slavery. She kills the ruling class in Astapor and creates a council of former slaves to govern the city. However, they are overthrown and the city returns to slavery.

     Had Dany killed the ruling class in Yunkhai, they wouldn’t be attacking her because they’d be dead. She closes the door to Meereen because Yunkhai is attacking and can’t let the Astapori in because they are sick and will spread disease to the Meereenese.

     It’s because of Yunkhai and especially Asatapor that Dany opts not to leave Meereen and trie to institute change a different way.

308. Efi,

     “I left them to be governed by themselves and now they want me to go save them? I can’t do that”. That’s pretty much washing one’s hands to me, it’s an interpretation, but that’s how I understood it.

     Would you be able to point me to that passage? I believe you but I’d like to read the context.

     At this point, however, if I am not mistaken the city is governed by Cleon though and by abstaining from helping them she also makes a political statement. Her dilemma here is to intervene for the people or not, and she decides against it. I read it as political dilemma even though she doesn’t (not clearly) but the result is the same.

     What happened in Astapor is why Dany can’t leave Meereen now because when she tried to institute change (ie. no slavery) in two cities through violently overthrowing the status quo (one by killing the rulers and replacing them with a council of former slaves; one by allowing the ruling class to live after freeing the slaves), it didn’t work. So she’s trying to institute peace with compromise now in Meereen. Dany’s pretty anguished about the Astapori.

     but somewhere between 8.5 and 8.6 Jon was possessed by aliens, so nothing he does or says there is in character.

     There are things I didn’t like but that’s the story, that’s the canon.

     (was the line you cited even on screen? I think it’s one that didn’t make it)

     Yes, this line was on screen. It was when Jon was imprisoned and Tyrion came to see him. Here is the clip.

     KH of course is called to explain his acting choices, he’s not defending either the book or the show per se. I won’t hold that against him

     I’m not sure what you mean? He explained Jon’s mindset when killing Dany but I’m not sure what this has to do with holding anything against the actor or defending the show or book?

309. Efi: “He’d be king” doesn’t mean “he’d be king of the 7 or 6 kingdoms”
     This is what I’m saying. I read the interview.

     Bran being king isn’t exactly a popular choice — it seems to be one of the things people are unhappy with so I’m not sure why D&D would change this for the reasons you speculated above. Additionally, D&D knowing GRRM’s planned ending and GRRM telling them that he planned for Bran to be king (which seems to indicate the king rather than a specialized king, ie. King in the North, King Beyond the Wall, and there’s no Night King in the books)… this says to me that Bran will be King of the 7K.

     And I didn’t even want Bran to be king of the 7K x_x (although, I can’t think of who I’d want as the ruler of Westeros) but I think this is the story.

     (Don’t pay those scripts that much attention, they’re not the finished scripts)

     I tend to pay attention to the official materials like this as I feel they are the best basis to go off of and give insight into the writers’ intentions with the story, stuff that isn’t verbalized.

     However, because this looks to be the script for the unreleased pilot (they filmed two versions — the first version didn’t work for TV and was unreleased. I think this is the script for that version. It’s quite similar to many things in the first chapters of the books.)

310. Efi,

     Typo! *And the nobility is the slaving class.

     As I said, I’m not comfortable with mass executions, I’d prefer if Dany did confirm their actions, but the noble class is supported by slavery. I didn’t see it mentioned in the books that there were nobles without slaves but I could be wrong.

311. Adrianacandle,

     And I didn’t finish my thought XD;;;

     *However, because this looks to be the script for the unreleased pilot (they filmed two versions — the first version didn’t work for TV and was unreleased. I think this is the script for that version. It’s quite similar to many things in the first chapters of the books), I think there were quite a few changes between this draft and the final version of the script but the feelings/characterizations are the same.

     But I give more weight to other episode scripts as we see only the final version that was filmed with a few edits.

312. Why don’t you folks use the Forum for your discussions?

     All of this interesting debate is going to be hidden under an article about the Creative Emmys. No one will ever be able to find your discussion if they want to read it.

     This is what the Forum was provided for, but hardly anyone uses it. Take your posts over there, you can start different threads for different subjects and aspects, and you never know, you might not have any trouble with posting.

313. Grandmaester Flash,

     Thanks for that suggestion! I’d be up for it 🙂

314. Grandmaester Flash: This is what the Forum was provided for, but hardly anyone uses it. T

     That’s exactly why no one uses the Forum section. There’s no reason to believe anyone will read it or engage in discussion there.

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